1000 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Sukin, Good to hear from you and welcome to the list! Yes, I find having dhamma friends is invaluable....we can give each other reminders, disagree, share knowledge and sometimes have a good laugh! (I laughed when I read how Robert was sleeping peacefully while others were traching down the earthquake and then the 'What khun Sujin Would Say comments with Alex!) It seems that the regular English discussions in Bangkok and this list have started up at just the right time for you and it's good that you're not feeling too overwhelmed by all the terminology and detail. Don't hesitate to ask basic questions or make simple comments (often the best!). If you'd like to elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been binding me and of which I had not been aware' and what exactly has helped, that would be interesting. Yes, we never know when it'll be time for rebirth as a 'hungry ghost'...let's keep studying!! Sarah p.s. Is Sukin or Sukinder a male or female name? Jonothan and I'll be in Bkk for 2 days before and 2 days after the Cambodia trip (I forget the dates). Robert, sorry we'll be missing AGAIN. The only good thing is that at least you'll be around for the list when we're in Cambodia...not sure that internet cafes have hit Angkor Wat yet... > >Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, >I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in >buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a >little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I >attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been >looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize >how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the >mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion >group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence >I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person, >and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious >students of abhidhamma. >I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks, >my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to >say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more >knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and >now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here >have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been >binding me and of which I had not been aware. >Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your >knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my >kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' >again. Just kidding! >May panna abound, >Sukin. > > 1001 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 8:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Jonothan and Betty, I've been under the impression that, after nibbana, khandhas (sankhata) continue to arise, but are no longer subject to upaadaana. Am I wrong about this? Is it even pertinent to the original question? Thanks, mn --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Betty > > Have you had a chance to follow-up on this question? > I would be interestd > to hear more. Does the answer have to do with > nibbana being experienced > only as the object of citta, whereas other namas can > appear as object of > citta or can themselves be the citta/cetasika that > experiences an object? > > Jonothan > > > > > though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, > it does not > > > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned > realities, arising during it. > > > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises > at/after (?) attaining > >Nibbana. > > > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me > next week. For, how can > >panna > > > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if > panna IS a conditioned > >cetasika? > > > 1002 From: m. nease Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 8:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear Sukin, I'm in the same boat! I also came to this group by way of Robert's brilliant posts on another list, and I'm also pretty new to abhidhamma. I'm quite determined to learn it, though! I'm planning to go to Bangkok to this end next June. Hope to meet you then. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from you on the list. Anumodanaa, mn --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been > interested in > buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more > than read a > little bit here and a little there,up until six > months ago when I > attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time > on, I had been > looking for dhamma friends to associate with having > come to realize > how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at > least for the > mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on > another e-discussion > group and he introduced me to this group. I live in > Bangkok and hence > I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun > Sujin in person, > and to take part in the weekly discussion held here > with some serious > students of abhidhamma. > I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this > past four weeks, > my understanding hence is so little that I literally > had nothing to > say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is > so much more > knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can > say here and > now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of > the posts here > have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs > that have been > binding me and of which I had not been aware. > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make > best use of your > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know > if and when my > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a > 'hungry ghost' > again. Just kidding! > May panna abound, > Sukin. > > > 1003 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:08pm Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English too. > Our group should be in BKK on December 1st. > Are you going to be there as well? > It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna > intellectually in both languages. Dear O, Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are also many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can ask Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you get to Bangkok. I think you must have had a part in getting the tape copying machine for the foundation? I would recommend the tapes when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present date, starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us deeper and deeper. (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find, besides being very profound) For me it started out as a review, then I found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new things. By the way the young men who look after the taping get the casettes at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for only 20 bht.s apiece. I highly recommend them, just write to Khun Pracheun whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the foundation. Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to Thailand also, Amara 1004 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:21pm Subject: Re: Hello! > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' > again. Just kidding! > May panna abound, > Sukin. Hello! I'm glad you joined the discussions, you and Betty are the brightest new students of the DSSFBED group! I'm sure you will have many interesting questions and comments to contribute, and look forward to reading them soon, Amara 1005 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:36pm Subject: DSSFBEDG announcement Dear DG, Khun Sujin just called me to announce the cancellation of next Sarurday's class (Oct. 14), so please tell your friends, See you the weekend after, Amara 1006 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 11:29pm Subject: Re: Hello! Dear Sukin, Hello, Sukin. I'm new here, too. I'm looking forward to "see" you more in the forum. We're very fortunate that we're born as humans and as Buddhists, aren't we? Metta, Alex Tran ==================== --- "Sukinder Narula" wrote: > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. 1007 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > In the passage quoted, the Buddha is describing his > experience at a time before his enlightenment. Interesting and pertinent point! Of course, this sort of exercise would not have been necessary after nibbana. > It is > essentially, I believe, a description of samatha > bhavana. As we have discussed earlier, in order to > develop samatha, there must be the panna that knows > the difference between the cittas that are kusala > and > those that are akusala (the ‘twofold’ of the title). Understood... > So that when a ‘thought of > sense-pleasure/malevolence’ > (ie. akusala citta) arises, the panna can know it as > reality which ‘conduces to self-hurt and … to the > hurt > of others’ (ie. as akusala). understood... > At the moment that panna arises (‘while > reflecting’), > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > ‘subsides’). None at all? This is such a pleasant state that I'd begun (thanks to Robert's lucid comments on the subject) to think that I'm really only driving out a coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is clearly to be preferred over the former, I think this could be quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) conjecture is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it could become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have been happening for a long time... > But this is only momentary. The > akusala > citta keeps arising again and again (‘constantly’), > in > accordance with one’s accumulations, each time > becoming momentarily the object of the developed > panna. So the Buddha ‘kept on getting rid of the > thought, … driving it out, … making and end of it’. Understood. By the way, I've noticed that the term 'accumulations' is often used in the group's correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? Sankhaara? Both? Neither? > The important thing to notice is that the driving > out/subsiding is only momentary, and only occurs at > all if the requisite level of panna has been > developed > already. The question of how that panna is to be > developed is worthy of further study, I believe. I agree and intend to forge ahead with just this intention. > Jonothan > > PS If you are finding the list discussions useful, This list is the most useful thing I've found since first stumbling onto the buddhadhamma, twenty-nine years ago... > you may like to consider allowing some time on your > forthcoming stay in Thailand to visit Khun Sujin and > other friends in Bangkok for some live chat. Consider? At this point, it's the very reason I'm going. Now I'm just figuring out the logistics... Thanks again for your instruction! mn 1008 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!(welcome to our group) Swad dee ka khun Sukin Welcome to our group, like myself, I just joined the egroup last month,thanks to khun Amara :-)) The information from our group is enormous just like having the class in English every day. ( beside Thai classes that we have twice a week) as we're progressing in dhamma,we probably be even more hungry (like hungry ghost) than before : -)) (as least for me) cause we would definitely find out how much ignorance we have accumulated. anumodana and welcome aboard, O 1009 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello!(welcome to our group) --- protectID wrote: > we're progressing in dhamma,we probably be even > more > hungry (like hungry ghost) than before : -)) (as > least for me) ...for me too! Dhammachanda, no? And thanks so much for feeding me the three books! I can't wait to get started... Anumodanaa, mn 1010 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Free Dhamma tapes Yes, thanks in advance! Mike Neae 2100 Third Avenue, #704 Seattle, WA 98121 --- Robert Kirkpatrick > If anyone > would like copies of these just send me a private > mail > and I will send them when I have time to record > them. > Robert 1011 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear K. Sukin, A big welcome to the group. It has been a wonderful experience for me to have you with us. For, when Achaan asked me to explain the basics to you, it was a terrific experience for me to test my own understanding. Do not feel intimidated: we are all learners and come to the group with thousands upon thousands of lifetimes of accumulations of vipaka to unfold. Therefore, while one of us might understand A, B,C, another might understand D, E, F which is not understood by the first person. So, we can each reinforce the others along the path as Robert so brilliantly does each time he sends out an e-mail. By the way, kusala kamma (do you mean vipaka?) will not run out unless you no longer perform wholesome actions (sobhana hetus), which is highly unlikely if you are making the effort to study Dhamma! See you when next we all meet. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! > Dear Sukin, > > I'm in the same boat! I also came to this group by > way of Robert's brilliant posts on another list, and > I'm also pretty new to abhidhamma. I'm quite > determined to learn it, though! I'm planning to go to > Bangkok to this end next June. Hope to meet you then. > In the meantime, I look forward to hearing from you > on the list. > > Anumodanaa, > > mn > --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > > Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, > > I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been > > interested in > > buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more > > than read a > > little bit here and a little there,up until six > > months ago when I > > attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time > > on, I had been > > looking for dhamma friends to associate with having > > come to realize > > how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at > > least for the > > mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on > > another e-discussion > > group and he introduced me to this group. I live in > > Bangkok and hence > > I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun > > Sujin in person, > > and to take part in the weekly discussion held here > > with some serious > > students of abhidhamma. > > I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this > > past four weeks, > > my understanding hence is so little that I literally > > had nothing to > > say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is > > so much more > > knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can > > say here and > > now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of > > the posts here > > have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs > > that have been > > binding me and of which I had not been aware. > > Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make > > best use of your > > knowledge and understanding, because I do not know > > if and when my > > kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a > > 'hungry ghost' > > again. Just kidding! > > May panna abound, > > Sukin. > > > > 1012 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:12am Subject: Books Dear Robert, I`m back, the ' weekend member ' :-) Few days ago I received the books you sent me. I`m very thankful to your goodwill and interest in giving me the opportunity to improve my knowledge in the Dhamma. Thank you once more, Metta, Leonardo 1013 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Robert, > Dear leonardo, > I want to stress again how much I appreciate your > questions and comments and especially your careful > study of everyones comments. Your participation in > this forum is highly beneficial for all of us. Thank you > I guess my replies, which place so much stress on > anatta and uncontrollability, must seem to minimize > the importance of other aspects of the Buddha's > teaching, such as sila. A major reason for this is > because of my own experience and particular > predilictions for this aspect. If you go to Thailand > and meet with other members of the foundation you will > see that they stress sila much more. Speakers such as > Khun Tanit talk mainly about the different refinements > of sila and it is very beneficial to listen; one > leaves the hall so aware of the dangers of sense > desire; it can really condition "guarding the sense > doors". Khun sujin too often goes into the details of > sila - it really is a most important subject. I think we have the tendency most of the time to consider sila as a minor and preliminary step of the Path. In the first contact with Buddhism, usually thought that morality was some cultural and religious stuff. Nowdays, I think of those who understand sila are the ones who have more panna. Why ? Because as I have read, there are a mundane Right View and a Supra mundane Right-View. We have to begin our journey from where we are, and not where we think we are. There is a strong correlation between panna and sila. Even sila keeps itself in the mundane 'side' of the practice, it is the very foundation for panna arises. And there is no sila without some amount of understanding. > I see you have many works by bhikku bodhi (I had a > brief correspondence with him last month as I sent him > 150 copies of realities and concepts by sujin > boriharnwanaket which he requested)so I will refer to > a translation he made of the cariyapitaka (Net of > views p 300) "esteeming virtue as the foundation of > all achievements, as the soil for the origination of > all the Buddha qualities, the beginning, footing, head > and chief of all the dhammas issuing in buddhahood.". > Sila IS that important. However, I notice that > some/many people misunderstand about sila. They work > so hard at it but with an idea that "they" are keeping > sila. I know people who live a life of austerity, > celibacy and non-harming; much more than I even aspire > to, and yet even after many years they cling to wrong > practice. I like to point out these matters as I know > silabata upadana - clinging to sila and ritual - is a > great obstacle on the path. When we have this aspect > of wrong view it is hard to give it up. It feels right > because we change our life. Before learning about > Dhamma we were maybe careless, led a reckless life, or > had no real aim in life? Now we have rules to follow > and special difficult practices to try and master. Our > life has changed so much and we can see the difference > it makes- we are calmer and think more clearly. We > take these things as signposts that wisdom is also > growing but this may not be so. The Visuddhimagga > Xvii63 "his non-abandonment of that ignorance about > the four noble truths in particular prevents him from > recognizing as suffering the kind of suffering called > the fruit of merit". And the samyutta nikaya ii 82 > "not knowing, bhikkhus, in ignorance he forms the > formation of merit, forms the formation of demirit, > forms the formation of the imperturbable". Sila and > samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to > samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada > spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to > pleasant result, but is it not better to have > understanding as well. At every moment satipatthana is > being correctly developed there is a level of sila > that is higher than if sila is developed without > wisdom. Robert, the big problem I see is that every teaching is directed to a particular kind of individual. If it is not the case, the Budhha didn`t preach on a great variety of aspects, one time stressing very basic things - for example, what an husband/wife should do in relation to hi/her partner, etc.. There are many, many levels of understanding of the Dhamma. Some people will never grasp the more profound aspects of the Dhamma. So, sila is in itself a very good tool to 'survive' in samsara and more important to create more suitable conditions for panna arises. you`ve said: > " Sila and samattha, can so easily be just more bricks added to > samsara; they too keep the wheel of paticusamupada > spinning. They are not to be feared as they lead to > pleasant result, but is it not better to have > understanding as well." In a ultimate sense of the Dhamma you are correct, but what about the millions of men and women now around the world not having the opportunity to study the Dhamma i a right way ? For those people sila and also samatha will be of a great value. > On Bhikkhu Bodhis book "Nourishing the roots". I think > I emphasize different factors to Bodhi. He sees the > value of sila- good. I see the danger of clinging to > it. We need to be exposed to different > interpretations. I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of what sila means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give us some better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be ever better then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon our strong unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept or practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is panna itself isn`t it ? I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the real sila is conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our big ego - this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing annata. > He writes about cetana, volition. "This redirecting of > volition is initiated by voluntarily > undertaking the observance of principles of conduct > belonging to a > righteous order -- > by willing to abstain from evil and to practise the > good." > I would perhaps remind that cetana is part of > sankharakkhandha, that it "is not-self because > uncontrollable"Visuddhimagga xiv224. Although Cetana is a sankharakkhanda and of course not-self, I think the right conditions must be created - kusala cetanas is the aim. Do you think that there are conditions to a more profound understanding without sila ? Robert, I never put too much emphasis in any kond of morality :-) so for me it is alomost funny this conversation. > The next part of the sutta depends very much on the > understanding or misunderstanding of the reader. For > example the phrase > "For one who is concentrated, no deliberate volition > need be exerted: "May I know and > see things as they really are." This is the natural > law, bhikkhus, that one who is concentrated knows and sees things as they really > are." > What type of concentration is this? It is the type of > concentration that arises with sammaditthi and that > takes a paramattha dhamma as object. And yes, exactly, > no need for 'deliberate volition", it all happens by > natural law. If we don't know the subtleties of the > path we can so easily construe this passage to mean > "get concentrated; become wise" but be unaware of the > different types of concentration. Excelent remark ... but for me "get concentrated with the right understanding and become wise" Thanks :-)) > The suttas I read 10 years past look different to me > now. The Atthasalini (translated as the expositor > p31)"the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets > a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view" > . This tends to happen with those who only study > sutta. Studying Abhidhamma has potential problems too- > a wrong grasp can lead even to madness if "he makes > his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions". > And if we don't study and develop at all then we will > go down to apaya anyway. Nothing is easy! > Robert Yes, unfortunately nothing is really easy .... thank you, Leonardo 1014 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the highlight of my day! Dear Sarah, Thank all of you to be conditions to my understanding. For sure I`m loving these discussions. I`m rooting my panna seeds here and you are helping me some much watering them ! Thank you, Metta, Leonardo Weekends` pupil :-] > Dear Leonardo, > > It's great when someone comes along like yourself who can really appreciate > and benefit from this list....we have certainly benefited enormously > ourselves. The highlight of my day is checking out the list in the evening > after I finish work! > > Robert and Amara also helped us a lot in getting the group started and as > you can see, continue to make great contributions... > > Thank you for taking part and for your great support and nice words....We > all appreciate your keen interest and study. It'll take me a little time to > catch up with your wonderful weekend posts! > > Sarah > > > > > > > Sarah and Jon will be pleased too. They started this > > > group partly so that we could all have easy contact > > > since we live in many different countries. And also in > > > the hope of benefitting those who have the > > > accumulations - like you and Alex- to want to go deep > > > into the study of Dhamma, which is nothing other than > > > the study of paramattha dhammas, the study of this > > > confusing mass we call life. > > > > Thank you, Sarah and Jon ! > > > > > The best gift is the Dhamma isn`t it ? > > > >Thank all of you for the wonderful site and for allowing me to take part of > >it ! > > > >Mudita, > >Leonardo > > > 1015 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Alex, Thank you for your kind words and instructions ... > Even with the knowledge that everything happens because of > conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to plant some seeds in > the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because whatever I plant > and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, and will give me > other conditions to move on the Path. You write like a poet ! Metta, Leonardo 1016 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sila, Nourishing The Roots, Dear Robert, > Dear Leonardo, > Regarding the relationship of sila and wisdom I saw > something by Nina VG which might be of interest. > She writes in the "Perfections leading to > enlightenment": her wonderful book on the parami > "Khun sujin reminded us that when there is the > development of satipatthana there is no attachement to > the result of kusala, no clinging to an idea of : "i > should have more dana, I should have more sila, I > should have more calm"....If there is no development > of satipatthana we are actually in a dangerous > situation. there may be conditons for kusala citta > which observes sila, perhaps for a very long time, but > who knows his accumulations of akusala?.....We may > think we " I can observe the precepts" and delude > ourselves into thinking that we are so good, but not > notice the countless moments of akusala citta." How do you develop satipatthana ? (sorry for the basic question ) Metta, Leonardo 1017 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Robert, Very, very good ! Compassion springs in your mail ! Metta, Leonardo > Dear Leonardo, > I wrote > "we must remember that > > hatred > > > is another dhamma that arises and should be > > > investigated." > > > > .You replied "Yes, but I have some > problems in facing > > that. Sometimes it is easy to me, > > but in another circunstances, i find myself lost in > > the mud ...." > > This is hard. This is where it is easy to lose courage > and search for ways other than the direct > understanding of paramattha dhammas. > The understanding we learn from Buddhism, if it is > the real one, can never make our life more difficult. > When I was practising wrongly- trying to bring up > sati, trying to control, I got very uptight - it > seemed that I was better off before I learnt about > Buddhism. I had a lot of pain but at least that showed > me I was on the wrong path. > > I really think I was so fortunate that things went > that way. It could have been worse - I might have been > a real success at the techniques I was trying- and > then, would I have been able to give them up? It is > more difficult to see the wrong path if it is > associated with lobha because this comes with pleasant > feeling; one is so happy about their "progress". > > Leonardo, I would say be glad when things get hard, > when you are "lost in the mud". This is the time when > adhittha parami and patience parami can arise. They > can support panna and then you may be able to see that > akusala - even fear, hatred, and loathing - are merely > dhammas. They are not to be feared, they are to be > understood. > > This is a barrier, a hurdle on the path that must be > crossed. Once we truly understand that these powerful > emotions are nothing other than paramattha dhammas > they lose their hold on us. When we learn to see them > with insight they become our friends. (If we cannot do > this yet, well that is fine, that is dhamma too.) > > If we use other methods to overcome such emotions we > should know that this is only suppression . Even if we > succeed we have missed the chance to really understand > them. The other ways- even correct development of > samattha- can only suppress at best. Vis XV163 "The > perfect ones behave like lions. When they make > suffering cease and when they teach the the cessation > of suffering, they deal with the cause, not the fruit. > But the sectarians behave like dogs. When they make > suffering cease and when ythey teach the cessation of > suffering, by teaching devotion to self-mortification > etc., they deal with the fruit not the cause." > There are so many different ways to avoid > understanding this moment. Go to the movies, walk in > the park, inject heroin, argue with our spouse, sit > and concentrate on the breath, whatever. (And yet all > during all these activities there are only namas and > rupas arising - they can be understood at those > moments too). > > In the Majjhimanikaya, sutta 4, Bhayabhera sutta: the > Bodhisatta thought "why do I always dwell expecting > fear and dread? What if I subdue that fear and dread > while keeping the same posture that I am in when it > comes upon me? While I walked the fear and dread came > upon me; I neither sat nor lay down until I had > subdued that fear and dread.While I lay down that fear > and dread came upon me; I neither walked nor stood nor > sat down til I ad subdued that fear and dread" > > Are we afraid that our emotions might cause us to do > bad deeds? But if hate is seen, in the moment, as it > really is, then it is not taken for self. It is not > "my anger, my hate". Satipatthana protects - it shows > us the difference between concept and reality. It is > because we take concepts such as people for real > things that we can do bad deeds. We hate a concept, a > story, a situation. You do not kill a paramattha > dhamma. > The path is simple and direct - the understanding of > whatever reality arises. This sounds rather easy but > of course it is not. At every moment wrong practce and > wrong view are liable to arise. There is often hidden > attachment to self that thinks "I am understanding, > this is my understanding': easy not to see this. And > hard to see the subtle wanting(lobha) that wants to > understand. > Robert > > > 1018 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation Dear Jonothan, > > Yes, there are many people > > that have understood the Dhamma > > spoken by the Buddha without sitting cross-legged. > > Many of them were not 'meditating'... > > If all of this practice is wrong, how it > > comes to life? Why for many > > centuries monks as well lay people put too much > > emphasis in meditation? There are > > many many hundreds of monasteries, retreat centers, > > meditation classes and as far as > > I know it is not a recent issue. Do you have some > > explanation on this? Any references? > > Just to clarify. I have not said that the things you > have mentioned are necessarily indicative of wrong > view. We cannot know the views of others unless we > have an opportunity to discuss those views with them. > > But to answer your question, there has always been and > will always be wrong practice, conditioned by wrong > view, among the followers of Buddhism. (Even at the > time of the Buddha this was so.) We cannot take > generally accepted views as being necessarily correct. > We need to check for ourselves whether what others do > or say is in accordance with the teachings as found in > the Tripitaka. I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule here but I would like to post a Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle. He has translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta (AN VI.46) about the dhamma-practitioners and meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is really an old one :-) Mahacunda Sutta Mahacunda AN 6.46 Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable Mahacunda was living in Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable Mahacunda addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, friend." "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma that harass and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: 'Those meditators, they meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and mismeditate[2]. Of what do they meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? What is their motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma, nor the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that harass and disparage the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: 'Those monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and unsteady, talkative and scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, with minds wandering and faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma for? On account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? What is their motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, nor the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the Dhamma speak delightful only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do not speak delightful to the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation monks, nor the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak delightful only to other meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the monks dedicated to the Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma, nor the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they do not practice for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the welfare, the good, and the well-being of gods and men. "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the Dhamma should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful manner to the meditation monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an extraordinary person who dwells having personally attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, friends, the meditation monks should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful manner to the monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should train yourself. For what reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an extraordinary person who has come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial sayings and truly sees." Notes: 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to the Dhamma are called this because they expound the teachings, and the monks who are meditators are called this simply because they meditate(or dwell in mental absorption). 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: This is a passage which is meant to be a disparaging description of one's meditation practice. It appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a remark to cause virtuous monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an opportunity, and in sutta 108 as a description of one's mental absorption while being obsessed by the five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is unknown to me, I have followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in rendering these with their literal meanings. 3. nibbana Sean > > For me, there is only the practice. > > Some people don't need anymore the > > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, in > > my case I still need ... > > If it is the correct practice, we will never reach a > stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you mean > that although your practice will remain the same, you > hope to be able to carry it through into your daily > life, so that in that sense there would no longer be a > formal practice. This suggests the idea of changing > one's life from what it is now to what we think it > should be. This could be just another instance of > 'taking the outer aspect of the religion to the core > message of the teaching'! You too play chess, isn`t it ? :-) Leonardo 1019 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Thanks, Robert Leonardo > ---Dear Leonardo, > I think it was in the Jatakas where the Bodhisatta > deliberately stole. I think he was the advisor to a > king and highly respected. He wanted to see whether > people respected his wisdom more than sila. He found > out soon enough after they were dragging him to the > execution pit. He told his reasons and was released - > If I see it sometime I will give the reference. > > > > > Sometimes I`ve tried to > > do 'invite' hatred to come to > > my mind only to see how it works. When I`m having > > some anguish, I do sit to meditate > > in order to observe it. Unfortunately, the most of > > time I tried the same strategy > > without sitting, I couldn`t have the same > > understanding. > > Refer to my posting today under this heading- > especially the section where the bodhisatta overcame > fear and dread in whatever posture he was in. > > > > How is the > > difference between thinking and seeing ? Sorry I do > > not how to express better ! > > What are the differences among yoniso > > manasikara x sati x simple bare > > attention ? > > > Good questions!! This is dhammavicaya, investigation > of Dhamma. At this level no one can tell us exactly > the difference. But the difference becomes clearer as > panna and sati progress. Sati of satipatthana only > arises in conjunction with a level of panna. Simple > bare attention can easily be a subtle type of > akusala- it is still "us" who is having bare > attention. > > > > What are > > the conditions to move to an thinking way of > > understanding to 'see things as really > > are' ? > > There are many levels of understanding; the foundation > of them all is correct intellectual understanding of > the Buddha's teaching. For that we need careful and > wide study and repeated consideration. And as Alex > noted discussing and questioning about difficult > points with the right people is also needed. There is > no other way. > This is just the beginning, but if it is done properly > it is right. It is far better than racing along > following the wrong path. > > > I said "No sati ? Then > > there > > > are other namas arising. > > Their characteristic can't be changed." > > > > You wrote "This last sentence puzzled > me. > " > Even when we experience something directly it has gone > already, forever, never to arise again. How can we > change something that has already disappeared. Why do > we worry about it? It is because of clinging. > > > > > > How to practice right effort if we have yet miccha > > ditthi ? If we stirs up energy to > > put aside and prevent unwholesome thoughts and, as > > you said, it is very much due to > > miccha ditti until we reach some more deep > > understanding, what should the correct > > approach ? - this is a koan ! > > See the comments Alex made and also where I said the > best efforts are those when we try and understand what > it was that he Buddha really taught and what the path > is and is not. > Robert > > > > > 1020 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation Thank you Jonothan Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation > Leonardo, > > Thanks again for you reply and pertinent comments. > > > I agree with you in part. I didn't mention > > this sutta for the sake of answer > > the question if samatha bhavana is conducive to > > vipassana. My intention was only to > > put in reference that samatha is not out of > > Dhamma-Vinaya. > > Sorry about that. Yes, I agree, samatha bhavana is > certainly part of the Dhamma-Vinaya (and should be > studied). > > > ..... There are most authors > > that think the Noble Eightfold Path will be > > incomplete without Samma-samadhi > > Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the 8-fold > path. This means it is present at every moment of > path consciousness. Like the other 7 factors, it is a > cetasika that arises at the moment of > path-consciousness (it is in fact the cetasika > ekaggata). > > > and Samma-samadhi is considered as the 4 jhanas ! > > This is where it gets interesting! My understanding > (although I have not looked at the relevant texts for > some time) is that while the 4 jhanas *may* form the > basis for samma-samadhi of the 8-fold path, the texts > clearly indicate that the path can be realised without > attaining the jhanas (there are many references to > followers at the time of the Buddha who were in this > category). So that brings us to the crucial question- > > > What kind/level of concentration is necessary to > > vipassana? What you have to > > say about the quality/level/profundity of the > > concentration that supports and > > conditions your Dhamma understanding? > > Each moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana is > accompanied by cetasikas of the level appropriate to > that moment. This applies to the samadhi cetasika, > the viraya (energy) cetasika or any of the other 6 > path-factor cetasikas. So whether it is weak > satipatthana or highly developed satipatthana, the > accompanying cetasikas are of the appropriate level. > The important thing to realise here is that there is > no *prerequisite* level of samadhi in the sense that > we must actively develop a certain level of samadhi > before there can be any satipatthana. > > > What does > >Khun Sujin teach about this? > > I hope that what I have said in this post reflects > what Khun Sujin teaches about this. If I find a > translation of one of her talks on this subject I will > let you have a copy. Perhaps some of the others will > add to my comments. > > Jonothan > 1021 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 0:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear Dear Leonardo and Alex, I thought you might appreciate this parallel to Alex's good words: Venerable Ajahn Chah said... "Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass away, you can just be aware and let them run their course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise and water one and do not take care of the other, there is no question which one will grow and which one will die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Alex, > > Thank you for your kind words and instructions ... > > > Even with the knowledge that everything happens > because of > > conditions, I don't sit back. I still go out to > plant some seeds in > > the soil. Then, I *don't expect results* because > whatever I plant > > and take care of, for sure, will grow into a tree, > and will give me > > other conditions to move on the Path. > > You write like a poet ! > > Metta, > Leonardo > > 1022 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Free Dhamma tapes Dear Amara Thanks so much for the information can I order the tapes through pe Ell (Ivan's wife)? I think that was I did last time, I shall email her and have her take care it for me. Amara, again thanks for all your hard work and getting all of us working together without your creativity, hard work, and devotion in dhamma.we would not have been here:-)) with sincerely anumodana, O 1023 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 2:26pm Subject: Intro Hello Everyone, After having posted without introducing myself, I would like to introduce myself here (long---it may be enough for some of you to read this paragraph). My name is Kom Tukovinit, a highly mangled name from my original Thai name. I am also known as C, the third English alphabet, fashioned in a typical Thai nickname, although I normally sign my email as kom. I began taking some interests in Buddhism in 1994, after some stressful college years, but my interest level didn't really pick up until 1997, when I first met Khun Jack (and Khun O, Khun Oy, and other students in the San Francisco bay area). My meeting Khun Jack was a coincidental but fateful one: I was in a food expedition to the Thai temple in Fremont, and thereby ran into Khun Jack who was very eagar to start a studying group after a very successful visit from A. Sujin. If I hadn't met Khun Jack on that day, I wouldn't have been studying Dhamma now, as my connection to the Thai community was and still is quite low. My first 6-mth of studying Abhidhamma was trying at best. Despite my background as a Buddhist, Abhidhamma was new to me, it didn't make sense to me, and I just didn't make the connection of how it connected to everyday life. The inconsistent attendance of the studying group at the time didn't help either: I got behind and generally felt bad in joining the group as I was afraid of slowing people down. I started to lose interest, then came my 5-mth extended stay in Thailand, during which time I contemplated of becoming a monk (in the traditional 3-mth stay) in hope of maybe learning some insights. After some exploration of the different books that my parents had, a 7-day stay at Suan Mok, I decided a life of a monk was beyond my nature at this point. I appreciated the dhamma conversations immensely (at one point I experienced intense Piti, be it with Kusala or Akusala), but didn't appreciate the meditation sessions particularly as I didn't feel like I was learning anything in the sessions except that mosquitoes can be quite big and they could bite through multiple layers of clothing. Then came the three different sessions of "Vipassana" meditation: 2 7-day session, and another 10-day session. I had some bizzarre experience through the first 7-day session, and frankly, I was enjoying the attention and was interested in seeing where that would take me, and hence, the second 7-day session. During the second session, things became "normal" and I didn't learn much through sitting and walking, but did appreciate the lectures. However, I did decide to see if a third session, in a more "intense" environment, would yield other insights. The third session was a mixed-blessing. My 6 mth of studying Abhidhamma didn't do much improving my confidence about Buddha and his teachings. However, some of the thoughts and "considering the present dhamma" that went through my mind mostly in walking sessions did markly improve my confidence that such a person who taught such refined realities must be of a unique quality. I began making some intellectual (thinking) connections why it was important to study Abhidhamma. On the other hands, the session also increased my attachment to such a practice. After coming back to the bay area, I started studying with Khun Jack's group again with an increased level of intensity for my confidence in Buddha's teaching had improved. (Also, new members in the group also improved the interaction within the group). My understanding of how things worked was also at odd with A. Sujin's teachings and Suan Mok's teachings. I actually became somewhat angry about how things turned out: one way of reaching Nibhanna, and three different teachers teaching different things. Teachers' "special" qualities (including sign of Metta, Karuna, panna, jhana) don't count, as all the teachers' students claim that their teachers have some of them. Size of followings and who are the followers don't count, as there are too many of different people believing in quite unbelieveable (to me) things. Listening to A. Sujin and some of the discussions led by Khun Jack was hard at times, as it was against my guts feelings. However, I determined to press on with studying for three simple reasons: the tipitakas are as close as you can get to listening from the Buddha himself, present realities are provable (to oneself), and I was not such a person to say what I believe must be right. Since then (1 year later, with 2 weeks spent with A. Sujin and A. Santi), my understanding of how things work have changed (truly, it is changing day by day, possibly moment by moment). I have more (hopefully more correct) understanding of why A. Sujin teaches what she teaches. It is now more urgent than ever to understand dhamma as it truly is, to remind myself in so many different ways that life is short and precious: it is important to listen/consider about dhamma now---who knows when I might be able to do this again in the future. I appreciate the enthusiastic contribution from the people in this group. I am looking forward to hearing more about the questions/answers from everybody. 1024 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 3:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Accumulations means many different things to me. Somewhere, citta is explained to: 1) accumulate karma and kilesa: it accumulates Anusaya Kilesa (fine kilesa) regardless if it results in deed (by speech or body) 2) accumulate karma and vipaka: karma, except for specific circumstances, will certainly results in vipaka, and therefore, citta is the element that accumulates karma and vipaka 3) accumulate "Vasana" (habits ???): what you are accustomed to do, you will keep doing, throughout lifetimes (Paccatunissaya Pacaya???) When one says, one has the accumulation to study dhamma, it may mean: Because of the karma that was completed, one is: a) born in a happy plane, capable of understanding dhamma b) born at a time and place where there are dhamma friends, capable of clarifying dhamma Because of the accumulation to study dhamma, one will more likely to: a) stay in a place where there are dhamma friends b) associate oneself with the dhamma friends c) listen to and consider what the dhamma friends speak about dhamma d) does not have accumulation to believe in what would prevent further accumulations. --- "m. nease" wrote: Understood. By the way, I've noticed that the term 'accumulations' is often used in the group's correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? Sankhaara? Both? Neither? 1026 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:26pm Subject: Re: samattha, was meditation etc. Dear mn, Your reply to jonothons excellent post said " --- "> > > Jonothon wrote "At the moment that panna arises (‘while > > reflecting’), > > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > > ‘subsides’)". > >MN wrote " I'd > begun to think that I'm really only driving out a > coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala > dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is > clearly > to be preferred over the former, I think this could > be > quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) > conjecture > is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I > fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it > could > become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, > micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have > been > happening for a long time... > YES. Well put. Samattha is not the easy thing it is sometimes thought to be. It seems that we have reduced lobha. We no longer indulge in woman, wine and song. A new BMW is not even on our list of wants. We eat less frequently, watch minimal TV and so and so on. Maybe we even live in a cave in the jungle. Surely we must be reducing desire with all this? However, desire finds other objects, it becomes hidden (like a dangerous snake), or it clings to view, or it takes up wrong practice. If we want to correctly develop samattha it is most useful to know about all this so that we can detect lobha in all its forms. Robert 1027 From: shinlin Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 4:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! Dear K.Sukin, Anumodana to your kusula vipaka on hearing the dhamma. Dear K. Robert, Anumodana to your kusula kamma in giving the dhamma to a friend. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinder Narula Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello! | Dear Jonothan,Sarah and other members, | I am new to this list, my name is Sukin. I have been interested in | buddhism for quite a few years, but did nothing more than read a | little bit here and a little there,up until six months ago when I | attended a 10-day meditation course. From that time on, I had been | looking for dhamma friends to associate with having come to realize | how 'negative' my life had been. My search ended, at least for the | mean time, when last month I came upon Robert on another e-discussion | group and he introduced me to this group. I live in Bangkok and hence | I have had the additional good fortune to meet Khun Sujin in person, | and to take part in the weekly discussion held here with some serious | students of abhidhamma. | I had never opened an abhidhamma manual before this past four weeks, | my understanding hence is so little that I literally had nothing to | say with regard to the posts submitted.Everyone is so much more | knowledgable and wise than I am. However what I can say here and | now,is that 'the truth sets you free', and some of the posts here | have managed to loosen the grip of false beliefs that have been | binding me and of which I had not been aware. | Hope to catch up with you all,so that I may make best use of your | knowledge and understanding, because I do not know if and when my | kusala kamma will run out, and I may be reborn as a 'hungry ghost' | again. Just kidding! | May panna abound, | Sukin. | 1028 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study --- > leonardo wrote "I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule > here but I would like to post a > Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle." Post as much as you like, no rules. I was looking over some of my correspondence with Nina van Gorkom. By the way in case any of you feel that you are putting the egroup to an imposition by writing detailed comments this might put you at ease. I see one of my early letters (june 1991) ran to 21 A4 pages( handwritten). And was all questions! Her reply was just as long. Leornardo wrote "He has > translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta > (AN VI.46) about > the dhamma-practitioners and > meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is > really > an old one :-) > > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about this sutta. The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles translation of this term to one I read that had Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would be good to ask him to translate this also rather than just give a very brief note as he did. We are painfully short of commentarial translations whereas this sutta has been translated several times already. Nina translated part of it: The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas) The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > Mahacunda was living in > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > Mahacunda addressed the > monks: "Monks!" > > "Yes, friend." > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > the Dhamma that harass > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > 'Those meditators, they > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice for > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > the welfare, the good, and > the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > harass and disparage the > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > 'Those monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > unsteady, talkative and > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > with minds wandering and > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > to the Dhamma for? On > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > nor the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > for the welfare, the good, > and the well-being of gods and men. > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma speak delightful > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > not speak delightful to > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > monks, nor the monks who > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > Moreover, they do not > practice for the good and well-being of the > multitude, nor for the welfare, > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > delightful only to other > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > monks dedicated to the > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > to the Dhamma, nor the > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > do not practice for the > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > welfare, the good, and the > well-being of gods and men. > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma should train > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > manner to the meditation > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > dwells having personally > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > friends, the meditation monks > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > delightful manner to the > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees." > > Notes: > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > the Dhamma are called > this because they expound the teachings, and the > monks who are meditators > are called this simply because they meditate(or > dwell in mental absorption). > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > This is a passage which is > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > meditation practice. It > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > remark to cause virtuous > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > opportunity, and in sutta > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > while being obsessed by the > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > unknown to me, I have > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > rendering these with > their literal meanings. > > 3. nibbana > Sean > > > > > For me, there is only the practice. > > > Some people don't need anymore the > > > formal practice to realize the Dhamma. Jonothan, > in > > > my case I still need ... > > > > If it is the correct practice, we will never reach > a > > stage when we do not need it! But perhaps you > mean > > that although your practice will remain the same, > you > > hope to be able to carry it through into your > daily > > life, so that in that sense there would no longer > be a > > formal practice. This suggests the idea of > changing > > one's life from what it is now to what we think it > > should be. This could be just another instance of > > 'taking the outer aspect of the religion to the > core > > message of the teaching'! > > You too play chess, isn`t it ? :-) > Leonardo > > 1030 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 3:57am Subject: sila as foundation Dear Leonardo & friends, I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation of sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be limited by the level of sila established too. 1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. 2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change this good behaviour. 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the wholesome tendencies to grow. 4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can be very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa and moha? 5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation or a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations it shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no situations. 6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all have different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. 7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's understanding had to develop to this high level. Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without comprehending that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated with wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we give money, time or possessions? Thanks! Sarah > >We think "I will help them... I helped them." >We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like >"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little >Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- >but how well is this understood. > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not >self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the >aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and >unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes >volition. The moments of giving are conditioned >phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may >seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition >arose because of a complex interjunction of >conditions. >It needed accumulations of kusala from the past >otherwise such a volition could not arise. >We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will >just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not >to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can >we understand it is not us? >Giving is hindered when we live in the world of >concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; >lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there >is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The >sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the >idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong >practice and at the same time he eradicates >stinginess. >Robert > > 1031 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:57pm Subject: Thanks. Dear group members, Thanks for your warm welcome. I will send questions when the time comes, but for now I will try to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been...." which Sarah asked about. I do not know if I will be able to express myself well enough, since I do know for sure that I am most of the time very muddled and inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had always thought that 'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. Not only did I think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka for example, and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to the understanding of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a person *intent* on understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' method of meditation, but then would step by step correct him/herself and one day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she was looking in the right direction ie., inwards. I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss this moment with the aim of understanding future moments, I am conditioning myself to *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would be a time *arrived* and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* on understanding 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what citta & cetasikas will arise causing the mind to be diverted from *seeking* truth, and what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further diversions.' As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than not to know" and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you free', free from knots that have many faces. Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, to stop drinking alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was obviously necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because I was tired of my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order to be able to move on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the *end* of whatever activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order so that I may not be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking that it was more 'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and Mahayanists. I even told myself that it was alright for monks to eat meat, because they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had the freedom to choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in abundance. I realized and did expect of becoming attached to certain vegetarian foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four different kinds of cheese in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in which I was bound. Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the first day of my visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai called,when translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took a small piece of chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't like it but I didn't dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, but I take a small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel *free*. This is how I think,I have benefited from this group, and from this I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. What do you think? Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukin 1032 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:14am Subject: Somanassa vedana Dear Kom, I was considering your excellent qu about somanassa vedana which Robert has already given a good answer to. (Actually I'm beginning to realise by the good questions recently on the list that when people say they have only studied for a short time or are beginners that often they are just being modest!) Anyway just a couple of extra comments which anyone is welcome to comment on: Just as all visible objects are different from each other, appear differently but share certain characteristics, so it is with somanassa vedana (pleasant feeling) or and other realities. All kusala somanassa vedanas are different from each other but share certain characteristics which differentiate them from akusala somanassa vedanas. For example, kusala somanassa vedana is calm and not restless whereas akusala somanassa vedana is agitated and not truly calm. When the former appears, understanding understands its kusala nature at that moment. They may follow each other very closely but of course the latter are a lot more frequent! As understanding grows, it penetrates the characteristic appearing more 'deeply', recognizing the finer details more. It's not a matter of understanding somanassa vedana one minute and then understanding kusala or akusala the next. It's a matter of understanding the reality precisely as it is at that moment. Of course it's intellectual and blurry in the beginning, but gradually amongst those intellectual and blurry understandings a little more understanding grows that is a little more refined and understands a little more precisely for an instant only. This is the way that panna (wisdom) develops. In between there is thinking (not necessarily in words) and wondering and doubting, but these are all realities which can be known too. Then we may just get lost in the world of concepts and that's fine.....It's conditioned to be so at that time... Of course, as we have been discussing, if there is a 'selecting of the object' or wanting to DO something to develop more understanding of somanassa vedana or any other reality, it will be lobha and not panna at that moment. So we need to consider the details of many, many realities... Look forward to hearing more of your interesting comments/questions/replies! Sarah > How > > about experiencing the Somanassa Vetana in Kusala > > and Akusala cittas? > > > > Since the citta can experience only one element at a > > time, then the > > citta > > that experiences somanassa vetana cannot know if the > > citta with > > Somanassa Vetana is kusala or akusala? > >The cittas are arising and passing away so fast that >in the beginning we cannot at all distinguish just one >element(even though we know this from theory). However >there can be consideration in the present moment that >understands, just a very little, of different >characteristics. Thinking about experiencing just one >element and whether we can know it as kusala or >akusala is just that- thinking. > > >Or as I > > remember from one of > > Nina's books (can't do exact quote), that even > > Somanassa Vetana in > > Kusala and Akusala cittas have different > > characteristics? > > Yes, they are different. And this is importanat to >know. Thank you for reminding me. > 1033 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Intro Thanks for the outstanding intro, C--I'm glad to be associated with you and look forward to hearing more. mn 1034 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks./intro/practice Dear Sukin, So, since you met Khun Sujin and the others what you have learned is to nibble on chicken? (I am joking.) Seriously, wrong view and right view are such subtle matters - there may not be much outward change if someone develops right view,. However, as Sukinder indicates right view is freeing. There is less clinging to how we perceive 'we" should act. We learn to know our own accumulations as to how to live. Some may live austere lives - others not- but both can develop understanding. On the question of the other practices and teachers; it is not that everything they teach is wrong- some of what they say may be useful. Some teachers explain satipatthana wrongly but are good on metta perhaps. I have found passages in the Tibetan texts on contemplating death quite good. The more understanding grows the more clear it becomes what is right and what is wrong- and then one just leaves the wrong aside. It is good to understand the moment and see that there is no teacher in the ultimate sense. When we listen to someone we don't have to think "this is my teacher", or "this is not my teacher". Listen and consider. Do the words condition understanding of this moment with detachment from the idea of self? Do they emphasize that sati and panna are uncontrollable? Do they clearly explain the difference between concept and reality? Do their words lessen our clinging to getting quick results? Sukin, I was really surprised by the depth of the following: "I also had the firm belief that a > person *intent* on > understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' > method of > meditation, but then would step by step correct > him/herself and one > day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she > was looking in > the right direction ie., inwards. > I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss > this moment with > the aim of understanding future moments, I am > conditioning myself to > *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would > be a time *arrived* > and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* > on understanding > 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what > citta & cetasikas > will arise causing the mind to be diverted from > *seeking* truth, and > what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further > diversions.'" These are things that many never understand- it is most hard to see this. Anomodana. Robert --- Sukinder Narula wrote: > Dear group members, > Thanks for your warm welcome. > I will send questions when the time comes, but for > now I will try > to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have > been...." which Sarah > asked about. > I do not know if I will be able to express myself > well enough, since > I do know for sure that I am most of the time very > muddled and > inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; > Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had > always thought that > 'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. > Not only did I > think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by > S.N.Goenka for example, > and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to > the understanding > of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a > person *intent* on > understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' > method of > meditation, but then would step by step correct > him/herself and one > day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she > was looking in > the right direction ie., inwards. > I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss > this moment with > the aim of understanding future moments, I am > conditioning myself to > *not look now*.Any formal meditation session would > be a time *arrived* > and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* > on understanding > 'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what > citta & cetasikas > will arise causing the mind to be diverted from > *seeking* truth, and > what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further > diversions.' > As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than > not to know" > and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you > free', free from > knots that have many faces. > Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, > to stop drinking > alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was > obviously > necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because > I was tired of > my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order > to be able to move > on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the > *end* of whatever > activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order > so that I may > not > be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking > that it was more > 'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and > Mahayanists. > I even told myself that it was alright for monks to > eat meat, because > they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had > the freedom to > choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in > abundance. > I realized and did expect of becoming attached to > certain vegetarian > foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four > different kinds of cheese > in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in > which I was bound. > Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the > first day of my > visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai > called,when > translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. > After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took > a small piece of > chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't > like it but I didn't > dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, > but I take a > small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel > *free*. > This is how I think,I have benefited from this > group, and from this > I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. > What do you think? > Sorry for the long post. > Metta, > > Sukin > > 1035 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear friends, Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of giving. Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good deeds with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha dhammas? With Metta, Alex >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 19:57:36 CST > >Dear Leonardo & friends, > >I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation >of >sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the >articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be limited >by the level of sila established too. > >1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. >first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. > >2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are >very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they >respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change >this good behaviour. > >3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the >wholesome tendencies to grow. > >4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any >knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments >of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can >be >very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely >attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of >what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, >how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa >and >moha? > >5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation >or >a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations >it >shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't >talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no >situations. > >6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all >have >different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the >term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember >stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when >they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. > >7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's >understanding had to develop to this high level. > > >Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without >comprehending >that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. > >Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated with >wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we give >money, time or possessions? Thanks! > >Sarah > > > > >We think "I will help them... I helped them." > >We give money to a beggar in India and it seems like > >"I" gave, "I decided to give". If we know a little > >Dhamma we might reflect "the volition arose to give"- > >but how well is this understood. > > The visuddhimagga xv224 says that perception and > > formations, sanna and sankhara khandhas, are not > >self, "they are unmanageable". Sanhara kkhanda, the > >aggregate of formations, includes all wholesome and > >unwholesome cetasikas (and a few others). It includes > >volition. The moments of giving are conditioned > >phenomena, they are unmanageable, not-self. It may > >seem that we decided to give but in fact this volition > >arose because of a complex interjunction of > >conditions. > >It needed accumulations of kusala from the past > >otherwise such a volition could not arise. > >We might think "I won't give to those beggars, it will > >just encourage them to be lazy" and this thinking not > >to give is likewise conditioned by many factors. Can > >we understand it is not us? > >Giving is hindered when we live in the world of > >concepts. We think we would lose something if we give; > >lose money, or time, or possesions. But really there > >is no money, no time, no possesions, no us. The > >sotapanna sees this so clearly- he has eradicated the > >idea of self, he has eradicated clinging to wrong > >practice and at the same time he eradicates > >stinginess. > >Robert > > 1036 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Intro Thanks Kom for all the interesting info. and background. If any of the more long-term members lurking quietly would like to (or are willing to!) give a short or long intro, I'm sure it would be appreciated by all! Sarah > >Hello Everyone, > >After having posted without introducing myself, I would like to >introduce >myself here (long---it may be enough for some of you to read this >paragraph). My name is Kom Tukovinit, a highly mangled name from my >original Thai name. I am also known as C, the third English >alphabet, >fashioned in a typical Thai nickname, although I normally sign my >email as >kom. > 1037 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 8:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Alex, That is a good example and great question. Do you have any ideas yourself? Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming > against the current. > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents > used to force her > siblings and herself to give so that they might > develop the habit of giving. > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks > like doing a good deeds > with the help from others. In the above case, it > seems that the children > may develop resentment, more attachment to the given > away objects, conceit, > etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > What should we do to educate a child in the light > of paramattha dhammas? > > With Metta, > Alex > > 1038 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 9:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Robert, No, I don't. ;-) I heard from the archive that you have some wonderful children and that you are a fabulous father. Please share your experience with us. Thank you. AT =========== >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear Alex, >That is a good example and great question. Do you have >any ideas yourself? >Robert >--- A T wrote: > Dear friends, > > > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming > > against the current. > > > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents > > used to force her > > siblings and herself to give so that they might > > develop the habit of giving. > > > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks > > like doing a good deeds > > with the help from others. In the above case, it > > seems that the children > > may develop resentment, more attachment to the given > > away objects, conceit, > > etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > > > What should we do to educate a child in the light > > of paramattha dhammas? > > > > With Metta, > > Alex > > > > 1039 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:04pm Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes > Thanks so much for the information > can I order the tapes through pe Ell (Ivan's wife)? Dear O, Please do, I think she will be very happy to do it, actually Ivan is on this very list, although I think he usually prefers live arguments in the English discussion group at the foundation!!! Khun Ell controls the tape machine for us sometimes as well as takes care of everyone plus the floral arragements for the whole foundation- I call her the bearer of fragrances personally. I would like also to anumodana with all your kusala cetana and for the handsome clocks as well as the tape copying machines your group sent to the foundation, the latter has been most useful and fast, about three minutes to copy a one hour tape, as I understand! Many people have benefited from both the Thai and English cassettes, this is indeed great kusala! Amara 1040 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 10:48pm Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear > 3) accumulate "Vasana" (habits ???): what you are accustomed to do, you > will keep doing, throughout lifetimes (Paccatunissaya Pacaya???) Dear Kom, First, it's great to hear from you! If I remember correctly "Vasana" according to the book 'Summary' is improper behavioral and verbal habits (including facial tics, unintentional exclamations, and things like leaping over ditches because of a former lifetime as a monkey of a bhikkhu in the Tipitaka) which can be eradicated by none but the Sammasambuddha. Hope this helps, Amara 1041 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:00pm Subject: satipatthana, how to? Leornardo asked "How do you develop satipatthana ? (sorry for the basic question )" Dear leonardo, Most definitely not a basic question and thanks for asking - I think a few of the group will be interested in this topic. Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. It can only be heard about during the rare times of a Buddha sasana. To understand its development we need to hear many details of the teachings; even then no guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to properly develop it (in this life). In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph 564 it says “In respect of the classification of the Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one consciousness and with others feeling etc.” We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw that the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try to concentrate on some of these : focus attention on body or feelings or whatever. However, as the quote from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to certain objects does not lead to detachment from the idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just a cetasika - so ephemeral. If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know that each moment is conditioned by so many different conditions and that not even one of those conditions is controllable even for an instant. You might think “ but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can decide to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;” No this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a Buddhist – can you stop believing in Buddhism. Only if there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- can you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, that are also conditioned. Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes so well about this: “Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions” He earlier explains that the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. These are the perception of seeing the ugly as beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). Satipatthana sees realities as they really are – ugly, dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana – long, long time development) is investigating and learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as they are. Does this sound easy? Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are we not sure what type of citta experienced it? Do we think it is “us” who is experiencing feeling? Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana – that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle aspects of vipallasa. Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after that moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just so many different types of citta. Now I am typing, the cittas that condition the movement of the hand are not vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching and smelling. These are all realities they are happening now again and again. How much do we know about them? They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone already. The development of satipatthana is about seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is short- we are not in the meditation center now but namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas – but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we need volition. Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce yourself into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert or leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the rapid change and the different elements doing their functions. It is like a movie - merely different frames joined together and giving the appearance of life. None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. I know the more I learn about these things the more I see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not feel that they can be quickly erased - the path seems much longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely I feel happier and more relaxed about it all. Understanding works its way once "we" get out of the way. No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. That is satipatthana. If there are not the conditions then listen more, consider more- this is essential. Learn about seeing and color- do you think this computer is real, or is there a level of panna that knows only color and hardness? This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the only time that the the deep teachings on khandas, dhatus, ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya etc. can be heard. It would be regretable not to listen. Thank you again for giving me the chance to reflect on all this. Robert 1042 From: A T Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 0:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert, Leonardo and friends, Like usual, this post from Robert is very helpful: "... The development of satipatthana is about seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is short- we are not in the meditation center now but namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas – but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we need volition. Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say 'reduce yourself into one moment'." ... "None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. I know the more I learn about these things the more I see that lobha and moha are very common." ... "Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. That is satipatthana." Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, and then dies out. When a certain of conditions are met, the corresponding cetasika will appear, just like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. That's why it's not a technique that we can learn at a meditation center. A few days ago, I noticed that my reaction to some abusive words from another driver on the road. I realized that it was only the cetasika of anger because my ear registered the sound, my hearing consciousness cognizes them as abusive words, and they were directed to me. It was amazing to see how the mind and the cetasika reacted. Perhaps, at that moment, lurking in the background, I still had some subtle thought that it was this I who saw the nama and rupa. With Metta, AT 1043 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 11:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks. Sawad dee ka khun Sukin your post is very very interesting.... As we know food is the most attachment to many people compare with the others substances such as alcohol, drugs and tabacco.it is the most difficult thing to be detaching from. There's always controversy between vegetarians and meat eaters As we progress in dhamma,(when panna is develop) one will know within oneself that "taste" is also arises and fall away rapidly as well as the other object through the other door ways:-)) uncontrollable condition whether we accepted or not.. There for, It isn't our job to try to detached from... I want to refer to the kammasakata panna (the knowledge of one's own kamma) humans and all animals has it's own kamma, whether we eat meat or vegetable should only strictly be for our health, not because we're clinging to the "taste" well I wonder how many people can do that? We all know the different from good and bad, healthy and unhealthy but how many can control our desired from arising??? Yet, the only way out is "to study" as one's progressing in develop panna, panna shall take care of everything. I hop this is not offending your point of view anumodana and again welcome aboard, O 1044 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 9, 2000 7:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:05:48 -0700 (PDT) > >Venerable Ajahn Chah said... > >"Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to >wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass >away, you can just be aware and let them run their >course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise >and water one and do not take care of the other, there >is no question which one will grow and which one will >die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) A wonderful parable. Thank you. Metta, AT 1045 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- > > Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, > and then dies out. When a > certain of conditions are met, the corresponding > cetasika will appear, just > like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. Very good Alex> > > That's why it's not a technique that we can learn > at a meditation center. > A few days ago, I noticed that my reaction to some > abusive words from > another driver on the road. I realized that it was > only the cetasika of > anger because my ear registered the sound, my > hearing consciousness cognizes > them as abusive words, and they were directed to me. > It was amazing to see > how the mind and the cetasika reacted. Perhaps, at > that moment, lurking in > the background, I still had some subtle thought that > it was this I who saw > the nama and rupa. This is the sort of investigation that needs to be done over and over. And without any hope of having a quick result. Just a small correction:hearing consciousness only hears, the later minddoor processes understand the meaning. > 1046 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > > Yes, the cetasika rises up, does its function, > > and then dies out. When a > > certain of conditions are met, the corresponding > > cetasika will appear, just > > like the weather. Uncontrollable. No self. > > Very good Alex> ... > This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > done over and over. And without any hope of having a > quick result. Robert, doesn't this 'hope' (bhava tanha, maybe?) also arise and subside uncontrollably, according to conditions? 1047 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:50am Subject: Venerable Ajahn Chah Thank you m. nease ! Leonardo > Dear Leonardo and Alex, > > I thought you might appreciate this parallel to Alex's > good words: > > Venerable Ajahn Chah said... > > "Through right practice, you allow your old kamma to > wear itself out. Knowing how things arise and pass > away, you can just be aware and let them run their > course. It is like having two trees: if you fertilise > and water one and do not take care of the other, there > is no question which one will grow and which one will > die." (Thanks to Siew Mun Ang) 1048 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear Robert, > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about > this sutta. > The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the > translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles > translation of this term to one I read that had > Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of > monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus > had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have > been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. > > The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga > bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary > person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because > they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > > I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would > be good to ask him to translate this also rather than > just give a very brief note as he did. We are > painfully short of commentarial translations whereas > this sutta has been translated several times already. > > Nina translated part of it: > The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are > often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. > Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless > (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body > i.e.cetasikas) > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) > penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas > (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas > (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta > (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with > vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which > penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level > of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. Thank you for posting these explanations ! Leonardo > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > > Mahacunda was living in > > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > > Mahacunda addressed the > > monks: "Monks!" > > > > "Yes, friend." > > > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > > the Dhamma that harass > > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > > 'Those meditators, they > > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice for > > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > > the welfare, the good, and > > the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > > harass and disparage the > > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > > 'Those monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > > unsteady, talkative and > > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > > with minds wandering and > > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > > to the Dhamma for? On > > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > > nor the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice > > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > > for the welfare, the good, > > and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma speak delightful > > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > > not speak delightful to > > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > > monks, nor the monks who > > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > > Moreover, they do not > > practice for the good and well-being of the > > multitude, nor for the welfare, > > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > > delightful only to other > > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > > monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > > to the Dhamma, nor the > > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > > do not practice for the > > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > > welfare, the good, and the > > well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma should train > > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > > manner to the meditation > > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is > > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > > dwells having personally > > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > > friends, the meditation monks > > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > > delightful manner to the > > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > > train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > > extraordinary person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees." > > > > Notes: > > > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > > the Dhamma are called > > this because they expound the teachings, and the > > monks who are meditators > > are called this simply because they meditate(or > > dwell in mental absorption). > > > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > > This is a passage which is > > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > > meditation practice. It > > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > > remark to cause virtuous > > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > > opportunity, and in sutta > > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > > while being obsessed by the > > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > > unknown to me, I have > > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > > rendering these with > > their literal meanings. > > > > 3. nibbana > > Sean > > > > 1049 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear Leonardo, Thought you might also appreciate this look at the way different 'types' got along in the Buddha's day--if you haven't read it before--Sean's great translation reminded me of it. It's from Sanghadisesa (pardon my spelling!) VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, translated by I.B. Horner: "Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for those monks who belonged to the same company. For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma with one another." For those monks who were musers he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will not disturb one another." For those monks who lived indulging in low talk and who were athletic he assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These reverend ones will live according to their pleasure." Pretty smart seven-year old! How often do we see this kind of equanimity towards those of a different bent today? --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > > I had some discussion with Nina (letter in > 1992)about > > this sutta. > > The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the > > translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer > Whittles > > translation of this term to one I read that had > > Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups > of > > monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana > Bhikkhus > > had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot > have > > been Arahant though or they would not have > disputed. > > > > The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga > > bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as > "extraordinary > > person who has > > > come to know and pierced the profound and > beneficial > > > sayings and truly > > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous > because > > they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > > > > I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It > would > > be good to ask him to translate this also rather > than > > just give a very brief note as he did. We are > > painfully short of commentarial translations > whereas > > this sutta has been translated several times > already. > > > > Nina translated part of it: > > The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they > are > > often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. > > Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the > deathless > > (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body > > i.e.cetasikas) > > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to > Dhamma) > > penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas > > (aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas > > (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta > > (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together > with > > vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which > > penetrates by considering, and also panna on the > level > > of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > > > Thank you for posting these explanations > ! > Leonardo > > > === message truncated === 1050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > ... > > Robertt wrote:> This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > > done over and over. And without any hope of having > a > > quick result." > > Mike wrote "Robert, doesn't this 'hope' (bhava tanha, maybe?) > also > arise and subside uncontrollably, according to > conditions? " Yes it does . What happens is that as panna understands that hope (tanha) for quick result is counterproductive the tendency for it(this type of tanha) to arise gradually subsides . The conditions for it are no longer so prevalent. This is a more gross example. Supposes someone thought that if they went down to the river and put their head under the water ten times a day that this would lead to nibbana. They do this for many years until they hear that this is wrong practice. They understand and stop doing it. No conditions any more for the type of akusala cetana that conditions such behaviour. > > Robert > 1051 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Robert, Your writings are so impressive. Thanks once more, Metta, Leonardo > Leornardo asked "How do you develop satipatthana ? > (sorry for the basic question )" > > Dear leonardo, > Most definitely not a basic question and thanks for > asking - I think a few of the group will be interested > in this topic. > Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. It > can only be heard about during the rare times of a > Buddha sasana. To understand its development we need > to hear many details of the teachings; even then no > guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to properly > develop it (in this life). > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 paragraph > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of the > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes place > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage (prior to > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with one > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw that > the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, feelings, > citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to try > to concentrate on some of these : focus attention on > body or feelings or whatever. However, as the quote > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. We > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > certain objects does not lead to detachment from the > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is just > a cetasika - so ephemeral. > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we know > that each moment is conditioned by so many different > conditions and that not even one of those conditions > is controllable even for an instant. You might think " > but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can decide > to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;" No > this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a > Buddhist - can you stop believing in Buddhism. Only if > there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- can > you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex > conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . > Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, that > are also conditioned. > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > xxvii writes so well about this: "Because the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions" He earlier explains that > the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. > > In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) > p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. > These are the perception of seeing the ugly as > beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent as > permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasa > are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro > satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). > Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - ugly, > dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual > seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana - > long, long time development) is investigating and > learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas as > they are. Does this sound easy? > Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of > feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It > is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day > long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? > Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it > experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are > we not sure what type of citta experienced it? > > Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing feeling? > Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - > that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think > I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we > bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these > strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle > aspects of vipallasa. > > Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after that > moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just so > many different types of citta. Now I am typing, the > cittas that condition the movement of the hand are not > vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka > cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching and > smelling. These are all realities they are happening > now again and again. How much do we know about them? > They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone > already. The development of satipatthana is about > seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is > short- we are not in the meditation center now but > namas and rupas are arising and passing away at this > moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough and > considering conditions are built up to gradually let > go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have > accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for > sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. > Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the > meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas - > but not by clinging and trying and thinking that we > need volition. > > Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce yourself > into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert or > leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the rapid > change and the different elements doing their > functions. It is like a movie - merely different > frames joined together and giving the appearance of > life. None of the elements, the different cetasikas > and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do > this or that. They are merely carrying out there > function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or > to crave and so many other elements with different > functions. > > I know the more I learn about these things the more I > see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not feel > that they can be quickly erased - the path seems much > longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely I > feel happier and more relaxed about it all. > Understanding works its way once "we" get out of the > way. > No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. > Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If there > are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in > conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the other > kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it is. > That is satipatthana. > If there are not the conditions then listen more, > consider more- this is essential. Learn about seeing > and color- do you think this computer is real, or is > there a level of panna that knows only color and > hardness? > This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the only > time that the the deep teachings on khandas, dhatus, > ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya etc. > can be heard. It would be regretable not to listen. > > Thank you again for giving me the chance to reflect on > all this. > Robert > > 1052 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:04pm Subject: Re: satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: Dear Robert, > This is the sort of investigation that needs to be > done over and over. And without any hope of having a > quick result. Thanks for your encouragement. And oh yes, without any hope or expectation. That's the key for me. > Just a small correction:hearing consciousness only > hears, the later minddoor processes understand the > meaning. Thank you again. With Metta and fun, AT 1053 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 1:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear leornardo, My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. My understanding is almost all at the theoretical level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms writings and letters - but how well I really understand them is another matter. So many levels of understanding even at the theoretical level. Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is dangerous. Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. Robert --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > Your writings are so impressive. > > Thanks once more, > Metta, > Leonardo > > > > > Leornardo asked "How do you develop > satipatthana ? > > (sorry for the basic question )" > > > > Dear leonardo, > > Most definitely not a basic question and thanks > for > > asking - I think a few of the group will be > interested > > in this topic. > > Satipatthana is only taught by a surpreme Buddha. > It > > can only be heard about during the rare times of a > > Buddha sasana. To understand its development we > need > > to hear many details of the teachings; even then > no > > guarantee that enough wisdom is acquired to > properly > > develop it (in this life). > > > > In the "Dispeller of Delusion"(PTS) p 137 > paragraph > > 564 it says "In respect of the classification of > the > > Foundations of Mindfulness. And this also takes > place > > in multiple consciousness in the prior stage > (prior to > > supramundane). For it lays hold of the body with > one > > consciousness and with others feeling etc." > > We might have read the satipatthana sutta and saw > that > > the Buddha classified objects into 4: body, > feelings, > > citta, mind objects. And then we might decide to > try > > to concentrate on some of these : focus attention > on > > body or feelings or whatever. However, as the > quote > > from the "Dispeller" indicates at one moment sati > > takes feelings as an object and at another rupa. > We > > will perhaps see that trying to make sati go to > > certain objects does not lead to detachment from > the > > idea of self. We might also remember that sati is > just > > a cetasika - so ephemeral. > > > > If we have understood Abhidhamma correctly we > know > > that each moment is conditioned by so many > different > > conditions and that not even one of those > conditions > > is controllable even for an instant. You might > think " > > but I can decide to get up or sit down; I can > decide > > to be a Buddhist or not; I can decide to be good;" > No > > this is just appearance, delusion. Try not to be a > > Buddhist - can you stop believing in Buddhism. > Only if > > there are the conditions to stop. Try to be bad- > can > > you hit somebody now, for example? Only if complex > > conditions condition that type of akusala cetana . > > Even then cetana is assisted by other factors, > that > > are also conditioned. > > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > > xxvii writes so well about this: "Because the > > functions of the elements give rise to the > concepts of > > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > > deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that > has > > to be taken while the deed is being performed to > its > > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > > 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these > four > > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their > existence. > > But the elements have not the time or span of > duration > > to carry out such functions" He earlier explains > that > > the rapididty of change is beyond calculation. > > > > In the netti-pakarana (translated as the Guide, > PTS) > > p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of > view. > > These are the perception of seeing the ugly as > > beautiful, the dukkha as sukkha, the impermanent > as > > permanent and the not self as self. These > vipallasa > > are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro > > satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). > > Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - > ugly, > > dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a > gradual > > seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana > - > > long, long time development) is investigating and > > learning the characteristics of paramattha dhammas > as > > they are. Does this sound easy? > > Perhaps we think we already know the > characteristic of > > feeling. After all feeling arises with every > citta. It > > is arising now. All of us experience it almost all > day > > long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? > > Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but > is it > > experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or > are > > we not sure what type of citta experienced it? > > > > Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing > feeling? > > Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - > > that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we > think > > I am having insight? Do we think sati is something > we > > bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these > > strong vipallasa but there are much more subtle > > aspects of vipallasa. > > > > Now there is seeing, were the javana cittas after > that > > moment of seeing kusala or akusala? There are just > so > > many different types of citta. Now I am typing, > the > > cittas that condition the movement of the hand are > not > > vipaka (result) they are different from the vipaka > > cittas that are seeing, hearing tasting touching > and > > smelling. These are all realities they are > happening > > now again and again. How much do we know about > them? > > They are anatta, uncontrollable, aniccum, gone > > already. The development of satipatthana is about > > seeing these dhammas now,as they appear. Life is > > short- we are not in the meditation center now but > > namas and rupas are arising and passing away at > this > > moment. There is nothing else. By hearing enough > and > > considering conditions are built up to gradually > let > > go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have > > accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for > > sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are > now. > > Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the > > meditation center there can be awareness of > dhammas - > > but not by clinging and trying and thinking that > we > > need volition. > > > > Both NinaVG and Khun sujin often say "reduce > yourself > > into one moment". That is it. There is no Robert > or > > leornardo - that is the illusion formed by the > rapid > > change and the different elements doing their > > functions. It is like a movie - merely different > > frames joined together and giving the appearance > of > > life. None of the elements, the different > cetasikas > > and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to > do > > this or that. They are merely carrying out there > > function - which is to know, or to hear, or to > see, or > > to crave and so many other elements with different > > functions. > > > > I know the more I learn about these things the > more I > > see that lobha and moha are very common. I do not > feel > > that they can be quickly erased - the path seems > much > > longer and harder than when I began. Yet strangely > I > > feel happier and more relaxed about it all. > > Understanding works its way once "we" get out of > the > > way. > > No technique. No shortcuts. No special lifestyle. > > Paramattha dhammas are in us and around us. If > there > > are sufficient conditions then panna will arise in > > conjunction with sati, samadhi, effort and the > other > > kusala cetasikas and understand one moment as it > is. > > That is satipatthana. > > If there are not the conditions then listen more, > > consider more- this is essential. Learn about > seeing > > and color- do you think this computer is real, or > is > > there a level of panna that knows only color and > > hardness? > > This is the time of a Buddhasasana - it is the > only > > time that the the deep teachings on khandas, > dhatus, > > ayatanas; on paticusamupada and the 24 paccaya > etc. > > can be heard. It would be regretable not to > listen. > > > > Thank you again for giving me the chance to > reflect on > > all this. > > Robert > > 1054 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert: I agree that sometimes we're overestimating our ability in many ways, but when it comes to dhamma it's hard (at least for me) to think that someone who respond spontaneously and thoroughly with their explanations would not we wise as we assume. in any way, I do appreciated your contributions,comment,etc.. and especially your knowledge in dhamma. keep up with your kusala jitta and panna jatasika:-)) Sincerely, O 1055 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:52pm Subject: Traps along the way Dear Robert, sounds like a game my students play on the computer trying to avoid the obstacles in the water on a trip down the Amazon...and yes it is like that...mana one minute, then lobha, then micha ditthi, moha, issa etc etc....all popping up ready to attack the blind...! Sarah >Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is >dangerous. >Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. >Robert 1056 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear leornardo, > My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. Dear Robert, As I understand it, panna is just panna--not yours, or Acharn Sujin's, or Leonardo's, certainly not 'mine'--not even the Buddha's. Paticcasamupada is just the way things are, even when a Buddha doesn't arise in the world to discover it. However, most of us, most of the time, have no choice but to deal with the world on a conventional level. Isn't in better, even necessary, to entertain the illusion of 'a good teacher's' panna on the way to the experience of deeply penetrated panna? That is, isn't it necessary (for most of us, most of the time), to continually exchange coarser avijjaa for more refined avijjaa? Maybe I'm wrong in this. If not then, within certain limits, isn't it OK to venerate 'supatipanno, ujuptipanno, nayapatipanno, saamiicipatipanno bhagavato saavaka sangho'? If so, then I'll continue to be impressed with 'your' and 'Acharn Sujin's', and so many 'others'' in 'this group's' panna--and thanks again to you all... mn 1057 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks. Dear Sukin, This is interesting...'free from the knots that have many faces'..a good expression. When I first met Khun Sujin, I was strictly vegetarian (and had been for years) and as we went out to different houses for lunches in Sri Lanka, I would be asking what the soup stock was and whether I could have some simple vegetables. After a couple of days, Khun Sujin just served me a little of the dishes already presented and told me (in her pleasant way ) something to the effect that consideration to the hostess and being easy to please was more important than my other concerns. I was shocked, but just ate and was no longer vegetarian! Maybe this is like the example of 'forcing' the kid to be generous. Sometimes it's the best way! Unfortunately she's never been able to help me get over my allergy to chillis..... I just feel I'm dying when I eat a chilli and no amount of consideration for the hostess helps! Thanks again, Sarah >Dear group members, >Thanks for your warm welcome. >I will send questions when the time comes, but for now I will try >to "elaborate on the 'false beliefs that have been...." which Sarah >asked about. >I do not know if I will be able to express myself well enough, since >I do know for sure that I am most of the time very muddled and >inarticulate.Anyway here is what I have to say; >Before hearing anything about nama & rupa, I had always thought that >'meditation' was the *only* way to understanding. Not only did I >think that 'vipassana' meditation as taught by S.N.Goenka for example, >and 'mahamudra',and 'za zen' were 'valid'vehicles to the understanding >of reality, but I also had the firm belief that a person *intent* on >understanding 'truth', may start off with a 'wrong' method of >meditation, but then would step by step correct him/herself and one >day come to practise the 'right' way, because he/she was looking in >the right direction ie., inwards. >I now know that dhamma is here and now, if I miss this moment with >the aim of understanding future moments, I am conditioning myself to >*not look now*.Any formal meditation session would be a time *arrived* >and when over, an act *achieved*.Also the "*intent* on understanding >'truth'" is momentary and anatta, who knows what citta & cetasikas >will arise causing the mind to be diverted from *seeking* truth, and >what is this *seeking*;'conditions for further diversions.' >As Ajahn Sujin once said, "to know is better than not to know" >and as I said in my last post,'the truth sets you free', free from >knots that have many faces. >Another matter concerns a decision six months ago, to stop drinking >alcohol and eating meat.To stop alcohol intake was obviously >necessary, to become a vegetarian was partly because I was tired of >my obsession about food.Instead of eating in order to be able to move >on and do other things,I ate a good meal at the *end* of whatever >activity I did.So becoming a vegetarian was in order so that I may >not >be so attached to food.Another reason was, thinking that it was more >'spiritual', reasoning along the lines of Hindus and Mahayanists. >I even told myself that it was alright for monks to eat meat, because >they had no choice, and that as a layperson,I had the freedom to >choose; afterall vegetables in Thailand are in abundance. >I realized and did expect of becoming attached to certain vegetarian >foods,(for instance,I had at one time, four different kinds of cheese >in my refrigerator), but I overlooked other ways in which I was bound. >Such as feeling somewhat self-righteous. But on the first day of my >visit to the foundation, I bought a tape in Thai called,when >translated,"the Buddha ate meat" by A.Sujin. >After hearing this tape,one evening at dinner,I took a small piece of >chicken from my son's plate and ate it. I didn't like it but I didn't >dislike it either. Now I do not fancy meat any more, but I take a >small bite for taste from time to time; and I feel *free*. >This is how I think,I have benefited from this group, and from this >I see the promise of more 'freedom from bondage'. >What do you think? >Sorry for the long post. > Metta, > >Sukin > > > > > 1058 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 3:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Alex, With small children, I find, often you have to just give strict rules, 'don't touch the heater, do this, do that, share the sweets etc'. As they get older, they tend to question the rules if they don't make sense and one can begin to include more explanation. Some children readily appreciate that it's good to give and share, others resent it and don't agree. Sometimes it's still appropriate to 'force' them. I have a rule in my classrom that anything edible has to be shared around. Some children just don't like it, but they all understand the rules. Each child is different, some will respond well to being 'forced' to give when they are young and establish good habits. Some will truly resent it and make it an excuse not to give in adult life. I have twins in one class and no one here will be surprised to read they are opposites in this regard. Ken just gives without being asked and looks for opportunities to help others. Villy, the twin brother pulls a face no matter what explanation I give. I believe kids need, respect and like rules, but as they get older it's good to give whatever dhamma explanation at whatever level they can appreciate. They can learn to be considerate, polite and treat others as they would like. They can be nurtured in an environment where dhamma books and talks are the norm and slowly (like us) may begin to understand a little more about realities and the value of developing all kinds of kusala. Sometimes they need to hear it from someone other than the parent too! Some kids have the opposite problem: they are inclined to share but are discouraged by their parents! I don't know if this helps at all... Sarah p.s I teach children from 6 yrs - 19 yrs old, 6 days a week, 11 months a year and have done so for decades! (I'm an English teacher and psychologist)....fitting in this list is my challenge right now! >Dear friends, > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her >siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of >giving. > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good >deeds >with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children >may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, >etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha >dhammas? > >With Metta, >Alex > > > >From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" > > > >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation > >Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 19:57:36 CST > > > >Dear Leonardo & friends, > > > >I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation > >of > >sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in >the > >articles by B.Bodhi. He suggests the level of understanding will be >limited > >by the level of sila established too. > > > >1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice >i.e. > >first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of >self. > > > >2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or >are > >very generous. However if there is no understanding and a teacher they > >respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may >change > >this good behaviour. > > > >3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the > >wholesome tendencies to grow. > > > >4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any > >knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the >moments > >of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can > >be > >very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more >finely > >attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much >of > >what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a >friend, > >how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa > >and > >moha? > > > >5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation > >or > >a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations > >it > >shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we >don't > >talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no > >situations. > > > >6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. We all > >have > >different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use >the > >term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember > >stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when > >they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. > > > >7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's > >understanding had to develop to this high level. > > > > > >Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without > >comprehending > >that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer >actions. > > > >Robert, I appreciated the reminders about stinginess being eradicated >with > >wrong practice. Yes, don't we so often think we lose something when we >give > >money, time or possessions? Thanks! > > > >Sarah > > 1059 From: amara chay Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:30pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation > p.s I teach children from 6 yrs - 19 yrs old, 6 days a week, 11 months a > year and have done so for decades! (I'm an English teacher and > psychologist)....fitting in this list is my challenge right now! Dear Sarah, I have often wondered how a psychologist would view Buddhism, in fact I think within the Sankha there is the rule that any bhikkhu who has transgressed the vinaya has to proclaim it to his group or something like that which sounded to me much like modern group therapy or whatever. What are your views on this? Thanks in advance, Amara 1060 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu --- "m. nease" wrote: > I've been under the impression that, after nibbana, > khandhas (sankhata) continue to arise, but are no > longer subject to upaadaana. Am I wrong about this? Mike As we know, citta experiences nibbana (momentarily) at each of the stages of enlightenment. Clinging to sensous objects (kamupadana) is eradicted only at the stage of anagami. So I suppose this means that the kkhandas continue to be the object of clinging for the sotapanna. Jonothan 1061 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:59pm Subject: Re: Thanks. --- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > ...Khun Sujin just served me a little of the dishes already > presented and told me (in her pleasant way)something to the effect > that consideration to the hostess and being easy to please was more > important than my other concerns Dear Sarah, Sukinder, et al., I don't want to stir up a vegetarianism controversey (they can be extraordinarily passionate and long-lived!), but I'd like to recommend Dr. Viktor Gunasekara's superb article @ http://members.nbci.com/budtoday/english/veg/009-budveg.htm 1062 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Mike > By the way, I've noticed that the term > 'accumulations' is often used in the group's > correspondence. Does this refer to vipaka? > Sankhaara? Both? Neither? Yes, there are some terms we have been using for so long that we forget they are not standard use! Thanks for raising this. "Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various tendencies we all have that make up the distinct personality and character by which we are conventionally known. For example, our preferences for particular tastes or colours, our good and bad qualities, the way we walk and talk and so on. Being easily angered or being interested in the dhamma would be other examples. They are called accumulations because, of course, they have been accumulated during the past. The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala inclinations we have accumulated. They come in different strengths, the subtle ones being the latent tendencies referred to in Kom’s post. Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among other ways) by the citta which immediately precedes it, each citta contains the sum of all previous cittas. So in fact there is much more that is accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to. I hope this makes sense. Jonothan 1063 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:52pm Subject: Re: satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear leornardo, > My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. > My understanding is almost all at the theoretical > level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I > paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms > writings and letters - but how well I really > understand them is another matter. > So many levels of understanding even at the > theoretical level. > Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is > dangerous. > Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. > Robert > --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > > > Your writings are so impressive. > > > > Thanks once more, > > Metta, > > Leonardo Dear Robert, I agree with Leonardo that you write very well. It's because you understand the subject well. Otherwise, there's no way that you can express yourself with so much conviction and so well articulation. A trick that someone can talk in the public without shyness is because the speaker understands the subject well, and he feels that he must share it with the audience. Please continue to guide us. This group is interesting and educating thanks to a lot of contributors, and the main one is you. That's how I understood what Leonardo meant, anyway. With appreciation, Alex Tran 1064 From: m. nease Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > "Accumulations" as I used it refers to those various > tendencies we all have that make up the distinct > personality and character by which we are > conventionally known. I'm in the habit of thinking of this as the sankhaara aggregate, usually (or sometimes) translated as 'mental formations'. Am I off the beam here? I'm not trying to split hairs--just want to make sure of my nomenclature... > For example, our preferences > for particular tastes or colours, our good and bad > qualities, the way we walk and talk and so on. > Being > easily angered or being interested in the dhamma > would > be other examples. This touches on another habit--I think of the present results of past kamma as 'vipaka'--Robert responded to this question in a previous post, but I'm still not clear on it. Isn't kamma just 'action' (mental, verbal and physical) and vipaka the result of the action? If so, I'm still not clear on the relationship between vipaka and sankhaara. Or am I totally off base on both of these terms? > They are called accumulations > because, of course, they have been accumulated > during > the past. ...understood... > The defilements (kilesas) are those akusala > inclinations we have accumulated. They come in > different strengths, the subtle ones being the > latent > tendencies referred to in Kom’s post. ...also understood... > Actually, since every citta is conditioned (in among > other ways) by the citta which immediately precedes > it, each citta contains the sum of all previous > cittas. So in fact there is much more that is > accumulated than the tendencies I have referred to. ...also understood. > I hope this makes sense. It does. If I understand you correctly, pretty much any past conditioning affecting the present falls under the heading 'accumulations'. So it could refer to any of a number of different Pali terms...? Thank you for the help with this. I'd also like to express my gratitude to everyone in this group. I feel like I've been wandering in the wilderness for about thirty years, sometimes in the right direction, sometimes (more often!) not, and have suddenly stumbled upon a group of intrepid scouts who not only know exactly where they're going, but have a detailed map! What a relief... mn 1065 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:17pm Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thank you for the help with this. I'd also like to > express my gratitude to everyone in this group. I > feel like I've been wandering in the wilderness for > about thirty years, sometimes in the right direction, > sometimes (more often!) not, and have suddenly > stumbled upon a group of intrepid scouts who not only > know exactly where they're going, but have a detailed > map! What a relief... > > mn Dear Mike and friends, Me, too. I've been wandering around for awhile. Last year, finally, a visiting monk came to teach us Abhidhamma for a month and a half due to his compassion to help us understand Buddhism more. This year, we just have a new resident monk from Thailand teaching us Abhidhamma again. This new monk knew Khun Sujin and admired her very much. I feel that my accumulations must be good! With Metta, AT 1066 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Somanassa vedana Dear Sarah, Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this topic again. I am wondering how to rationalize/understand why the element such as Vedana has different chracteristics one moment to antother. Could it be: 1) As they arise and fall in different moments: by being not the same, they are different. 2) They are conditioned by the other paramatha dhammas arising and falling at the same time. Kusala somanassa vedana is more calm than akusala somanassa vedana because kusala somassa is conditioned by Cittapassati and Kayapassati, whereas akuasla somassa is conditioned by Uddhaca. Kusala somanassa is more similar to other kusala somanassa because of the different sadharrana cetasikas: one kusala, and the other akusala. 3) They have differences based on the sense doors (eye, ear, nose, tounge, body, and mind), time (past, present, future). How is Vedana 108 classified? (based on 3 vedana x 6 sense door x 3 time x 2 something ???) 4) They have differences because they expierence differnt aramanas 5) In short (consolidating some of the above), they are conditioned by the different pacaya. This where the appreciation of Buddha's panna comes in: being able to explain such refined realities. kom --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Just as all visible objects are different from each other, appear > differently but share certain characteristics, so it is with > somanassa > vedana (pleasant feeling) or and other realities. All kusala > somanassa > vedanas are different from each other but share certain > characteristics > which differentiate them from akusala somanassa vedanas. > 1067 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:30pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation Dear Sarah, Thank you for the wonderful answer. It explains very well. With Metta, AT -- "Sarah Procter Abbott" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > With small children, I find, often you have to just give strict rules, > 'don't touch the heater, do this, do that, share the sweets etc'. As they > get older, they tend to question the rules if they don't make sense and one > can begin to include more explanation. Some children readily appreciate that > it's good to give and share, others resent it and don't agree. Sometimes > it's still appropriate to 'force' them. I have a rule in my classrom that > anything edible has to be shared around. Some children just don't like it, > but they all understand the rules. > > Each child is different, some will respond well to being 'forced' to give > when they are young and establish good habits. Some will truly resent it and > make it an excuse not to give in adult life. I have twins in one class and > no one here will be surprised to read they are opposites in this regard. Ken > just gives without being asked and looks for opportunities to help others. > Villy, the twin brother pulls a face no matter what explanation I give. > > I believe kids need, respect and like rules, but as they get older it's good > to give whatever dhamma explanation at whatever level they can appreciate. > They can learn to be considerate, polite and treat others as they would > like. They can be nurtured in an environment where dhamma books and talks > are the norm and slowly (like us) may begin to understand a little more > about realities and the value of developing all kinds of kusala. Sometimes > they need to hear it from someone other than the parent too! > > Some kids have the opposite problem: they are inclined to share but are > discouraged by their parents! > > I don't know if this helps at all... > > Sarah > > p.s I teach children from 6 yrs - 19 yrs old, 6 days a week, 11 months a > year and have done so for decades! (I'm an English teacher and > psychologist)....fitting in this list is my challenge right now! > > > >Dear friends, > > > > Living with dhamma is like a fish swimming against the current. > > > > One of my Buddhist friends said that her parents used to force her > >siblings and herself to give so that they might develop the habit of > >giving. > > > > Being "forced" to give away your possession looks like doing a good > >deeds > >with the help from others. In the above case, it seems that the children > >may develop resentment, more attachment to the given away objects, conceit, > >etc, while generosity may be developed or may not. > > > > What should we do to educate a child in the light of paramattha > >dhammas? > > > >With Metta, > >Alex 1068 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 0:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear group, More on sila. Most of us think that we are keeping sila whenever we are not breaking the precepts. However, sila ( a type of cetasika ) - arises only for an extremely short moment and then falls away. When we are not doing anything bad , for example sitting cross-legged watching the breath is there sila? It depends. Moha is not sila, nor is lobha. If we are concentrated on the breath with subtle attachment then there is no sila. When a mosquito comes and we deliberately don’t kill it then those moments of abstaining from killing are sila. But are they kusala with panna or kusala without panna?. If we heard from our teacher that we shouldn’t kill them (and follow simply because we think that the practice depends on it we are doing it without wisdom). If we abstain because we have heard about the teachings of kamma (for example) then there is a level of wisdom that is higher. There are higher levels again if there has been penetration at the level of satipatthana. Or if there is understanding at the level of sammattha one will see that killing is rooted in dosa, or that it is conditioned by attachment to self. There are so many ways that sila can be kept. Someone might not kill because they think god will punish them. Or someone might not kill because it is a bad omen. In these examples the condition for abstaining from killing was miccha-ditthi, wrong view. Does it surprise us that miccha-ditthi can condition kusala? This has all been explained in intricate detail in the Patthana - and we can see that it is just like this in daily life. For what reasons do we keep the precepts? We should examine carefully and learn about our motivations - who knows what reasons we will find. In the visudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as restraint and one of the ways is restraint by mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says "he guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. And later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on and then repeats for the other doorways. This is sila at the level of satipatthana. When we are lost in the world of concept then the "eyefaculty is unguarded" Note that these quotes all come from the beginning of the section about sila in the visuddhimagga (the Visuddhimagga is divided into three sections -sila, samadhi and panna). It might seem when we see this division and hear that sila is the foundation that first we perfect sila, then samattha and later panna. However, as we see, right at the beginning of sila we have satipatthana explained. What does it mean "On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which , if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of covetnousness and grief might invade ". This is our normal life - after seeing immediately concepts are formed up of people and things. It is avijja - no sila. But when there is the satipatthana, even at the very beginning level, there is some understanding of the visible object as merely visible object, colours (no being, no object). And that is sila of a high degree. When can we have this type of sila? Whenever there is this level of understanding. Once I was speaking to some friends in thailand about aspects of the Dhamma. When it was time to leave one of them asked me what I was doing that evening. I knew she had a certain conception of how a "Dhamma" person should act so I said "I might go to a karaoke". She thought I was joking but I said I was certainly serious. She said she was very disapointed.(I should add that karaoke in thailand tend to be rather salacious -with most of the videos having bikini clad woman) I said nothing then but the next time we met I talked a little more about the nature of satipatthana. That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) and that is more valuable than any outward appearance of sila. Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana arise in a karaoke? It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? see you tommorow Robert 1069 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Now, to conclude this long story, how can > satipatthana > arise in a karaoke? In the same way that it can arise in a sala: By way of appamada and sampajanna. In my case, under those circumstances, via dhammanupassana, specifically of the nivaranas! 1070 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Suppose someone thought that if they went down to > the river and put their head under the water ten > times a day that this would lead to nibbana. They do > this for many years until they hear that this is > wrong practice. They understand and stop doing it. > No conditions any more for the type of akusala > cetana that conditions such behaviour. Ha! Not so far-fetched...I've come close myself... Thanks again... mn 1071 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:55am Subject: Re: sila as foundation Dear Robert, Thanks for posting this message. You don't know how much I appreciate (this is lobha, mind you...) the detailed and precise discussion about the poramatha dhamma in this group. And here is something to remind myself. Satipatthana can arise anywhere when there are conditions for it to arise. This can be during speaking, talking, eating, walking, sitting, lying down, sitting cross-legged or not, being angry, being sad, being eaten (there is a suttra about a Bikkhu being enlightened as being eaten by a tiger), being hurt (there is more than one sutra about Bikkhus being englightened as being killed by pregnant? cows), sleeping, and even in a "Vipassana" sala. In a karaoke, there are plenty of poramatha dhammas arising and falling: sound, sight, hotness, coldness, hardness, softness, lobha, mana, etc. Scantily-cladded women (also a story about Bikkhu being enlightened while being apporached by a seducer) and even hearing akusala-vipaka (come to the bay area study group's Karaoke session sometimes!!!) is not enough to prevent Satipathana from arising. I believe (what I believe is often wrong) it is possible for Satipathana citta to occasionally arise in a "Vipassana" sala. However, because of the refined kilesa, as Robert kept reminding us, and not so refined kilesa, there may not be panna arising knowing what the true characteristic of Sati is and knowing that the self is accumulating lobha of wanting to know, and possibly accumulating wrong-practice, ultimately preventing nibbhana. If that is the case, then further development of Sati in such a state is close to impossible. I am sorry I have not been able to quote so precisely from the sources, as I am quite lacking in English materials. Is there a web site publishing the English version of the tipitikas? There is one in Thai... kom --- Robert Kirkpatrick > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana > arise in a karaoke? > 1072 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance >of sila. >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana >arise in a karaoke? > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? >see you tommorow >Robert > With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is very strong at that moment. Now, I have a question. I know a cult whose leader teaches to a large crowd of believers. He often goes to Las Vegas to "save lost souls" there. Those "souls" are the ones who killed themselves after a big loss, or the "evil" spririts hanging around those casinos. His believers say that their teacher is working very hard while losing/gaining money at the roulette table, for example. I believe that somehow, we have to set limit to ourselves so that those cultists can see the differences between Buddhists and those cult leaders. After all, it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to separate the true ones from the cons. With Metta, AT 1073 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation --- protectID wrote: > I believe (what I believe is often wrong) ...ditto... > it is > possible for > Satipathana > citta to occasionally arise in a "Vipassana" sala. ...sure... > However, because > of > the refined kilesa, as Robert kept reminding us, and > not so refined > kilesa, there may not be panna arising knowing what > the true > characteristic of Sati is and knowing that the self > is accumulating > lobha > of wanting to know, and possibly accumulating > wrong-practice, > ultimately preventing nibbhana. If that is the > case, then further > development of Sati in such a state is close to > impossible. ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer. Because in the sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe... How interesting. 1074 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation That is IT. These are not easy points to see.I think I see early retirement coming on. Keep it up. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > > --- protectID wrote: > > > I believe (what I believe is often wrong) > > ...ditto... > > > it is > > possible for > > Satipathana > > citta to occasionally arise in a "Vipassana" sala. > > > ...sure... > > > However, because > > of > > the refined kilesa, as Robert kept reminding us, > and > > not so refined > > kilesa, there may not be panna arising knowing > what > > the true > > characteristic of Sati is and knowing that the > self > > is accumulating > > lobha > > of wanting to know, and possibly accumulating > > wrong-practice, > > ultimately preventing nibbhana. If that is the > > case, then further > > development of Sati in such a state is close to > > impossible. > > ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer. Because in the > sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe... > > How interesting. > 1075 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear group, Thank you for the fine answers to my question (about how satipatthana can occur at a karoke)from Alex, mn, and Kom. Kom you explain things very, very well. I was interested in this from Alex: "we should not be fooled by the look of a karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is very strong at that moment." This is indeed possible. The fact that you understand this Alex is rather wonderful. As we have mentioned a few times (repeatedly?) on this list, cittas are changing fast. In between moments with akusala cittas(unwholesome moments) panna and sati can be popping in and out that are aware very briefly of some reality. And we cannot tell by looking at someone whether this is occuring. In the visuddhimagga they give an example of the type of monk who has very strong tendencies towords lobha (desire, attachment). This type of monk walks very carefully and studiously. He moves beautifully and his robe is always kept properly and so on. As I read it this monk has all the outer appearance that we might expect of an arahant. We can see that we can't know about people by outer behaviour. We can only know ourselves- and in the begginning the moments of sati may be so few and so weak that it is not clear even to ourselves. Which is better: 1. a few moments of true sati and sampajanna (even if only very weak) coming in at a time when we are highly agitated and seemingly distracted, or 2.a whole year of calm and serenity but with no real sati and panna? Robert (If you went for the serenity take off three marks.) --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > > More on sila. Most of us think that we are keeping > sila whenever we are not breaking the precepts. > However, sila ( a type of cetasika ) - arises only > for > an extremely short moment and then falls away. When > we > are not doing anything bad , for example sitting > cross-legged watching the breath is there sila? It > depends. Moha is not sila, nor is lobha. If we are > concentrated on the breath with subtle attachment > then > there is no sila. > When a mosquito comes and we deliberately don’t kill > it then those moments of abstaining from killing are > sila. But are they kusala with panna or kusala > without > panna?. If we heard from our teacher that we > shouldn’t > kill them (and follow simply because we think that > the > practice depends on it we are doing it without > wisdom). > > If we abstain because we have heard about the > teachings of kamma (for example) then there is a > level > of wisdom that is higher. There are higher levels > again if there has been penetration at the level of > satipatthana. Or if there is understanding at the > level of sammattha one will see that killing is > rooted > in dosa, or that it is conditioned by attachment to > self. > > There are so many ways that sila can be kept. > Someone might not kill because they think god will > punish them. Or someone might not kill because it is > a > bad omen. In these examples the condition for > abstaining from killing was miccha-ditthi, wrong > view. > Does it surprise us that miccha-ditthi can condition > kusala? This has all been explained in intricate > detail in the Patthana - and we can see that it is > just like this in daily life. For what reasons do we > keep the precepts? We should examine carefully and > learn about our motivations - who knows what reasons > we will find. > > In the visudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as > restraint and one of the ways is restraint by > mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says "he > guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of the > eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. > And > later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with > the > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > particulars through which , if he left the eye > faculty > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he enters > upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on and > then repeats for the other doorways. > This is sila at the level of satipatthana. When we > are > lost in the world of concept then the "eyefaculty is > unguarded" Note that these quotes all come from the > beginning of the section about sila in the > visuddhimagga (the Visuddhimagga is divided into > three > sections -sila, samadhi and panna). It might seem > when > we see this division and hear that sila is the > foundation that first we perfect sila, then samattha > and later panna. However, as we see, right at the > beginning of sila we have satipatthana explained. > > What does it mean "On seeing a visible object with > the > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > particulars through which , if he left the eye > faculty > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > covetnousness and grief might invade ". This is our > normal life - after seeing immediately concepts are > formed up of people and things. It is avijja - no > sila. But when there is the satipatthana, even at > the > very beginning level, there is some understanding of > the visible object as merely visible object, colours > (no being, no object). And that is sila of a high > degree. > > When can we have this type of sila? Whenever there > is > this level of understanding. > Once I was speaking to some friends in thailand > about > aspects of the Dhamma. When it was time to leave one > of them asked me what I was doing that evening. I > knew > she had a certain conception of how a "Dhamma" > person > should act so I said "I might go to a karaoke". She > thought I was joking but I said I was certainly > serious. She said she was very disapointed.(I > should > add that karaoke in thailand tend to be rather > salacious -with most of the videos having bikini > clad > woman) I said nothing then but the next time we met > I > talked a little more about the nature of > satipatthana. > That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a > karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher > sila) > and that is more valuable than any outward > appearance > of sila. > Now, to conclude this long story, how can > satipatthana > arise in a karaoke? > > It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to > give > an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? > see you tommorow > Robert 1076 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear AT, Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak the truth and lies: Don't be "attached" to: 1) what you have heard 2) the saying being passed down 3) the news 4) what is in the book 5) your own guessing 6) your own thinking 7) your logics 8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own thinking/liking?) 9) what the "believeable" source is saying 10) what your teacher is saying The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala Dhamma which has no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and knowing Kusla dhamma which has benefits and "developing" it. A. Sujin: 1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam buddha, etc.) 2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of venaya sattre, etc.) 3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is true. (poramattha dhamma, etc.) --- A T wrote: > I believe that somehow, we have to set limit to ourselves so that > those > cultists can see the differences between Buddhists and those cult > leaders. > After all, it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to separate the true > ones > from the cons. 1077 From: m. nease Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 6:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Thanks, Alex, Kom, Here's anothr tool: The Four Great References 7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying: "So be it, Lord." 8-11. Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.' "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Maha-Parinibbana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear AT, > > Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak > the truth and lies: > Don't be "attached" to: > 1) what you have heard > 2) the saying being passed down > 3) the news > 4) what is in the book > 5) your own guessing > 6) your own thinking > 7) your logics > 8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own > thinking/liking?) > 9) what the "believeable" source is saying > 10) what your teacher is saying > > The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala > Dhamma which has > no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and > knowing Kusla dhamma > which has benefits and "developing" it. > > A. Sujin: > 1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam > buddha, etc.) > 2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of > venaya sattre, etc.) > 3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is > true. (poramattha > dhamma, etc.) > > --- A T wrote: > > I believe that somehow, we have to set limit to > ourselves so that > > those > > cultists can see the differences between Buddhists > and those cult > > leaders. > > After all, it takes a lot of wisdom to be able to > separate the true > > ones > > from the cons. > 1078 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 4:12am Subject: The veggie issue Der Mike, You're most welcome to stir up anything you like! you'll notice we like 'stirrers' on the list and vegetarian ones are fine too! I really appreciate it when you and Leonardo and anyone else sends us off to relevant articles or suttas or posts them here...it's a condition for me to read more. There's plenty of 'meat' in the article in more ways than one and I found plenty of interesting points. As we know when we study more about realities, it's the citta at this moment, the cetana now, that is important. Many may think we are splitting hairs when we follow the 'Three fold rule' (unseen, unheard and unsuspected to have been killed specially for oneself), but these are like reminders to avoid any intention to harm. Thanks, Mike.....keep stirring! Sarah> >Dear Sarah, Sukinder, et al., > >I don't want to stir up a vegetarianism controversey (they can be >extraordinarily passionate and long-lived!), but I'd like to >recommend Dr. Viktor Gunasekara's superb article @ > >http://members.nbci.com/budtoday/english/veg/009-budveg.htm > > 1079 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 4:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear Amara, Well, personally, when I came across Buddhism and especially the abhidhamma, straight away it gave me all the answers I had hoped but failed to find in my psychology studies. Psychology follows scientific empirical principles and carries all the same limitations....starting with the assumption that it's all nature or nurture, nurture starting from when the baby is born and nature following the parents' genes. We know how very limited this view is and how little is understood by western science and psychology about conditions. Enough! On a more practical level, the main difference is in the encouragement of kusala....we have confidence (in your example below or the one recently quoted about the different dwellings for different kinds of monks) that these are introduced for harmony and the development of kusala. In other psychological, Life Dynamics, or Cultural revolution confession type settings, it may sound similar, but the motivation is different and the results are very different. I work in areas of language related problems and don't have any conflicts.... Thanks for the interest...I don't know that I've really answered you! Sarah > > >Dear Sarah, > >I have often wondered how a psychologist would view Buddhism, in >fact I think within the Sankha there is the rule that any bhikkhu >who has transgressed the vinaya has to proclaim it to his group or >something like that which sounded to me much like modern group >therapy or whatever. What are your views on this? > >Thanks in advance, > >Amara > 1080 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 4:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Somanassa vedana Dear Kom, Your comments sound spot on! The complete answer of course lies in the complexity of the 24 paccaya in the Patthana. Only the Buddha could know exactly all the different conditons working together to form up somanassa vedana or any other reality at this moment. Khun Sujin likes to give the example of all the ingredients in the cooking pot. Given these particular ingredients in these particular quantities at any given time, how could the broth or dish be any other? Even the order we put the ingredients in, what has just preceded the one we put in now, what will follow, what accompanies it at the same time....so many variables affecting the final taste! Keep up your good insights! Sarah >Dear Sarah, > >Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect on this topic again. > > >I am wondering how to rationalize/understand why the element such as >Vedana has different chracteristics one moment to antother. Could it >be: >1) As they arise and fall in different moments: by being not the same, >they are different. >2) They are conditioned by the other paramatha dhammas arising and >falling at the same time. Kusala somanassa vedana is more calm than >akusala somanassa vedana because kusala somassa is conditioned by >Cittapassati and Kayapassati, whereas akuasla somassa is conditioned by >Uddhaca. Kusala somanassa is more similar to other kusala somanassa >because of the different sadharrana cetasikas: one kusala, and the >other akusala. >3) They have differences based on the sense doors (eye, ear, nose, >tounge, body, and mind), time (past, present, future). How is Vedana >108 classified? (based on 3 vedana x 6 sense door x 3 time x 2 >something ???) >4) They have differences because they expierence differnt aramanas >5) In short (consolidating some of the above), they are conditioned by >the different pacaya. > >This where the appreciation of Buddha's panna comes in: being able to >explain such refined realities. > >kom 1081 From: amara chay Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 9:00pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation > Psychology follows scientific empirical principles and carries all the same > limitations....starting with the assumption that it's all nature or nurture, > nurture starting from when the baby is born and nature following the > parents' genes. We know how very limited this view is and how little is > understood by western science and psychology about conditions. Enough! Dear Sarah, Thanks, it just reconfirms how little men can comprehend compared to the Buddha's enlightenment of all things, we could never really know the realities of nama and rupa without the Buddha's teachings. Even though we think we have come a long way with the rupa part, we depend on tools and machinery built by men whereas in those days they transcended all that. I keep marveling that the Buddha talked about other worlds and planets over 2,500 yrs before Hubble and other telescopes were able to 'discover' them, only a few years ago! And since tools are not applicable, men do not know how to deal with the citta, which can not be measured by any machinery since it has no form or physical existence whatever, not even as empty space! It is really unbelieveable that he has taught the way for each to prove for themselves how life comes about and even more amazing that he taught the way to end it all, despite all the accumulations of an eternity. We're really lucky to have his teachings available, Amara 1082 From: protectID Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 5:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear group What a wonderful topic "karaoke" we used to do a lot of that (kom, I, Jack and Oii) now that we're studying dhamma, often we discuss dhamma and identify what's going on while we are singing (what a wonderful way of learning dhamma) agree? Kom. at least I myself, can reinforce what Robert said satti can arise anywhere, even in the karaoke bar. Of course satti may arise momentary along with loppa. It's only natural that we live the normal life, and be aware of what's going on in our normal daily life. as supposed to try to avoid normal routine by going to quieted place, cross the leg, and concentrate on the breathing, etc.what do we gain from doing that? how can sila be recognize if there is no satti at that moment? not only that, sila is the last 3 of the 8 folds path that take place when the highest panna arises. any feed back? group. with metta, O 1083 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 10:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Mike > I'm in the habit of thinking of this as the > sankhaara > aggregate, usually (or sometimes) translated as > 'mental formations'. Am I off the beam here? I'm > not > trying to split hairs--just want to make sure of my > nomenclature... There is no need to worry about splitting hairs. When we get down to abhidhamma terms, precision is essential! The subject of accumulations can be a difficult one to come to grips with. Accumulations are not absolute realities (paramattha dhammas), but they pertain to realities. For example, at every moment of citta with lobha, lobha is accumulated, and so our accumulations for lobha change. Put simply, it means that the tendency for lobha to arise again increases. This tendency is not itself a reality to be known by direct experience. But when strong lobha arises, it is because just such a tendency has been accumulated, so to that extent it can be experienced. When we talk about accumulations we are usually referring to accumulations in relation to cetasikas that fall within sankhara kkhanda (ie all cetasikas except vedana and sanna). So this is perhaps the connection you had in mind. > This touches on another habit--I think of the > present > results of past kamma as 'vipaka'--Robert responded > to > this question in a previous post, but I'm still not > clear on it. Isn't kamma just 'action' (mental, > verbal and physical) and vipaka the result of the > action? If so, I'm still not clear on the > relationship between vipaka and sankhaara. Or am I > totally off base on both of these terms? Kamma is even more difficult to come to terms with. I can remember that it took me some time to realise that kamma is used in different senses. Kamma can refer, for example, to: - in a general sense, an action/cause that produces a later experience/result - even more generally, the store of such actions that we have accumulated (!) in the past - in terms of absolute realities, the cetana cetasika (mental factor of volition) accompanying such action - one of the 24 conditions (paccaya), ie describing the relationship between 2 realities (kamma paccaya) (There may be other meanings too). Correspondingly, vipaka can mean: - the objects, pleasant or unpleasant, that we experience through our sense-doors - our general lot in life - the citta that experiences an object through one of the sense doors (vipaka citta) - vipaka paccaya Of these various references, only cetana cetasika (sankhara kkhanda) and vipaka citta (vinnana kkhanda) are stated in terms of paramattha dhammas. Confused? It goes with the job! > Thank you for the help with this. I'd also like to > express my gratitude to everyone in this group. I > feel like I've been wandering in the wilderness for > about thirty years, sometimes in the right > direction, > sometimes (more often!) not, and have suddenly > stumbled upon a group of intrepid scouts who not > only > know exactly where they're going, but have a > detailed > map! What a relief... We are all learning from and benefiting from the discussions that are taking place. In my own case, having lived in the virtual Dhamma desert of Hong Kong for many years, this list comes as a great blessing. Thanks for your part in making it what it is. Jonothan 1084 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > I`m not sure if I`m breaking some rule > here but I would like to post a > Dhamma-List mail from Sean Whittle. He has > translated to English the Mahacunda Sutta > (AN VI.46) about > the dhamma-practitioners and > meditation-practitioners. I think this issue is > really > an old one :-) Leonardo This is an interesting sutta. 2 sets of monks, both having attained levels of enlightenment (and in one case having also developed samatha to a high degree) disparaging each other. What I am not clear about is whether that they are disparaging each other’s behaviour/lifestyle or each other’s presumed wrong practice (I think the former). I suppose the commentary would shed some light on this. Of course, no kusala or practice of the dhamma should be disparaged. All forms of kusala are worthy of our study. At the same time, lack of developed sila or samatha should not deter us from making a start with satipatthana. Thanks for posting the translation and useful commentarial notes. Jonothan > Mahacunda Sutta > Mahacunda > AN 6.46 > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > Mahacunda was living in > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > Mahacunda addressed the > monks: "Monks!" > > "Yes, friend." > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > the Dhamma that harass > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > 'Those meditators, they > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice for > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > the welfare, the good, and > the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > harass and disparage the > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > 'Those monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > unsteady, talkative and > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > with minds wandering and > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > to the Dhamma for? On > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > What is their > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > nor the monks who are > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > they do not practice > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > for the welfare, the good, > and the well-being of gods and men. > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma speak delightful > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > not speak delightful to > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > monks, nor the monks who > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > Moreover, they do not > practice for the good and well-being of the > multitude, nor for the welfare, > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > delightful only to other > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > monks dedicated to the > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > to the Dhamma, nor the > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > do not practice for the > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > welfare, the good, and the > well-being of gods and men. > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > Dhamma should train > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > manner to the meditation > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > dwells having personally > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > friends, the meditation monks > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > delightful manner to the > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > train yourself. For what > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > extraordinary person who has > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > sayings and truly > sees." > > Notes: > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > the Dhamma are called > this because they expound the teachings, and the > monks who are meditators > are called this simply because they meditate(or > dwell in mental absorption). > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > This is a passage which is > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > meditation practice. It > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > remark to cause virtuous > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > opportunity, and in sutta > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > while being obsessed by the > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > unknown to me, I have > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > rendering these with > their literal meanings. > > 3. nibbana > Sean 1085 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Kom, Wonderful answer with details, and very logical. Thank you, Kom. You're very wise. Metta, Alex Tran =========== >From: Kom Tukovinit >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:40:52 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear AT, > >Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak the truth and lies: >Don't be "attached" to: >1) what you have heard >2) the saying being passed down >3) the news >4) what is in the book >5) your own guessing >6) your own thinking >7) your logics >8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own thinking/liking?) >9) what the "believeable" source is saying >10) what your teacher is saying > >The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala Dhamma which has >no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and knowing Kusla dhamma >which has benefits and "developing" it. > >A. Sujin: >1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam buddha, etc.) >2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of venaya sattre, etc.) >3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is true. (poramattha >dhamma, etc.) 1086 From: A T Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Mike, "But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve." Thank you for reminding me of this Discourse. Yes, we must use the Teachings of the Buddha as the measure to see if anyone's claims are trustworthy. Metta, Alex Tran ======= >From: "m. nease" >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:47:30 -0700 (PDT) > >Thanks, Alex, Kom, > >Here's anothr tool: > >The Four Great References >>Maha-Parinibbana Sutta >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html > >--- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > Dear AT, > > > > Saraha suttra: how do we separate those who speak > > the truth and lies: > > Don't be "attached" to: > > 1) what you have heard > > 2) the saying being passed down > > 3) the news > > 4) what is in the book > > 5) your own guessing > > 6) your own thinking > > 7) your logics > > 8) what matches your "ditthi" (your own > > thinking/liking?) > > 9) what the "believeable" source is saying > > 10) what your teacher is saying > > > > The rest of the sutra talked about "knowing" Akusala > > Dhamma which has > > no benefit (3 akusala hetus) and "letting go", and > > knowing Kusla dhamma > > which has benefits and "developing" it. > > > > A. Sujin: > > 1) Consider the speaker's background (sammasam > > buddha, etc.) > > 2) Consider the motivations (for the benefits of > > venaya sattre, etc.) > > 3) Consider if what the speaker says is provable, is > > true. (poramattha > > dhamma, etc.) > > 1087 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear group, Some more details about sila and satipatthana. We all see that satipatthana can even arise in such licentious locations as karaoke parlors. Mike gave an example of the nivaranas (the hindrances ,), and as he noted these are paramattha dhammas (realities). They are classified under mental objects in the satipatthana sutta and are a fine object to understand as anatta, not-self. What are some of the conditions for the hindrances. One of the most important is accumulations from the past. However, these are hard to see . What are the conditions at the present? Well one of them is object condition (arammana paccaya). Let us investigate this paccaya (condition) a little. In the karaoke place what objects are present? These include any object that arises at any of the six doors. Taking the eye-door as an example the visible object might be one of kusala vipaka (pleasant result) if the video happened to include a highly beautiful woman. Now if there no "guarding of the sense doors" what process will happen? Just to refresh on what the scriptures say: > > In the visudhimagga (I,18 ) it talks about sila as > > restraint and one of the ways is restraint by > > mindfulness. With regard to this factor it says > "he > > guards the eye faculty, enters upon restraint of > the > > eye faculty," and it repeats for the other doors. > > And > > later it says I42 "On seeing a visible object with > > the > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > particulars through which , if he left the eye > > faculty > > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > enters > > upon the way of its restraint.."..And it goes on > and > > then repeats for the other doorways. > > This is sila at the level of satipatthana. When we > > are > > lost in the world of concept then the "eyefaculty > is > > unguarded" Thus the process that occurs is that seeing experiences visible object and if there is no comprehension of reality as reality then avijja "darts among what is non-existent" (remember the quote from the udana commenatary). It takes what is only concept(beautiful woman)- for something that exists and co-arising with this is lobha (lust) a nivarana. This is paticusamupada - the wheel is spinning. It can be cut(that might be poor terminolgy) at this time (as Mike said) , momentarily if sati and sampajanna arise to understand a moment of lust as simply paramattha dhamma, not "us". Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise before the nivarana of sense desire arises. Panna can understand visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : "On seeing a visible object with > > the > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > faculty > > unguarded, evil an unprofitable states of > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > enters > > upon the way of its restraint..".. This is sila at the level of satipatthana. Can it be done? We have to find that out for ourself. If we can see this directly much doubt will be erased. If sati and panna arise at this level then there is direct understanding of color as color - the javanna cittas are mahakusala associated with panna. Then "he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil an unprofitable states..." However, impossible to hold on to such moments,. If we try to make them stay we are going against their nature. They arise according to complex conditions. This type of trying is actually upadana (grasping) of the type that clings to wrong practice. It is a subtle point: don't misunderstand. It is not that we just do nothing and somehow everything works out - that is one extreme. But so, so easy to do "something" with attachment. Only we ourselves can learn what the middle way is. So much to say about this, so much more to do. Robert 1088 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 0:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke --- protectID wrote: > Dear group > > What a wonderful topic "karaoke" > we used to do a lot of that (kom, I, Jack and Oii) > now that we're studying dhamma, > often we discuss dhamma and identify > what's going on while we are singing > (what a wonderful way of learning dhamma) > agree? Kom. > at least I myself, can reinforce what Robert said > satti can arise anywhere, even in the karaoke bar. > Dear o and others, And I see Kom mentioned it too! Wow, I thought I was avant-garde. A short story: Khun sujin listened while I was telling someone about going to karaoke and how understanding could arise in such places. She nodded (possibly) but when I asked her later what she thought she said that she gave up music and singing (at a young age) when she read the text where the Buddha says, talking to the Bhikkhus, that "singing and dancing are considered as madness in this Dhammavinaya". This made me wonder a little. A few weeks later I went with khun sujin and her sisters to a memorial service for her grendmother (I think) upcountry (I forget where- someplace with ricefields and many wats). We had a great day of discussions, going to temples, talking with monks, dana, and ceremonies. That evening we met with about 15 members of the extended family for dinner at a restaurant. I was sitting by Khun Sujin when two young relatives (around 20 years old) approached her and paid respects. After polite conversation the topic of Dhamma study came up and the boys admitted that they had little interest in it. They frankly said that they were worried that if they got involved in Dhamma that that would mean the end of all fun and frolics of the type that young men enjoy. Khun Sujin said that they misunderstood Buddhism; she said that "Robert studies and understands Dhamma but he still goes to karaoke" (I nodded sagely)....End of story. A final point: none of what we have been saying about this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke (or worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or someone who lives life fully endowed with the five strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can develop in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find that karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest after sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I mean, not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a rather simple life (no details).But the only reply she gives, if I ask why abstains from this or that is "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can tell us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but by developing understanding our own unique accumulations are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself what is suitable (for us) and what is not. Robert 1089 From: m. nease Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 7:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke wrote: > Thus the process that occurs is that seeing > experiences visible object and if there is no > comprehension of reality as reality then avijja > "darts > among what is non-existent" (remember the quote from > the udana commenatary). It takes what is only > concept(beautiful woman)- for something that exists > and co-arising with this is lobha (lust) a nivarana. > This is paticusamupada - the wheel is spinning. ...as I understand it, this could be paraphrased, 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa), pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact, desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling, clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right? > It > can > be cut(that might be poor terminolgy) at this time > (as > Mike said) , momentarily if sati and sampajanna > arise > to understand a moment of lust as simply paramattha > dhamma, not "us". ...or, again in other words, 'if vipassanaa (conditioned by sati--or appamatta) arises instead of 'clinging', then becoming can't arise depending on (nonarisen) clinging.'--does this sound about right? > Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise before the > nivarana of sense desire arises. > Panna can > understand > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : > "On > seeing a visible object with > > > the > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > > faculty > > > unguarded, [...by appamatta, I think...] > > > evil an unprofitable states of > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > > > enters > > > upon the way of its restraint..." Yes. If sampajanna arises after 'feeling' before 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no becoming.'--? > This is sila at the level of satipatthana. Can it be > done? 'Done', yes, in the sense that the conditions can be cultivated for the arising of sampajanna, (appamatta) sati and vipassanaa. Everyone, please correct me if I bungled this piece of paticcasamuppada. Robert, thanks as always...mn 1090 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Robert wrote "Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise before the > > nivarana of sense desire arises. > > Panna can > > understand > > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then : > > "On > > seeing a visible object with > > > > the > > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the > > > > particulars through which if he left the eye > > > > faculty > > > > unguarded, > > [...by appamatta, I think...] > > > > > evil an unprofitable states of > > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he > > > > enters > > > > upon the way of its restraint..." > > Mike wrote "Yes. If sampajanna arises after 'feeling' before > 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no > becoming.'--?" Dear Mike, You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding of paticusamupada into the actual experience. Nothing wrong with that - we can see this to some extent. However, remember that sati does not have to take feeling as an object. It could have taken rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment. At the moment of seeing there always only neutral feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises later. You said "arises after feeling before desire" (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise before the > > nivarana of sense desire arises ")but in reality it is happening so fast that any idea of time sequence is just an idea, a concept based on what we have heard. We can understand someting of this process but it may be counterproductive if we try to force the the theory into the actual moments. Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be paraphrased, 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa), pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact, desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling, clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right?" It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty woman- only colors ).Just for those who might think this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't think this mm!) we should understand that these processes are being repeated billions of times a second. How much we really see of it all (directly) depends on the level of panna that has acumulated. Still the more we learn about the theory of paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation into it in daily life- and that can't be bad. Robert (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha) 1091 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Dear Shin, Am just trying to get through all the e-mails and finally came across this plea for help. Unfortunately, despite the terrible emotional situation it describes, the person/persons who start these things are really sick. They play on the sympathy of others to fill up web space and the actions they perform are really evil. It is, unfortunately, a chain letter HOAX. Think about it: why should a company only finance this anguished father based on how many people send e-mails? Why don't they just finance the kid's operation if there really is such a case? They cannot put a link on how many e-mails are sent because there is no address to which all of them can be returned! Furthermore, the e-mails sent give absolutely no benefit to the company, either. If there really is such a father out there, and the daughter is indeed in serious condition in a hospital, think of the cruelty of the perpetrators of these hoaxes by putting false hopes in the mind of a frightened, vulnerable parent who cannot afford medical care! How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by such people. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:02 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA > I believe we can help this dad just by emailing. 1092 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear Mike Some further thoughts on this (Twofold Thought) sutta. Although the panna being described in the sutta is of the kind that accompanies samatha, it is nonetheless of an extremely high level, being the culmination of all the Buddha’s lives as a Bodhisattva. At this level it is indeed appropriate to describe it as a tool. But until our panna is well developed, any attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable to our own situation will surely result in the kind of wrong practice that you so well describe here and in your comments on Kom’s posting. If and when panna is well developed, it arises and performs its function (in this case, seeing the danger in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course, without having to be called upon to do so. So that brings us back to developing understanding of the reality of the present moment, regardless of the uwholesome (and unpleasant) states we may be experiencing. On the other point you mentioned, the citta arising with panna is of course a kusala citta and so there can be no akusala whatsoever at that particular moment. Jonothan > > At the moment that panna arises (‘while > > reflecting’), > > there is of course no unwholesome thought (it > > ‘subsides’). > > None at all? This is such a pleasant state that I'd > begun (thanks to Robert's lucid comments on the > subject) to think that I'm really only driving out a > coarse akusala dhamma with a more refined akusala > dhamma ('subtle lobha'). Though the latter is > clearly > to be preferred over the former, I think this could > be > quite a dangerous trap for me if this (my) > conjecture > is correct. That is, if this is subtle lobha, and I > fail to investigate and recognize it as such, it > could > become the object of all kinds of upaadaana, > micchaditthi etc. In fact, I think this may have > been > happening for a long time... > 1093 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hoaxes, etc [Was:Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA] Dear Betty, Shin, and friends, I agree with you entirely, Betty. Whenever in doubt, we can check from the internet by searching "urban legends" in any searching engines. One of the sources I usually refer to is the following webpage: http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm With Metta, Alex Tran ================================ >From: "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:33:46 +0700 > >Dear Shin, >Am just trying to get through all the e-mails and finally came across this >plea for help. Unfortunately, despite the terrible emotional situation it >describes, the person/persons who start these things are really sick. They >play on the sympathy of others to fill up web space and the actions they >perform are really evil. It is, unfortunately, a chain letter HOAX. Think >about it: why should a company only finance this anguished father based on >how many people send e-mails? Why don't they just finance the kid's >operation if there really is such a case? They cannot put a link on how >many >e-mails are sent because there is no address to which all of them can be >returned! Furthermore, the e-mails sent give absolutely no benefit to the >company, either. If there really is such a father out there, and the >daughter is indeed in serious condition in a hospital, think of the cruelty >of the perpetrators of these hoaxes by putting false hopes in the mind of a >frightened, vulnerable parent who cannot afford medical care! > >How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, >to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the >opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger >cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by >such >people. > > >With metta, >Betty > > >__________________________ >Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala >38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road >Bangkok 10900, Thailand >tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 >protectID 1094 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 10:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Shin, > How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these > phony messages perform, > to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be > interested in hearing the > opinions of group members. For me, it served as a > condition for anger > cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the > akusala kamma created by such > people. Betty, There is not much we can do about the akusala cetana (deceit, greed, etc, the usual cacktail) of the senders of such messages, so the best we could hope for on our part is a bit of equanimity. But I suspect we all reacted with dosa of some type or another. Jonothan 1095 From: amara chay Date: Thu Oct 12, 2000 11:36pm Subject: Re: Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA > How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, > to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the > opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger > cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by such > people. Dear Betty, We cannot really know the state of the citta of the persons who perform such deeds, perhaps they did not realize the harm the letters might be doing, perhaps they realized what they put people through and did it anyway, enjoying others' sufferings. Then again they might know it's wrong but did it to try out something, but in all cases what we can be sure of is that it is 'musa', lying, using words, actions or other means to conveying false messages. The results depend on the strength of the citta that did the deed, more specifically the cetana cetasika the intended the harm, and the viriya that went into it. As always, nothing is lost, everything is accumulated in the citta until the opportunity arises for the corresponding vipaka to bring results. Others could probably help to explain, Amara 1096 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) --- amara chay wrote: > As always, nothing is > lost, everything is > accumulated in the citta until the opportunity > arises for the > corresponding vipaka to bring results. ________________________________________ Thanks, Amara, For some reason, something 'clicked' for me that hadn't before--though I knew (theoretically) that each citta bears all the conditions of all previous cittas (right?), I hadn't put it together that each citta is the bearer of all 'accumulations'. If this is correct: In sankhaarupaadaana, with what does grasping (or identification) identify? Is this just a single citta (or series of cittas) that has the characteristic of identifying with previous cittas? Also: If it is true that only one citta can arise at a time, doesn't each citta, bearing all the conditions of all previous cittas, have both kusala and akusala characteristics? If so, than can kusala and akusala arise simultaneously? Finally: Occuring for such an infinitesimally brief period, does all of this really matter, for practical purposes? Or is this only of theoretical importance? Thank you, ma'am...mn 1097 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Sarah, Sorry for my late comments ... > Dear Leonardo & friends, > I've been considering your posts a while back about laying the foundation of > sila (and dana) first and then developing understanding as discussed in the > articles by B.Bodhi ..... In my mail answering Robert`s remarks, I`ve posted: "I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of what sila means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give us some better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be ever better then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon our strong unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept or practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is panna itself isn`t it ? I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the real sila is conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our big ego - this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing annata". I didn`t understand Bhikkhu Bodhi`s emphasis in first undertaking sila and then go ahead on panna for every people. Otherwise, for a great number of people it would be like this. Only to keep the precepts as external is somehow silly, but this stage should be undertaken because for people without grasping the more profound Dhamma it is a Dhamma 'practice' in itself. There should be a very initial mundane panna to keep the precepts - even for someone who practices them out of fear to rebirth in an unfortunate realm ! We have to bear in mind that perhaps Bodhi`s articles don`t address to Roberts, Sarahs, Jonothans, Amaras, Alexs :-) ... but for a different kind of people. You have to use different approach to comunicate to people with different degree of understanding. You`ve wrote: > He suggests the level of understanding will be limited > by the level of sila established too. For me these two are very much connected. Perhaps here the word 'understand' has different meanings for us - Sila, as I see, is connected with the word 'wise' and not necessarily with the word 'understand'. We can understand theoretically many teachings but what is really a wise person ? - Please, here I'm not trying to say that we should meditate more than study ! Sarah and friends, what is a wise person ? What caracterize the four stages of sainthood ? Bhikkhu Bodhi is stressing the real value of sila in cleansing the 'house'. Why would he did that ? (english is correct ?) I think it fits with a particular kind of people from west, usually with a great amount of aversion on the religious aspects. It seems to someone that Buddhism is best considered a mental science, a philosophy and NOT a religion. Because of our conditional view of religion with dogmas and obligations, we tend "only to meditate, to study and put in the garbage all these silly exterior religious matter - let it for the use of the less inteligent people". Sarah, unfortunately this was the way I' ve begun my 'Dhamma practice' . So, BB's articles are very compassionate in the way they try to shed light in this important matter. > 1. There is a suggestion in all of this that there can be some choice i.e. > first do this, then that. As we know these ideas reflect our view of self. Yes and no ! I think there will be some 'choices' - not personal choices, in ultimate sense.There is 'choices' to study the Dhamma, 'choices' to participate in this wonderful list, 'choices' to practice the precepts, etc.. Perhaps the word zeal (chanda) is more technical to express what I want to mean. Chanda is not the same as lobha as we can read in chapter 12 - NVG's - Cetacikas: " ... Whenever we perform kusala, the kusala citta is accompained by chanda wich is zeal for kusala, wich desires to act in the wholesome way..... If there were no wholesome zeal, ' wish to act', we could not perform such acts of mettă and karuna ... But Sarah I also can see what you are trying to teach me - there is dangers also ... So, if we continue, we can read in the same chapter: "...How do we know when chanda is kusala or akusala ? For instance, when we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment ? We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often attchment than kusala chanda. We are attached to a concept of sati [as if these words were Robert`s ! ] and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is different the moment sati arises [ great ! ] ... When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala chanda wich performs its functions .... > 2. We all know people who naturally have good accumulations of sila or are > very generous. What do you mean with 'naturally' ? Every situation is due to conditions. What were the conditions to they can have good accumulations of sila ? > However if there is no understanding and a teacher they > respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may change > this good behaviour. This is the case where there are a silly student and a also a deluded teacher ... > 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for the > wholesome tendencies to grow. I think we are stressing the same point. There is only a mature sila when understanding is present. But for me, there isn`t a wise man only if there is understanding without sila, both internal and external as Bhikkhu Bodhi stresses. > 4. If there is no understanding of the realities, how will there be any > knowledge or differentiation between the moments of kusala and the moments > of akusala? As we have been reading in Robert's posts, akusala cittas can be > very subtle, far more subtle than we can imagine right now. The more finely > attuned and developed understanding is, the more it can see how so much of > what we take for kusala is really akusala. When we give a gift to a friend, > how many moments of kusala are there and how many moments of lobha, dosa and > moha ? Sometimes, the outer behavior conditions the inner one, particularly in the very start of the path - like as we were as educated children in our first yoars in school. > 5. So often when we think about sila and dana, we think about a situation or > a story...doing or not doing this act. When we think there are situations it > shows the clinging (and often wrong view) of self. It doesn't mean we don't > talk about situations for convenience, but in reality there are no > situations. Sarah, for me sila is very much concerned with its volitional aspect. In thinking in this direction, I guess I'm focusing on the many moments of sila and non-sila, the former is more frequent than the second, but both of them are anatta and anicca. > 6. Really I believe it's good to hear about all kinds of kusala. I would say not only to hear but to understand sila as kusala in the way you in this group try to understand ! > We all have different accumulations. Some may have good sila (as we are used to use the > term) before developing understanding. Others may not. You'll remember > stories of some of the Buddha's followers who did not have good sila when > they came to listen to the teachings but were able to become enlightened. Yes, but who knows they didn`t have sila accumulations in the past. I guess if someone is fortunate enough to share an existence with a Buddha, there will be a extremely strong wholesome accumulations on his/her past - both sila and understanding accumulations ! > 7. Only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and yet the sotapanna's > understanding had to develop to this high level. But not because only a sotapanna can keep rightly the precepts, ' we' wouldn't try to make some effort in the right direction. Understanding the necessity of practising sila is also Right View and it drives our usual deluded and poluted mind to a right course of action - both internal (volitional) and external (acting in the world). If we will wait until we become a sotapanna do practice sila, i guess it will never come to life. Sila, as I understand, is a condition for sotapanna attainment. Am I wrong here ? > Sometimes people try to imitate the life of the arahat without comprehending > that it is the inner wisdom that is the key, rather than the outer actions. See again Bodhi's differentiation on internal x external behavior and its implicit relation with correct understanding. Thank you very much Sarah, Ps: This wonderful group is certainly 'my ticket' to somehow one day I could "know and see" Metta, Leonardo 1098 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:37am Subject: Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) > For some reason, something 'clicked' for me that > hadn't before--though I knew (theoretically) that each > citta bears all the conditions of all previous cittas > (right?), I hadn't put it together that each citta is > the bearer of all 'accumulations'. Dear Mike, YESS! > If this is correct: In sankhaarupaadaana, with what > does grasping (or identification) identify? Is this > just a single citta (or series of cittas) that has the > characteristic of identifying with previous cittas? When the citta falls away it becomes the anantara paccaya (immediate cause) for the next citta to arise, passing onto the new citta all the accumulations in it. > Also: If it is true that only one citta can arise at > a time, doesn't each citta, bearing all the conditions > of all previous cittas, have both kusala and akusala > characteristics? If so, than can kusala and akusala > arise simultaneously? Kusala and akusala can never arise together to do their functions, which does not mean that one is temporarily not there, they are, if panna has not eradicated them completely yet (as in the respective levels of ariya puggala) but as latent tendencies, until the right conditions cause them to arise to do their function. Which is why there are three levels or strengths to the cetasikas, I quote from Khun Sujin's 'Summary' (in the advanced section of ) There are 3 levels of kilesa namely, anusaya-kilesa, pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa. Vitikkakama-kilesa is the coarse kilesa, causing one to break the sila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong action) physically or verbally. To virati is to refrain from Vitikkakama-kilesa with sila. Pariyutthana-kilesa is the medium kind of kilesa that arises with akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the sila and performing duccarita kamma. To refrain from pariyutthana-kilesa momentarily is called vikkhambhana-pahana with jhana-kusala-citta. Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa. When kilesa has not been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like sediment in the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise. All kilesa would be completely eradicated, never to arise again, when the lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the ariya-sacca-dhamma by experiencing the characteristics of nibbana according to the levels of the magga-citta, which completely eradicates kilesa according to the levels of the specific magga-citta. Before the enlightenment of the Buddha there were people who observed the precepts, abstaining from wrong doing and developing samatha-bhavana unto the arupa-jhana of the highest level, the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and temporarily suppressed kilesa as vikkhambhana-pahana. But none were able to eradicate anusaya-kilesa. When the Buddha had accumulated his parami for four asankheyya and a hundred thousand kappa, he became enlightened of the anuttarasammasambodhinana (the supreme omniscient self-enlightenment) as the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta. He manifested the way to practice towards the realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma so that there were many ariya-sankha-savaka (disciples) who attained the ariya-sacca-dhamma, eradicating kilesa. As long as there are those who study and practice the dhamma according to what he became enlightened with and manifested in detail all through 45 years, they continue to do so. The dhamma manifested by the Buddha is refined, intricate, and profound because he manifested the characteristics of realities with which he became enlightened by having fully realized the truth about the specific realities. Any who do not conscientiously study the dhamma he manifested to rightly understand it, would not be able to develop panna to fully realize the characteristics of realities and be able to eradicate kilesa. For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly are. The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and know that they still have all the kilesa. They must not desire to eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because they must first eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to realities that arise concurrently as the selves, entities and people. Only then would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, respectively. Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects? The same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense contact. Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way to practice to develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently with samma-sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is kayanupassana-satipatthana. 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is vedananupassana-satipatthana. 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is cittanupassana-satipatthana. 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is dhammanupassana-satipatthana. The word satipatthana has 3 meanings: 1) Satipatthana is the paramattha-arammana or nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that sati is mindful of (the 4 satipatthana). 2) Satipatthana is the sati-cetasika that arises with kamavacara-nanasampayutta-citta that is mindful of the arammana that are satipatthana. 3) Satipatthana is the path taken by the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta and the ariya-savanna. It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, even including this lifetime each day since our birth. Those who understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are would therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and examining the dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to compose satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take note, examine and study the characteristics of the realities appearing according to what one has heard and understood. All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya or when the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. (End quote.) > Finally: Occuring for such an infinitesimally brief > period, does all of this really matter, for practical > purposes? Or is this only of theoretical importance? It is essential if one wants to know the truth about things, which for an eternity has never been taught. Again, nothing is lost, so in fact these tiny instants can actually eradicate an eternity of wrong view when accumulated to certain level, which is a wonderous discovery, because there is no other way at all! For me personally I prefer to live with knowledge of things as they really are, even if it is only in tiny instants, rather than in complete ignorance and illusion. I do not expect immediate results, but at least there is a glimmer of light in that direction and if we walk one step at a time we are sure to reach it one day, and I am secure in the knowledge that this path leads me to selflessness, and any freedom from the self is always kusala both for myself and for other people. Reading this now with the self may be discouraging, 'when am I ever going to reach this or that impossibly far off goal, what are my accumulations exactly, what if all my efforts are in vain?' But in reality whether we know it or not, they are all thoughts arising from seeing for passing instants 'vanno' through the eyes, followed by long trains of thoughts interposed by bhavanga, more sight, plus other nama and rupa arising. These are all real and we do not know their true nature without studying them, and studying them is the only way, according to the Buddha, to accumulate knowledge about them to such a degree that it could free you from all ignorance and kilesa. It may seem an impossibly difficult and long term project, but one must start somewhere and why not know that it can arise at any time and place and study as often as sati can arise? The Buddha spent impossibly long eons studying also, ever since he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara to be a future Buddha four assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa ago. The dhamma is not easy, in fact Khun Sujin said to say that it is hard is to appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha. This is why he exhorted us to be brave and cheerful, and have viriya or perseverence against all odds, so that we live in knowledge of things as they really are and could reach the ultimate knowledge one day, after all we must all have very good accumulations to have found his teachings and kalayanamitta along the way. It is an ultimately lonely path that each must walk alone, but while we are in such company it is both beneficial and encouraging, after all the sasana is still there to lead us to the truth and freedom, Sorry for the endless essay, hope you find something useful, Amara PS. When you address me as ma'am I couldn't help wondering if I sounded overly pedantic, sir! 1099 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? Dear Robert, I am sure 'you are' a complex and keen mix of aggregates, functioning as a wonderful Dhamma-friend :-) Mettta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:20 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] satipatthana, how to? > Dear leornardo, > My writing makes me look wiser than the actual fact. > My understanding is almost all at the theoretical > level -it is OK but does not go deep. Often I > paraphrase Khun Sujin's words or Nina Van Gorkoms > writings and letters - but how well I really > understand them is another matter. > So many levels of understanding even at the > theoretical level. > Sometimes I overestimate my understanding-and that is > dangerous. > Once we get past the obstacles the traps are waiting. > Robert > --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Robert, > > > > Your writings are so impressive. > > > > Thanks once more, > > Metta, > > Leonardo > > > > > > 1100 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Dear m .nease, Thank you very much ! Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "m. nease" Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study > Dear Leonardo, > > Thought you might also appreciate this look at the way > different 'types' got along in the Buddha's day--if > you haven't read it before--Sean's great translation > reminded me of it. It's from Sanghadisesa (pardon my > spelling!) VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, > translated by I.B. Horner: > > "Then the venerable Dabba, the Mallian, being so > chosen, assigned one lodging in the same place for > those monks who belonged to the same company. For > those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned a > lodging in the same place, saying: "These will be > able to chant over the Suttantas to one another." For > those monks versed in the Vinaya rules, he assigned a > lodging in the same place, saying: "They will decide > upon the Vinaya with one another." For those monks > teaching dhamma he assigned a lodging in the same > place, saying: "They will discuss dhamma with one > another." For those monks who were musers he assigned > a lodging in the same place, saying: "They will not > disturb one another." For those monks who lived > indulging in low talk and who were athletic he > assigned a lodging in the same place, saying: "These > reverend ones will live according to their pleasure." > > Pretty smart seven-year old! How often do we see this > kind of equanimity towards those of a different bent > today? > 1101 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) Amara, this is excellent--thank you! Pedantic? Hardly: Main Entry: pe·dan·tic Pronunciation: pi-'dan-tik Function: adjective Date: circa 1600 1 : of, relating to, or being a pedant 2 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned 3 : UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN - pe·dan·ti·cal·ly /-'dan-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb (From World Wide Webster, at http://www.m-w.com/) Learned, definitely! Narrow, stodgy, or ostentatious--never! UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN? NOPE. Using 'ma'am' and 'sir' are just habits of speech that were common where I grew up. But now, I appreciate the somewhat quaint formality of them in a time and place of such pervasive informality...and especially in addressing those who are worthy of respect. Sadhu, Ma'am! 1102 From: protectID=Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 6:34am Subject: Re: sila as foundation --- "Leonardo Neves" wrote: > We have to bear in mind that perhaps Bodhi`s articles don`t address to > Roberts, Sarahs, Jonothans, Amaras, Alexs :-) ... but for a different kind of people. Dear Leonardo, I'm sure that you made a typing mistake here because whatever Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote, he must have included Alexs in the group of "different kind of people." :-))) I'll study everyone's today posts more carefully tonight. Thank you. Metta, AT 1103 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 8:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > The subject of accumulations can be a difficult one > to > come to grips with. Accumulations are not absolute > realities (paramattha dhammas), but they pertain to > realities. Thanks (VERY much) to Amara, I think I'm beginning to get a handle on this. As I now understand, it (I hope), since each citta bears all the conditions of all previous cittas, it is in each citta that accumulations reside. > For example, at every moment of citta with lobha, > lobha is accumulated, and so our accumulations for > lobha change. Put simply, it means that the > tendency > for lobha to arise again increases. This tendency > is > not itself a reality to be known by direct > experience. > But when strong lobha arises, it is because just > such > a tendency has been accumulated, so to that extent > it > can be experienced. This makes perfect sense now. > When we talk about accumulations we are usually > referring to accumulations in relation to cetasikas > that fall within sankhara kkhanda (ie all cetasikas > except vedana and sanna). So this is perhaps the > connection you had in mind. Yes, it is. But my model of sankhara was way off! The cittas arising today have quite a different character than those arising day before yesterday. I have to say, thanks AGAIN to Amara! And, incidentally, to the person who passed along that chain letter hoax, as it was Amara's response that 'clicked' for me. Interesting case of kusala arising (albeit indirectly!) from akusala... > > This touches on another habit--I think of the > > present > > results of past kamma as 'vipaka'--Robert > responded > > to > > this question in a previous post, but I'm still > not > > clear on it. Isn't kamma just 'action' (mental, > > verbal and physical) and vipaka the result of the > > action? If so, I'm still not clear on the > > relationship between vipaka and sankhaara. Or am > I > > totally off base on both of these terms? > > Kamma is even more difficult to come to terms with. > I > can remember that it took me some time to realise > that > kamma is used in various senses. > > Kamma can refer, for example, to: > - in a general sense, an action/cause that produces > a > later experience/result > - even more generally, the store of such actions > that > we have accumulated (!) in the past > - in terms of absolute realities, the cetana > cetasika > (mental factor of volition) accompanying such action > - one of the 24 conditions (paccaya), ie describing > the relationship between 2 realities (kamma paccaya) > (There may be other meanings too). > > Correspondingly, vipaka can mean: > - the objects, pleasant or unpleasant, that we > experience through our sense-doors ...this one's still beyond me... > - our general lot in life > - the citta that experiences an object through one > of > the sense doors (vipaka citta) > - vipaka paccaya ...these also... > Of these various references, only cetana cetasika > (sankhara kkhanda) and vipaka citta (vinnana > kkhanda) > are stated in terms of paramattha dhammas. Well, I've still got a lot of homework to do. However, > kamma is used in various senses. ...does help. Vipaka is too, I guess. I think I've been taking these to be much more specific terms than they rightly are. > Confused? It goes with the job! Of course! But less so than yesterday (I THINK)... > We are all learning from and benefiting from the > discussions that are taking place. In my own case, > having lived in the virtual Dhamma desert of Hong > Kong > for many years, this list comes as a great blessing. Yep--very great indeed. Thanks again for your priceless roadside assistance... mn 1104 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:39am Subject: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear friends, Could you please clarify to me the differences between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara ? Thanks, Leonardo 1105 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke Dear Robert, You've wrote: > ... However, impossible to hold on to such moments. If we > try to make them stay we are going against their > nature. They arise according to complex conditions. > This type of trying is actually upadana (grasping) of > the type that clings to wrong practice. It is a subtle > point: don't misunderstand. It is not that we just do > nothing and somehow everything works out - that is one > extreme. But so, so easy to do "something" with > attachment. Only we ourselves can learn what the > middle way is. > So much to say about this, so much more to do. > Robert A very profound remark .... Thanks, Leonardo 1106 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Leonardo, I was asking myself EXACTLY this question not two hours ago. Quite uncanny. mn --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear friends, > > Could you please clarify to me the differences > between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara > ? > > Thanks, > Leonardo > 1107 From: shinlin Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Dear M. Betty, Thankyou for your advise. Actually at the time, I was unable to determine whether it was real or not. All I thought of, was that if it is true, that was the least I could do to help. At the same time, I sort of analysized that if I sent this mail to the dhamma friends, it would not be of any lost to them because it is only a mail. That is why, I sent it. If there is anything, which I have caused to make the akusula citta to arise, I sincerely apologize for this matter and to the arising of akusula citta. with metta, Shin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA | Dear Shin, | Am just trying to get through all the e-mails and finally came across this | plea for help. Unfortunately, despite the terrible emotional situation it | describes, the person/persons who start these things are really sick. They | play on the sympathy of others to fill up web space and the actions they | perform are really evil. It is, unfortunately, a chain letter HOAX. Think | about it: why should a company only finance this anguished father based on | how many people send e-mails? Why don't they just finance the kid's | operation if there really is such a case? They cannot put a link on how many | e-mails are sent because there is no address to which all of them can be | returned! Furthermore, the e-mails sent give absolutely no benefit to the | company, either. If there really is such a father out there, and the | daughter is indeed in serious condition in a hospital, think of the cruelty | of the perpetrators of these hoaxes by putting false hopes in the mind of a | frightened, vulnerable parent who cannot afford medical care! | | How are such actions, as the perpetrators of these phony messages perform, | to be interpreted in terms of dhamma? I'd be interested in hearing the | opinions of group members. For me, it served as a condition for anger | cetasikas to arise! It is sad to think of the akusala kamma created by such | people. | | | With metta, | Betty | | | __________________________ | Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala | 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road | Bangkok 10900, Thailand | tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 | protectID| 1108 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- Leonardo Neves wrote: > Dear friends, > > Could you please clarify to me the differences > between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara > ? > > Thanks, > Leonardo > Dear Leonardo and Mike, probably Amara or kom or jonothon will give the best answer to this but I will try a little from memory (be careful my memory is often wrong). This is the sort of question that comes up often at the large meetings when they have a panel discussion. When they used to meet at Wat Bovornivit every Sunday i went along sometimes. It was all in thai though so I got limited translations. This sort of question could last all day (9am -4pm) and possibly even until the next week. someone would have done research and have references to whereever the terms came up in the suttas, and someone else would know the commentarial and subcommentarial expalnations. Acharn somporn could explain subtle nuances and why sometimes the term meant this and sometimes it meant that. And many others would help out too. In view of this my brief explanation is going to be far too short and even possibly wrong in places. I will still give it in the hope that it will be improved. Yoniso manisikara means correct or wise attention; when there is wise attention to an object there are kusala cittas arising. Sampajana: clear comprehension. There are four types: from the satipatthana sutta commenatary; "1What takes place together with the aim called growth according to the Dhamma is purpose. The clear comprehension of purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear comprehension of purpose. 2The clear comprehension of what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear comprehension of suitability. 3The clear comprehension of the (mental) resort which is called the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, in going backwards and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is the clear comprehension of resort. 4Clear comprehension of NON_DELUSION is non-delusion that is clearly comprehending and is called non-stupefaction" When we talk about satipatthana we mean only the fourth type of sampajanna- NON DELUSION. And this is decribed in the commentary as follows "Further, non-confusion in going forwards and so forth is the clear comprehension of non-delusion. That should be understood in the following way: -- In this Dispensation, a monk, without confusing himself, like a blinded worldling who, while going forwards or backwards, becomes muddle-headed, and believes thus: "The soul (or self) goes forward" or "The act of going forwards is produced by the soul," or "I go forwards" or "The act of going forwards is produced by me," and the like, thinks: "When there is the arising in one of the thought 'I am going forwards,' just with that thought, appears the process of oscillation originating from mind which brings to birth bodily expression (or intimation). Thus by the way of the diffusion of the process of oscillation due to mental activity, this skeleton called the body goes forward." As we can see whenever there is sampajanna there must be wise attention. It seems to me that these two words are synonyms with perhaps subtle differences in meaning making one term suitable at times and another suitable at other times. Panna is also a synonym as is amoha. Ok that is my expanation. Please correct and improve. Robert > > 1109 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:49pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Could you please clarify to me the differences between sampajanna x yoniso manasikara Dear friends, As Robert explained, both has to do with wisdom and studying. As Khun Sujin explained and if I remember correctly, sampajanna precedes as well as supports satipatthana, while yoniso manasikara accompanies it. Sampajanna means not only clear but thorough and in all areas, for example sapaya sampajanna means to know what is convenient and benificient: does one have to wait for the evening to go to a Karaoke to see if one can have sati there or can we just be where we are, right now there are conditions for us to be here in front of the computer screen and study realities as they appear? And I was once in a nightclub in Paris with some friends and I could not stop some fleeting awareness from arising even if I had wanted to. Does location really matter? In one of the commentaries, seeing the chedi of a temple (in India) had been conditions for thousands of bhikkhus to attain stages of enlightenment, on hearing this many would try to rush there and try it out. They forget the bhikkhus LIVE where they see it daily. The commentary also says that when there are festivals when the towns people flock there it might not be the sapaya for some. Another is gojara sampajanna. Gojara is the place one travels to which is the place one is in or the path one takes. The places sati arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to continue to arise. There are, as Robert says, two other sampajanna which escape me at the moment, but as Khun Sujin recently explained them to Betty (who has great memory and a scholarly habit of taking notes) we might ask her to help explain them. Yoniso manasikara is manasikara that arises with satipatthana, the cetasika itself is one of the annasamana cetasika that are 'universal cetasika' that accompanies all citta. Its function is to be 'attentive, interested in the arammana. The interest in the arammana would be paccaya for the cetasika to think of the arammana and compose it into intricacies, infinite sciences in worldly matters. While in dhamma matters, it is to the contrary.' it studies realities as they really are, as nama and rupa, as the four paramatthadhamma. One ground rule for all is that the sati patthana can only have the paramattha dhamma as aramana, while the mind can have anything as aramana, whereas the five other dvara can only have their specific rupa as aramana. I think this is why intellectual understanding and sampajanna must precede any level of knowledge particularly satipatthana, from then on the individual accumulation proceeds to accumulate understanding of the realities as they really are at their own speed and depth, with or without further intelledtual or book study. In other words, so long as you study realities, whether or not you know the Pali term to designate them is a matter of communication. And since what you know do not depend on whether you can describe it or on a teacher to confirm the knowledge, nothing but the true experiences really count. Of course it is often a lot more fun to be studying even the Pali terms than the different species of prankton in the ocean, as well as infinitely more useful, I think! (I know, lobha!) I hope Betty sees this message soon and obliges us with the other two sampajanna, Amara 1110 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 0:58pm Subject: Re: Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Actually at the time, I was unable to > determine whether it was real or not. All I thought of, was that if it is > true, that was the least I could do to help. At the same time, I sort of > analysized that if I sent this mail to the dhamma friends, it would not be > of any lost to them because it is only a mail. That is why, I sent it. > If there is anything, which I have caused to make the akusula citta to > arise, I sincerely apologize for this matter and to the arising of akusula > citta. Dear Shin, I loved what Sotujana said when you first posted it, 'Hey, we've all fallen for things like this before because we are all trying to be good people.' We can all learn from it, and who would have thought it would have actually done some good for Mike in the end! Amara 1111 From: A T Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Robert, Leonardo, Mike and friends, Thank you for bringing up the definitions of these terms. When reading your posts, I did try to look them up in the Glossary last night, but could not understand them very well. Now, I begin to have some "intellectual" glimpse! I'm glad that we have the archive so that from time to time, we can go back to re-read these good articles. Thank you, my friends. Metta, Alex 1112 From: Mary Reinard Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:14pm Subject: Hello from Mary Hello everyone, I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging me to get on board and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very informative and well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not sure I'll have much to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest will be pee-qued just enough to push me out in the open. I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. Much Metta, Mary 1113 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:32pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara >The places sati arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in >the bhavanga, for example) Dear friends, Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the unique function of life continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and rupa) alive during that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of the kamma they have done. It does not accumulate anything further, it just passes on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, although all the cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything further, not even if they arise then. Amara 1114 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:45pm Subject: Re: Hello from Mary > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. Hello, Mary, Welcome and looking foreward to welcoming you back in a week! Have a nice time in the meantime, Amara 1115 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Welcome mary and thank you Mike for giving the invite. Anything you have to say will be most appreciated. (Don't feel offended if it sometimes gets dissected - or even diced, sliced and shred- we all put our comments out with the hope that others can see errors or improve what we say). robert --- Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging > me to get on board > and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very > informative and > well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not > sure I'll have much > to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest > will be pee-qued > just enough to push me out in the open. > > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello > just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this > group. > > Much Metta, > Mary > > 1116 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 2:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- > Dear friends, > > Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the unique > function of life > continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and > rupa) alive during > that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of > the kamma they > have done. It does not accumulate anything further, > it just passes > on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, > although all the > cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything > further, not > even if they arise then. > > Amara > > Dear Amara, You write "all the cetasika are there". I wondered a little about this. Bhavanga is a citta and it is not the same as cetasika. Cetasikas are not "inside" bhavanga although they arise at the same time. I know the anusaya (latent tendencies) are passed on from citta to citta but does accumulations mean exactly the same thing as cetasika? Lobha is a cetasika and a latent tendency but when we talk about it as cetasika do we not usually mean at the level of pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa rather than anusaya? Perhaps not- maybe you can clarify or ask Santi or Khun pracheun. Robert 1117 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:02pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > > Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the unique > > function of life > > continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and > > rupa) alive during > > that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of > > the kamma they > > have done. It does not accumulate anything further, > > it just passes > > on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, > > although all the > > cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything > > further, not > > even if they arise then. > > > > Amara > > > > Dear Amara, > You write "all the cetasika are there". I wondered a > little about this. Bhavanga is a citta and it is not > the same as cetasika. Cetasikas are not "inside" > bhavanga although they arise at the same time. > I know the anusaya (latent tendencies) are passed on > from citta to citta but does accumulations mean > exactly the same thing as cetasika? Lobha is a > cetasika and a latent tendency but when we talk about > it as cetasika do we not usually mean at the level of > pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa rather than > anusaya? Dear Robert, I am sure you did not expect an explanation, you know yourself that all realities in the world or out of it, no matter how intricate or immaterial, are classifiable as one of the four paramatthadhamma, and what are the realities you speak of classified as? We've been through more difficult tests than this one, by Khun Sujin, haven't we, Betty, Sukin et al? Amara 1118 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 3:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Actually, at the risk of seeming dense, I was looking for an explanation. Take the example of a moment with kusala citta associated with panna . Now the citta at that moment is has no akusala cetasikas accompanying it (at least this is my understanding) however at the anusaya level there is still much lobha ,moha and dosa. But usually we do not say that lobha, moha and dosa cetasikas are accompanying the citta at that time. Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > > Sorry to correct myself, the bhavanga has the > unique > > > function of life > > > continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika > and > > > rupa) alive during > > > that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka > they of > > > the kamma they > > > have done. It does not accumulate anything > further, > > > it just passes > > > on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, > > > although all the > > > cetasika are there, none of them accumulate > anything > > > further, not > > > even if they arise then. > > > > > > Amara > > > > > > Dear Amara, > > You write "all the cetasika are there". I wondered > a > > little about this. Bhavanga is a citta and it is > not > > the same as cetasika. Cetasikas are not "inside" > > bhavanga although they arise at the same time. > > I know the anusaya (latent tendencies) are passed > on > > from citta to citta but does accumulations mean > > exactly the same thing as cetasika? Lobha is a > > cetasika and a latent tendency but when we talk > about > > it as cetasika do we not usually mean at the level > of > > pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa rather > than > > anusaya? > > > Dear Robert, > > I am sure you did not expect an explanation, you > know yourself that > all realities in the world or out of it, no matter > how intricate or > immaterial, are classifiable as one of the four > paramatthadhamma, > and what are the realities you speak of classified > as? > > We've been through more difficult tests than this > one, by Khun > Sujin, haven't we, Betty, Sukin et al? > > Amara > > 1119 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:14pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Take the example of a moment with kusala citta > associated with panna . Now the citta at that moment > is has no akusala cetasikas accompanying it (at least > this is my understanding) however at the anusaya level > there is still much lobha ,moha and dosa. But usually > we do not say that lobha, moha and dosa cetasikas are > accompanying the citta at that time. > Robert Dear Robert, So they never arise to function together, and when we describe the citta through their function, we must say that this one does the function of bhavanga, that of seeing, those of kusala and akusala, and describe the cetasika that accompany them in their function, we do not speak of the anusaya because they are inoperative at the time, but lay dormant, because we are not the arahanta or any level of ariya puggala it is the same for all, one does not need to describe all 52 minus whatever is in operation for all the types of citta, do we? So generally what we describe are those that are conditioned to arise at that time to do their function. We just mention the 'active' ones and even so the finer points and combinations yeild at least 89-121 kinds in very general categories already, do you need more? In fact there are as many different citta as there are living things because no two are exactly the same, at each moment, even when you and I are seeing the same things. No matter the classifications, so long as we know they are nama and rupa and not the self. Amara 1120 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Mary Hello and welcome from me. We look forward to having you in our discussions. Do you have time to tell us something about yourself before going off for the week? (Not obligatory - we're just curious!) Jonothan --- Mary Reinard wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging > me to get on board > and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very > informative and > well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not > sure I'll have much > to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest > will be pee-qued > just enough to push me out in the open. > > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello > just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this > group. > > Much Metta, > Mary > > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > > > 1121 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear leonardo, I was reading over your comments on Sarahs remarks about sila. Once again I am impressed by the careful consideration you give to what we all say. One point "Sila, as I understand, is a condition for sotapanna attainment. Am I wrong here ?." All kusala, no matter of what level, must be helpful. But how much does the type of sila that is conditioned by wrong view help? Muslims do not drink alcohol and this is good, but the reason for it is because they think it is ordained by God. Will that lead them to understand dhammas deeply? What leads to becoming a sotapanna is above all panna, wisdom, that penetrates the true nature of dhammas. At those moments there is sila of the highest degree, it is not taken for self. Remember that silabata upadana -clinging to sila, obstructs the path. Thanks for noticing my comments on another post: "However, impossible to hold on to such moments. If we > try to make them stay we are going against their > nature. They arise according to complex conditions. > This type of trying is actually upadana (grasping) of > the type that clings to wrong practice. It is a subtle > point: don't misunderstand. It is not that we just do > nothing and somehow everything works out - that is one > extreme. But so, so easy to do "something" with > attachment. Only we ourselves can learn what the > middle way is. " Robert 1122 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Thanks for giving the extra details. I am really quite weak in some of the finer details of Abhidhamma (lazy to learn)so all of this is most useful. It makes me think and even if I don't get the full meaning now it makes it easier next time conditions arise to contemplate it. Thanks Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Take the example of a moment with kusala citta > > associated with panna . Now the citta at that > moment > > is has no akusala cetasikas accompanying it (at > least > > this is my understanding) however at the anusaya > level > > there is still much lobha ,moha and dosa. But > usually > > we do not say that lobha, moha and dosa cetasikas > are > > accompanying the citta at that time. > > Robert > > > Dear Robert, > > So they never arise to function together, and when > we describe the > citta through their function, we must say that this > one does the > function of bhavanga, that of seeing, those of > kusala and akusala, > and describe the cetasika that accompany them in > their function, we > do not speak of the anusaya because they are > inoperative at the > time, but lay dormant, because we are not the > arahanta or any level > of ariya puggala it is the same for all, one does > not need to > describe all 52 minus whatever is in operation for > all the types of > citta, do we? So generally what we describe are > those that are > conditioned to arise at that time to do their > function. We just > mention the 'active' ones and even so the finer > points and > combinations yeild at least 89-121 kinds in very > general categories > already, do you need more? In fact there are as > many different > citta as there are living things because no two are > exactly the > same, at each moment, even when you and I are seeing > the same > things. No matter the classifications, so long as > we know they are > nama and rupa and not the self. > > Amara > > 1123 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:46pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara It makes > me think and even if I don't get the full meaning now > it makes it easier next time conditions arise to > contemplate it. Dear Robert, You are so well read, much more so than I am, and help us so much to find the right books and detailed studies. Sometimes you forget the simple basics, that is all. (Are you sure this is not another test?) Amara 1124 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:10pm Subject: [Fwd: About.com Link] The following link was forwarded to you by a visitor to About, http://home.about.com./ Betty Yugala thought that you would be interested in http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blfatima.htm from Urban Legends and Folklore, an About Site. If you haven't heard any strange stories lately, check here. Plus, examine how false legends often paint a true cultural picture. From about.com. Please note the this email was initiated by Betty, not by personnel at About or the Urban Legends and Folklore Site. About does not monitor these emails, nor can we be responsible for any comments or contents forwarded by the sender. We hope you enjoy the recommended page and remind you that you can always access About directly at http://home.about.com./ 1125 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hoaxes, etc [Was:Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA] Dear Alex, Many thanks for your helpful info. I mailed a copy of the page with that letter to our dhammastudy group. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: A T Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hoaxes, etc [Was:Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA] > Dear Betty, Shin, and friends, > > I agree with you entirely, Betty. Whenever in doubt, we can check from > the internet by searching "urban legends" in any searching engines. One of > the sources I usually refer to is the following webpage: > > http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm > > With Metta, > Alex Tran 1126 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Citta ( Was Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA) Dear amara, thank you for this excellent and detailed reply which I found very useful Robert --- amara chay wrote: > > > For some reason, something 'clicked' for me that > > hadn't before--though I knew (theoretically) that > each > > citta bears all the conditions of all previous > cittas > > (right?), I hadn't put it together that each citta > is > > the bearer of all 'accumulations'. > > > Dear Mike, > > YESS! > > > > If this is correct: In sankhaarupaadaana, with > what > > does grasping (or identification) identify? Is > this > > just a single citta (or series of cittas) that has > the > > characteristic of identifying with previous > cittas? > > > When the citta falls away it becomes the anantara > paccaya (immediate > cause) for the next citta to arise, passing onto the > new citta all > the accumulations in it. > > > > Also: If it is true that only one citta can arise > at > > a time, doesn't each citta, bearing all the > conditions > > of all previous cittas, have both kusala and > akusala > > characteristics? If so, than can kusala and > akusala > > arise simultaneously? > > > Kusala and akusala can never arise together to do > their functions, > which does not mean that one is temporarily not > there, they are, if > panna has not eradicated them completely yet (as in > the respective > levels of ariya puggala) but as latent tendencies, > until the right > conditions cause them to arise to do their function. > Which is why > there are three levels or strengths to the > cetasikas, I quote from > Khun Sujin's 'Summary' (in the advanced section of > ) > There are 3 levels of kilesa namely, > anusaya-kilesa, > pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa. > > Vitikkakama-kilesa is the coarse kilesa, causing > one to break the > sila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong > action) > physically or verbally. To virati is to refrain > from > Vitikkakama-kilesa with sila. > > Pariyutthana-kilesa is the medium kind of kilesa > that arises with > akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the > sila and > performing duccarita kamma. To refrain from > pariyutthana-kilesa > momentarily is called vikkhambhana-pahana with > jhana-kusala-citta. > > Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa. When kilesa > has not been > eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like > sediment in the > cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, > like a seed, a > paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise. All > kilesa would be > completely eradicated, never to arise again, when > the > lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the > ariya-sacca-dhamma by > experiencing the characteristics of nibbana > according to the levels > of the magga-citta, which completely eradicates > kilesa according to > the levels of the specific magga-citta. > > Before the enlightenment of the Buddha there were > people who > observed the precepts, abstaining from wrong doing > and developing > samatha-bhavana unto the arupa-jhana of the highest > level, the > nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and temporarily > suppressed kilesa as > vikkhambhana-pahana. But none were able to > eradicate > anusaya-kilesa. > > When the Buddha had accumulated his parami for four > asankheyya and > a hundred thousand kappa, he became enlightened of > the > anuttarasammasambodhinana (the supreme omniscient > self-enlightenment) as the Sammasambuddha the > Arahanta. > > He manifested the way to practice towards the > realization of the > ariya-sacca-dhamma so that there were many > ariya-sankha-savaka > (disciples) who attained the ariya-sacca-dhamma, > eradicating kilesa. > As long as there are those who study and practice > the dhamma > according to what he became enlightened with and > manifested in > detail all through 45 years, they continue to do so. > The dhamma > manifested by the Buddha is refined, intricate, and > profound > because he manifested the characteristics of > realities with which > he became enlightened by having fully realized the > truth about the > specific realities. Any who do not conscientiously > study the dhamma > he manifested to rightly understand it, would not be > able to develop > panna to fully realize the characteristics of > realities and be able > to eradicate kilesa. > > For panna to be able to fully realize the > characteristics of > realities as they really are, there must be right > understanding > from the start what are the realities that panna > would fully realize > the truth about: which is all that are real, that > are appearing > through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and > mind at this > very > moment. > > It means that when there is seeing, hearing, > smelling, tasting, > knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no > knowledge of the > true characteristics of realities as they truly are. > The Buddha > manifested the realities that arise, appear and > evolve through the > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every > day at each > instant in detail, so one might see the harm of > akusala-dhamma and > samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one > would not > endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which > is the panna > that fully realizes the characteristics of realities > appearing as > they truly are normally until kilesa can be > eradicated. > > The development of samatha-bhavana and that of > vipassana-bhavana > differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The > former has > aramana which render the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful > upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely > based on a > unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has > paramattha-aramana, namely > nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and > fall away as > aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta > begin to take > note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, > constantly until > it knows that they are realities that are not > entities, persons, or > the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be > born a > brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of > vipassana-bhavana > is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of > realities as > they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely > according to the > level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as > arammana unto the > level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely > eradicates all > kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more > rebirth. > > Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be > straight and true and > know that they still have all the kilesa. They must > not desire to > eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person > cannot > precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because > they must first > eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, > that clings to > realities that arise concurrently as the selves, > entities and > people. Only then would other kilesa be eradicated > in sequence, > respectively. > > Since one does not know that the instant of seeing > is not the self, > entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its > effects? The > same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and > knowing bodysense > contact. > > Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing > completely very > rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way > to practice to > develop panna to realize the truth about realities: > that there is > only one way, the development of the eightfold > ariya-magga namely > samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa > (vitaka-cetasika), > samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta > (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva > (samma-ajiva-cetasika), > samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati > (sati-cetasika) > samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). > > At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the > fivefold path > (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a > time, the 3 > virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the > lokuttara-citta) > would arise and perform their functions together in > the instant that > sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities > that are either > nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, > nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that > arises concurrently > with samma-sati at that instant would start to take > note, examine > and know the characteristics of the specific > nama-dhamma or > rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and > constantly until there > is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or > rupa-dhamma. > > Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, > bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 > sati-patthana. When > sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of > distinct > realities as > > 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises > to be mindful > of the characteristics of rupa through the > bodysense, it is > kayanupassana-satipatthana. > > 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati > arises to be mindful > of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it > is > vedananupassana-satipatthana. > > 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises > to be mindful > of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, > it is > cittanupassana-satipatthana. > > 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati > arises to be mindful > of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or > nama-dhamma, it is > dhammanupassana-satipatthana. > > The word satipatthana has 3 meanings: > > 1) Satipatthana is the paramattha-arammana or > nama-dhamma and > rupa-dhamma that sati is mindful of (the 4 > satipatthana). > > 2) Satipatthana is the sati-cetasika that arises > with > kamavacara-nanasampayutta-citta that is mindful of > the arammana that > are satipatthana. > > 3) Satipatthana is the path taken by the > Sammasambuddha the Arahanta > and the ariya-savanna. > > It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the > eight ariya-magga > or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be > mindful of the > characteristics of each reality that arises and > appears through > the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind > each day to arise, > according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the > akusala-dhamma > accumulated over such a long period of time in the > samsara-vatta, > even including this lifetime each day since our > birth. Those who > understand the causes and results of realities as > they truly are > would therefore be persistent in listening to, > studying and > examining the dhamma to understand about realities > through the > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until > it becomes > paccaya to compose satipatthana to arise and to be > correctly > mindful, take note, examine and study the > characteristics of the > realities appearing according to what one has heard > and understood. > All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold > ariya-magga, > are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya > or when the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently > accumulated, there > would be no more turning towards other practices > than mindfulness, > noting and examining nama-dhamma and > rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, > ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense and mind. (End quote.) > > > > Finally: Occuring for such an infinitesimally > brief > > period, does all of this really matter, for > practical > > purposes? Or is this only of theoretical > importance? > > > It is essential if one wants to know the truth about > things, which > for an eternity has never been taught. Again, > nothing is lost, so > in fact these tiny instants can actually eradicate > an eternity of > wrong view when accumulated to certain level, which > is a wonderous > discovery, because there is no other way at all! > For me personally > I prefer to live with knowledge of things as they > really are, even > if it is only in tiny instants, rather than in > complete ignorance > and illusion. I do not expect immediate results, > but at least there > is a glimmer of light in that direction and if we > walk one step at > a time we are sure to reach it one day, and I am > secure in the > knowledge that this path leads me to selflessness, > and any freedom > from the self is always kusala both for myself and > for other people. > Reading this now with the self may be discouraging, > 'when am I ever > going to reach this or that impossibly far off goal, > what are my > accumulations exactly, what if all my efforts are in > vain?' > > But in reality whether we know it or not, they are > all thoughts > arising from seeing for passing instants 'vanno' > through the eyes, > followed by long trains of thoughts interposed by > bhavanga, more > sight, plus other nama and rupa arising. These are > all real and we > do not know their true nature without studying them, > and studying > them is the only way, according to the Buddha, to > accumulate > knowledge about them to such a degree that it could > free you from > all ignorance and kilesa. It may seem an impossibly > difficult and > long term project, but one must start somewhere and > why not know > that it can arise at any time and place and study as > often as sati > can arise? The Buddha spent impossibly long eons > studying also, > ever since he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara > to be a future > Buddha four assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa > ago. The dhamma > is not easy, in fact Khun Sujin said to say that it > is hard is to > appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha. > > This is why he exhorted us to be brave and cheerful, > and have viriya > or perseverence against all odds, so that we live in > knowledge of > things as they really are and could reach the > ultimate knowledge one > day, after all we must all have very good > accumulations to have > found his teachings and kalayanamitta along the way. > It is an > ultimately lonely path that each must walk alone, > but while we are > in such company it is both beneficial and > encouraging, after all the > sasana is still there to lead us to the truth and > freedom, > > Sorry for the endless essay, hope you find something > useful, > > Amara > > PS. When you address me as ma'am I couldn't help > wondering if I > sounded overly pedantic, sir! > > 1127 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 7:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA Dear Shin, No, you did not cause akusala cittas to arise because you sincerely thought that you were helping a terribly injured child. The people that began it, thought it up, they have created akusala kamma for themselves. Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: shinlin Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: PLEASE HELP.......A DAD'S PLEA > Dear M. Betty, > Thankyou for your advise. Actually at the time, I was unable to > determine whether it was real or not. All I thought of, was that if it is > true, that was the least I could do to help. At the same time, I sort of > analysized that if I sent this mail to the dhamma friends, it would not be > of any lost to them because it is only a mail. That is why, I sent it. > If there is anything, which I have caused to make the akusula citta to > arise, I sincerely apologize for this matter and to the arising of akusula > citta. > with metta, > Shin 1128 From: m. nease Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 8:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Robert et al., Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair to say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna usually refers to understanding, and that yoniso manasikara refers to 'attending', in the sense of deliberately taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks to Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection refers specifically to samatha bhavana: Sabbasava Sutta: "...When attending unwisely non-arisen desires arise and arisen desires grow. When attending wisely non-arisen desires do not arise and arisen desires fade. Bhikkhus, there are desires to be turned out reflecting wisely..." http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/002-sabbasava-sutta-e1.htm Vitakka-santhana Sutta "...When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). Like an experienced carpenter or carpenter's apprentice, striking hard at, pushing out, and getting rid of a coarse peg with a fine one, should the bhikkhu in order to get rid of the adventitious object, reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. Then the evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate and delusion are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation)." http://www.geocities.com/~wtwilson3/removal.htm My Pali is nearly non-existent, so I'm not sure that yoniso manasikara is what's being referred to in these discourses. They, do reflect, though, what I took this to mean in the past--before I found this group. Please advise! Thanks...mn wrote: > Yoniso manisikara means correct or wise attention; > when there is wise attention to an object there are > kusala cittas arising. > > Sampajana: clear comprehension. There are four > types: > from the satipatthana sutta commenatary; "1What > takes > place together with the aim called growth according > to > the Dhamma is purpose. The clear comprehension of > purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear > comprehension of purpose. 2The clear comprehension > of > what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear > comprehension of suitability. 3The clear > comprehension > of the (mental) resort which is called the subject > of > meditation that is unrelinquished, in going > backwards > and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is > the > clear comprehension of resort. 4Clear comprehension > of > NON_DELUSION is non-delusion that is clearly > comprehending and is called non-stupefaction" > > When we talk about satipatthana we mean only the > fourth type of sampajanna- NON DELUSION. > > And this is decribed in the commentary as follows > "Further, non-confusion in going forwards and so > forth > is the clear comprehension of non-delusion. That > should be understood in the following way: -- In > this > Dispensation, a monk, without confusing himself, > like > a blinded worldling who, while going forwards or > backwards, becomes muddle-headed, and believes thus: > "The soul (or self) goes forward" or "The act of > going > forwards is produced by the soul," or "I go > forwards" > or "The act of going forwards is produced by me," > and > the like, thinks: "When there is the arising in one > of > the thought 'I am going forwards,' just with that > thought, appears the process of oscillation > originating from mind which brings to birth bodily > expression (or intimation). Thus by the way of the > diffusion of the process of oscillation due to > mental > activity, this skeleton called the body goes > forward." > As we can see whenever there is sampajanna there > must > be wise attention. It seems to me that these two > words > are synonyms with perhaps subtle differences in > meaning making one term suitable at times and > another > suitable at other times. Panna is also a synonym as > is amoha. 1129 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 4:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Dear Mary, I'm so glad to see that Mike's got to the bugging others stage! (that's our 2nd level, Mike!) Yes, hope there's plenty to push you in the open (1st level!) and as Jonothan said, if you feel like filling in any background, it helps us understand 'where you come from' so to speak. Hope you find the posts as useful as the rest of us, Thanks for mentioning your presence. You may get a shock when you see what a week's worth of mail amounts to these days...we've broken all records and we're not even half way through the month. Some members like Leonardo and myself are always trying to catch up! Best wishes, Sarah >Hello everyone, > >I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging me to get on board >and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very informative and >well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not sure I'll have much >to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest will be pee-qued >just enough to push me out in the open. > >I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. > >Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. > >Much Metta, >Mary > 1130 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear friends , A little more on sila and wisdom. The Buddha said that of all evil the worst is miccha-ditthi. Does that surprise? Which is worst, killing your mother and father, causing a schism in the sangha, killing an arahant or miccha-ditthi of the type that denies causality and kamma? According to buddhist teachings the very worst crime which if clung to must lead to immediate rebirth in hell (at death) is this type of miccha-ditthi! And all extreme types of miccha-ditthi are spring from, are rooted in sakkya ditthi- the belief that the five khandas (which are only ephemeral phenomena) are self. If someone holds only sakkya ditthi - but it has not blossomed into strong miccha-ditthi (he still believes in kamma and result)then he can still do samattha bhavana. But who knows when the one with sakkya ditthi will do some evil. Devadatta had full mastery of mundane jhanas - an impressive accomplishment- but because of sakkya ditthi, self view, he later commited extreme akusala. Sakkya ditthi causes us enormous conflict in life . We think "sons have I, wealth have I" and thus when sons and wealth perish we suffer greatly. In truth there is no I, - what to speak of sons and wealth " (I paraphrase a sutta here.) In short sila and samattha can take us to the highest realms of existence but it is ditthi, view, that keeps us in samsara. We can accomplish sila and samattha even outside a Buddha's dispensation but we can only develop wisdom that breaks up the causes for samsara by hearing, considering and applying the deep teachings to do with the void, anatta, the pancakhanda, dhatus, ayatanas, paticcusamupada, 24 paccaya. Robert 1131 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert et al., > > Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair to > say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna usually > refers to understanding, and that yoniso manasikara > refers to 'attending', in the sense of deliberately > taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks to > Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection refers > specifically to samatha bhavana: > This made me think a bit more (thanks Mike).Yoniso maniskara is present during moments of vipassana as well as during moments of samattha. However it is true that the type of sampajana that is called non-delusion arises only during satipatthana-(and yoniso manisikara is there too). Manisikara, attention, is a cetasika that arises with every citta. When it arises with samattha its object is one of the 40 objects that condition calm. When it arises with vipassana its object is a paramattha dhamma. When manisikara arise with akusala citta it is not yoniso. I said earler that it seems like yoniso manisikara and sampajana are synonyms but this shows they may be different although they arise together. Robert > 1132 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 9:22pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear friends , > A little more on sila and wisdom. > The Buddha said that of all > evil the worst is miccha-ditthi. Dear Robert and friends, Yes, it is. Ditthi is the foundation of everything we act, say, and think. If we have wrong view, how unfortunate we are. With right view, everything is falling into its place. However, to have right view, we must have panna. Only panna may eradicate avijja. And only at the level of sotapanna, we can have samma ditthi. For most of us, we just have to continue studying. Gradually, when conditions are right, panna will be there. Thank you, Robert. Metta, Alex 1133 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Robert et. al, Manasikara cetaskia arises with every citta, be it Kusala, Akusala, Vipaka, and Kiriya. Yoniso manaskira, as discussed by the bay area studying group, arises with only Kusala citta (also Kiriya citta???). When the citta is Kusala, the companying manasikara is considered yoniso regardless if panna arises along with it. Yoniso manaskira therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's not considered as samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana. Sampajanya is panna. The question is what level of panna is Sampajanya. Since I don't remember ever seeing it being used outside of Satipatthana, I am inclined to think that it is at the level of Satipatthana. I remember the short thai translation of "Sati Sampajanya" as knowing thoroughly, knowing completely. My understanding of these definitions are murky at best, as it is remembering something that somebody has said. Hope this doesn't add to the confusion. Besides as a cetasika, manasikara is also used to describe cittas: Dhavaravajanna citta opens the way to "vidhi" cittas. Potappana citta opens the way to Jhavana cittas. In a sense, then manasikara opens the way to whether the Jhavana citta is kusala or akusala. Yoniso manasikara opens the way for the jhavana citta for being kusala. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Manisikara, attention, is a cetasika that arises > with every citta. When it arises with samattha its > object is one of the 40 objects that condition calm. > When it arises with vipassana its object is a > paramattha dhamma. When manisikara arise with akusala > citta it is not yoniso. 1134 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Hi Alex, My understanding of the term samma ditthi is that it is panna knowing the realities as they are. Lay people who "develop" satipatthana may also have samma ditthi; however, only sotapanna can eradicate micha-ditthi permanently. --- protectID wrote: > However, to have right view, we must have panna. Only panna may > eradicate avijja. And only at the level of sotapanna, we can have > samma ditthi. > > For most of us, we just have to continue studying. Gradually, > when conditions are right, panna will be there. > > Thank you, Robert. > > Metta, > Alex 1135 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: meditation/dhamma study Robert, sorry for the late response.... I found yr notes with Nina's partial translation of the commentary v.helpful. When it's appropriate & you feel so inclined, do pls add any other parts from yr correspondence with her and discussion on any particular suttas, commentary notes she has made... thanks to Leonardo for the original dhamma list mail from Sean Whittle too.... Sarah >I had some discussion with Nina (letter in 1992)about >this sutta. >The "monks who are dedicated to Dhamma" is the >translation of the Pali Dhamma-yoga (I prefer Whittles >translation of this term to one I read that had >Dhamma zealot). Interestingly both of these groups of >monks - the Dhamma dedicated and the jhana Bhikkhus >had attained stages of enlightenment. They cannot have >been Arahant though or they would not have disputed. > >The last part of the sutta about the Dhamma yoga >bhikkhus (which Whittle translates as "extraordinary >person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees."); the Thai has: "they are wondrous because >they fully penetrate the deep meaning by panna". > >I see that Whittle also had the commentary. It would >be good to ask him to translate this also rather than >just give a very brief note as he did. We are >painfully short of commentarial translations whereas >this sutta has been translated several times already. > > Nina translated part of it: >The ancient commentary "Dhamma yoga Bhikkhus: they are >often (continuosly) with the Dhamma. >Jhana Bhikkus (meditators):they touch the deathless >(amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body >i.e.cetasikas) >The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma) >penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas >(aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas >(sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta >(i.e the citta that experiences nibbana)together with >vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which >penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level >of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends. > > > > > > Thus I have heard -- On one occasion the Venerable > > Mahacunda was living in > > Ceti at Sayamjati. At that time, the Venerable > > Mahacunda addressed the > > monks: "Monks!" > > > > "Yes, friend." > > > > "Here, friends, there are monks who are dedicated to > > the Dhamma that harass > > and disparage the meditation monks[1] by saying: > > 'Those meditators, they > > meditate, premeditate, out-meditate, and > > mismeditate[2]. Of what do they > > meditate upon? On account of what do they meditate? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma, nor > > the meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice for > > the good and well-being of the multitude, nor for > > the welfare, the good, and > > the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, there are meditation monks that > > harass and disparage the > > monks who are dedicated to the Dhamma by saying: > > 'Those monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma are conceited, arrogant, and > > unsteady, talkative and > > scattered in speech, absent-minded and unmindful, > > with minds wandering and > > faculties unrestrained. Of what are they dedicated > > to the Dhamma for? On > > account of what are they dedicated to the Dhamma? > > What is their > > motivation?' Here, neither the meditation monks, > > nor the monks who are > > dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. Moreover, > > they do not practice > > for the good and well-being of the multitude, nor > > for the welfare, the good, > > and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "In addition, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma speak delightful > > only to other monks dedicated to the Dhamma, and do > > not speak delightful to > > the meditation monks. Here, neither the meditation > > monks, nor the monks who > > are dedicated to the Dhamma find contentment. > > Moreover, they do not > > practice for the good and well-being of the > > multitude, nor for the welfare, > > the good, and the well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Likewise, friends, the meditation monks speak > > delightful only to other > > meditation monks, and do not speak delightful to the > > monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma. Here, neither the monks who are dedicated > > to the Dhamma, nor the > > meditation monks find contentment. Moreover, they > > do not practice for the > > good and well-being of the multitude, nor for the > > welfare, the good, and the > > well-being of gods and men. > > > > "Therefore, friends, the monks dedicated to the > > Dhamma should train > > themselves thus: 'We will speak in a delightful > > manner to the meditation > > monks.' Thus you should train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is > > rare that one finds an extraordinary person who > > dwells having personally > > attained the deathless element[3]. Similarly, > > friends, the meditation monks > > should train themselves thus: 'We will speak in a > > delightful manner to the > > monks dedicated to the Dhamma.' Thus you should > > train yourself. For what > > reason? Friends, it is rare that one finds an > > extraordinary person who has > > come to know and pierced the profound and beneficial > > sayings and truly > > sees." > > > > Notes: > > > > 1. The commentary explains that monks dedicated to > > the Dhamma are called > > this because they expound the teachings, and the > > monks who are meditators > > are called this simply because they meditate(or > > dwell in mental absorption). > > > > 2. jhayanti pajjhayanti nijjhayanti avajjhayanti: > > This is a passage which is > > meant to be a disparaging description of one's > > meditation practice. It > > appears in the Majjhima Nikaya in sutta 50 as a > > remark to cause virtuous > > monks to become disparaged so Mara could find an > > opportunity, and in sutta > > 108 as a description of one's mental absorption > > while being obsessed by the > > five hindrances. Though the precise meaning is > > unknown to me, I have > > followed Bhikkhu Bodhi(from his MN translation) in > > rendering these with > > their literal meanings. > > > > 3. nibbana > > Sean > > > > 1136 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Robert, Thanks for expanding on this area. I suppose Miccha-ditthi is the worst of all evil because it prevents nibbhana. Most other kinds of evil, except for the ones you mentioned here, don't prevent nibbhana. Even killing, a karma that seems pretty bad to me, doesn't prevent nibbhana. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear friends , > A little more on sila and wisdom. > The Buddha said that of all > evil the worst is miccha-ditthi. Does that surprise? > Which is worst, killing your mother and father, > causing a schism in the sangha, killing an arahant or > miccha-ditthi of the type that denies causality and > kamma? According to buddhist teachings the very worst > crime which if clung to must lead to immediate rebirth > in hell (at death) is this type of miccha-ditthi! And > all extreme types of miccha-ditthi are spring from, > are rooted in sakkya ditthi- the belief that the five > khandas (which are only ephemeral phenomena) are self. > 1138 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation/wisdom Ditthi is the foundation of > everything we act, say, > and think. If we have wrong view, how unfortunate > we are. With > right view, everything is falling into its place. > > However, to have right view, we must have panna. > Only panna may > eradicate avijja. And only at the level of > sotapanna, we can have > samma ditthi. > Thanks for the post Alex. You really see how dangerous ditthi is. While only the sotapanna has eliminated miccha-ditthi and sakkya ditthi I think we can still say that when there is true awareness of the characteristic of a dhamma that there is a moment of samma-ditthi. If one is not yet a sotapanna then it is true that lying latent there will be miccha-ditthi. However, the moments of satipatthana are actually digging away, rubbing away, grinding away that miccha-ditthi. When we listen to a little of the deep teaching of abhidhamma or anything about anatta or khandas etc. this is a time when we are clearing the garden for direct understanding of realities (as you encouraged us ). If there has been prior development that lsitening could condition direct understanding immediately and if panna is sufficiently accumulated nibbana could be experienced. Even considering now while we are reading(and writing) this could condition deep insight. In the commentary to the Abhidhamma it gives the story of the 500 extremely wise arahant disciples of sariputta. Remember it was sariputta who received the outline to all the Abhidhamma from the Buddha and passed it on to his students. These men had all been in a long past life bats in a cave at the time of kassapa Buddha (see p21 of the atthasalini). They listened to two monks who used to recite Abhidhamma and although unable to understand the words knew that this is the law. After death they were all born in the deva world until the time of our Buddha when they became monks and arahants. Does this seem implausible? Not when we see realize the extraordinary power of the Dhamma. The Dhamma - the Buddha's teaching - is the condition for overcoming all defilements. The benefits of listening to Abhidhamma are immeasurable - let alone considering and applying it. Of course this cannot have been the first time these monks had listened to Abhidhamma. They had the vipaka to listen because of past merit and they also must have accumlated wisdom before this. How about us now? We are human, we can understand the deep meaning - to varying degrees- of the Abhidhamma. We can distinguish infinitely more than those bats. We can ask questions, consider and perhaps have direct awareness of parammttha dhammas, even at this moment. Surely we are in a fortunate position! Even if we get just one little instant of trifling understanding this is accumulated and passed on( as Amara said so well today). 1139 From: A T Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear Kom, You are correct. I need to be more precise when posting. Otherwise, there may be misunderstanding. Thank you, Kom. Metta, Alex =========== >From: Kom Tukovinit >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:47:43 -0700 (PDT) > >Hi Alex, > >My understanding of the term samma ditthi is that it is panna knowing >the realities as they are. Lay people who "develop" satipatthana may >also have samma ditthi; however, only sotapanna can eradicate >micha-ditthi permanently. > >--- protectID wrote: > > However, to have right view, we must have panna. Only panna may > > eradicate avijja. And only at the level of sotapanna, we can have > > samma ditthi. > > > > For most of us, we just have to continue studying. Gradually, > > when conditions are right, panna will be there. > > > > Thank you, Robert. > > > > Metta, > > Alex 1140 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear alex, Thank you for your humility! Such an asset when we study Dhamma - one like you is always happy to be corrected. Rahula was like that. Robert --- A T wrote: > Dear Kom, > > You are correct. I need to be more precise when > posting. Otherwise, > there may be misunderstanding. > > Thank you, Kom. > > Metta, > Alex > =========== > >From: Kom Tukovinit > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as > foundation > >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:47:43 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Hi Alex, > > > >My understanding of the term samma ditthi is that > it is panna knowing > >the realities as they are. Lay people who > "develop" satipatthana may > >also have samma ditthi; however, only sotapanna can > eradicate > >micha-ditthi permanently. > > 1141 From: amara chay Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:28pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Manasikara cetaskia arises with every citta, be it Kusala, Akusala, > Vipaka, and Kiriya. Yoniso manaskira, as discussed by the bay area > studying group, arises with only Kusala citta (also Kiriya citta???). > When the citta is Kusala, the companying manasikara is considered > yoniso regardless if panna arises along with it. Yoniso manaskira > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's not considered as > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana. Dear friends, I agree with Kom for the first half of this paragraph, the part about the kiriya citta referred to is probably the kiriya citta of the arahanta which replaces the kusala and akusala citta after their attainment. I have to disagree withe the second part since in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana bhavana, page 519, Khun Sujin answered a question: Q: Supposing after paying respect to the Buddha and reciting the mantra, we think of doing kammatthana (meditation), how should one "yonisomanasikara" so that there is no abhijjha and domanassa in the arammana? A: For to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati in the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position one is in. (End quote.) This is also in the website of course, , advanced section, 'Summary' Part IX (Guidelines), in English and Thai. Amara 1142 From: protectID Date: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:39pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for the correction and quoting from A. Sujin. Now, there will be more than just my fuzzy memory to help define Yoniso Manasikara!!! kom --- "amara chay": A: For to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati in > the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore > one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because > one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on > schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying > respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does > not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the > realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are > paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does > not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one > would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and > experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is > performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position > one is in. > > (End quote.) > 1143 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 0:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) --- "m. nease" wrote: > > Thanks (VERY much) to Amara, I think I'm beginning > to > get a handle on this. As I now understand, it (I > hope), since each citta bears all the conditions of > all previous cittas, it is in each citta that > accumulations reside... Mike As you will have realised by now, Amara is a living encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to match (you’d be surprised how many abhidhamma scholars there are who lack that quality!). We are very fortunate to have her on the list, and to have access to the materials on her website. I am glad that your patient consideration has borne fruit. Saddhu. Jonothan 1144 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 0:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear C and Robert, Thanks for these clarifications. My old views need a LOT of refining... mn --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert et. al, > > Manasikara cetaskia arises with every citta, be it > Kusala, Akusala, > Vipaka, and Kiriya. Yoniso manaskira, as discussed > by the bay area > studying group, arises with only Kusala citta (also > Kiriya citta???). > When the citta is Kusala, the companying manasikara > is considered > yoniso regardless if panna arises along with it. > Yoniso manaskira > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > not considered as > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana. > > Sampajanya is panna. The question is what level of > panna is > Sampajanya. Since I don't remember ever seeing it > being used outside > of Satipatthana, I am inclined to think that it is > at the level of > Satipatthana. I remember the short thai translation > of "Sati > Sampajanya" as knowing thoroughly, knowing > completely. > > My understanding of these definitions are murky at > best, as it is > remembering something that somebody has said. Hope > this doesn't add to > the confusion. > > Besides as a cetasika, manasikara is also used to > describe cittas: > > Dhavaravajanna citta opens the way to "vidhi" > cittas. > Potappana citta opens the way to Jhavana cittas. > In a sense, then manasikara opens the way to whether > the Jhavana citta > is kusala or akusala. Yoniso manasikara opens the > way for the jhavana > citta for being kusala. > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Manisikara, attention, is a cetasika that arises > > with every citta. When it arises with samattha its > > object is one of the 40 objects that condition > calm. > > When it arises with vipassana its object is a > > paramattha dhamma. When manisikara arise with > akusala > > citta it is not yoniso. > > 1145 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 0:46am Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair to > say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna usually > refers to understanding, and that yoniso manasikara > refers to 'attending', in the sense of deliberately > taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks to > Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection refers > specifically to samatha bhavana: Dear Mike, I have been thinking about your question, and I think we may safely say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to know what is good for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what is less suitable for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, asammoha sampajanna is also to know the difference between ignorance and right understanding, an essential prerequisite for panna that sees things as they really are. Sati sampajanna on the other hand is to be aware through all the dvara without prejudices or preferences. The first comes before the latter begins, and continues to support its future arising. Yoniso manasikara is right attention, instead of thinking of the object in terms of theories and attachments, it studies the characteristics of the realities that appear as aramana at that instant, as they really are. There is seeing now, the characteristics of seeing is vastly different from hearing, or tasting or the body sense, or thinking. Their objects or aramana are completely distinct. They are paramatthadhamma which none can change, arising and falling away according to conditions, uncontrolable. This is the truth, right before your eyes, so to speak. There is such an infinity of things to study in the dhamma, if you have awareness, and begin to see things you were never aware of before, in fact you will find it very interesting, to say the least. So, we must, as the Buddha taught us, be brave and cheerful and keep studying! (Which is why the arahanta are the only people who do not need to study any more, they have full knowledge of things as they really are.) Anumodana in your keen interest, Amara 1147 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:02am Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear) Amara is a living > encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to > match (you'd be surprised how many abhidhamma scholars > there are who lack that quality Dear mike, Jonothan is too kind, I wish what he said were true but it is not, I just know where to look for the real encyclopedia! Glad to have helped in any way, Amara 1148 From: A T Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation Dear Robert, Thank you for the compliment. I'm humble to be compared to Ven. Rahula. Mettta, Alex Tran ============================ >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sila as foundation >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:23:02 -0700 (PDT) > >Dear alex, >Thank you for your humility! Such an asset when we >study Dhamma - one like you is always happy to be >corrected. Rahula was like that. >Robert >--- A T wrote: > Dear Kom, > > > > You are correct. I need to be more precise when > > posting. Otherwise, > > there may be misunderstanding. > > > > Thank you, Kom. > > > > Metta, > > Alex > > =========== 1149 From: m. nease Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 4:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Amara, this is excellent. Thanks, everyone for the many insightful clarifications...mn --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > Robert's post jogged my memory. Would it be fair > to > > say, for practical purposes, that sampajanna > usually > > refers to understanding, and that yoniso > manasikara > > refers to 'attending', in the sense of > deliberately > > taking as an object? As I understand it (thanks > to > > Jonothan and Robert), this kind of reflection > refers > > specifically to samatha bhavana: > > > Dear Mike, > > I have been thinking about your question, and I > think we may safely > say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to > know what is good > for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what > is less suitable > for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, > asammoha sampajanna is > also to know the difference between ignorance and > right > understanding, an essential prerequisite for panna > that sees things > as they really are. Sati sampajanna on the other > hand is to be > aware through all the dvara without prejudices or > preferences. The > first comes before the latter begins, and continues > to support its > future arising. > > Yoniso manasikara is right attention, instead of > thinking of the > object in terms of theories and attachments, it > studies the > characteristics of the realities that appear as > aramana at that > instant, as they really are. There is seeing now, > the > characteristics of seeing is vastly different from > hearing, or > tasting or the body sense, or thinking. Their > objects or aramana > are completely distinct. They are paramatthadhamma > which none can > change, arising and falling away according to > conditions, > uncontrolable. This is the truth, right before your > eyes, so to > speak. > > There is such an infinity of things to study in the > dhamma, if you > have awareness, and begin to see things you were > never aware of > before, in fact you will find it very interesting, > to say the least. > So, we must, as the Buddha taught us, be brave and > cheerful and keep > studying! (Which is why the arahanta are the only > people who do not > need to study any more, they have full knowledge of > things as they > really are.) > > Anumodana in your keen interest, > > Amara > > > 1150 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 7:31am Subject: Ajahn Chah I just ran across this at Dhamma-List, also at Egroups. As an erstwhile student of Ajahn Chah's descendants, I've admired him for a long time. But sometimes I forget (and he often doesn't get credit for) his solid (I think!) grasp of abhidhamma. This is pretty simple stuff for the members of this group, but I wanted to share it with you anyway. I think this group is well equipped to appreciate it... As Ajahn Chah wrote in A Taste for Freedom: There are two kinds of peace -- the coarse and the refined. The peace which comes from samadhi is the coarse type. When the mind is peaceful there is happiness. The mind then takes this happiness to be peace. But happiness and unhappiness are becoming and birth. There is no escape from samsara here because we still cling to them. So happiness is not peace, peace is not happiness. The other type of peace is that which comes from wisdom. Here we don't confuse peace with happiness; we know the mind which contemplates and knows happiness and unhappiness as peace. The peace which arises from wisdom is not happiness, but is that which sees the truth of both happiness and unhappiness. Clinging to those states does not arise, the mind rises above them. This is the true goal of all Buddhist practice. (thanks to Greg Bester) 1151 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:29am Subject: Re: Ajahn Chah Robert, thanks for your kindness in replying off-list. In retrospect, I've been totally off-base about this, haven't I... Oh well! Back to the old drawing board... mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > Is there a mind? > Robert --- protectID wrote: > I just ran across this at Dhamma-List, also at Egroups. As an > erstwhile student of Ajahn Chah's descendants, I've admired him for > a long time. But sometimes I forget (and he often doesn't get > credit for) his solid (I think!) grasp of abhidhamma. > > This is pretty simple stuff for the members of this group, but I > wanted to share it with you anyway. I think this group is well > equipped to appreciate it... > > As Ajahn Chah wrote in A Taste for Freedom: > > There are two kinds of peace -- the coarse and the refined. The > peace which comes from samadhi is the coarse type. When the mind is > peaceful there is happiness. The mind then takes this happiness to > be peace. But happiness and unhappiness are becoming and birth. > There is no escape from samsara here because we still cling to > them. So happiness is not peace, peace is not happiness. > > The other type of peace is that which comes from wisdom. Here we > don't confuse peace with happiness; we know the mind which > contemplates and knows happiness and unhappiness as peace. The > peace which arises from wisdom is not happiness, but is that which > sees the truth of both happiness and unhappiness. Clinging to those > states does not arise, the mind rises above them. This is the true > goal of all Buddhist practice. > > (thanks to Greg Bester) 1152 From: protectID Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 9:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello from Mary Hi Mary Welcome to our group, I'm sure you'll find so much information like myself, I've found this is another class of dhamma (beside Thai classes we have twice a week) only this one give me an opportunity to learn dhamma in English.espeacially the interaction between our members are very beneficial to all of us. Thanks to all, with metta, O 1153 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Chah --- Dear Mike, You are very quick to see considering you only had four words to work with (Is there a mind?)! We can see how ones like sariputta could become enlightened after a couple of sentences provided they had already accumulated much panna. Just for those of us who like/need details and repetition (please tell me if I sound like a stuck record sometimes) here is some more. I do appreciate that aacharn Cha was pointing out the clinging that we have to happy states and how real understanding sees all states as just dhammas- no preference. That is very helpful. Putting things simply is fine. However, Dhamma is deep - yet too many people think that because they understand simple aphorisms that they are really getting to the heart of Buddhism. Why do we have such a tendency to cling to pleasant states? The reason is because of vipallasa, perversions of view, that thinks such states last. We really believe that there is a mind that exists. Everyone, even from other religions or no religion, knows that mind changes rapidly, this is obvious even to citta with lobha or moha; but everyone (except the wise) still think it is "my mind" that is changing. If someone reads the passage by Cha and they have not properly understood Abhidhamma then it is inevitable that they will think it is "my mind" that clings or doesn't cling. However it is a cetasika, lobha, that clings; that is its function, when it arises it carries out its function, it is not our lobha, it is merely paramattha dhamma. If someone reads the passage and doesn't realize that there is no mind, that a trillion cittas, all different from the preceeding ones, arose and passed away just while they were reading it, then they might misunderstand. This is not to criticize Cha: you only cited a short piece, the very next paragraph may have explained this and the rest of the article/book may well have given innumerable details that make this point much clearer than I can. In the begining we - us serious Buddhsits that is- are very concerned with pleasant and unpleasant mindstates and later we are pleased when we develop equanamity about all these. This equanamity can be taken for a sign that progress in insight has occured. However it can all still be taken for self. We have to comprehend that all dhammas that occur in daily life must be treated as object for insight. Seeing is a nama, it arises again and again. Is there any understanding of it at this instant or are we intent on "balancing the faculties" or "not having clinging"? The citta that sees at this moment is a different citta from a second ago - and now that one has gone, forever; no man, no god can bring it back. This is theory- only by investigating, patiently, correctly, wisely, again and again, life after life can it be fully known. Robert > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > Is there a mind? > > Robert > > --- protectID > wrote: > > I just ran across this at Dhamma-List, also at > Egroups. As an > > erstwhile student of Ajahn Chah's descendants, > I've admired him for > > a long time. But sometimes I forget (and he often > doesn't get > > credit for) his solid (I think!) grasp of > abhidhamma. > > > > This is pretty simple stuff for the members of > this group, but I > > wanted to share it with you anyway. I think this > group is well > > equipped to appreciate it... > > > > As Ajahn Chah wrote in A Taste for Freedom: > > > > There are two kinds of peace -- the coarse and the > refined. The > > peace which comes from samadhi is the coarse type. > When the mind is > > peaceful there is happiness. The mind then takes > this happiness to > > be peace. But happiness and unhappiness are > becoming and birth. > > There is no escape from samsara here because we > still cling to > > them. So happiness is not peace, peace is not > happiness. > > > > The other type of peace is that which comes from > wisdom. Here we > > don't confuse peace with happiness; we know the > mind which > > contemplates and knows happiness and unhappiness > as peace. The > > peace which arises from wisdom is not happiness, > but is that which > > sees the truth of both happiness and unhappiness. > Clinging to those > > states does not arise, the mind rises above them. > This is the true > > goal of all Buddhist practice. > > > > (thanks to Greg Bester) > > 1154 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, kom wrote > "Yoniso manaskira > > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > not considered as > > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana."' And you replied "I have to disagree withe the second part since in > the book 'Summary > of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana > bhavana, page 519,.....' And you said or implied that yoniso arises only with satipatthana and ceratianly not with kusala citta unasscociated with panna. I wasn't sure about this. Since manisikara is one of the seven universals (sabbacittasadharana) that arises with every citta it is of the four jatis of akusala, kusala, vipaka and kiriya. We are taking about only the jati of kusala and for this reason I thought they might call any kusala manisikara - yoniso. I saw the folowing in the atthasalini (I Part ii chapter 1 63) taking about kusala " its proximate cause is wise attention" - asuming wise attention is yoniso manisikara (sorry no pali) this seems to support Kom's idea that all kusala maisikara is yoniso. Of course if this were true the yoniso manisikara of samattha, vipassana and kusal without panna would all be different but still possibly classified under yoniso. I have never given any of this much thought before - I may be completely wrong. Robert 1155 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:25pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Amara, > kom wrote > > "Yoniso manaskira > > > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > > not considered as > > > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana."' > > And you replied > "I have to disagree withe the second part since in > > the book 'Summary > > of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana > > bhavana, page 519,.....' And you said or implied > that yoniso arises only with satipatthana and > ceratianly not with kusala citta unasscociated with > panna. Dear Robert, I was quoting from her book, if you looked again, I said, I have to disagree withe the second part since in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana bhavana, page 519, Khun Sujin answered a question: Q: Supposing after paying respect to the Buddha and reciting the mantra, we think of doing kammatthana (meditation), how should one "yonisomanasikara" so that there is no abhijjha and domanassa in the arammana? A: For there to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati in the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position one is in. (End quote.) This is also in the website of course, advanced section, 'Summary' Part IX (Guidelines), in English and Thai. > I wasn't sure about this. Since manisikara is one of > the seven universals (sabbacittasadharana) that arises > with every citta it is of the four jatis of akusala, > kusala, vipaka and kiriya. We are taking about only > the jati of kusala and for this reason I thought they > might call any kusala manisikara - yoniso. I saw the > folowing in the atthasalini (I Part ii chapter 1 63) > taking about kusala "its proximate cause is wise > attention" - asuming wise attention is yoniso > manisikara (sorry no pali) this seems to support Kom's > idea that all kusala maisikara is yoniso. Of course if > this were true the yoniso manisikara of samattha, > vipassana and kusal without panna would all be > different but still possibly classified under yoniso. > I have never given any of this much thought before - I > may be completely wrong. > Robert Thanks for the analysis, it sounds like solid reasoning. Perhaps here she was talking about the person's wrong practice? I will ask her if you wish, Amara 1156 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara --- > > Robert > > Thanks for the analysis, it sounds like solid > reasoning. Perhaps > here she was talking about the person's wrong > practice? I will ask > her if you wish, > > Amara Dear amara, It is an extremely small point - howver since we have discussed it at length it would be good to get a final conclusion. Robert > > > > > 1157 From: amara chay Date: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:28pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > It is an extremely small point - howver since we have > discussed it at length it would be good to get a final > conclusion. Dear Robert, Kom and friends, I'm very glad that Robert commented on this, and that Kom brought it up: I just asked Khun Sujin about this and she said that what Kom and Robert said about this was right, there can be only two kinds of manasikara, ayoniso and yoniso, and when the citta is kusala it is always yoniso. The quotation I posted was about a question about samatha bhavana, which was why she answered about samatha practice and miccha samadhi. I'm glad we didn't let that one pass, which shows how much we, especially I, still have to learn, Khun Sujin said herself that it is impossible for only one person to know all that is in the Tipitaka (although she herself has never been unable to answer any question of mine). Amara 1158 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:19am Subject: Re: Ajahn Chah --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > (Is there a mind?) Dear Robert and Friends, That reminds me of a question: On page 44 of 'Buddhism in Daily Life', Nina writes, "Samatha can purify the mind, but it cannot eradicate unwholesome latent tendencies." I do understand about the anusaya. But in her use (here) of 'mind', is she referring to citta? i.e., that samatha can condition the arising of (grossly) kusala citta, but without eradicating the present anusaya? Thanks in advance, mn 1159 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Chah Dear Mike, Yes. Well put. Robert --- Robert > Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > (Is there a mind?) > > Dear Robert and Friends, > > That reminds me of a question: On page 44 of > 'Buddhism in Daily > Life', Nina writes, "Samatha can purify the mind, > but it cannot > eradicate unwholesome latent tendencies." I do > understand about the > anusaya. But in her use (here) of 'mind', is she > referring to > citta? i.e., that samatha can condition the > arising of (grossly) > kusala citta, but without eradicating the present > anusaya? > > Thanks in advance, > > mn > > 1160 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 2:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for posting the original quote and thanks again for following up with A. Sujin on the question. You wouldn't know many times the bay area studying group ends up with a question like this and ends up at a loss of how to answer it. You are very fortunate to be so close to such a knowledgeable dhamma friend. kom --- amara chay wrote: > > > > > It is an extremely small point - howver since we have > > discussed it at length it would be good to get a final > > conclusion. > > > Dear Robert, Kom and friends, > > I'm very glad that Robert commented on this, and that Kom brought it > up: I just asked Khun Sujin about this and she said that what Kom > and Robert said about this was right, there can be only two kinds of > manasikara, ayoniso and yoniso, and when the citta is kusala it is > always yoniso. > > The quotation I posted was about a question about samatha bhavana, > which was why she answered about samatha practice and miccha > samadhi. > > I'm glad we didn't let that one pass, which shows how much we, > especially I, still have to learn, Khun Sujin said herself that it > is impossible for only one person to know all that is in the > Tipitaka (although she herself has never been unable to answer any > question of mine). > > Amara 1161 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 3:28am Subject: Re: Hello from Mary Dear Mary, I'm glad that Mike introduced you to this group. I'm new here, too. I'm looking forward to see you in the discussion. There's a lot to learn. Be sure to drop by www.dhammastudy.www, the excellent website maintained by Khun Amara. It has a lot of materials for us to learn right there. If you have any questions, please post them here so that others and ... I :-))) may benefit from them, too. With the metta from Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, Kom, O, Mike, Leonardo, Khun, Sujin, ... plus the answers from Khun Sujin, I'm sure that there will be no doubt left. Metta, Alex Tran ================================ --- "Mary Reinard" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to this list. Mike Nease has been bugging me to get on board > and take a peak. I see why. This is indeed a very informative and > well versed group. Certainly a lot to learn, not sure I'll have much > to add, but perhaps from time to time my interest will be pee-qued > just enough to push me out in the open. > > I'm just off for a week but thought I'd say hello just the same. > > Am looking forward to watching and sharing with this group. > > Much Metta, > Mary 1162 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 4:13am Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Thanks for posting the original quote and thanks again for following up > with A. Sujin on the question. You wouldn't know many times the bay > area studying group ends up with a question like this and ends up at a > loss of how to answer it. You are very fortunate to be so close to > such a knowledgeable dhamma friend. Dear Khun Kom and group, Please let me know if you have any more of this kind of questions, I would be more than happy to find out for you. Tan Achaan is never happier than when there are questions, as you know. When she is in town, she is always accessible, otherwise there are the English discussion groups where we can ask anything, since it is relatively small. We are indeed lucky to have such a kalayanamitta, so I hope you will allow me to forward your questions to her so that we can all learn from both them and her answers, Amara 1163 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 4:29am Subject: Re: Hello from Mary > I'm sure > that there will be no doubt left. Dear Alex, I'm glad you are a real optimist, you know that the person who has no more 'doubts' in the dhamma are the sotapanna? =^_^= (Personally I would prefer to translate vicikiccha as uncertainty though). Just kidding, =^_^= =^_^= Amara 1164 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 0:58pm Subject: Re: Hello from Mary --- "amara chay" wrote: > > I'm sure > > that there will be no doubt left. > > > Dear Alex, > > I'm glad you are a real optimist, you know that the person who has no > more 'doubts' in the dhamma are the sotapanna? =^_^= Dear Amara, How are you? The list is quiet tonight. So, here I am to stir up the peace. After the question answered clearly by Robert, Amara, Sarah, Jonothan, Kom, Mike, Leonardo, O, ... there will be no doubt left in the mind of the questioner for that question alone. He/She then may go to the next question because he/she is not a sotapanna yet! This process will continue until he/she reaches the level of a sotapanna. =^_^= By the way, I like this cute smiling face of yours. Is it copyrighted? And who knows, with the help from this dhammastudy group, one may attain sotapanna because once the conditions are fulfilled, it may happen at any time. >(Personally I > would prefer to translate vicikiccha as uncertainty though). Just > kidding, =^_^= =^_^= (a smiling face here) Just in case =^_^= is copyrighted by our dear Amara. > Amara AT 1165 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight Dear Alex, I was thinking the same thing - about the list been quiet. It has been a month to remember - so many excellent posts. Hard work for all of us; reading, considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition kusala citta? I have hardly had time to glance at a pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about paramattha dhammas. Say what you will about the internet - but it has its uses. Robert > Dear Amara, > > How are you? The list is quiet tonight. So, here > I am to stir up > the peace. > Alex 1166 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 1:46pm Subject: Re: Hello from Mary > > How are you? The list is quiet tonight. So, here I am to stir up > the peace. > =^_^= By the way, I like this cute smiling face of yours. Is it > copyrighted? > > And who knows, with the help from this dhammastudy group, one may > attain sotapanna because once the conditions are fulfilled, it may > happen at any time. > (a smiling face here) Just in case =^_^= is copyrighted by our > dear Amara. Hi! Busy translating an article (a little long, but very good) Khun Sujin wanted me to put on the web, but not and then taking a peek at the list! You'll like it, Alex though this one IS copywrited by the author and you need her permission to print it, unlike my smiling face which I learned thanks to one of the friends who taught me to use the computer. And opened www communication for me so that I've found new friends like you and the whole list, in fact! Amara 1167 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 4:32pm Subject: Re: sila as foundation --- protectID wrote: > I am sorry I have not been able to quote so precisely from the > sources, > as I am quite lacking in English materials. Is there a web site > publishing > the English version of the tipitikas? There is one in Thai... Kom I'm sure someone must have replied to your question, but in case they haven't here are the websites that I know of which publish English versions of the Tipitaka- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/index.html http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/index.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/index.html If anyone knows of others, feel free to post. Jonothan 1168 From: protectID Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 5:52pm Subject: Kamma (was: Accumulations) --- "m. nease" wrote: > > kamma is used in various senses. > > ...does help. Vipaka is too, I guess. I think I've > been taking these to be much more specific terms than > they rightly are. Mike On reading over my original answer I realise that it was less than clear. Please allow me to try again. Kamma is any wholesome or unwholesome deed that brings a result in the form of vipaka. Vipaka is the result of kamma and is experienced as pleasant or unpleasant object through the sense-doors. (This may seem somewhat circular, but please read on.) An example of kamma. If a person intentionally kills another being, that is akusala kamma. It will bring a result in the future in the form of unpleasant experiences through one or more of the sense-doors. An example of vipaka. When a person hears an unpleasant sound, that is vipaka, the result of some previous akusala kamma. (The same applies as regards pleasant/unpleasant visible object, bodily pain etc, the experiences through the 5 sense-doors.) Actually, every experience through a sense door is the result of past kamma (including this moment of seeing). This is the meaning of kamma and vipaka as expressed in conventional terms. But in terms of the moment to moment realities discussed in the abhidhamma, greater precision is possible. In abhidhamma terms, kamma is specifically the cetana cetasika that arises with the citta that performs the wholesome or unwholesome deed. Thus it is sankhara kkhanda. Vipaka is the citta that experiences the sense-door object at the moment of contact (eg the moment of seeing-consciousness etc – the dvi-panca-vinnana cittas). Thus it is vinnana kkhanda. So these are 2 senses in which the terms kamma and vipaka are used (the general and the abhidhamma senses). There is a third and broader/looser sense in which the terms are also often used. Everyone has committed kamma which has yet to bring its result. This accumulated store of kamma waiting to come to fruition is sometimes collectively referred to as a person's kamma. (Here we are referring to an accumulation which, as previously discusssed, is not regarded as a paramattha dhamma as such.) Also, everyone is born into different circumstances in life and achieves different things – different family circumstances, degrees of success in business, popularity etc. These things are dependent on past deeds, and are sometimes referred to as vipaka (or even by some as kamma!). But note that a person could have good fortune in all these respects but nonetheless have a lot of unpleasant sense-door experiences in their life eg pain from illness (akusala vipaka through the body), have to hear a lot of harsh and unpleasant speech; or vice versa for that matter. So although these things are conditioned by kamma they are not vipaka in the strict sense of the term. There is much more to this topic (eg there are other cittas in our lives apart from the dvi-panca-vinnana cittas that are vipaka cittas), but I hope this helps explain the different contexts in which the terms are found. Jonothan 1169 From: A T Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:00pm Subject: New article >From: "amara chay" >Hi! > >Busy translating an article (a little long, but very good) Khun >Sujin wanted me to put on the web, but not and then taking a peek at >the list! You'll like it, Alex though this one IS copywrited by the >author and you need her permission to print it, I know that I'll like it. Please include with the article how to get in touch with her. >unlike my smiling >face which I learned thanks to one of the friends who taught me to >use the computer. It means I can use the smiling face, too. =^_^= >And opened www communication for me so that I've >found new friends like you and the whole list, in fact! Robert just mentioned how good internet is. I agree. Without internet, I wouldn't be able to know how wonderful this group and its related websites. Thank you for your hard work. Alex 1170 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:47pm Subject: Re: New article > I know that I'll like it. Please include with the article how to get in > touch with her. Dear Alex, You don't mean you want to print it in book form! =^_^= Sorry I wasn't clear, you can print out anything from the website, of course, it's just that publication in book form needs to be granted case by case. Actually we're quite easy, so even copyright is mainly a formality for the records! Amara 1171 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 6:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Robert, Amara & Mike, I'm just looking in a copy of pali Lang Dict by Childers which suggests that s'times yonisomanisakara is used in a more general sense to mean 'philosophic attention or devotion of the mind' as in Dhammapada but in the Abhidhamma 'yoniso manisakara is given as a synonym of panna, vijja, nana etc.. Actually i wrote this before i saw KS's reply...so often it depends on the context..I u'stand it arises with all kusala cittas but may be used specifically to refer to panna. On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about the 4 kinds. Specifically I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, sapaya sampajanna..knowing what is suitable. I used to think in terms of 'situation' such as a quiet place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise reflection etc or that given my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke bars are definitely not conducive for the development of any kusala on my part! However, now I realize that what is suitable is referring to the present realities...but...? Perhaps Amara or Robert or anyone else might like to give me some insight! We can hardly say that visible object is suitable if it appears now and there is study of its characteristic! Perhaps Amara & Betty can test their memories and u'standing by filling us in on the recent discussions with K.Sujin! Thanks, Sarah as in > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > > > Dear Amara, > > kom wrote > > > "Yoniso manaskira > > > > therefore arises with kusala citta even when it's > > > not considered as > > > > samatha bhavana or satipatthana bhavana."' > > > > And you replied > > "I have to disagree withe the second part since in > > > the book 'Summary > > > of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana > > > bhavana, page 519,.....' And you said or implied > > that yoniso arises only with satipatthana and > > ceratianly not with kusala citta unasscociated with > > panna. > > >Dear Robert, > >I was quoting from her book, if you looked again, I said, > >I have to disagree withe the second part since in the book 'Summary >of Paramatthadhamma' last chapter, on vipassana bhavana, page 519, >Khun Sujin answered a question: > >Q: Supposing after paying respect to the Buddha and reciting the >mantra, we think of doing kammatthana (meditation), how should one >"yonisomanasikara" so that there is no abhijjha and domanassa in the >arammana? > >A: For there to really be yonisomanasikara, there should be sammasati >in >the development of the eight magga (the eightfold path). Therefore >one should not think of doing kammatthana. One thinks of it because >one is mistaken that there is a self that can make sati arise on >schedule. But sammasati does not need to wait til the end of paying >respect to the Buddha or recital. Who is doing it? Since one does >not know that it is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one mistakes the >realities that are performing the actions for the self, as we who are >paying respect to the Buddha. While reciting mantra since one does >not realize that it is only the nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, one >would take it as oneself who is reciting. Sammasati could arise and >experience the characteristics of one reality or another while one is >performing the rites or in any other instant no matter what position >one is in. >(End quote.) > >This is also in the website of course, >advanced section, 'Summary' Part IX (Guidelines), in English and Thai. > > > > I wasn't sure about this. Since manisikara is one of > > the seven universals (sabbacittasadharana) that arises > > with every citta it is of the four jatis of akusala, > > kusala, vipaka and kiriya. We are taking about only > > the jati of kusala and for this reason I thought they > > might call any kusala manisikara - yoniso. I saw the > > folowing in the atthasalini (I Part ii chapter 1 63) > > taking about kusala "its proximate cause is wise > > attention" - asuming wise attention is yoniso > > manisikara (sorry no pali) this seems to support Kom's > > idea that all kusala maisikara is yoniso. Of course if > > this were true the yoniso manisikara of samattha, > > vipassana and kusal without panna would all be > > different but still possibly classified under yoniso. > > I have never given any of this much thought before - I > > may be completely wrong. > > Robert > >Thanks for the analysis, it sounds like solid reasoning. Perhaps >here she was talking about the person's wrong practice? I will ask >her if you wish, > >Amara > 1172 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 6:31am Subject: Nina Van Gorkom's letters Dear Amara, Pinna and Alan, the latest from Nina VG on her letters (just came in while i was sending the last message!): "I sorted out all (my) letters, two were beyond copying, (it was) a lot of work. I (will bring all (the) copies to Thailand, but where is Pinna living now? I do appreciate her offer very much. She has such a good judgement, everything is in the best hands. She can also revise if she likes, I have no time. Survey (of Paramatha Dhammas) is a lot of work. I gave Amara Alan's booklets, where he printed some letters (Perfections, Holland Letters etc). Now I would like to know whether Amara can use these, or do I still have to copy those articles also? There are also my revised Vipassana Letters on Alan's (website). My feeling is that she has enough. I am not sure she needs all those letters. I cannot contact her by fax. Thailand is very difficult! Robert sent me some of your group's discussions. Very useful, how nice so many people and groups are reached...." Pinna, you may like to contact Nina directly to follow up...let me know if you need her fax no (off list perhaps). My own feeling is that it would be good to have ALL Nina's writings, inc. all her old letters, in print form on either Amara's or Alan's websites, so that anyone can have access. Amara & Alan, I think you need to liaise together about this (off list, perhaps). Regards, Sarah Robert, thanks for sending discussion messages to Nina. I did so at the very beginning, but it's gone from strength to strength since then! 1173 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 11:04pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Actually i wrote this before i saw KS's reply...so often it depends on the > context..I u'stand it arises with all kusala cittas but may be used > specifically to refer to panna. Dear Sarah, Actually manasikara and panna are two different cetasika but since all kusala citta are accompanied by yoniso manasikara, panna and nana and all the jhana and maggacitta would be accompanied by different degrees of this cetasika, I think. > On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about the 4 kinds. Specifically > I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, sapaya sampajanna..knowing > what is suitable. I used to think in terms of 'situation' such as a quiet > place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise reflection etc or that given > my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke bars are definitely not > conducive for the development of any kusala on my part! However, now I > realize that what is suitable is referring to the present > realities...but...? I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations and level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the streets. The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where he was. The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his level also. The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern streets? But now that I think about it, how would one know if it hasn't happened? That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied, therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right understanding. Does this make any sense? Amara By the way the word sapaya is the origin of the word sabaii in Thai, which means comfortable, at ease, happy. (and the slang for 'that's easy!') 1174 From: amara chay Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 11:18pm Subject: Re: Nina Van Gorkom's letters My feeling is that she has enough. I am not sure she > needs all those letters. I cannot contact her by fax. Thailand is very > difficult! Dear Sarah, I would rather she be the judge about this, we would be very happy to have more of her works in DS, but we can all read them on Alan's site very well, there is also a convenient link from DS to his. Perhaps when Alan puts something new in his site he could also announce it in DS, so we could all find it, just a note here on the list will be fine, I will add it to the update page on DS also. I still wish Nina were on line so she could help us on this list too, Amara 1175 From: A T Date: Sun Oct 15, 2000 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Dear Alex, >I was thinking the same thing - about the list been >quiet. It has been a month to remember - so many >excellent posts. Hard work for all of us; reading, >considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition >kusala citta? Dear Robert, It has been a lot of studying for me too. It's wonderful. >I have hardly had time to glance at a >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about >paramattha dhammas. =^_^= I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet. The conditions are not yet there. =^_^= Seriously, I think that you are a wonderful dhamma teacher. Thank you for your knowledge and your sharing spirit. >Say what you will about the >internet - but it has its uses. Yes, I agree. Last Friday, I thought the same thing, too. Have a good weekend. Metta, Alex Tran 1176 From: m. nease Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Kamma (was: Accumulations) --- protectID wrote: > I hope this helps explain the different > contexts in > which the terms are found. Definitely, thanks again. Mainly, for the present, I think I need to study up on cetasika. My reading is piling up and I'm still at the beginning. A long way to go yet (and I'm enjoying it immensely). Anumodana, mn 1177 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke --- > > On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about > the 4 kinds. Specifically > I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, > sapaya sampajanna..knowing > what is suitable. I used to think in terms of > 'situation' such as a quiet > place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise > reflection etc or that given > my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke > bars are definitely not > conducive for the development of any kusala on my > part! However, now I > realize that what is suitable is referring to the > present > realities...but Dear sarah, A very, very, useful question. How we understand this will have real bearing on our daily life and practice. In fact the second type of sampajanna may well, at times, be of the sort of thinking that says "No, a karaoke is not suitable for me -I would be better staying home and reading a Dhamma book". When I wrote about how satipatthana can arise in a karaoke this was referring to the 4th type of sampajanna- that of amoha, non-delusion. This is the type of sampajanna that specificially applies to satipatthana and can arise anywhere. However, we misunderstand (and ignore the other types) if we think this means "great I can live a life of hedonism and debauchery - it doesn't matter because sati can arise at any time". The middle path is deep - we have to examine so many aspects of Dhamma. I think it is a good topic for further discussion. Robert 1178 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Leonardo, > >Dear Sarah, > >Sorry for my late comments ... I'm also slow, very slow....anyone can pick up any point from even the earliest archives, it doesn't matter....we can't all be as quick as Robert, Alex & Amara! > > In my mail answering Robert`s remarks, I`ve posted: > > "I can be wrong but I think we have different understandings of >what sila >means. I don't think sila as an external practice, it is not aimed do give >us some >better position in samsara or to elude ourselves with "an ego-game to be >ever better >then ever". Sila runs hand to hand with panna. How ? The more we abandon >our strong >unwholesome tendencies through, for example, practising the second precept >or >practicing dana, the more our self identity loses its force. And this is >panna itself >isn`t it ? > I think some people practice sila to acumulate things but the >real sila is >conected with panna and it is for the sake of remove the many sheets of our >big ego - >this facilitates not only the intelectual understanding but also seeing >annata". > I didn`t understand Bhikkhu Bodhi`s emphasis in first >undertaking sila >and then go ahead on panna for every people. Otherwise, for a great number >of people >it would be like this. Only to keep the precepts as external is somehow >silly, but >this stage should be undertaken because for people without grasping the >more profound >Dhamma it is a Dhamma 'practice' in itself. There should be a very initial >mundane >panna to keep the precepts - even for someone who practices them out of >fear to >rebirth in an unfortunate realm ! > We have to bear in mind that perhaps Bodhi`s articles don`t >address to >Roberts, Sarahs, Jonothans, Amaras, Alexs :-) ... but for a different kind >of people. >You have to use different approach to comunicate to people with different >degree of >understanding. Some teachers say that understanding paramattha dhammas is fine for a few but for most they need some other way, some other method first, then they can begin the understanding. This sounds like saying if route A seems pretty difficult, start along route B and hope you'll fin yourself on route A later. We would say, if route A is the right route, start on route A from the beginning, no matter how difficult and slow it is. The path has to start with right understanding. This doesn't mean don't encourage oneself and others to give, to show metta, to obstain from breaking precepts, even to read a dhamma book instead of going off to karoke for the night! The point is though,that firstly without real understanding and confidence in kusala, how well will we and others follow the advice and secondly, what are the cittas while seeming to follow the advice? If you'll excuse a diversion, when I first knew Khun Sujin, her sister used to regularly visit with food and other presents (lots of generosity), but she'd swat mosquitoes whenever she noticed them. I'd try to encourage her to abstain from this habit to little avail. She really couldn't see the harm in it even though she knew that as a Buddhist she shouldn't do this. Later she started listening to her sister teach dhamma and on one visit told me that she was no longer killing insects and they'd stopped bothering her so much. Someone else might 'naturally' abstain from killing but not be generous at all. By 'naturally' I mean needing little instruction and doing what comes easily to one (in this case kusala). When we first went on the internet, it wasn't 'natural' for us to read a lot of dhamma here and now it is! I also don't agree that by practising generosity or abstaining regularly from killing, for example, we willlose our 'self identity'. It's true that at any moment of kusala, there is no clinging to self and at these moments we have the other's welfare at heart. it's good and to be encouraged. However, the wrong view of self and self identity is so deep-rooted and tenacious that only right understanding of realites has any effect on reducing its tencacity. I totally agree with you that very few of us are able (even for a few moments!) to appreciate the value of the abhidhamma and particularly the truth about anatta. I also agree that it's very useful to encourage everyone to have more kusala at any level. Other religions also encourage dana and sila as we know. We have to learn what is appropriate for our audience. With the children I teach, I often teach them to share and be considerate. I seldom mention realities! > > You`ve wrote: > > > He suggests the level of understanding will be limited > > by the level of sila established too. > > For me these two are very much connected. Perhaps here the >word >'understand' has different meanings for us - Sila, as I see, is connected >with the >word 'wise' and not necessarily with the word 'understand'. We can >understand >theoretically many teachings but what is really a wise person ? - Please, >here I'm >not trying to say that we should meditate more than study ! > > Sarah and friends, what is a wise person ? What caracterize >the four >stages of sainthood ? > > Bhikkhu Bodhi is stressing the real value of sila in >cleansing the >'house'. Why would he did that ? (english is correct ?) I think it fits >with a >particular kind of people from west, usually with a great amount of >aversion on the >religious aspects. It seems to someone that Buddhism is best considered a >mental >science, a philosophy and NOT a religion. Because of our conditional view >of religion >with dogmas and obligations, we tend "only to meditate, to study and put in >the >garbage all these silly exterior religious matter - let it for the use of >the less >inteligent people". Sarah, unfortunately this was the way I' ve begun my >'Dhamma >practice' . So, BB's articles are very compassionate in the way they try to >shed >light in this important matter. > A wise person has to be one who has developed wisdom or panna and the stages of sainthood are the higher stages of highly developed panna. These people may be very 'unwise' in a conventional sense and their wisdom may not be recognised or appreciated at all. Leonardo, I may not fully understand all your comments. With this great emphasis on developing understanding, I don't mean to suggest, don't follow other skillful actions. Like Robert said, knowing sati can arise in a karaoke bar, doesn't mean going there is good! It depends on one's accumulations. If one lives in Sri lanka and is inclined on Full Moon day to dress in white, go to the temple and follow the 8 precepts for a day, I'd encourage it. It may be (but not necessarily so) a condition for a lot of wise reflection. In the same way, I'd always encourage a child or friend to abstain from breaking the other precepts as they arise in daily life. Without any considering and developing of understanding of realities, it won't however directly lead to more right understanding of the eightfold path arising in the future. It can be support condition though. I think there will be some 'choices' - not personal >choices, in ultimate sense.There is 'choices' to study the Dhamma, >'choices' to >participate in this wonderful list, 'choices' to practice the precepts, >etc.. Perhaps >the word zeal (chanda) is more technical to express what I want to mean. >Chanda is >not the same as lobha as we can read in chapter 12 - NVG's - Cetacikas: > > " ... Whenever we perform kusala, the kusala citta is >accompained by >chanda wich is zeal for kusala, wich desires to act in the wholesome >way..... If >there were no wholesome zeal, ' wish to act', we could not perform such >acts of mettă >and karuna ... > It seems like we have choices, but do we really? We may decide to abstain from swatting the mosquito and then swat it anyway. Of course there can be chanda, there can be kusala cetana (good intention) and many other useful cetasikas (mental factors). These arise for a moment only and are then (usually) followed by many not so useful ones. So, yes, let's learn to distinguish them better, understand them more as I can see you're doing with your studies and appreciate the value of those moments of abstaining from harm or the moments of sense door restraint Robert has been talking about. They're very precious and can arise whenever there are opportunities to do harm (kill, lie etc) or in terms of the sense restraint whenever we open our eyes, hear or experience objects through the other doorways. > But Sarah I also can see what you are trying to teach me - >there is >dangers also ... So, if we continue, we can read in the same chapter: > > "...How do we know when chanda is kusala or akusala ? For >instance, when >we have desire for sati, is this kusala chanda or attachment ? We have >accumulated a >great deal of attachment and thus there is likely to be more often >attchment than >kusala chanda. We are attached to a concept of sati [as if these words were >Robert`s >! ] and we believe that we can cause its arising. Wanting to have sati is >different >the moment sati arises [ great ! ] ... When sati arises it is accompanied >by kusala >chanda wich performs its functions .... good reminders! > > > What do you mean with 'naturally' ? Every situation is due to >conditions. What were the conditions to they can have good accumulations of >sila ? > > > However if there is no understanding and a teacher they > > respect discourages such behaviour as in the example below, they may >change > > this good behaviour. > > This is the case where there are a silly student and a also a >deluded >teacher ... I think it can be more subtle...give this way and not that, give to the monks but not to the beggars....sometimes there many be wrong understanding of metta taught for example... > > > 3. If there is no understanding developed there will be no reason for >the > > wholesome tendencies to grow. > > I think we are stressing the same point. There is only a mature >sila when >understanding is present. But for me, there isn`t a wise man only if there >is >understanding without sila, both internal and external as Bhikkhu Bodhi >stresses. The more understanding develops, the more sila will develop for sure, the more the ugliness of all kinds of kusala will become apparent and the danger of not developing more understanding and other kinds of kusala. I might stress here that for the most part I agree with BB's excellent writings and really appreciate his wonderful translation work. I believe it's healthy to question the content of whatever anyone writes and this is one of the functions of this list that is working very well! I'm planning to send a note to BB soon to invite him or any of his students or colleagues to join or 'drop in' here. He joined some of the seminars with Khun Sujin in Sri Lanka and we all appreciate any discussions with him. He will not be expecting us to agree with everything he writes! > > Sometimes, the outer behavior conditions the inner one, >particularly in >the very start of the path - like as we were as educated children in our >first yoars >in school. good point...but more as condition for the same tendency. Before the Buddha's time there was lots of development of sila, dana, samatha but still no conditions for the development of vipassana without hearing the Buddha's teachings. (see Robert's more recent post) > > Sarah, for me sila is very much concerned with its volitional >aspect. In >thinking in this direction, I guess I'm focusing on the many moments of >sila and >non-sila, the former is more frequent than the second, but both of them are >anatta >and anicca. So it shows that you're developing your understanding or I should say it's developing itself.... as a result of reading, considering and hearing about realities rather than just from your many good acts of generosity I suspect! > > > > Yes, but who knows they didn`t have sila accumulations in the >past. I >guess if someone is fortunate enough to share an existence with a Buddha, >there will >be a extremely strong wholesome accumulations on his/her past - both sila >and >understanding accumulations ! > o.k. but when you're arguing for the sila as foundation 1st, aren't you saying that sila has to be developed in this life before understanding can develop or are you now saying, well as long as it was developed in a previous life, never mind if it's pretty wobbly now?! > But not because only a sotapanna can keep rightly the precepts, ' >we' >wouldn't try to make some effort in the right direction. Understanding the >necessity >of practising sila is also Right View and it drives our usual deluded and >poluted >mind to a right course of action - both internal (volitional) and external >(acting in >the world). If we will wait until we become a sotapanna do practice sila, i >guess it >will never come to life. Sila, as I understand, is a condition for >sotapanna >attainment. Am I wrong here ? > well, actually it's not a question of keeping the precepts now or of waiting til we become a sotapanna... firstly, as we know, there's no self to direct the views and intentions and timing of sila secondly, the more we hear and consider the value of the precepts, the dangers and ugly nature of the akusala cittas and cetanas when they are not kept, the more inclined are we to be reminded and to abstain from killing, stealing etc without some special effort. In other words, understanding knows more about the realities, understands the difference between kusala and akusala moments and is bent on developing more wholesomeoness of all lkinds in our lives. thirdly, iw we do swat the mosquito or tell a lie, what should we do? The answer is that understanding can know it's anatta...there are bound to be many, many moments of akusala cetana in a day and as Alex reminded us in an earlier post, regret is so useless... understanding and the development of kusala have to develop very slowly. Everyone has different accumulations and 'weaknesses'....some of us may be distracted by the pretty girls (!), others like me, by speaking harshly at times etc etc...We don't need to change anything and in fact WE can't....just develop understanding slowly and patiently! > > See again Bodhi's differentiation on internal x external >behavior and its >implicit relation with correct understanding. Thank you, yes. I no longer have the article in front of me, but will look at this part again. I also liked Robert's recent post about the monk that looks so calm and clean and pleasant but who may be developing lots of lobha. I also remember (sorry, forget the name) the arahat who was scorned because of the way he walks...we really only know for ourselves what the citta is (and seldom only!) > >Thank you very much Sarah, > > Ps: This wonderful group is certainly 'my ticket' to somehow one >day I could >"know and see" > >Metta, >Leonardo > Leonardo, I must say you and the other 'new recruits' are a real joy to correspond with and a condition for a lot of useful reflection on my part....I hope I don't sound like i know all the answers, because i certainly don't. Mike made a comment about having been lost or off track for a long time and now finding some good sign posts. I've had good sign posts for many, many years but have still managed to spend plenty of time wandering around getting lost, getting burnt by the midday sun, forgetting the important ingredients for the picnic, leaving the compass at home, being bitten by all the insects around. The tendencies for lobha, dosa, moha and wrong view are so strong that it's not easy, even with the best sign posts... Yr w'end will be starting as ours finishes...hope it's a good one with lots of wise reflection! Sorry, this is so long..hope there's something useful. At least Alex won't be bored tonight! Sarah> > 1180 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 0:57pm Subject: Maggha citta Dear Friends, We (the bay area studying group) had a discussion today about a Thai Dhamma book (Manual for Studying Abhidhamma, Parichet I, Citta Poramattha), and we came up with a question that wasn't quite satisfactorily answered, so I am wondering if anyone could clarify. The book mentioned that Maggha Citta (not with Jhana citta) may arise with either Somanassa Vedana or Upecha Vedana, corresponding directly to the vedana arising with the maha-kusala citta that precedes it. For example, if maha-kusala citta preceding it arises with Somanassa, the Maggha citta also arises with Somanassa. The book then proceeds to say that even when the Maggha citta can be classified as either as being ajhana, or jhana. If it is classified as jhana, then it is in the same category as the meggha citta following the first rupa jhana citta. However, the Maggha citta that follows the first rupa jhana citta will certainly have Somanassa vedana and piti as jhana factors, whereas Maggha citta following the maha-kusala citta with Upecha will have Upecha as vedana, and will have no piti as a factor. How do you reconcile these two seemingly inconsistent statements? kom 1181 From: protectID Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 2:22pm Subject: Accumulations-continued Dear Friends, This is another question resulting from studying the book mentioned in the previous message, Manual for Studying Abhidhamma. The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot "normally" be detected by anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???). We know that Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated. Now, this begs the question, how and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated? Since Anusaya kilesa is not detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own characteristics? Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of Accumulations (kamma accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.) As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong), all the accumulations are carried on in citta. All the cittas and cetasikas in the past all contribute to the characteristic of the citta in the present. As Khun Amara has mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are alike because of the different accumulations. In fact, the cittas of the same being are in fact different from one moment to another as the previous citta conditions the next citta and one of the condition is to pass along all the accumulations (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are different from one moment to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas perspectivies). Yet this accumulation is not detectable even by satipatthana: it may have its own characteristic, but is too refined to be detected. However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any moment, although all the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along with a citta, they "are there" in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the conditions are ripe, and passing on the accumulations to the next citta. This is the first time I have heard of this explanation, and am in need of further explanations, and pointers to the text sources related to this area. Although I understand roughly about what gets accumulated, 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does the accumulation, 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause (and what are the characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cuase) 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such accumulation. kom 1182 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, Actually when I first read your post about sattipathana in a karaoke, I thought to myself about duality being present only in the mind, and that there was infact only 'one boat' and 'one rower'.And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in a meditation retreat, I thought,"and now what?"After realizing this, perhaps now it would be easier to have sati in a meditation retreat. For a moment it looked like that there was a tendency to put the 'meditation retreat' and the act of 'formal sitting' into 'forbidden territory', but that did not happen. It was only an attempt to show some of us that paramathadhamma was the only 'worthy' object of consideration, and since this is present everywhere in every thing, it would be missing the point to look for it in any particular place. It is better to visit the karaoke with sammaditthi(more or less)than to sit down to meditate with wrong view. But as I wrote to you earlier, I am open to both, 'formal sitting' as well as 'consideration of paramatthadhammas', I do not see it as being opposed to one another,I am not putting one foot in one boat, and the other in another.There is only one boat and one rower. In following the path of buddhadhamma, there are moments in which one may consider the nama & rupa of that moment, but at other times I think many of us are satisfied with following 'unconsidered' cettasikas and yet feel at the end of the day, that we are on the 'right track'.And all this is in fact only very little compared the larger part of our day,(at least for me) when more gross manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate karaoke bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa causes this body to move away before it can come into contact with objects which would have aroused lobha). My view of the sapaya sampajanna hence, is like the act of walking the tight-rope: Fall off, get on again. Either end of the balancing pole swaying in big arcs, gradually getting smaller and smaller with practise, and even then, may fall again.Or because long time no practice, may need to start from the basic. Is anything in my control? No. Is there any point in making any special effort in doing, or going to a place to create conditions which my desperate state envisage? I don't think so. What is sapaya then, I often feel very fortunate to have found this group and to have met Acharn Sujin, but even this is fleeting. Any benifit I gain from this group is not entirely up to me. Am I clear? I don't know. Expressing myself anyway. Anumodana, Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > --- > > > On sampajannas, I would like to u'stand more about > > the 4 kinds. Specifically > > I often reflect on the meaning of the 2nd one, > > sapaya sampajanna..knowing > > what is suitable. I used to think in terms of > > 'situation' such as a quiet > > place with dhamma books is 'suitable' for wise > > reflection etc or that given > > my strong aversion to noise and singing, karaoke > > bars are definitely not > > conducive for the development of any kusala on my > > part! However, now I > > realize that what is suitable is referring to the > > present > > realities...but > > Dear sarah, > A very, very, useful question. How we understand this > will have real bearing on our daily life and practice. > In fact the second type of sampajanna may well, at > times, be of the sort of thinking that says "No, a > karaoke is not suitable for me -I would be better > staying home and reading a Dhamma book". When I wrote > about how satipatthana can arise in a karaoke this was > referring to the 4th type of sampajanna- that of > amoha, non-delusion. This is the type of sampajanna > that specificially applies to satipatthana and can > arise anywhere. > However, we misunderstand (and ignore the other types) > if we think this means "great I can live a life of > hedonism and debauchery - it doesn't matter because > sati can arise at any time". The middle path is deep - > we have to examine so many aspects of Dhamma. > I think it is a good topic for further discussion. > Robert > 1183 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 6:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin, What is "formal sitting"? how do you do it? what do you observe? what happens? Robert It was only an > attempt to show > some of us that paramathadhamma was the only > 'worthy' object > of consideration, and since this is present > everywhere in every thing, > it would be missing the point to look for it in any > particular place. > It is better to visit the karaoke with > sammaditthi(more or less)than > to sit down to meditate with wrong view. > But as I wrote to you earlier, I am open to both, > 'formal sitting' as > well as 'consideration of paramatthadhammas', I do > not see it as > being opposed to one another,I am not putting one > foot in one boat, > and the other in another.There is only one boat and > one rower. 1184 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu Dear Jonathan, Thank you for reminding me of that question again. Having been away on holiday in France, I was not able to ask Achaan that question. But will do so this Saturday and let you know the answer via the group. With metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 protectID ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Fw: Nama-dhatu > Betty > > Have you had a chance to follow-up on this question? I would be interestd > to hear more. Does the answer have to do with nibbana being experienced > only as the object of citta, whereas other namas can appear as object of > citta or can themselves be the citta/cetasika that experiences an object? > > Jonothan > > > > > though Nibbana is a nama Paramatha Dhamma, it does not > > > have cittas and cetasikas, conditioned realities, arising during it. > > > However, Achaan did say that Panna arises at/after (?) attaining > >Nibbana. > > > So, I need to ask her to clarify that for me next week. For, how can > >panna > > > arise AFTER Nibbana is reached/attained, if panna IS a conditioned > >cetasika? > > 1185 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, First I want to point out that, since I joined this group my sitting schedule has been more relaxed, meaning I don't force myself to do it as much as I used to. It has become more an activity I undertake not only because it calms me down but also because at that time I have nothing better to do. However since I do it anyway in opposition to any other possible act, it still is a deliberate action. And also what I do while I sit is watch the vedana, or the breath or get lost(which happens most of the time), but I also note, if it happens, the paramatthadhammas. The major view I do not hold on to with regard to the activity, is that 'it will get me somewhere' in the distant future. But the "I" still persists with a change of objective you might say. To this I must admit that this to me is an easier way to have some calm than consideration of paramatthadhammas, eventhough on a couple of occasions there have been more calm by means of consideration of realities. Yet I speak as though it were an integral part of my dhamma practice, to this I'll have to say that my knowledge of abhidhamma and its application is not strong enough to overturn the practical effect that 'meditation' practise has had on me so far. Besides, the intellect may be convinced, but do I need to listen to any other aspect of my being? Please clear up my muddled self some more. Thanks in advance. Sukin. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Sukin, > What is "formal sitting"? how do you do it? what do > you observe? what happens? > Robert > It was only an > > attempt to show > > some of us that paramathadhamma was the only > > 'worthy' object > > of consideration, and since this is present > > everywhere in every thing, > > it would be missing the point to look for it in any > > particular place. > > It is better to visit the karaoke with > > sammaditthi(more or less)than > > to sit down to meditate with wrong view. > > But as I wrote to you earlier, I am open to both, > > 'formal sitting' as > > well as 'consideration of paramatthadhammas', I do > > not see it as > > being opposed to one another,I am not putting one > > foot in one boat, > > and the other in another.There is only one boat and > > one rower. > 1186 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara Dear Amara, Yes, what I realise is that even tho' this thick Childers pali dict. which we seem to have inherited from Dhammadharo is probably the most extensive pali-Eng dict, still the content will depend on the abhid knowledge of the authors....it doesn't make sense, as you say, to talk about panna and yoniso manis being used interchangeably in the abhid when the abhid is so precise....I've learnt a lesson here! thanks, S.> > >Dear Sarah, > >Actually manasikara and panna are two different cetasika but since >all kusala citta are accompanied by yoniso manasikara, panna and >nana and all the jhana and maggacitta would be accompanied by >different degrees of this cetasika, I think. > 1187 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:34pm Subject: Re: Maggha citta Dear Kom, I just got off the phone with Tan Achaan, I had faxed her your question and you might have found some complicated stuff here since she said it's a long story and since my mother is having lunch with her on Wednesday, she would explain it then. I'll get back to you then, please be patient, Amara 1188 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina Van Gorkom's letters Dear Amara & Alan, Anyway, we can talk to Nina in Bkk...It's good she's happy for Pinna to revise & help (SLOWLY, Pinna!). We can also encourage her to go 'on line' then....but she's very busy with her books I know... I think it's great that you can put the letters on yr site and don't see 'too many' as an issue! Alan, a comment pls! Sarah > > >Dear Sarah, > >I would rather she be the judge about this, we would be very happy >to have more of her works in DS, but we can all read them on Alan's >site very well, there is also a convenient link from DS to his. >Perhaps when Alan puts something new in his site he could also >announce it in DS, so we could all find it, just a note here on the >list will be fine, I will add it to the update page on DS also. > >I still wish Nina were on line so she could help us on this list >too, > >Amara > 1189 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 0:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila as foundation Dear Sarah, Leonardo, and friends, >Everyone has different accumulations and >'weaknesses'....some of us may be distracted by the pretty girls (!), At least this distraction has some sense of beauty in it. :-))) >others >like me, by speaking harshly at times etc etc... This is my weak point, too. I think that by studying Dhamma seriously, when dosa starting to show up, I could see that the conditions of dosa are there. Therefore, it somehow gets reduced to a much less degree. >I also liked Robert's recent post about the monk that >looks so calm and clean and pleasant but who may be developing lots of >lobha. This post of Robert surprises me very much at first. I could see well some crooks pretend to be good, but with someone walking on the Path! What Robert said makes a lot of sense. >I also remember (sorry, forget the name) the arahat who was scorned >because of the way he walks... Was he Sariputta? He had the habit of jumping across the water because in one of his previous life time, he had been born as a monkey. >we really only know for ourselves what the >citta is (and seldom only!) How true! > > Ps: This wonderful group is certainly 'my ticket' to somehow >one > >day I could > >"know and see" I agree with you, Leonardo. Thank you for being here. I've learned a lot in the last few weeks. >Sorry, this is so long..hope there's something useful. >At least Alex won't be bored tonight! Dear Sarah, thank you for thinking of me. Recently, with so much of learning from this group, I realize that I have to study the books, and Abhidhamma carefully, so that I can understand what we're discussing about in the list. If only we have more than 24 hours per day! Thank you, Sarah, for a good post. Metta, AT 1190 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 9:49pm Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued > The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot "normally" be detected > by > anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???). We know that > Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated. Now, this begs the question, how > and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated? Dear Khun Kom, Let us go back to the fact that all dhamma in the world or outside it would have to be one of the four paramatthadhamma, namely citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Rupa and nibbana aside, the 'intelligence or the dhatu that knows and experiences' in other words the nama, can be classified as citta or cetasika. The citta is the principle faculty of experience, from the most minute details in human sight to the deepest thoughts, from mixed aromas to the tiniest vibrations. The cetasika do all the other functions: like or dislike, remember, study. Citta and cetasika must always arise together, inseparably. The citta is a constant, its characteristic of all experiencing is the same no matter the kind of cetasika accompanies it, which is why, when one studies the ayatana it is considered the inner one, and the cetasika the outer. But in most places although both elements are without shape and form of any kind, the cetasika is refered to as 'born in the citta', which is to say again it never arises with anything else, ever. If it were to have some sort of shape, however, one might think of a big pot with the 52 cetasika like 'sediment' at the bottom until some condition makes some rise up in a bubble, big or small, when the pot boils or cools. Say we have gas pellets of different kinds and colors and they react differently to just water, cold or hot, others that react to heat, and still others that react to the cold , so different sets will combine to make different bubbles. Some of the 52 cetasika that accompanies the citta will accompany all citta, some cannot arise together in the same citta, because they are opposed (lobha and dosa for example) always when it is hot or cold some will remain inactive since they only react to one or the other, never to both. Whatever rises to the surface can be detected, while the rest lie 'dormant' until the conditions are right for them to rise too. (This is my very own invention and my responsibility if anyone gets even more confused- but the word 'sediment' in the quotation about the anusaya kilesa gave me the idea.) My point is that the citta holds the 'seeds' of all 52 cetasika and when there are conditions, certain sets would arise and do their duty while others settle like 'sediment' at the bottom, and when the citta falls away and conditions the next citta to arise, with all the accumulations of the past, in the different combinations as well as the strengths and weaknesses of the cetasika passed on. Of course not all cetasika are anusaya or even kilesa, some are just operational, such as passa or jivitindriya and arise with all citta, even when all kilesa has been eradicated, as in the arahanta. For example as we said elsewhere for the vipaka and its condition, the computer is composed of 1 and 0 in eight positions, and the possibility of these two numbers in only eight positions yeilds over 10 million posibilities. Just think of the possible combinations of the 52 cetasika in at least 7 positions, each with different strength (since the 7 annasamana arise for all). Indeed we might say that the citta is the most powerful computer in the world, nothing is ever lost, they just wait their turn when the right conditions come. The only exception of course is when panna is strong enough to end it all. If you understood what I tried to explain, could you please try to answer your own questions below? >Since Anusaya kilesa is not > detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own characteristics? > Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of Accumulations > (kamma > accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.) > > As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong), all the > accumulations are > carried on in citta. All the cittas and cetasikas in the past all > contribute to > the characteristic of the citta in the present. As Khun Amara has > mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are alike because of the > different accumulations. In fact, the cittas of the same being are > in fact > different from one moment to another as the previous citta conditions > the > next citta and one of the condition is to pass along all the > accumulations > (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are different from one > moment > to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas perspectivies). Yet > this > accumulation is not detectable even by satipatthana: it may have its > own > characteristic, but is too refined to be detected. > > However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any moment, although > all > the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along with a citta, they > "are there" > in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the conditions are ripe, > and > passing on the accumulations to the next citta. This is the first > time I > have heard of this explanation, and am in need of further > explanations, > and pointers to the text sources related to this area. > > Although I understand roughly about what gets accumulated, > 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does the accumulation, > 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic, function, > manifestation, > and proximate cause (and what are the characteristic, function, > manifestation, and proximate cuase) > 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such accumulation. > > kom 1191 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 10:12pm Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued Dear Khun Kom and friends, My usual corrigenda- sorry to have confused you even further, in the last post I said >Just think of the possible combinations of the 52 cetasika in at >least 7 positions, each with different strength (since the 7 >annasamana arise for all). when it should have been the 7 sappacittasataranacetasika of the 13 annasamana, Then the akusala citta would have the 13 + the akusalas And the kusala 13+???? (how many, Shin, do you remember?) Any way I am sure Khun Kom has no problems with the precise numbers! Amara 1192 From: amara chay Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 10:22pm Subject: Re: Sampajanna & Yoniso manasikara > Yes, what I realise is that even tho' this thick Childers pali dict. which > we seem to have inherited from Dhammadharo is probably the most extensive > pali-Eng dict, still the content will depend on the abhid knowledge of the > authors....it doesn't make sense, as you say, to talk about panna and yoniso > manis being used interchangeably in the abhid when the abhid is so > precise....I've learnt a lesson here! > thanks, S.> Dear Sarah, That's what Khun Sujin has been saying all along, about translations in the traditional way, some may have perfect knowledge of the language and some the dhamma, but there are few like Khun Sujin so I think we should alway try to make the most we can of her teachings! Amara 1193 From: A T Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 10:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin, >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in >a meditation retreat, I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can rise anywhere since it's uncontrollable. Therefore, I went to archive to check what I said. What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer Robert's question: >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance >of sila. >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana >arise in a karaoke? > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? >see you tommorow >Robert > My answer: With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is very strong at that moment. With Metta, Alex 1194 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Oct 16, 2000 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear sukin, I find as the years go by that the sort of dilemmas you bring up seem not so bothersome to me (I don't mean as questions, I mean personally) as they once were. In fact whole days do go past, even weeks, where little panna or sati or reflection arises. I don’t mind this; I think because Dhamma seems so inseparable from life that even periods without kusala teach me something. Something about accumulations and anattaness and akusala. This is hard to explain. Do you still think that 'we' are on the path or trying to find it? Do you think 'we' will live for a short time or long time and then die? Samasara vata -(called the round of birth and deaths) is deeper than that. The real samsara is concealed by avijja (ignorance). The paticcasamupada is only khandas arising and passing away - it is simply dukkha- but we can't see it because avijja always darts among things that are not real such as people, cars, money, and can't penetrate things that are real such as colour, sound, citta, cetasika. When we die it will all carry on just like now. Each moment, right now, is a new life - every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional death happens it will be just like this. Without even a split second gap the new life will occur and the same processes- vitthi cittas and so on will occur. This arising and passing of khandas has been going on since ....no beginning. Can we expect to quickly stop it or even to understand how to stop it? Patience is needed and patience develops by understanding this moment; that there is only this moment, that it is only paramattha dhamma, no self.Then samasara loses some of its sting because very slowly an inkling of what it is all about grows- and with that comes sadda, confidence. Namas and rupas are gone even before we think about them. What, truly, is there to cling to? It is only because we don't see that we try to hold on. It often happens that when people learn about anatta and Abhidhamma they feel that it is so right but then not so long after a dilemma sets in. "If everything is anatta what can be done?" Before, they had practices such as watching the breath or concentrating on subtle rupas in the body. They walked, perhaps, slowly with great concentration, or tried to always stay in the present moment. Now, they wonder, if understanding is not some technique, just what should I do? When I first met Sujin I thought I would continue to meditate; and at the same time develop understanding of paramattha dhammas in daily life; and also study. I thought this three-pronged approach, taking the best of everything, had to be the way. You could try this: in fact I think you are trying this. What happened with me is the more that I saw dhammas in everyday life the less I could see the point of sitting in one spot not moving with my eyes closed. I found out that that by and large there were other things I preferred to do and could better be doing; such as considering the Dhamma. Until recently, when I got busy with a career, I used to go off for a few days by myself and stay at a hut in the forest. But I would take some Dhamma books (usually something by NinaVG and an abhidhamma book) and contemplate them. Sometimes I guess I hardly moved for hours just considering dhamma – in the book and as they appear directly. Then I would walk in the forest for hours with the thought of Dhamma uppermost. But I wasn’t thinking of this as formal meditation – it just happened. The posture, time etc was not really considered; simply what was most convenient and comfortable. Life now seems to unfold in its own way. Sometimes career is uppermost in my mind; sometimes family; sometimes Dhamma; sometimes akusala; sometimes kusala. I think it must be like this for us all. When we try to resist nature, even in refined ways, we move away from the present moment. We all want to have a happy life; but if we do not understand Dhamma we do things that lead away from happiness. The first javanna citta in every mind-door process can give its results in this life. The others, except for the seventh, can give results in future lives even 100,000aeons from now (or more). I used to worry about making decisions; should I do this or do that, what will give the best advantage; and this whether to do with daily life or things to do with “my” Dhamma practice. I find I hardly worry about making decisions about almost anything now. Deep-down I know happiness only comes from kusala citta (past and present) and whether things go right or wrong is not dependent much on “my” decisions. Nonetheless maybe in the future this will change and I will worry more- defilements run deep- who knows what will come. . You wrote "this is in fact only very little compared the larger part of our day,(at least for me) when more gross manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate karaoke bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa causes this body to move away before it can come into contact with objects which would have aroused lobha)". Do you think “gross manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha” are worse than refined ones? I don’t. The strong ones taught me a lot and still do. They show me what I really am – a skinbag full of defilements. Moreover when they arise it is actually the latent tendencies showing themselves – they are not us, they are dhammas. Lobha is lobha whether in the Brahma realm or the animal world. Khun Sujin asked me last time I was in Bangkok that: if a Brahma god (who is in a different bhumi (plane) from us has lobha is the lobha of the kama loka (the bhumi we and animals etc are in) or the Brahma loka. It is simply lobha and it is of the kama loka – the same bhumi as us. I used to feel nervous (very) when flying but fear helped me learn about the characteristic of sati. We have fear because of clinging to self. Sati and sampajanna, of satipatthana, see dhammas as merely dhammas. How can there be fear with such understanding. When moments of sati come in between the moments of fear, or anger or lobha much can be learnt. It is like you said ” on a couple of occasions there have been more calm by means of consideration of realities.” . It is more than simply study Abhidhamma, listen to khun sujin, understand anatta and everything will be OK. I think some do have the idea that that is all it takes. However this path does need effort, lots of it; but effort so profound that only wisdom really knows what it is. All we can learn from others is the details of the Tipitika and then by discussion with the right people we can see some of our attachments to wrong view, to self, to wrong practice. Beyond that I think only panna that arises dependent on hearing, considering, direct study of dhammas, and past accumulations can distinguish what the way is. Don't take my word for it though - please comment more- if you or anyone can explain other ways I will certainly consider them. You wrote ".Or because long time no practice, may need to start from the basic." We need to start from the basic at every moment. Check to see whether you have desire to understand? can you see that desire will hinder understanding? Chanda is not desire and right effort is not desire but if desire is present there cannot be panna at the same time. You wrote "Is anything in my control? No. Is there any point in making any special effort in doing, or going to a place to create conditions which my desperate state envisage? I don't think so. What is sapaya then, I often feel very fortunate to have found this group and to have met Acharn Sujin, but even this is fleeting. Any benifit I gain from this group is not entirely up to me. Am I clear? I don't know. Expressing myself anyway." This is the way it has to go Sukin, for all of us. Sometimes confidence is strong, at other times not. Sometimes it feels like we have confidence but it is just attachment; at other times we feel like there is no progress but in refined ways understanding is growing. It is good to have doubts actually because these can spur us to understand more. It can be dangerous if we think we have it all sorted out. We can't so often have satipatthana - conditions don't work like that. Sometimes we need other aspects- I like to read the jatakas for example. Once the bodhisatta wanted to give to a paccekka-buddha . Mara wanted to hinder the giving so he opened up the earth down to avicci hell. The flames and stench came up between the PaccekkaBuddha and the bodhisatta. His wife and servants jumped back in fear and horror but the bodhisatta had such sadda, confidence, that he walked straight across the chasm. At that moment from out of the depths a lotus plant shot up and supported him so that he was able to give food to the paccekkabuddha. This was in the time when no teaching of anatta, of satipatthana, was available and yet he had such confidence in kusala. I asked someone in Bangkok if they would be happy to be confused and worried for twenty years if after that time they managed to have a little understanding. They said "no". This is the wrong answer. We have to be ready to walk across a world of sharp spears if that's what it takes to get to the bottom of it all. Every prick can teach something if is investigated in light of Dhamma. (Note: I am encouraging myself here) Robert 1195 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:09am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Alex, Sorry for the misunderstanding, it happens with me a lot. Metta, Sukin. --- "A T" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented > >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in > >a meditation retreat, > > I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can rise > anywhere since it's uncontrollable. Therefore, I went to archive to check > what I said. What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer Robert's > question: > > >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a > >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila) > >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance > >of sila. > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana > >arise in a karaoke? > > > >It is past my bedtime. Would anyone else care to give > >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin? > >see you tommorow > >Robert > > > > My answer: > > With sati and panna. And we should not be fooled by the look of a > karaoke attendant. He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his sati is > very strong at that moment. > > With Metta, > Alex > > 1196 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Sukin and Alex, I think it might have been Kom who was making the point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place such as a meditation center one might have wrong practice whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual" significance might not catch us in this same subtle way. On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I would repost this: A final point: none of what we have been saying about this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke (or worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or someone who lives life fully endowed with the five strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can develop in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find that karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest after sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I mean, not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a rather simple life (no details).But the only reply she gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that is "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can tell us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but by developing understanding our own unique accumulations are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself what is suitable (for us) and what is not. There was a joke on another list that made me laugh: The reporter asks the very successful businessman “how did you do it?” Businessman: two words: right decisions. Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions? Businessman: One word: experience. Reporter: how did you get experience? Businessman: two words: wrong decisions. Robert 1197 From: protectID=Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:29am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke --- "Sukinder Narula" wrote: > Dear Alex, > Sorry for the misunderstanding, it happens with me a lot. > Metta, > > Sukin. Dear Sukin, It's fine. I've done it many times, too. Thank you for the post. Like you, I get less and less formal when meditating. Metta, Alex 1198 From: protectID Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:36am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Sukin and Alex, > I think it might have been Kom who was making the > point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place such > as a meditation center one might have wrong practice > whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual" > significance might not catch us in this same subtle > way. > > On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I > would repost this: > A final point: none of what we have been saying about > this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke (or > worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our > own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead > one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or > someone who lives life fully endowed with the five > strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can develop > in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find that > karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest after > sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older, > or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I mean, > not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a > rather simple life (no details).But the only reply she > gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that is > "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can tell > us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but by > developing understanding our own unique accumulations > are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself > what is suitable (for us) and what is not. > > There was a joke on another list that made me laugh: > The reporter asks the very successful businessman "how > did you do it?" > Businessman: two words: right decisions. > Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions? > Businessman: One word: experience. > Reporter: how did you get experience? > Businessman: two words: wrong decisions. > Robert Dear Robert, I like the joke, too. I think that Khun Sujin is very wise. "Don't copy!". Thank you for reposting the above part. Metta, AT 1199 From: Sukinder Narula Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 0:46am Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke Dear Robert, Thanks for so patiently explaining to me in much detail how and where I could be stuck. Actually I am up at this time only because while lying in bed I thought I found the answer to my own statement in the last post, namely; "Besides, the intellect may be convinced,but do I need to listen to any other aspect of my being?" I thought "what is this 'other aspect of my being?'" I've got only this six sense doors,the workings of which is probably explained in the abhidhamma.The whole world is known through these sense doors.How else can I know the world? Am I right Robert? Thanks very much for showing me this; > We need to start from the basic at every moment. Check > to see whether you have desire to understand? can you > see that desire will hinder understanding? Chanda is > not desire and right effort is not desire but if > desire is present there cannot be panna at the same > time. And this; > Sometimes confidence is strong, at other times not. > Sometimes it feels like we have confidence but it is > just attachment; at other times we feel like there is > no progress but in refined ways understanding is > growing. It is good to have doubts actually because > these can spur us to understand more. It can be > dangerous if we think we have it all sorted out. And this, eventhough lobha would say otherwise; > I asked someone in Bangkok if they would be happy to > be confused and worried for twenty years if after that > time they managed to have a little understanding. They > said "no". This is the wrong answer. We have to be > ready to walk across a world of sharp spears if that's > what it takes to get to the bottom of it all. Every > prick can teach something if is investigated in light > of Dhamma. (Note: I am encouraging myself here) > Robert Thanks for everything again.I hope your patience manifests everytime I open my mouth.One thing I do see is that this bag of kilesa is ready to spill out anytime. Sukin.