#132600 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:08 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada glenjohnann Hi Sarah, Jon and Azita Ann: S. and J. please add my greetings and well wishes to Achan and friends in Bkk and Vietnam. Sounds like a wonderful trip with so many opportunities for discussion in Thailand and VN. Azita, I have some appreciation of reno's - hope it all completes soon. I / we are expecting to be in Thailand in January for discussions then - looking forward to it. Re metta: yup, Azita, you've got it - panna will know. Metta, Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo Sarah, Jon > > Safe travels and kindly give my hallos to T.A and all the others in Bkk, and also to the wonderful dhamma group in Vietnam. > > one question: is metta as simple as just being friendly.? Some days it seems so easy to smile at a stranger walking by, for no other reason than just being friendly. Lobha or metta, and I guess I know the answer to that - only right understanding can really know. > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita, stuck-in-cairns-and-still-doing-renos ;( > #132601 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:26 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada kenhowardau Hi all, Phil wrote: ----- > Couldn't it be that when we are living our lives in paramattha terms we are forcing panna where it isn't ready to go? > ----- KH: "Living our lives in paramattha terms" could be taken to mean, "having right understanding of the present reality." On that basis there would be no danger of wrong practice, of course. But Phil is talking about something else: -------------- > Ph: I know I find myself thinking things like "just dhammas rising and falling away, nothing to get upset about." That is using the Dhamma for comfort in the same way meditators do. (Well, not as grossly wrong.) -------------- KH: I must admit to doing the same thing. When I am annoyed by something, and I have a desire to be free of that annoyance, I summon up the old mantra: "There are only dhammas." What a shameful misuse of the Buddha's teaching! :-) But even then, right view can arise to take the lobha or the wrong practice as its object. It all depends on conditions, over which there is no control. Over all, I would say even though those words can be prompted by akusala motives, it is always good to hear them. Ken #132602 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear K. Azita, K.Nina, K. Ann and friends > I understand you will be going to KK with T.A. and the others very soon and I would so appreciate, and I think maybe Nina would also, some little 'wisdoms' from you, from your time in KK. JK: Khop khun krub, Khun Azita. I do wish you, K. Nina, K. Ann and others could join this KK and Viet Nam discussion. I've heard that during the discussion in Saigon, there could be live broadcast via dhammahome English website as well. You can check on that day start at Aug 31, at 16.00 pm local time. I do hope that they can provide live broadcast because our Vietnamese friends always have very interesting questions during the discussion. Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing all of you in this coming Jan. Anumodhana krub Jagkrit #132603 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Hi Azita & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > Safe travels and kindly give my hallos to T.A and all the others in Bkk, and also to the wonderful dhamma group in Vietnam. ... S: Thx and will pass on all the kind wishes. You'll be missed in Vietnam this time... ... > > one question: is metta as simple as just being friendly.? Some days it seems so easy to smile at a stranger walking by, for no other reason than just being friendly. Lobha or metta, and I guess I know the answer to that - only right understanding can really know. ... S: Yes, right understanding.... does one have the stranger's welfare at heart or does one just enjoy one's own pleasant feeling? Is one being genuinely kind and concerned for the other, ready to help or does one hope for a smile or friendly response in return? Slowly and gradually the characteristics of lobha and metta can be known but not when there's any attachment to oneself and having more metta nor when there is a 'trying to work out the story about metta'! During the day, so much ignorance and attachment from the moment we wake up and so few moments of understanding, but gradually it can grow through understanding of dhammas as anatta. This morning as I walked through central Hong Kong, a nice-looking Chinese lady smiled at me and I smiled back, appreciating her friendliness. She then tried to pass me a hand-out advertising something and in no time and I was mildly irritated instead, probably still with a fixed smile on my face. Rapidly changing cittas all the time. > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita, stuck-in-cairns-and-still-doing-renos ;( S: We know the story.... we're in a bit of a nervous state today as Jon tries to get some office work done whilst we also pack and try to supervise builders and workmen in our flat in Manly long-distance after severe flooding damage. So helpful to be reminded that the real problem is always the thinking with lobha, dosa or moha now and not the renos, not the workmen, not the paching, aching joints, sickness or anything else! Will try to send some e-notes! Meanwhile, please keep adding your comments on the list. Metta Sarah ===== #132604 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:54 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Htoo, Thanks for your response. > Assume the study (theoretically) is finished. All parts in NEP are important. Even though 8 parts there are more cetasikas than 8. 8 parts are named as magga`ngas. But all other associated cetasikas are also important. > > I some time directed to effort. Some time to concentration. All active DSGs concentrate on understanding. That is why someone now active at DSG said 'N1P' and nore more N8P in DSG. > > Cetanaa (volition) is the leader in sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa of NEP. > Without it there will not even be citta. Cetanaa is kamma. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that when it comes to NEP, right view is the forerunner, since panna is one of the 3 root cetasikas. Cetana, chanda, sanna and the rest will accord to the roots, not the other way around. Further, I was under the impression that NEP factors arise together at the same time, not separately. So, if there's no panna (right view), there will be none of the other NEP factors present at that moment either. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that if panna arises very rarely for beginners like me, all the other factors of the NEP are absent in all those moments without panna as well. In fact, it's likely most such moments are akusala, if there's no dana and sila. Thus, the attempt to increase effort (or any of the other factors), is likely akusala (with lobha) - since there's no panna, nor other factors of the NEP at such times. Whether such attempt will also have wrong view would depend on whether it's done in a ritualised fashion - believing that a practiced ritual might bring desired results. The only time when the wish (chanda) to increase effort (or any of the other NEP factors) is kusala would be when panna appreciates the value of a particular kusala factor. So, again, panna is the forerunner. I guess those with highly developed wisdom would be able to appreciate effort (or any other factor) as it truly is, and thus develop them individually, so to speak. I myself can't distinguish between effort, wish, decision, concentration, etc. Best wishes pt #132605 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:03 pm Subject: edited audio from Vietnam 2012 and Kaeng Krachan, June 2013 sarahprocter... Dear Tam B, Azita, Nina & all, We've also been busy trying to upload as much edited audio as we can before the trip. Under 'editing in progress' at www.dhammastudygroup.org, we're glad to say that - the Bkk & KK June 2013 series (with Annie & Lan) is almost finished and is the best set of audio for those new to Dhamma and not familiar with Pali terms to listen to - the Vietnam 2012 series has at least been started! We've uploaded quite a few of the non-formal sessions, such as at meals and on bus trips and on the boat. We hope to keep working on this series and adding more discussions. They take a little more work than other sets, which is why other sets have jumped the queue! Wishing everyone good listening! Metta Sarah (& Jon) ====== #132606 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:10 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex (RobE), (**KenH and Sukin at the end, thanks), Thanks for your response(s). > I wonder if it is possible for you to adjust how high you sit, on what you sit and few other variables to sit without pain. Thanks, it's kind of you to try to help. I guess I'm lucky in that posture never really seemed to make much difference to my brain as long as there's no pain. > What about other people whose mindfulness and/or concentration increased during the retreats? I don't know. They might be wiser than me, or just deluded, or anything in between. As I said elsewhere, I'm not a big fan of generalising about other people, especially if they're not here to participate but are just figments of my imagination conjured up for purposes of supporting my arguments. We can talk about your and my experiences, that's enough I think. > Maybe you are doing something wrong? My current conclusion is that it is lack of understanding that's the main thing that I'm "doing wrong". > It still seems reasonable to me that skill in meditation might be like skill in any other endevour (like playing piano, etc). You don't go > from zero to Mozart in two moments. Rather it is a slow progress from > zero to a little bit, to being like Mozart (or whatever). Yes, Mozart is probably a bad example since he could play and compose almost as soon as he could walk and talk. In any case, I think it's a misunderstanding to conclude that what's being suggested on dsg is that people should go from zero to perfect in a moment. Rather, what people seem to be saying here is that development is very gradual (as you say as well), and that we all start from where we are (which you seem to say as well). But the conclusion drawn out from there seems a bit different - we need to be honest about where we are and understand how the teachings apply to us at that particular point. I think it's reasonable to assume that those with weak understanding will read the texts differently to those with developed understanding. Further, I think it's reasonable to say that most texts were originally taught to those with developed understanding. If my understanding is weak, I better make sure I understand the texts correctly, as the possiblity to misinterpret is high. > >a) How does a moment with mindfulness differ from a moment without >it? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > One moment you are aware of "realities" another moment you are not. > > Or sometimes for example when I am mindless and walk up the stairs, I might not even know that I am walking up the stairs. When I am mindful, I know that I am walking up the stairs when I am walking up the stairs. I think this is a good thing to discuss. I used to think that what you describe above is mindfulness, but now I think it is only thinking (even if it is non-verbal - so a very clear "patterns and shapes recognition" so to speak, without actual verbal thoughts). In other words, to be with mindfulness, such moments would have to be kusala. But what makes knowing that I'm walking up the stairs kusala? There is no dana, no sila, so to make it bhavana at least, there would have to be either consideration of dhammas (vipassana), or of samatha object (samatha). But walking up the stairs seems to be neither. What would you say is kusala about it? I don't mean to be confrontational - I keep wondering about the same thing, and I can't really find any kusala in knowing that I'm walking, or that I'm sitting, breathing, etc. All these are things mentioned in the satipatthana sutta, yet there must be something I'm missing since there doesn't seem to be any kusala in such moments for me at least. **Perhaps Sukin and KenH could tell us as ex-meditators: In your experiences, when you were aware that you are sitting, or walking, or breathing (so things mentioned in satipatthana sutta), what is the difference between just thinking about it (even though it's in a very clear and non-verbal fashion like it occurs in meditation) as opposed to actual panna arising in such situations, the latter being what satipatthana sutta is actually describing I guess. Thanks Best wishes pt #132607 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:00 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex, RobE, > A: It is intentional or unintentional sophism to take a sutta framed in conventional speech, turn it into "ultimate speech", and then use certain interpretation of ultimate speech to make the sutta mean OPPOSITE of what it actually says. p: The way I see it is that it actually has to do with acknowledging where we are and understanding the teachings accordingly. To attempt an analogy, if I can read a medical book, but am not a medical practitioner nor have much experience in medical practice (aka my panna is weak), the fact that I understand what the words in the manual mean does not mean that I understand what would be the consequences of my actions, nor that I should in fact practice medicine. So though the manual might say "doing X leads to Y" for medical practitioners (strong panna), it's probably a grave mistake to presume that my doing X (with weak panna) will actually lead to Y, since my X is missing what makes it an X in the first place - panna. > A: It also is insulting to compilers to assume that they couldn't frame the sutta correctly to mean what it means thus deluding followers and commentators for 2,500 years. p: To give an analogy, perhaps we're a bit presumptuous in assuming that we can understand a very advanced journals on brain surgery, without ever having practiced any sort of medicine. > RE:..."If there are only dhammas, and no conventional >activities, >why refrain from doing anything? p: In general, I think people here are saying 'understand' rather than 'do X, don't do Z'. > RE: Why not instead do >everything the >Buddha prescribed... p: Because those of us with weak understanding are likely to misunderstand what he's saying and do it with wrong view - a complete opposite to what he was encouraging. > A: Also let us not forget "emergent property". This totally wrecks the entire "chariot simile". And while a whole is made of parts, it is NOT reducible them. So with this in mind, how can we say that a person is reducible to citta/cetasika/rupa ? p: Reducing things to parts is thinking. On the other hand panna understands only citta/cetasika/rupa as anatta, anicca, etc. Thinking and panna are two different things with two different domains. Two entirely different mental faculties. We're reminded of citta/cetasika/rupa because it is panna that liberates. Thinking doesn't liberate, so reminding each other about persons, activites, etc, seems pointless (at least for purposes of liberation). I think that the use of similes and analogies only serves a purpose if it encourages panna. If it encourages thinking and theorising about how the world works, it has been misunderstood. Best wishes pt #132608 From: Tam Bach Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] edited audio from Vietnam 2012 and Kaeng Krachan, June 2013 tambach Dear  Jon, Sarah, Azita, Nina, Ann & all,  S:    the Bkk & KK June 2013 series (with Annie & Lan) is almost finished and is the best set of audio for those new to Dhamma and not familiar with Pali terms to listen to Tam B: Indeed Sarah, we have started to listen to the series and even have done some translations. Excellent! --------------------------- S: the Vietnam 2012 series has at least been started! We've uploaded quite a few of the non-formal sessions, such as at meals and on bus trips and on the boat. We hope to keep working on this series and adding more discussions. They take a little more work than other sets, which is why other sets have jumped the queue! S:  I am even amazed that you and Jon managed to edit them. Must have been lots of work! We are posting bits and parts of the discussions on our website and FB and it seems to get some positive responses from those who intend to participate in the Discussions. I've found that just a few exchanges at a time helps those who are new to the way TA explains the Dhamma to appreciate  better the wisdom in it and to consider it more carefully. The Saigon and Vung tau discussions are getting close. We all are getting excited (almost 20 will be coming from the North). It is really a pity that Nina, Azita, Ann, Meave, Sukin and others can not join us this time. We don't know how our friends in the south will respond to many challenging ideas, so it is kind of suspense to us too :-) Looking forward to seeing you all either in Vietnam or in Thailand Jan 2014! Metta, Tam B ====== #132609 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:17 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Alex & Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S: I think that what the Buddha taught was all about life at this >moment. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > And sometimes about past (previous lives) and future (results from akusala/kusala kamma). Some also claim that he talked about accumulations from the past. ... S: Just in order to understand present dhammas, present realities as conditioned and anatta. Only ever this moment now! ... > >S:What he did was indeed to take the conventional speech of the time >and to 'twist' it, to turn the meaning upside down, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > When He did that, he said that He did so not to confuse anyone. ... S: Like the meanings of 'void' or 'empty' and 'world' - the meanings as taught by the Buddha are very deep, taught for those that could understand about dhammas as anatta. As quoted before by Ven Samahita from SN: >"Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world... In what way, Venerable Sir, is it, that this world is Empty? It is, Ananda, because it is empty of a self and of what belongs to a self, that it is said, the world is empty... And what is it, which is empty of any self and of what belongs to a self? The eye, all forms, visual consciousness, eye-contact and all the feelings arised caused by eye-contact, are empty of any self, and empty of what belongs to a self... The ear, all sounds, auditory consciousness, ear-contact, and all feelings arised caused by ear-contact, are empty of any self, and empty of what belongs to a self... The nose, all smells, olfactory consciousness, nose-contact, feeling arised from smelled contact, the tongue, all flavours, all gustatory consciousness, tongue-contact, all feeling arised by tasting, the body, all forms of touch, all tactile consciousness, body-contact, all feelings arised caused by body contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to any self... The mind is empty of any self. All thoughts & ideas are empty of any self. Mental consciousness is empty of any self. Mental-contact is empty of self. Whatever feeling arised caused by any mental-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to any self... It is, Ananda, because all this is empty of any self & of what belongs to any even assumed made-up concept of self, that it is said: Empty is this world..."< >"Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85." >>Sensing no change in the changing, > >A: To be precise, anicca means inconstancy/irregularity. It is not necessary simply a change. ... S: As taught by the Buddha, it refers to the impermanence of all conditioned realities. Before the Buddha taught about dhammas as anicca, dukkha and anatta, people had the same understanding as we have today about the impermanence of things and people. .... > >Assuming "self" where there's no self, >A: It talked about ancient Hindu metaphysical idea of Atman. Not necessarily a non-metaphysical self, or puggala which Buddha didn't deny. ... S: Can you find a puggala in the sutta quoted? Metta Sarah p.s I hope others will help reply and continue the discussions while we're travelling and responding slowly! ====== #132610 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:20 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Alex, > >S:Could you clarify what you mean by "samatha" and "samatha skills"? > >Could you then clarify what you mean by "one should use" as in "one >should use samatha skills"? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >A: Samatha = calm. Calming akusala tendencies of the mind which tend to make the mind restless, uneasy, over active, etc. > > By skill I mean being able to easily achieve it anytime one wants, attain it quickly enough, deeply enough, etc. ... S: Can you be calm at will now? Who would like to so calm now? Doesn't such wishing and trying just lead to more agitation and disturbance when it's not as one would wish? Metta Sarah ===== #132611 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:29 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, > >S:Whatever we read, it must be in accordance with the truth about >dhammas as anatta: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >A: Or it must be in accordance with the rest of the teaching. ... S: The rest of the teaching is also about dhammas as anatta! ... > >S: When there is he idea that a person really can perform deeds and >follow instructions, it is atta-di.t.thi, the idea that self can >possess or control rupas, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > Nowhere does it state that. > > First of all, atta is not puggala. While Buddha kept denying certain version of Atta in the 5 aggregates, stopping short saying that natthi atta (Atta doesn't exist). ... S: When the Buddha describes the "all" in terms of the 5 khandhas and explains in detail how each of these khandhas is anatta in 4 ways and when he explains the worlds through the 6 doorways as being void of a self, I think it's fair to say that he's pointing out that all dhammas are anatta and that there is no atta to be found anywhere. ... > > Second: In Bhara sutta and others, the Buddha does NOT refute puggala. ... S: If you look under "Bhara sutta" in 'Useful Posts' you'll be able to read more detail on this point. Sorry, short of time to re-quote now. Someone else may. ... > > Third: Nowhere does Buddha refute control in your version of it. If we read anattalakkhana sutta and others, "no control" means that we can't make the body be permanent, only sukkha, and forever. The body ages, gets sick and dies. We can't also control the body one gets when one is reborn. ... S: Can you control what seeing sees now, what hearing hears now, what thinking thinks about now? Can you have calm at will now? Can you control whether pleasant or painful bodily feeling arises now or not? ... > >There is no understanding of dhammas as conditioned and anatta. > > > Of course every dhamma is conditioned. ... S: Is seeing dhamma? Is visible object dhamma? When hardness is experienced now, is it real? Does it belong to a self? Metta Sarah ===== #132612 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:38 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for your reply. > When I read that "I've meditated for X amount of years and no results", I wonder: Did a person meditate properly and long enough? Maybe if one meditated longer the results would come. I don't really know of course. I think my bragging rights on duration, precepts, focus, etc, are pretty good, so lack of understanding is the only hypothesis I haven't been able to disprove yet:) Seriously though, I think I understood more about samatha from my few brief conversations with Jon and Sarah than I did from thousands of hours of meditating. This reminds me of a story about Thomas Edison and Nicola Tesla - I don't know how true it is, but they were both great inventors, Edison worked on DC, Tesla on AC. Young Tesla came to work with Edison but they had two entirely different styles of work - Edison would try a new design a thousand times and fail until he came upon the right one. Tesla would just use a bit of maths and physics and work it all out quickly in his head - in a vision, as he described it. Edison was obviously annoyed and soon they parted and became great rivals. In any case, I wish I was Tesla, but I'm not and I have to bang my head on the wall a thousand times until one of the two cracks. There probably are a few Teslas around here, but damn they can be annoying with all that understanding business that I usually just don't get if I haven't banged my head on it a few hundred times at least. Best wishes pt #132613 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:42 pm Subject: Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > ... > S: Do you agree with what we read in the introduction to the Atthasaalinii, (PTS transl): > > "... 'Bhikkhus, learned is Mahaakaccaana, profoundly wise is > Mahaakaccaana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have > answered exactly as he has done.' Thus since the time when the > Teacher gave his approval, the whole Suttanta became the word of the > Buddha. And it is the same with the Suttas expounded by Aananda and > others." > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I agree. And I accept. There also were some 2000 dhammakkhandhaas > and there were saavaka-teachings. But they were approved by the Buddha. Example: Cuu.lavedalla sutta.m preached by Bhikkhunii Dhammadinnaa. The sutta.m was about dhamma discussion between anaagaamii Visaakha (rich man) and his ex-wife Dhammadinnaa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > S: Do you agree with the Buddha that what Mahaakacaana and other great disciples answered was "true teachings of the Buddha", Buddhavacana? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I accept as "Buddha's dhammas" even though it was not 'Buddha's vacana'. ... S: You already agreed with the quote above from the Atthasalini, the Teachings as given by Mahaakacaana and other great disciples was "the word of the Buddha", "Buddhavacana". You also told me before about the great respect in Burma by you and others for these ancient commentaries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: > > If so, do you also agree with what we continue to read in the same text: > > ."Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. > > "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I accept the whole Kathaavatthu as "Buddha's dhammas" even though it (the current text) was not 'Buddha's vacana'. ... S: Again, you are indicating a lack of respect for and confidence in the ancient commentaries which refer here to these texts as "Buddha vacana". .... > After 3rd Buddhists Council there arised many A.t.thakathaa and many were in Sinhalese. There Sinhalese A.t.thakathaa texts were learned by "Ven. Buddhaghosa" and he translated them into 'Magadhii' > or 'the language Paa.li'. > > Ven. Buddhaghosa did not change anything in "the original Buddha's teachings or Paa.li texts". ... S: And this is why the Mahavihara Theras knew them to be "Buddhavacana". Metta Sarah ====== #132614 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:47 pm Subject: Hardness now as compared to awareness of hardness now ( wasRe: thinking and sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Thank you for all your very good-humoured discussions:-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > >Htoo: I wrote "There can be awareness of hardness without panna." > > When hit by a stone, there is hardness. Hardness is known. Even by cats, dogs, foxes, wolves. aracteristics of hardness. > ... > S: So it seems that you think there is sati whenever hardness is experienced, such as when animals are hit by stones, when touching land and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Without panna, it can still be kusala. Because sati is sobhana cetasika. > > An animal [Bodhisatta naaga] experienced hardness [hit by a stone thrown be children] and endured it [khanti]. There is sati. > > For other animals_ not common. ... S: Oh, so it was the Bodhisatta naaga you had in mind in the top example:-)) Metta Sarah ===== #132615 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Another good-humoured discussion and appreciate the brief replies without too much side-stepping:-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah: > > > When you refer to "really seeing realities", would you agree that these realities to be seen are the same khandhas referred to? (This is for Thomas:-)) > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Htoo: > > Khandhaas, aayatanas, dhaatus are there in the texts if they are not seen not sensed. They are to be really seen and sensed. ... S: So you agree that khandhas, ayatanas and dhatus are realities to be "really seen" or understood? If they were not realities, they could not be understood. .. >Htoo: If seen and sensed the teachings will be long-lasting. If not seen and sensed then the teaching will regress to disappearance. ... S: We agree. Khandhas, realities, to be directly known! Please agree one more time and then explain it all to Thomas! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You can be taught from 'A' to 'Z' how to swim in the classroom. S: and the practice has to accord with the classroom theory! Metta Sarah ====== #132616 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:07 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Sukin, > Conventional reality being shadows of ultimate reality is saying that, > the former are products of the thinking process, itself a reality, based > on the rising and falling away of the latter. So no one is saying > anything about them being separate. >... > Shadows are shadows, not hallucinations. >... > The Abhidhamma Sangaha does not say this, shadows does not mean > "distorted". > ... > Were there no ultimate realities rising and falling away, there would > not be concepts / conventional reality. No one is denying the usefulness > of concepts, be it to point out realities or other concepts. What we are > saying is that while they can be used to point out ultimate realities, > this is all that they can do. > ... > Concepts are neither distortions nor hallucinations, these latter are > functions of ignorance and wrong understanding. > > What we are saying is that while concepts can be used to point at > ultimate realities, this is all that they can do in this regard. They > can't be broken down into ultimate realities, because they are products > of thinking. Therefore any analysis is done only by way of more > thinking, in other words, more concepts. Being shadows of ultimate > realities, they can't be "worked out" in order to understand those > ultimate realities. To suggest that this can be done is akin to thinking > that a book can be lifted off the table by trying to lift its shadow. Thanks for this summary on concepts, it's the best one I've read so far. > Pariyatti is intellectual understanding about present moment realities. I was wondering how do you understand the difference between theoretical understanding and pariyatti in terms of concepts? What I mean is considering the Dhamma without panna, vs. considering it with panna (actual pariyatti). Thanks Here's a quote from SPD that got me to wondering about this: "Some people believe that at times they experience that there is nothing that belongs to a self. They wonder why they did not have such an experience before. Formerly they used to believe that there was a self and things belonging to a self. However, because they often listened to the Dhamma they came to the conclusion that there is nothing which belongs to a self and that they should not cling to such a wrong view anymore. This is only thinking about the truth. Theoretical understanding is not enough, because it cannot eradicate defilements. If a person does not realize that he has merely theoretical understanding he may mistakenly believe that he has already a great deal of pańńa and that he will soon attain enlightenment. People may think in such a way because they have found out something they did not know before and they take this knowledge for something extraordinary." Best wishes pt #132617 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:32 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. jonoabb Hi Alex and Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > ... > If one needs to attain N8P for stream entry, then one needs to attain 4 jhanas which form 8th part of N8P called samma-samadhi. > > No need to mention Jhanas because it is assumed whenever N8P is mentioned. > =============== J: It's a question of what the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) is. Some people see the individual factors of the NEP as being 8 separate (and unrelated) sets of instructions, or things to be done. The description of each factor is read as a stand-alone activity or thing to be done (e.g., in the case of samma-samadhi, the attainment of one of the 4 mundane jhanas). It is not clear to me in what sense the 8 factors so understood are regarded as a `path'. To my understanding, the NEP is, as the name suggests, a path comprising 8 factors (Pali: atthanga), that is to say, a path that exists when all 8 factors are present. This simultaneous arising of the 8 factors occurs at the moment of supramundane path consciousness, the consciousness that occurs at each of the 4 stages of enlightenment. As regards samma-samadhi, the traditional Theravada view as set out in the Pali Canon is summarised in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and commentaries (CMA) as follows: ************************ All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the development of wisdom (pa~n~naa) - insight into the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samaadhi). - Those who develop insight without a basis of jhaana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding to the first jhaana. - Those who develop insight on the basis of jhaana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhaana they had attained before reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhaana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhaana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhaanas, and because they possess the jhaana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhaanas. (From the Guide to paras 30 and 31 of Ch. VII of CMA (translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha)). ************************ J: Bhikkhu Bodhi's summary from the commentaries goes on to discuss how the concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness differs from the concentration of mundane jhana. ************************ The supramundane jhaanas of the paths and fruits differ from the mundane jhaanas in several important respects. - First, whereas the mundane jhaanas take as their object some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane jhaanas take as their object Nibbaana, the unconditioned reality. - Second, whereas the mundane jhaanas merely suppress the defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the supramundane jhaanas of the path eradicate defilements so that they can never again arise. - Third, while the mundane jhaanas lead to rebirth in the fine-material world and thus sustain existence in the round of rebirths, the jhaanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and death. - Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhaanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane jhaanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths. ************************ Note that, according to this, "mundane jhaanas lead to rebirth in the fine-material world and thus sustain existence in the round of rebirths". Jon #132618 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas rjkjp1 > > > A: Also let us not forget "emergent property". This totally wrecks the entire "chariot simile". And while a whole is made of parts, it is NOT reducible them. So with this in mind, how can we say that a person is reducible to citta/cetasika/rupa ? --------------- Dear Alex What do you think of this sutta by the Buddha? http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-12.htm We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch.IV, par. 205, The Lute) that the Buddha said to the monks: ' ... Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a rajah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: 'Good man, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?' Then they say to him : 'That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind.' Then he says: 'Go, my man. Fetch me that lute.' So they fetch him that lute and say to him : 'This, lord, is that lute, the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.' Then he says: 'Enough of this lute, my man. Fetch me that sound.' They say to him: 'This lute so called, lord, consists of divers parts, a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the handle, the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers parts, of great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts.' Then that rajah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. Having done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he burns it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of ashes in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a river. Then he says: 'A poor thing is what you call a lute, a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.' Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities (sankharakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is scope for consciousness, - -in all of these investigations, whatever there be of 'I' or 'I am' or 'Mine', there is none of that for him'. robert #132619 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:03 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Pt, all, >But walking up the stairs seems to be neither. What would you say is >kusala about it? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If one can't notice gross things like that, then how can one notice much more subtle things like "realities" occuring now? Also the mind that is let to run freely, can think about akusala. >In your experiences, when you were aware that you are sitting, or walking, or breathing (so things mentioned in satipatthana sutta), what is the difference between just thinking about it (even though it's in a very clear and non-verbal fashion like it occurs in meditation) as opposed to actual panna arising in such situations, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that panna could be increasing little by little from every moment of mindfulness. And the skill at not letting the mind wander might contribute to mind uncontrollably running wild into fantasies, past/future which are things not happening now. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #132620 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:11 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hello Pt, RobE, all, >RE: Why not instead do >everything the >Buddha prescribed... > >p: Because those of us with weak understanding are likely to >misunderstand what he's saying and do it with wrong view - a complete >opposite to what he was encouraging. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, you have the assumption that compilers of canon were incompetent and couldn't explain the sutta clearly so that we could understand it. >A: Also let us not forget "emergent property". This totally wrecks the entire "chariot simile". And while a whole is made of parts, it is NOT reducible them. So with this in mind, how can we say that a person is reducible to citta/cetasika/rupa ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >p: Reducing things to parts is thinking. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So then reductionist teaching in post canonical Abhidhamma is that. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex #132621 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:15 pm Subject: Re: anatta and puggalo truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, You have provided an interpretation from a pali sutta (world is void). Errors in translation can be totally misleading. The Buddha didn't deny self or person (puggala). He denied a certain narrow metaphysical principles that Brahmins in 5th century bc India held. >A: It talked about ancient Hindu metaphysical idea of Atman. Not >necessarily a non-metaphysical self, or puggala which Buddha didn't >deny. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >S: Can you find a puggala in the sutta quoted? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is bhara sutta and attakari sutta. With best wishes, Alex #132622 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:17 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:Can you be calm at will now? Who would like to so calm now? Doesn't >such wishing and trying just lead to more agitation and disturbance >when it's not as one would wish? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can I play a piano now? Not unless I was practicing for a long time. Could the same be with skill in samatha? BTW, some monks could attain calm at will. It is one of the skills in samatha, to attain it at will. With best wishes, Alex #132623 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:21 pm Subject: Re: anatta, control, faulty arguments. truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >S:Can you control what seeing sees now, what hearing hears now, what >thinking thinks about now? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can decide to look to the left and see what is there. I can decide to look to the right and see there. I can decide to listen to this or that mp3 file on my computer. If I decide to think "what is 1+1?" I can do that. >Can you have calm at will now? Can you control whether pleasant or >painful bodily feeling arises now or not? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have much skill in samatha yet, but those people who do - often can control many things about what they feel and don't feel. >S: Is seeing dhamma? Is visible object dhamma? When hardness is >experienced now, is it real? Does it belong to a self? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It depends what is implied by "belonging to a self". With best wishes, Alex #132624 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, I get a really good feeling from you by your posts. You are asking for a lot of work on my part but I will try to comply ;-): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > JK: Yes, in Uposatha days, some followers stay on 8 precepts of sila but I can not found in any texts showing that they meditated as well in this day as you explained. > James: Well, what "texts" are you referring to? Do you mean some sort of Pali texts that give a run-down of everyone who attended every Buddhist temple, on what Uposatha Day they attended, and how many hours and minutes they spent in sitting meditation?? Sorry, but the NSA wasn't around in those days. :-))) We don't have any spy information from that time period. We just have to surmise the best we can. Did you read the article I linked to you? > ================== > > > James: Are you serious? You really don't know what you would do? I hope you aren't just pulling my leg. > > JK: Of course not ! James. I really want to know. > James: Okay, I will take your word for it. Some students of KS just like to bait meditators for the fun of it- and those meditators like to get involved in prolonged squabbles just for the fun of it. I don't find that kind of nonsense fun anymore, so please don't waste my time. > > James: Well, first of all, you would need to turn off True Blood. You can't watch TV and meditate. Television is DEFINITELY not a wholesome object of meditation! :-) > > JK: Ok, good start ;) > James: I am glad we can agree on something. > > JK: I'm familiar with this type of position, OK. But bring mindfulness to the front ?? of my mind ?? need more explanation, please. > James: The Buddha just said to bring mindfulness to the front. Now, did he mean the front of your body and ignore the backside of your body?? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. I think he mean that you need to bring mindfulness to the front of your mind. Make it the most important thing you are doing at that time. He was using a common expression of that time period. > JK: This is what I'm not familiar with. From what I know, the most popular meditation technics are 2 kinds. One is focusing on breath in and out. Second is focusing on your belly which swells and deflates. I don't think being mindful on body, feeling, mind and dhamma can bring good concentration as you explained. > James: I sympathize because it can be rather confusing. It seems like everyday there is a new meditation teacher trying to become famous by teaching a new technique!! The Buddha taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. It doesn't matter how you fulfill those, they all lead to the same place. If you chose to do Breath Mindfulness, you can focus on the breath at the nostrils; or you can focus on the breath at the belly (which I don't like to do because I feel so fat!! ;-); or you can focus on the breath through out the whole body. It doesn't matter where you focus, as long as you stay within the body. If you can stay within the body then wholesome concentration will naturally arise and jhana will naturally arise. That is just what is going to happen!! If you believe in the Buddha's teachings then you have to believe in ALL ALL ALL of the Buddha's teachings. You can't just pick and choose. > > JK: I think if you slip into jhanna, your mind should be in deep serene and empty. Or what is your understanding about stage of jhanna? What level you are in? Can you explain more about stage of jhanna? I'm curious that what can one break into the truth of reality with that empty stage of mind ?? > James: Oh Jesus, no one can explain everything to you before you do it!!! You just have to take a risk and do it. There will be many pitfalls and summits during your meditation. After all, we all have a lot of karma to work through. You just have to have faith that this is the right path and the right teacher taught it to you. If you don't have faith in that, I don't have much more to say than to wish you good luck in your life's endeavors. > > JK: I think the one who has been skillful with previous jhanna will never waste his time watching TV like us, don't you think ?. > James: LOLOLOL!!! Yeah, maybe you have a point...but maybe you don't. It is useless to compare yourself to arahants of the past to see if you measure up. That is a really dead-end and fruitless endeavor. Those arahants of the past had a lot of baggage to work through first. And we have a lot of baggage to work through also. In the meantime, I enjoy the TV series True Blood because it is so gay and so supernatural! hehehe...that is me. So, find out who you are and OWN IT!! > Thank you > > Jagkrit > Metta, James #132625 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:28 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >J:It's a question of what the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) is. >Some people see the individual factors of the NEP as being 8 separate >(and unrelated) sets of instructions, or things to be done. The >description of each factor is read as a stand-alone activity or thing >to be done (e.g., in the case of samma-samadhi, the attainment of one >of the 4 mundane jhanas). It is not clear to me in what sense the 8 >factors so understood are regarded as a `path'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All 8 factors can be completed while doing anapanasati sitting in seclusion. In Ptsm it says that anapanasati can fulfill training in higher sila, samadhi, panna. >J:Bhikkhu Bodhi's summary from the commentaries goes on to discuss >how the concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness >differs from the concentration of mundane jhana. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If one does the above, it will not be mundane Jhana. With best wishes, Alex #132626 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. truth_aerator Hello James, Jagkrit, all, >JK: Yes, in Uposatha days, some followers stay on 8 precepts of sila >?>but I can not found in any texts showing that they meditated as well in >this day as you explained. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >James: Well, what "texts" are you referring to? Do you mean some sort >of Pali texts that give a run-down of everyone who attended every >Buddhist temple, on what Uposatha Day they attended, and how many hours >and minutes they spent in sitting meditation?? Sorry, but the NSA >wasn't around in those days. :-))) We don't have any spy information >from that time period. We just have to surmise the best we can. Did you >read the article I linked to you? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :) Good reply, James. What I wanted to add is that suttas obviously don't contain all the details from the life of this or that Arhant. When we hear the story of how a certain ascetic met the Buddha, heard a short sutta teaching and got instantly awakened, it doesn't mean that it is all we should do. "Just develop [intellectual] understanding and you will be awakened just like him". Suttas focus on Buddha's sermons. They don't have space to contain all the minute-by-minute life of some person prior to meeting the Buddha. What if that person was an ascetic meditating 20 years for 20 hours a day 7 days a week and thus was "5 minutes till Arhatship"? Of course it sounds great to "develop understanding and become an Arhat", but does it work? I wish it did. With best wishes, Alex #132627 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex, > >But walking up the stairs seems to be neither. What would you say is >kusala about it? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If one can't notice gross things like that, then how can one notice much more subtle things like "realities" occuring now? I guess my question was a bit different - is what you describe kusala at all? And on what basis are you sure that it is? I'm not so sure it's kusla, what probably makes it akusala, which means I haven't even made even the very first baby-step - knowing the difference between a moment with sati and the moment without it. > I think that panna could be increasing little by little from every moment of mindfulness. I agree, but my question was relating to the issue whether what I think is mindfulness is really mindfulness, or just calm concentration rooted in lobha, for example. Best wishes pt #132628 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:08 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex, > Well, you have the assumption that compilers of canon were incompetent > and couldn't explain the sutta clearly so that we could understand it. That's not quite fair to say. I think I was saying something quite different - that it's you and me who are incompetent. In other words, suttas were taught (and then compiled if you want) for those with little dust in their eyes. It's unreasonable imo to expect that we would be able to understand the texts as well as they would. Just like you can't expect an average 10 year old to understand what's actually being said in the brain surgery journal, no matter how well the journal is edited, and despite the fact the the kid knows the meaning of the individual words. > So then reductionist teaching in post canonical Abhidhamma is that. Not sure what you mean. All that stuff in commentaries on vithi-cittas and kalapas can still be known by panna, I take it. So, none of it has to do with thinking about the world. Well, at least as much as I know commentaries, which is not much. Best wishes pt #132629 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:20 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Pt, all, >Alex:Well, you have the assumption that compilers of canon were >incompetent and couldn't explain the sutta clearly so that we could >understand it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Pt:That's not quite fair to say. I think I was saying something quite >different - that it's you and me who are incompetent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that we are incompetent in applying what the suttas tell us to do. I think that it is problematic to say that "When sutta says X, it really means not-X". >In other words, suttas were taught (and then compiled if you want) >for those with little dust in their eyes. It's unreasonable imo to >expect that we would be able to understand the texts as well as they >would. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is possible that "dust in the eyes" means defilements that can be suppressed with samatha. I often have this thought that the difficulty in understanding the suttas is not like difficulty in understanding calculus or some high level astro-physics book, I think that difficulty is to put the instruction into practice. ""And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html Maybe that is how sutta instructions to be "understood". And here is the difficulty... Hard work... With best wishes, Alex #132630 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:35 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, >I guess my question was a bit different - is what you describe kusala >at all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Intentionally developing a skill to avoid unwholesome thoughts is right effort. It is restraint. >what I think is mindfulness is really mindfulness, or just calm >concentration rooted in lobha, for example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even if it initially contains moments of lobha, so what? We need to start where we are and you, again, can't expect on to be perfect from the get go. What is important is improvement, however small and not noticeable at first. I've read about some sort of a tree. You plant the seed, keep watering it for like 5 years, don't see any growth, and then in very short period of time huge tree grows. Maybe for some people sati is like that? At first it appears that there is no progress, sometimes so much so that person wants to give up (or kill oneself). But then rapid progress can occur. ============================================== "Twenty five years since my going forth, and no peace of awareness — not a finger-snap's worth —attained. Having gained no oneness of mind, I was wracked with lust. Wailing, with my arms upheld, I ran amok from my dwelling — "Or... or shall I take the knife? What's the use of life to me? If I were to renounce the training, what sort of death would I have?" So, taking a razor, I sat down on a bed. And there was the razor, placed ready to cut my own vein, when apt attention arose in me, the drawbacks appeared, disenchantment stood at an even keel: With that, my heart was released. See the Dhamma's true rightness! The three knowledges have been attained; the Awakened One's bidding, done." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thag/thag.06.06.than.html ================================================ With best wishes, Alex #132631 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:57 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Dear RobertK, all, > What do you think of this sutta by the Buddha? The argument in that sutta is fallacious. I am sorry for all those people who believe in that argument. You can't find liquid in hydrogen or oxygen atom either... In some cases the whole is NOT sum of its parts, but a totally new quality. Water is liquid which is made from certain combination of gases (hydrogen and oxygen). It is emergent property not found in its parts. Similar about "eye can't control what it sees". Correct, an eye cannot. But a person can choose to look left, right, up or down, turn on tv on this or that channel and see different things. Top down conditionality. With best wishes, Alex #132632 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:12 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas htoonaing... Dear pt, Thanks for your discussion on cetasikas in NEP and realted mind states. As you said, panna is important. Without it is mostly to be akusala even though there are circumstances that kusala can arise without panna. Again kusalas are daana, siila, bhaavana. In bhaavana the most important is panna. Because bhaavana is panna-work. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------pt wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your response. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Assume the study (theoretically) is finished. All parts in NEP are important. Even though 8 parts there are more cetasikas than 8. 8 parts are named as magga`ngas. But all other associated cetasikas are also important. > > > > I some time directed to effort. Some time to concentration. All active DSGs concentrate on understanding. That is why someone now active at DSG said 'N1P' and nore more N8P in DSG. > > > > Cetanaa (volition) is the leader in sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa of NEP. > > Without it there will not even be citta. Cetanaa is kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pt wrote: Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that when it comes to NEP, right view is the forerunner, since panna is one of the 3 root cetasikas. Cetana, chanda, sanna and the rest will accord to the roots, not the other way around. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Panna in the form of right-view is the forerunner. NEP when it is the highest (magga kha.na) do arise all 8 magga`ngas. NEP starts with vipassanaa that is true vipassanaa and ends with fruition-consciousness or phala-citta (phala kha.na). Magga and phala when arise for the first time are fleeting. They just last a moment like magga-phala-phala or magga-phala-phala-phala. Then sinks in bhava`nga kha.nas. When paccavekkha.naa happen there is no more magga or phala kha.na. But at that time NEP will be N5P as in vipassanaa. --------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: Further, I was under the impression that NEP factors arise together at the same time, not separately. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: At the time of magga-viithi it is yes. There are all 8 arise together. But before this specific time there is sammaa-vaacaa or sammaa-kammanta or sammaa-aajiiva or even no viratii-cetasika. I do not believe NEP is separate and I do not think NEP is separate. But in terms of their degrees they may or may not work in their full jobs. There also is saddhaa in conjunction with NEP as saddhaa is a sobhana cetasika. As indriya-dhamma saddhaa may be out of proportion to panna. Like wise viriya may also be out of proportion to samaadhi. While there is panna all the time in bhaavana (true bhaavana) it has to be proportionally in equilibrium with saddhaa. Viiriya and samaadhi also have to be in the same relationship. If pannaa is there but weak in saddhaa, viriya, sati, samaadhi and so on it will not work fully its job. When a king goes out there are associated ministers and followers. But if king goes alone his work will not be as effective as when he is with his ministers and followers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: So, if there's no panna (right view), there will be none of the other NEP factors present at that moment either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: Therefore, I think it's reasonable to conclude that if panna arises very rarely for beginners like me, all the other factors of the NEP are absent in all those moments without panna as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If there is saddhaa there will be sati, hiri, ottappa, adosa, alobha, tatramajjhattataa, and 12 sobhana cetasikas of passaddhi, lahutaa, mudutaa, kamma~n~nataa, paagu~n~nataa, and ujukataa. Karu.naa and muditaa do not include when bhaavanaa is vipassanaa and not appama~n~naa kamma.t.thaana. Likewise there is no viratii cetasikas yet in kaamaavacara vipassanaa. Even panna is left for a moment or so, there are sobhana cetasikas if there is saddhaa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: In fact, it's likely most such moments are akusala, if there's no dana and sila. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agee and I have said this above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: Thus, the attempt to increase effort (or any of the other factors), is likely akusala (with lobha) - since there's no panna, nor other factors of the NEP at such times. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. Va`ncanaa dhammas may behave as if they are true dhamma. Mostly lobha. I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: Whether such attempt will also have wrong view would depend on whether it's done in a ritualised fashion - believing that a practiced ritual might bring desired results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If kammassakata sammaa-ditthi leading to jhaana samaa-ditthi leading to vipassanaa sammaa-ditthi it is not harmful whether *action* is outwardly ritual or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: The only time when the wish (chanda) to increase effort (or any of the other NEP factors) is kusala would be when panna appreciates the value of a particular kusala factor. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. --------------------------------------------------------------------- pt wrote: So, again, panna is the forerunner. I guess those with highly developed wisdom would be able to appreciate effort (or any other factor) as it truly is, and thus develop them individually, so to speak. I myself can't distinguish between effort, wish, decision, concentration, etc. Best wishes pt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: effort, wish, decision, concentration, etc? Are these "viriya, chanda, adhimokkha, ekaggataa, etc"? We all are not skilful to be in kusala all the time when we are conscious. Sleeping time(deep sleep only) and bhava`ngas time are taking the past object (aaramma.na). If in viithi processes we will be mostly in akusala. We cannot control dhamma. We cannot control akusala-dhamma not to arise. But when pass through right tract akusala arise less and less and kusala arise more and more. If not daana or siila kusalas have to be bhaavanaa. These bhaavanaas are developing proliferating. Proliferating here means kusala (bhaavanaa) arise and fall away. Again kusala arise and fall away. These are kaamaavacara kusala. Between these bhaavanaa-kusalas are bhava`ngas(non-poisonous), vipaaka(may be poisonous if not cognised as dhammas) and kiriyaa(pa~ncadvaaraavajjana and manodvaaraavajjana_non-poisonous). In these process each citta has vedana as accompanying factor. When vedana in five-sense door is cognized as agreeable there will be likeness in the first few series of viithi. With development of bhaavanaa these cittas with likeness arise less and less. If cognized as unagreeable there will be dislikeness and the same have to be done (bhaavanaa) to lessen arising of these dislikeness. If vedanaa is cognized as neither agreeable or disagreeable there arise indifference. Moha is to arise if vedanaa is not truely cognized. "Cakkhu~nca pa.ticca ruupeca cakkhuvi~n~naa.nam. Ti.n.na.m sa`ngati phassao. Phassa paccayaa vedanaa. Vedanaa paccayaa ta.nhaa." This likeness lies dormant if vedanaa was not rightly cognized. Anuseti. So that ta.nhaa becomes raagaanusaya. If dislikeness happen pa.tghaanusaya lies dormant. If indifferent avijjaanusaya lies dormant. All this is because "vedanaa" is missed to be cognized truely in its nature. If "ruupa" was cognized and likeness arisse the same happens. If "cakkhu" was cognized and likeness arises the same happens. If "cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m" was cognized and likeness arises the same happens. If cognition goes to "cakkhusamphassa", "ruupa-sa~n~naa", "ruupasa~ncetanaa", "ruupa-ta.nhaa", "ruupa-vitakko", and "ruupavicaaro" the same happens. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132633 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:06 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and RobertK) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear RobertK, all, > > > What do you think of this sutta by the Buddha? > > > The argument in that sutta is fallacious. I am sorry for all those people who believe in that argument. > > > You can't find liquid in hydrogen or oxygen atom either... > > In some cases the whole is NOT sum of its parts, but a totally new quality. Water is liquid which is made from certain combination of gases (hydrogen and oxygen). It is emergent property not found in its parts. > > Similar about "eye can't control what it sees". Correct, an eye cannot. But a person can choose to look left, right, up or down, turn on tv on this or that channel and see different things. Top down conditionality. > > With best wishes, > > Alex > ================================== Alex, what is "the person" except a temporal flow of interrelated mental and physical phenomena? When we say that a person controls which way s/he looks, all that really amounts to is that certain phenonmena within that cross-temporal aggregation (or "flow") arise, phenomena including thinking and desiring and wiling and expending effort/energy, which, together, are sufficient conditions for head and eye movement of a certain sort, i.e. certain rupas. Is that not so? What else might "a person" be? What IS such a thing other than what I said at the start? With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132634 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:54 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >what is "the person" except a temporal flow of interrelated mental and >physical phenomena? >========================================================== A person is emergent phenomenom of those mental & physical dhammas. Person is non-reducible to them, and is like water to hydrogen & oxygen. With metta, Alex #132635 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:49 am Subject: Re: edited audio from Vietnam 2012 and Kaeng Krachan, June 2013 glenjohnann Dear Tam, Sarah, Jon, Azita, Maeve, Nina and all Thanks for your note, Tam. I look forward to listening to the uploaded Viet Nam 2012 recordings. Great that you are translating some of them! To all others - looking forward to seeing you in Thailand in Jan. 2014. Unfortunately just does not work out for me to be away in Viet Nam now - would be lovely though, no doubt. All the best for your discussions over the next few weeks. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Tam Bach wrote: > > Dear  Jon, Sarah, Azita, Nina, Ann & all, > >  > > S:    the Bkk & KK June 2013 series (with Annie & Lan) is almost finished and is the best set of audio for those new to Dhamma and not familiar with Pali terms to listen to > > Tam B: Indeed Sarah, we have started to listen to the series and even have done some translations. Excellent! > > --------------------------- > > S: the Vietnam 2012 series has at least been started! We've uploaded quite a few of the non-formal sessions, such as at meals and on bus trips and on the boat. We hope to keep working on this series and adding more discussions. They take a little more work than other sets, which is why other sets have jumped the queue! > > S:  I am even amazed that you and Jon managed to edit them. Must have been lots of work! We are posting bits and parts of the discussions on our website and FB and it seems to get some positive responses from those who intend to participate in the Discussions. I've found that just a few exchanges at a time helps those who are new to the way TA explains the Dhamma to appreciate  better the wisdom in it and to consider it more carefully. > > The Saigon and Vung tau discussions are getting close. We all are getting excited (almost 20 will be coming from the North). It is really a pity that Nina, Azita, Ann, Meave, Sukin and others can not join us this time. We don't know how our friends in the south will respond to many challenging ideas, so it is kind of suspense to us too :-) > > Looking forward to seeing you all either in Vietnam or in Thailand Jan 2014! > > Metta, > > Tam B > > > ====== > > > > > > > > #132636 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:08 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas kenhowardau Hi Pt, Thanks for the question. -------- <. . .> > Pt: In your experiences, when you were aware that you are sitting, or walking, or breathing (so things mentioned in satipatthana sutta), what is the difference between just thinking about it (even though it's in a very clear and non-verbal fashion like it occurs in meditation) as opposed to actual panna arising in such situations, the latter being what satipatthana sutta is actually describing I guess. Thanks --------- KH: In my case the difference was between (1) trying to do Buddhist meditation before I knew what the Buddha had taught and (2) having a theoretical understanding of the Buddha's teaching. In the former case I was essentially trying to see impermanence in things that were permanent. I was also trying to see conditionality in things that were not conditioned, and I was trying to see myself as without self. It was an impossible task that could only have ended in disaster. Thank heavens for DSG! Ken H #132637 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:56 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, all, > > >what is "the person" except a temporal flow of interrelated mental and >physical phenomena? > >========================================================== > > A person is emergent phenomenom of those mental & physical dhammas. > Person is non-reducible to them, and is like water to hydrogen & oxygen. > > > With metta, > > Alex > ============================== That "emergent phenomenon" called "a person" - exactly what in the world sort of phenomenon IS it? An abstraction? (That's just concept.) How does it differ from all those namas and rupas acting in concert? The puggalavadins claimed that "a person" is some "thing" neither the same as nor different from the underlying phenomena. I don't believe in any such thing. Why do you? What is wrong with interrelated phenomena acting in concert? When looked for, no person-thing is ever found, but only the interrelated mental and physical phenomena arising and ceasing, some simultaneously and others at differing moments. When such an endless stream is *thought* of as a single, individual entity, one SAYS "person," but, in fact, there is not any such individual entity. With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #132638 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:43 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >That "emergent phenomenon" called "a person" - exactly what in the >world sort of phenomenon IS it? An abstraction? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like water, it is a new quality not found in its parts. >(That's just concept.) How does it differ from all those namas and >rupas acting in concert? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A person can control (within limits of course) namas and rupas. For example make a choice to look in a certain direction and then do it. You can also eat when hungry, and put on more cloth when cold. >The puggalavadins claimed that "a person" is some "thing" neither the >same as nor different from the underlying phenomena. I don't believe >in any such thing. Why do you? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't believe that people exist? Then I don't know how to continue discussion. > What is wrong with interrelated phenomena acting in concert? >>>>>>>> A person is a qualitatively higher process than dhammas. >When looked for, no person-thing is ever found, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And when you look at a chair through electron microscope you don't find it. It doesn't prevent you from sitting on it. Of course if you refused to see a person, you will not see it. I would like you to be honest with yourself, no need to answer it here: When you talk to someone, do you perceive the other person or some series of momentary dhammas arising and falling? With metta, Alex #132639 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:47 am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 87 - Volition/cetanaa (q) philofillet Dear Group Here is a useful post on what "volition means in the Dhamma. Of course it is different from what comfort-seekers sutting on cushions want it to mean: I highlight one part: > "We should consider why we want to perform kusala kamma. Is > our aim kusala vipaaka?" I think we are seeking pleasant vipaaka most of the time when we consider Dhamma, seeking comfort. (Even if we are not seeking pleasant mind states in a blatant way, through ritual cushion play.) We have to be honest about that. Please enjoy the rest of the post. Phil > >From 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > ***** > There is no self who can force citta to be kusala citta, but conditions > can be cultivated so that kusala citta can arise more often. Important > conditions for the arising of kusala citta with pańń are friendship with > a person who has right understanding of the Dhamma and who can explain > the Dhamma in the right way, listening to the teachings and > studying them, and above all mindfulness of the reality which > appears now. > > We should consider why we want to perform kusala kamma. Is > our aim kusala vipĺka? Kusala kamma produces kusala vipĺka > because this is the natural course of things, but if we want to > perform kusala kamma in order to have a pleasant result, such as > a happy rebirth, there is clinging. The aim of the Buddha's teachings > is the eradication of defilements. Wholesome deeds will be purer > if we perform them because we see the benefit of eliminating > defilements. Since human life is very short we should not lose > any opportunity for dĺna, sú‰a or bhĺvan. If we develop the > eightfold Path there will eventually be purification of all > defilements. > ***** > [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #132640 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:00 am Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. jonoabb Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, all, > > > >J:It's a question of what the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) is. > >Some people see the individual factors of the NEP as being 8 separate >(and unrelated) sets of instructions, or things to be done. The >description of each factor is read as a stand-alone activity or thing >to be done (e.g., in the case of samma-samadhi, the attainment of one >of the 4 mundane jhanas). It is not clear to me in what sense the 8 >factors so understood are regarded as a `path'. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > All 8 factors can be completed while doing anapanasati sitting in seclusion. In Ptsm it says that anapanasati can fulfill training in higher sila, samadhi, panna. > =============== J: I'm not questioning anything that is said in Ptsm. The question you raised in your earlier message was whether mundane jhana must be attained before there can be the development of awareness/insight or the attainment of supramundane path consciousness. The traditional view as set out in the Pali Canon is that jhana is not a prerequisite. > =============== > >J:Bhikkhu Bodhi's summary from the commentaries goes on to discuss >how the concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness >differs from the concentration of mundane jhana. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > If one does the above, it will not be mundane Jhana. > =============== J: Yes, but why focus on anapanasati while sitting in seclusion when that is not part of one's life? What about awareness/insight as we go through the day - does that not interest you? :-)) Jon #132641 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:32 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > > JK: Yes, in Uposatha days, some followers stay on 8 precepts of sila but I can not found in any texts showing that they meditated as well in this day as you explained. > James: Well, what "texts" are you referring to? JK: I means the only suttas you accept from "Tipitaka". > James: Do you mean some sort of Pali texts that give a run-down of everyone who attended every Buddhist temple, JK: No, including your reference: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha.html as well. > James: on what Uposatha Day they attended, and how many hours and minutes they spent in sitting meditation?? Sorry, but the NSA wasn't around in those days. :-))) We don't have any spy information from that time period. JK: It is true. Boy ! I' have loved NSA being around at that time. Then we would be assured that what is meditation ? > James: We just have to surmise the best we can. Did you read the article I linked to you? JK: But your best assumption is quite questionable to me because you deny all ancient commentaries and texts but you accept your reference in "accesstionsight" website. And yes, I've read this article which doesn't identify an author. The article jumps to conclusion that there is meditation in Uposatha day while citing the suttas below, any of which don't mention about meditation at all, except 8 eight factors which the Ariyan disciple observes. How can this piece of doubtful evidence can be admissible? > > ================== > > JK: I'm familiar with this type of position, OK. But bring mindfulness to the front ?? of my mind ?? need more explanation, please. > James: The Buddha just said to bring mindfulness to the front. Now, did he mean the front of your body and ignore the backside of your body?? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. I think he mean that you need to bring mindfulness to the front of your mind. Make it the most important thing you are doing at that time. He was using a common expression of that time period. JK: Yes, James. This Buddha instruction is quite difficult to understand and I think it is not just common awareness as we're familiar with nowadays. Surely, there shall be some more understanding before "bring mindfulness to the front". At lease knowing what is "mind"? ================ > James: I sympathize because it can be rather confusing. It seems like everyday there is a new meditation teacher trying to become famous by teaching a new technique!! JK: It is so true. There shall more than a hundred meditation techniques nowadays. > James: The Buddha taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. It doesn't matter how you fulfill those, they all lead to the same place. JK: Ok, if we're on the right understand. > James: If you chose to do Breath Mindfulness, you can focus on the breath at the nostrils; or you can focus on the breath at the belly (which I don't like to do because I feel so fat!! ;-); JK: I don't like it either. I'm on diet now. :( > James: or you can focus on the breath through out the whole body. It doesn't matter where you focus, as long as you stay within the body. If you can stay within the body then wholesome concentration will naturally arise and jhana will naturally arise. JK: I think it is very difficult. Because our mind can not be controllable. It's like a wild monkey jumping around, not only an old oak tree. > James: That is just what is going to happen!! If you believe in the Buddha's teachings then you have to believe in ALL ALL ALL of the Buddha's teachings. You can't just pick and choose. JK: I do hope so. And I'm Truly, Truly, Truly believe in the Lord Buddha's teaching. But I'm also believe that his teaching is very deep and subtle. I'm, therefore, very carefully studying his teaching, not take any word for granted unless it is understandable. ==================== > > JK: I think if you slip into jhanna, your mind should be in deep serene and empty. Or what is your understanding about stage of jhanna? What level you are in? Can you explain more about stage of jhanna? I'm curious that what can one break into the truth of reality with that empty stage of mind ?? > James: Oh Jesus, JK: Sound strange !! > James: no one can explain everything to you before you do it!!! You just have to take a risk and do it. There will be many pitfalls and summits during your meditation. JK: This is very familiar explanation from many jhanna lovers I've met. > James: After all, we all have a lot of karma to work through. JK: Yes, we've been working on uncountable karma everyday. I do hope that we can separate among kusala karma and akusala karma. > James: You just have to have faith that this is the right path and the right teacher taught it to you. If you don't have faith in that, I don't have much more to say than to wish you good luck in your life's endeavors. JK: My faith will be expanded if I can understand everything with reason. Not like NIKI "just do it" :) > James: ............And we have a lot of baggage to work through also. In the meantime, I enjoy the TV series True Blood because it is so gay and so supernatural! hehehe...that is me. So, find out who you are and OWN IT!! JK: True Blood is OK. But I like "Walking Dead" better !! But these shouldn't be baggages to work through, yes ? I don't want to find out who am I but rather find out what am I :) Thank you and Anumodhana Jagkrit #132642 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:13 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada glenjohnann Dear Sarah, Azita and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > > one question: is metta as simple as just being friendly.? Some days it seems so easy to smile at a stranger walking by, for no other reason than just being friendly. Lobha or metta, and I guess I know the answer to that - only right understanding can really know. > ... > > S: Yes, right understanding.... does one have the stranger's welfare at heart or does one just enjoy one's own pleasant feeling? > > Is one being genuinely kind and concerned for the other, ready to help or does one hope for a smile or friendly response in return? > > Slowly and gradually the characteristics of lobha and metta can be known but not when there's any attachment to oneself and having more metta nor when there is a 'trying to work out the story about metta'! > > During the day, so much ignorance and attachment from the moment we wake up and so few moments of understanding, but gradually it can grow through understanding of dhammas as anatta. > > This morning as I walked through central Hong Kong, a nice-looking Chinese lady smiled at me and I smiled back, appreciating her friendliness. She then tried to pass me a hand-out advertising something and in no time and I was mildly irritated instead, probably still with a fixed smile on my face. Rapidly changing cittas all the time. > Ann: Sarah, your comment above re really having the stranger's welfare at hears or just enjoying one's own pleasant feeling really struck me. Probably both, very often. While it may start as genuine concern for the other, so often that feeling of satisfaction quickly pops in. And of course, when one starts thinking about what it might be or have been, only thinking, As for hoping for the friendly smile in return, yes, that would be loba and wrong understanding. But they are all different moments, could be some metta, then loba and later dose with the irritation about the other person's reaction. Understanding will know when conditions are there for it. Thank you for your comments, Sarah. Ann #132643 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:16 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear Alex >A: :) Good reply, James. What I wanted to add is that suttas obviously don't contain all the details from the life of this or that Arhant. > When we hear the story of how a certain ascetic met the Buddha, heard a short sutta teaching and got instantly awakened, it doesn't mean that it is all we should do. "Just develop [intellectual] understanding and you will be awakened just like him". JK: I think my understanding is not different from yours. Repeat: "Just develop (intellectual) understanding and you will not be awakened just like him". ================== > A: Suttas focus on Buddha's sermons. They don't have space to contain all the minute-by-minute life of some person prior to meeting the Buddha. JK: I believe that you don't accept Jatakas where the Lord Buddha told about the past lives of his and his followers. But at least,the stories tell how much each arahant had been trough in his or her past lives before attaining enlightenment. This is enough evidence for anyone to keep in mind that it is a very long long way on magga. =============== > A: What if that person was an ascetic meditating 20 years for 20 hours a day 7 days a week and thus was "5 minutes till Arhatship"? JK: If you have concrete support on this speculation of "ascetic meditating". Any where ? What I've read in a sutta is sati-patthana can be if a noble person develops sati-patthana continuously for 7 year, 7 months or 7 days. =================== > A: Of course it sounds great to "develop understanding and become an Arhat", but does it work? I wish it did. JK: May I rephrase as "develop understanding with right view is needed at very first milestone of the long long path to arahantship" And samma-dithi which is the first factor of the 8 FP shall clarify your question that does it work? Anumodhanna Jagkrit #132644 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:36 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex, > It is possible that "dust in the eyes" means defilements that can be suppressed with samatha. I often have this thought that the difficulty in understanding the suttas is not like difficulty in understanding calculus or some high level astro-physics book, I think that difficulty is to put the instruction into practice. What would be the main difficulty? As in, what prevents you from putting those instructions into practice? Best wishes pt #132645 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:51 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas ptaus1 Hi Alex, > >I guess my question was a bit different - is what you describe kusala >at all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Intentionally developing a skill to avoid unwholesome thoughts is right effort. It is restraint. Is all restraint kusala? I mean, is it not possible to restrain with greed or with anger? If so, restraining from unwholesome thoughts with greed (so more of unwholesome) doesn't develop more kusala but akusala, so the skill that's being developed is more akusala. Of course, it might be in your case, I don't know. > >what I think is mindfulness is really mindfulness, or just calm >concentration rooted in lobha, for example. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Even if it initially contains moments of lobha, so what? We need to start where we are and you, again, can't expect on to be perfect from the get go. What is important is improvement, however small and not noticeable at first. Well, that's what I mean - if what I think is mindfulness is in fact lobha, then there is no improvement happening at all - it is all akusala. So, I'm still stuck on the very first step - what the hell is mindfulness in the first place? Anyway, apologies, I forgot to address your question regarding emergent property. I don't know of course, my thoughts on the matter are that even if we agree that there is such a thing as emergent property, I wonder whether it makes any difference to wisdom? I mean, wisdom's job is to understand seeing as anatta, for example. Whether seeing sees a person or a shape on 2 legs makes no difference to wisdom I think. I mean, person or 2 legs would not be the domain of wisdom, but seeing would. Understanding the seeing as anatta, anicca, etc. Same with water - it makes no difference to wisdom whether there's touching of water or oxygen. The only thing wisdom would be concerned with is whether the touching, or the hardness, are anatta, etc. It won't care what's being touched. Imo only. Best wishes pt #132646 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Gradual teaching (was, Poor Venerable Aananda!) jonoabb Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > RE: So anyway, that's what it's about, but I can use some help understanding what the terms of the discussion mean, which don't quite add up for me. > =============== J: I haven't gone into the terms of the discussion between the Buddha and Upaali, because that discussion has no bearing on the gradual teaching given by the Buddha. As you'll recall, the gradual teaching began after the discussion had concluded and Upaali had professed himself to be a follower of the Buddha. Here's the link to the sutta again: http://www.vipassana.info/056-upali-e1.htm (Discussions involving followers of other teachings can be difficult to follow because they assume a detailed knowledge of the other teaching and its particular vocabulary and terms of dialogue/debate.) > =============== > RE: As for those of highly developed panna not needing to practice and getting enlightened from a short word from the Buddha, that doesn't surprise me so much, given two important factors: > > 1. The accumulation of panna in former lives. > 2. The BUDDHA being the one giving the short talk. > =============== J: Yes, both factors are important, although the former (previously accumulated panna) is indispensable, whereas the latter (hearing the teachings from the Buddha in person) is not: there are examples in the texts of people becoming enlightened after hearing a short piece of the Dhamma from a person other than the Buddha. > =============== > RE: I don't think anyone can overemphasize the influence of these two highly unusual factors, in the absence of which it may be necessary to do a lot of regular meditation to develop the missing panna. > =============== J: So as you understand the teachings, any "missing panna" can be made up for by "doing a lot of regular meditation"? If only it were that easy! Wishful thinking, I'm afraid! To get back to the point in issue, those such as Upaali who received the gradual teaching became enlightened (a) on the basis of considering and understanding by direct experience, there and then, the meaning of words being spoken by the Buddha, and (b) without there being any suggestion of past attainment of jhana or indeed any particular `practice' of samatha. > =============== > RE: The fact that so many of these highly developed monks at the time of the Buddha spent a large part of their day sitting cross-legged in a quiet place to develop samatha and vipassana says a lot in favor of such "meditation," or whatever one would like to call it. > =============== J: Given that, at the time of the Buddha, there were "highly developed" monks who were able, while sitting cross-legged in a quiet place, to develop samatha and vipassana, the question to then consider is what cause lead to what result. It cannot simply be assumed that this says a lot in favour of seated meditation(!). To my understanding, such monks must have developed both samatha and panna to a high degree in previous lives. As regards the possible significance of their sitting cross-legged in a quiet place, while a quiet place is one of the (many) conditions for the development of samatha *at its higher levels* (i.e., jhana), it is not among the conditions for the development of awareness/insight. Jon #132647 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:00 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > > > JK: Yes, in Uposatha days, some followers stay on 8 precepts of sila but I can not found in any texts showing that they meditated as well in this day as you explained. > > > James: Well, what "texts" are you referring to? > > JK: I means the only suttas you accept from "Tipitaka". > James: I think there are a couple of suttas to laypeople but they aren't available online. And there is one from the Buddha to Sariputta about how laypeople should be able to achieve at least the first two jhana, but I forget if that is available online or not. Sorry, but I am quite lazy to track down sources because I doubt it is worth the effort. > > JK: It is true. Boy ! I' have loved NSA being around at that time. Then we would be assured that what is meditation ? > James: I hope you are joking. I hate the NSA in any time period! People should have an acceptable level of privacy. > > James: We just have to surmise the best we can. Did you read the article I linked to you? > > JK: But your best assumption is quite questionable to me because you deny all ancient commentaries and texts but you accept your reference in "accesstionsight" website. > > And yes, I've read this article which doesn't identify an author. The article jumps to conclusion that there is meditation in Uposatha day while citing the suttas below, any of which don't mention about meditation at all, except 8 eight factors which the Ariyan disciple observes. > > How can this piece of doubtful evidence can be admissible? > James: LOL! I already said that there is no reliable evidence about what laypeople did on Uposatha Days. It isn't in the suttas and it isn't in the commentaries. That is a shame for us because we are laypeople and we have no direct guidance as to how to practice the Buddha's teachings. So, you just have to use your common sense. Can you do that for me? Can you abandon the texts and use your common sense for just a little bit? Okay, here goes: The one thing we know for sure is that on Uposatha Days laypeople went to Buddhist temples and observed the 8 precepts. But, do you really think that is all they did? Do you think that they would take time out of their daily lives just to go to a temple and face restrictions? That would be like checking yourself into prison! No, they took the 8 precepts because for one day and night they wanted to do what monks did. They wanted to listen to Dhamma talks; they wanted to chant Buddhist suttas, and they wanted to meditate- just like the monks did!! That would be the only reason to go to the Buddhist temples on Uposatha Days. > > > James: or you can focus on the breath through out the whole body. It doesn't matter where you focus, as long as you stay within the body. If you can stay within the body then wholesome concentration will naturally arise and jhana will naturally arise. > > JK: I think it is very difficult. Because our mind can not be controllable. It's like a wild monkey jumping around, not only an old oak tree. > James: Of course it is difficult! I never said it was easy. :-) I just summarize the points for the sake of clarity. > JK: I do hope so. And I'm Truly, Truly, Truly believe in the Lord Buddha's teaching. But I'm also believe that his teaching is very deep and subtle. James: While I agree that the Buddha's teaching is very deep, I don't agree that it is "subtle". They Buddha didn't teaching anything in a subtle way- he just said it out in plain language. No mystery and nothing to figure out intellectually first. I'm, therefore, very carefully studying his teaching, not take any word for granted unless it is understandable. > James: You aren't walking through a minefield, Jagkrit! :-) It is just the Buddha's teaching to liberate you from suffering. It is relatively easy to understand but very, very, very difficult to practice!! > > James: no one can explain everything to you before you do it!!! You just have to take a risk and do it. There will be many pitfalls and summits during your meditation. > > JK: This is very familiar explanation from many jhanna lovers I've met. > James: I don't like that label of "jhana lovers"- it sounds pejorative. Anyway, that is way it goes unless you can find a good meditation teacher in today's day and age...a tall order. > > JK: True Blood is OK. But I like "Walking Dead" better !! James: Yuck, I hate "zombie" anything! But these shouldn't be baggages to work through, yes ? > James: No, I didn't mean that like a certain form of entertainment is a "baggage" specifically. The baggages that we all have to work through are the three poisons of the mind: greed, anger, and delusion- and whatever bad karma those three poisons created for us! > I don't want to find out who am I but rather find out what am I :) > James: I already what you are: A TV addict!! :-)))))) just kidding > > Thank you and Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > Metta and Love, James #132648 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:14 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J:I'm not questioning anything that is said in Ptsm. The question you raised in your earlier message was whether mundane jhana must be attained before there can be the development of awareness/insight or the attainment of supramundane path consciousness. The traditional view as set out in the Pali Canon is that jhana is not a prerequisite. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope you are right. >J:Yes, but why focus on anapanasati while sitting in seclusion when that is not part of one's life? What about awareness/insight as we go through the day - does that not interest you? :-)) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wish it was so easy and convenient as "live life like you want, and develop insight *just as well*". I am all for that. With best wishes, Alex #132649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. nilovg Dear Tam Bach, What is the time difference with Bgk? Then I can figure it out with the time in Holland. Nina. Op 21 aug 2013, om 03:46 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven: > I've heard that during the discussion in Saigon, there could be live broadcast via dhammahome English website as well. You can check on that day start at Aug 31, at 16.00 pm local time. #132650 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:15 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, all, > > >That "emergent phenomenon" called "a person" - exactly what in the >world sort of phenomenon IS it? An abstraction? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > Like water, it is a new quality not found in its parts. ------------------------------ HCW: I don't get any info from that. Moreover, water is just a collection of molecules interrelated in that they can slide over each other. ------------------------------ > > > > >(That's just concept.) How does it differ from all those namas and >rupas acting in concert? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A person can control (within limits of course) namas and rupas. -------------------------------- HCW: That "control" is thinking, effort, and willing etc in operation. There is no actor. ------------------------------ > > For example make a choice to look in a certain direction and then do it. You can also eat when hungry, and put on more cloth when cold. ------------------------------- HCW You are presuming a "you" entity as an actual phenomenon. IMO, there is no such thing. -------------------------------- > > > > > >The puggalavadins claimed that "a person" is some "thing" neither the >same as nor different from the underlying phenomena. I don't believe >in any such thing. Why do you? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > You don't believe that people exist? Then I don't know how to continue discussion. ------------------------------- HCW: I already said what people are: Collections of interrelated phenomena, but not any sort of single entities. When they are thought of as single entities - mere convention - they are called "people" or "persons". Any complex of interrelated phenomena, including rupic collections (like tables and chairs) are of the same sort. ------------------------------ > > > > > What is wrong with interrelated phenomena acting in concert? > >>>>>>>> > > A person is a qualitatively higher process than dhammas. -------------------------------- HCW: Show it to me! I can see a sight, smell an odor, feel a bodily sensation, and so on, but I only can CONCEIVE of a person. ------------------------------- > > > > >When looked for, no person-thing is ever found, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > And when you look at a chair through electron microscope you don't find it. It doesn't prevent you from sitting on it. Of course if you refused to see a person, you will not see it. ------------------------------ HCW: The analogy is fine. Chairs are mere collections of interrelated and interacting phenomena conventionally viewed as single things. ------------------------------- > > I would like you to be honest with yourself, no need to answer it here: When you talk to someone, do you perceive the other person or some series of momentary dhammas arising and falling? ------------------------------- HCW: I perceive interrelated sights, sounds, etc, and I CONCEIVE of a "someone". ---------------------------------- > > With metta, > Alex > ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132651 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:21 am Subject: Seeing dies, hearing dies each moment philofillet Dear Group Here is a transcription from the member files: ******************************* Adam: People will die. Ajahn: Seeing dies, hearing dies each moment, so where is people or a person? Where is a person who dies or what is a person who dies? In reality there is no person. A moment of seeing cannot be a person. It arises and falls away. Another moment of hearing is not a person - it arises and falls away. So actually we think there is a permanent person who sees, who hears, but actually seeing is conditioned. Adam: Because we don't see reality. Ajahn: Like looking for dhamma, but no understanding of dhamma. You never meet or see dhamma. But when there is understanding, you cannot escape or go away from dhamma at all because it's not you, it's the arising of dhamma from time to time. So life exists only in a moment of an experience of an object. (End of passage) Phil #132652 From: "azita" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:45 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada gazita2002 Hallo Ann, thanks for the reno encouragement, its been a trip! Last time we spoke I recall that you were going to move house - did that happen? Was feeling disappointed that I can't make T'land and V'nam this time, and then thought that the best way to pay respect to my teacher was to stop thinking about somewhere else and just be here, now. There are dhammas wherever we are so not necessary to go anywhere in particular or do anything special. I am beginning to see how Sanna plays a role in development of wisdom. The more we hear, study, contemplate its seems there are more conditions for intellectual understanding to arise in a day. Sanna remembers what was heard. Having said that, I am looking forward to Jan'14 - there is lots of lobha amongst anything kusala during those get togethers. Don't know if its because I'm aging but life seems very fragile. Cuti citta can arise anytime, in fact anything can happen anytime. With that cheery note:) patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Jon and Azita > > Ann: S. and J. please add my greetings and well wishes to Achan and friends in Bkk and Vietnam. Sounds like a wonderful trip with so many opportunities for discussion in Thailand and VN. > > Azita, I have some appreciation of reno's - hope it all completes soon. > > I / we are expecting to be in Thailand in January for discussions then - looking forward to it. > > Re metta: yup, Azita, you've got it - panna will know. > > Metta, > Ann > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > > > Hallo Sarah, Jon > > > > Safe travels and kindly give my hallos to T.A and all the others in Bkk, and also to the wonderful dhamma group in Vietnam. > > > > one question: is metta as simple as just being friendly.? Some days it seems so easy to smile at a stranger walking by, for no other reason than just being friendly. Lobha or metta, and I guess I know the answer to that - only right understanding can really know. > > > > patience, courage and good cheer, > > azita, stuck-in-cairns-and-still-doing-renos ;( > > > #132653 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:57 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >Alex:Like water, it is a new quality not found in its parts. >------------------------------ >HCW:I don't get any info from that. Moreover, water is just a >collection of molecules interrelated in that they can slide over each >other. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A water molecule is not a collection of smaller water particles. It is a more complex phenomenon made from a chemical bond of more simpler phenomena (hydrogen and oxygen). Lets say a car can drive at 200mph. If we take it into 200 equal parts, we cannot say that each of them can drive at 1mph. Even if you cut a car into two equal parts it will not drive. Nothing to say about 200 parts. A car is a new quality not found in its parts. Same with puggalo. Even if we can, IN THEORY... KEY POINT... In theory take it apart into 5 aggregates, etc, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If person didn't exist, we couldn't analyze him and or take apart. Also, you can't take a person into 5 piles (first rupa, second vedana, third sanna, fourth sankhara, 5th vinnana). As soon as you kill the body, 4 other aggregates are gone. So actually, 5 aggregates are abstract categories. Alive person is not. Of course we should NOT cling to the person, and we should NOT speculate about some sort of metaphysical first principle in it, unless there is good evidence for that... IMHO. With metta, Alex #132654 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:28 am Subject: Re: anattaa. kenhowardau Hi Alex, Sarah, Howard, all, ---- <. . .> >> Alex: In Bhara sutta and others, the Buddha does NOT refute puggala. >> > Sarah: If you look under "Bhara sutta" in 'Useful Posts' you'll be able to read more detail on this point. Sorry, short of time to re-quote now. Someone else may. ------ KH: I'll be glad to re-quote. I have no illusions about convincing Alex, however. In my opinion, Alex's sole objective at DSG is to promote Thanissaro's heterodoxy. But to stay on message: A quick look in the Useful Posts file leads to post #46426 in which Tep is quoted as saying: ----- > There are some among us who say beings or persons don't exist -- they insist that no matter which way you look, you'd never find beings/persons -- just emptiness! Prepare to be surprised, friends! Here I have one sutta that supports "existence" of persons. Read on. <. . .> > "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden." Samyutta Nikaya XXII.22 : Bhara Sutta ------ KH: Then there is a quote from Howard's reply to Tep: ----- >Howard: I'm quite familiar with this sutta. There was a group, an offshoot of the Sarvastivadins I think, a few hundred years after the Buddha who took this a basis for a heretical self-view. I think that the author of the Katthavatthu may have discussed this. The "person" of this sutta is the conventional person, and no one denies such usage. ------- KH: Sarah agrees with Howard and adds: ----------- > S: <. . .> B.Bodhi also gives a long note in his translation here with more detail on the points Howard mentions. At the end, he writes: "The mainstream Buddhist schools held that the person was a mere convention (vohaara) or concept (pa~n~natti) derivative upon (upaadaaya) the five aggregates, not a substantial reality in its own right. For the Theravada response, see the first part of Kvu, a lengthy refutation of the 'personalist' thesis." > Also, he gives this commentary note: > "Spk: Thus, by the expression 'the carrier of the burden,' he shows the person to be a mere convention. For the person is called the carrier of the burden because it 'picks up' the burden of the aggregates at the moment of rebirth, maintains the burden by bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of life, and then discards them at the moment of death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth." -------------- KH: So there we have it! (As if we didn't already know.) Contrary to Thanissaro B's heterodoxy, dutifully brought to us by Tep and Alex, and others before them, anatta does indeed mean THERE IS NO PUGALLA. Ken H #132655 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:09 am Subject: Re: anattaa. truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > ----- >Howard The "person" of this sutta is the conventional person, and no >one denies such usage. > ------- Then what is the problem if conventional person is not denied? As If I said anything else. Conventional person does exist. BTW, I have opinion that venerable TB is conservative, more than particular Theravadin Heterodoxy that developed new ideas not found in the suttas. With best wishes, Alex #132656 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:21 am Subject: Re: Off to Canada glenjohnann Hello Azita Yes, reno's finally completed and we are now fully moved in to new condo. Really enjoying living here - miss the garden at the old house, but have been given responsibility for gardens here (along with being strata co-chair! - more like a sentence than an honour, but small building - only 10 owners - and at this point all get on well together). I understand your feelings re not making Thailand and V'nam this time - however, I find that each time there is a dhamma gathering that I am unable to attend in person, i really hunker down and listen to recordings etc. more - as if I am trying to create my own "dhamma gathering" here! But you are quite right - the best thing is developing understanding of the presently arising dhamma. Best way to pay respect to teacher, teachings and to develop understanding. So much attachment to people and places, when all the time the objects of understanding are arising and falling away, continuously, without break. We in ignorance think there are breaks, but this is not right understanding. I agree regarding sanna. The more one listens, reads etc. the more often thoughts of dhamma arise throughout the day. Only panna knows whether there is right intellectual understanding with those thoughts. Hang in there with the reno's. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > Hallo Ann, > > thanks for the reno encouragement, its been a trip! Last time we spoke I recall that you were going to move house - did that happen? > > Was feeling disappointed that I can't make T'land and V'nam this time, and then thought that the best way to pay respect to my teacher was to stop thinking about somewhere else and just be here, now. > There are dhammas wherever we are so not necessary to go anywhere in particular or do anything special. > I am beginning to see how Sanna plays a role in development of wisdom. The more we hear, study, contemplate its seems there are more conditions for intellectual understanding to arise in a day. Sanna remembers what was heard. > > Having said that, I am looking forward to Jan'14 - there is lots of lobha amongst anything kusala during those get togethers. > > Don't know if its because I'm aging but life seems very fragile. Cuti citta can arise anytime, in fact anything can happen anytime. > > With that cheery note:) patience, courage and good cheer, > azita > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, Jon and Azita > > > > Ann: S. and J. please add my greetings and well wishes to Achan and friends in Bkk and Vietnam. Sounds like a wonderful trip with so many opportunities for discussion in Thailand and VN. > > > > Azita, I have some appreciation of reno's - hope it all completes soon. > > > > I / we are expecting to be in Thailand in January for discussions then - looking forward to it. > > > > Re metta: yup, Azita, you've got it - panna will know. > > > > Metta, > > Ann > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "azita" wrote: > > > > > > Hallo Sarah, Jon > > > > > > Safe travels and kindly give my hallos to T.A and all the others in Bkk, and also to the wonderful dhamma group in Vietnam. > > > > > > one question: is metta as simple as just being friendly.? Some days it seems so easy to smile at a stranger walking by, for no other reason than just being friendly. Lobha or metta, and I guess I know the answer to that - only right understanding can really know. > > > > > > patience, courage and good cheer, > > > azita, stuck-in-cairns-and-still-doing-renos ;( > > > > > > #132657 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:40 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > James: I think there are a couple of suttas to laypeople but they aren't available online. And there is one from the Buddha to Sariputta about how laypeople should be able to achieve at least the first two jhana, but I forget if that is available online or not. Sorry, but I am quite lazy to track down sources because I doubt it is worth the effort. JK: If you have time please have a little check for me. =================== > > JK: It is true. Boy ! I' have loved NSA being around at that time. Then we would be assured that what is meditation ? > James: I hope you are joking. I hate the NSA in any time period! People should have an acceptable level of privacy. JK: Shoo !!!! if we type NSA more than three in a row, this Nuisance Service Agency will activate. ==================. > James: LOL! I already said that there is no reliable evidence about what laypeople did on Uposatha Days. It isn't in the suttas and it isn't in the commentaries. That is a shame for us because we are laypeople and we have no direct guidance as to how to practice the Buddha's teachings. JK: I think Tipitika is still our guidance, isn't it? And for me, I'm open to any studying (commentaries, texts etc) which are helpful to understand the Lord Buddha' teaching > James: So, you just have to use your common sense. JK: That's what scares me !! > James: Can you do that for me? Can you abandon the texts and use your common sense for just a little bit? Okay, JK: Hmm!! Ok. I walk with you. > James: here goes: The one thing we know for sure is that on Uposatha Days laypeople went to Buddhist temples and observed the 8 precepts. But, do you really think that is all they did? JK: I know for sure that Uposatha is about set of precepts the Lord Buddha instructed laypersons about benefit of observing these precepts. This Uposatha, however, has existed long before Buddha time and it is not actually about particular day and place. It is any day and any where when a person want to observe these 8 precepts instead of 5 precepts. The Uposatha nowadays is transformed to be a modern traditional day where Buddhists choose each full moon day to go to the temple and observe 8 precepts. It is, therefore, twisted. > James: Do you think that they would take time out of their daily lives just to go to a temple and face restrictions? That would be like checking yourself into prison! No, they took the 8 precepts because for one day and night they wanted to do what monks did. JK: But I think laypersons in the past didn't want to do what monks did otherwise they should be ordained as monks. It was instead because they understood that with 8 precepts they could lessen some normal craving in daily life. > James: They wanted to listen to Dhamma talks; they wanted to chant Buddhist suttas, and they wanted to meditate- just like the monks did!! That would be the only reason to go to the Buddhist temples on Uposatha Days. JK: Yes, they do that on this modern "Uposatha Days", once every 2 weeks. And this is what I'm scared of using common sense. ==================== > James: While I agree that the Buddha's teaching is very deep, I don't agree that it is "subtle". They Buddha didn't teaching anything in a subtle way- he just said it out in plain language. No mystery and nothing to figure out intellectually first. JK: Maybe I clarify the word "subtle" IMO that to really understand the Lord Buddha's teaching, one must study his teaching thoroughly to get into clear explanation and reason of each significant word. > James: You aren't walking through a minefield, Jagkrit! :-) It is just the Buddha's teaching to liberate you from suffering. It is relatively easy to understand but very, very, very difficult to practice!! JK: Good simile, James. Yes, I'm not walking in a minefield but I'm walking in around in samsara. Unless I'm ensured that I understand the Lord Buddha's teaching rightly, I must be very careful, honest, well-reasoned and straightforward in studying dhamma. Otherwise, I'm lost and no way out. That's much danger than a minefield. ======================= > James: I don't like that label of "jhana lovers"- it sounds pejorative. Anyway, that is way it goes unless you can find a good meditation teacher in today's day and age...a tall order. JK: Sorry, James for using this inappropriate words. Anyway we never find right view meditation teacher. ======================= > > JK: True Blood is OK. But I like "Walking Dead" better !! > > James: Yuck, I hate "zombie" anything! JK: Isn't it Asubha Kammatthana? =================== > James: No, I didn't mean that like a certain form of entertainment is a "baggage" specifically. The baggages that we all have to work through are the three poisons of the mind: greed, anger, and delusion- and whatever bad karma those three poisons created for us! JK: I could not agree more. The 3 enemies insides work out anytime through our ignorance. The point is how well do we know them before we work through these baggages. Otherwise, we cater them more. ==================== > > I don't want to find out who am I but rather find out what am I :) > James: I already what you are: A TV addict!! :-)))))) just kidding JK: Ha Ha Ha !!! But that isn't me. It's lobha clinging every time when TV is on. Now, he's whispering me to go watch "Damages". What should I do? Byes James, see you !! Jagkrit #132658 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:58 pm Subject: Re: Seeing dies, hearing dies each moment jagkrit2012 Dear Phil Thank you very much for this post. Very good reminder for the moment. Anumodhana Jagkrit --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > Dear Group > > Here is a transcription from the member files: > > ******************************* > > Adam: People will die. > > Ajahn: Seeing dies, hearing dies each moment, so where is people or a person? Where > is a person who dies or what is a person who dies? In reality there is no > person. A moment of seeing cannot be a person. It arises and falls away. Another > moment of hearing is not a person - it arises and falls away. > > So actually we think there is a permanent person who sees, who hears, but > actually seeing is conditioned. > > Adam: Because we don't see reality. > > Ajahn: Like looking for dhamma, but no understanding of dhamma. You never meet or > see dhamma. But when there is understanding, you cannot escape or go away from > dhamma at all because it's not you, it's the arising of dhamma from time to > time. > > So life exists only in a moment of an experience of an object. > > (End of passage) > > > Phil > #132659 From: "Ken H" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:11 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. kenhowardau Hi Alex and Howard, ----- >>> Howard: The "person" of this sutta is the conventional person, and no one denies such usage. > A: Then what is the problem if conventional person is not denied? As if I said anything else. Conventional person does exist. ---- KH: The gist of Howard's argument was that no one denied such "usage." He did not say no one denied such "reality." I must admit to having disagreements with Howard, but on this point we are united. Almost the entire DSG active membership is united in maintaining there is no person in the conventional sense of the word. Howard says there is a person in an unconventional sense (of interrelated dhammas) and I strongly disagree, but we do agree in principle that anatta means no self. Therefore we have made a start in our quest to understand the Dhamma. Thanissaro supporters have not made that start. Ken H #132660 From: "sarah" Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, Thanks for joining in the discussions. I'm sorry - I overlooked your note and good qu below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: >S: I was pointing out that regardless of whether we're talking about a > sammaasambuddha or a "simple arahat", adhisiila, adhicitta AND > adhipa~n~naa have been attained. The work is done. All defilements have > been eradicated. There is no more becoming. >C: If this question is too far afar; please ignore... > > Question: Do not most Arahants (Sanskrit: Arahats) have kamma (Sanskrit: karma) to eliminate before "no more becoming?"? .... S: The job is done. There is no more becoming. No new kamma. However, for the remainder of that life, past kamma continues to bring its results. The texts distinguish between: a) The full eradication of defilements (kilesa-parinibbaana or sa-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana) when becoming an arahat b) The final ceasing of khandhas ( khandha-parinibbaana or an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana) at the death of an arahat. Metta Sarah ====== #132661 From: Tam Bach Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. tambach Dear Nina N: What is the time difference with Bgk? Then I can figure it out with the time in Holland. Nina. --------------------- It is the same, Nina N:  I've heard that during the discussion in Saigon, there could be live broadcast via dhammahome English website as well. You can check on that day start at Aug 31, at 16.00 pm local time. ------------------------ Yes, we will try to organize that, hope it will work. The starting time will change to 3.30pm BKK time though (everyday). Btw, glad to read your posts here, Nina Metta, Tam #132662 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the khandhas are realities. nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 19 aug 2013, om 02:34 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > > Also, according to the Pali SN 22.95 (PTS SN iii, pp. 140-143), it reports the Buddha as teaching that the five aggregates (khandhas) are seen as void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), and lacking essence (asaaraka) (see > > > The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 54; and Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, p. 951). > > > The Pali term for void/without reality is rittaka. It is just without reality/void. The term should be understood together with the next two terms, tucchaka (insubstantial) and asaaraka (lacking essence) (See also PTS, Pali-English Dictionary, p. 571). > ------- N: Thank you, Thomas, for giving these Pali terms, I had not met them before. I was actually thinking of su~n~nattaa. Sarah just gave a useful quote in another post: "Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world... In what way, Venerable Sir, is it, that this world is Empty? It is, Ananda, because it is empty of a self and of what belongs to a self, that it is said, the world is empty... And what is it, which is empty of any self and of what belongs to a self? The eye, all forms, visual consciousness, eye-contact and all the feelings arised caused by eye-contact, are empty of any self, and empty of what belongs to a self... The ear, all sounds, auditory consciousness, ear-contact, and all feelings arised caused by ear-contact, are empty of any self, and empty of what belongs to a self... The nose, all smells, olfactory consciousness, nose-contact, feeling arised from smelled contact, the tongue, all flavours, all gustatory consciousness, tongue-contact, all feeling arised by tasting, the body, all forms of touch, all tactile consciousness, body-contact, all feelings arised caused by body contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to any self... The mind is empty of any self. All thoughts & ideas are empty of any self. Mental consciousness is empty of any self. Mental-contact is empty of self. Whatever feeling arised caused by any mental-contact, that too is empty of any self, and of what belongs to any self... It is, Ananda, because all this is empty of any self & of what belongs to any even assumed made-up concept of self, that it is said: Empty is this world..."< >"Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54] Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85."> ------- Can you help me tracing the Pali in this sutta: is it su~n~nattaa? Nina. #132663 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:09 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, all, > > > >Alex:Like water, it is a new quality not found in its parts. > >------------------------------ > >HCW:I don't get any info from that. Moreover, water is just a >collection of molecules interrelated in that they can slide over each >other. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A water molecule is not a collection of smaller water particles. It is a more complex phenomenon made from a chemical bond of more simpler phenomena (hydrogen and oxygen). ----------------------------- HCW: No, it's not. A water molecule is just that, a molecule. More than one is needed for it to be water. -------------------------------- > > Lets say a car can drive at 200mph. If we take it into 200 equal parts, we cannot say that each of them can drive at 1mph. Even if you cut a car into two equal parts it will not drive. Nothing to say about 200 parts. A car is a new quality not found in its parts. -------------------------------- HCW: A car is a collection of interrelated parts acting in concert. It is just a sort of collection, not an individual phenomenon. ------------------------------ > > Same with puggalo. ------------------------------ HCW: Yes, same thing. ------------------------- Even if we can, IN THEORY... KEY POINT... In theory take it apart into 5 aggregates, etc, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If person didn't exist, we couldn't analyze him and or take apart. Also, you can't take a person into 5 piles (first rupa, second vedana, third sanna, fourth sankhara, 5th vinnana). As soon as you kill the body, 4 other aggregates are gone. ------------------------- HCW: You seem to ignore relations! -------------------------- > > So actually, 5 aggregates are abstract categories. Alive person is not. ---------------------------- HCW: You seem to ignore relations! ---------------------------- > > Of course we should NOT cling to the person, and we should NOT speculate about some sort of metaphysical first principle in it, unless there is good evidence for that... > > IMHO. > > With metta, > > Alex > ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. I go even further: Even namas and rupas are changing temporal complexes. To speak of them as individual, unitary phenomena is mere convention, and to BELIEVE thay are such is error. /Monks, these three are conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, change while remaining is discernible. These are three conditioned characteristics of what is conditioned./ (From the Sankhata Sutta) #132664 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:05 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >HCW: No, it's not. A water molecule is just that, a molecule. More >than one is needed for it to be water. >-------------------------------- But the water molecule is qualitatively different than two atoms of Hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. Water is a qualitatively different than merely many hydrogen and oxygen atoms. > -------------------------------- > HCW: A car is a collection of interrelated parts acting in concert. It is just a sort of collection, not an individual phenomenon. > ------------------------------ It depends what you mean by "individual phenomenon". Car exists and it has a quality not found in its parts from which it is made. > > > > Same with puggalo. > ------------------------------ > HCW: Yes, same thing. > ------------------------- > Even if we can, IN THEORY... KEY POINT... In theory take it apart into 5 aggregates, etc, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If person didn't exist, we couldn't analyze him and or take apart. Also, you can't take a person into 5 piles (first rupa, second vedana, third sanna, fourth sankhara, 5th vinnana). As soon as you kill the body, 4 other aggregates are gone. > ------------------------- > HCW: You seem to ignore relations! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean? Of course simpler phenomena can combine into a qualitatively new thing. With best wishes, Alex #132665 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:04 pm Subject: Re: the khandhas are realities. thomaslaw03 Dear Nina, > Dear Thomas, Op 19 aug 2013, om 02:34 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > Also, according to the Pali SN 22.95 (PTS SN iii, pp. 140-143), it reports the Buddha as teaching that the five aggregates (khandhas) are seen as void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), and lacking essence (asaaraka) (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 54; and Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, p. 951). > > > The Pali term for void/without reality is rittaka. It is just without reality/void. The term should be understood together with the next two terms, tucchaka (insubstantial) and asaaraka (lacking essence) (See also PTS, Pali-English Dictionary, p. 571). > ------- Nina: Thank you, Thomas, for giving these Pali terms, I had not met them before. I was actually thinking of su~n~nattaa. Sarah just gave a useful quote in another post: "Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world. …. >"Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54]Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85."> ------- Nina: Can you help me tracing the Pali in this sutta: is it su~n~nattaa? Thomas: The text (SN 35.85) indicates one of the meanings for the term su~n~nattaa, i.e., not-self, empty of self. (See The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 93-4). Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is: "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality), just vain (insubstantial), just empty (lacking essence)." (See The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 92 and 54). Note: No any suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as `realities'. But there are suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres as anicca, as dukkha, as anatta (= not-self, empty of self), as su~n~naka/su~n~nattaa (= as rittaka, tucchaka, asaaraka). (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 92 and 54). Thomas #132666 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:57 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > Dear James > > > JK: If you have time please have a little check for me. > James: I really don't have time. I started school this week so my summer vacation is now over...wah, wah... :-(((. And I am going to be teaching grades 7-12 Computer Technology (6 different preps), Student Council, English Reading and Speech, and English Drama! I get dizzy just thinking about the different classes! So, no, I don't really have time to search for suttas; and I don't think it would be worthwhile anyway. No matter what sutta I found you would deny it's central meaning. What's the point?? > > JK: Shoo !!!! if we type NSA more than three in a row, this Nuisance Service Agency will activate. > James: Hehehe...you must like Harry Potter also! Well, I'm afraid that the Agency-that-shall-not-be-named is already pretty insidious. They are collecting everything from everyone at all times (but thankfully they are too stupid to know what to do with it! :-) > > > James: So, you just have to use your common sense. > > JK: That's what scares me !! > James: You should never be afraid of your own common sense! Okay, I will provide one sutta link, but you're twisting my arm here! :-): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta > > James: Can you do that for me? Can you abandon the texts and use your common sense for just a little bit? Okay, > > JK: Hmm!! Ok. I walk with you. > > > James: here goes: The one thing we know for sure is that on Uposatha Days laypeople went to Buddhist temples and observed the 8 precepts. But, do you really think that is all they did? > > JK: I know for sure that Uposatha is about set of precepts the Lord Buddha instructed laypersons about benefit of observing these precepts. This Uposatha, however, has existed long before Buddha time and it is not actually about particular day and place. It is any day and any where when a person want to observe these 8 precepts instead of 5 precepts. > James: This is absolutely not what I understand about Uposatha Days. It was in existence long before the Buddha, not at any location or any day, and anytime anyone wanted to observe the 8 precepts? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Sorry. How could you even prove such an outrageous notion? > The Uposatha nowadays is transformed to be a modern traditional day where Buddhists choose each full moon day to go to the temple and observe 8 precepts. It is, therefore, twisted. > James: I think the only thing twisted is your mind. You need to provide concrete proof for this or it is really wacko. > JK: But I think laypersons in the past didn't want to do what monks did otherwise they should be ordained as monks. James: Excuse me? Even in Thailand, your home country, they have "temporary ordination" for all males. Why do you think they do that? Because they see the benefit of living the monastic life but they know it isn't feasible for everyone full-time. So they have temporary ordination. Uposatha Days are the exact same thing but on an even smaller scale...one day instead of several weeks. Jagkrit, you shouldn't discredit laypeople's striving for spiritual truth and fulfillment! It was instead because they understood that with 8 precepts they could lessen some normal craving in daily life. > James: Crazy talk...makes no sense. > JK: Maybe I clarify the word "subtle" IMO that to really understand the Lord Buddha's teaching, one must study his teaching thoroughly to get into clear explanation and reason of each significant word. > James: Okay, then go ahead and do that- but with no commentaries! Did the Buddha ever say that you should depend on others to explain his Dhamma to you? NO! He specifically said you should depend on yourself! > JK: Good simile, James. Yes, I'm not walking in a minefield but I'm walking in around in samsara. Unless I'm ensured that I understand the Lord Buddha's teaching rightly, I must be very careful, honest, well-reasoned and straightforward in studying dhamma. Otherwise, I'm lost and no way out. That's much danger than a minefield. > James: I really don't understand what you are so terrified about! You know, it is okay to make mistakes along the way, and it won't be a "NO WAY OUT" situation. Even the Buddha made mistakes when he began a spiritual path, and he found a way out. If you are afraid to make mistakes you won't get anywhere. > ======================= > > > James: I don't like that label of "jhana lovers"- it sounds pejorative. Anyway, that is way it goes unless you can find a good meditation teacher in today's day and age...a tall order. > > JK: Sorry, James for using this inappropriate words. James: That's okay. I know you didn't mean any harm. Anyway we never find right view meditation teacher. > James: Maybe not, so we have to depend on ourselves. You know, as a teacher my goal is to make my students "Life-long, independent learners". I don't want them to stop learning just because they leave school. I don't want them to not know what to do unless someone is there to hold their hands through everything. I want them to have the tools to keep learning day after day. I think the Buddha was the same way (but I am not like the Buddha!! :-)). He wanted us to learn over a lifetime and to be able to learn independently. That is what teachers want for their students. > ======================= > > > > JK: True Blood is OK. But I like "Walking Dead" better !! > > > > James: Yuck, I hate "zombie" anything! > > JK: Isn't it Asubha Kammatthana? > James: No clue what that means. Maybe "Mindfulness of Death"? Well, imagining dead people walking around and eating others isn't exactly a true mindfulness of death situation. :-) > JK: Ha Ha Ha !!! But that isn't me. It's lobha clinging every time when TV is on. Now, he's whispering me to go watch "Damages". What should I do? > James: I don't know...you have to decide that for yourself. Personally, I hate lawyers also! LOL! > Byes James, see you !! > > Jagkrit > Adios Amigo, James #132667 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > James: I really don't have time. I started school this week so my summer vacation is now over...wah, wah... :-(((. And I am going to be teaching grades 7-12 Computer Technology (6 different preps), Student Council, English Reading and Speech, and English Drama! I get dizzy just thinking about the different classes! So, no, I don't really have time to search for suttas; and I don't think it would be worthwhile anyway. No matter what sutta I found you would deny it's central meaning. What's the point?? JK: Wow! You have quite a lot of work. That's OK. However, you misunderstand me about deny the meaning. I'd rather prefer to find the thorough meaning. ======================= > James: You should never be afraid of your own common sense! Okay, I will provide one sutta link, but you're twisting my arm here! :-): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta JK: I never twist your arm. I'm reasonable man :) As part of your link, it says: "The Kalama Sutta is used for advocating prudence by the use of sound logical reasoning arguments and the dialectic principles for inquiries in the practice that relates to the discipline of seeking truth, wisdom and knowledge whether it is religious or not. In short, the Kalama Sutta is opposed to blind faith, dogmatism and belief spawned from specious reasoning." As I understand, this sutta urges us using by all means of reasonable consideration before believing. There is nowhere mentioning about common sense. ================== > > JK: I know for sure that Uposatha is about set of precepts the Lord Buddha instructed laypersons about benefit of observing these precepts. This Uposatha, however, has existed long before Buddha time and it is not actually about particular day and place. It is any day and any where when a person want to observe these 8 precepts instead of 5 precepts. > James: This is absolutely not what I understand about Uposatha Days. It was in existence long before the Buddha, not at any location or any day, and anytime anyone wanted to observe the 8 precepts? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Sorry. How could you even prove such an outrageous notion? JK: If I say this comes from many suttas in Tipitika, you will shun me down because you want to use common sense. But my common sense on this Uposatha Days is from the right understanding what Uposatha is ? > > The Uposatha nowadays is transformed to be a modern traditional day where Buddhists choose each full moon day to go to the temple and observe 8 precepts. It is, therefore, twisted. > James: I think the only thing twisted is your mind. You need to provide concrete proof for this or it is really wacko. JK: It is true (not twisted of mind). In many suttas describe that Uposatha is mainly about 8 precepts, leave out about day. Sometimes, a layperson observes Uposatha sila for 3 months instead of one day. Only one sutta mentions that Sakka teva set particular day as Uposatha day for his followers to observe. I'm not sure that when exactly recent Buddhists selected full moon day to be Uposatha day. > > JK: But I think laypersons in the past didn't want to do what monks did otherwise they should be ordained as monks. > > James: Excuse me? Even in Thailand, your home country, they have "temporary ordination" for all males. Why do you think they do that? Because they see the benefit of living the monastic life but they know it isn't feasible for everyone full-time. So they have temporary ordination. JK: This "temporary ordination" is very modern tradition not very long ago. It is totally different from ordination in the past. Mostly temporary ordination is like ritual for a man at his 25 year of age, expecting to pay gratitude to his parents. It is not certainly about seeing the benefit of living as monks. Very few people ordain with strong determination of monk-hood for short time. In the past, people entered into monk-hood for live with firm determination to eradicate kilesas. No temporary ordination !! And laypeople at that time knew very well that they didn't have habit of giving up their ordinary life but they knew that they could observe 5 or 8 precepts as the way of Buddhist laypeople did while spending their normal lives. > James: Uposatha Days are the exact same thing but on an even smaller scale...one day instead of several weeks. JK: IMHO, it was totally different point of view. > James: Jagkrit, you shouldn't discredit laypeople's striving for spiritual truth and fulfillment! JK: Not at all, James. I know for sure that they had right understanding the way of developing wisdom to eradicate kilesas. > JK: It was instead because they understood that with 8 precepts they could lessen some normal craving in daily life. > > James: Crazy talk...makes no sense. JK: Think carefully James, you find it really makes sense between seeing the benefit of observing 8 precepts or just wanting to do like a monk does. > > JK: Maybe I clarify the word "subtle" IMO that to really understand the Lord Buddha's teaching, one must study his teaching thoroughly to get into clear explanation and reason of each significant word. > > > James: Okay, then go ahead and do that- but with no commentaries! Did the Buddha ever say that you should depend on others to explain his Dhamma to you? JK: The Lord Buddha didn't say but he sent his followers to educate people around regions. > James: NO! He specifically said you should depend on yourself! JK: Yes, depend on ourselves to learn and study until finding out the truth. Not just depending on our own thinking. > > JK: Good simile, James. Yes, I'm not walking in a minefield but I'm walking in around in samsara. Unless I'm ensured that I understand the Lord Buddha's teaching rightly, I must be very careful, honest, well-reasoned and straightforward in studying dhamma. Otherwise, I'm lost and no way out. That's much danger than a minefield. > > > James: I really don't understand what you are so terrified about! You know, it is okay to make mistakes along the way, and it won't be a "NO WAY OUT" situation. Even the Buddha made mistakes when he began a spiritual path, and he found a way out. If you are afraid to make mistakes you won't get anywhere. JK: That's a mistake. :) > Anyway we never find right view meditation teacher. > > > James: Maybe not, so we have to depend on ourselves. You know, as a teacher my goal is to make my students "Life-long, independent learners". I don't want them to stop learning just because they leave school. I don't want them to not know what to do unless someone is there to hold their hands through everything. I want them to have the tools to keep learning day after day. JK: You are very considerate teacher. >James: I think the Buddha was the same way (but I am not like the Buddha!! :-)). He wanted us to learn over a lifetime and to be able to learn independently. That is what teachers want for their students. JK: I think so. The Lord Buddha could only show us the way but it depends upon each of us whether we get up and walk on the right way and right direction. ======================= > > > > > > JK: True Blood is OK. But I like "Walking Dead" better !! > > > > > > James: Yuck, I hate "zombie" anything! > > > > JK: Isn't it Asubha Kammatthana? > > > James: No clue what that means. Maybe "Mindfulness of Death"? Well, imagining dead people walking around and eating others isn't exactly a true mindfulness of death situation. :-) JK: Asubha Kammatthana is mindfulness of loathsomeness. Our body is nothing different form them when we're dead except we won't walk. So why cling? ================ > > JK: Ha Ha Ha !!! But that isn't me. It's lobha clinging every time when TV is on. Now, he's whispering me to go watch "Damages". What should I do? > > > James: I don't know...you have to decide that for yourself. JK: That's about right. But the different is it is wholesome or unwholesome making decision according to accumulation. No "I" to decide. >James: Personally, I hate lawyers also! LOL! JK: I'm kind of like them because they rarely use common sense. :) Anumodhana Jagkrit #132668 From: Tam Bach Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. tambach Dear Nina N: What is the time difference with Bgk? Then I can figure it out with the time in Holland. Nina. --------------------- It is the same, Nina N:  I've heard that during the discussion in Saigon, there could be live broadcast via dhammahome English website as well. You can check on that day start at Aug 31, at 16.00 pm local time. ------------------------ Yes, we will try to organize that, hope it will work. The starting time will change to 3.30pm BKK time though (everyday). Btw, glad to read your posts here, Nina Metta, Tam #132669 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:20 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, all, > > >HCW: No, it's not. A water molecule is just that, a molecule. More >than one is needed for it to be water. > >-------------------------------- > > But the water molecule is qualitatively different than two atoms of Hydrogen and one atom of oxygen. ------------------------------- HCW: It is 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen *related by chemical bonding and acting in concert*. There is nothing more than that involved. Of course,IMO, chemistry is merely a body of predictively useful stories about what we *ultimately* know nothing at all. -------------------------------- > > > Water is a qualitatively different than merely many hydrogen and oxygen atoms. > > > > > -------------------------------- > > HCW: A car is a collection of interrelated parts acting in concert. It is just a sort of collection, not an individual phenomenon. > > ------------------------------ > > > It depends what you mean by "individual phenomenon". Car exists and it has a quality not found in its parts from which it is made. ------------------------------- HCW: You are merely stating (again) your opinion. Doing so doesn't make it so. ;-) ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Same with puggalo. > > ------------------------------ > > HCW: Yes, same thing. > > ------------------------- > > Even if we can, IN THEORY... KEY POINT... In theory take it apart into 5 aggregates, etc, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If person didn't exist, we couldn't analyze him and or take apart. Also, you can't take a person into 5 piles (first rupa, second vedana, third sanna, fourth sankhara, 5th vinnana). As soon as you kill the body, 4 other aggregates are gone. > > ------------------------- > > HCW: You seem to ignore relations! > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > What do you mean? Of course simpler phenomena can combine into a qualitatively new thing. ------------------------------- HCW: Again, you assume "things," both old and new. What IS(!!!) this "new thing"??? Reification is a central curse of our existence! ----------------------------- > > > With best wishes, > > Alex > =============================== With metta, Howard /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #132670 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:46 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >HCW: It is 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen *related by chemical >bonding and acting in concert*. There is nothing more than that >involved. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are correct about chemical bonding. But these details beside the point I was making. The point is that there can be a qualitatively new thing made from combination and bonding of simpler things. Even though water is made from chemical bonding of hydrogen and oxygen , it is a new phenomenon rather than being merely a collection of oxygen and hydrogen atoms. >-------------------------------- >HCW: A car is a collection of interrelated parts acting in concert. >It is just a sort of collection, not an individual phenomenon. >------------------------------ Either you ar not understanding what I am saying (I am a bad communicator) or you are using sophisms. A car is a qualitatively new thing that is emergent from its parts acting in concert. None of the parts of the car is "a car". But put and arranged together in a certain ways, makes a car that can do what each indivial part cannot. A car or water cannot be reduced to its constituent parts. Water is not made of little waters, and neither is the car. Reification is not cause of our existence, tanha and avijja is according to orthodox texts. And avijja here means not knowing/ignoring/denying 4 Noble Truths. With best wishes, Alex #132671 From: "jono.abbott" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:25 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jono.abbott Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon - > > > J: Regarding your point that "[meditation] was passed down from the time of the Buddha to the present day by the Buddha and his disciples from generation to generation", you seem to be proposing a line of authority that is oral and not recorded in the Pali Canon. > > RE: Uh...no, I'm taking a look around the world at the unbroken tradition of meditation that exists. ... > I don't need an oral record. Today's Buddhists and their unbroken tradition of practice are living proof. > =============== J: As I see it, if we are talking about an unbroken tradition of practice then, unless it's something mentioned in the suttas or explained in the commentaries, it can only be something that has been handed down orally from teacher to pupil. If it can't be supported by the suttas or the commentaries, it can't be regarded as in accordance with the teachings/the Dhamma. The mere fact that people nowadays are sitting (as part of a practice), and that monks who lived at the time of the Buddha also spent time seated (when in seclusion, further developing their already well-developed samatha), does not constitute a true tradition. > =============== > RE: If you do a tour of Buddhist monasteries around the world, you'll find Buddhist meditation being taught everywhere. Many of them practice samatha meditation and aspire to jhana. I guess they're all deluded and desperate and you're not. > =============== J: Without knowing the understanding of those practising meditation today, there's no knowing to what extent that understanding, and the resulting practice, is in accordance with the understanding and practice of the monks mentioned in the Pali Canon. As ever, it's the teaching given by the Buddha that's important, not how that teaching is interpreted by people at the present time. > =============== > RE: I think the theory that by waiting for dhammas to accumulate all by themselves without any practice one will attain enlightenment aeons from now is a lot more speculative than what we can actually see, hear, read about and practice now. > =============== J: If we're talking about the path that was taught by the Buddha, then the place to be looking is (a) the suttas that record the words spoken by the Buddha in expounding his teaching, and (b) the commentaries to those suttas, beginning from the time of the Buddha when his teaching was well understood and there were many enlightened followers also teaching. > =============== > > > RE: The main question here is whether meditation was practiced by the Buddha and his monks and disciples in order to develop samatha and satipatthana as a purposeful practice, and whether this is a legitimate Buddhist practice that is still being taught today in an unbroken tradition started by the Buddha; whether or not there are other ways of developing the path -- dry insight; everyday awareness of dhammas, etc. > > > J: And for that we need to look at what the Buddha actually said on the matter. > > RE: And did. And taught. The Buddha speaks about such practice in many suttas, teaches how to use such practice correctly to develop samatha and sati, and extols such practice. So of course he did teach and talk about it, as well as practice it himself. A glance at the anapanasati sutta or satipatthana sutta will prove this. > =============== J: As I've pointed out recently, the fact that the Buddha extolled the development of samatha does not necessarily mean that he taught that its development to a particular level was a prerequisite for the development of the path. As far as the Satipatthana Sutta is concerned, the only mention of samatha/jhana is in the description of samma-samadhi as a factor of the NEP. For reasons already mentioned, this cannot be taken as prescribing mundane jhana as a prerequisite for the development of awareness/insight. The recurrent theme of the Satipatthana Sutta is what is being *understood* or *known with understanding* by the various persons there mentioned, rather than the situations or settings there described or the doing of any activity forming part of those situations or settings. > =============== > RE: Development of requisite samatha and satipatthana are among the necessary attainments. If you want to talk about other necessary conditions, I'll be happy to discuss them. I'll leave it to you to bring them up. > > I certainly agree that hearing the Dhamma properly explained is one of them, but what "properly explained" means would clearly require an extensive discussion. :-) > =============== J: By "properly explained" I meant simply (a) explained correctly and (b) explained appropriately given the listener's accumulated understanding and/or wrong view. It should not surprise us that the language of the suttas -- which were mostly delivered to listeners who, because of understanding accumulated in previous lifetimes, were on the verge of enlightenment -- should be well and truly over our heads unless elaborated upon by someone who has good understanding of the teachings. Jon #132672 From: "jono.abbott" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:32 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. jono.abbott Hi Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > > >J:I'm not questioning anything that is said in Ptsm. The question you raised in your earlier message was whether mundane jhana must be attained before there can be the development of awareness/insight or the attainment of supramundane path consciousness. The traditional view as set out in the Pali Canon is that jhana is not a prerequisite. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > A: I hope you are right. > =============== J: It's not me that would be right, it's the ancient commentators :-)) > =============== > >J:Yes, but why focus on anapanasati while sitting in seclusion when that is not part of one's life? What about awareness/insight as we go through the day - does that not interest you? :-)) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: I wish it was so easy and convenient as "live life like you want, and develop insight *just as well*". I am all for that. > =============== J: It's not a question of ease or convenience. The only question is, What exactly was the teaching of the Buddha? Did he teach that the development of awareness required the doing of specific activities, or did he teach the development of understanding of dhammas in whatever posture or situation one is at any time? Did he teach that samatha had to be developed first, or did he teach that right concentration arises whenever there is right view? Did he teach the selection of specific dhammas as object, or did he teach the development of awareness of any dhamma that is presently appearing? Jon #132673 From: "jono.abbott" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:38 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jono.abbott Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > > J: There are of course instances in the texts of descriptions of monks who were (a) seated and (b) concentrated, and who were praised by the Buddha for their attainments. > > RE: Well that is the dispute, which to most observers would seem rather ridiculous. When you have the Buddha not only describing such activity but also saying, for instance, in the Anapanasati sutta, that if one were to practice in this way for 7 years, months, weeks or even days, they would develop all the enlightenment factors and reach enlightenment, it is perfectly clear that he is not only reporting on such attainments but promoting such practice and describing it for the purpose of teaching others how to do it for that purpose. > =============== J: OK, let's have a look at what the Buddha actually said. Here is the start of the closing passage from the Satipatthana Sutta (known as the "assurance"): "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment)." The passage talks about *maintaining the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner*. Now the Four Arousings of Mindfulness are described in the opening part of the sutta as follows: "Here, bhikkhus, 1/. a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; 2/. he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; 3/. he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; 4/. he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief." So the Four Arousings are "living contemplating the body, feelings, consciousness and mental objects" (in effect, all dhammas). Note that it is not just contemplating that is mentioned but *living* contemplating. This suggests not a practice but a developed (inculcated) habit. The *manner in which the Four Arousings are maintained* is described in the text of the sutta beginning with the section on mindfulness of breathing and ending with the section on the 4 Noble Truths. This part constitutes the bulk of the sutta in volume. And as I have pointed out recently in another message, these sections are mostly worded in terms of "understanding", or "knowing with understanding", certain things. So the assurance given by the Buddha was an assurance in relation to maintaining a certain developed understanding, rather than maintaining any `practice' or `activity'. > =============== > RE: In addition there is indeed an unbroken tradition in Buddhism in Buddhist communities of all national and cultural types of sitting meditation as described by the Buddha in the anapanasati sutta, and many of the practices of the satipatthana sutta are practiced as well. Certainly the Buddhist community throughout the centuries has taken these suttas as descriptions of how one should practice in order to attain Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness, as samatha/jhana and satipatthana. > > Would you agree, whether you think it is correctly founded or not, that such a tradition does exist, and that is the way that Buddhists have traditionally understood the Buddha's teachings in this area? > =============== J: If you're interested in the tradition among Buddhists, you need look no further than the commentaries. These spell out how the teachings have been understood from the time of the Buddha himself down to the time of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or later (a period of more than a thousand years). > =============== > RE: When suttas start with the meditator finding a quiet place at the root of a tree, sitting cross-legged and then following a series of concentration exercises, the intent is rather clear. > =============== J: The Satipatthana Sutta does not begin in this manner. And I doubt there's any sutta that does! It might be time you re-read some of the suttas you're fond of relying on, to check whether your recollection of them is accurate :-)). Jon #132674 From: "jono.abbott" Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:41 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jono.abbott Hi Rob E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" wrote: > > Hi Jon. > ... > =============== > RE: If you think that the entire tradition of Buddhism is wrong, that is your privilege, but you can't deny that this is the tradition, a very large part of it, and that the Buddha's talks on the subject often describe a monk who is practicing these procedures in sitting meditation. That is how it's been taken by Buddhists thorughout the ages, because it makes sense to do so. The Visudhimagga takes this up as well, and Buddhaghosa clearly takes the suttas in like manner and goes into more detail about these procedures. > =============== J: No, I do not think the tradition of Buddhism (by which I mean the commentaries and Pali Canon as a whole, including the Visuddhimagga) is wrong. In fact, I think it is the only source we have of what is right! As regards the current-day popular consensus, however, that cannot be regarded as part of the tradition of Buddhism (except in a superficial sense). > =============== > > J: You mention the Satipatthana Sutta and also "making up false issues to prove a philosophical predisposition is correct, even though it goes against the plain meaning of the text". I'd be interested to know what you see as being the plain meaning of the following passages from that sutta: > > RE: The Satipatthana sutta begins and is rooted in anapanasati. It then moves on to other meditation objects. > =============== J: No, the Satipatthana Sutta does not begin with anapanasati. You are perhaps thinking of the section on mindfulness of the body, which begins with the person who has already developed anapanasati. But in any event, that is only 1 of 14 parts to the section on mindfulness of the body. Also, the sutta does not talk about "meditation objects", nor about the Pali kammatthaana. The commentary does talk about kammatthaana, but it also makes clear that what is being referred to in the sutta here is mindfulness of namas and rupas. > =============== > RE: The tradition holds that anapanasati in sitting meditation posture is the most usual way of developing the concentration and mindfulness to then attend the objects given in the practice of satipatthana, being the four foundations. In addition such concentration and mindfulness are also applied to a number of other objects for specific purposes, such as the corpse contemplations, which give the practitioner a clear understanding of the temporary nature of the body, etc. In other words they are contemplations that lead to sati sampajanna or other expressions of mindfulness or concentration, using various important objects that have been selected by the Buddha for those purposes. > =============== J: What you say here may reflect a popular current-day view, but it does not reflect the Buddhist tradition. > =============== > RE: For additional exercises, like going to an actual cemetary and watching the decomposition of a corpse, one would obviously have to go sit in a cemetary. I don't see the problem. They are all meditations based on developing sati, samatha and/or understanding of various special objects chosen by the Buddha for their value in developing understanding and awareness. > =============== J: Regarding, "exercises, like going to an actual cemetery and watching the decomposition of a corpse, one would obviously have to go sit in a cemetery", that is not what the Satipatthana Sutta is talking about, imo. Here's the first section dealing with seeing a corpse: "And further, O bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body dead, one, two, or three days: swollen, blue and festering, thrown into the charnel ground, he thinks of his own body thus: 'This body of mine too is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.' "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body." Note the words "if a bhikkhu, in whatever way, sees a body ... he thinks of his own body thus". This describes the mode of reflection of a person of developed understanding who sees (i.e., who happens to see) a corpse. There is no sense of deliberately going to a cemetery in order to view a corpse being prescribed here; nor of, having seen a corpse, trying to think about it in a certain way. Why not give the words of the sutta their plain meaning ? :-)) > =============== > > J: For example, all except the first passage refer to the bhikkhu who "understands" or "knows with understanding". This is not something that can be `done' by following a `practice', surely. > > RE: It is the result of practice, which then qualifies one for further practice. > =============== J: Well that may be your interpretation, but it's not something that's mentioned in the sutta nor in the commentaries. What is mentioned is simply that a person of a particular description "understands" or "knows with understanding" certain things. I think we should stick to the plain meaning of the sutta and not infer things just to suit a point of view :-)) > =============== > > J: The passages from the Satipatthana Sutta that I've quoted above make perfect sense as they stand without imputing any "breathing practice" context. > > RE: The tradition takes it that way, but it doesn't matter. They are all meditation objects prescribed by the Buddha who teaches how to regard them to develop samatha and/or sati. The fact that the sutta starts with anapanasati, however, is not a coincidence. I wonder what your theory is for why the Buddha starts with sitting cross-legged following the breath? It suggests that this is the seminal practice that focuses the mind, does it not? > =============== J: I don't have any particular ideas as to why the section on mindfulness of the body begins with anapanasati. But I think the notion of anapanasati being the "seminal practice that focuses the mind" is not the point; the focus of the 14 parts of this section is the development of understanding (not, concentrating the mind on a chosen object/on chosen objects). Jon #132675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:42 pm Subject: Saturday, English discussion, live. part 1. nilovg Dear Jagkrit and friends, (the picture of you all was very hazy, but still visible object is seen.) Saturday, English discussion, live. part 1. The Buddha’s teachings are about everything that appears now. Is it you who sees? Seeing is seeing, it is dhamma. This truth can be directly experienced, not by me, but by understanding. Is it possible to experience the arising and falling away of seeing? Now now. Understanding has to begin by pariyatti (intellectual understanding), then pa.tipatti (development of satipa.t.thaana) and pativedha (realisation of the truth). What is real is dhamma. We need the word abhidhamma, abhi, because it is very subtle. One knows that seeing is not hearing. At the moment of seeing there is no hearing. It is not enough to know that seeing is not permanent. Seeing cannot be taken for self, it is conditioned to arise and fall away, before hearing can arise. Dhamma is abhidhamma, because it is very deep and subtle. Apart from abhidhamma there is the word paramattha dhamma. No one can condition the arising of seeing, it is beyond anyone’s control. Are you now studying abhidhamma, paramattha dhamma, or just dhamma. They are the same. Whatever is real is dhamma, but sure, it is subtle: abhidhamma. It takes time to study and really understand. Nobody can change the characteristic of seeing into thinking, it is paramattha dhamma. What dhammas are there now? Answer: cold, hardness, feeling. T.A.: At the moment of saying cold or hardness, is there any understanding of their characteristics? What is the understanding of it? The characteristic of non-self is not ready to appear yet. The experience of the actual seeing is not now, while talking about it. Remember, seeing is not self, but understanding is not yet of the degree that it can experience it as not self. When the Buddha pointed out the reality of seeing, the listeners paid attention to its characteristic. Nowadays it is different. There are different degrees of understanding. What is eyesense, cakkhu pasada? Answer: A kind of ruupa caused by kamma. T.A.: Who knows cakkhu pasada? What about pariyatti, pa.tipatti and pativedha? What is it now? Usually one is forgetful all the time. Are you forgetful? What are you forgetful of? You forget that there are only dhammas, no one there. Dhamma is so subtle, it is abhidhamma. What is seen? We are forgetful again. If one is not forgetful, what is seen? There is no one there, only visible object. At this very moment, what is seen? There can be a condition for understanding to develop. There is only one kind of reality that can be seen. Study means not just listening to words, but it is understanding the nature of realities. We think a lot of shape and form, but there is no one there. Really understanding of what we are talking about is the development from pariyatti to pa.tipatti. Who knows that that what is seen is just visible object, no people? When there is no thinking there is no one. Is this abhidhamma? It is very deep and subtle, letting go of people in this room. What kind of citta is there at the moment of thinking of a cat? That moment is not you, it is thinking. Thinking is real, not self. Sukin: There is nothing wrong with thinking, thinking is not the problem, but wrong view. What has arisen has already fallen away, we do not try to stop thinking. T.A.: It (thinking) is still you, not a dhamma. We are always forgetful. Who can know what dhamma is without studying? ********** Nina. #132676 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:08 am Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J:It's not me that would be right, it's the ancient commentators :-)) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which commentators? Theravada, Sarvastivada, Mahayana all agreed on one point: that practice is important. VsM, a "magnum opus" of Theravada is all about practice, be it dhutanga, or kammatthana. >J: It's not a question of ease or convenience. The only question >is, What exactly was the teaching of the Buddha? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hard work, perhaps to the point of tears, at eliminating akusala qualities. >Did he teach that the development of awareness required the doing of >specific activities, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes! And doing it, unfortunately, in seclusion. >Did he teach the selection of specific dhammas as object >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes! VsM lists 40. The suttas also have many objects such as corpses in decay, bodyparts, bodily positions, breathing, kasinas, etc. >or did he teach the development of understanding of dhammas in >whatever posture or situation one is at any time? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He recommended seclusion. >Did he teach that samatha had to be developed first, Buddha wanted to teach his two SAMATHA masters first because they had little dust in their eyes. With metta, Alex #132677 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:22 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, all, > > >HCW: It is 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 of oxygen *related by chemical >bonding and acting in concert*. There is nothing more than that >involved. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > You are correct about chemical bonding. But these details beside the point I was making. The point is that there can be a qualitatively new thing made from combination and bonding of simpler things. > > Even though water is made from chemical bonding of hydrogen and oxygen , it is a new phenomenon rather than being merely a collection of oxygen and hydrogen atoms. > > > > > >-------------------------------- > >HCW: A car is a collection of interrelated parts acting in concert. >It is just a sort of collection, not an individual phenomenon. > >------------------------------ > > Either you ar not understanding what I am saying (I am a bad communicator) or you are using sophisms. -------------------------------- HCW: I do understand what you are saying. I simply disagree with it. -------------------------------- > > A car is a qualitatively new thing that is emergent from its parts acting in concert. > > None of the parts of the car is "a car". But put and arranged together > in a certain ways, makes a car that can do what each indivial part cannot. > > A car or water cannot be reduced to its constituent parts. Water is not made of little waters, and neither is the car. > > > Reification is not cause of our existence, tanha and avijja is according to orthodox texts. ----------------------------- HCW: I believe that I did not say "cause". I said "curse". ----------------------------- And avijja here means not knowing/ignoring/denying 4 Noble Truths. > > > With best wishes, > > Alex > ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132678 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:30 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, > HCW: I do understand what you are saying. I simply disagree with it. > ------------------------------- Do you agree that water has different chemical properties than hydrogen or oxygen? >----------------------------- >HCW: I believe that I did not say "cause". I said "curse". >----------------------------- Sorry, I misread. What exactly do you mean by reification here? I agree that metaphysical speculations that cannot be verified are problematic. However we do have to distinguish one set of colors, etc, from another. Without making sense of what is seen, one would be almost like a log of wood. When I need to walk into another room, I walk through the door - not attempt to walk through the wall. Certain amount of recognition of "this is wall", "this is the door" is required for day to day functioning. Unless one is a motionless log of wood. With best wishes, Alex #132679 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:32 am Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts philofillet Hi Jon > > So the Four Arousings are "living contemplating the body, feelings, consciousness and mental objects" (in effect, all dhammas). > > Note that it is not just contemplating that is mentioned but *living* contemplating. This suggests not a practice but a developed (inculcated) habit. Yeah, suggests. Suggests to what? In my opinion fishing around in sutta translations and placing interpretations on English words in order to make a point is kind of lowering yourself to your opponents' tactics, that's what they do all the time. Suttas are far too deep and subtle for people of our understanding understanding to be able to do that. But at DSG you get forced into it. This is probably the Pasli word tgat is also transkated as abiding, and that sugests something else. We are all so ignorant, Jon, all of us. We shoukd handle suttas with trepidation. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jono.abbott" wrote: are maintained* is described in the text of the sutta beginning with the section on mindfulness of breathing and ending with the section on the 4 Noble Truths. This part constitutes the bulk of the sutta in volume. And as I have pointed out recently in another message, these sections are mostly worded in terms of "understanding", or "knowing with understanding", certain things. > > So the assurance given by the Buddha was an assurance in relation to maintaining a certain developed understanding, rather than maintaining any `practice' or `activity'. > > > =============== > > RE: In addition there is indeed an unbroken tradition in Buddhism in Buddhist communities of all national and cultural types of sitting meditation as described by the Buddha in the anapanasati sutta, and many of the practices of the satipatthana sutta are practiced as well. Certainly the Buddhist community throughout the centuries has taken these suttas as descriptions of how one should practice in order to attain Right Concentration and Right Mindfulness, as samatha/jhana and satipatthana. > > > > Would you agree, whether you think it is correctly founded or not, that such a tradition does exist, and that is the way that Buddhists have traditionally understood the Buddha's teachings in this area? > > =============== > > J: If you're interested in the tradition among Buddhists, you need look no further than the commentaries. These spell out how the teachings have been understood from the time of the Buddha himself down to the time of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or later (a period of more than a thousand years). > > > =============== > > RE: When suttas start with the meditator finding a quiet place at the root of a tree, sitting cross-legged and then following a series of concentration exercises, the intent is rather clear. > > =============== > > J: The Satipatthana Sutta does not begin in this manner. And I doubt there's any sutta that does! > > It might be time you re-read some of the suttas you're fond of relying on, to check whether your recollection of them is accurate :-)). > > Jon > #132680 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:25 am Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Howard, all, > > > HCW: I do understand what you are saying. I simply disagree with it. > > ------------------------------- > > Do you agree that water has different chemical properties than hydrogen or oxygen? -------------------------------- HCW: Of course, but for me, that is a conventional way of saying that hydrogen & oxygen connected in a certain fashion act in a certain fashion than if not so connected. (I'm starting to think that we are beating a dead horse. :-) -------------------------------- > > > >----------------------------- > >HCW: I believe that I did not say "cause". I said "curse". > >----------------------------- > > Sorry, I misread. What exactly do you mean by reification here? -------------------------------- HCW: Literally, "making real", or "Thing-a-fying," i.e., mentally substantializing. ------------------------------ > > I agree that metaphysical speculations that cannot be verified are problematic. > > However we do have to distinguish one set of colors, etc, from another. Without making sense of what is seen, one would be almost like a log of wood. > > When I need to walk into another room, I walk through the door - not attempt to walk through the wall. Certain amount of recognition of > "this is wall", "this is the door" is required for day to day functioning. Unless one is a motionless log of wood. -------------------------------- HCW: Of course! Perception and conception are necessary for navigating this world of appearance. ------------------------------- > > > With best wishes, > > Alex > ================================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #132681 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: accumulations and Abhidhamma philofillet Dear Group From the Useful Posts, Nina on accumulations. I quote one bit, which * should* be pretty obvious: >>> the truth in one > > lifetime is carried to the next; it doesn't go away. That is why > > any amount of meditation, even for five minutes a day, is beneficial > > because it will accumulate insight. > --------------------- > N:Yes, life after life, it does not go away. Unfortunately also as regards > lobha. Life after life, it does not go away. Please enjoy the rest of the post, very very rich: Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > just some remarks, see below > > op 16-01-2003 17:15 schreef James op > buddhatrue@...: > > Insight is not like that. It doesn't go away even when the > > practice stops. Whatever insight one gains, that insight sticks > > around until the final culmination in nibbana. > --------------- > N: Yes, a stage of insight is not forgotten. One goes on building upon it. > -------- > J: The same applies to > > lifetime after lifetime. Whatever one learns about the truth in one > > lifetime is carried to the next; it doesn't go away. That is why > > any amount of meditation, even for five minutes a day, is beneficial > > because it will accumulate insight. > --------------------- > N:Yes, life after life, it does not go away. Unfortunately also as regards > lobha. Life after life, it does not go away. > ---------------------- > J: Now, if mind states that know insight arise and fall away as the > > Abhidhamma states, how would this be possible? It wouldn't be > > possible. > ----------- > N: Yes, it is possible. Seeing just a moment ago is no more, there can be > thinking or hearing. Only one citta at a time, because each citta > experiences only one object at a time. Still, you can prove that what you > learnt as a child did not go away. Because each citta (sorry, moment of > consciousness, or mental moment, or, as Suan says, mental event) that falls > away is succeeded by the next one, and so on and on, life after life. There > is no moment without citta, then you would be dead. Still, they are > different cittas, not one long lasting citta. > Since each citta is succeeded by the next one accumulated tendencies are > carried on from one life to the next. Therefore insight can be accumulated. > I quote from some old posts, first about accumulations: > of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, contiguity condition. If > our life would not be an unbroken series of cittas, we could not stay alive. > Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see only what appears through > the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately know this or that person > is there, this or that thing, and that we also at the same time have like or > dislike of what we see. In reality there are countless moments of cittas > succeeding one another. The fact that many impressions seem to occur all at > the same time shows that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another > extremely fast. > Because cittas arise in succession, without a pause in between, there can be > accumulation of good and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala > cetasikas, from moment to moment, from one life to the next one. Attachment, > aversion, metta, pa~n~naa, these can be accumulated so that there are > conditions for their arising again and again. This is another type of > condition: natural strong dependance-condition, pakatupanissaya-paccaya. If > as a child you were taught generosity, generosity is accumulated, because > each citta is succeeded by a next one, and thus, there are conditions for > the arising again of generosity. There is no person who is good or bad, > there are cittas accompanied by cetasikas arising because of their own > conditions. > Where is the free will or right effort, are we automatic machines? Not at > all. We are not helpless victims of fate, as someone thought. Understanding > of our life can be developed, and this is because of the Dhamma the Buddha > realized through his enlightenment and taught for fortyfive years. > Conditions for pa~n~naa can be accumulated by listening, carefully > considering and by mindfulness of nama and rupa. We cannot control > mindfulness, sati, it is anatta, and if we try to do this there is lobha, a > factors which hinders the arising of sati. Just listening and investigation > of what occurs in our life now can condition the arising of sati. We can > study the Dhamma but, as A. Sujin reminded us very often, we should study > with the right purpose: to have more understanding of this moment now, of > seeing now, attachment now, anger now. Otherwise our study is useless. Thus, > we should ask ourselves: how is this or that point of the Abhidhamma related > to this moment now? > Intention or volition, cetana, is a cetasika arising with each citta, and > when kusala citta arises volition is kusala, when akusala citta arises, > volition is akusala. Since cittas arise and fall away in succession > extremely rapidly, can we say to ourselves, I want to have kusala cetana at > this very moment? Is it not better to see cetana as a conditioned reality? > If we understand conditions free will does not have to be an issue anymore. > It is the same with effort. There is right effort, but it is a cetasika, not > us. It arises because of conditions. > Kamma is another type of condition. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma are also > accumulated and can produce results later on by way of rebirth, or by way of > vipakacittas that experience pleasant or unpleasant objects through the > senses. Kamma-condition is a type of condition different from natural strong > dependence-condition that causes us to be attached now or to be angry now. > > The Visuddhimagga explains (XVII, 167):< And with a stream of continuity > there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity > in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And > yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from > milk.> When one realizes the falling away of realities, one knows that they > do not last, that there is nothing eternal or permanent. By seeing > conditions one keeps the Middle Way: no annihilation belief, no eternalism. > As I said, the theory is not too difficult, but the direct realization of > the truth is difficult for all of us, it takes a long time. Here comes in > the patience, the highest ascetism.> > > Life passes just in a flash. I quote from Visuddhimagga, XX, 72, which > contains actually quotes from the Maha-Niddesa, Sutta on Old Age: > > Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Gods, though they life for four-and eighty thousand > Aeons, are not the same for two such moments. > Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return; > And those that break up meanwhile, and in future, > Have traits no different from those ceased before. > No (world is) born if (consciousness) is not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: > The highest sense this concept will allow. > No store of broken states, no future stock; > Those born balance like seeds on needle points. > Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; > Those present decay, unmingled with those past. > > The visible object impinges on the eyesense and then seeing-consciousness > arises, and the meeting or association of them is unthinkably short, like > the seed balancing on a needle point. Life is so short, this is Mindfulness > of death. Abhidhamma and satipatthana, which is actually Abhidhamma applied, > lead to mindfulness of death. > James, your expectations, your fear and sadness of yesterday have gone, > today you are different, you may laugh. You wrote to Christine about your > experiences when you were about to become a monk. Thank you for sharing > these. Understandable that you also become sad when recollecting these. But > sadness does not last. I find it consoling that it is said, pleasure pain--just these alone join in one > consciousness moment that flicks by.> A dear person we cling to has to die. > Life is so short, there is death and rebirth at each moment. This is > reality. > You can verify that James now is no longer James as a child, and that still, > in a way, there is still James. From milk comes curd. Here you are with all > your accumulated tendencies, good and bad. In a former life you may have > studied Dhamma, and that conditions your interest today. > ____________ > > J:The Abhidhamma is dead wrong about this issue. > ------------ > N. > I want to quote part of a post by my friend Suan. He gives a good > explanation of Abhidhamma: > > between Suttas and Abhidhamma. > Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only abhidhamma. In plain > English, abhidhamma is the subject of what we can observe, > experience, remove, eradicate, cultivate, develop and achieve - in > short, the subject of what we can do with our minds or our lives. > And as every discourse in the Sutta Pitaka also deals with what we > can do with our minds or our lives, every discourse teaches segments > of abhidhamma. > Now, why then is there the differentiation between Sutta Pitaka and > Abhidhamma Pitaka? > The differentiation is not what they teach, but how they teach.> > End quote. > Nina. > #132682 From: "Ken H" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:37 am Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. kenhowardau Hi James and Jagkrit, ---- <. . .> > James: It was in existence long before the Buddha, not at any location or any day, and anytime anyone wanted to observe the 8 precepts? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Sorry. How could you even prove such an outrageous notion? ----- KH: According to this sutta even cowherds and Jains had their uposata days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recollections.html "And what is the uposatha of the Jains? There are the contemplatives called the Niganthas [Jains]. <. . .>"On the uposatha day, they get their disciple to undertake the following practice: 'Here, my good man. Having stripped off all your clothing, say this: "I am nothing by anything or of anything. Thus there is nothing by anything or of anything that is mine."' Yet in spite of that, his parents know of him that 'This is our child.' And he knows of them that 'These are my parents.' His wives & children know of him that 'This is our husband & father.' And he knows of them that 'These are my wives & children.' His workers & slaves know of him that 'This is our master.' And he knows of them that 'These are my workers & slaves.' Thus at a time when he should be persuaded to undertake truthfulness, he is persuaded to undertake falsehood. At the end of the night, he resumes the consumption of his belongings, even though they aren't given back to him. This counts as stealing, I tell you. Such is the uposatha of the Jains, Visakha. When this uposatha of the Jains is undertaken, it is not of great fruit or great benefit, not of great glory or radiance." — AN 3.70 Ken H #132683 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:12 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma masters teaching walking meditation dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al On what you wrote in part: Why not tell us a little more about your background and your Abhidhamma classes in Texas? Tep also lives in Texas. ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .................................. 1. The last I read; Tep lived in or near College Station; home of Texas A&M University. He is a retired professor. Approx. two hundred miles. 2. Monday I plan to drive from the Philly Area to The Texas Hill Country. Depending on the weather, et cetera; it will be a two to three day drive and may drive thruough Austin, Texas. If so, I will try to visit subject vihara and, perhaps, meet Kenneth. peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck http://www.sitagu.org/austin/About/about.html http://sitagu.org/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg-8KFQ6Emg [Rest deleted by Chuck] #132684 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi James and Jagkrit, > > ---- > <. . .> > > James: It was in existence long before the Buddha, not at any location or any day, and anytime anyone wanted to observe the 8 precepts? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Sorry. How could you even prove such an outrageous notion? > ----- > > KH: According to this sutta even cowherds and Jains had their uposata days: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recollections.html Yes they did, but those days weren't spent observing the eight precepts or doing anything that disciples of the Buddha did. Just because they have the same name that doesn't mean they are the same. Metta, James #132685 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:27 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Third time was not there (The Text Abhidhamma) dhammasaro Howdy Sarah, As commonly is stated in Thailand, "Maipenrai" (Thai for, "No problem", "It's okay".) and as stated by us Hispanics in South Texas, "Por Nada" (Spanish for, "It is nothing"). peace... yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck <....> Sarah: Thanks for joining in the discussions. I'm sorry - I overlooked your note and good qu below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: >S: I was pointing out that regardless of whether we're talking about a > sammaasambuddha or a "simple arahat", adhisiila, adhicitta AND > adhipa~n~naa have been attained. The work is done. All defilements have > been eradicated. There is no more becoming. >C: If this question is too far afar; please ignore... > > Question: Do not most Arahants (Sanskrit: Arahats) have kamma (Sanskrit: karma) to eliminate before "no more becoming?"? .... S: The job is done. There is no more becoming. No new kamma. However, for the remainder of that life, past kamma continues to bring its results. The texts distinguish between: a) The full eradication of defilements (kilesa-parinibbaana or sa-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana) when becoming an arahat b) The final ceasing of khandhas ( khandha-parinibbaana or an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana) at the death of an arahat. <...> #132686 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > > James: This is absolutely not what I understand about Uposatha Days. It was in existence long before the Buddha, not at any location or any day, and anytime anyone wanted to observe the 8 precepts? That doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Sorry. How could you even prove such an outrageous notion? > > JK: If I say this comes from many suttas in Tipitika, you will shun me down because you want to use common sense. But my common sense on this Uposatha Days is from the right understanding what Uposatha is ? > > > > > The Uposatha nowadays is transformed to be a modern traditional day where Buddhists choose each full moon day to go to the temple and observe 8 precepts. It is, therefore, twisted. > > > James: I think the only thing twisted is your mind. You need to provide concrete proof for this or it is really wacko. > > JK: It is true (not twisted of mind). In many suttas describe that Uposatha is mainly about 8 precepts, leave out about day. Sometimes, a layperson observes Uposatha sila for 3 months instead of one day. Only one sutta mentions that Sakka teva set particular day as Uposatha day for his followers to observe. I'm not sure that when exactly recent Buddhists selected full moon day to be Uposatha day. > Ken H. was so kind as to find the appropriate sutta. (As I said before, I have given up searching for sources.) Here it is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html In the sutta, the Buddha says that there are three different Uposatha Days: The cowhearder, the Jain, and the Buddhist. They are each quite different from each other so it cannot be said that Uposatha Days, with observation of the 8 precepts, existed long before the Buddha. His Uposatha Days were quite different and were supposed to be different (The main different between the Buddha's Uposatha Days and the others is that his was supposed to be about "cleansing the mind" i.e. meditation, not just observing precepts or doing silly rituals). Metta, James #132687 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:43 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > JK: If I say this comes from many suttas in Tipitika, you will shun me down because you want to use common sense. But my common sense on this Uposatha Days is from the right understanding what Uposatha is ? > > > > > The Uposatha nowadays is transformed to be a modern traditional day where Buddhists choose each full moon day to go to the temple and observe 8 precepts. It is, therefore, twisted. > > > James: I think the only thing twisted is your mind. You need to provide concrete proof for this or it is really wacko. > > JK: It is true (not twisted of mind). In many suttas describe that Uposatha is mainly about 8 precepts, leave out about day. Sometimes, a layperson observes Uposatha sila for 3 months instead of one day. Only one sutta mentions that Sakka teva set particular day as Uposatha day for his followers to observe. I'm not sure that when exactly recent Buddhists selected full moon day to be Uposatha day. > > I will quote specifically from the sutta regarding this issue, and comment at the end: "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones reflects thus: 'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning the taking of life — abstain from the taking of life. They dwell with their rod laid down, their knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning the taking of life — abstain from the taking of life. I dwell with my rod laid down, my knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning the taking of what is not given — abstain from taking what is not given. They take only what is given, accept only what is given, live not by stealing but by means of a self that has become pure. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning the taking of what is not given — abstain from taking what is not given. I take only what is given, accept only what is given, live not by stealing but by means of a self that has become pure. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning uncelibacy — live a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning uncelibacy — live a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning false speech — abstain from false speech. They speak the truth, hold to the truth, are firm, reliable, no deceivers of the world. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning false speech — abstain from false speech. I speak the truth, hold to the truth, am firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness — abstain from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness — abstain from fermented & distilled liquors that cause heedlessness. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants live on one meal a day, abstaining from food at night, refraining from food at the wrong time of day [from noon until dawn]. Today I too, for this day & night, live on one meal, abstaining from food at night, refraining from food at the wrong time of day. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants abstain from dancing, singing, music, watching shows, wearing garlands, beautifying themselves with perfumes & cosmetics. Today I too, for this day & night, abstain from dancing, singing, music, watching shows, wearing garlands, beautifying myself with perfumes & cosmetics. By means of this factor I emulate the arahants, and my Uposatha will be observed. "'As long as they live, the arahants — abandoning high & imposing seats & beds — abstain from high & imposing seats & beds. They make low beds, on a pallet or a spread of straw. Today I too, for this day & night — abandoning high & imposing seats & beds — abstain from high & imposing seats & beds. I make a low bed, on a pallet or a spread of straw.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html From this you can see that the Uposatha Day was specifically about emulating the monks (arahants) and that it did specifically last for one day and night. That is not a modern tradition, it goes back to the Buddha himself. Metta, James #132688 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:01 pm Subject: Re: the khandhas are realities. thomaslaw03 Dear all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > Dear Thomas, > Op 19 aug 2013, om 02:34 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > > > Also, according to the Pali SN 22.95 (PTS SN iii, pp. 140-143), it reports the Buddha as teaching that the five aggregates (khandhas) are seen as void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), and lacking essence (asaaraka) (see The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, p. 54; and Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Connected Discourses of the Buddha, p. 951). > > > > > > The Pali term for void/without reality is rittaka. It is just without > reality/void. The term should be understood together with the next two terms, tucchaka (insubstantial) and asaaraka (lacking essence) (See also PTS, Pali-English Dictionary, p. 571). > > > ------- > > Nina: Thank you, Thomas, for giving these Pali terms, I had not met them before. I was actually thinking of su~n~nattaa. > Sarah just gave a useful quote in another post: > > >"Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: > Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world. …. > >"Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54]Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85."> > ------- > > Nina: Can you help me tracing the Pali in this sutta: is it su~n~nattaa? > > Thomas: > > The text (SN 35.85) indicates one of the meanings for the term su~n~nattaa, i.e., not-self, empty of self. (See The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 93-4). > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is: > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality), just vain (insubstantial), just empty (lacking essence)." (See The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 92 and 54). > > Note: No any suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as `realities'. But there are suttas (particularly the SN suttas) report the Buddha as teaching that seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres as anicca, as dukkha, as anatta (= not-self, empty of self), as su~n~naka/su~n~nattaa (= as rittaka, tucchaka, asaaraka). (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 92 and 54). > > Thomas > ------------- So, according to suttas, the five aggregates/sense spheres are not-realities (or they are just dhammas `phenomenana') taught by the Buddha; but, according to Abhdhammattha Sangaha, ther are real, realities (or `ultimate realities' paramattha). Theravada tradition obviously is multicultural, does not have united teachings. Regards, Thomas #132689 From: "kevinf596" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:13 pm Subject: Hi from Kevin kevinf596 Hi everyone, this is Kevin from the US (in Thailand atm). I careted a new account and just wanted to say 'Hello' (problems logging in with old account as I haven't used it in quite some time). I hope everyone is well. I look forward to taking part in more discussions! Take care! Kevin #132690 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:16 pm Subject: e-note from Thailand 1 (Aug 2013) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I chatted on the phone with Han this morning. No matter what physical ailments or weakness he may have, he always sound good-humoured and always reflects on the Dhamma as applied to his daily life. We talked about the 'tests' in daily life, as opposed to hospital tests and the value of "patience, courage and good cheer" when experiencing the results of akusala kamma through the body sense. The real problems always come back to the "second arrow" - the avijja and tanha in particular. We also talked about various kinds of nutriment. In the hospital operation room, the doctors may try to cut off the 'nutriment', the cause of one's ailments. However, there are four nutriments which the Buddha taught by which the body and mind are fed: 1. Material food (aahaara), 2. Contact (phassa cetasika), 3. Volition (cetanaa cetasika), 4. Consciousness (vi~n~naana). Of these 4 kinds of ahara (nutriment), oja or food essence makes it possible for the oja in the rupas in the body to produce other rupas. The other 3 kinds are mental ahara - phassa, cetana and citta. Wishing you well, Han, physically and mentally! Metta Sarah ===== #132691 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:31 pm Subject: e-note from Thailand 2 (Aug 2013 with A.Sujin) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We had a lively discussion at the foundation yesterday. I was particularly glad to see Kevin again after a long absence and of course to see Tadao, Betty, Sukin, Thai friends and new visitors, Paul & Ray, contributing to the discussion. Tadao made a comment about how he loves to read Pali texts and how he feels it is wholesome to memorize the Buddha's words. While he's walking, he recites and tries to learn the texts by heart. A.Sujin: "Yes, but what is now? This is the most important." "What about being able to think about what is in Tipitaka and what is now? Otherwise, no way to understand what appears now." She asked him for an example and he recited the first few lines of the first Dhp verse: "manopubbangama dhamma manosettha manomaya manasa ce padutthena" A.Sujin: "Whenever one says anything about citta, it's here and now and pa~n~naa can bring more understanding of it." "If there can be understanding of the moment of thinking or saying out that phrase, it's better." Another topic was 'Being a nice person': A.Sujin: "The point is to be good or to understand reality? Each word should be considered carefully like now.When we talk about citta - the chief of that which experiences an object right now. Now, that which sees, that which hears, in order to really understand a reality. It doesn't mean you just think about "manopubbangama dhamma...", but it is this moment which sees that which appears. Otherwise it's postponed all the time by thinking." Metta Sarah ====== #132692 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:41 pm Subject: Re: Hi from Kevin sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kevinf596" wrote: > > Hi everyone, this is Kevin from the US (in Thailand atm). > > I careted a new account and just wanted to say 'Hello' (problems logging in with old account as I haven't used it in quite some time). > > I hope everyone is well. I look forward to taking part in more discussions! .... S: Thanks for 'breaking the ice' after your long absence. We've missed you here! Great to see you yesterday and to hear your keen interest in the Dhamma again. Were there any points from the discussion you could summarise? For example, there was a long discussion about kamma introduced by a new American friend, Paul, which I didn't mention. You made an interesting comment about how you used to say "just by conditions", for example when angry, but now there is more understanding there is more consideration about "what's the point of having akusala?" and how gradually there is a letting go of akusala with understanding. Perhaps you can elaborate here. Also, your introduction about how when you had returned to the States from Thailand, you had followed other traditions, but gradually realised that all the new so-called understanding was just a lot of thinking and how now you appreciate the Buddha's teachings about realities more. I think others here would be interested in and might benefit from your elaboration as it touches on many current topics. And finally, I appreciated all your reminders about the 'brick-layer' - building blocks in samsara most of the day. Again, if you have time, elaborate for others here. Look forward to the trip to Kaeng Krachan with you and other friends tomorrow. If you have time, jot down some qus for Ajahn as these are your last discussions before departure and we'll all benefit. Metta Sarah ======= #132693 From: "jono.abbott" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:43 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts jono.abbott Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon > > > > J: So the Four Arousings are "living contemplating the body, feelings, consciousness and mental objects" (in effect, all dhammas). > > > > Note that it is not just contemplating that is mentioned but *living* contemplating. This suggests not a practice but a developed (inculcated) habit. > > > Ph: Yeah, suggests. Suggests to what? In my opinion fishing around in sutta translations and placing interpretations on English words ... > =============== J: Well in fact my suggested interpretation was based on the known Pali word (`viharati'), rather than the English translation. > =============== > Ph: ... in order to make a point is kind of lowering yourself to your opponents' tactics, that's what they do all the time. Suttas are far too deep and subtle for people of our understanding understanding to be able to do that. But at DSG you get forced into it. > > This is probably the Pasli word tgat is also transkated as abiding, and that sugests something else. > =============== J: So it's OK to form a view of the possible meaning (based on the *probable* Pali word(!)), but it shouldn't be mentioned? > =============== > Ph: We are all so ignorant, Jon, all of us. We shoukd handle suttas with trepidation. > =============== J: Quite so, Phil. Thanks for the reminder (and for keeping us on our toes :-)) Jon #132694 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:49 pm Subject: Re: the khandhas are realities. sarahprocter... Dear Thomas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > Nina: Thank you, Thomas, for giving these Pali terms, I had not met them before. I was actually thinking of su~n~nattaa. > Sarah just gave a useful quote in another post: > > >"Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: > Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world. …. > >"Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54]Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85."> > ------- > >T: The text (SN 35.85) indicates one of the meanings for the term su~n~nattaa, i.e., not-self, empty of self. (See The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 93-4). > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is: > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality), .... S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality? For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea? Metta Sarah ===== #132695 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:58 pm Subject: Re: anattaa. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Alex), Thank you for your help: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Also, he gives this commentary note: > > > "Spk: Thus, by the expression 'the carrier of the burden,' he shows the person to be a mere convention. For the person is called the carrier of the burden because it 'picks up' the burden of the aggregates at the moment of rebirth, maintains the burden by bathing, feeding, seating, and laying them down during the course of life, and then discards them at the moment of death, only to take up another burden of aggregates at the moment of rebirth." > -------------- ... S: I'm glad to read this quote again. It's a great reminder of the burden that the khandhas are from the moment of birth through to death, lifetime after lifetime. They need to be bathed, fed, seated, laid down.....pampered all day long, just for the whole thing to start all over again. Each khandha, inherently unsatisfactory and subject to clinging all day-long. ... > KH: So there we have it! (As if we didn't already know.) Contrary to Thanissaro B's heterodoxy, dutifully brought to us by Tep and Alex, and others before them, anatta does indeed mean THERE IS NO PUGALLA. ... S: Just khandhas, no being, no pugalla who literally carries them anywhere! I'm reminded of the 2 kinds of speech we discussed with Alberto - pariyaaya (non-literal) and nippariyaaya (literal). We need to consider the Abhidhamma details otherwise the non-literal is taken for being literally true. Metta Sarah ==== #132696 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Hi Azita & Ann, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > I understand your feelings re not making Thailand and V'nam this time - however, I find that each time there is a dhamma gathering that I am unable to attend in person, i really hunker down and listen to recordings etc. more - as if I am trying to create my own "dhamma gathering" here! But you are quite right - the best thing is developing understanding of the presently arising dhamma. Best way to pay respect to teacher, teachings and to develop understanding. ... S: Yes, always back to the citta now. There is no other one. In no time, the cittas now will be yesterday's! > >Az: Was feeling disappointed that I can't make T'land and V'nam this time, and then thought that the best way to pay respect to my teacher was to stop thinking about somewhere else and just be here, now. > > There are dhammas wherever we are so not necessary to go anywhere in particular or do anything special. .... S: Yes, now..... disappointment, the opposite of metta....more unhappiness by thinking of oneself. Just conditioned dhammas, not self at all. If either of you have any more qus to be raised, will be glad to do so. Also Rob Ep and anyone else - the sooner the better so I can print them out if they're long. metta Sarah p.s about to go off for a bargain "medical massage" in the street outside....! And the rain has just started....now... ===== #132697 From: "kevinf596" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:22 pm Subject: Re: Hi from Kevin kevinf596 Sarah wrote: > > Hi Kevin, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kevinf596" wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, this is Kevin from the US (in Thailand atm). > > > > I careted a new account and just wanted to say 'Hello' (problems logging in with old account as I haven't used it in quite some time). > > > > I hope everyone is well. I look forward to taking part in more discussions! > .... > > S: Thanks for 'breaking the ice' after your long absence. We've missed you here! > > Great to see you yesterday and to hear your keen interest in the Dhamma again. Were there any points from the discussion you could summarise? For example, there was a long discussion about kamma introduced by a new American friend, Paul, which I didn't mention. Kevin: Hi Sarah. Thank you so much for the welcoming reply : ) I am a little low on energy today. I got a Thai massage but the lady pressed on my stomach many times which I think caused some mild internal bleeding. Before I left the States I had bloodwork done and they suspected anemia as my iron levels were too low, they did more tests and saw that I was losing blood internally but they weren't sure where as of yet (blood in stools). Interestingly, when I saw an Ayurvedic doctor in Bangkok, he explained that I had a problem with my stomach (which I had no idea about) but after the massage I experienced abdominal pain, and the next day the symptoms were much worse than normal, so I must have lost some blood, but I am taking some iron now, and adjusting my diet based on some research, I am sure I will be fine. I will tell my doctor what happened when I go home. I don't think it is anything major, but something for me to be aware of (Edited: writing this edit now towards the end of my reply and I am feeling much better and excited about the trip to Kaeng Krachan tomorrow). Anyway, the discussion was very interesting. I think both Paul (who Betty brought), and Sukin's nephew, Ray, had some more interest in Dhamma sparked but it looks like they need to hear/read/listen more because they have many questions (which is excellent). Also Tadao (sp?) our Japanese friend seems to be very interested in the study of Dhamma and is asking many questions every week, which is terrific. This is a great opportunity for him to really understand the teachings, which I think he is starting to. I suspect he will have many more question in KK, which is wonderful. Sarah wrote: > You made an interesting comment about how you used to say "just by conditions", for example when angry, but now there is more understanding there is more consideration about "what's the point of having akusala?" and how gradually there is a letting go of akusala with understanding. Perhaps you can elaborate here. K: Yes, in the past, when I was aware that I was experiencing lots of lobha or dosa, rather than try to force "myself" to stop it (which is just piling up more akusala..), I would remind myself that these things were "just by conditions", which helped, especially in understanding their nature, at least in a conceptual way, but I don't think it lead to any strong lessening of the defilements at those times (which is OK). But sometimes now I notice that when I remind myself that my current aksuala is just by conditions, I start to understand that it is very irrational to cling to conditioned dhammas, and I experience more detachment (again only sometimes... I can absolutely still be furious too : )). I think this is a good thing to understand, ie. that gradually, gradually, over time our accumulations of defilements can become more tempered, when there is more understanding.... very gradually. Sarah wrote: > Also, your introduction about how when you had returned to the States from Thailand, you had followed other traditions, but gradually realised that all the new so-called understanding was just a lot of thinking and how now you appreciate the Buddha's teachings about realities more. I think others here would be interested in and might benefit from your elaboration as it touches on many current topics. K: Yes, I had come to believe in Mahayana again, based on Madhyamaka material, but I have come to see this as an error. Sarah wrote: > And finally, I appreciated all your reminders about the 'brick-layer' - building blocks in samsara most of the day. Again, if you have time, elaborate for others here. K: Yes. Let me see if I can find the relevant passages from Survey (A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas) and I will reproduce it here in a new thread entitled 'Bricklayer' (thanks for bringing that up because I found that analogy to be so helpful for learning how to establish mindfulness (by conditions)). Sarah wrote: > Look forward to the trip to Kaeng Krachan with you and other friends tomorrow. If you have time, jot down some qus for Ajahn as these are your last discussions before departure and we'll all benefit. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > I am uber excited about the trip! Kevin #132698 From: "kevinf596" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:54 pm Subject: Re: Hi from Kevin kevinf596 P.S: Sorry I was feeling a little woozy as I said... how could I forget: It was great seeing you and Jon again! Kevin #132699 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:42 pm Subject: Saturday Session in English, live, part 2 nilovg Dear Jagkrit and friends, Saturday Session in English, live, part 2: T.A.: Anattaa is a word, meaning, no control. It does not appear yet. We have to listen so that we understand it. Without there being paramattha dhammas can there be “I” or “things”? If there is no seeing can there be you right now? What we take for “I” are only different realities. What we take for “I” arises and falls away. Where are you? Sukin: When a cat appears it is thinking. Seeing does not see a cat. It is confusing to say that there is no cat. People have difficulties when they hear that people do not exist. But there is thinking about people. Thinking is real. T.A.: Everyone knows that there are many people now, but what is real? What is real in the absolute sense? Everyone sees, but what is seen is not known. Thinking follows upon the seeing. The Buddha taught about all realities as they are. We like to understand what is taken for people and things. What was born? Everyone can say: a dog, a cat, a human. Is this table born? No. But a human being is born. Why do we say that? For everyone realities arise and fall away in splitseconds. But it is unknown. The Buddha had attained enlightenment and knew everything as it is. Because of thinking of shape and form there is the idea of people. Without absolute realities there is nothing. We think that “we” see and hear. Seeing is only a reality that has conditions to arise. Seeing is not hearing or thinking. Seeing only sees visible object. It cannot arise at the same time as hearing. Is there I or a self who sees, hears or thinks? There are only different realities that are conditioned. Sound is a reality; when it appears it can be studied. Studying Dhamma is not reading from page to page. It is time to study realities when they appear, they are not just in the book. It is not theoretical understanding, there has to be understanding of this very moment. Thinking thinks a lot of different stories. What was a moment ago has completely gone. It does not belong to anyone at all. What is real at this moment? Tasting? Without tasting sweetness cannot appear at all. We have heard a lot about ignorance. Who knows that there is ignorance at the moment of not understanding whatever appears. Question: How can there be mettaa when there are no people. We have to do good to people, to my parents. T.A.: It seems that those who understand the teachings do not know anything at all. But the teachings deal with daily realities. Like attachment. It is real, it is conditioned. Whenever it arises you cannot change it into aversion. Right understanding knows what is attachment and what is mettaa. There are no wrong concepts about them. Attachment is akusala, it wants to get, not to give. Kindness wants to give away, not just for your own sake. There should be understanding that conditions giving. One should be very truthful, one acts to one’s parents with attachment or with understanding? Understanding the goodness of one’s own parents is kusala. Even your parents are realities. You have kusala and akusala, and your parents also. There is no permanent self. What you call parents are realities arisen by different conditions. There is attaa sa~n~naa (wrong remembrance of self) and anattaa sa~n~naa (right remembrance of non-self). So long as realities do not appear as non-self there is attaa sa~n~naa. Attaa sa~n~naa arises with akusala. When kusala citta arises there is still the latent tendency of attaa sa~n~naa. We talk about attaa sa~n~naa and anattaa sa~n~naa, but they do not appear. We talk about anattaa sa~n~naa but there is all the time attaa sa~n~naa. What is there when anattaa appears? Different characteristics one at a time. When they appear one at a time there is anattaa, but when there are many people there is no anattaa sa~n~naa. Can there be anattaa sa~n~naa right now? It is possible, at any time. It is attaa sa~n~naa that wishes to have anattaa sa~n~naa. How can there be anattaa sa~n~naa ? Answer: We have no control. T.A.: That is still me. It is only thinking. One is always trapped by self and attachment. Wishing is a kind of attachment. Whenever there is right understanding it performs the function of detachment. Q: Is there detachment if one does not want anything in return for one’s good deeds? T.A.: It is still “I” who does not want this. Whenever there is no understanding the idea of self is there. Seeing sees and there is no idea of me, but there is still the latent tendency of the wrong view of self. We have to study citta, cetasika and ruupa in detail. There is not at all moments an idea of self. But the latent tendency is there. Pa~n~naa can see wrong view as just a reality when it appears. At the moment of touching, what appears? Is it me, my hand? When it does not appear as me, pa~n~naa cannot know it. It can know it when it appears and it can eliminate the idea of me. It is only a reality, not my hand anymore. Seeing sees now, hearing hears now. When there is no understanding we only know the “story” (concept) of them. Pariyatti is not reading without understanding, one has to know that there is no one there at all. Everyone who studies the abhidhamma knows that seeing arises with seven cetasikas. Understanding of the level of pariyatti knows the difference between citta and cetasika. Citta is the faculty of experiencing a reality whereas cetasikas who also experience the object have each their own function. What is the object of study at this moment? Citta cannot experience an object without the cetasika phassa, contact, that contacts the object. At each moment there are citta and cetasikas, not you. They are all cetasikas that brought you here; without confidence, saddhaa, hiri and ottappa (shame and fear of blame of akusala) you would not be here. Question about adi.t.thaana, resolution. T.A. In Thai it means doing a wish when doing good deeds. But one does good deeds by conditions, not by one’s wish. Adi.t.thaana is the resolution to do good deeds. It never is enough. That is why there must be adi.t.thaana. ******* Nina. #132700 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:09 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James > Ken H. was so kind as to find the appropriate sutta. (As I said before, I have given up searching for sources.) Here it is: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html > > In the sutta, the Buddha says that there are three different Uposatha Days: The cowhearder, the Jain, and the Buddhist. They are each quite different from each other so it cannot be said that Uposatha Days, with observation of the 8 precepts, existed long before the Buddha. His Uposatha Days were quite different and were supposed to be different (The main different between the Buddha's Uposatha Days and the others is that his was supposed to be about "cleansing the mind" i.e. meditation, not just observing precepts or doing silly rituals). JK: Thank you to Ken. Even though this sutta didn't describe exactly Uposatha the same as Buddhist Uposatha exist before the Lord Buddha time but it did show the existance of Uposatha in different communities and surely in the previous Buddha time, there will be Uposatha day as well. However, if we talk about the day which was Uposatha day, in the beginning of the sutta, it says: "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Now at that time — it being the Uposatha day — Visakha, Migara's mother, went to the Blessed One in the middle of the day and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As she was sitting there the Blessed One said to her, "Well now, Visakha, why are you coming in the middle of the day?" "Today I am observing the Uposatha, lord." JK: Do you notice that it was the day that just Visakha chose to observe as Uposatha day. That why the Lord Baddha asked why she came in the middle of that day. Then the Lord Buddha explained in detail the right observation about Uposatha. Otherwise the Lord Buddha wouldn't have ask why Visakha came early. This fact shows that Uposatha day in the past was not fixed date like nowadays Uposatha day. Anumodhana Jagkrit #132701 From: "philip" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:59 pm Subject: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jono.abbott" wrote: > > Hi Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > Hi Jon > > =============== > > J: Well in fact my suggested interpretation was based on the known Pali word (`viharati'), rather than the English translation. Ok, and in your case there would gave been listenjng about the meaning, and study of commentaries. You would not be writing based on a belief that you can read a sutta and understand it in line with the conventional meaning of the words. > > =============== > > Ph: ... in order to make a point is kind of lowering yourself to your opponents' tactics, that's what they do all the time. Suttas are far too deep and subtle for people of our understanding understanding to be able to do that. But at DSG you get forced into it. > > > > This is probably the Pasli word tgat is also transkated as abiding, and that sugests something else. > > =============== > > J: So it's OK to form a view of the possible meaning (based on the *probable* Pali word(!)), but it shouldn't be mentioned? Ph: No. I wasn't forming a view. I don't tend to read suttas and form views about them these days. DSG has ruined my ability to read suttas with confidence that I understand them, , in other words Dsg has spared me from delusion in that regard. It was an idle statement without much thought. > > =============== > > Ph: We are all so ignorant, Jon, all of us. We shoukd handle suttas with trepidation. > > =============== > > J: Quite so, Phil. Thanks for the reminder (and for keeping us on our toes :-)) Thanks Jon, have a great trip. Phil #132702 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Hi Ann & Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: > Ann: Sarah, your comment above re really having the stranger's welfare at hears or just enjoying one's own pleasant feeling really struck me. Probably both, very often. While it may start as genuine concern for the other, so often that feeling of satisfaction quickly pops in. And of course, when one starts thinking about what it might be or have been, only thinking, > > As for hoping for the friendly smile in return, yes, that would be loba and wrong understanding. But they are all different moments, could be some metta, then loba and later dose with the irritation about the other person's reaction. > > Understanding will know when conditions are there for it. ... S: Yes and it doesn't matter - all dhammas which can be known as dhammas, not self. Here's a quote I like from yesterday: A.Sujin: "The absolute truth is no self. Anything which we are thinking of, if there is no understanding of it as a reality, then it has to be self. The only way is to develop understanding until, no matter akusala arises or kusala arises, the panna can understand, not try to stop it, but to understand it as it is." We leave tomorrow for KK. Hope you'll both continue chipping in! Metta Sarah p.s We've just finished the editing of the last KK, Bkk series, June 2013 which I think is one of the best sets of recordings. Hopefully the last tracks will be uploaded before we leave, depending on Jon's juggling of legal work, uploading, posting, swimming and packing! =========== #132703 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:05 pm Subject: Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:Can you be calm at will now? Who would like to so calm now? Doesn't >such wishing and trying just lead to more agitation and disturbance >when it's not as one would wish? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Can I play a piano now? Not unless I was practicing for a long time. > > Could the same be with skill in samatha? > BTW, some monks could attain calm at will. It is one of the skills in samatha, to attain it at will. ..... S: All conditioned dhammas, even such will! When there's trying and wishing with attachment, nothing but disappointment and agitation. Metta Sarah ======== #132704 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:11 pm Subject: Re: anatta, control, faulty arguments. sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > >S:Can you control what seeing sees now, what hearing hears now, what >thinking thinks about now? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >A: I can decide to look to the left and see what is there. I can decide to look to the right and see there. I can decide to listen to this or that mp3 file on my computer. > > If I decide to think "what is 1+1?" I can do that. .... S: It's an illusion, Alex. Just thinking which is conditioned with sanna which marks and remembers each object. This is how a baby learns to recognise objects or a child learns to count. Just conditioned dhammas... ... > >Can you have calm at will now? Can you control whether pleasant or >painful bodily feeling arises now or not? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >A: I don't have much skill in samatha yet, but those people who do - often can control many things about what they feel and don't feel. .... S: Never mind about "those people". Now, when there is wise reflection about present realities, such as pleasant or unpleasant bodily feeling or tangible object experienced, the citta is calm....for a moment. ... > >S: Is seeing dhamma? Is visible object dhamma? When hardness is >experienced now, is it real? Does it belong to a self? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >A: It depends what is implied by "belonging to a self". ... S: There is just the experiencing of hardness. No self involved at all at such moments. Metta Sarah p.s I'll have to ask others to continue these discussions for now. ====== #132705 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Knowledge Not Shared By Disciples sarahprocter... Dear Chuck (& Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Maipenrai Dhammasaro wrote: > May I suggest we peruse the Sutta-pitka referenced by good friend Dr. Han Tun? It is: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html > > Comments/discussion? ... S: Why don't you quote a paragraph or two from it and add some comments to let us know what is on your mind? Metta Sarah ======= #132706 From: "kevinf596" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada kevinf596 Sarah wrote: > > p.s We've just finished the editing of the last KK, Bkk series, June 2013 which I think is one of the best sets of recordings. Hopefully the last tracks will be uploaded before we leave, depending on Jon's juggling of legal work, uploading, posting, swimming and packing! > =========== > Kevin: By the way, guys, these talks (meaning all the uploaded talks in general) are SO helpful for me. I am looking forward to listening to all of the talks from June 2013 soon. Sincerely, Kevin #132707 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:26 pm Subject: Re: Anattaa. Was: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Dear Htoo, Here is a part of your post I skipped when replying before - in a hurry then as now!: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." wrote: > Sarah: > > Are paramattha dhammas as referred to in these texts anything other than the khandhas (and nibbana) as referred to in the suttas? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Yes. <........> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: What else? ... > S: Is hardness now a khandha? An ayatana? A dhatu? A paramattha dhamma? If not, why not? > .. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Khandhaa, aayatana, dhaatu. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Why not a paramattha dhamma too? ... > >H: The Buddha did not say a word "paramattha dhamma". If this is the right word, very helpful word then the Buddha would have preached as "paramattha dhammas". > ... > S: Dhammas or paramattha dhammas, dhamma or abhidhamma - the same, all about seeing, visible object, bodily experience, hardness. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: paramattha dhamma means that each dhamma has its characteristic which cannot be changed. This is the nature of each khandha, each dhatu, each ayatana. The Teachings are so subtle, they are abhidhamma. What is abhidhamma? Kusala dhamma is dhamma, akusala dhamma is dhamma, abyakatha dhamma is dhamma.... just the realities in daily life now. > Htoo: > > So, you equalized all? > > Ven. Anuruddha described > > "Tattha(2) vuttaa(2) bhidhammatthaa(4) (2+2+4 = 8), > catudhaa(3) paramatthato(5) (3+5 = 8), > citta.m(2) cetasika.m(4) ruupa.m(2) (2+4+2 = 8), > nibaanaamii'ti(5) sabbatthaa(3) (5+3 = 8)." > > This gaathaa says: > > Tattha = out of these > vuttaa = being preached (out of these dhammas preached) > abhidhammatthaa = abhi + dhamma + attha > (great_in number) (essence) > catudhaa = four folds > paramatthato = parama.m + attha + to > (non-mistaken)+ meaning + (by means of) > sabbatthaa = by all means > > Ven. Anuruddhaa wrote as a summary on abhidhammaa. Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha is like a key to open abhidhamma texts. > > "Out of these dhammas there are citta, cetasika, ruupa, and nibbaana by means of unmistakable-meanings." ... S: Yes, this is what we all stress = dhammas/paramattha dhammas/abhidhamma - citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Paramattha dhammas/dhammas to be known now as we speak such as seeing and visible object. .... > Suttanta dhammas = dhammas(flowers) that are lined with a thread. > Abhidhamma = dhammas that preached by the Buddha are greater in number and greater in terms of method of delivery. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- S: No matter the method of delivery, we're referring here to "these dhammas that were preached by the Buddha" as you quote above. Metta Sarah p.s When I spoke to Han this morning we both mentioned how we appreciate your contributions and Pali expertise. ====== #132708 From: "kevinf596" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:29 pm Subject: 'The Bricklayer' kevinf596 Hi folks! Here is the relevant passage from Survey that I talked about in another thread with Sarah and which I promised to post: "The "Atthasĺliní" states (I, Book I, Part I, Ch I, Triplets in the Mĺtikĺ, 44) that akusala dhamma as well as kusala dhamma which are not of the eightfold Path (8)are leading to accumulation, to continuation of the cycle ofbirth and death. We read about akusala and kusala which are not of the Path: "...leading to accumulation" (ĺcayagĺmin)are "those states which go about severally, arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall." Whenever we are not aware of the characteristics of realities when they appear and we do not understand them as they are, no matter whether akusala dhamma or kusala dhamma presents itself, we accumulate and build up life after life, just as the bricklayer who piles up the bricks one by one until it is a wall. However, when sati is aware of the characteristics of realities which appear as they really are, that is the Path, that is dispersion (apĺcayagĺmin 9), because one does not build up dhammas which lead to accumulation, just as a man who tears up thebricks which the bricklayer has piled up. Are we at this moment like the man who knocksdown the bricks, or are we like the man who piles up the bricks?" (8) One may perform wholesome deeds without the development of the eightfold Path, without right understanding of nĺma and rúpa. Then there will be no eradication of defilements, no end to the cycle of birth and death. (9) This is the opposite of ĺcayagĺmin, accumulation. ___ Kevin #132709 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:34 pm Subject: Re: Off to Canada sarahprocter... Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > >S: As soon > as we introduce an idea about making sense of experience in conventional terms, > we forget about khandhas. > >P: But surely there must almost always be forgetting about the khandas due to accumulations think in conventional terms ... S: It's not a matter of the terms used or thought about, but the understanding of what is real now. Yes, I agree, there is always forgetting about khandhas, about realities and that's just why we need a lot of reminders from our good friends. ... > > Couldn't it be that when we are living our lives in paramattha terms we are forcing panna where it isn't ready to go. I know I find myself thinking things like "just dhammas rising and falling away, nothing to get upset about." That is using the Dhamma for comfort i the same way meditators do. (Well, not as grossly wrong.) ... S: Well, what was thought about has gone already. What about now? Only ever the reality now that can be known, no matter it's thinking, doubt, clinging or whatever else. .... >P: Do we really have the accumulations for patience that allows consideration of khandas to arise when it arises, without pushing to deepen our understading of the khandas? ... S: It doesn't matter at all - it's just thinking and speculation when one wonders about whether we have such accumulations etc - more clinging to the self and 'my accumulations' rather than understanding what appears now. Always lost in the ocean of concepts, but even at the time of being 'lost', there can be awareness and understanding of what is real. Metta Sarah ====== #132710 From: "jono.abbott" Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:58 pm Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. jono.abbott Hi Alex (and Phil) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hi Jon, all, > > >J:It's not me that would be right, it's the ancient commentators :-)) > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: Which commentators? Theravada, Sarvastivada, Mahayana all agreed on one point: that practice is important. > =============== J: Regarding, "practice is important", that's easy to say, but do you have a quote (from the Pali Canon) to illustrate and clarify? Unless we are discussing actual texts*, and how they are to be understood, our discussion can be nothing more that a "yes it is", "no it isn't" kind of conversation. *For Phil: Discussing with suitable trepidation, of course :-)) > =============== > A: VsM, a "magnum opus" of Theravada is all about practice, be it > dhutanga, or kammatthana. > =============== J: The topics you've mentioned here are found mainly in Part I (Siila) and Part II (Samadhi), but you haven't mentioned anything that would represent or summarise the contents of Part III (Panna). Yet is it Part III that makes up the bulk of the Vism. Sometimes I get the impression that people's interest in the Vism begins and ends with Part II :-)) > =============== > >J: It's not a question of ease or convenience. The only question >is, What exactly was the teaching of the Buddha? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: Hard work, perhaps to the point of tears, at eliminating akusala qualities. > =============== J: There's nothing to this effect in the Satipatthana Sutta. > =============== > > J: Did he teach that the development of awareness required the doing of >specific activities, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: Yes! And doing it, unfortunately, in seclusion. > =============== J: So unless one is doing certain specific activities, and doing them in seclusion, there's no possibility of awareness/insight development; is that your understanding? I don't think we can deduce any such general proposition from the teachings. > =============== > > J: Did he teach the selection of specific dhammas as object > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: Yes! VsM lists 40. The suttas also have many objects such as corpses in decay, bodyparts, bodily positions, breathing, kasinas, etc. > =============== J: But the kammatthaanas listed in Vism are, generally speaking, not dhammas but subjects/topics/concepts. As mentioned many times here already, understanding the difference between: (a) dhammas as object of awareness/insight development and (b) kammatthaana as subject of samatha contemplation, is crucial, and in fact is a necessary first step. Would you agree with the need to make this distinction? > =============== > > J: or did he teach the development of understanding of dhammas in >whatever posture or situation one is at any time? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > A: He recommended seclusion. > =============== J: But again, we are trying to identify those things that are prerequisites, rather than merely recommended options (if in fact there be such). > =============== > > J: Did he teach that samatha had to be developed first, > > A: Buddha wanted to teach his two SAMATHA masters first because they had little dust in their eyes. > =============== J: Yes, that's correct. And "little dust in their eyes" means well developed understanding of the vipassana kind. That understanding would have been developed in previous lifetimes, but not manifested during their lives as the teachers of the Bodhisatta, as it required hearing the Dhamma again. So the understanding that would have made them candidates for immediate enlightenment was not the understanding associated with the samatha they had attained and which they taught to the Bodhisatta. In any event, we have drifted away from the question under consideration: whether it was the teaching of the Buddha that samatha has to be developed first. Ans as I've mentioned to Rob E recently, it is not safe to deduce or assume fundamental points of the teachings such as this simply by reference to situations or circumstances that are mentioned in the suttas (such as the Buddha's initial thought to teach his new-found knowledge to his 2 former teachers). It is the words spoken by the Buddha to his listeners for them to consider that are the most reliable guide. Jon #132711 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:37 am Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > JK: Do you notice that it was the day that just Visakha chose to observe as Uposatha day. That why the Lord Baddha asked why she came in the middle of that day. Then the Lord Buddha explained in detail the right observation about Uposatha. Otherwise the Lord Buddha wouldn't have ask why Visakha came early. > > This fact shows that Uposatha day in the past was not fixed date like nowadays Uposatha day. > Are you serious? This is all you have to say? What about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being one day only? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day not being about specifically emulating monks? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being about only practicing the eight precepts and nothing else? You were wrong about so many things; made wild claims; and this is all you can come up with: The Buddha asked her why she came because Uposatha Day isn't a particular set day. Yeah, I'm sure that' why he asked her. I'm sure laypeople just showed up out of the blue on any day whatsoever and just wanted to hang out with the Buddha and the Sangha. I'm sure that went over real well!! I'm sure the Buddha wouldn't ask her that question out of courtesy, he was genuinely perplexed as to why she show up. Complete nonsense. Well, I was right- it would be absolutely pointless and a waste of my time to find suttas to show to you. I said you would deny the central meaning of any sutta I provided and I have been proven right. This will be my last post to you on this subject. Metta, James #132712 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:42 am Subject: Re: the khandhas are realities. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Thomas) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is: > > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality), > .... > > S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality? > > For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea? > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== > =================================== Sarah, there is the following: /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' Seeing this with right discernment, as it actually is, then avoiding the equanimity coming from multiplicity, dependent on multiplicity, he develops the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness, where sustenance/clinging for the baits of the world ceases without trace./ (From the Potaliya Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ And also the following: /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) With metta, Howard /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #132713 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:29 am Subject: Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening. truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >J: Regarding, "practice is important", that's easy to say, but do you >have a quote (from the Pali Canon) to illustrate and clarify? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've provided many of them. How many times should I quote satipatthana sutta or anapanasati sutta that explicitly talk about seclusion, and practice? >J:The topics you've mentioned here are found mainly in Part I (Siila) >and Part II (Samadhi), but you haven't mentioned anything that would >represent or summarise the contents of Part III (Panna). >Yet is it Part III that makes up the bulk of the Vism. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that we can dispense with part 1 and 2, and go strait to third part? The structure describes path quite well. At first one masters sila, then samadhi and only then, only after mastering sila and samadhi one can master panna. > > Sometimes I get the impression that people's interest in the Vism begins and ends with Part II :-)) > Or skip 2/3 of the book and go toward the 3rd :-)) Sometimes trying to jump to 3rd step prior to standing on 1st and 2nd can be bad... When you build a house you prepare the ground first. You can't start building a roof before you built a basement. >=============== > A: Hard work, perhaps to the point of tears, at eliminating akusala qualities. > > =============== > > J: There's nothing to this effect in the Satipatthana Sutta. > It is mentioned in anusota sutta for example. > > =============== > > > J: Did he teach that the development of awareness required the doing of >specific activities, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > A: Yes! And doing it, unfortunately, in seclusion. > > =============== > > J: So unless one is doing certain specific activities, and doing them in seclusion, there's no possibility of awareness/insight development; is that your understanding? >>>>>> It is NOT my understanding. It is said so in satipatthana sutta, anapanasati sutta and many others. VsM also talks quite a bit about suitable places for seclusion. >=============== > > > J: Did he teach the selection of specific dhammas as object > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > A: Yes! VsM lists 40. The suttas also have many objects such as corpses in decay, bodyparts, bodily positions, breathing, kasinas, etc. > > =============== > > J: But the kammatthaanas listed in Vism are, generally speaking, not dhammas but subjects/topics/concepts. > Who cares? You are playing with words here. VsM recommends those (whatever you call them) to do. > As mentioned many times here already, understanding the difference between: > (a) dhammas as object of awareness/insight development and > (b) kammatthaana as subject of samatha contemplation, > is crucial, and in fact is a necessary first step. Would you agree with the need to make this distinction? > B) Can also be objects for insight. If there was some problem with kamatthana, then they wouldn't be mentioned in suttas and VsM. >J: But again, we are trying to identify those things that are prerequisites, rather than merely recommended options (if in fact there be such). > Mastery of sila and samadhi is prerequisite for mastery of panna. > > =============== > > > J: Did he teach that samatha had to be developed first, > > > > A: Buddha wanted to teach his two SAMATHA masters first because they had little dust in their eyes. > > =============== > > J: Yes, that's correct. And "little dust in their eyes" means well >developed understanding of the vipassana kind. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those arupa jhana teachers developed vipassana? >In any event, we have drifted away from the question under >consideration: whether it was the teaching of the Buddha that samatha >has to be developed first. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For mastery of panna, yes. For getting PhD in Buddhist studies - no. Jon, I think with all the spins you are doing - you could be a great lawyer. With best wishes, Alex #132714 From: Maipenrai Dhammasaro Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:30 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Knowledge Not Shared By Disciples dhammasaro Good friend Sarah, et al 1. As it is a very short Sutta-pitaka; why not all of it? 2. Perhaps a short quote from good friend Dr. Han Tun: It may be like a primary school student cannot understand or appreciate the experience of a person with a Doctorate degree. I must know my own level. If I try to understand the finesse of every higher-level dhammas, while I am still a lowly worldling, it will be like conjecturing the unconjecturable, which may result only in madness and vexation, like the Buddha said in AN 4.77. ................................................................................\ ................................................................................\ .................................................. yours in the Dhamma-vinaya, Chuck <....> >C: May I suggest we peruse the Sutta-pitka referenced by good friend Dr. Han Tun? It is: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.077.than.html > Comments/discussion? ... S: Why don't you quote a paragraph or two from it and add some comments to let us know what is on your mind? <...> #132715 From: "jagkrit2012" Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:54 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James >James: Are you serious? This is all you have to say? JK: If you really look into Vinaya and Suttanta Tipitaka, you will see a lot of definitions of "Uposatha". It is not just one meaning about Uposatha day as you think. > James: ... What about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being one day only? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day not being about specifically emulating monks? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being about only practicing the eight precepts and nothing else? JK: I think you never read Dhamminka sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.14.irel.html The Lord Buddha gave his teaching about 8 precepts to laypeople and this is some part as follows: ---------------- "Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma). "He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world. "A disciple should avoid taking anything from anywhere knowing it (to belong to another). He should not steal nor incite another to steal. He should completely avoid theft. "A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife. "Having entered a royal court or a company of people he should not speak lies. He should not speak lies (himself) nor incite others to do so. He should completely avoid falsehood. "A layman who has chosen to practice this Dhamma should not indulge in the drinking of intoxicants. He should not drink them nor encourage others to do so; realizing that it leads to madness. Through intoxication foolish people perform evil deeds and cause other heedless people to do likewise. He should avoid intoxication, this occasion for demerit, which stupefies the mind, and is the pleasure of foolish people. Do not kill a living being; do not take what is not given; do not speak a lie; do not drink intoxicants; abstain from sexual intercourse; do not eat food at night, at the wrong time; do not wear flower-garlands nor use perfumes; use the ground as a bed or sleep on a mat. "This is called the eight-factored observance made known by the Awakened One who has reached the end of suffering. "With a gladdened mind observe the observance day (uposatha), complete with its eight factors, on the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighth days of the (lunar) fortnight and also the special holiday of the half month. In the morning, with a pure heart and a joyful mind, a wise man, after observing the uposatha, should distribute suitable food and drink to the community of bhikkhus. He should support his mother and father as his duty and engage in lawful trading. A layman who carries this out diligently goes to the devas called "Self-radiant." [7] -------------------- > James: You were wrong about so many things; JK: Sorry to make you think of me that way but please consider carefully the above sutta. ================== > James: .......made wild claims; and this is all you can come up with: The Buddha asked her why she came because Uposatha Day isn't a particular set day. Yeah, I'm sure that' why he asked her. I'm sure laypeople just showed up out of the blue on any day whatsoever and just wanted to hang out with the Buddha and the Sangha. I'm sure that went over real well!! I'm sure the Buddha wouldn't ask her that question out of courtesy, he was genuinely perplexed as to why she show up. Complete nonsense. JK: :_( >James: Well, I was right- it would be absolutely pointless and a waste of my time to find suttas to show to you. I said you would deny the central meaning of any sutta I provided and I have been proven right. JK: As far as I remember, you presented only one sutta Ken has posted about Uposatha day and the rest we discussed a lot about common sense. ===================== > James: This will be my last post to you on this subject. JK: Sorry our discussion ends up like this. But I learn a lot about our discussion on Uposatha day you've raised to be an example of laypeople would like to do as a monk did and how far it goes to think that they went to meditate at the temple on this day. I've, however, been thinking about 8 precepts where laypeople in past understand the benefit of observing them from time to time. I, myself, find in useful as well but no accumulation to observe all 8 but only 5. Thank you and Anumodhana Jagkrit #132716 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:58 pm Subject: Re: Saturday, English discussion, live. part 1. glenjohnann Dear Nina Wow! That's wonderful - to have a transcript of part of Saturday's discussion in Bkk - and so quickly! Anumodana and thank you very much. Achan is so skillful in describing the subtleness and depth of the understanding of dhammas. Because of conditions we are forgetful most of the time - even though we don't want to be. But not wanting to be forgetful is loba creeping in again and again. Right view is essential to the patience necessary for development of the understanding which can, when there are conditions, know the characteristics of dhammas now. Just reading Achan's words is such a good reminder of the nature of the path. I liked reading about "if one is not forgetful, what is seen?". Unfortunately the timing here is Canada is very difficult to listen to the discussions live. At least it was for Saturday's session (1 am here). If anyone knows of other times for the live feed, perhaps you can post it here - the timing may be better on other occasions. Thank you, Nina, and also those in Bkk who made it possible. Ann <. . .> #132717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Saturday, English discussion, live. part 1. nilovg Dear Ann, Op 26 aug 2013, om 05:58 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Unfortunately the timing here is Canada is very difficult to listen to the discussions live. At least it was for Saturday's session (1 am here). If anyone knows of other times for the live feed, perhaps you can post it here - the timing may be better on other occasions. ------ N: I am glad you find it useful. This is the link: http://www.dhammahome.com/live If you want English just press the English flag. Press the Thai flag for the Thai. At the bottom you find Youtube and then you can listen at ease. At least for the Thai. I do not know whether the English is on Youtube. Nina. #132718 From: "Ken H" Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:17 pm Subject: Re: the khandhas are realities. kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- > Sarah to Thomas: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality? > > For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea? >> > Howard: Sarah, there is the following: /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks.' <. . > (From the Potaliya Sutta) --- KH: Firstly, I would like to point out that this sutta is not about the reality or non-reality of dhammas. It is talking solely about sense desires. It the paragraph you have quoted, the sutta mentions seeing nothing after dreaming of desirable things. You seem to have mistaken that as evidence for the non-reality of dhammas. There are six paragraphs in this sutta in which sense desires desires are compared to where (1) "a butcher would throw a fleshless blood stained bone, devoid of any flesh, to a hungry dog," (2) "a vulture, a crow, or a hawk would snatch a piece of flesh and would fly away with it, another crow, hawk or vulture seeing it would, pursue it, follow it and snatch the piece of flesh," (3) "a man with a blazing grass torch would go against the wind, if that man does not give up that blazing grass torch wouldn't he burn his hand, or arm or any other limb," (4) "there is a pit of charcoal to the height of a man, free of smoke and flames, a man who likes pleasantness, wants to live comes along and two strong men take him by his hands and feet and drag him along to the pit of charcoal," (4) "a man in his dreams would see delightful monuments, forests, flat lands and ponds, when he wakes he would not see any of them," (5) "a man who had borrowed some ear-rings, and fashionable ornaments would deck himself in them and would go to the bazaar. People, seeing him would say, looks like a rich man. When the owners see him, they would take their belongings. Householder, wouldn't that man be better in his own appearance?" (6) "close to a village or hamlet, there is a stretch of dense forest, and in it, there is a tree full of fruits. A man in search of fruits coming to this tree, and not seeing any fallen on the ground, would climb it and eat as much as he liked. He would fill his sling with some of the fruits. Another man with a sharp dagger going in search of fruits, would come to this same tree and not seeing any fruits fallen, and not able to climb the tree, would cut down the tree. Householder, if the man who had climbed the tree had not come down quickly, wouldn't he die, or come to deathly unpleasantness breaking one or the other of his limbs?" In each of those six paragraphs the next sentence is: "In the same manner, the noble disciple reflects, The Blessed One had said that sensual desires are comparable to a bone (. . . a dream . . . a tree full of fruits). It brings much unpleasantness trouble and danger." Therefore, it is a sutta about how sense desires bring unpleasantness trouble and danger. There is absolutely nothing in it to suggest the non-reality of dhammas. The question is not being addressed. I hope you will see now that this sutta does not belong in your anti-paramattha armoury. :-) ----------- > H: And also the following: /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) ------------ KH: In message #113512 Sarah provides textual evidence to explain how this sutta is actually about the vipallasas (perversions of perception). Worldlings and their devas are happy with objects of perception while they last, but they are unhappy when they cease. The noble ones, on the other hand, (perversely) are happy when objects cease. Ken H #132719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-note from Thailand 2 (Aug 2013 with A.Sujin) nilovg Dear Sarah and Tadao, I like this reminder, we always forget. Tadao has a strong accumulation for Pali texts, and it is good to remember that it is not "me" but conditioned reality. Nina. Op 25 aug 2013, om 08:31 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > A.Sujin: "Whenever one says anything about citta, it's here and now and pa~n~naa can bring more understanding of it." > > "If there can be understanding of the moment of thinking or saying out that phrase, it's better." #132720 From: "Buddhatrue" Date: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:43 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, I really apologize for coming on so strong in this post. I really don't mean that. I think you are a very nice person. But I do find myself get furious when I see the Buddha's teachings twisted around into meanings that weren't intended or aren't beneficial to anyone. That makes me very, very angry and also very sad. Why? Because, especially now, the Buddha's teachings are the only beautiful thing we have in this world. Everything else is sh*t. When you destroy the Buddha's teachings that is the biggest crime of all....and the work of Mara. I will go ahead and respond one more time, but I am busy nowadays so I probably can't prolong this dialogue too much longer. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > JK: If you really look into Vinaya and Suttanta Tipitaka, you will see a lot of definitions of "Uposatha". It is not just one meaning about Uposatha day as you think. > James: I just showed you a sutta where the Buddha gave three definitions of the Uposahta Day. As far as I am concerned, that is all you have to consider. It doesn't matter what the far-flung texts of the Tipitaka have to say; you have to look first at the core of the Buddha's teachings found in the suttas. > > > James: ... What about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being one day only? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day not being about specifically emulating monks? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being about only practicing the eight precepts and nothing else? > > JK: I think you never read Dhamminka sutta. James: Of course I have read Dhamminka Sutta! I have read every sutta the Buddha taught, more than once. Please don't insult my intelligence or my dedication to the Dhamma. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.14.irel.html > > The Lord Buddha gave his teaching about 8 precepts to laypeople and this is some part as follows: > > ---------------- > > "Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma). > > "He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world. > > "A disciple should avoid taking anything from anywhere knowing it (to belong to another). He should not steal nor incite another to steal. He should completely avoid theft. > > "A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife. > > "Having entered a royal court or a company of people he should not speak lies. He should not speak lies (himself) nor incite others to do so. He should completely avoid falsehood. > > "A layman who has chosen to practice this Dhamma should not indulge in the drinking of intoxicants. He should not drink them nor encourage others to do so; realizing that it leads to madness. Through intoxication foolish people perform evil deeds and cause other heedless people to do likewise. He should avoid intoxication, this occasion for demerit, which stupefies the mind, and is the pleasure of foolish people. > > Do not kill a living being; > do not take what is not given; > do not speak a lie; > do not drink intoxicants; > abstain from sexual intercourse; > do not eat food at night, at the wrong time; > do not wear flower-garlands nor use perfumes; > use the ground as a bed or sleep on a mat. > > "This is called the eight-factored observance made known by the Awakened One who has reached the end of suffering. > > "With a gladdened mind observe the observance day (uposatha), complete with its eight factors, on the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighth days of the (lunar) fortnight and also the special holiday of the half month. In the morning, with a pure heart and a joyful mind, a wise man, after observing the uposatha, should distribute suitable food and drink to the community of bhikkhus. He should support his mother and father as his duty and engage in lawful trading. A layman who carries this out diligently goes to the devas called "Self-radiant." [7] > James: Yeah, and you are glossing over the last paragraph quoted above. The eight precepts are observed on Uposatha Days, which follow a lunar calendar (!!), and the five precepts are followed at all times. How much more direct proof does it have to take? You now have two suttas to prove the facts to you. Please, don't make me tired. > -------------------- > > > James: You were wrong about so many things; > > JK: Sorry to make you think of me that way but please consider carefully the above sutta. > James: I don't think of "any way about you". I think you are a nice guy or I wouldn't bother at all. But you are still wrong about this issue. And this issue is rather important to householders such as us. > > JK: As far as I remember, you presented only one sutta Ken has posted about Uposatha day and the rest we discussed a lot about common sense. > James: Yes, we did discuss a lot of things. First it was about Jhana, Metta, and Monk Bad Behavior. Then, Jhana was dropped because of advanced Pali; Metta was dropped because of members' sensitivities; and Monk Bad Behavior was dropped because it is rather boring and pointless. Then the discussion became about Uposatha Days and what is expected of laypeople...a worthwhile topic in my opinion. (Using 'common sense' was just a minor comment, not a major topic of discussion). > > JK: Sorry our discussion ends up like this. James: Yeah, maybe I shouldn't do that. It is rather as*hole of me to do it like that. I tend to run away from difficult situations in my life...because I have had a rather hard life. But that isn't a good behavior to continue and I need to work on that. Sorry Jagkrit for my disrespectful behavior in this regard. But I learn a lot about our discussion on Uposatha day you've raised to be an example of laypeople would like to do as a monk did and how far it goes to think that they went to meditate at the temple on this day. > James: Thank you so much! That is all I would like for you to do is consider how it might be for other people other than yourself. Being in Thailand you are really lucky to most. > I've, however, been thinking about 8 precepts where laypeople in past understand the benefit of observing them from time to time. I, myself, find in useful as well but no accumulation to observe all 8 but only 5. > James: Yes, and that is what the Buddha taught: five precepts for all householders and 8 precepts when they observe Uposathat Days. I don't think that is really controversial, but one never knows. > Thank you and Anumodhana > > Jagkrit > Metta and Love, James #132721 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:21 am Subject: Pa~n~naa without samaadhi of Sukin (1) htoonaing... Sukin wrote: Hello Htoo, Sukin: Thanks for the detail. Leaving out the "doing" part for now. Can you explain to me why and how any dhamma, including the hindrances, can become the object of lower levels of panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why? Because they are dhammas. How? In the way that when they are recognized by a vipassanaa-javana-cittas they can well be the object of vipassanaa or satipa.t.thaana. Lower or higher level is not important. But when in higher level niivara.na rarely arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The hindrances are kamachanda, vyapada, thina-middha, udhacca-kukucca and vicikiccha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 41 alphabets in Paa.li or Magadhii language. All 41 have their separate pronunciations. When 2 or 3 or 4 alphabet are grouped together they become a pada. When padas are arranged in organized manner they become a sentence. 1. kaamacchanda niivara.na (kaama + chanda = kaamacchanda) ch takes dve-bhaavo and becomes cch. So it is kaamacchanda in Paa.li. It is not kamachanda but kaamacchanda. 2. byaapaada niivara.na It is not vyapada. If it is vyapada (vya + pada). Pada means foot. 3. thina-middha (right) 4. uddhacca-kukkucca It is not "udhacca". It is not "kukucca" 5. vicikicchaa (right) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As I understand it, these are hindrances to concentration because they make it difficult for the same object to be experienced again and again by successive cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Abhidhammatthasa`ngaha 7.8 " Chaniivara.naani kaamacchanda niivara.nam, byaapaada niivara.nam, thinamiddha niivara.nam, uddhaccakukkucca niivara.nam, vicikicchaa niivara.nam, avijjaa niivara.nam ". There are 6 niivara.na according to abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. The first five are hinderence to jhaana. All six are hindrance to magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But when it comes to the arising of panna of the Eightfold Path, this is not how things work, namely, there is no repeated experience of one object leading to upaccara samadhi involved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is wrong assumption. At least upacaara-samaadhi is required even if it is not appanaa-samaadhi. I am not talking on object. I am talking on the power of concentration. It must be upacaara-samaadhi-equivalent or appanaa-samaadhi-equivalent. Otherwise NEP (true one) can never arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Instead, panna arises as a result of past arising such that when developed to a high degree it becomes indriya and bala and therefore correspondingly easier to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All the same. Samaadhi also arise and when becomes high it becomes samaadhindriya, samaadhibala, samaadhi-sambojjha`nga, and sammaa-sammaadhi magga`nga. Without samaadhi (jhaana) pa~n~naa cannot arise in true sense. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132722 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:51 am Subject: Pa~n~naa without samaadhi of Sukin (2) htoonaing... Sukin wrote: Can you please explain to me, how the hindrances act as hindrances to the arising and development of samma ditthi? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Niivara.nas are akusala. Akusala will not lead to sammaa-di.t.thi. When niivara.nas come they proliferate and there will be more and more akusala. These akusala may lead to pariyu.t.thaana to viitikkama kilesaa and then duccarita will arise. Duccarita break siila and then leads to wrong path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: After you do this, can you also tell me where "Jahna practice" fits into this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Jhaana cittas are ruupa-kusala-jhaana-cittas and aruupa-kusala-jhaana cittas. They are tihetuka cittas. They do have pa~n~nindriya cetasika as their component. When wild mind can well be put under control of jhaana it is very easy to lead higher citta like anuttara cittas and vimutta cittas. Before entering jhaana there is contemplation. At emerging jhaana there also is contemplation. Contemplation of what. Contemplation on dhammas. What dhammas? Arising dhammas and arisen dhammas. As jhaana-cittas have just arisen these jhaana cittas and jhaana cetasikas are contemplated. There is no control there is on one there is subject there is no puggala but arising of kaamaavacara-mahaakusala-javana-cittas cognizing on jhaana cittas, jhaana cetasikas and then the general makers of these dhammas called anicca, dukkha, anatta become evident. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I mean, how a citta (with accompanying cetasikas) which functions to suppress the hindrances with the aim to maintain concentration, influences the next citta (with accompanying cetasikas) which performs a totally different function, namely understanding the nature of a nama or rupa dhamma? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are tracking theoretical dreaming and not so practical. Pa~n~na suppress niivara.na. Pa~n~naa maintain samaadhi. Pa~n~naa influences the next cittas. Pa~n~na see(realize or parivajjhati) naama or ruupa and it changes its name as pa.tivedha. This only happen at the time of magga kha.na. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Panna is sankhara, therefore accumulates with each arsing. It is illogical and strange then, to suggest that the hindrances are not hindrances to lower levels of panna, but are so to higher levels. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The angle of view might cover your eyes not to see things as they really are. For the beginners there always are akusala mixed with kusala in the process of vipassanaa. If akusalas are not known then akusala will not be eradicated. But when samaadhi has to enter the power of indriya, bala, bojjha`nga and magga`nga then niivara.nas do hinder arising of magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Now we can talk about "doing" again. Is the *doing* of meditation any more or less a "doing" than say, me typing this message or you reading it? If so, by virtue of which particular dhamma or set of dhammas this is? What exactly is "development" and how is that a *doing*? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are actions. Verbs represent 'actions'. There are 1. verb-to-be 2. verb-to-have 3. verb-to-do Typing is *doing*. It is not 'is/be' it is not 'have'. But it is *doing*. Reading is not 'being' not 'having'. It is *doing* Developing exactly is "growing in power, growing in accumulation, growing in everything." "Yaadisa.m vapate biija.m, taadisa.m harate phala.m" With Metta, Htoo Naing #132723 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:10 am Subject: Re: the khandhas are realities. thomaslaw03 Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" wrote: > > > Nina: Thank you, Thomas, for giving these Pali terms, I had not met them before. I was actually thinking of su~n~nattaa. > > Sarah just gave a useful quote in another post: > > > > > >"Once the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One and asked him: > > Venerable Sir, it is said: Empty is the world, empty is the world. …. > > >"Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book IV [54]Section 35: On The 6 Senses. Empty is the World: 85."> > > ------- > > > > >T: The text (SN 35.85) indicates one of the meanings for the term su~n~nattaa, i.e., not-self, empty of self. (See The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 93-4). > > > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is: > > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality), > .... > > S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality? > > For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea? > > Metta > > Sarah > ===== According to the suttas (such as SN 35. 197 and SN 22.95 ), all the bodily and mental phenomena (khandhas/aayatana), including ideas, are "just without reality/void (rittaka), just vain (tucchaka/just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka), and just lacking essence (asaaraka)", because they are "phenomena (= dhammas) arisen by causal condition". (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 54, 92-3, 154). Regards, Thomas #132724 From: "philip" Date: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:11 am Subject: Re: Saturday, English discussion, live. part 1. philofillet Dear Nina, group I join Ann in thanking you for the transcriptions(I added them to tge growng collection in the files section.) I chose one section: T.A.: Everyone knows that there are many people now, but what is real? What is real in the absolute sense? Everyone sees, but what is seen is not known. Thinking follows upon the seeing. The Buddha taught about all realities as they are. We like to understand what is taken for people and things. What was born? Everyone can say: a dog, a cat, a human. Is this table born? No. But a human being is born. Why do we say that? For everyone realities arise and fall away in splitseconds. But it is unknown. The Buddha had attained enlightenment and knew everything as it is. Because of thinking of shape and form there is the idea of people. Without absolute realities there is nothing. We think that "we see and hear. Seeing is only a reality that has conditions to arise. Seeing is not hearing or thinking. Seeing only sees visible object. It cannot arise at the same time as hearing. Is there I or a self who sees, hears or thinks? There are only different realities that are conditioned. Sound is a reality; when it appears it can be studied. Studying Dhamma is not reading from page to page. It is time to study realities when they appear, they are not just in the book. It is not theoretical understanding, there has to be understanding of this very moment. (End of pasage) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "glenjohnann" wrote: #132725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:33 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: the khandhas are realities. nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 27 aug 2013, om 02:10 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > According to the suttas (such as SN 35. 197 and SN 22.95 ), all the bodily and mental phenomena (khandhas/aayatana), including ideas, are "just without reality/void (rittaka), just vain (tucchaka/just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka), and just lacking essence (asaaraka)", because they are "phenomena (= dhammas) arisen by causal condition". (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 54, 92-3, 154). ------ N: You made me think. Without reality, what does it mean? We can be misled by the English, you know. Phenomena: what arises by conditions appears. Like sound now. It is not imagination, what do you think yourself? Sound is not a concept we can merely think of, it can be heard, now. Do you need anything more real than that? I find it helpful that Kh Sujin speaks about attending to characteristics without words, without thinking. That is the way to understand what is real and what is imagination. I wonder what your own thoughts are about what is real and what is not real. Nina. #132726 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:15 am Subject: 40 Bhaavanaas htoonaing... Dear Dhamma Friends, This may be useful for contemplation. There are 40 bhaavanaas. 1). " Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa aniccaa." These 5 khandhaas are impermanent. Which khandhaas, which aggregates, which constellations? They are 1. ruupakkhandhaa (aggregate of ruupas/forms/materials) 2. vedanaakkhandhaa (aggregate of feeling/sensing) 3. sa~n~naakkhandhaa (aggregate of perception/memories/cognitions) 4. sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa (aggregate of formations/fabrications) 5. vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa(aggregate of consciousness/knowings) They are fleeting. They do not last even for a second, even for a split second, just a moment, called cittakkha.na. At the of seeing/hearing/smelling/tasting/touching(that is not at the later time when all about an object is realized and understood) there are these 5 khandhaas. 1. seeing 1. ruupakkhandhaa (ruupa_forms/shapes/colours & cakkhu-pasaada) 2. vedanaakkhandhaa(feeling _on-forms.._of equanimity_upekkhaa) 3. sa~n~naakkhandhaa(congnizing on forms/shapes/colours) 4. sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa(contact,volition,ekaggataa, attention, life) 5. vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa(consciousness to form...etc) 2. hearing 1. ruupakkhandhaa (sounds & ear-sense-base_sota-pasaada) 3. smelling 1. ruupakkhandhaa (smell & nose-sense-base_ghaana-pasaada) 4. tasting 1. ruupakkhandhaa (tastes & tongue-sense-base_jivhaa-pasaada) 5. touching 1. ruupakkhandhaa (tangible objects & any of body part_kaaya-pasaada) These fleeting dhammas (5 khandhaas) do not last long. They pass away immediately after arising. So they are impermanent. They are not permanent. ------------------------------------------------ 2). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa adhuvaa." These 5 khandhaas are non-unbreakable. 3). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa asaaraa". These 5 khandhaas are essenceless. 4). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa calaa." These 5 khandhaas are moved off. 5). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa palokadhammaa." These 5 khandhaas destructive-natured. 6). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa vipari.naama-dhammaa." These 5 khandhaas are changing-natured. 7). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa mara.na-dhammaa." These 5 khandhaas are death-natured." 8). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa vibhava-dhammaa." These 5 khandhaas are non-existence-natured." 9). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa sa`nkhataa." These 5 khandhaas are well-conditioned. 10)."Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa pabha`nguno." These 5 khandhaas are quiveringly-broken into non-existence from existence. 11) .. 12) .. ... ... 39) .. 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. May you all be well and happy, With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing #132727 From: "philip" Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:18 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas philofillet Dear Htoo Thank you for the interesting list. I guess most people here are familiar with these items but they are new for me. They are aspects of khandas that are useful for contemplation? What is the source in tipitika? Phil #132728 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: the khandhas are realities. thomaslaw03 Dear Nina (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Thomas, > Op 27 aug 2013, om 02:10 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > > > According to the suttas (such as SN 35. 197 and SN 22.95 ), all the bodily and mental phenomena (khandhas/aayatana), including ideas, are "just without reality/void (rittaka), just vain (tucchaka/just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka), and just lacking essence (asaaraka)", because they are "phenomena (= dhammas) arisen by causal condition". (Cf. The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 54, 92-3, 154). > ------ > N: You made me think. Without reality, what does it mean? We can be misled by the English, you know. > > Phenomena: what arises by conditions appears. Like sound now. It is not imagination, what do you think yourself? Sound is not a concept we can merely think of, it can be heard, now. Do you need anything more real than that? > I find it helpful that Kh Sujin speaks about attending to characteristics without words, without thinking. That is the way to understand what is real and what is imagination. > I wonder what your own thoughts are about what is real and what is not real. > Nina. > ------- I consider what is real (reality) and what is not real (or existence and non-existence) should follow closely this principal teaching of the Buddha (according to the suttas): pa.ticca-samuppaada ('dependent origination' or 'arising by causal condition'), for full knowing and seeing dukkha, its arising, its cessing, and its path leading the cessing of dukkha. Pa.ticca-samuppaada is so vital to the Buddha Dhamma as a whole that the Buddha is quoted as saying that one who sees the Dhamma sees Pa.ticca-samuppaada. The teaching of pa.ticca-samuppaada is frequently presented (in the SN suttas) in the following short formula: This existing, that comes to exist (imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti); from the arising of this, that arises (imassuppaadaa idam uppajjati); this not existing, that does not come to exist (imasmim asati ida.m no hoti); from the ceasing of this, that ceases (imassa nirodhaa ida.m nirujjhati). (Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 156-7) So, bodily and mental phenomena arisen by causal condition and ceased by causal condition (not by own being). They are compounded, impermanent, empty of 'any' permanent entity (existence and non-existence). Thomas #132729 From: "Ken H" Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:50 pm Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Htoo, I look forward to your answer to Phil's question. Meanwhile: ---- <. . .> > H: 10)."Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa pabha`nguno." These 5 khandhaas are quiveringly-broken into non-existence from existence. 11) .. 12) .. ... ... 39) .. 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. ---- KH: I assume your purpose in selecting some of the 40 points was to demonstrate that conditioned dhammas were ultimately non-existent (not ultimately real). Do you agree, however, that all of those points could be interpreted in the opposite way? What is your reason for preferring the "non-reality" interpretation? What benefit is there in seeing khandhas as not ultimately real? You will notice that Thomas and the other meditators refuse to answer that question. They just quote/misquote the texts, as you have done. Why is that? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo > > Thank you for the interesting list. I guess most people here are familiar with these items but they are new for me. They are aspects of khandas that are useful for contemplation? > > What is the source in tipitika? > > Phil > #132730 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:34 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: the khandhas are realities. nilovg Dear Thomas, Op 28 aug 2013, om 03:43 heeft thomaslaw03 het volgende geschreven: > This existing, that comes to exist (imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti); from the arising of this, that arises (imassuppaadaa idam uppajjati); this not existing, that does not come to exist (imasmim asati ida.m no hoti); from the ceasing of this, that ceases (imassa nirodhaa ida.m nirujjhati). (Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 156-7) > > So, bodily and mental phenomena arisen by causal condition and ceased by causal condition (not by own being). They are compounded, impermanent, empty of 'any' permanent entity (existence and non-existence). ------- N: I agree with all you write here. As Htoo quoted: <8). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa vibhava-dhammaa." These 5 khandhaas are non-existence-natured."> They do not exist, because they fall away immediately. ----- Nina. #132731 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:41 pm Subject: e-note from Thailand 3 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Nina & friends, About to leave the place we're staying at in Kaeng Krachan (outside the resort, because all accomodation was full there) and head back for the afternoon discussion. Very lively discussions with Tadao, who has been bringing up many good topics, Kevin, Sukin, Betty, Jon, Jagkrit and myself. The two main themes have probably been: 1. Ditthi..... we're even joking about leaving with ditthi certificates. Now we understand the path is difficult. When panna develops and understands more, it will realise it's more and more difficult... 2. Asavas (taints), oghas (floods) and yogas (yokes). The same cetasikas - clinging to sensuous objects (kaamasava), clinging to becoming (bhavasava), ditthi (wrong view) and avijja (ignorance), but different degrees and aspects. Asavas so subtle that they don't appear, but arise so quickly after seeing, hearing and so on. Oghas - swept away by attachment and so on. This morning, examples of ditthi-ogha - "should I?", "shall I?"...... Yogas, yoking to samsara all the time. Like the cattle yoked to the plough, imprisoned or unable to move away because of these yokes. Other bits in brief - 3.Azita's qu on metta and friendliness. "A word hinders understanding, like 'friend'...." Ready to help anytime and in many things..... More understanding leads to more metta, otherwise it's trying to have it. Understand that everyone is just citta, cetasika and rupa.... conditions metta instead of dosa. Without paramattha dhammas, cannot be idea of being. 4. Kamma Useless to tell what kamma is if no understanding of realities. 5. Silabbataparamasa Example of trying to know a dhamma or "better to" understand this or that. 6. Rob E's qu about other kinds of kusala as support for right understanding. If we try to have sila and samadhi and think it's panna developing, go wrong. Kusala supports only when there is right understanding as dhammas. If we believe other kusala must be developed first, wrong understanding. 7. Reading Tipitaka without understanding is useless. Studying words, hinders the devlopment of understanding. Yoga (yoke) again. Panna, right understanding, will lead to kusala at any moment. Oops, van waiting....more later! Metta Sarah ===== #132732 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:57 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] e-note from Thailand 3 with A.Sujin nilovg Dear Sarah and Jagkrit, Thank you for the notes. Op 28 aug 2013, om 10:41 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > This morning, examples of ditthi-ogha - "should I?", "shall I?"...... Yogas, yoking to samsara all the time. Like the cattle yoked to the plough, imprisoned or unable to move away because of these yokes. ------- N: Could you elaborate? Is there wrong view when thinking each time: shall I? -------- > > S: 5. Silabbataparamasa > Example of trying to know a dhamma or "better to" understand this or that. ------ N: Again, I would like an example. It depends on the citta. ----- Nina. #132733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:39 pm Subject: in Ayuthaya. nilovg Dear Jagkrit and friends, part of a transcription of Ayauthaya 3. Ayuthaya 3. When there is no understanding the object that is experienced is usually an object of attachment. When touching this, is there hardness? And this? Everything touched is hardness. What you like to get is only hardness. People fight for hardness, countries fight for hardness. Mountains, rivers, countries must have only hardness. The world cannot exist or arise without hardness. Everything that is seen, touched, desired, that is only for having hardness. There is no one in it, there is no one here at all. There is hardness in this room. The visible objects and the combination with hardness are different. There are different shapes and forms, different combinations with hardness. We should understand what use it is of having just hardness. The meaning of the earth kasina is that all is earth, not more than earth. By understanding this there will be gradually detachment from only earth. Letting go of earth will condition calm. Hardness should be known as not self, as a reality. If there is self nothing can be eradicated at all. What is the Buddha’s teaching about mindfulness, sati? Whatever arises is conditioned and then it falls away instantly. This is his teaching. What is mindfulness? Understanding what? Now, now, just now. We do not talk about the past or the future, that cannot be known. But what can be known is now, at this very moment. Is there anything at this moment? This is the teaching of the Buddha. If the Buddha is one’s refuge, there is only one way: studying his teaching carefully, until there is one’s own right understanding of whatever appears. ******** Nina. #132734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:49 pm Subject: A lump of foam. nilovg Hi Howard, you quoted a sutta about a lump of foam, and that nibbaana is the only dhama that is real. I did not keep your post, so I do not quote literally. But now I just read a recent post by Sarah with quotes from the commentary which I find very. clear. ---- Co: Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion." S: Each khandha is so fleeting when it arises. They lead to all kinds of illusions of atta, but in reality, just transient dhammas arising and falling away, no atta to be found at all. ------- S: In the passage below, it is referring to rupas and how any rupa at all is like a lump of foam in that it is void of atta, insubstantial, it cannot be grasped because it breaks up immediately. "Bhikkhus, suppose that this river Ganges was carrying along a great lump of foam. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a lump of foam? So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?" As the commentary notes, form, i.e rupa, "lacks any substance that is permanent, stable, a self." It is "pulverized in the mouth of death." ------ N: The khandhas are impermanent and this cannot be said of nibbaana. But this does not make the khandhas that arise and fall away unreal; they just lack any substance of permanence. ------- Nina. #132735 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:13 am Subject: Re: A lump of foam. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah & all) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > you quoted a sutta about a lump of foam, and that nibbaana is the only dhama that is real. I did not keep your post, so I do not quote literally. But now I just read a recent post by Sarah with quotes from the commentary which I find very. clear. > ---- > > Co: Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion." > > S: Each khandha is so fleeting when it arises. They lead to all kinds of illusions of atta, but in reality, just transient dhammas arising and falling away, no atta to be found at all. > ------- > > S: In the passage below, it is referring to rupas and how any rupa at all is like a lump of foam in that it is void of atta, insubstantial, it cannot be grasped because it breaks up immediately. > > "Bhikkhus, suppose that this river Ganges was carrying along a great lump of foam. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a lump of foam? So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?" > > As the commentary notes, form, i.e rupa, "lacks any substance that is permanent, stable, a self." It is "pulverized in the mouth of death." > > ------ > > N: The khandhas are impermanent and this cannot be said of nibbaana. But this does not make the khandhas that arise and fall away unreal; they just lack any substance of permanence. > ------- > Nina. ======================================= Thank you for this, Nina. With regard to the following: ________________ S: In the passage below, it is referring to rupas and how any rupa at all is like a lump of foam in that it is void of atta, insubstantial, it cannot be grasped because it breaks up immediately. "Bhikkhus, suppose that this river Ganges was carrying along a great lump of foam. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a lump of foam? So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?" As the commentary notes, form, i.e rupa, "lacks any substance that is permanent, stable, a self." It is "pulverized in the mouth of death." ____________________ I find the sutta material quite clear on its own, without the commentary, which to me adds stuff not stated or implied in the sutta. Insubstantial, Nina, means "fully void of substance." So the sutta is clear to me on its own. Substance is essential nature/essence. What lacks substance is mere appearance. With metta, Howard Experience Only /In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself./ (From the Bahiya Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #132736 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:01 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas htoonaing... Dear Phil, Thanks for your reply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phil wrote: Dear Htoo Thank you for the interesting list. I guess most people here are familiar with these items but they are new for me. They are aspects of khandas that are useful for contemplation? What is the source in tipitika? Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know exactly. Saariputta preached this and it was confirmed by the Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132737 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:09 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas htoonaing... Dear Ken H, I did not select anything. I presented first 10 of 40. The first 10 are for anicca, the middle 25 are for dukkha and the last 5 are for anatta. The list itself is not long. But explanation would be long. I did not have enough time. So I presented piece by piece. My plan is to start with 10 of anicca. Then next post is 5 of anatta. This will be followed by 5 after 5 of 25 dukkhaanupassanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I look forward to your answer to Phil's question. > > Meanwhile: > > ---- > <. . .> > > H: > 10)."Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa pabha`nguno." > > These 5 khandhaas are quiveringly-broken into non-existence from existence. > > 11) .. > > 12) .. > > ... ... > > 39) .. > > 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." > > These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. ---- KH: I assume your purpose in selecting some of the 40 points was to demonstrate that conditioned dhammas were ultimately non-existent (not ultimately real). Do you agree, however, that all of those points could be interpreted in the opposite way? > > What is your reason for preferring the "non-reality" interpretation? What benefit is there in seeing khandhas as not ultimately real? > > You will notice that Thomas and the other meditators refuse to answer that question. They just quote/misquote the texts, as you have done. Why is that? > > Ken H > <. . .> #132738 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:35 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas htoonaing... Dear Phil, Thanks for your reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil wrote: Dear Htoo Thank you for the interesting list. I guess most people here are familiar with these items but they are new for me. They are aspects of khandas that are useful for contemplation? What is the source in tipitika? Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know exactly. Saariputta preached this and it was confirmed by the Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Phil, U Han Tun helped me with these 40 bhaavana. I checked what he quoted. The source is from Kuddaka Nikaaya, Pa.tisambhidaamagga, pa~n~na vagga, vipassanaakathaa (37). With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I took it from a .tiikaa called "Bhavanaadiipanii". #132739 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing and Phil,  It is in The Path of Discrimination (Pa.tisambhidaamagga), chapter XXIX Treatise on Insight, on pages 401 to 404.  Pa.tisambhidaamagga belongs to Khuddaka Nikaya, The Collection of Little Texts. It is briefly described as follows in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/index.html#ps   12. Patisambhidamagga — Path of Discrimination An analysis of Abhidhamma concepts. Description courtesy of Hugo G, Tep Sastri, and Han Tun: The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) is the richest discourse by Arahant Sariputta Thera on the Buddha's Teachings in the questions-and-answers format. A.K. Warder succinctly described the most important feature of this great work by saying : "it expounds the way or path of 'discrimination' in its various aspects and tries to show exactly how understanding takes place in a practical sense, not simply in theory."  The book consists of thirty treatises. They span the various kinds of knowledges (associated with learning, virtue, concentration, dependent origination, comprehension, rise & fall of phenomena, dissolution, appearance of terror, equanimity about formations, and so on), views, breathing meditation, the five faculties, liberation, action (kamma), paths, truths, lovingkindness, powers, voidness, foundations of mindfulness, insight, and so on.   with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:01 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Dear Phil, Thanks for your reply. ---------------------------------------------------------- Phil wrote: Dear Htoo Thank you for the interesting list. I guess most people here are familiar with these items but they are new for me. They are aspects of khandas that are useful for contemplation? What is the source in tipitika? Phil ---------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know exactly. Saariputta preached this and it was confirmed by the Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132740 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:48 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas philofillet Dear Htoo Thank you for the explanation of the source Phil #132741 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear Ken H (and U Htoo Naing),  As U Htoo Naing has written, the 40 bhaavanaas are divided into the following three groups.  A. For aniccaanupassanaa (10)  (1) aniccato (impermanent) (9) palokato (disintegrating) (14) calato (fickle) (15) pabhanguto (perishable) (16) addhuvato (un-enduring) (25) vipari.naama-dhammato (subject to change) (26) asaarakato (having no core) (29) vibhavato (due to be annihilated) (31) sankhatato (as formed) (36) mara.na-dhammato (connected with the idea of death)  B. For dukkhaanupassanaa (25)  (2) dukkhato (painful) (3) rogato (disease) (4) ga.n.dato (boil) (5) sallato (dart) (6) aghato (calamity) (7) aabaadhato (affliction) (10) itito (plague) (11) upaddavato (disaster) (12) bhayato (terror) (13) upasaggato (menace) (17) ataa.nato (no protection) (18) ale.nato (no shelter) (19) asara.nato (no refuge) (24) aadiinavato (danger) (27) aghamuulato (the root of calamity) (28) vadhakato (murderous) (30) saasavato (subject to cankers) (32) maaraamisato (Maara's bait) (33) jaati-dhammato (connected with the idea of birth) (34) jaraa-dhammato (connected with the idea of ageing) (35) byaadhi-dhammato (connected with the idea of illness) (37) soka-dhammato (connected with the idea of sorrow) (38) parideva-dhammato (connected with the idea of lamentation) (39) upaayaasa-dhammato (connected with the idea of despair) (40) sankilesika-dhammato (connected with the idea of defilement)  C. For anattaanupassanaa (5)  (8) parato (alien) (20) rittato (empty) (21) tucchato (vain) (22) su~n~nato (void) (23) anattato (not self)  with metta and respect, Han  ________________________________ From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:09 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Dear Ken H, I did not select anything. I presented first 10 of 40. The first 10 are for anicca, the middle 25 are for dukkha and the last 5 are for anatta. The list itself is not long. But explanation would be long. I did not have enough time. So I presented piece by piece. My plan is to start with 10 of anicca. Then next post is 5 of anatta. This will be followed by 5 after 5 of 25 dukkhaanupassanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------- <., > #132742 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:54 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] e-note from Thailand 3 with A.Sujin philofillet Dear Nina > > > > S: 5. Silabbataparamasa > > Example of trying to know a dhamma or "better to" understand this or that. > ------ > N: Again, I would like an example. It depends on the citta. > ----- Do you mean you think there can be kusala chanda and other wholesome factors that "try to know a dhamma?" That is the only case in which "it depends on the citta" could matter, I think. But when we say someone "tries to know a dhamma" or seeks conditions that are better for understanding, we can rule out kusala factors, it is all about greed and wrong view. We have to be honest in our own studies, for example when we listen to the discussions thinking it will help us to know dhammas as we listen rather than helping to provide conditions for knowing dhammas at some moment beyond control. Yes, it is always about *now*, but there can be wanting understanding *now* when we listen, sneaking in. Well, I'm sure it is there a lot of the time. As we know, only a very few rare openings in the dome of lobha... Phil #132743 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:50 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] e-note from Thailand 3 with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Nina, 5 mins before breakfast only and also almost out of power on my computer - Yesterday afternoon, we had a really lovely, lively discussion in K.Duangduen's garden. (The day before it was raining, so we had to sit inside). Most of the discussion was between Tadao and A.Sujin on the general topic of sila and satipatthana and whether the monks' rules and 5 precepts for lay people are a foundation and so on. In particular, Tadao was talking about his accumulations to avoid company and drinkers in Japan and thought this was helpful - I thought of you when he said he doesn't like daily chit-chat and there was a lot of discussion about metta.... no time to go into more detail as everyone has just joined me! On the points about ditthi, as it happened the evening before I'd been having a massage and was listening on my ipod to Hua Hin 2013 at the same time. I'd heard you ask about whether there was ditthi most the time and Ajahn had replied "no, only when it appears." Most the day, it doesn't. I mentioned this comment in the light of what she had been saying about ditthi-asava and so on and she clarified that we can have no idea how often ditthi-asava arises because it's so subtle - all that can be known is the ditthi when it appears which is not anything like as frequently as ordinary lobha. (Just like phassa is arising every moment, but doesn't appear). All very interesting! Everyone sends best wishes.... This morning, brekkie and then discussion at the place where we're staying, then back to Bkk. Early Sat morning off to Vietnam... Great to see Han posting.... look forward to properly catching up in Bkk... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------- > N: Could you elaborate? Is there wrong view when thinking each time: shall I? > -------- S: "I", "I", "I'.... ... > > > > S: 5. Silabbataparamasa > > Example of trying to know a dhamma or "better to" understand this or that. > ------ > N: Again, I would like an example. It depends on the citta. > ----- S: Yes, but the point was whenever there is a "trying to know" or an idea that it is better to do or think some way to develop sati, panna, metta or anything else.....silabbataparamasa. Metta Sarah ====== #132744 From: "philip" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:34 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: the khandhas are realities. philofillet Dear Nina (and Htoo) > ------- > N: I agree with all you write here. > As Htoo quoted: <8). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa vibhava-dhammaa." > > These 5 khandhaas are non-existence-natured."> > They do not exist, because they fall away immediately. > ----- I am confused by this. Paramattha dhammas (realities) arise, and have existence in a moment, don't they? We are only aware of the nimitta, but that is not to say that khandas don't exist (momentarily) is it? Arent there like three sub-moments (?) - arising, presence and fallng away of each dhamma. Isn't the "presence" sub-moment (?) in fact momentary existence? Phil p.s I know this sort of thing has been discussed for ages at DSG, but I simply take your word, Nina, for what is to be intellectually understood as correct. #132745 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:17 pm Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Htoo and Han, --------- <. . .> > Htoo: I did not select anything. I presented first 10 of 40. The first 10 are for anicca, the middle 25 are for dukkha and the last 5 are for anatta. --------- KH: Sorry, yes, I see now that you included number 40 in full just as a way of setting out the list. It was only by coincidence that number 40 was a controversial one. It was one that may have been interpreted as saying "khandhas are not paramattha dhammas." I will never tire of arguing this point with Mahayana-leaning DSG members. The only thing I am tired of is their unwillingness to discuss it! Did the Buddha say that nothing was absolutely real (that there were no paramattha dhammas)? If he did say that, where could we possibly go from there? What could we talk about in our Dhamma discussions? Nothingness? Ken H #132746 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear Ken H,  I do not understand your question fully. Perhaps, U Htoo Naing may have a better understanding of what you want and be able to tell you. ---------- KH: Sorry, yes, I see now that you included number 40 in full just as a way of setting out the list. It was only by coincidence that number 40 was a controversial one.  Han: Why is the number 40 controversial? ---------- Ken H: It was one that may have been interpreted as saying "khandhas are not paramattha dhammas."  Han: I do not see the connection between No. 40 and the saying "khandhas are not paramattha dhammas." ---------- Ken H: Did the Buddha say that nothing was absolutely real (that there were no paramattha dhammas)? If he did say that, where could we possibly go from there? What could we talk about in our Dhamma discussions? Nothingness?  Han: I have never heard or read anything about the Buddha saying nothing was absolutely real or there were no paramattha dhammas.  In this connection, I would like to present a passage from A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Ajahn Sujin (pages 41-43).  Quote: [The dhammas that arise are sa~nkhaara dhammas, conditioned dhammas. We know that there are citta, cetasika and ruupa, because they arise, and they arise because of the appropriate conditions. Hence, citta, cetasika and ruupa are sa~nkhaara dhammas.  The Buddha's teaching is complete as to the letter and meaning. But, he gave further explanations of Dhamma subjects, whose meaning people might misunderstand. He added words that described the meaning, making it even clearer. People might misunderstand that dhammas, which arise because of conditions, are sa~nkhaara dhamma; they might mistakenly believe that dhammas that arise could continue to exist. Hence, the Buddha taught that sa~nkhaara dhammas are also sa~nkhata dhammas, dhammas that have already been conditioned. Sa~nkhata dhammas are dhammas that have arisen and then fall away.4 The Buddha used the term sa~nkhata dhamma, as well as the term sa~nkhaara dhamma, in order to explain that a dhamma arises because there are conditions for its arising and that when the conditions fall away, that dhamma, which has arisen because of conditions, also must fall away. Sa~nkhata dhamma is the dhamma that has arisen and then falls away. Hence, sa~nkhaara dhamma, the dhamma that is compounded by conditioning factors, is also sa~nkhata dhamma. *The paramattha dhammas, which are citta, cetasika and ruupa, are sa~nkhaara dhamma as well as sa~nkhata dhamma*.  (1) Sabbe sa~nkhaaraa aniccaa = All conditioned dhammas are impermanent (2) Sabbe sa~nkhaara dukkha = All conditioned dhammas are dukkha (3) Sabbe dhammaa anattaa = All dhammas are non-self.] End Quote.  --------------------  Han: It is clear from the above that the five aggregates are paramattha dhammas consisting of citta, cetasika and ruupa. The paramattha dhammas, which are citta, cetasika and ruupa, are sa~nkhaara dhamma as well as sa~nkhata dhamma. All of them are subject to anicca, dukkha, and anatta.  The Pa.tisambhidaamagga states that the five aggregates are anicca in 10 ways, they are dukkha in 25 ways and they are anatta in 5 ways. These are for the meditator to contemplate on, if they wish to do so.  with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: Ken H To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:17 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Hi Htoo and Han, --------- <. . .> > Htoo: I did not select anything. I presented first 10 of 40. The first 10 are for anicca, the middle 25 are for dukkha and the last 5 are for anatta. --------- KH: Sorry, yes, I see now that you included number 40 in full just as a way of setting out the list. It was only by coincidence that number 40 was a controversial one. It was one that may have been interpreted as saying "khandhas are not paramattha dhammas." I will never tire of arguing this point with Mahayana-leaning DSG members. The only thing I am tired of is their unwillingness to discuss it! Did the Buddha say that nothing was absolutely real (that there were no paramattha dhammas)? If he did say that, where could we possibly go from there? What could we talk about in our Dhamma discussions? Nothingness? Ken H #132747 From: Jagkrit Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. jagkrit2012 Dear James I've problem accessing to my Yahoo DSG account. I'm so sorry for delay response to your post. I hope the problem will be fixed soon and I can write to you more. For now thank you very much for your kind understanding about our discussion in our posts. I've no any intention to interpret The Lord Buddha's teaching in the way to dilute his teaching. On the other hand, I highly respect Buddha, dhamma and Sanga as my refuge to understand realities and leading us out of samsara. I, therefore, will learn dhamma with most careful consideration which sometimes seems a bit of unusual to others. Sorry about that. Discussing more with you soon Thank and Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Aug 26, 2013, at 18:43, "Buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jagkrit, > > I really apologize for coming on so strong in this post. I really don't mean that. I think you are a very nice person. But I do find myself get furious when I see the Buddha's teachings twisted around into meanings that weren't intended or aren't beneficial to anyone. That makes me very, very angry and also very sad. Why? Because, especially now, the Buddha's teachings are the only beautiful thing we have in this world. Everything else is sh*t. When you destroy the Buddha's teachings that is the biggest crime of all....and the work of Mara. I will go ahead and respond one more time, but I am busy nowadays so I probably can't prolong this dialogue too much longer. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote: > > > > > JK: If you really look into Vinaya and Suttanta Tipitaka, you will see a lot of definitions of "Uposatha". It is not just one meaning about Uposatha day as you think. > > > > James: I just showed you a sutta where the Buddha gave three definitions of the Uposahta Day. As far as I am concerned, that is all you have to consider. It doesn't matter what the far-flung texts of the Tipitaka have to say; you have to look first at the core of the Buddha's teachings found in the suttas. > > > > > > James: ... What about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being one day only? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day not being about specifically emulating monks? How about how you were wrong about Uposatha Day being about only practicing the eight precepts and nothing else? > > > > JK: I think you never read Dhamminka sutta. > > James: Of course I have read Dhamminka Sutta! I have read every sutta the Buddha taught, more than once. Please don't insult my intelligence or my dedication to the Dhamma. > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.14.irel.html > > > > The Lord Buddha gave his teaching about 8 precepts to laypeople and this is some part as follows: > > > > ---------------- > > > > "Now I will tell you the layman's duty. Following it a lay-disciple would be virtuous; for it is not possible for one occupied with the household life to realize the complete bhikkhu practice (dhamma). > > > > "He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak, in the world. > > > > "A disciple should avoid taking anything from anywhere knowing it (to belong to another). He should not steal nor incite another to steal. He should completely avoid theft. > > > > "A wise man should avoid unchastity as (he would avoid falling into) a pit of glowing charcoal. If unable to lead a celibate life, he should not go to another's wife. > > > > "Having entered a royal court or a company of people he should not speak lies. He should not speak lies (himself) nor incite others to do so. He should completely avoid falsehood. > > > > "A layman who has chosen to practice this Dhamma should not indulge in the drinking of intoxicants. He should not drink them nor encourage others to do so; realizing that it leads to madness. Through intoxication foolish people perform evil deeds and cause other heedless people to do likewise. He should avoid intoxication, this occasion for demerit, which stupefies the mind, and is the pleasure of foolish people. > > > > Do not kill a living being; > > do not take what is not given; > > do not speak a lie; > > do not drink intoxicants; > > abstain from sexual intercourse; > > do not eat food at night, at the wrong time; > > do not wear flower-garlands nor use perfumes; > > use the ground as a bed or sleep on a mat. > > > > "This is called the eight-factored observance made known by the Awakened One who has reached the end of suffering. > > > > "With a gladdened mind observe the observance day (uposatha), complete with its eight factors, on the fourteenth, fifteenth and eighth days of the (lunar) fortnight and also the special holiday of the half month. In the morning, with a pure heart and a joyful mind, a wise man, after observing the uposatha, should distribute suitable food and drink to the community of bhikkhus. He should support his mother and father as his duty and engage in lawful trading. A layman who carries this out diligently goes to the devas called "Self-radiant." [7] > > > > James: Yeah, and you are glossing over the last paragraph quoted above. The eight precepts are observed on Uposatha Days, which follow a lunar calendar (!!), and the five precepts are followed at all times. How much more direct proof does it have to take? You now have two suttas to prove the facts to you. Please, don't make me tired. > > > -------------------- > > > > > James: You were wrong about so many things; > > > > JK: Sorry to make you think of me that way but please consider carefully the above sutta. > > > > James: I don't think of "any way about you". I think you are a nice guy or I wouldn't bother at all. But you are still wrong about this issue. And this issue is rather important to householders such as us. > > > > > JK: As far as I remember, you presented only one sutta Ken has posted about Uposatha day and the rest we discussed a lot about common sense. > > > > James: Yes, we did discuss a lot of things. First it was about Jhana, Metta, and Monk Bad Behavior. Then, Jhana was dropped because of advanced Pali; Metta was dropped because of members' sensitivities; and Monk Bad Behavior was dropped because it is rather boring and pointless. Then the discussion became about Uposatha Days and what is expected of laypeople...a worthwhile topic in my opinion. (Using 'common sense' was just a minor comment, not a major topic of discussion). > > > > > JK: Sorry our discussion ends up like this. > > James: Yeah, maybe I shouldn't do that. It is rather as*hole of me to do it like that. I tend to run away from difficult situations in my life...because I have had a rather hard life. But that isn't a good behavior to continue and I need to work on that. Sorry Jagkrit for my disrespectful behavior in this regard. > > But I learn a lot about our discussion on Uposatha day you've raised to be an example of laypeople would like to do as a monk did and how far it goes to think that they went to meditate at the temple on this day. > > > > James: Thank you so much! That is all I would like for you to do is consider how it might be for other people other than yourself. Being in Thailand you are really lucky to most. > > > I've, however, been thinking about 8 precepts where laypeople in past understand the benefit of observing them from time to time. I, myself, find in useful as well but no accumulation to observe all 8 but only 5. > > > > James: Yes, and that is what the Buddha taught: five precepts for all householders and 8 precepts when they observe Uposathat Days. I don't think that is really controversial, but one never knows. > > > Thank you and Anumodhana > > > > Jagkrit > > > > Metta and Love, > James > > #132748 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] e-note from Thailand 3 with A.Sujin nilovg Dear Sarah, your enotes are lively and lovely. Op 29 aug 2013, om 02:50 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > N: Could you elaborate? Is there wrong view when thinking each time: shall I? > > -------- > > S: "I", "I", "I'.... ------ N: Very good! -------- > ... > > > > > > S: 5. Silabbataparamasa > > > Example of trying to know a dhamma or "better to" understand this or that. > > ------ > > N: Again, I would like an example. It depends on the citta. > > ----- > S: Yes, but the point was whenever there is a "trying to know" or an idea that it is better to do or think some way to develop sati, panna, metta or anything else.....silabbataparamasa. ------- N: Every time when "doing" something. I got it. Thank you, Nina. #132749 From: "Ken H" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Dear Han, Thank you for your reply. --- > H: I do not understand your question fully. Perhaps, U Htoo Naing may have a better understanding of what you want and be able to tell you. --- KH: It's a long story, Han. Recently we had a new member, Tony, who argued that dhammas existed only in the mind. He said it was a matter of common sense, and when people couldn't agree he left the group in exasperation. Tony was joined by another new member, Thomas, who is still with us to some extent. Thomas insists that the early Buddhist texts show dhammas as being empty of existence and not ultimately real. This is apparently in accordance with later Mahayana texts, and Thomas's point (I assume) is that the Theravada is some kind of interim false teaching. This is an old argumant at DSG, of course: Dieter and Howard, for example, insist that Dependent Origination is about conditions without being about conditioned dhammas. Htoo tends to agree with them to some extent. He points to the fact that the term `paramattha dhamma' is not found in the suttas, and he infers that the Buddha did not describe dhammas as realities. To someone like me, this creates an impasse. I can't see how the Dhamma can be constructively discussed until the question of `concepts and realities' has been resolved. I see our discussions going round and round in circles, lost on an ocean of concepts. We need ultimate reality! On the broader scale I see Buddhism becoming just another silly religion for weak people to cling to. This is because anatta has been watered down to be something that applies to concepts. As we all know, concepts are not ultimately real, so where does that leave anatta? Anyway, that was the long story. And then Htoo produced a list of contemplations ending in: --- > 11) .. > > 12) .. > > ... ... > > 39) .. > > 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." > > These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. --- KH: I wondered why Htoo had left out 11 to 39 and just presented 40: "khandhas are void of essence." I jumped to the conclusion that it was part of his discussion with Sarah, in which is arguing that the Buddha did not teach ultimate reality. But I was wrong: Htoo was just showing us where the list ended. :-) Ken H #132750 From: "dsgmods" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:28 pm Subject: Yahoo Groups changes dsgmods Hi Jagkrit, All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jagkrit wrote: > > Dear James > > I've problem accessing to my Yahoo DSG account. I'm so sorry for delay response to your post. I hope the problem will be fixed soon and I can write to you more. It seems that Yahoo is trying out a new format for Groups, and some of you may find you are being used as a guinea pig! Unfortunately Yahoo has not given us any information about what's happening, but we are doing our best (with pt's help) to find out what we can, and will keep you all informed. Appreciate your patience in the meantime. Jon and Sarah PS As a workaround, Jon had to set up a new Yahoo ID. PPS Any questions or comments, please send off-list to Jon, Sarah or pt #132751 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear Ken H,  Thank you very much for your clarification. I understand the situation now. I agree with your comments.  with metta and respect, Han  ________________________________ From: Ken H To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:21 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Dear Han, Thank you for your reply. --- > H: I do not understand your question fully. Perhaps, U Htoo Naing may have a better understanding of what you want and be able to tell you. --- KH: It's a long story, Han. Recently we had a new member, Tony, who argued that dhammas existed only in the mind. He said it was a matter of common sense, and when people couldn't agree he left the group in exasperation. Tony was joined by another new member, Thomas, who is still with us to some extent. Thomas insists that the early Buddhist texts show dhammas as being empty of existence and not ultimately real. This is apparently in accordance with later Mahayana texts, and Thomas's point (I assume) is that the Theravada is some kind of interim false teaching. This is an old argumant at DSG, of course: Dieter and Howard, for example, insist that Dependent Origination is about conditions without being about conditioned dhammas. Htoo tends to agree with them to some extent. He points to the fact that the term `paramattha dhamma' is not found in the suttas, and he infers that the Buddha did not describe dhammas as realities. To someone like me, this creates an impasse. I can't see how the Dhamma can be constructively discussed until the question of `concepts and realities' has been resolved. I see our discussions going round and round in circles, lost on an ocean of concepts. We need ultimate reality! On the broader scale I see Buddhism becoming just another silly religion for weak people to cling to. This is because anatta has been watered down to be something that applies to concepts. As we all know, concepts are not ultimately real, so where does that leave anatta? Anyway, that was the long story. And then Htoo produced a list of contemplations ending in: --- > 11) .. > > 12) .. > > ... ... > > 39) .. > > 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." > > These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. --- KH: I wondered why Htoo had left out 11 to 39 and just presented 40: "khandhas are void of essence." I jumped to the conclusion that it was part of his discussion with Sarah, in which is arguing that the Buddha did not teach ultimate reality. But I was wrong: Htoo was just showing us where the list ended. :-) Ken H #132752 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas htoonaing... Dear Ken H, U Han Tun and all, Thanks, Ken H for your reply to U Han Tun.I am not a Mahaayanist. I am a Theravadan. I am a inborn Theravadan. I do not hold a particular view very firmly. I see things as usual. But I try to see things from different points of view. Once Howard (upasaka-Howard) remarked me that 'I sometimes regurgitate and sometimes do well in discussions wihtout any textual support'. I think I was assumed wrong by Sarah, Sukin, and some more members of DSG. I tried to look for what was wrong. I think in this post of '40 Bhavanaas' you jumped to conclusion in connection with recent discussions regarding 'wording'. But in this post my intention is just to discuss on anicca, dukkha, and anatta. In Myanmar there are many dhamma books on 40 bhaavanaas. I had not known the source even though I have read many books on 40 bhaavanaas. Wording ends with 'to'. EXamples: Aniccato, dukkhato, anattato, adhuvato, calato, etc. So Myanmar people talk that 40 'to'(pronounced _taw/tau). U Han Tun has a good knowledge on texts, on dhammas, and on development of 'siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa'. When I post some pieces of dhamma he responsed and revealed the source. At this time he pointed out that these 40 bhaavanaas are from Pa.tisambhidaamagga Paa.li. It is in Kuddaka Nikaaya. Then I explored in Kuddaka Nikaaya. I have a CD on Tipi.taka. I also have a CD on photos of stone slabs (729) at the foot of Mandalay Mountain in Mandalay City. Stone slabs are all Tipi.taka. The CD was developed by a Venerable monk. The Stone Slabs are records of 5th Buddhists' Council and pure texts of Tipi.taka. Stone slabs are in Myanmar fonts. If someone can, it can be changed into Roman characters by seeing word by word and letter by letter as original Maagadhii language does not have written characters. S.N. Goenka developed as CD on "Cha.t.thasa.mghayanaa Tipi.tka" or "Tipi.taka arised from 6th Buddhists' Council". I also have a CD (sound track) on that 6th Buddhists' Council. Visajjana or answerer, who performed the function of "Ven. Aananda_cousin of the Buddha in the Buddha time" was Baddanta Vicittasaaraabhiva.msa. Shortly this Sayadaw name was 'Sayadaw Vicitta'. He could recite 16000 pages by heart. Unlike other 12 so far Tipi.takadhara (who can recite all suttanta, vinaya texts, abhidhamma texts by heart) Ven. Sayadaw Vicitta knew each and every letter in these 16000 pages. He knew page numbers, line numbers, word numbers in these texts. And he understood all the meanings in these Paa.li texts. So he was called "tipitakadhara"(who can recite 3 pitakas in Paa.li by heart) and "tipi.taka kovidha"(who can understand all the meanings in Paa.li texts. In Myanmar there have been 13 Tipi.takadharas. Guinness Records officially described Sayadaw's name that he could recite 16000 pages by heart. Sayadaw had a good mindfulness. I do not think he would say anything wrong. In CD on 6th Buddhists' Council both Questioner (Pucchaka) and Answerer (Visajjana) described that 4 Nikaayas. We, Myanmar, all accept that there are 5 Nikaayas. But 4 Nikaayas are very very pure in nature and all are "Buddha vacana" "Buddha's words". The 5th one is Kuddaka Nikaaya. Originally there were 15 texts. And Myanmar agree and also monks at 6th Council all agreed to preserve another 4 texts into Kuddaka Nikaaya. Kuddaka means 'small'. 4 Nikaayas are major texts. No one, no one, no one amends or adds or substracts these 4 texts of 4 Nikaayas. Sayadaw was very mindul. He would have not said any slip-tongue according to his nature. I just discussed with Sarah for 'wording' only. "Catudhaa paramatthato" is in the 3rd verse of abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. In Nikaaya this does not appear. I did not say about "reality". I did not say "exist" or "not exist" regarding reality. But you described me as if I taked on that. Myanmar dhamma teachers all talked about 'paramattha' or 'paramat' in short. Myanmar talk 'pannat' and 'paramat'. The most important is to realize dhamma. What was the intention of the Buddha. "Vimutti". Liberation. Nibbaana. Wording is not important even though without it there will not be any understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: But I was wrong: Htoo was just showing us where the list ended. :-) Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for this message. As you can work out, yes I presented first 10 and showed the list as 40 and the end is "su~n~nato". This does not have connection with any other members' post. Thanks again for your clear and beautiful smile. With respect, Htoo Naing #132753 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups changes ptaus1 Hi all, > It seems that Yahoo is trying out a new format for Groups, and some of you may find you are being used as a guinea pig! Yes, it seems Yahoo is trying to implement a more innovative interface. It seems groups, moderators and users are selected randomly, switched to the new format (dubbed 'Neo') without warning and not given choice to switch back to the old format (dubbed 'Classic'). It also seems that some are then switched back to the old format just as randomly. It seems unknown if this will be a temporary or permanent implementation. My account hasn't been switched to the new format, so I don't really know what's going on other than the chatter on Yahoo-related sites. For more information and solutions regarding the new format, here is a wiki created by some moderators of various Yahoo groups (so that's not Yahoo staff, but just people who happen to run a Yahoo group, like Jon and Sarah): http://yahoogroupedia.pbworks.com/w/page/68466246/Yahoo%20Groups%20Neo You can also give Yahoo a piece of your mind here: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups Best wishes pt #132754 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing,  While waiting for the explanations on the 40 bhaavanaas, I wish to request you one thing. The translation of Pa.tisambhidaamagga by Venerable Bhikkhu ~Naa.namoli is sometimes not clear. For example, there is the following passage in Vipassanaakathaa (where the 40 bhaavanaas are mentioned). I do not understand the translation. I will be grateful if you would kindly explain to me, please.  "So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ka~nci sa"nkhaara.m niccato samanupassanto anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato bhavissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati; anulomikaaya khantiyaa asamannaagato sammattaniyaama.m okkamissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati; sammattaniyaama.m anokkamamaano sotaapattiphala.m vaa sakadaagaamiphala.m vaa anaagaamiphala.m vaa arahatta.m vaa sacchikarissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati.  2. 'Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees any formation as permanent it is not possible that he shall make a choice in conformity [with actuality], and without making a choice in conformity [with actuality] it is not possible that he shall enter upon the certainty of rightness, and without entering upon the certainty of rightness it is not possible that he shall realize the fruit of stream-entry or the fruit of once-return or the fruit of non-return or the fruit of arahantship.  Han: Especially, I do not understand what the Translator meant by "making a choice in conformity [with actuality]" and "entering upon the certainty of rightness,"  Thank you very much.   with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:10 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Dear Ken H, U Han Tun and all, Thanks, Ken H for your reply to U Han Tun.I am not a Mahaayanist. I am a Theravadan. I am a inborn Theravadan. I do not hold a particular view very firmly. I see things as usual. But I try to see things from different points of view. Once Howard (upasaka-Howard) remarked me that 'I sometimes regurgitate and sometimes do well in discussions wihtout any textual support'. I think I was assumed wrong by Sarah, Sukin, and some more members of DSG. I tried to look for what was wrong. I think in this post of '40 Bhavanaas' you jumped to conclusion in connection with recent discussions regarding 'wording'. But in this post my intention is just to discuss on anicca, dukkha, and anatta. In Myanmar there are many dhamma books on 40 bhaavanaas. I had not known the source even though I have read many books on 40 bhaavanaas. Wording ends with 'to'. EXamples: Aniccato, dukkhato, anattato, adhuvato, calato, etc. So Myanmar people talk that 40 'to'(pronounced _taw/tau). U Han Tun has a good knowledge on texts, on dhammas, and on development of 'siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa'. When I post some pieces of dhamma he responsed and revealed the source. At this time he pointed out that these 40 bhaavanaas are from Pa.tisambhidaamagga Paa.li. It is in Kuddaka Nikaaya. Then I explored in Kuddaka Nikaaya. I have a CD on Tipi.taka. I also have a CD on photos of stone slabs (729) at the foot of Mandalay Mountain in Mandalay City. Stone slabs are all Tipi.taka. The CD was developed by a Venerable monk. The Stone Slabs are records of 5th Buddhists' Council and pure texts of Tipi.taka. Stone slabs are in Myanmar fonts. If someone can, it can be changed into Roman characters by seeing word by word and letter by letter as original Maagadhii language does not have written characters. S.N. Goenka developed as CD on "Cha.t.thasa.mghayanaa Tipi.tka" or "Tipi.taka arised from 6th Buddhists' Council". I also have a CD (sound track) on that 6th Buddhists' Council. Visajjana or answerer, who performed the function of "Ven. Aananda_cousin of the Buddha in the Buddha time" was Baddanta Vicittasaaraabhiva.msa. Shortly this Sayadaw name was 'Sayadaw Vicitta'. He could recite 16000 pages by heart. Unlike other 12 so far Tipi.takadhara (who can recite all suttanta, vinaya texts, abhidhamma texts by heart) Ven. Sayadaw Vicitta knew each and every letter in these 16000 pages. He knew page numbers, line numbers, word numbers in these texts. And he understood all the meanings in these Paa.li texts. So he was called "tipitakadhara"(who can recite 3 pitakas in Paa.li by heart) and "tipi.taka kovidha"(who can understand all the meanings in Paa.li texts. In Myanmar there have been 13 Tipi.takadharas. Guinness Records officially described Sayadaw's name that he could recite 16000 pages by heart. Sayadaw had a good mindfulness. I do not think he would say anything wrong. In CD on 6th Buddhists' Council both Questioner (Pucchaka) and Answerer (Visajjana) described that 4 Nikaayas. We, Myanmar, all accept that there are 5 Nikaayas. But 4 Nikaayas are very very pure in nature and all are "Buddha vacana" "Buddha's words". The 5th one is Kuddaka Nikaaya. Originally there were 15 texts. And Myanmar agree and also monks at 6th Council all agreed to preserve another 4 texts into Kuddaka Nikaaya. Kuddaka means 'small'. 4 Nikaayas are major texts. No one, no one, no one amends or adds or substracts these 4 texts of 4 Nikaayas. Sayadaw was very mindul. He would have not said any slip-tongue according to his nature. I just discussed with Sarah for 'wording' only. "Catudhaa paramatthato" is in the 3rd verse of abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. In Nikaaya this does not appear. I did not say about "reality". I did not say "exist" or "not exist" regarding reality. But you described me as if I taked on that. Myanmar dhamma teachers all talked about 'paramattha' or 'paramat' in short. Myanmar talk 'pannat' and 'paramat'. The most important is to realize dhamma. What was the intention of the Buddha. "Vimutti". Liberation. Nibbaana. Wording is not important even though without it there will not be any understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------- Ken H: But I was wrong: Htoo was just showing us where the list ended. :-) Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for this message. As you can work out, yes I presented first 10 and showed the list as 40 and the end is "su~n~nato". This does not have connection with any other members' post. Thanks again for your clear and beautiful smile. With respect, Htoo Naing #132755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:49 pm Subject: audio Bgk and KK June 13 nilovg Dear Sarah, I downloaded these but I could not listen to them on my iTune, I tried to copy them there. Nina. #132756 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:50 pm Subject: audio Bgk and KK June 13 nilovg Dear Sarah, I copied again and it worked. Nina. #132757 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:48 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas htoonaing... Dear U Htoo Naing,  While waiting for the explanations on the 40 bhaavanaas, I wish to request you one thing. The translation of Pa.tisambhidaamagga by Venerable Bhikkhu ~Naa.namoli is sometimes not clear. For example, there is the following passage in Vipassanaakathaa (where the 40 bhaavanaas are mentioned). I do not understand the translation. I will be grateful if you would kindly explain to me, please.  "So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ka~nci sa"nkhaara.m niccato samanupassanto anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato bhavissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati; anulomikaaya khantiyaa asamannaagato sammattaniyaama.m okkamissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati; sammattaniyaama.m anokkamamaano sotaapattiphala.m vaa sakadaagaamiphala.m vaa anaagaamiphala.m vaa arahatta.m vaa sacchikarissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati.  2. 'Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees any formation as permanent it is not possible that he shall make a choice in conformity [with actuality], and without making a choice in conformity [with actuality] it is not possible that he shall enter upon the certainty of rightness, and without entering upon the certainty of rightness it is not possible that he shall realize the fruit of stream-entry or the fruit of once-return or the fruit of non-return or the fruit of arahantship.  Han: Especially, I do not understand what the Translator meant by "making a choice in conformity [with actuality]" and "entering upon the certainty of rightness,"  Thank you very much.   with metta and respect, Han ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear U Han Tun and those who like bhaavanaa, I will quote the 2nd paragraph instead of 1st paragraph. Vipassana kathaa: "Bhagavaa etada'vo ca__". paragraph 1. paragraph 2. "So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbasa`nkhaare aniccato samanupassanto anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato bhavissatii'ti. .Thaana meta.m vijjati. Anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato sammattaniyaama.m okkamissatii'ti. .Thaana meta.m vijjati. Sammattaniyaama.m okkamamaano sotaapattiphala.m vaa sakadaagaamiphala.m vaa anaagaamiphala.m vaa arahatta.m vaa sacchikarissatii'ti. .Thaana meta.m vijjati." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: O! Monks!(Bhikkhave!) " So bhikkhu bhavissatii'ti". So = he/ someone, so bhikkhu = some bhikkhu/ a bhikkhu bhavissati = will be/will do iti = like this sabba = all/ everything sa`nkhaare = to sa`nkhaara ( 5 khandhaas ) sabba sa`nkhaare = to all dhammas(sa`nkhaara dhammas_5 khandhaas) aniccato samanupassanto = anicca + to / sa.m anupassanto anupassati = see again and again, contemplate again and again sa.m = well A bhikkhu see sa`nkhaaras again and again as anicca (impermanence). anulomikaaya = anulomika + aaya = by means of appropriacy khantiyaa = khanti + yaa anulomikaaya khantiyaa (by means of anulomika khanti) samannaagato = sa.m + anu + aagata = accomplish .Thaana = cause (reason) meta.m = eta.m = one vijjati = exist sammattaniyaama.m = sammaa + tta + niyaama = rightness-hood okkamati = ava + kamati = come into eixtsence okkamissati = will come into existence sacchikaroti = sa (saha) + akkhi (eye) + karoti (do) = do seeing in front of eyes. sabbe sa`nkhaare --> aniccato samanupassanto --> anulomika khanti --> sammattaniyaama.m --> phala.m (one of 4 lokuttara vipaaka) If anyone of all sa`nkhaara-dhammas is seen as permanence there will not be appropriate endurance (~naa.na). Then there will not be rightness-hood (no sammaa/ so none of 8 sammaa or NEP). If no NEP then no liberation. If sa`nkhaara-dhammas (5 khandhaas) are seen as impermanence (anicca) there will be appropriate ~naa.na and if there is appropriate ~naa.na there will be rightness-hood (sammaas/ so there will be 8 sammaas or NEP or N8P). If there is N8P or NEP bhikkhu will see fruition of stream-enterer or once-returner or non-returner or arahat. So both paragraph have the same meaning in the pariyaaya of byaatireka (method of reverse). That is If yogii does not see anicca he will not see fruition. If yogii does see anicca he will see fruition. In this vipassanakathaa (speech of special-contemplation) the main fact is seeing 'anicca' on sa`nkhaara-dhammas (5 khandhaas). This fleeting dhamma, if seen, the work is almost done or done. If not seen the work is still to be done. What is that work? It is the work that the Buddha wanted satta done. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132758 From: upasaka@aol.com Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:23 am Subject: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Htoo & Han) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote: > > Hi Htoo and Han, > > --------- > <. . .> > > Htoo: I did not select anything. I presented first 10 of 40. The first 10 are for anicca, the middle 25 are for dukkha and the last 5 are for anatta. > --------- > > KH: Sorry, yes, I see now that you included number 40 in full just as a way of setting out the list. It was only by coincidence that number 40 was a controversial one. It was one that may have been interpreted as saying "khandhas are not paramattha dhammas." > > I will never tire of arguing this point with Mahayana-leaning DSG members. The only thing I am tired of is their unwillingness to discuss it! > > Did the Buddha say that nothing was absolutely real (that there were no paramattha dhammas)? ===================================== Well, the Buddha DID say the following: /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and /He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta ) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ and especially /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance./ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependence /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) > > If he did say that, where could we possibly go from there? What could we talk about in our Dhamma discussions? Nothingness? > > Ken H > #132759 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing,  Thank you very much. The entire translation is excellent! Especially, I appreciate the following translation of difficult passages.  The first stumbling block for me is "anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato." You explain it very well. "Accomplish by means of appropriate ~naa.na i.e. anuloma-~naa.na." In Pa.tisambhidaamagga, the Translator made a foot-note saying that "klhanti"means "choice." But I like your interpretation better. Encouraged by your translation, I look at the PTS Dictionary. There, on page 232, I find "anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagata"translated as "being of gentle and forbearing disposition." In A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi "anuloma-~naa.na" is translated as "knowledge of conformity." (page 347). Dr Mehm Tin Mon, in The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, translated it as "the knowledge of adaptation to the Path." (page 392, 1995 edition)  Therefore, to accomplish the knowledge of conformity or the knowledge of adaptation to the Path, one must have a gentle and forbearing disposition or "khanti."  --------------------  Han: The next step is I take up your "Accomplish by means of appropriate ~naa.na i.e. anuloma-~naa.na."  By means of appropriate ~naa.na what does one accomplish? One (anupassati) sees again and again, contemplates again and again the sa"nkhaara-dhammas (5 khandhaas) as impermanence (anicca) with the appropriate ~naa.na.  And if one sees and contemplates like that what happens? There will be rightness-hood("sammattaniyaama.m okkamissati"). Again, you have explained this phrase (my second stumbling block) very well.  The rest is easy.  Oh, one thing. You wrote "So both paragraphs have the same meaning in the pariyaaya of byaatireka." The "pariyaaya" is an interesting word. We, Myanmar, know it as "pariye."  When you have time, please explain more about "pariyaaya." Even the Buddha uses this method quite often.  with metta, respect, and deepest appreciation, Han ________________________________ From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:48 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Dear U Htoo Naing,  While waiting for the explanations on the 40 bhaavanaas, I wish to request you one thing. The translation of Pa.tisambhidaamagga by Venerable Bhikkhu ~Naa.namoli is sometimes not clear. For example, there is the following passage in Vipassanaakathaa (where the 40 bhaavanaas are mentioned). I do not understand the translation. I will be grateful if you would kindly explain to me, please.  "So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ka~nci sa"nkhaara.m niccato samanupassanto anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato bhavissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati; anulomikaaya khantiyaa asamannaagato sammattaniyaama.m okkamissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati; sammattaniyaama.m anokkamamaano sotaapattiphala.m vaa sakadaagaamiphala.m vaa anaagaamiphala.m vaa arahatta.m vaa sacchikarissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati.  2. 'Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees any formation as permanent it is not possible that he shall make a choice in conformity [with actuality], and without making a choice in conformity [with actuality] it is not possible that he shall enter upon the certainty of rightness, and without entering upon the certainty of rightness it is not possible that he shall realize the fruit of stream-entry or the fruit of once-return or the fruit of non-return or the fruit of arahantship.  Han: Especially, I do not understand what the Translator meant by "making a choice in conformity [with actuality]" and "entering upon the certainty of rightness,"  Thank you very much.   with metta and respect, Han ---------------------------------------------------------- Dear U Han Tun and those who like bhaavanaa, I will quote the 2nd paragraph instead of 1st paragraph. Vipassana kathaa: "Bhagavaa etada'vo ca__". paragraph 1. paragraph 2. "So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbasa`nkhaare aniccato samanupassanto anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato bhavissatii'ti. .Thaana meta.m vijjati. Anulomikaaya khantiyaa samannaagato sammattaniyaama.m okkamissatii'ti. .Thaana meta.m vijjati. Sammattaniyaama.m okkamamaano sotaapattiphala.m vaa sakadaagaamiphala.m vaa anaagaamiphala.m vaa arahatta.m vaa sacchikarissatii'ti. .Thaana meta.m vijjati." ---------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: O! Monks!(Bhikkhave!) " So bhikkhu bhavissatii'ti". So = he/ someone, so bhikkhu = some bhikkhu/ a bhikkhu bhavissati = will be/will do iti = like this sabba = all/ everything sa`nkhaare = to sa`nkhaara ( 5 khandhaas ) sabba sa`nkhaare = to all dhammas(sa`nkhaara dhammas_5 khandhaas) aniccato samanupassanto = anicca + to / sa.m anupassanto anupassati = see again and again, contemplate again and again sa.m = well A bhikkhu see sa`nkhaaras again and again as anicca (impermanence). anulomikaaya = anulomika + aaya = by means of appropriacy khantiyaa = khanti + yaa anulomikaaya khantiyaa (by means of anulomika khanti) samannaagato = sa.m + anu + aagata = accomplish .Thaana = cause (reason) meta.m = eta.m = one vijjati = exist sammattaniyaama.m = sammaa + tta + niyaama = rightness-hood okkamati = ava + kamati = come into eixtsence okkamissati = will come into existence sacchikaroti = sa (saha) + akkhi (eye) + karoti (do) = do seeing in front of eyes. sabbe sa`nkhaare --> aniccato samanupassanto --> anulomika khanti --> sammattaniyaama.m --> phala.m (one of 4 lokuttara vipaaka) If anyone of all sa`nkhaara-dhammas is seen as permanence there will not be appropriate endurance (~naa.na). Then there will not be rightness-hood (no sammaa/ so none of 8 sammaa or NEP). If no NEP then no liberation. If sa`nkhaara-dhammas (5 khandhaas) are seen as impermanence (anicca) there will be appropriate ~naa.na and if there is appropriate ~naa.na there will be rightness-hood (sammaas/ so there will be 8 sammaas or NEP or N8P). If there is N8P or NEP bhikkhu will see fruition of stream-enterer or once-returner or non-returner or arahat. So both paragraph have the same meaning in the pariyaaya of byaatireka (method of reverse). That is If yogii does not see anicca he will not see fruition. If yogii does see anicca he will see fruition. In this vipassanakathaa (speech of special-contemplation) the main fact is seeing 'anicca' on sa`nkhaara-dhammas (5 khandhaas). This fleeting dhamma, if seen, the work is almost done or done. If not seen the work is still to be done. What is that work? It is the work that the Buddha wanted satta done. With Metta, Htoo Naing #132760 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:48 am Subject: Re: Concepts & Realities in Plain English <2> philofillet Dear group Avery good post on consciousness and object, esp seeing and visible object. I hughlight one part: "What it means is that we need to know more about the actual phenomena, the kinds of consciousness -- like seeing -- which experience or cognize objects and the objects themselves -- like visible objects -- which are experienced and without which there cannot be any experiencing." Pls enjoy the whole post below Phil > Dear All, > > I mentioned that "It's easy to comprehend that seeing is different from > hearing or smelling at an intellectual level at least. It may be a little > harder to comprehend that seeing is different from what is seen. > > Even a small child can tell you that seeing and hearing are not the same. > What a child does not know is that when we open our eyes, there is merely > the visual experiencing or seeing of its object. What a child also cannot > tell you is that there is only one kind of experiencing at a time. There > cannot be seeing and hearing together. > > If we merely judge the truth by our own ignorant perception or apparent > experience, we will take the illusion of these experiences occurring > together --and also the illusion of it being oneself that does the > experiencing -- for being the truth. > > In other words, we are very used to having ideas about life and reality > and have held these ideas for a very long time - countless lifetimes in > fact. So when we read that the Buddha encourages us to test out the truth > according to experience, this doesn't mean according to the illusory > concepts and ideas with which we're used to seeing the world in ignorance. > > What it means is that we need to know more about the actual phenomena, the > kinds of consciousness -- like seeing -- which experience or cognize > objects and the objects themselves -- like visible objects -- which are > experienced and without which there cannot be any experiencing. > > When there is the idea of any other agent involved or object being > cognized at this time, we can ask how they cognize or how they are known. > For example, if we think there is a self that sees now, while we look at > the computer, how does this self see? What is it that sees? Similarly, if > we think that there is a computer seen, how is this experienced through > the eyes or is it experienced another way? > > Slowly we begin to find out that much of what we take for consciousness > and direct knowledge are in fact just thoughts or ideas or concepts. The > reason it matters is because it is only by beginning to clear up these > illusions that the truth about experience can be known. > > So aren't these just more views? How can we know realities are not self? > Isn't it a kind of dualism to talk about seeing and visible objects? Are > all concepts bad? > ***** > > Sarah > ===== > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk > #132761 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:50 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Htoo, No one denies it is good to have the Tipitaka preserved intact. However, as Shakespeare wrote in The Merchant of Venice : “The devil can cite scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek, A goodly apple rotten at the heart: O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!” At Access To Insight (for example) the Pali Tipitaka is extensively cited in order to prove the existence of an eternal soul. Even at DSG it is sometimes cited to prove the Theras were wrong and Nagarjuna was right. I don’t believe there are any “devils” at Access To Insight or anywhere else. I do believe, however, there is a reality called miccha ditthi, which deliberately misrepresents the Dhamma for its own purposes. -------------- <. . .> H: I just discussed with Sarah for 'wording' only. "Catudhaa paramatthato" is in the 3rd verse of abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. In Nikaaya this does not appear. --------------- KH: I don’t think Sarah was interested in ‘wording only.’ She was trying to explain to Thomas that dhammas were real in the highest sense. No matter which wording the Pali texts might use, that is always their meaning, isn’t it? In ultimate truth and reality only dhammas exist, and if we see the anicca, dukkha and anatta characteristics of a presently arisen ultimate reality we see the nature of the entire conditioned universe. Thomas did not want to listen; he only wanted to insist that the word “parmattha” did not appear in his favourite Nikaayas . And you, Htoo, were not helpful! :-) Ken H #132762 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:01 am Subject: RE: RE: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Don't ask me what I think of the new look Yahoo! I'll see if I can tidy up my previous message: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Htoo, No one denies it is good to have the Tipitaka preserved intact. However, as Shakespeare wrote in The Merchant of Venice : “The devil can cite scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness Is like a villain with a smiling cheek, A goodly apple rotten at the heart: O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!” KH: At Access To Insight (for example) the Pali Tipitaka is extensively cited in order to prove the existence of an eternal soul. Even at DSG it is sometimes cited to prove the Theras were wrong and Nagarjuna was right. I don’t believe there are any “devils” at Access To Insight or anywhere else. I do believe, however, there is a reality called miccha ditthi, which deliberately misrepresents the Dhamma for its own purposes. -------------- <. . .> H: I just discussed with Sarah for 'wording' only. "Catudhaa paramatthato" is in the 3rd verse of abhidhammatthasa`ngaha. In Nikaaya this does not appear. --------------- KH: I don’t think Sarah was interested in ‘wording only.’ She was trying to explain to Thomas that dhammas were real in the highest sense. No matter which wording the Pali texts might use, that is always their meaning, isn’t it? In ultimate truth and reality only dhammas exist, and if we see the anicca, dukkha and anatta characteristics of a presently arisen ultimate reality we see the nature of the entire conditioned universe. Thomas did not want to listen; he only wanted to insist that the word “parmattha” did not appear in his favourite Nikaayas . And you, Htoo, were not helpful! :-) Ken H (Who knows how that will turn out? I am not hopeful!) #132763 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:10 pm Subject: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes ptaus1 Hi all, It looks like everyone is now being changed over to the new Groups format. When I first got switched some 10 hours ago, nothing was working, but now, most of the functionality is back. I think Yahoo is in the process of fixing bugs, though it will probably take them some time to iron it all out. In the meantime, if anyone's having difficulties finding things in the new format, please feel free to ask me here on list or by emailing me. Thanks Best wishes pt #132764 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:08 pm Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups changes sarahprocter... Dear Pt & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi all, It looks like everyone is now being changed over to the new Groups format. When I first got switched some 10 hours ago, nothing was working, but now, most of the functionality is back. I think Yahoo is in the process of fixing bugs, though it will probably take them some time to iron it all out. In the meantime, if anyone's having difficulties finding things in the new format, please feel free to ask me here on list or by emailing me. Thanks ..... S: Yes, I'm now seeing the dreaded Moscow picture (the first sign of trouble) using my regular email address and no messages. Temporary solutions: - read and reply to DSG mail that comes into your "in-box" . ***If you haven't been affected yet, I recommend that you change the way you receive mail to get it in your in box*** rather than "web only" while you have the chance. You can always set up a "dsg filter" to keep it separate from regular mail. - start another email account, such as a yahoo account, as I've done here to use until it gets affected, or just a new yahoo profile. (ask Pt on or off list for help with any of this. As so many people are affected, he can give any simple steps on-list as he thinks best). - send any emails to me at my regular email add: sarahprocterabbott@ yahoo.co.uk or to Pt or Jon and ask us to forward to the list for you. - send complaint notes to yahoo at the link he gave and see if this has effect. If it does, let us know. Jon and I join the trip to Vietnam tomorrow and may be slow to respond to anything, but Pt will be monitoring the situation and moderator lists and giving updates. Patience! Sarah (& Jon) =========== #132765 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:23 pm Subject: RE: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes kevinf596 Thanks pt. I am all changed over. In fact, I actually like the new format itself, although I thought I wouldn't Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, It looks like everyone is now being changed over to the new Groups format. When I first got switched some 10 hours ago, nothing was working, but now, most of the functionality is back. I think Yahoo is in the process of fixing bugs, though it will probably take them some time to iron it all out. In the meantime, if anyone's having difficulties finding things in the new format, please feel free to ask me here on list or by emailing me. Thanks Best wishes pt #132766 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:43 pm Subject: RE: RE: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes jono.abbott Hi All There is at last something official from Yahoo: "Today we launched our first update to the Groups experience in several years and while these changes are an important step to building a more modern Groups experience, we recognize that this is a considerable change. "We are listening to all of the community feedback and we are actively measuring user feedback so we can continuously make improvements. "- The Yahoo! Groups Team" I suspect everyone will soon be on the new format. My replacement Yahoo ID has already been switched over! I imagine it will take some time for the new arrangements to be finalised and fully operable. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Thanks pt. I am all changed over. In fact, I actually like the new format itself, although I thought I wouldn't Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , wrote: Hi all, It looks like everyone is now being changed over to the new Groups format. When I first got switched some 10 hours ago, nothing was working, but now, most of the functionality is back. I think Yahoo is in the process of fixing bugs, though it will probably take them some time to iron it all out. In the meantime, if anyone's having difficulties finding things in the new format, please feel free to ask me here on list or by emailing me. Thanks Best wishes pt #132767 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:47 pm Subject: The trip to Kaeng Krachan kevinf596 I wanted to say that I had the opportunity to come along on the trip to Kaeng Krachan and I had an amazing time. The Dhamma discussions were great! Ajahn was in great form and went into detail about many topics and answered many questions. With Jon and Sarah there, the conversations became deeper and more lively. Tadao provided some excellent questions (Thank you Tadao!), and of course Sukinder and Betty also helped provide great Dhamma discussion. In particular, I was really happy to see Khun Jagkrit and his wife there and felt honored to be around such nice people. I just wish Nina could have been there! That would have been particularly great. I can't wait for the tapes to be uploaded so that I can listen to the discussions again! I strongly encourage everyone to listen to the uploaded discussions in Kaeng Krachan and also to attend if possible. Ajahn was simply in great form, as I said. I was also taken aback by Khun Duangduen's, Khun Sujit's, and others' kindness. Overall, it was an amazing experience. Kevin #132768 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:11 pm Subject: e-note from Thailand 4 (or 5?) w/A.Sujin - colour kasina sarahprocter... Hi Pt (Nina & Htoo), I raised your topic below # 132411 and #132371 on colour kasina as object of samatha, so will add a few additonal comments from our last discussion in KK when I raised the topic: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > >PT...But what about the color kasinas for example? What does the blue kasina for example has to do with the world? It's not like there's a "blue element" in the same sense as there is the 4 elements. > .... > S: What are we so attached to during the day? Just different colours. We all have our preferences - the blue sky, the green grass, red...yellow..... but it's just colour, just visible object that is seen for an instant and falls away immediately. It doesn't matter what colour we like, but we when there is understanding of it as just colour, the citta is calm, there is no attachment at that moment. > > People in the Buddha's time could understand the danger of attachment to sense objects, but for us, most of the day, lobha rules! ... A.Sujin asked us what the purpose of samatha bhavana is. I mentioned detachment from sense objects and Jon mentioned temporary relief from kilesa. She added that it is also to understand when the citta is kusala and when akusala. Otherwise what is the purpose? Just getting more attachment. It's not a matter of just reading about different colours (such as the Vism quotes mentioned about red for blood, blue for hairs, white for bones or the quote you gave from Vis V, 13). There is colour whenever it is seen. Panna knows when there is kusala and akusala - intellectual understanding at different levels. In brief, samatha bhavana is all about panna, not anyone at all. It's not a matter of just "I want to", but why do you develop it? If one doesn't know, it cannot be developed. There can be samatha (calm) now as we discuss Dhamma, when there is wise reflection. However, these occasional moments of samatha are not samatha bhavana because when it is samatha bhavana, there is the focussing with kusala cittas repeatedly on the same object. For example - now there is dhammanusati, now reflecting with calmness. This is not reciting and not blind focussing. Back to colour and wise reflection. There is only ever that which is seen. In a day, we're so very influenced by colour, always taking colour for something and so very attached to it as I wrote before. The bhavana begins with understanding only colour is seen - kuslala citta with calm. We take it for this or that person because of only colour. Only colour - always moving away from what appears and taking it for things. The texts just refer to common objects of different colours. Right understanding must be there from the beginning. Now there can be awareness and understanding of the reality of visible object/colour or any other dhamma. Samatha is there at such moments. Why try to concentrate or move away from what appears now? Satipatthana includes the development of samatha and is much higher. When there is right understanding, no need for other calm. Without understanding, must be with attachment. **** In another conversation, we discussed how when we think that a certain place or time or object would be better for awareness and understanding, such thinking always keeps one away from the present object - ogha (flood) and yoga (yoke) again. Ignorance hinders so much and at such times there is no understanding of seeing or colour naturally. An example: "Shall I sit here or be aware here or there?" instead of understanding that all dhammas depend on conditions. The middle path! Otherwise, when one thinks of a "better" time, place or way of thinking, one cannot understand lobha as samudaya - cause of the endless cycle. Perhaps Kevin, Jagkrit, Tadao and Sukin will add more reflections or comments on this or other topics. Metta Sarah ====== #132769 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:24 pm Subject: Re: The trip to Kaeng Krachan sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, Great to have you with us and appreciated all your contributions and the way that you so easily "fitted in" with all arrangements. Look forward to seeing you when you next come back to Bkk! Enjoy the rest of your stay and keep posting! Hope to get the talks uploaded before too very long! metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I wanted to say that I had the opportunity to come along on the trip to Kaeng Krachan and I had an amazing time. ======= #132770 From: "philip" Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups changes philofillet On iphone an comprehensible mess until logging in and then it returns to the old format. The new format that appeared at first on iphone would be unuseable. Still under development? Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi all, It looks like everyone is now being changed over to the new Groups format. When I first got switched some 10 hours ago, nothing was working, but now, most of the functionality is back. I think Yahoo is in the process of fixing bugs, though it will probably take them some time to iron it all out. In the meantime, if anyone's having difficulties finding things in the new format, please feel free to ask me here on list or by emailing me. Thanks Best wishes pt > #132771 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:26 pm Subject: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes ptaus1 Hi Phil, Yes, as far as I gather, Yahoo is currently sorting out the bugs for the standard browsers, it'll probable be some time until they get to doing the fixes for mobile device browsers. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: On iphone an comprehensible mess until logging in and then it returns to the old format. The new format that appeared at first on iphone would be unuseable. Still under development? Phil #132772 From: Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:31 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma as refuge. buddhatrue Hi Jagkrit, Yeah, this new Yahoo groups is a freaking mess! I click on the DSG icon for this group and I suddenly get a huge picture of Mother Russia in Red Square! LOLOLOL!! They are freaking morons! They are trying to make Yahoo Groups like Facebook and yet Facebook is a sinking ship. Idiots!! Anyway, I appreciate your reaching out to me the best you could and I hope this message reaches you somehow. Right now, I feel like I am talking through a paper cup! LOL! Those assholes! We all just have to complain and they will wake up eventually. Lesson to be learned: there is nothing secure on the Internet. Metta and Love, James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear James I've problem accessing to my Yahoo DSG account. I'm so sorry for delay response to your post. I hope the problem will be fixed soon and I can write to you more. For now thank you very much for your kind understanding about our discussion in our posts. I've no any intention to interpret The Lord Buddha's teaching in the way to dilute his teaching. On the other hand, I highly respect Buddha, dhamma and Sanga as my refuge to understand realities and leading us out of samsara. I, therefore, will learn dhamma with most careful consideration which sometimes seems a bit of unusual to others. Sorry about that. Discussing more with you soon Thank and Anumodhana Jagkrit Sent from my iPad On Aug 26, 2013, at 18:43, "Buddhatrue" < buddhatrue@... > wrote: <, . .> #132773 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas nilovg Dear Han, Yes, I thought the same as Htoo. Khanti, patience is often translated as choice which makes it unclear. Conformity: anuloma. Nina. Op 29 aug 2013, om 15:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Especially, I do not understand what the Translator meant > by "making a choice in conformity [with actuality]" and "entering > upon the certainty of rightness," #132774 From: "htoonaing@ymail.com" Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:42 am Subject: Re: e-note from Thailand 4 (or 5?) w/A.Sujin - colour kasina htoonaing... Sarah wrote: Hi Pt (Nina & Htoo), I raised your topic below # 132411 and #132371 on colour kasina as object of samatha, so will add a few additonal comments from our last discussion in KK when I raised the topic: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > > >PT...But what about the color kasinas for example? What does the blue kasina for example has to do with the world? It's not like there's a "blue element" in the same sense as there is the 4 elements. > > .... > > S: What are we so attached to during the day? Just different colours. We all have our preferences - the blue sky, Perhaps Kevin, Jagkrit, Tadao and Sukin will add more reflections or comments on this or other topics. Metta Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahaanidaana sutta.m: (2nd last paragraph) "A.t.tha kho ime, Aananda, vimokkhaa. Katame a.t.tha? 1)Ruupii ruupaani passati aya.m pa.thamo vimokkho. 2)Ajjhatta.m aruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati. aya.m dutiyo vimokkho. 3)Subhanteva adhimutto hoti. Aya.m tatiyo vimokkho. 4)Sabbaso ruupasa~n~naana.m samatikkamaa pa.tighasa~n~naana.m attha`ngamaa naanattasa~n~naana.m amanasikaaraa 'ananto aakaaso'ti' aakaasaana~ncaayatana.m upasa.mpajja viharati.Aya.m catuttho vimokkho. 5)vi~naana~ncaayaatana.m 5th V 6)aaki~nci~n~naayatana.m 6th V 7)ne'vasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatana.m 7th V 8)sa~n~naavedayitanirodha.m 8th V ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A.t.thakathaa(of Mahaanidaana sutta.m) A.t.thavimokkha va.n.nanaa: "Tattha vimokkho'ti kena.t.thena vimokkho? Adhimuccana.t.thena.Ko panaaya.m adhimuccana.t.tho naama? Paccaniika dhammehi ca su.t.thu muccana.t.tho, aarama.ne ca abhirativasena su.t.thu muccana.t.tho pitua`nke vissa.t.tha`nga pacca`ngassa daarakassa sayana.m viya aniggahita bhaavena niraasa`nkataaya aarama.ne pavattiiti vutta.m hoti. Aya.m panattho pacchime vimokkhe natthi, purimesu sabbesu atthi. Ruupii ruupaani passatii'ti ettha ajjhatta.m kesaadiisu(at hair etc) niila kasi.naadiisu(BLUE KASI.NA) niilakasi.naadi vasena uppaadita.m ruupajjhaana.m RUUPA.M , tadassatthiiti RUUPI. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With Metta, Htoo Naing #132775 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear Nina,  Thank you very much for your kind remark. How are you? I am still suffering from various after-effects of the surgery, although the surgery itself was a wonderful success. Wishing you all the best,  with metta and respect, Han ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas  Dear Han, Yes, I thought the same as Htoo. Khanti, patience is often translated as choice which makes it unclear. Conformity: anuloma. Nina. Op 29 aug 2013, om 15:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Especially, I do not understand what the Translator meant > by "making a choice in conformity [with actuality]" and "entering > upon the certainty of rightness," #132776 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The trip to Kaeng Krachan nilovg Dear Kevin, Thanks for your kind concern. I had an accident (broken hip) and had to cancel. Conditions rule. We can make beautiful plans but I learnt that one never, never knows what is in store for us. I lost my husband and I had no idea I would be in Thailand last year, listening to Acharn's wise lessons about life and death. The best medicine for me. Now I plan for Jan. next, but I have to train hard each day to walk into Thailand. Nina. Op 30 aug 2013, om 06:47 heeft het volgende geschreven: > I just wish Nina could have been there! That would have been particularly great. #132777 From: Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:30 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] The trip to Kaeng Krachan kevinf596 Dear Nina, I am so sorry to hear about Ludwig, and also very sorry to hear about your hip. You are 100% right: conditions rule. I could not have said it better. We never know what will arise next. With metta, Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Kevin, Thanks for your kind concern. I had an accident (broken hip) and had to cancel. Conditions rule. We can make beautiful plans but I learnt that one never, never knows what is in store for us. I lost my husband and I had no idea I would be in Thailand last year, listening to Acharn's wise lessons about life and death. The best medicine for me. Now I plan for Jan. next, but I have to train hard each day to walk into Thailand. Nina. Op 30 aug 2013, om 06:47 heeft < kevinf596@... > < kevinf596@... > het volgende geschreven: > I just wish Nina could have been there! That would have been particularly great. #132778 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:03 pm Subject: Saigon e-note 1 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Friends, End of a long day starting with a very early flight from Bangkok to Ho Chi Minh City, still also known as Saigon with Ajhan Sujin and about 20 other Thai friends. Greeted by our lovely Vietnamese friends from Hanoi, a delicious Vietnamese lunch and a chance to make impressions of the bustling city - colourful China town and market areas, new grand-looking buildings in other areas, lake-front up market restaurants (where we had our lunch) and poorer areas. Motorbikes everywhere like in Hanoi. Our hotel is comfortable, but not luxurious and we can get wi-fi in our room, otherwise I wouldn't be writing this. Long discussion this afternoon, held in an upstaris coffee lounge in the up-market restaurant area by the lake. Our Vietnamese friends had arranged and set up another venue on an island, but at the last moment last night, the venue got cancelled and they had to make new arrangements which have led to some participants not being able to attend. Politics and security issues are always a concern in Vietnam. Anyway, around 60 Vietnamese attended the discussion and it was lively and informal. Ajahn and a few of us sat behind table and everyone else sat on the floor or chairs in front and around us. A lovely atmosphere. Lots of discussion on the meaning of 'dhamma', 'paramattha dhamma' and 'abhidhamma'. Discussion about the meaning of practice, patipatti and the importance of right theoretical understanding first, pariyatti. A lot of people here have studied in Burma or Vietnam with meditation teachers and there were questions about methods and techniques, breathing and being open to different approaches. Always back to this moment, to dhammas now as anatta. Discussion about the right and wrong path, about sakkaya ditthi, about namas and rupas and lots of discussion at the end on seeing and visible object with some good questions on this topic at the very end. In other words, just like the issues we discuss here! Some of the new participants from Saigon seem very keen and sharp. Like in Hanoi, some have excellent English and some have no English, so Tam Bach has to work hard translating all the discussion. Only 8 p.m.but Jon and I can't stop yawning and I can hardly see what I'm typing, so will send this off before I lose it. metta Sarah ===== #132779 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Saigon e-note 1 nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for the note. it gave a good impression and so many Vietnamese attendants. I could not get it live, but that was perhaps difficult in that location. Nina. Op 31 aug 2013, om 15:03 heeft Sarah Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Anyway, around 60 Vietnamese attended the discussion and it was lively and informal. #132780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas nilovg Dear Han, Op 30 aug 2013, om 00:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Dr > Mehm Tin Mon, in The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, translated it as "the > knowledge of adaptation to the Path." (page 392, 1995 edition) > > Therefore, > to accomplish the knowledge of conformity or the knowledge of adaptation to the > Path, one must have a gentle and forbearing disposition or "khanti." > > -------------------- N: It arises shortly before enlightenment. Gentle and forbearing, I would rather say: having patience and endurance to consider and contemplate again and again, as you write in the next paragraph. > > Han: The > next step is I take up your "Accomplish by means of appropriate > ~naa.na i.e. anuloma-~naa.na." > > By means > of appropriate > ~naa.na what does one accomplish? One (anupassati) sees again and again, contemplates > again and again the sa"nkhaara-dhammas > (5 khandhaas) as impermanence (anicca) with the appropriate ~naa.na. ------- N: I heard about your surgery, was it the eyes? I have to do lost of exercises and walking, even now without a stick, but still holding it above the ground, just in case when I am alone. Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #132781 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 12:21 am Subject: RE: The trip to Kaeng Krachan tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina: I'm sorry to have not been able to see you this time. And in January I'm not able to attend Dhamma sessions due to my teaching duties. I assume that you've been getting healthier. As Kevin has mentioned, the discussions at Kaeng Krachan were so great in the sense that I'm going back Thailand for more discussions which take place in the middle of September. (My teaching starts from October, so I can time-wise afford to attend these meetings.) During this trip, I've learnt several important things, which must be quite obvious for you but not for me. 1) Metta includes everybody. (It's not only for those we love or like.) 2) The aim of Buddhism is not to become a nice person. (As a by-product of one's practice, one may become a nice person, but it should not be part of our goal.) 3) There are good and bad things with kamma/vipaaka. A good thing is that one' life does not end here. A bad thing is that it is not Tadao who lives in the next life. 4) Wrong view is hard to see but it should become an object of one's awareness "more often". ("More often" is my phrase, not Kun Sujin's.) 5) In sum, what Kun Sujin tells us is "See a dhamma in a dhamma". Take care. With mettaa, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Nina, I am so sorry to hear about Ludwig, and also very sorry to hear about your hip. You are 100% right: conditions rule. I could not have said it better. We never know what will arise next. With metta, Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , wrote: Dear Kevin, Thanks for your kind concern. I had an accident (broken hip) and had to cancel. Conditions rule. We can make beautiful plans but I learnt that one never, never knows what is in store for us. I lost my husband and I had no idea I would be in Thailand last year, listening to Acharn's wise lessons about life and death. The best medicine for me. Now I plan for Jan. next, but I have to train hard each day to walk into Thailand. Nina. Op 30 aug 2013, om 06:47 heeft < kevinf596@... > < kevinf596@... > het volgende geschreven: > I just wish Nina could have been there! That would have been particularly great. #132782 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 12:49 am Subject: RE: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes ptaus1 Hi all, It looks like Yahoo is really open to feedback regarding the new format - I voted on several ideas proposed on the feedback forum, and the next day got an email from Yahoo that they are working on fixing these issues. So, if there's anything you would like changed in the new format, please go to the feedback page and vote for an existing idea, or add your own so that Yahoo team can take into consideration. I'm not sure how long Yahoo will be taking our ideas, hopefully a few more days. Best wishes pt #132783 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 1:02 am Subject: RE: RE: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes ptaus1 Hi all, Sorry, forgot the link to the feedback page: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, It looks like Yahoo is really open to feedback regarding the new format - I voted on several ideas proposed on the feedback forum, and the next day got an email from Yahoo that they are working on fixing these issues. So, if there's anything you would like changed in the new format, please go to the feedback page and vote for an existing idea, or add your own so that Yahoo team can take into consideration. I'm not sure how long Yahoo will be taking our ideas, hopefully a few more days. Best wishes pt #132784 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 5:30 am Subject: RE: Re: Yahoo Groups changes sarahprocter... Dear Pt & all, Grateful if as many people here as possible vote for a) being able to expand messages (30 messages a page) as this is essential for our back-up of archives and makes it much easier to read messages, b) being able to reply in messages as before with indentations etc, paragraphs and so on. I'm hoping Pt will give more instructions. The sooner you follow them and vote the better as it may be a small window of having our voices heard. Thanks Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi all, Sorry, forgot the link to the feedback page: http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, ptaus1@... wrote: Hi all, It looks like Yahoo is really open to feedback regarding the new format - I voted on several ideas proposed on the feedback forum, and the next day got an email from Yahoo that they are working on fixing these issues. So, if there's anything you would like changed in the new format, please go to the feedback page and vote for an existing idea, or add your own so that Yahoo team can take into consideration. I'm not sure how long Yahoo will be taking our ideas, hopefully a few more days. Best wishes pt > #132785 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 7:19 am Subject: RE: Saigon e-note 1 gazita2002 Hallo Sarah, Thanks for the update, sounds like its hard work for Tam and anumodana to her for her effort. Wish I was there but there is still visible object, sound, attachment etc 'alive and well' right here, now :) patience, courage and good cheer, my good friend azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for the note. it gave a good impression and so many Vietnamese attendants. I could not get it live, but that was perhaps difficult in that location. Nina. Op 31 aug 2013, om 15:03 heeft Sarah Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Anyway, around 60 Vietnamese attended the discussion and it was lively and informal. #132786 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 7:32 am Subject: RE: the khandhas are realities. gazita2002 Hallo Phil, I understand your statement re realities to be correct, and suggest that "they do not exist, because they fall away immediately" simply means they don't exist for any longer than that very short moment when they arise, before falling away. Maybe its because of translations like this that a lot of people believe that realities are non-realities that they don't exist even for that very short time. patience,courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Nina (and Htoo) > ------- > N: I agree with all you write here. > As Htoo quoted: <8). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa vibhava-dhammaa." > > These 5 khandhaas are non-existence-natured."> > They do not exist, because they fall away immediately. > ----- I am confused by this. Paramattha dhammas (realities) arise, and have existence in a moment, don't they? We are only aware of the nimitta, but that is not to say that khandas don't exist (momentarily) is it? Arent there like three sub-moments (?) - arising, presence and fallng away of each dhamma. Isn't the "presence" sub-moment (?) in fact momentary existence? Phil p.s I know this sort of thing has been discussed for ages at DSG, but I simply take your word, Nina, for what is to be intellectually understood as correct. #132787 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 40 Bhaavanaas hantun1 Dear Nina, > > Han: Therefore, to accomplish the knowledge of conformity or the knowledge of adaptation to the Path, one must have a gentle and forbearing disposition or "khanti." > N: It arises shortly before enlightenment. Gentle and forbearing, I would rather say: having patience and endurance to consider and contemplate again and again, as you write in the next paragraph. Han: Thank you very much for your useful comment which I agree completely. I was only trying to get nearest to the translation of Pa.tisambhidaamagga. Yes, one of the four ~naa.na-sampayutta mahaa-kusala cittas functions three times as parikamma, upacaara, and anuloma and then, observing Nibbaana, functions once more as gotrabhu, just before magga javana in Magga Viithi. --------------------- > Nina: I heard about your surgery, was it the eyes? I have to do lots of exercises and walking, even now without a stick, but still holding it above the ground, just in case when I am alone. Han: It was a surgery called bilateral-orchiectomy. It was done to remove my male hormone which could be serving as a nutriment for the cancer cells in the prostate gland. The surgery itself was very good. It was only the after-effects, which I find them worse than previously expected. But I think my body may be able to adjust to the new situation in about six months or so. I am also praying for your full recovery. But please be careful. with metta and respect, Han . #132788 From: philip Coristine Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 8:44 am Subject: RE: [dsg] RE: the khandhas are realities. philofillet Dear Azita Thank you for your response. Unless I hear otherwise from a trusted Dhamma friend (which is to say cittas accompanied by panna) I will continue to believe that paramattha dhammas do exist/have existence, albeit momentary. Phil P.s posting from my mailbox, the mobile version of the new format is unuseable. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com From: gazita2002@yahoo.com.au Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 14:32:59 -0700 Subject: [dsg] RE: the khandhas are realities. Hallo Phil, I understand your statement re realities to be correct, and suggest that "they do not exist, because they fall away immediately" simply means they don't exist for any longer than that very short moment when they arise, before falling away. Maybe its because of translations like this that a lot of people believe that realities are non-realities that they don't exist even for that very short time. patience,courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Nina (and Htoo) > ------- > N: I agree with all you write here. > As Htoo quoted: <8). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa vibhava-dhammaa." > > These 5 khandhaas are non-existence-natured."> > They do not exist, because they fall away immediately. > ----- I am confused by this. Paramattha dhammas (realities) arise, and have existence in a moment, don't they? We are only aware of the nimitta, but that is not to say that khandas don't exist (momentarily) is it? Arent there like three sub-moments (?) - arising, presence and fallng away of each dhamma. Isn't the "presence" sub-moment (?) in fact momentary existence? Phil p.s I know this sort of thing has been discussed for ages at DSG, but I simply take your word, Nina, for what is to be intellectually understood as correct. #132789 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 8:48 am Subject: RE: Re: 40 Bhaavanaas kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> >> KH: I will never tire of arguing this point with Mahayana-leaning DSG members. The only thing I am tired of is their unwillingness to discuss it! >> >> Did the Buddha say that nothing was absolutely real (that there were no paramattha dhammas)? > H: Well, the Buddha DID say the following: > /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > and ----- KH: Thanks, Howard. You have quoted those suttas many times. When Nina and others give Theravada interpretations (in accordance with the ancient commentaries) you say are not interested; you prefer your own commentaries. I said I was tired of your unwillingness to discuss, but perhaps that was not right. Your unwillingness probably says a lot in itself. It says you have no choice. The paramattha quality of conditiond dhammas is made perfectly clear by the suttas. Therefore, if anyone wants to dispute paramattha dhammas they must refuse to discuss the suttas. They have no choice. Ken H #132790 From: Pt Gr Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 11:35 am Subject: Voting ptaus1 Hi all, > S: Grateful if as many people here as possible vote for a) being able to expand messages (30 messages a page) as this is essential for our back-up of archives and makes it much easier to read messages, b) being able to reply in messages as before with indentations etc, paragraphs and so on. > I'm hoping Pt will give more instructions. The sooner you follow them and vote the better as it may be a small window of having our voices heard. pt: If you would like to help with voting, here are a few ideas that would help everyone if implemented. To vote, just click on the links below, then click on the 'Vote' button - it's located just underneath the number of votes on the left side. You will be asked to enter your Yahoo email and submit your votes (1,2, or 3 votes). Everyone gets 50 votes, so you can vote for several ideas. Thanks for your assistance. http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4368815-when-view\ ing-a-topic-i-want-to-sort-it-by-most-rec http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4364879-add-an-ex\ pand-all-button-to-message-threads-so-w http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362786-stop-kill\ ing-line-and-paragraph-breaks http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4355359-add-edit-\ capability-to-pending-messages-make-me http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4330597-photos-do\ wnload-to-pc http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4370833-give-us-a\ -choice-between-neo-and-classic- Best wishes pt #132791 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 12:04 pm Subject: RE: 40 Bhaavanaas thomaslaw03 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> >> KH: I will never tire of arguing this point with Mahayana-leaning DSG members. The only thing I am tired of is their unwillingness to discuss it! >> >> Did the Buddha say that nothing was absolutely real (that there were no paramattha dhammas)? > H: Well, the Buddha DID say the following: > /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > and ----- KH: Thanks, Howard. You have quoted those suttas many times. When Nina and others give Theravada interpretations (in accordance with the ancient commentaries) you say are not interested; you prefer your own commentaries. I said I was tired of your unwillingness to discuss, but perhaps that was not right. Your unwillingness probably says a lot in itself. It says you have no choice. The paramattha quality of conditiond dhammas is made perfectly clear by the suttas. Therefore, if anyone wants to dispute paramattha dhammas they must refuse to discuss the suttas. They have no choice. Ken H -------------- Do you mean you have no choice? It seems to me you are unable to made perfectly clear according to the suttas, which do not even have the term, paramattha. Thomas #132792 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 1:30 pm Subject: RE: Voting kevinf596 Thank you Pt! I encourage everyone to vote. It is important expecially that we can a) expand messages (especially for backing them up), and have paragraph breaks, indentations, and so forth (why in the world that disappeared I don't know), as Sarah has stated. I voted for all of the proposals on the list 3x except for the last one and I still have many votes left, so don't be scared to choose vote x3 on each one (the option is given to use 1, 2, or 3, of your votes on each proposal). The important ones on the list have very few votes so please take the time to vote. Also, when voting, your e-mail address and name (just first name) only have to be entered one time. Have a wonderful day! With metta, Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi all, > S: Grateful if as many people here as possible vote for a) being able to expand messages (30 messages a page) as this is essential for our back-up of archives and makes it much easier to read messages, b) being able to reply in messages as before with indentations etc, paragraphs and so on. > I'm hoping Pt will give more instructions. The sooner you follow them and vote the better as it may be a small window of having our voices heard. pt: If you would like to help with voting, here are a few ideas that would help everyone if implemented. To vote, just click on the links below, then click on the 'Vote' button - it's located just underneath the number of votes on the left side. You will be asked to enter your Yahoo email and submit your votes (1,2, or 3 votes). Everyone gets 50 votes, so you can vote for several ideas. Thanks for your assistance. http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4368815-when-view\ ing-a-topic-i-want-to-sort-it-by-most-rec http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4364879-add-an-ex\ pand-all-button-to-message-threads-so-w http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362786-stop-kill\ ing-line-and-paragraph-breaks http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4355359-add-edit-\ capability-to-pending-messages-make-me http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4330597-photos-do\ wnload-to-pc http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4370833-give-us-a\ -choice-between-neo-and-classic- Best wishes pt #132793 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 1:39 pm Subject: RE: The trip to Kaeng Krachan tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina, Kanti-yo paramag na vijjati. One step at a time. Take care, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Hi Nina: I'm sorry to have not been able to see you this time. And in January I'm not able to attend Dhamma sessions due to my teaching duties. I assume that you've been getting healthier. As Kevin has mentioned, the discussions at Kaeng Krachan were so great in the sense that I'm going back Thailand for more discussions which take place in the middle of September. (My teaching starts from October, so I can time-wise afford to attend these meetings.) During this trip, I've learnt several important things, which must be quite obvious for you but not for me. 1) Metta includes everybody. (It's not only for those we love or like.) 2) The aim of Buddhism is not to become a nice person. (As a by-product of one's practice, one may become a nice person, but it should not be part of our goal.) 3) There are good and bad things with kamma/vipaaka. A good thing is that one' life does not end here. A bad thing is that it is not Tadao who lives in the next life. 4) Wrong view is hard to see but it should become an object of one's awareness "more often". ("More often" is my phrase, not Kun Sujin's.) 5) In sum, what Kun Sujin tells us is "See a dhamma in a dhamma". Take care. With mettaa, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , wrote: Dear Nina, I am so sorry to hear about Ludwig, and also very sorry to hear about your hip. You are 100% right: conditions rule. I could not have said it better. We never know what will arise next. With metta, Kevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , wrote: Dear Kevin, Thanks for your kind concern. I had an accident (broken hip) and had to cancel. Conditions rule. We can make beautiful plans but I learnt that one never, never knows what is in store for us. I lost my husband and I had no idea I would be in Thailand last year, listening to Acharn's wise lessons about life and death. The best medicine for me. Now I plan for Jan. next, but I have to train hard each day to walk into Thailand. Nina. Op 30 aug 2013, om 06:47 heeft < kevinf596@... > < kevinf596@... > het volgende geschreven: > I just wish Nina could have been there! That would have been particularly great. #132794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: The trip to Kaeng Krachan nilovg Dear Tadao, Thank you for your very good note. Those things may be obvious, but we cannot hear them enough. Such as : 3) There are good and bad things with kamma/vipaaka. A good thing is that one' life does not end here. A bad thing is that it is not Tadao who lives in the next life. ------ N: I have to learn this the hard way. ------ 4) Wrong view is hard to see but it should become an object of one's awareness "more often". ------- N: Yes, very hard. Kh S says: when it appears pa~n~naa cana see it. ------ Nina. #132795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The trip to Kaeng Krachan nilovg Dear Kevin, Op 31 aug 2013, om 11:30 heeft het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, I am so sorry to hear > about Ludwig, and also very sorry to hear about your hip. You are 100% > right: conditions rule. I could not have said it better. We never know > what will arise next. > -------- N: Thank you for your sympathy. You may not know that Ivan also passed away. It happened when I had just arrived in Thailand, in January. I could attend the ceremony in the temple and at sea in Huahin and this meant a lot to me. Kh Sujin repeated so many times: what has fallen away never, never comes back. At first it was so hard to hear this. And recently I heard: She stressed many times that we are living in a dream, when thinking of persons and things. I posted here what I wrote about last trip as a memorial to Lodewijk. If you like I can send it to you. Nina. > > #132796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A lump of foam. nilovg Dear Howard, Op 28 aug 2013, om 17:13 heeft Upasaka@aol.com het volgende geschreven: > I find the sutta material quite clear on its own, without the commentary, which to me adds stuff not stated or implied in the sutta. Insubstantial, Nina, means "fully void of substance." So the sutta is clear to me on its own. Substance is essential nature/essence. What lacks substance is mere appearance. ------- N: Substance is essence (sara), yes, I agree. But what appears for a moment is still real. I am pondering over the 40 bhaavanas given by Htoo and Han. Although it is stated in the English translation: no reality ( as quoted by Thomas), we have to read the other ones, they are not in contradiction with each other. For example: 10)."Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa pabha`nguno." These 5 khandhaas are quiveringly-broken into non-existence from existence. ------ N: They are not there, then because of conditions they are there for a very short moment, and then they are no more. 40). "Ime pa~ncakkhandhaa su~n~naa." These 5 khandhaas are void-of-essence. N: No essence: no core, no self. I conditioned realities do not exist, how could they be realized as they are? No way to ever reach the other shore, nibbaana. Very wise people may not need commentaries, but the teachings are subtle and deep. When I read commentary after the sutta reading, it strikes me that the co mentions what I had not noticed before. ------- Nina. #132797 From: Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 10:18 pm Subject: RE: Re: [dsg] RE: The trip to Kaeng Krachan tadaomiyamot... Hi Nina, "Wrong view" is very much the main issue of mine for this trip. Kun Sujin emphasized the importance of seeing it as clear as possible; she said that we tend to take a bunch of realities as a dhamma/reality because at such moments, there is (a notion of) self who is being aware of them. In other words, when we do not see "wrong view" as it is, our sati and pannaa would not get strong enough to see realities as they are. Mettaaya, tadao --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Tadao, Thank you for your very good note. Those things may be obvious, but we cannot hear them enough. Such as : 3) There are good and bad things with kamma/vipaaka. A good thing is that one' life does not end here. A bad thing is that it is not Tadao who lives in the next life. ------ N: I have to learn this the hard way. ------ 4) Wrong view is hard to see but it should become an object of one's awareness "more often". ------- N: Yes, very hard. Kh S says: when it appears pa~n~naa cana see it. ------ Nina. #132798 From: "sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com" Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 11:57 pm Subject: Re: Voting sarahprocter... Dear All, I've just voted 3x from both my yahoo accounts and the mods account, Jon's finishing his and we ask others of you to do the same. Pt's links didn't come out as links, so I'll post them again with a new one at the top which I'd like everyone, even those who've already voted to vote for. One of Pt's has already been agreed to, so I've deleted it. Here's the list, pretty well in order of priority for voting. You can just put in one link at a time, vote 3 times with email add and any first name. Very easy. Topics http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4373994-reply-in-\ context http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4368815-when-view\ ing-a-topic-i-want-to-sort-it-by-most-rec http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4364879-add-an-ex\ pand-all-button-to-message-threads-so-w http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4366226-please-pu\ t-ability-to-read-messages-expanded-in- http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups/suggestions/4362786-stop-kill\ ing-line-and-paragraph-breaks To see more options, here is the homepage: Feedback page http://yahoo.uservoice.com/forums/209451-us-groups Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Thank you Pt! I encourage everyone to vote. It is important expecially that we can a) expand messages (especially for backing them up), and have paragraph breaks, indentations, and so forth (why in the world that disappeared I don't know), as Sarah has stated. I voted for all of the proposals on the list 3x except for the last one and I still have many votes left, so don't be scared to choose vote x3 on each one (the option is given to use 1, 2, or 3, of your votes on each proposal). The important ones on the list have very few votes so please take the time to vote. Also, when voting, your e-mail address and name (just first name) only have to be entered one time. Have a wonderful day! #132799 From: Sarah Abbott Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 12:19 am Subject: E-notes from Saigon 2 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, What a full day of dhamma discussion! The session with the large group this morning - lively, good questions. Ajahn Sujin in great form. Occasionally, Jon & I assist her if she needs a breal or to remind her to pause for Vietnamese translations! (We're all sitting behind a table in front of everyone). Early afternoon, a session with a couple of Vietnamese Theravada monks and a small group in our hotel. Very keen understanding about realities and interest in what she's saying. Followed immediately by the main afternoon discussion with the large group. Ajahn has now been talking on Dhamma for several hours during the day. In the evening Jon and I planned to return to the hotel to work on DSG problems and personal matters, but a small group of Vietnamese friends kindly invited us to go out with them for a bowl of noodles and more Dhamma discussion - so that probably makes 7hrs or so of discussion for the day! Just a fewf brief quotes/notes from A.Sujin: "I should try" - not enough understanding of what the Buddha taught as anatta. If one tries to understand anatta, impossible, because atta is trying. Hardness is very common. It appears often. Everyone knows this. It's the oject of kaya vinnana (body consciousness with no understanding, appearing as usual, not a reality. The Buddha didn't assign anyone to be Master because the Teachings themselves are the Master! Without understanding, there is wanting to do in order to know and that's impossible because the Teachings are not to become attached more and more. Detachment comes from understanding little by little. What's the purpose of patipatti if not the understanding of reality stage by stage? Qu about Ajahn Sujin's own experiences. KS: Would you like me to talk about understanding and satipatthana? When there is no understanding now, can seeing now be the object of satipatthana? How many cittas are there? 89 - this is not the meaning of studying. Different accumulations - Some give a lot - danupanissaya. Some don't give so much but have very good manners of speech and deeds - silanupanissaya. Some develop calm away from akusala and the understanding of realities - bhavanupanissaya. Some have upanissaya for wrong understanding. This is the most dangerous of akusala because it will lead to all akusala and wrong understanding. Metta Sarah =======