1200 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:48am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations-continued

 
  Dear Amara,

So:  The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or
conditioned (in the same sense that the citta
are)--they become active dependent on the
accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this
right?

Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something
obvious.  This is all pretty new to me, and it helps
if I can simplify it a little.

I liked the citta/computer analogy.  There's also
something in it that reminds me of genetics, but I
can't quite put my finger on it.  


Thanks, C, for your excellent questions, Amara, for
your excellent answer.

mn 
    
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
> > The book mentioned that Anusaya kilesa cannot
> "normally" be detected
> > by 
> > anyone (except perhaps the samasam buddha???).  We
> know that 
> > Anusaya kilesa is also accumulated.  Now, this
> begs the question, 
> how 
> > and where is anusaya kilesa accumulated?  
> 
> 
> Dear Khun Kom,
> 
> Let us go back to the fact that all dhamma in the
> world or outside 
> it would have to be one of the four
> paramatthadhamma, namely citta, 
> cetasika, rupa and nibbana.  Rupa and nibbana aside,
> the
> 'intelligence or the dhatu that knows and
> experiences' in other 
> words the nama, can be classified as citta or
> cetasika.
> 
> The citta is the principle faculty of experience,
> from the most
> minute details in human sight to the deepest
> thoughts, from mixed 
> aromas to the tiniest vibrations.  The cetasika do
> all the other 
> functions: like or dislike, remember, study.  Citta
> and cetasika 
> must always arise together, inseparably.  The citta
> is a constant, 
> its characteristic of all experiencing is the same
> no matter the 
> kind of cetasika accompanies it, which is why, when
> one studies the 
> ayatana it is considered the inner one, and the
> cetasika the outer.  
> But in most places although both elements are
> without shape and form 
> of any kind, the cetasika is refered to as 'born in
> the citta', 
> which is to say again it never arises with anything
> else, ever.  
> 
> If it were to have some sort of shape, however, one
> might think of a 
> big pot with the 52 cetasika like 'sediment' at the
> bottom until 
> some condition makes some rise up in a bubble, big
> or small, when 
> the pot boils or cools.  Say we have gas pellets of
> different kinds 
> and colors and they react differently to just water,
> cold or hot, 
> others that react to heat, and still others that
> react to the cold , 
> so different sets will combine to make different
> bubbles.  Some of 
> the 52 cetasika that accompanies the citta will
> accompany all citta, 
> some cannot arise together in the same citta,
> because they are 
> opposed (lobha and dosa for example) always when it
> is hot or cold 
> some will remain inactive since they only react to
> one or the other, 
> never to both.  Whatever rises to the surface can be
> detected, while 
> the rest lie 'dormant' until the conditions are
> right for them to 
> rise too.  (This is my very own invention and my
> responsibility if 
> anyone gets even more confused- but the word
> 'sediment' in the 
> quotation about the anusaya kilesa gave me the
> idea.)
> 
> My point is that the citta holds the 'seeds' of all
> 52 cetasika and 
> when there are conditions, certain sets would arise
> and do their duty 
> while others settle like 'sediment' at the bottom,
> and when the citta 
> falls away and conditions the next citta to arise,
> with all the 
> accumulations of the past, in the different
> combinations as well as 
> the strengths and weaknesses of the cetasika passed
> on.  Of course
> not all cetasika are anusaya or even kilesa, some
> are just 
> operational, such as passa or jivitindriya and arise
> with all citta, 
> even when all kilesa has been eradicated, as in the
> arahanta.
> 
> For example as we said elsewhere for the vipaka and
> its condition,
> the computer is composed of 1 and 0 in eight
> positions, and the 
> possibility of these two numbers in only eight
> positions yeilds over 
> 10 million posibilities.  Just think of the possible
> combinations of 
> the 52 cetasika in at least 7 positions, each with
> different strength 
>  (since the 7 annasamana arise for all).  Indeed we
> might say that
> the citta is the most powerful computer in the
> world, nothing is ever 
> lost, they just wait their turn when the right
> conditions come.  The 
> only exception of course is when panna is strong
> enough to end it all.
> 
> If you understood what I tried to explain, could you
> please try to 
> answer your own questions below?
>  
> 
> 
> 
> >Since Anusaya kilesa is not 
> > detectable, is it a poramattha dhamma with its own
> characteristics? 
> > Besides Anusaya kilesa, what about other kinds of
> Accumulations
> > (kamma 
> > accumulation, vasana accumulation, etc.)
> > 
> > As far as I know (again, I am frequently wrong),
> all the
> > accumulations are 
> > carried on in citta.  All the cittas and cetasikas
> in the past all
> > contribute to 
> > the characteristic of the citta in the present. 
> As Khun Amara has 
> > mentioned, no two cittas of different beings are
> alike because of 
> the 
> > different accumulations.  In fact, the cittas of
> the same being are
> > in fact 
> > different from one moment to another as the
> previous citta 
> conditions
> > the 
> > next citta and one of the condition is to pass
> along all the
> > accumulations 
> > (and hence there can't be a self, as "you" are
> different from one
> > moment 
> > to another both from rupa, citta, and cetasikas
> perspectivies).  Yet
> > this 
> > accumulation is not detectable even by
> satipatthana: it may have its
> > own 
> > characteristic, but is too refined to be detected.
> > 
> > However, Khun Amara explained recently that at any
> moment, although
> > all 
> > the cetasikas do not "arise" to function along
> with a citta, they
> > "are there" 
> > in the "dormant" state awaiting to arise as the
> conditions are ripe,
> > and 
> > passing on the accumulations to the next citta. 
> This is the first
> > time I 
> > have heard of this explanation, and am in need of
> further
> > explanations, 
> > and pointers to the text sources related to this
> area.
> > 
> > Although I understand roughly about what gets
> accumulated, 
> > 1) I still don't know what poramattha dhamma does
> the accumulation, 
> > 2) if the accumulation has its own characteristic,
> function,
> > manifestation, 
> > and proximate cause (and what are the
> characteristic, function, 
> > manifestation, and proximate cuase)
> > 3) and if anyone except the buddha can detect such
> accumulation.
> > 
> > kom
> 
> 
=== message truncated ===


 
1201 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:07am
Subject: Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Sukin and Alex,

Alex, I think you might have got the 'credit' for my not-terribly 
skilful reply,

> ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer.  Because in the
> sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe...

Your answer was much better!

Thanks to you all for your patience.

mn

---  "A T" <protectID=243082114180158116015199190036129> wrote:
> Dear Sukin,
> 
> >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented
> >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in
> >a meditation retreat,
> 
>    I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can 
rise 
> anywhere since it's uncontrollable.  Therefore, I went to archive 
to check 
> what I said.  What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer 
Robert's 
> question:
> 
> >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a
> >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila)
> >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance
> >of sila.
> >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana
> >arise in a karaoke?
> >
> >It is past my bedtime.  Would anyone else care to give
> >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin?
> >see you tommorow
> >Robert
> >
> 
>    My answer:
> 
>    With sati and panna.  And we should not be fooled by the look of 
a
> karaoke attendant.  He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his 
sati is 
> very strong at that moment.
> 
> With Metta,
> Alex

 
1202 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:19am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Thanks, Robert,

Your posts remain both instructive and inspiring. 
Very.

mn

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> Dear sukin,
> I find as the years go by that the sort of dilemmas
> you bring up seem not so bothersome to me (I don't
> mean as questions, I mean personally) as they once
> were. In fact whole days do go past, even weeks,
> where
> little panna or sati or reflection arises.  I don’t
> mind this; I think because Dhamma seems so
> inseparable
> from life that even periods without kusala teach me
> something. Something about accumulations and
> anattaness and akusala. This is hard to explain. 
> 
> Do you still think that 'we' are on the path or
> trying
> to find it? Do you think 'we' will live for a short
> time or long time and then die? Samasara vata
> -(called
> the round of birth and deaths) is deeper than that.
> The real samsara is concealed by avijja (ignorance).
> The paticcasamupada is only khandas arising and
> passing away - it is simply dukkha- but we can't see
> it because avijja always darts among things that are
> not real such as people, cars, money, and can't
> penetrate things that are real such as colour,
> sound,
> citta, cetasika. When we die it will all carry on
> just
> like now.  Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> death happens it will be just like this. Without
> even
> a split second gap the new life will occur and the
> same processes- vitthi cittas and so on will occur.
> This arising and passing of khandas has been going
> on
> since ....no beginning.
>  Can we expect to quickly stop it or even to
> understand how to stop it? Patience is needed and
> patience develops by understanding this moment; that
> there is only this moment, that it is only
> paramattha
> dhamma, no self.Then samasara loses some of its
> sting
> because very slowly an inkling of what it is all
> about
> grows- and with that comes sadda, confidence.
> Namas and rupas are gone even before we think about
> them. What, truly, is there to cling to? It is only
> because we don't see that we try to hold on.
> 
> It often happens that when people learn about anatta
> and Abhidhamma they feel that it is so right but
> then
> not so long after a dilemma sets in. "If everything
> is
> anatta what can be done?" Before, they had practices
> such as watching the breath or concentrating on
> subtle
> rupas in the body. They walked, perhaps, slowly with
> great concentration, or tried to always stay in the
> present moment. Now, they wonder, if understanding
> is 
> not some technique, just what should I do? 
> When I first met Sujin I thought I would continue to
> meditate; and at the same time develop understanding
> of paramattha dhammas in daily life; and also study.
> I
> thought this three-pronged approach, taking the best
> of everything, had to be the way. You could try
> this:
> in fact I think you are trying this. What happened
> with me is the more that I saw dhammas in everyday
> life the less I could see the point of sitting in
> one
> spot not moving with my eyes closed. I found out
> that
> that by and large there were other things I
> preferred
> to do and could better be doing; such as considering
> the Dhamma.
>  Until recently, when I got busy with a career, I
> used
> to go off for a few days by myself and stay at a hut
> in the forest. But I would take some Dhamma books
> (usually something by NinaVG and an abhidhamma book)
> and contemplate them. Sometimes I guess I hardly
> moved
> for hours just considering dhamma – in the book and
> as
> they appear directly. Then I would walk in the
> forest
> for hours with the thought of Dhamma uppermost. But
> I
> wasn’t thinking of this as formal meditation – it
> just
> happened. The posture, time etc was not really
> considered; simply what was most convenient and
> comfortable. 
> Life now seems to unfold in its own way. Sometimes
> career is uppermost in my mind; sometimes family;
> sometimes Dhamma; sometimes akusala; sometimes
> kusala.
> I think it must be like this for us all. When we try
> to resist nature, even in refined ways,  we move
> away
> from the present moment.
> We all want to have a happy life; but if we do not
> understand Dhamma we do things that lead away from
> happiness. The first javanna citta in every
> mind-door
> process can give its results in this life. The
> others,
> except for the seventh, can give results in future
> lives even 100,000aeons from now (or more). I used
> to
> worry about making decisions; should I do this or do
> that, what will give the best advantage; and this
> whether to do with daily life or things to do with
> “my” Dhamma practice. I find I hardly  worry about
> making decisions about almost anything now. 
> Deep-down
> I know happiness only comes from kusala citta (past
> and present) and whether things go right or wrong is
> not dependent much on “my” decisions. Nonetheless
> maybe in the future this will change and I will
> worry
> more- defilements run deep- who knows what will
> come.
> . 
> 
> You wrote "this is in fact only very little
> compared the larger part of our day,(at least for
> me)
> when more gross
> manifestations of lobha, dosa and moha occur.(I hate
> karaoke
> bars because 'noise' is not seen as 'sound',and dosa
> causes this
> body to move away before it can come into contact
> with
> objects
> which would have aroused lobha)".
> 
> Do you think “gross manifestations of lobha, dosa
> and
> moha” are worse than  refined ones? I don’t. The
> strong ones taught me a lot and still do. They show
> me
> what I really am – a skinbag full of defilements.
> Moreover when they arise it is actually the latent
> tendencies showing themselves – they are not us,
> they
> are dhammas. Lobha is lobha whether in the Brahma
> realm or the animal world. Khun Sujin asked me last
> time I was in Bangkok that: if a Brahma god (who is
> in
> a different bhumi (plane) from us has lobha is the
> lobha of the kama loka (the bhumi we and animals etc
> are in) or the Brahma loka. It is simply lobha and
> it
> is of the kama loka – the same bhumi as us.
> I used to feel nervous (very) when flying but  fear
> helped me learn about the characteristic of sati. We
> have fear because of clinging to self. Sati and
> sampajanna, of satipatthana, see dhammas as merely
> dhammas. How can there be fear with such
> understanding. When moments of sati come in between
> the moments of fear, or anger or lobha much can be
> learnt. It is like you said 
> ” on a couple of occasions there have been more
> calm by means of consideration of realities.” 
> . 
> It is more than simply study Abhidhamma, listen to
> khun sujin, understand anatta and everything will be
> OK. I think some do have the idea that that is all
> it
> takes. However this path does need effort, lots of
> it;
> but effort so profound that only wisdom really knows
> what it is.  
> All we can learn from others is the details of the
> Tipitika and then by discussion with the right
> people
> we can see some of our attachments to wrong view, to
> self, to wrong practice. Beyond that I think only
> panna that arises dependent on hearing, considering,
> direct study of dhammas, and past accumulations can
> distinguish what the way is. Don't take my word for
> it
> though - please comment more- if you or anyone can
> explain other ways I will certainly consider them.
> 
> You wrote
> ".Or because long time no practice, may
> need to start from the basic."
> 
> We need to start from the basic at every moment.
> Check
> to see whether you have desire to understand? can
> you
> 
=== message truncated ===



 
1203 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Friends,

That reminds me of another joke that reminded me of
how I have to look at 'taking in' wise counsel:

A skeleton walks into a bar, and says, "Gimme a beer. 
And a mop."

mn

--- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:
> 
> Dear Sukin and Alex,
> I think it might have been Kom who was making the
> point (a useful one) that by clinging to a place
> such
> as a meditation center one might have wrong practice
> whereas the karaoke bar, having no "spiritual"
> significance might not catch us in this same subtle
> way. 
> 
> On the question of the second sampajanna I thought I
> would repost this:
> A final point:  none of what we have been saying
> about
> this is meant to encourage anyone to go to karaoke
> (or
> worse). It is rather to show that we can follow our
> own accumulations, behaviour wise, whether they lead
> one to be a monk, a nun, an eightprecept layman or
> someone who lives life fully endowed with the five
> strands of sense pleasures. And that panna can
> develop
> in whatever lifestyle one is leading. We may find
> that
> karaoke and other pursuits loose their interest
> after
> sometime, perhaps through boredom, or getting older,
> or even because sila grows stronger (naturally I
> mean,
> not by forcing). I notice that Khun sujin leads a
> rather simple life (no details).But the only reply
> she
> gives, if I ask why she abstains from this or that
> is
> "don't copy". This is a wise response; no one can
> tell
> us what is the most suitable lifestyle for us; but
> by
> developing understanding our own unique
> accumulations
> are gradually uncovered . Then we know for ourself
> what is suitable (for us) and what is not. 
> 
> There was a joke on another list that made me laugh:
> The reporter asks the very successful businessman
> “how
> did you do it?”
> Businessman: two words: right decisions.
> Reporter: How did you reach the right decisions?
> Businessman: One word: experience.
> Reporter: how did you get experience?
> Businessman: two words: wrong decisions.
> Robert
> 
> 

 
1204 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
   wrote:

> Hard work for all of us; reading,
> considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition
> kusala citta? 

It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a little
suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
however, I've been walking around smiling like an
idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!

mn 


 
1205 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply!  Sorry for the
lateness of this response.

 wrote:

> You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding
> of
> paticusamupada into the actual experience. 

Exactly--though on a very coarse level, I know.

> Nothing
> wrong with that - we can see this to some extent.
> However, remember that sati does not have to take
> feeling as an object. It could have taken
> rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment.
> At
> the moment of seeing there always only neutral
> feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises
> later. 

Thanks--I didn't know that.

> You said "arises after feeling before desire"
> (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise  before
> the
> nivarana of sense desire arises ") but in reality
> it is happening so fast that any idea of time
> sequence
> is  just an idea, a concept based on what we have
> heard. 

Understood.

> We can understand someting of this process
> but
> it may be  counterproductive if we try to force the
> the theory into the actual moments. 

Actually, trying to match the memory of experience
with the theory (retropsectively).  If
paticcasamuppada doesn't operate on this (coarse)
level or in this way, definitely counterproductive.
 
> Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be
> paraphrased,
> 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact
> between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa),
> pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact,
> desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant
> feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling,
> clinging (identification with desire) arises
> dependent
> on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I
> desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the
> contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of
> paticcasamuppada.  Does this sound about right?"
 
> It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty
> woman- only colors ).  

Right--shouldn't it just be, 'only light'?

> Just for those who might think
> this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't
> think
> this mm!) we should understand that these processes
> are being repeated billions of times a second. 

I do.  But had/have an idea that they also occur on a
more observable scale--no?

> How
> much we really see of it all (directly) depends on
> the
> level of panna that has acumulated. 

Yes--or rather, 'how much understanding arises depends
on the accumulations?'
 
> Still the more we learn about the theory of
> paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation
> into it in daily life- and that can't be bad.
> Robert  
> (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha)

At this address, it's still 'being done' with lobha. 
I hope that it's moving in the direction of 'being
done' without it...

Thanks again,

mn



 
1206 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:56am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Sukin,
--- Sukinder Narula  wrote: > I
thought I
> found 
> the answer to my own statement in the last post,
> namely;
> "Besides, the intellect may be convinced,but do I
> need
> to listen to any other aspect of my being?"
> I thought "what is this 'other aspect of my being?'"
> I've got only this six sense doors,the workings of
> which
> is probably explained in the abhidhamma.The whole
> world 
> is known through these sense doors.How else can I
> know 
> the world?  

Yes, indeed. It is so hard because it is always "self"
trying to understand "self". That is why the first
step (a long, long step) is to remove the idea of
self. 
Robert



 
1207 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:15am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> But until our panna is well developed, any
> attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable to
> our own situation will surely result in the kind of
> wrong practice that you so well describe here and in
> your comments on Kom’s posting.
> 
> If and when panna is well developed, it arises and
> performs its function (in this case, seeing the
> danger
> in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course,
> without
> having to be called upon to do so.

So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings
attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the
difference?  Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and 'the
real deal'?  

> So that brings us back to developing understanding
> of
> the reality of the present moment, regardless of the
> uwholesome (and unpleasant) states we may be
> experiencing.

Understood...
 
> On the other point you mentioned, the citta arising
> with panna is of course a kusala citta and so there
> can be no akusala whatsoever at that particular
> moment.

Thanks again, Jonothan...

mn


 
1208 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> As you will have realised by now, Amara is a living
> encyclopedia of abhidhamma, with understanding to
> match

Yes!  As well as I'm able to realize it...

> (you’d be surprised how many abhidhamma
> scholars
> there are who lack that quality!).  

Not at all!  That's exactly what has kept me away from
abhidhamma for all these years--until finding this
list.

> We are very
> fortunate to have her on the list, and to have
> access
> to the materials on her website.

Very fortunate, to say the least.  I would go as far
as to say that this list, because of Amara and so many
others of you, is about the most fortunate thing
that's ever happened to me--except, I suppose, hearing
of the buddhadhamma in the first place...
 
Thanks again,

Saadhu!

mn


 
1209 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Robert,
I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet
in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be
actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The
activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'?
Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna
to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of
a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?

Sukin.
PS: I liked your;

> Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> death happens it will be just like this.

'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy
to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as
opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much
taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks.

 
1210 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:29pm
Subject: Re: Accumulations-continued

 
  > So:  The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or
> conditioned (in the same sense that the citta
> are)--they become active dependent on the
> accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this
> right?


Dear Mike,

Some of the cetasika function at all times, to use a medical 
analogy, like your heart and lungs.  Other organs may have periods 
of rest, but the moment these two stop altogether it is the end of 
that lifetime. The sappa citta satarana cetasika (cetasika common 
to all citta) and the citta is even more continuously arising and 
falling away, through samsara, until panna is able to stop them 
forever.  The cutti citta or the citta that performs the function of 
passing on to the next life passes on all the accumulations to the 
next citta or the patisandhi citta (birth citta) which is a vipaka 
citta since at that time it is the result of some former kamma, no 
new ones are possible yet.  But all the accumulations of endless 
lifetimes that has not resulted yet or has not finished yeilding 
results and that are ready to do so will function to determine from 
the color of your hair to the shape of your toenails (you're right, 
it is reminiscent of genes or even DNA) to whether you will live an 
eternity (like the Brahma) or the lifespan of a fruitfly.  Or 
whether you will hear the dhamma or not (think of the Buddha's 
teachers Aralatapas and Utakatapas!) in that lifetime.  

One of the 'sappa' is cetana cetasika (intention or volition) which 
is the main cause of accumulations.  It functions at different 
levels of strength, much like the kilesa, for example when it arises 
with vipaka (which arises to receive the result of past kamma), it 
is imperceptible, just helping the citta to experience the vipaka 
arising.  It does not accumulate anything further.  

Its characteristics show when there is intention to do something and 
the attempt to do it.  An extreme example is when Devadata tried to 
assasinate the Buddha and the monstruosity of the cetana was such 
that even though the Buddha had no accumulations to die that way, 
the vipaka of the cetana was immediate and resulted in his death and 
sufferings in hell right then.  Khun sujin says that whatever you 
intend for other people is accumulated for you yourself in your own 
citta, whether the other people had the accumulation to suffer from 
your intentions or not.  This is indeed feeding the gass pellets in 
enormous quantities.

In between there are the normal daily accumulation, usually lobha, 
such as liking a pretty flower (or girls?), you may not even want it 
but it is like a pianist who practices, you could get better or 
remain the same, depending.  But it is also impossible to live 
without lobha (except for the arahanta, and then they no longer come 
back to be), can you give up your eyes and ears now, never to read 
or hear about even the dhamma again?  It is also one of the reasons 
for your smile, although the other reasons for it, for example piti 
in learning the truth, could lead you to another sort of smile, 
unique to the arahanta!

Have fun figuring it all out, anumodana,

Amara



 
> Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something
> obvious.  This is all pretty new to me, and it helps
> if I can simplify it a little.

Just a note: oversimplifiaction could lead to misconception later on 
so please take your time, after all the Buddha spent 45 years 
teaching it so the least we can do is to consider it carefully, we 
are lucky to have any access to it at all these days!

 
 
1211 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 1:42pm
Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear friends,

I remember Khun Sujin remarking that one sure way of spoiling someone 
and making them so inflated they burst completely is praising them!

Amara

 
1212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 4:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Sukin,
No musts or shoulds, I think. No rules. Sit until you
want to sit no more. Understanding and awareness can
come while sitting quietly.  Have you looked at the
Meghiya sutta- it might be relevant here.
Nina van gorkom's book 'world in the buddhist sense"
gives a profound examination of wrong practice-
available from amazon.uk.

I thought some more about sadda, confidence and how it
waxes and wanes. It has to be this way because only
the sotapanna has eradicated doubt forever. We are not
enlightened yet. We still have doubt, from time to
time, about the Dhamma, doubt about the path,  about
our progress, about our abilities and accumulations.
Doubt won't throw us so much if we have investigated
its patterns and currents. Doubt conditions anxiety
because we resist it. We want(lobha) to be sure about
our understanding; but lobha can never show us the
path. The way out is to understand these moments too,
as they arise; then they help us by becoming objects
for awareness. We can ride out the waves of doubt and
confusion with understanding. And if we can't that is
dhamma too. Doubt arises because it has to be arise.
And wide knowledge of the texts is invaluable.
Robert
--- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:
> Dear Robert,
> I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
> Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my
> feet
> in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I
> may be
> actually hindering the possibility of understanding.
> The
> activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
> Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong
> view'?
> Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for
> panna
> to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis
> of
> a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?
> 
> Sukin.
> PS: I liked your;
> 
> > Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> > death happens it will be just like this.
> 
> 'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is
> relatively easy
> to view everything else in terms of 'convetional
> reality' as
> opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death
> is so much
> taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more.
> Thanks.
> 
> 




 
1213 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 5:56pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  >  
> > It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty
> > woman- only colors ).  
> 
> Right--shouldn't it just be, 'only light'?


Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
consciousness) to arise. These are the cakkhupasasada
(sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
or contact (I forget which) and light. 
Some people wonder about this because we are used to
scientific explanations that classify colour as part
of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
eight inseparable rupas that make up even the tiniest
atom. It is a complex subject even in the fundamental
terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
about visible object because this is just what appears
to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller had
 a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he
may have some useful observations.

> 
> > Just for those who might think
> > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't
> > think
> > this mm!) we should understand that these
> processes
> > are being repeated billions of times a second. 
> 
> I do.  But had/have an idea that they also occur on
> a
> more observable scale--no?


Yes they do. But when we see it on this scale it is
still a type of thinking. I call it "considering in
the present moment" - many levels of this too. It can
be very helpful but it is only at the moments of
vipassana nana, the more advanced ones, that actual
direct understanding of paticcasmupada is gained.
> 
> > > Robert



 
1214 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:14pm
Subject: pali question

 
  Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my 
question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or 
anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a 
very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the 
meantime the heaps have  experienced several other teachers and 
approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was 
accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional 
language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real 
duration).

Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology 
of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, 
but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing 
it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly 
goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just 
want to get the right one. 

The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with 
an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The 
modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha 
is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I 
think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that 
attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such 
as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter 
interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes 
for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in 
with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was 
considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the 
Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha 
specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who 
is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see 
another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one 
example I could use.

Thanks very much.

metta, Joe

 
1215 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 6:34pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question

 
  Dear Joe,
Welcome to the group! We are expecially glad to have
someone who studied with Khun Sujin in the past. Your
pali questions are way beyond me but I found your
reasoning sound (if it is right I don't know). .
> I'm guessing 
> it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt,
> meaning worldly 
> goals/concerns). .
 
paramattha is carefully defined in the ancient
commentaries and it means ultimate or fundamental. 
I guess Amara might have some ideas on this. It is
often compared with pannati, concept and samutti,
conventional. Only citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana
are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities.
Robert 




> 
> The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a
> discussion with 
> an editor about the proper translation of
> Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The 
> modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation
> of Siddhartha 
> is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his
> goal'. However I 
> think a better translation might be one that makes
> it clear that 
> attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than
> spiritual, goals (such 
> as 'One who has attained perfect material success').
> The latter 
> interpretation makes sense in light of his parents'
> alleged wishes 
> for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context
> of the times in 
> with Siddhartha was born, when artha or
> wealth/property was 
> considered one of the four main human objectives
> mandated by the 
> Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim
> that attha/artha 
> specifically refers to material or worldly issues,
> but my editor, who 
> is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk,
> would like to see 
> another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if
> paramattha is one 
> example I could use.
> 
> Thanks very much.
> 
> metta, Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
1216 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 7:02pm
Subject: Re: pali question

 
  > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology 
> of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali, 
> but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing 
> it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly 
> goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just 
> want to get the right one. 


Hi!

Parama means great, supreme, thorough, and attha, as you know may 
mean several things: the meaning, the essence, the goal, as you said, 
so in fact paramatthadhamma means the ultimate essence of the truth, 
in other words 'absolute reality', as we say in our classes.

I would suspect that the use of the word attha here would be 
different from the use in the name Siddhattha because here attha is 
obviously the goal, and the name would be more or less one who 
attains his goal, as your editor says, without necessarily 
specifying whether it is material or not.  Not that I'm Pali 
knowledgeable or anything, I just have a friend who is!
 
I rather think I agree with your editor, because when the brahmins 
predicted his future at his birth, they all said he would rule the 
world (or something to that effect) either in the worldly or the 
religious sense, except for the last branmin who specified uniquely 
the religious.  In this light I think his parents would have named 
him auspiciously to succeed in either of his goals, no matter which 
he happened to choose.  

But that is my personal opinion which in no way reflect that of this 
group, hope it was of some use,

Amara

> The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion
with 
> an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha.
The 
> modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha 
> is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I 
> think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that 
> attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such 
> as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter 
> interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes 
> for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in 
> with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was 
> considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the 
> Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that 
attha/artha 
> specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, 
who 
> is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see 
> another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is
one 
> example I could use.

 
1217 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations-continued

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:

> Just a note: oversimplifiaction could lead to
> misconception later on 
> so please take your time, after all the Buddha spent
> 45 years 
> teaching it so the least we can do is to consider it
> carefully, we 
> are lucky to have any access to it at all these
> days!

Amara, thanks for the excellent and detailed
clarifications and corrections.  And your caution is
well taken.  An old habit I'd do well to break.  I
will have fun figuring it all out--thank you again for
all the help.

Anumodana,

mn


 
1218 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 8:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
> consciousness) to arise. These are the
> cakkhupasasada
> (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
> or contact (I forget which) and light. 
> Some people wonder about this because we are used to
> scientific explanations that classify colour as part
> of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
> eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> tiniest
> atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> fundamental
> terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
> do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
> about visible object because this is just what
> appears
> to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
> light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
> this topic, as seeing arises so often. Alan weller
> had
>  a few discussions with khun sujin about this so he
> may have some useful observations.

Interesting--much, much more homework...

> > > Just for those who might think
> > > this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't
> > > think
> > > this mm!) we should understand that these
> > > processes
> > > are being repeated billions of times a second. 
> > 
> > I do.  But had/have an idea that they also occur
> > on
> > a
> > more observable scale--no?

> Yes they do. But when we see it on this scale it is
> still a type of thinking. I call it "considering in
> the present moment" - many levels of this too. It
> can
> be very helpful but it is only at the moments of
> vipassana nana, the more advanced ones, that actual
> direct understanding of paticcasmupada is gained.

Understood--thanks again.

mn


 
1219 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:20am
Subject: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Alex,

I know you were just kidding and we all need a bit of ribbing but actually 
there is a good point behind it which I'm prompted to raise.

What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to 
meditate more?  Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without 
having to worry about livelihood issues?  Should it be because we will 
realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter 
lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle 
with few possessions?

Of course there are any number of reasons why someone may become a monk (or 
nun). It's important to be honest about the motive.  With the development of 
right understanding, we begin to learn that understanding can develop in 
daily life and we don't have to cut ourselves off or avoid our unwholesome 
tendencies in order to know more about the realities appearing. Furthermore 
the understanding doesn't depend on how much free time we have to study or 
how calm we are. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there 
is that the lifestyle at the present moment is just fine and conditioned 
already and knowing the realities is all that matters. It's not the outer 
appearance or situation that counts.

So what should the reason for becoming a monk be?  Khun Sujin has said to me 
more than once that the ONLY reason to become a monk should be that this is 
what comes naturally for one. That one is following one's natural 
accumulations and doing what comes easily. This means it's easy for one to 
give up home, possessions, city life, family too. It doesn't mean one will 
develop more understanding. We have to be honest with ourselves and this is 
why perhaps Alex's ribbing is useful!

Sarah


> >I have hardly had time to glance at a
> >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about
> >paramattha dhammas.
>
>    =^_^=  I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet.  The conditions
>are not yet there.   =^_^=
>


 
1221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:32am
Subject: Sapaya Sampajanna

 
  Dear Amara,

yes, it's interesting....in the beginning one thinks of sapaya in terms os 
'situation', then as understanding grows it begins to know that when we 
think in terms of suitable situation it can be an aspect of clinging to 
self.

>I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations
>and level of understanding.  In the Sutta I remember a story when a
>bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some
>reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and
>he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the
>streets.  The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and
>the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him
>and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where
>he was.  The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his
>level also.  The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of
>thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern
>streets?  But now that I think about it, how would one know if it
>hasn't happened?

like you write below, in the end with more understanding any visible object 
or reality anywhere can be sapaya if conditions are right!

  That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't
>have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied,
>therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right
>understanding.
>
>Does this make any sense?

yes, it's a bit of a riddle depending on the understanding at the time. If 
it comes down to the visible object being sapaya, then how is it different 
to the 4th sampajanna at that moment?!
>
>Amara
>
>By the way the word sapaya is the origin of the word sabaii in Thai,
>which means comfortable, at ease, happy.  (and the slang for 'that's
>easy!')

This is interesting, I hadn't make the connection... usually when Thais talk 
about sabaii and mai sabaii, it seems to mean the situation is not an object 
of lobha at that time! Not quite the same meaning! On one visit, khun Sujin 
asked me to teach her some yoga exercises. After 2 minutes, it was 'mai 
sabaii'. Of course in her case it may have not been sapaya.....>


 
1222 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:44am
Subject: welcome joe

 
  Dear Joe,

welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any 
protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like an 
exotic buffet at the moment...

Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There are a 
few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be interesting 
to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you 
feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'?

I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did encourage 
me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you!

Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime!

Sarah

>
>Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my
>question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or
>anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a
>very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the
>meantime the heaps have  experienced several other teachers and
>approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was
>accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional
>language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real
>duration).
>
>Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology
>of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali,
>but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing
>it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly
>goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just
>want to get the right one.
>
>The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with
>an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The
>modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha
>is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I
>think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that
>attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such
>as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter
>interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes
>for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in
>with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was
>considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the
>Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha
>specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who
>is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see
>another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one
>example I could use.
>
>Thanks very much.
>
>metta, Joe


 
1223 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:50pm
Subject: Re: Sapaya Sampajanna

 
  > yes, it's a bit of a riddle depending on the understanding at the 
time. If 
> it comes down to the visible object being sapaya, then how is it 
different 
> to the 4th sampajanna at that moment?!


Dear Sarah,

Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on 
the other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, 
whatever comes could be studied.

Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- 
with-moha or wrong understanding).

I think all four help each other and awareness to arise,

Amara

 
1224 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:57pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke

 
  Dear Mike and friends,

   Thank you for giving me the 'credit'.  I think the credit should go to 
Amara, Jonothan, Sarah, Robert, Kom, you, Leonardo, ... And above all, Khun 
Sujin as well as Nina VG.  And I think that we were saying the same thing.

   I begin to relax and observe with understanding the gross emotion more.

Metta,
AT
==============
>From: protectID
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sampajanna/karoke
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:07:35 -0000
>
>Dear Sukin and Alex,
>
>Alex, I think you might have got the 'credit' for my not-terribly
>skilful reply,
>
> > ...yes--maybe the karaoke is safer.  Because in the
> > sala, the meditator thinks s/he is safe...
>
>Your answer was much better!
>
>Thanks to you all for your patience.
>
>mn
>
>---  "A T"  wrote:
> > Dear Sukin,
> >
> > >And then when someone(think it was Alex)commented
> > >that it was perhaps easier to have sati in a karaoke bar than in
> > >a meditation retreat,
> >
> >    I was shocked reading this part because I know that sati can
>rise
> > anywhere since it's uncontrollable.  Therefore, I went to archive
>to check
> > what I said.  What I said in the Message # 1072 was to answer
>Robert's
> > question:
> >
> > >That it can arise anywhere. And if it arises in a
> > >karaoke then that is a moment of adhisila(higher sila)
> > >and that is more valuable than any outward appearance
> > >of sila.
> > >Now, to conclude this long story, how can satipatthana
> > >arise in a karaoke?
> > >
> > >It is past my bedtime.  Would anyone else care to give
> > >an answer? mn, Alex, O, Shin, leonardo, Kom, Sukin?
> > >see you tommorow
> > >Robert
> > >
> >
> >    My answer:
> >
> >    With sati and panna.  And we should not be fooled by the look of
>a
> > karaoke attendant.  He may look serene, or agitated, but maybe his
>sati is
> > very strong at that moment.
> >
> > With Metta,
> > Alex
>
>


 
1225 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  Dear Mike,

   I admire your panna.  :-)))

Metta,
AT
=============
>From: "m. nease" 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight
>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> wrote:
>
> > Hard work for all of us; reading,
> > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition
> > kusala citta?
>
>It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a little
>suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
>reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
>however, I've been walking around smiling like an
>idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
>these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
>akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!
>
>mn
>

 
1226 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Amara,

   That's why I try to be honest and objective when saying something 
positive to someone.  If I contribute lobha to others' life, I feel that 
it's an akusala action.

Metta,
AT
===============
>From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations  (Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 05:42:18 -0000
>
>Dear friends,
>
>I remember Khun Sujin remarking that one sure way of spoiling someone
>and making them so inflated they burst completely is praising them!
>
>Amara
>

 
1227 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:31pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  Thanks, Alex,

Thank you, Ma'am, you're lightyears ahead of me.  By
the way, when I said 'credit', I was being a little
facetious.  I don't think my post was particularly
credit-worthy--yours was much better-informed.

Mettaa back at you,

mn
--- A T  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> 
>    I admire your panna.  :-)))
> 
> Metta,
> AT
> =============
> >From: "m. nease" 
> > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight
> >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hard work for all of us; reading,
> > > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it
> condition
> > > kusala citta?
> >
> >It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a
> little
> >suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
> >reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
> >however, I've been walking around smiling like an
> >idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
> >these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
> >akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!
> >
> >mn
> >

 
1228 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 10:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Sarah and friends,

   Thank you for your excellent explanation.  I know that if the conditions 
to be a monk are not there, sooner or later, he'll disrobe.  What Sarah said 
in this post reminds me of the title of a book "The Path of Least 
Resistant".

Metta,
Alex


>From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] to be or not to be a monk?
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:20:30 CST
>
>Dear Alex,
>
>I know you were just kidding and we all need a bit of ribbing but actually
>there is a good point behind it which I'm prompted to raise.
>
>What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in order to
>meditate more?  Should it be to have more time for dhamma study without
>having to worry about livelihood issues?  Should it be because we will
>realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd quieter
>lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple lifestyle
>with few possessions?
>
>Of course there are any number of reasons why someone may become a monk (or
>nun). It's important to be honest about the motive.  With the development 
>of
>right understanding, we begin to learn that understanding can develop in
>daily life and we don't have to cut ourselves off or avoid our unwholesome
>tendencies in order to know more about the realities appearing. Furthermore
>the understanding doesn't depend on how much free time we have to study or
>how calm we are. The more understanding develops, the more confidence there
>is that the lifestyle at the present moment is just fine and conditioned
>already and knowing the realities is all that matters. It's not the outer
>appearance or situation that counts.
>
>So what should the reason for becoming a monk be?  Khun Sujin has said to 
>me
>more than once that the ONLY reason to become a monk should be that this is
>what comes naturally for one. That one is following one's natural
>accumulations and doing what comes easily. This means it's easy for one to
>give up home, possessions, city life, family too. It doesn't mean one will
>develop more understanding. We have to be honest with ourselves and this is
>why perhaps Alex's ribbing is useful!
>
>Sarah
>
>
> > >I have hardly had time to glance at a
> > >pretty girl- and when I do can't help thinking about
> > >paramattha dhammas.
> >
> >    =^_^=  I don't think that you're cut to be a monk yet.  The 
>conditions
> >are not yet there.   =^_^=
> >
>

 
1230 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:08pm
Subject: Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  ---  "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
 wrote:

> What should the reason be for becoming a monk? Should it be in 
order to 
> meditate more?  Should it be to have more time for dhamma study 
without 
> having to worry about livelihood issues?  Should it be because we 
will 
> realise nibbana sooner? Should it be in order to lead a calmer qnd 
quieter 
> lifestyle and to be more peaceful? Should it be to live a simple 
lifestyle 
> with few possessions?

Excellent questions, Sarah, and of considerable practical interest to 
me, as I've been planning to ordain for some time.  In fact, and for 
reasons pertinent to your questions, that intention has faded 
considerably since meeting you all.  There is little doubt 'in my 
mind' that the instruction I can receive via this list is more 
valuable than that which I would have received (and experienced) had 
I gone ahead with my previous plans.  

You're probably familar with the Samannaphalasutta, wherein the 
Buddha discusses 'the fruits of the life of a recluse'.  
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html)  It was with 
these 'fruits' in mind (in my usual vague sort of way) that I first 
ordained, and intended to ordain again.  All of your questions are 
clearly addressed there (as I recall!).

Though I'd still very much like to ordain again somtime, my reasons 
now are somewhat different.  Robert (I think) mentioned in passing, 
not long ago, that in this era, (I'm paraphrasing), the only approach 
available to advanced states is vipassanaa.  If that is true, it 
changes the picture considerably.  In this discourse as well as in 
many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I THINK) clearly on 
approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas.  If this is no longer an 
option (or not at present), then seeking an environment conducive to 
that kind of bhavana is no longer a good reason to ordain (though I 
do think there are still other good reasons).

This same reasoning has had quite an effect on all my cherished 
micchaditthi.  I have been, for a long time, employing samatha 
techniques for protection from the dukkhavedanaa attendant on the 
kilesas, moreover taking these 'practices' to be satipatthana and the 
resultant sukkha and pithi to be vipassanaa.  Ha!  The joke's on me.  
This is a little like suddenly being relieved of all my clothes, 
outdoors, on a cold day.  Chilling, embarrassing and liberating all 
at once.  No wonder I want robes!  (That's a joke).

Thanks as always, Sarah, for your thoughtful post (and Alex for your 
thoughtful ribbing!)

mn

 
1231 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:49pm
Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  >    That's why I try to be honest and objective when saying
something 
> positive to someone.  If I contribute lobha to others' life, I feel 
that 
> it's an akusala action.


Dear Alex,

Thank you for your sincerity, I sometimes wonder about the 
difference between saying kind things when it is true which should 
be kusala, and encouraging lobha.  Although lobha, as Varee wrote in 
Q&A3 in our website,  'Any unpleasant or undesirable feeling is 
dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want.  But a closer 
enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha.  Generally overlooked 
because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy that pleases 
with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to overcome.'  Of course 
we can't encourage it in someone who doesn't have the lobha cetasika 
any more, or has one that is greatly reduced.  But don't we try to 
be pleasant and make people happy rather than give them dosa?  In 
fact the sila describes musavada in the finer points as, besides 
lying, to speak words that are like putting a lotus stem in the 
other's ears.  Ouch!  Perhaps it is the intention that counts, was 
it to hurt or to say the truth when appropriate?  I don't think 
there is any mention of saying nice true things being against a sila 
unless there is the intention to spoil the person.  I think Khun 
Sujin meant most people do lose sight of their limits when there is 
too much praise some begin to believe they are really great and 
become over confident.  In fact we should learn to endure both blame 
and praise, I think, like the Ven. Sariputta who said he was like 
the earth that did not react to all the dirt cast on it or the 
precious things placed on it, or something to that effect.  Which 
shows how much further we have to go to be really steadfast in the 
dhamma, since we lose our equanimity over both!  

Amara

 
1232 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 17, 2000 11:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  --- protectID wrote: > --- In 
> You're probably familar with the Samannaphalasutta,
> wherein the 
> Buddha discusses 'the fruits of the life of a
> recluse'.  
>
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html)
>  It was with 
> these 'fruits' in mind (in my usual vague sort of
> way) that I first 
> ordained, and intended to ordain again.  > 
> Though I'd still very much like to ordain again
> somtime, my reasons 
> now are somewhat different.  Robert (I think)
> mentioned in passing, 
> not long ago, that in this era, (I'm paraphrasing),
> the only approach 
> available to advanced states is vipassanaa. 

All paths need vipassana but it is said that now only
the path of pure vipassana is available, not the
"freed in both ways" types who were so skilled in (had
mastery - it was 'daily life' for them) jhana that
they could use jhana as the basis for vipassana. 


 If that
> is true, it 
> changes the picture considerably.  In this discourse
> as well as in 
> many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I THINK)
> clearly on 
> approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas.  

Actually, I think this sutta is very comprehensive and
includes all ways. The Buddha, by showing the "freed
in both ways", that most comprehensive of paths, also
includes the slightly inferior sukka-vippasaka types.
By the way an excellent translation with commentary by
Bhikkhu Bodhi: "the discourse on the fruits of
recluseship"

I think we can't be absolutely certain who is suited
for the monks life. Some had great hardship and pain
as monks and nuns  but still attained. If one becomes
a monk  accumulations are needed for certain
lifestyles. Not all monks went into the forest. Upali,
the vinaya expert wanted to but the Buddha told him to
stay in the vihara so that he could learn more- he
became arahant. 
On the other hand, the milinda-panha says that the
dhutanga have so many manifold benefits - it almost
sounds like it is a requirement.  I think the
milinda-panha  indicates that laypeople who attain as
laypeople must have been, or usually would have been,
monks or nuns under previous Buddha -sasanas so that
they accumulated the wisdom to be enlightened now. 

Then again the vissudhimagga notes that some go to the
forest through delusion etc.
Another complication is modern times- many problems
with the sangha as a whole. 


Ultimately a moment of satipatthana is a moment of the
deepest type of renunciation - the renunciation of
self, and that applies whether one is a layperson or a
monk. 
robert




 
1233 From: A T   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear friends,

   After reading near the end of the Sutta at: 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html

'Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the 
monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not 
killed his father -- that righteous man, that righteous king -- the 
dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this 
very seat." '

I feel that most of us are wounded, and incapacitated.  Otherwise, with the 
available materials in the internet and books, "the dustless, stainless 
Dhamma eye would have arisen" to us already.

   It seems I'm a little pessimistic.  Back to the drawing board!

Metta,
AT

P.S.: Dear Mike, you're very humble and very knowledgeable.  And you're 
welome.

 
1234 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:53am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question

 
  Dear Joe,
Just got a copy of the Pali Text Society's Pali dictionary. On page420 it
gives the following definition for paramattha:". . .the highest good, ideal;
truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth. . ." Hope this is of some
help.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID


----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Cummings 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] pali question


> Hello everyone. I'm a newcomer to this e-group, so forgive me if my
> question contravenes accepted protocol or goes too far off topic or
> anything like that. I was an occasional student of Ajahn Sujin's a
> very long time ago, and am just now finding my way back. In the
> meantime the heaps have  experienced several other teachers and
> approaches to dhamma instruction (though the little that was
> accumulated via Ajahn Sujin has stuck, if I may use such conventional
> language to describe a process that has nothing to do with real
> duration).
>
> Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology
> of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali,
> but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing
> it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly
> goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just
> want to get the right one.
>
> The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a discussion with
> an editor about the proper translation of Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The
> modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation of Siddhartha
> is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his goal'. However I
> think a better translation might be one that makes it clear that
> attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than spiritual, goals (such
> as 'One who has attained perfect material success'). The latter
> interpretation makes sense in light of his parents' alleged wishes
> for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context of the times in
> with Siddhartha was born, when artha or wealth/property was
> considered one of the four main human objectives mandated by the
> Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim that attha/artha
> specifically refers to material or worldly issues, but my editor, who
> is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk, would like to see
> another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if paramattha is one
> example I could use.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> metta, Joe
>
>

 
1235 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 0:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Alex,

I believe the suttra is mentioning the fact that the king killed his
father, one of the kamma that surely prevents nibbhana in that life. 
One of the interpretation of Buddha's word would be, the king had
accumulated enough panna through his countless previous lives, that had
he not killed his father in that life, and hence preventing nibbhana,
he would have attained enlightenment after hearing what Buddha had
taught him.

For us, venyasatta (those who need to study, most likely for a long
long time), it is just a matter of attaining panna, knowing realities
as they are, moment by moment, until one day, the condition is ripe
(and perhaps while hearing the words from another sammasam buddha!!!),
we will attain enlightenment.

Anumodhana for your continued interest.

kom
--- A T  wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
>    After reading near the end of the Sutta at: 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html
> 
> 'Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed
> the 
> monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he
> not 
> killed his father -- that righteous man, that righteous king -- the 
> dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in
> this 
> very seat." '
> 
> I feel that most of us are wounded, and incapacitated.  Otherwise,
> with the 
> available materials in the internet and books, "the dustless,
> stainless 
> Dhamma eye would have arisen" to us already.
> 
>    It seems I'm a little pessimistic.  Back to the drawing board!
> 
> Metta,
> AT
> 
> P.S.: Dear Mike, you're very humble and very knowledgeable.  And
> you're 
> welome.
> 



 
1236 From: amara chay   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:17am
Subject: Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  If this is no longer an 
> option (or not at present), then seeking an environment conducive
to 
> that kind of bhavana is no longer a good reason to ordain (though I 
> do think there are still other good reasons).
> 
> This same reasoning has had quite an effect on all my cherished 
> micchaditthi.  


Dear Mike,

Anumodana, I am so happy for you!

By the way, tomorrow I might be quite late to get on line if at all, 
and the next day probably not: I'll be off to the seaside with my 
mother, so I'll sign off for awhile, and see everyone on the list 
again soon!

Amara

 
1237 From: A T   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:40am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  Dear Kom,

>For us, venyasatta (those who need to study, most likely for a long
>long time), it is just a matter of attaining panna, knowing realities
>as they are, moment by moment, until one day, the condition is ripe
>(and perhaps while hearing the words from another sammasam buddha!!!),
>we will attain enlightenment.

   Thank you for the encouragement.

Metta,
AT


 
1238 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:01am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- amara chay  wrote:

Dear Amara and Alex,

Thanks for the good words.  As a glutton for praise
myself, this is valuable advice.

Two points:  

(a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance) is
only khanti if it arises in reaction to something that
might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not lobha. 
If that is so, is there another parami--maybe upekkha,
or sacca--maybe just panna--that might arise similarly
in reaction to something that might otherwise cause
the arising of lobha?

(b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving for
the arising of either of these parami?  If there is,
I'd very much like to know how to go about it.  But in
fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in the
present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
arise?

Thanks again,

mn   

> >    That's why I try to be honest and objective
> when saying
> something 
> > positive to someone.  If I contribute lobha to
> others' life, I feel 
> that 
> > it's an akusala action.
> 
> 
> Dear Alex,
> 
> Thank you for your sincerity, I sometimes wonder
> about the 
> difference between saying kind things when it is
> true which should 
> be kusala, and encouraging lobha.  Although lobha,
> as Varee wrote in 
> Q&A3 in our website,  'Any unpleasant or undesirable
> feeling is 
> dosa, the enemy everyone sees and does not want. 
> But a closer 
> enemy, even harder to conquer, is lobha.  Generally
> overlooked 
> because it is the desired aramana, it is the enemy
> that pleases 
> with ever-present pleasure, and much harder to
> overcome.'  Of course 
> we can't encourage it in someone who doesn't have
> the lobha cetasika 
> any more, or has one that is greatly reduced.  But
> don't we try to 
> be pleasant and make people happy rather than give
> them dosa?  In 
> fact the sila describes musavada in the finer points
> as, besides 
> lying, to speak words that are like putting a lotus
> stem in the 
> other's ears.  Ouch!  Perhaps it is the intention
> that counts, was 
> it to hurt or to say the truth when appropriate?  I
> don't think 
> there is any mention of saying nice true things
> being against a sila 
> unless there is the intention to spoil the person. 
> I think Khun 
> Sujin meant most people do lose sight of their
> limits when there is 
> too much praise some begin to believe they are
> really great and 
> become over confident.  In fact we should learn to
> endure both blame 
> and praise, I think, like the Ven. Sariputta who
> said he was like 
> the earth that did not react to all the dirt cast on
> it or the 
> precious things placed on it, or something to that
> effect.  Which 
> shows how much further we have to go to be really
> steadfast in the 
> dhamma, since we lose our equanimity over both!  
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
1239 From: m. nease   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: to be or not to be a monk?

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote:

> All paths need vipassana but it is said that now
> only
> the path of pure vipassana is available, not the
> "freed in both ways" types who were so skilled in
> (had
> mastery - it was 'daily life' for them) jhana that
> they could use jhana as the basis for vipassana. 

Thanks for the clarification, and my apologies for the
crude paraphrase of your previous remarks.

> > If that
> > is true, it 
> > changes the picture considerably.  In this
> > discourse
> > as well as in 
> > many others in the nikaya, the emphasis is (I
> > THINK)
> > clearly on 
> > approaching nibbana by way of the jhanas.  
 
> Actually, I think this sutta is very comprehensive
> and
> includes all ways. The Buddha, by showing the "freed
> in both ways", that most comprehensive of paths,
> also
> includes the slightly inferior sukka-vippasaka
> types.
> By the way an excellent translation with commentary
> by
> Bhikkhu Bodhi: "the discourse on the fruits of
> recluseship"

...again, thanks for the clarification/correction...

> Not all monks went into the forest.
> Upali,
> the vinaya expert wanted to but the Buddha told him
> to
> stay in the vihara so that he could learn more- he
> became arahant.

If I knew that, I'd forgotten.  Quite encouraging! 
Where can I read more?
 
> On the other hand, the milinda-panha says that the
> dhutanga have so many manifold benefits - it almost
> sounds like it is a requirement.  I think the
> milinda-panha  indicates that laypeople who attain
> as
> laypeople must have been, or usually would have
> been,
> monks or nuns under previous Buddha -sasanas so that
> they accumulated the wisdom to be enlightened now. 
> 
> Then again the vissudhimagga notes that some go to
> the
> forest through delusion etc.
> Another complication is modern times- many problems
> with the sangha as a whole. 

And not just modern times--a good portion of the
vinayapitaka is a history of deluded monks, who had
often had the benefit of the Buddha's direct
teaching...

> Ultimately a moment of satipatthana is a moment of
> the
> deepest type of renunciation - the renunciation of
> self, and that applies whether one is a layperson or
> a
> monk. 

Well put, and thanks again...

mn


 
1240 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 11:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Mike,
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> --- > 
> (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance)
> is
> only khanti if it arises in reaction to something
> that
> might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not
> lobha. 

Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be
developed toward pleasant things too. This is often
overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when we
are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors
ae guarded.


> > 
> (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving
> for
> the arising of either of these parami?  If there is,
> I'd very much like to know how to go about it.  But
> in
> fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in
> the
> present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
> arise?

Nina van gorkom has wriiten a book on the parami - I
think amara will put it on the web one day.

> 
> Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
heaven". The Buddha said gains and praise are so dire
so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who was
overcome by them.
However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of it
this is not our concern really. It is like giving- if
you are so worried that the person you give to might
not use the gift in the right way you might never
give.
Of course if you know that praise will definitely
spoil the person then don't praise.
If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them to
like you. It can be done from wrong view- example some
people praise their deluded teachers so much(think of
cults).
robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> 



 
1241 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:11pm
Subject: paramattha

 
  Dear Robert & Amara

Thanks very much for your feedback on "paramattha". It sounds like the 
'attha' in this term is not related to the 'attha/artha' meaning 'goal' or 
'wealth'. It's a little difficult to tell without a dictionary since Pali, 
in simplifying Sanskrit's consonant clusters, created a whole new class of 
homonyms. I would still like to go further with this term, to get at its 
exact historical meaning, as opposed to simpler (but not necessarily 
'fundamental') definitions provided by the commentaries. For personal 
edification only ...

Just as abhidhamma scrutinises 'seeing' or 'touching', I do think every 
word in the Pali texts needs unpacking at some point, to really get at the 
kernel meanings. I don't see how it's possible to really understand the 
tripitaka without studying Pali and Sanskrit, just as you can't really 
understand the Christian Bible without knowing Hebrew (and arguably Greek), 
or understand the Koran without a thorough knowledge of classical Arabic. 
Otherwise you're always trusting someone else's interpretation of the text, no?

This is really a wonderful discussion group. The exchange on sabaya/sabaai 
reminded me of the literal meaning of sawatdii in Thai, loosely 
'well-being' (literally 'it is well' -- 'su + asti' -- a Vedic 'power 
phrase'  or affirmation). The same PS word appears in that much maligned -- 
since WWII -- term 'swastika' ('mark of well-being'').

metta, Joe

________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 16
>    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: pali question
>
>Dear Joe,
>Welcome to the group! We are expecially glad to have
>someone who studied with Khun Sujin in the past. Your
>pali questions are way beyond me but I found your
>reasoning sound (if it is right I don't know). .
> > I'm guessing
> > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt,
> > meaning worldly
> > goals/concerns). .
>
>paramattha is carefully defined in the ancient
>commentaries and it means ultimate or fundamental.
>I guess Amara might have some ideas on this. It is
>often compared with pannati, concept and samutti,
>conventional. Only citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana
>are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities.
>Robert
>
>
>
>
> >
> > The reason I'd like to find out is that I'm having a
> > discussion with
> > an editor about the proper translation of
> > Siddhartha/Siddhattha. The
> > modern (possibly revisionist?) Theravada translation
> > of Siddhartha
> > is 'One who has succeeded in (or perfected) his
> > goal'. However I
> > think a better translation might be one that makes
> > it clear that
> > attha/artha refers to worldly, rather than
> > spiritual, goals (such
> > as 'One who has attained perfect material success').
> > The latter
> > interpretation makes sense in light of his parents'
> > alleged wishes
> > for him, and also in the general Brahmanist context
> > of the times in
> > with Siddhartha was born, when artha or
> > wealth/property was
> > considered one of the four main human objectives
> > mandated by the
> > Vedas. I've found other examples to support my claim
> > that attha/artha
> > specifically refers to material or worldly issues,
> > but my editor, who
> > is Pali-knowledgable and a former Buddhist monk,
> > would like to see
> > another example or two. Obivously I'm wondering if
> > paramattha is one
> > example I could use.
> >
> > Thanks very much.
> >
> > metta, Joe
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>Message: 17
>    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:02:44 -0000
>    From: "amara chay" 
>Subject: Re: pali question
>
>
>
> > Here's the question. Can anyone tell me the exact Pali etymology
> > of 'paramattha'? My Sanskrit has always been stronger than my Pali,
> > but I have neither dictionary with me at the moment. I'm guessing
> > it's para (beyond) + attha (or artha in Skrt, meaning worldly
> > goals/concerns). I know there are other meanings for attha, so just
> > want to get the right one.
>
>
>Hi!
>
>Parama means great, supreme, thorough, and attha, as you know may
>mean several things: the meaning, the essence, the goal, as you said,
>so in fact paramatthadhamma means the ultimate essence of the truth,
>in other words 'absolute reality', as we say in our classes.
>
>I would suspect that the use of the word attha here would be
>different from the use in the name Siddhattha because here attha is
>obviously the goal, and the name would be more or less one who
>attains his goal, as your editor says, without necessarily
>specifying whether it is material or not.  Not that I'm Pali
>knowledgeable or anything, I just have a friend who is!
>
>I rather think I agree with your editor, because when the brahmins
>predicted his future at his birth, they all said he would rule the
>world (or something to that effect) either in the worldly or the
>religious sense, except for the last branmin who specified uniquely
>the religious.  In this light I think his parents would have named
>him auspiciously to succeed in either of his goals, no matter which
>he happened to choose.
>
>But that is my personal opinion which in no way reflect that of this
>group, hope it was of some use,
>
>Amara

 
1242 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:14pm
Subject: time & path

 
  Hi Sarah

Nice to be back in touch with the Dhamma Study Group. You've asked for a 
little history, so here goes. I made the initial decision to visit Thailand 
after reading Towards The Truth by Aj. Buddhadasa in 1970. I must have 
re-read that book 15 times that year. After I finished college and worked 
for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I 
attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this 
group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout 
that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon 
Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall 
correctly) lived. I didn't really socialise with anyone in the DSG, or even 
speak with them much outside the discussions, and unfortunately can't 
remember anyone's names (though Jonothan Abbot sure rings a bell -- could 
he have been the ex-monk?). I sometimes rode to the meetings with an 
American woman named Nina, and sometimes with farang monks from Wat Bowon. 
That same year I was participating in weekly meditation practice with Phra 
Khantipalo and the Rawng Sangkharaat at Wat Bowon, altogether quite a 
commute for a young man living near Wong Wian Yai in Thonburi and teaching 
English at King Mongkut's Institute of Technology in Bang Mot Monday 
through Friday!

I returned to the US in 1978 to pursue an MA at the University of 
California, focusing on Thai language and Buddhism. For my final thesis I 
returned to Thailand in early 1981 and translated two of Aj. Buddhadasa's 
books, Emptiness-Empty Mind and Nibbanna: Life's Destination. I started 
sitting in Mahasi Sayadaw-style retreats that same year and found myself, 
for lack of a better way to describe it, 'nailed to the path'. I must 
confess that despite attending Ajahn Sujin's (I can't help but address her 
as 'ajahn', per Thai custom) discussions in 1977 and meditating at Wat 
Bowon, the apprehension of 'nama - rupa' remained largely academic for me 
until I participated in my first intensive retreat, under Sayadaw U 
Silananda, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw's, in Monte Rio, California. I'm not 
saying the practice or the retreats precipitated the arising of sati; 
obviously the accumulations were ripe at that particular time. But it felt 
like a very natural sequence of events. It was also in 1981 that I found a 
livelihood that has allowed me to travel extensively in Buddhist lands, 
which seems to have been a necessity (for me) in shoring up saddha.

 From 1981 forwards I spent four to eight months a year in Thailand and 
Burma, and, beginning in 1989, I added Laos to the circuit. Along the way I 
met and accepted teachings from a number of monks and meditation teachers 
in each of these countries. I find it difficult to talk about the 
experiences that have occurred during this wandering phase (which is far 
from over!). Of course there's not really much to say that's relevant to 
anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told 
conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of 
my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I 
think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further 
away). Thailand is my home base, though I continue to travel a lot and have 
a house in Mexico, where Theravada has been taking root only over the last 
decade.

This past year the path has felt firmer, perhaps because I spent much of it 
writing a book about Buddhist stupas, and have been considering the role of 
architecture in the preservation of dhamma (if that sounds weird you'll 
just have to read the book for an explanation!). Reading and writing about 
Buddhism -- however misguided the writing may sometimes be -- helps with 
attention to the path.

And this year I've rediscovered your dhamma study group. I'm extremely 
impressed by the facility with which you all can discuss the dhammas. I 
find myself nodding my head in experiential confirmation, while knowing I 
couldn't begin to explain many of these things myself. I haven't been the 
most diligent or efficient dhamma student, but if there's a pace to it all 
it seems natural. I don't know what the Abhidhamma has to say about it, but 
I concluded a while back that a certain measure of nibbida must continually 
occur to keep one moving along the path, and it ebbs and flows. One forgets 
to learn, and ignores many opportunities for understanding, until nibbida 
brings one back.

Stay tuned as the accumulations deal further with the entanglements. Sorry 
if this is more than you wanted to know, Sarah!  I don't know if any of 
it's relevant to anyone else, but I'd be interested to hear your 
story-in-progress, and everyone else's, as time and will permits.

metta, Joe



Message: 23
>    Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:44:16 CST
>    From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
>Subject: welcome joe
>
>Dear Joe,
>
>welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any
>protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like an
>exotic buffet at the moment...
>
>Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There are a
>few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be interesting
>to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you
>feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'?
>
>I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did encourage
>me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you!
>
>Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime!
>
>Sarah

 

1243

From: A T <axtran@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:45am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
Dear Robert,

Another wonderful post! This one explains very clearly how to give 
praises and how to accept them.

Thank you for your compassion when explaining and analysing in our 
discussions.

Anumodana,
Alex
====================================
>From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear Mike,
>--- "m. nease" <mlnease@y...> wrote: >
> > --- >
> > (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance)
> > is
> > only khanti if it arises in reaction to something
> > that
> > might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not
> > lobha.
>
>Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be
>developed toward pleasant things too. This is often
>overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when we
>are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors
>ae guarded.
>
>
> > >
> > (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving
> > for
> > the arising of either of these parami? If there is,
> > I'd very much like to know how to go about it. But
> > in
> > fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in
> > the
> > present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
> > arise?
>
>Nina van gorkom has wriiten a book on the parami - I
>think amara will put it on the web one day.
>
> >
> > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
>heaven". The Buddha said gains and praise are so dire
>so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who was
>overcome by them.
>However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
>of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of it
>this is not our concern really. It is like giving- if
>you are so worried that the person you give to might
>not use the gift in the right way you might never
>give.
>Of course if you know that praise will definitely
>spoil the person then don't praise.
>If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
>akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them to
>like you. It can be done from wrong view- example some
>people praise their deluded teachers so much(think of
>cults).
>robert

	
1244

From: <axtran@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 3:57am
Subject: Re: time & path

 	
Dear Joe,

Wow, I'm very impressed with your experience and knowledge. I'm 
looking forward to learn a lot from you. Was your Master degree 
related to linguistics? The way you analyze words reminds me of that 
field.

Thank you for being with us,
Alex Tran
	
1245

From: m. nease <mlnease@y...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:41am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
<robertkirkpatrick@r...> wrote:

> Khun sujin has often said that khanti has to be
> developed toward pleasant things too. This is often
> overlooked (especially by me). We are patient when
> we
> are not hooked by the pleasant, when the sense doors
> are guarded.

Dear Robert,

Thanks for this excellent response. It occurred to me
this morning that the desire for praise is a
particularly unwholesome one, since gratification of
that desire directly conditions or strengthens
sakkayaditthi--the worst thing that can happen! I
wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more likely,
for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa than
moha...

> > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
> heaven". 

What a great expression!

> The Buddha said gains and praise are so
> dire
> so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who
> was
> overcome by them.

So, presumably, the important thing is to try to
clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or
frustration when they arise (if possible), or to
understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect?

> However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
> of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of
> it
> this is not our concern really. It is like giving-

Of course... 

> if
> you are so worried that the person you give to might
> not use the gift in the right way you might never
> give.

Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana,
or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four
quarters, for example, has on the external world, but
rather the the result of that intention and effort,
internally, on subsequently arising citta.

> Of course if you know that praise will definitely
> spoil the person then don't praise.

Clearly, intention is the issue.

> If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
> akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them
> to
> like you. It can be done from wrong view- example
> some
> people praise their deluded teachers so much (think
> of
> cults).

Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
(unintentional) delusion.

Well, sorry if I keep 'praising' your posts...! But
as you said, it isn't all akusala...

Thank you again, sir...

mn 



	

	
1247

From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 5:46am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
sorry about the last post I inadvertently sent off before
writing anything.
Dear mike,

--- > Dear Robert,
> 
> Thanks for this excellent response. It occurred to me
> this morning that the desire for praise is a
> particularly unwholesome one, since gratification of
> that desire directly conditions or strengthens
> sakkayaditthi--the worst thing that can happen! 

sakkyaditthi supports the desire for praise so much! Praise, of
itself is of so little use- you can't eat it, drink it, drive
it, or kiss it but it sure makes SElf feel good. 
> 
!
> 
> > The Buddha said gains and praise are so
> > dire
> > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who
> > was
> > overcome by them.
> 
> So, presumably, the important thing is to try to
> clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or
> frustration when they arise (if possible), or to
> understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect?

Yes, if we are very happy about being praised for sure it is
lobha. I would guess that when khun sujin is praised she is
sometimes happy if the praise shows the student is understanding
some difficult dhamma point. She seems very neutral if praise
is given and the understanding is absent. When we understand in
retrospect it can be useful- it is understanding at the level of
consideration. If we understand it as it arises so much the
better.
> 
> 
> 
> > if
> > you are so worried that the person you give to might
> > not use the gift in the right way you might never
> > give.
> 
> Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana,
> or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four
> quarters, for example, has on the external world, but
> rather the the result of that intention and effort,
> internally, on subsequently arising citta.

Did you know that when the buddha came down the jewelled
staircase from the tavitimsa deva world after having preached
abhidhamma there that almost all the beings who saw his glory
that day had lobha. Even the Buddha cannot so easily condition
the cittas of others to be kusala. Only the Dhamma properly
taught in sufficient detail can help us to understand these
difficult matters.
> 
> > Of course if you know that praise will definitely
> > spoil the person then don't praise.
> 
> Clearly, intention is the issue.
> 
> > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
> > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them
> > to
> > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example
> > some
> > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think
> > of
> > cults).
> 
> Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> (unintentional) delusion.
> 
In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala
cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for
example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but who
teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your teaching
about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech
(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. It
may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha
(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same teacher
happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him
"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may be
genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately
after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt
almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi
always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as
do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana.
When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life we
mean any intention that wants what is good for others and
ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and
ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha dhammas
as they arise directly.
Robert


	
1248

From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:21pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path

 	
Dear Joe,

I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really appreciate 
all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where people 
are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and 
experience for sure!

Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same 
Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language 
school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who now 
lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was supporting 
most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have occasional 
news of many of them.

Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture and 
teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope 
that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the role 
of architecture in preserving dhamma with you!

As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying with 
Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married 
since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong.
We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and 
friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet you 
and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin 
and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list group 
at the Shangrila where we'll be staying.

Delighted to have you in the group, even if we can't answer all yr Pali 
questions fully!

Sarah

When I first met K.Sujin in Sri lanka, I asked her how I should address her 
and she said just call me Sujin or Khun Sujin so it stuck for me. Most 
others use the more respectful Ajahn, especially the Thais...whatever you 
are comfortable with...

>
>Hi Sarah
>
>Nice to be back in touch with the Dhamma Study Group. You've asked for a
>little history, so here goes. I made the initial decision to visit Thailand
>after reading Towards The Truth by Aj. Buddhadasa in 1970. I must have
>re-read that book 15 times that year. After I finished college and worked
>for a couple of years, I finally made it to Thailand in early 1977. I
>attended Ajahn Sujin's (as everyone called her back then; I see in this
>group she's plain 'Khun Sujin') dhamma discussions sporadically throughout
>that year. The discussions took place in a house on a soi off Thanon Sathon
>Tai, where a British man who had recently left the monkhood (if I recall
>correctly) lived. I didn't really socialise with anyone in the DSG, or even
>speak with them much outside the discussions, and unfortunately can't
>remember anyone's names (though Jonothan Abbot sure rings a bell -- could
>he have been the ex-monk?). I sometimes rode to the meetings with an
>American woman named Nina, and sometimes with farang monks from Wat Bowon.
>That same year I was participating in weekly meditation practice with Phra
>Khantipalo and the Rawng Sangkharaat at Wat Bowon, altogether quite a
>commute for a young man living near Wong Wian Yai in Thonburi and teaching
>English at King Mongkut's Institute of Technology in Bang Mot Monday
>through Friday!
>
>I returned to the US in 1978 to pursue an MA at the University of
>California, focusing on Thai language and Buddhism. For my final thesis I
>returned to Thailand in early 1981 and translated two of Aj. Buddhadasa's
>books, Emptiness-Empty Mind and Nibbanna: Life's Destination. I started
>sitting in Mahasi Sayadaw-style retreats that same year and found myself,
>for lack of a better way to describe it, 'nailed to the path'. I must
>confess that despite attending Ajahn Sujin's (I can't help but address her
>as 'ajahn', per Thai custom) discussions in 1977 and meditating at Wat
>Bowon, the apprehension of 'nama - rupa' remained largely academic for me
>until I participated in my first intensive retreat, under Sayadaw U
>Silananda, a student of Mahasi Sayadaw's, in Monte Rio, California. I'm not
>saying the practice or the retreats precipitated the arising of sati;
>obviously the accumulations were ripe at that particular time. But it felt
>like a very natural sequence of events. It was also in 1981 that I found a
>livelihood that has allowed me to travel extensively in Buddhist lands,
>which seems to have been a necessity (for me) in shoring up saddha.
>
> From 1981 forwards I spent four to eight months a year in Thailand and
>Burma, and, beginning in 1989, I added Laos to the circuit. Along the way I
>met and accepted teachings from a number of monks and meditation teachers
>in each of these countries. I find it difficult to talk about the
>experiences that have occurred during this wandering phase (which is far
>from over!). Of course there's not really much to say that's relevant to
>anyone else. The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image which I'm told
>conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha (as you can see, one of
>my peccadillos is a penchant for investigating language -- sometimes I
>think this brings sacca closer, at other times perhaps it pushes it further
>away). Thailand is my home base, though I continue to travel a lot and have
>a house in Mexico, where Theravada has been taking root only over the last
>decade.
>
>This past year the path has felt firmer, perhaps because I spent much of it
>writing a book about Buddhist stupas, and have been considering the role of
>architecture in the preservation of dhamma (if that sounds weird you'll
>just have to read the book for an explanation!). Reading and writing about
>Buddhism -- however misguided the writing may sometimes be -- helps with
>attention to the path.
>
>And this year I've rediscovered your dhamma study group. I'm extremely
>impressed by the facility with which you all can discuss the dhammas. I
>find myself nodding my head in experiential confirmation, while knowing I
>couldn't begin to explain many of these things myself. I haven't been the
>most diligent or efficient dhamma student, but if there's a pace to it all
>it seems natural. I don't know what the Abhidhamma has to say about it, but
>I concluded a while back that a certain measure of nibbida must continually
>occur to keep one moving along the path, and it ebbs and flows. One forgets
>to learn, and ignores many opportunities for understanding, until nibbida
>brings one back.
>
>Stay tuned as the accumulations deal further with the entanglements. Sorry
>if this is more than you wanted to know, Sarah! I don't know if any of
>it's relevant to anyone else, but I'd be interested to hear your
>story-in-progress, and everyone else's, as time and will permits.
>
>metta, Joe
>
>
>
>Message: 23
> > Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:44:16 CST
> > From: "Sarah Procter Abbott" <sarahhk@h...>
> >Subject: welcome joe
> >
> >Dear Joe,
> >
> >welcome to the group! No questions releated to the dhamma break any
> >protocol. We all welcome the variety of topics. In fact it's rather like 
>an
> >exotic buffet at the moment...
> >
> >Do you remember when you studied (occasionally) with Khun Sujin? There 
>are a
> >few members here that also go a very long way back. It would be 
>interesting
> >to hear a little more about yr winding path since and experiences if you
> >feel inclined to share them... What in particular has 'stuck'?
> >
> >I'm sorry I can't add to Amara's or Robert's answers, but you did 
>encourage
> >me to pull out a couple of pali dictionaries for which I thank you!
> >
> >Pls keep in touch on or off topic anytime!
> >
> >Sarah
>


	
1250

From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala <beyugala@k...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 6:54am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke

 	
Dear Robert,
It was so wonderful having you visit with us and even better still to read
your letters. I've begun to save some of the ones I think are quite good
(lobha).

But why do you call Paticcasamupada a "theory" since it is reality and not a
theory as such?

with metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
beyugala@k...





----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
To: <dhammastudygroup@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke


> Robert wrote "Moreover sati and sampajjana can arise
> before the
> > > nivarana of sense desire arises.
> > > Panna can
> > > understand
> > > visible object as simply rupa - if it does then :
> > > "On
> > > seeing a visible object with
> > > > > the
> > > > > eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the
> > > > > particulars through which if he left the eye
> > > > > faculty
> > > > > unguarded,
> >
> > [...by appamatta, I think...]
> >
> > > > > evil an unprofitable states of
> > > > > covetnousness and grief might invade him, he
> > > > > enters
> > > > > upon the way of its restraint..."
> >
> > Mike wrote "Yes. If sampajanna arises after
> 'feeling' before
> > 'desire', then, no desire, so, no clinging, so, no
> > becoming.'--?"
> Dear Mike,
> You are trying to fit the theoretical understanding of
> paticusamupada into the actual experience. Nothing
> wrong with that - we can see this to some extent.
> However, remember that sati does not have to take
> feeling as an object. It could have taken
> rupa(color)instead. Feeling arises at every moment. At
> the moment of seeing there always only neutral
> feeling, any pleasant or unpleasant feeling arises
> later. You said "arises after feeling before desire"
> (and I said "sati and sampajjana can arise before the
> > > nivarana of sense desire arises ")but in reality
> it is happening so fast that any idea of time sequence
> is just an idea, a concept based on what we have
> heard. We can understand someting of this process but
> it may be counterproductive if we try to force the
> the theory into the actual moments.
>
> Mike wrote "...as I understand it, this could be
> paraphrased,
> 'visual conciousness arises dependent on contact
> between eye and visible form (pretty-woman-rupa),
> pleasant feeling arises dependent on (this) contact,
> desire (for continuation and increase of pleasant
> feeling) arises dependent on pleasant feeling,
> clinging (identification with desire) arises dependent
> on desire, 'becoming' (the illusion of self--'I
> desire') arises dependent on clinging--so, the
> contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming piece of
> paticcasamuppada. Does this sound about right?"
>
> It is more or less like this. (rememeber no pretty
> woman- only colors ).Just for those who might think
> this sounds relatively simple (I know you don't think
> this mm!) we should understand that these processes
> are being repeated billions of times a second. How
> much we really see of it all (directly) depends on the
> level of panna that has acumulated.
>
> Still the more we learn about the theory of
> paticusamupadda the more it conditions investigation
> into it in daily life- and that can't be bad.
> Robert
> (can't be bad -unless it is done with lobha)
>
>
>
>

	
1251

From: A T <axtran@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
Dear Robert,

Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and the receiver 
are worthy? I heard that it's something like:

1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy.
2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is.
3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not.
4. Less than "so so": both are not.

Thanks,
AT

> > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> > (unintentional) delusion.
> >
>In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala
>cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for
>example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but who
>teaches satipatthana wrongly) 'how wonderful is your teaching
>about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech
>(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi. It
>may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha
>(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same teacher
>happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him
>"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may be
>genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately
>after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt
>almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi
>always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling - as
>do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana.
>When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life we
>mean any intention that wants what is good for others and
>ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and
>ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha dhammas
>as they arise directly.
>Robert
>

	
1252

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:38am
Subject: Re: Maggha citta

 	
> The book mentioned that Maggha Citta (not with Jhana citta) may 
arise 
> with either Somanassa Vedana or Upecha Vedana, corresponding 
directly 
> to the vedana arising with the maha-kusala citta that precedes it. 
> For 
> example, if maha-kusala citta preceding it arises with Somanassa, 
the 
> Maggha citta also arises with Somanassa. 
> 
> The book then proceeds to say that even when the Maggha citta can 
be 
> classified as either as being ajhana, or jhana. If it is classified
> as jhana, 
> then it is in the same category as the meggha citta following the
> first rupa 
> jhana citta. 
> 
> However, the Maggha citta that follows the first rupa jhana citta
> will 
> certainly have Somanassa vedana and piti as jhana factors, whereas 
> Maggha citta following the maha-kusala citta with Upecha will have 
> Upecha as vedana, and will have no piti as a factor. How do you
> reconcile 
> these two seemingly inconsistent statements?


Dear friends,

I just got back from another strange day with a lot of kusala vipaka 
followed by considerable akusala vipaka, in the company of Tan 
Achaan Sujin and her sisters, therefore it was interposed with 
dhamma studies throughout! (This really tested the sapaya for me!) 
But before I forget our rather complicated issue of the magga citta, 
I would like to address the problem first:

As you know (and those who don't might like to read 'Summary of 
Paramatthadhamma Part VII' on our site <http://www.DhammaStudy.com>, 
advanced section ) there are several levels of jhana from the 
rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta to the 
nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana which is the higest level, with the 
sublevel defined by the 'elements of jhana'. But, as said towards 
the end of the chapter:

Before the enlightenment of the Buddha, there were people who 
developed samatha-bhavana to the attainment of 
nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and trained the citta until they 
acquired supernatural powers of sight, hearing, recalling past 
lives and the ability to perform miracles. Still, they were unable 
to realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma since they had not developed the 
cause, namely vipassana-bhavana, to perfection to be paccaya for the 
realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. And some continue to have 
wrong view and cling to practices that do not lead to the 
realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma even after the Buddha had 
become enlightened and manifested the dhamma and among those who 
realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma and became the ariya-savaka, there 
are more who had not attained jhana-citta with the principal 
elements of jhana, than those who had (Samyuttanikaya Sagathavagga 
Vangisasamyutta Pavaranasutta 745). (End quote.)

Even after the most arduous practices could not get rid of kilesa, 
only repress it (by developing kusala citta until the mind is so 
steadfast in the aramana that the jhana citta arises, with complete 
peace from kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha,) in other words, those 
with even the nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana could not attain even 
the lowest nana of vipassana, namely nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, the 
first of the 16 leading to the state of the sotapanna. Still, for 
those who had attained the jhana citta before vipassana attainments 
would experience the same jhana levels as those without vipassana, 
except that with nibbana as aramana, the magga citta and bala citta 
would have the eight cetasika of the eightfold path arising at the 
moment and the virati, all three at once together, (which as you 
know only arise with the magga citta,) would perform the function or 
completely eradicating the cetasika that is the kilesa completely 
extinguished at that level (at the sotapanna level the vicikiccha 
for example would be completely eradicated, no more even anusaya 
left, in fact we could say there would be fewer than the normal 52 
left, and fewer as higher levels of attainments are reached, until 
at the level of the Arahanta, all kilesa are completely eradicated, 
never to arise again in samsara). Note: the levels of attainment do 
not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had attained 
only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana 
but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has 
the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we 
remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, 
so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and 
akusala could probably do it). Also: since the vipassana 
attainments completely eradicates respective levels of kilesa, the 
jhana accompanied by nana is much more peaceful than those without 
(tranquility exempt from kilesa momentarily vs. permanently)

Then there are those (in fact the majority, since conditions 
required for the samatha practice are so very difficult to fulfill) 
who 'practice' only vipassana, but since the citta with nibbana or 
even the aramana of the nana citta of the lowest level of vipassana 
is so steadfast, and exempt from lobha, dosa and moha so completely 
that it reaches the same level of jhana as the first level of jhana 
citta without ever having to practice samatha. In other words even 
the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana would be as steadfast and exempt for 
kilesa as the first level of jhana automatically. At that moment 
the vedana would be as you said, somanassa or upekkha, depending. 
Which means although that level of nana is of peacefulness the 
equivalent of the jhana citta, it no longer follows the rule of the 
jhana citta because there is no samatha practice involved. By the 
way she says that the somanassa comes from the joy of reaching that 
level of knowledge.

She and Khun Jeed are very glad that 'Nong C' is so steadfast in 
studying the dhamma, by the way, and remember you and your group 
very well, you have the reputation of serious students!

Thank you for forcing me to learn about the jhana citta, something I 
used to think has nothing to do with vipassana and therefore 
uninteresting, before! Anumodana,

Amara
	
1253

From: Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@r...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 7:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sila/satipatthana/karaoke

 	
--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" <beyugala@k...> wrote: >
Dear Robert,
> > 
> But why do you call Paticcasamupada a "theory" since it is
> reality and not a
> theory as such?
> 
Dear betty,
Great to hear from you! Even trying to understand the
paticcasampuda intellectually I find most challenging. It is
still a theory to the extent that we have not/do not see/seen it
directly. As wisdom develops the gap between experience and
theory closes. 
Robert

	
1254

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:25am
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
I
> wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more likely,
> for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa than
> moha...


Dear Mike,

I would not be fair if I did not tell you what she also said that 
day, but I almost wish I didn't have to tell you because all this 
has been such interesting reading! She also said that one would 
know whom one might praise without spoiling, for example the Budhha 
and such. In fact kind and true words of sincere praise would 
certainly not be accompanied by akusala cetana! The person who says 
it would not be responsible for the receiver's akusala 
accumulations: that they feel elated, pleased, embarrassed, sad or 
angry at praise (or blame, for that matter,) is their own 'self' 
having a reaction, the vipaka is only through the five dvara just 
like anything else. It's their lobha or dosa that arises in the 
javana according to conditions which include their accumulations... 
And it is better to know this than to have delusions that we are 
selfless and beyond these effects, as well as to keep in mind that 
the axe could also come from above! Thank you for all your 
sincere 'ma'am's, sir!

Amara

> > > Khun sujin calls praise "the axe that falls from
> > heaven". 
> 
> What a great expression!
> 
> > The Buddha said gains and praise are so
> > dire
> > so dangerous etc. etc. pointing out devadatta who
> > was
> > overcome by them.
> 
> So, presumably, the important thing is to try to
> clearly comprehend the desire and its gratification or
> frustration when they arise (if possible), or to
> understand the nature of those arisings in retrospect?
> 
> > However, it is kusala to praise those who are worthy
> > of praise. If they have akusala- lobha- because of
> > it
> > this is not our concern really. It is like giving-
> 
> Of course... 
> 
> > if
> > you are so worried that the person you give to might
> > not use the gift in the right way you might never
> > give.
> 
> Yes--the point is, I think, not the effect that dana,
> or the deliberate arousing of mettaa to the four
> quarters, for example, has on the external world, but
> rather the the result of that intention and effort,
> internally, on subsequently arising citta.
> 
> > Of course if you know that praise will definitely
> > spoil the person then don't praise.
> 
> Clearly, intention is the issue.
> 
> > If you praise someone who doesn't deserve it this is
> > akusala. It can be done from lobha - you want them
> > to
> > like you. It can be done from wrong view- example
> > some
> > people praise their deluded teachers so much (think
> > of
> > cults).
> 
> Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> (unintentional) delusion.
> 
> Well, sorry if I keep 'praising' your posts...! But
> as you said, it isn't all akusala...
> 
> Thank you again, sir...
> 
> mn 
> 
> 

	
1255

From: m. nease <mlnease@y...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
--- amara chay <joychay@h...> wrote:

> I
> > wonder if, for Khun Sujin, praise isn't more
> likely,
> > for this reason, to condition the arising of dosa
> than
> > moha...

Welcome back, Amara!

What I MEANT to say above was, "...arising of dosa
than LOBHA..."--not moha--in reference to my
misunderstanding of the nature of khanti. My
speculation has already been corrected in various
ways, thank you very much for your additions.

>
> 
> Dear Mike,
> 
> I would not be fair if I did not tell you what she
> also said that 
> day, but I almost wish I didn't have to tell you
> because all this 
> has been such interesting reading! She also said
> that one would 
> know whom one might praise without spoiling, for
> example the Budhha 
> and such. In fact kind and true words of sincere
> praise would 
> certainly not be accompanied by akusala cetana! The
> person who says 
> it would not be responsible for the receiver's
> akusala 
> accumulations: that they feel elated, pleased,
> embarrassed, sad or 
> angry at praise (or blame, for that matter,) is
> their own 'self' 
> having a reaction, the vipaka is only through the
> five dvara just 
> like anything else. It's their lobha or dosa that
> arises in the 
> javana according to conditions which include their
> accumulations... 
> And it is better to know this than to have delusions
> that we are 
> selfless and beyond these effects, as well as to
> keep in mind that 
> the axe could also come from above! Thank you for
> all your 
> sincere 'ma'am's, sir!

Always a pleasure, ma'am!

mn


	
1256

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:36am
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 	
> Welcome back, Amara!


Dear Mike,

Thank you, and good bye again, I'm leaving very early tomorrow and 
might not be back until the day after!

'See' you all again soon,

Amara
	
1257

From: amara chay <joychay@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 10:29am
Subject: Re: Maggha citta

 	
Dear Group,

I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a mistake, 
or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence,

Note: the levels of attainment do 
> not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had 
attained 
> only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana 
> but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has 
> the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we 
> remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's 
time, 
> so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and 
> akusala could probably do it).

there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: 
or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not even a 
sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from long 
befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the difference 
between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have the 
acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana.

Sorry for my usual carelessness,

Amara
	
1258

From: Sarah Procter Abbott <sarahhk@h...> 
Date: Wed Oct 18, 2000 2:43pm
Subject: Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise

 	
Dear Mike,

I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these comments if I'm just 
repeating. Sometimes I start a message, get called away and find it's been 
answered much better by someone else before i get back to it!

The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as sediment before those 
bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many different conditions. 
One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) whereby citta and cetasikas 
would support each other or the 4 elements would 'prop' each other up. 
Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). Simultaneous with one 
reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for instance, in one and the 
same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and vinnana is for the other 3 
khandhas a condition by way of sahajata. So it goes on. More condtions help 
explain why any given reality arises at any time.

Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and it's rather like asking 
whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes!

As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the accumulation at the 
present moment. In other words, the more precise the understanding and 
awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa vedana at this moment, the 
more the understanding understands its anattaness, its conditioned nature. A 
moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another moment of somanassa vedana 
by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Of course, as we know, 
only the Buddha can fully understand all the conditions of realities. 
However, we shouldn't underestimate the power of panna when it begins to 
grow...even intellectually in the beginning.

Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about paticca 
samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite a while, but 
I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as though it were 
an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then clinging, then 
feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas arising 
together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, ignorance with 
all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!

I may just be repeating the obvious in this post, but there are some good 
intentions!

Just one comment on the praise topic. It is the intention that's important 
as you say. However, it can be a little like the giving thing...there's wise 
and unwise giving. It's not always appropriate to give a kid a lolly and so 
on. I notice with my students that I tend to use more praise with those 
lacking in confidence and struggling and less with those who are already 
over confident and need a bit more 'dressing down'...Only the Buddha gets it 
right all the time and knows what is appropriate to say to whom when....but 
it's useful to consider what is really in the other's best interests.... 
Sometimes this may be keeping quiet!


If the list has brought back a smile to your face, it's serving its 
purpose....the dhamma should make life easier and not harder! Don't go 
getting a chill when you step into that snow without yr clothes on!

best wishes,
Sarah

>Dear Amara,
>
>So: The cetasika are not actually accumulated, or
>conditioned (in the same sense that the citta
>are)--they become active dependent on the
>accumulations of the (past and present) citta--is this
>right?
>
>Sorry if I'm misstating this or restating something
>obvious. This is all pretty new to me, and it helps
>if I can simplify it a little.
>
>I liked the citta/computer analogy. There's also
>something in it that reminds me of genetics, but I
>can't quite put my finger on it.
>

 
1259 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:49am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Maggha citta

 
  Dear Khun Amara,

Thanks for following with Tan A. Sujin on the question.  I will relay
the information to other people in the studying group.

We are still absorbing what you said about accumulations.

Anumoddhana.

kom
--- amara chay  wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> I just got back from another strange day with a lot of kusala vipaka 
> followed by considerable akusala vipaka, in the company of Tan 
> Achaan Sujin and her sisters, therefore it was interposed with 
> dhamma studies throughout!  (This really tested the sapaya for me!)  
> But before I forget our rather complicated issue of the magga citta, 
> I would like to address the problem first:
> 
> As you know (and those who don't might like to read 'Summary of 
> Paramatthadhamma Part VII' on our site <http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, 
> advanced section ) there are several levels of jhana from the 
> rupavacara-pathama-jhana-kusala-citta to the 
> nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana which is the higest level, with the 
> sublevel defined by the 'elements of jhana'.  But, as said towards 
> the end of the chapter:
> 
>  Before the enlightenment of the Buddha, there were people who 
> developed samatha-bhavana to the attainment of 
> nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and trained the citta until they 
> acquired supernatural powers of sight, hearing,  recalling past 
> lives and the ability to perform miracles.  Still, they were unable 
> to realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma since they had not developed the 
> cause, namely vipassana-bhavana, to perfection to be paccaya for the 
> realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma.  And some continue to have 
> wrong view and cling to practices that do not lead to the 
> realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma even after the Buddha had 
> become enlightened and manifested the dhamma and among those who 
> realized the ariya-sacca-dhamma and became the ariya-savaka, there 
> are more who had not attained jhana-citta with the principal 
> elements of jhana, than those who had (Samyuttanikaya Sagathavagga 
> Vangisasamyutta Pavaranasutta 745).  (End quote.)
> 
> Even after the most arduous practices could not get rid of kilesa, 
> only repress it (by developing kusala citta until the mind is so 
> steadfast in the aramana that the jhana citta arises, with complete 
> peace from kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha,) in other words, those 
> with even the nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana could not attain even 
> the lowest nana of vipassana, namely nama-rupa-paricheda-nana, the 
> first of the 16 leading to the state of the sotapanna.  Still, for 
> those who had attained the jhana citta before vipassana attainments 
> would experience the same jhana levels as those without vipassana, 
> except that with nibbana as aramana, the magga citta and bala citta 
> would have the eight cetasika of the eightfold path arising at the 
> moment and the virati, all three at once together, (which as you 
> know only arise with the magga citta,) would perform the function or 
> completely eradicating the cetasika that is the kilesa completely 
> extinguished at that level (at the sotapanna level the vicikiccha 
> for example would be completely eradicated, no more even anusaya 
> left, in fact we could say there would be fewer than the normal 52 
> left, and fewer as higher levels of attainments are reached, until 
> at the level of the Arahanta, all kilesa are completely eradicated, 
> never to arise again in samsara).  Note: the levels of attainment do 
> not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had attained 
> only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of jhana 
> but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person who has 
> the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in fact we 
> remember that this practice comes from long befor the Buddha's time, 
> so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala and 
> akusala could probably do it).  Also: since the vipassana 
> attainments completely eradicates respective levels of kilesa, the 
> jhana accompanied by nana is much more peaceful than those without 
> (tranquility exempt from kilesa momentarily vs. permanently)
> 
> Then there are those (in fact the majority, since conditions 
> required for the samatha practice are so very difficult to fulfill) 
> who 'practice' only vipassana, but since the citta with nibbana or 
> even the aramana of the nana citta of the lowest level of vipassana 
> is so steadfast, and exempt from lobha, dosa and moha so completely 
> that it reaches the same level of jhana as the first level of jhana 
> citta without ever having to practice samatha.  In other words even 
> the nama-rupa-paricheda-nana would be as steadfast and exempt for 
> kilesa as the first level of jhana automatically.  At that moment 
> the vedana would be as you said, somanassa or upekkha, depending.  
> Which means although that level of nana is of peacefulness the 
> equivalent of the jhana citta, it no longer follows the rule of the 
> jhana citta because there is no samatha practice involved.  By the 
> way she says that the somanassa comes from the joy of reaching that 
> level of knowledge.
> 
> She and Khun Jeed are very glad that 'Nong C' is so steadfast in 
> studying the dhamma, by the way, and remember you and your group 
> very well, you have the reputation of serious students!
> 
> Thank you for forcing me to learn about the jhana citta, something I 
> used to think has nothing to do with vipassana and therefore 
> uninteresting, before! Anumodana,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
1260 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:06am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for bringing up the subject of paticca samuppada: it gives me
another glimpse of understanding.   As it is, paticca 
samuppada can be used to explain series of citta arising now.  It can
be used to explain dispersed series of citta through last life, this
life, and next life.  And finally, it can be used to explain just a
single citta at this moment.

I never could understand how it can be used to explain a single citta,
as the beginning of paticca samuppada wheel is Avijja, a cetasika not
arising with any other citta except Akusalas.  However, with Khun
Amera's recent (and repeated, at my request: anumoddhana for her
patience and viriya to answer the same question over an over again)
explanation about accumulations, it becomes obvious that Avijja can be
the cause of arising of current citta as the latent tendencies, Anusaya
kilesa.

Thanks again.

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:
> Dear Mike,
> 
> I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these comments if I'm
> just 
> repeating. Sometimes I start a message, get called away and find it's
> been 
> answered much better by someone else before i get back to it!
> 
> The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as sediment before
> those 
> bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many different
> conditions. 
> One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya) whereby citta and
> cetasikas 
> would support each other or the 4 elements would 'prop' each other
> up.  
> Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya).  Simultaneous with
> one 
> reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for instance, in one
> and the 
> same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and vinnana is for the
> other 3 
> khandhas a condition by way of sahajata.  So it goes on. More
> condtions help 
> explain why any given reality arises at any time.
> 
> Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and it's rather like
> asking 
> whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes!
> 
> As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the accumulation at the
> 
> present moment. In other words, the more precise the understanding
> and 
> awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa vedana at this
> moment, the 
> more the understanding understands its anattaness, its conditioned
> nature. A 
> moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another moment of somanassa
> vedana 
> by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on. Of course, as we
> know, 
> only the Buddha can fully understand all the conditions of realities.
> 
> However, we shouldn't underestimate the power of panna when it begins
> to 
> grow...even intellectually in the beginning.
> 
> Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about paticca 
> samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite a
> while, but 
> I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as though
> it were 
> an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then clinging,
> then 
> feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas arising 
> together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta, ignorance
> with 
> all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!
> 
> I may just be repeating the obvious in this post, but there are some
> good 
> intentions!
> 
> Just one comment on the praise topic. It is the intention that's
> important 
> as you say. However, it can be a little like the giving
> thing...there's wise 
> and unwise giving. It's not always appropriate to give a kid a lolly
> and so 
> on. I notice with my students that I tend to use more praise with
> those 
> lacking in confidence and struggling and less with those who are
> already 
> over confident and need a bit more 'dressing down'...Only the Buddha
> gets it 
> right all the time and knows what is appropriate to say to whom
> when....but 
> it's useful to consider what is really in the other's best
> interests.... 
> Sometimes this may be keeping quiet!
> 
> 
> If the list has brought back a smile to your face, it's serving its 
> purpose....the dhamma should make life easier and not harder! Don't
> go 
> getting a chill when you step into that snow without yr clothes on!
> 
> best wishes,
> Sarah




 
1261 From: m. nease   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:55am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise

 
  Dear Sarah,

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:

> I think Amara has said it all, so pls ignore these
> comments if I'm just 
> repeating.

Not a chance! 

> The cetasikas are accumulated even if they lie as
> sediment before those 
> bubbles appear. They become active dependent on many
> different conditions. 
> One condition is mutuality (annamanna paccaya)
> whereby citta and cetasikas 
> would support each other or the 4 elements would
> 'prop' each other up.  
> Another condition is conascence(sahajata paccaya). 
> Simultaneous with one 
> reality arising, the other must arise too. So, for
> instance, in one and the 
> same moment vedana, sanna, other cetadsikas and
> vinnana is for the other 3 
> khandhas a condition by way of sahajata.  

This is very helpful.  I've been confusing citta and
cetasika--must read more!  So, many cetasika can (and
do) arise simultaneously with each citta, but only one
citta can arise at a time (everyone, please excuse the
elementary questions and bumbling about).

> So it goes
> on. More condtions help 
> explain why any given reality arises at any time.
> 
> Kom asks whether the accumulation is detectable and
> it's rather like asking 
> whether kamma is detectable. In a way, yes!
> 
> As understanding 'penetrates' deeper, it sees the
> accumulation at the 
> present moment. In other words, the more precise the
> understanding and 
> awareness of visible object or sound or somanassa
> vedana at this moment, the 
> more the understanding understands its anattaness,
> its conditioned nature. 

Understood...

> A 
> moment of somanassa vedana triggers off another
> moment of somanassa vedana 
> by repetition condition (asevana paccaya) and so on.

Interesting!

> Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with
> Robert about paticca 
> samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had
> for quite a while, but 
> I'm not suggesting you do! 

I definitely do--or did until reading this post...

> I used to read about the
> cycle as though it were 
> an order of realities taking place. 'First
> ignorance, then clinging, then 
> feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to
> cetasikas arising 
> together at the same time. 

I did not know this!

> Feeling arises with every
> citta, ignorance with 
> all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most
> too!

I have always thought of them arising in order...  

> I may just be repeating the obvious in this post,
> but there are some good 
> intentions!

Your good intentions have paid off!  This is all new
to me--thank your!
 
> Just one comment on the praise topic. It is the
> intention that's important 
> as you say. However, it can be a little like the
> giving thing...there's wise 
> and unwise giving. It's not always appropriate to
> give a kid a lolly and so 
> on. I notice with my students that I tend to use
> more praise with those 
> lacking in confidence and struggling and less with
> those who are already 
> over confident and need a bit more 'dressing
> down'...Only the Buddha gets it 
> right all the time and knows what is appropriate to
> say to whom when....but 
> it's useful to consider what is really in the
> other's best interests.... 
> Sometimes this may be keeping quiet!

Yes, I can see that...

Thank you VERY much, Sarah.  This post has been most
helpful!  I haven't really had time to absorb all the
implications yet, but will try to digest it all after
work today.  Saadhu, Ma'am!

Anumodana,

mn



 
1262 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 7:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca & praise

 
  --- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Dear .
> 
> Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about
> paticca 
> samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite
> a while, but 
> I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as
> though it were 
> an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then
> clinging, then 
> feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas
> arising 
> together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta,
> ignorance with 
> all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!
> 
> Dear sarah,
Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the
paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with some
links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely co-nascent)
other links are  more difficult to fathom. The paticcasamupadda
is sublime because it is not only referring to the  present
moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives. 
Robert.


 
1263 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 9:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Maggha citta

 
  Just a note on this Amara,
According to my reading of the vipassana nanas: at the moment
that vipassana nana occurs the path factors, five at least, are
present and samadhi is indeed strong. However, it might not be
at the strength of jhana but rather at the the level of upacara.
The brief moments when nibbana occurs are at the strength of
jhana. 
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Group,
> 
> I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a
> mistake, 
> or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence,
> 
> Note: the levels of attainment do 
> > not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had 
> attained 
> > only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of
> jhana 
> > but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person
> who has 
> > the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in
> fact we 
> > remember that this practice comes from long befor the
> Buddha's 
> time, 
> > so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala
> and 
> > akusala could probably do it).
> 
> there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: 
> or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not
> even a 
> sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from
> long 
> befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the
> difference 
> between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have
> the 
> acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana.
> 
> Sorry for my usual carelessness,
> 
> Amara
>  
> 
> 



 
1264 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 11:00am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > 

> Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
> consciousness) to arise. These are the
> cakkhupasasada
> (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
> or contact (I forget which) and light. 


Robert

Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a query
on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have heard
of there being 3 conditions namely-

cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
phassa (= contact, a cetasika)

but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
sense-doors also, eg for hearing?

> Some people wonder about this because we are used to
> scientific explanations that classify colour as part
> of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
> eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> tiniest
> atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> fundamental
> terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
> do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
> about visible object because this is just what
> appears
> to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
> light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
> this topic, as seeing arises so often.

It has always intrigued me that although (in English,
at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
which are experienced through the ear and nose doors
(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding term
for the object experienced through the eye door. I
wonder if this is because we are so caught up in the
story of the experiences throught that doorway that we
never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' object
as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
level, distinguish between sound experienced through
the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, the
meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
speaker), this seems much more difficult in the case
of the visible object.  Even if we are given the whole
of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
difficult to come up with any meaningful description.

This highlights the degree of ignorance we have about
v-o.

Jonothan




 
1265 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 11:32am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Dear Jon,
Thanks for conditioning viriya to look these matters up! (chanda
is predominant (adhipatti) for some kusala; viriya for others,
or citta or vimamsa (investigation-panna cetasika); When it is
chanda we are keen to do it. Sometimes it takes more effort
-viriya.
--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: > 
> --- Robert Kirkpatrick
>  wrote: > 
> 
> > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
> > consciousness) to arise. These are the
> > cakkhupasasada
> > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
> > or contact (I forget which) and light. 
> 
> 
> Robert
> 
> Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a query
> on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have heard
> of there being 3 conditions namely-
> 
> cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
> vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
> phassa (= contact, a cetasika)
> 
> but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
> sense-doors also, eg for hearing?

Yes. For example, for taste to arise wetness is an aditional
factor. Usually only three are given as these are the most
important, the main ones to understand.
> 
> > Some people wonder about this because we are used to
> > scientific explanations that classify colour as part
> > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
> > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> > tiniest
> > atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> > fundamental
> > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
> > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
> > about visible object because this is just what
> > appears
> > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
> > light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
> > this topic, as seeing arises so often.
> 
>JON wrote " It has always intrigued me that although (in
English,
> at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
> which are experienced through the ear and nose doors
> (namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding term
> for the object experienced through the eye door. I
> wonder if this is because we are so caught up in the
> story of the experiences throught that doorway that we
> never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' object
> as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
> level, distinguish between sound experienced through
> the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
> unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, the
> meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
> speaker), this seems much more difficult in the case
> of the visible object.  Even if we are given the whole
> of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
> difficult to come up with any meaningful description.
> 
> This highlights the degree of ignorance we have about
> v-o.

It is vannayatana (also called rupayatana) but it is colour,only
colour, myriad different colours, thus different visible
objects. (altough perhaps not exactly the same as scientific
concepts about colour)Some people think visible object includes
form and shape but these ideas come later during the mind-door
processes. seeing is occuring now, vannayatana is arising
directly - can we "see" it? Although it can be harder to
understand in theory, for direct awareness it is not so much a
matter of difficulty as of whether sati and panna arises.

Dear jon; sorry, viriya just ran out while  i was trying to find
a reference or two. Wait awhile - perhaps the conditions for it
will arise later

Robert
> 
> 
> 
>

 
1266 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:36pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path

 
  Hi Joe,
Praising anyone doesn't come easy to me, but this is surely
due to lack of kusala citta on my part. And it is probably
with akusala citta(lobha) that I write this. I see in you, another
source of panna, who like Robert, would knock me into my
senses(I mention only Robert and not others because the few
posts that I have sent have been primarily addressed to him).
'Good medicine' tastes bitter, so please don't hesitate to speak
your mind.
On my part, I welcome you to the group.

Anumoddhana,
Sukin.

 
1267 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear alex,
Sorry for the delay in replying. If you can see this point(and
you do) you are most worthy of praise. It took me years to make
this connection. You (and mike, sukin, betty, Kom, o, leonardo)
have the ability to be able to search out and see how different
aspects of Dhamma relate. Such abilities can't be just conjured
up; this is what they call pubekkata punnata (wholesome
accumulations from past lives). 
--- A T  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
>    Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and
> the receiver 
> are worthy?  I heard that it's something like:
> 
> 1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy.
> 2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is.
> 3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not.
> 4. Less than "so so": both are not.
> 


let us examine this - it is not spelled out in the texts but by
studying the patthana and knowing how conditions work now we can
come to see that it must be like this. 
How does kamma work? We know that if a bad deed is done it will
produce its result in the future. So if I kill someone now maybe
next life I die in a car crash for example. Is kamma floating
around in space or the universe waiting for the right time to
strike and bring its unpleasant result? i had this sort of idea
about kamma. The real answer is more sophisticated and relates
to citta and cetasika.
. 

We read in the texts of someone giving to a Buddha or
pacceka-buddha and it conditions enormous benefits. Is it
because of the object or the citta that gave? Well the object is
arammana paccaya for citta. When we give to the Buddha or his
disciples it is because we have some faith in them - thus some
degree of understanding. If you met the Buddha and at the same
time there was a another religious leader standing next to the
Buddha and you gave to both with no feeling that the buddha was
teaching better - you just gave, then that citta might have
little wisdom and little sadda (an inferior type). 
When someone who has a lot of understanding gives the kusala is
even higher and they may give an even better gift- the most they
can afford. 
 Thus it must come down to the degree of kusala. We don't run
out and give a whole park to the beggar on the corner- but if it
was the Buddha we might because we understand his great virtue.
Some people give all their possesions to cult leaders but the
result of this is very poor. This is because the type of citta
that gave was not conditioned by any wisdom.

Robert
> 
> > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> > > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> > > (unintentional) delusion.
> > >
> >In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala
> >cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for
> >example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but
> who
> >teaches satipatthana wrongly)  'how wonderful is your
> teaching
> >about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech
> >(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi.
> It
> >may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha
> >(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same
> teacher
> >happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him
> >"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may
> be
> >genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately
> >after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have
> felt
> >almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi
> >always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling -
> as
> >do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana.
> >When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life
> we
> >mean any intention that wants what is good for others and
> >ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and
> >ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha
> dhammas
> >as they arise directly.
> >Robert
> >

 
1268 From: protectID 
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Robert,

To just add....

as an example,    the scenario where

1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha
2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta

(lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both instances, so the merit
regarding the size or worth wont matter)
the question is who will get more merit, or is it whether equal.

The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he knows and understands the act
of 'giving' to the maximum level.

so the right understanding of the kusala act will give more merit.



rgds
gayan

 
1269 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear gayan,
Welcome to the group. You have the sort of analytical mind -
(conditioned by pubekkata punnata )that fits well with the
discussions here. I hadn't thought about the example you gave
but now that I do I guess you must be right. Considering such
illustrations is very helpful in understanding delicate matters.
And understanding delicate matters helps us to see dhammas  as
they arise.  

Another aspect that is worth considering. Sometimes giving to
one of low merit can be highly meritorious. The bodhisatta gave
his body to a tiger. The tiger is not usually a recipient that
can condition high results but in this case it conditioned the
types of citta that support becoming a buddha. 
--- protectID wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> To just add....
> 
> as an example,    the scenario where
> 
> 1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha
> 2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta
> 
> (lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both instances, so
> the merit
> regarding the size or worth wont matter)
> the question is who will get more merit, or is it whether
> equal.
> 
> The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he knows and
> understands the act
> of 'giving' to the maximum level.
> 
> so the right understanding of the kusala act will give more
> merit.
> 
> 
> 
> rgds
> gayan
> 
> 
> 



 
1270 From: A T   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Dear Jonothan,

   I've just looked up the information in my last year Abhidhamma notes.

Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness
   1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye
   2. ruparammana: color as object
   3. aloka: light
   4. manasikara: attention

Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness
   1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear
   2. saddarammana: sound as object
   3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear
   4. manasikara: attention

Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness
   1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose
   2. gandharammana: odor as object
   3. vayodhatu: wind
   4. manasikara: attention

Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness
   1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue
   2. rasarammana: taste as object
   3. apodhatu: water
   4. manasikara: attention

Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness
   1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body
   2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, heat/cold, 
straightness/crookedness as objects.
   3. thaddhapathavi: earth
   4. manasikara: attention

Manodhatu: mind element
   1. pancadvara: 5 doors
   2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and tangibility
   3. hadayavatthu:  (English translation?)
   4. manasikara: attention

Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element
   1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga
   2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and dhamma
   3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?)
   4. manasikara: attention

Regards,
AT
=================================================
>From: Jonothan Abbott 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST)
>
>
>--- Robert Kirkpatrick
> wrote: >
>
> > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana (seeing
> > consciousness) to arise. These are the
> > cakkhupasasada
> > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa (colour)attention
> > or contact (I forget which) and light.
>
>
>Robert
>
>Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a query
>on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have heard
>of there being 3 conditions namely-
>
>cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
>vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
>phassa (= contact, a cetasika)
>
>but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
>sense-doors also, eg for hearing?
>
> > Some people wonder about this because we are used to
> > scientific explanations that classify colour as part
> > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of the
> > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> > tiniest
> > atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> > fundamental
> > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use and I
> > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually talks
> > about visible object because this is just what
> > appears
> > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour or
> > light or whatever. It is useful to know details of
> > this topic, as seeing arises so often.
>
>It has always intrigued me that although (in English,
>at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
>which are experienced through the ear and nose doors
>(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding term
>for the object experienced through the eye door. I
>wonder if this is because we are so caught up in the
>story of the experiences throught that doorway that we
>never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw' object
>as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
>level, distinguish between sound experienced through
>the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
>unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg, the
>meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
>speaker), this seems much more difficult in the case
>of the visible object.  Even if we are given the whole
>of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
>difficult to come up with any meaningful description.
>
>This highlights the degree of ignorance we have about
>v-o.
>
>Jonothan
>
>
>

 
1271 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 6:01pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Gayan

Welcome to the list, and thanks for your contribution
to this discussion.  If you feel like teling us
something about yourself, we would love to hear it!


and Group

We have recently been discussing, in relation to sila
and samatha, how similar considerations apply there,
too.  When panna is being developed, other kinds of
kusala can be of a much higher level than otherwise.

Jonothan


--- protectID wrote: > 
> 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> To just add....
> 
> as an example,    the scenario where
> 
> 1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha
> 2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta
> 
> (lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both
> instances, so the merit
> regarding the size or worth wont matter)
> the question is who will get more merit, or is it
> whether equal.
> 
> The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he
> knows and understands the act
> of 'giving' to the maximum level.
> 
> so the right understanding of the kusala act will
> give more merit.
> 
> 
> 
> rgds
> gayan
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
1272 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 6:12pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Alex

Thanks for this.  Very comprehensive.  I have a
reference to the 3-fold conditions which I will look
up when I get home.

I believe that haddayavatthu is usually translated as
heartbase (although that does not mean it is
physically located at the heart).  BTW, the terms
straightness and crookedness are new to me in this
context - would this be the same as motion and
pressure?

Jonothan


--- A T  wrote: > Dear Jonothan,
> 
>    I've just looked up the information in my last
> year Abhidhamma notes.
> 
> Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness
>    1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye
>    2. ruparammana: color as object
>    3. aloka: light
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness
>    1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear
>    2. saddarammana: sound as object
>    3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness
>    1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose
>    2. gandharammana: odor as object
>    3. vayodhatu: wind
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness
>    1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue
>    2. rasarammana: taste as object
>    3. apodhatu: water
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness
>    1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body
>    2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness,
> heat/cold, 
> straightness/crookedness as objects.
>    3. thaddhapathavi: earth
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Manodhatu: mind element
>    1. pancadvara: 5 doors
>    2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and
> tangibility
>    3. hadayavatthu:  (English translation?)
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element
>    1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga
>    2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and
> dhamma
>    3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?)
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Regards,
> AT
> =================================================
> >From: Jonothan Abbott 
> > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]
> colour/paticcasamupada
> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST)
> >
> >
> >--- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > wrote: >
> >
> > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana
> (seeing
> > > consciousness) to arise. These are the
> > > cakkhupasasada
> > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa
> (colour)attention
> > > or contact (I forget which) and light.
> >
> >
> >Robert
> >
> >Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a
> query
> >on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have
> heard
> >of there being 3 conditions namely-
> >
> >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
> >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
> >phassa (= contact, a cetasika)
> >
> >but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
> >sense-doors also, eg for hearing?
> >
> > > Some people wonder about this because we are
> used to
> > > scientific explanations that classify colour as
> part
> > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of
> the
> > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> > > tiniest
> > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> > > fundamental
> > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use
> and I
> > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually
> talks
> > > about visible object because this is just what
> > > appears
> > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour
> or
> > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details
> of
> > > this topic, as seeing arises so often.
> >
> >It has always intrigued me that although (in
> English,
> >at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
> >which are experienced through the ear and nose
> doors
> >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding
> term
> >for the object experienced through the eye door. I
> >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in
> the
> >story of the experiences throught that doorway that
> we
> >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw'
> object
> >as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
> >level, distinguish between sound experienced
> through
> >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
> >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg,
> the
> >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
> >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the
> case
> >of the visible object.  Even if we are given the
> whole
> >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
> >difficult to come up with any meaningful
> description.
> >
> >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have
> about
> >v-o.
> >
> >Jonothan
> >
> >
> >
>

 
1275 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:31am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit?

 
  Dear Sukin & friends,

I'm breaking out in a sweat here because TWICE the last post zapped off on 
its own and a longish reply I wrote got lost....now much equanimity right 
now! Anway, I apologise, i'm really not sure if its me or the computer 
playing tricks!

I was really only saying that I agreed with Robert: the rules is no rules! 
if you want to go and 'sit' or think it's useful, that's fine. If you wonder 
if you're in 2 boats or not listening to your other being..it's just 
thinking about different stories. Not Self. Sometimes we plan to do Y and 
end up doing X. Like right now, I was going to spend more time researching, 
but as I'm feeling a little frazzled, I'm going to close up and get into a 
hot bath instead!

let us know how you get on and how the 'sitting' goes....

Sarah




 
1276 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit?

 
  Dear sarah,
After Buddhaghosa finished his stupendous work the vissudhimagga
devas hid it to test him. He promptly repeated the whole work -
they hid it again. He repeated it again and then the devas
returned the first two - all were  the same. Now I am not saying
the devas were testing you  but if....?
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > Dear
Sukin & friends,
> 
> I'm breaking out in a sweat here because TWICE the last post
> zapped off on 
> its own and a longish reply I wrote got lost....now much
> equanimity right 
> now! Anway, I apologise, i'm really not sure if its me or the
> computer 
> playing tricks!
> 
> I was really only saying that I agreed with Robert: the rules
> is no rules! 
> if you want to go and 'sit' or think it's useful, that's fine.
> If you wonder 
> if you're in 2 boats or not listening to your other
> being..it's just 
> thinking about different stories. Not Self. Sometimes we plan
> to do Y and 
> end up doing X. Like right now, I was going to spend more time
> researching, 
> but as I'm feeling a little frazzled, I'm going to close up
> and get into a 
> hot bath instead!
> 
> let us know how you get on and how the 'sitting' goes....
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 
> 
> 
>


 
1277 From: A T   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:39pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  >From: Jonothan Abbott 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:12:07 +0800 (CST)
>
>Alex
>
>Thanks for this.  Very comprehensive.  I have a
>reference to the 3-fold conditions which I will look
>up when I get home.
>
>I believe that haddayavatthu is usually translated as
>heartbase (although that does not mean it is
>physically located at the heart).

  Thank you.

>BTW, the terms
>straightness and crookedness are new to me in this
>context - would this be the same as motion and
>pressure?

   Yes, it is.  It's because photthabbarammana is for tangibility (touch?).  
Our body can feel earth (hardness/softness), temparature (heat/cold), and 
wind (motion/pressure).  The wind element can straighten or bend an object.  
It's the relationship between rupa and nama.  Without this wind, we cannot 
move.

Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness
   1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body
   2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness, heat/cold,
straightness/crookedness as objects.
   3. thaddhapathavi: earth
   4. manasikara: attention

Anumodana,
Alex

 
1278 From: A T   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 4:06pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Gayan and Robert,

   The actions of an Arahant will not give result because his citta is  
kriya.  I don't think that the Buddha will get any merit.  In this example, 
Sariputta does not get merit either if at that time, he's already 
enlightened; otherwise, he will.  Well, perhaps I'm wrong as usual anyway.

   Gayan, I did not know that you're also in this group.  The internet makes 
the world very small. :-)))

Regards,
AT
=======================================
>From: protectID
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:26:38 +0600
>
>
>
>
>Dear Robert,
>
>To just add....
>
>as an example,    the scenario where
>
>1. Ven Sariputta gives a daana to Buddha
>2. The Buddha gives a daana to Ven sariputta
>
>(lets assume that the daana is of 1 unit at both instances, so the merit
>regarding the size or worth wont matter)
>the question is who will get more merit, or is it whether equal.
>
>The answer is , Buddha will get more merit, cos he knows and understands 
>the act
>of 'giving' to the maximum level.
>
>so the right understanding of the kusala act will give more merit.
>
>
>
>rgds
>gayan
>
>


 
1279 From: A T   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 3:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Robert,

   Thank you for the explanation.  So, it all depends on citta.  Therefore, 
if the giver offers something to the Buddha without realizing that the 
recipient is worthy, it's not very helpful to the giver due to his lack of 
wisdom.

   I'm going to memorize the following written by you in the previous post:

   " ... miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have felt almost the same as the 
preceeding one because miccha -ditthi always arises only with pleasant 
feeling or neutral feeling - as do all types of kusala. Very easy to be 
fooled by vedana."

because a way to recognize miccha-ditthi (or anything) is to know its 
character.

   Thank you for the praise.  I think that you are the one who's worthy.  
Your posts are very valuable to me.

Anumodana,
AT
=====================
>From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:04:57 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Dear alex,
>Sorry for the delay in replying. If you can see this point(and
>you do) you are most worthy of praise. It took me years to make
>this connection. You (and mike, sukin, betty, Kom, o, leonardo)
>have the ability to be able to search out and see how different
>aspects of Dhamma relate. Such abilities can't be just conjured
>up; this is what they call pubekkata punnata (wholesome
>accumulations from past lives).
>--- A T  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> >
> >    Is this the reason why dana is best done when the giver and
> > the receiver
> > are worthy?  I heard that it's something like:
> >
> > 1. Best: the giver and the receiver are worthy.
> > 2. Good: the giver is not, but the receiver is.
> > 3. So so: the giver is, but the receiver is not.
> > 4. Less than "so so": both are not.
> >
>
>
>let us examine this - it is not spelled out in the texts but by
>studying the patthana and knowing how conditions work now we can
>come to see that it must be like this.
>How does kamma work? We know that if a bad deed is done it will
>produce its result in the future. So if I kill someone now maybe
>next life I die in a car crash for example. Is kamma floating
>around in space or the universe waiting for the right time to
>strike and bring its unpleasant result? i had this sort of idea
>about kamma. The real answer is more sophisticated and relates
>to citta and cetasika.
>.
>
>We read in the texts of someone giving to a Buddha or
>pacceka-buddha and it conditions enormous benefits. Is it
>because of the object or the citta that gave? Well the object is
>arammana paccaya for citta. When we give to the Buddha or his
>disciples it is because we have some faith in them - thus some
>degree of understanding. If you met the Buddha and at the same
>time there was a another religious leader standing next to the
>Buddha and you gave to both with no feeling that the buddha was
>teaching better - you just gave, then that citta might have
>little wisdom and little sadda (an inferior type).
>When someone who has a lot of understanding gives the kusala is
>even higher and they may give an even better gift- the most they
>can afford.
>  Thus it must come down to the degree of kusala. We don't run
>out and give a whole park to the beggar on the corner- but if it
>was the Buddha we might because we understand his great virtue.
>Some people give all their possesions to cult leaders but the
>result of this is very poor. This is because the type of citta
>that gave was not conditioned by any wisdom.
>
>Robert
> >
> > > > Certainly--though in that case, the praise might be
> > > > made with genuinely good intention, regardless of the
> > > > (unintentional) delusion.
> > > >
> > >In the Dhamma sense 'genuinely good intention' means kusala
> > >cetana and it only arises with kusala citta. If you say, for
> > >example, to a deluded teacher, (who you assume is wise but
> > who
> > >teaches satipatthana wrongly)  'how wonderful is your
> > teaching
> > >about satipatthana' then the cittas motivating that speech
> > >(vacivinnati) are conditioned by very subtle miccha-ditthi.
> > It
> > >may feel very right and because it is associated with lobha
> > >(always) it will be very sincere but.. If that very same
> > teacher
> > >happens to teach metta and dana correctly and you praise him
> > >"how wonderful your teaching on metta is" then the citta may
> > be
> > >genuinely kusala. That sentence might have come immediately
> > >after the one with miccha-ditthi and the feeling may have
> > felt
> > >almost the same as the preceeding one because miccha -ditthi
> > >always arises only with pleasant feeling or neutral feeling -
> > as
> > >do all types of kusala. Very easy to be fooled by vedana.
> > >When we talk about 'genuinely good intention' in worldly life
> > we
> > >mean any intention that wants what is good for others and
> > >ourselves - but as we see what is really good for others and
> > >ourselves can only be seen by understanding paramattha
> > dhammas
> > >as they arise directly.
> > >Robert
> > >

 
1280 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:11am
Subject: to 'sit' or not to 'sit'?

 
  Dear Sukin,

sorry, the last one just zapped off on its own...not only yours that do 
that, Robert!

I was thinking back to this post of yours, Sukin, and I fully agree with 
what Robert replied....No rules, O.K!

If you feel like 'sitting', fine!  If you feel like karaoke, fine! No one is 
saying there can't be understanding while 'sitting'. Like Robert suggested, 
you may feel less bothered about it as understanding grows.  Sometimes we 
may decide to do X and just when we're about to start, end up doing Y. It 
just depends on conditions again. We think WE need to make decisions, but 
these are conditioned too! Robert wrote a good paragraph about how whether 
things go right or wrong doesn't depend on 'my' decisions.

Realities and results are very complex and wondering about whether your 
'sitting' will hinder the development of understanding doesn't help. Just 
know it as another moment of thinking and leave it to conditions as to 
whether you 'sit' or not at any given time.  I suspect that the more 
understanding there is of anatta, the less inclined you'll be to 'sit' for 
your meditation...but not by forcing a change of lifestyle. The same does 
not apply to karaoke because there is no idea of it helping one's practice!

Let us know how it goes. If you have the idea of putting your feet in two 
boats, it's just that: an idea! When there is the idea of listening to 
another aspect of your 'being', again it's just another story or idea!

Best wishes,
Sarah

Dear Robert,
>I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
>Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet
>in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be
>actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The
>activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
>Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'?
>Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna
>to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of
>a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?
>
>Sukin.
>PS: I liked your;
>
> > Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> > death happens it will be just like this.
>
>'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy
>to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as
>opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much
>taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks.
>


 
1281 From: m. nease   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 4:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Dukkha Etymology

 
  --- Joe Cummings  wrote:

> The wheel continues to roll unevenly,
> an image which I'm told 
> conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha

(I liked this image sent it off to palitrans for
review)

Joe, here's the first response from Sean Whittle at
palitrans (thought everyone might find this
interesting):

(I have sent this also to the Dhamma-list because I
thought you'd find it
interesting.)

> "The wheel continues to roll unevenly, an image
which I'm told
> conveys the original etymology of the word dukkha"
>
> Make sense? Thanks in advance

mn,
This makes sense to a certain degree and does include
a matter of
interpretation. Here is the background to this which
includes what I think
to be the derivation. This is of course up to
investigation.

First to explore this analogy we have to explore
sukha, the earlier of the
two antonyms. In the .rgveda the word sukha, which
means lit. 'having a
good axle hole' is used in the meaning of running
swiftly or easily and is
said of carriages or chariots and further has the
meaning of easy. This is
the prefix 'su' which means good, well, thoroughly,
happily, and the word
kha which means 'the hole in the center of a wheel'.
By the time of the
Buddha this word took on the full meaning of
'pleasant, agreeable, happy,
prosperous, etc. The word dukkha(skt: du.hkha) is
never(as far as I know)
used in the vedas and came into common use around the
time of the Buddha and
had already been displaced from the original meaning
of kha= 'the hole in
the center of a wheel'. But the word could have been
used in this sense but
not recorded. The word dukkha is derived from sukha
and equals du+kha.
'Du' conveying the sense of apart or away from and
meaning bad, difficult,
etc. and kha(as before). Its meaning is difficult,
uneasy, uncomfortable,
unpleasant; pain, difficulty, stress, etc. This
certainly could have
originally been used in the sense of the chariot with
a bad axle hole. My
view is that sukha had the original meaning and by the
time of the common
usage of dukkha, in the sense that we understand it,
it was derived from
sukha. The wheel analogy is a valid one and does tie
in with the greater
meaning of the wheel within Buddhism. There is also a
derivation of su+kha,
and du+kha derived from kha equaling empty space, sky,
air, etc., hence
'easy space' and 'difficult space'. This is the view
of ancient pali
grammarians and is also valid and may have been the
meaning of kha at the
time of the Buddha. I see both as valid.

Hope this helps,
Sean 



 
1282 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 9:11am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- A T  wrote: > Dear Robert,
> 
>    Thank you for the explanation.  So, it all depends on
> citta.  
Therefore, 
> if the giver offers something to the Buddha without realizing
> that the 
> recipient is worthy, it's not very helpful to the giver due to
> his lack of 
> wisdom.

Yes, I can't see how it can be any other way. There are complex
ways though that citta is conditioned - as I said arammana
paccaya (object condition) is alawys one condition. Someone
gives to the Buddha and might not be aware that they have any
special citta but that object might still have conditioned extra
sadda (or maybe not) Also to see a Buddha is conditioned by
kammapaccaya and vipakapaccaya of an unusually high kusala
degree - when one then reponds well by giving it must be a very
good type of kamma. I had to add all this just to make it clear
how complicated these things are - and how complex is each
moment of citta. None of it is self.
A higher type of kusala than even giving to the buddha is
understanding that this moment is dhamma, anatta, conditioned
phenomenon, uncontrollable, alien.


> Robert


 
1283 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:57am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  Dear MN,
Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. The joy that is felt is
the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko)  satipatthana, and then
understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when there is sati, if the
conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes in my life and
relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) have been detected as
well, and this too is a cause for joy.

But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may paraphrase, how does
one tell the difference between that type of joy and that which is lobha?
Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is understood, again, if the
conditions are ripe for it to arise.

Have been slowly going through the mound of e-mails from the group since
returning from a holiday in France, only 50 to go and 10 more come each day!

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID



----- Original Message -----
From: m. nease 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight


>
>  wrote:
>
> > Hard work for all of us; reading,
> > considering, replying. But, my, doesn't it condition
> > kusala citta?
>
> It sure does--I THINK.  Lately, I've become a little
> suspicious of pleasant feelings arising around
> reflections on dhamma.  Despite these reservations,
> however, I've been walking around smiling like an
> idiot ever since I found this group.  And, whether
> these smiles are the result of kusala, or of subtle
> akusala, I thank you all for them just the same!
>
> mn
>

 
1284 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 11:05am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  --- A T  wrote: > 

> >BTW, the terms
> >straightness and crookedness are new to me in this
> >context - would this be the same as motion and
> >pressure?
> 
>    Yes, it is.  It's because photthabbarammana is
> for tangibility (touch?).  
> Our body can feel earth (hardness/softness),
> temparature (heat/cold), and 
> wind (motion/pressure).  The wind element can
> straighten or bend an object.  
> It's the relationship between rupa and nama. 
> Without this wind, we cannot 
> move.

Alex

Thank you for this explanation.  It's always useful to
have something explained from a different angle. 
Helps break down stubborn ideas!

Jonothan


 
1285 From: Joe Cummings   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 1:04pm
Subject: time & path

 
  Hi Sarah

>I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really appreciate
>all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where people
>are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and
>experience for sure!

Here comes the axe ...

>Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same
>Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language
>school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who now
>lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was supporting
>most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have occasional
>news of many of them.

Was one of the monks Phra Alan by chance? Also, do you know of a way to 
contact Nina? I passed through Nakhon Phanom just a few weeks ago.

>Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture and
>teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope
>that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the role
>of architecture in preserving dhamma with you!

I would love to meet Pinna.

>As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying with
>Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married
>since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong.

Sathu ...

>We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and
>friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet you
>and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin
>and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list group
>at the Shangrila where we'll be staying.


I might be in Bangkok that second interval and would love to meet up. I'm 
flying to London tomorrow and will be back in Thailand from 5 Nov., so will 
check back then.

metta, Joe

 
1286 From: protectID 
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 0:48pm
Subject: Thanks

 
  Hi Jonathan.

Thank You for Welcoming me to the group!!!
( Oops , beep..beep a maana was detected inside - for being among knowledgable
people)

Robert invited me to this group and I am indebted to him.

About me ( in this bhava) :o)

my name is Gayan Karunaratne
I live in Sri Lanka
Was born there in 1974.
I was born a buddhist, but as you know, it 'clicked' quite lately for me ( the
true worth of what buddha said).

Of course we have been brothers, sisters, parents,relations for endless number
of times!!!

I like to know about your'selves' too( no need to flood the group- send it to my
 address) :o)

I like to mention  just one gathaa that the Perfect One said( Otherwise this
post will be quite useless)

"Kim kaira udapaanena
Aapace sabbada siyum?,
thanhaaya mulatho cetwa
kissa pariyesanam chare?"

When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells?
When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana),
 who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ?
(because every satisfaction is there)


so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think that it is...




Rgds

gayan

 
1287 From: protectID 
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 0:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Axtran,

Hi  :o)
yes world is small indeed( without the proliferations!)

to that example given earlier,..
(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the 'Link' is not there.(so
they will not give result to anything)
Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., and sicknesses
come to 'them...'
Its like when arahants 'eat' food .. "their" bodies will get nutrients.



rgds

gayan




"A T"  on 10/19/2000 02:06:29 PM

Subject:  Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)




Dear Gayan and Robert,

   The actions of an Arahant will not give result because his citta is
kriya.  I don't think that the Buddha will get any merit.  In this example,
Sariputta does not get merit either if at that time, he's already
enlightened; otherwise, he will.  Well, perhaps I'm wrong as usual anyway.

   Gayan, I did not know that you're also in this group.  The internet makes
the world very small. :-)))

Regards,
AT

 
1288 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Maggha citta

 
  > According to my reading of the vipassana nanas: at the moment
> that vipassana nana occurs the path factors, five at least, are
> present and samadhi is indeed strong. However, it might not be
> at the strength of jhana but rather at the the level of upacara.
> The brief moments when nibbana occurs are at the strength of
> jhana. 
> Robert
> --- amara chay  wrote: > 
> > 
> > Dear Group,
> > 
> > I just had time to reread the post again, and again found a
> > mistake, 
> > or rather, an omission, at the end of the sentence,
> > 
> > Note: the levels of attainment do 
> > > not have to be the same in both areas, the arahanta who had 
> > attained 
> > > only the pathama-jhana would have only that lowest level of
> > jhana 
> > > but the higest attainment of vipassana nana, or the person
> > who has 
> > > the first level of vipassana nana (not even a sotapanna, in
> > fact we 
> > > remember that this practice comes from long befor the
> > Buddha's 
> > time, 
> > > so just any ascetic who knew the difference between kusala
> > and 
> > > akusala could probably do it).
> > 
> > there should have been the rest of the train of reasoning: 
> > or the person who has the first level of vipassana nana (not
> > even a 
> > sotapanna, in fact we remember that this practice comes from
> > long 
> > befor the Buddha's time, so just any ascetic who knew the
> > difference 
> > between kusala and akusala could probably do it) could have
> > the 
> > acheived the highest jhana of nevasanna-nasannayatana-jhana.


Dear Robert,

I'm sure you are right, but would love to see some of your reference 
material if you have time, I have never been much interested in 
samatha and would like to learn.

Thanks in advance,

Amara

 
1289 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:02pm
Subject: Re: Thanks

 
  > "Kim kaira udapaanena
> Aapace sabbada siyum?,
> thanhaaya mulatho cetwa
> kissa pariyesanam chare?"
> 
> When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells?
> When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana),
>  who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ?
> (because every satisfaction is there)
> 
> 
> so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think 
that it is...


Hi and welcome from me too,

This is so beautiful, thanks for quoting it for us!  But perhaps the 
void we speak about is the ultimate absence of lobha, dosa and moha, 
the perfect peace beyond our imagination?  Because when we think of 
satisfaction we think of the gratification through the six dvara, 
none of us can have an idea of the 'every satisfaction' that 'is 
there' without the six dvara could be like!  Sounds sublime anyway,

Thanks for sharing,

Amara

 
 
1290 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Maggha citta

 
  Dear Amara,
I can't remember where I saw references to this. it might not be
explained in so many words. We can see that it is like this
(probably) from considering and seeing how the path works. For
panna to understand the brief moments - so, so brief- it has to
have assistance from other cetasikas- samadhi, sati, viriya,
vitaka. They help panna 'lock on' (that might be a radical way
to put it) and see dhammas as they are, for a few processes,
very short. It must be very vivid- vipassana nana that is. 

Nibbana is said to be experienced with the force of jhana. (i
think atthasalini mentions this) However as the path factors
aren't fully developed in vipassana nana I reasoned that they
would be probably at the level of upacara (still strong samadhi)
but less than jhana.
Some people read about such matters and think that if they can
make samadhi strong, panna will arise at the same time or after
or something. But these factors are not under control of anyone.
It is panna that should be developed and then the other factors
follow. Trying to do it the other way around it is so easy to go
wrong. Imitation awareness is likely to arise.

Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> > According to my reading of the vipassana nanas: at the
> moment
> > that vipassana nana occurs the path factors, five at least,
> are
> > present and samadhi is indeed strong. However, it might not
> be
> > at the strength of jhana but rather at the the level of
> upacara.
> > The brief moments when nibbana occurs are at the strength of
> > jhana. 
> > Robert
> > --- > Dear Robert,
> 
> I'm sure you are right, but would love to see some of your
> reference 
> material if you have time, I have never been much interested
> in 
> samatha and would like to learn.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
1291 From: amara chay   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:12pm
Subject: Re: time & path

 
  > I might be in Bangkok that second interval and would love to meet 
up. I'm 
> flying to London tomorrow and will be back in Thailand from 5 Nov., 
so will 
> check back then.
> 
> metta, Joe

Dear Joe,

Bon voyage and see you back in Bangkok soon!  Drop us a line from 
London if you have time,

Amara

 
1292 From: protectID 
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:16pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Thanks

 
  Hi amara,

yes of course!

you said..
'satisfaction we can think of'--  the thing is ...as buddha said every
conditioned thing is 'unsatisfactory'
so whatever we think of..its unsatisfactory

so nibbana- the unconditioned - is 'The' satisfactory thing!

:o)


rgds

gayan

 
1293 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 5:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit'?

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for reminding me not to get stuck in scripts and stories.
As a person who doesn't wait for praise to come from outside but
happily does it to himself, I've still got a lot of accumulations to sift
through. I can imagine that attending to moment to moment realities
will generate best course of action to be taken. But just as gold is
so hard to find in the midst of so much sand, I only hope that I can
stick with this group long enough to find enough gold, and then not
to think about staying or leaving it....See how I like to create stories?
Thanks again. My image of you is that of a wise and gentle person
(another story? But it must have a good degree of truth, right?).

Anumoddhana,
Sukin.


Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:

> Dear Sukin,
>
> sorry, the last one just zapped off on its own...not only yours that do
> that, Robert!
>
> I was thinking back to this post of yours, Sukin, and I fully agree with
> what Robert replied....No rules, O.K!
>
> If you feel like 'sitting', fine!  If you feel like karaoke, fine! No one is
> saying there can't be understanding while 'sitting'. Like Robert suggested,
> you may feel less bothered about it as understanding grows.  Sometimes we
> may decide to do X and just when we're about to start, end up doing Y. It
> just depends on conditions again. We think WE need to make decisions, but
> these are conditioned too! Robert wrote a good paragraph about how whether
> things go right or wrong doesn't depend on 'my' decisions.
>
> Realities and results are very complex and wondering about whether your
> 'sitting' will hinder the development of understanding doesn't help. Just
> know it as another moment of thinking and leave it to conditions as to
> whether you 'sit' or not at any given time.  I suspect that the more
> understanding there is of anatta, the less inclined you'll be to 'sit' for
> your meditation...but not by forcing a change of lifestyle. The same does
> not apply to karaoke because there is no idea of it helping one's practice!
>
> Let us know how it goes. If you have the idea of putting your feet in two
> boats, it's just that: an idea! When there is the idea of listening to
> another aspect of your 'being', again it's just another story or idea!
>
> Best wishes,
> Sarah
>
> Dear Robert,
> >I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
> >Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet
> >in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be
> >actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The
> >activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
> >Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'?
> >Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna
> >to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of
> >a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?
> >
> >Sukin.
> >PS: I liked your;
> >
> > > Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> > > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> > > death happens it will be just like this.
> >
> >'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy
> >to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as
> >opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much
> >taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks.
> >
>

 
1294 From: protectID 
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 7:14pm
Subject: Re: quiet tonight

 
  ---  "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" 
 wrote:
> Dear MN,
> Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. The joy that is 
felt is
> the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko)  satipatthana, and 
then
> understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when there is sati, if 
the
> conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes in my life and
> relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) have been 
detected as
> well, and this too is a cause for joy.
> 
> But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may paraphrase, 
how does
> one tell the difference between that type of joy and that which is 
lobha?
> Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is understood, 
again, if the
> conditions are ripe for it to arise.
> 



Dear Betty,

I'm so happy to see your post on the dhamma group.
Only few months ago, when we've met in the Bay Area.
I notice that your poit of veiw has changed since then.
(correct me if I'm wrong)I remember you comment a lot on
sitting meditation.

That's reinforce what you've said'panna wnows when it arises"
Fortunatly, we've met the right teacher (tarn Ajarn Sujin)
we all must have accumulated kussala kamma in our past.

Thanks to everyone's knowledge, and sharing 
in dhamma.
With metta,
O

 
1295 From: A T   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 9:23am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  >From: Robert Kirkpatrick 

>A higher type of kusala than even giving to the buddha is
>understanding that this moment is dhamma, anatta, conditioned
>phenomenon, uncontrollable, alien.

  Sadhu...

Alex


 
1296 From: A T   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 9:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  >From: protectID
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and 
>fear)
>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:11:38 +0600
>
>to that example given earlier,..
>(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the 'Link' is not 
>there.(so
>they will not give result to anything)
>Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., and 
>sicknesses
>come to 'them...'

   Hi Gayan,

   I understand that whatever the Arahant goes through such as aging, or 
getting sick is due to the left over vipaka that He created before attaining 
Arahantship.

   I may be wrong again.  Perhaps Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, ... can 
help.   :-)))

>Its like when arahants 'eat' food .. "their" bodies will get nutrients.

Regards,
Alex


 
1297 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Fri Oct 20, 2000 10:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear alex, 
As you said the arahant no longer has kusala or akusala cittas 
- they have kiriya. Thus they do not make any new kamma. Can
what they do after they become arahants give any merit  in the
short time before parinibbana : if so of what type - if not why
not? What are the correct terms?
This is definitely answered in the texts- somewhere- I remember
reading it (if only I could remember the conclusion).I am sure
Kom or Amara will have the full details for us sooner or later. 
Robert
--- A T  wrote: > 
> 
> 
> >From: protectID
> > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation,
> hatred ,and 
> >fear)
> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:11:38 +0600
> >
> >to that example given earlier,..
> >(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the
> 'Link' is not 
> >there.(so
> >they will not give result to anything)
> >Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age.,
> and 
> >sicknesses
> >come to 'them...'
> 
>    Hi Gayan,
> 
>    I understand that whatever the Arahant goes through such as
> aging, or 
> getting sick is due to the left over vipaka that He created
> before attaining 
> Arahantship.
> 
>    I may be wrong again.  Perhaps Robert, Sarah, Jonothan,
> Amara, ... can 
> help.   :-)))
> 
> >Its like when arahants 'eat' food .. "their" bodies will get
> nutrients.
> 
> Regards,
> Alex
> 
>

 
1298 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 0:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path

 
  Hello, Joe,
Nina is a friend of mine who had given me Achaan Sujin's name several years
ago. But I guess at that time I was not yet ready to study with her. I'm
sure she'd like to hear from you and would not mind me giving you her
address:
    Nina and Charoen Wimuttikosol
    PO Box 13, Muang, Nakorn Phanom 48000
            (street address:)
    38 Moo 2, Bahn Nok Hauk, Wern Prabat,
    Tha Uthen, Nakorn Phanom 48000
    ph: 01-220-3055, 01-670-4955
    e-mail: protectID (she shares this with another and cannot
always get to the computer terminal to answer mail. Therefore, she will not
be able to carry on with the group's correspondence).

Hope you can get in touch with her.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID





----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Cummings 
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] time & path


> Hi Sarah
>
> >I'll reply more later, but just a quick thanks a lot...I really
appreciate
> >all the details....(lobha for stories!) and it can help to know where
people
> >are coming from! You have a very interesting wealth of knowledge and
> >experience for sure!
>
> Here comes the axe ...
>
> >Just in brief, the house you used to go to off Thanon Sathon was the same
> >Jonothan's home and at that time Khun Sujin was running a Thai language
> >school there too. I expect the American Nina was then Nina Shaeffer who
now
> >lives in Nakon Phanon...unfortunately not on line. Jonothan was
supporting
> >most those farang monks from Wat Bowan and Wat Phleng and we have
occasional
> >news of many of them.
>
> Was one of the monks Phra Alan by chance? Also, do you know of a way to
> contact Nina? I passed through Nakhon Phanom just a few weeks ago.
>
> >Did you meet Pinna? She's here... She has a PhD in Buddhist architecture
and
> >teaches at Singapore Uni.. (soon to retire to her home in Bangkok....hope
> >that's right Pinna) She'll certainly be able to discuss stupas and the
role
> >of architecture in preserving dhamma with you!
>
> I would love to meet Pinna.
>
> >As for those entanglements and accumulations....I also started studying
with
> >Khun Sujin in 1977 in Sri lanka (April). Jonothan and I have been married
> >since 1981 living mostly in Hong Kong.
>
> Sathu ...
>
> >We'll be in Bkk in Dec (2nd-4th and 9th-12th) and with Khun Sujin and
> >friends (lots inc. Nina Van Gorkom) in Cambodia in between. Hope to meet
you
> >and anyone else from the list then. There will be discussions w/ K.Sujin
> >and we may try to arrange an extra informal discussion with the list
group
> >at the Shangrila where we'll be staying.
>
>
> I might be in Bangkok that second interval and would love to meet up. I'm
> flying to London tomorrow and will be back in Thailand from 5 Nov., so
will
> check back then.
>
> metta, Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 
1299 From: m. nease   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 2:20am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
 wrote:
> Dear MN,
> Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group.
> The joy that is felt is
> the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko) 

...yes, ehipassiko--just the thought conditions the
arising of a smile...

> satipatthana, and then
> understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when
> there is sati, if the
> conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes
> in my life and
> relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka)
> have been detected as
> well, and this too is a cause for joy.

...same here!
 
> But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may
> paraphrase, how does
> one tell the difference between that type of joy and
> that which is lobha?

I know!  Hard to wisely attend to sukkhavedana arising
from 'subtle lobha'...

> Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is
> understood, again, if the
> conditions are ripe for it to arise.

Yes.  A LOT of mudita for whatever kamma conditioned
the coming together of this group has also been
arising of late...
 
> Have been slowly going through the mound of e-mails
> from the group since
> returning from a holiday in France, only 50 to go
> and 10 more come each day!

Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris
nightclub?  Just joking!

So nice to meet you, Betty (my mother's name is also
Betty).  I look forward to doing so someday in person.

mn


 
1300 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 9:30am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight

 
  Dear MN,
Great to meet you too. If you are coming to Bkk with the group in December,
then we will all get to meet then. France was loads of lobha, especially the
chateaux and the food, but lots of dhosa when trying to get a taxi in Paris.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID


---
From: m. nease 
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] quiet tonight


>
> --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
>  wrote:
> > Dear MN,
> > Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group.
> > The joy that is felt is
> > the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko)
>
> ...yes, ehipassiko--just the thought conditions the
> arising of a smile...
>
> > satipatthana, and then
> > understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when
> > there is sati, if the
> > conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes
> > in my life and
> > relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka)
> > have been detected as
> > well, and this too is a cause for joy.
>
> ...same here!
>
> > But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may
> > paraphrase, how does
> > one tell the difference between that type of joy and
> > that which is lobha?
>
> I know!  Hard to wisely attend to sukkhavedana arising
> from 'subtle lobha'...
>
> > Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is
> > understood, again, if the
> > conditions are ripe for it to arise.
>
> Yes.  A LOT of mudita for whatever kamma conditioned
> the coming together of this group has also been
> arising of late...
>
> > Have been slowly going through the mound of e-mails
> > from the group since
> > returning from a holiday in France, only 50 to go
> > and 10 more come each day!
>
> Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris
> nightclub?  Just joking!
>
> So nice to meet you, Betty (my mother's name is also
> Betty).  I look forward to doing so someday in person.
>
> mn
>
>

 
1301 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 2:53pm
Subject: jataka where the bodhisatta stole

 
  Dear Leonardo,
I just got a note from Nina van gorkom about the example I gave
you where the bodhisatta stole (I sent her some of our letters
as her feedback is always accurate).
She gave the name of the jataka-it is the Silavimamsa birth tale
(No290). She comments that the reason he stole was to see
whether people respected his lineage etc or because of sila. She
notes that when we look at the context above all it "was the
occasion to praise sila". My interpretation gives a different
twist to this. Please take note.
Robert


 
1302 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:24am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thanks

 
  Dear Gayan,

yes, it's gret to have you hear. So we both visited Sri lanka for the first 
time in this life in the same year.... Funnily (?) I've never felt so 'at 
home' on arrival in any country before or since. maybe past lives, maybe 
just lobha and thinking..... I THINK you're our first Sri lankan in the 
group, certainly our first contributing Sri Lankan. Khun sujin keeps 
planning another trip there and then there's another outbreak of 
violence....

I am appreciating your posts like the good reminder about tanha (lobha) 
below. Keep them up!

Sarah


>
>
>
>Hi Jonathan.
>
>Thank You for Welcoming me to the group!!!
>( Oops , beep..beep a maana was detected inside - for being among 
>knowledgable
>people)
>
>Robert invited me to this group and I am indebted to him.
>
>About me ( in this bhava) :o)
>
>my name is Gayan Karunaratne
>I live in Sri Lanka
>Was born there in 1974.
>I was born a buddhist, but as you know, it 'clicked' quite lately for me ( 
>the
>true worth of what buddha said).
>
>Of course we have been brothers, sisters, parents,relations for endless 
>number
>of times!!!
>
>I like to know about your'selves' too( no need to flood the group- send it 
>to my
>  address) :o)
>
>I like to mention  just one gathaa that the Perfect One said( Otherwise 
>this
>post will be quite useless)
>
>"Kim kaira udapaanena
>Aapace sabbada siyum?,
>thanhaaya mulatho cetwa
>kissa pariyesanam chare?"
>
>When water is everywhere,who needs to search for water-wells?
>When tanha is removed from the root( that is nibbana),
>  who needs experimenting and wandering ( for things) ?
>(because every satisfaction is there)
>
>
>so this means the Nibbana is not the Void that puthujjanas think that it 
>is...
>
>
>
>
>Rgds
>
>gayan
>
>
>
>
>


 
1304 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:36am
Subject: devas testing

 
  Dear Robert,
I really appreciated your very prompt response and was flattered to share a 
paragraph with Buddhaghosa..... Unfortunately 'my' viriya and chanda have 
quite a lot of catching up to do...! I certainly went to bed a lot happier 
(!?) reflecting that the devas might be interested enough to test me rather 
than refelecting, as I had been, about how the computer was a real pain at 
times!

Sarah

I've also decided (for now) that it's not smart for me to post when I'm too 
tired!

>
>Dear sarah,
>After Buddhaghosa finished his stupendous work the vissudhimagga
>devas hid it to test him. He promptly repeated the whole work -
>they hid it again. He repeated it again and then the devas
>returned the first two - all were  the same. Now I am not saying
>the devas were testing you  but if....?


 
1305 From: A T   
Date: Thu Oct 19, 2000 10:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Dear Jonothan,

   I just translated into English what my teacher told us in Vietnamese.  He 
just left for Burma last Sunday!  I'm going to ask another teacher of mine, 
the one who knows Achaan Sujin, about the exact meaning of the term later.

Anumodana,
Alex
==================
>From: Jonothan Abbott 
>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:12:07 +0800 (CST)
>
>Alex
>
>Thanks for this.  Very comprehensive.  I have a
>reference to the 3-fold conditions which I will look
>up when I get home.
>
>I believe that haddayavatthu is usually translated as
>heartbase (although that does not mean it is
>physically located at the heart).  BTW, the terms
>straightness and crookedness are new to me in this
>context - would this be the same as motion and
>pressure?
>
>Jonothan
>
>
>--- A T  wrote: > Dear Jonothan,
> >
> >    I've just looked up the information in my last
> > year Abhidhamma notes.
> >
> > Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness
> >    1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye
> >    2. ruparammana: color as object
> >    3. aloka: light
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness
> >    1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear
> >    2. saddarammana: sound as object
> >    3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness
> >    1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose
> >    2. gandharammana: odor as object
> >    3. vayodhatu: wind
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness
> >    1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue
> >    2. rasarammana: taste as object
> >    3. apodhatu: water
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness
> >    1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body
> >    2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness,
> > heat/cold,
> > straightness/crookedness as objects.
> >    3. thaddhapathavi: earth
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Manodhatu: mind element
> >    1. pancadvara: 5 doors
> >    2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and
> > tangibility
> >    3. hadayavatthu:  (English translation?)
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element
> >    1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga
> >    2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and
> > dhamma
> >    3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?)
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> >
> > Regards,
> > AT
> > =================================================
> > >From: Jonothan Abbott 
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]
> > colour/paticcasamupada
> > >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST)
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > > wrote: >
> > >
> > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana
> > (seeing
> > > > consciousness) to arise. These are the
> > > > cakkhupasasada
> > > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa
> > (colour)attention
> > > > or contact (I forget which) and light.
> > >
> > >
> > >Robert
> > >
> > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a
> > query
> > >on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have
> > heard
> > >of there being 3 conditions namely-
> > >
> > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
> > >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
> > >phassa (= contact, a cetasika)
> > >
> > >but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
> > >sense-doors also, eg for hearing?
> > >
> > > > Some people wonder about this because we are
> > used to
> > > > scientific explanations that classify colour as
> > part
> > > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of
> > the
> > > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> > > > tiniest
> > > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> > > > fundamental
> > > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use
> > and I
> > > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually
> > talks
> > > > about visible object because this is just what
> > > > appears
> > > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour
> > or
> > > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details
> > of
> > > > this topic, as seeing arises so often.
> > >
> > >It has always intrigued me that although (in
> > English,
> > >at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
> > >which are experienced through the ear and nose
> > doors
> > >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding
> > term
> > >for the object experienced through the eye door. I
> > >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in
> > the
> > >story of the experiences throught that doorway that
> > we
> > >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw'
> > object
> > >as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
> > >level, distinguish between sound experienced
> > through
> > >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
> > >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg,
> > the
> > >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
> > >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the
> > case
> > >of the visible object.  Even if we are given the
> > whole
> > >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
> > >difficult to come up with any meaningful
> > description.
> > >
> > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have
> > about
> > >v-o.
> > >
> > >Jonothan
> > >
 
1306 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 10:37pm
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  > >to that example given earlier,..
> >(i think that) Arahants get merit, the main thing is the 'Link' is 
not 
> >there.(so
> >they will not give result to anything)
> >Its like even after arahants attain nibbana.."they " do age., and 
> >sicknesses
> >come to 'them...'
> 
>    Hi Gayan,
> 
>    I understand that whatever the Arahant goes through such as 
aging, or 
> getting sick is due to the left over vipaka that He created before 
attaining 
> Arahantship.
> 
>    I may be wrong again.  Perhaps Robert, Sarah, Jonothan, Amara, 
... can 
> help.   :-)))


Dear Alex, and friends,

According to Khun Sujin during today's discussion, the arahanta has 
eradicated all kilesa, so to continue the analogy (with my witch's 
brew luckily coincidental with the holiday spirit of Halloween), 
panna has grown so strong that it expulses all bad cetasika from the 
cauldron so that what remains are the good ones and the operational 
or automatic ones.  From then on with no self to feed the gas 
pellets with kusala and akusala, since even mana is gone, all 
actions turn to kiriya which replace the kusala and akusala, and 
therefore all their cetana is fruitless, no matter how splendid the 
intention or volition.  That is why where normally the last citta 
before the cuti citta would be kusala or akusala, which brings 
results as the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, for the 
arahanta the last citta before cutti would be kiriya that brings no 
results whatever.  The citta has stopped passing on the contents of 
the pot to the next one.  In the meantime, before the parinibbana 
occurs, there would be kiriya with sobhana or asobhana cetasika 
(but of course no more akusala possible) arising concurrently.  Khun 
Sujin asked for example whether the arahanta would need panna to 
bathe as opposed to teaching the dhamma.  

(What a wonderful life it must be never to worry if what one does 
could be wrong, aside from the fact that one is freed from the 
senseless samsara forever!  And most importantly from one's 'self'!!) 
 
So you were perfectly right, Alex, anumodana!
=^_^=
Amara

 
1307 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 10:55pm
Subject: more on sampajanna

 
  Dear group,
I was reading over the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated
by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship).
Thought you might like to hear some passages related to our
recent discussion.
JUst to remind: there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear
comprehension)1puposefulness, 2suitabilty, 3resort, and
4non-delusion. 
We have talked about the 4th one - amoha, panna, non-delusion.
The third one is also interesting - it has one meaning as
"clearly comprehending the resort for ones almsround(for
example)" but also comprehending the resort of ones meditation
subject. On p116 it says "therefore those practising here with
with the aggregates, elements and bases as their meditation
subjects should look ahead and look aside by way of their own
meditation subject: those practising such meditation subjects as
the kasinas should look ahead and look aside keeping their
meditation subject in mind."
A couple of points here: One - that gocara , resort, has levels
of meaning. Two- a definite distinction made between those who
are developing samattha and those who are developing only
vipassana (the object of vipassana is the agggregates, elements
or bases - paramattha dhammas).

The same page says " Clear comprehension of non-delusion here is
understanding thus "internally there is no self which looks
ahead and looks aside. When the thought 'let me look ahead'
arises , the mind -originated air element arise together with
the thought, producing intimation....." It carries on giving
more and more details about mind processes, all to show that
there is no-self, only fleeting coditioned phenomena. This is
comprehension as non-delusion, asammoha-sampajanna. 

Does hearing this condition any understanding now? Do you still
think that "you" chose to look at the email? Or does it help you
to see that conditioned by the thought (which was itself
conditioned) arose the diffusion of the air element that allowed
the hand to push the correct buttons? 
If it does condition understanding then is it some direct
understanding of the dhammas that are arising now, or is it it
at the level of thinking? Never mind - both types are needed -
they support each other.
On page 88 the commentary says "since this Dhamma is deep in
doctrine and deep in teaching, listen carefully. Since it is
deep in meaning and deep in penetration, attend to it
carefully". 
Robert


 
1308 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  --- amara chay  wrote: > 
Dear amara,
> I must say it is damned convenient having you in Bangkok to be
able to tell us about discussions with Khun Sujin. I  have never
thought much about these aspects of Dhamma before and find them
most interesting.
Thanks
Robert
> According to Khun Sujin during today's discussion, the
> arahanta has 
> eradicated all kilesa, so to continue the analogy (with my
> witch's 
> brew luckily coincidental with the holiday spirit of
> Halloween), 
> panna has grown so strong that it expulses all bad cetasika
> from the 
> cauldron so that what remains are the good ones and the
> operational 
> or automatic ones.  From then on with no self to feed the gas 
> pellets with kusala and akusala, since even mana is gone, all 
> actions turn to kiriya which replace the kusala and akusala,
> and 
> therefore all their cetana is fruitless, no matter how
> splendid the 
> intention or volition.  That is why where normally the last
> citta 
> before the cuti citta would be kusala or akusala, which brings
> 
> results as the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, for the 
> arahanta the last citta before cutti would be kiriya that
> brings no 
> results whatever.  The citta has stopped passing on the
> contents of 
> the pot to the next one.  In the meantime, before the
> parinibbana 
> occurs, there would be kiriya with sobhana or asobhana
> cetasika 
> (but of course no more akusala possible) arising concurrently.
>  Khun 
> Sujin asked for example whether the arahanta would need panna
> to 
> bathe as opposed to teaching the dhamma.  
> 
> (What a wonderful life it must be never to worry if what one
> does 
> could be wrong, aside from the fact that one is freed from the
> 
> senseless samsara forever!  And most importantly from one's
> 'self'!!) 
>  
> So you were perfectly right, Alex, anumodana!
> =^_^=
> Amara
> 
> 



 
1309 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:14pm
Subject: Re: quiet tonight

 
  > Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris
> nightclub?  Just joking!


Dear Mike,

Actually it wasn't my choice at the time, I was taking some friends 
around Paris and at the end of the day they decided to have dinner 
at the Lido and take in a show, I wasn't about to sit around at 
the hotel dining alone, my friends worrying about me and spoiling 
their fun (and I wasn't doing anything dishonest).  But it really 
does show that with right understanding anything can be studied, 
can't it?  By the way I hope Betty will write about Khun Sujin's 
definition and explanation of the 4 sampajanna for us,

Amara

 
1310 From: amara chay   
Date: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:27pm
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  > > I must say it is damned convenient having you in Bangkok to be
> able to tell us about discussions with Khun Sujin. I  have never
> thought much about these aspects of Dhamma before and find them
> most interesting.


Dear Robert,

Beats studying alone, doesn't it, which is also why this group is so 
great, except that in BKK there is also Khun Sujin, so you must 
visit us more often!  Is there any chance you'd change your mind 
about Cambodia?

Amara

 
1311 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 0:47am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight

 
  Dear Friends in Dhamma,
Amara has asked me to explain what Achaan Sujin taught us concerning
Sampajanna (n with Spanish tilde on top). Her translations of the terms in
English are different from the ones usually found in most dhamma books and
Pali dictionaries, but her explanation greatly clarified the meaning and
intent of sampajanna.

The following explanation is merely an intellectual understanding. It is
hoped that when the conditions are right, that each of the 4 sampajanna will
arise, leading to a clear understanding of this process for me (sorry one
has to use that self word).

The term means clear comprehension and it is one of the steps, so to speak,
of satipatthana. When sati arises, it will then lead to Sampajanna. This in
turn becomes the condition for panna to arise. There are 4 types or levels
of sampajanna:
1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance:
clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this
understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think
deeply, about whatever question arises.
2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would
understand whether one is ready to understand or not.
3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear comprehension
of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door
processes.
4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At this
point, panna would then arise.
Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in the
process of satipatthana.

Please forgive me if my understanding is a bit shaky and help correct any
misunderstanding I may have of this.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID


----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:14 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight


>
>
> > Did you happen to visit Amara's satipatthana Paris
> > nightclub?  Just joking!
>
>
> Dear Mike,
>
> Actually it wasn't my choice at the time, I was taking some friends
> around Paris and at the end of the day they decided to have dinner
> at the Lido and take in a show, I wasn't about to sit around at
> the hotel dining alone, my friends worrying about me and spoiling
> their fun (and I wasn't doing anything dishonest).  But it really
> does show that with right understanding anything can be studied,
> can't it?  By the way I hope Betty will write about Khun Sujin's
> definition and explanation of the 4 sampajanna for us,
>
> Amara
>
>
>
>
>
>

 
1312 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:02am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Friends in Dhamma,
I must add a ps and a confession: when I was in Paris, almost 2 weeks ago,
my husband persuaded us all to attend the Lido show as well. It was an up to
date sound and light experience of pure lobha. During the performance,
therefore, no panna arose. But once the performance was over, the
realization of the impermanence of the aramana coming through the sense
doors hit with a bang and I was thus forcefully reminded once again that all
conditioned realities are anatta, anicca and dukkha. Places like the Lido,
Las Vegas (there are 2 Thai Buddhist temples there) and karaoke bars are
great for panna to arise, provided sati and sampajanna arise as well.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID





----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:27 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)


>
> > > I must say it is damned convenient having you in Bangkok to be
> > able to tell us about discussions with Khun Sujin. I  have never
> > thought much about these aspects of Dhamma before and find them
> > most interesting.
>
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> Beats studying alone, doesn't it, which is also why this group is so
> great, except that in BKK there is also Khun Sujin, so you must
> visit us more often!  Is there any chance you'd change your mind
> about Cambodia?
>
> Amara
>
>
>
>
>
>

 
1313 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:10am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight

 
  Dear O,
Have been following your letters to the group and I too often thought about
how ignorant
I was when I first met you. Fortunately, I also had the chance to talk with
Jack. Had I not done so, I probably would not have contacted Amara and nor
begun to study with Achaan. This is just a "story" which shows how
everything is conditioned (paccaya). I give thanks every day that the
conditions were right for me to begin studying Abhidhamma with Achaan.
And I thank you for being part of the conditions which brought me to this
point.

Very much looking forward to a great reunion with you, Jack and Oie when you
all come in December.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID




----- Original Message -----
From: <protectID>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 6:14 PM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight


> ---  "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
>  wrote:
> > Dear MN,
> > Yes, I feel the same way since I found this group. The joy that is
> felt is
> > the result of having "checked out" (ehipassiko)  satipatthana, and
> then
> > understanding that wisdom does indeed arise when there is sati, if
> the
> > conditions are right for it to do so. Subtle changes in my life and
> > relationships (the rise of increasing kusala vipaka) have been
> detected as
> > well, and this too is a cause for joy.
> >
> > But, as someone in a previous letter noted, if I may paraphrase,
> how does
> > one tell the difference between that type of joy and that which is
> lobha?
> > Panna knows and when it arises, the difference is understood,
> again, if the
> > conditions are ripe for it to arise.
> >
>
>
>
> Dear Betty,
>
> I'm so happy to see your post on the dhamma group.
> Only few months ago, when we've met in the Bay Area.
> I notice that your poit of veiw has changed since then.
> (correct me if I'm wrong)I remember you comment a lot on
> sitting meditation.
>
> That's reinforce what you've said'panna wnows when it arises"
> Fortunatly, we've met the right teacher (tarn Ajarn Sujin)
> we all must have accumulated kussala kamma in our past.
>
> Thanks to everyone's knowledge, and sharing
> in dhamma.
> With metta,
> O
>

 
1314 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:34am
Subject: nibbana

 
  Dear Jonathan,
Yes, I finally got clarification on the question re: the nature of nibbana.
When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to nibbana, and the Buddha or
Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that arise after that point
are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. Panna may indeed still continue
to arise even though understanding is complete.. However, when such a being
dies and enters Parinibbana, then the cittas and cetasikas end as well.

I'm hoping this is correct understanding of that, albeit at an intellectual
level only, obviously.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID
 
1315 From: amara chay   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:39am
Subject: Re: nibbana

 
  > When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to nibbana, and the 
Buddha or
> Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that arise after 
that point
> are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. 


Dear Betty,

I'm pretty sure you made a typo here, you meant to say kiriya instead 
of viriya, but I'm sure we all got it!

Wasn't it great today,

Amara

 
1316 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 1:44am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: nibbana

 
  Wooops, sorry about that. Yeah I often do that between kiriya and viriya:
type one when I mean the other and vice versa. Carelessness (there must be a
cetasika for that).

Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID



----- Original Message -----
From: amara chay 
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 12:39 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: nibbana


>
> > When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to nibbana, and the
> Buddha or
> > Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that arise after
> that point
> > are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya.
>
>
> Dear Betty,
>
> I'm pretty sure you made a typo here, you meant to say kiriya instead
> of viriya, but I'm sure we all got it!
>
> Wasn't it great today,
>
> Amara

 
1317 From: protectID=Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 8:58am
Subject: Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Amara,

   Thank you for checking with Achann Sujin.  How wonderful and 
complete her answer is!  We are indeed very lucky that we have you 
right in Thailand with good command of English and Thai.  :-)))

Anumodana,
Alex Tran

---  "amara chay"  
wrote:
> 
> According to Khun Sujin during today's discussion, the arahanta has 
> eradicated all kilesa, so to continue the analogy (with my witch's 
> brew luckily coincidental with the holiday spirit of Halloween), 
> panna has grown so strong that it expulses all bad cetasika from 
the 
> cauldron so that what remains are the good ones and the operational 
> or automatic ones.  From then on with no self to feed the gas 
> pellets with kusala and akusala, since even mana is gone, all 
> actions turn to kiriya which replace the kusala and akusala, and 
> therefore all their cetana is fruitless, no matter how splendid the 
> intention or volition.  That is why where normally the last citta 
> before the cuti citta would be kusala or akusala, which brings 
> results as the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, for the 
> arahanta the last citta before cutti would be kiriya that brings no 
> results whatever.  The citta has stopped passing on the contents of 
> the pot to the next one.  In the meantime, before the parinibbana 
> occurs, there would be kiriya with sobhana or asobhana cetasika 
> (but of course no more akusala possible) arising concurrently.  
Khun 
> Sujin asked for example whether the arahanta would need panna to 
> bathe as opposed to teaching the dhamma.  
> 
> (What a wonderful life it must be never to worry if what one does 
> could be wrong, aside from the fact that one is freed from the 
> senseless samsara forever!  And most importantly from 
one's 'self'!!) 
>
> =^_^=
> Amara

 
1318 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 8:26pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jataka where the bodhisatta stole

 
  --- Robert Kirkpatrick
 wrote: > Dear
Leonardo,
> I just got a note from Nina van gorkom about the
> example I gave
> you where the bodhisatta stole (I sent her some of
> our letters
> as her feedback is always accurate).
> She gave the name of the jataka-it is the
> Silavimamsa birth tale
> (No290). She comments that the reason he stole was
> to see
> whether people respected his lineage etc or because
> of sila. She
> notes that when we look at the context above all it
> "was the
> occasion to praise sila". My interpretation gives a
> different
> twist to this. Please take note.
> Robert

Robert

I meant to respond on this when it came up earlier.  I
was wondering if what the Bodhisatta did was actually
stealing.  If it was his intention all along to return
the money it may not be regarded as stealing.  I raise
this because it seems strange that the Bodhisatta
should breach the precepts in order to develop that
perfection.

Jonothan



 
1319 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:00pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] nibbana

 
  --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
 wrote: > Dear Jonathan,
> Yes, I finally got clarification on the question re:
> the nature of nibbana.
> When the lokkutara (sp?) citta arises leading to
> nibbana, and the Buddha or
> Arahat is still alive, the cittas and cetasikas that
> arise after that point
> are no longer kusala or akusala, but viriya. Panna
> may indeed still continue
> to arise even though understanding is complete..
> However, when such a being
> dies and enters Parinibbana, then the cittas and
> cetasikas end as well.

Betty

Thanks for sharing with us some of your discussion
with Khun Sujin.  How fortunate you are to have such
access.  

Yes, panna can arise with kiriya citta as well as with
kusala citta.  (I guess this is why such cetasikas are
called sobhana cetasikas - ie. rather than kusala
cetasikas.)

Jonothan


 
1320 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:10pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] jataka where the bodhisatta stole

 
  -Dear Jon,

Thanks for the note. I am not as careful as Nina  is when it
comes to interpreting suttas(and have not a fraction of her
knowledge let alone insight). I tend to jump in with an opinion
- and opinions are usually wrong. Nina will examine and consider
and if it is not clear she says "it is not clear".  Please pick
me up when I err in the future.
Robert
-- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: > --- > Robert
> 
> I meant to respond on this when it came up earlier.  I
> was wondering if what the Bodhisatta did was actually
> stealing.  If it was his intention all along to return
> the money it may not be regarded as stealing.  I raise
> this because it seems strange that the Bodhisatta
> should breach the precepts in order to develop that
> perfection.
> 
> Jonothan
> 
> 
>
 
 
 
1321 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  --- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> 
> > But until our panna is well developed, any
> > attempt to make the Buddha’s experience referable
> to
> > our own situation will surely result in the kind
> of
> > wrong practice that you so well describe here and
> in
> > your comments on Kom’s posting.
> > 
> > If and when panna is well developed, it arises and
> > performs its function (in this case, seeing the
> > danger
> > in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course,
> > without
> > having to be called upon to do so.
> 
> So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings
> attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the
> difference?  Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and
> 'the
> real deal'?  

Mike

It is only too easy to take for kusala/awareness/panna
what is akusala/thinking/wrong view.  In the end, only
our own understanding can know the difference between
what Robert (I think) called counterfeit awareness and
the real thing.  That is why we spend a lot of time
talking about the function of awareness and the
realities that can be the object of awareness.  On a
tape I was listening to recently, it was pointed out
that understanding that the present moment is without
awareness can be a condition for some level of
awareness to arise.  If the right conditions have been
developed, awareness will arise naturally, without any
effort or direction on our part.  I find this kind of
reminder useful.

In another post recently you and Robert discussed the
need for patience towards pleasant things, as well as
for khanti (patience) in its more usual meaning of
tolerance towards objects of dosa (eg. other people’s
faults).  I also found this helpful.  When we
read/hear about the attainments that understanding can
bring, it is easy to forget that these can be achieved
only by the gradual and step-by-step development of
understanding.  In our enthusiasm to put into practice
things that we are able to understand and see the
benefit of intellectually, it is easy to overlook the
fact that our understanding is still at a more basic
level.  At these moments there is perhaps a lack of
patience as regards the desirable object!

Anyone who understands at an intellectual level about
kusala and akusala can recognise akusala arising from
time to time.  But this of course is not what is meant
by direct awareness of the object appearing at the
present moment.  Even less is it likely to be so if we
focus on mental states with a view to observing
whether the thoughts arising are kusala or akusla.
(This is simply a variation on the ‘going to a
meditation centre’ syndrome.) Then there is bound to
be attachment – to the object, to results, to the idea
of a self.  There is only a kind of thinking that
cannot know the difference between the subtle forms of
kusala and akusala, no matter how much it might seem
that it can.

Mike, I’m not sure if this really touches on your
point.  My apologies if it is off-track.

Jonothan



 
1322 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Oct 22, 2000 9:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Alex

I've just found the passage I had in mind.  It is in
the Discourse on the Six Senses (Majjhima Nikaya
No.148).  It says-

'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and
visible object, the meeting of the three is contact
...'

It then goes on to explain about akusala with regard
to the experiences through the eye door.  And then the
same for the other doorways.

As you can see, the treatment here, being a sutta, is
slightly different.

Jonothan



--- A T  wrote: > Dear Jonothan,
> 
>    I've just looked up the information in my last
> year Abhidhamma notes.
> 
> Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness
>    1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye
>    2. ruparammana: color as object
>    3. aloka: light
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness
>    1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear
>    2. saddarammana: sound as object
>    3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness
>    1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose
>    2. gandharammana: odor as object
>    3. vayodhatu: wind
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness
>    1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue
>    2. rasarammana: taste as object
>    3. apodhatu: water
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness
>    1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body
>    2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness,
> heat/cold, 
> straightness/crookedness as objects.
>    3. thaddhapathavi: earth
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Manodhatu: mind element
>    1. pancadvara: 5 doors
>    2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and
> tangibility
>    3. hadayavatthu:  (English translation?)
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element
>    1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga
>    2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and
> dhamma
>    3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?)
>    4. manasikara: attention
> 
> Regards,
> AT
> =================================================
> >From: Jonothan Abbott 
> > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]
> colour/paticcasamupada
> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST)
> >
> >
> >--- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > wrote: >
> >
> > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana
> (seeing
> > > consciousness) to arise. These are the
> > > cakkhupasasada
> > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa
> (colour)attention
> > > or contact (I forget which) and light.
> >
> >
> >Robert
> >
> >Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a
> query
> >on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have
> heard
> >of there being 3 conditions namely-
> >
> >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
> >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
> >phassa (= contact, a cetasika)
> >
> >but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
> >sense-doors also, eg for hearing?
> >
> > > Some people wonder about this because we are
> used to
> > > scientific explanations that classify colour as
> part
> > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of
> the
> > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> > > tiniest
> > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> > > fundamental
> > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use
> and I
> > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually
> talks
> > > about visible object because this is just what
> > > appears
> > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour
> or
> > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details
> of
> > > this topic, as seeing arises so often.
> >
> >It has always intrigued me that although (in
> English,
> >at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
> >which are experienced through the ear and nose
> doors
> >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding
> term
> >for the object experienced through the eye door. I
> >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in
> the
> >story of the experiences throught that doorway that
> we
> >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw'
> object
> >as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
> >level, distinguish between sound experienced
> through
> >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
> >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg,
> the
> >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
> >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the
> case
> >of the visible object.  Even if we are given the
> whole
> >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
> >difficult to come up with any meaningful
> description.
> >
> >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have
> about
> >v-o.
> >
> >Jonothan
> >
> >
> >
>

 
1323 From: Mary Reinard   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:59am
Subject: A bit more of an intro

 
  Hello again,

Just got back from my visiting about. Caught the posts directed 
toward myself asking for a bit more introduction. Ok.

As an artist my practice spills into action through the 
learning/practice of Buddhist Iconography. Ajahn Chah and Ajahn 
Pasanno are the teachers taken most closely to this heart for 
guidance. Am married, live in a white house with a picket fence, two 
cats and a yard, though not 64, I still feed him:) 

Am volunteer cordinator for a wee sitting group in Portland, OR. and 
recieve much joy from sharing the Buddha's teachings with my 
community. 

Can't say I'm very versed on the words and structures that seem to 
heavily influence the dialogue in this list, and am not sure I'll 
find a way to fruitfully participate, however, I'll give it a shot.

My style tends to be a bit slower than what so far I've observed 
here. It may take me a day or two to absorb and relate back my 
personal understanding, in which time you will most likely all have 
moved on to other subjects. But, doesn't appear that this will be of 
any issue, just wished to warn you of what may feel like a delayed 
reaction on my part. 

I am glad to be here, and will speak to you all again.
Metta,
Mary

 
1324 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:36am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> --- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> > --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> > 
> > > But until our panna is well developed, any
> > > attempt to make the Buddha’s experience
> referable
> > to
> > > our own situation will surely result in the kind
> > of
> > > wrong practice that you so well describe here
> and
> > in
> > > your comments on Kom’s posting.
> > > 
> > > If and when panna is well developed, it arises
> and
> > > performs its function (in this case, seeing the
> > > danger
> > > in akusala) naturally, as a matter of course,
> > > without
> > > having to be called upon to do so.
> > 
> > So, if this reaction to the unpleasant feelings
> > attendant on akusala arises, how can one tell the
> > difference?  Between a sort of 'bogus wisdom' and
> > 'the
> > real deal'?  
> 
> Mike
> 
> It is only too easy to take for
> kusala/awareness/panna
> what is akusala/thinking/wrong view.  In the end,
> only
> our own understanding can know the difference
> between
> what Robert (I think) called counterfeit awareness
> and
> the real thing.  That is why we spend a lot of time
> talking about the function of awareness and the
> realities that can be the object of awareness.  On a
> tape I was listening to recently, it was pointed out
> that understanding that the present moment is
> without
> awareness can be a condition for some level of
> awareness to arise.  If the right conditions have
> been
> developed, awareness will arise naturally, without
> any
> effort or direction on our part.  I find this kind
> of
> reminder useful.
> 
> In another post recently you and Robert discussed
> the
> need for patience towards pleasant things, as well
> as
> for khanti (patience) in its more usual meaning of
> tolerance towards objects of dosa (eg. other
> people’s
> faults).  I also found this helpful.  When we
> read/hear about the attainments that understanding
> can
> bring, it is easy to forget that these can be
> achieved
> only by the gradual and step-by-step development of
> understanding.  In our enthusiasm to put into
> practice
> things that we are able to understand and see the
> benefit of intellectually, it is easy to overlook
> the
> fact that our understanding is still at a more basic
> level.  At these moments there is perhaps a lack of
> patience as regards the desirable object!
> 
> Anyone who understands at an intellectual level
> about
> kusala and akusala can recognise akusala arising
> from
> time to time.  But this of course is not what is
> meant
> by direct awareness of the object appearing at the
> present moment.  Even less is it likely to be so if
> we
> focus on mental states with a view to observing
> whether the thoughts arising are kusala or akusla.
> (This is simply a variation on the ‘going to a
> meditation centre’ syndrome.) Then there is bound to
> be attachment – to the object, to results, to the
> idea
> of a self.  There is only a kind of thinking that
> cannot know the difference between the subtle forms
> of
> kusala and akusala, no matter how much it might seem
> that it can.
> 
> Mike, I’m not sure if this really touches on your
> point.  My apologies if it is off-track.
> 
> Jonothan

Dear Jonothan,

Thanks, your reponse certainly is to the point.  As is
often the case, I think I'm looking for simple
solutions (or answers) to complex problems (or
questions).  I thought this was particularly apt:

> Anyone who understands at an intellectual level
> about kusala and akusala can recognise akusala 
> arising from time to time.  But this of course is 
> not what is meant by direct awareness of the object
> appearing at the present moment.  Even less is it 
> likely to be so if we focus on mental states with a
> view to observing whether the thoughts arising are 
> kusala or akusla. (This is simply a variation on the
> ‘going to a meditation centre’ syndrome).

So I guess the answer is to continue to try to
cultivate conditions, in the present, for the natural
arising of panna in the future.

This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma:
If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously
due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to
viriya or vayama, e.g., play?  That is, is 'effort' as
conventionally understood just an illusion?  How does
the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding
of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at
the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising
with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these
dhammas are uncontrollable?

I realize this is a different question from the
original.  Hope I'm not being obtuse!

Thanks in advance,

mn


 
1325 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:42am
Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro

 
  > As an artist my practice spills into action through the 
> learning/practice of Buddhist Iconography. 


Wow!!!

Dear Mary, 

Would it be possible to see some of your creations?  Maybe you 
could attach some scanned work to your e-mails here?  I have a lot 
of Lobha for beautiful things, but then only the anagami is no 
longer affected by 'beauty'!  

Looking forward very much and thanking you in advance,

Amara

 
1326 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  --- Dear Mike.
> 
> "This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma:
> If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously
> due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to
> viriya or vayama, e.g., play?  That is, is 'effort' as
> conventionally understood just an illusion?  How does
> the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding
> of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at
> the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising
> with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these
> dhammas are uncontrollable?"

I would have a few things to say about this (and of course Jon
will too, and others I hope). But in the meantime could you give
us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go to the heart
of how we understand the Dhamma and what right practice is.
Robert
> 
> I realize this is a different question from the
> original.  Hope I'm not being obtuse!
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> mn
> 
> 
> -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 



 
1327 From: Mary Reinard   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:59am
Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro

 
  Maybe you 
> could attach some scanned work to your e-mails here>
 
> Amara

Dear Amara,

How do I attach a file?

Mary

 
1329 From: m. nease   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 0:15pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Robert,

Thanks for your response.

 wrote:

> could you give
> us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go
> to the heart
> of how we understand the Dhamma and what right
> practice is.
> Robert

I thought so.  My problem is that I don't seem to have
much in the way of thoughts to offer.  I really do
understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that
'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the
point, sammavayama), is already a kind of
sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is
something that 'I' can exert.  And that even the
effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and
subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and
dependent on present accumulations.  And yet
everything seems to depend on this very cetana.  That
is, that if awareness is arising now, it is
conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and
that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will
have been conditioned by present cetana (among other
things).

I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very
superficial, theoretical level.  But even on this
level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it. 
I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around
in this particular cul-de-sac.  Thanks for your help!

Bedtime for me.  I look forward to your reply.

mn    


 
1330 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 0:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A bit more of an intro

 
  DeaR mARY,
Thanks for the intro. Recently a lot of our discussions have got
rather technical but that doesn't mean we don't appreciate posts
that use conventional terms and talk about our daily lives-
whatever they might be. Dhamma is simply what is real - and to
understand what is real we have to also know what is not real.
It is hard for me to think of anything that can't be related to
Dhamma (provided we know how to relate it). So... speak about
any matter at all. 

And I love your lotus! I am not artistic at all (my students
laugh when I try to draw something on the board). I was into
science as a child, everyone has different leanings due to
accumulations, but I've always admired artists.
Robert


 
1331 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:01pm
Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro

 
  Dear Mary,

How wonderful, and I see that you've worked out the files thing by 
yourself!  Have you used the design somewhere or someplace?  How did 
you become interested in Buddhist Iconography, by the way?  Thank you 
for sharing,

Amara

 
1332 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:15pm
Subject: Joe- time & path

 
  Dear Joe,
>
>Was one of the monks Phra Alan by chance? Also, do you know of a way to
>contact Nina? I passed through Nakhon Phanom just a few weeks ago.
>
Betty's been more efficient at looking out Nina's address (thanks Betty). 
When you look her up at her wonderful old Thai house and orchard, you'll 
find she knows quite a few of us here.... We all hope in time she'll be able 
to join!

I'm sure Phra Alan would be the same Phra Dhammadharo as he was 'around' at 
that time and supported by Jonothan and attending and holding discussions.

Robert is compiling a mini biography of him (is that right, Robert?). He 
disrobed in 1980 or 81, lived in Australia and Bangkok, but was sadly killed 
in a car accident about 10yrs ago...(I'm a bit fuzzy on dates). Some of us 
here attended his funeral services and scattering of ashes in Bkk, which for 
me was an unforgettable experience. I arrived in tears from the airport but 
after a little time with Khun Sujin, who was plucking flower petals, eating, 
smiling and talking about the dhamma in a very natural way, there were no 
more tears. Who was I crying for? Myself.

Sarah




 
1334 From: protectID 
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 2:26pm
Subject: Cheats

 
  Dear friends

Robert asked me to bring this little discussion we had , to the group

its about cheating ( vangchaka ) dhammas.



hi robert,


you can find descriptions abt cheating dhammas in some pali scripts
( visuddhimagga etc..i believe)

cheating dhammas arise in minds that are trying to practise the dhamma, who are
trying to do wholesome
 things ( with kusalacchanda- liking for doing wholesome things).
Its not that the person involved is trying to cheat somebody,
but the person is cheated himself by these dhammas that arise in his mind.
The person, after hearing dhamma and thinking on it , develops a certain
disliking towards the akusalas,
so those akusala dhammas will be recognised by the person once they arise in
their true nature.
So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a kusala.
These are the cheating dhammas.
The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops kusala but what hes
developing is an akusala.

An example is vichikiccha(doubt)..
 it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and searches about facts.
The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right thing
( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but hes blocked by none other
than the vichikiccha.

the raaga cheats as metta ,
the remorse cheats as compassion,

the maana cheats in many ways(ie mana arising due to the morals[seela])...

the mere tanha cheats as 'working for the well being of others'

the vyapaada cheats as 'working for the rights of the others'

like this..

knowing these will give the warning signs when the mind is about to be cheated.


This is as far as i can describe
I will let you know where they appear in the thripitaka

rgds

gayan

dear robert,

another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness'
it cheats as 'panna'
but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without seeing the drawbacks
.

for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or trying to act like no
offence is done ..etc..


rgds

 
1335 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 2:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Mn,
Many thanks for your question, for it is one we all grapple (if that's the
correct word) with. How is the effort of a meditator different from that of
one practicing vipassana/satipatthana?
I think the answer lies in sampajanna. If sati arises in the course of
pondering, not just aimless thinking, but real pondering on a particular
question, text, quote, etc, and the 4 sampajanna are conditioned to arise,
then panna will also arise. If panna does indeed arise, then it is like a
kind of test or method of checking whether the practise is correct. If one
meditates in the conventional manner and no panna seems to arise under those
conditions, then the practice is not correct. But, on the other hand, if
pondering does indeed become the condition for sati, then conditioning
sampajanna to arise, which then conditions panna to arise, then it is
correct, it is being proven.

This is the way I understand it. Please comment and correct me if there is
wrong view here.

With metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID







----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Kirkpatrick 
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear


>
> --- Dear Mike.
> >
> > "This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma:
> > If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously
> > due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to
> > viriya or vayama, e.g., play?  That is, is 'effort' as
> > conventionally understood just an illusion?  How does
> > the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding
> > of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at
> > the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising
> > with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these
> > dhammas are uncontrollable?"
>
> I would have a few things to say about this (and of course Jon
> will too, and others I hope). But in the meantime could you give
> us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go to the heart
> of how we understand the Dhamma and what right practice is.
> Robert
> >
> > I realize this is a different question from the
> > original.  Hope I'm not being obtuse!
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > mn
> >
>

 
1336 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

 
  >
> > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert about
> > paticca
> > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for quite
> > a while, but
> > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle as
> > though it were
> > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then
> > clinging, then
> > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to cetasikas
> > arising
> > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every citta,
> > ignorance with
> > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!
> >
> > Dear sarah,
>Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the
>paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with some
>links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely co-nascent)
>other links are  more difficult to fathom. The paticcasamupadda
>is sublime because it is not only referring to the  present
>moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives.
>Robert.
>
>
Robert,

here goes!

My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the paticca 
samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the conditions which 
'decide' what reality will arise at what time are extremely complex. We can 
only get little glimpses through our studies of paccaya (conditions).

One problem, as I see it, is that many people read and study the paticca 
samuppada with a view to first being aware of say contact, then of say 
feeling and then of say tanha... following the order of paticca samuppada. 
Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to understand these links, 
in practical terms, we need to understand the characteristics of these and 
many, many other realities more and more precisely so that awareness and 
understanding can do their job of being aware and  knowing the realities 
WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order.

It's also important to understand that at any given moment a citta arises 
with many different cetasikas (even though only one can be known at a time). 
So while people may think that at one moment there is phassa (contact) and 
the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, they misunderstand that 
phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. This is not to say that the phassa 
with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at this moment. If 
only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata paccaya 
(conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd think 
annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but i'd need to give 
all this more thought! There are also many conditions which would link the 
phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by pacchajat 
(postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition) conditions 
and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very fascinating, but I'm only 
a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!

Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how paticca 
samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta through last 
life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain just a 
single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to get a little 
glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the development of 
understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual and usually 
with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about avijja...(sorry, I can't 
add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until avijja 
(ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with the citta 
from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta (when we say 
there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those moments as anusaya 
(latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala citta has 
passed.....

Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the matter and I'm 
not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. Pls correct 
any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see that some of 
us are a little slow....

Sarah


 
1337 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:05pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Mike

In an earlier post you said-


> Two points:  
> 
> (a)If I'm not mistaken, khanti (patient endurance)
> is
> only khanti if it arises in reaction to something
> that
> might otherwise cause the arising of dosa, not
> lobha. 
> If that is so, is there another parami--maybe
> upekkha,
> or sacca--maybe just panna--that might arise
> similarly
> in reaction to something that might otherwise cause
> the arising of lobha?
> 
> (b) Even if there is, is there a point to striving
> for
> the arising of either of these parami?  If there is,
> I'd very much like to know how to go about it.  But
> in
> fact, won't they only arise when accumulations in
> the
> present citta (and other conditions) allow them to
> arise?

I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on your point
(b), so allow me to say that, if I understand you
correctly, you are spot on here.  Kusala dhammas can
only arise to the extent (both as to frequency and
intensity) that they have been developed.  There is no
point in trying to 'have' any particular form of
kusala or to 'use' it as a tool for whatever purpose.

There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is
kusala.  This was so before we became interested in
the dhamma, and remains so now.  This is because we
have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala.  This
is not something to be seen as a cause for regret, but
simply something to accept and face up to.

It takes courage to do this, since it goes against all
our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to
what spiritual development is all about.  But once
accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it
means that we don't really expect anything other than
akusala.  And once we understand that the task is not
to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties
(including the akusala ones) as they are, we realise
that it doesn't really matter anyway.

Jonothan

 
1338 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:47pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats

 
  Gayan

This is very interesting, and I look forward to
learning more about it.

Just a preliminary query.  Are these 'cheaters' in any
way comparable to the 'near enemies'?  I recall that
many kusala cetasikas have a near and a far enemy.

Jonothan


--- protectID wrote: > 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear friends
> 
> Robert asked me to bring this little discussion we
> had , to the group
> 
> its about cheating ( vangchaka ) dhammas.
> 
> 
> 
> hi robert,
> 
> 
> you can find descriptions abt cheating dhammas in
> some pali scripts
> ( visuddhimagga etc..i believe)
> 
> cheating dhammas arise in minds that are trying to
> practise the dhamma, who are
> trying to do wholesome
>  things ( with kusalacchanda- liking for doing
> wholesome things).
> Its not that the person involved is trying to cheat
> somebody,
> but the person is cheated himself by these dhammas
> that arise in his mind.
> The person, after hearing dhamma and thinking on it
> , develops a certain
> disliking towards the akusalas,
> so those akusala dhammas will be recognised by the
> person once they arise in
> their true nature.
> So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a
> kusala.
> These are the cheating dhammas.
> The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops
> kusala but what hes
> developing is an akusala.
> 
> An example is vichikiccha(doubt)..
>  it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and
> searches about facts.
> The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right
> thing
> ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but
> hes blocked by none other
> than the vichikiccha.
> 
> the raaga cheats as metta ,
> the remorse cheats as compassion,
> 
> the maana cheats in many ways(ie mana arising due to
> the morals[seela])...
> 
> the mere tanha cheats as 'working for the well being
> of others'
> 
> the vyapaada cheats as 'working for the rights of
> the others'
> 
> like this..
> 
> knowing these will give the warning signs when the
> mind is about to be cheated.
> 
> 
> This is as far as i can describe
> I will let you know where they appear in the
> thripitaka
> 
> rgds
> 
> gayan
> 
> dear robert,
> 
> another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness'
> it cheats as 'panna'
> but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill
> without seeing the drawbacks
> .
> 
> for training people this may come when trying to
> 'skip' or trying to act like no
> offence is done ..etc..
> 
> 
> rgds
> 
> 

 
1339 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:53pm
Subject: sampajanna

 
  >1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance:
>clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this
>understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think
>deeply, about whatever question arises.
>2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would
>understand whether one is ready to understand or not.
>3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear 
>comprehension
>of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door
>processes.
>4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At 
>this
>point, panna would then arise.
>Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in the
>process of satipatthana.
>

Betty,

this is clear and helpful, thankyou!

sappaya- 'one would understand whether one is ready to understand or 
not'.....very profound....Would you follow up and transcribe what K.Sujin 
says, if it's convenient.....I've actually had discussions before with her 
on the sampajanna but don't remember it being put in this way....Perhaps we 
could ask at this moment when we're enjoying the lobha or rather the lobha 
is enjoying its object, are we really interested in understanding it? Most 
of the time, not! Amara wrote about how wonderful life would be to be freed 
from samsara and 'most importantly from one's self', but are we really 
ready? I wonder?! What do you think, Amara? At least we know you don't mind 
giving up the Paris shows!!

gocara- yes, this is why it's so important to hear and consider all 
realities, to know exactly what awareness can be aware of and what 
understanding can understand.

best wishes,
Sarah
.

 
1340 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:11pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear mn,
A similar question came up just yesterday. I was reflecting
about the deliberate attempt to be aware of nama and rupa,
and about how it was in fact dodging the real issue.
I then reflected on the importance of cetana.
I thought that the cetana should be directed towards
the real issue. Say if I was looking at a beautiful woman, and
suddenly I began seeing that object as being composed of
parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha that
initially arose? And since cetana is also not-self, what can be
done? I concluded that present cetana would condition future
cetana, and at this point I left it to'dhamma'. Perhaps I was
and am avoiding something and would like to hear comments
from group members on this.But I don't have the feeling of
being caught in a vicious circle as you do. I somehow feel
that eventhough my understanding is only intellectual at
this point, I have no other recourse than to read, consider
and discuss(this was my cetana just a moment ago, now
the cetana is different, now I'm blur about intention, now
I'll just finish my post and wait for a reply).

Anumoddhana,
Sukin.


"m. nease" wrote:

> Dear Robert,
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
>  wrote:
>
> > could you give
> > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go
> > to the heart
> > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right
> > practice is.
> > Robert
>
> I thought so.  My problem is that I don't seem to have
> much in the way of thoughts to offer.  I really do
> understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that
> 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the
> point, sammavayama), is already a kind of
> sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is
> something that 'I' can exert.  And that even the
> effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and
> subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and
> dependent on present accumulations.  And yet
> everything seems to depend on this very cetana.  That
> is, that if awareness is arising now, it is
> conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and
> that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will
> have been conditioned by present cetana (among other
> things).
>
> I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very
> superficial, theoretical level.  But even on this
> level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it.
> I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around
> in this particular cul-de-sac.  Thanks for your help!
>
> Bedtime for me.  I look forward to your reply.
>
> mn
>

 
1341 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:28pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear mn,
ps: I also thought besides having cetana of tackling
the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached
to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may be
'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel stuck.
But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!?
What cetana has arisen and what will arise?
It does seem circular now.
Help someone!

Sukin.


"m. nease" wrote:

> Dear Robert,
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
>  wrote:
>
> > could you give
> > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go
> > to the heart
> > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right
> > practice is.
> > Robert
>
> I thought so.  My problem is that I don't seem to have
> much in the way of thoughts to offer.  I really do
> understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that
> 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the
> point, sammavayama), is already a kind of
> sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is
> something that 'I' can exert.  And that even the
> effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and
> subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and
> dependent on present accumulations.  And yet
> everything seems to depend on this very cetana.  That
> is, that if awareness is arising now, it is
> conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and
> that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will
> have been conditioned by present cetana (among other
> things).
>
> I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very
> superficial, theoretical level.  But even on this
> level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it.
> I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around
> in this particular cul-de-sac.  Thanks for your help!
>
> Bedtime for me.  I look forward to your reply.
>
> mn
>
>

 
1342 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 4:24pm
Subject: Two more from Varee

 
  We have put up two more 'words' in A Few Words, a section in 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>: Dhamma and Pannatti.  They are both 
excerpts from the 'Summary' in the advanced section, 

Do have a look, (see if you remember reading them already!)

Amara

 
1343 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:01pm
Subject: Re: sampajanna

 
  Amara wrote about how wonderful life would be to 
be freed 
> from samsara and 'most importantly from one's self', but are we 
really 
> ready? I wonder?! What do you think, Amara? 


Dear Sarah,

Actually I said how wonderful life 'must' be because we can only 
wonder about it!  But I guess we need all our faculties to study 
until panna is so strong it steps in and does its duty at which 
point no one needs to give up anything, I think.  But that is only 
for the arahanta, everyone else needs to keep studying, so instead 
of repressing the self as they do with samatha, we should face our 
darkest side as they arise, as well as our brightest, until we have 
finished studying, with perfect panna of realities as they really 
are.  As it is, we should all keep walking step by step and not 
worry where we are because at least we are one step closer to the 
mountain top!

Amara

 
1344 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 5:20pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, effort, intention

 
  Dear Mike,

You wrote " 
"So I guess the answer is to continue to try to
cultivate conditions, in the present, for the natural
arising of panna in the future.
This seems to me to pose a (no doubt false) dilemma:
If kusala citta arise (and subside) only spontaneously
due to previously 'created' conditions, what role to
viriya or vayama, e.g., play?  That is, is 'effort' as
conventionally understood just an illusion?  How does
the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding
of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at
the meditation center (aside from, perhaps, arising
with vs. without panna), assuming that all of these
dhammas are uncontrollable?
I really do
> understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that
> 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the
> point, sammavayama), is already a kind of
> sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is
> something that 'I' can exert.  And that even the
> effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and
> subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and
> dependent on present accumulations.  And yet
> everything seems to depend on this very cetana.  That
> is, that if awareness is arising now, it is
> conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and
> that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will
> have been conditioned by present cetana (among other
> things)."

These reflections of yours are indicative of a certain level of
understanding. Why did this dilemma arise in the first place?
Obviously because you are starting to realise that satipatthana
is not such an easy path to understand and that dint of will
cannot make it occur. Well, this may not please you, but I think
it will seem even harder after a little more time. You write
"yet everything seems to depend on this very cetana". I don't
think so. Cetana is not a factor of the eight-factored path.
Remember that the eight factored path is a name for the
cetasikas that arise during satipatthana and that culminate in
the experience of nibbana. Usually there are actually only five
factors, cetasikas. Cetana is not among them. If we give
preponderance to one cetasika I think this indicates an idea of
control,somewhere. All cetasikas are conditioned by various
factors. Cetana, volition, intention, is one of the
sabbacittasadharana (universals) that arise with every citta. In
other words cetana is always present - although each cetana is
different from the last. Cetana can be of the 4 jatis of kusala,
kusala, vipaka and kiriya. Even when we are in deep sleep there
is cetana.  (I can give more details along these lines if you
want me to?)
Perhaps what you mean by cetana is intention in the usual sense
- so for example I try to be aware of seeing, try to understand
its true nature. In that case there are many cetasikas involved
(classified under sankhara khanda)- not just cetana- although
cetana may be predominant. What is actually occuring? Let me
give some scenarios as rough (very rough) illustrations: I'll
use "I" a lot just to make it conversational- but remember no
"I" in reality.
1. I concentrate on seeing, trying to separate the colour(rupa)
from the seeing (nama) - but with a citta rooted in lobha of
some degree that is hoping to really understand. (the wrong way)

2. I concentrate on seeing but with a citta rooted in lobha and
ditthi - I think I can control sati, samadhi and the other
cetasikas - (wrong again).
3. I do nothing and just trust that one day sati and panna will
arise out of the blue. (the opposite extreme).
4. I study in a very detached way colour or seeing or any other
dhamma that is predominant at any door but without any hope for
result or feeling that I can bring up sati. I realise that sati
arises very seldom and that even this apparently detached study
is still 99.99999% done with cittas rooted in lobha and moha. If
I feel that I can control anything I know this shows a weakness
in theoretical understanding. I am not sure if there was any
sati at all actually.
I have a slight headache right now and so the tightness and
vibration in that area are apparent - if there is awareness then
these dhammas are seen without aversion. But how easily the idea
of "my awareness" comes in. And  (assuming there was awareness)
awareness of these elements could have been of the type that is
samattha (the elements) or of vipassana - which was it?
My son was just talking to me and I was studying the doorways of
ear and eye. Studying sound and colour and breaking down,
dissecting the concepts of "son" and "me". Sound is not son,
colour is not son. This is what I would call "considering in the
present moment"- not clear understanding.
Just now I looked up. But there is no "me". The commentary says
(p121 Fruits of recuseship), talking about looking ahead or
looking aside, "the eye is a support condition : forms are an
object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive
support, absence, and disapperance condition; light is a
decisive support condition; feeling etc are  conascence
conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned
in the assemblage of these conditions. Therein, who is it that
looks ahead? Who looks aside?"
Realities are arising at the six doors all the time. We need to
learn to see that a moment at one door is different from a
moment at another. There has to be study, investigation of these
dhammas, but in the right way - and that is not easy, it is
conditioned, it needs accumulations and study. In fact the
meditation centers and the different methods, Goenka, Mahasi etc
have got it right when they emphasize direct study of paramattha
dhammas. The thing is, though, is that effort and intention can
so easily be akusala, tied up in subtle ideas of self and
achievement. 
 
You wrote "How does
the 'effort' to be aware of the arising and subsiding
of citta differ from the 'effort' of the meditator at
the meditation center "
 Understanding of arising and ceasing is an advanced stage of
vipassana that comes after the first stage where the difference
betwen nama and rupa are clearly seen. Everyone can see that
cittas change and that rupas change. If we make it our life
study we will see this change incessantly. Nonetheless this is
not what is meant by arising and ceasing at the level of
vipassana . 
Khun sujin's descriptions of vipassana nanas make it clear that
at this level there is no idea at all of anyone making it
happen. In fact it happens in a flash - it cannot be controlled.
the mind door is revealed and the difference between nama and
rupas is clearly seen. I can write more about this if you have
specific questions.
Well Mike I wrote something- was it helpful? It was a little off
the topic, it went here and there. 
Robert



 
1345 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:33pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats

 
  Dear gayan,
Yes i find this intriguing. If you can find refererences please
tell us.
There is an interesting bit in a commentary (I forget where). I
might have a detail or two slightly wrong. It talks about the
one who has studied and developed wisdom to some degree. This
one might consider "well, merely the thought of giving is
kusala" and then decide to save his time and not give! It says
this one is made ill by the medicine and is almost impossible to
cure. 
It is a good warning- sometimes we are liable to go to extremes
and think 'well everything is anatta - why do anything- if it
was meant to happen it will happen" and "so I abused him, its
anatta, can't help it". Always ways to leave the middle path.
robert
--- protectID wrote: > 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear friends
> 
> Robert asked me to bring this little discussion we had , to
> the group
> 
> its about cheating ( vangchaka ) dhammas.
> 
> 
> 
> hi robert,
> 
> 
> you can find descriptions abt cheating dhammas in some pali
> scripts
> ( visuddhimagga etc..i believe)
> 
> cheating dhammas arise in minds that are trying to practise
> the dhamma, who are
> trying to do wholesome
>  things ( with kusalacchanda- liking for doing wholesome
> things).
> Its not that the person involved is trying to cheat somebody,
> but the person is cheated himself by these dhammas that arise
> in his mind.
> The person, after hearing dhamma and thinking on it , develops
> a certain
> disliking towards the akusalas,
> so those akusala dhammas will be recognised by the person once
> they arise in
> their true nature.
> So these akusala dhammas will arise disguising as a kusala.
> These are the cheating dhammas.
> The person himself is cheated, he thinks he develops kusala
> but what hes
> developing is an akusala.
> 
> An example is vichikiccha(doubt)..
>  it cheats appearing as the dhamma that inquires and searches
> about facts.
> The person whos cheated thinks hes doing the right thing
> ( he may give examples from 'kalama sutta' too..)but hes
> blocked by none other
> than the vichikiccha.
> 
> the raaga cheats as metta ,
> the remorse cheats as compassion,
> 
> the maana cheats in many ways(ie mana arising due to the
> morals[seela])...
> 
> the mere tanha cheats as 'working for the well being of
> others'
> 
> the vyapaada cheats as 'working for the rights of the others'
> 
> like this..
> 
> knowing these will give the warning signs when the mind is
> about to be cheated.
> 
> 
> This is as far as i can describe
> I will let you know where they appear in the thripitaka
> 
> rgds
> 
> gayan
> 
> dear robert,
> 
> another cheating dhamma is 'cunning-ness'
> it cheats as 'panna'
> but its not panna cos cunning person uses his skill without
> seeing the drawbacks
> .
> 
> for training people this may come when trying to 'skip' or
> trying to act like no
> offence is done ..etc..
> 
> 
> rgds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


 
1346 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Joe- time & path

 
  --- > 
> I'm sure Phra Alan would be the same Phra Dhammadharo as he
> was 'around' at 
> that time and supported by Jonothan and attending and holding
> discussions.
> 
> Robert is compiling a mini biography of him (is that right,
> Robert?). 
Yes sarah - only about three pages. I am so behind with so many
things. One day!!! And Joe - if you have any memories that I
could add (preferably a nice anecdote well crafted so I can slip
it in with minimal thinking on my behalf)I much appreciate it-
you too sarah if you have time.
Robert


 
1347 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:02pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

 
  Dear sarah,
Your post made it clear just how hard it is to understand
paticcasamupada. You relate it alot to the paccaya in the
Patthana and this is my approach too. Of all the aspects of
Dhamma, paticcasamupada is the hardest for me to intellectually
grasp. I think it is as you said that only by understandinmg
realities can we begin to see it. You noted "Yes, Kom, it's a
good point. Until
> avijja 
> (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with
> the citta 
> from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta
> (when we say 
> there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those
> moments as anusaya 
> (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala
> citta has 
> passed.....
> 
Even when we have kusala - if it is not of the type that is
satipatthana there is no understanding of paticasamupada and
thus the wheel just gets another twist. Tough stuff.
Robert
Robert
--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote: > >
> > > Mike, I'm just reminded of yr discussions with Robert
> about
> > > paticca
> > > samuppada. I just want to mention a blindspot I had for
> quite
> > > a while, but
> > > I'm not suggesting you do! I used to read about the cycle
> as
> > > though it were
> > > an order of realities taking place. 'First ignorance, then
> > > clinging, then
> > > feeling etc' Of course, it is in fact referring to
> cetasikas
> > > arising
> > > together at the same time. Feeling arises with every
> citta,
> > > ignorance with
> > > all cittas except kusala ones and clinging with most too!
> > >
> > > Dear sarah,
> >Perhaps you could add more details about this? What are the
> >paccaya that are co-nascent? We can see this clearly with
> some
> >links such as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa (defintely
> co-nascent)
> >other links are  more difficult to fathom. The
> paticcasamupadda
> >is sublime because it is not only referring to the  present
> >moment but also to a longer series, even linking lives.
> >Robert.
> >
> >
> Robert,
> 
> here goes!
> 
> My post above may have been misleading. We know (?) that the
> paticca 
> samuppada refers to many links and intervals and the
> conditions which 
> 'decide' what reality will arise at what time are extremely
> complex. We can 
> only get little glimpses through our studies of paccaya
> (conditions).
> 
> One problem, as I see it, is that many people read and study
> the paticca 
> samuppada with a view to first being aware of say contact,
> then of say 
> feeling and then of say tanha... following the order of
> paticca samuppada. 
> Although it is very helpful, at least in theory, to understand
> these links, 
> in practical terms, we need to understand the characteristics
> of these and 
> many, many other realities more and more precisely so that
> awareness and 
> understanding can do their job of being aware and  knowing the
> realities 
> WHEN THEY APPEAR, i.e. not in any special order.
> 
> It's also important to understand that at any given moment a
> citta arises 
> with many different cetasikas (even though only one can be
> known at a time). 
> So while people may think that at one moment there is phassa
> (contact) and 
> the next moment there is feeling (vedana) and so on, they
> misunderstand that 
> phassa and vedana arise with EVERY citta. This is not to say
> that the phassa 
> with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at
> this moment. If 
> only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata
> paccaya 
> (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd
> think 
> annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but
> i'd need to give 
> all this more thought! There are also many conditions which
> would link the 
> phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by
> pacchajat 
> (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition)
> conditions 
> and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very
> fascinating, but I'm only 
> a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!
> 
> Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how
> paticca 
> samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta
> through last 
> life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to
> explain just a 
> single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to
> get a little 
> glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the
> development of 
> understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual
> and usually 
> with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about
> avijja...(sorry, I can't 
> add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until
> avijja 
> (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with
> the citta 
> from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta
> (when we say 
> there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those
> moments as anusaya 
> (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala
> citta has 
> passed.....
> 
> Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the
> matter and I'm 
> not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu.
> Pls correct 
> any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see
> that some of 
> us are a little slow....
> 
> Sarah
>

 
1348 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:54pm
Subject: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened?

 
  Dear Group,
I was reading the commentary to Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali
(the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of
hindrances) 6th sutta.
One interesting story about the thera Gamantapabbharavasi
mahasivatthera . He taught the Tipitaka with regard to its
meaning (atthakatha) and pali. Depending on him 60,000 bhikhus
attained arahatship. But one of them later wondered about his
teacher's attainment and found he was not even a sotapanna. The
student by hinting let the teacher know this. (the teacher later
took on all 13 dhutanga(including never sitting or lying down!!)
and thirty years later became enlightened.)
I thought this was interesting to know about. This teacher was
one who carefully taught the Buddha's words and didn't try to
put in his own opinions. 
Robert



 
1349 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:18pm
Subject: Re: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened?

 
  But one of them later wondered about his
> teacher's attainment and found he was not even a sotapanna. The
> student by hinting let the teacher know this. 


Dear Robert,

Sorry to be a dunce, what did the student 'let the teacher know', 
that he 'knew this' or that 'he was not even a sotapanna', although 
he thought he had attained something?  Just a detail but I wondered 
about it,

Amara

 
1350 From: A T   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:19pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Jonothan,

   Thank you for this useful post.  It's talking directly to me.

>There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is
>kusala.  This was so before we became interested in
>the dhamma, and remains so now.  This is because we
>have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala.  This
>is not something to be seen as a cause for regret, but
>simply something to accept and face up to.

   How true!

>It takes courage to do this, since it goes against all
>our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to
>what spiritual development is all about.

   Since joining this group, most of the time that I can be aware of what's 
going on within me (which is rare any way), I see a lot of dosa and lobha.  
I even see that if the color of dosa, lobha, and avijja is dark, I'm really 
very dark!  Then, I think that if adosa, alobha, and panna is light like the 
Arahant, indeed, I have a long long way to go.

>But once
>accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it
>means that we don't really expect anything other than
>akusala.  And once we understand that the task is not
>to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties
>(including the akusala ones) as they are, we realise
>that it doesn't really matter anyway.

   Thank you for reminding me about accepting akusala realities.
>
>Jonothan

Alex

 
1351 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Sukin,
Thank you for your reflections. Great to see you grappling with
these profound matters that are of interest to all of us.
--- "Sukinderpal Narula  wrote: > Dear
mn,
> A similar question came up just yesterday. I was reflecting
> about the deliberate attempt to be aware of nama and rupa,
> and about how it was in fact dodging the real issue.
> I then reflected on the importance of cetana.
> I thought that the cetana should be directed towards
> the real issue. Say if I was looking at a beautiful woman, and
> suddenly I began seeing that object as being composed of
> parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha that
> initially arose? And since cetana is also not-self, what can
> be
> done?"
There are two groups of kammatthana (meditation subjects)of
either nama and rupa (i.e the khandas, the dhatus, the ayatanas)
or the forty objects of samattha. Your gocara - sampajana
(resort) in this case was nama and rupa. When we look at a
beautiful woman if the gocara-sampajana (resort for clear
comprehension)is not abandoned then there will be a dissection
of what is seen, there will be guarding of the sense doors.
Seeing sees visible object - it sees only colours but so quickly
afterwards minddoor processes form up the idea of shape and form
and woman. If no awareness arises there is immediately the
"grasping of details" such as lips, hair, smile, dress etc etc.
and so lobha strongly arises (avijja darts among thingsd that
are not real). (See Sujin Boriharnwanaket Realities and Concepts
p27). If the kamatthana is not relinquished then there is study
of namas and rupas, guarding of the doors, and an understanding
of paramattha dhammas. It doesn't matter if lobha arises - it
can be understood too. Or there can still be study of seeing and
colour - in this way there is the gradual development of wsidom
that can distingush between concept and reality. Seeing a
beautiful woman is a good test - we can see the difference that
distinguishing concept from reality makes.
Robert

I concluded that present cetana would condition future
> cetana, and at this point I left it to'dhamma'. Perhaps I was
> and am avoiding something and would like to hear comments
> from group members on this.But I don't have the feeling of
> being caught in a vicious circle as you do. I somehow feel
> that eventhough my understanding is only intellectual at
> this point, I have no other recourse than to read, consider
> and discuss(this was my cetana just a moment ago, now
> the cetana is different, now I'm blur about intention, now
> I'll just finish my post and wait for a reply).
> 
> Anumoddhana,
> Sukin.
> 
> 
> "m. nease" wrote:
> 
> > Dear Robert,
> >
> > Thanks for your response.
> >
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > could you give
> > > us some of your thoughts on it? These questions go
> > > to the heart
> > > of how we understand the Dhamma and what right
> > > practice is.
> > > Robert
> >
> > I thought so.  My problem is that I don't seem to have
> > much in the way of thoughts to offer.  I really do
> > understand, on a theoretcial level at least, that
> > 'attempting' to arouse, say, viriya (or more to the
> > point, sammavayama), is already a kind of
> > sakkyaditthi--that is, the idea that effort is
> > something that 'I' can exert.  And that even the
> > effort to be aware of nama and rupa arising and
> > subsiding in the present moment is impersonal, and
> > dependent on present accumulations.  And yet
> > everything seems to depend on this very cetana.  That
> > is, that if awareness is arising now, it is
> > conditioned by past cetana (among other things), and
> > that if awareness is to arise in the future, it will
> > have been conditioned by present cetana (among other
> > things).
> >
> > I realize I'm dealing with all of this on a very
> > superficial, theoretical level.  But even on this
> > level, I can't seem to escape the circularity of it.
> > I have a feeling I'm not the first to stumble around
> > in this particular cul-de-sac.  Thanks for your help!
> >
> > Bedtime for me.  I look forward to your reply.
> >
> > mn
> >
> 
> 



 
1352 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:37pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened?

 
  It doesn't say Amara. The teacher was always busy with learning
and teaching. After  the student flew off in the air the teacher
became alarmed and took on the dhutanga - which he steadfastly
kept for 30 rains until he became arahant.
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> But one of them later wondered about his
> > teacher's attainment and found he was not even a sotapanna.
> The
> > student by hinting let the teacher know this. 
> 
> 
> Dear Robert,
> 
> Sorry to be a dunce, what did the student 'let the teacher
> know', 
> that he 'knew this' or that 'he was not even a sotapanna',
> although 
> he thought he had attained something?  Just a detail but I
> wondered 
> about it,
> 
> Amara
> 
> 


 
1356 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:55pm
Subject: Re: Do you have to have an enlightened teacher to get enlightened?

 
  > The teacher was always busy with learning
> and teaching. After  the student flew off in the air the teacher
> became alarmed and took on the dhutanga - which he steadfastly
> kept for 30 rains until he became arahant.


Dear Robert,

Thanks for a great reminder!  So often the 'fun' of learning the 
intricate and complex relationship of realities, especially among 
the namadhamma, can absorb us in another kind of attachment, and 
instead of realizing that realities are just that, nama and rupa, 
and not the self, we might think we are so great to have understood 
the theories-  But that's what it only is, more namadhamma that 
organized, inderstood and remembered thoughts about realities-  What 
about the realities that are appearing now?  Are we aware of them as 
just thoughts, just sight, sound, touch?  Otherwise the theories, no 
matter how profound and truthful, are absolutely useless without 
practical momentary testing, experiencing with all our faculties of 
the six dvara.  Only the knowledge of the characteristics of 
realities that appear to us could accumulate panna as things as they 
really are.

Thanks for the story and anumodana,

Amara

 
1358 From: protectID 
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:02pm
Subject: Delayed Responses

 
  Dear Friends,

Thank you, Jon, Sukin, Robert, Betty for your wonderful responses.  I 
don't have time to respond this morning, which inspires a great 
desire to stay home from work read, ponder and reply...

Gayan, thanks for your very useful post on cheaters (vanghaka)!  
Never heard of these before, but something tells me I know them quite 
well just the same (and am pleased to reflect that it's they, not I, 
who have been doing the cheating...!)

Mary, very glad to see you here (again)--thanks for the splendid 
icon, and I do hope you'll hang in long enough to get over the 
vocabulary hump.  It's more than well worth it...

Anumodana, All,

mn

 
1359 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:08pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sampajanna

 
  Dear Sarah,
Great lobha feeling to know that my explanation of sampajanna was helpful to
you. That is basically what Achaan said, but I will ask Amara to send you a
tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your mailing address?
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID






----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:53 AM
Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] sampajanna


> >1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance:
> >clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without
this
> >understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think
> >deeply, about whatever question arises.
> >2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would
> >understand whether one is ready to understand or not.
> >3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear
> >comprehension
> >of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door
> >processes.
> >4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At
> >this
> >point, panna would then arise.
> >Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in
the
> >process of satipatthana.
> >
>
> Betty,
>
> this is clear and helpful, thankyou!
>
> sappaya- 'one would understand whether one is ready to understand or
> not'.....very profound....Would you follow up and transcribe what K.Sujin
> says, if it's convenient.....I've actually had discussions before with her
> on the sampajanna but don't remember it being put in this way....Perhaps
we
> could ask at this moment when we're enjoying the lobha or rather the lobha
> is enjoying its object, are we really interested in understanding it? Most
> of the time, not! Amara wrote about how wonderful life would be to be
freed
> from samsara and 'most importantly from one's self', but are we really
> ready? I wonder?! What do you think, Amara? At least we know you don't
mind
> giving up the Paris shows!!
>
> gocara- yes, this is why it's so important to hear and consider all
> realities, to know exactly what awareness can be aware of and what
> understanding can understand.
>
> best wishes,
> Sarah
> .
>
>

 
1360 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:10pm
Subject: Re: to 'sit' or not to 'sit'?

 
  > p.s  Group, for some reason, some of my posts are being put on the 
list in 
> duplicate. I hasten to add this is not because Hotmail, Egroups or
I 
think 
> they warrant this special attention....And I doubt the devas do 
either, 
> Robert! if it doesn't correct soon, I'll change the server. 


Dear Sarah,

I wouldn't worry about it, or change servers just yet, it used to 
happen to me a lot, I remember once I think I had about eight of 
mine appearing, followed by another the next day or something to 
that effect.  I think it happened again a few days ago, in fact, so 
I really think it is e-group's problem, but it's nothing harmful, 
even if a bit embarrassing, but otherwise their service is so great, 
I think it more than makes up for it!

Thanks again for everything and anumodana,

Amara

 
1361 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:26pm
Subject: Re: sampajanna

 
  I will ask Amara to 
send you a
> tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your mailing 
address?


Dear Betty and friends,

I know everyone thinks I have a set of the English discussion tapes 
because I edit them for the foundation, but I am sorry to say I 
haven't kept any copies for myself, so I have none at home except 
for the ones I'm working on.  It would be much better to ask the 
people at the foundation to send them to you, they have very fast 
copying machines sent from America by our friends of the San 
Francisco and Frsno areas, and the complete set of the tapes already 
edited, but they might have a heavy workload and might take some 
time send the tapes out.  

Having said that, especially for this group I will try to get the 
tapes to you myself, I might have to borrow the masters and copy 
them on my own inferior machine, which might get to you faster or 
not, but will not be as professionally done.  By the way Betty, I am 
sending you a note off-list, so see you in a few!

Amara

 
1362 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 9:32pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sampajanna

 
  Dear Amara,
While we are talking about tapes. I have sent off sets to
leonardo, Alex and Mike. i am going to send some to sotujanna
soon. But as O is coming to Bangkok I was wondering if you had
that set you mentyioned from M.P. that you were going to give to
Betty and whether you could arrange for the foundation to make
duplaicates for O and her group. OI chose those tapes and they
have good talks by Phra Dhammadhra and Ajahn Sujin. In fact it
is worth making a special set of those and distributing them
from the foundation.
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> 
>  I will ask Amara to 
> send you a
> > tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your
> mailing 
> address?
> 
> 
> Dear Betty and friends,
> 
> I know everyone thinks I have a set of the English discussion
> tapes 
> because I edit them for the foundation, but I am sorry to say
> I 
> haven't kept any copies for myself, so I have none at home
> except 
> for the ones I'm working on.  It would be much better to ask
> the 
> people at the foundation to send them to you, they have very
> fast 
> copying machines sent from America by our friends of the San 
> Francisco and Frsno areas, and the complete set of the tapes
> already 
> edited, but they might have a heavy workload and might take
> some 
> time send the tapes out.  
> 
> Having said that, especially for this group I will try to get
> the 
> tapes to you myself, I might have to borrow the masters and
> copy 
> them on my own inferior machine, which might get to you faster
> or 
> not, but will not be as professionally done.  By the way
> Betty, I am 
> sending you a note off-list, so see you in a few!
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
1363 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:35pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] to 'sit' or not to 'sit'?

 
  >Dear Sarah,
>
>Thanks for reminding me not to get stuck in scripts and stories.
>As a person who doesn't wait for praise to come from outside but
>happily does it to himself, I've still got a lot of accumulations to sift
>through. I can imagine that attending to moment to moment realities
>will generate best course of action to be taken. But just as gold is
>so hard to find in the midst of so much sand, I only hope that I can
>stick with this group long enough to find enough gold, and then not
>to think about staying or leaving it....See how I like to create stories?

Sukin, it's good you realize they are stories...many people don't get that 
far and mistakes the stories for realities. It's not so much a question of 
sifting through accumulations as just getting to know them a little better 
from time to time as understanding begins to grow...If we talk about 
attending to 'moment to moment realities' it sounds a little like self 
concentrating on or trying to catch a reality. It's better not to be too 
'ambitious', to study (intellectually first) about many, many realities, so 
they won't be confused with all those stories. Then, it's not a matter of 
not having the stories, but awareness can begin to be aware from time to 
time of a reality which is not a story. Sometimes I find "I" have been lost 
in a story for quite some time with no awareness and then I just laugh!


>Thanks again. My image of you is that of a wise and gentle person
>(another story? But it must have a good degree of truth, right?).
>

very occasionally to both, but thanks! (certainly not at those 'frazzled' 
moments!)

pls do stick with this group long enough to help us all get enlightened!

Sarah

p.s  Group, for some reason, some of my posts are being put on the list in 
duplicate. I hasten to add this is not because Hotmail, Egroups or I think 
they warrant this special attention....And I doubt the devas do either, 
Robert! if it doesn't correct soon, I'll change the server. meanwhile my 
apologies to you all.

>Anumoddhana,
>Sukin.
>
>
>Sarah Procter Abbott wrote:
>
> > Dear Sukin,
> >
> > sorry, the last one just zapped off on its own...not only yours that do
> > that, Robert!
> >
> > I was thinking back to this post of yours, Sukin, and I fully agree with
> > what Robert replied....No rules, O.K!
> >
> > If you feel like 'sitting', fine!  If you feel like karaoke, fine! No 
>one is
> > saying there can't be understanding while 'sitting'. Like Robert 
>suggested,
> > you may feel less bothered about it as understanding grows.  Sometimes 
>we
> > may decide to do X and just when we're about to start, end up doing Y. 
>It
> > just depends on conditions again. We think WE need to make decisions, 
>but
> > these are conditioned too! Robert wrote a good paragraph about how 
>whether
> > things go right or wrong doesn't depend on 'my' decisions.
> >
> > Realities and results are very complex and wondering about whether your
> > 'sitting' will hinder the development of understanding doesn't help. 
>Just
> > know it as another moment of thinking and leave it to conditions as to
> > whether you 'sit' or not at any given time.  I suspect that the more
> > understanding there is of anatta, the less inclined you'll be to 'sit' 
>for
> > your meditation...but not by forcing a change of lifestyle. The same 
>does
> > not apply to karaoke because there is no idea of it helping one's 
>practice!
> >
> > Let us know how it goes. If you have the idea of putting your feet in 
>two
> > boats, it's just that: an idea! When there is the idea of listening to
> > another aspect of your 'being', again it's just another story or idea!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Sarah
> >
> > Dear Robert,
> > >I was thinking this morning about my 'sitting'.
> > >Now it seems to me that I may infact be putting my feet
> > >in two boats. By taking the initiative to 'sit', I may be
> > >actually hindering the possibility of understanding. The
> > >activity seems to oppose 'consideration of dhammas'.
> > >Is it in fact 'wrong practice', a result of 'wrong view'?
> > >Should I stop it immediately or should I wait for panna
> > >to see the truth of it, rather than act on the basis of
> > >a vague understanding and seeming logical inference?
> > >
> > >Sukin.
> > >PS: I liked your;
> > >
> > > > Each moment, right now, is a new life -
> > > > every rupa and nama is new - and when conventional
> > > > death happens it will be just like this.
> > >
> > >'Conventional death', 'conventional birth'. It is relatively easy
> > >to view everything else in terms of 'convetional reality' as
> > >opposed to 'ultimate reality', but birth and death is so much
> > >taken for granted. Need to meditate on it more. Thanks.
> > >
> >
> > 
>


 
1364 From: protectID=Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:02pm
Subject: Re: colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Dear Jonothan,

   Thank you for sharing the information.  Last night, before going 
to bed, I opened my Majjhima Nikaya volume the first time since 
ordering from Amazon.com a few months ago, searching for No. 148.  
It's there!  I will re-read it so that I can understand it better.  
By then, maybe I'll understand what it says better to compare it with 
the Abhidhamma notes.

Metta,
Alex

---  Jonothan Abbott <protectID=045233234007158202180218164036129208> 
wrote:
> Alex
> 
> I've just found the passage I had in mind.  It is in
> the Discourse on the Six Senses (Majjhima Nikaya
> No.148).  It says-
> 
> 'Monks, visual consciousness arises because of eye and
> visible object, the meeting of the three is contact
> ...'
> 
> It then goes on to explain about akusala with regard
> to the experiences through the eye door.  And then the
> same for the other doorways.
> 
> As you can see, the treatment here, being a sutta, is
> slightly different.
> 
> Jonothan
> 
> 
> 
> --- A T  wrote: > Dear Jonothan,
> > 
> >    I've just looked up the information in my last
> > year Abhidhamma notes.
> > 
> > Cakkhuvinnana: seeing consciousness
> >    1. cakkhupasada: sensitive matter in the eye
> >    2. ruparammana: color as object
> >    3. aloka: light
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Sotavinnana: hearing consciousness
> >    1. sotapasada: sensitive matter in the ear
> >    2. saddarammana: sound as object
> >    3. vivarakasa: empty space in the ear
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Ganavinnana: smellig consciousness
> >    1. ganapasada: sensitive matter in the nose
> >    2. gandharammana: odor as object
> >    3. vayodhatu: wind
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Jivhavinnana: tasting consciousness
> >    1. jivhapasada: sensitive matter in the tongue
> >    2. rasarammana: taste as object
> >    3. apodhatu: water
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Kayavinnana: tangibility consciousness
> >    1. kayapasada: sensitive matter in the body
> >    2. photthabbarammana: hardness/softness,
> > heat/cold, 
> > straightness/crookedness as objects.
> >    3. thaddhapathavi: earth
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Manodhatu: mind element
> >    1. pancadvara: 5 doors
> >    2. pancarammana: form, sound, taste, and
> > tangibility
> >    3. hadayavatthu:  (English translation?)
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Manovinnanadhatu: mind-consciousness element
> >    1. manodvara: 19 cittas of bhavanga
> >    2. arammana: form, sound, taste, tangibility, and
> > dhamma
> >    3. hadayavatthu: (English translation?)
> >    4. manasikara: attention
> > 
> > Regards,
> > AT
> > =================================================
> > >From: Jonothan Abbott <protectID=045233234007158202180218164036129208>
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]
> > colour/paticcasamupada
> > >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:00:27 +0800 (CST)
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Robert Kirkpatrick
> > > wrote: >
> > >
> > > > Four conditions are given for cakkhuvinnana
> > (seeing
> > > > consciousness) to arise. These are the
> > > > cakkhupasasada
> > > > (sensitive matter in the eye) rupa
> > (colour)attention
> > > > or contact (I forget which) and light.
> > >
> > >
> > >Robert
> > >
> > >Yes, this is a very interesting topic.  Just a
> > query
> > >on the four conditions mentioned above.  I have
> > heard
> > >of there being 3 conditions namely-
> > >
> > >cakkhu-passada-rupa (= eyesense/base)
> > >vanno (?) (= visible object, also a rupa) and
> > >phassa (= contact, a cetasika)
> > >
> > >but not 4.  Are there 4 conditions for the other
> > >sense-doors also, eg for hearing?
> > >
> > > > Some people wonder about this because we are
> > used to
> > > > scientific explanations that classify colour as
> > part
> > > > of light. But the rupa that is colour is one of
> > the
> > > > eight inseparable rupas that make up even the
> > > > tiniest
> > > > atom. It is a complex subject even in the
> > > > fundamental
> > > > terms that the abhidhamma and commentaries use
> > and I
> > > > do not understand it fully. Khun sujin usually
> > talks
> > > > about visible object because this is just what
> > > > appears
> > > > to the eyedoor whether we think of it as colour
> > or
> > > > light or whatever. It is useful to know details
> > of
> > > > this topic, as seeing arises so often.
> > >
> > >It has always intrigued me that although (in
> > English,
> > >at least) we have  specific terms for the objects
> > >which are experienced through the ear and nose
> > doors
> > >(namely sound and smell) we have no corresponding
> > term
> > >for the object experienced through the eye door. I
> > >wonder if this is because we are so caught up in
> > the
> > >story of the experiences throught that doorway that
> > we
> > >never ever have the need to refer to the 'raw'
> > object
> > >as such.  So although we can, albeit at a thinking
> > >level, distinguish between sound experienced
> > through
> > >the ear-door (eg as loud or soft, pleasant or
> > >unpleasant) and the the 'story' of that sound (eg,
> > the
> > >meaning of words spoken and the identity of the
> > >speaker), this seems much more difficult in the
> > case
> > >of the visible object.  Even if we are given the
> > whole
> > >of the English language to describe the v-o, it's
> > >difficult to come up with any meaningful
> > description.
> > >
> > >This highlights the degree of ignorance we have
> > about
> > >v-o.
> > >
> > >Jonothan
> > >
> > >

 
1365 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:12pm
Subject: Re: sampajanna

 
  > But as O is coming to Bangkok I was wondering if you had
> that set you mentyioned from M.P. that you were going to give to
> Betty and whether you could arrange for the foundation to make
> duplaicates for O and her group. OI chose those tapes and they
> have good talks by Phra Dhammadhra and Ajahn Sujin. 


Dear Robert,

I'm sorry I don't know what set you mean in 'that set you mentioned 
from M.P.'


> In fact it
> is worth making a special set of those and distributing them
> from the foundation.


I think you should address the people at the foundation themselves, 
as I said, I only really handle the website,

Amara

 
1366 From: amara chay   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:24pm
Subject: Re: sampajanna

 
  > Dear Robert,
> 
> I'm sorry I don't know what set you mean in 'that set you mentioned 
> from M.P.'


Dear Robert,

I just remembered what you were talking about!  I already gave Betty 
all of them, so if you want to send them to the foundation we can ask 
Betty to make copies or borrow her set and have them make copies.

Amara

 
1367 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:09pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/paticcasamupada

 
  --- protectID wrote: > Dear Jonothan,
> 
>    Thank you for sharing the information.  Last
> night, before going 
> to bed, I opened my Majjhima Nikaya volume the first
> time since 
> ordering from Amazon.com a few months ago, searching
> for No. 148.  
> It's there!  I will re-read it so that I can
> understand it better.  
> By then, maybe I'll understand what it says better
> to compare it with 
> the Abhidhamma notes.

Alex

Good work!  I am glad to have been a condition for
some further reading and study.

BTW, do you have Nina van Gorkom's 'Abhidhamma in
Daily Life'?  If so, the passage in question is
discussed there (Chapter 16, 'Objects and Doors').  I
find that Nina is able to give meaning to suttas in a
way that they would never have for me by just reading
the sutta on its own.

Good studying!

Jonothan


 
1368 From: A T   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 0:29am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: colour/paticcasamupada

 
  Dear Jonothan,

   Yes, I do have her Abhidhamma In Daily Life, thanks to O.  I'll read 
Chapter 16, too.  Thank you for the encouragement.

Anumodanna,
Alex
=======
>From: Jonothan Abbott 

>BTW, do you have Nina van Gorkom's 'Abhidhamma in
>Daily Life'?  If so, the passage in question is
>discussed there (Chapter 16, 'Objects and Doors').  I
>find that Nina is able to give meaning to suttas in a
>way that they would never have for me by just reading
>the sutta on its own.
>
>Good studying!
>
>Jonothan


 
1369 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 0:49am
Subject: tapes

 
  Dear all,

I wondered what I had said to make people think I handled the tapes, 
and found this note to O some time ago that might have been 
misleading, in an earlier posting (no. 1003).  I copy:




From: amara chay  
Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 6:08am
Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes

> It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English too.
> Our group should be in BKK on December 1st.
> Are you going to be there as well?
> It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna
> intellectually in both languages.


Dear O,

Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are also 
many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can ask 
Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you get to 
Bangkok.  I think you must have had a part in getting the tape 
copying machine for the foundation?  I would recommend the tapes 
when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present date, 
starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us deeper and 
deeper.  (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find, besides 
being very profound)  For me it started out as a review, then I 
found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new things.  
By the way the young men who look after the taping get the casettes 
at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for only 20 
bht.s apiece.  I highly recommend them, just write to Khun Pracheun 
whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the 
foundation.

Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to Thailand 
also, 

Amara



As I also said somewhere, we are setting up a company to help with 
the foundation's shipping and handling and printing of books, but 
for now not the tapes, which are done separately by a group of young 
people,  for their own profit.  I have nothing to do with them 
except that they can't edit the tapes as they don't know much 
English.  But as I said, if any of our friends here would like me to 
get copies for you, I will do so willingly, and have done, for free.  

Amara

 
1370 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 4:43am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sampajanna

 
  Dear Amara,

I'm planning to buy a good recorder of some kind, to
help out with learning pali and Thai.  I don't know
much about this technology, but I wonder if a digital
recorder might be useful to the group?  I'd be very
happy to bear the expense.  My idea is that, if I
could somehow record the tapes digitally and save them
as sound files of some kind, maybe I could FTP them to
the site, and others could download them directly to
their computers and eliminate the neccesity of
recording more tapes and physically mailing them?

If anyone knows this technology well enough to comment
on this idea, please do let me know off-list.

Thanks,

mn
--- amara chay  wrote:
> 
> 
>  I will ask Amara to 
> send you a
> > tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she
> have your mailing 
> address?
> 
> 
> Dear Betty and friends,
> 
> I know everyone thinks I have a set of the English
> discussion tapes 
> because I edit them for the foundation, but I am
> sorry to say I 
> haven't kept any copies for myself, so I have none
> at home except 
> for the ones I'm working on.  It would be much
> better to ask the 
> people at the foundation to send them to you, they
> have very fast 
> copying machines sent from America by our friends of
> the San 
> Francisco and Frsno areas, and the complete set of
> the tapes already 
> edited, but they might have a heavy workload and
> might take some 
> time send the tapes out.  
> 
> Having said that, especially for this group I will
> try to get the 
> tapes to you myself, I might have to borrow the
> masters and copy 
> them on my own inferior machine, which might get to
> you faster or 
> not, but will not be as professionally done.  By the
> way Betty, I am 
> sending you a note off-list, so see you in a few!
> 
> Amara
> 
> 



 
1371 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:26am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes

 
  Dear Amara,
I know you don't handle the tapes but it is difficult for me to
contact the people at the foundation whereas when you visit
there you can explain directly to them what we want, if you have
time.
Dear Mike,
I think it seems like a very good idea about a digital recorder.
Let us know how it works and how to put it on the web. 
Robert
--- amara chay  wrote: > 
> Dear all,
> 
> I wondered what I had said to make people think I handled the
> tapes, 
> and found this note to O some time ago that might have been 
> misleading, in an earlier posting (no. 1003).  I copy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: amara chay  
> Date: Sun Oct 8, 2000 6:08am
> Subject: Re: Free Dhamma tapes
> 
> > It would be nice if I get the chance to study in English
> too.
> > Our group should be in BKK on December 1st.
> > Are you going to be there as well?
> > It'd be great benefit for us to be able to accumulate panna
> > intellectually in both languages.
> 
> 
> Dear O,
> 
> Since the DSSFB English discussion groups started, there are
> also 
> many very useful ones at the foundation library too, you can
> ask 
> Khun Pracheun to make some copies for you to pick up when you
> get to 
> Bangkok.  I think you must have had a part in getting the tape
> 
> copying machine for the foundation?  I would recommend the
> tapes 
> when Tan Achaan began to teach Mom Betty up to the present
> date, 
> starting with a very solid basis, and gradually taking us
> deeper and 
> deeper.  (It's also so much fun to listen to, you will find,
> besides 
> being very profound)  For me it started out as a review, then
> I 
> found that I had forgotten so much and learned even more new
> things.  
> By the way the young men who look after the taping get the
> casettes 
> at a very low price from Sony, so they are selling them for
> only 20 
> bht.s apiece.  I highly recommend them, just write to Khun
> Pracheun 
> whom you must remember, he teaches as well as lives at the 
> foundation.
> 
> Looking forward to the live discussions when you get to
> Thailand 
> also, 
> 
> Amara
> 
> 
> 
> As I also said somewhere, we are setting up a company to help
> with 
> the foundation's shipping and handling and printing of books,
> but 
> for now not the tapes, which are done separately by a group of
> young 
> people,  for their own profit.  I have nothing to do with them
> 
> except that they can't edit the tapes as they don't know much 
> English.  But as I said, if any of our friends here would like
> me to 
> get copies for you, I will do so willingly, and have done, for
> free.  
> 
> Amara
> 
> 


 
1372 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:37am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes

 
   wrote:

> I think it seems like a very good idea about a
> digital recorder.
> Let us know how it works and how to put it on the
> web.

Will do.  If I haven't had any technical advice by
this weekend, I'll proceed on my own.  I can't help
thinking that all these mechanics shouldn't be
necessary when all we're really dealing with is a
bunch of little electromagnetic plusses and
minusses--but then you know my weakness for
simplicity...

mn 



 
1373 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:39am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: praise(Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Dear Betty, 

You really DID make it to Amara's satipatthana Paris
nightclub!

--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: 

> But once the performance
> was over, the
> realization of the impermanence of the aramana
> coming through the sense
> doors hit with a bang 

(thank 'heaven' for those 'bangs'...)

> and I was thus forcefully
> reminded once again that all
> conditioned realities are anatta, anicca and dukkha.
> Places like the Lido,
> Las Vegas (there are 2 Thai Buddhist temples there)
> and karaoke bars are
> great for panna to arise, provided sati and
> sampajanna arise as well.

I can only look forward to the time that sati,
sampajanna and panna arise with the present moment,
rather than with the retrospective 'bang'...

Anumodanaa,

mn



 
1374 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 8:59am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Betty,

--- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
 wrote:

> Dear Mn,
> Many thanks for your question, for it is one we all
> grapple (if that's the
> correct word) 

(it certainly is for me...)  

> with. How is the effort of a meditator
> different from that of
> one practicing vipassana/satipatthana?
> I think the answer lies in sampajanna. If sati
> arises in the course of
> pondering, not just aimless thinking, but real
> pondering on a particular
> question, text, quote, etc, and the 4 sampajanna are
> conditioned to arise,
> then panna will also arise. If panna does indeed
> arise, then it is like a
> kind of test or method of checking whether the
> practise is correct. 

My problem is, how will I tell panna from lobha
arising with micchaditthi?  This can be so strong, and
SO pleasant!  It's no wonder misguided monastics are
willing to give up sex (etc.) for it...

> If one
> meditates in the conventional manner and no panna
> seems to arise under those
> conditions, then the practice is not correct. But,
> on the other hand, if
> pondering does indeed become the condition for sati,
> then conditioning
> sampajanna to arise, which then conditions panna to
> arise, then it is
> correct, it is being proven.

I am EXTREMELY doubtful of 'my' ability to make that
judgement, at present.
 
> This is the way I understand it. Please comment and
> correct me if there is
> wrong view here.

I can only hope for the day when I might be able to
correct ANYONE on this list.

Thanks,

mn




 
1375 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:08am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  Jonothan,

Thanks for the response.  Just catching up on my
correspondence...

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:

> I'm not sure if anyone has picked up on your point
> (b), so allow me to say that, if I understand you
> correctly, you are spot on here.  Kusala dhammas can
> only arise to the extent (both as to frequency and
> intensity) that they have been developed.  There is
> no
> point in trying to 'have' any particular form of
> kusala or to 'use' it as a tool for whatever
> purpose.

Yes, that was my point--though 'my' grasp of it is
superficial and elementary, at best.
 
> There is a lot more akusala in a day than there is
> kusala.  This was so before we became interested in
> the dhamma, and remains so now.  This is because we
> have accumulated a lot more akusala than kusala. 
> This
> is not something to be seen as a cause for regret,
> but
> simply something to accept and face up to.

Understood...
 
> It takes courage to do this, since it goes against
> all
> our natural inclinations (read 'wrong view') as to
> what spiritual development is all about.

TELL me about it.  I thought I had a remodel job on my
hands, then discovered I had to demolish the whole
house.  Once I was ready to rebuild, I found I had to
dynamite the foundations.  Now I think I might have to
move out of state...

> But once
> accepted, it is a liberating realisation because it
> means that we don't really expect anything other
> than
> akusala.

Yes, I did find that a liberating idea--for a while...

> And once we understand that the task is
> not
> to get rid of akusala, but to know realilties
> (including the akusala ones) as they are, we realise
> that it doesn't really matter anyway.

Understood.  And thanks, very much.

mn


 
1376 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:16am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  --- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:

> if I was looking at a beautiful
> woman, and
> suddenly I began seeing that object as being
> composed of
> parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha
> that
> initially arose? 

I THINK it depends on whether or not you were really
aware of those rupa, or were TRYING to be aware of
them (rather than actually being aware of the nama of
trying, or whatever)...

> And since cetana is also not-self,
> what can be
> done? I concluded that present cetana would
> condition future
> cetana, and at this point I left it to 'dhamma'.
> Perhaps I was
> and am avoiding something and would like to hear
> comments
> from group members on this.  But I don't have the
> feeling of
> being caught in a vicious circle as you do.

I'm glad, and I hope you're right.

> I
> somehow feel
> that even though my understanding is only
> intellectual at
> this point, I have no other recourse than to read,
> consider
> and discuss

...that's the best conclusion I've been able to arrive
at, too--but I have little faith in it, at present...

Thanks so much for the thoughtful response!

mn


 
1377 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:28am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Mike,
I like this comment
--- "m. nease"  wrote: > 
> --- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:
> 
> > if I was looking at a beautiful
> > woman, and
> > suddenly I began seeing that object as being
> > composed of
> > parts, colors and shapes. Was I avoiding the lobha
> > that
> > initially arose? 
> 
> I THINK it depends on whether or not you were really
> aware of those rupa, or were TRYING to be aware of
> them (rather than actually being aware of the nama of
> trying, or whatever)...

This is really good. I look forward to having you correct my
little (or large) errors in the future - in your  relaxed and
friendly way.
Robert


 
1378 From: m. nease   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 9:52am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Sukin,

--- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:

> I also thought besides having cetana of tackling
> the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached
> to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may
> be
> 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel
> stuck.

I can only offer one reflection, one that 'I' 'used'
before encountering this group.  I'm pretty well
convinced now that everything I ever thought before
was wrong, but here it almost is, for what it's worth:

There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29",
but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my
PTS Digha Nikaya.  Anyway, in this discourse, two men
are described, walking along a path.  One of them (the
smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to
pick up something of greater value--starting, if
memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp
thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and
eventually to gold.  The other (dumb one) sticks with
his hemp (or whatever).  I used to take this to mean
that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent)
that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best
of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then,
as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes
slowly a little less rotten.

In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of
'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in
this notion--I really just offer it here as the best
I've ever been able to come up with.

> But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!?
> What cetana has arisen and what will arise?
> It does seem circular now.
> Help someone!
 
I have no idea.  Wish I could help, and sorry if my
akusala musings contributed to leading you into this
ugly cul-de-sac...

Good luck, mate...

mn


 
1379 From: shinlin   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:22am
Subject: Bonjour !!(quoting for friends who have just came back from France)

 
  Dear Sukin,
    Thanks a million for your help last week during the dhamma talk. You really woke me up from this "SELF regrets of  the arising of Akusula dhammas ". It is a very dangerous position to be in this Lobha Self consciousness, regreting why so much akusula and not being able to get rid of it and not wanting it to arise in the future. After what you have said, I have realized that there was just too much accumulations of Self that SELF can not help Self. AND so the best thing is to really discuss it with Dhamma Friends. Thanks alot for telling me directly... I really need it. 
Anumodana..
Shin 
 
1380 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:56am
Subject: Re: A bit more of an intro

 
  > Have you used the design somewhere or someplace?  How did 
> you become interested in Buddhist Iconography, by the way?  


Dear Mary,

The reason I asked is that I look after the website 
<http://www.dhammastudy.com/>, affiliated with the foundation as well 
as this group, and am always looking for beautiful things to use 
there, and it has become a sort of habit.  Sorry if I sound too 
inquisitive, 

Amara

 
1381 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:12am
Subject: Re: sampajanna

 
  > I don't know
> much about this technology, but I wonder if a digital
> recorder might be useful to the group?  I'd be very
> happy to bear the expense.  My idea is that, if I
> could somehow record the tapes digitally and save them
> as sound files of some kind, maybe I could FTP them to
> the site, and others could download them directly to
> their computers and eliminate the neccesity of
> recording more tapes and physically mailing them?


Dear Mike,

That would be so wonderful!  I don't know much about sound files 
except that there are MP3s and MIDIs and the former is MUCH larger 
(about 1,500k/song) whereas the latter is about 30k/song, but with 
lesser quality of course.  Other than that I'm as ignorant as
anything in this matter.  But one person on this list who has helped 
me find all the right necessities on the web is Tom Westheimer, 
please contact him at <protectID> and he most probably will 
be able to point you in the right direction.
 
Please keep me posted!

Amara

 
1382 From: shinlin   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:27am
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight

 
  Thankyou for your revision. Anumodana.
shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: quiet tonight


| Dear Friends in Dhamma,
| Amara has asked me to explain what Achaan Sujin taught us concerning
| Sampajanna (n with Spanish tilde on top). Her translations of the terms in
| English are different from the ones usually found in most dhamma books and
| Pali dictionaries, but her explanation greatly clarified the meaning and
| intent of sampajanna.
|
| The following explanation is merely an intellectual understanding. It is
| hoped that when the conditions are right, that each of the 4 sampajanna
will
| arise, leading to a clear understanding of this process for me (sorry one
| has to use that self word).
|
| The term means clear comprehension and it is one of the steps, so to
speak,
| of satipatthana. When sati arises, it will then lead to Sampajanna. This
in
| turn becomes the condition for panna to arise. There are 4 types or levels
| of sampajanna:
| 1)satthaka sampajanna: clear comprehension of usefulness. For instance:
| clear comprehension of the usefulness of studying the dhamma. Without this
| understanding there will be no motivation to continue to ponder, think
| deeply, about whatever question arises.
| 2)sappaya sampajanna: clear comprehension of suitability. Here, one would
| understand whether one is ready to understand or not.
| 3)gocara sampajanna: clear comprehension of the aramana; clear
comprehension
| of the nature of the aramana coming through the sense door/mind door
| processes.
| 4)asammoha sampajanna: clear comprehension of reality, non delusion. At
this
| point, panna would then arise.
| Understanding these four levels helps us understand HOW panna arises in
the
| process of satipatthana.
|
| Please forgive me if my understanding is a bit shaky and help correct any
| misunderstanding I may have of this.
|
| With metta,
| Betty
| __________________________
| Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
| 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
| Bangkok 10900, Thailand
| tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
| protectID|
|

 
1383 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:27am
Subject: Re: Accumulations (Was meditation, hatred ,and fear)

 
  > TELL me about it.  I thought I had a remodel job on my
> hands, then discovered I had to demolish the whole
> house.  Once I was ready to rebuild, I found I had to
> dynamite the foundations.  Now I think I might have to
> move out of state...


Dear Mike, 

Don't worry, you're in good company!  We'll keep one another company 
for quite a while yet, I think, and help each other as best we can 
along the way.  At least we are heading in the right direction and 
have begun to understand realities as they really are.  And we can 
keep studying, even as we think and plan and read and type, all the 
different realities that could add to your experience of the 
different characteristics of conditioned sankhara that appear at all 
times.  Remember what it felt like to be completely ignorant of 
them?  That's how far you have come in so short a time!  

Congratulations and anumodana,

Amara

 
1384 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:38am
Subject: Re: meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  > There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29",
> but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my
> PTS Digha Nikaya.  Anyway, in this discourse, two men
> are described, walking along a path.  One of them (the
> smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to
> pick up something of greater value--starting, if
> memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp
> thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and
> eventually to gold.  The other (dumb one) sticks with
> his hemp (or whatever).  I used to take this to mean
> that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent)
> that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best
> of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then,
> as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes
> slowly a little less rotten.
> 
> In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of
> 'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in
> this notion--I really just offer it here as the best
> I've ever been able to come up with.


Dear Mike,

I think it is something like the wisdom to know the value of things 
and to discard whatever is necessary to take on better things, 
not only because one can only carry so much but because one could be 
so attached to whatever one lugs around: even for beings born in 
hell would have as first vithi citta lobha, the pleasure in being 
born.  Of course they would not know any better, but even in this 
world people sometimes have a fear for the unknown and prefer to 
think that whatever is theirs is better than the others, especially 
in metaphysical matters.

Anyway, it's a great reminder to me, thanks for posting it- and 
looking forward to corrections from you too!  Anumodana,

Amara

 
1385 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 0:55pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Mn,
Trust your own judgement: you will know when panna arises and the difference
between it and lobha. For along with the good feeling will also be a deep
understanding that can only come with panna. You can't force it, it will
come of its own accord and it will NOT be micchidittha. If you constantly
doubt, and are not sure, then probably it is micchidittha at that moment.
But later, if the conditions are right, panna will arise. Trust it to do so
and relax. It will come when you least expect it.

with metta,
Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID





----- Original Message -----
From: m. nease 
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear


> Dear Betty,
>
> --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala"
>  wrote:
>
> > Dear Mn,
> > Many thanks for your question, for it is one we all
> > grapple (if that's the
> > correct word)
>
> (it certainly is for me...)
>
> > with. How is the effort of a meditator
> > different from that of
> > one practicing vipassana/satipatthana?
> > I think the answer lies in sampajanna. If sati
> > arises in the course of
> > pondering, not just aimless thinking, but real
> > pondering on a particular
> > question, text, quote, etc, and the 4 sampajanna are
> > conditioned to arise,
> > then panna will also arise. If panna does indeed
> > arise, then it is like a
> > kind of test or method of checking whether the
> > practise is correct.
>
> My problem is, how will I tell panna from lobha
> arising with micchaditthi?  This can be so strong, and
> SO pleasant!  It's no wonder misguided monastics are
> willing to give up sex (etc.) for it...
>
> > If one
> > meditates in the conventional manner and no panna
> > seems to arise under those
> > conditions, then the practice is not correct. But,
> > on the other hand, if
> > pondering does indeed become the condition for sati,
> > then conditioning
> > sampajanna to arise, which then conditions panna to
> > arise, then it is
> > correct, it is being proven.
>
> I am EXTREMELY doubtful of 'my' ability to make that
> judgement, at present.
>
> > This is the way I understand it. Please comment and
> > correct me if there is
> > wrong view here.
>
> I can only hope for the day when I might be able to
> correct ANYONE on this list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> mn
>
>
>
>

 
1386 From: Mary Reinard   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:16pm
Subject: Amara and the Lotus

 
  Dear Amara,

Absolutely not too inquisitive, see what I mean about taking my time 
to respond? 

This design is not used in this form, however I have used it on CD 
lables as far as the lotus only. And a version of the lotus is used 
as our wee Buddhist center's logo. If you'd like to use this 
particular lotus design, please accept this invitation to do just 
that. I have a Buddha you may like as well. Let me know if you'd like 
a peak. Or, if you would like something specific for your Dhamma 
page, let me know and I'll see what I can do. 

Metta,
Mary

 

 
1387 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:25pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Amara and the Lotus

 
  >If you'd like to use this
>particular lotus design, please accept this invitation to do just
>that. I have a Buddha you may like as well. Let me know if you'd like
>a peak. Or, if you would like something specific for your Dhamma
>page, let me know and I'll see what I can do.


Dear Mary,

Yes, please!  And thank you so much for your generous offer!  I'll continue 
off list, so please keep an eye out for my note,

Amara


 
1388 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:46pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Sukin and Mn,
I'm not sure which one of you wrote the quote below, but could you explain
it again because I don't understand what you're getting at.

But, upon reading it again, if I understand what you mean, you sound like
you are facing uncertainty. Just relax, keep pondering the question and, if
the conditions are right, sati, sampajanna and panna will arise the the
solution to the problem will become clear. Be patient and trusting. But if
your mind is in turmoil (dhosa) then the conditions for panna to arise will
not be there. Just "go with the flow", so to speak, and when you least
expect it, understanding will occur.

Betty
__________________________
Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
Bangkok 10900, Thailand
tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
protectID






>
> --- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:
>
> > I also thought besides having cetana of tackling
> > the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached
> > to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may
> > be
> > 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel
> > stuck.

Betty

But, below is my interpretation of the "story" in the sutta that you quoted,
it may or may not be what the Buddha and the suttas intended for the
interpretation.

However, as I understand the sutta with the story of the 2 monks walking,
one picking up  a series of objects, each getting more and more valuable,
while the other just stuck with one object he picked up, may be the
following:
The second monk, who only stuck with his hemp, is like a person with
micchaditthi. When we have michaditthi, I think, we tend to stay with one
train of thought and never really progress anywhere, i.e.,  never have panna
arising with ever increasing understanding. Whereas the first monk, picking
up a series of objects of ever increasing value, is like a person whose
conditions are there for sati, sampajanna and panna to arise, ever
increasing his understanding and changing his viewpoint.

What do you think?

with metta,
Betty
>

 
1389 From: protectID 
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:59pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats

 
  Dear Friends,


I have typed some phrases which I translated from the Book (sinhalese)
'vangchaka dhamma saha cittopakkilesa dhamma' which was compassionately
written by Rerukane Chandavimala MahaThera.

Pls bear in mind that I am not a good translator.

Dear Jonathan,

about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala dhammas,
can you give us more info about this? (Thanks)




format
[Vangchaka akusala dhamma -> cheats as #kusala dhamma]

Lobha -> cheats as

# paratthakamatha ( liking to serve for the welfare for others)
# dathukamatha ( liking to donate)
#kruthagnatha ( not forgetting the help previously got, gratitude )
#apacitikamatha ( showing gratitude for teachers...)
#anukulatha ( obeying )
#nekkammatha ( getting rid of material possessions)
#dhammadesanakamatha ( liking to preach )
#shikshakamatha ( liking for virtue )
#alpecchatha ( living with minimal requirements )
#vicheyyadanatha ( donating after examining the facts )
#santhuttitha ( being satisfied with what is possessed or achieved )
#paranuddayatha ( forgot this meaning)
#punyakamatha ( liking to do meritorious deeds)

to catch these one has to see whether they stay the same when conditions
differ.
ie. does the liking to donate still exist when the returns and praises are
minimal.?
are we showing the gratitude to expecting something in return.......


Raga -> cheats as

#metta ( loving kindness, amity )
#karuna( compassion)
#saddha (confidence, faith) [this is regarding (confidence on) individual
bhikkus or teachers]

the person will give in to the disguised raga , mistaking as he's
cultivating mettha etc..

Dosa -> cheats as

#khanti
#avihimsa
#nekkammatha
#mithabhanitha(talking minimally )
#paapagarahatha ( insulting the sinful deeds )
#patikkulasanna( contemplation of filthyness)
#aniccasanna( contemplation on impermanence)

egs-
when seeing a snake attacking a pray, one feels sorry for the pray and may
attack the snake thinking hes saving

the pray from the violence(himsa) done by the snake. ( applies for most
right-fighters)

Mana -> cheats as

#nihathamanatha ( modesty )
#gnana ( knowing )

the one who practices to get rid of mana , sometimes ends up in a nested
mana where he takes pride in his

'less-mana' ness , and feels hostile towards people who have mana.


thina middha  ->   cheat(s) as


#samadhi
#papaviramanatha
#gnana
#paratthakamatha
#alpecchatha


eg-  I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others  I will let others
 do it and get merit for themselves.


Kukkucca -> cheats as

#karuna
#shikshakamatha
#punnakamatha

egs-
Oh, I should have cultivated this virtue earlier.

Oh, what a pity that they had to suffer like this


Ditti , mana, vichikicca cheat as knowledge,

everyone who has a ditthi(view) about something thinks that it is the right
 wisdom, right knowledge.
Who has mana ( wrong measurement ) thinks it is right evaluation and
wisdom.
Whos in doubt , thinks this is his knowledge and this inquiring is due to
his wisdom.



according to Netthippakarana Atthakatha there are 38 vangchaka dhammas
which trouble yogins.
some of them are..

kamacchanda cheats as apatikkula sanna
vyapada cheats as patikkula sanna
thina midda cheats as samadhi
uddhacca cheats as viriya - [ 'thinkers' are really cheated this way ]
kukkuccha cheats as shikshakamatha
vichikicca cheats as ubhayapakkha santhirana [as looking at 'both sides of
the story' or [ie. after I really get to

know what this is, I will practice dhamma]
sammoha cheats as itthanittha samupekkhana [ one treats everything equally
, oblivious to the nature of them]
karunavirahitha cheats as viratthatha [ compassion-less ness cheats as
lust-less ness]
pahasa cheats as mudithavihara [ lusty-rapture cheats as muditha ]
kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittha chandatha cheats as upekkhavihara [ the
decreased desire for the wholesome

deeds and dhamma cheats as equinamity]   { Robert, this one is what you
pointed out, I think}

 
1390 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 10:51pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sampajanna

 
  Betty,

many thanks and yes she does..

Sarah
>
>Dear Sarah,
>Great lobha feeling to know that my explanation of sampajanna was helpful 
>to
>you. That is basically what Achaan said, but I will ask Amara to send you a
>tape of Saturday's session (Oct. 21). Does she have your mailing address?
>__________________________
>Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala
>38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road
>Bangkok 10900, Thailand
>tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160
>protectID>
>
>
>
>

 
1391 From: Kom Tukovinit  <protectID> 
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 2:52pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Accumulations,conditions,paticca

 
  Dear Sarah,

Thanks for elaborating on pacaya here: this is a subject that really
brings anatta, immense complexity of citta and cetasika, and Buddha's
panna into the spotlight.  I am just beginning to grasp how complex all
the conditions are.  Based on A. Sujin's explanation of pacayas (and my
understandings---all errors are from me...), I am counting the
followings:

for vedana and phassa arising with the single citta:

vedana is a pacaya for phassa in the following ways:
sahajata (conascence condition) 
sampayutta (association)
annamanna (mutuality)
nisaya (support)
indariya (chief in its functions?)
atti (still there?)
avicata (not gone yet?)
possibly vipaka (results)

phassa is a pacaya for vedana in the following ways:
sahajata (conascence condition) 
sampayutta (association)
annamanna (mutuality)
nisaya (support)
ahara (brings forth results?)
atti (still there?)
avicata (not gone yet?)
possibly vipaka (results)

phassa as a pacaya for vedana arising after the phassa
possibly aramanupa nisaya (support as a sense object)
possibly anantarupa nisaya (support as anantara)
possibly asevana (repeating in javana)
possibly anantara (causing next citta/cetasikas to arise)
possibly aramana (as sense object)
possibly aramna atipati ("strong" sense object?)
possibly natti (not there?)
possibly vicata (was there but no longer there?)

I am puzzled about your explanation of phassa as a pacaya for vedana
arising after the phassa in the following ways:
pacchajat (postnascence), 
sampayitta (association)

As I understand, only nama can be a pachajata pacaya for a rupa that
arises before it, and only namas arising at the same time can be
sampayutta pacaya of each other.  Would you please elaborate?

Thanks again for elaborating.  I am in process of trying to learn more
about pacaya.

kom

--- Sarah Procter Abbott  wrote:

>This is not to say that the
> phassa 
> with the citta at this moment is the cause of the vedana at this
> moment. If 
> only it were all so simple! For sure there must be sahajata paccaya 
> (conascence condition) for them to arise together and also I'd think 
> annamanna (mutuality) and nissaya (support) condition...but i'd need
> to give 
> all this more thought! There are also many conditions which would
> link the 
> phassa now with vedana succeeding it (immediately or later) by
> pacchajat 
> (postnascence), sampayitta (association), asevana (repetition)
> conditions 
> and so on. I really find the study of paccaya very fascinating, but
> I'm only 
> a beginner and not an abhidhamma expert!
> 
> Kom also added some useful comments on this subject about how paticca
> 
> samuppada can be used to explain 'dispersed series of citta through
> last 
> life, this life and next life. And finally, it can be used to explain
> just a 
> single citta at this moment'. I really think we only begin to get a
> little 
> glimpse at the meaning of paticca samuppada when there is the
> development of 
> understanding of realities....otherwise it's very conceptual and
> usually 
> with mixed up views! Kom also went on to talk about avijja...(sorry,
> I can't 
> add in his post here)...Yes, Kom, it's a good point. Until avijja 
> (ignorance) has been eradicated, it is there, accumulated with the
> citta 
> from one moment to the next. Even at moments of kusala citta (when we
> say 
> there is no avijja), it is still lying dormant at those moments as
> anusaya 
> (latent tendency) ready to 'surface' as soon as the kusala citta has 
> passed.....
> 
> Robert, I'm not sure if this has clarified or confused the matter and
> I'm 
> not at all sure if I understood and correctly answered yr qu. Pls
> correct 
> any mistakes! Apologies for the delay. At least Mary will see that
> some of 
> us are a little slow....
> 
> Sarah
>

 
1392 From: Sarah Procter Abbott   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 11:29pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes

 
  DearRobert.

We've also said we'd like to make a contribution to cover the cost of making 
English tapes, editing (if need be) and posting tapes and books from Bkk to 
anyone overseas, so recovering small costs etc is not a consideration...but 
it seems this is not simple.

We cannot make a donation especially for a given purpose and there needs to 
be someone to do the work. It seems there is a big backlog at present. I 
plan to raise the subject when i'm in Bkk with Elle, Khun Douangduen and 
others....just takes time to get systems organised.

I know Amara is fully stretched and would prefer not to get too involved in 
this side. Someone else may be able to coordinate it in due course.

Anumodana w/regard to yr helping sending tapes out meanwhile! Personally, I 
find some of the early tapes with Khun Sujin, Phra D and the other monks to 
be some of the best (even tho' quality is not great).

mike, look f/w to hearing how yr tape plans work out.

Sarah



 >
>Dear Amara,
>I know you don't handle the tapes but it is difficult for me to
>contact the people at the foundation whereas when you visit
>there you can explain directly to them what we want, if you have
>time.
>Dear Mike,
>I think it seems like a very good idea about a digital recorder.
>Let us know how it works and how to put it on the web.
>Robert

 
1393 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 4:41pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Bonjour !!(quoting for friends who have just came back from France)

 
  Dear Shin,
You are giving credit to me for a habitual response which has been in the past,
more harmful than it has been useful(if it ever had). Why do you think for instance,
Betty, or Amara, or Acharn did not respond? How many people you know in the
group who would 'tell directly'? Today I told you something directly that happened
not to be abusive, but tomorrow you might have to'bear some abuses'. I am not saying
that I am likely to abuse you, what I want to say, is that there was no panna present
at the time of making my statement. It was lobha, moha and dosa all at work.
I wanted to comment but didn't get a chance to, when you stated earlier about having
studied abhidhamma on your own for three years and not gaining anything from it, I
wanted to say that your hard work would definitely one day bear fruit, and when that
day comes I will hear many many wise words from you. Believe me, your understanding
is due to your own accumulated good kamma, otherwise you might have not liked
my direct response. Besides having written this post itself reflects your wholesome tendencies.
Thanks anyway for giving me the credit, it came at a time when I was not feeling too
good about myself.

Anumoddhana,
Sukin.


shinlin wrote:

> Dear Sukin,    Thanks a million for your help last week during the
> dhamma talk. You really woke me up from this "SELF regrets of  the
> arising of Akusula dhammas ". It is a very dangerous position to be in
> this Lobha Self consciousness, regreting why so much akusula and not
> being able to get rid of it and not wanting it to arise in the future.
> After what you have said, I have realized that there was just too much
> accumulations of Self that SELF can not help Self. AND so the best
> thing is to really discuss it with Dhamma Friends. Thanks alot for
> telling me directly... I really need it.Anumodana..Shin
>
>
>                       eGroups Sponsor

>

 
1394 From: shinlin   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 4:50pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes

 
  Dear Sarah,
    The problem can be solved by expanding more memory into our website.
Then as for our part in Thailand, we can decode the dhamma discussion into
MP3. IF anybody in abroad need to listen to the dhamma talk, they can down
load the MP3 into their computer. This is the only fast and easier solution,
then sending tapes.
    The only thing, we have to do is raise a fund to provide more memory
space in the website. This we have to ask K. Amara about the matter.
with metta,
shin
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Procter Abbott 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:29 AM
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] tapes


| DearRobert.
|
| We've also said we'd like to make a contribution to cover the cost of
making
| English tapes, editing (if need be) and posting tapes and books from Bkk
to
| anyone overseas, so recovering small costs etc is not a
consideration...but
| it seems this is not simple.
|
| We cannot make a donation especially for a given purpose and there needs
to
| be someone to do the work. It seems there is a big backlog at present. I
| plan to raise the subject when i'm in Bkk with Elle, Khun Douangduen and
| others....just takes time to get systems organised.
|
| I know Amara is fully stretched and would prefer not to get too involved
in
| this side. Someone else may be able to coordinate it in due course.
|
| Anumodana w/regard to yr helping sending tapes out meanwhile! Personally,
I
| find some of the early tapes with Khun Sujin, Phra D and the other monks
to
| be some of the best (even tho' quality is not great).
|
| mike, look f/w to hearing how yr tape plans work out.
|
| Sarah
|
|
|
|
|
|

 
1395 From: Sukinderpal Narula   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 5:03pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] meditation, hatred ,and fear

 
  Dear Mike,
Thanks for your response.
I need to think over what you have written and do not want to
misinterpret it, but I have a feeling that it is relavent to my position.
If I am unable to make a satisfactory  interpretation, I will write
again.

Anumoddhana,
Sukin.
ps: don't worry about putting me in a cul-de-sac.The earlier I find myself
in such a position the better, isn't it?


"m. nease" wrote:

> Dear Sukin,
>
> --- Sukinderpal Narula  wrote:
>
> > I also thought besides having cetana of tackling
> > the real issue, to have cetana of not being attached
> > to whatever thought arise as a result, but this may
> > be
> > 'dosa' towards the idea of 'lobha' and now I feel
> > stuck.
>
> I can only offer one reflection, one that 'I' 'used'
> before encountering this group.  I'm pretty well
> convinced now that everything I ever thought before
> was wrong, but here it almost is, for what it's worth:
>
> There's a discourse which I have listed as "DN 23.29",
> but which nomenclature seems to make no sense in my
> PTS Digha Nikaya.  Anyway, in this discourse, two men
> are described, walking along a path.  One of them (the
> smart one) keeps putting down what he's carrying to
> pick up something of greater value--starting, if
> memory serves, with hemp for hemp thread, then hemp
> thread for hemp cloth, so on to copper, etc., and
> eventually to gold.  The other (dumb one) sticks with
> his hemp (or whatever).  I used to take this to mean
> that, when micchaditthi is so strong (and frequent)
> that you can't hope for sammaditthi, you make the best
> of it with the best micchaditthi you can find, then,
> as little bits of panna arise, your view becomes
> slowly a little less rotten.
>
> In light of recent instruction re. the hopelessness of
> 'using' anything at all, I no longer have any faith in
> this notion--I really just offer it here as the best
> I've ever been able to come up with.
>
> > But what can I learn from all this? Anattaness!?
> > What cetana has arisen and what will arise?
> > It does seem circular now.
> > Help someone!
>
> I have no idea.  Wish I could help, and sorry if my
> akusala musings contributed to leading you into this
> ugly cul-de-sac...
>
> Good luck, mate...
>
> mn
>
>

 
1396 From: Sukinder Narula   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 5:17pm
Subject: Re: to 'sit' or not to 'sit'?

 
  Dear Sarah,
Thanks for your advise and your encouragement.
As of now, my main problem is to tune myself into the way of
thought which you and other members do so easily. I feel
like a radio with a bad antenna having a hard time tuning
into this frequency. Anyway I shall always keep in mind
Buddhas advise about 'associating with the wise' with
the hope that one day I might begin to see.
Pleasure knowing you, even it be with this muddled mind.

Anummodhana,
Sukin.
---  "Sarah Procter Abbott" 
 wrote:
> >Dear Sarah,
> >
> >Thanks for reminding me not to get stuck in scripts and stories.
> >As a person who doesn't wait for praise to come from outside but
> >happily does it to himself, I've still got a lot of accumulations 
to sift
> >through. I can imagine that attending to moment to moment realities
> >will generate best course of action to be taken. But just as gold 
is
> >so hard to find in the midst of so much sand, I only hope that I 
can
> >stick with this group long enough to find enough gold, and then not
> >to think about staying or leaving it....See how I like to create 
stories?
> 
> Sukin, it's good you realize they are stories...many people don't 
get that 
> far and mistakes the stories for realities. It's not so much a 
question of 
> sifting through accumulations as just getting to know them a little 
better 
> from time to time as understanding begins to grow...If we talk
about 
> attending to 'moment to moment realities' it sounds a little like 
self 
> concentrating on or trying to catch a reality. It's better not to
be 
too 
> 'ambitious', to study (intellectually first) about many, many 
realities, so 
> they won't be confused with all those stories. Then, it's not a 
matter of 
> not having the stories, but awareness can begin to be aware from 
time to 
> time of a reality which is not a story. Sometimes I find "I" have 
been lost 
> in a story for quite some time with no awareness and then I just 
laugh!
> 
> 
> >Thanks again. My image of you is that of a wise and gentle person
> >(another story? But it must have a good degree of truth, right?).
> >
> 
> very occasionally to both, but thanks! (certainly not at those 
'frazzled' 
> moments!)
> 
> pls do stick with this group long enough to help us all get 
enlightened!
> 
> Sarah
> 

 
1397 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 6:55pm
Subject: Re: tapes

 
  > This we have to ask K. Amara about the matter.


Dear Shin,

If you ask me, I think we have enough space for a trial period, if 
Mike wants to experiment, we still have half the site empty.  If we 
get to three quarters full we might start looking around, but as it 
is no need for any additional space, we also have other, older 
experimental sites already in our name and not in use.  In short, 
space is not a problem at the moment, so what we need is a good 
program for Mike to work with, perhaps using the tapes already sent 
by Robert

What do you think?

Amara

 
1398 From: Robert Kirkpatrick   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:04pm
Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cheats

 
  Dear gayan,
I am so impressed with this! It is very helpful and these
matters are rarely explained. (It already helps me to see a few
of those cheating dhammas in myself) Did the venerable give
extra comments about these things? I have the nettipakarana but
the atthakattha has yet to be translated into English (maybe you
could be the one to do it..?) You have a great advantage knowing
singhalese (and we have an advantage having you on this
discussion list). This is the type of material that will
interest Nina van Gorkom; I will send a copy of your letter to
her.
Thank you very much.
Robert
--- protectID wrote: > 
> Dear Friends,
> 
> 
> I have typed some phrases which I translated from the Book
> (sinhalese)
> 'vangchaka dhamma saha cittopakkilesa dhamma' which was
> compassionately
> written by
> Rerukane Chandavimala MahaThera.
> 
> Pls bear in mind that I am not a good translator.
> 
> Dear Jonathan,
> 
> about the far enemy and near enemy of kusala dhammas,
> can you give us more info about this? (Thanks)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> format
> [Vangchaka akusala dhamma -> cheats as #kusala dhamma]
> 
> Lobha -> cheats as
> 
> # paratthakamatha ( liking to serve for the welfare for
> others)
> # dathukamatha ( liking to donate)
> #kruthagnatha ( not forgetting the help previously got,
> gratitude )
> #apacitikamatha ( showing gratitude for teachers...)
> #anukulatha ( obeying )
> #nekkammatha ( getting rid of material possessions)
> #dhammadesanakamatha ( liking to preach )
> #shikshakamatha ( liking for virtue )
> #alpecchatha ( living with minimal requirements )
> #vicheyyadanatha ( donating after examining the facts )
> #santhuttitha ( being satisfied with what is possessed or
> achieved )
> #paranuddayatha ( forgot this meaning)
> #punyakamatha ( liking to do meritorious deeds)
> 
> to catch these one has to see whether they stay the same when
> conditions
> differ.
> ie.
> does the liking to donate still exist when the returns and
> praises are
> minimal.?
> are we showing the gratitude to expecting something in
> return.......
> 
> 
> Raga -> cheats as
> 
> #metta ( loving kindness, amity )
> #karuna( compassion)
> #saddha (confidence, faith) [this is regarding (confidence on)
> individual
> bhikkus or teachers]
> 
> the person will give in to the disguised raga , mistaking as
> he's
> cultivating mettha etc..
> 
> Dosa -> cheats as
> 
> #khanti
> #avihimsa
> #nekkammatha
> #mithabhanitha(talking minimally )
> #paapagarahatha ( insulting the sinful deeds )
> #patikkulasanna( contemplation of filthyness)
> #aniccasanna( contemplation on impermanence)
> 
> egs-
> when seeing a snake attacking a pray, one feels sorry for the
> pray and may
> attack the snake thinking hes saving
> 
> the pray from the violence(himsa) done by the snake. ( applies
> for most
> right-fighters)
> 
> Mana -> cheats as
> 
> #nihathamanatha ( modesty )
> #gnana ( knowing )
> 
> the one who practices to get rid of mana , sometimes ends up
> in a nested
> mana where he takes pride in his
> 
> 'less-mana' ness , and feels hostile towards people who have
> mana.
> 
> 
> thina middha  ->   cheat(s) as
> 
> 
> #samadhi
> #papaviramanatha
> #gnana
> #paratthakamatha
> #alpecchatha
> 
> 
> eg-  I will not do this ,as I like the welfare of others  I
> will let others
>  do it and get merit for themselves.
> 
> 
> Kukkucca -> cheats as
> 
> #karuna
> #shikshakamatha
> #punnakamatha
> 
> egs-
> Oh, I should have cultivated this virtue earlier.
> 
> Oh, what a pity that they had to suffer like this
> 
> 
> Ditti , mana, vichikicca cheat as knowledge,
> 
> everyone who has a ditthi(view) about something thinks that it
> is the right
>  wisdom, right knowledge.
> Who has mana ( wrong measurement ) thinks it is right
> evaluation and
> wisdom.
> Whos in doubt , thinks this is his knowledge and this
> inquiring is due to
> his wisdom.
> 
> 
> 
> according to Netthippakarana Atthakatha there are 38 vangchaka
> dhammas
> which trouble yogins.
> some of them are..
> 
> kamacchanda cheats as apatikkula sanna
> vyapada cheats as patikkula sanna
> thina midda cheats as samadhi
> uddhacca cheats as viriya - [ 'thinkers' are really cheated
> this way ]
> kukkuccha cheats as shikshakamatha
> vichikicca cheats as ubhayapakkha santhirana [as looking at
> 'both sides of
> the story' or [ie. after I really get to
> 
> know what this is, I will practice dhamma]
> sammoha cheats as itthanittha samupekkhana [ one treats
> everything equally
> , oblivious to the nature of them]
> karunavirahitha cheats as viratthatha [ compassion-less ness
> cheats as
> lust-less ness]
> pahasa cheats as mudithavihara [ lusty-rapture cheats as
> muditha ]
> kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittha chandatha cheats as upekkhavihara
> [ the
> decreased desire for the wholesome
> 
> deeds and dhamma cheats as equinamity]   { Robert, this one is
> what you
> pointed out, I think}
> 
> 
> 
> 

 
1399 From: amara chay   
Date: Tue Oct 24, 2000 7:14pm
Subject: Re: tapes

 
  > We cannot make a donation especially for a given purpose 


Dear Sarah, 

Did Khun Sujin tell you this?  Because my mother does it all the 
time, for example when Nina's first book was all distributed, my 
mother was the main person who sponsored the first reprint.  You can 
ask Khun Sujin about this, although at that time there were no 
foundations.  But she still did things like that even after the 
foundation started, in fact the reel recording machines Khun Sujin 
uses to edit her tapes currently are the ones my mother bought, as 
were the sets before that she used personally.  Even now at the 
foundation anyone can specify how much they would like to donate 
towards printing books, electrical and water bills, upkeep of the 
grounds, etc., but without specification they go to the foundation's 
account.  You can check with Khun Sujin whether I had asked for 
funds set aside, donated by ME AS A START (plus many other friends 
who would have joined in), for shipping and handling overseas and 
she said the foundation did not have a policy for that at the time, 
this was when the website first started.  She only told me they had 
started the section a few days ago.  Anyway I am glad you wanted to 
talk to the foundation people about this, things could always be 
improved, anumodana in your kusala cetana,

Amara