#132200 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 1:06 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... Dear Sarah, Thanks for your information. With respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: Dear Htoo & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > Aananda wept when the Buddha was just going to pass away. The Buddha said "Aananda, do not weep/cry. I have preached 'dhamma and vinaya'. When your teacher (the Buddha) pass away, this 'dhamma and vinaya' will be your teacher. Here the Buddha definitely said 'dhamma and vinaya'. (Ref: Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m_mahaavagga_diighanikaaya) > > > > There is no mentioning on "Abhidhamma". The Buddha never preached "Abhidhamma" to human beings except Saariputta. So "Abhidhamma" was not in there 'dhamma & vinaya'. > .... > S: Commentary on the Four Great References, Mahaparinibbana Sutta (transl by Yang-Gu An, PTS). ***** "But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, ***sutta means the three baskets** which the three Councils recited. 'Accordance with sutta' means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate].'The word of the teacher' means the commentary. 'One's own opinion' means one's own illumination through grasping an analogy or one's consequent understanding. "Of these, sutta should not be rejected, for he who rejects that rejects the Buddha himself. If what is legitimate by being in accord agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. If the word of a teacher agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.One's own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not." ... Metta Sarah ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: "Yo vo, Aananda, mayaa dhammo ca vinayo ca desito pa~n~natto, so vo mamaccayena satthaa."(Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m_Mahaa vagga_Diigha nikaaya). "dhammo desito mayaa" = Dhamma have been preached by me. "vinayo pa~n~natto mayaa" = Disciplines have been laid down by me. With respect, Htoo Naing #132201 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 1:42 am Subject: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, For lay people they have to observe basic siila of 5 precepts. This siila is to be observed for life. The precepts invlove avoiding killing, stealing, adultery, lying, drinking alcohol. If someone never kill any life, never steal anything, never commit adultery, never lie, never take alcohol, it is good for him. But there is the case that one has to take refuge in triple gems of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sa.mgha and after that take the promise from a monk that he will not breaking these five precepts. If this has been done and the precepts are not broken then he does not need to re-take the precepts. This is establishment of siila for lay people. But if someone is developing satipatthana this 5 precepts is not enough and he should avoid all form of sex, avoid all forms of straining on others, avoid all forms of stealing or occupying things of other in any way, avoid all forms of lying, avoid saying rude words, avoid saying separating words to two friends, avoid unfruitful speech, and avoid unclean livelihood, and avoid taking any intoxicants. Some may deny that 5 precepts is not a requisite to attain sotaapanna-ship. There are the caes that some murderers became sotapanna even after killing many human beings (official professional killer of a king and has to kill those who got dead sentence). Some fishermen became a sotapanna (after killing and selling many many fish). Some drunkard even became arahat (Santati Minister). May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-31 DT-918 #132202 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 2:54 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) philofillet Dear Htoo > > This is establishment of siila for lay people. But if someone is developing satipatthana this 5 precepts is not enough and he should avoid all form of sex, I have asked about this before. Did you not concede that this is not in the tipitika butbis instead Htoo's original idea, or from Sayadaw Mahasi's organization? I can't recall. But please stick to tipitika and commentaies if at all possible, thank you. Phil #132203 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 12:08 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, Thank you very much for the traditional accounts about the Pali Buddhist texts. It is very useful indeed. Regards, Thomas #132204 From: "Robert E" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 2:22 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi James. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Try developing concentration/samatha without patience sometime - not possible. I think that's kind of obvious. > > > > James: No, it is not so obvious to me. I guess it depends on how you define patience. If you define patience as in "Oh, I have plenty of time to get this done", then no I don't agree with you. If you define patience as "I must endure that which is difficult or causes me stress." Then yes I do agree with you. Yeah, that's what I meant - the latter. :-) Although part of what we must endure which is difficult is how long it takes, and how hard and long a journey it is. Endurance does have to do with how long you can put up with something. But I don't mean to relax and wait, and be passive. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - #132205 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 2:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > >Htoo: > > Even you have right view of impermanence samaadhi is required. Without > > samaadhi you will not be on the right path. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Are you referring to the samadhi as in one of the universal cetasikas, > namely ekaggata? Or are you talking about the so-called practice of > samadhi?If the latter, I am still waiting for a logical explanation > regarding its role in the development of the Path. Why do you say that > the practice of samadhi is needed for the development of Right View > which sees into the characteristic of impermanence? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I am not referring to ekaggataa. Many suttas describe. Right view is > separate. Concentration is separate. Mindfulness is separate. Effort > is separate. I mean to see separately. They work together. > Do the other "Sammas" of the Path have panna cetasika as a conditioning factor? Is there right effort, right concentration, right view, right thought and so on as cetasikas during a moment of satipatthana or vipassana? If so, why do you also interpret the factors of the Eightfold path as each being separate practices? > Manodvaravithi for magga-appanaa has only 8 cittas. > > 1. minddoor adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) > 2. 1st anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) > 3. 2nd anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) > 4. 3rd anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) > 5. gotrabhu citta (like nibbana-door)_Kaamaavacara citta > 6. magga citta (only 1 kha.na)_lokuttara citta (kusala) > 7. 1st phala citta (lokuttara citta)_(vipaaka) > 8. 2nd phala citta (lokuttara citta)_(vipaaka) > > This series is very short. This is the time of path arising. Only at > that time there are 8 magga`nga or all 8 parts arise together. > > Even you understand well and you do not have wrong view and you have > right-view of sammaa-ditthi its power has to be the same with other > path factors. > And these are developed as separate practices....? What is the practice of samma sankappa and samma kammanta for example, and what determines their rightness? > > You are talking on citta as if citta is a person. It does not have > any quality. It just has characteristic. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > In talking about a citta rooted in moha and lobha, do you say that the > particular citta has the characteristic of akusala? > I was responding to your suggestion that the practice of samadhi makes > it easier for the Path to arise. In referring to the difference in > "quality" of citta, I was trying to point out that a jhana citta is > different in terms of not only characteristic, but also of function, > from that of the Path. So this is what you should be responding to > rather than tell me that I am making citta into a person. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > :) Apology. It has to be free from hindrances. > 1. upacaara samaadhi (arise from any kind of 40 kammatthanas) > 2. 1st jhaana quality > 3. 2nd jhaana ,, > 4. 3rd jhaana ,, > 5. 4th jhaana ,, > 6. 1st arupa-jhaana quality > 7. 2nd arupa-jhaana ,, > 8. 3rd arupa-jhaana ,, > 9. 4th arupa-jhana ,, > Jhana is free from hindrances by virtue of the conditioning factors within itself. Satipatthana is also free from hindrances by virtue of the conditioning factors within itself. Jhana is conditioned by one kind of understanding, the object of which is a concept (with the exception of 2 as you point out). Satipatthana is conditioned by one kind of wisdom, the object of which is characteristic of a reality, and this can even be the characteristic of one of the five hindrances. The reason that even the hindrances or any akusala can be the object of Satipatthana is because of the superiority of this kind of understanding over that of Jhana, and this shows why *it does not need* the latter's assistance. What it needs are the paramis and Jhana is not a parami. Besides, these paramis influence the accumulation of panna not in the way you suggest the need for Jhana. > All 8 jhaanas are appanaa-samaadhi. Magga viithi is also > appanaa-samaadhi. Phala is also appanaa-samaadhi. Phala-samaapatti is > also appanaa-samaadhi. > This is a misleading reasoning. Magga and Phala are *appana* samadhi for totally different reasons from that of Jhana. > If not to one of these level wisdom will not be full wisdom. > Samma Ditthi is the forerunner of the Path, not Samma Samadhi. > Sukin: > I was referring to the difference in kind of wisdom between that of > Jhana and that of the Path, so yes, the object as well. > So what do you say now, the object of Jhana is not one of the three > characteristic of paramattha dhammas, but a concept. So please explain > to me, how concentration on a concept with the understanding about > "calm" and how this calm can be maintained through repeated > concentration on a meditation subject, can make it easier for the the > kind of concentration conditioned by Right View, the object of which > is a characteristic of paramattha dhammas, to arise? What is the > relationship between the kind of development where only sensuous > desire is addressed and the defilements remain suppressed, and the one > which sees the danger of ignorance and therefore aimed at the > eradication of all defilements? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Simple jhaana is not leading to vipassana and to magga. There are 8 > jhaanas. 4 ruupa jhaanas take 'pannati' as their object. 1st and 3rd > arupa-jhana also take 'pannati' as their object. There are only 2 > arupa-jhaana that take the object of 'naama'. They are 2rd > arupa-jhaana and 4th arupa-jhaana. Their objects are cittas. > Is the object of 2nd and 4th arupa jhana the characteristic and understood as dhatu? If not, then it can't have any relationship with the Path. Indeed if there is no accumulated Right Understanding, these objects would subsequently be taken for 'atta'. In bringing this to my attention if you are trying to show the relationship between jhana and insight, know that you are relying on specious reasoning, something that the Buddha warned against in the Kalama Sutta. > Enter jhaana. Exit it and contemplate on that. If not close to jhaana > one who attains will be sukka-vipassakaa. If close to jhaana it is > yuganaddha-vipassakaa (both concentration and insight). > So does a sukkha-vipassaka require any prior practice of samadhi or not? And if it requires exiting from jhana for insight to arise, does this not indicate that the Jhana can't be having any influence on the insight and whatever the component of jhana that becomes the object, acts only as object condition? Besides, for those without developed samma ditthi, is it not inevitable that upon exiting, the Jhana is taken for "self". > > Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana, I have said that above. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > Yeah, but you should know that the question was whether the > development of Right Understanding involves knowing all kinds of > dhammas or only kusala. Since you were suggesting the need for samadhi > and the suppression of the hindrances in order for Panna to arise, > this is saying that only kusala can be the object of the kind of > panna, after all when it is akusala which precedes, the hindrances are > not suppressed. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: As long as there is niivara.na path-consciousness cannot arise. > Where did you get this idea from? Nivarana are obstacle to samadhi of samatha practice only. The fact that the development of Right Understanding involves coming to better understand all dhammas including akusala, is evidence that these nivarana dhammas are not hindrances to the arising of samma ditthi or panna cetasika, only ignorance of the Dhamma and the influence of miccha ditthi acts as obstacle. In this regard, the idea that a practice of samadhi to suppress the hindrances, is required for panna to arise is an obstacle, being that it is an idea conceived of by wrong understanding of the Dhamma. > >Htoo: > > No. Not promotion. It is necessity. It can be seen in many sutta.m. > > NEP has samaadhi called sammaa-samaadhi. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > If you reason that because samma-samadhi is mentioned as one of the > eight factors of the Path, therefore this means that Jhana practice is > needed, then you should also believe that samma sankapa, samma vaca, > samma kammanta, samma ajiva, samma vayama, samma sati and samma ditthi > are each separate practices to be followed. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > In prepath there is no direct involvement of siila-magga`nga. It just > surrounds the prepath. Again prepath is worldly things. It is lokiya. > Pa~nca`ngika magga or prepath have 5 factors. All have to be sammaa. > Your sammaa-ditthi is also there. These 5 factors must have equal power. > Where is it mentioned that the other factors are not pre-path and samma samadhi is? What I know is that five or six of the factors arise (together) during lokiya moments and all eight do so during lokuttara. Anyway, the question is, if the Buddha put them all together, why do you choose to take a particular one out to give it special significance in terms of being a practice on its own? > Sukin: > So now can you please describe to me, what each of these practices are > in the sense of "doing" something? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Yeah. Viriya is *doing*. Vitakka of sammaa-sa`nkappa is *doing*. > Concentration of at least upacaara-samaadhi is *doing*. Samma-sati is > *doing*. These are *doing*, so they are called kaaraka magga`nga. Or > working magga or *doing* magga. Without *doing* nothing can be true > prepath. If no true prepath, there will never be path. > Do you not understand my question or are you intentionally changing the meaning? Is the *doing* in terms of function of each of the cetasikas the same as the *doing* of jhana practice? As I said in another response, the *doing* that is being objected to by some of us, is the function of miccha ditthi cetasika manifested as wrong practice. > > Htoo: > > You are totally wrong. > > > Noble Eightfold Path is just a moment. It is at magga kha.na. It is > as the result of *practice*. The practice is vipassanaa. The practice > is satipa.t.thaana. Without this anyone including Sammaasambuddhas, > paccekabuddhas, and all saavaka cannot attain nibbaana. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > I was referring to the Path as a particular kind of development > corresponding with pariyatti > patipatti > pativedha or suttamaya > panna > cintamaya panna > bhavanamaya panna. Was I totally wrong to do > this? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You stop at pariyatti level. Without *doing* there will not be > pa.tivedha. So I said you are wrong. > *Doing* by cetasikas or the other kind of doing as in silabbataparamasa? If *doing* as in the function of particular cetasikas, this happens with pariyatti level as well. So no worry, these being sankhara dhammas, will accumulate and one day become doings by these same cetasikas at the levels of patipatti and pativedha. The doing that you try so hard to promote however, is that of miccha ditthi, and this is exactly because of lack of pariyatti, and which will never lead to pativedha. > Sukin: > Should the reference to the development of the Path be limited only to > magga? > > Anyway, you should have got my meaning and tried to respond to the > main point, namely, the development of panna from the very beginning > involves understanding all jatis of dhammas. This leads to panna > growing keener becoming indriya, bala and so on, implying that no > akusala (except for wrong view) would be a hindrance to such panna. > The idea that samadhi is needed to suppress the hindrances must > therefore be totally wrong! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Not wrong(last part I refer to). Understanding at pariyatti level has > passed and pa.tipatti is being *practiced* *doing is being done*. > Bala, indriya, sammappadhaana, bojjha`nga all need *doing*. > And this you believe exactly because there is no pariyatti yet! > Sukin: > And there must be jhana factors now, without which you wouldn't think, > read, or type any message. So without samadhi and vitakka - vicara, > there will not be thinking with lobha or dosa either. Don't we > therefore refer to these two roots and ignorance when talking about > what is akusala rather than the role of samadhi? And is strength of > akusala the result of accumulated samadhi? So why the need to see > samadhi as leading to panna? > > It must be due to wrong understanding at the level of pariyatti, > leading to wrong idea about patipatti! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Nope. Sati, panna(dhammaavicaya), viriya (*doing*), piiti(jhaana > factor), passaddhi (jhaana factor), samaadhi (jhaana factor), > uppekkhaa (jhaana factor). So jhaana factors are very important. > Important as being mental factors each performing their functions and supporting samma ditthi, or important according to the dictates of miccha ditthi which tries to convince that *doing* by 'self' in the name of developing these jhana factors is required? Metta, Sukin #132206 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 5:52 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi Rob E and James Interesting to note that khanti ( usually translated as patience) is not a cetasika in itself but is instead considered ( if I rcall correctly) virya cetasika. So a more helpul way to think of patience is as an impulse of energy that rises with all kusala. You can choose to stick to conventionsl ideas of patience in difficult situations etc if you prefer. Most people do. But you are't most people, are you? Or are you? Phil P.s Conventionally speaking, I am being patient in a very difficult situation these days. But that is and can only be about the story of Phil being patient, a useless story at best. Gotta get to the dhammas, dudes. Down to the realities. And patience as a reality is a moment of virya performing its function. Nina, Htoo or other Abhidhamma experts, correct me, if I got that wrong. #132207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada nilovg Dear Phil, Op 4 aug 2013, om 09:52 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > And patience as a reality is a moment of virya performing its function. Nina, Htoo or other Abhidhamma experts, correct me, if I got that wrong. ------ N: We discussed this before. Patience, like some of the other perfections, is not a specific cetasika, but as you say, when there is patience, viriya performs its function. ------ Nina. #132208 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 8:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi Nina (and James and Rob E) > > > And patience as a reality is a moment of virya performing its function. Nina, Htoo or other Abhidhamma experts, correct me, if I got that wrong. > ------ > N: We discussed this before. Patience, like some of the other perfections, is not a specific cetasika, but as you say, when there is patience, viriya performs its function. > ------ Thanks. Would you agree that rather than placing value on the story of a person being pstient in certain difficult situations it is more helpful to remember that dhammas are performing functions? I suppose it must be more valuable to remember that, otherwise wouldn't we be placing value on being the good-and-patient person, with attachment to that view of ourselves? Phil #132209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada nilovg Dear Phil, Op 4 aug 2013, om 12:24 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > Would you agree that rather than placing value on the story of a person being pstient in certain difficult situations it is more helpful to remember that dhammas are performing functions? ------ N: Many sobhana cetasikas performing their functions. Anyway, there is no person being patient. Nina #132210 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 4, 2013 11:47 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo > > > > > This is establishment of siila for lay people. But if someone is developing satipatthana this 5 precepts is not enough and he should avoid all form of sex, > > > I have asked about this before. Did you not concede that this is not in the tipitika butbis instead Htoo's original idea, or from Sayadaw Mahasi's organization? I can't recall. But please stick to tipitika and commentaies if at all possible, thank you. > > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, It is something like 'fire & water' if "enjoying sensual pleasure and drying up sensual pleasure". For lay people the Buddha prescribed 5 precepts or pa~nca-siila. THe observation on these 5 precepts is not to be reborn in lower realms of foue woeful states namely hell, animal, ghost, devil. Just observing 5 precepts is not enough to proceed liberation. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132211 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada jagkrit2012 Dear Nina, Phil and friends Patient or khanti combines with many cetasikas. One is of cause viriya cetasikas. But khanti can have different cetasika acting as the leading cetasika. Patient to aversion, metta or adosa cetasika acts as the leading role. Patient to attachment, alobha cetasika acts as the leading role. Patient to ignorance, panna cetasika acts as the leading role to keep on and on to understanding, not to find any short cut or do something with wrong views. Each cetasika delivers its duty so precisely as it is, no one does. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132212 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 2:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: Hello Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I am not referring to ekaggataa. Many suttas describe. Right view is > separate. Concentration is separate. Mindfulness is separate. Effort > is separate. I mean to see separately. They work together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do the other "Sammas" of the Path have panna cetasika as a conditioning factor? Is there right effort, right concentration, right view, right thought and so on as cetasikas during a moment of satipatthana or vipassana? If so, why do you also interpret the factors of the Eightfold path as each being separate practices? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Manodvaravithi for magga-appanaa has only 8 cittas. > 1. minddoor adverting consciousness (manodvaravajjana citta) > 2. 1st anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) > 3. 2nd anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) > 4. 3rd anuloma citta (kaamaavacara) > 5. gotrabhu citta (like nibbana-door)_Kaamaavacara citta > 6. magga citta (only 1 kha.na)_lokuttara citta (kusala) > 7. 1st phala citta (lokuttara citta)_(vipaaka) > 8. 2nd phala citta (lokuttara citta)_(vipaaka) > This series is very short. This is the time of path arising. Only at > that time there are 8 magga`nga or all 8 parts arise together. > Even you understand well and you do not have wrong view and you have > right-view of sammaa-ditthi its power has to be the same with other > path factors. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And these are developed as separate practices....? What is the practice of samma sankappa and samma kammanta for example, and what determines their rightness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If rightness is not there magga-citta cannot arise. I wrote "manodvaravithi" at the time of arising of path-consciousness. There are all 8 rights when path-consciousness. Otherwise there are not all 8 factors when in ordinary time. Rightness is determined by panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > :) Apology. It has to be free from hindrances. > 1. upacaara samaadhi (arise from any kind of 40 kammatthanas) > 2. 1st jhaana quality > 3. 2nd jhaana ,, > 4. 3rd jhaana ,, > 5. 4th jhaana ,, > 6. 1st arupa-jhaana quality > 7. 2nd arupa-jhaana ,, > 8. 3rd arupa-jhaana ,, > 9. 4th arupa-jhana ,, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Jhana is free from hindrances by virtue of the conditioning factors within itself. Satipatthana is also free from hindrances by virtue of the conditioning factors within itself. Jhana is conditioned by one kind of understanding, the object of which is a concept (with the exception of 2 as you point out). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. Agree. Even these 2 exception is not 'arising now dhamma' not 'present dhamma'. So it is the power of jhaana. Not jhaana itself. Enter jhaana. Exit . In the vicinity of jhaana while jhaana is seen as object, then satipatthana arises. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Satipatthana is conditioned by one kind of wisdom, the object of which is characteristic of a reality, and this can even be the characteristic of one of the five hindrances. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saraaga.m vaa citta.m saraaga.m cittanti pajaanaati. Viitaraaga.m vaa citta.m ..... 1. saraaga citta.m (kaamacchanda niivara.na) 2. viitaraaga citta.m (citta free of ta.nhaa/lobha) Yes. Niivara.na dhamma can be the object of satipatthana. But not in advanced stage. On the way to path, there can be akusala (but subtle ones), even poor-understanding may be there. Wrong view may be there and view cannot be completely right. This happens at the high of magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The reason that even the hindrances or any akusala can be the object of Satipatthana is because of the superiority of this kind of understanding over that of Jhana, and this shows why *it does not need* the latter's assistance. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not completely right. At least there must be kha.nika samaadhi, which has the quality of upacaara samaadhi of jhaana. Without samaadhi panna cannot arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Simple jhaana is not leading to vipassana and to magga. There are 8 > jhaanas. 4 ruupa jhaanas take 'pannati' as their object. 1st and 3rd > > arupa-jhana also take 'pannati' as their object. There are only 2 > > arupa-jhaana that take the object of 'naama'. They are 2rd > > arupa-jhaana and 4th arupa-jhaana. Their objects are cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is the object of 2nd and 4th arupa jhana the characteristic and understood as dhatu? If not, then it can't have any relationship with the Path. Indeed if there is no accumulated Right Understanding, these objects would subsequently be taken for 'atta'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have responded this matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In bringing this to my attention if you are trying to show the relationship between jhana and insight, know that you are relying on specious reasoning, something that the Buddha warned against in the Kalama Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Let it be. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Enter jhaana. Exit it and contemplate on that. If not close to jhaana > one who attains will be sukka-vipassakaa. If close to jhaana it is > yuganaddha-vipassakaa (both concentration and insight). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So does a sukkha-vipassaka require any prior practice of samadhi or not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Require. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And if it requires exiting from jhana for insight to arise, does this not indicate that the Jhana can't be having any influence on the insight and whatever the component of jhana that becomes the object, acts only as object condition? Besides, for those without developed samma ditthi, is it not inevitable that upon exiting, the Jhana is taken for "self". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Up on exit, as you said there is danger of cognizing as atta. And equally there is a good opportunity to see dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: As long as there is niivara.na path-consciousness cannot arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Where did you get this idea from? Nivarana are obstacle to samadhi of samatha practice only. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. "Jhaanaadika.m nivaarenti'iti nivara.naani" Aadi means 'beginning' 'etc'. Jhaanaadi means 'jhaana, magga, ...' Nivaareti means 'to hinder' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The fact that the development of Right Understanding involves coming to better understand all dhammas including akusala, is evidence that these nivarana dhammas are not hindrances to the arising of samma ditthi or panna cetasika, only ignorance of the Dhamma and the influence of miccha ditthi acts as obstacle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not true. For understanding yes. But path cannot arise with niivara.na. And true satipatthana cannot arise with nivara.na. True vipassanaa cannot arise with niivara.na. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In this regard, the idea that a practice of samadhi to suppress the hindrances, is required for panna to arise is an obstacle, being that it is an idea conceived of by wrong understanding of the Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Samaadhi(jhaana) is required. See the Buddha's words. Majjhima nikaaya: uparipannaasa: indriyabhaavanaa sutta.m "Jhaayatha! (do jhaana),Aananda, maa pamaadattha. Maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha. Aya.m vo amhaaka.m anusaasanii." Whether you accept or not is not my part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > In prepath there is no direct involvement of siila-magga`nga. It just > surrounds the prepath. Again prepath is worldly things. It is lokiya. > Pa~nca`ngika magga or prepath have 5 factors. All have to be sammaa. > Your sammaa-ditthi is also there. These 5 factors must have equal power. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Where is it mentioned that the other factors are not pre-path and samma samadhi is? What I know is that five or six of the factors arise (together) during lokiya moments and all eight do so during lokuttara. Anyway, the question is, if the Buddha put them all together, why do you choose to take a particular one out to give it special significance in terms of being a practice on its own? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There 3 viratii cetasikas. They cannot arise together in lokiya kusala cittas. Only one in one occasion. At the time when vipassanaa is developing there is nothing to do with these 3 viratii cetasikas. For sammaa-ditthi one has to study as much as possible. 1. suneyya (should listen to dhamma) 2. cinteyya(should consider on what is heard or read) 3. puccheyya(should ask to someone who knows dhamma) 4. bhaaseyya(should discuss, should speak) 5. likkheyya(should write down and learn) 6. sikkheyya(should practice, should *do*) 7. dhaareyya(should bring dhamma in hand) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Metta, > > Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agreed parts are omitted. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132213 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 2:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Dear Sukin, Sorry for the black. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do the other "Sammas" of the Path have panna cetasika as a conditioning factor? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. They do ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Is there right effort, right concentration, right view, right thought and so on as cetasikas during a moment of satipatthana or vipassana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. All have to be there as sammaas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If so, why do you also interpret the factors of the Eightfold path as each being separate practices? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To consider, to check, to think over as separate things so that they all become sammaas. Whether they are separately practiced is not the problem but they have to finally come together as full power. If one is not in full power then the path cannot arise. With Meta, Htoo Naing #132214 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 2:38 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada htoonaing... Phil: Hi Rob E and James Interesting to note that khanti ( usually translated as patience) is not a cetasika in itself but is instead considered ( if I rcall correctly) virya cetasika. So a more helpul way to think of patience is as an impulse of energy that rises with all kusala. You can choose to stick to conventionsl ideas of patience in difficult situations etc if you prefer. Most people do. But you are't most people, are you? Or are you? Phil P.s Conventionally speaking, I am being patient in a very difficult situation these days. But that is and can only be about the story of Phil being patient, a useless story at best. Gotta get to the dhammas, dudes. Down to the realities. And patience as a reality is a moment of virya performing its function. Nina, Htoo or other Abhidhamma experts, correct me, if I got that wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I wrote to Sukin (when Sarah pointed out in a post), I am not expert in abhidhamma. Please do not equate me with real experts like Nina, Sarah and so on. I have been studying abhidhamma and this will be endless. So I go along with practice. We cannot know our hidden conditions and accumulations. That is why I go on with practice. "Khanti" Khanti itself is condition. It is not cetasika. Khanti has 'adosa' as cetasika and all other sobhana cetasikas or beautiful cetasikas. Adosa works as 'adosa' , 'metta', 'khanti' and so on. I think Sarah will have more to talk on khanti. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132215 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 9:49 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Hi Rob E and James > > Interesting to note that khanti ( usually translated as patience) is not a cetasika in itself but is instead considered ( if I rcall correctly) virya cetasika. So a more helpul way to think of patience is as an impulse of energy that rises with all kusala. You can choose to stick to conventionsl ideas of patience in difficult situations etc if you prefer. Most people do. But you are't most people, are you? Or are you? > > Phil > > P.s Conventionally speaking, I am being patient in a very difficult situation these days. But that is and can only be about the story of Phil being patient, a useless story at best. > Gotta get to the dhammas, dudes. Down to the realities. And patience as a reality is a moment of virya performing its function. Nina, Htoo or other Abhidhamma experts, correct me, if I got that wrong. I have no problem with the Abhidhamma technical description of how patience arises. However, I'd just point out that understanding the mechanics of the moment -- the "math" of it, so to speak, is not necessarily the best way to encounter a quality, cetasika or whatever, at all times. There is a time for getting technical knowledge, and there are times to contemplate the nature of the thing being discussed - its qualities and its role. Thinking about patience can be valuable, just as it can be valuable to understanding the technicalities for clarity in another context. The idea that it is always one or the other -- a precise statement of X + Y = Z, or else some mushy worldly concept, I think is, as usual, missing the understanding of how things get to be known and understood, even dhammas. When panna arises "for real," for instance, it's not experienced as sa definition. A reality, even a momentary one, has qualities that are experienced directly and they're not even experienced in Pali. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = #132216 From: "connie" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:22 am Subject: Re: Poland 2 nichiconn dear Georgy Porjy, Herman:> I would not recommend DMT-type stuff for those who are not practiced in mindfulness. connie: I suspect there's never been anything to recommend DMT-type stuff to anyone practiced in mindfulness. #132217 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hi Htoo, > > Htoo: This is dilution. This is over-generalization. There are many > > who are not true Buddhists. If true Theravadan Buddhists they are more > > than 99.99999% right practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Only panna at the level of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha can be > considered Dhamma students. There are many who you'd consider > Theravada Buddhists but who in fact have not in this life, experienced > any level of pariyatti understanding even. Therefore from where I > stand, they have never been students of Dhamma at all. For them to > have experienced right practice can only be the projection of wrong view. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Something must be wrong in your assumption. I would not proceed to > discuss 'this point'. > No problem. But I'd like to explain the assumption. There is study of Dhamma only when panna of pariyatti, patipatti or pativedha has arisen, otherwise it is reading or practice, with ignorance and attachment, if not also with wrong view. Wrong ideas about practice can't come from right pariyatti understanding, it can only come from wrong understanding. So when someone suggests as patipatti what from my point of view, is not, I take it that that person has yet to have right understanding at the level of pariyatti. And if this same person claims to have experienced right understanding at the level of patipatti, this must be delusion conditioned by wrong understanding. > > Sukin: > Dhamma students should not follow anyone. > >---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: So you desert all your teachers. This might include the Buddha > > > who originally laid down the dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I go to my teacher and the Buddha because they encourage me to > "develop understanding" and not just to "follow"! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You *said* "Dhamma students should not follow anyone." > You mean if I go to a teacher to listen to the Dhamma, this means that I am *following* him or her and the Buddha? > > Htoo: > > Do you mean that "it is not needed to read what the Buddha said"? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that understanding > should lead the way. And because this is not what has happened with > most so-called Buddhists today, that the idea of "meditation" for > example, has become so popular, and there are so many corrupted > Bhikkhus, and meditation teachers who have managed to amass so much > wealth through setting up retreats, publication of books and receiving > donations. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You should not generalised. In countries where livelihood is high - > feeding, electricity, water do matter. > > International meditation centre (IMC) in Yangon, Myanmar when the > teacher U Ba Khin began to run retreats food, light, electricity, > water and all were free. So also in other centres. > Not all are motivated by gain of course, some prefer fame and praise. Anyway, I was not generalizing in terms of everyone doing something, I said that there are 'many' who do it. > Sukin: > Recognizing wrong view at the level of pariyatti understanding should > not be read as suggesting that the wrong view has been eradicated. The > detachment is reference to alobha cetasika accompanying any level of > right understanding. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: You seem theoretically eradicate wrong view. > You mean, because wrong view has not been eradicated and since the understanding is only at the pariyatti level, if I am sincere, I should not be concerned about wrong practice and just do it? > Htoo: > Right. :) :). Yes Marathon. Actually I am not denying understanding > but you are denying *doing*. > Actually when you promote the "doings", you are denying understanding as a conditioned dhamma? > I am not stubborn. But > I believe *doing* is necessary. The case that 'the elder was sent to > others and finally came to the young', I will post again when I catch > the reference. > Thanks, I look forward to it. Metta, Sukin #132218 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear friends Some part of Thai dhamma discussion in the introduction to Abhidhamma by TA Sujin (translation) : Question: I has listen to dhamma since this morning but I feel so dull so dry. It is not like learning to make curry. This kind of curry is for the morning dish. This's for lunch and this's for dinner. I feel, Well! this is useful. I want to learn more with excitement. But reading dhamma is boring. ...................... TA Sujin: You said it's dull because dhamma is actually not in the paper. There are so many books of Tipitika, commentaries and other texts which were written after the Lord Buddha passed away and more dhamma books written by many authors this day. But there are all in papers. The dullness is because there is no understanding but just remembering names. When reading names, we only know where this words come from. We can access a lot of texts and more. But dhamma is not in the books. Listening to dhamma is for the purpose of having dhamma as refuge. When one studies dhamma and still has to ask another that is this kusala or akusala?. It means that he does not have any idea of dhamma. He just get an answer but not by his own understanding deriving from listening and contemplating until it is his right view and becomes refuge for him. Many people say that studying Abhidhamma is dull not like reading suttas which tell many stories of people and events which were quite the same as people's lives nowadays even there are some differences of daily activities. Because they do not understand that abhidhamma is about reality right now, no things, beings, people or self. When understanding accumulates, one will know that every moment is dhamma. There will be more firm on sacca nana (wisdom of knowing the truth) to understand anatta (no self) and this is the way of heedness. This is different to understanding only names which one can show that this word comes from this or that sutta. But every moment of kusala is the opposite of heedlessness. One should gradually learn to understand realities even thought it is easy to forget and become self again, wishing to do this or that. Forgetful that dhamma is reality, no one can change but develop right understanding and right view toward characteristic of reality, not only names or stories. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132219 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 2:46 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. thomaslaw03 --- "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear friends > > Some part of Thai dhamma discussion in the introduction to Abhidhamma by TA Sujin (translation) : > > Question: I has listen to dhamma since this morning but I feel so dull so dry. It is not like learning to make curry. This kind of curry is for the morning dish. This's for lunch and this's for dinner. I feel, Well! this is useful. I want to learn more with excitement. But reading dhamma is boring. > ...................... > > TA Sujin: You said it's dull because dhamma is actually not in the paper. There are so many books of Tipitika, commentaries and other texts which were written after the Lord Buddha passed away and more dhamma books written by many authors this day. But there are all in papers. > > The dullness is because there is no understanding but just remembering names. When reading names, we only know where this words come from. We can access a lot of texts and more. But dhamma is not in the books. > > Listening to dhamma is for the purpose of having dhamma as refuge. When one studies dhamma and still has to ask another that is this kusala or akusala?. It means that he does not have any idea of dhamma. He just get an answer but not by his own understanding deriving from listening and contemplating until it is his right view and becomes refuge for him. > > Many people say that studying Abhidhamma is dull not like reading suttas which tell many stories of people and events which were quite the same as people's lives nowadays even there are some differences of daily activities. > > Because they do not understand that abhidhamma is about reality right now, no things, beings, people or self. When understanding accumulates, one will know that every moment is dhamma. There will be more firm on sacca nana (wisdom of knowing the truth) to understand anatta (no self) and this is the way of heedness. > > This is different to understanding only names which one can show that this word comes from this or that sutta. But every moment of kusala is the opposite of heedlessness. One should gradually learn to understand realities even thought it is easy to forget and become self again, wishing to do this or that. Forgetful that dhamma is reality, no one can change but develop right understanding and right view toward characteristic of reality, not only names or stories. > > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > I consider Abhidhamma and dhamma or Dhamma are simply not the same thing. Thomas #132220 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 3:00 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear Thomas > T: I consider Abhidhamma and dhamma or Dhamma are simply not the same thing. Jk: It is good to know your view why they are different. Jagkrit #132221 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 4:33 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. thomaslaw03 --- "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear Thomas > > > T: I consider Abhidhamma and dhamma or Dhamma are simply not the same thing. > > Jk: It is good to know your view why they are different. > > Jagkrit > Why they are different? This is because Abhiddham/Ahidharma is not the `teaching of the Buddha' (= dhamma/dharma). Thomas #132222 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. sukinderpal Hi Thomas, Jagkrit, > Why they are different? This is because Abhiddham/Ahidharma is not the > `teaching of the Buddha' (= dhamma/dharma). > Are the teachings in the Sutta and Vinaya from the Buddha? If so, how do you know that? Metta, Sukin #132223 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. thomaslaw03 --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > --- "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > > > Dear Thomas > > > > > T: I consider Abhidhamma and dhamma or Dhamma are simply not the same thing. > > > > Jk: It is good to know your view why they are different. > > > > Jagkrit > > > > Why they are different? This is because Abhiddham/Ahidharma is not the `teaching of the Buddha' (= dhamma/dharma). > > Thomas > Also, the teachings of the Buddha are mainly found in the four Nikayas/Agamas (particularly the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya). Regards, Thomas #132224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 4 aug 2013, om 16:27 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > Patient to ignorance, panna cetasika acts as the leading role to keep on and on to understanding, not to find any short cut or do something with wrong views. ------- N: Thank you. I like this very much as a reminder. BTW it takes very long to connect with dhammahome and they played two recordings at the same time, very difficult to listen to. The recordings on Youtube are better. I liked sattawa hen, in the seeing just the seeing. What is sattawa? T.A. said that the right cause should be cultivated, little by little. If not, we just repeat the words: in the seeing just the seeing. We should not just understand the story, the concept of seeing, but understand the characteristic that appears. The understanding must be very natural (pakketi). Realities appear but understanding is lacking. There can be a beginning of satipa.t.thaana but not yet vipassanaa ~naa.na. T.A. also said that it is so good to know that there are defilements. This is different from calm that temporarily subdues defilements. It is good if you can add something. Nina. #132225 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 6:26 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Rob M. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi James. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > > > Try developing concentration/samatha without patience sometime - not possible. I think that's kind of obvious. > > > > > > > James: No, it is not so obvious to me. I guess it depends on how you define patience. If you define patience as in "Oh, I have plenty of time to get this done", then no I don't agree with you. If you define patience as "I must endure that which is difficult or causes me stress." Then yes I do agree with you. > > Yeah, that's what I meant - the latter. :-) Although part of what we must endure which is difficult is how long it takes, and how hard and long a journey it is. Endurance does have to do with how long you can put up with something. But I don't mean to relax and wait, and be passive. > Well, I see your point when it comes to concentration/samatha meditation. One must indeed cultivate jhana with a lot of patience. It is a painful and tricky process. However, when I think of the paramitas I think of them as being "virtues" which must be cultivated in all instances in order to achieve enlightenment (like a character trait). So, in order to achieve enlightenment I must be "patient" when meditating, and I must also be "patient" when the television set is blaring an obnoxious commercial. I don't agree with that. I don't think I should endure obnoxious commercials just to cultivate the virtue of "patience". I will mute the TV every time! Metta, James #132226 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 6:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada jagkrit2012 Dear Nina >N: BTW it takes very long to connect with dhammahome and they played two recordings at the same time, very difficult to listen to. The recordings on Youtube are better. JK: Yes, I experienced the same because they broadcasted both with video and redio online. You have to pick one. Otherwise, they will run together at the same time. However, playing record discussion on youtube is much better without any delay and interruption. ================ >N: I liked sattawa hen, in the seeing just the seeing. What is sattawa? T.A. said that the right cause should be cultivated, little by little. JK: I missed this part "sattawa hen". Can you give more detail ?. ================= >N: T.A. also said that it is so good to know that there are defilements. This is different from calm that temporarily subdues defilements. JK: I recalled one sutta but can't remember the name. This sutta stated that "When akusala arises, the one who doesn't know is a mokha burut (fool one). When akusala arises, the one who knows is a pandit (wise one). When kusala arises, the one who doesn't know is a mokha burut. When kusala arises, the one who know is a pandit." It's matter to know when akusala or kusala arises, otherwise it is void moment by moment. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132227 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear Thomas > Why they are different? This is because Abhiddham/Ahidharma is not the `teaching of the Buddha' (= dhamma/dharma). > Also, the teachings of the Buddha are mainly found in the four Nikayas/Agamas (particularly the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya). JK : In Thailand, there is one well-known monk propagating that what Buddha said was only in some curtain suttas. The rest of Tipitika is not Buddha teaching and should be ignored from studying. There are many academic commentaries contradict to the view above. But I think it is worthless to go into detail who is wrong or who is right. Instead, one should reasonably study dhamma with open mind and carefully observe the substance of teaching whether they lead to right path of eradicate defilements or lead to more clinging to something as idealism. Anumodhana Jakrit #132228 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote Dear Htoo > > It is something like 'fire & water' if "enjoying sensual pleasure and drying up sensual pleasure". For lay people the Buddha prescribed 5 precepts or pa~nca-siila. > > THe observation on these 5 precepts is not to be reborn in lower realms of foue woeful states namely hell, animal, ghost, devil. Just observing 5 precepts is not enough to proceed liberation. > This is true. But your connecting celibacy to satipatthana is (unless you show otherwise) not from the tipitika or commenaries. Any idea that satipatthana could not arise in any particular situation must indicate wrong view of wanting to try to exert contro over the arising of satipatthana, surely. Phil Phil #132229 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 8:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada philofillet Dear Jagkrit (thanks also Nina and Htoo for your explanations) > Patient or khanti combines with many cetasikas. One is of cause viriya cetasikas. But khanti can have different cetasika acting as the leading cetasika. > > Patient to aversion, metta or adosa cetasika acts as the leading role. > > Patient to attachment, alobha cetasika acts as the leading role. > > Patient to ignorance, panna cetasika acts as the leading role to keep on and on to understanding, not to find any short cut or do something with wrong views. > > Each cetasika delivers its duty so precisely as it is, no one does. > Thank you for this. I have heard of cetasikas being " leading" , but this idea of them being "leading" to perform role of khanti is new to me. It is difficult to understand alobha as a cetasika that leads, although I know it is present with all akusala. Phil #132230 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jakrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > JK : In Thailand, there is one well-known monk propagating that what Buddha said was only in some curtain suttas. The rest of Tipitika is not Buddha teaching and should be ignored from studying. > Really!? Who is this monk? Does he have published writings?? Metta, James #132231 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 8:57 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Dear Rob E > I have no problem with the Abhidhamma technical description of how patience arises. Ph:I appreciate that. > However, I'd just point out that understanding the mechanics of the moment -- the "math" of it, so to speak, is not necessarily the best way to encounter a quality, cetasika or whatever, at all times. Ph: well, I think otgerwise it will just be lobha wanting to establish "understanding" of a cetaska. Our ignorance bd greed are very very thick. > > There is a time for getting technical knowledge, and there are times to contemplate the nature of the thing being discussed - its qualities and its role. Thinking about patience can be valuable, just as it can be valuable to understanding the technicalities for clarity in another context. Ph: Thinking about patience, sure. But then the reality will be thinking. Not patience, and ideas based on conventional notions of patience will certainly be interesting and conforting ( I was patient there! There is patience arising now!) but I don't place much value in the idea of thinking with our own ideas somehow leading to understanding of the characteristics of a parmattha dhamma. Actually in talks I hear again again Ajahn Sujin questioning whether there will be understanding of the degree that identifies namas, and that feels right to me. Our understanding is very very very weak, I think it is best to understand paramattha dhammas in theory, soundly, and that might condition tge deepening of direct understanding very gradually in ways beyond our control. Thinkjng and thinjing and writing and writing are linely to lead tiwards wrong nderstanding unless we are very firmly based in tge correct tgeory first. You say that you have "no problem" with the way dhammas perform functions but are you really able to accept the way dhammas perform functions without obsessive thinking placing your own interpretations in the way of them? I doubt it. You are a modern American guy on the internet who loves to srite and think about thinks and earnestly wants to understand dhammas, all that must obstruct the development of understanding in my opinion but I know my opinion in this is pretty extreme, and may change. I know this is going to trgger a long post from you so I will say thank you in advance and over and out on te topic of patience for me, for now. Phil > The idea that it is always one or the other -- a precise statement of X + Y = Z, or else some mushy worldly concept, I think is, as usual, missing the understanding of how things get to be known and understood, even dhammas. > > When panna arises "for real," for instance, it's not experienced as sa definition. A reality, even a momentary one, has qualities that are experienced directly and they're not even experienced in Pali. > > Best, > Rob E. > > = = = = = = = > #132232 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 9:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi again Jagkrit . > > It is difficult to understand alobha as a cetasika that leads, although I know it is present with all akusala. > Oops. Obvious typo! Phil #132233 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi again Jagkrit > > > Thank you for this. I have heard of cetasikas being " leading" , but this idea of them being "leading" to perform role of khanti is new to me. > I mean, other than virya. I always remember Ajahn asking "what dhamma is khanti" and the answer beung virya. But your expkanation makes sense and I can imagine Ajahn sayng that when there is dosa netta is leader tobperform patience. She is not always 100% consistent and perhaps accepting moments of inconsistency is an example of alobha leading for patience. But that is just speculating. Phil #132234 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:13 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. philofillet Dear Jagkrit and group Isn't the best refuge a monent of understanding the characteristics of a paramattha dhamma, with detachment, now? The hole in the dome of lobha, the chick's weak beak piercing the shell, justing a moment of awareness rising, and then gone again. But there has to be courage to accept this without hungering for more, seeking eacape. I think what modern Buddhists call "refuge" is just mostly escaping dosa by seeking pleasant mind states. That is the way of "practice" as understood today. Escape, not refuge. Phil #132235 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:23 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Phil (aka Mr. Spock :-)), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Ph: Thinking about patience, sure. But then the reality will be thinking. Not patience, and ideas based on conventional notions of patience will certainly be interesting and conforting ( I was patient there! There is patience arising now!) but I don't place much value in the idea of thinking with our own ideas somehow leading to understanding of the characteristics of a parmattha dhamma. James: I have been following your input in this discussion about paramattha dhammas and I wasn't sure where to jump in. Here I think is the right time. I think here you are advocating a non-emotional approach to life and experiencing mind-states that is fantasy. Actually, I am reminded of Mr. Spock, the fictional alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion. He isn't enlightened you understand, but he has used his intellect and brain power to suppress emotion and detach from it. However, that causes him lots and lots of problems later down the road. Actually in talks I hear again again Ajahn Sujin questioning whether there will be understanding of the degree that identifies namas, and that feels right to me. Our understanding is very very very weak, I think it is best to understand paramattha dhammas in theory, soundly, and that might condition tge deepening of direct understanding very gradually in ways beyond our control. James: Actually, I think A. Sujin does the exact same thing you are doing but she is much more slick at it. She doesn't just throw it in people's faces; she makes them think it is their idea. Regardless, it is a folly enterprise (get it, USS Enterprise. LOL!) Thinkjng and thinjing and writing and writing are linely to lead tiwards wrong nderstanding unless we are very firmly based in tge correct tgeory first. James: Is there something wrong with your phone? You sent me this kinda garbled message also a few days ago. You should get your phone checked out. You say that you have "no problem" with the way dhammas perform functions but are you really able to accept the way dhammas perform functions without obsessive thinking placing your own interpretations in the way of them? I doubt it. You are a modern American guy on the internet who loves to srite and think about thinks and earnestly wants to understand dhammas, James: Rob is a 'modern American guy on the Internet who writes and loves to think about things??' Are you serious?? He used to teach a highly attended Abhidhamma class. Maybe he could teach you a thing or two about paramattha dhammas?? all that must obstruct the development of understanding in my opinion but I know my opinion in this is pretty extreme, and may change. I know this is going to trgger a long post from you so I will say thank you in advance and over and out on te topic of patience for me, for now. > James: Hmm...I will reply to this part off-list. Metta, James #132236 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:31 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) ptaus1 Hi all, > H:... The shortest version was the summary preached to Saariputta at Uttara Kuru Island ( one of the four great Island surrounding Mount Meru ). ... > Buddha NEVER preached "Abhidhamma" on this earth (Jambhuu diipa or southern island). On the subject of Jambudipa, sometimes it's used as a synonym for: 1. the human world, 2. Earth 3. Indian subcontinent 4. one of the 4 human worlds. In particular there is the passage in SPD that comes to mind: "There are seven happy planes of rebirth that are the results of kamavacara kusala kamma, namely, one human plane and six heavenly planes or deva planes. In the Tipi?aka it is explained that there are four human planes where one can be reborn: The Pubbavideha continent, situated to the East of Mount Sineru; The Aparagoyana continent, situated to the West of Mount Sineru; The Jambudipa continent, situated to the South of Mount Sineru, and this is the human world where we live; The Uttarakuru continent, situated to the North of Mount Sineru. Human beings who live in this world, the Jambudipa continent (Rose-Apple Land), can only perceive this world. Wherever they travel, they see only the objects of the Jambudipa continent. They are not able to go to the other three human worlds." -- end quote So, I guess the term Jambudiipa is most correctly used as one of the 4 worlds in the human plane? Until reading this in SPD, I never realised that the other three planes are also human worlds, but inaccessible to us. Best wishes pt #132237 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) htoonaing... Sukin: No problem. But I'd like to explain the assumption. There is study of Dhamma only when panna of pariyatti, patipatti or pativedha has arisen, otherwise it is reading or practice, with ignorance and attachment, if not also with wrong view. Wrong ideas about practice can't come from right pariyatti understanding, it can only come from wrong understanding. So when someone suggests as patipatti what from my point of view, is not, I take it that that person has yet to have right understanding at the level of pariyatti. And if this same person claims to have experienced right understanding at the level of patipatti, this must be delusion conditioned by wrong understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Clear. And accepted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > You should not generalised. In countries where livelihood is high - > feeding, electricity, water do matter. > International meditation centre (IMC) in Yangon, Myanmar when the > teacher U Ba Khin began to run retreats food, light, electricity, > water and all were free. So also in other centres. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Not all are motivated by gain of course, some prefer fame and praise. Anyway, I was not generalizing in terms of everyone doing something, I said that there are 'many' who do it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for saying 'not generalizing..' I know there are. This happens generation after generation. I think because of missing 'understanding' as you said. But there are still right places. No promotion, no derogation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Right. :) :). Yes Marathon. Actually I am not denying understanding > but you are denying *doing*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Actually when you promote the "doings", you are denying understanding as a conditioned dhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have to consider it again. It is needed for the path to be trained in siila, samaadhi, and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > I am not stubborn. But > I believe *doing* is necessary. The case that 'the elder was sent to > others and finally came to the young', I will post again when I catch > the reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Thanks, I look forward to it. Metta, Sukin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks a lot for your kind discussions on dhamma matter. I apologize for my behaviour about 7 or 8 years ago when we discussed on 'control' (driving a car and steering). With due respect, Htoo Naing #132238 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 10:53 pm Subject: Re: Manly discussion ptaus1 Hi Sarah and all, > We had discussions with Pt about ditthi (wrong view) and samatha in particular. Yes, the ditthi bit was interesting - my contention was that most of the time when there is thinking about Dhamma without panna (so most of the time), it's in fact with ditthi, because there is attasanna at such times. However, as I understood Jon and Sarah, while lobha can arise in such moments, ditthi arises rarely. Even so, ditthi can still condition wrong practice in many shapes even for those engaged in study only. Regarding samatha - one bit that stuck with me is that when there's talk about maintaining the samatha object in daily life, it's not about focusing on the object, but more about considering what's encountered in terms of the actual object. One bit from a text came to mind - when an elder had the body parts as his samatha object, he only saw a skeleton when someone passed him on the road, without even noticing if it was a man or a woman. In other words, he was considering what he encountered in terms of his samatha object. I never understood that text until now. In that sense I was also wondering - say in terms of the earth kasina, there would be considering everything in terms of the earth element - which makes sense since pretty much everything out there depends on the earth element. But what about the color kasinas for example? What does the blue kasina for example has to do with the world? It's not like there's a "blue element" in the same sense as there is the 4 elements. > When the others arrived, we discussed lots of topics without using Pali terms and always relating the discussions back to the understanding at this moment. Yes, this is always fun, to go way back to basics - it quickly reveals all the stories about Dhamma that keep spinning in my head and have pretty much no relevance to the present moment understanding at all. Best wishes pt #132239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sattawa nilovg Dear Jagkrit, Op 5 aug 2013, om 10:27 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > N: I liked sattawa hen, in the seeing just the seeing. What is sattawa? T.A. said that the right cause should be cultivated, little by little. > > JK: I missed this part "sattawa hen". Can you give more detail ?. ------ N: This Thai wording is also used in a sutta translation: In the seeing, only the seeing must be seen, in the hearing, only the hearing must be seen. In other words, their characteristics have to be known one at a time and they should not be mixed with thinking that is accompanied by defilements. I was just wondering about the Thai sattawa. I the recordings just now this expression was used quite often. ------ Nina. #132240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. nilovg Dear Jagkrit and Thomas, Op 5 aug 2013, om 11:07 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > But I think it is worthless to go into detail who is wrong or who is right. Instead, one should reasonably study dhamma with open mind and carefully observe the substance of teaching whether they lead to right path of eradicate defilements or lead to more clinging to something as idealism. ------ Jagkrit, I think this is well said. One can go on debating and arguing but this does not help. One can consider the meaning when reading suttas or Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma or dhamma, reality now. In what way do what I read help me to understand this moment more and to cling less to conventioanl terms, to I and mine? Nina. #132241 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:13 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote > > > > Dear Htoo > > > > > It is something like 'fire & water' if "enjoying sensual pleasure and drying up sensual pleasure". For lay people the Buddha prescribed 5 precepts or pa~nca-siila. > > > > THe observation on these 5 precepts is not to be reborn in lower realms of foue woeful states namely hell, animal, ghost, devil. Just observing 5 precepts is not enough to proceed liberation. > > > > > This is true. But your connecting celibacy to satipatthana is (unless you show otherwise) not from the tipitika or commenaries. Any idea that satipatthana could not arise in any particular situation must indicate wrong view of wanting to try to exert contro over the arising of satipatthana, surely. > > Phil > > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, thanks for your post. I think you are looking for confirmation of 'connection' in tipitaka. Any object can be used as the object for satipathana. That is why in cittaanupassana portion of satipathana contains opposite cittas. For lay people they have to observe 5 precepts. All will accept. What I included as 'not enough' is for most of people. If someone has enough panna he may attain enlightenment on the only basis of 5 precepts. Even in Buddha's time there were people who did not observe precepts but became enlightened. (Examples: Killer man, fisherman, prostitutes). But these people were not enlightened when they were performing their livelihood. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132242 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:20 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi all, > > > H:... The shortest version was the summary preached to Saariputta at Uttara Kuru Island ( one of the four great Island surrounding Mount Meru ). > ... > > Buddha NEVER preached "Abhidhamma" on this earth (Jambhuu diipa or southern island). > > > On the subject of Jambudipa, sometimes it's used as a synonym for: > 1. the human world, > 2. Earth > 3. Indian subcontinent > 4. one of the 4 human worlds. > > In particular there is the passage in SPD that comes to mind: > > "There are seven happy planes of rebirth that are the results of kamavacara kusala kamma, namely, one human plane and six heavenly planes or deva planes. In the Tipi?aka it is explained that there are four human planes where one can be reborn: > > The Pubbavideha continent, situated to the East of Mount Sineru; > The Aparagoyana continent, situated to the West of Mount Sineru; > The Jambudipa continent, situated to the South of Mount Sineru, and this is the human world where we live; > The Uttarakuru continent, situated to the North of Mount Sineru. > > Human beings who live in this world, the Jambudipa continent (Rose-Apple Land), can only perceive this world. Wherever they travel, they see only the objects of the Jambudipa continent. They are not able to go to the other three human worlds." > -- end quote > > > So, I guess the term Jambudiipa is most correctly used as one of the 4 worlds in the human plane? Until reading this in SPD, I never realised that the other three planes are also human worlds, but inaccessible to us. > > Best wishes > pt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear pt, I wrote not in Jabhuudiipa. The first version of abhidhamma was preached at 2nd deva realm (heavenly plane). The second version was preached to Saariputta at Uttarakuru. With Metta, Htoo Naing (PS: The great rich man Jotika married to a woman from Uttarakuru.) #132243 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, Nina, and Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jagkrit and Thomas, > Op 5 aug 2013, om 11:07 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > > > But I think it is worthless to go into detail who is wrong or who is right. Instead, one should reasonably study dhamma with open mind and carefully observe the substance of teaching whether they lead to right path of eradicate defilements or lead to more clinging to something as idealism. > ------ > Jagkrit, I think this is well said. One can go on debating and arguing but this does not help. One can consider the meaning when reading suttas or Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma or dhamma, reality now. In what way do what I read help me to understand this moment more and to cling less to conventioanl terms, to I and mine? James: After the Buddha became enlightened he wanted to teach the path to others to make it easier for them. He didn't want them to go through the same hardships and mistakes that he went through- just like any parent for a child. So if we accept any adulterated form of the Dhamma, no matter what form it may take, then we are ruining what he wanted to do for us. We are ruining the legacy of the Buddha. I don't want to have to try everything out all over again! Do you?? You want to become a naked ascetic eating roots and berries all over again just to prove the Buddha's words? Do you want to have endless sex in a harem just to prove the Buddha's dissatisfaction?? If we don't have something to follow than we might as all well just forget it and hope to become solitary Buddha's!! I can't believe you say it isn't important to know what exactly the Buddha taught; that we are supposed to figure it out for ourselves! In essence you are saying that the Buddha and his teaching is worthless- we might as well all start our own religions (billions and billions of them). Metta, James #132244 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:54 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > J: Really!? Who is this monk? Does he have published writings?? JK: I extract part of his principle he promotes in his website. {At Wat Na Pa Pong - north of Bangkok, with Venerable Ajarn KUKRIT SOTHIPALO as the Head of the Sangha, we strongly believe in learning, practicing and proclaiming "only from the words of the Buddha (Buddhavaccana - or Buddhawajana as we would like to use it). " This principle is not our original idea, but it is the actual teaching that came from the Buddha himself when he told the Bhikkus to listen and learn ONLY to the "Discourses uttered by the Tathagata", while at the same time NOT to listen to the "Discourses uttered by the followers." Buddhawajana, consisting of Dhamma and Discipline, is truly our one and only teacher, just like what the Buddha had instructed Bhikkus before he passed away.} http://watnapp.com/ He published a lot of books one of his project is BUDDHAWAJANA PITAKA 33 VOLUME This project we have taken the 45 Volumes of the Pali Canon and distill it down to only 33 volumes of pure Buddhawajana, excluding all the additional commentaries. He cut 227 monk precepts or disciplines to 150 monk precepts as he claimed they are original rules imposted by the Buddha. He refused to acknowledge any teaching not giving by the Buddha words directly. And he refuse to study any Abhidhamma and all commentaries. Wat Na Pa Pong used to be one branch of Acharn Cha's renounce International Wat Pa. But years ago this Wat was removed from affiliation because of above propaganda. This is one of shaking development of studying dhamma in Thailand. And this idea is quite welcome among group of educated people in Thailand. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132245 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:05 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) ptaus1 Hi Htoo, > I wrote not in Jabhuudiipa. Yes, I know, I wasn't really addressing your post, but was just wondering about the term Jambudipa. > (PS: The great rich man Jotika married to a woman from Uttarakuru.) How did he get to her? Best wishes pt #132246 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:12 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada ptaus1 Hi James, Htoo, (Phil, RobE) > James: Rob is a 'modern American guy on the Internet who writes and loves to think about things??' Are you serious?? He used to teach a highly attended Abhidhamma class. Maybe he could teach you a thing or two about paramattha dhammas?? I think there's a a bit of confusion lately about Robs on the list. I think Phil was addressing Rob E., whereas James probably had Rob M. in mind, a different Rob. There is also Rob K. who I think Htoo was recently confusing with another Rob, and there was a fourth Rob I think, Rob H. was it? I get confused... Best wishes pt #132247 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: sattawa jagkrit2012 Dear Nina > N: This Thai wording is also used in a sutta translation: In the seeing, only the seeing must be seen, in the hearing, only the hearing must be seen. > In other words, their characteristics have to be known one at a time and they should not be mixed with thinking that is accompanied by defilements. I was just wondering about the Thai sattawa. I the recordings just now this expression was used quite often. JK: Sattawa. I got it. This word is used generally in common Thai society as let it be. But the meaning is so different to the meaning in sutta. As you mention seeing is just seeing, this is not that easy to apprehend because after seeing we always think with kusala or akusala. To understand that seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing and so forth, sati-patthana must be sharply exercised to focus seeing, hearing,... as it is. This sattawa in the sutta could transform a bhiku becoming enlightenment. This, therefore, expresses the subtleness of the Buddha teaching toward understanding realties. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132248 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:31 am Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) philofillet Hi Htoo > For lay people they have to observe 5 precepts. All will accept. > What I included as 'not enough' is for most of people. If someone has enough panna he may attain enlightenment on the only basis of 5 precepts. Ok Htoo, thanks. As long as we all remain clear that this idea of celibacy for householders as condition for satipatthana is your own idea. It's a bit confusing because my impression (maybe incorrect) is that in past years your series was based on tipitika references but now there seems to be more of your ideas about "practice" which is fair enough as long as it is clear that that is what it is. Phil #132249 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:34 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > > I wrote not in Jabhuudiipa. > > Yes, I know, I wasn't really addressing your post, but was just wondering about the term Jambudipa. > > > (PS: The great rich man Jotika married to a woman from Uttarakuru.) > > How did he get to her? > > Best wishes > pt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear pt, I need to check in texts. Traditional story is that she was 'Atulakaarii' like a devii(female god/ female from deva realm) and from Northern Great Island (Uttarakuru). She could not bear the heat arised from human beings(Jabhuudiipa human beings). Cooking of food was done with 'ruby' (precious stone). King Ajjatasattu went there to housing of Jotika. There he met a very beautiful woman. First he thought it might be the wife of Jotika. But she was just a servant. When he met Atulakaarii (wife of Jotika), she wept and tear flowed from here eyes. This is not of any emotional response. But physical response to the heat of the King Ajaatasattu. When Jotika became a monk, his wife Atulakaarii was back to Uttarakuru. I do not remember who brought her in and who sent her back to her native land. I do not ponder on Mount Sineru or Mount Meru. The height is 84000 yojana (1 yojana = 13 miles or 8 miles; there is conflict on this). With Metta, Htoo Naing #132250 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:39 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi James, Htoo, (Phil, RobE) > > > James: Rob is a 'modern American guy on the Internet who writes and loves to think about things??' Are you serious?? He used to teach a highly attended Abhidhamma class. Maybe he could teach you a thing or two about paramattha dhammas?? > > > I think there's a a bit of confusion lately about Robs on the list. I think Phil was addressing Rob E., whereas James probably had Rob M. in mind, a different Rob. There is also Rob K. who I think Htoo was recently confusing with another Rob, and there was a fourth Rob I think, Rob H. was it? I get confused... > > Best wishes > pt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear pt and all, I know Rob K, Rob M, and Rob E. But I do not know Rob H. Who is he? Htoo #132251 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James >J: I can't believe you say it isn't important to know what exactly the Buddha taught; that we are supposed to figure it out for ourselves! In essence you are saying that the Buddha and his teaching is worthless- we might as well all start our own religions (billions and billions of them). Jk: I'm sorry if I misinterpret that "it isn't important to know what exactly the Buddha taught". In the opposite, it is the most important to understand the dhamma he taught. Right now, we have Tipitika, commentaries and reliable texts to study. These are the most valid teachings we have. We must get the most out of them. About this issue, I just complain that if we're only trying to argue upon what parts of Tipitika or what texts we should accept and what part is not, without thoroughly investigate the substance of each teaching, we'll definitely loose the opportunity to understand more on dhamma of the Buddha, which as Nina mentioned leads us to understand the realities as they are. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132252 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 1:00 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi James Gaargh, just lost a long post. Gist was that I am still generally speaking a friendly and loving person and if we were to get together again we would have good time I'm sure (interested in those conspiracy theory emails you send out) but currently I don't believe there isn't any possibility of ruitful discussion between someone who values Abhidhamma and someone who rejects it. I fully understand the reasons for rejecting it, fine, fair enough. But considering the group's home page description I don't feel any obligation or inclunation to discuss Dhamma with you or Thomas Law or anyone else rejects Abidhamma, cuz we just couldn't be on the same page. And yet, I love you!_(^o^)^_(^o^)^ Anyways, get accustomed to me doing my best to completely ignore your posts here as I do my best to ignore Thomas Law's and those of anyone else who firmly rjects Abhidhma. Just seems like common sense to me. Fortunately you have other friends here who see value in cross lingual talking past each other. Phil #132253 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 1:18 am Subject: Vipassanaa_032 (DT 919 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding observation on precepts there are different classes of people like monks or bhikkhus, nuns or bhikkhunii, and lay people. Still there is third class. Bhikkhuu and bhikkhunii have to abide bhikkhuu paatimokkha and bhikkhunii paatimokkha respectively. This means that they have to abide vinaya rules as laid down by the Buddha. Lay people have to abide 5 precepts if they are to be Buddhists. The third class is those people who wear robes and who are not under administration of vinaya. Some wear 'white robe'. Some wear 'brown robe'. This third class should also be free from sex. Anyway, keeping precepts is to abandon 'viitikkama kilesa'. These are the worst manifestaion of kilesa. They may manifest through bodily door or verbal door of actions. When these two kamma-door are kept free of bad-doing then the observers will like saints or pure people even though there may be plenty of kilesa in their mind. As long as kilesas can be kept only in mind and never come out as viitikkama kilesa manifesting as breaking of siila or precepts, monks can be said pure according to vinaya. Monks who keep 227 precepts are with siila-visuddhi. Lay people who keep 5 precepts are with siila-visuddhi. For full siila-visuddhi there have to be all of 1. paatimokkhasa.mvara siila (227 for monks/5 for lay people) 2. indriyasa.mvara siila (keeping 6 doors free of akusala) 3. aajiivapaarisuddhi siila (right livelihood) 4. paccayasannissita siila (avoiding misuse of things) May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-32 DT-919 #132254 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 2:30 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada truth_aerator Hello Phil, James, all, >But considering the group's home page description I don't feel any >obligation or inclunation to discuss Dhamma with you or Thomas Law or >anyone else rejects Abidhamma, cuz we just couldn't be on the same >page. And yet, I love you!_(^o^)^_(^o^)^ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue is not just Abhidhamma, (and which one?) How do one interpret it? Nowhere does canonical Abhidhamma state that one should not practice. Nowhere does it state that only ultimate realities exist. Abhidhamma doesn't just talk about what you call "ultimate realities". It also talks about puggala, there is whole book called "puggalapanatti" and there is attakari sutta in sutta pitaka. With best wishes, Alex #132255 From: "colette_aube" Date: Mon Aug 5, 2013 11:13 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada colette_aube GOOD MORNING, Well now, "... alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion." IF we actively try to BEHAVE by "suppressing" or through "suppression" then aren't we trying to control a manifested BEHAVIOR? The Objectivity is manifest the consciousness of ANATTA which NO SELF and this, THEN, does not fit into the Buddha's meanings, IMO. BY THEORY, the existence of "Mr. Spock" was based on "Mr. Spock's" ability to NOT THINK ABOUT ANATTA or NO-SELF because ANATTA is the NORM, spock DID NOT HAVE TO ACTIVELY THINK TO SUPPRESS THOUGHTS OF A "SELF" EXISTING and by having the DESIRE to SUPPRESS that which is delusional then takes the ACT, the BEHAVIOR, into a different realm of existence. for instance in order to help me, a WESTERNER, to learn better, what the meaning of CITTA is. CITTA, by definition, arises and ceases in less than the blink of an eye, by the time you or I consciously realize to "look at" the citta it has already long since expired and is NON-EXISTENT. Anatta cannot possibly exist if you are spending the time to consciously THINK to suppress DESIRE(s) Same as it ever was... toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Phil (aka Mr. Spock :-)), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Ph: Thinking about patience, sure. But then the reality will be thinking. Not patience, and ideas based on conventional notions of patience will certainly be interesting and conforting ( I was patient there! There is patience arising now!) but I don't place much value in the idea of thinking with our own ideas somehow leading to understanding of the characteristics of a parmattha dhamma. > > James: I have been following your input in this discussion about paramattha dhammas and I wasn't sure where to jump in. Here I think is the right time. I think here you are advocating a non-emotional approach to life and experiencing mind-states that is fantasy. Actually, I am reminded of Mr. Spock, the fictional alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion. He isn't enlightened you understand, but he has used his intellect and brain power to suppress emotion and detach from it. However, that causes him lots and lots of problems later down the road. > colette: alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion. #132256 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 8:43 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) ptaus1 Hi Htoo, Thanks for the extra details about Atulakari. > I need to check in texts. Thanks, but don't bother. I find the subject fascinating, but it's not important. Thanks anyway. Best wishes pt #132257 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 8:50 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada ptaus1 Hi Htoo, > I know Rob K, Rob M, and Rob E. But I do not know Rob H. Who is he? I don't know, I probably got confused with Ken H. who is a Howard but not one of the Howards we usually call Howard... Best wishes pt #132258 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 8:50 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada nichiconn dear Alex, all, > > The issue is not just Abhidhamma, (and which one?) > > How do one interpret it? Nowhere does canonical Abhidhamma state that one should not practice. Nowhere does it state that only ultimate realities exist. Abhidhamma doesn't just talk about what you call "ultimate realities". It also talks about puggala, there is whole book called "puggalapanatti" and there is attakari sutta in sutta pitaka. > The atthakatha (explantion of words) of the pali (tipitaka) helps with "interpretation". That's the tradition here. Theravada as recorded in the Paa.li / "text" / tipitaka & the so-called "Commentaries" or Explanations. Do you have to believe in heavens and raingods? No, they don't score any higher on the believability / reality scale than the idea / 'pannatti' of people / puggala. we could read thru this book together, but we'd probably have to pass on the commentaries... at least if i had to look it up. however, the so-called "Theravadin Heart Sutta", Vibhanga, seems less daunting. The point is just to be familiar with it. Most of us are far from that & try to dis/agree anyway. the argument of attakari is that the doers are dhatu, dhatu, dhatu, but that strawfolk are clearly discerned. so i read, doll. connie #132259 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi Colette, James all > Well now, "... alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion." IF we actively try to BEHAVE by "suppressing" or through "suppression" then aren't we trying to control a manifested BEHAVIOR? > colette: alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion. I can't remember Mr Spock clearly but I wonder if he had the same understanding that Mr Phil does, thanks to the Buddha. Emotions are weather events that blow through and can be understood with varying degrees of detachment. I have a dear friend who disagreees, she feels emotions are to be treasured and learned from, life's great teachers. I disagree. She is trapping herself In suffering by identifying with crapola. But as a writer I make use of them for my characters. Anyways, if Spock sees emotions and understands them wisely as passing phenomena I am happy to be compared to him. He/we are of course troubled by them at times, Panna is weak. Phil Phil #132260 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 4:50 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > > J: Really!? Who is this monk? Does he have published writings?? > > JK: I extract part of his principle he promotes in his website. > > {At Wat Na Pa Pong - north of Bangkok, with Venerable Ajarn KUKRIT SOTHIPALO as the Head of the Sangha, we strongly believe in learning, practicing and proclaiming > > "only from the words of the Buddha (Buddhavaccana - or Buddhawajana as we would like to use it). " > > This principle is not our original idea, but it is the actual teaching that came from the Buddha himself when he told the Bhikkus to listen and learn ONLY to the "Discourses uttered by the Tathagata", while at the same time NOT to listen to the "Discourses uttered by the followers." > > Buddhawajana, consisting of Dhamma and Discipline, is truly our one and only teacher, just like what the Buddha had instructed Bhikkus before he passed away.} > > http://watnapp.com/ > James: Thanks for giving me this link. I will save it and hope they have an English version soon. It seems like a really vibrant temple! > He published a lot of books one of his project is BUDDHAWAJANA PITAKA 33 VOLUME > This project we have taken the 45 Volumes of the Pali Canon and distill it down to only 33 volumes of pure Buddhawajana, excluding all the additional commentaries. > > He cut 227 monk precepts or disciplines to 150 monk precepts as he claimed they are original rules imposted by the Buddha. He refused to acknowledge any teaching not giving by the Buddha words directly. And he refuse to study any Abhidhamma and all commentaries. > > Wat Na Pa Pong used to be one branch of Acharn Cha's renounce International Wat Pa. But years ago this Wat was removed from affiliation because of above propaganda. > > This is one of shaking development of studying dhamma in Thailand. And this idea is quite welcome among group of educated people in Thailand. > James: Thank you so much for giving me this information!! You know, this summer my boyfriend and I traveled to Bangkok and surrounding areas for 10 days. It was the third time I have been to Thailand but I just love that country!! It is a country that keeps the Buddha's teachings alive and thriving. You know, the one thing I was surprised about during this current visit is the popularity of Ven. Buddhadasa. I really didn't know he was that popular in Thailand. I swear to you that every single gas station and convenience store I stopped in had several books by Buddhadasa for sale. I just kept scratching my head in wonderment. And then the final icing on the cake was when we went to Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum in the Siam Shopping District and there was a wax figure of Buddhadasa in the museum! You could get your picture taken with Buddhadasa, Lady Gaga, and Michael Jackson! Since when do meditation monks become superstars?? I think it all has to do with the culture of Thailand and the fact that Buddhadasa was a rebel. So now this new monk is a rebel. Thailand loves its rebels! (and that is why I love Thailand! :-)). > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132261 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 5:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, I'm sorry I came on too strong. I should have given you more of a chance to explain your ideas before I went on the warpath. I will respond below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > >J: I can't believe you say it isn't important to know what exactly the Buddha taught; that we are supposed to figure it out for ourselves! In essence you are saying that the Buddha and his teaching is worthless- we might as well all start our own religions (billions and billions of them). > > Jk: I'm sorry if I misinterpret that "it isn't important to know what exactly the Buddha taught". In the opposite, it is the most important to understand the dhamma he taught. James: Yes, I agree with you it is the most important to understand the Dhamma he taught. The Dhamma he taught is the most important thing, and we aspirants need to work on finding that out. Right now, we have Tipitika, commentaries and reliable texts to study. These are the most valid teachings we have. We must get the most out of them. > James: Yes, I agree that we have to work with what we are given. It is the job of every person to study the texts like a madman and then come up with an answer. What do you believe?? It isn't a quiz, it is life and death. > About this issue, I just complain that if we're only trying to argue upon what parts of Tipitika or what texts we should accept and what part is not, without thoroughly investigate the substance of each teaching, we'll definitely loose the opportunity to understand more on dhamma of the Buddha, which as Nina mentioned leads us to understand the realities as they are. > James: Okay, here you lose me. You really think that everyone should read and study every part of the Tipitaka in order to be free from suffering? In my opinion, that is too much to ask. Others, more experienced, should make the path more clear and easier for them. That is a part of personal fulfillment. > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > metta, james #132262 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 5:18 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi pt., > > I think there's a a bit of confusion lately about Robs on the list. I think Phil was addressing Rob E., whereas James probably had Rob M. in mind, a different Rob. There is also Rob K. who I think Htoo was recently confusing with another Rob, and there was a fourth Rob I think, Rob H. was it? I get confused... > > Best wishes > pt > Yes, I think you are right. I was confusing Rob E with Rob M. You see, I write to both of them frequently so I confuse the names (I am really terrible at names!) Rob E is the awesome guy who teaches acting and drama; and Rob M is the awesome guy who teaches community college classes in Abhidhamma. I can get them both confused because they are both awesome teachers. Thanks for correcting my mistake! :-) Metta, James #132263 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 5:26 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Anyways, get accustomed to me doing my best to completely ignore your posts here as I do my best to ignore Thomas Law's and those of anyone else who firmly rjects Abhidhma. Just seems like common sense to me. Fortunately you have other friends here who see value in cross lingual talking past each other. > > Phil > James: Well, I think that this is crossing the category into rudeness. I don't know who "Thomas Law" is but I do think you should treat everyone with respect- even those you disagree with. Telling someone you are going to ignore everything he or she posts is juvenile and disrespectful. Can't you stand to read an opinion contrary to your own?? Are you so delicate that you can't tolerate disagreement?? Anyway, I don't want to push you. Maybe you are just up to your limit now of contrary messages- and I can understand that!! But please don't block me out forever. That is really senseless and cruel. Metta, James #132264 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > The issue is not just Abhidhamma, (and which one?) > > How do one interpret it? Nowhere does canonical Abhidhamma state that one should not practice. Nowhere does it state that only ultimate realities exist. Abhidhamma doesn't just talk about what you call "ultimate realities". It also talks about puggala, there is whole book called "puggalapanatti" and there is attakari sutta in sutta pitaka. > James: Yes I agree with you that the "Abhidhamma Proper" has been exploited. The original Abhidhamma was all about monks recording their meditation experiences to share with other monks. Then it suddenly became about ULTIMATE REALITY. Could you image the mess if your personal diary suddenly became the guide for the whole world?? Gosh, imagine the disaster it would cause for that cute guy Orland Bloom! LOL! Mmmmm....Um..Um....:-) Anyway, the Abhidhamma started as a good thing but it was warped into a manipulative thing over time. Hey, it is important to focus on the positive! :-)) Metta, James #132265 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 6:02 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Colette, Thanks for writing to me! I appreciate your concern about this issue. I will respond in-text: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" wrote: > > > > GOOD MORNING, > James: Good Morning to you also! You know I hate it when others ignore the pleasantries of greeting another fellow human being. I am glad you understand the importance. Good morning to you, Colette... > Well now, "... alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion." IF we actively try to BEHAVE by "suppressing" or through "suppression" then aren't we trying to control a manifested BEHAVIOR? James: Yes, we are trying to do that. We are all trying to control manifested behaviors all the time. That isn't a big deal. That is survival. The Objectivity is manifest the consciousness of ANATTA which NO SELF and this, THEN, does not fit into the Buddha's meanings, IMO. James: Yeah, I hear what you are saying. The subject of consciousness and identity is truly slippery in a lot of ways. But don't we all have to work to hang on to some sort of identity?? BY THEORY, the existence of "Mr. Spock" was based on "Mr. Spock's" ability to NOT THINK ABOUT ANATTA or NO-SELF because ANATTA is the NORM, spock DID NOT HAVE TO ACTIVELY THINK TO SUPPRESS THOUGHTS OF A "SELF" EXISTING and by having the DESIRE to SUPPRESS that which is delusional James: Yeah, Spock had it so great!! It would be great to live in a culture that actively discouraged attachment to false ideas! But, them again, they would also encourage attachment to their own false ideas. There is no escape when you are part of a culture...(sad but true). > Same as it ever was... > James: Yes it is. So stop spending time feeling sorry for the situation and try to help others. That is why we are here... > toodles, > colette > Metta, James #132266 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 9:02 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > James: ....... I was surprised about during this current visit is the popularity of Ven. Buddhadasa. ........ Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum in the Siam Shopping District and there was a wax figure of Buddhadasa in the museum! You could get your picture taken with Buddhadasa, Lady Gaga, and Michael Jackson! Since when do meditation monks become superstars?? I think it all has to do with the culture of Thailand and the fact that Buddhadasa was a rebel. So now this new monk is a rebel. Thailand loves its rebels! (and that is why I love Thailand! :-)). JK: That's just a tip of the iceberg. If you stay longer, you will fascinate how diversifying of Buddhism here, the country which 90% of people are Buddhists. I think you haven't heard lately an extreme news about a monk claiming that this is his last life. People believe his attain supreme jhanna and enter arahatship. He gave a lot of meditation sessions to public including well to do people who are so generous to donate whatever beneficial to support his teaching, believing that is devoting to Buddhism. Later on the monk owned private jet !! Now he ran away to USA from arrest warrant of embezzlement. It is a sad joke but still good reminder to anyone who is interested in dhamma. Buddha had warn us long ago in Kalama sutta how to believe. But it's proofed that this is hard to fight our lobha, ditthi and mana. You can say that Thailand loves rebels because many of them are here to be loved. Metta Jagkrit #132267 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 9:04 pm Subject: edited audio discussions sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We've now uploaded the complete set of audio discussion in Thailand, Jan 2013 (Bangkok, Hua Hin, Wang Nam Kieow, Kaeng Krachaan, Ayuthaya). They can be found under this heading in the 'editing in progress' section under 'Recorded Dhamma Discussions' in www.dhammastudygroup.com (NOT this site). These are highly recommended. The last day's discussion in Aytthaya is really good - it ends with an afternoon discussion on samatha and vipassana, mostly between Lukas and A.Sujin. (Nina and anyone else, if you listened to all the earlier ones, you may like to go back to listen to the last segment on the day's cruise. We had missed this out in error earlier.) We will soon be uploading some of the recent discussions with Annie and Lan in Bkk & KK, June 2013. A wonderful set and great for those who are not familiar with Pali terms which are mostly avoided! Metta Sarah ===== #132268 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 9:15 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi James Sorry about that, but as a fellow ESL teacher I'm sure your amount of free time is also limited. I come to DSG to learn about Dhamma and a person who rejects Abhihamma cannot help me learn about Dhamma, no matter what other lovely qualitie he or she might have as a person. If it is rude and juvenile to opt not to discuss Dhamma sith such a person, so be it. Analysis of cognitive and emotional factors confirms logical consistency of this approach. Repeat. Analysis of cognitive and emotional factors confirms logical consistency of this approach. Phil #132269 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 9:21 pm Subject: Vipassanaa_033 (DT 920 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Paatimokkha sa.mvara siila is observing 227 vinaya rules for bhikkhu (male monks), observing 331 vinaya rules for bhikkhunii (female monks/ or nuns), observing 10 rules for saama.nera, and observing 5 precepts for lay people. Some observe aajiiva a.t.thamaka siila (avoiding killing, stealing, sex, lying,swearing, saying separating words, saying unfruitful words, wrong livelihood. Some observe komaara-pa~ncasiila (5 precepts with avoiding sex). Indriya sa.mvara siila is a kind of siila observing at 6 sense-doors. When va.n.na(colour) hits cakkhu-pasaada (eye-sense-base) and if there is attention (manasikaaro) there arises cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na (eye-consciousness). As soon as this consciousness arises there follows series of cittas or consciousness. All are resultant-consciousness or vipaaka cittas except manodvaara-aavajjana-citta, which is kiriya-citta or non-functioning-consciousness. Among them are javana-cittas or running-through-consciousness which are akusala or kusala in non-ariyan people. If not led by saddhaa and pannaa, these javana cittas are akusala and they may be lobha or dosa while there always is moha along with them. Saddhaa and pannaa are the most important to observe these indriya-sa.mvara siila. As soon as saddha does not arise then javana would be all akusala dhamma. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-33 DT-920 #132270 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 9:34 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >The atthakatha (explantion of words) of the pali (tipitaka) helps >with "interpretation". That's the tradition here. Theravada as >recorded in the Paa.li / "text" / tipitaka & the so-called >"Commentaries" or Explanations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Theravada commentaries are unanimous in that they all are for intentional practice. Mahasi Sayadaw was Abhidhamma master and he is all for hard effort in practice. I hate to say it, but as far as orthodox Theravada authority goes, he is far ahead of KS times ten. > Do you have to believe in heavens and raingods? No, they don't >score any higher on the believability / reality scale than the idea / >'pannatti' of people / puggala. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am speechless... almost... This is absolutely terrible and wrong statement to make. We can see people, we cannot objectively see raingods. Furthermore, raingods are not needed to explain weather phenomenon. Attakari and the burden sutta clearly states that person does exist. It would be wrong experientially and doctrinally claim that person doesn't exist. with metta, Alex #132271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 6, 2013 10:08 pm Subject: thinking and direct understanding. nilovg Dear friends, T.A.: -------- Nina. #132272 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 12:04 am Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. philofillet Dear Nina, group Thank you for the transcript. Let me highlight one bit: " What appears now is only the nimitta (sign) of a reality; it is the arising and falling away again and again of a reality. What is left is only a nimitta." Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: #132273 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 12:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > James: Okay, here you lose me. You really think that everyone should read and study every part of the Tipitaka in order to be free from suffering? In my opinion, that is too much to ask. Others, more experienced, should make the path more clear and easier for them. That is a part of personal fulfillment. JK: In my opinion, I think we should set the purpose of studying dhamma as to understand more about realities. Don't have to worry that we have to study all parts of Tipitaka, which is impossible. But every time we pick up and study any terms or passages of the teaching and their explanation can lead us to reflect the realities of them even little by little. I think it is a lot worth then learning many parts of tipitaka and understand them as features. To me study dhamma is totally different from study conventional subjects. Learning dhamma is to understand realities as they are but learning conventional subjects is to understand complex conceptual structures which lead outward from realities. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132274 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 12:59 am Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Dear Nina, group > > Thank you for the transcript. Let me highlight one bit: > > " What appears now is only the nimitta > (sign) of a reality; it is the arising and falling away again and again of a > reality. What is left is only a nimitta." > > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Friends, Nimitta is pa~n~natta. A citta arises. It falls away. Another citta arises. Citta A arises and falls away. Citta B arises while it knows citta A and again it falls away. Citta C arises while it knows citta A and citta B. At the time of arising of citta C there is no more citta A or citta B. But citta C knows them with the aid of their nimitta. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132275 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 1:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada jagkrit2012 Dear Phil > Ph: I have heard of cetasikas being " leading" , but this idea of them being "leading" to perform role of khanti is new to me. JK: Maybe the word "leading" needs to be further clarified. In paccaya, we have atipathi paccaya which refers as leading cause. There are only 4 atipathi paccaya: chanda, viriya, citta and vimangsa (panna). In the case of khanti, there can be viriya as leading cause and other cetasika like metta accompanies with another good or sopana cetasikas in the situation of patient to aversion. Or there can be metta or adosa mulacitta as leading cause accompanied by viriya and other good cetasikas. Same as in the situation of patient to attachment, viriya cetasika or alobha mulacitta can be leading cause. For patient to ignorance, viriya cetasika or vimangsa or panna cetasika can be leading cause of khanti. Therefore, the degree of different dhamma involving in khanti, which could be the leading cause can be different upon situation to situation. Anumodhana Jakrit #132276 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 7:34 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Phil. You never know what kind of response you will get. :-) I think the post to follow may be of value, if you have...a little bit of patience... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: Thinking about patience, sure. But then the reality will be thinking. The reality is still "thinking" when we "think" about the technical role of patience vis a vis cetasikas. It's all thinking unless it's direct knowledge, which comes when it comes. > Not patience, and ideas based on conventional notions of patience will certainly be interesting and conforting Not what I had in mind. The commentaries often talk about the qualities of this or that thing that arises and what is the role or 'enemies' of that quality, etc. That's more of what I had in mind, not making stuff up. > Actually in talks I hear again again Ajahn Sujin questioning whether there will be understanding of the degree that identifies namas, and that feels right to me. Our understanding is very very very weak, I think it is best to understand paramattha dhammas in theory, soundly... Keep in mind that very often A. Sujin, Nina and Sarah have emphasized that technical understanding is quite different than experiencing a dhamma and that when a dhamma does arise, it is not a question of understanding it technically but experiencing it directly. Sometimes we are advised to learn more technically, sometimes to just to understand in a less technical way, as best we can. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #132277 From: "connie" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 9:28 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada nichiconn dear Alex, > > The Theravada commentaries are unanimous in that they all are for intentional practice. Mahasi Sayadaw was Abhidhamma master and he is all for hard effort in practice. I hate to say it, but as far as orthodox Theravada authority goes, he is far ahead of KS times ten. > c: It's fairly obvious that we don't read the same texts as saying the same thing, but let's compare our ideas to the texts themselves rather than what some "other authority" (we'd probably disagree about anyway) might have said, especially if they aren't quoted. thanks. connie ps when you do what you hate, what is the motivation? just curious. #132278 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 10:34 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada truth_aerator Dear Connie, all, >A:The Theravada commentaries are unanimous in that they all are for >intentional practice. Mahasi Sayadaw was Abhidhamma master and he is >all for hard effort in practice. I hate to say it, but as far as >orthodox Theravada authority goes, he is far ahead of KS times ten. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > c: It's fairly obvious that we don't read the same texts as saying the same thing, but let's compare our ideas to the texts themselves rather than what some "other authority" (we'd probably disagree about anyway) might have said, especially if they aren't quoted. thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Visuddhimagga there are MANY instructions to do. Also in commentary on DN2 that I've read, there also were instructions on what to do. It is not just the suttas that tell us to practice, commentaries such as VsM do so as well. With best wishes, Alex #132279 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 11:25 am Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas thomaslaw03 Hi James, > "philip" wrote: > > Anyways, get accustomed to me doing my best to completely ignore your posts here as I do my best to ignore Thomas Law's and those of anyone else who firmly rjects Abhidhma. Just seems like common sense to me. Fortunately you have other friends here who see value in cross lingual talking past each other. > > Phil > ------------ > James: Well, I think that this is crossing the category into rudeness. I don't know who "Thomas Law" is but I do think you should treat everyone with respect-even those you disagree with. Telling someone you are going to ignore everything he or she posts is juvenile and disrespectful. Can't you stand to read an opinion contrary to your own?? Are you so delicate that you can't tolerate disagreement?? Anyway, I don't want to push you. Maybe you are just up to your limit now of contrary messages- and I can understand that!! But please don't block me out forever. That is really senseless and cruel. ------------ You really make a good point. I think Phil not only is juvenile and ill-mannered, but also ignorant. He obviously attaches emotionally to Abhidhamma, but forgets the main purpose of studying Dhamma, the teachings of the Buddha (which are mainly found in the four Nikayas, particularly the suttas of Samyutta Nikaya). Regards, Thomas #132280 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 1:10 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Alex. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Connie, all, > > >A:The Theravada commentaries are unanimous in that they all are for >intentional practice. Mahasi Sayadaw was Abhidhamma master and he is >all for hard effort in practice. I hate to say it, but as far as >orthodox Theravada authority goes, he is far ahead of KS times ten. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > c: It's fairly obvious that we don't read the same texts as saying the same thing, but let's compare our ideas to the texts themselves rather than what some "other authority" (we'd probably disagree about anyway) might have said, especially if they aren't quoted. thanks. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > In Visuddhimagga there are MANY instructions to do. Also in commentary on DN2 that I've read, there also were instructions on what to do. > > It is not just the suttas that tell us to practice, commentaries such as VsM do so as well. Wasted breath, Alex. There is always an explanation as to how the Vism and Anapanasati and other instructional suttas are just describing how monks can recognize dhammas when they happen to arise in the practice they already happen to be doing. "There is the case where..." There are long passages in Vism with such topics as going to the meditation teacher to be given an appropriate meditation object - even these don't convince those who don't believe in it that such a discussion is actually about meditation. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - - - #132281 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 1:10 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas kenhowardau Hi all, We could talk endlessly about who is doing the right thing on DSG and who is behaving badly. When we do so, however, we become lost in concepts. K Sujin famously talks about an ocean of concepts: a world in which nothing is ultimately true or false, and nothing is ultimately good or evil. ---- >>> Phil: <. . .> get accustomed to me doing my best to completely ignore your posts here as I do my best to ignore Thomas Law's and those of anyone else who firmly rjects Abhidhma. Just seems like common sense to me. Fortunately you have other friends here who see value in cross lingual talking past each other. ---- KH: I can see the merit in Phil's reasoning, but it is not ultimately true. It is not a paramattha dhamma. When he wrote those words he may have felt kindly towards James and Thomas - there may have been some kusala paramattha dhammas. And that's the only thing that matters. -------------- >> James: : Well, I think that this is crossing the category into rudeness. I don't know who "Thomas Law" is but I do think you should treat everyone with respect-even those you disagree with. -------------- KH: To be fair, Phil didn't say he had disrespect for anyone. But, even so, James makes a good point in favour of "cross lingual talking past each other." Therefore, we can see James sailing in one direction on the ocean of concepts and Phil sailing in the opposite direction. But ultimately what difference does it make? --------------------- > Thomas: You really make a good point. I think Phil not only is juvenile and ill-mannered, but also ignorant. ----------------- KH: Are those harsh words? They may have been written with dosa, but then again, they may have been written with adosa. And so it comes down to Abhidhamma, the only thing that really matters. Ken H #132282 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 1:52 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Robert E (and Htoo), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Alex. > <. . .> > > In Visuddhimagga there are MANY instructions to do. Also in commentary on DN2 that I've read, there also were instructions on what to do. > > > > It is not just the suttas that tell us to practice, commentaries such as VsM do so as well. > > Wasted breath, Alex. There is always an explanation as to how the Vism and Anapanasati and other instructional suttas are just describing how monks can recognize dhammas when they happen to arise in the practice they already happen to be doing. "There is the case where..." ---------------- KH: Thank you, Robert for at least acknowledging the other way of understanding the Dhamma - the way in which there is no "doing" but just conditioned dhammas rolling on. I would have preferred you to say "the daily life" of those monks instead of "the practice," but I can't have everything. :-) ------------------ > RE: There are long passages in Vism with such topics as going to the meditation teacher to be given an appropriate meditation object - even these don't convince those who don't believe in it that such a discussion is actually about meditation. ------------------ KH: Again, thank you for at least acknowledging there is another way (even though you personally can't see it). That's all I wanted Htoo to do, but apparently it was too much to ask. Ken H #132283 From: "Robert E" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 2:12 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: Again, thank you for at least acknowledging there is another way (even though you personally can't see it). That's all I wanted Htoo to do, but apparently it was too much to ask. It's not that I don't see it, Ken, but that I disagree. I do see and understand the alternate interpretation, but don't see it as being justified by either the tradition or the texts. Disagreement does not necessitate the unshakeable conviction that the person you disagree with is deluded, though I guess it may be the tendency in the case of those who adhere that strongly to their viewpoint. I consider such an unshakeable conviction as being inherently dogmatic, unless it is backed up by direct knowing. The Buddha did say not to be attached to any views, which are always something a step away from direct knowledge. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #132284 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:14 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Hi James > > Sorry about that, but as a fellow ESL teacher I'm sure your amount of free time is also limited. James: Well, if it was during the school year I might agree but since it is summer and I have two months of vacation I don't agree so much. :-)) Actually, I think all householders have a lot of free time. It just depends on how you choose to spend that free time and what health you are in. The only problem I have with my school is that they expect me to be there almost 24/7 even if I'm not doing anything. I come to DSG to learn about Dhamma and a person who rejects Abhihamma cannot help me learn about Dhamma, no matter what other lovely qualitie he or she might have as a person. James: You have been at this for years! How much more Dhamma do you have to learn?? I think you are past the learning phase and should be in the practice phase. And dealing with contrary people is a part of practice, is it not? If it is rude and juvenile to opt not to discuss Dhamma sith such a person, so be it. > James: Well, it isn't rude to choose not to discuss Dhamma with certain people, but I took offense at you naming other members as untouchables- that is why I came on so strong. Isn't that kinda rude? I mean, this isn't high school. We don't have to form clicks and then bully those outside the clicks. > Analysis of cognitive and emotional factors confirms logical consistency of this approach. Repeat. Analysis of cognitive and emotional factors confirms logical consistency of this approach. > James: Okay Mr. Spock. :-)) > Phil > Metta, James #132285 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:21 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > JK: That's just a tip of the iceberg. If you stay longer, you will fascinate how diversifying of Buddhism here, the country which 90% of people are Buddhists. I think you haven't heard lately an extreme news about a monk claiming that this is his last life. People believe his attain supreme jhanna and enter arahatship. He gave a lot of meditation sessions to public including well to do people who are so generous to donate whatever beneficial to support his teaching, believing that is devoting to Buddhism. Later on the monk owned private jet !! Now he ran away to USA from arrest warrant of embezzlement. > James: Fascinating story! Well, I blame those people stupid enough to give money to a monk! Monks are not supposed to receive cash donations and monks are not even supposed to touch money! That was a big no-no to the Buddha and I think that rule should not ever be altered, for any reason. While in Thailand I also saw monks going into 7-11 buying food and other items. What???? I don't think they get it....monks are not supposed to handle money! Metta, James #132286 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > > James: Okay, here you lose me. You really think that everyone should read and study every part of the Tipitaka in order to be free from suffering? In my opinion, that is too much to ask. Others, more experienced, should make the path more clear and easier for them. That is a part of personal fulfillment. > > JK: In my opinion, I think we should set the purpose of studying dhamma as to understand more about realities. Don't have to worry that we have to study all parts of Tipitaka, which is impossible. But every time we pick up and study any terms or passages of the teaching and their explanation can lead us to reflect the realities of them even little by little. I think it is a lot worth then learning many parts of tipitaka and understand them as features. To me study dhamma is totally different from study conventional subjects. Learning dhamma is to understand realities as they are but learning conventional subjects is to understand complex conceptual structures which lead outward from realities. > James: As I just wrote to Phil there is a time for studying and a time for practice. One shouldn't just study, study, study Dhamma and think that is practice. Eventually you have to put the books away and pay attention to your own mind to find wisdom. There is no wisdom to be found in simply reading, studying, and discussing about Dhamma. Metta, James #132287 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:41 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas buddhatrue Hi Thomas (and Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > You really make a good point. I think Phil not only is juvenile and ill-mannered, but also ignorant. James: No way! Phil is none of those things. I have met Phil in person and he is a lovely person. He gave me a place to stay and even loaned me money when I was stranded in Japan due to a typhoon in Taiwan. Phil is very dedicated to the Dhamma and very wise. He practices meditation everyday and he is generous to his wife and students. He cares about other people deeply. But I do think he sees DSG as a sanctuary of some sort and he doesn't like to see the tranquility of his sanctuary become disturbed. Hey, we have all been there. We find somewhere that we think is "my place" and we don't like interlopers to disturb what we found. But DSG isn't a sanctuary. There are no outer sanctuaries in the whole world. The only sanctuary a person can find and keep is within his/her own mind. Metta, James #132288 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Robert E, ---------- <. . .> > RE: It's not that I don't see it, Ken, but that I disagree. ---------- KH: If you say so Rob. :-) But seriously, I can't see how it is possible. Even the first glimpse of "no control" is a loka-shattering experience. :-) You don't get over it in a hurry. It might be argued that some people have had such a glimpse and still gone back to conventional ways of understanding. Perhaps Kom might be an example, I don't know. I just doubt it's possible, that's all. :-) Ken H #132289 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 4:00 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas thomaslaw03 --- "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Thomas (and Phil), > > --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > > > ... > ---- But, Hi Phil, James: Well, I think that this is crossing the category into rudeness. but I do think you should treat everyone with respect- even those you disagree with. Telling someone you are going to ignore everything he or she posts is juvenile and disrespectful. Can't you stand to read an opinion contrary to your own?? Are you so delicate that you can't tolerate disagreement?? Anyway, I don't want to push you. Maybe you are just up to your limit now of contrary messages- and I can understand that!! ... #132290 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 4:22 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas buddhatrue Hi Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: - > > But, > > Hi Phil, > > James: Well, I think that this is crossing the category into rudeness. but I do think you should treat everyone with respect- > even those you disagree with. Telling someone you are going to ignore everything he or she posts is juvenile and disrespectful. Can't you stand to read an opinion contrary to your own?? Are you so delicate that you can't tolerate disagreement?? Anyway, I don't want to push you. Maybe you are just up to your limit now of contrary messages- and I can understand that!! > James: Yes I wrote that and I am not contradicting myself. Do you think that everyone is either black or white? Do you think that everyone remains in a constant state like a permanent soul??? Just because someone is rude at some point that doesn't make him/her a "rude person". We all change and we all grow. To really judge someone you have to be with him/her for a long time and to see the big picture. I have been with Phil a long time and I see the big picture: He is a good person, a wonderful person!! So you should just drop this issue and move on. Metta, James #132291 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 4:41 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > > S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >S: We never know when understanding may arise and develop. I would have stressed that it's never 'Cula Panthaka' or anyone else who practises and it's never a matter of 'do the practice'. Understanding is a conditioned reality and when it arises it is by conditions and falls away immediately. It never arises through an idea of Someone practising. > > > > No one but the Buddha knew what would be the most helpful reminders for him at that time. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. > > Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him > *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". > > Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. > (PS: :-) Cuu.lapanthaka was *doing*. Understanding followed later. *Doing* came first, understanding followed.) .... S: If right understanding has not been accumulated over many, many lifetimes, it would be impossible to rub a cloth and become an arahat. We read that he could not remember what his brother taught him. We don't read that he had not accumulated understanding. It's like in the case of the burning of the curry or any other incident mentioned in the Theri-theragatha - the understanding arises by pakatupanissaya paccaya ( natural decisive support condition) due to accumulations at such a time. If we start rubbing white cloths or burning curries because we are told by a teacher to do so, it'll just lead to more wrong view and practise. Metta Sarah ===== #132292 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:00 pm Subject: Re: Lodewijk's speech - anusayas sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Below, a very useful passage from SPD on accumulations. Understanding accumulations helps us to develop wisdom and equanimity with respect to conditioned patterns of behaviour, not the story of a person behaving badly, or well, just accumulations of cittas performing functions, in line with conditions. And moments of understanding accumulate too, as long as we are not greedy for progress, there is progress. But the greed for progress is deeply accumulated.... ... S: Yes, great passage. When we upload some of the discussions with Annie in Kaeng Krachan, I think you'll like these a lot. In one of them, the topic of blaming oneself or others came up. Ajahn was talking about how pleasant feeling and attachment are not self, just elements conditioned to arise and how it's useless to blame anyone when there are accumulations to think in this or that way. She was stressing how when there is understanding, there are accumulations to think in another way, to appreciate that there's no one to blame, no one to behave badly and that such conditioned states are unimportant. Anyway, you'll come to it and it'll make much better sense. Thanks again for sharing such passages. Metta Sarah p.s. Hope you're having a good time with your family in Canada and that your father is doing well. ======= #132293 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_030 (DT 917 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > So for bhikkhus 4 paaraajika dhamma have to be avoided permanently and all other breakages have to be treated according to vinaya rules. If this is done his (monk) siila becomes siila-visuddhi. ... S: Only if right understanding (and the other path factors) have been sufficiently developed so that there is insight into realities. Otherwise, no purification at all. Metta Sarah ===== #132294 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:07 pm Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. philofillet Dear Htoo, group. > > Nimitta is pa~n~natta. A citta arises. It falls away. Another citta arises. Citta A arises and falls away. Citta B arises while it knows citta A and again it falls away. Citta C arises while it knows citta A and citta B. At the time of arising of citta C there is no more citta A or citta B. But citta C knows them with the aid of their nimitta. > Thank you, I think you have explaine this very clearly. I think it ia an important point because people will naturally wonder how it is possible for there to be awareness of a reaility ( parmattha dhamma) when realities rise and fall away so quickly. Thanks Phil #132295 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Manly discussion sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >S: She was saying that clinging will lead to disappointment because it's not the way we like it. We're always thinking of ourselves when actually there is no self. "Do you have friends?" she asked. "Only when thinking!" > > > > "Do you have enemies?" "Only when thinking!" > > > > "Seeing doesn't have any friends." It just performs the function of seeing. There's no 'me' there. ... > Ph: > But reading the above helps, seeing and visible object, hearing and sound, just dhammas rolling along. And the dhammas that are thinking obsessively about people and situations in a way that lead to getting upset, they will continue to arise and the dhammas that are the dosa of getting upset will continue to arise, that is accumulated to be, but more and more moments of understanding. ... S: Yes, more elements conditioned to arise, but at least there is the understanding (in theory at least), to know that the problems always come back to this citta now. ... > > So spend more time with understanding, the best friend!" > > > > Indeed! Very grateful that there is wi-fi in the house now, will be able to listen to Ajahn. .... S: That's great.... some sanity in an insane world of moha and ditthi - and again it's back to the citta now! Metta Sarah ==== #132296 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi Jagkrit, group > > JK: Maybe the word "leading" needs to be further clarified. > > In paccaya, we have atipathi paccaya which refers as leading cause. There are only 4 atipathi paccaya: chanda, viriya, citta and vimangsa (panna). Is chanda aitpathi paccaya whenever it arises? I guess not. > > Therefore, the degree of different dhamma involving in khanti, which could be the leading cause can be different upon situation to situation. > Ok, thanks. Phil #132297 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi Rob E > You never know what kind of response you will get. :-) True, and interesting. > I think the post to follow may be of value, if you have...a little bit of patience... Well, if it is Rob E expanding on Rob E's ideas about dammas, I doubt I will get very far. Nothing personal. I do a fair bit of writing about my ideas about dhammas too, though not as much as you. I consider our ideas about dhammas to be useful only to thevextent that the ideas are found in the texts. > > Keep in mind that very often A. Sujin, Nina and Sarah have emphasized that technical understanding is quite different than experiencing a dhamma and that when a dhamma does arise, it is not a question of understanding it technically but experiencing it directly. Sometimes we are advised to learn more technically, sometimes to just to understand in a less technical way, as best we can. > Ph: This doesn't make sense to me, there is a correct theoretical understanding of sny dhamma, in line with the texts. If we come up with our own understanding it will be wrong understanding in the degree to which it varies from the texts. Anyways, again, over and out, thanks. Phil #132298 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada philofillet Hi James Ok James, thanks. Catch you again if and when you get into Abhidhamma. Enjoy your chatting/duscussions with others. Phil #132299 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: >What I have been insistedly saying as *doing* is developing > samaadhi to yoke with panna. ... S: What we've been insisting on saying is that when panna develops, samadhi develops with it. Without panna, there is no bhavana, there is no samma samadhi either of the samatha or vipassana kind. Ekaggata cetasika arises with every citta. There is no need or purpose in doing or trying to concentrate because it's bound to be with an idea of Self and with attachment, not detachment or understanding. ... > S: Any reality, including any jhana factor can be the object of insight by arammana paccaya. If jhana citta or jhana factor is the object of that insight immediately prior to enlightenment, it is said to be the 'basis' for enlightenment. As we know, this is one of the 'ways' in which enlightenment occurs as described in AN 4.170. Yuganaddhasutta.m. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Yes. Even before enlightenment one who attains jhaana can do vipassanaa or satipatthana using jhaana as object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Whenever there is an idea on one 'doing' vipassana or satipatthana with jhana or any other reality as object, it is not the right understanding of vipassana or satipatthana, because it is all motivated by an idea of self. As soon as there is the idea of being able to select an object, it is not the natural development, not understanding of what appears now by conditions. ... > Sarah: > > Let's also be clear that whenever any kind of kusala arises, the citta is calm. Samatha develops with vipassana too. Panna and samadhi condition each other and arise together in the development of satipatthana. At stages of vipassana nana, they are 'yoked' together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: You do accept 'clarity at such time'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Of course, the understanding and associated factors are clear at such times. No doubt at all. This is why the samadhi is said to be at upacara degree, not by doing or trying, but because of the understanding of the realities at such a time. ... > Sarah: > > The object is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent and the citta is very calm. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Study bojjha`nga dhamma. Sati --> dhammavicaya (panna at dhammavicaya level) --> viriya --> piiti --> passaddhi --> samaadhi--> > --> upekkhaa ..... S: They arise together, experience the object together. ... > S: The texts refer to 2 kinds of jhana, arammanupanijhana and lakkhanupanijhana. The first is referring to mundane jhana and the second to the concentration at the moment of enlightenment which is equivalent in strength to apanna samadhi. This is what I was referring to with my 'shorthand'. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > If so, I accept and you also have to accept that there is jhaana in samatha and there is jhaana in vipassana( so in magaa and phala). > But mundane jhaanas outside of Buddha's teaching are not for enlightenment. Again even in Buddha's teaching if mundane jhaana (lokiya jhaana) is not for enlightenment they are va.t.ta-jhaana (that is it will go along sa.msaraa endlessly). ... S: Right, so useless as far as the path is concerned. ... > > Unlike mundane jhaana in isolation, jhaana of viva.t.ta (jhaana as a base or platform for enlightenment) is essential for enlightenment. If appanaa is possible and appanaa jhaana is attained this will help in phala-samaapatti. Otherwise ariyas who do not attain appanaa-jhaanas will not develop it again. .... S: Jhana as a base for enlightenment is not essential and most followers of the Buddha who became enlightened did so without jhana as a base. It just depends on conditions and accumulations at the time as to what object is a base for enlightenment. As you say, if jhana was not the base for enlightenment then phala-samapatti will not be possible. For all, the concentration at the time of enlightenment is of equivalent strength to apanna samadhi. For those for whom jhana was not the base, it will be equivalent in strength to 1st jhana. This is why 2 kinds of jhana are referred to. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >H: I do accept understanding. Understanding must involve in all phases and all stages. I know. But without *doing* appanaa-samaadhi will not arise automatically. > ... > S: Some of us are saying that by 'doing', there will be bhavana of any kind, no kusala of any kind - just a following of the wrong path, motivated by attachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If it is with lobha (chandaraaga) then it is akusala. But if it is with 'sati and chanda', the chanda is no more chandaraaga. So no akusala. Sati cannot arise with akusala cetasikas. If chanda is in dominent condition (adhipati paccaya) and sammaa-chanda that *doing* will not be akusala and the view will not be wrong view. If attain jhaana panna in that is jhaana-samaa-di.t.thi. ... S: Simply, whenever there is any idea of self 'doing', it is not the understanding of conditioned realities. There cannot be any development of satipatthana because there is not even pariyatti, firm, unshakeable understanding of dhammas as anatta - sacca nana. Metta Sarah ==== #132300 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Manly discussion sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > I just started editing the most recent discussions we had with Lan & Annie in KK. There was talk of unhappiness and difficulties and K.Sujin was stressing how "pa~n~naa never brings trouble. Life is easier than before (when there was no pa~n~naa)." > > > -------- > N: Yes, this is true, but it does not mean we do not have difficult times. .... S: We have difficult times, still subject to the worldly conditions, but there is the understanding that the only real problems are the thinking now with lobha, dosa and moha. We know that these are just conditioned dhammas which arise and pass away. So as you said before, we may still feel very lonely, very despondent, experience all kinds of hardships, but we know that in truth there is no self to feel lonely or despondent or experience hardships in reality. Just different moments of thinking and when there's no thinking about such issues, no friends, no enemies, no lonely 'me', at all. .... > > S: She was saying that clinging will lead to disappointment because it's not the way we like it. We're always thinking of ourselves when actually there is no self. "Do you have friends?" she asked. "Only when thinking!" > > > > "Do you have enemies?" "Only when thinking!" > > > > "Seeing doesn't have any friends." It just performs the function of seeing. There's no 'me' there. > > > ------- > N: This brings us back to what is really true. > --------- .... S: And so helpful to be reminded that seeing now is just like seeing at any other time, in any other place. - just an element which arises, experiences its object and falls away instantly. .... > > S:This is the way (by understanding) to have less attachment which will bring less sorrow or disappointment. "The right words that can bring more understanding are the best friend. > > > > So spend more time with understanding, the best friend." ... S: Like now:-) Metta Sarah ===== #132301 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 7:25 pm Subject: khanika (momentary) samadhi rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > > Sukin: > > The reason that even the hindrances or any akusala can be the object of Satipatthana is because of the superiority of this kind of understanding over that of Jhana, and this shows why *it does not need* the latter's assistance. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not completely right. At least there must be kha.nika samaadhi, which has the quality of upacaara samaadhi of jhaana. Without samaadhi panna cannot arise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I was interested to see a friend who thought that khanika samadhi was some rather high level of concentration rather than the momentary samadhi that arises all the time in whatever we are are doing. Here is my post: robertk wrote:without khanika samadhi one couldnt read a book, or even a sentence, couldnt watch tv, or tie one laces. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>Obviously your opinion is different from my interpretation of the >>>>>>text. I think that what I quoted, the rest of the Visuddhimagga, >>>>>>the Suttas, and other Theravada literature, make it clear that >>>>>>>what is required is considerably more than what is required for >>>>>>>reading a book. +++++++ Robert: Khanika has the meaning of momentary. Eggagata cetasika (concentration) arises with practically all cittas, kusala or akusala. From Bodhi's tranlsation of the Abhidhammathasangaha The life-span of a citta is termed, in the Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a temporal unit of such brief duration that, according to the commentators, in the time that it takes for lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of mind-moments can elapse. ....Within the breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters in a stream." [page 156 of CMA] Thus i think we agree that khanika samadhi is brief and it can arise with either kusala or akusala- it can be right or wrong concentration. Even in wrong concentration it can be quite strong- like a safe cracker picking a lock say. And of course the suttas are clear that one can attain while listining to Dhamma, or speaking about Dhamma, or thinking about Dhamma. On emoment can be citta with lust or anger, the next could be satipatthana with deep understanding of that moment of lust or anger. Does samadhi strengthen at the moments there is listening and considering with right view? Yes it does, but the key point is in my opinion right view. Here is a link for anyone interested on Khanika samadhi to an old discussion (its brief!) http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=312&hl=khanika #132302 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Aug 7, 2013 9:00 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > > > S: He had accumulated right understanding over countless life-times and had listened to a lot of Abhidhamma detail - so much so when conditions were right, there was sufficient wisdom for arahatship. We cannot tell from the outer appearances. As you often stress, only the Buddha has full knowledge of all asaya-anusaya (tendencies). > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >S: We never know when understanding may arise and develop. I would have stressed that it's never 'Cula Panthaka' or anyone else who practises and it's never a matter of 'do the practice'. Understanding is a conditioned reality and when it arises it is by conditions and falls away immediately. It never arises through an idea of Someone practising. > > > > > > No one but the Buddha knew what would be the most helpful reminders for him at that time. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Mahaapanthaka taught a verse to Cuu.lapanthaka. Cuu.lapanthaka could not remember what he learned. He did not have understanding. > > > > Again, the Buddha did not teach him anything except letting him > > *doing* rubbing a white cloth saying "rajo hara.nam rajo hara.nam". > > > > Cuu.lapanthaka was not taught to understand dhamma. He did not have understanding. What he did was *doing* as instructed by the Buddha. > > > (PS: :-) Cuu.lapanthaka was *doing*. Understanding followed later. *Doing* came first, understanding followed.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... > S: If right understanding has not been accumulated over many, many lifetimes, it would be impossible to rub a cloth and become an arahat. We read that he could not remember what his brother taught him. We don't read that he had not accumulated understanding. > > It's like in the case of the burning of the curry or any other incident mentioned in the Theri-theragatha - the understanding arises by pakatupanissaya paccaya ( natural decisive support condition) due to accumulations at such a time. > > If we start rubbing white cloths or burning curries because we are told by a teacher to do so, it'll just lead to more wrong view and practise. > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was not talking on accumulated understanding. Only the Buddha would know anyone's accumulations. Before 'rubbing' there was no understanding. After rubbing there arised understanding. I do not deny accumulation. But there was *doing* by Cuu.lapanthaka. And he became an arahat and understood dhammas. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132303 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 12:25 am Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Thomas & Phil) - James, what a simply lovely post!!! Thank you for this. It is a welcome breath of fresh air! With metta, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Thomas (and Phil), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > > > You really make a good point. I think Phil not only is juvenile and ill-mannered, but also ignorant. > > James: No way! Phil is none of those things. I have met Phil in person and he is a lovely person. He gave me a place to stay and even loaned me money when I was stranded in Japan due to a typhoon in Taiwan. Phil is very dedicated to the Dhamma and very wise. He practices meditation everyday and he is generous to his wife and students. He cares about other people deeply. But I do think he sees DSG as a sanctuary of some sort and he doesn't like to see the tranquility of his sanctuary become disturbed. Hey, we have all been there. We find somewhere that we think is "my place" and we don't like interlopers to disturb what we found. But DSG isn't a sanctuary. There are no outer sanctuaries in the whole world. The only sanctuary a person can find and keep is within his/her own mind. > > Metta, > James > #132304 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 12:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada jagkrit2012 Dear Phil > PH: Is chanda aitpathi paccaya whenever it arises? I guess not. JK: No, it's not. Because we have other 3 causes (viriya, citta and vimangsa) to act as atipathi paccaya. So it depends. Have you ever mad at something you think it is silly and shouldn't be mad at? That's you have chanda to get mad. Chanda cetasika performs it role as leading cause of dosa mulacitta. This is different from something really provoking you to get mad. That is dosa mulacitta performs it role as aitipathi paccaya. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132305 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 12:44 am Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. philofillet Dear group Today I select a different part of Nina's transcription: "Only seeing can see, right now. The cittas that follow cannot see, because they perform their own functions. Receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchana-citta) succeeds seeing and it performs the function of receiving the object. This is taught so that we can see that there is no self at all. No one can escape from seeing, hearing, because they are conditioned to see, to hear, Seeing is not thinking at all. This is not a matter of words, the difference should be understood." Ph: It's very interesting also to remember that seeing consciousness is dark. Seeing is dark. The only dhamma that is not dark/in the dark is visible object. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Nina. > > > > > #132306 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 1:40 am Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > > Dear group > > Today I select a different part of Nina's transcription: > > "Only seeing can see, right now. The cittas that follow cannot see, because they > perform their own functions. Receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchana-citta) > succeeds seeing and it performs the function of receiving the object. This is > taught so that we can see that there is no self at all. No one can escape from > seeing, hearing, because they are conditioned to see, to hear, Seeing is not > thinking at all. This is not a matter of words, the difference should be > understood." > > Ph: It's very interesting also to remember that seeing consciousness is dark. Seeing is dark. The only dhamma that is not dark/in the dark is visible object. > > > Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, There are two kinds of flow of citta. One is series of life-continuum (bhava`nga cittas in succession). Another one is series of cittas that take the object of present moments in five sense doors. The 6th door can take any of past, present, future, timeless dhamma. The first flow of cittas. 1. -B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B- (Bhava`nga cittas) The second flow of cittas. 2[a]. -B-B-B-*P-C-S-T-V-J-J-J-J-J-J-J-D-D-B-B-B- B= Bhava`nga citta, P= Pa~ncadvaaraavajjana , C= Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na S= Sampa.ticchana , T= Sa.mtiira.na citta , V= Vo.t.thabbana citta J= Javana cittas , D= Tadaaramma.na citta , B= Bhava`nga cittas--- The first flow is calm. The object is the object of pa.tisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness. Again it takes the object of 'past life mara.naasanna-javana-cittas'. B = Bhava`nga cittas are resultant consciousness. Bhava = life, a`nga = part, bhava`nga = part of life. So bhavanga cittas are parts of life and they are life-continuum. As they are resultant consciousness they cannot not give rise to any further results. So they are not akusala nor kusala. They are abyaakata. The second flow of cittas here 2[a] is five-sense-door-consciousness and they are viithi cittas (series of citta). The first 3 B are bhavanga cittas. As in 1 they are running with its original speed at one citta per moment. When there arises an object of 5-sense-door 3 moments pass away before viithi-cittas can arise. The 1st viithi citta is pa~ncadvaara-aavajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (P). If the object is 'visible one' next citta to arise is cakkhuvi~n~naa.na or eye-consciousness. If auditory one 'sotavinnaa.na citta' or ear-consciousness. If olfactory one 'ghaanavinnaa.na' or nose-consciousness. If gustatory one 'Jivhaa-vinnaa.na' or tongue-consciousness. If tangible one 'Kaayavinnaa.na citta' or body-consciousness. No one can see anything. No other cittas can see anything except cakkhuvinnaana-citta. S= Sampa.ticchana citta or receiving consciousness arises next T= Santiira.na citta or investigating consciousness arises next V= Vo.t.thabbana citta or determining consciousness arises next J= Javana cittas or running through consciousness arise next in 7 succession. D= Tadaaramma.na citta or ruminating consciousness arise next in 2 successions. There are viithi cittas (conscious mind) in this series. 1. P 2. C 3. S 4. T 5. V 6. JJJJJJJ 13.DD There are 14 cittas of viithi-cittas. There are 3 Bs when the object arises with 1st B. So the object last now ( 3 + 14 = 17 cittakkha.na) So at the end of 2nd D there is no more present object as visible one. This is followed by many B or bhavanga cittas. Each of these cittas has associated cetasikas working with citta. 2[b]. B-B-B*-M-J-J-J-J-J-J-J-D-D-B-B-B M= Manodvaara-aavajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) J= Javana cittas (running through consciousness) D= Tadaaramma.na cittas(ruminating consciousness) Htoo Naing #132307 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 2:26 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > RE: It's not that I don't see it, Ken, but that I disagree. > ---------- > > KH: If you say so Rob. :-) :-) Ah, the blind leading the deluded - yes, it is a wonderful system. I love it when folks who haven't experienced dhammas directly themselves tell others who haven't experienced dhammas directly that their view of how it applies to everything is the only correct view. :-) > But seriously, I can't see how it is possible. Even the first glimpse of "no control" is a loka-shattering experience. :-) You don't get over it in a hurry. Well, you won't believe me unless I believe with you on the exact right flavor of the Kool-Aid, since we must all drink together, but I do get "no-control," and I have had some earth-shattering moments of experiencing no-self, though you will probably say I was just hallucinating or something, but I just don't agree about how it applies to practice, and in my view, I am supported by the Visuddhimagga and the Satipatthana Sutta, because...well, I can read. I try not to think when I read how to re-translate what I read into terms that accord with my pre-existing Kool-Aid philosophy, I take the great sages, from the Buddha down to Buddhaghosa and others, at their word. And I think a great translator and modern commentator like Bikkhu Bodhi agrees with my view as well. Many of the great sages and scholars of Abhidhamma agree that the philosophy of arising dhammas does not contradict the clear words advocating meditation and other forms of "worldly" practice throughout the great scriptures and the tradition. So this idea that one "cannot get" no-control and believe in meditation as a central facet of the path, is just not borne out by anyone who has had high insight. It is not shared by the great sages of Buddhism, at all. And it is not even reflected in the commentaries. When I asked you some time ago for a quote showing that meditation is seen as an expression of control and self-view by the commentators, you gave me a quote about no-control and no-self that said nothing about practice or meditation. There is not a word against "conventional" practice anywhere in the scriptures, period. Nothing, nada. It is invented by the followers of K. Sujin and has no backing in scripture at all. I have great respect for the philosophy of "experience the arising dhamma now" which K. Sujin teaches so well, and for her great expertise in the knowledge of cittas, cetasikas and dhammas, but the conclusion that meditation is not a correct practice is not derived from any actual scriptural source, but by a specific interpretation of those sources that is not in the texts, including commentaries and sub-commentaries. So I will continue to learn about dhammas from this very able group, and continue to understand correctly that meditation practice and other conventional practices such as right livelihood, speech etc., in the "conventional" sense, are not in contradiction to the understanding of dhammas and of "no-control." Even if we have the intention to control "wrong speech," that intention will either be realized or not based on accumulations and conditions. I understand that. The argument is whether one should try to block such intentions as being "conventional" and controlling instead of just letting them roll, as I think we should. "No-control" is a fact; what it means for practice and the intention to "do something" is not a fact. It is what the big argument is about. > It might be argued that some people have had such a glimpse and still gone back to conventional ways of understanding. Perhaps Kom might be an example, I don't know. > > I just doubt it's possible, that's all. :-) One can understand existence in terms of the moment-to-moment arising of consciousness and its object and still understand the Buddha's teaching on volition and practice as applying to all facets of life. If we understood the full complexity of how dhammas, pannati, and nimitta all interact with citta and the arising of various volitions, we would know why the Buddha advocated both understanding of the kandhas and also the full range of conventional practices that he clearly advocated. I believe we should follow his full teaching, not just the intellectual part of it, hoping that the latter will eventually lead to a mystical experience without any effort on our part. [and by "our part," I mean the way in which various types of volitions affect the arising of various cittas, cetasikas and rupas; and by "effort," I mean the arising of cetasikas of effort and volition, etc., which may be represented by the intention to practice, etc.] Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = #132308 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 2:49 am Subject: Vipassanaa_034 (DT 921 ) htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Paatimokkha siila for bhikkhu (monks) is 227, Paatimokkha siila for bhikkhunii (nuns) is 331, Paatimokkha siila for saama.nera is 10, and paatimokkha siila for lay people is 5. Keeping these respectively wihtout indriyasa.mvara siila is not safe from breakage of paatimokkha siila. Indriyasa.mvara siila is a kind of siila that observes at six sense doors. These doors are eye door, ear door, nose door, tongue door, body door and mind door. "So cakkhunaa ruupa.m disvaa na nimittaggaahii naanubya~njanaggaahii". When a visible object is seen, form has not to be constructed and detailing has not to be done. When seen, the seen stops. If this happens observing at eye door keeps siila more pure. When an audible object is heard, no further constructions should be done and no detailing should be done. Sound is heard and stop. If there is no further thinking up then hearing stops. If this happens at ear door, observing at ear door keeps siila more pure. When an olfactory object is smelt, no further construction on smell and no further detailing on smell should be done. Smell is smelt and stop. Smelling pass away. If this happens at nose door, observing at nose door keeps siila more pure. When a gustatory object is tasted, no further construction on taste and no further detailing should be done. Tasting arises and falls away and stop. If this happens at tongue door, observing at tongue door keeps siila more pure. When a tangible object is touched, no further construction on touch and no further detailing should be done. Touching arises and falls away and stop. If this happens at body door, observing at body door keeps siila more pure. When an object appears at mind door, no further construction on thought and no further detailing should be done. Thinking arises and falls away and stop. If this happens at mind door, observing at mind door keeps siila more pure. Indriyasa.mvara siila is led by sati and pa~n~naa. If not it is broken and then it leads to breaking in paatimokkha siila. So paatimokkha siila is strengthened by indriyasa.mvara siila, which is led by sati and pa~n~naa. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing V-34 DT-921 #132309 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 2:52 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Phil. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > Ph: This doesn't make sense to me, there is a correct theoretical understanding of sny dhamma, in line with the texts. If we come up with our own understanding it will be wrong understanding in the degree to which it varies from the texts. Anyways, again, over and out, thanks. I'm not talking about 'our own understanding.' Sometimes mouthing the technical definition of something in English is educational, sometimes it actually can block understanding. Understanding is not "our own," it is just understanding. Commentators go to some trouble to describe the qualities and enemies of the cetasikas and other arising elements. Sometimes it is good to understand what those are, rather than just being content to say "X arises with Y," and leave it at that dry equation. Understanding, as one commentary discusses, that samatha is disturbed by agitation, restlessness, etc., or other such discussions of other cetasikas and their qualities, can give a more actual understanding of what those cetasikas are about than just knowing their dry function in a cursory statement. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = #132310 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 3:09 am Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. philofillet Dear Htoo Wonderful summary of citta proceses Thank you very very much. ^_^ Phil #132311 From: "Robert E" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 3:49 am Subject: Re: thinking and direct understanding. epsteinrob Hi Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Nimitta is pa~n~natta. A citta arises. It falls away. Another citta arises. Citta A arises and falls away. Citta B arises while it knows citta A and again it falls away. Citta C arises while it knows citta A and citta B. At the time of arising of citta C there is no more citta A or citta B. But citta C knows them with the aid of their nimitta. Thank you very much, Htoo. You have explained the missing link in the arising and falling away of cittas and how accumulations and other qualities are passed down from citta to citta. The idea that Citta B and C know the previous cittas and take on their understanding/qualities/accumulations through nimitta was never explained to me before, and provides the knowledge of how the fallen-away cittas can be known after they are gone. Greatly appreciated. Nimitta - the trace-image of the fallen-away dhamma - is seen to play a very central role in the complete process of both samsara and the path to awakening through this bit of information. It seems that when the nimitta that is seen by citta reflects conceptual distortion it perpetuates the path of samsara, and that when the nimitta reflects the actuality of the fallen-away dhamma it leads towards the path to awakening. Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - #132312 From: "azita" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 7:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada gazita2002 Hallo K. Jagkrit, Thank you for this, it is very helpful to be reminded that Khanti is not necessarily the conventional understanding of patience e.g. I WILL be patience re certain situations, but that it involves several cetasikas as you have mentioned. This reminder emphasizes the uncontrollability of dhammas. We cannot make patience arise, but when lobha/dosa arise there can be some understanding that that's all there is at that moment and - I think - this is a type of patience. The story that goes along with 'my situation' is merely a story, a dream and trying to have 'patience' is continuing the dream, with the possibility of making it worse because of trying to control. Please continue with your helpful posts, Jagkrit if and when you have time. Anumodana to you azita > In paccaya, we have atipathi paccaya which refers as leading cause. There are only 4 atipathi paccaya: chanda, viriya, citta and vimangsa (panna). > > In the case of khanti, there can be viriya as leading cause and other cetasika like metta accompanies with another good or sopana cetasikas in the situation of patient to aversion. Or there can be metta or adosa mulacitta as leading cause accompanied by viriya and other good cetasikas. > > Same as in the situation of patient to attachment, viriya cetasika or alobha mulacitta can be leading cause. > > For patient to ignorance, viriya cetasika or vimangsa or panna cetasika can be leading cause of khanti. > > Therefore, the degree of different dhamma involving in khanti, which could be the leading cause can be different upon situation to situation. > > Anumodhana > > Jakrit > #132313 From: "connie" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 8:21 am Subject: re: off to canada nichiconn yep, pretty much wasted breath on both sides, QuickDraw but pardon my sniping anyway... AN 6.38 or "attakaarii" - the 8th sutta.m in the devattaavaggo of 1st recital section... devataa. a type of "other"; most aspects wouldn't be visible. please - the sutta does not say people are visible, nor that they exist other than figuratively... maybe "gods" are just too "other"? supposedly, according to Nd1 282: yakkha = satta, nara, puggala, manussa. they are, in the words of the sutta we were discussing, pa~n~naayantii ... 'discerned'. True discernment might avert hysteria. We need true aim. Adjusted for windage. et, c. “abhikkanta.m, bho gotama ... pe ... ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m gatan”ti! a.t.thama.m. WE read the world wrong and say that it deceives us. - Gurudev (75th stray bird) connie #132314 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 9:26 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Robert E (and Htoo), ---------- <. . .> > RE: Ah, the blind leading the deluded - yes, it is a wonderful system. I love it when folks who haven't experienced dhammas directly themselves tell others who haven't experienced dhammas directly that their view of how it applies to everything is the only correct view. :-) ---------- KH: There is only one correct view. Yours is different from mine, and so if yours is right mine must be wrong. And if mine is right yours must be wrong. --------------- >> KH: <. . .> Even the first glimpse of "no control" is a loka-shattering experience. <. . .> > RE: Well, you won't believe me unless I believe with you on the exact right flavour of the Kool-Aid, since we must all drink together, but I do get "no-control," and I have had some earth-shattering moments of experiencing no-self, though you will probably say I was just hallucinating or something, --------------- KH: I was a meditator once, remember? I had wonderful experiences of the void. But they were *my* experiences and so, ultimately, I was hallucinating or something. ---------------------- > RE: but I just don't agree about how it applies to practice, and in my view, I am supported by the Visuddhimagga and the Satipatthana Sutta, because...well, I can read. --------------------- KH: Yes, thank you Alex. :-) We all know the superficial, worldling, interpretations of the Dhamma, thank you very much. -------------------------- > RE: When I asked you some time ago for a quote showing that meditation is seen as an expression of control and self-view by the commentators, you gave me a quote about no-control and no-self that said nothing about practice or meditation. -------------------------- KH: There are references in the Tipitaka to silabattaparamassa, but there might not be any references specifically to watching the feet while walking, or to any of the other forms of silabattaparamassa people favour these days. I don't know of any such specific references. I remember Jon told you he didn't know of any either. So there probably aren't any. (You have been given the "dogs and jackals" quote from the commentaries, but you didn't like that one.) There are no references in the Tipitka to daisy chains either, are there? So, if someone were to tell you daisy chains were the way out of samsara, what - with your insistence on negative-proving quotes - would you be able to tell them? -------------------- > RE: There is not a word against "conventional" practice anywhere in the scriptures, period. Nothing, nada. -------------------- KH: I would say *every* word was against conventional practice. The texts are all about anatta, and anatta means there are no conventional practices, or conventional things of any kind, anywhere, full stop. Never have been, and never will be. -------------------------- > RE: <. . .> So I will continue to learn about dhammas from this very able group, and continue to understand correctly that meditation practice and other conventional practices such as right livelihood, speech etc., in the "conventional" sense, are not in contradiction to the understanding of dhammas and of "no-control." -------------------------- KH: Consider Htoo as an example: his knowledge of the texts, including the Abhidhamma Pitika, is outstanding, but he does not accept anatta. So what good has his knowledge done him? I would much rather be in my position: with a deplorable ignorance of the texts, but with an acceptance of anatta. Anatta means there are dhammas and only dhammas. There is no me, there are no "my experiences" no "my practices over which there is some control." There are only dhammas, over which there is no control. Ken H #132315 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 2:15 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas thomaslaw03 --- "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > - > > > > But, > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > James: Well, I think that this is crossing the category into rudeness. but I do think you should treat everyone with respect- > > even those you disagree with. Telling someone you are going to ignore everything he or she posts is juvenile and disrespectful. Can't you stand to read an opinion contrary to your own?? Are you so delicate that you can't tolerate disagreement?? Anyway, I don't want to push you. Maybe you are just up to your limit now of contrary messages- and I can understand that!! > > > > James: Yes I wrote that and I am not contradicting myself. Do you think that everyone is either black or white? Do you think that everyone remains in a constant state like a permanent soul??? Just because someone is rude at some point that doesn't make him/her a "rude person". We all change and we all grow. To really judge someone you have to be with him/her for a long time and to see the big picture. I have been with Phil a long time and I see the big picture: He is a good person, a wonderful person!! So you should just drop this issue and move on. > > Metta, > James > OK, I will drop this issue. Regards, Thomas #132316 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma = Nikayas buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Thomas & Phil) - > > James, what a simply lovely post!!! Thank you for this. It is a welcome breath of fresh air! > Thank you! I'm glad you liked it. Now, if only I could consistently follow my own advice things would be great! ;-)) Metta, James #132317 From: "azita" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 4:32 pm Subject: Re: off to canada gazita2002 Hallo Connie, not sure who or what the wasted breath is on, however I have some thoughts about 'wasted breath' in some posts, but that's only my opinion and despite some posts being a tad abrupt I do enjoy the to-ing and fro-ing because I can learn something from almost all the posts. At least the ones I take time to read, sometimes I read a whole post and have no idea what I've read and that's NOT the fault of the poster its a problem with the reader!!!!!.......must have been something I ate :( Actually its the last comment of yours that I really like, how we read the world wrong and then say it deceives us. I interpret that as wrong view conditioning all sorts of stories -and akusala - about what is seen, heard, felt etc. Thanks patience, courage and good cheer azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > yep, pretty much wasted breath on both sides, QuickDraw but pardon my sniping anyway... > > AN 6.38 or "attakaarii" - the 8th sutta.m in the devattaavaggo of 1st recital section... devataa. a type of "other"; most aspects wouldn't be visible. please - the sutta does not say people are visible, nor that they exist other than figuratively... maybe "gods" are just too "other"? > supposedly, according to Nd1 282: yakkha = satta, nara, puggala, manussa. > they are, in the words of the sutta we were discussing, pa~n~naayantii ... 'discerned'. True discernment might avert hysteria. We need true aim. Adjusted for windage. et, > c. > > “abhikkanta.m, bho gotama ... pe ... ajjatagge paa.nupeta.m sara.na.m gatan”ti! a.t.thama.m. > > WE read the world wrong and say that it deceives us. - Gurudev (75th stray bird) > > connie > > > #132318 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 8:03 pm Subject: Hardness now as compared to awareness of hardness now ( wasRe: thinking and philofillet Dear group Here is another passage from the transcription: "Hardness is experienced by touch. Also without awareness hardness is experienced, but when there is awareness it does not change its characteristic, it is still hard, but its characteristic is understood. Pa~n~naa is very precise." Hetting back to the questions Azitaand I were going over some weeks ago Is there hardness now? Yes. Often. Is there awaremess of hardness now? No. Almost never. What's the difference between hardness now without awareness and awareness of hardness now? Sati is aware of characteristics of hardness now? Panna understands characteristis of hardness now? Can there be awareness of characteristics of hardness now without panna that understands characteristics of hardness now? Phil #132319 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 9:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > James: As I just wrote to Phil there is a time for studying and a time for practice. One shouldn't just study, study, study Dhamma and think that is practice. JK: I clearly understand your view of studying and practicing because it is generally applicable to all conventional learning. Once you gain knowledge, then you must practice by doing until you are skillful and capable of fulfilling the job. ================= > James: Eventually you have to put the books away and pay attention to your own mind to find wisdom. There is no wisdom to be found in simply reading, studying, and discussing about Dhamma. JK: Agree, dhamma is not in the books. But once we gain enough understanding from studying, that is the proximate condition of understanding each reality as it is. And this is the crucial point of contrary between dhamma and conventional learning. Conventional learning is for self improvement and self achievement. You have to demonstrate existence of completion to proof your success. But dhamma learning is for achievement of wisdom to know the ultimate realities including right view about self. It is inside knowledge of enlightenment. You need not to demonstrate anything either by words or actions. Realities always present themselves through our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. When understanding experiences those realities or dhammas as the way of development wisdom, that is patti-patti or practice in Pali which is quite different from conventional practice we understand as doing something. No need to do something alien to usual activities to develop wisdom. If one is a monk, he sits, walks and does anything as a monk does while studying and contemplating dhammas according to his daily life activities. If one is ordinary person interested in dhamma, he spends sometimes study and contemplate dhamma as well as spends his daily life as usual. If he gains enough intellectual understanding to investigate realities appearing in each moment, his wisdom develops through his normal life activities. No need to do or go to specific place to develop wisdom. There is the sutta explain how wisdom develops as follows: MN 70 PTS: M i 473 Kitagiri Sutta: At Kitagiri translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10] ................................ Even though in the beginning of the sutta, there is the translation of Pali words as training, action and practice but the rest of the sutta explains the way of develop wisdom without any specific action or practice besides process of carefully considering dhamma with chanda (desire), atidhana (willing) and viriya (exertion). This passage is an evidence showing how to attain wisdom without any conventional practice. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] edited audio discussions nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 6 aug 2013, om 13:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > We've now uploaded the complete set of audio discussion in Thailand, Jan 2013 (Bangkok, Hua Hin, Wang Nam Kieow, Kaeng Krachaan, Ayuthaya). > --------- N: Anumodana for all yuor work. I listened to the beginning of Ayuthaya and it is very good, about dhaatus. Where were these discuassions held, how was there enough time? No sightseeing? The trip must have taken time also. ------ Nina. #132321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking and direct understanding. nilovg Dear Htoo and Phil and Jagkrit (if he can add), Op 6 aug 2013, om 16:59 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > Htoo: > > Dear Friends, > > Nimitta is pa~n~natta. A citta arises. It falls away. Another citta arises. Citta A arises and falls away. Citta B arises while it knows citta A and again it falls away. Citta C arises while it knows citta A and citta B. At the time of arising of citta C there is no more citta A or citta B. But citta C knows them with the aid of their nimitta. ----- N: We had a discussion whjether or not nimitta is a concept. Kh Sujin said that there can be awareness of a nimitta, namely a nimitta of a reality. We should not think of nimitta but knowing about it helps us to understand a little about the rapidity of realities that arise and fall away. We do not try to catch the reality of the present moment. Visible object arises and falls away and then soon afterwards another visible object appears, but it seems that it lasts. In reality there are already many visible objects that arise and fall away. Nina. #132322 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 11:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Off to Canada htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > Hallo K. Jagkrit, > Thank you for this, it is very helpful to be reminded that Khanti is not necessarily the conventional understanding of patience e.g. I WILL be patience re certain situations, but that it involves several cetasikas as you have mentioned. > This reminder emphasizes the uncontrollability of dhammas. We cannot make patience arise, but when lobha/dosa arise there can be some understanding that that's all there is at that moment and - I think - this is a type of patience. > > The story that goes along with 'my situation' is merely a story, a dream and trying to have 'patience' is continuing the dream, with the possibility of making it worse because of trying to control. > > Please continue with your helpful posts, Jagkrit if and when you have time. > > Anumodana to you > azita ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, Just correcting typo's. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In paccaya, we have atipathi((( adhipati))) paccaya which refers as leading cause. There are only 4 atipathi(((adhipati))) paccaya: chanda, viriya, citta and vimangsa(((viima.msa))) (panna)(((pa~n~naa))). > > In the case of khanti, there can be viriya as leading cause and other cetasika like metta accompanies with another good or sopana(((sobhana))) cetasikas in the situation of patient to aversion. Or there can be metta or adosa mulacitta(((muulacitta))) as leading cause accompanied by viriya and other good cetasikas. > > Same as in the situation of patient to attachment, viriya cetasika or alobha mulacitta(((muulacitta))) can be leading cause. > > For patient to ignorance, viriya cetasika or vimangsa(((viima.msa))) or panna(((pa~n~naa))) cetasika can be leading cause of khanti. > > Therefore, the degree of different dhamma involving in khanti, which could be the leading cause can be different upon situation to situation. > > Anumodhana(((Anumodanaa))) > > Jakrit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: a = short vowel aa = long vowel (twice the length of short vowel) i = short vowel ii = long vowel (twice the length of short vowel) u = short vowel uu = long vowel (twice the length of short vowel) e = long vowel o = long vowel Apparently short vowels are Mettaa = 'e' here is apparently short in nature. Ottappa = 'o' here is apparently short in nature. There are 5 vagga(s) or 5 groups of consonents k kh g gh `n c ch j jh ~n .t .th .d .dh .n t th d dh n p ph b bh m Roman character 'n' has no differtentiation among 4 of 5 vagganta or the 5th of the respective group. 'm' is already differentiated. a`ngaa = part a~n~na = other a.n.navaa = ocean anna = rice (food) pannaa = pa~n~naa = pa.n.naa = ? pannarasa = 15 , aapannaa = comers sotaapannaa = (sota_flow of stream + aapannaa) pa~n~naa = wisdom pa.n.naa = leaves pannaasa = pa~n~naasa = pa.n.naasa = 50 Just for knowledge With Metta, Htoo Naing #132323 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 12:13 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada htoonaing... KH: Consider Htoo as an example: his knowledge of the texts, including the Abhidhamma Pitika, is outstanding, but he does not accept anatta. So what good has his knowledge done him? I would much rather be in my position: with a deplorable ignorance of the texts, but with an acceptance of anatta. Anatta means there are dhammas and only dhammas. There is no me, there are no "my experiences" no "my practices over which there is some control." There are only dhammas, over which there is no control. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Rob E and all, :-) I do accept 'anicca'. "Hutvaa abhaavato anicca.m". Dhamma arises. It falls away. When arises it is said to be 'hoti'. When it exists it has 'bhaava'. 'Bhavati' means 'becomes'. Becomes - arises- appears - ascend - come into existence. "Hutva" after arising, "abhaava" absence-existence, "to' so/therefore/ because of that, "anicca.m" it is 'anicca' 'impermance'. Anicca cannot be seen if dhamma is not seen. If dhamma is seen, it can be said that ruupa is seen or naama is seen. If ruupa is seen, it is to be said 'the characteristics of that particular ruupa is seen. This is seeing 'sabhaava lakkha.na'. That cannot happen without seeing ruupa in real sense (not thinking, not reasoning, not dreaming, not listening & understanding, not reading and understanding. There seem 'lost a linkage'. The Buddha did not directly teach 'anatta'. There are 4 levels. 1. akusala-siila, akusala-samaadhi, akusala-pa~n~naa(worldly wisdom of bad things like technology of atomic bomb). All these are to be reborn in catu-apaaya or 4 woeful states. 2. kaamaavacara-siila, kaamaavacara-samaadhi, kaamaavacara-pa~n~naa These are good. But these are va.t.ta-siila, va.t.ta-samaadhi, and va.t.ta-pa~n~naa. These will make further rounds in sa.msaraa. 3. mahaggata-siila, mahaggata-samaadhi, mahaggata-pa~n~naa Again, these are also vi.t.ta-siila, va.t.ta-samaadhi, va.t.ta-pa~n~naa. They will make rebirth in brahma realms. 4. lokuttara-siila, lokuttara-samaadhi, lokuttara-pa~n~naa. These are those that arise at the very time of arising of sotaapatti or sakadaagaami or anaagaami or arahatta magga and phala cittas. All magga exist just for a moment. Initial phala exist two or three moments or kha.na. Everything (sa`nkhata dhamma) lasts for a moment. So each dhamma in sa`nkhata domain is anicca. There are va.t.ta-siila, va.t.ta-samaadhi, va.t.ta-pa~n~naa. Oppose to these are viva.t.ta-siila, viva.t.ta-samaadhi, viva.t.ta-pa~n~naa. As long as there is wanting (lobha) siila or samaadhi or pa~n~naa will not work for liberation. But if 'wanting' is not lobha and it is associated with viva.t.ta-pa~n~naa then that 'wanting' is 'sammaa-chanda'. Sammaa-chanda does work. "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". With Metta, Htoo Naing #132324 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 2:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: thinking and direct understanding. philofillet Dear Nina and all others interested in nimitta I noted the Htoo said that nimitta is pannati and I thought of bringing it up but then I remembered a very good talk with Lodewijk asking about nimitta. in Bangkok, and at one point Ajahn said something about how we will not really understand what concept is until we understand reality better, so I feel it is not so important to define whether nimitta is concept or reality, it will become clearer when reality such as seeing and visible object is understood better. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom w #132325 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 2:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, Sorry, I am going to snip a lot of your post to respond to specific parts: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > Realities always present themselves through our eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. When understanding experiences those realities or dhammas as the way of development wisdom, that is patti-patti or practice in Pali which is quite different from conventional practice we understand as doing something. > James: I do not believe that the objects of the five senses (six including mind) are "realities", actually they are non-realities. They are illusions. The Buddha said that in seeing there is only the seen and in hearing there is only the heard, etc. What that means is that those things don't really exist outside of the sense bases in which to experience them. When you experience something, it is only that single experience which exists- nothing else. I guess you could say I am a bit anti-Abhidhamma. :-) > No need to do something alien to usual activities to develop wisdom. > James: Then there is no need for monks, temples, suttas, meditation, dana, or even DSG. When you think about this sentiment deeply, it should be seen as false. If it was all "business as usual" the whole world would be enlightened. > If one is a monk, he sits, walks and does anything as a monk does while studying and contemplating dhammas according to his daily life activities. > James: Does this monk also buy a private plane and fly to America to escape criminal charges?? :-) There is no "natural" state of a monk anymore than a "natural" state of a layperson. We are all different because of different karma. > If one is ordinary person interested in dhamma, he spends sometimes study and contemplate dhamma as well as spends his daily life as usual. If he gains enough intellectual understanding to investigate realities appearing in each moment, his wisdom develops through his normal life activities. No need to do or go to specific place to develop wisdom. > James: I really hate to break it to you, but you are suffering from wishful thinking. The Buddha taught that this whole world is on fire with the fire of dhukka- and it isn't going to take some intelligent thinking to get yourself out of it. It does take some extraordinary measures. > There is the sutta explain how wisdom develops as follows: > > MN 70 PTS: M i 473 > Kitagiri Sutta: At Kitagiri > > translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. > James: Gradual Training is learning the Buddha's teaching; Gradual Action is changing your lifestyle to create the conditions necessary for wisdom (i.e. five precepts, Right livelihood, etc); Gradual Practice is the practice of mindfulness as a basis for jhana. > And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? > > There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. James: Okay, Dhamma study ends here. There is no reason to keep beating a dead horse. If you know the know and understand it, it is time to move on and put it into practice. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. James Here I believe "contemplates" means Right Mindfulness. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. James: Here I believe "exertion" means striving for jhana- which is an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10] James: This means that one realize the truth of nibbana with the whole body (not just an intellectual understanding). Nibbana must be experienced with the whole body or it will fall away and not be permanent. It isn't just the physical body involved, it is also the more subtle energy bodies tied to consciousness (this would take a lot more explanation beyond the point of this post). > ................................ > > Even though in the beginning of the sutta, there is the translation of Pali words as training, action and practice but the rest of the sutta explains the way of develop wisdom without any specific action or practice besides process of carefully considering dhamma with chanda (desire), atidhana (willing) and viriya (exertion). This passage is an evidence showing how to attain wisdom without any conventional practice. > James: You must be kidding me! You have changed the whole meaning of that sutta around to where it doesn't make any sense anymore. You know, I could kill someone with desire, will power, and exertion...but that doesn't make it Dhamma. Everything should be understood in context. > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132326 From: "Robert E" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 6:13 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > KH: There is only one correct view. a. Views are not correct, period - at best they point in the right direction. Only understanding/direct knowledge is correct. Everything else is concept or nimitta at best. Concept can be pointing in the right direction, but it's not real knowing. It is very possible to have correct words and concepts and not understand them correctly, or know how to apply them correctly. When you say that momentary dhamma is uncontrolled, and therefore meditation is self-view, there are an awful lot of concepts between a and b that you're not even dealing with, and which can be correct or incorrect, even if the basic "dhamma" reality is acknowledged. But you think you're right because of the dogma you've adopted. Some of it may be right, and much of it may be misapplied, since you are attached to a particular set of thoughts about what is right and wrong, and none of them come from direct knowledge of what you are talking about. If you can't accept the idea that some of your thoughts about the implications of dhammas may be wrong, if you think everything your "group" holds as a correct concept may be off-base, then there is no way that your potentially wrong ideas can be corrected. You may all be off-base about meditation. It's not denounced in any way, shape or form in the scriptures. But you're sure you're right anyway - and that is the definition of dogmatic attachment to ideas. > Yours is different from mine, and so if yours is right mine must be wrong. And if mine is right yours must be wrong. I'm glad it's so simple for you. What if ideas a, b and d are correct as you understand them, and you are wrong about idea c, and I am right about c? You think there is only one idea, one thought, to check out, and everything else stacks up accordingly? You are merely adhering to the agreed-upon concepts of your group and falling back on their authority, not really knowing which are justified or not. > --------------- > >> KH: <. . .> Even the first glimpse of "no control" is a loka-shattering experience. <. . .> > > > RE: Well, you won't believe me unless I believe with you on the exact right flavour of the Kool-Aid, since we must all drink together, but I do get "no-control," and I have had some earth-shattering moments of experiencing no-self, though you will probably say I was just hallucinating or something, > --------------- > > KH: I was a meditator once, remember? I had wonderful experiences of the void. But they were *my* experiences and so, ultimately, I was hallucinating or something. You have no idea whether those experiences were merely "yours" or were correct. Now you have a new set of concepts by which you are judging them, and judging your new experiences. It's got a lot of dogma and prejudice in there, not based on the quality of the experiencing itself. > ---------------------- > > RE: but I just don't agree about how it applies to practice, and in my view, I am supported by the Visuddhimagga and the Satipatthana Sutta, because...well, I can read. > --------------------- > > KH: Yes, thank you Alex. :-) We all know the superficial, worldling, interpretations of the Dhamma, thank you very much. Conceptualizing that anything you don't agree with, that is not part of your favored mind-set is merely "superficial and worldling" is a guaranteed buffer against ever finding out that you are incorrect and adding your own concepts to what is being said in the scriptures. It is a cultish adherence to your own ideas about the Dhamma, and may have no relation to what the Buddha taught. If you don't believe in what is actually said, including in commentary which you say is a source of deeper knowledge, then how can you tell the difference between your local, modern interpretation and the words of the Buddha and his valid interpretors? You can't, and of course, you don't care, because the group comfort and its comforting concepts protects you against any such doubt. There is a difference between going deeper into what has been said with aid of commentaries, etc., and literally denying or contradicting the words of the scriptures, which you habitually do with great ease. "Since there are only dhammas, there must be only dhammas, and since there are only dhammas, the scriptures must be talking about only dhammas, therefore the scriptures are talking only about dhammas, no matter what they appear to be talking about." It's a self-fulfilling justification for whatever you already believe. > -------------------------- > > > > RE: When I asked you some time ago for a quote showing that meditation is seen as an expression of control and self-view by the commentators, you gave me a quote about no-control and no-self that said nothing about practice or meditation. > -------------------------- > > KH: There are references in the Tipitaka to silabattaparamassa, but there might not be any references specifically to watching the feet while walking, or to any of the other forms of silabattaparamassa people favour these days. I don't know of any such specific references. I remember Jon told you he didn't know of any either. So there probably aren't any. > > (You have been given the "dogs and jackals" quote from the commentaries, but you didn't like that one.) It contradicts the suttas most directly. If the Buddha says to be aware of body comportment in all possible positions and activities, do you think it makes sense to say "Oh no, that's not what he meant - animals have THAT kind of awareness." That is ridiculous. Animals don't have "mindful awareness." They have non-reflective immediate awareness, which they immediately forget. Mindfulness as you know involves the ability to look into something and understand it. It leads to sati sampajanna - fully and correctly knowing the nature of the object which leads to development of panna/vipassana. So yeah, sometimes the commentaries seem to have a contradictory academic interpretation of the Buddha that is clearly contradictory to what he said, and in that case I go with the Buddha. Are you a Buddhist or a Commentarian? Or you do believe that in case of a tie, the commentaries always win? If the Visudhimagga tells a story of someone going to get a meditation object from a teacher, and talks all about how the teacher chooses the correct meditation object, you don't accept that this story is about getting a meditation object? You think it's about a magical dhamma giving you a magical dhamma, or what? How do you interpret such a story? > There are no references in the Tipitaka to daisy chains either, are there? That is just stupid Ken. There are millions of references to sitting and breathing practice in the suttas, and developing jhana and practicing satipatthana in this way. This is not about inventing something that isn't there, but about you denying something that is there. > So, if someone were to tell you daisy chains were the way out of samsara, what - with your insistence on negative-proving quotes - would you be able to tell them? Again, that is a stupid level of straw man. The Buddha spoke in every other sutta about monks sitting and following the breath, practicing mindfulness. This is not something that new age idiots made up, it's in the suttas, for God's sake, and is part of the unbroken Buddhist tradition since the time of the Buddha. And you are just in denial based on your wholesale "other" interpretation. You are the one spinning daisy chains and unicorns out of nothing but pure concept. > -------------------- > > RE: There is not a word against "conventional" practice anywhere in the scriptures, period. Nothing, nada. > -------------------- > > KH: I would say *every* word was against conventional practice. The texts are all about anatta, and anatta means there are no conventional practices, or conventional things of any kind, anywhere, full stop. Never have been, and never will be. I know that is your beloved philosophy, but it's not in the suttas. The things you deny are in the suttas and you can't really live with that, so you make believe it's not there. > -------------------------- > > RE: <. . .> So I will continue to learn about dhammas from this very able group, and continue to understand correctly that meditation practice and other conventional practices such as right livelihood, speech etc., in the "conventional" sense, are not in contradiction to the understanding of dhammas and of "no-control." > -------------------------- > > KH: Consider Htoo as an example: his knowledge of the texts, including the Abhidhamma Pitika, is outstanding, but he does not accept anatta. So what good has his knowledge done him? I would not say that a person such as myself who believes in meditation based on the word of the Buddha does not accept anatta. Anatta is the reality whether meditating or not. You have your image and concept of what anatta means. That doesn't mean you know it or accept what it really is. No-self is a concept unless you've experienced it directly. > I would much rather be in my position: with a deplorable ignorance of the texts, but with an acceptance of anatta. > > Anatta means there are dhammas and only dhammas. That's your formula. It is largely unexamined what that means. "Only dhammas" does not mean "no meditation." That is the part you're inventing. > There is no me, there are no "my experiences" no "my practices over which there is some control." There are only dhammas, over which there is no control. And you have no damned idea what any of that means, or you would understand that meditation does not change any of that, but that the Buddha understood how it builds mindfulness, whether you get it or not. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #132327 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 8:52 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Robert E, I wonder if we could turn back the clock. I recently thanked you for acknowledging there was another way of understanding the Dhamma. I thought you had done that, but maybe I was mistaken. I didn't expect you to say it was better, or to say you understood it. I was just glad you at least agreed there was a fundamental difference. Since then we have gone back to our bad old ways of talking at cross purposes. Let's face it; we are never going to agree on which is right. Can't we at least admit we are talking about two *completely different* ways of understanding the Dhamma? Ken H #132328 From: "connie" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 11:43 am Subject: Re: off to canada nichiconn what's your story, Azita? ;) A story like mine should never be told (begins) Memoirs of a Geisha - the dvd; like dhammaa, that line was not in the book. What stories are worth (re)telling? connie #132329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada nilovg Dear Htoo, Op 8 aug 2013, om 16:13 heeft htoonaing@ymail.com het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha did not directly teach 'anatta'. ------ N: We read in the Samyutta Nikaaya, IV, in the beginning, the very first sutta : It is true, because anattaa means: having no owner, realitycannot be directed, it arises because of its own conditions and then falls away. ------ H: "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". ------ N: Only pa~n~naa can know whether there is a self trying, instead of citta and cetasika. We can reason about texts, but the only way to know the truth of anattaa is being aware now of seeing, attachment, etc. Can we make seeing that appears now arise? ------ Nina. #132330 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 6:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James Thank you very much for your explanation. It seems that we have different views on same aspects which are topics of debate in many posts for years from our DSG friends. It's like a person sees "6" as number six, but the other person who's upside down sees number nine. Nobody can persuade one another to believe otherwise if each other still takes one's stand. Nevertheless, the point of views is different, it is, however, still useful to take some consideration of reasonable clarification and explanation from different angle. May I as well snip your post to answer specifically. ====================== >James: I do not believe that the objects of the five senses (six including mind) are "realities", actually they are non-realities. They are illusions. The Buddha said that in seeing there is only the seen and in hearing there is only the heard, etc. What that means is that those things don't really exist outside of the sense bases in which to experience them. When you experience something, it is only that single experience which exists- nothing else. I guess you could say I am a bit anti-Abhidhamma. :-) JK: It is interesting that you said "When you experience something, it is only that single experience which exists-nothing else." This expression totally conforms with Abhidhamma. Because a citta or sense arises one at a time, seeing experiences what it sees - nothing else; same as hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. And it is true that reality is real at the moment of experiencing through six sense door. I can't say that you anti-Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma just explains more detail about cittas or senses, categories each citta as its performance and analyses each component of citta until remaining of its residual. I think it is interesting to know more about senses (or cittas in Abhidhamma) as you admit that they are realities. ======================= >JK: No need to do something alien to usual activities to develop wisdom. >James: Then there is no need for monks, temples, suttas, meditation, dana, or even DSG. JK: Aren't monks, temples, suttas, meditation, dana or DSG business as usual for some people? ======================== > James: When you think about this sentiment deeply, it should be seen as false. If it was all "business as usual" the whole world would be enlightened. JK: It is false if we think that "business as usual" without wisdom, the whole world would be enlightened. ======================== > JK: If one is a monk, he sits, walks and does anything as a monk does while studying and contemplating dhammas according to his daily life activities. > James: Does this monk also buy a private plane and fly to America to escape criminal charges?? :-) There is no "natural" state of a monk anymore than a "natural" state of a layperson. We are all different because of different karma. JK: There are a lot of good monks who follow the Buddha's teaching by performing their only 2 duties as kanta thura (studying duty) and vipassanaa thura (developing wisdom duty). This is business as usual for monks. ========================== >James: I really hate to break it to you, but you are suffering from wishful thinking. The Buddha taught that this whole world is on fire with the fire of dhukka- and it isn't going to take some intelligent thinking to get yourself out of it. It does take some extraordinary measures. JK: Maybe I need to highlight my agreement with you that only intelligent thinking is not enough to attain wisdom. But ! intelligent thinking from studying dhamma brings intellectual understanding. And intellectual understanding will bring higher wisdom to understand more toward realities as they are. This is a stage of sati-patthana which is the only path to attainment. Why needs extraordinary measures? ========================= > "Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. > James: Gradual Training is learning the Buddha's teaching; Gradual Action is changing your lifestyle to create the conditions necessary for wisdom (i.e. five precepts, Right livelihood, etc); Gradual Practice is the practice of mindfulness as a basis for jhana. JK: For my explanation: gradual training is studying, gradual action and practice is desire, willing and exertion of contemplating dhammas. This is strictly according to further explanation of this suttas which doesn't give any hint about sila or jhanna. ============================ > There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. > James Here I believe "contemplates" means Right Mindfulness. JK: I think so or it shall be sati-patthana. ============================== > Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. > James: Here I believe "exertion" means striving for jhana- which is an exertion. JK: I pretty much doubt your believe. It shall not be other thing far from contemplating dhamma (vipassana) which is cited before. ============================= > Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.[10] >James: This means that one realize the truth of nibbana with the whole body (not just an intellectual understanding). Nibbana must be experienced with the wholebody or it will fall away and not be permanent. It isn't just the physical body involved, it is also the more subtle energy bodies tied to consciousness (this would take a lot more explanation beyond the point of this post). JK: I've read in Thai commentary. Body doesn't mean "the physical body " but it refers to "namakaya" which means 4 khanddhas or aggregates; vedana, sanna, sankrara and vinnana. Therefore the meaning of "one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, see it." shall be "to realize the truth of nibbana with these 4 khanddhas and penetrate it with magga wisdom with these 4 khanddhas." Nothing to do or practice with body. ============================= >This passage is an evidence showing how to attain wisdom without any conventional practice. > James: You must be kidding me! You have changed the whole meaning of that sutta around to where it doesn't make any sense anymore. JK: I'm not kidding and I'm not the one who change the meaning of this sutta around. The explanation is strict to the wordings and reliable citation from commentary. I can not add my idea or believe into this. ============================== > James: You know, I could kill someone with desire, will power, and exertion...but that doesn't make it Dhamma. Everything should be understood in context. JK: In the opposite, contemplating dhamma (sati-patthana development) with desire (chanda), willing (adithaana) and exertion (viriya) can bring you wisdom for sure. Anumodhanaa Jagkrit #132331 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 6:08 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo & Thomas, You prefer the accounts of modern Burmese and other teachers because they accord with your views about 'Doing' and "practise' and re-introduce an idea of self into the Teachings. That's fine, but they should not be referred to as the traditional Theravada teachings. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Nikaayas are four in number. .... S: Not according to the ancient Theras. ... > Even in 6th Buddhists' Council there said 4 nikaayas. There is a sound records, CDs on Cha.t.thasa`ngaayanaa. .... S: This is the Council convened in Burma in the 1950s. The 'traditional accounts' were recited at the earlier Councils and included all 3 baskets with 5 Nikayas and ancient commentaries. This gradual decline and exclusion of those parts of the Pali Canon which don't accord with modern understanding is exactly as predicted by the Buddha. .... > > Abhidhamma does not have approval. (?? Aananda was not preached). > > But there were duties to cite "dhamma kaaya". > > Examples are Vinaya citation (Upaali and his disciples),Diigha nikaaya (Aanadaa and his disciples), etc. > > A.t.thasaalinii is commentary. > > There are many abhidhamma-things in many of sutta.ms. I think no sutta.m is free of abhidhamma. > > The Buddha's word on His Dhamma can be seen in "Diigha nikaaya_Mahaa vagga_Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m". It is 'Dhamma & Vinaya'. But Buddha's disciples at 1st Council made 'Vinaya citation' first. > > I think many people talk on abhidhamma. But their abhidhamma come from "abhidhammatthasangaha and visuddhimagga". Both are atthakathaa (commentary). > > Regarding Nikaaya, vinaya, abhidhamma and other dhammas were put into Kuddakaa Nikaaya, the 5th Nikaaya. .... S: I have read nothing in the ancient commentaries which is not in conformity with the Buddha's word in the Tipitaka itself. Your comments and lack of appreciation of the Atthasalini, Vism and Abhidhammatthasangaha suggest a lack of confidence in the Teaching of the Buddha, I believe. As Jagkrit said, there's no point in discussing this issue further. However, let's be clear that the Traditional Teachings are those approved by the ancient Councils and found in the Pali Canon including the ancient commentaries, not modern commentaries. Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." Metta Sarah ===== #132332 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo (& Thomas), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > But abhidhamma is there almost all sutta.ms. When the Buddha was dying Aanandaa was restless on near disappearance of The Teacher (Buddha). The Buddha said "Dhamma & Vinaya" will be your teacher. No mention of abhidhamma. I know in dhamma there also are abhidhamma. .... S: I've already quoted the commentary to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta which clarifies that Dhamma Vinaya refers to the 3 baskets. You may prefer your own personal commentary to this one, approved and accepted by the ancient arahat Theras, but please don't suggest this is the Traditional view. ... > When a.t.thakathaa explain what sutta.m say it is good. But we have to stick to original one. ... S: Again it depends whether you prefer to accept your own version or that accepted by the arahats of old. ... > > Finally, it is "the essence of teachings of the Buddha" that matters. Anuruddhaa well summarized abhidhamma and Buddhaghosa also wrote on visuddhimagga. They tried to express "the essence of the Buddha's teaching". There are new 'words' in these texts. Example: paramattha dhamma. .... S: Paramattha dhamma refers to citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Can you point to any Buddhist text at all which is not talking about citta, cetasika, rupa or nibbana? As we read in the first chapter in the Kathavatthu: ***** ".....Even in such expressions as "there is the person who works for his own good"(DN iii, 232), (MNi, 341, 411), (AN ii, 95) and so on, there is no such person as bodily and mental aggregates, known in their specific and general senses. Given bodily and mental aggregates, it is customary to say such and such a name, a family. " "Hereon it was also said by the Exalted One: "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, terms of speech, designations in common use in the world." (Dialogues, i 263). What is meant here is: even without reference to bodily and mental aggregates the term "person" is used to denote a popular convention in both its specific and its general sense." Metta Sarah ===== #132333 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 6:31 pm Subject: Re: Vipassanaa_031 (DT 918 ) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Some may deny that 5 precepts is not a requisite to attain sotaapanna-ship. There are the caes that some murderers became sotapanna even after killing many human beings (official professional killer of a king and has to kill those who got dead sentence). Some fishermen became a sotapanna (after killing and selling many many fish). Some drunkard even became arahat (Santati Minister). ... S: Because of the accumulated understanding. Only a sotapanna has purified virtue through such understanding. Someone may be very virtuous in this or other life-times, but unless understanding has been developed to the stage of sotapanna, we don't know about the future. Metta Sarah ===== #132334 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 10:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > Thank you very much for your explanation. It seems that we have different views on same aspects which are topics of debate in many posts for years from our DSG friends. > James: Yes, yes. These same issues have been debated hotly on DSG for years. Sorry I don't have anything very unique or exciting to offer- just the same old same old. :-)) > It's like a person sees "6" as number six, but the other person who's upside down sees number nine. Nobody can persuade one another to believe otherwise if each other still takes one's stand. James: Very good analogy! I like it! Now the question is: which one of us is upside down?? :-) Nevertheless, the point of views is different, it is, however, still useful to take some consideration of reasonable clarification and explanation from different angle. May I as well snip your post to answer specifically. > James: I am going to snip a very large portion also, to get to the heart of the matter. > > JK: I've read in Thai commentary. James: Oh no, not commentary!! To me, commentary is a dirty word. Why should I believe any ancient commentaries anymore than I should believe your or my commentary. After all, those who wrote the commentaries where not enlightened monks. They were scholar monks with a specific agenda to support- the value of Dhamma Study. Body doesn't mean "the physical body " but it refers to "namakaya" which means 4 khanddhas or aggregates; vedana, sanna, sankrara and vinnana. Therefore the meaning of "one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, see it." shall be "to realize the truth of nibbana with these 4 khanddhas and penetrate it with magga wisdom with these 4 khanddhas." Nothing to do or practice with body. > James: If the Buddha had meant aggregates he would have said aggregates (just as he did in other suttas). In this sutta the Buddha doesn't say aggregates, he says body. So, if the Buddha said body he means body! (BTW, the ancient commentaries really love to twist that word "body" around a lot. No matter where it shows up, the commentaries usually define it as "mind". Very curious...) > ============================= > > >This passage is an evidence showing how to attain wisdom without any > conventional practice. > > > James: You must be kidding me! You have changed the whole meaning of that sutta around to where it doesn't make any sense anymore. > > JK: I'm not kidding and I'm not the one who change the meaning of this sutta around. The explanation is strict to the wordings and reliable citation from commentary. I can not add my idea or believe into this. > James: Of course you should add your own ideas or beliefs into this! Who wrote those commentaries?? Do you have faith in the Buddha or some uptight scholar monks with too much time on their hands?? > ============================== > > > James: You know, I could kill someone with desire, will power, and exertion...but that doesn't make it Dhamma. Everything should be understood in context. > > JK: In the opposite, contemplating dhamma (sati-patthana development) with desire (chanda), willing (adithaana) and exertion (viriya) can bring you wisdom for sure. > James: Contemplation of anything with desire, will power, and exertion, even Dhamma, is only bound to bring me a headache! Not wisdom. > Anumodhanaa > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Manly discussion nilovg Dear pt (and Htoo), Op 5 aug 2013, om 14:53 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > In that sense I was also wondering - say in terms of the earth kasina, there would be considering everything in terms of the earth element - which makes sense since pretty much everything out there depends on the earth element. But what about the color kasinas for example? What does the blue kasina for example has to do with the world? It's not like there's a "blue element" in the same sense as there is the 4 elements. ------ N: The Vis. V, 13, gives examples. There is more to it. Red colour stands for blood, blue for hairs, yellow or white for bones? I have read about this somewhere but I know nothing about jhaana. Perhaps Htoo knows more? ------- Nina. #132336 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Manly discussion htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt (and Htoo), > Op 5 aug 2013, om 14:53 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > > > In that sense I was also wondering - say in terms of the earth kasina, there would be considering everything in terms of the earth element - which makes sense since pretty much everything out there depends on the earth element. But what about the color kasinas for example? What does the blue kasina for example has to do with the world? It's not like there's a "blue element" in the same sense as there is the 4 elements. > ------ > N: The Vis. V, 13, gives examples. There is more to it. Red colour stands for blood, blue for hairs, yellow or white for bones? I have read about this somewhere but I know nothing about jhaana. Perhaps Htoo knows more? > ------- > Nina. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, pt and all, Kasi.na-kamma.t.thaanas are for basis of arahats who attain arahatship with cha.laabhi~n~naa (6 abhi-nanas). 1. siila for tevijja(pubbenivaasaanussati, dibbacakkhu, aasavakkhaya) 2. samaadhi for ch.laabhi~n~naa arahats 3. pa~n~naa for pa.tisambhidaapatta arahats For abhinna all jhaanas (4 ruupas and 4 aruupas) are required and special training on jhaana-playing. Examples for jhaana-play 1. enter 1st jhaana, exit it and enter 2nd and so on up-ping 2. enter 8th jhaana, exit it and enter 7th and so on down-ing 3. enter 1st jhaana, exit it and enter 3rd, 5th, 7th skipping up 4. enter 8th jhaana, exit it and enter 6th, 4th, 2nd skipping down a. enter 1st jhaana(pathavii), exit it and enter 1st jhaana(tejo) and so on in serial from 1st kasi.na to 10th kasi.na (up-ping) b. enter 1st jhaana(aakaasa), exit it and enter 1st jhaana(aloka) and so on in serial from 10th back to 1st kasi.na (down-ing) c. enter 1st jhaana(pathavii) then 'aapo' and so on skipping up d. enter 10th kasi.na 1st jhaana then lohita(red) and so on skipping back Foreward and backward, up and down, skipping and so on so that skill is obtained (vasiibhaava). 1. pathavi is for 'walking on' like sky-walk, water-walk 2. tejo is for light, fire, (dibbacakkhu or deva-eye) 3. aapo is for sinking, shaking things like earthquakes(like Mahaa-Moggallaana does in deva realm) 4. vayo is for wind, storm, movement, dibbasota or deva-ear etc 5. niila (brown/blue/blue-brown/dark-green etc) for darkness (as in case of Yasa and his father could not see each other even when they sat very close_dark barrier) 6. piita (golden or yellow) light, dibbacakkhu 7. lohita (red) light, dibbacakkhu 8. odaata (white) light, dibbacakkhu 9. aloka (light) for dibbacakkhu, light 10.aakaasa(space) for passing through walls, mountain In viithi after palying jhaana, the wish is directed and enter 4th ruupa jhaana. There is only 1 jhaana-javana and as soon as it arises the wish happen as long as it originally set up. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132337 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:23 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... Sarah: Dear Htoo & Thomas, You prefer the accounts of modern Burmese and other teachers because they accord with your views about 'Doing' and "practise' and re-introduce an idea of self into the Teachings. That's fine, but they should not be referred to as the traditional Theravada teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is wrong to say like that. Tipi.taka records (in palm-leaves one set) are still there in Srilanka and Myanmar. They are all the same. There are many copies as palm-leaves. And all these are from 4th Buddhists' Council. No change. And this was passed to 5th Buddhists' Council. All scripts are the same as 4th but they were put on Stone slabs. There are a total of 733 stone slabs. 729 are pure tipi.taka. 1 slab is history-thing and 3 slabs are lists of offerings by King Mindon. 1. vinaya 111 slabs 2. abhidhamma 208 slabs 3. diigha 36 slabs 4. majjhima 62 slabs 5. samyutta 65 slabs 6. a`nguttara 78 slabs 7. kuddaka 169 slabs --------------- Total 729 slabs 6th Buddhists' Council is just paper prints of these. I think you and the group (DSG) once visited the place. These are tipi.taka. Close to Kuthodaw Pagoda where Tipi.taka stone slabs exist is Sandamuni Pagoda. In there there also are stone slabs. They are a.t.thakathaa. One Monk made a CD with photographs of these stone slabs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" wrote: > > > Nikaayas are four in number. .... S: Not according to the ancient Theras. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 4 nikaayas. Diigha, Majjhima, Samyutta, and A`nguttara. Kuddaka = kudda + ka Kudda means small. All small texts are put into Kuddaka nikaaya. In Kuddaka Nikaaya are 1. kuddakapaa.tha 2. dhammapada 3. udaana 4. itivuttaka 5. suttanipaata 6. vimaanavatthu 7. petavatthu 8. theragaathaa 9. theriigaathaa 10. jaataka 11. niddesa 12. pa.tisambhidaamagga 13. apadaana 14. buddhava.msa 15. cariyaapitaka These are original texts. 16. suttasa`ngaha 17. milindapa~nhaa 18. netti 19. pe.takopadesa These 4 texts did not exist in 3rd Buddhists' Council. But they are assumed as 'Paa.li' or are 'like the words of the Buddha' and they are included in Kuddaka Nikaaya. So 4 nikaayas are pure teaching of the Buddha. The Buddha did not allowed to translate into Sanscript and laid down a vinaya not to do it. But after the Buddha some Bramin monks translated them into Sanscript. These were again translated into Chinese. That is why Mahaayaana are alike Theravadan especially in 4 nikaayas. Abhidhamma was recorded (orally by citation) by Mahaakassapa, Aanandaa, Upaali, Anuruddhaa(of Buddha's time), and many Theras (elderly) at 1st Buddhists' Council. The recorded abhidhammaa was not the direct teachings of the Buddha. But they are of disciples of Saariputta(who already passed away before 1st council and even before the Buddha). Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha was written round about 900 years after the Buddha by Anuruddhaa (of Srilanka). A.t.thakathaa were written by 1. Buddhaghosa (ghosa = voice) 2. Buddhadatta 3. Dhammapaala No one make any adding or deletion or correction to Paa.li and A.t.thakathaa. 6th Council was attended by 2473 Myanmar monks and 144 monks from Srilanka, Thai, Laos, and Kambodia (Kampucher). Also Mahaayaana monks were allowed as observers. There were 5 sections over 9 months (citation). 1st Vinaya (president Nyaungyan Sayadaw) 2nd Diigha & Samyutta (president Masoeyein Sayadaw) 3rd A`nguttara (Kambodia and Laos as presidents) 4th Pa.t.thaana & Kuddaka 15 texts( Thai Sangaraaja as president) 5th all other 6 texts of abhidhamma (Srilanka as president) There were no differences among these 5 countries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Even in 6th Buddhists' Council there said 4 nikaayas. There is a sound records, CDs on Cha.t.thasa`ngaayanaa. .... S: This is the Council convened in Burma in the 1950s. The 'traditional accounts' were recited at the earlier Councils and included all 3 baskets with 5 Nikayas and ancient commentaries. This gradual decline and exclusion of those parts of the Pali Canon which don't accord with modern understanding is exactly as predicted by the Buddha. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You could not see what I mean. Please see above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Abhidhamma does not have approval. (?? Aananda was not preached). > > > > But there were duties to cite "dhamma kaaya". > > > > Examples are Vinaya citation (Upaali and his disciples),Diigha nikaaya (Aanadaa and his disciples), etc. > > > > A.t.thasaalinii is commentary. > > > > There are many abhidhamma-things in many of sutta.ms. I think no sutta.m is free of abhidhamma. > > > > The Buddha's word on His Dhamma can be seen in "Diigha nikaaya_Mahaa vagga_Mahaaparinibbaana sutta.m". It is 'Dhamma & Vinaya'. But Buddha's disciples at 1st Council made 'Vinaya citation' first. > > > > I think many people talk on abhidhamma. But their abhidhamma come from "abhidhammatthasangaha and visuddhimagga". Both are atthakathaa (commentary). > > > > Regarding Nikaaya, vinaya, abhidhamma and other dhammas were put into Kuddakaa Nikaaya, the 5th Nikaaya. .... S: I have read nothing in the ancient commentaries which is not in conformity with the Buddha's word in the Tipitaka itself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What the Buddha taught were 1. Dhamma & Vinaya or Tipi.taka ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Your comments and lack of appreciation of the Atthasalini, Vism and Abhidhammatthasangaha suggest a lack of confidence in the Teaching of the Buddha, I believe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Abhidhamma is more than 'abhidammatthasa`ngaha'. Visuddhimagga is not all about Abhidhamma. All are A.t.thakathaa. All of these what you said 'Atthasalini, Vism and Abhidhammatthasangaha' are still there in Myanmar in Sandamuni Pagoda's stone slabs near Mandalay Mountain. A.t.thakathaa are valued by all Theravadan Buddhists in Myanmar. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: As Jagkrit said, there's no point in discussing this issue further. However, let's be clear that the Traditional Teachings are those approved by the ancient Councils and found in the Pali Canon including the ancient commentaries, not modern commentaries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just wrote on history. I do not write on modern commentaries. And there is no modern 'A.t.thakathaa'. There are 1. Paa.li (original words of the Buddha) 2. A.t.thakathaa (explanations on Paa.li) "A.t.thakathaa" or commentaries were even made by Saariputta and Buddha approved. 3. .Tiikaa (old tiikaa and new tiikaa are there) "Abhidhammatthavibhaavanii" is a .tiikaa (subcommentary) and in that .tiikaa there are 245 wrong facts. 4. Anu.tiikaa (sub-subcommentaries) 5. Madhu.tiikaa (smaller ones) 6. Ga.n.thi (even smaller ones) 7. Nissaya (just translation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Here's a quote by I.B.Horner, which I've given before, from her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated,and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." Metta Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just presented history. Paa.li and A.t.thakathaa are very much valued by all Theravadan Buddhists monks and many lay people. There are many lay people who passed Abhidhamma, Nikaayas, and Vinaya in line with Paa.li and A.t.thakathaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132338 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:32 am Subject: Summary of cittas htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta knows the object. There are akusala cittas, kusala cittas, vipaaka cittas, and kiriyaa cittas. Vipaaka cittas and kiriyaa cittas are also called abyaakata cittas. Summary of cittas 1. lokuttaraa cittas (a) lokuttaraa kusala cittas 1. sotaapatti magga citta 2. sakadaagaami magga citta 3. anaagaami magga citta 4. arahatta magga citta Each lokuttaraa citta gives rise to resultant cittas or vipaaka citta. They are (b) lokuttaraa phala cittas 1. sotaapatti phala citta 2. sakadaagaami phala citta 3. anaagaami phala citta 4. arahatta phala citta 2. Mahaggata cittas (aruupa cittas and ruupa cittas) A. Aruupa cittas or aruupaavacara cittas (a) Aruupa kusala cittas 1. akaasana~ncaayaatana kusala citta (1st aruupa kusala citta) 2. vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatana kusala citta (2nd aruupa kusala citta) 3. aaki~nci~n~naayatana kusala citta (3rd aruupa kusala citta) 4. nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatana kusala citta(4th aruupa kusala citta) (b) Aruupa vipaaka cittas (4) (c) Aruupa kiriyaa cittas (4) like aruupa-kusala-cittas but arise in arahatta phala.t.thaana puggalaa. B. Ruupa cittas or ruupaavacara cittas (a) Ruupa kusala cittas or ruupaavacara kusala cittas 1. ruupaavacara 1st jhaana kusala citta (vitakka, vicaara, piiti, sukha, ekaggataa) 2. ruupaavacara 2nd jhaana kusala citta (vicaara, piiti, sukha, ekaggataa) 3. ruupaavacara 3rd jhaana kusala citta (piiti, sukha, ekaggataa) 4. ruupaavacara 4th jhaana kusala citta (sukha, ekaggataa) 5. ruupaavacara 5th jhaana kusala citta (upekkhaa, ekaggataa) (b) Ruupa vipaaka cittas or ruupaavacara vipaaka cittas (5) The resultant cittas of ruupaavacara kusala cittas. (c) Ruupa kiriyaa cittas or ruupaavacara kiriyaa cittas (5) These are like ruupaavacara-kusala-cittas but arise in arahatta-phala.t.thaana-puggalaa. Lokuttaraa cittas ( kusala 4 and phala 4 = total 8) Mahaggata cittas (aruupaavacara 12 + ruupaavacara 15 = total 27 ) A. aruupaavacara cittas (kusala 4, vipaaka 4, kiriyaa 4 = total 12 ) B. ruupaavacara cittas (kusala 5, vipaaka 5, kiriyaa 5 = total 15 ) 3. Kaamaavacara cittas (kusala/&akusala, vipaaka, kiriyaa) Akusala is worst. So it will come later. Kaamasobhana cittas (kusala 8 + vipaaka 8 + kiriyaa 8 = 24) A. Kaamaavacara mahaakusala cittas (8) somanassa 4 and upekkhaa 4 = 8 with pa~n~naa(~naa.na) and without (2+2 and 2+2 = 8) with sa`nkhaara(sasa`nkhaarika) and without(asa`nkhaarika) (1+1 and 1+1 [+] 1+1 and 1+1 = 8) Mahaa because there are greater number of cittas as compared to aruupa kusala and ruupa kusala. B. Kaamaavacara mahaavipaaka cittas (8) The resultant cittas of mahaakusala cittas. C. Kaamaavacara mahaakiriyaa cittas (8) The same as mahaakusala cittas but they arise in arahatta-phala.t.thaana puggalaa. Asobhana cittas (akusala cittas and ahetuka cittas) 1.(no kusala) instead there akusala cittas (12) 2. ahetuka vipaaka cittas (kusala-vipaaka 8 + akusala-vipaaka 7 = 15) 3. ahetuka kiriyaa cittas (3) Akusala 12 + ahetuka-vipaaka 15 + ahetuka-kiriyaa 3 = 30 asobhana 1. akusala cittas a) lobha-muula cittas (8) somanassa 4 + upekkhaa 4 = 8 with di.t.thi and without di.t.thi (2+2) + (2+2) = 8 with sa`nkhaara(sasa`nkhaarika) and without(asa`nkhaarika) (1+1) + (1+1) and (1+1) + (1+1) = 8 b) dosa-muula cittas (2) asa`nkhaarika and sasa`nkhaarika c) momuuha (moha-muula) cittas (2) uddhacca citta and vicikicchaa citta lobha 8 + dosa 2 + moha 2 = 12 akusala cittas 2. ahetuka-vipaaka cittas ( 8 + 7 = 15 ahetuka-vipaaka cittas) A. ahetuka-kusalavipaaka cittas (all are vipaaka) (8) 1. cakkhuvi~n~naa.na citta 2. sotavi~n~naa.na citta 3. ghaanavi~n~naa.na citta 4. jivhaavi~n~naa.na citta 5. kaayavi~n~naana citta 6. sampa.ticchana citta 7. santiira.na citta (upekkhaa) 8. santiira.na citta (somanassa) B. Ahetuka-akusalavipaaka cittas (all are vipaaka)(7) 1. cvc 2. svc 3. gvc 4. jvc 5. kvc 6. spc 7. stc 3. ahetuka kiriyaa cittas (3) 1. pa~ncadvaaraavajjana citta 2. manodvaaraavajjana citta 3. hasituppaada citta 1. lokuttaraa cittas 8 2. mahaggata cittas 27 ( 12 aruupaavacara + 15 ruupaavacara) 3. kaamaavacara cittas 54 ------------------------- In total 89 cittas With Metta, Htoo Naing #132339 From: "Robert E" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:29 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada epsteinrob Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > I wonder if we could turn back the clock. I recently thanked you for acknowledging there was another way of understanding the Dhamma. I thought you had done that, but maybe I was mistaken. > > I didn't expect you to say it was better, or to say you understood it. I was just glad you at least agreed there was a fundamental difference. > > Since then we have gone back to our bad old ways of talking at cross purposes. > > Let's face it; we are never going to agree on which is right. Can't we at least admit we are talking about two *completely different* ways of understanding the Dhamma? Why would that be satisfying to you? Isn't it better to say that I agree about dhammas but not about how that knowledge applies to conventional activities? I know that's kind of upsetting when you think they are mutually exclusive, but that's what I actually think. Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #132340 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:53 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, Sarah, and all, Having read carefully what Htoo has explained about the Pali literature, I have to say what Htoo has clarified is very traditional Theravada accounts. What the Buddha taught were Dhamma and Vinaya. The first and second councils did not have the extant Abhidhamma pitaka. Thanks very much to Htoo for (his or her) the detailed explanation. It is useful for all who are interested in studies in Pali tradition. Sincerely, Thomas #132341 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, and all, ---Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > Op 8 aug 2013, om 16:13 heeft htoonaing@... het volgende geschreven: > > The Buddha did not directly teach 'anatta'. > ------ > N: We read in the Samyutta Nikaaya, IV, in the beginning, the very first sutta : > It is true, because anattaa means: having no owner, realitycannot be directed, it arises because of its own conditions and then falls away. > ------ > H: "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". > ------ > N: Only pa~n~naa can know whether there is a self trying, instead of citta and cetasika. We can reason about texts, but the only way to know the truth of anattaa is being aware now of seeing, attachment, etc. Can we make seeing that appears now arise? > ------ Thomas: Various terms for the notion of not-self (anatta) are found in the SN suttas (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 57-60): 1. Not belonging to self (anattaniya); and neither self nor belonging to self (anatta-anattaniya). 2. Not belonging to you (na tumhaaka.m). 3. Self-conceit/pride (asmi-maana), self-excitement/impulse (asmi-chanda), and self-bias (asmi-anusaya). 4. This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self (netam mama, neso ham asmi, na meso att ti) (This: Referring to each of the five aggregates and the sense spheres) 5. One does not regard (na samanupassati) material form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessing material form (ruupavanta.m attaana.m), or material form as being in self (attani ruupa.m), or self as being in material form (ruupasmi.m attaana.m). (and similarly for feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness) This is not self, this is not other than self, neither is self in this nor this in self (Samyukta-gama version only). 6. Freedom from the view superior am I (seyyo ham asmi), equal am I (sadiso ham asmi), or inferior am I (hiino ham asmi). These various expressions may be useful for better understanding of not-self, anatta. Regards, Thomas #132342 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada thomaslaw03 Resending: > Dear Nina, and all, > > ---Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo, > > Op 8 aug 2013, om 16:13 heeft htoonaing@ het volgende geschreven: > > > > The Buddha did not directly teach 'anatta'. > > ------ > > N: We read in the Samyutta Nikaaya, IV, in the beginning, the very first sutta : > > It is true, because anattaa means: having no owner, realitycannot be directed, it arises because of its own conditions and then falls away. > > ------ > > H: "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". > > ------ > > N: Only pa~n~naa can know whether there is a self trying, instead of citta and cetasika. We can reason about texts, but the only way to know the truth of anattaa is being aware now of seeing, attachment, etc. Can we make seeing that appears now arise? > > ------ > Thomas: Various terms for the notion of not-self (anatta) are found in the SN suttas (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 57-60): 1. `Not belonging to self' (anattaniya); and `neither self nor belonging to self' (anatta-anattaniya). 2. `Not belonging to you' (na tumhaaka.m). 3. `Self-conceit/pride' (asmi-maana), `self-excitement/impulse' (asmi-chanda), and `self-bias' (asmi-anusaya). 4. `This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self' (n'etam mama, n'eso 'ham asmi, na m'eso attaa ti) (`This': Referring to each of the five aggregates and the sense spheres) 5. One does not regard (na samanupassati) material form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessing material form (ruupavanta.m attaana.m), or material form as being in self (attani ruupa.m), or self as being in material form (ruupasmi.m attaana.m). (and similarly for feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness) `This is not self, this is not other than self, neither is self in this nor this in self' (Samyukta-aagama version only). 6. Freedom from the view `superior am I' (seyyo 'ham asmi), `equal am I'(sadiso 'ham asmi), or `inferior am I' (hiino 'ham asmi). These various expressions may be useful for better understanding of not-self, anatta. Regards, Thomas #132343 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > > It's like a person sees "6" as number six, but the other person who's upside down sees number nine. Nobody can persuade one another to believe otherwise if each other still takes one's stand. > > James: Very good analogy! I like it! Now the question is: which one of us is upside down?? :-) JK: It doesn't matter which one but luckily we both are not in deep wrong views. ==================== > James: Oh no, not commentary!! To me, commentary is a dirty word. JK: Sound like someone I has introduced you lately :) ==================== > James: Why should I believe any ancient commentaries anymore than I should believe your or my commentary. After all, those who wrote the commentaries where not enlightened monks. They were scholar monks with a specific agenda to support- the value of Dhamma Study. JK: As far as the history goes, ancient commentaries started to be written by enlightened monks during 3rd Buddhist council Tipitaka sort out in 234 BA or 309 BC. They were far beyond scholar. Because Tipitaka is quite subtle and difficult to understand, they, with intention to help next generation Buddhists to understand the truth, therefore, gave more detail and explanation to Tipitaka in the aspect of the path to wisdom. I think many modern dhamma studying are quite different from the past. They are trend to be scholastic purpose as you said (agenda to value dhamma study). Certificates, diplomas or degrees in dhamma studying are given to acknowledge the fulfillment. That's quite absurd. I totally disagree with this kind of dhamma studying. They will only get knowledge of Buddhism, not wisdom at all. ====================== > James: If the Buddha had meant aggregates he would have said aggregates (just as he did in other suttas). In this sutta the Buddha doesn't say aggregates, he says body. So, if the Buddha said body he means body! (BTW, the ancient commentaries really love to twist that word "body" around a lot. No matter where it shows up, the commentaries usually define it as "mind". Very curious...) JK: There are interrelated reasons in commentary giving the "body" meaning in many passages, not just wanting to twist the word for unexplainable purpose. =========================== > James: Of course you should add your own ideas or beliefs into this! Who wrote those commentaries?? Do you have faith in the Buddha or some uptight scholar monks with too much time on their hands?? JK: Yes, I have faith and respect in the Buddha. I, therefore, intend pretty much to study his teaching thoroughly and carefully, never heedless in dhamma studying. If reliable commentaries can explain Tipitaka more understandable and reasonable within the context of understanding the truth, I have to count on them. ============================== > James: Contemplation of anything with desire, will power, and exertion, even Dhamma, is only bound to bring me a headache! Not wisdom. JK: I guess your inside consciousness is whispering "practice, practice and practice !!!" Anumodhanaa Jagkrit #132344 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:56 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: Yes, I can see why in ordinary language the term meditative state would be used to describe a person in whom jhaana citta is arising. > > > > But the question is whether the development of this so-called meditative state begins with "sitting meditation practice". As far as I'm aware, there's no authority for such a proposition in the texts, even ignoring the fact of the absence of the term "meditation" itself. > > RE: ... The monks who experienced jhana and used it as basis for enlightenment spent hours and hours and hours sitting with "meditative" intention to develop jhana, whatever you'd like to call it. They practiced at it as hard as Itzhak Perlman practiced the violin. This notion that jhana "just arises" due to past accumulations really defies any record of how it actually takes place, or took place. The basis for concentration and the jhana states were cooked in the cauldron of almost full-time meditation practice, and was then carried forward the rest of the 24 hours intentionally when monks would go begging or otherwise do activities. > =============== J: I think the discussion is drifting away from the issue that needs to be discussed, which is the question of mental development (bhavana) at levels appropriate to ordinary folks like you and me (as opposed to the case of some people who lived in the Buddha's time). Let's start with the basics, which hopefully we are in agreement on. As I see it: - in the teachings 2 kinds of bhavana (mental development) are discussed, namely samatha (tranquility) bhavana and vipassana (insight) bhavana - the development of samatha reaches its pinnacle in the attainment of jhana, while the development of vipassana reaches its pinnacle in the attainment of enlightenment. Now in each case, the beginning level of development needs to be understood in order for the pinnacle to be eventually reached. It goes without saying that the path to attainment does not lie in mimicking the behaviour or `practice' of those who have already attained to the pinnacle of development. As regards the development of samatha, this begins with the recognition of moments of kusala as they arise, naturally in our life (which they do for everybody, regardless of whether the teachings have been heard or not). Without this recognition (i.e., understanding) the distinction between kusala and subtle akusala cannot be known, and there can be no actual development -- as opposed to the mere accumulation -- of kusala. The analogy of the development of samatha with the practice of a musical instrument, as you propose above, has no basis in the texts (of course, we are not talking here about the case of the person with already highly developed samatha). Kusala cannot be made to arise by intending/resolving to have more of it, nor by following a practice that imitates the lifestyle of a person who has already developed samatha to a high degree. As long as the characteristic of kusala as it arises naturally in our lives is not known by direct experience, any attempt at directed development will bring the wrong result. As regards the kusala that is awareness/insight, there can be no arising at all without first hearing the teachings explained in a way that is appropriate for our level of development and current circumstances. It cannot be brought on by practice sessions. Jon #132345 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:09 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: Although I would agree with you that there are suttas that indicate that there were monks or lay people who reached enlightenment after hearing the Buddha preach the Dhamma [and the skill in his knowing exactly what to say that you mentioned recently is not incidental to this] the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice. > =============== J: Regarding, "the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice", I am not aware of any basis for this assertion in the teachings. It certainly is not something said by the Buddha, nor is it mentioned in the commentaries. If you are drawing a conclusion from a reading of the suttas as a whole, I can only say it must be a very selective reading :-)) You might like to try this little experiment. Take any volume of the Nikaya translations (or, if you don't have a hard copy, use the translation on the access-to-insight website) and look at any sequence of 12 or more suttas to see how many of them specify (or clearly imply) that the listeners had jhana attainments. I'd be surprised if you're able to find any sequence of suttas that tends to bear out your assertion that most if not all of the Buddha's followers had extensive jhana practice. > =============== > RE: I would also agree that even the ability to reach jhana through practice would involve past life accumulations and it is also equally possible that those who reach enlightenment through hearing the Buddha preach may very well have developed accumulations of jhana in past lives as well, so that they had the necessary requirements to go over the threshold, so to speak. > =============== J: The notion that anyone who became enlightened without first attaining jhana must have attained jhana in a previous lifetime is pure speculation (and a desperate attempt at fitting the texts to a held view -- or what you refer to later in your message as "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition" :-)) > =============== > RE: In any case, the current tradition around the world of Buddhists, both sutta and Abhidhamma followers in Theravadin traditions of all sorts, all meditate as a major component of their practice of Theravada, not because they accidentally decided it might be fun somewhere along the line, or because they decided to adopt a Hindu or Jain practice in Burma or Vietnam, where there never was a Hindu culture at all, but because it was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation. Meditation as represented by sitting in order to develop samatha and sati is in fact one of the most "orthodox" components of all Buddhist traditions. > =============== J: Regarding your point that "[meditation] was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation", you seem to be proposing a line of authority that is oral and not recorded in the Pali Canon. Again, pure speculation (and desparation!). And of course incapable of being verified; would have to be taken on faith. > =============== > RE: Buddha himself was a jhana master, and it was not incidental to his teaching - he was enlightened while practicing jhana at the base of the Bodhi tree, and he entered his parinibbana from the 4th jhana after running the gamut of jhanas up and down the scale. Do you think this was a coincidence, or that the Buddha just wanted to show off his knowledge of jhanas before retiring from this reality? > =============== J: Yes, the Buddha was highly skilled in jhana, and entered jhana etc. before his enlightenment and parinibbaana. But the question that needs to be considered is whether the attainment of jhana (or some particular level of samatha) is a necessary prerequisite to the development of insight at beginning levels. And for that we need to look at what the Buddha actually said on the matter. To date you have not quoted any passage where the Buddha speaks about the necessary conditions for (a) developing awareness and (b) attaining enlightenment. Jon #132346 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:15 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, Sarah, and all, > > Having read carefully what Htoo has explained about the Pali literature, I have to say what Htoo has clarified is very traditional Theravada accounts. What the Buddha taught were Dhamma and Vinaya. The first and second councils did not have the extant Abhidhamma pitaka. > > Thanks very much to Htoo for (his or her) the detailed explanation. It is useful for all who are interested in studies in Pali tradition. > > Sincerely, > > Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Thomas, The Buddha preached abhidhamma in deva realm. The Buddha preached the synopsis of what he preached in deva realm to Saariputta. There was no third time preaching. But at 1st Buddhists' Council abhidhamma was recorded. There are 7 texts. The duty of citation was given to disciples of Saariputta while other duties were given to other Theras and their disciples. In the 3rd Council Kathaavatthu was further explained even though there was original kathaavatthu in the first Council. This is because of a~n~natitthi (other believers entering Buddha' sasanaa. Unlike sutta.ms (diigha, majjhima, samyutta, a`nguttara) abhidhamma texts are not confirmed by Ven Aanandaa. Citation was done by disciples of Saariputta. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132347 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:44 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Tipi.taka records (in palm-leaves one set) are still there in Srilanka and Myanmar. They are all the same. There are many copies as palm-leaves. And all these are from 4th Buddhists' Council. > > No change. And this was passed to 5th Buddhists' Council. All scripts are the same as 4th but they were put on Stone slabs. There are a total of 733 stone slabs. 729 are pure tipi.taka. 1 slab is history-thing and 3 slabs are lists of offerings by King Mindon. > > 1. vinaya 111 slabs > 2. abhidhamma 208 slabs > 3. diigha 36 slabs > 4. majjhima 62 slabs > 5. samyutta 65 slabs > 6. a`nguttara 78 slabs > 7. kuddaka 169 slabs > --------------- > Total 729 slabs > > 6th Buddhists' Council is just paper prints of these. > > > I think you and the group (DSG) once visited the place. .... S: Yes, we did. .... > > These are tipi.taka. Close to Kuthodaw Pagoda where Tipi.taka stone slabs exist is Sandamuni Pagoda. In there there also are stone slabs. They are a.t.thakathaa. > > One Monk made a CD with photographs of these stone slabs. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Nikaayas are four in number. > .... > S: Not according to the ancient Theras. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There are 4 nikaayas. Diigha, Majjhima, Samyutta, and A`nguttara. > > Kuddaka = kudda + ka > > Kudda means small. All small texts are put into Kuddaka nikaaya. > > In Kuddaka Nikaaya are > > 1. kuddakapaa.tha > 2. dhammapada > 3. udaana > 4. itivuttaka > 5. suttanipaata > 6. vimaanavatthu > 7. petavatthu > 8. theragaathaa > 9. theriigaathaa > 10. jaataka > 11. niddesa > 12. pa.tisambhidaamagga > 13. apadaana > 14. buddhava.msa > 15. cariyaapitaka > > These are original texts. > > 16. suttasa`ngaha > 17. milindapa~nhaa > 18. netti > 19. pe.takopadesa > > These 4 texts did not exist in 3rd Buddhists' Council. But they are assumed as 'Paa.li' or are 'like the words of the Buddha' and they are included in Kuddaka Nikaaya. ... S: Yes, so 5 Nikayas. > Abhidhamma was recorded (orally by citation) by Mahaakassapa, Aanandaa, Upaali, Anuruddhaa(of Buddha's time), and many Theras (elderly) at 1st Buddhists' Council. > > The recorded abhidhammaa was not the direct teachings of the Buddha. But they are of disciples of Saariputta(who already passed away before 1st council and even before the Buddha). ... S: Yes, "Buddha Vacana" as we read in the Atthasalini. ... > > Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha was written round about 900 years after the Buddha by Anuruddhaa (of Srilanka). .... S: yes, a faithful summary of the Abhidhamma and this is the reason it has been recited over the years by Burmese monks. ... > > A.t.thakathaa were written by > > 1. Buddhaghosa (ghosa = voice) > 2. Buddhadatta > 3. Dhammapaala > > No one make any adding or deletion or correction to Paa.li and A.t.thakathaa. ... S: Correct and these atthakatha were compilations of material available and, as in the case of the Vism, thoroughly tested by the great Mahavihara Theras from Anuradhapura ... > Htoo: > > Abhidhamma is more than 'abhidammatthasa`ngaha'. Visuddhimagga is not all about Abhidhamma. All are A.t.thakathaa. All of these what you said 'Atthasalini, Vism and Abhidhammatthasangaha' are still there in Myanmar in Sandamuni Pagoda's stone slabs near Mandalay Mountain. A.t.thakathaa are valued by all Theravadan Buddhists in Myanmar. ... S: I'm glad to hear that "A.t.thakathaa are valued by all Theravadan Buddhists in Myanmar". There is no suggestion from me or anyone else here that the Abhidhamma only consists of certain commentaries. However, it helps a lot to read the Abhidhamma texts themselves, such as Dhammasangani or Vibhanga with their commentaries. Most important of all - and the only reason for reading anything - is the understanding at this moment of dhammas as elements, not self. Better to read a fashion magazine or watch TV with right understanding of dhammas as anatta than to read the entire Tipitaka in Pali with wrong understanding about dhammas and practice as atta. ... > Htoo: > > I just wrote on history. I do not write on modern commentaries. And there is no modern 'A.t.thakathaa'. ... S: Agree. ... > > There are > > 1. Paa.li (original words of the Buddha) > 2. A.t.thakathaa (explanations on Paa.li) "A.t.thakathaa" or commentaries were even made by Saariputta and Buddha approved. .... S: And many disciples, such as Maha Kaccayana. Whatever spoken by them and in accordance with the Teachings became 'Buddha vacana'. .... > 3. .Tiikaa (old tiikaa and new tiikaa are there) > > "Abhidhammatthavibhaavanii" is a .tiikaa (subcommentary) and in that .tiikaa there are 245 wrong facts. .... S: I haven't come across any "wrong facts" there. We can discuss these. I know that Ledi Sayadaw disagreed with parts of what he read, but his comments and disagreements have always been very controversial - in Burma especially, as I recall. -------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I just presented history. Paa.li and A.t.thakathaa are very much valued by all Theravadan Buddhists monks and many lay people. There are many lay people who passed Abhidhamma, Nikaayas, and Vinaya in line with Paa.li and A.t.thakathaa. ... S: What does it mean to 'pass"? The only test that is of any value is the direct understanding of reality at this moment, NOT the memorizing of texts or the knowledge of Pali or any other language. At the end of this life, all book knowledge, all languages remembered will be forgotten. However, direct understanding accumulates and is never lost. Metta Sarah ===== #132348 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:14 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > > J: Are you saying that "mindfulness meditation" is simply a synonym for the Pali term "satipatthana", or perhaps for the contents of the Satipatthana Sutta? Or is it a part only of that/those. If the latter (i.e., part only), why focus on a part rather than the whole? > > RE: I don't understand this kind of question. The satipatthana sutta, like the anapanasati, starts out with a monk or other practitioner who is practicing mindfulness of breathing. Within the sitting meditation practice of mindfulness of breathing - anapanasati - he then goes through all the other arenas in which mindfulness must be applied. It's all of one cloth, and all in the context of sitting meditation, unless one wants to artificially dissect it and skew it to make it seem like it is something else. > =============== J: My question was simply what you, Rob E, mean by the term "meditation" when you use it, given that there's no equivalent Pali term in the texts. Does it refer to a particular part of the teachings given by the Buddha and, if so, which part? And why single out that part to the exclusion of the other parts? > =============== > > J: But at least we all know what is meant by a "horse" :-)) > > RE: Well in almost any conversation any given day, everyone knows what meditation means too. It's only around here that it seems like some kind of weird tropical plant that just can't be defined no matter how hard one tries. I think it's a fairly artificial problem. > =============== J: Regarding, "everyone knows what meditation means", I very much doubt this is so. The distinct impression I get is that the term is used indiscriminately, without a clear idea of a precise meaning. > =============== > RE: Meditation is an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another. > =============== J: Thanks for giving (at last!) a definition of meditation as "an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another". I do not know of any instance of the Buddha saying that sitting or standing still and focussing on an object could cause one to enter a more refined or spiritual state. There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a) seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments. But that is not the same as saying that the Buddha prescribed a practice of sitting and concentrating as a means of attaining a more kusala state. As far as the path is concerned, the Buddha himself did not make a distinction between "meditative" development and other ("non-meditative"/daily-life) development. > =============== > RE: In Buddhist meditation there are specific ways of focusing and breathing and practicing mindfulness, which is beyond other traditions' ways of going into trance or merely relaxing or focusing, but they are still defineable, understandable and not at all weird or unclear. The Buddha describes it with no problem in the anapanasati and satipatthana suttas. They're not all that hard to follow. It's only when we start arguing about what the meaning of "there is the case where" means - whether that is an observation or instruction - that the definition gets all thready, because we're making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text. If the Buddha is talking about following breathing to develop samatha and sati over and over again, it means that it is a valid and important topic in the practice he is teaching, period. It's not necessary to argue over the meaning of "is" or "the" or whether a root of a tree is a real root or not or whether it is metaphor for equanimity, not a real tree at all. > =============== J: You mention the Satipatthana Sutta and also "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text". I'd be interested to know what you see as being the plain meaning of the following passages from that sutta: 1. (Cemetery Contemplation 1) "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.' ..." 2. (Contemplation of Feeling) "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu when experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands: 'I experience a pleasant feeling'; when experiencing a painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a painful feeling'; when experiencing a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, he understands: 'I experience a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling'; ..." 3. (Contemplation of Consciousness) "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; ..." 4. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Five Hindrances)) "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' ..." 5. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Five Aggregates of Clinging)) "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' ..." 6. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Seven Factors of Enlightenment)) "Here, o bhikkhus, when the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor of mindfulness'; or when the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is absent, he knows with understanding: 'I have not the enlightenment factor of mindfulness'; ..." 7. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Four Truths)) "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands: 'This is suffering,' according to reality; ..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html To my reading, these are descriptions of monks with developed understanding, rather than instructions of practices to be followed. For example, all except the first passage refer to the bhikkhu who "understands" or "knows with understanding". This is not something that can be `done' by following a `practice', surely. > =============== > > J: In the case of the Satipatthana Sutta, the references you mention are 1 part only of the 1st of 4 foundations of mindfulness. And they are spoken for the benefit of those persons in whom samatha and vipassana are already highly developed (this is apparent from the opening words beginning "There is the case where "). So there is a lot more in the Sutta than the part you mention. > > RE: In my view, they are all based on and take place within the context of the first part. The breathing practice is not just described for part 1, it is the mode that one is in for all four parts. > > "There is the case where" sets up the condition for the whole sutta, not just the few paragraphs immediately afterwards. > =============== J: Regarding, "breathing practice is the mode for all four parts [of the Satipatthana Sutta]", this is certainly not the plain meaning of the Satipatthana Sutta, and nor is there any support in the Pali Canon for this view. It's a view espoused by those who are trying to fit the teachings into their own belief system (or what you would call "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition":-)) The passages from the Satipatthana Sutta that I've quoted above make perfect sense as they stand without imputing any "breathing practice" context. > =============== > > J: I didn't put that very well. Yes, we're discussing meditation. But there are times when I've tried to steer the conversation to the development of the path in general, i.e., not just that part of the path that involves what you call meditation. So far to no avail :-)) > > RE: Well we can switch subjects any time, but I thought we should try to resolve this issue once and for all before moving on to the many other topics available. So if you agree with me that meditation is essential to the development of the enlightenment factors, I'm ready to go forward! :-))) > =============== J: Happy to agree with you if it's what the Buddha said :-)) Jon #132349 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:15 pm Subject: Now! sarahprocter... Dear Gabi, I'm so glad to read your greetings and Dhamma comments. I'm replying to DSG as well so that others like Nina can share what we discuss as well. ... >G: It had tropical temeratures in Germany and I sit in my garden and listen to the Thailand tapes (not as often as I wish) it feels almost as I am there. .... S: Very hot in Hong Kong now as well - actually, just a moment of experience through the body-sense and then the usual stories about the hot place, sunshine and important me! I'm glad you're listening to the Thailand tapes. We've now uploaded the part-edited full series, including the parts you missed at the end of the trip, on www.dhammastudygroup.org. The last couple of days are really good. It all is. We're also uploading discussions from a more recent trip (June) to Bkk & KK. I think you will appreciate this set a lot because there is almost no Pali used. One of our friends from Australia joined us, Annie, and she was completely new to the Dhamma (apart from a few chats and one discussion with us beforehand). You can find all these under 'editing in progress' in the audio section. ... >G: Tom asked once for guidance in the bringing up of children, e.g. let them see violent movies or not etc. If I understand Acharns answer right she pointed out that the importence lies in one´s own citta – is citta kusala or akusala, is there metta or not. ... S: Yes, it always comes back to one's own citta. I wrote about this part on DSG: "S: Some of the group went with A.Sujin to Safari World which she loves. They have some very loud, touristy shows there including one called "Spy Wars". Jon & I didn't go, but Tom did. A few days later he raised the topic of taking children to such shows or to violent movies and whether they should be avoided. A.Sujin gave a very good response about how there is only a problem when "it's not the lone world". When thinking and worrying about children going to such shows, at such a time "there is the problem of children because it's not the lone world". What is the lone world? The world of seeing, hearing and so on just now. That's all. Always back to this moment." ... And in a second message, on the same topic and part of the recording, I wrote: "S: A little more from the recording: A.Sujin: The problem keeps in one's mind - always thinking about it. *** Tom: We have to think about it. Can we say it doesn't matter whether they (the children) see it (the violent show) or not? *** AS: Wholesome or unwholesome moments of thinking about such things? This is the point. See - the children cannot follow you to the other world next life, but worry and what seems like a problem keeps in one's mind - the cetasikas, the realities always think about other things concerning this or that all the time. No understanding of what citta, what reality, is there at the moment of thinking. It seems like one thinks with goodness or kindness, but the citta which thinks - is it clear or full of problems, worry, akusala cetasikas? Even after seeing now, is citta clear or sprinkled with dust of attachment? And then when it comes to be about things and people, more and more worry about them by conditions. There can be the understanding of anatta at any moment of anything when panna is there. Even at the moment of thinking about children, there can be the understanding at that very moment as anatta, not me, only a reality thinking by conditions and is gone. *** Nina: Tom wants to know how to help children with kusala cittas. We live in the conventional world. *** AS: Leave it to condtions. You think in your way and the others think in their way and what about 'just do your best'? *** Tom talks about choosing a video and needing to select one and the dilemmas involved. *** AS: 'Just do your best!' What's the result of attachment? More fire again. Kindness does not hurt at all. They can sense the difference between kindness and attachment." .... >G:And there are on other tapes the same statements. Once Nina mentioned that she feels that the hostess where they were was not happy with the group staying at her house. Acharn answered that it does not matter, but we are friendly to her. And another excample: There was a talk on printing or translating a Dhamma text where Venerable ? from Ceylon was involved and in the course of the talk Acharn said. I do not care about Venerable ? citta, I care about my own citta. (Maybe not exact wording, but meaning correct. Mind your “own” citta) .... S: Yes, the world is always the world appearing now through one of the 6 door-ways. We think a lot about events and people, but what kind of citta thinks now? Kusala or akusala? With ignorance and attachment or with understanding? ... >G: The Vietnam trip comes near and maybe there is opportunity to ask Acharn another question on accumulation. Can we ask: “What accululates? and the answer is – Cetasikas? ... S: Yes, very glad if you and any others send any questions you'd like raised. We'll be also going to KK, so lots of time to ask qus for anyone. Yes, cetasikas accumulate with kusala and akusala cittas. At moments of vipaka, such as when seeing or hearing, there is no accumulation at these times, because they are the result. However, afterwards when there is attachment or aversion on account of what is seen or heard, those mental states accumulate and may even be of sufficient strength that kamma (cetana cetasika) can bring result in future. You'll remember we talked about natural decisive support condition - this is the broad condition that conditions such mental factors to accumulate. It is also the way that sati and panna can develop and accumulate too. Gabi, we'd also like to wish you good health and wise reflections. If you find any parts of the recordings especially helpful, do share any comments or words and if you have further points or comments let me know. Metta Sarah (& Jonothan) p.s. pls don't mind about typos or spelling errors. We all make them - better to write! ========= #132350 From: "philip" Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:33 pm Subject: Re: khanika (momentary) samadhi philofillet Dear Robert, group Thanks for explanation on khanika samadhi. Of course it wall fall on deaf ears. People want samadhi to be something they can sit and make happen. So the example of the criminal picking a lock is wuite suitable. Wrong concentration, rooted in greed fo gains. (Interesting how it is theeight worldly conditions that fuel the meditation industry.) Now I have finished taking care of my Dad's breakfast and it is time for me to sit snd create pleasant mental/physical states by exploiting "the breath" with greed for comfort. Maybe I'll even gain "access concentration." (@_@) Phil #132351 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:33 pm Subject: DSG photo albums sarahprocter... Dear Phil & all, Thanks for adding the lovely pic of you and your Dad in the 'Significant Others' album. It's always good to see pics of friends here and of their 'significant others', so please add a pic into the member album (or two or three!) if you haven't done so. Thomas? Htoo? Anyone else.... Metta Sarah ====== #132352 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:42 pm Subject: audio recordings, June in Thailand sarahprocter... Dear Lan, Annie & all, We've uploaded quite a few of the really excellent audio tracks from our discussions in Bkk & KK in June. They can be found here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ - audio - editing in progress: Bangkok & Kaeng Krajaan, June 2013 I think they are one of the very best sets of recordings - Ajhan Sujin really speaks at length on all the basics and lots on the favourite topics of discussion here - meditation and practice. Highly recommended to all. Annie, Lan and all - do hope you listen and perhaps share any lines you like or any further comments/questions. Share with others too! Metta Sarah #132353 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:45 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Robert) - Jon, you wrote "There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a)seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments." Why was the Buddha so apparently foolish to *praise* one for having attained certain abilities entirely not due to intentional efforts of theirs? (Seriously!) Relatedly, why do you seem to believe that intentional action for a worthy goal is either reprehensible or useless or impossible. That is, why do you have no use for kusala kamma and expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose? (If I'm incorrect in my presumptions here, then I apologize.) With metta, Howard P. S. Using -> and <- for relevant emphasis in the following. Mundane Wrong View /And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. ->There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions.<- There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view./ (From the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta) #132354 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:50 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - One more thing, a bit of a disclaimer: You post a great deal and consequently "voice" a host of ideas. In any body of expressed thought so large and detailed, one is *bound* to be able to zero in on a sentence or two that seem faulty. I recognize that that is a bit unfair! Sorry! :-( With metta, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Robert) - > > Jon, you wrote "There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a)seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments." Why was the Buddha so apparently foolish to *praise* one for having attained certain abilities entirely not due to intentional efforts of theirs? (Seriously!) > Relatedly, why do you seem to believe that intentional action for a worthy goal is either reprehensible or useless or impossible. That is, why do you have no use for kusala kamma and expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose? (If I'm incorrect in my presumptions here, then I apologize.) > > With metta, > Howard > > P. S. Using -> and <- for relevant emphasis in the following. > > > Mundane Wrong View > > /And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. ->There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions.<- There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view./ > > (From the Maha-Cattarisaka Sutta) > #132355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] audio recordings, June in Thailand nilovg Dear Sarah, Annie and Lan, Looking forward to them, anumodana. It would be so good if Annie and Lan would tell us about their personal impressions during those sessions. I would really appreciate this. Nina. Op 10 aug 2013, om 13:42 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Dear Lan, Annie & all, > > We've uploaded quite a few of the really excellent audio tracks from our discussions in Bkk & KK in June. They can be found here: #132356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada nilovg Dear Thomas, thank you for the Pali. You have been also on the Pali list for some time and it is good that you can help us with Pali texts. Yes there are various expressions and in the different English translations it is not so clear. Op 10 aug 2013, om 05:18 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > Thomas: Various terms for the notion of not-self (anatta) are found in the SN suttas (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 57-60): > > 1. `Not belonging to self' (anattaniya); and `neither self nor belonging to self' (anatta-anattaniya). > > 2. `Not belonging to you' (na tumhaaka.m). > > 3. `Self-conceit/pride' (asmi-maana), `self-excitement/impulse' > (asmi-chanda), and `self-bias' (asmi-anusaya). > > 4. `This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self' (n'etam mama, n'eso 'ham asmi, na m'eso attaa ti) (`This': Referring to each of the five aggregates and the sense spheres) ------ N: The Co to the Majjhima Nikaaya explains these as: clinging to the khandhas with attachment (no view), with conceit and with wrong view. Attachment can be accompanied by wrong view or it can be without it. When it comes to citta now only Pa~n~naa which has been developed can know whether there is wrong view or not. When there is conceit, there cannot be wrong view at the same time. Conceit accompanies attachment. The intellectual understanding of all these matters can condition later on direct understanding. ------- > > Th: 5. One does not regard (na samanupassati) material form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessing material form (ruupavanta.m attaana.m), or material form as being in self (attani ruupa.m), or self as being in material form (ruupasmi.m attaana.m). (and similarly for feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness) ------- N: These are the twenty forms of sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality view. Four for each of the five khandhas. ------- > > Th: `This is not self, this is not other than self, neither is self in this nor this in self' (Samyukta-aagama version only). > > 6. Freedom from the view `superior am I' (seyyo 'ham asmi), `equal am I'(sadiso 'ham asmi), or `inferior am I' (hiino 'ham asmi). -------- N: This is conceit. Only the arahat is free from it. --------- Nina. #132357 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > thank you for the Pali. You have been also on the Pali list for some time and it is good that you can help us with Pali texts. > Yes there are various expressions and in the different English translations it is not so clear. > Op 10 aug 2013, om 05:18 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > Thomas: Various terms for the notion of not-self (anatta) are found in the SN suttas (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 57-60): > > > > 1. `Not belonging to self' (anattaniya); and `neither self nor belonging to self' (anatta-anattaniya). > > > > 2. `Not belonging to you' (na tumhaaka.m). > > > > 3. `Self-conceit/pride' (asmi-maana), `self-excitement/impulse' > > (asmi-chanda), and `self-bias' (asmi-anusaya). > > > > 4. `This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self' (n'etam mama, n'eso 'ham asmi, na m'eso attaa ti) (`This': Referring to each of the five aggregates and the sense spheres) > ------ > N: The Co to the Majjhima Nikaaya explains these as: clinging to the khandhas with attachment (no view), with conceit and with wrong view. Attachment can be accompanied by wrong view or it can be without it. > When it comes to citta now only Pa~n~naa which has been developed can know whether there is wrong view or not. When there is conceit, there cannot be wrong view at the same time. Conceit accompanies attachment. The intellectual understanding of all these matters can condition later on direct understanding. > ------- > > > > Th: 5. One does not regard (na samanupassati) material form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessing material form (ruupavanta.m attaana.m), or material form as being in self (attani ruupa.m), or self as being in material form (ruupasmi.m attaana.m). (and similarly for feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness) > ------- > N: These are the twenty forms of sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality view. Four for each of the five khandhas. > ------- > > > > Th: `This is not self, this is not other than self, neither is self in this nor this in self' (Samyukta-aagama version only). > > > > 6. Freedom from the view `superior am I' (seyyo 'ham asmi), `equal am I'(sadiso 'ham asmi), or `inferior am I' (hiino 'ham asmi). > -------- > N: This is conceit. Only the arahat is free from it. > --------- > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: "ne'ta.m mama n'eso'hamasmi, na m'eso attaa". This appears in many of sutta.ms. This indicates 'ta.nhaa, maana, and di.t.thi'. These three dhammas are papa~nca dhammas. "saha kaayo sakkaayo". Sakkaayas are reality. Sakkaaya are ruupa.m, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaaraa, and vi~n~naa.na.m and any of these in isolation or in group. "di.t.thi" wrongly assume these sakkaayas (realities) as 'self'. So it is "sakkaaya-di.t.thi" that hinder arising of vipassanaa-~naa.na. 1. sakkaaya = atta (self) 2. sakkaaya is owned by atta 3. sakkaaya is in atta 4. atta is in sakkaaya As sakkaayas are 5 (ruupa.m, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaaraa, vi~n~naa.nam) there are (4 multiplied by 5 = 20 sakkaaya-di.t.thi). When ruupa.m or vedanaa or sa~n~naa or sa`nkhaaraa or vi~n~naa.na.m is seen as ruupa.m etc there is no more atta. If ruupa.m etc is overlooked then idea of atta (self) arises. There are three forms to arise sakkaaya-di.t.thi. In the form of ta.nhaa, maana, di.t.thi. These sakkaayas are khandhaa. Khandhaa are 1. atiita (past) 2. paccuppanna(present) 3. anaagata (future) 4. hiina (lesser) 5. pa.niita (greater) 6. o.laarika (rough) 7. sukhuma (subtle) 8. bahiddha (outer) 9. ajjhattika(inner) 10. duure (far) 11. santike (near) Ruupa.m of these 11, vedanaa of these 11, sa~n~naa of these 11, sa`nkhaara of these 11, and vi~n~naa.na.m of these 11 are called khandhaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132358 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:53 am Subject: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >J: The notion that anyone who became enlightened without first >attaining jhana must have attained jhana in a previous lifetime is pure >speculation (and a desperate attempt at fitting the texts to a held >view -- or what you refer to later in your message as "making up false >issues to prove a philosophical predisposition" :-)) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If one needs to attain N8P for stream entry, then one needs to attain 4 jhanas which form 8th part of N8P called samma-samadhi. No need to mention Jhanas because it is assumed whenever N8P is mentioned. With best wishes, Alex #132359 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, Nice to hear back from you. I will reply in text to some responses: > > JK: It doesn't matter which one but luckily we both are not in deep wrong views. > James: Yes, that is a good point. I am reminded of after the Buddha became enlightened and he was wary of teaching the Dhamma to others because of the difficulty involved. Then a god from a deva heaven came to him and reminded him that there are "those but with little dust in their eyes". So, whenever I get really frustrated with the KS group I try to remind myself "There are those with little dust in their eyes"....and I trust they feel the same way about me. :-) > ==================== > > > James: Oh no, not commentary!! To me, commentary is a dirty word. > > JK: Sound like someone I has introduced you lately :) > James: Who is that??? But no, I have not been specifically inspired by anyone lately. My absolute hatred and revulsion of the commentaries goes back a very long time...years in fact. Just ask Sarah and Jon. :-) > JK: As far as the history goes, ancient commentaries started to be written by enlightened monks during 3rd Buddhist council Tipitaka sort out in 234 BA or 309 BC. James: I don't agree with your description of the 3rd Buddhist Council. The 3rd Buddhist Council was called by the truly genuine Buddhist Emperor Asoka. However, he called the council because the Sangha had become overrun with fake monks and charlatans (btw, this started to happen only 200 years after the Buddha's parinibbana!....it only takes about two generations for complete corruption.) They were far beyond scholar. Because Tipitaka is quite subtle and difficult to understand, they, with intention to help next generation Buddhists to understand the truth, therefore, gave more detail and explanation to Tipitaka in the aspect of the path to wisdom. > James: This was a very turbulent time period and there was an effort to clean up the Sangha of worthless monks and heretical views. I think it is in this climate that the commentaries began. They might have been a good intention, but they were a bad effect. At that time, the Sangha was filled with unworthy monks. So, in essence, the commentaries could be the writings of madmen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Buddhist_council > JK: Yes, I have faith and respect in the Buddha. I, therefore, intend pretty much to study his teaching thoroughly and carefully, never heedless in dhamma studying. James: Very good for you! I respect you for this! If reliable commentaries can explain Tipitaka more understandable and reasonable within the context of understanding the truth, I have to count on them. > James: The question is: are they "reliable"? Personally, I don't think so. BTW, let my give you little background about myself. I don't believe in the "Abhidhamma Proper" but I do see the value in it for some people since it began as a meditation manual...and it does describe pure experiences. After all, some people like to look at a map before they go on a journey. I can understand that. But I have no patience whatsoever with the ancient commentaries!!!! In my estimation, they are full of so many lies and false views that they aren't worth anyone's time at all! They are terrible and evil to me. > ============================== > > > James: Contemplation of anything with desire, will power, and exertion, even Dhamma, is only bound to bring me a headache! Not wisdom. > > JK: I guess your inside consciousness is whispering "practice, practice and practice !!!" > James: Yeah, my inside consciousness is always whispering that!! :-) > Anumodhanaa > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132360 From: "colette_aube" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:29 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada colette_aube Hi James, This was a rather pleasant response, to me, to read. In some ways, yes, it is important to have a "greeting" or an "attention getter" or... I use it because I take every day a new chance, a new opportunity, to get LIFE and/or living, correct since I am the first to admit just how ignorant I am. I merely said "good morning" because I rarely get the chance to say it a person and have them say it to me, now, in my life and the neighborhood I live surrounded by a certain type of people. > James: Good Morning to you also! You know I hate it when others ignore the pleasantries of greeting another fellow human being. I am glad you understand the importance. Good morning to you, Colette... > > > > Well now, "... alien who works hard daily at suppressing emotion." IF we actively try to BEHAVE by "suppressing" or through "suppression" then aren't we trying to control a manifested BEHAVIOR? > > James: Yes, we are trying to do that. We are all trying to control manifested behaviors all the time. That isn't a big deal. That is survival. > colette: YES IT IS A BIG DEAL. I work and practice "magik" thus I work in the field of THE ESOTERIC. Take for instance the existence of this thing called THE MIND ONLY SCHOOL OF BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY or YOGACARA. SORRY, the entire meaning of the Buddhist philosophy surrounding the "concept" of ILLUSION is based on THE MIND ESTABLISHING AN EXISTENCE OR SOMETHING THAT EXISTS OUTSIDE THE MIND (see Rupa). to suggest that the mind's only function of "thinking" and "outwardly PROJECTING" a THOUGHT is to believe that you can live in a straight jacket that you call a white tuxedo. IT IS NOT REAL NOR IS IT REALITY TO ATTEMPT TO ALLOW THE EXISTENCE OF A THOUGHT NOT BEING A BIG DEAL IMO. -------------------------- > The Objectivity is manifest the consciousness of ANATTA which NO SELF and this, THEN, does not fit into the Buddha's meanings, IMO. > > James: Yeah, I hear what you are saying. The subject of consciousness and identity is truly slippery in a lot of ways. But don't we all have to work to hang on to some sort of identity?? > colette: I wonder if you really do hear what I am saying or theorizing, above. The Buddha puts forth an OBJECTIVE to achieve something i.e.nirvana. HIS SYSTEM WORKS yet we cannot deny that his system works and one of the most tremendously difficult foundational aspects of that system is ANATTA. consider the concept of YOGA NIDRA that can be achieved through MEDITATION. This is a CONSCIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL CONDITION that can be achieved. The way I personally interpret the meanings of other colleagues that practice MEDITATION, in similar ways, is that ANATTA IS ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED WHEN ONE OF THE JHANA STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS i.e. YOGA NIDRA in TANTRIC PRACTICES, IS ESTABLISHED AND COGNIZED BY THE PRACTITIONER WHILE PRACTICING. ONCE YOU EXPERIENCE THIS THERE IS NO TURNING BACK. No sir. The bija is planted and it knows the experience of BLISS that accompanies this state of consciousness You cannot and will not "put the gennii back in the bottle". <....> It certainly is a "slippery slope" because the definition of ANATTA is just that, releasing a NAME (see NAME-FORM, NAMA-RUPA, ETC) a LABEL, and becoming ONE WITH THE STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS, the JHANA, YOGA NIDRA, etc. -------------------------- > BY THEORY, the existence of "Mr. Spock" was based on "Mr. Spock's" ability to NOT THINK ABOUT ANATTA or NO-SELF because ANATTA is the NORM, spock DID NOT HAVE TO ACTIVELY THINK TO SUPPRESS THOUGHTS OF A "SELF" EXISTING and by having the DESIRE to SUPPRESS that which is delusional > > James: Yeah, Spock had it so great!! It would be great to live in a culture that actively discouraged attachment to false ideas! But, them again, they would also encourage attachment to their own false ideas. There is no escape when you are part of a culture...(sad but true). > colette: I understand how you are acquiesing to the confrontation that DUALISM possess and postulates for our weakmindedness, but that by no means forces us all to obey the SLAVERY TO A CULTURE and a CASTE SYSTEM or CLASS STRUCTURE of STRATIFICATION i.e. HIERARCHY, the value structure of MORE MORE MORE, HOW DO YA LIKE IT HOW DO YA LIKE IT , MORE MORE MORE (see Gloria Gannor), which is gluttony and/or gluttonous. As much as you would like to believe otherwise, there are people that still exist today, who practice THE ESOTERIC outside of the THERAVADAN OR CATHOLIC ORTHODOXY and they have been great friends to have along with me on my travels (in 1982, I hitch hiked from coast to coast 2.5 times, landing in New Orleans and stopping my attemps to get to NYC, see NYC in the summer of 1982, then hitch to MIAMI for the winter months while the cocaine wars were hot and heavy). Yes, I still practice and have no reason NOT TO PRACTICE. Society has not allowed me to have money and so I have not had enough money to reach the heights of THE POVERTY LINE, since 1981 if not 1978, so do not believe that I have had to actively work to suppress or change my need for money because I have never been allowed to have more than $10,000.00 a year which means that I've lived quite nice practicing and NOT HAVING MONEY because I haven't had the temptation of thinking about doing things or deviating from the ESOTERIC PATH. People will not allow me to glorify myself through that OMNIPOTENCE that money bestows upon them thus they keep money away from me and keep as much as they can get their greedy little paws on. don't worry, if people did not HATE and were not JEALOUS and ENVIOUS then they might know that I live without their vile hate, their anger, etc., upon which they perform every day while competing and grabbing with others like themselves. I guess we can say that I listened to the song "GOODBYE STRANGER" by Supertramp a few too many times back in 1979. > > Same as it ever was... > > > > James: Yes it is. So stop spending time feeling sorry for the situation and try to help others. That is why we are here... colette: but I am helping others. Each day that I can open my eyes and breathe air, I live to help them, to practice, to experience, then to write about it, and bring forth LIGHT OR IS IT ILLUMINATION (the morning star, LUCIFER) showing them how corrupt they actually are. Unfortunately, I cannot change the DENIAL PHASE OF ADDICTION that they are in because they deny anything and everything proclaiming that THEIR SHIT DOES NOT STINK and that I AM ALWAYS WRONG AND NEVER RIGHT. Which is to say that a heroin addict will have to become FLATLINE in and through the addictive behavior before they can accept the fact that there actually are EIGHT CONSCIOUSNESSES. toodles, colette #132361 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:28 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Htoo, ----- <. . .> > KH: he does not accept anatta. <. . .> >> H: :-) I do accept 'anicca'. ---- KH: That was not the reaction I was expecting. :-) ------------- <. . .> > H: There seem 'lost a linkage'. The Buddha did not directly teach 'anatta'. -------------- KH: That strikes me as a very strange thing to say. I assume you have some obscure text-based reasons for saying it, but I am not an expert on the texts. Therefore, I was very glad to see that Nina had already responded on that point. -------------------- <. . .> > H: Sammaa-chanda does work. > "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". ----------- <. . .> > H: As long as there is wanting (lobha) siila or samaadhi or pa~n~naa will not work for liberation. ----------- KH: I don't know why you have put it that way. Why didn't you say, 'As long as there is wanting (lobha) there cannot be dana, sila, samatha or vipasana'? You seem to be saying there can be some kind of kusala with lobha (!) even though it might not be the kind of kusala that will "work for liberation." (?) ---------------------- > H: But if 'wanting' is not lobha and it is associated with viva.t.ta-pa~n~naa then that 'wanting' is 'sammaa-chanda'. > Sammaa-chanda does work. > "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". --------------------- KH: We can't have it both ways. Lobha can't play the role of samma-chanda. When we want to be a better person (a better atta) who is calm and can practise vipassana, that is lobha and atta-ditthi. It is not samma-chanda. Ken H #132362 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:55 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, Thanks fot your reply. > ... But at 1st Buddhists' Council abhidhamma was recorded. There are 7 texts. ... Could you indicate what are the 7 texts? Thanks. Regards, Thomas #132363 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:32 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, --- "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Thanks fot your reply. > > > ... But at 1st Buddhists' Council abhidhamma was recorded. There are 7 texts. ... > > Could you indicate what are the 7 texts? > > Thanks. > > Regards, > > Thomas > Sorry, I got the names of the 7 texts you mentioned before: >> "Abidhamma" was passed on by recitation by the disciples of B.Saariputta. There were 7 texts. They are 1. Dhammasa`nganii 2. Vibha`nga 3. Dhaatukathaa 4. Puggalapa~n~natti 5. Kathaavatthu 6. Yamaka 7. Pa.t.thaana All these 7 texts are just the median version of so called "Abhidhamma". Kathaavatthu was originally concise and was not such long as in today texts.>> Regards, Thomas #132364 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Anattaa. thomaslaw03 --- "htoonaing@..." wrote: > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Thomas, > > thank you for the Pali. You have been also on the Pali list for some time and it is good that you can help us with Pali texts. > > Yes there are various expressions and in the different English translations it is not so clear. > > Op 10 aug 2013, om 05:18 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > > > Thomas: Various terms for the notion of not-self (anatta) are found in the SN suttas (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 57-60): > > > > > > 1. `Not belonging to self' (anattaniya); and `neither self nor belonging to self' (anatta-anattaniya). > > > > > > 2. `Not belonging to you' (na tumhaaka.m). > > > > > > 3. `Self-conceit/pride' (asmi-maana), `self-excitement/impulse' > > > (asmi-chanda), and `self-bias' (asmi-anusaya). > > > > > > 4. `This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self' (n'etam mama, n'eso 'ham asmi, na m'eso attaa ti) (`This': Referring to each of the five aggregates and the sense spheres) > > ------ > > N: The Co to the Majjhima Nikaaya explains these as: clinging to the khandhas with attachment (no view), with conceit and with wrong view. Attachment can be accompanied by wrong view or it can be without it. > > When it comes to citta now only Pa~n~naa which has been developed can know whether there is wrong view or not. When there is conceit, there cannot be wrong view at the same time. Conceit accompanies attachment. The intellectual understanding of all these matters can condition later on direct understanding. > > ------- > > > > > > Th: 5. One does not regard (na samanupassati) material form as self (ruupa.m attato), or self as possessing material form (ruupavanta.m attaana.m), or material form as being in self (attani ruupa.m), or self as being in material form (ruupasmi.m attaana.m). (and similarly for feeling, perception, activities, and consciousness) > > ------- > > N: These are the twenty forms of sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality view. Four for each of the five khandhas. > > ------- > > > > > > Th: `This is not self, this is not other than self, neither is self in this nor this in self' (Samyukta-aagama version only). > > > > > > 6. Freedom from the view `superior am I' (seyyo 'ham asmi), `equal am I'(sadiso 'ham asmi), or `inferior am I' (hiino 'ham asmi). > > -------- > > N: This is conceit. Only the arahat is free from it. > > --------- > > Nina. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > "ne'ta.m mama n'eso'hamasmi, na m'eso attaa". This appears in many of sutta.ms. This indicates 'ta.nhaa, maana, and di.t.thi'. These three dhammas are papa~nca dhammas. > > "saha kaayo sakkaayo". Sakkaayas are reality. Sakkaaya are ruupa.m, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaaraa, and vi~n~naa.na.m and any of these in isolation or in group. > > "di.t.thi" wrongly assume these sakkaayas (realities) as 'self'. So it is "sakkaaya-di.t.thi" that hinder arising of vipassanaa-~naa.na. > > 1. sakkaaya = atta (self) > 2. sakkaaya is owned by atta > 3. sakkaaya is in atta > 4. atta is in sakkaaya > > As sakkaayas are 5 (ruupa.m, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa`nkhaaraa, vi~n~naa.nam) there are (4 multiplied by 5 = 20 sakkaaya-di.t.thi). > > When ruupa.m or vedanaa or sa~n~naa or sa`nkhaaraa or vi~n~naa.na.m is seen as ruupa.m etc there is no more atta. If ruupa.m etc is overlooked then idea of atta (self) arises. There are three forms to arise sakkaaya-di.t.thi. In the form of ta.nhaa, maana, di.t.thi. > > These sakkaayas are khandhaa. Khandhaa are > > 1. atiita (past) > 2. paccuppanna(present) > 3. anaagata (future) > 4. hiina (lesser) > 5. pa.niita (greater) > 6. o.laarika (rough) > 7. sukhuma (subtle) > 8. bahiddha (outer) > 9. ajjhattika(inner) > 10. duure (far) > 11. santike (near) > > Ruupa.m of these 11, vedanaa of these 11, sa~n~naa of these 11, sa`nkhaara of these 11, and vi~n~naa.na.m of these 11 are called khandhaa. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------- Dear Nina, Htoo, Thanks for the further information. It is useful for all. Regards, Thomas #132365 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 ) sukinderpal Hello Htoo, > Sukin: > Satipatthana is conditioned by one kind of wisdom, the object of which > is characteristic of a reality, and this can even be the > characteristic of one of the five hindrances. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu saraaga.m vaa citta.m saraaga.m cittanti > pajaanaati. Viitaraaga.m vaa citta.m ..... > > 1. saraaga citta.m (kaamacchanda niivara.na) > 2. viitaraaga citta.m (citta free of ta.nhaa/lobha) > > Yes. Niivara.na dhamma can be the object of satipatthana. But not in > advanced stage. > Nivarana dhammas are not a hindrance to a lower level of panna, but they are so to panna of a higher level? Sounds strange. What is the reasoning behind the conclusion? Does not the development of panna make it easier for more subtle akusala to be understood? You actually make it sound as if panna somehow becomes weaker.... > On the way to path, there can be akusala (but subtle ones), even > poor-understanding may be there. Wrong view may be there and view > cannot be completely right. This happens at the high of magga. > When wrong view or any other akusala arises, the panna which arises to know this does so by natural decisive support condition and depends on the accumulated panna. At such moments, the hindrances don't arise to have any influence. Wherefore the need to suppress them by jhana or any other means? And why would you think that the jhana citta suppressing the hindrances are any easier to become object of higher levels of panna than the hindrances? As I said, the one hindrance to Right View is Wrong View. The belief that Jhana is required for higher levels of vipassana is result of wrong view with regard to the nature of Dukkha, the cause of Dukkha and the Path. > Sukin: > The reason that even the hindrances or any akusala can be the object > of Satipatthana is because of the superiority of this kind of > understanding over that of Jhana, and this shows why *it does not > need* the latter's assistance. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not completely right. At least there must be kha.nika samaadhi, > which has the quality of upacaara samaadhi of jhaana. Without samaadhi > panna cannot arise. > Is there not Khanika samadhi at all moments? Does it not perform the same function regardless of what jati the citta is? What makes the samadhi to be of the level of upacara in the development of samatha? Is it not due the repeated experience of the same object, a concept, conditioned by panna of a kind different from that of the Eightfold Path? Or are you of the idea that this quality of concentration somehow transfers its effect into a following citta when it is not jhana anymore? And does it even happen this way during Jhana itself? On the other hand, if you are referring to the intensity of concentration made so by virtue of the accompanying level of samma ditthi, why the need to mention it, after all Samma Ditthi is the forerunner of the Path and this is what some of us have been pointing out all along? > > Enter jhaana. Exit it and contemplate on that. If not close to jhaana > > one who attains will be sukka-vipassakaa. If close to jhaana it is > > yuganaddha-vipassakaa (both concentration and insight). > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > So does a sukkha-vipassaka require any prior practice of samadhi or not? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Require. > Prior in what sense? And how would sukkhavipassaka then be different from enlightenment within the vicinity of Jhana? > Sukin: > And if it requires exiting from jhana for insight to arise, does this > not indicate that the Jhana can't be having any influence on the > insight and whatever the component of jhana that becomes the object, > acts only as object condition? Besides, for those without developed > samma ditthi, is it not inevitable that upon exiting, the Jhana is > taken for "self". > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Up on exit, as you said there is danger of cognizing as atta. > And equally there is a good opportunity to see dhamma. > You mean that even if his panna is not developed, so long as he is developing Jhana, the chance of insight arising is increased by virtue of this other kind of development? What do you understand panna being a sankhara khandha to imply? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: As long as there is niivara.na path-consciousness cannot arise. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Where did you get this idea from? Nivarana are obstacle to samadhi of > samatha practice only. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. > > "Jhaanaadika.m nivaarenti'iti nivara.naani" > > Aadi means 'beginning' 'etc'. > Jhaanaadi means 'jhaana, magga, ...' > Nivaareti means 'to hinder' > I can't make out what you are trying to communicate. Anyway, if you are referring to gotrabhu or some other citta in the process just before magga, of course these must be without Nivarana. But is this what we are discussing?!! Were you not suggesting the need for Jhana practice as means for the arising of this high level of panna!! Or are you now going to say that these other cittas arisen prior to magga are the result of jhana? > Sukin: > The fact that the development of Right Understanding involves coming > to better understand all dhammas including akusala, is evidence that > these nivarana dhammas are not hindrances to the arising of samma > ditthi or panna cetasika, only ignorance of the Dhamma and the > influence of miccha ditthi acts as obstacle. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Not true. For understanding yes. But path cannot arise with > niivara.na. And true satipatthana cannot arise with nivara.na. True > vipassanaa cannot arise with niivara.na. > Let us now first be clear, because you keep moving freely between referring to two cittas arising in succession and to accompanying cetasikas in a single citta. This is confusing the issue and feels almost like eel-wriggling. Of course satipatthana and vipassana cannot have nivarana dhammas arising together. What made you think that I was suggesting this?! We were not talking in terms of accompanying cetasikas arisen with one citta, but jhana citta being needed to suppress the hindrances in order that vipassana or magga follow this citta. So why do you keep telling me that satipatthana and vipassana themselves can't be with nivarana? What I have been telling you is that satipatthana and vipassana can arise immediately after an akusala citta conditioned by any of the hindrances. You on the other hand are saying that this can't happen since the hindrances need to be suppressed first and this is done with the help of Jhana practice. Are we clear now? > Sukin: > > In this regard, the idea that a practice of samadhi to suppress the > hindrances, is required for panna to arise is an obstacle, being that > it is an idea conceived of by wrong understanding of the Dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Samaadhi(jhaana) is required. See the Buddha's words. > > Majjhima nikaaya: uparipannaasa: indriyabhaavanaa sutta.m > > "Jhaayatha! (do jhaana),Aananda, maa pamaadattha. Maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha. Aya.m vo amhaaka.m anusaasanii." > > Whether you accept or not is not my part. > Accept what? I accept the Four Noble Truths, the Fourth being the Noble Eightfold Path. I also accept that the Buddha rejected Jhana as being the Path. I accept that it is the stuff of samsara. I also accept that several concentration practices were cited in the Brahmajala Sutta as wrong view. So when the Buddha advised Ananda to "do Jhana" this must be reference to the level of samadhi accompanying vipassana where the object is one of the three characteristics of a paramattha dhamma. You on the other hand, do not want to take this latter into consideration and instead, want to promote the very practice the Buddha rejected as possibly leading to enlightenment. Jhana is kusala, but it is no more a factor of the Path than say, Dana. Much better that a person sees value in everyday kusala than want to develop Jhana. To think to develop it with the belief that the Buddha recommended it as part of the Path, makes it even worse. > Sukin: > Where is it mentioned that the other factors are not pre-path and > samma samadhi is? What I know is that five or six of the factors arise > (together) during lokiya moments and all eight do so during lokuttara. > Anyway, the question is, if the Buddha put them all together, why do > you choose to take a particular one out to give it special > significance in terms of being a practice on its own? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There 3 viratii cetasikas. They cannot arise together in lokiya kusala > cittas. Only one in one occasion. At the time when vipassanaa is > developing there is nothing to do with these 3 viratii cetasikas. > > For sammaa-ditthi one has to study as much as possible. > > 1. suneyya (should listen to dhamma) > 2. cinteyya(should consider on what is heard or read) > 3. puccheyya(should ask to someone who knows dhamma) > 4. bhaaseyya(should discuss, should speak) > 5. likkheyya(should write down and learn) > 6. sikkheyya(should practice, should *do*) > 7. dhaareyya(should bring dhamma in hand) > Is number 1 for example, any more or less of a *doing* than number 6? Metta, Sukin #132366 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:04 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Thanks fot your reply. > > > ... But at 1st Buddhists' Council abhidhamma was recorded. There are 7 texts. ... > > Could you indicate what are the 7 texts? > > Thanks. > > Regards, > > Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Thomas, The first Buddhists' Council was held 4 months after parinibbbaana of the Buddha at Rajagaraha, the country which was ruled by King Ajaatasattu (A (no) + jaata (born) + sattu (enemy) ) near Vebhaara Mountain in Sattapa.n.na cave. Costs were sponsered by the King, who was given 'etadagga.m in loving the Buddha'. The reason to hold the Council (Sa`ngaayanaa) was that there had been danger to Buddha's saasanaa (the Buddha teachings and the part of Buddha's disciples). Mahaa Kassapa was away when the Buddha passed away. When M.Kassapa came to Kusinnaara, where the Buddha did parinibbaana, he met a paribbaajaka and that man informed that the Buddha passed away 7 days ago. There were 500 disciples with M. Kassapa. One of the monks was Subadda. He had been hair-dresser. Along with his two sons, hair-dressers, he entered the saasana. Once he arranged a big feeds for the Buddha and his disciples. But the Buddha when came, did not accept his offerings. Because food was not according to vinaya rules. Since then Subadda was against the Buddha in his mind. At receiving the news he was happy and announced he no more needed to listen what the Buddha taught. M. Kassapa then arranged for very 1st Council. M. Kassapa ordered to organize "pa.tisambhidaapatta , sa.laabhi~n~na arahatta monks. There were 499 arahats in Kusinnaara. They were assigned as members of 1st Council even though there were many many arahats in the continent. One post was left for Aanandaa. Because Aanandaa was not yet arahat at that time. Aananda was the bank of Buddha's teaching and he was necessary in this Council. Later jst before the Council was started Aananda became an arahat with "pa.tisambhidaa" and 'sa.laabhi~n~naa'. Those with adhisiilaa who become arahats have "tevijjaa" that is three ~naa.naa (pubbenivaasaanussati, dibbacakkhu, aasavakkhaya). Those with adhisiila and adhicitta (samaadhi) become "sa.laabhi~n~naa". Those with adhisiila, adhicitta, and adhipa~n~naa become "pa.tisambhidaapatta-sa.laabhi~n~naa". Then Aanandaa became a member. The Council was started with reciting on Vinaya first as they all agree that Vinaya is the life of the Buddha's saasanaa. The Questioner was M. Kassapa and the Answerer was Upaali. After that "Dhamma" was recited. The Q was M. Kassapa and the A was Aanandaa. The longest sutta.ms were put into diigha nikaaya. 3 sections and 3 texts in total. Siilakkhandha vagga, mahaavagga, and paatheyya vagga. There were a total of 34 suttams. Middle-lengthed sutta.ms were put into Majjhima nikaaya. There are 3 sections and 3 texts. They were Muulapa.n.naasa, Majjhimapa.n.naasa, and uparipa.n.naasa. Pa.n.naasa means 50. Muula pa.n.naasa has 50 sutta.ms, majjhima has 50 but uparipa.n.naasa has 52 sutta.ms. Sa.myutta nikaaya was like encyclopedia of Buddha's teaching. There are 5 texts. A`nguttara nikaaya has 11 texts. All these 4 nikaayas were put into pi.taka called 'a basket of sutta.ms'. Or suttanta-pi.taka. But there were so many other samll and short sutta.ms. They all were put into as 'Khuddaka nikaaya'. The very fist basket or pi.taka was "Vinaya Pi.taka" 5 texts. The second basket was "Suttanta Pi.taka". There were 4 nikaayas. Khuddaka nikaaya was also put into pi.taka. In khuddaka nikaaya there were 15 texts and all were the Buddha's words. Suttasa`ngaha was summary of the Buddha teachings and it can be called 'the Buddha's teachings or words' even though it was arranged by arahats. Netti texts was preached by 'etadagga' Mahaa Kiccaayana. It can also be assumed as 'the Buddha teachings'. Pe.takopadesa (pi.taka + upadesa) was also arranged by arahats and the text can also be assumed as the Buddha teachings. Milinda Pa~nhaa arised at a later date. These 4 texts were not in khuddaka nikaaya originally. This is not adding to Buddha's teaching. Satthaa or teacher is "Dhamma and Vinaya" as dictated by the Buddha on his final day. Vinaya is in Vinaya Pi.taka and Dhamma can be seen in '4 Nikaayas'. Small and short teachings were put into Khuddaka nikaaya. They are not main teachings'. After nikaayas were arranged and cited there came the turn of Abhidhamma. In this pi.taka the teachings were not like sutta.ms. They all were not affixed with "eva.m me suta.m" "Thus have I heard" by Aananda even though all were cited by Aanandaa at the council. There are a total of 7 sections. 1. Dhammasa`nga.nii 2. Vibhi`nga 3. Dhaatukathaa 4. Puggalapa~n~natti 5. Kathaavatthu 6. Yamaka 7. Pa.t.thaana Kathavatthu in origin was like summary. Just before 3rd Council texts became defiled by 'other belivers' who wore robes and behaved as Buddhist monks. So Thera did not do 'uposatha siima citation'. This was informed to the King Ashoka or Aasoka after 7 years. Because of defilements in view, Kathaavattu was extensively explained by Baddanta Moggaliputtatissa (the president of 3rd Council). But Kathaavatthu is still like original one and all can be assumed as the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha's teachings were " Dhamma & Vinaya ". Vinaya is the life of Buddhism. So the members at 1st Council decided to recite first on Vinaya. Vinaya is for monks (and female monks or nuns). But teachings in Vinaya have sound basis for attaing arahat-ship. This is two divisions method. The Buddha's teaching were "Tipi.taka" or 3 baskets of teachings. They are 1. Suttanta Pi.taka 2. Vinaya Pi.taka 3. Abhidhamma Pi.taka Here "Dhamma" was recorded with '4 nikaayas' of diigha, majjhima, sa.myutta, a`nguttara. All small teachings were put into Khuddaka nikaaya. Abhidhamma was cited at 3rd council. But the Buddha did not preach for the third time. There was no one who became arahat after learning abhidhamma with the exception of 500 disciples of Saariputta. After "Dhamma & Vinaya" were recorded, abhidhamma was recited one text after another. So according to '3 division' method the Buddha teachings were 'Tipi.taka'. The Buddha's teachings were 5 nikaayas. They are diiga, majjhima, sa.myutta, a`nguttara, and khuddaka nikaaya. "Dhamma" is in 4 nikaayas. According to '5 divisions' method the Buddha teachings were 5 nikaayas. Here 'Vinaya' and 'Abhidhamma' were put into Khuddaka nikaaya to inculde in 5 nikaaya. There still is 9 division method. According to 'dhammakkhandhaa' there are a total of 84,000 dhammakkhandhaa in Buddha's teachings. They are 21,000 vinaya and 21,00 suttanta, and 42,000 abhidhammaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 7 texts of abhidhammaa are 1. dhammasa`nga.nii 2. vibhinga 3. dhaatukathaa 4. puggalapa~n~nati 5. kathaavatthu 6. yamaka 7. pa.t.thaana In Pa.t.thaana there are 24 separate texts. These 24 patthana texts were published in 5 thick books. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132367 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:56 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > >J: The notion that anyone who became enlightened without first >attaining jhana must have attained jhana in a previous lifetime is pure >speculation (and a desperate attempt at fitting the texts to a held >view -- or what you refer to later in your message as "making up false >issues to prove a philosophical predisposition" :-)) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > If one needs to attain N8P for stream entry, then one needs to attain 4 jhanas which form 8th part of N8P called samma-samadhi. > > No need to mention Jhanas because it is assumed whenever N8P is mentioned. > > With best wishes, > > Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Alex and all, When talk on jhaana it is necessary to know what jhaana means, what jhaana is, what required to attain jhaana, what to avoid, what to fulfill, how to maintain, how to up the proficiency and so on. The problem is that jhaana is frequently confused with miracle things. NEP does have samma-samaadhi. It has jhaana quality. No one can be reborn in brahma realm without any jhaana. But anaagaamii without jhaana are always always reborn in brahma realm. This means that anaagaami-magga require jhaana quality. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132368 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, > .... > Htoo: ... After nikaayas were arranged and cited there came the turn of Abhidhamma. In this pi.taka the teachings were not like sutta.ms. They all were not affixed with "eva.m me suta.m" "Thus have I heard" by Aananda even though all were cited by Aanandaa at the council. There are a total of 7 sections. > > ... > The Buddha's teachings were " Dhamma & Vinaya ". ... > Were the 7 sections agreeded by the first council? (Note: According to Vinaya, Cullavagga XI, it mentions only Dhamma and Vinaya in the first council). Regards, Thomas #132369 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:15 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada htoonaing... Ken H: Hi Htoo, ----- <. . .> > KH: he does not accept anatta. <. . .> >> H: :-) I do accept 'anicca'. ---- KH: That was not the reaction I was expecting. :-) ------------- <. . .> > H: There seem 'lost a linkage'. The Buddha did not directly teach 'anatta'. -------------- KH: That strikes me as a very strange thing to say. I assume you have some obscure text-based reasons for saying it, but I am not an expert on the texts. Therefore, I was very glad to see that Nina had already responded on that point. -------------------- <. . .> > H: Sammaa-chanda does work. > "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". ----------- <. . .> > H: As long as there is wanting (lobha) siila or samaadhi or pa~n~naa will not work for liberation. ----------- KH: I don't know why you have put it that way. Why didn't you say, 'As long as there is wanting (lobha) there cannot be dana, sila, samatha or vipasana'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Daana is kusala. But after offerings daana some are thinking the results of it like to be reborn in deva realm, to be rich etc. So this daana is mixed with akusala. When the result come it cannot be pure. Today anyone on this earth does not have all the goodness from birth to death. Even in a day there are mixed thing. Even though daana itself is kusala it can become va.t.ta-daana or daana that is to take rounds in the samsaraa. Siila is also kusala. But akusala can arise from that siila. See paccaya. Samatha and vipassana are also kusala. But the moments of kusala can be mixed with akusala-lobha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: You seem to be saying there can be some kind of kusala with lobha (!) even though it might not be the kind of kusala that will "work for liberation." (?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: See above. It has been explained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: But if 'wanting' is not lobha and it is associated with viva.t.ta-pa~n~naa then that 'wanting' is 'sammaa-chanda'. > Sammaa-chanda does work. > "Someone is wanting and trying to be sin-free trying to be calm trying to see dhamma trying to see nibbana" is nothing to do with "self". --------------------- KH: We can't have it both ways. Lobha can't play the role of samma-chanda. When we want to be a better person (a better atta) who is calm and can practise vipassana, that is lobha and atta-ditthi. It is not samma-chanda. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Chanda is a cetasika. It belongs to paki.n.naka cetasika of a~n~nasamaana cetasikas. A~n~na = other, samaana = agree(here), same, identical, similar A~n~nasamaana = cetasikas that agree with akusala and also agree with kusala and also agree with abyaakata dhamma (not akusala not kusala). Vitakka (initial application), vicaara (sustained application), viriya (effort), piiti (likeness), chanda (mere-wanting), adhimokkha (decision). These 6 cetasikas can arise along with kusala-cittas, akusala-cittas, and abyaakata-cittas while 1.phassa(contact), 2.vedanaa(feeling),3. cetanaa(volition), 4. sa~n~naa(perception), 5. ekaggataa (one-pointedness), 6. jiivitindriya (life-faculty), and 7. manasikaara (attention) are 7 cetasikas that arise along with each and every citta that arises. When there is lobha, there always is chanda. But when there is chanda there may or may not be lobha in that particular citta. As chanda can arise with kusala there is chanda in kusala (daana, siila, samatha, vipassanaa) and there is no lobha. There are lobha, sammaa-lobha, sama-lobha, visama-lobha. Visama-lobha is the worst. Lobha is akusala cetasika. If it arises the citta is called lobha-citta (citta in isolation is pure). Not all lobha are kamma-patha. Those who are not ariyaa cannot be free from lobha. Lobha only stops to arise after arising of arahatta-magga ~naa.na. So no need to be afraid of lobha. Lobha is daily matter. I am presenting that lobha is very very common. Even sotapannaa can have lobha. Sakadaagaamii also have lobha. Anaagaamii also have lobha. Why so frightened to lobha, which is only eradicated by arahats? With Metta, Htoo Naing #132370 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:47 pm Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, > ... > According to 'dhammakkhandhaa' there are a total of 84,000 dhammakkhandhaa in Buddha's teachings. They are 21,000 vinaya and 21,00 suttanta, and 42,000 abhidhammaa. ... Could you explain what is the text 'dhammakkhandhaa' (its location in the Pali texts)? Regards, Thomas #132371 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:37 pm Subject: Re: Manly discussion ptaus1 Hi Nina and Htoo, Thanks for your replies. > > N: The Vis. V, 13, gives examples. There is more to it. Red colour stands for blood, blue for hairs, yellow or white for bones? Yes, Vis V, 13 states: "One who is learning the blue kasina apprehends the sign in blue, whether in a flower or in a cloth or in a color element." I guess any object corresponding to the color of the kasina can be considered in terms of the kasina rather than the object itself - like in the example of a bhikkhu considering the skeleton (as his object of samatha) in someone approaching rather than considering if the person approaching is male or female for example. Best wishes pt #132372 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:28 pm Subject: of interest to some rjkjp1 an interesting blog on the perils of attachment to a regime http://www.zenwakeup.com/ #132373 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:30 pm Subject: Re: khanika (momentary) samadhi rjkjp1 thanks phil you might remember this reply toyou from ven. dhammandando on another site http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...t=0#entry917315 From Dhammanando Bhikkhu Hi Phil, QUOTE QUOTE(phil7 @ Mar 29 2008, 07:16 PM) This is something that I have meant to get around to for awhile - tracking down just what khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) is in the tipitaka. The term is actually from the commentaries. QUOTE QUOTE Is it the ekagatta cetasika, the split second one-pointedness on each and every object that is cognized, or is it something that, as a post from the Venerable who sends the daily Dhamma message says "a few seconds of one-pointedness" that comes about as the first stage of deepening of concentration. (Before access concentration etc.) I've heard other people, including Bhikkhu Bodhi refer to it in this way, as a few seconds of concentration, but some friends who are keen students of Abhidhamma say it is simply ekagatta cetasika, accompanies each and every citta. The commentaries speak of "threefold concentration" (tividha samadhi), comprising momentary concentration, approach concentration, and arrival concentration. The second and third of these are meditative attainments; the first is the ordinary concentration that is always present, which the Abhidhamma identifies with the ekaggata cetasika. That being so, the widespread modern practice of exhorting meditators to "develop momentary concentration", if taken literally, is simply nonsensical. It would be as meaningless as telling someone to develop phassa, or develop vedana, or develop saa (which like ekaggata also arise with every consciousness). It's meaningless to speak of "developing" something that one is never without. More charitably construed, the modern usage might be seen as a shorthand for "develop the foundations of mindfulness, but without aiming for upacara- or appana-samadhi." I believe this is in fact what most modern vipassana teachers mean by the expression. All the same, it's unfortunate that they have chosen this way of saying it, for it has given rise to an almost universal misapprehension of kha?ika-samadhi as being something that one has to strive to achieve. Best wishes, Dhammanando Bhikkhu --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Dear Robert, group > > Thanks for explanation on khanika samadhi. Of course it wall fall on deaf ears. People want samadhi to be something they can sit and make happen. So the example of the criminal picking a lock is wuite suitable. Wrong concentration, rooted in greed fo gains. (Interesting how it is theeight worldly conditions that fuel the meditation industry.) > > Now I have finished taking care of my Dad's breakfast and it is time for me to sit snd create pleasant mental/physical states by exploiting "the breath" with greed for comfort. > Maybe I'll even gain "access concentration." (@_@) > > > Phil > #132374 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:47 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. truth_aerator Dear Htoo, all, >When talk on jhaana it is necessary to know what jhaana means, what ?>jhaana is, what required to attain jhaana, what to avoid, what to >fulfill, how to maintain, how to up the proficiency and so on. > >... But anaagaamii without jhaana are always always reborn in brahma >realm. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree that what exactly jhana means is open to debate. Some teacgers claim that 5 senses totally shut down, some do not. However, there is a problem claiming that aryan didn't attain (attained, not necessary mastered) Jhana. N8P has 8 factors, not 7, or even worse, 1 With best wishes, Alex #132375 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:15 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Robert) - > > Jon, you wrote "There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a)seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments." Why was the Buddha so apparently foolish to *praise* one for having attained certain abilities entirely not due to intentional efforts of theirs? (Seriously!) > =============== J: When the Buddha praised, or encouraged his followers to appreciate, attainments in others, it was the kusala attainment rather than the individual that was to be the object of appreciation/praise. Similarly, the recollections on the Buddha and the Sangha, as subjects of contemplation for samatha development, are recollections on the virtues of the Buddha and of those beings who have become enlightened, rather than on individuals. The question of the role of intentional effort in the development of those attainments/qualities is a separate matter that is raised more squarely in you next comment. > =============== > HCW: Relatedly, why do you seem to believe that intentional action for a worthy goal is either reprehensible or useless or impossible. That is, why do you have no use for kusala kamma and expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose? > =============== J: Thanks for bringing up this question. It's an important point, and one that we've touched on before but not fully discussed. Let's begin by clarifying what is meant by "intentional action for a worthy goal" or "expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose". Are you referring to actual kusala, or are you referring to an intention or effort that precedes the arising of actual kusala. Perhaps an example or two would help. Thanks. > =============== > HCW: (If I'm incorrect in my presumptions here, then I apologize.) > =============== J: Rest assured I'm not denying kusala kamma! Jon #132376 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:28 pm Subject: Re: Manly discussion htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Nina and Htoo, > > Thanks for your replies. > > > > N: The Vis. V, 13, gives examples. There is more to it. Red colour stands for blood, blue for hairs, yellow or white for bones? > > > Yes, Vis V, 13 states: > "One who is learning the blue kasina apprehends the sign in blue, whether in a flower or in a cloth or in a color element." > > I guess any object corresponding to the color of the kasina can be considered in terms of the kasina rather than the object itself - like in the example of a bhikkhu considering the skeleton (as his object of samatha) in someone approaching rather than considering if the person approaching is male or female for example. > > Best wishes > pt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear pt, Nina and all, There is more about kasi.na in mahaanidaana sutta.m in the portion of a.t.thavimokkhaa or 8 liberations. Ruupii ruupaani passati, aya.m pa.thamo vimokkho... With Metta, Htoo Naing #132377 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:07 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Jon (and Robert) - > > > > Jon, you wrote "There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a)seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments." Why was the Buddha so apparently foolish to *praise* one for having attained certain abilities entirely not due to intentional efforts of theirs? (Seriously!) > > =============== > > J: When the Buddha praised, or encouraged his followers to appreciate, attainments in others, it was the kusala attainment rather than the individual that was to be the object of appreciation/praise. ------------------------------ HCW: Well, I hope that attainment appreciated the praise! ;-)) ------------------------------- > > Similarly, the recollections on the Buddha and the Sangha, as subjects of contemplation for samatha development, are recollections on the virtues of the Buddha and of those beings who have become enlightened, rather than on individuals. > > The question of the role of intentional effort in the development of those attainments/qualities is a separate matter that is raised more squarely in you next comment. > > > =============== > > HCW: Relatedly, why do you seem to believe that intentional action for a worthy goal is either reprehensible or useless or impossible. That is, why do you have no use for kusala kamma and expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose? > > =============== > > J: Thanks for bringing up this question. It's an important point, and one that we've touched on before but not fully discussed. > > Let's begin by clarifying what is meant by "intentional action for a worthy goal" or "expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose". Are you referring to actual kusala, or are you referring to an intention or effort that precedes the arising of actual kusala. Perhaps an example or two would help. Thanks. -------------------------------- HCW: My introspection is generally pretty good, but this detail may exceed it. I'm afraid that I am simply speaking in a casual way of wholesome intention aimed at conditioning beneficial consequences. ---------------------------------- > > > =============== > > HCW: (If I'm incorrect in my presumptions here, then I apologize.) > > =============== > > J: Rest assured I'm not denying kusala kamma! ------------------------------- HCW: Well, that's very good, Jon! ;-) -------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132378 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:24 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) htoonaing... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > > ... > > According to 'dhammakkhandhaa' there are a total of 84,000 dhammakkhandhaa in Buddha's teachings. They are 21,000 vinaya and 21,00 suttanta, and 42,000 abhidhammaa. ... > > Could you explain what is the text 'dhammakkhandhaa' (its location in the Pali texts)? > > Regards, > > Thomas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Thomas, It is not a text. It is dhamma unit. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132379 From: "Robert E" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:20 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon - hard to unwind the differences in emphases and interpretations of basic elements of Dhamma that occur in our conversations, but I guess that's what makes for a good dice game... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > RE: Although I would agree with you that there are suttas that indicate that there were monks or lay people who reached enlightenment after hearing the Buddha preach the Dhamma [and the skill in his knowing exactly what to say that you mentioned recently is not incidental to this] the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "the great bulk of his followers, if not all of them, already had extensive jhana practice", I am not aware of any basis for this assertion in the teachings. It certainly is not something said by the Buddha, nor is it mentioned in the commentaries. > > If you are drawing a conclusion from a reading of the suttas as a whole, I can only say it must be a very selective reading :-)) It probably is a selective readings, since I'm not amazingly well-read, to say the least. However, I am surprised if you doubt the idea that jhana was a very normal aspect of the monks' practice during the time of the Buddha, and has been a major element of monastic life in Buddhist monasteries all around the world ever since. Do you indeed doubt that this is so? The suttas that are directed to lay people are much less likely to assume a knoweldge or practice of jhana, but I still think it is fair to say -- if you doubt the "vast majority" idea -- that jhana was a normal and expected part of a monk's life. It doesn't have to be explicitly mentioned in every sutta, since the references to meditative concentration/jhana that *are* made mention it being a basic aspect of a monk's practice. I won't try to give a reference at the moment, but if you object to this characterization I will try to find something. > ... I'd be surprised if you're able to find any sequence of suttas that tends to bear out your assertion that most if not all of the Buddha's followers had extensive jhana practice. I don't think that the number of times such a thing is asserted within a given number of suttas is really relevant to how many monks were practicing/attaining jhana, except for those suttas where it is relevant. For instance, if a sutta were about right livelihood for householders, it would not be necessary to talk about jhana in such a sutta. There are many, many suttas where obviously the mention of jhana is not particularly relevant. When talking about the steps of the path, jhana is very often mentioned as a necessary element, and there are suttas in which Right Concentration is directly defined as Jhana by the Buddha. So when Right Concentration is defined, one may substitute jhana in those passages. Even in discussions of Dry Insight, it is said that jhana of the correct level must arise in order for the enlightenment sequence to take place. so Jhana is Right Concnetration, Right Concentration is Jhana, and one way or another it is an essential element of Enlightenment and the path. The Buddha practiced it, extolled it, taught it, and employed it in the most important stages of his personal career - reaching Enlightenment, and in his Parinibbana. It's a big part of Buddhism, and certainly those who practiced under him during his life, and witnessed his Parinibbana, understood Jhana as an essential and normal part of their culture and tradition. I find it hard to believe that those who witnessed the Buddha's parinibbana from the 4th jhana, and who knew that he reached his enlightenemnt in and through jhana, would think that it was an incidental attainment that no one else should bother to develop. The fact that you are now treating it as a non-essential part of the Buddhist tradition and perhaps one not practiced by many monks, or practiced by them incorrectly when they shouldn't bother, seems odd to me to say the least. I don't know what the definitions of Traditional and Orthodox should mean, if they don't include those elements of practice that the Buddha himself made full use of, taught and extolled, from the very founding of the tradition itself, and which still exist today in monasteries around the world. > > =============== > > RE: I would also agree that even the ability to reach jhana through practice would involve past life accumulations and it is also equally possible that those who reach enlightenment through hearing the Buddha preach may very well have developed accumulations of jhana in past lives as well, so that they had the necessary requirements to go over the threshold, so to speak. > > =============== > > J: The notion that anyone who became enlightened without first attaining jhana must have attained jhana in a previous lifetime is pure speculation Well perhaps I've got that wrong, but it is how I understood the ability to reach or practice jhana in this lifetime according to you. Maybe I misunderstood what you said in the past. In any case, it's not that crucial. What's important to me is that jhana was practiced, developed and maintained as a critical element of the path ["Right Concentration" is defined as Jhana by the Buddha in sutta,] and that anyone who attains enlightenment must, at the very least, go through Jhana in order to complete the enlightenment sequence. I do recall you saying that the ability to attain jhana in general comes from past-life accumulations. Am I wrong about that too? > (and a desperate attempt at fitting the texts to a held view -- Really? Are you sure the reason I brought that up was out of desperation to support my view? Seriously that is quite an assumption on your part. I don't feel desperate at all. I feel my view is supported by the Buddha and the scriptures where I have seen it discussed, as well as the body of Buddhist practice throughout the centuries. The past-life accumulations is certainly not my main point. Dry insight is supposed to have its own conditions for jhana to arise, whether based on past accumulations or not. Anyway, it's not necessary to attribute desperation to my point in order to make your point. If I find myself panting and hysterical over this discussion, I'll let you know, or call the doctor for the sedative. > or what you refer to later in your message as "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition" :-)) I will just note that calling something a false issue is a little bit different from accusing someone of being desperate, but no problem. You may refer to me as battered and tormented too if you would like. :-) This issue does torture me, it's true. ... > J: Regarding your point that "[meditation] was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation", you seem to be proposing a line of authority that is oral and not recorded in the Pali Canon. Uh...no, I'm taking a look around the world at the unbroken tradition of meditation that exists. Every Buddhist culture that was started by the Buddha has a meditation tradition. I don't think the Khmers or the traditional people of Thailand or many other places had anapanasati and samatha practices before Buddhism came to town, but they sure did after they became Buddhists! Do you think all those Buddhist cultures around the world mistakenly added meditation to teir Buddhist practice, or do you think it was because that is what they were taught by their Buddhist teachers from the very beginning? It's the latter. I don't need an oral record. Today's Buddhists and their unbroken tradition of practice are living proof. > Again, pure speculation (and desparation!). I guess it's also pure speculation that Catholics practice Mass? Buddhist meditation is observable everywhere, it doesn't require any speculation at all. I wonder who's really desperate here. It's not me! :-) > And of course incapable of being verified; would have to be taken on faith. If you do a tour of Buddhist monasteries around the world, you'll find Buddhist meditation being taught everywhere. Many of them practice samatha meditation and aspire to jhana. I guess they're all deluded and desperate and you're not. I think the theory that by waiting for dhammas to accumulate all by themselves without any practice one will attain enlightenment aeons from now is a lot more speculative than what we can actually see, hear, read about and practice now. > > =============== > > RE: Buddha himself was a jhana master, and it was not incidental to his teaching - he was enlightened while practicing jhana at the base of the Bodhi tree, and he entered his parinibbana from the 4th jhana after running the gamut of jhanas up and down the scale. Do you think this was a coincidence, or that the Buddha just wanted to show off his knowledge of jhanas before retiring from this reality? > > =============== > > J: Yes, the Buddha was highly skilled in jhana, and entered jhana etc. before his enlightenment and parinibbaana. > > But the question that needs to be considered is whether the attainment of jhana (or some particular level of samatha) is a necessary prerequisite to the development of insight at beginning levels. That's not the only question. The main question here is whether meditation was practiced by the Buddha and his monks and disciples in order to develop samatha and satipatthana as a purposeful practice, and whether this is a legitimate Buddhist practice that is still being taught today in an unbroken tradition started by the Buddha; whether or not there are other ways of developing the path -- dry insight; everyday awareness of dhammas, etc. > And for that we need to look at what the Buddha actually said on the matter. And did. And taught. The Buddha speaks about such practice in many suttas, teaches how to use such practice correctly to develop samatha and sati, and extols such practice. So of course he did teach and talk about it, as well as practice it himself. A glance at the anapanasati sutta or satipatthana sutta will prove this. > To date you have not quoted any passage where the Buddha speaks about the necessary conditions for (a) developing awareness and (b) attaining enlightenment. Development of requisite samatha and satipatthana are among the necessary attainments. If you want to talk about other necessary conditions, I'll be happy to discuss them. I'll leave it to you to bring them up. I certainly agree that hearing the Dhamma properly explained is one of them, but what "properly explained" means would clearly require an extensive discussion. :-) Best, Rob E. = = = = = = = = = = = #132380 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:35 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Htoo, ---- > H: I am presenting that lobha is very very common. Even sotapannaa can have lobha. Sakadaagaamii also have lobha. Anaagaamii also have lobha. Why so frightened to lobha, which is only eradicated by arahats? --- KH: Thanks for your explanations; they bring us back to our main point of discussion. You think the Buddha taught a set of instructions, and I think the Buddha taught a description of ultimate reality. You can't explain why the instructions are not in the Pali canon, and why it was left to the Burmese sayadaws 2000 years later to formulate them. I remember you once told me it was Ven Ananda's fault that the instructions were accidentally omitted from the Tipitaka. Anyway, it's good to emerge from the smokescreen occasionally and to remember the main issue. We are not talking about whether lobha is very common. The only reason we mentioned lobha was to ask whether the desire to follow a set of instructions was kusala or akusala. Ken H #132381 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:44 pm Subject: Re: of interest to some philofillet Dealr Robert Thanks for the link to the blog, I read one post, on the way we create and latch on to identifites related to Dhamma. For example, valuingbourselves as long-time non drinkers. The writer points out that we don't drink cuz we fear what we might do due to delusions created by drinking, but what about the delusion of feeling superior, that identity as a superior self, not much concern about THAT delusion. God to know thereis kusala calm with *any* moment of kusala. Let that be our reward rather than taking pride in the behaviour itself and the story about a person doing this or that. The true Dhamma cuts deeper, to tye paramattha. Phil #132382 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:53 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James Thank you for you comment. It's been interesting to discuss with you. I'd like to reply you some comments as follows: > James: .......I am reminded of after the Buddha became enlightened and he was wary of teaching the Dhamma to others because of thedifficulty involved. Then a god from a deva heaven came to him and reminded him that there are "those but with little dust in their eyes". So, whenever I get really frustrated with the KS group I try to remind myself "There are those with little dust in their eyes". JK: I think you get wrong impression here. In TA Sujin's group, everyone knows very well how difficult and subtle dhamma of the Lord Buddha is. No one gets wrong idea that he or she has little dust in the eyes or has accumulated enough wisdom to attain enlightenment with only listening or studying dhamma. The group, however, would like to present right understanding that, to develop wisdom, there must be gradual development which begins with wisdom from studying as suttamaya panna first and then cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna successively. The development of each level of panna never jumble up. Since Buddha time passed 2,600 years and considering different skillful of understanding and ignorance among generations, it is obvious that people in this generation should studies Buddha teaching very very carefully to develop firm suttamaya panna. No one should not take dhamma for granted. For example, in Pali, the word "metta" has several meanings; loving-kindness, friendliness, goodwill, benevolence, fellowship, amity, concord, inoffensiveness and non-violence. Metta can be defined as the strong wish for the welfare and happiness of others. And in AN 4.125 PTS: A ii 128 Metta Sutta: Loving-kindness (1) translated from the Pali by anamoli Thera) "Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world..." Anyone can read and understand the meaning of the word "metta" through explanation in above sutta or texts but how much it reflect reality for understanding of actual circumstance in daily life or just only the word in the books. When you see someone help others, even just very trivia matter, it always reflects metta. Little by little of understanding metta will lead us to develop more and more of metta in our daily life. Metta arises for us to aware of its reality as wholesome citta which brings joyful and pleasant moment. The more metta we accumulate, the more attachment to self we eradicate. (I remember you talk about Phil's metta to you in recent post, for example) That is the headway toward what mentioned in the sutta; "...he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world." This is the partly explicit explanation of Suttamaya panna development when theoretical understanding appreciable to reality happen in that moment. Cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna will develop step by step after firm and extensive development of suttamaya panna. The development of complete wisdom, however, takes long long time, not in this life or several lives even eon because we've being accumulated ignorance for long long time, even now !!. We just have ton of dust in our eyes. There is the chinese motto expressing that "Knowing yourself and the enemy, you win a thousand wars." This expression shall be applied here. If we're not able to know the nature of our ignorance and defilement and how much we've been accumulated, we never find the right way to manage and eradicate them. In some circumstance, we maybe slip to join them, thinking that we're trying to get away from defilement. ============================== >James: .... So, whenever I get really frustrated with the KS group I try to remind myself "There are those with little dust in their eyes". and I trust they feel the same way about me. :-) JK: I don't know but I wish you find the right way to keep the dust out of your eye, not putting it in !! =========================== > > JK: Sound like someone I has introduced you lately :) > James: Who is that??? I have not been specifically inspired by anyone lately. My absolute hatred and revulsion of the commentaries goes back a very long time...years in fact. Just ask Sarah and Jon. :-) JK: I talked about the monk in Thailand, who propagates his view of sticking only to the Buddha words and ignoring all other followers; Ananda, Sariputra, Mokkallana etc. including Abhidhamma and all commentaries ever. And you mention something about rebel of this as well, remember?. ============================== > James:.... At that time, the Sangha was filled with unworthy monks. So, in essence, the commentaries could be the writings of madmen. ............In my estimation, they are full of so many lies and false views that they aren't worth anyone's time at all! They are terrible and evil to me. JK: Wow ! This comment turns me upside down to think that the whole Councils who sorted out Tipitaka and commentaries are unorthodox themselves. How can that be? Metta, metta and metta !!! Jagkrit #132383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:26 pm Subject: T.A. alive on Sunday. nilovg Dear Jagkrit and friends, T.A. alive on Sunday. Questioner: T.A.: < Pa~n~naa should know this, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. Hoping and expecting is not self, it is the origin of dukkha (dukkha samudaya, the second noble Truth). All dhammas are equal in as far as they are just elements. If they are not realized as such we take them for self. All of them should be known. Hardness appears and it is experienced but there is no understanding of it. It is only hardness and it arises just for a moment and it falls away. It seems that we are seeing all the time, but there are many other cittas arising in between (during the process of cittas that expperience visible object). Seeing is vipaaka, result of kamma and it is different from lobha, attachment. This is not theory, it is not in the book. Clinging and seeing appear and it is not necessary to call them by name as cause and result. Citta is accompanied by cetasikas but it is not necessary to call them cetasikas. If there are no conditions seeing cannot arise and it should be understood as non-self, anattaa. Condition, paccaya, is not just a name. Studying the Dhamma means developing understanding of it. Which colour do you like?> Answer: T.A.: < This is object predominance-condition and decisive support condition of object. The accumulations of people are different.The accumulations are non-self, they are sankkhaarakandha, the khandha of formations. We have to understand it as dhamma, it has conditions. Even doubt should be seen as a dhamma that has been accumulated.> ---- Nina. #132384 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:25 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, It has been very pleasant discussing the Dhamma with you also. I am going to reply in-text (but be warned that there are going to be a lot of little replies because you bring up a lot of different issues...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > Thank you for you comment. It's been interesting to discuss with you. I'd like to reply you some comments as follows: > > > James: .......I am reminded of after the Buddha became enlightened and he was wary of teaching the Dhamma to others because of thedifficulty involved. Then a god from a deva heaven came to him and reminded him that there are "those but with little dust in their eyes". So, whenever I get really frustrated with the KS group I try to remind myself "There are those with little dust in their eyes". > > JK: I think you get wrong impression here. In TA Sujin's group, everyone knows very well how difficult and subtle dhamma of the Lord Buddha is. No one gets wrong idea that he or she has little dust in the eyes or has accumulated enough wisdom to attain enlightenment with only listening or studying dhamma. > James: Well, that isn't what I think the meaning of "little dust in the eyes means". I think it only means that you need to have Right View or a close approximation of Right View...then you have but little dust in your eyes. It doesn't mean that you can become enlightened at the drop of a hat!!!. The Buddha didn't teach only those who became instantly enlightened after listening to him. You seem to have a really severe and strict interpretation of the history of the Buddha. > The group, however, would like to present right understanding that, to develop wisdom, there must be gradual development which begins with wisdom from studying as suttamaya panna first and then cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna successively. The development of each level of panna never jumble up. > James: I really don't understand this. I don't know the differences between suttamaya, cintamaya, and bhavanamaya panna (My Pali is very limited). But I don't think I really need to know. Just like above, it sounds like an extraneous complication where there is no need for one. You just have to ask yourself: is this something the Buddha taught? If not, then it isn't necessary. . > Since Buddha time passed 2,600 years and considering different skillful of understanding and ignorance among generations, it is obvious that people in this generation should studies Buddha teaching very very carefully to develop firm suttamaya panna. No one should not take dhamma for granted. > James: Oh, I don't believe for one instant that just because we are very far from the age of the Buddha that we are more ignorant of the Buddha's teaching. Ultimately, the Dhamma is our teacher, not the Buddha- and that is what he said on his deathbed. The Dhamma is just as alive in our hearts now as it was 2,600 years ago. Time is irrelevant. (Yes, I know commentaries say something opposite...but you know how I feel about those commentaries :-) > For example, in Pali, the word "metta" has several meanings; loving-kindness, friendliness, goodwill, benevolence, fellowship, amity, concord, inoffensiveness and non-violence. Metta can be defined as the strong wish for the welfare and happiness of others. > James: I think your last definition is the more accurate one. Metta is the wish for other people's (beings) success. > And in AN 4.125 PTS: A ii 128 Metta Sutta: Loving-kindness (1) translated from the Pali by anamoli Thera) > > "Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world..." > > Anyone can read and understand the meaning of the word "metta" through explanation in above sutta or texts but how much it reflect reality for understanding of actual circumstance in daily life or just only the word in the books. > > When you see someone help others, even just very trivia matter, it always reflects metta. James: Not "always". Sometimes that help can be for selfish reasons. Little by little of understanding metta will lead us to develop more and more of metta in our daily life. Metta arises for us to aware of its reality as wholesome citta which brings joyful and pleasant moment. The more metta we accumulate, the more attachment to self we eradicate. (I remember you talk about Phil's metta to you in recent post, for example) That is the headway toward what mentioned in the sutta; "...he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world." > James: You know, you remind me of the time I met Sarah and Jon in Hong Kong. I talked about meeting Phil, so I might as well talk about meeting Sarah and Jon. When I first started talking to Jon, after we sat down for an all-you-can-eat Indian lunch buffet (delicious!!), he forcefully started to asked me "Is there metta now? At this moment is there metta in our meeting together?" I was really shocked- I didn't know what to say. I was silent because he kept demanding that I say there was metta arising in our meeting. But, how would I know?? I wanted to tell him, "Sorry, I left my Metta Meter at home." :-) But I didn't want to ruin the pleasant lunch. I think it is so silly to try and determine if there is the development of metta at any particular time in our day to day lives. We could just be fooling ourselves or patting ourselves on the back for a "job well done"! The Buddha explained the best way to develop metta and that is during Metta Meditation...the Brahmaviharas. > This is the partly explicit explanation of Suttamaya panna development when theoretical understanding appreciable to reality happen in that moment. Cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna will develop step by step after firm and extensive development of suttamaya panna. > James: Metta will only develop step by step if one frequently practices the Brahmaviharas. Otherwise, just selfish idealism will develop. > The development of complete wisdom, however, takes long long time, not in this life or several lives even eon because we've being accumulated ignorance for long long time, even now !!. We just have ton of dust in our eyes. > James: Sorry, but I think this is crazy nonsense. Accumulating ignorance?? Can't be done in several lifetimes, even eons of time! If this was true about people the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching the Dhamma at all. It would have been a lost cause. > > James:.... At that time, the Sangha was filled with unworthy monks. So, > in essence, the commentaries could be the writings of madmen. > ............In my estimation, they are full of so many lies and false views that they aren't worth anyone's time at all! They are terrible and evil to me. > > JK: Wow ! This comment turns me upside down to think that the whole Councils who sorted out Tipitaka and commentaries are unorthodox themselves. How can that be? > James: It can be very easily. Even with the Buddha was alive Mara tried everything within his power to destroy the Sangha. After the Buddha died, he probably doubled or re-tripled his efforts. Don't forget or underestimate the power of Mara to deceive. > Metta, metta and metta !!! > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132385 From: "philip" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:33 pm Subject: Re: Now! philofillet Dear Sarah and group Thanks for the great post. I highlight one part: Nina: Tom wants to know how to help children with kusala cittas. We live in the conventional world. *** AS: Leave it to condtions. You think in your way and the others think in their way and what about 'just do your best'? *** Tom talks about choosing a video and needing to select one and the dilemmas involved. *** AS: 'Just do your best!' Ph: This is very good. Similar to "just understand." Ajahn doesn't give us lobha-ditthi rooted techniques to speed things up, she reminds us that here and now there are opportunities for understanding, opportunities for kusala, in line with conditions. No posponing understanding for when conditions have been manipulated ( by greed and delusion) to permit rituals. Nope. Understanding now, kusala now. Or not. The way of detachment, the Buddha's way. As : What's the result of attachment? More fire again. Kindness does not hurt at all. They can sense the difference between kindness and attachment." Ph: Wow, Ajahn rocks! ( i.e is great. ^_^) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott #132386 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:53 pm Subject: Re: T.A. alive on Sunday. jagkrit2012 Dear Nina and friends Thank you very much for your post. I get many good reminders. > N: ........ Seeing arises very often and also clinging arises very often, since this morning. We should listen and consider, and we should not be hoping for a result. There is seeing now and we can prove that it is a reality. We need patience and endurance.> JK: TA Sujin once said when reality arises without understanding, it is like strewing dusts of ignorance piling up upon citta unnoticeably again and again. Is it good to know our defilement? Yes, very good because we will not be heedless. Seeing now but don't understand, hearing now but don't understand. When there will be any understanding? Anumodhana Jagkrit #132387 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:32 am Subject: An Interesting Sutta AN 63 (3) - Another Perspective on the Buddha's Jhanas upasaka_howard Hi, all - The following is a portion of The teaching Venaaga in the book of threes, which can be found at the link http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pitaka/anguttara-nikaya/1189-an-the-boo\ k-of-the-threes-2-fifty-ii-the-great-chapter: __________________________________ (1) "But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?" "Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhna of which the noble ones declare: `He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.' With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity. "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.444 If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that [183] celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty." "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a celestial high and luxurious bed? _________________________________ This seems to unambiguously show that while dwelling in the 4th jhana it is possible to engage in bodily actions, including to walk back & forth. With metta, Howard P. S. This was pointed out on another list Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132388 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:36 am Subject: Re: An Interesting Sutta AN 63 (3) - Another Perspective on the Buddha's Jhanas upasaka_howard Hi again, all - The link I sent doesn't seem to work. The entire Venaaga section follows. With metta, Howard ___________________________________ 63 (3) Venga On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering on tour among the Kosalans together with a large Sa?gha of bhikkhus when he reached the Kosalan brahmin village named Vengapura. The brahmin householders of Vengapura heard: "It is said that the ascetic Gotama, the son of the Sakyans who went forth from a Sakyan family, has arrived at Vengapura. Now a good report about that Master Gotama has circulated thus: `That Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One. Having realized by his own direct knowledge this world with its devas, Mra, and Brahm, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, he makes it known to others. He teaches a Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing; he reveals a spiritual life that is perfectly complete and pure.' Now it is good to see such arahants." Then the brahmin householders of Vengapura approached the Blessed One. Some paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down to one side; some exchanged greetings with him [181] and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, sat down to one side; some reverentially saluted him and sat down to one side; some pronounced their name and clan and sat down to one side; some kept silent and sat down to one side. The brahmin Vacchagotta of Vengapura then said to the Blessed One: "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama, how Master Gotama's faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. Just as a yellow jujube fruit in the autumn is pure and bright, so Master Gotama's faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. Just as a palm fruit that has just been removed from its stalk is pure and bright, so Master Gotama's faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. Just as an ornament of finest gold, well prepared by a skilled goldsmith and very skillfully wrought in the furnace, placed on red brocade, shines and beams and radiates, so Master Gotama's faculties are tranquil and the color of his skin is pure and bright. "Whatever high and luxurious kinds of bedding there arethat is, a sofa, a divan, a long-haired coverlet, a coverlet of diverse colors, a white coverlet, a woolen coverlet with floral designs, a quilt of cotton wool, a woolen coverlet ornamented with animal figures, a woolen coverlet with double borders, a woolen coverlet with a single border, a silken sheet studded with gems, a sheet made with silk threads and studded with gems, a dancer's rug, an elephant rug, a horse rug, a chariot rug, a rug of antelope hide, a spread made of the hide of the kadali-deer, [a bed] with a canopy above and red bolsters at both endsMaster Gotama surely gains them at will, without trouble or difficulty."442 "Brahmin, those high and luxurious kinds of bedding are rarely obtained by those who have gone forth, and if they are obtained, they are not allowed. "But, brahmin, there are three kinds of high and luxurious beds that at present I gain at will, without trouble or difficulty. What three? [182] The celestial high and luxurious bed, the divine high and luxurious bed, and the noble high and luxurious bed.443 These are the three kinds of high and luxurious beds that at present I gain at will, without trouble or difficulty." (1) "But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?" "Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhna of which the noble ones declare: `He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.' With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity. "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.444 If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that [183] celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty." "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a celestial high and luxurious bed? (2) "But, Master Gotama, what is the divine high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?" "Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to myself, I dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, vast, exalted, measureless, without enmity, without ill will. I dwell pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with compassion with a mind imbued with altruistic joy with a mind imbued with equanimity, likewise the second quarter, the third quarter, and the fourth quarter. Thus above, below, across, and everywhere, and to all as to myself, I dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with equanimity, vast, exalted, measureless, without enmity, without ill will. "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is divine. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is divine. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is divine. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my divine high and luxurious bed. This is that divine high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty." [184] "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a high and luxurious bed? (3) "But, Master Gotama, what is the noble high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?" "Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then I understand thus: `I have abandoned greed, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned hatred, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising. I have abandoned delusion, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it so that it is no more subject to future arising.'445 "Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is noble. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is noble. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is noble. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my noble high and luxurious bed. This is that noble high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty." "It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a noble high and luxurious bed? "Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent, Master Gotama! Master Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the darkness so those with good eyesight can see forms. We now go for refuge to Master Gotama, [185] to the Dhamma, and to the Sa?gha of bhikkhus. Let Master Gotama consider us lay followers who from today have gone for refuge for life." #132389 From: "Robert E" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:30 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > J: Are you saying that "mindfulness meditation" is simply a synonym for the Pali term "satipatthana", or perhaps for the contents of the Satipatthana Sutta? Or is it a part only of that/those. If the latter (i.e., part only), why focus on a part rather than the whole? > > > > RE: I don't understand this kind of question. The satipatthana sutta, like the anapanasati, starts out with a monk or other practitioner who is practicing mindfulness of breathing. Within the sitting meditation practice of mindfulness of breathing - anapanasati - he then goes through all the other arenas in which mindfulness must be applied. It's all of one cloth, and all in the context of sitting meditation, unless one wants to artificially dissect it and skew it to make it seem like it is something else. > > =============== > > J: My question was simply what you, Rob E, mean by the term "meditation" when you use it, given that there's no equivalent Pali term in the texts. Does it refer to a particular part of the teachings given by the Buddha and, if so, which part? And why single out that part to the exclusion of the other parts? > > > =============== > > > J: But at least we all know what is meant by a "horse" :-)) > > > > RE: Well in almost any conversation any given day, everyone knows what meditation means too. It's only around here that it seems like some kind of weird tropical plant that just can't be defined no matter how hard one tries. I think it's a fairly artificial problem. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "everyone knows what meditation means", I very much doubt this is so. The distinct impression I get is that the term is used indiscriminately, without a clear idea of a precise meaning. > > > =============== > > RE: Meditation is an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another. > > =============== > > J: Thanks for giving (at last!) a definition of meditation as "an attempt to sit or stand still and focus on an object that causes one to enter a more refined or spiritual state in one way or another". > > I do not know of any instance of the Buddha saying that sitting or standing still and focussing on an object could cause one to enter a more refined or spiritual state. > > There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a) seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments. Well that is the dispute, which to most observers would seem rather ridiculous. When you have the Buddha not only describing such activity but also saying, for instance, in the Anapanasati sutta, that if one were to practice in this way for 7 years, months, weeks or even days, they would develop all the enlightenment factors and reach enlightenment, it is perfectly clear that he is not only reporting on such attainments but promoting such practice and describing it for the purpose of teaching others how to do it for that purpose. Why would he say that such practice will lead to enlightenment if, a/ it were not a practice that one could do, and b/ if he were not urging others to understand this practice and do it. Was he describing it as a matter of incidental interest for those who wanted to know about such attainments? For what purpose? In addition there is indeed an unbroken tradition in Buddhism in Buddhist communities of all national and cultural types of sitting meditation as described by the Buddha in the anapanasati sutta, and many of the practices of the satipatthana sutta are practiced as well. Certainly the Buddhist community throughout the centuries has taken these suttas as descriptions of how one should practice in order to attain Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness, as samatha/jhana and satipatthana. Would you agree, whether you think it is correctly founded or not, that such a tradition does exist, and that is the way that Buddhists have traditionally understood the Buddha's teachings in this area? > But that is not the same as saying that the Buddha prescribed a practice of sitting and concentrating as a means of attaining a more kusala state. The Buddha's teachings on anapanasati, satipatthana [as in the sutta,] and kayagasati, [as per the sutta,] clearly have the intent of showing how to properly attend their given meditation objects - breath as object; 4 foundations as object; and body [bodily rupas] as object. Why would the Buddha describe the proper way to attend these objects in order to develop mindfulness and/or samatha if not as instruction for others to do the same? > As far as the path is concerned, the Buddha himself did not make a distinction between "meditative" development and other ("non-meditative"/daily-life) development. When suttas start with the meditator finding a quiet place at the root of a tree, sitting cross-legged and then following a series of concentration exercises, the intent is rather clear. The fact that these same practices can also be extended into everyday life - a more difficult exercise - does not diminish the fact that they are rooted and described as occurring within sitting meditation, a tradition that has been actively engaged by Buddhists throughout the centuries. If you think that the entire tradition of Buddhism is wrong, that is your privilege, but you can't deny that this is the tradition, a very large part of it, and that the Buddha's talks on the subject often describe a monk who is practicing these procedures in sitting meditation. That is how it's been taken by Buddhists thorughout the ages, because it makes sense to do so. The Visudhimagga takes this up as well, and Buddhaghosa clearly takes the suttas in like manner and goes into more detail about these procedures. > > =============== > > RE: In Buddhist meditation there are specific ways of focusing and breathing and practicing mindfulness ... It's not necessary to argue over the meaning of "is" or "the" or whether a root of a tree is a real root or not or whether it is metaphor for equanimity, not a real tree at all. > > =============== > > J: You mention the Satipatthana Sutta and also "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text". I'd be interested to know what you see as being the plain meaning of the following passages from that sutta: The Satipatthana sutta begins and is rooted in anapanasati. It then moves on to other meditation objects. The tradition holds that anapanasati in sitting meditation posture is the most usual way of developing the concentration and mindfulness to then attend the objects given in the practice of satipatthana, being the four foundations. In addition such concentration and mindfulness are also applied to a number of other objects for specific purposes, such as the corpse contemplations, which give the practitioner a clear understanding of the temporary nature of the body, etc. In other words they are contemplations that lead to sati sampajanna or other expressions of mindfulness or concentration, using various important objects that have been selected by the Buddha for those purposes. That is true for everything you mention below - the corpse is a special object of contemplation; feeling/vedana is one of the four foundations of satipatthana, and an arising object that can be attended; citta with or without kusala or akusala qualities is one of the objects of mindfulness within satipatthana practice within the mental objects, as are some of your other examples. These are within the specific application of satipatthana or other meditation practices given by the Buddha. Whether you accept them as being initially approached through concentration/mindfulness developed by attending to the breath or not, these additional objects are meditation objects within the same basic framework. For additional exercises, like going to an actual cemetary and watching the decomposition of a corpse, one would obviously have to go sit in a cemetary. I don't see the problem. They are all meditations based on developing sati, samatha and/or understanding of various special objects chosen by the Buddha for their value in developing understanding and awareness. > 1. (Cemetery Contemplation 1) > "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus ..." > > 2. (Contemplation of Feeling) > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu when experiencing a pleasant feeling, understands: 'I experience a pleasant feeling ..." > > 3. (Contemplation of Consciousness) > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust ..." > > 4. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Five Hindrances)) > "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' ..." > > 6. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Seven Factors of Enlightenment)) > "Here, o bhikkhus, when the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have the enlightenment factor of mindfulness'; > > 7. (Contemplation of Mental Objects (Four Truths)) > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands: 'This is suffering,' according to reality; ..." "...according to reality...?" What is that a translation of...? That sentence doesn't make sense to me. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html > > To my reading, these are descriptions of monks with developed understanding, rather than instructions of practices to be followed. Given that they are describing monks meditating at the root of a tree at the beginning of many suttas, and describes how to develop concentration and sati, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What is the purpose? The Buddha was a teacher, not a reporter or writer. He was here to promote the development of enlightenment, and that's what he was doing - teaching how to do that. > For example, all except the first passage refer to the bhikkhu who "understands" or "knows with understanding". This is not something that can be `done' by following a `practice', surely. It is the result of practice, which then qualifies one for further practice. > > =============== > > > J: In the case of the Satipatthana Sutta, the references you mention are 1 part only of the 1st of 4 foundations of mindfulness. And they are spoken for the benefit of those persons in whom samatha and vipassana are already highly developed (this is apparent from the opening words beginning "There is the case where "). So there is a lot more in the Sutta than the part you mention. > > > > RE: In my view, they are all based on and take place within the context of the first part. The breathing practice is not just described for part 1, it is the mode that one is in for all four parts. > > > > "There is the case where" sets up the condition for the whole sutta, not just the few paragraphs immediately afterwards. > > =============== > > J: Regarding, "breathing practice is the mode for all four parts [of the Satipatthana Sutta]", this is certainly not the plain meaning of the Satipatthana Sutta, and nor is there any support in the Pali Canon for this view. It's a view espoused by those who are trying to fit the teachings into their own belief system (or what you would call "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition":-)) > > The passages from the Satipatthana Sutta that I've quoted above make perfect sense as they stand without imputing any "breathing practice" context. The tradition takes it that way, but it doesn't matter. They are all meditation objects prescribed by the Buddha who teaches how to regard them to develop samatha and/or sati. The fact that the sutta starts with anapanasati, however, is not a coincidence. I wonder what your theory is for why the Buddha starts with sitting cross-legged following the breath? It suggests that this is the seminal practice that focuses the mind, does it not? > > =============== > > > J: I didn't put that very well. Yes, we're discussing meditation. But there are times when I've tried to steer the conversation to the development of the path in general, i.e., not just that part of the path that involves what you call meditation. So far to no avail :-)) > > > > RE: Well we can switch subjects any time, but I thought we should try to resolve this issue once and for all before moving on to the many other topics available. So if you agree with me that meditation is essential to the development of the enlightenment factors, I'm ready to go forward! :-))) > > =============== > > J: Happy to agree with you if it's what the Buddha said :-)) I will await your agreement on the above. :-) Best, Rob E. - - - - - - - - - - - #132390 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:29 am Subject: Re: An Interesting Sutta AN 63 (3) - Another Perspective on the Buddha's Jhanas buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > This seems to unambiguously show that while dwelling in the 4th jhana it is possible to engage in bodily actions, including to walk back & forth. > Yes, it does seem to show that. It also seems to show that one must first sit in order to enter the fourth jhana, and as soon as one is in the fourth jhana that jhana can be maintained during other meditation postures such as walking back and forth, standing, and lying down. I think the bodily movements would still have to be in a quiet place (the grove) and in the context of meditation for the fourth jhana to be maintained. Otherwise, ordinary consciousness would break through again. Now this may seem weird, but what I find more interesting about the sutta is that the Buddha made his own "meditation cushion" before he would begin to meditate. He didn't just sit on the ground and spontaneously start meditating, he had to do some preparation first. I have missed this detail in other suttas.... Metta, James #132391 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:54 am Subject: Re: An Interesting Sutta AN 63 (3) - Another Perspective on the Buddha's Jhanas upasaka_howard Hi,James - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > This seems to unambiguously show that while dwelling in the 4th jhana it is possible to engage in bodily actions, including to walk back & forth. > > > > Yes, it does seem to show that. It also seems to show that one must first sit in order to enter the fourth jhana, and as soon as one is in the fourth jhana that jhana can be maintained during other meditation postures such as walking back and forth, standing, and lying down. I think the bodily movements would still have to be in a quiet place (the grove) and in the context of meditation for the fourth jhana to be maintained. Otherwise, ordinary consciousness would break through again. > > Now this may seem weird, but what I find more interesting about the sutta is that the Buddha made his own "meditation cushion" before he would begin to meditate. He didn't just sit on the ground and spontaneously start meditating, he had to do some preparation first. I have missed this detail in other suttas.... > > Metta, > James > =============================== Yes, I find it interesting also. Perhaps it is a matter of how quickly entering jhana quickly. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132392 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:26 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, > ... > Thomas: According to 'dhammakkhandhaa' there are a total of 84,000 dhammakkhandhaa in Buddha's teachings. They are 21,000 vinaya and 21,00 suttanta, and 42,000 abhidhammaa. ... > > Could you explain what is the text 'dhammakkhandhaa' (its location in the Pali texts)? > > >Htoo: ... It is not a text. It is dhamma unit. > Thanks for your reply. Could you explain where the dhamma unit 'dhammakkhandhaa' come from? Regards, Thomas #132393 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:37 am Subject: Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) thomaslaw03 Dear Htoo, > .... > Htoo: ... After nikaayas were arranged and cited there came the turn of Abhidhamma. In this pi.taka the teachings were not like sutta.ms. They all were not affixed with "eva.m me suta.m" "Thus have I heard" by Aananda even though all were cited by Aanandaa at the council. There are a total of 7 sections. > ... > The Buddha's teachings were " Dhamma & Vinaya ". ... > > > Thomas: Were the 7 sections agreeded by the first council? > (Note: According to Vinaya, Cullavagga XI, it mentions only Dhamma and Vinaya in the first council). > The 7 sections/books (of the Abhidhamma) were historically never recorded in and agreed by the first Buddhist council, according to Vinaya, Cullavagga XI. Regards, Thomas #132394 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:23 am Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James It's interesting to discuss with you in more controversial detail. I'd like to reply and ask you some questions as well. > James:........... I think it only means that you need to have Right View or a close approximation of Right View...then you have but little dust in your eyes. It doesn't mean that you can become enlightened at the drop of a hat!!!. The Buddha didn't teach only those who became instantly enlightened after listening to him.You seem to have a really severe and strict interpretation of the history of the Buddha. JK: I agree with you this point. Sorry if I was over interpretation of some words. It's just my understanding when I passed by those words in Tipitaka. ===================== > James: I really don't understand this. I don't know the differences between suttamaya, cintamaya, and bhavanamaya panna (My Pali is very limited). But I don't think I really need to know. Just like above, it sounds like an extraneous complication where there is no need for one. You just have to ask yourself: is this something the Buddha taught? If not, then it isn't necessary. JK: This is Buddha teaching. Sukin, one of our friends, once posted about this topic which explains quite clear. And I'd like to extract for your information. Suttamayapanna is a level of understanding which arises upon hearing the Dhamma. It is the initial and necessary level of panna, one without which further investigation along the path could never be conditioned to arise. It acts often as a reminder conditioning either the immediate next level, namely cintamayapanna or depending on the accumulations, even bhavanamayapanna. Cintamayapanna is level of understanding arisen not so much from hearing the words, but from observation, though conceptual, where certain signs and details act as condition for deeper reflection on Dhamma. It is a level of `thinking', but one which involves panna which is growing in the realization that all that is to be known is the present dhamma. So it is not about `contemplating abstractly', but seeing the importance of knowing directly the arisen dhamma. Bhavanamayapanna is Satipatthana. The understanding is now more direct and not conceptual. This however, like any other dhamma, cannot arise by any willing, trying or doing. It is a consequence of much development at the two prior stages, namely, suttamayapanna and cintamayapanna. ====================== > James: Oh, I don't believe for one instant that just because we are very far from the age of the Buddha that we are more ignorant of the Buddha's teaching. JK: Speak-less about commentaries, you think the environment, surrounding, activities and people behavior or way of life now and 2600 year ago aren't any different? Dhamma the Buddha taught for people at the time suitable for the people at that time. But for us in this present time with different nature and different language, do you think of any difficulty of listening and understanding his teaching? >James: Ultimately, the Dhamma is our teacher, not the Buddha- and that is what he said on his deathbed. JK: Yes, however, we shall have Buddha, dhamma and Sangha as our refuge. >James: The Dhamma is just as alive in our hearts now as it was 2,600 years ago. Time is irrelevant. (Yes, I know commentaries say something opposite...but you know how I feel about those commentaries :-) JK: Please explain: the dhamma is just as alive in our hearts. How? ======================== >James: You know, you remind me of the time I met Sarah and Jon in Hong Kong. I talked about meeting Phil, so I might as well talk about meeting Sarah and Jon.When I first started talking to Jon, after we sat down for an all-you-can-eatIndian lunch buffet (delicious!!), he forcefully started to asked me "Is there metta now? At this moment is there metta in our meeting together?" I was reallyshocked- I didn't know what to say. I was silent because he kept demanding that I say there was metta arising in our meeting. But, how would I know?? I wanted to tell him, "Sorry, I left my Metta Meter at home." :-) But I didn't want to ruin the pleasant lunch.. JK: Maybe John and Sarah can join us with some unforceful explanation. It is hard to find metta during the hungriness and smelling delicious India buffet odor before you, isn't it?. :) > James: I think it is so silly to try and determine if there is the development of metta at any particular time in our day to day lives. JK: Isn' t that how to understand sati-patthana or awareness of reality ? >James: The Buddha explained the best way to develop metta and that is during Metta Meditation...the Brahmaviharas. >Metta will only develop step by step if one frequently practices the Brahmaviharas. Otherwise, just selfish idealism will develop. JK: If we can not understand and develop metta to others in daily life, how can we develop metta by just sitting alone and meditating? I've seen a person who pervades metta everyday after his meditation, but when he got outside his meditation room , he just kicked a dog peeing on his shoes. You see something peculiar? =========================== > James: Sorry, but I think this is crazy nonsense. Accumulating ignorance?? Can't be done in several lifetimes, even eons of time! If this was true about people the Buddha wouldn't have bothered teaching the Dhamma at all. It would have been a lost cause. JK: I think you don't denier samsara or circle of birth and dead. Because Buddha knew how much ignorance people had been accumulated in many lives during samsara. He, therefore, spent eon to be sammaa sambuddha and guided people out of all defilement. ========================= James: It can be very easily. Even with the Buddha was alive Mara tried everything within his power to destroy the Sangha. After the Buddha died, he probably doubled or re-tripled his efforts. Don't forget or underestimate the power of Mara to deceive. JK: Yes, especially Mara of ignorance always lure us out of the right path. Therefore, it is very important to carefully studying dhamma. Don't believe unless there is reasonable and clear explanation on any issue of dhamma for example present popular transformative meditation practice. Remember (kalama suttas) ? Anumodhana Jagkrit #132395 From: "Ken H" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:51 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi Robert E, -------- <. . .> >> KH: Can't we at least admit we are talking about two *completely different* ways of understanding the Dhamma? > RE: Why would that be satisfying to you? Isn't it better to say that I agree about dhammas but not about how that knowledge applies to conventional activities? --------- KH: No, it would be better if you agreed there were some completely crazy people on DSG who thought there were only dhammas. People who thought conventional things did not even exist. (!!!) Crazy people! :-) Ken H #132396 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:26 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > > J: Let's begin by clarifying what is meant by "intentional action for a worthy goal" or "expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose". Are you referring to actual kusala, or are you referring to an intention or effort that precedes the arising of actual kusala. Perhaps an example or two would help. Thanks. > -------------------------------- > HCW: My introspection is generally pretty good, but this detail may exceed it. I'm afraid that I am simply speaking in a casual way of wholesome intention aimed at conditioning beneficial consequences. > =============== J: Thanks for this clarification. Does "wholesome intention aimed at conditioning beneficial consequences" mean the same as "kusala intention to have/develop more kusala"? If so, I think there's a problem (apart from the obvious tautological one!), in that the teachings do not acknowledge the intention to have/develop kusala as being itself a kind of kusala. According to the descriptions of kusala in the Pali Canon, either there is kusala or there isn't. If there's useful reflection on kusala -- for example, its benefits or its nature as a mere element that arises by appropriate conditions -- then that would be considered as an aspect of bhavana. But that kind of useful thinking is to be distinguished from, for example, intending/deciding to do some activity that we think will condition more kusala to arise; this is most likely to be motivated by attachment (with or without a mistaken view of the nature of kusala). None of the foregoing is meant to be personal to you, but just to set out my understanding as to why I am reluctant to acknowledge "intentional action for a worthy goal" or "expenditure of effort for a wholesome purpose" as being likely to be kusala, and at the same time why this is not a denial of kusala kamma. Hoping I'm managing to make some sense. Jon #132397 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, I enjoy this conversation as well but I don't like that word "controversial". I have no intention of being controversial. I am just telling you my mind. Replies are in-text. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Suttamayapanna is a level of understanding which arises upon hearing > the Dhamma. It is the initial and necessary level of panna, one without > which further investigation along the path could never be conditioned to > arise. It acts often as a reminder conditioning either the immediate next > level, namely cintamayapanna or depending on the accumulations, even > bhavanamayapanna. > > Cintamayapanna is level of understanding arisen not so much from > hearing the words, but from observation, though conceptual, where > certain signs and details act as condition for deeper reflection on > Dhamma. It is a level of `thinking', but one which involves panna which > is growing in the realization that all that is to be known is the present > dhamma. So it is not about `contemplating abstractly', but seeing the > importance of knowing directly the arisen dhamma. > > Bhavanamayapanna is Satipatthana. The understanding is now more > direct and not conceptual. This however, like any other dhamma, cannot > arise by any willing, trying or doing. It is a consequence of much > development at the two prior stages, namely, suttamayapanna and > cintamayapanna. > James: I pretty much agree with these levels of wisdom, except you left off the last and most important level: The supramundane wisdom of jhana leading to enlightenment. These levels of wisdom that you describe are mundane levels of wisdom, they are not supramundane (beyond the mundane and ordinary). If one follows this path to the utmost pinnacle, the most he/she can expect is to become a Non-returner. A non-returner is one who goes to a special level of heaven in order to experience jhana. One must experience jhana in order to be enlightened!! It is an absolute requirement! > > JK: Speak-less about commentaries James: Thank you, you are very considerate. I do get very enraged at the mention of commentaries. :-)) , you think the environment, surrounding, activities and people behavior or way of life now and 2600 year ago aren't any different? Dhamma the Buddha taught for people at the time suitable for the people at that time. But for us in this present time with different nature and different language, do you think of any difficulty of listening and understanding his teaching? > James: Well, I must admit that you got me there. The environment of India 2600 ago was very spiritual and more spiritual than today (that is why Gotama's father kept him locked up...because he father had pre-knowledge of Gotama's spiritual inclination and wanted him to remain a prince). Heck, I believe that even the environment of India in the present day is very spiritual (such as Thailand, but not as much as India). But that doesn't mean that people have changed, only environments have changed. If a person wants to follow the Buddha's path with all sincerity, it is very important to create the right environment in one's home and daily life- even if that calls for drastic actions.(BTW, the Vism. gives many details about this) > >James: Ultimately, the Dhamma is our teacher, not the Buddha- and that is what he said on his deathbed. > > JK: Yes, however, we shall have Buddha, dhamma and Sangha as our refuge. > James: Well, yes theoretically, but the Buddha is dead and the current Sangha is a mess. I think the Dhamma is the only current and active refuge to count on. > >James: The Dhamma is just as alive in our hearts now as it was 2,600 years ago. Time is irrelevant. (Yes, I know commentaries say something opposite...but you know how I feel about those commentaries :-) > > JK: Please explain: the dhamma is just as alive in our hearts. How? > James: What I mean is that the truth of the Dhamma is an absolute truth that is present in all of us (i.e. our hearts/minds), and it always will be present. Only ignorance covers up the truth of Dhamma in each of us.. As the Buddha said, he didn't discover a new path, he discovered an old path which had been traveled many times before. So when commentaries say that those born today are very far from the Dhamma I have have to laugh. The Dhamma is right in front of our noses! > > JK: Maybe John and Sarah can join us with some unforceful explanation. It is hard to find metta during the hungriness and smelling delicious India buffet odor before you, isn't it?. :) > James: Jon and Sarah do not need to provide any explanation for anything!! That is not why I told the story!! I just thought it was a cute example of trying to force the recognition of insight during daily life. Jon and Sarah were very kind and sweet to me during my entire visit to Hong Kong. They paid for that delicious lunch; they converted money into HK dollars for me because all the banks were closed on Sunday and I needed to get a visa for Taiwan; and they went to the Visa office with me to make sure I got the visa okay and to translate if there were any problems. They went above and beyond what is ordinary behavior. They were the utmost kind and generous couple!! Now, is that behavior developing metta? I DON'T KNOW!! Who am I to say if it is developing metta? I follow the teachings of the Buddha and the only thing I can say for certain is that it was developing good karma. Kind actions lead to good karma- that is what the Buddha taught. I don't see any textual proof that kind actions lead to the development of metta. lunch BTW and they > > James: I think it is so silly to try and determine if there is the development of metta at any particular time in our day to day lives. > > JK: Isn' t that how to understand sati-patthana or awareness of reality ? > James: No. I believe that mindfulness is developed when one sits in meditation and develops mindfulness of the meditation object. I don't believe in the Satipatthana Sutta (of which there are two versions) the way it is written. Mindfulness during daily life is definitely helpful in living correctly, but I don't think it is transformative. I don't think that type of daily mindfulness is part of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > JK: If we can not understand and develop metta to others in daily life, how can we develop metta by just sitting alone and meditating? James: If we cannot develop metta in our own minds when we are alone, how can we hope to express metta to others in our daily life?? I think you are asking the wrong question. I've seen a person who pervades metta everyday after his meditation, but when he got outside his meditation room , he just kicked a dog peeing on his shoes. You see something peculiar? > James: I don't know the particulars, but that person wasn't practicing metta meditation. Metta meditation is a guaranteed protection against all animal attacks- the Buddha specifically taught that. He taught metta meditation to his monks as a protection against snake bites and other animal attacks. And he personally used his metta development to stop an elephant from killing him. No one who develops metta would experience a dog peeing on his shoe. That is why he kicked the dog and why the dog peed on his shoe....no metta. > JK: Yes, especially Mara of ignorance always lure us out of the right path. Therefore, it is very important to carefully studying dhamma. James: I wasn't talking about the mental defilement of ignorance, I was talking about the actual entity/creature called Mara. He is from another dimension and he works hard to destroy the Dhamma. He gets into people's minds and makes them do things they wouldn't normally do. The Buddha taught about him many times in many suttas, but nowadays people tend to ignore him. Mara is real and he is working hard all the time to destroy Buddhism. > > Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132398 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:18 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 78 philofillet Dear group A very good post on tge different degrees of akusala: > I would like to include in this letter also Dhamma questions I > received from others. > > Question: In order to lead a wholesome life is it sufficient to keep > the five precepts? I feel that so long as one does not harm others > there are no defilements. Is that right? > > Answer: We may keep the precepts, but that does not mean that we have > eradicated defilements. Only arahats are without defilements. We > should develop understanding of our different cittas and then we > shall discover that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala > cittas. > > There are different degrees of defilements, they can be coarse, > medium or subtle. Evil deeds through body, speech or mind are coarse > defilements. But even when we do not commit evil deeds there are > countless akusala cittas and these are medium defilements. For > example, attachment or aversion may not motivate an unwholesome deed, > but they are still akusala and thus dangerous. > > Akusala citta which arises falls away but the unwholesome tendency is > accumulated and it can condition the arising of akusala again. The > unwholesome tendencies which are accumulated are subtle defilements. > Even though they are called subtle, they are dangerous. They are like > microbes infesting the body, they can show effects at any time. So > long as these tendencies have not been eradicated they can condition > the arising of akusala citta and akusala kamma, and we have to > continue in the cycle of birth and death. > > ***** > Nina > > > > > > #132399 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:19 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 78 htoonaing... Phil: Dear group A very good post on tge different degrees of akusala: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, thanks for posting this of Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I would like to include in this letter also Dhamma questions I > > received from others. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: In order to lead a wholesome life is it sufficient to keep the five precepts? I feel that so long as one does not harm others there are no defilements. Is that right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's post: Answer: We may keep the precepts, but that does not mean that we have eradicated defilements. Only arahats are without defilements. We should develop understanding of our different cittas and then we shall discover that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. There are different degrees of defilements, they can be coarse, medium or subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Coarse defilements = viitikkama kilesaa Medium defilements = pariyu.t.thaana kilesaa Subtle defilements = anusaya kilesaa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Post continues: Evil deeds through body, speech or mind are coarse defilements. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is action through body. Or through speech. Or through mind. Through body: This is action performed through body-door of kamma-door. They are 1. killing (paa.naatipaata) (paa.na = life + ati (extreme, high, fastest)+ paata (drop) paa.naatipaata = dropping the life of a life (killing) 2. stealing (adinnaadaana) a (no, not) + dinna (given) + aadaana (taking_daana = giving) adinnaadaana = a + dinna + aadaana taking the ungiven things (stealing) 3. sensual misconduct kaamesumicchaacaara kaama (sensual things)+ esu (at) + micchaa (wrongly) +caara (practice) kaamesumicchaacaara = kaama + esu + micchaa + caara wrongly practising at sensual things Even though it is mainly understood as adultery it also include drug addiction, alcohol intoxication, and all misconduct happen bodily. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To continue-: