#126000 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > That is what Buddha had said that pain and death are not all cause by kamma. What you quoted is about rebirth linking or formation, that is kamma. Not all life ended due to kamma, it could be untimely causes which are not caused by kamma. ... S: Even if death consciousness arises very soon after birth consciousness (the moment of conception), it is still due to kamma. Vism XIV, 114, 123, 124 "When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, then, following on whatever kind of rebirth-linking it may be, the same kinds being the result of the same kamma whatever it may be, occur as life-continuum consciousness with that same object......" ".....again and again, until the life-continuum of one becoming is exhausted. For the last life-continuum consciousness of all in one becoming is called death (cuti) because of falling (cavanatta) from that [becoming]. So that is of nineteen kinds too [like the rebirth-linking and life-continuum]. S: And a quote I always find helpful: "And after death there is rebirth-linking again; and after rebirth-linking, life-continuum. Thus the conscious continuity of beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of consciousness], and abode [of beings] occurs without break. But when a man attains Arahantship, it ceases with the cessation of his death consciousness." Metta Sarah ===== #126001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:31 pm Subject: What I heard. nilovg Dear friends, Someone said that he listened for twenty years but did not see any effect of this. Kh Sujin answered: anumodana, this is appreciated. ******** Nina. #126002 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:09 pm Subject: Re: Is anything "passed along"? (was [dsg] Re: kenh3) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/16/2012 8:50:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: J: Regarding 'with nothing "passed along"', according to the commentarial explanation, accumulated tendencies are passed along and remain until eradicated by path consciousness (at the moment of enlightenment). Could this not be the case? ============================ Sure, it could be, and I suspect it often is. I just think that often it also isn't so, with it merely being the fact that certain conditions occurring guarantee that when, eventually, other needed ones all occur, a result also arises. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126003 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/16/2012 11:42:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I am not sure, but it seems like you are reducing conditionality to co-incidence - that X is always accompanied by Y, or that X & Y always arise together - even if the reason for such co-arising has no interaction involved. That may not be what you mean, so what I say next may not apply, but I will be interested to hear what you think. ============================== No, I'm not talking of co-occurrence. I'm saying that I think the Buddha's teaching on conditionality is that , with regularity, dependability, objectivity, and invariability, when all conditions for a phenomenon have eventually arisen, that phenomenon arises, a.k.a., "this/that conditionality". With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126004 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Hi again, Robert - In a message dated 8/16/2012 11:42:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I do not think that such a sense of conditionality means that they must be in immediate proximity or that the effect of X on Y must be immediate or a property of direct contact, but in one way or another the arising or activity of X must be transmitted to the occurrence of Y for it to be a "conditioning" factor. Would you agree with this? ============================ While I think that "passing along" does occur, it is not always the case by a long shot. I believe the Buddha does not presume passage of substantial "stuff" or information as a justification for conditionality, but describes conditionality as the mere way things work: When these phenomena have been, that one will be. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126005 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:16 am Subject: Re: AN 10.176 (Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life) ashkenn2k Dear Howard Expositor pg 137 <<(1) of the ten, the first seven are fit to be called volitions as well as abstinences; the last three are factors associated with voltions (2)The first seven are courses of actions and not roots, the last three are courses of actions and roots. Disinterestedness, good will and right view as roots become mroal roots: opposite of greed, hate and delusion" It is the similar to the one given by Visud which I quoted earlier to Sarah <> Right bodily actions are both volitons and restraint. Though the roots are not considered the main factors in right actions when it is a volition, it is still an abstinences since it is absent from bad behaviour. By strict definition, the first seven are all bodily actions and not mental. It is impossible to move without a citta with body intimidation as an object. That is why a dead body has no citta. At that moment of a bodily action it must be still a mental citta that arise, but the cause of the kamma is not root that arise with the cittas together with the body intimation, it is the bodily actions that is the caused. That is the strict definiton of the text. So all abstinences that are bodily actions in mundane level are bodily and not mental . KC #126006 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Rob E the act of drinking intoxicants are kamma pattha unless it is for medical reasons. As long as there is drinking of intoxicants it is already a kamma pattha (unless due to medical reasons). We cannot at any time believe that drinking for leisure is not akusala kamma. It is definitely aksuala kamma pattha. KC #126007 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah and Rob K We are talking about the cause of the death itself and not about death itself and the relinking, definitely after death is relinking because of kamma. Please do read the text carefully <>. Yes, the cause of the falling of the becoming, is not exclusively kamma, it can be other causes. Sorry I do not wish to repeat myself, if you think that is your interpretation, I just leave it to you own interpretation. thanks KC #126008 From: "Alberto" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:54 am Subject: Re: qu from Luraya sprlrt Hi Luraya, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > > hej again! > thank you very much for all the answers, which are helpful! > > i have another question. > somehow i am excusing my behaviour by non selfness and that everything is out of control. > i have not experienced that there is no i, so "i" can only try to develop understanding until now it is only a believe. > > for example last night, before i went to bed i got a little hungry but didn't really need to eat, it was more a craving for the nice taste. earlier i would have told myself that it is not so healthy to go and eat now. now i tell myself that it is out of control and i can just observe what i am going to do. i did fallow this craving to go and eat... > now i didn't have guilty conscience cause it is out of control, nothing i can do. earlier i would have blamed myself for not having control over that. > but i feel that i am excusing my behaviour since i have not experienced anattaness and just believe it somehow. > > i feel that is totally wrong understanding of anatta, isn't it? > do you understand what i mean? > > I think that when one gives in to kilesa (lobha, dosa,...) there is no understanding of realities then. But I think that this also applies when lobha is simply suppressed by conditions which don't include understanding of realities (of course the two courses of kamma, and their results, would be different, though only a Buddha would know its details.) Khun Sujin often reminds us that the only way to actually decrease kilesas is by understanding them as realities, with pa~n~na. And the first level of understanding is pariyatti, intellectual understanding. Alberto #126009 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. ashkenn2k Dear Rob E and Sarah S: Yes, exactly. "I wish that political tyrant was out of the way" - akusala, dosa, but not kamma patha. No results. > > And then planning, plotting and attempting to kill, but being unsuccessful would be partial kamma patha, but not complete. > > So different degrees.... R: Thanks, Sarah, that makes sense. K: For ill will and harsh speech for it to be become kamma pattha, there must be a thought that wish a harm on another person. In Expositor pg 132 and 133 <> KC #126010 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:09 am Subject: Re: AN 10.176 (Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life) upasaka_howard Thanks, Ken. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/17/2012 10:20:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard Expositor pg 137 <<(1) of the ten, the first seven are fit to be called volitions as well as abstinences; the last three are factors associated with voltions (2)The first seven are courses of actions and not roots, the last three are courses of actions and roots. Disinterestedness, good will and right view as roots become mroal roots: opposite of greed, hate and delusion" It is the similar to the one given by Visud which I quoted earlier to Sarah <> Right bodily actions are both volitons and restraint. Though the roots are not considered the main factors in right actions when it is a volition, it is still an abstinences since it is absent from bad behaviour. By strict definition, the first seven are all bodily actions and not mental. It is impossible to move without a citta with body intimidation as an object. That is why a dead body has no citta. At that moment of a bodily action it must be still a mental citta that arise, but the cause of the kamma is not root that arise with the cittas together with the body intimation, it is the bodily actions that is the caused. That is the strict definiton of the text. So all abstinences that are bodily actions in mundane level are bodily and not mental . KC #126011 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k sorry correction, should only be Dear Sarah without Rob K thanks KC >________________________________ >From: Ken O >To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" >Sent: Friday, 17 August 2012, 22:31 >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. > > >Dear Sarah and Rob K > >We are talking about the cause of the death itself and not about death itself and the relinking, definitely after death is relinking because of kamma. > >Please do read the text carefully <>. Yes, the cause of the falling of the becoming, is not exclusively kamma, it can be other causes. > >Sorry I do not wish to repeat myself, if you think that is your interpretation, I just leave it to you own interpretation. > >thanks >KC > > > #126012 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, > From: Ken O >To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" >the act of drinking intoxicants are kamma pattha unless it is for medical reasons. As long as there is drinking of intoxicants it is already a kamma pattha (unless due to medical reasons). We cannot at any time believe that drinking for leisure is not akusala kamma. It is definitely aksuala kamma pattha. .... S: Thanks for your reflections. I'll be glad to read any of your many textual sources in support of your comments about akusala kamma patha. From Nynatiloka's dictionary: >kamma-patha 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Both lists occur repeatedly, e.g. in A.X.28, 176; M.9; they are explained in detail in M.114, and in Com. to M.9 (R. Und., p. 14), Atthasālini Tr. I, 126ff.< ***** From AN 10 176, just discussed with Howard: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.176.than.html Unskillful Bodily Action "And how is one made impure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person takes life, is a hunter, bloody-handed, devoted to killing & slaying, showing no mercy to living beings. He takes what is not given. He takes, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. He engages in sensual misconduct. He gets sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made impure in three ways by bodily action. ***** Metta Sarah ====== #126013 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, >________________________________ > From: Ken O >We are talking about the cause of the death itself and not about death itself and the relinking, definitely after death is relinking because of kamma. ... S: Again, I'll be glad to read anything from your good library of texts to suggest that the cause of death (cuti citta) is any different from what was the cause of birth (patisandhi) in that same life-time - i.e. the same kamma. Metta Sarah ====== #126014 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Please read on the Dilemma The Seventy-Sixth, Premature Death in the tranlsated book The Questions of King Malinda. I believe you have the book. Thanks KC #126015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:26 am Subject: What I heard. nilovg Dear friends, (from Pakinnaka, Miscalaneous, 431): Kh S: First we know only the names naama and ruupa. When hardness appears and awareness arises just for a moment, one does not think of a name. If one thinks, that is another moment. When hardness appears there is hardness and a reality that experiences hardness. Question: But there must first be thinking. Kh S: Nobody forces one not to think, we are used to thinking. When something appears through the eyes, it falls away and then there is thinking. It is the same with hearing and the other sense- cognitions.We remember and think. We live in the world of conventional truth and concepts and we do not know the truth of dhamma that arises and falls away.What has fallen away does not return and what is left is just the memory. We are alone in the world, the world of each individual. In reality there is only one moment of dhamma that arises and falls away, it is not self. Dhamma is not theory, it is not in the book, it is what appears now. The Dhamma taught by way of khandhas, elements, aayatanas, the four Truths and the Dependant Origination pertains only to what appears now. We should not cling to words and terms instead of knowing the truth of realities. Pa~n~naa must know all the different characteristics, appearing through the six doorways. Otherwise we only think of stories about realities. Characteristics of realities are appearing. The development of pa~n~naa is a long time process (ciira kaala bhaavanaa). Patience, khanti, is called the highest ascetism. ****** Nina. #126016 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) ashkenn2k Dear Sarah You are right to point out it is not kamma pattha for drinking liquor, I have mixed up the precepts with the ten conducts. It is just akusala kamma. Thanks KC #126017 From: "azita" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:08 am Subject: Re: concepts and what I heard. gazita2002 Hallo Phil and Nina, > > But also panna can have concept as object in a way that can > > condition the arising of dhammas, right? For example, when metta > > arises, has there been a modest degree of panna that had a concept > > (of a person) as an object? > ------ > N: Dhammas arise because of their own conditions. Mettaa arises > because it has been accumulated in the past. It is a reality and it > can be known by pa~n~naa as only a conditioned naama. It sounds > complicated to me that there is first thinking of a person by > pa~n~naa. We cannot know the cittas arising from moment to moment. > The thinking of a person does not condition mettaa, but mettaa of the > past can be a natural strong dependence condition for mettaa now. > As to smiles of non-arahats, no, also smiles of non-arahats can be > conditioned by kusala citta. > ------- > > Ph: Maybe we want to know what we can do to have sati of the moment > of seeing, before all the thinking takes over, but there is no > technique. The shortcut is lobha. But I guess understanding things > like the above intellectually can somehow help to create conditions > for sati to arise naturally. We have to avoid the tendency to *try* > to have sati, but also no trying *not* to have sati in the subtle > wish for sati to arise as a result of *not* trying! azita: Lobha can be very tricky dont you think Phil? Nina, you have made some great points here - I think we all try to 'work it out' by thinking about what we have heard/read and try to fit it in somewhere and then think 'right, I've got it now' but even that intellectual kknowledge cant be hung onto - its gone again in the next moment. Extremely brief moments of understanding quickly followed by lots of concepts and ignorance and clinging to 'my knowledge' I appreciate what you say below about listening to Dhamma etc - its never enuff until arahatship. > Ph:So what are the conditions for sati to arise? > > ------ > > N: LIstening to the Dhamma and considering what one heard again and > again. Never enough! Not worrying when it will arise, it has its own > conditions. I will post some extracts of what I heard. Lodewijk wants > those all the time. Patience, courage and good cheer azita #126018 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:45 pm Subject: Re: Dhs szmicio Dear Sarah, pt and all, > > Question about Dhs matrix triplet 5: > > > > Pali: > > 5. sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa. [997, 1396] > > > > Khine: > > Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > > > > Questions: > > 1) "sa.mkili.t.tha" refers to "Dhamma which are defiled" part of the transaltion, right? > .... > S: Yes and sa.mkilesika.m - objects of defilements (kilesa) L: I remember this from Dhammasangani. samkilittha dhammaa is all those dhammas that are defiled, like all akusala cittas and cetasikas, I think. samkilesika dhammaa all those dhammas that can be object of defilements. Like seeing consciousnes it is not defiled, it is not samkilittha. This is merely vipaka, but later when it's gone it can be an object to defilemets, like attachement to seeing consciousness than it is samkilesika dhamma. This is not just merely terms or theory, this really help to panna to arise when consider even such slight apects of realities. Not all of them are defilements, but they can be an object to defilemets. all conditioned realities can be an object of defilemets even thou they are not all defiled. panna the reality that understand realities can know this slight differents when it arises. This are not merely terms. Best wishes Lukas #126019 From: Lukas Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:15 pm Subject: Dhammasangani - matika szmicio Dear friends: This are first verses of Dhammasangani, the first book of Abhidhamma. Matika starts: Dhammasanganipali matika 1. Tikamaatikaa - The triplets exposition 1. Kusalaa dhammaa - all dhammas that are kusala, all kusala cetasikas and cittas akusalaa dhammaa - all dhammas that are akusala, all akusala cetasikas and cittas abyaakataa dhammaa - all realities that are neither kusala or akusala. like nibbana, ruupas, cittas and cetasikas that are of kiriya and vipaka jati. 2. sukhaaya vedanaaya sampayuttaa dhammaa - all realities accompanied with plesant feeling dukkhaaya vedanaaya sampayuttaa dhammaa - ....unpleasant adukkha.masukkhaya vedanaaya sampayutta dhammaa. - ....neutral 3. vipaakaa dhammaa - all vipaka cittas and cetasikas vipaakadhammadhammaa - all realities that can produce result vipaka. kammapatha, kusala and akusala cittas that are not strong enought to produce result are not classified as vipakadhamma dhammaa nevavipakanavipaakadhammadhammaa - all akusala and kusala dhammas that are not of the level of kammapatha and the rest realities not classified above like ruupa? 4. upaadinnupaadaaniyaa dhammaa anupaadinnupadaniyaa dhammaa anupaadinnaanupaadaaniyaa dhammaa 5. sa.mkilitthasamkilesika dhammaa asa.mkilitthasamkilesika dhammaa asamkilitthaasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa Best wishes Lukas #126020 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:46 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & Alex A great collection of quotes in #125907 Alex, any comments? I've snipped below, but see in full if you missed them. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear all > > Commentary to the Satipatthana > < > Going.The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.>> > > > Commentary to the Fruits of Recluseship 105 - 107 > <<(iv) Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension which does not become deluded about going forward, etc. It should be understood as follows. > Herein, when going forward and returning, a bhikkhu does not become deluded about these actions like the blind and foolish worldling who deludedly thinks: "A self goes forward, the action of going forward is produced by a self," or "I go forward, the action of going forward is produced by me." <...> #126021 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, I have the book in Aus (now in Hong Kong), but I'm familiar with the passage and also the one on the splinter which is similar. We had discussions about these passages before and at the time I raised them with K.Sujin as there seemed to be some discrepancy with what we read throughout the Abhidhamma with regard to cause of death. She was adamant that we always need to read carefully and consider for ourselves. Kamma is the condition for death and bodily experience in all cases, supported by pakatupanissaya paccaya. So I might say the pain I felt when I fell over was due to outside impediments, sickness, temperature .....all kinds of things. Conventionally all so, but in reality there is just a moment of bodily experience conditioned by kamma, accompanied by bodily painful feeling, followed by all kinds of other cittas through different doorways. Metta Sarah p.s Would you like to join us in Bkk next weekend? For a Friday afternoon (amongst ourselves with Rob K, Sukin & Mike from NZ) and Saturday afternoon discussion with K.Sujin. >________________________________ > From: Ken O >Please read on the Dilemma The Seventy-Sixth, Premature Death in the tranlsated book The Questions of King Malinda. I believe you have the book. > #126022 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:08 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Eating and Drinking ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship <<5. On Eating and Drinking On eating, drinking, chewing and tasting, he acts with clear comprehension CY. Here "eating" applies to soft foods, "drinking" to drinks such as congee, etc., "chewing" to hard foods such as pastries, and "tasting" to things which are tasted such as honey, molasses, etc. In each case the purpose is eightfold, stated by way of the standard formula for reflecting on the use of almsfood**. Clear comprehension of purposefulness should be understood by way of that. Clear comprehension of suitability should be understood as follows. Any kind of food which causes one discomfort, whether it be coarse or delicious, bitter or sweet, etc., is unsuitable. Any food which has been obtained by way of hinting, etc., and any food which causes unwholesome states to increase and wholesome states to diminish when one eats it—that is extremely unsuitable. The opposite of this is suitable. Clear comprehension of the resort should be understood as the non-relinquishing of the meditation subject. Clear comprehension of non-delusion should be understood by way of the following line of reflection: "Internally there is no self which eats. The receiving of the almsbowl occurs, as aforesaid, through the diffusion of the air element (resulting from) mental activity. Through the diffusion of that same air element (resulting from) mental activity, the hand is placed in the bowl, the food is formed into a lump, the lump is lifted to the mouth, and the mouth is opened. There is no one who opens the jaws with grease or a device. It is again through the diffusion of the air element (resulting from) mental activity that the lump is placed in the mouth, the upper teeth perform the work of a pestle, the lower teeth the work of a mortar, and the tongue the work of a hand. Thus the food is smeared with the thin spittle at the tip of the tongue and the thick spittle at the root of the tongue. When it has been stirred around by the tongue's hand in the mortar of the lower teeth, moistened by spittle, and pulverized by the pestle of the upper teeth, there is no one who makes it enter within with a spoon or ladle; it enters due to the air element itself. As each piece enters, there is no one who supports it on a straw mat; it remains there due to the air element. While it remains there, there is no one who builds an oven, lights a fire, and cooks each piece of food; the food is digested due to the heat element itself. And when it is digested, there is no one who expels each piece of waste with a stick or pole; it is expelled due to the air element itself. "Thus the air element takes the food up [to the mouth], takes it down [to the stomach], supports it, rotates it, pulverizes it, dehydrates it, and expels it. The earth element supports it, rotates it, pulverizes it, and dehydrates it. The water element moistens it and maintains its wetness. The heat element digests it when it has entered within. The space element provides the passage ways [through which the food enters, rotates, and gets expelled]. The consciousness element, in accordance with the appropriate effort, attends to one thing or another." CY. Further, clear comprehension of non-delusion here should be understood by way of reviewing the ten aspects of repulsiveness in food, thus: in terms of going, searching, eating, secretion, the receptacle, the undigested state, the digested state, fruit, outflow and smearing. The detailed explanation of this should be understood through the "Description of the Perception of Repulsiveness in Nutriment" in the Visuddhimagga (XI, 1-26, pp.372-80). ** - Reflecting wisely, he uses almsfood neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for smartening nor for embellishment, but only for the endurance and continuance of this body, for the ending of discomfort, and for assisting the life of purity. (MN 2/M 1 10). See Vism I, 89-92, pp 32-33 KC #126023 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:13 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Defecating and Urinating ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship < Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:52 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Minor Posture 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship <> KC #126025 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:02 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Minor Posture 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Fruits of Recluseship <> KC #126026 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:06 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Minor Posture 3 ashkenn2k Dear all The Commentary to the Fruits of Recluseship CY. When it is said (in the sutta) "he acts with clear comprehension," in all phrases the meaning should be understood by way of clear comprehension associated with mindfulness. For this passage (of the sutta) is a detailed explanation of the phrase "lie is endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension." Further, in the Vibhanga these phrases are analyzed thus: "Mindful and clearly comprehending he goes forward; mindful and clearly comprehending he returns," etc (Vibh 525/250-51). N. SUB. CY. "Clear comprehension associated with mindfulness": by this the commentator shows that just as the importance of clear comprehension is understood through its function, so too in the case of mindfulness. But this does not show the mere presence of mindfulness along with clear comprehension, for knowledge never occurs devoid of mindfulness. To explain why the meaning should be understood by way of clear comprehension associated with mindfulness, the commentator says: "For this passage (of the sutta) is a detailed explanation of the phrase 'he is endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension.'" Thus, because the passage elaborates upon the meaning of a phrase which mentions both together, it can be accepted that, as in the synopsis, so in the exposition both mindfulness and clear comprehension are present with equal importance.>> KC #126027 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:23 am Subject: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Personal remarks ashkenn2k Dear all I have chose BB translation over Soma Thera because I felt BB translation is clearer. Mindfulness and Clear Comprehension, is both helpful to those who practises the insight or tranquility pathway. It shows clearly that there is no self in the daily actions be it eating or walking etc. The lessons of clear comprehension in these daily activities are helpful for lay persons also in their daily activities which we usually take for granted. For one those who do meditation, the object of mediation is always on their mind. It is not just sitting down doing meditation, it is always constantly in the uppermost of a meditator's mind. It is like what the text has said, anchoring the mind. It use the analogy of a wild animal being tame (I think a wild cattle or elephant) by tying it to a log. It is impossible to seat on and on, a meditator has to do the daily activities, so clear comprehension in non-delusion is important in that aspect. Meditation on its own without insight, will not lead us out of samasara. It only leads to good rebirth if one obtain jhanas. So meditators must not lose sight of clear comprehension and must put it as of equal importance. For one who do insight, clear comprehension has a wealth of description of how the elements works together on our daily activities, thus enhancing our knowledge in the workings of nama and rupa. I take great delight in sending out emails on clear comprehension because it encompasses both pathways, tranquility and insight. May you gain invaluable lessons in these passages. cheers KC #126028 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah There is no discrepancies if we break down causes and results. Illness, weather, wind, etc, and dying from hunger etc are causes and not result of kamma. Akusala vipaka are result of kamma and these results of kamma are due to formations where we live in the plane of human beings. So Buddha and Arahants experience bodily pain because of formations. Cuti citta arise also because it is a vipaka kamma. It does not mean kamma is a cause. Akusala vipaka and cuti citta are the natural order of things when the causes effect its results (aksuala vipaka and cuti citta) Secondly, it does not matter whether it is conventional or not, because when a nama experiences a conventional object, it does not make the nama a conventional nama. It is still a paramatha. For example, under kamma the last object of the cittas before dying could be a sign of kamma (a concept), this means the cuti citta and the rebirth linking citta, and the rest of the bhavana cittas have this sign as their objects their next life. It does not make these cittas conventional, they are still paramatha. Similarly, when a volition like killing a parent, it is a weighty kamma. It does not mean that weighty kamma is a conventional kamma, it is still a paramatha kamma though the object is a concept. Just like when we broke a glass, panna could arise to understand all conditional things are impermanent. Though the object is concept (a glass being broken), the panna that arise understand it as impermanent does not make the panna a conventional panna. The panna itself is a paramatha, and nothing can change this nature. Again, let me repeat, the object that arise with paramatha dhamma does not change the nature of the paramatha dhamma. Objects can influence the type of paramatha dhamma that arise with it, but the object be it conventional or not, does not change and could never change the nature of paramatha dhamma that arise with it. When it is in vipassana stage of nama and rupa, the objects of the nama have to be a paramatha. Because only at that level, the three characteristics could then be clearly discerned and thereafter effect in enlightenment. Let me clarify that I do not wish to discuss whether object of a mundane panna is a paramatha or conventional, because to me, the objects do not effect the nature of panna. So I will politely not discuss this further, I hope you do not mind. thanks KC > #126029 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:36 am Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > Sarah has recently said that intoxication in and of itself does not create akusala unless it leads to akusala cetana, so I am wondering if there is a conflict in these views or not. > .... > S: I don't think I mentioned 'intoxication' but said that the act of drinking intoxicants does not not necessarily involve any akusala kamma. Again it all depends on intentions and acts that follow. The reason that the taking of intoxicants is to be avoided is because, as the quote suggests, it leads to akusala and akusala kamma patha (such as harsh speech or harmful gossip) and 'obstructs the Noble Ones' True Idea' at such times. > > The danger is in the accumulation of the tendency and taste. I guess the question that always arises for me in these sorts of cases is what seems to me to be an association between a conventional activity and the accumulation of akusala. It seems to accord with my usual view that conventional activities are sort of "broad-brush" shorthands for the dhammas involved and that the cetana that leads to drinking for instance, can then lead to harsh speech -- also conventional activity -- which then leads to accumulation of akusala on the dhamma level. Is this wrong? Best, Rob E. - - - - - #126030 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, >________________________________ > From: Ken O > >There is no discrepancies if we break down causes and results. Illness, weather, wind, etc, and dying from hunger etc are causes and not result of kamma. ... S: No, the causes of kamma are the accumulated the kusala and akusala cittas. Kamma is cetana. It is accumulated by pakatupanissaya paccaya. Like dosa which may arise now. We may think the cause is the weather but in fact the cause is the accumulated tendency of dosa, ignorance and attachment. When they are of a particular strength, they condition kamma of the degree of kamma patha. The anagami has no more dosa, no more akusala kamma patha on account of what is experienced through the senses, because there is no more tendency for such, no matter the weather. ... >Akusala vipaka are result of kamma and these results of kamma are due to formations where we live in the plane of human beings. So Buddha and Arahants experience bodily pain because of formations. Cuti citta arise also because it is a vipaka kamma. It does not mean kamma is a cause. .... S: Vipaka cittas are always conditioned by (past) kamma. You still haven't provided any quote from an Abhidhama text or ancient commentary, such as Dispeller, which indicates that cuti citta isn't caused by past kamma. ... >Akusala vipaka and cuti citta are the natural order of things when the causes effect its results (aksuala vipaka and cuti citta) ... S: Yes, according to kamma. ... >Secondly, it does not matter whether it is conventional or not, because when a nama experiences a conventional object, it does not make the nama a conventional nama. It is still a paramatha. ... S: Yes, only namas and rupas in reality. When we speak of weather, in fact there is only ever the experiencing of various rupas and thinking various concepts about these. ... >For example, under kamma the last object of the cittas before dying could be a sign of kamma (a concept), this means the cuti citta and the rebirth linking citta, and the rest of the bhavana cittas have this sign as their objects their next life. It does not make these cittas conventional, they are still paramatha. ... S: Of course. Cittas are always paramattha dhammas! Like now, there can be thinking about concepts anytime. None of this changes the fact that it is past kamma which conditions cuti citta, the same kamma that conditioned the earlier patisandhi and bhavanga cittas as I mentioned. ... >Similarly, when a volition like killing a parent, it is a weighty kamma. It does not mean that weighty kamma is a conventional kamma, it is still a paramatha kamma though the object is a concept. ... S: Of course.... ... >Just like when we broke a glass, panna could arise to understand all conditional things are impermanent. Though the object is concept (a glass being broken), the panna that arise understand it as impermanent does not make the panna a conventional panna. The panna itself is a paramatha, and nothing can change this nature. ... S: Right. However, if the object is a concept (the glass being broken), there can only be wise thinking, there cannot be any direct understanding of the impermanence of a dhamma or of the conditioned nature of a dhamma at such a time. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the point of discussion about death being conditioned by past kamma, however! Lots of red herrings here...:-) ... >Again, let me repeat, the object that arise with paramatha dhamma does not change the nature of the paramatha dhamma. Objects can influence the type of paramatha dhamma that arise with it, but the object be it conventional or not, does not change and could never change the nature of paramatha dhamma that arise with it. ... S: The object, whether paramattha dhamma or concept, is only a condition for the citta and cetasikas which experience it by being object condition. Yes, it doesn't change the paramattha dhammas that experience it. Let's be accurate here - they don't arise with it, they experience it. For example, if it's a rupa, such as sound, it has already arisen before hearing experiences it. The hearing is conditioned by past kamma. If it's a concept, it never arises, it's just thought about. Again, seems like another topic and not relevant to my past message, but that's fine...... ... >When it is in vipassana stage of nama and rupa, the objects of the nama have to be a paramatha. Because only at that level, the three characteristics could then be clearly discerned and thereafter effect in enlightenment. ... S: OK, this is another discussion about what is directly known at which stages of vipassana nana. ... >Let me clarify that I do not wish to discuss whether object of a mundane panna is a paramatha or conventional, because to me, the objects do not effect the nature of panna. So I will politely not discuss this further, I hope you do not mind. ... S: I wasn't discussing this topic at all. I was only discussing the cause of bodily experiences, bodily painful feeling and death consciousness. Anything else is a red herring as far as I'm concerned:-) So show me your Abhidhamma quotes on the cause of vipaka cittas as being any different from those I've given, otherwise we can lay it to rest! Metta Sarah ======= #126031 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:51 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, I haven't read them here (I've read satipatthana commentary a while ago so I remember some things). I do agree that understanding is crucial, anatta and all that. When it comes to some parts, I prefer more modern terminology. This is good reminder though. With best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Ken O & Alex > > A great collection of quotes in #125907 > > Alex, any comments? I've snipped below, but see in full if you missed them. > > Metta > > Sarah > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > > Dear all > > > > Commentary to the Satipatthana > > < > > > Going.The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.>> > > > > > > Commentary to the Fruits of Recluseship 105 - 107 > > <<(iv) Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension which does not become deluded about going forward, etc. It should be understood as follows. > > Herein, when going forward and returning, a bhikkhu does not become deluded about these actions like the blind and foolish worldling who deludedly thinks: "A self goes forward, the action of going forward is produced by a self," or "I go forward, the action of going forward is produced by me." <...> > #126032 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah S: So show me your Abhidhamma quotes on the cause of vipaka cittas as being any different from those K: Buddha has said it is not all due to kamma. Abhidhamma does not contradict what Buddha said because it classified cuti citta and aksuala vipaka citta as resultants and not as causes. Just like a noble one who is killed by bandit which is not due to past kamma, experience pain as a result of akusala vipaka citta. But the cause may not due to past kamma. Our differences in the interpretation of the Abhidhamma texs. Just like the interpretation of paccaya. Paccaya are the web of the spider that helps to capture its food but it is not the spider that makes the web. It is dhamma that makes the web while paccaya as the support. If paccaya is the cause, then there will be no end to salvation. Supramundane cuts off the latency and kamma for Arahant, and if paccaya is a cause, then the Arahant cannot reach last stage of rebirt. Just like object paccaya, it is the dhamma that arise that make an experience of craving for it and not object paccaya, the paccaya becomes a strong support for the cause, but it is not a cause. Paccaya are connectors or linkage forces and not causes. I leave to you on your interpretation. >S: Right. However, if the object is a concept (the glass being broken), there can only be wise thinking, there cannot be any direct understanding of the impermanence of a dhamma or of the conditioned nature of a dhamma at such a time. K: I leave it to your interpretation of the text. thank you KC #126033 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Cetana is not measured in severity by just because this is done by mind door or this is done by body door. A kamma severity is measured by effort and the object being acted on. Using the example just now, this person kills the criminal and since the criminal is of less virtue, the kamma is not as bad as the criminal who kill the person who holds the five precepts deligently. Thanks for clarifying some of the interesting complexity of this topic. I can see from this that there are a number of factors that influence the degree of kamma. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126034 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ------- > S: Nina quoted the following for Rob E and I thought it might have touched on the discussions about the blind monk ------- KH: I defer to you and Nina on that. The quote refers to "pairs of results" but I can't even see what those pairs are. Is it showing that each Patimokkha rule has both a paramattha result and a pannatti result? --------------- > S: and whether his development of satipatthana was of any relevance. --------------- KH: I wonder what relevance the sutta would have if it was about a monk who had *not* developed satipatthana. It would be telling us that outwardly observed activities are insufficient to determine a person's inner motives. But most of us knew that already - before we ever heard the Dhamma. I was saying to Rob E that an ariyan could not possibly be responsible for the death of a caterpillar no matter what the conventional evidence might be. Even if the conventional evidence seemed irrefutable and damning we could still be assured that an ariyan's behaviour was totally free of akusala kamma-patha. I think you and I disagree in our assessment of the conventional evidence against the monk. I find it compelling - I can't imagine how a blind person could choose to walk down a path in those circumstances without intending to put living beings at risk. And I think - or suggest as a possibility - that the sutta wanted us to see it that way. I suggest the suta was meant to make us to marvel at the Dhamma. We were meant to marvel at how the ariyan path made akusala kamma-patha impossible in any, and every, situation. To give a totally ridiculous example: an ariyan could be blowing people to bits with a machine gun while shouting "Die scum!" and he would still be totally free of akusala kamma-patha. We can't imagine how that situation could ever arise but, we must admit, that would be the case if it did. -------------------- > S: I'm wondering if you can formulate any question(s) for us to raise with K.Sujin when we go to Bkk next week with regard to your concerns in this regard. --------------------- KH: Thanks for asking, but I am wondering that too. :-) Will I ever be able to formulate a sensible question for K Sujin? So far they have all been less than sensible like "Is there smelling now?" I am tempted to ask how the Patimokkha rules could have conventional results. There are only dhammas - no conventional reality - and so no conventional results. It's a silly question because we all (at dsg) know there ultimately no conventional results. But I still wonder why we bother talking about them. There is no control, and therefore there can never be any efficacy whatsoever! in a rule. But to answer your question, no questions for K Sujin yet, thank you . . . just the usual foggy thinking. Ken H > > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results that the > > Observances were enjoined on his disciples by the Tathgata. What two? > > The excellence and well-being of the Order... > > The control of ill-conditioned monks and the comfort of good monks... > > The restraint, in this very life, of the savas, guilt, faults, fears > > and unprofitable states: and the protection against the same in a > > future life. > > Out of compassion for householders, and to uproot the factions of the > > evilly disposed... > > To give confidence to believers, and for the betterment of believers... > > To establish true Dhamma, for the support of the Discipline... > > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results.... > > ---------- > #126035 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > K: Buddha has said it is not all due to kamma. Abhidhamma does not contradict what Buddha said because it classified cuti citta and aksuala vipaka citta as resultants and not as causes. Just like a noble one who is killed by bandit which is not due to past kamma, experience pain as a result of akusala vipaka citta. But the cause may not due to past kamma. .... S: I referred to kamma and natural decisive support condition as conditioning birth, bhavanga cittas, death, painful bodily feeling and other vipaka cittas: Vism XVII, 147: "When this nineteen fold kamma-resultant consciousness occurs thus in rebirth-linking, it does so by means of kamma in two ways; for according to the way in which the kamma that generates it occurs, the kamma can be its condition both as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, since this is said: 'Profitable....[and] unprofitable kamma is a condition, as decisive support condition, for [its] result' (P.tn. 1, 167 and 169)." 121, 122 "Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated [kinds of mundane resultant consciousness] actually has formations as its condition?'. - Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this consciousness is kamma-result, and kamma-rsult does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant consciousness [vipaka cittas] would arise in all kinds of beings, and they do not do so. This is how it should be known that such consciousness has formations as its condition. "But which kind of consciousness has which kind of formations as its condition? "Firstly, the folowing sixteen kinds arise with the sense-sphere formation of merit as condition: the five profitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness, and in the case of mind-consciousness one kind of mind element and two kinds of mind-consciousness element, and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant, according as it is said: 'Owing to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness' (Dhs #431), 'ear-, nose-, tongue, body-consciousness' (Dhs #443), 'resultant mind element arises' (Dhs #455)........ "There are five kinds of resultant fine-material-sphere consciousness with the fine-material-sphere formation of merit as condition, according as it is said" 'owing to that same profitable kamma of the fine-material sphere having been performed....he enters upon and dwells in the resultant first jhana...fifth jhana' (Dhs #499). "There are seven kinds of consciousness with the formation of demerit: the five unprofitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness......'Because of unprofitable kamma......resultant eye-consciousness....body-consciousness....... etc' S: And so it continues...... all vipaka cittas due to profitable and unprofitable kamma..... Lots more under 'Dependent Origination', Ch XVII. Metta Sarah ===== #126036 From: KC Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah As I said, formations are all resultants and not causes. What you quotes are just supported what I have said. What you quote are kamma that cause the resultant. Kamma is one of the causes as said by Buddha and not all causes are kamma. Cheers and thanks for helping to find the text. From KC On 19 Aug, 2012, at 2:03 PM, "sarah" wrote: > Dear Ken O, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > K: Buddha has said it is not all due to kamma. Abhidhamma does not contradict what Buddha said because it classified cuti citta and aksuala vipaka citta as resultants and not as causes. Just like a noble one who is killed by bandit which is not due to past kamma, experience pain as a result of akusala vipaka citta. But the cause may not due to past kamma. .... > S: I referred to kamma and natural decisive support condition as conditioning birth, bhavanga cittas, death, painful bodily feeling and other vipaka cittas: > > Vism XVII, 147: > > "When this nineteen fold kamma-resultant consciousness occurs thus in rebirth-linking, it does so by means of kamma in two ways; for according to the way in which the kamma that generates it occurs, the kamma can be its condition both as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, since this is said: 'Profitable....[and] unprofitable kamma is a condition, as decisive support condition, for [its] result' (P.tn. 1, 167 and 169)." > > 121, 122 > "Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated [kinds of mundane resultant consciousness] actually has formations as its condition?'. - Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this consciousness is kamma-result, and kamma-rsult does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant consciousness [vipaka cittas] would arise in all kinds of beings, and they do not do so. This is how it should be known that such consciousness has formations as its condition. > > "But which kind of consciousness has which kind of formations as its condition? > > "Firstly, the folowing sixteen kinds arise with the sense-sphere formation of merit as condition: the five profitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness, and in the case of mind-consciousness one kind of mind element and two kinds of mind-consciousness element, and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant, according as it is said: 'Owing to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness' (Dhs #431), 'ear-, nose-, tongue, body-consciousness' (Dhs #443), 'resultant mind element arises' (Dhs #455)........ > > "There are five kinds of resultant fine-material-sphere consciousness with the fine-material-sphere formation of merit as condition, according as it is said" 'owing to that same profitable kamma of the fine-material sphere having been performed....he enters upon and dwells in the resultant first jhana...fifth jhana' (Dhs #499). > > "There are seven kinds of consciousness with the formation of demerit: the five unprofitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness......'Because of unprofitable kamma......resultant eye-consciousness....body-consciousness....... etc' > > S: And so it continues...... all vipaka cittas due to profitable and unprofitable kamma..... > > Lots more under 'Dependent Origination', Ch XVII. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > > #126037 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, >________________________________ > From: KC >As I said, formations are all resultants and not causes. ... S: Ken, formations (sankhara) are the kusala and akusala kamma (cetana) - causes, not results. >> "There are seven kinds of consciousness with the formation of demerit as condition: the five unprofitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness......'Because of unprofitable kamma......resultant eye-consciousness....body-consciousness....... etc' >> >> S: And so it continues...... all vipaka cittas due to profitable and unprofitable kamma..... .... >What you quotes are just supported what I have said. What you quote are kamma that cause the resultant. Kamma is one of the causes as said by Buddha and not all causes are kamma. > >Cheers and thanks for helping to find the text. .... S: I read the quotes as saying that kamma is the cause of kamma-resultant cittas (vipaka cittas), such as birth, death, body-consciousness and so on with the support of (nature) decisive support condition which is the way that all such formations are accumulated. >> Vism XVII, 147: >> >> "When this nineteen fold kamma-resultant consciousness occurs thus in rebirth-linking, it does so by means of kamma in two ways; for according to the way in which the kamma that generates it occurs, the kamma can be its condition both as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, since this is said: 'Profitable....[and] unprofitable kamma is a condition, as decisive support condition, for [its] result' (P.tn. 1, 167 and 169)." >> >> 121, 122 >> "Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated [kinds of mundane resultant consciousness] actually has formations as its condition?'. - Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this consciousness is kamma-result, and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant consciousness [vipaka cittas] would arise in all kinds of beings, and they do not do so. This is how it should be known that such consciousness has formations as its condition. ... S: Thx for the chance to discuss these texts together. I appreciate your keen interest. Metta Sarah ===== #126038 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Dispeller of Delusion pg 233 (2) The Three Times 894. After knowing this, again. Its roots are ignorance and craving, its times are three as past and so on, To which there properly belong two, eight and two from its factors. 895. The two things, ignorance and craving, should be understood as the root of this Wheel of Existence. As deriving from the past, ignorance is its root and feeling its end; and, as continuing into the future, craving is its root and ageing-and-death its end; thus it is twofold. 896, Herein, the first is stated by way of one whose habit (carita, "temperament") is [wrong] views, and the second by way of one whose habit is craving. For ignorance is leader in the round of rebirths for those whose habit is [wrong] views, and craving is that for those whose habit is craving. Or the first is for the purpose of eliminating the annihilation view because owing to the appearance of the fruit it makes it clear that there is no annihilation of the causes; and the second is for the purpose of eliminating the eternity view because it makes clear the ageing-and-death of what has arisen. Or the first deals with those conceived in a womb because it illustrates successive occurrence [of the faculties]; and the second deals with the apparitionally born because of simultaneous appearance [of the faculties]. 897. The past, the present and the future are its three times As regards these, it should be understood that, according to what has come down as proper in the Pali, the two factors, ignorance and formations, are of the past time; the eight, beginning with consciousness ending with existence, are of the present time; and the two, birth and ageing-and-death, are of the future time 901, (iii) But (I) Five causes were there in the past, and (2) now there is a fivefold fruit; (3) Five causes are there now as well, and (4) in the future fivefold fruit.' And it is by means of these twenty [spokes called] qualities- that the words in spokes are twenty qualities" should be understood. 902. (1)Herein as regards the words, "five cause* were there in the past . firstly only these two, namely, ignorance and formations, are stated. But because one who is ignorant hankers, and hankering' he clings, and with his clinging as condition there is existence, therefore craving, clinging and existence are included as well Hence it is said: "In the previous kamma-process existence, there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation [of rebirth-producing kamma], which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is existence; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process existence are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present existence]" (Ps i 52). 904 (2) And now there is a fivefold fruit" means what is given in the Pali beginning with consciousness and ending with feeling, according as it is said: "'Here (in the present existence] there is rebirth linking, which is consciousness; there is descent [into the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense-base; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five things here in the [present] rebirth-proccess existence have their conditions" in kamma done in the past" (Ps i 52). 906. (3) "Five causes are there now as well" means craving, etc. Craving, clinging an existence are given in the Pali. But when existence is included, formations which precede it, or which are associated with it, are included too. And by including craving and clinging, the ignorance associated therewith or whereby one who is deluded performs kamma. is included too. Thus they are five. Hence it is said: "Here [in the present existence] with the maturing of the sense bases there is delusion, which is ignorance; there is accumulation, which is formations; there is attachment, which is Craving there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which it exigence, thus these five things here in the [present] kamma-process existence are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future" (Ps i 52). 908. (4) "And in the future fivefold fruit" means the five beginning with consciousness These are expressed by the term "birth". But ageing-and-death" is the ageing and the death of these [five] them-selves. Hence it is said: "In the future there is rebirth-linking, which is consciousness, there is descent [into the womb], which is mentality-materiality; there is sensitivity, which is sense base; there is what is touched, which is contact; there is what is felt, which is feeling; thus these five things in the future rebirth-process existence have their conditions in kamma done here |in the present existence)" (Pa i 52) Thus this (Wheel of Existence's] "spokes are twenty qualities". KC: Formations are due to past kamma and accumulation of formations are due to present causes of kamma. Present forces like weather, illness causes bodily pain while bodily pains itself are a result of being in formation (past kamma). Though kamma could be a cause of bodily pain as it is one of the causes. Weather is definitely not caused by ignorance or kamma neither does weather that kills a being(untimely death) is due to ignorance or kamma. But the experience of pain and death is due to vipaka because of being resultants in formations and not because of kamma. Cheers KC #126039 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KC: Formations are due to past kamma ... S: Formations (in this context of D.O.) are kamma. Past formations (past cetana) was past kamma bringing results such as rebirth and vipaka cittas in this life-time. Present formations are present kamma which will bring results in future. As you quoted > Dispeller of Delusion pg 233 > 902. ......there is accumulation [of rebirth-producing kamma], which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is existence; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process existence are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in > the present existence]" (Ps i 52). ... >KC: and accumulation of formations are due to present causes of kamma. Present forces like weather, illness causes bodily pain while bodily pains itself are a result of being in formation (past kamma). Though kamma could be a cause of bodily pain as it is one of the causes. Weather is definitely not caused by ignorance or kamma neither does weather that kills a being(untimely death) is due to ignorance or kamma. But the experience of pain and death is due to vipaka because of being resultants in formations and not because of kamma. ... S: I don't think any of these ideas are supported by the good quote you provided. Metta Sarah ===== #126040 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:35 pm Subject: What I heard, attaa-sa~n~naa. nilovg Dear friends, Attaa-sa~n~naa: When we know that what appears through the eyes is only colour, we do not pay attention to different colours, there is no interest in them. Understanding must be developed until it is firm and (at the moment of awareness of just colour) we have no interest in shape and form. Otherwise we believe that we see people, that we see Khun Nipat who is sitting here. One knows shape and form of this or that thing by remembrance. Colour appears very shortly and falls away very rapidly. Then bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum) arise and the cittas of a mind- door process (arising later on) are accompanied by remembrance: there is remembrance of different colours, shape and form, of things, and then there is attaa-sa~n~naa, one believes that there is something there. Through ears hearing hears sounds, but one thinks that one hears words. Cittas arising in a mind-door process remember concepts. These arise later on after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. ******** Nina. #126041 From: KC Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Is okay, I leave to your own interpretation while I have my own. Thanks From KC On 19 Aug, 2012, at 3:58 PM, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ken O, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > > KC: Formations are due to past kamma > ... > S: Formations (in this context of D.O.) are kamma. Past formations (past cetana) was past kamma bringing results such as rebirth and vipaka cittas in this life-time. Present formations are present kamma which will bring results in future. > > As you quoted > > Dispeller of Delusion pg 233 > > > 902. ......there is accumulation [of rebirth-producing kamma], which is formations; there is attachment, which is craving; there is embracing, which is clinging; there is volition, which is existence; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process existence are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in > > the present existence]" (Ps i 52). > ... > >KC: and accumulation of formations are due to present causes of kamma. Present forces like weather, illness causes bodily pain while bodily pains itself are a result of being in formation (past kamma). Though kamma could be a cause of bodily pain as it is one of the causes. Weather is definitely not caused by ignorance or kamma neither does weather that kills a being(untimely death) is due to ignorance or kamma. But the experience of pain and death is due to vipaka because of being resultants in formations and not because of kamma. > ... > S: I don't think any of these ideas are supported by the good quote you provided. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: Equanimity. nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, Op 17-aug-2012, om 11:42 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > S: And a quote I always find helpful (from Vis.): > > "And after death there is rebirth-linking again; and after rebirth- > linking, life-continuum. Thus the conscious continuity of beings > who hasten through the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of > consciousness], and abode [of beings] occurs without break. But > when a man attains Arahantship, it ceases with the cessation of his > death consciousness." ------ N: "Hastening through the kinds of becoming..." We find this life very important, but it is only one short life in the series of endless existences. I heard the following this morning and I passed it on to Lodewijk. He appreciated it very much. He wanys me to read it to him again this afternoon. -------- What I heard: Attachment to persons. The relationship, for example, between mother and child is only for this life. When the mother dies, there is no longer her child in whatever plane she is reborn. She is no longer the person she was before. And it is the same in the case the child. When he dies he is no longer the object of affection for the mother, in whatever plane he is reborn. Kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and then one is reborn as a new person. When we have right understanding of this fact attachment and affectionate love can become less. Instead of attachment kusala citta can arise with gratefulness and appreciation of the good qualities of the person one is related to. Through pa~n~naa ones feelings and attitude can change. One can develop the divine abidings instead of just having attachment. There is no need to wait for the ending of a parents life, even at this moment kusala can be developed. In reality there is no he, no we, only realities arising because of conditions and falling away again. There can be more mettaa for those who are close to us, instead of attachment. ****** Nina. #126043 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:58 pm Subject: Satipatthana 8 - Feelings 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 19-aug-2012, om 5:48 heeft Ken H het volgende geschreven: > KH: I defer to you and Nina on that. The quote refers to "pairs of > results" but I can't even see what those pairs are. Is it showing > that each Patimokkha rule has both a paramattha result and a > pannatti result? ------ N: Just all the benefits of the Pa.timokkha are given here. I am not so inclined to think in the way of paramattha results and pa~n~natti results. Does that not make our life complicated? May I leave the catterpillar discussions to others? ------ Nina. #126045 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:08 pm Subject: Satipatthana 8 - Feelings 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion 1214. But as regards sukham vedanam vedivamano < 195.26 > ("feeling a pleasant feeling" etc., sukham vedanam ("a pleasant feeling") [means that] feeling a pleasant bodily or mental feeling, he understands: 'I understand a pleasant feeling.' Herein, although certainly children lying on their backs, drinking their mother's milk and so on know: We feel pleasure, nevertheless this is not said with reference to such knowing. For such knowing does not abandon the belief in a being, or abolish the perception of a being, and it js neither a meditation subject nor the development of a foundation of mindfulness. But this bhikkhu's knowing abandons the belief in a being, abolishes the perception of a being and is both a meditation subject and a foundation of mindfulness. For this is said with reference to such feeling as is accompanied by clear comprehension of [the question]: Who feels? Whose feeling is it? For what reason do these feelings come to be?". 1215. Herein, who feels? No being or person feels. Whose feeling is it? Not the feeling of any being or person. For what reason do feelings come to be? Feeling may come to be because of the object which is its basis {vatthu). Therefore he knows accordingly that 'feeling feels by making this or that basis for pleasure and so on its object, but [the words] 'I feel' are merely a conventional expression [used] with regard to the occurrence of that feeling". In this way it should be understood that "he knows: 'I feel a pleasant feeling'' while discerning thus that "it is feeling that feels by making the basis the object". 1216. Like a certain elder at Cittalapabbata. The Elder, it seems, at a time when he was sick, was groaning and rolling from side to side through the violence of his feeling. A young bhikkhu said to him: 'What place is hurting, venerable sir?' 'Friend, there is no particular place that hurts. It is just feeling that feels by making the basis its object.' 'From the time there comes to be such knowledge is it not proper to endure, venerable sir?' 'I am enduring, friend' 'Enduring, venerable sir, is admirable' The Elder endured. The wind [-y humour] burst up to his heart. His entrails lay in a heap on the bed. The Elder showed [this] to the young bhikkhu. Ts endurance to such an extent proper, friend?' The young bhikkhu was silent. The Elder, by yoking together energy and tranquility, reached Arahatship together with the discriminations and as "Equal-Headed One" {samasisin) he attained complete extinction [simultaneously with death].>> KC #126046 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:15 pm Subject: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" sarahprocter... Dear Azita, Rob E & all, my recent discussions with Ken O reminded me of some previous discussions with Howard, Rob K and others on kamma and its results, such as in the case of bombings. I came across the post I wrote after one of our discussions in Bangkok on livelihood and sila issues (as recently discussed with Rob E, Ken H and others) which included reference to the 'operating theatre when abortions are performed' scenario which we were recalling. I'll repost in full for consideration and any further discussion. Sarah ***** #44629 (April 05) S: Dhp Verse 124. “If there is no wound on the hand, one may handle poison; poison does not affect one who has no wound; there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention.” We discussed various concerns regarding right livelihood further as others have mentioned. Various scenarios were mentioned such as selling or purchasing alcohol, renting a premise to those engaged in questionable practices, assisting in an operating theatre when abortions are performed and so on. As both the verse above and the commentaries to the Va.nijjaa Sutta indicate (as just quoted*), it is the ‘evil intention’ that is indicative of the wrong livelihood, not necessarily the actions observed. For example, the trading in flesh which is avoided by an upasaka (“one who has gone to the Three Refuges”) refers (according to the Tiika) to “the rearing and killing of these (animals) in order to obtain and sell their flesh, or causing others to rear and kill them.” If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a surgeon in the case above, usually there’s no intention to make anyone intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable practices in the rented out premise. We don’t know the intentions or accumulations of the customers. We don’t need to think of a ‘whole situation’. Unwholesome kamma is just a moment of intention. As we know, there are likely to be many moments of wrong speech, deeds or livelihood often during the day when, for example, we don’t speak correctly in our work.** Clearly a sotapanna has no need for any abstention from such wrong speech or deeds in the course of his/her livelihood because at the moment of lokuttara (supramundane) path consciousness, any such inclination to wrong livelihood has been eradicated for good and sila of this kind has been perfected. Before we discussed the example of the dropping of the bomb which I’d heard and found helpful to reflect on further. I wrote: “As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to kill or whether it’s one’s duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one may just have been given the order.”*** Some may question whether it really is possible for a sotapanna to work in the military in such a way or aid a killer, an alcoholic or someone else who is clearly involved in wrong livelihood. The answer, I think, is ‘yes’. Even if one knows what actions may follow, one may still be assisting with metta or other wholesome mental factors, knowing one cannot prevent the others’ deeds. In the commentary to the Dhp verse above, we read about the wife of a hunter who was a sotapanna and whose husband was a hunter. She’d assist him with his nets, bows and arrows when he went hunting. When asked about this, the Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil." (full account below****). In other words, if it’s not one’s intention to do evil, there’s no wrong action involved. We may think now about following the precepts or avoiding particular scenarios, but it is only at actual moments of abstention from unwholesome deeds that there is the training that will lead to the absolute abstention of the sotapanna, like for the hunter’s wife. There cannot be such purification of sila without the real understanding of when wholesome and unwholesome intentions and other mental states arise momentarily. To stress the point, the same speech or deeds, such as the assistance with the bows and arrows, can be performed with different kinds of mental states – wholesome and unwholesome. In this regard, we discussed how sila can be referred to as kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome) or avyakata (indeterminate, i.e referring to the kiriya cittas of the arahant). For example, we might assist a hunter with metta, with a wish to aid the act of killing or because we’ve been instructed to. We all have many unwholesome moments in a day -- such as those concerned with wrong livelihood -- but we can learn to see that when they arise, there is no self involved. They are momentary wrong intentions or kamma that need to be seen for what they are with detachment and awareness. This is how they can be understood and eventually eradicated. Metta, Sarah * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43971 **http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44588 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44621 *** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43150 **** web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2f.htm Dhammapada, Verse124: IX (8) ,The Story of Kukkutamitta While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (124) of this book with reference to the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family. At Rajagaha there was once a rich man's daughter who had attained Sotapatti Fruition as a young girl. One day, Kukkutamitta, a hunter, came into town in a cart to sell venison. Seeing Kukkutamitta the hunter, the rich young lady fell in love with him immediately; she followed him, married him and lived with him in a small village. As a result of that marriage, seven sons were born to them and in course of time, all the sons got married. One day, the Buddha surveyed the world early in the morning with his supernormal power and found that the hunter, his seven sons and their wives were due for attainment of Sotapatti Fruition. So, the Buddha went to the place where the hunter had set his trap in the forest. He put his footprint close to the trap and seated himself under the shade of a bush, not far from the trap. When the hunter came, he saw no animal in the trap; he saw the footprint and surmised that someone must have come before him and let cut the animal. So, when he saw the Buddha under the shade of the bush, he took him for the man who had freed the animal from his trap and flew into a rage. He took out his bow and arrow to shoot at the Buddha, but as he drew his bow, he became immobilized and remained fixed in that position like a statue. His sons followed and found their father; they also saw the Buddha at some distance and thought he must he the enemy of their father. All of them took out their bows and arrows to shoot at the Buddha, but they also became immobilized and remained fixed in their respective postures. When the hunter and his sons failed to return, the hunter's wife followed them into the forest, with her seven daughters-in-law. Seeing her husband and all her sons with their arrows aimed at the Buddha, she raised both her hands and shout: "Do not kill my father." When her husband heard her words, he thought, "This must be my father-in-law", and her sons thought, "This must be our grandfather"; and thoughts of loving-kindness came into them. Then the lady said to them, ''Put away your bows and arrows and pay obeisance to my father". The Buddha realized that, by this time, the minds of the hunter and his son; had softened and so he willed that they should be able to move and to put away their bows and arrows. After putting away their bows and arrows, they pad obeisance to the Buddha and the Buddha expounded the Dhamma to them. In the end, the hunter, his seven sons and seven daughters-in-law, all fifteen of them, attained Sotapatti Fruition. Then the Buddha returned to the monastery and told Thera Ananda and other bhikkhus about the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family attaining Sotapatti Fruition in the early part of the morning. The bhikkhus then asked the Buddha, "Venerable Sir, is the wife of the hunter who is a sotapanna, also not guilty of taking life, if she has been getting things like nets, bows and arrows for her husband when he goes out hunting?" To this question her Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil." ========================================== #126047 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:17 pm Subject: Satipatthana 8 - Feelings 3 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1218. Thus, in expounding the immaterial meditation subject after expounding the material meditation subject, the Blessed One did so by way of feeling. For the meditation subject is twofold: the material meditation subject and the immaterial meditation subject. And this is also called "the laying-hold of the material and the laying-hold of the immateriar. Herein, when expounding the material meditation subject, the Blessed One expounded the defining of the elements through either bringing to mind in brief or bringing to mind in detail. And both [kinds, in brief and in detail,] are shown in all aspects in the Visuddhimagga (see Vis 347 f.). But when expounding the immaterial meditation subject, he mostly expounded it by way of feeling. For the laying to heart of the immaterial meditation subject is threefold: by way of impression, by way of feeling and by way of consciousness. How? When the material meditation subject is laid hold of either in brief or in detail, (1) to one there becomes manifest the impression which arises and which contacts the object in the first impact of consciousness and conscious components on that object; (2) to another the feeling which arises and which feels that object; (3) to another there becomes evident the consciousness which arises and which cognises by laying hold of that object. 1219. |265| Herein, (1) one to whom impression becomes evident lays hold of the impression pentad thus: 'Not only impression itself arises, but also together with it there arises feeling which experiences that same object, also perception which perceives it, also volition which forms plans about it and also there arises consciousness which cognises it. (2) One to whom feeling becomes evident also lays hold of the impression pentad thus: 'Not only feeling itself arises, but also together with it there arises impression which contacts it, also perception which perceives it, also volition which forms plans about it and also there arises consciousness which cognises it.' (3) One to whom consciousness becomes evident also lays hold of the impression pentad thus: 'Not only consciousness itself arises, but also together with it there arises impression which contacts that same object, also feeling which experiences it, also perception which perceives it, also there arises volition which forms plans about it.' 1220. Considering: 'On what do these five states belonging to the impression pentad depend?' he understands: - They depend on the basis.' What is called the basis is the physical body, about which it is said: "But this my consciousness depends hereon, is bound up herewith" (D i 76); as to meaning, that [basis consists of] both the primaries and derived materiality. Accordingly he here sees mentality-materiality thus: The basis is materiality and the impression pentad is mentality/ "Materiality is the materiality aggregate and mentality is the four immaterial aggregates". Thus it consists merely of the five aggregates. For there are no five aggregates apart from mentality-materiality, and no mentality-materiality apart from the five aggregates. By inquiring: These five aggregates, what is their cause?' he sees: They have ignorance and so on as their cause.' Thereupon, [knowing that:] This is both condition and the conditionally-arisen, there is no separate being or person, there is just a mere heap of formations,' he applies the three characteristics by way of mentality-materiality with its conditions and he proceeds to comprehension of "impermanence, suffering, no-self" by means of successive insight.>> KC #126048 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:30 pm Subject: Satipatthana 8 - Feeling 4 - Immaterial mediation - by Feeling First ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1222. Here, however, in expounding the immaterial meditation subject, the Blessed One does so |266| by way of feeling. Expounding it by way of impression or by way of consciousness, it does not become evident. It seems as though it were obscure; but by way of feeling it becomes evident. 1223. Why? Because of the obviousness of the arising of feelings. For the arising of pleasant and painful feeling is evident. When pleasant [feeling] arises, it does so shaking, pounding, pervading and flooding the whole body, like being made to eat butter a hundred times washed, like being anointed with oil a hundred times cooked, like being cooled of a fever with a hundred pots of water, causing one to utter the words: "Ah, the bliss! Ah, the bliss!" When painful [feeling] arises, it does so shaking, pounding, pervading and flooding the whole body, like a hot spear being driven in, like being splashed with molten metal, like throwing a quantity of burning embers into dry grass and trees in a forest, causing one to utter the words: ' Ah. the pain! Ah, the pain!' Thus the arising of pleasant and unpleasant feelings is evident. 1224. But neither painful nor-pleasant [feeling] is hard to illustrate, obscure and unobvious. It becomes evident to one who grasps it thus: Thti neither painful-nor-pleasant feeling is the central kind, opposed to the agreeable and the disagreeable, when pleasure and pain are absent. 'Like what? Like a deer hunter who is following the track of a fleeing deer which has midway gone up over a flat rock and who, on seeing the footprints on the near side and the far side of the Hat rock but none in the middle, knows thus: 'Here it went up, here it came down, in between it will have gone over the flat rock in this place.' Thus, like the footprint where it went up, the arising of pleasant feeling is evident; like the footprint in the place where it came down, the arising of painful feeling is evident; like the grasping thus: 'Here it went up, here it came down, in between it went thus it becomes evident to one who grasps it thus: "Neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is the central kind, opposed to the agreeable and disagreeable, when pleasure and pain are absent." Thus, after expounding the material meditation subject first, the Blessed One subsequently pointed out the immaterial meditation subject, presenting it by means of feeling.>> KC #126049 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:35 pm Subject: Satipatthana 8 - Feeling 5 - Another Method of Understanding ashkenn2k Dear all <<1226. Herein, as regards sukham vedanam < 195.26) ("a pleasant felling"), etc- there is also this other method of understanding.- He knows: I feel a pleasant feeling'" [means:) "At the moment of pleasant feeling because of the absence of painful feeling, he knows: I feel a pleasant feeling.'" Hence, [knowing:] 'Because of the absence of painful feeling which existed previously and because of the absence of this pleasant [feeling] when that [painful feeling] started, feeling is therefore called impermanent, unlasting and subject to change,' he is thus clearly comprehending of that. 1227. For this has been said by the Blessed One: 'When, Aggivessana, he feels pleasant feeling, then he does not feel painful feeling, and he does not neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling; then he feels only pleasant feeling. When, Aggivessana, he feels painful feeling ... feels neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, then he does not feel pleasant feeling and he does not feel painful feeling; then he feels only neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. And pleasant feeling, Aggivessana, is impermanent, formed, conditionally-arisen, subject to vanishing, subject to passing away, subject to fading away, subject to cessation. And painful feeling ... And neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, Aggivessana, is impermanent, formed, conditionally arisen, subject to vanishing, subject to passing away, subject to cessation. Seeing thus, Aggivessana, the well-taught noble disciple feels revulsion for pleasant feeling, feels revulsion for painful feeling, feels revulsion for neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling; feeling revulsion, [greed] fades away, with the fading away [of greed] he is liberated, when he is liberated there arises the knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: "Destroyed is birth, lived is the life of purity, done is what is to be done; there is no more of this to come" (M i 500). |268|>> KC #126050 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:38 pm Subject: Re: What I heard, attaa-sa~n~naa. szmicio Dear Nina, The mind-door is also vipaka isnt it? I remeber Acharn said once that when she sees she just sees. As i remember. The color, vana or visible object ruupa, conditions the seeing consciousness. this is one kind of condition, by way of arammana paccaya. No self that sees. But afterward comes thinking and wrong view that takes it for self or lasting. Isnt it? Is ditthi a reality that can also be known? can there be a vittaka cetasika, thinking in a sense door process, in javana of sense door process? What is the characteristic of color? Does the characteristic of experiencint , citta of seeing and hearin have different characteristcis? Best wishes Lukas > When we know that what appears through the eyes is only colour, we do > not pay attention to different colours, there is no interest in them. > Understanding must be developed until it is firm and (at the moment > of awareness of just colour) we have no interest in shape and form. > Otherwise we believe that we see people, that we see Khun Nipat who > is sitting here. One knows shape and form of this or that thing by > remembrance. Colour appears very shortly and falls away very rapidly. > Then bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum) arise and the cittas of a mind- > door process (arising later on) are accompanied by remembrance: there > is remembrance of different colours, shape and form, of things, and > then there is attaa-sa~n~naa, one believes that there is something > there. Through ears hearing hears sounds, but one thinks that one > hears words. Cittas arising in a mind-door process remember concepts. > These arise later on after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. > > ******** > Nina. > > > #126051 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: What I heard, attaa-sa~n~naa. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 19-aug-2012, om 11:38 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > The mind-door is also vipaka isnt it? I remeber Acharn said once > that when she sees she just sees. As i remember. > ------- N:ONly the tadaaramma.nacitta that may (or may not) arise in a mind- door process is vipaakacitta. The preceding javanacittas are not vipaaka as you know. ------ > > L: The color, vana or visible object ruupa, conditions the seeing > consciousness. this is one kind of condition, by way of arammana > paccaya. No self that sees. But afterward comes thinking and wrong > view that takes it for self or lasting. Isnt it? Is ditthi a > reality that can also be known? > ----- N: It is a dhamma and it can be known but not before the first stage of insight. We can roughly know it by intellectual understanding. ------ > L: can there be a vittaka cetasika, thinking in a sense door > process, in javana of sense door process? > ------ N: Yes, there has to be. It does not accompany the sense-cognitions of seeing etc. These do not need vitakka. I am not dealing now with jhaanacittas. ------ > L: What is the characteristic of color? > ------ N: It appears through eyesense, it is that which can be seen. It is not a person or thing we "believe wrongly" that we see. ------- > L:Does the characteristic of experiencing , citta of seeing and > hearing have different characteristcis? > ------ N: Yes, they experience different objects through different doorways. But all cittas have the characteristic of knowing clearly an object. Citta is the principal in knowing an object. ------- Nina. #126052 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:48 pm Subject: Re: qu from Luraya szmicio Dear Alberto, Luraya > I think that when one gives in to kilesa (lobha, > dosa,...) there is no understanding of realities then. L: But they comes in naturaly. lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion and ignorance, moha. they are 3 hetus and they follows so naturally. > Khun Sujin often reminds us that the only way to > actually decrease kilesas is by understanding them as > realities, with pa~n~na. > And the first level of understanding is > pariyatti, intellectual understanding. L: Yes and I think this considering the meaning of the texts(The Techings of blessed One) - pariyatti is the main condition for less ignorance and the way to detachement. We cannot control the root, of lobha, dosa and moha that follows. they are there. Bhante Dhammadharo says, when they are conditions for a fog it's there, and no one can make it or say let there be no fog. But listening and studying Dhamma with wise attention - pariyatti is a main condition for more detachement, but we shall not expect. expectation it'self is lobha, and it's there whenewere there are conditions. We can learn this is out of control. When there is more consideration of dhammas in life, even on intelectuall level - pariyatti, then mind is more occupied with realities and the stories stop to be so important. And that is what we can do, and later the time with come that patipatti will appear and this is direct understanding and awarness of realities that was learned before on level of pariyatti. When the patipatti grows, there comes pativeda direct realisation of the truths and there is nothing more to be done. Long long way. Luraya remember this 3 words like Alberto mentioned: pariyatti, patipatti, pativeda. Pariyatti as Acharn Naeb states is the knowing of the meaning of the texts, this is studying and listiening Dhamma with wise attention(yoniso manasikara), and this can later on when panna of intelectuall level grows help patipatti to grow. And patipatti is direct awarness and understanding of realities, of nama and ruupa. Pativeda is the 3rd one and this is when panna grows up to the level of enlightenment. This is hard. And all doubts and difficulties, this is so common. Everyone must have went throught this. read more and listen more to Dhamma, keep posting a question here, and little by little everything will be more clear to you. This is how we start. And remember a penny a day no rush. Best wishes Lukas #126053 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:47 am Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah and Lukas, Thanks for your replies. To clarify: > Khine: > Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > ... > S: Objects of kilesa, defilements. "Defiled dhammas" could be misunderstood. For example, lobha is a kilesa, a defilement. Can you say it is a "defiled dhamma"? Not sure it makes sense. In the Khine translation, is there in fact a difference between "Dhamma which are defiled" - sa.mkili.t.tha part, and the "defilements" themselves (mentioned in the second part of the sentence)? To take your example, lobha would belong to both "dhamma which are defiled", as well as to "defilements" in the sense of kilesa. Is there a dhamma which would belong to one but not the other? Thanks. Best wishes pt #126054 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Dhs jonoabb Hi pt (and Sarah and Lukas) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Lukas, > > Thanks for your replies. To clarify: > > > Khine: > > Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) ... > > In the Khine translation, is there in fact a difference between "Dhamma which are defiled" - sa.mkili.t.tha part, and the "defilements" themselves (mentioned in the second part of the sentence)? > > To take your example, lobha would belong to both "dhamma which are defiled", as well as to "defilements" in the sense of kilesa. Is there a dhamma which would belong to one but not the other? Thanks. > J: Just a thought, but it could be said that citta is a dhamma that is defiled (i.e., by akusala cetasikas) but is not itself a defilement. Jon #126055 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:24 pm Subject: Re: Dhs szmicio Dear Jon, > > To take your example, lobha would belong to both "dhamma which are defiled", as well as to "defilements" in the sense of kilesa. Is there a dhamma which would belong to one but not the other? Thanks. > > > > J: Just a thought, but it could be said that citta is a dhamma that is defiled (i.e., by akusala cetasikas) but is not itself a defilement. L: This is Dhammasangani, where the Buddha explains all realities. Yasmin samaye, when the time come, when there are proper conditions the akusala comes in. The akusala cetasikas and also there is citta that is akusala by that. So I think when akusala comes in the citta itself is akusala. this is just my thoughts, as i remmeber in Dhammasangani citta is mentioned next to akusala cetasika in section on kammavacara akusala. Many different aspects of dhamma Best wishes Lukas #126056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:05 pm Subject: What I heard. Pakinnaka, Miscalleneous, no 432). In Sarnath. nilovg Dear friends, Pakinnaka, Miscalleneous, no 432). In Sarnath. Question: Could Acharn elaborate more on patience being the highest ascetism? Acharn: At this moment here is dhamma that arises and falls away. We need patience and endurance to listen to the Dhamma, to develop right understanding, stage by stage, so that the arising and falling away of realities can be realized and the four noble truths can be penetrated at the moment of enlightenment. Question from Nina: I am different from the five disciples who listened, I am hoping for results. I expect results from listening. Kh S: It is a reality that is wishing and clinging, not Kh Nina. So long as there is ignorance there is still expecting and clinging. N: We cannot do anything about this. Kh S: LIttle by little more understanding can be developed, that is what can be done. N: If there is no khanti, patience, we are hoping for results. Question: How can I listen in the right way? Kh S : We listen in order to have right understanding, not for any other reason. We listen not for the sake of gain, honour or praise, but only in order to have right understanding. Q: I listen in order to have a lot of kusala. Kh S: We should understand that there is no self. Understanding is not self, it is only a dhamma. Develop understanding so that there is no more self. In the case of those people in the past who had abandoned the idea of self, they had developed pa~n~naa to a great extent in this place. In each of the holy places we visit there were people who could realize the four noble Truths. Even devas could realize the four noble Truths when they heard the Buddhas first sermon, the Setting in motion of the Wheel of Dhamma (about the four noble Truths, KIndred Sayings v, 420). Perhaps Khun Unnop can help elaborating on this sutta.> Kh Unnop referred to the fact that the devas of lower planes passed on their appreciation progressively to the devas of higher planes and so on to those of the Brahma worlds: they all appreciated the sutta and passed it on. The Buddha made a solemn utterance that A~n~na Konda~n~na had understood the four noble Truths. ------- Nina. #126057 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt > Khine: > Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) K: Two fold, because dhamma can be objects of another dhamma. Just like craving which is a defilement can be an object of a dosa citta. When it is about being objects of defilement, they are only applicable to akusala cittas, hence they are objects of defilements. If you want the book of Expositor, write off list to me of your posting address, I will send to you thanks KC #126058 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:14 pm Subject: Conventional activities as part of the path (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: I have not previously heard of a second orthodox view within Theravada. In fact, I'd have thought that 2 orthodox views within the same school would be a contradiction in terms :-)). Well, I think that's a worthwhile point. If most Buddhists around the world - let's say 95% - are part of a tradition that honors meditation as the means to develop satipatthana, and a lifestyle of simplicity and kindness as the means to develop sila, is that not perhaps the more likely "orthodoxy?" The Thai Forest tradition and other groups as well trace back to the original practice of the Buddha and his disciples - a life of wise consideration of teachings, development of jhana and meditation to develop satipatthana. = > To my understanding, the orthodox Theravada view is that found in the Pali Canon, which of course includes the commentaries in addition to the 3 Pitakas (Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma). > > In my view it is not correct to characterise the orthodox view as `based in Abhidhamma' rather than in sutta, since it is based on all 3 Pitakas. And in any event there is a vast overlap of material (and no inconsistency) between those 2 Pitakas. Well I would say that there are Buddhist sects that see meditation practice as described by the Buddha in the suttas as the root of Buddhist practice, and there are those which see the commentarial description of arising dhammas as the root of the practice. They may all come from the Tipitaka but there is a very different emphasis in practice and understanding. > > =============== > > RE: Secondly, regarding "only moments of insight" represent the development of the NEP, I think that is a very restrictive point of view. It doesn't allow for all the influences and supports that cause those moments of insight to arise. ... It's like saying that only the moments when you get an "A" on a test are "school." Everything else has nothing to do with "school." All the moments of learning, almost learning, being in class, doing homework, getting bad grades, *and* getting "A"s are all school, not just the "A"s. > > =============== > > J: Well, taking your school analogy, assume a school system in which only the exam results count for the end-of year grade. Now it could be said that all the classwork, homework, cramming, etc, should also be regarded as part of getting the grade, since that is what makes the achieving of the exam grade possible.. But it's a question of whether it's really helpful to adopt that terminology and approach. > > The official (school) line is that it all comes down to the exam, and that of course is indisputably so. That has not been found to be a very effective or accurate way of teaching. It leads to rote learning rather than understanding in many cases. To "teach to the test" has been found to be the worst form of education. So it seems to me that to look only at results as a measurement of progress and not at the quality of the process involved is in almost all areas a giant mistake, and it may also be so for the Dhamma. > Note that this is not to say that the rest counts for nothing, as clearly taking the exam without the rest would be a hard ask. But it states what counts most directly. Ultimately of course the result is the point of the practice, but there is also something to be said for the quality of the experience of the path. In addition how can one be fully mindful of what is in the moment while only honoring a future result? The path is what is known and understood now, isn't it? Or does it only come into play at "test time," at moments of fully realized panna? > To take the analogy further, the actual prerequisites under the exam system could be described as acquiring the necessary knowledge of the matters set out in the syllabus, rather than attending classes and all those other bits and pieces that are the means by which the necessary knowledge is gained under that system. Well that aspect of it might be worthwhile, as it may allow for greater flexibility in the individual's natural way of approaching the path - that is a good point. But the syllabus can only go so far, and cannot teach in and of itself. > By the way, I don't think you've told us yet what you see as being the main conditions for developing the path, those conditions without which the path cannot be developed. Would you care to share your views on this question? I'm not sure if my views of this are really that important, since I don't understand all the components well enough - and that is an understatement. I could recite some of the things I am aware of from these discussions - such as hearing the Dhamma, wise friends, wise reflection, and on my list, consistent practice. Of course when it comes to the nature of practice, that's another controversial discussion... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126059 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Pt, I've considered the point about 'defiled' a little more: ________________________________ >> J: Just a thought, but it could be said that citta is a dhamma that is defiled (i.e., by akusala cetasikas) but is not itself a defilement. > >L: This is Dhammasangani, where the Buddha explains all realities. Yasmin samaye, when the time come, when there are proper conditions the akusala comes in. The akusala cetasikas and also there is citta that is akusala by that. So I think when akusala comes in the citta itself is akusala. ... S: Yes, but the citta is said to be defiled by the kilesa (lobha, dosa, mona). We can find the same expression in suttas, for example: SN 22.100 The Leash " 'For a long time this mind (citta) has been defiled (sa.mkili.t.tha.m) by lust, hatred, and delusion.' Through the mind beings are defiled; with the cleansing of the mind beings are purified." "‘diigharattamida.m citta.m sa.mkili.t.tha.m raagena dosena mohenaa’ti. Cittasa.mkilesaa, bhikkhave, sattaa sa.mkilissanti; cittavodaanaa sattaa visujjhanti." Also, recently I referred to the Luminous Sutta. The cittas referred to as being defiled are the bhavanga cittas which are 'pure' before the kilesa appear and 'defile' the accompanying javana cittas. The Pabhassara Sutta AN 1,v,9-10 "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled (upakkili.t.tha.m.) by incoming defilements." "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." See B.Bodhi's commentary notes: "Luminous (pabhasara'm). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhava'nga-citta, the 'life-continuum' or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process, which, in later Buddhist literature, is called 'javana', 'impulsion'. AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhava'nga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. The fact that this expression 'luminous mind' does not signify any 'eternal and pure mind-essence' is evident from the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. The 'uninstructed worldling' (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the Dhamma and training in its practice." Metta Sarah ====== #126060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:26 pm Subject: Beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming. nilovg Dear friends, Elaboration of Ch. XIV, 124 by the Tiika: Ch. XIV, 124. 124. And after death there is rebirth-linking again; and after rebirth-linking, life-continuum. Thus the conscious continuity of beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of consciousness], and abode [of beings] occurs without break. N: ...of beings who hasten through the kinds of becoming, in Pali: sa.msaramaanaana.m sattaana.m. The word sa.msarati means:come again and again, traverse one life after the other. As to the words, the kinds of becoming, destiny, station [of consciousness], and abode [of beings], the Tiika mentions: three kinds of becoming, five destinies, six states of consciousness and nine abodes of beings, but it does not give details. These can be found elsewhere. In the Recital (D, III, p. 209, XXI): three planes of rebirth, bhava, : of sense-desires, of ruupajhaana, of aruupajhaana. Five destinies, gati, : of hell, animal world, ghosts (petas), mankind, devas (Recital (D, III, p. 225). Six states of consciousness: Co to D. III, Recital, (p. 1034): seeing- consciousness, the kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka that is dependent on eyesense, and so for the other four sense-cognitions, and the sixth is mind-consciousness, mano-viaa.na (see D III, p. 230, VI, 1). Nine abodes of beings, avaasa, : the place where they are reborn. The Gradual Sayings refers to some of these: the place of birth of men, of some devas, of demons, the brahma worlds where those are born who cultivated stages of ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana. The texts remind us of the danger of rebirth. We do not know which kamma will produce which kind of rebirth at a particular moment in the cycle. Vis. text: But when a man attains Arahantship here, it ceases with the cessation of his death consciousness. N: The Tiika explains that the word , etthaa, refers to the beings who go around in the cycle. Tiika text: as to the words, but he who has accomplished arahatship (yo pana arahatta.m paapu.naati) this means, by the right practice which is in accordance with it For the arahat there is indeed cessation because there is no more rebirth (tassa arahato niruddhameva hoti citta.m appa.tisandhikabhaavato). N: For the attainment of arahatship, there must be the right practice so that this goal can be reached. Paaa has to be developed until it eradicates all latent tendencies. ******* Nina. #126061 From: "Alberto" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:46 pm Subject: Re: qu from Luraya sprlrt Hi Lukas, L: And remember a penny a day no rush. I'll try :-) Alberto #126062 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:55 pm Subject: feeling luraya87 hej again i have got another quiestion about feeling (mental feeling) there is hearing, seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. but what about feelings, happiness, sadness and so on, do they arise when we are attaching to the stories of our thinking? or is thinking meant as feeling? thank you luraya #126063 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:40 pm Subject: Satipatthana 9 - Mind - With Lust and Without Lust ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> Dispeller of Delusion <<1231 ...... But as regards saragam va cittam ("the greedy mind') and so on, sarargam ("greedy") [means] the eight kinds [of consciousness] associated with greed. Vitaragam ("greed - free) is mundane profitable and indeterminate [consciousness]. However, because this is comprehension of states and not a collection of states, therefore the supramundane [consciousness] is not applicable here even in respect of one [of the two] two terms. The remaining four kinds of unprofitable consciousness do not come under either the previous or the subsequent term.>> KC #126064 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:47 pm Subject: Satipatthana 9 - Mind 2 - With Hat and Without Hate ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> Dispeller of Delusion <<1232. Sodasam (hateful) is the two kinds of [consciousness] associated with unpleasant feeling. Vitdosam [hate free] is mundane and profitable and indeterminate [consciousness]. The remaining ten kinds of unprofitable consciousness do not come under either the previous or subsequent term>> KC #126065 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:54 pm Subject: Satipatthana 9 - Mind 3 - With Delusion ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126066 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:01 pm Subject: Re: ajahn naeb philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Phil & all, > Hi Sarah > >This came up very clearly in one talk in which a woman asked her why she (the woman) cried when she visited holy sites, was it kusala or akusala, and A.Sujin answered very clearly that there is no way to know that until we know nama from rupa, we will just be thinking and speculating. > ... > S: Because we cling to a situation such as "crying at the holy sites" and try to work out whether this or that situation indicates kusala or akusala cittas without any understanding of the realities when they arise. It's like in the 'caterpillar' discussions - we can only speculate about situations and this is not any understanding. Ph: Essentially the person was interested in the phenomenon of crying tears of joy, is it kusala or akusala, but A.Sujin said, as you said, there can only be speculation. Really, as I've said before, I think this is so often the case for us, we say "just a lot of mana", for example, not because we have awareness of the characteristic of mana, but because the situation seems to call for mana. > > >In another talk from a few years ago, A.Sujin clearly said that it is harder for us to know nama than rupa, nama is more subtle. I thought at the time she was right, and I still think she is right, but when I asked about it this year in Thailand, she said no, no way to say which is more subtle (To Sarah's evident satisfaction, wink wink.) > ... > S: ;-) There is a difference between suggesting a) that nama is more subtle/less obvious than rupa and b) suggesting that rupas must be known first. Right understanding has to be with detachment from the very beginning. It depends entirely on accumulations as to what awareness is aware of, what understanding knows at any given moment. So I think the point was not to have expectations of what may appear now, otherwise it's lobha that takes us off-track again. Ph: Yes, a lot of lobha for those talks they seemed to make an awful lot of sense to me. But right you are, no rule. I guess I wanted to take what she said (rupa is more apparent than nama, and we must know nama from rupa before there can be knowing kusala from akusala) and extrapolate (?) it to mean we must know rupa first. But no rule. That's fine, thanks. Phil > > Nina summarised K.Sujin's comments in the recent India series: > > >When hearing appears it should be understood as only hearing, no self > who hears. Only the characteristic of the reality appearing at the > present moment, whatever it may be, should be known as it is. When > sound appears, it can be realized as only sound, it does not belong > to us. In this way right understanding of realities can be developed. > When sound is known but not yet the experience of sound, there may be > a condition for pa to develop also the understanding of the > experience of sound. We should not have an idea that we can direct > sati to this or that particular object. There is no rule as to what > object sati should take; sati may be aware of soun > ... > > >Anyways, I do think it is true that until we know nama from rupa (which of course isn't as easy as people would think) we will not really know our mind states, and it will just be thinking and speculating, usually rooted in lobha. > ... > S: Without an understanding of namas and rupas over and over again, there will be no detachment from the idea of mind states or any other dhammas as anatta. This understanding has to begin with pariyatti understanding leading to direct understanding of such dhammas. > > However, there can't be parityatti or patipatti all the time. There may also be a growth of other kinds of kusala, such as dana and metta. For such growth, an understanding of kusala and akusala mind states must also be known, but at the level of samatha, not satipatthana. > ... > > With regard to your comments to Azita and Nina about concepts being "directly experienced". In the mind-door processes realities and concepts can be said to be 'directly experienced', but when we say that only realities can be 'directly experienced' it means as objects of satipatthana. Only realities have characteristics which can be directly known. It's a good point to clarify. > > Metta > > Sarah > ====== > #126067 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:04 pm Subject: Satipatthana 9 - Mind 4 - Shrunken, Distraction & Great ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126068 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:14 pm Subject: Is laughter always akusala? philofillet Dear Nina Sorry, I can't find the post in which you corrected me about smiles never being tooted in kusala, they can be, thanks for the correction. But did I not hear that laughter is always akusala? Not really such an important point. We will laugh, or we won't. I must say although I smile a lot I hardly ever laugh. I might be a sotapanna. (that's an akusala joke.) Phil #126069 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:17 pm Subject: Satipatthana 9 - Mind 5 - Quieted and Freed ashkenn2k Dear all <> KC #126070 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:30 pm Subject: SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (5) philofillet Dear Group (p.s to Lukas) Part II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "However, when we think of the world, with its beings, people or different things, we should know that this is only a moment of citta that thinks about what appeared to citta that sees, about visible object. Seeing occurs at a moment different from thinking about what appears. For everyone, citta arises just for a moment, then it is succeeded by the next one, this happens continuously. Thus, it seems that the whole wide world is there, with its many different people and things. But we should have right understanding of what the world is. We should know that realities appear one at a time, and that they appear only for one moment of citta. Since cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another very rapidly, it seems that the world does not disintegrate, the world lasts with beings, people and many different things. In reality, the world lasts just for one moment, namely, when citta arises and cognizes an object, just for that moment, and then it falls away together with the citta." (51-52) (end of passage) Phil p.s Lukas, are you sure A.Sujin says that when she sees, she just sees? That sounds like an advanced state , like the arahant who just saw the bones when the sexy woman walked by. It feels surprising to me that she would say that though it is not so important, I guess. #126071 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:08 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Lust ashkenn2k Dear all Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 260 <<8. They are hindrances in that they prevent wholesome consciousness such as jhana arising; they do not allow it to arise. Alternatively, they are hindrances in the sense of closing the eye of wisdom>> Dispeller of Delusion (1) Lust (kamacchanda) 1243. Herein, [270| the "arising" (uppada) of lust comes about through unwise bringing to mind in regard to the sign of the beautiful. As regards "the sign of the beautiful" (suhhanimitta) the beautiful is the sign of the beautiful and also the beautiful object is the sign of the beautiful. "Unwise bringing to mind" (ayoniso manasikdara) is a name for the bringing to mind of what is not the means (anupdya-manasikdra), for the bringing to mind of what is not the way (uppatha-manasikdra) (cf. MA i 64), and for the bringing to mind of permanence in regard to the impermanent, of bliss in regard to suffering, of self in regard to no-self or of the beautiful in regard to the foul. Because of employing it much in regard to that [object], lust arises. 1244. Hence the Blessed One said: There is the sign of the beautiful, bhikkhus. Unwise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen lust, or for the growth and increase of arisen lust' (S v 64, 103). 1245. The "abandoning" (pahana) comes about through wise bringing to mind in regard to the sign of the foul. As regards the "sign of the foul" (asubhanimitta) the foul is the sign of the foul, and the foul object is also the sign of the foul. "Wise bringing to mind" (yoniso manasikara) is a name for the bringing to mind of what is the means (upaya-manasikara), for the bringing to mind of what is the way (patha-manasikdra) and for the bringing to mind of impermanence in regard to the impermanent, of suffering in regard to suffering, of no-self in regard to no-self and of the foul in regard to the foul. Because of employing it much in regard to that [object], lust comes to be abandoned. 1246. Hence the Blessed One said: There is the sign of the foul, bhikkhus. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the non-arising of unarisen lust, or for the abandoning of arisen lust, not for its growth and increase' (S v 105). >> KC #126072 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:23 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Six things lead to abandoning of Lust ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1247. Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of lust: (1) the acquiring of the sign of the foul, (2) devotion to the development of the foul, (3) restraint of the sense doors as regards the faculties, (4) knowledge of the right amount in eating, (5) good friendship, (6) suitable talk. 1248. (1) For lust is abandoned in one who acquires the tenfold sign of the foul (see Vis VI), (2) who develops [it], (3) whose sense doors are closed as regards the faculties, and also (4) in one who knows the right amount in eating through the practice of maintaining himself by drinking water [to end his meal] when there is still room for four or five lumps of food. Hence it was said: "He should drink water while there's room for four or five more lumps of food, The bhikkhu who is strenuous finds this enough for happiness" (Thag 983). 1249. (5) Lust is abandoned also in one who cultivates good friends who delight in the development of the foul like the Elder Tissa, the worker on the foul (Asubhakammika-Tissa) (see Vis 20). 1250. Also (6) it is abandoned through suitable talk, while standing, sitting, etc., which is based on the tenfold foul. |271] Hence it was said [above]: "Six things lead to the abandoning of lust"* 1251. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to be the future non-arising of lust abandoned by means of these six things. >> KC #126073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feeling nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 20-aug-2012, om 10:55 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > i have got another quiestion about feeling (mental feeling) > > there is hearing, seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. > but what about feelings, happiness, sadness and so on, do they > arise when we are attaching to the stories > of our thinking? or is thinking meant as feeling? ------- N: Feeling, vedanaa. accompanies every citta. There isn't any moment without feeling. It can be pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. When you think that there is no feeling, there is indifferent feeling. Seeing, hearing and the other sense- cognitions are accompanied by indifferent feeling. After seeing has fallen away there may be kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Kusala cittas can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. Akusala cittas rooted in attachment can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. Akusala cittas rooted in aversion are always accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Akusala cittas rooted in ignorance (moha) are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The citta that thinks of stories and is attached in these stories are akusala cittas rooted in attachment. So, it all depends what type of citta the feeling accompanies. Thinking is not feeling. This is in short, I did not give many details. We take feeling so much for self. When we feel happy or unhappy, we find the feeling very important, but it does not last, it falls away immediately. We hold on to feeling and then it seems to last. ----- Nina. #126074 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (5) nilovg Dear Phil (Lukas), Op 20-aug-2012, om 12:30 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > p.s Lukas, are you sure A.Sujin says that when she sees, she just > sees? ----- N:I think this is to illustrate that when there is seeing, there is at that moment nothing else. No thinking. There is seeing now, but we have to learn what seeing is, different from perceiving people. We have to listen and consider, and then later on there can be awareness of realities, so that understanding becomes more precise. Nina. #126075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is laughter always akusala? nilovg Dear Phil, Op 20-aug-2012, om 12:14 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > But did I not hear that laughter is always akusala? Not really such > an important point. We will laugh, or we won't. I must say although > I smile a lot I hardly ever laugh. ------ N: Different ways of laughing with different intensities. Explained in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and co. Laughing: akusala. Smiling: the smiling-consciousness of the arahat (hasituppada) is kiriyacitta. Of non-arahats, different types of cittas. Nina. #126076 From: "Alberto" Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:44 pm Subject: Re: qu from Luraya sprlrt Hi again Lukas, L: We cannot control the root, of lobha, dosa and moha that follows. they are there. Bhante Dhammadharo says, when there are conditions for fog, it's there, and no one can make it or say let there be no fog. I like this methaphor, about the elements arising by conditions, rather than according to one's wishes (which are themself, particularly when accompanied by miccha ditthi/wrong view, conditioning factors for the arising of elements that are unwished for, i.e. the second NT, the cause of dukkha). Alberto #126077 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ajahn naeb sarahprocter... Hi Phil, >Ph: Essentially the person was interested in the phenomenon of crying tears of joy, is it kusala or akusala, but A.Sujin said, as you said, there can only be speculation. Really, as I've said before, I think this is so often the case for us, we say "just a lot of mana", for example, not because we have awareness of the characteristic of mana, but because the situation seems to call for mana. ... S: You often mention the "just a lot of mana"! It always comes back to the present citta. We might remind someone about mana or metta out of kindness or out of dosa. So again it comes back to understanding now. When A.Sujin was suggesting that trying to work out what cittas there were in the past was just speculation, she was pointing to the present cittas at the time - the only reality. ... >Ph: Yes, a lot of lobha for those talks they seemed to make an awful lot of sense to me. But right you are, no rule. I guess I wanted to take what she said (rupa is more apparent than nama, and we must know nama from rupa before there can be knowing kusala from akusala) and extrapolate (?) it to mean we must know rupa first. But no rule. That's fine, thanks. .... S: And all kinds of dhammas have to be known - namas and rupas, over and over again. Unless both namas and rupas are known, there won't be any real understanding of dhammas as anatta. Smiles - I'd been about to pick that point up as well in your earlier message. Like when you're helping and encouraging your students or taking care of your mother - of course, there are bound to be different kinds of cittas, but moments of kindness, helpfulness (with a smile) can be known as those moments of thinking of the other's welfare, not our own. As I once heard K.Sujin telling someone, everyone prefers to see a smiling face! She even smiles when she talks to animals in the zoo:-) Different cittas, lots of attachment for sure. Back to awareness and understanding now. Metta Sarah ===== #126078 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:24 am Subject: Re: SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (5) philofillet - Hi Nina, Lukas. > N:I think this is to illustrate that when there is seeing, there is > at that moment nothing else. No thinking. Ph: Well, that's certainly true. When we see, we see. And nothing else. Phil There is seeing now, but we > have to learn what seeing is, different from perceiving people. We > have to listen and consider, and then later on there can be awareness > of realities, so that understanding becomes more precise. #126079 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:58 am Subject: Re: ajahn naeb philofillet Hi Sarah --- > S: You often mention the "just a lot of mana"! It always comes back to the present citta. We might remind someone about mana or metta out of kindness or out of dosa. So again it comes back to understanding now. > > When A.Sujin was suggesting that trying to work out what cittas there were in the past was just speculation, she was pointing to the present cittas at the time - the only reality. I see. I can read a post by someone ssying "just a lot lot of lobha and mana" about a situation and I can think about whether the characteristic of mana is actually known to us but the only reality is the cittas that do that seeing (of visible object of the text) and thinking about it. If there is a citta that knows the characteristic of mana there is a citta that knows the characteristic of mana, wondering ehether there can be such a citta or not is just self wanting to establish rules in the citta process. The texts give us some rules about processes ( very complex rules) but I guess no rules about what can or cannot be object of understanding? In any case, thanks for helping me better see my tendency to want to establish rules and limitations to understanding. Just a lot of lobha and mana at work but only thought about at work not seen at work at the time. Unless it is seen at work. No rules. Phil > >Ph: Yes, a lot of lobha for those talks they seemed to make an awful lot of sense to me. But right you are, no rule. I guess I wanted to take what she said (rupa is more apparent than nama, and we must know nama from rupa before there can be knowing kusala from akusala) and extrapolate (?) it to mean we must know rupa first. But no rule. That's fine, thanks. > .... > S: And all kinds of dhammas have to be known - namas and rupas, over and over again. Unless both namas and rupas are known, there won't be any real understanding of dhammas as anatta. > > Smiles - I'd been about to pick that point up as well in your earlier message. Like when you're helping and encouraging your students or taking care of your mother - of course, there are bound to be different kinds of cittas, but moments of kindness, helpfulness (with a smile) can be known as those moments of thinking of the other's welfare, not our own. As I once heard K.Sujin telling someone, everyone prefers to see a smiling face! She even smiles when she talks to animals in the zoo:-) Different cittas, lots of attachment for sure. Back to awareness and understanding now. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > #126080 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:25 pm Subject: Re: qu from Luraya szmicio Dear Alberto, Cant wait to see you. My brother will be picking u up. > L: We cannot control the root, of lobha, dosa and moha that follows. > they are there. Bhante Dhammadharo says, when there are conditions for fog, it's > there, and no one can make it or say let there be no fog. > >Alberto: I like this methaphor, about the elements arising by conditions. L: yes just elements, and those 3 lobha, dosa, moha are also a hetu(roots), and do we remember that? There is so much ignorance and wrong view for all of us, but they are conditioned and this we must learn. each of us. A long way. A life. Micha ditthi itself is not a root. But do we know that? Do we consider a dhammas that are hetu and which are na hetu in our life? Alberto: ...rather than according to one's wishes.. L: Yes, no Self or my wisf in 24 conditions or patticasamuppada. Just conditions that are not Self. Alberto: ..(which are themself, particularly when accompanied by miccha ditthi/wrong view, conditioning factors for the arising of elements that are unwished for, i.e. the second NT, the cause of dukkha). L: I think ditthi cetasika, wrong view that is always accompanied by lobha is contition Wrong Path, I think this is opposite of Right Path, that is 4th Noble Truth. But yes wrong view comes with lobha and ignorance and it covers the truth so much. I think that opposite of wrong view is right view , the first factor ofnoble truth. So no much to do, just developing more right view and right thinking, the 2 first factors of 8fold Path. I think when there is right view all the factors are there of 8fold path like right thinking, sometimes right sila and neccessery right effort , right awarness and right concentration. Sometimes Buddha talked of 5fold Path, cause silla doesnt arise all the time with the Path. The penny a day is what Acharn said in her dhamma talks, I mostly pointed this to Luraya, not to be to much into hasten anything. But this is good reminder for all of us. And no one actually has control over weather I will hasten or not the development of right undersatanding. It just follows its own way, no way to choose. Best wishes Lukas #126081 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ajahn naeb szmicio Dear Sarah and Phil, > >Ph: Essentially the person was interested in the phenomenon of crying tears of joy, is it kusala or akusala, but A.Sujin said, as you said, there can only be speculation. Really, as I've said before, I think this is so often the case for us, we say "just a lot of mana", for example, not because we have awareness of the characteristic of mana, but because the situation seems to call for mana. > ... > S: You often mention the "just a lot of mana"! It always comes back to the present citta. We might remind someone about mana or metta out of kindness or out of dosa. So again it comes back to understanding now. L: mana (conceit)? No problem. It is one of ma~n~nanas, papancas. other are tanha and ditthi papancas. They hold that world, they are fantasies we all are. They follow like this naturally and no problem a lot of mana or whatever else. this is also dukkha we cannot stop it. But we can learn no control, no self anywhere. > When A.Sujin was suggesting that trying to work out what cittas there were in the past was just speculation, she was pointing to the present cittas at the time - the only reality. L: Thinking of past or futer or of present moment. attention follows that way, no one to bring back anything here or there just more understanding. Whatever happens it is like it is and it must be like that. Just more understanding. More reading and listening to Dhamma. best wishes Lukas #126082 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/16/2012 11:42:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > I am not sure, but it seems like you are reducing conditionality to > co-incidence - that X is always accompanied by Y, or that X & Y always arise > together - even if the reason for such co-arising has no interaction involved. > That may not be what you mean, so what I say next may not apply, but I will > be interested to hear what you think. > ============================== > No, I'm not talking of co-occurrence. I'm saying that I think the > Buddha's teaching on conditionality is that , with regularity, dependability, > objectivity, and invariability, when all conditions for a phenomenon have > eventually arisen, that phenomenon arises, a.k.a., "this/that conditionality". Thanks, Howard, that is somewhat clearer to me, but still not sure if there is an element of causality in there or if it is something more like adding up the pieces of a puzzle. I can say that when all the conditions come together for a rocket to take off, then the rocket takes off. That is a sort of cumulative causality. Or I can say that when all the pieces of a puzzle come together, then the picture is complete. There's no causality, but the picture has been completed by all the pieces being present. Do either of these models approximate your sense of conditionality? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #126083 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: ajahn naeb philofillet Hi Lukas > > L: mana (conceit)? No problem. It is one of ma~n~nanas, papancas. other are tanha and ditthi papancas. They hold that world, they are fantasies we all are. They follow like this naturally and no problem a lot of mana or whatever else. this is also dukkha we cannot stop it. But we can learn no control, no self anywhere. I agree no problem re mana. But my point was about suggesting that we have awareness of when there is or isn't mana (or any defilement) when we are in fact just speculating based on situations. I think "awareness of characteristics" of namas is likely to just be speculation based on situations...but again, no problem with that....and just my opinion anyways. Phil > > > When A.Sujin was suggesting that trying to work out what cittas there were in the past was just speculation, she was pointing to the present cittas at the time - the only reality. > > L: Thinking of past or futer or of present moment. attention follows that way, no one to bring back anything here or there just more understanding. Whatever happens it is like it is and it must be like that. Just more understanding. More reading and listening to Dhamma. > > best wishes > Lukas > #126084 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:26 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Pt, Phil & all, Always glad to see you posting..... I miss your long train journeys before you got your car when you had all that time!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Yes, thanks again for having me, Jon was sick but you still made time for me and my questions. In fact, in retrospect, most of my questions were about breath, meditation, etc, not your favorite subject. ... S: Actually, I like these topics because they help me to reflect further. Breath is always a difficult one. ... >In fact, I think I detect a pattern - pretty much every time I come, I end up asking about breath and meditation until Jon literally passes out at some point :) ... S: It just shows how you're part of the family and he feels quite at ease to do so:-)) ... >Ah well, as you said once, if there was no meditation, there wouldn't be much to discuss, everything would be pretty much clear... .... S: Yes, it all comes down to the views about practice. When we agree on right practice as just being the understanding of realities appearing now, it's all pretty clear.... So, thanks to the meditators for keeping discussions lively! I'm sure there will be plenty of such discussions in Poland.... will try to send brief e-cards if I have wi-fi in my room... ... > >S: c) my qu to Pt - why does someone who understands that any object at all can be object of satipatthana focus on breath. His answer related to the pleasant feeling which is realises is attachment, but also the "clarity" - the joy of having a break from all that discursive thinking..... hmmm ... >PT: Yes, I'll have to think about this a bit, I think there's more to it than just being after pleasant feeling and clarity. ... S: Of course, there are lots of illusions of clarity during the day - such as when one solves a puzzle or can see the view clearly. But in dhamma terms, the only clarity is that of right understanding illuminating the object appearing. So, I think the clarity above is the joyful feeling and attachment taking a break from......other kinds of attachment? What do you think? ... >>I mean, there's probably also being after some other things, which might not be kusala. In fact, I recall one of your comments - if there's a belief that a particular state is better than others, there's already wrong view. Do I recall that right? ... S: If a particular dhamma is considered more suitable for sati and panna, that would be wrong. I may have also stressed that all conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta, so all equally worthless and unworthy of being clung to at all. Kusala states are useful because they're kusala, but in terms of the path, any dhamma can be the object and in this regard, jhana citta is no more useful than dosa or lobha. ... >PT: It is interesting to consider this in reference to one's motivation for practice, whatever "practice" may mean to the person. ... S: If there's any attempt to have particular kinds of dhammas arise or particular objects of awareness, it is wrong practice conditioned by atta-ditthi - not understanding the conditioned nature of what arises now. Metta Sarah ====== #126085 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:53 pm Subject: Off topic: WIFI: Was: Dhamma Wasteland dhammasaro Good friends all, If I may, On: ...will try to send brief e-cards if I have wi-fi in my room... Chuck: In my USA/Canada/international travels, I carry an Ethernet cable and a WiFi antenna which plugs into my laptop. Many properties have only the Ethernet connection. And, even new properties do not have the best WiFi signal strength; hence, I bring my external antenna for the weak signals. Look forward to your messages from Poland. peace... yours in the dhamma-vinaya, Chuck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Everyone. > Is it really true that no one has posted [other than me] for the last 30 hours or so? Help, where is everyone? > > Best, > Rob E. > > - - - - - - - - - - - > #126086 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:26 pm Subject: Re: Off topic: WIFI: Was: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Chuck, Many thx for your helpful message and suggestions. Also for kindly saying you'll look forward to messages from Poland. We're off to Bangkok for a week on Thursday first.... I'll see what Lukas finds out about the wifi first and go from there. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > Chuck: In my USA/Canada/international travels, I carry an Ethernet cable and a WiFi antenna which plugs into my laptop. > > Many properties have only the Ethernet connection. And, even new properties do not have the best WiFi signal strength; hence, I bring my external antenna for the weak signals. > > Look forward to your messages from Poland. <..> #126087 From: "charlest" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:17 pm Subject: Re: Bhante Gunaratana dhammasaro Good friend Lukas, et al 1. I also could not find a German translation. [bummer] 2. Would you check on the cost to translate from English to German? Please advise me off-list; I may be able to assist in the translation. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Chuck, > Very nice. I can add that I was looking for this book recently in German, because I wanted to take one chapter on introduction to vipassana and give it to my friend's mother since she only speaks German. Unfortunatelly i couldnt find German version. There is really good chapter on why this is good to practice meditation and what is that. I think this is really good introduction for people who doesnt know anything about it and great encourage to start with, to start the path of spirituality, to care of our life that is acctualy nothing else but sufferning. > > Best wishes > Lukas ....................................... rest deleted by Chuck ........................................... #126088 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhante Gunaratana moellerdieter Hi Lukas, as a German I may be of help ...assumed the chapter you like to be translated isn't too big ;-) with Metta Dieter #126089 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/21/2012 3:19:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/16/2012 11:42:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > I am not sure, but it seems like you are reducing conditionality to > co-incidence - that X is always accompanied by Y, or that X & Y always arise > together - even if the reason for such co-arising has no interaction involved. > That may not be what you mean, so what I say next may not apply, but I will > be interested to hear what you think. > ============================== > No, I'm not talking of co-occurrence. I'm saying that I think the > Buddha's teaching on conditionality is that , with regularity, dependability, > objectivity, and invariability, when all conditions for a phenomenon have > eventually arisen, that phenomenon arises, a.k.a., "this/that conditionality". Thanks, Howard, that is somewhat clearer to me, but still not sure if there is an element of causality in there or if it is something more like adding up the pieces of a puzzle. I can say that when all the conditions come together for a rocket to take off, then the rocket takes off. That is a sort of cumulative causality. Or I can say that when all the pieces of a puzzle come together, then the picture is complete. There's no causality, but the picture has been completed by all the pieces being present. Do either of these models approximate your sense of conditionality? --------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Both models capture the flavor, Generally, when people speak of causality, they assume some sort of (hidden) "causal force". My view, and I believe the Buddha's teaching, does not presume such a thing, but is a more matter-of-fact scenario. The Theravadin academic, David J. Kalupahana, views this/that-conditionality exactly in this manner, and I think his understanding is correct as an expression of the Dhamma. In his book "Buddhist Philosophy, A Historical Analysis" he reports the following: "In the 'Discourse on Causal Relations,' the Buddha mentions four characteristics of causality: (1) objectivity (tathata), (2) necessity (avitathata), (3) invariability (ana~n~nathata) and (4) conditionality (idappaccayata)" ------------------------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ================================= With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #126090 From: "Alberto" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:44 am Subject: Re: feeling sprlrt Hi Luraya, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > > hej again > > i have got another quiestion about feeling (mental feeling) > > there is hearing, seeing, smelling, touching, tasting and thinking. > but what about feelings, happiness, sadness and so on, do they arise when we are attaching to the stories > of our thinking? or is thinking meant as feeling? > Hi Luraya, I'll add some more notes to the ones Nina has aready posted: What we call thinking is the arising in sequence of seven consecutive instances of the same type of consciuousness, either kusala or akusala, and its concomitants (cetasikas, which include feeling, vedana) through the mind door, cognizing the same object/thought, as remembered by sa~n~naa, another consciousness' concomitant. We don't have to do anything special to think, it is just the nature of consciousness to act like that. And there is nothing that we can do to stop thinking either, apart from thinking about it... What do we think about? Apart from what we previously thought, we think about what we see, hear, taste, smell and touch. Seeing, ... touching are types of consciousness arising through the corresponding sense doors (eye,...body). Each of these sense process lasts only for seventeen moments of consciousness, the duration of what we call matter, much less than the shorter instant one can possibly imagine, not enough for people or objects to be seen or words to be read, for words or songs to be heard, for this or that food to be tasted, perfume to be smelled, for this or that ache to cause affliction. All these are concepts wich are remembered afterwards, by thinking, during the many mind door processes that follow each sense door one, with many bhavanga/life-continuum consciousness arising and falling away in between each single process. There is a simile in tipitaka, employed by Khun Sujin in Survey of paramattha dhammas, where the first mind door process following a sense door one is compared to the shadow of a bird alighting on a tree branch appearing on the ground, it follows up istantly and invariably. When thinking is plesant it means that consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, and either attachment, lobha (in case of akusala thinking), or detachment (alobha, in case of kusala thinking). While when thinking is unpleasant thinking can only be akusala, and must be arising along with dosa, aversion. When thinking is neither pleasant nor unpleasant, consciousness can be (but not necessarily) accompanied either by attachment/lobha (in case it's akusala), or alobha (in cases it's kusala). For each single consciousness and its accompanying factors arising there are specific conditions that caused their arising, likewise for the consciousness that follows up immediately after the one that has just fallen away. Trying to control or direct these realities on a self basis I think can be compared to pouring petrol on a wood fire on a hot summer windy day in order to control or direct it... As Lukas pointed out the understanding of realities is a long process, not one to rush into; another image that Khun Sujin employs to stress this truth is that of the knife's handle, wearing off, unnoticebly and naturally, by its use. Alberto #126091 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:50 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Off topic: WIFI: Was: Dhamma Wasteland dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al Unfortunately, I will not return to Thailand until after I migrate from the Philadelphia Area to my Texas Hill Country home... when it gets too cold in Texas for me, I will fly to Thailand for the rest of the winter!!! Hopefully, sometime in the future, I will be in Thailand when yawl are in Thailand... peace... yours in the dhamma-vinaya, ChuckTo: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: sarahprocterabbott@... Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 10:26:10 +0000 Subject: [dsg] Re: Off topic: WIFI: Was: Dhamma Wasteland Hi Chuck, Many thx for your helpful message and suggestions. Also for kindly saying you'll look forward to messages from Poland. We're off to Bangkok for a week on Thursday first.... I'll see what Lukas finds out about the wifi first and go from there. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > Chuck: In my USA/Canada/international travels, I carry an Ethernet cable and a WiFi antenna which plugs into my laptop. > > Many properties have only the Ethernet connection. And, even new properties do not have the best WiFi signal strength; hence, I bring my external antenna for the weak signals. > > Look forward to your messages from Poland. <..> #126092 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:56 am Subject: Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Clearly a sotapanna has no need for any abstention from such wrong speech > or deeds in the course of his/her livelihood because at the moment of > lokuttara (supramundane) path consciousness, any such inclination to wrong > livelihood has been eradicated for good and sila of this kind has been > perfected. It seems like the important point is that the sotapanna would not only not have the inclination to do anything harmful or evil, but would also not engage in such activities. He would only be helping others from a kusala standpoint without regard to what the others might be doing [ie, without negative reaction, which is also akusala.] I don't think you would say that a sotapanna could kill someone because it is his duty in the military, but he could only support others. If so, his ability to work in the military would be constrained by the intention not to harm any beings. I could even imagine a scenario in which the sotapanna would naturally help the wounded of the opposing army. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #126093 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:56 am Subject: How certain things "actually work" (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125986) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: As regards how the transmission of accumulations from one citta to the next "actually works", this is not something that is anywhere explained as far as I know. > > > > Curiosity would no doubt like to know, but whether that information is necessary for the development of the path is another matter. > > Rob E: It doesn't seem like a matter of mere curiosity to me at all. It seems like an enormous gap in understanding if even the basic mechanism of the most basic operation of cittas is a complete blank, and in addition, doesn't make logical sense. How is that not an obstacle to understanding? > =============== J: The question, as I see it, is whether it's information or knowledge that is necessary or useful to awareness of the characteristic of a presently arising dhamma. Regarding the question of whether or not it "makes logical sense", I think we need to be careful about making judgements about the teachings based on such values. There are many things in the suttas that people who are intelligent but have no appreciation for the teachings might say do not make logical sense ;-)) > =============== > Rob E: I have no idea why the writers of the commentaries would explain the operation of cittas and cetasikas in such grueling detail and have no second thought about omitting the basic operation of how cittas that fall away completely are able to condition the next citta arising or how they transmit tendencies and accumulations after they are already completely gone. Why isn't it explained? I can't imagine a good reason. > =============== J: Regarding "how cittas that fall away completely are able to condition the next citta arising", that is not how I would characterise the relationship being discussed. The relationship is just a reflection of the fixed law that there can be only 1 dhamma at a time, meaning that the preceding one must have fallen away before the succeeding one can arise. So it's the *falling away of* the preceding citta that is the condition for the *arising of* the succeeding one (not a matter of citta A which has already fallen away determining anything about the nature of citta B). Regarding "how they transmit tendencies and accumulations after they are already completely gone", again, since the 2 cittas are said to be contiguous (i.e., no gap in between), it doesn't hae to be a case of a citta that has already fallen away `doing' something. And I still don't see that the further information you would like to have (over and above the fact that this is what happens) is of any particular significance to the development of awareness/insight. > =============== > Rob E: I am really shocked. I was sure that you would just give me a basic sketch of how this takes place. I didn't realize this is among the "great unknowns" that we don't need to know and shouldn't worry about. > > If we are told that one citta must fall away completely for another one to arise -- I also have no idea why that is necessary, but I do know that there is a law for whatever reason that there can only be one dhamma at a time -- and yet the fallen-away citta conditions a new one for unknown reasons, and transmits accumulations also by some unknown mechanism, this seems to me like an invitation to ignorance. > =============== J: I don't understand "invitation to ignorance". There is so much about which we will forever remain ignorant, and I don't see that this matters as long as it's not ignorance that needs to be dispelled in order for enlightenment to be attained, i.e., ignorance of the true nature of arising dhammas in terms of their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, or of their wholly conditioned nature. I get the impression that you disagree with one or both of these propositions. If that's the case, it would help if you could state how you see the matter yourself, and the basis for that view. Jon #126094 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:06 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (125986) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: But we have to know what needs to be directly understood in order for the path to be developed, what does not need to be directly understood but can be understood intellectually or by inference, and what does not need not be known because it is not information or knowledge that is essential to the development of the path. > > Rob E: And you don't think we need to directly know how one citta conditionns the next, and how one citta's falling away conditions the next one arising? This is superfluous information that is not to be known directly, even at the point when we can actually experience one citta falling away and the next arising? If we don't understand this, how can we understand anything about how cittas are actually conditioned? We can only experience a single citta, then a gap where we don't know what on earth is taking place, then another citta mysteriously coming into existence out of nowhere? That is not knowledge, that is ignorance, as far as I can tell. > =============== J: Well, there are 24 different conditions mentioned in the texts. I have set out at the end of this message part of the entry in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist dictionary for the term `paccaya'. Note particularly: "Manifold are the ways in which one thing, or one occurrence, may be the condition for some other thing, or occurrence." and "Absence-condition (natthi-paccaya) refers to consciousness, etc., which has just passed, and which thus forms the necessary condition for the immediately following stage of consciousness by giving it an opportunity to arise." If you'd like to learn more about the 24 conditions, there's always the Patthana (last book of the Abhidhamma), where they are dealt with in detail :-)) > =============== > > J: As regards how the the 'complete falling away' of one citta conditions the arising of the next one, all I can offer on that is that if "the way things are" is that only 1 citta of a given stream of cittas can arise at any time, then obviously citta A must fall away before citta B can arise, and in that sense it can be said that the falling away of citta A is a condition for the arising of citta B. > > Rob E: But that gives no idea at all as to how something that is gone can condition something else to come into existence. We're just supposed to think that is fine, with no explanation? Doesn't make sense to me. > =============== J: Regarding "how something that is gone can condition something else to come into existence", that is not the sense in which a successor citta is conditioned by its predecessor. See the description of conditions given by Nyanatiloka below. > =============== > > Rob E: What you seem to be saying is that detailed knowledge and direct experience are the things that lead to enlightenment, but where there are gigantic gaps in understanding of the most basic operations of cittas, faith in the written word of the teachings will do just fine - no knowledge or experience necessary in such a case. We'll just take the word of those who say "that's just the way it is. No one knows why." > =============== J: We are not expected to take anything on faith; that would not be in accordance with the Buddha's teaching. On the other hand, there's only so much of the teachings we can comprehend, even intellectually, at our present level of understanding. We need to be realistic, and patient. > =============== > > J: We should not be too concerned about knowing what is beyond our capacity to know :-)) > > Rob E: Well the teachings are full of explanations of that which we are not currently able to know ourselves. Isn't that the point of the teachings - to point us towards that knowledge? And with no explanation for why such a paradoxical operation is able to take place, it seems like a giant and very important gap in the teachings of Abhidhamma. > =============== J: Regarding, "Isn't that the point of the teachings - to point us towards that which we are not currently able to know?", yes, but only towards those things the knowledge of which is necessary or useful for the understanding of dhammas. So not anything and everything, by any means (and not even everything about dhammas themselves). > =============== > Rob E: Keeping in mind that the Buddha never said that only one citta can exist at a time, or that the previous one has to fall away completely, it is up to the Abhidhamma writers and commentators to explain why such a situation is necessary and also how it takes place. I don't think it's very reasonable to be expected to swallow such a parodox that is not even explained, and that is corollary to the Buddha's teachings, but not spoken about in sutta. > =============== J: Here you seem to be suggesting that it's the credibility of the commentaries that is the issue. That's fine, but it's a different issue to that of relevance to the path. Jon From Nyanatiloka's `Buddhist Dictionary': ************************************************* paccaya Manifold are the ways in which one thing, or one occurrence, may be the condition for some other thing, or occurrence. In the Patthaana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (comprising 6 large vols. in the Siamese edition), these 24 modes of conditionality are enumerated and explained, and then applied to all conceivable mental and physical phenomena and occurrences, and thus their conditioned nature is demonstrated. The 24 modes of conditionality are: 1. Root condition: hetu paccaya 2. Object: aarammana 3. Predominance: adhipati 4. Priority: anantara 5. Contiguity: samanantara 6. Co-nascence: sahajaata 7. Mutuality: a~n~nama~n~na 8. Support: nissaya 9. Decisive Support: upanissaya 10. Pre-nascene: purejaata 11. Post-nascene: pacchaajaata 12. Repitition: aasevana 13. Karma: kamma 14. Karma-result: vipaaka 15. Nutriment: aahaara 16. Faculty: indriya 17. Jhaana: jhaana 18. Path: magga 19. Associaton: sampayutta 20. Dissociation: vippayutta 21. Presence: atthi 22. Absence: natthi 23. Disappearance: vigata 24. Non-disappearance: avigata (4-5) Proximity and contiguity (or immediacy)-condition (anantara and samanantara-paccaya) - both being identical - refer to any state of consciousness and mental phenomena associated with them, which are the conditions for the immediately following stage in the process of consciousness. For example, in the visual process, eye-consciousness is for the immediately following mind element - performing the function of receiving the visible object - a condition by way of contiguity; and so is this mind-element for the next following mind-consciousness element, performing the function of investigating the object, etc. (22) Absence-condition (natthi-paccaya) refers to consciousness, etc., which has just passed, and which thus forms the necessary condition for the immediately following stage of consciousness by giving it an opportunity to arise. Cf. No. 4. (23) Disappearance-condition (vigata-paccaya) is identical with No. 22. ************************************************* #126095 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:21 pm Subject: SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (6) philofillet Dear Group Pt. 2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "In the Buddhist Manual of Psychological Ethics (Dhamma-sanagani;Book I, part I, 6-7) several synonyms for citta have been given. Citta is called 'mind' (mano or maanasa), 'heart' (hadaya), 'that which is pure' (pandara), 'mind-base' (manaayatana) 'faculty of mind' (manindriya), 'consciousness' (vinnana), 'the khanda of consciousness' (vinnannakhanda) and 'the element of mind-consciousness' (mano-vinnana dhaatu.) The Buddha used several synonyms for citta so that the characteristic of citta that is common to everybody could be understood. Citta is a reality, it is an element that experiences something, but it is difficult to understand what exactly the characteristic is of the element that experiences. People may more or less understand what citta is; they know that it is the mind, which is common to everybody, but if one only knows this and does not really investigate the nature of citta, one will know at which moment citta occurs." (52) (end of passage) Ph: "It is difficult to understand what exactly the characteristic is of the element that experiences." Phil #126096 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:08 pm Subject: Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > Both models capture the flavor, Generally, when people speak of > causality, they assume some sort of (hidden) "causal force". My view, and I > believe the Buddha's teaching, does not presume such a thing, but is a more > matter-of-fact scenario. The Theravadin academic, David J. Kalupahana, views > this/that-conditionality exactly in this manner, and I think his > understanding is correct as an expression of the Dhamma. In his book "Buddhist > Philosophy, A Historical Analysis" he reports the following: "In the 'Discourse on > Causal Relations,' the Buddha mentions four characteristics of causality: > (1) objectivity (tathata), (2) necessity (avitathata), (3) invariability > (ana~n~nathata) and (4) conditionality (idappaccayata)" > ------------------------------------------------------------- That is interesting. I wonder what the actual definition of conditionality is among those four factors of causality? I would think it is something like 'a' acting as a condition or partial cause for 'b' to arise, or something like that. I also don't quite understand 'tathata' as 'objectivity,' or as an aspect of causality. Tathata is usually translated as "thusness" or "suchness," which I think has to do with the direct experience of what exists [and a direct understanding of its true nature.] Perhaps that is an 'objective' experience of what is, but it is not 'objectivity' in the usual sense of a correct factual understanding. Do you have a sense of how this applies to causality? What role does tathata play in that situation? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126097 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kenh3 upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/22/2012 1:08:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > HCW: > Both models capture the flavor, Generally, when people speak of > causality, they assume some sort of (hidden) "causal force". My view, and I > believe the Buddha's teaching, does not presume such a thing, but is a more > matter-of-fact scenario. The Theravadin academic, David J. Kalupahana, views > this/that-conditionality exactly in this manner, and I think his > understanding is correct as an expression of the Dhamma. In his book "Buddhist > Philosophy, A Historical Analysis" he reports the following: "In the 'Discourse on > Causal Relations,' the Buddha mentions four characteristics of causality: > (1) objectivity (tathata), (2) necessity (avitathata), (3) invariability > (ana~n~nathata) and (4) conditionality (idappaccayata)" > ---------------------------------------------------------- That is interesting. I wonder what the actual definition of conditionality is among those four factors of causality? I would think it is something like 'a' acting as a condition or partial cause for 'b' to arise, or something like that. I also don't quite understand 'tathata' as 'objectivity,' or as an aspect of causality. Tathata is usually translated as "thusness" or "suchness," which I think has to do with the direct experience of what exists [and a direct understanding of its true nature.] Perhaps that is an 'objective' experience of what is, but it is not 'objectivity' in the usual sense of a correct factual understanding. Do you have a sense of how this applies to causality? What role does tathata play in that situation? -------------------------------------------------------- HCW: I wish I had a good answer! My guess is that the first characteristic, 'tathata', here means "actuality" in the sense of "not just perceived so". The other 3 characteristics strike me as related, with some overlap of meaning. Necessity would mean, I would suppose, that with any of the requisite conditions missing, the result will not occur. Invariability would mean, I suppose, that *whenever* all the requisite conditions so occur, the result, without fail, arises. As for the 4th condition, that strikes me as possibly redundant. Perhaps it has a connotation that emphasizes the condition -> result RELATION, per se, more than the other conditions. --------------------------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ==================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126098 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:57 pm Subject: "Serves You Right!" sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I was listening to a discussion on kamma a couple of days ago and keep remembering this phrase - "Serves you right!". A friend had had an accident and everyone was sympathetic. K.Sujin, while sympathetic too, was also stressing that when we (or anyone else) is suffering the results of past kamma - painful bodily feeling, diseases and so on, it "serves you right!" Usually we don't feel so sympathetic when someone's akusala cittas are killing, stealing or performing other kinds of kamma patha, but just when the results, the vipaka cittas are paying the price. "Serves you right!" "Serves them right!" Usually when we hear about someone's sickness or accident, like my friend in the coma, we feel sad and concerned. However, when there's enough confidence in kamma and vipaka, enough understanding of "Serves them right", there's no room for sadness at such times - just understanding and equanimity. Vipaka is very fair! We have to be brave and courageous to face up to the truth - the truth of the Dhamma, of the realities now - just as they are. Whatever results come, "Serves us right!" Metta Sarah p.s. off to Bkk in the morning - a dhamma discussion in the afternoon with Rob K, Mike nz and Sukin at our hotel. Will report back later.... ===== #126099 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How certain things "actually work" (was, Re: kenh3) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 22-aug-2012, om 3:56 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Rob E: I have no idea why the writers of the commentaries would > explain the operation of cittas and cetasikas in such grueling > detail and have no second thought about omitting the basic > operation of how cittas that fall away completely are able to > condition the next citta arising or how they transmit tendencies > and accumulations after they are already completely gone. Why isn't > it explained? I can't imagine a good reason. ------ N: Rob, I can see from your writing that it really is quite a point for you what you write above. The Yamaka, on anusayas, latent tendencies and its commentary gives many details how the latent tendencies can condition the arising of akusala citta. Han and I made quite a study of this and after having gone through it, it clarified many points in detail. For instance, latent tendencies lie dormant in each citta. They do not arise, but they lie dormant like microbes in a body which are not active but can become active when there is an opportunity. Also, the question why not every thing has been taught, the co, to the Yamaka; < The Teacher did not teach everything at all occasions. Depending on beings capacity of being taught and attaining enlightenment, he explained all dhammas wherever this was proper and he did not explain them where it was not proper.> ------- Nina. #126100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 22-aug-2012, om 4:06 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Rob E: Keeping in mind that the Buddha never said that only one > citta can exist at a time, ------ N: Each citta experiences an object, seeing experiences colour and hearing experiences sound. Can they arise at the same time? That would be very strange. -------- > R: or that the previous one has to fall away completely, it is up > to the Abhidhamma writers and commentators to explain why such a > situation is necessary and also how it takes place. I don't think > it's very reasonable to be expected to swallow such a parodox that > is not even explained, and that is corollary to the Buddha's > teachings, but not spoken about in sutta. > ------- N: I wonder whether I can add something that may help? I try: Nina. #126101 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (6) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 22-aug-2012, om 5:21 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: "It is difficult to understand what exactly the characteristic > is of the element that experiences." ----- N: Acharn would say: now, now. Isn't there an experience right now, like seeing, hearing? Then there is the element that experiences something, different from ruupa that does not know anything. Sound does not know: a citta hears me. ----- Nina. #126102 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:50 am Subject: Re: "Serves You Right!" philofillet Hi Sarah I guess there can be kusala 'serves you right' reflection with right understanding but how about if we think "you'll get yours" when we are bothered by someone's behaviour and assume future harsh vipaka for the person? I guess "serves you right" can involve less ill will than imagining future vipaka...and of course nobody knows in which lifetime the results of deeds will arise so unless we are getting eternalistic we can't assume vipaka will fall to that person. So "serves you right" can be kusala but not "you'll get yours", I guess. Phil #126103 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (6) philofillet Hi Nina > > > Ph: "It is difficult to understand what exactly the characteristic > > is of the element that experiences." > ----- > N: Acharn would say: now, now. Isn't there an experience right now, > like seeing, hearing? Then there is the element that experiences > something, different from ruupa that does not know anything. Sound > does not know: a citta hears me. > ----- > Nina. > Right now, a summer insect is singing and to me it seems the characteristic of the sound is what is known, not the hearing. But how is it known? Because there is citta that hears. This sort of thing can be studied and reflected on again and again in daily life in an unforced way if we are fortunate enough not to think it is self-evident... phil #126104 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:04 am Subject: How certain things "actually work" (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: The question, as I see it, is whether it's information or knowledge that is necessary or useful to awareness of the characteristic of a presently arising dhamma. Well I guess that would depend on whether the rising and falling of the dhamma [representing anicca,] is necessary to understand in order to clearly understand the three marks. If one can discern rising and falling, but not understand how conditions are created by the falling dhamma to condition the arising of the next, it seems like a blank in understanding of both rising of dhammas and conditionality to me. > Regarding the question of whether or not it "makes logical sense", I think we need to be careful about making judgements about the teachings based on such values. There are many things in the suttas that people who are intelligent but have no appreciation for the teachings might say do not make logical sense ;-)) That may or may not be a bit different for someone who is genuinely interested in the teachings but who sees an enormous gap in the ways in which dhammas rise and fall away. Perhaps the person who has 'no appreciation' for the teachings is a straw man in this case? > J: Regarding "how cittas that fall away completely are able to condition the next citta arising", that is not how I would characterise the relationship being discussed. The relationship is just a reflection of the fixed law that there can be only 1 dhamma at a time, meaning that the preceding one must have fallen away before the succeeding one can arise. So it's the *falling away of* the preceding citta that is the condition for the *arising of* the succeeding one (not a matter of citta A which has already fallen away determining anything about the nature of citta B). That would be fine and not a cause for concern if the accumulations of dhamma A were not being so neatly transmitted to the next dhamma B. If one is to understand conditionality on the dhamma level, this idea of all the old accumulations coming out of nowhere to reinhabit dhamma B is pretty weird. A magical recreation of that which has fallen away, or what? > Regarding "how they transmit tendencies and accumulations after they are already completely gone", again, since the 2 cittas are said to be contiguous (i.e., no gap in between), it doesn't have to be a case of a citta that has already fallen away `doing' something. No gap inbetween what? Between the falling away of dhamma A and the arising of dhamma B? There must then be an exact sub-moment when falling away is complete and the next arising begins. I wonder if somehow at that sub-moment the accumulations are communicated via cetasikas. I realize that your response will probably be that I don't need to know that. Still, there are many other such details that are given that seem equivalent, but not necessarily as important as this situation of transmitting accumulations, or their re-arising in a subsequent dhamma, since this is the exact mechanism by which samsara continues and conditionality takes place over the long sweep of samsara. And I still don't see that the further information you would like to have (over and above the fact that this is what happens) is of any particular significance to the development of awareness/insight. I guess it depends on what is necessary for development of insight. If anicca and conditionality are involved, this information seems important to me. The nature of dhammas includes the functioning of cetasikas and the passing on of accumulations, all contained in this moment of falling away and arising of dhammas. > J: I don't understand "invitation to ignorance". There is so much about which we will forever remain ignorant, and I don't see that this matters as long as it's not ignorance that needs to be dispelled in order for enlightenment to be attained, i.e., ignorance of the true nature of arising dhammas in terms of their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, or of their wholly conditioned nature. Anicca and conditioning are contained in the moment of falling away of dhamma A and arising of dhamma B. It is a different sort of ignorance than not knowing all the details of past lives, or not knowing the exact details of every bit of kamma and how it translates to vipaka. It is the detail of how dhammas function and implicates the nature of anicca and the nature of accumulations on the most basic level. It is how samsara continues from moment to moment. > I get the impression that you disagree with one or both of these propositions. If that's the case, it would help if you could state how you see the matter yourself, and the basis for that view. I think I agree that there are areas of ignorance that need not be dispelled to go forward on the path. I suppose only a Buddha has no ignorance of any aspect of reality, but that does point to an upper level of complete omniscience against which other attainments are relatively lesser. To have ignorance about basic functioning of dhammas seems like a pretty big gap to me. For the other proposition, I understand that the temporary functioning of a dhamma and its instant falling away, which demonstrates its conditioned nature, unsatisfactoriness, and its nature as non-self, is most important for enlightenment. But the way in which dhammas fall away and how conditioning causes a new dhamma to arise with reconstituted accumulations of attachment and ignorance seems to me to be an important part of that understanding. The Buddha gives quite a bit of importance to what causes ignorance and suffering to be perpetuated. The way in which accumulations are conditioned to reconstitute in an endless series of dhammas seems to me central to this understanding. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #126105 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kenh3 epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ...In his [Kalupahana's] book > "Buddhist > > Philosophy, A Historical Analysis" he reports the following: "In the > 'Discourse on > > Causal Relations,' the Buddha mentions four characteristics of > causality: > > (1) objectivity (tathata), (2) necessity (avitathata), (3) invariability > > (ana~n~nathata) and (4) conditionality (idappaccayata)" > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > That is interesting. I wonder what the actual definition of conditionality > is among those four factors of causality? I would think it is something > like 'a' acting as a condition or partial cause for 'b' to arise, or > something like that. > > I also don't quite understand 'tathata' as 'objectivity,' or as an aspect > of causality. Tathata is usually translated as "thusness" or "suchness," > which I think has to do with the direct experience of what exists [and a > direct understanding of its true nature.] Perhaps that is an 'objective' > experience of what is, but it is not 'objectivity' in the usual sense of a > correct factual understanding. Do you have a sense of how this applies to > causality? What role does tathata play in that situation? > -------------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > I wish I had a good answer! > My guess is that the first characteristic, 'tathata', here means > "actuality" in the sense of "not just perceived so". That is a good answer! Thanks. That makes sense. > The other 3 characteristics > strike me as related, with some overlap of meaning. Necessity would mean, > I would suppose, that with any of the requisite conditions missing, the > result will not occur. Invariability would mean, I suppose, that *whenever* > all the requisite conditions so occur, the result, without fail, arises. Yes, I would agree on both, and I think those two characteristics are the easiest to understand. They do seem to define what "causal" would have to mean in order to actually have that functional relationship to the result that follows. > As > for the 4th condition, that strikes me as possibly redundant. Perhaps it has > a connotation that emphasizes the condition -> result RELATION, per se, > more than the other conditions. That is sensible too. The fact that the two are related in creating the outcome would be worth emphasizing. The other attributes don't directly show that conditions that exist in A develop or lead to the the existence and attributes of B. More than simple causality, conditionality as a sub-attribute also suggests that there is a micro-conditional action taking place that may lead to a fluid sense of resultant developments. It has a more living, organic sense to it than simply saying that a static cause A leads to a static result B, and points to the process by which conditions lead to more conditions in an ongoing development. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #126106 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:07 am Subject: thinking about seeing luraya87 hej! when i am thinking about visible object when it appears, it is thinking. i can think about that thinking is thinking. there are all these concepts. and when i am thinking of that i feel like that there is the wanting to be aware right here and now. what to do, also just see that it is a conditioned reality? it is so helpful to listen to the discourses with ajahn sujin and at the same time there is that habbit pattern of the mind that wants to grab everything, now :) so difficult all the best to you luraya #126107 From: Lukas Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:43 am Subject: Be aware just a little szmicio Dear friends, This is old Nina post, I thought of it and hopefuly I found it: --------------- ----------------- L: I like this: "being aware just a little". Bhante Dhammadharo also says why sati(awarness) doesnt arise? cause there are not yet enough accumulation for sati to arise, but there are accumulations of attachement, that blocks sati to arise. This is the Truth, no wish to have more sati, just knowing that it is there, attachement and no awarness. this is a beginning, when we are truthful with ourselves. When there are conditions for sati to arise it will arise, when there are conditions for attachment it will arise. this is dhamma, this is the truth. We dont change things. We see dukkha that follows and this must be like that. Best wishes Lukas #126108 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:15 am Subject: Re: Be aware just a little philofillet Hi Lukas (and Luraya) Very good post, be aware just a little. As Luraya said in her post, there is also the mind's habitial tendency to want and try to hold on to things (when listening to discussions is what she mentionned) but we can be aware of that too. More and more awareness, little by little, (without hungering for results, the hungering which is the way of the world but we will be aware of tge desire for results at wwork through the self too) little by little more and more awareness of how there are just dhammas arising, and we are free from the error that this awareness is only developed when sitting in a special place, with a special technique...people forget that the shortcuts to understanding (Access to Insight, the name of that website says it all) they look for are just lobha. Phil #126109 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:18 am Subject: Re: "Serves You Right!" philofillet Hi again, Sarah and all I guess there can also be kusala "serves you right" reflection when we observe (with friendly cittas) the behaviour of animals as well.. Phil #126110 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:36 am Subject: Re: Be aware just a little philofillet Hi again Correction: > we are free from the error that this awareness is only developed when sitting in a special place, with a special technique...people forget that the shortcuts to understanding (Access to Insight, the name of that website says it all) they look for are just lobha. > Not "people forget", rather "there is not yet awareness that" the shortcuts are all about lobha with ditthi. Phil #126111 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 ashkenn2k Dear Rob E On one aspect about intentional, we just have to be careful even though we thought we may be unintentional. It could lead to misconduct also Commentary to Brahamajala Sutta on False speech <>. There are four factors to false speech, an untrue situation, the though of deceiving, the corresponding effort and communication of the meaning to another We may thing we are just making a casual joke on something unreal, but it could be a fault. At times we may think we are not deceiving, however, we could have done it out of habit. So just have to be mindful. cheers KC > #126112 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:13 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Lust - Other text on Abandoning of Lust ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (Vitakka-Santhana Sutta) <> KC #126113 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:14 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Anger ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<(2) Ill-will 1252. The arising of ill-will comes about through unwise bringing to mind in regard to the sign of resentment (patighanimitta). Herein, resentment is the "sign of resentment" and also the object of resentment is the "sign of resentment". "Unwise bringing to mind" has one characteristic throughout. Because of employing it much in regard to that sign, ill-will arises. 1253. Hence the Blessed One said: There is the sign of resentment, bhikkhus. Unwise bringing to mind therein is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill-will, or for the growth and increase of arisen ill-will. (S v 103). 1254. But its abandoning comes about through wise bringing to mind in regard to the mind deliverance of amity. Herein, when "amity" is stated, both absorption and access are applicable; but when "mind deliverance" [is stated], absorption only. Wise bringing to mind has the aforesaid characteristics. Because of employing it much in regard to that [object], ill-will comes to be abandoned. 1255. Hence the Blessed One said: There is the mind deliverance of amity, bhikkhus. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the non-arising of unarisen ill-will, or for the abandoning of arisen ill-will not for its growth and increase' (S v105)>> KC #126114 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:00 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Six things lead to the abandoning of ill-will ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1256. Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: (1) the acquiring of the sign of amity, (2) devotion to the development of amity, (3) reviewing ownership of kamma, (4) much reflection, (5) good friendship, (6) suitable talk. 1257. (1) For ill-will is abandoned in one who acquires amity in any of the forms of specific or general directional pervasion; 1258. (2) and also in one who develops amity by limited and unlimited directional pervasion; 1259. (3) also in one who reviews the ownership of his own or others' kamma thus: fcAnd if you are angry with him, what will you do? Can you destroy his virtuous conduct, etc.? Have you not come by reason of your own kamma, and will you not go, too, by reason of your own kamma? Becoming angry with another is like wanting to strike another by picking up red-hot coals, a hot poker, excrement and so on. And if he is angry with you, what will he do? Can he destroy your virtuous conduct, etc.? He has come by reason of his own kamma and will go, too, by reason of his own kamma. Like an unaccepted present, like a handful of dust thrown against the wind, [272| this anger of his will fall back on his own head only;' 1260. (4) also in one who remains in reflection after reviewing the ownership of kamma. 1261. (5) Ill-will is abandoned also in one who cultivates good friends who delight in the development of amity like the Elder Assagutta. 1262. (6) Also it is abandoned through suitable talk while standing sitting, etc., which is based on amity. 1263. Hence it was said [above]: "Six things lead to the abandoning of ill-will: the acquiring of the sign of amity, devotion to the development of amity, reviewing the ownership of kamma, much reflec tion, good friendship, suitable talk". 1264. But he understands that it is through the Never-Returner path that there comes to be the future non-arising of the ill-will abandoned by means of these six things.>> Commentary to Satipatthana <>. **Details of development of amity in the directions could be found in Visud chapter IX, 44 - 58 KC #126115 From: Ken O Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:13 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Another text on abandoning of ill-will ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (Vitakka-Santhana Sutta) <> KC #126116 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:19 pm Subject: considering the dhamma luraya87 in one discourse with ajahn sujin the topic is coming to considering the dhamma and i get confused: "if there is considering without any understanding or with wrong understanding we cannot call it right considering of the dhamma." but if there is no understanding yet, how can we ever consider righltly? i thought understanding was developed through considering. #126117 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:17 pm Subject: How certain things "actually work" (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (126104) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: The question, as I see it, is whether it's information or knowledge that is necessary or useful to awareness of the characteristic of a presently arising dhamma. > > Rob E: Well I guess that would depend on whether the rising and falling of the dhamma [representing anicca,] is necessary to understand in order to clearly understand the three marks. If one can discern rising and falling, but not understand how conditions are created by the falling dhamma to condition the arising of the next, it seems like a blank in understanding of both rising of dhammas and conditionality to me. > =============== J: There are 2 separate matters here: the characteristics of dhammas and the manner in which conditionality perpetuates life in samsara. The former are the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, while the latter is found in the teaching on Dependent Origination ("DO"). For both, the understanding involved develops with the development of awareness of dhammas. > =============== > Rob E: That would be fine and not a cause for concern if the accumulations of dhamma A were not being so neatly transmitted to the next dhamma B. If one is to understand conditionality on the dhamma level, this idea of all the old accumulations coming out of nowhere to reinhabit dhamma B is pretty weird. A magical recreation of that which has fallen away, or what? > =============== J: Regarding, "If one is to understand conditionality on the dhamma level, this idea of all the old accumulations coming out of nowhere to reinhabit dhamma B is pretty weird", then do you also have difficulty with the idea of today's vipaka cittas possibly being the result of kamma committed in previous lifetimes, as that could also be described as "pretty weird" :-)) > =============== > Rob E: No gap inbetween what? Between the falling away of dhamma A and the arising of dhamma B? There must then be an exact sub-moment when falling away is complete and the next arising begins. I wonder if somehow at that sub-moment the accumulations are communicated via cetasikas. I realize that your response will probably be that I don't need to know that. Still, there are many other such details that are given that seem equivalent, but not necessarily as important as this situation of transmitting accumulations, or their re-arising in a subsequent dhamma, since this is the exact mechanism by which samsara continues and conditionality takes place over the long sweep of samsara. > =============== J: Regarding "this situation of transmitting accumulations, or their re-arising in a subsequent dhamma, is the exact mechanism by which samsara continues and conditionality takes place over the long sweep of samsara", not really. For an understanding of the mechanism by which samsara continues and conditionality takes place over the long sweep of samsara one needs to understand DO, which involves the operation of multiple different conditions for each link and different periods of time. Vastly more complex than the operation of the single kind of condition we've been discussing. > =============== > Rob E: The Buddha gives quite a bit of importance to what causes ignorance and suffering to be perpetuated. The way in which accumulations are conditioned to reconstitute in an endless series of dhammas seems to me central to this understanding. > =============== J: Think about it for a moment. If accumulated tendencies are not passed on, then each citta moment would be a `blank sheet' in terms of habituation. But in any event, to my thinking it's sufficient to know whether or not accumulations are passed on, without having to know the exact mechanism involved. Do you for example know the mechanism by which kamma performed in a past life conditions vipaka in this life? Jon #126118 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:56 pm Subject: Re: thinking about seeing jonoabb Hi Luraya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Luraya Lukas wrote: > > hej! > > when i am thinking about visible object when it appears, it is thinking. i can think about that thinking is thinking. there are all these concepts. and when i am thinking of that i feel like that there is the wanting to be aware right here and now. > =============== J: Yes, that's how it is for everyone. A lot of thinking of different kinds, including thinking accompanied by wanting there to be awareness (a form of lobha). Sometimes the characteristic of thinking is more predominant, sometimes the characteristic of lobha, sometime the characteristic of wrong view, and so on. > =============== what to do, also just see that it is a conditioned reality? > =============== J: We can understand, at an intellectual level, that these are all conditioned realities. But actually *seeing* things as such is something that only panna, when developed, can do. > =============== > it is so helpful to listen to the discourses with ajahn sujin and at the same time there is that habbit pattern of the mind that wants to grab everything, now :) > so difficult > =============== J: You are quite right, so difficult! But nonetheless possible, given time and the right conditions! There's no quick answer. Looking forward to meeting you. Jon #126119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Be aware just a little nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 22-aug-2012, om 19:43 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > When there are conditions for sati to arise it will arise, when > there are conditions for attachment it will arise. this is dhamma, > this is the truth. We dont change things. We see dukkha that > follows and this must be like that. ------ N: You expressed this very well. We do not change things. Whatever arises is anattaa, good to remember. Nina. #126120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] considering the dhamma nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 23-aug-2012, om 7:19 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Acharn: "if there is considering without any understanding or with > wrong understanding we cannot call it right considering of the > dhamma." > > but if there is no understanding yet, how can we ever consider > righltly? i thought understanding was developed through considering. ------- N: It begins with listening, listening to the right friend in Dhamma. In this way there can be more understanding of what one hears, that is the beginning. Listening and then also considering what one hears: seeing just experiences that what impinges on the eyesense, only that. People do not impinge on the eyesense. When it seems that we see people we are in the sea of images, concepts. Little by little we can learn the difference between seeing and thinking. ----- You also wrote: L: when i am thinking of that i feel like that there is the wanting to be aware right here and now. what to do, also just see that it is a conditioned reality? ----- N: It arises and thus it is conditioned. We cannot change it as Lukas said. ------- L: it is so helpful to listen to the discourses with ajahn sujin and at the same time there is that habbit pattern of the mind that wants to grab everything, now :) ------ N: Good to see that this is impossible. Here we need patience. For how many aeons did we accumulate ignorance? ------ Nina. Nina. #126121 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:14 pm Subject: Tea party in Bangkok with Mike nz, Robert and Sukin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've just uploaded a pic in the "DSG meetings" album (to be found in the photo section). We spend a very relaxed afternoon having dhamma discussion (and friendly chatter) with Mike nz who was quite active on DSG for a while, a couple of years or so ago, also Rob K and Sukin. None of us had met Mike before. He works as a physics professor at a university in New Zealand and is a moderator at another forum, Dhamma Wheel. I'd love Mike, Sukin, Rob or Jon to add any of their reflections or comments. To try and jog memories and share a little, let me mention the following: Main topics of discussion were (as I recall): - whether one can say one approach or understanding of the Dhamma is the only correct one or whether all approaches are more-or-less the same, leading in the same direction. - science, physics, philosophy of science and whether pursuing scientific research is just like following any other activity without there necessarily being any understanding or awareness at all of realities - kamma, vipaka and whether thinking of those affected by floods in Thailand as being due to kamma or reading stories in the Dhp commentary such as the one about the crow or Jatakas about kamma are of any value in being a support for the growth of understanding and awareness. All of this vs those who stress the importance of understanding 6 doorways and seeing as vipaka at this moment. Are the 'basics' enough? Are ken H's views right or wrong? (side-discussion about getting agitated about other people's views and the reality at such a time.) - and streams - "Serves you right!" - a much appreciated comment by some. We all agreed that one needs to be careful when and with whom one makes such a comment, however! Easily misunderstood. - meditation, methods and whether our visiting K.Sujin, having discussions together is any different from the method of going on a retreat or following a meditation subject. - awareness all the time of everything? What does it mean? What is the motivation? Having more kusala, more metta, more awareness? - Can anyone make anger arise now or now? - The importance of listening and what's meant by this? Listening now with panna - not the amount of time or texts. - naturally arising awareness vs directed awareness. - Seeing now. Visible object now. Not being led astray by ideas of another time, another place. Whatever reality is conditioned at this very moment. **** Metta Sarah ===== #126122 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:22 am Subject: meditation luraya87 hej again! thank you for all your answers and i am looking forward to the dhammameeting with you who are coming! another question arose while meditating: after having listened to some discourses i usually sit and reflect upon what i have heard or observe how thoughts and feelings are arising and falling away. nowdays i feel there is less attachment in the meditation than there was before but i don't see why there should be more attachment while meditating than when listening to the dhamma. i am listening because "i" want to understand, which already is wrong understaning. but do you think that meditation itself can be "harmful" in order to develop understanding? thank you! luraya #126123 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:45 am Subject: Re: qu from Luraya sprlrt Hi Lukas, > L: I think ditthi cetasika, wrong view that is always accompanied by lobha is contition Wrong Path, I think this is opposite of Right Path, that is 4th Noble Truth. But yes wrong view comes with lobha and ignorance and it covers the truth so much. I think that opposite of wrong view is right view , the first factor ofnoble truth. So no much to do, just developing more right view and right thinking, the 2 first factors of 8fold Path. I think when there is right view all the factors are there of 8fold path like right thinking, sometimes right sila and neccessery right effort , right awarness and right concentration. Sometimes Buddha talked of 5fold Path, cause silla doesnt arise all the time with the Path. The penny a day is what Acharn said in her dhamma talks, I mostly pointed this to Luraya, not to be to much into hasten anything. But this is good reminder for all of us. And no one actually has control over weather I will hasten or not the development of right undersatanding. It just follows its own way, no way to choose. Ditthi is bound to arise, by conditions, until sotapattimagga lokuttara kusala cittas arise, by conditions, then the resultant lokuttara vipaaka citta, arising right next to lokuttara kusala ones, eradicates ditthi completely, and other defilements as well. The Expositor, p.190, groups together three akusala dhammas: tanha (lobha), ditthi and avijja as having in common the aspect of diving (oghas) into their object. Even if ditthi is not a root, it is very strong in this respect, like lobha and avijja. I remember last summer in Bkk RobK asked Khun Sujin if animals can have micchaa ditthi, her answer was no, they can't. What makes us different, in terms of paramattha dhammas, from animals? One difference is patisandhi/bhavanga citta, which is vipaaka kusala citta with roots/sahetuka, at least two, alobha and adosa, for most human beings, while for animals is kaamaavacara akusala vipaaka citta without roots/ahetuka. Bhavanga, life-continuum, is also the mind door, through which we think and talk, using names (naama pa~n~natti). While animals can't think or speak in term of names, they still think, but different kind of concepts, gana pa~n~natti, mass-concepts. This also applies to small children, until their intellectual faculties develop. (See Khun Sujin Realities and concepts). We need names to express views (of course this doesn't mean that ditthi arises whenever we express a view or an opinion); the Buddha warned us especially against wrong views, micchaaditthi, which involve taking the wrong path, micchaamagga, like ahetukaa ditthi, views saying that there is no point in giving and doing other kusala kamma (that vipaaka is not the result of past kamma, and that kamma will not result in future vipaaka); another is siilabbatapaaraamasa, where siila refers to body and speech behaviour, like the naked ascetic or the one that behaved like a cow thinking that this was the way through which eradicate defilments. Yet another wrong view regarding the Dhamma is the view that asserts itself as the only one being true, and all others false. Alberto #126124 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:58 am Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Well, there are 24 different conditions mentioned in the texts. > I have set out at the end of this message part of the entry in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist dictionary for the term `paccaya'. Note particularly: > > "Manifold are the ways in which one thing, or one occurrence, may be the condition for some other thing, or occurrence." > > and > > "Absence-condition (natthi-paccaya) refers to consciousness, etc., which has just passed, and which thus forms the necessary condition for the immediately following stage of consciousness by giving it an opportunity to arise." > > If you'd like to learn more about the 24 conditions, there's always the Patthana (last book of the Abhidhamma), where they are dealt with in detail :-)) I would, but don't know when I'll have a copy of the Patthana handy, particularly in English. I've been barred from buying any more books til 2 conditions of my own have been met: a. Increase my business income [having a tough time at the moment] b. Get rid of some of the books that are blocking up our condo, or: c. Get us a bigger living space [dependent on condition a.] > > =============== > J: We are not expected to take anything on faith; that would not be in accordance with the Buddha's teaching. > > On the other hand, there's only so much of the teachings we can comprehend, even intellectually, at our present level of understanding. We need to be realistic, and patient. I'm actually pretty patient in terms of waiting for actual experience. I realize the path is long. Still, certain things that are jarring are hard to just let lie. As for realistic, well...not something I'm often accused of... > > =============== > J: Regarding, "Isn't that the point of the teachings - to point us towards that which we are not currently able to know?", yes, but only towards those things the knowledge of which is necessary or useful for the understanding of dhammas. So not anything and everything, by any means (and not even everything about dhammas themselves). Fair enough. > > =============== > > Rob E: Keeping in mind that the Buddha never said that only one citta can exist at a time, or that the previous one has to fall away completely, it is up to the Abhidhamma writers and commentators to explain why such a situation is necessary and also how it takes place. I don't think it's very reasonable to be expected to swallow such a parodox that is not even explained, and that is corollary to the Buddha's teachings, but not spoken about in sutta. > > =============== > > J: Here you seem to be suggesting that it's the credibility of the commentaries that is the issue. That's fine, but it's a different issue to that of relevance to the path. Trying to figure out whether those are totally separate issues or not is confusing my brain at the moment, so I think I'll have to just nod in agreement and continue on. Perhaps it would be helpful for me to see something on why there can only be one citta at a time. I know it's a mainstay of dhamma theory, but I don't think I've ever seen it explained. It goes to the way in which consciousness is defined in the Abhidhamma, as a discrete singular act that arises to make contact with an object. All those mechanics of falling away before the next arising, and the way in which accumulations are transmitted to the next citta, are formed and necessitated by that model. > In the Patthaana, the last book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (comprising 6 large vols. in the Siamese edition), these 24 modes of conditionality are enumerated and explained, and then applied to all conceivable mental and physical phenomena and occurrences, and thus their conditioned nature is demonstrated. ... I appreciate seeing the list of conditions. In and of themselves they are worth investigating. Maybe when I am able I can look at Nina's book on Conditions. And I'm sure K. Sujin's Survey would be excellent to go back to as well. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126125 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > The danger is in the accumulation of the tendency and taste. > > I guess the question that always arises for me in these sorts of cases is what seems to me to be an association between a conventional activity and the accumulation of akusala. ... S: I think that the more we understand about realities, paramattha dhammas, the less concerned we are with 'conventional activity'. We have confidence that what is important is the citta at this moment, the understanding now of whatever appears. It is only through understanding dhammas, including understanding kusala and akusala cittas, that kusala will develop and akusala will decline. Without any understanding, just speculation about various scenarios, we cannot say this. ... > It seems to accord with my usual view that conventional activities are sort of "broad-brush" shorthands for the dhammas involved and that the cetana that leads to drinking for instance, can then lead to harsh speech -- also conventional activity -- which then leads to accumulation of akusala on the dhamma level. Is this wrong? ... S: You call 'harsh speech' 'conventional activity', but actually harsh speech is akusala of a strength to condition speech intimation and other rupas. It all comes down to tendencies and accumulations. I agree that in most cases drinking alcohol leads to more akusala even though the person usually doesn't realize it! Better avoided. Metta Sarah ===== #126126 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > I haven't read them here (I've read satipatthana commentary a while ago so I remember some things). > > I do agree that understanding is crucial, anatta and all that. > When it comes to some parts, I prefer more modern terminology. ... S: Good - we can use our own words. As we agree, the understanding of anatta is essential. So here: > > > Commentary to the Fruits of Recluseship 105 - 107 > > > <<(iv) Clear comprehension of non-delusion is the clear comprehension which does not become deluded about going forward, etc. It should be understood as follows. > > > Herein, when going forward and returning, a bhikkhu does not become deluded about these actions like the blind and foolish worldling who deludedly thinks: "A self goes forward, the action of going forward is produced by a self," or "I go forward, the action of going forward is produced by me." <...> ... S: In other words, usually blinded by ignorance there's an idea that it's Alex, Sarah or a person who takes a walk, sits at the computer or performs other acts. In fact there are only ever mental and physical phenomena - namas and rupas - at any time. No self at all. Do we still agree? Metta Sarah ====== #126127 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, You weren't forgotten when the topic of kamma and its results came up yesterday with Rob & Sukin:-) Rob was annoyed that we never seem to disagree with you, so I mentioned our recent exchange! >________________________________ > From: Ken H >> S: Nina quoted the following for Rob E and I thought it might have touched on the discussions about the blind monk >------- > >KH: I defer to you and Nina on that. The quote refers to "pairs of results" but I can't even see what those pairs are. Is it showing that each Patimokkha rule has both a paramattha result and a pannatti result? .... S: It's just referring to a list of 'pairs' of good results of having the Patimokkha rules for monks. Of course, they are listed in conventional language, but as we know, there are in fact only ever 'paramattha results'. For example, the first 'pair' given is 'the excellence and well-being of the Order' The Sangha remains strong and dedicated to what it is there for - the teaching and preservation of the Dhamma - in other words, the development and teaching of satipatthana. .... >--------------- >> S: and whether his development of satipatthana was of any relevance. >--------------- > >KH: I wonder what relevance the sutta would have if it was about a monk who had *not* developed satipatthana. It would be telling us that outwardly observed activities are insufficient to determine a person's inner motives. But most of us knew that already - before we ever heard the Dhamma. ... S: Without hearing the teachings, do we really know that the 'good' or 'bad' just depends on the citta at this moment and that that citta is anatta? That our judgments and speculations about situations are totally useless? We think the problems in life are the other person's stepping on caterpillars, expounding their wrong views about kamma or whatever. In fact, all the problems come back to the citta now. ... > >I was saying to Rob E that an ariyan could not possibly be responsible for the death of a caterpillar – no matter what the conventional evidence might be. Even if the conventional evidence seemed irrefutable and damning we could still be assured that an ariyan's behaviour was totally free of akusala kamma-patha. ... S: I think we all agree on this. ... > >I think you and I disagree in our assessment of the conventional evidence against the monk. I find it compelling - I can't imagine how a blind person could choose to walk down a path in those circumstances without intending to put living beings at risk. And I think - or suggest as a possibility - that the sutta wanted us to see it that way. > >I suggest the suta was meant to make us to marvel at the Dhamma. We were meant to marvel at how the ariyan path made akusala kamma-patha impossible in any, and every, situation. > >To give a totally ridiculous example: an ariyan could be blowing people to bits with a machine gun while shouting "Die scum!" and he would still be totally free of akusala kamma-patha. We can't imagine how that situation could ever arise but, we must admit, that would be the case if it did. .... S: Agreed. I think where we disagreed was as to whether it's of any relevance in the example as to whether the blind monk had any attainment of not. Simply, he did not intend to kill - that was all. Not of any importance. .... >It's a silly question because we all (at dsg) know there ultimately no conventional results. But I still wonder why we bother talking about them. .... S: Depending on the speaker's or listener's understanding, we can use any language to point to ultimate realities, can't we? ... >There is no control, and therefore there can never be any efficacy – whatsoever! – in a rule. .... S: If you tell a child not to touch the hot stove is there no efficacy in the 'rule' because dhammas are anatta? .... Metta Sarah >> > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results that the >> > Observances were enjoined on his disciples by the Tathågata. What two? >> > The excellence and well-being of the Order... >> > The control of ill-conditioned monks and the comfort of good monks... >> > The restraint, in this very life, of the åsavas, guilt, faults, fears >> > and unprofitable states: and the protection against the same in a >> > future life. >> > Out of compassion for householders, and to uproot the factions of the >> > evilly disposed... >> > To give confidence to believers, and for the betterment of believers... >> > To establish true Dhamma, for the support of the Discipline... >> > Monks, it was to bring about these pairs of results.... #126128 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Ken O ob E and Sarah > >S: Yes, exactly. "I wish that political tyrant was out of the way" - akusala, dosa, but not kamma patha. No results. >> >> And then planning, plotting and attempting to kill, but being unsuccessful would be partial kamma patha, but not complete. >> >> So different degrees.... > >R: Thanks, Sarah, that makes sense. > >K: For ill will and harsh speech for it to be become kamma pattha, there must be a thought that wish a harm on another person. > ><....>>>The three constituent factors of this offence are: Another to be abused, angry thought, and the abuse>> S: Yes, good point - three factors as given at the end of the quote. For any akusala kamma-patha, there has to be the intention to harm the other in some way, plus the deed itself, such as when stealing or lying or abusing in anger. Thank you for your good quotes Metta Sarah ==== #126129 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:53 pm Subject: Re: qu from Luraya sprlrt Hi Lukas, (& all), I just wanted to add to my previous post that I don't think that when discussing Dhamma with an open mind, or when expressing one's doubts about aspects of the Dhamma which are not yet clear, wrong view is implied, on the contrary, I think that considering/discussing/clarifying the Dhamma is a necessary condition for right view to develop. Alberto #126130 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:58 pm Subject: Re: qu from Luraya jonoabb Hi Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > > Hi Lukas, (& all), > > I just wanted to add to my previous post that I don't think that > when discussing Dhamma with an open mind, or when expressing one's doubts about aspects of the Dhamma which are not yet clear, wrong view is implied, on the contrary, I think that considering/discussing/clarifying the Dhamma is a necessary condition for right view to develop. > J: Well said! I enjoyed reading your earlier post too. Looking forward to meeting again in a couple of weeks. Jon #126131 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] considering the dhamma jonoabb Hi Luraya Would just like to add a word to Nina's helpful answer. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Luraya, > Op 23-aug-2012, om 7:19 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > > Acharn: "if there is considering without any understanding or with > > wrong understanding we cannot call it right considering of the > > dhamma." > > > > but if there is no understanding yet, how can we ever consider > > righltly? i thought understanding was developed through considering. > ------- J: You are right about the importance of considering. What has been heard and understood intellectually needs to be considered and pondered over. But it's not as though there's "no understanding yet". Understanding gained/accumulated in previous lives is not lost. It is this previously accumulated understanding that supports our interest in the teachings in this lifetime. So we can have confidence that there can be right considering at times, as long as we continue to come into contact with the teachings through those who have a good understanding of the true Dhamma. But it all takes time ... :-)) Jon > N: It begins with listening, listening to the right friend in Dhamma. > In this way there can be more understanding of what one hears, that > is the beginning. Listening and then also considering what one hears: > seeing just experiences that what impinges on the eyesense, only > that. People do not impinge on the eyesense. When it seems that we > see people we are in the sea of images, concepts. Little by little we > can learn the difference between seeing and thinking. > ----- #126132 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 24-aug-2012, om 0:58 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I would, but don't know when I'll have a copy of the Patthana > handy, particularly in English. I've been barred from buying any > more books til 2 conditions of my own have been met: > > a. Increase my business income [having a tough time at the moment] > b. Get rid of some of the books that are blocking up our condo, or: > c. Get us a bigger living space [dependent on condition a.] ----- N: Meanwhile you could get the link to my "Conditions". It is like an intro. See Alan's web Zolag, or if any troubvle I send it as an attachment. Or I see that you have got it? Nina. #126133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] meditation nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 23-aug-2012, om 16:22 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > > another question arose while meditating: > after having listened to some discourses i usually sit and reflect > upon what i have heard or observe how thoughts and feelings are > arising and falling away. > nowdays i feel there is less attachment in the meditation than > there was before but i don't see why there should be more > attachment while meditating than when listening to the dhamma.i am > listening because "i" want to understand, which already is wrong > understaning.... > ------ N:It depends on the citta at that moment. You are listening and the goal is right understanding. Kusala cittas alternate with akusala cittas with clinging, and it is hard to tell which is which. This will not prevent us from listening, listening to the right Dhamma is always good. You sit and reflect, and it is helpful to realize that this is because of accumulated conditions. You reflect how thoughts and feelings are arising and falling away. It is only at later stages of insight that the arising and falling away of the present reality can be realized. If that stage has not been reached, words and thoughts are the object. I just heard from Acharn: < When thinking, words are the object of citta, not the characteristic of seeing now. If we do not develop understanding of seeing now defilements cannot be eradicated. We have to listen and consider the reality of this moment and little by little there will be sati and more understanding.> ------- > L: but do you think that meditation itself can be "harmful" in > order to develop understanding? > ------- N. Meditation is a word that covers many meanings. Samatha in order to attain jhaana, study of the teachings, vipassanaa. From what you write I understand that you mean sitting and reflecting on the teachings. Harmful or not? It depends on the citta at that moment. It is best to find out for oneself. Nobody else can tell what types of cittas another person has. Considering the teachings is good, but it should be considering the present reality. We do not have to sit to do this, at any time there are seeing hearing, aversion, etc. We learn that we cannot create realities, they just appear when there are conditions. Thus, in any posture we can consider. The more natural, the better. Then we learn what are true accumulations are. --------- Nina. #126134 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:31 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] SPD, pt.2, ch.7 (6) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 22-aug-2012, om 17:02 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Right now, a summer insect is singing and to me it seems the > characteristic of the sound is what is known, not the hearing. But > how is it known? Because there is citta that hears. ------- N: This is true, but only pa~n~naa that has been developed can distinguish hearing and sound very precisely. ------ > Ph: This sort of thing can be studied and reflected on again and > again in daily life in an unforced way if we are fortunate enough > not to think it is self-evident... -------- N: Well said. Nina. #126135 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:52 am Subject: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, The sea of concepts.(no 1) Pa~n~naa can understand the characteristic of what appears as it really is. There are several types of cittas. At this moment citta that sees arises and then citta that hears, they have different characteristics. Colour appears through the eyesense but we do not know the truth of the reality appearing through eyesense. We remember stories of what we are used to thinking about, stories about different people. At this moment it seems that there are really people, a table, a chair in what appears through the eyes. But the characteristic of what appears through the eyes is a kind of element. This is the truth; it can contact the eyesense and it falls away very rapidly. It cannot be people or specific things. The arising and falling away of citta is very fast, but it seems that seeing does not fall away. It causes us to remember shape and form and to take it for people and things. Before listening to the Dhamma there was seeing, but one did not understand the characteristic of what appeared through the eyes. One believed that there were persons and different things. The understanding of the person who attained enlightenment and the understanding of someone who did not listen to the Dhamma or has just begun to listen are very far apart. The person who is an ariyan has realized the truth, he is able to understand the truth of what appears so that doubt as to what appears could be eliminated. He knows the characteristic of what appears as it really is. Is there at this moment the sea of images? The whole day there is the sea of images. We see and then there is the sea of images, we hear and then there is the sea of names. We are in the sea of concepts from birth to death. We do not know that what appears is only a reality that arises and falls away. ------- Nina. #126136 From: "Ken H" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:54 pm Subject: Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --------- > S: You weren't forgotten when the topic of kamma and its results came up yesterday with Rob & Sukin:-) Rob was annoyed that we never seem to disagree with you, so I mentioned our recent exchange! ---------- KH: All jokes aside, it's an honour to be mentioned in such esteemed company. But I think there has been (if anything) a little *too much* disagreement with me on the blind monk subject. I wasn't saying anything against the accepted interpretation of that sutta: I was just adding a few extra thoughts, which I still think were quite reasonable. ------------------ <. . .> > S: We think the problems in life are the other person's stepping on caterpillars, expounding their wrong views about kamma or whatever. In fact, all the problems come back to the citta now. ------------------- KH: A very good point. I can't argue with that. ----------------------- <. . .> > S: I think where we disagreed was as to whether it's of any relevance in the example as to whether the blind monk had any attainment of not. Simply, he did not intend to kill - that was all. Not of any importance. ------------------------ KH: Yes, I hope everyone at DSG agrees by now that anyone (ariyan or worldling) can be free of akusala kamma-patha in situations that would normally indicate the reverse. There is the old DSG example of the air-force bombardier going about his lawful business without any intention to kill. I hope we've all accepted that one. Once we have got over that hurdle we might venture into the Ken H school of sutta interpretations, and discuss something else. Or we might not! :-) ----------------- <. . .> >> KH: <. . .> we all (at dsg) know there ultimately no conventional results. But I still wonder why we bother talking about them. >> > S: Depending on the speaker's or listener's understanding, we can use any language to point to ultimate realities, can't we? ----------------- KH: Yes, exactly, but should we hint at some other level of reality - as if the Dhamma was not just about paramattha dhammas but also about conventional matters? -------------------------- >> KH: There is no control, and therefore there can never be any efficacy -- whatsoever! -- in a rule. >> > S: If you tell a child not to touch the hot stove is there no efficacy in the 'rule' because dhammas are anatta? ----------------------- KH: I might be misunderstanding that question: the unusual sentence construction doesn't help. But, on the surface, this does seem like a case in point. I would never disagree with you, even less with K Sujin, on any matter of satipathana, but I am occasionally puzzled when you and other dinosaurs seem to be espousing a "conventional satipatthana." (!) Of course there is no efficacy in a rule! (A rule is a concept.) Why do you seem to suggest there could be? Ken H #126137 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:57 pm Subject: Re: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. philofillet Dear Nina Wonderul post, thanks. "Colour appears through the eyesense but we do not know the truth of the reality appearing..." We do not know the trutth of the reality. Why do I like to understand how little I understand? Later in the post it says only the person of developped panna knows the reality rather than the sea of concepts. (Sorry I have to paraphrase, difficult to edit on i-phone, or should I say virya and chanda and other factors to do so not arising now) And yet we are often encouraged to understand the. characteristics of whatever is appearing. Don't we know the characteristic of cod temperature for example? Does only the person of developed panna understand the characteristic of that reality rather than a concept of being cold? Phil p.s Chanda arose to prevent i-phone typos, I tgink. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The sea of concepts.(no 1) > > Pa~n~naa can understand the characteristic of what appears as it > really is. There are several types of cittas. At this moment citta > that sees arises and then citta that hears, they have different > characteristics. Colour appears through the eyesense but we do not > know the truth of the reality appearing through eyesense. We remember > stories of what we are used to thinking about, stories about > different people. At this moment it seems that there are really > people, a table, a chair in what appears through the eyes. But the > characteristic of what appears through the eyes is a kind of element. > This is the truth; it can contact the eyesense and it falls away very > rapidly. It cannot be people or specific things. The arising and > falling away of citta is very fast, but it seems that seeing does not > fall away. It causes us to remember shape and form and to take it for > people and things. Before listening to the Dhamma there was seeing, > but one did not understand the characteristic of what appeared > through the eyes. One believed that there were persons and different > things. The understanding of the person who attained enlightenment > and the understanding of someone who did not listen to the Dhamma or > has just begun to listen are very far apart. The person who is an > ariyan has realized the truth, he is able to understand the truth of > what appears so that doubt as to what appears could be eliminated. He > knows the characteristic of what appears as it really is. > > Is there at this moment the sea of images? The whole day there is the > sea of images. We see and then there is the sea of images, we hear > and then there is the sea of names. We are in the sea of concepts > from birth to death. We do not know that what appears is only a > reality that arises and falls away. > > ------- > Nina. > > > #126138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 25-aug-2012, om 9:57 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > We do not know the trutth of the reality. Why do I like to > understand how little I understand? ------ N: Because we want to know the truth. ------- > > Ph: Later in the post it says only the person of developped panna > knows the reality rather than the sea of concepts. And yet we are > often encouraged to understand the. characteristics of whatever is > appearing. Don't we know the characteristic of cold temperature for > example? Does only the person of developed panna understand the > characteristic of that reality rather than a concept of being cold? ------ N:Yes, we all know when it is cold. But we do not know cold yet as only a dhamma, a conditioned ruupa. And this only pa~n~naa can know. Only a conditioned ruupa, not: I am cold, I feel cold. Only pa~n~naa leads to detachment. ------ Nina. #126139 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:07 pm Subject: Discussion in Bangkok with A.Sujin, August 2012 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We met Tadao, our old friend who has occasionally posted on DSG, Sukin and other friends for a Dhamma discussion with A.Sujin at the Foundation today. Some brief notes: 1. 5 khandhas – each dhatu, each reality a khandha. 5 kinds of khandhas. Never mind the names or numbers! Yes, like vedana can be classified as 3 or 108 or as many as we like. Back to understanding the khandha, the reality now. 2. Lots on kamma, kamma patha. Death (cuti citta) a result of kamma and support conditions. Can we even understand kamma as cause now? If not forget about other support conditions. Cold, disease – in reality just the experiencing of various rupas through the senses and then lots of thinking. 3. We read that in the case of killing, if the akusala is great enough to condition death, it’s kamma patha, but in reality there’s no ‘killing’, just the arising of dhatus by conditions. Cuti citta arises because of past kamma. The great akusala, great cetana, (in the other person), arises because of accumulations and brings its own results by way of akusala vipaka. When there’s strong akusala cetana conditioning deeds, we don’t know what the outcome will be and whether it will be completed kamma patha. Why do we mind or want to know? Is this pariyatti? 4. The Buddha was omniscient and knew when death would occur and what other factors would arise. Does it sound pre-determined? He understood all conditioned dhammas just as they are, were or will be. 5. Mental kamma, bodily kamma and speech kamma. Cetana conditioning intimations through body and speech. Only ‘done’, completed kamma patha if action through body and speech with regard to akusala kamma patha. This is true even for most serious of wrong views or covetousness. A difficult point. In the case of kusala kamma patha, this is true with regard to dana, but when it’s right understanding, no need or any action through body or speech. 6. When we read about other conditions such as the place where one lives, the time and so on – actually just vipaka cittas and lots of thinking. Conditions to experience hardness, for example and then thinking about someone’s deeds or the place one lives in. Being born as a slave or an ugly person – back to now and the present realities. Being born as Sarah or Sujin, but actually just different cittas experiencing different objects. Always back to the present realities. Who can know which kamma conditioned the seeing or hearing now? 7. We refer to an animal killing another one, but of course, no animals. When it’s not pre-meditated it’s bodily kamma (kaya kamma) through body-door (kaya dvara). In other words, it’s called kaya kamma because of the lack of planning and conditions bodily intimations. This has nothing to do with the different doorways (eye-, ear-, body- etc). (If there were planning, it would be mano kamma). to be contd Metta Sarah ===== #126140 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:09 pm Subject: Discussion in Bangkok with A.Sujin, August 2012 (2) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, contd 8. ‘Serves you right’ – whatever vipaka comes, it’s very ‘right’. 9. Stories about kamma – just an idea about cause and result, but without an understanding of realities, doesn’t help the understanding of satipatthana. 10. Atapi (ardent), viriya, samma sankappa – must be with right understanding to burn defilements. Just as there are different kinds of fires, so there is burning with lobha and burning with right understanding, energy and path factors. 11. Priyatti now – only when it’s about the understanding of reality now. Whatever we read must relate to an understanding of the realities now, otherwise of no value. Studying the Tipitaka is just ‘scholarship’ if not. This point was emphasized a lot. 12. Little Wayman who became a Tipitakadhara – this means he understood about all dhatus, all realities now. 13. Right understanding leading to changes or gradually reducing defilements with the wearing away of wrong views. The danger of all kinds of akusala and the benefit of all kinds of kusala has to be known. For example, dana – giving up clinging to oneself. All akusala prevents understanding from developing when it arises. This is why we learn about the perfections and the importance of all the supporting kusala such as dana, sila, metta and so on. 14. Rob E’s qus about conventional actions and how we can’t just judge a Buddhist by an understanding of paramattha dhammas. What is a Buddhist? The right understanding of paramattha dhammas. This understanding will lead to better sila and so on. Right intellectual understanding leads to (direct) right understanding which leads to fewer stories about situations. 15. Rob E’s qu on the characteristic of breath as object of satipatthana. Does it appear now? No, so it can’t be known now. Why breath? Just clinging with self when wanting to know or be aware of it rather than visible object which appears now. The condition for more awareness in no selection of what appears! 16. Caterpillars and blind monks – we don’t know and it doesn’t matter whether the monk had any understanding or not. The point is just that we can’t judge by the situation and that it’s the citta now that thinks this or that way that matters and can be known. ***** On Wednesday we'll be having a trip to the countryside near Ayutthaya for discussions, so a few days break until then. Metta Sarah ===== #126142 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, >________________________________ > From: Ken H >KH: All jokes aside, it's an honour to be mentioned in such esteemed company. But I think there has been (if anything) a little *too much* disagreement with me on the blind monk subject. I wasn't saying anything against the accepted interpretation of that sutta: I was just adding a few extra thoughts, which I still think were quite reasonable. ... S: There hasn't been too much support for those extra thoughts to date:) ... >> S: We think the >problems in life are the other person's stepping on caterpillars, expounding >their wrong views about kamma or whatever. In fact, all the problems come back >to the citta now. >------------------- > >KH: A very good point. I can't argue with that. .... S: K.Sujin took that line too... see the notes. .. >> S: I think where we disagreed was as to whether it's of any relevance in >the example as to whether the blind monk had any attainment of not. Simply, he did not intend to kill - that was all. Not of any importance. >------------------------ > >KH: Yes, I hope everyone at DSG agrees by now that anyone (ariyan or worldling) can be free of akusala kamma-patha in situations that would normally indicate the reverse. There is the old DSG example of the air-force bombardier going about his lawful business without any intention to kill. I hope we've all accepted that one. > >Once we have got over that hurdle we might venture into the Ken H school of sutta interpretations, and discuss something else. >Or we might not! :-) ... S: Yes, let's move on to some of those sutta interpretations. As you always say, have to come back to the present realities. "Just like now!" ... >> S: Depending on the speaker's or listener's understanding, we can use any >language to point to ultimate realities, can't we? >----------------- > >KH: Yes, exactly, but should we hint at some other level of reality –- as if the Dhamma was not just about paramattha dhammas but also about conventional matters? ... S: Only about paramattha dhammas, but just depends on the reader/listener as to whether this is understood. ... >>> KH: There is no control, and therefore there can never be any efficacy -- whatsoever! -- in a rule. >>> > >> S: If you tell a child not to touch the hot stove is there no efficacy in the 'rule' because dhammas are anatta? >----------------------- > >KH: I might be misunderstanding that question: the unusual sentence construction doesn't help. But, on the surface, this does seem like a case in point. I would never disagree with you, even less with K Sujin, on any matter of satipathana, but I am occasionally puzzled when you and other dinosaurs seem to be espousing a "conventional satipatthana." (!) > >Of course there is no efficacy in a rule! (A rule is a concept.) Why do you seem to suggest there could be? ... S: We use the word 'rule', but actually when speaking the words or hearing the words, there are various paramattha dhammas, including the thinking about the concepts about various dhammas. The observance of those rules (or for the child, 'not touching the hot stove') represent more paramattha dhammas. It just depends on understanding whether this is known at the time or not - 'just like now'. I think this may be a similar point to the one about the Jataka stories you have with Rob K - lots of concepts, but describing paramattha dhammas which the wise can understand. Othewise, just thinking about stories. I told K.Sujin that some friends, like Mike nz the other day, suggest that coming to a discussion with her at a fixed time is just as much a 'method' as going to a retreat or sitting on a cushion to meditate at a fixed time. Her reply: "What do they mean by 'method'? And: 'If we don't fix a time, how can we have a discussion?':-)) Metta Sarah ===== #126143 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:31 am Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Jon, Sarah, Lukas and KenO, Thank you all for replies. > > Khine: Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > J: Just a thought, but it could be said that citta is a dhamma that is defiled (i.e., by akusala cetasikas) but is not itself a defilement. Yes, that's one of the details I was wondering about. Either way, at this point, I get the feeling that this particular line from the matrix could be paraphrased in simple English as: "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." Would you agree? I am still not sure to what differences are the terms sa.mkili.t.tha and kilesa supposed to point out in this line, if at all? At least, if judging by the treatment in 997, I now get the feeling that this matrix line simply refers to different ways of classifying akusala dhammas (roots, defilements, aggregates (including consciousness) and kamma), rather than pointing to differences between akusala dhammas. Khine 997. < What are the dhamma which are defiled and which are also objects of defilements? There are: the three roots of demeritoriousness, viz., greed, hatred and bewilderment; there are also the defilements existing together with these roots of demeritoriousness; the aggregate of Sensation ...p... the aggregate of Consciousness associated with these roots of demeritoriousness; and physical action, verbal action and mental action arising on account of these roots of demeritoriousness. > Pali 997: < katame dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa? tii.ni akusalamuulaani - lobho, doso, moho; tadeka.t.thaa ca kilesaa; ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho ... pe ... vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m, manokamma.m - ime dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa.> Best wishes pt #126144 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:37 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Thanks for the discussion. > S: Of course, there are lots of illusions of clarity during the day - such as when one solves a puzzle or can see the view clearly. But in dhamma terms, the only clarity is that of right understanding illuminating the object appearing. So, I think the clarity above is the joyful feeling and attachment taking a break from......other kinds of attachment? What do you think? pt: I had a bit of time yesterday to revisit meditation, so yes, attachment shows up often. However, I think I believe that these moments of clarty, at their best, are moments of kusala, hence the reluctance to drop the whole thing. But I wonder what sort of kusala. Not satipatthana, it doesn's seem like it at all. Not that satipatthana cannot occur at any time, but I don't think it is the case here. So I'm pinning my hopes on moments of samatha development. The questions is then - what makes these moments kusala? I don't know. They seem that way, but there's no kusala consideration of the breath and other descriptors that you and Jon talked about. So it might as well be attachment, but I don't know, it doesn't seem like it either. Perhaps its just stronger concentration than usual, on top of mild attachment, or smth like that. But I'm not quite sure either way. > S: If a particular dhamma is considered more suitable for sati and panna, that would be wrong. I may have also stressed that all conditioned dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta, so all equally worthless and unworthy of being clung to at all. Kusala states are useful because they're kusala, but in terms of the path, any dhamma can be the object and in this regard, jhana citta is no more useful than dosa or lobha. pt: Ok. I think I do consider the moments I describe above as the best passtime that is available to me, but I don't think it is a springboard to satipatthana or anything like that, and in terms of the path, it is no more useful than any other dhamma/moment. > S: If there's any attempt to have particular kinds of dhammas arise or particular objects of awareness, it is wrong practice conditioned by atta-ditthi - not understanding the conditioned nature of what arises now. pt: Yes, this is the bit that worries me. I ask myself if I am trying to have particular kinds of dhammas arise? Yes, most of the time, in or out of meditation, mostly revolving around chasing happy feeling. As for meditation itself, I think the development in a kusala direction (and here I mean strictly samatha development) occurs only when moments of (supposed) kusala are recognised as such, so when and as they arise. Whereas trying to make kusala arise never actually succeeds. But then how would I know kusala from akusala (in samatha development context) in the first place and thus be able to recognise kusala moments when they occur? I don't know how either, it just seems that I can sometimes, but I don't know on what basis. I wonder how would someone outside a Buddha's dispensation develop samatha (I'm talking about the level of sitting in the forest and that whole business)? There would be no teachings about right/wrong view, even kusala/akusala. So how would he be able to tell the difference between a/kusala, since this is a must for developing samatha to high degree? I mean what's the basis for distinguishing akusala from kusala if no teachings to that effect were heard, nor are there conceptual ideas of what is better or worse state/dhamma? Best wishes pt #126145 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:49 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, >pt: I had a bit of time yesterday to revisit meditation, so yes, >attachment shows up often... >======================= It is better to be attached to meditation than worldly things and I believe that meditation is better for progress than attachment to worldly life, restless mind, and daily life. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #126146 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:32 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for joining. > It is better to be attached to meditation than worldly things and I believe that meditation is better for progress than attachment to worldly life, restless mind, and daily life. Even if there isn't a single moment of kusala during what one calls "meditaiton"? That's my main worry - that I'm confusing kusala with akusala, and that there really is no kusala during "meditation". So, for me still the only issue that really matters is knowing what's kusala and what's akusala. Once that's known, then kusala can develop, in or out of meditation. But if there's no knowing what's kusala to begin with, well, you get the picture. Best wishes pt #126147 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:34 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for joining. > > > It is better to be attached to meditation than worldly things and I believe that meditation is better for progress than attachment to worldly life, restless mind, and daily life. > > Even if there isn't a single moment of kusala during what one calls "meditaiton"? That's my main worry - that I'm confusing kusala with akusala, and that there really is no kusala during "meditation". > > So, for me still the only issue that really matters is knowing what's kusala and what's akusala. Once that's known, then kusala can develop, in or out of meditation. But if there's no knowing what's kusala to begin with, well, you get the picture. > > Best wishes > pt > #126148 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:37 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, In any case I believe that one should do the best one can. To use analogue: If person cannot lift 500 pounds, he shouldn't give up but practice until one can, or at least until one reaches one's highest potential. As for "knowing kusala vs akusala", it is one thing to know and another thing to do. Just knowing that "food is in the fridge" will not remove hunger. IMHO, With metta, Alex #126149 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:57 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland philofillet Hi Pt, Alex, all I think "meditation" is a supreme worldly pleasure, it has become my greatest pleasure, without doubt. Masturbation is about as pleasurable as picking my nose when compared to meditation, honestly and I am more attached to 'meditation' than I am to masturbation. Tyat is really saying something. My brain and whole body become illuminated, it's like all the cells in tge body are vibrant. A few years ago I posted about a WOW experience when meditating, now I have tgem regularly. Clarity, seeing rising and falling of mind states? No way, except for I guess seeing sll the lobha in tge same way I can see lobha when choking the monkey. I can breathe through my hands, folks, I can breathe through my eyelids. Thanissaro Bhikkhu taught me about that, thanks TB, but what he doesn't teach (but probably knows) is that it is about "ki" or "chi.". It is a supreme pleasure, my medturbation! I think a kusala connection is that I don't drink alcohol not because of precepts (I am not interested in those anymore) but because even one beer messes up my glorious glowing the next morning and tge plessure in alcohol is gross and kind of yucky compared to medturbation. Tgat's why I strongly urge Lukas to experiment with it. It is easy to see it is just for pleasure. But by replacing the need for alcohol or marijuana, it helps to make the akusala kamma behaviour that be comes more likely through intoxication less likely. That is the only connection to kusala I can see in my case. I am haloy tgat I understand satipattgana can only possibly arise in moments of detached mind states. Detached mibd states might seem to arise during my "meditation" believing tgat is to be deceived, the whole operatiin is rooted in lobha, as is onanism. Thankful for them both! I am going to proceed to do one of them right now! Masturabation or meditation, which one?Hint - I sit with my legs crossed when I do it!!!\(^o^)/ Phil #126150 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:03 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland truth_aerator Hi Phil, Pt, all, >P:I think "meditation" is a supreme worldly pleasure, I believe that it should be practiced for wisdom and more kusala. With best wishes, Alex #126151 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:20 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland philofillet Hi again I think another ibdirect kusala connection through this meditation of mine is tgat when My mind has become illuminated (for want of a better word) through tgese deep states of vibrant pleasure, there is a kind of echo of it tgat remains with me through the day. If, for example, I am sitting with an irritatingly nervous or aggravatingly sexy student, there is a kind of quick soaking in the remnant pleasure of the "meditatiin", I can "go in" as I call it, and that pleasure replaces the need to check out her breasts or show hurtful irritation, and I guess thst's good in one a crude form of awareness recognizes as dangerous situations. Now, kusala states can arise without that, of course, it would be wiser to see if they do, there would be more detachment, and there is no kusala in the moment. Some students and co-workers and spouses say I have a calming presence, my smile is "healing." I don't know if that is another effect of my meditation I remember Rob K writing about people noticing his radiant appearance when he was a "meditator") or simply because genetics have left me looking like a cute rodent. Ok, off I go to "meditate", I'm out of this thread. Phil p.s Luraya, you were asking about meditation, I'm sure there will be a lot of discussion about that in Poland. There has to be patient and honest observation of the pervasiveness of lobha in meditation as compared to listening to Dhamma and reflecting. There is lobha in that too, but not as pervasive, and not the same desire to control mind states, experience will reveal that clearly to those with conditions for understanding. #126152 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:30 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland philofillet Hi again I fingertapped on tiny keys: "i guess thst's good in one a crude form of awareness recognizes as dangerous situations. Now, kusala states can arise without that, of course, it would be wiser to see if they do, there would be more detachment, and there is no kusala in the moment." What a mess! Meant to write that I guess it's good when a crude level of awareness recognizes dangerous situations with high potential for harmful behaviour and returns the mind to that easily attained echo of that calming meditative bliss, but it would be wiser to see if kusala states arise without interference, kusala can only arise with detachment. Phil #126153 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:47 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina > > > We do not know the trutth of the reality. Why do I like to > > understand how little I understand? > ------ > N: Because we want to know the truth. Yes, but I think there is some kind of attachment at work too. I remember once hearing you say in a talk "why do we like to hear about aeons and aeons" or something like that. I think there is a movement rooted in lobha by which we take pleasure in *thinking about understanding* Dhamma that is different from the rare moments of understanding arising, with detachment. There is pariyatti and there is "pariyatti", just as there is meditation and "meditation." The quotation marks indicate akusala because of attachment involved. I assume pariyatti cannot be rooted in lobha, only the moments of reflecting on Dhamma with detachment can be pariyatti. > > Ph: Later in the post it says only the person of developped panna > > knows the reality rather than the sea of concepts. And yet we are > > often encouraged to understand the. characteristics of whatever is > > appearing. Don't we know the characteristic of cold temperature for > > example? Does only the person of developed panna understand the > > characteristic of that reality rather than a concept of being cold? > ------ > N:Yes, we all know when it is cold. But we do not know cold yet as > only a dhamma, a conditioned ruupa. And this only pa~n~naa can know. > Only a conditioned ruupa, not: I am cold, I feel cold. Only pa~n~naa > leads to detachment. I can think with attachment of cold as a conditioned ruupa, that I don't know yet but may someday. Or there can be a moment of understanding with detachment that panna can know cold as a conditioned ruupa, understanding without the subtle clinging to "I will get it someday" or "I wanna get that understanding" that is so prevalent. Phil #126154 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:05 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? philofillet Dear group, The continuation of pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. "The Atthasaalini (or, The Expositor), the commentary to the Dhammasangani (Book I, Part IV, Ch.II, 140) states that the reality that is citta is so called because of its variegated nature (the Pali term 'vicitta' means 'variegated' or various). THere is not only one kind of element that experiences, citta, but there are many different kinds of citta. Citta is variegated. Its variegated nature appears when we think of different subjects, when we think, for example, about what we are going to do on a particular day. When we consider this more, we shall find out that thinking occurs according to the variegated nature of all the different cittas that arise." (53) (end of passage) Ph: Does the variegated nature of citta refer especially to thinking? Is seeing variegated, is hearing variegated? (Either in itself or because of the variegated nature of ruupa that is the object of seeing and hearing?) In a following paragraph we find "hence, we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta that sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different from the citta that hears through the ears, which is another type of citta. The citta that thinks is again another type of citta." But within thinking there is so much variegation of citta. How about within seeing? Is the citta that sees a dark color variegated from the citta that sees a light color or is only the rupa variegated? Phil #126155 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:04 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland philofillet Hello again Sorry, writing too much but off to work now so I'll give you a break. Just to point out that finding faults in the corrupted form of pseudo-samattha that I practice and wrote about is less subtle than the examination pt is up too, which I assume is more about looking at "vipasanna meditation." My practice is more in line with people like that guy Geoofrey Brooks (was that it, something like that) who later gave himself a cool Paali name and had a website about "ecstatic states" and claims to be an Ariyan. Charlatans like that, and other well-meaning but simply misguided "jhana seekers." There are all kinds of ways to have blissful experiences through using ki/chi and what TB calls "breath energy" that would be easy to mistake for jhana or access concentration, which of course cannot be rooted in lobha. But I still think they are useful for people like me with powerful addictive tendencies. Addictive energy has to go somewhere, it is better to be addicted to playing with ki/chi than being addicted to alcohol, drugs etc, in my opinion. OK, I'm outta here, I promise. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again > > I fingertapped on tiny keys: > > "i guess thst's good in one a crude form of awareness recognizes as dangerous situations. Now, kusala states can arise without that, of course, it would be wiser to see if they do, there would be more detachment, and there is no kusala in the moment." > > What a mess! Meant to write that I guess it's good when a crude level of awareness recognizes dangerous situations with high potential for harmful behaviour and returns the mind to that easily attained echo of that calming meditative bliss, but it would be wiser to see if kusala states arise without interference, kusala can only arise with detachment. > > Phil > #126156 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S: In other words, usually blinded by ignorance there's an idea that >it's Alex, Sarah or a person who takes a walk, sits at the computer or >performs other acts. In fact there are only ever mental and physical >phenomena - namas and rupas - at any time. No self at all. >Do we still agree? >========================================= Yes. With best wishes, Alex #126157 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 sarahprocter... Hi Alex, >________________________________ > From: truth_aerator >>S: In other words, usually blinded by ignorance there's an idea that >it's Alex, Sarah or a person who takes a walk, sits at the computer or >performs other acts. In fact there are only ever mental and physical >phenomena - namas and rupas - at any time. No self at all. >>Do we still agree? >>========================================= > >A: Yes. ... S: Good! And all these conditioned namas and rupas, which we agree are anatta, are therefore beyond the control of any self regardless of the activity. Still agreed? Metta Sarah ===== #126158 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, You quoted K.Sujin as saying: ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nina van Gorkom < satipa.t.thaana sati of other levels can arise. He can see the > benefit of listening to the Dhamma and different levels of sati can > arise. There may not be conditions for sammaa-sati of > satipa.t.thaana, but through listening sati of other levels can > arise. Each person can consider for himself whether kusala arises > that did not arise before. When he listens different degrees of > kusala can arise through body, speech and mind. He should see the > benefit of sati of other levels that can arise, even if it is not yet > the level of satipa.t.thaana. Sati of satipa.t.thaana can arise > alternately with sati of other levels.> *** S: I think this is an important point and one we touched on yesterday in the discussion. Some people may think that if it's not sati of satipatthana, but some other kind of kusala that arises that it's of no value. However, kusala is kusala and at those moments, no ignorance, no akusala to hinder the development of the path. There will be a better understanding of moments of true dana, true sila of different kinds, true metta, true samatha, for example. Metta Sarah ===== #126159 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:27 pm Subject: Posture, killing and other concepts sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, We were sharing 'posture' quotes a little while ago and I just came across this good quote from K.Sujin which you gave last year: *** S: Yesterday we were discussing pariyatti and K.Sujin was talking about how it is the understanding of whatever is taught as being about realities in order to condition the understanding of reality now. Otherwise, she was saying, it is not the "skill of pariyatti" because we usually think over what we read in our own way, such as when we read about 'killing', for example. In fact, in reality, there is no 'killing' - just cittas, cetasikas and rupas. "Never forget that even now it's dhatu!" We can study a lot from the texts, but "what is here and now?" Metta Sarah ===== #126160 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Dhammasangani - matika sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Pt & all in this corner, As I understand - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > This are first verses of Dhammasangani, the first book of Abhidhamma. Matika starts: > > Dhammasanganipali > matika > > 1. Tikamaatikaa - The triplets exposition > > 1. Kusalaa dhammaa - all dhammas that are kusala, all kusala cetasikas and cittas > akusalaa dhammaa - all dhammas that are akusala, all akusala cetasikas and cittas > abyaakataa dhammaa - all realities that are neither kusala or akusala. like nibbana, ruupas, cittas and cetasikas that are of kiriya and vipaka sati. ... S: Yes ...> > 2. sukhaaya vedanaaya sampayuttaa dhammaa - all realities accompanied with plesant feeling > dukkhaaya vedanaaya sampayuttaa dhammaa - ....unpleasant > adukkha.masukkhaya vedanaaya sampayutta dhammaa. - ....neutral ... S: Yes ... > > 3. vipaakaa dhammaa - all vipaka cittas and cetasikas > vipaakadhammadhammaa - all realities that can produce result vipaka. kammapatha, kusala and akusala cittas that are not strong enought to produce result are not classified as vipakadhamma dhammaa > nevavipakanavipaakadhammadhammaa - all akusala and kusala dhammas that are not of the level of kammapatha and the rest realities not classified above like ruupa? ... S: Yes, all other realities, also kiriya cittas, nibbana. ... > > 4. upaadinnupaadaaniyaa dhammaa > anupaadinnupadaniyaa dhammaa > anupaadinnaanupaadaaniyaa dhammaa .... S: upaadinna - kamma produced rupas. Upaadaanaiyaa - 'favourable to grasping', objects of grasping. anupaadinnupadaniyaa dhammaa - objects of grasping only anupaadinnaanupaadaaniyaa dhammaa - neither of the above - only lokuttara cittas and nibbana can never be the object of grasping ... > 5. sa.mkilitthasamkilesika dhammaa > asa.mkilitthasamkilesika dhammaa > asamkilitthaasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa ... S: As discussed, sa.mkillittha is defiled - cittas accompanied by akusala cetasikas. So sa.mkilitthasamkilesika dhammaa refers to akusala cittas and cetasikas asa.mkilitthasamkilesika dhammaa refers to kilesa only asamkilitthaasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa refers to all dhammas which are not akusala cittas or cetasikas. Do we all agree? metta Sarah ===== #126161 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt, Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > Khine: Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > > > J: Just a thought, but it could be said that citta is a dhamma that is defiled (i.e., by akusala cetasikas) but is not itself a defilement. > > >PT: Yes, that's one of the details I was wondering about. Either way, at this point, I get the feeling that this particular line from the matrix could be paraphrased in simple English as: > > "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." ... S: Did you see my message with the references to sa.mkillittha (defiled), referring to citta defiled by kilesa? Your paraphrase won't work because "dhamma which are defiled", I understand, is only referring to akusala cittas. So you'd have to say: "There are dhammas which are akusala cittas and are also objects of defilements." For example, the citta rooted in attachment may be the object of further attachment. ... > Would you agree? I am still not sure to what differences are the terms sa.mkili.t.tha and kilesa supposed to point out in this line, if at all? ... S: See above and my last detailed message on this with the quote from "The Leash". ... <...> > Khine 997. > < What are the dhamma which are defiled and which are also objects of defilements? > > There are: the three roots of demeritoriousness, viz., greed, hatred and bewilderment; there are also the defilements existing together with these roots of demeritoriousness; the aggregate of Sensation ...p... the aggregate of Consciousness associated with these roots of demeritoriousness; and physical action, verbal action and mental action arising on account of these roots of demeritoriousness. > > > Pali 997: > < katame dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa? tii.ni akusalamuulaani - lobho, doso, moho; tadeka.t.thaa ca kilesaa; ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho ... pe ... vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m, manokamma.m - ime dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa.> ... Let's see if the following helps clarify: As quoted by Connie before: #78360 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 346. "Ettha rattaa pamattaa ca, sa.mkili.t.thamanaa naraa; a~n~nama~n~nena byaaruddhaa, puthuu kubbanti medhaga.m. 344. Many men who are infatuated with this and careless, with defiled minds, being obstructed one by another, make a quarrel. txt: Ettha rattaa pamattaa caati etasmi.m dhane rattaa sa~njaataraagaa dasakusaladhammesu satiyaa vippavaasena pamattaa. Sa.mkili.t.thamanaa lobhaadisa.mkilesena sa.mkili.t.thacittaava naama honti. Tato ca a~n~nama~n~namhi byaaruddhaa, puthuu kubbanti medhaga.m antamaso maataapi puttena, puttopi maataraati eva.m a~n~nama~n~na.m pa.tiruddhaa hutvaa puthuu sattaa medhaga.m kalaha.m karonti. Tenaaha bhagavaa- "puna capara.m, bhikkhave, kaamahetu kaamanidaana.m kaamaadhikara.na.m.pe. maataapi puttena vivadati puttopi maataraa vivadatii"ti-aadi (ma. ni. 1.168, 178). 344. Infatuated with this (ettha) and careless means: infatuated by this (etasmi.m) wealth, careless through the absence of mindfulness regarding the ten good characteristics. [Men] with defiled minds (sa.m-kili.t.tha-manaa), their minds are defiled (sa.mkili.t.tha-cittaa) through the corruption of greed, etc. And then, being obstructed one by another (a~n~na-m-a~n~namhi), [they] make a quarrel, even a mother with her child or a child with its mother. In this way, they are hindered by one another (a~n~na-m-a~n~namhi); many beings make a quarrel (medhaga.m = kalaha.m). As the Blessed One said:* "And moreover, bhikkhus, with sensual pleasures as the cause, with sensual pleasures as the origin, as a consequence of sensual pleasures ... mother quarrels with child, child quarrels with mother," etc. *M I 86 (MLDB 181). **** Metta Sarah p.s If I have a chance, I'll also pass it by K.Sujin on Wed. or in Poland with Lukas may be better. ====== #126162 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:54 pm Subject: Re: Dhs jonoabb Hi pt (126143) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Sarah, Lukas and KenO, > > Thank you all for replies. > > > > Khine: Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > ... > I get the feeling that this particular line from the matrix could be paraphrased in simple English as: > > "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." > > Would you agree? > =============== J: Sorry, but I don't have any idea about this. I don't understand the sense in which `objects' is used here (I'd be interested to know how that term is obtained from the Pali: sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa, "Dhammas which are defiled and are also objects of defilements") > =============== > Khine 997. > < What are the dhamma which are defiled and which are also objects of defilements? > > There are: the three roots of demeritoriousness, viz., greed, hatred and bewilderment; there are also the defilements existing together with these roots of demeritoriousness; the aggregate of Sensation ...p... the aggregate of Consciousness associated with these roots of demeritoriousness; and physical action, verbal action and mental action arising on account of these roots of demeritoriousness. > > =============== J: For what it's worth, my reading of the above is as follows: 1. "There are: the three roots of demeritoriousness, viz., greed, hatred and bewilderment;" These would be the cetasikas lobha, dosa and moha; 2. "there are also a. "the defilements existing together with these roots of demeritoriousness" These are probably the other akusala cetasikas, that may arise together with 1 or more of the 3 roots. b. "the aggregate of Sensation ...p... the aggregate of Consciousness associated with these roots of demeritoriousness" If these are the 4 nama khandhas, I would say they represent the indeterminate cetasikas that arise with an akusala citta, and the citta itself. c. "physical action, verbal action and mental action arising on account of these roots of demeritoriousness" The Pali (see below) is "kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m, manokamma.m", so I guess these are the cetana arising with an akusala citta (although this would also be included in `sankhara khandha' part of the previous item); or it could refer to cetana of the strength of akusala kamma patha in particular. Jon > =============== > Pali 997: > < katame dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa? tii.ni akusalamuulaani - lobho, doso, moho; tadeka.t.thaa ca kilesaa; ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho ... pe ... vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m, manokamma.m - ime dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa.> > #126163 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:29 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. > J: Sorry, but I don't have any idea about this. I don't understand the sense in which `objects' is used here (I'd be interested to know how that term is obtained from the Pali: sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa dhammaa, "Dhammas which are defiled and are also objects of defilements") pt: I was wondering about the same thing - I think the "object" interpretation came from the commentary, so it seems Khine translates more according to the meaning as explained in the Dhs treatment and commentary, whereas R.D. translation for example seems more literal: < R.D: 5. States that are vitiated and vicious; > < Commentary: In the triplet of 'Corrupt and corrupting,' 'corrupting' means 'that which corrupts' (i.e., oppresses or torments a being). 'Corrupt' means 'arisen or occurring together with the corruptions.' 'Corruptible' means - capable of becoming corrupt by attending to self as an object, or permanently conjoined with corruption owing to inability to get beyond the state of being object of corruption. It is a name given to objects of corruption. Corrupt [states] which are (at the same time) objects of corruption are called 'corrupt and corruptible.' The remaining two terms should be understood in the same way as in the preceding triplet (i.e., in the negative sense). > Best wishes pt #126164 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Dear Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > >PT: Khine: Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > > > > "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." > ... > S: Did you see my message with the references to sa.mkillittha (defiled), referring to citta defiled by kilesa? > > Your paraphrase won't work because "dhamma which are defiled", I understand, is only referring to akusala cittas. So you'd have to say: > > "There are dhammas which are akusala cittas and are also objects of defilements." For example, the citta rooted in attachment may be the object of further attachment. ... S: There wasn't any Pali here - seeing your subsequent post and remembering the Pali phrase, as I wrote to Lukas, I think it's just referred to the dhammas which are defiled, i.e. the cittas and the kilesas. Nothing to do with object. So pls ignore my comment above. > ... > > Would you agree? I am still not sure to what differences are the terms sa.mkili.t.tha and kilesa supposed to point out in this line, if at all? > ... > S: See above and my last detailed message on this with the quote from "The Leash". > ... > <...> > > Khine 997. > > < What are the dhamma which are defiled and which are also objects of defilements? > > > > There are: the three roots of demeritoriousness, viz., greed, hatred and bewilderment; there are also the defilements existing together with these roots of demeritoriousness; the aggregate of Sensation ...p... the aggregate of Consciousness associated with these roots of demeritoriousness; and physical action, verbal action and mental action arising on account of these roots of demeritoriousness. > > > > > Pali 997: > > < katame dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa? tii.ni akusalamuulaani - lobho, doso, moho; tadeka.t.thaa ca kilesaa; ta.msampayutto vedanaakkhandho ... pe ... vi~n~naa.nakkhandho; ta.msamu.t.thaana.m kaayakamma.m, vaciikamma.m, manokamma.m - ime dhammaa sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa.> .... S: Cittas rooted in lobha, dosa and moha and accompanying kilesa. > ... Metta Sarah ===== #126165 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:42 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > > pt: "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." > ... > S: Did you see my message with the references to sa.mkillittha (defiled), referring to citta defiled by kilesa? pt: Yes, thanks, but I'm sorry I still don't quite get it. > S: Your paraphrase won't work because "dhamma which are defiled", I understand, is only referring to akusala cittas. So you'd have to say: > > "There are dhammas which are akusala cittas and are also objects of defilements." For example, the citta rooted in attachment may be the object of further attachment. pt: Let me see if I understnad what you are saying: 1. The first bit (sa.mkili.t.tha) refers only to akusala cittas? So not all akusala dhammas? 2. Why do we have to use "defilements" (at the end) - what is so special about them to distinguish them from other akusala dhammas (at the beginning)? Or does it simply distinguish them as cetasikas from akusala cittas of the sa.mkili.t.tha part of the line? Best wishes pt #126166 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:45 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah, I guess we were typing at the same time. > S: There wasn't any Pali here - seeing your subsequent post and remembering the Pali phrase, as I wrote to Lukas, I think it's just referred to the dhammas which are defiled, i.e. the cittas and the kilesas. Nothing to do with object. So pls ignore my comment above. :) And I just thought I got what you were saying in that other post. So, I'm back to being confused then :) Best wishes pt #126167 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:45 pm Subject: Re: "Serves You Right!" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I guess there can also be kusala "serves you right" reflection when we observe (with friendly cittas) the behaviour of animals as well.. ... S: Like most things, it can be said with kusala or akusla cittas - only panna can know. Appreciating that when seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and body consciousness arise, the citta is the result of kamma leads to more equanimity, more acceptance of the fairness, the "rightness" of such experiences. Like with all kinds of understanding, it will condition more friendliness, more tolerance, more patience and more understanding in future. Metta Sarah ===== #126168 From: KC Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt I felt the commentary has adequately explained the statement > "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." > At times, this is the way commentary works in making a statement which may not seen logical until they further explained it. Which author you are using and the publisher as I may want to get the book. Cheers From KC #126169 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Rob E), (I forget if I answered this...!) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > K: For ill will and harsh speech for it to be become kamma pattha, there must be a thought that wish a harm on another person. S:.....and the abuse/speech itself: > In Expositor pg 132 and 133 <....>Harsh speech is proportionate to the virtue of one concerning whom harsh words are spoken. The three constituent factors of this offence are: Another to be abused, angry thought, and the abuse>> S: "...and the abuse." Metta Sarah ===== #126170 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:53 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (126124) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: If you'd like to learn more about the 24 conditions, there's always the Patthana (last book of the Abhidhamma), where they are dealt with in detail :-)) > > Rob E: I would, but don't know when I'll have a copy of the Patthana handy, particularly in English. I've been barred from buying any more books til 2 conditions of my own have been met: > > a. Increase my business income [having a tough time at the moment] > b. Get rid of some of the books that are blocking up our condo, or: > c. Get us a bigger living space [dependent on condition a.] > =============== J: Good luck with this (just a suggestion, but go for condition b first :-)) > =============== > J: We need to be realistic, and patient. > > Rob E: I'm actually pretty patient in terms of waiting for actual experience. I realize the path is long. Still, certain things that are jarring are hard to just let lie. > =============== J: Yes, I know how it is: patient except with those things we find annoying :-)) > =============== > Rob E: As for realistic, well...not something I'm often accused of... > =============== J: Not sure if this is a typo, or a reflection of your involvement in the world of acting/drama :-)) > =============== > Rob E: Perhaps it would be helpful for me to see something on why there can only be one citta at a time. I know it's a mainstay of dhamma theory, but I don't think I've ever seen it explained. > =============== J: This will have to wait until I have access to texts (and have figured out where to start looking :-)). Perhaps Nina or somebody can help. > =============== > Rob E: It goes to the way in which consciousness is defined in the Abhidhamma, as a discrete singular act that arises to make contact with an object. All those mechanics of falling away before the next arising, and the way in which accumulations are transmitted to the next citta, are formed and necessitated by that model. > =============== J: But don't expect too much in the way of "mechanics" on the one-citta-at-a-time point; I think the most there will be is a statement/assertion of the fact. > =============== > Rob E: I appreciate seeing the list of conditions. In and of themselves they are worth investigating. Maybe when I am able I can look at Nina's book on Conditions. And I'm sure K. Sujin's Survey would be excellent to go back to as well. > =============== J: Yes, these books would be a great place to start (even if you are able to meet the conditions for adding the Patthana to your library), and both available in hard copy free of charge and also on-line. Jon #126171 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi KenO, > > "There are dhammas that are akusala, and these aksuala dhammas can also be an object of akusala dhammas." pt: To make sure it's clear - the line above was my paraphrase of the Dhs line. > Which author you are using and the publisher as I may want to get the book. The commentary excerpt I wrote to Jon was from the edition I got from the library: "The Expositor" Maung Tin - Translator Rhys Davids - Editor PTS, 1920 Best wishes pt #126172 From: KC Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt, I have the book. What is the actual phrasing from the author, as now I am out of my home and could not look at it. Thanks From KC > #126173 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:17 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland ptaus1 Hi Alex, > In any case I believe that one should do the best one can. > > To use analogue: If person cannot lift 500 pounds, he shouldn't give up but practice until one can, or at least until one reaches one's highest potential. > > As for "knowing kusala vs akusala", it is one thing to know and another thing to do. Just knowing that "food is in the fridge" will not remove hunger. I'll try to explain what I mean using your examples. I think that kusala (of samatha kind) develops on occasions when arising kusala is recognised as kusala as and when it happens. So that appreciation of kusala at the moment of its arising is what I'd equate to "doing" kusala in your example I guess. So, not just intellectually being able to say kusala is this and akusala is that, but knowing when it actually arises. (Of course, kusala arises as per conditions, so I'm not sure how far we can go with the analogy of "doing" kusala.) So then, "meditation" for me would mean one such moment of kusala recognition/appreciation/development. In terms of your example, that would equate to the person just starting weight training with lifting 10 pounds as a start. Now, if there's no recognition/appreciation/development of kusala really happening, but one believes that it is, then that could be similar to starting to train by lifting 10 pounds in a wrong posture over and over, resulting in an injury to your back. Hence the beginning seems to be - knowing what is the right way to lift your weights, or, being able to recognise when kusala is arising and when it is not. If there's no such ability, then one is training wrongly to his detriment. I hope this makes sense. Best wishes pt #126174 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi KenO, > I have the book. What is the actual phrasing from the author, as now I am out of my home and could not look at it. Thanks The commentary (Expositor) is like posted to Jon: < In the triplet of 'Corrupt and corrupting,' corrupting' means 'that which corrupts' (i.e., oppresses or torments a being). 'Corrupt' means 'arisen or occurring together with the corruptions.' 'Corruptible' means - capable of becoming corrupt by attending to self as an object, or permanently conjoined with corruption owing to inability to get beyond the state of being object of corruption. It is a name given to objects of corruption. Corrupt [states] which are (at the same time) objects of corruption are called 'corrupt and corruptible.' The remaining two terms should be understood in the same way as in the preceding triplet (i.e., in the negative sense). > Matrix translations: Rhys Davids: < States that are vitiated and vicious; > Ānandajoti Bhikkhu: < Things that are defiled and connected with the defilements > Khine: < Dhamma which are defiled and are also objects of defilements (997, 1396) > < 997. What are the dhamma which are defiled and which are also objects of defilements? There are: the three roots of demeritoriousness, viz., greed, hatred and bewilderment; there are also the defilements existing together with these roots of demeritoriousness; the aggregate of Sensation ...p... the aggregate of Consciousness associated with these roots of demeritoriousness; and physical action, verbal action and mental action arising on account of these roots of demeritoriousness. > Best wishes pt #126175 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:33 pm Subject: Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > 1. The first bit (sa.mkili.t.tha) refers only to akusala cittas? So not all akusala dhammas? ... S: As I understand it. (see the refs I gave in The Leash and The Luminous Sutta. Cittas are defiled by the kilesa (akusala cetasikas). ... > > 2. Why do we have to use "defilements" (at the end) - what is so special about them to distinguish them from other akusala dhammas (at the beginning)? Or does it simply distinguish them as cetasikas from akusala cittas of the sa.mkili.t.tha part of the line? ... S: Exactly. The defilements, kilesa, are just the akusala cetasikas. The sa.mkilit.tha refer to the defiled cittas only. Again from 'The Leash' which I think links up your comy quote: "diigha-rattam ida.m citta.m sa.mkili.t.tha.m raagena dosena mohena" For a long time citta has been 'defiled' by attachment, aversion and ignorance...... Metta Sarah ====== #126176 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:50 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Six things lead to abandoning of Lust sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Good quotes on lust (kamacchanda) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Dispeller of Delusion > > <<1247. Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of lust: (1)the acquiring of the sign of the foul, (2) devotion to the development of the foul, (3) restraint of the sense doors as regards the faculties,(4) knowledge of the right amount in eating, (5) good friendship,(6) suitable talk. ... S: And a good conclusion: > 1251. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to be the future non-arising of lust abandoned by means of these six things. >> ... Metta Sarah p.s sorry all about all the 'squiggles' that showed up in my notes from the discussions. Ken, I notice for me that they show up just when I use a word document to write first, especially if I'm travelling and don't reset the character encoding to unicode (utf 8) again first. ====== #126177 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:04 pm Subject: Re: ajahn naeb sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >S: When A.Sujin was suggesting that trying to work out what cittas there were in the past was just speculation, she was pointing to the present cittas at the time - the only reality. > ... > I see. I can read a post by someone ssying "just a lot lot > of lobha and mana" about a situation and I can think about whether the characteristic of mana is actually known to us but the only reality is the cittas that do that seeing (of visible object of the text) and thinking about it. ... S: Exactly. .... > If there is a citta that knows the characteristic of mana there is a citta that knows the characteristic of mana, wondering ehether there can be such a citta or not is just self wanting to establish rules in the citta process. The texts give us some rules about processes ( very complex rules) but I guess no rules about what can or cannot be object of understanding? ... S: Right - just what appears now, no rule at all. As soon as we set a rule, it's a selection all over again, a trying to be aware of a particular reality. Self creeping in again. ... > In any case, thanks for helping me better see my tendency to want to establish rules and limitations to understanding. Just a lot of lobha and mana at work but only thought about at work not seen at work at the time. Unless it is seen at work. No rules. ... S: Right..... 'pokkati' - naturally.... thinking, seeing, doubt, sound - whatever appears. Thx for the good points you raised. Metta Sarah ====== #126178 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off topic: WIFI: Was: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro > Good friend Sarah, et al Unfortunately, I will not return to Thailand until after I migrate from the Philadelphia Area to my Texas Hill Country home... when it gets too cold in Texas for me, I will fly to Thailand for the rest of the winter!!! Hopefully, sometime in the future, I will be in Thailand when yawl are in Thailand... peace... ... S: Hope to meet you in Thailand - perhaps in winter when you visit. We have another friend from Texas who always visits for the winter too. Metta Sarah ==== #126179 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:20 pm Subject: Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > It seems like the important point is that the sotapanna would not only not have the inclination to do anything harmful or evil, but would also not engage in such activities. He would only be helping others from a kusala standpoint without regard to what the others might be doing [ie, without negative reaction, which is also akusala.] .... S: No akusala to the degree of killing, stealing...deliberately harming others in such ways. it doesn't mean that cittas are all kusala however! Helping others is bound to be with mixed motives most the time. ... > > I don't think you would say that a sotapanna could kill someone because it is his duty in the military, but he could only support others. ... S: Definitely will not deliberately kill or wound another, not even an insect, let alone another human. ... R: If so, his ability to work in the military would be constrained by the intention not to harm any beings. I could even imagine a scenario in which the sotapanna would naturally help the wounded of the opposing army. ... S: Just depending on accumulations. Again, only cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising by conditions - in reality, no military, no sotapanna, no killing! Metta Sarah ====== #126180 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, >S:Good! And all these conditioned namas and rupas, which we agree >are >anatta, are therefore beyond the control of any self regardless >of the >activity. Still agreed? >=============================================== Yes. I do guess where this is going to. You can correctly say that we can't control mental states (right) therefore why meditate? But we do set conditions for daily life and alter what happens. Example: if it is cold we control bodily temperature by putting on more clothing, switch on the heater, drink hot tea, etc. If one is hungry, one goes to the fridge and eats. If one wants to be stronger, one goes to the gym, works out, eats right, etc... Why can't one practice setting cause for more future kusala with meditation like hitting the gym? Sarah, Nina, all: When you read, and consider "the realities", don't you do something similar? With best wishes, Alex #126181 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:36 am Subject: Dhamma Gym truth_aerator Hello Pt, You gave great example, thanks! >I think that kusala (of samatha kind) develops on occasions when >arising kusala is recognised as kusala as and when it happens. >=================== What exactly do you mean by recognition? Can you, please, give specific example? What do you think about thinking at that occasion: "this state is kusala/akusala, anicca, anatta", etc ? Or do you think that one should "just be aware"? This sounds like some forms of meditations which do not have to be formal. With best wishes, Alex #126182 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 26-aug-2012, om 16:16 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, Nina, all: When you read, and consider "the realities", > don't you do something similar? ------ N: Read what I wrote to Luraya about meditation. It includes so many things. I rather use the word bhaavanaa, mental development. Considering realities, in order to have more understanding of the present realities. Coming closer to the present reality, be it seeing, visible object, any reality appearing through one of the six doors. We do not select any reality in order to concentrate on it. Sati of Satipa.t.thaana is is not concentration. And the aim is always having more understanding of the present reality, not: having many moments of sati. Always keeping in mind that "we" cannot direct sati to a particular reality or make it arise. In your other psot to pt: pt:>I think that kusala (of samatha kind) develops on occasions when >arising kusala is recognised as kusala as and when it happens. >=================== A:What exactly do you mean by recognition? Can you, please, give specific example? What do you think about thinking at that occasion: "this state is kusala/akusala, anicca, anatta", etc ? ------- N: It is not thinking, it is sati sampaja~n~na, sati and pa~n~na of the level of samatha. It is right understanding of kusala as kusala and of akusala as akusala, but not: understanding kusala and akusala as anattaa. --------- A:Or do you think that one should "just be aware"? This sounds like some forms of meditations which do not have to be formal. ------ N: It has to be with right understaning of the level of samatha, not just awareness without understanding. Nina. #126183 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, Thank you for your reply: >N:It is not thinking, it is sati sampaja~n~na, sati and pa~n~na of >the level of samatha. It is right understanding of kusala as kusala >and of akusala as akusala, but not: understanding kusala and >akusala as anattaa. >==================================== Though one should study Dhamma well, thoughts "anatta! anicca!" etc are not required on these specific occasions when phenomena occur? With best wishes, Alex #126184 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs ashkenn2k Dear pt thanks, Expositor, has defined the meaning well. What is this Khine - an author who I am not familiar with. To me, defilements and corrupt are acceptable words to use for kilesa as the meaning is not lost. cheers KC #126185 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:18 am Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Sloth and Topor 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 60-61 <> KC #126186 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:27 am Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Sloth and Torpor 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<(3) Stiffness and Torpor (thmamiddha) 1265. The arising of stiffness and torpor comes about through unwise bringing to mind in regard to boredom (arati) and so on. "Boredom" is a name for dissatisfaction; "languor" (tandi) is a name for bodily laziness; "stretching" (vijambhika) is a name for bending of the body; "faintness after meals" {bhattasammada) is a name for giddiness after meals and feverishness after meals. "And mental lassitude" {cetaso ca linattam) is a name for the sluggish state of the mind. Because of employing unwise bringing to mind much in regard to these [states] beginning with boredom, stiffness and torpor arise. 1266. Hence the Blessed One said: There is boredom, bhikkhus, and languor, stretching, faintness after meals and mental lassitude. Unwise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen stiffness and torpor or for the growth and increase of unarisen stiffness and torpor' (S v 103). 1267. But its abandoning comes about through wise bringing to mind in regard to the element of initiating (drambhadhdtu), etc. The "element of initiating" is a name for the first initial energy. The "element of launching" (nikkamadhdtu), because of going forth {nikkantatta) from indolence, is stronger than the last; the "element of furthering'' {parakkamadhdtu), because of proceeding to further stages (param param thanam akkamanato), is stronger than the last. Because of employing wise bringing to mind much in regard to that threefold energy, stiffness and torpor comes to be abandoned. 1268. Hence the Blessed One said: There is the element of initiating, bhikkhus, and the element of launching, and the element of furthering. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the non-arising of non-arisen stiffness and torpor or for the non-growth and non-increase of arisen stiffness and torpor for the non-growth and non-increase of arisen stiffness and torpor (S v I05). KC #126187 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:27 am Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Six things lead to abandoing of Sloth and Torpor 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion 1269. Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of stiffness and torpor: |273| (I) grasping the sign in over-eating, (2) complete change of posture, (3) bringing to mind the perception ot light, (4) living in the open. (5) good friendship. (6) suitable talk. 1270. (1) For stiffness and torpor are abandoned in one who grasps the sign in overeating thus: -Stiffness and torpor weighing down upon him like a huge elephant come to one who sits in his day or night quarters doing the recluse's duties after eating food like one who eats till he has to be lifted from his seat, or till he rolls there on the ground, or till his clothes come off. or till the crows peck from his mouth, or till he vomits. But that does not happen to the bhikkhu who practises maintaining himself by drinking water [to end his meal] leaving still room for four or five lumps of food.' 127I. (2) Also in one who. when stiffness and torpor descend upon him in one posture, changes from that to another. 1272. (3) Also in one who brings to mind by night the light of the moon or the light of a lamp or the light of a torch, or by day the light of the sun. 1273. (4) And also in one who lives in the open. 1274. (5) Stiffness and torpor are abandoned also in one who cultivates good friends who have abandoned stiffness and torpor like the Elder Maha Kassapa. 1275. (6) Also it is abandoned through suitable talk, while standing, sitting, etc.. which is based on the ascetic practices (dhutahga). Hence it was said above: "Six things lead to the abandoning of stiffness and torpor: grasping the sign in over-eating, complete change of posture, bringing to mind the perception of light, living in the open, good friendship, suitable talk". 1276. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path that there comes to be the future non-arising of the stiffness and torpor abandoned by means of these six things.>> KC #126188 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Sarah, and Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > K: For ill will and harsh speech for it to be become kamma pattha, there must be a thought that wish a harm on another person. > > S:.....and the abuse/speech itself: > > > In Expositor pg 132 and 133 > <....>Harsh speech is proportionate to the virtue of one concerning whom harsh words are spoken. The three constituent factors of this offence are: Another to be abused, angry thought, and the abuse>> > > S: "...and the abuse." So the physical act -- act of speech or physical abusive action -- must be completed as well for the kamma patha to take place. I am probably a little slow, but the question that keeps confusing me is: what is the status of the "abuse," the physical act in the world of dhammas, since rupas don't cause kamma, and yet are necessary for kamma patha to take place... Can you help me with this? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #126189 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/26/2012 3:26:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: So the physical act -- act of speech or physical abusive action -- must be completed as well for the kamma patha to take place. I am probably a little slow, but the question that keeps confusing me is: what is the status of the "abuse," the physical act in the world of dhammas, since rupas don't cause kamma, and yet are necessary for kamma patha to take place... Can you help me with this? ============================= Me, who knows very little about this and probably would be better off being quiet about it, butting in anyway (LOL): The kamma is the intention, and with nothing canceling it out, will eventually produce kammic consequence/vipaka of some degree. Kammapatha is physical, verbal, or mental action carrying out intention. Kamma not strong enough to manifest in such action is, obviously, weaker than kamma which does manifest in such action, and the weaker kamma will produce weaker vipaka. Intention to abuse strong enough to lead to the intended abuse (the kammapatha) will produce strong vipaka, i.e., strong kammic fruition in "the abuser's" mind stream. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126190 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:22 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" dhammasaro Good friends all, If I may... on: R: If so, his ability to work in the military would be constrained by the intention not to harm any beings. I could even imagine a scenario in which the sotapanna would naturally help the wounded of the opposing army. In the USA military, there are many non-combatants; such as, religious chaplains, doctors, nurses, orderlies, and medics. The medical personnel treat both sides. In addition, very few of military personnel actually participate in combat. I do not know the personnel breakdown in the military of Buddhist countries. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............................ rest deleted by Chuck ................................................... #126191 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:42 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. > > > J: If you'd like to learn more about the 24 conditions, there's always the Patthana (last book of the Abhidhamma), where they are dealt with in detail :-)) > > > > Rob E: I would, but don't know when I'll have a copy of the Patthana handy, particularly in English. I've been barred from buying any more books til 2 conditions of my own have been met: > > > > a. Increase my business income [having a tough time at the moment] > > b. Get rid of some of the books that are blocking up our condo, or: > > c. Get us a bigger living space [dependent on condition a.] > > =============== > > J: Good luck with this (just a suggestion, but go for condition b first :-)) But that would entail giving up some of my books! :-) > > =============== > > J: We need to be realistic, and patient. > > > > Rob E: I'm actually pretty patient in terms of waiting for actual experience. I realize the path is long. Still, certain things that are jarring are hard to just let lie. > > =============== > > J: Yes, I know how it is: patient except with those things we find annoying :-)) Exactly. > > =============== > > Rob E: As for realistic, well...not something I'm often accused of... > > =============== > > J: Not sure if this is a typo, or a reflection of your involvement in the world of acting/drama :-)) Perhaps so - I am just saying that reality, as it is called, is not always my strong suit. I've always been into one or another of the arts - music, poetry, dramatic arts... My college degree was in philosophy, so I can't really be thought of as a realist. > > =============== > > Rob E: Perhaps it would be helpful for me to see something on why there can only be one citta at a time. I know it's a mainstay of dhamma theory, but I don't think I've ever seen it explained. > > =============== > > J: This will have to wait until I have access to texts (and have figured out where to start looking :-)). Perhaps Nina or somebody can help. I'll look forward to whatever you may be able to share. "No rush." > > =============== > > Rob E: I appreciate seeing the list of conditions. In and of themselves they are worth investigating. Maybe when I am able I can look at Nina's book on Conditions. And I'm sure K. Sujin's Survey would be excellent to go back to as well. > > =============== > > J: Yes, these books would be a great place to start (even if you are able to meet the conditions for adding the Patthana to your library), and both available in hard copy free of charge and also on-line. I am lucky enough to have a hard-bound copy of Survey, thanks to my Dhamma friends. I'm pretty sure Nina sent it to me, if sanna serves me correctly. I should remember, but sometimes my brain is a little bit swiss-cheesey. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126192 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:55 pm Subject: Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > R: If so, his ability to work in the military would be constrained by the intention not to harm any beings. I could even imagine a scenario in which the sotapanna would naturally help the wounded of the opposing army. > ... > S: Just depending on accumulations. Again, only cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising by conditions - in reality, no military, no sotapanna, no killing! I am still having a hard time understanding how this contention squares with the requirements for kamma patha - intention to harm, a being to harm, and the act of actually harming that being. How does that fit in with the above? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126193 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:01 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/26/2012 3:26:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > So the physical act -- act of speech or physical abusive action -- must be > completed as well for the kamma patha to take place. > > I am probably a little slow, but the question that keeps confusing me is: > what is the status of the "abuse," the physical act in the world of > dhammas, since rupas don't cause kamma, and yet are necessary for kamma patha to > take place... > > Can you help me with this? > ============================= > Me, who knows very little about this and probably would be better off > being quiet about it, butting in anyway (LOL): > > The kamma is the intention, and with nothing canceling it out, will > eventually produce kammic consequence/vipaka of some degree. > Kammapatha is physical, verbal, or mental action carrying out > intention. Kamma not strong enough to manifest in such action is, obviously, weaker > than kamma which does manifest in such action, and the weaker kamma will > produce weaker vipaka. > Intention to abuse strong enough to lead to the intended abuse (the > kammapatha) will produce strong vipaka, i.e., strong kammic fruition in "the > abuser's" mind stream. I think this is a very cogent explanation of how this takes place. The only thing that bothers me is that the being and the action are spoken of as necessary for kamma patha. Sure, that makes the intention stronger, but are the being and action real or are you saying that such referents are just a code for events in the mind? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126194 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" epsteinrob Hi Chuck. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > > Good friends all, > > If I may... on: > > > > R: If so, his ability to work in the military would be constrained by > the intention not to harm any beings. I could even imagine a scenario in > which the sotapanna would naturally help the wounded of the opposing > army. > > > > In the USA military, there are many non-combatants; such as, religious chaplains, doctors, nurses, orderlies, and medics. The medical personnel treat both sides. In addition, very few of military personnel actually participate in combat. I do not know the personnel breakdown in the military of Buddhist countries. Good point. If one had such a role, serving in the army with non-harmfulness would be possible. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126195 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:17 pm Subject: Re: Kenh1 epsteinrob Hi Ken O. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Rob E > > On one aspect about intentional, we just have to be careful even though we thought we may be unintentional. It could lead to misconduct also > > Commentary to Brahamajala Sutta on False speech > <>. There are four factors to false speech, an untrue situation, the though of deceiving, the corresponding effort and communication of the meaning to another > > We may thing we are just making a casual joke on something unreal, but it could be a fault. At times we may think we are not deceiving, however, we could have done it out of habit. So just have to be mindful. Good to be mindful in any case, so that one does not mistakenly mislead. On the other hand, joking can be okay too, I think. I personally think humor is very nice a lot of times, as long as no one is taking it seriously. Even the sutta says that "the blame is light" when monks are just exaggerating in jest. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126196 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, >________________________________ > From: Robert E >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >> R: If so, his ability to work in the military would be constrained by the intention not to harm any beings. I could even imagine a scenario in which the sotapanna would naturally help the wounded of the opposing army. >> ... >> S: Just depending on accumulations. Again, only cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising by conditions - in reality, no military, no sotapanna, no killing! > >R: I am still having a hard time understanding how this contention squares with the requirements for kamma patha - intention to harm, a being to harm, and the act of actually harming that being. How does that fit in with the above? .... S: A sotapanna won't have any intention to kill or harm even if he's in the military. No dosa conditioned by wrong view of other beings to condition such intentions. As to whether he'd still work in the military, help the wounded or anything else - it will all depend on accumulations. Just thinking in terms of such situations won't help us to understand the presently arising dhammas now. For example, now there is seeing which sees visible object, thinking a lot about what is seen because of vitakka and other mental factors. There's no intention to harm or kill now. So, it's just the same, wherever we are - just vipaka cittas followed by kusala or akusala cittas depending on conditions and accumulations. In truth, no person, no sotapanna, no opposing army. Metta Sarah ===== #126197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:08 pm Subject: What I heard, Death. nilovg Dear friends, I just heard this on a Thai recording and I read it to Lodewijk last night. Death. Most people are afraid of death or of pain occurring just before dying. There is often pain when we are not dying yet. Why is one afraid of pain, pain is pain, and one is not dying yet. When death occurs one is not aware of it. Only one citta, the dying- consciousness or cuti-citta arises that is of the same type as the bhavanga citta, life-continuum, but it does not perform the function of bhavanga. (N: the bhavanga-citta arises in between the processes of citta and they have as function to preserve the continuity in a lifespan. They do not experience an object of this world, presenting itself through one of the six doorways. They experience the same object as the rebirth-consciousness.) When the cuti-citta arises one departs from the state of being this person. This citta can arise at any time. We should not worry, think about it or fear it. When death occurs nobody is aware of it, it is so fast. When we habitually develop understanding and kusala, we can see that there is a cause that was the condition to be born as a human and to have the opportunity to listen to the Dhamma. More than 2500 years ago the Tipi.taka and the commentaries were established so that we can consider the Dhamma in the right way. Understanding at this moment can continue to be accumulated and it will go on to next lives. When we are not arahats we have to be reborn, death is followed by rebirth. Why having regret about it? We must see again and hear again in a next life. We all know each other, but this is not for a long time, that is certain. We have nothing to fear, at any time the cuti- citta can arise, but we will not be aware of it. We are afraid of pain, but when we have pain we do not experience death. Perhaps we think that today we have a lot of pain and that we will die, but we may not die yet, for several days, for several months, or the pain goes away. Or we die. These are stories we are thinking of, but cittas arise and fall away without any interval. How old are we? Aeons, because citta arises and falls away at each moment. ********* Nina. #126198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 nilovg Dear Alex, Op 26-aug-2012, om 17:15 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Though one should study Dhamma well, thoughts "anatta! anicca!" etc > are not required on these specific occasions when phenomena occur? ------- N: They may occur by conditions or they may not, also such thoughts are anattaa, anicca. We cannot say that anything is required. Who can direct thoughts? Nina. #126199 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:21 pm Subject: Re: feeling sarahprocter... Hi Alberto & Luraya, Alberto wrote a detailed and helpful message, #126090. Lots of points to discuss further in the discussions in Poland soon! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" wrote: > For each single consciousness and its accompanying factors arising there are specific conditions that caused their arising, likewise for the consciousness that follows up immediately after the one that has just fallen away. > Trying to control or direct these realities on a self basis I think can be compared to pouring petrol on a wood fire on a hot summer windy day in order to control or direct it... > > As Lukas pointed out the understanding of realities is a long process, not one to rush into; another image that Khun Sujin employs to stress this truth is that of the knife's handle, wearing off, unnoticebly and naturally, by its use. .... S: All very well said. I like the analogy of pouring petrol on the wood fire. The other day we discussed how there is nothing worse in life than wrong view, a view that self can direct life. No matter what hardships we endure, wrong view is more serious. Tadao mentioned a sutta to this effect (I think in AN). Does anyone know which one it would be? I can only think about the ones about the wrong path. Metta Sarah =====