7200 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:14am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders Hello >>This preacher thing seems to be a big deal to you, Cybele. :-) I don't get along well with 'peremptory or authoritative tones', is well known. Past accumulations sweetheart. Remember I was born on the continent of the revolutionary Che Guevara. I had red flags with his image all over the place when I was your age. 'No paseran!' > > > Anders all the practice if the Four Foundations of > > Mindfulness is BASED on noticing upadana - clinging - > > in order to don't get attached or reject any of the > > objects of meditation. > > > > Smack,smack > >I'm talking about no object of meditation at all! Have you read the Diamond >Sutra? Anders I have read the Diamomd Sutra but my practice is Theravada, Satipatthana Sutta based, Vipassana - Insight Meditation. But have you read the text I forwarded? I am not all over the place, I concentrate in one practice even being ecletic. Love Cybele > >"This is why, Subhuti, the Bodhisattva should be free of all images when >engendering the supremely unexcelled bodhicitta. He should not dwell in >forms when giving rise to that mind. He should not dwell in sounds, odours, >tastes, tactile sensations, or ideas when giving rise to that mind. He >should dwell nowhere when giving rise to that mind. If in that mind he has >an abode, then it would be the non-abode." > > 7201 From: ppp Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:15pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Suan (and Anders): Thank you very much for more information on the Burmese Tipitaka, and the Web site on Burmese embassies. Historically, Burma and Burmese have contributed greately on the enrichment of the Pali literature (e.g., Saddhaniti, one of the greatest Pali grammarians, who lived in 12th century A.D.). (In my Bangkok era, there was only one temple in whole Thailand, where we (late Ven. Dhmmadara and I) could learn the Pali language in the traditional Panini method. And this temple was run by a well learned Burmese maha-thera.) tadao 7202 From: DeBenedictis/Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:00am Subject: Fw: The Dana Thing The following links are excellent concerning "dana": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/economy.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel367.html May they be helpful. Bhante D. 7203 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 6:19am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:14 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana - Anders > > Hello > > >>This preacher thing seems to be a big deal to you, Cybele. :-) > > I don't get along well with 'peremptory or authoritative tones', is well > known. Past accumulations sweetheart. > Remember I was born on the continent of the revolutionary Che Guevara. > I had red flags with his image all over the place when I was your age. > 'No paseran!' Destroy the capitalist plague! > >I'm talking about no object of meditation at all! Have you read the Diamond > >Sutra? > > Anders I have read the Diamomd Sutra but my practice is Theravada, > Satipatthana Sutta based, Vipassana - Insight Meditation. Aha! So you admit that you smacked me unjustly! And where does a slave get off with that anyway? > But have you read the text I forwarded? > I am not all over the place, I concentrate in one practice even being > ecletic. Well...... 7204 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 6:25am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:02 PM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > What a cocktail Anders, you are a free spirit or you are a bit dispersive? What's wrong with that? > Anyway if you want my support on Vipassana meditation exclusively I can be > helpful. > BUT I practice the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and do not add much more > burden to it. Isn't Satipatthana a mixture of Samatha and Vipassana? > >You may have got a head start in years, but you know I'll beat you to the > >finish line ;-) > > Honey, I am not in a Nibbana contest. > The spirit of competition I leave to the scandinavians. > I am Brazilian, I take it easy. :-))))) Damn. You gotta set your standards higher, Cybele. > > > Then you have to rely on what the 'convents pass' so to speak. > > > If you trust a Brazilian wild woman teaching you Vipassana here I am. > > > >uhhhh........... > > Don't you dare viking, do any comment and the sword of justice will fall on > your head!!!! :-) Oh well... > Sweeetieeee! So tender... > Anders a body build to sit in meditation has a lot more to endure. And I thought my body was already done for! Phew! > In a retreat of intensive practice you keep going alternating sitting and > walking meditation from dawn till late evening. > A minumum duration of a sitting session is one hour followed by one hour > walking. Yikes! You have to remember I've never attended anything of that kind. > In the strict ones like in Burma I arrived to sit in one time 3 hours and > half. Wow, that's almost up to Japanese Zen standards. > And my body is really not built to sit in meditation, I am very tall and > well built, large bones and buxom. > Therefore come down to earth, don't start with your manic high flights of > sotopanna. :-) Ever heard about the Danish "jante-law", Cybele? > Ok the deal is done. > Great I can boss you around!!!! ;-);-);-) Hey, wait a minute! You are supposed to be *my* slave, not the other way around! > > > This is subject I can feel quite confident about mister viking. ;-) > > > >Hang on, while I consume poisinous mushrooms and prepare to raid the > >British > >Isles! > > What is this stuff of 'poisonous myshrooms'? If I knew, I'd be mixing it in my basement :-) > >Not the best to tell you the truth (she's okay). My stepmom is a better > >cook > >really. Anyway, I thought the Dhamma was free!!!!! :-) > > What this is capitalism sweetheart, let's face reality as it is! > However if you really fancy it, contact me off line and I give you the > clues. FREEEEEE don't worry! > I must accumulate merits for all my 'sins'. ;-))))) Offline? Like in person, or the phone? 7205 From: ppp Date: Sun Aug 5, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Abhidharma, Translation, Etc. Hi, Erick: The following is my responce to your earlier message on your project plan. So you have to learn Thai, Pali, Sanskrit, and Tibetan. As for Tibetan, all I know is that its sript must be the most beautiful one among all the scripts used in the langauges in the world. (One of courses I have been developing is "the writing systems of the world".) As for its grammar, besides the huge descripancy between the written form and spoken form (which is due to a historical reason), the affixation seems to be most difficult aspect of its grammar to master. Since you are in Thailand, you should not have any problem in picking up Thai. Thai is a so-called "isolating langaug"e (= no derviational/ inflectional morphemes involved), so it may be better for you to have a good teacher. Besides phonogical peculiarities (such as tone sandhi), Thai has "strange ways" of saying things due to the facts that it's a "pro-drop" language (where Subject, Object, etc. can easily be dropped) and that sentences often employ so-called "serial verb construction" (where, a series of verbs can, for insance, share the same object lisenced by these verbs). So, in Thai, for instance, the following sentence, which consists of a series of mere verbs, is perfectly grammatical: "go buy take come distribute give eat" (= to go and by (something) and bring (it) back and pass (it) out to eat). Again my suggestion is find a good teacher. Once you do so, you should start feeling comfortable with the language after two months or so. With respect to Sanskrit and Pali, I think, it's up to you to choose which language to be learned first. It's nice to have an instructor but you can easlity pick up these langauges without them. If you are going to study Pali, you may use A.K Warder's grammar book but, I suggest, you ignore all the excersises. Once you are able to read Pali texts of "your own choice" (in a-passage-from-here- and-another-from-there manner) slowly, and would like to learn more about the grammar, please visit the Mahamakkutt Bookstore, and ask for the "Pali Grammar (book) in the Higher Level (pali vanakoon chan suun). The book (consisting of several volumes) are excellent in the sense that it lists numerous peculiar grammatical forms whose explantions you cannot find any other grammar books. If you are interested in reading older Pali texts, such as Sutta-nipaata, then, pick up Giger's book: Pali Literature and Language. The point I would like to make is that Pali is not a difficult language to study. If you do not have any teacher and would like to pick up Sanskrit (as quickly and as painlessly as possible), please use the following text: Coulson Michael. (1992) Sanskrit: An Introduction to the Classical Langague. Illinois: NTC/Contemporary Publishing. I highly recommend this book because of its emphasis on developing the reader's reading skill and not on forcing him to mermorize various rules. (Another Sanskrit grammar book whose revised edition becomes avilable quite soon from the University of Hawaii Press has also a good reputation.) The point is that if you study Coulson's book very diligently, doing all the excercises on Sanskrit-English translation, you shoud be able to understand how the langauge works and how it differs from Pali in two or so months. These are my advice. Good luck, tadao 7206 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:03am Subject: Leaving Dear group >I just wish to communicate that I am leaving to Italy early morning and >during my stay, my participation will be very sporadic as internet cafes >are not so popular there and the few ones are a bit costly. >If I get the chance to check my mail in the house of some friend internet >equipped I will send greetings, otherwise everybody is going to enjoy >Cybele-vacations for a while. >Please avoid crying and sentimental scenes, a bit of composure please, >detachment, no clinging... ;-)) > >Actually I am going to miss all of you. >During my long recover participating in the lists helped me to feel >grounded and I developed a genuine friendship with some of you off list >that is most fulfilling and the only family I have. > >Well 'arrivederci' and best wishes for all of my dhamma friends. > >To make a prairie it takes >a clover and one bee, >One clover, and a bee, >And revery. >The revery alone will do, >If bees are few. > >Emily Dickinson > >Love > >Cybele > 7207 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:31am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > > Honey, I am not in a Nibbana contest. > > The spirit of competition I leave to the scandinavians. > > I am Brazilian, I take it easy. :-))))) > >Damn. You gotta set your standards higher, Cybele. You impertinent brat! ;-) > > > >Not the best to tell you the truth (she's okay). My stepmom is a better > > >cook > > >really. Anyway, I thought the Dhamma was free!!!!! :-) > > > > What this is capitalism sweetheart, let's face reality as it is! > > However if you really fancy it, contact me off line and I give you the > > clues. FREEEEEE don't worry! > > I must accumulate merits for all my 'sins'. ;-))))) > >Offline? Like in person, or the phone? Oh, my! OFF LIST!!!!! Terrible Danish plague, you are my kammic punishment; I have to raise up this clever brat... :-)))) Cybele 7208 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:09am Subject: Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > What is this stuff of 'poisonous mushrooms? > > If I knew, I'd be mixing it in my basement :-) This so-called "poisonous mushroom" you are referring to is known by the clinical name "Amanita muscaria," or more commonly, the "fly agaric." It is the fairy-tale-like toadstool with a large red cap and white spots. This mushroom was consumed by Vikings before going on raids, because its active ingredients, muscarine and muscimol, condition tremorous excitement and agitation and fearlessness, which is the reason Vikings were called "Bezerkers"--due to the effects of these mushrooms. http://www.erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_muscaria_muscaria.shtml R. Gordon Wasson, a Wall St. investment banker and amateur mycologist, actually went so far as to claim that this very mushroom was the so-called "Soma" drug described in the Indian Somaveda (one of the four Vedas) that inspired the Indian sages to such heights of ecstasy. http://www.herbaria.harvard.edu/Libraries/wasson.html Given the effects of the drugs muscarine and muscimol, I found his HIGHLY doubtful, however, and I think he really stretched the idea to fit a questionable thesis. However, R. Gordon Wasson was the consummate explorer, and without his curiosity and tenacity, it is likely we would have had to wait quite some time longer before discovering the magical properties of the mushrooms of the Psilocybe family. For that matter, it is quite possible the sixties as we know them would have never occurred, and the Dharma as we know it may never have grown the way it has in the West (because let's call a spade a spade here: there are MANY who entered the Dharma gate in this lifetime through the use of psychedelic drugs; and to ignore this fact is to play the proverbial ostrich with his head buried in the ground). It was Gordon Wasson who first traveled to Mexico to meet the "curandera" Maria Sabina, a Mazateca shamaness who used Psilocybin mushrooms as part of her healing practice, as well as tools to aid in divination, etc. http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_spirit.shtml http://spiritplants.yack.org/articles/wasson.html So it was due to Wasson's explorations that the West came to know about the properties of psilocybin, with (if my recollection is right) the help of the renowned Harvard ethnobotanist, Richard Evans Schultes (also the consummate explorer and adventurer, without whom we may have had to wait quite some time to rediscover the properties of another naturally occurring neurochemical present in our own brains as well as a POWERFUL psychedelic, which is known by the name Dimethyltryptamine, or DMT, but I digress). It was Psilocybin, the active drug in the Psilocybe family of mushrooms, that was used in Harvard's "Good Friday" experiment, in which several Harvard divinity students were given the drug psilocybin at Marsh Chapel: http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal2.shtml It was this drug, psilocybin, that caught the attention of a Harvard psychologist at that time, a certain Timothy Leary, such that he felt some compulsion to give it a try. He had such an illuminating experience with psilocybin, that it led to, well, there are probably few here unfamiliar with the infamous (and wrongly maligned) Timothy Leary, which led him further to investigate a certain drug--a rye ergot derivative--which had been synthesized by a Swiss chemist by the name of Albert Hoffmann in 1943, which was known by the name of Lysergic acid diethylamide-25 (LSD). Following the chain of cause-and-effect, things, um, mushroomed from there, and there's no need to go forther to describe what everyone is quite familair with (leading Richard Milhouse Nixon to declare Timothy Leary the "most dangerous man in America"). Bring the setting to 1981, suburban Connecticut, and a sixteen-year- old Mormon boy, who before doing anything, had read nearly every book in his high-school's library on psychology and psychopharmacology, who was at that time experimenting with this marvelous and extremely hard-to-find chemical, LSD. In his mind's eye he saw what appeared to be a Buddhist monk meditating in what appeared to be a place that resembled someplace tropical, with stone carvings of Buddhas, etc. For some reason he sat spontaneously in lotus-posture and saw in his mind's eye the Buddha in meditative equipoise, and meditated on that, and furthermore, in this state gained a very strong (and familiar) taste of what he would later come to discover in his non-drug meditative experiences to be associated with "tathata," or "suchness." Further explorations with this same chemical seemed to provoke similar "familiar" tastes, sounds, sights, smells--things associated only with Indian or Asian culture, which he had never had any experience of at that point, which he found so intriguing he could not help but begin destroying all the beliefs he had been taught to accept as Gospel. Fast-forward to 1996, Entheobotany conference at San Francisco, where this now thirty-one-year-old attended several lectures, one by the Nobel Prize-winning chemist Kary Mullis, who described how it was in an LSD vision that he came to see the entire protease-chain-reaction process unfold, and how without LSD his Nobel Prize-winning discovery would have never occurred. The reason I mention this at all, for the record, is that without the discovery of the protease chain-reaction, my dear and only sister would be dead right now, and would have never had the incredible opportunity to hear the Holy Dharma as taught by the Dalai Lama in this lifetime a just few months ago. There, this conference attendee also had the incredible fortune of meeting the Bodhisattva and Berkeley pharmacologist known by the name of Alexander Shulgin (and even got an autographed copy of "PHIKAL"-- "Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved" from him). Dr. Shulgin is known in some circles as the "Godfather" of MDMA, since it was his willingness to literally risk his life to explore the phenethylamine (and tryptamine) family of drugs using the incredible technique of "auto-assay"--which involved taking newly-synthesized compounds and trying them out on his own set of khandas (with the help of some friends, who were also intrepid explorers). http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/poison/ecstasy/alexander.htm Thee is much, much more to this story, but will stop here, as there are parts that are not appropriate to share publicly. Anyway, I can say with certainty that without these drugs, I would not be here, where I am, right now, doing what I'm doing--a student of the Buddhas' Dharma. And there are MANY I know who can say exactly the same (reading this very forum), who may not have the courage or willingness at present to speak up on this issue. 7209 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:15am Subject: Re: Abhidharma, Translation, Etc. --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Erick: Tadao, thank you for your most informative reply. Can you tell me, based on your knowledge, if learning Thai will help me out some with the Tibetan? I suspect from picking up a few words of Thai it will, since I find it's forcing these conditioned neurons into a different way of linguistic processing that feels more similar to the Tibetan structure. As far as I understand, they are the same family of languages. Or am I wrong on this? Anyway, your thoughts on would be most appreciated. 7210 From: ppp Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidharma, Translation, Etc. Hi, Erick: You asked me a wrong question. Now I have to explain language families in the South-East Asia and as you know, Sarah and Jonothan do not like us to discuss topics other than the Dhamma. However, I cannot resist, so here it is. In general, historical linguists post either four or five language families in the South-East Asian region. Probaly, (one of the) oldest family is called "Austronesian" whose original speakers lived in the southern China which now we call Fijian(?speeling?) around 5000 BC. They crossed the strate(?spelling?) and migrated to Taiwan and lived there for about 1000 years. From there most of them headed to Philipine islands, Boruneo, Indonesia, and some of them even went to Madagacaru near the east African coast. The other group headed east, skimming the norther shore of Papua New Ginia (whose residents moved to the island much much earlier (i.e. 60,000 years ago); they are closely related with Austoralian aborigional people) and spred into South Pacific region (including New Zealand, Eater islands, and Hawaii). The emigration of these people in the South Pacific region only took for the last 1500-1000 years. You can regard Indonesian as a proto typical language of this family: relatively simple sound system (most of Austronesian languages employ either four or five vowel system), with some complexity involving verb phrase construciton. The second oldest language family in the region is so-called "Mon-Khumer Languga Faimily" (which includes such major languages as Mon, Cambodian, and Vietnames). Khmer people occupied the current Cambodian region no later than the turn of the Christian era (as documented in a Chinese record). Meanwhile, Mon people used to live in the region which we call "Burma". Mon people were highly educated people and they practiced the Theravada Buddhism. They were eventually conqured by the Burmese people who decended from the Tibetan plateau roughly around A.D. 1000. These conqurers were in fact educated by the Mon people who lost their country ever since. Mon and Khmer languages used to be so-called register languages, which make use of differnt phonetion types (i.e. regular/modal voice and breathy voice distinction). (I do not want to get into details, but in Khmer, the disappearance of this voice distinction caused the doubling of the nubmer of the vowels. That is, they ued to have only 15 or so vowels, but now they have at least 30 vowels depending on diarectal differences. Khmer is noted for the extensive use of "infixing", which we do not have in English (other than such a rare case of "ALA @#$%-ing BAMA"). (Philippine languages, such as Tagalog, are also noted for extensive use of infixation). The next languag family is so-called "Thai-Kadai" (I will not explain the etymology of the term here) but Thai and many minor languages which can be found in the sourthen China region are closely related. The Thai people used to live southern China, having a very powerful nation called Nanchao. Their capital was well protected and also on commercail routes. Chinese tried to conqure this nation many many times, but they never succeeded. It was Gingis Hun's(?spelling?) armies which explled the Thai from Nanchao. Thai and Chinese sound very similar and also structually look similar. However, if some people say that Thai and Chinese are histroically related, it is not an accurate statement. Lastly, Burmese and Tibetan are histroically related, forming so-called "Tibeto-Burman Language Family". This family, in turn, has a much larger family which we call "Sino-Tibetan Languge Family". The current Tibetan and current so-called Chinese sound/look very differnt. However, proto-Tibetan and proto-Chinese are said to be closely related. As you know that Tibet used to be a huge empire, so the Tibetan lanauge reflect various dialectual differences. But as far the most prestigous Lhasa direct is concerned, the orginal tonality has become quite impoverished. From a syntactic view point, due possibly to the close contact with Indic languges, they developed case marking. And as I mentioned previously, affixation for the tense/aspectual system seems to be quite complex. Please understand that I've talked about the "history of the language families" in South East Asia regions, which somehow exclude a much much earlier history of the region. (Historical linguistics has its limit in tracing linguistic relations. Now, I will answer your question. I do not think that learning Thai will directly help you learning Tibetan. They belong to (totally) different language family. But, then, why are you afraid of learning Thai? Languge is not something to memorize but to analyze. You need not memorize all the words, but you have to understand how a given language works. It won't take more than two full months to undersand the structure of any language. Instead of trying to learn/aquire, just approach Thai in a logical/intelligent manner, and see how Thais say things. Gook luck, tadao (It's your responsibility to applogize Sarah and Jonothan, since you initiated me to talk about something which is not Dhamma.) 7211 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 2:21pm Subject: List Guidelines Dear All The list Guidelines have just undergone one of their periodic up-dates. Please check the exciting new features at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup%20Guidelines.htm Anders and Cybele, please see our note to you off-list. Thanks. Our thanks to you all for your continued support for the list. Jon & Sarah 7212 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:36pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: cybele chiodi Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 4:31 AM Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders > >Offline? Like in person, or the phone? > > Oh, my! OFF LIST!!!!! > Terrible Danish plague, you are my kammic punishment; I have to raise up > this clever brat... :-)))) Sure, catch you on the flip-side of your Italy trip. 7213 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 4:38pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 5:09 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Samatha-Vipassana- Anders --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > > What is this stuff of 'poisonous mushrooms? > > If I knew, I'd be mixing it in my basement :-) >This so-called "poisonous mushroom" you are referring to is known by the clinical name "Amanita muscaria," or more commonly, the "fly agaric." It is the fairy-tale-like toadstool with a large red cap and white spots. Hey, those are actually quite common here. 7214 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Mike An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference to 'making a wish' might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Just thought I'd add this to the thread: > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining > results. If they follow the holy life even when having > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. > If they follow the holy life even when both having > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > even when neither having made a wish nor having made > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining > results. > > Bhumija Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html > > mike > 7215 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Theravada and Satipathana - Derek --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Jon, > > You're correct that "steps" is a misleading word to describe the > parts of the Noble Eightfold Path. That was sloppy translation on my > part. I guess "limbs" would be a better word, although talking about > a path having limbs does sound odd in English. > > ("Nobre Caminho Óctuplo" for my Brazilian friends -- I just learned > that today!) > > As for claiming that Right View (sammaa di.t.thi) and pañña are the > same thing, I think you're conflating the eight limbs to point where > it becomes a "Noble 1-fold Path." I'm not sure what I said that leads you to think this, Derek. There is of course no '1-fold path'. Panna is one of 5 (or 8) factors that arises at each mundane (or supramundane) path-moment > It's true that there is a sutta (Mahaa Cattaariisaka Sutta, MN117) > that shows how all the parts of the path are related to each other: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > But even here Right View is said to be the "forerunner" of everything > else, and NOT a substitute or equivalent for everything else. In > fact, this sutta suggests that right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) > is what's most important, and everything else plays the part of its > supports and prerequisites. I've not had a chance to look at the sutta yet. But I am aware that the factors are sometimes given in the manner you have described. This is done to show their interdependence, I believe. I did not mean to suggest that panna was a substitute for everything else. But when panna of the level of satipatthana arises (ie. mundane path moment), the other 4 path-factors arise together with that moment of consciousness. Jon 7216 From: Anders Honoré Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! > Mike > > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference to 'making a wish' > might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. My guess would be that as long as you follow the path of practise, it is irrelevant if you have desire (or are wishing) for liberation and Nibbana. 7217 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Rob E Thanks for these thoughts and comments. It is a perplexing area. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Thank you, Jon. I know you are not claiming to understand this > difficult > formulation, but I wonder what your take is on how consciousness, which > is still a > conditioned phenomena [?] can itself grasp Nibbana, whose 'one intrinsic > nature' > is being 'totally transcendent to the conditioned world'. This seems to > be on the > face of it wholly self-contradictory and therefore impossible. Surprising, perhaps. But self-contradictory I don't see. The important question is not what the intrinsic nature of nibbana is, but whether it has an intrinsic nature capable of being experienced by citta. Don't forget that citta can experience objects that are not of the present life or plane of existence (jhana cittas, even bhavanga cittas which arise for all of us). The citta that experiences nibana is a supramundane citta, ie a citta of a plane other than this sensuous plane. > It would need an unconditioned, transcendent consciousness to grasp an > object or > state with a totally transcendent characteristic. This may be how it seems it should be, to our way of thinking. But what do we know about such matters? If that consciousness > is indeed > transcendent and unconditioned, it seems to me that this is a redundant > statement > of the definition of Nibbana itself. Therefore the proposition is > reduced to > Nibbana experiencing Nibbana. But this separates Nibbana into subject > and object, > whereas there is no subject-object separation in Nibbana, and Nibbana is > one not > two. > > If anyone can respond to this, I will be happy to remove the clouds from > my mind. I'm sure this won't have had that effect, but I hope it might provide some food for further thought. Jon 7218 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 5:48pm Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Rob E Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > The main point of my post was that people usually deal with desire in > one of two > ways: > > 1/ they follow desire > 2/ they suppress desire Agreed. Neither is wholesome, and realising this can be a condition for us not to react that way sometimes. But the fact is, we do continue to react like that way, because we have the strongly accumulated tendency (anusaya) to do so. > Those who have decided that desire is 'bad' tend to try to get rid of > it. > Sometimes this involves sweeping it under the rug and making believe it > isn't > there, or trying to expel it by main force. > > My point is that by working with desire we are in a more honest > relationship to it > and can face it and gradually erode it. > > I don't think that having a forceful struggle with desire gets rid of > it. I think > it adds a secondary complication, that one has desire and on top of that > is in a > state of struggle. > > Treating desire with mindfulness is more effective than suppressing it. > Allowing for the natural occurence of sexuality as part of life without > suppressing it but without succumbing to it or being addicted to it, > seems like a > way to work with it. > > Is this pop psychology? [I've now moved from tired rhetoric to pop > psychology. > Oh well!] I don't know. If one wants to be celibate and work with > desire as it > arises, that's fine. But if one is married, as I am, or otherwise has > sexual > relations, then the question is: how do you work with sexuality and how > do you > work with desire. > > No conclusion, but those are my thoughts. > How would you work with sexuality and desire in order to free yourself > from > attachment and aversion? > > It seems like you are saying that such a task is nearly impossible. So > what is > your approach that you think is most sensible for the path? > > Robert I see dealing with akusala and developing the path as 2 separate things. When I am thinking about dealing with my akusala, I am in strong 'self' and 'conventional world' mode. I would like to be without that akusala or at least some of it. My motives may be 'good' ones (consideration of others etc), but my thinking is basically self-centered. The development of the path, as I understand it, is the study of a reality appearing at the present moment, with awareness. If that reality is an unwholesome moment of consciousness, that would not preclude it being the object of study or awareness. All realities are to be known. This is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta, where the 5 Hindrances are specifically mentioned as among the mind objects to be known. So to sumarise, working with my akusala (sexual or otherwise) does not as such come into the picture, in terms of the development of the path. I don't know if I have managed to explain this. Jon 7219 From: Herman Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:32pm Subject: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Jon, I haven't been able to determine it from your posts, so I'll ask straight out. Is any of your kusala sexual in nature? I don't necessarily restrict the question to you, but generally speaking. It is good to have you back after your absence. Herman --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. > > > So to sumarise, working with my akusala (sexual or otherwise) does not as > such come into the picture, in terms of the development of the path. I > don't know if I have managed to explain this. > > Jon > > 7220 From: Herman Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: List Guidelines Sarah, Either you have a wicked sense of humour, or the internet gods are playing havoc with the link you posted. Either way, I'm sure it will come good. And I have missed your ever skillful pointers to the here and now. Herman --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear All > > The list Guidelines have just undergone one of their > periodic up-dates. Please check the exciting new > features at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DhammaStudyGroup 20Guidelines.htm > 7221 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 8:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: List Guidelines Dear Herman, The link in our message works fine for me in our original message, but not in yours. As an alternative, try this one which is shorter in 'files', and go to Guidelines. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for setting a good example, Herman. Sarah p.s. Kom, could you check this out? Maybe a shorter link? Thanks Kom and Rob for your help and advice. --- Herman wrote: > Sarah, > > Either you have a wicked sense of humour, or the internet gods are > playing havoc with the link you posted. Either way, I'm sure it will > come good. And I have missed your ever skillful pointers to the here > and now. > > Herman 7222 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 9:55pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 2:32 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > >Thank you for explaining the (not yours) view point. Why do we say the > tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What doesn't= > exist? > > Nibbana? So, you are saying that you think we understand that the only thing that exists in Nibbana, and not all the kandhas? kom 7223 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:50pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Anders Honore How are you? You asked: "Do you know how much time was spent translating from Pali to Burmese?" I haven't thought about it, so I have no idea. But, I guess that they must have been tanslated in the early sixties (when Chatthasangiti took place). Sorry about my guess work. With regards Suan --- "Anders Honoré" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 5:58 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try > Myanmar Embassy > > Dear Tadao > > > > How are you? > > > > The translations in my message refer to those in English. > > So, Anders would not need to worry about learning Pali or Burmese. > > > > Having said that, the Chatthasangiti Tipitaka Burmese Translations > > do exist. And these translations are also the results of collective > > literary minds. They are as terse and clear-cut as the original Pali. > > Do you know how much time was spent translating from Pali to Burmese? 7224 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:07am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Cybele How are you? You asked: "Why, do you reckon that only Burmese language can be 'kind'?" I have no idea. I have never reckoned it. I thought it was your reckoning. I thought you have been in the context provided by Tadao. Without realising your change of context, I must have misread your message in my drowsiness. Tonight is also no difference, either. It is now after 2 AM in Canberra. I am very sleepy. Apology if my response puzzeled you and gave the wrong impression. I will be careful in future. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > > > Dear Suan > > > > >Dear Cybele > > > >How are you? > > > >Thank you for your generous description of Burmese language. > > > Why, do you reckon that only Burmese language can be 'kind'? > Loving kindness is a universal language and can fits any ethnology, grammar > and phonetics - no discrimination. > > Actually I have been in Burma and for the sake of truth, they are gentle > people, obviously I exclude the government from my remark. > > Regards > Metta > > Cybele > 7225 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:26am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao How are you? You wrote: "So are you saying that if one just drop into a Burmese embassy and pays a certain amount of fee, one can get an English translation of the whole Tipitaka..." Not so fast, Tadao! I don't know the form of help a Myanmar embassy could give you. But, they would certainly help you becase those translations are sponsored by the Myanmar government. You have to find out and see what happens. I am also not sure that English translation of the whole Tipitaka has been completed. You also wrote: "(and that, if one wish, one can get a Burmese version, too)?" Chatthasangiti Tipitaka Myanmar translation is now available both as books and on CD-ROMS. You also wrote: "(I know that the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script is the most authoritative/most beatifully edited Tipitaka.)" I couldn't agree more in this regard. As this Pali Tipitaka is Chatthasangiti edition, I like this version best as you would expect. With regards Suan --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Suan: > So are you saying that if one just drop into a Burmese embassy and > pays a certain amount of fee, one can get an English translation of > the whole Tipitaka (and that, if one wish, one can get a > Burmese version, too)? (I know that the Pali Tipitaka in the > Burmese script is the most authoritative/most beatifully edited > Tipitaka.) tadao 7226 From: ppp Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 10:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Hi, Suan: So do you have a whole set of the (hard, pale-yellow, cover) of the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script? Lucky you. tadao 7227 From: <> Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 6:46am Subject: Drugs I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat the time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - an experience - and only exists as a memory afterwards, and ifit was pleasant: something to long for. After awhile on psychadelicsI began to use 'numbing' drugs, which basically quenched out thedesire for the psychadelics (for a time). But, even this I began tosee as futile because eventually they would wear off. So, this led meto conclude that a true, lasting happiness (void of longing) is whatis to be sought after, and this is exactly what Buddha taught. While on the drugs I learned nothing, but after I reflected on what had happend, then I learned things. One time, I went outside and was sure I finally understood God. It was an amazing feeling, but after I 'came down', it was really quite laughable. This also taught me that an impermanent insight is no insight at all. Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. In Dhamma 7228 From: ppp Date: Mon Aug 6, 2001 11:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs Hi, o0ss1234: You are a wise person, who can refrain from clinging to (any) unsual experiences. tadao 7229 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Erik I know you're busting for a full-scale debate on this, but there may be a problem. --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah > Ma drup! (is not established!). Meaning, the question's invalid, > given the original challenge was to provide the citation from the > Suttas for the statement that "meditation on the breath is too > difficult for all but the rarest of disciples," which I reject in > this debate as NOT being established as what the Buddha actually said > anyplace in the Suttas. > > In other words, if you make the claim, you have to back it with > either air-tight reasoning OR cite the direct words of the Buddha (or > accepted references ALL participants agree are correct Dharma, which > by implication would all be "word of the Buddha" if there is such > agreement). Before this debate gets too wound up, could we have the source of the statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the rrest of disciples", please. I don't recall this being said on this list. I do recall some statements about breath as object of samatha development, but the context of your discussion is, I believe, vipassana (judging by the subject-heading). Let's get the alleged statement identified first. Jon 7230 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:27am Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana Anders Just a question here to clarify, please. --- Anders Honoré wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 6:33 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana > > > > Hi, Anders - > > > That's my problem whenever I meditate on the breath: As soon as my > body > > > calms down in half lotus (in full lotus I'm still gasping for breath > because > > > of the pain so that's not a problem :-)), my breath becomes > extremely > faint > > > after just a few minutes, and it becomes hard to observe it, and > hence > my > > > attention wanders. > > > > > > Anyone got any advice? > > ============================== > > The fact that the breath becomes faint and subtle *is* a > problem, > but > > also a great opportunity. As the breath sensation fades, there must be > a > > corresponding strengthening of energy, mindfulness, and concentration > > (directed by will) in order to "stay in touch", and this will take the > mind > > to a deeper and stronger levels. This becomes easier to carry out the > longer > > and more consistently one practices. > > Wow, thanks a lot. Just that change of perspective is something I find > quite > illuminating. When you talk about meditation on breath, do you mean breath as object of the development of samatha or of vipassana? ('Meditation' is such a vague term, don't you find?) Jon 7231 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:13pm Subject: Drugs and the Dharma --- <> wrote: > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat the time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - an experience Thank you for this important reminder! I have to say that was also one of the most incredible lessons I learned from them. Like you, I had many profound, mind-opening experiences. One in particular, with psilcocybin and harmaline (inspired by Terence McKenna's "Experiment at La Chorerra"), that was, well, the greatest bliss I'd ever imagined possible a human could stand to experience at that time (psilocybin has the ability to open the "nadis" in a very big way and provoke Kundalini). I recall days of joyous elation in the afterglow of this discovery, on par with what I believe many Kundalini yogis have written of in the past. The thought passed my mind at the time to burn all my books on spirituality I'd ever read up to that point (I didn't, but the thought nonetheless occurred), even my Zen books. ESPECIALLY my Zen books. The power of that experience made everything I'd read and studied in Buddhism seem so boring by comparison. But within just a week or two, KEEERAAASH!!! All that bliss, *poof*, gone! In fact, not just gone, but I was left with a deep aching depression and enormous bwilderment at how something so far beyond any previous conscious experience--something so powerful--could just evaporate, and not only that, leave me feeling even MORE depressed than I had been feeling before this illuminating experience! Nevertheless, I also learned that the Hindu tantric yogis of the past had not lied about what is possible with the human body, which lead me to seek out my Guru in Kundalini yoga at the time, Ravi Singh, a very kind gentleman I greatly admire, to teach me Kunadlini yoga--so I could learn to recreate these bliss states without the help of drugs. I wanted to be able to sustain that bliss permenently. In fact, the power of this experience led me to strongly question Buddhism, because up to then I'd practiced Zen, but nothing from my consideration and (admittedly very poor) practice had brought me anything like a result I was seeking, and by comparison the Buddha's Dharma all of a sudden seemed so barren to me compared to this exalting-feeling bliss. Within one day of learning Kundalini yoga there were immediate results! GREAT, I remember thinking! Of course I was still experimenting with psychedlics. At around this time, I recall wanting to try the most powerful psychedelic of all, ahayuasca--a magical potion (which consists of the drugs DMT and harmaline) Amazonian shamans have taken for some millennia to leave the body and see into the past and future. This experience with ayahuasca nearly killed me. Not because of the drugs themselves, which are physiologically rather benign (DMT--the most psychoactively potent psychedelic drug known to man--is, after all, a native neurotransmitter all humans possess in some quantitiy in the brain). This experience nearly killed me because within a few minutes of ingenstion I was knocked out of my body and straight into the hell- realms, which up to that point I had believed were mere fanciful tales used to scare us into being good. As I came to see, they are fabrications like all conditioned eralities, but like fabrications certainly "real enough" in the way our world experiened through the fiev sense-doors is "real enough"! I was in so much terror for so long (the drug effects last three to four human hours, but the boundaries of what we condsider time are destroyed in this state so a single human second can often pass as an aeon), and after what seemed like eternity after eternity of thinking I (there was no recollection of a "me" per se, only unspeakable suffering) would completely lose my mind, where all reality had been shattered so thoroughly, when I briefly became conscious there was still a sentient being lying on a couch, I thought that body was surely going to die from sheer, unabated, horrifying terror so heavy no descriptions can do it justice. It was only by taking refuge when I was able to regain the tiniest bit of awareness of my "self," those rare moments not being attacked and torn to shreds over and over again by ferocious demons, that I believe was what preserved this body so that it is alive today. The terror didn't end completely there after the ayahuasca wore off, and for months afterward there were moments of panic that would arise at the thought of my mind dissolving back into this state of uncontrolled terror even during regular waking consciousness, such that I lived in almost daily fear that if I might very well lose my mind. Talk about a lesson! This made me see the complete and utter futility of, as you noted, chasing after "experiences." This pair of experiences had the effect of bringing me STRAIGHT back to the Buddha's Dharma, beacuse the Buddha says very clearly that the lives of even the devas are not to be sought after, because like clockwork, they inevitable lead to further rounds on the wheel of rebirth. One can have the great bliss in one lifetime followed immediately by the sufferings and torments of the hell-realms for as long as one remains bound to the wheel of samsara. So again, it was this pair of experiences that led me to once again return squarely to the pursuit and development of the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path, the ONLY way, I had come to believe--after all my studies and testing and experimenting--that would lead to the final cessation of this round of suffering--both so-called "pleasurable" (because even pleasure is suffering, ultimately) and painful. And yet, these experiences also indicated that what the tantric yogis taught about the physiology of the body are VERY real, that this fathom-long body has within it the hells and the heavens, and that its physiological structure as elaborated in tantric texts ARE correct. There seemed only one natural place for me to go at this point, given these expriences; a system combining both the understanding of this physiological reality of the human body AND the Buddha's message on permanently terminating the rounds of rebirth through seeing through the instubstatiality and mere appearances of things, which is, of course, the system labelled Buddhist tantra. Because the Buddhist tantrikas had figured out a way to take advantage of these physiological structural realities of the human body disovered by all tantrikas, in such a way one could skillfully harness the the understanding of these physiological realities to permanently terminate the wheel of suffering we know as samsara. The rest, as they say, is history, and this lead me, though a number of very auspicious and fortuitous curcumstances to my present (unbeleivably kind) teachers and teaching lineage--where we didn't begin studying all this esoteric tantric stuff, but rather, began at the beginning, with the simple stuff, the most basic stages of the path: 1) renunciation--giving up on this life by recognizing the preciousness of this human rebirth and the sufferings of cyclic existence; 2) Bodhicittia--cultivating lovingkindness toward all beings who have been our mothers; and 3) Right View--seeing things as they truly are: that the infallible law of karma NEVER fails; that all conditioned things are suffering; that all conditioned things are impermanent; that ALL realities are empty of intrisic self-nature; and that all things arise in dependence on conditions! CORE Buddha-dhamma, in other words! And this so thrilled me, made so plain what had been previously unclear, that I finally came to clearly understandand that THIS IS IT! I was hooked! After years of missteps, diversions, wrong paths, came to agree intellectually, at least, that the teachings of the Buddha were dead-on! And I could have never have come to this undersatnding without these "experiences." Just like you! Further study into these essential teachings of the Buddha began to reveal more and more of how reality both does and does not exist-- particularly due to the study of the last element of the threefold path I was trained in (Lam Rim), Right View. Such that by paying careful attention to my teachers, who I had come to have faith were teaching Right View; by careful analytical meditation and reflection on their teachings of how all things are empty of self-nature and depend on conditions for their arising; by asking question after question of them to help clarify and refine my understanding, never giving up on asking the tough questions, probing relentlessly (in keeping with my teachers' instructions on how to test the Dharma as if one tests gold to discern what is gold from what is fool's gold: burning, cutting, grinding, over and over again, refining and purifying, until only what is pure gold remains); and by diligently putting into practice their instructions on applied meditation, meaning: sitting consistently every day without fail-- following the breath in the way Lord Buddha taught in the Satipatthana Sutta--that knowledge arise, vision arose, insight arose, to the degree that what had once been unclear became perfectly clear; what had once been in doubt ceased to be a matter of doubt. That the correctness and essence of Lord Buddha's Holy Dharma became as clear and real as cool light of the full moon in a cloudless winter sky to these five khandas: that THERE IS CERTAIN DELIVERANCE from the rounds of suffering and rebirth! That the Law karma NEVER fails! That ALL things (even Nibbana) lack self-nature; that all composed things are impermanent; and that all composed things, being impermanent, are also suffering by their very nature; and that suffering can be brought to comlpete and total cessation by letting go of all views, suppositions, positions, and grasping. Amazing, amazing indeed! OM GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA!!! > Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! Quite the opposite, in fact. Yours in the Dhamma! Erik 7232 From: Herman Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:21pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Jon, I don't have the time or the inclination to search through the list to prove a particular point, but I seem to recall that Erik's recollection of statements made re breath being an unsuitable object of meditation, because of difficulties associated with, is correct. Regards Herman --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > I know you're busting for a full-scale debate on this, but there may be a > problem. > > --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah > > > Ma drup! (is not established!). Meaning, the question's invalid, > > given the original challenge was to provide the citation from the > > Suttas for the statement that "meditation on the breath is too > > difficult for all but the rarest of disciples," which I reject in > > this debate as NOT being established as what the Buddha actually said > > anyplace in the Suttas. > > > > In other words, if you make the claim, you have to back it with > > either air-tight reasoning OR cite the direct words of the Buddha (or > > accepted references ALL participants agree are correct Dharma, which > > by implication would all be "word of the Buddha" if there is such > > agreement). > > Before this debate gets too wound up, could we have the source of the > statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the > rrest of disciples", please. I don't recall this being said on this list. > I do recall some statements about breath as object of samatha > development, but the context of your discussion is, I believe, vipassana > (judging by the subject-heading). Let's get the alleged statement > identified first. > > Jon > 7233 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 0:52pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Erik > > I know you're busting for a full-scale debate on this, but there may be a > problem. Definitely am ready for a debate on this, beacuse it is a debate I believe is absolutely VITAL to cultivating Right Mindfulness, one of the essential limbs of the Noble Eightfold Path. > Before this debate gets too wound up, could we have the source of the > statement that "meditation on the breath is too difficult for all but the > rrest of disciples", please. I don't recall this being said on this list. > I do recall some statements about breath as object of samatha > development, but the context of your discussion is, I believe, vipassana > (judging by the subject-heading). Let's get the alleged statement > identified first. Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me this one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the Visuddhimagga VIII.211: "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons." This is the basis for ALL the arguments I've so far seen here AGAINST parcticing minfulness on the breath. What I am challenging is the INTERPRETATION of this passage when it is used as a way to avoid actually attmepting to practice mindfulness of the breath (which again, is the VERY FIRST meditation given by the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta in his instructions to his disciples on Right Mindfulness). In other words, what does this passage refer to when it says this, REALLY? Perhaps a Pali scholar can take us word-by-word through the original. Perhaps we can unpack what is referred to, specifically, by "Buddhas' sons" and "trivial people" here, because I beleive this may the point upon which the entire debate hangs. As was discovered earlier when the original Pali word for "only way" regarding Satipatthana was read correctly NOT to mean "ONLY WAY," but, rather on correct interpertation leading to "ONLY ONE DESTINATION," I suspect further interpretation here of this passage from the Visuddimagga may bear some fruit. And for that it would be most helpful to have the original Pali and a scholar here who would be kind enough to take the time to interpret this passage word-by- word so we can come to a clear understanding of the definitions as originally stated in the commentary--to WHOM do they really refer, in other words? In particular, the question, what is meant by "trivial persons"? Certainly this can't refer to ALL putthujanas (non-ariya) persons, because until full insight one is by definition a putthujana. And Right Mindfulness is not a mere practice for ariyans, but a necessary prerequisite to ariyan (superior) knowledge in the first place! In addition to a textual analysis of Budhagosa's Pali terms here, we need to find the citations from the original Suttas where the Buddha makes this explicit, from which these commantaries have drawn this statement. So I'd like to put to bed once and for all the meaning of this passage, because I think this is quite dangerous belief--an enormously defeatist belief and position, to believe that those who are fortunate enough to have contact with the Dharma to the extent EVERYONE ON THIS DSG LIST IS, makes, in my opinion, BY DEFINITION EVERYONE HERE NOT a "trivial person"! To me a "trivial person" does not refer to worlding, but to a fairly low class of worldlings. I do not consider a single person on this list a "trivial person" by any stretch of this imagination! :) (and don't go letting that inflate your egos now y'all and go with mana! :) :) :) In fact, I'd go further and say that for anyone here, reading DSG to believe they are a "mere trivial person" would be an extremely and pernicious form of mana (pride/conceit)! This error would be compounded by then using that conceit as a basis for NOT cultivating mindfulness of the breath as the Buddha EXPLICITLY taught FIRST in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta as the BEGINNING stage of the BEGINNING practice of Mindfulness of the Body. So, this is where things stand as I see it. Let's get to the bottom of this question, TOGETHER, because as I see it is is MOST LITERALLY a matter of life and death to get this right. 7234 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 1:30pm Subject: Re: Drugs and the Dharma > Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless > you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! > Quite the opposite, in fact. > > Yours in the Dhamma! > Erik I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I lived, so I basically went with 'legal' Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, according to an essay I read. But, only another reason to work harder, right? Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. Ditto, Joshua 7235 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Erik wrote: > Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many > occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me this > one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can it be > cultivated by trivial persons." Erik, I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with breath as object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness of breathing. I may be wrong, but I don't believe anyone on this list has associated this passage with the references to breathing in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta in particular or to satipatthana/vipassana in general. Jon > This is the basis for ALL the arguments I've so far seen here AGAINST > parcticing minfulness on the breath. > > What I am challenging is the INTERPRETATION of this passage when it > is used as a way to avoid actually attmepting to practice mindfulness > of the breath (which again, is the VERY FIRST meditation given by the > Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta in his instructions to his disciples > on Right Mindfulness). In other words, what does this passage refer > to when it says this, REALLY? > > Perhaps a Pali scholar can take us word-by-word through the original. > Perhaps we can unpack what is referred to, specifically, by "Buddhas' > sons" and "trivial people" here, because I beleive this may the point > upon which the entire debate hangs. > > As was discovered earlier when the original Pali word for "only way" > regarding Satipatthana was read correctly NOT to mean "ONLY WAY," > but, rather on correct interpertation leading to "ONLY ONE > DESTINATION," I suspect further interpretation here of this passage > from the Visuddimagga may bear some fruit. And for that it would be > most helpful to have the original Pali and a scholar here who would > be kind enough to take the time to interpret this passage word-by- > word so we can come to a clear understanding of the definitions as > originally stated in the commentary--to WHOM do they really refer, in > other words? > > In particular, the question, what is meant by "trivial persons"? > Certainly this can't refer to ALL putthujanas (non-ariya) persons, > because until full insight one is by definition a putthujana. And > Right Mindfulness is not a mere practice for ariyans, but a > necessary prerequisite to ariyan (superior) knowledge in the first > place! > > In addition to a textual analysis of Budhagosa's Pali terms here, we > need to find the citations from the original Suttas where the Buddha > makes this explicit, from which these commantaries have drawn this > statement. > > So I'd like to put to bed once and for all the meaning of this > passage, because I think this is quite dangerous belief--an > enormously defeatist belief and position, to believe that > those who are fortunate enough to have contact with the Dharma to the > extent EVERYONE ON THIS DSG LIST IS, makes, in my opinion, BY > DEFINITION EVERYONE HERE NOT a "trivial person"! To me a "trivial > person" does not refer to worlding, but to a fairly low class of > worldlings. I do not consider a single person on this list a "trivial > person" by any stretch of this imagination! :) > > (and don't go letting that inflate your egos now y'all and go with > mana! :) :) :) > > In fact, I'd go further and say that for anyone here, reading DSG to > believe they are a "mere trivial person" would be an extremely and > pernicious form of mana (pride/conceit)! > > This error would be compounded by then using that conceit as a basis > for NOT cultivating mindfulness of the breath as the Buddha > EXPLICITLY taught FIRST in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta as the > BEGINNING stage of the BEGINNING practice of Mindfulness of the Body. > > So, this is where things stand as I see it. Let's get to the bottom > of this question, TOGETHER, because as I see it is is MOST LITERALLY > a matter of life and death to get this right. 7236 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:34pm Subject: Re: Drugs and the Dharma --- Erik wrote: > > > Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless > > you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! > > Quite the opposite, in fact. > > > > Yours in the Dhamma! > > Erik > > I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I lived, so I basically went with 'legal' Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, according to an essay I read. Ah, these drugs target and entirely different class of receptors from so-called "psychedlic" drugs, and are as a group (PCP & Ketamine and DXM/Dextromerthorpan, a common ingredient in many cough syrups like Robitussin DX) known as "dissociatives," which, like the various drugs found in plants like the Daturas (tropane alkaloids like atropine--by the way a nerve-gas-agent antitoxin!) can be extremely dangerous, and cause lasting damage if misused. These dissociative drugs all target specifically the NMDA (n-methyl-d- aspartate) class of receptors. These drugs are in a TOTALLY different class from tryptamine drugs like psilocybin (found in "magic musrooms") and DMT (and for that matter serotonin, which is also known as 5-hydroxy-tryptamine or 5-HT more conveniently), which primarily target the serotonergic system by binding to 5-HT receptor sites, similar to SSRI ("selective" serotonin reuptake inhibitors, which bind to the serotonin neruons' "autoreceptors") drugs like Prozac. Though keep in mind these ALL have cascading effects and also condition other systems in the brain like the dopaminergic system. There is truly no such thing as neuronal "specificity" as some wrongly state with regard to drugs like Prozac, Zoloft, etc., because the brain is an organic whole and you can't affect one part without affecting all the other parts at the same time, to a greater or lesser degree. Anyway, another class of drugs, the phenethylamines--like MDMA (aka "Ecstasy") and mescaline--exert a stronger influence on the dopaminergic system due to their different molecular structure, though these drugs also, again, interact and have cascading effects that affect the serotoneric (and other) systems as well, meaning that even these two classes of drugs with very different molecular structures and binding sites still all manage to fit into the category "psychedlic" or, as Gordon Wasson more appropriatly relabeled them, "entheogenic" (meaning "god inspiring" -- "en-theos"). It should be noted that the same applies to correct practice in the Buddhist sense, particularly as regards the Noble Eightfold path. This, too, is an organic whole, where each limb works in relation to every other limb, so, for example, Right View is a co-factor along with Right Mindfulness which is a co-factor with Right Concentration, etc. etc. > But, only another reason to work harder, right? Exactly! :) > Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. You betcha! Just make sure you search carefully for teachers who you feel you can trust after CAREFUL investigation and testing of what they're telling you. When after CAREFUL consideration and testing you have come to gain confidence that what they're saying is accurate (after again, turning their teachings over and over again in your mind), when they give you instructions on what you need to do in terms of practice, to put those instructions into practice to the VERY BEST of your ability AS SOON AS POSSIBLE--with the very greatest diligence and effort and PERSERVERANCE against ALL OBSTACLES you can muster. And obstacles will ceratinly arise--Mara loves tossing us curve-balls to get us off our game, and the more serious we are, the tougher Mara tests us! This process will CERTAINLY lead to the Noble Fruits of the Path taught by Lord Buddha--which is the entire point of the Buddhist path! Good luck in your journey, my friend! I look forward to meeting you on the Other Side. :) 7237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs Joshua Welcome to the list. I liked your post because I think it brings out the fact that it is how an experience is perceived or responded to by the experiencer that determines it's 'value', rather than anything to do with the intrinsic nature of the experience itself. People have enlightening experiences associated with, for example, near death incidents, loss of a loved one, indeed trauma of any kind. Other people can go through exactlu the same experience and be quite unmoved by it. In my view it would be wrong to see the event as the cause of the realisation, even if in conventional terms we could say that the realisation would not otherwise have happened. The whole of the dhamma is about cause and result. But it is not something we can verify for ourselves here and now by direct experience. It is safe to say that conventinal perceptions are no safe guide in this realm. Past 'enlightening' experiences are very difficult to let go of. However, clinging to such experiences as cause of understanding could lead one to wrong practice. Jon --- Joshua wrote: > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat > the time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - > an experience - and only exists as a memory afterwards, and ifit was > pleasant: something to long for. After awhile on psychadelicsI began to > use 'numbing' drugs, which basically quenched out thedesire for the > psychadelics (for a time). But, even this I began tosee as futile > because eventually they would wear off. So, this led meto conclude that > a true, lasting happiness (void of longing) is whatis to be sought > after, and this is exactly what Buddha taught. > > While on the drugs I learned nothing, but after I reflected on what had > happend, then I learned things. > > One time, I went outside and was sure I finally understood God. It was > an amazing feeling, but after I 'came down', it was really quite > laughable. This also taught me that an impermanent insight is no insight > at all. > > Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist > teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. In Dhamma 7238 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:40pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > --- Erik wrote: > > > Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many > > occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me this > > one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the > > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas, > > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can it be > > cultivated by trivial persons." > > Erik, > > I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with breath as > object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness of > breathing. I did not interpret the exact word "mindfulness" in the above passage to refer specifically to samatha, which in my understanding is more specifically spoken of as an indispensible practice for cultivating tranquility for pacifying the five hindrances, such that Right Concentration has a basis for arising. How did you arrive at the conclusion this is implying samatha? Just curious. 7239 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Erik The use of the same term (anapanasati) in the texts to refer sometimes to samatha and sometimes to vipassana can be a source of confusion. I believe the passage in question goes on to talk about the difficulty of acquiring and maintaining the 'nimitta' (sign), which is of course an aspect of samatha but not of satipatthana/vipassana. Let me check my Vis. at home this evening and get back on this later. Jon --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > --- Erik wrote: > > > > > Okay, let's establish the basis for this. First of all, on many > > > occasions here I have had the quote (I think Robert has given me > this > > > one on more than one occasion, as well as others here) from the > > > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > > > > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > > > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, > Paccekabuddhas, > > > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can > it be > > > cultivated by trivial persons." > > > > Erik, > > > > I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with > breath as > > object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness > of > > breathing. > > I did not interpret the exact word "mindfulness" in the above passage > to refer specifically to samatha, which in my understanding is more > specifically spoken of as an indispensible practice for cultivating > tranquility for pacifying the five hindrances, such that Right > Concentration has a basis for arising. How did you arrive at the > conclusion this is implying samatha? Just curious. > 7240 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 2:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: On the other hand, as discussed earliers, there are hypothesis (for me, > and perhaps actuality for others) that what experience nibbana are the > lokuttara cittas and mental factors (including the N8FP factors) which are > conditioned realities. This hypothesis is, of course, in contrary to the > logics that you have already discussed, that the true characteristics of > nibbana, as unconditioned realities, cannot be fully experienced by a > conditioned consciousness. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it > implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and > unconditioned) can be fully experienced. > > kom yes, that would be correct, until realization that is, when they would be experienced directly, not as concepts, and not by conditioned consciousness. Robert E. 7241 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 3:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:28 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > > > Dear Anders, > > --- "Anders Honoré" > > What I am wondering is how can this possibly be discerned, since the > > arising > > of Nibbana (just to speak of 'arising' and 'dependent' in relation to > > Nibbana seems absurd to my mind) is dependent on the formation of > > consciousness (which ceases upon Parinibbana)? > > >I read your question to be: if nibbana is cognized by conditioned > >realities, and since there are no more conditioned realities (the 5 > >kandhas) associated with the person after pari-nibbana, how can the > >person prove that nibbana existed after all the 5 kandhas (associated > >with the person) have no more conditions to rise? > > Yup. > > >My speculation is that since nibanna is unconditioned realities, its > >characteristics are sufficiently different from the conditioned realities > >that it is obvious that it doesn't rise and it doesn't fall. So even when > = > >the ariyan is not experiencing nibbana (and I hope you agree that they > >are not experiencing nibbana all the time when they are still alive!), > they= > > know with direct knowledge (of having experienced nibbana) that its > >characteristic continue, without rising or falling, even if there are no > >condition at the time for them to experience it. > > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there even > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since Nibbana > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. > > >> Basically, what I am reading from the 'experience of Nibbana is > >>dependent on > >> the formation of consciousness' doctrine is annihilation, because with > >>the > >> cessation of consciousness, > > >I think we (you, Roberts, and I) have discussed the Sutta related to > annihilation on-and-off. Since you didn't add other points to the topics (= > I only remember that you said you disagreed, but didn't give explict > reasons), our discussion here may not any more points to this topics. > > Don't think so either.... > > >The sutta that you raised on this topics the last time concerns V. > Sariputta's answers to the question what happend to the Tathagatha > after his death. I think Roberts had explained sufficiently why the > answer cannot be that there is no longer Tathagatha after his death. > > Yup. I disagreed, but I don't think either view can be properly refuted, so > I decided to leave it at that. > > >This is because there is never Tathagatha at the first place since the > Buddha was a stream of conditioned realities that arise consequentially > and continuously as long as there are conditions for the realities to > arise. At the points of his death, there are no more conditions for the > stream of conditioned realities to continue. > > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to which > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > find the source if you want to)? > > >I think you may want to clarify what your understanding of "annihilation" > is. > > Plain simply: As I see it, a non-annihilationist Buddhadhamma, is one where > an "escape" from impermanent Samsara to permanent Nibbana is possible. A > path where the actually is a real meaning to the practise other than to > practise for the eventual non-existence of the kandhas. But that doesn't > seem to be the case according to you. Hence, I see it as leaning towards > nihilism/annihilation. Yes, I think the problem here is that any assertion that the Enlightened exists 'as Nibbana' after death leads to the formation that there is an eternal soul. That falls into eternalism which the Buddha explicitly rejected. If you deny that Nibbana is experienced after death, as Anders points out, you fall into Nihilism. If you say the Enlightened merely dissolves back into the air as it were then he turns out to just be the product of conditioned causes, the exact opposite of what the Buddha says he is! If Beyond the Beyond merely meant cessation, as Anders pointed out, there would be no need for Nirvana. In fact, we could reach the same effect through suicide. But suicide does not end or cease existence, according to Buddha. As long as there are seeds of karma, the conditioned being will return to this life. Therefore, even though there is no 'soul', there is a consciousness that returns to this life to experience the continuance of karmas. When karmas cease in an Awakened one, what is left over? There must be something other than the kandhas. The Buddha is freed from conditioned causes, so his teaching and activity in the world cannot merely be the arising of conditioned causes and effects, or the Buddha would *not* be free of conditioned causes. So, while we do not want to assert a 'self' or 'soul' which is a separate object in the world, we also have to admit that there is a quality of being that exists outside of conditioned causes while the being, freed from karma, is still alive. that quality of being is not an 'entity'. It is the Nirvanic Awareness, if you like. The Nirvanic Awareness is not personal, as it is free of the idea of a separate entity, yet it must exist after death as well to avoid falling into annihilation. It is free, it is not a self, but it must not be dependent on kandhas or body if it is indeed not dependent on conditioned causes and effects. In other words, if one is to avoid annihilationism, there is an element of mystical duration beyond the body that I believe must be admitted of. What do you all feel the Buddha had to say about this, or did he merely avoid the question, not wanting to turn Nirvana into an object of the mind? And what do you think about my conclusion? Once again, it is just based on my own logical speculation, and not on a strong knowledge of many sutras. Regards, Robert ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7242 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 4:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs and welcome Dear Joshua, You certainly don't sound very senile here! Welcome to dsg and thankyou for your insights below. Yes, the real test of any insight into life and the 'realities' which make up life has to be at this moment. As Tadao said, you're a wise man not to cling to past experiences. It's tempting to think that because of a certain experience, here we are now reflecting on the dhamma. From the Teachings however, we see that conditions are so very very complicated and it's impossible (except at a conventional level) to say we are reflecting now because of any one particular experience. Some like you, because of accumulated wisdom, are able to reflect wisely on the experiences, while others are not. Joshua, thank you for joining us on this topic and we look forward to more contributions from you. Where do you live and what is your background/interest in dhamma?(just if you wish to share this!) Sarah --- Joshua wrote: > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism without me knowing itat the > time. Through drug use I learned that any experience is onlythat - an > experience - and only exists as a memory afterwards, and ifit was pleasant: > something to long for. After awhile on psychadelicsI began to use 'numbing' > drugs, which basically quenched out thedesire for the psychadelics (for a > time). But, even this I began tosee as futile because eventually they would > wear off. So, this led meto conclude that a true, lasting happiness (void of > longing) is whatis to be sought after, and this is exactly what Buddha > taught. > > While on the drugs I learned nothing, but after I reflected on what had > happend, then I learned things. > > One time, I went outside and was sure I finally understood God. It was an > amazing feeling, but after I 'came down', it was really quite laughable. This > also taught me that an impermanent insight is no insight at all. > > Of course, I wouldn't recommend drugs. Better to have a real,Buddhist > teacher. Because of my actions, I may be senile by age 40. In Dhamma 7243 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 5:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drugs and the Dharma ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 2:34 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drugs and the Dharma > --- Erik wrote: Hi Dr. E., Hi Joshua, Namaste! Nice post. Glad to see some science here... sure wish we had more of the Buddha's lectures on science available in English. Your words are nice "mettacation". Sending you a large bolus, Bhante D. 7244 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 5:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs and the Dharma ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 12:13 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs and the Dharma > --- Erik wrote: > > I think drug use taught me a lot about Buddhism Check out "entheogen" in your search engines. For a bit of fun and some Dhamma perspectives (Alan Watts is interesting if one has never touched upon his writings...) : http://www.deoxy.org/ Metta, Bhante D. 7245 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 5:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Drugs Recently, I was asked if there was any chance that entheogens could really be of benefit --- the discussion was with other scientists. Perhaps in psychiatry, one day these things will beneift people. The quick fix to Nibbana just ain't there. There is no free lunch in the universe. For now, the Blessed One I think would have taught that we do the work first... anapanasati, satipatthana... in other words, work with the techniques He used then see what this dukkha business was all about. I do not think He would be against doing the work first (Dhamma Practice) then making very careful inquiry about other things --- but after doing the work. An example of this work is when we bhikkhus seriously reflect on food offered as a support --- medicine. We know how certain foods can affect our meditation, for example, or for that matter how we will end up enduring a hot, humid Asian summer day. Food is medicine to sustain the body for practice --- some monks even mix up all the food offered to discourage craving and interruption of their practice. Some monks eat only out their bowl. But for some reason, doing the work does incredible things. One example was a lay woman in a meditaiton center who went there well enough to make what she thought would be her last retreat. She was in Burma and no treatment was available. After following the instructions for meditation, she returned home completely healed and in remission. That is one very intense example. But another incredible thing is that the practice shows us craving just as it is. When the work is done with Right Understanding and all the leads up to it, then practice is more important than messing with entheogens. It is like asking whether one wants mere releif or release from dukkha. And there is no imediate gratification --- though some people have rapture and many wonderful phenomena --- but that is anicca by its nature and not the goal --- just nice supports. In these times where mind-body health, or may I say holistic health is still in the frontier up against allopathic and corporate medicine (and the truth is they could compliment each other greatly), I would be more inclined to go with good Dhamma practice and follow the advice of a noble, well trained, honest, not in it for the money physician. Also, don't tell yourself you will be senile at 40, o0ss1234 --- fill your mind with wholesome thoughts and dedicate the merits of all your goodness to healing yourself and others who need your honesty and insights. May you do well in your pursuits and practice. and if you have not checked it out, take a look at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ for some good Dhamma (Dharma) reseources for yourself. There are nice selections from the Canon, articles, books, and a guide/search engine that will be a fine addition to your library. The Blessed One taught the Middle Path, not extremes. Fanatics could miss great insights. If an almost old timer got anything out of the 60's and 70's concerning entheogens and expanding consciousness, it would be to tell that the hard work of practice and discipline far out weigh in benefits, the risks of missing insights into the Dharma that can never be expressed in words. Like I tell some of my patients, it is not the medication you need as much as the "Mettacation". So friend, and other folks here, I recommend higher doses of Mettacation: IM (in mind), IV (in virtue), SC (sent conscioulsy), etc. The side-effects are radiant and the application well established. I guess the King of Physicians knew good medicine. May this find all our readers well. Anumodana to all your kusala efforts. Have you had your Mettacation today? ;-) Bhante D. 7246 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 6:58pm Subject: Re: Drugs and welcome --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Joshua, > > You certainly don't sound very senile here! Welcome to dsg and thankyou for > your insights below. > > Yes, the real test of any insight into life and the 'realities' which make up > life has to be at this moment. Not so, Sarah! :) The REAL test is if the afflictions have been permanently terminated or not. 7247 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: Drugs and welcome --- Sarah > As Tadao said, you're a wise man not to cling to past experiences. It's > tempting to think that because of a certain experience, here we are now > reflecting on the dhamma. From the Teachings however, we see that conditions > are so very very complicated and it's impossible (except at a conventional > level) to say we are reflecting now because of any one particular experience. These experiences were only a few in an immense chain of experiences spanning (at least) since I was born till now. I brought up the dope because rikpa did. > Joshua, thank you for joining us on this topic and we look forward to more > contributions from you. > Well, I really don't know very much. > Where do you live and what is your background/interest in dhamma?(just if you > wish to share this!) > I live in USA, and my background is really long & boring. Suffice to say a certain Danish fellow helped me out tremendously, and for the first time I think have some vague semblance of what 'balance' is, even if it is a relative balance. I have been keeping away from discussion for awhile, but recently I thought it best to test myself. For one thing, I need to truly practice right speech, and another, I need to avoid getting caught in endless scholarly speculation. I plan to attend a Meditaton/Chanting/Discussion group soon, and this is a bit of preparation. 7248 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:02pm Subject: Re: Drugs > ;-) > > Bhante D. Thankyou Bhante. But remember, the only good it did me was to beat me over the head till I finally realized it was futile. Even then I didn't comprehend what happened as much as I do now and I would never recomend it. 7249 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:06pm Subject: opportunities, support conditions, abhidhamma, slowing down, drugs and MAYBE Sex! Dear Tadao, Erik, Sukin, Cybele, Herman, A few reflections rather than any answers or debates ;-) ppp wrote: > Hi, Sarah: > (i) Yes, Dhamma must be one of the best medicines for our health. > (ii) Yes, I know, in reality there is no "Canada" no "Thailand", > but just nama or rupa. > (iii) But, as Erick and Mike mentioned, living in a Buddhist > country, such as Thailand, is one of the 'mangalaani uttamaani' > (highest happinesses) tadao > Tadao, I mentioned that there were opportunities for wholesome mental states or actions anywhere at any time. Sometimes we forget this and dream of another time or place which we think would be more favourable or cling to a past experience when it seemed there were more useful thoughts, deeds and even understanding. Cybele asked why you were in Canada if somewhere else seemed more suitable, but of course we are only ever where we are or doing what we're doing because of the combination of very complex conditions which mean we could not possibly be anywhere else at this given moment. It is true that many factors can act as decisive support condition (upanissaya paccaya) for how much or little kusala (wholesomeness) there is at this moment. These may include family, friends, place, temperature or drugs for example. When we were in Bangkok, Sukin ate too much for lunch and found it difficult to attend to the afternoon discussion. It doesn't mean there can't be awareness of the drowsy mental states and there may be many moments of listening carefully in between the drowsiness. Still, we can say that by upanissaya paccaya, the over-eating can be a condition for hearing less dhamma. In Nina VG's book on 'Conditions' (Zolag website),she gives the example of the Buddha's fasting before his enlightenment and became emaciated. Realising it was not the Middle Way, Sujata brought him the rice-gruel and the food was a natural decisive support condition for his enlightenment that night. Nina also gives examples from the Vinaya where the monks are instructed to keep their dwelling-places clean and the example of why the Buddha preached the Satipatthana Sutta in Kuru country: 'by reason of their country being blessed with a perfect climate and through their enjoyment of other comfortable conditions were always healthy in body and in mind. They, happy with healthy minds and bodies, and having the power of knowledge, were capable of receiving deep teachings....' Nina adds: 'the climate was not the only condition for them to receive the teachings, they also had accumulated panna. Oppressive weather and bad food can lead to dosa which may be so strong that one kills or performs other unwholesome deeds.' The point I was making before, however, was that if we cling to a time, place, experience or climate, it is the clinging and aversion that is being accumulated rather than the understanding of realities now or any other kind of skilful state. Many friends here have commented on good opportunities in Thailand. Last year, however, I remember one of our good friends living in Bangkok, Ivan, commented on how he there seemed to be many more opportunities for skilful thoughts and deeds and sati in India on a dhamma trip because in Thailand he's busy with family and work responsibilities and the traffic and pollution are bad and so on. Khun Sujin's comment at the time was that reflecting like this shows the 'strong attachment to the self'. We cling to a place and situation (and take them for being real so often) and to having more kusala. We'd like to have less attachment and aversion and more awareness and other skilful states...just clinging with no awareness of cittas (consciousness), cetasikas(mental factors) and rupas(pysical phenomena) now. Erik, you are very sincerely interested in studying abhidhamma and yet it seems that your idea of 'practice' is something different from this. For Tadao, myself and many others here, understanding the realities taught in the abhidhamma and practice of the Terachings are one and the same. The abhidhamma is not about terms in the book but about these same moments of seeing, hearing, clinging, aversion andother realities appearing now. You (Erik) said: >I am not familiar with any suttas where the Buddha talks about kusala citta and akusala citta. I am familiar with suttas where the Buddha praises skillful activity and criticizes unskillful activity, though. >Rather than talk about abstract notions like cittas (and until you have had DIRECT experience of a citta, please don't come back to me with this "paramattha dhammas" business--cittas are WAY too abstract an concept before such direct experience of them; who but a Buddha or nearly a Buddha directly discern the billionth of a second of awareness each citta represents? Erik, what the Buddha talks about in almost every sutta is about just these very paramattha dhammas, the 6 worlds appearing through eyes, ears, and the rest. He talks about different mental states- ignorance, clinging , wisdom and all the other states which accompany the moments of experience. These are not abstract concepts but what make up our lives now. The reason he talked about these dhammas is because it is possbile right now to be aware of seeing ( a citta) or visible object (a rupa). This is the aim of the teachings; not to 'sustain concentration on your favorite object....' Just now I had to really scold some of my teenage students who were annoying the security guard on their way out of my place. There were a few moments of patience and kindness, but many more of aversion and mana (pride) and seeing, hearing (different cittas) experiencing their objects in between. Beginning to study and know more about these realities is the practice as explained in the abhidhamma and suttanta. There shouldn't be any conflict and life should become easier, not harder. If one has the idea of slowing down one's eating or walking in order to be aware of them, it doesn't 'fit' with the abhidhamma at all. Awareness can only be aware of paramatha dhammas (absolute realities) as explained over and over again and eating and walking are concepts. Processes of cittas pass so very quickly (as you mentioned), so any idea of slowing them down shows a (wrong) idea of self that can do this. <> Thank you for sharing, so very candidly, your drug and other experiences. the more I learn from the abhidhamma (and let me assure you, this is very elementary both theoretically and practically speaking) the more I learn about how very complex paccaya (conditions) are. We think we've arrived here because of different experiences and encounters; I might say I was in that temple in Sri lanka as an earnest meditator and because of that I came across a manuscipt of Nina's book and so on, but really just to form up this moment of seeing or hearing, there are so many conditions including kamma and accumulations. Rather than trying to wrok it all out, I prefer to know a little more about conditions acting now, to show how very anatta this moment of seeing or hearing is. I don't think there has been any contention at all on dsg that there can be right mindfulness AT ANY TIME (yr caps) with or without drugs. The contention, as I recall, was with the idea of taking drugs in order to have awareness. OK Sex for those who've been! I'd just say that sex or going to movies or karaoke (an old favourite theme of Rob's) or even teenage students maybe upanissaya paccaya (and other conditions?) for unwholesome mental states. Does this mean we shouldn't partake (or teach)? I don't think so at all as laypeople. I think there shouldn't be any rules and in any case it will depend on those complex conditions again as to what we do. There are going to be unwholesome mental states regardless and rather than thinking about the story or 'situation' again, I think it's better to live naturally and develop more understanding of the realities again. There can be awareness at any of these times. I just admire those who manage to fit it all in, in addition to work, household chores, Tipitaka and list sudy and posting, breathing practices AND 2 hr meal sessions!! Certainly time to stop! Thanks for being patient. Sarah 7250 From: Erik Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:09pm Subject: Re: Drugs and welcome --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah > > As Tadao said, you're a wise man not to cling to past experiences. It's > > tempting to think that because of a certain experience, here we are now > > reflecting on the dhamma. From the Teachings however, we see that conditions > > are so very very complicated and it's impossible (except at a conventional > > level) to say we are reflecting now because of any one particular experience. > > These experiences were only a few in an immense chain of experiences spanning (at least) since I was born till now. Indeed, my friend, indeed. > Well, I really don't know very much. I bow to your wisdom. > I have been keeping away from discussion for awhile, but recently I thought it best to test myself. And seeking to have one's understanding tested is a sign of great wisdom indeed! > For one thing, I need to truly practice right speech, and another, I need to avoid getting caught in endless scholarly speculation. The degree of wisdom expressed in this little post of yours is really only inspires in me three words: SADHU! SADHU! SADHU! :) :) :) > and to attend a Meditaton/Chanting/Discussion group soon, and this is a bit of preparation. A solid theoretical foundation in the Buddha's Dhamma followed by a consistent, directed meditation practice is a pair of activities that has been demonstrated to bear great fruit! 7251 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Drugs and the Dharma Hello and welcome, Joshua, As a sort of former druggie myself, I came (a very long time ago) to pretty much the same conclusions as you did. As for brain damage, I've read some convincing material on lasting damage to neuroceptors resulting from mdma use, resulting in decreased ability to uptake seratonin, e.g. Then of course (as you hinted) there's the much more immediate danger posed by dealers to your neuroceptors and other bits (cranium etc.). There's been enough pro vs. con talk about drug use lately, I think (you can find it in the archives) and I don't mean to add more to either side with this post. Just wanted to echo your earlier comment, if you don't mind my paraphrasing, as to the unsatisfactoriness, impermanence and emptiness of getting high. In my opinion that's a worthwhile insight (even if only conceptual) and quite consistent with Dhammavinaya. mike --- Joshua wrote: > I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I > lived, so I basically went with 'legal' > Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as > Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, > according to an essay I read. > > But, only another reason to work harder, right? > > Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former > druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. > > Ditto, > Joshua 7252 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Book for prison Does anyone know of some good online free distribution books that might be useful to prisoners? It has to have a "free to reprint for free distribution" on it. No "for personal use". Also, if an online book has no copyright information does that mean it is not under copyright? 7253 From: Joshua Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 9:04pm Subject: precept question Is it sometimes necessary to lethally dispose of poisonous critters? Basically, I have a(nother) black widow living in my back yard, and it has 2 egg sacks. We can't live together. Is there a safe way (for both of us) to dispose of it and it's eggs? And even if there is, isn't it potentially endangering someone else? 7254 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Herman --- Herman wrote: > Jon, > > I haven't been able to determine it from your posts, so I'll ask > straight out. Is any of your kusala sexual in nature? I don't > necessarily restrict the question to you, but generally speaking. I hope I've understood you, Hereman. I think you are asking whether it is possible for wholesome moments to arise during sexual activity. I suppose we are agreed that certain kinds of activity necessarily involve a lot of attachment (it need not, of course, be strong attachment). These would include, for example, watching entertainment, chatting to friends, playing games, reading books (fiction). Sexual activity is another of these. But that doesn't mean there can't be wholesome moments in amongst the moments of attachment. Consideration to those around us, pleasantness of speech and manner, restraint, useful reflection on what has been read or heard, and studying the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment can all occur at one level or another. The more we understand at an intellectual level about the realities that make up our moment-to-moment lives, the more we see that the fact that we are in an 'unwholesome' situation is no bar to there being moments of kusala. For example, we will learn that every moment of seeing and hearing is neither kusala or akusala (it is vipaka), and that the attachment or aversion that characterises the unwholesome situation arises at moments other than those moments of sense-door experience. We are all locked into a life dominated by 'unwholesome' situations, but this should not be a cause for regret, since we are fortunate to have found the dhamma. With the dhamma we are able, despite our inherent akusala, to begin (again) to develop the understanding that leads on the other direction, away from the otherwise inevitable endless round of more lives dominated by unwholesomeness. The idea of a 'life full of unwholesome situations' will be seen for what it is -- a purely conventional perspective. > It is good to have you back after your absence. Thanks Herman. It's good to have you joining in lately, too. I hope I got your question right. If I didn't, please don't hesitate to say. Jon 7255 From: Asterix 7 Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:21pm Subject: Re: Drugs and the Dharma dear joshua, Welcome!, and thanx for the great insights given. For me also, it was the drugs that triggered the journey of the dhamma. The teachings really fall into places, arent they? For every 'outta-this-world' experience there comes the resultant unsatisfactoriness and depression. Everytime asking for more refined experience, it becomes really apparent that how 'we' get dependant on a whole set of alien oblects and substances. Brain-wave vibrations,neuro-electrics,internal chemical reactions....etc..name it, our 'happiness' depends on it. And when I knew the 'super-mundane' experience that drugs give I concluded that every other physical enjoyments cant come even close. Its always nice to meet "druggies" who's 'been-there-done-that' and all other things,who found the buddha's teaching meaningful and finally found someone to look up to! I made a vow to myself that I will stop all 'majjapamadatthana' (intoxicants) and meat eating for a while. So I spent two years of drug-abstinence and pure-vegetarianism (vegetarianism was just for the fun of it, trying to see that whether I can live without the meat eating I love so much - Obelix was my childhood hero), that 2 years expired on last week (27th july). So now, I again started breaking the precepts, impermanence of the 'happiness' is evident again, I confess that I was looking forward to the 'day' ( not during the whole 2 years :o) , only in the last week, ) fantasizing about all the beverages I can drink, all the substances that I can use to get stoned, ( all the dishes that I can eat). {ridiculous, I agree} And of course when the experience is finally realised , it lost its appeal, good old unsatisfactoriness came to me again. regards gayan --- Erik wrote: > > > Nonsense. These drugs will hardly cause "senility." :) :) :) Unless > > you consider this collection of khandas an expression of senility! > > Quite the opposite, in fact. > > > > Yours in the Dhamma! > > Erik > > I didn't want to fool with the drug dealers where I lived, so I basically went with 'legal' Dextramathorphan. This is in the same class as Ketamine & PCP, and can cause brain damage, according to an essay I read. > > But, only another reason to work harder, right? > > Thankyou for your reply. I'm glad to see even former druggies like me can realize the Dhamma. > > Ditto, > Joshua 7256 From: Howard Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 6:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana Hi, Anders - In a message dated 8/5/01 1:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cybele chiodi writes: > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > That part is readily understandable, but how much do you make of the Sutra > in its entirety? > ======================= I'm on my way to work. I will get back to you on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7257 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 10:51pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao How are you? Unfortunately, I do not have a whole set of the (hard, pale-yellow, cover) of the Pali Tipitak in the Burmese script. From that set, I only have Atthasalini. But, I may try to lay my hands on the whole set in future. But, I have Chatthasangayana Pali Tipitaka CD-ROM version 3 produced by Vipassana Research Institute. I also have Chatthasangayana Myanmar Tipitaka CD-ROMs produced by the Myanmar Government through the Department of Sasana Propagation. You can also listen to the whole Tipitaka from these CD-ROMs as recited during the Chatthasangayana Proceedings. With regards Suan --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Suan: > So do you have a whole set of the (hard, pale-yellow, cover) > of the Pali Tipitaka in the Burmese script? Lucky you. tadao 7258 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 11:43pm Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > >. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it > > implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and > > unconditioned) can be fully experienced. > > > > kom > > yes, that would be correct, until realization that is, when they would be > experienced directly, not as concepts, and not by conditioned consciousness. > > Robert E. Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly experienced, since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it also your understanding that until one's consciousness becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they are? kom 7259 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Yes, I think the problem here is that any assertion that the Enlightened exists > 'as Nibbana' after death leads to the formation that there is an eternal soul. > That falls into eternalism which the Buddha explicitly rejected. If you deny that > Nibbana is experienced after death, as Anders points out, you fall into Nihilism. As discussed with Anders earlier, I believe the text's mention fo annihilation is different from what Anders is proposing. My reading on the text about annihilationism is that there are some people who propose that 1) Those commit a kamma is not the same as the one receiving the result. 2) Those who believes that their "self" ends at death. When the kandhas come to an end, because their conditions are extinguished, this is not considered an annihilation in the scripture. > If you say the Enlightened merely dissolves back into the air as it were then he > turns out to just be the product of conditioned causes, the exact opposite of what > the Buddha says he is! Again, there is never a tagatha in the sense of identification or self. The conventional buddha was in reality just a stream of kandhas that end when there are no more conditions for the kandhas to arise. > If Beyond the Beyond merely meant cessation, as Anders > pointed out, there would be no need for Nirvana. In fact, we could reach the same > effect through suicide Beliving that commit suicide to end existence is obviously annihilation. As long as there are conditions to arise, then the kandhas will continue arising. If you commit suicide without having eliminated the conditions of rebirths (of the 5 kandhas), then the stream of kandhas continue in another plane of existence or as another person. >. But suicide does not end or cease existence, according to > Buddha. As long as there are seeds of karma, the conditioned being will return to > this life. Therefore, even though there is no 'soul', there is a consciousness > that returns to this life to experience the continuance of karmas. > > When karmas cease in an Awakened one, what is left over? There must be something > other than the kandhas. The Buddha is freed from conditioned causes, so his > teaching and activity in the world cannot merely be the arising of conditioned > causes and effects, or the Buddha would *not* be free of conditioned causes. The Buddha, after having become perfectly enlightened, continue as conditioned realities. He continued receiving the results of past kammas, obviously conditioned. He had to eat red rice meant for feeding horse for 3 months as a result of a verbal infraction toward a Buddha in a previous life. He suffered injury and physical pain on his toe (as commited by Devadatta) as a result of killing his brother in the previous life (wouldn't you call pain caused by an object "conditioned" by that object?) > So, > while we do not want to assert a 'self' or 'soul' which is a separate object in > the world, we also have to admit that there is a quality of being that exists > outside of conditioned causes while the being, freed from karma, is still alive. > that quality of being is not an 'entity'. There is no buddha inside the kandhas and outside the kandhas. Let me ask you Robert, what do you consider realities and what do you consider as non-realities? I think this is the gist of understanding of what Robert (K) and I are putting forward here. What exists? What doesn't exist? Does the kandhas exist? Does a person, a buddha, a tathagatha exist as an identification? What's the difference between what exists and what doesn't exist? > It is the Nirvanic Awareness, if you > like. The Nirvanic Awareness is not personal, as it is free of the idea of a > separate entity, yet it must exist after death as well to avoid falling into > annihilation. It is free, it is not a self, but it must not be dependent on > kandhas or body if it is indeed not dependent on conditioned causes and effects. This may be logically appealing, but let me tell you that I believe this is very different from the teaching of Theravadan tradition, and I believe different from what the Buddha had taught. > > In other words, if one is to avoid annihilationism, there is an element of > mystical duration beyond the body that I believe must be admitted of. Again, you need to look carefully at what annihilationism in the text is meant to be. kom 7261 From: Joshua Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:48am Subject: everythings ok! I put the spider in a plastic container and let it out by some plants. It's 'eggs' were apparently wrapped up bugs. 7262 From: Derek Cameron Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 5:45am Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation Hi, Anders, I just bought the Wisdom Publications translations because they're the most recent and widely-available. I didn't do any comparisons with other translations. If you only want to buy one, I'd recommend getting the Majjhima Nikaya first. I find it the best source for the core teachings -- assuming that's what you want. I'm also getting fond of the Sutta Nipata, which is a short collection of verses that have quite a different flavor to them than the first four Nikayas. The Samyutta Nikaya has lots of miscellaneous teachings in it covering many, many minor points -- though curiously enough this is the only one with the Buddha's very first sermon it. And the Digha Nikaya, as you know, has the longer narratives. Derek. 7263 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Aug 7, 2001 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book for prison Most things like at Access to Insight have a copyright term that allows free distribution as a gift of the Dhamma. Hi Joshua, Namaste and Good Morning... Get in touch with IMS-Barre. They have a study center out there and could provide some books. All that I would recommend is pay it forward with some meritorious deeds or if possible dana for mailing or whatever is possible to defray expenses, as books do cost and the laws of physics tell us there are really no free lunches in the universe... was that Gary Snyder who said that? ;-) Many of our members here might be also able to offer some good advice in this area... also, if you do have problems, let me know, and I will be happy to give you some private benefactors off the public list you can contact for help. Sarah and Jon ? Robert, Amara? What do you think? Anumodana in your kind efforts, With Metta, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:43 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book for prison > Does anyone know of some good online free distribution books 7264 From: ppp Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 0:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Hi, Suan: Thank you very much for more information on the Tipitak, etc. Could you please tell me how one can obtain the Tipitak CD-ROM? Thank you in advance, tadao P.S. Have you been to Bruma? 7265 From: Herman Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:26am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Hi Robert and Kom et al, I hope you don't mind me joining in. Does the notion of direct, unconditioned, experience have support in the suttas, or is this an addition derived from the commentaries? If I follow, theoretically, the line of deconstruction of realities as it would unfold in the progressive jhanas, I end up with cessation of awareness, awareness of neither this nor that nor anything else. What awareness would it be that was unaware? Regards Herman --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Robert E, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > >. I have also mentioned that with this logics, it > > > implies that none of the true characteristics (conditioned and > > > unconditioned) can be fully experienced. > > > > > > kom > > > > yes, that would be correct, until realization that is, when they would be > > experienced directly, not as concepts, and not by conditioned > consciousness. > > > > Robert E. > > Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the > realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly experienced, > since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it also > your understanding that until one's consciousness > becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they are? > > kom 7266 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] everythings ok! Skilfully done, Joshua! --- Joshua wrote: > I put the spider in a plastic container and let it out by some plants. > It's 'eggs' were apparently wrapped up bugs. > > 7267 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:59am Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Herman Dear Herman, --- Herman wrote: > Hi Robert and Kom et al, > Does the notion of direct, unconditioned, experience have support in > the suttas, or is this an addition derived from the commentaries? I do not remember having read any sutta that supports nor refutes this concept, but again, I am working through the suttas very slowly. I am pretty sure that the commentaries (both translated by V. Buddhaghosa and in the tika) that it is mentioned to be such. > If I follow, theoretically, the line of deconstruction of realities > as it would unfold in the progressive jhanas, I end up with cessation > of awareness, awareness of neither this nor that nor anything else. > What awareness would it be that was unaware? It is unclear (to me) which particular Jhana that you are discussing. For a non-ariyan person, the finest level of Jhana reachable is the 4th arupa jhana (nevasannanasannayatana-jhana), which has the characteristic of the citta of the 3rd arupa jhana as the object. For an ariyan person who develops Jhana that hasn't reached either 1) anagami attainment or 2) the 4th arupa jhana , then jhana having nibbana as the object is possible. For an anagami or an arahant who has reached the 4th arupa Jhana, then sanna-vetayidda-nirodha is possible, where the consciousness and its factor ceases during such session: there is no consciousness cognizing any object. For more details, please see: http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat7.html kom 7268 From: Joshua Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: everythings ok! --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Skilfully done, Joshua! > My father has informed me that a light blast of a fire extinguisher may make the poisonous critters immobile for a time being without killing them, thus safer for me to remove them from the area. Does anyone know if this is true? I think I was lucky this time, as the spider in question ran off into a plant (where I shook it out) and must have been sleeping or something, because it just latched on to a dead leaf that got caught in its web and didn't move (Though it was alive). But, had it been feisty I may not have been able to remove it. 7269 From: Joshua Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: Book for prison --- "Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Most things like at Access to Insight have a copyright term that allows free > distribution as a gift of the Dhamma. Yes. Thanissaro's scholarship coupled with Sutta translations and some works of Thai Ajaans (and an Upasika) seems to cover everything. > Hi Joshua, Namaste and Good Morning... > Hello Dhammapiyo. > Get in touch with IMS-Barre. They have a study center out there and could > provide some books. All that I would recommend is pay it forward with some > meritorious deeds or if possible dana for mailing or whatever is possible to > defray expenses, as books do cost and the laws of physics tell us there are > really no free lunches in the universe... I plan to print the books myself. It is actually quite easy to do so if one invests some money. All one has to do is buy a cheap copy machine (using Toner), a word processor & a long-reach stapler, and they are a veritable self-publisher. If you juggle the paper correctly, there is not a whole lot of difference between the booklets you make at home and any other low-budget booklets. A4 size paper makes for a perfect size booklet as well. Just don't buy an adjustable numerical stamp for the page numbers! But thanks! >was that Gary Snyder who said > that? ;-) He wrote the 'Smoky the Bear Sutra', so he certainly could have. > > Many of our members here might be also able to offer some good advice in > this area... also, if you do have problems, let me know, and I will be happy > to give you some private benefactors off the public list you can contact for > help. > So far everything's going smoothly. > Anumodana in your kind efforts, > > With Metta, > > Bhante D. : ) 7270 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 2:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Book for prison Dear Joshua, Enjoying yr contributions! --- Joshua wrote: > Does anyone know of some good online free distribution books that might be > useful to prisoners? It has to have a "free to reprint for free distribution" > on it. No "for personal use". Any of the books by Nina Van Gorkom or Sujin Biriharnwarnaket on the abhidhamma.com and other websites at this link can be downloaded for free distrib. w/no prob. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links As we're fortunate to have Nina with us here, if you or any of the prisoners have any questions arising from these books, he or other friends here will be happy to try and respond! > > Also, if an online book has no copyright information does that mean it is not > under copyright? I suppose so, but I don't know for other authors......better to keep to ones you're sure of or write to the authors/publishers I'd think... > I appreciate your efforts to share and help others with the dhamma! Sarah p.s Glad the spider found a nice new home! We use similar means and patience with the cockroaches in Hong Kong! 7271 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support conditions, Dear Sarah Fast message as I am in an internet cafe and in Italy they are costly! >Cybele asked why you were in Canada if somewhere else seemed more suitable, >but >of course we are only ever where we are or doing what we're doing because >of >the combination of very complex conditions which mean we could not >possibly be >anywhere else at this given moment. > I disagree radically Sarah! It's true that we have to work out kammic factors that conditions our life BUT there is choice otherwise what's the meaning of AWARENESS if we are 'doomed'? I could choose staying in London or returning to Asia and it was MY PRECISE CHOICE being there. As it was my choice moving from Brazil to Europe and from Europe to Asia. And it is MY CHOICE leading a nomadic life. Sure many factors contribute to 'push' me towards that direction but I decide to surrender or not to such conditions. What puzzles me is as Tadao is so desenchanted with Canada and he is resigning himself to leave there anyway, why don't see it clearly instead of regretting the past and 'dreamming Bangkok'... This is not 'present moment', this is clinging to memories and fantasies in my humble opinion. Love Cybele 7272 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 6:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Hi, Cybele amd Sarah - In a message dated 8/8/01 10:48:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cybele chiodi writes: > Dear Sarah > > Fast message as I am in an internet cafe and in Italy they are costly! > > >Cybele asked why you were in Canada if somewhere else seemed more > suitable, > >but > >of course we are only ever where we are or doing what we're doing because > >of > >the combination of very complex conditions which mean we could not > >possibly be > >anywhere else at this given moment. > > > > I disagree radically Sarah! > It's true that we have to work out kammic factors that conditions our life > BUT there is choice otherwise what's the meaning of AWARENESS if we are > 'doomed'? > I could choose staying in London or returning to Asia and it was MY PRECISE > CHOICE being there. > As it was my choice moving from Brazil to Europe and from Europe to Asia. > And it is MY CHOICE leading a nomadic life. > Sure many factors contribute to 'push' me towards that direction but I > decide to surrender or not to such conditions. > What puzzles me is as Tadao is so desenchanted with Canada and he is > resigning himself to leave there anyway, why don't see it clearly instead > of > regretting the past and 'dreamming Bangkok'... > This is not 'present moment', this is clinging to memories and fantasies in > my humble opinion. > > Love > Cybele > > ============================= This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" question of Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the result of causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would arise randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". However, volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, choices can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not arise randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it goes, on and on! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7273 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 11:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Dear Howard >============================= > This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" question of >Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the result of >causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would arise >randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". However, >volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, choices >can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not arise >randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it goes, on >and >on! ;-)) > >With metta, >Howard > Howard you are indeed a 'peacemaker', it's your 'DESTINY'! ;-)))))) LOve Cybele 7274 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Hello, Howard, --- Howard wrote: > This is a difficult matter. It is that old > "free will" question of > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does > so as the result of > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else > events would arise > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the > "wrong views". However, > volition enters into the various chains of > conditionality, and, so, choices > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all > else, does not arise > randomly, but as the result of causes and > conditions! And so it goes, on and > on! ;-)) This is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of it in the context of the relation of kamma to volition, but your last sentence reminds me of the Acintita Sutta: "Conjecture about...the results of kamma...is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it." Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 Acintita Sutta Unconjecturable http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-077.html 7275 From: Howard Date: Wed Aug 8, 2001 10:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Hi, all - Sorry for the typos! In the following: 'difficulat' = 'difficult' and 'vatious' = 'various'. With mettam Howard > > This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" question of > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the result of > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would arise > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". However, > volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, choices > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not arise > randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it goes, on > and > on! ;-)) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7276 From: Derek Cameron Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 5:52am Subject: Tipitaka on CD-ROM Hi, Tadao, Try this: http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/tporder.html Derek. 7277 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 6:56am Subject: Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... --- Howard wrote: > > ============================= > This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" question of > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the result of > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would arise > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". However, > volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, choices > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not arise > randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it goes, on and > on! ;-)) > -------------------------- So it is Howard. Once we know that volition arises with both kusala and akusala we see that the only way is to develop understanding of any moment. To see that when 'we choose' or don't choose there are only conditioned moments arising. I think because the belief in self is so ingrained most can't see how effort comes about even with the absolute uncontrollability of dhammas. Yet the fact is the further insight into anattaness (conditionality) develops the more right effort arises simply because wrong view has been subliminated. All people whether buddhists , atheists, Talebans, criminals or saints make effort. But right effort at the level of satipatthana (the eightfold path)is associated with wisdom and detachment. Genuine right effort and other factors of the path become strong to the extent that the idea of self becomes weak. We have been born and died in one aeon so many times that the oceans would overflow with the blood just from the times we were killed. And the number of aeons is uncountable. During almost all of these lives we have deeply clung to the belief in self and control, so strongly has it been accumulated Now we - by conditions- are in the extraordinary position of hearing and considering Saddhamma. This is a rare opportunity that arises infrequently in samasara. Still, if accumulated wisdom is not sufficient then we misinterpret the Dhamma and try to find a self and control somewhere. If other parami such as patience have not been accumulated one will look for some fast way, a shortcut, rather than understanding the nature of whatever dhamma arises at this moment. Now is the time to see that there is truly no self. robert 7278 From: ppp Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 0:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Tipitaka on CD-ROM Thank you, Derek! tadao 7279 From: Howard Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 4:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Hi, Mike - In a message dated 8/8/01 11:29:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, m nease writes: > > Hello, Howard, > > --- Howard wrote: > > > This is a difficult matter. It is that old > > "free will" question of > > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does > > so as the result of > > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else > > events would arise > > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the > > "wrong views". However, > > volition enters into the various chains of > > conditionality, and, so, choices > > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all > > else, does not arise > > randomly, but as the result of causes and > > conditions! And so it goes, on and > > on! ;-)) > > This is an interesting point. I hadn't thought of it > in the context of the relation of kamma to volition, > but your last sentence reminds me of the Acintita > Sutta: > > "Conjecture about...the results of kamma...is an > unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, > that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who > conjectured about it." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.77 > Acintita Sutta > Unconjecturable > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-077.html > > ============================ That sutta is one which I like, because it reminds me of something my wife jokingly says to me when I get bogged down in theorizing, namely "Don't bust your brain, Howard!!" ;-)) BTW, thank you for incorporating my typo corrections! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7280 From: Howard Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 4:09am Subject: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, all - I've been reading over and mulling over material on Abhidhamma - with steadily increasing appreciation, BTW. There is one very fundamental principle of Abhidhamma which is kind of a "backbone" for it, namely that there is only one object of discernment, one arammana, at a time. I was curious whether anyone on the list knows the findings of cognitive science or neurophysiology with regard to this issue? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7281 From: Howard Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 4:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/8/01 6:58:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > --- Howard wrote: > > > ============================= > > This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" > question of > > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the > result of > > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would > arise > > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". > However, > > volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, > choices > > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not > arise > > randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it > goes, on and > > on! ;-)) > > > -------------------------- > So it is Howard. > Once we know that volition arises with both kusala and akusala we see > that the only way is to develop understanding of any moment. To see > that when 'we choose' or don't choose there are only conditioned > moments arising. > I think because the belief in self is so ingrained most can't see how > effort comes about even with the absolute uncontrollability of > dhammas. Yet the fact is the further insight into anattaness > (conditionality) develops the more right effort arises simply because > wrong view has been subliminated. All people whether buddhists , > atheists, Talebans, criminals or saints make effort. But right effort > at the level of satipatthana (the eightfold path)is associated with > wisdom and detachment. Genuine right effort and other factors of the > path become strong to the extent that the idea of self becomes weak. > We have been born and died in one aeon so many times that the oceans > would overflow with the blood just from the times we were killed. And > the number of aeons is uncountable. During almost all of these lives > we have deeply clung to the belief in self and control, so strongly > has it been accumulated > Now we - by conditions- are in the extraordinary position of hearing > and considering Saddhamma. This is a rare opportunity that arises > infrequently in samasara. Still, if accumulated wisdom is not > sufficient then we misinterpret the Dhamma and try to find a self and > control somewhere. If other parami such as patience have not been > accumulated one will look for some fast way, a shortcut, rather than > understanding the nature of whatever dhamma arises at this moment. > Now is the time to see that there is truly no self. > robert > ============================== Thanks, Robert! I find this post of yours to be a most insightful one! I am reminded, BTW, of a Hebrew prayer, recited when a happy event occurs, which expresses gratefulness for "having reached this day". As you point out, we should all be grateful that conditions have brought us to this day in which we are exposed to the Buddha's wonderful Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7282 From: Erik Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:24am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science --- Dear Howard, Great to hear of your developing appreciation of Abhidhamma . I know I am biased but I feel this is going together with increasing wisdom. Science cannot investigate nama in the way they are able to investigate rupa. It is something each must see for himself. I like the definition in the International Dictionary of Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it." (cited in Crick 1994, vii). Perhaps the best scientist in cognitive science is Francisco Varela - but then he is a devout Buddhist and constantly refers to Buddhist texts. robert Howard wrote: > Hi, all - > > I've been reading over and mulling over material on Abhidhamma - with > steadily increasing appreciation, BTW. There is one very fundamental > principle of Abhidhamma which is kind of a "backbone" for it, namely that > there is only one object of discernment, one arammana, at a time. I was > curious whether anyone on the list knows the findings of cognitive science or > neurophysiology with regard to this issue? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 7283 From: <> Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 11:32am Subject: accents Q. Can I type alternate Latin characters, such as accents over vowels? A. To type an accent over a vowel, press Alt and E on your keyboard at the same time (nothing will appear on screen), then type the vowel. You can also type these other characters: ñ: Press Alt and N at the same time, then N by itself. ¿: Press Alt, Shift, and / at the same time. ü: Press Alt and U at the same time, and then U by itself. ç: Press Alt and C at the same time 7284 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Anapanasati--Mindfulness of the Breath Erik --- Erik wrote: > --- Jonothan > > > Visuddhimagga VIII.211: > > > > > > "But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to > > > develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, > Paccekabuddhas, > > > and Buddhas' sons are at home; it is no trivial matter, nor can > it be > > > cultivated by trivial persons." > > > > Erik, > > > > I believe this passage refers to the development of samatha with > breath as > > object, which does indeed go by the name of anapanasati/mindfulness > of > > breathing. > > I did not interpret the exact word "mindfulness" in the above passage > to refer specifically to samatha, which in my understanding is more > specifically spoken of as an indispensible practice for cultivating > tranquility for pacifying the five hindrances, such that Right > Concentration has a basis for arising. How did you arrive at the > conclusion this is implying samatha? Just curious. I have looked at this passage again. It seems clear to me that the reference to 'difficulty' is made in the context of the development of samatha with breathing as object. In the texts, the description of mindfulness of breathing as an aspect of satipatthana is intimately bound up with descriptions breathing as one of the objects of samatha. This does not mean that the two are necessarily dependent on each other (and perhaps you would not say that they are). Rather it reflects the widespread practice of samatha at the time of the Buddha and the prevalence of disciples with fully developed accumulations to practice samatha and attain jhana. The Buddha of course encouraged both forms of bhavana, and was able to show that attention to the development of the jhanas need not preclude the development of insight. This may sound a strange thing to say, but it is not so strange when you consider that the object of samatha is a concept, whereas the object of vipassana must be a reality, so at first sight the 2 may seem mutually exclusive. Another essential difference between the 2 kinds of bhavana is that in satipatthana/vipassana, unlike for samatha at advanced levels, there is no ‘choosing’ of an object. It is this aspect that gives rise to the 'difficulty' in the case of samatha and breathing, because as the text explains the chosen object gets fainter as progres is made. Satipatthana on the other hand is concerned with the reality that is appearing at the present moment, whatever that reality is. It matters not whether it is, for example, a mental state or an object that is external to us, because all realities are equally to be known as they are. At this very moment, there are realities arising (seeing, visible object, hardness etc) any of which can be known directly by awareness if there are conditions for it to arise. To ‘focus’ on an object that has been selected for the purpose is to fail to appreciate that opportunity. And is there not at such moment of ‘focusing’ some idea of a self who is directing, experiencing? The texts about mindfulness of breathing must be read with all this in mind, and of course with the understanding that ‘breath’ is a concept, not a paramattha dhamma, and cannot as such be the object of satipatthana. You asked in one of your posts about the reason for the inclusion of mindfulness of breathing in the Satipatthana Sutta and the prominence given to it. The answer is I think found in the following passage from the commentary to the Section on Breathing in that sutta (from the Way of Mindfulness at p.54) – “This is the portal to emancipation of the bhikkhu devoted to meditation on breathing.” A person whose daily life already includes time spent in samatha, and will do so increasingly as he/she progresses through the jhanas, needs to be taught how satipatthana can be developed also. As we are not in this category, any ‘focus’ on our part should surely be on understanding how satipatthana is to be developed in our lives are we are now leading them (the city slicker devoted to meditation on the sense-pleasures!). Nothing said here is intended to suggest that there cannot for use be mindfulness of breathing as mentioned in the Satipatthan Sutta ie. awareness of one of the realities we take for breathing. If that is the reality that appears, there is no reason why it cannot be studied or directly experinced. At such moments there is neither more nor less 'difficulty' than at any other moment. Jon 7286 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Sorry, accidentally sent this without comment. Actually, Mike, you posted this to the list. Are you saying that anyone in particular is a Theosophist? I am not. Kom points out below that one of the definitions of an Annihilationist [Nihilist] is one who believes his 'self' ends at death. I was questioning what then *does* persist after death, a valid question. As for Joseph Campbell, THE MASKS OF GOD is recognized as a classic in its field. I think to call it a popular piece of junk is not very objective, even if you disagree with what he says about Buddhism or other subjects. He is acknowledged as one of the most brilliant minds in his field, and his work is in mythology, so he is not commenting on the practice of any given tradition in the same way that members of this group might. I don't think it can be judged on the same basis, or has much to do with this thread. However, even though you meant to post off-list to those who 'agree' with you, you seem to have some aversion to work through about this, and your strong opinion against mythologists, theosophists and others do not seem to accord with the injunction for 'dropping all views' that the Buddha suggested. I hope that we can discuss the subjects of how Nibbana is experienced, by whom, and what kind of self does or does not exist in reality, openly and with respect. so as not to generate the consequences of negativity at a future date. Thanks, Robert E. ====================================================== --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom, > > You continue to do a wonderful job on this thread. I > think the dificulty many have with accepting the > characterisitics of nibbana results from a very strong > attachment to a theosophistic concept of nibbana as > being essentially identical to the hindu union with > atman (right term?) or christian rebirth with > god--that is, some kind of (re) union with some > supreme and unlimited being. This is unfortunately > echoed also in some interpretations of Zen ('original > mind', etc.). > > This view is, I think, one of the worst problems > facing especially western Buddhists, largely because > of the place of theosophism in western Buddhist > history. A wildly popular piece of junk titled 'The > Masks of God', by Joseph Campbell, infused a whole new > generation with this horrible delusion several years > ago. I think any skilful effort to dispel it is of > priceless merit. > > I post this off-list to a few who I think might agree, > because I believe we have a number of passionate, > 'closet' theosophists in the group who would, I think, > take extreme offense. I certainly don't want to > alienate anyone who might eventually be convinced by > Kom's skill and patience (nothing personal, of course, > Kom--I know it isn't you, or yours). > > mike ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7287 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the > realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly experienced, > since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it also > your understanding that until one's consciousness > becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they are? > > kom I don't think that the five sense organs experience what anything actually *is*. How could they? We don't get an experience of an outer object without a mental interpretation of impressions which are put together by the mind to form an image. Inner objects are generally also clouded by conditioned consciousness. We interpret, assume, anticipate, add, etc., rather than merely experience with clarity. However, it is possible to have moments of insight when we experience exactly what is arising with clarity, and those would be exceptional moments when there is a breakthrough in conditioned consciousness. I believe these breaks in conditioned consciousness to experience true insight are cumulative and gradually lift the level of clarity in the person. They would start as exceptional experiences and as the person moved towards an enlightened state, they would become more and more common. The person would gradually live in a much more perceptive, insightful state, unclouded by false concepts and presumptions. At the point that one had a continuous condition of seeing the exact truth of the kandhas as they were arising, wouldn't this person be enlightened? Robert ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7288 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:49pm Subject: Reorganization of the Files associated with this group Dear Friends, Because egroups appears to have a message width limitation of 70 characters and because the files associated with this list were too long, the files were renamed recently. You may want to update your "bookmarks" or "scrapbooks." If you want to mention a link to the file, please be sure to start the link on a new line. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG_Guidelines http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Delivery_Option http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/USEFUL_POST_L INKS kom 7289 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 2:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... Dear Robert, Would I be right to say that my response to this mail is due in part to the thread itself, to my increase interest in buddhadhamma, to my wish to test my understanding, to my having seen your posting on this list after a long break, to my not feeling so tired, to the memory of Sarah, to the thought about Cybele, to the names Erik, Mike, Howard......, to as you say the aeons of deep clinging to self and control, the Acintita Sutta etc. One condition of which could have made a difference to whether or not this response would have been or 'how' it would have been made. Cetana cetasika has been with every single citta from the begining till this very moment doing its job 'knowing??' better than the 'thinking about' which itself is just Also being so identified with my past experiences it seems logical that I would think that *I* am in control of my destiny. Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > --- Howard wrote: > > > ============================= > > This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" > question of > > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the > result of > > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would > arise > > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". > However, > > volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, > choices > > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not > arise > > randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it > goes, on and > > on! ;-)) > > > -------------------------- > So it is Howard. > Once we know that volition arises with both kusala and akusala we see > that the only way is to develop understanding of any moment. To see > that when 'we choose' or don't choose there are only conditioned > moments arising. > I think because the belief in self is so ingrained most can't see how > effort comes about even with the absolute uncontrollability of > dhammas. Yet the fact is the further insight into anattaness > (conditionality) develops the more right effort arises simply because > wrong view has been subliminated. All people whether buddhists , > atheists, Talebans, criminals or saints make effort. But right effort > at the level of satipatthana (the eightfold path)is associated with > wisdom and detachment. Genuine right effort and other factors of the > path become strong to the extent that the idea of self becomes weak. > We have been born and died in one aeon so many times that the oceans > would overflow with the blood just from the times we were killed. And > the number of aeons is uncountable. During almost all of these lives > we have deeply clung to the belief in self and control, so strongly > has it been accumulated > Now we - by conditions- are in the extraordinary position of hearing > and considering Saddhamma. This is a rare opportunity that arises > infrequently in samasara. Still, if accumulated wisdom is not > sufficient then we misinterpret the Dhamma and try to find a self and > control somewhere. If other parami such as patience have not been > accumulated one will look for some fast way, a shortcut, rather than > understanding the nature of whatever dhamma arises at this moment. > Now is the time to see that there is truly no self. > robert > > > 7290 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:53pm Subject: Re: Reorganization of the Files associated with this group Sorry, it appears that the cap seems to count where the line gets cut off as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG_Guidelines http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Delivery_Option http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Pali_Glossary http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts kom 7291 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Anders, > > --- "Anders Honoré" > wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kom Tukovinit > > > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 2:32 PM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and > annihilation > > >Thank you for explaining the (not yours) view point. Why do we say > the > > tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What doesn't= > > > exist? > > > > Nibbana? > > So, you are saying that you think we understand that the only thing that > exists in Nibbana, and not all the kandhas? > > kom Kom, I would ask you what you mean by 'exists'. I would say the kandhas exist provisionally, in other words they are unstable and impermanent, constantly shifting based on conditioned causes and having no actual identity, while Nibbana alone is self-existent. Are you in accord with that idea, or would you say something different about it? Robert 7292 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 2:00pm Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this. > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > The main point of my > post was that people usually deal with desire in > > one of two > > ways: > > > > 1/ they follow desire > > 2/ they suppress desire > > Agreed. Neither is wholesome, and realising this can be a condition for > us not to react that way sometimes. But the fact is, we do continue to > react like that way, because we have the strongly accumulated tendency > (anusaya) to do so. > > > Those who have decided that desire is 'bad' tend to try to get rid of > > it. > > Sometimes this involves sweeping it under the rug and making believe it > > isn't > > there, or trying to expel it by main force. > > > > My point is that by working with desire we are in a more honest > > relationship to it > > and can face it and gradually erode it. > > > > I don't think that having a forceful struggle with desire gets rid of > > it. I think > > it adds a secondary complication, that one has desire and on top of that > > is in a > > state of struggle. > > > > Treating desire with mindfulness is more effective than suppressing it. > > Allowing for the natural occurence of sexuality as part of life without > > suppressing it but without succumbing to it or being addicted to it, > > seems like a > > way to work with it. > > > > Is this pop psychology? [I've now moved from tired rhetoric to pop > > psychology. > > Oh well!] I don't know. If one wants to be celibate and work with > > desire as it > > arises, that's fine. But if one is married, as I am, or otherwise has > > sexual > > relations, then the question is: how do you work with sexuality and how > > do you > > work with desire. > > > > No conclusion, but those are my thoughts. > > How would you work with sexuality and desire in order to free yourself > > from > > attachment and aversion? > > > > It seems like you are saying that such a task is nearly impossible. So > > what is > > your approach that you think is most sensible for the path? > > > > Robert > > I see dealing with akusala and developing the path as 2 separate things. > > When I am thinking about dealing with my akusala, I am in strong 'self' > and 'conventional world' mode. I would like to be without that akusala or > at least some of it. My motives may be 'good' ones (consideration of > others etc), but my thinking is basically self-centered. > > The development of the path, as I understand it, is the study of a reality > appearing at the present moment, with awareness. If that reality is an > unwholesome moment of consciousness, that would not preclude it being the > object of study or awareness. All realities are to be known. This is > made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta, where the 5 Hindrances are > specifically mentioned as among the mind objects to be known. > > So to sumarise, working with my akusala (sexual or otherwise) does not as > such come into the picture, in terms of the development of the path. I > don't know if I have managed to explain this. I think I understand what you are saying: that development of the path involves expansion of awareness and knowledge of what is really there in the moment, and that this is not a way of working out unwholesome tendencies, but a separate endeavor. But what I have not gotten from this response is how you deal with the akusula. You say that you would like to have less, as a person, of lust or greed, whatever the akusula may be. Is this something that you work out, and if so how? Since we agree that this is part of the foundation of the path, and that neither suppression nor satisfaction of desire lessens the pull of desire, which I would think we would agree would tend to pull us from the path, what is the proper way of dealing with akusula to lessen its presence and its pull? I think that mindfulness of the experience of the akusula lessens its pull. You are saying that these are and should be separate issues. So what is your answer to attachment and desire? Robert ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7293 From: Sukinderpal Narula Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 2:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Awareness and choices it was Re:opportunities, support... It seems that the last post got sent beyond my control, unwholesome cetana did its job. Just want to fill up the missing part in that post; "Cetana cetasika has been with every single citta from the begining till this very moment doing its job 'knowing??' better than the 'thinking about' which itself is just an element having arisen because of conditions." Too lazy to write more. Sukin. Sukinderpal Narula wrote: > Dear Robert, > Would I be right to say that my response to this mail is due in part to > the thread itself, to my increase interest in buddhadhamma, to my wish > to test my understanding, to my having seen your posting on this list > after a long break, to my not feeling so tired, to the memory of Sarah, > to the thought about Cybele, to the names Erik, Mike, Howard......, to as > you say the aeons of deep clinging to self and control, the Acintita Sutta > etc. One condition of which could have made a difference to whether or > not this response would have been or 'how' it would have been made. > Cetana cetasika has been with every single citta from the begining till > this very moment doing its job 'knowing??' better than the 'thinking > about' which itself is just > Also being so identified with my past experiences it seems logical that > I would think that *I* am in control of my destiny. > > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > --- Howard wrote: > > > > ============================= > > > This is a difficulat matter. It is that old "free will" > > question of > > > Western philosophy. Certainly, whatever occurs does so as the > > result of > > > causes and conditions, as taught by the Buddha, else events would > > arise > > > randomly, which the Buddha taught to be one of the "wrong views". > > However, > > > volition enters into the vatious chains of conditionality, and, so, > > choices > > > can be made. On the other hand, volition, like all else, does not > > arise > > > randomly, but as the result of causes and conditions! And so it > > goes, on and > > > on! ;-)) > > > > > -------------------------- > > So it is Howard. > > Once we know that volition arises with both kusala and akusala we see > > that the only way is to develop understanding of any moment. To see > > that when 'we choose' or don't choose there are only conditioned > > moments arising. > > I think because the belief in self is so ingrained most can't see how > > effort comes about even with the absolute uncontrollability of > > dhammas. Yet the fact is the further insight into anattaness > > (conditionality) develops the more right effort arises simply because > > wrong view has been subliminated. All people whether buddhists , > > atheists, Talebans, criminals or saints make effort. But right effort > > at the level of satipatthana (the eightfold path)is associated with > > wisdom and detachment. Genuine right effort and other factors of the > > path become strong to the extent that the idea of self becomes weak. > > We have been born and died in one aeon so many times that the oceans > > would overflow with the blood just from the times we were killed. And > > the number of aeons is uncountable. During almost all of these lives > > we have deeply clung to the belief in self and control, so strongly > > has it been accumulated > > Now we - by conditions- are in the extraordinary position of hearing > > and considering Saddhamma. This is a rare opportunity that arises > > infrequently in samasara. Still, if accumulated wisdom is not > > sufficient then we misinterpret the Dhamma and try to find a self and > > control somewhere. If other parami such as patience have not been > > accumulated one will look for some fast way, a shortcut, rather than > > understanding the nature of whatever dhamma arises at this moment. > > Now is the time to see that there is truly no self. > > robert > > 7294 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 1:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accents I tired and could not get it to go. For Pali and Sanskrit, this would be soooo helpful. Is this a font file needed or a command? Thanks! And Metta to you... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 11:32 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] accents Q. Can I type alternate Latin characters, such as accents over vowels? A. To type an accent over a vowel, press Alt and E on your keyboard at the same time (nothing will appear on screen), then type the vowel. You can also type these other characters: ñ: Press Alt and N at the same time, then N by itself. ¿: Press Alt, Shift, and / at the same time. ü: Press Alt and U at the same time, and then U by itself. ç: Press Alt and C at the same time 7295 From: Robert Epstein Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 2:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob E > > Thanks for these thoughts and comments. It is a perplexing area. > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > Thank you, Jon. I know you are not claiming to understand this > > difficult > > formulation, but I wonder what your take is on how consciousness, which > > is still a > > conditioned phenomena [?] can itself grasp Nibbana, whose 'one intrinsic > > nature' > > is being 'totally transcendent to the conditioned world'. This seems to > > be on the > > face of it wholly self-contradictory and therefore impossible. > > Surprising, perhaps. But self-contradictory I don't see. The conditioned perceiving the unconditioned? It seems contradictory by definition. Can a flea perceive a supermarket? It can perceive the crack between two bricks. The important > question is not what the intrinsic nature of nibbana is, but whether it > has an intrinsic nature capable of being experienced by citta. And that brings into question the nature of the citta, as you discuss below. > Don't forget that citta can experience objects that are not of the present > life or plane of existence (jhana cittas, even bhavanga cittas which arise > for all of us). > > The citta that experiences nibana is a supramundane citta, ie a citta of a > plane other than this sensuous plane. > > > It would need an unconditioned, transcendent consciousness to grasp an > > object or > > state with a totally transcendent characteristic. Dear Jon, When you say that the citta that experiences nibbana is 'supramundane', this means to me that it is a consciousness transcendent to worldy conditions. In other words, would supernatural be an equivalent term? If the consciousness is beyond earthly conditions, it would certainly get me closer to understanding how it could apprehend Nibbana. Best, Robert 7296 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 5:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders, I've just been looking up some of the references you give here (some took a little searching for;-)) --- Anders Honoré wrote: > Thank you for joining in on the discussion. I think Kom and I could use some > fresh perspective. I think you and others who have joined in are doing fine... > > > Hmm, as I've said before, I am biased in my reading of the Sutta Pitaka, in > the sense that I also draw from Mahayana, but what I'm trying to say is not > new in Theravada either. Basically, I'm just trying to say that there's a > True Mind (to use a Mahayana term) as opposed to the conditioned Samasaric > mind of the kandhas and that mind *is* Nibbana, that mind is unconditioned. > You can call it self or not, but I would say that there is still something > there. While we cling to a 'self' we'cling to the idea of a true mind, a lurking nibbana or God as well....not to mention the idea of choice or free will. It's quite possible to read all the Tipitaka in Pali with the idea of a self. We can see from some translations (especially some of the earlier ones) that this is often done. > > There's a sutta which says: > "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is defiled by incoming defilements. > "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is free'd from incoming defilements." > > That seems to be a mind pretty much unconditioned conditioned factors, as it > retains its luminousity in spite of conditioned circumstances Anders, whenever the mind is referred to, I understand that cittas ( conditioned moments of consciousness) are being referred to and indeed the Buddha made it clear there are only 5 khandhas, not 5 khandhas and a mind. Nina wrote about these lines and quotes from 'Survey of Paramatha Dhammas' which can be found on Rob's website. We can see that mind is translated from citta. I hope you don't mind if I repeat it here: (N-Nina Van Gorkom) ********************************************************** > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi > upakkili.t.tha.m. N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by oncoming defilements. >ta.m assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuuta.m nappajaanaati. N:The ordinary person who has not learned (the Dhamma, not listened to it) does not understand it as it really is. > tasmaa assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa natthiiti vadaamiiti. N:Therefore I say that for the ordinary person who has not listened there is no mental development (literally. free: the ordinary person who has not listened to the Dhamma has not developed the mind.) > 1. 6. 2. > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi upakkilesehi > vippamutta.m. N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released from oncoming defilements. >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is. >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti. N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the mind. N.The upakilesas, defilements arising with the citta (different from the anusayas, latent tendencies who do not arise with the akusala citta but can condition akusala), are like visitors from outside. It seems disturbing, but we have to note: the ariyan knows the citta as it really is: yathaabutta. One has to know also akusala citta as it is, otherwise one cannot become an ariyan, this is stressed in this short sutta. N. The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using the word pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be clear in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-citta." Now I like to quote from Acharn's Survey of Paramattha dhammas where she explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that when one is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does not experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one experiences all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects give rise to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the function of keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast asleep and also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an echo of the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the citta. It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements arise. I quote: < The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no lovingkindness nor compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant.> The person who is enlightened, the ariyasaavako, has eradicated anusayas by the development of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path. It is pa~n~naa which knows realities as they are, yathaabhuuta, no other way. Anusayas are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment, and only the arahat is freed from all defilements, he has no more latent tendencies of defilements, no conditions for their arising. Nina. ************************************************************* back to Anders and Sarah! >(and this > pretty much accords with the Tathagatagarbha doctrine: That Nirvana is > always present in us, Regardless of it is realised or not). Not according to the Tipitaka as we understand it. I thought it was > pretty much settled with this quote: > > "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, does not > partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of > fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas (and so on through a list > of the various levels of godhood to) the allness of the All." (M 49) > > Which pretty much spells Nibbana, but Kom pointed out that the translation > as this being consciousness was dubious, although I get the impression that > this was primarily because Nibbana as consciousness like this is mentioned > very few places in the Pali Canon (correct me if I'm wrong here, Kom). B.Bodhi translates the passage as: 'the consciousness that makes no showing, And in becoming about to disbecome, Not claiming being with respect to all: that is not partaken of by the earthness of earth etc I think your comments are correct according to BB's notes. He adds, "MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized" '. Anders, I don't know any of the pali here (which probably wouldn't help anyway), but I fail to see why this description of nibbana has anything to do with the idea of Nivana being present in us..... > > But as I said, I'm not the first to say something like this. Quote Ajahn > Chah: I think I'll leave comments on his writings as I may misunderstand him. > A final passage: > > Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, the Tathagata dwells with > unrestricted awareness, Vahuna. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released > from form... feeling... perception... processes... consciousness... birth... > aging... death... stress*... defilement, he dwells with unrestricted > awareness. Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing > in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to > it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from > these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81) > > What he is saying here, is that when totally freed (unbound), even from > consciousness, there is still this this "unrestricted awareness" left. > Now i know why i've been slow to reply to you! OK just tracked it down. I just have the PTS translation of this with no footnotes or Pali. I find the 'unrestricted awareness' to be misleading above. Here it says (with my notes after S.): 'The Wayfarer dwells free, detached and released from physical body, feeling,perception, mental factors and consciousness ....from rebirth, decay and death ....from the passions, Bahuna, the Wayfarer is free, detached and released, and dwells with a mind whose barriers are broken down' I hope I have at least given an indication of why some of us say that reading the suttas is not quite as simple as it seems and how a little understanding of abhidhamma comes into play here. Anders, I really appreciate your keen interest and Tipitaka citations. I look forward to more. Sarah 7297 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 8:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear all, I had meant to give fuller references before posting, so let me add them now: --- > > There's a sutta which says: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is defiled by incoming defilements. AN I.51-52 > I like to quote from Acharn's Survey of Paramattha dhammas http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > > > > "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, Maj NIk, 49, The Invitation of a Brahma,24-26 > I think your comments are correct according to BB's notes. He adds, "MA note 513 > > > A final passage: > > > > Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, the Tathagata dwells with > > unrestricted awareness, Vahuna. Which ten? > > these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81) Ang Nik, bk of Tens, 81, Bahuna (Pali, Text V, 151-2) 7298 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Well, as I have say a short "hellow" I say "hellow to all of you!" and just want to say that I "also" have been lucky just like all of "you" to get a "human life in this very short period of a Buddha sasana" in this "infinite" sansara - specially, because using "this life" any person can limit his infinite sansara to a maxium of future seven lives only. But keeping in mind that you have to "let" the mango rippen... ~ may we all get wisdom, to "understand" nirvana Ranil >From: dhammastudygroup Moderator >Subject: Welcome to dhammastudygroup >Date: 9 Aug 2001 08:51:58 -0000 > > >Dear Dhamma Friend, > >Welcome to the group. > >We hope you will take part in and benefit from the exchange of views here. > >All new members are invited to consider posting a short ‘Hello’. Other >members would be interested to know something about you, your interest in >Buddhism and how you found your way here! > >Wishing you progress in the dhamma > >Sarah and Jonothan Abbott >(Moderators) > > >Please read the following guidelines and save a copy of this message for >future reference. > >POSTS > >1. We welcome any questions, answers, or comments relating to the Buddha’s >teachings (no matter how lighthearted). > >2. Please use an appropriate subject heading for messages and replies. >This makes it easier to follow different threads, or to browse the archives >later. > >3. For replies, delete any part of the original message that is not >directly relevant to your reply. This saves the reader from having to >scroll through large chunks of text, and saves archive space which may be >limited in future. > >4. Because of potential limits on storage space, please use hyperlinks >when referring to on-line texts, except for short passages. > >5. Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from >your own. Absolutely no flame messages or harsh language. > >6. The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how interesting >or useful they may seem): chain letters, virus alerts, ‘everybody in my >address book’ messages, circulars, petitions, urban legends, or any other >similar messages. Just questions, answers, or comments relating to the >Buddha’s teachings, please! > >7. Sorry, but attachments are not accepted on this list. > >8. Please respect copyright laws. > >9. Posts to the list are generally not moderated, but we reserve the right >to moderate posts of members who send inappropriate messages. > > >Contact us- >The moderators can be contacted off-list at Jon & Sarah172 > >For your information: >The Yahoo! Groups website on which this list is hosted allows you to select >the form in which you receive or read messages posted to the list. You can >choose from the following settings- > >1) Individual Emails – This is the default setting. Each message posted to >the list will be sent to your email inbox. > >2) Daily Digest – With this setting, you will receive a number of posts to >the list in a single email message to your inbox. Useful if you want to >reduce the number of incoming messages, or wish to scroll quickly through >the incoming messages. > >3) No Mail, Web Only – With this setting none of the messages posted to the >list will be sent to your inbox. You can browse messages by going to the >list’s home page at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > 7299 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 9:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup well ranil dont you think that u can get away that easily, according to the laws of this DSG mini-universe you will have to give more detailed introduction of urself. :o) welcome and regards gayan ----- Original Message ----- From: "ranil gunawardena" Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > Well, as I have say a short "hellow" I say "hellow to all of you!" and just > want to say that I "also" have been lucky just like all of "you" to get a > "human life in this very short period of a Buddha sasana" in this "infinite" > sansara - specially, because using "this life" any person can limit his > infinite sansara to a maxium of future seven lives only. But keeping in mind > that you have to "let" the mango rippen... > > ~ may we all get wisdom, to "understand" nirvana > Ranil > > 7300 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:11pm Subject: Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the > > realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly experienced, > > since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it also > > your understanding that until one's consciousness > > becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they are? > > > > kom > > I don't think that the five sense organs experience what anything actually *is*. > How could they? As far as I know, you would be in accordance with the teaching to say the five sense organs cannot experience anything. The 5 sense organs do not experience, only the consciousness and mental factors can experience. > We don't get an experience of an outer object without a mental > interpretation of impressions which are put together by the mind to form an image. When one of the 5 sense objects impinges on the sense organ, and there is a process of consciousness (the sense-door process) (A) rising to cognize the object, the process of consciousness is said to be experiencing the actual characteristics (sabhava) of the object. The mind-door process of consciousness that rises immediately afterward (B), interrupted only by some "life-continuity" consciousness, also experience the sabhava of the object. It is only some processes later (extremely short) (C) that the consciousness starts to make an interpretation of the sense object, such as "shapes", "persons", "Robert", etc. The abhidhamma teaching indicates that the consciousness and the mental factors (in your terminology, the mind) at (A) and (B) are cognizing the actual characteristics (sabhava) of the reality (perhaps without thorough penetration), and the consciousness at (C) is cognizing concept (pannatti) of that reality. (A) and (B) cognize the characteristics (sabhava) of actual realities, where as (C) cognizes the concept which has no sabhava. For us who may not have accumulated enough wisdom, it may appear that (A), (B), and (C) are cognizing the same thing, where as they are actually not. This is the brief explanation of how the mind can cognize both what is real (with sabhava) and what is unreal (without sabhava) and appear to the person that the dhamma with and without sabhava are ones and the same (while they are not). > However, it is possible to have moments of insight when we experience > exactly what is arising with clarity, and those would be exceptional moments when > there is a breakthrough in conditioned consciousness. What you said here would also be in accordance with the teaching. There are some moments of consciousness that experience the sabhava of the object, if rising with wisdom, that would penetrate the true characteristics of the object that it is experiencing. Hence, it is *possible* that a conditioned reality, in this case a consciousness conditioned by wisdom, to penetrate the true characteristic of the object it is cognizing. This is how the Buddha encouraged us to "know feeling in feeling", i.e., to penetrate the true characteristic of feeling. The same argument goes with how the supramundane (the conditioned consciousness that rises at the point of enlightenment) consciousness can penetrate the true characteristics (sabhava) of unconditioned reality (nibanna). > I believe these breaks in > conditioned consciousness to experience true insight are cumulative and gradually > lift the level of clarity in the person. This is also in accordance with the teaching. Wisdom is accumulative, just like how greed, anger, and delusion are also accumulative. This is why it is rare to have wisdom as we have accumulated greed, anger, and delusion constantly for aeons. When there is enough wisdom accumulated, then it is possible to have moments of supramundane consciousness that penetrates the sabhava of the unconditioned. > They would start as exceptional > experiences and as the person moved towards an enlightened state, they would > become more and more common. The person would gradually live in a much more > perceptive, insightful state, unclouded by false concepts and presumptions. Agreed... kom 7301 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Hi, Robert, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Are you saying that anyone in particular is a > Theosophist? Sorry for my carelessness in posting this to the list. No, I was not. > I am not. Kom points > out below that one of the definitions of an > Annihilationist [Nihilist] is one who > believes his 'self' ends at death. > > I was questioning what then *does* persist after > death, a valid question. Of course. > As for Joseph Campbell, THE MASKS OF GOD is > recognized as a classic in its field. > I think to call it a popular piece of junk is not > very objective, even if you > disagree with what he says about Buddhism or other > subjects. This certainly was harsh speech, for which I again apologize. > He is acknowledged > as one of the most brilliant minds in his field, and > his work is in mythology, so > he is not commenting on the practice of any given > tradition in the same way that > members of this group might. > > I don't think it can be judged on the same basis, or > has much to do with this > thread. > > However, even though you meant to post off-list to > those who 'agree' with you, you > seem to have some aversion to work through about > this, and your strong opinion > against mythologists, theosophists and others do not > seem to accord with the > injunction for 'dropping all views' that the Buddha > suggested. Yes, aversion is never a good thing. > I hope that we can discuss the subjects of how > Nibbana is experienced, by whom, > and what kind of self does or does not exist in > reality, openly and with respect. > so as not to generate the consequences of negativity > at a future date. No disrespect intended, Robert. Apologies again, all around. mike 7302 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation p.s. I meant also to say thanks for your very thoughtful, measured and courteous response. I'll remeber it as an example of 'right speech' in the future. mike 7304 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 10:48pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation - Robert E Dear Robert E, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What doesn't= > > > > > exist? > > > > > > Nibbana? > Kom, > I would ask you what you mean by 'exists'. I would say the kandhas exist > provisionally, in other words they are unstable and impermanent, constantly > shifting based on conditioned causes and having no actual identity, while Nibbana > alone is self-existent. > > Are you in accord with that idea, or would you say something different about it? > Robert, I think you are saying that each of the 5 kandhas exists conditionally, i.e., it exists because of conditions infinitesmally briefly and then falls away immediately, and nibbbana exists unconditionally. There can be no identity in the kandhas because as soon as you identify with one of the kandhas, it has fallen away (if self is identified in the kandhas, then self cannot sustain). To this idea, I am in agreement! Now, let me ask you more, does a person exist? For example, does Kom exist? When you think of Kom, what is the consciousness experiencing? Is it experiencing any of the 5 kandhas? Is it experiencing something that exists? kom 7305 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 9, 2001 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! Dear Kom, Thanks for taking a tremendous amount of very complex abhidhamma and expressing it in terms that even I can grasp. Any one of (especially) your steps A,B and C below could have taken pages of detailed explanation--I know because I've read those pages, often without much over-arching comprehension. By paraphrasing all the details, lists and terminology involved and expressing the main features in conventional terms, you have (in my opinion) created a very nice primer of abhidhamma in a single post. Saadhu! Thanks also, Robert E., for the insightful questions and comments prompting this response. mike --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > When one of the 5 sense objects impinges on the > sense organ, and there > is a process of consciousness (the sense-door > process) (A) rising to > cognize the object, the process of consciousness is > said to be experiencing > the actual characteristics (sabhava) of the object. > The mind-door process > of consciousness that rises immediately afterward > (B), interrupted only by > some "life-continuity" consciousness, also > experience the sabhava of the > object. It is only some processes later (extremely > short) (C) that the > consciousness starts to make an interpretation of > the sense object, such > as "shapes", "persons", "Robert", etc. > > The abhidhamma teaching indicates that the > consciousness and the > mental factors (in your terminology, the mind) at > (A) and (B) are > cognizing the actual characteristics (sabhava) of > the reality (perhaps > without thorough penetration), and the consciousness > at (C) is cognizing > concept (pannatti) of that reality. (A) and (B) > cognize the characteristics > (sabhava) of actual realities, where as (C) cognizes > the concept which has > no sabhava. For us who may not have accumulated > enough wisdom, it > may appear that (A), (B), and (C) are cognizing the > same thing, where as > they are actually not. > > This is the brief explanation of how the mind can > cognize both what is real > (with sabhava) and what is unreal (without sabhava) > and appear to the > person that the dhamma with and without sabhava are > ones and the same > (while they are not). > > > However, it is possible to have moments of insight > when we experience > > exactly what is arising with clarity, and those > would be exceptional > moments when > > there is a breakthrough in conditioned > consciousness. > > What you said here would also be in accordance with > the teaching. There > are some moments of consciousness that experience > the sabhava of the > object, if rising with wisdom, that would penetrate > the true characteristics > of the object that it is experiencing. Hence, it is > *possible* that a > conditioned reality, in this case a consciousness > conditioned by wisdom, to > penetrate the true characteristic of the object it > is cognizing. This is how > the Buddha encouraged us to "know feeling in > feeling", i.e., to penetrate > the true characteristic of feeling. > > The same argument goes with how the supramundane > (the conditioned > consciousness that rises at the point of > enlightenment) consciousness can > penetrate the true characteristics (sabhava) of > unconditioned reality > (nibanna). > > > I believe these breaks in > > conditioned consciousness to experience true > insight are cumulative and > gradually > > lift the level of clarity in the person. > > This is also in accordance with the teaching. > Wisdom is accumulative, just > like how greed, anger, and delusion are also > accumulative. This is why it > is rare to have wisdom as we have accumulated greed, > anger, and > delusion constantly for aeons. When there is > enough wisdom > accumulated, then it is possible to have moments of > supramundane > consciousness that penetrates the sabhava of the > unconditioned. > > > They would start as exceptional > > experiences and as the person moved towards an > enlightened state, > they would > > become more and more common. The person would > gradually live in a > much more > > perceptive, insightful state, unclouded by false > concepts and > presumptions. > > Agreed... > > kom 7306 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 0:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/8/01 10:25:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Dear Howard, > Great to hear of your developing appreciation of Abhidhamma . I know > I am biased but I feel this is going together with increasing wisdom. > Science cannot investigate nama in the way they are able to > investigate rupa. It is something each must see for himself. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't completely agree with this. Science can *indirectly* investigate mind in various ways, using technical equpiment and observation "from the outside", as it were. Certainly that is only an indirect and at-a-distance approach, but the results are likely to give either some sort of confirmation or the opposite of the Abhidhammic theory. It seems likely to me that at a time that a "subject" reports having a subjective experience (such as seeing a red patch), the read-out of equipment hooked up to him/her would show a sequence of changing states, some of which could be correlated with various internal mental states, including the discernment via one or more sensory gateways, and, in this way,it could be observed whether or not more than one object can be discerned at the same time. ----------------------------------------------------------- > I like the definition in the International Dictionary of > Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; > it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it > evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it." (cited in > Crick 1994, vii). > Perhaps the best scientist in cognitive science is Francisco Varela - > but then he is a devout Buddhist and constantly refers to Buddhist > texts. > robert > > > Howard wrote: > > Hi, all - > > > > I've been reading over and mulling over material on > Abhidhamma - with > > steadily increasing appreciation, BTW. There is one very > fundamental > > principle of Abhidhamma which is kind of a "backbone" for it, > namely that > > there is only one object of discernment, one arammana, at a time. I > was > > curious whether anyone on the list knows the findings of cognitive > science or > > neurophysiology with regard to this issue? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, > a bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering > lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > > > > > > > > > > > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7307 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:21am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science --Dear Howard, There have been experiments that demonstrate , for example, that even before a subject gained a conceptual idea about some stimulus that they already reacted in subtle ways(they reacted even before they 'knew' the stimulus existed). This certainly supports the Abhidhamma. We know that physics has gained some idea of the extraordinary rapidity of change in matter. But still (as far as I can tell)not as fast as the actaul happenings. According to the Abhidhamma mind states are arising and falling away 17 times faster than rupa. So whatever results they are seeing cannot equate with the actual moments . Whatever results they do get (if accurate) can only accord with fairly major effects of mindstates. A far inferior tool to panna(developed wisdom) robert S- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 8/8/01 10:25:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Robert writes: > > > > Dear Howard, > > Great to hear of your developing appreciation of Abhidhamma . I know > > I am biased but I feel this is going together with increasing wisdom. > > Science cannot investigate nama in the way they are able to > > investigate rupa. It is something each must see for himself. > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't completely agree with this. Science can *indirectly* > investigate mind in various ways, using technical equpiment and observation > "from the outside", as it were. Certainly that is only an indirect and > at-a-distance approach, but the results are likely to give either some sort > of confirmation or the opposite of the Abhidhammic theory. It seems likely to > me that at a time that a "subject" reports having a subjective experience > (such as seeing a red patch), the read-out of equipment hooked up to him/her > would show a sequence of changing states, some of which could be correlated > with various internal mental states, including the discernment via one or > more sensory gateways, and, in this way,it could be observed whether or not > more than one object can be discerned at the same time. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > I like the definition in the International Dictionary of > > Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; > > it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it > > evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it." (cited in > > Crick 1994, vii). > > Perhaps the best scientist in cognitive science is Francisco Varela - > > but then he is a devout Buddhist and constantly refers to Buddhist > > texts. > > robert > > > > > 7308 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 7:36am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science --- <> wrote: > --Dear howard, just wanted to add on this thread that I think it is well worth discussing any issues to do with science and Buddhism. I think scientism is the dominant ideology in the world, and so many/most people are influenced by it to a degree. Joe cummings has written a little about it and we also have Suan on this list who is interested in science and Buddhism. My research professionally is related to science and worldview. best wishes robert 7309 From: Larry Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:19am Subject: Re: accents Sorry about that. This is a web tv thing I sent to myself for storage. I have no idea how it got here. Larry 7310 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/9/01 6:25:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > --Dear Howard, > There have been experiments that demonstrate , for example, that even > before a subject gained a conceptual idea about some stimulus that > they already reacted in subtle ways(they reacted even before > they 'knew' the stimulus existed). This certainly supports the > Abhidhamma. > We know that physics has gained some idea of the extraordinary > rapidity of change in matter. But still (as far as I can tell)not as > fast as the actaul happenings. > According to the Abhidhamma mind states are arising and falling away > 17 times faster than rupa. So whatever results they are seeing cannot > equate with the actual moments . Whatever results they do get (if > accurate) can only accord with fairly major effects of mindstates. A > far inferior tool to panna(developed wisdom) > robert > ============================== You mention the following: "According to the Abhidhamma mind states are arising and falling away 17 times faster than rupa." This is something that I've thought about a bit, and I find somewhat perplexing. What I find perplexing is not the possibility that the flow of cittas moves at a greater rate than the corresponding flow of discerned rupas, but, rather how it is possible that that should come to be "known"! Any knowing, as I understand Abhidhamma to assert, occurs momentarily, withing a citta. But the flow of cittas is, by definition, something going beyond any individual citta. In what mind moment can the flow be observed, measured, and compared with the flow of rupas? If all knowing is a momentary affair, I see a problem here. Can you help my understanding with this? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7311 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/9/01 7:38:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > > --Dear howard, > just wanted to add on this thread that I think it is well worth > discussing any issues to do with science and Buddhism. I think > scientism is the dominant ideology in the world, and so many/most > people are influenced by it to a degree. Joe cummings has written a > little about it and we also have Suan on this list who is interested > in science and Buddhism. My research professionally is related to > science and worldview. > ========================== I agree that such issues are worthy of discussion, though I don't consider myself particularly competent in such an area, my knowledge of physics, biology, and chemistry being quite limited. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7312 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:51am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science --- Howard wrote: > > > > ============================== > You mention the following: "According to the Abhidhamma mind states > are arising and falling away 17 times faster than rupa." This is something > that I've thought about a bit, and I find somewhat perplexing. What I find > perplexing is not the possibility that the flow of cittas moves at a greater > rate than the corresponding flow of discerned rupas, but, rather how it is > possible that that should come to be "known"! Any knowing, as I understand > Abhidhamma to assert, occurs momentarily, withing a citta. But the flow of > cittas is, by definition, something going beyond any individual citta. In > what mind moment can the flow be observed, measured, and compared with the > flow of rupas? If all knowing is a momentary affair, I see a problem here. > Can you help my understanding with this? > > With metta, > Howard ____________ Dear Howard, I think we have an idea of what panna knows and how it knows. Like the recent discussion about the fact that panna knows the immediately preceeding mind processes: This worries us if we assume that citta can only know itself at the exact moment it arises. In fact as we discussed a moment of citta with lobha cannot understand itself- but following processes with panna can understand the lobha. It is all happening fantastically fast and thus it is still correct to talk about knowing the present moment. Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after these. The moments of javanna citta with panna arise in a series of seven cittas that are conditioned by each other. There is an accumualation of understanding during this time (see the Patthana) and also there are further conditions by upanissaya paccaya for more insight in future processes. If we think of panna as a sort of mind atom that knows only some cittas (say) then we limit the nature and function of panna. Panna has the function of understanding and is a dhamma that has no limits. It can even grow to the degree of understanding all dhammas perfectly - such as the panna of a sammasamBuddha. Because it is not a predominant dhamma (except in the truly wise - the ariya puggala) we tend to have conceptions (some right some wrong) about its nature. Panna, of a level, is present even now when we reflect correctly about the deeper aspects of Dhamma; and is present, at another level, when there is genuine direct insight into the characteristic of a dhamma: but it is not yet a power (bala) and so its characteristic may be hard to discern. I don't know if this helps. best wishes robert 7313 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation - Robert E --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert E, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > tathagatha doesn't exist at the first place? What exists? What > doesn't= > > > > > > > exist? > > > > > > > > Nibbana? > > > Kom, > > I would ask you what you mean by 'exists'. I would say the kandhas > exist > > provisionally, in other words they are unstable and impermanent, > constantly > > shifting based on conditioned causes and having no actual identity, > while Nibbana > > alone is self-existent. > > > > Are you in accord with that idea, or would you say something different > about it? > > > > Robert, I think you are saying that each of the 5 kandhas exists > conditionally, i.e., it exists because of conditions infinitesmally briefly and > then falls away immediately, and nibbbana exists unconditionally. There > can be no identity in the kandhas because as soon as you identify with one > of the kandhas, it has fallen away (if self is identified in the kandhas, then > self cannot sustain). To this idea, I am in agreement! > > Now, let me ask you more, does a person exist? For example, does Kom > exist? When you think of Kom, what is the consciousness experiencing? > Is it experiencing any of the 5 kandhas? Is it experiencing something that > exists? > > kom I would say that what we think of as Kom or Robert E. does not exist as an actual 'thing'. Instead it is an accumulated impression of various characteristics, actions, etc. You exist for me as certain impressions that I have of you. Put together, they form a mind-image which I call "Kom". The fact that I experience you through the internet or by having coffee with you every day for 20 years is probably inconsequential to the result. Except in the case of knowing you for a long time, I would have an even stronger presumption that I knew who and what *you* were. The way I exist for myself is also as a kind of impression, but I think it's a little more complex, because the familiar feeling I associate with my idea of self constantly accompanies all of my thoughts, feelings, etc. It is like a thought-feeling addition of intimate existence that I attach to every momentary experience. So I would say that "Robert E." exists as a familiar feeling and presumption in the mind and emotions. Do I really exist? When I've tried to look into the 'non-existence of self' personally, in the past I was just confused. But lately when I've tried to investigate this, there has been more of a conviction that there is no "I" as a kind of internal entity, but that "Robert E." is a habitual convention of thought, feeling and belief. If I accept the fact that Robert E. does not really exist as such, there is a feeling of loneliness that arises. It is as if this system, this bodymind, is very sad without the thought of an ego inhabiting it. When it cognizes its own existence as nothing but a series of arisings with no inhabitant to experience them, there is a feeling of sadness, almost of despair. Well, these feelings of loneliness and despair at not 'being anybody' are enough to drive most people back to enduring the sufferings of karmas, the result of all the things they do in the service of this familiar sense of self, to protect and promote it, and attach and avert in relation to the things it likes or dislikes. It takes some tolerance of these feelings to be able to stay with the idea of 'emptiness of self or entity' and simply observe what really takes place. And I have never found an actual "Robert E." living anywhere in this pyscho-biological system. But of course that familiar sense of being somebody constantly rearises as soon as I relax my vigilance. Best Regards, Robert E., or.....whomever........ 7314 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 0:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi, Robert, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Are you saying that anyone in particular is a > > Theosophist? > > Sorry for my carelessness in posting this to the list. > No, I was not. > > > I am not. Kom points > > out below that one of the definitions of an > > Annihilationist [Nihilist] is one who > > believes his 'self' ends at death. > > > > I was questioning what then *does* persist after > > death, a valid question. > > Of course. > > > As for Joseph Campbell, THE MASKS OF GOD is > > recognized as a classic in its field. > > I think to call it a popular piece of junk is not > > very objective, even if you > > disagree with what he says about Buddhism or other > > subjects. > > This certainly was harsh speech, for which I again > apologize. > > > He is acknowledged > > as one of the most brilliant minds in his field, and > > his work is in mythology, so > > he is not commenting on the practice of any given > > tradition in the same way that > > members of this group might. > > > > I don't think it can be judged on the same basis, or > > has much to do with this > > thread. > > > > However, even though you meant to post off-list to > > those who 'agree' with you, you > > seem to have some aversion to work through about > > this, and your strong opinion > > against mythologists, theosophists and others do not > > seem to accord with the > > injunction for 'dropping all views' that the Buddha > > suggested. > > Yes, aversion is never a good thing. > > > I hope that we can discuss the subjects of how > > Nibbana is experienced, by whom, > > and what kind of self does or does not exist in > > reality, openly and with respect. > > so as not to generate the consequences of negativity > > at a future date. > > No disrespect intended, Robert. Apologies again, all > around. > > mike Thanks for your response, Mike. I feel like I sometimes step off a limb on this list, because I am admittedly using my own logic and my knowledge of Buddhism, which has been consistent, but not thorough in the Pali Canon. I am a little more familiar with works and concepts of Ch'an Buddhism, but my interest in Theravada is sincere. I know that at times people will have to tell me that at least as far as the Pali Canon and the Tripitaka are concerned, that I am way off, or not understanding the Buddha's intent. And I am prepared for that. It's part of my learning process. At the same time, I can sometimes have a valid view and contribute something. I have been reading Thich Nath Hanh's translation of the SUTRA ON COMPLETE AWARENESS OF THE BREATH, and I am amazed at its simplicity and completeness. It spells out the Buddha's path in a way that anyone with an open mind can understand. The Theravadan Canon has this kind of clarity and structure to offer, and someone like myself, who has struggled with Ch'an and Zen methodology for a long time, can really appreciate the kind of grounding and surety of path that this can give me. We are all working with our tendencies and accumulations, in whatever form, and the fact that you accidentally sent your note to this group instead of as a private message should not be a cause for alarm or embarrassment. It was obviously meant to be here, and it opened up issues and topics that might not have been looked at otherwise. I consider every event in a group like this to be a good one, and I'm happy to rise to the occasion, and chew on what you have contributed. Best, Robert E. ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7315 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 0:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Sanna Is Okay With Imageless Nibbana: Full Message Re: Nibbana Annihilation? ! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Robert E, > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > > > Is it also your understanding that none of the characteristics of the > > > realities that are arising now (the 5 kandhas) can be truly > experienced, > > > since the consciousness that is experiecing them is conditioned? Is it > also > > > your understanding that until one's consciousness > > > becomes "unconditioned", one cannot experience any realities as they > are? > > > > > > kom > > > > I don't think that the five sense organs experience what anything > actually *is*. > > How could they? > > As far as I know, you would be in accordance with the teaching to say the > five sense organs cannot experience anything. The 5 sense organs do not > experience, only the consciousness and mental factors can experience. > > > We don't get an experience of an outer object without a mental > > interpretation of impressions which are put together by the mind to form > an image. > > When one of the 5 sense objects impinges on the sense organ, and there > is a process of consciousness (the sense-door process) (A) rising to > cognize the object, the process of consciousness is said to be experiencing > the actual characteristics (sabhava) of the object. The mind-door process > of consciousness that rises immediately afterward (B), interrupted only by > some "life-continuity" consciousness, also experience the sabhava of the > object. It is only some processes later (extremely short) (C) that the > consciousness starts to make an interpretation of the sense object, such > as "shapes", "persons", "Robert", etc. > > The abhidhamma teaching indicates that the consciousness and the > mental factors (in your terminology, the mind) at (A) and (B) are > cognizing the actual characteristics (sabhava) of the reality (perhaps > without thorough penetration), and the consciousness at (C) is cognizing > concept (pannatti) of that reality. (A) and (B) cognize the characteristics > (sabhava) of actual realities, where as (C) cognizes the concept which has > no sabhava. For us who may not have accumulated enough wisdom, it > may appear that (A), (B), and (C) are cognizing the same thing, where as > they are actually not. > > This is the brief explanation of how the mind can cognize both what is real > (with sabhava) and what is unreal (without sabhava) and appear to the > person that the dhamma with and without sabhava are ones and the same > (while they are not). Wonderful explanation. Very helpful. Thanks for your profoundly simple way of speaking. The idea that the consciousness and mental factors can cognize the true characteristics of the object, yet *not necessarily penetrate deeply* as you put it, is particularly interesting. This helps me to understand how the advanced cittas could cognize the true characteristics of Nibbana, but *not penetrate them deeply* as one would *in* Nibbana, if I am hearing you correctly. I think that what we are struggling with here [or maybe it's just me who's struggling!] is my finickiness about the ideaof 'apprehension' or really experiencing something as it is. I am taking this rather literally, as I expect the categories and levels laid out in the Suttas are meant to be precise. I can accept the idea that the higher consciousness could 'understand' the true characteristics of Nibbana, to the extent one understands them without having realized Nibbana. I think you would agree that there must be some measure of understanding that is reserved for the experience of Nibbana itself, and that cannot be accessible to any prior state, however highly developed. So the question is in what way and to what extent Nibbana is apprehended prior to being realized. The danger is that someone [probably a lot more developed than me!] will think they 'know' Nibbana prior to realizing it. Another danger is in turning Nibbana into an object of mind, thus blocking its realization. Are either of these dangers mentioned in the Suttas? Not having gone through the scriptures myself, I would love to know if there is also a passage or passages that speaks about the *way* in which Nibbana is apprehended in the various higher states of development prior to realization. This is just to have clarity of the path, but I know that to really answer these questions I need to go to the trouble of getting there myself! Then I can really worry about what is and isn't apprehended in a 'higher state'. Thanks again, Robert E. P.S. I have deleted the comments following this in which we are pretty much in accord, but I enjoyed and appreciate them. ----------------------------- ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7316 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Anders [and all listening], The only difference I can discern between Parinibbana and mere cessation of being, according to those taking the 'other side' of the argument from you, is that mere cessation does not end karmas or prevent rebirth into a realm of suffering. Parinibbana ends suffering and the cycle of birth and death. It does not necessitate the prior existence of the Tathagata as an actual personage beyond the kandhas. It would be Annihilationist to think that the Tathagata existed and ceases to be with the onset of Parinibbana. But is it Nihilistic to say that the Tathagata never existed as an entity in the first place, and that when the kandhas dissolve having no more tendency to rebirth in his case, they merely do not arise again? I take your side in the argument, thinking that there is an existent reality to awareness or Nibbana that is not associated with the kandhas. But I also realize that this may be falling into mysticism and that it may be falling into objectifying consciousness or awareness into an entity, just not a physical one. Whichever way you assert that Awareness or Nibbana exists after death, or that Awareness or Nibbana does not exist after death, you fall into error. Idealistic mysticism or Nihilism seem to be the only available choices in conceptual thinking about this matter. It shows the amazing wisdom of the Buddha in refusing to assert or deny these alternatives. So how is the problem solved? Is it necessary to assert the existence of a self, Nibbana or consciousness? Is it necessasry to deny the existence of a self, Nibbana or consciousness? What's the alternative to these alternatives? What is Right View in this situation? Robert ================================= --- Anders Honoré wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > > --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > > > Can you tell me what the point of the whole deal is then? Why is there > even > > > Nibbana? The Buddha said that because there is Nibbana, an escape from > > > Samsara can be discerned, but obviosuly that is not the case since > Nibbana > > > is not even experienced after Parinibbana. There's just cessation. > > > > I've been following your discussion with Kom and I think this is a very > valid > > question! > > Thank you for joining in on the discussion. I think Kom and I could use some > fresh perspective. > > > If we're honest with ourselves, are we really interested in giving up > > attachment now? Very seldom (except in theory again!). This is why it's a > long > > and gradual path and why now we would rather have an idea of nibbana as > > 'eternal bliss' than as cessation of kilesa and parinibbana as cessation > of the > > khandhas (aggregates of existence). > > As I see it, Parinibbana is very much the cessation of the kandhas. But > don't you think there's a reason that the death of an Arahant is called > Parinibbana, if not to pass into Nibbana (or become Nibbana, whatever)? > > > > Actually, come to think of it, there's a sutta where Sariputta ask a > > > student: "Do you construe the Tathagata as being in the kandhas?", to > which > > > he truthfully answers 'no'. How does that accord with this theory (could > > > find the source if you want to)? > > > > Thanks, you provided the source in another post. In reality it is only > (and has > > ever only been) the khandhas that exist - no Tathagata, no Anders or any > other > > being in them. I think Kom has explained this. This is why we need some > > understanding of abhidhamma or of different realities in order to read the > > suttas with right understanding of the meaning. > > Hmm, as I've said before, I am biased in my reading of the Sutta Pitaka, in > the sense that I also draw from Mahayana, but what I'm trying to say is not > new in Theravada either. Basically, I'm just trying to say that there's a > True Mind (to use a Mahayana term) as opposed to the conditioned Samasaric > mind of the kandhas and that mind *is* Nibbana, that mind is unconditioned. > You can call it self or not, but I would say that there is still something > there. > > There's a sutta which says: > "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is defiled by incoming defilements. > "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is free'd from incoming defilements." > > That seems to be a mind pretty much unconditioned conditioned factors, as it > retains its luminousity in spite of conditioned circumstances (and this > pretty much accords with the Tathagatagarbha doctrine: That Nirvana is > always present in us, Regardless of it is realised or not). I thought it was > pretty much settled with this quote: > > "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around, does not > partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of > fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas (and so on through a list > of the various levels of godhood to) the allness of the All." (M 49) > > Which pretty much spells Nibbana, but Kom pointed out that the translation > as this being consciousness was dubious, although I get the impression that > this was primarily because Nibbana as consciousness like this is mentioned > very few places in the Pali Canon (correct me if I'm wrong here, Kom). > > But as I said, I'm not the first to say something like this. Quote Ajahn > Chah: > > "But really this mind of ours is already unmoving and peaceful... really > peaceful! Just like a leaf which is still as long as no wind blows. If a > wind comes up the leaf flutters. The fluttering is due to the wind -- the > "fluttering" is due to those sense impressions; the mind follows them. If it > doesn't follow them, it doesn't "flutter." If we know fully the true nature > of sense impressions we will be unmoved. > > Our practice is simply to see the Original Mind. So we must train the mind > to know those sense impressions, and not get lost in them. To make it > peaceful. Just this is the aim of all this difficult practice we put > ourselves through. " > ........................... > "This Nature is not born, it does not age nor sicken. This Nature does not > die. This Nature is neither happy nor sad, neither big nor small, heavy nor > light; neither short nor long, black nor white. There's nothing you can > compare it to. No convention can reach it. This is why we say Nirvana has no > colour. All colors are merely conventions. The state which is beyond the > world is beyond the reach of worldly conventions." > > His own teacher Ajahn Mun makes an even clearer statement in his "Ballad of > Liberation from the Kandhas": > > Once we see through inconstancy, > the mind-source stops creating issues. > All that remains is the primal mind, > true & unchanging. > Knowing the mind-source > brings release from all worry & error. > If you go out to the mind-ends, > you're immediately wrong. > > A final passage: > > Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, the Tathagata dwells with > unrestricted awareness, Vahuna. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released > from form... feeling... perception... processes... consciousness... birth... > aging... death... stress*... defilement, he dwells with unrestricted > awareness. Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing > in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to > it, in the same way the Tathagata -- freed, dissociated, & released from > these ten things -- dwells with unrestricted awareness. (A X.81) > > What he is saying here, is that when totally freed (unbound), even from > consciousness, there is still this this "unrestricted awareness" left. > > > Anders, I'm sending this off in my usual hurry. I haven't got your other > post > > with the sutta extracts in front of me, but am happy to discuss these in > detail > > if Kom hasn't clarified the points to your satisfaction (not that I'm > likely to > > do any better!) > > Haha, go ahead and give it your best shot! > > > Best wishes and my usual appreciation for your study and sincere interest > in > > the dhamma. > > Thank you. > > > p.s In addition to the translations Jon mentioned, we also enjoy using > > B.Bodhi's translation of Maj Nik (1 vol) w/comm. notes (also Wisdom). > > Personally, I much prefer these to the PTS ones and really appreciate the > notes. > > Yes, I wish I had them myself. But feel free to supplement with them. > > ===== Robert Epstein, Program Director / Acting Instructor THE COMPLETE MEISNER-BASED ACTOR'S TRAINING in Wash., D.C. homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/epsteinrob1/ commentary: http://www.scene4.com/commentary/commentary.html profile: http://www.aviar.com/snsmembers/Robert_Epstein/robert_epstein.html "What you learn to really do becomes real" "Great actors create actions that are as rich as text" 7317 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana Forgive my ignorance, but what sutras would one specifically read to get the instructions outlined in this talk. What is the basic collection necessary for this. Or is it the whole Canon.................... Best, Robert E. --- Anders Honoré wrote: > SATIPATTHANA > THE FOURFOLD FOCUS OF MINDFULNESS > By Ajahn Brahmavamso > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > More has been said about the practice of Satipatthana than about any other > meditation practice by Buddhist teachers of today... except by this monk! So > in this Dhamma article I will keep up with the trend by presenting some > practical observations on this most misunderstood of Lord Buddha's > Teachings. > > Those of you who have been "sitting around" Buddhist Centres for a while > have probably heard some teachers claim that the fourfold "Focus of > Mindfulness" (my translation of "Satipatthana") is the "one and only way" to > the goal of full Enlightenment! Although this is an impressive sales pitch > for the teaching, it is neither a true translation of the original text nor > consistent with what the Lord Buddha said elsewhere. The very phrase > ("Ekayana Magga") which is mistranslated as "one and only way" occurs again > in the l2th Sutta (discourse) of the Majjhima collection where it > unmistakably means a "path with only one possible destination". Many > different paths can share a common destination. In fact, the "one and only > path" is the Lord Buddha's description, not of Satipatthana, but of the > Noble Eightfold Path: > > "Of all Ways, the Noble Eightfold Path is the best. > This is the only way, there is none other for the purity of insight" > Dhammapada verses 273 and 274 (abridged) > > Thus, the "only way" to Enlightenment, as all Buddhists should know anyway, > is the Noble Eightfold Path. The fourfold Focus of Mindfulness constitutes > only a part of this Path, the 7th factor. Jhanas are the 8th factor and > there is also Right View, Right Intention, Right Effort and the three > factors of Right Virtue. Each of these eight factors are necessary to > achieve the goal of full Enlightenment. lf any were redundant, then the Lord > Buddha would have taught a 7-fold path, or a 6-fold path etc. So, in your > practice of Buddhism, please keep in mind that all eight factors of the > noble Eightfold Path should be cultivated as the "one and only way". > Now the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness method as taught by the Lord Buddha, > is a very advanced practice. So advanced that the Lord Buddha said that if > anyone should develop them in the way He described for only seven days, then > they would achieve full Enlightenment or the state of non-returner. Many > meditators reading this may have gone on such a retreat for nine days or > even more and not yet fulfilled this most lofty of the Lord Buddha's > promises. Why not? Because, I suggest, you were not following the Lord > Buddha's instructions. > > If you want to practise the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness in the way that > the Lord Buddha said leads so rapidly to Enlightenment, then certain things > are required before you begin. The essential preparations are in short, full > cultivation of the other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. Or, as > the Lord Budda said in the Anguttara collection ('Nines', Suttas 63 and 64), > one should maintain the five Precepts (the longer the better), abandon the > five Hindrances and then practise Satipatthana. > > These vital prerequisites are actually stated by the Lord Buddha in His two > discourses on the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness, as "Vineyya Loke > Abhijjha-Domanassam" (please forgive me quoting Pali. It is the only way I > can make this important point). This phrase is usually translated as "having > put away covetousness and grief for the world", or something similar. Such > translations mean so little to meditators that they ignore this instruction > altogether, and thereby miss the bus! In the time of the Lord Buddha, the > monks, nuns and lay disciples would have understood the phrase to mean > "after having abandoned the five Hindrances"! The authoritative commentaries > to the two Satipatthana Suttas taught by the Lord Buddha both clearly state > that "Abhijjha-Domanassam" (sorry for the Pali again!) refer precisely to > the five Hindrances. Elsewhere in the recorded Teachings of the Lord Buddha, > "Abhijjha" is a synonym for the first Hindrance, "Domanassam" is a synonym > for the second Hindrance, and together they stand, in Pali idiom, as an > abbreviation for all five. This then means that the five Hindrances must be > abandoned first before beginning any of the Focus of Mindfulness practices. > It is, in my not-so-humble opinion, precisely because meditators attempt to > practise the Satipatthana method with some of the Hindrances still remaining > that they achieve no great or lasting result. > > It is the function of Jhana practice, the ultimate factor of the Noble > Eightfold Path, to abandon all of the five Hindrances long enough to gain > BIG Insight. For example, in the 68th Sutta of the Majjhima collection > ("Nalakapanna"), the Lord Buddha stated that for the meditator who does not > attain to Jhana, the five Hindrances together with discontent and weariness > invade the mind and remain. Only when one does attain to Jhana do the five > Hindrances together with discontent and weariness not invade one's mind and > remain the way the Lord Buddha said it is. > > Any meditator who has experienced the powerful Jhanas would know through > that experience, and what happens after, what a mind without any Hindrances > is truly like. The meditator who hasn't known Jhanas does not realise the > many subtle forms Hindrances can take. They may think that the hindrances > are abandoned but, the truth is, they just don't see them and so do not get > great results in their meditation. This is why Samatha practice which > cultivates Jhana is part of the Satipatthana teaching and why it is > misinformation to call Satipatthana "pure Vipassana". Even my teacher, Ajahn > Chah, said over and over again that Samatha and Vipassana, "calm and > insight", go together and are inseparable as the two faces of a coin. > > Having patiently completed the necessary preparations, the meditator > sustains their mindfulness on one of the four focuses: their own body, the > pleasure and pain associated with each sense, the mind consciousness and, > fourthly, the objects of mind. When the Hindrances are gone and one can > sustain one's powerful and penetrating attention on these four objects, only > then is it possible to realise that deep in our psyche, far deeper than the > veil of intelligent thinking, we have been assuming a Self. We have been > assuming that this body is "me" or "mine", that pleasure or pain has > something to do with me, that the mind which looks on is our Soul or > something close, and that the objects of mind such as thought or volition > (the 'chooser') is a Self, me, or mine. In short, the purpose of the > fourfold Focus of Mindfulness is to instruct one what to do when one has > emerged from a Jhana, to uncover the deeply disguised delusion of a Soul and > then see what the Lord Buddha saw, the Truth of Anatta. > > This is not an easy thing to do, but it can be done, and it can take only > seven days. That is if one follows the Lord Buddha's instructions, follows > them and takes no short cuts. > > Ajahn Brahm > (From: Newsletter, July-October 1997, > Buddhist Society of Western Australia, Perth, Australia) > > 7318 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 1:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Epstein" Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > Dear Anders [and all listening], > Right View in this situation? > > Robert Practice. Practice and investigate the Turning of the Wheel x 12 and the 40 trainings the Buddha left. Aristotelian logic cannot be applied here. If there is such a thing as a "glimpse" or "taste", then it is experiential and words render only crude approximations. The map, the address is not the place. Conventional. Absolute Dhamma truth is not found in a conundrum or words, tautologies, or paradigm testing. I think the question is less about the problem of "Tathagatology". ;-) I am not an expert but the insight here is without much left to express in words... there is the Path but no walker on it. (Vis. Mag.) Metta, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo 7319 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 2:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Howard Just a quick comment on your main thread here. Is there any more reason why we should take comfort from an apparent 'confirmation' of the teachings in the findings of cognitive science, than we should be discouraged by an apparent contradiction arising from those findings? Put another way, can the findings of cognitive science really give any indication either way about any crucial aspect of the teachings? --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > You mention the following: "According to the Abhidhamma mind > states > are arising and falling away 17 times faster than rupa." This is > something > that I've thought about a bit, and I find somewhat perplexing. What I > find > perplexing is not the possibility that the flow of cittas moves at a > greater > rate than the corresponding flow of discerned rupas, but, rather how it > is > possible that that should come to be "known"! Any knowing, as I > understand > Abhidhamma to assert, occurs momentarily, withing a citta. But the flow > of > cittas is, by definition, something going beyond any individual citta. > In > what mind moment can the flow be observed, measured, and compared with > the > flow of rupas? If all knowing is a momentary affair, I see a problem > here. > Can you help my understanding with this? I suppose a number of moments of cittas that each "know" another citta would then allow something to be known about the flow of those other cittas. (Isn't that in fact how we observe movement anyway?) Jon 7320 From: Joshua Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 2:59pm Subject: Re: Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, but what sutras would one specifically read to get the > instructions outlined in this talk. > > What is the basic collection necessary for this. > > Or is it the whole Canon.................... > > > Best, > Robert E. > Ok, aside from the suttas dealing only with Satipatthana, I would say (roughly) Anguttara II.29 Anguttara IX.63-64 (he mentions) Majjhima 68 (he mentions) Majjhima 107 The last one outlines step by step exactly how a monk should train himself in a sequential manner. Hope that helps. 7321 From: Joshua Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:17pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Anders [and all listening], > The only difference I can discern between Parinibbana and mere cessation of being, > according to those taking the 'other side' of the argument from you, is that mere > cessation does not end karmas or prevent rebirth into a realm of suffering. > Parinibbana ends suffering and the cycle of birth and death. It does not > necessitate the prior existence of the Tathagata as an actual personage beyond the > kandhas. > > It would be Annihilationist to think that the Tathagata existed and ceases to be > with the onset of Parinibbana. But is it Nihilistic to say that the Tathagata > never existed as an entity in the first place, and that when the kandhas dissolve > having no more tendency to rebirth in his case, they merely do not arise again? > > I take your side in the argument, thinking that there is an existent reality to > awareness or Nibbana that is not associated with the kandhas. But I also realize > that this may be falling into mysticism and that it may be falling into > objectifying consciousness or awareness into an entity, just not a physical one. > > Whichever way you assert that Awareness or Nibbana exists after death, or that > Awareness or Nibbana does not exist after death, you fall into error. Idealistic > mysticism or Nihilism seem to be the only available choices in conceptual thinking > about this matter. It shows the amazing wisdom of the Buddha in refusing to > assert or deny these alternatives. > > So how is the problem solved? Is it necessary to assert the existence of a self, > Nibbana or consciousness? Is it necessasry to deny the existence of a self, > Nibbana or consciousness? What's the alternative to these alternatives? What is > Right View in this situation? > 2 Suttas I know of may touch upon this: Bahiya Suta, (Udana): Train yourself thus: In the seen, let there be only the seen. In the heard, let there be only the heard. In the sensed let there be only the sensed. In the cognized, let there be only the cognized. When for you there is only the seen... only the heard.... only the sensed.... only the conized, there is no 'you' in terms of that. When there it no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder, and this, just this, is the end of suffering. Sabbasava Sutta (Majjhima): When he attends unwisely in this way, one of the six views arises in him.... "I have a self"... "I have no self"..... "I perceive self with self".... "I perceie not-self with self".... "I perceive self with not self".... "It is this self ofmine that speaks and feels and xperiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine ispermanent, everlasting, eternal, not subjct to change, and it will endure as long as eternity." 7322 From: Joshua Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:18pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Anders [and all listening], > The only difference I can discern between Parinibbana and mere cessation of being, > according to those taking the 'other side' of the argument from you, is that mere > cessation does not end karmas or prevent rebirth into a realm of suffering. > Parinibbana ends suffering and the cycle of birth and death. It does not > necessitate the prior existence of the Tathagata as an actual personage beyond the > kandhas. > > It would be Annihilationist to think that the Tathagata existed and ceases to be > with the onset of Parinibbana. But is it Nihilistic to say that the Tathagata > never existed as an entity in the first place, and that when the kandhas dissolve > having no more tendency to rebirth in his case, they merely do not arise again? > > I take your side in the argument, thinking that there is an existent reality to > awareness or Nibbana that is not associated with the kandhas. But I also realize > that this may be falling into mysticism and that it may be falling into > objectifying consciousness or awareness into an entity, just not a physical one. > > Whichever way you assert that Awareness or Nibbana exists after death, or that > Awareness or Nibbana does not exist after death, you fall into error. Idealistic > mysticism or Nihilism seem to be the only available choices in conceptual thinking > about this matter. It shows the amazing wisdom of the Buddha in refusing to > assert or deny these alternatives. > > So how is the problem solved? Is it necessary to assert the existence of a self, > Nibbana or consciousness? Is it necessasry to deny the existence of a self, > Nibbana or consciousness? What's the alternative to these alternatives? What is > Right View in this situation? > 2 Suttas I know of may touch upon this: Bahiya Suta, (Udana): Train yourself thus: In the seen, let there be only the seen. In the heard, let there be only the heard. In the sensed let there be only the sensed. In the cognized, let there be only the cognized. When for you there is only the seen... only the heard.... only the sensed.... only the conized, there is no 'you' in terms of that. When there it no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder, and this, just this, is the end of suffering. Sabbasava Sutta (Majjhima): When he attends unwisely in this way, one of the six views arises in him.... "I have a self"... "I have no self"..... "I perceive self with self".... "I perceie not-self with self".... "I perceive self with not self".... "It is this self ofmine that speaks and feels and xperiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine ispermanent, everlasting, eternal, not subjct to change, and it will endure as long as eternity." 7323 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:55pm Subject: Gandhabba As Re-linking Consciousness: Three Events Coincide Dear Dhamma Study Friends The following message (dhamma-list message 22247) is my reply to John R Overman's message (dhamma-list message 22241). The subject is a serious one. I thought you might find it useful, so I post it here. Hope you enjoy it. Suan ------------------------------------------------------ Dear John R Overman How are you? The Buddha's explanation is already complete and transparant. But, I think you would like further comment on the translator's explanation "gandhabba is not some disembodied spirit". By the way, this wasn't actual wording in the MN commentary Pali. The commentary is merely commenting on the expression "paccupatthito hoti" found in section 408 of Mulapannasa, Majjimanikaya original. The expression "Paccupatthito hoti" can mean "is standing in front" literally. But, this meaning does not apply to the re-linking consciousness (patisandhi cittam)of the dead one. So the commentator was forced to say the following. " Paccupatthito hotiti na matapitunam sannipatam olokayamano sammipethito paccupatthito nama hoti." "Is standing in front" wasn't like "standing close-by (sammipethito) while watching father and mother copulating". Now, the above Pali comment became "gandhabba is not some disembodied spirit" in the hands of the translator, I think. In Pali Buddhism, the re-linking consciousness follows immediately after the dying consciousness (cuti cittam). So when father and mother are copulating while mother is ovulating, someone dies and his re-linking consciounsess has a chance to conceive. All three events coincide. That is all there is to it. The right timing is made possible by the past actions of the father, mother and the embryo (gandhabba now with body). Re-linking consciousness is called "gandhabbo" in ordinary language. I hope my message makes sense to you and all other dhamma friends. With regards Suan Lu zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- John R Overman wrote: > In MN38, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, the last sentence of paragraph 26, 7324 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:57pm Subject: Testing - Erik --- Erik wrote: > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > > Yes, the real test of any insight into life and the 'realities' > which make up > > life has to be at this moment. > > Not so, Sarah! :) > > The REAL test is if the afflictions have been permanently terminated > or not. > Erik, what other time than this moment is there???> > > > 7325 From: Joshua Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 4:10pm Subject: Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > Bahiya Suta, (Udana): Train yourself thus: In the seen, let there be only the seen. In the heard, let there be only the heard. In the sensed let there be only the sensed. In the cognized, let there be only the cognized. When for you there is only the seen... only the heard.... only the sensed.... only the conized, there is no 'you' in terms of that. When there it no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder, and this, just this, is the end of suffering. > It goes: "You are neither here, nor yonder, nor in between" sorry 7326 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 4:25pm Subject: Re: looking for good Pali translation: Try Myanmar Embassy Dear Tadao How are you? Sorry about my late reply. I was busy the last two days, and I could not check messages here. You asked: "Could you please tell me how one can obtain the Tipitak CD-ROM?" Well, I requested the Myanmar Embassy in Canberra to get one for me, and that is how I got Chatthasangayana Myanmar Tipitaka CD-ROMs. As for Chatthasangayana Pali Tipitaka CD-ROMs, I got them through a branch of Vippasana Research Institute in Sydney. You also asked: "Have you been to Bruma?" Well, I come from Bruma ,and live in Canberra, Australia. Hope this message would help. Suan http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- ppp wrote: > Hi, Suan: > Thank you very much for more information on the Tipitak, etc. > Could you please tell me how one can obtain the Tipitak CD-ROM? > Thank you in advance, tadao > P.S. Have you been to Bruma? 7327 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Joshua wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Anders [and all listening], > > The only difference I can discern between Parinibbana and mere cessation of > being, > > according to those taking the 'other side' of the argument from you, is that > mere > > cessation does not end karmas or prevent rebirth into a realm of suffering. > > Parinibbana ends suffering and the cycle of birth and death. It does not > > necessitate the prior existence of the Tathagata as an actual personage beyond > the > > kandhas. > > > > It would be Annihilationist to think that the Tathagata existed and ceases to > be > > with the onset of Parinibbana. But is it Nihilistic to say that the Tathagata > > never existed as an entity in the first place, and that when the kandhas > dissolve > > having no more tendency to rebirth in his case, they merely do not arise > again? > > > > I take your side in the argument, thinking that there is an existent reality > to > > awareness or Nibbana that is not associated with the kandhas. But I also > realize > > that this may be falling into mysticism and that it may be falling into > > objectifying consciousness or awareness into an entity, just not a physical > one. > > > > Whichever way you assert that Awareness or Nibbana exists after death, or that > > Awareness or Nibbana does not exist after death, you fall into error. > Idealistic > > mysticism or Nihilism seem to be the only available choices in conceptual > thinking > > about this matter. It shows the amazing wisdom of the Buddha in refusing to > > assert or deny these alternatives. > > > > So how is the problem solved? Is it necessary to assert the existence of a > self, > > Nibbana or consciousness? Is it necessasry to deny the existence of a self, > > Nibbana or consciousness? What's the alternative to these alternatives? What > is > > Right View in this situation? > > > > 2 Suttas I know of may touch upon this: > > Bahiya Suta, (Udana): Train yourself thus: In the seen, let there be only the > seen. In the heard, let there be only the heard. In the sensed let there be only > the sensed. In the cognized, let there be only the cognized. When for you there > is only the seen... only the heard.... only the sensed.... only the conized, > there is no 'you' in terms of that. When there it no you in terms of that, there > is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder, > and this, just this, is the end of suffering. > > Sabbasava Sutta (Majjhima): When he attends unwisely in this way, one of the six > views arises in him.... "I have a self"... "I have no self"..... "I perceive > self with self".... "I perceie not-self with self".... "I perceive self with not > self".... "It is this self ofmine that speaks and feels and xperiences here and > there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine ispermanent, > everlasting, eternal, not subjct to change, and it will endure as long as > eternity." Thanks. Those quotes are very clear and helpful. Robert E. 7328 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana --- Joshua wrote: > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance, but what sutras would one specifically read to get the > > instructions outlined in this talk. > > > > What is the basic collection necessary for this. > > > > Or is it the whole Canon.................... > > > > > > Best, > > Robert E. > > > > Ok, aside from the suttas dealing only with Satipatthana, I would say (roughly) > > Anguttara II.29 > Anguttara IX.63-64 (he mentions) > Majjhima 68 (he mentions) > Majjhima 107 > > The last one outlines step by step exactly how a monk should train himself in a > sequential manner. > > Hope that helps. Thank you. I will try to look at those when I am able. Robert E. 7329 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation --- Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Epstein" > > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:11 AM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation > > > > Dear Anders [and all listening], > > > Right View in this situation? > > > > Robert > > Practice. Practice and investigate the Turning of the Wheel x 12 and the 40 > trainings the Buddha left. > > Aristotelian logic cannot be applied here. > > If there is such a thing as a "glimpse" or "taste", then it is experiential > and words render only crude approximations. > > The map, the address is not the place. Conventional. > > Absolute Dhamma truth is not found in a conundrum or words, tautologies, or > paradigm testing. > > I think the question is less about the problem of "Tathagatology". ;-) > > I am not an expert but the insight here is without much left to express in > words... there is the Path but no walker on it. (Vis. Mag.) > > Metta, > > Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Thanks. I knew I was avoiding something: more practice. Robert E. 7330 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:22pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science: Robert With Journalistic Ease Dear Robert Kirkpatrick How are you? You have just discussed such a complex issue with a journalistic ease and skill. I have been busy with organiational matters, so I won't be able to enter the fray now. But I will be following Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science started by Howard and You. With regards Suan http://www.bodhiolgy.org/ --- <> wrote: > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > > > ============================== > > You mention the following: "According to the Abhidhamma mind > states > > are arising and falling away 17 times faster than rupa." This is > something > > that I've thought about a bit, and I find somewhat perplexing. What > I find > > perplexing is not the possibility that the flow of cittas moves at > a greater > > rate than the corresponding flow of discerned rupas, but, rather > how it is > > possible that that should come to be "known"! Any knowing, as I > understand > > Abhidhamma to assert, occurs momentarily, withing a citta. But the > flow of > > cittas is, by definition, something going beyond any individual > citta. In > > what mind moment can the flow be observed, measured, and compared > with the > > flow of rupas? If all knowing is a momentary affair, I see a > problem here. > > Can you help my understanding with this? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ____________ > Dear Howard, > I think we have an idea of what panna knows and how it knows. > > Like the recent discussion about the fact that panna knows the > immediately preceeding mind processes: > > This worries us if we assume that citta can only know itself at the > exact moment it arises. In fact as we discussed a moment of citta > with lobha cannot understand itself- but following processes with > panna can understand the lobha. It is all happening fantastically > fast and thus it is still correct to talk about knowing the present > moment. Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no > understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after these. > > The moments of javanna citta with panna arise in a series of seven > cittas that are conditioned by each other. There is an accumualation > of understanding during this time (see the Patthana) and also there > are further conditions by upanissaya paccaya for more insight in > future processes. > If we think of panna as a sort of mind atom that knows only some > cittas (say) then we limit the nature and function of panna. Panna > has the function of understanding and is a dhamma that has no limits. > It can even grow to the degree of understanding all dhammas > perfectly - such as the panna of a sammasamBuddha. > Because it is not a predominant dhamma (except in the truly wise - > the ariya puggala) we tend to have conceptions (some right some > wrong) about its nature. Panna, of a level, is present even now when > we reflect correctly about the deeper aspects of Dhamma; and is > present, at another level, when there is genuine direct insight into > the characteristic of a dhamma: but it is not yet a power (bala) and > so its characteristic may be hard to discern. > I don't know if this helps. > best wishes > robert 7331 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Ranil, Many thanks for joining us here and for posting these words of wisdom! Are you Sri Lankan AND living in Sri Lanka?(unlike Gayan as we just found out;-))- Now I'm dreaming about ripe mangoes! Look forward to hearing plenty more from you. I've also been appreciating the posts which have reminded me of the wonderful opportunity we have now , not only as humans, but also to study and understand the dhamma. Best wishes, Sarah -- ranil gunawardena wrote: > Well, as I have say a short "hellow" I say "hellow to all of you!" and just > want to say that I "also" have been lucky just like all of "you" to get a > "human life in this very short period of a Buddha sasana" in this "infinite" > sansara - specially, because using "this life" any person can limit his > infinite sansara to a maxium of future seven lives only. But keeping in mind > that you have to "let" the mango rippen... > > ~ may we all get wisdom, to "understand" nirvana > Ranil 7332 From: Cybele Chiodi Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 7:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Testing - Erik Dear Sarah Don't count on prompty replies from Erik because he is in a retreat in Angkor. You know we 'meditators' enjoy 'refuging' in monasteries... ;-))))) Metta Cybele 7333 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... Howard Some time ago now you posted the message below in our discussion on the path factor of Right Effort. Thank you for the sutta reference on the 4 aspects of right effort, and my apologies for taking so long to get back to you. The 4 aspects of right effort as a path factor are also known as the 4 samma-padhanas (right endeavours). Indeed, the Visuddhimagga in its description of the content of the 4th noble truth (the truth of the path) (XVI, 86) explains that -- "The term right effort [samma-vayama] includes the fourfold right endeavour [samma-padhana], the energy faculty [viriyindriya], energy power [viriya-bala], and energy enlightenment factor [viriyasambojjhanga]." These different terms are in effect all synonyms. As you know, the Buddha often explained the same realities in different ways with different emphases. Later, in the section dealing with the 4 right endeavours (XXII, 33), the Vism explains that what is being referred to is viriya cetasika ('energy'). It says -- "… Or alternatively: by its means people endeavour rightly, thus it is right endeavour. … It is a name for energy. It accomplishes the functions of abandoning arisen unprofitable things, preventing the arising of those not yet arisen, arousing unarisen unprofitable things, and maintaining those already arisen; thus it is fourfold. That is why 'four right endeavours' is said." In this passage, "energy" is the Vism translation for viriya cetasika. It is by means of this cetasika when it is 'right', ie. when it arises with a path moment, that a person is said to endeavour rightly. It is not a case of the person 'endeavouring' in a way that causes right endeavour to arise. Nor is it a case of a person having to endeavour in each of 4 different ways. As the passage explains, it is called 'the four' because it performs its function in 4 slightly different aspects. The text goes on (XXII, 39, 40) to explain that at mundane path moments [ie. a moment of satipatthana], viriya cetasika endeavours rightly in one or other of the 4 ways, depending on the circumstances in which the moment of consciousness occurs. At supramundane path-moments, however, [ie. when nibbana is the object] viriya cetasika endeavours rightly in all 4 ways at the one moment. The Vism says that at such moments -- "the one kind of energy is called 'four right endeavours' because it accomplishes the four functions beginning with preventing the arising of the unarisen unprofitable." Howard, I hope these references give some food for thought. Jon --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon - > =============================== > Well, I don't know. The following, which deals with the path > factor of > right Effort, is copied from the Access to Insight site. It all sounds > quite > conventional to me. It seems to discuss something which is *do-able*, > whereas > a "right effort" dealing with abhidhammic citta factors and "ultimate > realities" seems to me to be something rather beyond practicing. The > material > follows. > > With metta, > Howard > > > Right Effort > > samma vayamo > > > Right Effort is the sixth of the eight path factors in HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sacca4.html">the Noble > Eightfold > Path, and belongs to the HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sacca4.html#3fold">concentration > division of the path. The definition > (the four Right Exertions): > > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > > > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his > > intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities > that > > have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > abandonment of > > evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates > desire, > > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the > sake > > of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] > "He > > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts > his > > intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > > development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This, > > monks, is called right effort." > > >> -- HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html">SN > XLV.8 > > 7334 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana Rob. E In answer to your question-- --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, but what sutras would one specifically read to get > the > instructions outlined in this talk. > > What is the basic collection necessary for this. > > Or is it the whole Canon.................... I would say yes, the whole Canon, including the commentaries. I say this because it is easy to read individual suttas, or event the whole Canon for that matter, and find 'support' for just about any way of practice. In the case of the article below, there are several passages which contain statements, inferences or assumptions that are not supported by the ancient commentators, so one might want to consider things carefully. Only by one's own study and investigation over a long period of time can one learn to discriminate. Jon > Best, > Robert E. > > > > --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > SATIPATTHANA > > THE FOURFOLD FOCUS OF MINDFULNESS > > By Ajahn Brahmavamso > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > > > More has been said about the practice of Satipatthana than about any > other > > meditation practice by Buddhist teachers of today... except by this > monk! So > > in this Dhamma article I will keep up with the trend by presenting > some > > practical observations on this most misunderstood of Lord Buddha's > > Teachings. > > > > Those of you who have been "sitting around" Buddhist Centres for a > while > > have probably heard some teachers claim that the fourfold "Focus of > > Mindfulness" (my translation of "Satipatthana") is the "one and only > way" to > > the goal of full Enlightenment! Although this is an impressive sales > pitch > > for the teaching, it is neither a true translation of the original > text nor > > consistent with what the Lord Buddha said elsewhere. The very phrase > > ("Ekayana Magga") which is mistranslated as "one and only way" occurs > again > > in the l2th Sutta (discourse) of the Majjhima collection where it > > unmistakably means a "path with only one possible destination". Many > > different paths can share a common destination. In fact, the "one and > only > > path" is the Lord Buddha's description, not of Satipatthana, but of > the > > Noble Eightfold Path: > > > > "Of all Ways, the Noble Eightfold Path is the best. > > This is the only way, there is none other for the purity of insight" > > Dhammapada verses 273 and 274 (abridged) > > > > Thus, the "only way" to Enlightenment, as all Buddhists should know > anyway, > > is the Noble Eightfold Path. The fourfold Focus of Mindfulness > constitutes > > only a part of this Path, the 7th factor. Jhanas are the 8th factor > and > > there is also Right View, Right Intention, Right Effort and the three > > factors of Right Virtue. Each of these eight factors are necessary to > > achieve the goal of full Enlightenment. lf any were redundant, then > the Lord > > Buddha would have taught a 7-fold path, or a 6-fold path etc. So, in > your > > practice of Buddhism, please keep in mind that all eight factors of > the > > noble Eightfold Path should be cultivated as the "one and only way". > > Now the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness method as taught by the Lord > Buddha, > > is a very advanced practice. So advanced that the Lord Buddha said > that if > > anyone should develop them in the way He described for only seven > days, then > > they would achieve full Enlightenment or the state of non-returner. > Many > > meditators reading this may have gone on such a retreat for nine days > or > > even more and not yet fulfilled this most lofty of the Lord Buddha's > > promises. Why not? Because, I suggest, you were not following the Lord > > Buddha's instructions. > > > > If you want to practise the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness in the way > that > > the Lord Buddha said leads so rapidly to Enlightenment, then certain > things > > are required before you begin. The essential preparations are in > short, full > > cultivation of the other seven factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. > Or, as > > the Lord Budda said in the Anguttara collection ('Nines', Suttas 63 > and 64), > > one should maintain the five Precepts (the longer the better), abandon > the > > five Hindrances and then practise Satipatthana. > > > > These vital prerequisites are actually stated by the Lord Buddha in > His two > > discourses on the fourfold Focus of Mindfulness, as "Vineyya Loke > > Abhijjha-Domanassam" (please forgive me quoting Pali. It is the only > way I > > can make this important point). This phrase is usually translated as > "having > > put away covetousness and grief for the world", or something similar. > Such > > translations mean so little to meditators that they ignore this > instruction > > altogether, and thereby miss the bus! In the time of the Lord Buddha, > the > > monks, nuns and lay disciples would have understood the phrase to mean > > "after having abandoned the five Hindrances"! The authoritative > commentaries > > to the two Satipatthana Suttas taught by the Lord Buddha both clearly > state > > that "Abhijjha-Domanassam" (sorry for the Pali again!) refer precisely > to > > the five Hindrances. Elsewhere in the recorded Teachings of the Lord > Buddha, > > "Abhijjha" is a synonym for the first Hindrance, "Domanassam" is a > synonym > > for the second Hindrance, and together they stand, in Pali idiom, as > an > > abbreviation for all five. This then means that the five Hindrances > must be > > abandoned first before beginning any of the Focus of Mindfulness > practices. > > It is, in my not-so-humble opinion, precisely because meditators > attempt to > > practise the Satipatthana method with some of the Hindrances still > remaining > > that they achieve no great or lasting result. > > > > It is the function of Jhana practice, the ultimate factor of the Noble > > Eightfold Path, to abandon all of the five Hindrances long enough to > gain > > BIG Insight. For example, in the 68th Sutta of the Majjhima collection > > ("Nalakapanna"), the Lord Buddha stated that for the meditator who > does not > > attain to Jhana, the five Hindrances together with discontent and > weariness > > invade the mind and remain. Only when one does attain to Jhana do the > five > > Hindrances together with discontent and weariness not invade one's > mind and > > remain the way the Lord Buddha said it is. > > > > Any meditator who has experienced the powerful Jhanas would know > through > > that experience, and what happens after, what a mind without any > Hindrances > > is truly like. The meditator who hasn't known Jhanas does not realise > the > > many subtle forms Hindrances can take. They may think that the > hindrances > > are abandoned but, the truth is, they just don't see them and so do > not get > > great results in their meditation. This is why Samatha practice which > > cultivates Jhana is part of the Satipatthana teaching and why it is > > misinformation to call Satipatthana "pure Vipassana". Even my teacher, > Ajahn > > Chah, said over and over again that Samatha and Vipassana, "calm and > > insight", go together and are inseparable as the two faces of a coin. > > > > Having patiently completed the necessary preparations, the meditator > > sustains their mindfulness on one of the four focuses: their own body, > the > > pleasure and pain associated with each sense, the mind consciousness > and, > > fourthly, the objects of mind. When the Hindrances are gone and one > can > > sustain one's powerful and penetrating attention on these four > objects, only > > then is it possible to realise that deep in our psyche, far deeper > than the > > veil of intelligent thinking, we have been assuming a Self. We have > been > > assuming that this body is "me" or "mine", that pleasure or pain has > > something to do with me, that the mind which looks on is our Soul or > > something close, and that the objects of mind such as thought or > volition > > (the 'chooser') is a Self, me, or mine. In short, the purpose of the > > fourfold Focus of Mindfulness is to instruct one what to do when one > has > > emerged from a Jhana, to uncover the deeply disguised delusion of a > Soul and > > then see what the Lord Buddha saw, the Truth of Anatta. > > > > This is not an easy thing to do, but it can be done, and it can take > only > > seven days. That is if one follows the Lord Buddha's instructions, > follows > > them and takes no short cuts. > > > > Ajahn Brahm > > (From: Newsletter, July-October 1997, > > Buddhist Society of Western Australia, Perth, Australia) 7335 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear bhante Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!! Bhante I was missing you; glad to know you returned in full shape! ;-))) Love Cybele > > > Dear Anders [and all listening], > > > Right View in this situation? > > > > Robert > >Practice. Practice and investigate the Turning of the Wheel x 12 and the 40 >trainings the Buddha left. > >Aristotelian logic cannot be applied here. > >If there is such a thing as a "glimpse" or "taste", then it is experiential >and words render only crude approximations. > >The map, the address is not the place. Conventional. > >Absolute Dhamma truth is not found in a conundrum or words, tautologies, or >paradigm testing. > >I think the question is less about the problem of "Tathagatology". ;-) > >I am not an expert but the insight here is without much left to express in >words... there is the Path but no walker on it. (Vis. Mag.) > >Metta, > >Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo > 7336 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana Hi Robert E. As I am the one the one who posted Ajahn Bramavamso, I would suggest you to read more of his texts as well. Love Cybele 7337 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Robert E. No my my sadhu x 3 goes to you. Great!!! Much appreciation. mudita Cybele > >Thanks. I knew I was avoiding something: more practice. > >Robert E. > > > 7338 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana Dear Jon Dear Robert E. > > Or is it the whole Canon.................... > >that matter, and find 'support' for just about any way of practice. > >In the case of the article below, there are several passages which contain >statements, inferences or assumptions that are not supported by the >ancient commentators, so one might want to consider things carefully. >Only by one's own study and investigation over a long period of time can >one learn to discriminate. > >Jon Indeed Jon, one can study, meditate and investigate our mind carefully and therefore learn to discriminate and don't be TOO attached only to the ancient texts and commentaries but be openminded also to different approaches and interpretations. Sometimes our loyalty to the Tipitaka can lead to a kind of subtle fundamentalism and narrowmindness. Metta Cybele 7339 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 7:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/9/01 10:52:19 PM EDT, you quote me (Howard): > --- Howard wrote: > > > > > > > ============================== > > You mention the following: "According to the Abhidhamma mind > states > > are arising and falling away 17 times faster than rupa." This is > something > > that I've thought about a bit, and I find somewhat perplexing. What > I find > > perplexing is not the possibility that the flow of cittas moves at > a greater > > rate than the corresponding flow of discerned rupas, but, rather > how it is > > possible that that should come to be "known"! Any knowing, as I > understand > > Abhidhamma to assert, occurs momentarily, withing a citta. But the > flow of > > cittas is, by definition, something going beyond any individual > citta. In > > what mind moment can the flow be observed, measured, and compared > with the > > flow of rupas? If all knowing is a momentary affair, I see a > problem here. > > Can you help my understanding with this? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ____________ > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, Robert. You then offer a reply which is important to me and which I would like to pursue with further questions, if that's okay. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ear Howard, > I think we have an idea of what panna knows and how it knows. > > Like the recent discussion about the fact that panna knows the > immediately preceeding mind processes: > > This worries us if we assume that citta can only know itself at the > exact moment it arises. In fact as we discussed a moment of citta > with lobha cannot understand itself- but following processes with > panna can understand the lobha. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Directly, by some sort of retrospective knowing? Or indirectly, as a memory? ------------------------------------------------------------ It is all happening fantastically > fast and thus it is still correct to talk about knowing the present > moment. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the relative speed is part what the original issue was. But what seems most important here is the question of whether the wisdom of a current citta is able to *directly* know what goes beyond that citta. ---------------------------------------------------------- Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no > understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after these. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Again, does that understanding directly apprehend what no longer exists? (If yes, this is reminiscent of the Sarvastivadin view of dhammas existing at all times.) ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The moments of javanna citta with panna arise in a series of seven > cittas that are conditioned by each other. There is an accumualation > of understanding during this time (see the Patthana) and also there > are further conditions by upanissaya paccaya for more insight in > future processes. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. This is starting to sound good to me. But again, I wonder whether the accumulated understanding is an understanding of a *memory* of a series of events. ---------------------------------------------------------- > If we think of panna as a sort of mind atom that knows only some > cittas (say) then we limit the nature and function of panna. Panna > has the function of understanding and is a dhamma that has no limits. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Am I correct in understanding the Abhidhamma view of panna to be that of a function accompanying a given mind-moment/citta, and being an aspect of it? If yes, does it go beyond that citta by some means other than memory? ----------------------------------------------------------- > It can even grow to the degree of understanding all dhammas > perfectly - such as the panna of a sammasamBuddha. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. My question is: "By what means?". (It is, after all, not nibbana, not the supermundane reality which transcends the triple world, but, rather, a feature of a citta.) *How* does it grow beyond all limits? ----------------------------------------------------------- > Because it is not a predominant dhamma (except in the truly wise - > the ariya puggala) we tend to have conceptions (some right some > wrong) about its nature. Panna, of a level, is present even now when > we reflect correctly about the deeper aspects of Dhamma; and is > present, at another level, when there is genuine direct insight into > the characteristic of a dhamma: but it is not yet a power (bala) and > so its characteristic may be hard to discern. > I don't know if this helps. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It helps a lot, Robert, but, in the process, leads to ever more questions! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------- > best wishes > robert > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7340 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/10/01 3:00:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard > > Just a quick comment on your main thread here. > > Is there any more reason why we should take comfort from an apparent > 'confirmation' of the teachings in the findings of cognitive science, than > we should be discouraged by an apparent contradiction arising from those > findings? > > Put another way, can the findings of cognitive science really give any > indication either way about any crucial aspect of the teachings? > > ========================== Yes, I think, so for the following reasons: (1) I have enormous, virtually unshakeable, confidence in the Buddha and his Dhamma, but not so in others and their claims, even including the eminent Buddhaghosa. (2) There is a legitimate question as to whether the source of the Abhidhamma pitaka was the Buddha, himself, inasmuch as much evidence suggests the development of the Abhidhamma over a period of centuries following the Buddha's parinibbana. It may very well be the case that the Buddha *was* the source, with the original exposition being in a heaven world, and then repeated to Sariputta, with the eventual passing along of it, and the recording of it, taking many centuries. But for me to believe that, which I certainly would find pleasing, a bit of supporting evidence wouldn't hurt! (3) The "world", both nama and rupa, both internal and external, seems to hang together in a coherent, holistic fashion, and one would expect a truth about the world to be supported both internally and externally. If scientific experiments were to point to only one object of discernment at a time, that would be most interesting and corroborative. On the other hand, a clear demonstration of parallel processing wherein, for example, multi-sense objects could co-occur would also have an impact! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7341 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 0:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Regarding Parinibbana and annihilation Dear Robert, --- Robert Epstein wrote: > I feel like I sometimes step off a limb on this > list, because I am admittedly > using my own logic and my knowledge of Buddhism, > which has been consistent, but > not thorough in the Pali Canon. I am a little more > familiar with works and > concepts of Ch'an Buddhism, but my interest in > Theravada is sincere. Your posts continue to impress me (for what that's worth) by their sincerity and insightfulness. I was a Zen student myself for ten years or so and had lost interest in it altogether until reading Tadao's remarkable post at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6125 I also admire your logic. I think students of Dhammavinaya are meant to use logic in combination, of course, with investigation of dhammas and study of the teachings. > I know that at times people will have to tell me > that at least as far as the Pali > Canon and the Tripitaka are concerned, that I am way > off, or not understanding the > Buddha's intent. And I am prepared for that. It's > part of my learning process. Same here. > At the same time, I can sometimes have a valid view > and contribute something. Certainly. > I have been reading Thich Nath Hanh's translation of > the SUTRA ON COMPLETE > AWARENESS OF THE BREATH, and I am amazed at its > simplicity and completeness. It > spells out the Buddha's path in a way that anyone > with an open mind can > understand. The Theravadan Canon has this kind of > clarity and structure to offer, > and someone like myself, who has struggled with > Ch'an and Zen methodology for a > long time, can really appreciate the kind of > grounding and surety of path that > this can give me. I haven't read this translation but have been impressed by his writing in the past. The clarity and structure you mention in the Pali canon was a great relief to me, too, after years of Ch'an/Zen practice. > We are all working with our tendencies and > accumulations, in whatever form, and > the fact that you accidentally sent your note to > this group instead of as a > private message should not be a cause for alarm or > embarrassment. It was > obviously meant to be here, and it opened up issues > and topics that might not have > been looked at otherwise. I consider every event in > a group like this to be a > good one, and I'm happy to rise to the occasion, and > chew on what you have > contributed. Tendencies and accumulations (what I think of as sankharakhanda) are fertile ground for mindfulness (dhammanusati(sp?)). Unfortunately they are the continuous results of incomprehensibly vast numbers of unimaginably complex condtions from the past--since we can't change the past, we also can't change the present manifestations of its conditions. Fortunately, on the other hand, tendencies and accumulations CAN be understood as not-self--at that moment, 'personality' can be seen for the insignificant thing that it is. Having a rather rotten personality myself, I find this reflection quite liberating. (This isn't to say that kusala can't or shouldn't be cultivated despite personality--it can and should). In other words, I don't think personality-change is the object of Dhammavinaya patipatti--just a beneficial (and VERY gradual, usually) side-effect. I'm rambling--thanks again for the good words. mike 7342 From: Howard Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/10/01 10:16:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > Howard > > Some time ago now you posted the message below in our discussion on the > path factor of Right Effort. Thank you for the sutta reference on the 4 > aspects of right effort, and my apologies for taking so long to get back > to you. > > The 4 aspects of right effort as a path factor are also known as the 4 > samma-padhanas (right endeavours). Indeed, the Visuddhimagga in its > description of the content of the 4th noble truth (the truth of the path) > (XVI, 86) explains that -- > > "The term right effort [samma-vayama] includes the fourfold right > endeavour [samma-padhana], the energy faculty [viriyindriya], energy power > [viriya-bala], and energy enlightenment factor [viriyasambojjhanga]." > > These different terms are in effect all synonyms. As you know, the Buddha > often explained the same realities in different ways with different > emphases. > > Later, in the section dealing with the 4 right endeavours (XXII, 33), the > Vism explains that what is being referred to is viriya cetasika > ('energy'). It says -- > > "… Or alternatively: by its means people endeavour rightly, thus it is > right endeavour. … It is a name for energy. It accomplishes the functions > of abandoning arisen unprofitable things, preventing the arising of those > not yet arisen, arousing unarisen unprofitable things, and maintaining > those already arisen; thus it is fourfold. That is why 'four right > endeavours' is said." > > In this passage, "energy" is the Vism translation for viriya cetasika. It > is by means of this cetasika when it is 'right', ie. when it arises with a > path moment, that a person is said to endeavour rightly. It is not a case > of the person 'endeavouring' in a way that causes right endeavour to > arise. Nor is it a case of a person having to endeavour in each of 4 > different ways. As the passage explains, it is called 'the four' because > it performs its function in 4 slightly different aspects. > > The text goes on (XXII, 39, 40) to explain that at mundane path moments > [ie. a moment of satipatthana], viriya cetasika endeavours rightly in one > or other of the 4 ways, depending on the circumstances in which the moment > of consciousness occurs. At supramundane path-moments, however, [ie. when > nibbana is the object] viriya cetasika endeavours rightly in all 4 ways at > the one moment. The Vism says that at such moments -- > > "the one kind of energy is called 'four right endeavours' because it > accomplishes the four functions beginning with preventing the arising of > the unarisen unprofitable." > > Howard, I hope these references give some food for thought. > > Jon > ============================== Thank you for this. I do understand it, seeing it as a "higher-order", Abhidhammic explanation of Right Effort, without disputing the conventional Right Effort emphasized in the Sutta Pitaka. I would be interested in sutta references which also suggest such an interpretation. Would you or anyone know of such? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7343 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 2:57am Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? / Buddhaghosa Dear Howards, It should be obvious this message is strictly my view/understandings without implying that Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa had said this. Such as yourself and many others (I am sure), I have very strong confidence about the Buddha, his teachings, and the Sangha. However, I believe that the Buddha's teaching is detailed and subtle, and it is important to learn the meanings of his teachings carefully. It is obviously difficult to have an understanding encompassing the entire tipitikas (for you the Vinnanaya and the Suttantra, and for some of us, also the Abhidhamma) that would improve my confidence that I understand what the Buddha really meant. Hence, I look for some other aids to help us understanding the basics of his teachings. For me, and probably for some members of this group, Buddhaghosa, an evident expert in the Pali language and the teachings in the three tipitiakas, and a person with access to matterials which are reputed to be works of ancient acariya, is the most well-known of all acariyas. And hence, I count V. Buddhaghosa as a teacher. Even this is overwhelming, and therefore, I further count others (TA Sujin, Nina, Roberts, etc.) as teachers, on the premise that these people keep true to sticking the meanings as the Buddha has taught. I anumoddhana your efforts in making sure what you heard from others as being Buddha's teachings are actually Buddha's teachings. Now, something that may be related to your original post... ;-) --- Howard wrote: > Thank you for this. I do understand it, seeing it as a "higher- order", > Abhidhammic explanation of Right Effort, without disputing the conventional > Right Effort emphasized in the Sutta Pitaka. I would be interested in sutta > references which also suggest such an interpretation. Would you or anyone > know of such? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html The above sutta appears (to me) to imply the separation of the "conventional" practices that are kusala (but results in rebirth), and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. When I read the teachings about the "path factor without taints", it appears to match the teachings about the path factors as being supramundane factors at the moment of enlightenment. The implication may also extend to cover the teaching of the 5-fold path, ie., satipatthana which is mundane. kom 7344 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 5:44am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science ---Dear Howard, These are difficult questions. I am just going out and won't be near a computer for a couple of days. Very briefly: -------- > Howard: > Okay, Robert. You then offer a reply which is important to me and > which I would like to pursue with further questions, if that's okay. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > ear Howard, > > I think we have an idea of what panna knows and how it knows. > > > > Like the recent discussion about the fact that panna knows the > > immediately preceeding mind processes: > > > > This worries us if we assume that citta can only know itself at the > > exact moment it arises. In fact as we discussed a moment of citta > > with lobha cannot understand itself- but following processes with > > panna can understand the lobha. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Directly, by some sort of retrospective knowing? Or indirectly, as a > memory? > ------------------------------------------------------------ rOBERT:It is all happening fantastically > > fast and thus it is still correct to talk about knowing the present > > moment. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, the relative speed is part what the original issue was. But what > seems most important here is the question of whether the wisdom of a current > citta is able to *directly* know what goes beyond that citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Robert: It is known directly . I do remember reading a tika years ago that went into a degree of detail about this but look as i may have not been able to find it. > Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no > > understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after these. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Again, does that understanding directly apprehend what no longer > exists? (If yes, this is reminiscent of the Sarvastivadin view of dhammas > existing at all times.) > ------------------------------------------------------------ Robert: Can you accept that at a moment when greed takes an object there can be no understanding but that the greed can be seen (immediately after it falls away) by panna? If we see that this is just the way it is (in practice)these doubts will fade. ________ > > The moments of javanna citta with panna arise in a series of seven > > cittas that are conditioned by each other. There is an accumualation > > of understanding during this time (see the Patthana) and also there > > are further conditions by upanissaya paccaya for more insight in > > future processes. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. This is starting to sound good to me. But again, I wonder > whether the accumulated understanding is an understanding of a *memory* of a > series of events. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Robert > > If we think of panna as a sort of mind atom that knows only some > > cittas (say) then we limit the nature and function of panna. Panna > > has the function of understanding and is a dhamma that has no limits. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Am I correct in understanding the Abhidhamma view of panna to be that > of a function accompanying a given mind-moment/citta, and being an aspect of > it? If yes, does it go beyond that citta by some means other than memory? > ----------------------------------------------------------- Robert: Panna is a cetasika and is ENTIRELY different from citta. However, it arises always in association with citta. Sanna (perception, memory) is likewise different from citta and panna. Because these three very different realities have some characteristics that are similar - they all know an object - they are often confused. For example, very often people experience some subtle sensations in the body after they begin meditation. They assume that this is wisdom(panna) that is knowing it while such things can all be known by citta and sanna not associated with panna. > > > It can even grow to the degree of understanding all dhammas > > perfectly - such as the panna of a sammasamBuddha. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's fine. My question is: "By what means?". (It is, after all, not > nibbana, not the supermundane reality which transcends the triple world, but, > rather, a feature of a citta.) *How* does it grow beyond all limits? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Robert: Nibbana can know nothing. Panna is nama thus it is not bound in the way rupa (matter) is. Wisdom grows if the conditions are right. The conditions for the growth of wisdom are elaboarted in the texts. ___________ > > > Because it is not a predominant dhamma (except in the truly wise - > > the ariya puggala) we tend to have conceptions (some right some > > wrong) about its nature. Panna, of a level, is present even now when > > we reflect correctly about the deeper aspects of Dhamma; and is > > present, at another level, when there is genuine direct insight into > > the characteristic of a dhamma: but it is not yet a power (bala) and > > so its characteristic may be hard to discern. > > I don't know if this helps. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It helps a lot, Robert, but, in the process, leads to ever more > questions! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------------------- > best wishes robert 7345 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 3:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? / Bud... Hi, Kom - In a message dated 8/10/01 3:00:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kom Tukovinit writes: > > Dear Howards, > > It should be obvious this message is strictly my view/understandings > without implying that Abhidhamma or Buddhaghosa had said this. > > Such as yourself and many others (I am sure), I have very strong > confidence about the Buddha, his teachings, and the Sangha. However, > I believe that the Buddha's teaching is detailed and subtle, and it is > important to learn the meanings of his teachings carefully. It is > obviously difficult to have an understanding encompassing the entire > tipitikas (for you the Vinnanaya and the Suttantra, and for some of us, > also the Abhidhamma) that would improve my confidence that I > understand what the Buddha really meant. > > Hence, I look for some other aids to help us understanding the basics of > his teachings. For me, and probably for some members of this group, > Buddhaghosa, an evident expert in the Pali language and the teachings > in the three tipitiakas, and a person with access to matterials which are > reputed to be works of ancient acariya, is the most well-known of all > acariyas. And hence, I count V. Buddhaghosa as a teacher. Even this is > overwhelming, and therefore, I further count others (TA Sujin, Nina, > Roberts, etc.) as teachers, on the premise that these people keep true > to sticking the meanings as the Buddha has taught. > > I anumoddhana your efforts in making sure what you heard from others > as being Buddha's teachings are actually Buddha's teachings. > > Now, something that may be related to your original post... ;-) > > --- Howard wrote: > > Thank you for this. I do understand it, seeing it as a "higher- > order", > > Abhidhammic explanation of Right Effort, without disputing the > conventional > > Right Effort emphasized in the Sutta Pitaka. I would be interested in > sutta > > references which also suggest such an interpretation. Would you or > anyone > > know of such? > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > The above sutta appears (to me) to imply the separation of > the "conventional" practices that are kusala (but results in rebirth), and > the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. When I read the > teachings about the "path factor without taints", it appears to match the > teachings about the path factors as being supramundane factors at the > moment of enlightenment. The implication may also extend to cover the > teaching of the 5-fold path, ie., satipatthana which is mundane. > > kom > =============================== Thank you for this. It is an interesting sutta! What it does for the most part is, for each of the factors of the eightfold path, give a description of that factor "with fermentations", and also "without fermentations". An example is the following: "And what is right action? Right action, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right action with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right action, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right action that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Abstaining from killing, from taking what is not given, & from illicit sex. This is the right action that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right action that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, desisting, abstinence, avoidance of the three forms of bodily misconduct in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right action that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." Thus, what seems to be said is that each of the 8 factors of the path becomes "without fermentations" when it is carried out by "... one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path." The difference seems to be the state of the mind involved rather than the factor, itself. I'm not sure what is the significance of this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7346 From: Howard Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 4:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - I shall attempt some snipping of the following in order to zero-in on the gist of the current conversation. In a message dated 8/10/01 5:45:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > . But what > > seems most important here is the question of whether the wisdom of > a current > > citta is able to *directly* know what goes beyond that citta. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Robert: It is known directly . I do remember reading a tika years ago > that went into a degree of detail about this but look as i may have > not been able to find it. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, thanks. This strikes me as implying that wisdom can *directly* observe a past event. Surprising, but, hey - maybe! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- > > Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no > > > understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after > these. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Again, does that understanding directly apprehend what no > longer > > exists? (If yes, this is reminiscent of the Sarvastivadin view of > dhammas > > existing at all times.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Robert: Can you accept that at a moment when greed takes an object > there can be no understanding but that the greed can be seen > (immediately after it falls away) by panna? If we see that this is > just the way it is (in practice)these doubts will fade. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I can accept that. But my expectation would be that the "seeing" of the greed which is no longer there is really the seeing of a *fresh memory* of the greed, the knowing that the greed *was* just there, rather than a direct knowing of the no-longer-existing greed, itself. (Of course, you did imply before that wisdom can somehow *directly* observe a past event, and maybe that is so.) -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > Am I correct in understanding the Abhidhamma view of panna > to be that > > of a function accompanying a given mind-moment/citta, and being an > aspect of > > it? If yes, does it go beyond that citta by some means other than > memory? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Robert: Panna is a cetasika and is ENTIRELY different from citta. > However, it arises always in association with citta. Sanna > (perception, memory) is likewise different from citta and panna. > Because these three very different realities have some > characteristics that are similar - they all know an object - they are > often confused. For example, very often people experience some subtle > sensations in the body after they begin meditation. They assume that > this is wisdom(panna) that is knowing it while such things can all be > known by citta and sanna not associated with panna. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thank you very much for emphasizing this! I fear I was falling into a substantialist way of thinking, viewing a citta as a "thing" existing for a period of time, with the accompanying cetasikas as features of that thing!! Instead, of course, a citta is merely an act of discernment, a function/operation, and the accompanying cetasikas are different functions associated with the same object as that discernment. Your making this point is very helpful to me! ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > It can even grow to the degree of understanding all dhammas > > > perfectly - such as the panna of a sammasamBuddha. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > That's fine. My question is: "By what means?". (It is, after > all, not > > nibbana, not the supermundane reality which transcends the triple > world, but, > > rather, a feature of a citta.) *How* does it grow beyond all limits? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Robert: Nibbana can know nothing. > Panna is nama thus it is not bound in the way rupa (matter) is. > Wisdom grows if the conditions are right. The conditions for the > growth of wisdom are elaboarted in the texts. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is all fine. My only hesitance here is with regard to wisdom *directly* knowing what no longer exists, as opposed to a memory of it. ------------------------------------------------------------ > ___________ > > > > > Because it is not a predominant dhamma (except in the truly wise - > > > > the ariya puggala) we tend to have conceptions (some right some > > > wrong) about its nature. Panna, of a level, is present even now > when > > > we reflect correctly about the deeper aspects of Dhamma; and is > > > present, at another level, when there is genuine direct insight > into > > > the characteristic of a dhamma: but it is not yet a power (bala) > and > > > so its characteristic may be hard to discern. > > > I don't know if this helps. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > It helps a lot, Robert, but, in the process, leads to ever > more > > questions! ;-)) > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > best wishes > robert > > ============================== With metta and appreciation, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7347 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 8:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? / Bud... Dear Kom, Howard an Jon, This is extremely interesting. Kom, 'fermentations' or 'taints' here is from 'aasavas', one definition of which is 'ideas which intoxicate the mind'. Jon has often stated that the 8-(or5-)fold path refers exclusively to moments on the brink of awakening (my apologies, Jon, if I've mis-paraphrased you). It's obvious from reading the discourses (and the discipline) that the Buddha sometimes spoke of thought, speech and action leading to happy rebirths (e.g. the divine abodes) and other times of thought, (sometimes with and sometimes without) speech and action leading to unbinding--I say obvious because he stated so explicitly. (By the way, there's one discourse in which the Buddha chides Ananda (I think) for having taught the divine abodes to a dying person who could have attained enlightenment before death had he taught the path instead--anyone remember where this is?) Anyway, the Great Forty seems to me to support Jon's position on this to some extent--not quite to the extent that the path-factors refer only to near-enlightenment, but certainly to the extent that there's a real and important difference between the factors with and without aasavas. The question remaining to me is, if the Buddha taught 'only dukkha and the way out of dukkha', then why did he teach kusala that doesn't lead to nibbana? Off-hand I'm inclined to think that, kusala that doesn't lead to nibbana mayabe leads to kusala that DOES lead to nibbana. Maybe. Another thought: The Buddha also taught, right through the discourses and the discipline, the (temporary) subduing of the defilements by various skilful reflections. Do you think there is a link between this sort of reflection and the path-factors-with-aasavas? mike --- Howard wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/01 3:00:17 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, Kom Tukovinit writes: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html > > > > The above sutta appears (to me) to imply the > separation of > > the "conventional" practices that are kusala (but > results in rebirth), and > > the practice that leads to the cessation of > suffering. When I read the > > teachings about the "path factor without taints", > it appears to match the > > teachings about the path factors as being > supramundane factors at the > > moment of enlightenment. The implication may also > extend to cover the > > teaching of the 5-fold path, ie., satipatthana > which is mundane. > > > > kom > > > =============================== > Thank you for this. It is an interesting > sutta! What it does for the > most part is, for each of the factors of the > eightfold path, give a > description of that factor "with fermentations", and > also "without > fermentations". An example is the following: > "And what is right action? Right action, I > tell you, is of two sorts: > There is right action with fermentations, siding > with merit, resulting in the > acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right > action, without > fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > "And what is the right > action that has fermentations, sides with merit, & > results in acquisitions? > Abstaining from killing, from taking what is not > given, & from illicit sex. > This is the right action that has fermentations, > sides with merit, & results > in acquisitions. "And what is the right action that > is without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path? The abstaining, > desisting, abstinence, > avoidance of the three forms of bodily misconduct in > one developing the noble > path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without > fermentations, who is fully > possessed of the noble path. This is the right > action that is without > fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." > Thus, what seems to be said is that each of > the 8 factors of the path > becomes "without fermentations" when it is carried > out by "... one developing > the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is > without fermentations, who > is fully possessed of the noble path." The > difference seems to be the state > of the mind involved rather than the factor, itself. > I'm not sure what is the > significance of this. 7348 From: Joshua Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 10:38am Subject: Re: Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana > I would say yes, the whole Canon, including the commentaries. I say this > because it is easy to read individual suttas, or event the whole Canon for > that matter, and find 'support' for just about any way of practice. > In the Canon itself there are stories & examples of very simple instructions given to people and, when carried out, lead to Arahantship. I doubt each and every disciple sat for hours on end listening to thousands upon thousands of discourses. He might croak before it was all finished! > In the case of the article below, there are several passages which contain > statements, inferences or assumptions that are not supported by the > ancient commentators, Could you give some examples? 7349 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 4:16pm Subject: Fwd: Re: Necessity of jhana --- <> wrote: On the question of the neccesity for jhana. There are mundane jhanas and there are supramundane jhanas. While mundane jhana can be a basis for insight in the samatttha yanika the mundane and supramundane are not the same. I use The expositor PTS (translator, pe maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth"ENDQUOTE It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusalaThere is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of mundane Jhanas. The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. This is different from other types of kusala as it leads to dispersion , to tearing down the fence. The Discourse on lokuttara (trancendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momenatry flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes. ENDQUOTE. The moral consciouseness of the three planes includes many types of kusala including all the eight mundane jhanas. . It is true that even for the dry insight worker (sukkha vipassaka) that jhana is attained at the moment of commprehending nibbana but this is only for a flash. It is different from mundane jhana. robert --- End forwarded message --- 7350 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 4:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Dear Sarah, Gayan invited me to join this group. Well, it is very interesting isn't it to talk of this beautiful dhamma - the real fruits with value. Yes, I am from Sri Lanka too. I stay in Moratuwa and working in the areas of ASP/Java/Site Server..etc. (Any other thing you want to know Gayan ;-)) ). Thank all for the welcome and specially Gayan for inviting me. ~metha Ranil >From: Sarah Procter Abbott >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:16:01 +0800 (CST) > >Dear Ranil, > >Many thanks for joining us here and for posting these words of wisdom! > 7351 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 4:34pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science -- Dear Howard, I got to an internet cafe, couldn't stay away. - Howard wrote: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, thanks. This strikes me as implying that wisdom can *directly* > observe a past event. Surprising, but, hey - maybe! ;-) > ------------------------------------------------------- Robert: I think we can understand its directness because in moments of direct insight there doesn't have to be any conceptualising or thinking. There is understanding before words ______ > > > Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no > > > > understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after > > these. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: > > > Again, does that understanding directly apprehend what no > > longer > > > exists? (If yes, this is reminiscent of the Sarvastivadin view of > > dhammas > > > existing at all times.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Robert: Can you accept that at a moment when greed takes an object > > there can be no understanding but that the greed can be seen > > (immediately after it falls away) by panna? If we see that this is > > just the way it is (in practice)these doubts will fade. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I can accept that. But my expectation would be that the "seeing" > of the greed which is no longer there is really the seeing of a *fresh > memory* of the greed, the knowing that the greed *was* just there, rather > than a direct knowing of the no-longer-existing greed, itself. (Of course, > you did imply before that wisdom can somehow *directly* observe a past event, > and maybe that is so.) > -------------------------------------------------------------- Robert: That is pretty much it, I think. If you speak with Acharn sujin about this she would be able to explain that wisdom is so weak before the first stage of vipassana (when nama and rupa are truly percieved) that one just tries to comprehend in words what has to be properly seen for oneself. At those moments the doorways are seen as they are - separate,. And then no doubt. > > > > > Howard: > > > Am I correct in understanding the Abhidhamma view of panna > > to be that > > > of a function accompanying a given mind-moment/citta, and being an > > aspect of > > > it? If yes, does it go beyond that citta by some means other than > > memory? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Robert: Panna is a cetasika and is ENTIRELY different from citta. > > However, it arises always in association with citta. Sanna > > (perception, memory) is likewise different from citta and panna. > > Because these three very different realities have some > > characteristics that are similar - they all know an object - they are > > often confused. For example, very often people experience some subtle > > sensations in the body after they begin meditation. They assume that > > this is wisdom(panna) that is knowing it while such things can all be > > known by citta and sanna not associated with panna. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Thank you very much for emphasizing this! I fear I was falling into a > substantialist way of thinking, viewing a citta as a "thing" existing for a > period of time, with the accompanying cetasikas as features of that thing!! > Instead, of course, a citta is merely an act of discernment, a > function/operation, and the accompanying cetasikas are different functions > associated with the same object as that discernment. Your making this point > is very helpful to me! > ----------------------------------------------------------- And thank you Howard. These questions are most difficult. As I've indicated we reach a point where to go further takes the development of direct insight. But if we don't discuss to this point then we might make assumptions that hinder the direct insight. The advantage of knowing the details of the Abhidhamma is that it removes many of the coarse views. I have a feeling you will come back to this matter again (sooner or later) and that is good. We learn to look at the same problem in different ways, we see the neccesity of considering the Dhamma and also the limitations. It should encourage the testing and study of these matters directly - it is all here now to be insighted best wishes robert 7352 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 11:44pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Dear Howard And Robert How are you? At first, I thought I would just follow your discussion. But, now, I decided to enter the fray. Howard wrote: "But what seems most important here is the question of whether the wisdom of a current citta is able to *directly* know what goes beyond that citta." " Okay, thanks. This strikes me as implying that wisdom can *directly* observe a past event. Surprising, but, hey - maybe!;-)" Howard also wrote: " This is all fine. My only hesitance here is with regard to wisdom *directly* knowing what no longer exists, as opposed to a memory of it." Here is my bit of discussion. When wisdom reaches the stage of awakening (bodhi, magga nyana, phala nyana), it directly knows, penetrates, realizes and sees nibbana. If you can accept this capability of wisdom, you are ready to drop yor resistance to accepting wisdom's direct knowledge of a past event. As you might know very well, nibbana is timeless, and outside the three timeframes of past, present and future. Well, as wisdom directly knows nibbana, it directly knows timelessness. In other words, wisdom can directly knows any timeframe. Wisdom isn't bound by the time constraints. Howard also asked: "Am I correct in understanding the Abhidhamma view of panna to be that of a function accompanying a given mind-moment/citta, and being an aspect of it? If yes, does it go beyond that citta by some means other than memory?" Suan answers: Yes, wisdom goes beyond the accompanying citta by means of its capability of directly knowing the phenomena regardless of their timeframes. Hope this message helps you drop your hesitance with regard to wisdom's power to know directly a past event. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > I shall attempt some snipping of the following in order to zero-in on > the gist of the current conversation. > > <> writes: > > > > . But what > > > seems most important here is the question of whether the wisdom of > > a current > > > citta is able to *directly* know what goes beyond that citta. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Robert: It is known directly . I do remember reading a tika years ago > > that went into a degree of detail about this but look as i may have > > not been able to find it. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, thanks. This strikes me as implying that wisdom can *directly* > observe a past event. Surprising, but, hey - maybe! ;-) > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Also at the exact moments of seeing or hearing there is no > > > > understanding - but understanding (can) arise immediately after > > these. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Howard: > > > Again, does that understanding directly apprehend what no > > longer > > > exists? (If yes, this is reminiscent of the Sarvastivadin view of > > dhammas > > > existing at all times.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Robert: Can you accept that at a moment when greed takes an object > > there can be no understanding but that the greed can be seen > > (immediately after it falls away) by panna? If we see that this is > > just the way it is (in practice)these doubts will fade. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I can accept that. But my expectation would be that the "seeing" > of the greed which is no longer there is really the seeing of a *fresh > memory* of the greed, the knowing that the greed *was* just there, rather > than a direct knowing of the no-longer-existing greed, itself. (Of course, > you did imply before that wisdom can somehow *directly* observe a past event, > and maybe that is so.) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Howard: > > > Am I correct in understanding the Abhidhamma view of panna > > to be that > > > of a function accompanying a given mind-moment/citta, and being an > > aspect of > > > it? If yes, does it go beyond that citta by some means other than > > memory? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Robert: Panna is a cetasika and is ENTIRELY different from citta. > > However, it arises always in association with citta. Sanna > > (perception, memory) is likewise different from citta and panna. > > Because these three very different realities have some > > characteristics that are similar - they all know an object - they are > > often confused. For example, very often people experience some subtle > > sensations in the body after they begin meditation. They assume that > > this is wisdom(panna) that is knowing it while such things can all be > > known by citta and sanna not associated with panna. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Thank you very much for emphasizing this! I fear I was falling into a > substantialist way of thinking, viewing a citta as a "thing" existing for a > period of time, with the accompanying cetasikas as features of that thing!! > Instead, of course, a citta is merely an act of discernment, a > function/operation, and the accompanying cetasikas are different functions > associated with the same object as that discernment. Your making this point > is very helpful to me! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > It can even grow to the degree of understanding all dhammas > > > > perfectly - such as the panna of a sammasamBuddha. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > That's fine. My question is: "By what means?". (It is, after > > all, not > > > nibbana, not the supermundane reality which transcends the triple > > world, but, > > > rather, a feature of a citta.) *How* does it grow beyond all limits? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Robert: Nibbana can know nothing. > > Panna is nama thus it is not bound in the way rupa (matter) is. > > Wisdom grows if the conditions are right. The conditions for the > > growth of wisdom are elaboarted in the texts. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is all fine. My only hesitance here is with regard to wisdom > *directly* knowing what no longer exists, as opposed to a memory of it. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ___________ > > > > > > > Because it is not a predominant dhamma (except in the truly wise - > > > > > > the ariya puggala) we tend to have conceptions (some right some > > > > wrong) about its nature. Panna, of a level, is present even now > > when > > > > we reflect correctly about the deeper aspects of Dhamma; and is > > > > present, at another level, when there is genuine direct insight > > into > > > > the characteristic of a dhamma: but it is not yet a power (bala) > > and > > > > so its characteristic may be hard to discern. > > > > I don't know if this helps. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > It helps a lot, Robert, but, in the process, leads to ever > > more > > > questions! ;-)) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > best wishes > > robert > > > > > ============================== > With metta and appreciation, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 7353 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 3:21am Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... > For sure volition is conditioned. All dhammas other than nibbana are > conditioned. If something were to arise without conditions, then its arising > would be random. Dear All, Determinism is not a Buddhist doctrine. Determinism was the key tenet of another school, the Ajivikas, founded by Goshala, who died in 488 B.C. (A. K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, p. 40). Derek. 7354 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:31am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science --- <> wrote: > -- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Robert: Can you accept that at a moment when greed takes an > object > > > there can be no understanding but that the greed can be seen > > > (immediately after it falls away) by panna? If we see that this is > > > just the way it is (in practice)these doubts will fade. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Yes, I can accept that. But my expectation would be that > the "seeing" > > of the greed which is no longer there is really the seeing of a *fresh > > memory* of the greed, the knowing that the greed *was* just there, > rather > > than a direct knowing of the no-longer-existing greed, itself. (Of > course, > > you did imply before that wisdom can somehow *directly* observe a > past event, > > and maybe that is so.) > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Robert: That is pretty much it, I think. If you speak with Acharn sujin > about this she would be able to explain that wisdom is so weak before > the first stage of vipassana (when nama and rupa are truly percieved) > that one just tries to comprehend in words what has to be properly seen > for oneself. At those moments the doorways are seen as they are - > separate,. And then no doubt. > > > ______ Dear Howard, I pondered a little more. I remember several years back A. Sujin told me a little about the moments of vipassana nana. I can only remember a little. She said that now (without vipassana nana) the sense door process such as seeing and the mind door process aren't sen as they really are, they are mixed up , confused. At vipassana nana the mindoor process is known as it is and so the difference between nama and rupa is clear. During a sense door process the rupa that is object lasts for 17 moments of citta (the time it takes for a complet process) and thus at advanced levesl of vipassana the next process can know directly the falling away of the prior one. It is happening so fast and there could be know choosing of which object the panna knows. It is not anyone knowing it but simply developed panna arising that performs its function during these moments. In the arupa Brahma planes there can be no vipassana development because there is no rupa so that the difference between nama and rupa cannot be seen. (if someone is already a sotapanna and was born there this may be different) 7355 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 8:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... Dear Derek You see my friend I try hard to behave myself but what else can I say after a message like this: I do love you, you are my hero! If you become a monk promise I will bow to you three times, special privilege because even to Bhikkhu Boddhi I bowed only one time and naturally he said me to don't be silly and stop it right away. Thank you, sadhu, sadhu, sadhu!!!!! Love Cybele >From: "Derek Cameron" >Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is >controllable? (was kusa... >Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:21:05 -0000 > > > For sure volition is conditioned. All dhammas other than >nibbana are > > conditioned. If something were to arise without conditions, then >its arising > > would be random. > >Dear All, > >Determinism is not a Buddhist doctrine. Determinism was the key tenet >of another school, the Ajivikas, founded by Goshala, who died in 488 >B.C. (A. K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, p. 40). > >Derek. > > > > 7356 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 9:18am Subject: Re: Right View leads to Right Practice (was: Regarding Parinibbana and ...) Dear Friends, > Thanks. I knew I was avoiding something: more practice. I am not directing this message at anyone: I am only hoping for this as a reminder. In: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html (my most favorite sutta recently!), the Buddha stressed that "right view is the forerunner". Without the right view and depending on our accumulation, we may be doing many kinds of wrong practices that would lead us only to more sufferings, and if they are wrong enough, would even lead us to the bad destinations. Knowing what is wholesome (kusala, and/or leading to the path) and what is unwholesome (akusala) can be very subtle. Take gift (dana) for example. Do we think any kind of gifts for any reasons are actions based on kusala? Do we know that gifts that are not useful are not gifts? For example, pornorgraphy and sexual favors cannot be considered gifts. If we do not study in details about what the Buddha has taught, then we may mistake what is not to be what is. If dana is hard to differentiate, I think higher kusala, such as Tranquil (samatha) meditation, is even harder. The Buddha teaches that wrong concentration (micha-samathi) is possible. Do we know what wrong concentration is? Is concentration associated with reading (a concentration I am sure everybody has, especially if they have gotten this far!) kusala or akusala? How about focusing on an object? Without knowing the basic differences between the characteristics of kusala conciousness and akusala conciousness, then it will be impossible to develop tranquil meditation. If our concentration on a single object turns out to be based on attachment (lobha which is unwholesome) instead of on kusala, then we would be adding to the latent tendencies for lobha and all its associated akusala factors instead of developing kusala--- this definitely wouldn't lead to the happy abode in this life or happy destination in next life, and it wouldn't help our goal of the path. All kusala consciousness has lobha consciousness as it near enemy: they share many similar characteristics and factors including concentration (samathi), indifferent feeling (upekkha) or happy feeling (somanassa), rapture (piti), and a few others. It is easy to mistake what is akusala as kusala. Right view leads to the right practice, but wrong practice will not lead to the right view. We are fortunate indeed to be born in a world where the right views are still taught. I hope everybody is "taking advantage" of the teachings. kom 7357 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was ... Hi, Derek - > > For sure volition is conditioned. All dhammas other than > nibbana are > > conditioned. If something were to arise without conditions, then > its arising > > would be random. > > Dear All, > > Determinism is not a Buddhist doctrine. Determinism was the key tenet > of another school, the Ajivikas, founded by Goshala, who died in 488 > B.C. (A. K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, p. 40). > > Derek. > ============================ And what is your point? Nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma. All others arise as the result causes and conditions. Are you claiming that free will consists in doing something based on absolutely nothing, without cause or condition, an instance of pure randomness? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7358 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/11/01 7:32:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Dear Howard, > I pondered a little more. I remember several years back A. Sujin told > me a little about the moments of vipassana nana. > I can only remember a little. She said that now (without vipassana > nana) the sense door process such as seeing and the mind door process > aren't sen as they really are, they are mixed up , confused. At vipassana > nana the mindoor process is known as it is and so the difference > between nama and rupa is clear. During a sense door process the rupa > that is object lasts for 17 moments of citta (the time it takes for a > complet process) and thus at advanced levesl of vipassana the next > process can know directly the falling away of the prior one. It is > happening so fast and there could be know choosing of which object the > panna knows. It is not anyone knowing it but simply developed panna > arising that performs its function during these moments. > In the arupa Brahma planes there can be no vipassana development > because there is no rupa so that the difference between nama and rupa > cannot be seen. (if someone is already a sotapanna and was born there > this may be different) > > =============================== Thanks for this, Robert. I'm having a little trouble grasping what you are saying here. The crux of it, and where most of my "trouble" lies is with: "During a sense door process the rupa that is object lasts for 17 moments of citta (the time it takes for a complet process) and thus at advanced levesl of vipassana the next process can know directly the falling away of the prior one." Could you please say some more here, clarifying it and expanding on it a bit. I'm afraid I'm being a bit dense here, and that's a shame, because it seems to me that this could be important. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7359 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was ... Hi again, Derek - In a message dated 8/11/01 11:05:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Hi, Derek - > > > > > > For sure volition is conditioned. All dhammas other than > > nibbana are > > > conditioned. If something were to arise without conditions, then > > its arising > > > would be random. > > > > Dear All, > > > > Determinism is not a Buddhist doctrine. Determinism was the key tenet > > of another school, the Ajivikas, founded by Goshala, who died in 488 > > B.C. (A. K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, p. 40). > > > > Derek. > > > ============================ > And what is your point? > Nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma. All others arise as the > result causes and conditions. Are you claiming that free will consists in > doing something based on absolutely nothing, without cause or condition, an > instance of pure randomness? > =============================== I'm afraid I was a a little flip with my answer here. Let me explain further. Suppose I were to say to someone: "I'm going to have a bite to eat now", expressing an intention. And suppose the other person were to ask me "Why are you going to eat now?" I might then answer: "Well, I'm hungry, and I have some free time now, and there is nothing more urgent for me to do, and being hungry is unpleasant, and eating removes the hunger, and so on and so forth, ... and so, I'll grab a bite to eat now." The point is: Yes, I'm exercising volition, but for a variety of reasons. My volition is not uncaused. Yet it *is* a matter of volition. Is this determinism or fatalism? I don't think so. Neither is it an absence of conditionality. As usual, it is "in the middle". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7360 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 11:30am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > =============================== > Thanks for this, Robert. I'm having a little trouble grasping what you > are saying here. The crux of it, and where most of my "trouble" lies is with: > "During a sense door process the rupa that is object lasts for 17 moments of > citta (the time it takes for a complet process) and thus at advanced levesl > of vipassana the next process can know directly the falling away of the prior > one." Could you please say some more here, clarifying it and expanding on it > a bit. I'm afraid I'm being a bit dense here, and that's a shame, because it > seems to me that this could be important. > > With metta, > Howard __________ Howard, The denseness is all mine! It is because I forget some of what Sujin told me. I did record it (we were on a trip to Hua Huin about 7 years ago, I remember the situation well)and I know it was exceedingly profound but I think the tape is up in japan. leave it with me though and I am sure some thoughts will occur sooner or later.Nina would also understand this matter far better than me. The crux of the biscuit, as Herman would say, is that it becomes vividly clear at vipassana nana. The factors of the eighfold (fivefold)path are becoming strong at this time. Samadhi is present to 'fix', momentarily on the objects so that panna can insight. I sometimes feel that talking about these advanced stages of insight is not beneficial in that we might try to fit our 'experience' into what we have heard. But since you have doubts on these points, and doubts can hinder progress(especially if you turned away from Abhidhamma), it is worth discussing. kind regards robert > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7361 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Hi, Robert - In a message dated 8/11/01 11:32:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Kirkpatrick writes: > Howard, > The denseness is all mine! It is because I forget some of what Sujin > told me. I did record it (we were on a trip to Hua Huin about 7 years > ago, I remember the situation well)and I know it was exceedingly > profound but I think the tape is up in japan. leave it with me though > and I am sure some thoughts will occur sooner or later.Nina would > also understand this matter far better than me. > > The crux of the biscuit, as Herman would say, is that it becomes > vividly clear at vipassana nana. The factors of the eighfold > (fivefold)path are becoming strong at this time. Samadhi is present > to 'fix', momentarily on the objects so that panna can insight. > I sometimes feel that talking about these advanced stages of insight > is not beneficial in that we might try to fit our 'experience' into > what we have heard. But since you have doubts on these points, and > doubts can hinder progress(especially if you turned away from > Abhidhamma), it is worth discussing. > kind regards > robert > =========================== Again thank you. Whatever you can retrieve on this subject, by memory or tapes, or whatever, now or in the future, I would much appreciate hearing. This strikes me as crucially important material. (Oh, and BTW, the denseness is primarily with me, to be sure! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7362 From: Erik Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 4:56pm Subject: Re: Testing - Erik --- Cybele Chiodi wrote: > > Dear Sarah > > Don't count on prompty replies from Erik because he is > in a retreat in Angkor. And what a retreat it was! I thought the week before was seriously reality-bending, but this past few days takes the cake. Had anyone told me just a week ago I'd return to BKK with a new fiancee (not in tow, however), I'd have laughed them out of the room. > You know we 'meditators' enjoy 'refuging' in > monasteries... ;-))))) > > > > Yes, the real test of any insight into life and > > the 'realities' > > > which make up > > > > life has to be at this moment. > > > > > > Not so, Sarah! :) > > > > > > The REAL test is if the afflictions have been > > permanently terminated > > > or not. > > > > > > > Erik, what other time than this moment is there???> Back to the point: what other test is there than if the afflictions have been permanently terminated or not? I don't recall the Buddha EVER talking about "this moment" being the test! The point of the path is supramundane insight, because only with supramundane insight can the fetters be terminated once and for all. So the point then is parcticing techniques that create the conditions for this to arise. And what are those techniquies? None other than the Noble Eightfold Path: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html Any teaching that ignores ANY of these essentials limbs cannot be a teahing that leads to the end of dukkha, which is the entire point of the Buddhist path. I see little correspondence between "recognizing realities this moment" and what the Buddha actually taught in the Suttas as a pathway out of dukkha. For example, the Sammaditthi Sutta (the most detailed Sutta I've come across on the variations on Right View) doesn't anywhere mention Right View comes about by recognizing realities right this moment: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html Perhaps you or others here have some suttas I've missed on this point. I am happy to stand corrected on such a vital, life & death issue if I am wrong. On the other hand, if you find no references to such a teaching, getting this right still remains a matter of life & death. 7363 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... > If you become a monk promise I will bow to you three times Better watch out, Cybele! I might create an international scandal by bowing down to YOU! :-) Derek. 7364 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:37pm Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was ... Hi, Howard, > > Nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma. Well, as I've already said, I don't view nibbaana as a "thing." But that's another subject. > As usual, it is > "in the middle". Correct. Free-will is one extreme. Determininism is another. As to how it all works, I believe in the Acinteyya Sutta that Mike has already mentioned -- some things cannot be understood merely by thinking about them. They are acinteyya ("things not to be thought about"). Derek. 7365 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 8:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Testing - Erik Dear Erik, --- Erik wrote: > --- Cybele Chiodi > > Don't count on prompty replies from Erik because he is > > in a retreat in Angkor. We wondered when we read this...... > > And what a retreat it was! I thought the week before was seriously > reality-bending, but this past few days takes the cake. Had anyone > told me just a week ago I'd return to BKK with a new fiancee (not in > tow, however), I'd have laughed them out of the room. our wondering was confirmed!!.....no surprise to us at all, Erik!!! There are retreats and retreats! (catch you off-list). > > > You know we 'meditators' enjoy 'refuging' in > > monasteries... ;-))))) and not just in monasteries:-) > > > Erik, what other time than this moment is there???> > > I see little correspondence between "recognizing realities this > moment" and what the Buddha actually taught in the Suttas as a > pathway out of dukkha. > > For example, the Sammaditthi Sutta (the most detailed Sutta > I've come across on the variations on Right View) doesn't anywhere > mention Right View comes about by recognizing realities right this > moment: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > An excellent sutta. Erik, in this sutta, the Buddha talks about all kinds of realities to be understood directly. He makes the point that this is the way to end suffering/realize nibbana and it's understood that these realities can only be known when they appear. For example, intention to kill or reraining from unwholesome speech can only be known at those moments. If they don't appear now, they can't be known directly now. The realities are classified in different ways such as kusala (wholesome) and akusala (unwholesome) consciousness and mental factors. they are classified as the 5 khandhas, as nama and rupa, as the 6fold base etc. However they are classified, they point to the very same mental and physical phenomena that should be known as they are, as not-self. By understanding them thus over and over and over again, the unsatisfactoriness (suffering) of all conditioned realities eventually becomes apparent and the end of suffering is realized. These are not different strategies or techniques, but the description of the objects to be known by right understanding at this very moment. In other words the very 'practice' of the Teachings. Erik, this is a rushed post as I'm rather busy, but I'm glad to see you back;-)) You'll find one or two others waiting for you;-)) Sarah 7366 From: Derek Cameron Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: Testing - Erik Sarah, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > An excellent sutta. Erik, in this sutta, the Buddha talks No, it's Saariputta who does the talking. > about all kinds of > realities to be understood directly. The terminology of "all kinds of realities to be understood directly" is entirely foreign to the sutta. You're reading things into the text that aren't actually there. Derek. 7367 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 9:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Testing - Erik Derek, --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Sarah, > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > > > An excellent sutta. Erik, in this sutta, the Buddha talks > > No, it's Saariputta who does the talking. Thanks for this correction. > > > about all kinds of > > realities to be understood directly. > > The terminology of "all kinds of realities to be understood directly" > is entirely foreign to the sutta. You're reading things into the text > that aren't actually there. Look forward to more discussion. Perhaps you'd elaborate. Sarah 7368 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 9:57pm Subject: re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The meaning of Equanimity Anders --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > When you stare at them long enough, your fingers are actually quite > > > visually > > > interesting. :-) > > > > Yes, I think I know what you mean. Here's a question for you, Anders. > > What in your view/experience is happening at such moments, when the > > fingers become 'visually interesting'. Is this because of what is > > happening in the eye-door process, or in the mind-door process, > (assuming > > it's not changes in the finger!)? Is it kusala of some kind > > (understanding, perhaps) or is it akusala? > > Hmmm, good question. I don't think it's related much to understanding > really. That's for sure, although there's no reason why there could not be a level of understanding at such moments. Realities are appearing then, as at any time. > I think it's a combination of eye and mind response. Generally, > when your eyes loose focus or remain in focus on one object for an > extended > period of time, they tend to relax (at least for me) and I think this > may > result in visual sensations that are not normally experienced (since the > eyes rarely relax in that way) and thus the mind responds to this *new* > change, usually with fascination (the again, I can only speak for > myself). My biology is very weak but from a conventional perspective you are right here, as far as I know. > I'd say that from a Samatha perspective, it's kusala (not much, but a > little), but from the perspective of Vipassana, it's akusula. Perhaps you refer to the concentration aspect, when you say kusala from a samatha perspective? Concentration can be either kusala or akusala -- it is not intrinsically one or the other. Unless one knows by direct experience the characteristics of kusala and akusala, it would not be possible to say for sure in any particular case. However, we do know that only certain objects of concentration are conducive to calm (samatha). These include the body, in its repulsive aspect(!). Happy finger-watching! Jon 7369 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 10:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] The only way? Herman --- Herman wrote: > Hi all, > > Recently there has been good discussion about the methods/paths to > nibbana. One of the, so far unanswered, questions was whether there > was a path presribed that was THE ONLY WAY. > > In my general browsing I chanced upon the following. Sorry for > quoting the whole section, but it shows how in a particular instance > multiple views were allowed without admonition or correction. Thanks for bringing up this sutta. But I'm not sure that the Buddha here is speaking approvingly of other views. I read him as saying that whatever view a person holds (be it right or wrong), it makes sense to develop kusala. But it is certainly unusual in that he does not speak disapprovingly of the wrong views mentioned. Jon > Kalama Sutta: > > (The Four Solaces) > 17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate- > free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such > a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now. > > "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds > done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the > body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is > possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by > him. > > "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of > deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from > hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' > This is the second solace found by him. > > "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of > doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no > evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. > > "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see > myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. > > "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free > mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a > purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are > found." > > "So it is, Blessed One. So it is, Sublime one. The disciple of the > Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate-free mind, such a > malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, > is one by whom, here and now, four solaces are found. > > "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds > done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the > body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is > possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by > him. > > "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of > deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from > hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' > This is the second solace found by him. > > "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of > doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no > evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. > > "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see > myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. > > "The disciple of the Noble Ones, venerable sir, who has such a hate- > free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such > a purified mind, is one by whom, here and now, these four solaces are > found. > > > With Metta > > > Herman > > 7370 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 10:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? Anders --- Anders Honoré wrote: > > > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference to 'making a > wish' > > might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. > > My guess would be that as long as you follow the path of practise, it is > irrelevant if you have desire (or are wishing) for liberation and > Nibbana. That would make sense, but for the fact that the passage (which I don't have handy for this reply) begins with the words: 'If a monk endowed with [the eightfold path factors] follows the holy life ... [with or wothout having made a wish etc] ... he is capable of obtaining results." It ends by saying "Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining results". If a monk is endowed with the eightfold path factors, there is no question of him *not* following the holy life; he has already obtained results, I would have thought. Any other thoughts, anyone? Jon 7371 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 10:36pm Subject: rapidity of the processes Dear friends, just a few thoughts on the rapidity of the processes. Seeing and remembrance of concepts of what we see, it all goes so fast. Khun Sujin explained that when we are reading, we translate colours into letters, sentences, meaning. It goes on by conditions. The late Alan Driver once wrote to me: Sati has to study with awareness the characteristic of visible object whioch appears, until one knows clearly that what appears through eyes is only colour. Khun Sujin said that if it is not in this way one cannot detach from the inclination to take realities for self, being, person. Khun Sujin said: <...The moment you translate is different from the moment you begin to study and understand that there is a reality which appears through the eyes... Knowing that what was seen is this or that thing, this or that person, it is a type of nama... There must be a reality that knows the meaning of sound which appeared through the ears, there are different namas experiencing objects through different doorways... When we know it is nama it means it is not self. When we know it is rupa, it means it is not self. > Seeing passes away so rapidly, but it can be studied with awareness. It arises again and again, very soon after it has disappeared and then there are opportunities to study it again and again, and in this way understanding of it is accumulated, but, very, very gradually. Nina. 7372 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 10:36pm Subject: the object of citta Dear Eric, Howard and all, Eric wrote: >Rather than talk about abstract notions like cittas (and until you have had DIRECT experience of a citta, please don't come back to me with this "paramattha dhammas" business--cittas are WAY too abstract an concept before such direct experience of them; who but a Buddha or nearly a Buddha directly discern the billionth of a second of awareness each citta represents? Nina: I can very well understand that for several people it is difficult to understand what citta is. Since it falls away extremely rapidly, it seems impossible to grasp it. It seems an abstract notion, like all the other categories described in the Abhidhamma. However, would the Buddha speak about paramattha dhammas, not only described in the Abhidhamma, but also in the Vinaya and Suttanta, if their characteristics could not be experienced, even now while we are beginning to develop understanding? As Sarah wrote : end quote. Nina: We can find out that seeing is an experience, citta, experiencing what appears through the eyes, and that hearing is another experience, citta experiencing what appears through the ears. They are dependent on different sense-bases and experience different objects. We read in the ³Middle Length Sayings²(I, 38, Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving) that the Buddha explained to Såti, a fisherman¹s son, who thought that there was one lasting consciousness: ³It is good, monks, it is good that you understand thus Dhamma taught by me to you, monks. For in many a figure has consciousness generated by conditions been spoken of by me to you, monks, saying: ŒApart from conditon there is no origination of consciousness.² ... It is because, monks, an appropriate condiiton arises that consciousness is known by this or that name: if consciousness arises because of eye and visible object, it is known as seeing-consciousness; if consciousness arises because of ear and sounds it is known as hearing-consciousness... The same has been explained on account of the other sense-doors and the mind-door. Here we see that there is Abhidhamma in the sutta, and there are many such examples all over the Suttanta. When I had in the beginning doubts about the Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin said, find out what is in it. We have to find out ourselves by beginning to consider the realities in daily life, that is the only way. Different fields of science, study of the history of the texts, or neuro-psychological science about consciousness that experiences one object could not eliminate doubts about the teachings. I do not deny the benefit of science, but through science the defilements of wrong view and doubt about the truth could never be eradicated. Only understanding, paññå, that begins to verify characteristics of realities as they appear through the six doors can eventually eradicate doubt and wrong view. I used to find it difficult to prove that citta can know only one object at a time. Khun Sujin asked me, can you think of two things at a time? We have to verify this ourselves. As Robert K. explained, paññå can know an object such as greed that has just fallen away. I can understand that people find it difficult to grasp how what has fallen away can be an object of paññå in vipassanå. As Kom explained, there are sense-door processes and mind-door processes arising one after the other very rapidly. When sati arises it can be mindful of a characteristic of reality that appears. What does this mean, a characteristic that appears? What is characteristic, and what does appearing mean? Seeing has one characteristic, hearing has another characteristic, hardness has another characteristic. A characteristic manifests itself, we do not have to think about it, it can be experienced. We do not have to do anything special, we do not have to think, is this a fresh memory of what appeared? Thus, we can know that there are different objects each with their own distinct nature or characteristic. Kom, in his explanation of processes of cittas, uses the word sabhava, sa means: with, and bhava means nature. Even when we begin to develop understanding of realities, thus, even when a stage of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa, has not arisen yet, the characteristics of greed or hardness appear. We do not have to calculate how many cittas have fallen away, but we should consider: do these different characteristics manifest themselves or not? As Robert K. explained, greed or seeing have just fallen away, but their characteristics appear. They have only just fallen away, cittas arise and fall away with tremendous speed. An example: sound is experienced through the ear-door and after that through the mind-door, but the mind-door process of cittas, after bhavanga-cittas, arises so rapidly after that, that we still seem to ³hear². Now I quote a passgae from Khun Sujin¹s Cambodian lectures: End quote. Nina. 7373 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 6:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samatha-Vipassana Hi, Anders - In a message dated 8/7/01 10:51:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Howard writes: > Hi, Anders - > > In a message dated 8/5/01 1:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > cybele chiodi writes: > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > > bubble > > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, > a > > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > That part is readily understandable, but how much do you make of the Sutra > > in its entirety? > > > ======================= > I'm on my way to work. I will get back to you on this. > > With metta, > Howard > > ================================ If you would like to post parts of that sutra so that we and others might discuss it from various vantage points, especially that of Theravada, I would be very happy to participate. (David Kalupahana, an academic who is a Theravadin is much appreciative of this sutra and others from the Perfcion of Wisdom writings.) Mainly, I see this sutra as expressing the emptiness/lack of separate identity/lack of esential existence in all dhammas, and most glaringly in those only apprehendable via concept, saying in each case that an X is really no X, and that is why it is *called* an X. For example, there is the following snippet I just took from one translation I picked off the net: "Subhuti, the so-called Buddhas and Dharmas are not real Buddhas and Dharmas. 'Subhuti, what do you think? Can one who has entered the stream (srota-apanna) have this thought (in his mind): I have obtained the fruit of entering the stream?' Subhuti replied: 'No, World Honoured One. Why? Because srota-apanna means 'entering the stream', but actually there is no entry into either form, sound, smell, taste, touch or dharma. Therefore, he is called srota-apanna.' 'Subhuti, what do you think? Can a Sakrdagamin have this thought (in his mind): I have obtained the fruit of a Sakrdagamin?' Subhuti replied: 'No, World Honoured One. Why? Because Sakrdagamin means „once more to come", but actually there is neither coming nor going. Therefore, he is called a Sakrdagamin.' 'Subhuti, what do you think? Can an Anagamin have this thought (in his mind): I have obtained the fruit of an Anagamin?' Subhuti replied: 'No, World Honoured One. Why? Because Anagamin means "no-coming" but actually there is no such a thing as no-coming. Therefore, he is called an Anagamin.' 'Subhuti, what do you think? Can an Arhat have this thought (in his mind): I have obtained the enlightenment of an Arhat?' Subhuti replied: 'No, World Honoured One. Why? Because there is no Dharma which is called Arhatship. World Honoured One, if an Arhat thinks "I have obtained the enlightenment of an Arhat", he will still grasp and hold on to the notion of an ego, a personality, a being and a life." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7374 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: Sex, desire, attachment (was: [DhammaStudyGroup] Erik saves my day ; it was Re: Rob E --- Robert Epstein wrote: > I think I understand what you are saying: that development of the path > involves > expansion of awareness and knowledge of what is really there in the > moment, and > that this is not a way of working out unwholesome tendencies, but a > separate > endeavor. Yes, if I understand you correctly. One is the development of the path. 'Working out' unwholesome tendencies is not the development of the path; it is usually driven by an idea of 'self'. > But what I have not gotten from this response is how you deal with the > akusula. > You say that you would like to have less, as a person, of lust or greed, > whatever > the akusula may be. Is this something that you work out, and if so how? Like you said, we deal with akusala with more akusala. Unless there's any kusala (don't reckon there is, though, in my case, except occasionally some useful reflection later). > Since we > agree that this is part of the foundation of the path, and that neither > suppression nor satisfaction of desire lessens the pull of desire, which > I would > think we would agree would tend to pull us from the path, what is the > proper way > of dealing with akusula to lessen its presence and its pull? Here we differ, perhaps. It is my understanding of the teachings that there is no need to deal with one's akusala in order to begin the development of the path. > I think that mindfulness of the experience of the akusula lessens its > pull. You > are saying that these are and should be separate issues. So what is > your answer > to attachment and desire? I can't do better that re-post here something that Mike wrote recently. He said -- "Tendencies and accumulations (what I think of as sankharakhanda) are fertile ground for mindfulness (dhammanusati(sp?)). Unfortunately they are the continuous results of incomprehensibly vast numbers of unimaginably complex conditions from the past--since we can't change the past, we also can't change the present manifestations of its conditions. "Fortunately, on the other hand, tendencies and accumulations CAN be understood as not-self--at that moment, 'personality' can be seen for the insignificant thing that it is. Having a rather rotten personality myself, I find this reflection quite liberating. (This isn't to say that kusala can't or shouldn't be cultivated despite personality--it can and should)." The accumulated akusala are so strong and entrenched that nothing we can 'do' can have any real effect. The only fix in the long run is the development of panna which can gradually attenuate and eventually eradicate completely and finally all traces of akusala. As Mike also pointed out in a lsubsequent post, when kusala has been developed to a certain level (power?), it can have the effect of subduing akusala -- "Another thought: The Buddha also taught, right through the discourses and the discipline, the (temporary) subduing of the defilements by various skilful reflections. This again is only a temporary fix. But we should not think that it is simply a matter of 'thinking kusala'. As I understand it, this refers to a high level of development of kusala. I hope this clarifies what I have been trying to say. Jon 7375 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Testing - Erik Hi, Erik - In a message dated 8/12/01 4:57:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Erik writes: > --- Cybele Chiodi > wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah > > > > Don't count on prompty replies from Erik because he is > > in a retreat in Angkor. > > And what a retreat it was! I thought the week before was seriously > reality-bending, but this past few days takes the cake. Had anyone > told me just a week ago I'd return to BKK with a new fiancee (not in > tow, however), I'd have laughed them out of the room. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: REALLY!! If you are serious - that is, not metaphorical in some way - then you have my heartiest congratulations!! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > You know we 'meditators' enjoy 'refuging' in > > monasteries... ;-))))) > > > > > > Yes, the real test of any insight into life and > > > the 'realities' > > > > which make up > > > > > life has to be at this moment. > > > > > > > > Not so, Sarah! :) > > > > > > > > The REAL test is if the afflictions have been > > > permanently terminated > > > > or not. > > > > > > > > > > Erik, what other time than this moment is there???> > > Back to the point: what other test is there than if the afflictions > have been permanently terminated or not? I don't recall the Buddha > EVER talking about "this moment" being the test! The point of the > path is supramundane insight, because only with supramundane insight > can the fetters be terminated once and for all. So the point then is > parcticing techniques that create the conditions for this to arise. > And what are those techniquies? None other than the Noble Eightfold > Path: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > Any teaching that ignores ANY of these essentials limbs cannot be a > teahing that leads to the end of dukkha, which is the entire point of > the Buddhist path. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am among the first to agree that the entire path, including Right Concentration, which the Buddha defined as the jhanas, is needed. However, I would also like to point out that nothing that happens in time happens at any time other than the present, for, as the Buddha pointed out, neither the past nor the future is existent. (Of course, the present doesn't remain for even an instant, and so there is an essential magical quality to time, a kind of unreality.) ------------------------------------------------------------ > > I see little correspondence between "recognizing realities this > moment" and what the Buddha actually taught in the Suttas as a > pathway out of dukkha. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't get your point here, Erik. No cultivation of the mind can occur at any time other than "now", no apprehending of the nature of anything can be done except "now". When else? What is gone is gone, though the effects remain. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > For example, the Sammaditthi Sutta (the most detailed Sutta > I've come across on the variations on Right View) doesn't anywhere > mention Right View comes about by recognizing realities right this > moment: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes certain things are not repeated in all contexts. Very few books on nutrition, for example, mention that in order for nutition to be effective, there is the requirement that the eater be alive at the time! ;-)) (Sorry to be flip! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps you or others here have some suttas I've missed on this > point. I am happy to stand corrected on such a vital, life & death > issue if I am wrong. On the other hand, if you find no references to > such a teaching, getting this right still remains a matter of life & > death. > =================================== Erik, I seem to be missing your point here. What is the positive assertion that you are making? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7376 From: Suan Lu Zaw Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 11:22pm Subject: Re: Gandhabba As Re-linking Consciousness: Three Events Coincide Dear Dhamma Study Friends How are you? I made an embarrassing typing error in my message 7323. The word with a typing error is "sammipethito". Please kindly change it to "samipethito". Apology for any inconvenience and misunderstanding. With regards Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org/ --- Suan Lu Zaw wrote: > > > Dear Dhamma Study Friends > > The following message (dhamma-list message 22247) is my reply > to John R Overman's message (dhamma-list message 22241). The subject > is a serious one. I thought you might find it useful, so I post it > here. > > Hope you enjoy it. > > Suan > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Dear John R Overman > > How are you? > > The Buddha's explanation is already complete and transparant. But, I > think you would like further comment on the translator's explanation > "gandhabba is not some disembodied spirit". By the way, this wasn't > actual wording in the MN commentary Pali. The commentary is merely > commenting on the expression "paccupatthito hoti" found in section > 408 of Mulapannasa, Majjimanikaya original. > > The expression "Paccupatthito hoti" can mean "is standing in front" > literally. But, this meaning does not apply to the re-linking > consciousness (patisandhi cittam)of the dead one. So the commentator > was forced to say the following. > > " Paccupatthito hotiti na matapitunam sannipatam olokayamano > sammipethito paccupatthito nama hoti." > > "Is standing in front" wasn't like "standing close-by (sammipethito) > while watching father and mother copulating". > > Now, the above Pali comment became "gandhabba is not some disembodied > spirit" in the hands of the translator, I think. > > In Pali Buddhism, the re-linking consciousness follows immediately > after the dying consciousness (cuti cittam). So when father and > mother are copulating while mother is ovulating, someone dies and his > re-linking consciounsess has a chance to conceive. All three events > coincide. That is all there is to it. The right timing is made > possible by the past actions of the father, mother and the embryo > (gandhabba now with body). > > Re-linking consciousness is called "gandhabbo" in ordinary language. > > I hope my message makes sense to you and all other dhamma friends. > > > With regards > > Suan Lu zaw > > > http://www.bodhiology.org/ > > > In MN38, Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, the last sentence of > paragraph 26, 7377 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was ... Hi, Derek = > Hi, Howard, > > > > Nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma. > > Well, as I've already said, I don't view nibbaana as a "thing." But > that's another subject. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the Buddha did refer to nibbana as a "dhamma". A dhamma, is, from my perspective, any possible element of experience, and that would include nibbana. I agree that nibbana is no "thing". But, for that matter, I don't believe in *any* separate, self-existent, independent "things". ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > As usual, it is > > "in the middle". > > Correct. Free-will is one extreme. Determininism is another. As to > how it all works, I believe in the Acinteyya Sutta that Mike has > already mentioned -- some things cannot be understood merely by > thinking about them. They are acinteyya ("things not to be thought > about"). > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, at least not too much! And certainly not to the point of obsession. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Derek. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7378 From: Howard Date: Sun Aug 12, 2001 7:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Testing - Erik Hi, Derek - > Sarah, > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > > > An excellent sutta. Erik, in this sutta, the Buddha talks > > No, it's Saariputta who does the talking. > > > about all kinds of > > realities to be understood directly. > > The terminology of "all kinds of realities to be understood directly" > is entirely foreign to the sutta. You're reading things into the text > that aren't actually there. > > Derek. > ================================ It is certainly so that this sutta doesn't speak in terms of "all kinds of realities to be understood directly". However, it does discuss Right View of such things as clinging, craving, feeling, contact, namarupa, discernment, formations, ignorance, taints etc., and throughout the suttas it is taught that wisdom with regard to these things is to be obtained by direct knowing, by vijja, and not by mere intellectualization. So what is bothersome in this terminolgy? Is it that it has the taste of Abhidhamma? ;-)) I must admit that I prefer the sutta approach, myself, and am a bit turned off by the hyper-formalism I see in Abhidhamma. But when something is factually correct, such as the need to see *directly*, the terminolgy needn't loom so large, don't you think? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7379 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... Dear Derek Actually I acknowledge that your action could be kusala certainly not because you would nourish my ego but to give a proper and fair outstanding public recognition to a a female buddhist practitioner and challenge solid, petrified 'official prejudices' justified by the so-called tradition that 'must' remain untouched. And so on the old, anachronistic mentality of 2500 years ago is still crushing down sincere aspirations in the women's buddhist world. How is it possible and sensible that the values of a mysoginist, archaic, patriarcal ancient Indian society and culture can still nowadays regulate the discipline code of modern women? I suppose we will continue being the evil creatures misleading the pure, honest, incorruptible males and good enough only for the kitchen and the bedroom. Food and procreation, shut up and behave yourself... It makes me feel sick...tedium vitae my friend, I am bored of the very same prejudices in different, subtle disguises. I make a vow to reach enlightenment as a female, forever reincarnating in this form till I attain deliverance. I feel really grateful that you are not between the oppressors. Love Cybele > > > If you become a monk promise I will bow to you three times > >Better watch out, Cybele! I might create an international scandal by >bowing down to YOU! :-) > >Derek. > 7380 From: m. nease Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 0:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] rapidity of the processes Dear Nina, Thanks for your generous posts (and for your excellent books, again). I'm afraid I'm not always able to understand them very clearly but maybe in time... --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: Sati has to study with awareness the characteristic of visible object which appears, until one knows clearly that what appears through eyes is only colour. -------------------- Where you write, 'until one knows clearly' what is the nature of this knowledge (since there's obviously no one knowing)? Is it conceptual understanding 'assembling' itself out of the memories of many recent instants of sati, or is it yet another instantaneous and conventionally unknowable moment? In other words, when 'sati studies with awareness the characteristic of visible object which appears', what accumulates as a result? Conceptual understanding (vitakka, I guess), or paññaa which can only be 'known' by other incomprehensively brief dhammas--or both, or neither? Sorry if this is too elementary or calls for repetition--and thanks in advance. mike 7381 From: Derek Cameron Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 1:47am Subject: Re: Testing - Erik Hi, Howard, > But when something is factually > correct, such as the need to see *directly*, the terminolgy > needn't loom so > large, don't you think? Well ... Ajahn Chah once told someone she was like a farmer who collected the chicken-droppings rather than the eggs. I think the difference is pretty large! ;-) Derek. 7382 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:56am Subject: Testing-Erik Erik wrote: > > > > > >SARAH: Yes, the real test of any insight into life and > > > the 'realities' > > > > which make up > > > > > life has to be at this moment. > > > > ______________________ ERIK: Not so, Sarah!....... ..... > > >I see little correspondence between "recognizing realities this > moment" and what the Buddha actually taught in the Suttas as a > pathway out of dukkha. . ________________ from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of MN 131, in the Middle Length Discourses (majjhima Nikaya): A Single Excellent Night Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes;.... ...Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, .. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, but one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night.ENDQUOTE robert 7383 From: Herman Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 8:22am Subject: Re: rapidity of the processes Nina, Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but to my limited understanding a person who dwelt in a realm of colours, hardnesses and softnesses, sounds, smells, tastes, coldness and warmness etc only, and makes no further associations and connections between these separate events, would be a completely dysfunctional person. The diagnosis would be along the lines of disassociative state. Is it incorrect to say that the process of combining information from separate events and so forming concepts, is the actual basis for insight and wisdom, and that the reverse process of deconstructing concepts into separate and non-related events would remove all foundations for wisdom and insight? Regards Herman --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, just a few thoughts on the rapidity of the processes. Seeing > and remembrance of concepts of what we see, it all goes so fast. Khun Sujin > explained that when we are reading, we translate colours into letters, > sentences, meaning. It goes on by conditions. The late Alan Driver once > wrote to me: > as the elements we translate into words and meanings are just sound, so, > through the eye-door, it is just colour, not the world of people and things. > We immediately translate colour into people and things and relate to them so > eagerly with all our defilements; what fears and promise our translated > world seems to hold for us. Yet, the original language is just rupa arising > and falling away by conditions, void of either threat or promise.> > > Sati has to study with awareness the characteristic of visible object whioch > appears, until one knows clearly that what appears through eyes is only > colour. Khun Sujin said that if it is not in this way one cannot detach from > the inclination to take realities for self, being, person. Khun Sujin said: > <...The moment you translate is different from the moment you begin to study > and understand that there is a reality which appears through the eyes... > Knowing that what was seen is this or that thing, this or that person, it is > a type of nama... There must be a reality that knows the meaning of sound > which appeared through the ears, there are different namas experiencing > objects through different doorways... When we know it is nama it means it is > not self. When we know it is rupa, it means it is not self. > > Seeing passes away so rapidly, but it can be studied with awareness. It > arises again and again, very soon after it has disappeared and then there > are opportunities to study it again and again, and in this way understanding > of it is accumulated, but, very, very gradually. > Nina. 7384 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:14am Subject: Re: Testing - Erik --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Erik - > Howard: > I am among the first to agree that the entire path, including Right > Concentration, which the Buddha defined as the jhanas, is needed. However, I > would also like to point out that nothing that happens in time happens at any > time other than the present, for, as the Buddha pointed out, neither the past > nor the future is existent. (Of course, the present doesn't remain for even > an instant, and so there is an essential magical quality to time, a kind of > unreality.) On this point we do not at all disagree, just to be perfectly clear. There IS no other moment than the present moment. HOWEVER, this is not what I was driving at. I don't recall seeing the Buddha teaching in those terms. This is not an issue of whether or not awareness--or for that matter, awakening--occur in the present moment. They MUST! Past & future are mere mental elaborations, constructs. So nowhere will you see me disagree with the notion that nothing, NOTHING, happens outside of the "present moment"! What I am specifically questioning is any METHODOLOGY that appears to get hung up on the "present moment" to the point of excluding the more convenmtional view of past, present, and future, of kusala and akusala, and more important, of directed PRACTICE. All of my objections are about pedagogy--strategic pedagogy. Any objections I raise here are not denying there is only this present moment because, let's face it, that's all there really is. But when there is no mention of anything BUT recognizing the present moment as a pathway out of dukkha, BIG objection. The Buddha didn't teach that way. The Buddha spoke of past, present, and future. The Buddha spoke of conventional realities arising and passing away. The Buddha taught practices like Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration ande all the other limbs of the Noble Eightfold Path. If I were to really get cooking and go all Prajnaparamita on everyone here, there are many who would no doubt accuse me of nihilism. In the Perfection of Wisdom there ulitmately isn't even past, or present, not to mention eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; no Buddha, not Path, no Path leading to cessation! There aren't even any suffering sentient beings at all! But who really understands that directly? We have to begin where we are, coming back to my earlier point. And where we are is a place where we are enmeshed in our confusion, stuck in our stories about the past and our expectations for the future. And we have to work with those as well. No amount of wishing to understand realty in the present moment can change this fact. Therefore, we need to work SKILLFULLY with our delusions of past and future, and to work SKILLFULLY with practices designed to finally snap the grip of our delusion abuot how things exist (and don't exist). What I question is just how skillful the strategy of "recognizing realities this moment" is as a means of doing that. That is, and alwyas has been the question I've had about this. It's pretty simple, I think. So again, no denial there is only now. But HOW to recognize that--REALLY recognize that? How do we get from point A (sufering sentient being) to point B (Buddha?). That is the MOST important question, in terms of putting the horse before the cart. Can we realize this by just talking about present moment? By just talking about paramattha dhammas? Or must there be, in addition to this, skillfully working with the conventional realities of sentient beings that perceive non-existent things like the past or future? The Buddha taught in just this way, if you read all his suttas. The Buddha spoke of past lives, and of future lives. The Buddha spoke of practices that exist at the purely conventional level, like cultivating Right Effort and Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. The Buddha, to the best of my knowledge, did NOT speak about ONLY recognizing realities in the present moment as a way out of dukkha, but taught a wide variety of skill-in-means approaches to bringing that understanding about directly. To recognize there is only reality in the present moment would be a FRUIT of these more boring, mundane practices. But then one wuold also recognize at the same time there are not now, nor have there ever been nor will there ever be sentient beings, the triple-realm, no suffering, no origin of suffering, no cessation of suffering, not even a path leading to the cessation of suffering! > Erik, I seem to be missing your point here. What is the positive > assertion that you are making? I hope the above clarifies my intent & meaning some more. Cheers, Erik 7385 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:19am Subject: Re: Testing - Erik --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Erik - > > In a message dated 8/12/01 4:57:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Erik writes: > > > > --- Cybele Chiodi > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sarah > > > > > > Don't count on prompty replies from Erik because he is > > > in a retreat in Angkor. > > > > And what a retreat it was! I thought the week before was seriously > > reality-bending, but this past few days takes the cake. Had anyone > > told me just a week ago I'd return to BKK with a new fiancee (not in > > tow, however), I'd have laughed them out of the room. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > REALLY!! If you are serious - that is, not metaphorical in some way - > then you have my heartiest congratulations!! > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, that was SERIOUS, as in NOT metaphorical! :) (though don't think for an instant that the metaphotrical dimension of this entire situation isn't far greater than the conventional reality of this, either :) :) :) 7386 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:21am Subject: Re: Testing-Erik --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > from Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of MN 131, in > the Middle Length Discourses (majjhima Nikaya): > > A Single Excellent Night > > Let not a person revive the past > Or on the future build his hopes;.... > > ...Instead with insight let him see > Each presently arisen state; > Let him know that and be sure of it, > .. > Today the effort must be made; > Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? > No bargain with Mortality > Can keep him and his hordes away, > but one who dwells thus ardently, > Relentlessly, by day, by night - > It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, > Who has had a single excellent night.ENDQUOTE Excellent indeed, Robert! Now, HOW do we go about doing this, precisely? 7387 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:52am Subject: Re: rapidity of the processes --- Herman wrote: > Nina, > > Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but to my limited understanding a > person who dwelt in a realm of colours, hardnesses and softnesses, > sounds, smells, tastes, coldness and warmness etc only, and makes no > further associations and connections between these separate events, > would be a completely dysfunctional person. The diagnosis would be > along the lines of disassociative state. I agree, Herman. This would indeed be a rather severe form of cognitive dysfunction (though dissociative may have other meanings). For example, anyone should have very legitimate concerns for the well- being of their five khandas if they were, say, riding in a car with one where these were the only forms of cognition happening at the moment! :) At most, the parctice of recognizing the Four Great Elements are mere strategies for helping us to understand the true nature of things, which serve as aids to increasing mindfulness and recognizing (even at the level of mundane insight) there is no intrinsic "self" behind things--to be practiced to the point where supramundane wisdom arises to terminate the fetters in a single flash. For example, by mindfully performing walking meditation and recognizing there is only hardness, cohesion, motility, etc.--we have a very time-tested way of breaking down notions there is an "I, me, mine", and, as such, this is a form of wisdom which leads eventually to release. At some point this directed mindfulness and concentration practice of deconstructing realities into their most elemental constituents is one way to bring about awakening to the reality there is no self behind things--which leads to the termination of the fundamental delusion of "I, me, mine." But to think even one who knows this directly (that there is no self) could possibly operate in this world free from conceptual categories would be a huge mistake. This would be a crazy assumptiopn even if one were speaking about a Buddha! How much more so about less developed beings! Can you imagine that the Buddha, for example, ONLY perceiving hardness, etc., and not also conventional notions of sentient beings, could have ever helped lead non-truly-existent sentient beings out of their delusions using something as mundane as conceptual categories such as "self"? 7388 From: Howard Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 6:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Testing - Erik Hi, Derek - > Hi, Howard, > > > But when something is factually > > correct, such as the need to see *directly*, the terminolgy > > needn't loom so > > large, don't you think? > > Well ... Ajahn Chah once told someone she was like a farmer who > collected the chicken-droppings rather than the eggs. I think the > difference is pretty large! ;-) > > Derek. > =========================== I'm a bit confused, Derek. Are you saying that someone on this list is, in your estimation, like the person characterized by Ajahn Chah? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 7389 From: Erik Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > I make a vow to reach enlightenment as a female, forever reincarnating in > this form till I attain deliverance. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! This is the very wish made by the revered Tibetan protectress, Drol-ma (Tara). She vowed to take birth as a woman as many times as it would take until reaching supreme enlightenment (Buddhahood) for the sake of all sentient beings! 7390 From: Cybele Chiodi Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusa... dear Erik > > Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! This is the very wish made by > the revered > Tibetan protectress, Drol-ma (Tara). She vowed to > take birth as a > woman as many times as it would take until reaching > supreme > enlightenment (Buddhahood) for the sake of all > sentient beings! > What else a Shakti is supposed to do, I am just accomplishing my kamma vipaka! :-) Thank you for the encouragement. Love Cybele 7391 From: Derek Cameron Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Testing - Erik Hi, Howard, > I'm a bit confused, Derek. Are you saying that someone on this list > is, in your estimation, like the person characterized by Ajahn Chah? He was talking about people who don't actually practice. But I think we already had the study vs practice discussion. Derek. 7392 From: Sarah Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Testing - Erik Dear Derek, I may be the dense one this time! Howard wrote (very eloquently I thought): ******************************* It is certainly so that this sutta doesn't speak in terms of "all kinds of realities to be understood directly". However, it does discuss Right View of such things as clinging, craving, feeling, contact, namarupa, discernment, formations, ignorance, taints etc., and throughout the suttas it is taught that wisdom with regard to these things is to be obtained by direct knowing, by vijja, and not by mere intellectualization. So what is bothersome in this terminolgy? Is it that it has the taste of Abhidhamma? ;-)) I must admit that I prefer the sutta approach, myself, and am a bit turned off by the hyper-formalism I see in Abhidhamma. But when something is factually correct, such as the need to see *directly*, the terminolgy needn't loom so large, don't you think? ************************************** further you both wrote, --- Derek Cameron wrote: > Hi, Howard, > > > I'm a bit confused, Derek. Are you saying that someone on > this list > > is, in your estimation, like the person characterized by Ajahn > Chah? > > He was talking about people who don't actually practice. But I think > we already had the study vs practice discussion. > My questions iare these: In what way is the explanation/summary I gave of the sutta (as explained by Howard above) indicative of a lack of practice (of the Buddha's Teachings)? What would be your understanding of the sutta which would be indicative of practice? When you refer to those who practice and those who don't, what is the Sutta term or the Pali for this kind of practice you refer to? Derek, I'm not meaning to be deliberately dense, but I really don't understand how your comments relate to the sutta raised by Erik or to my response. I am very glad you've raised them and hope you 'hang in' with us all here. Btw, I think we all find the Abhidhamma and its language difficult at times, but I really doubt that it's possible to translate Pali without some good understanding of it. You or Jim or Tadao may have comments about this too. Sarah 7393 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 3:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana Cybele Thanks for your comments. --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Jon > Dear Robert E. > > > > > Or is it the whole Canon.................... > > > >that matter, and find 'support' for just about any way of practice. > > > >In the case of the article below, there are several passages which > contain > >statements, inferences or assumptions that are not supported by the > >ancient commentators, so one might want to consider things carefully. > >Only by one's own study and investigation over a long period of time > can > >one learn to discriminate. > > > >Jon > > Indeed Jon, one can study, meditate and investigate our mind carefully > and > therefore learn to discriminate and don't be TOO attached only to the > ancient texts and commentaries but be openminded also to different > approaches and interpretations. I agree (I think). True dhamma of one level or another can come from any source, and we should not be closed to that possibility. But I'm not sure about the value of 'approaches and interpretations' that are not supported by the texts and commentaries. Can these be regarded as the teachings? > Sometimes our loyalty to the Tipitaka can lead to a kind of subtle > fundamentalism and narrowmindness. On the other hand, and particularly when it comes to any instruction on matters of actual 'practice', we need to be able to discriminate true dhamma from non-dhamma. It is hardly sufficient, I think, to take things on trust and rely on our own instincts, since these instincts are coloured by our own (ample) ignorance and wrong view. The best source of true dhamma is of course the tipitaka and its commentaries. We are extremely fortunate that they are still around in relatively complete form. At some time in the future there will be only the words of self-proclaimed teachers to go on. I think we should make the most of the rare opportunity we have to familiarise ourselves with the actual teachings. Jon 7394 From: kelvin liew peng chuan Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:06pm Subject: pls advice Dear friends in Dhamma, May u all b well & happy! long time since i've written to this group. i'm currently conducting a Dhamma get together for the Buddhist students in my university, learning Dhamma weekly and just started with an introductory session to Metta Bhavana.(this get together is actually an underground thing as we're not allowed to form any religious society in here). the advise i'm asking is what can i include in the weekly discussions(the Buddhist must knows)?does anyone have a sample Dhamma class outline? pls suggest some activities we can do.thanks. with metta : sampuna 7395 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Ajahn Brahms on Satipatthana Joshua --- Joshua wrote: > > > I would say yes, the whole Canon, including the commentaries. I say > this > > because it is easy to read individual suttas, or event the whole Canon > for > > that matter, and find 'support' for just about any way of practice. > > > > In the Canon itself there are stories & examples of very simple > instructions given to people and, when carried out, lead to Arahantship. > I doubt each and every disciple sat for hours on end listening to > thousands upon thousands of discourses. He might croak before it was all > finished! Quite right. There were many, many listeners in those days who were ready for enlightenment in that very lifetime. It is not surprising, I think, that the a high incidence of such persons should coincide with the appearance of a Buddha in the world. On the other hand, think of all the unmentioned listeners at the time who didn't 'get it' then or later in that lifetime and who croaked it without reaching the goal. > > In the case of the article below, there are several passages which > contain > > statements, inferences or assumptions that are not supported by the > > ancient commentators, > > Could you give some examples? OK. I'm doing something in a separate post. Jon 7396 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 4:37pm Subject: Re: pls advice --- For the course I teach at my uni. I use Buddhism in Daily life by Nina van gorkom. You can download most of this off the web in the beginner section of www.dhammastudy.com or order it from wisdom as a print book. It is easy to read but gives the basic principles of Dhamma. My students- completely new to Dhamma- love it and a group are now translating it into Japanese (for publication). It is also the type of book you could read sections from easily in a study group. robert "kelvin liew peng chuan" wrote: > Dear friends in Dhamma, > > May u all b well & happy! long time since i've written to this group. > > i'm currently conducting a Dhamma get together for the Buddhist students in > my university, learning Dhamma weekly and just started with an introductory > session to Metta Bhavana.(this get together is actually an underground thing > as we're not allowed to form any religious society in here). > > the advise i'm asking is what can i include in the weekly discussions(the > Buddhist must knows)?does anyone have a sample Dhamma class outline? > > pls suggest some activities we can do.thanks. > > with metta : sampuna > 7397 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 5:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma and Cognitive Science Howard > > Put another way, can the findings of cognitive science really give any > > indication either way about any crucial aspect of the teachings? > > > > > ========================== > > Yes, I think, so for the following reasons: > > (1) I have enormous, virtually unshakeable, confidence in the > Buddha > and his Dhamma, but not so in others and their claims, even including > the > eminent Buddhaghosa. I appreciate your confidence in the teachings. > (2) There is a legitimate question as to whether the source of > the > Abhidhamma pitaka was the Buddha, himself, inasmuch as much evidence > suggests > the development of the Abhidhamma over a period of centuries following > the > Buddha's parinibbana. It may very well be the case that the Buddha *was* > the > source, with the original exposition being in a heaven world, and then > repeated to Sariputta, with the eventual passing along of it, and the > recording of it, taking many centuries. But for me to believe that, > which I > certainly would find pleasing, a bit of supporting evidence wouldn't > hurt! > (3) The "world", both nama and rupa, both internal and external, > seems > to hang together in a coherent, holistic fashion, and one would expect a > > truth about the world to be supported both internally and externally. If > > scientific experiments were to point to only one object of discernment > at a > time, that would be most interesting and corroborative. On the other > hand, a > clear demonstration of parallel processing wherein, for example, > multi-sense > objects could co-occur would also have an impact! > > With metta, > Howard My point was simply this. Unless cognitive science can measure something to a degree that is beyond the possibility of error, the result is of no use, since it only *tends to* show one thing or the other. In any event, I think you'll find that what science investigates does not coincide with the paramattha dhammas and other matters discussed by the Buddha. Jon 7398 From: Derek Cameron Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 6:26pm Subject: Re: Testing - Erik Hi, Sarah, I appreciate your post, but I'm getting bored with this study vs practice discussion and all its ramifications, and I would prefer to drop it and move on to something else. Derek. 7399 From: Derek Cameron Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 6:37pm Subject: Re: pls advice Dear Kelvin, I'm sorry to hear you have to keep quiet about your interests at the university. When I first started in Buddhism I used to go to a weekly beginners' class every Sunday afternoon, and the format was: 45 minutes of joint study from a book (I think it was "What the Buddha Taught," by Walpola Rahula, but it's so long ago, I can hardly remember!) 15 minutes break 30 minutes sitting meditation Derek.