#126200 From: Ken O Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. ashkenn2k Dear Rob E and Howard The strength of kamma does not depends solely on the kamma alone. It also involved the objects that the kamma is act on. The objects which kamma act on like killing a parent is more blamable than compare to a normal human being. In other cases, it depends on the qualities of the obejct, like killing a layperson who holds the five precept is more blamable than one who kills a criminal. Also it does not mean that just because it is kamma patha, it is a stronger kamma. So far, I have yet read in the commentary or text to say there is such a comparision. For eg, there are restlessness and mana, and that could only be eradicated in Arahant, could we say just because they are not kamma patha, they are not strong when they arise with kamma as mental commitant. These two cetasikas are conditions for kamma formations in the next life. IMHO, kamma patha which bring result for it to happen, it has to be meet the conditions for it to consider a kamma patha, if not, it could be considered as kamma. That is the difference between them which I know of. KC #126201 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: Re: feeling philofillet Hi Sarah > > .... there is nothing worse in life than wrong view, a view that self can direct life. Just out of curiosity, how about the wrong view that there are no results to deeds? For example, I don't believe that there is a self that can direct life, but I've come to feel it is silly/superstitious to think there will be a fallout from, say, killing a mosquito. (I don't enjoy it and there is a moment of sympathy for the mosquito, but there isn't dread for the results except for a vaguely superstitious "what if it's true?" feeling.) I think the latter form of wrong view is probably worse, wouldn't you say? Well, they are all to be eradicated, of course, they are all bad. I guess you'll say it is being subject to the needs of self that motivates the need to kill the mosquito? Phil p.s interested to see if there will be a repair/mending of my wrong view about results of kamma. Really no way to know how the development of kusala will or will not play out, beyond control, watching with interest! #126202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? nilovg Dear Phil (and Rob E), Op 26-aug-2012, om 1:05 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Does the variegated nature of citta refer especially to > thinking? Is seeing variegated, is hearing variegated? (Either in > itself or because of the variegated nature of ruupa that is the > object of seeing and hearing?) In a following paragraph we find > "hence, we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta that > sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different > from the citta that hears through the ears, which is another type > of citta. The citta that thinks is again another type of citta." > But within thinking there is so much variegation of citta. How > about within seeing? Is the citta that sees a dark color variegated > from the citta that sees a light color or is only the rupa variegated? ------ N: Seeing is kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. We see and hear pleasant objects or unpleasant objects, but since it is only one moment of citta it passes so quickly and we cannot find out about the vipaaka. Only when body-consciousness arises and experiences a pleasant object or unpleasant object the impact is more intense. As to thinking: this is with kusala citta or akusala citta and these cittas are accompanied by a great variety of cetasikas. See also Ch 24 of Survey: --------- And this for Rob E, perhaps it can help to understand that there is only one citta at a time: N: When there is seeing there cannot be hearing at the same time. Long ago (when I first came to her, I had the same question) Acharn asked me to consider; can you think of two things at the same time? -------- Nina. #126203 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feeling sarahprocter... Hi Phil, >________________________________ > From: philip >> > .... there is nothing worse in life than wrong view, a view that self can direct life. > >Just out of curiosity, how about the wrong view that there are no results to deeds? For example, I don't believe that there is a self that can direct life, but I've come to feel it is silly/superstitious to think there will be a fallout from, say, killing a mosquito. (I don't enjoy it and there is a moment of sympathy for the mosquito, but there isn't dread for the results except for a vaguely superstitious "what if it's true?" feeling.) I think the latter form of wrong view is probably worse, wouldn't you say? Well, they are all to be eradicated, of course, they are all bad. I guess you'll say it is being subject to the needs of self that motivates the need to kill the mosquito? ... S: It is because of self-view that there are these other views about killing, mosquito and people, not understanding seeing , bodily experience or death consciousness as results, vipaka cittas and so on. “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3). You asked about understanding citta, such as seeing now, distinct from visible object. At this moment, there is just the element which experiences and then gone, another moment which experiences, then gone. At the moment of seeing, just this world of experience of what is seen. There can be understanding now of its characteristic. Such understanding has to begin now, otherwise there will never be the more highly developed understanding. If we think this is impossible or have doubts, these are just more elements of experiencing which can also be directly known when they appear now. Cetana (kamma) intending to harm is just another element that can also be known now if it appears. It is understanding only which will know when it arises and will see the danger in accumulating such kinds of akusala. Not me or you or anyone else. There were discussions about 'Dhamma as therapy' before - Dhamma is the only 'therapy' of real value because it's the only 'therapy' that can eliminate the idea of self through right understanding. Self-view has to be eradicated first in order for other wrong views to be eradicated. >p.s interested to see if there will be a repair/mending of my wrong view about results of kamma. Really no way to know how the development of kusala will or will not play out, beyond control, watching with interest! ... S: Again, no self who can do anything about it. Just conditioned ways of thinking, as you know. It's only developed understanding that really understands kamma and vipaka, but there can be a beginning now to understand cause and effect dhammas as anatta. Metta Sarah p.s Are you back in Japan now? It was great to have Tadao at the discussion on Sat and we look forward to seeing him again on Wed. I'll ask him if he can join our intended KK trip in Jan. Btw, anyone, 4th-11th Nov, a dhamma discussion trip to Vietnam as organized by our Vietnamese friend who wrote to the list (c/o Nina) recently. We're hoping to join. ===== #126204 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:31 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? sarahprocter... Dear Phil, I find this topic helpful - it's a reminder that each citta falls away instantly and never arises again. Each one is distinct in nature. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: Does the variegated nature of citta refer especially to thinking? Is seeing variegated, is hearing variegated? (Either in itself or because of the variegated nature of ruupa that is the object of seeing and hearing?) .... S: If seeing and hearing weren't 'variegated', conditioned by kamma to arise at different moments and see different visible objects, there'd be no variegated thinking and perception on account of such experiences. Each moment of seeing is completely different from any other moment of seeing. This is what is meant by vinnana khandha - each citta arises, falls away, never to reappear - each one distinct in nature, even if we are just talking about seeing or hearing cittas. Here are some extracts from posts (the first one to you!!) which I wrote before. #114266 >P: Does variegated citta (vicitta) refer to the content of what we think about, which seems to be what is said on p52-53 of SPD or does it refer to all the different permutations of cittas according to accompanying cetasikas? ... S: Each moment of seeing consciousness arising in a day, even those arising now, are all different, all "variegated", arising and falling away, never to arise again. This is because of all the different conditions which have caused these moments of seeing to arise, such as the past kamma, the visible object (which has already arisen when seeing arises), the eye-sense (which again is arising and falling away and has already arisen when seeing arises), the accompanying cetasikas such as phassa (contact), sanna (perception) and manasikara (attention). This is what is meant by "ayatana", the meeting of specific dhammas in such a way that the seeing now could not be any other seeing - like the balance of dhammas on a needle-point. The same applies to any other kind of citta, such as the cittas which are involved in thinking about objects. Each citta experiences its object according to the way it has been accumulated and the accompanying cetasikas which are never the same - that's why all conditioned dhammas are khandhas, each one different from any other one. It is because of the differences in the cittas and cetasikas that there is thinking about different ideas, different images all day long and even during our dreams. **** #106170 S: from the Atthasalini: "By 'consciousness' (citta) is meant that which thinks of its object, is aware variously. Or, inasmuch as this work 'consciousness' is common to all states or cleasses of consciousness, that which is known as worldly, moral, immoral, or the great inoperative, is termed 'consciousness,' because it arranges itself in a series (cinoti), or, its own series or continuity) by way of apperception in a process of thought. And the resultant is also termed 'consciousness' because it is accumulated (cito) by kamma and the corruptions. Moreover, all (four classes) are termed 'consciousness' because they are variegated (citra) according to circumstance. The meaning of consciousness may also be understood from its capacity of producing a variety or diversity of effects." [**NEW NOTE added: note that all four classes, including vipaka cittas are called citta because they are variegated......] ... S: Here, we have to understand that when the translation uses "thinks of its object, is aware variously", it means the citta experiences or is conscious of its object. The cittas experience all the various objects exactly as they are. Again, by "in a process of thought", what is meant is that the cittas arise in a series, according to conditions, experiencing their various objects. The cittas may be of four classes: kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. The kusala and akusala cittas may be of the strength of kamma. The vipaka citas refer to the (mental) results of kamma and the kiriya cittas refer to all other cittas which are 'inoperative' - meaning they are not 'cause' or 'result' cittas, not kusala, akusala or vipaka cittas. *** #101678 S: kaama~n c'ettha ekam eva.m citta.m na hoti cittaanam pana antogadhattaa etesu ya.m ki~nci eka.m pi cittataaya cittam pi vattu.m va.t.tati. "Although any single one of these (cittas) is verily not variegated in itself and by itself in the sense explained thus, it is nevertheless proper to say of any one of them, that is it so called from its variegated character, because it is included in consciousness as making up a variegated whole." ***** "...'Tam pi kho bhikkhave cara.na.m citta.m citten'eva cintita.m.' Tena pi kho bhikkhave cara.nena cittena citta.m yeva citataran ti." " Bhikkhus, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, Bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece [SN iii 151]' " *** Metta Sarah ===== #126205 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:39 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (126191) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > > Rob E: Perhaps it would be helpful for me to see something on why there can only be one citta at a time. I know it's a mainstay of dhamma theory, but I don't think I've ever seen it explained. > > I'll look forward to whatever you may be able to share. "No rush." > =============== J: For a start, here is an extract from Ven Naarada's translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha that I managed to find (with help from Sarah). While it is the translator's note rather than a quote from the texts, it does contain quite a bit of description/explanation. From "A Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha)", Edited by Naarada Mahaa-Thera, Ch IV `Analysis of Thought-Processes' Note 4. Thought-processes << << << << According to Abhidhamma ordinarily there is no moment when we do not experience a particular kind of consciousness, hanging on to some objectwhether physical or mental. The time-limit of such a consciousness is termed one thought-moment. The rapidity of the succession of such thought-moments is hardly conceivable by the ken of human knowledge. Books state that within the brief duration of a flash of lightning, or in the twinkling of an eye billions of thought-moments may arise and perish. Each thought-moment consists of three minor instants (kha.nas). They are uppaada (arising or genesis), .thiti (static or development), and bhan.ga (cessation or dissolution). Birth, decay, and death correspond to these three states. The interval between birth and death is regarded as decay. Immediately after the cessation stage of a thought-moment there results the genesis stage of the subsequent thought-moment. Thus each unit of consciousness perishes conditioning another, transmitting at the same time all its potentialities to its successor. There is, therefore, a continuous flow of consciousness like a stream without any interruption. >> >> >> >> Hoping you find this worthy of consideration :-)) Jon #126206 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:43 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? philofillet Dear Nina and Sarah Thank you for your explanations. I'm quite happy with this series, it's generating a nice stockpile of posts for reflection. I think I will record them on audio as well - I like that. Phil #126207 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: feeling philofillet Hi Sarah >> Cetana (kamma) intending to harm is just another element that can also be known now if it appears. It is understanding only which will know when it arises and will see the danger in accumulating such kinds of akusala. Not me or you or anyone else. Excellent, thank you. You always help me to reconnect/stay connected to Dhamma, as does Nina. There is an interesting confidence involved in not freaking about about akusala, for example when I am rude here, or kill a mosquito, or when there is other akusala kamma patha. I would confess to enjoying saying rude things to people at times (and it will come again) because there has to be truthfulness. There is not a slack acceptance and comfort with it, but there is also not a moral crisis of any kind, I really do feel that a dim understanding of the reality of impersonal dhammas performing their function is sinking in. Luraya was worrying that a premature interest in anatta could lead to trouble, and I have felt the same way, but really, understanding is best, always. Understanding will arise and help to eliminate the bad behaviour. Phil worrying about Phil can do nothing but come up with desperate strategems that may bring temporary reprieve in this lifetime but do nothing whatsoever for real liberation. PHil #126208 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/27/2012 1:01:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I think this is a very cogent explanation of how this takes place. The only thing that bothers me is that the being and the action are spoken of as necessary for kamma patha. Sure, that makes the intention stronger, but are the being and action real or are you saying that such referents are just a code for events in the mind? ------------------------------------------------------------ HCW: I believe that an actual, i.e., unimagined, being is an extraordinarily complex amalgam of elementary mental and physical phenomena, i.e., namas and rupas, within numerous mind streams, and conceived of in those mind streams as constituting an individual entity. Without a being, there can be no physical action involving such. However, were there no being acted upon but "the actor" BELIEVING she/he was acting in relation to a being, there would still be kammapatha - namely mental (and possibly verbal) kammapatha. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126209 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard, Death. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 8/27/2012 3:08:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: When we are not arahats we have to be reborn, death is followed by rebirth. Why having regret about it? We must see again and hear again in a next life. We all know each other, but this is not for a long time, that is certain. We have nothing to fear, at any time the cuti- citta can arise, but we will not be aware of it. We are afraid of pain, but when we have pain we do not experience death. Perhaps we think that today we have a lot of pain and that we will die, but we may not die yet, for several days, for several months, or the pain goes away. Or we die. These are stories we are thinking of, but cittas arise and fall away without any interval. How old are we? Aeons, because citta arises and falls away at each moment. ================================= If I may add something: There are teachings in the Theravada tradition that show "beings" reborn in countless lives in which they encounter, in varying relations, the same other beings again and again, due to related kamma. So, even loss of loved ones (and not-so-loved ones ;-) is incomplete! With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126210 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 8/27/2012 3:52:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Rob E and Howard The strength of kamma does not depends solely on the kamma alone. It also involved the objects that the kamma is act on. The objects which kamma act on like killing a parent is more blamable than compare to a normal human being. In other cases, it depends on the qualities of the obejct, like killing a layperson who holds the five precept is more blamable than one who kills a criminal. Also it does not mean that just because it is kamma patha, it is a stronger kamma. So far, I have yet read in the commentary or text to say there is such a comparision. For eg, there are restlessness and mana, and that could only be eradicated in Arahant, could we say just because they are not kamma patha, they are not strong when they arise with kamma as mental commitant. These two cetasikas are conditions for kamma formations in the next life. IMHO, kamma patha which bring result for it to happen, it has to be meet the conditions for it to consider a kamma patha, if not, it could be considered as kamma. That is the difference between them which I know of. KC ============================== When I say that kamma strong enough to be expressed in action creates stronger vipaka than kamma not so strong, I mean to compare acts of intention that intend the very same sort of action, comparing apples with apples, and not apples with oranges. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126211 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:26 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi KenO, > What is this Khine - an author who I am not familiar with. Ah, that's what you were asking, sorry, I thought you were asking about the commentary. Khine is the author of a newer translation of Dhammasangani in English: Enumeration of the Ultimate Realities Translated by U Kyaw Khine Sri Satguru Publications First edition 1999 Most people say it's a more readable than the old translation by Rhys Davids. It does seem a little more straightforward, though to me it also seems it is a little less literal. Best wishes pt #126212 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: feeling philofillet Hello again >>understanding is best, always. Understanding will arise and help to eliminate the bad behaviour. Phil worrying about Phil can do nothing but come up with desperate strategems that may bring temporary reprieve in this lifetime but do nothing whatsoever for real liberation. I'll just add that by "strategems" I also mean turning to suttas and digging in to them to find remedies for problems. For example MN 19 (20?), the sutta on ways to deal with distracting thoughts or something like that. I remember hearing Bhikkhu Bodhi talk on them, explaining them as prescribed methods, and I fell for it, he is such a famous and respected monk after all. But self going out to seek methods won't do any good, and it doesn't matter if the methods are found in suttas, when self is seeking solutions, suttas are no more helpful than Superman comics. Only an understanding of the presently arisen citta can possible help, and it could very well be that there will be arising of dhammas in line with those suttas. But we can't go out and look for them, wanting to get away from akusala. That will just lead us deeper into akusala, in subtle ways that escapte detection by the famous 95% or 99% that Rob E and others champion. (Since when did the majority view represent a truly superior understanding of anything?) Phil Phil #126213 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard, Death. sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Howard, Let me add a comment too - >vangorko@... writes: > > "......Perhaps we >think that today we have a lot of pain and that we will die, but we >may not die yet, for several days, for several months, or the pain >goes away. Or we die. These are stories we are thinking of, but >cittas arise and fall away without any interval. How old are we? >Aeons, because citta arises and falls away at each moment." >================================= S: This is similar to something K.Sujin was saying on Saturday as well. She was suggesting that we think about "sammuti" (conventional) death because there is no awareness, no understanding of present dhammas. "Stories we are thinking of, but cittas arise and fall away without any interval." Cuti citta is another bhavanga citta - death at each moment. The variegated cittas arising now, one by one, never to arise again. Difficult! We need to hear about , consider, reflect on and understand dhammas appearing now again and again. So much ignorance has been accumulated over those aeons! Metta Sarah ====== #126214 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, >________________________________ > From: ptaus1 >Khine is the author of a newer translation of Dhammasangani in English: ... S: We find it a big improvement and more complete. We got a copy from Burma but it's now available from Amazon or Pariyatti (just forget which) in 2 volumes. Well worth getting - then you can share extracts from this source too:-) Metta Sarah ====== #126215 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard, Death. nilovg Dear Sarah (and Howard), Op 27-aug-2012, om 14:45 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: This is similar to something K.Sujin was saying on Saturday as > well. She was suggesting that we think about > "sammuti" (conventional) death because there is no awareness, no > understanding of present dhammas. "Stories we are thinking of, but > cittas arise and fall away without any interval." Cuti citta is > another bhavanga citta - death at each moment. The variegated > cittas arising now, one by one, never to arise again. ------ N: Thinking about meeting again in a next life someone who is dear to us now is also thinking of a story. The reality is citta arising and falling away, never to return, even now. ------- > > S: Difficult! > > We need to hear about , consider, reflect on and understand dhammas > appearing now again and again. So much ignorance has been > accumulated over those aeons! ------ N: Yes, difficult because we are so ignorant of reality. That is why listening is never enough. Nina. #126216 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:13 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Gym ptaus1 Hi Alex, I'll attempt a reply, but have in mind that I'm also still trying to figure this stuff out, so might be wrong. > > pt: I think that kusala (of samatha kind) develops on occasions when >arising kusala is recognised as kusala as and when it happens. > >=================== > > A: What exactly do you mean by recognition? Can you, please, give specific example? pt: It's when a kusala moment happens (e.g. a moment of generosity) and then immediately following that an understanding arises - it knows that this indeed was a moment of kusala and it appreciates the value of such a moment. So, in abhidhamma terms, it's an arising of panna of samatha kind. So, it's a product of the faculty of understanding, rather than the faculty of thinking. > A: What do you think about thinking at that occasion: > "this state is kusala/akusala, anicca, anatta", etc ? pt: Such thinking may arise following a moment of kusala and understanding of its value, but obviously it is the arising of understanding that really matters. If only the thinking arose without the understanding, that wouldn't be development of kusala, but just thinking. Further, it depends whether there's samatha or vipassana kind of panna happening - samatha panna only recognises/knows kusala, there's no insight into anatta, etc. So, one can then think - "this is anatta", but its just thinking, and understanding didn't really penetrate anywhere further than knowing kusala from akusala (so panna remains of samatha kind). > Or do you think that one should "just be aware"? This sounds like some forms of meditations which do not have to be formal. Perhaps, if you want to put it in terms of shoulds, and it depends on what you mean by "aware" - is it just sati, is it panna of samatha kind, is it panna of vipassana kind, etc. I don't really know how all this works. My take is that a moment of kusala (e.g. a moment of kindness) occurs "spontaneously" - as in it can't be willed, or in theoretical terms - it's conditioned. And then, sometimes, understanding (which is also spontaneous, or conditioned) arises which recognises and appreciates such moment. This recognition and appreciation is in essence development of kusala (of samatha kind). When such understanding starts arising relatively frequently, it then becomes natural to "meditate" - even if you sit down, it still happens spontaneously, and because there's such intimate acquaintance with what's kusala and what's not, there's no danger in sitting down and spending some time with it. If there's no such acquaintance with kusala, then we enter a tricky area. Can a method somehow make the arising of understanding more frequent? Most here would say - no. Most elsewhere would say - yes. So, I guess it depends on who you hang out with, until you know for yourself one way or the other. At this stage, I think a method is at its most useful when you realise it doesn't work. Best wishes pt #126217 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:15 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (126191) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > Rob E: Perhaps it would be helpful for me to see something on why there can only be one citta at a time. I know it's a mainstay of dhamma theory, but I don't think I've ever seen it explained. > > I'll look forward to whatever you may be able to share. "No rush." > =============== J: Here's something from the suttas and commentaries to supplement the extract from Ven Naarada's translation of the Abhidhammaattha Sangaha that I sent a short time ago. The sutta compares the mind to a monkey swinging from branch to branch through the forest. The commentary explanation clearly assumes a one-citta-at-a-time model. From (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61:1 Uninstructed, Samyutta Nikaya (Bodhi transl CDB) Sutta: << << << << But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. >> >> >> >> Commentary (Spk): << << << << The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch: - Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. - When the monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises holding to an object of a single kind. >> >> >> >> So, one citta at a time, experiencing one object at a time. Jon #126218 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:18 pm Subject: Re: Dhs ptaus1 Hi Sarah, > S: Exactly. The defilements, kilesa, are just the akusala cetasikas. The sa.mkilit.tha refer to the defiled cittas only. Thanks, such interpretation of the line makes sense to me now. Best wishes pt #126219 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:17 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Gym truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, >Pt:At this stage, I think a method is at its most useful when you >realise it doesn't work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are quite right here. In a sense it is interesting to observe anatta when formal sitting meditation doesn't work. One of the ways that shows anatta is when one has free time, to sit to meditate and try not to move, not to think anything, not to imagine for 5 or more minutes (try an hour). Interesting thing to observe is that no matter how much orders you gave, the body can fidget, and the mind drown in fantasies or thoughts about unimportant things... With best wishes, Alex #126220 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:39 am Subject: object of studying luraya87 Hej!! in one discourse ajahn sujin said: "whateverappears should be object of studying and understanding it better and better." i have had a similiar question before, but still... it takes some time get it :) if i put it to a situation in daily life, what does it mean practically? how to study in the moment of attachment to food arising for example? there is always this strong liking to a taste and attachment arises. in that moment there is no awareness. there is only thinking left in this moment, thinking about the realities. but how to cling less in that moment? to not give in for the attachment? i don't understand!! thank you for helpful answers! #126221 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] object of studying luraya87 well, i guess it is through listening and considering the dhamma more and more. we can understand on an intellectual level and know when lobha, moha and dosa are arising, even though it is not seen by panna. it's just quite new to me still to develop understanding by intellectual understanding, since goenka always told the contrary... luraya ________________________________ From: Luraya Lukas To: "dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com" Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 6:39 PM Subject: [dsg] object of studying Hej!! in one discourse ajahn sujin said: "whateverappears should be object of studying and understanding it better and better." i have had a similiar question before, but still... it takes some time get it :) if i put it to a situation in daily life, what does it mean practically? how to study in the moment of attachment to food arising for example? there is always this strong liking to a taste and attachment arises. in that moment there is no awareness. there is only thinking left in this moment, thinking about the realities. but how to cling less in that moment? to not give in for the attachment? i don't understand!! thank you for helpful answers! ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links #126222 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:56 am Subject: anger and reaction luraya87 hej! i've got another question about anger and the reaction to it. i can accept that there is anger arising, it is conditioned and it is supposed to arise. but somehow i cannot accept that it is conditioned how i react to it. i think there must be a way to not react in a bad way so i don't harm the person i am angry with. by reflecting on anger i can see it and i have the choice not to react in a harmful way. and than there is the feeling of "i" can choose to react in a better way. if there is no i, how can "i" change my behaviour. it will take aeons! no khanti at all! i am confused all the best luraya #126223 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:00 am Subject: Re: anger and reaction philofillet Hi Luraya Please see post. #126207, Sarah's answer to me about killing mosquitos. I am an expert on anger, I used to have many incidents of violent, explosive anger. It seems awareness is develloping gradually so that there is less reactivity to situations, I don't explode anymore. But I will again, I know that, it has been accumulated for so many lifeyimes so of cpurse it will continue to arise. Oh, last week I snapped at an irritating co-worker who was talking too much when I was busy. He was hurt, and shocked. Bad akusala kamma patha, definitely. But I didn't worry about it at all. There was understandung that dhammas that have been accumulated for aeons will continue to arise, it would be foolish to expect them not to. I remember a couple of years ago when I snapped at my partner she said "I thought you were a Buddhist, why are you studying Buddhism?" A typical musunderstanding of what Dhamma is. The point of Dhamma is not to become a calm, sweet-smiling bunny rabbit. The point is to understand reailty. Don't expect any shortcut solutions from A Sujin, you'll be disappointed. Self-help style Buudhism is *everywhere* in this day and age but it is false Dhamma. On the other hand there is confidence that through patient listening and reflecting the defilements gradually lose power, they are losing power. But no "how to" in Dhamma, only in modern self-help "Buddhism." And that us basically everwhere. For a good example, listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi's talks on Majjhima Nikaya. Such an important respected monk, the translator of the tipitika But he treats the suttanta as a collection of how-to manuals, misunderstanding is *everywhere* - almost. Remember, the shortcut is lobha. Phil #126224 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:05 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Kenh1 dhammasaro Good friends all, If I may... on (1) the sutta concerning False Speech and (2) joking; today a monk must confess the lie and in some cases, joking. Hence, a monk is careful about joking with another monk. The offense is considered Pacittiya in the Vinaya-pitaka. Pacittiya is most probably related to the verb pacinati, "to know," and means "to be made known" or "to be confessed." On False Seech, it can be gestures, et cetera... In addition, depending on the type of false speech; it may be much more serious than a simple confession!!! For instance, for making a false but unspecific claim to a superior human state would entail a thullaccaya; falsely accusing another bhikkhu of a pārājika offense would entail a saṅghādisesa and falsely accusing him of a lesser offense would entail a dukkaṭa. These are some of considerations. Hence, a monk has to be careful in her/his speech and actions. [Extracted from Ajahn Thanissaro's Buddhist Monastic Code.] peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ...................... Rest deleted by Chuck ........................................................ #126225 From: Vince Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] anger and reaction cerovzt Hi Lukas, you wrote: > i've got another question about anger and the reaction to it. > i can accept that there is anger arising, it is conditioned and it is supposed to arise. > but somehow i cannot accept that it is conditioned how i react to it. i think there > must be a way to not react in a bad way so i don't harm the person i am angry with. by > reflecting on anger i can see it and i have the choice not to react in a harmful way. > and than there is the feeling of "i" can choose to react in a better way. if there is no > i, how can "i" change my behaviour. it will take aeons! no khanti at all! > i am confused I think very helpful this explanation of the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu: "For the average person, it is extremely difficult to prevent phassa(contact) from developing into vedana. As soon as there is sense-contact, the feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction always follow immediately. It doesn't stop at phassa because there as never been any training in Dhamma. But, when vedana has already developed, when there are already feelings of satisfaction and dissatisfaction, stop it right there. Let feeling remain as merely feeling and let it pass away. Don't allow the reaction to go on and become tanha, wanting this and that in response to the satisfaction or dissatisfaction. Because, if there is satisfaction, then there will be desire, craving, indulgence, possessiveness, envy etc. in consequence. Once there is dissatisfaction, then there is the desire to beat to death, to devastate, and kill. If there are these sorts of desires on the mind, it means that vedana has already developed into tanha. If so, then you must suffer the spiritual disease of Dukkha and nobody can help. All the gods together cannot help. The Buddha said that even he could not help. He has no power over the laws of nature, he is merely one who reveals them so that others can practice in accordance with them. If one practices wrongly one must have Dukkha. If one practices correctly, one has no Dukkha. Thus it is said that if vedana has developed into tanha then nobody can help. As soon as any form of craving has arisen then nobody can help and there will inevitably be Dukkha." * http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha193.htm best, Vince, #126226 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:20 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (8) Varigated nature of cittas, cont'd. philofillet Dear Group Part II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "What shall we do today, this afternoon, tomorrow? If there were no citta we could not perform any action. The fact that we all can perform different actions in a day is due to the variegated naure of the cittas of each one of us. We can see that all our actions in daily life, through body and speech, are different because of the variegated naure of the cittas of each one of us. When we are thinking, citta is the reality that thinks, and each person thinks in a different way. Different people, who are interested in the Dhamma and study it, consider and ponder over it in different ways. They also have different points of view as far as the practice is concerned." (53) (end of passage) Ph: And those different points of view vary through the variegated nature of cittas, and the behaviour that arises are conditionded by variegated cittas. I think I'll re-post some parts from Sarah and Nina's replies to the last SPD post. Redundant perhaps, but things don't sink in quickly for me so it will help if I repost them. Perhaps. N: (quoting Ch. 24 of SPD) N: Seeing is kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. We see and hear pleasant objects or unpleasant objects, but since it is only one moment of citta it passes so quickly and we cannot find out about the vipaaka. Only when body-consciousness arises and experiences a pleasant object or unpleasant object the impact is more intense. As to thinking: this is with kusala citta or akusala citta and these cittas are accompanied by a great variety of cetasikas. S: The same applies to any other kind of citta, such as the cittas which are involved in thinking about objects. Each citta experiences its object according to the way it has been accumulated and the accompanying cetasikas which are never the same - that's why all conditioned dhammas are khandhas, each one different from any other one. It is because of the differences in the cittas and cetasikas that there is thinking about different ideas, different images all day long and even during our dreams. S: kaama~n c'ettha ekam eva.m citta.m na hoti cittaanam pana antogadhattaa etesu ya.m ki~nci eka.m pi cittataaya cittam pi vattu.m va.t.tati. "Although any single one of these (cittas) is verily not variegated in itself and by itself in the sense explained thus, it is nevertheless proper to say of any one of them, that is it so called from its variegated character, because it is included in consciousness as making up a variegated whole." ***** S: "...'Tam pi kho bhikkhave cara.na.m citta.m citten'eva cintita.m.' Tena pi kho bhikkhave cara.nena cittena citta.m yeva citataran ti." " Bhikkhus, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, Bhikkhus, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece [SN iii 151]' " *** #126227 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:09 pm Subject: What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1) epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > It seems to accord with my usual view that conventional activities are sort of "broad-brush" shorthands for the dhammas involved and that the cetana that leads to drinking for instance, can then lead to harsh speech -- also conventional activity -- which then leads to accumulation of akusala on the dhamma level. Is this wrong? > ... > S: You call 'harsh speech' 'conventional activity', but actually harsh speech is akusala of a strength to condition speech intimation and other rupas. That is sort of what I mean - cetana that leads to 'harsh speech' really leads to the rupas involved. > It all comes down to tendencies and accumulations. I agree that in most cases drinking alcohol leads to more akusala even though the person usually doesn't realize it! Better avoided. Well, hopefully my own small amounts of wine w/dinner do not cause me to do anything too foolish... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - #126228 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:39 pm Subject: Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/27/2012 1:01:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > I think this is a very cogent explanation of how this takes place. The > only thing that bothers me is that the being and the action are spoken of as > necessary for kamma patha. Sure, that makes the intention stronger, but are > the being and action real or are you saying that such referents are just a > code for events in the mind? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > HCW: > I believe that an actual, i.e., unimagined, being is an > extraordinarily complex amalgam of elementary mental and physical phenomena, i.e., namas > and rupas, within numerous mind streams, and conceived of in those mind > streams as constituting an individual entity. It would be interesting to see how such arrangements of mental and physical phenomena become organized in such a way as to create the impression of separate individual beings. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #126229 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:45 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: >> Immediately after the cessation stage of a thought-moment there results the genesis stage of the subsequent thought-moment. Thus each unit of consciousness perishes conditioning another, transmitting at the same time all its potentialities to its successor. There is, therefore, a continuous flow of consciousness like a stream without any interruption. > >> >> >> >> > > Hoping you find this worthy of consideration :-)) Thanks, Jon, I think it's excellent. It doesn't explain the micro-moment in which the falling away and then transmission take place, but it's a very good start for me to see the sequence a little more clearly. The image of the continuous stream gives a sense that there really is a connection between citta a and citta b, similar to the crest and then flattening of a wave which gives rise to the next wave. While you could say that the wave is "completely fallen away," it's energy and force is not lost but transmitted to the creation of the next wave. Perhaps something like that takes place - seems likely. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #126230 From: "chandimag1984" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:24 pm Subject: Commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana chandimag1984 Hi all Could anyone of you be kind to provide me the commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana (Abstinence from intoxicating drugs and drinks) ? Thanking you Chandima #126231 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:01 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] object of studying dhammasaro Good friend Luraya Lukas, et al If I may... On: it's just quite new to me still to develop understanding by intellectual understanding, since goenka always told the contrary... IMHO, much of what you read here is mere opinion of the admired contributor. It is up to you and me to decide if the opinion(s) is/are valid for you and me, okay? You will observe there are disagreements in opinions here; which are good, yes? In my case, I study the Tipitaka and meditate. I consider meditation more important... hence, I try to not get involved in Dhamma-vinaya disagreements... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............... Rest deleted by Chuck ................................................................................\ ......................... #126232 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:53 pm Subject: Re: "Serves You Right!" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > I guess there can be kusala 'serves you right' reflection with right understanding but how about if we think "you'll get yours" when we are bothered by someone's behaviour and assume future harsh vipaka for the person? I guess "serves you right" can involve less ill will than imagining future vipaka...and of course nobody knows in which lifetime the results of deeds will arise so unless we are getting eternalistic we can't assume vipaka will fall to that person. > > So "serves you right" can be kusala but not "you'll get yours", I guess. ... S: If there's ill-will, no matter what words are said or thought, it's akusala! Metta Sarah ===== #126233 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:01 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Breach of precepts as a bar to path development dhammasaro Good friend Jon, et al I have not read all 223 messages on this thread... [bummers] 1. I agree with: J: There is no required minimum level of sila in order for an understanding of dhammas to begin to develop. Everyone starts from where they are. 2. In the Tipitaka (Dhamma-vinaya), what careers/jobs did the Historic Buddha teach were not the best or the least desirable? peace... yours in the dhamma-vinaya, Chuck ............................ Rest deleted by Chuck ............................................................... #126234 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > > In Expositor pg 132 and 133 > > <....>Harsh speech is proportionate to the virtue of one concerning whom harsh words are spoken. The three constituent factors of this offence are: Another to be abused, angry thought, and the abuse>> > > > > S: "...and the abuse." > >R: So the physical act -- act of speech or physical abusive action -- must be completed as well for the kamma patha to take place. > > I am probably a little slow, but the question that keeps confusing me is: what is the status of the "abuse," the physical act in the world of dhammas, since rupas don't cause kamma, and yet are necessary for kamma patha to take place... ... S: Not 'slow' at all - I like the way you keep questioning all these difficult issues. As you say, rupas don't cause kamma. It is the cittas that arises with the akusala cetana (kamma) and associated factors which conditions, in this case, the speech intimation (a rupa) along with other rupas conditioned by those cittas make up what we call 'speech'. So it is akusala kamma carried out by way of the speech door. By the speech door, it is this speech intimation, the physical indicator of the intended meaning, that is meant. This is the 'completed' kamma patha only when the 3 factors above are involved. Metta Sarah ==== #126235 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Rob E), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: . Kamma not strong enough to manifest in such action is, obviously, weaker > than kamma which does manifest in such action, and the weaker kamma will > produce weaker vipaka. ... S: As I understand the texts, the weaker kamma, like a thought of annoyance now, but not strong enough to lead to any abuse, just accumulates. So dosa accumulates, all unwholesome factors accumulate, but only when they've accumulated to a degree that there is the speech or action, will results follow. Metta Sarah ===== #126236 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:05 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] object of studying dhammasaro Good friend Luraya Lukas, A quote: The wise and heedful person is familiar with both modes of speaking: the meaning seen by ordinary people and the meaning which they can't understand. One who is fluent in the various modes of speaking is a wise person. Perhaps the attached Dhamma Talk may help... peace... yours a- the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck http://www.budsir.org/Truth/4_two_kinds_of_language.htm http://www.budsir.org/Truth/4_two_kinds_of_language.htm ........................................... Rest deleted by Chuck .................................... #126237 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana 7 - Clear Comprehension - Going Forward and Backward 2 sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, all, > > >S:Good! And all these conditioned namas and rupas, which we agree >are >anatta, are therefore beyond the control of any self regardless >of the >activity. Still agreed? > >=============================================== > > Yes. ... S: You agree with the above and you also agreed with: >>S: In other words, usually blinded by ignorance there's an idea that >it's Alex, Sarah or a person who takes a walk, sits at the computer or >performs other acts. In fact there are only ever mental and physical >phenomena - namas and rupas - at any time. No self at all. >>Do we still agree? >>========================================= > >A: Yes. ... >A: I do guess where this is going to. You can correctly say that we can't control mental states (right) therefore why meditate? .... S: We say we can guess this or that, but these are again, as we agree, just namas, just moments of thinking which are anatta and beyond anyone's control. Whether we talk about meditating, driving, sitting or any other activity, there are just these namas and rupas arising and falling away. If there are conditions to "sit and meditate", more namas and rupas conditioned at such times. So it's not a question of "why" this or that, but just understand the dhammas conditioned now. .... > > But we do set conditions for daily life and alter what happens. Example: if it is cold we control bodily temperature by putting on more clothing, switch on the heater, drink hot tea, etc. ... S: Now you are forgetting what we agreed: that there is no atta to set conditions, to determine anything. When it seems that a Self feels cold and puts on more clothes, really, as stressed in the Satipatthana Sutta and commentary, there are just the various namas and rupas arising and falling away. There are moments of seeing, hearing and bodily experience of cold, there is lots of thinking about these experiences, lots of memory, attachment and ignorance on account of them. Citta conditions rupas and over and over again. All dhammas, all anatta - in reality just an idea of "putting on more clothing....". ... > > If one is hungry, one goes to the fridge and eats. > > If one wants to be stronger, one goes to the gym, works out, eats right, etc... ... S: In ignorance it seems that it's Self that controls the show, but we agree there are just namas and rupas which are conditioned, not in any Self's control at all. .... > > Why can't one practice setting cause for more future kusala with meditation like hitting the gym? ... S: Because there's no Self to practice or do anything. It is wise consideration leading to direct understanding of realities now which will lead to future kusala and the eradication of atta ditthi. ... > > Sarah, Nina, all: When you read, and consider "the realities", don't you do something similar? > ... S: Actually, no 'Sarah', no 'Nina'. Just more namas and rupas. If there are conditions to consider the realities, like now, then there is considering. Understanding the value of wise considering is the condition for more wise considering in future, but this understanding is anatta too, as we agree. Metta Sarah p.s A very nice discussion, Alex. Hope you're keeping well. =================== #126238 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhs sarahprocter... Hi Pt, Jon, Ken O, Lukas & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > The commentary (Expositor) is like posted to Jon: > > < In the triplet of 'Corrupt and corrupting,' corrupting' means 'that which corrupts' (i.e., oppresses or torments a being). 'Corrupt' means 'arisen or occurring together with the corruptions.' 'Corruptible' means - capable of becoming corrupt by attending to self as an object, or permanently conjoined with corruption owing to inability to get beyond the state of being object of corruption. It is a name given to objects of corruption. Corrupt [states] which are (at the same time) objects of corruption are called 'corrupt and corruptible.' The remaining two terms should be understood in the same way as in the preceding triplet (i.e., in the negative sense). > ... S: Here is the Pali for the above: Sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikattike sa.mkilesetiiti sa.mkileso, vibaadhati, upataapeti caati attho. Sa.mkilesena samannaagataati sa.mkili.t.thaa. Attaana.m aaramma.na.m katvaa pavattanena sa.mkilesa.m arahanti , sa.mkilese vaa niyuttaa, tassa aaramma.nabhaavaanatikkamanatoti sa.mkilesikaa. Sa.mkilesassa aaramma.napaccayabhuutaanameta.m adhivacana.m. Sa.mkili.t.thaa ca te sa.mkilesikaa caati sa.mkili.t.thasa.mkilesikaa. Sesapadadvayampi purimattike vuttanayeneva veditabba.m. Metta Sarah ===== #126239 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana dhammasaro Good friend Chandima, et al I am not sure what you want... [bummers] Perhaps, the referenced web site will help. If it does not; please, advise us... peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck http://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_results.html?cx=015061908441090246348%3Aal\ 1bklhbjbi&cof=FORID%3A9%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=intoxicants&sa=Search&siteurl=http%3\ A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.org%2F ........................................................... Rest deleted by Chuck ......................................... #126240 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > pt: I had a bit of time yesterday to revisit meditation, so yes, attachment shows up often. However, I think I believe that these moments of clarty, at their best, are moments of kusala, hence the reluctance to drop the whole thing. But I wonder what sort of kusala. Not satipatthana, it doesn's seem like it at all. Not that satipatthana cannot occur at any time, but I don't think it is the case here. So I'm pinning my hopes on moments of samatha development. The questions is then - what makes these moments kusala? I don't know. ... S: K.Sujin would say that "don't know" shows it's not kusala. ... >They seem that way, but there's no kusala consideration of the breath and other descriptors that you and Jon talked about. So it might as well be attachment, but I don't know, it doesn't seem like it either. Perhaps its just stronger concentration than usual, on top of mild attachment, or smth like that. But I'm not quite sure either way. ... S: Yes, stronger concentration with attachment can certainly seem like 'clarity'. Like when we suddenly solve a puzzle. I think there can also be a lot of attachment to such states as being good or wholesome in some way - like when a surgeon performs an operation or a pilot lands a plane. .... > pt: Ok. I think I do consider the moments I describe above as the best passtime that is available to me, but I don't think it is a springboard to satipatthana or anything like that, and in terms of the path, it is no more useful than any other dhamma/moment. ... S: If there is no understanding, there is no way for kusala and akusala to be determined even at the level of samatha, so we can't say it's a good "passtime". ... > > S: If there's any attempt to have particular kinds of dhammas arise or particular objects of awareness, it is wrong practice conditioned by atta-ditthi - not understanding the conditioned nature of what arises now. > > > pt: Yes, this is the bit that worries me. I ask myself if I am trying to have particular kinds of dhammas arise? Yes, most of the time, in or out of meditation, mostly revolving around chasing happy feeling. ... S: That's honest. If there's just attachment to happy feeling, it's very ordinary, very common. If there's the idea that someone particular dhammas can be made to arise, ditthi is likely to be involved. You wrote a very good summary to Alex on the topic, as I recall. ... >As for meditation itself, I think the development in a kusala direction (and here I mean strictly samatha development) occurs only when moments of (supposed) kusala are recognised as such, so when and as they arise. Whereas trying to make kusala arise never actually succeeds. ... S: Right - quite the reverse. ... >But then how would I know kusala from akusala (in samatha development context) in the first place and thus be able to recognise kusala moments when they occur? I don't know how either, it just seems that I can sometimes, but I don't know on what basis. ... S: Well understanding can begin to know when, for example, there's metta and when attachment. Slowly, gradually. When there's wise reflection with detachment, when it's with attachment. No use trying to 'catch' or 'pinpoint' such understanding. ... > > I wonder how would someone outside a Buddha's dispensation develop samatha (I'm talking about the level of sitting in the forest and that whole business)? There would be no teachings about right/wrong view, even kusala/akusala. So how would he be able to tell the difference between a/kusala, since this is a must for developing samatha to high degree? I mean what's the basis for distinguishing akusala from kusala if no teachings to that effect were heard, nor are there conceptual ideas of what is better or worse state/dhamma? ... S: The Bodhisatta and disciples like Sariputta and Mogallana listened to very wise teachers and attained the highest jhanas because they clearly understood kusala and akusala and the danger of attachment to sense objects. There were countless people at the time who had attained jhanas, who had heard a lot about kusala and akusala, but no understanding of these states as anatta. Metta Sarah p.s If there's any qu on any of this (or anything else) which you'd like to formulate for us to bring up with K.Sujin tomorrow, pls send it tonight or early morning. Same for anyone else. #126241 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana sarahprocter... Dear Chandima --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandimag1984" wrote: > Could anyone of you be kind to provide me the commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana (Abstinence from intoxicating drugs and drinks) ? > .... S: Here is a message I wrote: #103745 S: >Han: suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa = > suraameraya + majja + pamaada + .t.thaanaa > > suraameraya: [nt.] rum and spirits, alcoholic drinks. > majja: [nt.] an intoxicant > pamaada: carelessness, negligence, indolence, remissness, heedlessness. > .t.thaana has many meanings. Here, it means the condition or the reason for. > > The intoxicating drink that is the reason for negligence and heedlessness. S:> In an earlier message, I referred to the text in the Sammohavinodanii under "Classification of the Training Precepts (Sikkhaapadavibha"nga): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25544 Here's the (full) paragraph that I'm thinking of in particular: "1907. Suraamerayamajjapamaada.t.thaanaa (from causes for indulgence in the intoxicants of liquor and strong drink): here suraa (liquor) is of five kinds: flour (pi.t.tha) liquor, cake (puuva) liquor, boiled rice (odana) liquor, that which has yeast put in it (ki.n.na-pakkhitta) and blended (sambhaarasampayutta). Meraya ('strong drink') is the five kinds of germented brews (aasava): flower brew (pupphaasava), fruit brew (phalaasava), treacle brew (gu.laasava), honey brew (madhaasava) and blended. Both of these are majja ('intoxicants') in the sense of producing intoxication. The volition whereby they drink is the pamaada.t.thaana ('cause of negligence') because of being the reason for negligence. therefore it is 'from causes for negligence in respect of the intoxicants of liquor and strong drink' (suraameraya-majjamhi pamaada.t.thaanaa). This firstly is the meaning of the setting-out of the schedule. For many more useful reminders on the topic, see in "Useful Posts" under: 'Drinking alcohol & Drugs' For example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2784 "The first one that comes to mind is Dhammapada 247-248 (Chapter 18, [Impurities], verses 12-13): "Whosoever in this world destroys life, tells lies, takes what is not given, goes to another's wife, and is given to the use of intoxicants, such a one digs up his own roots in this world." A reference that really spells things out is in the Dhammika Sutta of the Sutta Nipata (Sn.398-399): "The layman who joyfully abides in self-control, knowing that the use of intoxicants results in loss of self-control, should not indulge in taking intoxicants, nor should he cause others to do so, nor approve of others so doing. Fools commit evil deeds as a result of intoxication, and cause others who are negligent to do the same. One should avoid this occasion for evil, this madness, this delusion, this joy of fools." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25363 Sarah: In the Minor Readings, the Ten Training Precepts,46, we read: "The fruits of abstention from the opportunity-for-negligence-due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink are such things as swift recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant establishment of mindfulness, freedom from madness, possession of knowledge, non-procrastination, non-stupidity, non-drivellingness, non-intoxication, non-negligence, non-confusion, non-timorousness, non-presumption, unenviousness, truthfulness, freedom from malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness both night and day, gratitude, gratefulness, unavariciousness, liberality, virtuousness, rectitude, unangriness, possession of conscience, possession of shame, rectitude of view, great understanding, wisdom, learnedness, skill in (distinguishing) good from harm, and so on." **** Metta Sarah ======== #126242 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:29 pm Subject: Re: anger and reaction sprlrt Hi Luraya, L: hej! L: i've got another question about anger and the reaction to it. i can accept that there is anger arising, it is conditioned and it is supposed to arise. L: but somehow i cannot accept that it is conditioned how i react to it. i think there must be a way to not react in a bad way so i don't harm the person i am angry with. by reflecting on anger i can see it and i have the choice not to react in a harmful way. and than there is the feeling of "i" can choose to react in a better way. if there is no i, how can "i" change my behaviour. it will take aeons! no khanti at all! i am confused I think that even just plain mental anger is already a (conditioned) reaction, to undesiderable visible or audible object, for example. By understanding visible object or sound, through its characteristic, which is merely that material reality which inpinges on the eye sense, in the first case, or on the ear sense, in the second, and only there and not viceversa, regardless of whether it's desiderable or not, rather than people or sounds one likes or dislikes; and by understanding seeing and hearing as just mental realities, those elements which experience an object inpinging on the eye or on ear sense, rather than I'm seeing visible object or I'm hearing the material reality called sadda; avijja, dosa and lobha decrease, naturally. And only pa~n~naa, by conditions, can understand realities as they are, when they are, i.e. before/instead of thinking about concepts such as me, other people and so. Alberto #126243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Gym nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-aug-2012, om 18:17 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > One of the ways that shows anatta is when one has free time, to sit > to meditate and try not to move, not to think anything, not to > imagine for 5 or more minutes (try an hour). > > Interesting thing to observe is that no matter how much orders you > gave, the body can fidget, and the mind drown in fantasies or > thoughts about unimportant things... ------ N: Well said. But is helps to realize that when thinking unimportant things, thinking is just a dhamma, a conditioned naama. It does not belong to a self. ----- Nina. #126244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] object of studying nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 27-aug-2012, om 18:39 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > in one discourse ajahn sujin said: "whateverappears should be > object of studying and understanding it better and better." > ----- > > if i put it to a situation in daily life, what does it mean > practically? > how to study in the moment of attachment to food arising for example? > > there is always this strong liking to a taste and attachment arises. > in that moment there is no awareness. > there is only thinking left in this moment, thinking about the > realities. but how to cling less in that moment? to not give in for > the attachment? > > i don't understand!! ------ N: Attachment to sense objects cannot be eradicated before one has attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the anaagaami. Don't try, but understand it as a conditioned dhamma. First we have to learn to see whatever arises as non-self, the wrong view of self has to be eradicated first. At the moment of attachment there is no sati as you say, but when it has just fallen away it can be object of sati and pa~n~naa. This is difficult, because first naama has to be understood as naama and ruupa as ruupa, they are different realities. Yes, there is mostly thinking about realities, and this should not worry us. This is the stage of pariyatti. We can learn to think in the correct way about the present reality. We should not mind at all whatever appears; attachment, thinking, akusala, kusala, we can learn that all of them are conditioned dhammas. No selection, otherwise we do not let realities appear because of their own conditions; we are trying to interfere. Whatever appears is just dhamma, this should be enough. ------ Nina. #126245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anger and reaction nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 27-aug-2012, om 19:56 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > i can accept that there is anger arising, it is conditioned and it > is supposed to arise. > > but somehow i cannot accept that it is conditioned how i react to > it. i think there must be a way to not react in a bad way so i > don't harm the person i am angry with. by reflecting on anger i can > see it and i have the choice not to react in a harmful way. and > than there is the feeling of "i" can choose to react in a better > way. if there is no i, how can "i" change my behaviour. > it will take aeons! no khanti at all! -------- N: We can see the disadvantages of anger and the benefit of kusala, but even seeing this is conditioned, non-self. It is pa~n~naa above all that sees the disadvantages of anger and the benefit of kusala. The Buddha praised the Brahma vihaaras. But akusala can only be eradicated by pa~n~naa developed to the stage of magga-pan~n~naa. Tat is a long way. As Phil said, no shortcut. No I who changes behaviour, but pa~n~naa can. Not as soon as we wish. We should develop understanding of seeing now, visible object now, of all realities. Also, all perfections, kusala through body, speech and mind should be developed along with satipa.t.thaana. Mettaa is one of those perfections. Khanti, patience, is a perfection. When we say: it takes aeons, we are actually praising the Buddha Acharn said. He developed wisdom and all the perfections for aeons and aeons. ------ Nina. #126246 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/28/2012 1:39:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: It would be interesting to see how such arrangements of mental and physical phenomena become organized in such a way as to create the impression of separate individual beings. ============================= A complex matter even for professional psychologists, I would presume. From the Buddhist perspective, I say it is atta-frabrication. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126247 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Robert) - In a message dated 8/28/2012 4:20:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (& Rob E), --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: . Kamma not strong enough to manifest in such action is, obviously, weaker > than kamma which does manifest in such action, and the weaker kamma will > produce weaker vipaka. ... S: As I understand the texts, the weaker kamma, like a thought of annoyance now, but not strong enough to lead to any abuse, just accumulates. So dosa accumulates, all unwholesome factors accumulate, but only when they've accumulated to a degree that there is the speech or action, will results follow. Metta Sarah ================================= Makes sense, Sarah. Many weak instances of kamma "equaling" a strong instance. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126248 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:43 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. dhammasaro Good friends all, If I may... Does anyone know a person which is both a practicing Buddhist and psychologist/psychiatrist? If so, would he/she come aboard and discuss this subject? Unfortunately, I do not know any... [bummer] peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck #126249 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana jagkrit2012 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chandima > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "chandimag1984" wrote: > > > Could anyone of you be kind to provide me the commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana (Abstinence from intoxicating drugs and drinks) ? > > > .... > S: Here is a message I wrote: > .................... >..................... > For many more useful reminders on the topic, see in "Useful Posts" under: > 'Drinking alcohol & Drugs' > > For example: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/2784 > > > A reference that really spells things out is in the Dhammika Sutta > of the Sutta Nipata (Sn.398-399): > > "The layman who joyfully abides in self-control, knowing that the > use of intoxicants results in loss of self-control, should not > indulge in taking intoxicants, nor should he cause others to do so, > nor approve of others so doing. > Fools commit evil deeds as a result > of intoxication, and cause others who are negligent to do the same. > One should avoid this occasion for evil, this madness, this delusion, > this joy of fools." > ======== >JJ: Thank you Sarah very much for in-depth explanation and citing. According to above Sutta, can we say that this 5th percept is outstanding to be aware for person in general than other 4s. Thank you and Anumothana Jagkrit #126250 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: monkhood. was:Problems in life. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Regarding the Ken H school of sutta intrepetation: --- <. . .> > S:Yes, let's move on to some of those sutta interpretations. As you always say, have to come back to the present realities. "Just like now!" --- KH: (Hoping I fixed your typo correctly) Those interpretations begin with anatta. Therefore, looking at the sutta about the blind monk and the caterpillars we firstly remember there were no monks in this story, blind or otherwise, nor were there any caterpillars. No one trod on anything. With that beginners understanding we can't go far wrong. We just try to see how the story could possibly apply to the world of paramattha dhammas. There are no wrong answers; everyone gets a pass. :-) ------------ <. . .> > S: Only about paramattha dhammas, but just depends on the reader/listener as to whether this is understood. ------------ KH: Yes, as reader/listeners we must always be aware there are *only* paramattha dhammas. If we are not careful we will fall into the trap of thinking (albeit subconsciously) that there are two worlds parramattha and pannatti. There is only the paramattha. ----------------------- <. . .> > S: Her reply: "What do they mean by 'method'? And: 'If we don't fix a time, how can we have a discussion?':-)) ----------------------- KH: As I understand her question it is: given there are no people and no things to do, in what way can there be a method? One answer off the top of my head is: any reality that has arisen now, in the present moment, has done so dependent on conditions (without control). Just as, in the world of concepts, a meeting depends the method of setting a time etc., so too a conditioned dhamma arises by method of other conditioned dhammas. Maybe not exactly a `method' (maybe not exactly answering the question) but, in my school, close enough! :-) Ken H #126251 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > In Expositor pg 132 and 133 > > > <....>Harsh speech is proportionate to the virtue of one concerning whom harsh words are spoken. The three constituent factors of this offence are: Another to be abused, angry thought, and the abuse>> > > > > > > S: "...and the abuse." > > > >R: So the physical act -- act of speech or physical abusive action -- must be completed as well for the kamma patha to take place. > > > > I am probably a little slow, but the question that keeps confusing me is: what is the status of the "abuse," the physical act in the world of dhammas, since rupas don't cause kamma, and yet are necessary for kamma patha to take place... > ... > S: Not 'slow' at all - I like the way you keep questioning all these difficult issues. > > As you say, rupas don't cause kamma. It is the cittas that arises with the akusala cetana (kamma) and associated factors which conditions, in this case, the speech intimation (a rupa)... I think I am starting to understand about intimation being a rupa, though it seems at first it should be a mental factor. I have looked up intimation both in its dictionary meaning and in context of Chapter 6 of "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena" which I found online, and goes into some detail. http://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book/the-buddhist-teaching-on-physical-phenome\ na/d/doc2660.html It seems that intimation is the subtle physical indication of the intention or volition "to communicate or do" that is carried by the rupas that are visible or tactile, etc.; and that the intimation is not itself visible as intimation, but must be discerned in the mind door. So if it is discerned by mind and is not visible, what kind of rupa is it? I would have thought it was a mental factor. > ...along with other rupas conditioned by those cittas make up what we call 'speech'. So speech = the intimation rupa + the other rupas conditioned by the cittas involved. > So it is akusala kamma carried out by way of the speech door. So here, if akusala kamma is "carried out" through the speech door, what is the significance for the kamma of being "carried out." It seems again that the being physically "carried out" via the rupas involved is a question of physical expression rather than the cetana that conditioned those rupas; therefore the physical expression itself should not change the kamma. However it is not complete without such physical expression. Still confused... > By the speech door, it is this speech intimation, the physical indicator of the intended meaning, that is meant. Ah, this sounds like a very special rupa. It is not directly discernible, but carries or indicates the meaning of the cetana that is carried by the speech rupas, and yet is itself discernible in the mind door of the recipient of the speech. > This is the 'completed' kamma patha only when the 3 factors above are involved. It must also be intended to communicate that speech meaning/intimation to the 'being' on the other end of the communication. So I guess that the concept of the 'being' is involved in completed kamma patha as well, a concept. So we have the cetana/kamma conditioning citta, the intimation or meaning that is conditioned by citta, and the speech rupas that carry that intimation and complete the expression of the cetana to the "other being" involved. I see what you mean about it being complex! If only the cetana is kamma, the best explanation I can surmise so far of the kamma patha is that the speech intimation is a reflection of the strength of the cetana, and that the 'being' involved is also an indicator of the strength of the cetana. In other words, there is the cetana to speak, the cetana to communicate the speech through speech intimation, and the cetana to communicate that speech to the [concept of] the other being through the rupas that reach the other being. If that is correct, then the strength of the kamma would be determined by the original mental cetana, the speech intimation cetana, and the cetana to communicate to another being - all cetana, but each carrying its own kamma. So it wouldn't be the physicality per se that caused the increased kamma in the kamma patha, but rather the various types of cetana that are represented by each aspect of the kamma patha. Likewise, in completing a murder, there must not only be a desire to kill, but a desire to carry out the killing, and I guess a desire to experience the rupas of the killing towards that other being, so the three aspects of cetana would add up to that kamma patha, rather than the physical act itself. There is obviously a difference between wanting to imagine killing someone [purely a mental factor,] wanting to express the desire to kill [a desire to experience physical speech with speech intimation involved,] and wanting to carry out the killing and experience the physical rupas of killing [a desire to realize the original cetana through the production of those rupas.] It could make sense that each was a higher degree of kamma, but that it was the intention to further create each stage of the act that would really complete the kamma patha, the physical act being a by-product of that degree of cetana. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #126252 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/28/2012 1:39:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > It would be interesting to see how such arrangements of mental and > physical phenomena become organized in such a way as to create the impression of > separate individual beings. > ============================= > A complex matter even for professional psychologists, I would presume. > From the Buddhist perspective, I say it is atta-fabrication. It is so easy to assume that there is atta wherever volitional action takes place. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #126253 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:54 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (9) "The world evolves in accordance with variegated cittas." philofillet Dear Group Pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "The world evolves in accordance with the variegated nature of the cittas of different people. The world is constituted by different people living in different countries and participating in different groups and these different individuals condition the events in the world. This occurs because of the variety of the thinking of each individual. The world of today evolves in this particular way according to the variegated nature of the cittas of people at this time. How will the world be in the future? It will bea again just according to the variegated nature of the cittas that think of many differnt subjects." (end of passage) Ph: As a topic for conceptual proliferation, I sometimes think about the way the world is evolving, the way Japan is evolving. But from a Dhamma point of view I have trouble understanding "the world of today evolves in this particular way according to the variegated nature of the cittas of people at this time" as though a physical world is being made together by the cittas of various beings. It sounds too much in line with common sense, and the Dhamma runs deeper than common sense. But that's fine, I don't believing in straining at difficult topics. I think the Buddha talked about 4 different meanings of lokiya (?) of world... Phil #126254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 26-aug-2012, om 0:47 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > I can think with attachment of cold as a conditioned ruupa, that I > don't know yet but may someday. Or there can be a moment of > understanding with detachment that panna can know cold as a > conditioned ruupa, understanding without the subtle clinging to "I > will get it someday" or "I wanna get that understanding" that is so > prevalent. ------- N: You emphasize that there is always lobha around the corner. That is common. Pa~n~naa can find out when the citta is considering Dhamma with detachment, and when there is thinking with attachment. ----- Nina. #126255 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina > N: You emphasize that there is always lobha around the corner. That > is common. Pa~n~naa can find out when the citta is considering Dhamma > with detachment, and when there is thinking with attachment. Right, no doubt about that. Panna can develop. I emphasize lobha a lot but I do have confidence in panna developing, with detachment, no shortcuts, no magic manual of training techniques. Phil #126256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: What I heard. The sea of concepts, no 1. nilovg Dear Phil, Op 29-aug-2012, om 12:39 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Right, no doubt about that. Panna can develop. I emphasize lobha a > lot but I do have confidence in panna developing, with detachment, > no shortcuts, no magic manual of training techniques. ------ N: Right you are! ---- Nina. #126257 From: "mombettyyugala" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:14 am Subject: conditions for understanding to arise mombettyyugala Dear John and Sarah, Nina and other Dhamma friends, What a wonderful discussion we had today with Than Achaan at Bang Sai. A whole host of conditions led to this discussion and it is you I must thank for that. In addition, there have been conditions "brewing" that have led "me" to join DSG again after a long hiatus. As part of the discussion today, Than Achaan(TA)referred to my query concerning the conditions that must come up for understanding to arise. Formerly, TA would always answer that question by saying that one must listen to the Dhamma, contemplate on it and that would act as conditions for understanding (panna--how do we put in the Pali markings?) to arise. But today, her answer to that question was far more clear and precise and Sarah restated it so very beautifully. Sarah, would you restate it again for the benefit of all of us in DSG, in answer to this post? It would be so much appreciated. metta, Betty PS: Have a safe and productive trip. #126258 From: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:24 am Subject: Hello, intro mombettyyugala Dear Dhamma Friends, After having been absent from DSG for quite a while, conditions have caused "me" to return and I look forward to fruitful Dhamma discussions with you all. I have been a student of Achaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket for 12 years and am both awed and grateful for her wonderful guidance along the Path of Understanding the Dhamma. I live in Bangkok, am married with 3 children and 3 grandchildren. My youngest, a son, is a Buddhist monk at Wat Bavornived here, and am retired after 33 years of teaching at International School Bangkok I spend my time working with a number of women's organizations. However, conditions are slowly moving "me" away from these organizations, though they are worthwhile, because I wish to spend more time discussing and reading Dhamma. Many of you already know me, including the moderators, Sarah and Jonothan, but I hope to get to know many more of you through DSG. with metta, Betty -- *Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala* *38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road,* *Chatuchak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand* *mombetty@...; mombetty@...* *mobile: +6681-826-7160 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +6681-826-7160 end_of_the_skype_highlighting* #126259 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:53 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro jagkrit2012 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > After having been absent from DSG for quite a while, conditions have caused > "me" to return and I look forward to fruitful Dhamma discussions with you > all. I have been a student of Achaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket for 12 years and > am both awed and grateful for her wonderful guidance along the Path of > Understanding the Dhamma. I live in Bangkok, am married with 3 children and > 3 grandchildren. My youngest, a son, is a Buddhist monk at Wat Bavornived > here, and am retired after 33 years of teaching at International School > Bangkok I spend my time working with a number of women's organizations. > However, conditions are slowly moving "me" away from these organizations, > though they are worthwhile, because I wish to spend more time discussing > and reading Dhamma. Many of you already know me, including the moderators, > Sarah and Jonothan, but I hope to get to know many more of you through DSG. > with metta, > Betty > > > -- > Hello Than Mom Betty and also DSG friends I' am happy to get to know you. I've joined English Dhamma discussion at the foundation once while you were there. But I haven't have a chance to know you personally. I am also very new to this DSG (Applied as member 2 or 3 days). Normally, I study Dhamma from Than Ajan Sujin via MP3 and CD and join Thai dicussion group at foundation every weekend. However, according to the shcedule to Poland of Than Ajan Sujin next month where I will join her with other Thai friends in this trip. I, therefore, have to get familiar with English Dhamma Discussion due to my English is not that stong and Dhamma is so deep to understand. Especially, when Than Ajan always emphasize that knowing the words for experiencing the reality at the moment. That, therefore, led me to join DSG and as well as get to know some friends who will be in Poland next month. It is so nice that you join DSG and I have a new friend as well. After go through previous discussion and audio files, I've learn a lot of important dhamma messages that led to more understanding. Thank you and Anumothana to khun Sarah and Jonathan who invest a lot of Kusala effort (Viriya) to provide right understanding of Dhamma via this media. In my opinion, it is so worth to use the media with kusala especially to develop Panna right understanding. And there are Thai and Chinese websites to deliver Dhamma study and there is a lot of discussion going on. Very useful Hoping you come along the board and barly leave Dhamma study in DSG. For me, I, now, on the stage of developing Chanda (wishing or interesting) to learn Dhamma in English toward right understanding of reality as well. Anumothana Jagkrit (JJ) #126260 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:21 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro sarahprocter... Dear Betty & Jagkrit, Betty, so delighted to see you writing on the list again and thank you for kindly re-introducing yourself and also for all your kind words. It was lovely to spend the day with you and other friends out of Bangkok yesterday. Let me try to write something more when I have a little more time. (We're now at Bangkok airport). Jagrit, also delighted to welcome you to DSG and thanks so much for introducing yourself. Again, I look forward to more exchange when I'm settled back in Hong Kong. Hardly settled, actually, as Jonothan and I leave on Monday night for Helsinki where we have a few days with my mother (joining us from England), before taking the flight to Poland. It's really great to hear that you'll be there with us. Lukas and other friends will be so glad to 'meet' you here in advance too. As you say so well, Ajahn Sujin always stresses that knowing the words and reading the texts is not the same as understanding the reality now. Visible object appearing and then so much thinking about people and things. I look forward to more of your good reminders. In English she uses an expression 'delirious thinking' for when it's useless speculation rather than understanding the reality now. Yesterday when I started a discussion asking about some details on kamma and kamma patha, she said it was all 'delirious thinking' because we just get absorbed in these ideas and details and forget all about what is appearing now at this very moment - seeing, visible object, thinking and lots of lobha and moha! Oops! Need to go for the flight! metta Sarah p.s If you see Khun Metta at the Foundation on Sat, pls tell her you have written on DSG as she was asking about it. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > I' am happy to get to know you. I've joined English Dhamma discussion at the foundation once while you were there. But I haven't have a chance to know you personally. I am also very new to this DSG (Applied as member 2 or 3 days). Normally, I study Dhamma from Than Ajan Sujin via MP3 and CD and join Thai dicussion group at foundation every weekend. However, according to the shcedule to Poland of Than Ajan Sujin next month where I will join her with other Thai friends in this trip. I, therefore, have to get familiar with English Dhamma Discussion due to my English is not that stong and Dhamma is so deep to understand. Especially, when Than Ajan always emphasize that knowing the words for experiencing the reality at the moment. That, therefore, led me to join DSG and as well as get to know some friends who will be in Poland next month. ======= #126261 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Howard, Ken O., and Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Robert) - > > In a message dated 8/27/2012 3:52:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@... writes: > > Dear Rob E and Howard > > The strength of kamma does not depends solely on the kamma alone. It also > involved the objects that the kamma is act on. The objects which kamma > act on like killing a parent is more blamable than compare to a normal human > being. In other cases, it depends on the qualities of the obejct, like > killing a layperson who holds the five precept is more blamable than one who > kills a criminal. > > Also it does not mean that just because it is kamma patha, it is a > stronger kamma. So far, I have yet read in the commentary or text to say there is > such a comparision. For eg, there are restlessness and mana, and that > could only be eradicated in Arahant, could we say just because they are not > kamma patha, they are not strong when they arise with kamma as mental > commitant. These two cetasikas are conditions for kamma formations in the next > life. > > IMHO, kamma patha which bring result for it to happen, it has to be meet > the conditions for it to consider a kamma patha, if not, it could be > considered as kamma. That is the difference between them which I know of. > > KC > ============================== > When I say that kamma strong enough to be expressed in action creates > stronger vipaka than kamma not so strong, I mean to compare acts of > intention that intend the very same sort of action, comparing apples with apples, > and not apples with oranges. I am wondering what is the difference in result between kamma that is not realized in action, and kamma that reaches the level of kamma patha. Ken O. I think is suggesting that kamma that is not kamma patha will not yield a result in vipaka, but instead will be carried [as tendency?] into the next lifetime. Sarah I think said recently that kamma must reach the level of kamma patha to yield its result, but that kamma that does not reach that level will continue to accumulate until it reaches that level. I guess an analogy to this would be a person who harbors anger towards someone but does not hit them. He fumes and builds up the anger but doesn't express it. The other person doesn't notice it, let's say, and doesn't react to it. But the anger continues to build up. One day the anger builds up to the point where the person yells an insult to the other person, or hits him. The other person then reacts negatively and the first person also suffers from his own remorse over the attack. In the first phase it is like just mental kamma which builds up and bothers the person but doesn't bother anyone else and doesn't come back to him in an additional experience of suffering. In the second phase the kamma patha causes reactions in the physical world and with another person which causes new things to happen to him interactively and also causes the arising of new akusala cittas that cause further suffering. This might give a simple idea of the difference between mental kamma that is accumulated and is not expressed in action, and kamma patha that is expressed in action and causes a definite result. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126262 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:29 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > And this for Rob E, perhaps it can help to understand that there is > only one citta at a time: > > is seeing now, or the experience of one of the other sense > objects now, or thinking now, when will one ever be able to > understand the characteristic of citta? > Citta thinks of many different things, citta is always > travelling. Citta is travelling when there is seeing through the > eyes, hearing through the ears, smelling through the nose, > tasting through the tongue, the experience of tangible object > through the bodysense and experiencing an object through > the mind-door. > > > N: When there is seeing there cannot be hearing at the same time. > Long ago (when I first came to her, I had the same question) Acharn > asked me to consider; can you think of two things at the same time? I think in terms of thinking, this is slightly easier to understand. It is a little harder to understand that there is only one sense in operation at a given moment. So many experiences are made up of combinations of seeing and hearing, or seeing a combination of things, or remembering a sound already heard while hearing the next one. The idea that one experience is completely dropped before the next one arises in consciousness does not seem to account for these combination experiences, including the construction of a complete sentence that makes sense from a number of separate moments. I wonder when it is said above that citta keeps traveling, if that means that citta is accumulating the various moments that make up a complete experience, I would be interested in hearing more about that. For instance, if citta travels from visual object to the mental experience that registers the object, then to a sound object, and then somehow puts those experiences together with sanna to make sense in the mind door, if that is what is meant by 'traveling.' Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126263 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:34 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Commentary (Spk): > > << << << << > The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: > The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch: > - Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. > - When the monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises holding to an object of a single kind. > >> >> >> >> > > So, one citta at a time, experiencing one object at a time. Thanks, Jon. That is a good simile to contemplate. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126264 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention" epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >> S: Just depending on accumulations. Again, only cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising by conditions - in reality, no military, no sotapanna, no killing! > > > >R: I am still having a hard time understanding how this contention squares with the requirements for kamma patha - intention to harm, a being to harm, and the act of actually harming that being. How does that fit in with the above? > .... > S: A sotapanna won't have any intention to kill or harm even if he's in the military. No dosa conditioned by wrong view of other beings to condition such intentions. As to whether he'd still work in the military, help the wounded or anything else - it will all depend on accumulations. Just thinking in terms of such situations won't help us to understand the presently arising dhammas now. > > For example, now there is seeing which sees visible object, thinking a lot about what is seen because of vitakka and other mental factors. There's no intention to harm or kill now. So, it's just the same, wherever we are - just vipaka cittas followed by kusala or akusala cittas depending on conditions and accumulations. In truth, no person, no sotapanna, no opposing army. I am still wondering though about the 'act' and the 'being' in kamma-patha. If there is no action and no being, how does the kamma-patha take place? Both kusala and akusala kamma-patha are dependent on both an action taking place, and an intention towards a being. So even for the sotapanna, if he creates kusala kamma-patha, he must do something and have the thought of a being in mind. Is that not so? And if that is so, what happens to the idea that he sees that there really are no beings? Does he see that there are no beings and yet intend an action towards the being at the same time? What if he intends kindness or metta towards a being, does he think at the same time 'there is no being' and yet continue to intend it? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 30-aug-2012, om 8:29 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I think in terms of thinking, this is slightly easier to > understand. It is a little harder to understand that there is only > one sense in operation at a given moment. ------ N:Visible object or colour impinges on the eyesense and then there is a condition for seeing, not for hearing. It seems that there is seeing and hearing at the same time, and this is because cittas arise and fall away very rapidly. ------- > R: So many experiences are made up of combinations of seeing and > hearing, or seeing a combination of things, or remembering a sound > already heard while hearing the next one. The idea that one > experience is completely dropped before the next one arises in > consciousness does not seem to account for these combination > experiences, including the construction of a complete sentence that > makes sense from a number of separate moments. -------- N: Through the mind-door there is thinking of the different sense objects and indeed, sa~n~naa that accompanies every citta remembers and recognizes an object experienced before. Visible object experienced through the eye-door is, after there have been some bhavanga-cittas, experienced through the mind-door and later on there are different mind-door processes experiencing a concept on account of what was seen. Each citta falls away completely, but sa~n~naa performs its function of marking the object and recognizing it. One may think of a concept of a whole, such as a person, it seems that we can "see" a person, but that is a delusion. A person does not impinge on the eyesense. There could not be remembrance of a complete sentence if different sounds were not heard or colours were not seen in the case of reading. In case of deafness or blindness this is impossible. --------- > > R:I wonder when it is said above that citta keeps traveling, if > that means that citta is accumulating the various moments that make > up a complete experience, I would be interested in hearing more > about that. For instance, if citta travels from visual object to > the mental experience that registers the object, then to a sound > object, and then somehow puts those experiences together with sanna > to make sense in the mind door, if that is what is meant by > 'traveling.' ------- N: It just means that different cittas experience each one object. So many objects present themselves in a day and these could not appear if citta would not experience them. Everything will be clearer if we learn little by little that, while there is seeing now, seeing only experiences what appears through the eyesense. While there is hearing now, hearing only experiences what can be heard. If the present object is not "studied" there will only be "delirious thinking" ;-)) Nina. #126266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:23 pm Subject: The sea of concepts (no 2). nilovg Dear friends, The sea of concepts (no 2). Acharn: --------- Nina. #126267 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah Thank you very much for your warm welcome to DSG. It really is kusala vipaka to have an opportunity to meet dhamma friends and learn the most important things about reality even it is only this life time which is not long. The sutta says one of the most auspicious things is orienting with layperson. It is therefore an honor and kusula vipaka of me. I do hope to learn more from you and friends in DSG. Anumothana Jagkrit Ps. I will see Khun Metta this Saturday. Thank you very much __________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Betty & Jagkrit, > > Betty, so delighted to see you writing on the list again and thank you for kindly re-introducing yourself and also for all your kind words. It was lovely to spend the day with you and other friends out of Bangkok yesterday. Let me try to write something more when I have a little more time. (We're now at Bangkok airport). > > Jagrit, also delighted to welcome you to DSG and thanks so much for introducing yourself. Again, I look forward to more exchange when I'm settled back in Hong Kong. Hardly settled, actually, as Jonothan and I leave on Monday night for Helsinki where we have a few days with my mother (joining us from England), before taking the flight to Poland. > > It's really great to hear that you'll be there with us. Lukas and other friends will be so glad to 'meet' you here in advance too. > > As you say so well, Ajahn Sujin always stresses that knowing the words and reading the texts is not the same as understanding the reality now. Visible object appearing and then so much thinking about people and things. I look forward to more of your good reminders. > > In English she uses an expression 'delirious thinking' for when it's useless speculation rather than understanding the reality now. Yesterday when I started a discussion asking about some details on kamma and kamma patha, she said it was all 'delirious thinking' because we just get absorbed in these ideas and details and forget all about what is appearing now at this very moment - seeing, visible object, thinking and lots of lobha and moha! > > Oops! Need to go for the flight! > > metta > > Sarah > p.s If you see Khun Metta at the Foundation on Sat, pls tell her you have written on DSG as she was asking about it. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > > I' am happy to get to know you. I've joined English Dhamma discussion at the foundation once while you were there. But I haven't have a chance to know you personally. I am also very new to this DSG (Applied as member 2 or 3 days). Normally, I study Dhamma from Than Ajan Sujin via MP3 and CD and join Thai dicussion group at foundation every weekend. However, according to the shcedule to Poland of Than Ajan Sujin next month where I will join her with other Thai friends in this trip. I, therefore, have to get familiar with English Dhamma Discussion due to my English is not that stong and Dhamma is so deep to understand. Especially, when Than Ajan always emphasize that knowing the words for experiencing the reality at the moment. That, therefore, led me to join DSG and as well as get to know some friends who will be in Poland next month. > ======= > #126268 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/30/2012 2:20:21 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: I guess an analogy to this would be a person who harbors anger towards someone but does not hit them. He fumes and builds up the anger but doesn't express it. The other person doesn't notice it, let's say, and doesn't react to it. But the anger continues to build up. One day the anger builds up to the point where the person yells an insult to the other person, or hits him. The other person then reacts negatively and the first person also suffers from his own remorse over the attack. In the first phase it is like just mental kamma which builds up and bothers the person but doesn't bother anyone else and doesn't come back to him in an additional experience of suffering. In the second phase the kamma patha causes reactions in the physical world and with another person which causes new things to happen to him interactively and also causes the arising of new akusala cittas that cause further suffering. This might give a simple idea of the difference between mental kamma tha t is accumulated and is not expressed in action, and kamma patha that is expressed in action and causes a definite result. =========================== Sarah wrote along these lines. It seems, I believe, that kamma of some sort is a condition for stronger kamma of that sort, a. k. a. "accumulation." and a continued chain of this sort can lead to kamma strong enough to lead to action, i.e., to kammapatha and to vipaka. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126269 From: "mombettyyugala" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:24 pm Subject: Hello, Intro mombettyyugala Hello, Jagrit, So glad you've joined us for the English discussions as well and hope that you will come more often. Am so glad that you will be going to Poland too.I hope that will be a safe and fruitful trip. Lots of lobha in Prague, however, (I understand you'll be going to the Czech Republic after Poland) because it is really a beautiful city, especially in summer. Watch the lobha arising there (wonderful free concerts in every church during the summer and maybe even now). Do reintroduce yourself to me when you return. metta, Betty #126270 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:42 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro philofillet Hello Betty! Nice to see you here, I only met you once, briefly, at Au Bon Pain in Bankok where I think I floored a very crude topic, I was obsessed with not going to the prostitutes during that trip. My favourite Betty moment in the recorded talks is from India, where you talked so colourfully about all the dosa you were having, and how it almost became overwhelming but Sarah talked to you and everything became easier. It sounded like a great example of Dhamma friendship. I wonder if you remember that, and if you can remember what she told you. Welcome to you too, Jangrit. (Hope I got your name right.) Phil #126271 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:21 am Subject: Re: Hello, Intro jagkrit2012 Hello Than Mom Betty Thank you very much for your kind invitation to English discussion group. I do wish that I will join this Saturday discussion. The English discussion is totally different from Thai discussion which is held in the big conference room with hundred of people. There is more opportunity to raise dhamma question to Than Ajahn Sujin and the group to discuss and explain broadly than in Thai discussion. I do hope to learn more dhamma in the English version as well. You mention about Prague. Unfortunately, I, my wife, my daughter and some friends end our trip in Poland. I've never been in Prague before besides watching its beauty in TV. The Prague scenery even in pictures is so appealing which become perfect visible object for Kilesa like loabha to arise as you say. Being there experience Prague all in 4 or 5 senses shall definitely be strong condition of objects to loabha with happiness to arise. My lobha would grow and accumulate if I were there for sure. However, I have to come back to Bangkok and stay with my lobha (very close friend) here instead. I'm looking to seeing you at the foundation after the trip. It is very nice to exchange conversation with you. Thank you very much Anumothana for your kusala Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mombettyyugala" wrote: > > Hello, Jagrit, > So glad you've joined us for the English discussions as well and hope that you will come more often. Am so glad that you will be going to Poland too.I hope that will be a safe and fruitful trip. Lots of lobha in Prague, however, (I understand you'll be going to the Czech Republic after Poland) because it is really a beautiful city, especially in summer. Watch the lobha arising there (wonderful free concerts in every church during the summer and maybe even now). Do reintroduce yourself to me when you return. > metta, > Betty > #126272 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:28 am Subject: Re: Hello, intro jagkrit2012 Hello Phil Thank you very much for your warm welcome to the group. I do hope to have a chance to discuss dhamma with you in the future. Anumothana Jagkrit Ps. Sorry that Thai name sometime looks unfamiliar in English. But you got almost right on my name. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hello Betty! > > Nice to see you here, I only met you once, briefly, at Au Bon Pain in Bankok where I think I floored a very crude topic, I was obsessed with not going to the prostitutes during that trip. > > My favourite Betty moment in the recorded talks is from India, where you talked so colourfully about all the dosa you were having, and how it almost became overwhelming but Sarah talked to you and everything became easier. It sounded like a great example of Dhamma friendship. I wonder if you remember that, and if you can remember what she told you. > > Welcome to you too, Jangrit. (Hope I got your name right.) > > Phil > #126273 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:59 am Subject: Re: Hello, intro glenjohnann Hi Betty Welcome! Very good to see you here. I find this discussion site really helpful - and follow it regularly. I am more inclined to follow the posts than to post myself, although there are times when I post too. You can assume that I am lurking in the background most of the time! I thought I was going to see you in Poland, however, after reading a few of the posts with Jagkrit, I am wondering now if you will be in Bangkok during that time instead. Looking forward to "seeing" you here. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > After having been absent from DSG for quite a while, conditions have caused > "me" to return and I look forward to fruitful Dhamma discussions with you > all. I have been a student of Achaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket for 12 years and > am both awed and grateful for her wonderful guidance along the Path of > Understanding the Dhamma. I live in Bangkok, am married with 3 children and > 3 grandchildren. My youngest, a son, is a Buddhist monk at Wat Bavornived > here, and am retired after 33 years of teaching at International School > Bangkok I spend my time working with a number of women's organizations. > However, conditions are slowly moving "me" away from these organizations, > though they are worthwhile, because I wish to spend more time discussing > and reading Dhamma. Many of you already know me, including the moderators, > Sarah and Jonothan, but I hope to get to know many more of you through DSG. > with metta, > Betty > > > -- > *Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala* > *38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road,* > *Chatuchak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand* > *mombetty@...; mombetty@...* > *mobile: +6681-826-7160 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting > +6681-826-7160 end_of_the_skype_highlighting* > > > > #126274 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:30 am Subject: How certain things "actually work" (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Rob E: Well I guess that would depend on whether the rising and falling of the dhamma [representing anicca,] is necessary to understand in order to clearly understand the three marks. If one can discern rising and falling, but not understand how conditions are created by the falling dhamma to condition the arising of the next, it seems like a blank in understanding of both rising of dhammas and conditionality to me. > > =============== > > J: There are 2 separate matters here: the characteristics of dhammas and the manner in which conditionality perpetuates life in samsara. > > The former are the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, while the latter is found in the teaching on Dependent Origination ("DO"). > > For both, the understanding involved develops with the development of awareness of dhammas. > > > =============== > > Rob E: That would be fine and not a cause for concern if the accumulations of dhamma A were not being so neatly transmitted to the next dhamma B. If one is to understand conditionality on the dhamma level, this idea of all the old accumulations coming out of nowhere to reinhabit dhamma B is pretty weird. A magical recreation of that which has fallen away, or what? > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "If one is to understand conditionality on the dhamma level, this idea of all the old accumulations coming out of nowhere to reinhabit dhamma B is pretty weird", then do you also have difficulty with the idea of today's vipaka cittas possibly being the result of kamma committed in previous lifetimes, as that could also be described as "pretty weird" :-)) Well I guess I don't have an exact understanding of how that takes place, but I do have a sense of it. There is a sense of the action that has been put into place continuing to influence dhammas until it surfaces in a future life. But when it is stated in a blanket way that the accumulations are passed on to the next dhamma after the previous one has fallen away, it seems more contradictory. But you're right, the arising of vipaka is not exactly described either. > > =============== > ...For an understanding of the mechanism by which samsara continues and conditionality takes place over the long sweep of samsara one needs to understand DO, which involves the operation of multiple different conditions for each link and different periods of time. Vastly more complex than the operation of the single kind of condition we've been discussing. Well maybe a good place to start is how the falling away of one dhamma conditions the arising of the next, and does so with all the accumulations of the former one. I mean, there's got to be at least a basic explanation - the idiot's version, for me - of how that most basic fact of conditioning of dhammas takes place. That's what I'm looking for... Dhammas are not naked, they are not born as a blank slate. Somehow they are conditioned to arise with a full-blown history and set of tendencies and accumulations, with cetasikas predetermined by the succession of dhammas that came before them. To say we want to understand dhammas but to somehow not account for their basic composition with all these ingredients seems again to be a strange sort of abstraction from their true condition at best. > > =============== > > Rob E: The Buddha gives quite a bit of importance to what causes ignorance and suffering to be perpetuated. The way in which accumulations are conditioned to reconstitute in an endless series of dhammas seems to me central to this understanding. > > =============== > > J: Think about it for a moment. If accumulated tendencies are not passed on, then each citta moment would be a `blank sheet' in terms of habituation. Funny, that's what I just said above! But in my case I thus want to account at least in some general way for how that takes place. > But in any event, to my thinking it's sufficient to know whether or not accumulations are passed on, without having to know the exact mechanism involved. Do you for example know the mechanism by which kamma performed in a past life conditions vipaka in this life? I don't want to know the exact mechanism. I just want a sketch, something that fills the blank so that I understand the basic operation. I don't want my garage mechanic to tell me about the exact activity of spark plugs and how they work with the fuel-injector to start the car, but I do want to have a basic idea that there is something there that makes it happen, and I have a sense of how it works. At least I know that there's a motor and a transmission and that fuel makes it go. It's not completely opaque. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126275 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 30-aug-2012, om 8:29 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > > > I think in terms of thinking, this is slightly easier to > > understand. It is a little harder to understand that there is only > > one sense in operation at a given moment. > ------ > N:Visible object or colour impinges on the eyesense and then there is > a condition for seeing, not for hearing. It seems that there is > seeing and hearing at the same time, and this is because cittas arise > and fall away very rapidly. > ------- > > R: So many experiences are made up of combinations of seeing and > > hearing, or seeing a combination of things, or remembering a sound > > already heard while hearing the next one. The idea that one > > experience is completely dropped before the next one arises in > > consciousness does not seem to account for these combination > > experiences, including the construction of a complete sentence that > > makes sense from a number of separate moments. > -------- > N: Through the mind-door there is thinking of the different sense > objects and indeed, sa~n~naa that accompanies every citta remembers > and recognizes an object experienced before. Visible object > experienced through the eye-door is, after there have been some > bhavanga-cittas, experienced through the mind-door and later on there > are different mind-door processes experiencing a concept on account > of what was seen. > Each citta falls away completely, but sa~n~naa performs its function > of marking the object and recognizing it. One may think of a concept > of a whole, such as a person, it seems that we can "see" a person, > but that is a delusion. A person does not impinge on the eyesense. > There could not be remembrance of a complete sentence if different > sounds were not heard or colours were not seen in the case of > reading. In case of deafness or blindness this is impossible. Thanks, Nina, this is a very helpful concise description of the whole process, that is easy to understand, at least as a general idea. I sort of know some of this but this is a better descripton of what takes place. > > R:I wonder when it is said above that citta keeps traveling, if > > that means that citta is accumulating the various moments that make > > up a complete experience, I would be interested in hearing more > > about that. For instance, if citta travels from visual object to > > the mental experience that registers the object, then to a sound > > object, and then somehow puts those experiences together with sanna > > to make sense in the mind door, if that is what is meant by > > 'traveling.' > ------- > N: It just means that different cittas experience each one object. So > many objects present themselves in a day and these could not appear > if citta would not experience them. Thanks. So cittas are just going all over the place and coming upon a great variety of objects, and sanna and other cetasikas have to make sense of it all, and put it into some kind of order through mental processes. > Everything will be clearer if we learn little by little that, while > there is seeing now, seeing only experiences what appears through the > eyesense. While there is hearing now, hearing only experiences what > can be heard. If the present object is not "studied" there will only > be "delirious thinking" ;-)) I guess there are many rupas that are arising all the time that are not experienced, but citta will only experience one particular rupa or mental process at a time... Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126276 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Sarah wrote along these lines. It seems, I believe, that kamma of some > sort is a condition for stronger kamma of that sort, a. k. a. > "accumulation." and a continued chain of this sort can lead to kamma strong enough to > lead to action, i.e., to kammapatha and to vipaka. That is how I understand it now too. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #126277 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise sarahprocter... Dear Betty, Very glad to read your messages. > From: mombettyyugala >As part of the discussion today, Than Achaan(TA)referred to my query concerning the conditions that must come up for understanding to arise. Formerly, TA would always answer that question by saying that one must listen to the Dhamma, contemplate on it and that would act as conditions for understanding (panna--how do we put in the Pali markings?) to arise. But today, her answer to that question was far more clear and precise and Sarah restated it so very beautifully. Sarah, would you restate it again for the benefit of all of us in DSG, in answer to this post? It would be so much appreciated. ... S: Let me try as I recall..... Yes, you asked a good question about the necessary conditions for right understanding to arise. Achan Sujin replied that talking about a reality arising now, one at a time, is helpful as a condition. I think you asked her to clarify and I gave the example of visible object. By talking more about the nature of visible object and how it is just that which is seen now, even at this moment as we communicate, there can be more and more precise understanding of it as it appears and this is a condition for understanding to develop. Or we could talk about seeing now - each moment of seeing arises and falls away instantly. Without seeing there cannot be any experience of visible object. Considering more about different dhammas, understanding that there is only a dhamma now being experienced through the senses and only a dhamma which experiences anything can gradually lead to less clinging to the idea of a self or a thing - just dhammas which are anatta. Ajahn said more about how we can easily miss the point when we think we should learn a lot but don't have any understanding of the dhamma appearing now. Our studies can easily take us away from this moment and the only condition to bring vitakka (thinking) back to this moment is to understand the reality now that we've heard about. Whatever is real now can be studied and directly understood just as it is. This is the only way to give up the idea of self. She talked about how we often think we'd like to let go of the idea of self but how we keep on thinking about people and things all the time, the stories about this and that. Instead, if we talk more about what appears now as it is, like visible object, there can be "a glimpse of understanding" that it's just what appears to seeing - no people or things at all. She also talked, as I recall, about not wishing or hoping (because that is all done with the idea of self), but just understanding it's citta which experiences the object, arising and falling away beyond any "expectations." We think there are many people around us, many objects in our room or outdoors, but at the moment of seeing, there is just visible object appearing, followed by thinking all the time. So the point, she stressed, is always understanding "right now', otherwise there is no way to let go of the idea of self. She repeated this more than once. She also said at one point that it's very easy to just say "visible object appears" but the understanding has to be very deep to really understand that there's no one here at all, nothing at all - no computer, no desk, no drink, no house at all. Just visible object arising and falling away. What is left is just the sign of the elements that cannot be seen, the nimitta, the sign of the various elements which we take for being real, which we take for being people and things all the time. There was also a discussion about how much ignorance is there and that by understanding this, it's the way to develop right understanding. This is because if there's no understanding and no appreciation that realities are not understood now, the tendency is to just want to experience them without any real understanding. I remember her asking us: "What about right now?" Is there no idea at all of what we call visible object or does the understanding come "closer and closer to this moment?" She had also reminded us that if there's no understanding of reality now but we just read, talk and think about the Dhamma texts, we'll just be like scholars who learn a lot but don't know anything about realities and it'll be like this from life to life. "We read a lot of suttas, Abhidhamma and Vinaya. Where are they?" So it's time to really consider and understand what appears to really let go of the idea of a self that can do anything. Just dhammas, just elements arising and falling away now. Gradually, the right understanding can accumulate. We don't know how long life will be, so such understanding has to be now. Thanks, Betty, for encouraging me to reflect on the excellent discussion in the lovely setting with good friends. Metta Sarah p.s All, I'll be very busy before leaving Hong Kong again on Monday, so likely to be delays now and while we're traveling to and in Europe. I just called Lukas and we'll look forward to meeting him and Luraya on Sunday week. ========= #126278 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana sarahprocter... Dear JJ (Jagkrit), ________________________________ > From: jagkrit2012 >>S: A reference that really spells things out is in the Dhammika Sutta >> of the Sutta Nipata (Sn.398-399): >> >> "The layman who joyfully abides in self-control, knowing that the >> use of intoxicants results in loss of self-control, should not >> indulge in taking intoxicants, nor should he cause others to do so, >> nor approve of others so doing. > >> Fools commit evil deeds as a result >> of intoxication, and cause others who are negligent to do the same. >> One should avoid this occasion for evil, this madness, this delusion, >> this joy of fools." > >> ======== >>JJ: Thank you Sarah very much for in-depth explanation and citing. According to above Sutta, can we say that this 5th percept is outstanding to be aware for person in general than other 4s. ... S: It's a very good sutta and reminder about the danger of taking intoxicants, isn't it? The other 4 precepts all involve akusala kamma patha, harming others in ways that will bring results for the offender. Taking intoxicants is not kamma patha, not such serious akusala, but the danger is the negligence it leads to, as the sutta suggests. The one who takes intoxicants is then more likely to abuse others, kill, steal, tell lies or be involved in sexual misconduct, all according to different accumulations, of course. Even if such an outcome doesn't appear to happen in this lifetime, I've heard A.Sujin talking about the danger in accumulation the liking, the habit and what it may lead to in future. It's a good topic we can bring up in Poland together. I'm really very glad you're joining the trip, JJ. It'll be a great help to have you with us. I'll be meeting you and the other Thais in Helsinki to take the flight to Warsaw together. Metta Sarah ====== #126279 From: Ken O Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Problems in life. ashkenn2k Dear Howard and Rob E >> ============================== >> When I say that kamma strong enough to be expressed in action creates >> stronger vipaka than kamma not so strong, I mean to compare acts of >> intention that intend the very same sort of action, comparing apples with apples, >> and not apples with oranges. KC: We must first understand that kamma itself is just a will, it is neutral. The strength of a kamma does not depend on the accumulated kamma because if accumulated kamma causes an act, then there is no salvation. It could influence an act with the arisen roots. The strength of a kamma, depends on its root. A person who wants to kill a person who he dislike, must accumulate dosa for the dislike. It is the strength of the accumulated dosa that cause him to act on this way and not it is kamma that cause the act. Also a stronger vipaka does not necessary depends on the kamma. The text points to two factors that a vipaka is stronger; the objects and the effort taken. The effort taken is viriya and not kamma. Viriya and kamma cannot act without the roots. KC #126280 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:50 pm Subject: Discussion in Bangkok with A.Sujin, August 2012 (3) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Some more brief notes on points relating to DSG discussions: *** 1. On details of location of heart-base and so on - only of use and pariyatti if help us to understand realities as anatta and dhammas now. Same applies to any other details in the texts. Otherwise it will all be forgotten. Always a reminder for anattaness and the truth, otherwise just scholarly research and not pariyatti. 2. on kamma and kamma-patha, as I mentioned she said we shouldn't be "delirious about kamma and details". She said that when she reads about kamma and kamma-patha she just learns to know that they are all dhammas and that this conditions the letting go of the idea of self. If we're concerned about the effect on others or results or effect of others' deeds on us and so on, none of it is understanding realities now. Just citta, cetasika and rupa now. 3. samatha, passaddhi and samadhi such as earlier discussions with Ken O (#114532). Samatha is passaddhi cetasika, so when it mentions passaddhi, no need to say that samatha is a synonym. When it refers to ekaggata or samadhi in the context, already implied that it's with passaddhi cetasika, because it's wholesome and passaddhi cetasika arises with all sobhana cittas. 4.Understanding sense doors and mind doors and the difference between what is understood at moments of satipatthana and vipassana nana which Pt asked about before (e.g. #110673). At moments of satipatthana, the object is a reality and there must be the understanding of realities, such as v.o. now. However, only at vipassana nana, are realities known very clearly, one at a time. Reality is reality, the object is the same, but how clearly is it known? Now the mind-door is 'concealed' so to speak because it seems that seeing sees people and things and that it's light all the time. When reality appears, such as v.o., no delusion. At vipassana nana, the understanding is so precise that it knows whether the object, such as v.o. appears in the sense door or mind door process at that time when many realities appear. (visible object appears in an eye-door process and immediately afterwards in a mind-door process. At moments of understanding now, even if it's direct understanding, there's no idea about which doorway it appears through.) After the vipassana nanas, the knowledge of the parinnas knows the object even more precisely. 5. Doubt and Phil's qu about it in as sense-door process. Yes, it can arise in any process and it can also condition doubt about concepts. All kinds of conventional doubt are akusala too. **** Metta Sarah ====== #126281 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:52 pm Subject: Discussion in Bangkok with A.Sujin, August 2012 (4) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Last installement: **** 6. Jataka verse about upekkha and even-mindedness as quoted by Nina before: “Now is the time to restrain your mind; now, good Dhammapåla, be impartial towards these four persons, that is to say, towards your father who is having your head cut off, the man who is beheading you, your lamenting mother, and yourself.” - " no matter who". 7. Dhamma as therapy? Scott's concerns. All depends on each situation whether someone is directed to a psychiatrist or doctor or one tries to help with Dhamma reminders. Talk about the Dhamma could be the 'magic' or 'medicine' required. The Dhamma is not any short-term fix, however. WE can't just do what we'd like in life or control anything. KS - no fixed rule or standard about what she might say to anyone or how we might help in different situations. Phil's points on addictive tendencies (e.g. #126155) - any activity, any occasion, any time - just realities. 8. Discussions on the bhikkhu's life, the tasks for the bhikkhu - gantha dhura and vipassana dhura (as Nina mentioned before #119703) - understanding the texts and developing satipatthana. The meaning of bhikkhu - the one who sees range of life in samsara, regardless of whether one is in robes. Tadao said the rules are the armor of the bhiikhu. KS disagreed and said that only right understanding is the armor of the bhikkhu. Just following rules without understanding, without kusala cittas is not following the Vinaya. If one recites precepts and wants results it's not sila. The kusala refraining from killing, for example, is the 'proper armour'. Following rules - the only motive should be understanding, to have less akusala. Sammadana, intention to follow perfectly and determination to develop kusala and understanding will lead to good vinaya. Sila has to be kusala citta in this regard. If not, it won't lead to a good bhikkhu's life. So the link between 'rules' and satipatthana which Rob E asked about is understanding. Without understanding, the rules are not followed, however it may seem. Rob E's qu on why the monks would follow the rules if developing satipatthana (#125911) - because they have accumulations to live that life, so they are important because they are not laymen! do the rules help the monk to be aware? It just depends on the individual's accumulations. If there are no accumulations to really be a monk, they are not successful. Satipatthana must be very natural. Without understanding, rules cannot help. Awareness for what?. 9. Satipatthana sutta and Phil's qu about "having removed desires and discontent from the world". (#116560) This refers to very little "having removed desires etc' at the beginning. It shows akusala cannot arise at that moment. Aware of each characteristic of reality. 10. Sa.mkillittha and sa.mkilesika dhammas - KS no idea and not interested in the Pali!! What about the realities now which we can discuss in our own language? *** Metta Sarah ===== #126282 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Commentarial explanation of the last precept Suramerayamajjhapamadatthana jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > S: It's a very good sutta and reminder about the danger of taking intoxicants, isn't it? The other 4 precepts all involve akusala kamma patha, harming others in ways that will bring results for the offender. Taking intoxicants is not kamma patha, not such serious akusala, but the danger is the negligence it leads to, as the sutta suggests. The one who takes intoxicants is then more likely to abuse others, kill, steal, tell lies or be involved in sexual misconduct, all according to different accumulations, of course. Even if such an outcome doesn't appear to happen in this lifetime, I've heard A.Sujin talking about the danger in accumulation the liking, the habit and what it may lead to in future. > -------------- > JJ: Even though taking intoxicants is not kamma patha, but many suttas show bad result of taking them even suferring in hell. I, however, have read one of short line of Budha words about intoxicantion which mentions that: "Wickedness of taking intoxicants are 6 results of being not awareness of 1. loosing assets 2. brawling 3. sickness 4. loosing reputation 5. shamelessness 6. slashing Panna *" * Panna is the most important asset and tool for those who seek the absolute truth (Ariya Sathja). I, therefore, in my opinion see that this 5th percept is quite important. Especially, those whose are not Sotapanna (first stage noble person) can not be sure avoiding to commit this percept. May not this life, how about another. If we are not seriously aware of this, no one can not guarantee in the future that we will not involve in intoxicantion. It is so true T.A. Sujin mention about dangerous accumulation that lead to serious akusala in the future. And Aviccha (ignorance) is the worst. ---------------------- >S: It's a good topic we can bring up in Poland together. I'm really very glad you're joining the trip, JJ. It'll be a great help to have you with us. I'll be meeting you and the other Thais in Helsinki to take the flight to Warsaw together. > ---------------------------- JJ: This topic should be discuss more to understand how danger of breaking the percepts as you say. Looking forward to seeing you in Helsinki Anumothana Jagkrit #126283 From: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:10 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro mombettyyugala Jagrit, I shall look forward to meeting you tomorrow, Betty Dear Ann, So glad that you are on the list as well. Yes, I was supposed to go to Poland with the group, but unfortunately, to make a long story short, there were no conditions for me to go, period. The story of all that is just that, the story. At first I was chagrined, to say the least, but then I thought, ah well, conditions and the dosa dissipated. Do have a wonderful time, tell us all about it when you get back, and I hope there will be plenty of conditions for understanding to arise for all of you while there. When will you be coming to Bangkok again? Have a safe and comfortable trip. Betty -- *Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala* *38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road,* *Chatuchak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand* *mombetty@...; mombetty@...* *mobile: +6681-826-7160 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +6681-826-7160 end_of_the_skype_highlighting* #126284 From: Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:35 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro mombettyyugala Hello, Phil, Yes, I remember meeting you at Au Bon Pain and hope you'll be visiting Thailand again soon. Wow, I don't remember that. Please tell me which year that India discussion took place, I would like to listen to it again and thank Sarah properly for that. That is indeed the best thing about Dhamma friends; their words and deeds can lead to conditions for kusala and/or understanding to arise. Sure, sometimes non-Dhamma friends can also have that effect, but probably not as much; depends upon a whole host of conditions. metta, Betty -- *Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala* *38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road,* *Chatuchak, Bangkok 10900, Thailand* *mombetty@...; mombetty@...* *mobile: +6681-826-7160 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +6681-826-7160 end_of_the_skype_highlighting* #126285 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:55 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro philofillet Hi Betty > Wow, I don't remember that. Please tell me which year that India discussion > took place, I would like to listen to it again and thank Sarah properly for > that. I'm afraid I couldn't tell you, it would be either 2004 or 2005 India trip... ...wow, what a co-incidence. I just clicked on a talk at random, Patna 2004, and found you talking about all the dosa, the buses, the heat, the noise, and A.Sujin is saying, understand, and you say "how can you understand when there is all that dosa" and A.Sujin says "dosa is not seeing, dosa is not visible object, dosa is just that reality, just that, which is conditioned, and cannot stay." I think the talk where you mention Sarah helping is the same trip, later, I guess... > That is indeed the best thing about Dhamma friends; their words and > deeds can lead to conditions for kusala and/or understanding to arise. > Sure, sometimes non-Dhamma friends can also have that effect, but probably > not as much; depends upon a whole host of conditions. Well, Dhamma friends CAN help, that's for sure, but sometimes akuala is so powerful that even our Dhamma friends can't help. Sujin talked to me quite earnestly about some bad akusala kamma patha I had been performing leading up to my trip last year, but no Dhamma friend could have talked me out of it. Eventually (only recently, and perhaps only for the time being) I did stop it, but the understanding arose on its own. So yes, Dhamma friends are valuable conditions, but there are limits. A whole host of conditions as you say...I think Dhamma friends can help bring us back to dhammas, help pull us out of identifying with stories and concepts, that's for sure, for example, the way A.Sujin helped above, the dosa is just the reality that has arisen and MUST fall away, just a moment, and we can let go of the idea of permanence of the dosa more easily... Phil #126286 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Hello, intro philofillet Hello again > Sujin talked to me quite earnestly about some bad akusala kamma patha I had been performing Correction. Sukin. Phil #126287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Sarah, A most helpful post. We do not know how long our life will be, better investigate the reality just now. I send it on to Lodewijk. Nina. Op 31-aug-2012, om 9:02 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Yes, you asked a good question about the necessary conditions for > right understanding to arise. Achan Sujin replied that talking > about a reality arising now, one at a time, is helpful as a condition. #126288 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:12 pm Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (10) philofillet Dear Group Pt.2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "Hence, we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta that sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different from the citta that hears through the ears, which is another type of citta. The citta that thinks is again another type of citta." (53) (end of passage) In the talk I referred to in another thread, A.Sujin, when asked what to do about all the dosa in a hard situation, says "dosa is not seeing. Dosa is not visible object...it is just the reality that is, it is conditioned and cannot stay." (or words to that effect.) I haven't been doing my studying recently, so a basic question. The seeing itself is not accompanied by dosa, the hearing neither. The dosa arises with akusala javanas in response to the seeing, to the hearing - is that right? In any case, it helps to be reminded that certain dhammas that are so powerful in compelling us to identify with them are just realities that arise and cannot stay. And citta that is seeing, citta that is hearing, so bare, rising and falling away so quickly, so free of content, just begining to understand them is so helpful for begin to have a slight taste of detachment.... Phil #126289 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise sarahprocter... Dear Nina, >________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom >A most helpful post. We do not know how long our life will be, better >investigate the reality just now. I send it on to Lodewijk. ... S: Thx, Nina. Yes, I remembered that part about her emphasizing that we don't know how long our life will be, so understand now. If I have any free time over the weekend, I'll try to find the part and transcribe it. We don't know how long our life will be or what might happen anytime, like my friend Sharon in the coma or Ivan with his alzheimers. A few years ago he was writing occasional excellent posts to the list (as Matt R). Now he cannot speak in any comprehensible way. Just the reality now, just visible object appearing through the eye-sense now. One world at a time. Metta Sarah ==== #126290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (10) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 31-aug-2012, om 15:12 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > In the talk I referred to in another thread, A.Sujin, when asked > what to do about all the dosa in a hard situation, says "dosa is > not seeing. Dosa is not visible object...it is just the reality > that is, it is conditioned and cannot stay." (or words to that > effect.) I haven't been doing my studying recently, so a basic > question. The seeing itself is not accompanied by dosa, the hearing > neither. The dosa arises with akusala javanas in response to the > seeing, to the hearing - is that right? ----- N: Right. But more important: it is only, only one among the many conditioned realities. But it is so much "my dosa", we find it so important. Dosa is not only anger, it has many shades and varieties. It can be sadness, dejectedness about a difficult situation, etc. And then the teapot falls on its side, tea spilled all over, that is the last drop. Where is the patience? But of course we are thinking again about situations instead of investigating paramattha dhammas. So often taken in by situations. And if we think: I should be more patient, very likely we take patience and the lack of it for self. ------- > > Ph: In any case, it helps to be reminded that certain dhammas that > are so powerful in compelling us to identify with them are just > realities that arise and cannot stay. And citta that is seeing, > citta that is hearing, so bare, rising and falling away so quickly, > so free of content, just begining to understand them is so helpful > for begin to have a slight taste of detachment.... ------ N: Seeing, hearing, dosa, dhammas are all equal in as far as they are only conditioned dhammas. They are just dhamma. This helps not to have any preference for specific dhammas. ------ Nina. #126291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 31-aug-2012, om 2:42 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > N: It just means that different cittas experience each one object. So > > many objects present themselves in a day and these could not appear > > if citta would not experience them. > > Thanks. So cittas are just going all over the place and coming upon > a great variety of objects, and sanna and other cetasikas have to > make sense of it all, and put it into some kind of order through > mental processes. ------ N: "sanna and other cetasikas have to make sense of it all", well, I would not put it that way. Citta is the leader in experiencing an object, and cetasikas are helpers, assisting citta each in their own way while they also experience that object. ------- > > > Everything will be clearer if we learn little by little that, while > > there is seeing now, seeing only experiences what appears through > the > > eyesense. While there is hearing now, hearing only experiences what > > can be heard. If the present object is not "studied" there will only > > be "delirious thinking" ;-)) > > R: I guess there are many rupas that are arising all the time that > are not experienced, but citta will only experience one particular > rupa or mental process at a time... ------ N: One ruupa or one naama can be object of citta, and cittas that experience objects through the relevant doorways arise within processes. The bhavangacittas do not arise in processes but in between processes. ------ Nina. #126292 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 31-aug-2012, om 15:21 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We don't know how long our life will be or what might happen > anytime, like my friend Sharon in the coma or Ivan with his > alzheimers. A few years ago he was writing occasional excellent > posts to the list (as Matt R). Now he cannot speak in any > comprehensible way. ------ N: But I was happy about his joy in seeing you, and also the fact that he still likes to listen to Acharn. At least he still recognizes people that are dear to him. ------- > S:Just the reality now, just visible object appearing through the > eye-sense now. One world at a time. ------ N: I think we often have to hear this. Easy to forget when involved in stories. Delirious thinking, s strong expression, but effective. Nina. #126293 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise jagkrit2012 Dear Sarah and Nina First of all I would like to thank Khun Nina who produces many good Dhamma books to study. Apidhamma in daily life is one of very find books that explain very well about Paramath Dhamma. My daughter is surprisingly seemed to like to read and absorb the content of this book which is translated into Thais. And It's also nice to know you via virtual web board and have a chance to read and learn your dhamma explanation here in the group. I've known Ivan for sometimes since we went to India last year with T.A. Sujin and friends. Right now he's seem to barely remember mostly story. T.A. Sujin, once, said most of people always remember story but not the reality we experience. I do hope that Ivan who study dhamma for years even though he can not remember story but who knows his sanna (remembrance) may be recognize visible object, sound, smell, taste and touch as appeal as it is with out any story and self. T.A. Sujin always says that story never follow us to the next life but understanding reality is different because reality is always there in every life. It is worth it to learn and understand reality. Anumothana Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Op 31-aug-2012, om 15:21 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > We don't know how long our life will be or what might happen > > anytime, like my friend Sharon in the coma or Ivan with his > > alzheimers. A few years ago he was writing occasional excellent > > posts to the list (as Matt R). Now he cannot speak in any > > comprehensible way. > ------ > N: But I was happy about his joy in seeing you, and also the fact > that he still likes to listen to Acharn. At least he still recognizes > people that are dear to him. > ------- > > S:Just the reality now, just visible object appearing through the > > eye-sense now. One world at a time. > ------ > N: I think we often have to hear this. Easy to forget when involved > in stories. Delirious thinking, s strong expression, but effective. > > Nina. > > > > > #126294 From: "azita" Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:22 am Subject: Re: conditions for understanding to arise gazita2002 Hallo Betty, Sarah, Nice to see you here again at DSG Betty, and I'll see you in Bkk at the end of this month, hopefully. I say hopefully bec one never knows when cuticitta will arise or other conditions arise and change 'our' plans. Great post Sarah, thanx, full of good reminders. Chittapala has kindly helped download dhamma talks onto an ipod for me so have sent CD/MP3 discs to Sundara(Keiran) who rang me the other day - had not heard from him in years. He is so grateful that he met and listened to A.S. He is living back on the GoldCoast having left Christchurch and its earthquakes - I think both his parents have died. Enjoy yr time in Poland, Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Betty, > > Very glad to read your messages. > #126295 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise philofillet Hi Sarah, Betty, Nina all Wow, what a fantastic post, full of reminders about the reality now and more often than not in terms of seeing and visible object. No rules, yes, but less "delerious thinking" when we are brought back to these seemingly ordinary and obvious realities, so much less fascinsting (it seems because of the delerious thinking) than speculating and coming up with theories about just what kamma is , just what D.O is. In my opinion Betty's arrival is an example of how having more members who actually listen to A.S active on the list helps to bring us back to consideration of the present monent, away from delerious thinking...but of course I am lost in delerious thinking as I write that. Phil p.s looking forawrd to reading a transcription, if/when ypu have time Sarah, but maybe you won't...off to Europe so soon! #126296 From: "philip" Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 9:07 am Subject: Re: The sea of concepts (no 2). philofillet Dear Nina all The following can't be repeated often enough: Acharn: wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The sea of concepts (no 2). > > Acharn: because of conditions and then it falls away. Ruupa appears and can > be known, but it is not a reality that knows something; it arises and > falls away. This is the true Dhamma of the noble ones, ariya sacca > dhamma. Pa~n~naa should be developed very gradually so that we have > more understanding of the characteristics of realities that appear. > When we do not know the realities that arise and fall away, we are in > the sea of concepts, of images and of words and names. We remember > concepts of what appears through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense > and the mind-door. When the characteristic of hardness appears there > is no "thing" in hardness. In our body from head to toe there is > hardness and the characteristic of hardness that appears is not "us'. > If one is able to know the characteristics of paramattha dhammas, no > matter through which doorway they appear, one will have more and more > understanding that there is no self. > > It is a long way, the Buddha developed the perfections for > innumerable aeons. We cannot compare our understanding with the > understanding of the Buddha who developed the highest pa~n~naa. > However, pa~n~naa that knows the truth is not different from knowing > the truth of what appears now, not of what is past already or of what > has not yet appeared. We should know ourselves, we must know when we > are in the sea of images and the sea of names. If we understand the > characteristic of sati sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa) which is > actually satipa.t.thaana, that is our island in the sea, it is our > refuge. When characteristics are understood, one at a time, this is > the way to abandon the idea of taking realities for self. > > > --------- > > Nina. > > > > > > #126297 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 12:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: "sanna and other cetasikas have to make sense of it all", well, I > would not put it that way. Citta is the leader in experiencing an > object, and cetasikas are helpers, assisting citta each in their own > way while they also experience that object. I see what you mean that citta is leader, I guess because it is the main experiencer. But I wonder if citta could know its object in any way without sati, sanna, vicara, vittakha, etc., which inform it about the nature of the object...? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #126298 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 3:40 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? aungsoeminuk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear group, The continuation of pt. II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. "The Atthasaalini (or, The Expositor), the commentary to the Dhammasangani (Book I, Part IV, Ch.II, 140) states that the reality-----to the variegated nature of all the different cittas that arise." (53) > (end of passage) ----------------------------------------------- Ph: Does the variegated nature of citta refer especially to thinking? Is seeing variegated, is hearing variegated? ----------------------------------------------- Dhammarakkhita: The variegated nature of citta refers to " the variegated conditions of typical citta of unified citta or sample citta". There is no citta that has all forms of cetasikas associated with. But a citta does have cetasikas as accompaniments. Eye-consciousness or cakkhuvi~n~naa.na citta has only 7 accompanying cetasikas namely phassa, vedana, cetana, sa~n~naa, ekaggataa, jivitindria and manasikaara. Kaamaavacara javana cittas are those whom we think of variegated natured cittas. ---------------------------------------------- (Either in itself or because of the variegated nature of ruupa that is the object of seeing and hearing?) ---------------------------------------------- Dhammarakkhita: Ruupa run a different course but at the same time when succession of cittas is arising. ------------------------------------------------ In a following paragraph we find "hence, we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta that sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different from the citta that hears through the ears, which is another type of citta. The citta that thinks is again another type of citta." But within thinking there is so much variegation of citta. How about within seeing? Is the citta that sees a dark color variegated from the citta that sees a light color or is only the rupa variegated? > > Phil ------------------------------------------------ Dhammarakkhita: Within seeing there is a succession of different cittas. When we see an object there had been billions of cittas happened. Dhammarakkhita > #126299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Azita, Op 1-sep-2012, om 0:22 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > Great post Sarah, thanx, full of good reminders. Chittapala has > kindly helped download dhamma talks onto an ipod for me so have > sent CD/MP3 discs to Sundara(Keiran) who rang me the other day ------ N: That is wonderful you sent him Mp3 and that he is interested. He must be the same as Bhikkhu Sundara before. I remember him. anumodana, Nina. #126300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Thank you for your kind words and I am so glad your daughter read Abh in Daily Life. If she has questions she could put them here at dsg through you perhaps? That would be useful for everybody. Op 31-aug-2012, om 17:27 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > T.A. Sujin always says that story never follow us to the next life > but understanding reality is different because reality is always > there in every life. > > It is worth it to learn and understand reality. ------ N: Yes, I remember that she said that in a next life all we learn from books, texts, the Pali language, all languages I learnt, is forgotten, but whatever pa~n~naa understands is accumulated, it is not lost. Thank you for the reminder that understanding reality is what is most important. Nina. #126301 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? sarahprocter... Dear Dhammarakkhita (Htoo), I just want to remind other friends that you are our dear Htoo writing! So glad to read any input from you. Do hope conditions are such that it's easier for you to post now. Metta Sarah >________________________________ > From: aungsoeminuk >Dhammarakkhita: >Within seeing there is a succession of different cittas. When we see an object there had been billions of cittas happened. > >Dhammarakkhita #126302 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Phil, Betty, JJ & all >>N: ... We do not know how long our life will be, better >>investigate the reality just now. I send it on to Lodewijk. ... S: You all encouraged me to find the extract relating to this part and to transcribe it: *** KS: It's always wishing, wishing, wishing, hoping because the idea of self is there as long as there is no understanding of any reality as it is. For those who have accumulated [understanding], there can be the understanding of whatever appears - sound - as just a moment of samsara, completely gone. Just keep on understanding reality which appears The more one studies, it will give the understanding of not self, not just following with attachment to the words. Even 'dhamma' - just one word - is enough. When there's more and more understanding, it will lead to arahatship for sure. Not anything else, but just this moment [of understanding, because you see we read a lot of suttas, Abhidhamma and Vinaya. Where are they? See - what is left? Just one word, even just one word is not left but there can be and will always be that which is accumulated from moment to moment to understand better and better about not self and this is the point of studying the details of Dhamma. And who knows how long life is or would be? Maybe today, tomorrow - no understanding of reality right now and all the words are left but the understanding follows from moment to moment next life. Just learn to be conditions for understanding reality right now as not self. **** Metta Sarah ====== #126303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you very much. I keep such extracts to read to Lodewijk before he goes to sleep. Nina. Op 1-sep-2012, om 12:22 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > >>N: ... We do not know how long our life will be, better > >>investigate the reality just now. I send it on to Lodewijk. > ... > S: You all encouraged me to find the extract relating to this part > and to transcribe it: > > #126304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 1, 2012 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 1-sep-2012, om 4:41 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > I see what you mean that citta is leader, I guess because it is the > main experiencer. But I wonder if citta could know its object in > any way without sati, sanna, vicara, vittakha, etc., which inform > it about the nature of the object...? ------- N: Citta cannot arise without cetasikas. As you know, seven cetasikas, the universals, are indispensable, they have to accompany every citta. They all assist the citta in knowing its object. I wrote in my Cetasikas, end Ch 7: < When seeing-consciousness arises, each of the 'universals' which accompanies it performs its own function. Phassa which accompanies seeing-consciousness is eye-contact (cakkhu-samphassa). It contacts visible object. When there is eye-contact there is the coinciding of eye-base, visible object and seeing-consciousness. Vedanā, which is in this case indifferent feeling, experiences the 'taste' of visible object. Saññā 'marks' and remembers visible object. Cetanā coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas. Since seeing-consciousness is vipākacitta, cetanā merely coordinates, it does not 'will' kusala or akusala. Ekaggatā performs its function of focusing on visible object; it does not focus on any other object. Jīvitindriya sustains citta and the accompanying cetasikas until they fall away. Manasikāra 'drives' citta and the accompanying cetasikas towards visible object. Seeing-consciousness needs the accompanying 'universals' in order to cognize visible object; it could not arise and cognize its object without the assistance of the accompanying cetasikas. As we have seen, only the dvi-pañcaviññāṇas (the five pairs of sense-cognitions) are not accompanied by other cetasikas besides the 'universals'. All the other cittas which arise in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process and also the paṭisandhi-citta, rebirth-consciousness, the bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, and the cuti-citta, dying-consciousness, are accompanied by other cetasikas besides the 'universals'. The 'universals' have different qualities as they arise with different cittas. For example, when kusala citta arises all the accompanying cetasikas, the 'universals' included, are kusala as well. Vedanā, feeling, which accompanies kusala citta can be pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. Cetanā, volition, which accompanies kusala citta has a double function: it coordinates the tasks of the accompanying dhammas and it 'wills' kusala. If it motivates wholesome deeds it is capable of producing the appropriate result when it is the right time for it. Thus, kusala cetanā is different from cetanā which accompanies vipākacitta. When the citta is akusala, all the accompanying cetasikas are akusala as well. Vedanā which accompanies akusala citta can be pleasant feeling (in the case of lobha-mūla-citta), unpleasant feeling (in the case of dosa-mūla-citta), or indifferent feeling (in the case of lobha-mūla-citta and moha-mūla-citta). As regards cetanā which accompanies akusala citta, this has a double function: it coordinates the accompanying dhammas on the object and it 'wills' akusala. If it motivates unwholesome deeds it is capable of producing the appropriate result when it is the right time. Ekaggatā, concentration or one-pointedness, which accompanies akusala citta is different from ekaggatā which accompanies kusala citta. Thus we see that mental phenomena which arise together condition one another. If we have more understanding of the many different conditions for the phenomena which arise, it will help us to see them as elements, not as a person, a self.> ------- Nina. #126305 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 4:08 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Agitation and Worry ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<(4) Agitation and Worry (uddhacca-kukkucca) 1277. The arising of agitation and worry comes about through unwise bnngmg to mind in regard to uncalm of mind "Uncalm" is a name for the state of being uncalmed. Agitation and worry are the same as that in meaning. Because of employing unwise bringing to mind much in regard to that, agitation and worry arise 1278. Hence the Blessed One said: There is uncalm of mind, bhikkhus. Unwise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen agitation and worry, or for the growth and increase of arisen agitation and worry1 (S v 103). 1279. But abandoning comes about through wise bringing to mind in regard to calm of mind called concentration. 1280. Hence the Blessed One said: There is calm of mind, bhikkhus. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the non-arising of unarisen agitation and worry or for the non-growth and non-increase of arisen agitation and worry' (S v 106). >> In the Commentary of Satipatthana <> KC #126306 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 4:15 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Six things Leads to abandoning of Agitation and Worr ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1281. Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of agitation and worry: (1) being learned, (2) asking questions, (3) knowledge of the nature of the Vinaya (rules), |274] (4) cultivation of seniors, (5) good friendship, (6) suitable talk. 1282. (1) For agitation and worry are abandoned through learning in one who acquires one, two, three, four or five collections (nikdya) as to both Pali and meaning. 1283. (2) Also in one who asks much about what is allowed and not allowed. 1284. (3) Also in one who has knowledge of its nature through attaining mastery of what is prescribed in the Vinaya. 1285. (4) Also in one who frequents senior, aged elders. 1286. (5) Agitation and worry are abandoned in one who cultivates good friends who are expert in the Vinaya like the Elder Upali. 1287. (6) Also it is abandoned through suitable talk, while standing, sitting, etc., which is based on what is allowed and not allowed. 1288. Hence it was said [above]: "Six things lead to the abandoning of agitation and worry: being learned, asking questions, knowledge of the nature of the Vinaya (rules), cultivation of seniors, good friendship, suitable talk". 1289. But he understands that it is through the Arahat path for agitation and through the Never-Returner path for worry that there comes to be the future non-arising of the agitation and worry abandoned by means of these six things.>> In the commentary of Satipattha <> KC #126307 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 4:23 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Doubt ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<(5) Uncertainty {vicikiccha) 1290. The arising of uncertainty comes about through unwise bringing to mind in regard to uncertainty-producing states. "Uncertainty-producing states" is a name for uncertainty itself because of its being the reason for continued uncertainty. Because of employing unwise bringing to mind much in regard to that, uncertainty arises. 1291 Hence the Blessed One said: There are uncertainty-producing states, bhikkhus. Unwise bringing to m.nd much practised therein is the nutriment for the arising of unansen uncertainty or for the growth and increase of arisen uncertainty (S v IW). 1292. But its abandoning comes about through wise bringing to mind in regard to profitable and unprofitable, etc. states. 1293. Hence the Blessed One said: There are profitable and unprofitable states, bhikkhus, blameful and blameless states, states to be cultivated and not to be cultivated, states low and high, states dark and bright with their counterparts. Wise bringing to mind much practised therein is the nutriment for the non-arising of unansen uncertainty or for the non-growth and non-increase of arisen uncertainty' (S v 106).>> Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126308 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 4:30 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Hindrances - Six things lead to abandoning of Doubt ashkenn2k Dear all Dispeller of Delusion <<1294. Furthermore, six things lead to the abandoning of uncertainty: (I) being learned, (2) asking questions, (3) knowledge of the nature of the Vinaya (rules), (4) abundance of resolution, (5) good friendship, (6) suitable talk. 1295. For uncertainty is abandoned through learning in one who acquires one, two, three, four or five Collections as to both Pali and meaning. 1296. (2) Also in one who asks much about the Three Jewels. 1297. (3) Also in one who has attained mastery in the Vinaya. 1298. (4) Also |275| in one who has much resolution called faith to be placed in the Three Jewels. 1299. (5) Uncertainty is abandoned in one who cultivates good friends who are resolute in faith like the Elder Vakkali. 1300. (6) Also it is abandoned through suitable talk, while standing, sitting, etc., which is based on the qualities of the Three Jewels 1301. Hence it was said [above]: "Six things lead to the abandoning of uncertainty: being learned, asking questions, knowledge of the nature of the Vinaya (rules), abundance of resolution, good friend- ship, suitable talk". 1302. But he understands that it is through the Stream-Enterer path that there comes to be the future non-arising of the uncertainty abandoned by means of these six things>> KC. #126309 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 5:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (7) Does "citta is variegated" refer especially to thinking? aungsoeminuk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Dhammarakkhita (Htoo), > I just want to remind other friends that you are our dear Htoo writing! > So glad to read any input from you. > Do hope conditions are such that it's easier for you to post now. > Metta > Sarah ________________________________ > > From: aungsoeminuk > >Dhammarakkhita: > >Within seeing there is a succession of different cittas. When we see an object there had been billions of cittas happened. > > > >Dhammarakkhita ____________________________________________________________________ Dear Sarah, Thanks for your message and invitation for input. The problem is that I prefer Paa.li for some important Paa.li words while DSG use simple English. Time is another factor that limits me to appear. Anyway I am coming again. Htoo #126310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 8:28 pm Subject: What I heard: Paramattha dhammas and concepts. nilovg Dear friends, Paramattha dhammas and concepts. Kh Sujin: Kh Sujin refers to the three rounds of understanding the noble Truths: sacca ~naa.na, understanding of what has to be known and what the Path is; kicca ~naa.na, understanding of the task, that is, satipa.t.thaana; kata ~naa.na: understanding of what has been realized, the realisation of the truth. Kh Sujin: -------- Nina. #126311 From: "azita" Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 9:06 pm Subject: Re: conditions for understanding to arise gazita2002 hallo Nina Yes, it is the same person you remember as Bhikkhu Sundara. Well, conceptually the same:) so I hope he finds the MP3's beneficial. You would probably remember Chittapala who was Jotipanno back in the 'old days' - he ordained in Wat Bovarne and moved to SriLanka where he lived at the island monestery down near Galle. He is no longer a monk but choses to live rather simply on another island on the north east coast of Australia, about 300kms south of where I live. patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azita, > Op 1-sep-2012, om 0:22 heeft azita het volgende geschreven: > > > Great post Sarah, thanx, full of good reminders. Chittapala has > > kindly helped download dhamma talks onto an ipod for me so have > > sent CD/MP3 discs to Sundara(Keiran) who rang me the other day > ------ > N: That is wonderful you sent him Mp3 and that he is interested. He > must be the same as Bhikkhu Sundara before. I remember him. > anumodana, > Nina. #126312 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise philofillet Hello Jagkrit, Nina, all > > > T.A. Sujin always says that story never follow us to the next life > > but understanding reality is different because reality is always > > there in every life. > > > > It is worth it to learn and understand reality. > ------ > N: Yes, I remember that she said that in a next life all we learn > from books, texts, the Pali language, all languages I learnt, is > forgotten, but whatever pa~n~naa understands is accumulated, it is > not lost. Thank you for the reminder that understanding reality is > what is most important. Ph: Very interesting. Of course one of the conditions for the panna that understands realities is hearing the teaching. The key seems to be to have the conditions not to get intoxicated by reading about deep teachings (e.g D.O) in a way that leads to "delerious thinking" and oblivion to the realities of the moment. We are so fortunate to have a teacher who tirelessly pulls us out of our excessive thinking about deep teachings (valuable to know something about them, of course) and back to the present dhammas. Phil #126313 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Sep 2, 2012 11:30 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (10) sprlrt Hi Phil, The Visuddhimagga and also the Dispeller of delusion, in the dhatuniddesa, explain how the elements can be seen by pa~n~naa: the ruupa of the 5 senses (eye...body) are compared to a mirror; the ruupas making up their respective objects (visible...tangible) to a face standing in front of it; and the five sense-consciousnesses (eye-consciousness...body-consciousness) to its reflection appearing on the surface of the mirror. I've found it helpful to consider eye-consciousness ... body-consciousness in terms of a reflection appearing on the surface of a mirror, something one can't touch or hold, an entirely different kind of reality than gocara and pasaada ruupas, the ruupas which inpinge and which are inpinged upon. The text goes on comparing the javanas cittas that follow through the mind door to a monkey grasping one branch after the other. Alberto > Dear Group > > Pt.2 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket > continued: > > "Hence, we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta > that sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different > from the citta that hears through the ears, which is another type of > citta. The citta that thinks is again another type of citta." (53) > > (end of passage) > > In the talk I referred to in another thread, A.Sujin, when asked > what to do about all the dosa in a hard situation, says "dosa is not > seeing. Dosa is not visible object...it is just the reality that is, > it is conditioned and cannot stay." (or words to that effect.) I > haven't been doing my studying recently, so a basic question. The > seeing itself is not accompanied by dosa, the hearing neither. The > dosa arises with akusala javanas in response to the seeing, to the > hearing - is that right? > > In any case, it helps to be reminded that certain dhammas that > are so powerful in compelling us to identify with them are just > realities that arise and cannot stay. And citta that is seeing, citta > that is hearing, so bare, rising and falling away so quickly, so free > of content, just begining to understand them is so helpful for begin > to have a slight taste of detachment.... > > Phil #126314 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise jagkrit2012 Dear Phil, Nina , all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Ph: Very interesting. Of course one of the conditions for the panna that understands realities is hearing the teaching. The key seems to be to have the conditions not to get intoxicated by reading about deep teachings (e.g D.O) in a way that leads to "delerious thinking" and oblivion to the realities of the moment. We are so fortunate to have a teacher who tirelessly pulls us out of our excessive thinking about deep teachings (valuable to know something about them, of course) and back to the present dhammas. > --------------- >JJ: It is so fortunate as you said to have T.A who always reminds us every time when contemplating dhamma not to step far into "delirious thinking". > However, I wonder where is the fine line between substantial thinking vs delirious thinking? What is the criterion we can use as awareness during reading or discussing dhamma which can be self reminder when no one around to keep us in the line? Anumothana Jagkrit #126315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 2-sep-2012, om 16:45 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > JJ: It is so fortunate as you said to have T.A who always reminds > us every time when contemplating dhamma not to step far into > "delirious thinking". > > > However, I wonder where is the fine line between substantial > thinking vs delirious thinking? What is the criterion we can use as > awareness during reading or discussing dhamma which can be self > reminder when no one around to keep us in the line? ------ N: Gradually we can learn that thinking, any kind of thinking, is only a conditioned naama. When thinking arises, it is by conditions and nobody can stop it. We should not mind or worry about it what kind of thinking arises. If we mind, it means that we prefer certain realities. But they all arise by conditions anyway. Also, if we try to find out, it has fallen away already. Another reality is then the present reality. You write, when "no one around to keep us in the line": no person around, but understanding of realities can develop. T.A. always says that the Buddha taught us in such a way that "our own" understanding can develop, and then we are not dependent on another person. In the same way Acharn helps us so that we need not depend on a person. She sometimes says that she is not a teacher, meaning we have to develop our own understanding, nobody can do that for us. But listening is always good, never enough. By listening, we understand a little more each time and in this way pa~n~naa can grow. Nina. #126316 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, ________________________________ > From: philip >> N: Yes, I remember that she said that in a next life all we learn >> from books, texts, the Pali language, all languages I learnt, is >> forgotten, but whatever pa~n~naa understands is accumulated, it is >> not lost. Thank you for the reminder that understanding reality is >> what is most important. > >Ph: Very interesting. Of course one of the conditions for the panna that understands realities is hearing the teaching. The key seems to be to have the conditions not to get intoxicated by reading about deep teachings (e.g D.O) in a way that leads to "delerious thinking" and oblivion to the realities of the moment. ... S: Yes, just lots of lobha, mana and ditthi when intoxicated or lost in "delirious thinking", i.e papanca (proliferations) which the "mad" worldlings are experts at when there's no understanding of pathavi (hardness) as pathavi, visible object as visible object, thinking as thinking - all anatta, no person, no thing at all. This doesn't mean there cannot be reading and considering about D.O. (for example), but what is D.O. now? What is the avijja arising now that can be directly known? **** A friend was asking a couple of times about "how much" study there should be: KS: Again! The idea of self, 'how much' is the idea of self. No understanding, just 'how much'! S: Setting a rule - If one has the idea of "I'd better study the Patthana", it's setting a rule, it's not understanding the reality which appears now, the seeing and the visible object now. ***** Phil, you made some good points about 'stratagems' including turning to suttas. As you said, "only an understanding of the presently arisen citta can possibly help." Metta Sarah ====== #126317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 6:08 pm Subject: What I heard: The Sea of concepts, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The sea of concepts.no 3 Sujin: ******* Nina. #126318 From: "sarah" Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 6:29 pm Subject: Re: rebirth anagami sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >N: I listened to audio K.K. 2011, March: did I get this right? Anagamis > > are reborn not only in Suddhaavaasa, but also in other ruupa brahma > > planes? They have no conditions for clinging to sense objects and > > even when they did not develop jhaana I understand that they are not > > reborn in sensuous planes, we discussed this before. Are only those > > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > ... > S: Yes, I understand this to be so. ... S: On a flight, I listened to a recording, maybe the same one. I understood KS to be saying that only those anagrams who had attained arupa jhana (highest jhana) were reborn in suddhaavaasa and I think she was saying that the 5 kinds I referred to (as quoted from CMA) referred just to these. metta Sarah ===== #126319 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise jagkrit2012 Dear Nina > N: Gradually we can learn that thinking, any kind of thinking, is > only a conditioned naama. When thinking arises, it is by conditions > and nobody can stop it. We should not mind or worry about it what > kind of thinking arises. ---------- JJ: Thank you very much for your kind reminder. It is so true that any type of thinking arises by condition. ----------- N: If we mind, it means that we prefer certain > realities. But they all arise by conditions anyway. Also, if we try > to find out, it has fallen away already. Another reality is then the > present reality. ------------ JJ: And no one can do anything about it really. ------------- N: You write, when "no one around to keep us in the line": no person > around, but understanding of realities can develop. T.A. always says > that the Buddha taught us in such a way that "our own" understanding > can develop, and then we are not dependent on another person. In the > same way Acharn helps us so that we need not depend on a person. She > sometimes says that she is not a teacher, meaning we have to develop > our own understanding, nobody can do that for us. But listening is > always good, never enough. By listening, we understand a little more > each time and in this way pa~n~naa can grow. ------------ JJ: However, when our own understanding is at minimal, we need guidance from Kalyanamirta, best friends : T.A and dhamma friends, to input our thought with right understanding first and, by ourself, we can develop more understanding. When more understanding develops, delirious thinking should less arise. I got your point now with not prefer or hope that delirious thinking should not arise. Because I see self arises instead. Thank you again. Anumothana Jagkrit #126320 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 10:00 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Gym ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: In a sense it is interesting to observe anatta when formal sitting meditation doesn't work. > > One of the ways that shows anatta is when one has free time, to sit to meditate and try not to move, not to think anything, not to imagine for 5 or more minutes (try an hour). > > Interesting thing to observe is that no matter how much orders you gave, the body can fidget, and the mind drown in fantasies or thoughts about unimportant things... pt: Yes, that's true. In instances like those it seems things just happen and cannot be made to happen. So anatta. Yet in other instances, it seems things can be made to happen. But if anatta must hold for both instances, then what is the difference? Best wishes pt #126321 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 10:09 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Wasteland ptaus1 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > S: The Bodhisatta and disciples like Sariputta and Mogallana listened to very wise teachers and attained the highest jhanas because they clearly understood kusala and akusala and the danger of attachment to sense objects. There were countless people at the time who had attained jhanas, who had heard a lot about kusala and akusala, but no understanding of these states as anatta. That's what I'm wondering - how is the difference between kusala and akusala explained outside a dispensation? As there's no knowledge of anatta, and thus, vipassana, it therefore must apply to samatha development and samatha kind of panna. So how exactly are panna of that kind and kusala explained? Thanks. Best wishes pt #126322 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 10:12 pm Subject: Embarrassment ptaus1 Hi all, I was wondering what is embarrassment in abhidhamma terms? It seems like there can be fear of wrong-doing somewhere in there, but then I'd think it's mostly just a lot of conceit and dosa? Best wishes pt #126323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 11:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirth anagami nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 3-sep-2012, om 10:29 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > N: Are only those > > > who developed jhaana reborn in Suddhaavaasa? > > ... > > S: Yes, I understand this to be so. > ... > > S: On a flight, I listened to a recording, maybe the same one. I > understood KS to be saying that only those anagrams who had > attained arupa jhana (highest jhana) were reborn in suddhaavaasa > and I think she was saying that the 5 kinds I referred to (as > quoted from CMA) referred just to these. ------- N: For those who did not follow the thread, quoting again from the Guide: A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non- returners are reborn there. The texts mention five types of non-returner: (1) One who, having been reborn spontaneously in a higher world, generates the final path before he has reached the midpoint of the life-span (antaraa-parinibbaayii). (2) One who generates the final path after passing the midpoint of the life-span, even when on the verge of death (upahacca-parinibbaayii). (3) One who attains the final path without exertion (asankhaara- parinibbaayii). (4) One who attains the final path with exertion (sasankhaara- parinibbaayii). (5) One who passes from one higher realm to another until he reaches the Akani.t.tha realm, the Highest Pure Abode, and there attains the final path (uddha.msoto akani.t.thagamii). ----- (end quote) Nina. #126324 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 3, 2012 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Embarrassment and pa~n~naa with jhaana. nilovg Dear pt, Op 3-sep-2012, om 14:12 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > I was wondering what is embarrassment in abhidhamma terms? It seems > like there can be fear of wrong-doing somewhere in there, but then > I'd think it's mostly just a lot of conceit and dosa? ----- N: It rather describes a situation, in conventional terms. It is not a specific cetasika. As you suggest, different types of akusala cetasikas are involved, depending on the individual. ----- Your other post about jhaana: Sarah: There were countless people at the time who had attained jhanas, who had heard a lot about kusala and akusala, but no understanding of these states as anatta. pt:That's what I'm wondering - how is the difference between kusala and akusala explained outside a dispensation? As there's no knowledge of anatta, and thus, vipassana, it therefore must apply to samatha development and samatha kind of panna. So how exactly are panna of that kind and kusala explained? -------- N: Those outside the dispensation can have wisdom, pa~n~naa, but not the type that understands anattaa, as taught only by Buddhas. Thus, for them, it is a type of pa~n~naa that knows: this is skilful and good, this is not. By this I am hurting myself and others, by this I do not. By this am I enslaved, not free, and by this I am not enslaved. ------ Nina. #126325 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 7:32 am Subject: Re: Dhamma Gym truth_aerator Hello Pt, >pt: Yes, that's true. In instances like those it seems things just >happen and cannot be made to happen. So anatta. Yet in other >instances, it seems things can be made to happen. But if anatta must >hold for both instances, then what is the difference? >>>>============ Yes, in daily life it is more difficult to explain it. We can start with obvious example that we can't directly control the body (One can't make the body eternally young, much taller, etc) by mere wish. Body often goes in undesirable way... One also can't totally control feelings to experience only pleasant, never unpleasant feelings (or other kinds of mental states). Undesirable feelings arise... Also it is possible to bring in talk on conditionality that events happen either due to cause or un-caused. The cause is itself either caused or un-caused. And so on. If one thinks about this, it is hard to imagine some sort of totally free agent sitting and pulling the strings beyond the scenes... Some few ideas.... With best wishes, Alex #126326 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise philofillet Hi Jagkrit > > However, I wonder where is the fine line between substantial thinking vs delirious thinking? What is the criterion we can use as awareness during reading or discussing dhamma which can be self reminder when no one around to keep us in the line? In Abhidhamma isn't "substantial thinking" related to vitekka/vicara? We don't really understand what those terms mean, not really, though we think we do when we read the similes of the bee and the flower or whatever it is. But they are performing their functions (in some way we can't really understand) when there is seeing, hearing etc. So I think studying Abhidhamma and accepting that there are dhammas performing functions is fine, no matter how subtle the dhamma and the function is, but as soon as we get really attracted to a description of how things work, or come across an attractive simile and start to wrap are mind around it to see where it makes sense, the delerious thinking starts, a little. Then there can be conditions for letting go of the conceptual thinking, having gained a little understanding in a fairly detached way, or there can be conditions for getting lost in it, the way, for example, people get lost in speculating about D.O, 3 lifetimes, this moment, blah blah blah. We got lost, our thinking gets deleious. But friends like A.Sujin bring us back to seeing now, hearing now. That's the way I see it, we should approach Dhamma teachngs, touch them, and let go, touch them, and let go, touch them, and let go. But maybe that's just me, perhaps people do indeed develop understanding of the present reality by wrestling to work things out in discussion/debate. Phil #126327 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 11:32 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (10) philofillet Hi Alberto First of all, let me say how great it is that you have become active here again. > I've found it helpful to consider eye-consciousness ... > body-consciousness in terms of a reflection appearing on the surface > of a mirror, something one can't touch or hold, an entirely > different kind of reality than gocara and pasaada ruupas, > the ruupas which inpinge and which are inpinged upon. > > The text goes on comparing the javanas cittas that follow through the mind > door to a monkey grasping one branch after the other. > Well, as I was just writing to Jagkrit, personally I'm a little wary of the similes about deep points, in my opinion they can lock us into incorrect conceptualizations, but that is me, and everyone finds different things helpful. I think the reason the reflection simile can't work for me is that last summer I was sitting by a pond and realized that the tree I saw reflected in the pond was no more real in terms of dhammas than the "actual" tree standing on the shore. So for me reflections represent conceptual objects of consciousness rather than consciousness itself, but again, that is me. As for moving towards understanding eye-consciousness, I like what I wrote a while back: "Right now, a summer insect is singing and to me it seems the characteristic of the sound is what is known, not the hearing. But how is it known? Because there is citta that hears. This sort of thing can be studied and reflected on again and again in daily life in an unforced way if we are fortunate enough not to think it is self-evident..." I am in favour of letting this kind of reflection gradually, every so gradually, become habitual. I think it can or will become habitual, in an unforced way, and this is the only way satipatthana can develop. Of course reflecting on the teachings, on similes in the texts, they help. Different people have different accumulations of lobha so therefore have different paths towards alobha as well... Have a great time at the talks in Poland, wish I could join you. Phil #126328 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise jagkrit2012 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: Dear Nina, all After I read you explanation on delirious thinking, I came across one of the topic that T.A.Sujin gave an example of "Lobha" in Thai discussion group. It is very interesting and may I translate into English as follow: T.A. Sujin: Just a moment Khun Budsabong said that Lobha is a snatcher. At this moment of listening, is there a snatcher? He's already here. Thinking of something else? This is the opportunity of listening dhamma but the snatcher snatches this opportunity. Somebody is thinking about something else or not listening, not hearing. Another thing is more interesting. Just that. The snatcher snatches. Real fast, see? Somebody thinks when we will know characteristic of Namma. The snatcher snatches again. See? We are snatched all the time. When seeing Lobha, we will understand dhamma. He is our close friend (always here). And it is very important if he snatches at the last moment of our life before we leave this world. When Citta is unwholesome, there is no way that Birth Citta which follows Chuti Citta will arise in the world as human or in heaven. Listener: Listening to snatcher, I'm afraid that he will come to snatcher my last opportunity before dying. I'm so furious. T.A.Sujin: That, you've been snatched. Listener: Yes, I'm going to asking whether am I snatched by thinking something like that. And I was. T.A. Sujin: Yes. Very fast. He is good at hiding. Never know where but comes out all the time. Listener: If I would like to see him, I think I've been snatched again over and over? T.A.Sujin: Certainly, therefore, only Panna sees dhamma as real as it is. --------- And come back to my question about delirious thinking. I think I've been snatched already. Anomothana Jagkrit #126329 From: "philip" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 11:44 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) philofillet Dear Group, Pt.2 of Survey of Paramttha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "The Atthasaalinii states that citta is called 'mind' (mano) because it determines and knows an object (aarammana or aalambana). The word 'object' or 'aarammana' means that which is known by 'citta'. When citta (the dhamma that experiences) arises, it congnises what is called an 'object.'" (53) (end of passage) Ph: Is the citta that arises conditioned by a previously arisen object, or do they arise together by conascence paccaya or something like that, or it depends case by case? Phil #126330 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise jagkrit2012 Hi Phil Phil: In Abhidhamma isn't "substantial thinking" related to vitekka/vicara? We don't really understand what those terms mean, not really, though we think we do when we read the similes of the bee and the flower or whatever it is. ----------- JJ: I'm sorry to use the word "substanial thinking" without clarification. What I mean is "wholesome thinking". When Vitakka Cetasikka arises with others including Citta, then it performs fuction of thinking in mind door. The object of thinking, however, can be any thing including idea and concept (Pannatti). And the idea or concept, explaining reality eventhough it is Pannatti not reality itself, can bring us more understanding toward reality. That is my understanding of wholesome thinking. ------------ Phil: So I think studying Abhidhamma and accepting that there are dhammas performing functions is fine, no matter how subtle the dhamma and the function is, but as soon as we get really attracted to a description of how things work, or come across an attractive simile and start to wrap are mind around it to see where it makes sense, the delerious thinking starts, a little. Then there can be conditions for letting go of the conceptual thinking, having gained a little understanding in a fairly detached way, or there can be conditions for getting lost in it, the way, for example, people get lost in speculating about D.O, 3 lifetimes, this moment, blah blah blah. We got lost, our thinking gets deleious. But friends like A.Sujin bring us back to seeing now, hearing now. ---------------- JJ: Your explanation above clarifies this issue very well. Along the way of learning and studying dhamma, delirious thinking always arises by previous accumulations and conditions. I think we can do nothing about that as Nina mentioned earlier. Only understanding even "little understanding in a fairly detached way" (As you mention above) may help to lessen delirious thinking. ----------------- Phil: That's the way I see it, we should approach Dhamma teachngs, touch them, and let go, touch them, and let go, touch them, and let go. But maybe that's just me, perhaps people do indeed develop understanding of the present reality by wrestling to work things out in discussion/debate. ------------------- JJ: "Touch them and let go" seems to be questionable to me. Do you mean " more understanding more detachment"? Thank you and Anumothana Jagkrit #126331 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Embarrassment jonoabb Hi pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was wondering what is embarrassment in abhidhamma terms? It seems like there can be fear of wrong-doing somewhere in there, but then I'd think it's mostly just a lot of conceit and dosa? > =============== J: I remember asking AS the same question many years ago, hoping to get some kind of breakdown of the various cetasikas at play. The answer was simple and straightforward: dosa. I would agree that mana plays a large part too, since it is usually (although not necessarily) connected to the fact of someone else knowing something about us. Jon #126332 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 5:57 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) sprlrt Hi Phil, One of the meaning of naama in naama dhammas (citta+cetasikas) is bending, being attracted, (also nibbana, the object of lokuttara kusala magga citta & cetasikas is a naama dhamma, but in the sense of naamana, causing to bend, attracting lokuttara kusala magga cittas + cetasikas upon itself); conversely lokiya citta & cetasikas dhammas bend, are attracted, by their object; kaamaavacara/sense sphere cittas bend towards kaamaavacara objects like visible object and so on. This environment is one of the conditions required for developing pa~n~naa to the level of the first vipassana ~nana, naamaruupa pariccheda, when pa~n~naa becomes able to differentiate, for the briefest of the istants but unequivocally, naama dhammas like seeing from its object, a ruupa dhamma like visible object, as just realities, nothing more and nothing less than that. Alberto > Dear Group, > > Pt.2 of Survey of Paramttha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket > continued: > > "The Atthasaalinii states that citta is called 'mind' (mano) > because it determines and knows an object (aarammana or aalambana). > The word 'object' or 'aarammana' means that which is known by > 'citta'. When citta (the dhamma that experiences) arises, it > congnises what is called an 'object.'" (53) > > (end of passage) > > Ph: Is the citta that arises conditioned by a previously arisen > object, or do they arise together by conascence paccaya or something > like that, or it depends case by case? #126333 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 4, 2012 9:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and pt) - In a message dated 9/4/2012 3:44:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi pt --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was wondering what is embarrassment in abhidhamma terms? It seems like there can be fear of wrong-doing somewhere in there, but then I'd think it's mostly just a lot of conceit and dosa? > =============== J: I remember asking AS the same question many years ago, hoping to get some kind of breakdown of the various cetasikas at play. The answer was simple and straightforward: dosa. --------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yep, that's an element. But also, I think, some wholesome regret for wrongdoing. ----------------------------------------------------- I would agree that mana plays a large part too, since it is usually (although not necessarily) connected to the fact of someone else knowing something about us. -------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes! I think this is a BIG element. It, along with dosa, may be the main differences between mere regret and embarrassment. --------------------------------------------------- Jon ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Gym nilovg Dear Alex, Op 3-sep-2012, om 23:32 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Also it is possible to bring in talk on conditionality that events > happen either due to cause or un-caused. The cause is itself either > caused or un-caused. And so on. If one thinks about this, it is > hard to imagine some sort of totally free agent sitting and pulling > the strings beyond the scenes... ------ N: You wrote a good post about the uncontrollability of body and feelings. But what puzzled me: events happen either due to cause or un-caused.. Whatever arises must have conditions to arise, otherwise it could not arise. All phenomena of our life are conditioned. Nibbaana is the sole unconditioned reality. ---- Nina #126335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 4-sep-2012, om 3:41 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > And come back to my question about delirious thinking. I think I've > been snatched already. ----- N: Thank you for transcribing this passage. I hope you will do more. That is what I like to do as well. I listen to Thai recordings: tape vidayu, and also pakinnaka. This morning, on tape vidayu: someone was wondering whether it is good to read by oneself the suttas. Yes, T.A. said, but the Buddha encouraged Dhamma discussions, and that is why dhamma conversations, sonthana tham, are important, so that one does not go the wrong Path or follows one's own ideas. ------ Nina. #126336 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 1:00 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment philofillet Hi pt, Jon, Howard all This talk about embarassment reminds me of the woman who asked about what was behind her tears at the holy site, A.S said no way for us to know except by speculating. Do you really think a) Abhidhamma classifies embarassment or b) your understanding can determine what constitues it? Without a) being true (which it isn't, right?) you are left with b), which sounds like a recipe for "delerious thinking" galore. (Clearly I'm firmly attached to that phrase!) I guess it's 60% dosa, 30% mana, 5% akusala regret and 5% hiri/otappa, no wait, let's bump the hiri/otappa up 20% and shave 10% each off dosa and mana... I think we should be wary of thinking we can penetrate dhammas to subtle degrees... Phil #126337 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 1:08 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment philofillet Hi again guys >>>>> I think we should be wary of thinking we can penetrate dhammas to subtle degrees. I know no one was claiming this, different topic...I guess... Phil Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > #126338 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 2:17 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment jagkrit2012 Hi Pt, all >Pt: I was wondering what is embarrassment in abhidhamma terms? It seems like there can be fear of wrong-doing somewhere in there, but then I'd think it's mostly just a lot of conceit and dosa? -------------------------- JJ: Embarrassment could be Kusala or Akusala Citta. If embarrassment arises because shame of Akusala, it is Hiri Cetasika, moral shame, which is one of 19 universal Kusala Cetasikas accompaning Kusala Citta. If embarrassment arises because of self what ever it is (such as loose face), it is Akusala Citta. This type of embarrassment brings discomfort with oneself. It is, therefore, Dosa Mula Citta (Citta rooted in aversion) accompaning with 4 universal Akusala Cetasikas adding Dosa and Kukkucca (worry) Cetasikas. Mana Cetasika (conceit or pride) does not arise in Dosa Mula Citta. Therefore, there is no Mana in embarrassment moment but Mana Cetasika which is arising with Lobha Mula Citta attaching to self can condition Akusala embarrassment later. Anumothana Jagkrit #126339 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 2:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Gym truth_aerator Dear Nina, Pt, all, Nina, Is your question is about what I've meant? *Phenomenon that arise was either caused or uncaused. If it was caused, then that cause conditions/controls it. If it was uncaused than randomness is not control either. Even if the prior cause was thought "I want this", this cause itself, is it caused or uncaused? In any way, there is no magical control, and "law of excluded middle" rejects third alternative to (1. cause 2. no cause). Deterministic chain of cause->effect is not Self Controlling realities, and neither is random events can count as control. Random event just occurs, it was not caused by anything such as personal wish. *it can mean thought, intention, another cause, etc With best wishes, Alex #126340 From: Luraya Lukas Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 3:08 am Subject: awareness by development of understanding luraya87 hej all dhammafriends! ajahn sujins says that we should develop understanding about anatta. see that there is no i, no me. once she told somebody who said "it is not hard to believe, but it is hard to see" that when there is the belief, pa~n~na will be developed because it is so true. but as long as we do not see it we must develop understanding of something that is not experienced. sometimes it feels like if somebody would tell me to just believe and develop the understanding of god and you will see that he exists. (which sounds totally unbelievable to me) ... thank you luraya #126341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) nilovg Dear Phil, thank you for all the quotes, they are useful. Op 4-sep-2012, om 3:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Ph: Is the citta that arises conditioned by a previously arisen > object, or do they arise together by conascence paccaya or > something like that, or it depends case by case? ------ N: When the object is a sense object, a ruupa, it must have arisen before the citta that experiences it. Ruupa lasts longer than citta. I quote from "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" (talks in Cambodia): < He taught that at the moment of seeing visible object, of hearing sound, of smelling odour, of tasting flavour and of touching tangible object, that in all those cases the rpa which is sense object arises before the citta which experiences it. The rpa which arises previously to the citta which experiences it is prenascence condition (purejta paccaya) for that citta. A rpa which is a sense object impinges on the relevant sense-base, but it is not immediately experienced by citta which is sense-cognition, such as seeing or hearing. When a sense object impinges on a sense-base, there are bhavanga-cittas before a sense-door process of cittas begins and a sense-cognition such as seeing or hearing can arise and experience the object which is impinging. When we consider the relation between seeing-consciousness and visible object which appears through eyes, and the relation between hearing-consciousness and sound which appears through ears, we should remember that the rpa which is the object of citta must arise previously to the citta which experiences it. Thus, that rpa conditions the citta by way of prenascence condition. There are other kinds of objects besides rpa, but when we refer to objects which are prenascence-condition, these are the rpas which are sense-objects appearing through the five sense-doors. For example, in the case of seeing, the rpa which is visible object has arisen before the seeing and impinged on the eyesense, and then seeing-consciousness can arise afterwards. When we consider the true nature of nma and rpa, they should be distinguished from each other. They each arise because of their own conditions. Rpa arises and falls away according to its own conditions. > As to naama being the object, when a cetasika such as feeling or dosa is the object of citta, the feeling or dosa has fallen away before the citta which takes that as object. Thus, these realities have arisen and fallen away. But in a following process citta can take them as an object. Consider this moment: don't you know that there is dosa, or unpleasant feeling? You see that the subject is rather complex. ------ Nina. #126342 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 10:27 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment philofillet Hi Jagkrit, all (Nina and Alberto in the p.s) Your explanation is impressive.( e.g, akusala embarrassment is displeasure wuth oneself, and therefore dosa; no mana with dosa.) Unless soneone steps in with a clarifucation I will assume that what you wrote is direct from Abhidhamma and therefore the uncontestable answer to pt's question. Btw, you reminded us that there is a certain set of kusala dhammas that are found in every kusala moment. Can you remind me what akusala dhammas are found with every akusala moment? The only ones I am sure of are moha and lobha...I stopprd studying Abhidhamma for awhile, how quickly my little bit of book knowledge was lost. Phil p.s I still owe you and Alberto and Nina answers to your helpful replies in another thread, it will have to be later, away for a few days, thanks. #126343 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 11:36 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment jagkrit2012 Hi Phil Phil: Btw, you reminded us that there is a certain set of kusala dhammas that are found in every kusala moment. Can you remind me what akusala dhammas are found with every akusala moment? The only ones I am sure of are moha and lobha...I stopprd studying Abhidhamma for awhile, how quickly my little bit of book knowledge was lost. ----------------- JJ: Kusala dhammas which accompany every Akusala Citta are called Mochatuka (set of 4 Akusala Cetasikas led by Moha). This set includes: 1. Moha Cetasika : ignorance 2. Ahirika Cetasika : not shame to Akusala dhamma 3. Anottapa Cetasika : not fear to Akusala dhamma 4. Uddhacca Cetasika : restlessness Anumothana Jagkrit #126344 From: "philip" Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Embarrassment philofillet Thank you Jagkrit Ah yes, of course, moha and dosa, or moha and lobha, or moha without either of the akusala roots - lobha and dosa cannot arise together. Phil #126345 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 12:51 pm Subject: Ten Volition 1 - Intimidation and doors ashkenn2k Dear all Expositors pg 109 to pg 111 <> KC #126346 From: Ken O Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 1:29 pm Subject: Ten Volition 1 - Intimidation and doors 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Expositor pg 111 to 112 <> KC #126347 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] awareness by development of understanding nilovg Dear Luraya, Op 4-sep-2012, om 19:08 heeft Luraya Lukas het volgende geschreven: > once she told somebody who said "it is not hard to believe, but it > is hard to see" that when there is the belief, pa~n~na will be > developed because it is so true. > but as long as we do not see it we must develop understanding of > something that is not experienced. sometimes it feels like if > somebody would tell me to just believe and develop the > understanding of god and you will see that he exists. (which sounds > totally unbelievable to me) ------- N: The word belief could mislead some people. It stands for the Pali saddhaa, and it is actually confidence in kusala. It is not blind belief or following a teacher. Text Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 140: .: Its characteristic is having faith, or its characteristic is trusting. N: As to the characteristic of having faith, the Tiika adds that it is confidence in an object worthy of confidence ((saddheyyavatthuno). This will be further explained with reference to the proximate cause. Text Vis.: Its function is to clarify, like a water-clearing gem, or its function is to enter into, like the setting out across a flood (cf. Sn. 184). N: The Expositor (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 119) states about saddha: <... It has purifying or aspiring as its characteristic.... Text Vis.: It is manifested as non-fogginess. Vis. text: Its proximate cause is something to have faith in. N: The Tiika explains: the Triple Gem, kamma and its fruit are objects of confidence. As understanding develops, confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha grows. When one develops right understanding and reaches stages of insight, there is direct understanding of kamma and vipaaka and one becomes firmly convinced of the truth that kamma brings its appropriate result. Text Vis: or its proximate cause is the things beginning with hearing the Good Dhamma (saddhamma) that constitute the factors of stream- entry.[63] Note 63 taken from the Tiika: The four factors of stream entry (see S.v,347) are waiting on good men, hearing the Good Dhamma, wise attention, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Again they are: absolute confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of noble virtue (S.v,343). N: The sotaapanna has unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem, and he is endowed with ariyan virtue. He cannot transgress the five precepts and he cannot commit akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. ------ N: Thus, confidence in the Dhamma begins with association with the right friend and listening to the Dhamma. When we understand that the Path is the development of understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment, our confidence in the Buddhas teaching of satipa.t.thaana grows. (end quote) --------- Thus, when you verify for yourself that even a little understanding of realities such as seeing that experiences what is visible, different from thinking about persons or things, confidence grows and one will have more courage to continue developing more understanding of whatever reality appears. As understanding grows also confidence grows, until it is very firm and establiched. The sotaapanna has an unshakable confidence in the dhamma, confidence has become a "power", bala. ------- Nina. #126348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 5, 2012 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Gym nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-sep-2012, om 18:26 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Deterministic chain of cause->effect is not Self Controlling > realities, and neither is random events can count as control. > Random event just occurs, it was not caused by anything such as > personal wish. -------- N: I did not quite understand your post. When you say: something happens at random, even that has conditions, only, we do not see which conditions. ------ Nina. #126349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 12:12 am Subject: The Sea of Concepts, 4. nilovg Dear friends, The Sea of Concepts, 4. Q: How can we know the experience of hardness and hardness? Sujin: When hardness appears. Everybody knows hardness. Sati may arise after the experience of hardness by body-consciousness. Body- consciousness knows hardness, and after the body-door process is over, bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum) arise, and then hardness is experienced through the mind-door. Now we know hardness by thinking about it, and we are in the sea of names, of images. However, when sati arises it knows the characteristic of hardness (N: as only a kind of ruupa). That characteristic does not change when sati arises, it is as usual. When sati-sampaja~n~na arises it knows what appears as it is. At that moment there is nothing other than the reality that appears and the idea of self gradually decreases. Very gradually we can understand the true nature of what appears. Even at this moment of listening there can be conditions to gradually understand what we hear, to understand what appears as it really is. Understanding can only develop little by little, because there were many lives with ignorance. We are in the sea of ignorance and there is no island when satipa.t.thaana does not arise. When it does not arise how can we be freed from the flood of ignorance? Only through understanding. ------- Nina. #126350 From: "epsteinrob" Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 12:47 am Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Meanwhile you could get the link to my "Conditions". It is like an > intro. See Alan's web Zolag, or if any troubvle I send it as an > attachment. Or I see that you have got it? Hi Nina. I did find "Conditions" in the Wisdom Library online. Of course, the first thing I did was check on the conditions for jhana! :-))) Best, Rob E. ============================ #126351 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 1:03 am Subject: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob E, > Op 22-aug-2012, om 4:06 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > Rob E: Keeping in mind that the Buddha never said that only one > > citta can exist at a time, > ------ > N: Each citta experiences an object, seeing experiences colour and > hearing experiences sound. Can they arise at the same time? That > would be very strange. > -------- > > R: or that the previous one has to fall away completely, it is up > > to the Abhidhamma writers and commentators to explain why such a > > situation is necessary and also how it takes place. I don't think > > it's very reasonable to be expected to swallow such a parodox that > > is not even explained, and that is corollary to the Buddha's > > teachings, but not spoken about in sutta. > > > ------- > N: I wonder whether I can add something that may help? I try: > disappearance helps us to understand that the absence of the > conditioning dhamma does not mean that it never was. Disappearance- > condition also refers to the condition whereby the citta that has > fallen away conditions the arising of the next citta. The word > disappearance helps us to understand that the preceding citta, which > is the conditioning dhamma, after it has reached its cessation > moment, gives the opportunity for the arising of the subsequent > citta, the conditioned dhamma, without any interval. As we have seen > (Ch 5), each moment of citta can be divided into three extremely > short periods: the moment of its arising, the moment of its presence > and the moment of its cessation. The preceding citta must have > reached its cessation moment so as to condition the subsequent citta > since only one citta arises at a time. > That is certainly helpful - I enjoy as much detail about this as I can get! I would love to see something even more specific. I guess this is one case where there is no sub-sub-commentary to give the whole situation? :-) In addition, I am especially wondering how the next citta, conditioned by the first one falling away, can be conditioned to arise with all the former accumulations, after the other has fallen away. If it was like a domino that was "hit" by the preceding citta "as" it was falling away, I could understand. Then it would be apparent that if the first domino falls to the left, it is going to push the next domino also to the left. That would explain how the accumulations in the next citta match the ones from the former citta. But if it has fallen away completely then the first domino never touches the second domino. So how does the second citta get all those accumulations that have already gone away completely with the first citta? If you were to tell me that there is a force or energy that is propelled by the falling-away citta and shapes the new citta as it comes up, that would also make sense. It just seems that there has to be *something* that causes those accumulations and tendencies to re-arise with each next citta. Thanks for anything you can say about this. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #126352 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Gym truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, I will try to rephrase what I've said. I was talking how idea of Free Will is difficult with conditionality. Either something is caused or it is uncaused. Neither determinism nor indeterminism makes much sense. If something is caused, then it is like one domino falling causing next one to fall. If something is uncaused (random) then there was no prior cause to cause it (such as will of "Atta"). Some can say that cause of "choice" is Self. But what is cause of this Self reacting in such a way and making such rather than different choice? And so on we go with "was this caused or uncaused"? With best wishes, Alex #126353 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 6, 2012 6:18 pm Subject: The Sea of concepts 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Sea of concepts 5. How many lives have passed until now, or even how many moments have passed from childhood until now that we are searching only for seeing colour that appears just for a short moment and then falls away; or only for hearing sound that appears just for a short moment and then falls away. It is the same for smelling odour, tasting flavour and experiencing tangible object, everything appears just for a short moment and then falls away, there is nothing left. Before being born as this person was there a self? From the first day of our life until adulthood, until now, we have the idea of self. In our life there are different events, happy or unhappy, and we think that when we depart from this world we shall regret it to leave the things we had in this life. However, we can consider our life more deeply. Although we shall depart from this life at the end of our life, this is the same as in a previous life when we were not yet born into this life. We did not have the things we have now and, thus, no regret. Each life is like this, there is nothing left except realities that arise and fall away according to conditions. Because of ignorance there is atta-sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self, just remembrance. ******* Nina. #126354 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise philofillet Hi Jagkrit > JJ: I'm sorry to use the word "substanial thinking" without clarification. What I mean is "wholesome thinking". When Vitakka Cetasikka arises with others including Citta, then it performs fuction of thinking in mind door. The object of thinking, however, can be any thing including idea and concept (Pannatti). And the idea or concept, explaining reality eventhough it is Pannatti not reality itself, can bring us more understanding toward reality. That is my understanding of wholesome thinking. Ph: That sounds good. Also interesting that the object of thinking can be the nimitta, that fleeting photocopy of the reality that has fallen away so quickly. Or should I say it is *always* of the nimitta rather than the reality itself? It doesn't matter though, that's just the way it works. We can read the texts or hear from a trusted friend that that is the way it works. If we try to capture it for ourselves, more lobha, more wrong view, more delerious thinking. > > Phil: That's the way I see it, we should approach Dhamma teachngs, touch them, and let go, touch them, and let go, touch them, and let go. But maybe that's just me, perhaps people do indeed develop understanding of the present reality by wrestling to work things out in discussion/debate. > ------------------- > > JJ: "Touch them and let go" seems to be questionable to me. Do you mean " more understanding more detachment"? Ph: Understanding with more detachment, yes, I guess that's it. I just feel personally that if there isn't understanding of a teaching naturally, when we hear about it, understanding isn't ready for it, there are not conditions for it, and we should not try and try and discuss and discuss and debate and debate to figure it out, that is a practice that is rooted in a kind of wrong view as other practices are, it is going against conditions by forcing things. Of course we know that hearing the teachings from a Dhamma friend is one of the conditions for panna, but I think we overestimate the value of discussing our way to proper understanding. We hear about a teacher, consider it briefly, and sometimes a light goes on, and mostly it doesn't. And usually in my case the understanding, the light that goes on, doesn't stick. There's no benefit from struggling against that, fighting it. But that is just my long-held hunch. I've been at DSG for years and years but have never stuck to one point to try to figure it out through discussion. That means that Nina and others have had to repeat teachings to me many times, but I think that is best for me and not bad for them since sharing the Dhamma is a deed of merit. Scott, who is missing (hopefully to return) dismissed my thinking above, I rememeber, saying it was kind of a superstitious approach to developing panna, I can't recall, I would talk of my "baby panna" not being ready for something and he would be like, psshaw! (as in, "that's silly!" Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But as you say, more understanding *with detachment* If we are struggling to understand something, how can there be detachment? Maybe we can use the meditators favourite attempt at justification, "kusala chanda." But as with all forms of kusala, kusala chanda is much much rarer than we might like to think. Phil > > Thank you and Anumothana > > Jagkrit > #126355 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 8:59 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) philofillet Hello Alberto > > One of the meaning of naama in naama dhammas (citta+cetasikas) is bending, > being attracted, (also nibbana, the object of lokuttara kusala magga > citta & cetasikas is a naama dhamma, but in the sense of naamana, causing to bend, > attracting lokuttara kusala magga cittas + cetasikas upon itself); > conversely lokiya citta & cetasikas dhammas bend, are attracted, by their object; > kaamaavacara/sense sphere cittas bend towards kaamaavacara objects like visible > object and so on. Thank you. Naama bending, and (as I've heard) ruupa molested. Makes it sound like a crowded Tokyo train. But the way my mind works, the images will stick. Phil #126356 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) philofillet Dear Nina > thank you for all the quotes, they are useful. > Op 4-sep-2012, om 3:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > > > Ph: Is the citta that arises conditioned by a previously arisen > > object, or do they arise together by conascence paccaya or > > something like that, or it depends case by case? > ------ > N: When the object is a sense object, a ruupa, it must have arisen > before the citta that experiences it. Ruupa lasts longer than citta. > I quote from "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" (talks in Cambodia): A wonderfully clear explantion followed, thank you. Phil #126357 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 9:57 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) sprlrt Hi Phil, P: Naama bending, and (as I've heard) ruupa molested. Another meaning, the main one, of naama in naama dhammas (citta+cetasikas) is that they can name/make names, i.e. create pa~n~natti, concepts; in other words they are able to make up their own objects (like 'seeing' while dreaming). Alberto #126358 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 11:05 pm Subject: travels and catching up sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Just to apologize for the silence..... we've been on trips with my mother in Northern Europe en route to Poland on Sunday with very little internet access. Looking forward to meeting Lukas, Luraya and everyone on Sunday. How are you feeling Lukas? Just more dhammas as usual of course, more stories and forgetting about seeing and visible object most the time. Meanwhile catching up with reading when we can and appreciating all the threads. Luraya, Achan Sujin will really appreciate all your good qus too. Metta Sarah ====== #126359 From: "philip" Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 11:06 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (11) aarammana (object of citta) philofillet Hi again Alberto You have a gift for summarizing/explaining points ftom the texts in a clear, concise way, thanks. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > P: Naama bending, and (as I've heard) ruupa molested. > > Another meaning, the main one, of naama in naama dhammas (citta+cetasikas) is that they can name/make names, i.e. create pa~n~natti, concepts; in other words they are able to make up their own objects (like 'seeing' while dreaming). > > Alberto > #126360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 7, 2012 11:10 pm Subject: The Sea of Concepts, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The Sea of Concepts, no 6. Questioner: Acharn speaks about the six worlds, appearing through the eyes, the ears and the other sense-doors. Seeing sees through the eye- door. This seems very ordinary, very common to me. Sujin: This is an explanation in brief. There is a reality, a naama- dhamma that sees. Question: What is the difference between naama and ruupa? Sujin: One should listen to the Dhamma again and again. There is a reality that does not know anything such as hardness or sweetness; these do not know anything. There are realities such as thinking, happiness, sorrow or hearing; these are realities that experience something, different from hardness or sweetness. Question: Is it useful to know this? Sujin: Mostly people ask what the use is of knowing this. What do we want to know? We wish to see. Is it useful to know the truth of seeing? We wish to see but we do not know that it arises and falls away. It is not we who are seeing and what appears through eyesense disappears immediately, it does not return. We are hearing sound, and before it appeared there was no sound. Then sound appears and disappears. Is it useful to know this? If we do not know the truth we are searching for sound, we cling to sound and we suffer because of sound. We are very absorbed in the sense objects and we do not know the cause of suffering. We search for beautiful visible object, pleasing sound, fragrant odour, delicious flavour or agreeable tactile object. The more we cling and search for these objects, the more there will be dukkha, suffering, when we do not get what we want. The six worlds appearing through the six doorways are not different from naama and ruupa. We have eyes, ears and the other senses and experience objects through the senses every day, we need these objects every day and we cling every day. If we would not cling we would be more at ease. We will be at ease in accordance as pa~n~naa lets go until ignorance is abandoned. --------- Nina. #126361 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 11:26 am Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E (126229) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > >> Immediately after the cessation stage of a thought-moment there results the genesis stage of the subsequent thought-moment. Thus each unit of consciousness perishes conditioning another, transmitting at the same time all its potentialities to its successor. There is, therefore, a continuous flow of consciousness like a stream without any interruption. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > Hoping you find this worthy of consideration :-)) > > Rob E: Thanks, Jon, I think it's excellent. It doesn't explain the micro-moment in which the falling away and then transmission take place, but it's a very good start for me to see the sequence a little more clearly. > =============== J: Glad you find it useful. (However, I could not find this passage in Bhikkhu Bodhi's revision of Ven. Naarada's translation, published as CMA). > =============== > Rob E: The image of the continuous stream gives a sense that there really is a connection between citta a and citta b, similar to the crest and then flattening of a wave which gives rise to the next wave. While you could say that the wave is "completely fallen away," it's energy and force is not lost but transmitted to the creation of the next wave. Perhaps something like that takes place - seems likely. > =============== J: Regarding the idea that citta A's energy and force is transmitted to the creation of citta B, the *creation* of citta B is not something that citta A has any role in. As previously explained, the conditioning relationship exists by virtue of the fact that the falling away of one citta allows the next citta, whatever citta that may be, to arise. But the type and composition of that succeeding citta is conditioned by other paccaya (conditioning factors) than the falling away of the preceding citta. As I understand the situation, neither force nor flavour is transmitted, but merely accumulated *latent* tendencies, etc. Jon #126362 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 11:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment jonoabb Hi Howard (126333) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and pt) - > > In a message dated 9/4/2012 3:44:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi pt > > --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ > (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I was wondering what is embarrassment in abhidhamma terms? It seems like > there can be fear of wrong-doing somewhere in there, but then I'd think > it's mostly just a lot of conceit and dosa? > > =============== > > J: I remember asking AS the same question many years ago, hoping to get > some kind of breakdown of the various cetasikas at play. > > The answer was simple and straightforward: dosa. > --------------------------------------------------- > HCW: > Yep, that's an element. But also, I think, some wholesome regret for > wrongdoing. > =============== J: Well I think that was my own view at the time, but I now appreciate that wholesome regret for wrongdoing (otappa?) would not condition the feeling of discomfort that is the hallmark of embarrassment. Jon #126363 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for understanding to arise jagkrit2012 Hi Phil Ph: Understanding with more detachment, yes, I guess that's it. I just feel personally that if there isn't understanding of a teaching naturally, when we hear about it, understanding isn't ready for it, there are not conditions for it, and we should not try and try and discuss and discuss and debate and debate to figure it out, that is a practice that is rooted in a kind of wrong view as other practices are, it is going against conditions by forcing things. --------------- JJ: It is so true. I've been in that situation a lot why trying to understand without any suspicious that self is playing me then. ******************* Ph: Of course we know that hearing the teachings from a Dhamma friend is one of the conditions for panna, but I think we overestimate the value of discussing our way to proper understanding. We hear about a teacher, consider it briefly, and sometimes a light goes on, and mostly it doesn't. And usually in my case the understanding, the light that goes on, doesn't stick. There's no benefit from struggling against that, fighting it. But that is just my long-held hunch. I've been at DSG for years and years but have never stuck to one point to try to figure it out through discussion. That means that Nina and others have had to repeat teachings to me many times, but I think that is best for me and not bad for them since sharing the Dhamma is a deed of merit. ------------------ JJ: I remember that T.A. Sujin always brings us the simile of gripping of a knife handle. When we grip a handle of a knife once or twice or even more, it is hard to notice any wearing away of the handle. Panna is the same. The development of Panna is so slow and as you said the light goes on but doesn't stick. In my opinion, when understanding is still at its minimum, it is hard to get understanding again when facing storm of realities while ignorance we carry for a long long time is still intact. This is why the Lord Buddha emphasized that "Patient" is the key to burn Kilesa or Akusala Dhammas. Without patient, it will be difficult to develop right understanding because Lobha will escort us to the opposite direction. It is therefore very fortunate that while learning dhammas we also have T.A. Sujin, Nina and other noble friends in DSG to contribute good guide of understanding. ***************************** Ph: But as you say, more understanding *with detachment* If we are struggling to understand something, how can there be detachment? Maybe we can use the meditators favourite attempt at justification, "kusala chanda." But as with all forms of kusala, kusala chanda is much much rarer than we might like to think. ----------------------- JJ: I think that if we have even a little right understanding, kusala chanda is also conditioned to arise. In my opinion. it likes you first learn how to use a computer. You develop understanding how to use it at first. When you understand, you will have chanda (interesting) to use it for further benefit. Anumothana Jagkrit #126364 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 1:20 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Sense Bases 1 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126365 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 1:22 pm Subject: Satipatthana 10 - Mental Object - Sense Bases 2 ashkenn2k Dear all Commentary to Satipatthana <> KC #126366 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 1:37 pm Subject: Ten Volition 1 - Intimidation and doors 3 ashkenn2k Dear all Expositors pg 112-113 <> KC #126367 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 2:03 pm Subject: Ten Volition 1 - Intimidation and doors 4 - Speech ashkenn2k Dear all Expositor pg 114 - 116 <> Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 181 <> KC #126368 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 2:11 pm Subject: Ten Volition 1 - Intimidation and doors 4 - Thought ashkenn2k Dear all Expositor pg 116 to 117 <> KC #126369 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) nilovg Dear Rob E, Op 5-sep-2012, om 17:03 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven: > If you were to tell me that there is a force or energy that is > propelled by the falling-away citta and shapes the new citta as it > comes up, that would also make sense. It just seems that there has > to be *something* that causes those accumulations and tendencies to > re-arise with each next citta. ------ N: The dominos are not so helpful, I think. See Jon's explanation about the continuous stream. You wrote; While you could say that the wave is "completely fallen away," it's energy and force is not lost but transmitted to the creation of the next wave. Perhaps something like that takes place - seems likely. N: Let us go into the word force. Intro to Conditional Relations, translated by U Narada: He explains that the conditioning forces inherent in the dhammas cannot exist apart from these dhammas. The force of root-condition inherent in the dhamma of lobha, cannot exist apart from that dhamma. "Guide to Conditional Relations" (by U Narada, a useful book to have): in the context of the force of kamma that produces a result even much later. You can check: what you learnt in youth still has influence upon you. A continuous stream of citta. Cittas do arise and fall away: when there is seeing and then hearing, the seeing has fallen away completely. They each have a different object, a different base, different conditions for their arising. All these things become clearer if you consider this very moment of seeing, hearing, attachment. It does not help to speculate too much on: how can this be? How exactly does it all work? That is thinking about unthinkables and this does not help us to understand the present moment. Nina. #126370 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/7/2012 9:43:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: J: Well I think that was my own view at the time, but I now appreciate that wholesome regret for wrongdoing (otappa?) would not condition the feeling of discomfort that is the hallmark of embarrassment. ============================ It seems to me that embarrassment arises due to a complex of (non-simultaneous) conditions, some wholesome and some not. Would one be embarrassed with regard to a deed if one had no regretful sense at all that it was wrong? I'm just not sure, but I think not. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126371 From: "philip" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 9:36 am Subject: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) philofillet Dear group, Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: "Sound is a reality. When hard things contact each other, it is a condition for the arising of sound. However, when the citta that arises does not experience sound at that moment, sound is not an object. Anything may arise becaues of conditions, but if citta does not experience it, it is not an object (aarammana.) Citta is named 'heart' or 'hadaya' because it is in inward reality. Citta is internal because it is a reality that experiences the obejct that appears. The object is outside; it is that which citta experiences." (54) (end of passage) Ph: If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? Yes. Is it an aarammana? Depends on whether there are conditions for the arising of citta to experience sound at that moment. Re internal and external, I wonder if there are conditions for cittas to recall the internal/external thing that puzzled me earlier this year....nope, can't recall. Something that common sense disagreed with. The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think.... Phil #126372 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 1:28 pm Subject: The site of ancient Kapilavastu thomaslaw03 Dear All, Kapilavastu was the capital of the republic of the Sakyas, and the Buddha's home town. However, there are two historical sites of Kapilavastu. One is located at Tilaurakot in Nepal, the other is at Piprahwa in India. Which one is likely to be recognized as the actual home town of the Buddha? Regards, Thomas Law #126373 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 2:11 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) aungsoeminuk Ph: If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? Yes. Is it an aarammana? Depends on whether there are conditions for the arising of citta to experience sound at that moment. Re internal and external, I wonder if there are conditions for cittas to recall the internal/external thing that puzzled me earlier this year....nope, can't recall. Something that common sense disagreed with. The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think.... Phil > DMR( Dhamma Rakkhita) : Dear Phil, Sarah and all ; There are 6 sense-bases. External and internal in pair. 1. eye-sense-base ( cakkhaayatana ) internal & sight-sense-base ( ruupaayatana ) external 2. ear-sense-base ( sotaayatana ) internal & sound-sense-base ( saddaayatana ) external 3. nose-sense-base ( ghaanayatana ) internal & smell-sense-base ( ghandaayatana ) external & 4. tongue-sense-base ( jivhaayatana ) internal & taste-sense-base ( rasaayatana ) external 5. body-sense-base ( kaayaayatana ) internal & touch-sense-base ( pho.t.thabbaayatana ) external 6. mind-sense-base ( manaayatana ) internal & all-objects-sense-base (dhammaayatana ) external There is no reality outside of these. All internal and external senses can arise as object i.e object of mind. There are conditions for arising. There is a kind of citta that can sense all types of aaramma.na. It is 'manodvaaraavajjana citta' mind-door-adverting consciousness. With Unlimited Metta, Dhamma Rakkhita #126374 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 2:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment aungsoeminuk J: Well I think that was my own view at the time, but I now appreciate > that wholesome regret for wrongdoing (otappa?) would not condition the feeling > of discomfort that is the hallmark of embarrassment. ============================ H: It seems to me that embarrassment arises due to a complex of > (non-simultaneous) conditions, some wholesome and some not. Would one be embarrassed > with regard to a deed if one had no regretful sense at all that it was > wrong? I'm just not sure, but I think not. > With metta, > Howard ================================ DMR _ Dhamma Rakkhita: Dear Jon, Howard, and all.Long time no see no hear. I am old Htoo. Htoo Tint Naing.I was revising Paa.li grammatical texts so that I can surf along Paa.li cannon (the original texts spoken/preached by The Lord Buddha). I do not think regret is wholesome. So regret could not be modified by wholesome. But there may be room to discuss this issue. Regret (kukkucca) is a cetasika or mental factor that gives rise the pure citta to have its name as regret. This is a bit complex and complicated matter. With Unlimited Metta, DMR_ Dhamma Rakkhita ( Htoo Tint Naing ) #126375 From: "aungsoeminuk" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 2:47 pm Subject: Re: The Sea of concepts 5. aungsoeminuk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The Sea of concepts 5. Nina wrote: How many lives have passed until now, or even how many moments have passed from childhood until now that we are searching only for seeing colour that appears just for a short moment and then falls away; or only for hearing sound that appears just for a short moment and then falls away. It is the same for smelling odour, tasting flavour and experiencing tangible object, everything appears just for a short moment and then falls away, there is nothing left. Before being born as this person was there a self? From the first day of our life until adulthood, until now, we have the idea of self. In our life there are different events, happy or unhappy, and we think that when we depart from this world we shall regret it to leave the things we had in this life. However, we can consider our life more deeply. Although we shall depart from this life at the end of our life, this is the same as in a previous life when we were not yet born into this life. We did not have the things we have now and, thus, no regret. Each life is like this, there is nothing left except realities that arise and fall away according to conditions. Because ignorance there is atta-sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self, just remembrance. > ******* > > Nina. > =================================== DMR_ Dhamma Rakkhita ( Htoo Tint Naing ) Dear Nana and all. Thanks a lot to read this very message. Concept of self has to be destroyed. It is needed to destroyed at least partially before we actually go into deep meditation of vipassanaa. Realities arise and immediately fall away. This is true. But there leave many things after vanishing those realities. An object arises. A citta arises simultaneously. That citta is uninterruptedly followed (anantara paccaya) by a series of cittas ( viithi). In that series are cittas whose functions are sensing or feeling on the object. It is javana citta or running-through-consciousness. There can arise 3 kinds of javana cittas. 1. I like it (Lobha citta). It capitalised as raagaanusaya or potential to arise lobha at a later time. 2. I do not like it (Dosa citta). It lays dormant as pa.tighaanusaya or potential to arise dosa at a later time. 3. I do not know I like it or I do not like it(Moha citta). It leads to potential to arise moha at a later time( avijjaanusaya). "Cakkhum ca rupe ca ---- anuseti." So after vanishing of ruupa and naama there leave anuusaya until the object is truely meditated by vijjaa or vipassanaa pa~n~naa. With Unlimited Metta, DMR_ Dhamma Rakkhita ( Htoo Tint Naing ) #126376 From: Kalpa Bs Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The site of ancient Kapilavastu kapilabs Dear Thomas., actually india & nepal both would be like to have Kapilawastu in their own country despite the truth. So it'll not be easy to find where was it. But it's not so important for buddhists because what the Buddha said us is to go & see the 4 places where he born, enlightened, preached at 1st & ceased. ------------------------------ On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 8:58 AM IST thomaslaw03 wrote: >Dear All, > >Kapilavastu was the capital of the republic of the Sakyas, and the Buddha's home town. However, there are two historical sites of Kapilavastu. One is located at Tilaurakot in Nepal, the other is at Piprahwa in India. Which one is likely to be recognized as the actual home town of the Buddha? > >Regards, > >Thomas Law > #126377 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 4:20 pm Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Regarding the idea that citta A's energy and force is transmitted to the creation of citta B, the *creation* of citta B is not something that citta A has any role in. As previously explained, the conditioning relationship exists by virtue of the fact that the falling away of one citta allows the next citta, whatever citta that may be, to arise. But the type and composition of that succeeding citta is conditioned by other paccaya (conditioning factors) than the falling away of the preceding citta. > > As I understand the situation, neither force nor flavour is transmitted, but merely accumulated *latent* tendencies, etc. How are they transmitted, after the previous citta has completely fallen away? Where do they come from to be reinstated in the next succeeding citta? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #126378 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 5:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "aungsoeminuk" > ================================ > DMR _ Dhamma Rakkhita: Dear Jon, Howard, and all.Long time no see no hear. I am old Htoo. Htoo Tint Naing.I was revising Paa.li grammatical texts so that I can surf along Paa.li cannon (the original texts spoken/preached by The Lord Buddha). > >> With Unlimited Metta, > > DMR_ Dhamma Rakkhita ( Htoo Tint Naing ) > How wonderful to read you again Htoo!! I have often wondered where you were and what you were doing. with metta Christine #126379 From: "Kalpa" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 4:06 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) kapilabs Dear phil., There're 3 things need to generate a chitta(vinnana, mano). 1. Healthy organ to exist(eye, ear,.. etc). 2. Relevant Object to come on the path of organ. 3. Attention of object. So, the fact need to come on the path of mind & to give attention to it are the conditions for recalling. Then it also depends on ones "sati" (ability to remind <...> > Ph: If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? Yes. Is it an aarammana? Depends on whether there are conditions for the arising of citta to experience sound at that moment. > > Re internal and external, I wonder if there are conditions for cittas to recall the internal/external thing that puzzled me earlier this year....nope, can't recall. Something that common sense disagreed with. The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think.... > > Phil <...> #126380 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Phil, >________________________________ > From: philip >Pt.II of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket continued: > >"Sound is a reality. When hard things contact each other, it is a condition for the arising of sound. However, when the citta that arises does not experience sound at that moment, sound is not an object. Anything may arise becaues of conditions, but if citta does not experience it, it is not an object (aarammana.) > >Citta is named 'heart' or 'hadaya' because it is in inward reality. Citta is internal because it is a reality that experiences the obejct that appears. The object is outside; it is that which citta experiences." (54) > >(end of passage) > >Ph: If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? Yes. Is it an aarammana? Depends on whether there are conditions for the arising of citta to experience sound at that moment. ... S: Right. ... > >Re internal and external, I wonder if there are conditions for cittas to recall the internal/external thing that puzzled me earlier this year....nope, can't recall. Something that common sense disagreed with. The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think.... ... S: You are thinking of the inner and outer ayatanas. Cittas are 'innermost', the inner ayatanas (manayatana) and cetasikas, (along with subtle rupas and nibbana) are outer ayatana (dhammayatana). There are many different classifications and meanings of 'inner', 'internal' and 'external'. So, as usual, it depends on the context. Will be leaving in the next couple of hours for Helsinki airport where we'll see my mother off, back to England and will be meeting the Thai group. Just as we were coming back to our hotel last night after a day trip to Estonia, Jon tripped and sprained his ankle so he's now trying to book a wheel-chair! Anything can happen anytime, but whatever happens, just the meeting of ayatanas, the meeting of dhammas. For body-consciousness to arise, must be the body-sense (inner ayatana), tangible object (outer ayatana), 7 cetasikas (outer ayatana). Spoke to Lukas this morning who'll be meeting everyone at different times at Warsaw airport beginning with Ann, Alberto, Gabi and then all of us. Let's see what vipaka, what kusala, akusala, kiriya dhammas arise. Lots of stories, but only ever the present meeting of ayatanas, like the conditioned dhammas balancing on the needle point. Metta Sarah ==== #126381 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) sarahprocter... Dear Kalpa (?), Welcome to DSG! Pls introduce yourself a little if you feel inclined to do so. Where do you live? ________________________________ > From: Kalpa >There're 3 things need to generate a chitta(vinnana, mano). >1. Healthy organ to exist(eye, ear,.. etc). >2. Relevant Object to come on the path of organ. >3. Attention of object. >So, the fact need to come on the path of mind & to give attention to it are the conditions for recalling. >Then it also depends on ones "sati" (ability to remind ... S: Good point - there must be the sense base, object and manasikara arising in order for citta to experience the object. These factors are given in the suttas. Of course, there must be sanna to mark the object, contact and other mental factors. Sati only arises if it's a sobhana citta, like a wholesome (kusala) recalling of the object. Usually it's not. Look forward to more discussions with you and everyone after we're settled in Poland. Pls remember to sign off with your (preferably real) name, so we know how to address you. Thanks in advance Metta Sarah ======= #126382 From: "Kalpa" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 7:55 pm Subject: Re: The Sea of concepts 5. kapilabs Dear Nina., Actually 'ignorance' is a main cause of our existance by mean of not knowing(moha). We're "not able to see" through things as they're because of ignorance(not knowing). So the most closer cause of existance is "not able to seen" is the real meaning of AVIJJA, & not the ignorance. Because the pali word of "Vijjamana" means "able to seen" or "visible" & the avijja is opposite of it which means "not able to seen" that is "invisibility". The word avijja has given nearly critically wrong meaning so by initial translatars unwittingly. The perfect cause of this suffering existance is avijja means "INVISIBILITY" of things as they're & not the ignorance..! So far I found that many of such "vital & deep" key words in dhamma are misinterpreted initially by translatars. I saw this's as the DISAPPEARENCE of dhamma. Because no one will attain nibbana without having known proper meanings of those vital key words.! Dhamma has already begun to fed out from the world becaue of Ignorance & Invisibility..!!! - > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > The Sea of concepts 5. > > Nina wrote: > > How many lives have passed until now, or even how many moments have passed from childhood until now that we are searching only for seeing colour that appears just for a short moment and then falls away; or only for hearing sound that appears just for a short moment and then falls away. It is the same for smelling odour, tasting flavour and experiencing tangible object, everything appears just for a short moment and then falls away, there is nothing left. > > Before being born as this person was there a self? From the first day of our life until adulthood, until now, we have the idea of self. In our life there are different events, happy or unhappy, and we think > that when we depart from this world we shall regret it to leave the > things we had in this life. However, we can consider our life more > deeply. Although we shall depart from this life at the end of our > life, this is the same as in a previous life when we were not yet > born into this life. We did not have the things we have now and, > thus, no regret. Each life is like this, there is nothing left except realities that arise and fall away according to conditions. Because > ignorance there is atta-sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self, just > remembrance. <...> #126383 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 9/9/2012 2:20:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Jon. --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , "jonoabb" wrote: > J: Regarding the idea that citta A's energy and force is transmitted to the creation of citta B, the *creation* of citta B is not something that citta A has any role in. As previously explained, the conditioning relationship exists by virtue of the fact that the falling away of one citta allows the next citta, whatever citta that may be, to arise. But the type and composition of that succeeding citta is conditioned by other paccaya (conditioning factors) than the falling away of the preceding citta. > > As I understand the situation, neither force nor flavour is transmitted, but merely accumulated *latent* tendencies, etc. How are they transmitted, after the previous citta has completely fallen away? Where do they come from to be reinstated in the next succeeding citta? ---------------------------------------------------------- HCW: This is one perspective from which Nagarjuna gave a critique, founded on the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, of the reification of dhammas, i.e., of the idea of dhammas being separate realities with substantial, own being. If each is a thing-of-its-own, with self, the problem is a genuine one. The first line of Nagarjuna's primary work is the following: "1. No thing anywhere is ever born from itself, from something else, from both or without a cause." BTW, this is a work that truly needs commentary for understanding it. I think a superb presentation is that of Garfield's: _http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/019\ 5093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=boo ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1347190968&sr=1-1&keywords=Garfield+%2B+The+Middle+Way_ (http://www.amazon.com/Fundamental-Wisdom-Middle-Way-Mulamadhyamakakarika/dp/019\ 5 093364/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347190968&sr=1-1&keywords=Garfield+++ The+Middle+Way) ---------------------------------------------------------- Best, Rob E. ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #126384 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) nilovg Dear Phil, Op 9-sep-2012, om 1:36 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > The vinnana(?) consciousness is internal but the accompanying > cetasikas are external, something like that? There will be > conditions for Sarah to recall the point, I think ------- N: Manwhile I could add something. I used to find this difficult too. This is about the inner ayaatanas and the outer ayaatanas. Citta has as function clearly to know an object, it is the leader in knowing an object. The cetasikas which arise and accompany citta each perform their own function, they are entirely different from citta. This is made clear in the following quote also from SPD: < The bhavanga-citta which is vipkacitta is not involved in outward objects and hence akusala cetasikas do not accompany it. Here it is obvious that the citta is luminous and pure. But also when it is accompanied by defilements, the citta itself is different from the defilements, its nature is pure, pandara. The Atthaslin, in the same section, states: "Though immoral, it is called 'clear' (pandara) because it issues [from subconscious vital functions] just as a tributary of the Ganges is like the Ganges and a tributary of the Godhvar is like the Godhvar." Even when citta is accompanied by defilements, it does not lose its natural purity, just as the water of a tributary is like the water of the main river. Citta just clearly knows an object. > Thus, citta is entirely different from cetasika although cetasikas accompany it. I pondered over this passage many, many times and I find it clarifies. Nina. #126385 From: Ken O Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) ashkenn2k Dear Rob E >That is certainly helpful - I enjoy as much detail about this as I can get! I would love to see something even more specific. I guess this is one case where there is no sub-sub-commentary to give the whole situation? :-) > >In addition, I am especially wondering how the next citta, conditioned by the first one falling away, can be conditioned to arise with all the former accumulations, after the other has fallen away. > >If it was like a domino that was "hit" by the preceding citta "as" it was falling away, I could understand. Then it would be apparent that if the first domino falls to the left, it is going to push the next domino also to the left. That would explain how the accumulations in the next citta match the ones from the former citta. But if it has fallen away completely then the first domino never touches the second domino. So how does the second citta get all those accumulations that have already gone away completely with the first citta? > >If you were to tell me that there is a force or energy that is propelled by the falling-away citta and shapes the new citta as it comes up, that would also make sense. It just seems that there has to be *something* that causes those accumulations and tendencies to re-arise with each next citta. KC: The "live force" which is an universal cetasika of citta will continue to cause the next citta to arise as long as the it is not cut off. It does not need to touch, just like kamma that condition the rebirth linking citta after the cuti citta. The only explanation I have is there are unviersal cittas like perceptionsa, feeling and kamma are unviversal in all conditioned cittas and they accutemulated. So if a situation like an object like a Buddha image, due to accumulations in perceptions, kamma, and feelings, it could condition the arising of kusala cittas in the javana cittas. Then the questions is how the accumuation of panna which is not an universal cittas could arise since this accumulaton of this panna should have disappear when it ceases, and yet it could still arise when panna arise. That I have no explanation. For akusala there are latencies, for kusala, I have yet not find text that there is the equivalent like latenices to akusala. I hope one day someone would translate Yamaka and Patthana and more importantly their commentaries as I have an instinct that there are important information in both the texts to complete the whole picture of how dhamma really connect with each other. Thank you KC #126386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Sea of concepts 5. nilovg Dear Kalpa, thank you for your contribution. Op 9-sep-2012, om 11:55 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > So far I found that many of such "vital & deep" key words in dhamma > are misinterpreted initially by translatars. I saw this's as the > DISAPPEARENCE of dhamma. Because no one will attain nibbana without > having known proper meanings of those vital key words.! Dhamma has > already begun to fed out from the world becaue of Ignorance & > Invisibility..!!! ------- N: Different translators prefer to use different words. More important than the words we use is knowing the characteristics of the realities that appear. Avijjaa, or moha, actually: not seeing things as they really are. It is not easy to clearly know its characteristic when it appears. It is the opposite of right understanding, seeing things as they are. For example, we believe that we can see persons, how deluded we are. But when there can be right awareness and right understanding of seeing appearing now, we begin to know the difference between seeing and thinking of concepts. It is just a beginning of understanding. A little less avijjaa. ------ Nina. #126387 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Sea of concepts 5. nilovg Dear Htoo, So good to read you again. Op 9-sep-2012, om 6:47 heeft aungsoeminuk het volgende geschreven: > Concept of self has to be destroyed. It is needed to destroyed at > least partially before we actually go into deep meditation of > vipassanaa. ------- N: As you agree, only the sotaapanna destroys the idea of self. But we can begin now, at this very moment of seeing, hearing, like, dislike. We can very, very gradually learn that these are dhammas, conditioned dhammas and not under the control of a self. If there is no beginning now, in our daily life, while doing chores in the house, sometimes very dirty chores, we can never, never make it. A bad odour is real, it has conditions to arise. It can be known as just a dhamma. That is daily life. So important to understand daily life. Otherwise we are lost. Nina. #126388 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 9/7/2012 9:43:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > J: Well I think that was my own view at the time, but I now appreciate > that wholesome regret for wrongdoing (otappa?) would not condition the feeling > of discomfort that is the hallmark of embarrassment. > ============================ > It seems to me that embarrassment arises due to a complex of > (non-simultaneous) conditions, some wholesome and some not. Would one be embarrassed > with regard to a deed if one had no regretful sense at all that it was > wrong? I'm just not sure, but I think not. > =============== J: Well, I would say that one can be embarrassed without thinking one has done wrong, and obviously without there being any kusala of any kind. For example, you were unable to remember a name, you forgot a birthday, etc. Even if there was the wholesome recognition that there had been some akusala, this will not condition embarrassment in the person who does not have the tendency for that reaction. It's that tendency that is the main condition. Jon #126389 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:44 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jagkrit, all (Nina and Alberto in the p.s) > > Your explanation is impressive.( e.g, akusala embarrassment is displeasure wuth oneself, and therefore dosa; no mana with dosa.) Unless soneone steps in with a clarifucation I will assume that what you wrote is direct from Abhidhamma and therefore the uncontestable answer to pt's question. > =============== J: What JJ says is correct, namely that mana and dosa cannot arise at the same mind-moment. However, mana and dosa can arise alternately, so there is no reason why this should not be case when there is the conventional situation we call embarrassment. Jon #126390 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:50 am Subject: Contiguity/Absence condition (was, Re: kenh3) jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Regarding the idea that citta A's energy and force is transmitted to the creation of citta B, the *creation* of citta B is not something that citta A has any role in. As previously explained, the conditioning relationship exists by virtue of the fact that the falling away of one citta allows the next citta, whatever citta that may be, to arise. But the type and composition of that succeeding citta is conditioned by other paccaya (conditioning factors) than the falling away of the preceding citta. > > > > As I understand the situation, neither force nor flavour is transmitted, but merely accumulated *latent* tendencies, etc. > > Rob E: How are they transmitted, after the previous citta has completely fallen away? Where do they come from to be reinstated in the next succeeding citta? > =============== J: I'm not aware of any text that gives an answer to your question. Would you like me to give my own ideas on the matter? Sorry, but I don't have any :-)) Jon #126391 From: KC Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment ashkenn2k Dear Howard and Jon A simple determination of wholesome or unwholesome is whether there is unpleasant feeling arise. A wholesome one will not have unpleasant feeling. From KC > #126392 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/9/2012 10:38:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard --- In _dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 9/7/2012 9:43:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > J: Well I think that was my own view at the time, but I now appreciate > that wholesome regret for wrongdoing (otappa?) would not condition the feeling > of discomfort that is the hallmark of embarrassment. > ============================ > It seems to me that embarrassment arises due to a complex of > (non-simultaneous) conditions, some wholesome and some not. Would one be embarrassed > with regard to a deed if one had no regretful sense at all that it was > wrong? I'm just not sure, but I think not. > =============== J: Well, I would say that one can be embarrassed without thinking one has done wrong, and obviously without there being any kusala of any kind. For example, you were unable to remember a name, you forgot a birthday, etc. ------------------------------------------------------ HCW: Yes, you're quite right! Thanks. (Good examples, BTW.) -------------------------------------------------------- Even if there was the wholesome recognition that there had been some akusala, this will not condition embarrassment in the person who does not have the tendency for that reaction. It's that tendency that is the main condition. ----------------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes. ---------------------------------------------------------- Jon =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous #126393 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Embarrassment upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Jon) - In a message dated 9/9/2012 11:41:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard and Jon A simple determination of wholesome or unwholesome is whether there is unpleasant feeling arise. A wholesome one will not have unpleasant feeling. ------------------------------------------------- HCW: Yes, so it seems. However, an unwholesome one may well have pleasant feeling. (Consider a lunatic mass-murderer who thoroughly enjoys killing.) ------------------------------------------------ From KC ======================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous #126394 From: "philip" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:49 am Subject: Re: Embarrassment philofillet Hi Jon I personally don't see any value in speculating what dhammas might be behind conventional situations, delerious thinking rather than the presently arisen reality. Is there seeing now, hearing now? Possible objects of awareneds. Embarrasment now? Impossible. Sorry to hear about your ankle. phil #126395 From: "Kalpa" Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 11:05 pm Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) kapilabs Dear Sarah., thanks for welcoming. I'm Kapila, a monk from Srilanka & living in a far place here, while experiencing solitude. Btw, Regarding the facts you mentioned, that 'manasikara' is the cause to 'keep existing' something in mind, because it's clear that nothing can exist without mansikara. (manasika sambhawa sabbe dhamma) sambhawa means exist. Then sati will be in evil thoughts also...!?! See, how can someone manage to do a well planned murder in a tricky situation, without a sharp awareness/memory of what's happening..? There's a sati called "michcha sati" means "harmful awareness" because it causes to harm self & others. For example you can remind/recall a bad act you did in the past with using sati(awareness of past) though you might have "akusala mano kamma" by doing so (it depends on the state of recalling) & it can be michcha sati. In dhamma we always talk about "samma sati" which's not harmful for self & others. In the description of sati given by buddha as, the ability of recalling things in the past is sati. Recalling things is not only depends on sati, but also on "nivarana". If you've any of 5 nivarana running in your mind, then you won't be able to recall things at the same time. See, if you fall in love with someone having "kama chanda" nivarana in your mind, then you'll forget even where you are, what a recall of past, while not aware of present..! See, these things can be known by own experience & not in the book. And we should never ignore what we can see as it is, because of books. By "abhidhamma" book, sati given as a sobhana chetasika is misleading. Buddha never say anything which causes to mislead. I'd like to warn all wise folk about learning abhidhamma because it mainly contains 2 types called suttanta naya & abhidhamma naya. That's dhamma taken from sutta & dhamma described later by monks, which as it not in Buddhas words. Their description might defer than what buddha said. Some other contents are mentioned as completely their thoughts. So this's like a fruit salad mixed with some spoiled fruits also & you'll not be able to digest it if you eat it as it is..! Anyway you eat, you'll FEEL some taste & later a sickness also. Many people have frustrated & hampered for that reason. The solution to this is leaving spoiled fruits & eat fresh only. Abhidhamma is so useful as far as not ignoring things as they're we experience & not being slavers of it. I said this is, with metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Kalpa (?), > > Welcome to DSG! Pls introduce yourself a little if you feel inclined to do so. Where do you live? > ________________________________ > > From: Kalpa > > >There're 3 things need to generate a chitta(vinnana, mano). > >1. Healthy organ to exist(eye, ear,.. etc). > >2. Relevant Object to come on the path of organ. > >3. Attention of object. > >So, the fact need to come on the path of mind & to give attention to it are the conditions for recalling. > >Then it also depends on ones "sati" (ability to remind > > ... > S: Good point - there must be the sense base, object and manasikara arising in order for citta to experience the object. These factors are given in the suttas. Of course, there must be sanna to mark the object, contact and other mental factors. Sati only arises if it's a sobhana citta, like a wholesome (kusala) recalling of the object. Usually it's not. > > Look forward to more discussions with you and everyone after we're settled in Poland. > > Pls remember to sign off with your (preferably real) name, so we know how to address you. Thanks in advance > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #126396 From: "Kalpa" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:11 am Subject: Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) kapilabs Dear Sarah., I'm Kapila from Srilanka where reserved all this dhamma in writing to use all of us today. Ancient Srilankan monks are the only great ones who could brought forward this mass of dhamma in orally & later in writing also since many 100s of years while disappeared dhamma everywhere. I'm also studying dhamma since many years in pali. Btw Regarding our discussion, by "manasikara" it keeps existing the citta, because nothing can exist in mind without thinking.(manasikara sambhawa sabbe dhamma) sambhawa means exist. Then sati can be in akusala chitta also as "michcha sati" & then it's harmfull for self & others, but in dhamma it's usually mentioned of 'samma sati' for good, thus given as sobhana chetasika. For example, one can keep sharp awareness(sati) to carry out a well planned murder in a tricky situation, also he can recall it later using sati to enjoy it, then both times michcha sati arised. We should never ignore practical reality while learning dhamma, because we learn dhamma to realize things as they exist practically & not to surpass the reality. Dhamma is for use as a vehicle & not to hold as a weight like "god's myth beliefs". Buddha described sati as the ability of recalling the past, so it is the main thing involves in recalling but five "nivarana" also. You'll be prevented recalling when nivarana running in your mind. For example when you fall in love with someone & having "kama chanda" nivarana also in your mind, then you'll not be able to recall even where you're at present... what a past you recall then..!? It's also a practical reality up to what Buddha said..! With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Kalpa (?), > > Welcome to DSG! Pls introduce yourself a little if you feel inclined to do so. Where do you live? > ________________________________ > > From: Kalpa > > >There're 3 things need to generate a chitta(vinnana, mano). > >1. Healthy organ to exist(eye, ear,.. etc). > >2. Relevant Object to come on the path of organ. > >3. Attention of object. > >So, the fact need to come on the path of mind & to give attention to it are the conditions for recalling. > >Then it also depends on ones "sati" (ability to remind > > ... > S: Good point - there must be the sense base, object and manasikara arising in order for citta to experience the object. These factors are given in the suttas. Of course, there must be sanna to mark the object, contact and other mental factors. Sati only arises if it's a sobhana citta, like a wholesome (kusala) recalling of the object. Usually it's not. > > Look forward to more discussions with you and everyone after we're settled in Poland. > > Pls remember to sign off with your (preferably real) name, so we know how to address you. Thanks in advance > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #126397 From: "kapilabs" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Sea of concepts 5. kapilabs Monk- Bhante, if there's any one thing to remove for the removal of Avijja.? The Buddha- yes, there's one thing to remove for the removal of Avijja.! Monk- bhante, what's that one thing to remove for the removal of avijja.? The Buddha- avijja is the one thing to remove for the removal of avijja.! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Kalpa, > thank you for your contribution. > Op 9-sep-2012, om 11:55 heeft Kalpa het volgende geschreven: > > > So far I found that many of such "vital & deep" key words in dhamma > > are misinterpreted initially by translatars. I saw this's as the > > DISAPPEARENCE of dhamma. Because no one will attain nibbana without > > having known proper meanings of those vital key words.! Dhamma has > > already begun to fed out from the world becaue of Ignorance & > > Invisibility..!!! > ------- > N: Different translators prefer to use different words. More > important than the words we use is knowing the characteristics of the > realities that appear. Avijjaa, or moha, actually: not seeing things > as they really are. It is not easy to clearly know its characteristic > when it appears. It is the opposite of right understanding, seeing > things as they are. For example, we believe that we can see persons, > how deluded we are. But when there can be right awareness and right > understanding of seeing appearing now, we begin to know the > difference between seeing and thinking of concepts. It is just a > beginning of understanding. A little less avijjaa. > ------ > Nina. > > > > > #126398 From: "Kalpa" Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: SPD pt.II, ch. 7 (12) aarammana (object of citta, cont'd.) kapilabs Dear Sarah., thanks & something is preventing my post on this & I failed to post few times. I'm from Srilanka where all dhamma had kept reserved since the past. Srilankan monks are the only heroes who brought dhamma forward & wrote at 1st in the world while it disappeared everywhere it were. Btw, in our discussion, by "manasikara" it keeps exist the citta, because nothing can exist in mind without thinking.(manasikara sambhawa sabbe dhamma) sambhawa means exist. Then sati can be in akusala chitta also as "michcha sati" & being harmfull, but 'samma sati' mentions always in dhamma, thus given as sobhana chetasika. For example, one can have sharp awareness(sati) to carry out a planned murder, & he can recall it later with sati, then both times michcha sati arised. We should never ignore practical reality while learning dhamma, because dhamma is also to realize things as they exist practically & not to surpass the reality. Dhamma is for use as a vehicle & not to hold as a weight like "god's myth beliefs". Buddha described sati as the ability of recalling & five "nivarana" also prevent recalling. You'll not be able to recall even where you're at present when you've "tina middha" nivarana in your mind, so what a past can remind then.? With metta, Kapila. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Kalpa (?), > > Welcome to DSG! Pls introduce yourself a little if you feel inclined to do so. Where do you live? > ________________________________ > > From: Kalpa > > >There're 3 things need to generate a chitta(vinnana, mano). > >1. Healthy organ to exist(eye, ear,.. etc). > >2. Relevant Object to come on the path of organ. > >3. Attention of object. > >So, the fact need to come on the path of mind & to give attention to it are the conditions for recalling. > >Then it also depends on ones "sati" (ability to remind > > ... > S: Good point - there must be the sense base, object and manasikara arising in order for citta to experience the object. These factors are given in the suttas. Of course, there must be sanna to mark the object, contact and other mental factors. Sati only arises if it's a sobhana citta, like a wholesome (kusala) recalling of the object. Usually it's not. > > Look forward to more discussions with you and everyone after we're settled in Poland. > > Pls remember to sign off with your (preferably real) name, so we know how to address you. Thanks in advance > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #126399 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:35 am Subject: Fw: Reply from Kapila sarahprocter... ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Kalpa Bs > To: sarahprocterabbott@... > Cc: > Sent: Monday, 10 September 2012, 2:26 > Subject: Reply from Kapila > > > Dear Sarah., > Thanks for welcoming & i tried to reply on the post but failed few times(?) > I'm Kapila from Srilanka where all dhamma had reserved since past. Srilankan > monks are the only heroes who brought dhamma forward & wrote at 1st in the > world while it disappeared everywhere it were. > Btw, Regarding our discussion, by "manasikara" it keeps exist the > citta, because nothing can exist in mind without thinking.(manasikara sambhawa > sabbe dhamma) sambhawa means exist. > Then sati can be in akusala chitta also as "michcha sati" & being > harmfull, but in dhamma it's usually mentioned of 'samma sati' for > the good, thus given as sobhana chetasika. For example, one can have sharp > awareness(sati) to carry out a well planned murder in a tricky situation, also > he can recall it later using sati to enjoy it, then both times michcha sati > arised. > We should never ignore practical reality while learning dhamma, because we learn > dhamma to realize things as they exist practically & not to surpass the > reality. Dhamma is for use as a vehicle & not to hold as a weight like > "god's myth beliefs". > Buddha described sati as the ability of recalling the past, so it is the main > cause of recalling but five "nivarana" also prevent you recalling, > let's think if you've fall in love with someone & "kama > chanda" nivarana also running in your mind. You'll not recall even > where you're at present & what recalling of past.! It's also > practical reality as said by Buddha. > With metta, > Kapila. >