10600 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha (was, Concepts) Victor --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > The truths taught by the Buddha are to be understood and not to be > misunderstood as they are. Again, we are in agreement here, Victor. But simply saying this doesn't take us very far, wouldn't you agree? What we need to know is how this understanding is to be developed. So let me ask, what is the means by which one may come to see that conditioned phenomena are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self? For example, what is meant here by 'conditioned phenomena', in your view? Enjoying your posts lately. Jon > > Regards, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > > > > > It is good that you understand that: > > > Conditioned phenomenon is impermanent. > > > Conditioned phenomenon is unsatisfactory/dukkha. > > > Conditioned phenomenon is to be seen as it actually is with right > > > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my > > > self." 10601 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 1:47am Subject: New Members- settling in on dsg Dear New Members, --- alunsiwolf@a... wrote: > i have been studing buddhism for only 3 months & seem to be at a loss > trying > to "keep up" with your site's postings. In addition to the note I sent to this person off-list, I'd like to remind others that it's easy to change the setting from receiving 'individual mail' to reading it 'at the website only' or receiving mail in a 'digest form'. To change these options, please follow the directions on the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup More detail is also given about the options in the files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Finally, there are a few posts which are particularly helpful for newbies under 'New to the list and new to Buddhism' in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Please send us a post here to tell us about your interest in Buddhism and any questions or comments(however basic) to make the list relevant to your interest! Sarah ===================================================== 10602 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee Dear suan I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one burmese sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one life.I have read more pali than you but i still haven't seen buddhaghosa ,sumangala ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more bhavanga in one life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana regardless of bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in burmese because i do read burmese. >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee >Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:21:15 -0000 > > > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > >How are you? > >I am afraid I don't think I understand your message. Did you >carefully read my post 10521 that you were complaining about? > >I provided Buddhaghosa's own statement on the matter both in Pali and >its translation. Not only that. I also mentioned Buddhaghosa's >disclaimer regarding the matter. > >If you read Pali language, I could analyse the Pali quote word for >word, if necessary. If you do not read Pali, well, I am afraid I >could not help you in that way. > >And, as I do not understand your message properly, I may not be able >to answer your questions, either. I do not find your post very >coherent, I am afraid. I am really sorry about my failure to resolve >your complaints on this occasion. > >Of course, you may attempt to clarify your complaints after having >carefully read my post 10521. > >It is a Buddhist virtue to remove someone's ignorance (my failure to >understand your message, in this case)! > >Thank you for your attempt to make sense of my post and respond to it. > > >With kind regards, > >Suan > >http://www.bodhiology.org > 10603 From: Lucy Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Hello ! I'm one of those new members, though I recognise quite a few names from the other lists I subscribe to, the 'new' is only relative. My sympathies to those who can't keep up - I'm one of them - so many messages, so many topics each bringing new questions, subtopics and infra-topics. And more come up before one has had time to formulate the question...I keep on moving mails to a 'To Read Later' folder---but it's bursting at the seams!!! I'll just have to concentrate on the topics that concern me for now and start deleting the others. Sorry, no offence intended. Your index of useful topics is invaluable (it's in the Files section of the Yahoo web site for those who haven't seen it). Thanks for taking the trouble! By way of introduction: I'm of the 'M' persuasion (another reason to maintain respectful silence), took Refuge Vows with a Tibetan sect and Precepts with a Soto Zen sect, technically I belong to both, but now practice on my own as there is no group in this (rather backwater) area where I'd feel comfortable practising. My first contact with Buddhism years ago was through the Pali Tipitaka, for the past year I've gone back to studying it and trying to practice more in accordance with it. My interest was re-kindled by studying some works by Vasubandhu and realising that I still had a lot to learn from both the Suttanta and the Abidhamma. There are no Theravada groups nearby, though my house is open to anyone who wants to pop in for a chat with tea, oat cakes and meditation. Back to read last week's mails. Be well ! Lucy 10604 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Erik (and Frank), Hi Sarah, > When we talk (or rather the Buddha talks) about mundane right view or > pa~n~na, this is not merely intellectual right view but direct > understanding of realities at this moment. It sounds as though there's some confusion in terminology between mundane vs. supramundae right view here. Mundane Right View includes understanding kamma and its result, for example, among other variations. Only supramundane Right View discerns things as they truly are: devoid of entity, impermanent, and painful. > It is by beginning to develop > pa~n~na little by little of paramatha dhammas that wrong views and > speculations are gradually abandoned. This is the path which will > eventually result in supramundane panna. By way of clarification, the closest the Buddha comes to "paramattha dhammas" (other than those classified as cetasika, but that's not what you've mentioned, rather, "paramattha dhammas" "hearing, visible object, hardness," etc.") in the Satipatthana Suttas regards: "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'" In my reading this passage carefully, through, I see no reference to "paramattha dhammas" ("absolute" realities--whatever is taken for "absolute"--which is an extremely problematic term in its own right) except in the abstract. What the Buddha says explicitly is to be mindful that the body is composed of the Four Great Elements. I am not sure how this is "paramattha" in any way. This is a purely conceptual mode of understanding. Also, there is no mention here of discerning the qualities of "hardness" via the sense-bases, for example, but, rather, on understanding that this body, like all phenomena, is a composed entity, using the Four Great Elements as a means of deconstructing the idea thaere is a persistent entity hinding someplace inside. This makes perfect sense to me taken in light of the other meditations in deconstructing the body into its various body parts, such as hair, phlegm, bile, etc.--none of which to my understanding represent "paramattha dhammas." So I don't see support for observing "paramattha dhammas" via the sense-bases (ayatanas) as a means to ending speculation in places like the Satipatthana Sutta(s). What the Buddha mentions expliticly and repeatedly, in each case (kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma nupassana) is discerning either the composed nature of things (the khandas for example), and more often, the "origination & passing away" of the various objects of investigation suggesetd in the Satipatthana Sutta(s). For another sutta that mentions only the impermanence aspect, please see the "The Kimsuka Sutta": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html. Regarding "paramattaha dhammas" and their apparance through the six sense-bases, I see no explicit mention of "paramattha dhammas" in the Sutta. What is mentioned exlpicitly are the FETTERS that arise dependent on the six sense-bases. Again, no mention is made of "hardness" or "visual object," but on the fetters that arise in dependence on sights, sounds, tastes, smells, feeeling, AND INTELLECT (concepts!): "And how does [one] remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where [one] discerns the eye, [one] discerns forms, [one] discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. [One] discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And [one] discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And [one] discerns how there is no further appearance in the future of a fetter that has been abandoned." To read further, in the other case where the sense-bases are discussed (when one contemplates the Four Noble Truths in terms of dhamamanupassana), they are spoken of in the same manner. Instead of talking about "paramattha dhammas" such as "visible object, hearing, hardness, " etc., again, the Buddha explicitly lists in what way we should be aware of the sense-bases in terms of suffering, its origination, and its passing away: "And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. "And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. "And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells." This goes all the way up to though (concepts again, not "paramattha dhammas"!): "Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas..." So it appears then, on a careful reading the Satipatthana Sutta(s), that the key aspects of mindfulness outlined by the Buddha emphasize training (the Buddha does, after all, use the term "training") to discern the composed nature of all conditioned phenomena by way of deconstructing them into their constituents, or by training to discern their transience and impermanence (which are really two sides of the same coin) by thorough investigation into their characteristics, namely, their impermanence, or their lack of entity, or their unsatisfactoriness. So on careful examination of just the Satipatthana Sutta, since most people here seem to refer to it as canonical (we can set aside the "Samadhi Sutta" for a moment here--and as an aside, perhaps I am mistaken, but the other day, I got the impression there were some who weren't aware of the existence of that particular Sutta :), there is no reference there I can find that I would associate with what I understand you to mean by the term "paramattha dhamma." What I see instead is that the Buddha suggested a wide range of physical AND CONCEPTUAL objects to observe as a part of training the mind in Right Mindfulness. Even the body, which one would think that of all objects of discernment, should lend itself to the notion of "paramattha dhammas", The Buddha instead instructs us to analyze it first by way of concepts and categories. In terms of feelings, to note pleasant, unpleasant, or the origination and passing away of said feelings (if cetasikas are "paramattha" by your definition then I could see an argument, but you've been speaking about "paramattha dhammas" arising via the sense-bases, not cetasikas). In terms of mind, whether it is with aversion, lust, constricted or expansive, released or unreleased, in terms of arising and passing away, again. In terms of dhammas, the Buddha mentions objects like the "five hindrances" (nivaranas), etc. None of these, excepting the aforementioned cetasikas, to my understanding, are "paramattha dhammas" that arises through the sense-bases--which is the sens in which you have explained being aware of them. Are the "the seven factors of awakening" (bojjhangas), the "Four Noble Truths" (ariya sacca), which are ALL conceptual in the way they're described in the Satipatthana Sutta, though contemplating them conceptually will eventually lead one into deeper insights if the mind is appropriately trained, freed from the hindrances, and able to discern appropriately (from the Anapanasati Sutta): "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development." So if one accepts that the Satipatthana Sutta details the "direct way" to overcoming the defilements permanently, then it would seem prudent--to me anyway--to try to rightly understand the specifics here, and to work with the FULL range of objects suggested by the Buddha (it is after all the FOUR Foundations of Mindfulness, not THE Foundation of Mindfulness!). Generally speaking, what I take from the sutta is that there are three approaches the Buddha suggested working with: the fact that all things are lack entity, or core (anatta--using things like the elements or deconstructing the body into its constituents), the fact that all things are impermanent (anicca--discerning the arising and passing away of the fetters, etc.), and by way of this reality all things, due to our clinging to them as real, inherently existent, are suffering (dukkha--the Truth of the Origin of Suffering, etc.). Each facet of this practice (anicca, dukkha, anatta) reflects the whole: to recognize the composed nature of all phenomena is to simultaneously recognize their impermanence, and by implication, their unsatisfactoriness. And all of this is of course in perfect accord with the "three gateways" through which supramundane insight is said to arise (in dependence on the favored approach of the meditator: naicca, dukkha, anatta). Through apprehending reality as it is via the gateways of either anatta, anicca, or dukkha (this obviously requires extremely deep insight developed through intensive training such that panna becomes powerful enough to directly penetrate the characteristics of dhammas), supramundane insight has basis to arise and resolves into the simultaneous and direct knowledge of all three aspects of the tilakkhana (three marks of existence), unmediated by any conceptual fabrication. Oh, and by way of side note here related to last Monday's discussion where the training I mentioned regarding "eating meditation" I was taught at Wat Mahatat elicited a few chuckles from some of the participants (who were perhaps not familiar with the many variations on developing mindfulness found in the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta), the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta notes: "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert." So next time anyone has to take a shit, perhaps this is a good time to consider the development of Satipatthana (wasn't there an arahat who terminated the effluents sitting on the loo? I think I recall hearing something about that recently), anyway, not to get scatalogical...) > I liked Frank's papaya story very much;-) Right intellectual understanding > and direct understanding work together. Without hearing and considering > that the mango tastes so delicious on the inside, would one even open it > to check out? No, but, given the nature of the participants in both this forum and at the discussion, permit me to speculate just a bit and say I think there's enough intellectual understanding of concepts regarding anatta, anicca, and so forth. Which leads me, again, to the question, "what now"? > As for "now what?", let's not be concerned about supramundane panna, I think we should be very concerned with supramundane panna! Specifically, the method, the path, the techniques, the strategies, by which one goes about developing mundane panna to the point all the appropriate conditions are present for the arising of supramundane panna! It was important enough for the Buddha to formulate the Truth of the Path, after all! > because now there is no supramundane panna. So what is there now? Sense > door activity and objects, thinking, the `cheating' dhammas being > discussed and so on. It's not just a question of thinking and breaking > down and dis-identifying these realities but seeing that right now there > is no other world other than that of seeing, hearing and so on. I'm not sure if I can agree with this. I think there are many, many other objects worthy of investigation, specifically those listed in great number in the Satipatthana Sutta(s)! > In other > words, instead of selecting or focussing, there can be direct > understanding of whatever reality appears for an instant. "Direct understanding" to me would imply that one DIRECTLY knows the characteristics of what is appearing via the faculty of supramundane insight. Any other "nana" is going to be lokiya, by definition. > If we wish for > more moments of panna or of lasting moments of panna, it shows the > attachment and clinging to self again. So wishing to end suffering and desiring enlightenment is clinging to "self"? Do you have anything you can show me in the Suttas that describes wishing to be free from suffering and the wish to "achieve" enlightenment to be problematic? For example, what do you make of the sort of wholseome chanda (desire!) that is integral to the Four Right Exertions (sammapadana)? To return to Monday's discussion, I see no great problem whatsoever with wishing to reach enlightenment. The greater the desire to do so, the better the odds one will engage in the very activites that lead thataway, even if "imperfect" (which they will be by definition). Even poor kusula is a hell of a lot better than most mind-moments arising, filled as they are by lust, ill-will, conceit, etc. Anything that helps bring about greater kusala can only be a good thing in my book (and in the Triptika, for that matter). I do see a real danger in becoming overly obsessed with avoiding such wholeseome desires out of fear of things like "self view" (which is by definition present until sotapatti-magga-nana at any rate, and the moha of "I, me, mine" is still an anusaya tendency for all but arahants), or worrying unduly about "near enemies" and the like, to the point one dies of analysis paralysis! So I see nothing at all wrong with wholseome desire, effort (or even more shockingly, adfmitting that there is the REALITY of the imputed self we have no choice but to work with if we're rigorously self- honest--those of us not arahats, at any rate!). In fact, according to the Buddha, it's necessary to fully develop the path in terms of Right Effort ("Generating DESIRE, arousing PERSISTENCE, ENDEAVOURING, upholding and EXERTING one's INTENT...)! What to make of THAT! :) And so what if metta falls prey to lobha now and again, as it is guaranteed to do for all not free from their anusaya tendencies toward lust (and ill-will)? Again, we can't deny our tendencies away, pretend they don't exist. We can only work with them as skillfully as possible, with as much awareness as possible, without WORRYING all the time (kukucca!). So it's much better, I think, to practice dana or metta with unavoidable lobha mixed in, because it WILL lead to the accumulation of far greater kusala tendencies than worrying so much about it we do nothing at all! :) Kusala is so hard to come by every little bit helps, no matter how imperfect, that we should strivde o dvelop as much as possible as often as possible! > > So based on my understanding, it's a matter of working with these > > cause-and-effect relationships in the approriate order, knowing, for > > example, that without pacifying the hindrances, the seven factors of > > enlightenment have no basis for arising, not to mention > > enlightenment and final release. Not only that, but among all these > > factors there needs to be the appropriate balance. To veer too far > > in any direction is to depart from the Middle Way, to miss > > the "sweet spot" as in the "lute-string" simile, and to miss the > > mark entirely. > > Erik, as I've mentioned, I've appreciated the pleasant tone in your recent > messages and well-considered points and quotes. Enjoy it while it lasts, because I can assure you it won't (and I mean that in the nicest possible way)! :) > I also appreciated the > same in the live discussion;-)) May I suggest, though, that there is still > an idea of `control' in what you write above. You may want to take this issue up with he Tathagata regarding "controlling", then, since I am merely paraphrasing his words of instruction. > Instead of considering the > `Middle Way' as not veering too much in one direction and missing your > "sweet-spot", can we see it as a moment of understanding? At a moment of > panna, there is no eternalist or annihilation belief, there is no wrong > view or ignorance. It understands the visible object, sound, feeling or > other reality and at that moment. It is accompanied by right awareness, > concentration and effort already. This is why, as Frank pointed out with > the helpful quote, right understanding is the forerunner or dawn. Let's be very specific here Sarah :). It's lokuttara panna that rightly discerns, without ignorance. Let me ask a question. Does lokuttara panna, the only panna that rightly comprehends, take "visible object" as arammana? If not, what is the arammana of the panna that rightly discerns things as they are and destroys the fetters? 10605 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Suan op 06-01-2002 09:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: >> However, as you raised this question again, I will give you, as a >> quick answer, Buddhaghosa's statement on how javana cittas can >> condition bhavangacitta. >> >> The answer to this problem is to do with the timing and quality of >> javana cittas. >> >> When javana citta has the strength of a janaka kamma, it can modify >> bhavangacitta. In fact, it can cause new kinds of bhavangacitta to >> arise. >> >> The following Pali quote comes from Section 687, >> Kankhavitaranavisuddhi niddesa, Visuddhimaggo, Vol.2. >> >> 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. Tam >> patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. >> >> "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy action. It (janaka >> kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise >> either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or during >> the current lifetime." >> >> Please kindly note that the resultant mental aggregates (aruupa >> vipaaka khandhaa) during the current lifetime refer to bhavanga >> cittas. >> > Sarah wrote: > In the same text, Vism X1V, 114, (458 in the Pali) we read specifically > about bhavanga cittas: > > “When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, > then following on whatever kind of rebirth-linking it may be, the same > kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as > life continuum consciousness with the same object; and > again those same kinds. And as long as there is no other kind of arising > of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring > endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a > river.” > Dear Suan and Sarah, I found the text in Nanamoli Vis: XIX, 16, p. 698. Janaka kamma is translated as productive kamma. Janaka is producing. I thought that the vipaka produced by kamma during life were not only bhavangacittas but also seeing, hearing and other sense-cognitions. Or is it not janaka kamma that produces seeing, etc? As Suan reminded us, kamma is the domain of the Buddhas. We cannot understand all. Then, is the janaka kamma producing bhavanga not the same kamma that produced rebirth-consciousness, throughout life? Then seeing etc. can be produced by other kammas. But now we should first listen to you, Suan, because you have other commentarial texts. We should also study the footnotes here, from the co. to the Visuddhimagga. With appreciation of your kindness, consideration and patience, Nina. 10606 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee Dear Ong Teng Kee How are you? You said: "I have read more pali than you,..." I am very glad to hear that you read both Pali and Burmese as well. So I could analyse the Buddhaghosa's statement bit by bit for you. I have been away from Myanmar over 20 years. I have no contact with our revered Myanmar Sayadaws. I am a lone researcher in Canberra with Pali Chatthasangayana CD-ROM and dictionaries. Therefore, I am unable to give you the names of the Sayadaws or their books. All I can do is read the Pali passages deeply and interpret them using whatever knowledge I have of Pali grammar and dictionaries. But, before I analyse Buddhaghosa's statement in Pali, I strongly advise you to read my translation of the Pali statemnt. That way, you can even correct my translation if you found it incorrect. When you read my analysis, you will come to understand why I wrote what I wrote. I wrote what I wrote from the strength of reading Pali statements deeply, and analysing them. When you have read my post (10521), please let me know either on-list oroff-list. Then I will analyse the Pali statement bit bit for you. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > Dear suan > I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one burmese > sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one life.I have > read more pali than you but i still haven't seen buddhaghosa ,sumangala > ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more bhavanga in one > life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana regardless of > bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in burmese > because i do read burmese. > > > > > > >From: "abhidhammika" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee > >Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:21:15 -0000 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > > > >How are you? > > > >I am afraid I don't think I understand your message. Did you > >carefully read my post 10521 that you were complaining about? > > > >I provided Buddhaghosa's own statement on the matter both in Pali and > >its translation. Not only that. I also mentioned Buddhaghosa's > >disclaimer regarding the matter. > > > >If you read Pali language, I could analyse the Pali quote word for > >word, if necessary. If you do not read Pali, well, I am afraid I > >could not help you in that way. > > > >And, as I do not understand your message properly, I may not be able > >to answer your questions, either. I do not find your post very > >coherent, I am afraid. I am really sorry about my failure to resolve > >your complaints on this occasion. > > > >Of course, you may attempt to clarify your complaints after having > >carefully read my post 10521. > > > >It is a Buddhist virtue to remove someone's ignorance (my failure to > >understand your message, in this case)! > > > >Thank you for your attempt to make sense of my post and respond to it. > > > > > >With kind regards, > > > >Suan > > > >http://www.bodhiology.org 10607 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 8:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Sarah Dear Nina How are you? You wrote: "I thought that the vipaka produced by kamma during life were not only bhavangacittas but also seeing, hearing and other sense-cognitions." You are spot-on, Nina. Buddhaghosa used the expression "ruupaaruupa vipaaka khandhe, the resultant physical and mental aggregates". And the resultant mental aggregate include all the five sensory consciousnesses as well as bhavanga cittas. And, to Sarah, As Nina has found the janaka kamma passage in the Visuddhimaggo translation, I won't be replying to you on this matter, Okay. And, thank you, Nina, for helping Sarah out. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 06-01-2002 09:26 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "abhidhammika" wrote: > >> However, as you raised this question again, I will give you, as a > >> quick answer, Buddhaghosa's statement on how javana cittas can > >> condition bhavangacitta. > >> > >> The answer to this problem is to do with the timing and quality of > >> javana cittas. > >> > >> When javana citta has the strength of a janaka kamma, it can modify > >> bhavangacitta. In fact, it can cause new kinds of bhavangacitta to > >> arise. > >> > >> The following Pali quote comes from Section 687, > >> Kankhavitaranavisuddhi niddesa, Visuddhimaggo, Vol.2. > >> > >> 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. Tam > >> patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > >> > >> "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy action. It (janaka > >> kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise > >> either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or during > >> the current lifetime." > >> > >> Please kindly note that the resultant mental aggregates (aruupa > >> vipaaka khandhaa) during the current lifetime refer to bhavanga > >> cittas. > >> > > Sarah wrote: > > In the same text, Vism X1V, 114, (458 in the Pali) we read specifically > > about bhavanga cittas: > > > > "When the rebirth-linking consciousness has ceased, > > then following on whatever kind of rebirth-linking it may be, the same > > kinds, being the result of that same kamma whatever it may be, occur as > > life continuum consciousness with the same object; and > > again those same kinds. And as long as there is no other kind of arising > > of consciousness to interrupt the continuity, they also go on occurring > > endlessly in periods of dreamless sleep, etc., like the current of a > > river." > > > Dear Suan and Sarah, I found the text in Nanamoli Vis: XIX, 16, p. 698. > Janaka kamma is translated as productive kamma. Janaka is producing. I > thought that the vipaka produced by kamma during life were not only > bhavangacittas but also seeing, hearing and other sense-cognitions. Or is it > not janaka kamma that produces seeing, etc? As Suan reminded us, kamma is > the domain of the Buddhas. We cannot understand all. Then, is the janaka > kamma producing bhavanga not the same kamma that produced > rebirth-consciousness, throughout life? Then seeing etc. can be produced by > other kammas. > But now we should first listen to you, Suan, because you have other > commentarial texts. We should also study the footnotes here, from the co. to > the Visuddhimagga. > With appreciation of your kindness, consideration and patience, Nina. 10608 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Concentration Actually? Hi, Jon - Thank you for the following. Vitakka, as defined near the end of your post below, is *exactly* what I was looking for! However, I have questions with regard to the notion of 'ekagatta' discussed by you as follows: "However, there is already a 'concentration' cetasika -- ekaggataa cetasika -- whose function is somewhat different, namely, to concentrate the citta on its present object, whatever that object might be (and regardless of whether it is the same object as the object the preceding citta)." Inasmuch as there is always only one object of discernment at any time, what extra thing does that one-pointedness do? How can there ever *not* be one-pointedness given that there is always only one object? When and how is a citta *not* concentrated on its present object? What exactly would that mean? With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/6/02 4:36:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Erik - > ........... > > I've had a drop of experience in samatha bhavana, involving > > concentration practice focusing the mind on a single meditation subject, > > and > > also some practice in vipassana bhavana, involving what is sometimes > > called > > moment-to-moment concentration practice. In my experience these types of > > > > concentration are different, but, in their different ways, equally > > powerful. > > In either of these cases, the concentration is, as you say, radically > > different from "the normal sort of samadhi that (may) arise in > > day-to-day > > life through concentrating on random object arising through thes > > sense-doors". > > The point of my post, however, was to inquire into the technical > > question of what is actually occurring, at a microscopic level of > > detail, > > when concentration has increased. My conjecture was that the switching > > back > > and forth among various (instances of) objects from citta to citta to > > citta > > typical of ordinary experience is reduced, in the extreme case to a > > single > > object (or near-replicates identified as "the same object") which is the > > > > arammana in mental process after mental process. Now, it seems almost > > certain > > to me that such a curtailing of the diversity of objects of awareness, > > such > > focusing and stabilization, is due to some functional characteristic or > > cetasika within each mindstate becoming strengthened, in which case that > > > > cetasika, itself, might be called "concentration". I am asking those who > > are > > well versed in Abhidhamma what their understanding of the Abhidhamma > > "take" > > is on this subject. > > I have sought the views of some persons well-versed in Abhidhamma, and > would like to attempt an answer to your question. > > You are wondering what is the factor in samatha bhavana that allows > successive cittas to take the same object (i.e., the 'meditation > subject'). > > I would agree that, conventionally speaking, we could call this > 'concentration'. However, there is already a 'concentration' cetasika -- > ekaggataa cetasika -- whose function is somewhat different, namely, to > concentrate the citta on its present object, whatever that object might be > (and regardless of whether it is the same object as the object the > preceding citta). Being one of the 'universals', ekaggataa cetasika does > of course arise at moments of samatha bhavana where it performs exactly > this function. > > The answer to your question is I think found in Ch. 8 of Nina's > 'Cetasikas'. There it is explained that it is the function of vitakka > cetasika to strike or hit upon the object of the citta, and that in > samatha bhavana, vitakka "thinks of" or "touches" the meditation subject > again and again. Vitakka is the first of the jhana factors. > > Both ekaggataa cetasika and vitakka cetasika are also present at moments > of vipassana and enlightenment. Indeed, in this context they are path > factors -- ekaggataa cetasika is the path factor that is 'right > concentration/samma samadhi', and vitakka cetasika is the path factor that > is 'right thinking/samma-vayama'. > > Confusingly, the term 'samadhi' is sometimes used in the texts to refer to > samatha bhavana and sometimes to ekagatta cetasika. > > I have set out below some relevant terms (as I understand them). > > Jon > > Samatha -- 'Calmness' or 'tranquillity'. An attribute of all kusala > cittas, in the sense of being calm or tranquil from akusala. > Samatha bhavana -- The development of certain kinds of kusala that are > particularly conducive to calmness, accompanied by panna (wisdom), to the > level of jhana. > Ekagatta cetasika -- The cetasika (mental factor) that is 'concentration'. > It concentrates the citta on its object. Is a 'universal' (i.e., arises > with every citta) and so may be kusala or akusala depending on the citta > it accompanies > Passaddhi -- The cetasika (mental factor) that is calmness or tranquillity > It arises with each moment of kusala citta. > Vitakka -- The cetasika that that strikes or hits upon the object of the > citta. In samatha bhavana, it causes/allows the citta to take the same > object on successive moments. > Samadhi -- 'Concentration'. A term whose meaning rather depends on the > context. Sometimes used as a synonym for ekagatta cetasika, sometimes for > samatha/samatha bhavana (and sometimes something else). > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10609 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha (was, Concepts) Hello Jon, You asked how understanding things as they actually are is developed. Concentration (samadhi). Concentration (samadhi) is the condition, the prerequisite for understanding things as they actually are (yathabhutañanadassana). Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Concentration http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html What is the condition, the prerequisite for concentration (samadhi)? Happiness (sukha). Happiness (sukha) is the condition, the prerequisite for concentration (samadhi). What is the condition, the prerequisite for happiness (sukha)? Tranquillity (passaddhi). Tranquillity (passaddhi) is the condition, the prerequisite for happiness (sukha). What is the condition, the prerequisite for tranquillity (passaddhi)? Rapture (piti). Rapture (piti) is the condition, the prerequisite for tranquillity (passaddhi). What is the condition, the prerequisite for rapture (piti)? Joy (pamojja). Joy (pamojja) is the condition, the prerequisite for rapture (piti). What is the condition, the prerequisite for joy (pamojja)? Faith (saddha). Faith (saddha) is the condition, the prerequisite for joy (pamojja). What is the condition, the prerequisite for faith (saddha)? Suffering (dukkha). Suffering (dukkha) is the condition, the prerequisite for faith (saddha). Samyutta Nikaya XII.23, Upanisa Sutta, Discourse on Supporting Conditions http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html (Christine, thank you for providing the reference to Transcendental Dependent Arising, A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta, by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html back in last October in dhamma-list.) With faith (saddha) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, one starts to observe the Five Precepts (pañca-sila). The reward and blessing of wholesome morality is freedom from remorse. The reward and blessing of freedom from remorse is joy. The reward and blessing of joy is rapture. The reward and blessing of rapture is tranquility. The reward and blessing of tranquility is happiness. The reward and blessing of happiness is concentration. The reward and blessing of concentration is vision and knowledge of things as they actually are. (Please refer to AN X.1) Conditioned phenomena is what is dependently co-arising with condition. Please refer to Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html Please also refer to Samyutta Nikaya IV.92-93. I hope I have provided satisfactory answer and references to your questions. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > > > The truths taught by the Buddha are to be understood and not to be > > misunderstood as they are. > > Again, we are in agreement here, Victor. But simply saying this doesn't > take us very far, wouldn't you agree? What we need to know is how this > understanding is to be developed. > > So let me ask, what is the means by which one may come to see that > conditioned phenomena are impermanent, unsatisfactory and not- self? For > example, what is meant here by 'conditioned phenomena', in your view? > > Enjoying your posts lately. > > Jon > 10610 From: yuzhonghao Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 9:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept Hello Jon, It seems that we understand that a concept is conditioned. As I understand from Sarah's message, a concept is dependent on thinking, has thinking as its condition, comes to be because of thinking. And as I understand from your message, a concept is dependent on mind, has mind as its condition, comes to be because of mind. What exactly is condition for concept, I think, is another topic for discussion. However, at this point, it seems that we have come to understand that a concept is conditioned, dependently arising. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > > > You questioned that "Can we say that a concept comes to be because of > > thinking?" What do you think? Can we? You wrote that no thinking > > means no concepts. From what you wrote, it seems to me that you mean > > that concept is dependent on thinking. This is how I understand the > > word "concept" from the online dictionary in http://www.webster.com: > > A concept means something conceived in the mind, a thought, a > > notion. It also means an abstract or generic idea generalized from > > particular instances. The synonym to the word "concept" is the > > word "idea." I agree with you that thinking is conditioned. > > I had planned to give a reply to your original question (> How does a > concept come to be?), but had not got around to it by the time you sent > your follow-up. > > A you rightly point out, a concept is a mere creation of the mind, a > notion. The importance of this from our point of view is that a concept > has no 'existence' independently of the citta that 'creates' it. > > The abhidhamma makes a distinction between concepts and realities > (dhammas). Realities have an essential nature that can be experienced by > sati/panna, while concepts do not. > > Concepts are undoubtedly conditioned, in the sense that, as you say, they > are dependent on thinking, which is itself conditioned. But whereas the > thinking is a reality that has an individual nature capable of being > experienced by panna, a concept has no such individual nature, according > to the abhidhamma. > > Jon 10611 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Concentration Actually? Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 1/6/02 11:16:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Inasmuch as there > is always only one object of discernment at any time, what extra thing does > > that one-pointedness do? How can there ever *not* be one-pointedness given > that there is always only one object? When and how is a citta *not* > concentrated on its present object? What exactly would that mean? > =========================== I note that the definition of ekagatta at the end of your post points out that it is universal, accompanying every act of discernment. Does this mean that this cetasika is nothing more than the fact of there being only one arammana at a time? How is this possible when one-pointedness is, for example, a jhana factor to be *developed*? Also, ekagatta as the mere property of one object per mindstate doesn't strike me as a function/operation, but merely as a *characteristic* of vi~n~nana. Does this also mean that there are no *degrees* of one-pointedness? If there *are* degrees of one-pointedness, then one-pointedn ess must refer to something besides one arammana per citta. Informally, 'one-pointedness' means "focus", with the object of attention being restricted/delimited. An example of this is being one-pointed on a kasina, with focus restricted to it and ignoring the surrounding visual field. But this is at the conventional level of "object". From the Abhidhamma perspective, this kind of focus goes beyond individual cittas. Is it not possible that in the suttas, 'ekagatta' does not carry the same meaning as in the Abhidhamma. It seems so to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10612 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma Dear Nina, I got the Guide through Abhidhamma-pitaka by Nyanatoloka. I scanned through it once before. I looked at Katthavatthu section in more detail this time. YES, it's helpful. The library at my Univ. has a very good collections of Buddhism text both in Pali, Sansakrit and English. Num 10613 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Rounds Thanks a lot Jon, I really appreciate that you mentioned A. Sujin's remark that her point is not formally considered by a teacher committee at the foundation. Remind of some books I have read, atthakathacara(the writer) at times put in points of controversy and his own remark and clearly cited that this is from tipitaka, this is what he thinks and this is what other think. I am looking forward to meeting and learning from her more sometime in the future. (sound like a lobha to me :) ) Num 10614 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind <<<<<<<<< "Could you kindly explained the sentence "new kinds of bhavangacittas"." Well, you first had the given bhavangacittas from birth. During your current lifetime, you happened to perform janaka kamma. Suppose that the effect of javana kamma did not wait till your next conception, and needed to appear during your currect lifetime. And, suppose also that the effect was the resultant mental aggregate (aruupa vipaaka khandhaa), then you got different kind of bhavangacitta. As simple as that. >>>>>>>>>> Dear Suan, Nina, Sarah, Otengee and everyone, First of all sorry for my limit and poor pali, I rewrite some of the words from Thai-pali into Roman Pali on my own. It may look somewhat funny. Always a good reminder about 4 achintai( 4 unthinkable) : nature of the buddha, nature of jhana, vipaka of kamma, and the (origin) of the world. (achintitasutra, Ang. Catuka-nibhat). As many have mentioned, it's hard not to think or analyze. I thought there should be some reasons these 4 achintai was mentioned in a sutra. Let me share, kind of parroting, what I have read about the bavanga, kamma and vipaka so far, mainly from Abhidammatthasagaha (Narada Thera, A.Somporn and Mahamakutarajavyalai) and some from Visuddhimagga (Thai and PTS) Agantuka bavanga & kammacatukka, Agantuka bavanga: the bevanga that can be different in the case for example if one born with somanasa patisandhi, bavanga will also be in the vedana-jati, somanasa. In case of if there is domanasa java-vithi, it said that somanasa-bavanga cannot immedaitely follow domanasa-jati javana, so agantuga bavanga occurs in upekka-jati before the congenital somanasa bhavaga citta. So vedana-jati of bavanga citta in the same lifetime can be different. Only in Narada version mentions that the even the vedana-jati of bavanga is different but the aramana is still the same. Kammacatukka, 4 of the fourfold of kamma 1. With respect of function (janakatikicca) 1.1 Janaka-kamma (reproductive kamma) in patisandhi-kala cause vipaka(patisandhi) and also kammajarupa. In pavatti-kala causes vipakacitta, kammajarupa( eg.pasadarupa) as well as vimana(mansion) of angels or bhrama. 1.2 Upatthambakamma : supportive kamma 1.3 Upapilakamma : obstructive kamma 1.4 Upaghatakamma :destructive kamma 2. with respect of severity (pakadana) 2.1 garukamma (weightly kamma) 2.2 2.2 asannakamma (proximate kamma) 2.3 2.3 acinnakamma (habitual kamma) 2.4 2.4 katattakamma (reserve kamma) 3. with respect of chronology (pakakala) 3.1 ditthadhamma vedaniyakamma : giving effect in this current lifetime. Mean for cetana cetasika in the first jananacitta. Result will be ahetuka kamavacara-vipaka 3.2 upapajja vedaniyakamma: giving effect in next lifetime. Mean for cetana-cetasika the seventh javana. Result in patisandhi and vipaka-citta in next lifetime 3.3 aparapariya vedaniyakamma: in the 3rd lifetime and so on. 2th-5th javanacitta. 3.4 ahosikamma: defunct kamma 4.with respect of place in which effect takes place (pakatthana). Mean for various of cetana cetasika that can cause vipaka. 4.1 akusulakamma : akusalacitta 12 4.2 kamavacara-kusulakamma: maha-kusalacitta 8 4.3 rupavacara-kusalakamma 4.4 arupavacara-kusalakamma. From what I read so far, all these 5 books say the same thing that patisandhi, bavanga and cuti citta in the same lifetime has the same aramana. Some of the books refer and quote paragraph from katha and tika(both in Thai and Pali). I have not had time to look up in Tipitaka or atthakatha yet. Just like to share what I have read. Thanks for an interesting topic. I will try to consider the issue more wisely and attentively in the future if conditions permit. Appreciate in your energy, your kindness and this is a good opportunity for me to learn and read more. Looking forward to more translation. Best wishes, Num 10615 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 10:18am Subject: One Further Thought on One-Pointedness Hi, Jon (and anyone else interested) - One more thought: Perhaps one-pointedness is actually the tendency or disposition or sankhara for an object to continue in consciousness - kind of a "mental momentum" cetasika. If that is so, then there *could* be degrees of one-pointedness. The greater the degree of one-pointedness, the less arammana changing there would be, the greater the "mental stability". The less the degree of one-pointedness, the less stable would "concentration" be and the greater the instability and "distraction". Moreover, it would make sense for vitakka and vicara to foster ekagatta. This is a notion which makes sense to me. Does it have any basis in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10616 From: manji Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 4:08pm Subject: On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana Originally I had asked Sarah if there could be the arising of domanassa (unpleasant feeling) without dosa (aversion). Sarah asked to open this into the group... I post the following for debate... Lobha-mula-citta can only be accompanied by somanassa or uppekha. There may be somanassa or uppekha without lobha-mula-citta. Dosa-mula-citta can only be accompanied by domanassa. There may be domanassa without dosa-mula-citta. If it is true that domanassa is always accompanied by dosa-mula-citta, then the there is no cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is no buddha, and there is no sangha. If it is true that domanassa is never accompanied by dosa-mula-citta, then there is no suffering, there is no cause of suffering, there is no cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is no buddha, and there is no sangha. If it is true that domanassa may be unaccompanied by dosa-mula-citta, then this accounts for the suffering, the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering, the path, the buddha, and the sangha. =============== manji www.shugyokai.org 10617 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FYI Dear Erik, I just wanted to say how interesting and useful I found your post, particularly your discussion of the Satipatthana Sutta, Vipassana, and the jhanas and bojjhangas. You provided a good context for the basic teaching of the Buddha, one that may engender some debate, but which seems to have a lot of integrity in its own right. Thanks for sharing the fruits of your years of effort in study and meditation. Your posts are always illuminating, and I personally appreciate your contribution. Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" wrote: > > > Thanks again. I should hear back soon re. my request > > to move up my departure date--I'll keep you posted. I > > meet today with the Wat Mahatat monks for a formal > > apology(!) for not having moved in there and taken up > > their unusual meditation practice after my return from > > Laos. It'll be a relief to have that over with, at > > least. > > Hi Mike, > > I find this statement curious, given everything I've been taught > there I have found to be in perfect accord with the actual > instructions outlined by the Buddha in the Satipatthana Sutta (any > teacher, as one of mine did, who begins a teaching with the simile > of the raft, has my rapt attention!). I have furthermore found that > what I have been taught does not diverge one iota from what the > Buddha actually taught in lpaes like the Satipatthana Sutta, for > example. The methods I've learned there are about as mainstream > Buddhist (whether Theravada or Mahayana) as they come. > > I would be very interested in hearing specifically what you > find "unusual" about the practices there (such as anapanasati or for > some, the Mahasi Sayadaw method of focus on the rising and falling > of the abdomen), or, for example, regarding specific methods of > training in mindfulness such as: "when walking, the monk discerns > that he is walking. When standing, he discerns that he is standing. > When sitting, he discerns that he is sitting. When lying down, he > discerns that he is lying down. Or however his body is disposed, > that is how he discerns it." > > I was reminded of this consonance in theory and praxis between what > I've learned from the many teachers there (as well as from my > Tibetan teachers) even more after a long conversation I had with a > monk in a small village wat in Laos a few weeks ago. He is a Lao (US > Citizen now) monk who's lived in American 28 years who'd ordianed in > a small village wat a ways outside Vientiane. > > After a "coincidental" and fortuitous meeting, we would up having a > wonderfully detailed conversation for a few hours on the Dhamma and > meditation in specific, which merely confirmed for me the > universality of the methods taught at mainstream places like Wat > Mahatat that adhere to the teachings in the Satipatthana Sutta, > given he has been taught and practies in exactlty the same way as is > taught at mainstream places like Wat Mahatat. > > But that discussion wasn't even necessary to ascertain the viability > of those methods in my own case--merely the direct application of > those methods in my own limited experience proved almost instantly > that these "pure vipassana" approaches definitely work, and act as > powerful conditions for Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, > even setting aside for a moment that I've been trained in methods > that emphasize cultivating jhana combined with vipassana (also what > the Buddha specifically taught in the Suttas). > > That said, I have encountered other other approaches that sounded > superficially OK at first, but when I examined them with great care, > they appeared to diverge significantly from what the Buddha actually > taught in places like the Satipatthan Sutta and elsewhere. I have > found such apparently divergent approaches raise far more questions > than they answer for me--especially in terms of how one can apply > them to get from point A (suffering sentient being) to point B > (liberated by direct insight). > > Just by way of anectdote, it took me less than two hours of > practicing the methods of "training" and "remaining > focused" using the methods outlined by my teachers at places like > Wat Mahatat (not to mention they accord perfectly with what I've > been taught by my Tibetan teachers) to engender significantly > increased mindfulness. And again, this from a totally different > tradition than the one I've been trained in! > > Conversely, other approaches, even after serious, and what I believe > to be dispassionate analysis (after all my primary training has been > in the Tibetan Geluk-pa system, yet I actively seek out teachings > from Theravada teachers with the eye to comparing, constrasting, and > most imoprtant, integrating those teachings into my own practice), > combined with long and deliberate consideration, discussion, and > analysis, I have found neither clear precedent for such approaches > in the Suttas, nor have I found them conducive to the sort of > mindfulness I have come to associate with Right Mindfulness and > Right Concentration in my own limited experiences. What I can say is > that there is a difference as great as night and day between the > approaches I've found have led to increased sati and samadhi, vs. > those that provide too little "traction" to lead someone with my > accumulations to true samma sati and samma samadhi. > > One rule of thumb I find helpful in discerning what is and is not > effective "method" is if it really engenders the results the Buddha > detailed. For example, how well doeas any given approach help > engender unbroken focus, clear comprehension, and concentration over > long peiods of time? Taking what the Buddha taught in the > Anapanasati Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > "And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as > to bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination?" > > [Note again this is specifically what the Buddha taught as the > factors leading to release: the seven factors of enlightenment, the > bojjhangas] > > "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & > of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & > distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his > mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is > steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor of awakening > becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the > culmination of its development." > > I find it beneficial to pay particular attention to the instruction > that says: "When his mindfulness is ***steady & without lapse*** > [emphasis mine], then mindfulness as a factor of awakening becomes > aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of > its development." > > Since few Buddhists would argue against the crititical position the > bojjhangas play in awakening and final release, then unless one has > unbroken mindfulness (which carries with it the implication of > highly developed concentration as well), then there is not the > development of samma sati that leads to release, not to mention the > other factors: > > "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes > to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains > mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a > comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of > qualities as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, > and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. > > "[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of > that quality with discernment, unflagging persistence is aroused. > When unflagging persistence is aroused in one who examines, > analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with > discernment, then persistence as a factor of awakening becomes > aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of > its development. > > "[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh > arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose > persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor of awakening > becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the > culmination of its development. > > "[5] For one who is enraptured, the body grows calm and the mind > grows calm. When the body & mind of an enraptured monk grow calm, > then serenity as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops > it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. > > "[6] For one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- the mind becomes > concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease -- his body > calmed -- becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor of > awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to > the culmination of its development. > > "[7] He oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he > oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a > factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it > goes to the culmination of its development. > > [Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, > & mental qualities.] > > "This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so > as to bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. > > (Clear Knowing & Release) > "And how are the seven factors of awakening developed & pursued so > as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is > the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor of awakening > dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in > relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor of > awakening... persistence as a factor of awakening... rapture as a > factor of awakening... serenity as a factor of awakening... > concentration as a factor of awakening... equanimity as a factor of > awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, > resulting in relinquishment. > > "This is how the seven factors of awakening, when developed & > pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > So what to make of all this? I think any teaching that does NOT > emphasize all of these factors in the appropriate degree and > balance, or any teaching that does not lead to the sort of > mindfulness ("steady and without lapse") that serves as the > foundation for the remaining bojjhanagas, that release would be > something extremely difficult to come by. > > What are your thoughts on all of this, Mike? > > *** > > May all beings have happinhess and cause of happiness. > May all beings be free from suffering and the cause of suffering. > May all beings never be separated from perfect joy. > May all beings abide in equanimity, undefiled by the taints of the > Eight Worldly Concenrns. 10618 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Thanks Jon. That's actually perfectly clear and I appreciate it. It is actually a very good point: the effort to correct wrong concepts is like yelling at the wind. It is the direct discernment or lack thereof of what is actual upon which 'useful' or 'frivolous' concepts can be formed. If we know that a concept is a concept but that it is referring to a reality, that may be a useful way of organizing our activity. But if the concept is floating around in the conceptual world, with no reference to what is real or unreal, then we are really lost. Thanks for the good point, which is another pointer in the right direction: towards direct knowledge of rupas and namas. Best, Robert Ep. ================ --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Jon, > > I understand your statement that both arising and conceptual wrong > > understanding > > can be an obstacle. But this leaves me a little confused about what you > > meant in > > your original statement by: 'The root cause of our problems in not our > > wrong > > conceptual grasp of things...' Could you say a word about that? I > > understand > > the second part of the sentence, but I don't understand how wrong > > conceptual grasp > > is not a root cause, yet our 'general accumulated wrong view' about > > realities is. > > I don't quite have the distinction between those two..... > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > I'm a little confused myself, Rob, since I've lost track of the original > thread. However, let me try to restate what I might have had in mind. > > Wrong conceptual understanding is based on wrong understanding of > realities (dhammas); it is the latter that is the cause of the former and > not the other way around. > > To give an example from our discussion, our conceptual idea of 'hardness' > is bound to be inaccurate as long as direct understanding of the reality > that is hardness has not been fully developed. No amount of 'correcting' > our conceptual misunderstanding can bring any meaningful progress along > the path. > > Another example. An idea of 'self' arises because realities have not been > directly seen with panna as having the characteristic of 'not-self'. Even > though we may have accepted as correct at an intellectual level the > teaching on no self, the concept of self is still there and will arise, > because of the lack of understanding of realities. > > I hope this is clearer. > > Jon 10619 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Dear Lucy, --- Lucy wrote: > Hello ! > > I'm one of those new members, though I recognise quite a few names > from the other lists I subscribe to, the 'new' is only relative. Welcome here and I’m glad that you’ve ‘broken the ice’ on dsg. > My sympathies to those who can't keep up - I'm one of them - so many > messages, so many topics each bringing new questions, subtopics and > infra-topics. And more come up before one has had time to formulate > the question...I keep on moving mails to a 'To Read Later' > folder---but it's bursting at the seams!!! I'll just have to > concentrate on the topics that concern me for now and start deleting > the others. Sorry, no offence intended. I see you share Christine’s witty style...Yes, we all having trouble keeping up. I have a folder of posts I’d like to reply to, but ever so often, I just have to empty it and start again. I think your plan of concentrating on those of special concern makes sense. Perhaps you can come back to others later;-) > Your index of useful topics is invaluable (it's in the Files section > of the Yahoo web site for those who haven't seen it). Thanks for > taking the trouble! Thanks for taking a look/reading these. Actually it’s a very biased selection;-) Please feel free to bring up any old topics or posts anytime. > By way of introduction: I'm of the 'M' persuasion (another reason to > maintain respectful silence), took Refuge Vows with a Tibetan sect and > Precepts with a Soto Zen sect, technically I belong to both, but now > practice on my own as there is no group in this (rather backwater) > area where I'd feel comfortable practising. Well we have quite a few “M’ members or originally ‘M’ members who, like you, are interested to learn more from the pali Tipitaka as well. I wonder if your backwater is in England as I note you are using a UK server? If so, may I ask where? I’m English too but I've lived overseas for 20yrs. > My first contact with Buddhism years ago was through the Pali > Tipitaka, for the past year I've gone back to studying it and trying > to practice more in accordance with it. My interest was re-kindled by > studying some works by Vasubandhu and realising that I still had a lot > to learn from both the Suttanta and the Abidhamma. As you said, ‘new’ is a relative term and we look forward to hearing more from you. You’ve obviously considered/studied/practised a lot. > There are no Theravada groups nearby, though my house is open to > anyone who wants to pop in for a chat with tea, oat cakes and > meditation. Sounds very inviting.....Last summer I met a few dsg friends for tea and cakes and chat in Sussex. In the meantime, I look forward to chatting with you here;-) Best regards, Sarah ====================================================== 10620 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 6, 2002 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) Hi Erik, I can see you’re back in form. If you don’t mind, I won’t attempt to reply in context, otherwise I fear we may have a book on our hands which might only be of interest to you and me;-) Perhaps I’ll just try to summarise a few areas in which we have different understandings from the texts: 1)Paramattha dhammas (‘ultimate’ truths) There has been a lot of discussion on dsg about the difference between conventional and ultimate truths. When I read any of the suttas, including the Satipatthana Sutta, I understand the Buddha to be talking about paramattha truths, whatever the terms and language used to express these. There are a number of very helpful posts (imho) saved under ‘Concepts and Realities’ in Useful Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts May I particularly draw your attention to one by Rob Ed on ‘paramattha dhammas’ in the Suttas and one by Howard on the Buddha’s use of conventional terminology: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9847 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10026 2)Focus and ‘unbroken mindfulness’ You often quote a translation using ‘focus’ in the Satipatthana Sutta. From the translation by Soma Thera we read: “And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in conciousness?” “ Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust; the conciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate............” By contemplating consciousness (cittanupassanaa) is meant sati (awareness) of the cittas discussed. As we know from our abhidhamma studies, sati is not unbroken or continuous but is a skilful mental state arising momentarily with a specific citta (consciousnes) in the javana (‘running-through’) process. It is mindful or any reality appearingas discussed in this sutta and all other suttas. 3) Mundane and Supramundane Understanding. We read in the Visuddhimagga in detail about the vipassana ~nanas. These are all mundane understandings of highly developed panna which knows paramattha dhammas more and more precisely and in depth. The first stage is clearly understanding the difference between namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena= 5 khandhas=paramattha dhammas). At this level, the highly developed wisdom of the sotapanna that clearly understands the tri-lakhana (anicca, dukkha and anatta) as characteristics of each reality has not yet been realized. Yet long before the first vipassana nana, panna has to begin to directly understand characteristics about many different paramattha dhammas. 4) Wishing While it’s true that chanda (zeal) arises with wholesome cittas, it also arises with all kinds of attachment and some kinds of aversion too (as well as some vipaka cittas) now. We’d like to think that everytime we consider nibbana and supramundane consciousness that this is skilful ‘wishing’, but for most of us, these are good opportunities for the deceiving dhammas to play their tricks again. Most of this wishing is merely more attachment. Only sati can know for each of us, I realise. 5) Numbers game As we know, very few people, including Theravada practitioners, have any interest in Abhidhamma and few people consider the Suttas in depth. Does this make the Abhidhamma or Sutta depth-consideration less precious? I don’t think so. In the decline of the Sasana, a day will come when there may only be one human left considering the Teachings at all. The value remains however. 6) Rt Effort. Our understanding of rt effort will depend on our understanding of anatta and of concepts and realities. While we cling to an idea of self there is bound to be an idea of control and of self making an effort rather than an understanding of paramattha dhammas. Plenty has been written on this topic under the same heading in Useful Posts. 7) Metta and lobha (attachment) As you say, there is bound to be lobha in between the moments of metta. This is natural and like any other unwholesome states can be the object of awareness. When we wish to have more metta or try to follow a practise to have metta, these are good opportunities to understand the attachment to self better, I believe. 8) The ‘quick fix’ You mention that you can get a result and increased mindfulnes in less than two hours following a particular method. Of course it’s natural to want to find a quick method or short-cut, but I question whether the profound Teachings and intricacies and subtleties of understanding the present reality can be reduced to such a method. I don’t doubt at all that results are achieved from practices and methods (and know this is true), but I question whether the result is awareness and understanding of the paramattha dhammas which I believe the Buddha to have taught throughout all parts of the Tipitaka. Without clear intellectual understanding initially as to what paramattha dhammas are, I would even venture to say that this is impossible. ********** Erik, I lost this post to you (1st draft) on a frozen screen and so this has been a test of patience to re-write it in an abbreviated form. It never works quite the same on re-writing and I apologise if any impatience with my computer is showing through;-) I know you’ll let me know if I haven’t addressed all your points and I also realize that your pleasant tone which I’m very attached to is impermanent;-)) Sarah p.s Best wishes to Eath from the one in the photo in your living room with the ‘white hair’;-) ====================================================== 10621 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:03am Subject: Elementary questions Dear All, I am reading elementary articles on Abhidhamma and have a few questions. This article is 'Introduction to the Dhamma' by Jill Jordan and Richard Giles. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or elsewhere to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta, one of his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second only to the Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the monks under his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master it. In this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down to us intact." 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as subtle and 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), fire(temperature), and wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the 28 classes of rupa? 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and ill will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they seem to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately want', to have wrong view? 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for food and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in Christian countries over the centuries. metta, Christine 10622 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:30am Subject: Re: Elementary questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > I am reading elementary articles on Abhidhamma and have a few > questions. This article is 'Introduction to the Dhamma' by Jill > Jordan and Richard Giles. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Introduction.html > > 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or elsewhere > to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta, one of > his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second only to the > Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the monks under > his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master it. In > this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down to us > intact." +++++++++++++ This is explained in detail in the first part of the Atthasalini (PTS). All 500 of these students became arahants. ++++++++++ > > 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as subtle and > 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great > elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), fire(temperature), and > wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the 28 classes > of rupa? +++++++++ Yes, they are also four of the eight inseparable rupas that arise together in every kalapa. +++++++++ > > 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and ill > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they seem > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately > want', to have wrong view? +++++++++ Cetana (translated as intention) comes in different intensities and its characteristic is hard to know. What we take to be intention is usually a mix of thinking, chanda, cetana, vitakka, vicara,manisikara, ekagatta etc. When there is wrong view there is always lobha(attachment) as well that makes one think they see things correctly. You can recognise how much cetana is there when it is very obvious. Take, for instance, the case of a visiting jehovah witness: they will talk and talk with great enthusiasm and confidence = it is wrongview and cetana is assisting to display it to the world. Even when wrongview is not shown to others cetana is there underlying the thinking and encouraging and supporting the associated factors. Useful to repeatedly investigate this as then it can be known, little by little, even when there is thinking with wrong view, that it is just various conditioned factors. This can be direct knowledge of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha or other factors. This is breaking down the 'whole', It is an aspect of seeing anatta ++++++++++++++ > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for food > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in > Christian countries over the centuries. ++++++ This is dependent on them forming kusala cittas based on hearing merit done in their name. best wishes robert > 10623 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:52am Subject: Re: Undertanding Metta - was([dsg] Re: Bangkok impressions 28/12/01-2/01/02) Hi Num, --- srnsk@a... wrote: > So then why in Visuddhimagga mentioned couple times that one shall start > to > practice metta toward oneself first and then directed outward? What do > you > think it meant by that? I completely agree with your points above but > I'd > like to see the subject in various perspectives. Christine replied with helped comments and examples.Rob K and I also discussed the Vism references in this post; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9461 I’d be interested to hear if you have any further comments. > Another point I'd like to add is bhramavihara also can be taken as an > object > (arammana) for every aspect of akusala (asava, ogha, yogha, gantha, > upadhana, > nivorana, anusaya,samyojana, and kilesa) as well. Good points as you elaborate later....also for (micha) ditthi...taking them for self. Of course they can also, like any other paramattha dhammas as I just discussed with Erik, be objects of satipatthana which of course, is the most useful of all. Appreciating all your other detailed posts, Sarah p.s. You can forward your photo requests to Sukin now;-) ==================================================== 10624 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] FYI Hi Erik, --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "m. nease" > wrote: > I > > meet today with the Wat Mahatat monks for a formal > > apology(!) for not having moved in there and taken > up > > their unusual meditation practice after my return > from > > Laos. It'll be a relief to have that over with, > at > > least. > > Hi Mike, > > I find this statement curious, given everything I've > been taught > there I have found to be in perfect accord with the > actual > instructions outlined by the Buddha in the > Satipatthana Sutta (any > teacher, as one of mine did, who begins a teaching > with the simile > of the raft, has my rapt attention!). Thanks for pointing out the way this message came across. It sounds (to me) like I was disparaging these really nice monks and their practice. That was not my intention at all--just looking forward to getting my (entirely necessary) apology over with. Thanks also for your snippets from the Anapanasati sutta. > What are your thoughts on all of this, Mike? Nothing original or worth posting here. Apologies all around again for the way my message came off. mike 10625 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 3:23am Subject: Visuddhimagga page 514 Dear Suan, For sure you cannot find any burmese sayadaw to support you.If you publish your view with the title -changing bhvanga within one life in burma.You will find yourself in big trouble. Read Nyanamoli visuddhimagga eng.page 514-our present bhavanga citta are taking past life gati or kamma nimmita as sign but not other objects during present life.Tran in that page--when the rebirth citta has ceased,then,following on whatever kind of rebirth citta it may be,the same kinds,being the result of same kamma it may be,occurs as bhavanga citta with that same object;and again those same kinds.,,,,,bhavanga is passive like river,,,,, All these points by buddhaghosa is enough to prove that bhvanga is the same kamma/gati nimita sign until we die.I do not care you still hold the wrong view. If you want to tran tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to get original tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think you will further mislead people for that translation. >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee >Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 15:47:15 -0000 > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > >How are you? > >You said: > >"I have read more pali than you,..." > >I am very glad to hear that you read both Pali and Burmese as well. >So I could analyse the Buddhaghosa's statement bit by bit for you. > >I have been away from Myanmar over 20 years. I have no contact with >our revered Myanmar Sayadaws. I am a lone researcher in Canberra with >Pali Chatthasangayana CD-ROM and dictionaries. > >Therefore, I am unable to give you the names of the Sayadaws or their >books. > >All I can do is read the Pali passages deeply and interpret them >using whatever knowledge I have of Pali grammar and dictionaries. > >But, before I analyse Buddhaghosa's statement in Pali, I strongly >advise you to read my translation of the Pali statemnt. That way, >you can even correct my translation if you found it incorrect. > >When you read my analysis, you will come to understand why I wrote >what I wrote. > >I wrote what I wrote from the strength of reading Pali statements >deeply, and analysing them. > >When you have read my post (10521), please let me know either on-list >oroff-list. Then I will analyse the Pali statement bit bit for you. > >With best wishes, > >Suan > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > > Dear suan > > I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one >burmese > > sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one >life.I have > > read more pali than you but i still haven't seen >buddhaghosa ,sumangala > > ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more >bhavanga in one > > life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana >regardless of > > bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in >burmese > > because i do read burmese. > > 10626 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong Hi Suan > Dear Ken > > How are you? k: Well and happy :) Since u have asked me a few times, I think its impolite not to reply you. Cheers :). > You wrote and asked: > > "k: I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas > could not be change throughout ones life. Do you have commentary > texts to substantiate your point." > > Yes, I have already provided the commentary Pali reference and > translation in my post 10521. > > In fact, you asked me questions by reading what I wrote and what I > quote in that post. Perhaps, you had been incoherent and forgot > things too soon. k: Oh, my friend always say I am like an old man, very forgetfull. I got another question. Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects do not change. Any reason for that? > So, please kindly read the post 10521 again to read the commentary > Pali and its translation which had been provided for the sole purpose > of substantiating my very point. k: The way you talk reminds of Wee in DL list ;-) Cheers and best regards Ken O 10627 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 5:21am Subject: RE: [dsg] The White Radiant Mind Hi Kom > > You have no disagreements from me in any of these 3 points. > I think I was using the two words somewhat interchangeably, > but I like your distinction between luminous and pure > better. So, what is your theory about the luminous citta? > One of 1 to 3 above? None of the above? Why? I know you > didn't quite like the commentaries' explanations well > enough. > > kom KO: I think there should be a distinction between luminous and pure. But I do not know how to describe it. We could have something bright that does not mean it has to be pure. Something like a pond of slit filled water does shine during moonlight even it looks with a dark background. KO: Abt luminous sutta. There are two possiblities either bhavanga cittas or kusala cittas. Actually I have to stand on commentary ground bc it is said by someone who has more panna than me. Even though there is inconsistency in its textual explanation between defining bhavanga citta and later on development of javana citta rather than bhavanga, I have to accept it bc it is from someone who is enlighted. Kind regards Ken O 10628 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Hi Nina > It is more useful to be aware of what appears, thus, we should not > neglect visible object, seeing, sound, etc. It depends on condiitons, sometimes there are conditions to think a lot, but this is not I who thinks. k: I think this goes a bit too far from anatta principle. By denying there is no existence of I to an extreme is like stepping into another deep pit while trying not to fall into another from atman. It is my intuition, I could not explain it. kind regards Ken O 10629 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:02am Subject: Invitation to join "Dhamma Times" E-Newsletter Dear Friends in Dhamma, The Dhamma Times Newsletter is a non-profit Dhamma sharing project brought to you by Panna Youth Centre's Cyber Ministry, our wish is to bring the latest buddhist news to your mailbox effectively through the internet highway as that the flow of awareness of Buddhist happenings all around the world will be at your hands. The Dhamma Times Editorial Group would like to take this chance to invite fellow Venerables, Buddhist Organisations, Fellow Dhamma friends to subscribe to our Dhamma Times Newsletter as to recieve the latest Buddhist News at your mailbox. To subscribe, simply send an email to DhammaTimes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com May the Buddha-Dhamma spread far and wide ! Yours in Dhamma, Dhamma Times Editor " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. 10630 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:11am Subject: Harvest E-Zine - 2002 January Edition The Monthly Harvest International Buddhist E-Zine H A R V E S T I N G SPIRITUAL SEEDS OF GROWTH |2002 January Edition| Issue #23 - Black & White |Panna Youth Centre,Singapore | Promoting Buddhism Amongst Youths | Happy New Year 2002 | P r a i s e t h e L o r d ! 1.0 From the Editor’s Desk 2.0 Feature: White & Black 3.0 Inspiration: Love is a wonderful thing 4.0 Sharing: From a Christian to a Buddhist 5.0 Sayings of the Buddha 6.0 Intercession & Prayer Requests 7.0 P.Y.C Announcements & Feature News 8.0 Quotable Quotes 9.0 About Harvest E-Zine -[ F R O M T H E E D I T O R ] Friends, if your Faith is stronger than the hundredfold in the past one year, then don't stop there ! I pray that Lord Buddha INCREASE YOU A THOUSAND TIMES and bless you in the coming year 2002 ! There you are - Lord Buddha offers great increase, according to your own faith level that goes along with your practice. "According to your faith, be it unto you". But are there any conditions? Of course there are. We have to have faith - that's obvious. We have to believe totally that we will receive what we ask for, but let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave driven and tossed by the wind…let not that man suppose he will receive anything from the Lord, however Lord Buddha always gave the chance and freewill of enquiry as described in the discourse of the Kalamas and that his His challenge to those who doubts his teachings. We also have to cultivate the seed we have sown in faith and put it into practise. Just as the farmer does when he sows his natural seed, we have to tend our newly planted Bodhi seed. We have to nurture it, fertilise it, and water it before it can germinate, grow and return to us a plentiful harvest. How do we water a spiritual seed? By prayer - and in particular, I believe, by praying with Faith, Compassion and Aspiration. When we pray "rivers of living Dhamma" flow out of us. This, I believe, is the very "living Dhamma" we need for watering the seeds that we have sown. Pray as much as you can, and watch it water, nurture, and cultivate that precious seed you have sacrificed so much to plant It is my personal belief that The Monthly Harvest operated by our Panna Youth Centre, led and inspired by our own "world-shaking and history-making" leaders, Our dedicated Editors and supporters, is one of the most powerful and effective forces for the growth and spread of the wonderful Buddha-Dhamma online in this technology highway. It is my absolute conviction that we are publishing much more than just a electronic magazine! We are all part of building something that will have wisdom, that will send out a resounding clarion call to the nations and be a crucial part of taking the Teachings of Lord Buddha to all the world as a witness to all the nations thorugh the internet medium. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let you requests be made known to Lord Buddha; and the peace of Lord Buddha, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through the teachings he left for us more than 2500 year ago. Wishing all a Happy, Joyous & Blessed New Year in 2002 ..... May our Harvest accompany you to march into another year with Love & Hope. Your Editor, Pst. Gerald Chen Hsiongcai Feature: -[White & Black] Imagine you need $200 to buy a new handphone. It is something that you wanted very much and you have at least 5 good reasons why you need one. Then one day you found a wallet in an empty fast food table in Orchard Road. There are $200 in the wallet. Here is the opportunity to get that handphone you wanted so badly. You are very tempted to take it but deep inside, you know you shouldn't. The right thing to do is to give it to the sales people behind the counter so that the owner can have a chance to recover it. You figured that you should allow the owner to have the opportunity to have it back because if that person is as poor as you, you are sure the $200 is a big deal to him. But you took a peek inside the wallet and found a gold credit card. You then figured that he is probably a well-to-do person, so $200 is not going to matter much to him. You conclude that it is then OK to take it. Is this the right thing to do? Why is it wrong to take the money if the person who lost it is poor but okay if the person is rich? Most people use situational ethics to make a decision of what is right and what is wrong. This is, of course, not correct - our law does not discriminate against certain group of people. It is very tempting to justify doing something that we know is wrong based on our own sense of justice. Like if someone hurt us, we may want to take it out on his family members to hurt that person. Or we may think it is OK to take home stationery from office because the company is big and rich. We may allow ourselves to illegally use softwares at home because the company who owns it is already earning too much money. And maybe it is OK to hurt someone because he has a reputation for being an exploitative person. This kind of reasoning and skewed sense of justice will lead to all sorts of trouble and tragedy, the worst in recent time being the tragedy that happened in September 11. In this world, we have all kind of war, tragedy, revolution and violence created by human people in the name of all sorts of reasons. We think we are getting more civilised and have learned from the mistakes of our past. But recent times have shown that we are not getting much progress in this aspect. The world may be too big for us to change and the human genome too complex to alter but we can decide not to be the one to start the madness. We can choose to see black as black and white as white - which is something we all have the capability to do. therefore, Lord Buddha help us if we decide to be more human and not behave like wild animals or be creatures without conscience.That is the Buddhist spirit of Love, Peace, Hope, Compassion and Aspiration we should all learn. [ Inspirational Story ] - Love is a wonderful thing The other day I had a Parent-Teacher Meeting with a mother of one of my students to discuss about her daughter's general progress. As the conversation progressed, she began to reveal how she discovered a change in her daughter. That the child was becoming more verbose, how peer pressure had turned her into… well, a teenager. One filled with teen angst.I have seen this happen a thousand times. Parents come up to me to moan about how they "do not understand their kids", how their kids had turned "from bad to worse" etc. If there were any angst, I would say it came from the parents themselves! On this occasion, however, this mother was not feeling angst. Instead, what aroused was love. Immense motherly love that was displayed in a parent who, though bewildered at her daughter's hormonal change, was still filled with immense motherly love for her. As she spoke about her daughter's whims, tears flowed down her cheeks. Lest you think it was pure frustration, you are wrong. Sitting across her, I could feel warmth. This mother was crying tears of joy at her daughter's obstinacy, her eccentricity and temperance! This mother truly loved her child unconditionally. This is not some Chicken Soup for Teenager's Soul episode. It is true. The thing is, in our Asian society, it is never easy to display positive emotions. Our forefathers were the pillars of our present success. Their strength lay in their austerity. This was passed on to their descendants and hence, laid the foundation for a typical Asian tradition. My parents were never allowed to be emotional because their parents never told them they loved them; neither did they hug and kiss my mum and dad. Instead, what my parents I must admit that I do possess some restrained emotional behaviour as well. For example, after being pushed away by my mother for holding her hand in public (I was 21 then), I have come to realise that public display of emotions is frowned upon. My parents never kissed me good night; in fact, as much as I can remember, they never kissed me - not even a peck on the cheek. My father did not even carry me when I was a baby. Fortunately, I did not turn out to be a screw-up kid, with pent-up feelings of neglect. On the contrary, I was able to see through this 'wall' that my generation of parents created with their children. I recognised love in perhaps, the most restricted form. Not that I am happy with it. There are occasions when I wish my parents were more expressive. But society is constantly evolving. I believe that my generation, when we become parents, it will be a whole new world. Because we have learnt it the hard way. Through numerous rebellious experiences, I have come to appreciate what my parents have done. At the same time, I have seen how my parents' way doesn't necessarily work. Teenagers and children nowadays complain about how their parents don't understand them. The term "generation gap" is an overexposed lexicon. But this gap is two-way. While you are busy lamenting about your parents, stop and think what you have been doing for them. A workshop I attended some time ago made me realise how arrogant I had been towards my parents. All this while I had been feeling sorry for myself about how they had never loved me. It was self-pity on my part. In so doing, I had failed to realise that I was the product of their love. Without them, what would I be today?So, the next time, you grumble about the naggings of your long-winded mother or the obstinacy of your stern father, accept it as their way of showing their love for you. No parent ever truly hated their kids. The words may not come out articulately. But actions do speak louder than words. Love is a wonderful thing - and it shows up in the most irrational form. Recognised as love was material - provision and support for the family. Because of this, my mum and dad, having grown up this way, believed that this was the best possible way to bring up their children. Buddha Bless all .... [ Sharing ]- From a Christian to a Buddhist Contributed by: Huang Weiwen (PYC Youth Ministry) Born in a family with Christian background, I was a pious Christian by then. I was often found involved in my church's activities and was sent by my parents to a Christian Centre to learn more about Jesus and Christianity. Even though I was enrolled into a Buddhist School later in life, my idea of Buddhism is just like many others: a Chinese Oriental religion filled with idols and supersititions. Chanting and prayers are part and parcel of my school life but I simply do it because I feel that I have to do it since this is a Buddhist School without really seeing the need. It is also through Lord Buddha's blessings that I got my first Buddhist Book from my teacher and I begun to read the book just like any other books and get to know most of the stories. My understanding of Lord Buddha is improving each day as I flip through the pages. However, becoming a Buddhist was not on my mind at that time partly because of several warnings given to me for becoming one. Before I came to know about Buddhism, I had a very hot temper and show little interest in my studies. I also don’t find the need to maintain a good relationship with my parents as well as my relatives. Misunderstandings and unhappiness strained our ties and I just cannot be bothered to apologise to them or acknowledging my mistakes. After my PSLE, I entered a non-Buddhist school. All the previous Buddhist influences seemed to subside. For the first time, I feel that I am being abandoned. Despite my ample Chirstian knowledge, I just cannot find answers to my questions concerning life and whenever I flip the Bible, but Lord Buddha spoke to me in a very personal way and I can feel His presence encouraging me. I begin to know some Buddhist classmates in my later years in the school and we meet up for some activities. I lied to them that I am a Buddhist because I fear that they might try to persuade me to become a Buddhist but the irony is that I really enjoy reading the Buddhist Teachings and praying together with them. One day, a Buddhist Youth member came to join our group to give us some Dhamma studies and as far as I remember the topic that day was ‘Put your Faith in the Buddha’. A strong sense of conviction feels my heart and I told myself, ‘I have found Him.’ I recognise that Lord Buddha is no longer a fable character to me but He has become real in my broken life. That evening, I prayed a simple prayer and received Lord Buddha into my life as my Teacher and Saviour. I kept this decision a ‘Top Secret’ because from my experience, to believe in Buddha is to seek trouble as far as my family is concerned. I started as an ‘underground’ Buddhist and have to pray in silence and read the my Buddhist Scriptures using textbooks as camouflage. An incident happened, when my aunt saw a Buddhist bookmark in one of my books and it is how the news that I became a Buddhist spread across my whole family. Serious objection begin by throwing away most of my Buddhist books and articles, questioning me of my new faith and also imposed curfew on me for fear that I might join a Buddhist Group.. Going out on weekends were extremely difficult at that time. My family kept on reminding me that I was Baptised by the holy trinity when I was barely an infant and also of the fact that I am the only male child of my parents. The ideas that Buddhists burning papers and participate in idol worship were the two main reasons for their strong opposition. Despite under persecution, I pressed on and asked Lord Buddha to deliver me from this horrible situation and continue to put my faith in Him. After I became a Buddhist, my family notices the change in my behaviour and views about life. From one equivalent to delinquent to one who easily loves and forgives. I used to scold vulgarities but now I have the help and strength from Lord Buddha to stop doing so. My studies improved tremendously and I am in favour with all of my teachers due to my exemplary behaviour and academic results. I used to fear death, hell and evil spirits but now all this fears are being removed and I have Lord Buddha's blessings with me and nothing can be aganist me ! Buddhist life for me is not a bed of roses. From the day I received Lord Buddha up till today, He has in place for me several tests of faith and I confessed that I did not pass most of them mainly due to my pride and unbelief. I seek Lord Buddha in prayer but find myself in doubt and I often ask Lord Buddha to revive me and to take away my doubts. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha to me is one Great leap of faith and I would want to continue my walk with Him in obedience and gratitude as I can recall how He has sought for me. Thank You Lord Buddha & all PYC for giving me this chance to share my testimony. -[ Sayings of the Buddha ]- Hate brings great misfortune,hate churns up and harms the mind; this fearful danger deep within most people do not understand. Thus spoilt one cannot know the good,cannot see things as they are.Only blindness and gloom prevail when one is overwhelmed by hate.But he who both day and night takes delight in harmlessness sharing love with all that live,finds enmity with none.When one with a mind of love feels compassion for all the worlds above, below and across,unlimited everywhere.Filled with infinite kindness,complete and well-developed, any limited actions one may have done do not remain lingering in one's mind. - The Buddha -[ Intercession ] Dear Lord Buddha, Thank you for the message which tell us that we need to have faith in you, especially in this coming new year. I take everyday as a new challenge for myself, I take every opportunity to praise your name, to honour you and to be bring Glory to you ! You are indeed my Lord, my Saviour & my refuge ! I know that my faith is always strong, and I pray that you will help me and bless me to share your word with others, especially those who has never heard of your name. In this new year, I pray for all my relatives, my friends, all those whom I have came across and those whom I do not know come to thine Glory. Lord, grant these people your Blessings, your guidance, Love them as much as you have loved me. You are worthy of my praise and refuge, you are strongly anchored deep within my heart ! Yes, nothing can shake me, not even the mountains and the rivers ... I pray for harvesting of your word to the nations, may your teachings pervade and flourish across the word surpassing all nations, races, cultural difference that everyone may come before you ! Lord Buddha, I pray that I will be dilligent in practising your teachings, to be pro-active in sharing your teachings with others, I wish you a Happy New Year even though you have reached the state of unsurpassed that no amount of years nor time can condition you. I pray for the welfare and happiness of all sentient beings, all living creature and everyone in the past, present and future. May my friends and enemies come before you and gain enlightenment as you had. In your Mighty name, I pray. Sadhu ! Prayer Requests - You can count on Panna Youth Centre's wishes all subscribers of Harvest E-Zine a Happy New Year 2002 Panna Youth Centre & it's management committee dedicates a goodwill prayer to our Youth Ministry Assistant Leader - Bro Kelvin Tan Song Hee for the passing away of his beloved grandmother, pray for Confidence, Healing and Reconcillation. Winston Wang dedicates a prayer for his brother under treatment, pray for healing. Kenneth Yong Wing Kay prays for his wife who is pregnant, pray for blessings to both mother,son and blessed birth. Juay Kwang, Lo Ngai Ping, Peter Quek and Emily Chew dedicates a prayer for Revival in spreading the teachings of Lord Buddha amongst Youths, pray for blessings. Tan Hau Ting of Malaysia prays to excels in his studies and walk firmly on the Buddhist Path in year 2002. PYC Youth Ministry members -Edwin Teo, Mervin Lau, Richard Seah, Doric Ang, Tan Kok Chye & David Wibobo dedicates a prayer of gratitude to Lord Buddha and all PYC members for the Love, care and concern for the past one year. Chew Hong Beng dedicates a new year prayer for all Raymond Bryan dedicates a prayer for strength and revival to spread and harvest the Buddha's teachings in year 2002. -[ PYC Annoucenments ] PYC’s Adult Ministry will hold fellowship sessions every Friday to discuss and share the Dhamma, if you are interested to join in, please call Sis Simin @ 96424123 or e-mail to pyc@s... for registration/enquiries. PYC’s Youth Ministry will hold Dhamma sharing sessions, Q & A sessions in coordination with our Band Ministry, if you are interested/enquiries, please contact Bro Zhihua at 97333406 or Bro Zhixian at 90058252 or e-mail to mengtat@h... / trygettngme@y... We welcome you to be our member ! Visit The Dhamma Times Daily Newsletter to look at latest Buddhist News all around the world @ http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DhammaTimes - Another Dhamma Project by PYC's Cyber Ministry. Are you in need of help? Do you need someone to comfort you and pray for you? "The Monthly Harvest" has a column for special prayer requests for our members, absolutely free! If you need us pray for you and your family, relatives or friends, just let us know by sending an email to pyc@s... We will be glad to offer you our help and assistance in your times of need, let us pray together. Recommended links : http://www.code4.org.sg & http://www.prajna.cjb.net Panna Youth Centre being a non-profit Buddhist Youth organisation greatly depends on the support of many, if you would like to make a pledge or donation to us, please kindly email to hsiongcai@y... for more information. For Singporean Subscribers, to recieve a weekly SMS Buddhist Quote on your handphone, please email to pyc@s... your number. Feature News from PYC Panna Youth Centre's Internal mailing list is at http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/pannayouthcentre <-Click here to join us and be our member ! Why not make your IE.5 browser start at http://www.prajna.cjb.net ? Click Internet Options under Tools, followed by Use Current and Apply with OK. Try it out- just click on the Home button anytime you want! [ Q U O T A B L E Q U O T E S ] A Leader is one who knows the way; goes the way and shows the way. - John Maxwell -[ A B O U T H A R V E S T E - Z I N E ]- "The Monthly Harvest" is a free international Buddhist-inspired E-Zine service hosted by Singapore’s Panna Youth Centre. Our subscribers receive an email with our articles, intercession; Dhamma quotes from the scripture, inspirational stories and PYC latest activities. To subscribe, simply send an email to: prajna-subscribe@yahoogroups.com You are also welcomed to view our Archives at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prajna/messages --------------------------------- Please forward your "Harvest" to your friends and relatives and let the Grace of Lord Buddha touch their lives today! --------------------------------- Copyrights @ 2001 Panna Youth Centre, Singapore. Jurong Point Post Office PO Box 15 (S) 916401 " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. 10631 From: Chen Hsiongcai Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:08am Subject: Invitation to join "The Monthly Harvest" Buddhist E-Zine Dear friends in Dhamma, "The Monthly Harvest" is a Buddhist-inspired free international E-Zine service hosted by Singapore's Panna Youth Centre. It serves as a fascinating and appealing way to reach out to the Buddhists living all around the world. We attempt to provide a monthly dosage of the Buddha-Dhamma through e-mails with Buddhist articles, inspirational stories, scripture quotations, prayer requests and the latest happenings & activities in Panna Youth Centre. Don't hesistate, get connected to us now and share this Good News with your friends today! To subscribe, simply send an e-mail to prajna-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Our wish is to spread the Buddha-Dhamma far & wide all across the lands ! Yours in Noble Dhamma, Panna Youth Centre Cyber Ministry Harvest Electronic Magazine 2002 " See the Truth & you will see Me" Buddha Visit http://www.prajna.cjb.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail. 10632 From: Yulia Klimov Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:34am Subject: Children and Parents Hello, Everyone I would like to know your opinion about one question I have. Life of our children depends on us. Does it mean, that we build their Karma? Are we responsible for their Karma? I have an example from my own life. I have divorced my husband, life with whom was hard for me. My son, who loves his father very much, suffers because of this. This brings my question, should I sacrifice my life to make my kid happier? Was my Karma escaping stupid life with my husband bringing suffering to my kid? Also, can parents somehow ease children's Karma? I mean, myself for example, after my practicing, I brought much mindfulness into my life (and to my children's life), it seems that they become different too. Or giving parents are the Karma of kids? And giving children are the Karma of parents? Thank you, Yulia 10633 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Hi Nina > Hence, for those of us who likes to identify (in words or > not), she mention that this is not fruitful (as it is > impossible to clearly see). She said (or came close to > saying) that instead of identification, seeing the lakhana > of the nama that knows (the previous object?) would help > with understandings more. Of course, unless one understands > why identification (and analysis) is not as useful, or sees > (perhaps) the lobha that comes with the > identification/analysis, then one continues to analyze... k: How do we define identifying. For eg. An unpleasant feeling arise. a. Does she (as you mention above) say that identifying means there arise a thought "I have an unpleasant feeling". b. Or does she mean "there arise an unpleasant feeling" without an I. To me there is nothing wrong with identifying as long as one does not falls into a. As describe in Satipatthana sutta "there arise an unpleasant feelings" as said in b, to me that sounds a kind of identification. Even being aware, there is already a presence of identification. Even studying it with wise reflecion, there already an identification just that the identification is not geared to a self or I. I think we cannot start investigation or reflection without idenfication to meanings even to the paramatha level (there is still identification). kind regards Ken O 10634 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 7:09am Subject: Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong Dear Ken How are you? You asked: "Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects do not change. Any reason for that?" I am afraid the objects might also change. The objects are simply those associated with what we do. If what we do caused the resultant mental aggregates to change as Buddhaghosa stated, those new mental aggregates would have at least what we did as their new objects. Please keep in mind firmly that bhavanga cittas are only the products of our actions, and impermanent and conditioned. Nothing mysterious involved here. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Suan > > > Dear Ken > > > > How are you? > > k: Well and happy :) Since u have asked me a few times, I think its > impolite not to reply you. Cheers :). > > > > You wrote and asked: > > > > "k: I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga cittas > > could not be change throughout ones life. Do you have commentary > > texts to substantiate your point." > > > > Yes, I have already provided the commentary Pali reference and > > translation in my post 10521. > > > > In fact, you asked me questions by reading what I wrote and what I > > quote in that post. Perhaps, you had been incoherent and forgot > > things too soon. > > k: Oh, my friend always say I am like an old man, very forgetfull. I got > another question. Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects > do not change. Any reason for that? > > > > So, please kindly read the post 10521 again to read the commentary > > Pali and its translation which had been provided for the sole purpose > > of substantiating my very point. > > k: The way you talk reminds of Wee in DL list ;-) > > > > > Cheers and best regards > Ken O > > 10635 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 7:46am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga page 514 Dear U Ong Teng Kee How are you? You wrote: "I do not care you still hold the wrong view. If you want to tran tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to get original tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think you will further mislead people for that translation." I am afraid you seemed to be worried too much by my posts and translations. If translating Buddhaghosa's own statements amounted to holding the wrong view, so be it. For your information and dhamma friends on this list, I have already translated Anguttara Tiikaa on Statement 49 on 27 December 2001. Now I nearly finished writing sub-subcommentary (Anutiikaa) on that Tiikaa. I will be able to post Tiikaa translation and my new Anutiikaa very soon. As I have Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM, I do not have to get another Tika original copy from Myanmar. I believe that the writers of Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM include many Myanmar Sayadaws. I try my best to learn from the Buddha, the commentators and the subcommentators, and share what I learnt with dhamma friends. And dhamma friends who read my works are mature thinkers and practitioners of dhamma themselves. And I do not think I can mislead them. And there is no good reason for me to mislead them, either. While I have sympthy for your desire to give the readers the right view and prevent them from getting the wrong views from my posts, the show must go on. Nothing can silence my voice now. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > Dear Suan, > For sure you cannot find any burmese sayadaw to support you.If you publish > your view with the title -changing bhvanga within one life in burma.You > will find yourself in big trouble. > Read Nyanamoli visuddhimagga eng.page 514-our present bhavanga citta are > taking past life gati or kamma nimmita as sign but not other objects during > present life.Tran in that page--when the rebirth citta has > ceased,then,following on whatever kind of rebirth citta it may be,the same > kinds,being the result of same kamma it may be,occurs as bhavanga citta with > that same object;and again those same kinds.,,,,,bhavanga is passive like > river,,,,, > All these points by buddhaghosa is enough to prove that bhvanga is the same > kamma/gati nimita sign until we die.I do not care you still hold the wrong > view. > If you want to tran tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to > get original tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think > you will further mislead people for that translation. > > > > > > >From: "abhidhammika" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Ong Teng Kee > >Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 15:47:15 -0000 > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ong Teng Kee > > > >How are you? > > > >You said: > > > >"I have read more pali than you,..." > > > >I am very glad to hear that you read both Pali and Burmese as well. > >So I could analyse the Buddhaghosa's statement bit by bit for you. > > > >I have been away from Myanmar over 20 years. I have no contact with > >our revered Myanmar Sayadaws. I am a lone researcher in Canberra with > >Pali Chatthasangayana CD-ROM and dictionaries. > > > >Therefore, I am unable to give you the names of the Sayadaws or their > >books. > > > >All I can do is read the Pali passages deeply and interpret them > >using whatever knowledge I have of Pali grammar and dictionaries. > > > >But, before I analyse Buddhaghosa's statement in Pali, I strongly > >advise you to read my translation of the Pali statemnt. That way, > >you can even correct my translation if you found it incorrect. > > > >When you read my analysis, you will come to understand why I wrote > >what I wrote. > > > >I wrote what I wrote from the strength of reading Pali statements > >deeply, and analysing them. > > > >When you have read my post (10521), please let me know either on- list > >oroff-list. Then I will analyse the Pali statement bit bit for you. > > > >With best wishes, > > > >Suan > > > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > > > Dear suan > > > I have no time to read your old post yet but can you give me one > >burmese > > > sayadaw saying that we can change our bhavanga at will in one > >life.I have > > > read more pali than you but i still haven't seen > >buddhaghosa ,sumangala > > > ,dhammapala,buddhadatta or ananda said we can have 4 or more > >bhavanga in one > > > life.There are possible for all kinds of kusala/akusala javana > >regardless of > > > bhavanga we are having.Just give me the sayadaw name /book in > >burmese > > > because i do read burmese. > > > > 10636 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 9:44am Subject: Re: non-self, to Victor. Hello all, I am interested to know if anyone can find a specific reference from the discourses in the Pali Canon in which the Buddha taught "there is no self who can do anything." Thank you. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "yuzhonghao" wrote: > Hello Nina, > > Thank you replying. > > Please consider very carefully about whether the Buddha taught "there > is no self who can do anything." Also, I would be very interested to > learn about some specific reference, if there is any, from the > discourse that would support view "there is no self who can do > anything." > > Regards, > Victor 10637 From: rikpa21 Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, Hi Sarah, > I can see you're back in form. I'd actually prefer the "formless" (or even better, the total cessation of the effluents), but I guess I'll have to settle for rupa at the moment :) > When I read any of the suttas, including > the Satipatthana Sutta, I understand the Buddha to be talking about > paramattha truths, whatever the terms and language used to express these. That is an interpretation I find difficult to reconcile with a very careful reading of the Satipatthana Sutta, unless considering only the paramattha dhamma of cetasika. I think it would be very helpful to provide specific instances of the objects of investigation you believe to refer to "paramattha dhammas" (in terms of "visible object," "hardness", etc.) arising through the five sense-bases, among the objects listed in the Satipatthana Sutta, and why you interpret them to refer to "paramattha dhammas." > There are a number of very helpful posts (imho) saved under `Concepts and > Realities' in Useful Posts: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Just taking this quote from Jon (at your sugestion on reading the "Useful Posts" section): Jon writes: "Concepts are dhammas in the sense that they are the object of cittas. But they can not be object of satipatthana since they are not sabhaava (`having an individual essence/extrinsic nature), and the function of panna is to penetrate the individual essence of realities." If you agree with this, then it appears we are at loggerheads in our understanding of what constitute valid objects of sati. How do you explain the Buddha's meditations on objects like the following in terms of "paramattha dhammas" (in the examples you've given so far such as "visible object," "hearing", "touching")? I do not see how the following reflects "paramattha dhammas", e.g. experiencing the "rupa" of blood, bile, phlegm, or shit, for example: "...A monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine." Either the objects of discernment here are "paramattha dhammass" in the sense you've indicated ("visible object," etc.) or they are not. I cannot see how contemplating the fact that one is composed of all these constituents is a direct apprehension of "ultimate realities". What the Buddha seems to be suggesting above perfectly accords with the methods of breaking things down into their constituents as a way of training to see how none of these things are "self." I see no need whatsoever to discuss "paramattha dhammas" at this level of analysis, just as the Buddha never discussed "ultimate realities" when using the analogy of the chariot, for example. > 2)Focus and `unbroken mindfulness' > > You often quote a translation using `focus' in the Satipatthana Sutta. Yep, not only due to the language of the translation, but also because in my own limited experience of the practice of sati, I've found that focus is a requisite condition for samma sati. Without focus, there is no development of mindfulness of what is present as it is actually present, since the untrained monkey-mind habitually scatters to the ten directions lacking an object of focus- -at least until the mind is well-trained. Note that I am not arguing against the idea that accomplished meditators possess the ability to note whatever arises. But that is one whose mindfulness is thoroughly enough established it remains undistracted even for a moment, and can observe with mindfulness and clear comprehension anything that arises through any of the sense (or mind) doors. > From the translation by Soma Thera we read: > > "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in > conciousness?" > " Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust; the > conciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, > as > with hate............" > > By contemplating consciousness (cittanupassanaa) is meant sati (awareness) Since we're nitpicking on linguistic definitions here, why not expand it a bit with the thesaurus definition of "contemplation"? "To have in mind as a goal or purpose: aim, design, intend, mean, plan, project, propose, purpose, target." Whoops! There seems to be an awful lot of "self" in these definitions, the notion of controlling! Better set that one aside, lest we fall into the trap of thinking we can have a goal, or purpose, plan, or target! :) > of > the cittas discussed. As we know from our abhidhamma studies, sati is not > unbroken or continuous but is a skilful mental state arising momentarily > with a specific citta (consciousnes) in the javana (`running- through') > process. Then why does this seem to directly contradict the Buddha's teaching on Right Mindfulness (from the Anapanasati Sutta): "On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse." How do you regard what the Buddha says here about mindfulness as a factor of awakening being "steady and without lapse", compared to sati merely being "a skilful mental state arising momentarily with a specific citta"? By way of personal preference, I prefer the direct words of the Buddha over other interpretations, since some appear to directly contradict the words of the Buddha regarding mindfulness as an enlightenment factor: "When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. This is, after all, where the proverbial rubber meets the road, as the seven bojjhangas (sati is being discussed in terms of the factors leading to enlightenment here) are indispensible prerequisites for awakening. > 4) Wishing > > While it's true that chanda (zeal) arises with wholesome cittas, it also > arises with all kinds of attachment and some kinds of aversion too (as > well as some vipaka cittas) now. We'd like to think that everytime we > consider nibbana and supramundane consciousness that this is skilful > `wishing', but for most of us, these are good opportunities for the > deceiving dhammas to play their tricks again. Most of this wishing is > merely more attachment. Only sati can know for each of us, I realise. Again, my point was that we can either attempt to cultivate kusala, no matter how imperfect it's guaranteed to be, or die from analysis paralysis--specifically failing to act out of obsessive fear of acting with the horrifying taints of self view or lobha (or dosa)! Again, since kusala arises so rarely in the first place, my contention is better to give it the best go we can, no matter how imperfect it is, than sit on our behinds out of excessive fear of "near enemies" and "deceiving dhammas" and so on. > 6) Rt Effort. > > Our understanding of rt effort will depend on our understanding of anatta > and of concepts and realities. My understanding of Right Effort comes from the Buddha, beginning at the simplest level of abandoning the unskillful and taking up the skillful: "And what, monks, is right effort? [1] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [2] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [3] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [4] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." This is a pretty simple formula, that when applied correctly, leads to all the other good stuff, like Right View. Even the Kalamas were suited for this sort of instruction--and no mention of anatta anywhere to be found! None of this is rocket science. Just applied good sense. Besides, deeper right view (of the sort that understands anatta) can't arise in the presence of coarse obscurations to begin with. > While we cling to an idea of self there is > bound to be an idea of control and of self making an effort rather than an > understanding of paramattha dhammas. Plenty has been written on this topic > under the same heading in Useful Posts. Not to be snide, but I have found the "useful posts section to reflect too little diversity to consider useful for my own purposes), but the teachings of the Buddha from the Suttas I have been able to test and verify in my own experience, as well as the similarly verified teachings tauight to me by my own teachers. All I can say is that simply based on my own testing I have found no benefit in discussing the Dharma using the terms of nama and rupa, paramatha dhamma, and the like. > 8) The `quick fix' > > You mention that you can get a result and increased mindfulnes in less > than two hours following a particular method. Of course it's natural to > want to find a quick method or short-cut, I believe you are attributing something on to my words I never said or suggested. I simply said that I noticed a drastic increase in sati, verified in my own experience, using the very simple method outlined by one of my teachers at Wat Mahatat. I said nothing to suggest anything resembling a "quick fix," only that it took me less than two hours of pratice to verify, conclusively, that the methods outlined do in fact work in helping establish samma sati, and extremely well at at that. Other methods I've been exposed top have failed to yiled similar results. Is it all in the accumulations, or is there more to it than that? > but I question whether the > profound Teachings and intricacies and subtleties of understanding the > present reality can be reduced to such a method. No one is suggesting such a thing. My training emphasizes the jhanas, practices like like metta bhavana, and intensive meditation on emptiness. > I don't doubt at all that > results are achieved from practices and methods (and know this is true), Indeed it is true. And the power of sati & sampajjana are not to be underestimated. So anything that aids the development of Right Mindfulness and unbroken concentration (as the Buddha recommended regarding sati as a factor of enlightenment) can only be a good thing. > but I question whether the result is awareness and understanding of the > paramattha dhammas which I believe the Buddha to have taught throughout > all parts of the Tipitaka. > Without clear intellectual understanding > initially as to what paramattha dhammas are, I would even venture to say > that this is impossible. You are of course entitled to your opinion. Of course where the rubber meets the rioad in this game is whether or not an approach leads to the permanent termination of suffering. This cannot be a matter of speculation, but must be verified directly in our own experience. May all beings be blessed with the great fortune of seeing things as theyu truly are! :) E. 10638 From: Lucy Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Dear Sarah Thank you for the warm welcome ! > I wonder > if your backwater is in England as I note you are using a UK server? If > so, may I ask where? I'm English too but I've lived overseas for 20yrs. North Wales actually, about 6 miles from the edge of Snowdonia NP. Best wishes Lucy 10639 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 0:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Welcome Lucy! Oh! how fortunate, living in the land of crisp and the cool! And I bet you've had rain. Swap you 35C, bushfires, flies, cockroaches and mosquitos for some cold and wet wet wet weather. I've had the airconditioning on full blast all night, it's just after 6.00 a.m., the cicadas are singing, the tank water is low and the dog is panting already..... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Sarah > > Thank you for the warm welcome ! > > > I wonder > > if your backwater is in England as I note you are using a UK server? > If > > so, may I ask where? I'm English too but I've lived overseas for > 20yrs. > > North Wales actually, about 6 miles from the edge of Snowdonia NP. > > Best wishes > > Lucy 10640 From: Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions <<<<<<<< Ø 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and ill > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they seem > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately > want', to have wrong view? +++++++++ Cetana (translated as intention) comes in different intensities and its characteristic is hard to know. What we take to be intention is usually a mix of thinking, chanda, cetana, vitakka, vicara,manisikara, ekagatta etc. When there is wrong view there is always lobha(attachment) as well that makes one think they see things correctly. You can recognise how much cetana is there when it is very obvious. Take, for instance, the case of a visiting jehovah witness: they will talk and talk with great enthusiasm and confidence = it is wrongview and cetana is assisting to display it to the world. Even when wrongview is not shown to others cetana is there underlying the thinking and encouraging and supporting the associated factors. Useful to repeatedly investigate this as then it can be known, little by little, even when there is thinking with wrong view, that it is just various conditioned factors. This can be direct knowledge of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha or other factors. This is breaking down the 'whole', It is an aspect of seeing anatta >>>>>>>>>>> Dear Chirstine, Hope you do not mind me putting two mails together in one post. About where to get dhamma books. I usually check them out from my university library. If you can get to any library websites, at my univ. they also link out to many libraries. Search functions on some website is very good, you can go by keyword of the name or author name. I do not know you can do this or not. This way you can the book pretty quick. They also can do inter-library loan for me as well. I usually try to read some part of it first before I decide which one I'd like to buy it into my collection. Another website in the US that have good dhamma books is http://www.pariyatti.com/ If I remember it right, it's located somewhere on the west coast, I think Seattle. Both English and Roman Pali version are available. Sarah gave me a site in the UK but I do not have it on hand. Let me emphasis just on how severe and pervasive of the wrong view, miccha ditthi. As Nina mentioned that everyone still can have potential to be subjected to wrong view except an ariya person, start with the stream enter, sotapana. Wrong view is a conditional dhamma, arises, sustains and ceases by conditions. I mentioned about garukamma in another post. Let me put some more detail about garukamma here, by Ven Narada Thera. ___________________________ 34. Garuka - which means either weighty or serious, may be either good or bad. It produces its results in this life, or in the next for certain. If good, it is purely mental as in the case of the jhánas. Otherwise it is verbal or bodily. The five kinds of immoral Weighty Kamma according to their gravity are: - (i) the creation of a schism in the Sangha, (ii) the wounding of a Buddha, (iii) the murder of an Arahat, (iv) matricide, and (v) parricide. These are also known as Ánantariya Kamma because they definitely produce their effects in the subsequent life. Permanent Skepticism (niyata miccháditthi) is also termed one of the Weighty Kammas. If, for instance, any person were to develop the jhánas and later were to commit one of these heinous crimes, his good Kamma would be obliterated by the powerful evil Kamma. His subsequent birth would be conditioned by the evil Kamma in spite of his having gained the jhánas earlier. Devadatta lost his psychic powers and was born in an evil state, because he wounded the Buddha and caused a schism in the Sangha. King Ajátasattu would have attained the first stage of sainthood if he had not committed parricide. In this case the powerful evil Kamma acted as an obstacle to his gaining sainthood. ------------------------------------------------ Garukakamma can be akusala or kusala. 1. Niyata michadithi means view that definitely gives result, predictably and certainly. As Robert mentioned this refers to wrong view, which always co-occurs with lobha. This view includes: 1.1 natthikaditthi, believing that there is no result., 1.2 ahetuka ditthi, believing that there is no cause. 1.3 akiriya ditthi do not believe in both cause and result. (In brief, lobhamulacitta ditthikatasampayutta 4 citta). 2. Anatariyakamma. Which is part of dosamulacitta 2 citta, citta that root in aversion as mentioned above. 3. Jhanacitta 9 citta. As mention about jhana above. Lokuttara kusala not included here b/c they lead to cessation of birth and dukkha (by seeing the ultimate truth, 4 ariyasacca. Anantariyakamma, even though it is very severe but it will come to the end one day. Contrast to wrong view because it is so subtle and pervasive, it can tie, divert and allure us indefinitely away from sammamagga and nibbhana. Again this what I got from what I have read. If you let me ask you for one thing : Do not take it without careful and wise consideration (yonisomanasikara). Best wishes, Num 10641 From: Lucy Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 1:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Thanks, Christine Yes, you can have all of this wonderful wet wet wet , and the cold, the wind and the dark winter days. All yours! (but it's not crisp, more like...soggy) My cat has lived under the duvet the past 2 months, maybe your dog wants to trade places too? Lucy 10642 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Having consulted the dog, he's decided to stay home - hates water, hard to even catch him for a bath. :-) Is it part of the human condition to always think the grass is greener elsewhere? Hope to see more posts from you, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Thanks, Christine > > Yes, you can have all of this wonderful wet wet wet , and the cold, > the wind and the dark winter days. All yours! (but it's not crisp, > more like...soggy) > > My cat has lived under the duvet the past 2 months, maybe your dog > wants to trade places too? > > Lucy 10643 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Thanks Num - have to leave for work now, so I'll print your post off and read it at lunch time. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > <<<<<<<< > > Ø 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 > > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem > > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things > > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I > > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and > ill > > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they > seem > > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately > > want', to have wrong view? > +++++++++ > Cetana (translated as intention) comes in different intensities and > its characteristic is hard to know. What we take to be intention is > usually a mix of thinking, chanda, cetana, vitakka, > vicara,manisikara, ekagatta etc. When there is wrong view there is > always lobha(attachment) as well that makes one think they see > things correctly. You can recognise how much cetana is there when it > is very obvious. Take, for instance, the case of a visiting jehovah > witness: they will talk and talk with great enthusiasm and > confidence = it is wrongview and cetana is assisting to display it > to the world. Even when wrongview is not shown to others cetana is > there underlying the thinking and encouraging and supporting the > associated factors. > Useful to repeatedly investigate this as then it can be known, > little by little, even when there is thinking with wrong view, that > it is just various conditioned factors. This can be direct knowledge > of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha or other > factors. This is breaking down the 'whole', It is an aspect of > seeing anatta > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > Dear Chirstine, > > Hope you do not mind me putting two mails together in one post. > > About where to get dhamma books. I usually check them out from my university > library. If you can get to any library websites, at my univ. they also link > out to many libraries. Search functions on some website is very good, you can > go by keyword of the name or author name. I do not know you can do this or > not. This way you can the book pretty quick. They also can do inter-library > loan for me as well. I usually try to read some part of it first before I > decide which one I'd like to buy it into my collection. > > Another website in the US that have good dhamma books is > http://www.pariyatti.com/ > If I remember it right, it's located somewhere on the west coast, I think > Seattle. Both English and Roman Pali version are available. Sarah gave me a > site in the UK but I do not have it on hand. > > Let me emphasis just on how severe and pervasive of the wrong view, miccha > ditthi. As Nina mentioned that everyone still can have potential to be > subjected to wrong view except an ariya person, start with the stream enter, > sotapana. Wrong view is a conditional dhamma, arises, sustains and ceases by > conditions. > > I mentioned about garukamma in another post. Let me put some more detail > about garukamma here, by Ven Narada Thera. > > ___________________________ > > 34. Garuka - which means either weighty or serious, may be either good or > bad. It produces its results in this life, or in the next for certain. If > good, it is purely mental as in the case of the jhánas. Otherwise it is > verbal or bodily. The five kinds of immoral Weighty Kamma according to their > gravity are: - (i) the creation of a schism in the Sangha, (ii) the wounding > of a Buddha, (iii) the murder of an Arahat, (iv) matricide, and (v) > parricide. > These are also known as Ánantariya Kamma because they definitely produce > their effects in the subsequent life. Permanent Skepticism (niyata > miccháditthi) is also termed one of the Weighty Kammas. > If, for instance, any person were to develop the jhánas and later were to > commit one of these heinous crimes, his good Kamma would be obliterated by > the powerful evil Kamma. His subsequent birth would be conditioned by the > evil Kamma in spite of his having gained the jhánas earlier. Devadatta lost > his psychic powers and was born in an evil state, because he wounded the > Buddha and caused a schism in the Sangha. > King Ajátasattu would have attained the first stage of sainthood if he had > not committed parricide. In this case the powerful evil Kamma acted as an > obstacle to his gaining sainthood. > ------------------------------------------------ > > Garukakamma can be akusala or kusala. > > 1. Niyata michadithi means view that definitely gives result, predictably > and certainly. As Robert mentioned this refers to wrong view, which always > co-occurs with lobha. This view includes: 1.1 natthikaditthi, believing that > there is no result., 1.2 ahetuka ditthi, believing that there is no cause. > 1.3 akiriya ditthi do not believe in both cause and result. (In brief, > lobhamulacitta ditthikatasampayutta 4 citta). > 2. Anatariyakamma. Which is part of dosamulacitta 2 citta, citta that root > in aversion as mentioned above. > 3. Jhanacitta 9 citta. As mention about jhana above. > > Lokuttara kusala not included here b/c they lead to cessation of birth and > dukkha (by seeing the ultimate truth, 4 ariyasacca. > > Anantariyakamma, even though it is very severe but it will come to the end > one day. Contrast to wrong view because it is so subtle and pervasive, it can > tie, divert and allure us indefinitely away from sammamagga and nibbhana. > > Again this what I got from what I have read. If you let me ask you for one > thing : Do not take it without careful and wise consideration > (yonisomanasikara). > > Best wishes, > > Num 10644 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 4:13pm Subject: What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... Hi All: Happy new year to all of you. For those I don't know my name is Jaran a real beginner. I have just spent my best new year holidays when I went back to Bangkok and listened to dhamma from many people in this group. One interesting subject I got out of this is how ~naana develops from sacca ~naana to kata ~naana. Please see if my understanding makes some sense. If not, here is your chance to do a very good deed: giving right understand as dhamma dana. What I also like to hear more is how nirodha kicca ~naana develops. Comments anyone? Good day from Singapore, jaran Three rounds of ~naana as I understand them: sacca~naana: understands the following: 1. Dhukkha (unsatisfactory, suffering) is to realize. Dhukkhas, all sa.mkharadhammas, are arising and falling away right now. There are to be 'studied', and there characteristics are to be realized. The sacca~naana develops as one listens to dhamma respectfully (attentively), considers dhamma and reflects on dhamma (that is, the study in the level of pariyatti). All these happen automatically as no one with right understanding can cause them to happen. The understanding of dhamma is not necessarily directly proportional to how much one has heard or read dhamma. Rather, it is due to accumulation and how much one can understand what one listens and read. The more sacca~naana develops, the firmer the understanding of dhamma. This intellectual RIGHT understanding automatically conditions one to study the actual realities appearing right now. As sati-sa.mpaja~n~na (right awareness and right view at the moment of satipatthana) arise to study characteristics of realities (the study in the level of patipatti), the kicca~naana begins to develop. The realization of the characteristics of realities that one has heard from a long time in turn makes dhukkha sacca ~naana -- the belief of the fact that there is actually dhamma to be directly experienced -- further developed. The more sacca ~naana strengthens, the more kicca ~naana develops. These two enhance each other as the degrees of understanding in both levels grow. We might say that the sacca ~naana is the direct result of pariyatti study, and the kicca ~naana is the results of patipatti study. We can also think of kicca ~naana as the result of sacca ~naana since there cannot be a direct understanding of realities with out intellectual understanding of dhamma. Similarly, vipassana ~naana(s) are results of both pariyatti and patipatti studies. The kata ~naana (literally meaning what to be done has be achieved) is also the result of the first two levels of ~naana. The same as the interconnected sacca ~naana and kicca ~naana, kata ~naana conditions both level of ~naana to progress. As each level of vipassana ~naana is reached, kata ~naana (along with the other two) little by little develops. And finally they are all perfected at the sotapattimagga vithi. Here kata ~naana is the result of pativeda study. Although there is room for debate here whether vipassana ~naana are considered kata ~naana since there is no direct evidence in the Tipitaka saying that, I would not worry about it too much. Because kata ~naana is a direct result of sacca ~naana and kicca ~naana and if the first two are correct, they will lead the right kata ~naana where ever it is which is conditioned by the understanding of the dhukkha appearing at this moment anyway.... And when that happens, it will be obvious to the developed wisdom. That completes the first (of four) three rounds of dhukkha sacca ~naana. 2. samudaya (attachment, cause of suffering) to be eradicate. The intellectual knowledge of the fact that all dhukkha arise from craving both directly and indirectly. Since the craving is cause of all this, the only way to stop the circle of arising and falling away of dhamma is to eradicate the craving and eventually the attachment. This is the samudaya sacca ~naana. This understanding actually can lessen the attachment at a very very minuscule level. As sati-patthana develops, samudaya kicca ~naana also develops causing the attachment to be chipped away little by little. One becomes less and less attached to both paramatha dhamma (and sa.mmutti dhamma) as sacca, kicca and kata ~naanas develop at each level of vipassana ~naana. The attachment to the idea of self (along with miccha tit.thi and the doubts in dhamma) is completely eradicated by samudaya kata ~naana at the sotapatti magga vithi. That is the first three round of samudaya ~naana. 3. nirodha (cessation of dhukkha) to make known. The cessation of dhukkha is deu to realization of Nibbana, an asa.mkhata dhamma. Don't quite understand how nirodha kicca ~naana develops, but I assume the kata ~naana is when the wisdom realizes the characteristics of Nibbana. 4. magga (path to eradicaton of dhukkha) to develop. Development towards cessation of dhukkha is to develop the 8-fold path. The path begins to develop at the moment one understand dhamma intellectually (when sa.mma ti.tthi, panna, a long with vitaka, viriya, sati and samadhi -- altogether only five). This is magga sacca ~naana. Again at the moment of satipa.t.thana all the five arise to perform their function at the level of kicca ~naana. At the each level of vipassana ~naana, all three ~naanas develop, and the strength of these five (always arise together) + 3 viratii cetasikas which never arise all three together (and other beautiful cetasika such as sadhaa, metta, karuna etc) also develop. They reach the highest degrees at the sotapattimagga vithii where all eight cetasikas coarise with Nibbana as the object. That the first three-round of magga ~naana. 10645 From: Jaran Jai-nhuknan Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 4:35pm Subject: My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi all: Below is another bits and pieces I was able to put together from the conversations in BKK regarding luminous mind. Please forgive me if my roman pali are not correct. According to a pali expert and A. Sujin, the word 'luminous' (in thai "bo-ri-suth") is from two different pali words: pandara and pabhassara. Pandara is refers to all cittas, wholesome, unwholesome, vipaka, bhavanga, kiriya because it is another name (of 11 or 13 names) of citta. Citta has many names because it can be consider in many different ways (aspects or nayas). Cittas are pandara because they are intrinsically pure (compared other dhammas such as cetasikas). Pabhassara refers to purity of citta because it is purified (from uppakilesa) as suppose to just its intrinsic purity. Below are some (probably incomplete) passages that bring about this conclusion. Each point begins with reference, then the rough translation, finally my understanding. 1. From Commentary dhamasa.mga.niiva.n.nanaa cittuppaataka.n.thava.n.nanaa, it says: In nittesavara, cakkhuvi~n~naana is said to be pandara because of its base, kusala citta is pandara because itself is pure, akusala citta is pandara because it 'flows' (comes) from bhavanga citta (which is pure, in the human realm), and all vipaka cittas are pure because of their bases (like that of cakkhuvi~n~naana). Here pandara refers to all cittas because pandara is one of more than 10 _definitions_ of citta. Above only emphasizes that cittas are pure (compared to cetasikas) in many different ways, and akusala cittas are pure because they come from pure bhavanga cittas. 2. From Commentary dhamasa.mga.niiva.n.nanaa cittuppaataka.n.thava.n.nanaa earlier on (before the above passage), it says: (The pali is the same as that provide by Suan.) Citta is called pandara meaning pure. Here pandara refers to bhavanga citta as in the passage: 'O monks cittas are intrinsically pure (*paphassara*), but they become defiled by upakilesa that come in.' Also, *kusala citta* are *pandara* because the come from the pure citta like Gangi river flows from Gangi river--meaning good water flows from good source. Here I think it is refering to pure bhavanga citta mention earlier in the same paragraph. Interpretation? : here pandara refers to only bhavanga and kusala cittas since no akusala and vipaka cittas are explicitly mentioned. Pandara refers loosely to only kusala citta but in the same way it refers to a kusala citta in # 1. 3. From Commentary manorathapura.nii angguttaranikaya ekanipatava.n.nanaa (book of one), it says: (The pali also provided by Suan.) navame paphassaranti pandara parisutdhi = paphassara means white meaning pure. cittanti bhavangacitta.m = citta here refers to only bhavanga citta Here it says that paphassara.m refers to only bhavanga. 4. Finally and most importanly, from uppakilesa sutta, anguttaranikaya pa~ncakanipatava.n.nanaa (book of five), the sutta talks about how *NOT* paphassara.m is like and why. I am sure Suan can provide pali for this. It says in summary, cittas become impure because of uppakilesa like gold is impured by other metals. This makes gold become unusable. To be useable all impurity must be removed. What are impurities of the cittas? kamachanta, phayapata, thiinamitdha, utdhaccakukkucca and vicikiccha. na ca paphassara.m = not 'luminous' papha.mgu ca = decaying cittassa = kusala citta in the 4 realms. Here it simply says that cittassa (cittas, purified from uppakilesa) are kusala cittas in four realms. What are the four? You all know that. What is the definite conclusion, then? We try very hard to interprete all the passages in this 84000 verses so that they are ALL in 100 % agreement. A. Sujin always says that it is almost impossible to do unless the reader understands what's the purpose of the passage and to whom it was intended, and it is impossible to know all that. Therefore, she said never take one passage (or part of it) and interprete it litterally and hold on to that interpetation. More importantly, she said one should know one's own limit of understanding. Here we are talking about bhavanga cittas which I doubt that will arise to be an object of satipatthana for one of us. Although citta is one of dhukkhas to be studied and known in the Four Noble Truths, there are other dhammas to be directly experience before bhavanga citta. Study concepts of dhamma is fun, challenging, and fulfilling, but don't forget that we are studying concepts of dhammas (this is probably different from what you have raised, Victor) so that we can experience them directly. As A. Sujin always says, study what you can understand [its characteristics]. This does not mean one should be selective of what to study, but it reminds all of us to look back and ask ourselves "can I understand this? Do I really, truely understand this? Does it help me study realities appearing right now? Do the realities appearing right now agree with what I just learned?". And when one succeeds in answering these questions honestly (being a phu-trong), one will gain real benefit from studying dhamma. She often ends the conversation regarding this topic by saying 'and one should be a phu-trong when it comes to the purpose of studying dhamma'. My point is...study what you can understand. The more you learn, the more confused and worried you are, then you are probably doing something wrong (hopefully not from the begining!). This mail is getting too long. Let's stop here. May wisdom grow upon you all. Jaran 10646 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 4:38pm Subject: Re: Children and Parents Dear Yulia, Truly each person has their own, individual kamma. Why were our children born to us, in this country etc? It was kamma that conditioned the birth. If they had not being born to us they would have been born elsewhere in a suitable plane to receive the results of the kamma they have done, good and bad When we help our children this can be giving - if it is not done purely with attachment - and we make new kamma, our own, that will bring its good results in time (to us, not our children). If you give a lot to your children this can certainly be good kamma - and by learning more about Dhamma it will be even easier to make sacrifices because you know that life is short and that it is wise to give up what you have and instead accumulate merit and understanding. The children will thus benefit from your developing confidence, but it is limited too by their kamma. Maybe you want to give more but reach the limit of your abilities whereas if they were had the kamma to be born in a deva world, for example, they can experience much greater pleasures. Then there are so many ways to help. Even smiling on them while they play means they receive pleasnnt object through the eyedoor for those moments... I think its very helpful to consider the kamma we are making now with our children. If we see the dangers of attachment then we are prepared when things go wrong and can help with less expectations. In the Buddha's time there were children who were born to ood and bad parents, just like now. One boy was born to a prostitute and since she had no use for a son he was discarded at a cemetary. He was found and eventually became adopted by a prince and later became enlightened. (I may have mixed some details here as there are several children like this with slightly different lives). Why such changes? Because of different kammas. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Yulia Klimov" wrote: > Hello, Everyone > > I would like to know your opinion about one question I have. > > Life of our children depends on us. Does it mean, that we build their > Karma? Are we responsible for their Karma? I have an example from my own > life. I have divorced my husband, life with whom was hard for me. My son, > who loves his father very much, suffers because of this. This brings my > question, should I sacrifice my life to make my kid happier? Was my Karma > escaping stupid life with my husband bringing suffering to my kid? Also, can > parents somehow ease children's Karma? I mean, myself for example, after my > practicing, I brought much mindfulness into my life (and to my children's > life), it seems that they become different too. Or giving parents are the > Karma of kids? And giving children are the Karma of parents? > > Thank you, > Yulia 10647 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 9:54pm Subject: Re: What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi All: > > Happy new year to all of you. For those I don't know my name is Jaran a > real beginner. I have just spent my best new year holidays when I went > back to Bangkok and listened to dhamma from many people in this group. > > > Good day from Singapore, > jaran +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Jaran, Very nice posts. Any chance of coming back to bangkok this weekend? I arrive on friday night and leave monday night. robert 10648 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) Hi Erik, Many thanks for your posts and careful attention;-) As I have limited time (and very limited wisdom;-), I hope you won’t mind if I quote from other posts as I address the first discussion on paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in the Satipatthana Sutta: --- rikpa21 wrote: >> S: > > When I read any of the suttas, including > > the Satipatthana Sutta, I understand the Buddha to be talking about > > paramattha truths, whatever the terms and language used to express > these. > E: > That is an interpretation I find difficult to reconcile with > a very careful reading of the Satipatthana Sutta, unless > considering only the paramattha dhamma of cetasika. I think > it would be very helpful to provide specific instances of the > objects of investigation you believe to refer to "paramattha > dhammas" (in terms of "visible object," "hardness", etc.) arising > through the five sense-bases, among the objects listed in the > Satipatthana Sutta, and why you interpret them to refer to > "paramattha dhammas." Let’s see how far we can agree here: ***** 1. Concepts are used for convenience in the Suttas: “The majority of Sutta texts, however, use the conventional language, as appropriate in a practical or ethical context, because it "would not be right to say that 'the groups' (khandha) feel shame, etc." “ (Nyantiloka dict) ***** 2. Only with an understanding of paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) can the distinction between these and conventional realities be known: “The two truths - ultimate and conventional - appear in that form only in the commentaries, but are implied in a sutta-distinction of 'explicit (or direct) meaning' (nítattha, q.v.) and 'implicit meaning (to be inferred)' (neyyattha). Further, the Buddha repeatedly mentioned his reservations when using conventional speech, e.g. in D. 9: "These are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Perfect Qne (Tathágata) uses without misapprehending them." See also S. I. 25.” (Nyantiloka dict.) ***** 3. This is no simple matter: “Ultimate realities are so subtle and profound that an ordinary person cannot see them. His mind is obscured by concepts. Only by means of wise attention to things (yoniso manasikara) can one see beyond the concepts.” (Abhidamattha Sangaha) From Rob K’s post 7436: Rob K: “In the 'Discourse to Vacchagotta on Fire' (Aggi- Vacchagotta-sutta, Majjhima Nikaya II, Paribbajaka-vagga)the Buddha said to Vacchagotta: "".. this dhamma is deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful, excellent, beyond dialectic, subtle, intelligible to the wise;.."" The Atthasalini refers to (translated as the Expositor p31)those monks who know sutta but don't know Abhidhamma "the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view" It notes that this is because the suttas use conventional language. If one doesn't have clear understanding of the difference between conventional truth and paramattha dhammas this is bound to happen.” ***** 4..Not only are we shown specifically in the Abhidhamma what paramattha dhammas are that should be known, but also repeatedly in the Suttas: '"One speaks of 'the world,' Lord. In how far is there are world or the designation 'world'?" "When there is the eye and visible forms, visual consciousness and things cognizable by visual consciousness; when there is the ear and sounds...; nose and smells...; tongue and flavours...; body and tangibles...; mind and ideas, mind- consciousness and things cognizable by mind-consciousness--then there is a world and the designation 'world'."'[SN 35:68] '"'All' will I show you, O monks. And what is 'all'? The eye and visible forms, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and flavors, mind and ideas--this, O monks, is what is called 'all'."' [SN35:22]" ***** 5. These realities can only be known through the development of wisdom and Satipatthana The Satipatthana Sutta should be understood with all these points in mind: Extract from Jon’s post 10011: Jon: “The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the ‘rupas’ section and the ‘mind object’ section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a ‘dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). “ ***** 6. The section on kaayaanupassanaa (mindfulness of body) only refers to rupas as objects of sati. May I just stress that walking, eating, defacating, sleeping are merely concepts which do not refer to realities which can be known. While, walking, eating and so on, there are, however, realities to be known: Extract from Rob K’s post 7436: Rob K: “Now about the meaning of 'Body' in the satipatthana sutta quoted above and what awareness of the 'body' means. Here is a section from the attahakatha to the satipatthana sutta . """"The Buddha, after dealing in the aforesaid manner with body- contemplation in the form of respiration-meditation, in detail, said: "And further," in order to deal exhaustively with body- contemplation, here, according to the meditation on the modes of deportment [iriyapatha]. Gacchanto va gacchamiti pajanati = "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken. "" " ***** 7. The reason that we read about the different postures and activities is to emphasise how it is not a matter of a special time and place, but that in fact satipatthana can develop at any time and in any position if there is the correct intellectual understanding first: Extract from Jon’s post 7429: Jon: “In fact, although the section on contemplation on the body in the sutta talks in term of different bodily postures, activities, cemetery contemplations etc (ie. in terms of conventional situations), the underlying meaning according to the commentary is all rupa-dhammas, the dhammas that comprise the first khandha. Indeed, the 4 Foundations between them refer to all the 5 khandhas (ie all paramattha dhammas that are subject to clinging). The commentary says on this (p. 119) -- "In the contemplation on the body, the laying hold of the aggregate of corporeality or materiality was spoken of by the Master; in the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the aggregate of consciousness; and now [ie. in the contemplation on mental objects] … the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations, …". The rupa-kkhandha includes of course not only the rupas that we take for our own body, but all rupas that are experienced through the various doorways. Most importantly, it refers to realities that are arising at the present moment, not at any other time. It is not necessary to 'choose' one or other of the 4 Foundations as the focus for contemplation. If there is awareness of any reality appearing at the present moment, that awareness is a moment of the development of (one or other of) the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness as taught in the Satipatthana Sutta. I hope this has given some idea of how careful we should be in taking parts of suttas at their face value, without reference to the whole sutta and its commentaries.” ***** 8. Finally, a summary of satipatthana and its prerequisites for development: Extract from Jon’s post 5718 Jon: "Satipatthana is the development of awareness/mindfulness of a reality appearing at the present moment. The prerequisites for the arising of awareness are: - having met the dhamma, listened to it and considered it at length - having understood correctly what awareness is, its function and characteristic and what can be the object of awareness - applying what one has heard and correctly understood. The main obstacle to the arising of awareness is not recognising one’s wrong view about its development." ***************** Erik, I think your other points will have to wait for a rainy day and I may add that here in Hong Kong, we’re having beautiful cool, sunny, crisp days;-)) Thanks again for all your other careful considerations and comments. I've found it helpful to spend another lunch-hour talking to you and hope you find some comments or quotes of value. Sarah ====================================================== 10649 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 11:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana Dear Manji, --- manji wrote: > Originally I had asked Sarah if there could be the arising of domanassa > (unpleasant feeling) without dosa (aversion). > > Sarah asked to open this into the group... I post the following for > debate... Thanks, Manji. Good to hear from you. I've been receiving quite a few questions, comments and articles off-list and I would just like to encourage everyone to send them here unless there is anything especially personal or confidential;-) > Lobha-mula-citta can only be accompanied by somanassa or uppekha. > There may be somanassa or uppekha without lobha-mula-citta. > > Dosa-mula-citta can only be accompanied by domanassa. OK so far;-) > There may be domanassa without dosa-mula-citta. Whenever there is domanassa (unhappy feeling) there is bound to be dosa (aversion). They always arise together and are hard to distinguish. > If it is true that domanassa is always accompanied by dosa-mula-citta, > then the there is no cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is > no buddha, and there is no sangha. I'd put it the other way round and say that dosa-mula-citta (i.e. consciousness rooted in aversion) is always accompanied by domanassa (unhappy feeling). To be more specific, there are two kinds of dosa-mula-cittas. Both kinds are accompanied by domanassa and arise with patigha (anger). One kind is prompted and the other kind is unprompted. I don't see how the rest of your sentence follows. > If it is true that domanassa is never accompanied by dosa-mula-citta, > then there is no suffering, there is no cause of suffering, there is no > cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is no buddha, and there > is no sangha. > > If it is true that domanassa may be unaccompanied by dosa-mula-citta, > then this accounts for the suffering, the cause of suffering, the > cessation of suffering, the path, the buddha, and the sangha. So dosa and domanassa arise together. There are different meanings of suffering. In the 4NT it refers to the impermanent nature of all realities which are ultimately unsatisfactory. I think you need to explain more as I may be missing your point. =============== Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) c) happy feeling (somanassa) d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. More details can be found in 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' and in 'Cetasikas', both by Nina and to be found on these websites: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.dhammastudy.com/ When I read the messages about the weather I was reminded of a quote from the Atthasalini which Nina uses in 'Cetasikas'. She's writing about how dosa (and therefore domanassa too) arises 'on account of any object experienced through one of the six doors.' she continues: 'One may even be cross with the rain, the sun or the wind. We read in the Atthasalini (11, Book 11, Part 11, summary, Ch 11, 367): ..."Or when vexation (springs up) groundlessly" means anger without reason; for example, someone gets angry saying "it rains too much", "it does not rain", "the sun shines too much", "it does not shine"; gets angry when the wind blows, when it does not blow, gets angry at being unable to sweep away the Bodhi leaves, at being unable to put on his robe; he gets angry with the wind, in slipping he gets angry with a tree-stump..." ***** This may ring a few bells;-) Best regards, Sarah =============================================== 10650 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 2:28am Subject: Re: Elementary questions Thanks for your reply Robert. Just a question about 'characteristics'. You mention that characteristic of cetana is hard to know, and that there can be direct knowledge of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha. Are these 'characteristics' listed, taught or discussed anywhere that I can learn more about them? And I think I need to read a little about 'merit done in their name' - it is an idea that is unfamiliar and strange to me. Both Num and you mentioned Wrong View, so I had another look at the Sammaditthi Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/maj/mn9.htm 'The Discourse on Right View' - it seems more complex than my first reading, packed with several layers of meaning...... I have heard about 'mundane' and 'supramundane' right view. This Sutta doesn't seem to mention them directly (?), though the repetition of the term 'Noble disciple" seems to imply someone with more understanding than the average, ordinary person. A few questions on verses 3 - 7 The Wholesome and the Unwholesome Killing living beings is unwholesome - what would be the difference between say, regularly buying meat at the shop where the animal/fish/fowl was not specifically killed for you, and using a surface spray that may kill cockroaches who wander by days/weeks later. Are the cockroaches deaths 'killing' or 'death by misadventure'? Misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome - The morals and mores of societies and cultures differ and also change with the passing of time. 'Misconduct' appears a very broad and vague term...not like, for instance, the explicit prohibition 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' of the Christian ten commandments. How are we to conduct our lives without more clarity and guidance on what are wholesome/unwholesome actions in this regard? Wouldn't the same 'rules' have to apply through the ages for Kamma to be 'fair'. Taking what is not given is unwholesome. How far does 'taking what is not given' extend? I read somewhere recently that 'taking what is not given' could be extended to mean even things like - unless the hen brought an egg to you and bowed and presented you with it, then you were 'taking what was not given' if you kept hens for the purpose of obtaining eggs. I expect this could also be extended to milk and honey and all animal life..... I realise that the form the Sutta takes is due to its being passed down in an oral tradition. Still, somehow, a feeling of comfortable and caring friendship seems to pervade this Sutta. As a child, I had an uncle who would tell my cousins and I stories - we would be hanging off every word and he would stop at critical points in the narration - we'd all say '...and what happened then Uncle....did you ever find the way out?' etc. Uncle would way 'Well, I might have....' and take a sip of tea or a puff of his pipe before going on with the story. Sariputta's teaching style reminds me of my Uncle - keeping them interested and wanting to hear more - not continuing until asked. They ask: "But friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." And Sariputta replies: "There might be" At the end it says "That is what the Venerable Sariputta said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Venerable Saritputta's words." ....... And so was I. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > > > > 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 > > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem > > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things > > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I > > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and > ill > > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they > seem > > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately > > want', to have wrong view? > +++++++++ > Cetana (translated as intention) comes in different intensities and > its characteristic is hard to know. What we take to be intention is > usually a mix of thinking, chanda, cetana, vitakka, > vicara,manisikara, ekagatta etc. When there is wrong view there is > always lobha(attachment) as well that makes one think they see > things correctly. You can recognise how much cetana is there when it > is very obvious. Take, for instance, the case of a visiting jehovah > witness: they will talk and talk with great enthusiasm and > confidence = it is wrongview and cetana is assisting to display it > to the world. Even when wrongview is not shown to others cetana is > there underlying the thinking and encouraging and supporting the > associated factors. > Useful to repeatedly investigate this as then it can be known, > little by little, even when there is thinking with wrong view, that > it is just various conditioned factors. This can be direct knowledge > of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha or other > factors. This is breaking down the 'whole', It is an aspect of > seeing anatta > ++++++++++++++ > > > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes > > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for > food > > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food > left > > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my > > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to > > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in > > Christian countries over the centuries. > ++++++ > This is dependent on them forming kusala cittas based on hearing > merit done in their name. > best wishes > robert > > 10651 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Dear Num, Thanks for the ideas about the books. I'll look into them. Only one of the Universities in South East Queensland offers any Buddhism subjects at all - and that consists of Introductory and Advanced Pali, Introductory and Advanced Sanscrit, A General Buddhism subject, and a Meditation subject. So I'm not hopeful, but I'll try Government Libraries as well. The main problem is my lack of patience..... I have no idea why after ordering books delivery takes so long..... Yes, I do take notice of what you emphasise - that wrong view is severe and pervasive. The posts from RobertK and yourself led me to search for more information on miccha ditthi in the Sammaditthi Sutta (as mentioned in my post to Robert), and I came across an extract from Ch. 16 of Cetasikas http://www.zolag.co.uk/wroa.html "What is Wrong View (Ditthi)" which states that wrong view should be regarded as the 'highest fault', and that it is dangerous because it can lead to many kinds of evil. Thanks for more information about garukamma - I saw your first post mentioning it, I am VERY slow with Pali, but I struggle through. I have ordered a pali/english dictionary from Amazon......I know there are several easily accessible on the Net, but often I need one when I am not at my computer. I guess Pali is an acquired taste - but Buddhists are not going to stop using it just because I find it daunting. :-) Thanks for your help, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > <<<<<<<< > Dear Chirstine, > > Hope you do not mind me putting two mails together in one post. > > About where to get dhamma books. I usually check them out from my university > library. If you can get to any library websites, at my univ. they also link > out to many libraries. Search functions on some website is very good, you can > go by keyword of the name or author name. I do not know you can do this or > not. This way you can the book pretty quick. They also can do inter-library > loan for me as well. I usually try to read some part of it first before I > decide which one I'd like to buy it into my collection. > > Another website in the US that have good dhamma books is > http://www.pariyatti.com/ > If I remember it right, it's located somewhere on the west coast, I think > Seattle. Both English and Roman Pali version are available. Sarah gave me a > site in the UK but I do not have it on hand. > > Let me emphasis just on how severe and pervasive of the wrong view, miccha > ditthi. As Nina mentioned that everyone still can have potential to be > subjected to wrong view except an ariya person, start with the stream enter, > sotapana. Wrong view is a conditional dhamma, arises, sustains and ceases by > conditions. > > I mentioned about garukamma in another post. Let me put some more detail > about garukamma here, by Ven Narada Thera. > > ___________________________ > > 34. Garuka - which means either weighty or serious, may be either good or > bad. It produces its results in this life, or in the next for certain. If > good, it is purely mental as in the case of the jhánas. Otherwise it is > verbal or bodily. The five kinds of immoral Weighty Kamma according to their > gravity are: - (i) the creation of a schism in the Sangha, (ii) the wounding > of a Buddha, (iii) the murder of an Arahat, (iv) matricide, and (v) > parricide. > These are also known as Ánantariya Kamma because they definitely produce > their effects in the subsequent life. Permanent Skepticism (niyata > miccháditthi) is also termed one of the Weighty Kammas. > If, for instance, any person were to develop the jhánas and later were to > commit one of these heinous crimes, his good Kamma would be obliterated by > the powerful evil Kamma. His subsequent birth would be conditioned by the > evil Kamma in spite of his having gained the jhánas earlier. Devadatta lost > his psychic powers and was born in an evil state, because he wounded the > Buddha and caused a schism in the Sangha. > King Ajátasattu would have attained the first stage of sainthood if he had > not committed parricide. In this case the powerful evil Kamma acted as an > obstacle to his gaining sainthood. > ------------------------------------------------ > > Garukakamma can be akusala or kusala. > > 1. Niyata michadithi means view that definitely gives result, predictably > and certainly. As Robert mentioned this refers to wrong view, which always > co-occurs with lobha. This view includes: 1.1 natthikaditthi, believing that > there is no result., 1.2 ahetuka ditthi, believing that there is no cause. > 1.3 akiriya ditthi do not believe in both cause and result. (In brief, > lobhamulacitta ditthikatasampayutta 4 citta). > 2. Anatariyakamma. Which is part of dosamulacitta 2 citta, citta that root > in aversion as mentioned above. > 3. Jhanacitta 9 citta. As mention about jhana above. > > Lokuttara kusala not included here b/c they lead to cessation of birth and > dukkha (by seeing the ultimate truth, 4 ariyasacca. > > Anantariyakamma, even though it is very severe but it will come to the end > one day. Contrast to wrong view because it is so subtle and pervasive, it can > tie, divert and allure us indefinitely away from sammamagga and nibbhana. > > Again this what I got from what I have read. If you let me ask you for one > thing : Do not take it without careful and wise consideration > (yonisomanasikara). > > Best wishes, > > Num 10652 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga page 514 Suan , Again you show your poor knowledge about pali.The original tika on angutara by dhammapala have one copy only in burmese script in first 3 nipata only.It is not edited into book but in leaves.The india chattasanagayana cdrom do not have variant readings in the original book for com and subcom.Myanmar have their own cdrom with all variant readings on it.The books is still a must.See PTS anguttara tika which have more readings than the myanmar one.You do not dare to mention your wrong view about bhavanga.It this your pride problem??? Teng Kee >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga page 514 >Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:46:55 -0000 > > > >Dear U Ong Teng Kee > >How are you? > >You wrote: > >"I do not care you still hold the wrong view. If you want to tran >tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to get original >tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think you will >further mislead people for that translation." > >I am afraid you seemed to be worried too much by my posts and >translations. > >If translating Buddhaghosa's own statements amounted to holding the >wrong view, so be it. > >For your information and dhamma friends on this list, I have already >translated Anguttara Tiikaa on Statement 49 on 27 December 2001. Now >I nearly finished writing sub-subcommentary (Anutiikaa) on that >Tiikaa. I will be able to post Tiikaa translation and my new >Anutiikaa very soon. > >As I have Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM, I do not have to get another >Tika original copy from Myanmar. I believe that the writers of >Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM include many Myanmar Sayadaws. > >I try my best to learn from the Buddha, the commentators and the >subcommentators, and share what I learnt with dhamma friends. And >dhamma friends who read my works are mature thinkers and >practitioners of dhamma themselves. And I do not think I can mislead >them. And there is no good reason for me to mislead them, either. > >While I have sympthy for your desire to give the readers the right >view and prevent them from getting the wrong views from my posts, the >show must go on. Nothing can silence my voice now. > > >With best wishes, > >Suan > >http://www.bodhiology.org > 10653 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Num, > > Thanks for the ideas about the books. I'll look into them. If you decide to buy any of the books, you may try the following which we use: Pali Text Society (PTS) texts direct from PTS.....catalogue on webpage. If you become a member, you get a discount and free book. Buddhist Publication Society (BPS) direct (can be v.slow or out of print) or some of the texts are available from: Amazon Books.....very fast and efficient (different categories of posting for the patient and impatient) Wisdom Books...similar, but I think we've only used Amazon All the urls can be found in the bookmarks on the dsg homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links Sorry to be a little vague. If you're putting in an order at Wisdom Books (maybe Amazon too?), I highly recommend Nina VG's 'Buddhism in Daily Life'. (We were looking for a copy at the Foundation for you but they were out of stock there). Hope you liked the Atth quote in my post to Manji.....we can see how universal and timeless the Teachings are.....when I talked to my mother on the phone at the weekend, almost half the conversation was about the weather.....but then we are English;-) Good to see all your interesting questions to Rob K Sarah =================================================== 10654 From: Ong Teng Kee Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong Dear Ken, It is up to you to follow suan 's view that we are having changing bhavanga or follow the tradisional text book by buddhaghosa.Use you wisdom to think. >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong >Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:09:14 -0000 > > > >Dear Ken > >How are you? > >You asked: > >"Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects >do not change. Any reason for that?" > >I am afraid the objects might also change. > >The objects are simply those associated with what we do. If what we >do caused the resultant mental aggregates to change as Buddhaghosa >stated, those new mental aggregates would have at least what we did >as their new objects. > >Please keep in mind firmly that bhavanga cittas are only the products >of our actions, and impermanent and conditioned. > >Nothing mysterious involved here. > >With best wishes, > >Suan > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Suan > > > > > Dear Ken > > > > > > How are you? > > > > k: Well and happy :) Since u have asked me a few times, I think >its > > impolite not to reply you. Cheers :). > > > > > > > You wrote and asked: > > > > > > "k: I thought in this list, the assumption was that bhavanga >cittas > > > could not be change throughout ones life. Do you have commentary > > > texts to substantiate your point." > > > > > > Yes, I have already provided the commentary Pali reference and > > > translation in my post 10521. > > > > > > In fact, you asked me questions by reading what I wrote and what >I > > > quote in that post. Perhaps, you had been incoherent and forgot > > > things too soon. > > > > k: Oh, my friend always say I am like an old man, very >forgetfull. I got > > another question. Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the >objects > > do not change. Any reason for that? > > > > > > > So, please kindly read the post 10521 again to read the >commentary > > > Pali and its translation which had been provided for the sole >purpose > > > of substantiating my very point. > > > > k: The way you talk reminds of Wee in DL list ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers and best regards > > Ken O 10655 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 4:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Dear Suan, Nina, Ken O, Sarah, and Num, I believe this passage can also be read from B. Nanamoli's Path to Purification, under Purification by Overcoming Doubt, XIX, 18, page 621, passage 16. I will quote the entire passage below: [16] Another fourfold classification of kamma is this: productive, consolidating, frustrating, and supplanting. Herein, (ix) what is called productive is both profitable and unprofitable. It produces the material and immaterial aggregates both at rebirth linking and during the course of an existence. (x) Consolidating kamma cannot produce result, but when result has already been produced in the provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, it consolidates the pleasure or pain that arises and makes it last. (xi) and when result has already been produced in the provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, frustrating kamma frustrates and obstructs the pleasure or pain that arises and does not allow it to last. (xii) Supplanting kamma is itself both profitable and unprofitable; and it supplants other, weaker kamma, prevents it resulting and usurps that kamma's opportunity in order to cause it own result. But when the opportunity has thus been furnished by the [other] kamma, it is that [supplanting kamma's] result that is called arisen. There are two notes associated with this section that might be of interests: [4] '"Productive" kamma is what produces resultant continuity by providing rebirth-linking and so on. "Consolidating" kamma prolongs the occurence of the continuity of pleasure or pain, or the endurance of materiality. "Frustrating" kamma slowly diminishes the endurance of pleasure or pain when they occur. It cuts off the result of other kamma without giving any result of its own. "Supplanting" kamma, however, cuts off weak kamma and makes its own result arise. This is their difference' (Pm. 771). [5] See the various meanings of 'arising' given in Ch. XXII, 81f 'Another method is this: when some kamma has been done and there is, either in rebirth-linking or in the course of existence, the arising of material instances due to the result of kamma performed, that kamma is "productive". When some kamma has been performed and the desirable or undesirable fruit generated by other kamma has its production facilitated and its endurance aided and lengthened by the suppression of conditions that would interfere with it and by the arousing of conditions that would strengthen it, that kamma is "supporting". Whe some kamma has been performed and profitable fruit or unprofitable fruit generated by productive kamma is obstructed by it respectively in the form of sickeness or of disquieting of elements, that is "frustrating" kamma. But when some kamma has been done by which the fruit of other kamma is ruined and cut off by being supplanted by what cuts it off although it was fit for longer endurance because of the efficacy of the kamma tha was producing it, that kamma is "supplanting"' (Pm. 772) kom > -----Original Message----- > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:24 AM > 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti > akusalampi. Tam > patisandhiyampi pavattepi > ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy > action. It (janaka > kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > aggegates to arise > either at the moment of linking consciousness > (conception) or during > the current lifetime." 10656 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 4:42am Subject: RE: [dsg] Memory, Objects, and Continuity Dear Jonothan, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > > > I have been reading lakkhanaticcatuka, (four characters: > > {characteristics > > (lakkhanam: specific or generic attribute) function (rasa: function or > > achievement), manifestation (paccupat-thana: manifestation, appearance > > or > > effect) and proximate cause (padatthanam) }), from various sources, > > English, > > Pali and couple of different translations of these 4 characteristics in > > Thai, > > from Milindapanha, a little bit from my tipitaka online search. And I > > have to > > admit that I also reflect about it from my background, my training and > > practice at work. > > I was interested to read Mike's post on this subject (thanks, Mike), which > quotes the following passage from 'Survey' > > > 3. Remembrance or perception, sa~n~naa cetasika, > > "marks" the object so that it can be recognized. > > Sa~n~naa cetasika remembers each object which appears; > > it remembers the different objects appearing one after > > the other as a "whole", as a story, a concept of > > beings and people. Sa~n~naa remembers pleasant > > feeling, unpleasant feeling, bodily pleasant and > > painful feeling and indifferent feeling with regard to > > each object which appears. Sa~n~naa cetasika is an > > important condition inciting to attachment and > > clinging in life. > > > > from > > Survey of Paramattha Dhammas > > Sujin Boriharnwanaket > > Translated by Nina van Gorkom > > It seems to me, on the basis of the textual references, that the function > of sanna is to mark the object of the citta at, say, the moment of > experiencing an object through one of the sense doors and then in > subsequent mind moments to play a part in enabling us to relate that > object to objects previously experienced. > > Any thoughts/comments on this hypothesis? > > Jon This hypothesis sounds pretty good to me. We have been discussing the function of sanna at length and I think we agree that sanna marks the object. However, there doesn't seem to be an agreement of how sanna plays a part in recollecting the object, except that we think it must play a part somehow. (Besides, the recollection indicates that there was a remembrance). I think the reason why it is so hard to think about how sanna recollects the object is that, it is equally valid to say that, we don't remember something because the vitakka is not fixed on the object that we want to remember, even though there must be sanna arising at all time. In general, sometimes it is hard to pin down the specific functions of the different realities in a particular situation. For example, when we say there is khanti now, is it a function of adosa only? Since khanti means "endurance" to both something pleasant and unpleasant, then it must mean at least both adosa and alobha. Nama must work in concerts to achieve a particular function, and to say exactly how they interact with one another in the most exact detail may be in the realm of the Buddha and the Great Disciples only. kom 10657 From: manji Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 6:34am Subject: RE: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana I think the answer is in many sutta... And there was presented from Cetasikas an answer, so I am thinking, yes... With dosa, there is always unpleasant feeling arising, but when there is unpleasant feeling, dosa does not always arise. It is the same as... A square is always a rectangle, but a rectangle is not always a square. Below I am pointing it out... The reason I presented this is because I think it is most important to be knowing dosa and dukkha. Knowing that dukkha does not always imply dosa. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:55 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana > > > Dear Manji, > > --- manji wrote: > Originally I had > asked Sarah if there could be the arising of domanassa > > (unpleasant feeling) without dosa (aversion). > > > > Sarah asked to open this into the group... I post the following for > > debate... > > Thanks, Manji. Good to hear from you. I've been receiving > quite a few questions, comments and articles off-list and I > would just like to encourage everyone to send them here > unless there is anything especially personal or confidential;-) > > > Lobha-mula-citta can only be accompanied by somanassa or uppekha. > > There may be somanassa or uppekha without lobha-mula-citta. > > > > Dosa-mula-citta can only be accompanied by domanassa. > > OK so far;-) > > > There may be domanassa without dosa-mula-citta. > > Whenever there is domanassa (unhappy feeling) there is bound > to be dosa (aversion). They always arise together and are > hard to distinguish. You are saying, "bound to be dosa...". So maybe these are not in the same moments, which is talked about below. These moments are very much different. So I am speaking of them stretched out, not so much squishing together eh? I think there can be very strong conditioning factors that allow for dosa, but I am thinking that a very noble and upright "knower of the dhamma" can be seeing this dukkha without dosa. > > > If it is true that domanassa is always accompanied by > dosa-mula-citta, > > then the there is no cessation of suffering, there is no > path, there > > is no buddha, and there is no sangha. > > I'd put it the other way round and say that dosa-mula-citta > (i.e. consciousness rooted in aversion) is always accompanied > by domanassa (unhappy feeling). > > To be more specific, there are two kinds of dosa-mula-cittas. > Both kinds are accompanied by domanassa and arise with > patigha (anger). One kind is prompted and the other kind is > unprompted. > > I don't see how the rest of your sentence follows. > > > If it is true that domanassa is never accompanied by > dosa-mula-citta, > > then there is no suffering, there is no cause of suffering, > there is > > no cessation of suffering, there is no path, there is no > buddha, and > > there is no sangha. > > > > If it is true that domanassa may be unaccompanied by > dosa-mula-citta, > > then this accounts for the suffering, the cause of suffering, the > > cessation of suffering, the path, the buddha, and the sangha. > > So dosa and domanassa arise together. There are different > meanings of suffering. In the 4NT it refers to the > impermanent nature of all realities which are ultimately > unsatisfactory. I think you need to explain more as I may be > missing your point. Remembering the dhamma, one is knowing dukkha only when there is dukkha. If there is this dukkha dhamma... There at that moment there is knowing dukkha. I am thinking that knowing dukkha with Anicca, Anatta, and Sunyata, in this there is no dosa. And eventually no dukkha. > > =============== > > Just to summarise the five kinds of feeling; > > a) pleasant bodily feeling (sukha) > b) painful bodily feeling (dukkha) > c) happy feeling (somanassa) > d) unhappy feeling (domanassa) > e) indifferent feeling (upekkha) > > When there is kaya-vinnana (body-consciousness), this is > kusala or akusala vipaka (wholesome or unwholesome result of > kamma) and it is accompanied by either sukha or dukkha > respectively. There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of > pleasant or painful bodily feeling. The kaya-vinnana is very > short - just a moment of vipaka only. This citta may, > however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas (wholesome > or unwholesome consciousness) and these will be accompanied > by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha. Right there presents the case, "There is no lobha or dosa at these moments of pleasant or painful bodily feeling". Followed later by... "This citta, may, however, be followed by kusala or akusala cittas... And these will be accompanied by somanassa, domanassa or upekkha." So in the cultivation of wisdom, one is knowing the vedana as they really are... With kusala cittas. Maybe this is leading to somanassa or upekkha... :) But then again, also maybe with akusala cittas, there can be some domanassa. > More details can be found in 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' and > in 'Cetasikas', both by Nina and to be found on these > websites: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.dhammastudy.com/ > > When I read the messages about the weather I was reminded of > a quote from the Atthasalini which Nina uses in 'Cetasikas'. > She's writing about how dosa (and therefore domanassa too) > arises 'on account of any object experienced through one of > the six doors.' she continues: > > 'One may even be cross with the rain, the sun or the wind. > We read in the Atthasalini (11, Book 11, Part 11, summary, Ch > 11, 367): > > ..."Or when vexation (springs up) groundlessly" means anger > without reason; for example, someone gets angry saying "it > rains too much", "it does not rain", "the sun shines too > much", "it does not shine"; gets angry when the wind blows, > when it does not blow, gets angry at being unable to sweep > away the Bodhi leaves, at being unable to put on his robe; > he gets angry with the wind, in slipping he gets angry with a > tree-stump..." > ***** Well this is demonstrating dosa, and the mental factors related. Yet someone may come along who is feeling unpleasant with the rain, but there are no mental reactions of this vexation. Maybe an unpleasant feeling, and this unpleasant feeling... Dukkha. So maybe first you see dukkha... Without dosa... Then developing wisdom. Then see dukkha as it really is... Then maybe understanding suffering without dosa... I think this is most amazing. So all these are referring to right now dhammas, not mere conceptual thought. ;) Be well, manji 10658 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 6:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga page 514: To Ong Teng Kee Dear U Ong Teng Kee How are you? Thank you for your information about Anguttara Tiikaa versions. For the time being, I believe I could get by the version in the Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM (VRI Edition). You wrote: "You do not dare to mention your wrong view about bhavanga.It this your pride problem???" Not at all, Sir. Far from it. I have no conceit in these dhamma matters. The reason I do not mention my WRONG VIEW about bhavanga is that I do not want to hurt the pride of anybody else. As I mentioned in one of the previous posts, I am a deep reader as well as an academic writer. I have thoroughly studied about bhavanga and written about it comprehensively by having thoroughly done research into Atthasalini, Visuddhimagga, and Visuddhimagga Maha Tiikaa. As I come from the scientific background, I write on the subject of bhavanga like a science writer. So you wont' find the type of treatment on the subject anywhere else in the world. I can be called a scientist doubling as a Pali scholar. By the way, I am still waiting for your response to my translation of Buddhaghosa's statement on "janaka kamma". My offer to analyse it word for word for you still stands. You will also have a chance to read my translation of Anguttara Tiikaa on Ekakanipata statement 49. And my English language "Anutiikaa" on the Pali Tiikaa is also coming soon. You rightly wrote: "Again you show your poor knowledge about pali." I totally agree with you, Sir. I must confess that I haven't done any research into Pali literature. So I do not know whether there is Anguttara Anutiikaa available in Pali. Please kindly let me know if there was such a text. As I do not find Anguttara Anutiikaa Pali on the Chatthasangayana CD- ROM version 3, I have undertaken to write English language Anguttara Anutiikaa for the convenience of the dhamma friends who would read my translation. I have been always looking forward to meeting the Pali scholars who are better than me in all aspects. That way, I could learn from them and improve my understanding far quicker than learning everything from scratch on my own. So, when you found any mistakes in my translations, please do not hesitate to correct them. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Ong Teng Kee" wrote: > Suan , > > Again you show your poor knowledge about pali.The original tika on angutara > by dhammapala have one copy only in burmese script in first 3 nipata only.It > is not edited into book but in leaves.The india chattasanagayana cdrom do > not have variant readings in the original book for com and subcom.Myanmar > have their own cdrom with all variant readings on it.The books is still a > must.See PTS anguttara tika which have more readings than the myanmar > one.You do not dare to mention your wrong view about bhavanga.It this your > pride problem??? > Teng Kee > > >From: "abhidhammika" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >To: dhammastudygroup@y... > >Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga page 514 > >Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:46:55 -0000 > > > > > > > >Dear U Ong Teng Kee > > > >How are you? > > > >You wrote: > > > >"I do not care you still hold the wrong view. If you want to tran > >tika on anguttara nikaya ,you must go home (yangon)to get original > >tika by dhammapala in leaf(not sariputta).But anyway i think you will > >further mislead people for that translation." > > > >I am afraid you seemed to be worried too much by my posts and > >translations. > > > >If translating Buddhaghosa's own statements amounted to holding the > >wrong view, so be it. > > > >For your information and dhamma friends on this list, I have already > >translated Anguttara Tiikaa on Statement 49 on 27 December 2001. Now > >I nearly finished writing sub-subcommentary (Anutiikaa) on that > >Tiikaa. I will be able to post Tiikaa translation and my new > >Anutiikaa very soon. > > > >As I have Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM, I do not have to get another > >Tika original copy from Myanmar. I believe that the writers of > >Chatthasangayana Pali CD-ROM include many Myanmar Sayadaws. > > > >I try my best to learn from the Buddha, the commentators and the > >subcommentators, and share what I learnt with dhamma friends. And > >dhamma friends who read my works are mature thinkers and > >practitioners of dhamma themselves. And I do not think I can mislead > >them. And there is no good reason for me to mislead them, either. > > > >While I have sympthy for your desire to give the readers the right > >view and prevent them from getting the wrong views from my posts, the > >show must go on. Nothing can silence my voice now. > > > > > >With best wishes, > > > >Suan > > > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > 10659 From: manji Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 7:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana Oops, I think that something should be clarified :) > Well this is demonstrating dosa, and the mental factors > related. Yet someone may come along who is feeling unpleasant > with the rain, but there are no mental reactions of this > vexation. Maybe an unpleasant feeling, and this unpleasant > feeling... Dukkha. Not really feeling unpleasant with the rain, this is not so much knowing... Hehehe... There just is a moment of unpleasant feeling in the body, maybe cold and damp, because of the vipaka cittas. The results of previous karma. Living out the results of previous karma, not karma making, knowing the dukkha as a result of past karma. This though, is elementary intellectual understanding. Later just knowing dukkha without dosa. :) An enlightened individual still living from previous karma. ;) -manji- 10660 From: rikpa21 Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 7:23am Subject:?Re: Elementary questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thanks for your reply Robert. Just a question > about 'characteristics'. You mention that characteristic of cetana > is hard to know, and that there can be direct knowledge of the > characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha. Are > these 'characteristics' listed, taught or discussed anywhere that I > can learn more about them? Hi Christine (Nice meeting yuo the other day, BTW), The "Sabbasava Sutta" lists a number of characteristics of thing that are wholesome and unwholesome, things to be considered and things to be set aside: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn002.html > Both Num and you mentioned Wrong View, so I had another look at the > Sammaditthi Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/maj/mn9.htm 'The Discourse on Right > View' - it seems more complex than my first reading, packed with > several layers of meaning...... Indeed, as it lists sixteen ways by which one may be said to possess Right View. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > I have heard about 'mundane' and 'supramundane' right view. This > Sutta doesn't seem to mention them directly (?), though the > repetition of the term 'Noble disciple" seems to imply someone with > more understanding than the average, ordinary person. The technical definition of "Noble Disciple" refers to the ariyan disciple--one who has directly realized the Four Noble Truths and thus "entered the stream" (this consists of sotapannas, or "stream- enterers"; sakadagamis, or "once returners"; anagamis, or "non- returners"; and arahats--who are fully enlightened and permanently free from suffering). For example: "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." In my reading of this Sutta, it is speaking of the supramundane Right View of an ariyan disciple, though not exclusively the ariyan disciple permanently freed from the effluents and suffering, the arahat. I base this interpretation on the following passage, just from the language therein, which suggests that this is an initial understanding eventually leading to final liberation: "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Note specifically this does not say (s)he has already entirely abandoned those tendencies, but abandons them (suggesting this is a part of an ongoing process, and not a fait accompli)..."and in that way too [constrasted with the initial stanza], a noble disciple is one of Right View". I think these are important points to bear in mind on reading this sutta: 1. that the first stanza refers to those who have supramundane Right view but are still "trainers", and the last stanza of each passage refers to the arahat, one permenently freed from suffering. In this way this sutta refers to all eight types of noble disciples. > Misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome - The morals and mores > of societies and cultures differ and also change with the passing of > time. 'Misconduct' appears a very broad and vague term...not like, > for instance, the explicit prohibition 'Thou shalt not commit > adultery' of the Christian ten commandments. You raise a very valid and extremely relevant point here, because it touches on in important point regarding the meaning and intent of the precepts. Why did the Buddha suggest taking up certain actions and abandoning others, for example? Based on my understanding, the precepts serve as guidelines of behavior associated with the abandonment of unwholesome qualities and with the increase of wholesome qualities. As you suggest, societal mores are inconstant, fabricated, dependent on time and circumstance, whereas the precepts do not share this fickle basis. The way I view the precepts takes at least two primary factors into acccount: does a though, word, or deed serve to increase unskillful qualities in my own (or another's) mind? If yes, then that thought, word, or deed, is unskillful, to be put down. Conversely, does a given though, word, or deed, lead to an increase in skillful qualities? If yes, this a quality to be taken up. But first, it is helpful to clearly understand what qualities are skillful and what qualities are unskillful. Any qualities that lead to increased attachment, to aversion, or to ignorance (in both myself or in another), are unskillful, to be abandoned. Any qualities which lead to non-attachment, to non- aversion, to understanding (again, in both myself or in another), are to be developed. Note well these factors are true regardless of prevailing mores, and entirely dependent on the nature of the type of mind arising with the thought, word, or deed (though it is still wise to take into consideration the prevailing attitudes of those who do not yet understand this, and who may become upset even by wholesomely motivated words or deeds--so it's not a simlpe matter of thinking "I have a good intention" and can therfore act in any old way I see fit so long as I believe I am acting with the proper motivation). > How are we to conduct our lives without more clarity and guidance on > what are wholesome/unwholesome actions in this regard? Wouldn't the > same 'rules' have to apply through the ages for Kamma to be 'fair'. I believe taking the above factors into consideration addresses the question. None of these factors have anything to do with the prevailing mores of a given society ultimately--which depend on things like culture, geography, and accident, as much as unexamined prejudices and popular trends of the day. So simply kowtowing to "rules" or mores imposed by a given society has nothing to do with the inner meaning and intent of the precepts. In fact, slavish adherence to precepts for their own sake (as mere outer rules without any consideratiuon of their inner meaning or intent) is a form of "silabbataparamasa"--one of the fetters abandoned at stream-entry, though I am in no way suggesting that one dispense with training in precepts like the patimokkha, the vinaya, or otherwise, which I believe are critical aspects of moral training (sila) that eventually lead to the direct understanding of the spirit, rather than the letter, of the Law, becauase they help engender at least absetntion of verbal and bodily misconduct, though what goes on in the mind is another matter entirely :) > Taking what is not given is unwholesome. How far does 'taking what > is not given' extend? I read somewhere recently that 'taking what is > not given' could be extended to mean even things like - unless the > hen brought an egg to you and bowed and presented you with it, then > you were 'taking what was not given' if you kept hens for the purpose > of obtaining eggs. I expect this could also be extended to milk and > honey and all animal life..... Some interpret it this way (this is prevalent among many Chinese Mahayanins, for example), and some don't. The question boils down to, again, motivation. Is there the wish, out of attachment (or aversion) present in the act of taking a hen's egg, for example? What about killing life-threatening baceria with antibiotics, or a mosquitoes that carries a fatal (to a human) form of Dengue fever, for example? Or in taking a hen's egg for food, without aversion to said hen, or covetousness, but simply as a requisite for bodily survival. It this "taking what is not given"? I am not going to make any judgment here; I believe it is incumbent on us to discern if such activity is skillful or unskillful. There is even likely to be significant disagreement among many on points such as these, as I'ev seen within the Buddhist community! Again, I think the salient question here is what is motivating the thought, deed, or word? This is where the kamma is created, as a function of volitional intention (cetana). If the motivation behind any thought, word, or deed, is truly pure (meaning alobha, adosa, amoha), than by any definition that cannot ever yield an unwholesome result, karmically spekaing--even though a wholesomely motivaetd word or deed may piss a few people off temporarily--even one is confident it will brings them lasting benefit (which is why it I believe it wise to consider the effect one's words and deeds have on others, even though one may choose in spite of risking someone's temporary discontent if it serves a bigger-picture wholesome agenda). Another thing I think valuable to consider is the fact the Buddha taught the Middle Way. For example, even the Buddha did not eschew eating meat, and the vinaya is explicit that monks accept all alms given them, whether meat or not, and eat accordingly, without either attachment or aversion to what has been offered. Constrast the Buddha's Middle Way with that of the Buddha's cousin Devadatta, who not only attempted to create a schism in the Sangha by attempting to divide the Sangha along the lines of extremely restrictive precepts including refraining from meat-eating, but also attempted, out of a fit of jealous rage, to murder the Buddha! I don't now if you've found this beneficial of not, Christine. In the ultimate sense, all of these things are entirely up to us to come to discern for uorselves anyway, in dependence on our accumulated wisdom. I only hope that you have found these points have helped to clarify rather than to confuse. :) 10661 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 7:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Dear Kom How are you? Thank you for your kind sharing of B. Nanamoli's translation on janaka kamma. I quoted part of your post: "It produces the material and immaterial aggregates both at rebirth linking and during the course of an existence. It is interesting that Bhikkhu Nanamoli has left the term "vipaaka" untranslated in his translation. And his translation of the particle "api" as "both ..and" is rather strong at best and is misleading at worst because it could mean that janaka kamma first produced its result at rebirth linking, and then later produced its results again during the current lifetime. I prefer to translate "api" in this context as "either ..or". Janaka kamma could produce its result at the moment of linking consciousness. If not, it could produce its result during the current lifetime. Similarly, his translation "what is called productive is both profitable and unprofitable." is rather misleading. He could have translated the expression "kusalampi hoti akusalampi" as either profitable or unprofitable". With kind regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Suan, Nina, Ken O, Sarah, and Num, > > I believe this passage can also be read from B. Nanamoli's > Path to Purification, under Purification by Overcoming > Doubt, XIX, 18, page 621, passage 16. I will quote the > entire passage below: > > [16] Another fourfold classification of kamma is this: > productive, consolidating, frustrating, and supplanting. > Herein, (ix) what is called productive is both profitable > and unprofitable. It produces the material and immaterial > aggregates both at rebirth linking and during the course of > an existence. (x) Consolidating kamma cannot produce > result, but when result has already been produced in the > provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, it consolidates > the pleasure or pain that arises and makes it last. (xi) > and when result has already been produced in the provision > of rebirth-linking by other kamma, frustrating kamma > frustrates and obstructs the pleasure or pain that arises > and does not allow it to last. (xii) Supplanting kamma is > itself both profitable and unprofitable; and it supplants > other, weaker kamma, prevents it resulting and usurps that > kamma's opportunity in order to cause it own result. But > when the opportunity has thus been furnished by the [other] > kamma, it is that [supplanting kamma's] result that is > called arisen. > > There are two notes associated with this section that might > be of interests: > > [4] '"Productive" kamma is what produces resultant > continuity by providing rebirth-linking and so on. > "Consolidating" kamma prolongs the occurence of the > continuity of pleasure or pain, or the endurance of > materiality. "Frustrating" kamma slowly diminishes the > endurance of pleasure or pain when they occur. It cuts off > the result of other kamma without giving any result of its > own. "Supplanting" kamma, however, cuts off weak kamma and > makes its own result arise. This is their difference' (Pm. > 771). > > [5] See the various meanings of 'arising' given in Ch. > XXII, 81f > 'Another method is this: when some kamma has been done and > there is, either in rebirth-linking or in the course of > existence, the arising of material instances due to the > result of kamma performed, that kamma is "productive". When > some kamma has been performed and the desirable or > undesirable fruit generated by other kamma has its > production facilitated and its endurance aided and > lengthened by the suppression of conditions that would > interfere with it and by the arousing of conditions that > would strengthen it, that kamma is "supporting". Whe some > kamma has been performed and profitable fruit or > unprofitable fruit generated by productive kamma is > obstructed by it respectively in the form of sickeness or of > disquieting of elements, that is "frustrating" kamma. But > when some kamma has been done by which the fruit of other > kamma is ruined and cut off by being supplanted by what cuts > it off although it was fit for longer endurance because of > the efficacy of the kamma tha was producing it, that kamma > is "supplanting"' (Pm. 772) > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:24 AM > > 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti > > akusalampi. Tam > > patisandhiyampi pavattepi > > ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > > > "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy > > action. It (janaka > > kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > aggegates to arise > > either at the moment of linking consciousness > > (conception) or during > > the current lifetime." 10662 From: Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Hi Kom, Thanks for the quote. The Vism I have is translated by Pe Maung Tin, PTS 1975. His translation is very consistent with the Thai Vism I have. I will type down the same paragraph translated by him then. > from B. Nanamoli's > Path to Purification, under Purification by Overcoming > Doubt, XIX, 18, page 621, passage 16. I will quote the > entire passage below: > > [16] Another fourfold classification of kamma is this: > productive, consolidating, frustrating, and supplanting. > Herein, (ix) what is called productive is both profitable > and unprofitable. It produces the material and immaterial > aggregates both at rebirth linking and during the course of > an existence. (x) Consolidating kamma cannot produce > result, but when result has already been produced in the > provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, it consolidates > the pleasure or pain that arises and makes it last. (xi) > and when result has already been produced in the provision > of rebirth-linking by other kamma, frustrating kamma > frustrates and obstructs the pleasure or pain that arises > and does not allow it to last. (xii) Supplanting kamma is > itself both profitable and unprofitable; and it supplants > other, weaker kamma, prevents it resulting and usurps that > kamma's opportunity in order to cause it own result. But > when the opportunity has thus been furnished by the [other] > kamma, it is that [supplanting kamma's] result that is > called arisen. > P.725 XIX.-Exposition of Transcending of Doubt, Pe Muang Tin, the Path of Purity. PTS, London 1975. _____________________________ Again, there are four kinds of karma: reproductive karma, maintaining karma, unfavorable karma, destructive karma. Of them, reproductive karma is both moral and immoral, and reproduces the resultant aggregates of mind and matter at rebirth and at procedure. The maintaining karma is unable to reproduce a result. It maintains and prolongs the happiness or ill, which arises when rebirth has been granted, and a result yield by another karma. The unfavorable karma oppresses, afflicts and gives no opportunity of long life to the happiness or ill, which arises when rebirth has been granted, and a result yield by another karma. The destructive karma, though itself moral and immoral, [602] kills some other karma which is weak, inhibits its result and makes room for its own results. That result, which is due to the opportunity thus given by karma, is called uprisen result. _______________________________ I think these two translations are pretty consistent. I enjoy reading from various sources. Man, my panna is a long way to go, hope reading, listening and investigating more will condition right understanding. I was impressed from listening to A.Sujin dhamma discussion CD, "Fruit (result) is easy, the right path is not. If one is on the right path, fruit will just happen". (my own translation) Appreciate. Num 10663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deceiving dhammas, to Betty op 05-01-2002 17:29 schreef Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala op beyugala@k...: > There has been much discussion of "cheating" dhammas, and we tend to think > that just because akusala cittas/cetasikas arose just after the kusala, that > somehow the kusala has thus been "tainted" to some extent. But, I'd like to > think that just being able to recognize both the kusala and the akusala that > arose is an excellent indication that sati, and perhaps understanding, has > arisen. So, as long as sati has arisen too, "progress" can be "seen.". > Let me relate a personal experience that just occurred just before new years, > and which Sarah asked me to write about. After our wonderful discussions here > in Bkk last Saturday and Sunday (I couldn't make it on Monday), enhanced by > the visit of Sarah, Jon, Jaran and Christine, we had gone to feed the fish. I > went on home and discovered that my good, dress watch must have slipped off my > wrist somewhere between the fish and home. It was lost, and yet I felt no > regret, no attachment to it (ubekha-kusala=anatta). But then, right after that > a feeling of pride arose: great, I'm proud of myself for not getting upset > over the loss of the watch (mana-akusala=self concept). Then, more akusala > arose, because the thought arose that the ubekha had been "cancelled out" by > the akusala (dosa). Later still, it was realized that being able just to > "follow" the process of the arising of these cittas and cetasikas was sati > itself, and it was ok. Dear Betty, Your observations about different moments of citta, "spoiling our kusala" by akusala, were a good reminder. It seems to happen all the time. If we had never heard the Buddha's teachings we would not know. I like Acharn Sujin's reminder: "It is still self who is thinking". I heard this often. What else can we expect? Thinking in the right way with kusala citta, accompanied by a level of sati, is bound to alternate with clinging to an idea of self who thinks, my thinking, cittas are so fast. I find it difficult to know the difference between sati that accompanies thinking in the right way of realities and sati that is directly aware of realities. In India Acharn spoke about sati of the level of listening, of the thinking level, and sati of satipatthåna, but I can never hear enough about this. With best wishes, Nina. 10664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] thinking about realities. op 07-01-2002 15:29 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn@y...: > Hi Nina > >> Hence, for those of us who likes to identify (in words or >> not), she mention that this is not fruitful (as it is >> impossible to clearly see). She said (or came close to >> saying) that instead of identification, seeing the lakhana >> of the nama that knows (the previous object?) would help >> with understandings more. Of course, unless one understands >> why identification (and analysis) is not as useful, or sees >> (perhaps) the lobha that comes with the >> identification/analysis, then one continues to analyze... > > k: How do we define identifying. For eg. An unpleasant feeling arise. > > a. Does she (as you mention above) say that identifying means there arise > a thought "I have an unpleasant feeling". > > b. Or does she mean "there arise an unpleasant feeling" without an I. > > To me there is nothing wrong with identifying as long as one does not > falls into a. As describe in Satipatthana sutta "there arise an > unpleasant feelings" as said in b, to me that sounds a kind of > identification. Even being aware, there is already a presence of > identification. Even studying it with wise reflecion, there already an > identification just that the identification is not geared to a self or I. > I think we cannot start investigation or reflection without idenfication > to meanings even to the paramatha level (there is still identification). > >Dear Ken O, you are quite right, when we think in the right way about paramattha dhammas, while learning, investigating, there are sati and panna of the level of intellectual understanding. The point raised above is: direct awareness and understanding is of a higher level. Then there is no need to name realities. Their characteristics appear and are understood. There is bound to be thinking, but that can also be directly understood as a condiitoned nama, non-self. Your other question: >N: > It is more useful to be aware of what appears, thus, we should not >> neglect visible object, seeing, sound, etc. It depends on condiitons, > sometimes there are conditions to think a lot, but this is not I who > thinks. > > k: I think this goes a bit too far from anatta principle. By denying > there is no existence of I to an extreme is like stepping into another > deep pit while trying not to fall into another from atman. It is my > intuition, I could not explain it. N: It is not self, but a nåma that thinks. I cannot reply now long, I have a lot of work. But I quote: >Sarah wrote to Eric: >1)Paramattha dhammas (‘ultimate’ truths) There has been a lot of discussion on dsg about the difference between conventional and ultimate truths. When I read any of the suttas, including the Satipatthana Sutta, I understand the Buddha to be talking about paramattha truths, whatever the terms and language used to express these. There are a number of very helpful posts (imho) saved under ‘Concepts and Realities’ in Useful Posts:(sorry these links are not alive, I am clumsy with these things): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts May I particularly draw your attention to one by Rob Ed on ‘paramattha dhammas’ in the Suttas and one by Howard on the Buddha’s use of conventional terminology: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9847 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10026 >Jon wrote to Rob Ep: is bound to be inaccurate as long as direct understanding of the reality > that is hardness has not been fully developed. No amount of 'correcting' > our conceptual misunderstanding can bring any meaningful progress along > the path. > > Another example. An idea of 'self' arises because realities have not been > directly seen with panna as having the characteristic of 'not-self'. Even > though we may have accepted as correct at an intellectual level the > teaching on no self, the concept of self is still there and will arise, > because of the lack of understanding of realities.> End quotes. >Jon has explained in many excellent posts about right effort and intention not being self, etc. Best wishes, Nina. 10665 From: rikpa21 Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Erik, > > Many thanks for your posts and careful attention;-) As I have limited time > (and very limited wisdom;-), I hope you won't mind if I quote from other > posts as I address the first discussion on paramattha dhammas (absolute > realities) in the Satipatthana Sutta: Likewise, I hope you don't mind if I quote from accomplished and widely respected meditation masters on these very points! :) I find Ajahan Chah's teaching to summarize far better than I am able my own understanding of the process of meditation: http://www.forestsangha.org/chah1.htm To keep this brief (it is late, after all), I'll just leave it at that--Right Mindfulness in terms of praxis. Cheers, Erik 10666 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 11:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Dear Suan, Thanks for your kind comment. Do you have any additional pointer on the phrase: "or during the current lifetime?" The other translations I saw didn't phrase it that way and they don't offer additional notes. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 7:33 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom > On Kamma Modifying > Bhavanga Cittam > > > > > Dear Kom > > How are you? > > Thank you for your kind sharing of B. Nanamoli's > translation on > janaka kamma. > > I quoted part of your post: > > "It produces the material and immaterial > aggregates both at rebirth > linking and during the course of an existence. > > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Nanamoli has left > the term "vipaaka" > untranslated in his translation. > > And his translation of the particle "api" as > "both ..and" is rather > strong at best and is misleading at worst because > it could mean that > janaka kamma first produced its result at rebirth > linking, and then > later produced its results again during the > current lifetime. > > I prefer to translate "api" in this context as > "either ..or". Janaka > kamma could produce its result at the moment of linking > consciousness. If not, it could produce its > result during the current > lifetime. > > Similarly, his translation "what is called > productive is both > profitable and unprofitable." is rather > misleading. He could have > translated the expression "kusalampi hoti > akusalampi" as either > profitable or unprofitable". > > > With kind regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit > wrote: > > Dear Suan, Nina, Ken O, Sarah, and Num, > > > > I believe this passage can also be read from B. > Nanamoli's > > Path to Purification, under Purification by Overcoming > > Doubt, XIX, 18, page 621, passage 16. I will quote the > > entire passage below: > > > > [16] Another fourfold classification of > kamma is this: > > productive, consolidating, frustrating, and supplanting. > > Herein, (ix) what is called productive is > both profitable > > and unprofitable. It produces the material and > immaterial > > aggregates both at rebirth linking and during > the course of > > an existence. (x) Consolidating kamma cannot produce > > result, but when result has already been produced in the > > provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, it > consolidates > > the pleasure or pain that arises and makes it > last. (xi) > > and when result has already been produced in > the provision > > of rebirth-linking by other kamma, frustrating kamma > > frustrates and obstructs the pleasure or pain > that arises > > and does not allow it to last. (xii) > Supplanting kamma is > > itself both profitable and unprofitable; and it > supplants > > other, weaker kamma, prevents it resulting and > usurps that > > kamma's opportunity in order to cause it own result. But > > when the opportunity has thus been furnished by > the [other] > > kamma, it is that [supplanting kamma's] result that is > > called arisen. > > > > There are two notes associated with this > section that might > > be of interests: > > > > [4] '"Productive" kamma is what produces resultant > > continuity by providing rebirth-linking and so on. > > "Consolidating" kamma prolongs the occurence of the > > continuity of pleasure or pain, or the endurance of > > materiality. "Frustrating" kamma slowly diminishes the > > endurance of pleasure or pain when they occur. > It cuts off > > the result of other kamma without giving any > result of its > > own. "Supplanting" kamma, however, cuts off > weak kamma and > > makes its own result arise. This is their > difference' (Pm. > > 771). > > > > [5] See the various meanings of > 'arising' given in Ch. > > XXII, 81f > > 'Another method is this: when some kamma > has been done and > > there is, either in rebirth-linking or in the course of > > existence, the arising of material instances due to the > > result of kamma performed, that kamma is > "productive". When > > some kamma has been performed and the desirable or > > undesirable fruit generated by other kamma has its > > production facilitated and its endurance aided and > > lengthened by the suppression of conditions that would > > interfere with it and by the arousing of conditions that > > would strengthen it, that kamma is > "supporting". Whe some > > kamma has been performed and profitable fruit or > > unprofitable fruit generated by productive kamma is > > obstructed by it respectively in the form of > sickeness or of > > disquieting of elements, that is "frustrating" > kamma. But > > when some kamma has been done by which the > fruit of other > > kamma is ruined and cut off by being supplanted > by what cuts > > it off although it was fit for longer endurance > because of > > the efficacy of the kamma tha was producing it, > that kamma > > is "supplanting"' (Pm. 772) > > > > kom > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:24 AM > > > 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti > > > akusalampi. Tam > > > patisandhiyampi pavattepi > > > ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > > > > > "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy > > > action. It (janaka > > > kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > > aggegates to arise > > > either at the moment of linking consciousness > > > (conception) or during > > > the current lifetime." 10667 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 0:16pm Subject: Characteristics (Christine) "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Just a question > about 'characteristics'. You mention that characteristic of cetana is hard to know, and that there can be direct knowledge of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha. Are > these 'characteristics' listed, taught or discussed anywhere that I can learn more about them? ++++++++++++++ Nina van Gorkom's book 'Cetasikas' available at www.amazon.co.uk (not in USA) has many references and great explanations on all of these . Ditthi, cetana and lobha are mental phenomena (nama) and are entirely different from rupa (material phenomena) . The path of practice discerns the differences. In the mulapariyaya sutta (see bodhi "root of existence") the Buddha explains that 'the uninstructed worldling perceives earth as earth......and he perceives the seen as the seen ..the heard as he heard...the sensed as the sensed..the cognised as the cognised..Having perceieved the cognised as the cognised he conceives himself as the cognised..in the cognised...apart from the cognised..the cognised is mine..What is the reason? Because it has not being fully understood." Just some quotes from the commentary and tika to this sutta: p39 "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas: This is said for the purpose of showing that these are mere dhammas endowed with the specific natures deviod of such attributions as that of 'being' etc... These dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And although there is no disctinction between these dhammas and their characteristics the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known, according to their specific nature, thus tey are dhammas."endquote The uninstructed worldling knows dhammas, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enligthened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. The "uninstructed worldling" p40 "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates, elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'. end qoute Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling' who is learning and developing correctly: p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good"endquote Some more quotes about earth: p47. "What friends is this internal earth element? That which is internal..hard, solid. this is characteristic earth" p51 "One who attains jhana through the earth element may adhere to the object perceived in his meditation as a self or he may take that as a sign of his superiority. Thus he conceives "I am earth'..earth is mine" p57. "Therein what is full understanding of the known? he fully understands the earth element thus: This is the internal earth elemnt, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation and proximate cause" Earth is given as an example and the commentary notes that the same can be said of all elements (namas and rupas)p60. "when one idea is mentioned all ideas of like characteristic are mentioned too". Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction p14 That "in the stage of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of composite wholes brought tempoarraily together through a concatenation of conditions" enquote. It can't be stressed enough that this procedure is not limited to thinking about these matters but that it is by the direct insight into these dhammas as they arise in the present moment that is true insight. If this is properly done then gradually, over a very long time, wisdom will develop and result in enlightenment. The enlightened one then p33,34 "directly knows earth as earth..he does not conceive himself as earth..he does not conceive himself apart from earth..he does not conceive earth is mine..he does not delight in earth" best wishes robert 10668 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 1:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Deceiving dhammas Dear Suan, Thanks for your kind comment. Do you have any additional pointer on the phrase: "or during the current lifetime?" The other translations I saw didn't shed lights on this phrasing. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > [mailto:beyugala@k...] > Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:29 AM > To: dhamma study group > Subject: [dsg] Deceiving dhammas > > > Dear Kom and everyone on the list, > First, a very happy new year to you all, and > especially anomodhana to everyone for providing > wonderful opportunities for contemplation, sati > and understanding to arise, as conditioned by the > insightful discussions here. > 10669 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Harvest E-Zine - 2002 January Edition I would like to ask the moderators if this does not qualify as spam. It seems to be a form of recruitment rather than a consideration of the Buddha's teachings, and is certainly proslytizing heavily. As far as I know, Buddha never advocated prayer, nor did he ask to be treated as a god that can dispense favors to those who worship him with faith. This sounds more like a hybrid form of Christianity with Buddha in the role of Christ. What's the policy with something like this? Best, Robert Ep. ============ --- Chen Hsiongcai wrote: > The Monthly Harvest International Buddhist E-Zine > H A R V E S T I N G SPIRITUAL SEEDS OF GROWTH |2002 January Edition| > Issue #23 - Black & White |Panna Youth Centre,Singapore | Promoting Buddhism > Amongst Youths | Happy New Year 2002 | > > P r a i s e t h e L o r d ! > > 1.0 From the Editor’s Desk > 2.0 Feature: White & Black > 3.0 Inspiration: Love is a wonderful thing > 4.0 Sharing: From a Christian to a Buddhist > 5.0 Sayings of the Buddha > 6.0 Intercession & Prayer Requests > 7.0 P.Y.C Announcements & Feature News > 8.0 Quotable Quotes > 9.0 About Harvest E-Zine > -[ F R O M T H E E D I T O R ] > Friends, if your Faith is stronger than the hundredfold in the past one year, > then don't stop there ! I pray that Lord Buddha INCREASE YOU A THOUSAND TIMES > and bless you in the coming year 2002 ! > > There you are - Lord Buddha offers great increase, according to your own faith > level that goes along with your practice. "According to your faith, be it unto > you". But are there any conditions? Of course there are. > > We have to have faith - that's obvious. We have to believe totally that we will > receive what we ask for, but let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who > doubts is like a wave driven and tossed by the wind…let not that man suppose he > will receive anything from the Lord, however Lord Buddha always gave the chance > and freewill of enquiry as described in the discourse of the Kalamas and that > his His challenge to those who doubts his teachings. > > We also have to cultivate the seed we have sown in faith and put it into > practise. Just as the farmer does when he sows his natural seed, we have to tend > our newly planted Bodhi seed. We have to nurture it, fertilise it, and water it > before it can germinate, grow and return to us a plentiful harvest. > > How do we water a spiritual seed? By prayer - and in particular, I believe, by > praying with Faith, Compassion and Aspiration. .... 10670 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 2:01pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Elementary questions Dear Christine, Not sure if this would help or not... > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or elsewhere > to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to Sariputta, one of > his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second only to the > Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the monks under > his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master it. In > this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down to us > intact." The beginning of Dhammasangani in the Abhidhamma pitaka mentions this. I didn't find any translation on the web, so if you have access to the tipitaka, you may be able to look that up. > > 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as subtle and > 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great > elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), fire(temperature), and > wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the 28 classes > of rupa? Yes, the four great elements are part of the 28. There are only 28 types of rupa: there are no others. > > 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as 8 > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't seem > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in things > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. (although I > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). Covetousness and ill > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' , they seem > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone 'intend/plan/deliberately > want', to have wrong view? Just like all dhammas, intention (cetana cetasika) arises when there are conditions for it to arise. Do we agree that we don't like the unpleasant feelings that come with anger? Yet, we continue to have episodes of anger, some mild and some stronger. The intention (kamma) is said to produce results of different degrees. Some, when the factors of becoming kammapada are fulfilled, can cause rebirth. Others can cause different kinds of results (there are some references going on now in the thread 'Luminous Mind'). We all have the common wrong view of self, and some (if not most!) also have other kinds of wrong views. Wrong views easily come when we have associations with people with wrong views. There are at least a couple of suttas where the Buddha taught dhamma to a layperson who took Nigantha as the teacher and he became a sotapanna after listening to the sermon. (Migara, Visakha's father-in-law, was a Nigantha disciple who became an ariyan). Even somebody who have accumulated enough to become an ariyan still has the wrong views in the lifetime that they become an ariyan! > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for food > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in > Christian countries over the centuries. > The ghosts being dependent in this context may refer to being dependent on getting dedication of merits. When we commit kusala kamma, we (should) dedicate the merit to those who can know about the merit so they can rejoice (anumoddhana) of that kusala kamma. For transfer of merit, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 Some ghosts get foods/shelters/clothings through anumoddhana of merits dedicated to them. kom 10671 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Harvest E-Zine - 2002 January Edition Hi Rob Ep, We already wrote to the sender to explain why these posts were inappropriate for dsg and the sender was put under moderation as soon as we saw them. Any further comments on this or other 'mod' issues off-list to us, thanks. S. --- Robert Epstein wrote: > I would like to ask the moderators if this does not qualify as spam. > It seems to be a form of recruitment rather than a consideration of the > Buddha's > teachings, and is certainly proslytizing heavily. > > As far as I know, Buddha never advocated prayer, nor did he ask to be > treated as a > god that can dispense favors to those who worship him with faith. This > sounds > more like a hybrid form of Christianity with Buddha in the role of > Christ. > > What's the policy with something like this? > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ============ > > --- Chen Hsiongcai wrote: > > The Monthly Harvest International Buddhist E-Zine > > H A R V E S T I N G SPIRITUAL SEEDS OF GROWTH |2002 January > Edition| > > Issue #23 - Black & White |Panna Youth Centre,Singapore | Promoting > Buddhism > > Amongst Youths | Happy New Year 2002 | > > > > P r a i s e t h e L o r d ! > > > > 1.0 From the Editor’s Desk > > 2.0 Feature: White & Black > > 3.0 Inspiration: Love is a wonderful thing > > 4.0 Sharing: From a Christian to a Buddhist > > 5.0 Sayings of the Buddha > > 6.0 Intercession & Prayer Requests > > 7.0 P.Y.C Announcements & Feature News > > 8.0 Quotable Quotes > > 9.0 About Harvest E-Zine > > -[ F R O M T H E E D I T O R ] > > Friends, if your Faith is stronger than the hundredfold in the past > one year, > > then don't stop there ! I pray that Lord Buddha INCREASE YOU A > THOUSAND TIMES > > and bless you in the coming year 2002 ! > > > > There you are - Lord Buddha offers great increase, according to your > own faith > > level that goes along with your practice. "According to your faith, be > it unto > > you". But are there any conditions? Of course there are. > > > > We have to have faith - that's obvious. We have to believe totally > that we will > > receive what we ask for, but let him ask in faith, with no doubting, > for he who > > doubts is like a wave driven and tossed by the wind…let not that man > suppose he > > will receive anything from the Lord, however Lord Buddha always gave > the chance > > and freewill of enquiry as described in the discourse of the Kalamas > and that > > his His challenge to those who doubts his teachings. > > > > We also have to cultivate the seed we have sown in faith and put it > into > > practise. Just as the farmer does when he sows his natural seed, we > have to tend > > our newly planted Bodhi seed. We have to nurture it, fertilise it, and > water it > > before it can germinate, grow and return to us a plentiful harvest. > > > > How do we water a spiritual seed? By prayer - and in particular, I > believe, by > > praying with Faith, Compassion and Aspiration. > > .... 10672 From: frank kuan Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 5:12pm Subject: sloth/torpor mental or physical? I read recently (mindfulness in plain english I believe, or maybe wings to awakening?) that sloth/torpor as one of the 5 hindrances is a purely mental phenomena. I'm not sure I buy into that or at least I'm misunderstanding something. For example, I can respond with a dull, somewhat oblivious state of mind whether there is a physiological basis (drowsiness, etc.) or listening to a boring professor with a monotone voice. In BOTH cases, that state of mind appears the same to me, but in one of them there seems to be a physical cause (drowsiness), whereas the other case not. So if I understand the correct Buddhist definition of sloth/torpor, am I to label one mental state as sloth/torpor if it does not have drowsiness as a cause, and the other state as drowsiness instead of sloth/torpor, even though both states of mind appear to be the same to me? -fk 10673 From: wynn Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 5:26pm Subject: Seeing more than meets eye Hi, What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) Buddhism and meditation? http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story Seeing more than meets eye Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways By Ronald Kotulak Tribune science reporter Published January 1, 2002 Near-death experiences, in which people believe they see the bright light of heaven at the end of a tunnel, may be nothing more than the brain cells that process vision lighting up in such a way so as to reveal the circular pattern of how they are wired together. New research also indicates that prehistoric cave and rock art depicting spirals, zigzags and other geometric forms may have been done by artists experiencing the same kind of drug-induced hallucinations that people today have when they take LSD, mescaline, Ecstasy and other psychedelic compounds. A visual hallucination is defined as seeing something that's not there. They are relatively common, and almost all cultures from prehistoric times on have used drugs to induce hallucinations for religious, healing and artistic purposes. But science now suggests that near-death images and other hallucinations involving geometric patterns are really there-- on the inside of the brain. Inducing creative mood People like Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Cary Grant, Allen Ginsberg, Tallulah Bankhead, the Beatles, Charles Dickens, Timothy Leary and Salvador Dali, who used hallucinogens in the hopes of inducing a creative mood, were actually lighting up their brain wiring. "[It] surged upon me an uninterrupted stream of fantastic [kaleidoscopic-like] images of extraordinary plasticity and vividness," is how Albert Hoffman, the brilliant Swiss chemist, described his first experience with LSD, a compound he had synthesized in 1938. Hallucinations can also be caused by anesthetics, fatigue, hunger, stress, alcohol, fever, adverse drug reactions, sleep deprivation, bright flickering lights and even pressure on the eyeballs. Normally, the 100 million neurons of the credit-card size visual cortex at the back of the head convert what our eyes see into edges color, depth and other features, and then reassemble the pieces into recognizable scenes of the outside world. The process works fast. About 40 milliseconds after seeing an object, edge detectors are activated and in another 40 milliseconds the edges become pieced together into contours and the beginnings of surfaces. This information goes to other parts of the brain to be compared with stored memories. In far less than a second you've basically solved the problem of vision, of remembering, recognizing and sorting out what the object is. In the case of a hallucination, this does not happen. Through the action of drugs or other influences, the edge detectors become disengaged from the rest of the network and begin firing on their own. The resulting hallucination reflects the pinwheel pattern of brain cells that process lines, curves and other geometric shapes, providing a remarkable view of the physical architecture of the visual cortex, according to recently published findings by Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago and Paul Bressloff of the University of Utah. "It's almost like seeing your own brain through a mirror," Cowan said. "You're basically seeing patterns that your own brain is making." 4 basic groups Cowan, who is a mathematician and a neurologist, has been studying hallucinations for 20 years. He was intrigued by the work of another U. of C. scientist, Heinrich Kluver, who in the 1920s and 1930s classified the drawings of people experiencing drug-induced hallucinations into four basic categories--tunnels and funnels; spirals; lattices; and cobwebs. Based on new findings from optical imaging, in which scientists can actually see which neurons light up in the visual cortex of cats and monkeys when they view different lines and contours, Cowan, Bressloff and their colleagues developed a mathematical model that can accurately predict the shapes of different hallucinations. "We calculated that given the kinds of anatomy in the visual cortex, there are only four kinds of patterns it will make when it goes unstable," Cowan said. "It turns out that those four kinds of patterns we get from the math correspond exactly to the four classes of patterns that Kluver ended up with based on his looking at the drawings." Terry Sejnowski, director of the Salk Institute's Computational Neurobiology Laboratory, said the work of Cowan and Bressloff could have wide application in the areas of artificial intelligence and artificial vision. "They have created a mathematical model which replicates surprisingly well the states that the brain gets into when it's having visual hallucinations," he said. "These hallucinatory states are really abnormal conditions. Sometimes you learn a lot about a complex system from the conditions which occur when it breaks down or when it's not operating under normal conditions." The mathematical study of vision is also helping to explain near-death experiences. Essentially they are physical representations of striplike columns of neurons in the visual cortex that form a tunnel pattern. "What actually happens when somebody takes a drug is the first thing they experience is a very bright light in the center of the visual field, which is very reminiscent of this sort of light in the tunnel when people think they see heaven beckoning in the distance," Bressloff said. "What seems to happen is that this bright light spreads across the visual field and from that state then this structure emerges which is the seed for the hallucination pattern," he said. Drug-induced drawings Since spirals, tunnels, zigzags and other hallucinatory patterns can be found in the art of almost all cultures and go back more than 30,000 years, many anthropologists speculate that they were done under the influence of hallucinogenic drugs or self-induced trances, and that these experiences served as the origin of abstract art. The foremost masters of hallucinogenic experiences are shamans, ritual practitioners in hunting-and-gathering societies who enter altered states of consciousness to achieve a variety of ends that include healing the sick, foretelling the future, meeting spirit-animals, changing the weather and controlling animals by supernatural means, according to Jean Clottes, scientific adviser to the French ministry on prehistoric art, and David Lewis-Williams, professor of cognitive archeology at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. In their study of shamans, religious mystics and visionaries around the world, Clottes and Lewis-Williams found that while drugs are widely used to induce hallucinations, trances are also used to produce unusual mental imagery. Trances can be induced through sensory deprivation, prolonged social isolation, intense pain, vigorous dancing and insistent, rhythmic sound, such as drumming and chanting. 3 stages of trances In their book, "The Shamans of Prehistory: Trance and Magic in the Painted Caves," Clottes and Lewis-Williams outline three stages of trance. In the first stage trance, people "see" geometric forms, such as dots, zigzags, grids, parallel lines, nested curves and meandering lines. In the second stage, subjects try to make better sense out of the geometric imagery by illusioning them into objects of religious or emotional significance, such as construing a zigzag line into a snake. The third stage is reached via a vortex or tunnel, at the end of which is a bright light. When people emerge from the tunnel they find themselves in a bizarre world where geometric patterns become mixed with monsters, people and settings. It is in this stage where the drawings of humans with animal features occur. Clottes and Lewis-Williams concluded: "We emphasize that these three stages are universal and wired into the human nervous system, though the meanings given to the geometrics of Stage 1, the objects into which they are illusioned in Stage 2, and the hallucinations of Stage 3 are all culture-specific, at least in some measure, people hallucinate what they expect to hallucinate." Copyright © 2002, Chicago Tribune 10674 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 5:52pm Subject: Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical? --- A good topic Frank. Just to note as an intro. that rupa (material phenomena) conditions nama (mentality) and vice versa by several different paccaya (conditions) explained in exhaustive detail in the patthana. These can be known directly to whatever degree wisdom has been accumulated to know this - at any time they are present. Arahants have neither sloth nor torpor but still sleep. I'm sure others will add more. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > I read recently (mindfulness in plain english I > believe, or maybe wings to awakening?) that > sloth/torpor as one of the 5 hindrances is a purely > mental phenomena. I'm not sure I buy into that or at > least I'm misunderstanding something. > > For example, I can respond with a dull, somewhat > oblivious state of mind whether there is a > physiological basis (drowsiness, etc.) or listening to > a boring professor with a monotone voice. In BOTH > cases, that state of mind appears the same to me, but > in one of them there seems to be a physical cause > (drowsiness), whereas the other case not. So if I > understand the correct Buddhist definition of > sloth/torpor, am I to label one mental state as > sloth/torpor if it does not have drowsiness as a > cause, and the other state as drowsiness instead of > sloth/torpor, even though both states of mind appear > to be the same to me? > > -fk 10675 From: manji Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 5:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana After consideration I am now thinking that maybe a little bit confusing Dukkha and Domanassa. So it is dukkha that arises without dosa, since it only arises with the kaya-vinnana which is akusala vipaka. This life being the result of akusala kamma. However, domanassa only arises with two citta... Prompted and unprompted. This is making sense ;) So still the buddha can be free of dosa, lobha, and moha and still suffer the pains of the body until parinibbana. There still is dukkha, yet it is limited to only the body consciousness. The mental consciousness does not fall into unpleasant feeling. This is most fortunate to be discovering, Thanks. -manji- 10676 From: manji Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 5:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye How so with the understanding of sunyata? :) > -----Original Message----- > From: wynn [mailto:wewynal@t...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:26 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > Hi, > > What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) > Buddhism and meditation? > > http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story > > Seeing more than meets eye > > Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways > > By Ronald Kotulak > Tribune science reporter > Published January 1, 2002 > > Near-death experiences, in which people believe they see the > bright light of heaven at the end of a tunnel, may be nothing > more than the brain cells that process vision lighting up in > such a way so as to reveal the circular pattern of how they > are wired together. > > New research also indicates that prehistoric cave and rock > art depicting spirals, zigzags and other geometric forms may > have been done by artists experiencing the same kind of > drug-induced hallucinations that people today have when they > take LSD, mescaline, Ecstasy and other psychedelic compounds. > > A visual hallucination is defined as seeing something that's > not there. They are relatively common, and almost all > cultures from prehistoric times on have used drugs to induce > hallucinations for religious, healing and artistic purposes. > > But science now suggests that near-death images and other > hallucinations involving geometric patterns are really > there-- on the inside of the brain. > > Inducing creative mood > > People like Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Cary Grant, > Allen Ginsberg, Tallulah Bankhead, the Beatles, Charles > Dickens, Timothy Leary and Salvador Dali, who used > hallucinogens in the hopes of inducing a creative mood, were > actually lighting up their brain wiring. > > "[It] surged upon me an uninterrupted stream of fantastic > [kaleidoscopic-like] images of extraordinary plasticity and > vividness," is how Albert Hoffman, the brilliant Swiss > chemist, described his first experience with LSD, a compound > he had synthesized in 1938. > > Hallucinations can also be caused by anesthetics, fatigue, > hunger, stress, alcohol, fever, adverse drug reactions, sleep > deprivation, bright flickering lights and even pressure on > the eyeballs. > > Normally, the 100 million neurons of the credit-card size > visual cortex at the back of the head convert what our eyes > see into edges color, depth and other features, and then > reassemble the pieces into recognizable scenes of the outside world. > > The process works fast. About 40 milliseconds after seeing an > object, edge detectors are activated and in another 40 > milliseconds the edges become pieced together into contours > and the beginnings of surfaces. This information goes to > other parts of the brain to be compared with stored memories. > > In far less than a second you've basically solved the problem > of vision, of remembering, recognizing and sorting out what > the object is. > > In the case of a hallucination, this does not happen. Through > the action of drugs or other influences, the edge detectors > become disengaged from the rest of the network and begin > firing on their own. > > The resulting hallucination reflects the pinwheel pattern of > brain cells that process lines, curves and other geometric > shapes, providing a remarkable view of the physical > architecture of the visual cortex, according to recently > published findings by Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago > and Paul Bressloff of the University of Utah. > > "It's almost like seeing your own brain through a mirror," > Cowan said. "You're basically seeing patterns that your own > brain is making." > > 4 basic groups > > Cowan, who is a mathematician and a neurologist, has been > studying hallucinations for 20 years. He was intrigued by the > work of another U. of C. scientist, Heinrich Kluver, who in > the 1920s and 1930s classified the drawings of people > experiencing drug-induced hallucinations into four basic > categories--tunnels and funnels; spirals; lattices; and cobwebs. > > Based on new findings from optical imaging, in which > scientists can actually see which neurons light up in the > visual cortex of cats and monkeys when they view different > lines and contours, Cowan, Bressloff and their colleagues > developed a mathematical model that can accurately predict > the shapes of different hallucinations. > > "We calculated that given the kinds of anatomy in the visual > cortex, there are only four kinds of patterns it will make > when it goes unstable," Cowan said. "It turns out that those > four kinds of patterns we get from the math correspond > exactly to the four classes of patterns that Kluver ended up > with based on his looking at the drawings." > > Terry Sejnowski, director of the Salk Institute's > Computational Neurobiology Laboratory, said the work of Cowan > and Bressloff could have wide application in the areas of > artificial intelligence and artificial vision. > > "They have created a mathematical model which replicates > surprisingly well the states that the brain gets into when > it's having visual hallucinations," he said. "These > hallucinatory states are really abnormal conditions. > Sometimes you learn a lot about a complex system from the > conditions which occur when it breaks down or when it's not > operating under normal conditions." > > The mathematical study of vision is also helping to explain > near-death experiences. Essentially they are physical > representations of striplike columns of neurons in the visual > cortex that form a tunnel pattern. > > "What actually happens when somebody takes a drug is the > first thing they experience is a very bright light in the > center of the visual field, which is very reminiscent of this > sort of light in the tunnel when people think they see heaven > beckoning in the distance," Bressloff said. > > "What seems to happen is that this bright light spreads > across the visual field and from that state then this > structure emerges which is the seed for the hallucination > pattern," he said. > > Drug-induced drawings > > Since spirals, tunnels, zigzags and other hallucinatory > patterns can be found in the art of almost all cultures and > go back more than 30,000 years, many anthropologists > speculate that they were done under the influence of > hallucinogenic drugs or self-induced trances, and that these > experiences served as the origin of abstract art. > > The foremost masters of hallucinogenic experiences are > shamans, ritual practitioners in hunting-and-gathering > societies who enter altered states of consciousness to > achieve a variety of ends that include healing the sick, > foretelling the future, meeting spirit-animals, changing the > weather and controlling animals by supernatural means, > according to Jean Clottes, scientific adviser to the French > ministry on prehistoric art, and David Lewis-Williams, > professor of cognitive archeology at the University of > Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. > > In their study of shamans, religious mystics and visionaries > around the world, Clottes and Lewis-Williams found that while > drugs are widely used to induce hallucinations, trances are > also used to produce unusual mental imagery. Trances can be > induced through sensory deprivation, prolonged social > isolation, intense pain, vigorous dancing and insistent, > rhythmic sound, such as drumming and chanting. > > 3 stages of trances > > In their book, "The Shamans of Prehistory: Trance and Magic > in the Painted Caves," Clottes and Lewis-Williams outline > three stages of trance. > > In the first stage trance, people "see" geometric forms, such > as dots, zigzags, grids, parallel lines, nested curves and > meandering lines. In the second stage, subjects try to make > better sense out of the geometric imagery by illusioning them > into objects of religious or emotional significance, such as > construing a zigzag line into a snake. The third stage is > reached via a vortex or tunnel, at the end of which is a > bright light. When people emerge from the tunnel they find > themselves in a bizarre world where geometric patterns become > mixed with monsters, people and settings. It is in this stage > where the drawings of humans with animal features occur. > > Clottes and Lewis-Williams concluded: "We emphasize that > these three stages are universal and wired into the human > nervous system, though the meanings given to the geometrics > of Stage 1, the objects into which they are illusioned in > Stage 2, and the hallucinations of Stage 3 are all > culture-specific, at least in some measure, people > hallucinate what they expect to hallucinate." > > > Copyright C 2002, Chicago Tribune 10677 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana --- Good to see this example of wise considering (prompted by your own questions). The unpleasant feeling through the bodysense does not arise with dosa or domanasa. And the following metal processes may be with patience or insight and so be kusala (wholesome ) with neutral or pleasant feeling. However, all these are still dukkha because they are subject to rise and fall. (there are three kinds of dukkha) best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > After consideration I am now thinking that maybe a little bit confusing > Dukkha and Domanassa. > > So it is dukkha that arises without dosa, since it only arises with the > kaya-vinnana which is akusala vipaka. This life being the result of > akusala kamma. > > However, domanassa only arises with two citta... Prompted and > unprompted. This is making sense ;) > > So still the buddha can be free of dosa, lobha, and moha and still > suffer the pains of the body until parinibbana. There still is dukkha, > yet it is limited to only the body consciousness. The mental > consciousness does not fall into unpleasant feeling. > > This is most fortunate to be discovering, > Thanks. > -manji- 10678 From: wynn Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 6:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye Hi, I don't understand what you mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: manji To: Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > How so with the understanding of sunyata? :) > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wynn [mailto:wewynal@t...] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:26 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > > > > Hi, > > > > What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) > > Buddhism and meditation? > > > > http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story > > > > Seeing more than meets eye > > > > Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways > > > > By Ronald Kotulak > > Tribune science reporter > > Published January 1, 2002 > > > > Near-death experiences, in which people believe they see the > > bright light of heaven at the end of a tunnel, may be nothing > > more than the brain cells that process vision lighting up in > > such a way so as to reveal the circular pattern of how they > > are wired together. > > > > New research also indicates that prehistoric cave and rock > > art depicting spirals, zigzags and other geometric forms may > > have been done by artists experiencing the same kind of > > drug-induced hallucinations that people today have when they > > take LSD, mescaline, Ecstasy and other psychedelic compounds. > > > > A visual hallucination is defined as seeing something that's > > not there. They are relatively common, and almost all > > cultures from prehistoric times on have used drugs to induce > > hallucinations for religious, healing and artistic purposes. > > > > But science now suggests that near-death images and other > > hallucinations involving geometric patterns are really > > there-- on the inside of the brain. > > > > Inducing creative mood > > > > People like Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Cary Grant, > > Allen Ginsberg, Tallulah Bankhead, the Beatles, Charles > > Dickens, Timothy Leary and Salvador Dali, who used > > hallucinogens in the hopes of inducing a creative mood, were > > actually lighting up their brain wiring. > > > > "[It] surged upon me an uninterrupted stream of fantastic > > [kaleidoscopic-like] images of extraordinary plasticity and > > vividness," is how Albert Hoffman, the brilliant Swiss > > chemist, described his first experience with LSD, a compound > > he had synthesized in 1938. > > > > Hallucinations can also be caused by anesthetics, fatigue, > > hunger, stress, alcohol, fever, adverse drug reactions, sleep > > deprivation, bright flickering lights and even pressure on > > the eyeballs. > > > > Normally, the 100 million neurons of the credit-card size > > visual cortex at the back of the head convert what our eyes > > see into edges color, depth and other features, and then > > reassemble the pieces into recognizable scenes of the outside world. > > > > The process works fast. About 40 milliseconds after seeing an > > object, edge detectors are activated and in another 40 > > milliseconds the edges become pieced together into contours > > and the beginnings of surfaces. This information goes to > > other parts of the brain to be compared with stored memories. > > > > In far less than a second you've basically solved the problem > > of vision, of remembering, recognizing and sorting out what > > the object is. > > > > In the case of a hallucination, this does not happen. Through > > the action of drugs or other influences, the edge detectors > > become disengaged from the rest of the network and begin > > firing on their own. > > > > The resulting hallucination reflects the pinwheel pattern of > > brain cells that process lines, curves and other geometric > > shapes, providing a remarkable view of the physical > > architecture of the visual cortex, according to recently > > published findings by Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago > > and Paul Bressloff of the University of Utah. > > > > "It's almost like seeing your own brain through a mirror," > > Cowan said. "You're basically seeing patterns that your own > > brain is making." > > > > 4 basic groups > > > > Cowan, who is a mathematician and a neurologist, has been > > studying hallucinations for 20 years. He was intrigued by the > > work of another U. of C. scientist, Heinrich Kluver, who in > > the 1920s and 1930s classified the drawings of people > > experiencing drug-induced hallucinations into four basic > > categories--tunnels and funnels; spirals; lattices; and cobwebs. > > > > Based on new findings from optical imaging, in which > > scientists can actually see which neurons light up in the > > visual cortex of cats and monkeys when they view different > > lines and contours, Cowan, Bressloff and their colleagues > > developed a mathematical model that can accurately predict > > the shapes of different hallucinations. > > > > "We calculated that given the kinds of anatomy in the visual > > cortex, there are only four kinds of patterns it will make > > when it goes unstable," Cowan said. "It turns out that those > > four kinds of patterns we get from the math correspond > > exactly to the four classes of patterns that Kluver ended up > > with based on his looking at the drawings." > > > > Terry Sejnowski, director of the Salk Institute's > > Computational Neurobiology Laboratory, said the work of Cowan > > and Bressloff could have wide application in the areas of > > artificial intelligence and artificial vision. > > > > "They have created a mathematical model which replicates > > surprisingly well the states that the brain gets into when > > it's having visual hallucinations," he said. "These > > hallucinatory states are really abnormal conditions. > > Sometimes you learn a lot about a complex system from the > > conditions which occur when it breaks down or when it's not > > operating under normal conditions." > > > > The mathematical study of vision is also helping to explain > > near-death experiences. Essentially they are physical > > representations of striplike columns of neurons in the visual > > cortex that form a tunnel pattern. > > > > "What actually happens when somebody takes a drug is the > > first thing they experience is a very bright light in the > > center of the visual field, which is very reminiscent of this > > sort of light in the tunnel when people think they see heaven > > beckoning in the distance," Bressloff said. > > > > "What seems to happen is that this bright light spreads > > across the visual field and from that state then this > > structure emerges which is the seed for the hallucination > > pattern," he said. > > > > Drug-induced drawings > > > > Since spirals, tunnels, zigzags and other hallucinatory > > patterns can be found in the art of almost all cultures and > > go back more than 30,000 years, many anthropologists > > speculate that they were done under the influence of > > hallucinogenic drugs or self-induced trances, and that these > > experiences served as the origin of abstract art. > > > > The foremost masters of hallucinogenic experiences are > > shamans, ritual practitioners in hunting-and-gathering > > societies who enter altered states of consciousness to > > achieve a variety of ends that include healing the sick, > > foretelling the future, meeting spirit-animals, changing the > > weather and controlling animals by supernatural means, > > according to Jean Clottes, scientific adviser to the French > > ministry on prehistoric art, and David Lewis-Williams, > > professor of cognitive archeology at the University of > > Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. > > > > In their study of shamans, religious mystics and visionaries > > around the world, Clottes and Lewis-Williams found that while > > drugs are widely used to induce hallucinations, trances are > > also used to produce unusual mental imagery. Trances can be > > induced through sensory deprivation, prolonged social > > isolation, intense pain, vigorous dancing and insistent, > > rhythmic sound, such as drumming and chanting. > > > > 3 stages of trances > > > > In their book, "The Shamans of Prehistory: Trance and Magic > > in the Painted Caves," Clottes and Lewis-Williams outline > > three stages of trance. > > > > In the first stage trance, people "see" geometric forms, such > > as dots, zigzags, grids, parallel lines, nested curves and > > meandering lines. In the second stage, subjects try to make > > better sense out of the geometric imagery by illusioning them > > into objects of religious or emotional significance, such as > > construing a zigzag line into a snake. The third stage is > > reached via a vortex or tunnel, at the end of which is a > > bright light. When people emerge from the tunnel they find > > themselves in a bizarre world where geometric patterns become > > mixed with monsters, people and settings. It is in this stage > > where the drawings of humans with animal features occur. > > > > Clottes and Lewis-Williams concluded: "We emphasize that > > these three stages are universal and wired into the human > > nervous system, though the meanings given to the geometrics > > of Stage 1, the objects into which they are illusioned in > > Stage 2, and the hallucinations of Stage 3 are all > > culture-specific, at least in some measure, people > > hallucinate what they expect to hallucinate." > > > > > > Copyright C 2002, Chicago Tribune 10679 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 7:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "right" thinking and satipatthana Dear Nina, As usual, you have "hit the nail on the head", so to speak, and came straight to the point, helping to clarify the problem for me. Anomodhana for that. __________________________ .Nina: I like Acharn Sujin's reminder: "It is still self who is thinking". I heard this > often. What else can we expect? Thinking in the right way with kusala citta, > accompanied by a level of sati, is bound to alternate with clinging to an > idea of self who thinks, my thinking, cittas are so fast. __________________________ Absolutely: Achaan usually reminds us with the same thought in the form of a question: Who is doing the thinking, being angry, or whatever action "one" says s/he "is doing"? This is an excellent thought to "test" ourselves and bring focus on the realities. If only this thought would arise as many times as possible during the course of a day. (But, the longing for such a thought to arise is lobha, and thus being akusala, will inhibit kusala to arise). Its a vicious cycle, isn't it? __________________________ Nina: I find it difficult to know the difference between sati that accompanies thinking in > the right way of realities and sati that is directly aware of realities. In > India Acharn spoke about sati of the level of listening, of the thinking > level, and sati of satipatthåna, but I can never hear enough about this. __________________________ This is the main problem for "me" as well. But as I continued to read further down below, the answer came, but as a thought, not as a deep understanding on the level of satipatthana. __________________________ > > >Jon wrote to Rob Ep: > > is bound to be inaccurate as long as direct understanding of the reality > > that is hardness has not been fully developed. No amount of 'correcting' > > our conceptual misunderstanding can bring any meaningful progress along > > the path. > > > > Another example. An idea of 'self' arises because realities have not been > > directly seen with panna as having the characteristic of 'not-self'. Even > > though we may have accepted as correct at an intellectual level the > > teaching on no self, the concept of self is still there and will arise, > > because of the lack of understanding of realities.> End quotes. _____________________________ And herein lies the difference between "right" thinking about realities, and the actual experience of the deep understanding that comes with satipatthana. "Right" thinking, like any kind of thinking, is merely a thought that arises and falls away. But when satipattana arises, the understanding is deep, an insight, no thinking is required. But panna just knows the particular reality that arose and knows it is anatta at the same time, all on a very deep, profound level. Panna too, like any reality, rises and then falls away, but what was understood is "accumulated" by panna forever. Each time this happens ("we" never know when it's going to happen) a tiny erosion in our "self" concept occurs, slightly (verrrryyy slightly) reducing it a bit. Along with this a somanassa feeling arises, a feeling of great calm and liberation. At least, on the rare occasions (verrrryyyy rare) that this has arisen for "me", it was like that. And thank you, dear Nina, for being the "paccaya", in a sense, to cause this thinking to arise for "me", > anomodhana, Betty> 10680 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Dear Christine and Lucy, Here's one of my favorite zen koans for the occasion. Perhaps the dog and cat will find it interesting. Monk: When heat and cold come, how can we avoid them? Master: Why don't you go to the place where there is no cold or heat? Monk: Where is the place where there is no cold or heat? Master: When it's hot the heat kills you, when it's cold the cold kills you. Best, Robert Ep. ============= --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Having consulted the dog, he's decided to stay home - hates water, > hard to even catch him for a bath. :-) > > Is it part of the human condition to always think the grass is > greener elsewhere? > > Hope to see more posts from you, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > Thanks, Christine > > > > Yes, you can have all of this wonderful wet wet wet , and the cold, > > the wind and the dark winter days. All yours! (but it's not crisp, > > more like...soggy) > > > > My cat has lived under the duvet the past 2 months, maybe your dog > > wants to trade places too? > > > > Lucy 10681 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important (was satipathana and practice) Dear Erik, I’d like to consider some of your other points and quotes on ‘focus’ and ‘without lapse’, but this is not so simple at all, I find;-) I’m quoting extracts from more than one of your posts..pls excuse the ‘cut and paste’ job. ***** > 2)Focus and `unbroken mindfulness' > Sarah: >....... As we know from our abhidhamma studies, sati is not > unbroken or continuous but is a skilful mental state arising momentarily > with a specific citta (consciousnes) in the javana (`running- through') > process. ***** Erik: Then why does this seem to directly contradict the Buddha's teaching on Right Mindfulness (from the Anapanasati Sutta): "On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse." ***** Sarah: Like Num, I find it helpful to look at different translations; B.Bodhi’s translation Anapanasati Sutta, in MN p945: “That is why on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware and mindful, having put away covetousnes and grief for the world.” The same translation is used later. Covetousness and grief refer to lobha (attachment) and dosa (aversion) as I understand. He doesn’t refer to ‘focus’ or ‘without lapse’, though I agree with your comments about the limitations of ‘contemplating’...I’d prefer ‘being aware’ perhaps. Erik, may I just point out a few dificulties which I find when we read suttas such as this one: 1.For most of us we depend on translations and our very limited understanding. 2. Translations can vary a lot and inevitably reflect the understanding of the translator. Studying the Pali itself will reflect our own undestanding and be limited in this regard also. 3. Sometimes the references are to jhana attainment and sometimes to satipatthana. We need to carefully distinguish. For example, in the paragraph following the one quoted here, we read “I shall breathe in experiencing rapture”. ‘Rapture’ can refer to the state attained in the jhanas and also be an object of insight. ‘Concentrating the mind’ sometimes refers to concentration pertaining to jhanas and sometimes to momentary concentration arising with insight and so on. ***** Erik: How do you regard what the Buddha says here about mindfulness as a factor of awakening being "steady and without lapse", compared to sati merely being "a skilful mental state arising momentarily with a specific citta"? By way of personal preference, I prefer the direct words of the Buddha over other interpretations, since some appear to directly contradict the words of the Buddha regarding mindfulness as an enlightenment factor: "When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor of awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. ***** Sarah: Ok I’m checking BB’s translation for this quote, p946 : “Bhikkhus, on whatever occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body a a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindul, having put away covetousness and grief for the world - on that occasion unremitting mindfulness is established in him. On whatever occasion unremitting mindfulness is established in a bhikkhu - on that occasion the mindfulness enlightenment factor is aroused in him, and he develops it, and by development, it comes to fulfilment in him. “Abiding thus mindful, he investigates and examines that state with wisdom and embarks upon a full inquiry into it....with wisdom...” ..... This continues for all the other foundations of mindfulness. A few points to consider: 1. The enlightenment factors arise momentarily with ‘pure’ cittas 2. The enlightenment factors only arise with highly developed panna. Only when wisdom has developed to the extent that it can realize the Noble Truths is it accompanied by the 7 bojjhangas (enlightenment factors) i.e. not before experiencing th e vipassana nanas. 3. Objects of awareness pertain to realities appearing now.as we read in other suttas, these include the hindrances, the sense objects, experiencing through different doorways and so on. 4. In the beginning, sati will not be powerful or an enlightenment factor or unremitting in any sense of the word. 5. The aim should not be to copy the arahat or one for whom lobha and dosa have been ‘put away’, but to develop awareness of realities as they are. 6. If the enlightenment factors or ‘limbs of wisdom’ (as they are sometimes referred to, I recall) are experienced, it isnatural that these can be objects of awareness amongst the rupas, vedana, cittas and other dhammas. ..... Erik, I don’t pretend to have all the answers and I’m merely sharing a few reflections. Without sati and panna there will be no knowing when concentration or any other factor is skilful or unskilful. This is why, even when we read suttas specifically about concentration, energy, metta, dana or other mental states, the emphasis is still on understanding and being aware of these dhammas as not self and not worth being attached to. ..... We read: AN. I, v (48): "Nothing, O monks, do I know that changes so rapidly as consciousness. Scarcely anything may be found that could be compared with this so rapidly changing consciousness." ...... The aim of panna and sati is not to change cittas (consciousness) or to slowthem down or to only have one kind of reality appering, but to understand more and more about those realities appering now. What is truly extraordinary is that panna and sati can and will develop with sufficient right conditions. ***** Erik: That is why I cannot help but return again and again to the question I feel is of utmost importance here: how does being aware, intellectually, of the truth of anatta, lead to the sort of insight needed to terminate the fetters? I'm not denying the importance of studying how all things lack self-nature, but question how this-- without diligently practicing ones' meditative "chops" until the mind is well-trained and can remain focused for long periods of time- -is enough to lead to the sole aim of the Dhamma: the termination of suffering. ***** Sarah: When we talk about ‘all things lack self-nature’, we have to know very precisely what ‘all things’ are. All things are paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) which can be directly known and experienced. If we have the idea that sati should be and be aware of concepts such as walking, eating and body, then this isn’t the intellectual understanding, let alone the direct understanding of anatta. So first, we really have to hear and consider over and over again and test out directly what these realities are. As Num paraphrased in a recent post, ‘the fruit is the easy part’. In other words, with clear intellectual right understanding and sacca nana (as Jaran described so well), the rest takes care of itself..... Just a few reflections for the 4th lunch-hour (a late one today) running. Hope there is something of use;-) Sarah p.s Btw, Much appreciated your kind and helpful comments and response in the recent post to Christine ====================================================== 10682 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: grandma again Dear Christine & Purnomo, I really appreciated your kind post a lot, Christine. You gave a lot of helpul and sensible advice and the story of Vasetthi is always a good reminder of how anyone of us can go 'mad' at anytime and yet, with the right tendencies and opportunities for developing wisdom, it is possible to follow the 'path'. She even became foremost in the vinaya amongst the nuns as I recall. Many thanks. May I also say that you have a real skill like your uncle and Sariputta for telling stories.....you have me wanting to ask 'and then..?' or 'what next....' and then 'Ohhhh..;-(' when you end;-) Sarah ================================================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Once upon a time, when I felt great grief, I found out that even > those, like Vasetthi, who were very nearly Arahants didn't escape > this dukkha. Knowing this didn't stop my pain, but it helped, > somehow. > > Vasetthi was born in Vesali and was happily married to a man whom she > bore a son. When her child died, she went mad and ran away from > home.... Eventually, she came to Mithila, encountered the Buddha and > regained her sanity. Then Vasetthi joined the nuns' sangha and later > became an arahant. > > > Grief-stricken for my son, > mad-minded, out of my senses, > I was naked with wild hair > and I wandered anywhere. > > I lived on trash heaps, > in a graveyard, > and by the highways. > Three years' wandering, > starved and thirsty. > > Then in the city of Mithila > I saw the one who tames > what is untamed > and goes his way in happiness, > enlightened, unafraid. > > I came to my senses > paid homage, > and sat down. > > Out of compassion, > Guatama (Buddha) taught me the way. > When I heard his words > I set out into homelessness. > By putting his teachings into practice, > I realized great joy. > > My grief is cut out, > finished, ended, > for I have understood the ground > from which all grief comes. > > May you soon be peaceful and happy, Purnomo > > May you understand the ground from which all grief comes > > May you live with ease and well being. ........................................ 10683 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Dear Robert Ep, I thank you, and my dog thanks you too.... actually we both believe he's always been more skillful than I at solving Koans:-) I think it is because dogs don't get headaches...... After all, he knew the answer to the question "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" well before I did...... "A dog wagging its tail in the breeze." metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine and Lucy, > Here's one of my favorite zen koans for the occasion. Perhaps the dog and cat > will find it interesting. > > Monk: When heat and cold come, how can we avoid them? > Master: Why don't you go to the place where there is no cold or heat? > Monk: Where is the place where there is no cold or heat? > Master: When it's hot the heat kills you, when it's cold the cold kills you. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ============= > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Having consulted the dog, he's decided to stay home - hates water, > > hard to even catch him for a bath. :-) > > > > Is it part of the human condition to always think the grass is > > greener elsewhere? > > > > Hope to see more posts from you, > > Christine > > 10684 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 1:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] On Lobha/Dosa and Vedana Dear Manji, As Rob K said, it's good to see all your own wise reflection. It can be quite a confusing area and yet very important in daily life. Like you mentioned in the earlier post, there is unpleasant bodily feeling (dukkha) when we feel too hot or cold, but this is just vipaka, the result of kamma. There isn't any dosa. It doesn't hurt or harm us or accumulate any dosa for the future or create new kamma. It is the dosa (and domanassa) on account of this bodily feeling subsequently that causes the trouble so to speak. Hence we can see the importance of understanding the distinction between vipaka cittas and cittas accompanied by lobha or dosa. The same of course applies to experiences and accompanying feelings through the eyes, ears, nose and tongue, followed inevitably by the unwholesome accumulations. --- manji wrote: > After consideration I am now thinking that maybe a little bit confusing > Dukkha and Domanassa. > > So it is dukkha that arises without dosa, since it only arises with the > kaya-vinnana which is akusala vipaka. This life being the result of > akusala kamma. > > However, domanassa only arises with two citta... Prompted and > unprompted. This is making sense ;) > > So still the buddha can be free of dosa, lobha, and moha and still > suffer the pains of the body until parinibbana. There still is dukkha, > yet it is limited to only the body consciousness. The mental > consciousness does not fall into unpleasant feeling. Yes, for the arahats there are no more conditions for kilesa to arise. Vipakka is still experienced for the rest of the life. bodily feeling is always pleasant (sukkha) or unpleasant (dukkha). You can find more discussion on the different meanings of dukkha under this heading in useful posts; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > This is most fortunate to be discovering, Manji, I feel the same and I'm so glad you've prompted more consideration...you've raised very helpful points and i appreciate your interest. Look forward to hearing any more of your reflections. Sarah p.s Rob K- good to see you around;-) Have a good trip to Bkk this weekend. ==================================================== 10685 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 3:25am Subject: Re: What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... Robert: Thanks for asking. I remember Mike was saying that you were coming to BKK. I wish I had time to join you. Have fun, and wish A. Sujin 'Happy Birthday' for me. Maybe we can meet next time, around Chinese new year? Regards, jaran > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Jaran, > Very nice posts. Any chance of coming back to bangkok this weekend? > I arrive on friday night and leave monday night. > robert 10686 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 3:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: grandma again Hi Christine and Sarah: May I say I agree with Sarah completely. I am glad you made it home OK. I enjoyed meeting you in BKK. It was a lot of fun. What's more fun is your account of the trip. I just recovered from a few days of laughing. ;-) You know, Christine I myself am quite embarrased to ask questions, so I am so glad you are here asking all these critical and helpful questions. Please continue for me. :-) See you soon, jaran, wandering, independent spirit --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: 10687 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions ... about ghosts ;-) Kom and Christine: Well said Kom. May I also add a minor detail here that by dedicating the merits to these ghosts, one (who does it) does not lose the merits one performs. Instead, another kind of merits (kusala) has arisen from the generous act. Regards, jaran > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description > includes > > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember > them for food > > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any > food left > > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none > of my > > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality > extended to > > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have > died in > > Christian countries over the centuries. > > > > The ghosts being dependent in this context may refer to > being dependent on getting dedication of merits. When we > commit kusala kamma, we (should) dedicate the merit to those > who can know about the merit so they can rejoice > (anumoddhana) of that kusala kamma. For transfer of merit, > see: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 > > Some ghosts get foods/shelters/clothings through anumoddhana > of merits dedicated to them. > > kom 10688 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:07am Subject: Re: Elementary questions Dear Eric, nice meeting you and Eath too :-), Much gratitude for your clearly written and knowledgeable post. I appreciate your clarifying 'mundane' and 'supramundane', as well as describing the primary factors you take into account when considering the Precepts. It certainly takes them out of the historical context and shows they are true in any time period or place. One small point about the precept against killing ...... doesn't this refer to sentient beings or potential sentient beings only, and in that case, would not refer to bacteria or plants or unfertilised eggs? I found the Sabbasava Sutta 'All the Fermentations' very interesting. (In my copy by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi it is called 'All the Taints') Are fermentations, defilements, taints and fetters different words for the same things.......or are my problems bigger than I first thought? And are there any more categories I have yet to hear of? In this sutta, where it says " And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops mindfulness as a factor of awakening dependent on seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor of awakening...persistence as a factor of awakening...rapture as a factor of awakening...serenity as a factor of awakening...concentration as a factor of awakening...equanimity as a factor of awakening dependent on seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing." A little confusing for me here ...... rapture and serenity are definitely factors of awakening? Mandatory to achieve? or one possible way, among others, to go? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "rikpa21" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Thanks for your reply Robert. Just a question > > about 'characteristics'. You mention that characteristic of > cetana > > is hard to know, and that there can be direct knowledge of the > > characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha. Are > > these 'characteristics' listed, taught or discussed anywhere that > I > > can learn more about them? > > Hi Christine (Nice meeting yuo the other day, BTW), > > The "Sabbasava Sutta" lists a number of characteristics of thing > that are wholesome and unwholesome, things to be considered and > things to be set aside: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn002.html > > > Both Num and you mentioned Wrong View, so I had another look at > the > > Sammaditthi Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/maj/mn9.htm 'The Discourse on > Right > > View' - it seems more complex than my first reading, packed with > > several layers of meaning...... > > Indeed, as it lists sixteen ways by which one may be said to possess > Right View. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn009.html > > > I have heard about 'mundane' and 'supramundane' right view. This > > Sutta doesn't seem to mention them directly (?), though the > > repetition of the term 'Noble disciple" seems to imply someone > with > > more understanding than the average, ordinary person. > > The technical definition of "Noble Disciple" refers to the ariyan > disciple--one who has directly realized the Four Noble Truths and > thus "entered the stream" (this consists of sotapannas, or "stream- > enterers"; sakadagamis, or "once returners"; anagamis, or "non- > returners"; and arahats--who are fully enlightened and permanently > free from suffering). > > For example: "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the > unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the > root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose > view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has > arrived at this true Dhamma." > > In my reading of this Sutta, it is speaking of the supramundane > Right View of an ariyan disciple, though not exclusively the > ariyan disciple permanently freed from the effluents and suffering, > the arahat. I base this interpretation on the following passage, > just from the language therein, which suggests that this is an > initial understanding eventually leading to final liberation: > > "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root > of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he > entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the > underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying > tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance > and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of > suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, > whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and > has arrived at this true Dhamma." > > Note specifically this does not say (s)he has already entirely > abandoned those tendencies, but abandons them (suggesting this is a > part of an ongoing process, and not a fait accompli)..."and in that > way too [constrasted with the initial stanza], a noble disciple is > one of Right View". > > I think these are important points to bear in mind on reading this > sutta: 1. that the first stanza refers to those who have > supramundane Right view but are still "trainers", and the > last stanza of each passage refers to the arahat, one permenently > freed from suffering. In this way this sutta refers to all eight > types of noble disciples. > > > Misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome - The morals and > mores > > of societies and cultures differ and also change with the passing > of > > time. 'Misconduct' appears a very broad and vague term...not > like, > > for instance, the explicit prohibition 'Thou shalt not commit > > adultery' of the Christian ten commandments. > > You raise a very valid and extremely relevant point here, because it > touches on in important point regarding the meaning and intent of > the precepts. > > Why did the Buddha suggest taking up certain actions and abandoning > others, for example? Based on my understanding, the precepts serve > as guidelines of behavior associated with the abandonment of > unwholesome qualities and with the increase of wholesome qualities. > > As you suggest, societal mores are inconstant, fabricated, dependent > on time and circumstance, whereas the precepts do not share this > fickle basis. > > The way I view the precepts takes at least two primary factors into > acccount: does a though, word, or deed serve to increase unskillful > qualities in my own (or another's) mind? If yes, then that thought, > word, or deed, is unskillful, to be put down. Conversely, does a > given though, word, or deed, lead to an increase in skillful > qualities? If yes, this a quality to be taken up. But first, it is > helpful to clearly understand what qualities are skillful and what > qualities are unskillful. > > Any qualities that lead to increased attachment, to aversion, or to > ignorance (in both myself or in another), are unskillful, to be > abandoned. Any qualities which lead to non-attachment, to non- > aversion, to understanding (again, in both myself or in another), > are to be developed. > > Note well these factors are true regardless of prevailing mores, and > entirely dependent on the nature of the type of mind arising with > the thought, word, or deed (though it is still wise to take into > consideration the prevailing attitudes of those who do not yet > understand this, and who may become upset even by wholesomely > motivated words or deeds--so it's not a simlpe matter of thinking "I > have a good intention" and can therfore act in any old way I see fit > so long as I believe I am acting with the proper motivation). > > > How are we to conduct our lives without more clarity and guidance > on > > what are wholesome/unwholesome actions in this regard? Wouldn't > the > > same 'rules' have to apply through the ages for Kamma to be 'fair'. > > I believe taking the above factors into consideration addresses the > question. None of these factors have anything to do with the > prevailing mores of a given society ultimately--which depend on > things like culture, geography, and accident, as much as unexamined > prejudices and popular trends of the day. So simply kowtowing > to "rules" or mores imposed by a given society has nothing to do > with the inner meaning and intent of the precepts. > > In fact, slavish adherence to precepts for their own sake (as mere > outer rules without any consideratiuon of their inner meaning or > intent) is a form of "silabbataparamasa"--one of the fetters > abandoned at stream-entry, though I am in no way suggesting that one > dispense with training in precepts like the patimokkha, the vinaya, > or otherwise, which I believe are critical aspects of moral training > (sila) that eventually lead to the direct understanding of the > spirit, rather than the letter, of the Law, becauase they help > engender at least absetntion of verbal and bodily misconduct, though > what goes on in the mind is another matter entirely :) > > > Taking what is not given is unwholesome. How far does 'taking > what > > is not given' extend? I read somewhere recently that 'taking what > is > > not given' could be extended to mean even things like - unless the > > hen brought an egg to you and bowed and presented you with it, > then > > you were 'taking what was not given' if you kept hens for the > purpose > > of obtaining eggs. I expect this could also be extended to milk > and > > honey and all animal life..... > > Some interpret it this way (this is prevalent among many Chinese > Mahayanins, for example), and some don't. The question boils down > to, again, motivation. Is there the wish, out of attachment (or > aversion) present in the act of taking a hen's egg, for example? > > What about killing life-threatening baceria with antibiotics, or a > mosquitoes that carries a fatal (to a human) form of Dengue fever, > for example? Or in taking a hen's egg for food, without aversion to > said hen, or covetousness, but simply as a requisite for bodily > survival. It this "taking what is not given"? I am not going to make > any judgment here; I believe it is incumbent on us to discern if > such activity is skillful or unskillful. There is even likely to be > significant disagreement among many on points such as these, as I'ev > seen within the Buddhist community! > > Again, I think the salient question here is what is motivating the > thought, deed, or word? This is where the kamma is created, as a > function of volitional intention (cetana). > > If the motivation behind any thought, word, or deed, is truly pure > (meaning alobha, adosa, amoha), than by any definition that cannot > ever yield an unwholesome result, karmically spekaing--even though a > wholesomely motivaetd word or deed may piss a few people off > temporarily--even one is confident it will brings them lasting > benefit (which is why it I believe it wise to consider the effect > one's words and deeds have on others, even though one may choose in > spite of risking someone's temporary discontent if it serves a > bigger-picture wholesome agenda). > > Another thing I think valuable to consider is the fact the Buddha > taught the Middle Way. For example, even the Buddha did not eschew > eating meat, and the vinaya is explicit that monks accept all alms > given them, whether meat or not, and eat accordingly, without either > attachment or aversion to what has been offered. > > Constrast the Buddha's Middle Way with that of the Buddha's cousin > Devadatta, who not only attempted to create a schism in the Sangha > by attempting to divide the Sangha along the lines of extremely > restrictive precepts including refraining from meat-eating, but also > attempted, out of a fit of jealous rage, to murder the Buddha! > > I don't now if you've found this beneficial of not, Christine. In > the ultimate sense, all of these things are entirely up to us to > come to discern for uorselves anyway, in dependence on our > accumulated wisdom. I only hope that you have found these points > have helped to clarify rather than to confuse. :) 10689 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: Characteristics (Christine) Dear Robert, I was glad of the link to Amazon in the U.K. I wasn't previously aware of it, and have ordered 'Cetasikas' and 'Atthalasini' that is so often quoted from. Until I increase the number of books I have access to (very few), I'll have to depend on quotes from others - such as those you give in your post. Thanks. I especially liked the 'good worldling' references. Before seeing those it seemed to me that one was either enlightened or nothing. Nice to know there is a level between the two extremes. Though how to know if you are 'learning and developing correctly'? Sometimes seems a little hit and miss to me....... The Mulapariyaya Sutta "The Root of All things" on first reading looks quite difficult to understand ...... perhaps it's worth my getting The Discourse on the Root of Existence? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Just a question > > about 'characteristics'. You mention that characteristic of > cetana is hard to know, and that there can be direct knowledge > of the characteristic of wrong view (ditthi) or of lobha. Are > > these 'characteristics' listed, taught or discussed anywhere > that I can learn more about them? > ++++++++++++++ > Nina van Gorkom's book 'Cetasikas' available at www.amazon.co.uk > (not in USA) has many references and great explanations on all > of these . Ditthi, cetana and lobha are mental phenomena (nama) > and are entirely different from rupa (material phenomena) . The > path of practice discerns the differences. > In the mulapariyaya sutta (see bodhi "root of existence") the > Buddha explains that 'the uninstructed worldling perceives earth > as earth......and he perceives the seen as the seen ..the heard > as he heard...the sensed as the sensed..the cognised as the > cognised..Having perceieved the cognised as the cognised he > conceives himself as the cognised..in the cognised...apart from > the cognised..the cognised is mine..What is the reason? Because > it has not being fully understood." > Just some quotes from the commentary and tika to this sutta: p39 > "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas: > This is said for the purpose of showing that these are mere > dhammas endowed with the specific natures deviod of such > attributions as that of 'being' etc... These dhammas are > discovered as ultimately real actualities. And although there is > no disctinction between these dhammas and their characteristics > the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical > device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known, > according to their specific nature, thus tey are > dhammas."endquote > > The uninstructed worldling knows dhammas, he knows when he > craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle > vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. But he conceives them > wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enligthened one > experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. > The "uninstructed worldling" p40 > "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither > learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither > the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving > because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate > the aggregates, elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of > conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor > spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what > should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed'. end > qoute > Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' > there is the "good worldling' who is learning and developing > correctly: > p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling > in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and > the other is the worldling noble and good"endquote > > Some more quotes about earth: p47. "What friends is this > internal earth element? That which is internal..hard, solid. > this is characteristic earth" > p51 "One who attains jhana through the earth element may adhere > to the object perceived in his meditation as a self or he may > take that as a sign of his superiority. Thus he conceives "I am > earth'..earth is mine" > p57. "Therein what is full understanding of the known? he fully > understands the earth element thus: This is the internal earth > elemnt, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its > function, manifestation and proximate cause" > Earth is given as an example and the commentary notes that the > same can be said of all elements (namas and rupas)p60. "when one > idea is mentioned all ideas of like characteristic are mentioned > too". > Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his introduction p14 That "in the stage > of full understanding of the known, the gross object is analysed > into its constituent dhammas and each dhamma is delimited in its > distinct characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate > cause. This procedure rectifies the common sense assumption of > simple substantial unites, disclosing in its place a world of > composite wholes brought tempoarraily together through a > concatenation of conditions" enquote. > It can't be stressed enough that this procedure is not limited > to thinking about these matters but that it is by the direct > insight into these dhammas as they arise in the present moment > that is true insight. If this is properly done then gradually, > over a very long time, wisdom will develop and result in > enlightenment. > The enlightened one then p33,34 "directly knows earth as > earth..he does not conceive himself as earth..he does not > conceive himself apart from earth..he does not conceive earth is > mine..he does not delight in earth" > best wishes > robert 10690 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Dear Sarah, Thanks for the book urls ...... I've ordered "Buddhism in Daily Life" and look forward to its arrival. I smiled at you and your mother talking about the weather. It occupies a lot of talking-time and email time here as well - I think it comes of being too close to agrarian roots (or maybe we're just a boring lot). Couldn't resist adding this (promise not to do it again). You know you're in an Australian Summer When... -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* The best parking place is determined by shade instead of distance. Hot water now comes out of both taps. You learn that a seat belt buckle makes a pretty good branding iron. The temperature drops below 35C and you feel a little chilly. You discover that in February it only takes 2 fingers to steer your car. You discover that you can get sunburned through your car window. You develop a fear of metal car door handles. You begin to perspire the instant you step outside at 7:30 a.m. Your biggest bicycle wreck fear is, "What if I get knocked out and end up lying on the pavement and cook to death?" You realise that asphalt has a liquid state. Farmers are feeding their chickens crushed ice to keep them from laying hard-boiled eggs. The cows are giving evaporated milk. The trees are whistling for the dogs. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > If you decide to buy any of the books, you may try the following which we > use: > > Pali Text Society (PTS) texts direct from PTS.....catalogue on webpage. If > you become a member, you get a discount and free book. > > Buddhist Publication Society (BPS) direct (can be v.slow or out of print) > or some of the texts are available from: > > Amazon Books.....very fast and efficient (different categories of posting > for the patient and impatient) > > Wisdom Books...similar, but I think we've only used Amazon > > All the urls can be found in the bookmarks on the dsg homepage: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > > Sorry to be a little vague. If you're putting in an order at Wisdom Books > (maybe Amazon too?), I highly recommend Nina VG's 'Buddhism in Daily > Life'. (We were looking for a copy at the Foundation for you but they were > out of stock there). > > Hope you liked the Atth quote in my post to Manji.....we can see how > universal and timeless the Teachings are.....when I talked to my mother on > the phone at the weekend, almost half the conversation was about the > weather.....but then we are English;-) > > Good to see all your interesting questions to Rob K > > Sarah 10691 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Dear Kom, Thank you for your explanation, it was very helpful........the more I learn, the more there is to learn:-) I really appreciate the link to re transfer of merit - it makes sense to me now, and together with Jarans' additional comment about the original doer not losing the merit, makes me realise that it is a habit worth cultivating. Quote: "When the Thais or other Buddhists say that "a merit can be transferred", what is actually done is: 1) The original doer of the wholesome deeds tells those that can know (human, devas, ghosts, etc) that a wholesome deed has been done. This dedication/making-known the wholesome deed is a "merit" accumulation for the doer. 2) The entity hearing about the deed rejoices (anumoddhana) the wholesome deeds of others. This rejoicing is a merit accumulation for the person rejoicing." end quote. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Not sure if this would help or not... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > > > 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or > elsewhere > > to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to > Sariputta, one of > > his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second > only to the > > Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the > monks under > > his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master > it. In > > this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down > to us > > intact." > > The beginning of Dhammasangani in the Abhidhamma pitaka > mentions this. I didn't find any translation on the web, so > if you have access to the tipitaka, you may be able to look > that up. > > > > > 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as > subtle and > > 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great > > elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), > fire(temperature), and > > wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the > 28 classes > > of rupa? > > Yes, the four great elements are part of the 28. There are > only 28 types of rupa: there are no others. > > > > > 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as > 8 > > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't > seem > > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in > things > > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. > (although I > > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). > Covetousness and ill > > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' > , they seem > > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone > 'intend/plan/deliberately > > want', to have wrong view? > > Just like all dhammas, intention (cetana cetasika) arises > when there are conditions for it to arise. Do we agree that > we don't like the unpleasant feelings that come with anger? > Yet, we continue to have episodes of anger, some mild and > some stronger. The intention (kamma) is said to produce > results of different degrees. Some, when the factors of > becoming kammapada are fulfilled, can cause rebirth. Others > can cause different kinds of results (there are some > references going on now in the thread 'Luminous Mind'). We > all have the common wrong view of self, and some (if not > most!) also have other kinds of wrong views. Wrong views > easily come when we have associations with people with wrong > views. There are at least a couple of suttas where the > Buddha taught dhamma to a layperson who took Nigantha as the > teacher and he became a sotapanna after listening to the > sermon. (Migara, Visakha's father-in-law, was a Nigantha > disciple who became an ariyan). Even somebody who have > accumulated enough to become an ariyan still has the wrong > views in the lifetime that they become an ariyan! > > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description > includes > > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember > them for food > > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any > food left > > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none > of my > > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality > extended to > > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have > died in > > Christian countries over the centuries. > > > > The ghosts being dependent in this context may refer to > being dependent on getting dedication of merits. When we > commit kusala kamma, we (should) dedicate the merit to those > who can know about the merit so they can rejoice > (anumoddhana) of that kusala kamma. For transfer of merit, > see: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 > > Some ghosts get foods/shelters/clothings through anumoddhana > of merits dedicated to them. > > kom 10692 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: grandma again Hi Jaran, (wandering, independent spirit) :-) I really enjoyed meeting you too, and gained a lot from your articulate, learned contributions to the discussions. Your remarks about my questions make me feel better about asking them (though dsg list has alway been supportive and encouraging), - there is no other way I can try to learn and understand. Hope we can all be in Bangkok together again one day.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "jaranoh" wrote: > Hi Christine and Sarah: > > May I say I agree with Sarah completely. I am glad you made it home > OK. I enjoyed meeting you in BKK. It was a lot of fun. What's more fun > is your account of the trip. I just recovered from a few days of > laughing. ;-) > > You know, Christine I myself am quite embarrased to ask questions, so > I am so glad you are here asking all these critical and helpful > questions. Please continue for me. :-) > > See you soon, > jaran, wandering, independent spirit 10693 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye There is nothing new about this at all. It will not have a negative effect on the Buddhasasana at all. Even this area is covered in the Abhidhamma. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wynn" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > Hi, > > What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) Buddhism and > meditation? > > http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story > > Seeing more than meets eye > > Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways > > By Ronald Kotulak > Tribune science reporter > Published January 1, 2002 > > Near-death experiences, in which people believe they see the bright light of > heaven at the end of a tunnel, may be nothing more than the brain cells that > process vision lighting up in such a way so as to reveal the circular > pattern of how they are wired together. > > New research also indicates that prehistoric cave and rock art depicting > spirals, zigzags and other geometric forms may have been done by artists > experiencing the same kind of drug-induced hallucinations that people today > have when they take LSD, mescaline, Ecstasy and other psychedelic compounds. > > A visual hallucination is defined as seeing something that's not there. They > are relatively common, and almost all cultures from prehistoric times on > have used drugs to induce hallucinations for religious, healing and artistic > purposes. > > But science now suggests that near-death images and other hallucinations > involving geometric patterns are really there-- on the inside of the brain. > > Inducing creative mood > > People like Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Cary Grant, Allen Ginsberg, > Tallulah Bankhead, the Beatles, Charles Dickens, Timothy Leary and Salvador > Dali, who used hallucinogens in the hopes of inducing a creative mood, were > actually lighting up their brain wiring. > > "[It] surged upon me an uninterrupted stream of fantastic > [kaleidoscopic-like] images of extraordinary plasticity and vividness," is > how Albert Hoffman, the brilliant Swiss chemist, described his first > experience with LSD, a compound he had synthesized in 1938. > > Hallucinations can also be caused by anesthetics, fatigue, hunger, stress, > alcohol, fever, adverse drug reactions, sleep deprivation, bright flickering > lights and even pressure on the eyeballs. > > Normally, the 100 million neurons of the credit-card size visual cortex at > the back of the head convert what our eyes see into edges color, depth and > other features, and then reassemble the pieces into recognizable scenes of > the outside world. > > The process works fast. About 40 milliseconds after seeing an object, edge > detectors are activated and in another 40 milliseconds the edges become > pieced together into contours and the beginnings of surfaces. This > information goes to other parts of the brain to be compared with stored > memories. > > In far less than a second you've basically solved the problem of vision, of > remembering, recognizing and sorting out what the object is. > > In the case of a hallucination, this does not happen. Through the action of > drugs or other influences, the edge detectors become disengaged from the > rest of the network and begin firing on their own. > > The resulting hallucination reflects the pinwheel pattern of brain cells > that process lines, curves and other geometric shapes, providing a > remarkable view of the physical architecture of the visual cortex, according > to recently published findings by Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago > and Paul Bressloff of the University of Utah. > > "It's almost like seeing your own brain through a mirror," Cowan said. > "You're basically seeing patterns that your own brain is making." > > 4 basic groups > > Cowan, who is a mathematician and a neurologist, has been studying > hallucinations for 20 years. He was intrigued by the work of another U. of > C. scientist, Heinrich Kluver, who in the 1920s and 1930s classified the > drawings of people experiencing drug-induced hallucinations into four basic > categories--tunnels and funnels; spirals; lattices; and cobwebs. > > Based on new findings from optical imaging, in which scientists can actually > see which neurons light up in the visual cortex of cats and monkeys when > they view different lines and contours, Cowan, Bressloff and their > colleagues developed a mathematical model that can accurately predict the > shapes of different hallucinations. > > "We calculated that given the kinds of anatomy in the visual cortex, there > are only four kinds of patterns it will make when it goes unstable," Cowan > said. "It turns out that those four kinds of patterns we get from the math > correspond exactly to the four classes of patterns that Kluver ended up with > based on his looking at the drawings." > > Terry Sejnowski, director of the Salk Institute's Computational Neurobiology > Laboratory, said the work of Cowan and Bressloff could have wide application > in the areas of artificial intelligence and artificial vision. > > "They have created a mathematical model which replicates surprisingly well > the states that the brain gets into when it's having visual hallucinations," > he said. "These hallucinatory states are really abnormal conditions. > Sometimes you learn a lot about a complex system from the conditions which > occur when it breaks down or when it's not operating under normal > conditions." > > The mathematical study of vision is also helping to explain near-death > experiences. Essentially they are physical representations of striplike > columns of neurons in the visual cortex that form a tunnel pattern. > > "What actually happens when somebody takes a drug is the first thing they > experience is a very bright light in the center of the visual field, which > is very reminiscent of this sort of light in the tunnel when people think > they see heaven beckoning in the distance," Bressloff said. > > "What seems to happen is that this bright light spreads across the visual > field and from that state then this structure emerges which is the seed for > the hallucination pattern," he said. > > Drug-induced drawings > > Since spirals, tunnels, zigzags and other hallucinatory patterns can be > found in the art of almost all cultures and go back more than 30,000 years, > many anthropologists speculate that they were done under the influence of > hallucinogenic drugs or self-induced trances, and that these experiences > served as the origin of abstract art. > > The foremost masters of hallucinogenic experiences are shamans, ritual > practitioners in hunting-and-gathering societies who enter altered states of > consciousness to achieve a variety of ends that include healing the sick, > foretelling the future, meeting spirit-animals, changing the weather and > controlling animals by supernatural means, according to Jean Clottes, > scientific adviser to the French ministry on prehistoric art, and David > Lewis-Williams, professor of cognitive archeology at the University of > Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. > > In their study of shamans, religious mystics and visionaries around the > world, Clottes and Lewis-Williams found that while drugs are widely used to > induce hallucinations, trances are also used to produce unusual mental > imagery. Trances can be induced through sensory deprivation, prolonged > social isolation, intense pain, vigorous dancing and insistent, rhythmic > sound, such as drumming and chanting. > > 3 stages of trances > > In their book, "The Shamans of Prehistory: Trance and Magic in the Painted > Caves," Clottes and Lewis-Williams outline three stages of trance. > > In the first stage trance, people "see" geometric forms, such as dots, > zigzags, grids, parallel lines, nested curves and meandering lines. In the > second stage, subjects try to make better sense out of the geometric imagery > by illusioning them into objects of religious or emotional significance, > such as construing a zigzag line into a snake. The third stage is reached > via a vortex or tunnel, at the end of which is a bright light. When people > emerge from the tunnel they find themselves in a bizarre world where > geometric patterns become mixed with monsters, people and settings. It is in > this stage where the drawings of humans with animal features occur. > > Clottes and Lewis-Williams concluded: "We emphasize that these three stages > are universal and wired into the human nervous system, though the meanings > given to the geometrics of Stage 1, the objects into which they are > illusioned in Stage 2, and the hallucinations of Stage 3 are all > culture-specific, at least in some measure, people hallucinate what they > expect to hallucinate." > > > Copyright © 2002, Chicago Tribune 10694 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye Instead of putting your question out to so many lists. Why not study Dhamma? Sun~n~ataa refers specifically to the annata doctrine. All phenomena are insubstantial. When one really practices Dhamma, then one is able to completely understand the term "hallucination". It was used by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. in his THE VIPASSANA-DIPANI: The Manual of Insight. It was not a cursory use of the term, either. The Three Vipallasa Vipallasa means hallucination, delusion, erroneous observation, or, taking that which is true as being false, and that which is false as true. There are three kinds of Vipallasa, to wit: Sanna-vipallasa: hallucination of perception; Citta-vipallasa: hallucination of thought; Ditthi-vipallasa: hallucination of views. Of these three, hallucination of perception is fourfold, thus: It erroneously perceives impermanence as permanence; Impurity as purity; Ill as good; and No-soul as soul. The same holds good with regard to the remaining two vipallasa, i.e. those of thinking and viewing. All these classifications come under the category of "This is mine! This is my Self or living Soul!" and will be made clear later. The three Vipallasa may be illustrated respectively by the similies of the wild deer, the magician, and a man who has lost his way. This is the simile of the wild deer to illustrate the hallucination of perception. In the middle of a great forest a certain husbandman cultivated a piece of paddy land. While the cultivator was away, wild deer were in the habit of coming to the field and eating the young spikes of growing grain. So the cultivator put some straw together into the shape of a man and set it up in the middle of the field in order to frighten the deer away. He tied the straws together with fibres into the resemblance of a body, with head, hands and legs; and with white lime painting on a pot the lineaments of a human face, he set it on the top of the body. He also covered the artificial man with some old clothes such as coat, and so forth, and put a bow and arrow into his hands. Now the deer came as usual to eat the young paddy; but approaching it and catching sight of the artificial man, they took it for a real one, were frightened and ran away. In this illustration, the wild deer had seen men before and retained in their memory the perception of the shape and form of men. In accordance with their present perception, they took the straw man for a real man. Thus their perception of it was an erroneous perception. The hallucination of perception is as here shown in this allegory of the wild deer. It is very clear and easy to understand. This particular hallucination is also illustrated in the case of a bewildered man who has lost his way and cannot make out the cardinal points, East and West, in the locality in which he is, although the rising and setting of the sun may be distinctly perceived by any one with open eyes. If the error has once been made, it establishes itself very firmly, and is only with great difficulty to be removed. There are many things within ourselves which we are always apprehending erroneously and in a sense the reverse of the truth as regards Impermanence and No-soul. Thus through the hallucination of perception we apprehend things erroneously in exactly the same way that the wild deer take the straw man to be a real man even with their eyes wide open. Now for the simile of the magician to illustrate the hallucination of thought. There is a pretended art called magic by means of which when lumps of earth are exhibited in the presence of a crowd, all who look at them think they are lumps of gold and silver. The power of the magical art is such as to take from men their ordinary power of seeing and in its place put an extra-ordinary kind of sight. It can thus for a time, turn the mind upside down, so to speak. When persons are in command of themselves they see lumps of earth as they are. But under the influence of this magical art, they see the lumps of earth as lumps of gold and silver with all their qualities of brightness, yellowness, whiteness, and so forth. Thus, their beliefs, observations, or ideas, become erroneous. In the same way our thoughts and ideas are in the habit of wrongly taking false things as true and thus we delude ourselves. For instance, at night, we are often deceived into thinking we see a man when it is really the stump of a tree that we are looking at. Or, on seeing a bush, we imagine we are looking at a wild elephant; or, seeing a wild elephant take it to be a bush. In this world all our mistaken ideas as to what comes within the field of our observation, are due to the action of the hallucination of thought which is deeper and more unfathomable than that of the perception, since it deludes us by making false things seem true. However, as it is not so firmly rooted as the latter, it can easily be removed by investigation or by searching into the causes and conditions of things. Now for the simile of the man who has lost his way, to illustrate the hallucination of views. There was a large forest haunted by evil spirits, demons, who lived there building towns and villages. There came some travelers who were not acquainted with the roads through the forest. The demons created their towns and villages as splendidly as those of Devas, or celestial beings and themselves assumed the forms of male and female Devas. They also made the roads as pleasant and delightful as those of the Devas. When the travellers saw these, they believed that these pleasant roads would lead them to large towns and villages, and so, turning aside from the right roads, they went astray following the wrong and misleading ones, arriving at the towns of the demons and suffering accordingly. In this allegory, the large forest stands for the three world of Kama-loka, Rupa-loka and Arupa-loka. The travelers are all those who inhabit these worlds. The Right Road is Right Views; and the misleading road is Wrong Views. The Right Views here spoken of are of two kinds, namely, those that pertain to the world, and those pertaining to Enlightenment. Of these two, the former is meant to connote this right view; "All beings are the owners of their deeds; and every deed, both moral and immoral, committed by oneself is one's own property and follows one throughout the whole long course of life" while the latter is meant to connote the knowledge of the Doctrine of Causal Genesis, of the Aggregates, of the Ayatana (Bases), and No-Soul. Of these two views, the former is as the right road to the round of existences. The worlds of the Fortunate (i.e., the abodes of human beings, Devas, and Brahmas), are like the towns of good people. The erroneous views that deny moral and immoral deeds and their results or effects, and come under the names of Natthikaditthi, Ahetuka-ditthi, and Akiriya-ditthi, are like the wrong, misleading roads. The worlds of the Unfortunate which are the abodes of the tortured, of Animals, Petas, and Asuras, are like the towns of the demons. The right view of knowledge which is one of the factors of Enlightenment, is like the right road that leads out of the round of existence. Nibbana is like the town of good people. The views "My Body!" and "My Soul!" are also like the wrong and misleading roads. The world comprising the abodes of human beings, Devas, and Brahmas, or the ceasless renewing of existences, is like the towns of the demons. The aforesaid erroneous views are known as the hallucinations, such being deeper and more firmly established than that of thought. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So why do people persist as they do thinking they are practicing Dhamma? Why is there, for example, so much brainy discussion of Dhamma on the lists? Simple. It is the difference between cariyadhamma and sabhaavadhamma --- and few people know the difference. The Buddha did not just provide ethical guidelines for a virtuous life. He did not obfuscate a thing! What He did do was offer a scientific, fully credible, fully investigatable insight into the nature of reality. Perhaps you would do better to practice sabhaavadhamma first and "experience" the nature of reality, rather than asking questions and getting a variety of answers --- perhaps from people who are hallucinating! What kind of "seeing" you accomplish that is more than meets the eyes and is clearer than visual perception alone? ----- Original Message ----- From: "wynn" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > Hi, > > I don't understand what you mean? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: manji > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 9:54 AM > Subject: RE: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > > How so with the understanding of sunyata? :) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: wynn [mailto:wewynal@t...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:26 PM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) > > > Buddhism and meditation? > > > > > > http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story > > > > > > Seeing more than meets eye > > > > > > Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways > > > > > > By Ronald Kotulak > > > Tribune science reporter > > > Published January 1, 2002 > > > > > > Near-death experiences, in which people believe they see the > > > bright light of heaven at the end of a tunnel, may be nothing > > > more than the brain cells that process vision lighting up in > > > such a way so as to reveal the circular pattern of how they > > > are wired together. > > > > > > New research also indicates that prehistoric cave and rock > > > art depicting spirals, zigzags and other geometric forms may > > > have been done by artists experiencing the same kind of > > > drug-induced hallucinations that people today have when they > > > take LSD, mescaline, Ecstasy and other psychedelic compounds. > > > > > > A visual hallucination is defined as seeing something that's > > > not there. They are relatively common, and almost all > > > cultures from prehistoric times on have used drugs to induce > > > hallucinations for religious, healing and artistic purposes. > > > > > > But science now suggests that near-death images and other > > > hallucinations involving geometric patterns are really > > > there-- on the inside of the brain. > > > > > > Inducing creative mood > > > > > > People like Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Cary Grant, > > > Allen Ginsberg, Tallulah Bankhead, the Beatles, Charles > > > Dickens, Timothy Leary and Salvador Dali, who used > > > hallucinogens in the hopes of inducing a creative mood, were > > > actually lighting up their brain wiring. > > > > > > "[It] surged upon me an uninterrupted stream of fantastic > > > [kaleidoscopic-like] images of extraordinary plasticity and > > > vividness," is how Albert Hoffman, the brilliant Swiss > > > chemist, described his first experience with LSD, a compound > > > he had synthesized in 1938. > > > > > > Hallucinations can also be caused by anesthetics, fatigue, > > > hunger, stress, alcohol, fever, adverse drug reactions, sleep > > > deprivation, bright flickering lights and even pressure on > > > the eyeballs. > > > > > > Normally, the 100 million neurons of the credit-card size > > > visual cortex at the back of the head convert what our eyes > > > see into edges color, depth and other features, and then > > > reassemble the pieces into recognizable scenes of the outside world. > > > > > > The process works fast. About 40 milliseconds after seeing an > > > object, edge detectors are activated and in another 40 > > > milliseconds the edges become pieced together into contours > > > and the beginnings of surfaces. This information goes to > > > other parts of the brain to be compared with stored memories. > > > > > > In far less than a second you've basically solved the problem > > > of vision, of remembering, recognizing and sorting out what > > > the object is. > > > > > > In the case of a hallucination, this does not happen. Through > > > the action of drugs or other influences, the edge detectors > > > become disengaged from the rest of the network and begin > > > firing on their own. > > > > > > The resulting hallucination reflects the pinwheel pattern of > > > brain cells that process lines, curves and other geometric > > > shapes, providing a remarkable view of the physical > > > architecture of the visual cortex, according to recently > > > published findings by Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago > > > and Paul Bressloff of the University of Utah. > > > > > > "It's almost like seeing your own brain through a mirror," > > > Cowan said. "You're basically seeing patterns that your own > > > brain is making." > > > > > > 4 basic groups > > > > > > Cowan, who is a mathematician and a neurologist, has been > > > studying hallucinations for 20 years. He was intrigued by the > > > work of another U. of C. scientist, Heinrich Kluver, who in > > > the 1920s and 1930s classified the drawings of people > > > experiencing drug-induced hallucinations into four basic > > > categories--tunnels and funnels; spirals; lattices; and cobwebs. > > > > > > Based on new findings from optical imaging, in which > > > scientists can actually see which neurons light up in the > > > visual cortex of cats and monkeys when they view different > > > lines and contours, Cowan, Bressloff and their colleagues > > > developed a mathematical model that can accurately predict > > > the shapes of different hallucinations. > > > > > > "We calculated that given the kinds of anatomy in the visual > > > cortex, there are only four kinds of patterns it will make > > > when it goes unstable," Cowan said. "It turns out that those > > > four kinds of patterns we get from the math correspond > > > exactly to the four classes of patterns that Kluver ended up > > > with based on his looking at the drawings." > > > > > > Terry Sejnowski, director of the Salk Institute's > > > Computational Neurobiology Laboratory, said the work of Cowan > > > and Bressloff could have wide application in the areas of > > > artificial intelligence and artificial vision. > > > > > > "They have created a mathematical model which replicates > > > surprisingly well the states that the brain gets into when > > > it's having visual hallucinations," he said. "These > > > hallucinatory states are really abnormal conditions. > > > Sometimes you learn a lot about a complex system from the > > > conditions which occur when it breaks down or when it's not > > > operating under normal conditions." > > > > > > The mathematical study of vision is also helping to explain > > > near-death experiences. Essentially they are physical > > > representations of striplike columns of neurons in the visual > > > cortex that form a tunnel pattern. > > > > > > "What actually happens when somebody takes a drug is the > > > first thing they experience is a very bright light in the > > > center of the visual field, which is very reminiscent of this > > > sort of light in the tunnel when people think they see heaven > > > beckoning in the distance," Bressloff said. > > > > > > "What seems to happen is that this bright light spreads > > > across the visual field and from that state then this > > > structure emerges which is the seed for the hallucination > > > pattern," he said. > > > > > > Drug-induced drawings > > > > > > Since spirals, tunnels, zigzags and other hallucinatory > > > patterns can be found in the art of almost all cultures and > > > go back more than 30,000 years, many anthropologists > > > speculate that they were done under the influence of > > > hallucinogenic drugs or self-induced trances, and that these > > > experiences served as the origin of abstract art. > > > > > > The foremost masters of hallucinogenic experiences are > > > shamans, ritual practitioners in hunting-and-gathering > > > societies who enter altered states of consciousness to > > > achieve a variety of ends that include healing the sick, > > > foretelling the future, meeting spirit-animals, changing the > > > weather and controlling animals by supernatural means, > > > according to Jean Clottes, scientific adviser to the French > > > ministry on prehistoric art, and David Lewis-Williams, > > > professor of cognitive archeology at the University of > > > Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. > > > > > > In their study of shamans, religious mystics and visionaries > > > around the world, Clottes and Lewis-Williams found that while > > > drugs are widely used to induce hallucinations, trances are > > > also used to produce unusual mental imagery. Trances can be > > > induced through sensory deprivation, prolonged social > > > isolation, intense pain, vigorous dancing and insistent, > > > rhythmic sound, such as drumming and chanting. > > > > > > 3 stages of trances > > > > > > In their book, "The Shamans of Prehistory: Trance and Magic > > > in the Painted Caves," Clottes and Lewis-Williams outline > > > three stages of trance. > > > > > > In the first stage trance, people "see" geometric forms, such > > > as dots, zigzags, grids, parallel lines, nested curves and > > > meandering lines. In the second stage, subjects try to make > > > better sense out of the geometric imagery by illusioning them > > > into objects of religious or emotional significance, such as > > > construing a zigzag line into a snake. The third stage is > > > reached via a vortex or tunnel, at the end of which is a > > > bright light. When people emerge from the tunnel they find > > > themselves in a bizarre world where geometric patterns become > > > mixed with monsters, people and settings. It is in this stage > > > where the drawings of humans with animal features occur. > > > > > > Clottes and Lewis-Williams concluded: "We emphasize that > > > these three stages are universal and wired into the human > > > nervous system, though the meanings given to the geometrics > > > of Stage 1, the objects into which they are illusioned in > > > Stage 2, and the hallucinations of Stage 3 are all > > > culture-specific, at least in some measure, people > > > hallucinate what they expect to hallucinate." 10695 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 6:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kom And Nina On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Dear Kom How are you? Basically, I provided merely common sense interpretations on the use of the particle "api", which, by the way, has different meanings in different contexts. Please just look at the sentence "janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi." As janakam, by its very name, refers to an efficacious action that produce results. And we know that different actions lead to different results. That is to say, one type of janakam can be different from another type of janakam. In the statement of Buddhaghosa, these differences are described in terms of kusalam and akusalam. To express such differential ideas in English, I prefer the syntax "either ... or" to that of "both .. and" because the "either .. or" syntax reflects more faithfully the differential ideas the original statement intended to convey. Even if translating "api .. api" as "both .. and" is correct grammatically, it does not convey differential ideas unambiguously. For example, 1. To gamble is both to lose and to win. 2. To gamble is either to lose or to win. Janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. 1. Efficacious action is both good and bad. 2. Efficacious action is either good or bad. Please kindly observe that the subject "Janakam" is in the singular number. Now please compare the translations 1 and 2. I believe that only the translation (2) conveys the intended meaning of the Pali sentence. To make the translation (1) correct, we need to change the subject and verb into the plural number like this. Janakaani kusalampi honti akusalampi. 1. Efficacious actions are both good and bad. The new Pali sentence means that efficacious actions include both good ones and bad ones. Similarly, we can explain the Pali sentence: Tam patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. 1. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise both at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) both during the current lifetime." 2. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental aggegates to arise either at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) or during the current lifetime." Please also observe that the subject "Tam" is in the singular number. According to the translation (1), Buddhaghosa seemed to convey the idea of the same janaka kamma producing results, once at the moment of linking consciousness (conception) and then, again during the current lifetime. But, I do not think that Buddhaghosa intended to covey the meaning of the translation (1). Therefore, only the translation (2) makes sense. And, to make the translation (1) correct, we need to change its subject and verb into the plural number like this. Taani patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janenti. I hope the above discussion serves, at least, as a form of intellectual entertainment. With best wishes, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Suan, > > Thanks for your kind comment. Do you have any additional > pointer on the > phrase: "or during the current lifetime?" The other > translations I saw didn't phrase it that way and they don't > offer additional notes. > > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 7:33 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Nina And Kom > > On Kamma Modifying > > Bhavanga Cittam > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kom > > > > How are you? > > > > Thank you for your kind sharing of B. Nanamoli's > > translation on > > janaka kamma. > > > > I quoted part of your post: > > > > "It produces the material and immaterial > > aggregates both at rebirth > > linking and during the course of an existence. > > > > It is interesting that Bhikkhu Nanamoli has left > > the term "vipaaka" > > untranslated in his translation. > > > > And his translation of the particle "api" as > > "both ..and" is rather > > strong at best and is misleading at worst because > > it could mean that > > janaka kamma first produced its result at rebirth > > linking, and then > > later produced its results again during the > > current lifetime. > > > > I prefer to translate "api" in this context as > > "either ..or". Janaka > > kamma could produce its result at the moment of linking > > consciousness. If not, it could produce its > > result during the current > > lifetime. > > > > Similarly, his translation "what is called > > productive is both > > profitable and unprofitable." is rather > > misleading. He could have > > translated the expression "kusalampi hoti > > akusalampi" as either > > profitable or unprofitable". > > > > > > With kind regards, > > > > Suan > > > > http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit > > wrote: > > > Dear Suan, Nina, Ken O, Sarah, and Num, > > > > > > I believe this passage can also be read from B. > > Nanamoli's > > > Path to Purification, under Purification by Overcoming > > > Doubt, XIX, 18, page 621, passage 16. I will quote the > > > entire passage below: > > > > > > [16] Another fourfold classification of > > kamma is this: > > > productive, consolidating, frustrating, and supplanting. > > > Herein, (ix) what is called productive is > > both profitable > > > and unprofitable. It produces the material and > > immaterial > > > aggregates both at rebirth linking and during > > the course of > > > an existence. (x) Consolidating kamma cannot produce > > > result, but when result has already been produced in the > > > provision of rebirth-linking by other kamma, it > > consolidates > > > the pleasure or pain that arises and makes it > > last. (xi) > > > and when result has already been produced in > > the provision > > > of rebirth-linking by other kamma, frustrating kamma > > > frustrates and obstructs the pleasure or pain > > that arises > > > and does not allow it to last. (xii) > > Supplanting kamma is > > > itself both profitable and unprofitable; and it > > supplants > > > other, weaker kamma, prevents it resulting and > > usurps that > > > kamma's opportunity in order to cause it own result. But > > > when the opportunity has thus been furnished by > > the [other] > > > kamma, it is that [supplanting kamma's] result that is > > > called arisen. > > > > > > There are two notes associated with this > > section that might > > > be of interests: > > > > > > [4] '"Productive" kamma is what produces resultant > > > continuity by providing rebirth-linking and so on. > > > "Consolidating" kamma prolongs the occurence of the > > > continuity of pleasure or pain, or the endurance of > > > materiality. "Frustrating" kamma slowly diminishes the > > > endurance of pleasure or pain when they occur. > > It cuts off > > > the result of other kamma without giving any > > result of its > > > own. "Supplanting" kamma, however, cuts off > > weak kamma and > > > makes its own result arise. This is their > > difference' (Pm. > > > 771). > > > > > > [5] See the various meanings of > > 'arising' given in Ch. > > > XXII, 81f > > > 'Another method is this: when some kamma > > has been done and > > > there is, either in rebirth-linking or in the course of > > > existence, the arising of material instances due to the > > > result of kamma performed, that kamma is > > "productive". When > > > some kamma has been performed and the desirable or > > > undesirable fruit generated by other kamma has its > > > production facilitated and its endurance aided and > > > lengthened by the suppression of conditions that would > > > interfere with it and by the arousing of conditions that > > > would strengthen it, that kamma is > > "supporting". Whe some > > > kamma has been performed and profitable fruit or > > > unprofitable fruit generated by productive kamma is > > > obstructed by it respectively in the form of > > sickeness or of > > > disquieting of elements, that is "frustrating" > > kamma. But > > > when some kamma has been done by which the > > fruit of other > > > kamma is ruined and cut off by being supplanted > > by what cuts > > > it off although it was fit for longer endurance > > because of > > > the efficacy of the kamma tha was producing it, > > that kamma > > > is "supplanting"' (Pm. 772) > > > > > > kom > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:24 AM > > > > 687. .....Tattha janakam naama kusalampi hoti > > > > akusalampi. Tam > > > > patisandhiyampi pavattepi > > > > ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > > > > > > > "...There, janakam is either healthy or unhealthy > > > > action. It (janaka > > > > kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > > > aggegates to arise > > > > either at the moment of linking consciousness > > > > (conception) or during > > > > the current lifetime." 10696 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 6:51am Subject: Reminders from the Guidelines Dear All, 1.Please remember to trim posts to remove any part of the previous message(s) that it is not necessary to be retained for your reply. 2. If articles or quotes are more than a page or two in length, please use hyperlinks if they are available elsewhere on line. Jon & Sarah 10697 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 8:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kom And Nina On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Dear Suan, Thank you very much for you note. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: abhidhammika [mailto:abhidhammika@y...] > > Dear Kom 10698 From: wynn Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye Hi, > When one really practices Dhamma, then one is able to completely understand > the term "hallucination". It was used by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, > Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. in his THE VIPASSANA-DIPANI: The Manual of Insight. > It was not a cursory use of the term, either. I am aware of this article too. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL01.html > Vipallasa means hallucination, delusion, erroneous observation, or, taking > that which is true as being false, and that which is false as true. This is different that what the term hallucination means in the article I sent. I have explain this to you in another list. Hallucination there means having vision, meditation experience/vision, near death experience, when we are taking drugs etc. Things of such nature. THE NIYAMA DIPANI ( The Manual of Cosmic Order ) Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Agga Maha Pandita, D.Litt. http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/ledinyma.htm So we read in the Pali texts: 'These, bhikkhus, are the four cases of hallucination. What are the four? The impermanent is taken as permanent.' This is the first point involved in hallucinations of recognition, sense consciousness and illusory opinion. 'That which is ill is taken as weal. That which is not-self is taken as self. The ugly and offensive is taken as beautiful and beneficial.' These are the remaining three cases of the hallucinations of recognition, sense-consciousness and illusory opinion. 10699 From: wynn Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye Hi, > Sun~n~ataa refers specifically to the annata doctrine. All phenomena are insubstantial.< I am aware of this well. i have just sent this to my friend because of a question he asked. Sunyata Nagarjuna's doctrine of sunyata is based on the Theravada teachings. Sutta Nipata V.15 [119](Mogharaja-manava-puccha) (Excerpt) Ever mindful, Mogharaja, See the world as void (sunna) ------ Suñña Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.85) (Excerpt) Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, Lord. In what respect is it said that the world is void?" "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. Walpola Rahula in "Theravada & Mahayana Buddhism" wrote : Some people think that Voidness or Sunyata discussed by Nagarjuna is purely a Mahayana teaching. It is based on the idea of Anatta or non-self, on the Paticcasamuppada or the Dependent Origination, found in the original Theravada Pali texts. Once Ananda asked the Buddha, "People say the word Sunya. What is Sunya?" The Buddha replied, "Ananda, there is no self, nor anything pertaining to self in this world. Therefore, the world is empty." This idea was taken by Nagarjuna when he wrote his remarkable book, "Madhyamika Karika". Besides the idea of Sunyata is the concept of the store-consciousness in Mahayana Buddhism which has its seed in the Theravada texts. The Mahayanists have developed it into a deep psychology and philosophy. In "Zen and the Taming of the Bull" (London: Gordon Frazer,1978), he wrote: "Naagaarjuna, perhaps the boldest thinker of the Buddhist masters ... took up this idea of `suunyataa and, with his tremendous genius, further developed it into such dizzy heights that now it is considered as Naagaarjuna's philosophy" (p. 81). ======= When Manji wrote: > How so with the understanding of sunyata? :) I don't understand what he mean or the context he is refering too. Probaby due to my bad English. That is why I asked for clarification. ======== Just some non-sense: From the Tibetan tradition, it is understood to start first with intellectual clarification. Why? Because it is the first thing at hand and easy to see. The person is an integrated whole and who you are and what you are depends on what you think and feel in the first place. Therefore clarity in thought. in intellect make the path of "seeing" easier and more productive. If we start with "intellectual baggage" and go straight into "meditation" then we carry that baggage with us and clarity is obscured. It is a fallacy to think that "meditation" can save us, this is to fall into dualistic thinking in which one or more parts of what it is to be human are neglected. Mind takes precedence over body, intellect takes precedence over emotion, and so on. One way leads to asceticism and the devaluing of the world. The other leads to hedonism and he devaluing of the mind. Either way is a neglect of what it is to be human. A type of "spiritual sloth" well recognized in Buddhism. 10700 From: Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... Hi Mr. Wandering, independent spirit (Jaran), I guess that is what your name really literately means (jaral, jaralee), correct :) ? I just like to say thank you and express my appreciation and anumodhana about you posts from a meeting in BKK and on dsg. May I ask you to summarize the possible meanings of both "pandara" and "papasara" in 2 lines both the difference, similarity between the two. Sorry, my attention span is limited ;). Appreciate, C U when I C U. Num 10701 From: rikpa21 Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:09am Subject: Re: Elementary questions --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > One small point about the precept against killing ...... doesn't this > refer to sentient beings or potential sentient beings only, and in > that case, would not refer to bacteria or plants or unfertilised eggs? On this question, the Buddha noted that in a previous life he had been "overly scrupulous" to the point of obsessing about organisms in a drop of water (I believe this is from a Jataka tale, but may be from the actual Suttas) and the fear or causing them even the slightest harm, and how this did not lead to enlightenment. The Buddha's path is the Middle Way. The Buddha observed that overscrupulousness is a hindrance, just like heedlessness and unscrupuklousness is a hindrance. It's that "Middle Way" thing again! :) And, if you want to get technical in how you define "sentience," the following link may provide an interesting (and a rather amusing) perspective, though it's a bit off-topic: http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/microminds.html > In [the Sabbasava Sutta] sutta, where it says > > " And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There > is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops > mindfulness as a factor of awakening dependent on > seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go. He > develops analysis of qualities as a factor of awakening...persistence > as a factor of awakening...rapture as a factor of > awakening...serenity as a factor of awakening...concentration as a > factor of awakening...equanimity as a factor of awakening dependent > on seclusion...dispassion...cessation, resulting in letting go. The > fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to > develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. > These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing." > > A little confusing for me here ...... rapture and serenity are > definitely factors of awakening? Mandatory to achieve? or one > possible way, among others, to go? The specific pali terms here are piti (rapture) and passadhi (serenity), and are two of the bojjhangas (seven factors of enlightenment): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn46-014a.html Right Mindfulness is a requisite condition for bringing the first factor of enlightenment to its culmination, sati (mindfulness) being the first of these seven limbs. Dhamma-vicaya (investigation into dhammas) is the second; viriya (aroused persistence) is the third; piti (rapture) the fourth; passadhi the fifth; samadhi (concentration) the sixth; and upekkha (equanimity) being the last. According to the Buddha's analysis in the Anapanasati Sutta, each factor serves as the basis for the following factor: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Each of these factors are worthy of investigating in greater depth by themselves, and, I think, especially how they fit into the overall scheme outlined by the Buddha in terms of the Bodhipakkiya Dhammas (the 37 Factors of Enlightenment)--which form the essence of the Buddha's teachings, and is the core of both the Theravada and all extant Mahayana traditions I'm familiar with. To grasp the outline of these 37 factors well is to understand the entire framework within which the Buddha taught, and as such is, in my opinion, worth studying with great care, attention to definjitions and details, and careful revclection and wise consideration. An excellent sumary of all 37 factors (and how they fit together as the path that leads to release) will, in my opinion, do more to give the "big picture" of the Dhamma than nearly any other avenue of study. Thanissaro Bikkhu's marvelous summary here provides an excellent starting point for investigating the complete framework of the practices the Buddha taught that lead to final release: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/wings/ Of course, this merely provides the theoretical framework for the Buddha's teachings, and as such is but a guideline. It can never substitute for the direct experience of the Buddha's truths in our own direct experience. 10702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 10:10am Subject: Cambodia on web Dear friends, for those who would like to read A. Sujin's Cambodian talks, it is on the Zolag web now. http://www.zolag.co.uk> Nina. 10703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind: from BKK discussion op 08-01-2002 01:35 schreef Jaran Jai-nhuknan op jaranoh@y...: > > According to a pali expert and A. Sujin, the word 'luminous' (in thai > "bo-ri-suth") is from two different pali words: pandara and pabhassara. > My point is...study what you can understand. The more you learn, the > more confused and worried you are, then you are probably doing something > wrong (hopefully not from the begining!). > >Dear Jaran, both of your reports are really excellent, I enjoythem and I have printed them out. Hopefully, many more will come, hungry for more! We shall keep in contact, Nina. > 10704 From: Lucy Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Dear Robert Wonderfully appropriate! My cat didn't say "Mu" she's a Burmese cat, doesn't go for koans. Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Epstein" > Dear Christine and Lucy, > Here's one of my favorite zen koans for the occasion. Perhaps the dog and cat > will find it interesting. > > Monk: When heat and cold come, how can we avoid them? > Master: Why don't you go to the place where there is no cold or heat? > Monk: Where is the place where there is no cold or heat? > Master: When it's hot the heat kills you, when it's cold the cold kills you. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ============= > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > Having consulted the dog, he's decided to stay home - hates water, > > hard to even catch him for a bath. :-) > > > > Is it part of the human condition to always think the grass is > > greener elsewhere? > > > > Hope to see more posts from you, > > Christine > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > > Thanks, Christine > > > > > > Yes, you can have all of this wonderful wet wet wet , and the cold, > > > the wind and the dark winter days. All yours! (but it's not crisp, > > > more like...soggy) > > > > > > My cat has lived under the duvet the past 2 months, maybe your dog > > > wants to trade places too? > > > > > > Lucy 10705 From: Lucy Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] sloth/torpor mental or physical? Dear Frank (and Robert) Thanks for the question. Do you think that there may be two different meanings for sloth/torpor? One as a mental state arising in meditation (one of the hindrances) and the other as two different akusala cetasikas? I always found Vasubandhu's explanations of sloth and torpor as cetasikas quite helpful: Sloth: "it is a lack of enthusiasm towards the beneficial in a citta, and is that which is not in accord with vigour" Torpor: "a concentration of citta which is without capacity for entering down into anything" Seen from that perspective, sloth appears to encompass all sorts of things, even very lively activities. Makes me think sometimes that often my daily routine is neatly divided into work, sloth and torpor. But it sounds like in the article you read sloth/torpor (as one of the five hindrances) are a set/pattern of mental actions taking place in meditation (sadly, I'm all too familiar with those too!) ? and they are one rather than two separate things? Sorry if these questions are a bit too basic - slow learner here Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank kuan" To: "dsg" ; "nsbb" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 1:12 AM Subject: [dsg] sloth/torpor mental or physical? > I read recently (mindfulness in plain english I > believe, or maybe wings to awakening?) that > sloth/torpor as one of the 5 hindrances is a purely > mental phenomena. I'm not sure I buy into that or at > least I'm misunderstanding something. > > For example, I can respond with a dull, somewhat > oblivious state of mind whether there is a > physiological basis (drowsiness, etc.) or listening to > a boring professor with a monotone voice. In BOTH > cases, that state of mind appears the same to me, but > in one of them there seems to be a physical cause > (drowsiness), whereas the other case not. So if I > understand the correct Buddhist definition of > sloth/torpor, am I to label one mental state as > sloth/torpor if it does not have drowsiness as a > cause, and the other state as drowsiness instead of > sloth/torpor, even though both states of mind appear > to be the same to me? > > -fk 10706 From: Lucy Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:03 AM Subject: [dsg] Elementary questions > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for food > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in > Christian countries over the centuries. > Dear Christine I read somewhere that unhappy ghosts /petas can only feed if food is offered specifically to them. Among Japanese Buddhists it is customary to leave always a little food on the plate for the petas. But I never found an explanation on *how* is it that they feed. Perhaps the how is not very important. Leaving some food behind is a good exercise on mindfulness when eating! Lucy 10707 From: Lucy Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on-line bookstores (UK) Dear Christine (and others) You may also be interested in these two additional sites to order books on-line from the UK: http://www.buddhismnow.com/index-web.htm "Buddhism Now resource centre for Buddhists. Information on the Buddha and his teachings. Free e postcards. Articles, books and tapes on: Meditation, Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, Pure Land, Vipassana, Buddhist Sangha community, magazine. All you need to practice Buddhism." (They're also a small Buddhist publishing firm, so I like to support them - and they're just as quick as Amazon) http://www.wisdom-books.com/ They are the bigger suppliers of Buddhist books in the UK. I think Amazon UK orders from them. They're a bit slow on deliveries but they're a nice bunch of dedicated people - and very helpful to answer questions or recommend books on certain topics Best wishes Lucy 10708 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Thanks Lucy, I agree about the mindfulness - especially worth making it a habit when you grew up being made to eat every last little bit, because of the starving children in the world who would have been grateful for your cabbage and pumpkin....(I was always willing to post it to them!) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "christine_forsyth" > To: > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:03 AM > Subject: [dsg] Elementary questions > > > > > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description includes > > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember them for > food > > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any food left > > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none of my > > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality extended to > > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have died in > > Christian countries over the centuries. > > > > Dear Christine > > I read somewhere that unhappy ghosts /petas can only feed if food is > offered specifically to them. Among Japanese Buddhists it is customary > to leave always a little food on the plate for the petas. But I never > found an explanation on *how* is it that they feed. Perhaps the how is > not very important. > > Leaving some food behind is a good exercise on mindfulness when > eating! > > Lucy 10709 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on-line bookstores (UK) Thanks Lucy - I'll have a browse this evening - late for work (nearly) now metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine (and others) > > You may also be interested in these two additional sites to order > books on-line from the UK: > > http://www.buddhismnow.com/index-web.htm > "Buddhism Now resource centre for Buddhists. Information on the > Buddha and his teachings. Free e postcards. Articles, books and tapes > on: Meditation, Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism, Zen, Pure Land, > Vipassana, Buddhist Sangha community, magazine. All you need to > practice Buddhism." > (They're also a small Buddhist publishing firm, so I like to support > them - and they're just as quick as Amazon) > > http://www.wisdom-books.com/ > They are the bigger suppliers of Buddhist books in the UK. I think > Amazon UK orders from them. They're a bit slow on deliveries but > they're a nice bunch of dedicated people - and very helpful to answer > questions or recommend books on certain topics > > Best wishes > Lucy 10710 From: Lucy Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] more on-line bookstores (UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" > Thanks Lucy - I'll have a browse this evening - late for work > (nearly) now > He-he! She's about to go to work and I'm about to go to sleep. Half a world apart! Lucy 10711 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye No. Hallucination stands for the same things in the late Ledi Sayadaws work. Í am certain of this. Besides, why would there be different categories of the term? It stands denoted in the material you presented as well as in the Niyama Dipani, i.e., the definition of hallucination in both places is extant. And note, too, it is most interesting that those who are deluded and suffering with hallucinations, induce even more of them! With the use of mind altering substances there are many possibilites, but there is no doubt that a paradoxical effect has occured in some cases, where a person used a mind altering substance only to find reality hit home hard --- and sometimes it makes all the difference: some people taste the Dhamma and there is no other taste like that, leaving behind the drugs, the shortcuts, and actually develop a practice. So, the article you sent and the term used by the late Venerable stand as the same term. Make no mistake about this, and to argue this point would be ludicrous. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wynn" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > Hi, > > > When one really practices Dhamma, then one is able to completely > understand > > the term "hallucination". It was used by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, > > Aggamahapandita, D.Litt. in his THE VIPASSANA-DIPANI: The Manual of > Insight. > > It was not a cursory use of the term, either. > > I am aware of this article too. > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL01.html > > > Vipallasa means hallucination, delusion, erroneous observation, or, taking > > that which is true as being false, and that which is false as true. > > This is different that what the term hallucination means in the article I > sent. I have explain this to you in another list. > Hallucination there means having vision, meditation experience/vision, near > death experience, when we are taking drugs etc. Things of such nature. > > > THE NIYAMA DIPANI > ( The Manual of Cosmic Order ) > Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Agga Maha Pandita, D.Litt. > http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/ledinyma.htm > > So we read in the Pali texts: 'These, bhikkhus, are the four cases of > hallucination. What are the four? The impermanent is taken as permanent.' > This is the first point involved in hallucinations of recognition, sense > consciousness and illusory opinion. 'That which is ill is taken as weal. > That which is not-self is taken as self. The ugly and offensive is taken as > beautiful and beneficial.' These are the remaining three cases of the > hallucinations of recognition, sense-consciousness and illusory opinion. > 10712 From: manji Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye Before I send this, I pay homage to and take refuge in the Buddha... I pay homage to and take refuge in the Dhamma... I pay homage to and take refuge in the Sangha... Understanding dhamma as right now moments of reality, ultimate realities... So how is this speaking of "hallucination" any different than pannati? In the experience of the plant, the flower, the speaker, the vision, the hallucination... how are these moments any different? There is rupa... may be colour, there may be sound etc, may be a concept (pannati) There is citta... whether it be kusala, akusala, vipaka etc... There is cetasika... Sabacitta-sadharana always arising every moment... Pakinnaka cetasika... Akusala cetasika... Sobhana cetasika. These moments, even in hallucination experience are still rising and falling... The rupa in hallucination, Colors, sounds, feelings... Etc... Maybe thinking of pannati (concept) of hallucination, taking this as the rupa, Object of thought. This is an obstruction. Maybe with mindfulness listening? Mindfulness... Sati... Also rising and falling, perhaps even in hallucination experience... Right here in samsara... Sati is rising and falling... Now all the dhamma... Citta... Cetasika... Rupa... All are empty, impermanent, not-self... Dukkha. So even in hallucination... Right here in samsara... Knowing dhamma as empty, impermanent, not-self... Dukkha. ... all things are essentially empty... not born... not destroyed... without loss... without gain... Prajna paramita! Gate... Gate... Paragate... Parasamgate... Bodhi... Svaha! So maybe going listening to dhamma teaching, listening to dhamma, Right here... Right now :) Thank you for a most auspicious moment... :) -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: wynn [mailto:wewynal@t...] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:11 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > Hi, > > I don't understand what you mean? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: manji > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 9:54 AM > Subject: RE: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > > How so with the understanding of sunyata? :) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: wynn [mailto:wewynal@t...] > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:26 PM > > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) > > > Buddhism and meditation? > > > > > > > http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story > > > > > > Seeing more than meets eye > > > > > > Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways > > > > > > By Ronald Kotulak > > > Tribune science reporter > > > Published January 1, 2002 10713 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi Jaran > In nittesavara, cakkhuvi~n~naana is said to be pandara because of its > base, kusala citta is pandara because itself is pure, akusala citta is > pandara because it 'flows' (comes) from bhavanga citta (which is pure, > in the human realm), and all vipaka cittas are pure because of their > bases (like that of cakkhuvi~n~naana). k: "akusala citta is pandara because it 'flows' (comes) from bhavanga citta (which is pure, in the human realm". this is a bit hard to accept bc it flows from bhavanga citta, hence it is considered pure. I was wondering what kind of logic is this. On one hand we said that akusala citta is not pure bc of the the kilesa then one the other hand bc it flows from bhavanga, hence it consider pure. To me this is confusing. Since if the commentary said that all cittas are intrinsic pure, so could we imply that luminious mind in luminious sutta could be any cittas rather than bhavanga cittas. Why can't it be akusala cittas then since it is defiled by defilements (the accompanying cetasikas). then could we imply an underlying nature of pureness. > What is the definite conclusion, then? > > We try very hard to interprete all the passages in this 84000 verses so > that they are ALL in 100 % agreement. A. Sujin always says that it is > almost impossible to do unless the reader understands what's the purpose > > of the passage and to whom it was intended, and it is impossible to know all that. Therefore, she said never take one passage (or part of it) and interprete it litterally and hold on to that interpetation. More > importantly, she said one should know one's own limit of understanding. > Here we are talking about bhavanga cittas which I doubt that will arise > to be an object of satipatthana for one of us. Although citta is one of > dhukkhas to be studied and known in the Four Noble Truths, there are > other dhammas to be directly experience before bhavanga citta. Study > concepts of dhamma is fun, challenging, and fulfilling, but don't forget > > that we are studying concepts of dhammas (this is probably different > from what you have raised, Victor) so that we can experience them > directly. As A. Sujin always says, study what you can understand [its > characteristics]. This does not mean one should be selective of what to > study, but it reminds all of us to look back and ask ourselves "can I > understand this? Do I really, truely understand this? Does it help me > study realities appearing right now? Do the realities appearing right > now agree with what I just learned?". And when one succeeds in > answering these questions honestly (being a phu-trong), one will gain > real benefit from studying dhamma. She often ends the conversation > regarding this topic by saying 'and one should be a phu-trong when it > comes to the purpose of studying dhamma'. > k: Please ask A Sujin, why is there inconsistency in its meaning. In fact I seldom find (actually I do not have find any) inconsistency in the meaning of various suttas but in this particular meaning of "pure" in Abhidhamma there is a lot of inconsistency. Kind regards Ken O 10714 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Children and Parents Hi Yulia and (Robert) >Even smiling on them while they play means they receive pleasnnt object through the eyedoor for those moments... k: will that increase their lobha :). > I think its very helpful to consider the kamma we are making now > with our children. If we see the dangers of attachment then we are > prepared when things go wrong and can help with less expectations. k: Yes as a parent myself, I would agree that we should have less expectations to our children. Imagine in Singapore, children are living in the expectations of their parent who force them to study for academic excellence. A lot of lobha and dosa :). k: I like to suggest that don't be attached to your children eventually when they grow up, we have to separate in our own ways, just a matter of time. More attachment will meant more suffering to us. Your children kamma will be their own choosing we cannot be responsible for theirs so are our kamma to them. To me as long as we have done our duties to bring them up as humane person and provide them with education and care, we have done our job. Furthermore it is difficult for children to understand the marriage problems between parents. As long as we love and care for them as best of our abilities, there is nothing much we could do and hope that (lobha :)) eventually when they grow up they come to terms to it. Even if they don't, then I feel let it be. Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation, we cannot change that even though we could influence them to a certain degree. Hope this helps. kind regards Ken O 10715 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 10:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Elementary questions Hi Kom I thought the Thervada traditions seldom talk abt tranference of merit since each one experience it own kamma by its own actions. How does transference of merit comes into play. How does a being in another realms for eg ghost experience the transferance of merit that we have transfer to them? Kind regards Ken O --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Not sure if this would help or not... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > > > 1. Could anyone give me the reference in the Tipitaka or > elsewhere > > to where "The Buddha also taught the Abhidhamma to > Sariputta, one of > > his chief disciples and the man renowned as the second > only to the > > Buddha. Sariputta in turn taught the Abhidhamma to the > monks under > > his instruction, whose role it was to memorize and master > it. In > > this way the seven books of the Abhidhamma have come down > to us > > intact." > > The beginning of Dhammasangani in the Abhidhamma pitaka > mentions this. I didn't find any translation on the web, so > if you have access to the tipitaka, you may be able to look > that up. > > > > > 2. About rupa - it says that there are 16 classified as > subtle and > > 12 classified as gross. And that there are four great > > elements....earth(solidity), water (cohesion), > fire(temperature), and > > wind(motion). Are these four great elements part of the > 28 classes > > of rupa? > > Yes, the four great elements are part of the 28. There are > only 28 types of rupa: there are no others. > > > > > 3. The ten immoral or unskillful actions - those listed as > 8 > > (covetousness), 9 (ill will), and 10 (wrong view) dont't > seem > > like 'actions' to me. 'Intention' seems to be involved in > things > > like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying etc. > (although I > > suppose some may be attributed to 'impulse'?). > Covetousness and ill > > will, seem much less the result of 'deliberate intention' > , they seem > > to 'just happen'.... And would anyone > 'intend/plan/deliberately > > want', to have wrong view? > > Just like all dhammas, intention (cetana cetasika) arises > when there are conditions for it to arise. Do we agree that > we don't like the unpleasant feelings that come with anger? > Yet, we continue to have episodes of anger, some mild and > some stronger. The intention (kamma) is said to produce > results of different degrees. Some, when the factors of > becoming kammapada are fulfilled, can cause rebirth. Others > can cause different kinds of results (there are some > references going on now in the thread 'Luminous Mind'). We > all have the common wrong view of self, and some (if not > most!) also have other kinds of wrong views. Wrong views > easily come when we have associations with people with wrong > views. There are at least a couple of suttas where the > Buddha taught dhamma to a layperson who took Nigantha as the > teacher and he became a sotapanna after listening to the > sermon. (Migara, Visakha's father-in-law, was a Nigantha > disciple who became an ariyan). Even somebody who have > accumulated enough to become an ariyan still has the wrong > views in the lifetime that they become an ariyan! > > > 4.The realm of unhappy ghosts.....part of the description > includes > > the words "and dependent upon those humans who remember > them for food > > and drink". This is confusing.....how are they to eat any > food left > > out, what happens if no food is left out. Certainly none > of my > > deceased relatives/friends have had this hospitality > extended to > > them, and neither have the hundreds of millions who have > died in > > Christian countries over the centuries. > > > > The ghosts being dependent in this context may refer to > being dependent on getting dedication of merits. When we > commit kusala kamma, we (should) dedicate the merit to those > who can know about the merit so they can rejoice > (anumoddhana) of that kusala kamma. For transfer of merit, > see: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 > > Some ghosts get foods/shelters/clothings through anumoddhana > of merits dedicated to them. > > kom 10716 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 10:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Elementary questions Dear Kenneth, You are absolutely right that each person has kamma as his own: you cannot transfer merit/penalities of one's kamma to another. Yet, one of the 10 kusala deeds is dedication of merit. Would you care to explain how this works? Somehow, I think if you know how this works, you may explain better than I can. There was a discussion on this thread at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 Also, K. Jaran has already add some point to this thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10687 kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:33 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Elementary questions > > > Hi Kom > > I thought the Thervada traditions seldom talk abt > tranference of merit > since each one experience it own kamma by its own > actions. How does > transference of merit comes into play. How does > a being in another realms > for eg ghost experience the transferance of merit > that we have transfer to > them? > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > > 10717 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi Jaran, --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > Hi all: > Thanks you so much for all the details, pali and quotes on pabhassara (luminous) and pandara (pure). A very neat and exetnsive summary. We're also fortunate to have another pali translator in you;-) Your linguistic skills were most impressive in Bkk. I added a couple more examples which I found when I got back from Bkk which you may have seen. I found a few more, but started getting confused and decided it was time to leave it....getting beyond my limit;-) B.bodhi translates pabhassara as ‘radiant’ or ‘radiance’ and my big pali dict uses ‘shining, very bright, resplendent’. In the 5 Corruptions of gold , SN V, 33(3) we read that “sensual desrire is a corruption of the mind, corrupted by which the mind is neither malleable nor wieldy nor radiant (pabhassara- sp?)......” and so on. > > We try very hard to interprete all the passages in this 84000 verses so > that they are ALL in 100 % agreement. A. Sujin always says that it is > almost impossible to do unless the reader understands what's the purpose > > of the passage and to whom it was intended, and it is impossible to know > > all that. Therefore, she said never take one passage (or part of it) and > > interprete it litterally and hold on to that interpetation. This is a really good reminder.... I guess ‘phu-trong’ means sth like ‘sincere’ or ‘honest’ below....? A Thai lesson too;-) Excellent comments...many thanks. SN 1.145 (Pali ref) for pabhassara....I’d be interested in your comments. Thanks Jaran and great to see your posts here. I need to study the other one. Very good reminders for us all in the last part of your post below...As you said in your other one, no rule at all about how much to study..it depends so much on accumulations as we see here on dsg. We need to remember the purpose of the Teachings. Sarah .......... >More > importantly, she said one should know one's own limit of understanding. > Here we are talking about bhavanga cittas which I doubt that will arise > to be an object of satipatthana for one of us. Although citta is one of > dhukkhas to be studied and known in the Four Noble Truths, there are > other dhammas to be directly experience before bhavanga citta. Study > concepts of dhamma is fun, challenging, and fulfilling, but don't forget > > that we are studying concepts of dhammas (this is probably different > from what you have raised, Victor) so that we can experience them > directly. As A. Sujin always says, study what you can understand [its > characteristics]. This does not mean one should be selective of what to > study, but it reminds all of us to look back and ask ourselves "can I > understand this? Do I really, truely understand this? Does it help me > study realities appearing right now? Do the realities appearing right > now agree with what I just learned?". And when one succeeds in > answering these questions honestly (being a phu-trong), one will gain > real benefit from studying dhamma. She often ends the conversation > regarding this topic by saying 'and one should be a phu-trong when it > comes to the purpose of studying dhamma'. > > My point is...study what you can understand. The more you learn, the > more confused and worried you are, then you are probably doing something > > wrong (hopefully not from the begining!). 10718 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 4:11am Subject: Did you get your identity? ...in a person there is a sansaric identity - an identity where we can change any time, any where. an identity we have fully control of. So when we are going to do something, we can think like; "is this me? (meaning - have I behaved like this in the whole of sansara) " "do I want to do this? (meaning - have I wanted to do this in the whole of sansara)?" So if it is a wrong thing which we are going to do...then I can think like - "NO! - This is not me... So I will not do it". If I am going to do a good thing... I can be happy thinking... "Yes, This is me... this is what I have been doing all my sansara". If I feel difficult to do some good thing... I can think... "NO!... I have been doing such good things in Sansara - SO! I am going to do it - no matter what hardship comes..." more a person can think... "This life has added a frame on "ME" as to - you are this and this persons son/daughter, your family is this - these ARE YOUR QUALITIES" - ..... a lot of labels have been pasted on us at birth... It is up to US (Ourselves not united states :) ) - to refine this "ME" labeled on US. Therefore, a person born in a poor family, with courage and his sansaric identity...can uplift the whole family from poverty with courage... thinking "I have been courageous in the whole of sansara... this is my opportunity to uplift my family"... So the society will not see him as the son of those poor parents - but the other way around -- that is -- oohh those are his parents... So! it is up to each one of us to take control of our sansaric identity... the most flexible identity we ever have... the moment we think,,,,,we can change it... May you find the most inner peace you are looking... in this life itself... ~with much meththa Ranil 10719 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Jaran > To me this > is confusing. > Hello Ken O: Sorry, I cannot reduce it any shorter. For a more concise post, please kindly refer to Sarah's post on the comparison of the words 'pabhassara' and 'pandara'. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10717 In the passage you are refering to, I think the word 'pure' here is probably 'pabhassara' meaning 'pure because of being free from defilements'. The answers to your question of consistency seem to be the language. It is unfortunately that in all languages including English (as my third langauge, so don't count on it) words normally contain their 'figurative image' buried in our head. When we say a word, it has an (often misleading) image. It is even more confusing when we try to use one foreign language (English or Thai) to describe yet another foreign subject (Buddhism originally recited in pali). For instance, when we say cittas are 'pure' and bhavanga-citta are 'also pure', we think, naturally, that the word 'pure' here convey the same meaning. Much to our surprise, the two words 'pure' are from different pali words. In pali and Thai, the word 'pabhassara' indicates that the mind is radiant because it is free from kilesas which otherwise cause it to 'lose its luminousity' while 'pandara' describes all cittas to be 'pure' when compared with other dhammas (e.g. cetasikas) as it is one (out of more than 10) description citta. Because of the latter meaning of 'pure' (pandara), akusala-cittas are pure. Don't be confused with 'pure' (pabhassara) bhavanga- and kusala-cittas for the word refers to 'free from uppakilesa'. The question of whether the mind was originally 'pure' (pabhassara) is almost like asking what the beginning of time is like? The Buddha himself does not bother to answer when asked, for the answer will not help his followers eradicate defilements. What's more helpful to his disciples and lay followers is the path towards pure mind which begins by understanding realities appearing right now. If I may say so, I find it unfortunate that the Buddha spent 45 years to teach many useful things that can really be factors for panna to develop in many people in his days, but some people in our days (presumably with less fortunate accumulation, and full of kilesa, in the era that is full of things that lure us away from right understanding) are stuck with a few passages and never get pass them to more important things ('more' important only because they help condition right understanding) like characteristics of reality appearing right now, or the (deeper) meaning of the word dhukkha to name a few... > k: Please ask A Sujin, why is there inconsistency in its meaning. In > fact I seldom find (actually I do not have find any) inconsistency in the > meaning of various suttas but in this particular meaning of "pure" in > Abhidhamma there is a lot of inconsistency. Will try. I did it again; this is getting too long. May your wisdom grow, jaran 10720 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... Hi Num: > I guess that is what your name really literately means (jaral, jaralee), > correct :) ? You got it! Among many meanings, I like this one most. Thank to Sarah and Kom; she kept asking him about it. It is as if Sarah knew you were going to ask this question. Please refer her post below. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10717 Good to be here, jaran > > Appreciate, > > C U when I C U. > > Num 10721 From: Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 2:52am Subject: Somewhat Incommunicado for the Next Two Weeks Hi, all - My wife and I are leaving in a few hours for a two-week trip to a suburb of Dallas, TX (from our home on Long Island, in New York) to visit with our son and daughter-in-law. We'll be going by train (AMTRAK). For the next 48 hours, I''ll have no access to a computer, and after that I will be largely too busy for very much e-mailing, and, again, on the trip back home there will be no computer access at all. If possible, while away I *will* try to respond to any posts that are specifically directed to me, but should I fall short in that, please understand why. Be well all! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 10722 From: Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 7:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Elementary questions Hi Ken and other, > I thought the Thervada traditions seldom talk abt tranference of merit > since each one experience it own kamma by its own actions. How does > transference of merit comes into play. How does a being in another realms > for eg ghost experience the transferance of merit that we have transfer to > them? > Hmm, I saw Kom's post to your answer and looked back on the 2 posts he referred to. Let me share with you what I personally understand and some of my personal experiences. You guys keep talking about ghosts and a dedication to them. Hmm, well I did that once in a while but I think even in this human plane of existence, rushing, competitive and money driven world, it can be done as well. I assume you talk about 2 things, Rejoice (Pattanumodhana) and Giving (transfer) your good deed to other (Pattidhana). Pattidhana : transfer or giving your kusala deed to other, ok ghost but what about parents, siblings, friends, teachers, neighbors, the one we do not like and etc... My parents and my aunts on my birthday, they always do something for me such as donating some money under my name or giving food to monks for me. They usually tell me later. I do not know that their good deed (particularly cetana) can transfer to me. But when someone goes off their ways an extra miles to do something for me, I appreciate that. And I take that as anumodhana. Yes, I have no doubt that there are kusala moments while someone doing good deed and still have room in there hearts to share and give it to other. That is definitely not a lobha moment. I do not know, may be the merit transfer to me when I know later, after they told me and I anumodhana in their deeds ? Pattanumodhana : sound pretty straight forward, to rejoice with others good deed. I think this is not always the case (I am talking about misleading (deceiving) dhamma). To the one I like or love, it's so easy to rejoice, even at times not in their good deed. What's about the one we don't like or the one who gets on our nerve, nobody is all good or all bad. Can we rejoice with their good deed and intentions which happen once in a while. Sound somewhat uneasy to me. A moment that we cannot (choose not to) rejoice with someone's good deed is not a kusala (good) moment. Last but not least, Dhana (giving, donation) in itself also a kusala moment (alobha, adosa and at times with panna (may be, may be not)). I do not have to talk about donation, giving food to the poor b/c that is easily visible. What about being on time with friend or family. Just at the moment we think it's alright to let someone waiting for us when we are late is not an act of alobha. A time when we not stop a car to let the pedestrians cross the road b/c we are in a hurry. Dhana and metta are a strong alliance, as well as selfishness-lobha and dosa. So my feeling is all 3 acts above are kusala moment. Definitely, clinging, wanting, not wanting to share moment can rapidly pop in and out during that kusala moments. I think a lot of people can do this without knowing what is citta-cetasika-rupa-nibbana, but it's hard not to take good deed as this is my good deed. Dhana alone without understanding and panna can be a rich nutrition for further clinging and attachment. Just my thought. Best wishes, Num 10723 From: Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodia on web Dear Nina, Let me express my appreciation in your another good piece of work, (hope for more :)) I printed it out from Zolag and made it into a book. Yes, I put your name and the date of the book on the cover. I have one question, when the trip was taken place? I have not read that far, but so far you did not mention the date of the discussion trip.( if you put it in the later chapter, I have not read that far yet.) Anumodhana, Num 10724 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 8:41pm Subject: human/animal/fish/bird dosa Dear All, I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an Arahant. A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had an overwhelming need to protect her calf. The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - but she killed an Arahant....... 1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? 2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with someone they feared or hated? 3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within which the same namas arise? 4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? metta, Christine 10725 From: manji Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 9:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa - a bit of dhamma Christine, Knowing kusala, akusala, and vipaka cittas is very important, especially when you are saying "subject to strong biological drives". Then there is saying "overwhelming need". So maybe this is not biological drive? So maybe when you are knowing kusala, akusala, and vipaka cittas you can understand them in other beings? Including a real cow, but I am thinking that it is wise to be knowing arising and falling dhamma, right now. To know kusala, there must be kusala citta, to know akusala there must be akusala citta, to know vipaka there must be vipaka citta. Knowing intentions... And right now karma making through kusala and akusala citta. "Protecting" maybe is a smushing together of ten thousand dhamma rising and falling. Maybe being cow mind to figure out and knowing those dhammas instead of one panatti concept dhamma of "protecting". Karma is working many ways... So maybe the guard dog that saved the mother's life bit the neighbor's kid. So the neighbor's brother killed the guard dog. So maybe not knowing all these karma ways. Maybe they all become brothers much later, and are here today learning about dhamma :) Is this dhamma the same in cow and human? There are kusala, akusala and vipaka cittas too... But right now maybe cow concept (pannati) arising. Kamma process has fruits in vipaka... This body is vipaka, a result of kamma. Seeing "cow" concept is also this way. Beings are this way. Using the terms correctly would imply right now - right view. ;) ================= Something that just came to mind, maybe it is close... I pay homage and take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. When the mind listens to dhamma discussion with mindfulness, taking a dhamma as object, there immediately is chanda (zeal) for that dhamma. Naturally then there a sort of "looking" for that object, and finding it (sanna helping). So when listening to all these discussions on dhamma... Really know the dhamma well so that chanda will take the "closest" and "correct" dhamma as object. In this way the analytical mind makes the right connection to the dhamma. Wisdom and path. Sometimes chanda rises after hearing a dhamma discussed, and chanda rises and finding a dhamma as object... But this dhamma is different than the dhamma discussed. LOL... An conventional example would be a potential customer out front of your store talking about fish, and you walk out with a gold watch. Then the next day they are out front talking about frogs, and you walk out with a pig. Then maybe after many days and learning language, they say coconut, and you walk out with a coconut. Then there is much rejoicing and sharing merit! Hehehe. So maybe learning to make the abhidhamma connect to paramattha dhamma. All this through chanda and sanna... And how to see the dhamma and know through chanda and sanna? There must be right view... Right concentration... Right ... Right... Hehehe... ;) So maybe there is an understanding why Abhidhamma is called ABHI-Dhamma. So when hearing dhamma... Really be knowing lobha, really be knowing dosa, really be knowing akusala citta... Really be knowing kusala citta... Really be knowing vipaka citta... All the dhamma are like this. Pannati is also a dhamma... And this concept is an obstruction to seeing... Because it is so very much in daily life... Instead of seeing so many different dhamma rising and falling, just seeing so many different concepts... Which are all under the category of one dhamma... Panatti. So maybe first really making a sincere effort to learn about panatti/concept. And then... Maybe... Seeing panatti as it rises and falls... So there is marking this "concept", and once it is marked, mindfulness can maybe be catching it. Once it is catching it... It is being dissolved... So there can be seeing the other dhamma. So maybe you can understand that there must be a sincere effort to know the dhamma of panatti/concept. This one is so important, because the khamma is so great. The vipaka from that khamma is so great. All this knowing dhamma really does bring more merit than a thousand lifetimes. So understanding what real kusala citta is, and then there will be knowing the answers to these questions. Thank you for this time, -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:42 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa > > > Dear All, > > I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > Arahant. > A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just > chase away) - but she killed an Arahant....... > > 1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > 2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > someone they feared or hated? > 3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > which the same namas arise? > 4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > metta, > Christine 10726 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 10:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... Hi Jaran, I wrote a few more detailed comments and lost them (forgot to do it off-list in a word document), so will just say your posts have been extraordinary in depth and wisdom recently and I found it v.helpful to go through this one more carefully. A difficult and complex topic. There are one or two points which hopefully we can discuss further at Chi NY in Bkk. Someone had said that when one understands the 1st NT, one understands the other 3 NT. KS said when one understands the 1st we can say 'gets the first glimpse' of the others. Not sure if it's relevant to the nirodha question, but look f/w to following up. --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > 4. magga (path to eradicaton of dhukkha) to develop. Development towards > > cessation of dhukkha is to develop the 8-fold path. The path begins to > develop at the moment one understand dhamma intellectually (when sa.mma > ti.tthi, panna, a long with vitaka, viriya, sati and samadhi -- > altogether only five). This is magga sacca ~naana. Again at the moment > of satipa.t.thana all the five arise to perform their function at the > level of kicca ~naana. I always thought one could only say 5fold path begins to develop with satipatthana and direct panna (not just intellectual), but this is interesting....otherwise what is magga sacca ~nana? Anyway I need to consider this more. Sorry, this 2nd attempt is a bit of a quick scribble, but many, many thanks for all the excellent detail and work. It's just great having you around, Jaran. Sarah p.s I don't remember, Oh Wandering Spirit, asking Kom for explanations of any names.....glad to have it all the same! 10727 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 11:32pm Subject: Satipatthana Sutta- sampajanna, vedana, dukkha, lakkhana, sunnatta Hi Jaran, Erik, Christine, Manji, Wyn and others --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: >...... This intellectual RIGHT > understanding automatically conditions one to study the actual realities > appearing right now. > > As sati-sa.mpaja~n~na (right awareness and right view at the moment of > satipatthana) arise to study characteristics of realities (the study in > the level of patipatti), the kicca~naana begins to develop. ....... .......... Sarah: When we were discussing the translations of the Satipatthana Sutta, Erik and I were discussing thelimitations of ‘focussing’ and ‘comprehending’. Afterwards, I checked the detail in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary on the use of sati-sampajanna and quote below from Soma Thera’s translation p.34: ***** "Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Rightly = Correctly [aviparitam]. Entirely = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. Equally = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] Necessary in all circumstances = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness. To point out the things by the influence of which the meditation of the yogi prospers, is the purpose of the words, "Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful." " ***** Sarah: Further on, detailed passages discuss the 4 kinds of sampajanna in far more detail- i.e. clear comprehension of purpose, suitability, resort and non-delusion. These have also been discussed at length on dsg before. I think the following quotes, (p.22) also help us to see importance of panna (wisdom) as being foremost, even when we are discussing satipatthana: ***** "Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ***** Sarah: In the commentary notes under ‘kayanupassi’, we read more detail about the objects of sati-sampajanna, what read to be the paramattha dhammas (p33): ***** "In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. What he sees = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. What is seen that he does not properly see = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. Not seeing properly he is shackled = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]." ***** Sarah: Manji also raised the useful topic of feelings and dukkha recently and the following quote may be helpful on the ‘ultimate’ meaning of dukkha with regard to vedana (feelings) (p40): ***** "For this has been said by the Blessed One: "All that is felt is in suffering, I declare [yam kiñci vedayitam tam sabbam dukkhasminti vadami." All that is in suffering = Everything experienced is plunged, included, in suffering [sabbantam vedayitam dukkhasmim antogadham pariyapannam], because the ill natural to the formations, the constituents in life, cannot be conquered [sankhara dukkhata nativattanato]. And pleasure should also be contemplated upon as suffering. All should be explained according as the Arahant-nun Dhammadinna spoke (to her former husband Visakha, in the Cula-vedalla Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya): Pleasant feeling, friend Visakha, is agreeable while it lasts and is disagreeable when it changes; painful feeling is disagreeable while it lasts and agreeable when it changes; the neither pleasant nor painful feeling is agreeable when there is a knowledge of its existence and disagreeable when that knowledge is wanting." ***** Sarah: We sometimes discuss the value of the abhidhamma when reading suttas and the following commentary note to the Satipatthana Sutta is one example (amongst many far more detailed ones) of this, followed by a reference to ‘objects visual’ as requested;-) (p.41): ***** "Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance [adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma], result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth [adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena] and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process and so forth. Contemplation should be done by way of the division of the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); ..." ***** Sarah: Finally, Christine was asking about characteristics (sallakkhana) and Wyn about sunnata with regard to dhammas. Let me add this passage (p.42): ***** "Mental objects should be contemplated upon by way of own characteristic [sallakkhana] of impression and the like [phusanadi]; by way of general characteristic [samañña lakkhana] of impermanence and the like [aniccatadi]; by way of phenomenon-emptiness [suññta dhamma], namely, by way of the void-nature called soullessness [anattata sankhata suññata sabhavassa] to explain which clearly, the instruction of the portion dealing with the void in the Abhidhamma proceeded by means of the statement beginning with "At that time indeed there are phenomena, there are aggregates [yam vibhavetum abhidhamme tasmim kho pana samaye dhamma honti khandha hantiti adina suññatavara desana pavatta], without any mention of a soul; by way of the seven contemplations of impermanence and so forth [aniccadi satta anupassananam]; and by way of the divisions of what is present and what is absent and so forth, in the analytical portion [niddesavare agata santasantadi bhedanañca vasena]. " ***** Sarah: I'm sorry that i've quoted far more than I intended when I started. Please ignore any which don't seem relevant to your study or consideration at this time;-) I know that many of these passages and details are complex and profound as all the Teachings are. Hopefully they show the inter-relationship between the Suttas, Commentaries and Abhidhamma. Best wishes, Sarah ================================================= 10728 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 10, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta- sampajanna, vedana, dukkha, lakkhana, sunnatta p.s. Soma thera's transltion which I was using is available in a small, very inexpensive booklet with all the Com and Sub-Com notes from the B.P.S., Kandy. It is also now available on line (which is how I did all the quoting;-) at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Sarah 10729 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta- sampajanna, vedana, dukkha, lakkhana, sunnatta Hi Sarah, Mercy, you're long-winded today--great quotes though, really excellent all around. Seems ST's translation would be well worth getting ahold of. Who publishes it etc? mike 10730 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta- sampajanna, vedana, dukkha, lakkhana, sunnatta Oops--should've waited till you caught your breath. mike 10731 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta- sampajanna, vedana, dukkha, lakkhana, sunnatta Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Oops--should've waited till you caught your breath. Yes, I zapped that dreaded 'send' key before adding the other details as intended..story of my life on the net;-) That was some fast reading on your part..glad you found the quotes helpful....well-worth reading and studying carefully in full. Glad to see you're still with us - just -;-) Hope you have some useful discussions in Bkk this weekend and look forward to any further comments (even if only on my long-windedness;-) Sarah p.s We may be in Bkk w'end of Feb 16th,17th for Chinese new Year. If you're still around, that would be an extra bonus. 10732 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Did you get your identity? Hi, Ranil, Are you sure about all this? I'd trade in my personality in a heartbeat if I could--for an Ariyan one, preferably. Unfortunately, a few moments (or minutes, hours, or years) of intention don't seem to me to make much of a dent in the accumulated formations of the untold, unimaginable, more than astronomical numbers of moments of kamma that have accreted (and continue to accrete, alas) to this unfortunate khandha. Just a passing thought. Best Wishes, mike p.s. If you have any hints as to how we can control this (and what 'we' is), I'd be genuinely interested to read them. --- ranil gunawardena wrote: > > ...in a person there is a sansaric identity - an > identity where we can > change any time, any where. an identity we have > fully control of. So when we > are going to do something, we can think like; "is > this me? (meaning - have I > behaved like this in the whole of sansara) " "do I > want to do this? (meaning > - have I wanted to do this in the whole of > sansara)?" > So if it is a wrong thing which we are going to > do...then I can think like - > "NO! - This is not me... So I will not do it". > > If I am going to do a good thing... I can be happy > thinking... "Yes, This is > me... this is what I have been doing all my > sansara". > > If I feel difficult to do some good thing... I can > think... "NO!... I have > been doing such good things in Sansara - SO! I am > going to do it - no matter > what hardship comes..." > > more a person can think... "This life has added a > frame on "ME" as to - you > are this and this persons son/daughter, your family > is this - these ARE YOUR > QUALITIES" - ..... a lot of labels have been pasted > on us at birth... > > It is up to US (Ourselves not united states :) ) - > to refine this "ME" > labeled on US. > > Therefore, a person born in a poor family, with > courage and his sansaric > identity...can uplift the whole family from poverty > with courage... thinking > "I have been courageous in the whole of sansara... > this is my opportunity to > uplift my family"... So the society will not see him > as the son of those > poor parents - but the other way around -- that is > -- oohh those are his > parents... > > So! it is up to each one of us to take control of > our sansaric identity... > the most flexible identity we ever have... the > moment we think,,,,,we can > change it... > > May you find the most inner peace you are looking... > in this life itself... > > ~with much meththa > Ranil 10733 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana Sutta- sampajanna, vedana, dukkha, lakkhana, sunnatta Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > That was some fast reading on your part... I'm spending some kindly donated dough at a very pleasant internet cafe I discovered--with a broadband connection. Unwholesome bliss to be sure... > glad you > found the quotes > helpful....well-worth reading and studying carefully > in full. Actually I liked them (as usual) because they concur with my opinions. Useful though to others new to the sutta though, I hope. > p.s We may be in Bkk w'end of Feb 16th,17th for > Chinese new Year. If > you're still around, that would be an extra bonus. For me, certainly--I'll keep you posted. By the way, I've downloaded the entire ST file as an .rtf and put it on a floppy for off-line reference--small enough and easy to do for anyone w/o a steady internet connection. 10734 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 7:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Elementary questions Hi Kom Honestly I do not how it works. Maybe one of the four question not answer by Buddha. I keen to known whether there is a Theravada reference on this transference of merit esp in Sutta and Abhidhamma. We known that transference of merit is kusala. But when there is no proper understanding of transference of merit where pple wish that their deceased go to better realms, such transference of merit becomes akusala. I more incline to think that transference of merit should be done in the sense that their decease be born in the human realm to meet Buddha dhamma and not anything else so that they could be liberated in future. Such things like giving cloth/food to ghost (or making them born in the deva realm) will not be effective long run, only maybe decrease their dosa but increase their lobha. Merit must be transfer in every kusala actions (as we do not own anything)we have made bc if we think we have done something kusala for eg giving clothes to the poor, we are generating good merit, then it becomes akusala due to lobha to good merit. Kind regards Ken O --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Kenneth, > > You are absolutely right that each person has kamma as his > own: you cannot transfer merit/penalities of one's kamma to > another. Yet, one of the 10 kusala deeds is dedication of > merit. Would you care to explain how this works? Somehow, > I think if you know how this works, you may explain better > than I can. > > There was a discussion on this thread at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5313 > > Also, K. Jaran has already add some point to this thread: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10687 > > kom > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kenneth Ong [mailto:ashkenn@y...] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:33 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [dsg] Elementary questions > > > > > > Hi Kom > > > > I thought the Thervada traditions seldom talk abt > > tranference of merit > > since each one experience it own kamma by its own > > actions. How does > > transference of merit comes into play. How does > > a being in another realms > > for eg ghost experience the transferance of merit > > that we have transfer to > > them? > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > > > > > > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > Dear Christine, 10735 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi Jaran > > In pali and Thai, the word 'pabhassara' indicates that the mind is > radiant because it is free from kilesas which otherwise cause it to > 'lose its luminousity' while 'pandara' describes all cittas to > be 'pure' when compared with other dhammas (e.g. cetasikas) as it is > one (out of more than 10) description citta. Because of the latter > meaning of 'pure' (pandara), akusala-cittas are pure. Don't be > confused with 'pure' (pabhassara) bhavanga- and kusala-cittas for the > word refers to 'free from uppakilesa'. k: that still leave us the problem that all cittas are pure no matter how the word pure is explain. Could you provide references in the Abhidhamma that why akusala citta are considered pure. What are their detail explanation. > The question of whether the mind was originally 'pure' (pabhassara) is > almost like asking what the beginning of time is like? The Buddha > himself does not bother to answer when asked, for the answer will not > help his followers eradicate defilements. What's more helpful to his > disciples and lay followers is the path towards pure mind which begins > by understanding realities appearing right now. k: I am not asking whether the mind is originally 'pure' and I am not concern what is the original mind bc an original mind will imply an existence there is not changeable and this is contrary to what is taught abt anicca. What the definition that you are provided will imply a pureness in the paramatha dhamma. That to me would imply an underlying of pureness. > If I may say so, I find it unfortunate that the Buddha spent 45 years > to teach many useful things that can really be factors for panna to > develop in many people in his days, but some people in our days > (presumably with less fortunate accumulation, and full of kilesa, in > the era that is full of things that lure us away from right > understanding) are stuck with a few passages and never get pass them > to more important things ('more' important only because they help > condition right understanding) like characteristics of reality > appearing right now, or the (deeper) meaning of the word dhukkha to > name a few... k: this is always true even Buddha has predicted it, what to do, everything is impermanent :). We are lucky to be born in this period just imagine if we are a few thousand years later. And I am lucky to know you and the pple in DSG :) Cheers. Kind regards Ken O 10736 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa Hi Christine, In my own opinion if a cow killed an Arahant, she is not considered doing five heavy kamma bc the cow does not know the person is an Arahant. But the cow do have negative kamma for killing the person bc there is dosa (out of fear of harm to the cow offsprings) when the cow do it. In order to commit such heavy kamma, one must be truely aware of the person identity just like we know our parents identity from baby. Just like Devadatta and one king who patricide. Kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > Arahant. > A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - > but she killed an Arahant....... > > 1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > 2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > someone they feared or hated? > 3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > which the same namas arise? > 4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > metta, > Christine 10737 From: cldwlkrray Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 9:43am Subject: Greetings from a new member I'm Ray and I've just entered into this group. I began the Buddhist path in the early 1970's, influenced by Alan Watts, Gary Snyder and Thomas Merton. This beginning has never wavered since, and I consider the discipline of Dhamma to be central in a meaningful life. It is this to which we are directed, and this to which we must return after all discussion and conjecture is done. I look forward to joining in a learning and growing experience. Gassho; Ray 10738 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong Dear Ong, Is it possible to get your personal translation of the passage in question, in English? Perhaps in that way you could clarify your criticism with an actual example of the correct reading. Thanks, Robert Ep. ========== --- Ong Teng Kee wrote: > Dear Ken, > > It is up to you to follow suan 's view that we are having changing bhavanga > or follow the tradisional text book by buddhaghosa.Use you wisdom to think. > > > > > > > > > >From: "abhidhammika" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kenneth Ong > >Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:09:14 -0000 > > > > > > > >Dear Ken > > > >How are you? > > > >You asked: > > > >"Since bhavanga cittas changes, then why do the objects > >do not change. Any reason for that?" > > > >I am afraid the objects might also change. > > > >The objects are simply those associated with what we do. If what we > >do caused the resultant mental aggregates to change as Buddhaghosa > >stated, those new mental aggregates would have at least what we did > >as their new objects. > > > >Please keep in mind firmly that bhavanga cittas are only the products > >of our actions, and impermanent and conditioned. > > > >Nothing mysterious involved here. > > > >With best wishes, > > > >Suan > > > >http://www.bodhiology.org > > > > > > > > 10739 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa Dear Christine, I'm somewhat familiar with a story in the Udaana about an arahant (Baahiya Daaruciiriya) being killed by a cow. Unless you're referring to a different story not familiar to me, the assumption (an easy one to make) that the cow killed the arahant in order to protect her calf is incorrect. According to the commentaries, it was out of revenge from a resolve she had made in a past life. This arahant (in a past life) was one of four youths who had killed her (then a beautiful courtesan) after taking their pleasure with her (see the story for Dhp 66). The same cow also killed the three other youths (one of them was Suppabuddha the leper) for the same reason. It also says that she was actually a yakkhinii (demoness, ogress) in the form of a cow (Ud-a 95). Best wishes, Jim -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:41 PM Subject: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa >Dear All, > >I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she >was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an >Arahant. >A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had >an overwhelming need to protect her calf. >The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought >for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - > but she killed an Arahant....... > >1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree >the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? >2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort >of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with >someone they feared or hated? >3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within >which the same namas arise? >4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > >metta, >Christine 10740 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa - a bit of dhamma/Manji Manji, Thanks, you always bring me back to the present moment 'right now'. (I guess the speculations over the motives and intentions of a homicidal cow 2,500 years ago, don't serve much of a purpose really.) Your explanations and stories about kamma, concepts and realities are helpful, as are your comments on intellectual knowledge and experiential dhamma understanding. These comments are timely for me, as one who tends to get lost in literature and thinking. Sometimes it mightn't seem like it from my posts, but my understanding of concepts and realities is slowing growing. It is just that I understand concepts and realities in my mind when I am reading Dhamma, but the minute my fingers hit the keyboard I regress totally..... much metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > Christine, > > Knowing kusala, akusala, and vipaka cittas is very important, especially > when you are saying "subject to strong biological drives". Then there is > saying "overwhelming need". So maybe this is not biological drive? > > So maybe when you are knowing kusala, akusala, and vipaka cittas you can > understand them in other beings? Including a real cow, but I am thinking > that it is wise to be knowing arising and falling dhamma, right now. To > know kusala, there must be kusala citta, to know akusala there must be > akusala citta, to know vipaka there must be vipaka citta. > > Knowing intentions... And right now karma making through kusala and > akusala citta. > > "Protecting" maybe is a smushing together of ten thousand dhamma rising > and falling. Maybe being cow mind to figure out and knowing those > dhammas instead of one panatti concept dhamma of "protecting". > > Karma is working many ways... So maybe the guard dog that saved the > mother's life bit the neighbor's kid. So the neighbor's brother killed > the guard dog. So maybe not knowing all these karma ways. > > Maybe they all become brothers much later, and are here today learning > about dhamma :) > > Is this dhamma the same in cow and human? There are kusala, akusala and > vipaka cittas too... But right now maybe cow concept (pannati) arising. > > Kamma process has fruits in vipaka... This body is vipaka, a result of > kamma. Seeing "cow" concept is also this way. Beings are this way. > > Using the terms correctly would imply right now - right view. ;) > > ================= > > Something that just came to mind, maybe it is close... > I pay homage and take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. > > When the mind listens to dhamma discussion with mindfulness, taking a > dhamma as object, there immediately is chanda (zeal) for that dhamma. > Naturally then there a sort of "looking" for that object, and finding it > (sanna helping). > > So when listening to all these discussions on dhamma... Really know the > dhamma well so that chanda will take the "closest" and "correct" dhamma > as object. In this way the analytical mind makes the right connection to > the dhamma. Wisdom and path. > > Sometimes chanda rises after hearing a dhamma discussed, and chanda > rises and finding a dhamma as object... But this dhamma is different > than the dhamma discussed. > > LOL... An conventional example would be a potential customer out front > of your store talking about fish, and you walk out with a gold watch. > Then the next day they are out front talking about frogs, and you walk > out with a pig. Then maybe after many days and learning language, they > say coconut, and you walk out with a coconut. Then there is much > rejoicing and sharing merit! Hehehe. > > So maybe learning to make the abhidhamma connect to paramattha dhamma. > All this through chanda and sanna... And how to see the dhamma and know > through chanda and sanna? There must be right view... Right > concentration... Right ... Right... Hehehe... ;) > > So maybe there is an understanding why Abhidhamma is called ABHI- Dhamma. > > So when hearing dhamma... Really be knowing lobha, really be knowing > dosa, really be knowing akusala citta... Really be knowing kusala > citta... Really be knowing vipaka citta... All the dhamma are like this. > > Pannati is also a dhamma... And this concept is an obstruction to > seeing... Because it is so very much in daily life... Instead of seeing > so many different dhamma rising and falling, just seeing so many > different concepts... Which are all under the category of one dhamma... > Panatti. > > So maybe first really making a sincere effort to learn about > panatti/concept. And then... Maybe... Seeing panatti as it rises and > falls... So there is marking this "concept", and once it is marked, > mindfulness can maybe be catching it. Once it is catching it... It is > being dissolved... So there can be seeing the other dhamma. > > So maybe you can understand that there must be a sincere effort to know > the dhamma of panatti/concept. This one is so important, because the > khamma is so great. The vipaka from that khamma is so great. > > All this knowing dhamma really does bring more merit than a thousand > lifetimes. So understanding what real kusala citta is, and then there > will be knowing the answers to these questions. > > Thank you for this time, > -manji- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > > Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:42 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > > was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > > Arahant. > > A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > > an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > > The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > > for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just > > chase away) - but she killed an Arahant....... > > > > 1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > > the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > > 2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > > of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > > someone they feared or hated? > > 3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > > which the same namas arise? > > 4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > > > metta, > > Christine 10741 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa/Ken Hi Ken, thanks for the reminder about the importance of awareness and intention in relation to action and its consequences. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > In my own opinion if a cow killed an Arahant, she is not considered doing > five heavy kamma bc the cow does not know the person is an Arahant. But > the cow do have negative kamma for killing the person bc there is dosa > (out of fear of harm to the cow offsprings) when the cow do it. > > In order to commit such heavy kamma, one must be truely aware of the > person identity just like we know our parents identity from baby. Just > like Devadatta and one king who patricide. > > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > > was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > > Arahant. > > A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > > an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > > The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > > for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - > > but she killed an Arahant....... > > > > 1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > > the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > > 2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > > of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > > someone they feared or hated? > > 3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > > which the same namas arise? > > 4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > > > metta, > > Christine 10742 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa/Jim Jim, It was an assumption I made when reading the Bahiya sutta, coloured by a past experience of being attacked by my own house cow (who had known me intimately and harmoniously for 13 years, and her calf for only one day!) She didn't recognise me coming to find and attend to her, on a rainy evening under a large black umbrella. Galloping out of the undergrowth where she had hidden the calf, she would have caused serious or (mortal) wounds if I hadn't clambered over a fallen log and up a tree. So, a clear case of projection one situation onto another......... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10a.html "Not long after the Lord's departure a cow with a young calf attacked Bahiya of the Bark-cloth and killed him. When the Lord, having walked for almsfood in Savatthi, was returning from the alms round with a number of bhikkhus, on departing from the town he saw that Bahiya of the Bark-cloth had died." Thanks for telling me what is in the Commentaries - though this also serves to bring to mind again questions on rebirth, kamma, and how much, or how little, choice/control there is. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I'm somewhat familiar with a story in the Udaana about an arahant (Baahiya > Daaruciiriya) being killed by a cow. Unless you're referring to a different > story not familiar to me, the assumption (an easy one to make) that the cow > killed the arahant in order to protect her calf is incorrect. According to > the commentaries, it was out of revenge from a resolve she had made in a > past life. This arahant (in a past life) was one of four youths who had > killed her (then a beautiful courtesan) after taking their pleasure with her > (see the story for Dhp 66). The same cow also killed the three other youths > (one of them was Suppabuddha the leper) for the same reason. It also says > that she was actually a yakkhinii (demoness, ogress) in the form of a > cow (Ud-a 95). > > Best wishes, > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > Date: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:41 PM > Subject: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa > > > >Dear All, > > > >I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > >was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > >Arahant. > >A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > >an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > >The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > >for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - > > but she killed an Arahant....... > > > >1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > >the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > >2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > >of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > >someone they feared or hated? > >3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > >which the same namas arise? > >4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > > >metta, > >Christine 10743 From: manji Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 9:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa/Jim A most auspicious story :) Thanks Christine :) -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:21 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa/Jim > > > Jim, It was an assumption I made when reading the Bahiya sutta, > coloured by a past experience of being attacked by my own house cow > (who had known me intimately and harmoniously for 13 years, and her > calf for only one day!) She didn't recognise me coming to find and > attend to her, on a rainy evening under a large black umbrella. > Galloping out of the undergrowth where she had hidden the calf, she > would have caused serious or (mortal) wounds if I hadn't clambered > over a fallen log and up a tree. So, a clear case of projection one > situation onto another......... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10a.html > "Not long after the Lord's departure a cow with a young calf attacked > Bahiya of the Bark-cloth and killed him. When the Lord, having walked > for almsfood in Savatthi, was returning from the alms round with a > number of bhikkhus, on departing from the town he saw that Bahiya of > the Bark-cloth had died." > > Thanks for telling me what is in the Commentaries - though this also > serves to bring to mind again questions on rebirth, kamma, and how > much, or how little, choice/control there is. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Jim Anderson" > wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > I'm somewhat familiar with a story in the Udaana about an arahant > (Baahiya > > Daaruciiriya) being killed by a cow. Unless you're referring to a > different > > story not familiar to me, the assumption (an easy one to make) that > the cow > > killed the arahant in order to protect her calf is incorrect. > According to > > the commentaries, it was out of revenge from a resolve she had made > in a > > past life. This arahant (in a past life) was one of four youths who > had > > killed her (then a beautiful courtesan) after taking their pleasure > with her > > (see the story for Dhp 66). The same cow also killed the three > other youths > > (one of them was Suppabuddha the leper) for the same reason. It > also says > > that she was actually a yakkhinii (demoness, ogress) in the form of > a > > cow (Ud-a 95). > > > > Best wishes, > > Jim > > 10744 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing more than meets eye Dear Wynn, Folks who die and come back do not just experience 'light', they experience many associated phenomena that suggest an after-death realm. In my opinion, scientists will always attempt to find scientific explanations for everything, and those who do not believe in a spiritual realm of existence will find evidence to support their beliefs. Whether we do the same with our own beliefs is something we should be inspecting at all times. The spiritual path is treacherous in that sense, since it requires internal exploration and faith, but the scientific path, on the other hand, is severely limited where non-technological matters are concerned. Best Regards, Robert Ep. =========== --- wynn wrote: > Hi, > > What do you think? Do you think it will affect (negatively) Buddhism and > meditation? > > http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0201010170jan01.story > > Seeing more than meets eye > > Science finding hallucinations may be reflection of brain pathways > > By Ronald Kotulak > Tribune science reporter > Published January 1, 2002 > > Near-death experiences, in which people believe they see the bright light of > heaven at the end of a tunnel, may be nothing more than the brain cells that > process vision lighting up in such a way so as to reveal the circular > pattern of how they are wired together. > > New research also indicates that prehistoric cave and rock art depicting > spirals, zigzags and other geometric forms may have been done by artists > experiencing the same kind of drug-induced hallucinations that people today > have when they take LSD, mescaline, Ecstasy and other psychedelic compounds. > > A visual hallucination is defined as seeing something that's not there. They > are relatively common, and almost all cultures from prehistoric times on > have used drugs to induce hallucinations for religious, healing and artistic > purposes. > > But science now suggests that near-death images and other hallucinations > involving geometric patterns are really there-- on the inside of the brain. > > Inducing creative mood > > People like Arthur Conan Doyle, Aldous Huxley, Cary Grant, Allen Ginsberg, > Tallulah Bankhead, the Beatles, Charles Dickens, Timothy Leary and Salvador > Dali, who used hallucinogens in the hopes of inducing a creative mood, were > actually lighting up their brain wiring. > > "[It] surged upon me an uninterrupted stream of fantastic > [kaleidoscopic-like] images of extraordinary plasticity and vividness," is > how Albert Hoffman, the brilliant Swiss chemist, described his first > experience with LSD, a compound he had synthesized in 1938. > > Hallucinations can also be caused by anesthetics, fatigue, hunger, stress, > alcohol, fever, adverse drug reactions, sleep deprivation, bright flickering > lights and even pressure on the eyeballs. > > Normally, the 100 million neurons of the credit-card size visual cortex at > the back of the head convert what our eyes see into edges color, depth and > other features, and then reassemble the pieces into recognizable scenes of > the outside world. > > The process works fast. About 40 milliseconds after seeing an object, edge > detectors are activated and in another 40 milliseconds the edges become > pieced together into contours and the beginnings of surfaces. This > information goes to other parts of the brain to be compared with stored > memories. > > In far less than a second you've basically solved the problem of vision, of > remembering, recognizing and sorting out what the object is. > > In the case of a hallucination, this does not happen. Through the action of > drugs or other influences, the edge detectors become disengaged from the > rest of the network and begin firing on their own. > > The resulting hallucination reflects the pinwheel pattern of brain cells > that process lines, curves and other geometric shapes, providing a > remarkable view of the physical architecture of the visual cortex, according > to recently published findings by Jack Cowan of the University of Chicago > and Paul Bressloff of the University of Utah. > > "It's almost like seeing your own brain through a mirror," Cowan said. > "You're basically seeing patterns that your own brain is making." > > 4 basic groups > > Cowan, who is a mathematician and a neurologist, has been studying > hallucinations for 20 years. He was intrigued by the work of another U. of > C. scientist, Heinrich Kluver, who in the 1920s and 1930s classified the > drawings of people experiencing drug-induced hallucinations into four basic > categories--tunnels and funnels; spirals; lattices; and cobwebs. > > Based on new findings from optical imaging, in which scientists can actually > see which neurons light up in the visual cortex of cats and monkeys when > they view different lines and contours, Cowan, Bressloff and their > colleagues developed a mathematical model that can accurately predict the > shapes of different hallucinations. > > "We calculated that given the kinds of anatomy in the visual cortex, there > are only four kinds of patterns it will make when it goes unstable," Cowan > said. "It turns out that those four kinds of patterns we get from the math > correspond exactly to the four classes of patterns that Kluver ended up with > based on his looking at the drawings." > > Terry Sejnowski, director of the Salk Institute's Computational Neurobiology > Laboratory, said the work of Cowan and Bressloff could have wide application > in the areas of artificial intelligence and artificial vision. > > "They have created a mathematical model which replicates surprisingly well > the states that the brain gets into when it's having visual hallucinations," > he said. "These hallucinatory states are really abnormal conditions. > Sometimes you learn a lot about a complex system from the conditions which > occur when it breaks down or when it's not operating under normal > conditions." > > The mathematical study of vision is also helping to explain near-death > experiences. Essentially they are physical representations of striplike > columns of neurons in the visual cortex that form a tunnel pattern. > > "What actually happens when somebody takes a drug is the first thing they > experience is a very bright light in the center of the visual field, which > is very reminiscent of this sort of light in the tunnel when people think > they see heaven beckoning in the distance," Bressloff said. > > "What seems to happen is that this bright light spreads across the visual > field and from that state then this structure emerges which is the seed for > the hallucination pattern," he said. > > Drug-induced drawings > > Since spirals, tunnels, zigzags and other hallucinatory patterns can be > found in the art of almost all cultures and go back more than 30,000 years, > many anthropologists speculate that they were done under the influence of > hallucinogenic drugs or self-induced trances, and that these experiences > served as the origin of abstract art. > > The foremost masters of hallucinogenic experiences are shamans, ritual > practitioners in hunting-and-gathering societies who enter altered states of > consciousness to achieve a variety of ends that include healing the sick, > foretelling the future, meeting spirit-animals, changing the weather and > controlling animals by supernatural means, according to Jean Clottes, > scientific adviser to the French ministry on prehistoric art, and David > Lewis-Williams, professor of cognitive archeology at the University of > Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, South Africa. > > In their study of shamans, religious mystics and visionaries around the > world, Clottes and Lewis-Williams found that while drugs are widely used to > induce hallucinations, trances are also used to produce unusual mental > imagery. Trances can be induced through sensory deprivation, prolonged > social isolation, intense pain, vigorous dancing and insistent, rhythmic > sound, such as drumming and chanting. > > 3 stages of trances > > In their book, "The Shamans of Prehistory: Trance and Magic in the Painted > Caves," Clottes and Lewis-Williams outline three stages of trance. > > In the first stage trance, people "see" geometric forms, such as dots, > zigzags, grids, parallel lines, nested curves and meandering lines. In the > second stage, subjects try to make better sense out of the geometric imagery > by illusioning them into objects of religious or emotional significance, > such as construing a zigzag line into a snake. The third stage is reached > via a vortex or tunnel, at the end of which is a bright light. When people > emerge from the tunnel they find themselves in a bizarre world where > geometric patterns become mixed with monsters, people and settings. It is in > this stage where the drawings of humans with animal features occur. > > Clottes and Lewis-Williams concluded: "We emphasize that these three stages > are universal and wired into the human nervous system, though the meanings > given to the geometrics of Stage 1, the objects into which they are > illusioned in Stage 2, and the hallucinations of Stage 3 are all > culture-specific, at least in some measure, people hallucinate what they > expect to hallucinate." > > > Copyright © 2002, Chicago Tribune 10745 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Ha ha. I always wanted to know the answer to 'one hand clapping'. I thought it was 'wind rushing past my chest as I wrench my shoulder'. but you have given me the correct answer. thanks. Robert Ep. ============== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Robert Ep, > > I thank you, and my dog thanks you too.... actually we both believe > he's always been more skillful than I at solving Koans:-) I think it > is because dogs don't get headaches...... > > After all, he knew the answer to the question "What is the sound of > one hand clapping?" well before I did...... > "A dog wagging its tail in the breeze." > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Christine and Lucy, > > Here's one of my favorite zen koans for the occasion. Perhaps the > dog and cat > > will find it interesting. > > > > Monk: When heat and cold come, how can we avoid them? > > Master: Why don't you go to the place where there is no cold or > heat? > > Monk: Where is the place where there is no cold or heat? > > Master: When it's hot the heat kills you, when it's cold the cold > kills you. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep. > > > > ============= 10746 From: Robert Epstein Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? --- Lucy wrote: > Dear Robert > > Wonderfully appropriate! My cat didn't say "Mu" > > she's a Burmese cat, doesn't go for koans. Ah, interesting, Lucy [nice to meet you by the way], since 'Mu' was in answer to the question: 'does a dog have the Buddha-nature'. If I was a cat, I'd boycott it as well. Best, Robert Ep. ================= 10747 From: jaranoh Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What I learn in BKK about three rounds.... Hi Sarah: --- Jaran Jai-nhuknan wrote: > 4. magga (path to eradicaton of dhukkha) to develop. Development towards > > cessation of dhukkha is to develop the 8-fold path. The path begins to > develop at the moment one understand dhamma intellectually (when sa.mma > ti.tthi, panna, a long with vitaka, viriya, sati and samadhi -- > altogether only five). This is magga sacca ~naana. Again at the moment > of satipa.t.thana all the five arise to perform their function at the > level of kicca ~naana. Sarah, thanks for you sharp eyes and mind. What I wrote above was quite skimpy, at best. What I meant to say was this: 4. The magga to develop. Towards the eradication of samudhaya (the cause of dhukkha the the maggas, aka 8-fold path, must develop. The magga sacca ~naana begins with the rise of the intellectual understanding (sa.mma ditthi), and the right thought (sa.mma sa.mkappa) of dhamma, along with (sa.mma) sati since thinking of dhamma with the right understanding is kusala, viriya (sa.mma vayama) and ekkagata (sa.mma smadhi) cetasikas (for they arise with almost all cittas). As you pointed out, the magga kicca ~naana arise at the level of satipatthana where the sati, and the other four (4) factors of the magga, along with other beautiful dhammas, is aware of an actual reality. The weak satisa.mpajja~n~na (sati at the level of satipatthana + panna, the understanding of reality) initially only knows (vaguely understands) the differences of the state of being aware of dhamma, and the opposite. As, with the right conditions along the way of many vipassana ~naanas, sati and panna each gains strength, other beatiful dhammas (saddha, metta, karuna, etc) also develop to higher degrees: satipatthana 4 -> sa.mmapadhana 4 -> itdhipada 4, intriiya 5, pala 5, bhojjo.m 7 (... 29 of 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma, dhammas towards enlightment). The other 3 factors of the maggas are viratii cetasikas arise one at a time also gains strength at higher and higher level of panna. Sounds like a bunch of names and far from direct experience, and more dangerously, beautiful. People are after these dhammas with and without right understanding. But all these beautiful dhammas develop on their own from one place: right intellectual understanding conditioning satipattana. And finally at the highest level of panna, all 8 factors of the 8-fold path arise at the same time to experience nibbanna and bodhipakkhiyadhammas 37 are fulfilled. The magga kata ~naana has arisen. That is the first (of 4) three-round. Note: Often some including A. Sujin consider kata ~naana arises along at each level of vipassana ~naana because what's to be done (vipassana ~naana to develop), has been done (it has arisen). I personally think it makes sense. Sarah: Someone had said that when one understands the 1st NT, one understands the other 3 NT. KS said when one understands the 1st we can say 'gets the first glimpse' of the others. Not sure if it's relevant to the nirodha question, but look f/w to following up. Jaran: I will be think more about this, maybe Robert and Sukin in BKK can ask around. Sarah: p.s I don't remember, Oh Wandering Spirit, asking Kom for explanations of any names.....glad to have it all the same! Jaran: I may have misuderstood something here. But technically, aren't we all 'wandering spirits'? Travelling from one plane to another, one life to another, one citta to another, one aramana to another .... I think it's a great name for anyone. :-) We are so fortunate to have moderators like you and Jon. I have to run. See you later, jaran 10748 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa (Jim) Jim Great to have you back. Have missed your knowledgeable input. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Christine, > > I'm somewhat familiar with a story in the Udaana about an arahant > (Baahiya > Daaruciiriya) being killed by a cow. Unless you're referring to a > different > story not familiar to me, the assumption (an easy one to make) that the > cow > killed the arahant in order to protect her calf is incorrect. According > to > the commentaries, it was out of revenge from a resolve she had made in a > past life. This arahant (in a past life) was one of four youths who had > killed her (then a beautiful courtesan) after taking their pleasure with > her > (see the story for Dhp 66). The same cow also killed the three other > youths > (one of them was Suppabuddha the leper) for the same reason. It also > says > that she was actually a yakkhinii (demoness, ogress) in the form of a > cow (Ud-a 95). > > Best wishes, > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:41 PM > Subject: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa > > > >Dear All, > > > >I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > >was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > >Arahant. > >A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > >an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > >The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > >for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - > > but she killed an Arahant....... > > > >1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > >the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > >2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > >of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > >someone they feared or hated? > >3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > >which the same namas arise? > >4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > > >metta, > >Christine 10749 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Members- settling in ? Lucy Welcome to the list from me. I hope you find the discussion here useful, and we look forward to your participation in it. --- Lucy wrote: > Hello ! > > I'm one of those new members, though I recognise quite a few names > from the other lists I subscribe to, the 'new' is only relative. > > My sympathies to those who can't keep up - I'm one of them - so many > messages, so many topics each bringing new questions, subtopics and > infra-topics. And more come up before one has had time to formulate > the question...I keep on moving mails to a 'To Read Later' > folder---but it's bursting at the seams!!! I'll just have to > concentrate on the topics that concern me for now and start deleting > the others. Sorry, no offence intended. > > Your index of useful topics is invaluable (it's in the Files section > of the Yahoo web site for those who haven't seen it). Thanks for > taking the trouble! > > By way of introduction: I'm of the 'M' persuasion (another reason to > maintain respectful silence), took Refuge Vows with a Tibetan sect and > Precepts with a Soto Zen sect, technically I belong to both, but now > practice on my own as there is no group in this (rather backwater) > area where I'd feel comfortable practising. > > My first contact with Buddhism years ago was through the Pali > Tipitaka, for the past year I've gone back to studying it and trying > to practice more in accordance with it. My interest was re-kindled by > studying some works by Vasubandhu and realising that I still had a lot > to learn from both the Suttanta and the Abidhamma. > There are no Theravada groups nearby, Too bad about the lack of interest in your neighbourhood, but it is the same here in Hong Kong also. I think you are in the Snowdonia region? I have only been there once, but found it very beautiful. Sarah and I stayed with 2 of Sarah’s brothers and their families who were holidaying on the coast somewhere nearby. We took the nephews and nieces on a walk up to the Snowdonia peak – a beautiful, if tiring, day. > , though my house is open to > anyone who wants to pop in for a chat with tea, oat cakes and > meditation. Mmm, sounds nice. Is your invitation open to visiting dsg-ers? You may find us on your doorstep one day. I hope you won’t mind if I take the chat with tea and oatcakes but skip the meditation (No? Then maybe I’ll just have to fake it ;-)) ) > Back to read last week's mails. Yeah, me too. Always a week behind (at least). Join the club. Jon 10750 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from a new member Hi, Ray. Glad to have you with us. I see you have a long pedigree in dhamma studies. We look forward to hearing more from you. Jon --- cldwlkrray wrote: > I'm Ray and I've just entered into this group. > > I began the Buddhist path in the early 1970's, influenced by Alan > Watts, Gary Snyder and Thomas Merton. This beginning has never > wavered since, and I consider the discipline of Dhamma to be central > in a meaningful life. It is this to which we are directed, and this > to which we must return after all discussion and conjecture is done. > > I look forward to joining in a learning and growing experience. > > Gassho; > Ray 10751 From: jonoabb Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 0:50am Subject: Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical? Frank I think the answer to the question in your subject-heading is that in conventional language there is both physical and mental sloth and torpor, but in the Abhidhamma these 2 terms refer to purely mental factors (cetasikas), and they are different from the mental sloth and torpor of conventional language. So it depends on the usage of the speaker. As far as the cetasikas are concerned, you can find details in Nina's `Cetasikas' (in the chapter at http:// www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas22.html). As Nina points out— "Thina and middha are two akusala cetasikas which always arise together, they form a pair. Thina can be translated as sloth or stolidity and middha as torpor or languor. When there are sloth and torpor one has no energy for kusala. In order to have more understanding of sloth and torpor we should study their characteristics, functions, manifestations and their proximate cause, and we should know which types of citta they can accompany. .... "We may be inclined to think that sloth and torpor arise only when there is sleepiness, but when we study the types of citta which can be accompanied by sloth and torpor we will see that there can be many moments of them, also when we do not feel sleepy." I have pasted a more extended extract below, but this is still only a part of the treatment in the book. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > I read recently (mindfulness in plain english I > believe, or maybe wings to awakening?) that > sloth/torpor as one of the 5 hindrances is a purely > mental phenomena. I'm not sure I buy into that or at > least I'm misunderstanding something. > > For example, I can respond with a dull, somewhat > oblivious state of mind whether there is a > physiological basis (drowsiness, etc.) or listening to > a boring professor with a monotone voice. In BOTH > cases, that state of mind appears the same to me, but > in one of them there seems to be a physical cause > (drowsiness), whereas the other case not. So if I > understand the correct Buddhist definition of > sloth/torpor, am I to label one mental state as > sloth/torpor if it does not have drowsiness as a > cause, and the other state as drowsiness instead of > sloth/torpor, even though both states of mind appear > to be the same to me? > > -fk From 'Cetasikas' http://www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas22.html "Thina and middha are two akusala cetasikas which always arise together, they form a pair. Thina can be translated as sloth or stolidity and middha as torpor or languor. When there are sloth and torpor one has no energy for kusala. In order to have more understanding of sloth and torpor we should study their characteristics, functions, manifestations and their proximate cause, and we should know which types of citta they car accompany. "The Atthasalini (II, Book I, Part lx, Chapter II, 2) states about sloth and torpor: "Absence of striving, difficulty through inability, is the meaning." We then read the following definitions of sloth and torpor: The compound "sloth-torpor" is Sloth plus torpor; of which slot has absence of or apposition to striving as characteristic, destruction of energy as function, sinking of associated states as manifestation; torpor has unwieldiness as characteristic. closing the doors of consciousness as function, shrinking in taking the object. or drowsiness as manifestation: and both have unsystematic thought, in not arousing oneself from discontent and laziness (or indulgence), as proximate cause. "The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 1671 gives a similar definition. The Dhammasangani calls sloth (thina) indisposition and unwieldiness of mind (1156) and torpor (middha) indisposition and unwieldiness of cetasikas (1157) (1 See Vibhanga 547 and Atthasalini it, Book it, Part II, Chapter II, 377.). when there are sloth and torpor there is no wieldiness of mind which is necessary for the performing of kusala. Instead there are mental stiffness and rigidity, mental sickness and laziness. "As we have seen, the Atthasalini states that the characteristic of sloth is opposition to "striving", to energy. Also akusala citta is accompanied by energy (viriya), but this is wrong effort; it is different from right effort which accompanies kusala citta. When there are sloth and torpor there is no energy, no vigour to perform dana, to observe sila, to listen to Dhamma, to study the Dhamma r to develop calm, no energy to be mindful of the reality which appears now. This does not mean that whenever there is lack of mindfulness sloth and torpor arise. As we will see, they do not arise with all types of akusala citta. "As regards torpor, its characteristic is unwieldiness and its function is closing the doors of consciousness. It obstructs the performing of kusala, it "oppresses..., it injures by means of unwieldiness", the Atthasalini (378) explains. The manifestation of sloth is "sinking of associated states", it causes the citta and cetasikas it accompanies to decline. The manifestation of torpor is "shrinking in taking the object" or drowsiness. The Dhammasangani (1157) calls torpor (middha) "drowsiness, sleep, slumbering, somnolence". The Atthasalini (378) adds to drowsiness: "Drowsiness makes blinking of the eyelashes, etc." The arahat has eradicated sloth and torpor. He can still have bodily tiredness and he may sleep, but he has no sloth and torpor (1 Atthasalini II, Book II, Pall II, Chapter II, 378.) . "We may be inclined to think that sloth and torpor arise only when there is sleepiness, but when we study the types of citta which can be accompanied by sloth and torpor we will see that there can be many moments of them, also when we do not feel sleepy. " 10752 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 0:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Kom (and Num), > > Just want to take a moment to say how much I > appreciate this thread. This is just the way I see > it, almost all akusala almost all the time, and often > taken for 'practice', 'insight' (conceptual, of > course!), etc. Sorry I can't match your detail, this > is very valuable I think--but don't have the time to > get very specific. Yes, I also appreciated it (thanks Kom, Num, Nina). > It reminds me of Jon's 'fire extinguisher' > practice--constantly 'putting out fires' of supposed > dosa. Well, I've never used this particular analogy, but it does seem to describe quite well something I have tried to get across from time to time. > Of course this is really conditioned by the > desire to be free from domanassa etc., ... and it is fostered by an idea that kusala can be made to arise, ie. an idea of control to that extent (and so an aspect of a ‘self’ view) > and, when it > 'works', gives the impression of 'successful > practice'. ... and also reinforces the idea of control (and so of ‘self’). > Just substituting a pleasant object for an > unpleasant one usually, I think--all conditioned by > aversion (to unhappiness) and desire (for happiness) > and ignorance (of the nature of both). So many > different forms of this same unfortunate process (in > my experience), some identified with 'Dhamma' and some > not. It's relentless, conditioned no doubt by so many > countless javanas and extremely hard to > break--impossible, I think, by this kind of 'effort'. > I sometimes find this thought discouraging. Yes, this prospect often engenders this kind of reaction, and hence resistence to its acceptance. This os course is unavoidable because, as we know, there is accumulated kilesa, in this case, clinging to self and the expectations that go with this (a universal failing in everyone). All power to you, Mike, for coming to grips with it. > ... I > certainly hope that some small degree of awareness of > these moments of 'self'-deception will someday loosen > their grip--but there I go again. I guess this is where saddha comes in – one has the confidence that the loosening of the attachment to ‘self’ view will result at some time in the future, without having any expectation as to when that will happen or how it will manifest. > mike Thanks for the observations and comments Jon > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > > Here's the second posting listing some of what > > "cheating" > > dhammas remind me of. > > > > When I think of kusala that was done in the past > > with > > somanassa, I would like to think that the thinking > > itself is > > kusala, but it is really (or all mixed-up) with > > mana. > > > > When I am discussing dhammas with a person, I would > > like to > > think the motivation is kusala. This is all mixed > > up with > > mana (I am discussing dhamma), and sometimes even > > some > > irritation when the result is not what I want, or > > the other > > person does not agree. The irritation is coarse but > > is > > often unnoticed, sometimes noticable by the voice > > being too > > loud (right, Num?), or the sentence being a little > > too terse > > and inconsiderate. > > > > When I am discussing dhamma with a person, I would > > like to > > think that it is for the useful benefit of others > > and > > myself. It is really, sometimes, to get > > acknowledgement, > > even a small one. > > > > When I see something desirable, I sometimes think of > > the > > patikula characteristics of the seen thing. It is > > really > > all with mixed-up with wanting to not having such > > strong > > lobha. Although this is not quite like > > "patikkulasanna > > pathirupena vyapado vancethi (2)", but this reminds > > me so. > > > > When I see giving, or seeing good vipakas of other > > people, I > > sometimes feel jealous, but sometimes followed by > > anumoddhana / mudita. Part of what I think is > > kusala, or > > all of it, is fake, wanting to have kusala instead > > of > > akusala, or just plainly not liking the domanassa > > vedana. > > > > When I study the dhamma (or discusses) dhammas, I > > sometimes > > feel peace. I would like to think it is the result > > of > > kaya-passadhi and citta-passadhi, but often, it is > > just > > plain Dheena-mitha. samadhimukhena thinamiddhang > > vangcethi > > (3) is exactly like that. > > > > When I considers the dhamma (or analyzes the dhamma) > > excessively, especially on the thing that cannot > > (yet) be > > truly known (like analyzing things via > > conditionalities), I > > would like to think I am developing conceptual > > understandings, but is really uddhaca (and becomes > > obvious > > toward the end). This is just like > > viriyarambhamukhena > > uddhaccang vangcethi (4). > > > > vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena > > miccaditthi > > vanceti (9). I don't know if this applies to > > myself, but I > > sometimes wonder if how I understand things just > > happens to > > be how I like it. Uddacha again. > > > > I say something decent/kind to other people. I > > would like > > to think of it is metta, but it is often mixed up > > with > > wanting to be liked. samvibhaga seelata > > patirupataya > > miccajivo vangceti (13), and piyavadita patirupataya > > catukammata vangceti > > (18) remind me of this. > > > > I am not very talkative person. I would like to > > think that > > it is not being mixed up something that is not > > useful. > > Sometimes, it is just plain laziness (dina-mitha, > > again), or > > because of not having metta for others. mitabhanata > > patirupataya asammodana seelata vangceti (19) is > > exactly > > like this. > > > > attadhipateyyata patirupataya garunam anusasaniya > > appadakkhinaggahita > > vangceti (32). I am often feel grateful for a few > > people in > > this group who see dhammas in other's sayings, even > > when in > > many (or most) cases, they don't agree with one > > another. I > > am inpired by Boddhisatta for seeing dhammas in > > sayings that > > are not intended to be dhamma. It requires such a > > long > > accumulation to be reminded of the true dhammas even > > when > > one hears what is not dhamma. > > > > mettayana mukhena raago vangceti (35): raga as the > > metta. > > Try metta with a pretty girl, eh, Num? > > > > Listing some lists like this - it may be only > > because I want > > to show off that I am aware of some of these > > akusalas! > > > > kom 10753 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ultimate realities (and khandhas) Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Jon, > > > Due to pleasantly synchronistic conditions arising, your answer to > > > Herman here has > > > answered the question I just asked in my last post to you. The rupa > is > > > experienced directly by the citta and it doesn't matter whether it's > an > > > 'accurate' > > > reflection of a 'real external object' [probably because there's no > such > > > things -- > > > just momentary rupas arising]. What matters is that the rupa will > be > > > shaped by > > > the kammic predispositions of the sense-door moment, and this is all > > > that is > > > necessary to get one's *real rupa* in the moment. It is not *the* > rupa, > > > it is the > > > appropriate rupa for that citta in that moment. > > > > I couldn't have put it better myself. (You have quite a way when it > comes > > to stating these propositions/concepts -- I'm most envious of this > > ability!) > > > > Jon > > Thank you, Jon, and especially for your help in partially clearing up my > understanding of this. I'm still struggling with the relation of namas > and rupas > and have appreciated all your input. When I first heard about namas and > rupas I > thought they sounded kind of obvious. Now I say: 'ha!' to that. Well said! And it even sounds like you are not discouraged about this re-think, but taking it as a positive thing – congratulations! Jon 10754 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha (was, Concepts) (Victor) Victor --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > You asked how understanding things as they actually are is developed. > > Concentration (samadhi). Concentration (samadhi) is the condition, > the prerequisite for understanding things as they actually are > (yathabhutañanadassana). Thanks for the answer, Victor, and the sutta quotes that follow. I would be interested to know – 1. What is meant by concentration in this context (ie., what kind of concentration conditions the understading of things as they really are)? 2. In what way is concentration is a condition for understanding things as they actually are? Could you perhaps give an example, please. Thanks Jon > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Concentration > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-099.html > > What is the condition, the prerequisite for concentration (samadhi)? > Happiness (sukha). Happiness (sukha) is the condition, the > prerequisite for concentration (samadhi). > > What is the condition, the prerequisite for happiness (sukha)? > Tranquillity (passaddhi). Tranquillity (passaddhi) is the condition, > the prerequisite for happiness (sukha). > > What is the condition, the prerequisite for tranquillity (passaddhi)? > Rapture (piti). Rapture (piti) is the condition, the prerequisite > for tranquillity (passaddhi). > > What is the condition, the prerequisite for rapture (piti)? > Joy (pamojja). Joy (pamojja) is the condition, the prerequisite for > rapture (piti). > > What is the condition, the prerequisite for joy (pamojja)? > Faith (saddha). Faith (saddha) is the condition, the prerequisite > for joy (pamojja). > > What is the condition, the prerequisite for faith (saddha)? > Suffering (dukkha). Suffering (dukkha) is the condition, the > prerequisite for faith (saddha). > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.23, Upanisa Sutta, Discourse on Supporting > Conditions > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html > > (Christine, thank you for providing the reference to Transcendental > Dependent Arising, A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta, > by Bhikkhu Bodhi > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html > back in last October in dhamma-list.) > > With faith (saddha) in the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, one starts > to observe the Five Precepts (pañca-sila). > > The reward and blessing of wholesome morality is freedom from remorse. > The reward and blessing of freedom from remorse is joy. > The reward and blessing of joy is rapture. > The reward and blessing of rapture is tranquility. > The reward and blessing of tranquility is happiness. > The reward and blessing of happiness is concentration. > The reward and blessing of concentration is vision and knowledge of > things as they actually are. > > (Please refer to AN X.1) > > Conditioned phenomena is what is dependently co-arising with > condition. > Please refer to > Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of > Dependent Co-arising > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-002.html > > Please also refer to Samyutta Nikaya IV.92-93. > > I hope I have provided satisfactory answer and references to your > questions. > > Regards, > Victor > 10755 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts Victor --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > It seems that we understand that a concept is conditioned. As I > understand from Sarah's message, a concept is dependent on thinking, > has thinking as its condition, comes to be because of thinking. And > as I understand from your message, a concept is dependent on mind, > has mind as its condition, comes to be because of mind. What exactly > is condition for concept, I think, is another topic for discussion. > However, at this point, it seems that we have come to understand that > a concept is conditioned, dependently arising. I'm not sure to what extent we are actually in agreement here, Victor ;-)). A concept is not conditioned in the same sense that a reality (dhamma) is. Realities are *by their nature* conditioned, since they have the characteristic of impermanence, a characteristic that can be discerned by panna. Concepts have no 'nature' or 'characteristic' capable of being experienced by panna, and I do not think of them as 'coming to be' or 'arising' in any sense. This is my understanding from my superficial knowledge of the abhidhamma. Jon > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > > > > > You questioned that "Can we say that a concept comes to be > because of > > > thinking?" What do you think? Can we? You wrote that no > thinking > > > means no concepts. From what you wrote, it seems to me that you > mean > > > that concept is dependent on thinking. This is how I understand > the > > > word "concept" from the online dictionary in > http://www.webster.com: > > > A concept means something conceived in the mind, a thought, a > > > notion. It also means an abstract or generic idea generalized > from > > > particular instances. The synonym to the word "concept" is the > > > word "idea." I agree with you that thinking is conditioned. > > > > I had planned to give a reply to your original question (> How does > a > > concept come to be?), but had not got around to it by the time you > sent > > your follow-up. > > > > A you rightly point out, a concept is a mere creation of the mind, a > > notion. The importance of this from our point of view is that a > concept > > has no 'existence' independently of the citta that 'creates' it. > > > > The abhidhamma makes a distinction between concepts and realities > > (dhammas). Realities have an essential nature that can be > experienced by > > sati/panna, while concepts do not. > > > > Concepts are undoubtedly conditioned, in the sense that, as you > say, they > > are dependent on thinking, which is itself conditioned. But > whereas the > > thinking is a reality that has an individual nature capable of being > > experienced by panna, a concept has no such individual nature, > according > > to the abhidhamma. > > > > Jon 10756 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Rounds Num --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Thanks a lot Jon, > > I really appreciate that you mentioned A. Sujin's remark that her point > is > not formally considered by a teacher committee at the foundation. > Remind of > some books I have read, atthakathacara(the writer) at times put in > points of > controversy and his own remark and clearly cited that this is from > tipitaka, > this is what he thinks and this is what other think. > > I am looking forward to meeting and learning from her more sometime in > the > future. (sound like a lobha to me :) ) I’m sure you will find it a pleasant and most useful experience (with or without lobha!). BTW, I heard there was a chance you may be moving to Bangkok some time in the future. I look forward to meeting you there. Jon 10757 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cambodia on web Nina Many thanks for this. I have downloaded it as a Word doc, and look forward to reading it through at leisure. Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, for those who would like to read A. Sujin's Cambodian > talks, > it is on the Zolag web now. http://www.zolag.co.uk> Nina. > > 10758 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts Hello Jon, Like you and I both have said, concept is conditioned. Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:09 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts > Victor > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Jon, > > > > It seems that we understand that a concept is conditioned. As I > > understand from Sarah's message, a concept is dependent on thinking, > > has thinking as its condition, comes to be because of thinking. And > > as I understand from your message, a concept is dependent on mind, > > has mind as its condition, comes to be because of mind. What exactly > > is condition for concept, I think, is another topic for discussion. > > However, at this point, it seems that we have come to understand that > > a concept is conditioned, dependently arising. > > I'm not sure to what extent we are actually in agreement here, Victor > ;-)). > > A concept is not conditioned in the same sense that a reality (dhamma) is. > Realities are *by their nature* conditioned, since they have the > characteristic of impermanence, a characteristic that can be discerned by > panna. Concepts have no 'nature' or 'characteristic' capable of being > experienced by panna, and I do not think of them as 'coming to be' or > 'arising' in any sense. This is my understanding from my superficial > knowledge of the abhidhamma. > > Jon > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Victor > > > > > > --- yuzhonghao wrote: > Hello Sarah, 10759 From: Victor Yu Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 6:53am Subject: samma samadhi Hello Jon, > I would be interested to know - > 1. What is meant by concentration in this context (ie., what kind of > concentration conditions the understading of things as they really are)? Right concentration (samma samadhi). "And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, one-pointedness of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration." Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html > 2. In what way is concentration is a condition for understanding things > as they actually are? Could you perhaps give an example, please. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta Concentration http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html Thank you for these questions as they've motivated me to look into what the Buddha taught on concentration (samadhi) as recorded in the discourse. I hope I have provided pertinent references to your questions. Regards, Victor 10760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] the date op 11-01-2002 05:13 schreef srnsk@a... op srnsk@a...: > Dear Nina, > > Let me express my appreciation in your another good piece of work, (hope for > more :)) I printed it out from Zolag and made it into a book. Yes, I put > your name and the date of the book on the cover. I have one question, when > the trip was taken place? Dear Num, I am glad you reminded me, the date of the trip: December 2000. I put it in now in the first sentence of the preface, and sent it to Alan. Anumodana to you because of the way you explained anumodana dana, and also "extending merit". I liked so much your personal examples. So you gave us another opportunity to also anumodana to your family who offered dana to the monks. People may not be inclined to speak about the kusala they performed, but they help others in speaking about it. Moreover, it is not showing off, because it is the kusala citta, not a person who acts. That is why I liked reading the letters from Yulia and others to Purnomo. Best wishes from Nina. 10761 From: Lucy Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical? Dear Jon Thanks for the explanation and reference. I had a much broader 'working definition' of thina that went on to include things like watching television or reading fiction - actually, it went on to include anything that wasn't practising in one way or another. It didn't necessarily led to middha. My 'working definitions' are kind of home-made. So don't be alarmed if I come up with idiotic comments, just correct me and point me to the right page if you have the time. Thanks. Anyway, I made thina my 'cetasika of the week' and have been reading more now, but it is still not entirely clear. Does thina always arise with middha? And is middha always 'torpor' as in sleepiness, drowsiness, fogginess, etc.? Could middha extend to include any mental activity that is not clear of / mindful of the Dhamma? Or is that going too far? What is the cetasika involved in time wasting? Like watching TV when one is free and the mind is in good condition to engage in practice? It is a kind of sloth, but often it is prompted in the sense that one makes a deliberate choice. (sorry about the non-technical vocabulary and stupid questions) Lucy ======================================== From: "jonoabb" As far as the cetasikas are concerned, you can find details in Nina's `Cetasikas' (in the chapter at http:// www.dhammastudy.com/cetasikas22.html). "Thina and middha are two akusala cetasikas which always arise together, they form a pair. Thina can be translated as sloth or stolidity and middha as torpor or languor. When there are sloth and torpor one has no energy for kusala. In order to have more understanding of sloth and torpor we should study their characteristics, functions, manifestations and their proximate cause, and we should know which types of citta they can accompany. .... "We may be inclined to think that sloth and torpor arise only when there is sleepiness, but when we study the types of citta which can be accompanied by sloth and torpor we will see that there can be many moments of them, also when we do not feel sleepy." 10762 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ultimate realities (and khandhas) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Well said! And it even sounds like you are not discouraged about this > re-think, but taking it as a positive thing – congratulations! > > Jon thanks, Jon. Robert 10763 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One Further Thought on One-Pointedness Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and anyone else interested) - > > One more thought: Perhaps one-pointedness is actually the > tendency or > disposition or sankhara for an object to continue in consciousness - > kind of > a "mental momentum" cetasika. If that is so, then there *could* be > degrees of > one-pointedness. The greater the degree of one-pointedness, the less > arammana > changing there would be, the greater the "mental stability". The less > the > degree of one-pointedness, the less stable would "concentration" be and > the > greater the instability and "distraction". Moreover, it would make sense > for > vitakka and vicara to foster ekagatta. This is a notion which makes > sense to > me. Does it have any basis in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? > > With metta, > Howard I have no answers, but one or two observations. There are different kinds of 'one-pointedness', some found in the teachings, some merely conventional usage (ie. the usual situation). For example-- a/. The one-pointedness of a citta on its object (the function ascribed to ekagatta cetasika) b/. The one-pointedness that is the focussing on the task at hand (one-pointedness of purpose) c/. The one-pointedness that is the taking of the same object by citta for successive moments. Samatha involves the third kind of one-pointedness, but of course only where the citta is kusala; for this kind of one-pointedness (like the other 2) may be either kusala or akusala. Concentration in and of itself is not essentially kusala (or akusala). This distinguishes concentration from, say, awareness or understanding, which are intrinsically wholesome and therefore of a class that is always to be developed for their own sake. The numerous references in the teachings to concentration must be read in this light. In samatha, it is the development of kusala of the appropriate kind, accompanied by the kusala factors of panna and passaddhi (tranquillity), that leads to the citta becoming more concentrated on a single object (the meditation subject). That is to say, it is not by developing concentration on a single object that samatha is developed. Rather it is the other way around. In my view, to think of samatha practice as concentration on a single object with a consequent reduction in the number of different objects of citta is to somewhat miss the point. Samatha is first and foremost about the development of kusala, naturally and in daily life. It is only if an when a particular kind of kusala has been developed to a certain degree that it can bring increasing one-pointedness on the meditation subject, and the tranquillity or calm associated with that and the absence of akusala. That's my understanding, anyway! I don't know if this helps on any of the points in this or your 2 earlier posts. Jon 10764 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) Rob Ep, and also Erik --- Robert Epstein wrote: > The effort to correct wrong concepts is like yelling at the > wind. It is > the direct discernment or lack thereof of what is actual upon which > 'useful' or > 'frivolous' concepts can be formed. Yes. The futility of pursuing concepts, and the absolute necessity of coming to understand more about realties, is one of those things that seems obvious once you’ve got it, but somehow is so difficult to ‘get’ in the first place. And when we do get it, we are likely to realise that our entire practice to date has been one form or another of trying to correct wrong concepts. Erik, if I may bring in a recent thead of yours here, I would put the ‘deconstructing’ of self-view in the category of trying to correct wrong concepts. From your description, this deconstructing involves ‘observing’ or ‘analysing’ thoughts or events with a view to seeing their impermanence or not-self. This is something altogether different from directly experiencing realities in order to understand them as they are ('direct knowledge'). > If we know that a concept is a > concept but > that it is referring to a reality, that may be a useful way of > organizing our > activity. But if the concept is floating around in the conceptual > world, with no > reference to what is real or unreal, then we are really lost. The main thing to know about concepts how they differ from realties. > Thanks for the good point, which is another pointer in the right > direction: > towards direct knowledge of rupas and namas. Yes, the namas and rupas that appear at the present moment (since they of coursed are the only ones that can be directly known). It always comes back to this, much as it may seem an unlikely starting point. The namas and rupas thing seems so simplistic when we first hear it, but so elusive once we start to realise how important it is. Jon > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob Ep > > Wrong conceptual understanding is based on wrong understanding of > > realities (dhammas); it is the latter that is the cause of the former > and > > not the other way around. > > > > To give an example from our discussion, our conceptual idea of > 'hardness' > > is bound to be inaccurate as long as direct understanding of the > reality > > that is hardness has not been fully developed. No amount of > 'correcting' > > our conceptual misunderstanding can bring any meaningful progress > along > > the path. > > > > Another example. An idea of 'self' arises because realities have not > been > > directly seen with panna as having the characteristic of 'not-self'. > Even > > though we may have accepted as correct at an intellectual level the > > teaching on no self, the concept of self is still there and will > arise, > > because of the lack of understanding of realities. > > > > I hope this is clearer. > > > > Jon 10765 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 0:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Memory, Objects, and Continuity Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > It seems to me, on the basis of the textual references, > that the function > > of sanna is to mark the object of the citta at, say, the > moment of > > experiencing an object through one of the sense doors and > then in > > subsequent mind moments to play a part in enabling us to > relate that > > object to objects previously experienced. > > > > Any thoughts/comments on this hypothesis? > > > > Jon > > This hypothesis sounds pretty good to me. We have been > discussing the > function of sanna at length and I think we agree that sanna > marks the > object. However, there doesn't seem to be an agreement of > how sanna plays a > part in recollecting the object, except that we think it > must play a part > somehow. (Besides, the recollection indicates that there > was a > remembrance). > > I think the reason why it is so hard to think about how > sanna recollects the > object is that, it is equally valid to say that, we don't > remember something > because the vitakka is not fixed on the object that we want > to remember, > even though there must be sanna arising at all time. I think I agree. Clearly sanna arises and marks the object even at moments when we can't remember or recognise something, or mis-remember or -recognise it. So we cannot equate sanna with conventional memory/remembering. I agree that vitakka probably has quite a role to play in this area, but unless we an find more textual references I'm afraid it's going to remain something of a mystery. > In general, sometimes it is hard to pin down the specific > functions of the > different realities in a particular situation. For example, > when we say > there is khanti now, is it a function of adosa only? Since > khanti means > "endurance" to both something pleasant and unpleasant, then > it must mean at > least both adosa and alobha. Alternatively, I suppose it could be one or the other, depending on the nature of the object being endured. But yes, I take your point about the difficulty of really knowing about these things. > Nama must work in concerts to > achieve a > particular function, and to say exactly how they interact > with one another > in the most exact detail may be in the realm of the Buddha > and the Great > Disciples only. Yup! Jon 10766 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 0:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Nina, > > There was another controversy that was discussed in India: > how much detail does one study conceptually? On one side > (A), it is said that one only needs to understand the basic > concepts, and then after that, satipatthana should be the > main way to develop panna. On the other side (B), it is > necessary to know lots and lots of details. I understand > (C) from A. Sujin and A. Supee(misunderstanding?) that one > should study what one can understand, especially those that > apply in daily life. I'm glad you brought this up. I personally did not hear position A expressed in India. I did of course hear position B expressed (with the added detail that the more abhidhamma one knew, the better the conditions for awareness and understanding to arise). I noticed that if someone suggested position B was not correct, those who supported position B tended to 'hear' position A being asserted (which of course was not the case at all). It's ironic. On this list I am probably seen as a 'position B' person, while in India the position B camp saw me as a position A person!! Jon > I apply the above situations to the current particular > situations as followed, which probably guarantee more > controversies: > (A): I already understand what Satipatthana is, why bother > with hearing about vancaka dhammas, bhawangas, and > conditionalities at all? I can learn the subtleties of the > different dhammas through direct perception. > (B): I need to know all the different aspects of vancaka > dhammas, bhawangas, and conditionalities. I should be able > to explain all dhammas in term of conditionalities, as that > would give me all the different details about the dhammas. > (C): One needs to listen a lot, and consider a lot, but one > needs to know the limit of one's understanding. Remembering > all the details about vancaka dhammas are not going to help > in daily life, as not all the dhammas mentioned in the > teaching would appear. Remembering all the details about > conditionalities are not going to help, as the details of > those don't appear to one anyway. It is important to learn > enough to answer one's own (important) questions - to > eliminate vicikiccha. For panna to know finer and more > subtles dhammas (and panna must know, otherwise, how could > it be [roo jang, roo tua] (penetration?, knowing > all-around), then the conceptual understanding, through > listening and consideration, must be equivallently > well-refined. > > kom 10767 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Kom And Nina On Kamma Modifying Bhavanga Cittam Dear Suan, I have tried to follow your logic and translation (below) as best I can and I think I now understand why you translated the phrases being discussed as you did. I have very limited Pali knowledge, but question whether: 1) When Nanamoli translates “Janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi” as “What is called productive is both profitable and unprofitable”, can “janakam” or janaka kamma be treated as a non-count noun, the productive kamma? In English if we say ‘the study of realities is (that of) namas and rupas’.or ‘productive kamma is good and bad’. There is no suggestion in these phrases that namas and rupas or good and bad occur together. I realize that all nouns decline in Pali, but wonder if, for example, when kamma refers to actions, deeds in general, whether the singular might be used. Perhaps there are other similar examples. 2) When there is a question of translation using ‘and’ or ‘or’ as in this case, rather than using a strictly grammatically logical choice, would it not be more appropriate to consider the meaning with insight gained from other relevant passages? In other words, the understanding gained from other parts of the Tipitaka becomes essential I would think. Suan, you wrote: “I hope the above discussion serves, at least, as a form of intellectual entertainment.”, and it has been entertaining for me to follow and learn a little Pali in the process. Many thanks indeed. Sarah =================================================== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > Please just look at the sentence "janakam naama kusalampi hoti > akusalampi." > > As janakam, by its very name, refers to an efficacious action that > produce results. And we know that different actions lead to different > results. That is to say, one type of janakam can be different from > another type of janakam. In the statement of Buddhaghosa, these > differences are described in terms of kusalam and akusalam. > > To express such differential ideas in English, I prefer the > syntax "either ... or" to that of "both .. and" because > the "either .. or" syntax reflects more faithfully the differential > ideas the original statement intended to convey. Even if > translating "api .. api" as "both .. and" is correct grammatically, > it does not convey differential ideas unambiguously. > > For example, > > 1. To gamble is both to lose and to win. > 2. To gamble is either to lose or to win. > > Janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. > > 1. Efficacious action is both good and bad. > 2. Efficacious action is either good or bad. > > Please kindly observe that the subject "Janakam" is in the singular > number. > > Now please compare the translations 1 and 2. I believe that only the > translation (2) conveys the intended meaning of the Pali sentence. > > To make the translation (1) correct, we need to change the subject > and verb into the plural number like this. > > Janakaani kusalampi honti akusalampi. > > 1. Efficacious actions are both good and bad. > > The new Pali sentence means that efficacious actions include both > good ones and bad ones. > > Similarly, we can explain the Pali sentence: > > Tam patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > 1. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > aggegates to arise both at the moment of linking consciousness > (conception) both during the current lifetime." > > 2. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > aggegates to arise either at the moment of linking consciousness > (conception) or during the current lifetime." > > Please also observe that the subject "Tam" is in the singular number. > > According to the translation (1), Buddhaghosa seemed to convey the > idea of the same janaka kamma producing results, once at the moment > of linking consciousness (conception) and then, again during the > current lifetime. > > But, I do not think that Buddhaghosa intended to covey the meaning of > the translation (1). > > Therefore, only the translation (2) makes sense. > > And, to make the translation (1) correct, we need to change its > subject and verb into the plural number like this. > > Taani patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janenti. > > I hope the above discussion serves, at least, as a form of > intellectual entertainment. ..................................................................................... 10768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Further Thought on One-Pointedness PS Hope you had a pleasant trip to Dallas, and that you have an enjoyable stay there. We all hope that you find some time for posting on the internet during your stay! Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and anyone else interested) - > > One more thought: Perhaps one-pointedness is actually the > tendency or > disposition or sankhara for an object to continue in consciousness - > kind of > a "mental momentum" cetasika. If that is so, then there *could* be > degrees of > one-pointedness. The greater the degree of one-pointedness, the less > arammana > changing there would be, the greater the "mental stability". The less > the > degree of one-pointedness, the less stable would "concentration" be and > the > greater the instability and "distraction". Moreover, it would make sense > for > vitakka and vicara to foster ekagatta. This is a notion which makes > sense to > me. Does it have any basis in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? > > With metta, > Howard > 10769 From: rikpa21 Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Two Truths (for Howard) --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob Ep, and also Erik > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > The effort to correct wrong concepts is like yelling at the > > wind. This form of "yelling at the wind" happens to be one of the ten "meritorious deeds" (specifically #10)" 1. Giving (dana) 2. Morality (sila) 3. Mental culture (bhavana) 4. Reverence or respect (apacayana) 5. Service in helping others (veyyavacca) 6. Sharing merits with others (pattidana) 7. Rejoicing in the merits of others (pattanumodana) 8. Preaching and teaching the Dhamma (dhamma desana) 9. Listening to the Dhamma (dhamma savanna) 10. Straightening one's views (ditthijju-kamma) #9 and #10 work together especuially well. And we can't forget "dhamma vicaya" (investigation into dhammas) as a factor enlightenment in this game, either. I find the following discussion on dhamma vicaya to be very illustrative: http://www.dharma.org/insight/2000b/santikaro.htm >> It is > > the direct discernment or lack thereof of what is actual upon which > > 'useful' or > > 'frivolous' concepts can be formed. > Yes. I disagree (but what else would you expect, counsel? :) > The futility of pursuing concepts, and the absolute necessity of > coming to understand more about realties, is one of those things that > seems obvious once you've got it, but somehow is so difficult to `get' in > the first place. And how does one come to rightly understand realities? There are many ways (there sixteeen variations on this in the Sammadhitthi Sutta alone!). And when we do get it, we are likely to realise that our > entire practice to date has been one form or another of trying to correct > wrong concepts. I'm not sure what you mean here, Jon. Furthermore, what you say above seems to directly contradict many things I've heard you say before--regarding pariyatti and the need to straighten views at the conceptual level, as a requisite condition for Right Understanding such that we know the appropriate objects of discernment (which is something I agree with, by the way). How do you regard, for example, Buddhagosa's enture chapter devoted to "Purification by Overcoming Doubt" Vis.XIX)? This ibncludes learning to rightly discern (conceoptually) cause and condition, that nothing arises causelessly, that all things aruise in dependence on conditions, that there is kamma and its result, that there is no ultimate "doer" apart from kamma and its result? But we're not finished yet! Now we have to deal with "Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What Is and Is Not the Path"! To save me from typing, please refer to Vis, XX in its entirety, which lists many, many CONCEPTUAL modes of MUNDANE comprehension to be developed. Furthermore, how do reconcile what you've said above with the Buddha taught in the Suttas in so many places, deconstructing form, feeling, perception, fabrication, and conscisousness as not-self, through bvarious questions and answers and similes? > Erik, if I may bring in a recent thead of yours here, I would put the > `deconstructing' of self-view in the category of trying to correct wrong > concepts. Exactly, such as the concept that "I have a self," or that kamma yields no fruit, or that there is an "I" behind things. If this were not the case, then why did the Buddha, in so many suttas, perform exactly these deconstructions (e.g. the "Khandha Sutta"): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html > From your description, this deconstructing involves `observing' > or `analysing' thoughts or events with a view to seeing their impermanence > or not-self. Let me pose a question: is it possible to rightly discern formations unless we know what we're looking for? Or are you suggesting that simply observing, without any instructions on what constitute appropriate objects of investigation in terms of training, is a conducive to release? > This is something altogether different from directly > experiencing realities in order to understand them as they are ('direct > knowledge'). If you can find any post where I have suggested anything other than supramundane Right View is established in a way OTHER than direct knowledge freed from all fabrications and elaboration, please point it out to me. Other than that, I think it is important to make a very clear distinction here--one you've yourself made often, if my recollection serves: that we have to study at the conceptual (lokiya) level FIRST, as a means to accumulating sufficient understanding to directly discern (via lokuttara panna) that all formations are, indeed, void, impermanent, and painful, via the faculty of the direct insight into realties as they are. Only once the coarsest levels of wrong view (not to mention the karmic obstructions arising from accumulated unwholesome tendencies have been lessened sufficiently) is there the condition for sufficient panna that when one enters into deep meditation, one comes to see directly how all things lack self, are impermanent, and painful. All my best to you and Sarah, and look forward to futher discussions! :) 10770 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi Ken O, You’ve asked this question before and I don’t expect my answer here to help any more than others, but let me try in brief;-) --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Jaran > > > > > In pali and Thai, the word 'pabhassara' indicates that the mind is > > radiant because it is free from kilesas which otherwise cause it to > > 'lose its luminousity' while 'pandara' describes all cittas to > > be 'pure' when compared with other dhammas (e.g. cetasikas) as it is > > one (out of more than 10) description citta. Because of the latter > > meaning of 'pure' (pandara), akusala-cittas are pure. Don't be > > confused with 'pure' (pabhassara) bhavanga- and kusala-cittas for the > > word refers to 'free from uppakilesa'. > > k: that still leave us the problem that all cittas are pure no matter > how > the word pure is explain. Could you provide references in the > Abhidhamma > that why akusala citta are considered pure. What are their detail > explanation. I think that the reason there are so many definitions and terms for citta may be to help us understand its nature more precisely. In one sense, we can therefore say citta is pure or clear (pandara) to stress that it merely cognizes or experiences its object. However citta never arises on its own, but is always accompanied by at least 7 mental factors (cetasikas) and these cetasikas ‘colour’ its nature, so to speak. Even when it is an akusala citta, the citta itself merely experiences the object but the accompanying cetasikas are attached, averse, ignorant of and so with regard to the object and condition the citta and vice versa. (As Jaran stressed, only pandara and never pabhassara can refer to akusala cittas) As there is never citta without cetasikas (not even for the Buddha;-), it is never a question of just removing layers of defilements and finding pure states, but is always a question of developing skilful states which can eventually eradicate the kilesas (defilements). I don’t know if this helps. You ask for an Abhidhamma reference, so let me add this favourite one of mine from the Atthasalani (PTS trans p.90) and hope it’s relevant to your question: ***** “.But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena. But it may be said that consciousness has arisen in the sense of forerunner. For in worldly phenomena consciousness is the chief, consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. In transcendental phenomena, however, understanding is the chief, understanding is the principal, understanding is the forerunner.” ***** Of course the same considerations could be given to unskilful states. Not sure if this helps any further after all Jaran’s really detailed comments and translations, but it’s helpful for me to consider further;-) Sarah p.s. you have another chance at CNU to join us in Bkk. ===================================================== 10771 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from a new member Dear Ray, Welcome from me too;-) Thanks for introducing yourself and I fully agree with your sentiments...we forget so very often in a day, but hopefully this list is a condition to 'remember' and learn just a little bit more. Really look forward to hearing more from you. Btw, where do you live? (an optional answer of course;-) Sarah --- cldwlkrray wrote: > I'm Ray and I've just entered into this group. > > I began the Buddhist path in the early 1970's, influenced by Alan > Watts, Gary Snyder and Thomas Merton. This beginning has never > wavered since, and I consider the discipline of Dhamma to be central > in a meaningful life. It is this to which we are directed, and this > to which we must return after all discussion and conjecture is done. > > I look forward to joining in a learning and growing experience. > > Gassho; > Ray > 10772 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 5:05am Subject: 'Where in the world.. ?' Dear Yulia, Asking Ray where he lives reminded me that I didn't thank you for your info here;-) --- yklimov wrote: > Dear Sarah > > Thank you for your nice letter. I usally don't talk here much, > because basically I have nothing to say :). I am a beginner to > Buddhism, this group was recommended by Robert to me, I am very > grateful to him for that. We're grateful to have you here too and whenever you do say a few words they're always very helpful, Yulia. It's good to hear different voices - beginner as well as Pali scholarly ones! > I am native Russian, immigrated to USA in 1995, still trying > to "fit". I live in South Florida, in Hollywood. Ok, this is interesting, thanks and hope you enjoy living in Florida. The sunny climate must be a nice change (See, Christine, I always think of the weather;-) At least you 'fit' with us. > I enjoy very much this group, even sometimes I don't really > understand what people are telling here. > Thank you again for giving some attention to me :) I've been here since the beginning, but sometimes there are points and terms I don't understand either....Sometimes I check them and sometimes I just let them go;-) Victor, thanks for also locating yourself. So you're a neighbour of Rob Ep's in Washington D.C? Maybe one day you'll meet for a live discussion on metta and anatta;-) Best wishes, Sarah p.s To Nina and others, I heard off-list from Gayan the other day. He had to return to Boston at short notice and his work was 'really intense' and 'time-consuming' from the start. Until he has a little more free time to look at the Pali , he asks me to send his regards 'to all our Kalyana Mittas'. ================================================ 10773 From: Sarah Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 5:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa - a bit of dhamma Dear Manji, You made a lot of very helpfull points in your post to Christine and in particular, the emphasis you give on knowing realities and understanding kamma and vipaka. Like Ken O, you seem to have a natural affinity for the Abhidhamma and all its complexities. I just wish to turn to the end of your message to question one point if I may: --- manji wrote: > >..... So maybe there is an understanding why Abhidhamma is called ABHI-Dhamma. > So when hearing dhamma... Really be knowing lobha, really be knowing > dosa, really be knowing akusala citta... Really be knowing kusala > citta... Really be knowing vipaka citta... All the dhamma are like this. Agreed so far;-) > Pannati is also a dhamma... And this concept is an obstruction to > seeing... Because it is so very much in daily life... Instead of seeing > so many different dhamma rising and falling, just seeing so many > different concepts... Which are all under the category of one dhamma... > Panatti. > > So maybe first really making a sincere effort to learn about > panatti/concept. And then... Maybe... Seeing panatti as it rises and > falls... So there is marking this "concept", and once it is marked, > mindfulness can maybe be catching it. Once it is catching it... It is > being dissolved... So there can be seeing the other dhamma. > > So maybe you can understand that there must be a sincere effort to know > the dhamma of panatti/concept. This one is so important, because the > khamma is so great. The vipaka from that khamma is so great. I fully agree with you that it is essential to understand the difference between concepts and realities and this topic has been discussed here a lot. Usually, when we talk about dhammas, and especially with reference to mindfulness, we are referring to realities (paramattha dhammas) only. All that can ever be known or seen to rise and fall or be the object of mindfulness are these same namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena) for the reason that pannatti (concepts) are objects of thinking and imagination only. They don’t actually exist. The thinking can be known and being a conditioned reality, it arises and passes away. The pannatti are merely the imaginings experienced by the thinking. So it’s always the realities which are known directly. > All this knowing dhamma really does bring more merit than a thousand > lifetimes. So understanding what real kusala citta is, and then there > will be knowing the answers to these questions. I agree with all your other excellent points. Thanks for your recent helpful contributions here. Let me know if my comments aren't clear or if you understand differently;-) Sarah ====================================================== 10774 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 7:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Sarah, Kom And Nina On Kamma Modifying Dear Sarah How are you? Thank you for your interest in grammartical / logical issues in translating Pali lines. You asked: "Can "janakam" or janaka kamma be treated as a non-count noun, the productive kamma?" Suan: Unlike in English, every noun in Pali can be countable noun. You also wondered: "wonder if, for example, when kamma refers to actions, deeds in general, whether the singular might be used." Suan: Yes. You also asked: "When there is a question of translation using `and' or `or' as in this case, rather than using a strictly grammatically logical choice, would it not be more appropriate to consider the meaning with insight gained from other relevant passages? In other words, the understanding gained from other parts of the Tipitaka becomes essential I would think." Suan: I agree. In fact, since the time Kom produced Bhikkhu Nyanamoli's translation, I checked other parts of Tipitaka, and traditional Pali grammar texts. I won't go into details here, but it is far safer to translate "api... api" as "either ... or" or merely "and" in this particular context. Nyanamoli's translation of "api ... api" as "both ..and" is grammatically correct in some cases. But, it is not very safe in this particular context. He could have used the conjunctions "and", and "or" singly. That is to say, he could have converted double "api" into double "ca", or "vaa". That conversion is exactly done by Visuddhimagga Mahaa Tiikaa where Aacariya Dhammapaala has changed "api" into "ca". Once this conversion has been done, it becomes very easy to translate the line as I did. Or in the sense of safer single "and" or single "or". I hope I am not boring you to death! In the case of Abhidhammatthavibhaavanii Tiikaa, Aacariya Sumangalasaami even changed the phrase "patisandhiyampi pavattepi" into a compound "patisandhipavattiisu" which can no longer mean "both .. and" as Bhikkhu Nyanamoli translated. We can easily translate "patisandhipavattiisu" as "at the moment of linking consciousness and during the current lifetime", or as "at the moment of linking consciousness or during the current lifetime." However,I prefer to translate the phrase "patisandhiyampi pavattepi" as "at the moment of linking consciousness or during the current lifetime", which is very safe and reflects Buddhaghosa's intention. Bluntly speaking, my recent reading of Tipitaka tells me that the syntax "both .. and" in this context is not safe and is very misleading. With best wishes Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Suan, > > I have tried to follow your logic and translation (below) as best I can > and I think I now understand why you translated the phrases being > discussed as you did. > > I have very limited Pali knowledge, but question whether: > > 1) When Nanamoli translates "Janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi" as > "What is called productive is both profitable and unprofitable", can > "janakam" or janaka kamma be treated as a non-count noun, the productive > kamma? > > In English if we say `the study of realities is (that of) namas and > rupas'.or `productive kamma is good and bad'. There is no suggestion in > these phrases that namas and rupas or good and bad occur together. I > realize that all nouns decline in Pali, but wonder if, for example, when > kamma refers to actions, deeds in general, whether the singular might be > used. Perhaps there are other similar examples. > > 2) When there is a question of translation using `and' or `or' as in this > case, rather than using a strictly grammatically logical choice, would it > not be more appropriate to consider the meaning with insight gained from > other relevant passages? In other words, the understanding gained from > other parts of the Tipitaka becomes essential I would think. > > Suan, you wrote: "I hope the above discussion serves, at least, as a form > of > intellectual entertainment.", and it has been entertaining for me to > follow and learn a little Pali in the process. Many thanks indeed. > > Sarah > =================================================== > --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > Please just look at the sentence "janakam naama kusalampi hoti > > akusalampi." > > > > As janakam, by its very name, refers to an efficacious action that > > produce results. And we know that different actions lead to different > > results. That is to say, one type of janakam can be different from > > another type of janakam. In the statement of Buddhaghosa, these > > differences are described in terms of kusalam and akusalam. > > > > To express such differential ideas in English, I prefer the > > syntax "either ... or" to that of "both .. and" because > > the "either .. or" syntax reflects more faithfully the differential > > ideas the original statement intended to convey. Even if > > translating "api .. api" as "both .. and" is correct grammatically, > > it does not convey differential ideas unambiguously. > > > > For example, > > > > 1. To gamble is both to lose and to win. > > 2. To gamble is either to lose or to win. > > > > Janakam naama kusalampi hoti akusalampi. > > > > 1. Efficacious action is both good and bad. > > 2. Efficacious action is either good or bad. > > > > Please kindly observe that the subject "Janakam" is in the singular > > number. > > > > Now please compare the translations 1 and 2. I believe that only the > > translation (2) conveys the intended meaning of the Pali sentence. > > > > To make the translation (1) correct, we need to change the subject > > and verb into the plural number like this. > > > > Janakaani kusalampi honti akusalampi. > > > > 1. Efficacious actions are both good and bad. > > > > The new Pali sentence means that efficacious actions include both > > good ones and bad ones. > > > > Similarly, we can explain the Pali sentence: > > > > Tam patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > > > 1. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > aggegates to arise both at the moment of linking consciousness > > (conception) both during the current lifetime." > > > > 2. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > aggegates to arise either at the moment of linking consciousness > > (conception) or during the current lifetime." > > > > Please also observe that the subject "Tam" is in the singular number. > > > > According to the translation (1), Buddhaghosa seemed to convey the > > idea of the same janaka kamma producing results, once at the moment > > of linking consciousness (conception) and then, again during the > > current lifetime. > > > > But, I do not think that Buddhaghosa intended to covey the meaning of > > the translation (1). > > > > Therefore, only the translation (2) makes sense. > > > > And, to make the translation (1) correct, we need to change its > > subject and verb into the plural number like this. > > > > Taani patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janenti. > > > > I hope the above discussion serves, at least, as a form of > > intellectual entertainment. > > > .................................................................... ................. > > > 10775 From: Anders Honore Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important 06-01-02 15:06:02, "rikpa21" skrev: >--- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: >> Erik, as I've mentioned, I've appreciated the pleasant tone >>in your recent messages and well-considered points and quotes. > >Enjoy it while it lasts, because I can assure you it won't (and I >mean that in the nicest possible way)! :) Haha, that's an open invitation for me to butt and provoke... >It sounds as though there's some confusion in terminology between >mundane vs. supramundae right view here. Mundane Right View includes >understanding kamma and its result, for example, among other >variations. Only supramundane Right View discerns things as they >truly are: devoid of entity, impermanent, and painful. I'd rather investigate the fundamental differences in the *way* of discernment betweent the two, rather than their objects, which to me, seem to be pretty much the same (surely, one can conceptually see things as anatta, just as it is possible to see with Panna the fruits of Kamma). To me, the fundamental difference between the two is that mundane/conceptual understanding discerns *in dependence* on another thought construct. Thus it highly relative, and can be easily shaken, if simply the other thought construct upon which it stands in depenednece is shaken. For example, the conceptual notion that things are anatta, usually stand in dependence on faith in the Buddha's teachings. But it has nothing do with reality. It merely an extrapolated concept, founded in another concept, which in turn is rooted in ignorance. And because the very foundation upon which this concept rests is fundamentally deluded, it can hardly be said to be anccurate measurement for what is true or not. What characterises Supramundane Right View, is non-dependence, so to speak, in the sense that it manifests in the absence of conceptual understanding. But the borders are more complex that as such. It is highly possible to conceptualise an insight experience or understanding, where we turn the understanding itself into and object, and thus deviate from the direct seeing. Or maybe pure direct seeing is simply seeing the concepts as they arise for what they are, rather than the total absence of them (which, I'd reckon, only goes for Arahants)..... >I think we should be very concerned with supramundane panna! Certainly! In my experience, the belief that enlightenment (and panna) is an actual possibility, has everything to do with the actual attainment of that. If one doesn't believe that to be an actual possibility for oneself, either because of lack of self- belief or simply disbelief in the possibility of enlightenment, then what isn't really practising for it, and chances are that it won't happen either. Anders 10776 From: Anders Honore Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind 04-01-02 08:36:49, Sarah skrev: >Hi Anders, > >Hope you?re still around and on holiday/vacation still. Hi Sarah. No, school started again this week. But I am looking at the threads that sound most interesting and trying to keep up. > --- Anders Honore wrote: > >A:> He made some comments in his notes (or was it his introduction?) to >his >> translation of the Samyutta Nikaya. I can't >> remember where it is (and there's quite few pages to skim through) >> though, so it may be a while before I can be more >> specific about this. > >Does this mean that he concludes they are sometimes ?dead wrong?? Maybe. >Does it mean they really are sometimes ?dead wrong?? Perhaps it means our >understanding of the Teachings might sometimes be ?dead wrong?. Anyway, >I?m not at all sure I share his sentiments and would be happy to discuss >any specific examples. Well, as I said, I can't remember where it was specifically, but I think he did meniton in one note, something about the commentaries leaning heavily on Abbidhammic theory (specifically, the doctrine of having "momemnts" of enlightenment to the next stage, where one briefly sees Nibbana), which he commented was something he had found no basis at all for in the Sutta Pitaka. To be honest, It's not something I have found any basis for either. Anyway, my own teacher told me that he had detected a change in Bikkhu Bodhi's writings recently. He asked a friend who knows the Bikkhu well, and it seems that he has been quite ill recently. And seemingly, richer from the experience. Personally, I found some of his earliest essays (particularly one about Mahayana and Oneness), to be rather poor and preconceived (it was pretty obvious that his understanding of Mahayana doctrine was not very large). But I find that his essays nowadays are more insightful, investigative and less preconcieved. Although I don't take all of his writings for granted as true, he represents to me, along with the likes of Thannisarro Bikkhu and Ajahn Brahmavamso, one of the most authoritative figues on Theravada Buddhism today. >A:> Btw, did I mention that I now have his full translations of the Digha, >> Majhima and Samyutta Nikayas? A friendly soul sent >> them to me for free shortly after I I took a break from dsg. > >S:This is really great news. I know you?ll make very good use of them. >Anumodana indeed to the ?friendly soul?. Yes. I have found any of them to be quite interesting. >A:> Perhaps I should clarify my own relationship with the commentaries. I >> evaluate them in the context of the suttas >> themselves. If I find that there isn't any valid basis for what the >> commentaries propose in the suttas themselves, then I >> don't buy it. It doesn't mean that I reject it as untrue or anything, >> because quite frankly I don't bother myself with having to >> label things as being "untrue" or "true". It just means that I don't >> find them relevant for me. > >S:I think this is a pretty healthy approach to the entire Tipitaka, >Anders. If we?re reading something which is not relevant to us at the >time, no need to ?buy it?. No need to reject it either (as you say) and >who knows what will be relevant later. My approach is pretty close to >this, I think. There are many parts of the Tipitaka now which I consider >(not having found them relevant before). There are many other parts I just >leave. > >I agree that it is the testing, proving and direct experience right now >that counts. On the other hand, wrong view and wrong practise always >thinks it?s right, so it?s very useful indeed to continually consider, >check and question what the Tipitaka itself says. Naturally. Personally, if I find something in the suttas contradictory to my own understanding, I try and examine my own mind to discern what it is that is the cause of my disagreement. If I don't find it immediately, I note to myself that I should probably not hold unto it tooo hard, as I am most likely in the wrong. > For example, many people >think they have attained jhanas, but when they read the texts in detail >and consider carefully, they find that they are mistaken. The same applies >to other insights and levels of bhavana (mental development). That?s why >the intellectual and direct understanding work together in a kind of >spiral (as Rob K once described). Yes, that is actually a good point. Intellectual understanding can come in very handy, and it is indeed often skilful expedient means. When I am admonishing against intellectual/conceptual understanding, it when that understanding becomes speculative, as opposed to practical. And it isn't helped by the fact, that we have a whole lifetime (or countless ones) of accumulation of delusion, which manifests itself in concepts, which we also have to uproot in order to come to Panna. It can be extremely difficult to properly discern what is skilful and what is not. 10777 From: Anders Honore Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind 04-01-02 08:36:49, Sarah skrev: >Hi Anders, > >Hope you?re still around and on holiday/vacation still. Hi Sarah. No, school started again this week. But I am looking at the threads that sound most interesting and trying to keep up. > --- Anders Honore wrote: > >A:> He made some comments in his notes (or was it his introduction?) to >his >> translation of the Samyutta Nikaya. I can't >> remember where it is (and there's quite few pages to skim through) >> though, so it may be a while before I can be more >> specific about this. > >Does this mean that he concludes they are sometimes ?dead wrong?? Maybe. >Does it mean they really are sometimes ?dead wrong?? Perhaps it means our >understanding of the Teachings might sometimes be ?dead wrong?. Anyway, >I?m not at all sure I share his sentiments and would be happy to discuss >any specific examples. Well, as I said, I can't remember where it was specifically, but I think he did meniton in one note, something about the commentaries leaning heavily on Abbidhammic theory (specifically, the doctrine of having "momemnts" of enlightenment to the next stage, where one briefly sees Nibbana), which he commented was something he had found no basis at all for in the Sutta Pitaka. To be honest, It's not something I have found any basis for either. Anyway, my own teacher told me that he had detected a change in Bikkhu Bodhi's writings recently. He asked a friend who knows the Bikkhu well, and it seems that he has been quite ill recently. And seemingly, richer from the experience. >A:> Btw, did I mention that I now have his full translations of the Digha, >> Majhima and Samyutta Nikayas? A friendly soul sent >> them to me for free shortly after I I took a break from dsg. > >S:This is really great news. I know you?ll make very good use of them. >Anumodana indeed to the ?friendly soul?. Yes. Many of them are quite interesting. >A:> Perhaps I should clarify my own relationship with the commentaries. I >> evaluate them in the context of the suttas >> themselves. If I find that there isn't any valid basis for what the >> commentaries propose in the suttas themselves, then I >> don't buy it. It doesn't mean that I reject it as untrue or anything, >> because quite frankly I don't bother myself with having to >> label things as being "untrue" or "true". It just means that I don't >> find them relevant for me. > >S:I think this is a pretty healthy approach to the entire Tipitaka, >Anders. If we?re reading something which is not relevant to us at the >time, no need to ?buy it?. No need to reject it either (as you say) and >who knows what will be relevant later. My approach is pretty close to >this, I think. There are many parts of the Tipitaka now which I consider >(not having found them relevant before). There are many other parts I just >leave. > >I agree that it is the testing, proving and direct experience right now >that counts. On the other hand, wrong view and wrong practise always >thinks it?s right, so it?s very useful indeed to continually consider, >check and question what the Tipitaka itself says. Naturally. Personally, if I find something in the suttas contradictory to my own understanding, I try and examine my own mind to discern what it is that is the cause of my disagreement. If I don't find it immediately, I note to myself that I should probably not hold unto it tooo hard, as I am most likely in the wrong. > For example, many people >think they have attained jhanas, but when they read the texts in detail >and consider carefully, they find that they are mistaken. The same applies >to other insights and levels of bhavana (mental development). That?s why >the intellectual and direct understanding work together in a kind of >spiral (as Rob K once described). Yes, that is actually a good point. Intellectual understanding can come in very handy, and it is indeed often skilful expedient means. When I am admonishing against intellectual/conceptual understanding, it when that understanding becomes speculative, as opposed to practical. And it isn't helped by the fact, that we have a whole lifetime (or countless ones) of accumulation of delusion, which manifests itself in concepts, which we also have to uproot in order to come to Panna. It can be extremely difficult to properly discern what is skilful and what is not. And skilful to what aim....? All questions worth asking whenever we set up thought constructs to achieve something. 10778 From: manji Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 11:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa - a bit of dhamma Hi Sarah, Thinking if there is only understanding of dhamma as paramattha dhamma, then maybe this might be not understanding "dhamma". The dhamma are "that which supports" (root word "dhr"). There is no doubt that the words we speak daily support a conventional existence, also there are special connection words that help connect to and support more direct teachings. These are all dhammas. I am thinking that abhidhamma is full of vijjamana pannati. This is the reason it is called, "abhi-dhamma". It is as close as there is to the dhamma, its right up to it. Like a rubbing which is placed right up to the tablet. So these are pannati. Zen Koans are masterful objects that are using pannati, recalling the dhamma of that moment in the student. From there the student may or may not have mindfulness in the event. If sati arises, then naturally there is knowing the "dhammas" that the koan points to. I am thinking that "ABHI" is a very auspicious word, because it requires that someone in communication is "right up to knowing". So words themselves become a powerful connection to the dhamma. This is, I believe, a fundamental of mantra and it is most important. -manji- > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:33 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa - a bit of dhamma > I fully agree with you that it is essential to understand the > difference between concepts and realities and this topic has > been discussed here a lot. Usually, when we talk about > dhammas, and especially with reference to mindfulness, we are > referring to realities (paramattha dhammas) only. All that > can ever be known or seen to rise and fall or be the object > of mindfulness are these same namas and rupas (mental and > physical phenomena) for the reason that pannatti (concepts) > are objects of thinking and imagination only. They don't > actually exist. > > The thinking can be known and being a conditioned reality, it > arises and passes away. The pannatti are merely the > imaginings experienced by the thinking. So it's always the > realities which are known directly. 10779 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 0:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Dear Jonothan, > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 12:10 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] deceiving dhammas > > > Kom > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > > I personally did not hear position A expressed in > India. I did of course > hear position B expressed (with the added detail > that the more abhidhamma > one knew, the better the conditions for awareness > and understanding to > arise). > > I noticed that if someone suggested position B > was not correct, those who > supported position B tended to 'hear' position A > being asserted (which of > course was not the case at all). > > It's ironic. On this list I am probably seen as > a 'position B' person, > while in India the position B camp saw me as a > position A person!! > > Jon > I think given the quotes and references from the different texts that you contribute for others, it wouldn't be accurate to say that you fall in to camp A by any mean. I think as Nina reminds me recently, that benefiting from reading the different levels of details depends on the person's accumulations. Since we all have our own accumulations, it is certainly expected things would turn out differently for each person. I think I understand a bit more anatta intellectually after understanding the complexities of the conditions that cause things to happen. Without (and even with) that understanding, it would be very hard for me to buy the concept of anatta, even though it is explained in so many ways in the sutta. I think for some people, such details wouldn't be necessary: it is already plain to them. Although remembering (not a whole lot) the details of conditionalities hasn't directly helped knowing the nama and rupa better, understanding the complexities remove some doubts about anattaness of the dhamma and I am fully appreciative for the chance of hearing it. As K. Jaran reminds us recently, it is necessary to be "phu trong", to be sincere and know with wisdom the dhamma that actually appears. If remembering the intricate details about some parts of the dhamma doesn't help with understanding realities, why do I try to remember it? On the other hands, the Buddha explained different dhammas to different people with different accumulations: all he explained benefits somebody. Do we have the (perfect) wisdom to say that only listening to this part will benefit me, and listening to this other part won't? Only one knows one self (if one is so lucky; otherwise, it is just a guesstimate). My favorite (favorite, because I still remember it) by my math professor (whose name is Mazmanian, a cause for much amusement especially how he went about teaching Calculus) is "Nothing is further from the truth." (try this with an Armenian accent....). kom 10780 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi Sarah, > I think that the reason there are so many definitions and terms for > citta > may be to help us understand its nature more precisely. In one sense, we > can therefore say citta is pure or clear (pandara) to stress that it > merely cognizes or experiences its object. However citta never arises on > its own, but is always accompanied by at least 7 mental factors > (cetasikas) and these cetasikas ‘colour’ its nature, so to speak. Even > when it is an akusala citta, the citta itself merely experiences the > object but the accompanying cetasikas are attached, averse, ignorant of > and so with regard to the object and condition the citta and vice versa. > (As Jaran stressed, only pandara and never pabhassara can refer to > akusala > cittas) > > As there is never citta without cetasikas (not even for the Buddha;-), > it> is never a question of just removing layers of defilements and finding > pure states, but is always a question of developing skilful states which > can eventually eradicate the kilesas (defilements). I don’t know if this > helps. You ask for an Abhidhamma reference, so let me add this favourite > one of mine from the Atthasalani (PTS trans p.90) and hope it’s relevant > to your question: > > ***** > “.But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying, ‘the king > has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone without his > attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness > should be understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) > phenomena. But it may be said that consciousness has arisen in the > sense > of forerunner. For in worldly phenomena consciousness is the chief, > consciousness is the principal, consciousness is the forerunner. In > transcendental phenomena, however, understanding is the chief, > understanding is the principal, understanding is the forerunner.” > ***** k: Hmm, this is also used in the Abhidhamma Sangaha book. Since all cittas are accompanied by cetasikas, could we in the first instance said they are "pure". Is there more commentaries on this aspect on its pureness and why it is pure. I have wrote to Kom before why I think pureness should not be applicable to all cittas. I would only assert that if it is followed by panna, it should be pure or radiant or luminious (since radiant could be equate to luminious). Then this leaves us the problem of luminious in luminious sutta. Why shouldn't it be cittas accompanied by panna since all cittas must be accompanied by cetasikas? k: There should be consistency used in "pure" just like when we used words in Sutta, they are usually consistent, to prevent misunderstanding or misinterpretation. the problem with Abhidhamma commentaries is that I feel, when they equate pureness, they do not state the audience involved. kind regards Ken O 10781 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 9:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] deceiving dhammas Hi Kom > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > > > > There was another controversy that was discussed in India: > > how much detail does one study conceptually? On one side > > (A), it is said that one only needs to understand the basic > > concepts, and then after that, satipatthana should be the > > main way to develop panna. On the other side (B), it is > > necessary to know lots and lots of details. I understand > > (C) from A. Sujin and A. Supee(misunderstanding?) that one > > should study what one can understand, especially those that > > apply in daily life. k: To me C sound more right, in fact C has answered position A and B, as A and B depends on one inclinations. kind rgds Ken O 10782 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 5:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] My understanding of (and approach to) luminous mind: what I just learned from BKK discussion over new year holidays Hi Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > k: Hmm, this is also used in the Abhidhamma Sangaha book. Since all > cittas are accompanied by cetasikas, could we in the first instance said > they are "pure". Is there more commentaries on this aspect on its > pureness and why it is pure. I believe they are pure or clear (pandara) just in the sense that the nature of cittas is to experience the object and not to perform other tasks. For example, the nature or characteristic of seeing is just to see or experience visible objects. It doesn’t perform the tasks which the various cetasikas perform and in this sense it is ‘clear’. (I’m beginning to prefer this translation for pandara because ‘pure’ carries too many connotations and is too easily confused with pabhassara (luminous)): Dhammasangani (ist book of Abhidhamma), 6: “What on that occasion is thought (citta.m)? The thought which on that occasion is ideation, mind, heart, that which is clear (pa.n.dara), ideation as the sphere of mind, the faculty of mind, intellection, the skandha of intellection, the appropriate element of representative intellection - this is the thought that there then is.” .I have wrote to Kom before why I think > pureness should not be applicable to all cittas. Hope the above helps (though I doubt it will satisfy;-).Perhaps Kom has further ideas. I would only assert > that > if it is followed by panna, it should be pure or radiant or luminious > (since radiant could be equate to luminious). Then this leaves us the > problem of luminious in luminious sutta. Why shouldn't it be cittas > accompanied by panna since all cittas must be accompanied by cetasikas? I agree that we can refer to kusala cittas and especially those accompanied by panna as radiant or luminous and often ‘pabhassara’ is used in this way, like the refined gold. Back to the luminous sutta, firstly it shouldn’t be confused with ‘pandara’ as discussed above. So your question is now, if I understand, why doesn’t ‘pabhassara’ in the sutta refer to cittas accompanied by panna (which must be in the javana process) rather than bhavanga cittas as stated in the commentary to the sutta? As we’ve discussed pabhassara can refer to both and of often we need the assistance of the commentaries to help. Why? Because of limited panna when we read the texts. Would it make sense in the context if ‘luminous’ referred to cittas with panna? I don’t think so, because it is discussing the following skilful and unskilful states in the following sense-door and mind-door processes and comparing these and.stressing the importance of understanding them as they are: “This mind, monks, is luminous, but it is defiled by taints that come from without. But this the uneducated manyfolk understands not as it really is.......” The commentary confirms this explanation and quite honestly, I don’t find it unclear or inconsistent with any other passages. > > k: There should be consistency used in "pure" just like when we used > words in Sutta, they are usually consistent, to prevent misunderstanding > or misinterpretation. the problem with Abhidhamma commentaries is that > feel, when they equate pureness, they do not state the audience > involved. Well, here we’re discussing a Sutta commentary, not an Abhidhamma commentary In the abhidhamma, the definitions are very precise indeed. In the Suttas, words are bound to change in meaning according to context to some degree, just as English and Chinese do too;-) This is why the understanding from the Abhidhamma is so very helpful. Glad to keep trying and approach these questions from different angles. Sorry if I miss the mark again;-) Sarah ====================================================== 10783 From: Sarah Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 5:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa - a bit of dhamma Hi Manji, --- manji wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thinking if there is only understanding of dhamma as paramattha dhamma, > then maybe this might be not understanding "dhamma". The dhamma are > "that which supports" (root word "dhr"). There is no doubt that the > words we speak daily support a conventional existence, also there are > special connection words that help connect to and support more direct > teachings. > > These are all dhammas. I am thinking that abhidhamma is full of > vijjamana pannati. This is the reason it is called, "abhi-dhamma". It is > as close as there is to the dhamma, its right up to it. Like a rubbing > which is placed right up to the tablet. It’s true that ‘dhamma’ can have different meanings in different contexts such as the teachings themselves, noble qualities, the truths, realities endowed with sabhava and so on. There is a good discussion of the various meanings in the commentaries to the Brahmajala Sutta (B.Bodhi translation p.121). However, as I mentioned, when there is reference to awareness of dhammas and to understanding the characteristics, such as the impermanence of dhammas, then it is the 5 khandhas, i.e paramattha dhammas that are being referred to, I think: “..And in the passage: ‘On that occasion there are dhammas, there are aggregates,’ etc (Dhs,121 etc), it means impersonal states.” (p.121 as above) The Abhidhamma details all the various pannati as you say in order that we can learn to see that we live in a make-believe world of concepts, taking these to be realities. For example, we take people, computers and trees to exist, but these are not dhammas, not paramattha dhammas that have a nature and characteristics to be experienced directly. (This doesn't mean that with more insight that we use fewer concepts.) > So these are pannati. Zen Koans are masterful objects that are using > pannati, recalling the dhamma of that moment in the student. From there > the student may or may not have mindfulness in the event. If sati > arises, then naturally there is knowing the "dhammas" that the koan > points to I understand your point and agree (i think). Right now we are using concepts to communicate and these very concepts being used can be a condition for sati to arise. However, sati will not be aware of the concept or the Koan; it will be aware of a reality, a dhamma that is being indicated as I understand.. > > I am thinking that "ABHI" is a very auspicious word, because it requires > that someone in communication is "right up to knowing". So words > themselves become a powerful connection to the dhamma. > This is, I believe, a fundamental of mantra and it is most important. I fully agree with this and I don’t think any of us would be here, talking on the list, if we didn’t have confidence in the value of communication and using words to point to the truths. Thank you also for pointing out the significance of ‘abhi’ and this translation. Great chatting to you and hearing of your interest and consideration of these points, Manji. Sarah ====================================================== 10784 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] human/animal/fish/bird dosa Ken O --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > In my own opinion if a cow killed an Arahant, she is not considered > doing > five heavy kamma bc the cow does not know the person is an Arahant. But > the cow do have negative kamma for killing the person bc there is dosa > (out of fear of harm to the cow offsprings) when the cow do it. Are you sure about this? I always thought that the level of virtue of the 'victim' played a large role in determining the 'heaviness' of the vipaka -- hence the risk in doing any unwholsome action, since we may not know the purity of the other person's sila etc. Just a thought. Jon > In order to commit such heavy kamma, one must be truely aware of the > person identity just like we know our parents identity from baby. Just > like Devadatta and one king who patricide. > > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > I was reading of a person who was killed by a cow (who thought she > > was protecting her calf), shortly after the person had become an > > Arahant. > > A cow is subject to strong biological drives, and probably just had > > an overwhelming need to protect her calf. > > The cows' intention was to protect her calf (possibly without thought > > for her own life, maybe not even to actually kill - just chase away) - > > but she killed an Arahant....... > > > > 1. Would the 'good' intention to protect, ameliorate to any degree > > the actual consequences of killing an Arahant? > > 2. Would the dosa arising in the cow at the time, be the same sort > > of mental factor (cetasika?) that would arise in human faced with > > someone they feared or hated? > > 3. Are humans/animals/birds/fishes simply different forms, within > > which the same namas arise? > > 4. Am I using the terms (dosa, cetasika, nama) correctly yet? > > > > metta, > > Christine 10785 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 5:53am Subject: Subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Dear Dhamma Friends, The following is a translation of the subcommentary on the White Radiant Mind. I translated this subcommentary on the request of Kom, Nina, and Robert Epstein. I would be very grateful to the readers of Pali who would be kind enough to correct any inaccuracies or mistakes found in the translation. For the convenience of such readers, I also included the original Tiikaa Pali. This subcommentary has important statements that are relevant to the field of psychotherapy, and that of systems engineering. Can you spot them? I wrote separate English language sub-subcommentary (Tiikaa) on this translation, and will post it later separately. For the time being, please enjoy the translation. THE NATURE OF SUBCOMMENTARIES The third most reliable source of Buddhist wisdom and knowledge is subcommentaries (Tiikaa). The subcommentaries have the role of explaining or elaborating important points in the commentaries. That role is in line with their name, subcommentary. They may also play the additional role of commentaries when they directly elucidate the Buddha's own words and statements which the commentaries left unexplained. The above two facts are very critical issues for anyone who intends to translate subcommentaries. This is because the Pali verbs allow the authors to omit the subjects. Such omissions are called "Ajjhaaharitabba or Paatha sesa". When we translate Pali into English, we need to retrieve those hidden subjects because the English verbs need their subjects. As subcommentaries explains either the statements of the commentator or those of the Buddha, we need to be clear and specific about the issue of who said what! Thus, you will find in my translation the phrases like "the Buddha said…" and "the commentator said …" although you won't find those subjects in the original Pali. The subcommentary on the White Radiant Mind is both a subcommentary and a commentary. That is to say, the Tiikaa author not only explained the statements of the commentator, but also directly elucidated the Buddha's own words. He also directly quoted a Suttam statement as well in support of his argument. In short, he felt the need to act as an original commentator. The lesson I learnt from translating this particular subcommentary is that grammartical correctness alone is not enough. A translator of this subcommentary also needs to have contextual disciplinary correctness as well. Another lesson I learnt from this effort is that you need to read thoroughly, or translate the Suttam and commentary if possible, before you translate the subcommentary. At first, I have had no intention of translating the whole commenary passage. But, when I began to translate the subcommentary, I was forced to translate bits and pieces of unintended parts as well of the commentary. This became a constant distraction and made me decide to translate the whole commentary passage beforehand. That is why I was able to post the commentary translation first of the White Radiant Mind. I began translating the subcommentary on the White Radiant Mind in the evening of the Christmas 2001, and finished it 27 December 2001. I have copied and pasted the Pali passage of the Tiikaa from Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3. I made sure that the English translation closely follows the syntax of the original Pali while making sure that the general readers can read them in as natural English as possible. Students of Pali who read these translations can perform "Syntax Walkthrough" to improve their subcommentarial Pali. In addition, I also provided some notes on selected, often difficult, expressions for further convenience. In fact, I ended up writing the sub-subcommentary (Anutiikaa) on the White Radiant Mind. The following Subcommentary passage comes from Section 49, Ekakanipaata, Anguttaranikaaya Tiikaa Pali. SUBCOMMENTARY PALI 49. Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. Pabhassarataadayo naama vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno naama atthii"ti? Itaro aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa ayam taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati dassento "niilaadiinan"ti-aadimaaha. Tathaa hi "so evam samaahite citte parisuddhe pariyodaate"ti (dii. ni. 1.243-244; ma. ni. 1.384-386, 431-433; paaraa. 12-13) vuttam. Tenevaaha– "idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassaran"ti. Kim pana bhavangacittam nirupakkilesanti? Aama sabhaavato nirupakkilesam, aagantuka-upakkilesavasena pana siyaa upakkilittham. Tenaaha– "tañca kho"ti-aadi. Tattha attano tesañca bhikkhuunam paccakkhabhaavato pubbe "idan"ti vatvaa idaani paccaamasanavasena "tan"ti aaha. Ca-saddo atthuupanayane. Kho-saddo vacanaalankaare, avadhaarane vaa. Vakkhamaanassa atthassa nicchitabhaavato bhavangacittena sahaavatthaanaabhaavato upakkilesaanam aagantukataati aaha– "asahajaatehii"ti-aadi. Raagaa-dayo upecca cittasantaanam kilissanti vibaadhenti upataapenti caati aaha– "upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihii"ti. Bhavangacittassa nippariyaayato upakkilesehi upakkilitthataa n±ma natthi asamsatthabhaavato, ekasantatipariyaapannataaya pana siyaa upakkilitthataapariyaayoti aaha– "upakkilittham naamaati vuccatii"ti. Idaani tamattham upamaaya vibhaavetum "yathaa hii"ti-aadimaaha. Tena bhinnasantaanagataayapi naama iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati, pageva ekasantaanagataaya iriyaayaati imam visesam dasseti. Tenaaha– "javanakkhane…pe… upakkilittham naama hotii"ti. SUBCOMMENTARY TRANSLATION 49. In the ninth statement, the expression `radiant' means complete purity due to natural complete cleanness. That is why the commentator said "pure, completely clean." Because the qualities like radiance are attributes available in the color element, the commentator posed the question "How could there be such a thing as the color of the mind?" Having negated that question as "No" due to the mind's immateriality, and showing the other argument for explaining complete cleansing of such a mind, the commentator made the statement beginning with "any color such as brown". In fact, similarly it has been said by the Buddha that he, when the mind is thus in focus, clean, pure, … For that very reason, the commentator said that, "this mind, too, is radiant because it is completely clean due to the absence of blots." Why then is the life-cause consciousness without blots? Well, the absence of blots is by its nature. But, it may become tarnished by guest blots. For that reason, the Buddha said that, "And, that very mind..." and so on. In that statement, having first said "this" due to being in the presence of his and those monks, the Buddha now said `that' as an afterthought. The particle "ca" is used in the sense of bringing along the meaning. The particle "kho" appears as a speech embellishment or in the determinative sense. With the said meaning being decided (as the life-cause consciousness), the commentator said the statement starting with "By the asynchronous mental events…" due to the state of the blots being guests as they do not have the nature of standing together with the life-cause consciousness. The commentator said that the phrase "by the (guest) blots" means "by the mental events with lust and so on" because phenomena such as lust tarnish, injure, and menace the mental chain by catching the latter. In reality, there is no such a case of the life-cause consciousness being tarnished by blots because of unmixableness. However, through inclusion in the same mental chain, there may be an indirect method of saying about the life-cause consciousness being tarnished. Therefore, the commentator said that "the Buddha said the scenario of being tarnished." Now, in order to elucidate that meaning by an example, the commentator made the statement beginning with "Like… indeed". By that example, the commentator showed this significance, that blaming even the behavior arising from the different mental chains is evident in the world, __ no chance for the behavior arising from the same mental chain to get away from censure. Therefore, the commentator said that "the naturally pure life-cause consciousness comes to be tarnished by guest blots happening at the moments of the rapid repeats…" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Can't see any notes? Don't panic. An English language sub- subcommentary (Tiikaa) on this translation is coming soon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- With Best Wishes Suan Lu Zaw http://bodhiology.org For those who missed the previous post on the commentary COMMENTARY PALI 49. Navame pabhassaranti pandaram parisuddham. Cittanti bhavangacittam. Kim pana cittassa vanno naama atth²ti? Natthi. Niilaadiinañhi aññataravannam vaa hotu avannam vaa yamkiñci parisuddhataaya "pabhassaran"ti vuccati. Idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassaram. Tañca khoti tam bhavangacittam. Aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkhane uppajjanakehi. Upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkilitthattaa upakkilittham naamaati vuccati. Katham? Yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro vaa aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaanam duraacaaraanam avattasampannaanam puttaanañceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaanañca vasena "attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na tajjenti na sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii"ti avannam akittim labhanti, evamsampadamidam veditabbam. Aacaara-sampannaa maataapitaro viya ca aacariyupajjhaayaa viya ca bhavangacittam datthabbam, puttaadiinam vasena tesam akittilaabho viya javanakkhane rajjanadussanamuyhanasa bhaavaanam lobhasahagataadiinam cittaanam vasena uppannehi aagantukehi upakkilesehi pakatiparisuddhampi bhavangacittam upakkilittham naama hotiiti. COMMENTARY TRANSLATION 49. In the ninth statement, the term `radiant' signifies whiteness or purity, and means complete cleanness. The term `mind' refers to the life-cause consciousness. How is there such a thing as the color of the mind? There isn't. Whatever thing, be it with any color such as brown, or be it colorless, is said to be radiant, due to its complete cleanness. This mind, too, is said to be radiant because it is completely clean due to the absence of blots. The phrase `and that very mind' means `that life-cause consciousness.' The phrase `by guest' refers to the asynchronous mental events happening later at the moments of the rapid repeats. The phrase `by blots' means "by the mental events with lust and so on." The Buddha said the scenario of being tarnished due to the mind being tarnished by things such as lust. How so? Like the virtuous and refined parents or teachers and preceptors, - on account of the immoral, unrefined, undutiful sons or insider pupils and live-in pupils, - indeed received condemnation and notoriety as those who do not threaten, train, instruct, and steer one's own sons or insider pupils and live-in pupils, so this example's completeness should be noted. The life-cause consciousness should be seen as the refined parents or as the refined teachers and preceptors. And, like their earning of notoriety by means of sons and so on, the naturally pure life-cause consciousness comes to be tarnished by guest blots happening, at the moments of the rapid repeats, as the mental events co-arising with greed and so on having the instincts of lust, destructiveness, or foolishness. NOTES Aagantukehi - by guests Asahajaatehi uppajjanakehi - the asynchronous mental events Asahajaatehi – not happening together Uppajjanaka – Literally, those that happen Javanakkhane – the moments of the rapid repeats. Javana literally means drapidity. In the context of a cognitive series called viitthi, rapidity refers to the seven rapid repeats of the similar mental events. From the angle of the life-cause consciousness, the Buddha described the rapid repetitions as guests. It is simply a scenario of bhavanga cittas versus javana cittas. Pakatiparisuddham bhavangacittam - the naturally pure life-cause consciousness. Bhavanga cittam is a shorthand name for the sensuous healthy resultant mind (Kaamaavacara kusala vipaaka cittam). Therefore, the natural purity of bhavanga cittam does not extend beyond the meanings of the terms "kusala" and "vipaaka." Furthermore, it is continually conditioned and challenged by javana cittas. Suan Lu Zaw 10786 From: Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] One Further Thought on One-Pointedness Hi, Jon - In a message dated Sun, 13 Jan 2002 4:48:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jonothan Abbott writes: > PS Hope you had a pleasant trip to Dallas, and that you have an enjoyable > stay there. We all hope that you find some time for posting on the > internet during your stay! > > Jon ============================== Thanks, Jon. The trip was good and we're having a great time. Yes, I am having a bit of a chance to post. BTW, thanks also for your previous informative reply to my post (that you copy below). My main point was to get at the essence of what concentration actually *is*. It was item (c) of yours that seems to be closest to what I had in mind. With metta, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and anyone else interested) - > > > > One more thought: Perhaps one-pointedness is actually the > > tendency or > > disposition or sankhara for an object to continue in consciousness - > > kind of > > a "mental momentum" cetasika. If that is so, then there *could* be > > degrees of > > one-pointedness. The greater the degree of one-pointedness, the less > > arammana > > changing there would be, the greater the "mental stability". The less > > the > > degree of one-pointedness, the less stable would "concentration" be and > > the > > greater the instability and "distraction". Moreover, it would make sense > > for > > vitakka and vicara to foster ekagatta. This is a notion which makes > > sense to > > me. Does it have any basis in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > 10787 From: tikmok Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts Dear Victor, I don't think you and Jon completely agree. From Jon's statement: "a concept is not conditioned in the same sense that a reality (dhamma) is." How do you think his statement is different from yours? kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Victor Yu [mailto:victoryu@s...] > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:58 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts > > > Hello Jon, > > Like you and I both have said, concept is conditioned. > > Regards, > Victor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:09 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts > > > > A concept is not conditioned in the same sense that a reality > (dhamma) is. > > Realities are *by their nature* conditioned, since they have the > > characteristic of impermanence, a characteristic that can be > discerned by > > panna. Concepts have no 'nature' or 'characteristic' capable of being > > experienced by panna, and I do not think of them as 'coming to be' or > > 'arising' in any sense. This is my understanding from my superficial > > knowledge of the abhidhamma. > > > > Jon > > 10788 From: yuzhonghao Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts Hello Kom, I am more interested in what Jon and I agree on. As I understand from what Jon wrote, we both agree that concept is conditioned. Below is Jon's reply to me. "Concepts are undoubtedly conditioned, in the sense that, as you say, they are dependent on thinking, which is itself conditioned." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10599 Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "tikmok" wrote: > Dear Victor, > > I don't think you and Jon completely agree. From Jon's statement: > "a concept is not conditioned in the same sense that a reality (dhamma) > is." How do you think his statement is different from yours? > > kom > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Victor Yu [mailto:victoryu@s...] > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:58 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > > Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts > > > > > > Hello Jon, > > > > Like you and I both have said, concept is conditioned. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts > > > > > > > A concept is not conditioned in the same sense that a reality > > (dhamma) is. > > > Realities are *by their nature* conditioned, since they have the > > > characteristic of impermanence, a characteristic that can be > > discerned by > > > panna. Concepts have no 'nature' or 'characteristic' capable of > being > > > experienced by panna, and I do not think of them as 'coming to be' > or > > > 'arising' in any sense. This is my understanding from my superficial > > > knowledge of the abhidhamma. > > > > > > Jon > > > 10789 From: rikpa21 Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 7:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] one limb of 8 fold path more important --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Anders Honore > I'd rather investigate the fundamental differences in the *way* of discernment betweent the two, rather than their objects, > which to me, seem to be pretty much the same (surely, one can conceptually see things as anatta, just as it is possible to > see with Panna the fruits of Kamma). GREAT point! As has hopefully been evident from most of my corespondences here this is where I tend to lay my emphasis as well: how to get from point A (suffering sentient being) to point B (liberated). That is, after all, where I see the proverbial rubber meeting the road, to use a worn (to the point the tires being bald now :) phrase. > For example, the conceptual notion that things are anatta, usually stand in dependence on faith in the Buddha's > teachings. But it has nothing do with reality. It merely an extrapolated concept, founded in another concept, which in turn > is rooted in ignorance. And because the very foundation upon which this concept rests is fundamentally deluded, it can > hardly be said to be anccurate measurement for what is true or not. I agfree up to a point--though we can draw certain inferencces that are in themselves largely valid, through the use of clear reasoniong, such that we can arrive at an essential foundation that dies not diverge from erality. Namely, that because all things arise in dependence on other factors we can infer (rightly) that they do not possess "core" or "own-being" (as in being self-produced, or causelessly). If this is graped intellectually it is a very difficult proposition to shake, and relies little on faith--other than the faith that we can use logic to arrive at correct infenrences (which could itself be challenged, but that's another debate). Since the purpose of all this study is to eradicate wrong views, anything helpful in this regard which give one strong confidence in the valididity of a proposition is something I find of immense benefit (and have), because it increases confidence greatly in the accuracy of the Buddha's ultimate understanding of the nature of realities as they truly exist. > What characterises Supramundane Right View, is non-dependence, so to speak, in the sense that it manifests in the > absence of conceptual understanding. I would qualify that as "non dependence" in thes sense of non- clingning. But now eher're getting into that space where words and concepts lose all fixed meaning and the presence of any mental elaborations exclude Right View. > But the borders are more complex that as such. It is highly possible to conceptualise an insight experience or > understanding, where we turn the understanding itself into and object, and thus deviate from the direct seeing. Or maybe > pure direct seeing is simply seeing the concepts as they arise for what they are, rather than the total absence of them > (which, I'd reckon, only goes for Arahants)..... I prever not to speculate on what arahants see or don't; only that based on my understanding, they are able to experience concepts without clinging to them. > >I think we should be very concerned with supramundane panna! > > Certainly! In my experience, the belief that enlightenment (and panna) is an actual possibility, has everything to do with the > actual attainment of that. If one doesn't believe that to be an actual possibility for oneself, either because of lack of self- > belief or simply disbelief in the possibility of enlightenment, then what isn't really practising for it, and chances are that it > won't happen either. I could not have said it better myself. It was one of my teacher's inspirations by example that the supramundane path is not inaccessible, that it is indeed attainable in this very lifetime. That one factor gave me the confidence, above nearly all other factors, to endeavor with all I had to develop and pursue the path. The contrary belief--that these supramundane path is inaccessible, no longer manifests in this world, or that, even having had contact with the Dharma, it is simply "too difficult" or one "lacks the acumulations" is, in my opinion, an extremely toxic one. If I may be blunt, a fatal one. While it is impossible to know for certain short of direct knowledge if it possible or not (or if our accumulations are conducive to its fruition in this lifetime), let alone if anyone has awoken to it (since it's impossible to discern in another due to its relating to absences more than "presences" as much as anything--at least for those lacking similar insight), the mere belief or confidence in the REALISTIC possibility of awakening to this Holy Dharma IN THIS LIFETIME is, in my opinion, an indispensible factor, since it conduces to all the other factors that lead to right development of the path. THAT, to me, represents taking TRUE refuge: in the supreme and unsurpassed attainment of the Buddha; in the truth of the Dhamma as a way leading to freedom IN THIS LIFETIME; and in the Sangha, those who have actualized the fruits of the Dhamma in this very lifetime. I always find your insights delightful and inspiring, Anders, and look forward to more exchanges. 10790 From: Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 8:53pm Subject: vedana/nama Greetings study group, Can someone explain why vedana is classified as nama rather than rupa? Presumably sense of touch is rupa. Is a stomach ache, considered objectively, nama or rupa? What's the difference between a stomach ache and a value. They both feel. Thanks, always enjoy your discussions but my pali is pretty elementary. Larry 10791 From: Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 9:56pm Subject: Re: vedana/nama Sorry, one more thought on this. If it is consciousness that makes something nama, is there a vedana consciousness, sanna consciousness, and sankhara consciousness as well as the sense consciousnesses? Larry 10792 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vedana/nama Hi Larry, Nice to hear from you. This is somewhat academic (not my strong suit, if I have one), but I'll have a crack at it. As I understand it, naama is characterised by its ability to experience something; ruupa doesn't experience anything. Vedanaa is a factor (cetasika) that arises with every moment of consciousness (citta)--either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. It experiences the same object (aarammana) experienced by the citta, at the same time, but only the feeling of the moment (its only function). Of course to me this is all theoretical, I don't claim to be able to distinguish naama from ruupa subjectively from personal experience. Still, I hope it's of some use to you. mike --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings study group, > > Can someone explain why vedana is classified as nama > rather than rupa? > Presumably sense of touch is rupa. Is a stomach > ache, considered > objectively, nama or rupa? What's the difference > between a stomach ache > and a value. They both feel. > > Thanks, always enjoy your discussions but my pali is > pretty elementary. > > Larry 10793 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 10:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana/nama --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Sorry, one more thought on this. If it is > consciousness that makes > something nama, Not consciousness (citta or vi~n~naana) per se, but the ability to experience something... > is there a vedana consciousness, ...so, not consciousness (citta/vi~n~naana), but an attendant mental factor (cetasika)--and vedanaa is also its own khandha... > sanna consciousness, also not consciousness (citta/vi~n~naana), but an attendant mental factor (cetasika)--and sa~n~naa(sp?) is also its own khandha... > and sankhara consciousness as well as the sense > consciousnesses? ...also not consciousness (citta/vi~n~naana), but also its own khandha which includes all cetasikas EXCEPT vedanaa and sa~n~naa. mike 10794 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 11:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Subcommentary On The White Radiant Mind Thank you Suan. As you prepare to post your sub-sub-commentary and notes, I am very pleased to have your translation to study. thanks for your efforts! Looking forward to your sub-sub-commentary. Best, Robert Ep. ======= --- abhidhammika wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > The following is a translation of the subcommentary on the White > Radiant Mind. I translated this subcommentary on the request of Kom, > Nina, and Robert Epstein. > > I would be very grateful to the readers of Pali who would be kind > enough to correct any inaccuracies or mistakes found in the > translation. For the convenience of such readers, I also included the > original Tiikaa Pali. > > This subcommentary has important statements that are relevant to the > field of psychotherapy, and that of systems engineering. Can you spot > them? > > I wrote separate English language sub-subcommentary (Tiikaa) on this > translation, and will post it later separately. > > For the time being, please enjoy the translation. > > > THE NATURE OF SUBCOMMENTARIES > > The third most reliable source of Buddhist wisdom and knowledge is > subcommentaries (Tiikaa). The subcommentaries have the role of > explaining or elaborating important points in the commentaries. That > role is in line with their name, subcommentary. They may also play > the additional role of commentaries when they directly elucidate the > Buddha's own words and statements which the commentaries left > unexplained. > > The above two facts are very critical issues for anyone who intends > to translate subcommentaries. This is because the Pali verbs allow > the authors to omit the subjects. Such omissions are > called "Ajjhaaharitabba or Paatha sesa". When we translate Pali into > English, we need to retrieve those hidden subjects because the > English verbs need their subjects. As subcommentaries explains either > the statements of the commentator or those of the Buddha, we need to > be clear and specific about the issue of who said what! Thus, you > will find in my translation the phrases like "the Buddha said…" > and "the commentator said …" although you won't find those subjects > in the original Pali. > > The subcommentary on the White Radiant Mind is both a subcommentary > and a commentary. That is to say, the Tiikaa author not only > explained the statements of the commentator, but also directly > elucidated the Buddha's own words. He also directly quoted a Suttam > statement as well in support of his argument. In short, he felt the > need to act as an original commentator. > > The lesson I learnt from translating this particular subcommentary is > that grammartical correctness alone is not enough. A translator of > this subcommentary also needs to have contextual disciplinary > correctness as well. > > Another lesson I learnt from this effort is that you need to read > thoroughly, or translate the Suttam and commentary if possible, > before you translate the subcommentary. At first, I have had no > intention of translating the whole commenary passage. But, when I > began to translate the subcommentary, I was forced to translate bits > and pieces of unintended parts as well of the commentary. This became > a constant distraction and made me decide to translate the whole > commentary passage beforehand. That is why I was able to post the > commentary translation first of the White Radiant Mind. > > I began translating the subcommentary on the White Radiant Mind in > the evening of the Christmas 2001, and finished it 27 December 2001. > > I have copied and pasted the Pali passage of the Tiikaa from > Chatthasangayana CD-ROM version 3. I made sure that the English > translation closely follows the syntax of the original Pali while > making sure that the general readers can read them in as natural > English as possible. Students of Pali who read these translations can > perform "Syntax Walkthrough" to improve their subcommentarial Pali. > In addition, I also provided some notes on selected, often difficult, > expressions for further convenience. > > In fact, I ended up writing the sub-subcommentary (Anutiikaa) on the > White Radiant Mind. > > The following Subcommentary passage comes from Section 49, > Ekakanipaata, Anguttaranikaaya Tiikaa Pali. > > > > SUBCOMMENTARY PALI > > 49. Navame pabhassaranti pariyodaatam > sabhaavaparisuddhatthena. Tenaaha– "pandaram parisuddhan"ti. > Pabhassarataadayo naama vannadhaatuyam labbhanakavisesaati > aaha– "kim pana cittassa vanno naama atthii"ti? Itaro > aruupataaya "natthii"ti patikkhipitvaa pariyaayakathaa ayam > taadisassa cittassa parisuddhabhaavanaadiipanaayaati > dassento "niilaadiinan"ti-aadimaaha. > > Tathaa hi "so evam samaahite citte parisuddhe pariyodaate"ti > (dii. ni. 1.243-244; ma. ni. 1.384-386, 431-433; paaraa. 12-13) > vuttam. > > Tenevaaha– "idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti > pabhassaran"ti. Kim pana bhavangacittam nirupakkilesanti? > Aama sabhaavato nirupakkilesam, aagantuka-upakkilesavasena pana > siyaa upakkilittham. Tenaaha– "tañca kho"ti-aadi. > > Tattha attano tesañca bhikkhuunam paccakkhabhaavato > pubbe "idan"ti vatvaa idaani paccaamasanavasena "tan"ti aaha. > > Ca-saddo atthuupanayane. Kho-saddo vacanaalankaare, avadhaarane vaa. > > Vakkhamaanassa atthassa nicchitabhaavato bhavangacittena > sahaavatthaanaabhaavato upakkilesaanam aagantukataati aaha– > "asahajaatehii"ti-aadi. > > Raagaa-dayo upecca cittasantaanam kilissanti vibaadhenti > upataapenti caati aaha– "upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihii"ti. > > Bhavangacittassa nippariyaayato upakkilesehi upakkilitthataa n±ma > natthi asamsatthabhaavato, ekasantatipariyaapannataaya pana siyaa > upakkilitthataapariyaayoti aaha– "upakkilittham naamaati > vuccatii"ti. > > Idaani tamattham upamaaya vibhaavetum "yathaa hii"ti-aadimaaha. Tena > bhinnasantaanagataayapi naama iriyaaya loke gaarayhataa dissati, > pageva ekasantaanagataaya iriyaayaati imam visesam dasseti. Tenaaha– > "javanakkhane…pe… upakkilittham naama hotii"ti. > > > SUBCOMMENTARY TRANSLATION > > 49. In the ninth statement, the expression `radiant' means complete > purity due to natural complete cleanness. That is why the commentator > said "pure, completely clean." Because the qualities like radiance > are attributes available in the color element, the commentator posed > the question "How could there be such a thing as the color of the > mind?" Having negated that question as "No" due to the mind's > immateriality, and showing the other argument for explaining complete > cleansing of such a mind, the commentator made the statement > beginning with "any color such as brown". > > In fact, similarly it has been said by the Buddha that he, when the > mind is thus in focus, clean, pure, … > > For that very reason, the commentator said that, "this mind, too, is > radiant because it is completely clean due to the absence of blots." > Why then is the life-cause consciousness without blots? Well, the > absence of blots is by its nature. But, it may become tarnished by > guest blots. For that reason, the Buddha said that, "And, that very > mind..." and so on. > > In that statement, having first said "this" due to being in the > presence of his and those monks, the Buddha now said `that' as an > afterthought. > > The particle "ca" is used in the sense of bringing along the meaning. > The particle "kho" appears as a speech embellishment or in the > determinative sense. > > With the said meaning being decided (as the life-cause > consciousness), the commentator said the statement starting with "By > the asynchronous mental events…" due to the state of the blots being > guests as they do not have the nature of standing together with the > life-cause consciousness. > > The commentator said that the phrase "by the (guest) blots" means "by > the mental events with lust and so on" because phenomena such as lust > tarnish, injure, and menace the mental chain by catching the latter. > > In reality, there is no such a case of the life-cause consciousness > being tarnished by blots because of unmixableness. However, through > inclusion in the same mental chain, there may be an indirect method > of saying about the life-cause consciousness being tarnished. > Therefore, the commentator said that "the Buddha said the scenario of > being tarnished." > > Now, in order to elucidate that meaning by an example, the > commentator made the statement beginning with "Like… indeed". By that > example, the commentator showed this significance, that blaming even > the behavior arising from the different mental chains is evident in > the world, __ no chance for the behavior arising from the same mental > chain to get away from censure. Therefore, the commentator said > that "the naturally pure life-cause consciousness comes to be > tarnished by guest blots happening at the moments of the rapid > repeats…" > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can't see any notes? Don't panic. An English language sub- > subcommentary (Tiikaa) on this translation is coming soon. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > With Best Wishes > > > Suan Lu Zaw > > http://bodhiology.org > > > > For those who missed the previous post on the commentary > > > COMMENTARY PALI > > 49. Navame pabhassaranti pandaram parisuddham. > Cittanti bhavangacittam. Kim pana cittassa vanno naama > atth2ti? Natthi. Niilaadiinañhi aññataravannam vaa > hotu > avannam vaa yamkiñci parisuddhataaya "pabhassaran"ti > vuccati. Idampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti > pabhassaram. Tañca khoti tam bhavangacittam. > > Aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkhane > uppajjanakehi. Upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkilitthattaa > upakkilittham naamaati vuccati. > > Katham? Yathaa hi siilavantaa aacaarasampannaa maataapitaro vaa > aacariyupajjhaayaa vaa dussiilaanam duraacaaraanam > avattasampannaanam puttaanañceva antevaasikasaddhivihaarikaanañca > vasena "attano putte vaa antevaasikasaddhivihaarike vaa na > tajjenti na sikkhaapenti na ovadanti naanusaasantii"ti avannam > akittim labhanti, evamsampadamidam veditabbam. > > Aacaara-sampannaa maataapitaro viya ca aacariyupajjhaayaa > viya ca bhavangacittam datthabbam, puttaadiinam vasena tesam > akittilaabho viya javanakkhane rajjanadussanamuyhanasa > bhaavaanam lobhasahagataadiinam cittaanam vasena uppannehi > aagantukehi upakkilesehi pakatiparisuddhampi bhavangacittam > upakkilittham naama hotiiti. > > > > COMMENTARY TRANSLATION > > 49. In the ninth statement, the term `radiant' signifies whiteness or > purity, and means complete cleanness. The term `mind' refers to the > life-cause consciousness. How is there such a thing as the color of > the mind? There isn't. Whatever thing, be it with any color such as > brown, or be it colorless, is said to be radiant, due to its complete > cleanness. This mind, too, is said to be radiant because it is > completely clean due to the absence of blots. The phrase `and that > very mind' means `that life-cause consciousness.' > > The phrase `by guest' refers to the asynchronous mental events > happening later at the moments of the rapid repeats. The phrase `by > blots' means "by the mental events with lust and so on." The Buddha > said the scenario of being tarnished due to the mind being tarnished > by things such as lust. > > How so? Like the virtuous and refined parents or teachers and > preceptors, - on account of the immoral, unrefined, undutiful sons or > insider pupils and live-in pupils, - indeed received condemnation and > notoriety as those who do not threaten, train, instruct, and steer > one's own sons or insider pupils and live-in pupils, so this > example's completeness should be noted. > > The life-cause consciousness should be seen as the refined parents or > as the refined teachers and preceptors. And, like their earning of > notoriety by means of sons and so on, the naturally pure life-cause > consciousness comes to be tarnished by guest blots happening, at the > moments of the rapid repeats, as the mental events co-arising with > greed and so on having the instincts of lust, destructiveness, or > foolishness. > > > NOTES > > Aagantukehi - by guests > > Asahajaatehi uppajjanakehi - the asynchronous mental events > > Asahajaatehi – not happening together > > Uppajjanaka – Literally, those that happen > > Javanakkhane – the moments of the rapid repeats. Javana literally > means drapidity. In the context of a cognitive series called viitthi, > rapidity refers to the seven rapid repeats of the similar mental > events. > > From the angle of the life-cause consciousness, the Buddha described > the rapid repetitions as guests. It is simply a scenario of bhavanga > cittas versus javana cittas. > > Pakatiparisuddham bhavangacittam - the naturally pure life-cause > consciousness. Bhavanga cittam is a shorthand name for the sensuous > healthy resultant mind (Kaamaavacara kusala vipaaka cittam). > Therefore, the natural purity of bhavanga cittam does not extend > beyond the meanings of the terms "kusala" and "vipaaka." Furthermore, > it is continually conditioned and challenged by javana cittas. > > > Suan Lu Zaw 10795 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] luminous mind- Anders Hi Anders, --- Anders Honore wrote: A:> Hi Sarah. > No, school started again this week. But I am looking at the threads that > sound most interesting and trying to keep up. Great to hear it.....the secret is obviously to give a good subject name to threads;-) A:> Well, as I said, I can't remember where it was specifically, but I think > he did meniton in one note, something about the > commentaries leaning heavily on Abbidhammic theory (specifically, the > doctrine of having "momemnts" of enlightenment to > the next stage, where one briefly sees Nibbana), which he commented was > something he had found no basis at all for in > the Sutta Pitaka. To be honest, It's not something I have found any > basis for either. Well, let us know if you come across the specific reference you have in mind as I’d be interested to see it. A:> Anyway, my own teacher told me that he had detected a change in Bikkhu > Bodhi's writings recently. He asked a friend > who knows the Bikkhu well, and it seems that he has been quite ill > recently. And seemingly, richer from the experience. > Personally, I found some of his earliest essays (particularly one about > Mahayana and Oneness), to be rather poor and > preconceived (it was pretty obvious that his understanding of Mahayana > doctrine was not very large). But I find that his > essays nowadays are more insightful, investigative and less > preconcieved. Although I don't take all of his writings for > granted as true, he represents to me, along with the likes of > Thannisarro Bikkhu and Ajahn Brahmavamso, one of the most > authoritative figues on Theravada Buddhism today. I’m truly sorry to hear about his illness. There was reference in the interview Mike posted to on-going headaches. I’m not sure if it’s related. I read more of his translation work than anything else, so I can’t comment on the other points. I agree that he is a very authoritative and infulential figure on Ther.Budd. S: > >I agree that it is the testing, proving and direct experience right now > >that counts. On the other hand, wrong view and wrong practise always > >thinks it?s right, so it?s very useful indeed to continually consider, > >check and question what the Tipitaka itself says. > A:> Naturally. Personally, if I find something in the suttas contradictory > to my own understanding, I try and examine my own > mind to discern what it is that is the cause of my disagreement. If I > don't find it immediately, I note to myself that I should > probably not hold unto it tooo hard, as I am most likely in the wrong. > S:> > For example, many people > >think they have attained jhanas, but when they read the texts in detail > >and consider carefully, they find that they are mistaken. The same > applies > >to other insights and levels of bhavana (mental development). That?s > why > >the intellectual and direct understanding work together in a kind of > >spiral (as Rob K once described). > A:> Yes, that is actually a good point. Intellectual understanding can come > in very handy, and it is indeed often skilful > expedient means. When I am admonishing against intellectual/conceptual > understanding, it when that understanding > becomes speculative, as opposed to practical. Anders, we seem pretty much agreed on everything these days;-) A:> And it isn't helped by the fact, that we have a whole lifetime (or > countless ones) of accumulation of delusion, which > manifests itself in concepts, which we also have to uproot in order to > come to Panna. It can be extremely difficult to > properly discern what is skilful and what is not. Let’s agree (I hope) the panna does the uprooting and it uproots the delusion rather than the concepts. Your last sentence can never be stressed enough: “It can be extremely difficult to properly discern what is skilful and what is not”. Thanks Anders.....good to have you around and especially good to find so many points to agree on for now;-) Sarah ====================================================== 10796 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sloth/torpor mental or physical? Lucy These are all good questions you raise below. I wish I knew the answers! Unfortunately, even the little I do know is just from the book. --- Lucy wrote: > Dear Jon > > Thanks for the explanation and reference. I had a much broader > 'working definition' of thina that went on to include things like > watching television or reading fiction - actually, it went on to > include anything that wasn't practising in one way or another. It > didn't necessarily led to middha. According to Nina's 'Cetasikas', thina and midha do not arise with all moments of unwholesome consciousness (akusala cittas), but only with those that are 'prompted' or induced ('prompted' is a term used to describe mental states that arise only after inducement, either by oneself or another -- they are said to be more sluggish than the unprompted ones). > My 'working definitions' are kind of home-made. So don't be alarmed if > I come up with idiotic comments, just correct me and point me to the > right page if you have the time. Thanks. There is nothing wrong with home-made 'working definitions', by which I mean classifying things according to one's own experience. However, we should keep in mind that the terms used in the teachings tend to have very specific meanings that rarely if ever coincide with our normal use of the same term. > Thanks. Anyway, I made thina my > 'cetasika of the week' and have been reading more now, but it is still > not entirely clear. I'm impressed at your dedication (and it 'prompts' me to reply before this week's cetasikas become last week's) > Does thina always arise with middha? And is middha always 'torpor' as > in sleepiness, drowsiness, fogginess, etc.? Could middha extend to > include any mental activity that is not clear of / mindful of the > Dhamma? Or is that going too far? I think you may have already found the answer to these questions in the passage from 'Cetasikas'. But please feel free to follow up if anything is not clear. > What is the cetasika involved in time wasting? Like watching TV when > one is free and the mind is in good condition to engage in practice? > It is a kind of sloth, but often it is prompted in the sense that one > makes a deliberate choice. As I understand it, most 'situations' from our lives are in fact combinations of different kinds of cittas, some kusala but most akusala, and vary according to the individual. If awareness has been developed, the kusala and akusala that arises can be experienced and known for what it is without being identified, classified or labelled. And this will bring more understanding about the true nature of the realities that make up our life. BTW, watching TV does not preclude wholesome moments of consciousness from arising. There could for example be useful reflection on the dhamma, or any of a number of other forms of kusala at moments one was watching TV. Hope this helps your studies for the week! Jon 10797 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: luminous mind: To Sarah, Kom And Nina On Kamma Modifying Dear Suan, Thanks for all your comments and patience with my limited Pali knowledge. Suan, as you suggest that the singular may be used to refer to kamma (actions, deeds) and “and” (but not “both”) might be acceptable as translation in the sentences at the end of this post, this would accord more appropriately with my understanding of the lines and the Abhidhamma. However, I’ve followed your logic and translation explanations (as best I can) and understand why you chose the words you did . I haven’t had a chance to study the translation of the ‘luminous’ sub-commentary, but am excited to to do.so. Many thanks for all your help and hard work over Xmas;-) In appreciation, Sarah ***To all Newbies, Apologies for any confusion. May I just say there are a couple of long-standing threads still contnuing on dsg on ‘parinibbana’ and ‘luminous mind’. It must be most confusing to dip in to them, but you’re most welcome to ask about the relevance or anything else. Some of the posts that would help put you more in the picture have been saved under the same titles in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts The translation that Suan just posted is the ancient sub-commentary to Anguttara Nikaya1,10 “The Finger-Snap” (PTS translation) and is being discussed at considerable length because of the different understandings about the phrase “This mind, monks, is luminous..” It has great significance for many people. I’m not sure, but it might have been Anders who started all the trouble (and hard work;-) ====================================================== --- abhidhammika wrote: > > You also wondered: > > "wonder if, for example, when kamma refers to actions, deeds in > general, whether the singular might be used." > > Suan: Yes. > > You also asked: > > "When there is a question of translation using `and' or `or' as in > this case, rather than using a strictly grammatically logical choice, > would it not be more appropriate to consider the meaning with insight > gained from other relevant passages? In other words, the > understanding gained from other parts of the Tipitaka becomes > essential I would think." > > Suan: I agree. > > In fact, since the time Kom produced Bhikkhu Nyanamoli's translation, > I checked other parts of Tipitaka, and traditional Pali grammar > texts. I won't go into details here, but it is far safer to > translate "api... api" as "either ... or" or merely "and" in this > particular context. S: > > > Tam patisandhiyampi pavattepi ruupaaruuupavipaakakkhandhe janeti. > > > > > > 1. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > > aggegates to arise both at the moment of linking consciousness > > > (conception) both during the current lifetime." > > > > > > 2. It (janaka kamma) can cause resultant physical and mental > > > aggegates to arise either at the moment of linking consciousness > > > (conception) or during the current lifetime." .............................................................................................................................. 10798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 10:02am Subject: Subcommentary Dear Suan, this is wonderful, thank you very much for all the trouble. I have been struggling before on this text and I printed out your translation to study it. Pandara.m for bhavangacitta: it is pandara.m and pabhassara.m, this is interesting. They are difficult words, and it depends on the context how these words are used. The meaning is very clear at the end, why the bhavangacitta is called soiled. Some time ago Jim also printed out for me the Pali of 50-52, which I could not translate yet. But I guess this may be too much for you? I must sound greedy, I am afraid. With much appreciation for all your work, Nina. P.S. I have been staring so long at difficult expressions and like to learn the subco. language more. For example, labbhamakavisesaati (labhati: to obtain. I wait for your further notes and shall then mention all the difficult words. 10799 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 10:02am Subject: suffering >A friend wrote to me: What is the "suffering "described by buddha? Is it the suffering that one > experiences when he/she expects things to be permanent without realising that > nothing is permanent and everything in this universe is subject to change? > Once he/she understands that everything is subject to change, then can that > person still feel suffering? > > I don't quite understand what is really meant by "suffering" and how deep > one's understanding should be about impermanence in order to stop feeling the > suffering in day to day life. In general I believe that the more one > understands that everything is subject to change, the less suffering that > person experiences in life. Is this what buddha talks about? Is what buddha > talks about this simple? Can you please enlighten me? Nina: There are many kinds and many aspects of dukkha, suffering or unsatisfactoriness. The noble Truth of dukkha is actually the impermanence of realities. What is impermanent cannot be a true refuge. I shall first paste from A. Sujin's Cambodian talks: < All of us have to undergo many kinds of dukkha. Let everybody here consider the truth of daily life: we have a body and thus, we are susceptible to sickness, to suffering. We should realize that even a discomfort such as hunger occurring in daily life is dukkha. Is there anybody who never experienced pain or illness? Even while we are sitting now we may feel stiffness. Apart from bodily pain occurring in daily life, there is also mental pain. When we suffer from bodily pain there is bound to be mental affliction as well. We can discern these two kinds of dukkha; we can see that bodily pain is real and that mental pain, oppression or disturbance, is also dukkha. We can understand that these two kinds of dukkha are truly dukkha; they are called ³dukkha dukkha². There are three kinds of dukkha: dukkha-dukkha (intrinsic suffering), vipariùåma dukkha (suffering in change) and saòkhåra-dukkha (suffering inherent in conditioned realities). As regards dukkha-dukkha, this is bodily pain and mental affliction that everybody experiences. This does not mean that people who know these kinds of dukkha are already ariyans. Everybody knows these kinds of dukkha in daily life. There is another kind of dukkha which is vipariùåma dukkha, dukkha because of change. This kind of dukkha occurs when happiness changes, when it does not last. Everybody looks for happiness and wants to experience happiness, but when one has acquired it, it changes again, it does not last. What causes happiness is susceptible to change and then one looks again for something else that can bring happiness. For example, people wish to acquire a particular thing, but when they have acquired it, it can only bring happiness for a moment, and therefore, they wish to acquire something else again that can bring happiness. Thus, happiness which changes and does not last is a kind of dukkha, suffering. Everybody has to experience dukkha, each day, but one does not feel that there is dukkha because of the fact that everything arises and then falls away, that everything changes very rapidly. One does not realize the dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas, saòkhåra dhammas, which are impermanent. The Buddha explained the characteristics of the three kinds of dukkha by way of feelings. As to dukkha-dukkha, this is bodily pain and unpleasant mental feeling, domanassa vedanå, which is mental pain. Thus, when dukkha-dukkha is classified by way of feelings, it includes the painful feeling which accompanies body-consciousness and the unpleasant mental feeling which accompanies the citta with aversion. Happy feeling, sukha vedanå, is a cause for suffering when it changes, and one looks for another object that can bring happiness; thus, it is suffering in change, vipariùåma dukkha. Indifferent feeling, feeling that is neither pleasant nor unpleasant, and also all other dhammas which arise and fall away, which are impermanent, are saòkhåra dukkha. People may well know bodily suffering and mental suffering, and they may well realize that even pleasant feeling is suffering, since it is susceptable to change, but this does not mean that they are ariyans. They cannot become enlightened until they realize the kind of dukkha which is saòkhåra-dukkha, dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities. Is there anybody among you while you are sitting here who really knows to what extent there is dukkha? Everything arises and then falls away extremely rapidly. People who have studied the Dhamma know that a moment of seeing is different from a moment of hearing and that therefore seeing has to fall away before the reality of hearing can arise. Everybody can know through the study of Dhamma that the arising and falling away is dukkha, but this is understanding of the level of theoretical knowledge, pariyatti. This is different from the direct realization of the truth that the dhammas which arise and then fall away are dukkha. > If you like to read more of these, they are now on website: The impermanence of realities can be understood intellectually, but it can only be directly understood by the development of vipassana, insight. The first stage of insight is distinguishing the difference between nama and rupa, and only at a later stage the arising and falling away can be directly realized. Thus this is far off. What about all kinds of suffering in daily life now? They belong to life, we are bound to have aversion about them. Even aversion is only a conditioned reality. When there is more understanding of the phenomena of our life that arise because there are conditions for them, we shall see that it is useless to wish for only pleasant experiences and no suffering. When there is a moment of understanding there is no aversion, there can be a short moment of acceptance, of being able to bear unpleasant events. Is this not a gain? I know an elderly person who has trouble moving about and seeing, he cannot stand this and he is angry with the whole world. I wish I could help him, but he does not like Buddhism and especially the teaching about dukkha. People react differently. When I met my Dhamma friend Jack in India who had come from U.S. I spoke to him about the conditions after Sept. 11 and the safety over there when traveling. He said, we have the Dhamma. Best wishes from Nina.