200 From: Mike Potter Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 8:29pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bhavanga-cittas Dear Friends, Thanks, Amara, for pointing me to Kammasakata-Nana by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. It is excellent. I became interested in the Bhavanga a few months ago when a friend asked several questions about it. Those questions prompted my further study and refelection. I'd like to share with you the responses I gave to him, which were largely based on Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" and "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" edited by Bhiikkhu Bodhi. If I have missed the mark in any respect, I would be grateful for your comments. Perhaps this will spawn further discussion on this or related topics. (1) How does the Bhavanga relate to the 5 aggregates? There are four ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas): Consciousness (citta), Mental Formations (cetasikas), Materiality (rupa) and the Unconditioned (Nibbana). This is all there is. Everything that exists fits within one or more of these realities,including the Bhavanga. The first three are conditional realities that can also be grouped as nama-rupa. In terms of the human experience in the sense-sphere, nama-rupa consists of the Five Aggregates of Form (Materiality), Feelings, Perception, Mental Formations, and Consciousness. The middle three aggregates are, in the Abhidhamma, all included within the category of Mental Formations. Mental Formations (aka Mental Factors) are the mental states that arise along with consciousness, performing diverse functions. For those who have taken rebirth, Consciousness can be classified by function into three types: rebirth-linking patisandhi-citta), life-continuum (bhavanga-citta), and dying-consciousness (cuti-citta). The Bhavanga is a "state of consciousness," classified by way of function, and not a thing, a place or an "organ" of the mind or body. It has no separate existence apart from Consciousness itself. As Consciousness, it is one of the Five Aggregates. (2) How can it be part of the aggregate Consciousness, when it has sense impressions (content) while Consciousness only illuminates? Perhaps, the Bhavanga is part of mental formations? Perhaps we think of the term "Bhavanga" too narrowly when we parse everything but pure Consciousness. Just as the components of nama-rupa can be discussed individually, but nama cannot function without rupa, and vice versa, neither can the Bhavanga, as a function of Consciousness, carry out its function without its concomitant Mental Factors (including Volition) and the effects of the (up to 24) factors that condition each moment of Consciousness (including Kamma.) The Bhavanga merely performs the function of life-continuum: keeping the life force in continual existence throughout one's given life span when the cittas of the mind-door process and the sense-door process have fallen away, by arising with its object (which is the same as the object of the patisandhi-citta of that lifetime), then passing away and conditioning the arising of the next bhavanga-citta, and so on, until the next mind-door or sense-door process begins. It is somewhat like putting your hand in water. The water is displaced by your hand when it is put in, and the space occupied by your hand is immediately occupied by water when your hand is removed. There is never a time when there is not either water or your hand in that space. As for having sense impressions (content), I understand that some teachers say that the kammic potential is contained in the Bhavanga; others say it is included in the Mental Factor called "life faculty." In his recent book, "Kamma, Rebirth, Samsara," (The Wheel #425/427) Ashin Ottama made the following comment on this point, and I am inclined to agree with him: "I personally believe that the whole kammic potential as well as all mental defilements are passed down through the conditional relationship between successive mind-moments. In fact, I would say that kamma and the defilements are the conditioning process itself. Some teachers might say this is very unlikely, even impossible, as we have so much past kamma, but I do not think the "total" kammic imprint need be extremely complicated. Consider, for example, that we can achieve all the colours of the world just by mixing the three primary colours." So, if Conditions are "shaped" by one's past accumulations, then the impact of such conditions on each successive mind-moment will effectively "transmit" the sense impressions (content) to the next mind-moment, including those mind-moments which are carried on in the state of Bhavanga between moments of the mind-door and sense-door processes. (3) If the unconsciousness mental impressions in the Bhavanga rise and fall, but not to Consciousness, what then do they rise to? Perhaps, Mental Formations may be conscious, preconscious, or unconscious? I think this has already been answered in (2) above. 201 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 8:30pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello! Dear Mike, Im very glad to see you join up. I've actually been expecting you as I saw your posting on the Pali group a couple of weeks ago where you referred to Zolag and Nina. I could tell you were diligent and would wonder about the cryptic DSDG on the Dhamma study site. And thanks for putting links to your web site. I saw the book recommendations - for Cetasikas and Abhidhamma In daily life-from you and another of your friends. Dear Jonathon, It is so true how our bodies are just as fragile as any other wordly condition. Consider seeing. We are used to seeing, take it for granted. But each moment is conditioned. Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. No one can slow this process down- it happens continuosly whether we are in the human realm, or apaya or animal or even Gods. For a moment of seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma done in some previous life ( it could be kamma done aeons ago). But it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas too only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Thus, it seems to me, when I reflect about this, that it is surprising that the body can keep going at all. No one could control such an intricate mass of fluxing conditions. We live in a happy realm so we want these conditions to continue. Those in apaya wish for the conditions to cease. And so samsara goes on. Robert > > I just joined this group and want to introduce > myself. I've read many > of Nina van Gorkom's books and find her writing to > be very clear. I've > recommended her books to many others. Alan Weller > has been helpful in > allowing me to post a chapter from Abhidhamma in > Daily Life on my > website, The Ganges Sangha, where I have collected a > number of > resources on Abhidhamma studies. I'm in the process > of getting a > wonderful article written by Rupert Gethin about the > Bhavanga and > Rebirth which I hope to post on the site as soon as > I can get > permission to do so. There are extensive offerings > there and I invite > you to explore it > (http://personal.mem.bellsouth.net/~mikep/) > > I enjoyed Robert's article about meditation > techniques and mindfulness. > It was helpful to be reminded that even when there > is no understanding > there is an opportunity to understand that, too. :-) > > With metta, > > Mike Potter > > 202 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:01pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: our mana boost at DS >She >always encourages me and everyone else to talk and write about daily life >experiences as dhamma students....this was in my mind when we decided to >start the group! >Sarah She will be so happy to hear this, she has always anumodana with the group's kusala cetana! Thanks, Sarah, Amara ______________________________________________________ 203 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Mike's Hello! >(or Amara, maybe you can >give his link too, now you're so computerliterate!) > >Mike, like Jonothan & Amara, I look f/w to yr questions, comments or >answers! ..and also look f/w to checking yr link SOON! I would be glad to, just tell me what to say in the description box- but it's so easy to do, just go to the links page on DSDG at and type the URL and the descriptions in the appropriate boxes and click the ADD URL button, and presto! Zap away! Amara ______________________________________________________ 204 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 24, 2000 5:42pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >Thanks, Amara, for pointing me to Kammasakata-Nana by Sujin >Boriharnwanaket. It is excellent. Mike, I am glad you liked Kammasakata-Nana. I would like to recommend some more: if you find the time to read the rest of the advanced section, I don't think you will have any more questions about the bhavanga or any other type of citta, for example, when you say, >(1) How does the Bhavanga relate to the 5 aggregates? towards the end of Part I of the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' you will find The Four Paramattha-dhamma Defined by Khandha Citta is vinnana-khandha Cetasika is vedana-khandha, sanna-khandha, sankhara-khandha Rupa is rupa-khandha Nibbana is not khandha. It is khandha-vimutti or emancipation from khandha. The Three Paramattha-dhamma as Five Khandha Citta-paramattha 81 or 121 All are vinnana-khandha. Cetasika-paramattha 52 The vedana-cetasika is vedana-khandha The sanna-cetasika is sanna-khandha 50 cetasikas are sankhara-khandha Rupa-paramattha 28 All are rupa-khandha. The Five Khandha as Three Paramattha-dhamma Rupa-khandha is 28 Rupa paramattha Vedana-khandha is 1 vedana-cetasika Sanna-khandha is 1 sanna-cetasika 52 cetasikas Sankhara-khandha is 50 cetasikas Vinnana-khandha is 89 citta-paramattha or 121 citta-paramattha As to the different functions of the citta, they are more numerous than just three or five: at the end of Citta ch 6 in the second part of 'Summary' you will find: SUMMARY OF THE FUNCTIONS OF CITTA There are 14 kiccas (function) of citta comprising: 1. Patisandhi-kicca is the function of continuity after cuti-kicca. The Citta that can perform patisandhi-kicca are the 19 vipaka-citta, namely 10 kamavacara-vipaka-citta 5 rupa-vacara-vipaka-citta 4 arupa-vacara-vipaka-ccitta 2. Bhavanga-kicca is the function of life continuum, keeping that lifetime. The citta that perform bhavanga-kicca are the 19 vipaka-citta. Whichever vipaka-citta performs the patisandhi-kicca, the same kind of vipaka-citta would arise to perform bhavanga-kicca sequentially, after the patisandhi-citta has fallen away, until the vithi-citta arise through one dvara or another. Then when the vithi-citta through the dvara fall away, the bhavanga-Citta would always arise in continuation until cuti (death). 3. Avajjana-kicca is the function of adverting to the arammana in contact with the dvara. It is the first vithi-citta to arise through one of the six dvara. The citta that perform avajjana-kicca are the two kiriya-citta, namely: The panca-dvaravajjana-citta The mano-dvaravajjana-citta 4. Dassana-kicca is the function of seeing. There are two vipaka-citta that perform dassana-kicca, namely The cakkhu-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The cakkhu-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 5. Savana-kicca is the function of hearing. There are two vipaka-citta that perform savana-kicca, namely The sota-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The sota-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 6. Ghayana-kicca is the function of smelling. There are two vipaka-citta that perform ghayana-kicca, namely The ghana-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The ghana-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 7. Sayana-kicca is the function of tasting. There are two vipaka-citta that perform sayana-kicca, namely The jivha-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The jivha-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 8. Phussana-kicca is the function of knowing bodysense contact. There are two vipaka-citta that perform phussana-kicca, namely The kaya-vinnana akusala-vipaka-citta The kaya-vinnana kusala-vipaka-citta 9. Sampaticchanna-kicca is the function of receiving arammana from the davi-panca-vinnana There are two vipaka-Citta that perform sampaticchanna-kicca, namely The sampaticchanna akusala-vipaka-citta The sampaticchanna kusala-vipaka-citta 10. Santirana-kicca is the function of examining arammana appearing through the five dvara. There are three vipaka-Citta that perform santirana-kicca, namely The upekkha-santirana akusala-vipaka-citta The upekkha-santirana kusala-vipaka-citta The somanassa-santirana kusala-vipaka-citta 11. Votthabbana-kicca is the function of determining the arammana to make one of the kinds of javana-citta arise through the panca-dvara. The citta that performs this function is the kiriya-citta, the mano-dvaravajjana-citta. 12. Javana-kicca is the function of running through the arammana or absorbing the arammana. There are 55 citta that perform javana-kicca, namely 12 akusala-citta 1 ahetuka-citta (hasituppada-citta) 8 kamavacara-kusala-citta 8 kamavacara-kiriya-citta 5 rupa-vacara-kusala-citta 5 rupa-vacara-kiriya-citta 4 arupa-vacara-kusala-citta 4 arupa-vacara-kiriya-citta 8 lokuttara-citta 13. Tadalambana-kicca is the function of knowing the arammana in continuation from the javana-citta. There are 11 vipaka-citta that perform tadalambana-kicca, namely 3 santirana-citta 8 kamavacara sahetuka kusala-vipaka-citta 14. Cuti-kicca is the function of leaving that being, that lifetime. When the cuti-citta that had arisen to do its duty of leaving that lifetime and fallen away, death occurs, completely ending that state of being that person. The citta that perform cuti-kicca are the 19 vipaka-citta of the same kind as the patisandhi-citta and the bhavanga-citta. When a certain kind of vipaka-citta had performed the patisandhi-kicca, that very same kind of vipaka-citta would perform the bhavanga-kicca and the cuti-kicca also. Altogether 89 kinds of citta perform 14 kiccas. Patisandhi-citta assembles the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma for which there are paccaya to arise and evolve in a being, in a lifetime, according to the strength and type of the specific patisandhi-citta. The citta that perform the function of patisandhi in the 11 kama-bhumi are the 10 vipaka-citta comprising The upekkha-santirana akusala-vipaka-citta The upekkha-santirana kusala-vipaka-citta The 8 kamavacara sahetuka kusala-vipaka-citta (maha-vipaka) The upekkha-santirana-akusala-vipaka-citta is the result of an akusala-kamma that performs the patisandhi-kicca in the four apaya-bhumi or birth in hell, birth as a peta, birth as an asurakaya, or birth as an animal. The upekkha-santirana-kusala-vipaka-citta is the result of kusala-kamma of a weaker kind that performs the patisandhi-kicca in the human plane and the lowest plane of heaven, the Jatumaharajika, with the interference of akusala kamma, which causes innate disabilities, such as madness, muteness, blindness and deafness. The 8 maha-vipaka-citta perform the function of patisandhi in the human and 6 heavenly planes according to the strength and sublimity of the specific kusala-kamma. The 5 rupa-vacara-vipaka-citta perform the function of patisandhi in the 15 rupa-brahma planes according to the level of the specific rupa-vacara-kusala, which are the causes. The 4 arupa-vacara-vipaka-citta perform the function of patisandhi in the 4 arupa-brahma planes according to the level of the specific arupa-vacara-kusala, which are the causes. As to the 11 citta that perform tadalambana-kicca, they can only arise in the sequence of kama-javana-vithi in the kama-bhumi, never in a higher plane, such as the rupa-brahma- or the arupa-brahma-bhumi. There are 2 kinds of citta, the upekkha-santirana-akusala-vipaka-citta and the upekkha-santirana-kusala-vipaka-citta, that can perform 5 functions. There are 8 kinds of citta, the maha-vipaka-citta, that can perform 4 functions. There are 9 kinds of citta, the 5 rupa-vacara-vipaka-citta and the 4 arupa-vacara-vipaka-Citta, that can perform 3 functions. There are 2 kinds of citta, the mano-dvaravajjana-citta and somanassa-santirana-kusala-vipaka-citta, that can perform 2 functions. All the rest of the citta can only perform one specific function. These are just the summary of parts of the 'Summary'! For a more thorough explanation, read the rest of Part II and see if you do not agree with anything, then we can discuss the problem. You will see that all the explanations are from the tipitaka or the commentaries, and not beyond comprehension, it's even kind of fun! Enjoy! ( advanced section, Summary...) Amara ______________________________________________________ 205 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 2:49pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >These are just the summary of parts of the 'Summary'! For a more thorough >explanation, read the rest of Part II and see if you do not agree with >anything, then we can discuss the problem. You will see that all the >explanations are from the tipitaka or the commentaries, and not beyond >comprehension, it's even kind of fun! >Enjoy! ( advanced section, Summary...) >Amara Amara, Some people have a wierd idea of fun! Getting back to the Kammasakata-Nana, I also found the article interesting. What translation would you give for that term? I have not come across it before. jonothan ______________________________________________________ 206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Helping elderly parents >Our limits and our successes and failures are just thinking (a story), due >to the rising and falling away of cita/cetasika. Every moment has its >characteristic that can be known and the story that they are creating >distracts from knowing the moment for what it is. If the moments of dosa >or >lobha etc. do not arise, then how can there be contemplation and eventual >understanding of their characteristics? The stories that cita/cetasiaka >create can be confusing, the characteristics of each moment are not. Is >the >answer found in manipulating the story to make it different from what it is >or understand the moments ( kusala or akusala) that create the story? >Ivan Ivan I agree. And I think that thinking in terms of success or failure has in particular a large element of mana to it ie, a particlar type of lobha citta. Otherwise the association with/lack of association with the desired would be just that and the 'story' would be so much less. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 207 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:37pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless >There is a lot in the suttas about leading the HOMELESS life. Does anyone >know what this means? Also there was a disciple who never slept in the same >place twice, what is the achievment of this? > >Cheers, Alan Alan, I believe it refers, on one level, to the fact that use of the requisites is restricted by the rules of the Order, and on another level, as Robert has said, to renunciation of/lack of attachment to one's "own" place and family. On the other point (not sleeping in the same place twice), I suppose it reflects his adherence to certain dhutanga's. Not recommended for lay people! How does the question arise? jonothan ______________________________________________________ 208 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 3:43pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Robert's article >Thank you for the kind words Amara. If anyone has time >to read it and can give some comments and criticism I >would much appreciate it. Robert Have just read your article. Interesting and well-written. You have a good style. Do keep up the writing. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 209 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 4:05pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Health/Caught up in the story >Dear Jonothon, >I am very happy to hear about the progress in your >health. >Robert Robert, Thanks for that. We were surprised at the extent of the apparent improvement. On the question of health, I have just spoken to Nina in Nakorn Phanom. She left hospital yesterday after an 8-day stay. Fractured pelvic bone and fractures to left hand and right arm. Needs a walking frame to get around. Obviously in some discomfort still, but hopeful for a good receovery. (Her driver fell asleep at the wheel.) For those who don't know Nina, she was a regular attender at Khun Sujin discussions in Bangkok back in the mid-late 70's. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 210 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 5:38pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear Mike and Amara, Great to see you both getting into some meaty stuff. Please keep it up! To a lot of people this type of topic seems too theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is direct experience of the present moment then why mess around thinking about such difficult things(so many technical terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some have the tendency to study and practice. Others prefer less study. But I find that most of us need to know the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as they help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. The Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta (one who has listened much) just out of endearment. A couple of points: Mike - Most of your reply was fine. But rupa is not included within nama-dhamma. As insight develops the characteristics of the various types of dhammas are more and more clearly experienced. At the first stage of vipassana , Namarupa parrichedda -nana it is clearly seen (as the scriptures explain) that nama is an entirely different type of reality from rupa. The Buddha classified dhammas in different ways: the five KHANDAS, the AYATANAS, and the DHATUS. These are different ways of classifying nama and rupa. When we learn about the 5 khandas nama is classified as citta, vedana, sankhara, and sanna. This detailed way of considering nama helps us to distinguish the varied characteristics of namas more clearly.If we consider the ayatanas (usually translated as sense fields)then rupa is explained in more detail - thus it helps us to distinguish the various characteristics and functions of rupa. With the dhatus, elements, both nama and rupa are classified in detail. None of these classifications are philosophical devices - they are descriptions of dhammas. They point directly at what is real and happening now ( I know you understand this but it is useful to repeat it for anyone who may be beginning Buddhist studies and it also reminds me to study dhammas directly). On the topic of Bhavanga here are some notes that I have from a new book by Sujin Boriharnwanaket - Realities and Concepts - that will be published in Bangkok next month. Here she briefly explains the difference between vitthi cittas and bhavanga cittas. What is important to remember is that all these cittas - whether bhavanga or vitthi are happening at this moment. No one can control them(in fact how many people have even the slightest inkling of their function and characteristic let alone having any control over them).. "Sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas: When a sense object, which is rúpa, impinges on one of the sensedoors, it is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense-door process. Counting from the "past bhavanga", there are seventeen moments of citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. Rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and thus it falls away when that process is over. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1.atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga). 2.bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga). 3.bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga), the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door. 4.five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pañcadvåråvajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta. 5.sense-cognition (dvi-pañcaviññåùa, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipåkacitta. 6.receiving-consciousness (sampaìicchana-citta), which is vipåkacitta. 7. investigating-consciousness (santírana-citta) which is vipåkacitta. 8.determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta. 9-15 seven javana-cittas ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats). 16.registering-consciousness (tadårammaùa-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipåka citta. 17. registering-consciousness. After a sense object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind-door, and then that object has just fallen away. Before the mind-door process begins there are bhavanga-cittas and the last two of these are specifically designated by a name. There are the following cittas: bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) bhavangupaccheda (which is, in this case, the mind-door through which the cittas of the mind-door process will experience the object) mind-door-adverting-consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana-citta) which is kiriyacitta Seven javana-cittas Two tadårammaùa-cittas (which may or may not arise). After the mind-door process has been completed there are bhavanga-cittas again. The cittas of the eye-door process, namely the eye-door adverting-consciousness, seeing-consciousness, receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness, determining-consciousness, the javana-cittas and the tadålambana-cittas (retention), experience visible object which has not fallen away yet. They do not have a concept as object. The cittas of the ear-door process experience sound which has not fallen away yet, they do not have a concept as object. It is the same with the cittas of the nose-door process, the tongue-door process and the body-door process. When the víthi-cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are cittas of the mind-door process. The first series of cittas of the mind-door process which arise after a sense-door process experience a sense object which has only just fallen away, they do not have a concept as object. In each series of mind-door process cittas there are two or three kinds of víthi-cittas, namely: one moment of mind-door adverting-consciousness, seven moments of javana-cittas and two moments of tadålambana-cittas. When the first series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away, there are many bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there is a another series of mind-door process cittas, which can have as object a concept (such as shape and form, or the image of something as a “whole”) on account of a sense object. When this series of mind-door process cittas has fallen away there are bhavanga-cittas in between, and then there are more rounds of mind-door process cittas which follow. They know the meaning of something, they know words and names. In between the different series there are bhavanga-cittas. When we know that we see people or different things, the citta experiences a concept, not a paramattha dhamma which is rúpa. The object which is a paramattha dhamma appearing through the eyes are only different colours. When the víthi-cittas of the mind-door process know that there are beings, people and different things, then the cittas have paññattis, concepts, as object. They know what a particular thing is." Robert 211 From: amara chay Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 0:07pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >Getting back to the Kammasakata-Nana, I also found the article interesting. >What translation would you give for that term? I have not come across it >before. Jonothan, Most of the terms now have their proper translation juxtaposed in brackets now, (with the help of Robert!) if you'll look it over again on the net, but kammasako= one has one's own kamma; and nana is of course knowledge starting with the nama rupa pariccedayana realizatioon onwards. Do take a look at our 'new+improved' article, you'll find it a lot easier to read, and -- fun too!?! Sorry, my lobha is showing! Amara ______________________________________________________ 212 From: amara chay Date: Sat Mar 25, 2000 0:12pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Homeless Alan, It just crossed my mind that the term 'anagami' also means one without a home. Could you perhaps share with us one of the suttas you mentioned? Amara ______________________________________________________ 213 From: Mike Potter Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 3:25am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Robert, Thank you for your thorough reply. Sujin Boriharnwanaket's description of the sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas is the clearest I've ever read and cleared up some subtle points for me (e.g., the precise way in which the mind-door process is conditioned by the sense-door process in conceptualizing sensory stimula, and the role of each citta in such processes). It is rare to see explanations with such attention to detail and with such clarity. I'm looking forward to reading her new book. Will you announce when/where it is available? Mike robert kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike and Amara, > Great to see you both getting into some meaty stuff. > Please keep it up! > To a lot of people this type of topic seems too > theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is direct > experience of the present moment then why mess around > thinking about such difficult things(so many technical > terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some > have the tendency to study and practice. Others prefer > less study. But I find that most of us need to know > the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as they > help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. The > Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta (one > who has listened much) just out of endearment. > 214 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 10:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities and Concepts by Sujin Boriharnwanaket Dear Mike and everyone, I have a copy on file of Realties and Concepts and am sending it to Alan weller to put on his site (assuming he wants to). I am going to pick up a hundred or so paper copies when I visit Thailand in late August and intend to mail these to anyone who wants a copy - you can have as many as you want. It is an important book . Only 65 pages but so pithy and yet clear enough for those who already have a background in Buddhism. Lodewijk, Nina van Gorkoms husband, read the manuscript a couple of years ago and considered it so vital that he suggested Nina should summarize it and put the summary as an introduction to some of her books. But I gather that this is not easily done. A section or two could be left out but that still leaves over 30 pages- still too long for an introduction. By the way Khun Sujin is visiting California next month and will be speaking at some Thai temples as well as meeting with small groups. If you happen to live in America it is a good opportunity to meet and ask any questions you might have. Also I heard rumours of a trip to Sri lanka in late december - I want to go if that is on and will ask my mother to join up too. Have you heard anything about this Khun Amara? Robert --- Mike Potter wrote: > > Robert, > > Thank you for your thorough reply. Sujin > Boriharnwanaket's description > of the sense-door process and mind-door process of > cittas is the > clearest I've ever read and cleared up some subtle > points for me (e.g., > the precise way in which the mind-door process is > conditioned by the > sense-door process in conceptualizing sensory > stimula, and the role of > each citta in such processes). > It is rare to see explanations with such attention > to detail and with > such clarity. I'm looking forward to reading her > new book. Will you > announce when/where it is available? > > Mike 215 From: Mike Potter Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 10:52am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Realities and Concepts by Sujin Boriharnwanaket Dear Robert, I would gladly put a copy on my site (The Ganges Sangha). It would be a welcome addition to the Abhidhamma Resources collected there. If you think that would be suitable, please send it on. Also, if you or any of the other list members have any further suggestions for my Abhidhamma Resources page, I would be grateful to hear from you. You can check out the page at http://personal.mem.bells/ outh.net/mem/m/i/mikep/abhidham.html Mike robert kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike and everyone, > I have a copy on file of Realties and Concepts and am > sending it to Alan weller to put on his site (assuming > he wants to). I am going to pick up a hundred or so > paper copies when I visit Thailand in late August and > intend to mail these to anyone who wants a copy - you > can have as many as you want. > > It is an important book . Only 65 pages but so pithy > and yet clear enough for those who already have a > background in Buddhism. Lodewijk, Nina van Gorkoms > husband, read the manuscript a couple of years ago and > considered it so vital that he suggested Nina should > summarize it and put the summary as an introduction to > some of her books. But I gather that this is not > easily done. A section or two could be left out but > that still leaves over 30 pages- still too long for an > introduction. > > By the way Khun Sujin is visiting California next > month and will be speaking at some Thai temples as > well as meeting with small groups. If you happen to > live in America it is a good opportunity to meet and > ask any questions you might have. > > Also I heard rumours of a trip to Sri lanka in late > december - I want to go if that is on and will ask my > mother to join up too. Have you heard anything about > this Khun Amara? > > > Robert > 216 From: amara chay Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 4:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: K. S.'s trips and talks >By the way Khun Sujin is visiting California next >month and will be speaking at some Thai temples as >well as meeting with small groups. If you happen to >live in America it is a good opportunity to meet and >ask any questions you might have. > >Also I heard rumours of a trip to Sri lanka in late >december - I want to go if that is on and will ask my >mother to join up too. Have you heard anything about >this Khun Amara? Dear friends in the dhamma, The itinerary of the California trip is in the 'newsletter' section at , please check on it now and then because there might be some changes later on. As soon as I receive the dates and details of her Sri Lanka trip I will put that up as well, but yes, there definitely is something planned, and she will be glad to hear that your mother will be coming with you, Robert! Amara ______________________________________________________ 217 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 0:20am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Dear Amara, I am interested in getting a tape of one or more of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's Dhamma talks. How can I order them? Is there a catalog? If not, perhaps the one referred to by Jonothon would be a good place to start. Mike PS. I was so impressed by the excerpt from "Realities and Concepts" that Robert shared with us that I put it on my website under Abhidhamma Resources and linked to the DS Advanced page for more of her writings. I am glad that I found this list and the rich resources that are available here through those of you who are so willing and eager to share the Dhamma. Thank you! "amara chay" wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/?start=1 63 > (I would also like to > >order a > >copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.) > Jonothan, > I will be getting my copy tomorrow, will make you one and send it to you > myself. 218 From: amara chay Date: Sun Mar 26, 2000 5:48pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG >I am interested in getting a tape of one or more of Sujin >Boriharnwanaket's Dhamma talks. How can I order them? Is there a >catalog? If not, perhaps the one referred to by Jonothon would be a >good place to start. >PS. I was so impressed by the excerpt from "Realities and Concepts" >that Robert shared with us that I put it on my website under Abhidhamma >Resources and linked to the DS Advanced page for more of her writings. >I am glad that I found this list and the rich resources that are >available here through those of you who are so willing and eager to >share the Dhamma. Thank you! Mike, Anumodana with your kusala cetana. When we started the website we thought that even if only one person would profit from it in any way, it would already be worth all our effort, so in a way you have already fulfilled part of our aim. The other part is to digitize all books ever published by the foundation and make them available on the site, as well as provide the vocal recordings on line, the latter of which is still being studied. The third aim is precisely what you were asking about, books and tapes for purchase, though the lists are still being prepared with some difficulty because of some internal rules of the foundation, I regret to say. I'm sorry we sound so disorganized, but personally I only handle the web side of it! The tape Jonothan got was in Thai, none of Khun Sujin's (as we call her here at DSDG) tapes have been translated yet to my knowledge (there are thousands, from which the materials for her books were taken) although Jonothan and Robert might be able to get you some tapes where she was speaking in English, mostly in discussions they or their friends had with her. Nina van Gorkom might also be able to provide you with some English tapes. But generally I think the deeper teachings on the Abhidhamma were in Thai. If you have time, I would really recommend you take Robert's advice and join some of the discussions she will be attending in America, and ask her whatever you want, she enjoys questions about the dhamma more than anything and I myself have never met anyone who could answer my questions with, as you observed in so short a time, such clarity and precision. She was born to be a teacher of the dhamma, (which is such an intricate and complex affair that the Buddha almost decided against teaching it at all, remember?), has been tirelessly teaching it for over forty years, nearly half a century, and in my opinion, any chance to listen to her in person should not be missed. And take a amall recorder, everyone wants to record her wonderful voice themselves, and no one will stop you from doing so, they will rather encourage you to! You will find that she is a lovely person in person, as well as an incomparable teacher. She makes learning a pleasure, at least for me! Amara ______________________________________________________ 219 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 28, 2000 0:18am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear Robert, Mike, Amara,, I'd like to encourage you all in yr 'meaty' chats.....Personally, I think it's helpful and 'healthy' to have the 'meaty' and the less 'meaty' and both are very welcome and very useful! I find it helpful to remember that the purpose of so many different classifications and especially of classifications of the same realities in different ways is to help us understand the 'anattaness' of all realities...different classifications help different people to appreciate this. This is the real purpose of the study of abhidhamma..to eliminate wrong view and help us develop more understanding of ' not self now' ! Keep up the good work! Sarah > >Dear Mike and Amara, >Great to see you both getting into some meaty stuff. >Please keep it up! >To a lot of people this type of topic seems too >theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is direct >experience of the present moment then why mess around >thinking about such difficult things(so many technical >terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some >have the tendency to study and practice. Others prefer >less study. But I find that most of us need to know >the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as they >help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. The >Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta (one >who has listened much) just out of endearment. ______________________________________________________ 220 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 4:52pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear sarah, Right, it helps us to understand anatta intellectually. More importantly each term in the Abhidhamma points directly to an actual reality, its function and its characteristic. Without knowing something of Abhidhamma, Dhamma practice is like wandering in a forest looking for something but knowing what. If we apply the knowledge of Abhidhamma correctly we see that every tree, every plant, every leaf and even the ground we walk on is a treasure. The classifications are precise descriptions of different aspects of realities. Unfortunately some who study Abhidhamma miss the point. They may be very sincere but tend to see it as a sort of academic study lke chemistry. They think that if they can sort it all out in a systematic way then panna (wisdom) will somehow pop up. They consider the Dhamma but never get around to really testing it- this is one extreme. Thus teachers such as Khun Sujin have to repeat again and again that the descriptions apply to realities that are appearing now. On the other hand some are put off by the seeming technicality of Abhidhamma and once they have some intellectual acceptance of anatta they think this is sufficient knowledge. From then on all they want to do is study dhammas, realities, directly. But I think this can also be an extreme. The Abhidhamma is just so complete: by continuing to learn more, at the same time that we apply the teachings directly, we may well find that the Abhidhamma very naturally inclines the mind to understand and experience different aspects of dhammas. Aspects that might remain hidden if it were not for the additional study. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear Robert, Mike, Amara,, > I'd like to encourage you all in yr 'meaty' > chats.....Personally, I think > it's helpful and 'healthy' to have the 'meaty' and > the less 'meaty' and both > are very welcome and very useful! > > I find it helpful to remember that the purpose of so > many different > classifications and especially of classifications of > the same realities in > different ways is to help us understand the > 'anattaness' of all > realities...different classifications help different > people to appreciate > this. This is the real purpose of the study of > abhidhamma..to eliminate > wrong view and help us develop more understanding of > ' not self now' ! Keep > up the good work! > > Sarah > > > >Dear Mike and Amara, > >Great to see you both getting into some meaty > stuff. > >Please keep it up! > >To a lot of people this type of topic seems too > >theoretical. If the real heart of the matter is > direct > >experience of the present moment then why mess > around > >thinking about such difficult things(so many > technical > >terms!). It depends partly on accumulations- some > >have the tendency to study and practice. Others > prefer > >less study. But I find that most of us need to know > >the details of the Abhidhamma to some extent, as > they > >help to untangle the more obvious knots of view. > The > >Buddha didn't call enlightened people Bahusutta > (one > >who has listened much) just out of endearment. 221 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 5:09pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sri Lanka Dear group, It seems that there will be a Dhamma trip to Sri lanka at the end of this year or early next year. Not certain yet . The last time Khun Sujin went was before the violence started - about 20 years ago. But it seems that it was a beneficial trip for many people. I read that the President of Sri lanka at that time, Premadasa(since killed by a bomb)opened the meeting. It might be worthwhile considering how we can help as many people benefit this time. It is probably unwise to invite any politicians with the current situation- at least in an official capacity. But perhaps we can contact some sri lankan monks or known scholars of Buddhism so that they can be involved? For those who went on the last trip it might be worthwhile contacting old friends there? Also we should perhaps think of stocking up with many English copies of Ninas writings- most educated peole have no problem with English in Sri Lanka. Perhaps we can start a fund to print some for free distribution? They are always printing books in Thailand but somehow they always seem to run out of the English editions. This is all slightly premature, considering the dates are not finalised, so consider it food for thought. Robert __________________________________________________ 222 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 9:04pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas Dear Robert, I concur. One must be skillful in one's practice - to balance conceptual knowledge with practical application so that the often subtle realities can reveal themselves to one's direct experience through the development of wisdom. As Sarah has said, the "meaty" and the "non-meaty" must be balanced - for the meaty is in the non-meaty, and the non-meaty is in the meaty. It may be helpful to remember that even the Abhidhamma is only the raft, and must not be clung to if one is to reach the other shore. Yet it facilitates a smoother and more direct journey than would be possible without it. Studying the Abhidhamma has deepened my practice tremendously. Yet the practice itself is so much more; it requires the skillful application and balancing of all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is through the diligent application of these path factors that wisdom arises. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a wonderful book on the Noble Eightfold Path. His last chapter on Wisdom describes how the path factors converge, in mutual support for and with one another, into the four supramundane paths which perform the special task of eradicating the defilements. You can view this chapter at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/mis c/waytoend.html#ch8 Mike > On the other hand some are put off by the seeming > technicality of Abhidhamma and once they have some > intellectual acceptance of anatta they think this is > sufficient knowledge. From then on all they want to do > is study dhammas, realities, directly. But I think > this can also be an extreme. The Abhidhamma is just so > complete: by continuing to learn more, at the same > time that we apply the teachings directly, we may well > find that the Abhidhamma very naturally inclines the > mind to understand and experience different aspects of > dhammas. Aspects that might remain hidden if it were > not for the additional study. 223 From: Bev Westheimer Date: Tue Mar 21, 2000 1:26am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] re: our mana boost at DS On Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:52 AM, amara chay wrote: > >Date: 19-Mar-2000 10:52:39 >From: amara chay >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] our mana boost at DS > >Dear Group, > >You might like to see what one of our readers (evidently a great dhamma >reader!) wrote in our guestbook at DS , the >section called 'From Our Readers', then click on the 'guestbook' sign with >the flowers! > >I am correcting the English spelling mistakes with the invaluable help of >Tom, who has also helped me cut the loading time by at least 30% (by using >the services of a free website called Website Garage, > for those interested), >which I am sure will please our regular visitors. > >My mother will be seeing K. Sujin on the 9th, I will see if we have time to >show her the improvements as well as our latest additions, and of course the >guestbook! > >With lots of lobha as well as chanda (and a tiny bit of sati?), >Amara >______________________________________________________ > Amara: Tom has downloaded the article for me to "edit" ... I am not sure exactly what you would like me to do because on first very quick reading it seems pretty good -- they are some little things , for example: instead of saying "fast asleep" one would say "asleep" and instead of saying "wake up" it might me better to say "awake", but I don't know if that is what you are looking for, as in some ways they are "trivial" corrections. Anyway, let me know 224 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 4:55pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Bhavanga-cittas >Without knowing >something of Abhidhamma, Dhamma practice is like >wandering in a forest looking for something but >knowing what. If we apply the knowledge of Abhidhamma >correctly we see that every tree, every plant, every >leaf and even the ground we walk on is a treasure. I don't quite agree with Robert here, I think the direct experience is absolutely essential to the study of realities, with the right understanding of realities as they really are, I think it can go beyond classifications, how else can people who only hear one word of the dhamma become enlightened? Where would they have had the time to classify anything if not through the direct experiencing through sati patthana of the immediate moment? With the right understanding when you walk through the woods, you really see things as they are without calling them anything, which doesn't mean you don't see their true nature; it's just that you can't communicate with anyone about it because you don't know the technical terms. And of course there days it may require much more study to be able to attain any level of knowledge. The technical terms are essential when you want to find out more in every detail possible theoretically as well as through direct experience, then you learn the language in order to understand the explanations. But if you cannot relate the knowledge to ralities all you have are lists of Pali terms, numbers and descriptions -- but when lobha arises you don't realize if it is accompanied by moha or ditthi or neither. Those whose sati arises to know that instant of citta would be able to distinquish this to some extent but would not know how to describe their feelings or tell you how deep their sati was, they just know it. One set back I think is that before realization arises of the true nature of things, one is prone to uncertainty as to the characteristics of, for example, the eyedoor, the seeing and the object seen, and one would be without the support of the intricate theoretical description the Buddha was alone in the world to have given. As Sarah said, the ideal situation would be to have both, with as much of each as is suited to the individual's accumulations. Amara ______________________________________________________ 225 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 5:08pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sri Lanka >It might be worthwhile considering how we can help as >many people benefit this time. It is probably unwise >to invite any politicians with the current situation- >at least in an official capacity. But perhaps we can >contact some sri lankan monks or known scholars of >Buddhism so that they can be involved? For those who >went on the last trip it might be worthwhile >contacting old friends there? Also we should perhaps >think of stocking up with many English copies of Ninas >writings- most educated peole have no problem with >English in Sri Lanka. Perhaps we can start a fund to >print some for free distribution? They are always >printing books in Thailand but somehow they always >seem to run out of the English editions. >This is all slightly premature, considering the dates >are not finalised, so consider it food for thought. >Robert Robert, What a great idea, it is very thoughtful of you to prepare in advance! Please let me know if I can help, although Kanha will probably be handling most of the printing side as always. Why don't you tell K.S. about it already so that the English books they are printing for the opening of the foundation building could perhaps be done in greater number to include ones to be taken to S.L.? That would be much simpler than to reprint them later on, I would think. As for other books you might want to take along, you can arrange them later, but these are being done now, so you'd bettr contact them right away. Amara ______________________________________________________ 226 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 27, 2000 5:51pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: re: our mana boost at DS >Amara: Tom has downloaded the article for me to "edit" ... I am not sure >exactly what you would like me to do because on first very quick reading >it seems pretty good -- they are some little things , for example: >instead of saying "fast asleep" one would say "asleep" and instead of >saying "wake up" it might me better to say "awake", but I don't know if >that is what you are looking for, as in some ways they are "trivial" >corrections. Anyway, let me know Bev, Would it be all right if I asked you to do something else for the moment? Could you please look over our latest translations of K. S.'s book parts 4,5, and 7 which I will send you via e-mail attachments, for any mistakes and improvement to be done before I put it in the website? The ones you were looking at could be done later, generally it would only be spell checking, I didn't want the mistakes to be taken for some Pali words. But these new articles were translated by me and I need to see if you can understand the language as well as the content. Please look for them in your e-mail attachment, I will send them right away. Amara ______________________________________________________ 227 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:24pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sri Lanka Robert, I went with K.Sujin to Sri lanka in 77 and 79. both visits were organised by Capt Pereira and a lot of large fairly formal gatherings were arranged. we left all the arrangements to the Sri lankans and it was really a visit for them and the small group of Westerners accompanying K.Sujin (only Nina and myself in 77). If K.Sujin goes this time it will be quite different - there will be a very large number of Thais going too and I'm sure it will be a Thai organised trip so there won't be any question of sessions being opened by Prime ministers.....! Funny, i was reading yr note and there were conditions to think about Bhikkhu Bodhi who attended a few of the talks in kandy and then mike's reference to his book a little later. In terms of distribution of good dhamma writings for the Sri lankans, we have always felt strongly that one of the best long-term channels is the BPS (Buddhist publication Society) in Sri lanka. They have a great distribution network....we've been members for decades. The publications are very reasonable in price and Bhikkhu Bodhi (in charge) is extremely hard-working. He is very familiar with Nina's writings and is always keen to receive articles for Wheel or the smaller leaflets....a few of Nina's have been printed here. The more the better I think.. they all help to eliminate wrong view! When we last saw him, we spent two hours talking to him about getting 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' printed by the BPS. He wanted to make some editorial changes and we worked out what we thought were acceptable compromises that didn't affect the content adversely. Nina, however, didn't want any changes (understandably), so it was left... He's a very busy bhikkhu but I'm thinking I should at least send him the info about this list..... I'm also reminded that it was in Sri lanka 79 that I met Jonothan and Amara for the first time, along w/ Susie, Jill, Helen (Azita now)... - all those conditioned stories....we hear a sound, or in this case see a visible object and off they go.....!> Sarah > >Dear group, >It seems that there will be a Dhamma trip to Sri lanka >at the end of this year or early next year. Not >certain yet >. >The last time Khun Sujin went was before the violence >started - about 20 years ago. But it seems that it was >a beneficial trip for many people. I read that the >President of Sri lanka at that time, Premadasa(since >killed by a bomb)opened the meeting. >It might be worthwhile considering how we can help as >many people benefit this time. It is probably unwise >to invite any politicians with the current situation- >at least in an official capacity. But perhaps we can >contact some sri lankan monks or known scholars of >Buddhism so that they can be involved? For those who >went on the last trip it might be worthwhile >contacting old friends there? Also we should perhaps >think of stocking up with many English copies of Ninas >writings- most educated peole have no problem with >English in Sri Lanka. Perhaps we can start a fund to >print some for free distribution? They are always >printing books in Thailand but somehow they always >seem to run out of the English editions. >This is all slightly premature, considering the dates >are not finalised, so consider it food for thought. >Robert ______________________________________________________ 228 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:33pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Mike, acutually there are a lot of excellent tapes in English w/K.Sujin- I have found them invaluable. Alan has been distributing copies through the 'Triple Gem Press' and I presume is still doing this. I suggest you contact him to get copies. Sarah p.s. Robert or Rosan, I'm just wondering if Alan is o.k. as we haven't heard from him here for ages & he hasn't reponded to qus which is so unlike him....let me know if you're in touch w/him! Hopefully just busy w/babies and work!> > >Dear Amara, > >I am interested in getting a tape of one or more of Sujin >Boriharnwanaket's Dhamma talks. How can I order them? Is there a >catalog? If not, perhaps the one referred to by Jonothon would be a >good place to start. > >Mike > >PS. I was so impressed by the excerpt from "Realities and Concepts" >that Robert shared with us that I put it on my website under Abhidhamma >Resources and linked to the DS Advanced page for more of her writings. >I am glad that I found this list and the rich resources that are >available here through those of you who are so willing and eager to >share the Dhamma. Thank you! > > >"amara chay" wrote: > >original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/dhammastudygroup/?start=1 >63 > > (I would also like to > > >order a > > >copy of the tape when it becomes available, if possible.) > > Jonothan, > > I will be getting my copy tomorrow, will make you one and send it to >you > > myself. ______________________________________________________ 229 From: amara chay Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 3:15am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sri Lanka >If K.Sujin goes this time it will be quite different - there will be >a >very large number of Thais going too and I'm sure it will be a Thai > >organised trip so there won't be any question of sessions being >opened >by Prime ministers.....! Dear friends in the dhamma, K. S. told me that this time it will also be organized by a Sri Lankan friend, though I don't know about the prime ministers. But the trip is fully booked and at present there is a waiting list, so you had better contact K. Duangduen as quickly as you can. Another problem is the dangerous situation, which might cause a complete change of plans- they might be going to Cambodia instead, which might be a good chance for those interested to visit Ankor Wat. She says that she will come to the decision after the U.S. trip. Last time she went to Cambodia, there was Sihanouk's wife on the same flight, and there was a huge crowd at the airport, all in white, and as they got off the plane, they all sat down. To everyone's great surprise, they were there to greet K.S., and let the beautiful French born Queen pass practically unnoticed! Her radio programs are the only dhamma programs in Cambodia, as far as I know. As soon as I get the programs, or the changes in the programs or whatever, I will post it on the website, so, I hate to have to keep asking everyone, please check on it from time to time! ( newsletter section) Amara ______________________________________________________ 230 From: amara chay Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 3:33am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG >acutually there are a lot of excellent tapes in English w/K.Sujin- I have >found them invaluable. Alan has been distributing copies through the >'Triple Gem Press' and I presume is still doing this. I suggest you contact >him to get copies. Mike, I agree completely. They might not seem to be addressing the abhidhamma directly, but what is the dhamma if not about realities, about our beings, about the world in which we live? K. S. is not only the greatest teacher I know of the abhidhamma, but she can relate that to the ralities of each moment of our lives in an unrefutable manner, for, as she says, what is there in the world right now but citta, cetasika and rupa? They will not only explain pali terms to you but teach you about life itself. Amara ______________________________________________________ 231 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 11:14pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG Amara, I mostly agree. In addition I would comment that the more understanding there is of abhidhamma, the more one realises it's not about lists and memorising but about seeing now, not self, vipaka citta, about hearing etc...as you say, about citta, cetasika and rupa which can be experienced at this moment. This is abhidhamma, and when we say we need an understanding of abhidhamma in order to read the suttas or to understand them at least, it is understanding the conditioned nature of the different realities we refer to and understanding the difference between concepts and realities. Thus, whenever I listen to k.Sujin, whatever realities she is discussing, she is addressing abhidhamma very directly. As you said in yr earlier message, it depends on accumulations what questions arise or what theoretical knowledge is needed. Other factors such as the cultural background or age will also affect what is aapropriate to read or hear, but we've discussed that before. I do howver think, that unlike some of those who had the good fortune to be born at the time of the Buddha (so much accumulated wisdom from previous lives), we all need to hear, read and consider A LOT! Sarah >Mike, >I agree completely. They might not seem to be addressing the abhidhamma >directly, but what is the dhamma if not about realities, about our beings, >about the world in which we live? K. S. is not only the greatest teacher I >know of the abhidhamma, but she can relate that to the ralities of each >moment of our lives in an unrefutable manner, for, as she says, what is >there in the world right now but citta, cetasika and rupa? They will not >only explain pali terms to you but teach you about life itself. >Amara ______________________________________________________ 232 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 11:38pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Re:Following Asoka's Footsteps Robert, I'm just going over some old messages i missed when the computer broke down. This group is a source of such good info. I was delighted to read about the below change of name..I'd been saying for ages how inaappropriate 'propagation' sounded...sounds like I wasn't alone! I really appreciate all the hard work you and Alan and Amara and others are going to in order to get these books published. Sarah > >dear alan, >I just read over the message about sponsoring in >Taking refuge .._ It is great. > >Recently I received the proofs of Realities and >Concepts . The inside cover says published by Dhamma >Study and Support Foundation. >I was at a meeting with Khun sujin and others last >year and we discussed the name. Many people didn't >like propagation and Ivan suggested changing it to >support - which I strongly agreed with. Apparently >this has been finalized as I didn't mention anything >to the printers yet the new name is on the book. > >Once I go to thailand I will gather a few hundred >copies to bring back to japan. We can then announce on >the internet that these are available for free >distribution. >Robert > > ______________________________________________________ 233 From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID= Date: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:47pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG >Mike, >acutually there are a lot of excellent tapes in English w/K.Sujin- I have >found them invaluable. Alan has been distributing copies through the 'Triple >Gem Press' and I presume is still doing this. I suggest you contact him to >get copies. > >Sarah > >p.s. Robert or Rosan, I'm just wondering if Alan is o.k. as we haven't heard >from him here for ages & he hasn't reponded to qus which is so unlike >him....let me know if you're in touch w/him! Hopefully just busy w/babies >and work!> Sarah, Hi I'm still alive, but having big problems with my computer which has already been to the repairers once and is still not okay. I am not distributing the tapes anymore as the copying was just too awkward, but I am sending Mike a few of my own tapes. Can you send me an e-mail with the details of this discussion group and I can just put the details straight on my web site? Best wishes, Alan 234 From: amara chay Date: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:24pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cambodia Dear friends in the dhamma, K.S. told me yesterday that at the Cambodian airport it was not the Queen who arrived on the same plane with her but the lady head of the UNDP with the refugee department of the UN or something like that, sorry for the mix up. She also said that if we went this time there would be no limits to the group's size because there would be enough accommodations, unlike the Sri Lanka trip. And that if we visited Ankor Wat it will be by boat, in the evening, because it is said to be very beautiful by moonlight. We also have some good news for those who liked 'Kammasakata', I have just received a transcript of some recent talks on the subject of vithi-citta which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in the site, I will inform you again. Amara ______________________________________________________ 235 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:19am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia Dear Amara, I look forward to the translation. Please keep asking about the trip so that we get a final decision on whether it is Cambodia or Sri lanka that we visit. We need to do a lot of preparation if it is Sri lanka. The accomodation is perhaps not such a problem in such a small country as Sri lanka as even if we dont stay in the same hotels we can easily meet at different places. Some of us can stay in Guest houses even if we miss out on the booked accomodation. Also please find out about the times if you can- hopefully over Christmas from Dec 18- January 10 . --- amara chay wrote: > > Dear friends in the dhamma, > K.S. told me yesterday that at the Cambodian airport > it was not the Queen > who arrived on the same plane with her but the lady > head of the UNDP with > the refugee department of the UN or something like > that, sorry for the mix > up. She also said that if we went this time there > would be no limits to the > group's size because there would be enough > accommodations, unlike the Sri > Lanka trip. And that if we visited Ankor Wat it > will be by boat, in the > evening, because it is said to be very beautiful by > moonlight. > We also have some good news for those who liked > 'Kammasakata', I have just > received a transcript of some recent talks on the > subject of vithi-citta > which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in > the site, I will inform > you again. > Amara > ______________________________________________________ 236 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:22am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Matrix Has anyone seen The Matrix? It just came out on video in Japan. Some very Buddhist themes in this movie - exciting too. Robert 237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 9:49am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia >We also have some good news for those who liked 'Kammasakata', I have just >received a transcript of some recent talks on the subject of vithi-citta >which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in the site, I will inform >you again. >Amara Amara, Looking forward to your translation of the talks on vitthi-citta. Anumodana. Jonothan ______________________________________________________ 238 From: Mike Potter Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 11:32am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] "Realities and Concepts" Now Online Dear Friends, Thanks to Robert, Kuhn Sujin's latest book, Realities and Concepts, is now online for viewing at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ (See "What's New"). It is in PDF format, so that all of the Pali accents and other formatting are retained. A link to the free Adobe Reader is provided. Mike 239 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 10:43pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cambodia >We also have some good news for those who liked 'Kammasakata', I have just >received a transcript of some recent talks on the subject of vithi-citta >which I am translating. As soon as I put it up in the site, I will inform >you again. >Amara >______________________________________________________ > Amara, only just read kammasakata....I seem to lag behind others. Very helpful and lots of useful and clear abhidhamma detail...Yr translation w/Robert's revisions seems to work very well....keep up the good team work. Sarah ______________________________________________________ 240 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 2:45pm Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG > I mostly agree. In addition I would comment that the more understanding > there is of abhidhamma, the more one realises it's not about lists and > memorising but about seeing now, not self, vipaka citta, about hearing > etc...as you say, about citta, cetasika and rupa which can be experienced at > this moment. This is abhidhamma, and when we say we need an understanding > of abhidhamma in order to read the suttas or to understand them at least, it > is understanding the conditioned nature of the different realities we refer > to and understanding the difference between concepts and realities. Sarah, The other day she also said that the abhidhamma is the key to the understanding of the Tipitaka as a whole (for example when you read the suttas it is not about this or that person but different combinations of citta, cetasika and rupa, I think). Therefore if you are to study the Tipitaka at all you should not neglect the abhidhamma, it should at least be studied together with the rest. Personally I think that studying the abhidhamma is a lot better than studying anything else or having any kind of hobby because it is a very good reminder for sati to arise while other activities might not be so conducive. Amara 241 From: amara chay Date: Fri Mar 31, 2000 7:01am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: "Realities and Concepts" Now Online >Dear Friends, > >Thanks to Robert, Kuhn Sujin's latest book, Realities and Concepts, is >now online for viewing at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ (See >"What's New"). It is in PDF format, so that all of the Pali accents >and other formatting are retained. A link to the free Adobe Reader is >provided. > >Mike Mike, Anumodana, I especially love the Pali accents, which we have never been able to reconcile with the normal browsers here at DS. So here we continue with the accentless Pali for the general public but I am very glad to have Alan's site as well as yours with the proper accents in place! Again, anumodana with both of you, Amara ______________________________________________________ 242 From: amara chay Date: Tue Apr 4, 2000 11:20am Subject: latest newsletter Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just added newsletter 4 to about the inauguration of the foundation's building, (at which 2 or 3 new books will be offered, one of which is in English) the 17th of May is also Visakhapuja Day, by the way. Amara 243 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 4, 2000 9:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] latest newsletter >I have just added newsletter 4 to about the >inauguration of the foundation's building, (at which 2 or 3 new books will >be offered, one of which is in English) the 17th of May is also Visakhapuja >Day, by the way. >Amara Amara, Thanks for keeping us up to date. We look forward to hearing about the occasion (and the dhamma duscussion, perhaps) in due course. Incidentally, I presume the Mike Myers of the background photo is the same Mike Myers (former cuso volunteer) who I shared a house with in Bangkok many years ago. Jonothan 244 From: amara chay Date: Tue Apr 4, 2000 3:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] latest newsletter >Incidentally, I presume the Mike Myers of the background photo is the same >Mike Myers (former cuso volunteer) who I shared a house with in Bangkok >many >years ago. Jonothan, Sorry I don't know whether it is the same person; I only know his website is full of great shots of the moon! For those interested, I have also added a link from the NASA credits line on the Q&A2 page (bottom right- click on underlined words) background to a fascinating page of press release pictures at NASA of multiple galaxies collisions where up to five or six of them pile up! Amara 245 From: amara chay Date: Wed Apr 5, 2000 6:06pm Subject: Old friends Jonothan, On the subject of old friends, do you remember an American samanera Heng Shun, who was in the discussion group at Wat Bowornives with Phra Dhammadaro at the time for half a year in 73-74? He has been a bhikkhu for 20 yrs. now in the States, saw us on the web and is now going to bring students to join the discussions with K.S. in Frisco! His monastery is about 150m. to the north of the city, and he wrote that he still uses her books to teach in his classes. If you want to say hello, his address is Amara 246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 10:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: DSDG > >Sarah, >The other day she also said that the abhidhamma is the key to the >understanding of the Tipitaka as a whole (for example when you read the >suttas it is not about this or that person but different combinations >of citta, cetasika and rupa, I think). Therefore if you are to study >the Tipitaka at all you should not neglect the abhidhamma, it should at >least be studied together with the rest. Personally I think that >studying the abhidhamma is a lot better than studying anything else or >having any kind of hobby because it is a very good reminder for sati to >arise while other activities might not be so conducive. >Amara > Amara, i agree...w'out abhidhamma study or rather w'out understanding of abhidhamma, one is sure to read the suttas w/ the idea of people, things and places...abhidhamma understanding is essential for understanding the difference between concepts and realities...So what do we mean by study? There can be study of abhidhamma now or at any other moment if we have heard and considered about realities. > > 247 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 11:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life > Actually, I hadn't checked or finished my last message when it mysteriously decided to go out on its own.. So here I am, having moved house AGAIN (or rather high-rise apartment Hong Kong-style) yesterday, unable to sleep at 3a.m., using the time to check messages while falling over boxes..... I do believe that if we have any idea about this time or moment being less conducive to the development of sati and panna than say our times with abhidhamma texts or on pilgrimage with K.Sujin in India, it shows our clinging to 'situation' to 'somehting' to 'self'......seeing, hearing, thinking etc are not confined to times and places... If they were, the bhikkhu with the most time for studying the texts would be the most enlightened, but we know it is the understanding which is the key and the confidence which develops with it that whatever reality appers now is the test for awareness... For sure, however, we need to hear and read and consider a lot about diferent realities for right understanding to develop. Hopefully, this is yet another channel for this. Sarah p.s. Amara, Vince called this eve for one of his regular long dhamma & catch-up chats..still trying to persuade him & Nancy to join us here! 248 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 3:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear sarah, This is something Khun Sujin stresses so much: that awareness can arise anywhere, anytime, any situation. How? Because in the ultimate sense no place, no time, no situation- only cittas, cetasikas, rupas. Why did the Buddha sometimes recommend that monks meditate, why did he say "I have given you the roots of trees, meditate ..." I think we can say that quite places can be ideal- more time to contemplate the teachings. But this is a secondary condition; the most important conditions are listening, considering and direct study of realities(which can be in the midst of a very busy life). The problem with bUddhists these days is that they think this minor condition is the most important one. Once a monk had the necessary conditions to become an arahant. Sariputta(or another famous monk) asked him what food was most suitable for him. The monk replied that fish was. So sariputta attained this for him (not by hinting or any wrong means) and the monk became an arahant on that very day. The correct food was a supporting condition for arahantship. If we take this story wrongly we could all start eating fish every day - or we might become very concerned with diet. In the same way people become very concerned about finding ideal conditions to develop insight. But these are very minor matters compared to developing understanding(at any time) which is the indispensable cause for nibbana. Robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > > Actually, I hadn't checked or finished my last > message when it mysteriously > decided to go out on its own.. > > So here I am, having moved house AGAIN (or rather > high-rise apartment Hong > Kong-style) yesterday, unable to sleep at 3a.m., > using the time to check > messages while falling over boxes..... > > I do believe that if we have any idea about this > time or moment being less > conducive to the development of sati and panna than > say our times with > abhidhamma texts or on pilgrimage with K.Sujin in > India, it shows our > clinging to 'situation' to 'somehting' to > 'self'......seeing, hearing, > thinking etc are not confined to times and places... > If they were, the > bhikkhu with the most time for studying the texts > would be the most > enlightened, but we know it is the understanding > which is the key and the > confidence which develops with it that whatever > reality appers now is the > test for awareness... > > For sure, however, we need to hear and read and > consider a lot about > diferent realities for right understanding to > develop. Hopefully, this is > yet another channel for this. > > Sarah > > p.s. Amara, Vince called this eve for one of his > regular long dhamma & > catch-up chats..still trying to persuade him & Nancy > to join us here! > > 249 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 6, 2000 8:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life >So here I am, having moved house AGAIN (or rather high-rise apartment Hong >Kong-style) yesterday, unable to sleep at 3a.m., using the time to check >messages while falling over boxes..... >p.s. Amara, Vince called this eve for one of his regular long dhamma & >catch-up chats..still trying to persuade him & Nancy to join us here! Sarah, please be careful with your boxes, a friend of mine moved into the building the year before and fell over a box behind a couch and broke her ankle! By the way I spoke to Nina W. the other day and she said she was having some of her casts removed that day and will be walking better soon. I was also trying to persuade her to get a computer that worked with a mobile modem, but she said she was a low tech. person. Any way she said she lived only a few km. from the phone lines now, so there's still hope... >I do believe that if we have any idea about this time or moment being less >conducive to the development of sati and panna than say our times with >abhidhamma texts or on pilgrimage with K.Sujin in India, it shows our >clinging to 'situation' to 'somehting' to 'self'......seeing, hearing, >thinking etc are not confined to times and places... If they were, the >bhikkhu with the most time for studying the texts would be the most >enlightened, but we know it is the understanding which is the key and the >confidence which develops with it that whatever reality appers now is the >test for awareness... > >For sure, however, we need to hear and read and consider a lot about >diferent realities for right understanding to develop. Hopefully, this is >yet another channel for this. > >Sarah > About the study of the Tipitaka, I agree that with K.S.'s teachings as a firm basis we hardly need to study the texts, and that the study of the present moment is the essence of the Buddha's teachings, but with my accumulations I still find that I have more sati arising while discussing, hearing or reading about the dhamma. I also have had sati in some of the strangest moments, but I find that in the instants of strong lobha it arises less often than at other times. And I have such a lot of lobha! Some of which is for knowledge in the worldly sense, in a lot of areas. This is what I meant when I said that studying the abhidhamma is more conducive for sati for me than reading a novel or a scientific journal. By the way, Sarah, when I am unable to sleep, reading through the abhidhamma is a pretty good cure... especially a long list of pali names. Just be careful because I recommended it to a friend and she said the 'Summary' book was so heavy it almost broke her nose when she dozed off reading it! It also left her wide awake again!!! Amara 250 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 7, 2000 9:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life >Why did the Buddha sometimes recommend that monks >meditate, why did he say "I have given you the roots >of trees, meditate ..." I think we can say that quite >places can be ideal- more time to contemplate the >teachings. But this is a secondary condition; the most >important conditions are listening, considering and >direct study of realities(which can be in the midst of >a very busy life). The problem with bUddhists these >days is that they think this minor condition is the >most important one. Robert, I do not agree with the suggestion that quiet places are more suitable for the develoment of awareness or understanding than any other place. It contradicts what you so aptly said about 'no time, no place, no situation'. By the way, what is the pali term which is translated here as 'meditate'? Jonothan 251 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 7, 2000 10:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Jonothon, I think I said quiet places CAN be ideal. It does not mean they ARE. Look at the rest of what I wrote- even eating fish CAN be a supporting conition at some time , for some people, for insight to arise. But these days quiet places can even hinder progress because people think it is some prerequisite for insight to arise. I am not sure of the Pali word for meditate but for sure the buddha meant develop either vipassana or the supporting conditions for vipassana. The indispensable conditions for insight are listening, considering, applying the teachings and having accumulations from the past. Robert 252 From: Heng Shun Date: Sun Apr 9, 2000 5:55am Subject: Message from an old Dharma friend Dear Friends in the Dharma, Amara suggested that I write a little note to assist those who might be "racking their brain" trying to figure out "Who is Heng Shun?". I certainly don't want to be a potential supporting factor for anyone's akusala-karma as they trouble over this question. Therefore let me me clarify who "I" am- conventionally speaking of course. I was originally introduced to Khun Sujin in May of 1973 by an American laywoman who was staying at the same Wat as myself- Wat Mahatat. After I started attending her weekly classes at Wat Bovornives I moved to Wat Pleng, where Phra Dhammadaro lived- also a regular participant in Khun Sujin's classes at that time. After a month at Wat Pleng I moved to Wat Bovornives. As I was still a lay-follower at the time, my three months worth of visa extensions were used up and I returned to the U.S. Inspired by Khun Sujin's teachings, in January of 1974 I returned to Wat Bovornives to prepare to become ordained as a Shramanera, which I did in March. The Somdet gave me the monastic name Jutindharo- not to be confused with the previous American monk of the same name who had, unfortunately, just disrobed before my ordination. My lay-name before this time was Gregory Wilczak, but I was commonly known by the study group as Greg (I'm originally from Chicago). In June of 1974 I returned to the U.S. to study under the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua at Gold Mountain Monatery in San Francisco. An Australian monk at Wat Bovornives had given me the recently published biography of the Venerable Master which had been sent to Phra Khantipalo, who was training all of us young foreign monks at the time, and who had a very extensive English library. As soon as I read the Venerable Master's biography I knew he was my monastic teacher from past lives so I immediately left to study with him. I was ordained as a Shramanera again under the Venerable Master in 1975 at Gold Mountain and given the monastic name Heng Shun. He ordained me as a Bhikshu in 1976. Gold Mountain emphasized a very strict adherence to the traditional monastic Vinaya, coupled with scholarly study of the Sutras and intensive practice of Shamatha and Vipashyana. The Venerable Master also lectured on an Abhidharma work by the great Indian Master Vasubandhu (circa 5th cent). After 17 years at Gold Mountain Monastery, my last 8 years have been spent at our major monastic training center, the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Mendocino County about 120 miles north of San Francisco. The City has about 30-40 Bhikshus and Shramaneras and about 70-80 Bhikshunis and Shramanerikas (the Bhikshuni tradition has survived to the present via India-China in the Mahayana). In addition to this we have well over 100 lay-followers family who also live on a designated area on the 400-acre grounds of the City. The majority of the people are Chinese from Asian countries (i.e. China, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Hong Kong etc.) or American-born Chinese. We have separate Boys and Girls elementary and high schools on the grounds of the City, as well as a university that is still in an early stage of development. I teach Buddhist Studies and World Religions in the high school and also am teaching translation classes for the Shramaneras in the monastery (translation of Chinese Sutras into English). I'm presently working on a major translation work from Ancient Buddhist Chinese into English- the final chapter of the Flower Adornment (Avatamsaka) Sutra on the Conduct (Carya) and Vows (Pranidhana) of the Bodhisattva, Universal Worthy (Samantabhadra) with an extensive commentary by our Master. I'm relatively fluent in Chinese, but also have the kusala karma-vipaka to have several native Chinese monks and lay-followers who are fluent in English who give me much needed assistance. I'm very fortunate to have laid a very solid foundation in understanding Dharma through the classes taught by Khun Sujin at Wat Bovornives. I recall, as many of you well know, how tirelessly she taught us- sometimes the classes would go on for 5 to 6 hours as she patiently answered our many questions about the Abhidharma. I'm now reading the many works that I've just discovered are available on-line by Khun Sujin and her students, and this is a real pleasure. I look forward to once again expanding my knowledge of Abhidharma by participating in Khun Sujin's discussions here in the San Francisco Bay area when she visits in a couple of weeks, and perhaps also seeing some old friends who will be accompanying her. I'll be bringing 5 or so young Shramaneras (16 to 22 yrs of age) along to participate in these discussions. I'd love to also contribute to these Dharma group discussions on-line. My knowledge is very limited, and I would sometimes be speaking from the perspective of the Mahayana Abhidharma as exemplified by the Indian Master Vasubandhu. Perhaps people will find it of interest to become exposed to the Sanskrit terminology that I would be using. There are some interesting interpretations of the significance of pranidhana (vows) of the Bodhisattva and the idea of parinamana- consignment of punya (merit) to others. Other than that, I believe the Abhidharma in both traditions is pretty much the same. One of the Shramaneras is reading Khun Sujin's material for the first time and has said he sees little if any difference between the two traditions of Abhidharma. Anyway, I hope this may be an opportunity for anumodana- or at least not be a condition for the potential akusala-karma from "racking one's brain". Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 253 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 9, 2000 1:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend Dear Venerable Heng Shun, A very warm welcome to the group. I am a relatively new member having met Khun Sujin only nine years ago. (I met Phra khantiplalo years before that) It was fascinating to read your details. I have read some of the material from the Gold Mountain Monastery- a very austere living and hard studying group indeed. They seem to have many points in common with Theravada tradition, closer than most mahayana groups. I certainly hope you will put your opinions forward often - it is very useful for us to have a monk of such longstanding in the discussions. Please don't be put off if anyone disagrees with your ideas- most of us are firmly within the Theravda tradition and thus see things from this perspective. You may have to be forceful and repetitive to get properly heard- I urge you to be so. At best if there is any disagreement we can all have the chance to examine our beliefs and compare them with the present moment. A great opportunity. Best wishes Robert 254 From: amara chay Date: Sun Apr 9, 2000 5:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend Venerable sir, Thank you very much for your fascinating account of your life, or rather the intricacies of the citta, cetasika and rupa, a person's accumulations. I thnk that the abhidhamma cannot be too different from one tradition to the other if one does not change or misinterpret the texts in the course of the study, and that is because it is the truth and no one can change that. Over two thousand five hundred years age the Buddha taught that the universe was always changing, building up and dying down, and modern science only recently discovered as much, after the burning of several scholars through the centuries. In fact science has never been able to disprove any of the Buddha's teachings, they only lag lamentably behind. The Buddha spoke of other worlds and planets long before astronomers began discovering other planetary systems. It may take an infinitely longer time for 'science' to prove anything about the intricacies of the mind, in the meantime each can prove the Buddha's teachings on this matter for themselves, by accumulating conditions for satipatthana, listening, reading and studying about the realities that appear to us. I am very glad we have another friend to discuss these matters with, Amara 255 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Mon Apr 10, 2000 3:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend Dear Heng Shun, Does this ring any bells? Regards, Ivan (Michael on the far left and Stacy on the far right ) >From: "Heng Shun" >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 21:55:26 PDT > >Dear Friends in the Dharma, Amara suggested that I write a little note to >assist those who might be "racking their brain" trying to figure out "Who >is >Heng Shun?". I certainly don't want to be a potential supporting factor >for >anyone's akusala-karma as they trouble over this question. Therefore let >me >me clarify who "I" am- conventionally speaking of course. I was originally >introduced to Khun Sujin in May of 1973 by an American laywoman who was >staying at the same Wat as myself- Wat Mahatat. After I started attending >her weekly classes at Wat Bovornives I moved to Wat Pleng, where Phra >Dhammadaro lived- also a regular participant in Khun Sujin's classes at >that >time. After a month at Wat Pleng I moved to Wat Bovornives. As I was still >a lay-follower at the time, my three months worth of visa extensions were >used up and I returned to the U.S. Inspired by Khun Sujin's teachings, in >January of 1974 I returned to Wat Bovornives to prepare to become ordained >as a Shramanera, which I did in March. The Somdet gave me the monastic >name >Jutindharo- not to be confused with the previous American monk of the same >name who had, unfortunately, just disrobed before my ordination. My >lay-name before this time was Gregory Wilczak, but I was commonly known by >the study group as Greg (I'm originally from Chicago). In June of 1974 I >returned to the U.S. to study under the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua at Gold >Mountain Monatery in San Francisco. An Australian monk at Wat Bovornives >had given me the recently published biography of the Venerable Master which >had been sent to Phra Khantipalo, who was training all of us young foreign >monks at the time, and who had a very extensive English library. As soon as >I read the Venerable Master's biography I knew he was my monastic teacher >from past lives so I immediately left to study with him. I was ordained as >a >Shramanera again under the Venerable Master in 1975 at Gold Mountain and >given the monastic name Heng Shun. He ordained me as a Bhikshu in 1976. >Gold Mountain emphasized a very strict adherence to the traditional >monastic >Vinaya, coupled with scholarly study of the Sutras and intensive practice >of >Shamatha and Vipashyana. The Venerable Master also lectured on an >Abhidharma >work by the great Indian Master Vasubandhu (circa 5th cent). After 17 years >at Gold Mountain Monastery, my last 8 years have been spent at our major >monastic training center, the City of 10,000 Buddhas in Mendocino County >about 120 miles north of San Francisco. The City has about 30-40 Bhikshus >and Shramaneras and about 70-80 Bhikshunis and Shramanerikas (the Bhikshuni >tradition has survived to the present via India-China in the Mahayana). In >addition to this we have well over 100 lay-followers family who also live >on a designated area on the 400-acre grounds of the City. The majority of >the people are Chinese from Asian countries (i.e. China, Taiwan, Malaysia, >Indonesia, Vietnam, Hong Kong etc.) or American-born Chinese. We have >separate Boys and Girls elementary and high schools on the grounds of the >City, as well as a university that is still in an early stage of >development. I teach Buddhist Studies and World Religions in the high >school and also am teaching translation classes for the Shramaneras in the >monastery (translation of Chinese Sutras into English). I'm presently >working on a major translation work from Ancient Buddhist Chinese into >English- the final chapter of the Flower Adornment (Avatamsaka) Sutra on >the >Conduct (Carya) and Vows (Pranidhana) of the Bodhisattva, Universal Worthy >(Samantabhadra) with an extensive commentary by our Master. I'm relatively >fluent in Chinese, but also have the kusala karma-vipaka to have several >native Chinese monks and lay-followers who are fluent in English who give >me >much needed assistance. I'm very fortunate to have laid a very solid >foundation in understanding Dharma through the classes taught by Khun Sujin >at Wat Bovornives. I recall, as many of you well know, how tirelessly she >taught us- sometimes the classes would go on for 5 to 6 hours as she >patiently answered our many questions about the Abhidharma. I'm now >reading >the many works that I've just discovered are available on-line by Khun >Sujin >and her students, and this is a real pleasure. I look forward to once >again >expanding my knowledge of Abhidharma by participating in Khun Sujin's >discussions here in the San Francisco Bay area when she visits in a couple >of weeks, and perhaps also seeing some old friends who will be accompanying >her. I'll be bringing 5 or so young Shramaneras (16 to 22 yrs of age) >along >to participate in these discussions. I'd love to also contribute to these >Dharma group discussions on-line. My knowledge is very limited, and I >would >sometimes be speaking from the perspective of the Mahayana Abhidharma as >exemplified by the Indian Master Vasubandhu. Perhaps people will find it of >interest to become exposed to the Sanskrit terminology that I would be >using. There are some interesting interpretations of the significance of >pranidhana (vows) of the Bodhisattva and the idea of parinamana- >consignment >of punya (merit) to others. Other than that, I believe the Abhidharma in >both traditions is pretty much the same. One of the Shramaneras is reading >Khun Sujin's material for the first time and has said he sees little if any >difference between the two traditions of Abhidharma. Anyway, I hope this >may be an opportunity for anumodana- or at least not be a condition for the >potential akusala-karma from "racking one's brain". Sincerely, in Dharma, >Heng Shun 256 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 10, 2000 4:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend >Does this ring any bells? ><< WatBovan.jpg >> Reverend sir and dear friends in the dhamma, I am so happy to witness such a e-mail reunion, and that you will be seeing each other in person again soon, to discuss the dhamma with Khun Sujin like in the old days! I also have some news about DS, we have just finished putting up the rest of 'Pilgrimmage to Sri Lanka' in the beginner section, after the long delay. And some not so good news: the new Vithi Citta is only half complete, since the explanation ended at mid-vara, so we might not use it after all. The 'Summary...' gives a much better version, in the chapters about the citta, DS advanced section. We'll also be adding more of the book soon, Amara 257 From: Heng Shun Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 5:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ivan, Robert, Amara, and Dharma-friends, Appreciated your kind welcome and the rather interesting photo. I may not always be able to respond in a timely manner. Needless to say I do not own a computer, rather I use the computer that is shared by the teaching staff at Developing Virtue Boys High School. As you have intimated, until we can verify the unchanging truths of the Abhidharma in our own experience, it is certainly difficult to say with absolute certainty what is the correct interpretation of Abhidharma. And as a prthagjana/puthujjana I'm painfully aware that I do not even know the extent of my avidya/avijja, let alone the truth. With that in mind and with the intention expand my understanding, I pose a question that I often ponder over. What is the inter-relationship between one person's karma and another person's karma-vipaka? For example, when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it is karma-cause. Yet this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. How is it that my cause perfectly corresponds to your result? Perhaps this question is answered in Khun Sujin's magnum opus, A Summary of Paramatthadhamma. I'm only beginning to study the parts that I've downloaded that were available on-line. It's quite a comprehensive text and also quite a task to translate. As a translator I have much anumodana for the translation work. Ivan, I really look forward to seeing you again in a few weeks after 25+ years. By the way, whatever happened to our other friend Phra Cittabalo? Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 258 From: shinlin Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 2:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend I am so glad that there is another Chinese person who can contribute the Dhamma teachings to the Chinese people. This time that I went to Taiwan. I am so amazed at the practice of the Buddhist in Taiwan. metta, Shin Lin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ivan Walsh Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Message from an old Dharma friend > Dear Heng Shun, > Does this ring any bells? > Regards, > Ivan > (Michael on the far left and Stacy on the far right ) > 259 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 2:59pm Subject: What are the kama, rupa and arupa worlds? Kashi Yum wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Can you please explain what kama, rupa and arupa > worlds are, are > these > levels of understanding of Dhamma? > > -Kashi > Dear Kashi, Welcome to the discussion and thank you for the question. I am sure Khun Amara, Sarah and others have something to say on this topic also. Please see my question for you at the end of this little essay. Now we are living in the human plane of existence which is within the kama world. Other planes within this include: animals, petas(translated as ghosts but a little different from the haunted house variety)asuras, hell beings , and devas (the gods). The first four groups are born in these realms by the result of verying degrees of akusala kamma (unwholesome deeds). We are in the human realm because of some kusala kamma done in some past life. Kusala has different levels and thus people are different- some are beautiful, some are rich.... There are different types of devas - sorted again by kamma - They live very long happy lives of luxury and splendour. This is not by accident- it comes from kusala kamma of a high level. The other worlds - rupa and arupa - have subdivisions too. Arising there comes from the correct development of samattha(concentration meditation) done while one is a human. Arupa literally means no body: these beings have only mind and no sense organs. It is an entirely blissful existence that lasts for thousands of aeons. If one happens to be there now it is considered unfortunate as one will not get to hear the Buddhas teaching. Rupa gods have sense organs and can still listen. After they finally die they are born in a lower world - and after that may, depending on kamma be born as animals or in hell. This is samsara - we have only kamma as our possesion wherever we wander in our inumerable lives. It is easy to be born in the lower realms and during most periods the lower realms, especially the hell realms, are very crowded while the deva realms and higher worlds are underpopulated. During a Buddhasasana (the brief periods when there is the teaching of the Buddha available) the deva realms become prosperous due to the large numbers who are able to develop kusala of varying levels. In the deva realms it seems that it is a little like the human realm - some of the devas are interested in studying the Dhamma and have the accumulations to do so - others do not. It is not a prequisite that one be Buddhist to be born in any of these realms (except for the 5th Rupa world which is a special place where anagamis spend there last life). All of us have at times being Arupa gods, we have been devas, we have been Kings and Queens as humans. We have also been animals, insects and endured unspeakable torture in hells. How is this possible? It is because samasara is so umimaginably long. It is not necessarily understanding of Dhamma that leads to the higher worlds. We can speculate that someone like Mother Teresa might be now in a deva realm - her understanding was wrong but it was a condition for her to do many good deeds. However extreme wrong view of the type that denies kamma and its results (such as thinking that upon death everything is finished) is such a severe type of akusala kamma in itself that the holder will tend to be born in a lower realm. Understanding comes in many levels from theoretical to experiential with many shades. The scriptures give 5 broad levels from lowest to highest: 1. Kammassakata nana (the knowledge that all beings have kamma as their only real property). In its most basic level this means merely understanding this fact theoretically. But it can also be known directly as wisdom develops -see Sujin Boriharnwanaket http://www.dhammastudy.com/kammasakata.html for a detailed explanation of this. 2. The next level is Dhamma- vavatthana-nana (analytical knowledhe of Dhamma) 3Paccaya -vavatthana -nana(analaytical knowledge of conditions) 4.Lakkhana-pativedhana-nana (analytical knowledge that penetrates anatta, dukkha, and anicca 5. Nibbana-pativedha-nana (experience of Nibbana) As there is progression through these stages there is deeper understanding of the earlier levels. There is no more a "person" doing kamma , there are rather merely moments of nama and rupa. Thus the function and characteristics of the different realities are seen more and more clearly: kamma is understood directly (but not as comprehensively as the Buddha understood it). I have a question for you: Why should we believe that these other worlds exist? Is there any evidence beyond the scriptures; we can see animals but I personally have no experience of any other beings(not in this life anyway)? Robert 260 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Inter-relationship and kamma Dear Heng Shun, --- Very nice to see your modesty and honesty: "And as a > prthagjana/puthujjana I'm painfully > aware that I do not even know the extent of my > avidya/avijja, let alone the > truth." and thanks for using Pali as well as Sanskrit- it makes reading easier. May I just add that I too am well stuck in samsara - a puthujana. It seems easy for us to admit this but I am afraid that within Theravada these days (I dont know about Mahayana) the numbers overestimating their achievements has reached epidemic proportions. Very hard to talk to them - "I am a sotapanna, how can I interpret things wrongly, of course I know exactly what sati is and how to develop understanding" . Many, I fear, go to their grave convinced they have special attainments - and their students follow along. Now for your very difficult question: "What is > the inter-relationship > between one person's karma and another person's > karma-vipaka? For example, > when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it > is karma-cause. Yet > this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. > How is it that my cause > perfectly corresponds to your result?" Kamma(sansrit- karma)is not the only cause for vipaka to arise although it is the major one. It needs other supporting conditions. One of the teachers of Siddharta when he was a bodhisatta had attained arupa jhana and was reborn in an arupa brahma world . He had all the parami to attain Nibbana but could not (and still cannnot ) hear the Dhamma - he remains a puthujana. Kamma is so complex that the results are considered unthinkables -it is beyond our capacity to understand exactly how the complex conditions from the past interact in the present. Nevertheless we can understand aspects that help us see the absolute anattaness of everything. Nothing can be controlled, yet nothing is happening by chance, neither is it deterministic. Let us consider some examples- The Buddha once pointed out to Ananda a drunken beggar. He said that beggar if he had heard the Dhamma as a young man and become a monk would now be an arahant. As it was he was now old and conditions were such that he would not even hear the Dhamma let alone develop any understanding. Even though he was in sight of the Buddha nothing could be done. A queen tried to avoid seeing the Buddha because she was beautiful and had heard that beauty was said to be a temporary thing by the Buddha. She was eventually forced to listen but managed to put herself at he very back of the crowd. It didnt matter - conditions worked so that she heard the teaching and there and then became enlightened - she didnt want to get enlightened, didnt try, didnt even know what enlightenment was- but conditions follow their own ways. It is beyond control. When we hear the Dhamma now- if it is true Dhamma - then for sure one of the conditions is past kusala kamma . But if there are not enough accumaulations of parami, especially wisdom, then we may gain very little from it. Some people listen and it means nothing to them at all. Another person experiencing the same words at the same time may become a sotapanna immediately. We have an enormous(infinite?) number of kammas good and bad from the past that can give their fruit at any time - but if there are not supporting conditions, which in a conventional sense include the right time and place, they cannot bear fruit. For example we could have been killers in our last life. If we were now born in hell we would experience all the painful results of those deeds. But we were born in a human realm so we cannot to the same extent receive the results of those bad deeds- although we may receive some limited bad results. Thus "my cause corresponding perfectly to your result" is not entirely accurate - it is not put that way (in theravada texts anyway). It is all so, so complex - as I said before not determination -as your phrase suggests, but neither is it chance happening. There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in The Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma. Kamma is the most imporatnt from an ethical point of view but others work their way also. Extremely complex but then so is this confusing knot we call life. The Buddha classified conditions in the simplest most accurate way so that we could - as much as we can - untangle the mess. Robert 261 From: amara chay Date: Tue Apr 11, 2000 6:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] >With that in mind and with the intention expand my understanding, I >pose a question that I often ponder over. What is the inter-relationship >between one person's karma and another person's karma-vipaka? For example, >when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it is karma-cause. Yet >this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. How is it that my cause >perfectly corresponds to your result? Perhaps this question is answered in >Khun Sujin's magnum opus, A Summary of Paramatthadhamma. Venerable sir, I am also certain that you will need no further explanation once you have read the entire book. For a shorter version, I wrote in message 95 to the group in January something that may be relevant: I would like to comment that paccaya are so complex as to be one of the 'imponderables' beyond the ordinary person's calculations, in fact only predictable to the Buddha. The computer for example is conceived on the basis of mathematical possibilities of the combinations of 1's and 0's in eight positions, (I hope I get it right, I was never good at math!) which gave millions of combinations. With 24 paccayas in any number of combinations [17 I think being the smallest number necessary, for a single instant of seeing, for example], the possibilities seem to be mind boggling, no wonder with the number of kamma accumulated each second, each with different degrees of strength, some would take millions of lifetimes to be just right to produce their results. Knowing about the different paccaya, is it not better to study the present aramana to incrase our accumulations of panna, because once the instant has fallen away, it's precise nature is also gone, and we would have to wonder what it was just now?... I would like to add that all citta can be categorized as vipaka and kamma, and in a vara of vithi citta there are both kinds, in short, when we receive an aramana that is vipaka, the result of past kamma, but our reaction to it is kamma, which will produce results in the future. But because we can never know all the details of our millioms upon millions of past lives, we can never know precisely which kamma produced which vipaka, that is the domain of the omniscient Buddhas. Amara 262 From: Heng Shun Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 6:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Robert and Amara, Appreciated your responses to my question. Indeed it cannot be overemphasized that how we "respond" to our karmic-results will be determined to a great extent by our "present-life" accumulated karmic tendencies. It's probably the case that if the old drunken begger did not have so much habitual akusala karmic tendencies from his "present" life, he still could have had the opportunity to develop profound prajna/panna wisdom into the Dharma when the Buddha saw him. I also understand that there are various supporting conditions, such as time and place, which must be factored into the ripening of karma. However, my question is actually focused on the karmic side of phenomena (for example, my speaking to you)- that is, those cittas that for me are karmic causes, are for you results (before you generate further karma in response to those results). I think that Amara's point that pratyayas/paccayas are so complex that they are considered "imponderables" or "unthinkables" is well-taken. It is said in the Avatamsaka (Flower Adornment) Sutra from the Chinese that the , "interconnecting 'net' of the karma and vipaka of all living beings is inconceivable." Note that although the word "net" has a static connotation, this so-called net is very dynamic and constantly changing. I look forward to reading Khun Sujin's explanation of the various pratyaya in the Summary of Paramattha Dhamma- there is not a lot of material on this subject in English and I feel it is one of my weakest areas of understanding. Amara, I agree it is definitely important to "study the present arammana (objects of the six senses) to increase our accumulation of panna". However, understanding the different pratyaya/paccaya is also important to me as well, even if it is a rather daunting and complex endeavor. I hope you will bear with me in that from my orientation in the Mahayana Sutras all areas of knowledge are accessible for the overriding purposes of the Bodhisattva Path. I truly feel that this is not by any means incompatible with the study of Abhidharma- whether the sources are in Pali, Sanskrit or Chinese. Robert, while reading your very clearly articulated response to Kashi, I thought that you might want to add that the arupa-lokas involve contemplations or experential states of infinity. It seems that the mystical teachings in various religions at their best seem to have as their goal rebirth in these heavens. The most adept practitioners of these paths I believe mistake the meditative states associated with the arupa lokas as being free from duhkha/dukkha or Nirvana, just as the Buddha's first two teachers did. How often have we heard such terms as "infinite consciousness", "oceanic consciousness" and so forth in these mystical traditions? Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun By the way Shin Lin, I am not Chinese- at least in this life. My maternal and fraternal grandparents were born in Greece and Poland respectively. I do live in a community that is predominantly Chinese, and I do speak and often think in Chinese. Therefore, I still hopefully can "contribute the Dhamma teachings to the Chinese people". Are there any cittas, cetasikas, and rupas that are "Chinese"? We look forward to receiving any translation work you do in Chinese on Khun Sujin's Summary of Paramattha Dhammas. My colleague Dr. Wang is quite capable to help edit your work. 263 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 2:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dear venearable Heng shun, Thanks for the reply which is very clear. I agree with your comment to Amara that ""it is definitely important to "study the > present arammana (objects of the six senses) to increase our accumulation of > panna". However, understanding the different pratyaya/paccaya is also > important to me as well, even if it is a rather daunting and complex > endeavor." The study of conditions can help to incline the mind towards direct understanding. One more point that you may wish to comment on: Dependent causality, the paticcasamupada, is sometimes, among western writers, confused with some all encompassing inter-relativity. But in its original form is limited to one stream of individuality - still deeply complex but rather less grand in its aim. Robert 264 From: shinlin Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 4:38pm Subject: Fw: clarify This message is just for misunderstanding. ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin To: amara chay Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: Re: > Dear Pi Joy, > What I mean in "Chinese person" is a person who knows Chinese language. > If we understand Dhamma, there is no nationality in reality only > conventional term. > Recently, I"ve just encountered a small child who recalls his past life. > He is quite young. He knows the exact name of his previous father who was a > Chinese. But in this life, this kid is born in a Thai family from Korat. So > how can we explain that. It is just what the Lord Buddha said, there is not > nationality or anything. There is only the four Paramatthas. > When I said Chinese is because I realized that alot of people who does > not understand Thai or English will not have any chance of understanding the > truth. Which is a pity ??? > Tomorrow, I will be leaving for Taiwan again. The last time when I went > back, I had some talk with some friends. And it was so hard to explain > CITTA, CESTIKA, RUPA in Chinese. It was so hard for both sides to > communicate. Such a pity for the people who required languages other than > English and Thai. > with regards, > Shin > ----- Original Message ----- > From: amara chay > To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:00 PM > > > > Dear Shin, > > I'm afraid the venerable Heng shun is not a Chinese, in fact look at the > > picture Ivan put in his last e-mail to the group! But apparently he reads > > and probably speaks it very well, and has many assistants who do. In fact > I > > have asked him if he could help check your Chinese if you translate > > 'Summary...' and he said there's a doctor Wang who can, and has asked for > a > > sample page, if you have any! > > How was Taiwan? How is the Buddhist practice different? you might want > to > > share that with us in the group discussion. I just wanted to give you the > > good news in private... The rest you can take up with the persons in > > question themselves! > > Anumodana in your kusala cetana, > > Amara 265 From: amara chay Date: Wed Apr 12, 2000 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: clarify > > When I said Chinese is because I realized that alot of people who >does > > not understand Thai or English will not have any chance of understanding >the > > truth. Which is a pity ??? > > Tomorrow, I will be leaving for Taiwan again. The last time when I >went > > back, I had some talk with some friends. And it was so hard to explain > > CITTA, CESTIKA, RUPA in Chinese. It was so hard for both sides to > > communicate. Such a pity for the people who required languages other >than > > English and Thai. Shin, I hope this doesn't mean that you have given up the translation of the 'Summary...' especially now that help is available! Amara 266 From: Mike Potter Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 9:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Why did the Buddha sometimes recommend that monks > meditate, why did he say "I have given you the roots > of trees, meditate ..." I think we can say that quite > places can be ideal- more time to contemplate the > teachings. But this is a secondary condition; the most > important conditions are listening, considering and > direct study of realities(which can be in the midst of > a very busy life). The problem with Buddhists these > days is that they think this minor condition is the > most important one. Words are such an imprecise means of communication - but through this means (e-mail), they're all we have! :-) So if I have misinterpreted Robert's meaning here, it is all due to my own processing of what was said based on my own experiences (conditions). Quiet places can be ideal, not only because they provide more time to contemplate the teachings, but also because they support a calming of the mind that allows it to let go of its attachments and to be receptive to seeing things as they really are. While I concur that listening, considering, and the direct experience of realities through skillful means, even in the midst of a busy life, CAN lead to awakening if one has the proper accumulations to support it, the role of meditation in developing Right Concentration as a necessary path factor cannot be minimized. One cannot "think" oneself into an insight. Yet listening to the Dhamma, and contemplating it deeply, will provide supporting conditions for the arising of knowledge and vision - not as a cognitive experience, but as a true understanding (a non-conceptual knowing) from the direct experience of the dhammas. One must move from a cognitive reflection on the teachings to the *direct experience* of the teachings - a direct seeing of anicca, dukkha and anatta, through penetrating inquiry (appropriate attention) into the stress, the origin of stress, the cessation of stress, and the path leading to the cessation of stress in each moment of one's experience. I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own experience, such conditions seem to be the most supportive of the arising of Right Concentration. Of course, one must endeavor to apply the practice of listening, considering, and directly experiencing realities whenever possible in daily life, through satipatthana, for maximum effect. I don't mean to minimize the importance of this aspect of one's practice. But one must not neglect meditation, either. For it provides supporting conditions that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification (visuddhi) that lead to awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be developed in tandem. I am aware of the fear of some that they will get caught up in the pleasures of the jhanas and not develop vipassana. But a degree of calm and tranquility is necessary to steady the mind, to make it "soft and receptive to insight". See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-170.html Another passage suggests that if samatha precedes vipassana - or vipassana precedes samatha - one's practice is in a state of imbalance and needs to be rectified. See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. For two excellent articles on this issue, see "One Tool Among Many - the Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html and "The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Yours in the Dhamma, Mike 267 From: Heng Shun Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 6:56am Subject: Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Friends in the Dharma, First I want to mention to Shin Lin and Amara that I'm happy to ask Dr. Wang to assist in the editing of the Chinese translation of the Summary of Paramatthadhamma. I think Shin Lin's point concerning past lives is well-taken. It says in both the Pali and Chinese Sutras that we have gone through measureless lives in the past- from time without beginning. We have been so many nationalities and so many species of being we cannot even reckon them. Robert had also asked the following question: "One more point that you may wish to comment on: Dependent causality, the paticcasamupada, is sometimes, among western writers, confused with some all encompassing inter-relativity. But in its original form is limited to one stream of individuality - still deeply complex but rather less grand in its aim." My response: I believe it is extremely important to ask people who are expounding principles that they say represent the Buddha's teachings, regardless of which tradition, what the scriptural basis is for their principles. That is, in which Sutra do they base their ideas on. Are their ideas in the Vinaya, the Sutras, the Abhidharma or are they the theories of commentators, or perhaps they are their own innovations. In the Mahayana tradition, it is my opinion that the most important Sutras are the Avatamsaka (Flower Adornment) Sutra, the Lotus Flower of the Wondrous Dharma Sutra, and the Shurangama Sutra. With respect to the pratitya samutpada (conditioned origination), the most detailed and significant explanation of this (in my opinion) is the chapter in the Avatamsaka Sutra entitled the Ten Grounds (Dashabhumika) of a Bodhisattva. The Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground called Manifestation (Abhimuki)focuses on the perfection of the paramita of prajna/panna. I will quote a portion of the text in explaining the state of this Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground (this is from the Chinese T. 279- translated by our Buddhist Text Translation Society with some editing by myself) "The Bodhisattva in this way accordingly contemplates the marks (lakshana) of condtioned origination (pratitya samutpada). Disciples of the Buddha, this Bodhisattva makes the following reflection: 'From failure to understand truth in the primary sense there is what is called ignorance. The karma thought on which activities (samskara) rely and stop is consciousnesss. The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with consciousness are name and form. Name and form increase and become the six sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense-faculties, sense-objects, and consciousnesses combine to make up contact. Contact comes together, and there is feeling. Defiled attachment to feeling is thirst (trshna/tanha). Thirst increases and that is grasping. Grasping gives rise to karma with outflows (ashrava/asava) and that is existence. The skandhas that arise from karma are birth. Maturation of the skandhas is old age. Destruction of the skandhas is death. At the time of death there is separation. The greed and hankering from delusion and confusion leads to melancholy in heart and mind, which is grief. Flowing tears and sighs are lamentation. In the five sense organs this becomes suffering. In the mind this becomes worry. As worry and suffering increase, they become vexations. 'In that way there is only the tree of suffering which increases, without a self or what belongs to self, with no doer and with no receiver.' "He further makes the following reflection: 'If there were a doer, then there would be something done. If there is no doer and nothing done, then in the primary sense, none of it can be got at.' "Disciples of the Buddha, this Bodhisattva, Mahasattva further makes the following reflection: 'All within the three realms of existence is only mind. The Tathagata within this divides and proclaims the 12 factors of conditioned origination, yet it all depends upon the mind, and in that way it is established.' 'Why is that? In following phenomena, gread and desire are produced together with the mind, and that mind is consciousness. The phenomena are activities (samsakaras), and delusion with regard to activities is ignorance. What is produced together with ignorance and mind is name and form. As name and form increase they become the six sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense faculties combining make for contact. What is produced together with contact is feeling. Feeling without satiation is thirst. Thirst pulling in and not letting go is grasping. The production of all those factors of existence is existence. What springs from existence is called birth. Birth matured is old age, and the decay of old age is death. ' 'Disciples of the Buddhas, within this ignorance has two karmas....(The text goes on to explain two kinds of karma for each of the 12 factors of conditioned origination, how the 12 operate in the three periods of time, how they all are extinguished, the three types of libertation etc. Then this portion of the text on the Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground concludes): 'Disciples of the Buddha, the Bodhisattva in that way contemplates the conditioned as having many faults and disasters, and as being without a nature of its own (svabhava), and so is not produced and not destroyed. Yet he constantly gives rise to great compassion, and does not forsake living beings. Right then prajna-paramita, called the unobstructed light of wisdom, manifests before him. Once he has accomplished such light of wisdom, although he cultivates the causes and conditions of the factors of Bodhi he does not dwell in the conditioned. And although he contemplates conditioned dharmas as being in their own nature quiescent, he also does not dwell in quiescence, because he has not yet perfected the dharmas of the factors of Bodhi.'" This is only about 1/3 of the entire portion on the pratitya samutpada in this section. I wanted to give you a clear idea of how it is interpretted to be the same in both traditions. The difference is in the Bodhisattva's state. It is believed in Mahayana that these Bodhisattvas who are on a very high level of attainment- they've accumulated kusala karma for many millions of lives- because of their vows of great compassion for all beings are able to remain in Samsara even though they have all the requisites (including prajna/panna) for the realization of Nirvana. Indeed, the relationship between Samsara and Nirvana, according to the Avatamsaka Sutra is that reality experienced with ignorance is Samsara. That same reality experienced without ignorance- in a sense "unconditioned" reality is Nirvana. Because of this relationship, the Bodhisattva is able to experience Samsara even though he has profound prajna-wisdom. What causes the Bodhisattva to remain is that he "constantly gives rise to great compassion and does not forsake living beings". We can see that there are some differences in the Mahayana. I can safely say that this represents very traditional, conservative Mahayana Buddhism, based on the earliest translations of the most essential Sutras. I hope this serves to increase mutual understanding. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 268 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 10:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life > But one must not neglect meditation, either. For it provides supporting >conditions that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification (visuddhi) >that lead to >awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw at >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html > >Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be developed in tandem. >I am aware >of the fear of some that they will get caught up in the pleasures of the >jhanas and >not develop vipassana. But a degree of calm and tranquility is necessary >to steady >the mind, to make it "soft and receptive to insight". >See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-170.html > >Another passage suggests that if samatha precedes vipassana - or vipassana >precedes >samatha - one's practice is in a state of imbalance and needs to be >rectified. >See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. > >For two excellent articles on this issue, see "One Tool Among Many - the >Place of >Vipassana in Buddhist Practice" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/onetool.html >and "The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Mike, I'm afraid some of what these articles say are not supported by the Tipitaka. It is clearly stated there that there are two kinds of ariya-puggalas, those who attained as sukkha-vipassaka and those who attain with jhanna of samatha, and that in the second millennium of the Buddhist era there were only the arahanta who did not have samatha jhana. We are now in the third B. M. so now the most one can attain would be the anagami level, but because the right teachings are still available, we can accumulate wisdom towards future enlightenment, and that is already infinitely better than the fate of those who had attained the highest jhana citta before the Buddha was enlightened. Consider the case of his teachers, Udakatapas and Alaratapas who had attained the highest level of the arupabhrama-bhumi whom, when the Buddha was first enlightened, he sought out but saw that it was too late, and they had passed on to become arupabhrama whose lifespan is I don't remember how many millions of aeons (Maybe Robert can tell us) so that in the Tipitaka they were said to be, 'lost' to enlightenment, to the teachings of the Buddha and all the Buddha to come in between time, since they would have neither eyes nor ears to hear or study the dhamma. So while those who practice vipassana without samatha can attain nibbhana, the opposite is not true. Nor does one need to balance the two, panna is the only vital thing in Buddhism, with it there are conditions for samma-samadhi to automatically arise with satipatthana, with or without jhana-samadhi practices. But because before the buddha's enlightenment no one taught vipassana, most who were interested in eliminating kilesa only had the teachings about samadhi, both samma and micha, most had been practicing it before they met the Buddha, that is why it was normal for them to continue, but with panna of the vipassana level, because nothing is unsuitable as aramana for the vipassana panna, neither the calmest citta nor the 'busiest', kilesa-filled persent moment, which can be the aramana of the next moment of sati, of panna. But in reality the development of calm can be pretty full of kilesa for the refined attachment to the peacefulness as well and be obstructive to the purer levels of panna, if one does not realize it. We all study Buddhism in order to learn what the Buddha taught in the Tipitaka, and all that he teaches support the rest in the most perfect manner, which is why it is such indescribable logic and such a delight to study. He also taught us not to believe even what he taught without careful consideration, the panna must not be in the teachings but in ourselves, our understanding and experience. Through the billions on billions of years we have lived in the samsara-vatta, we must have all at one time or another practiced the jhanas, since we have all been born from the lowliest creatures to the highest Bhrama, and some of us, in fact all, must have some accumulations to practice samadhi (quite dormant in my case). In the Tipitaka, however, it is not essential to the panna that can completely eradicate kilesa, level by level. And that can only come from vipassana, satipatthana. Amara 269 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 1:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >this Bodhisattva makes the following reflection: 'From failure to >understand truth in the primary sense there is what is called ignorance. >The karma thought on which activities (samskara) rely and stop is >consciousnesss. The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with >consciousness are name and form. Name and form increase and become the six >sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense-faculties, sense-objects, >and consciousnesses combine to make up contact. Contact comes together, >and >there is feeling. Defiled attachment to feeling is thirst (trshna/tanha). >Thirst increases and that is grasping. Grasping gives rise to karma with >outflows (ashrava/asava) and that is existence. The skandhas that arise >from karma are birth. Maturation of the skandhas is old age. Destruction >of the skandhas is death. At the time of death there is separation. The >greed and hankering from delusion and confusion leads to melancholy in >heart >and mind, which is grief. Flowing tears and sighs are lamentation. In the >five sense organs this becomes suffering. In the mind this becomes worry. >As worry and suffering increase, they become vexations. > 'In that way there is only the tree of suffering which increases, >without a self or what belongs to self, with no doer and with no receiver.' >"He further makes the following reflection: 'If there were a doer, then >there would be something done. If there is no doer and nothing done, then >in the primary sense, none of it can be got at.' "Disciples of the Buddha, >this Bodhisattva, Mahasattva further makes the following reflection: 'All >within the three realms of existence is only mind. The Tathagata within >this divides and proclaims the 12 factors of conditioned origination, yet >it >all depends upon the mind, and in that way it is established.' > 'Why is that? In following phenomena, gread and desire are produced >together with the mind, and that mind is consciousness. The phenomena are >activities (samsakaras), and delusion with regard to activities is >ignorance. What is produced together with ignorance and mind is name and >form. As name and form increase they become the six sense faculties. The >three aspects of the sense faculties combining make for contact. What is >produced together with contact is feeling. Feeling without satiation is >thirst. Thirst pulling in and not letting go is grasping. The production >of all those factors of existence is existence. What springs from >existence >is called birth. Birth matured is old age, and the decay of old age is >death. ' > 'Disciples of the Buddhas, within this ignorance has two >karmas....(The >text goes on to explain two kinds of karma for each of the 12 factors of >conditioned origination, how the 12 operate in the three periods of time, >how they all are extinguished, the three types of libertation etc. Then >this portion of the text on the Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground concludes): > 'Disciples of the Buddha, the Bodhisattva in that way contemplates the >conditioned as having many faults and disasters, and as being without a >nature of its own (svabhava), and so is not produced and not destroyed. >Yet >he constantly gives rise to great compassion, and does not forsake living >beings. Right then prajna-paramita, called the unobstructed light of >wisdom, manifests before him. Once he has accomplished such light of >wisdom, although he cultivates the causes and conditions of the factors of >Bodhi he does not dwell in the conditioned. And although he contemplates >conditioned dharmas as being in their own nature quiescent, he also does >not >dwell in quiescence, because he has not yet perfected the dharmas of the >factors of Bodhi.'" > This is only about 1/3 of the entire portion on the pratitya >samutpada >in this section. I wanted to give you a clear idea of how it is >interpretted to be the same in both traditions. The difference is in the >Bodhisattva's state. It is believed in Mahayana that these Bodhisattvas >who >are on a very high level of attainment- they've accumulated kusala karma >for >many millions of lives- because of their vows of great compassion for all >beings are able to remain in Samsara even though they have all the >requisites (including prajna/panna) for the realization of Nirvana. >Indeed, >the relationship between Samsara and Nirvana, according to the Avatamsaka >Sutra is that reality experienced with ignorance is Samsara. That same >reality experienced without ignorance- in a sense "unconditioned" reality >is >Nirvana. Because of this relationship, the Bodhisattva is able to >experience >Samsara even though he has profound prajna-wisdom. What causes the >Bodhisattva to remain is that he "constantly gives rise to great compassion >and does not forsake living beings". > We can see that there are some differences in the Mahayana. I can >safely say that this represents very traditional, conservative Mahayana >Buddhism, based on the earliest translations of the most essential Sutras. >I >hope this serves to increase mutual understanding. Venerable sir, I can see why Robert and yourself foresaw some major differences in the interpretations of the texts! In part I blame the language, which has caused many Theravada Thais to misunderstand the texts, simply because the normal usage in the language of corrupted Pali terms: sanna is now used with the connotation of a promise in ordinary Thai, instead of the original Pali meaning of memory. When I see you quote, ' The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with consciousness are name and form.' I would guess that you translated 'name and form' from the Pali 'nama and rupa', which K. S. explains as nama=the element(dhatu) that knows, and rupa=the element that is not consciousness even when it is formless (space, quark, electrons, atoms, invisible gasses, the air or color spectrums we do not see, etc., etc.). She would explain the khandas as conglomeration, composed realities (arising because of conditions, as opposed to nibbhana, which is not a khanda because it does not arise from conditions, nor is it a conglomerate or composed reality), which can be classified as nama and rupa. From another perspective they can be classified as the six senses and their aramana, as internal and external ayatana, from others as kamma and vipaka, from still others as hetuka and ahetuka, and kusala and akusala, in fact through as many classifications as is necessary to see them as they really are, different kinds of realities that are not the self. And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: "The kusala-dhamma and akusala-dhamma that arise as javana-vithi, and fall away are accumulated in the next citta. Although the citta arises and falls away, the falling away of past citta is paccaya for the next citta to arise. Therefore the next citta to arise would inherit all that is accumulated in the previous citta because the subsequent citta ensued from the preceding citta as paccaya. Thus the akusala-javana-vithi-citta and the kusala-javana-vithi-citta accumulate latent tendencies and would be paccaya for vipaka to arise. Samsara-vatta comprises 3 parts: kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta. Kilesa-vatta arises in cycles through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind and accumulates latent tendencies in continuation which are causes to perform kamma-vatta or physical, verbal or mental actions of kusala- or akusala-kamma. Kamma-vatta is the cause for vipaka-vatta to arise, and when the vipaka-citta arises to know arammana through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, it is not without kilesa-vatta because there is still pleasure or displeasure in things appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. Since there is kilesa, there is still cause to perform kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma. Kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma are the causes of akusala-vipaka-Citta and kusala-vipaka-Citta to arise endlessly. As long as panna has not been developed until it is sharp enough to clearly realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, the three samsara-vatta, kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, would continually arise and evolve. Paticcasamuppada means the dhamma that depends on each other to arise as kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, that is, avijja is the cause for sankhara to arise (kilesa-vatta is the paccaya for kamma-vatta to arise), and sankhara is the cause for vinnana to arise (kamma-vatta is the paccaya for vipaka-vatta to arise). Avijja, or moha-cetasika, is the akusala-dhamma that does not know realities as they really are: the kilesa-vatta that is paccaya for the sankhara to arise. The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma or the 4 arupajhana-kusala. Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or the distinct kamma. Therefore the paticcasamuppada manifested by the Buddha is the reality that arises and evolves with each instant. This is constant no matter in which explanation, for example from the perspective of the four aramattha-dhamma, the four ariya-sacca or the paticcasamuppada." End quote. If you compare the two passages you can see the major differences, but in the Pali texts I suspect they may be closer than one might think. I would suggest you check K.S.'s references (you will find that they are all either from the Tipitaka or the Commentaries) when you read the entire chapter (and the entire book, I hope, one day! I will be putting at least one more chapter up today or tonight). And you can take up the differences in your discussions with her in the States! That should make such interesting reading, would you send us some notes or a short article on the sessions afterwards? (Again my lobha is manifesting itself, but then I am only a student with such a long way to go!!!) One other major difference is the great importance you give to the Bodhisatava, especially in Thailand we have the growing cult of the Kwan Yin, whereas in the Theravada tradition it is mainly what the Buddha taught that matters, after all in his last life he also, as the Bodhisatava, lost his way for six years because if previous akusala kamma, and practiced other things before becoming enlightened, including near torture excercises. Still it is better than some Thai Buddhists who claim that this is already past the Buddha's era and time to prepare for the Metteya Buddha to come, and have begun in an incomprehensible manner to criticize the Gotama Buddha even now (though I am glad to say that he was so far the unique case). I think you will find that the Theravada tradition stresses the study of the Abhidhamma, which K.S. regards as the key to the comprehension of the Tipitaka as a whole. As it is often said, even as we discuss this, what is there but nama and rupa, or citta, cetasika and rupa? Amara 270 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 9:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Dear Amara Chay, I am new to your study group, but much appreciated the message sent with its discussion and explanation of the steps in the arising of kamma. I have always felt intimidated by the use of all those Pali terms, but am getting less frustrated by it and am beginning to learn them with the help of a Pali dictionary which my son, a monk at Wat Bavornives here in Bangkok, had given me. But, as you state toward the end of your writing, it is emphasized in the Theravada tradition that it is through the study of Abhidhamma, (and most importantly, vipassana) that a real understanding of all those arising states can come about. Thus, I would like to discuss questions that arise from studying the Abhidhamma. If you, or anyone else you know, would like to discuss such questions, please pass my e-mail on to them. Many thanks, Bongkojpriya Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada > > >this Bodhisattva makes the following reflection: 'From failure to > >understand truth in the primary sense there is what is called ignorance. > >The karma thought on which activities (samskara) rely and stop is > >consciousnesss. The four grasping skandhas/khandhas born along with > >consciousness are name and form. Name and form increase and become the six > >sense faculties. The three aspects of the sense-faculties, sense-objects, > >and consciousnesses combine to make up contact. Contact comes together, > >and > >there is feeling. Defiled attachment to feeling is thirst (trshna/tanha). > >Thirst increases and that is grasping. Grasping gives rise to karma with > >outflows (ashrava/asava) and that is existence. The skandhas that arise > >from karma are birth. Maturation of the skandhas is old age. Destruction > >of the skandhas is death. At the time of death there is separation. The > >greed and hankering from delusion and confusion leads to melancholy in > >heart > >and mind, which is grief. Flowing tears and sighs are lamentation. In the > >five sense organs this becomes suffering. In the mind this becomes worry. > >As worry and suffering increase, they become vexations. > > 'In that way there is only the tree of suffering which increases, > >without a self or what belongs to self, with no doer and with no receiver.' > >"He further makes the following reflection: 'If there were a doer, then > >there would be something done. If there is no doer and nothing done, then > >in the primary sense, none of it can be got at.' "Disciples of the Buddha, > >this Bodhisattva, Mahasattva further makes the following reflection: 'All > >within the three realms of existence is only mind. The Tathagata within > >this divides and proclaims the 12 factors of conditioned origination, yet > >it > >all depends upon the mind, and in that way it is established.' > > 'Why is that? In following phenomena, gread and desire are produced > >together with the mind, and that mind is consciousness. The phenomena are > >activities (samsakaras), and delusion with regard to activities is > >ignorance. What is produced together with ignorance and mind is name and > >form. As name and form increase they become the six sense faculties. The > >three aspects of the sense faculties combining make for contact. What is > >produced together with contact is feeling. Feeling without satiation is > >thirst. Thirst pulling in and not letting go is grasping. The production > >of all those factors of existence is existence. What springs from > >existence > >is called birth. Birth matured is old age, and the decay of old age is > >death. ' > > 'Disciples of the Buddhas, within this ignorance has two > >karmas....(The > >text goes on to explain two kinds of karma for each of the 12 factors of > >conditioned origination, how the 12 operate in the three periods of time, > >how they all are extinguished, the three types of libertation etc. Then > >this portion of the text on the Bodhisattva on the 6th Ground concludes): > > 'Disciples of the Buddha, the Bodhisattva in that way contemplates the > >conditioned as having many faults and disasters, and as being without a > >nature of its own (svabhava), and so is not produced and not destroyed. > >Yet > >he constantly gives rise to great compassion, and does not forsake living > >beings. Right then prajna-paramita, called the unobstructed light of > >wisdom, manifests before him. Once he has accomplished such light of > >wisdom, although he cultivates the causes and conditions of the factors of > >Bodhi he does not dwell in the conditioned. And although he contemplates > >conditioned dharmas as being in their own nature quiescent, he also does > >not > >dwell in quiescence, because he has not yet perfected the dharmas of the > >factors of Bodhi.'" > > This is only about 1/3 of the entire portion on the pratitya > >samutpada > >in this section. I wanted to give you a clear idea of how it is > >interpretted to be the same in both traditions. The difference is in the > >Bodhisattva's state. It is believed in Mahayana that these Bodhisattvas > >who > >are on a very high level of attainment- they've accumulated kusala karma > >for > >many millions of lives- because of their vows of great compassion for all > >beings are able to remain in Samsara even though they have all the > >requisites (including prajna/panna) for the realization of Nirvana. > >Indeed, > >the relationship between Samsara and Nirvana, according to the Avatamsaka > >Sutra is that reality experienced with ignorance is Samsara. That same > >reality experienced without ignorance- in a sense "unconditioned" reality > >is > >Nirvana. Because of this relationship, the Bodhisattva is able to > >experience > >Samsara even though he has profound prajna-wisdom. What causes the > >Bodhisattva to remain is that he "constantly gives rise to great compassion > >and does not forsake living beings". > > We can see that there are some differences in the Mahayana. I can > >safely say that this represents very traditional, conservative Mahayana > >Buddhism, based on the earliest translations of the most essential Sutras. > >I > >hope this serves to increase mutual understanding. > > > Venerable sir, > > I can see why Robert and yourself foresaw some major differences in the > interpretations of the texts! In part I blame the language, which has > caused many Theravada Thais to misunderstand the texts, simply because the > normal usage in the language of corrupted Pali terms: sanna is now used with > the connotation of a promise in ordinary Thai, instead of the original Pali > meaning of memory. When I see you quote, ' The four grasping > skandhas/khandhas born along with consciousness are name and form.' I would > guess that you translated 'name and form' from the Pali 'nama and rupa', > which K. S. explains as nama=the element(dhatu) that knows, and rupa=the > element that is not consciousness even when it is formless (space, quark, > electrons, atoms, invisible gasses, the air or color spectrums we do not > see, etc., etc.). She would explain the khandas as conglomeration, composed > realities (arising because of conditions, as opposed to nibbhana, which is > not a khanda because it does not arise from conditions, nor is it a > conglomerate or composed reality), which can be classified as nama and rupa. > From another perspective they can be classified as the six senses and > their aramana, as internal and external ayatana, from others as kamma and > vipaka, from still others as hetuka and ahetuka, and kusala and akusala, in > fact through as many classifications as is necessary to see them as they > really are, different kinds of realities that are not the self. > > And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would > like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: > > "The kusala-dhamma and akusala-dhamma that arise as javana-vithi, and fall > away are accumulated in the next citta. Although the citta arises and falls > away, the falling away of past citta is paccaya for the next citta to arise. > Therefore the next citta to arise would inherit all that is accumulated in > the previous citta because the subsequent citta ensued from the preceding > citta as paccaya. Thus the akusala-javana-vithi-citta and the > kusala-javana-vithi-citta accumulate latent tendencies and would be paccaya > for vipaka to arise. > > Samsara-vatta comprises 3 parts: kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta. > > Kilesa-vatta arises in cycles through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense and mind and accumulates latent tendencies in continuation which > are causes to perform kamma-vatta or physical, verbal or mental actions of > kusala- or akusala-kamma. Kamma-vatta is the cause for vipaka-vatta to > arise, and when the vipaka-citta arises to know arammana through the eyes, > ears, nose, tongue and bodysense, it is not without kilesa-vatta because > there is still pleasure or > displeasure in things appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense and mind. Since there is kilesa, there is still cause to perform > kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma. Kusala-kamma and akusala-kamma are the > causes of akusala-vipaka-Citta and kusala-vipaka-Citta to arise endlessly. > As long as panna has not been developed until it is sharp enough to clearly > realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, the three samsara-vatta, kilesa-vatta, > kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, would continually arise and evolve. > > Paticcasamuppada means the dhamma that depends on each other to arise as > kilesa-vatta, kamma-vatta and vipaka-vatta, that is, avijja is the cause for > sankhara to arise (kilesa-vatta is the paccaya for kamma-vatta to arise), > and sankhara is the cause for vinnana to arise (kamma-vatta is the paccaya > for vipaka-vatta to arise). > > Avijja, or moha-cetasika, is the akusala-dhamma that does not know realities > as they really are: the kilesa-vatta that is paccaya for the sankhara to > arise. > > The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, > apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. > > Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation with > rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. > > Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. > > Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma or > the 4 arupajhana-kusala. > > Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for > vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or the > distinct kamma. > > Therefore the paticcasamuppada manifested by the Buddha is the reality that > arises and evolves with each instant. This is constant no matter in which > explanation, for example from the perspective of the four aramattha-dhamma, > the four ariya-sacca or the paticcasamuppada." End quote. > > If you compare the two passages you can see the major differences, but in > the Pali texts I suspect they may be closer than one might think. I would > suggest you check K.S.'s references (you will find that they are all either > from the Tipitaka or the Commentaries) when you read the entire chapter (and > the entire book, I hope, one day! I will be putting at least one more > chapter up today or tonight). And you can take up the differences in your > discussions with her in the States! That should make such interesting > reading, would you send us some notes or a short article on the sessions > afterwards? (Again my lobha is manifesting itself, but then I am only a > student with such a long way to go!!!) > > One other major difference is the great importance you give to the > Bodhisatava, especially in Thailand we have the growing cult of the Kwan > Yin, whereas in the Theravada tradition it is mainly what the Buddha taught > that matters, after all in his last life he also, as the Bodhisatava, lost > his way for six years because if previous akusala kamma, and practiced other > things before becoming enlightened, including near torture excercises. > Still it is better than some Thai Buddhists who claim that this is already > past the Buddha's era and time to prepare for the Metteya Buddha to come, > and have begun in an incomprehensible manner to criticize the Gotama Buddha > even now (though I am glad to say that he was so far the unique case). > > I think you will find that the Theravada tradition stresses the study of the > Abhidhamma, which K.S. regards as the key to the comprehension of the > Tipitaka as a whole. As it is often said, even as we discuss this, what is > there but nama and rupa, or citta, cetasika and rupa? > > Amara 271 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 13, 2000 4:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada > I am new to your study group, but much appreciated the message sent >with >its discussion and explanation of the steps in the arising of kamma. I have >always felt intimidated by the use of all those Pali terms, but am getting >less frustrated by it and am beginning to learn them with the help of a >Pali >dictionary which my son, a monk at Wat Bavornives here in Bangkok, had >given >me. But, as you state toward the end of your writing, it is emphasized in >the Theravada tradition that it is through the study of Abhidhamma, (and >most importantly, vipassana) that a real understanding of all those arising >states can come about. Thus, I would like to discuss questions that arise >from studying the Abhidhamma. If you, or anyone else you know, would like >to discuss such questions, please pass my e-mail on to them. >Many thanks, >Bongkojpriya Yugala Dear Bongkojpriya Yugala, On behalf of the entire group, welcome to the discussions! As you could see if you went through our archives at , you are in the right place if you wish to discuss the dhamma, which also means the truth or the Buddha's teachings. Any subject is therefore relevant, but the abhidhamma being about all realities, and the first of the texts that is predicted to disappear in the future as Buddhism ends, as well as a unique science not found in any other religions or sciences of the world, which makes it a very special study and I am very glad you are interested in it. We will try to answer any questions you have or find out the answers for you from experts in the field. I personally like discussions since they make me think about things I sometimes take for granted or have forgotten, as well as learn new things when I look up the references or ask the authorities on the subject. Looking forward to your messages, Amara 272 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 9:35am Subject: Egroups technical problem Has anyone noticed a problem with getting messages? since egroups changed around i have been getting my messages rather slowly. I just checked the archives of dhammastudy group and noticed that 4 messages from days ago still havent come to me. It seems to be Ok now though as I am getting the most recent. It could be a problem with my email - but I do notice a statement under help saying that they had problems. Robert 273 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 11:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Mike, I just saw your message in the archives. For some reason it didnt come to my server. Your comments are well-worth investigating as there is much confusion about these matters. You wrote that "I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own experience, such conditions seem to be the most supportive of the arising of Right Concentration." Could you explain in more detail by "in my experience"? Also could you tell us what "Right Concentration" is when you have it? I want to write a useful response to your comments and some extra details give my reply clear direction. Thanks Robert 274 From: Ivan Walsh Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 5:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the new foundation building starting in May. The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. If this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at this egroup address). For those who can’t attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at this e-groups address. The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have copies. Regards, Ivan 275 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 0:30pm Subject: welcome Bongkojpriya Dear Bongkojpriya (Betty), Welcome to the group. You are in a great place to learn about the finer details of Dhamma: Bangkok has many helpful people - most notably Sujin Boriharnwanaket. The foundation also has many books for free distribution (for some reason though they are always running out of English copies). Did you see Ivans message today about the meetings in English? It would be of great benefit for you to attend. But please don't limit yourself to the meetings: We look forward to your comments and questions on the discussion group. Robert --- 276 From: Heng Shun Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 5:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Amara, I carefully read the quote from Khun Sujin's Summary of Paramatthadhamma, Chapter 7 that you posted in response to my quote on the pratitya-samutpada from the Ten Grounds of a Bodhisattva Chapter in the Avatamsaka Sutra. In the Summary Khun Sujin explained quite well the continuing process of the samsara-vatta as long as prajna/panna remains undeveloped enought to clearly realize the arya-satya-dharma/ariya-sacca-dhamma. I am in total agreement with everything that Khun Sujin said (I do look forward to reading the entire Summary). According to the Mahayana the Bodhisattva out of great compassion (maha-karuna) for all beings (knowing clearly "beings" are merely mental constructs) who are undergoing duhkha/dukkha as they are bound to the samsara-vatta, makes vows (pranidhana) to assist them with the ultimate aim of being a major supporting condition to enable them to realize arya-satya-dharma. He makes these vows and cultivates the six paramitas of dana, shila, kshanti, virya, dhyana and prajna for life after life after life for literally millions of lifetimes. The citta stream of the Bodhisattva is thus quite unique. The force of his vows causes him to remain in samsara-vatta even though at one point his accumulations are such that he has the requisite prajna for the realization of arya-satya-dharma. According to the Ten Grounds of a Bodhisattva chapter, the Bodhisattva on the 8th Ground (Bhumi), that of Acala (Unmoving) has realized Arahatship, but through the force of his vows based on great compassion, he remains in the samsara-vatta, until he realizes the omniscience (sarvajna) of a Buddha. Granted this teaching seems to be unique to the Mahayana, however I look forward to learning more about the special qualities of the citta stream of the Bodhisattva in Abhidhamma as expounded by Khun Sujin. I'm sure there must be a big difference between the citta stream of the Bodhisattva as compared to the common worldling (prthagjana/puthujjana) in Khun Sujin's exposition of Abhidhamma. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 277 From: amara chay Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] >I look >forward to learning more about the special qualities of the citta stream of >the Bodhisattva in Abhidhamma as expounded by Khun Sujin. I'm sure there >must be a big difference between the citta stream of the Bodhisattva as >compared to the common worldling (prthagjana/puthujjana) in Khun Sujin's >exposition of Abhidhamma. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun Reverend sir, I'm not sure that even K.S. could give you a glimpse of the Buddha's mind even though she has explained the mechanisms along with other kinds of citta in her book. Only an equal can really tell what it is truly like, and not even the arahanta are always right about other people's thoughts: there was one incident in the Tipitaka where two arahanta in two cities had heard of each other so often that they set out for the other's vihara to meet in person. Midway they happened to spend the night at the same place and talked for a long time, apparently having a great discussion, and parted in the morning to reach the other's dwellings only to learn that the other had gone precisely to see them in their own home towns. Therefore being an arahanta does not mean that they had any supernatural powers, (though a good number certainly did) they could not read minds, otherwise they would have recognized one another. But none of them had any more kilesa or any more unpleasant feeling in their lives, nor any misunderstanding of the realities that appear to them. Even then the purity of their thoughts can only be undestood theoretically, what peace it must be to have kiriya citta in all the javana-vithi one can only imagine! The theoretic part is very well explained by K.S. in her book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', three quarters of which is now in the advanced section of and I will be adding another two chapters today, in case any English readers would like to read them before K. S. arrives in the States. I found that all the questions I had about nama and rupa are answered there, plus much more I would have never had the knowledge to ask, so perhaps it might provide grounds for a deeper discussion then, Your friend in the dhamma, Amara 278 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 4:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] dear venerable Heng shun, I am very glad that you can find so much agreement between the Theravada and Mahayana abhidhamma. I remember that when I read the literature from your temple (a number of years ago)that I found it to be much closer to theravada than other types of Mahayana. Even the vinaya had many similarities. Your tradition is clearly a very early strand of Mahayana. On the issue of the cittas of Bodhisattas I think khun amara answered well. Just one thing for me to add. In one sense the Buddha was totally different from us - unlimited compassion and wisdom. In another sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- there were only moments of citta , cetasika and rupa. Robert --- 279 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English I'm new to the study group. Would you kindly tell me where the "new foundation building" is located. I would be very interested in discussions centering on Abhidhamma, but will be in the States throughout the month of May. May I assume that the 391 telephone number given below is in Bangkok? Bongkojpriya Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: Ivan Walsh Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 11:12 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English > Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the > new foundation building starting in May. > The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. If > this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let > Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at > this egroup address). > For those who can't attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at > this e-groups address. > The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have > copies. > Regards, > Ivan > 280 From: amara chay Date: Fri Apr 14, 2000 5:39pm Subject: 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' Dear friends in the Dhamma, I have just finished uploading more of the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', including a chapter on vipassana. , advanced section, 'Summary... '. But for beginners I would suggest starting at the beginning of the book and take your time to take in the information, to me it does not seem important how much we read or remember, but how much we understand, and apply the theories in everyday life. How is one's body different from a dead person if not through our having nama while they have only rupa, for example? Your rupa might even be interchangeable, as through transplants, but without the condition for nama to arise, it would not. How are the realities that appear to us through the senses different? The Buddha taught us that all are different realities, so how is color different from sound? One can prove his teachings for ourselves by experiencing each different reality fully and seeing them for what they really are, instead of seeing only people and things, but as they appear through the eyes, the ears, etc. The six senses are the only ways you can learn about anything, millions of theories and studies can only be learnt through these six doorways, but do we know them as they really are? Panna in the Buddhist sense is to attain the most powerful levels of knowledge about the truth, ones that can eradicate kilesa. The beginning of the development of panna is through intellectual understanding of the teachings, and the practical study of realities as they appear to you. You will find the subject inexhaustible and always changing, it is very hard to get bored when one has some awareness of the present, ever evolving moment, and even science will agree that at this very moment the atoms in your hand are changing, even if you cannot see it. But even what you can see is impermanent, once the moment is gone it can never come back again. This is all dhamma, the truth. The 'Summary...' will tell you in much more detail what the Buddha taught about the realities of our own lives. I hope you will find it interesting, I myself am fascinated by the Buddha's omniscience! Amara 283 From: Heng Shun Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 6:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Prajna-wisdom etc. Robert and Amara, Appreciated your comments. I'm enjoying reading the Summary, and will try to have it completed before Khun Sujin's visit. We have done a detailed comparison between our Vinaya (we follow the Dharmagupta) and the Theravada. The first 150 rules, including all the major and significant regulations, are identical- the order is a little different. There are some differences in the minor training rules. You had also said, "Just one thing for me to add. In one sense the Buddha was totally different from us - unlimited compassionand wisdom. In another sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- there were only moments of citta ,cetasika and rupa." This sounds like it could have come right out of one of the Mahayana Prajna-Paramita Sutras. However, the Prajna Sutras would also say even cittas, cetasikas and rupas cannot be got at. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 284 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 3:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' Dear Amara Chay, Your message below is particularly cogent and important. Many thanks for thinking of it and sending it out. The study of Dhamma is so vast it is mind boggling to imagine just how much there is! And we have all just barely scratched the surface. This thought occurred to me earlier today while I was listening to the monks chant during a royal ceremony here in Bangkok on the occasion of Songkran, the Thai (and Lao, Cambodian, Burmese) new year. And then, to see the same idea expressed by you when I opened your e-mail on my computer, was a great joy. Sincerely, Betty Yugala ----- Original Message ----- From: amara chay Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 11:39 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' > Dear friends in the Dhamma, > I have just finished uploading more of the book 'Summary of > Paramatthadhamma', including a chapter on vipassana. > , advanced section, 'Summary... '. But for > beginners I would suggest starting at the beginning of the book and take > your time to take in the information, to me it does not seem important how > much we read or remember, but how much we understand, and apply the theories > in everyday life. How is one's body different from a dead person if not > through our having nama while they have only rupa, for example? Your rupa > might even be interchangeable, as through transplants, but without the > condition for nama to arise, it would not. How are the realities that > appear to us through the senses different? The Buddha taught us that all > are different realities, so how is color different from sound? One can > prove his teachings for ourselves by experiencing each different reality > fully and seeing them for what they really are, instead of seeing only > people and things, but as they appear through the eyes, the ears, etc. The > six senses are the only ways you can learn about anything, millions of > theories and studies can only be learnt through these six doorways, but do > we know them as they really are? Panna in the Buddhist sense is to attain > the most powerful levels of knowledge about the truth, ones that can > eradicate kilesa. The beginning of the development of panna is through > intellectual understanding of the teachings, and the practical study of > realities as they appear to you. You will find the subject inexhaustible > and always changing, it is very hard to get bored when one has some > awareness of the present, ever evolving moment, and even science will agree > that at this very moment the atoms in your hand are changing, even if you > cannot see it. But even what you can see is impermanent, once the moment is > gone it can never come back again. This is all dhamma, the truth. The > 'Summary...' will tell you in much more detail what the Buddha taught about > the realities of our own lives. I hope you will find it interesting, I > myself am fascinated by the Buddha's omniscience! > Amara 285 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 4:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Prajna-wisdom etc. Dear Venerable Heng Shun, Thank you for the information comparing the vinayas – so many similarities. You referred to my comment: "In another > sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- > there were only moments of > citta ,cetasika and rupa." And you said : "This sounds like it could have come right out of one > of the Mahayana > Prajna-Paramita Sutras. However, the Prajna Sutras > would also say even > cittas, cetasikas and rupas cannot be got at. > > Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun" Glad you could understand what I meant - it might seem a bit strange to some. Now a few words on the nature of dhammas (cittas, cetasikas and rupas). The word dhamma is often translated as reality. But the word reality has connotations of something substantial whereas dhammas , are too evanescent to imagine. As I said recently on this list. Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. Take a moment of seeing: For seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma. But it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the theravada is not quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as the Prajna- parimita sutta, it does nevertheless demolish any ideas of substantiality. I think this needs consideration as we(I mean Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of mind, and so on. However what we mean by moments is rather open to interpretation. Some might have an idea of a moment as a self-contained unit- sort of like a box that contains things but that is prone to disappear rather quickly. However from the Patthana - the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that "moments" are highly dynamic with influences from past and present factors. The dhammas themselevs are not different form the quality they posses. In fact the subcommentary to the Dhammasangani says that "there is no other thing than the quality born by it" . And no moment is identical with another-It is true that such dhammas as sanna or vedana are classified under the same heading but the actual quality is influenced by so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of feeling is exactly the same. I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atom (This is sort of how I saw things in my early days) is not correct. Robert . 286 From: amara chay Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Prajna-wisdom etc. >I'm enjoying reading the Summary, and will try >to have it completed before Khun Sujin's visit. Reverend sir and dear friends in the dhamma, I have added a short chapter today, the 'Appendix- Rupa', please let me know if you find any linguistic mistakes, it was such a short and technical thing I didn't ask anyone to revise it, so PLEASE tell me if you find anything! Amara 287 From: amara chay Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:49:29 +0700 >The study of Dhamma is so vast it is mind >boggling to imagine just how much there is! And we have all just barely >scratched the surface. This thought occurred to me earlier today while I >was >listening to the monks chant during a royal ceremony here in Bangkok on the >occasion of Songkran, the Thai (and Lao, Cambodian, Burmese) new year. And >then, to see the same idea expressed by you when I opened your e-mail on my >computer, was a great joy. >Sincerely, >Betty Yugala Dear friend in the dhamma, First I would like to thank you for signing our guest book, we really appreciated it, and it made us realize you were titled. May I ask you how you would prefer to be addressed by us? I am a little overwhelmed by the choice, and it would make it so much easier for us if you would settle the matter so we can all call you by the same name or title. Actually I will miss wondering how you prefer to be called! Thank you also for your kind encouragements, Amara Chayabongse 288 From: Mike Potter Date: Sat Apr 15, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Robert, I am grateful for your inquiry. By "my experience", I refer to the moment when an insight has arisen in my awareness; and on reflection, the conditions that were present when the insight arose, and the causes which precipitated those conditions. I have sometimes experienced insight in daily activities other than meditation, and at those times - on reflection - I have noted that all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path were present and effectively supporting that experience in some significant degree. But the deepest insights into anicca, dukkha and anatta have arisen for me while on meditation retreat, after several days of constant practice of mindfulness in the four deportments, when the mind is calm and receptive, and has let go of a "self" reference. Here, too, all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path were present and effectively supporting the experience. I understand there to be three kinds of samadhi (concentration): absorption, access, and momentary concentration. I do not practice the jhanas, nor do I strive to achieve either absorption or access concentration. Although these can be suitable means of preparation for vipassana, my aim in meditation is "momentary concentration", where no attempt is made to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from my field of attention. Generally, I find that the mind is too scattered, and effect of the hindrances too intense, to have a deep experience of anicca, dukkha and anatta without the support that meditation provides. I also find that periodic retreats (either in formal retreats with my teacher or on self retreats) and my daily meditation practice support my practice of vipassana in daily life. Momentary concentration suppresses the hindrances to a degree equal to access concentration, so the mind is like a cool, still lake where the ripple of even the smallest pebble dropped into it can be experienced at every point on the lake's surface. When my mind has reached momentary concentration, mindfulness is directed to the changing states of mind and body, noticing any phenomena that presents itself, and maintaining a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As this noticing continues, mindfulness become stronger and stronger, until it becomes established one-pointedly on the constantly changing stream of events, rather than on a particular object that would support access or absorption concentration. Any perception of "self" (even an observer) is not present - only the rising and falling of phenomena, including mindfulness itself, due to causes and conditions. So this is what Right Concentration is when I have it, with its supports and requisite conditions: "a singleness of mind equipped with these seven path factors - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness." (MN 117) Yours in the Dhamma, Mike Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > I just saw your message in the archives. For some > reason it didnt come to my server. > Your comments are well-worth investigating as there is > much confusion about these matters. > > You wrote that "I don't mean to imply that Right > Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and > walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own > experience, such conditions seem to be the most > supportive of the arising of Right Concentration." > > Could you explain in more detail by "in my > experience"? Also could you tell us what "Right > Concentration" is when you have it? > > I want to write a useful response to your comments and > some extra details give my reply clear direction. > Thanks > Robert > 289 From: Heng Shun Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 6:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] more on Prajna-wisdom Robert, You said, "Every conditioning factor is similarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the Theravada is not quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as the Prajna-paramita Sutras, it does nevertheless demolish any ideas of substantiality. I think this needs consideration as we (I mean Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of mind and so on. However what we mean by moments is rather open to interpretation.....I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atoms is not correct." Thanks for clarifying for everyone that the Theravada, like the Mahayana, expounds the unsubstantiality of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas. I also want to clarify that Mahayana as based on the traditional Sutras does not really have as radical an interpretation of these ideas as some people proclaim. Some people talk of the "emptiness" of "dharmas", that is cittas, cetasikas and rupas, as is expounded in the Heart Sutra, and grossly misinterpret this to mean the "non-existence" of Samsara. Then they go on to say, believe and often act in a way as if to say, "Samsara is 'empty', therefore I can create whatever karma I wish, because karma and its results are empty." Thus they deny the most fundamental Buddhist teaching of cause and effect, karma and vipaka- "it's all empty" they say. I've even heard of a so-called teacher (now deceased) who said it didn't matter that he was an audacious drunkerd and womanizer because he had "crazy wisdom" based on this gross misunderstanding of emptiness. Where's the basis for these ideas in the traditional Mahayana Sutras? In the stories of the Buddha and his followers, have we ever heard of such concepts? Let me clarify this point. The traditional Mahayana Sutras do not teach this idea at all. Let's look at the famous quote on Nirvana from the Pali Udana (Pataligamiya Vagga, Sutta No. 1): "There is, Monks, that realm, wherein there is not earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of thought nor lack of thought. There is not this world or a world beyond, or both together, or sun or moon. This, I say, Monks, has no coming, no going, no staying, no passing away, and no arising; without support, without duration and without any basis. This, indeed, is the end of dukkha." (my translation) The Mahayana Sutras do say that indeed from the vantage point of "the Buddha and great Bodhisattvas and Arhats" who have realized Nirvana with or without residue, Samsara in a sense has no "true reality" for them. I cannot over-emphasize these words "for them". Also, what do I mean by "no true reality"? I mean no more and no less than the quote from the Udana above. So this does not mean that Samsara for beings with avidya/avijja-ignorance is experienced in this way. Samsara, as is explained quite thoroughly in the Abhidharma, consists of cittas, cetasikas and rupas that arise and fall away in accordance with the laws of cause and effect continuously. Samsara for those with avidya is not Nirvana. To deny the laws of cause and effect, or proclaim that our own vantage point is the same as that of the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and Arhats is, unfortunately, still a problem that exists in some groups that make up the Buddhist community here in the United States. The Mahayana Sutras, particularly the Avatamska (Flower Adornment; Chinese: Hua Yen) Sutra has a magnificent vision of the Bodhisattva path. It does not teach the denial of the law of karma and vipaka or the non-existence of Samsara. These ideas are gross misinterpretations and "innovations" by people who really need to do a lot more study of the traditional Mahayana Sutras, not to speak of more inner cultivation and practical application of the Dharma in their daily lives. Therefore, although I'm a devoted student of the Mahayana, study of the Abhidharma from the Pali as expounded by Khun Sujin is quite suitable and beneficial- an important tool to the practical task of seeing the true nature of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas in our own personal experience right now. Sincerely in Dharma, Heng Shun 290 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:04pm Subject: Re: Interrelationship between 2 persons' kamma Ven'ble Heng Sun, Firstly, a belated welcome to the list from me. Sarah and I have been in Indonesia for the past week and were not able to connect to the internet at our hotel for more than a few minutes at a time. We are very happy to have you contributing to the discussion. I am not sure, even after seeing Ivan's photo, whether we ever met in Bangkok. My apologies if we did and I have forgotten. I would like to offer some thoughts on the interesting question you posed- >What is the inter-relationship >between one person's karma and another person's karma-vipaka? For example, >when I'm speaking to you in person, in my reality it is karma-cause. Yet >this same speech in your reality is vipaka-result. How is it that my cause >perfectly corresponds to your result? In abhidhamma terms, I suggest it is not correct to say that the speech is both A's kamma and B's vipaka. A's kamma is the cetana cetasika that arises with the citta. B's vipaka is the moment of experiencing the sound through the eardoor. There is no commonality in abhidhamma terms between the two. Furthermore, if it is B's vipaka not to hear that sound, then conditions will be such (external noise interference, momentary failure of earsense to arise etc) that he does not. The only 'perfect correspondence' at any given moment is between a person's vipaka and his own kamma! Jonothan 291 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English Ivan and Elle, This is geat news. Sarah and I will try to get over to Bangkok more often to join you. jonothan >From: "Ivan Walsh" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 21:12:36 PDT > >Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the >new foundation building starting in May. >The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. >If >this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let >Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at >this egroup address). >For those who can’t attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at >this e-groups address. >The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have >copies. >Regards, >Ivan > 292 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 3:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Egroups technical problem I have had a similar problem to Robert. I suggest other members also go directly to the group's website and check if there are any messages posted which have not been received by email. To do this, simply point your browser to- and click on 'Messages'. Jonothan >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Egroups technical problem >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:35:58 -0700 (PDT) > > > Has anyone noticed a problem with getting messages? >since egroups changed around i have been getting my >messages rather slowly. I just checked the archives of >dhammastudy group and noticed that 4 messages from >days ago still havent come to me. It seems to be Ok >now though as I am getting the most recent. >It could be a problem with my email - but I do notice >a statement under help saying that they had problems. >Robert > 293 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 4:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Mike, How much of how we interpret experiences, especially spiritual experiences, is colored by the tradition we belong to? The Mormons who visit me say that they have had some experience of GOD – when I ask what thus experience was I get different answers- clarity; a feeling of intense purity, it varies. ….I have an American friend who told me he has had “mind to mind Transmission” from his Tibetan Guru – apparently this is not full enlightenment but a significant stage on the way in his tradition. I meet other people and read books where different unusual experiences are seen to be signs of deep spiritual progress. Vedanta is different from Zen, the Sufi path different again. The Buddha used manifold means to help us see the truth: In the Netti-pakarana (translated as The Guide PTS ,attributed by the Theravada tradition to Maha- kaccana , the arahant who was foremost in elucidating in detail what had been said in brief). The Netti explains that one of the ways to group beings is according to whether they have outstanding, medium or blunt faculties. (p137 , 16 modes of Conveying in Combined treatment, vii knowledge of the disposition of creatures faculties). It says that the Buddha teaches in detail to those with blunt faculties (because those with outstanding faculties learn quickly and do not need such detail). Another section states that “the Buddha discloses quiet to those of keen faculties, quiet and insight to those with medium faculties and insight alone to one with blunt faculties.” Under which category do we fit? I know that I am one with exceedingly blunt faculties, a slow one. Thus I need the many details from the suttas and Abhidhamma, and commentaries, and that the most important work I can do is that of insight. Thus even when I am busy I learn to study realities (sometimes – no me who could decide to always have awareness) – what else can I do. Time is running out: soon this life is over and a new life begins. The Netti says “‘Giving right view first place’: when right view is admitted the noble eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because it is from right view that right intention is given being, from right intention that right speech is given being, from right action that right livelihood is given being, from right effort that mindfulness is given being, from right mindfulness that right concentration is given being, and from right concentration that right deliverance is given being, and from right deliverance that right knowing and seeing of deliverance is given being.” .. An aeon is long: so long it is hard to say. The number of aeons is beyond count – for thus long have we been bound by delusion and craving. How many times have we followed non- Buddhist teachings? How many times have we followed imitation Buddhist practices? For how many lives have we been convinced that we were on the right path, or even enlightened, unaware of subtle micch-ditthi. It is like a friend said to me; we are like pickles in a pickle jar – totally saturated with delusion, aversion and craving. Sometimes the pickling is sweet but there is still somewhere the flavour of self. It is always amazing to me the power of the Dhamma that it can dry this delusion out. So much gratitude to the Buddha for explaining so well, so much gratitude to those monks – the monks at the three great councils, the monks at the Mahavihara in Anauradhapura, Sri Lanka in and the monks in other Buddhist countries who preserved the Tipitaka and commentaries so carefully for these 2600 years. In the Canki sutta (middle length sayings (the 95th sutta) Bharadjiva asks the Buddah about the thing most helpful for final arrival at the truth. The Buddha replied that striving is most helpful for the final arrival at truth. “But what.. is most helpful for striving? Scrutiny is most helpful for striving, Bharadvaja. If one does not scrutinize one will not strive; but because one scrutinizes one strives. That is why scrutiny is most helpful for striving. What..is most helpful for scrutiny? Application of the will is most helpful for striving…. What .. is most helpful for application of will? Zeal is most helpful for application of will.. What… is most helpful for zeal? A reflective acceptance of the teachings is most helpful for zeal, Bharadvaja….. What …is most helpful for a reflective acceptance of the teachings? Examination of the meaning is most helpful…for a reflective acceptance of the teachings… What is most helpful for examination of the meaning? Memorising the teachings is most helpful for examining the meaning… What is most helpful for memorising the teachings? Hearing the teachings is most helpful for memorising the teaching… What is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma? …” Where are we now – have we heard enough? Have we fully examined the meaning – What does reflective acceptance mean? By some standards I now live a busy life- work, family. At other times I am by myself- In December I was in India for 2 weeks visiting the holy places. Is there a difference? Is it different when I teach a class of students or when I take time to walk in the hills near the city? The situations, the problems, the stories of life, are the shadows of realities.As insight develops we may begin to find the stories of life less interesting. We begin to see below the surface. Past or future mistakes or achievements, no matter big or small, are just icing - bitter or sweet. The shadows, the concepts, are still there but the real interest lies with dhammas, with studying the momentary realities that are arising at the 6 doors. It becomes so natural – one does not have to try so much to have it. No minding about “situation” about being in a special place, doing special things, learning special techniques. Sometimes, it is true, we go off the path, we neglect the study of dhammas or do regrettable things. How could it be otherwise, we have for uncountable aeons accumulated desire, aversion, and ignorance- they are not quickly overcome. Do we have the courage not to overestimate our abilities? Can we, instead of looking at a moment of sati as an achievement, see it as just another dhamma, a conditioned phenomena, not ours? Can we look at moments of calm as merely namas- no more important than any other moment? Can we, instead of hiding our defilements bring them out in the open?-they can teach us who we really are. You wrote that you have right view now – but there are levels of right view, levels of wrong view. We should become more modest in our assessment of progress. Everything is different from how we thought it would be, how we thought it was. The whole world is completely different, the practice, this moment, everything. It is like peeling a large onion, nothing is left, no core. Our old way of thinking is gradually overturned. In the beginning it seems like there is “us” making effort. It seems that we must try so hard to understand. Quiet places seem beneficial – if we are in a center with a teacher we hear the Dhamma every day, we are in a different environment from our normal life. The people around us are thinking only of Dhamma . It seems that this helps. If we concentrate we have calmness or unusual experiences, Because of the atmosphere and encouragement it seems that our “mind” turns towards kusala. Later, if panna develops, we see that there is no self who can make effort, who can try, who has concentration. No “mind” to make calm. We see that every moment is just like any other moment. There are feeling, perception, mental formations, and material phenomena. The feelings that are so pleasant are just feelings, the ones that are so bad are just feelings. The perception of “pure clarity” is just perception, the perception of this moment, just perception. The most refined sensations in the body are just sensations in the body. The most rough sensations just sensations. Whatever “situation” there are only namas and rupas . Direct understanding can come in like a flash of lightning-even when one is tired, worried, distracted. Depending on accumulations one may still value time alone to consider Dhamma. Some people work less, live simple lives. Others naturally think of Dhamma even when they are busy. Others experience realities directly at any time. There is no rule about this: certainly insight can come while one is sitting quietly: but not if wrong view is present. We cannot suddenly rush to clear insight. Even the level of intellectual understanding of Dhamma is not so straightforward. The Kindred sayings XlV (Kindred sayings on the Way Chapter III Perversion the unworthy 9b): “Herein, monks a certain one has wrong view , and the rest.. wrong concentration; but he also has wrong knowledge and wrong liberation.” One like this thinks he is enlightened . This may refer to ways outside the sasana but we should know that there can be wrong paths even within the Buddhist tradition: “this path is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise”: Middle length sayings Sutta 95 Canki. We have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what sati is, what right concentration is. I am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I still need to hear more, this life and future lives. Robert 294 From: amara chay Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 11:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] more on Prajna-wisdom >Let's look at the famous quote on Nirvana from the >Pali Udana (Pataligamiya Vagga, Sutta No. 1): > > "There is, Monks, that realm, wherein there is not earth, no water, >no >fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite >consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of thought nor lack of >thought. There is not this world or a world beyond, or both together, or >sun or moon. This, I say, Monks, has no coming, no going, no staying, no >passing away, and no arising; without support, without duration and >without >any basis. This, indeed, is the end of dukkha." (my translation) > > The Mahayana Sutras do say that indeed from the vantage point of "the >Buddha and great Bodhisattvas and Arhats" who have realized Nirvana with or >without residue, Samsara in a sense has no "true reality" for them. I >cannot over-emphasize these words "for them". Also, what do I mean by "no >true reality"? I mean no more and no less than the quote from the Udana >above. Venerable sir, May I suggest that you are confusing the state of nibbhana and the totally different realities of samsara? They are the direct opposite, and the Buddha and all ariya puggala realize this, though through different levels of panna. I suggest you go through the section on the different levels of nana of vipassana in the chapter on Vipassana we just added to the 'Summary' in the advanced section, . Having attained arahantship does not mean that the buddha and the arahanta do not have any more kamavaccara citta (as opposed to the rupavacara brahma up to the arupavacara brahma levels), but they have eradicated kilesa level by level until they have none left and therefore no more cause for rebirth. Without any kilesa, all their akusala as well as kusala citta that are kamma no longer arise, and only kiriya citta do in any circumstances, in the vithi citta, which is where you accumulate further vipaka (the result of kamma). With no more causes, good or bad, to be born again, they would attain parinibbana of absolute nothingness, the utmost peace, the cessation of samsara for them. But while they had not yet attained parinibbana, they still have the vipaka of former lives of wherever they were living, even after they have achieved nibbhana. Any citta of the kamavacara bhumi is still a kamavacara citta, so they still see good or bad sights even as we do, according to thier individual vipaka. Their reactions to them is no longer kamma, though, but kiriya citta, no matter the bhumi they are in. Which may explain how they can endure such hardship for others even after they had attained the absolute happiness of nibbhana, they stayed on in this comparatively lowly world, just a step above the hell worlds: no matter the hardship or the pleasure, all is equal to them, they do not distinguish themselves from others or things any more (no more mana!). This reminds me of how my mother cried on one trip (with Khun Sujin) to Gaya, at the foot of the Bodhi tree. She was so grateful and at the same time as, probably from an excess of maternal instinct, so sorry for the Buddha, the greatest prince of the time, with such great physical as well as mental prowess that he could lift an impossibly heavy bow with his toes and shoot I don't remember how many arrows with superhuman accuracy when his father told him to on the occasion of his sixteenth birthday in the presence of all the princes of the land. (No wonder when, after he was enlightened and went to a city, the King came out to offer him his throne- they all knew one another). In his great generosity, however, he abandoned all the palaces, his perfect family, his entire inheritance, in order to find a way to end all kilesa to share with the world. He not only left all the finery but had to live on what was offered him, on 'food he had never even smelled, much less seen'. Later, after attaining the jhanas, and so skilled at performing all kinds of miracles that his teachers asked him to stay on and teach, he realized that that was not the right path and set out on his own until he found it, making his purity that of the Sammasammbuddha, of unequal knowledge and prowess of supreme mental and physical nature above that of any deva or brahma, he walk hundreds of yojana in order to preach to a single person in whom he saw the right accumulations. He performed the most difficult 'miracles' to show the jadila (I don't remember the correct spellings, but the fire worshippers) that he had mastered their art but that it still was not the right path, and told their master that he was not an arahanta, while the Buddha was, and was able to enlighten them too. When there was a great famine and a bhikku asked if the bhikku himself could perform a miracle to estract food from deep in the ground, he did not give permission- apparently this is not what they should be involved with. And for forty-five years he taught priests, bhikkus, kings, merchants, farmers and slaves indifferently, so that the land was for a time filled with arahanta like himself. Even in his last rebirth, when a deva invited him while he was still in a heavenly plane, to enlighten the earth, he made careful consideration when and where it might do the most good. For example he chose an era when human lifespan was at an average of a century (though he attained parinibbhana at eighty, many of his great disciples lived to be 120 years old, if I remember correctly, such as Maha Kassapa). A longer lifespan would make it harder to see the impermanence of samsara while a shorter one would be over too soon. The world we are in is also the lowest of the bhumi to have enough kusala citta to learn about dhamma, any lower and the suffering and ignorance would be too great. Everything was due to over four hundred thousand kappas, I don't know how many millions of eons, of planning and perparation from the day he was predicted to be a future Buddha by the Buddha Dipankara. He spent innumerable lifetimes studying with every bahu sutta no matter who, or where, in order to become enlightened and find us the best and only way to eradicate kilesa, and we are so lucky to still have his teachings availabe to us, even at this mid-era of Buddhism. For a greater detail of the Buddha's life, there is a book in Thai taken from some of Khun Sujin's lectures, but you will have a long wait before I finish the translation, I've only begun, I'm sorry to say. I still work on it when I have the time, and it's not such a big book, so please be patient! (I just realized I am beginning to sound like a trite movie trailer!!!) Amara 295 From: amara chay Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 11:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English >Sarah and I will try to get over to Bangkok more often >to join you. >jonothan Jonothan and Sarah, I was just wondering what happened to you. I'm also glad you'll be coming more often, and Khun Sujin will be so pleased! Amara 296 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up Dear Ven Heng Shun and Betty as Jonothan has mentioned, we've been away and belatedly as others have said we're very glad you've found your way here. Mike, it's also great to read your contributions. In fact I'm a little overwhelmed as I try to catch up in the limited time I have available! Lots of great correspondence and some very useful responses and reminders from Robert and Amara too. There are also a few new 'lurking' members...everyone is welcome..Just an occasional short note to show your presence would be appreciated but not compulsory! We hope you find the list as useful as we do and are just delighted it functions so well in our absence. Actually we're all 'new' as we only started the list a couple of days before this year...a millenium gift to us all! Finally, please use subject headings and modify them as appropriate as it helps everyone to track messages....we all forget sometimes and some of us make other silly mistakes...that's fine too! Sarah 297 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Egroups technical problem >Robert, jonothan has responded to this, but I'll just add that sometime a couple of messages didn't come to my email and sometimes they come in the wrong order. However they came correctly to Jonothan's which suggests s'times it's a problem w/ one's email server rather than w/ E groups... Sarah > > Has anyone noticed a problem with getting messages? >since egroups changed around i have been getting my >messages rather slowly. I just checked the archives of >dhammastudy group and noticed that 4 messages from >days ago still havent come to me. It seems to be Ok >now though as I am getting the most recent. >It could be a problem with my email - but I do notice >a statement under help saying that they had problems. >Robert 298 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 5:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dhamma Study Group Discussions in English Ivan & Elle, Thanks so much for keeping us informed...let us know how the discussions go. It 's good to have proper recording too. As Jonothan has said, I too hope that now we're over health scares & moves, we can get over more often. We never know! i know you'll be off very soon w/ K.Sujin to California. I hope you all have a useful and enjoyable trip. Pls pass on our best wishes to K.Sujin for the trip too. We look f/w to hearing any news of discussions held while you're away or on your return. On our much needed R&R in Bali, we enjoyed reading Nina's account of the trip and discussions in India last year which you joined. jonothan had organised to go, booked, paid and was greatly looking forward to it. Just before the trip he was told he needed urgent surgery and had to cancel. We have examples like this all the time...we choose route A and end up on route B by conditions...no self who knows or can control even the next moment of seeing... Elle, we'd love to hear any comments, questions, views or stories from you here on the list too! Sarah >Elle has arranged for Ajahn Sujin to hold weekly English discussions at the >new foundation building starting in May. >The talks have been tentatively set for the late afternoon on Saturdays. >If >this is not convenient for those who wish to join this class, please let >Elle know so that the time can be changed (@ 391-5858 or 81-1092-3 or at >this egroup address). >For those who can’t attend, your questions can be posted on the internet at >this e-groups address. >The talks will be recorded and made available to those who wish to have >copies. >Regards, >Ivan 299 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 5:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Inter-relationship and kamma Dear Ven Heng Shun, Robert and Jonothan (just today) have given excellent responses to your good question. Like Robert, I find it very helpful to read, consider and understand a little about paccaya. Nina's book on paccaya has been very helpful to me. It reminds us that kamma is only one of 24 conditions and for this moment of say 'seeing' to arise, many different conditions are at work like perhaps the ingredients in a soup. With such ingredients in such and such quantity added at such and such time, the final taste of the soup or in this case the 'seeing' could not be any other way. No self at all. Thinking of concepts such as about the 'inter-relationship' or about others' kamma or whatever are just that...concepts. The thinking and the seeing can be understood as realities. The concepts remain concepts. Best regards, Sarah >There are 24 paccaya, conditions, explained in The >Patthana, the last book of the Abhidhamma. Kamma is >the most imporatnt from an ethical point of view but >others work their way also. Extremely complex but then >so is this confusing knot we call life. The Buddha >classified conditions in the simplest most accurate >way so that we could - as much as we can - untangle >the mess. >Robert > 300 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 10:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] more on Prajna-wisdom dear venerable Heng Shun, I have to say I am getting rather impressed. It is wonderful that you are so eager, even after so many years as a monk, to keep investigating. This must be due to accumulations from this and past lives. Thank you very much for explaining the original ideas of Mahayana - which I see are much closer to theravada than I had thought. I think the more we learn about abhidhamma the more we stop thinking about labels (such as theravada and mahayana ). Please keep up the good work. Oh, and if one of your samaneras happens to have a taperecorder I would love to receive a copy of your talks with Khun sujin. (Please don't go to too much trouble though. I know your temple keeps strict vinaya - so if it is bothersome to arrange such things please forget I asked.\ robert- --- Heng Shun wrote: > Robert, > > You said, "Every conditioning factor is > similarly evanescent as is > every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is > to highlight the > Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the > Theravada is not quite as > radical in its interpretation of reality as the > Prajna-paramita Sutras, it > does nevertheless demolish any ideas of > substantiality. I think this needs > consideration as we (I mean Theravada people) are > prone to talk about > "moments" of mind and so on. However what we mean > by moments is rather open > to interpretation.....I write all this as I want to > emphasize that any idea > of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atoms > is not correct." > > Thanks for clarifying for everyone that the > Theravada, like the > Mahayana, expounds the unsubstantiality of cittas, > cetasikas, and rupas. > > I also want to clarify that Mahayana as based > on the traditional Sutras > does not really have as radical an interpretation of > these ideas as some > people proclaim. Some people talk of the > "emptiness" of "dharmas", that is > cittas, cetasikas and rupas, as is expounded in the > Heart Sutra, and grossly > misinterpret this to mean the "non-existence" of > Samsara. Then they go on > to say, believe and often act in a way as if to say, > "Samsara is 'empty', > therefore I can create whatever karma I wish, > because karma and its results > are empty." Thus they deny the most fundamental > Buddhist teaching of cause > and effect, karma and vipaka- "it's all empty" they > say. I've even heard > of a so-called teacher (now deceased) who said it > didn't matter that he was > an audacious drunkerd and womanizer because he had > "crazy wisdom" based on > this gross misunderstanding of emptiness. Where's > the basis for these ideas > in the traditional Mahayana Sutras? In the stories > of the Buddha and his > followers, have we ever heard of such concepts? > > Let me clarify this point. The traditional > Mahayana Sutras do not > teach this idea at all. Let's look at the famous > quote on Nirvana from the > Pali Udana (Pataligamiya Vagga, Sutta No. 1): > > "There is, Monks, that realm, wherein there is > not earth, no water, no > fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere > of infinite > consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere > of thought nor lack of > thought. There is not this world or a world beyond, > or both together, or > sun or moon. This, I say, Monks, has no coming, no > going, no staying, no > passing away, and no arising; without support, > without duration and without > any basis. This, indeed, is the end of dukkha." (my > translation) > > The Mahayana Sutras do say that indeed from the > vantage point of "the > Buddha and great Bodhisattvas and Arhats" who have > realized Nirvana with or > without residue, Samsara in a sense has no "true > reality" for them. I > cannot over-emphasize these words "for them". Also, > what do I mean by "no > true reality"? I mean no more and no less than the > quote from the Udana > above. > > So this does not mean that Samsara for beings > with > avidya/avijja-ignorance is experienced in this way. > Samsara, as is > explained quite thoroughly in the Abhidharma, > consists of cittas, cetasikas > and rupas that arise and fall away in accordance > with the laws of cause and > effect continuously. Samsara for those with avidya > is not Nirvana. To deny > the laws of cause and effect, or proclaim that our > own vantage point is the > same as that of the Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and Arhats > is, unfortunately, > still a problem that exists in some groups that make > up the Buddhist > community here in the United States. > > The Mahayana Sutras, particularly the Avatamska > (Flower Adornment; > Chinese: Hua Yen) Sutra has a magnificent vision of > the Bodhisattva path. > It does not teach the denial of the law of karma and > vipaka or the > non-existence of Samsara. These ideas are gross > misinterpretations and > "innovations" by people who really need to do a lot > more study of the > traditional Mahayana Sutras, not to speak of more > inner cultivation and > practical application of the Dharma in their daily > lives. > > Therefore, although I'm a devoted student of > the Mahayana, study of the > Abhidharma from the Pali as expounded by Khun Sujin > is quite suitable and > beneficial- an important tool to the practical task > of seeing the true > nature of cittas, cetasikas, and rupas in our own > personal experience right > now. > > Sincerely in Dharma, Heng > Shun 301 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 11:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up Dear Sarah, Many thanks for your welcome. The messages I've seen from various members of the group are very interesting indeed, although I need to learn a bit more Pali so I can participate properly in the discussions. What "list" are you referring to? If it is a list of all the members and some information about each, I would appreciate it if you would tell me how to get a copy. Thank you. Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up > Dear Ven Heng Shun and Betty > > as Jonothan has mentioned, we've been away and belatedly as others have said > we're very glad you've found your way here. Mike, it's also great to read > your contributions. In fact I'm a little overwhelmed as I try to catch up in > the limited time I have available! Lots of great correspondence and some > very useful responses and reminders from Robert and Amara too. > > There are also a few new 'lurking' members...everyone is welcome..Just an > occasional short note to show your presence would be appreciated but not > compulsory! We hope you find the list as useful as we do and are just > delighted it functions so well in our absence. Actually we're all 'new' as > we only started the list a couple of days before this year...a millenium > gift to us all! > > Finally, please use subject headings and modify them as appropriate as it > helps everyone to track messages....we all forget sometimes and some of us > make other silly mistakes...that's fine too! > > Sarah > 302 From: Heng Shun Date: Sun Apr 16, 2000 8:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm Jonathan, Welcome back. I enjoyed reading your response. I think, however, you'd have to agree that in terms of rupa we are indeed talking about the same rupa held in common. The sound waves generated by my "causal" speech are the same sound waves that you hear as a result of your own karma, as well as "other supporting factors" (as both Amara and Robert pointed out). The cittas and cetasikas are not the same for each of us, but they are based on the same material phenomenon. (If Ivan has your picture, I can see if I recognize you when I see him- I have a fairly good memory). Amara, thanks for your detailed and heart-felt response to my statements. I do agree with most of what you say, with the exception of: ".... the state of Nibbana and the totally different realities of Samsara. They are direct opposite and the Buddha and all Airya Puggala realize this, though through different levels of panna" and the statement: "With no more causes, good or bad, to be born again, they would attain Parinibbana of absolute nothingness, the utmost peace,the cessation of Samsara for them." This is a place- the realm of the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas- where we must acknowledge a difference between the Theravada and Mahayana. The most important Mahayana Sutras, the Avatamsaka Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, both teach that the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas "never" forsake living beings who are undergoing duhkha in Samsara. From the Mahayana vantage point the quote from the Udana applies to the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas realization of Nirvana with residue here and now. Without avidya they experience Samsara only by means of the force of their vows of great compassion to help all living beings to be liberated from duhkha. This does not negate the vipaka they might experience as you mentioned. However, for them, Nirvana is the only true reality, yet they do not forsake living beings. Therefore, it is said that their experience of Nirvana and Samsara is mutually unobstructive and not different from each other. I cannot overemphasize that this is the realm unique to the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas (according to the Mahayana), who are without avidya. This does not apply to any other living beings in Samsara. I think the Pali Sutras explanation of the Arhat who is experiencing Nirvana with residue makes it quite clear that this state also is really impossible for us to conceive. I recall several times the Buddha said in the Pali Sutras that for the Arhat here and now, "To say that he exists does not apply. To say he does not exist does not apply. To say he both exists and does not exist does not apply. To say that he neither exists or does not exist does not apply." And the famous passage from the Sutta-nipata "When all dharmas are removed, then all ways of speaking about him are not possible." I have deep reverence and gratitude for the sacrifices made by our Buddha for us, as well as his incredible wisdom and skill in teaching, which you described so well. Our teacher often said that there is not a single place on the entire earth where the Buddha had not sacrificed his life for the sake of benefitting livings beings in his past lives while following the Bodhisattva path. I look forward to your translation of the Buddha's life. I can have kshanti in this regard. By the way, when will the Summary be published? Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 303 From: Mike Potter Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 5:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Robert, I concur with you that "we have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what sati is, what right concentration is." I, too, am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. This is why I am traveling to Fresno, California in two weeks to learn from Khun Sujin and others who will be there, and to continue this investigation by listening, considering and applying the teachings in a manner which is in line with my accumulations. But, as I understand it, the other path factors cannot be ignored while one attempts to master right view. So I endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to the best of my ability, so that they will be mutually supportive and in balance. I appreciate your comments. Mike 304 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 9:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Dear Mike, I think there may be some differences in our interpretation of a few terms. Earlier you wrote that "Any perception of "self" (even an observer) is not present - only the rising and falling of phenomena, including mindfulness itself, due to causes and conditions." Could you expand on what you mean by "the rising and falling of phenomena"? What, exactly, is being perceived? You wrote that: "the other > path factors cannot be ignored while one attempts to > master right view. So I > endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to the > best of my ability, so that they > will be mutually supportive and in balance." > The Netti-pakarana says “‘Giving right view first place’: when right view is admitted the noble eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because it is from right view that right intention is given being, from right intention that right speech is given being, from right action that right livelihood is given being, from right effort that mindfulness is given being, from right mindfulness that right concentration is given being, .." My main point would be that it is so easy to mistake miccha- samadhi(wrong concentration) for samma-samadhi(right concentration). Even within samma-samadhi there are many different types. The samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path is not the same as the samma-samadhi of sammattha. Robert 305 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 9:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' Dear K. Amara, Many thanks for your note. But, no need to worry what to call me. For the purposes of this discussion group, please just call me Betty since some confusion might arise from those unfamiliar with Thai titles if they are asked to address me as Mom. Betty 306 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 18, 2000 1:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up Dear Betty, It might help you to have a Pali-English glossary next to you when you read the messages. I believe Amara has one on her web site you could print out and i know Ivan produced a good one that is in the back of some copies of Buddhism in Daily Life. Just 2 or 3 pages. I'm sure one of them will direct you. It would be useful for other members not so familiar with the Pali too. But even then, it takes time and patience... As for the list I referred to, I meant here..all these messages we're all getting...I'm sorry for the confusing techno-talk...these discussion groups are often referred to as 'lists'...that's all. Just ask about anything that's confusing...any qus will be appreciated by everyone! Kashi, a big welcome too belatedly I'm sorry...keep up yr qus to Robert too!! Sarah >Dear Sarah, > Many thanks for your welcome. The messages I've seen from various >members of the group are very interesting indeed, although I need to learn >a >bit more Pali so I can participate properly in the discussions. What "list" >are you referring to? If it is a list of all the members and some >information about each, I would appreciate it if you would tell me how to >get a copy. Thank you. >Betty 307 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 18, 2000 4:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] rt understanding is the key! Dear Mike, Robert & all! I agree with Robert's comment and his quote from Netti-pakarana explains much better than I could that in the development of vipaasana and the noble eightfold path, right understanding is the key. The more understanding there is of different realities, the more rt understanding can and will develop. At first, of course, it will only be intellectual right understanding and there will be much doubt and wrong view in between, but slowly it will grow stronger and firmer. As it develops, the other factors of the eightfold path will develop too with no clinging to an idea of self who needs to 'practice' or 'balance' or control realities in anyway. The other kind of mental development is the development of samatha or calmness (at the highest levels of which we're talking about jhanas, but as Amara explained....not at this time!). Of course any moment of kusala or wholesomeness is to be encouraged and there certainly can be moments of samtha or calmness too. In this case the object of understanding is a concept, not a reality, but there still has to be right understanding (as Robert has pointed out). It is different from the right understanding discussed in the development of the eightfold path. It has to understand or know how the object of samatha can bring calm. For example, if we just concentrate on breath now in a quiet place and feel good, this is attachment with no understanding. If, however, busy as we maybe now, we consider for a moment how our life, our family, friends, possessions, all we hold dear to us, just depend on this one moment of breath, it can be a condition for a moment of wholesome calmness right now. And so with the other objects....hence, understanding and not a quiet spot is the key at this level. Many of Nina's writings, including 'Buddhism in Daily Life' explain in far more detail. Mike, I'm very happy to hear you'll be joining the discussions in Calif. I know you'll raise many of these points with Khun Sujin there and she will give you her explanations which are far clearer than anything we can express here. I really look forward to hearing your comments and any notes about the discussions you care to share either while you're away or on your return. I also hope someone records the discussions. Best regards, Sarah > >You wrote that: "the other > > path factors cannot be ignored while one attempts to > > master right view. So I > > endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to the > > best of my ability, so that they > > will be mutually supportive and in balance." > > > > The Netti-pakarana says “‘Giving right view first >place’: when right view is admitted the noble >eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because >it is from right view that right intention is given >being, from right intention that right speech is given >being, from right action that right livelihood is >given being, from right effort that mindfulness is >given being, from right mindfulness that right >concentration is given being, .." > >My main point would be that it is so easy to mistake >miccha- samadhi(wrong concentration) for >samma-samadhi(right concentration). >Even within samma-samadhi there are many different >types. The samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path is >not the same as the samma-samadhi of sammattha. > >Robert 308 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 3:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm >".... the state of Nibbana and the totally different realities of Samsara. >They are direct opposite and the Buddha and all Airya Puggala realize this, >though through different levels of panna" and the statement: "With no more >causes, good or bad, to be born again, they would attain Parinibbana of >absolute nothingness, the utmost peace,the cessation of Samsara for them." > > This is a place- the realm of the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas- >where >we must acknowledge a difference between the Theravada and Mahayana. The >most important Mahayana Sutras, the Avatamsaka Sutra and the Lotus Sutra, >both teach that the Buddhas and great Bodhisattvas "never" forsake living >beings who are undergoing duhkha in Samsara. From the Mahayana vantage >point the quote from the Udana applies to the Buddhas and great >Bodhisattvas >realization of Nirvana with residue here and now. > > Without avidya they experience Samsara only by means of the force of >their vows of great compassion to help all living beings to be liberated >from duhkha. This does not negate the vipaka they might experience as you >mentioned. However, for them, Nirvana is the only true reality, yet they >do >not forsake living beings. Therefore, it is said that their experience of >Nirvana and Samsara is mutually unobstructive and not different from each >other. > > I cannot overemphasize that this is the realm unique to the Buddhas >and >great Bodhisattvas (according to the Mahayana), who are without avidya. >This does not apply to any other living beings in Samsara. > > I think the Pali Sutras explanation of the Arhat who is experiencing >Nirvana with residue makes it quite clear that this state also is really >impossible for us to conceive. I recall several times the Buddha said in >the Pali Sutras that for the Arhat here and now, "To say that he exists >does not apply. To say he does not exist does not apply. To say he both >exists and does not exist does not apply. To say that he neither exists or >does not exist does not apply." And the famous passage from the >Sutta-nipata "When all dharmas are removed, then all ways of speaking >about >him are not possible." > > I have deep reverence and gratitude for the sacrifices made by our >Buddha for us, as well as his incredible wisdom and skill in teaching, >which >you described so well. Our teacher often said that there is not a single >place on the entire earth where the Buddha had not sacrificed his life for >the sake of benefitting livings beings in his past lives while following >the >Bodhisattva path. I look forward to your translation of the Buddha's life. >I can have kshanti in this regard. By the way, when will the Summary be >published? Venerable sir, First I have to make my usual appologies and present a corrigendum: in my last posting to you there was a sentence that said, 'Without any kilesa, all their akusala as well as kusala citta that are kamma no longer arise, and only kiriya citta do in any circumstances, in the vithi citta, which is where you accumulate further vipaka (the result of kamma).' I meant to say javana instead of vithi. Another is the part about the prediction to become the Buddha from the Buddha Dipankara, which was 4 asankaya and a hundred thousand kappa ago. As to the Buddha not forsaking us, as we all know, he almost decided against teaching the dhamma, but then founded the greatest religion on earth, left us such a comprhensive teaching I don't think anyone nowadays could read all of it in every intricate detail, although I have yet to ask Khun Sujin something she cannot answer on the subject. People who have been to Nalanda will tell you how huge the ruins of the university was. The Buddha not only endured personal hardship, slanders and all sorts of harmful intents, but wars, crazed animals and bickering humans. Being a bhikku in a religious community you must appreciate the problems of the organisation of the Sankha, even though at first mostly the arahanta would become ordained, the Buddha encouraged people to live their lives in manners natural to them, mostly as laypeople. Which is why the Buddhist comprise four parties, bhikku, bhikkuni, upasaka, upasika. Later as the religion grew, more and more people became ordained and some, including those whose nature was not so pure, causing endless problems that resulted in the 227 rules or vinaya to be established, where before the order was completely conscience governed. If he had lived longer preobably more people would have found new methods of slipping through the rules so that more and more would have been established. As it is, nowadays people tend to try to soften or bend the vinaya to blend in with modern times, to greater and greater detriments of the order, because fewer and fewer people have the nature to live in a way that was natural to the arahanta. When he attained parinibbhana, the Buddha left a glorious order that grew and grew, complete with the dhamma and the sankha, and also the Buddha if one reflects that he said, "Anyone who sees the dhamma is said to have seen the Tathagata" as opposed to, "For even those that had seen his person, that had heard the dhamma teachings from his lips, or even those who had held the rim of his clothing as they followed in his footsteps; if they did not know the dhamma or see the dhamma, then they had not seen him." The Dhamma is not for everyone- in the Buddha's time it was so, and even more so now, as we can all see everyday in our lives. But for those who seek it, his teaching is still available. Mostly it depends on the individual's accumulations. Before him there were sila, (precepts) and samatha (development of jhana) but no teachings about realities to develop panna to the level of enlightenment, and as the Bodhisatava he was unable to attain it for six years. After his attainment countless became arahanta, including deva and brahma who came to listen to him. And as long as there are people who study the dhamma, he remains with us- until we turn from his teachings. Someone asked me for a mantra to recite a few days ago and I was tempted to send him the one reciting the great qualities of the Buddha, but what he wanted was probably some secret sacret phrases they sell for huge amounts of money these days that was supposed to bring magical beneficience to the person in possession. The Buddha's miraculous beneficience was in fact through his showing us how to develop our own panna to attain nibbhana, cutting this endless samsara and millions upon millions of live ao accumulated kilesa that should keep us here forever in the grips of moments of lobha, dosa and ignorance, illnesses and deaths, that drag us back for more and ever more of the same. Without his teachings and the same ones from all Buddha, there is no way out, there never were. Anumodana in the kusala cetana of all those who study the dhamma, Amara 309 From: Heng Shun Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 3:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm Amara and Dharma Friends, I'm leaving to go on 3-day retreat in the forest further north from here (I live 120 miles north of San Francisco) with a group of young novices (Shramaneras). I'll be responding to your thoughts on the Buddha's realm when I return. Appreciate the shared wisdom and mutual understanding evinced from these discussions. Sincerely, Heng Shun 310 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 3:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 3 new chapters of the 'Summary' > Many thanks for your note. But, no need to worry what to call me. For >the purposes of this discussion group, please just call me Betty since >some >confusion might arise from those unfamiliar with Thai titles if they are >asked to address me as Mom. >Betty Dear Betty, Thank you for your kind and gentle humour, I really appreciate that! I also have an announcement you might find useful, we have added the address of the foundation as well as the phone number- 174/1 Soi Chareun Nakorn 78, Bukkalo, Bangkok 10600, Tel: (66 2) 468 0239 - to Newsletter 4, newsletter section. as you will see, the building will be open only mid-May, for details about the English discussion groups perhaps it is better to contact Elle and Ivan. Khun Sujin will be attending and you will see that she is one of the world's greatest teachers today, an inexhaustible source of knowledge, as well as a wonderful person. She leaves for the States tomorrow for dhamma discussions as well as a family visit afterwards and will be back for the opening of the building, after which our weekly discussions will start. But as Robert said, please do not restrict your discussions to those sessions, we look forward to your questions and comments here too! Amara 311 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] welcomes & catch-up >It might help you to have a Pali-English glossary next to you when you >read >the messages. I believe Amara has one on her web site you could print out >and i know Ivan produced a good one that is in the back of some copies of >Buddhism in Daily Life. Dear friends in the dhamma, I's sorry to say that we are still working on our glossary, which is based on Alan's in his website at We are still trying to add the Pali terms in the 'Summary' that is not there yet, but in the meantime it is more than adequate for our postings here {it was a great idea to get a glossary, Sarah), and you might try calling the foundation [Tel: (662) 468 0239 ] about the English books. And if you can't get through please tell me because I still have several copies left. Amara 312 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 17, 2000 4:49pm Subject: Bon Voyage! Elle and Ivan, I would like to wish you a very 'bon voyage' and anumodana for your arranging this great trip, I hope you benefit fully from it yourselves and also have a wonderful time. Please say hello to all our dhamma friends there, especially those who helped you organize it and express my anumodana to them too. And please send us a line now and then when you have a moment, I'm sure we all look forward to the accounts of the discussions, from as many persons and sessions as possible! See you in May, Amara 313 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Apr 19, 2000 1:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The Buddha's Realm Amara, your enthusism and detailed, helpful responses are an inspiration to me and I'm sure to the others reading too. Keep it up! Sarah >The Dhamma is not for everyone- in the Buddha's time it was so, and even >more so now, as we can all see everyday in our lives. But for those who >seek it, his teaching is still available. Mostly it depends on the >individual's accumulations. Before him there were sila, (precepts) and >samatha (development of jhana) but no teachings about realities to develop >panna to the level of enlightenment, and as the Bodhisatava he was unable >to >attain it for six years. After his attainment countless became arahanta, >including deva and brahma who came to listen to him. And as long as there >are people who study the dhamma, he remains with us- until we turn from his >teachings. > >Someone asked me for a mantra to recite a few days ago and I was tempted to >send him the one reciting the great qualities of the Buddha, but what he >wanted was probably some secret sacret phrases they sell for huge amounts >of >money these days that was supposed to bring magical beneficience to the >person in possession. The Buddha's miraculous beneficience was in fact >through his showing us how to develop our own panna to attain nibbhana, >cutting this endless samsara and millions upon millions of live ao >accumulated kilesa that should keep us here forever in the grips of moments >of lobha, dosa and ignorance, illnesses and deaths, that drag us back for >more and ever more of the same. Without his teachings and the same ones >from all Buddha, there is no way out, there never were. > >Anumodana in the kusala cetana of all those who study the dhamma, >Amara >______________________________________________________ 314 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would >like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: ..................... >The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, >apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. > > Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation >with >rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. > > Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. > > Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma >or >the 4 arupajhana-kusala. > >Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for >vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or the >distinct kamma. >........... Amara, I was reading over your earlier response which was very detailed and fully of 'meaty' abhidhamma. I have not heard about these 3 kinds of sankhara before and am a little stumped. For example, it says punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala kamma in relation with rupa etc. what does this mean? What about dana for example would this qualify? It seems then we're talking about a story rather than realities...the intention to give at that moment doesn't seem to be about rupa...no, I'm confused. Perhaps you can elaborate (or maybe Robert) w/ simple examples.... Is there further elaboration elsewhere? thanks, Sarah 315 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Apr 20, 2000 2:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] abhidhamma in daily life Robert, I'm still catching up on messsages from our hol...the best part of coming back is checking them! Just read all your very helpful comments below. Keep up your good writing! Sarah ........ ........ > By some standards I now live a busy life- work, >family. At other times I am by myself- In December I >was in India for 2 weeks visiting the holy places. Is >there a difference? Is it different when I teach a >class of students or when I take time to walk in the >hills near the city? The situations, the problems, the >stories of life, are the shadows of realities.As >insight develops we may begin to find the stories of >life less interesting. We begin to see below the >surface. Past or future mistakes or achievements, no >matter big or small, are just icing - bitter or sweet. >The shadows, the concepts, are still there but the >real interest lies with dhammas, with studying the >momentary realities that are arising at the 6 doors. >It becomes so natural – one does not have to try so >much to have it. No minding about “situation” about >being in a special place, doing special things, >learning special techniques. Sometimes, it is true, we >go off the path, we neglect the study of dhammas or do >regrettable things. How could it be otherwise, we have >for uncountable aeons accumulated desire, aversion, >and ignorance- they are not quickly overcome. > >Do we have the courage not to overestimate our >abilities? Can we, instead of looking at a moment of >sati as an achievement, see it as just another dhamma, >a conditioned phenomena, not ours? Can we look at >moments of calm as merely namas- no more important >than any other moment? Can we, instead of hiding our >defilements bring them out in the open?-they can teach >us who we really are. > >You wrote that you have right view now – but there are >levels of right view, levels of wrong view. We should >become more modest in our assessment of progress. >Everything is different from how we thought it would >be, how we thought it was. The whole world is >completely different, the practice, this moment, >everything. It is like peeling a large onion, nothing >is left, no core. Our old way of thinking is gradually >overturned. > >In the beginning it seems like there is “us” making >effort. It seems that we must try so hard to >understand. Quiet places seem beneficial – if we are >in a center with a teacher we hear the Dhamma every >day, we are in a different environment from our normal >life. The people around us are thinking only of Dhamma >. It seems that this helps. If we concentrate we have >calmness or unusual experiences, Because of the >atmosphere and encouragement it seems that our “mind” >turns towards kusala. >Later, if panna develops, we see that there is no self >who can make effort, who can try, who has >concentration. No “mind” to make calm. We see that >every moment is just like any other moment. There are >feeling, perception, mental formations, and material >phenomena. The feelings that are so pleasant are just >feelings, the ones that are so bad are just feelings. >The perception of “pure clarity” is just perception, >the perception of this moment, just perception. The >most refined sensations in the body are just >sensations in the body. The most rough sensations just >sensations. Whatever “situation” there are only namas >and rupas . Direct understanding can come in like a >flash of lightning-even when one is tired, worried, >distracted. Depending on accumulations one may still >value time alone to consider Dhamma. Some people work >less, live simple lives. Others naturally think of >Dhamma even when they are busy. Others experience >realities directly at any time. There is no rule about >this: certainly insight can come while one is sitting >quietly: but not if wrong view is present. >We cannot suddenly rush to clear insight. Even the >level of intellectual understanding of Dhamma is not >so straightforward. > > The Kindred sayings XlV (Kindred sayings on the Way >Chapter III Perversion the unworthy 9b): “Herein, >monks a certain one has wrong view , and the rest.. >wrong concentration; but he also has wrong knowledge >and wrong liberation.” One like this thinks he is >enlightened . This may refer to ways outside the >sasana but we should know that there can be wrong >paths even within the Buddhist tradition: “this path >is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, >peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, >subtle, to be experienced by the wise”: Middle length >sayings Sutta 95 Canki. > > We have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect >before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what >sati is, what right concentration is. I am still very >much at the investigating stage, the beginning of >right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I >still need to hear more, this life and future lives. > >Robert 316 From: amara chay Date: Wed Apr 19, 2000 1:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada > >And when you say, ' conditioned origination (pratitya samutpada), I would > >like to refer to a passage in the 'Summary...' Citta chapter7: > >..................... > >The three sankhara resulting from avijja are: punnabhisankhara, > >apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara. > > > > Punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala-kamma in relation > >with > >rupa, or kamavacara-kusala-kamma and rupavacara-kusala-kamma. > > > > Apunnabhisankhara is the intention to do akusala-kamma. > > > > Anenjabhisankhara is the intention that is arupavacara-kusala-kamma > >or > >the 4 arupajhana-kusala. > > > >Punnabhisankhara, apunnabhisankhara and anenjabhisankhara are paccaya for > >vinnana to arise or patisandhi in diverse bhumi according to causes or >the > >distinct kamma. > >........... > > >Amara, I was reading over your earlier response which was very detailed and >fully of 'meaty' abhidhamma. I have not heard about these 3 kinds of >sankhara before and am a little stumped. For example, it says >punnabhisankhara is the intention to do kusala kamma in relation with rupa >etc. what does this mean? What about dana for example would this qualify? >It >seems then we're talking about a story rather than realities...the >intention >to give at that moment doesn't seem to be about rupa...no, I'm confused. >Perhaps you can elaborate (or maybe Robert) w/ simple examples.... Is there >further elaboration elsewhere? Sarah, I think what KS. intended here is not the 'story' but the cetana cetasika that perform the specific function, see Part V, 'Summary' of which this is an excerpt: 4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of cetana that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya because it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is not in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. End quote. If you are still not clear on this we can ask her at the discussion group in May! Amara 317 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Apr 21, 2000 0:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Amara, thanks for yr reply and extra interesting comments. However, I'm none the wiser about what is meant by punnabhisankhara (or cetana) being 'intention to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? As you say, we can take it up w/ K.S. later...It's not important! This list is really encouraging my much neglected abhidhamma study...It's important to always keep in mind the purpose, I find, o'wise it can become another intellectual exercise! Sarah > >Sarah, >I think what KS. intended here is not the 'story' but the cetana cetasika >that perform the specific function, see Part V, 'Summary' of which this is >an excerpt: >4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to >perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that >arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a >kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a >sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of cetana >that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other >vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The >cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with >kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a >sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with >akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after >resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or >kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya >because >it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is >not >in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs >the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause >vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the >kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the >akusala-cetana >or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. >End quote. > >If you are still not clear on this we can ask her at the discussion group >in May! > >Amara > 318 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 20, 2000 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >However, I'm none the >wiser about what is meant by punnabhisankhara (or cetana) being 'intention >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? As you say, we can >take it up w/ K.S. later...It's not important! Sarah, I'd like another try at explaining what it is about: >'intention >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? Because there are three abhisankhara; one has to do with the akusala, namely apunnabhisankhara: there is no story, nor person who soes the kamma, but the cetana-cetasika which endeavors, intends to do things- here bad things, akusala-kamma. The second abhisankhara is in fact the first on the list, the punnabhisankhara, the intention to do something kusala, in other words the kusala cetana, in the kamavacara worlds, rupavacara worlds, as opposed to the anenjabhisankhara, which has to do with the arupavacara bhumi, of the arupa brahma. In other words, it is the difference between the kamavacara, rupavacara kusala-citta and those of the jhana that brings about the kind of kusala citta that causes rebirth in the arupa brahma worlds, which are also kusala-citta. But these cetana cetasika are also only realities that are not the selves, although they are powerful enough to produce life itself, of which they are a part, even now as we study the dhamma, the cetana cetasika is accumulating kusala of the rupavacara world in which we live, whether we wanted it to or not, or whether we are conscious of it or not! Amara >I think what KS. intended here is not the 'story' but the cetana cetasika > >that perform the specific function , see Part V, 'Summary' of which this is > >an excerpt: > >4. Cetana-cetasika is the cetasika that intends, attends, endeavors to > >perform the function according to its kind and the sampayutta-dhamma that > >arise concurrently at that instant. The cetana-cetasika is therefore a > >kamma-paccaya. The cetana-cetasika that arises with vipaka-citta is a > >sahajati-kamma (paccaya) vipaka because it performs the function of >cetana > >that is vipaka simultaneously with the vipaka-citta and other > >vipaka-cetasika that arise concurrently and then fall away. The > >cetana-cetasika, which is kiriya and arises to do its duty together with > >kiriya-citta and other kiriya-cetasika and then falls away, is also a > >sahajati-kamma-paccaya. But the akusala-cetana that arises with > >akusala-citta and kusala-cetana that arises with kusala-citta, after > >resulting in any akusala-kamma-patha or > >kusala-kamma-patha and falling away, is a nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya > >because > >it will cause vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise in the future, which is > >not > >in the same instant when the akusala-cetana or the kusala-cetana performs > >the kamma. Since it brings results in a different moment, or cause > >vipaka-citta and cetasika to arise after the causal akusala-cetana or the > >kusala-cetana had fallen away, the cetana-kamma, which is the > >akusala-cetana > >or the kusala-cetana, are therefore nanakkhanika-kamma-paccaya. > >End quote. 319 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 22, 2000 0:57am Subject: free internet gizmos dear group, I have been using a new type of search machine and find it fanatastic. So as a material sort of dana i though i would pass the tip on. it is called copernicus 2000 and can be downloaded as free software from this site http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000PBB --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike, Robert & all! > > I agree with Robert's comment and his quote from > Netti-pakarana explains > much better than I could that in the development of > vipaasana and the noble > eightfold path, right understanding is the key. The > more understanding there > is of different realities, the more rt understanding > can and will develop. > At first, of course, it will only be intellectual > right understanding and > there will be much doubt and wrong view in between, > but slowly it will grow > stronger and firmer. As it develops, the other > factors of the eightfold path > will develop too with no clinging to an idea of self > who needs to 'practice' > or 'balance' or control realities in anyway. > > The other kind of mental development is the > development of samatha or > calmness (at the highest levels of which we're > talking about jhanas, but as > Amara explained....not at this time!). Of course any > moment of kusala or > wholesomeness is to be encouraged and there > certainly can be moments of > samtha or calmness too. In this case the object of > understanding is a > concept, not a reality, but there still has to be > right understanding (as > Robert has pointed out). It is different from the > right understanding > discussed in the development of the eightfold path. > It has to understand or > know how the object of samatha can bring calm. For > example, if we just > concentrate on breath now in a quiet place and feel > good, this is attachment > with no understanding. If, however, busy as we maybe > now, we consider for a > moment how our life, our family, friends, > possessions, all we hold dear to > us, just depend on this one moment of breath, it can > be a condition for a > moment of wholesome calmness right now. And so with > the other > objects....hence, understanding and not a quiet spot > is the key at this > level. > > Many of Nina's writings, including 'Buddhism in > Daily Life' explain in far > more detail. > > Mike, I'm very happy to hear you'll be joining the > discussions in Calif. I > know you'll raise many of these points with Khun > Sujin there and she will > give you her explanations which are far clearer than > anything we can express > here. I really look forward to hearing your comments > and any notes about the > discussions you care to share either while you're > away or on your return. > > I also hope someone records the discussions. > > Best regards, Sarah > > > >You wrote that: "the other > > > path factors cannot be ignored while one > attempts to > > > master right view. So I > > > endeavor to practice all of the path factors, to > the > > > best of my ability, so that they > > > will be mutually supportive and in balance." > > > > > > > The Netti-pakarana says “‘Giving right view > first > >place’: when right view is admitted the noble > >eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? > Because > >it is from right view that right intention is given > >being, from right intention that right speech is > given > >being, from right action that right livelihood is > >given being, from right effort that mindfulness is > >given being, from right mindfulness that right > >concentration is given being, .." > > > >My main point would be that it is so easy to > mistake > >miccha- samadhi(wrong concentration) for > >samma-samadhi(right concentration). > >Even within samma-samadhi there are many different > >types. The samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path > is > >not the same as the samma-samadhi of sammattha. > > > >Robert > > 321 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 0:37am Subject: trip to the States Dear Everyone, Just a short note to let you know that while travelling in the States, between April 27 and May 28, I will be using a hotmail account, should you wish to send me a message. The address will be: beyugala@hotmail.com Looking forward, Fondly, Betty 322 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 0:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] trip to the States Dear Betty, Bon voyage and have a wonderful time! If you are anywhere near San Francisco, please look up Khun Sujin et al, you can check her itinerary on the page 'newsletter 1', click on the word click 'here', at the DSDG . At the end of the page there are also some contact numbers and e-mail addresses (for rapidity I would suggest Khun O) as well as the hotel addresses. A few of the members of the discussion group will also be there, including the Ven. Heng Shun and some of his students. Everyone will be so happy if you could join in some of the sessions! Otherwise we hope to see you very soon via e-mail, and once again, Bon voyage, Amara 323 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 25, 2000 5:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada Amara, Many thanks. It sounds like punnabhidsnkhara (cetana) quote 'to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa' end quote, actually just means to do kusala -kamma in planes in which rupa arises i.e. here in kamavacara planes and in rupavacara planes...Is that right? Sounds like a translation problem! Sarah > > >However, I'm none the > >wiser about what is meant by punnabhisankhara (or cetana) being >'intention > >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? As you say, we >can > >take it up w/ K.S. later...It's not important! > >Sarah, >I'd like another try at explaining what it is about: > > >'intention > >to do kusala-kamma in relation with rupa...'. Why rupa? > >Because there are three abhisankhara; one has to do with the akusala, >namely >apunnabhisankhara: there is no story, nor person who soes the kamma, but >the >cetana-cetasika which endeavors, intends to do things- here bad things, >akusala-kamma. > >The second abhisankhara is in fact the first on the list, the >punnabhisankhara, the intention to do something kusala, in other words the >kusala cetana, in the kamavacara worlds, rupavacara worlds, as opposed to >the anenjabhisankhara, which has to do with the arupavacara bhumi, of the >arupa brahma. In other words, it is the difference between the kamavacara, >rupavacara kusala-citta and those of the jhana that brings about the kind >of >kusala citta that causes rebirth in the arupa brahma worlds, which are also >kusala-citta. But these cetana cetasika are also only realities that are >not the selves, although they are powerful enough to produce life itself, >of >which they are a part, even now as we study the dhamma, the cetana cetasika >is accumulating kusala of the rupavacara world in which we live, whether we >wanted it to or not, or whether we are conscious of it or not! > >Amara 324 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Apr 25, 2000 5:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A growing list & publishing! Dear friends, I had a long chat w/ Alan yesterday and we were discussing the growing numbers of messages. My experience from other lists (much bigger than this one) have taught me that it's very helpful to either: a) keep a separate account just for this dhamma list so that it is kept separate from other personal or business messages and so one can decide when one is in the 'mood' for checking dhamma list messages and responding. I keep a separate hotmail a/c for this one so I can check it anywhere in the world and from any internet cafe or computer.(The same thing can be achieved by using a filter on yr regular email a/c) b) receive the messages in digest frorm on the usual a/c. Jonothan does it this way in his office. It just means the day's supply of dhamma list messages come in one 'chunk' rather than mixed up w/ others. c) messages can be read on the e groups archives anytime, so it doesn't matter if they are deleted from your a/c. This reminds me, people should feel free to comment on past messages even tho' s.o. else may have given a comprehensive response already! Alan, would you summarise here books waiting to be printed by you (and just printed) and in the case of the former, what kind of funds are needed for the job inc. time of the publisher! I think you mentioned 'Conditions' should be next but needs funds and time. We'd like to make some contribution. i know Robert is also helping. It would also be helpful if from time to time you'd refer people to yr list w/ details of books published (mostly by Nina) and details of where they are available. Robert, Alan's having lost of computer problems at the moment...if he's not able to respond, maybe you can help with the last paragraph! Thanks, Sarah 325 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 2:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Chinese Translation & Pratitya Samutpada >It sounds like punnabhidsnkhara (cetana) quote 'to do kusala-kamma in > >relation with rupa' end quote, actually just means to do kusala >-kamma >in planes in which rupa arises i.e. here in kamavacara planes >and in >rupavacara planes...Is that right? Sounds like a translation >problem! Sarah, Almost, but not quite that, since the anenjabhisankhara can also be done in the kama- and rupa- vacara planes, this is how people accumulate conditions to become the arupa-brahma, for example, in their future lives. Considering how difficult it is, it is almost a futile effort because the end result is not at all appropriate for the study of dhamma... a waste of billions upon billions of years as the being that is all mind and no rupa with which to hear or see to study anything at all. Maybe this is the reason for such a classification: apunna- is not conducive to the study of realities, punna- is perfect, and ananja- is too much of what Weber might call 'abnegation'! Amara 326 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 10:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] trip to the States Dear Amara, Many thanks for all your help. I will be in the San Francisco area from May 21-28 and will contact Khun O and Khun Jack beforehand so that I might be able to meet them while there. Regards, Betty Y. 327 From: amara chay Date: Mon Apr 24, 2000 4:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] trip to the States Dear Betty, I'm sorry to hear that you will not be able to join in the dhamma discussions with Khun Sujin, as she will have left California by May 2nd for a family visit in another state. But on May 17 she will have returned to Bangkok and the next Saturday our English sessions will begin, during which we look forward to questions and comments from you and our friends in the dhamma, Bon voyage once again, Amara 328 From: Heng Shun Date: Thu Apr 27, 2000 5:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Sujin in Fremont, Calif Dear Friends in the Dharma, I just wanted to mention a little bit of news about our experience in meeting and participating in the discussions with Ajahn Sujin at Wat Buudhanasorn in Fremont (close to San Francisco & closer to San Jose). Five young novice monks (Shramaneras) accompanied me- they are 16 to 18 years of age (all have been novices for six years) and one 22 year old. We participated in four discussion periods on three days. First, I must point out that Elle was very diligent in tape-recording everything so that people will be able to utilize these discussions for study in the future. I also must mention that the Bhikshus at the temple were very hospitable, and provided splendid accomodations for us when we had our meals. We felt very much at home, as all the people in the temple were quite friendly and helpful. Also, the temple is quite beautiful- just like the Wats in Thailand. It took a couple of sessions for the Shramaneras to get used to the Abhidharma Pali terminology- they are somewhat familiar with the Chinese terms, so I would sometimes interject to tell them the Chinese. Ajahn Sujin had Jack assist in explaining some of the most basic ideas, so that she could utilize her energy and time for more complicated ideas, or expand, which she often did, on the basics. Jack did a very good job in assisting her. Her English is much, much better than it was in 1973 and 1974. I talked to her outside the formal discussion once, with just a couple of participants, and explained what our beliefs as Mahayana Buddhists were, and on the last day I asked some questions concerning our beliefs. This is a brief summary of those exchanges. I mentioned that we have the wish and vow to remain in Samsara for millions and millions of lifetimes to cultivate the Bodhisattva Path. She asked why we would want to continuously experience the conditioned arising and falling away of citta, cetasikas, and rupa for such a long period of time. Wouldn't it be better to develop prajna/panna now? She also asked if we believe if everyone in Samsara can become enlightened, since I mentioned that we want to remain in Samsara until all beings are enlightened. I said that according to our Sutras in the Chinese Buddhist Canon, it really does not clearly state that all beings will definitely become enlightened, but that doesn't matter to us, because we still have that wish. I think the most interesting exhange was on the last day. I asked Ajahn Sujin to explain the Bodhisattva Path in terms of the Pali Abhidharma. She said it really does not matter whether we refer to the terms puthujjana, Arahant, or Bodhisattva, because we still need to see the characteristics of nama and rupa as they arise and fall away in the present moment. I thought that was a very good answer and an approach that avoids unnecessary conflicts between the traditions. She also told me after this session, that she was suprised to learn of the great similarities between the Mahayana and Theravada, as she had never really looked too deeply into the Mahayana (particularly our tradition based on the Chinese Buddhist Canon). I think Jack had a little trouble comprehending that even though we are quite aware (painfully aware) that we are merely common worldlings/ puthujjanas (just beginners), yet we have the wish or vow to aspire to the Bodhisattva Path, which indeed does take, according to the Chinese Buddhist Canon, more than three asankheya mahakalpas. There were many other sincere students both English-speaking Thais and Caucasian (and John a very inquisitive African-American) who participated in the discussions, and asked some very interesting questions. Thanks to Elle you will have the opportunity to listen to these discussions on tape. The young Shramaneras and myself learned quite a lot. The Shramaneras were also very moved by the way the Thai lay followers show such respect to the Sangha. All in all it was a very fruitful experience for us all. Sincerely, in Dharma, Heng Shun 329 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Apr 27, 2000 1:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Sujin in Fremont, Calif Dear Heng Shun, Thank you very much for your summary of your talks and experiences . I am very happy that you were well received and I am sure your presence (and the samaneras ) was of great benefit to everyone. Once again I want to say how much I admire your interest in learning more about Dhamma, even outside your tradition. But then, as you indicate, the more we study nama and rupa the more we see there is no tradition. There is only what is. I feel that the correspondence with you on this discussion group has already been very useful to me (and others) and I am looking forward to more in the future. Robert --- Heng Shun wrote: > Dear Friends in the Dharma, > > I just wanted to mention a little bit of news > about our experience in > meeting and participating in the discussions with > Ajahn Sujin at Wat > Buudhanasorn in Fremont (close to San Francisco & > closer to San Jose). Five > young novice monks (Shramaneras) accompanied me- > they are 16 to 18 years of > age (all have been novices for six years) and one 22 > year old. We > participated in four discussion periods on three > days. First, I must point > out that Elle was very diligent in tape-recording > everything so that people > will be able to utilize these discussions for study > in the future. I also > must mention that the Bhikshus at the temple were > very hospitable, and > provided splendid accomodations for us when we had > our meals. We felt very > much at home, as all the people in the temple were > quite friendly and > helpful. Also, the temple is quite beautiful- just > like the Wats in > Thailand. It took a couple of sessions for the > Shramaneras to get used to > the Abhidharma Pali terminology- they are somewhat > familiar with the Chinese > terms, so I would sometimes interject to tell them > the Chinese. > > Ajahn Sujin had Jack assist in explaining some > of the most basic ideas, > so that she could utilize her energy and time for > more complicated ideas, or > expand, which she often did, on the basics. Jack did > a very good job in > assisting her. Her English is much, much better than > it was in 1973 and > 1974. I talked to her outside the formal discussion > once, with just a couple > of participants, and explained what our beliefs as > Mahayana Buddhists were, > and on the last day I asked some questions > concerning our beliefs. This is > a brief summary of those exchanges. > > I mentioned that we have the wish and vow to > remain in Samsara for > millions and millions of lifetimes to cultivate the > Bodhisattva Path. She > asked why we would want to continuously experience > the conditioned arising > and falling away of citta, cetasikas, and rupa for > such a long period of > time. Wouldn't it be better to develop prajna/panna > now? She also asked if > we believe if everyone in Samsara can become > enlightened, since I mentioned > that we want to remain in Samsara until all beings > are enlightened. I said > that according to our Sutras in the Chinese Buddhist > Canon, it really does > not clearly state that all beings will definitely > become enlightened, but > that doesn't matter to us, because we still have > that wish. > > I think the most interesting exhange was on > the last day. I asked > Ajahn Sujin to explain the Bodhisattva Path in terms > of the Pali Abhidharma. > She said it really does not matter whether we > refer to the terms > puthujjana, Arahant, or Bodhisattva, because we > still need to see the > characteristics of nama and rupa as they arise and > fall away in the present > moment. I thought that was a very good answer and > an approach that avoids > unnecessary conflicts between the traditions. She > also told me after this > session, that she was suprised to learn of the great > similarities between > the Mahayana and Theravada, as she had never really > looked too deeply into > the Mahayana (particularly our tradition based on > the Chinese Buddhist > Canon). > > I think Jack had a little trouble comprehending > that even though we are > quite aware (painfully aware) that we are merely > common worldlings/ > puthujjanas (just beginners), yet we have the wish > or vow to aspire to the > Bodhisattva Path, which indeed does take, according > to the Chinese Buddhist > Canon, more than three asankheya mahakalpas. > > There were many other sincere students both > English-speaking Thais and > Caucasian (and John a very inquisitive > African-American) who participated in > the discussions, and asked some very interesting > questions. Thanks to Elle > you will have the opportunity to listen to these > discussions on tape. The > young Shramaneras and myself learned quite a lot. > The Shramaneras were also > very moved by the way the Thai lay followers show > such respect to the > Sangha. All in all it was a very fruitful > experience for us all. > > Sincerely, in Dharma, > Heng Shun 330 From: amara chay Date: Thu Apr 27, 2000 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Sujin in Fremont, Calif Venerable sir, I'm very happy to hear that it all went so well, and especially that you had some useful discussions. I am also very impressed by your wishing to remain in samsara in order that all beings be enlightened before your leaving it. I can only hope there is any possibility there since the number of lives in the universe is said to be incalculably infinite, in fact it is one of the 'imponderables' (acinteyas), to me it doesn't seem possible to wait for all the ants and the planktons in this world alone to reach the level of wisdom necessary. However, your kusala cetana to enlighten people is extremely laudable, and brings us to the ultimate common goal: in order to teach people, you would want to learn as much as you can of what the Buddha taught and reach enlightenment, and all Buddhists students desire the same knowledge, whether they would want to pass it on or not. I hope you can acquire all the wisdom you need to teach everyone, and if we were to meet in some future life, you could teach the dhamma we had heard before which would be new to us then, or be a good reminder of what we already knew. In the meantime we can help one another study and store the teachings to the best of our abilities, and remain kalyana mitta in our quest for the truth, Your friend in the dhamma, Amara 331 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 3, 2000 9:27am Subject: Book fund Dear Group, Last week Sarah mentioned about helping to publish books. I have had a longstanding wish to do more in this regard. I would like to start a fund with this in aim. Possible uses for the funds (please comment): 1. Publish some of Ninas books for free distribution in Sri Lanka (probably print in either Thailand or Sri Lanka). If we raise enough money I may be able to contact a printer in Sri lanka and visit and arrange it all. 2. Sponsor Zolag to publish more books. To start the fund rolling I pledge $US500 as an initial contribution. Robert 332 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 6, 2000 10:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund Robert, Anumodana for your dana. Sarah and I had also been talking about sponsoring some publishing. Our idea was to do this through Zolag, as Alan Weller has done so much to get Nina's works edited to a professional standard and onto the shelves of bookshops worldwide, mostly at his own expense. He continues to work on new volumes for publication (eg. Conditions). We also pledge USD500. Jonothan >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund >Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:27:39 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Group, >Last week Sarah mentioned about helping to publish >books. >I have had a longstanding wish to do more in this >regard. >I would like to start a fund with this in aim. >Possible uses for the funds (please comment): >1. Publish some of Ninas books for free distribution >in Sri Lanka (probably print in either Thailand or Sri >Lanka). If we raise enough money I may be able to >contact a printer in Sri lanka and visit and arrange >it all. >2. Sponsor Zolag to publish more books. > >To start the fund rolling I pledge $US500 as an >initial contribution. >Robert 333 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat May 6, 2000 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund dear Jonathan , And anumodana to you.! Let's send it to Zolag. Dear Alan, if you are reading this could you tell us what you want us to do with the money? So far US$1000 . I am very happy that conditions is being printed. One book I would love to see published is A survey of paramathha dhammmas by khun Sujin that I think Nina has recently completed or is near to completing. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Robert, > Anumodana for your dana. Sarah and I had also been > talking about sponsoring > some publishing. Our idea was to do this through > Zolag, as Alan Weller has > done so much to get Nina's works edited to a > professional standard and onto > the shelves of bookshops worldwide, mostly at his > own expense. He continues > to work on new volumes for publication (eg. > Conditions). > We also pledge USD500. > Jonothan > 334 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat May 6, 2000 10:39am Subject: Alan driver I am writing a brief biography on Alan driver to go along with some writings of his for the web. can anyone give me details of his life - the more the better! Robet 335 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon May 8, 2000 4:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Alan driver Lester, maybe you, Myrana & Bron can help out a little here, esp. w/regard to earlier part of his life. Robert, you need to prod Ivan & Jonothan to supply the later part. Actually jonothan gave very nice 'potted biography' at his funeral..I wonder if I still have the tape...will look, but it wasn't planned or scripted, so I think you still need to get lester, Ivan & J. working! Ivan always remembers details v.well! Sarah >I am writing a brief biography on Alan driver to go >along with some writings of his for the web. can >anyone give me details of his life - the more the >better! > >Robet > 336 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon May 8, 2000 4:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Reality! Dear Friends, a couple of days ago we had lunch w/ a friend of ours who joined discussions when K. Sujin was in Hong Kong and who has been a lurking member of this list for sometime. His qu. for the discussion group is this: Recently it seems that if he wants something, it doesn't happen, but if he doesn't want something, it happens! Does this have any significance? (this was mostly in connection with work or career) I'm sure he would appreciate a wide range of responses from us all! Sarah 337 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun May 7, 2000 9:04pm Subject: Dead friend Dear group, A professor (British) at my university died suddenly and I attended his funeral yesterday. A large man with a Prince Charles accent- I always smiled when I saw him around campus - he is what I imagine an Oxford Don to be. He was a lovely man - an accomplished writer, popular teacher but self-deprecating and full of subtle humour. He was on the commitee that hired me and we have been good friends ever since. What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? It always makes me reflect on Dhamma. He was highly successful and helped many people in a worldly sense and yet his future is completely uncertain. I never discussed Buddhism with him - except that he knew I was Buddhist- I was somewhat in awe of his intellect and felt uncomfortable bringing it up. Yet now I think I should have: even when people do not like to hear Dhamma it sometimes conditions understanding in the future. It is a seed that must be planted for future growth. The same with Buddhists who have a different interpretation of the Dhamma - especially those who think they can control things. It is sometimes tiring to talk with them but by doing so it plants seeds(mainly doubt) that may blossom even in future lives. Robert 338 From: amara chay Date: Mon May 8, 2000 1:18am Subject: temporarily out Dear friends in the dhamma, It seems that I am down with the 'love bug' that destroyed all my picture and sound files, and until my machine is completely cured I will be doing nothing on the web, especially in the DhammaStudy.com, to avoid contaminating anything else. Mail.com says that this e-mail program prevents anyone from transmitting or receiving the virus so I am risking it just this once. If you would like to contact me it would be better to use this address [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=100232113180158135092098186064129241078152] for the moment. 'See' you soon, Amara 339 From: shinlin Date: Tue May 9, 2000 10:29am Subject: Fw: Hello ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Tippayachan To: shinlin ; fongchan nanta ; Rinriver@aol.com Cc: tatarae@earthlink.net Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Hello Dear K. Shin and K. Preeya, It has been a great pleasured meeting everyone in the Dhamma group from Thailand. We enjoyed spending time learning Dhamma and getting to know each and everyone of you very well. IN Lake Tahoe, we lived and eat together like brothers and sisters in the same house. In the morning when we got up we enjoyed seeing how each other look like with their hair stick up and later everyone look beautiful again. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and support us, special thanks to K. Peeya, K. Elle and K. Porntipa for their tireless effort for recording and making tapes for all of us. We look forward to do this again soon. With Metta, Jack and US Dhamma group shinlin wrote: Dear Pi Jack and Pi Oie and everyone in the US, Hello !! I am writing this mail in the name of Pi Yid (K. Preeya). Actually she is right next to me now. She would to take opportunity to thank you all for the warmest and hospitality you all have given when the Thai Dhamma group went to America.Beside the wonderful Dhamma Talk and the food in US, she would not forget to send the questions and Pathana 100 question to you all. K. Rathana will be back from Europe this week. Once she is back, Pi Yid and K.Rathana will prepare all the necessary information for your studies. Last but not least, she would like to ask Pi Jack to take good care of Archan Santi. Pls kindly advise Archan Santi to wear warmer cloths and wear a hat so to prevent the cold in Bay Area. Pls kindly pass the message to Archan Santi, that Pi Yid has called his mother. She is well. Pls do not have to be too worried. If he need to send any information, pls send email to me at shinlin@zebra.co.th and I will pass the message on to his mother. As for me, I would like to send my regards and anumotana to you all for your continuous drive in studying Buddism which is the greatest thing that doesn't come easy to us all. It is a pity that Pi Kwan and I could not be able to join you all this time. Hopefully in the next coming trip to US again, the opportunity will be greater than. Fortunately, both Pi Kwan and I will be seeing you all again, if you all come for the Dhamma trip to Combodia in Decemeber 2000. Anumotana and with metta,Shin Lincc Pi Yid Attachment 10k (image/gif) Formal Announcement Bkgrd.gif 340 From: Alan Weller Date: Tue May 9, 2000 5:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book fund > dear Jonathan , > And anumodana to you.! Let's send it to Zolag. > > Dear Alan, > if you are reading this could you tell us what you > want us to do with the money? So far US$1000 . > I am very happy that conditions is being printed. One > book I would love to see published is A survey of > paramathha dhammmas by khun Sujin that I think Nina > has recently completed or is near to completing. > > Dear Robert, Many thanks for the offer of money, but I wish to suspend producing more books due to lack of time. Also it is difficult for me to take time off work as I could lose my regular freelance clients. I hope to see Sarah in England next month and we can discuss the posibilities in more detail. Best wishes, Alan 341 From: Alan Weller Date: Tue May 9, 2000 6:17pm Subject: noisy place for insight Dear all, I have in the past and the present found the noisy place to be conducive to understanding. Firstly the noisiest place I've ever been to is Bangkok and its here that I've been able to hear Khun Sujin expounding Dhamma. Secondly the Dhamma tapes that I listen to in England have various noises on them such as dogs and chickens and sometimes remind me of dhamma when I hear these in my Daily Life. Therefore it would seem that the condition for insight would be the sanna (memory) of the Right Path which could arise in the noisy or quiet place and in the city or country. We have just published khun Sujins book "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". This has been sponsored by Robert kirkpatrick and details can be found on our web site . There is also an online version of the book on the site. Best wishes, Alan 342 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 11, 2000 6:09pm Subject: Free book for discussion group Alan has just sent me some copies of "Taking Refuge in Buddhism" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. I have 8 copies to spare so anyone who wants a copy can email me and I will post them as soon as I have time. Robert 343 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri May 12, 2000 5:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello Dear Shin & Preeya, thanks for sharing news from the discussions in California. We would have liked to be there too. Preeya, it would be interesting to read a summary or a 'list' of discussion topics or anything you found of special interest and value. I so hope Amara recovers from her dose of the Love Bug soon! We need her contributions! Sarah Robert, Alan wrote to tell me that lack of time is the reason of his silence and hesitation to accept donations. It's not so easy now for him to take time off work. I'll chat more to him when i see him in June in U.K. Maybe we should just leave it for a while or you can arrange sth in Bkk if you prefer... > > >Dear K. Shin and K. Preeya, >It has been a great pleasured meeting everyone in the Dhamma group from >Thailand. We enjoyed spending time learning Dhamma and getting to know >each and everyone of you very well. IN Lake Tahoe, we lived and eat >together like brothers and sisters in the same house. In the morning when >we got up we enjoyed seeing how each other look like with their hair stick >up and later everyone look beautiful again. Thank you for sharing your >knowledge and support us, special thanks to K. Peeya, K. Elle and K. >Porntipa for their tireless effort for recording and making tapes for all >of us. We look forward to do this again soon. >With Metta, >Jack and US Dhamma group >shinlin wrote: > > Dear Pi Jack and Pi Oie and everyone in the US, Hello !! I am >writing this mail in the name of Pi Yid (K. Preeya). Actually she is right >next to me now. She would to take opportunity to thank you all for the >warmest and hospitality you all have given when the Thai Dhamma group went >to America.Beside the wonderful Dhamma Talk and the food in US, she would >not forget to send the questions and Pathana 100 question to you all. K. >Rathana will be back from Europe this week. Once she is back, Pi Yid and >K.Rathana will prepare all the necessary information for your studies. >Last but not least, she would like to ask Pi Jack to take good care of >Archan Santi. Pls kindly advise Archan Santi to wear warmer cloths and wear >a hat so to prevent the cold in Bay Area. Pls kindly pass the message to >Archan Santi, that Pi Yid has called his mother. She is well. Pls do not >have to be too worried. If he need to send any information, pls send email >to me at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=061015020185018132172218026077053012134048234051209113079 and I will pass the message on to his mother. > As for me, I would like to send my regards and anumotana to you all for >your continuous drive in studying Buddism which is the greatest thing that >doesn't come easy to us all. It is a pity that Pi Kwan and I could not be >able to join you all this time. Hopefully in the next coming trip to US >again, the opportunity will be greater than. Fortunately, both Pi Kwan and >I will be seeing you all again, if you all come for the Dhamma trip to >Combodia in Decemeber 2000. Anumotana and with metta,Shin Lincc Pi Yid > > > 344 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu May 11, 2000 10:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello and books Dear sarah and shin, I would very much like copies of the tapes made at the talks in USA. If you see khun ell could you mention that. we are certainly missing Khun amara - please get well soon! --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Shin & Preeya, > > thanks for sharing news from the discussions in > California. We would have > liked to be there too. > > I so hope Amara recovers from her dose of the Love > Bug soon! We need her > contributions! > > Sarah > dear sarah after you talk with alan let us do something. I can certainly arrange something in Bangkok: -perhaps A survey of paramattha dhammas? If the Dhamma study and support foundation agree we could probably print a very large run which I would like to see a part of go to sri lanka. Of course the quality cannot match that of Zolags - I just received the latest beautiful book. It is just a pleasure to touch and look at it (the content is beyond superlatives) Robert > 345 From: shinlin Date: Sat May 13, 2000 6:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello and books Dear Robert, I will get a copy of the tape for you and send them to Japan for you. What do you think ? Or are you coming around to Bangkok these few weeks. best regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Hello and books > Dear sarah and shin, > I would very much like copies of the tapes made at the > talks in USA. If you see khun ell could you mention > that. > we are certainly missing Khun amara - please get well > soon! > --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > Dear Shin & Preeya, > > > > thanks for sharing news from the discussions in > > California. We would have > > liked to be there too. > > > I so hope Amara recovers from her dose of the Love > > Bug soon! We need her > > contributions! > > > > Sarah > > dear sarah after you talk with alan let us do > something. I can certainly arrange something in > Bangkok: -perhaps A survey of paramattha dhammas? If > the Dhamma study and support foundation agree we could > probably print a very large run which I would like to > see a part of go to sri lanka. > Of course the quality cannot match that of Zolags - I > just received the latest beautiful book. It is just a > pleasure to touch and look at it (the content is > beyond superlatives) > Robert > > 346 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 17, 2000 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] noisy place for insight Dear alan & friends, yes, this made me laugh! The rule is 'No Rules!'....For me, noise is often a condition for aversion,dosa and quiet a condition for attachment,lobha...both the dosa and lobha equally worthy of being objects of awareness, along with the sounds and the many moments of thinking. As I write this I can hear drilling in a nearby flat...different moments, different realities, and what a long story of different concepts the thinking thinks about! I look f/w to reading the new book. Thankyou for yr work in making it happen. regards, Sarah Robert, I think someone said Nina will send us a copy... > >I have in the past and the present found the noisy place to be conducive to >understanding. Firstly the noisiest place I've ever been to is Bangkok and >its here that I've been able to hear Khun Sujin expounding Dhamma. Secondly >the Dhamma tapes that I listen to in England have various noises on them >such as dogs and chickens and sometimes remind me of dhamma when I hear >these in my Daily Life. >Therefore it would seem that the condition for insight would be the sanna >(memory) of the Right Path which could arise in the noisy or quiet place >and >in the city or country. >We have just published khun Sujins book "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". This >has been sponsored by Robert kirkpatrick and details can be found on our >web >site . There is also an online version of the book >on the site. > >Best wishes, Alan > > 347 From: ket kay Date: Sun May 21, 2000 7:42pm Subject: Cambodia in December Dear Friends in the Dhamma, Khun Amara would like me to pass a news onto you that the trip to Sri Lanka in December is cancelled. Instead a trip to Cambodia is organized. For furthur information, please contact Khun Duangdeun directly. Or you can ask me and I'll hunt for the answer for you. Kesinee 348 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon May 22, 2000 4:38am Subject: we're visiting Bkk! Dear friends, We'll be in Bkk for dhamma discussions on Sat, Sun 3rd,4th June. We hope to see some of you living in Bkk at the English discussions then....Ivan & Elle will know just where we are and when! If anyone has any qus they wish to have raised, just put a note here. Khun Kesinee, thanks for yr update about K.Sujin's trips. Would you wish Amara a very quick recovery from usd all and say we look f/w to seeing her in Bkk too! Sarah (& Jonothan) 349 From: shinlin Date: Mon May 22, 2000 10:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] we're visiting Bkk! Dear Sarah and Peter, It is good to hear from you that you are coming for an English dhamma discussion. Pi Joy is still have problems with her computer. But she has asked me to report the Grand opening day of the Foundation. The occassion happened as the following. The remaining of the Lord Buddha was display for public. This remaining parts of the Lord Buddha was given by the Sankara ( the head of the monk monastery) in India to Archan Sujin. So in the morning from 8:00 am to 9:45 am, all the people paid homage to the Lord Buddha, Dhamma, and the Sangha. At 9:45 am, Monks come to recite and paid homage to the 3 jewels. During the time, Archan Sujin moved the remaining of the Lord Buddha to the Altar. At around 10:15 am, Archan Sujin and the people planted the Bayan Tree from Bodhagaya in India, where Lord Buddha was enlightened. So in the Foundation, there is a Bodhi Tree of the Lord Buddha. Then after this, there was a dhamma discussion. This is just a report on the occassion on Visaka Day, May 17,2000, the granding opening of the foundation. As for last Saturday, May 27, 2000, the first time for English dhamma discussion at the Foundation. From 4:00 pm- 6:00pm. The discussion went well. The English discussion will be every other Saturday. with regards, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 9:38 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] we're visiting Bkk! > Dear friends, > > We'll be in Bkk for dhamma discussions on Sat, Sun 3rd,4th June. We hope to > see some of you living in Bkk at the English discussions then....Ivan & Elle > will know just where we are and when! If anyone has any qus they wish to > have raised, just put a note here. > > Khun Kesinee, thanks for yr update about K.Sujin's trips. Would you wish > Amara a very quick recovery from usd all and say we look f/w to seeing her > in Bkk too! > > Sarah (& Jonothan) 350 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon May 22, 2000 11:35am Subject: ! Buddha relic Dear Shin Lin, I was realy amazed and pleased to hear that Acharn Sujin recived a relic of The Buddha from India. The accumulations of parami to have such a great thing hapen must be enormous. Robert --- 351 From: shinlin Date: Mon May 22, 2000 1:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] ! Buddha relic Dear Robert, I am trying to get the English discussion tape from our dhamma friends. Once I get it I will mail them to you. Let me know which address will be the best address for me to send you. As for the remaining of the Lord Buddha, it was an amazing sight. There were 5 pcs. The color is ivory. I was almost in tears, there was piti ( one of the cestaskia ) that arised and fall away. The feeling was like goose bums all over. I don't know how to describe it. But any way, dhamma was simply doing its job. And now, everything is over already anyway. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 10:35 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] ! Buddha relic > Dear Shin Lin, > I was realy amazed and pleased to hear that Acharn > Sujin recived a relic of The Buddha from India. The > accumulations of parami to have such a great thing > hapen must be enormous. > Robert > --- 352 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 23, 2000 3:23pm Subject: I'm back! Dear friends in the dhamma, I've finally got my machine running properly again, and am happy to say that we've been able to recuperate most of the pictures, in fact over 90% of them! First I would like to thank Ket and Shin for keeping everyone informed, and everyone who sent 'get well wishes', and a little amendment as to the relics' provenance: if I remember correctly, according to Khun Sujin, it was the Thai Supreme Patriarch who sent the relics in full regalia, accompanied by soldiers of the armed forces (if only one from each). The bodhi tree was brought as a seed from India and planted in Thailand, exactly one year ago to the Visakha Day. We are arranging some beautiful pictures taken during the ceremonies for the web, and hope to put them up soon. Today we have added a newsletter (Newsletter 5, newsletter section, sent from the States about present dhamma discussion groups both in Thai and English in CA. Soon we will be uploading the last chapter of 'Summary', as well as an article sent by Robert, written by the then Dhammadaro Bhikku. There ae also new books to be added to our collection, I will be sending more news as we progress, Amara 353 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 24, 2000 10:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I'm back! Amara, We're SO GLAD you're back, you've been much missed. Thanks for all the info which I look f/w to checking out. As you've probably heard, we'll be seeing you v.soon in Bkk (Jun2-5) at the English discussions and Jonothan at the Thai as well. Watch out for love bugs in future! best wishes, Sarah > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >I've finally got my machine running properly again, and am happy to say >that >we've been able to recuperate most of the pictures, in fact over 90% of >them! First I would like to thank Ket and Shin for keeping everyone >informed, and everyone who sent 'get well wishes', and a little amendment >as >to the relics' provenance: if I remember correctly, according to Khun >Sujin, it was the Thai Supreme Patriarch who sent the relics in full >regalia, accompanied by soldiers of the armed forces (if only one from >each). The bodhi tree was brought as a seed from India and planted in >Thailand, exactly one year ago to the Visakha Day. > >We are arranging some beautiful pictures taken during the ceremonies for >the >web, and hope to put them up soon. Today we have added a newsletter >(Newsletter 5, newsletter section, sent from >the States about present dhamma discussion groups both in Thai and English >in CA. Soon we will be uploading the last chapter of 'Summary', as well as >an article sent by Robert, written by the then Dhammadaro Bhikku. > >There ae also new books to be added to our collection, I will be sending >more news as we progress, > >Amara 354 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 24, 2000 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I'm back! >We're SO GLAD you're back, you've been much missed. Thanks for all the info >which I look f/w to checking out. > >As you've probably heard, we'll be seeing you v.soon in Bkk (Jun2-5) at the >English discussions and Jonothan at the Thai as well. Sarah, Thanks, I missed everyone too, and am very glad to be seeing you and Jonothan in person soon! And everyone, We have added another newsletter (no.6), about the Cambodian trip (except that we don't have any details yet), and the last chapter of the 'Summary', Chapter 7, Samatha Bhavana to DS in the Newsletter and Advanced sections respectively. From what I heard, several of our Dhamma friends from America will be joining the trip to Cambodia, and as of the day of the opening of the foundation building which was the first day the list was open, there were already over a hundred people signed up. Anyone who wishes to join the group should please contact Khun Duengduen immediately at the foundation address. I will add more details as soon as I receive, them here or in the newsletter, Amara 355 From: amara chay Date: Thu May 25, 2000 6:03pm Subject: The last part of Summary Dear friends in the dhamma, Just a note to inform you that the last part of the Summary, a sort of bibliography, is now added to the advanced section, thus completing the book as it is in Thai. We will be adding the glossary which is being revised, which should be useful for the whole site, but it might take a while, Amara 356 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon May 29, 2000 10:47am Subject: Nature of sati (mindfulness) I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of awareness of the reality of the present moment. A related question is as to the difference between the sati that accompanies every moment of kusala and the sati that is the development of the path. 357 From: amara chay Date: Mon May 29, 2000 11:44am Subject: inauguration pictures Dear friends in the dhamma, I have just uploaded some pictures from the inauguration day, am happy to say the two new pages are some of my best work! Do take a look when you have time, newsletter section, . Amara 358 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon May 29, 2000 8:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nature of sati (mindfulness) dEAR Jon, A great subject. If we don't understand the characteristic of sati and the differenc between the sati that is associated with samattha and vipassana then we are bound to misunderstand the path. My article at http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html gives an introduction. We should go into this topic in as much detail as possible. I hope everyone can contribute. Robert --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I was reading a description of the characteristic of > mindfulness (sati) as > being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the > object of > consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to > the development of > mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the > development of > awareness of the reality of the present moment. > > A related question is as to the difference between > the sati that accompanies > every moment of kusala and the sati that is the > development of the path. 359 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: noisy place for insight Hello Alan, << ---- Allan wrote : I have in the past and the present found the noisy place to be conducive to understanding. Firstly the noisiest place I've ever been to is Bangkok . . . Secondly the Dhamma tapes that I listen to in England . . . Therefore it would seem that the condition for insight would be the sanna (memory) of the Right Path which could arise in the noisy or quiet place and in the city or country. . . . ------ >> For myself, the noisiest place is my mind.. :-)) If someone can mention some noisy place, my mind can make something noisier.. If I see some picture of some noisy place, my mind can make it worse.. Even when everyone is asleep and the house is quiet, my mind can create a lot of noises, too.. And yet, when Mindfulness is present, my mind does not classify anything as noisy.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 360 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] inauguration pictures Thanks for posting the pictures of the inauguration proceedings. They are good shots. i especially like the one of Khun Sujin carrying the relics. It must have been a wonderful event to take part in. Thanks also for your translation of the Summary of Paramatthadhamma. I have downloaded the first part to look at. >From: "amara chay" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] inauguration pictures >Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:44:39 PDT > >Dear friends in the dhamma, > >I have just uploaded some pictures from the inauguration day, am happy to >say the two new pages are some of my best work! Do take a look when you >have time, newsletter section, . > >Amara 361 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:38am Subject: Re: Dead friend Hello Robert, << --- A professor (British) at my university died suddenly and I attended his funeral yesterday. . . . He was a lovely man - an accomplished writer, popular teacher but self-deprecating and full of subtle humour. He was on the commitee that hired me and we have been good friends ever since. What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? It always makes me reflect on Dhamma. ------ >> Q: What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? A: I accept that the person and everything having any kind of relationships to that him/her are gone forever.. If I recall anything related to him/her, that would be my own imagination, and that would be a proof that I have attachment to him/her.. Each time I catch my own attachment, I increase Mindfulness to understand any Dukkha (either happiness, hurt or numb feelings) residing in me, and my secret wishes or fears, which he/she reminds me of.. My wishes and my fears are my true attachment.. Other than that kind of reflections, each time I recall of the dead person, I wish him/her be reborn in better realms, in better living conditions, in better health, in better happiness, in situations to learn, believe, practice Buddha's Dhamma and to attain Magga/Phala/Nibbana in soon or in an countable number of lifetimes.. << ---- I never discussed Buddhism with him - except that he knew I was Buddhist- I was somewhat in awe of his intellect and felt uncomfortable bringing it up. Yet now I think I should have: even when people do not like to hear Dhamma it sometimes conditions understanding in the future. It is a seed that must be planted for future growth. ------- >> I have introduced Mindfulness (Samadhi and Vipassana) to Christians and people of other religions without mentioning words like Buddha, Dhamma, Sati, Vipassana, etc.. I even stressed that people can hold tight to whatever religion or faith they have had while "trying out" Awareness.. I can't remember all people I talked to, but I vaguely remember that they tried out Mindfulness at different levels with different effort for different length of time.. As you said, << It is a seed that must be planted for future growth..>>, so I was not pushing for immediate results.. During such introduction, I try very hard : (1) to keep Mindfulness going for myself ((ie, watch out for my Ego to take control of the conversation, or to push for my beliefs over others')), (2) to remember that the introduction is for the benefits, thus inner peace, happiness and well-being of the listeners, and (3) to respect their beliefs, their faiths.. (( meaning, if they are willing to listen, I shall speak.. If they don't want to hear, I shall not whisper or hint anything in any way.. Right Speech must be upheld as much as I can, and this is a very tough task for me)) << ---- The same with Buddhists who have a different interpretation of the Dhamma - especially those who think they can control things. It is sometimes tiring to talk with them but by doing so it plants seeds (mainly doubt) that may blossom even in future lives. ------- >> Please be patient, and wait out for the Right time, Right place, Right conditions (their readiness).. I strongly believe that my own effort in keeping Mindfulness as continuous as I can benefits me first, and others later.. I am certain Mindfulness helps keep my character in check from moment to moment.. I am also certain that Mindfulness/Insight has changed my personality.. The new character/personality of "mine" ( of Mindfulness, actually ) is the most affective invitation to Mindfulness.. In the past, people, who were submerged in difficult situations, told me something like : "I want to be peaceful and happy like you.. Tell me how I can be like you.." .. Therefore, I strongly believe that Mindfulness of ourselves is the best way for us to help bring Buddha's Dhamma to "non- believers".. Have you ever thought that Mindfulness of ourselves *IS* Metta to us and others ?? :-)) With metta, Theresa. 362 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue May 30, 2000 11:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: noisy place for insight Dear Theresa, Great to have you joining the discussion. As you say when there is mindfulness then no noise. Just the experience of a reality. Following on from what Alan said about Bangkok: I remember the first few times I met Khun Sujin. Walking along Sukumvit road afterwards and beginning to dissect the world into 6 doors. My outlook on Bangkok and Dhamma changed. The sights and sounds no longer a hindrance, they became food for insight. And then understanding also that thinking, worry, whatever, were also just dhammas - objects for insight. Robert John (Kirkpatrick) --- > For myself, the noisiest place is my mind.. :-)) > > If someone can mention some noisy place, my mind can > make something > noisier.. If I see some picture of some noisy place, > my mind can make > it worse.. Even when everyone is asleep and the > house is quiet, my > mind can create a lot of noises, too.. > > And yet, when Mindfulness is present, my mind does > not classify > anything as noisy.. :-)) > > With metta, > > Theresa. > > > 363 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 30, 2000 5:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nature of sati (mindfulness) >I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as >being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of >consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of >mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of >awareness of the reality of the present moment. > >A related question is as to the difference between the sati that >accompanies >every moment of kusala and the sati that is the development of the path. Jonothan and Theresa, I think the mind is a very powerful reality, as Theresa says, it can store and amplify or minimise the object, string the memories out as infinite thoughts, or, with right understanding, be conscious of or study what is present at the immediate moment and accumulate knowledge about the aramana. It can even be mindful of itself as being certain kinds of citta arising through the mind door, in an endless current. Most of our lives we spend time thinking, there are only short moments experiencing objects through the five sense doors, followed by immediate identification (correct or not) and then concepts take over, endless connotations and events brought up from accumulated memories. In a sense, the object and its true characteristics are forgotten, for most people never studied, only the concepts fill their entire lives. Being mindful of realities as they really are accumulates knowledge about the object of sati's true nature, instead of always being caught up in the current of thoughts and imaginations. The truth is the only way towards the realization of impermanence, attachments and detachments, and the peace that the knowledge brings, level by level. Mindfulness pays full attention (ekaggata cetasika) of that precise citta of sati to the object at that instant, I think. Amara 364 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 0:48pm Subject: Re: Nature of sati (mindfulness) Hello Jon and Rob, << ----- Jon wrote : I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of awareness of the reality of the present moment. -------- >> Before my initial teacher introduced me to Vipassana, I knew nothing about Buddha's Dhamma, either philosophical or practical.. My teacher taught me about Mindfulness by interrupting me and inserting a short sentence : "Note that,too".. ((My teacher used the term "note" to mean "be mindful")).. During our conversations, he asked me how I would think, feel or do in certain situations, and then I honestly gave him my responses in my layman thinking, which was not religious or saintly, but very human and emotional.. Ex: (I said)"I think that ..."; (he interrupted with)"Note it 'thinking, thinking,..' " Ex: (I said) "I feel that ..."; (he interrupted with) "Note it 'feeling, feeling,..' " Ex: (I said) "I am angry because.."; (he interrupted with) "Note it 'angry, angry,..' " Ex: (I said) "I plan to ... "; (he interrupted with) "Note it 'planning, planning,..' " etc. etc. etc. His interruptions came steadily during our conversation, until I cried out : "Aaaah, anything which crosses my mind, I must make note of it.. But, if I do that, I can't think of anything.." To this he said something like : "With practice, Mindfulness will end each thought as soon as it arises.." When I can keep Mindfulness continuous regardless what I think or do, I find myself having nothing to say, nothing to think about, but I know clearly how my mind switches from thought to thought, or from consciousness to consciousness.. That's how I aware <> with Mindfulness.. << ----- Rob wrote : ...If we don't understand the characteristic of sati and the differenc between the sati that is associated with samattha and vipassana then we are bound to misunderstand the path. My article at http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html gives an introduction. We should go into this topic in as much detail as possible. I hope everyone can contribute. -------- >> Your article is well-written, informative, and useful.. I have few inputs to what you wrote in your article.. R: Buddha certainly recommended mindfulness in daily life. T: For meditators who want to reach for higher goal, this is a must.. Besides Sitting and Walking Meditation, I try to practice General Meditation throughout the day.. At this time, when I sleep, I am totally out; I need to work more on Mindfulness.. hehehe.. R: We may try to stop attachment ... Refined, hidden desires but dangerous because they obstruct understanding. Craving is like a great magician that has many different marvelous tricks that all obscure reality. T: So far, I find that when my mind lingers on certain topics, I have attachment because of either Lobha, Dosa or Moha.. LINGERING means that our mind is stuck with a topic and Mindfulness does not end its current thought immediately; ie, we don't see our mind switches over from one thought to the next one.. REMEMBERING something relating from certain past is not LINGERING, but it is a sankhara of the current moment.. As long as, Mindfulness ends the current sankhara (a memory, a recollection, a thought) immediately, there is no attachment, no Lobha, no Dosa, no Moha.. R: It may seem that we can control awareness but realities, including sati, only last for the briefest moment, they cant really be controlled. We aren't aware of the subtle lobha (unwholesome attachment) that is actually performing the action of "controlling". T: Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Sadhu ! Mindfulness is the only way to stop "controlling", restlessness, or any hindrances.. We simply choose one aspect of the reality, pull all of our attention toward it, makes it the "object of mindfulness", and keeps Mindfulness going.. One aspect of the reality can be things like the beginnings, and the endings (of consciousness), or the endings (of consciousness), or the changes of sensations (vedana), or the changes of rupas (we pick one of the 4 rupas), or the changes/formations of the current Dukkha (ex, pain, rambling thoughts, sadness, happiness, comfortable feelings, etc.), or the current sankhara (we can acknowledge it as comfortable or uncomfortable feelings), etc. etc.. The main idea for picking one aspect of the current reality and follows it with Mindfulness is that we will soon gain Concentration and Insight, which relates to Impermanence (and also the other 2 Lakkhanas).. When we experience Lakkhanas, Mindfulness destroys hindrances in the current moment of Mindfulness.. R: Do you agree that it is important if one is serious about developing vipassana that we must avoid certain sense objects such as violent movies? T: We should avoid any sense objects which are conditions for more sankharas.. On one extreme, we must be careful about watching violent movies.. On the other extreme, if meeting our meditation teacher brings attachment, we should increase Mindfulness during the meeting and each time we long for more meeting, more support, more dhamma talk.. This longing is not the reality of the present moment, if we are mindful of it; when we are mindful of it, it's not attachment.. :- )) R: ... clinging to rules and rituals ... T: We can see our clinging, if we keep Mindfulness continuous.. So far, it seems that Rules and Rituals are Sanna to me.. For now, the only way for me to identify my clinging to rules and rituals is by seeing Dukkha related to them.. I can't think of a good example, and so, I'm going to use something I am hoping to achieve.. Ex: I believe that I am a dutiful, loving, caring wife and so, my husband appreciates me; this is an expectation based on the rules/rituals of marriage which I have learned from the society and accepted as truths, as part of my knowledge (my ego).. When I am happy ((this is Dukkha, because Mindfulness shows me that this happiness is directly linked to a fear of sadness)), I indirectly see that I am attached to my expection in the concept of marriage and love.. When I am sad ((this Dukkha is easier to identify, and it is linked with a wish for happy feelings)), I indirectly see that I am attached to my expection in the concept of marriage and love.. Sanna !! With metta, Theresa. 365 From: Theresa Date: Tue May 30, 2000 1:03pm Subject: Hello.. :-)) Hello, My name is Theresa.. I'm glad Robert introduced me to this group, and I just join earlier today.. :-)) I have practiced Vipassana since November of 1995.. My practice includes General, Sitting and Walking meditation.. My initial teacher gave me the tummy as my initial point of focus, and my mind tends to fall there if nothing special comes to my mind.. English is my second language.. My Buddhist terminology, in both English and my mother tongue, is poor.. I read Dhamma books slowly, because I am a slow reader.. I digest reading materials slower than what I learn by hearing.. I have not read most suttas, commentaries and books, and know that I should.. :-)) I ask for the help from dhamma friends on this list when I misuse terms and/or misunderstand Dhamma or Buddhist concepts.. Thank you ahead of time.. :-)) Most of what I write bases mostly on my own practice and experience.. My knowledge of Dhamma continues to change as I walk further on the Noble Path.. Therefore, what I write can be wrong and needs someone to point it out to benefit me and others.. I share what I know, but my knowledge is not the ultimate truth.. :-)) I look forward to read your messages posted on the Dhammastudy list.. Theresa. 366 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 30, 2000 7:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] inauguration pictures They are >good shots. i especially like the one of Khun Sujin carrying the relics. Jonothan, It was taken by Khun Chutiman, in fact most were, except for a few by Khun Prapan- I still haven't been able to contact them for the English rendition of their names so I haven't added the credits yet! Aren't they great. We may be adding a few more when we upload the book presented at the inauguration. We are also preparing the article Robert sent, thanks again, Robert. Glad you liked the pages, Amara 367 From: amara chay Date: Tue May 30, 2000 8:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello.. :-)) Hello Theresa, and welcome! As a fellow member of the discussion group, I am very glad you joined, and look forward to reading more of your interesting and amusing comments. I am also responsible for , which has some rather rare writings by Sujin Boriharnwanaket on both samatha and vipassana, which you might find interesting: in the advanced section, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Parts 7 + 8 respectively, although Part 9, 'Guidelines' talks about both. In fact for a clear understanding of the dhamma, the whole (massive) book will be useful, I hope you get around to that someday! Amara 368 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 31, 2000 3:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello.. :-)) Dear Teresa, I'm also happy to see you on the list and to hear your comments and experiences. You're very welcome...please continue with your contributions and don't worry if the English or Buddhist terminology have mistakes...nothing needs to be perfect here! I'm curious to know where you're from and where you're living..? We all need pointers and guidance and discussion. That's why we're here. I'm sure you'll find it very useful, even if you don't always agree with other comments! Best wishes, Sarah >Hello, > >My name is Theresa.. I'm glad Robert introduced me to this group, and >I just join earlier today.. :-)) > >I have practiced Vipassana since November of 1995.. My practice >includes General, Sitting and Walking meditation.. My initial teacher >gave me the tummy as my initial point of focus, and my mind tends to >fall there if nothing special comes to my mind.. > >English is my second language.. My Buddhist terminology, in both >English and my mother tongue, is poor.. I read Dhamma books slowly, >because I am a slow reader.. I digest reading materials slower than >what I learn by hearing.. I have not read most suttas, commentaries >and books, and know that I should.. :-)) I ask for the help from >dhamma friends on this list when I misuse terms and/or misunderstand >Dhamma or Buddhist concepts.. Thank you ahead of time.. :-)) > >Most of what I write bases mostly on my own practice and experience.. >My knowledge of Dhamma continues to change as I walk further on the >Noble Path.. Therefore, what I write can be wrong and needs someone >to point it out to benefit me and others.. I share what I know, but >my knowledge is not the ultimate truth.. :-)) > >I look forward to read your messages posted on the Dhammastudy list.. > >Theresa. > 369 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed May 31, 2000 3:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nature of sati (mindfulness) >I was reading a description of the characteristic of mindfulness (sati) as >being the mental factor that is not forgetful of the object of >consciousness. I am wondering how this relates to the development of >mindfulness as we talk about it on this list, ie the development of >awareness of the reality of the present moment. Jonothan, These are good points for discussion. At the moment of mindfulness, there is no 'forgetting'...the minfulness or sati that accompanies the moment of consciousness, citta, doesn't forget or be 'not minful' at that moment. What is it mindful of? The object of consciousness, i.e. the reality of the present moment. For example, whether or not there is any mindfulness, seeing experiences a visible object at his moment, usually with no understanding or mindfulness. When there is understanding and mindfulness, the seeing and the visible object don't change, but there is knowing and awareness of the object for a moment. > >A related question is as to the difference between the sati that >accompanies >every moment of kusala and the sati that is the development of the path. > Different levels of sati ar accompanied by different 'kinds' of understanding. For example, at each moment of giving or intending to give there is a level of sati at the level of giving. It's good and should be developed by anyone regardless of religion. However, there is not necessarily and understanding of non-self...most people, even most Buddhists give with the idea of 'me' giving. By sati that is development of the path is meant sati accompanied by right understanding that knows and is aware of a reality, in other words the development of satipatthana. Sarah 370 From: Theresa Date: Wed May 31, 2000 0:04am Subject: Re: Hello.. :-)) Hello Sarah, >... I'm curious to know where > you're from and where you're living..? I live in "Sunny California", U.S.. Please allow me to refrain from sharing with you where I'm from originally.. Let see if you can guess it out from reading my posts.. hehehe.. I know I am not good at hiding information.. :-)) > We all need pointers and guidance and discussion. That's why we're > here. I'm sure you'll find it very useful, even if you don't always > agree with other comments! I agree.. :-)) Comments of all three flavors (Dosa, Lobha or Moha), are great pointers to meditators, so I believe.. hehehe.. Theresa. 371 From: Theresa Date: Wed May 31, 2000 8:47am Subject: Re: abhidhamma in daily life Hello Robert, You do write very well.. :-)) It's something I must work on.. hehehe.. << ---- Later, if panna develops, we see that there is no self ... No "mind" to make calm. We see that every moment is just like any other moment. There are feeling, perception, mental formations, and material phenomena. ... The perception of "pure clarity" is just perception, the perception of this moment, just perception. The most refined sensations in the body are just sensations in the body. ------- >> Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! I'm glad you have found your inner peace and inner happiness in the moment of Mindfulness, from moment to moment.. :-)) << ---- ... "this path is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise": Middle length sayings Sutta 95 Canki. ------- >> I have this thought to share, but I hope no one will scream out of disagreement.. hehehe.. Here it is : << I have never been curious about Nibbana.. What is it ?? What does it have or not have ?? How to get it ?? How to get it ASAP ?? How does it feel like ?? Is it like the "super-Jhana" (sorry for using my own layman term again) ?? etc.. I try to practice the four foundations of MIndfulness as much as I can, not for Nibbana, but for the End of Suffering.. Suffering, for me, is the changes ( for crying out loud, the UNCONTROLLABLE CHANGES !!).. The uncontrollable and unbearable changes lead me to Vipassana and keep me practicing.. I meditate with the hope that I can "live" fully from moment to moment, to be able to free myself my own self-creating Suffering, and to improve my own personalities.. Arahantship sounds great; the ultimate freedom from all life suffering sounds great; better births in better realms sound great; yet I am concerned about realizing the inner peace and the inner happiness in each thought, each feeling, each sensation, each moment of living.. Momentary living with Mindfulness is the strongest reason for me to practice and continue to practice Vipassana.. Nibbana, whatever it is, is a bonus.. :-)) Because my dream to live fully from moment to moment is very simple, the "Middle Path" seems to be closer to my reach, right in the moment of Mindfulness.. :-)) >> << ---- We have to be very cautious, modest, and circumspect before we assume we really know what wisdom is, what sati is, what right concentration is. I am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I still need to hear more, this life and future lives. ------- >> <> are absolutely important.. For Mindfulness to be filled with Insight and Concentration, we must be cautious and modest, like a dying person breathing his/her last breath with all caution, respect, etc. because death is next.. :-)) I find myself having less Right Effort, whenever I think that I still have many days and weeks and years to go, to practice, to try to reach for the End of Suffering.. However, when I am mindful of the current moment as if "this" mindful moment is my last chance, the Noble Path is much clearer and easier to reach out for, because the mind expects nothing after "this" mindful moment.. This kind of reminder works great for me, and it helps bring in all the Right mental qualities "in a snap".. A snap is an exaggeration on my part..hehehe.. Actually, the time to get all Right mental qualities reduces with practice.. At this time, it seems that my General Meditation results (term?) are closing the gap with the results (term?) gained during Sitting Meditation.. << ---- I am still very much at the investigating stage, the beginning of right view, the beginning of investigating dhammas. I still need to hear more, this life and future lives. ------- >> Robert, I find that, for myself, *IF* I don't expect anything from this life or future lives, but, instead, *IF* I expect myself to live fully within this very moment and to exert effort for the quality of one current-moment Mindfulness and for the clearer-clearer-and-yet-clearer view of the transition from the very end of this current-moment Mindfulness to the very beginning of the next moment, then, I can "see" Dhamma(s) better.. :-)) Like you, I am at the investigating stage, a learning stage.. Actually, this learning/investigating stage will last until the attainment of Arahantship.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 372 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 31, 2000 3:40am Subject: 'New' article Dear friend in the dhamma, Just a note to tell you that has added Bhikku Dhammadaro's article to the beginner section, an article titled 'Be Here Now'. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you find any mistakes, Amara 373 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article Dear Amara, Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra Dhammadharo on web. I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have some intersting stories about him , for example how did he meet khun sujin. Bron from adelaide recently sent me some details of his life which I will use, but the more the better. Sarah if you can supply some details too- how long was he in sri lanka , or anything else? Robert --- amara chay wrote: > Dear friend in the dhamma, > > Just a note to tell you that > has added Bhikku > Dhammadaro's article to the beginner section, an > article titled 'Be Here > Now'. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you find > any mistakes, > > Amara > > 374 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 2:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma in daily life Dear Theresa, Your writing is fine. The main reason I invited you to join the group was because you are sincerely trying to understand Dhamma. But also your writing is very honest and straightforward - you show yourself as you really are - I like it. Thanks for looking over the archives and making comments. It gives us something solid to discuss, so please keep it up when you have time. Sometimes I get a bit busy so can't always give your replies the detailed comments they deserve. But I do read and appreciate all of them. .. I try to practice the > four foundations of > MIndfulness as much as I can, not for Nibbana, but > for the End of > Suffering.. It is good that you are not longing for nibbana . This is just another desire, samudaya sacca (cause of suffering) and merely perpetuates samsara. Many people these days want nibbana ( and some think they have experienced it)but they don't know what it is. Until one deeply understands citta, cetasika and rupa how could one understand what the ceasing of citta, cetasika and rupa is? Do you feel more stable on a plane or on the ground? This earth is revolving around the sun at thousands of miles an hour and the whole galaxy is moving in some direction at vast speed. The planet is like a speck of dust in the vastness of space. But the actual state of things is far more radically unstable than that. Now there are conditions for rupas (matter) to keep arising but if those conditions ceased then this earth, the solar sysytem and the entire universe would immediately vanish. Thus nowhere to run, nowhere to hide from this incessant change. Nibbana is the only refuge because at parinibbana no more rupa no more nama(mental phenomenon). Suffering, for me, is the changes ( for > crying out loud, > the UNCONTROLLABLE CHANGES !!).. The uncontrollable > and unbearable > changes lead me to Vipassana and keep me > practicing.. In the Samyutta Nikaya *(Gradual Sayings, Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) the Buddha said: ... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are.... They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. The Buddha then said that for the enlightened one the opposite is true. The enlighted ones are happy BECAUSE everything is impermanent. They are happy because nothing is taken for self. They delight in anicca, dukkha, and anatta whereas the normal person, not seeing these fundamental truths, tries to resist them. We are not enlightened, thus we still resist. For me when I see this process, of wanting things to be different, it is warning signal, a flashing light. A reminder that at these moments there is no understanding, no awareness, and a reminder that there is still much to be done. In some ways these moments are less of a problem (on the path) because they come with unpleasant feeling - they are obvious. It is the subtle pleasant feelings that one can get tricked by - we can be led by them and think that we are practising correctly when we are just chasing feeling. " I am concerned about realizing the inner > peace and the > inner happiness in each thought, each feeling, each > sensation, each > moment of living.. Momentary living with Mindfulness > is the strongest > reason for me to practice and continue to practice > Vipassana.. > Nibbana, whatever it is, is a bonus.. :-)) Because > my dream to live > fully from moment to moment is very simple, the > "Middle Path" seems > to be closer to my reach, right in the moment of > Mindfulness.. :-))" > "I find myself > having less Right Effort, whenever I think that I > still have many > days and weeks and years to go, to practice, to try > to reach for the > End of Suffering.. However, when I am mindful of the > current moment > as if "this" mindful moment is my last chance, the > Noble Path is much > clearer and easier to reach out for, because the > mind expects nothing > after "this" mindful moment.. This kind of reminder > works great for > me, and it helps bring in all the Right mental > qualities "in a > snap".. A snap is an exaggeration on my > part..hehehe.. Actually, the > time to get all Right mental qualities reduces with > practice.. At > this time, it seems that my General Meditation > results (term?) are > closing the gap with the results (term?) gained > during Sitting > Meditation.. " I am glad you see that it is this moment that should be understood, and please keep on until you see that there is actually no difference between a moment of sati when doing sitting meditation and during everday life. And it is great that you realize that effort can be right or wrong. I used to try to have sati, to make effort, to try to be calm, to experience this and that. I now think this is not the way. It is all too easy to mistake subtle desire for sati. Panna, wisdom, and sati, are always associated with alobha, detachment. But effort can be, and is most of the time, associated with lobha, desire. The right effort of the eightfold path is not easy to know. Now your words make me consider the Dhamma. I can't help it: effort is there, but with no desire to have it, it arises because there are the right conditions. Understanding comes gradually. It seeps in, slowly,slowly:and if one is on the right path it sooner or later saturates to the bone. It comes not because "we" make it happen but by the Buddha's words which are the condition for contemplation and right awareness. Thus your words about not expecting any results are very important. Robert > 375 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 2:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend > > Have you ever thought that Mindfulness of ourselves > *IS* Metta to us > and others ?? :-)) > Dear Theresa, Thanks for all the comments about helping others. I agree, mindfulness is the way to have more metta. Robert 376 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article >Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:07:57 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Amara, >Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra >Dhammadharo on web. >I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 >pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have >some intersting stories about him , for example how >did he meet khun sujin. Bron from adelaide recently >sent me some details of his life which I will use, but >the more the better. Sarah if you can supply some >details too- how long was he in sri lanka , or >anything else? >Robert Robert, I will ask Khun Sujin about it, but I think Jonothan was closer to him than anyone else, if I remember correctly. Could Nina help, because she has such a good memory? She was here when he met Khun Sujin, I think. I myself spent a long period away from Thailand during the time he was here. Really a brilliant mind! Amara 377 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article dear Robert, We'll try to make some notes this w'end while we're in Bkk and send to you on return. Yes jonothan supported him all the years he was a monk and we both took him on trips to India and Sri lanka. We also spent a time with him after he disrobed in Bkk & Oz. We're v.rough on dates, so if you would send any dates you alr. have info on, then it's easier for us to fill in other parts. He had excellent understanding of the Dhamma and wonerful oratory skills and yet life was not at all easy for him because of his accumulations! Ivan & Nina can both add a lot too and also Vince in Oz. Ivan would certainly know much more than anyone about the last part of his life in Bkk. I'm glad you got onto Bron...I sent her an invite to the list but she didn't join. Maybe you & Lester can encourage her! She'd make some good contributions! Sarah > >Dear Amara, >Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra >Dhammadharo on web. >I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 >pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have >some intersting stories about him , for example how >did he meet khun sujin. Bron from adelaide recently >sent me some details of his life which I will use, but >the more the better. Sarah if you can supply some >details too- how long was he in sri lanka , or >anything else? >Robert >--- amara chay wrote: > > Dear friend in the dhamma, > > > > Just a note to tell you that > > has added Bhikku > > Dhammadaro's article to the beginner section, an > > article titled 'Be Here > > Now'. Please don't hesitate to tell me if you find > > any mistakes, > > > > Amara > > 378 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: abhidhamma in daily life Theresa, It's great to get all your long messages. There are many areas to discuss further, but I'm pretty busy with work at the moment. However, after mentioning about our friend who passed away who had a lot of understanding of the dhamma and also a 'difficult personality' conventionally speaking, I was reminded of your comment below. You mention you are interested to free yourself from suffereing and to improve your personality. We all wish this many times a day, especially when we're having a tough time or when there is dosa (aversion) arising to a smaller or larger degree. But isn't this just our wishful thinking and craving not to have any unpleasantness in our life? Aren't we trying to change or control our personality with the idea of a self that can change it? Doesn't it show a lack of upekkha (equanimity) when we mind what the reality is at this moment and want it to be different? Isn't it better to accept the 'personality' at this moment and let the awareness be aware of the aversion or whatever other characteristic is appearing, instead of trying to change it? Best wishes and looking forward to more of your messages, Sarah - I meditate with the hope that I can "live" fully from moment to moment, to be able to >free myself my own self-creating Suffering, and to improve my own >personalities.. 379 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'New' article Dear Robert, after writing my other notes, I quit the list, had my bath, got ready for bed but the thinking and sanna were still running on with stories about Alan D,/Phra Dhammadharo. In particular, I was remembering how he once told me his favourite sutta was the story about a lay person in the time of the Buddha. The Buddha said he had started off with the accumulations and ability to bcome an arahat. However, he started drinking and the drinking led to the breaking of the other precepts and in the end he didn't have the ability or wisdom to attain any level of enlightenment. Alan/Phra D. said he found it such a useful reminder to not sqander our opportunities to hear and understand and develop more wisdom... Perhaps someone can locate and quote the full sutta which I've very crudely paraphrased (maybe incorrectly?). Who else has a 'favourite' or particularly meaningful sutta to quote or summarise? Sarah >Dear Amara, >Thank you very much for putting The article by Phra >Dhammadharo on web. >I will send you a short biogarphy of him - maybe 3 >pages- as soon as I have time to write it. Do you have >some intersting stories about him , 380 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed May 31, 2000 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another New book and FREE Dear group, I just received some copies of the newly printed Realities and Concepts by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. I can send this and also Taking refuge in Buddhism to anyone who wants a copy: please let me know. Realities and Concepts has been published for free distribution and when I go to Bangkok in september I will bring back a few hundred copies. We can then promote over the web and I will send them off. I was thinking that if someone like Jack in california could handle distribution in America, and we can find someone in Europe to handle around there, I could cover the rest of the world. It is only a small book so the postage is reasonable - especially by seamail. I will also send copies to temples in Sri lanka. I look forward to some more info. on Phra Dhammadhara later Sarah- Thanks. And if you can find out more about the Cambodia trip? I wish I could join you this weekend . Best wishes Robert --- 381 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend Theresa, Welcome to the list, and thanks for your stimulating contributions. >Q: What sort of reflections do you have when someone you know die? >A: I accept that the person and everything having any kind of >relationships to that him/her are gone forever.. If I recall anything >related to him/her, that would be my own imagination, and that would >be a proof that I have attachment to him/her.. Each time I catch my >own attachment, I increase Mindfulness to understand any Dukkha >(either happiness, hurt or numb feelings) residing in me, and my >secret wishes or fears, which he/she reminds me of.. I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother (Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of enlightenment where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of heart". The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to know these tendencies more clearly. Like Robert, i find the death of someone I know a condition for reflection about Dhamma generally, and a reminder of the wisdom of not putting off the study of the present reality. Jonothan 382 From: Theresa Date: Wed May 31, 2000 11:20pm Subject: My personality?! (was: re:abhidhamma in daily life) Hello Sarah, I'm glad you brought up a subtle but very important point.. M Y P E R S O N A L I T Y :-)) << ---- T: ...I meditate with the hope that I can "live" fully from moment to moment, to be able to free myself my own self-creating Suffering, and to improve my own personalities.. S: But isn't this just our wishful thinking and craving not to have any unpleasantness in our life? Aren't we trying to change or control our personality with the idea of a self that can change it? Doesn't it show a lack of upekkha (equanimity) when we mind what the reality is at this moment and want it to be different? Isn't it better to accept the 'personality' at this moment and let the awareness be aware of the aversion or whatever other characteristic is appearing, instead of trying to change it? ------- >> Have you noticed that I wrote "personalitIES" (plural form) ?? You wrote "personalitY" (singular form), as it should for grammatical correction.. Q: Is "wishing" for a "better personality" Craving (greed for something better) or rejection (dosa against the current personality)? A: Yes and No.. :-)) Yes, wishing for "another" personality, regardless better or worse, than the current personality *is* either Craving or Rejection, IF AND ONLY IF MIndfulness is NOT present in the moment of thinking so.. Without Mindfulness, there is no Concontration and no Insight.. Without Insight, we see a "Self" with "a" molded personality, and thus there is a "wish" for changes.. No, wishing for "another" personality is neither Craving or Rejection, IF AND ONLY IF we are mindful in the current moment.. With Mindfulness, we see a temporary Greed/Aversion in the current moment and I call that momentary existence "personality".. ((One personality (?) exists in one moment; therefore, there are many "personalities" for many moments..)) "Personality" is a term referring to something lasting, and thus there must be a "self" for it.. If in a day, I have seen myself having many Greed/Aversion, thanks to Mindfulness weaving in and out.. I name the self-for-a-day a "personality".. Without Mindfulness, there is "Self" and no saint anywhere in me; and that's the fact; so, "I have a personality" is a fact that I should know about with Mindfulness, but didn't.. Whenever I suddenly wake up to my "self" and "my personality", "I" wish for a "better personality".. hehehe.. That means, this wish is my own remind to get back to the task of Mindfulness.. :-)) The "personality", I wish (?) for, is not another different personality, but more of a "realization of changes in the mood".. I'm not good with words, and I am playing with them now.. hehehe.. In short, I have slowly learned not to accept any personality as "mine", and have been working on having nothing called "my personality".. Lacking of words to express myself, I sloppily said in my previous post that I wanted to "improve my own personalitIES" (plural).. :-)) In my normal speech, I notice that I have used similar statement like this one : "You should know it's *my* PERSONALITY.. That's how I do things.. So, you should know what to avoid, and we should work on making things work out best for both of us.." hahaha.. That's only an excuse so I can win my way!! hahaha.. For as long as I insist that I have "a" personality, I have a lot of room to learn and grow spiritually.. Since I realize that "my personality" is the core problem to many issues, I have been paying a lot of attention on catching myself asking for justice in the name of "my personality".. "My personality" is an aspect of my "Ego".. Because of "my personality", I have Lobha, Dosa and Moha.. When Mindfulness and Insight are available, there are changes in thoughts/emotions at a very high rate, and so, there is nothing stable long enough to be called "my personality".. Yet, it is a good idea to keep our eyes open for it.. "My personality" is useful to meditators as an encouragement.. We can use it to measure how well we have been behaving generally.. With that measurement, we know when to give us a pat in the back, and when to encourage ourselves to be more mindful.. "My personality" can remind us to keep up the Mindfulness task and pay more attention to the manifestation of "Self" shown innocently as "personality".. :-)) Let us be mindful of our body and mind.. Let us turn our attention inward.. Let us live each moment fully.. With metta, Theresa. 383 From: amara chay Date: Wed May 31, 2000 5:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Another New book and FREE >Realities and Concepts has been published for free >distribution and when I go to Bangkok in september I >will bring back a few hundred copies. We can then >promote over the web and I will send them off. I was >thinking that if someone like Jack in california could >handle distribution in America, Robert, did you know that Jack and some of his group are coming to Thailand in December (as well as joining the trip to Cambodia)? Also, do you have his address? He just sent me some of the nicest e-mails, so just in case you don't, it's . Anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 384 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 1:14am Subject: about Right Effort (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Hello Robert, << ---- Thanks for looking over the archives and making comments. It gives us something solid to discuss, so please keep it up when you have time. ------- >> Time is the only thing I have now.. My misfortune is your luck... hehehe.. I have been buried in misfortune for the last 12 years.. If Mindfulness is not around, my mind is a goner, too.. hehehe.. My life is about to close another chapter (a divorce), and I can't even find a job to claim my independence.. I have tried to return to my old career as a programming, after 9 years being away from it; I have no luck yet.. I will have to take computer classes and will see from there.. By the way, please don't feel sorry for me about the divorce.. It's a blessing in disguise.. I now have a much lighter load and live peacefully and happily each day, having not much to gain or loose.. By the way, the divorce gives me a long (2- year) "meditation retreat" right in the difficult situation of a layperson.. It has been my chance to practice Mindfulness on Citta and Cetasikas; my Mindfulness ability improves, thanks to a lot of sankharas.. I have had chances to look back at what I did.. I found out for myself that staying single is a blessing, and maybe I will choose to be single for the rest of my life.. (( I write "maybe" because I can't manipulate Kamma.. hahaha )) << ----- Many people these days want nibbana ( and some think they have experienced it)but they don't know what it is. Until one deeply understands citta, cetasika and rupa how could one understand what the ceasing of citta, cetasika and rupa is? -------- >> There is nothing to express about Nibbana, because Ariyas experience it in the state of "no-body-and-no-mind".. Such quietness!! Such claimless!! Nothing to say!! It's not even wonderful like Jhana, but it's a feeling at the moment of letting-go of everything.. WHEN we least expect, WHERE we least expect, Nibbana is.. When and where ?? Right here, right now, in the current moment, in the current Sankhara.. hehehe.. I fully agree with you, that we must understand Citta, Cetasika and Rupa extremely well.. We must see the Endings of them, right at the moment of their dissipation, not sooner, not later, right on time.. That's where we might catch a glimpse of Nibbana.. If we don't understand "our" basic make-ups (the 5 aggregates), we won't be able to recognize Nibbana even when it is everywhere in us.. :-)) Robert, may I ask if your mind would automatically go back to Mindfulness on its own as soon as you stop moving around or stop thinking ?? I hope it does.. If it does, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!.. :-)) << ----- ...immediately vanish. Thus nowhere to run, nowhere to hide from this incessant change. Nibbana is the only refuge because at parinibbana no more rupa no more nama(mental phenomenon). -------- >> <<...immediately vanish. Thus nowhere to run, nowhere to hide from this incessant change.>> It's your own experience, isn't it ??.. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!.. What you described is probably the level of Insight, which fears (?) and disgust (?) the body and the mind.. A little further on, you will experience the level of Insight, which rejects (?) the body and the mind.. These are necessary Insight steps we must take to arrive at the Upekkha Insight Level.. These are progressive Insight levels.. (( A NOTE for Robert and other members of the list who are practicing at these progressive levels of Insight.. I encourage you to put your head down and to nail the task of Mindfulness, one by one, steady and firm, catching the end of one event as clearly as possible, grabbing the beginning of a new event with precision, leaving no room between events no matter how fine events become.. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! .. Please do not look forward or wish for anything.. The best way to balance our mind and to bring Upekkha coming, matured and steady, is to keep Mindfulness constant, steady, continuous, careful, respectful.. If you need a boost, a week of intense retreat should help.. )) Nibbana is not a refuge.. Nibbana is an understanding, which is not based on body nor mind.. The mature state of Upekkha is a pre- requesite for Nibbana, but Nibbana has no Upekkha.. We practice the seven factors of enlightenment, one by one (Upekkha is one of the factors), and we must combine all factors in equal amount among themselves in order to reach the necessary mental quality "for" Nibbana.. The seven factors (thus, the Noble Path) are the cause, and Nibbana is the result; yet, Nibbana doesn't have seven factors, because the Nibbana experience does not rely on body or mind.. << ----- In the Samyutta Nikaya *(Gradual Sayings, Book of Eights, Ch I, par. 6) the Buddha said: ... monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss come... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are.... They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. The Buddha then said that for the enlightened one the opposite is true. The enlighted ones are happy BECAUSE everything is impermanent. They are happy because nothing is taken for self. They delight in anicca, dukkha, and anatta whereas the normal person, not seeing these fundamental truths, tries to resist them. -------- >> Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Impermanence is Dukkha for the yet-to-be-enlightened individuals.. Impermanence is a blessing for the enlightened Ariyas.. The knowledge ( the experience ) without judgment is the different views between Ariyas and the yet-to-be-enlightened individuals.. << ----- We are not enlightened, thus we still resist. For me when I see this process, of wanting things to be different, it is warning signal, a flashing light. A reminder that at these moments there is no understanding, no awareness, and a reminder that there is still much to be done. In some ways these moments are less of a problem (on the path) because they come with unpleasant feeling - they are obvious. It is the subtle pleasant feelings that one can get tricked by - we can be led by them and think that we are practising correctly when we are just chasing feeling. -------- >> <>!! Great reminder!! I, too, must use the subtle pleasant/unpleasant feelings to help me see my attachments right when they appear.. << ----- And it is great that you realize that effort can be right or wrong. . . . It is all too easy to mistake subtle desire for sati. Panna, wisdom, and sati, are always associated with alobha, detachment. But effort can be, and is most of the time, associated with lobha, desire. The right effort of the eightfold path is not easy to know. Now your words make me consider the Dhamma. I can't help it: effort is there, but with no desire to have it, it arises because there are the right conditions. -------- >> R: Panna, wisdom, and sati, are always associated with alobha, detachment. But effort can be, and is most of the time, associated with lobha, desire. T: Sati *is* the way to detach.. Please try to perfect the task of Mindfulness.. I hope the above NOTE help stress some good characteristics of a useful Mindfulness.. Trying to SIMPLY KNOW the reality in the current moment is Right Effort.. :-)) Contemplate and know, from moment to moment; that's Right Effort.. Trying to get rid of what we have in the current moment is NOT Right Effort, but it is Dosa.. Trying (wishing) for something which we don't have in the current moment is NOT Right Effort, but it is Lobha.. With metta, Theresa. 385 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 1:31am Subject: Re: Dead friend Hello Jonothan, << ----- The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to know these tendencies more clearly. -------- >> It gets better with practice.. I mentally assume my death, the extreme and slow pain which is painful enough to kill a strong/healthy body, the decay of my body, the disappearance of so- called "I", and the knowledge.. The more I remember those Truths, the more I can just live, and the more I can accept loosing anything and anyone I have.. After 100 years from right now, where are we, even the newborn being born today ??.. Thinking like that helps me detach in the current moment.. If I have dead a long time ago, how do "I" want my two sons to be and to have in the next 50-70-80 years ??.. They are 11 and 16 years old.. I believe that I can help them by encouraging them to look at the world with Mindfulness.. I teach them Mindfulness, Cause/Effect, etc. in layman terms, with a hope that these concepts are the seeds of Dhamma in them.. When the right conditions and right time come, these seeds will grow, so I believe.. I remind them : "Remember, the inner peace and happiness of others and yours are the most important thing.." and I pray.. :-)) With metta, Theresa. 386 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 3:00am Subject: About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Hello Mike, Your message was wonderful.. I would like to add some comments.. << ----- Quiet places can be ideal ... because they support a calming of the mind... ...the direct experience of realities through skillful means, even in the midst of a busy life, CAN lead to awakening if one has the proper accumulations to support it, the role of meditation in developing Right Concentration as a necessary path factor cannot be minimized. -------- >> Practicing and "achieving" exactly as you said will make us believers of Buddha's Dhamma.. :-)) By practice, I know two types of Concentration : (1) the "big" Concentration applied in Samadhi .. Let's refer to it as "Big-C" in this message.. (2) the "small" Concentration used in Vipassana .. I have heard other terms like "Momentary Concentration" or "Near Concentration".. Let's refer to it as the "small-C" in this message.. I am never sure of the terms, but I just know how to ease my mind toward Concentration and how to apply it.. Concentration is very important in the three steps : Morality - Concentration - Insight.. In my own practice, I notice that the strong the Big-C gained from the Samadhi practice helps me gain easier and faster the small-C during Vipassana practice, and thus, I can keep Vipassana Mindfulness going continuously for a longer period of time.. Yet, I can use the small-C alone to strengthen the small-C without the need to switch over to practicing Samadhi for more big-C.. You referred to "awakening".. I guess you stress the development of Insight.. For me, the small-C is directly linked to and helps develop Insight.. If we have the small-C steady, we can keep Mindfulness going and developing Insight in any situation. ((..While living.. During our normal life.. Even in stressful situations.. When our mind screams for help, wants to give up everything and quit..)) For me, the big-C, which is useful to help gain and keep the small-C during Vipassana/Insight, does not contribute directly to the development and growth of Insight.. For instance, I entered Jhana (or whatever that wonderful state is).. I can choose to expand it to cover the universe or infinity (or whatever that is).. I can choose to expand my consciousness to cover the universe or infinity.. I can also choose to shut all and dark all, and that's all to it.. These choices give me whatever concepts I choose to have, and so, it seems to me that they are "permanent" until I quit Jhana.. However, at this time, if I were to step back a little by reducing the big-C to a small-C while keeping the Jhana state, then I gain Insight very quickly, and the Jhana state becomes the object of Mindfulness, and Insight dissects it as if Insight would dissect the five aggregates in the pure Vipassana practice.. When Insight dissects the Jhana state, I can changes/Impermanence of the mind and body in order to produce Jhana, and also, Dukkha and Anatta.. For instance, I practice Vipassana in General Practice.. Eating, sitting, typing, walking, leaning, standing up, thinking, emotions, sensations, etc.. are my objects of mindfulness.. Anything I have in the current moment *is* my object of mindfulness.. Therefore, I see changes/Impermanence, and so, Dukkha and Anatta.. As long as we have Insight and experience the three Lakkhanas, we are walking the Noble Path.. << ---- One cannot "think" oneself into an insight. Yet listening to the Dhamma, and contemplating it deeply, will provide supporting CONDITIONS for the arising of knowledge and vision - not as a cognitive experience, but as a true understanding (a non-conceptual knowing) from the direct experience of the dhammas. One must move from a cognitive reflection on the teachings to the *direct experience* of the teachings - a direct seeing of anicca, dukkha and anatta, through penetrating inquiry (appropriate attention) into the stress, the origin of stress, the cessation of stress, and the path leading to the cessation of stress in each moment of one's experience. ------- >> Beautifully and clearly put !! "CONDITIONS".. Kamma.. that's our ruler.. :-)) We don't control our meditation, but we are in it.. Anatta.. :-)) Let us relax and be mindful.. :-)) Moment by moment, we walk the Noble Path.. We must experience the three Lakkhanas in order to go toward Nibbana.. :-)) <<---- I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is ONLY possible through sitting and walking meditation in quiet seclusion. But in my own experience, such conditions seem to be the most supportive of the arising of Right Concentration. Of course, one must endeavor to apply the practice of listening, considering, and directly experiencing realities whenever possible in daily life, through satipatthana, for maximum effect. I don't mean to minimize the importance of this aspect of one's practice. But one must not neglect meditation, either. For it provides supporting conditions that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification (visuddhi) that lead to awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html ------- >> Only seven STAGES ?? There are about 14 or 19 LEVELS of Insight.. I don't have the Insight Levels memorized, and I don't recall the exact numbers of Insight Levels.. Venerable Mahasi listed them in his books, somewhere.. Either STAGES or LEVELS, let us move forward with Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight.. :-)) Have you thought of the term "Living Meditation" ?? Living with Mindfulness.. :-)) Mindfulness is life, Life is mindfulness.. Oh well, that's my goal.. :-)) We can't be a part-time Arahant, can we ?? hehehehehe.. << ---- Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be developed in tandem. I am aware of the fear of some that they will get caught up in the pleasures of the jhanas and not develop vipassana. But a degree of calm and tranquility is necessary to steady the mind, to make it "soft and receptive to insight". See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-170.html Another passage suggests that if samatha precedes vipassana - or vipassana precedes samatha - one's practice is in a state of imbalance and needs to be rectified. See, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-94.html. ------- >> We should not fear Jhana or Samadhi.. :-)) If someone prefers to enjoy the pleasure of Jhana and does not want to move further on the Noble Path, we should respect his/her wish.. We should uphold Right Speech.. We should not push others to walk further down the Noble Path as we like to do.. Whenever their Kamma and Paramitta are just right, they will continue their Noble Path.. I guess most meditators have heard a lot of praises for Nibbana; their listening will become a future condition for them to want to walk further WHENEVER that time will come.. Actually, we should be happy for those meditators who have reached Jhana and chosen to stay there, because they are not suffering in the moment of Jhana.. For their happiness, we should be happy with them.. :-)) I heard someone has enjoyed the Jhana state, off and on, for about 30 years, and recently got "unsettled" because that state would not quit and he needed to come back to it to feel better.. That's his own taste of suffering through Jhana, because he started to develop Insight.. You see, it's a natural thing for all beings to move along to Nibbana, sooner or later.. :-)) Vipassana ?? Is it the task of developing Insight ?? If it is so, there is nothing for us to fear, because Insight is the knowledge which cuts through everything.. Insight is light, while Moha/avijja (spelling) is darkness.. When we have Insight, there is nothing called darkness.. All we need to do is to relax our body and mind, while keeping Mindfulness constant and continuous.. As Vipassana practitioners, we should be aware of ourselves from moment to moment and apply the seven factors of enlightenment accordingly.. Analogy : when drive a car "straight" down a road, we must pay attention to the road and slightly move the wheel so that the car will hug the curve or go straight on time; we can't drive straight even if we go straight down the road, but we must watch the road.. So, we watch ourselves with Mindfulness.. :-)) Samadhi and Vipassana are both "tools" to help us walk the Noble Path.. Let us encourage each of us to walk.. Let us not worry much about falling off the cliff, because there are no cliff and no side to the Noble Path.. hehehe.. When we see, we note : "seeing, seeing,.." When we sit, we note : "sitting, sitting,.." When we walk, we note : "walking, walking,.." When we Jhana, we note : "jhana, jhana,.." With metta, Theresa. 387 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 3:10am Subject: Re: Dosa as a conditioned reality Hello Jonothan, << ---- I had heard many times that dosa/aversion arises because of our attachments, expectations etc. But I had not fully appreciated, until reading it in 'Cetasikas' recently, that dosa can only arise in the sensuous planes of existence ie where there is clinging to sense objects. So if there are no conditions for clinging to sense objects, no conditions for dosa also. I find that understanding this, if only at an intellectual level, is helpful in understanding dosa as simply a conditioned reality. ------- >> There is Dosa, because there is something you wish for but can not get it.. Meaning, there is a minute Lobha behind your Dosa.. There is Lobha, because there is something you don't like and then you don't have it.. Meaning, there is a minute Dosa behind your Lobha.. We are angry, because there is something we want but can't have.. We are happy, because there is something we fear and are lucky not to have it.. The minute wish/fear is the Second Noble Truth.. It's very small, simple and human.. For instance: I want to be happy, secure, peaceful, and not being hurt.. When there is a car running a red light and toward my car, I instantly think of accident and death, my body reacts so, and my mind gets worried/angry/fear (Dosa).. However, when I am fully aware of my living, from moment to moment, I will realize of each thought crossing my mind, live each fully, and acknowledge it, then there is no fear/anger/Dosa when the other car is coming toward me, and there will not be any happy feeling afterward when I escape the accident.. We really have to watch out for our "peace" talk.. hehehehe... With metta, Theresa. 388 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 8:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] About Concentration (was: re: abhidhamma in daily life) Dear Theresa, I want to make some detailed comments about the nature of sati in samattha and in vipassana but I would appreciate if you could answer these questions. I like your lenghthy comments as the details help us understand each other. 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". 3.Please describe in detail how you "have Insight and experience the three > Lakkhanas," and how you "see changes/Impermanence, and so, Dukkha and Anatta.". 4. What is sati awre of when it has "mindfulness going continuously" Robert > > By practice, I know two types of Concentration : > (1) the "big" Concentration applied in Samadhi .. > Let's refer to it > as "Big-C" in this message.. > (2) the "small" Concentration used in Vipassana .. I > have heard other > terms like "Momentary Concentration" or "Near > Concentration".. Let's > refer to it as the "small-C" in this message.. > > I am never sure of the terms, but I just know how to > ease my mind > toward Concentration and how to apply it.. > Concentration is very > important in the three steps : Morality - > Concentration - Insight.. > > In my own practice, I notice that the strong the > Big-C gained from > the Samadhi practice helps me gain easier and faster > the small-C > during Vipassana practice, and thus, I can keep > Vipassana Mindfulness > going continuously for a longer period of time.. > Yet, I can use the > small-C alone to strengthen the small-C without the > need to switch > over to practicing Samadhi for more big-C.. > > You referred to "awakening".. > I guess you stress the development of Insight.. > > For me, the small-C is directly linked to and helps > develop Insight.. > If we have the small-C steady, we can keep > Mindfulness going and > developing Insight in any situation. ((..While > living.. During our > normal life.. Even in stressful situations.. When > our mind screams > for help, wants to give up everything and quit..)) > For me, the big-C, > which is useful to help gain and keep the small-C > during > Vipassana/Insight, does not contribute directly to > the development > and growth of Insight.. > > For instance, I entered Jhana (or whatever that > wonderful state is).. > I can choose to expand it to cover the universe or > infinity (or > whatever that is).. I can choose to expand my > consciousness to cover > the universe or infinity.. I can also choose to shut > all and dark > all, and that's all to it.. These choices give me > whatever concepts I > choose to have, and so, it seems to me that they are > "permanent" > until I quit Jhana.. However, at this time, if I > were to step back a > little by reducing the big-C to a small-C while > keeping the Jhana > state, then I gain Insight very quickly, and the > Jhana state becomes > the object of Mindfulness, and Insight dissects it > as if Insight > would dissect the five aggregates in the pure > Vipassana practice.. > When Insight dissects the Jhana state, I can > changes/Impermanence of > the mind and body in order to produce Jhana, and > also, Dukkha and > Anatta.. > > For instance, I practice Vipassana in General > Practice.. Eating, > sitting, typing, walking, leaning, standing up, > thinking, emotions, > sensations, etc.. are my objects of mindfulness.. > Anything I have in > the current moment *is* my object of mindfulness.. > .. > > .. > > << ---- > One cannot "think" oneself into an insight. Yet > listening to the > Dhamma, and contemplating it deeply, will provide > supporting > CONDITIONS for the arising of knowledge and vision - > not as a > cognitive experience, but as a true understanding (a > non-conceptual > knowing) from the direct experience of the dhammas. > One must move > from a cognitive reflection on the teachings to the > *direct > experience* of the teachings - a direct seeing of > anicca, dukkha and > anatta, through penetrating inquiry (appropriate > attention) into the > stress, the origin of stress, the cessation of > stress, and the path > leading to the cessation of stress in each moment of > one's experience. > ------- >> > > Beautifully and clearly put !! > > "CONDITIONS".. Kamma.. that's our ruler.. :-)) > We don't control our meditation, but we are in it.. > Anatta.. :-)) > Let us relax and be mindful.. :-)) > Moment by moment, we walk the Noble Path.. > We must experience the three Lakkhanas in order to > go toward > Nibbana.. :-)) > > <<---- > I don't mean to imply that Right Concentration is > ONLY possible > through sitting and walking meditation in quiet > seclusion. But in my > own experience, such conditions seem to be the most > supportive of the > arising of Right Concentration. Of course, one must > endeavor to > apply the practice of listening, considering, and > directly > experiencing realities whenever possible in daily > life, through > satipatthana, for maximum effect. I don't mean to > minimize the > importance of this aspect of one's practice. But > one must not > neglect meditation, either. For it provides > supporting conditions > that will perfect the Seven Stages of Purification > (visuddhi) that > lead to awakening. See, "The Progress of Insight" > by Ven. Mahasi > Sayadaw at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/progress.html > ------- >> > > Only seven STAGES ?? There are about 14 or 19 > LEVELS of Insight.. I > don't have the Insight Levels memorized, and I don't > recall the exact > numbers of Insight Levels.. Venerable Mahasi listed > them in his > books, somewhere.. Either STAGES or LEVELS, let us > move forward with > Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight.. :-)) > > Have you thought of the term "Living Meditation" ?? > Living with Mindfulness.. :-)) > Mindfulness is life, Life is mindfulness.. > Oh well, that's my goal.. :-)) > We can't be a part-time Arahant, can we ?? > hehehehehe.. > > << ---- > Several Suttas suggest that samatha and vipassana be > developed in > tandem. I am aware of the fear of some that they > will get caught up > in the pleasures of the jhanas and not develop > vipassana. But a > degree of calm and tranquility is necessary to > steady the mind, to > make it "soft and receptive to insight". > === message truncated === 389 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 3:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend >I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother >(Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being >taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of enlightenment >where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, >amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of heart". > >The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be >disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects >our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to >know these tendencies more clearly. > >Like Robert, i find the death of someone I know a condition for reflection >about Dhamma generally, and a reminder of the wisdom of not putting off the >study of the present reality. > >Jonothan Jonothan, As another person prone to every accumulated kilesa, I must confess my own 'obituary syndrome' when someone's death makes me forget any negative memories about them. I realize of course that my memory is one of the worst where people are concerned, but I find that I have to think really hard to remember anything wrong with a dead friend. My father was not the best of family men, although he was a sort of genius and had a very successful career; but since he passed away I find that I even make excuses for the more obvious faults: 'at least he didn't...' etc. I really hate to hear anything bad said about anyone not there to defend themselves under any circumstances. (I know, dosa!) The same with good friends. It must be my progressive accumulation of lobha, I generally remember the better parts and find it difficult to dig up unpleasantness, another of the enumerable realities to be studied there! I really believe that if he knows about our work somehow, wherever he is, he would be very pleased and enthusiastic about our efforts in the service of the Buddha's teachings in these hi-tech times! Amara P.S. I think your writings counterpoints those of Theresa's beautifully, like a wide, deep, slow moving river next to a wild roller coaster ride! =^_^= 390 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 0:12pm Subject: Re: About Concentration Hello Robert, << ---- I want to make some detailed comments about the nature of sati in samattha and in vipassana but I would appreciate if you could answer these questions. I like your lenghthy comments as the details help us understand each other. ------- >> I am more than happy to answer your questions, but please remember that my writings are based on a lot of my own experience and practice.. Everybody has a different Kamma, and so, each of us needs guidance of a wise teacher.. I'm a dhamma friend and not a teacher.. I look forward to your comments to help me grow spiritually.. To answer your questions, I will repeat a lot of things you may have heard an uncountable number of times, and may have everything memorized with good terminology, too.. If I refer to something new and different that what you have learned, that something is questionable and not trustable.. I guess that, after you read my answers, you will say : "Is that all to it?? I already know that and more.." :-)) Q: 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? A: It depends on the ability of each person at different time.. Our meditation ability changes, but with practice, it generally improves over time.. At my fastest rate, it was very-very-very fast.. I don't know exactly how many mindfulness moment passes in the time of a blink.. My slowest rate, right now, could be once a hour or so, and that means I forget to be mindful for that long.. hehehe.. Q: 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". A: By exerting steady and continuous effort.. (1) exert enough Right Effort to see the event (ie, whatever you are mindful in the current moment) clearly and precisely, (2) exert enough Right Effort to see the Beginning of the even precisely at the beginning, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time, (3) exert enough Right Effort to see the entire event from the Beginning to the End of it, (4) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the event, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time at the very end of it, (5) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the current event and the Beginning of the next event.. If you keep your Right Effort constant like that, your Mindfulness will be continuous.. Therefore, in order to keep mindfulness going continuously, we must be mindful with ONE current moment at a time.. See, nothing new !! :-)) Q: (3a).Please describe in detail how you "have Insight and experience the three Lakkhanas," A: I vaguely recall that I wrote something on seeing Lakkhanas.. Was it for this list or Vipassana list ??.. I usually delete all old messages, and so, Robert, if you have my old message from Vipassana list, please share it this list.. Thank you.. Anyway, I will try a short description (short? how? hehe) of "how" to gain Insight, and "how Insight lead us to experience the three Lakkhanas".. Q: "how" to gain Insight ?? A: We need to keep Mindfulness continuous in order to have Concentration.. When we have Concentration (focusing), we can start (seeing).. Buddha gave us many guidelines to be seen, like : the 5 aggregates, the 7 factors of enlightenment, the 4 foundations of mindfulness, Lobha, Dosa, the 4 viharas, seeing, hearing, Dukkha, Source Dukha, Intention, etc.. Venerables, like Venerable Mahasi, gave many details for us to be mindful of : eating, sitting, walking, etc.. Vipassana does not necessarily keep ONE object of mindfulness, but keeps "MIndfulness continuous".. Vipassana applies the "momentary Concentration" to see (Insight) whatever most prominent to us in the current moment.. Q: (3b).Please describe in detail how you "...experience the three Lakkhanas," .. how you "see changes/Impermanence, and so, Dukkha and Anatta." A: When we keep Mindfulness continuous with "momentary Concentration", while the object of Mindfulness changes, we eventually see changes, thus Impermanence.. When Impermanence is continuous (because Mindfulness and Insight are continuous), Impermanence brings "stress", and thus, we experience Dukkha.. About this time, when we try to keep up as much Mindfulness as we can in order to have an continuous understanding of the changes, we suddenly experience (feel/understand clearly in each moment) that there is nothing called "I", but we see changes.. Changes (Impermanence) becomes oppressive (because we exert Right Effort to keep Mindfulness and Insight continuous), we see Anatta continuously.. As I said, nothing is new, and you probably have heard it to the point of memorizing it.. The point, I try to stress here, is that we MUST keep Mindfulness continuous, and we MUST have Continuous Insight.. Lakkhana is the Dhammas we are looking for as a necessary tool to guide us toward Magga/Phala/Nibbana.. This Lakkhana tool is only useful when we can experience it continuously and directly, without any reasoning.. CONTINUOUS AND DIRECT EXPERIENCE is crucial.. Please understand that we must experience/know Lakkhana by experience, just like we must experience/know Concentration.. Ex: in the moment when we have Concentration, we know we do.. Ex: in the moment when we have Lakkhana, we know we do.. Only direct experience (pure awareness) count.. Q: 4. What is sati awre of when it has "mindfulness going continuously" A: Whatever our PROMINENT experience is in the current moment, we should be mindful of it, and Sati is Mindfulness.. Therefore, in Vipassana, when we keep Mindfulness going continuously, we "see" a series of current moments, moment by moment, with extreme clarity.. Analogy : Taking picture with a camera.. (a) Taking picture is Sati (Mindfulness) (b) Taking ONE frame at a time is like Concentration (one- pointedness).. (c) Obtaining a clear picture is like Insight (seeing clearly).. (d) When we put a series of picture frames together into a series, we have a movie.. This is like "Mindfulness going continuously to see every frame, one by one, at high speed, in order to make out the whole story.." We have seen "self" and everything with a wrong (blurry) view, as if we take pictures while we jump up and down.. When we make a movie out of blurry pictures, we have avijja (spelling? or is it Moha?).. When we use Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight to take clear pictures, we now see for real what everything is and we understand (wake up? enlightened? detached? or whatever we might like to call that experience.. hehehe).. (a) Sati takes pictures, (b) Concentration focuses on one frame at a time, (c) Insight has clear pictures and combines clear pictures into a movie.. This is how Mindfulness, Concentration and Insight work together.. About your question (#4), Mindfulness is still Mindfulness as we learn from day one, even though we might see things more clearly (more details, more subtle) and even though we might see more events per blink.. By the way, the difference between Samadhi and Vipassana as I see is that Samadhi, when I practice, has only ONE object of mindfulness, and in Vipassana, the object of mindfulness changes.. Ex: for Samadhi, I might "meditate" with Light as my object of mindfulness, and eventually spread it out to more corners of the world (geez, my poor terminology !! hehe).. Ex: for Vipassana, I "meditate" to understand the "Self" and the four Noble Truths, and I expand that to include the idea that "everything else changes all the time, like 'me'.." (I run out of terms..hehe).. Let's hope we have communicated.. hehehehe.. With metta, Theresa. P.S.: My son needs to use the computer.. I want to review my message before sending but can't.. I hope you can guess my thoughts.. :-)) 391 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: Dead friend Hello Amara, I hope you don't mind my asking.. What do you mean in your P.S. note.. What you wrote sounds beautiful, but I don't understand what you mean.. My English problem ?? hehehe.. If it's not important, you don't need to explain.. :-)) Which one is the slow moving river ? Which one is the roller coaster ride ? Did I write something not useful but harmful to someone ?? > P.S. I think your writings counterpoints those of Theresa's > beautifully, like a wide, deep, slow moving river next to a wild > roller coaster ride! > =^_^= Theresa. 392 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 11:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend Dear Jonothan, Amara and friends, I also find any reflections on death very helful and sobering. Thus we are reminded to reflect on death many, many times a day..'like fire on our heads' to remind us of precious opportunites to develop kusala of all kinds now. I remember when Kh Sujin's sister lost her husband, Kh Sujin reminded her that he'd been just like a 'wind' blowing in and out of her life....what we grieve for is ourselves, not for the other person. Nanda's mother can be an inspiration to us and yet as you say, we need to be realistic and not afraid of our kilesa. It's better to know them and be honest with ourselves. In the same way, I used to be reminded by Kh Sujin to be 'realistic' and not 'optimistic' or 'pessimistic' when thinking about others. I used to think people were really good at heart and lots of people had lots of understanding. I was not being realistic. I agree w/ Amara that we need to be honest about our cetana, intention, when we speak about others (so often w/ lobha or dosa) but I also agree that it's usually better to reflect on the good qualities of someone who has passed away to avoid misunerstandings for one thing. This is usually more helpful to us too. We all have such complex accumulations and it's so easy to mistakenly take them for something, for a self, for a personality or even many personalities that YOU or I should be mindful of! Best regards Sarah > > >I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother > >(Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being > >taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of >enlightenment > >where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, > >amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of >heart". > > > >The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to >be > >disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply >reflects > >our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to > >know these tendencies more clearly. > > > >Like Robert, i find the death of someone I know a condition for >reflection > >about Dhamma generally, and a reminder of the wisdom of not putting off >the > >study of the present reality. > > > >Jonothan > > >Jonothan, > >As another person prone to every accumulated kilesa, I must confess my own >'obituary syndrome' when someone's death makes me forget any negative >memories about them. I realize of course that my memory is one of the >worst >where people are concerned, but I find that I have to think really hard to >remember anything wrong with a dead friend. My father was not the best of >family men, although he was a sort of genius and had a very successful >career; but since he passed away I find that I even make excuses for the >more obvious faults: 'at least he didn't...' etc. I really hate to hear >anything bad said about anyone not there to defend themselves under any >circumstances. (I know, dosa!) The same with good friends. It must be my >progressive accumulation of lobha, I generally remember the better parts >and >find it difficult to dig up unpleasantness, another of the enumerable >realities to be studied there! > >I really believe that if he knows about our work somehow, wherever he is, >he >would be very pleased and enthusiastic about our efforts in the service of >the Buddha's teachings in these hi-tech times! > >Amara > 393 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 5:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: About Concentration Dear Theresa, You are a really prolific writer! Thanks for answering my questions so honestly and quickly. I reply to only a few points as time is short. ”Q: 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? A: It depends on the ability of each person at different time.. Our meditation ability changes, but with practice, it generally improves over time.. At my fastest rate, it was very-very-very fast.. I don't know exactly how many mindfulness moment passes in the time of a blink.. My slowest rate, right now, could be once a hour or so, and that means I forget to be mindful for that long.. hehehe.”. I asked this question because I wanted to see if you knew that in the time time it takes for a flash of lightning billions of moments of mind have arisen away (as the commentaries explain. This is happening continually whether anyone has awareness or not. Thus it is impossible that "anyone" could observe this rapid change. Yet developed panna and sati of the eightfold path can take some processes and deeply penetrate their nature. “Q: 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". A: By exerting steady and continuous effort.. (1) exert enough Right Effort to see the event (ie, whatever you are mindful in the current moment) clearly and precisely, (2) exert enough Right Effort to see the Beginning of the even precisely at the beginning, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time, (3) exert enough Right Effort to see the entire event from the Beginning to the End of it, (4) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the event, not sooner, not later, but precisely on time at the very end of it, (5) exert enough Right Effort to see the End of the current event and the Beginning of the next event.. If you keep your Right Effort constant like that, your Mindfulness will be continuous.. Therefore, in order to keep mindfulness going continuously, we must be mindful with ONE current moment at a time.. See, nothing new !! :-))” You talk about “seeing the event..precisely at the beginning….the whole event..’ but an event has gone even before we knew it was there. Billions of events have passed in a split second. Until there has been nama-rupa parrichedda nana, the stage of experiencing the difference between nama and rupa it cannot be that a deeper stage can occur. Have you experienced nama-rupa parichedda nana yet? You don’t need to ask a teacher. Now there is seeing and color and the sensitive rupa in the eyes. Seeing is nama, the other 2 are rupa. The rupas are also arising and passing away at astronomical speed. Is the difference between seeing and color clearly seen? Or is it a little confused, mixed up? The color touches the rupa which is eyebase and that special type of consciousness which is seeing also arise there – Are they really distinguished and are the brief moments of sati contacting them understood as not mine? A: When we keep Mindfulness continuous with "momentary Concentration", while the object of Mindfulness changes, we eventually see changes, thus Impermanence.. When Impermanence is continuous (because Mindfulness and Insight are continuous), Impermanence brings "stress", and thus, we experience Dukkha.. About this time, when we try to keep up as much Mindfulness as we can in order to have an continuous understanding of the changes, we suddenly experience (feel/understand clearly in each moment) that there is nothing called "I", but we see changes.. Changes (Impermanence) becomes oppressive (because we exert Right Effort to keep Mindfulness and Insight continuous), we see Anatta continuously.. The whole idea of continuous mindfulness comes from a deep-seated belief in self. The processes of cittas are alternating rapidly, acting under complex conditions. Uncontrollable, including sati. “we suddenly feel that that there is nothing called “I’” ; This is just thinking about anatta, it is not the direct experience. I will write more about sati later as time allows. Robert 394 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Dead friend >I hope you don't mind my asking.. What do you mean in your P.S. >note.. What you wrote sounds beautiful, but I don't understand what >you mean.. My English problem ?? hehehe.. If it's not important, you >don't need to explain.. :-)) > >Which one is the slow moving river ? >Which one is the roller coaster ride ? >Did I write something not useful but harmful to someone ?? > > > P.S. I think your writings counterpoints those of Theresa's > > beautifully, like a wide, deep, slow moving river next to a wild > > roller coaster ride! > > =^_^= > >Theresa. Theresa, It just means I am enjoying the messages immensely and look forward to more!!! I don't think anyone here finds your English a problem, in fact it's rather fun to read, although the content sometimes leaves one breathless- hence the emotional roller coaster allusion- at least to me. In a way you seem to take the ups and downs so well, as a part of life- but what I really will really enjoy is the discussion you will be having with Robert (another wonderful writer), about views on the dhamma, so please continue, for all our sakes! Amara 395 From: amara chay Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 1:08pm Subject: DSSF English discussion Dear friends in the dhamma, I would like to make a suggestion for those attending the English discussion at the DSSF this Saturday afternoon: in addition to preparing any questions you might have for Khun Sujin, could you please read or look through her book 'Summary' to see if you would like her to explain anything? Perhaps at least the first chapter, so we will have something 'meaty' that not all 'experts' can explain to disect. And anyone not attending, with any questions for her, could please post them here at DSDG and I will print them out for her, Amara 396 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: About Concentration Hello Robert, To make our discussion more beneficial to both of us and other members of the list, may I suggest that all of us practice, or at least try to practice, what we discuss.. I vaguely recall that Buddha taught us that practicing is believing in the Dhamma He taught.. Is that right ??.. I am more than happy to answer questions which come about because something I wrote can not be applied practically to someone's practice.. Questions like that will help me greatly, because they will point to me areas I thought I knew but are blind to.. << ----- Q: 1.How fast are the moments of mind and matter arising and falling away? I asked this question because I wanted to see if you knew that in the time time it takes for a flash of lightning billions of moments of mind have arisen away (as the commentaries explain. This is happening > continually whether anyone has awareness or not. Thus it is impossible that "anyone" could observe this rapid change. Yet developed panna and sati of the eightfold path can take some processes and deeply penetrate their nature. -------- >> Insight must be developed gradually.. I guess you discuss about the maximum possibility of Insight (and speed of Insight).. My answer based on how far my progress of Insight is.. Analogy : reading a book.. First, we read the cover : the title (and other display on the front) and more details (and other parts on the back).. Next, we read the first few pages : Introduction, About the Author, Table of Contents, Table of Illustrations.. Next, we read the details of the Table of Contents, and digest them (well, sort of).. Next, we read the first chapter, starting with its introduction and trying to grab the general topic of that chapter, and then reading the rest of the chapter (especially, if the book is a technical book).. Next, we repeat the same process of reading the other chapters one by one.. While reading the chapters, we might flip back many times to the previous chapter, to the Table of Contents, to the Table of Index, to the cover etc.. Same as reading the book, we develop Insight about our "Self".. We slowly and gradually understand "Self" in stages or levels (terms ?).. A person, who can identify only two things, Nama and Rupa (or mind and body), during a Sitting Meditation by exerting a lot of Right Effort, has seen the FIRST LEVEL OF INSIGHT about the "Self".. A person, who is entering Magga/Phala/Nibbana and has Insight going at an extremely fast rate and can see a lot of Dhamma, has seen the same "Self" with more details and understanding.. That's how we must appreciate Insight and its development.. I guess what you described is the maximum speed of the mind, which, I purely guess, Arahants can do.. Therefore, the claim that << Thus it is impossible that "anyone" could observe this rapid change. >> should not be a concern (hindrance ?) to Vipassana meditators.. We, meditators, can develop and increase Insight with practice and time.. Our maximum ability is not our concern, but is the work of our collective and still- collecting Paramitta (spelling?) and our Kamma.. Many Buddhist friends of mine, who come from non-Theravada schools, strongly believe that we, humans, are unable to develop something wonderful called "Panna" (which I prefer to call it "Insight" for the fact that it helps me "see" the reality in the current moment).. They place Insight on an unreachable pedestal by referring to it as "Panna", some magical power, unreachable to human beings.. You wrote : << Yet developed panna and sati of the eightfold path can take some processes and deeply penetrate their nature.>> Sati is Sati, and it is forever Sati.. We learn Sati, practice it, and will practice the same thing as long as we continue walking the Noble Path.. Sati will never "improve" or "change" into anything more wonderful than it, Sati.. Mindfulness.. Pure Awareness.. What we see in the current moment is Insight.. Insight changes as we grow spiritually.. The spectrum of Insight is extremely wide.. On one end is the Nama-Rupa Insight level, the first level of Insight.. I can't imagine the other extreme or Buddha's mind, and Buddha warned us not to think about His mind.. It is Insight, which penenatres the nature of "Self" and all processes of Mind and Body.. YOu wrote : <<... in the time time it takes for a flash of lightning billions of moments of mind have arisen away (as the commentaries explain. This is happening continually whether anyone has awareness or not... >> As I heard and read, only Arahants can break loose from Avijja.. You referred to that "billions of moments of mind", and I guess that your reference points to Arahant's Mindfulness ability.. May I suggest that we simply put the topics beyond our practice level to a side, because they will not benefit us at this time.. << ----- Q: 2.Please describe in detail how you "keep mindfulness going continuously". You talk about "seeing the event..precisely at the beginning….the whole event..' but an event has gone even before we knew it was there. Billions of events have passed in a split second. -------- >> My suggestion stressed Right Effort and Right Mindfulness, in such a way to help us increase Concentration and gain Insight almost immediately, or in few Mindfulness, or in few minutes, or within one Sitting session, or within one day.. It would work for all of us, novices or progressive practitioners.. Please try-try-try and try to keep your Mindfulness going for "seeing the event..precisely at the beginning….the whole event..'".. This is very important.. With this much Effort and Mindfulness, your walking is very fast forward.. Best of luck and, most of all, best of patience to all of us.. :-)) You wrote << Until there has been nama-rupa parrichedda nana, the stage of experiencing the difference between nama and rupa it cannot be that a deeper stage can occur. >> I don't quite understand what you wrote.. If we apply Mindfulness and Effort as I suggested, we can reach the first level of Insight in no time.. The "nama-rupa parrichedda nana" is what I referred to by the "first level of Insight", because it is the first level of insight.. It's like reading the cover, both front and back, of the book.. Before this Insight, we saw "Me" (Self) and we believe that there is "me" living.. When we have this Insight, we are then certain that there is "Self-less" because there are two parts, body and mind, working separately.. This first level of Insight is the first glimpse to "Anatta".. :-)) << ----- Have you experienced nama-rupa parichedda nana yet? -------- >> Yes, and many more levels of Insight.. Where do I get information to write on long messages (because I don't know how to write them short.. hahaha) if I didn't experience them myself.. My book knowledge is a mess, and my terminology is patchy and poor.. You can say that I am a progressive meditator.. hehehe.. << ----- You don't need to ask a teacher. Now there is seeing and color and the sensitive rupa in the eyes. Seeing is nama, the other 2 are rupa. The rupas are also arising and passing away at astronomical speed. Is the difference between seeing and color clearly seen? Or is it a little confused, mixed up? The color touches the rupa which is eyebase and that special type of consciousness which is seeing also arise there – Are they really distinguished and are the brief moments of sati contacting them understood as not mine? -------- >> Robert, you successfully confused me.. hahaha.. It seems that your discussion mixed the first level of Insight with the "ultamax" (term I learned from my 11-year-old son) level of Insight of Arahants.. In my humble (and I mean "HUMBLE") practice compared to Arahants', I can not see most Insight described in Abhidhamma, but I successfully achieved few humble ones.. (( I prefer to refrain from sharing my progress, because it does not benefit anyone, even me, but might be a condition for our Dosa/Lobha sankharas to arise.. )) About seeing, my Insight, at its best, shows this much : (1) Consciousness is at the eyes (2) Intention to see what information the eyes give (3) A lot of mumbling (ie, thinking, processing, but jumping about on different topics in my mind) (4) recognizing what is seen (5) from here on, everything is "uncontrollable", meaning, my Insight is not strong enough to cut through.. I have emotions, valueing, judgment, planning, thinking, likes/dislikes, etc.. Everything is in my mind, and nothing has to do directly with the object beeing seen.. At this time, the best I could do is exerting Mindfulness to catch "thinking" and end it, then catch an emotion and end it, and catch and end, catch and end, etc. until my mind suddenly switches over to another topic or another consciousness.. This is how much I know, and nothing more on seeing, hearing, etc.. Again, Sati is Sati; Insight understands.. << ----- The whole idea of continuous mindfulness comes from a deep-seated belief in self. The processes of cittas are alternating rapidly, acting under complex conditions. Uncontrollable, including sati. -------- >> Very true.. We will continue to have "Self" and stuck with it totally or in some degree until the final liberation of Arahantship.. Where there is "Self", there is "continuous".. The more Insight we have, the lesser the strength of "Self".. In the current moment, if we have Insight, we are detached in some degree from the "Self".. Vipassana meditators walk the Noble Path, gradually increase the strength of the Light (Insight), and gradually sees more.. "Self" is like total darkness of the world, and the first Insight level is like the light on a small flashlight.. The light on the small flashlight can not shine the world, but it allows us to see enough to walk safely.. If someone mentions that the world is much bigger than we can see with the flashlight, should we consider that our sight is incomplete, fake or wrong ?? Should we pause our Effort or abandon our practice or doubt our seeing altogether, because someone else mentions about things we are yet to see ?? We must be patient and trust our Insight of the current moment.. For each level of Insight, for each increasing strength of light, we will see more.. With the first level of Insight, we might see enough to step, and later on, we might see an entire street, then the sidewalks, then houses, then cities, etc... Please do not worry about "Self" and what it is.. We should focus on what we know and experience.. We should feel encouraged to walk further on the Noble Path, because we can see that there is "No Self" (one combined identity called "I") but two separate entities (body and mind; rupa and nama) working side by side and together.. What Arahants or Buddha see does not relate to our "Self", but their success is an encouragement to us that : "If we keep up with the practice of Mindfulness, we will see more and more and more, and the more we see and understand, the less suffering we have.." Let us keep Mindfulness continuous as much as we can.. With metta, Theresa. 397 From: Theresa Date: Thu Jun 1, 2000 11:53pm Subject: I'm confused.. :-)) Hello Amara, << ---- It just means I am enjoying the messages immensely and look forward to more!!! I don't think anyone here finds your English a problem, in fact it's rather fun to read, ... ------- >> so far so good... << ---- ... although the content sometimes leaves one breathless- hence the emotional roller coaster allusion- at least to me. ------- >> Oooops!! Why do you have the emotional roller coaster ?? Every time I hear or read something on Dhamma from anyone but don't understand or am confused, I simply sit down, cross my legs, and put what I heard to work.. After a while, I know for certain and by experience whether or not what I heard works for me, or whether or not the topic is simply over my head, or whether or not it's useful to me.. I guess if you test what I wrote by your own practice, you would not have any "emotional roller coaster allusion" at all.. Is that right ?? << ----- In a way you seem to take the ups and downs so well, as a part of life- -------- >> To walk the Noble Path, we must experience and understand Dukkha in many forms at many levels.. Whenever we understand Dukkha (a set of defilements), we can then let go of the defilements and thus, no longer experience the defilement-related Dukkha.. Experiencing and Understanding is "Insight".. :-)) << ----- but what I really will really enjoy is the discussion you will be having with Robert (another wonderful writer), about views on the dhamma, so please continue, for all our sakes! -------- >> In my opinion, Robert is a very good writer.. I can only write what I know, and I have a challenging time explaining my practice and experience.. Whenever I don't know, I will share that I don't know.. The possible benefits of dhamma friends on this list are the reasons for me to write and post my messages.. I do hope someone will find my writings useful in some way to his/her practice.. With metta, Theresa. 398 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 1:41am Subject: Re: I'm confused.. :-)) > Oooops!! Why do you have the emotional roller coaster ?? > Every time I hear or read something on Dhamma from anyone but don't > understand or am confused, I simply sit down, cross my legs, and put > what I heard to work.. After a while, I know for certain and by > experience whether or not what I heard works for me, or whether or > not the topic is simply over my head, or whether or not it's useful > to me.. I guess if you test what I wrote by your own practice, you > would not have any "emotional roller coaster allusion" at all.. Is > that right ?? Theresa, My allusion was not about your writings about the dhamma, or the methods you write about, but I just can't help, with my own accumulations of kilesa, help having certain emotions when you write: Time is the only thing I have now.. My misfortune is your luck... hehehe.. I have been buried in misfortune for the last 12 years.. If Mindfulness is not around, my mind is a goner, too.. hehehe.. My life is about to close another chapter (a divorce), and I can't even find a job to claim my independence.. I have tried to return to my old career as a programming, after 9 years being away from it; I have no luck yet.. I will have to take computer classes and will see from there.. By the way, please don't feel sorry for me about the divorce.. It's a blessing in disguise.. I now have a much lighter load and live peacefully and happily each day, having not much to gain or loose.. Of course this is just what appears through the eyes, but the mind connotes such concepts to them that it appears as stories and events, good and bad, from friends and new friends, when in fact they are just colors and forms. Our attachments to concepts are overpowering indeed, which is why sati is so vital in the understanding of things as they really are, it puts things in the proper perspective so sharply, as well as accumulate knowledge for future enlightenment. It is a wonder indeed that anything can be the object of sati, whether dead friends or new ones or the concepts of all the world, as well as what appears through the sense doors. Thoughts do rule our lives, and the vast majority are not even conscious of this. All this is measuring my accumulations and presenting a multitude of things to study! To think that the Buddha taught us this unique path of vipassana, since before his time there were already samatha as well as dana and sila, leaves me in ever increasing awe of his omniscience. Amara 399 From: Theresa Date: Fri Jun 2, 2000 7:39am Subject: It's quite all right.. :-)) Hello Amara and all, I thank you, Amara, for clarify my confusion.. :-)) << ----- ... Our attachments to concepts are overpowering indeed, which is why sati is so vital in the understanding of things as they really are, it puts things in the proper perspective so sharply, as well as accumulate knowledge for future enlightenment. . . . Thoughts do rule our lives. . . All this is measuring my accumulations and presenting a multitude of things to study! . . . -------- >> Wow !!! :-)) Please allow me to share with you some things (lessons ?) I have gathered from my own suffering and my own mistakes.. They are like little attitudes or vows to help increase my inner strength.. I share because I hope that you can add or subtract some from your own set of attitudes and vows so that it works best for you.. Whatever works for me might not work for others.. Eucalyptus is healthy and stable diet for Koala bears but poison to us.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. If certain attitudes seem to be worthless, meaningless and useless to you, please simply ignore them as such.. :-)) Please share your lessons with me and others, because we don't have time to make all mistakes ourselves.. hehehe.. I have tons of "attitudes" about life, and my list changes as I walk the Noble Path further with Mindfulness.. Here are some : (1) I vow to change me, not the world. (2) I vow to find out the core reasons which allow "me" to see, feel and view things different from others.. This reason, as I believe, is the cause of all my suffering (( Suffering is what I can "feel" as emotions, something humanly natural )).. Emotions/suffering, as I believe, is only temporary and changeable states of my life or my health or my mind or my body.. If I am with it, things rung smooth; if not, I'm not ok (suffering).. :-)) [[ I have this vow, because I notice that when I cried miserably under the sun, there was a child running about on the same lawn laughing where I was, and there was an old person strolling on with mixed possible emotions : (a) appreciating the cheer and the health of the child, (b) feeling pity for the crying person (me) with some unknown (silly? silly because it's unknown to him/her) reason, and (c) working hard and carefully which each step he/she took to make sure that the balance was there for the new step.. Under the same conditions, the sun and the lawn, people can have different emotions.. This fact triggered a vow that I can have a different emotion.. In short, the change of emotion has nothing to do with anything else.. I love this discovery.. hehehe..]] (3) I vow that I will keep Mindfulness going as continuous as I can, thus I must be aware of "this living THING" (me) , and that my goal to have Mindfulness as "the" reaction to all states of my mind.. (4) I have to remind myself over and over again that the imperfection of the so-called "I", and that I should not protect "it" ("I", "me") from the judgment from others and mine.. It ("I") should be dissected, examined, judged, tested with all sorts of mental and physical pain in order for "it" to understand "itself".. Honesty and facing the truths and facts are my vows.. Any tears, any sadness, any laughter, any joy, any numbness are "big signs" that "I" control (?) the situation and twists emotions unreasonably.. (5) Pain and hurt are healthy and needed to help me grow spiritually.. Without them, I tend to forget Mindfulness and think too proud of myself.. [[ By the way, we must know the first Noble Truth (suffering) before we can understand the other four Noble Truths.. Suffering is a pre-requisite to Nibbana.. Interesting, isn't it ??.. hehehe.. ]] (6) Whenever I feel hurt or happy or numb, I must find out what (!!) bothers me or what my secret expectation(s) are.. Expectations (Lobha) and Bothers (Dosa) are, of course, the Second Noble Truths.. hehehe.. Do you see how I appreciate the moment Mindfulness ?? :-)) (7) Must try and try to be in others' shoes.. Must try to have more than one viewpoints.. If there is a new viewpoint which I have never heard of before, it must be my ignorance, and so, I must learn and accept it as another possibility to life, which I have been blind to.. This task is challenging and continues to be.. :-)) (8) Whatever I have or own is my burden and yet, my blessing in an unseparable mixture.. Ex: because I have an arm, I must take care of it (responsibility is a burden), and if it gets injured, it hurts (another burden) "me" (another burden).. Yet, I must fully appreciate its values, and all the wonderful things "I" can do with it.. Such inseparable mixture !! Ex: Love and hate are the same in that they are "changeable"; which emotion (Lobha/Dosa) I get in each moment depends on what I want or don't want to get or loose.. When I change my mind about what I want or don't want, my feeling/emotion (love/hate, like/dislike, lobha/dosa) change accordingly.. Such inseparable mixture !! Therefore, my job, as a Vipassana meditator, is to find out what I want or don't want in each moment of living.. Mindfulness is the only tool I have to let me know what I want or don't want in the current moment, and so, I must try to remember to be mindful.. Dukkha shall be the best reminder for me of my Mindfulness job.. :-)) (9) I must catch "me" on time, in the current moment of the "me" existence.. I must try to know "me" from moment to moment in order to know what to do with "me" and in order to catch "me" with its confusion (term ?) on time.. I can sit in meditation a thousand hours, for years after years, and gain many levels of Insights, but all that is useless when I loose to Dosa/Lobha in one blip of the mind when Mindfulness is not around and when the conditions are ripe for Dosa/Lobha.. What the use of meditating if I can't end my emotions right in the moment of living and experiencing Dosa/Lobha ??.. And so, I must try to keep Mindfulness going as continuous as I can.. (10) I "fear" living within Dosa/Lobha and without Mindfulness.. Suffering is "quite OK" if Mindfulness is around, because Mindfulness is my best friend and it can end suffering in the current moment.. Without MIndfulness, "I" can burn everything with Dosa/Lobha.. :-)) (11) Whatever my belief is, if it is the "cause" to Suffering (Lobha or Dosa, or any type of attachments), then that belief must be abolished.. Why ??.. Because my belief is unrealistic (ie.,different from the reality), and because it is another aspect of "I".. etc. etc. That's all I can remember for now.. The more I turn my attention inward, the better I feel, and the stronger I am mentally.. The lesser I have as "mine", the lighter, the happier, the calmer I feel "unconditionally".. I guess, as long as I keep myself on my toes and don't settle for anything, I am doing fine, but once I believe in anything firmly, "I" will hurt myself and others sooner or later.. Pardon for using "I" with and without quotes.. The "I" with quote refers to the "Self" (Ego).. The "I" without quote is whatever I must put in a sentence to meet the English format.. (( my English style [?] is another question.. hehehe)) I should end this message, 'cauz I guess you have got more than enough with my rambling thoughts.. hehehe.. With metta, Theresa.