#131600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2013 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa_010 (DT 897 ) nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 5-jul-2013, om 17:26 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende geschreven: > For simple arahats no special parami is required. ------ N: We can say that all paramis are wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. They are to be cultivated without expecting any gain for oneself, and with the aim to have less defilements. In order to attain arahatship, are paramis like patience, khanti, mettaa, upekkhaa, determination, viriya not needed? Also those who attained arahatship were once beginners, and they had ignorance and attachment, and other defilements which had to be eliminated. ----- Nina. #131601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2013 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] nilovg Dear Phil and Jon, Op 5-jul-2013, om 18:29 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special > > activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 > > anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. > > > > Jon ----- N: What a good reminder, any time! ------ Nina. #131602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 6, 2013 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anattaa. nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 6-jul-2013, om 7:08 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > It is very essential for the practising person to see the > connection between anicca, dukkha and anatta: One sees the five > aggregates as anicca (impermanent); seeing them as anicca, one sees > them as dukkha (suffering); seeing them as dukkha, one sees them as > anatta (not-self). ------- N: Yes, true. I was perhaps mistaken about what you wrote. I thought that you menat: this first, then that. But for the geninner: he has to know what is the reality that experiences as different from the reality that does not experience anything. Otherwise he would confuse seeing and visible object, hearing and sound. Nina. #131603 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa_010 (DT 897 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Op 5-jul-2013, om 17:26 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende > geschreven: > > > For simple arahats no special parami is required. > ------ > N: We can say that all paramis are wholesomeness through body, speech > and mind. They are to be cultivated without expecting any gain for > oneself, and with the aim to have less defilements. In order to > attain arahatship, are paramis like patience, khanti, mettaa, > upekkhaa, determination, viriya not needed? > Also those who attained arahatship were once beginners, and they had > ignorance and attachment, and other defilements which had to be > eliminated. > ----- > Nina. ---------------------------- Dear Nina, I have described on time scale. Sammaasambuddha all kinds including viiriyadhiko, saddhaadhiko, and pa~n~naadhiko require a total of 20 As and 100,000 kappas, paccekabuddhaa 2 As and 1 lakh kappas, aggasaavakaa 1 As and 1 lakh kappas, mahaasaavakaa 1 lakh kappas. Except simple arahats all saavakaa need prefilled paaramii. I meant 'no need' to be 'no prefilled paaramii in this very life'. But in this life all 10 paaramii are required. With respect, Htoo Naing #131604 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 1:01 am Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear htoo, and all, > > --- "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > > > > htoo: ... Anicca, dukkha, anatta, and asubha are hallmarks of dhamma... > > T: I think 'asubha' should not be included for the hallmarks of dhamma. I do not see any suttas, particularly SN, list it along with 'anicca, dukkha, anatta'. > > Regards, > > Thomas ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Thomas, You are right. In nikaayo there are only three signs of dhamma. They are anicca, dukkha, anatta. I included asubha because I have to say on that. Satipa.t.thaana as a whole is an activity not of anyone. There are 4 kinds of satipatthaana. In precise term satipatthaana is just one. But it has to be four as our Lord Buddha taught. This is because there are 4 separate objects or aaramma.na. Ramati = enjoy. Aaramati = come and enjoy. Aaramma.na = where consciousness comes and enjoys. Conscious mind of satipatthaana (the mind of meditator) takes any of 4 objects or aaramma.na as its object. Because consciousness comes and enjoys in one of those 4 aaramma.na. As there are 4 separate objects then satipatthaana has to be 4 instead of one single thing as 'sati'. 'Sarati'iti sati'. 1. kaayaanupassanaa (kaaya + anu-passanaa) 2. vedanaanupassanaa (vedana + anu-passanaa) 3. cittaanupassanaa ( citta + anu-passanaa) 4. dhammaanupassanaa ( dhamma + anupassanaa) Anu = along, in accordance with, in line with, in detail etc Passanaa = passa + na + a _passati = see (realise) Anupassanaa + realising all detail, seeing all detail Kaaya = constellation, heaping, sum (here it is sum of ruupa) Vedana = vedayati_vedeti_anubhavati = feeling Citta = cinteti, cintayati = think out, think over, thinking Dhamma = here it seems referred to 'sanna and sa`nkhaaya' Kaayaanupassanaa mainly on ruupakkhandhaa. Vedanaanupassanaa mainly on vedanakkhandhaa. Cittaanupassanaa mainly on vi~n~naakkhandhaa. Dhammaanupassanaa mainly on 'sa~n~naakkhandhaa & sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa' Again kaayaanupassanaa is on 5 senses mainly focused on ruupa like 1. vanna and cakkhu (colour and eye) 2. sadda and sota (sound and ear ) 3. gandha and ghaana(smell and nose) 4. rasa and jivhaa(taste and tongue) 5. pho.t.thabbaa and kaaya (touch and body_any part including eyeballs, earlobes, physical nose, fleshy tongue except corn or think dry skin, hair and hairs. Mahaasii instruct to concentrate on abdomen. Rising and falling. AT first call in the mind as 'rising and falling'. Later instructed to concentrate on the sense of 'tenseness' and 'looseness'. Paramattha is there. It is vaayo. Vaayo here works as object. It is ruupa. It is vayo pho.t.thabba. So it is kaayaanupassanaa. Some meditators concentrate on where tenseness or looseness exists. Then they are directing to kaayapasaada which just last 17 cittakkha.na. Mahaasii Sayadaw (Late MS) saw or realised that there are bhava`nga cittas as experience. We all are in many bhava`nga cittas. Even Sammaasambuddhas do have bhava`nga cittas many times in ordinary time. When in 'yamakapa.tihaariyaa abhi~n~naa' then there are only 2 bhava`nga cittas. Even Mahaamoggallaana cannot follow this. Anatta is seen at first visit to nibbaana. Anicca is especially seen at second visit to nibbaana. Asubha is especially seen at third visit to nibbaana. Dukkha is especially seen at last visit to nibbaana. When asubha is realised then meditators become anaagaamii. Yes, asubha is not a sign of dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131605 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 2:05 am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear Group > The following from Useful Posts refutes the notion that there is value to be found in observing conventional activities such as walking etc. It is the realities behind them that are to be studied. No notion (for example, to use Htoo's idea) of walking becoming transparent so that realities gradually become exposed, consideration goes straight to the realities. > Phil ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Phil, Jon , Nina, Sarah and all, 'Gacchanto vaa gacchaami'iti pajaanaati'. The Buddha simply described. Paa.li cannonis is concise, compact, compressed. No extra nor no requirement to add. Dhamma are svakkhato. A.t.thakathaa explore further to explain. Tiikaa are needed to fully understand. A.t.thakathaa did sodanaa on this. 'When he walks he knows he walks'. Many lay people will deny this because this is not dhamma(as they think). Toddlers know he is walking. Dogs know they are walking when they walk. Foxes know when they walk. "Kaama.m so.na si`ngaalaadayopi gacchantaa gacchaamaati jaananti. Na paneta.m evaruupa.mjaanana.m sandhaaya vutta.m. Eva ruupa.m jaanana.m sattuupaladdhi.m na pajahati. Atta sa~n~na.m na ugghaa.teti. Kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hoti. Imassa pa na bhikkhuno jaanana.m sattuupaladdhi.m pajahati. Atta sa~n~na.m ugghaa.teti. Kamma.t.thaana.mceca satipa.t.thaana bhaavanaa ca hoti. Ida~nhiko gacchati. Kassa gamana.m. Ki.m kara.naa gacchatiiti eva.m sampajaanana.m samdhaaya vutta.m. .Thaanaadiisupi eseva nayo. This is a.t.thakathaa explanation. When walk try to know walking. At first 'say in mind'. SO that mind cannot sway. 'walking' 'walking' 'walking'. Later he understands that from the very first movement to the last movement just before to stop to stand there are many things happen. Arising and falling away. All are kaayavinnaa.na cittas arising and falling away. Mahaasii Sayadaw instructed to walk as if feeble person as if an ill person. That is slowly. Very slowly (I rember Sarah's word 'walking slowly in Hong Kong). During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken. This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana. In Myanmar language there is a saying " 'vi' cannot be make without 'v' or without 'va'. Here 'vi' means 'vipassanaa'. 'Va' mean 'vavatthaana'. That is separation. Separation of naama and ruupa. Without this there will not be any true vipassanaa. Walking does have many 'naama and ruupa'. I did not mean 'walking' and an object. But I meant walking as the object of meditation where direction is to ruupa here. One cannot decide the depth of knowledge and panna of anyone without understanding that person. Even arahats do have vaacanaa. Examples are 'saying bad words' is not of arahats. It seems committing 'pharusa vaacaa'. There was an arahat who said bad words because of vaacana. Unless there is pa.tisambhidaa arahats may or may not use language properly. If prematurely decide on what an ariyaa says as if bad behaviours or bad habit then one may commit 'ariyuupavaada kamma'. This will hinder the progress to nibbaana in this life. Here nibbaana include all 4 stages. Once a norvice who was a sotapanno committed this 'ariyuupavaada kamma'. He and and elder monk went alm round into a village. After round the elder monk sat on a log just outskirt of the village and then ate the food he received. The norvice accused him of greedy and said bad words on elder monk. The monk said 'Mr Norvice what stage have you been?'. Norvice answered 'I am a sotapanno'. "OK boy! don't practice satipa.t.thaana any more and you will not have any progress. The norvice asked his teachers and found to have he did wrong on an arahat. Then he went to the elder monk in monastry and worshipped him and asked for to forgive his bad words. Sabbe sattaa kammassakaa Htoo Naing #131606 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 2:56 am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Dear Htoo thank you for your long explanation. But I am only interested in dhammas. I can understand why you think being exclusively interested in dhammas is premature, but even if it is just thinking with attachment to the idea of understanding dhammas, that is all that I am interested in, not stories about this monk or that monk. I think it is the heart of the Dhamma, the heartwood. Yes, I know that it must seem that we should get through the branches before we can get to the heartwood, but I think intellectual understanding of the heartwood is the branches. But thank you for your explanation anyways. Phil #131607 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 8:20 am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hello again > Yes, I know that it must seem that we should get through the branches before we can get to the heartwood, but I think intellectual understanding of the heartwood is the branches. > I would like to change this wording. Intellectual understanding of dhammas is a necessary condition for satipatthana (the heartwood) so it is not the branches. An aspect of the heartwood? I think there is a sutta in which the Buddha says what the branches are and that would probably be a good sutta to quote for those who believe that the right conventional behaviour (irregardless of the understanding of the dhammas involved) is necessary condition for deeper understanding. In other words it would be one of those many misinterpreted suttas. Phil #131608 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 9:06 am Subject: Revulsion, dispassion and so on philofillet Dear Nina These days I am retreading my favorite samyutta of SN for the first time in a couple of years, SN35. Wonderful to be reminded in such a clear way that the Buddha taught realities as The All, and therefore nothing but realities. I come across a lot of words referring to what arises out of the development if understanding, words like revulsion, and dispassion. Is it worth learning what these words actually mean? What value is there in knowing more in theory about attainments when our understanding is so weak, so far from attainments? Perhaps as a way of fostering gratitude to the Buddha and those noble ones who did attain liberation? And confidence that it *is* possible? ( As long as that confidence can somehow arise without greed for progress. Well, the greed for progress is almost always popping up when we study Dhamma, like cow pies in a field of fresh green clover. Well, the cow pies don't pop up, thankfully, they just lurk and we are never aware of them, so not the best simile... Phil #131609 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 9:11 am Subject: Re: Revulsion, dispassion and so on philofillet Hi again. Correction. We do become aware of cow pies. The subtle greed for progress with ditthi that even students of Ajahn Sujin are subject to has to be something that is quite lovely but that we don't often notice and we don't think is harmful. Lovely dandelions laced with herbicides? Never mind. Phil #131610 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: anattaa. thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, and all --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > Op 6-jul-2013, om 7:08 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > It is very essential for the practising person to see the > connection between anicca, dukkha and anatta: One sees the five > aggregates as anicca (impermanent); seeing them as anicca, one sees > them as dukkha (suffering); seeing them as dukkha, one sees them as > anatta (not-self). > ------- > N: Yes, true. I was perhaps mistaken about what you wrote. I thought that you menat: this first, then that. > But for the geninner: he has to know what is the reality that > experiences as different from the reality that does not experience > anything. Otherwise he would confuse seeing and visible object, > hearing and sound. T: According to the SN suttas, there is no need to name `reality', but to see directly body and mind phenomena `dhammas' (the five aggregates, the sense spheres) as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) as anatta, and the middle. Thomas #131611 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 12:39 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, and all, --"htoonaing@..." wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > > You are right. In nikaayo there are only three signs of dhamma. They are anicca, dukkha, anatta. I included asubha because I have to say on that. > > Satipa.t.thaana as a whole is an activity not of anyone. There are 4 kinds of satipatthaana. In precise term satipatthaana is just one. But it has to be four as our Lord Buddha taught. > ... > 'Sarati'iti sati'. > > 1. kaayaanupassanaa (kaaya + anu-passanaa) > 2. vedanaanupassanaa (vedana + anu-passanaa) > 3. cittaanupassanaa ( citta + anu-passanaa) > 4. dhammaanupassanaa ( dhamma + anupassanaa) > > Kaayaanupassanaa mainly on ruupakkhandhaa. > Vedanaanupassanaa mainly on vedanakkhandhaa. > Cittaanupassanaa mainly on vi~n~naakkhandhaa. > Dhammaanupassanaa mainly on 'sa~n~naakkhandhaa & sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa' > > Again kaayaanupassanaa is on 5 senses mainly focused on ruupa like > > 1. vanna and cakkhu (colour and eye) > 2. sadda and sota (sound and ear ) > 3. gandha and ghaana(smell and nose) > 4. rasa and jivhaa(taste and tongue) > 5. pho.t.thabbaa and kaaya (touch and body_any part including eyeballs, earlobes, physical nose, fleshy tongue except corn or think dry skin, hair and hairs. > > Anatta is seen at first visit to nibbaana. > Anicca is especially seen at second visit to nibbaana. > Asubha is especially seen at third visit to nibbaana. > Dukkha is especially seen at last visit to nibbaana. > > When asubha is realised then meditators become anaagaamii. > > Yes, asubha is not a sign of dhamma. > ... -------- Thank you very much for the information. On the four stations of mindfulness (cattaro satipatthana), SN 47.2 (in Satipatthana Samyutta) records the Buddha as giving the very basic and practical teachings (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 215-6) thus: "A bhiksu/bhikkhu should dwell mindful (sato) and aware (sampajaano). This is our instruction to you. And how, bhiksus, is a bhiksu mindful? Herein, bhiksus, a bhiksu abides in body (kaaye) contemplating (or looking at) body, strenuous, aware, mindful, restraining covetousness and distress in the world. He abides in feelings (vedanasu) contemplating feelings ... in mind (citte) contemplating mind ... He abides in phenomena (dhammesu) contemplating phenomena, strenuous, aware, mindful, restraining covetousness and distress in the world. Thus, bhiksus, is a bhiksu mindful. And how, bhiksus, is a bhiksu aware? Herein, bhiksus, a bhiksu in going forth and in returning is acting with awareness (sampajaanakaarii). In looking in front and looking behind he is acting with awareness. In bending or relaxing he is acting with awareness. In wearing his robe, in bearing bowl and outer robe he is acting with awareness. In eating, drinking, chewing and tasting he is acting with awareness. In easing himself he is acting with awareness. In going, standing, sitting and sleeping, in waking, speaking and keeping silence he is acting with awareness. Thus, bhiksus, is a bhiksu aware." -------- I consider the above-mentioned teachings on 'mindfulness' and 'awareness' are very useful and practical for managing our mantel activities for overcoming negative emotion, such as raaga-dosa-moha (desire-hatred-delusion) in daily life. Regards. Thomas #131612 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 2:17 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_009 (DT 896 ) ptaus1 Hi Htoo and all, > Apaadaana describes requisites, fulfilments and requirements for Sammasambuddhas, paccekabuddhas, agga-saavakas, mahaa-saavakas. > > I do not know English for Apaadaana. Thanks. Yes, it seems Apadana hasn't been translated into English yet. For those interested, there are two bits from Apadana in English on Bhikkhu Anandajoti's website: Buddhaapadaana: http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-buddhist-texts/English-Texts/Short-Pieces-in\ -English/Buddhapadana.htm I found it interesting in the sense that it reads like Mahayana, although it's canonical Theravada - e.g. all the Buddhas, silent Buddhas, great disciples, etc, coming together and asking each other questions in the Buddha-Land. Apadana 39.10 and commentary: http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-buddhist-texts/Texts-and-Translations/Connec\ tion-with-Previous-Deeds/index.htm This one seemed more interesting in terms of the commentary - the commentator actually mentions that the Great Commentary in Sinhala makes no sense and that he therefore composed a commentary that does make sense. Interesting details. Best wishes pt #131613 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 3:03 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. kenhowardau Hi Thomas (and Htoo), ----- > T: Thank you very much for the information. > On the four stations of mindfulness (cattaro satipatthana), SN 47.2 (in Satipatthana Samyutta) records the Buddha as giving the very basic and practical teachings (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 215-6) thus: <. . .> ----- KH: You might remember my remarks about religious rites and rituals. I suggested you saw the Dhamma that way and you retorted, "Did I say that?" Well, yes, both you and Htoo, and all the other meditating Buddhists, are saying that. On the other hand, some of us here are saying that the Dhamma is *not* a set of religious rites and rituals. So when discussion turns to which particular rites and rituals the Dhamma contains (is it the Mahasi ones or is it some other ones?) we just want to say it contains no rites or rituals of *any* kind. This is very hard to understand. In every other teaching there is a set of prayers, or meditations, or activities that result in the practitioner's getting to heaven (or in Buddhist religions, getting to nibbana). Some of us here are trying to say that the Dhamma is uniquely different. It contains no rites or rituals, and there is no practitioner who gets (or does not get) to nibbana. So that's what I want to remind you. When the discussion turns to which rituals are the right rituals, some of us are trying to say, "None of them!" Ken H #131614 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 4:09 pm Subject: Serial blasts at Bodhgaya Temple christine_fo... Hello all, Shocking news - bomb blasts cause injuries and damage at BodhGaya. http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/serial-blasts-at-bodhgaya-tem\ ple-two-injured/article4891094.ece With metta and karuna, Chris #131615 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: When tipi.tka is surfed there are 38 kamma.t.thaana. All these support reaching nibbaana. > > > > Buddhaanussati: Even though start with concept this leads to nibbaana. And also other 37 kammatthaana help reaching nibbaana. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Abhidhammasangaha was written 1000 years after the Buddha. Buddha's words are all in tipi.taka. Buddha did not preached there are 40 kamma.t.thaana. Instead He preached separately depending on the listener's wisdom. I'm a little confused about the 38 versus the 40... Other than that, I appreciate the info - so the Buddha, and the teachers after him, would assign the meditation object based on their understanding of the individual. This is also spoken about in the Visuddhimagga. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #131616 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 5:27 pm Subject: Re: Serial blasts at Bodhgaya Temple christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > Hello all, > > Shocking news - bomb blasts cause injuries and damage at BodhGaya. > > http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/serial-blasts-at-bodhgaya-tem\ ple-two-injured/article4891094.ece > > With metta and karuna, > Chris > Pictures of the actual damage: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bodhgaya-eight-blasts-inside-mahabodhi-temple-\ two-injured-388891 With metta, Chris #131617 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Serial blasts at Bodhgaya Temple christine_fo... Hello all, Video (about four minutes in see damage done by bomb in donation box next to Bodhi Tree). http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/eight-blasts-inside-mahabodhi-temple-in-bo\ dhgaya-two-injured/282094?sp With metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > Shocking news - bomb blasts cause injuries and damage at BodhGaya. > > > > http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/serial-blasts-at-bodhgaya-tem\ ple-two-injured/article4891094.ece > > > > With metta and karuna, > > Chris > > > Pictures of the actual damage: http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/bodhgaya-eight-blasts-inside-mahabodhi-temple-\ two-injured-388891 > > With metta, > Chris > #131618 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 7:26 pm Subject: TA on the blessings sprlrt (Than Acharn, in Poland, 14th, aam, 1m) TA: What is the first one? (of the blessings, in the Mangala Sutta) Not associating with the wrong person, this is very important, because the association is very important; one might not see the danger in associating with anyone, but actually even by the idea about whatever, one inclines little by little towards that idea; for example one might think that one associating with this person - not dangerous (for him) at all, but by hearing and considering the thing that we don't like at the beginning, (it) will become one's habit, until one likes it, it's like the wrong teachings and the wrong ideas, one who does not think carefully can easily follow (them), so one cannot go back to the right thing, because it's so very hard to have it back again; and also the wrong person doesn't mean only the wrong idea: the wrong practical behaviour in one's life and everything; that's why from childhood we were taught in school to have many kusalas, like showing respect to the good men, or to parents, and things like that, because it will condition..., the reason to see the value of kusala and the dangers of akusala; everything is a bit of accumulations, from aeons and aeons before, that's why today there's one taken for Lukas, and what people take for this or that person, but in reality they're all dhatus (elements), and when you talk about dhatus - nobody can do anything to fire, or earth, or wind or anything, because there are conditions for their arising, everything has conditions for its arising; so if we don't know that association with wrong persons is so dangerous, we might run into that danger by associating more and more; that's why (the) one thing that one can associate with the wrong ones is to help or to assist (them), not to follow their idea - just for the sake of helping that person to be good, to have right understanding, but not to follow that wrong understanding, that wrong behaviour. And the second one is associating with the right one, and (to) know who that is, one should think about that person goodness, in order to see - it indicates that one knows what's right and what's wrong, everything has (its) indication. And another thing is : Dhamma discussion, listening to Dhamma - being it all about leading to more and more understanding so that it can eliminate unwholesomeness and selfishness; for example, do you know the motto of our Dhamma Foundation? Be good, or do good, and study Dhamma - in order to understand Dhamma; because people today think that what they are reading is the moment of studying Dhamma, but it's not, it's only studying *a subject on* Dhamma, but not understanding what Dhamma is at all; but now, since one knows that at the time of the Buddha, he taught those who came to listen to him about whatever appears, as reality, and that person can lead all those people who considered and agreed whether seeing now is permanent or not, because a moment of life, a moment in the circle of birth and death is this very moment - each moment forms up the whole samsara, not a single moment is out of it, otherwise it wouldn't be samsara; so now at the moment of hearing a sound, when there's no understanding it's passed with ignorance again, and attachment again, unknowingly, because of the four aasava (accumulated defilements): kaama aasava (of attachment to sensous objects), ditthi aasava (of wrong view), bhava aasava (of being someone), and avijja aasava (of ignorance); we couldn't understand this at all if the Buddha, after his enlightenment, didn't tell us about what appears so very fast, because it seems like everything is there for awhile, like the sun now, and the visible object, but actually it's so rapid - only one moment of citta cannot be imagined, but since it arises, the characteristic, how can one know about it, whether there is citta or not, because the succession of the arising and falling away of citta appears as - it sees and then it hears, especially these, letting one know that there is a reality which can experience an object, otherwise the world would not be seen - no one (would) know about the world of sight now, and the world of sound, because without the arising and falling away of realities there would be nothing at all appearing - no experiencing; so the most important thing now is that not knowing that what is appearing, because that experience, the citta, it's now the faculty of experiencing; that's why there are many words for citta, like pandara (that which is clear): citta itself does not like or dislike - it just experience, but it cannot arise without cetasikas, so we come to the conditions, from the very beginning, that nothing can arise without conditions; so at this moment of seeing, citta is the faculty of experiencing, but there must be many factors for its arising, so there are many factors arising with this moment of seeing, unknowingly; the Buddha didn't enlighten from his seeing's accumulation; (not) by just knowing the truth for himself, but to share it with the others; because anyone who doesn't understand realities is living in a blind world, not understanding, just live and die, that's all; but in reality these are different dhatus, citta is one dhatu, cetasikas are dhatus, everything is its own dhatu; so now nobody know about the seven cetasikas which arise with this citta, why? because even that which experiences is unknown as a reality - no self, no one there; so by developing understanding, reading more and consider what the book tells about now, this moment, we can condition right understanding from moment to moment, to understand each reality more deeply; to see, right now, it's agreed that seeing sees and hearing hears, but that's only the idea, the intellectual understanding from the one who has directly penetrated the truth of this, and that can be developed too, for those who really know and understand what is meant by reality or Dhamma. #131619 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 8:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > >....But we know it is possible to develop the Perfections, it is possible otherwise the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged us to avoid evil and do good. > > ... > > S: Only possible if realities are understood as anatta. ... > Ph: I agree. But why do we emphasize anatta over the other two? Because only the Buddha taught about anatta? The noble truth says the khandas are dukkha. Are the khandas akin to atta? ... S: The point was that the development of the Perfections is more than just developing kusala because it has to be with the right understanding of realities and that means understanding that dhammas are anatta, not self. If there is no understanding of dhammas as anatta, as elements only - those that experience and those that cannot experience anything - then it's impossible to understand these khandhas as anicca or dukkha. Each conditioned reality is a khandha, so not sure why you ask your last question. Metta Sarah ===== #131620 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 8:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: TA on not understanding sarahprocter... Dear Phil, - > > N: Asavas or intoxicants are more subtle than, for example, the > > hindrances. Asavas keep on leaking all day, time and again. Kaama, > > clinging to sense objects, clinging to wrong view, to existence > > (bhaava) and ignorance. > >P: I remember hearing or reading that when we see a tree or rock or whatever mundane object we *like* to recognize it as a tree etc without particularly liking it in some special way. Is that kind of liking an example of asava? .... S: I was just listening to A.Sujin talking about asavas and how it's when the akusala is very quick and slight, so much so it's not apparent at all. For example, in the case of the first asava, kaamasava (clinging to sense objects), it's just the very slight attachment to what's seen or heard now before there's any idea of 'tree' or 'rock'. I think you asked about bhaavasava (clinging to being/existence). Again it's the very slight attachment to being, to existing to experiencing now. Even the anagami who has no more kaamasava, still has the very slight clinging to being, to experience. Metta Sarah ====== #131621 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 8:30 pm Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: So it seems it was a teaching reserved by the Buddha for use in cases where he knew that a person who had not so far heard the teachings was capable of attaining enlightenment on hearing about the FNT for the first time. ... > > > > As far as I can tell, it was not given as a practice of any kind, whether for the listener or for any other person, nor a description of progress along the path to enlightenment. > > RE: Well, there is also no explanation given of why this particular sequence of instruction would prepare the listener's mind for the 4NT. Is there some significance to this order of teaching to doing so? > =============== J: As I see it, this is a description of the different kinds of kusala, arranged in ascending order. So the teaching is a 'gradual' one in the sense that it leads by stages to the kusala that is awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas, this being the "exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana)" and the highest level of kusala. > =============== > RE: Can one know why these subjects were selected? It cannot be a coincidence that the subjects are classic areas of kusala behavior or states, including giving, purification and fortuitous rebirth, but not including metta, sympathetic joy nor compassion. An interesting selection. > =============== J: I think all levels of kusala are included. I believe the teaching on the heavens (sagga) would include metta, karuna and mudita, since they are conditions for rebirth in the heavenly planes. Jon PS Apologies for taking so long to get back to you on this and other messages. It has been a very busy period for me. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dana), on moral conduct (sila) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. "When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #131622 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 8:31 pm Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma sarahprocter... Dear Alberto & Tony, An excellent transcription, thanks Alberto #131533 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > > (Than Acharn, in Hua Hin, 11th, am-A, 18m) > Tony: Long time ago I came across Tibetan Buddhism and I understood that particular doctrine of emptiness and the illusionary nature of reality, <...>; this could give a sense of liberation, 'I understand more now'; but I still feel the same, and nothing changes, so there's an expectation of alleviation of suffering, the more one understands reality, and that doesn't happen, for me anyway, <...> > > TA: Is understanding you or yours? <...> > TA: For example, the word anatta, what is it? is this moment anatta? and what is there in this moment? otherwise we just talk of anatta with the idea that nothing cannot be taken for self or for permanent being and so on, but there must be whatever appears, no matter we call it anatta or not it's there, for example seeing, we don't have to say 'seeing', but it sees, sound, we don't have to call it 'sound' but it's there, it's heard, and it passes away, falls away instantly; from nothing to be something, and then nothing again, all the time. ... S: Just wondering what you made of the whole passage, Tony? Also, my last comments to you - was there anything further to discuss? Metta Sarah ===== #131623 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 8:43 pm Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used. > ... > D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '. ... S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the time, when they heard descriptions about different individuals, there was no doubt that what was being described were various elements, various khandhas, no atta at all. ... > As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand > your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding ... S: That's a new word for me! As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised. ... ... > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now? > > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta : ... S: You give many quotes, but I don't see any reference to "the samadhi sequence" or any suggestion of the path factors arising in sequences or steps. ... > (D: Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta?) > ... > S: Praising what is 'right' and learning what is praiseworthy. While I agree with you that disagreements should be courteous and respectful, this doesn't mean there should be compromise over what is taught by the Buddha. > > > D: you are right : no compromise what is taught by the Budhha but having very well in mind the ways of teaching .. > S:N. 36/19 (extract) > "The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings.[1] So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation. ... S: Yes, "different ways of presentation", but only one path. ... > Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words."Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes." ... S: Good quote and sutta. Thank you for sharing it and for your detailed post. Metta Sarah ===== #131624 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 10:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. philofillet Hi Sarah > > If there is no understanding of dhammas as anatta, as elements only - those that experience and those that cannot experience anything - then it's impossible to understand these khandhas as anicca or dukkha. Ok. In SN there seems to be a kind of progression of anicca>dukkha>anatta but I am sure that is an oversold fixation and I have no interest in trying to find. The specific characteristics of realities are what interest me and the fact that there is no one in charge, just dhammas performing functions. > Each conditioned reality is a khandha, so not sure why you ask your last question. > Ok. I had been operating under an assumption (probably a wrong teaching picked up from listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi talks a few years ago) that khandas referred to all five together but I can see that only one at a time could be object of awareness so what you say above makes sense. Phil P.s thanks also for post on asavas. #131625 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 10:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. philofillet Hi again " Oversold fixation" is nice but it was actually an auto spellcheck correction for oversimplification. Phil #131626 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 1:58 am Subject: Vipassanaa_011 (DT 898 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Whether an individual is born with pa~n~naa (that is tihetuka pa.tisandhi) cannot be directly known. This is Buddha's unrivalry job. But there are indirect signs or markers or hints that a person is born with tihetuka-pa.tisandhi. People who were born with dvihetuka pa.tisandhi they will never attain jhaana or magga in this very life. This means that they cannot attain jhaana or nibbaana in this very life. When samaadhi is being built there are milestones that one is creeping up in his samaadhi. When an object of kamma.t.thaana is taken as an object by bhaavanaa-citta or bhaavanaa-mind there arise concentration or samaadhi. Samaadhi is in different level. In Ledi Sayadaw's diipanii there describes how to set up samaadhi. There are many different ways to set up samaadhi. If someone is born with tihetuka and has past paaramii he or she is able to set up samaadhi in a short time when appropriate object is found as aaramma.na. Example for pathavii kasi.na a person sees a plain land sees the earth and that object is transformed into different pa~n~natti. Everyone can be trained to have concentration. But not to the level of upacaara samaadhi or even higher one appanaa samaadhi. The object of these two samaadhi-bhaavanaa is pa.tibhaaga nimitta. This is counter image of initial object. When this cannot arise as an object the person is not tihetuka-pa.tisandhi. If this happen he will not attain jhaana or magga in this very life. But he can save paaramii for coming lives. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131627 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 5:40 am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] epsteinrob Hi Phil, Jon and All. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > The following from Useful Posts refutes the notion that there is value to be found in observing conventional activities such as walking etc. Just noting that this refutation comes from Jon, who is an authority on this view of dhammas, but also represents one side of a debate that has two sides to it. Explicating one side of a debate does not "refute" the other side. It just argues against it. Evidence or proof refutes one or the other side. So the question is, what is the evidence for each view? > It is the realities behind them that are to be studied. Everyone agrees that the reality within or behind appearances is what is to be understood and discerned. Even direct experience of paramatha dhammas is not an end in itself, it is a means to realization. So what is to be realized? The annataness of all experience, resulting in detachment from all experience, eventually leading to cessation of all clinging and becoming [parinibbana.] > No notion (for example, to use Htoo's idea) of walking becoming transparent so that realities gradually become exposed, consideration goes straight to the realities. There is such a notion, and it is one legitimate side of this two-sided debate. The question of how the nature of paramatha dhammas comes to be realized may be settled for each side, but it is not settled between them. I would like to say a word about the original post, excerpted here: > > I'd like to examine the supposition about "activities" in the section on > > kayanupassana, by looking at 2 particular sub-sections, the one on modes > > of deportment and the one on reflection on the dhatus. > > > > First, the modes of deportment: > > "And further, O bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am > > going'; when he is standing, he understands: 'I am standing'; when he is > > sitting, he understands: 'I am sitting'; when he is lying down, he > > understands: 'I am lying down'; or just as his body is disposed so he > > understands it. > > >We should notice that there are > > >no special "activities" for the contemplation of feeling > > >(vedananupassana), or the contemplation of nama like citta , sanna, > > >samyojana, etc. Do you know why? Jon: > > For me, the answer to that question is easy: there are no special > > activities for any of the 4 anupassanas ;-)). The message of all 4 > > anupassanas is the same: any time, any dhamma. Kayanupassana can be practiced any time - no special activities required, as Jon says. But kayanupassana refers specifically to the rupas of bodily comportment and activity, and the section on kayanupassana specifies the types of bodily activities during which one can understand such rupas. Sure, it is not said that one should practice walking meditation, but it is said that one should practice kayanupassana while walking. It does not specify sitting meditation, but it does say that kayanupassana should be practiced while sitting. What the section is saying is that during all physical activities, the understanding of the nature of the rupas that arise during those activities is an excellent way of discerning the nature of rupas. And it applies to every dhamma of the physical body, 12 hrs. a day, while walking, sitting, eating, defecating, even sleeping if possible. And it is the physical rupas of bodily movement and comportment that are being specified here, not anything else. Therefore, I would say this section refutes the idea that ordinary activities are *not* a gateway to understanding the nature of rupas. The Buddha is saying the opposite: that it *is* such a gateway and should be utilized freely as such. Also, this section does not rule out any physical activities as having the potential to reveal the underlying rupas. It does not rule out walking or sitting meditation as opportunities to discern the rupas of bodily movement and comportment. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #131628 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 5:47 am Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > ... > > > J: So it seems it was a teaching reserved by the Buddha for use in cases where he knew that a person who had not so far heard the teachings was capable of attaining enlightenment on hearing about the FNT for the first time. ... > > > > > > As far as I can tell, it was not given as a practice of any kind, whether for the listener or for any other person, nor a description of progress along the path to enlightenment. > > > > RE: Well, there is also no explanation given of why this particular sequence of instruction would prepare the listener's mind for the 4NT. Is there some significance to this order of teaching to doing so? > > =============== > > J: As I see it, this is a description of the different kinds of kusala, arranged in ascending order. So the teaching is a 'gradual' one in the sense that it leads by stages to the kusala that is awareness/insight into the true nature of dhammas, this being the "exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana)" and the highest level of kusala. I don't know if you mean this in a different way, but as I read it, it seems that this gives some credence to the idea that by ascending through the various types of kusala, perhaps from simplest to more difficult, one gradually reaches the level of kusala that opens up the path. That would make all the different forms of kusala legitimate stepping stones to the path, if not part of the direct path themselves. > > =============== > > RE: Can one know why these subjects were selected? It cannot be a coincidence that the subjects are classic areas of kusala behavior or states, including giving, purification and fortuitous rebirth, but not including metta, sympathetic joy nor compassion. An interesting selection. > > =============== > > J: I think all levels of kusala are included. I believe the teaching on the heavens (sagga) would include metta, karuna and mudita, since they are conditions for rebirth in the heavenly planes. Thanks, that is a really helpful clarification. I couldn't figure out why those immeasurables would be left out. > PS Apologies for taking so long to get back to you on this and other messages. It has been a very busy period for me. That is never a problem. I like picking these things back whenever they pop up. I am guilty of leaving posts for a long time and then eventually trying to get back to them too. On some other lists people get very annoyed at old posts being revived, but around here everyone seems to understand that it's a long study... :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - > The stock passage (e.g. D. 3; D 14; M. 56) runs as follows: > > "Then the Blessed One gave him a gradual instruction - that is to say, he spoke on liberality ('giving', dana), on moral conduct (sila) and on the heaven (sagga); he explained the peril, the vanity and the depravity of sensual pleasures, and the advantage of renunciation. > "When the Blessed One perceived that the listener's mind was prepared, pliant, free from obstacles, elevated and lucid; then he explained to him that exalted teaching particular to the Buddhas (buddhanam samukkamsika desana), that is: suffering, its cause, its ceasing, and the path." > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #131629 From: "Rajendra Jadhao" Date: Sun Jul 7, 2013 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA intro to Dhamma mastram101 I am sorry for being stupid, but what does TA mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah Sent: 07/07/13 04:01 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: TA intro to Dhamma Dear Alberto & Tony, An excellent transcription, thanks Alberto #131533 --- In dhammastudygroup%40yahoogroups.com , sprlrt@... wrote: > > (Than Acharn, in Hua Hin, 11th, am-A, 18m) > Tony: Long time ago I came across Tibetan Buddhism and I understood that particular doctrine of emptiness and the illusionary nature of reality, <...>; this could give a sense of liberation, 'I understand more now'; but I still feel the same, and nothing changes, so there's an expectation of alleviation of suffering, the more one understands reality, and that doesn't happen, for me anyway, <...> > > TA: Is understanding you or yours? <...> #131630 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 6:39 am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hi Rob E No no no! Jon was/is correct. He thoroughly refuted the prevalent wrong view on walking meditation. He crushed it. Don't forget that that post came from the Useful Posts section. It wouldn't be in there if it were wrong, amigo. Phil #131631 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 9:38 am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hi again Rob E And please remember in Dhamma there is right and wrong. In our daily business in life it is very nice and good to respect various views and decide that they can both be right. That is how people get along in the world, it is necessary. But not possible in Dhamma. Jon was right, or he was wrong. "From the point of view of dhammas" or however you put it is not one of several possible right ways of seeing things, it is the only right way. Dhamma is black and white, no pleasantly fuzzy grey zone in which we can happily share common ground with those who are incorrect. For another example, you can adhere to Htoo's incorrect idea of concentionsl behaviour becoming transparent to reveal dhammas as correct with wrong understanding, , or you can reject it as wrong,with right understanding. But of course this is a momentary thing. A person who has indicated a billion times wrong understanding at DSG can in a moment indicate correct understanding. Indicating being the intimation of cittas with right understanding.) Wanting to believe that there is contradictory right understanding will leave you with a pleasant pablum. Milk and water may be a nice way to get along in the world but when it comes to right and wrong understanding they remain separated. Oil and water. I haven't read your post because I'm not interested in your opinions (or anyone's) on why walking meditation may be anything other than an exercise in greed for pleasant mind states. But if there is anything other than disagreement with Jin you are just fudging. If you are sitting in the fence, in my opinion it is best to get on one side of the fence or the other and stay there for while and see if understanding continues to develop in line with being in that side of the fence. Trying kindly to play along with both sides of the fence will probably mean that you are trying to reformulate the Dhamma to make it work just the way you would ideally like it to be. Just my opinion. Correct, of course. Phil #131632 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 9:55 am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hi again Rob E And by the way not that it really matters but the reason I'm not interested in your opinions on walking meditation is not that I am shutting my mind, it's because I alrwady know what they are. I have been on the meditation/intentional practices side of the fence. I know the opinions because I have had them. Htoo's conventional behaviour becoming transparent to reveal dhammas is very very attractive! _(^o^)^ Phil #131633 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 12:38 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] thomaslaw03 Dear Rod E, and All, --- "Robert E" wrote: > > … Kayanupassana can be practiced any time - no special activities required, …it is not said that one should practice walking meditation, but it is said that one should practice kayanupassana while walking. … the rupas of bodily movement and comportment. T: I think the so-called `walking meditation' possibly originated from the practice of ca'nkamantanti (`walking to and fro'), not kayanupassana, which obviously is more than just walking in awareness. I got the term, ca'nkamantanti, from the book, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 142 (cf. also p. 216 about mindful `sato' and aware `sampajaano' on bodily postures and movements). Regards, Thomas #131634 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 1:56 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hi Rob E > > No no no! Jon was/is correct. He thoroughly refuted the prevalent wrong view on walking meditation. He crushed it. Don't forget that that post came from the Useful Posts section. It wouldn't be in there if it were wrong, amigo. With respect, I think the subject is still open. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #131635 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 1:59 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > And please remember in Dhamma there is right and wrong. Please remember that prior to enlightenment our understanding is necessarily limited. To think you have absolute knowledge of who is right and who is wrong in a dispute between worldlings, however advanced some may be, would be a mistake. I do have a view about the current topic. I also know that my view cannot be thought of as definitely right, because I'm not enlightened. So I go by my understanding and what I see in the scriptures. You may not think you're interpreting the Dhamma when you adopt a view, but you are, for better or for worse. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #131636 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 2:02 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > And by the way not that it really matters but the reason I'm not interested in your opinions on walking meditation is not that I am shutting my mind, it's because I alrwady know what they are. I have been on the meditation/intentional practices side of the fence. I know the opinions because I have had them. Htoo's conventional behaviour becoming transparent to reveal dhammas is very very attractive! _(^o^)^ My points in the post you didn't read were specific to the subject. While they do have a point of view, they're also not just mere random thoughts. If you choose not to read the post, that is fine. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #131637 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] epsteinrob Hi Thomas. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Rod E, and All, > > --- "Robert E" wrote: > > > > … Kayanupassana can be practiced any time - no special activities required, …it is not said that one should practice walking meditation, but it is said that one should practice kayanupassana while walking. … the rupas of bodily movement and comportment. > > T: I think the so-called `walking meditation' possibly originated from the practice of ca'nkamantanti (`walking to and fro'), not kayanupassana, which obviously is more than just walking in awareness. I got the term, ca'nkamantanti, from the book, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 142 (cf. also p. 216 about mindful `sato' and aware `sampajaano' on bodily postures and movements). That is very interesting. Thanks for the information on that. Here is a link to a pdf version of "The Fundamental Teachings" for those interested: http://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/the-fundamental-teachings-of\ -early-buddhism_choong-mun-keat.pdf Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #131638 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA intro to Dhamma nilovg Dear Rajendra, Op 7-jul-2013, om 15:03 heeft Rajendra Jadhao het volgende geschreven: > I am sorry for being stupid, but what does TA mean? ----- N: It is short for Than Acharn, actually this is Thai. Than denotes respect, and Acharn you know, teacher. Nina. #131639 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 8-jul-2013, om 4:38 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > I think the so-called `walking meditation' possibly originated from > the practice of ca'nkamantanti (`walking to and fro'), not > kayanupassana, which obviously is more than just walking in awareness. ------ N: This is also translated as an aley walk, and the advantages have been explained in the sutta. The bhikkhu sits a lot and then it is good for his health to stretch and walk. Also while walking there are naama and ruupa and he can be aware of them. It is just daily life. ------ Nina. #131640 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 4:27 pm Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma sprlrt Hi Rajendra, > what does TA mean? TA is the acronym for Than Acharn, also AS (Ajahn Sujin), and KS (Khun Sujin) are used here in DSG (dhamma study group), in the list's home page you can find notes about her, and more material at http://www.dhammastudygroup.org (pdf books and audio recordings of her Dhamma talks). Alberto #131641 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 6:01 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hi Rob E > > With respect, I think the subject is still open. > Ooh baby, you had me at respect. I'll drop it there. But my point is that I think we have to confirm as strictly as possible to one teacher/ tradition to develop understanding. The kalamite tradition is "think for yourself" but that is highly overrated in my opinion. Over and out on walking meditation. Thanks for the other posts as well, which I haven't read, and won't, as a means to shutting myself up. S(—ά[ά—)ƒm Phil #131642 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 6:05 pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hi again Conform, not confirm. Conformity to the received teaching is key in my opinion. Without Abhidhamma to guide us very very difficult to confirm to a rec'd teaching because suttanta is wide open to self-pleasing interpretations. Ok shut up Phil. Phil #131643 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) tony.humphreys S: So is there only the mind-door through which experience occurs or are there 5 sense-doors too? How many doorways did the Buddha speak about? Did he say that actually there is no eye-door, no body-door in reality, only 'appearances' through the mind door? See Heart Sutra... "no eye, no ear, no touch........." In work now...will post more asap... Tony... #131644 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 9:18 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (3) tony.humphreys > S: So you are saying that 'heat' is "illusory". Is that correct? What is a "mode of existence" otherwise? > T: No heat isn't illusory. It hurts. S: OK, good!! S: So, we can distinguish between the 'appearances' or concepts and what isn't illusory, i.e a reality. So this is the distinction between heat and cooker - the first is a non-illusory reality, the second is a concept or 'appearance'!!! Hi Sarah, No, this too is incorrect (in my understanding) - I feel like there is a fundamental point I am not articulating here. Can you describe something that exists but does not appear to the mind. If so how does it exist without a mind to apprehend it? Nargajuna (et al) would content that for something to exist it has to be an object of mind. If its not an object of mind then it is a non-existent. Heat becomes and object of mind via the sense doorways. Prior to that what is it? Heat/cooker...same. One hurst when touched. The other cooks when turned on. Take away the source of heat (fire, radiation), no heat. Take away the cookers hobs....now the 'cooker' is a 'broken cooker' ...'useless'....etc. More labels. I cannot spot how heat (an apprearance to mind dependent on the arising of certain aggregates) and a cooker (also an apprearance to mind dependent on the arising of certain aggregates) are different. Now the important point is this (I only capitalise as its the crux of the Prasangika stance)... THEY DO EXIST BUT THEIR MODE OF EXISTENCE IS ILLUSORY AND DECEPTIVE. THEY APPEAR TO THE MIND. THEY APPEAR TO EXIST INDEPENDENTLY. AS SOON AS WE LABEL WE'RE LABELING SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST OTHER THAN A CONCEPT IN OUR MINDS. I suspect until the above is grasped we will go round and round in circles. You will continue to offer examples of things that are outside the conceptual. I will then offer a logical explanation as to why this is impossible. Tony.. #131645 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 9:39 pm Subject: Re: TA intro to Dhamma sprlrt Hi Tony (Sarah), > Tony: Long time ago I came across Tibetan Buddhism and I understood that particular doctrine of emptiness and the illusionary nature of reality, Correction, in my transcript I've misspelled 'illusory'. Anyway I think that it's a word more fitting to describe concepts than reality. If its nature is illusory how can it be a reality? it can only be a concept, I think. Alberto #131646 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 11:27 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_012 (DT 899 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Samaadi.m, bhikkhave bhaavetha! Samaadi.m bhaaveto naama ruupa.m yathaabhuta.m jaananti. Jhaayatha, bhikkhave, maa pamaadattha! Some may not like serial fulfilling of achievement of siila, samaadhi, and pa~n~naa. Once Bhaddanta Sariputta heard about Bhaddanta Pu.n.na and he wanted to meet that bhikkhu. When they met they had a conversation. Saariputta asked question to Pu.n.na and Pu.n.na answered with examples. When a king wants to go to a city from another city he has to take a journey. As the journey is long 7 successive carts have to be taken. The king first takes on a cart and then changes another cart after a length of road. This change takes seven times and finally the king reaches the city that he wants to go. The first cart is siilavisuddhi. Second cittavisuddhi, third di.t.thivusuddhi, fourth ki`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi, fifth maggaamagga-~naa.nadassana-visuddhi, sixth pa.tipadaa-~naanadassana-visuddhi, and finally the seventh ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi. Even though this seems serial all seven purifications are required to attain nibbaana. Among the seven one is cittavisuddhi. For cittavisuddhi one has to develop a good concentration. There are many ways to develop a good concentration or samaadhi. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131647 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (3) sukinderpal Hi Tony, > THEY DO EXIST BUT THEIR MODE OF EXISTENCE IS ILLUSORY AND DECEPTIVE. > THEY APPEAR TO THE MIND. THEY APPEAR TO EXIST INDEPENDENTLY. AS SOON > AS WE LABEL WE'RE LABELING SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST OTHER THAN A > CONCEPT IN OUR MINDS. > Are you saying to the effect that nothing exists independently of the mind, and / or what is known must go through an interpretive process whether it is thinking or not? Sukin #131648 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 3:34 am Subject: Re: TA on the blessings philofillet Dear Group >> anyone who doesn't understand realities is living in a blind world, not understanding, just live and die, that's all; but in reality these are different dhatus, citta is one dhatu, cetasikas are dhatus, everything is its own dhatu; In this talk, Ajahn used dhatus to explain that there is no person there, only dhammas. Earlier in the passage she referred to the dhatus that are the four primary elements What has come to be taken for Lukas is fire, earth etc. but that is just rupa, isn't it. So what we take for a person is citta and cetasika and primary rupa and derived rupa. And all these are dhatus. Dhatus all. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > > (Than Acharn, in Poland, 14th, aam, 1m) rstand what is meant by reality or Dhamma. > #131649 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 4:34 am Subject: Re: TA on the blessings philofillet Dear group Just to let you know that Alberto's excellent transcriptions have been placed in a file in the transcriptions folder of the member files. If anyone comes across one that is missing please add it. Phil #131650 From: jadhao@... Date: Mon Jul 8, 2013 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA intro to Dhamma mastram101 Thank you very much, respected friend Nina. Rajendra Jadhao Sent from my android device. -----Original Message----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 11:46 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA intro to Dhamma Dear Rajendra, Op 7-jul-2013, om 15:03 heeft Rajendra Jadhao het volgende geschreven: > I am sorry for being stupid, but what does TA mean? ----- N: It is short for Than Acharn, actually this is Thai. Than denotes respect, and Acharn you know, teacher. Nina. #131651 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 9:37 am Subject: Potential pitfalls when reading suttas philofillet Dear group I have been enjoying re-reading SN35. While it reminds me of the great profundity if the Dhamma, I can also see the stumbling blocks that cause eager modern readers to get caught up in wrong understanding. For example this, from 35:72: " What do you think, bhikkhus, do you regard the eye thus: 'thus is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Good, bhikkhu!" The bhikkhu's ready answer reminded me of the ease with which some people at DSG say that they already know there is no self, so no problem there! That bhikkhu must have had great conditions for understanding, only a lack of humility and common sense would lead a modern reader of suttas (in translation, nonetheless) to believe that his (in my experience, it seems to be a male phenomenon) understanding is anywhere near that of the people learning directly from the Buddha in the suttanta. And so they go on and on accumulating wrong understanding about practices that just serve to further deepen wrong view of self. Suttas are so very deep. It is so easy to read them and misunderstand. We need Abhidhamma and the commentaries and calls to humility from wise friends to stay on the very very gradual path to the development of understanding. Phil P.s We'll see if I am completely contradicting this in a few years! #131652 From: "philip" Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 12:10 pm Subject: The second question philofillet Dear group I heard something great, from Maeve. "If the first question is 'what is citta?' What is the second question?" Ajahn answered immediately. Phil #131653 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 4:31 pm Subject: TA on addictions and good or bad friends sprlrt (Than Acharn, in Poland, 16th, noon) TA: is it (smoking) good for health? Lukas: It's on the packet as well, it's not healthy :-) Sarah: But it's not like drinking alcohol.. TA: the same. S: any kind of intoxicant is the same; so you're saying that it's stronger lobha than ordinary lobha... TA: can one who's so addicted to drugs (be sure) not (to) kill (his/her) parents, when time comes, we don't know - anything. S: because it just shows the strength of the kilesa (defilements) because one cannot give up this kind of attachment, so the way is to really give up this addictions or is to develop understanding and through understanding give up the addictions? TA: accumulate the object which is not so harmful. S: accumulating the attachment for the object which is not so harmful, so like eating more cakes or something like that. TA: anything, anything L: Can there be attachment to another object which is less harmful TA: yes, yes... L: like meditation :-) TA: what do you mean by that? L: I mean like sitting and enjoying pleasant feelings TA: so no understanding - it hinders the development of understanding. S: Alberto, did you asked about smoking? A: No L: Is it helpful to read suttas to be reminded, and jatakas..? TA: even right now L: I cannot read now TA: but you can recall what you've read L: Yes, so it is sutamaya pa~n~na (understanding by hearing) and cintamaya pa~n~na (by considering) TA: right, if you don't throw away what you've read, that can be condition for thinking over it L: yes, about something which is more wholesome than things that are not; so this Dhamma is not so easy at all, it's so deep TA: so deep, so it takes pa~n~na to see the delight for living, too S: So when you asked about smoking and arammanupanissaya paccaya (object as strong support condition), of course it's arammanupanissaya paccaya, what you're saying is arammanupanissaya paccaya for very strong lobha that is more harmful than ordinary lobha, this is your point... TA: That's why we do not associate with the wrong person S: it would encourage one to drink or smoke L: In case one has strong clinging for the bad person, very strong attachment to be associated with bad company, that's really harmful to the practice, to everything, to pa~n~na, I think TA: I think it's said in tipitaka that association with wrong persons is just to help them to be good, that's the only one point, otherwise avoid associating with that person, because it's useless L: but what do you mean by wrong person, wrong friend? TA: ... I (certainly don't) mean :-) when the person does not drag you to improper situations L: Ok, so the right person is (he/she) who is condition for more pa~n~na to arise, TA: (for sure I don't mean he/she) who says that akusala is alright, (or that) you don't have to have kusala L: it's also wrong view, isn't it TA: and that's the more important thing, because who knows that one day, little by little, you'll get such view, by associating with that person; like, in tipitaka a man married a woman from a wrong understanding family L: Even such easy going views such as not being concerned about Dhamma can be induced, <...>, and this is sasankharika (citta & cetasikas), isn't it Ajahn? TA: at that very moment, because it can become asankharika after that, because it (citta) changes all the time from weak to strong. #131654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 5:08 pm Subject: T.A. On not naming realities. nilovg Dear friends, T.A. On not naming realities. Nina: T.A.: Nina: T.A.: ______ Nina. #131655 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 10:38 pm Subject: Re: T.A. On not naming realities. sprlrt Dear Nina, It's my turn now to thank you for your transcript :-), a very good reminder. Yes, the problem is always the same, mistaking realities for selves, while when Ajahn talks it doesn't really matters if she's talking in terms of kusala or akusala, vipaka or kiriya (or rupa), rather than Lukas, Alberto or Nina; like in Abhidhamma or Suttanta, it's all about understanding, by conditions, conditioned realities, no self anywhere there who can make them arising according to one's wishes or who can prevent them from falling away the following instant. Alberto > T.A.: #131656 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 9, 2013 11:25 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Wandering mind is upset and unrest. Different objects appear at five sense doors or mind door in uncooperated manner. Mind is spread all over here and there. To calm down this wild mind there are 40 kamma.t.thaanas. Even though there describes there are 40 kamma.t.thaanas the most appropriate one is aanaapaanassati or breathing meditation. The name breathing meditation is not good. Better one is aanaapaanassati. There are 10 kasi.na kamma.t.thaanas, 10 asubha kamma.t.thaanas, 10 anussati kamma.t.thaana, 4 brahmaavihaaras, 4 aaruppa kamma.t.thaanas, 1 ahaarepa.tikulasa~n~naa kamma.t.thaana and 1 catudhaatuvavatthaana kammatthaanas. Aanaapaanassati is universal kamma.t.thaana. All Sammaasambuddhas take aanaapaanassati as their kamma.t.thaana just before they attain enlightenment and sabba~n~nuta ~naa.na. Our Lord Buddha also used aanaapaanassati as primary kamma.t.thaana before He attain pubbenivaasa ~naa.na, dibbacakkhu ~naa.na, aasavakkhaya ~naa.na and sabba~n~nuta ~naa.na. Bodhisatta Siddhattha Gotama met Aa.laara Kaalaama who attained 7th jhaana. Bodhisatta did not like it because it was not the answer to end-of-sufferings even though he attained 7th jhaana within a short time. He departed and then met Udaka Raamaputta who attained 8th jhaana. He deserted this again and went for Himself. After 6 years of intensive searching and practising He knew all what He had did in the past 6 years were futile and deserted them. After taking full physical strength He sat on grass-bed at the root of Bo tree of Banyan and thought over. He remembered that when He was a month He absorbed in 1st jhaana. Then He started aanaapaanassati to step on 1st jhaana. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131657 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:33 am Subject: Re: Quote from Survey. 2. moellerdieter Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used. > ... > D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '. ... S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the time, when they heard descriptions about different individuals, there was no doubt that what was being described were various elements, various khandhas, no atta at all. ... D:> As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand > your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding ... S: That's a new word for me! D: I stumbled upon the word in the dictionary ..amusing origin , I wonder about the pronounciation ;-) S:As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised. D: I can't recall such statement ....wondering whether you would agree to that the 4 Noble Truths cannot deeply penetrated without understanding why ' the five clinging-aggregates (in other words citta,cetasikha and rupa attachment) are, in short, suffering' ?. ... > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now? > > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta : ... S: You give many quotes, but I don't see any reference to "the samadhi sequence" or any suggestion of the path factors arising in sequences or steps. D: I assumed you would read the Culavedalla Sutta: 'Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated." "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?" "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." example Dhammapada: 281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind, and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage. 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase i.e. 281: sila . 282: samadhi and panna as mentioned the Buddha spoke in numerous suttas of the path training :sila, samadhi, panna. S:Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now? D:I did not say that the path factors arising in sequences .. but - as it has been stated - that the training in virtue provides the support for the training of the samadhi part , which gives support for the panna part What is wrong with calling the gradual training 'steps' ? quoting again: Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch. - Ud 5.5 Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70 with Metta Dieter #131658 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:02 am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] epsteinrob Hi Phil. Kept this very short so you may read it. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Over and out on walking meditation. Thanks for the other posts as well, which I haven't read, and won't, as a means to shutting myself up. S(—ά[ά—)ƒm Your non-reading of posts is very "zen." Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #131659 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:07 am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] philofillet Hi Rob E > > > Over and out on walking meditation. Thanks for the other posts as well, which I haven't read, and won't, as a means to shutting myself up. S(—ά[ά—)ƒm > > Your non-reading of posts is very "zen." Hmm. Feels a bit too strategic for Zen. But yes, it does represent a very very very profound form of wisdom. (P€P) Phil #131660 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:24 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) kenhowardau Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Wandering mind is upset and unrest. ------------- KH: In reality, this upset, unrested mind last for only one nama-moment, which is the shortest possible period of time. The other type of mind, the one known to uninstructed worldlings, can be upset and unrested for long periods of time. According to the Buddha's Dhamma, this worldling-known mind does not really exist. ------- > H: Different objects appear at five sense doors or mind door in uncooperated manner. Mind is spread all over here and there. To calm down this wild mind there are 40 kamma.t.thaanas. Even though there describes there are 40 kamma.t.thaanas the most appropriate one is aanaapaanassati or breathing meditation. ------- KH: Uninstructed worldlings practice various kinds of meditations including breath meditations, which are the most popular. Amongst those uninstructed worldlings there can be some extremely moral individuals who have the panna to know kusala from akusala. Those rare individuals (probably no longer found in the world) are able to meditate with kusala cittas. The rest of us lack such panna, and our meditation is almost entirely akusala. If we are really misguided, we can make the mistake of believing that meditation without panna is the way to develop kusala. In that case we are in dangerous territory indeed, and our meditation is actually developing more akusala. (!) It is imperative that we realise this danger. But to whom is it imperative? According to the Buddha's Dhamma there is no one who follows the path to hell, just as there is no one who follows the path to nibbana. Therefore, there is no one for whom the choice of path is imperative. Even so, when the occasion arises, we still say "Stop, you are going the wrong way!" :-) Ken H #131661 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:36 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) philofillet Hi Ken H (Htoo) - > > > > Wandering mind is upset and unrest. > ------------- > > KH: In reality, this upset, unrested mind last for only one nama-moment, which is the shortest possible period of time. Ph: calm (samattha) arises for a moment and falls away again. It arises with every kusala moment. > The other type of mind, the one known to uninstructed worldlings, can be upset and unrested for long periods of time. According to the Buddha's Dhamma, this worldling-known mind does not really exist. Ph: But the (understandable) desire to have ongoing periods of calm sets people off on the most extraordinary adventures, such as doing everything in slow motion in a center full of other people doing things in slow motion, all the time wrapped in "noble silence." I too am quite attached ( but can do without it) to my morning meditation during which I can experience on going states of pseudo-samattha. Feels great! And in my experience these periods of pseudo-samattha do have a power to condition to less knee-jerk reactivity to vipallasa during the hours that follow, so for people who are prone to violent anger or destructive lust this so called "meditation" is beneficial I think. But people who can't see that it isn't bhavana will forever be deprived of Dhamma. Phil #131662 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:40 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) philofillet Hi again Wow, my iPhone auto-spellcheck changed "vipaka" to "vipalassa" in the previous post. Phil #131663 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:14 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) kenhowardau Hi Phil, ----- <. . .> > Ph: I too am quite attached ( but can do without it) to my morning meditation during which I can experience on going states of pseudo-samattha. Feels great! ----- KH: It sounds like you are one of those glass-half-full people, in which case good for you! I, on the other hand, am probably a glass-half-empty type, and any revisiting of the old pseudo-samatha days only brings sad thoughts. I think of all those poor misguided beings who are turning their backs on the Buddha's teaching and following paths to hell. I'll settle for a morning cup of coffee! :-) Ken H #131664 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:20 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) philofillet Hi Ken H > ----- > > KH: It sounds like you are one of those glass-half-full people, in which case good for you! Yeah, I was thinking about this. My feeling is that our accumulated greed for pleasant mind states is going to have us seeking them one way or another. If I can have my fix of mental mind states through pseudo-samattha, maybe there will be less looking for pleasant mind states in my Dhamma study. U think we have to be honest about how much pleasure seeking there is in our contemplation of dhammas at times, or to put it another way how much escaping aversion there is in our contemplation of dhammas. > I, on the other hand, am probably a glass-half-empty type, and any revisiting of the old pseudo-samatha days only brings sad thoughts. I think of all those poor misguided beings who are turning their backs on the Buddha's teaching and following paths to hell. > > I'll settle for a morning cup of coffee! :-) > I think that is commendable. And courageous. Meditation (pseudo-samattha) is such a reliable form of escape from/protection against aversion, like alcohol can be for some. Phil #131665 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:27 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > >S: No self to see anything and impossible for panna to "continuously see". Such an idea is bound to lead to efforts to try and be aware continuously with an idea of self, surely? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > It is certain almost all people in this world are drown in concept. You cannot avoid. Ledi and Kyanungpan released self in the earlier state before vipassana. ... S: What do you mean by this last sentence? It makes no sense to me. ... >Here you would ask what is vipassana. It is satipatthana. You would ask what is satipatthana. Satipatthana is one of four. What are four. You know and members of DSG know. ... S: It is satipatthana/vipassana understanding which knows dhammas as anatta. No person who can "release self" in some "earlier state". ... > Still they were and they are puthujanas. I think almost 100% of DSG members are puthujana. Today there are 807 member. No one is arahat.(Once someone admitted he was an arahat. I spoke(wrote) to him. He was shattered regarding jhana. He wrongly expressed on jhana. > > Arahats in these days are all Buddhist-monks. If a person who is lay people becomes an arahat he has to do parinibbana on that same day as non-monk. But if there is still life-span the arahat joins the Buddha's sasana which is his teacher's sasana. ... S: No arahats today, whether monks or lay people. This was as described by the Buddha during the decline of the Teachings. Questionable as to whether there is even any attainment of jhanas today or not. Those who usually point to jhana attainments (or any attainments) have little idea what they're talking about. In another message you seemed to be casting doubt on what is taught in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. This is a shame. Better to listen to what the Buddha and ancient commentators taught than modern commentators and meditation teachers who cast doubts on these Teachings. You mentioned quibbles, such as the number of cetasikas and how this is different from what is taught in the Dhammasangani. We've gone over these points many times - in the Dhammasangani, for example, many different names are given for one cetasika, so the number is different. The Teaching is the same - all about the realities of life now - not in a remote forest or on another island. Metta Sarah === #131666 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:33 pm Subject: Hearing and understanding ( was Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6 sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > We think this very commonplace but Ajahn in recent years makes a point several times in talks I have heard to call these ordinary processes "miraculous" or "amazing." (Is this my imagination?) . Because the processes are so swift? Because the Buddha was able to penetrate them to the degree he did? Because they are anatta, arising without any kind of self in charge? ... S: Because of the "amazing" way that the ayatanas come together in order for an experience to occur. We read about how this is like the balancing on a needle point: For example, MN 148 Chachakka Sutta: "Dependent on the eye and forms there arises consciousness of the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain." S: By a complex interaction of these conditions, such dhammas 'come together' momentarily. They "balance like seeds on needle points." (Vism XX, 72). Metta Sarah ====== #131667 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Javanas after seeing? Dunno. Assume akusala. sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Related to the topic of what arises after seeing etc., today I heard Lukas ask Ajahn about vinnana cariya, annana cariya and nanna cariya. If I understood correctly, the second refers to akusala that arises after seeing etc and the latter refers to kusala. "Cariya" refers to behaviour of the citta, is that what she said? ... S: Yes, cariya is behaviour, here the behaviour of cittas, whereby vinnana cariya refers to rootless cittas, such as seeing or hearing, annana cariya to akusala cittas and nana cariya to insight only, not other kinds of kusala. So all day, unless there is the development of right understanding, there are just ahetuka (rootless) vipaka cittas, followed by akusala, most of the time - on and on and on. ... >Why would this be worth knowing about? To better appreciate the anattaness of cittas performing functions? Maybe not. Just knowing about cittas performing functions is enough. Maybe no point about knowing what "cariyas" are...but too late, gotta gotta know! ... S: Yes, just to understand that this is how cittas arise, perform their functions on and on. Usually, vipaka and other ahetuka cittas followed by lobha, dosa and moha all day long, unless there is the development of right understanding of dhammas. Thanks for the reminder. Metta Sarah ===== #131668 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Javanas after seeing? Dunno. Assume akusala. sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Also related to this after seeing, always thinking. I should know this, but what makes thinking kusala or akusala? ... S: Accumulated tendencies. Remember natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya)? This is the condition by which attachment arising now accumulates and conditions more attachment in future. So it depends on past accumulations (and other conditions) as to whether kusala or akusala arises now. ... >The subject of the thinking? ... S: No, it's not the object, but the way of thinking. When we think of a person, it's usually with attachment, aversion or ignorance, but for an arahat, no such attachment. Metta Sarah ===== #131669 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:46 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, and All, > ... > S: It is satipatthana/vipassana understanding which knows dhammas as anatta. ... T: It seems that satipatthana is not the same practice of vipassana. Satipatthana is the practice for mindfulness/concentration, but vipassana is the practice for insight/wisdom. Regards, Thomas #131670 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:01 pm Subject: A.Sujin - just daily life... sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Lukas has just mentioned that he likes to go to movies in the evening in Bangkok. He likes action movies, but suggests at such times he forgets all about the Dhamma he's been reading. AS: Just to be forgotten. This is the way to become detached from clinging. L: Because my mind just gets absorbed totally in this pleasure and such things like this girl is nice and all the movements and... AS: It can be object of understanding when there are conditions. That's why we learn a lot in order to....... L: So daily life, no matter what it is. AS: Right, right, otherwise there will be clinging to take this or that for self when it's not daily life. L: Thank you. ***** Metta Sarah ===== #131671 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:10 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, Without the development of satipatthana (the right understanding of realities), there can be no insight, no vipassana nanas, beginning with the clear distinction between namas and rupas. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > S: It is satipatthana/vipassana understanding which knows dhammas as anatta. ... > > T: It seems that satipatthana is not the same practice of vipassana. Satipatthana is the practice for mindfulness/concentration, but vipassana is the practice for insight/wisdom. ===== #131672 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:20 pm Subject: To be more detached from realities philofillet Dear group Today I heard Ajahn say "to be more detached from realities" instead of to better understand realities. Is to be detached from realities the same as to understand realities because understanding is kusala and with kusala there must be alobha? Phil #131673 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:38 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sarah to Thomas: Dear Thomas, Without the development of satipatthana (the right understanding of realities), there can be no insight, no vipassana nanas, beginning with the clear distinction between namas and rupas. Metta Sarah ----------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > S: It is satipatthana/vipassana understanding which knows dhammas as anatta. ... > > > > T: It seems that satipatthana is not the same practice of vipassana. Satipatthana is the practice for mindfulness/concentration, but vipassana is the practice for insight/wisdom. --------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah and Thomas, satipatthaana is a complete set to attain nibbaana. The sutta.m was preached to the audience all bhikkhus. The major one was preached at Kammaasadhamma Nigama (large village with market place). Some portions had also been preached in other areas. Tipitaka when compressed is about 37 bodipakkhiya dhamma. Again when it is narrowed down there are 8 magga`nga dhammas. Among 8 magganga dhamma sammaa-ditthi come first. Sammaaditthi is the leader. Sammaaditthi comprises panna. Wild mind has to be tamed before getting to magganga dhamma. This is performed by the earlier part described in satipatthaana suttam. When the mind is tamed it has to follow according to satipatthaana. In Buddha time, bhikkhus groups by groups approached the Buddha and asked for kammatthaana appropriate for them. This seems to be for samatha. Samatha helps vipassana in may ways. Once a man was dying and Saariputta went there and preached metta bhaavana. The man happily passed away with metta jhaana and next patisandhi became Brahma. The Buddha disproved Saariputta and asked him to go Brahma sphere and to preach catusacca kammatthaana. After that Brahma became an arahat. Satipatthaana is a complete set and Buddha indicated that who follow the path as he describes will attain arahatta magga in 7 years. There are many nayas in Buddha teachings. 7 years is for most people who can follow the path. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131674 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:52 pm Subject: T.A. on Understanding without words. nilovg Dear friends, Understanding without words. ------- Nina. #131675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 10-jul-2013, om 15:38 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende geschreven: > In Buddha time, bhikkhus groups by groups approached the Buddha and > asked for kammatthaana appropriate for them. This seems to be for > samatha. Samatha helps vipassana in may ways. ------ N: I remember the text. I was interested in the notion of kammatthaana and then read in the commentary that this refers to satipa.t.thaana. When vipassanaa is being developed there is also calm, samatha. Calm naturally accompanies the citta with right understanding. Not necessarily of the level of jhaana. ----- Nina. #131676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To be more detached from realities nilovg Dear Phil, Op 10-jul-2013, om 12:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Today I heard Ajahn say "to be more detached from realities" > instead of to better understand realities. > Is to be detached from realities the same as to understand > realities because understanding is kusala and with kusala there > must be alobha? ------ N: When we learn that whatever appears is only a naama or ruupa which do not stay at all, which have gone when you start to think about them, it must lead to less clinging. We cling to dear people we believe exist, but in fact what are they? Only naama and ruupa that pass away immediately. Nina. #131677 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hi Htoo, > Dear Sarah and Thomas, satipatthaana is a complete set to attain > nibbaana. The sutta.m was preached to the audience all bhikkhus. The > major one was preached at Kammaasadhamma Nigama (large village with > market place). Some portions had also been preached in other areas. > > Tipitaka when compressed is about 37 bodipakkhiya dhamma. Again when > it is narrowed down there are 8 magga`nga dhammas. Among 8 magganga > dhamma sammaa-ditthi come first. Sammaaditthi is the leader. > Sammaaditthi comprises panna. > > Wild mind has to be tamed before getting to magganga dhamma. This is > performed by the earlier part described in satipatthaana suttam. When > the mind is tamed it has to follow according to satipatthaana. > > In Buddha time, bhikkhus groups by groups approached the Buddha and > asked for kammatthaana appropriate for them. This seems to be for > samatha. Samatha helps vipassana in may ways. > Does this mean that all those who could attain jhana during the Buddha's time understood the Buddha's teachings more readily than those who did not? Are those living the household life less receptive to the Dhamma than monks who lived a more simple life? What connection is there between the understanding which sees danger in sense contacts and one which understands the present dhamma, be it kuslaa, akusala or avyakata, as conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta? Metta, Sukin #131678 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: Does this mean that all those who could attain jhana during the Buddha's time understood the Buddha's teachings more readily than those who did not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The answer is in your question. This question is something like leading question used in court where the judge does not allow. The dhamma anatta is unique. While in su~n~na kappas there is no arahat and even no sotapanna. So no one knows anatta. As I wrote in recent replies and posts there are 3 kinds of individual who know anatta. Without teachers is for sammaasambuddhas and also for paccekabuddhas. Paccekabuddhas can discuss dhamma. But they are not able to change the view of puthujanas. Silent buddhas is not appropriate term. Because paccekabuddhas do speak. Example: "Icchita.m patthita.m tu.myha.m kippameva samijjhatu..." Paccekabuddhas do speak. The third individual is savaka. They just know anatta only after hearing teaching message from sammaasambuddha directly or indirectly. Jhaana can be attain even in sunna kappas. Bodisatta deserted Aa.laara kaalaama and Udaka Raamaputta (7th jhaana and 8th jhaana owner) because there is no essence of dhamma. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Are those living the household life less receptive to the Dhamma than monks who lived a more simple life? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This depends on paaramii. This depends on accumulations. There were two populations in Buddha time. 1. Lay people 2. Bhikkhus (monks) There were many sotapanna in lay people whereas fewer in monks. There were many arahats and many anaagaa.m in monks where as fewer in monks. There was no arahat in lay people. Only a few exceptions. When a lay people becomes an arahat he has to parinibbaana on that same day if there is no duty to save sattaa-veneyya. If there is duty he has to enter the saasanaa as a monk. Aarahatship is not suit to household life. But anaagaa.m can stay in household. Individual can attain if there are conditions and lay people and monks have equal chance (if you think). This is for sotapatti magga naana. But for higher magga naana monks excel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: What connection is there between the understanding which sees danger in sense contacts and one which understands the present dhamma, be it kuslaa, akusala or avyakata, as conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta? Metta, Sukin --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mind is so fast. Mind comprises cittas. When it says 'mind' this seems 'mind is permanent one'. But citta is not in this matter. Citta just lasts a moment. In a blink or in a time when fingers are flicked there happens more than 1,000,000,000,000 cittas. Who see these cittas except Sammaasambuddha? Can you see? Dhammasa`nga.nii describes there are kusala, akusala, and abyaakata. 1. kusala (sinless, flawless,errorless) 2. akusala(sinful) 3. abyaakata (neither kusala nor akusala_abyaakato). Kusala and akusala only arise while in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas also arise in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas are abyaakata. Vipaaka cittas are also abyaakata. Can you see patisandhi cittas? Can you see cuti cittas? Can you see bhava`nga cittas? Cittas are very fast. One is immediately replaced by next arising citta when vanishes and santati is so maintained in this way covering the mind-eyes of puthujanas. Those who never know anatta may see the danger of sense contacts. Very present moment is difficult to see. When some fact is understood this is done by panna-led-kaamavacara-kusala-javana-cittas. At this time there is no more original object for most manodvaaraviitti. Speaking is easy. Writing is easy. To see dhamma is not so easy. Close your eyes! Then open your eyes! What do you see? If you see as usual then the lineage has not been changed yet. If you see differently this has to be checked by living ariiyas like arahats or anaagaa.ms. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131679 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... N: I remember the text. I was interested in the notion of kammatthaana and then read in the commentary that this refers to satipa.t.thaana. When vipassanaa is being developed there is also calm, samatha. Calm naturally accompanies the citta with right understanding. Not necessarily of the level of jhaana. ----- Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, takkavacara things are easy for intelligent people. You (Nina), Jon, Sarah, Sukin, Rob-s, and many others here in DSG have high understanding on dhamma. This because you all have well studied and exchanged understanding. Dhamma teachers teach dhamma to first comers from simple and easily understable things. But in Vipassanaa Centres after initial instruction the followers have to do what they are instructed. After a time their understanding is checked by dhamma-teachers. This seems that those who come to centres have some necessary knowledge. In Ledi Sayadaw's time there were many lay people and many monks who totally changed in their actions (Kaaya, vacii, --- ). Even mano were checked by Ledi Sayadaw. In early time when the follower though something bad Sayadaw directly told that person not to think in that way. With much respect, Htoo Naing #131680 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:59 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: ----It is imperative that we realise this danger. But to whom is it imperative? According to the Buddha's Dhamma there is no one who follows the path to hell, just as there is no one who follows the path to nibbana. Therefore, there is no one for whom the choice of path is imperative. Even so, when the occasion arises, we still say "Stop, you are going the wrong way!" :-) Ken H --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Ken H, Regarding path there are two paths. 1. micchaa magga`ngas (magga)_wrong path 2. sammaa magga`ngas (magga)_right path There existed people who followed the path to hell. The Buddha preached not to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Micchaa magga`nga when arise lead to 4 woeful states. With thanks, Htoo Naing #131681 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:28 am Subject: Vipassanaa_014 (DT 901 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads discuss on many dhammas. Now it has been changed to 'Vipassanaa' because discussion approaches to vipassanaa of 'kamma.t.thaana portion of abhidhammatthasa`ngaha text'. This text was developed 1000 years after the Buddha at Tumulasoma Monastry in Srila`nkaa. I have been posting for discussions and debates. The posts are mostly contents from dhamma texts and dhamma books and even from live bhikkhus. To attain magga for the first time is to say to become a sotaapanna. To become a sotaapanna one needs a teacher that is ariya teacher. 'Sakkaaya pahaanaaya aacariyaa pariyesitabbo'. Upatissa parivaajaka (Saarii's son = Saariputta) met an ariya Baddanta Assaji and he heard a verse from B. Assaji, who was an arahat. Before the end of the verse that is in the midth Upatissa became a sotapanna. Since then Saariputta slept with his head directed to B. Assaji not to the Buddha even though the Dhamma is the Buddha's findings or message. To become a sotapanna may not be difficult. But to become a sakadaagaa.m is a bit more difficult, for an anaagaa.m more more difficult and for an arahat the most difficult. When one becomes a sotapanna whenever he goes into samapatti he falls on sotapatti phala samaapatti. He has to jump on to sakadaagaami magga. This needs stronger samaadhi. The Buddha did not congratulate who still in the middle of the path (to nibbaana_anupaadisesa nibbaana). Buddha wanted His all disciples to become arahats not just sotapanna or sakadaagaa.m or anaagaa.m. This is why the Buddha also taught samatha to bhikkhus. In Buddha's time all arahats(bhikkhus) stayed under the shade of a tree and this is called 'viharati'. Viharati has more meaning than just 'live'. It is living in satipatthaana. Arahats all finished their jobs and no more is needed. But they still did 'viharati'. New bhikkhus also did 'viharati'. That is they did satipatthaana. When the rain came it is called 'vassa'. In such time the bhikkhus do not have to travel long or short journey. This last for three months. For these three months new bhikkhus (puthujanas) also asked for kammatthaana from their teacher Buddha. I think samatha is a requisite for bhikkhus. Even in Vinaya bhikkhus are instructed to do samatha-vipassana. For lay people if they are able to see dhamma rightly samatha is not necessarily required (to jhaana degree). But for higher 3 path-consciousness samatha is required. N.B. An ant cannot bear Mount Meru. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131682 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:46 am Subject: Re: To be more detached from realities epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear group > > Today I heard Ajahn say "to be more detached from realities" instead of to better understand realities. > Is to be detached from realities the same as to understand realities because understanding is kusala and with kusala there must be alobha? Understanding causes detachment. Panna directly understands the non-satisfying, non-self nature of dhammas and detaches from them. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - #131683 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:10 am Subject: Re: To be more detached from realities philofillet Hi Rob E > Understanding causes detachment. Panna directly understands the non-satisfying, non-self nature of dhammas and detaches from them. > Yes I suppose that could be true. But it would have to be the rarefied functioning of a kusala dhamma(s) rather than self thinking with pleasure about having insight into deep liberating topics. That is what "insight" is when I am involved and I'm pretty certain that is a common working of kilesas. Phil #131684 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:13 am Subject: Re: The second question philofillet Dear group > I heard something great, from Maeve. > > "If the first question is 'what is citta?' What is the second question?" > > Ajahn answered immediately. The second question (and the question that Ajahn always brings us back to) is "is there citta ( or some other reality) now?" Phil #131685 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:17 am Subject: Re: Javanas after seeing? Dunno. Assume akusala. philofillet Dear Sarah > ... > > >The subject of the thinking? > ... > S: No, it's not the object, but the way of thinking. When we think of a person, it's usually with attachment, aversion or ignorance, but for an arahat, no such attachment. > Thank you for this and the other posts. I am fortunate to have a friend like you whose answers I can accept as correct without a second thought. Phil #131686 From: "azita" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:15 am Subject: Re: The second question gazita2002 Hallo PHil, Then the 3rd question could be " is there any understanding of the reality which appears now?" patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear group > > > I heard something great, from Maeve. > > > > "If the first question is 'what is citta?' What is the second question?" > > > > Ajahn answered immediately. > > > The second question (and the question that Ajahn always brings us back to) is "is there citta ( or some other reality) now?" > > Phil > #131687 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) kenhowardau Hi Htoo, --- <. . .> >> KH: According to the Buddha's Dhamma there is no one who follows the path to hell, just as there is no one who follows the path to nibbana. <. . .> >> > Htoo: <. . .> There existed people who followed the path to hell. The Buddha preached not to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. --- KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. For the sake of convenience we often use words such as "the Buddha existed" and "the Buddha preached to people" but are we ready for that convenience? I think most of us are not ready. When we use conventional language in our Dhamma discussions we inadvertently think there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. That is a fundamental error, of course, and so we must do everything we can to avoid it. Before using concepts to describe the Dhamma we must thoroughly understand the difference between concepts and realities. And when we see our Dhamma friends forgetting that difference we must promptly remind them. Ken H #131688 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:09 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) thomaslaw03 "Ken H" wrote: > ... > KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. > > ... conventional language in our Dhamma discussions ... there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. > T: So, in reality there are 'no' paramattha dhammas. Thomas #131689 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:00 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, Hi Ken H > > KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. > > For the sake of convenience we often use words such as "the Buddha existed" and "the Buddha preached to people" but are we ready for that convenience? > > I think most of us are not ready. When we use conventional language in our Dhamma discussions we inadvertently think there are two worlds  the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. > > That is a fundamental error, of course, and so we must do everything we can to avoid it. Before using concepts to describe the Dhamma we must thoroughly understand the difference between concepts and realities. And when we see our Dhamma friends forgetting that difference we must promptly remind them. Interesting. We're not ready to use conventional terming because we get trapped in it? So as we move from conventional understanding to paramattha understanding there is a stage where we must be insistent in saying (as you always do) that there are only dhammas irregardless of people like me who say that is premature, that understanding must develop to be able to say that. I remember I once said to Sarah that I though Ken H was too radical about anatta but she said it is impossible to be too radical about anatta. On the other hand it seems Robert K often takes you to task about something, I can never quite understand what it is. If Robert K's understanding and your understanding part way on some point it might be good to clarify what it is. Or not. Anyways, thank you for putting a word in to counter the Sayadaw Mahasi propogated wring view that Htoo is posting these days. I know your aversion for TB, I think SM is much more dangerous because TB is so obviously wrong while SM uses Abhidhamma to lend himself a veneer of deep Dhamma. Then again TB has his authority as major translator to the West. They are both harmful. But why do we care? There are only dhammas. Why can't we just mind them and forget the stories about people being misled etc? Phil #131690 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:07 am Subject: Re: The second question philofillet Hi Azita > > Then the 3rd question could be " is there any understanding of the reality which appears now?" > Interesting. Cuz sometimes dhammas are arising (yes to the second question) but don't appear to our awareness? (No to the 3rd question.) or maybe the 3rd question could be Is the reality appearing and the 4th could be is there understanding of it? What is seeing? Is there seeing now? Does seeing appear? Is there understanding of seeing that appears now? Does that make sense or are the second and third questions redundant? Phil Phil #131691 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:35 am Subject: Re: Javanas after seeing? Dunno. Assume akusala. philofillet Hi Sarah (or any student of Abhidhamma) > > > > >The subject of the thinking? > > ... > > S: No, it's not the object, but the way of thinking. When we think of a person, it's usually with attachment, aversion or ignorance, but for an arahat, no such attachment. Is the object of thinking always a concept? Can the object of thinking be a reality? The kind of concept that refers to a reality, I guess. Phil #131692 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) sukinderpal > > T: So, in reality there are 'no' paramattha dhammas. > > Thomas > Suk: So, in reality there is nothing. Sukin #131693 From: "sukinderpal narula" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) sukinderpal --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > > > > > T: So, in reality there are 'no' paramattha dhammas. > > > > Thomas > > > > Suk: So, in reality there is nothing. > Suk: Sorry, there should have been a question mark at the end. "So, in reality there is nothing?" Sukin #131694 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:22 pm Subject: Do we have to think a lot? philofillet Dear group. Today I heard this exchange from India 2004, Pattna pt.4: Jon: well suppose compassion arises, there is bound to be thoughts that follow (about what is to be done to help) AS: Do we have to think a lot? Jon: well I suppose we think a lot (about anything) AS: Think less. ********** I found this interesting. Often we hear that thinking isn't the problem, it's just another reality to be known, but here AS is suggesting the value of thinking less. Of course this is in a proper context, that when there is awareness of realities, there is less getting caught up in stories about realities. Obviously she is not saying that we should try to think less. That would be self at work, trying to control dhammas, and would be utterly mad. ( You can be sure there are lots of teachers that teach it, though. ) Do we have to think a lot? Usually yes, by accumulated habits. Should we try to stop? Nope. Will there be less thinking if there is more awareness of realities. Yes. We will think less. Should there be trying to have awareness of realities so there will be less thinking? Nope. Phil #131695 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:25 pm Subject: Re: Do we have to think a lot? philofillet Hello again Oops. > when there is awareness of realities, there is less getting caught up in stories about realities. Should have been stories about concepts, ie people and things. Phil #131696 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: People seen as visible object or visible object seen as people? philofillet Dear group Here is another thing from the Patthna talk. Do we say people are seen as visible object or visible object is seen as people? Not so tricky, really. Phil #131697 From: sprlrt@... Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:04 pm Subject: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Dear Htoo, Dieter, Why samatha (calmness) in not included in the perfections (the wholesome conditions that need to be developed/accumulated for a very long time, by those whose ultimate goal is to attain enlightenment in the four noble truths)? Pa~n~na (understanding realities) is parami, it needs to be developed for that goal. Sacca (the truth, what is real) needs to be developed too (by hearing and considering it, again and again and again), and also dana (giving), sila (virtue), renunciation (nekkhama), energy (viriya), khanti (patience), adhitthana (resolution), metta, and equanimity (upekkha) are all parami. Why not samatha? Alberto #131698 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------ <. . .> > Ph: Interesting. We're not ready to use conventional terming because we get trapped in it? ------ KH: Yes, I think so. If I am ever asked by a raw beginner to explain the Dhamma I will use as little conventional language as possible. ---------- Ph: So as we move from conventional understanding to paramattha understanding there is a stage where we must be insistent in saying (as you always do) that there are only dhammas irregardless of people like me who say that is premature, that understanding must develop to be able to say that. I remember I once said to Sarah that I though Ken H was too radical about anatta but she said it is impossible to be too radical about anatta. ----------- KH: There seems to be a problem sometimes with my attitude. :-) But that is my own fault because, to some extent, I have cultivated a bad-boy image at DSG - just to be different. I try to say the same things the DSG dinosaurs are saying but in my own, not so tactful, way. As I always say, if there is ever any difference in substance (not just in presentation) please point it out! ----------------- > Ph: On the other hand it seems Robert K often takes you to task about something, I can never quite understand what it is. If Robert K's understanding and your understanding part way on some point it might be good to clarify what it is. Or not. ----------------- KH: There was definitely a disagreement of some kind for a while, but I could never quite figure out what we were disagreeing about. -------------------------- > Ph: Anyways, thank you for putting a word in to counter the Sayadaw Mahasi propogated wrong view that Htoo is posting these days. I know your aversion for TB, I think SM is much more dangerous -------------------------- KH: Glad to be of service; you help me with TB and I'll help you with SM. :-) ------------- <. . .> > Ph: They are both harmful. But why do we care? There are only dhammas. Why can't we just mind them and forget the stories about people being misled etc? ------------- KH: I agree, when there is right understanding there is no concern that people (atta) are being misled. But even so, we should continue our crusades if we think we can do some good. Who knows, there might be someone out there who needs to hear the Dhamma exactly the way you or I explain it. Ken H #131699 From: "philip" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Hi again Sarah, group > > > Each conditioned reality is a khandha, so not sure why you ask your last question. > > > Ok. I had been operating under an assumption (probably a wrong teaching picked up from listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi talks a few years ago) that khandas referred to all five together but I can see that only one at a time could be object of awareness so what you say above makes sense. > I guess it wasn't some incorrect BB thing, I see in Conditions that the 4 nama khandas arise together by mutuality/conascence condition. And citta can't arise without rupa as its base, right? So the khandas always arise together. I guess the question I asked whether atta view is akin to the khandas came from wondering whether since the khandas arise together the view of self comes from this conascence. But no, because the Buddha doesn't say this ( as far as I can recall) he says seeing is self, eye is self, visible object is self etc. I think I will have a read through SN 22 to clarify this. Phil #131700 From: "Tony H" Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sukin (et al) tony.humphreys Hi Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: T: "THEY DO EXIST BUT THEIR MODE OF EXISTENCE IS ILLUSORY AND DECEPTIVE. THEY APPEAR TO THE MIND. THEY APPEAR TO EXIST INDEPENDENTLY. AS SOON AS WE LABEL WE'RE LABELING SOMETHING THAT DOES NOT EXIST OTHER THAN A CONCEPT IN OUR MINDS." Sukin: Are you saying to the effect that nothing exists independently of the mind, and / or what is known must go through an interpretive process whether it is thinking or not? When a flag blows in the wind, what moves - the flag or your mind? The title of these thread is misleading. Can heat be separate from its appearance? Heat AND its appearance implies there is 'heat'...then there is ITS appearance. Almost as though there is this entity called heat that has qualities, one of which is its appearance. This is how it appears, but NOT how it exists. Think about it, what can you describe as existing outside of the mind. I certainly cannot think of anything, and if I did it would be a thought. Not heat, hardness, sound either. I would point out that 'mind' too is a concept as is Shunyata/Emptiness. Emptiness too is 'empty' - See Heart Sutra. #131701 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:29 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, ---- > Htoo: <. . .> There existed people who followed the path to hell. The Buddha preached not to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. > --- > > KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. > > For the sake of convenience we often use words such as "the Buddha existed" and "the Buddha preached to people" but are we ready for that convenience? > > I think most of us are not ready. When we use conventional language in our Dhamma discussions we inadvertently think there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. > > That is a fundamental error, of course, and so we must do everything we can to avoid it. Before using concepts to describe the Dhamma we must thoroughly understand the difference between concepts and realities. And when we see our Dhamma friends forgetting that difference we must promptly remind them. > > Ken H ------------------- Htoo: Thanks Ken H. #131702 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Javanas after seeing? Dunno. Assume akusala. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hi Sarah (or any student of Abhidhamma) > > The subject of the thinking? > ... > S: No, it's not the object, but the way of thinking. When we think of a person, it's usually with attachment, aversion or ignorance, but for an arahat, no such attachment. Is the object of thinking always a concept? Can the object of thinking be a reality? The kind of concept that refers to a reality, I guess. Phil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The objects of thinking( aaramma.na of manovi~n~naa.na cittas ) 1. 12 o.laarika ruupas 2. 16 sukhuma ruupas 3. 89 cittas 4. 52 cetasikas 5. nibbaana 6. pa~n~natti One to five and their contents are concepts for realities. #131703 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:16 pm Subject: Re: Do we have to think a lot? htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear group. > Today I heard this exchange from India 2004, Pattna pt.4: > Jon: well suppose compassion arises, there is bound to be thoughts that follow (about what is to be done to help) > AS: Do we have to think a lot? > Jon: well I suppose we think a lot (about anything) > AS: Think less. > ********** > I found this interesting. Often we hear that thinking isn't the problem, it's just another reali -- -- -- --t teach it, though. ) Do we have to think a lot? Usua -- -- -- think less. Should there be trying to have awareness of realities so there will be less thinking? Nope. Phil -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thinking more or thinking less is not a problem. It should be in natural way as it happens. More important is 'those' thinkings have to be sammaasa`nkappa. Not all vitakkas are samma-sankappa. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131704 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:31 pm Subject: Re: People seen as visible object or visible object seen as people? htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Dear group > Here is another thing from the Patthna talk. > Do we say people are seen as visible object or visible object is seen as people? > Not so tricky, really. > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 4 primary elements are grouped together and again their are also ruupa which depend on these 4 primary elements (mahaa bhuuta ruupa). One of depending ruupas is va.n.na which is colour or visible object. Visible objects are being cognised as people where in real is they are just visible objects or vanna only. There is only 1 ruupa that can be seen. It is vanna. No other ruupa can be see directly. Again vanna does not exist on its own. It has to depend on 4 primary elements of pathavii, tejo, vayo, and apo. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131705 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > > Dear Htoo, Dieter, > > Why samatha (calmness) in not included in the perfections (the wholesome conditions that need to be developed/accumulated for a very long time, by those whose ultimate goal is to attain enlightenment in the four noble truths)? Pa~n~na (understanding realities) is parami, it needs to be developed for that goal. Sacca (the truth, what is real) needs to be developed too (by hearing and considering it, again and again and again), and also dana (giving), sila (virtue), renunciation (nekkhama), energy (viriya), khanti (patience), adhitthana (resolution), metta, and equanimity (upekkha) are all parami. Why not samatha? > > Alberto ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Alberto, Dieter will answer this, I think. There are 10 paaramii ( things to be accumulated) 1. daana (giving/offering to lessen idea of self, mine) 2. siila (to suppress aggressive behaviours/avoiding bad things) 3. nikkhamma (to stay away from sensual things) 4. pa~n~naa (most requisite) 5. viriya (without this the boat will not move/viriya row) 6. khanti ( a form of adosa to its maximal capacity) 7. saccaa (rightness and building up sammaa-vaacaa) 8. adhi.t.thaana (determination) 9. metta (opposite of dosa/calming down or drive out dosa) 10 upekkhaa (the highest bojjha`nga after which nibbaana comes) Samatha is bhaavanaa. Bhaavanaa is mental activity. It does have accumulation. Example is odaata-kasi.na taken by a farmer long long long time ago. Cu.lapanthaka was a mahaa-saavaka. In his last life he was too stupid to learn a simple verse for 3 months. The Buddha helped him with accumulated samatha. 'Rajo hara.na.m rajo hara.na.m '. Take dye! take dye!. He rubbed a white cloth. It took the dye and then changed in colour. This led him to develop vipassana and nibbaana. But samath does not have the power of paaramii. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131706 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:02 am Subject: Vipassanaa_015 (DT 902 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Building up the power of concentration is a good thing if one pre-cognises that the power is not the end and the power is to use as a tool for further steps in attaining nibbaana. Is it required when understanding on naama or ruupa arising now? It is. Jhaana cannot arise without panna. But panna in jhaana cannot abolish the potentials of later arising of kilesas or defilements. Concentration in right degree does require to see dhamma rightly. Dhamma-kaaya as one-pointedness or ekaggataa. Ekaggataa as reality is not the same in terms of power. Theoretical understanding is not that difficult. But everything that comes from as a transferral from other is not long lasting. As oppose to this, experiential understanding is lasting. This is like real experience and unreal experience in dreaming state. Early part in satipatthana suttam describes how to set up concentration. Anapanassati suttam also describes on building up of concentration. Kayagatasati suttam also reveals how to set up concentration. And many sutta.ms delineates establishing concentration. Buddha taught many times on how to construct concentration. He also mentioned the importance of concentration many times. " Samaadhi.m, bhikkhave, bhaavetha. Samaadhi.m bhaaveto naamaruupa.m yathaabhuta.m jhaanaati". " Jhaayatha, bhikkhave, maa pamaadattha!/ jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha/ jhaayatha, Aanandaa, maa pamaadattha. " Catunna.m ariyasaccaana.m yathaabhuta.m adassanaa,sa.msita.m diighamaddhaana.m , taasu taasveva jaatisu.Taani etaani di.t.thaani bhava netthi samuuhataa ucchinna.m muula dukkhassa natthi-daani punabbhavo'ti" (Ariyasacca kathaa from Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m , maahaa vagga, diighanikaaya). For arising of yathaabhuuta ~naa.na concentration or samaadhi is a prerequisite to develop panna things like yathaabhuuta naana. When yathaabhuuta naana arises then successive higher naana are in queue to develop one after another as milestones in the sideway of highway road to nibbaana. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why samatha is not a parami? nilovg Dear Alberto, Op 11-jul-2013, om 8:04 heeft sprlrt@... het volgende geschreven: > Why samatha (calmness) in not included in the perfections (the > wholesome conditions that need to be developed/accumulated for a > very long time, by those whose ultimate goal is to attain > enlightenment in the four noble truths)? Pa~n~na (understanding > realities) is parami, it needs to be developed for that goal. Sacca > (the truth, what is real) needs to be developed too (by hearing and > considering it, again and again and again), and also dana (giving), > sila (virtue), renunciation (nekkhama), energy (viriya), khanti > (patience), adhitthana (resolution), metta, and equanimity > (upekkha) are all parami. Why not samatha? ------ N: Samatha usually refers to the development of calm by means of certain meditation subjects. Each of the paraamis is kusala and thus accompanied by calm, in his case samaadhi that is kusala. There is no need for the development of additional calm, it accompanies already the wholesome qualities that are the paramis. Take upekkhaa, equanimity or evenmindedness, is this not very calm? I think of the Bodhisatta who went to a cemetery and let naughty children pester him all the more. It was like a test he passed. Nina. #131708 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:04 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Dear Htoo, Thanks for replying: H: There are 10 paaramii ( things to be accumulated) 1. daana (giving/offering to lessen idea of self, mine) 2. siila (to suppress aggressive behaviours/avoiding bad things) 3. nikkhamma (to stay away from sensual things) 4. pa~n~naa (most requisite) 5. viriya (without this the boat will not move/viriya row) 6. khanti ( a form of adosa to its maximal capacity) 7. saccaa (rightness and building up sammaa-vaacaa) 8. adhi.t.thaana (determination) 9. metta (opposite of dosa/calming down or drive out dosa) 10 upekkhaa (the highest bojjha`nga after which nibbaana comes) Samatha is bhaavanaa. Bhaavanaa is mental activity. It does have accumulation. Example is odaata-kasi.na taken by a farmer long long long time ago. Cu.lapanthaka was a mahaa-saavaka. In his last life he was too stupid to learn a simple verse for 3 months. The Buddha helped him with accumulated samatha. 'Rajo hara.na.m rajo hara.na.m '. Take dye! take dye!. He rubbed a white cloth. It took the dye and then changed in colour. This led him to develop vipassana and nibbaana. A: Doesn't this mean that Cu.lapanthaka, as mahaa-savaka, had developed all the 10 paramis, including pa~n~naa, for many many many aeons before his last birth, as well as samatha in his case, being a bhikkhu? H: But samatha does not have the power of paaramii. A: I appreciate your answer, but why then putting so much time and effort trying to accumulate what is not necessary, even when it's right samatha, instead than developing what is necessary and required, like right understanding of dhammas, or hearing or speaking the truth about them, and are there in samsara more opportunities to develop samatha or pa~n~naa? Why wasting this precious opportunity to develop the paaramii of pa~n~naa and sacca, as well as the other 8, for something less useful at best, when it's right samatha, or useless or harmful when it's not wholesome? Alberto #131709 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:04 am Subject: Re: TA on the blessings sprlrt Hi Phil, Thanks for putting my transcripts together and uploading them, I've added some more (some from my 'Sent' folder and a couple which I hadn't yet sent). Please feel free to correct any English mistake I've made. Also, if you or anyone is interested I could upload a (very partial) table of contents (sort of) with the subjects of Ajahn's talks in Poland Sept 2012 and in Thailand Jan 2013. Alberto PS I'm taking a break from transcribing, but I'm sure that you, Nina, Sarah and hopefully others will post more. #131710 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:07 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? moellerdieter Dear Alberto ( and Htoo, all ), I appreciated that you are involving me about a topic I had in mind since for some time (sorry therefore a bit longer response). It is a nice opportunity as well to say hello to Htoo , looking foward to having a fresh start of communication. you wrote: Dear Htoo, Dieter, Why samatha (calmness) in not included in the perfections (the wholesome conditions that need to be developed/accumulated for a very long time, by those whose ultimate goal is to attain enlightenment in the four noble truths)? Pa~n~na (understanding realities) is parami, it needs to be developed for that goal. Sacca (the truth, what is real) needs to be developed too (by hearing and considering it, again and again and again), and also dana (giving), sila (virtue), renunciation (nekkhama), energy (viriya), khanti (patience), adhitthana (resolution), metta, and equanimity (upekkha) are all parami. Why not samatha? D: Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dict.: Parami 'perfection' Ten qualities leading to Buddha-hood: a.. (1) perfection in giving (or liberality; dana-parami) b.. (2) morality (sila-p.) c.. (3) renunciation (nekkhamma-p.) d.. (4) wisdom (paρρa-p.) e.. (5) energy (viriya-p.) f.. (6) patience (or forbearance; khanti p.) g.. (7) truthfulness (sacca-p.) h.. (8) resolution (adhitthana-p.) i.. (9) loving-kindness (metta-p.) j.. (10) equanimity (upekkha-p.) These qualities were developed and brought to maturity by the Bodhisatta in his past existences, and his way of practising them is illustrated in many of the Birth Stories (Jataka), of which, however, only the verses are regarded as canonical. Apart from the latter, the 10 parami are mentioned in only two other canonical works which are probably apocryphal, the Buddhavamsa (in the Story of Sumedha) and theCariyapitaka. A long and methodical exposition of the parami is given in the concluding Miscellaneous Section (pakinnakakatha) of the Com. to Cariyapitaka These qualities were developed and brought to maturity by the Bodhisatta in his past existences, and his way of practising them is illustrated in many of the Birth Stories (Jataka), of which, however, only the verses are regarded as canonical. Apart from the latter, the 10 parami are mentioned in only two other canonical works which are probably apocryphal, the Buddhavamsa (in the Story of Sumedha) and theCariyapitaka. A long and methodical exposition of the parami is given in the concluding Miscellaneous Section (pakinnakakatha) of the Com. to Cariyapitaka unquote D: I understand that these 10 qualities are derived from the Birth Stories , hence not (really ) canonical, respectively not spoken by the Buddha. Even when we assume that the Bodhisatta developed these particular qualities in countless lives , what does it mean to us? All human are different by their (inherited ) kamma , different accumulation means different lives , different wandering (samsara). Some people seem to assume that they need to follow the same steps as the Bodhisatta ( a term the Buddha used for own past) , perhaps having the idea to become the next proclaimer of the Dhamma : Nyanatiloka Buddh.Dict: 'Perfect Enlightenment', Universal Buddha-hood, is the state attained by a Universal Buddha (samma-sambuddha), i.e. one by whom the liberating law (dhamma) which had become lost to the world, has again been discovered, realized and clearly proclaimed to the world."Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a Universal Buddha, or Enlightened One" (Pug. 29).The doctrine characteristic of all the Buddhas, and each time rediscovered by them and fully explained to the world, consists in the 4 Truths (sacca) of suffering, its origin, its extinction and the way to its extinction.' unquote The countless rounds of birth and death were/are due because of not knowing , not recognizing what all Buddha's proclaim: The 4 Noble Truths. Hence we do not need to reinvent the Wheel as long as the Buddha Dhamma is available to us . I think there is some confusion , especially in Mahayana circles , who consider the Arahant a 'minor' enlightenment. N.B.D. : In Vis.M. IX it is said that through developing the 4 sublime states (loving-kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity; s. brahma-vihara), one may reach these 10 perfections, namely: "As the Great Beings (maha-satta; a synonym often found in the Mahayana scriptures for Bodhisatta, i.e. 'Enlightenment Being or Being destined for Buddha-hood) are concerned about the welfare of living beings, not tolerating the suffering of beings, wishing long duration to the higher states of happiness of beings, and being impartial and just to all beings, therefore: 1.. they give alms (dana) to all beings so that they may be happy, without Investigating whether they are worthy or not. 2.. By avoiding to do them any harm, they observe morality (sila). 3.. In order to bring morality to perfection, they train themselves in renunciation (nekkhamma). 4.. In order to understand clearly what is beneficial and injurious to beings, they purify their wisdom (paρρa). 5.. For the sake of the welfare and happiness of others they constantly exert their energy (viriya). 6.. Though having become heroes through utmost energy, they are nevertheless full of forbearance (khanti) toward s the manifold failings of beings. 7.. Once they have promised to give or do something, they do not break their promise ('truthfulness'; sacca). 8.. With unshakable resolution (adhitthana) they work for the weal and welfare of beings. 9.. With unshakable kindness (metta) they are helpful to all. 10.. By reason of their equanimity (upekkha) they do not expect anything in return" (Vis.M. IX.24). unquote again: refering to the (becoming) Universal Buddha Now directly to your question. Why is samatha not mentioned ? Why is samatha not mentioned as one of the 8 Path elements? Because it is a detail , a ' concomitant' of the path practise ( especially of samma sati and and samma samadhi), and so is for example renunciation (# 3 of the list) . Parami or - e.g. - the 7 factors of enlightenment - should not be understood as an alternative to the Path . In so far I consider the statement ' Vis.M. IX it is said that through developing the 4 sublime states (loving-kindness, compassion, altruistic joy, equanimity; s. brahma-vihara), one may reach these 10 perfections ' a misleading commentary unless learning of respective sutta quotation in context ) . I.M.H.O. with Metta Dieter #131711 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:36 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Dear Alberto A bit of a dangerous question in my opinion. It assumes that people know what samattha is. Remember, we don't know the characteristic of samattha. Seeing that people mistake lobha for samattha, why play into their hands so that they can go on and on about why their pseudo-samattha is or isn't a parami when it isn't even kusala? Generosity is a parami, I guess that's what you are demonstrating. Phil #131712 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:38 am Subject: Samatthabation. philofillet Dear group Friday morning, for me my Monday, back to my hard job and all it's exhausting challenges. (I enjoy it, actually, when I'm actually doing it.) it is brutally hot these days I. Tokyo and the heat doesn't subside at night. We don't use an air conditioner at night, there was little sleep and so much hard work to come! But not to worry! I know how to tap into pleasant mind states through meditation. I use the technique taught by Ajahn Lee and popularized by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I won't go into the technical details but within 10 minutes I am sitting soaking in a blissful full-body breathing, having manipulated the breath in a way that the masters of this technique either willfully or through pure ignorance claim to be derived from the suttanta. All aversion to sleeplessness and heat and exhaustion to come are dissolved and washed away in the bliss of "the breath." After the meditation I will wake my my wife and we will have a cheerful getting-ready-for-work when there would have more likely benn grumpiness. And I will take the train to work, still able to easily (even if standing) close my eyes and regain the bliss of the "breath." This surely must be samattha, sense door objects have lost their compulsive pull, I am like the turtle with its head withdrawn in the shell, safe, I am like those wild animals of the six doors lying down by the post thanks to "mindfulness in the body." Ha! It is not samattha, it is samatthabation. The greedy self seeking shelter from unpleasant mind states by willfully creating pleasant ones. I seem to be very good at it, thanks to long years of working with visualization and other new age techniques. (The drugs didn't hurt.) At work people will say, again, that I am always such a calming presence, always smiling. If pressed. I will encourage them to try "meditation" because I think these kind of feel good techniques do, as demonstrated by scientific research, have a lot of benefits. If there is a problem in class, I will "breathe and shine" as I put it. My glorious coping mechanism! My samatthabation! Phil P.s sorry for any iPhone typos. #131713 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:51 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) kenhowardau Hi Thomas, --- >> KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. >> >> ... conventional language in our Dhamma discussions ... there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. >> > T: So, in reality there are 'no' paramattha dhammas. --- KH: I look forward to your answer to Sukin's question: "So in reality there is nothing?" Apart from that I wonder how you connected your statement to my statement. "In reality there are only paramattha dhammas" so in reality there are no paramattha dhammas. (?) Ken H #131714 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. philofillet Hi again Sarah > > > > I guess it wasn't some incorrect BB thing, I see in Conditions that the 4 nama khandas arise together by mutuality/conascence condition. And citta can't arise without rupa as its base, right? So the khandas always arise together. I guess the question I asked whether atta view is akin to the khandas came from wondering whether since the khandas arise together the view of self comes from this conascence. But no, because the Buddha doesn't say this ( as far as I can recall) he says seeing is self, eye is self, visible object is self etc. I think I will have a read through SN 22 to clarify this. In a notebook I found the BB reference that impressed me. " Sakkaya ditthi = khandas as an integral unit" Wrong? Thanks, Sarah only, please. No hurry. Phil #131715 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:11 am Subject: Re: People seen as visible object or visible object seen as people? philofillet Dear Htoo Thank you for your answer to this and other questions. So nice to read you on dhammas rather than practices! Phil #131716 From: Sukinder Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hi Htoo, > Sukin: > Does this mean that all those who could attain jhana during the Buddha's time understood the Buddha's teachings more readily than those who did not? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The answer is in your question. This question is something like > leading question used in court where the judge does not allow. I wrote in response to your suggestion: Quote: "Wild mind has to be tamed before getting to magganga dhamma. This is performed by the earlier part described in satipatthaana suttam. When the mind is tamed it has to follow according to satipatthaana. In Buddha time, bhikkhus groups by groups approached the Buddha and asked for kammatthaana appropriate for them. This seems to be for samatha. Samatha helps vipassana in may ways." If you say that samatha helps vipassana, then you are saying that those with developed samatha, of which jhana is the highest, are more ready to understand the Buddha's Dhamma. Hence my question. === > The dhamma anatta is unique. While in su~n~na kappas there is no arahat and even no sotapanna. So no one knows anatta. > > As I wrote in recent replies and posts there are 3 kinds of individual who know anatta. Without teachers is for sammaasambuddhas and also for paccekabuddhas. Paccekabuddhas can discuss dhamma. But they are not able to change the view of puthujanas. Silent buddhas is not appropriate term. Because paccekabuddhas do speak. > > Example: "Icchita.m patthita.m tu.myha.m kippameva samijjhatu..." Paccekabuddhas do speak. > > The third individual is savaka. They just know anatta only after hearing teaching message from sammaasambuddha directly or indirectly. > > Jhaana can be attain even in sunna kappas. Bodisatta deserted Aa.laara kaalaama and Udaka Raamaputta (7th jhaana and 8th jhaana owner) because there is no essence of dhamma. So, does the understanding related to samatha / jhana help to understand the Buddha's Dhamma? === > Sukin: > Are those living the household life less receptive to the Dhamma > than monks who lived a more simple life? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This depends on paaramii. This depends on accumulations. As I think you are discussing in another thread, is samatha development a parami? === > There were two populations in Buddha time. > > 1. Lay people > 2. Bhikkhus (monks) > > There were many sotapanna in lay people whereas fewer in monks. > There were many arahats and many anaagaa.m in monks where as fewer in monks. > > There was no arahat in lay people. Only a few exceptions. When a lay people becomes an arahat he has to parinibbaana on that same day if there is no duty to save sattaa-veneyya. If there is duty he has to enter the saasanaa as a monk. Aarahatship is not suit to household life. But anaagaa.m can stay in household. > > Individual can attain if there are conditions and lay people and monks have equal chance (if you think). This is for sotapatti magga naana. But for higher magga naana monks excel. It is not so much a question of the one being more conducive for higher attainments, but rather that those with particular accumulations would be well suited to become monks. And with the attainment of Arahat, it is impossible to live the life of a householder. Indeed, the important landmark is not the higher attainments, but the eradication of wrong view and the attainment of Stream-Entry. === > Sukin: > > What connection is there between the understanding which sees danger in sense contacts and one which understands the present dhamma, be it kuslaa, akusala or avyakata, as conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta? ----------------------- > Htoo: > > Mind is so fast. Mind comprises cittas. When it says 'mind' this seems 'mind is permanent one'. But citta is not in this matter. Citta just lasts a moment. In a blink or in a time when fingers are flicked there happens more than 1,000,000,000,000 cittas. Who see these cittas except Sammaasambuddha? Can you see? Suk: Are you suggesting that the development of understanding and achieving vipassana involves coming to experience individual cittas? Does it matter how many cittas have arisen and fallen away when a nimitta of any nama or rupa is experienced by panna of some level? What the Buddha suggested to Bahiya and what is taught in the Satipatthana Sutta, is this about coming to see individual cittas? ==== > Dhammasa`nga.nii describes there are kusala, akusala, and abyaakata. > > 1. kusala (sinless, flawless,errorless) > 2. akusala(sinful) > 3. abyaakata (neither kusala nor akusala_abyaakato). > > Kusala and akusala only arise while in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas also arise in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas are abyaakata. > > Vipaaka cittas are also abyaakata. > > Can you see patisandhi cittas? > Can you see cuti cittas? > Can you see bhava`nga cittas? And your point for asking this kind of question is? Let me guess. It is to justify the practice of being mindful of postures and conventional activities....? ==== > Cittas are very fast. One is immediately replaced by next arising citta when vanishes and santati is so maintained in this way covering the mind-eyes of puthujanas. The function of panna is to "understand", step by step, different aspects of nama and rupa, most if not all of which do not require the experience of individual cittas arising in succession, one distinct from the next. === > Those who never know anatta may see the danger of sense contacts. Right, so how does the latter help in the arising of the former? ==== > Very present moment is difficult to see. When some fact is understood this is done by panna-led-kaamavacara-kusala-javana-cittas. At this time there is no more original object for most manodvaaraviitti. So? ==== > Speaking is easy. Writing is easy. To see dhamma is not so easy. You are writing and you speak. Is it a meaningless endeavor? ==== > Close your eyes! Then open your eyes! What do you see? If you see as usual then the lineage has not been changed yet. If you see differently this has to be checked by living ariiyas like arahats or anaagaa.ms . Panna understands, and it knows also that it needs to develop further, no need to ask anyone. To understand that there is no understanding, is itself a level of panna. It is not a question of whether one perceives people and things when opening one's eyes, but understanding what is what. Metta, Sukin #131717 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:34 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) thomaslaw03 Hi Ken H, > "Ken H" wrote: > > KH: Apart from that I wonder how you connected your statement to my statement. "In reality there are only paramattha dhammas" so in reality there are no paramattha dhammas. (?) ------- T: See below carefully: > KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. > For the sake of convenience we often use words such as "the Buddha existed" and "the Buddha preached to people" > … When we use conventional language in our Dhamma discussions we inadvertently think there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. > That is a fundamental error, of course … ----- T: Thus, in reality there are `no' paramattha dhammas. Paramattha dhammas does not exist in the world of anatta. Thomas #131718 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:37 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) thomaslaw03 Hi Ken H, > "Ken H" wrote: > > KH: Apart from that I wonder how you connected your statement to my statement. "In reality there are only paramattha dhammas" so in reality there are no paramattha dhammas. (?) ------- T: See below carefully: > KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. > For the sake of convenience we often use words such as "the Buddha existed" and "the Buddha preached to people" > … When we use conventional language in our Dhamma discussions we inadvertently think there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. > That is a fundamental error, of course … ----- T: Thus, in reality there are `no' paramattha dhammas. Paramattha dhammas do not exist in the world of anatta. Thomas #131719 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Dear Nina, N: There is no need for the development of additional calm, it accompanies already the wholesome qualities that are the paramis. Yes I agree, all kinds of kusala dhammas are worth to be developed, for one's own benefit as well as for that of the others'. Alberto #131720 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Dear Dieter, <...> D: Now directly to your question. Why is samatha not mentioned ? Why is samatha not mentioned as one of the 8 Path elements? Because it is a detail , a ' concomitant' of the path practise ( especially of samma sati and and samma samadhi), and so is for example renunciation (# 3 of the list) . A: Not a particularly good example of right thinking (IMVHO). D: Parami or - e.g. - the 7 factors of enlightenment - should not be understood as an alternative to the Path . A: Of course not, the development (or the practice) of all the 10 parami are the right conditions for reaching the right path, samma magga. Alberto #131721 From: sprlrt@... Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:40 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Dear Phil, Ph: A bit of a dangerous question in my opinion. It assumes that people know what samattha is. Remember, we don't know the characteristic of samattha. Seeing that people mistake lobha for samattha, why play into their hands so that they can go on and on about why their pseudo-samattha is or isn't a parami when it isn't even kusala? Generosity is a parami, I guess that's what you are demonstrating. A: This question was just to say that (kusala) samatha bhavana is not a parami, that's all. Alberto #131722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: TA on the blessings nilovg Dear Alberto, Yes, very nice if you have time, Nina. Op 11-jul-2013, om 18:04 heeft sprlrt@... het volgende geschreven: > Also, if you or anyone is interested I could upload a (very > partial) table of contents (sort of) with the subjects of Ajahn's > talks in Poland Sept 2012 and in Thailand Jan 2013. #131723 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? moellerdieter Dear Alberto. you wrote: (Now directly to your question. Why is samatha not mentioned ? Why is samatha not mentioned as one of the 8 Path elements? Because it is a detail , a ' concomitant' of the path practise ( especially of samma sati and and samma samadhi), and so is for example renunciation (# 3 of the list) . A:Not a particularly good example of right thinking (IMVHO). D:Parami or - e.g. - the 7 factors of enlightenment - should not be understood as an alternative to the Path . A:Of course not, the development (or the practice) of all the 10 parami are the right conditions for reaching the right path, samma magga. D: Not a particularly good example of right thinking (IMVHO). with Metta Dieter #131724 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_009 (DT 896 ) sarahprocter... Dear Pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > >H: Apaadaana describes requisites, fulfilments and requirements for Sammasambuddhas, paccekabuddhas, agga-saavakas, mahaa-saavakas. >PT: Thanks. Yes, it seems Apadana hasn't been translated into English yet. S: Occasionally, there has been mention of it on DSG. It is the 13th book of the Khuddakanikaya and contains 547 biographies of monks and 40 of nuns at the time of the Buddha. It says that most the stories are found in the Paramatthadipani, the commentary to the Thera and Therigatha. Apadana means the legend or life-story of an arahat. According to U Ko Lay's A Guide to Tipitaka, the Apadaana is divided into two main parts: 1. Thera-Apadaana which contains the verses of the Buddha, 41 Paccekabuddhas, and 559 arahats. 2. Therii-Apadaana which contains the verses of 40 female arahats. Again, one has to go the Apadana commentary to read the biographical stories that go with the verses. Bimala Churn Law in "A History of Pali Literature" gives quite a lot of detail and refers to how each of the Apadanas gives first the life of the arahat on a previous birth, a past and then a present story, like a Jataka, but in this case usually that of an arahat, rather than a Buddha. Funny thing is, I think we have a copy somewhere (maybe a Burmese translation), a slim volume, but can't find it for now. Metta Sarah >PT: For those interested, there are two bits from Apadana in English on Bhikkhu Anandajoti's website: > > Buddhaapadaana: > http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-buddhist-texts/English-Texts/Short-Pieces-in\ -English/Buddhapadana.htm > > I found it interesting in the sense that it reads like Mahayana, although it's canonical Theravada - e.g. all the Buddhas, silent Buddhas, great disciples, etc, coming together and asking each other questions in the Buddha-Land. > > > Apadana 39.10 and commentary: > http://www.buddhanet-de.net/ancient-buddhist-texts/Texts-and-Translations/Connec\ tion-with-Previous-Deeds/index.htm > > This one seemed more interesting in terms of the commentary - the commentator actually mentions that the Great Commentary in Sinhala makes no sense and that he therefore composed a commentary that does make sense. Interesting details. === #131725 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:07 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Mahaasii instruct to concentrate on abdomen. Rising and falling. AT first call in the mind as 'rising and falling'. Later instructed to concentrate on the sense of 'tenseness' and 'looseness'. Paramattha is there. It is vaayo. Vaayo here works as object. It is ruupa. It is vayo pho.t.thabba. So it is kaayaanupassanaa. ... S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention. Such instructions are not compatible with the development of satipatthana and the understanding of dhammas as anatta. They are based on an idea of a self being able to select an object and a looking for a short-cut, a simplification to develop awareness, motivated by a wish for results, a growth of understanding, but not an understanding of what realities, such as hardness, motion are. There is no understanding of what is meant by kaayaanupassanaa at such times. I appreciate the way that the Pali texts have been shared and made available by such Sayadaws, but not the wrong practices which are not in conformity with these texts. I think it is the same with the Abhidhamma and detail brought to Thailand by teachers such as A.Naeb with the help of the Sayadaws - wonderful for people to have access to the Teachings, but not to these practices revolving around the idea of a Self taking action and being aware. ... >> Some meditators concentrate on where tenseness or looseness exists. Then they are directing to kaayapasaada which just last 17 cittakkha.na. Mahaasii Sayadaw (Late MS) saw or realised that there are bhava`nga cittas as experience. ... S: Concentrating on particular objects, trying to experience or being directed to sense bases, bhavanga cittas or any other realities is not the understanding of what appears now. You made some passing reference to slow walking in Hong Kong. I have no idea what you were referring to. It makes no difference at all whether one walks fast or slow in terms of the development of awareness and understanding. There are always realities - it doesn't depend on the way one walks but on the understanding as to whether there is any awareness. If there is any idea of slowing down and trying to be aware, it is wrong view and practice which will just impede such awareness. ... > Anatta is seen at first visit to nibbaana. > Anicca is especially seen at second visit to nibbaana. > Asubha is especially seen at third visit to nibbaana. > Dukkha is especially seen at last visit to nibbaana. .... S: If there is no understanding of realities as anatta now, there will never be any "visit to nibbana". These characteristics of realities have to appear before the attainment of the first stage of enlightenment. ... > When asubha is realised then meditators become anaagaamii. ... S: I think that what you mean is that at the stage of the anagami all preversion of views of dhammas as subha (beautiful) is completely eradicated. Similarly, all perversion of views of dhammas as sukha (satisfatory/happy) is eradicated at stage of arahat. > > Yes, asubha is not a sign of dhamma. .... S: All conditioned dhammas are asubha, not subha, because that which arises and falls away cannot be beautiful. "Sensing no change in the changing, Sensing pleasure in suffering, Assuming "self" where there's no self, Sensing the un-lovely as lovely β€" Gone astray with wrong views, beings Mis-perceive with distorted minds." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.olen.html Metta Sarah ======== #131726 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:12 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > But I do not think these things [Rob: distractions, addictions etc.] are a hindrance to the mindfulness that was taught by the Buddha. To my understanding, that mindfulness is mindfulness of the way things are in truth and reality at the present moment. The conditions for such mindfulness to arise are not things like being in a quiet place or being `focussed', but are things such as having reflected on how the teachings of the Buddha on dhammas (and the Four Noble Truths, etc.) apply to the present moment as it occurs at any time. > > RE: I think there is a potential for misunderstanding here which is also important to consider: the factors that arise with mindfulness include a certain level of calm, concentration etc. - correct me if I'm wrong - and so at the moment of satipatthana those factors in addition to others have to be present as well. I remember commentary quotes [can't cite them as I don't have my own copies] that spoke of distraction and restlessness being the enemy of mindfulness and concentration. Sorry to not supply quotes but perhaps you have access to a statement from commentary of the accompanying factors or cetasikas for satipatthana when it arises. > =============== J: You probably have in mind the sutta passages that describe the hindrances as an obstacle to awareness/insight. This is to be understood in the sense that when the citta is akusala, there cannot be awareness at the same moment, as you rightly point out later in your message. However, for the person who is developing awareness/insight, the present akusala moment is no obstacle to the arising of awareness in a following moment. Actually, the phenomenon of kusala and akusala cittas arising alternately is a commonplace occurrence in daily life: most times there is kusala, there will be akusala arising also (but not at precisely the same moment). > =============== > RE: The question then is whether these factors merely arise mechanically as natural accompaniments to satipatthana or sati sampajanna and other versions of mindfulness, or whether they are necessary supporting conditions. I would think the latter. This doesn't mean that worldly addictions such as wanting a nicer car are at play, but the factors themselves, such as attachment, mistaking addictive desires for self, etc., are enemies of mindfulness and I don't believe it would be able to arise with them as accompaniments. > =============== J: Yes, quite so. The kusala factor of mindfulness cannot accompany an akusala citta. > =============== > RE: In my view, your point about sati being capable of being mindful of any dhamma, including one that is highly akusala, such as it being aware of distraction or greed or restlessness or addictiveness, is of course correct, but it would be a different moment of mindfulness that would become aware of the akusala moment that had just passed, and the akusala cetasikas would not arise at the same time as a moment of mindfulness. > =============== J: Correct, when we talk about awareness of akusala, we refer to awareness of the akusala moment that has just passed; they are different moments of consciousness. > =============== > RE: So at the actual moment of satipattana, sampajana or panna arising, the accompanying cetasikas - and perhaps the conditions that cause it to arise...? - would have to include the kusala factors and exclude the akusala factors mentioned. > =============== J: Yes, the set of conditions that conditions the arising of the kusala moment is a completely different set of conditions to that which conditions the arising of the akusala moment. Akusala moments are rooted in attachment, aversion and/or ignorance, while kusala moments are rooted in one or more of the kusala roots (i.e., the opposites of the 3 akusala roots). Jon #131727 From: "philip" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:16 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Hi Alberto Sure, fair enough. Why isn't samattha a paramis? Samattha can be discussed in theory, as with any refined and rarefied Nama that we are very very very unlike to know directly. You understand that. If meditators don't ( and they don't or they wouldn't advocate the intentional accumulation of lobha ditthi) it is their problem, I know... Phil #131728 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > When walk try to know walking. At first 'say in mind'. SO that mind cannot sway. 'walking' 'walking' 'walking'. Later he understands that from the very first movement to the last movement just before to stop to stand there are many things happen. Arising and falling away. All are kaayavinnaa.na cittas arising and falling away. ... S: Those dhammas which arise now, whether we're sitting or walking, do so by conditions. There will never be the growth of understanding by repeating words or trying to control the mind. ... > > Mahaasii Sayadaw instructed to walk as if feeble person as if an ill person. That is slowly. Very slowly (I rember Sarah's word 'walking slowly in Hong Kong). .. S: ??? No, I've never suggested walking slowly or feebly as a way to develop understanding. This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment. It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all. ... >During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken. ... S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities. ... > > This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana. ... S: Again, I disagree. First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all. Metta Sarah ====== #131729 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:06 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? htoonaing... > 'Rajo hara.na.m rajo hara.na.m '. Take dye! take dye!. He rubbed a white > cloth. It took the dye and then changed in colour. This led him to develop > vipassana and nibbaana. ----------------------------------- Alberto: A: Doesn't this mean that Cu.lapanthaka, as mahaa-savaka, had developed all the 10 paramis, including pa~n~naa, for many many many aeons before his last birth, as well as samatha in his case, being a bhikkhu? ----------------------------------- Htoo: Cuu.lapanthaka had to accumulate for 100,000 kappas. This is because he wanted to be come Mahaa-saavaka. Otherwise there is no definite requirement as simple saavaka. May be one life. May be more than what Sammaasambuddha have to accumulate. Samatha is not paramii thing. Actually the Buddha used His power by looking at sa~n~naa through pubbenivaasaanussati. The sanna in Cuu.lapanthaka was at 'odaata' 'white kasi.na'. Samatha does not accumulate. If I did samatha and got jhaana and after a while jhaana lost. Then jhaana may not re-appear. But if I tried again I may regain jhaana. Not like accumulation. ----------------------------------- > H: But samatha does not have the power of paaramii. A: I appreciate your answer, but why then putting so much time and effort trying to accumulate what is not necessary, even when it's right samatha, instead than developing what is necessary and required, like right understanding of dhammas, or hearing or speaking the truth about them, and are there in samsara more opportunities to develop samatha or pa~n~naa? ----------------------------------- Htoo: There are sukkha-vipassakaa or simple saavaka who did not have jhaana. They can still attain arahatship without full jhaana. Why need samatha? There are 4 kinds who attain nibbaan. 1. difficult practice & difficultly attain nibbaana 2. difficult practice & easily attain nibbaana 3. easy practice & difficultly attain nibbaana 4. easy practice & easily attain nibbaana Even though nibbaana can be attained without full jhaana it is easier if there is right-concentration. That is why concentration is included in 8 maggas. If not needed, then it will not appear in many sutta.ms. ------------------------------------- A: Why wasting this precious opportunity to develop the paaramii of pa~n~naa and sacca, as well as the other 8, for something less useful at best, when it's right samatha, or useless or harmful when it's not wholesome? Alberto ------------------------------------ Htoo: Samatha is bhaavanaa. It is kusala. If something is akusala it cannot be samatha. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131730 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:46 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_013 (DT 900 ) kenhowardau Hi Thomas, ---- <. . .> > T: See below carefully: > KH: In reality there are only paramattha dhammas. > For the sake of convenience we often use words such as "the Buddha existed" and "the Buddha preached to people" > … When we use conventional language in our Dhamma discussions we inadvertently think there are two worlds – the world of atta in which people exist and the world of anatta in which paramattha dhammas exist. > That is a fundamental error, of course … ----- T: Thus, in reality there are `no' paramattha dhammas. Paramattha dhammas do not exist in the world of anatta. ---- KH: I have read it very carefully several times and I honestly can't see what mean. Ken H #131731 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Samatthabation. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: ------------------------ Phil: Dear group Friday morning, for me my Monday, back to my hard job -- -- --so much hard work to come! But not to worry! I know how to tap into pleasant mind states through meditation. I use the technique taught by Ajahn Lee -- -- -- I am like the turtle with its head withdrawn in the shell, safe, I am like those wild animals of the six doors lying down by the post thanks to "mindfulness in the body." Ha! It is not samattha, it is samatthabation. The greedy self seeking shelter from unpleasant mind states by willfully creating pleasant ones. I seem to be very good at it, -- --didn't hurt.) At work people will say, again, that I am always such a calming presence, always smiling. If pressed. I will -- -- I will "breathe and shine" as I put it. My glorious coping mechanism! My samatthabation! Phil P.s sorry for any iPhone typos. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Samatha leading to jhaana is a requisite for phala-samaapatti. Those ariyaa who do not have jhaana cannot enter phala-samaapatti. And for Dhamma teachers it is better to have jhaana than without jhaana. The Buddha Himself was in phala-samaapatti for 49 days after He attained arahatta magga naana. Only after 49 days (satta-sataaha) He considered that the Dhamma is so subtle, so high, so complex, so deep, so complicated that sattas may not understand these dhammas. "Shall I be staying without preaching dhammas?" The Buddha frequently passed into phala-samaapatti even between the time from tempporary ceasing of preaching at fullstops to the end of the voices calling for "Saadhu saadhu saadhu". When the Buddha became ill 4 months before His parinibbaana He stayed in phala-samaapatti for improvement of His illness. This is released only after He admitted to Maara that He desert "aayu sa`nkhaara = taking phala-samaapatti. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131732 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: -------------------------- Phil: Hi again Sarah > I guess it wasn't some incorrect BB thing, I see in Conditions that the 4 nama khandas arise together by mutuality/conascence condition. And citta can't arise without rupa as its base, right? So the khandas always arise together. I guess the question I asked whether atta view is akin to the khandas came from wondering whether since the khandas arise together the view of self comes from this conascence. But no, because the Buddha doesn't say this ( as far as I can recall) he says seeing is self, eye is self, visible object is self etc. I think I will have a read through SN 22 to clarify this. Phil: In a notebook I found the BB reference that impressed me. " Sakkaya ditthi = khandas as an integral unit" Wrong? Thanks, Sarah only, please. No hurry. Phil ---------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sakkaayo --> saha + kaayo = sakkaayo Vedanaa are sakaaya. Sa~n~naa are sakkaaya. Sa`nkhaaraa are sakkaaya. Vi~n~naa.naa are sakkaaya. Ruupa.m are sakkaaya. Pancakkhandhaa are sakkaaya. Di.t.thi is wrong view. It is a ceasika. It is akusala cetasika in lobha group of cetasikas namely ta.nhaa, maana, di.t.thi. SD (sakkaaya ditthi) is wrong view on realities. There are 20 sakkaaya ditthi. 4 ways of wrong view on 5 khandhaa so there are 4 . 5 = 20 sakkaaya ditthi. 1. ruupa = atta 2. atta owns ruupa 3. ruupa is in atta 4. atta is in ruupa With Metta, Htoo Naing #131733 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: Hi Htoo, > Sukin: > > Does this mean that all those who could attain jhana during the > Buddha's time understood the Buddha's teachings more readily than those > who did not? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The answer is in your question. This question is something like > leading question used in court where the judge does not allow. Sukin: I wrote in response to your suggestion: Quote: "Wild mind has to be tamed before getting to magganga dhamma. This is performed by the earlier part described in satipatthaana suttam. When the mind is tamed it has to follow according to satipatthaana. In Buddha time, bhikkhus groups by groups approached the Buddha and asked for kammatthaana appropriate for them. This seems to be for samatha. Samatha helps vipassana in may ways." If you say that samatha helps vipassana, then you are saying that those with developed samatha, of which jhana is the highest, are more ready to understand the Buddha's Dhamma. Hence my question. === ------------------------------------------ Htoo: The Buddha enlightened on fullmoon day of 2nd month. Then passed into phalasamaapatti for 7 weeks (satta-sattaaha). After that He thought "Dhamma is subtle and difficult to understand. Shall I stay without preaching". Once Brahma came down and asked for preaching dhammas as there are many ready to liberated. The Buddha then considered whom to preach first. The first one came into Buddha's mind was Aa.laara Kaalaama who possessed up to 7th jhaana. Then The Buddha was informed A. Kaalaama passed away a week back. Next appeared was Udaka Raamaputta who attained up to 8th jhaana. Again The Buddha was reported U. Raamaputta died earlier this morning. Next appeared in Buddha's mind was the group of 5 pancavaggii. This means that jhaanalaabhiis are ready to absorb anatta when explain and directly fuse with nibbaana. -------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: > The dhamma anatta is unique. While in su~n~na kappas there is no arahat and even no sotapanna. So no one knows anatta. > As I wrote in recent replies and posts there are 3 kinds of individual who know anatta. Without teachers is for sammaasambuddhas and also for paccekabuddhas. Paccekabuddhas can discuss dhamma. But they are not able to change the view of puthujanas. Silent buddhas is not appropriate term. Because paccekabuddhas do speak. > Example: "Icchita.m patthita.m tu.myha.m kippameva samijjhatu..." > Paccekabuddhas do speak. > The third individual is savaka. They just know anatta only after > hearing teaching message from sammaasambuddha directly or indirectly. > Jhaana can be attain even in sunna kappas. Bodisatta deserted Aa.laara kaalaama and Udaka Raamaputta (7th jhaana and 8th jhaana owner) because there is no essence of dhamma. ------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So, does the understanding related to samatha / jhana help to understand the Buddha's Dhamma? === --------------------------------- Htoo: Have answered above. (Sorry if I wrongly trim) ---------------------------------- Sukin: > Sukin: > Are those living the household life less receptive to the Dhamma > than monks who lived a more simple life? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This depends on paaramii. This depends on accumulations. --------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As I think you are discussing in another thread, is samatha development a parami? > > === > There were two populations in Buddha time. > 1. Lay people > 2. Bhikkhus (monks) > There were many sotapanna in lay people whereas fewer in monks. > There were many arahats and many anaagaa.m in monks where as fewer in monks. > There was no arahat in lay people. Only a few exceptions. When a lay > people becomes an arahat he has to parinibbaana on that same day if > there is no duty to save sattaa-veneyya. If there is duty he has to > enter the saasanaa as a monk. Aarahatship is not suit to household life. > But anaagaa.m can stay in household. > Individual can attain if there are conditions and lay people and > monks have equal chance (if you think). This is for sotapatti magga > naana. But for higher magga naana monks excel. -------------------- Sukin: It is not so much a question of the one being more conducive for higher attainments, but rather that those with particular accumulations would be well suited to become monks. And with the attainment of Arahat, it is impossible to live the life of a householder. Indeed, the important landmark is not the higher attainments, but the eradication of wrong view and the attainment of Stream-Entry. === ------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha did not congratulate His disciples monks who was stuck just in sotapanna. For lay people who are puthujana it is yes the important landmark. Example: Kujjuttaraa The maid of Queen Saamaavatii stole money for buying flowers. She bought with half money given by Q.Saamaavatii. Half the money was stolen. This happened until Kujjuttaraa heard Dhamma directly from the Buddha. Here comes the landmark. On that particular day she bought flower with full money. So there are plenty of flower and it was more than usual. Queen asked "what happened Kujjuttaraa?". She explained the whole situation. Queen thought "Ooop this is quite impossible. The dhamma she knew must be very very good so that she deserted her bad practice of stealing. I must asked her for". Kujjuttaraa did not preach immediately as she had respect to the Buddha. So she had a nice bath and she was given a higher seat to sit and higher ranked Queen sat at a lower place to listen Dhamma. At the end of preaching by Kujjuttaraa Queen also became sotapanna. In Myanmar there were poor people working selling goods. Some insincere people sold fake goods, edible oil was mixed with cheaper oil, higher quality gasoline was also mixed with cheaper one. After listening to preaching by Sayadaw Javana (Myittarshin Shwe Pyi Thar) the behaviour changed. They no more do bad things even they do not have enough food. ------------------------------ > Sukin: > What connection is there between the understanding which sees danger in sense contacts and one which understands the present dhamma, be it kuslaa, akusala or avyakata, as conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta? ----------------------- > Htoo: > Mind is so fast. Mind comprises cittas. When it says 'mind' this seems 'mind is permanent one'. But citta is not in this matter. Citta just lasts a moment. In a blink or in a time when fingers are flicked there happens more than 1,000,000,000,000 cittas. Who see these cittas except Sammaasambuddha? Can you see? ------------------------------------------------------------- Suk: Are you suggesting that the development of understanding and achieving vipassana involves coming to experience individual cittas? Does it matter how many cittas have arisen and fallen away when a nimitta of any nama or rupa is experienced by panna of some level? What the Buddha suggested to Bahiya and what is taught in the Satipatthana Sutta, is this about coming to see individual cittas? ------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Theoretical understanding is not own pa~n~naa. Theoretical understanding is far from experiential understanding. There were many ariyaa in Myanmar. Some were illiterate or Paa.li-pitaka illiterate. They just got instructions by Ledy Sayadaw (in his time)/ Kyaungpan Sayadaw (in his time)/ Moegok Sayadaw (in his time) and many other dhamma teachers-dhamma practitioners (Mahasi, Sai Inn Guu, Sunlun, Kannii, Maung Htaung, Myay Zin,Pa Auk, Shwe Kyin, Shwe Oo Daung Taung, Wai Bhuu, Mingun, Moe Hnyin, Khantii and many others). Lay people also in dhamma instructions. Example: Anaagaamii Saya Thet Kyi. He is grand-teacher of SN Goenka. U Ba Khin was a disciple of Saya Thet Kyi. SN Goenka is a disciple of U Ba Khin. U Ba Khin had many disciples in Asia, Europe, and America. All these people practice for experiential understanding. Today is time of Neyya (must practice). Those people would be able to answer your questions whatever if dhamma-related but they will answer in simple way. But you may not be able to answer their questions if they raise. They changed and they left landmarks that they changed in their behavior (not just suppressed). And they could even passed on dhamma to next generations. >==== > Dhammasa`nga.nii describes there are kusala, akusala, and abyaakata. > > > > 1. kusala (sinless, flawless,errorless) > > 2. akusala(sinful) > > 3. abyaakata (neither kusala nor akusala_abyaakato). > > > > Kusala and akusala only arise while in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas > also arise in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas are abyaakata. > > > > Vipaaka cittas are also abyaakata. > > > > Can you see patisandhi cittas? > > Can you see cuti cittas? > > Can you see bhava`nga cittas? ---------------------------------------------- Sukin: And your point for asking this kind of question is? Let me guess. It is to justify the practice of being mindful of postures and conventional activities....? -------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though not directly. --------------------------------------------------------- > ==== > > Cittas are very fast. One is immediately replaced by next arising > citta when vanishes and santati is so maintained in this way covering > the mind-eyes of puthujanas. >The function of panna is to "understand", step by step, different aspects of nama and rupa, most if not all of which do not require the experience of individual cittas arising in succession, one distinct from the next. > > === > > > Those who never know anatta may see the danger of sense contacts. > > > Right, so how does the latter help in the arising of the former? > > > ==== > > Very present moment is difficult to see. When some fact is understood > this is done by panna-led-kaamavacara-kusala-javana-cittas. At this time > there is no more original object for most manodvaaraviitti. > > > So? > > ==== > > > Speaking is easy. Writing is easy. To see dhamma is not so easy. > > > You are writing and you speak. Is it a meaningless endeavor? > > > ==== > > Close your eyes! Then open your eyes! What do you see? If you see as > usual then the lineage has not been changed yet. If you see differently > this has to be checked by living ariiyas like arahats or anaagaa.ms > . > > > Panna understands, and it knows also that it needs to develop further, > no need to ask anyone. To understand that there is no understanding, is > itself a level of panna. It is not a question of whether one perceives > people and things when opening one's eyes, but understanding what is what. > > > Metta, > > Sukin > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #131734 From: Sukinder Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sukin (et al) sukinderpal Hello Tony, > T: "THEY DO EXIST BUT THEIR MODE OF EXISTENCE IS ILLUSORY AND > DECEPTIVE. THEY APPEAR TO THE MIND. THEY APPEAR TO EXIST > INDEPENDENTLY. AS SOON AS WE LABEL WE'RE LABELING SOMETHING THAT DOES > NOT EXIST OTHER THAN A CONCEPT IN OUR MINDS." > > Sukin: Are you saying to the effect that nothing exists independently > of the mind, and / or what is known must go through an interpretive > process whether it is thinking or not? > > When a flag blows in the wind, what moves - the flag or your mind? > The only reality that functions to cause "movement" is the wind element, one of the four primary physical elements. This is experienced by body consciousness and can't be seen. The mind does not move, but arises together with a set of mental factors to experience an object only to fall away immediately. This is the characteristic of impermanence, not movement. Flag is a concept, and flag moving is therefore also concept. So perhaps it could be said that "a flag blowing in the wind" is a mind created.... > > The title of these thread is misleading. Can heat be separate from its > appearance? Heat AND its appearance implies there is 'heat'...then > there is ITS appearance. Almost as though there is this entity called > heat that has qualities, one of which is its appearance. This is how > it appears, but NOT how it exists. > What "appears" is the characteristic of heat. But heat burns and freezes too. So apparently there is more to it than the appearance, isn't it? More importantly, heat arises with the other three primary physical phenomena and with at least four other derived ones. This is why you can for example, see as well as experience through body-sense, the heat of what is subsequently conceived of as "sun". Heat appears to body consciousness and can be understood for what it is by the mental factors of wisdom. This knowledge can include the fact that heat arises by conditions that do not include the experience of it. And wisdom can also understand that to believe that heat is mind dependent, is the result of wrong view. > Think about it, what can you describe as existing outside of the mind. > I certainly cannot think of anything, and if I did it would be a > thought. Not heat, hardness, sound either. > Well, the value of the Buddha's teachings is precisely in the fact that wisdom can be developed to understand the nature of any mental or physical phenomena, different from what these are otherwise conceived of as. Indeed this is because one important step is the understanding that concepts are the object of the thinking process, different from realities, each with particular characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, in other words, "sabhava". ;-) And "all" sabhava dhammas are conditioned by other sabhava dhammas some of which do not include any experiencing. > I would point out that 'mind' too is a concept as is > Shunyata/Emptiness. Emptiness too is 'empty' - See Heart Sutra. > This is philosophical nonsense. If nothing else, this "concept" itself is the result of the function a particular set of mental realities, each with different characteristics, all very real and without which, you and I wouldn't be communicating to each other. And if there were no physical realities "outside of the mind" rising and falling away by conditions, I wouldn't be able to type this message on my computer and you wouldn't be reading it on yours. Metta, Sukin #131735 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:18 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Hi Phil, Ph: Why isn't samattha a paramis? Samattha can be discussed in theory, as with any refined and rarefied Nama that we are very very very unlike to know directly. You understand that. If meditators don't ( and they don't or they wouldn't advocate the intentional accumulation of lobha ditthi) it is their problem, I know... A: I don't know, some might assume they are actually developing parami while they're sitting focusing on this or that. Anyway, the best thing is not being forgetful about realities right now, like seeing and visible object, that moment just before thinking thinks about things like a bright screen filled in by words, or about the people that filled it in; without them there would be no things or people, no world at all without realities/conditions (not even a cushion on which to sit on :-). Alberto #131736 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:03 am Subject: Vipassanaa_016 (DT 903 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, In kamma.t.thaana there are two kinds. The first one is samatha-kamma.t.thaana and the second one is vipassanaa-kamma.t.thaana. That is there are samatha and vipassana. Aanapaanassati can lead to samatha as well as vipassana. There are 4 tetrads in aanaapaanassati sutta.m The first tetrad is for foundation. The second tetrad is for jhaana. The third tetrad is for samapatti. The fourth tetrad is for vipassana. Paa.li canon is concise, neat, compressed and there is no extra nor reduction. Nothing to add and nothing to subtract. In abhidhammatthasa`ngaha text there mentions: " Vipassanaa kamma.t.thaane pana siilav-visuddhi, citta-visuddhi, di.t.thi-visuddhi, ka`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi, maggaamagga~naa.nadassana-visuddhi, pa.tipadaa~naa.nadassana-visuddhi, ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi , ceti sattavidhena visuddhi sa`ngaho." 1. siila-visuddhi (purification of morality) 2. citta-visuddhi (purification of mind) 3. di.t.thi-visuddhi (purification of view) 4. ka`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi(purification of doubt) 5. maggaamagga~naa.nadassana-visuddhi(purification of path) 6. pa.tipadaa~naa.nadassana-visuddhi(purification of practice) 7. ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi (purification of wisdom) May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131737 From: "azita" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:39 am Subject: Re: The second question gazita2002 Hallo Phil, I'd like to answer these questions from what I understand. "What is seeing?' Seeing is a citta which experiences visible object only. "Is there seeing now" yes, because visible object appears. "Does seeing appear?" the citta which sees? I have to answer no, because there is certainly no precise knowing of that particular citta. "is there understanding of seeing that appears now?" theoretical understanding maybe, but no precise understanding of the reality of seeing now. Honestly, who knows the difference between seeing and visible object? That knowledge is called nama-rupa- pariccheda-naana, the first stage of insight, that clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of rupa as they appear one at a time. "Before enlightenment can be attained, mahaa- kusala citta which is accompanied by panna has to consider and investigate the characteristics of all kinds of naama and rupa over and over again, life after life. In this way, understanding of realities can grow." - from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 30 - The stages of Vipassana. Patience, courage and good cheer azita > Hi Azita > > > > Then the 3rd question could be " is there any understanding of the reality which appears now?" > > > Interesting. Cuz sometimes dhammas are arising (yes to the second question) but don't appear to our awareness? (No to the 3rd question.) or maybe the 3rd question could be Is the reality appearing and the 4th could be is there understanding of it? > > What is seeing? > Is there seeing now? > Does seeing appear? > Is there understanding of seeing that appears now? > > > Does that make sense or are the second and third questions redundant? > > Phil #131738 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:50 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Hi Alberto > Why isn't samattha a paramis? Samattha can be discussed > in theory, as with any refined and rarefied Nama that we are very very very > unlike to know directly. You understand that. If meditators don't ( and they > don't or they wouldn't advocate the intentional accumulation of lobha ditthi) it > is their problem, I know... > > A: > I don't know, some might assume they are actually developing parami while they're sitting focusing on this or that. Of course. I worded the above badly. They don't explicitly advocate accumulating lobha ditthi. They believe it is bhavana. On the other hand, they do say that they think any greed involved is not a problem, they quote a sutta that says use akusala to get rid of kusala. That sutta seems to give a carte Blanche to the most outrageous of aims, such as becoming an aritan by following this practice or that practice continuously for some period of time. > Anyway, the best thing is not being forgetful about realities right now, like seeing and visible object, This is always best. Seeing and and visible object and thinking based on it, hearing and sound and thinking based on it. But no rules. Unlike the title of C.S Lewis' memoir on his conversion to Catholocism in middle age, Surprised by Joy. We may be surprised by the awareness of the characteristics of dhammas such as metta, or even samattha. But if we are looking for them, only lobha I always think the first sutta in SN is so important. If we stand still we sink, if we press too hard, we are swept away. Listening is best. I think awareness is conditioned by listening. But no rules lest it become a practice with anticipation of progress. (We can be surprised by awareness of that anticipation as well.) Phil that moment just before thinking thinks about things like a bright screen filled in by words, or about the people that filled it in; without them there would be no things or people, no world at all without realities/conditions (not even a cushion on which to sit on :-). #131739 From: "philip" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:53 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Hi again iPhone typo. Unlike that title should be I like that title. Phil #131740 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:40 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > =============== > > RE: So at the actual moment of satipattana, sampajana or panna arising, the accompanying cetasikas - and perhaps the conditions that cause it to arise...? - would have to include the kusala factors and exclude the akusala factors mentioned. > > =============== > > J: Yes, the set of conditions that conditions the arising of the kusala moment is a completely different set of conditions to that which conditions the arising of the akusala moment. > > Akusala moments are rooted in attachment, aversion and/or ignorance, while kusala moments are rooted in one or more of the kusala roots (i.e., the opposites of the 3 akusala roots). Do we know how it happens that one set of conditions that are akusala are suddenly replaced in the next moment with a whole different set that are kusala, or is that one of the great mysteries of conditionality? I mean, conditions are things that have come before which condition what comes next. They don't just come out of nowhere do they? How do all these different sets suddenly pop up to cause completely different sorts of moments? Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - #131741 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:42 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Hi again > > iPhone typo. > > Unlike that title should be I like that title. If that's the iphone's spellcheck it's pretty perverse - unlike isn't even really a word, although I guess it is on Facebook... As in "please don't unlike me." Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #131742 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:30 pm Subject: Similes we love ( was [dsg] Re: Door = reality... Htoo's Simile sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > For me the dome of lobha is not so much about keeping the rain of defilements out, though I can now add that element into the reflection. ... S: I don't think that was it at all - it was, as I said, about "opening the covering or roof of attachment and ignorance with understanding so that gradually the defilements stop soaking, stop accumulating..." When they are concealed or hidden, there is excessive rain of defilements. When they are apparent, they don't rain any more. .... >For me the dome of lobha is the layer of thinking and conceptualization which so quickly spreads as soon as their is seeing etc, the vipallasa of perceived permanence and self, the distorted perception that hides reality. Sure that ends up leading to more and more accumulationof defilements. Gradually developing understanding of the arisen reality, the hole in the dome, the island in the sea, the beak peck hole in the shell, such seemingly all opening, such momentary standing-on-solid ground...then the dome is sealed again, the sea sweeps us away again...but sure the only way away from defilements is through understanding. ... S: Yes....only undestanding - the hole in the dome, leading to a bigger and bigger hole until no more dome of lobha at all. ... > I think a wise friend can give us helpful similes without them having to be from tipikitka. Knowing how much I love and how deeply I understand baseball, a wise Dhamma friend who knew baseba could come up with some great similes to help me understand better based on a world that the Buddha and arahants knew nothing of. ... S: Exactly - the similes are just to make the meaning clearer in everyday language. Can't help with the baseball similes! Metta Sarah ===== #131743 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 37. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >S: If there is no understanding of dhammas as anatta, as elements only - those that experience and those that cannot experience anything - then it's impossible to understand these khandhas as anicca or dukkha. > >P: Ok. In SN there seems to be a kind of progression of anicca>dukkha>anatta but I am sure that is an oversold fixation and I have no interest in trying to find. The specific characteristics of realities are what interest me and the fact that there is no one in charge, just dhammas performing functions. .... S: Yes... so dhammas have to be understood as just dhammas, not atta, from the start. However, atta-view is so deeply rooted that all wrong view of atta can only be eradicated at the first stage of insight when conditioned dhammas have been clearly understood as anicca and dukkha. .... > >S: Each conditioned reality is a khandha, so not sure why you ask your last question. ... >P: Ok. I had been operating under an assumption (probably a wrong teaching picked up from listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi talks a few years ago) that khandas referred to all five together but I can see that only one at a time could be object of awareness so what you say above makes sense. ... S: While the nama khandhas arise together, only one object can ever be experienced, can ever be object of sati and panna as you say. Metta Sarah ==== #131744 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) sarahprocter... Hi Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > S: So is there only the mind-door through which experience occurs or are there 5 sense-doors too? How many doorways did the Buddha speak about? Did he say that actually there is no eye-door, no body-door in reality, only 'appearances' through the mind door? > > See Heart Sutra... "no eye, no ear, no touch........." ... S: Sorry, Tony..... but here we don't look to the Heart Sutra or Mahayana texts:-) So better to stick to your own words, your own understanding and if you want to support it, quote from Theravada texts which we can discuss. Metta Sarah ===== #131745 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:07 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (3) sarahprocter... Hi Tony, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > > > S: So you are saying that 'heat' is "illusory". Is that correct? What is a "mode of existence" otherwise? > > T: No heat isn't illusory. It hurts. ... S: To be precise, it is the experience of it, the painful bodily feeling, which hurts. .... > S: So, we can distinguish between the 'appearances' or concepts and what isn't illusory, i.e a reality. So this is the distinction between heat and cooker - the first is a non-illusory reality, the second is a concept or 'appearance'!!! > >T: >No, this too is incorrect (in my understanding) - I feel like there is a fundamental point I am not articulating here. > > Can you describe something that exists but does not appear to the mind. If so how does it exist without a mind to apprehend it? ... S: I've asked you to describe what you mean by mind, but to no avail. According to the Buddha's Teachings, citta or mano mean the same. There is one citta at each instant experiencing an object. So seeing is citta, hearing is citta, moments of experiencing through the mind-door are citta. So at a moment when heat is experienced, it is citta that experiences it. If there is no experience of the heat, the heat rupas still arise and fall away in a group of rupas, but no experience. The unexperienced rupas are stil real, but not known. ... > > Nargajuna (et al) would content that for something to exist it has to be an object of mind. If its not an object of mind then it is a non-existent. Heat becomes and object of mind via the sense doorways. Prior to that what is it? ... S: No need to refer to Nargajuna! If heat rupa had not already arisen, it could not be experienced. A rupa last 17 times as long as a citta. ... > > Heat/cooker...same. One hurst when touched. ... S: There has to be the clear understanding of the distinction between namas - those realities which can experience an object and rupas - those realities which cannot experience anything. Heat (tejo rupa) cannot hurt or harm. It is the experience of that rupa which hurts. ... >The other cooks when turned on. ... S: There is no 'cooker rupa'. When we say there is a cooker which cooks when turned on, in fact it's conventionally true, but in reality, there are just various elements, various rupas involved which are taken for being a cooker. ... >T:Take away the source of heat (fire, radiation), no heat. Take away the cookers hobs....now the 'cooker' is a 'broken cooker' ...'useless'....etc. More labels. > > I cannot spot how heat (an apprearance to mind dependent on the arising of certain aggregates) and a cooker (also an apprearance to mind dependent on the arising of certain aggregates) are different. ... S: Because, with respect, I don't think you're beginning to understand what we're saying. Heat is a reality, not "an appearance to mind". Cooker is a concept which is not conditioned or dependent. It is just an idea thought about. Metta Sarah ===== #131746 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:27 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_012 (DT 899 ) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > The king first takes on a cart and then changes another cart after a length of road. This change takes seven times and finally the king reaches the city that he wants to go. > > The first cart is siilavisuddhi. Second cittavisuddhi, third di.t.thivusuddhi, fourth ki`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi, fifth maggaamagga-~naa.nadassana-visuddhi, sixth pa.tipadaa-~naanadassana-visuddhi, and finally the seventh ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi. > > Even though this seems serial all seven purifications are required to attain nibbaana. Among the seven one is cittavisuddhi. For cittavisuddhi one has to develop a good concentration. There are many ways to develop a good concentration or samaadhi. ... S: And no visuddhi or any kind without the right understanding of realities. Metta Sarah ===== #131747 From: sprlrt@... Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:47 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? sprlrt Hi Phil, Ph: Listening is best. I think awareness is conditioned by listening. Yes, again and again and..., because the truth is so subtle, even just in words, until they become upanissaya gocara, the object of intellectual understanding about realities. In Poland Ajahn talked a lot about the three gocaras (also aarakkha and upanibhanda): on the 11th, pm-D, 20m; 12th, pm-A 12m; 13th, b/f, 4m; 17th, am-A, 9m. Alberto #131748 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:36 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_012 (DT 899 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > The king first takes on a cart and then changes another cart after a length of road. This change takes seven times and finally the king reaches the city that he wants to go. > > > > The first cart is siilavisuddhi. Second cittavisuddhi, third di.t.thivusuddhi, fourth ki`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi, fifth maggaamagga-~naa.nadassana-visuddhi, sixth pa.tipadaa-~naanadassana-visuddhi, and finally the seventh ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi. > > > > Even though this seems serial all seven purifications are required to attain nibbaana. Among the seven one is cittavisuddhi. For cittavisuddhi one has to develop a good concentration. There are many ways to develop a good concentration or samaadhi. ... S: And no visuddhi or any kind without the right understanding of realities. Metta Sarah ===== ------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. 1. siila-visuddhi bases on understanding. 2. citta-visuddhi bases on understanding 3. di.t.thi-visuddhi bases on understanding 4. ka`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi bases on understanding 5. maggaamagga~naa.nadassana-visuddhi bases on understanding 6. pa,tipadaa~naa.nadassana-visuddhi bases on understanding 7. ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi bases on understanding Understanding is the head. But the head alone cannot go far without effort. With respect, Htoo Naing #131749 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:56 am Subject: Vipassanaa_017 (DT 904 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhammacakka pavattana sutta.m is the Buddha's first discourse. It mainly focuses on ariya-saccaa or 4 Noble Truths namely 1. dukkha-sacca (dukkha-ariya-saccaa) (the noble truth of suffering) 2. samudaya-sacca(dukkha-samudaya-ariya-sacca) (the noble truth of the cause of suffering) 3. niridha-sacca(dukkha-nirodha-ariya-saccaa) (the noble truth of the cessation of suffering) 4. magga-sacca (dukkha-nirodha-gaaminii-pa.tipadaa-ariya-saccaa) (the noble truth of the path leading to cessation of suffering). These 4 saccaa have 3-folds of ~naa.na. Each has 1. sacca ~naa.na 2. kicca ~naa.na 3. kata ~naa.na So there are 12 sacca-~naa.na. When at the time of magga citta, the magga-citta itself leads all 8 parts of magga`nga cetasikas and also lead other sobhana-saadhaara.na cetasikas. These magga`nga cetasikas and magga-citta comprise magga saccaa or dukkha-nirodha-gaaminii-pa.tipadaa-ariya-saccaa. The object at that time is nibbaana. Nibbaana is nirodha sacca. It is dukkha-nirodha sacca. It is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering. While nibbaana is being directly seen relevant-ta.nhaa are all eradicated including anusaya. The eradicated portion of ta.nhaa is samudaya-sacca or the noble truth of the cause of suffering. There is a thin line in three successive javana cittas namely 1. anuloma citta, gotrabhu citta, and magga citta. Anuloma citta is kaamaavacara-mahaa-kusala-citta and it takes the object "sa`nkhaara". The citta is puthujana citta and the object is lokiya aaramma.na. Gotrabhu citta is also puthujana citta but it does not take sa`nkhaara as its object. It takes nibbaana as its object. Gotrabhu citta is lineage-changing consciousness. It is the only puthujana citta that can see nibbaana directly. After gotrabhu there follow magga citta. Magga citta is ariya citta. It takes nibbaana as its object. So in magga viithi there are 1. gotrabhu 2. magga citta 3. 1st phala citta 4. 2nd phala citta 5. (3rd phala citta in some individual) These 4 or 5 kha.nas all directly look at nibbaana. Not to sa`nkhaara. At ordinary time (that is not in magga viithi) all puthujana and all ariya take the object sa`nkhaara. It looks like birth-death (arising-falling away/ appearing-disappearing/ coming-vanishing) stop at that time. Moegok Sayadaw summarized as birth-death seen, birth-death hated_dispassionated, and birth-death ended. The first two see sa`nkhaara and the last see nibbaana. The first 4 sacca-~naa.nas are sacca-~naa.nas. They are to understand. Without understanding nibbaana cannot be attained. The second 4 sacca-~naa.nas are kicca-~naa.nas. The are to perform, to do, to implement, to work. Without kicca-~naa.nas nibbaana cannot be obtained. The last 4 sacca-~naa.nas are kata-~naa.nas. They are accomplishment. They are pa.tivedha ~naa.nas. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131750 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:36 am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: ----------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > When walk try to know walking. At first 'say in mind'. SO that mind cannot sway. 'walking' 'walking' 'walking'. Later he understands that from the very first movement to the last movement just before to stop to stand there are many things happen. Arising and falling away. All are kaayavinnaa.na cittas arising and falling away. ... S: Those dhammas which arise now, whether we're sitting or walking, do so by conditions. There will never be the growth of understanding by repeating words or trying to control the mind. ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not writing on understanding here. Understanding parts have been done in earlier DTs. I wrote 'walking' that is during the action of walking. Word-repeating is not main thing here. Nothing is control here when walking. Arising mind one after another are being contemplated. Direction can be to naama things or ruupa things. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Mahaasii Sayadaw instructed to walk as if feeble person as if an ill person. That is slowly. Very slowly (I rember Sarah's word 'walking slowly in Hong Kong). ... S: ??? No, I've never suggested walking slowly or feebly as a way to develop understanding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did not say you suggested walking slowly. It is 'yes'. You did say 'walking slowly'. Please see in past messages in 2005. You just talked on Hong Kong. Very windy. I did not say walking slowly is a way to develop understanding. And Mahasi Sayadaw did not did not say it was a away to understanding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Magga citta will never never arise naturally. Actually following realities. When in walking ( or sitting, or lying, or standing) arising things are kept being seen. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not true. Nothing is controlled. Guidance is necessary. Without guidance may lead to unfruitful. The part understanding is as I wrote in today post DT 904 in sacca-~naa.nas of 12 sacca-~naa.na. Here in walking or sitting or standing or lying is for kicca-~naa.nas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken. ... S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities. ... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You had better fulfill all bojjha`ngas and magga`ngas. If you are fulfilling then you will see that arising dhammas have so and so characters as your own understanding not by-heart-learnt things. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana. ... S: Again, I disagree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why not? Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha says " sammasana ~naa.na.m udayabbaya ~naa.na.m ba`nga ~naa.na.m bhaya ~naa.na.m aadiinava ~naa.na.m nibbidaa ~naa.na.m muccitukamyataa ~naa>na.m pa.tisa`nkhaa ~naa.na.m sa`nkhaarupekkhaa ~naa.na.m anuloma ~naa.na~nceti dasa vipassanaa ~naa.naani." Naama-ruupa vavatthaana ~naa.na or naama-ruupa-pariccheda ~naa.na is not true vipassanaa ~naa.na. Aslo for paccayapariggaha ~naa.na. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all. Metta Sarah ====== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you missed something. Digest abhidhammatthasa`ngaha then digest visuddhimagga. Next digest abhidhamma-pitaka from dhammasa`nga.nii , vibha`nga, dhaatukathaa, puggalapa~n~natti, kathaavatthu, yamaka, pa.t.thaana. Check with original texts not with translations only. With Unlimited Metta Friend in Dhamma Htoo Naing #131751 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:32 am Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > Mahaasii instruct to concentrate on abdomen. Rising and falling. AT first call in the mind as 'rising and falling'. Later instructed to concentrate on the sense of 'tenseness' and 'looseness'. Paramattha is there. It is vaayo. Vaayo here works as object. It is ruupa. It is vayo pho.t.thabba. So it is kaayaanupassanaa. ... S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is because disparity between two persons two people. Your brain's wave length and Mahasi Sayadaw's brain's wave length are totally unmatched. There were fighting among Mahasi's followers and Pa Auk Sayadaw's followers. Mahasi Sayadaw was a respected Mahaa Thera. He was taken the position of "Sa.tha`ngiiti Pucchaka Sayadaw". He well digested tipi.takas. What he wrote were all flawless. Even there is no punctuation error. He stayed according to Vinaya. He went to the forest in Thathon Township. He had stayed and slept in cemetry. Cemetries in Myanmar are not like in the West at his time. Recently dead, 2-day-old corpse etc were deserted. He went through all possible as in tipi.takas. While some other Sayadaws's writing were checked and not passed to general population according to decisions of Vinaya-teams, Mahasi Sayadaw's writing were flawless and error free. Small errors such as dropping comma, missing fullstop (in Myanmar _tha wai htoe ka sa pyin za yar ma lo bhuu). Mahasi Sayadaw preached desanakkama but always always always include pa.tipatti things not just pariyatti only. The instructions he gave were just for simplification but when in the centre he always explained in accordance with tipi.taka. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Saha: Such instructions are not compatible with the development of satipatthana and the understanding of dhammas as anatta. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All these have been discussed in above bays. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: They are based on an idea of a self being able to select an object and a looking for a short-cut, a simplification to develop awareness, motivated by a wish for results, a growth of understanding, but not an understanding of what realities, such as hardness, motion are. There is no understanding of what is meant by kaayaanupassanaa at such times. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally wrong. There are things which stop arising of magga ~naa.na. One of them is accusation on simless saints. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Saha: I appreciate the way that the Pali texts have been shared and made available by such Sayadaws, but not the wrong practices which are not in conformity with these texts. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are recordings on Cha.tthasa`ngaayanaa. His practice did conform with texts. You should have met him personally. Once a group of foreigners with many people came and visited Mahasi Meditation Centre (Tharthanart Yeikthar). They met Mahasi Sayadaw. Mahasi Sayadaw sent them to another Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhaddanta Sujaata). That Sayadaw spoke Paa.li and the foreigners who initially behaved like micchaaditthi a~n~natitthi they finally worshipped that Mahasi Sayadaw and called for Saadhu! three times after hearing dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I think it is the same with the Abhidhamma and detail brought to Thailand by teachers such as A.Naeb with the help of the Sayadaws - wonderful for people to have access to the Teachings, but not to these practices revolving around the idea of a Self taking action and being aware. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you missed the point. Such things happened in the past even in Ledi's time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Some meditators concentrate on where tenseness or looseness exists. Then they are directing to kaayapasaada which just last 17 cittakkha.na. Mahaasii Sayadaw (Late MS) saw or realised that there are bhava`nga cittas as experience. ... S: Concentrating on particular objects, trying to experience or being directed to sense bases, bhavanga cittas or any other realities is not the understanding of what appears now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not particular object. Not bhavanga cittas. What I said is "bhava`nga cittas as experience". Re-read above in the old post. I did not say directing to bhava`nga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You made some passing reference to slow walking in Hong Kong. I have no idea what you were referring to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Read in another post today or old posts in 2005. You did wrote 'walking slowly'. At that time we talked on Hong Kong where you said 'windy'. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: It makes no difference at all whether one walks fast or slow in terms of the development of awareness and understanding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is brain's wave length problem, I think. Buddha did not instruct to walk fast. Vinaya says not to swing arms widely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: There are always realities - it doesn't depend on the way one walks but on the understanding as to whether there is any awareness. If there is any idea of slowing down and trying to be aware, it is wrong view and practice which will just impede such awareness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is why some follow one tradition and another follow another tradition. Nissayas are different. You can choose not to meditate. You can choose to understand dhamma arising now whatever way you want. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... > > Anatta is seen at first visit to nibbaana. > > Anicca is especially seen at second visit to nibbaana. > > Asubha is especially seen at third visit to nibbaana. > > Dukkha is especially seen at last visit to nibbaana. .... S: If there is no understanding of realities as anatta now, there will never be any "visit to nibbana". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You need to go through many definitions of atta. Then go through difinition of anatta. Can anatta be seen directly without anicca? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: These characteristics of realities have to appear before the attainment of the first stage of enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They do not need to appear. They are there all the time. The problem is that sattas do not see. No one can see without the help of Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ... > > When asubha is realised then meditators become anaagaamii. ... S: I think that what you mean is that at the stage of the anagami all preversion of views of dhammas as subha (beautiful) is completely eradicated. Similarly, all perversion of views of dhammas as sukha (satisfatory/happy) is eradicated at stage of arahat. > > > > Yes, asubha is not a sign of dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nothing need to say here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: .... S: All conditioned dhammas are asubha, not subha, because that which arises and falls away cannot be beautiful. "Sensing no change in the changing, Sensing pleasure in suffering, Assuming "self" where there's no self, Sensing the un-lovely as lovely β€" Gone astray with wrong views, beings Mis-perceive with distorted minds." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.olen.html Metta Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sarah for your kind criticsim. Ledi Sayadaw taught There are 2. They are naama and ruupa in the whole universe. There are 3. They are sukha, dukkha, and adukkhamasukha. There are 4. They are dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, and magga. There are 5. They are 1. ruupakkhandhaa ( 28 ruupas) 2. vedanaakkhandhaa 3. sa~n~naakkhandhaa 4. sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa 5. vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa There are 6. Cakkhu, sota, ghaana, jivhaa, kaaya, mano If go through abhidhammaa more than 100,000 dhammas and these cannot be directly seen in real life. Workability first. There is no time. Today is neyya time. No practice no attainment. With Unlimited Metta, Friend in Dhamma Htoo Naing #131752 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:48 am Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Hi Alberto . > In Poland Ajahn talked a lot about the three gocaras (also aarakkha and upanibhanda): on the 11th, pm-D, 20m; 12th, pm-A 12m; 13th, b/f, 4m; 17th, am-A, 9m. > Thanks. On your recommendation, I will listen to these sections. Btw, thanks again for your transcriptions, you've earned a good break. I'm afraid that since I am limited to iPhone now, no way to transcribe. #131753 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:04 am Subject: Re: The second question philofillet Hi Azita (with ? For * Nina half way through) > I'd like to answer these questions from what I understand. > > "What is seeing?' Seeing is a citta which experiences visible object only. > > "Is there seeing now" yes, because visible object appears. > > "Does seeing appear?" the citta which sees? I have to answer no, because there is certainly no precise knowing of that particular citta. > > "is there understanding of seeing that appears now?" theoretical understanding maybe, but no precise understanding of the reality of seeing now. Ph: I think your answer sound correct. I just wonder about "precise understanding." Does there have to be precise understanding for us to say that a dhamma appears? You may remember that I got and I guess still am attached to a portion of a discussion in which Ajahn said that rupa appears more often than n a m a. Sarah disputed that sportily and Ajahn said well can we say n a m a is more subtle? And Sarah feistily fought that as well! And some years later when it was brought up at JK when I was there Ajahn agrees with Sarah. No rules. But I still feel that rupa appears more often and is less subtle. No rules about trying to see rupa more, butcI just have a bunch that it is a nature of rupa to appear more than mama. Which brings us back to what "appears" means. Becomes an object if awareness? Is that awareness precise? * Nina, can we ask you? > Honestly, who knows the difference between seeing and visible object? That knowledge is called nama-rupa- pariccheda-naana, the first stage of insight, that clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of rupa as they appear one at a time. Ph: Until this first stage of insight we can only speculate on what n a m a is arising based on the situation. (In my opinion.) > > "Before enlightenment can be attained, mahaa- kusala citta which is accompanied by panna has to consider and investigate the characteristics of all kinds of naama and rupa over and over again, life after life. In this way, understanding of realities can grow." - from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 30 - The stages of Vipassana. > SPD is the greatest book in the history of the universe except for Bill James' Baseball Abstract. Phil #131754 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:59 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_012 (DT 899 ) philofillet Hello Htoo > Understanding is the head. But the head alone cannot go far without effort. You understand, of course, that effort is virya cetasika that arises with nearly every citta. Surely you are not advocating some conventional meaning of effort. (Actually you probably are, the conventional meaning of effort is the way of the world and the lifeblood of the meditation industry.) Phil #131755 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:22 am Subject: Re: To be more detached from realities epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Rob E > > > Understanding causes detachment. Panna directly understands the non-satisfying, non-self nature of dhammas and detaches from them. > > > > > Yes I suppose that could be true. But it would have to be the rarefied functioning of a kusala dhamma(s) rather than self thinking with pleasure about having insight into deep liberating topics. That is what "insight" is when I am involved and I'm pretty certain that is a common working of kilesas. Sure - in that case it is not panna, and is not understanding of the level of panna, not even pariyatti. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #131756 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > Htoo: > The Buddha enlightened on fullmoon day of 2nd month. Then passed into > phalasamaapatti for 7 weeks (satta-sattaaha). After that He thought > "Dhamma is subtle and difficult to understand. Shall I stay without > preaching". Once Brahma came down and asked for preaching dhammas as > there are many ready to liberated. > > The Buddha then considered whom to preach first. The first one came > into Buddha's mind was Aa.laara Kaalaama who possessed up to 7th > jhaana. Then The Buddha was informed A. Kaalaama passed away a week > back. Next appeared was Udaka Raamaputta who attained up to 8th > jhaana. Again The Buddha was reported U. Raamaputta died earlier this > morning. Next appeared in Buddha's mind was the group of 5 pancavaggii. > > This means that jhaanalaabhiis are ready to absorb anatta when explain > and directly fuse with nibbaana. > No, this means that those particular individuals had accumulated from the past, enough panna and other paramis. If being Jhanalabhi was helpful, why were there so many of them with wrong view, who could not appreciate the Buddha's teachings? What do you think were more in number, those who attained enlightenment by way of dry-insight or jhanalabis who attained together with jhana? > > Jhaana can be attain even in sunna kappas. Bodisatta deserted > Aa.laara kaalaama and Udaka Raamaputta (7th jhaana and 8th jhaana > owner) because there is no essence of dhamma. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > So, does the understanding related to samatha / jhana help to > understand the Buddha's Dhamma? > === > --------------------------------- > Htoo: Have answered above. (Sorry if I wrongly trim) > Can you go into more details regarding the relationship between the understanding which sees the harm in sensuous attachment and one which sees the danger in ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths)? I believe in fact, that the inclination to take attainments related to Jhana for "self", is much more likely, than any willingness to hear the Buddha's teachings and therefore understanding Jhana as conditioned and non-self. > Sukin: > It is not so much a question of the one being more conducive for > higher attainments, but rather that those with particular > accumulations would be well suited to become monks. And with the > attainment of Arahat, it is impossible to live the life of a > householder. Indeed, the important landmark is not the higher > attainments, but the eradication of wrong > view and the attainment of Stream-Entry. > === > ------------------------- > Htoo: > > The Buddha did not congratulate His disciples monks who was stuck just > in sotapanna. For lay people who are puthujana it is yes the important > landmark. > That was a matter of being still with some defilements vs. complete eradication. Of course it is only at Arahata when the work is fully done. But the question here is what is the more important and difficult step, from a puthujjana to sotapatti or from sotapatti through sakadagami and anagami to arahatta? If that mountain of a rock which is the defilements of the puthujjana has worn away by gradual rubbing with cloth, the step between sotapatti till arahatta is like cutting a small piece of butter with a knife. You are actually expressing lack of confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path! > Example: Kujjuttaraa > > The maid of Queen Saamaavatii stole money for buying flowers. She > bought with half money given by Q.Saamaavatii. Half the money was > stolen. This happened until Kujjuttaraa heard Dhamma directly from the > Buddha. Here comes the landmark. On that particular day she bought > flower with full money. So there are plenty of flower and it was more > than usual. Queen asked "what happened Kujjuttaraa?". She explained > the whole situation. > > Queen thought "Ooop this is quite impossible. The dhamma she knew must > be very very good so that she deserted her bad practice of stealing. I > must asked her for". Kujjuttaraa did not preach immediately as she had > respect to the Buddha. So she had a nice bath and she was given a > higher seat to sit and higher ranked Queen sat at a lower place to > listen Dhamma. At the end of preaching by Kujjuttaraa Queen also > became sotapanna. > > In Myanmar there were poor people working selling goods. Some > insincere people sold fake goods, edible oil was mixed with cheaper > oil, higher quality gasoline was also mixed with cheaper one. After > listening to preaching by Sayadaw Javana (Myittarshin Shwe Pyi Thar) > the behaviour changed. They no more do bad things even they do not > have enough food. > I think I miss the point here. Can you explain further what you are trying to get across? > > Sukin: > > What connection is there between the understanding which sees danger > in sense contacts and one which understands the present dhamma, be it > kuslaa, akusala or avyakata, as conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta? > ----------------------- > > Htoo: > > > Mind is so fast. Mind comprises cittas. When it says 'mind' this > seems 'mind is permanent one'. But citta is not in this matter. Citta > just lasts a moment. In a blink or in a time when fingers are flicked > there happens more than 1,000,000,000,000 cittas. Who see these cittas > except Sammaasambuddha? Can you see? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Suk: Are you suggesting that the development of understanding and > achieving vipassana involves coming to experience individual cittas? > Does it matter how many cittas have arisen and fallen away when a > nimitta of any nama or rupa is experienced by panna of some level? > What the Buddha suggested to Bahiya and what is taught in the > Satipatthana Sutta, is this about coming to see individual cittas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Theoretical understanding is not own pa~n~naa. Theoretical > understanding is far from experiential understanding. > Why have you suddenly made this into a discussion between pariyatti vs. patipatti? And should not all levels conform to each other such that there is no conflict between a statement made by pariyatti level and one made by patipatti or pattivedha? So why even point this out that what I state is "theoretical understanding"? > There were many ariyaa in Myanmar. Some were illiterate or > Paa.li-pitaka illiterate. They just got instructions by Ledy Sayadaw > (in his time)/ Kyaungpan Sayadaw (in his time)/ Moegok Sayadaw (in his > time) and many other dhamma teachers-dhamma practitioners (Mahasi, Sai > Inn Guu, Sunlun, Kannii, Maung Htaung, Myay Zin,Pa Auk, Shwe Kyin, > Shwe Oo Daung Taung, Wai Bhuu, Mingun, Moe Hnyin, Khantii and many > others). Lay people also in dhamma instructions. Example: Anaagaamii > Saya Thet Kyi. He is grand-teacher of SN Goenka. U Ba Khin was a > disciple of Saya Thet Kyi. SN Goenka is a disciple of U Ba Khin. U Ba > Khin had many disciples in Asia, Europe, and America. All these people > practice for experiential understanding. Today is time of Neyya (must > practice). > When asked what the factors to Sotapatti are, the Buddha said; Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. And when asked what leads to Arahatta, the same four factors were cited. The tradition that you come from, jump straight to "practice" without giving due consideration to the other three factors. Can a puthujjana practice correctly if there is no careful study of the Dhamma and pariyatti understanding from "long time hearing"? The fact that even a lower Ariyan needs to associate with the wise and continue to listen to the Dhamma, and the fact that your tradition does not give due consideration to the need to listen carefully and develop pariyatti understanding is evidence of lack of appreciation of the depth of the Buddhadhamma. And this can only be because of wrong understanding. And by the way, how do you know that these people were / are Ariyans? > Those people would be able to answer your questions whatever if > dhamma-related but they will answer in simple way. But you may not be > able to answer their questions if they raise. They changed and they > left landmarks that they changed in their behavior (not just > suppressed). And they could even passed on dhamma to next generations. > But you and the rest of the Burmese population understand their simple words don't you? And you have tried for so many years to pass on their understanding to us via your particular way of communication, but apparently that has not worked........ I wonder if there is going to be a change of approach now, or what? > > Dhammasa`nga.nii describes there are kusala, akusala, and abyaakata. > > > > > > 1. kusala (sinless, flawless,errorless) > > > 2. akusala(sinful) > > > 3. abyaakata (neither kusala nor akusala_abyaakato). > > > > > > Kusala and akusala only arise while in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas > > also arise in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas are abyaakata. > > > > > > Vipaaka cittas are also abyaakata. > > > > > > Can you see patisandhi cittas? > > > Can you see cuti cittas? > > > Can you see bhava`nga cittas? > ---------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > And your point for asking this kind of question is? Let me guess. > It is to justify the practice of being mindful of postures and > conventional activities....? > -------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though > not directly. > I see. But your "practice" comes across to me, as miccha patipatti, and you want to convince me that you have experienced (although indirectly) bhavanga cittas and be impressed? Metta, Sukin #131757 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:31 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, According to Dhammacakkappavattana sutta.m four noble truths have each own functions. Four noble truths have to be first understood with 4 sacca-saccaa-~naa.nas. All five bhikkhus (pancavaggii) were preached at the same time. Each heard at the same time. But only Ko.n.da~n~na understood and worked and done and attained the first nibbaana or attained sotaapatti magga ~naa.na. The Buddha then taught other bhikkhus while the function of alm round was done by Ko.n.da~n~na and one or two other bhikkhus. The next day Baddiya became to understand saccaa and worked saccaa-things and done what have to be done (visito). On third day Vappa did the same thing. On fourth day Mahaanaama became a sotaapanna. The last in that group of five to become a sotaapanna was Assaji who was the teacher of Saariputta (the Buddha first wing disciple_pa~n~naa etadagga). In these 5 days (1. fullmoon day, 2. 1st waningmoon day, 3. 2nd waning moon day, 4. 3rd waningmoon day, and 5. 4th waningmoon day) four other bhikkhus (exclude Ko.da.na~n~na) had to practice according to the Buddha instructions. On 4th waningmoon day all five were sotaapanna. After they became sotaapanna ( 4 had to perform, implement, do the practice) then the Buddha started the speech on " ANATTA ". The speech on "ANATTA" was preached to all sotapannas at that time. Dhamma is very subtle, dhamma is very deep, dhamma is very complex, dhamma is very complicated from the view of lay people who never heard of dhamma before. Even they heard of a few words this does not work to understand fully. Notice that "ANATTA" is preached to sotaapanna. The Buddha did not directly preache on "ANATTA". While some bhikkhus went for alm round the Buddha closely monitored the practising bhikkhus and when necessary he instructed and indicated what is what and why it is and so on. There are four types of people with regard to attainment of nibbaana. The first type is Ugghaatita~n~nuu who heard dhamma and become an arahat. The second type is vipa~n~ncita~n~nuu who need detail preaching on dhamma and become arahats. The third one is neyya who need to practice on dhamma to attain nibbaana. The fourth one is futile. He will never attain nibbaana in the current life. If someone die without sotaapannaship birth may be anywhere in 31 bhuumi but mostly in 4 woeful states or 4 apaaya bhuumi namely niraya, tiracchaana, peta, and asurakaaya. These 4 states are original home of puthujanas. If the chance is missed and die then the next life is insecure and may become other believers (naanaasatthaullokana baya). Then this will be a great loss. Neyya people have to do satipa.t.thaana intensively. May you be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #131758 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, and All, --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > According to Dhammacakkappavattana sutta.m four noble truths... then the Buddha started the speech on " ANATTA ". ... > T: It seems that the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta.m does not include the teaching of this insight: seeing (passati) directly body and mind phenomena `dhammas' (such as the five aggregates) as anicca, dukkha, anatta (i.e.,the connection between anicca, dukkha, anatta)? Regards, Thomas #131759 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: Hello Htoo, > Htoo: > The Buddha enlightened on fullmoon day of 2nd month. Then passed into phalasamaapatti for 7 weeks (satta-sattaaha). After that He thought "Dhamma is subtle and difficult to understand. Shall I stay without preaching". Once Brahma came down and asked for preaching dhammas as there are many ready to liberated. > The Buddha then considered whom to preach first. The first one came into Buddha's mind was Aa.laara Kaalaama who possessed up to 7th jhaana. Then The Buddha was informed A. Kaalaama passed away a week back. Next appeared was Udaka Raamaputta who attained up to 8th jhaana. Again The Buddha was reported U. Raamaputta died earlier this morning. Next appeared in Buddha's mind was the group of 5 pancavaggii. > This means that jhaanalaabhiis are ready to absorb anatta when explain and directly fuse with nibbaana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: No, this means that those particular individuals had accumulated from the past, enough panna and other paramis. If being Jhanalabhi was helpful, why were there so many of them with wrong view, who could not appreciate the Buddha's teachings? What do you think were more in number, those who attained enlightenment by way of dry-insight or jhanalabis who attained together with jhana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It cannot be wrong view all the time. It is impermanent. Jhaana is not assocoated with wrong view. If think that wrong view arises with jhaana then all jhaana will have to be akusala. In contrary, all jhaanas including ruupa jhaanas and aruupa jhaanas will be akusala. The Buddha did not preach jhaanas are akusala and jhaanas are associated with wrong view. Attainment of sotaapatti magga is not the end. The Buddha did not congratulate those who were not arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jhaana can be attain even in sunna kappas. Bodisatta deserted > > Aa.laara kaalaama and Udaka Raamaputta (7th jhaana and 8th jhaana > > owner) because there is no essence of dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > > So, does the understanding related to samatha / jhana help to > > understand the Buddha's Dhamma? > > === > > --------------------------------- > > Htoo: Have answered above. (Sorry if I wrongly trim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Can you go into more details regarding the relationship between the understanding which sees the harm in sensuous attachment and one which sees the danger in ignorance (of the Four Noble Truths)? I believe in fact, that the inclination to take attainments related to Jhana for "self", is much more likely, than any willingness to hear the Buddha's teachings and therefore understanding Jhana as conditioned and non-self. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. This is a point that Mahasi Sayadaw did not applause trying to have jhaanas. Instead he explained dhammas and went delineation what written in tipi.taka. Samaadhi are many. As you said there may be those may incline to 'self' especially for who have jhaana. But jhaanas themselves do not have any wrong view. Arising of wrong view might occur after they exit from jhaana. But when dhammas are studied and jhaanas are tried and attain then it will be more at ease than dry-insighters. Enter jhaanas, exit from jhaana and then contemplate on dhamma when in paccavekkha.na kha.na. Sammaa-samaadhi is one component of a.t.tha`ngika magga. It has to be included even before actual time of magga kha.na. Otherwise the Buddha would not say "paripuurenti". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > It is not so much a question of the one being more conducive for > higher attainments, but rather that those with particular > accumulations would be well suited to become monks. And with the > attainment of Arahat, it is impossible to live the life of a > householder. Indeed, the important landmark is not the higher > attainments, but the eradication of wrong > view and the attainment of Stream-Entry. > === > ------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha did not congratulate His disciples monks who was stuck just > in sotapanna. For lay people who are puthujana it is yes the important > landmark. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: That was a matter of being still with some defilements vs. complete eradication. Of course it is only at Arahata when the work is fully done. But the question here is what is the more important and difficult step, from a puthujjana to sotapatti or from sotapatti through sakadagami and anagami to arahatta? If that mountain of a rock which is the defilements of the puthujjana has worn away by gradual rubbing with cloth, the step between sotapatti till arahatta is like cutting a small piece of butter with a knife. You are actually expressing lack of confidence in the Noble Eightfold Path! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not true that you express lack of confidence. Your other words in above bay seem right and good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Example: Kujjuttaraa > The maid of Queen Saamaavatii stole money for buying flowers. She > bought with half money given by Q.Saamaavatii. Half the money was > stolen. This happened until Kujjuttaraa heard Dhamma directly from the Buddha. Here comes the landmark. On that particular day she bought flower with full money. So there are plenty of flower and it was more than usual. Queen asked "what happened Kujjuttaraa?". She explained the whole situation. > Queen thought "Ooop this is quite impossible. The dhamma she knew must be very very good so that she deserted her bad practice of stealing. I must asked her for". Kujjuttaraa did not preach immediately as she had > respect to the Buddha. So she had a nice bath and she was given a > higher seat to sit and higher ranked Queen sat at a lower place to > listen Dhamma. At the end of preaching by Kujjuttaraa Queen also > became sotapanna. > In Myanmar there were poor people working selling goods. Some insincere people sold fake goods, edible oil was mixed with cheaper oil, higher quality gasoline was also mixed with cheaper one. After > > listening to preaching by Sayadaw Javana (Myittarshin Shwe Pyi Thar) the behaviour changed. They no more do bad things even they do not have enough food. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I miss the point here. Can you explain further what you are trying to get across? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Permanent change in behavior may indicate there changes from original lineage. Kujjuttaraa was facing life-threatening condition. The Queen may had her kill. But she at the time of investigation by the Queen did not lie (ariya siila). When she last bought she did not steal any money any more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > > What connection is there between the understanding which sees danger in sense contacts and one which understands the present dhamma, be it kuslaa, akusala or avyakata, as conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta? ----------------------- > > Htoo: > > Mind is so fast. Mind comprises cittas. When it says 'mind' this > > seems 'mind is permanent one'. But citta is not in this matter. Citta just lasts a moment. In a blink or in a time when fingers are flicked > > there happens more than 1,000,000,000,000 cittas. Who see these cittas > > except Sammaasambuddha? Can you see? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Suk: Are you suggesting that the development of understanding and > > achieving vipassana involves coming to experience individual cittas? > > Does it matter how many cittas have arisen and fallen away when a > > nimitta of any nama or rupa is experienced by panna of some level? > > What the Buddha suggested to Bahiya and what is taught in the > > Satipatthana Sutta, is this about coming to see individual cittas? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Theoretical understanding is not own pa~n~naa. Theoretical > understanding is far from experiential understanding. > Why have you suddenly made this into a discussion between pariyatti vs. > patipatti? And should not all levels conform to each other such that > there is no conflict between a statement made by pariyatti level and one > made by patipatti or pattivedha? So why even point this out that what I > state is "theoretical understanding"? > > > > There were many ariyaa in Myanmar. Some were illiterate or > > Paa.li-pitaka illiterate. They just got instructions by Ledy Sayadaw > > (in his time)/ Kyaungpan Sayadaw (in his time)/ Moegok Sayadaw (in his > > time) and many other dhamma teachers-dhamma practitioners (Mahasi, Sai > > Inn Guu, Sunlun, Kannii, Maung Htaung, Myay Zin,Pa Auk, Shwe Kyin, > > Shwe Oo Daung Taung, Wai Bhuu, Mingun, Moe Hnyin, Khantii and many > > others). Lay people also in dhamma instructions. Example: Anaagaamii > > Saya Thet Kyi. He is grand-teacher of SN Goenka. U Ba Khin was a > > disciple of Saya Thet Kyi. SN Goenka is a disciple of U Ba Khin. U Ba > > Khin had many disciples in Asia, Europe, and America. All these people > > practice for experiential understanding. Today is time of Neyya (must > > practice). > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin: When asked what the factors to Sotapatti are, the Buddha said; Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. Sappuurisasa.mseva, saddhammasavana, yonisomanasikaara, dhammaanudhammapa.tipatiiyaa. All these four are right condition for arising of sotaapatti magga ~naa.na. 1. 1st sappuurisa + sa.mseva Sappuurisa here have to be sotapanna or sakadaagaa.m or anaagaa.m or arahats. Otherwise it would like the followers of the blind. Sa.m + sevana = rightly, well + association. Here to observe teacher, ask teacher, learn from teacher, take guidance from teacher. 2. saddhammasavana.m To listen (read) right dhamma. Message must be rightly passed on from teacher to disciple. 3. yonisomanasikaaro Right attention. Here it is not just sati, viriya but it is panna or understanding (what DSG always say) 4. dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa Dhamma + anu-dhamma + pa.tipatti + yaa Here pa.tipatti must be right one. Pa.ti is like hit, touch, hurt, reach, get to, arrive at, enter, come into existance. The practice is require to attain sotaapanna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And when asked what leads to Arahatta, the same four factors were cited. The tradition that you come from, jump straight to "practice" without giving due consideration to the other three factors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not jumping. Some had to go for 20 years, some 30 years, some 13 years and so on for learning. Here anaagaa.m Saya Thet Kyi had to go studying close by Ledi for about 12 to 13 years. Meditation Centres preach dhamma at appropriate time even before actual meditation. Whatever instructions were given after attainments they were checked with dhammas in tipitaka. Once a monk was flying in the sky in Myanmar. Many people saw with their own eyes (at that time there was no internet, no mobile). Many people followed that monk. Finally they met the monk. Many went offerings. That Sayadaw just replied he wanted to build a Ceti (pagoda). He had miracle things not magic one. After sometime he was investigated by vinaya-team and he admitted that he was just a puthujana. I include this that dhamma is dhamma and tipitaka is the reference. Instructions may differ from each other. This is because they do not have aasaanusaya ~naa.na. So they pass on according to their passage when they passed through. You may say 'wrong things, wrong ideas, not in tipitaka'. Examples are "Put attention at the top of scalp about a coin. Put attention at the centre of the heart, put attention at the centre of the body, put attention at the tip of the nose, put attention at the upper lip, put attention on the abdomen. This is not trying to delude, trying to possess self at all. I think just hearing, just reading, just understanding is not enough. You mentioned 4 factors. I think the first two factors have been already involved. The practice is for 3rd and 4th. There are examples in tipitakas, and also in a.t.thakathaa that some bhikkhus were good at tipitaka but still puthujana and they had to search for teacher even though they knew dhamma more than YOU. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Can a puthujjana practice correctly if there is no careful study of the Dhamma and pariyatti understanding from "long time hearing"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there is a good teacher YES. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The fact that even a lower Ariyan needs to associate with the wise and continue to listen to the Dhamma, and the fact that your tradition does not give due consideration to the need to listen carefully and develop pariyatti understanding is evidence of lack of appreciation of the depth of the Buddhadhamma. And this can only be because of wrong understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please read above bays. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And by the way, how do you know that these people were / are Ariyans? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For me, I learn dhamma and I see things clearly. There is no person and nothing to do with person. One goes without anyone not problem. But many ones go and call others hand in hand. Ledi assigned Saya They Kyi to help at least 6000 people. But Saya Thet Kyi helped more than 100,000. Among these 100,000 at least 6000 people might be beneficial (I mean became sotapanna and may be more than that). Ledi knew many things in advance. Ledi knew 'thought in the mind' of people but he did not show this(disciple accidentally found). Ledi said 6000. Because it was possible 6000 would be sotapanna. Meditators in Myanmar are calm, faces are clear, behavior are fine. Most people know advance thing. My grandfather did meditation. Be became blind when he was in his 70's. But he knew as if he could see. He even knew the time of his death in advance and evrything was arranged in advance. My grandmother also did meditation. She also knew things in advance. She also knew the time of her death in advance. She was calm. She also arrange funeral things in advance. My father said 'My mother did not cause any troble to anyone'. My grandmother died on the last day of Myanmar. According to custom the corpse has to be destroyed before sunrise of new-year-day. So there was no special time consuming things or wasting money things. And many meditators knew their time of death beforehand and they calmly passed away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I mean when I met a person with yellow robe I do not need to thing of whether he is genuine or fake or puthujana or sotapanna or sakadaagaa.m or anaagaa,m or arahat. As I see him is as I see. It is yellow robe and a sign of Buddha's disciple. But when I have to deal with that person I will assume him as a person. If I have a chance to talk together I might know how deeply he know dhamma and then I may feel confident that dhamma in him is dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Those people would be able to answer your questions whatever if > > dhamma-related but they will answer in simple way. But you may not be > > able to answer their questions if they raise. They changed and they > > left landmarks that they changed in their behavior (not just > > suppressed). And they could even passed on dhamma to next generations. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But you and the rest of the Burmese population understand their simple words don't you? And you have tried for so many years to pass on their understanding to us via your particular way of communication, but apparently that has not worked........ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :) I have many emails outside of this forum. I do not need to assess whether effective or not. I am not listening to clapping. Whether it works or not is not my concern. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I wonder if there is going to be a change of approach now, or what? > > > > > Dhammasa`nga.nii describes there are kusala, akusala, and abyaakata. > > > > > > > > 1. kusala (sinless, flawless,errorless) > > > > 2. akusala(sinful) > > > > 3. abyaakata (neither kusala nor akusala_abyaakato). > > > > > > > > Kusala and akusala only arise while in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas > > > also arise in javana matter. Kiriyaa cittas are abyaakata. > > > > > > > > Vipaaka cittas are also abyaakata. > > > > > > > > Can you see patisandhi cittas? > > > > Can you see cuti cittas? > > > > Can you see bhava`nga cittas? > > ---------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: > > > > And your point for asking this kind of question is? Let me guess. > > It is to justify the practice of being mindful of postures and > > conventional activities....? > > -------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Pupils of Mahasi Sayadaw could experience bhava`ngacittas even though > > not directly. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I see. But your "practice" comes across to me, as miccha patipatti, and you want to convince me that you have experienced (although indirectly) bhavanga cittas and be impressed? Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not trying for impression. I did not say I see bhava`nga cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131760 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:07 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > Thomas: Dear Htoo, and All, > --- "htoonaing@" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > According to Dhammacakkappavattana sutta.m four noble truths... > then the Buddha started the speech on " ANATTA ". ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas: T: It seems that the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta.m does not include the teaching of this insight: seeing (passati) directly body and mind phenomena `dhammas' (such as the five aggregates) as anicca, dukkha, anatta (i.e.,the connection between anicca, dukkha, anatta)? Regards, Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Five aggregates come in next sutta.m "Anattalakkha.na sutta.m". It was preached 5 days after Kondanna became sotapanna. Anatta was taught to sotapanna. Ruupa.m nicca.m vaa anicca.m? Anicca.m Bhante! First anicca was taught. Next dukkha was taught. Then lastly anatta was taught. First ruupa then vedanaa then sa~n~naa, then sa`nkhaara and finally vi~n~naa.naa. Five aggregates (pancakkhandhaa) and anicca, dukkha, anatta were taught in next sutta.m of the Buddha second discourse. These two sutta.ms are formal record. In actual situation there would be more than this. With Metta, Htoo Naing #131761 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:26 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Hi Alberto > > Yes, again and again and..., because the truth is so subtle, even just in words, until they become upanissaya gocara, the object of intellectual understanding about realities. > In Poland Ajahn talked a lot about the three gocaras (also aarakkha and upanibhanda): on the 11th, pm-D, 20m; 12th, pm-A 12m; 13th, b/f, 4m; 17th, am-A, 9m. > I listened to the first of the recommended sections, will listen more. A bit confused because at first gocara sounded like the object for which there are accumulations to rise and then it sounded like the suitable object for us. So what is suitable is that for which there are accumulations? For example meditators are all so eager to use the breath as object of awareness, but there are not accumulations for that which is to say it is not suitable. Is it just first of the go areas that is a out that? The third is satipatthana.. One very impressive point from that section was that it is enough for us to know aramana paccaya, though of course there is subtle greed to know about all of them, so much wanting to know that which is beyond us. (In my opinion that is what Htoo's recent posts are full of.) Phil #131762 From: "philip" Date: Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:52 pm Subject: Re: Why samatha is not a parami? philofillet Hi again > Is it just first of the go areas that is a out that? The third is satipatthana.. Typo. "Is it just the first of the gocaras that is about that?" Phil #131763 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:00 am Subject: TA on gocara sprlrt (Than Acharn, Poland, 11th, pm-D, 22m) TA: What's the meaning of gocara? another word for arammana - object of citta, if you don't know the meaning you might think that it's different from just arammana; but why do we have such and such arammana, for example here, not there: because of the accumulations - the upanissaya, from hearing and thinking about what is better, or the best of life - not to have attachment, but to understand whatever appears; seeing the value of understanding reality no matter where and when, so one learns *with* understanding: one listen *with* understanding, one consider what one has heard *with* understanding; and it will accumulate more and more until it is the accumulation of wholesomeness: saddha, viriya, sati, samadhi, and pa~n~na; that's why it's not anyone's selection but it's by conditions that one has accumulation to hear this or to read that, it depends, because whenever citta arises there must be an object. So the right object, the best object, is the understanding from hearing, considering; until it can be protection from akusala - because of the understanding of the teachings; until vitakka is here, now, touching on whatever appears. Gocara is the object - which can be upanissaya (strong support) gocara, aarakkha (protection) gocara, and upanibandha (anchor) gocara. Sarah: <...>, and aarakkha gocara can protect because any kusala is protection from akusala. TA: from understanding that the wrong or the akusala is akusala, and the kusala, kusala: it will bring vipaka - no self, no one. And finally it will lead to understand reality right now. Upanissaya gocara is pariyatti, and aarakkha is kusala, and upanibandha is satipatthana. Is anybody thinking about the Buddha's virtues now? A moment of understanding the teachings is recollecting the virtues of the Buddha - when it arises one knows what is meant by Buddha-anussati, the recollection of the Buddha. #131764 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:00 am Subject: Re: TA on gocara sprlrt Hi Phil, Ph: A bit confused because at first gocara sounded like the object for which there are accumulations to rise and then it sounded like the suitable object for us. A: I've just posted the trascript. Even just hearing the true Dhamma doesn't happen by chance but by conditions, I think that when talking about upanissaya gocara (the object which is a strong suppport - for developing further understanding of realities) she was referring to our previous accumulations/parami of hearing the true Dhamma. Ph: So what is suitable is that for which there are accumulations? A: I think that the object, any object, for which there are accumulations is arammana-upanissaya; while upanissaya gocara I think refers only to the accumulation of the object which understanding at intellectual level has understood, pariyatti (hearing and considering the true Dhamma). Ph: For example meditators are all so eager to use the breath as object of awareness, A: In this case I think the (reality one takes for) breath (i.e. tangible object that touching touches) can only be condition as arammana-upanissaya for lobha-mula cittas - i.e. without sati. Ph: One very impressive point from that section was that it is enough for us to know aramana paccaya, though of course there is subtle greed to know about all of them, so much wanting to know that which is beyond us. A: I think that when with the greed there is also wrong understanding of the teachings it's even worst, to the point of turning the teachings upside down so that they looks more familiar to one's own views. Ph: Is it just first of the go areas <...> A: have you tried http://www.solveyourtech.com/how-to-turn-off-auto-correct-for-text-messaging-on-\ the-iphone-5/ :-) Alberto #131765 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: TA on gocara philofillet Hi Alberto Thanks for this, and transcript and the tip about disabling the spell chekc. It is all very subtle and not at all clear to me. I think I will listen a few times to your recommended passages before coming back to this thread. Hopefully Nina, Sarah and others with an interest in what Ajahn was talking about here will chip in as well. Phil > #131766 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:55 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, and All, T: Thank you very much for your reply. According to the SN suttas, one knows (jaanaati) and sees (passati) things as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) in both the four truths and anicca-dukkha-anatta are principal requirement for the ending of the influxes (aasavaana.m) or of suffering; it is not by not knowing, not by not seeing for the ending of the influxes (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 34, 50,52-3). > Htoo: Five aggregates come in next sutta.m "Anattalakkha.na sutta.m". It was preached 5 days after Kondanna became sotapanna. T: How do you know it was preached 5 days …? Is it from the sutta's commentary or just tradition? > Htoo: … the Buddha second discourse. These two sutta.ms are formal record. In actual situation there would be more than this. T: I visited Sarnath. I was told that in Sarnath the Dharmarajika Stupa marks the site for the Buddha's first discourse (the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta), and the Dhamekh Stupa marks the site for the Buddha's second discourse (the Anattalakkhana Sutta). But I was also told just the opposite story: the Dharmarajika Stupa is the site for the Buddha's second discourse, and the Dhamekh Stupa is the site for the first discourse. Do you know which information is correct? Regards, Thomas #131767 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:51 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara philofillet Hi again Alberto, all Sometimes one (realities) hears (hear) a teaching and it just sinks in, at other times there are just words flowing by with no comprehension, no attention, no appreciation. Is the former case a processes or processes where accumulations are suitable for attention/comprehension/appreciation, and therefore the teaching that us the object of attention-comprehension/appreciation is gocara? And the gocara that means protection (the second gocara) because at that moment the citta is turned towards the Dhamma, and thus there is protection? And the third gocara, which is satipatthana, so there is a deeper degree of panna than when there is just listening to a teaching by which there is gocara as protection. Of course satipatthana is the best protection, so what is the difference between second and third gocara. (Those questions/comments might be gibberish) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Alberto > > Thanks for this, and transcript and the tip about disabling the spell chekc. > > It is all very subtle and not at all clear to me. I think I will listen a few times to your recommended passages before coming back to this thread. > > Hopefully Nina, Sarah and others with an interest in what Ajahn was talking about here will chip in as well. > > Phil > > > > > > #131768 From: sprlrt@... Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:52 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara sprlrt Hi Phil, As Ajahn says there can be understanding, even intellectually, only of what appears now, by conditions, like hearing which hears sound, these are realities, and they're gone, and after that flash there must be thinking, another reality, and they can arise only by conditions, whatever sound hearing hears or whatever thought thinking thinks. I think that that reality (and others also, like visible object while reading Sutta or Abhidhamma) can be a strong support for pariyatti, it can also be a protection for all kind of kusala cittas, and an anchor for satipatthana - when one begins to understand one reality at a time, by its own distinct characteristic. Alberto > Ph: Sometimes one (realities) hears (hear) a teaching and just sinks in, at other times there are just words flowing by with no comprehension, no attention, no appreciation. Is the former case a processes or processes where accumulations are suitable for attention/comprehension/appreciation, and therefore the teaching that us the object of attention-comprehension/appreciation is gocara? And the gocara that means protection (the second gocara) because at that moment the citta is turned towards the Dhamma, and thus there is protection? And the third gocara, which is satipatthana, so there is a deeper degree of panna than when there is just listening to a teaching by which there is gocara as protection. Of course satipatthana is the best protection, so what is the difference between second and third gocara. #131769 From: "philip" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:16 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara philofillet Hi Alberto I always remover what Ajahn said to Lukas at the end of the Poland trip, visible object, visible object. Gradually, now and then, just beginning to understand nama which must know an object and visible object or sound etc then already thinking. Is it worth wondering what it means or how it can be that there is visible object that is Dhamma text and visible object that is white wall and sound that is words of wise Dhamma friend etc and sound that is useless? How can that be? Is sound that is voice of Dhamma friend vipaka of kusala kamma? That is probably true, but just thinking. So back to seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, realities arising and falling away in a flash and then thinking, the reality that rules our lives. Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sprlrt@... wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > As Ajahn says there can be understanding, even intellectually, only of what appears now, by conditions, like hearing which hears sound, these are realities, and they're gone, and after that flash there must be thinking, another reality, and they can arise only by conditions, whatever sound hearing hears or whatever thought thinking thinks. > I think that that reality (and others also, like visible object while reading Sutta or Abhidhamma) can be a strong support for pariyatti, it can also be a protection for all kind of kusala cittas, and an anchor for satipatthana - when one begins to understand one reality at a time, by its own distinct characteristic. > > Alberto > > > > Ph: Sometimes one (realities) hears (hear) a teaching and just sinks in, at > other times there are just words flowing by with no comprehension, no attention, > no appreciation. Is the former case a processes or processes where accumulations > are suitable for attention/comprehension/appreciation, and therefore the > teaching that us the object of attention-comprehension/appreciation is gocara? > And the gocara that means protection (the second gocara) because at that moment > the citta is turned towards the Dhamma, > and thus there is protection? > > And the third gocara, which is satipatthana, so there is a deeper degree of > panna than when there is just listening to a teaching by which there is gocara > as protection. Of course satipatthana is the best protection, so what is the > difference between second and third gocara. > #131770 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:40 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) htoonaing... Thomas: Dear Htoo, and All, T: Thank you very much for your reply. According to the SN suttas, one knows (jaanaati) and sees (passati) things as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) in both the four truths and anicca-dukkha-anatta are principal requirement for the ending of the influxes (aasavaana.m) or of suffering; it is not by not knowing, not by not seeing for the ending of the influxes (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 34, 50,52-3). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a true statement. When reality is seen, known, realized reality is directly seen. When this seeing happens again and again the characterisitcs of that reality is also seen. Characteristics may be lakkha.na (signs), may be rasa (functions), may be paccuppa.t.thaana (manifestations), or sometimes pada.t.thaana (nearest causes). This is very first step. When next time reality is seen and this happens again and again there arises seeing or realizing that reality is a sa`nkhata dhamma (conditioned dhammas_when appropriate causes are there it arises). This is seeing on sa`nkhata lakkha.na. When next time reality is seen and this happens again and again then there arises seeing or realizing that this reality has the signs of impermanance( anicca ), dukkha, self-free (anatta). This is seeing or realizing on saama~n~na lakkha.na. In this there are 3 lakkha.nas namely 1. sabhaava lakkha.na (natural or own signs) 2. sa`nkhata lakkha.na (conditioned signs) 3. saama~n~na lakkha.na (general signs) Even one(realities) sees these three signs this is still in the early stage of vipassanaa. When the first is seen one realizes and can be said naamaruupapariccheda or naamaruupavavatthaana. As own signs are seen the distinction between naama and ruupa already happens. The second signs arise and this indicates that only when causes of reality is there the reality arises. Paccaya or causes are provided (pariggahatiiti pariggaho). Even at this stage it is still not yet true or genuine vipassanaa. These two ~naana seems clearing of the forest and approaching the foot of the moutain. That is just ready to climb up to vipassanaa. When general signs are seen then this is very first step to reach vipassanaa state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Five aggregates come in next sutta.m "Anattalakkha.na sutta.m". It was preached 5 days after Kondanna became sotapanna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- T: How do you know it was preached 5 days …? Is it from the sutta's commentary or just tradition? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The first discourse is landmark of "Saasanaa" or teachings of the Buddha. It is the fourth month fullmoon day. Kondanna became sotapanna on that day. It is said the five attained sotapanna-ship one after another in serial fashion namely 1. Kondanna 2. Baddiya 3. Vappa 4. Mahaanaama 5. Assaji So it is the fifth day or it is 4th waningmoon day. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: … the Buddha second discourse. These two sutta.ms are formal record. In actual situation there would be more than this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas: T: I visited Sarnath. I was told that in Sarnath the Dharmarajika Stupa marks the site for the Buddha's first discourse (the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta), and the Dhamekh Stupa marks the site for the Buddha's second discourse (the Anattalakkhana Sutta). But I was also told just the opposite story: the Dharmarajika Stupa is the site for the Buddha's second discourse, and the Dhamekh Stupa is the site for the first discourse. Do you know which information is correct? Regards, Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know. This is Archeological things. The Buddha as Bodhisatta was born in Kapilavatthu place. Renounced and did dukkara cariya (the practice hard to practice) in Uruvela vana (forest). After attainment He moved to Migadaa vana (forest) where there were pancavaggii. Two place may not be too far. How far are they each other (stupas)? With Metta, Htoo Naing #131771 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sukin (et al) tony.humphreys TH: I would point out that 'mind' too is a concept as is Shunyata/Emptiness. Emptiness too is 'empty' - See Heart Sutra. Sukin: This is philosophical nonsense. If nothing else, this "concept" itself is the result of the function a particular set of mental realities, each with different characteristics, all very real and without which, you and I wouldn't be communicating to each other. And if there were no physical realities "outside of the mind" rising and falling away by conditions, I wouldn't be able to type this message on my computer and you wouldn't be reading it on yours. Philophocal Nonsense. What you mean is you don't understand! I detect a decided 'blind spot' in terms of debating with my Theravadin friends on this point. Its clear I lack the means to clarify the point any further. To me its utterly obvious and equally water tight. I am happy for you to continue with your belief. I am happy for me to continue with my experience. Metta #131772 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:18 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (4) tony.humphreys S: Because, with respect, I don't think you're beginning to understand what we're saying. The irony is that I feel exactly the same. I just don't think you 'get it'. With respect it feels like I am trying to point to the sky but you're refusing to look up. I can't help any further. S: Heat is a reality, not "an appearance to mind". Cooker is a concept which is not conditioned or dependent. It is just an idea thought about. Sarah, just because you call heat a 'reality' doesn't change anything. You're not offering any logic as to why heat is different. How can you say a 'cooker' isn't dependent??? This completely flies in the face of all logic both Buddhist and otherwise. It is thoroughly and completely dependent upon its aggregate parts, as well as dependent on whoever made it...ad nauseaum! Even if you're talking specifically about the concept of a cooker....upon what does the concept depend...? It depends upon the appearance to mind of the transitory collection of parts that create the appearance of an inherently existing cooker (illusion). So again, even the concept is a dependent related phenomena. Are you really asking me to believe that things exist outside of experience??? If so I will bow out of these debates as I have nothing else to offer. Metta _/|\_ #131773 From: "Tony H" Date: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:27 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) tony.humphreys S: Sorry, Tony..... but here we don't look to the Heart Sutra or Mahayana texts:-) So better to stick to your own words, your own understanding and if you want to support it, quote from Theravada texts which we can discuss. That's worrying! Many of the 'Mahayana' texts successfully refute many of the conclusions you have arrived at. But I respect your choice to not look there. Tony... #131774 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sukin (et al) sukinderpal > TH: I would point out that 'mind' too is a concept as is > Shunyata/Emptiness. Emptiness too is 'empty' - See Heart Sutra. > > Sukin: This is philosophical nonsense. If nothing else, this "concept" > itself is the result of the function a particular set of mental > realities, each with different characteristics, all very real and > without which, you and I wouldn't be communicating to each other. And > if there were no physical realities "outside of the mind" rising and > falling away by conditions, I wouldn't be able to type this message on > my computer and you wouldn't be reading it on yours. > > Philophocal Nonsense. What you mean is you don't understand! > > I detect a decided 'blind spot' in terms of debating with my > Theravadin friends on this point. > > Its clear I lack the means to clarify the point any further. To me its > utterly obvious and equally water tight. > > I am happy for you to continue with your belief. > > I am happy for me to continue with my experience. > Suk: You mean emptiness is empty for emptiness to empty with emptiness emptiness. #131775 From: sprlrt@... Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:56 am Subject: Re: TA on gocara sprlrt Hi Phil, Ph: I always remover what Ajahn said to Lukas at the end of the Poland trip, visible object, visible object. Gradually, now and then, just beginning to understand nama which must know an object and visible object or sound etc then already thinking. A: That's right, the natural and only way, and the most difficult too, that's why khanti it's a parami, and it's needed. And shortcuts just pile up more bricks on the already thick wall, or another layer to an already tough shell. Ph: Is it worth wondering what it means or how it can be that there is visible object that is Dhamma text and visible object that is white wall and sound that is words of wise Dhamma friend etc and sound that is useless? How can that be? A: Visible object is one reality with its single and unique characteristic, like for each of all others nama or rupa dhammas, like heat, it can be of different degrees, but whatever these are their characteristic is one and the same, which nobody can change or make it up (not even a Buddha), whether one knows its characteristic or not. The characteristic of visible object is that which impinge or comes into contact with eye-base, that which only seeing can experience (i.e. hearing can't experience visible object), by the time one recognizes a word on a printed on a page, any word, seeing's already gone. Sa~n~na arising with later cittas condition the concept of word or wall or whatever. Ph: Is sound that is voice of Dhamma friend vipaka of kusala kamma? That is probably true, but just thinking. A: I think so too, and I think it's a bit of a pity it's a self that experience the result of past kusala kamma, (where past includes anything from a split second ago back to beginning of samsara, which is unfathomable), since all the parami one has accumulated could have anyone but oneself as recipient. This is a point that Ajahn has stressed several times, like when saying how little time she keeps for herself, and in the commentary to the Cariya pitaka, A treatise on the parami, trans. BB: Alberto Ph: So back to seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, realities arising and falling away in a flash and then thinking, the reality that rules our lives. #131776 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:23 am Subject: Vipassanaa_019 (DT 906 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Noble Eight-fold Path(NEP) or a.t.tha`ngika-magga is preached by the Buddha in his very first discourse called dhamma-cakka-ppavattana sutta.m. Anatta was not preached in that very first discourse yet. Before this discourse there were also Buddha's words. The Buddha became enlightened on the full-moon day of the fourth month. The Buddha then went into phala-samaapatti for 49 days called Satta-sattaaha. At the end of 49 days there came two brothers named Tapussa and Ballika. The Buddha had talks with these two brothers and they were given upaasakaa-hood after they promised "dvevaacika sara.nagamana" ,which include taking refuge in the Buddha and the Dhamma. This had to happen because at that time there were still no disciples yet and there was no sa.mgha. So they were the first upaasakaas and the only people who just had double-gems instead of triple-gems. The Buddha then gave them some hair from His head after touching with the right hand for future homage for them while they lived far away from where the Buddha lived. After they left, the Budhha considered whether not to preach dhamma as what he discovered was so subtle, so deep, so complex, so complicated. At that time a Brahma came to Him and asked to preach dhamma as there were many to be liberated. Then the first thought to Aa.laara Kaalaama and the second thought to Udaka Raamaputta arised and He was informed that both passed away before The Buddha attained Buddha-hood. "They were gone in vain, they were gone in vain!". The third thought was to the group of five called pancavaggii. They renounced even when Bodhisatta went off for searching amata-dhamma or nibbaana. They were in migadaa vana (deer park) and they had been with Bodhisatta for about six years after which they left the Bodhisatta as He resume food for growing of His body. The Buddha thought that the first discourse must be given to them as they were ripen. Then He considered how ancient Buddhas went to the first disciples for the first discourse. And He found that They all flied through the sky with jhaana. But in His case, He considered to go on foot as that might be more beneficial than flying in the sky. This is because if He went on foot He would meet a man called Upaka who was a paribbaajaka (renounced man). They met on the way. Upaka looked at the Buddha. But he did not know that the Buddha was a genuine Buddha. Even when the Buddha admitted that He was a Buddha, Upaka said `so it be, so it be!'. But Upaka well remembered that the Buddha name was "Ananta Jina". Upaka was taken as refuge by a hunter, who had a beautiful daughter called "Caapaa". Later Upaka was married to Caapaa. However, they divorced when they got a baby. Caapaa insulted Upaka (vain-man, ex-ascetic) and Upaka remembered "Ananta Jina". So he left Caapaa and searched Ananta Jina at Jetavana Monastry in Saavatthi. After hearing the Buddha teaching he became an anaagaamii. Caapaa again followed him and came to know this event and she also became a bhikkhunii and later became an arahat. For this benefit the Buddha went on foot when he left the place of enlightenment. When met with the Buddha those five ascetics forgot their promise of not to welcome, not to give place to sit, not to give water for washing feet and so on. They did the opposite. When the Buddha admitted Himself is a Sammaa-sambuddha they did not believe. The Buddha, after having said three time that He was Buddha reminded them saying " Have I ever admitted I become a Buddha?". The five then thought over again and they accepted that Siddhattha Gotama never said lie and they started to listen what the Buddha taught. The Buddha gave them the first discourse called `dhammacakkappavattana sutta.m'. The whole discourse was on truth and it is called four noble truths or the truths realized by ariyaas namely 1. Dukkha-ariya-saccaa 2. Dukkha-samudaya-ariya-saccaa 3. Dukkha-nirodha-ariya-saccaa and 4. Dukkha-nirodha-pa.tipadaa-gaaminii-ariya saccaa. Simply they are also called dukkha saccaa, samudaya saccaa, nirodha saccaa, and magga saccaa. Dukkha saccaa is the noble truth of sufferings, samudaya saccaa is the noble truth of the cause of sufferings, nirodha saccaa is the noble truth of the cessation of sufferings, and magga saccaa is the noble truth of the path leading to cessation of sufferings. This last truth or magga saccaa or the noble truth of the path leading to the cessation of suffering is the basic for all advanced things in dhamma. So the Buddha first preached this discourse on four noble truths. There was no term like "ANATTA" in this discourse. Because of this discourse Ko.n.da~n~na became a sotapanna and the Buddha announced that Kondanna became a sotapanna. "A~n~naasi Ko.n.da~n~no! A~n~naasi Ko.n.da~n~no!". There were 5 ascetics or the group of five monks namely Kondanna, Baddiya, Vappa, Mahaanaama, and Assaji. They became sotapanna one after another on five successive days. Except Kondanna all four others had to do practice with the guidance from the Buddha. The Buddha performed as a close teacher for them while they did the practice. On the 1st waningmoon day Kondanna and another monk went alms round while two other monks were taught by the Buddha about dhamma. On that day Baddiya, next day Vappa, next day Mahaanaama and next day Assaji, who was the teacher of `Upatissa Saariputta' the right wing disciple of the Buddha, finally became a sotapanna. Saariputta always slept with his head toward the direction wherever Assaji dwelled not to the Buddha. In Noble Eight-fold Path or NEP the Buddha described `sammaa-di.t.thi' first. Sammaa-di.t.thi comes first and this is followed by sammaa-sa`nkappa. These two parts of the path are called pa~n~naa-magga`ngas. Without these two part the path cannot be true path or genuine path. If not genuine it may lead to wrong path. The middle three parts namely sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanta, and sammaa-aajiiva are called siila-magga`ngas. The last three parts of the path namely sammaa-vaayaama, sammaa-sati and sammaa-samaadhi are called samaadhi magga`ngas. Whoever want to follow the path, they must follow the genuine path which is led by sammaa-di.t.thi. There are 7 purifications or satta visuddhis. Siila-visuddhi or morality-purification must be led by sammaa-ditthi. Citta-visuddhi or mind-purification must also be led by sammaa-ditthi. Di.t.thi-visuddhi or view-purification must also be led by sammaa-di.t.thi. Ka`nkhaavitara.na-visuddhi or suspicion-purification must also be led by sammaa-di.t.thi. Maggaamagga~naa.nadassana-visuddhi or true-path-purification must also be led by sammaa-di.t.thi. Pa.tipadaa~naa.nadassana-visuddhi or practice-purification must also be led by sammaa-di.t.thi. Finally ~naa.nadassana-visuddhi or wisdom-purification must also be led by sammaa-di.t.thi. In vipassanaa matter these purifications should have been studied beforehand. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ( V-019 DT-906 ) #131777 From: "azita" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:58 am Subject: Re: The second question gazita2002 Hallo Phil > > I'd like to answer these questions from what I understand. > > > > "What is seeing?' Seeing is a citta which experiences visible object only. > > > > "Is there seeing now" yes, because visible object appears. > > > > "Does seeing appear?" the citta which sees? I have to answer no, because there is certainly no precise knowing of that particular citta. > > > > "is there understanding of seeing that appears now?" theoretical understanding maybe, but no precise understanding of the reality of seeing now. > > Ph: I think your answer sound correct. I just wonder about "precise understanding." Does there have to be precise understanding for us to say that a dhamma appears? Az: appears to what? to citta and to which citta? can we know which dhamma appears to which citta without precise/well developed wisdom/understanding? e.g. I'm staring out the window and there is visible object/color, there's no doubt about that, but its very mixed up with thinking about what is seen. To know a moment of just seeing - well, thats very precise wouldn't you agree? > You may remember that I got and I guess still am attached to a portion of a discussion in which Ajahn said that rupa appears more often than n a m a. Sarah disputed that sportily and Ajahn said well can we say n a m a is more subtle? And Sarah feistily fought that as well! And some years later when it was brought up at JK when I was there Ajahn agrees with Sarah. No rules. But I still feel that rupa appears more often and is less subtle. No rules about trying to see rupa more, butcI just have a bunch that it is a nature of rupa to appear more than mama. Which brings us back to what "appears" means. Becomes an object if awareness? Is that awareness precise? az: I agree, no rules, and I would suggest that thinking 'covers up' a lot of realities that appear at the sense doors. > > * Nina, can we ask you? "Before enlightenment can be attained, mahaa- kusala citta which is accompanied by panna has to consider and investigate the characteristics of all kinds of naama and rupa over and over again, life after life. In this way, understanding of realities can grow." - from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Ch 30 - The stages of Vipassana. > > > > SPD is the greatest book in the history of the universe except for Bill James' Baseball Abstract. > az: yay, this made me laugh, and the worse one is Teach Yourself Visually MacBook Air, I haven't learnt a thing, maybe even more confused. patience, courage and good cheer azita #131778 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:39 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > J: Yes, the set of conditions that conditions the arising of the kusala moment is a completely different set of conditions to that which conditions the arising of the akusala moment. > > > > Akusala moments are rooted in attachment, aversion and/or ignorance, while kusala moments are rooted in one or more of the kusala roots (i.e., the opposites of the 3 akusala roots). > > RE: Do we know how it happens that one set of conditions that are akusala are suddenly replaced in the next moment with a whole different set that are kusala, or is that one of the great mysteries of conditionality? > =============== J: It can be verified by one's own experience that kusala and akusala moments arise intermingled, in much the same way as there can be several 'layers' of thought about different things, or stories, going on at the same time. The 'mechanics' of it need not concern us. But I don't think of it as one set of conditions 'replacing' another, since both sets of conditions are having effect (but at different moments). Consider the case of sense-door experiences (which are vipaka cittas) and the thinking about previous sense-door experiences (which are kusala or akusala cittas) arsing intermingled all the time. Completely different sets of conditions. > =============== > RE: I mean, conditions are things that have come before which condition what comes next. They don't just come out of nowhere do they? How do all these different sets suddenly pop up to cause completely different sorts of moments? > =============== J: In the dhamma sense, the term 'condition/ed' has a particular meaning. Not all conditions 'come before' that which is conditioned; some co-arise with, or even arise after, the conditioned dhamma. Jon #131779 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:13 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > > > J: You say, "I have been waiting for years for [a quote from the texts] from you or anyone that says that meditation is bad for the path. Still haven't seen a single quote! Not one!" > > > > There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and never will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) > > RE: Well there is certainly no scriptural basis for declaring somethign to be true for which there is no evidence. Left with no direct statement about meditation, we are left with the knowledge that every Buddhist monk at the time of the Buddha and during every generation following, up to the present day, were all meditators, almost without exception. > =============== J: I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to infer an aspect of the teachings from a description in the suttas of how some monks spent their time. We have the Buddha's actual words as spoken, and surely it is these -- as elaborated upon by the commentaries -- that are the best source of his message. In sutta after sutta, we are told how people hearing a teaching given by the Buddha became enlightened there and then, sometimes on a first meeting. This suggests that it was their understanding of the content of the talk, rather than the following of a practice, that was the basis for their enlightenment. > =============== > RE: So it strains credulity to the breaking point to claim that a nonexistent tradition of non-meditation is "Orthodox Buddhism." That is like saying that Mormonism is Orthodox Christianity. > =============== J: There is, of course, no tradition of non-meditation, and I've never suggested there is. What I've said is that orthodox Buddhism does not teach that the development of awareness/insight is dependent on time, place, posture or the like. =============== > RE: It's absolutely the case that the vast majority of Buddhists all see meditation as a seminal part of the Buddhist practice, because it is an unbroken practice taught, practiced and extolled by the Buddha. There were very few things that the Buddha had to recommend as being against the tide of ignorance and defilements. Among those few things was jhana, which he called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now," and always spoke of in complimentary terms. Jhana was recommended and practice not as a leftover from other traditions, but as the practice of the Buddha himself - the platform for his enlightenment, and the launching pad for his Parinibbana. > =============== J: I agree that the Buddha extolled the development of jhana (by those developing the path), but he did not extol anything he called 'meditation'. > =============== > RE: From the cradle of his enlightenment to the grave of his Parinibbana, his constant companion was his meditative attainments in mindfulness and jhana, the two poles of the monks' sitting practice. And so it was for virtually every monk during his life and ever since. > =============== J: The Buddha taught about the attainments of mindfulness and jhana, but he never called them 'meditative' attainments, and nor did he ever speak of a 'sitting' practice. These are latter day glosses on the teaching. > =============== > RE: If there is anything truly Orthodox in Buddhism it is meditation practice. > > The idea that there is no term for meditation is also a strain to credulity. Specific practices are talked about in conjunction with bhavana and the enlightenment factors. The Buddha gives a guarantee that if mindfulness is practiced correctly for a given period of time, it will lead to satipatthana and enlightenment. Whether the word is jhana, mindfulness, practice or development, they are brought together in sitting practice. When you sit and focus on breath or arising phenomenal experience in order to develop mindfulness or jhana, as prescribed by the Buddha in a number of suttas, that is meditation practice in Buddhism. > =============== J: You are using a coined term ("meditation practice") to describe a specific -- and rather limited -- part of the teachings. And in any event, it's not correct to say that sitting and focussing on breath was prescribed as a way of developing mindfulness -- what we find in the suttas is the teaching of the development of mindfulness for those who are already skilled in anapanasati. > =============== > > J: You are here using the term "meditation" to refer to certain things that are mentioned in the texts although not described as such. > > RE: The word that is used to label such practices are not as important as the practice itself. This seems like an amazingly academic debate if it is not about the substance of these practices that are clearly delineated in detail, and instead about whether they had a singular name or not as we refer to them today and have for centuries. > =============== J: I don't consider it an academic debate at all. The problem is that every time I try to direct our conversation to something other than meditation, you bring it back there! Jon #131780 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:29 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Take any post by Nina, Sarah or any of several others and you'll find that what's being discussed is awareness and the conditions for its arising. > > RE: Perhaps. In that sense everything we discuss is about awareness, what it is, and what causes it to arise, but it is handled from many different angles and the areas focused on can vary quite a bit too. In addition, there are different aspects of awareness and understanding such as plain old sati, satipatthana, panna/vipassana, sampajanna. I don't begin to understand the fine distinctions of all of them, 10 years or not. > =============== J: They are all talking about the same thing: awareness or understanding of the way things really are (in moment-to-moment terms, citta accompanied by sati and panna, having a dhamma as its object). > =============== > RE: What I was suggesting is that there might be some specifically detailed material about the conditions for awareness that would get a little closer to understanding how different forms of kusala impact the arising of awareness and development of understanding. I don't think it's clear, since there are many questions about the role of other parts of the teachings other than direct understanding itself. > =============== J: Your quest for a detailed understanding of 'how different forms of kusala impact the arising of awareness and development of understanding' is likely to be a fruitless one, because it's based on a supposition that I suspect may not be a correct one. Are you not interested in simply the conditions for the development of awareness/insight > =============== > > > RE: Ready to go! Hope I don't regret such a commitment as worldly activities are constantly assaulting me... > > > =============== > > > > J: Worldly activities and obligations are not the problem; once one realises what's truly unique and significant about the Buddha's teaching, certain other areas of interest become less attractive. > > RE: Like paying the mortgage? I wouldn't exactly call what I have in mind areas of interest. Responsibilities are just there for householders, as you know, and can be incessant at times. > =============== J: As I understand the teachings, the development of the path does not impinge of one's responsibilities as a householder; in fact, in my experience, the opposite is the case: it makes them easier to shoulder. Jon #131781 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:00 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, > ..."htoonaing@..." wrote: > ... > Thomas: > > Dear Htoo, and All, > > T: Thank you very much for your reply. > > According to the SN suttas, one knows (jaanaati) and sees (passati) things as they really are (yathaabhuuta.m) in both the four truths and anicca-dukkha-anatta are principal requirement for the ending of the influxes (aasavaana.m) or of suffering; it is not by not knowing, not by not seeing for the ending of the influxes (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 34, 50,52-3). > ---------------- > Htoo: > > This is a true statement. ... -------------- Thomas: Thank you very much for your reply and posting about the very important the Buddha's first and second discourses, and the practice of jaanaati (knowing) and passati (seeing). -------------- > Thomas: I visited Sarnath. I was told that in Sarnath the Dharmarajika Stupa marks the site for the Buddha's first discourse (the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta), and the Dhamekh Stupa marks the site for the Buddha's second discourse (the Anattalakkhana Sutta). But I was also told just the opposite story: the Dharmarajika Stupa is the site for the Buddha's second discourse, and the Dhamekh Stupa is the site for the first discourse. Do you know which information is correct? … --------------- > Htoo: I do not know. This is Archeological things. The Buddha as Bodhisatta was born in Kapilavatthu place. Renounced and did dukkara cariya (the practice hard to practice) in Uruvela vana (forest). After attainment He moved to Migadaa vana (forest) where there were pancavaggii. Two place may not be too far. How far are they each other (stupas)? --------------- Thomas: The distance between Dharmarajika Stupa and Dhamekh Stupa is very short. On foot it is possibly less than five minutes. --------------- Regards, Thomas #131782 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:13 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) thomaslaw03 --- "Tony H" wrote: > ... > S: Sorry, Tony..... but here we don't look to the Heart Sutra or Mahayana texts:-) So better to stick to your own words, your own understanding and if you want to support it, quote from Theravada texts which we can discuss. > > That's worrying! Many of the 'Mahayana' texts successfully refute many of the conclusions you have arrived at. But I respect your choice to not look there. > > Tony... > About Pali texts relevant to the Heat Sutra, or to the middle way (empty of the two extremes), see SN 22.90 or SN 12.15(Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 60-66,192-199). The connection between not-self (anatta) and the middle way is clearly found in the Pali texts. Regards, Thomas #131783 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:16 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) thomaslaw03 Dear All, --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > --- "Tony H" wrote: > ... > S: Sorry, Tony..... but here we don't look to the Heart Sutra or Mahayana texts:-) So better to stick to your own words, your own understanding and if you want to support it, quote from Theravada texts which we can discuss. > > That's worrying! Many of the 'Mahayana' texts successfully refute many of the conclusions you have arrived at. But I respect your choice to not look there. > > Tony... > > > Thomas: About Pali texts relevant to the Heart Sutra, or to the middle way (empty of the two extremes), see SN 22.90 or SN 12.15(Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 60-66,192-199). The connection between not-self (anatta) and the middle way is clearly found in the Pali texts. > > Regards, > > Thomas ---------------- Also, the `emptiness' teachings indicated in the Heart Sutra are closely relevant to the middle way, meaning `empty (devoid) of the two extremes': the self-based view of existence and the self-based view of non-existence (Cf. also Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism, pp. 34-6). Thomas #131784 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:50 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (4) jonoabb Hi Tony I've been following these threads with interest. There's a comment in this post of yours to Sarah that I think goes to the nub of your position. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > > Are you really asking me to believe that things exist outside of experience??? > =============== J: It seems to be your position that the there is no possibility that anything could exist outside of experience (or, perhaps, no possibility that such existence could be known). Would you mind explaining the basis for this assumption/position. I think this could be a useful line of discussion. Jon #131785 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:42 pm Subject: Samaadhi htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Samaadhi sutta.m in khandha-sa.myutta.m of sa.mpayutta nikaaya says-: "Samaadhi.m, bhikkhave, bhaavetha! Samaahito, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Ki~nca yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati? 1. ruupassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca 2. vedanaaya samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca 3. sa~n~naaya samudaya~nca atta`ngama~nca 4. sa`nkhaaraana.m samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca 5. vi~n~naa.nassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca. (Numbers are not included here. They are put to highlight these are pa~ncakkhandhaa or five aggregates. In this sa.myutta as it is khandha-sa.myutta it is about five khandhaa.) With Metta, Htoo Naing #131786 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_018 (DT 905 ) htoonaing... > Htoo: I do not know. This is Archeological things. The Buddha as Bodhisatta was born in Kapilavatthu place. Renounced and did dukkara cariya (the practice hard to practice) in Uruvela vana (forest). After attainment He moved to Migadaa vana (forest) where there were pancavaggii. Two place may not be too far. How far are > they each other (stupas)? --------------- Thomas: The distance between Dharmarajika Stupa and Dhamekh Stupa is very short. On foot it is possibly less than five minutes. --------------- Regards, Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Thomas, thanks for your information. Less than five minutes is not far away. With regards, Htoo Naing #131787 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:17 pm Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) htoonaing... Dear Sarah and Thomas, I am not Mahayanist. Your discussion on view things is interesting (S & T). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas: Dear All, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... > S: Sorry, Tony..... but here we don't look to the Heart Sutra or Mahayana texts:-) So better to stick to your own words, your own understanding and if you want to support it, quote from Theravada texts which we can discuss. > > That's worrying! Many of the 'Mahayana' texts successfully refute many of the conclusions you have arrived at. But I respect your choice to not look there. > > Tony... > Thomas: About Pali texts relevant to the Heart Sutra, or to the middle way (empty of the two extremes), see SN 22.90 or SN 12.15(Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 60-66,192-199). The connection between not-self (anatta) and the middle way is clearly found in the Pali texts. > Regards, > Thomas ---------------- > Also, the `emptiness' teachings indicated in the Heart Sutra are closely relevant to the middle way, meaning `empty (devoid) of the two extremes': the self-based view of existence and the self-based view of non-existence (Cf. also Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism, pp. 34-6). > > Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I thinking 'Thomas is referring to sassata-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of existence" and to uccheda-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of non-existence. I do not know 'Choong Mun-keat' as I am not a Mahayanist. With regards, Htoo Naing #131788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:31 pm Subject: smiling about his kusala. nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, I listened many times to the first tape in Huahin, taken at the service for Ivan. T.A. said about the loss of her father and her thinking of him that she smiled when thinking of his kusala. Today is the date of my wedding day and I thought beforehand that it would be a sad occasion. But no, it is not, to my surprise. The day before I had a computer technicus over and remembered that Lodewijk was always so generous with extra tips and I mentioned to him that Lodewijk liked to give this always. I feel glad when remembering all Lodewijk's good qualities, and this gives me joy. Of course this is mixed with many moments with lobha but that always happens. So we can see how listening to the Dhamma helps. Nina. #131789 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:09 am Subject: Vipassanaa_020 (DT 907 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, NEP as can be seen in `Rolling Dhamma Wheel' have eight dhammas. They all are cetasikas. But not just them when path-consciousness arises. When parts are all in one, it becomes NEP and this path-consciousness is immediately followed by fruition-consciousness, which again arises along with NEP's cetasikas. NEP composes 8 path-factors and these can be compressed into three namely pa~n~naa , siila, and samaadhi in serial position. Panna-magga`nga comprises sammaa-di.t.thi and sammaa-sa`nkappa. Siila-magga`nga includes sammaa-vaacaa, sammaa-kammanta, and sammaa-aajiiva. Samaadhi-magga`ngas are sammaa-vaayama, sammaa-sati, and sammaa-samaadhi. Among these eight factors sammaa-di.t.thi comes first followed by sammaa-sa`nkappa. Or it can be said that panna-magganga comes first. Next is siila-magganga. And lastly samaadhi-magganga. As panna comes first the first thing to do is to understand theoretically on dhamma. This can be done by learning from all possible sources after screening out the facts those are unreasonable in comparison with tipitka original texts not translated texts. Panna in samma-ditthi is several if to say but true samma-ditthi arises at the time when path-consciousness arises or also fruition-consciousness arises. According to level there are several samma-ditthi. 1. kammassakata samma-ditthi 2. jhaana samma-ditthi 3. vipassana samma-ditthi 4. magga samma-ditthi 5. phala samma-ditthi 6. paccavekkhanaa samma-ditthi Kammassakata is a Paa.li word combining `kammassa' and `kata'. Kamma here is `to work' `to act' `to perform' `to do' `to exert' `to move'. Kammassa means `of kamma'. Karoti means `to do'. Kata means `done'. Kammassakata means `kamma arises from having done works'. This is very basic for all Buddhists. Without this there is no true Buddhist. As soon as this view arises all three dangerous and detrimental wrong views namely `ahetuka ditthi' or `the view of causeless', `akiriya ditthi' or `the view of actionless' and `natthika ditthi' or `the view of nothingness'. These three wrong views are the cause for long living in aviici-niraya ( a (no) + viici (interval or spacing). Even anantariya kamma can free a being from hell when kappa becomes destroyed but these three micchaa-di.t.thi committers have to stay for aeons and they have to transfer to another kappa while the present kappa is burning. Kammassakataa sammaa-ditthi is the first right-view to become a Buddhist. Jhaana-sammaa-ditthi is panna in jhaana-cittas. This is higher level than kammassakataa-sammaa-ditthi. Jhaanas have been discussed in Dhamma Threads posts. After this jhaana-sammaa-ditthi is vipassanaa-sammaa-ditthi. This is panna in vipassanaa ~naa.nas. Vipassana is something like magga. Magga is at top and vipassanaa is at the base and ladders up to the top (magga). Unlike magga vipassanaa is not always associated with siila-magga`ngas. Magga, phala, and paccavekkhana sammaa-ditthi are almost the same level. After having studied at theoretical level there is some understanding and some level of pannaa-magga`nga is there. Next comes siila-magga`nga. This is the case why seven-purifications or satta-visuddhi is started with `purification of morality' or `siila-visuddhi'. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ( V-020 DT-907 ) #131790 From: "Tony H" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:25 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (Joe/Sarah) tony.humphreys Hi Joe, J: I've been following these threads with interest. There's a comment in this post of yours to Sarah that I think goes to the nub of your position. It seems to be your position that the there is no possibility that anything could exist outside of experience (or, perhaps, no possibility that such existence could be known). Would you mind explaining the basis for this assumption/position. I think this could be a useful line of discussion. TH: I struggle to explain this in ways other than I already have numerous times in this forum. So two questions for you and Sarah :-) How can something exist without being an object of conciousness/expereince? If it is not an object of conciousness or being experienced how on earth does it exist and how would you know??? All anyone has to do who is a part of this debate with me is explain that. regards, Tony... #131791 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:44 am Subject: Re: Samaadhi nichiconn Dear Htoo, what is this samudaya~nca word? also, what is the -ssa on ruupa and vi~n~naa.na for? thanks, connie > Samaadhi sutta.m in khandha-sa.myutta.m of sa.mpayutta > nikaaya says-: > > "Samaadhi.m, bhikkhave, bhaavetha! Samaahito, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathaabhuuta.m > pajaanaati. Ki~nca yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati? > > 1. ruupassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > 2. vedanaaya samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > 3. sa~n~naaya samudaya~nca atta`ngama~nca > 4. sa`nkhaaraana.m samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > 5. vi~n~naa.nassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca. > > (Numbers are not included here. They are put to highlight these are > pa~ncakkhandhaa or five aggregates. In this sa.myutta as it is khandha-sa.myutta > it is about five khandhaa.) > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > #131792 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:46 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (Joe/Sarah) htoonaing... Dear Tony, You need to study material phenomena in line with Theravada Buddhism. Abhidhamma says there are ruupas. Ruupas in total with regard to their separate characteristics is 28. But like atom rupa does not exist as single. At least there are 8 ruupas exist together and they stay for a short time that is over 50,000,000,000th a blink. Regarding kalaapa or ruupa-aggregate there are aggregate outside of conciousness. They are utuja ruupa. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tony H" wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > > J: I've been following these threads with interest. There's a comment in this post of yours to Sarah that I think goes to the nub of your position. > > It seems to be your position that the there is no possibility that anything could exist outside of experience (or, perhaps, no possibility that such existence could be known). > > Would you mind explaining the basis for this assumption/position. I think this could be a useful line of discussion. > > TH: I struggle to explain this in ways other than I already have numerous times in this forum. So two questions for you and Sarah :-) > > How can something exist without being an object of conciousness/expereince? > > If it is not an object of conciousness or being experienced how on earth does it exist and how would you know??? > > All anyone has to do who is a part of this debate with me is explain that. > > regards, > > Tony... > #131793 From: "htoonaing@..." Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:06 am Subject: Re: Samaadhi htoonaing... Connie: Dear Htoo, what is this samudaya~nca word? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: samudaya.m ca attha`ngama.m ca Samudaya = sa.m + udaya (sam_well, udaya_arise) Samudayo (for subject_in grammar)) Samudaya.m (for object_grammar) attha`ngama.m = falling away ca = also, as well as, and so many uses (it is nipaata-pada in Paa.li grammar) "arising as well as falling away" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Connie: also, what is the -ssa on ruupa and vi~n~naa.na for? thanks, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: ruupa = matter/ material ruupa.m ( subject)__ ruupaani(subjects) ruupa.m (object)____ruupaani (objects) ruupena (by ruupa)__ruupehi/ruupebhi (by ruupaani) ruupassa( to ruupa)___ruupaana.m (to rupas or to ruupaani) ruupasmaa(from ruupa)__ruupehi/ruupebhi (from rupas) ruupassa (of rupa)__ruupaana.m (of rupas) ruupasmi.m(at rupa)__ruupesu (at rupas) The first row is singular number (eka vacana). The second row is pleural number (bahu vacana). Pathamaa_first, dutiyaa_second, tatiyaa_third, catutthii_fourth, pa~ncamii_fifth, cha.t.thii_sixth, sattamii_seventh vibhatti. Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa. ta + -ssa dha + -ssa WIth respect, Htoo Naing PS: Amara has better proficiency in Paa.li than me. > > Samaadhi sutta.m in khandha-sa.myutta.m of sa.mpayutta > > nikaaya says-: > > > > "Samaadhi.m, bhikkhave, bhaavetha! Samaahito, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathaabhuuta.m > > pajaanaati. Ki~nca yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati? > > > > 1. ruupassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > > 2. vedanaaya samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > > 3. sa~n~naaya samudaya~nca atta`ngama~nca > > 4. sa`nkhaaraana.m samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > > 5. vi~n~naa.nassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca. > > > > (Numbers are not included here. They are put to highlight these are > > pa~ncakkhandhaa or five aggregates. In this sa.myutta as it is khandha-sa.myutta > > it is about five khandhaa.) > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > #131794 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:04 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts truth_aerator Dear Jon, all,. >J There's a good reason why you've not seen such a quote, and >never >will: there's no equivalent of the term "meditation" in the Pali >texts, so no mention of it, either for or against.!! :-)) >>>> And neither "no-Self", and "no control". Buddha didn't spoke English. When we read about things that Buddha recommended to do, what RobE and others mean by meditation, is most certainly found there and recommended by the Buddha. Moreover, commentaries like VsM do teach intentional development of wisdom, etc. >J:In sutta after sutta, we are told how people hearing a teaching ?>given by the Buddha became enlightened there and then, sometimes on a >first meeting. This suggests that it was their understanding of the >content of the talk, rather than the following of a practice, that >was the basis for their enlightenment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And how many people did not become "even" sotapanna? :) Why not? Because not everybody is on "5 minutes till Arhat" stage. Not everyone is of the highest class to do such thing. If you became an Arhat decades ago, when you first heard Dhamma, - then, great for you. I am not that good. With best wishes, Alex #131795 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:21 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > ... > Thomas: About Pali texts relevant to the Heart Sutra, or to the middle way (empty of the two extremes), see SN 22.90 or SN 12.15(Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 60-66,192-199). The connection between not-self (anatta) and the middle way is clearly found in the Pali texts. > Also, 'the emptiness' teachings indicated in the Heart Sutra are closely relevant to the middle way, meaning `empty (devoid) of the two extremes': the self-based view of existence and the self-based view of non-existence (Cf. also Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism, pp. 34-6). > ----------- > Htoo: I thinking 'Thomas is referring to sassata-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of existence" and to uccheda-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of non-existence. ….. Thomas: Thank you very much for this reply. Yes, it can in meaning refer to the view (di.t.thi) of sassata (existence) and uccheda (non-existence). But if according to the above-mentioned suttas SN 22.90 or SN 12.15, the Pali term for existence is atthitaa, and for non-existence is natthitaa. The teaching is about the two extremes should be overcome, and the training of right view which is the wisdom called the middle [way] (majjhima)should be developed. As SN 12.15 sutta reports the following exchange between the Buddha and the monk Kaccaayana (See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 192-195): "Venerable Sir, it is said: "right view, right view" (sammaadi.t.thi). In what respect is it said "right view", Venerable Sir? [The Buddha replied:] This world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two [extremes] (dvaya-nissito): existence (atthitaa) and non-existence (natthitaa). Now, Kaccaayana, one who with right wisdom (sammappa~n~naaya) sees the arising of the world as it really is, does not hold to the non-existence of the world. One who with right wisdom sees the ceasing of the world as it really is, does not hold to the existence of the world. Surely, Kaccaayana, this world mostly is attached to methods, bound to biases (upaayupaadaanaabhinivesavinibandho). But one who does not approach attachment to means, mental obstinacy, and tendency towards bias, who does not cling to it, he does not insist on "It is my self". Then, [one knows]: when suffering arises, it arises; when suffering ceases, it ceases. One is not in doubt, is not uncertain. Here, one comes to have knowledge/insight (~naa.nam) independently of others. Thus this, Kaccaayana, is "right view". Kaccaayana, "Everything exists" (sabbam atthiiti), this is one extreme. "Everything does not exist" (sabba.m natthiiti), this is the other extreme. Kaccaayana, not approaching these two extremes, the Tathaagata (the Buddha) teaches you the Dharma by the middle [way] (majjhena): Conditioned by ignorance are activities; conditioned by activities is consciousness, and so forth. Thus arises this whole mass of suffering. But by the total fading away and ceasing of ignorance, activities cease; from the ceasing of activities, consciousness ceases, and so forth. Thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." ------- Regards, Thomas #131796 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:38 am Subject: Re: Heat and its appearance... - Sarah (2) thomaslaw03 --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > --- "htoonaing@" wrote: > > ... > > Thomas: About Pali texts relevant to the Heart Sutra, or to the middle way (empty of the two extremes), see SN 22.90 or SN 12.15(Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 60-66,192-199). The connection between not-self (anatta) and the middle way is clearly found in the Pali texts. > > Also, 'the emptiness' teachings indicated in the Heart Sutra are closely relevant to the middle way, meaning `empty (devoid) of the two extremes': the self-based view of existence and the self-based view of non-existence (Cf. also Choong Mun-keat, The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism, pp. 34-6). > > > ----------- > > Htoo: I thinking 'Thomas is referring to sassata-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of existence" and to uccheda-di.t.thi for "the self-based view of non-existence. ….. > > Thomas: Thank you very much for this reply. > > Yes, it can in meaning refer to the view (di.t.thi) of sassata (existence) and uccheda (non-existence). > > But if according to the above-mentioned suttas SN 22.90 or SN 12.15, the Pali term for existence is atthitaa, and for non-existence is natthitaa. The teaching is about the two extremes should be overcome, and the training of right view which is the wisdom called the middle [way] (majjhima)should be developed. As SN 12.15 sutta reports the following exchange between the Buddha and the monk Kaccaayana (See Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 192-195): > > "Venerable Sir, it is said: "right view, right view" (sammaadi.t.thi). In what respect is it said "right view", Venerable Sir? > > [The Buddha replied:] This world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two [extremes] (dvaya-nissito): existence (atthitaa) and non-existence (natthitaa). > > Now, Kaccaayana, one who with right wisdom (sammappa~n~naaya) sees the arising of the world as it really is, does not hold to the non-existence of the world. One who with right wisdom sees the ceasing of the world as it really is, does not hold to the existence of the world. > > Surely, Kaccaayana, this world mostly is attached to methods, bound to biases (upaayupaadaanaabhinivesavinibandho). But one who does not approach attachment to means, mental obstinacy, and tendency towards bias, who does not cling to it, he does not insist on "It is my self". Then, [one knows]: when suffering arises, it arises; when suffering ceases, it ceases. One is not in doubt, is not uncertain. Here, one comes to have knowledge/insight (~naa.nam) independently of others. Thus this, Kaccaayana, is "right view". > > Kaccaayana, "Everything exists" (sabbam atthiiti), this is one extreme. "Everything does not exist" (sabba.m natthiiti), this is the other extreme. Kaccaayana, not approaching these two extremes, the Tathaagata (the Buddha) teaches you the Dharma by the middle [way] (majjhena): > > Conditioned by ignorance are activities; conditioned by activities is consciousness, and so forth. Thus arises this whole mass of suffering. But by the total fading away and ceasing of ignorance, activities cease; from the ceasing of activities, consciousness ceases, and so forth. Thus ceases this whole mass of suffering." > > ------- > > Regards, > > Thomas > ---------- Dear Htoo, and All, Also, SN 12.15 is the same content as SN 22.90. Thomas #131797 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:21 pm Subject: Re: TA on gocara philofillet Hi Alberto > > Ph: I always remover Should have been "remember", I thought I turned off the auto correction but accumulations.... what Ajahn said to Lukas at the end of the Poland trip, > visible object, visible object. Gradually, now and then, just beginning to > understand nama which must know an object and visible object or sound etc then > already thinking. > > A: That's right, the natural and only way, and the most difficult too, that's why khanti it's a parami, and it's needed. Ph: I wonder if "difficult" is the right word. Subtle? Rarefied? People who take pride in going on retreats love "difficult." It has to be natural, with the only striving and effort involved the arising of momentary dhammas such as kusala virya. Any idea of "effort" in the conventional sense ( fueled by misinterpretations of suttas) will be all about greed and impatience. We have have khanti ( the virya cetasika) about the mangala of being sensitive to the Dhamma as well. So easy to want to get involved in something hard and therefore deep-feeling. A: And shortcuts just pile up more bricks on the already thick wall, or another layer to an already tough shell. Ph: "The shortcut is lobha." (Lobha with ditthi, I would add.) > > Ph: Is it worth wondering what it means or how it can be that there is visible > object that is Dhamma text and visible object that is white wall and sound that > is words of wise Dhamma friend etc and sound that is useless? How can that be? > > A: Visible object is one reality with its single and unique characteristic, like for each of all others nama or rupa dhammas, like heat, it can be of different degrees, but whatever these are their characteristic is one and the same, which nobody can change or make it up (not even a Buddha), whether one knows its characteristic or not. > The characteristic of visible object is that which impinge or comes into contact with eye-base, that which only seeing can experience (i.e. hearing can't experience visible object), by the time one recognizes a word on a printed on a page, any word, seeing's already gone. Sa~n~na arising with later cittas condition the concept of word or wall or whatever. Ph: Right. I won't allow myself to ponder the confusion I have about visible object and how it varies. Pondering won't clarify it. Studying in detail might but now is not time for that. Visible object is that which is seen. Now. Good enough. Phil > #131798 From: "philip" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:32 pm Subject: Re: The second question philofillet Hi Azita > > > > I'd like to answer these questions from what I understand. > > > > > > "What is seeing?' Seeing is a citta which experiences visible object only. > > > > > > "Is there seeing now" yes, because visible object appears. > > > > > > "Does seeing appear?" the citta which sees? I have to answer no, because there is certainly no precise knowing of that particular citta. > > > > > > "is there understanding of seeing that appears now?" theoretical understanding maybe, but no precise understanding of the reality of seeing now. > > > > Ph: I think your answer sound correct. I just wonder about "precise understanding." Does there have to be precise understanding for us to say that a dhamma appears? > > > Az: appears to what? to citta and to which citta? can we know which dhamma appears to which citta without precise/well developed wisdom/understanding? Ph: No. But can't a Dhamma appear without knowing which Dhamma appears to which citta etc. just to know that there is citta with the characteristic of knowing something and rupa which knows nothing? Is that a vipassana~nana that only comes after precise understanding of dhammas is developed? Beyond me. > e.g. I'm staring out the window and there is visible object/color, there's no doubt about that, but its very mixed up with thinking about what is seen. To know a moment of just seeing - well, thats very precise wouldn't you agree? Ph: yes ok, I see what you mean. In any case, always thinking about what is seen, eh? > > You may remember that I got and I guess still am attached to a portion of a discussion in which Ajahn said that rupa appears more often than n a m a. Sarah disputed that sportily and Ajahn said well can we say n a m a is more subtle? And Sarah feistily fought that as well! And some years later when it was brought up at JK when I was there Ajahn agrees with Sarah. No rules. But I still feel that rupa appears more often and is less subtle. No rules about trying to see rupa more, butcI just have a bunch that it is a nature of rupa to appear more than mama. Which brings us back to what "appears" means. Becomes an object if awareness? Is that awareness precise? > > > az: I agree, no rules, and I would suggest that thinking 'covers up' a lot of realities that appear at the sense doors. Ph: That makes sense. However, I remember being confused about this cuz I think Ajahn said something like seeing covers things up rather than thinking covers things up. It was a confusing point that Sarah or someone asked on my behalf years ago. But it was something counter-intuitive about the "covering up" I have a feeling Sarah will remember what I am referring to. Phil #131799 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:22 pm Subject: Re: Samaadhi nichiconn Dear Htoo, > PS: Amara has better proficiency in Paa.li than me. > Perhaps, but thanks for taking the trouble to answer. I guess i should hit the books... didn't i used to want to try to teach myself to read? peace, connie > > > > Samaadhi sutta.m in khandha-sa.myutta.m of sa.mpayutta > > > nikaaya says-: > > > > > > "Samaadhi.m, bhikkhave, bhaavetha! Samaahito, bhikkhave, bhikkhu yathaabhuuta.m > > > pajaanaati. Ki~nca yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati? > > > > > > 1. ruupassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > ruupassa( to ruupa) > Samudayo (for subject_in grammar)) > Samudaya.m (for object_grammar) > attha`ngama.m = falling away > > ca = also, as well as, and so many uses (it is nipaata-pada in Paa.li grammar) > > "arising as well as falling away" > > > 2. vedanaaya samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > > > 3. sa~n~naaya samudaya~nca atta`ngama~nca > > > 4. sa`nkhaaraana.m samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca > > > 5. vi~n~naa.nassa samudaya~nca attha`ngama~nca. > > >