11600 From: johnrloganis Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:11pm Subject: Re: Kilesas (Defilements) Christine, Thank you for your very clear elaboration. I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. Thank you again, Layman John > "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are > just tacked onto oneself somehow." 11601 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death --- Dear Lucy, I always loved reading the Tibetan texts about death too. Their chod practice looks skilful. Very good to often contemplate death and how it is coming - maybe only moments away. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine > > There's a nice article by Ven. Gunaratna: "Buddhist Reflections on Death" > (The Wheel Publication No. 102/103) in Access to Insight. Haven't got the > URL handy, but follow this: > Theravada Text Archives > Buddhist Publication Society > The Wheel > > Mindfulness of death is one of those practices that are common to > all schools of Buddhism. Not necessarily morbid - in fact, much the > opposite after doing for a while. As you well say, comforting. If you > want some guidance in truly dramatic fashion, have a look at Tibetan > teachings. Examples below: > > " O great king, it is like this. There is no provision against the gleaming > staff of the Lord of Death, there is no protector, no refuge, no friendly > forces, no friends and relatives. Our joints will divide and come apart. > Our flesh and blood will dry up. Our bodies will be racked by sickness. We > shall rage with thirst. Our arms and legs will convulse. We will not be > able to act. We will have no strength. Our bodies will be covered in > saliva, mucus, urine, and vomit. " > > "O great king, within your house incense, flowers, silk hangings, seats, > and various cloths will be collected. With the pillows on the left and > right, your bed will be taken away to the great charnel ground full of > crows, foxes, and nauseating human corpses. Doubtless your motionless body > will lie upon the ground. " > > "Within the impermanent play of the rain-clouds of this life, ° > In garlands of flashing lightning, dances the Lord of Death. > Day and night, the falling rain of the changing seasons > Drowns whatever sprouts may grow within the three levels. " > > "The three worlds' impermanence is like the clouds of autumn. > The birth and death of beings has the aspect of a dance. > The lives of beings vanish like lightning into space. > Like waterfalls cascading down a precipitous mountain, > As quickly as the water comes it falls away. " > > etc. > > (I find this stuff strangely inspiring) > > Best wishes > Lucy 11602 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 6:53pm Subject: The Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast --- Dear Frank, Unfortunately the section is one of the short ones (cf section I which is 90 pages) only 2 pages. The only extra info. is that the sotapanna have eradicated all the hallucinations except for the those at the level of citta and sanna for dukkha and foul. It makes a lot of sense to me as the sotapanna still (may) enjoy sexual pleasure, still can be strongly attached to children etc.. Why? Because they still have these perversions of view that see what is inherently dukkha and foul as sukkha and beautiful. best wishes robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the > Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure > and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara > is more of a synopsis. > > -fk > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > -Dear Frank, > > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > > Patisambhidhimagga > > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > > this sutta in > > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > > Catukkanipata > > -Rohitassavaggo > > (9)Hallucinations > > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > > perception, of > > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > > to say that > > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > > hallucination of > > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > > say that there is > > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > > peraception, of thinking > > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > > in soullessness > > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > > views. Brethren, > > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > > hallucination of > > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > > brethren, are.the > > four hallucinations. > > > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > > clear-sight in > > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > > four?Brethren, to say > > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > > in sorrow, no soul > > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > > the four kinds of > > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > > > The transient as transient, and woe > > > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > > > best wishes > > robert > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > > wrote: > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html 11603 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:53pm Subject: correctionThe Foul and the Beautful Re: [dsg] Beauty and the Beast --- should have been "they still have the perversions of citta and sanna that see ..." In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Frank, > Unfortunately the section is one of the short ones (cf section I > which is 90 pages) only 2 pages. The only extra info. is that the > sotapanna have eradicated all the hallucinations except for the those > at the level of citta and sanna for dukkha and foul. > It makes a lot of sense to me as the sotapanna still (may) enjoy > sexual pleasure, still can be strongly attached to children etc.. > Why? Because they still have these perversions of view that see what > is inherently dukkha and foul as sukkha and beautiful. > > best wishes > robert > In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > Thanks for the reference Robert. Does the > > Patisambhidhimagga go into more detail of what pure > > and impure means? The sutta you quoted below Anguttara > > is more of a synopsis. > > > > -fk > > > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > -Dear Frank, > > > The 4 vipallasa are given a section (VIII) of the > > > Patisambhidhimagga > > > (a book of the Tipitika). They are also the focus of > > > this sutta in > > > the Anguttara Nikaya Vol 2 > > > Catukkanipata > > > -Rohitassavaggo > > > (9)Hallucinations > > > Brethren there are these four hallucination of > > > perception, of > > > thinking, and of views. What are the four? Brethren, > > > to say that > > > there is a permanence in irnpermanence is a > > > hallucination of > > > perception, of thinking and of views. Brethren, to > > > say that there is > > > happiness in sorrow is a hallucination of > > > peraception, of thinking > > > and of views. Brethren, to say that there is a soul > > > in soullessness > > > is a hallucination of perception, of thinking and of > > > views. Brethren, > > > to say that there is purity in impurity is a > > > hallucination of > > > perception, of thinking and of views. These indeed, > > > brethren, are.the > > > four hallucinations. > > > > > > Brethren, there are also these four kinds of > > > clear-sight in > > > perception, thiniking and views. What are the > > > four?Brethren, to say > > > that there is impermanence in impermanence sorrow: > > > in sorrow, no soul > > > in soullessness and impurity in impurity-these are > > > the four kinds of > > > clearsight in perception, thinking and views. > > > > > > They who in change discern the permanent, > > > > > > And bliss in what is woe, and see the self > > > > > > In what is selfless, in th' impure the pure- > > > > > > They wander on the path of wrongful view. > > > > > > Poor senseless creatures with their minds unhinged, > > > > > > In Màra's bondage bound,' not in safe ward,* > > > > > > Back to the round of birth and death they go. > > > > > > But when th' Enlightened Ones who bring the light > > > > > > Appear, and teach the Norm that shows the Way > > > > > > That leads to sorrow's ceasing, hearing Them > > > > > > Men become wise, and get sane minds, and see > > > > > > The transient as transient, and woe > > > > > > As being woe, and what is selfless see > > > > > > As selfless, as impure what is impure- > > > > > > Thus they have woe transcended by Right View > > > > > > best wishes > > > robert > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan > > > wrote: > > > > Hi Kom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html > > > > > 11604 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah F. to Mrs van Gorkom, Mr Epstein, and Dr. Num --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Mr. Epstein, your story of the lady who lost her whole family one > after the other, is a bit like Ashleys' father - a couple of days > before Ashley was killed, his Dad flew from Sydney to Brisbane to > visit him; after going back, the Police had to call on him and tell > him what had happened. Ashleys' Mum was killed eight years ago in > an identical car accident (someone running a red light), and his Dad > brought up Ashley and his sister alone. Once there were four in the > family, now it's down to two. Life sucks. Wow. I have a similar story from my family. If you really look at it, it does make you want to get unattached faster, doesn't it? scary planet. robert ep. 11605 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India Ch 5, no. 1 excellent and thank you, Eric. I always feel educated by you and bolstered in practice. robert ======= --- rikpa21 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > There is no rule that all people should develop samatha, > > calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter > what one1s > > inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears > because > > of conditions is impermanent and non-self. > > Hello Nina, I just to add that I find some points of question on > this when you say there is no need to develop samatha "to a high > degree." > > To my understanding, samatha exists as a means to pacify the > hindrances, and is a necessary prerequisite for liberative insight, > individual accumulations notwithstanding. So long as the mind is > overly distracted by factors like kukucca, kamachanda, vyapada, > etc., the type of highly developed insight associated with the > lokuttara panna lacks the appropriate conditions to arise. > > If the mind is beset by sensuous desire, by ill-will, by skeptical > doubt and worry, sloth and torpor, by restlessness and excitement, > it is impossible to cultivate any meaningful degree of equanimity-- > upekkha--one of the seven enlightenment factors. Likewise, when the > mind is beset by these hindrances dhamma-vicaya is extremely > difficult as the mind is preoccupied with unskillful thoughts and > elaborations (ayoniso manasikara). How can we truly investigate the > characteristics of dhammas as they are, if the mind is worrying > about the credit card balance, yesterdaty's argument with the boss, > tomorrow's vacation plans? Or if the mind is unstable and scattered > to the ten directions due to resetlessness and excitement or sunk > into the pit of laziness? Or perhaps most debilitating of all, > caught in the belief that awakening is impossible, not in this > lifetime, something for others, not for these khandas, which could > easily be the enemy of moha masqeurading as false humility? > > According to my understanding and reading of the Suttas, the Buddha > spoke plainly in the Satipatthana Sutta that the "monk trains > himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrications, and to breathe > out calming bodily fabrications." Samatha, in other words. And this > as a prelimuinary exercise the leads the mind to tranquility and > pleasant abiding here and now, engendering piti, one of the seven > enlightenment factors. > > This is part and parcel with the development of jhana to the degree > liberative insight has the conditions for arising (samadhi is after > all another of the bojjhangas), as well as viriya, and so on. The > six pairs (yuggalas) also factor heavily into this, as these > engender the lightness and pliancy of mind neeeded to remain focused > appropriately on the body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in & of > themselves, without bias, detached, leading to equanimity as regards > formations and ultimately to change-of-lineage and the insight that > cuts the knot of grasping at the root, if only for a short while at > first, and finally at the moment or arahata-magga-nana. > > According the the Buddha's instructions in many Suttas, including > the Parinibbana Sutta, it is the seven factors of enlightenment, > when brought to culmination, that lead to clear knowing and release > here and now. Only when these factors are present are the approriate > conditions present for the wisdom to arise that permanently severs > the fetters binding us to the wheel of samsaric existence. > > > We > > should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness > include all the > > common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant > feeling, hearing, > > tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of > satipatthåna. > > Indeed, and we should likewise not avoid the training needed for > true sati to remain steadfast throughout our daily activities of > standing, sitting, walking, and lying. But the type of sati that > remains steadfast and mindful, clearly comprehending, is, for all > but the rarest spiritual savant, a product of consistent and > diligent training, typically under the guidance of accomplished > kalyanamitratas (those who we have confidence enough in to believe > their understanding of the Dhamma is the product of direct knowledge > and not theory). > > In other words, while I completely agree that we can (and eventually > must) take any object as an object of sati, even (and especially) > concepts, true sati (I am unsure of what is meant by "Satipatthana" > here in DSG apart from its meaning "foundation of mindfulness", and > I prefer to use the word samma sati when speaking of Right > Mindfulness) is developed over time and with concerted, consistent > application of the trainings laid out by the Buddha in all spheres > of activity, beginning with the body, and when the mind is > appropriately trained in this foundation to move on to vedana, then > citta, then dhammas (which also embody conceptual categories such as > the Four Noble Truths and so on and its attendant meditations on the > origins and cessations of sufferings as they arise through the six > doorways, as well as the path, including the indispensible factor of > Right Concentration, that leads to the permanent cessation of > suffering). 11606 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhana Dear Nina, Thanks for these important notes, which are appreciated. Best, Robert Ep. ================== --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 27-02-2002 05:46 schreef Robert Epstein op epsteinrob@Y...: > > > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and > > the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher > > should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for > > them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't > > later fall into regret. This is our message to you." > > > > For those who have said that the practice of the jhanas is unnecessary, I > > wonder > > what you think of this direct statement of the Buddha's? > > > > Nina: Dear Rob Ep, thank you for your well formulated answer to me. You > mention very good points. I join Robert K. in his answer about the different > meanings of jhana. Here is also a text about jhaana: > > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > > > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > Contemplate. Contemplate the thirtyeight > > objects (of samatha), > lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. > contemplate the characteristics beginning with impermanence (dukkha, anatta) > of the khandhas, the ayatanas, etc. > Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha. > Develop samatha and vipassana, it was said. Do not be forgetful. > > > > Thus, there are two kinds of upanijjhana, contemplation (or meditation): in > samatha, attained with the 38 meditation subjects, and also in vipassana > with regard to the three characteristics, that are penetrated only by > vipassana. > There are more distinctions as to jhana, mundane and supramundane, as Jon > has written in excellent posts. I kept part of them and quote now: > > useful description of the difference between mundane jhana > moments (i.e. jhana consciousness resulting from the > development of samatha) and Eightfold Path moments (i.e. the > supramundane consciousness arising at a moment of > enlightenment). This follows the comment in the earlier > passage that for every attainer to the Eightfold Path, whether > 'bare insight' attainer (i.e. without mundane jhana) or otherwise, > all supramundane path moments are considered types of jhana > consciousness "because they occur in the mode of closely > contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane > jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane > jhanas". > > I find interesting the differences that are noted in the passage, > which I have pasted below. To me they certainly do not suggest > any *necessary* connection between mundane jhana and the > moment of path consciousness.> > > Jon > > CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 > mundane jhanas in several important respects. [5] > First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object some > concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane > jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the unconditioned reality. > [5.1] > Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the > defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the > supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate defilements so that > they can never again arise. [5.2] > Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the fine > material world and thus sustain existence in the round of > rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to > the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and > death. [5.3] > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhanas is > subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane > jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with > concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and > wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble > Truths. [5.4]> > > [Jon's notes:] > 5. There are 4 important differences between jhana citta and the > path citta – > 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of > the moment of path citta is Nibbana. > 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta > eradicates kilesa. > 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas > magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death. > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the > degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas > the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that > pierces the Truths. > --------------------------------------- > > > CMA Ch. I, Guide (ie. summary of commentary) to ##30-31 > > > > "All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits > through the > > development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three > characteristics of > > impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they > differ among > > themselves in the degree of their development of concentration > (samadhi). > > > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called > > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they > reach the > > path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path > and fruit > > which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained > before reaching > > the path... > > > > "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path > and > > fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. > They are so > > considered because they occur in the mode of closely > contemplating their > > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and > because they > > possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to > their > > counterparts in the mundane jhanas." [4] > > [ends] > > =================================== > > > > Jon's notes: > > 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics > of > > reality, rather than any other factor, that brings the attainment of > the > > path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta). > > 2. Magga citta can be attained without the previus > development of > > concentration to the level of mundane jhana. > > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration > accompanying > > the moment of path citta *`corresponds to'* the first level of > jhana. > > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to > `correspond to' > > jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with > same full > > absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > > End quote from Jon's post. > > Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the > development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is > a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful > in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one > wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one > wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few > people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. > XII, 8: > preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do it. To extend > the sign and reach absorption is difficult for one who has done the > preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do it....> > It is important to take note of this warning. > > Best wishes, from Nina. 11607 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Christine, I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy and ploughing through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the time this approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it takes more sophistication to really sense what is really required. For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed and for you to feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then back to Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous Masters, he started teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery was invaded by soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's quarters and stuck a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an eye?'. Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' The general turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the monastery. My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when bad things happen it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally upset. You are probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and experiencing trauma. At a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that and work it through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then when you feel a little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are in more easily and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush anything anyway. So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware of what's happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of them take years to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the transformation of your consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. Take it easy on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. Best Regards, Robert Ep. ============================ --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah and all, > > Just exploring thoughts from recent events ........ just wandering > about in the scriptures. I like to know that the Buddha and the > Arahants experienced and overcame the sort of things I experience, > and I like to know how they dealt with these experiences. Not that > the Buddha would react in any way similar to common everyday > people........ I'm sure it will pass, but I now find myself faintly > anxious when dear ones are a little late coming home or contacting, > and I have never been like that before. > And I thought, if Rahula had died before him, there may have been > some specific teachings concerning attachment, fear, loss, > vulnerability. (I had forgotten that Gautama left them on the day > Rahula was born. Not actually an option for most of us.) > I have found teachings like Bhaya-bherava Sutta [Is this that fear & > terror coming?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'Why do I just keep > waiting for fear? What if I were to subdue fear & terror in whatever > state they come?]; The Dhajagga Sutt ['For when you recollect the > Dhamma, monks, any fear, terror, or horripilation you may have will > be abandoned.'] ;The Akankha Sutta [If a monk would wish, 'May I > overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I > dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he > should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed > to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with > insight, and who frequents empty dwellings.]; the Abhaya > Sutta "Fearless", [The Blessed One said: "Brahmin, there are those > who, subject to death, are afraid & in terror of death. And there are > those who, subject to death, are not afraid or in terror of death.]; > And the Dhammapada 212-213 [From what's dear is born grief, from > what's dear is born fear. For one freed from what's dear there's no > grief -- so how fear? From what's loved is born grief, from what's > loved is born fear. For one freed from what's loved there's no > grief -- so how fear?] > I have also been thinking about 'Time' and what exactly it is, and > isn't....... > And other things in the Useless Questions Box like 'If I had heard of > the Teachings 25 years ago, would I/could I not have had children, > and therefore, been less subject to fear and attachment?' Not worth > answering I know - need to deal with what is, not what might have > been. Quite untidy inside this head of mine. :-) > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear All, > > > > > > > Can anyone tell me about Rahula, the Buddhas' son, his life and > what > > > eventually became of him? > > > > > > > In real brief, he was born on the day on which his father left the > > household life. When the Buddha visited Kapilavatthu for the first > time > > after his Enlightenment ...Rahula followed him and was ordained by > > Sariputta. When his parents heard of this they protested and the > Buddha > > agreed that in future no child could be ordained without parental > > permission. > > > > Many suttas were spoken to Rahula and he became an arahat. He was > declared > > foremost in being keen for training (sikkhaakaamaana.m). He also > features > > in many Jatakas as the Bodhisatta's son. There are 4 of his verses > in the > > Theragatha. > > > > I've just checked in the Pali dict of Proper Names as I couldn't > remember > > anything about his 'end'. "According to the Digha and Samyutta > > commentaries, Rahula predeceased the Buddha and even Sariputta, and > the > > place of his death is given as Tavatimsa. For twelve years he > never lay > > on a bed". > > > > Any special reason for the interest? Others may have other details > to add. > > > > Sarah > > ============================ > > 11608 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Rahula - the fetter Dear Rob, How kind you are....Your thoughtfulness is deeply appreciated. I will : 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' No need for concern Rob - I am well aware of (unlikely) emotional complications, and best of all I work with that 'irreverent mob' who are also well aware. {I tell them that just the thought of having to be taken care of by them, is incentive enough to stay perfectly balanced!} My daughter is grieving normally, and the renewal of old friendships that had been neglected before the accident, is bringing happiness. I loved the story of Ch'an Master Chao Chou and the General, I had heard it years ago but could never find it again...I can imagine the scene - there would have had to have been burning, terror and killing just to get to that point, and the completely unexpected reaction from Chao Chou would have been almost incomprehensible to the General. Though he would have understood and respected the unvarnished courage. (Or was it courage?......) Thanks Rob, much metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear Christine, > I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy and ploughing > through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the time this > approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it takes more > sophistication to really sense what is really required. > > For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed and for you to > feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then back to > Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous Masters, he started > teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery was invaded by > soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's quarters and stuck > a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are looking at > someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an eye?'. > Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are looking at someone > who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' The general > turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the monastery. > > My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when bad things happen > it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally upset. You are > probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and experiencing trauma. At > a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that and work it > through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take > care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then when you feel a > little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are in more easily > and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush anything anyway. > > So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware of what's > happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of them take years > to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the transformation of your > consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. Take it easy > on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. > > Best Regards, > Robert Ep. 11609 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 1:53am Subject: Paticcasamuppada VI Dear Group, A little more: The Paticcasamuppada overturns the idea that it is the same consciousness (vinnana, citta) 'that travels and traverses' the round of rebirths (M.38). Instead a series of discrete moments, eye-conciousness (cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose-consciouness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciouness, and mind consciousness arise; each different than the preceeding one. The person uninstructed in the Buddha's law assumes that he is consciousness (or any of the other khandas) or consciousness is apart from him, or is in him, or is not 'him'but'him' is something else. The wise disciple sees it differently. He sees whatever khanda arises as "a disease, a boil, a dart, as calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as no protection, as empty, as void, as having no core, as Mara's bait, as not self...."Patisambhidhimagga XXIX8 This is hard to comprehend and so even some who have heard the Buddha's teaching misunderstand and assume (perhaps in disguised ways) that avijja or formations or feelings or the other links on the path are something happening to 'them' or... (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact[comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna vainly searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut off at the root...."endquote. The Visuddhimagga notes about the development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83 Venerable Moliyaphagguna later left the order of monks (SN 12:32.) The commentary notes that this is because he had not attained any of the paths (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami , arahant) "for if he had attained them he would not have reverted to the lower life". So difficult is it to step out of this perversion of view (vipallasa). Thinking thinks "'I' have insight, 'I' see or 'I' am ignorant, 'I' don't see" not realising that the thinking is occuring without any agent. There is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the conditions of the dependent origination itself. It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary for communication even when discussing Dhamma. Thus the Buddha and arahants use them too; but without any misconceptions that they refer to something real. "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. For us, on the otherhand, it may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me' thinking or speaking we are caught in the whirl of view. These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and if satipatthana is correctly developed. It is natural enough, having confidence in the sublime Dhamma of the Buddha, that one wishes to bring the round to a quick halt: "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." Mahasatipatthana sutta. robert 11610 From: egberdina Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 2:44am Subject: Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Christine, Thank you for that wonderfully written post. You communicate so well. I accept what you say about the intent of people on this list without hesitation. The pickings are slim out there in Internet Buddhist Land, and certainly this here place is the cream of the crop. Thanks again Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Good to see you have lifted the nose from the grindstone for long > enough to post, nice to 'read' you. Regarding your comment > <<<'Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a > dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear?'>>> One of the things I > admire about you Herman is that you call a spade a spade, you don't > say anything just to court popularity, and no-one need ever fear that > you will express different opinions away from them than you would to > their face....True blue. I was going to send you some John Williamson > lyrics (when I thought you were too busy to post), - always a risk - > one either loves him or hates him - 'don't say you've gone, say > you've knocked off for a smoko and you'll be back later on....' > > Just a personal comment (i.e. read 'not a scrap of scholarship in > it' - I'll leave that to others): When I came to this List, I > became conscious for the first time that buddhists didn't come with > a 'one size fits all' practice system. I knew they mostly held to the > same truth and that they simply expressed this belief in different > ways. But I thought Meditation and the form that meditation practice > took was a universally agreed 'common sense'. ( Actually, I didn't > even think about it - it just 'was' - hadn't it been done this way > for centuries and by vast majorities?... uh-oh...) I could cope > quite well with differing views when 'those who were different' were > any part of the rich Mahayana tradition, but found it unsettling when > they were Theravadins - and conservative Theravadins at that. I > realised I had fallen in with a group where there were some who > didn't agree that what I thought (and had been taught) was the > only way to practise, was so. I am curious by nature > (accumulations?), but do not necessarily have a well-ordered or > disciplined mind, tending more to ride the raft of my feelings. I am > well aware that not having a disciplined mind initially makes me an > easy victim of commonly held views and confidently presented methods > of practice. But, like most Australians, an innate cynicism > (accumulations?) makes me take a second and third look. > So - like playing poker, I sat in for a few hands to size up these > people, confident that I'd pick the flaw in their game(reasoning and > method), and come out a winner. Haven't quite managed to pick the > flaw, yet, but don't feel I'm losing.... > > What all that rambling is meant to say is that rather than there > being even a mild form of dissuasion from practice of jhana on this > list, there is, on the contrary, an acceptance of difference not seen > on the other Theravadin lists, and the reasoned discussion of, and > respect for, all views. This doesn't have to mean agreement. > As a novice buddhist, I have not experienced any attempt to dissuade > me from, or persuade me towards, any form of practice by members of > this dsg list. I feel warmly held and supported, but not > constrained...... Encouragement is different to persuasion......I > have simply been given encouragement to keep considering, reflecting > and studying. I have been encouraged to keep questioning anything > stated by any list member, and to check everything against the > Buddhas' teachings...even in Bangkok....and to be gentle with myself > and not to desire instant results. And most important for me, no- one > has ever made feel that any question is too stupid to be asked > (though I would perfectly understand if there was a certain mild > exasperation evident when I request repetitive answers.) > > Indeed, on other lists I have been horrified to see professed > buddhists use the full armoury of exclusion, sarcasm, malicious, > derisive humour, personal denigration, unremitting harrassment, > verbal gang attack by real and virtual identities against > individuals who simply hold and express different views on what > practice should be. I have unbounded admiration for the courage and > faith of those who can tolerate and not be beaten down by such > sustained attacks.(and I have 'another' sort of unbounded emotion for > the attackers.) But it was these vocal 'attackers' - the majority - > so frequently, hypocritically and self-righteously trumpeting their > own virtues, commitment and good motives, denying any ill-will, and > congratulating those who were 'like' them, who filled me with such > revulsion, that if their behaviour was the fruit of promoting > formal sitting meditation and practise of jhana, then I wanted to > take a look at every (ANY other) point of view. I know that just > writing the above paragraph reveals so much about my own kilesas, > and 'expectations' has had a round or two of its own recently as > well. Lucky you all knew about my defilements anyway... :-). > > Herman, I feel no concern that anything other than tolerance and > respect regarding sincerely held beliefs will be met with on this > list. Discussion, giving and receiving teaching and courteous > respectful debate are part of the joys I find here. > Goodness! This was going to be just one paragraph. Hope you've made > it this far....... > > metta, > Christine > -- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "egberdina" wrote: > > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > > tradition. > > > > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the > contemplative > > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > > institution. And what fruit does this bear? > > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein > > wrote: 11611 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" But I found the last two verses you quote captivating .......and you end with etc! Can you provide a link, or other direction please? ------ Dear Christine The quotes come from something under the big title of "The commentary on THE GREAT PERFECTION: THE NATURE OF MIND, THE EASER OF WEARINESS called the Great Chariot" by the Tibetan Master Longchenpa (around 13th century, I think, Nyingma School) A massive and in parts very difficult treatise following the topics used in Lam-Rim meditation (which cover the full set of topics in the Mahayana path). The meditation on death and impermanence is the 2nd topic, following the meditation on the "precious human life". The first makes you feel great - "oh, boy! this is wonderful! am I really lucky !". Then comes the second topic (examining all the aspects of death and impermanance in great detail) putting a damper on it all. I like reading these first two chapters (the only ones I more or less understand) quite often - as a "morale booster" (?) The treatise in available on line at: http://www.geocities.com/gileht/#Longchenpa (interesting because the webmaster adds all sorts of additional material to the original text, including Suttas - he also uses different fonts and colours to enhance different parts of the text) [...for those with "M" leanings, the 2-3 websites by Gileht have a lot of interesting material http://www.geocities.com/gileht/ ] The full text in a single zip file (without additions) is at: http://www.mountaindev.com/OpenTibetanBuddhistTexts.html ---------------- And perhaps tell me what the 'three levels' and the 'three worlds' are? A simplistic heaven, earth, hell model of existence perhaps? -------------- "Three levels" here refors to earth, air and oceans. The "three worlds" are the three realms of samsaric existence: desire (where we all are), form and formless (where jahna adepts may end up). A useful on-line glossary for terms (especially those used in "M" that are not in the Pali glossaries): "Buddhism A to Z" by Ron Rpstein : http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/BuddhistDict/BDIntro.htm ----------- I'm not yet familiar with Tibetan teachings, always seemed too difficult to start........ ------------- Same here. I followed some basic courses (on Lam-Rim) because it's the only local group - but it all seemed too "ornate" for my accumulations (and I have dosa towards red carpets!) - so after a few years I was more than ready for a plain wall and Zen ! (now I've gone the full circle and I'm back at the beginning - 4NT etc. - he-he-he-he !) (more comments on contemplation of death follow) Best wishes Lucy 11612 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Christine, Robert K, all Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's comments about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death is kept well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not shown, not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, but it's all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill in the gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to prepare for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as birth), b) cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts of things, really! I like what Christine writes: > As a result of the whole world being so > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people And that's probably a fatal surprise ! I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), contemplation on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) attachments. In the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us that it's coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). Perhaps it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable problems with lust ? I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of death in the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: ------------- Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the Mountains (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only) <> ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what should be done?" "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great king, what should be done?" <> "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, further said this: Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. Here elephant troops can hold no ground, nor can chariots or infantry, nor can a battle of wits or wealth win out. So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. One who practices the Dhamma in thought, word, & deed, receives praise here on earth and after death rejoices in heaven. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html --------------------- I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But that would be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. Best wishes Lucy 11613 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) (to John) Dear Layman John So nice to see you here ! How have you been keeping? Best wishes Lucy 11614 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 7:02am Subject: India Ch 5, no. 5 India Ch 5, no 5 When we meet other people and we talk to them, we forget that, in the ultimate sense, there is nobody, that we are alone with nåma and rúpa. If we do not know the characteristic that appears we think of this or that person. There must be citta that experiences an object. Colour appears, thus there must be a citta that is seeing. Visible object or colour is the only rúpa that is visible, that can be seen. Seeing sees for an extremely short moment and then it is gone, and also visible object falls away, nothing remains. When we look at people they seem to last, and this is because we think for a long time of shape and form of people and of things. There are many different moments of thinking and these fall away. Thinking is a paramattha dhamma, but the concepts that are the objects of thinking are not paramattha dhammas. We can learn to discern when we are in the world of concepts and when in the world of paramattha dhammas. We cannot immediately have right understanding of paramattha dhammas, but we can begin to develop it. I asked Acharn Sujin why, in particular, visible object seems to appear for a long time. She answered: ³It seems to appear for a long time, but when there is more understanding of it, it will appear more shortly. Only one kind of rúpa can be seen. When we are thinking of shape and form, it is remembrance of a concept, different from visible object. There is thinking and remembrance of what is seen. Other rúpas such as hardness or sound do not interest us as much as visible object.² The Buddha has taught us the truth of paramattha dhammas he had realized when he attained enlightenment, and that is why we can develop today right understanding of all phenomena of our life. From the following Sutta we can learn that the Dhamma is our true refuge when we see the five khandhas 1 , conditioned nåma and rúpa, as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå, non-self. This understanding is developed through satipatthåna. We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, The First Fifty, Ch 5, On Being an Island to oneself 2 ) that the Buddha said: Monks, be islands to yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands to themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things: ³What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?² Here, monks the uninstructed worldling... regards the body as self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs in this man¹s body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise. (similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness.) But seeing the body¹s impermanence, its changeability, its waning, its ceasing, he says, ³formerly as well as now, all bodies were impermanent and unsatisfacory, and subject to change.² Thus, seeing this as it really is, with perfect insight, he abandons all sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not worried at their abandonment, but unworried lives at ease, and thus living at ease he is said to be ³assuredly delivered.² (Similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness.) ***** Footnote 1. The five khandhas are: rúpakkhandha, physical phenomena; vedanåkkhandha, feelings; saññåkkhandha, remembrance or perception; sankhårakkhandha, mental formations including all cetasikas except feeling and remembrance; viññånakkhandha, consciousness. 2. I used the translation by M O¹ C. Walshe, Wheel Publication No. 318-321. ***** 11615 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:28am Subject: Sujin Boriharnwannaket Greetings dsg, Could someone write a short biography of Khun Sujin and put it in the files. I think this would help people understand where you are coming from. I am particularly interested in did she invent this "study-only" path or was it handed down from someone else. Also, what is "the Foundation"? Who founded it, what is its purpose, what is Khun Sujin's association with it? Her message seems to be aimed mostly at Thai householders but is apparently attracting an international audience as well; could you expand on this? Does she speak english? What does "khun" mean? Maybe someone else would like to add some questions. thanks, Larry 11616 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear All, Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, is much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the West (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point in knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or be able to influence it in any way? And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud the mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the Precepts, I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want to die' manual. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Dear Christine, Robert K, all > > Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's comments > about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death is kept > well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not shown, > not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, but it's > all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill in the > gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to prepare > for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as birth), b) > cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts of > things, really! > > I like what Christine writes: > > As a result of the whole world being so > > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people > > And that's probably a fatal surprise ! > > I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), contemplation > on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) attachments. In > the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us that it's > coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). Perhaps > it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need > reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable problems with > lust ? > > I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of death in > the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: > > ------------- > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the Mountains > (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only) > > <> > ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and reliable, > were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it please > your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I saw a > great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing all living > beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a second > man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to come to > you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from the south > and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should know that > I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the clouds, > coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think should > be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a > terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard to > obtain -- what should be done?" > > "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible destruction of > human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else should > be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious > deeds?" > > "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death > are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great > king, what should be done?" > <> > "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are rolling > in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, > skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- Gone, the > Teacher, further said this: > > Like massive boulders, > mountains pressing against the sky, > moving in from all sides, > crushing the four directions, > so aging and death > come rolling over living beings: > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > They spare nothing. > They trample everything. > Here elephant troops can hold no ground, > nor can chariots or infantry, > nor can a battle of wits > or wealth win out. > > So a wise person, > seeing his own good, > steadfast, secures confidence > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > > One who practices the Dhamma > in thought, word, & deed, > receives praise here on earth > and after death rejoices in heaven. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html > --------------------- > > I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But that would > be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. > > Best wishes > Lucy 11617 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:40am Subject: A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, all - I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that has made me happy. For a year or so, I had been visiting, pretty much once every week, with a bhikkhu at a Thai monastery about 45 minutes from my home. He is a lovely man! We never did much ... just talked a bit (his English is limited) and meditated together. On the surface it would seem that I didn't gain much from these visits. But in fact I gained greatly just by being around him, experiencing his calm, joy, and sweetness. Last June he left for Thailand for what was intended to be a 3-month period of intense meditation practice, and also for surgery. After about 2 months I called the Wat and was told that he would yet be away for 3 more months. Two months after that I called again and was told the same story. Then I just held off calling. Months more went by without my calling. After a time, I assumed that he had already been back for a good while, and I skipped calling out of embarrassment at not having kept in touch. (Stupid! Yes, I know. In fact, it turns out that he was away a total of 5 months, having returned last November.) Recently I've been intending to call the Wat, but still putting it off. But today, "my" monk called me! As sweet, as lovely, over the phone as ever, his smile and twinkling eyes audible in his voice, and with not a word about my not having kept in touch, but only with questions as to how I and my family have been, and an invitation for me to come see him again! It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have that in our lives. With metta, Howard P.S. I'm visiting the venerable next Sunday. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11618 From: Victor Yu Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi Howard, Thanks for sharing the joy. Regards, Victor > Hi, all - > > I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that > has made me happy. > For a year or so, I had been visiting, pretty much once every week, > with a bhikkhu at a Thai monastery about 45 minutes from my home. He is a > lovely man! We never did much ... just talked a bit (his English is limited) > and meditated together. On the surface it would seem that I didn't gain much > from these visits. But in fact I gained greatly just by being around him, > experiencing his calm, joy, and sweetness. > Last June he left for Thailand for what was intended to be a 3-month > period of intense meditation practice, and also for surgery. After about 2 > months I called the Wat and was told that he would yet be away for 3 more > months. Two months after that I called again and was told the same story. > Then I just held off calling. Months more went by without my calling. After a > time, I assumed that he had already been back for a good while, and I skipped > calling out of embarrassment at not having kept in touch. (Stupid! Yes, I > know. In fact, it turns out that he was away a total of 5 months, having > returned last November.) Recently I've been intending to call the Wat, but > still putting it off. But today, "my" monk called me! As sweet, as lovely, > over the phone as ever, his smile and twinkling eyes audible in his voice, > and with not a word about my not having kept in touch, but only with > questions as to how I and my family have been, and an invitation for me to > come see him again! > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have that > in our lives. > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. I'm visiting the venerable next Sunday. 11619 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death --- Dear Christine, I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used to find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to great profit. The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death moment (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical but after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well with insight into anatta as that gives fearlessness to contemplating death (no one to die). metta robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear All, > > Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me > cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, > inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, is > much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the > supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. > > One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very > important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some > influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My > understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the West > (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart > attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over > bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point in > knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make > up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or be > able to influence it in any way? > > And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an > approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things > known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, > breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud the > mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But > with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the Precepts, > I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely > unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has > experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want > to die' manual. > > metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > Dear Christine, Robert K, all > > > > Been thinking about the contemplation of death and Christine's > comments > > about "sanitised death" in modern society...It's so true that death > is kept > > well hidden from our view in the world most of us live in. It's not > shown, > > not seen, rarely spoken of ... I live next to a small graveyard, > but it's > > all too pretty and quaint, death doesn't show - you've got to fill > in the > > gaps with your imagination --- Seems a missed opportunity a) to > prepare > > for the most natural event in the world (exactly as common as > birth), b) > > cultivate renunciation, c) cherish the present moment --- all sorts > of > > things, really! > > > > I like what Christine writes: > > > As a result of the whole world being so > > > death-denying, it mostly happens to very surprised people > > > > And that's probably a fatal surprise ! > > > > I noticed that in the Pali comms that I've read (not many), > contemplation > > on death is often used as an antidote to (usually lustful) > attachments. In > > the Tibetan teachings it's more with the intention to remind us > that it's > > coming and move one to Dharma practice (the craving thing again). > Perhaps > > it's because a lot of the Pali comms. are for monks who don't need > > reminding about impermanence but may still have considerable > problems with > > lust ? > > > > I found one sutta where the Buddha teaches the contemplation of > death in > > the same sense as the normal Tibetan teachings: > > > > ------------- > > Samyutta Nikaya III.25 - Pabbatopama Sutta - The Simile of the > Mountains > > (Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only) > > > > <> > > ""What do you think, great king? Suppose a man, trustworthy and > reliable, > > were to come to you from the east and on arrival would say: 'If it > please > > your majesty, you should know that I come from the east. There I > saw a > > great mountain, as high as the clouds, coming this way, crushing > all living > > beings [in its path]. Do whatever you think should be done.' Then a > second > > man were to come to you from the west... Then a third man were to > come to > > you from the north... Then a fourth man were to come to you from > the south > > and on arrival would say: 'If it please your majesty, you should > know that > > I come from the south. There I saw a great mountain, as high as the > clouds, > > coming this way, crushing all living beings. Do whatever you think > should > > be done.' If, your majesty, such a great peril should arise, such a > > terrible destruction of human life -- the human state being so hard > to > > obtain -- what should be done?" > > > > "If, lord, such a great peril should arise, such a terrible > destruction of > > human life -- the human state being so hard to obtain -- what else > should > > be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, > meritorious > > deeds?" > > > > "I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and > death > > are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, > great > > king, what should be done?" > > <> > > "So it is, great king! So it is, great king! As aging and death are > rolling > > in on you, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right > conduct, > > skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?" > > > > That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well- > Gone, the > > Teacher, further said this: > > > > Like massive boulders, > > mountains pressing against the sky, > > moving in from all sides, > > crushing the four directions, > > so aging and death > > come rolling over living beings: > > noble warriors, priests, merchants, > > workers, outcastes, & scavengers. > > They spare nothing. > > They trample everything. > > Here elephant troops can hold no ground, > > nor can chariots or infantry, > > nor can a battle of wits > > or wealth win out. > > > > So a wise person, > > seeing his own good, > > steadfast, secures confidence > > in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. > > > > One who practices the Dhamma > > in thought, word, & deed, > > receives praise here on earth > > and after death rejoices in heaven. " > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.html > > --------------------- > > > > I suppose the "rejoices in heaven" is the mundane teaching. But > that would > > be a better preparation than sanitation and denial. > > > > Best wishes > > Lucy 11620 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 4:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada VI Nice piece Robert, clear and thorough. Good food, as Nina would say. Larry 11621 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya) Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Greetings from me too! Endorsing Larry's request, I would appreciate if one could also add where & how to get to the Foundation. I've been to Thailand on official business & may be again. Sumane Rathnasuriya 11622 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings dsg, > > Could someone write a short biography of Khun Sujin and put it in the > files. This would be a good idea. I’m not sure if Nina or anyone else has written or translated one before. Anyway I’ll just put a few quick comments in here first . >I think this would help people understand where you are coming > from. I am particularly interested in did she invent this "study-only" > path or was it handed down from someone else. As I recall, K.Sujin’s teacher was Ajahn Naeb, a well-known Thai Abhidhamma and Meditation teacher. I believe these were taught as aseparate study and practice, but K.Sujin understood the abhidhamma was about practice itself or more precisely, about understanding realities in daily life itself rather than as an intellectual study divorced from practice. K.Sujin is now in her 70s (but very youthful for her age) and lives with a sister and family. >Also, what is "the > Foundation"? For 30years or so, K.Sujin has been giving regular lectures (until quite recently at a temple in Bkk) and these have been recorded and are relayed on the radio within Thailand and neighbouring countries such as Cambodia and Laos and also Mayalsia, I believe. The Foundation is the ‘organisation’ which has developed around these activities. A couple of yrs ago a ‘centre’ was built on some donated land in Bangkok and this is where K.Sujin and other teachers (students of hers) now teach. Usually, when the Foundation is being referred to now, it is this centre. >Who founded it, what is its purpose, what is Khun Sujin's > association with it? The Foundation (like most organisations) has a committee and K.Sujin is the main teacher. The purpose is simply to help people understand the Buddha’s teachings. She has always encouraged everyone to read the texts for themselves and has played a key role in encouraging the translation of the commentaries into Thai (very few of these existed when she started teaching). They now follow the sutta translations in print. >Her message seems to be aimed mostly at Thai > householders but is apparently attracting an international audience as > well; could you expand on this? She is always happy to help anyone regardless of nationality or status. However, as she ‘speaks’ rather than ‘writes’ by habit, inevitably more Thais will hear her. Last time we were in Bkk, I mentioned at lunch that her name was becoming quite well-known by internet and Nina’s books now. She really wasn’t interested at all. If she has a chance to help right now, she’s glad to do so. That’s all. Once I remember spending weeks staying in her house, sharing her bedroom and quite unable to return any of the hospitality. When I mentioned it, she’d just say sincerely “Khun Sarah, your interest in dhamma is the best gift”. She never asks or hints for anything else and if the interest doesn’t continue, she also quite understands. Perhaps some of us on dsg feel that we’ve been very fortunate to have had some of the opportunites we have had to listen to her over many years and as a result would be very glad to share what we can with others. I’m sure this is Nina’s main motivation for writing so profusely and generously making any materials available to anyone. > Does she speak english? yes, though not perfectly...I’ve never had any communication difficulty. She was university educated and when Jon first knew her, she was running a Thai language school too. So he learnt Thai as well as dhamma from her. >What does "khun" > mean? Mr, Mrs, Miss...in Thai everyone addresses everyone else by Khun + first name, hence ‘Khun Sarah’ above. Most Thais address her more respectfully by ‘Ajahn Sujin’ where ‘Ajahn” is a title for a teacher or even more respectfully still by ‘Tan Ajahn’. We all have our habits. She will always say she doesn’t mind at all how anyone addresses her and interest in the dhamma is the greatest respect. When she visited me in England, she asked everyone to simply call her ‘Sujin’ (which means well-spoken, I believe). > Maybe someone else would like to add some questions. Sumane just asked how to get to the Foundation. Sumane, it’s quite tricky the first time (on Thonburi side - old Bangkok). The best thing is if you’re going to Bkk to let Sukin (not to be confused with Sujin) know and he’ll give you the details or let us know and we’ll be happy to give details. They may have these on the new Foundation website being prepared, but I still can’t access this from my mac computer. To try, I think this is the link: http://www.buddhadhamma.com Just a note on your comment about ‘where you are coming from’ addressed to dsg....Really I think the 200 members (including yourself) have all come from different directions via different routes and all make up dsg. A small number of us only have studied with K.Sujin and we may have little in common with each other in other respects. There really isn’t any ‘institution’ here (to coin a Herman term) and like Christine, I’ve always been encouraged to question and test anything I hear.There has never been any suggestion of following any ritual or set format or idea of any kind. Hope this helps a little. Pls ask anything else and perhaps someone will correct me if I've got any details wrong. Sarah ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11623 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Good friend in dhamma (was: Practice, beings and contact) --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Both tradition and instinct are specifically disclaimed by the Buddha in > the Kalamas sutta as a proper basis for judging whether something is the > true dhamma. Thanks, Jon. Robert Ep. 11624 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Dear Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have > that > in our lives. Many thanks for sharing this note....perhaps it is of great import: the ability to appreciate and rejoice in 'genuine goodness' when we are fortunate to have the chance. How many opportunities do we 'miss' in a day? Many, in my case. It sounds as though he'll also welcome the chance to share your company too, Howard. I hope he's well and you have apleasant and wise time together. ********** Here is a link to a wheel publication which includes the Sivaka Sutta you mentioned. I'd be grateful if you'd repeat your point about kamma and causes as I no longer have your original post to hand (just if you feel inclined to do so, of course). Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Contemplation of Feeling The Discourse-Grouping on the Feelings (Vedana-Samyutta) Translated from the Pali, with an Introduction by Nyanaponika Thera The Wheel Publication No. 303/304 SL ISSN 0049-7541 21. Sivaka Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." ====================================================== 11625 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Christine, > > Thank you for that wonderfully written post. You communicate so well. Agreed and appreciated by us all, I'm sure. > I accept what you say about the intent of people on this list without > hesitation. The pickings are slim out there in Internet Buddhist > Land, and certainly this here place is the cream of the crop. Praise indeed, Herman and your comments and 'wake-up-calls' are an essential spice (‘Variety’ and all that..)in the mixture, just like Erik's chilis;-) I never sent my best wishes to add to others' for your new business. Sincerely hope it goes well and if this dhamma 'family' (doesn't that sound friendlier than 'institution'?;-)) can give you any support over the bumps, just let us know. Meanwhile, look forward to your weather reports whenever we become too complacent or equanimous;-) Actually, this is just what China used to do (pre 1997) whenever they objected or wished to comment on what the British govt was proposing......’stormy weather in Hong Kong...’ and so on. Sarah P.S. Just remembered that I intended to quote the following extract on ‘motion’ from Nina’s Rupas’ when we were last talking (with Rob Ep too, I believe). You may find it interesting/useful. Sorry for the delay. (Howard, I think it also relates well to the discussions on posture): http://www.dhammastudy.com/Rupas1.html ********** “As to the Element of Wind (in Pali: vayo dhatu) or motion, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 93) defines it as follows (See also Dhammasangani § 648 and Atthasalini II, Book II, Ch III, 332.): ... The air element (wind) has the characteristic of distending. Its function is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. We may believe that we can see motion of objects but the rupa which is motion cannot be seen. What we mean by motion as we express it in conventional language is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We can conclude that something has moved because there are different moments of seeing and thinking, and there is association of these different experiences, but that is not the experience of the rupa which is motion. This rupa can be directly experienced through the bodysense. When we touch a body or an object which has a certain resilience, the characteristic of motion or pressure may present itself. These are characteristics of the element of wind. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. As we read in the definition, the function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is manifested as conveying. It is, for example, a condition for the movement of the limbs of the body. However, we should not confuse pictorial ideas with the direct experience of this rupa through the bodysense. The element of wind or motion arises with all kinds of materiality, both of the body and outside the body. There is also motion with dead matter, such as a pot. It performs its function so that the pot holds its shape and does not collapse. Sariputta explained about the internal element of motion: ... And what, your reverences, is the internal element of motion? Whatever is motion, wind, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as winds going upwards, winds going downwards, winds in the abdomen, winds in the belly, winds that shoot across the several limbs, in-breathing, out-breathing, or whatever other thing is motion, wind, is internal.... We may notice pressure inside the body. When its characteristic appears it can be known as only a rupa which is conditioned. As to the words of the sutta, “winds that shoot across the several limbs”, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 37) explains that these are: “winds (forces) that produce flexing, extending, etc., and are distributed over the limbs and the whole body by means of the network of veins (nerves)”. The element of wind plays its specific role in the strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse, and assumes different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending of the limbs. While we are bending or stretching our arms and legs the element of wind may appear as motion or pressure. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 92): The air element that courses through all the limbs and has the characteristic of moving and distending, being founded upon earth, held together by water, and maintained by fire, distends this body. And this body, being distended by the latter kind of air, does not collapse, but stands erect, and being propelled by the other (motile) air, it shows intimation, and it flexes and extends and it wriggles the hands and feet, doing so in the postures comprising walking, standing, sitting and lying down. So this mechanism of elements carries on like a magic trick, deceiving foolish people with the male and female sex and so on. We are deceived and infatuated by the outward appearance of a man or a woman and we forget that this body is a “mechanism of elements” and that it flexes and wriggles hands and feet because of conditions. ” ================================================= 11626 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) Dear Layman John, --- johnrloganis wrote: > Christine, > Thank you for your very clear elaboration. > > I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered > why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the > Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, > the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. > > It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the > Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. > > Thank you again, > Layman John > > > "One must not think that these kilesas are little things, which are > > just tacked onto oneself somehow." > Thanks to both of you for your helpful reminders......Yes, the kilesas are so very deep-rooted and I think it's because of one of these kilesa in particular (wrong view) that there's an idea of 'oneself' with kilesa 'tacked' on.....Personally, I find it more encouraging to know they are so deep-rooted and 'not-self' (and therefore of no surprise when they arise) than the reverse view that having studied the basic principles of dhamma, we should be more equanimous in daily life. I don't think we've heard from you before, though obviously you already have good friends like Lucy;-) If we can encourage you, anytime, to say a little more about yourself or interest in the Dhamma, that would be great. This is optional of course;-) Sarah ================================ 11627 From: Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/4/02 12:40:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > It is such a joy to experience genuine goodness! May we all have > > that > > in our lives. > > Many thanks for sharing this note....perhaps it is of great import: the > ability to appreciate and rejoice in 'genuine goodness' when we are > fortunate to have the chance. How many opportunities do we 'miss' in a > day? Many, in my case. > > It sounds as though he'll also welcome the chance to share your company > too, Howard. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems so. ------------------------------------------------------------ I hope he's well and you have apleasant and wise time> > together. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks a lot, Sarah. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > ********** > Here is a link to a wheel publication which includes the Sivaka Sutta you > mentioned. I'd be grateful if you'd repeat your point about kamma and > causes as I no longer have your original post to hand (just if you feel > inclined to do so, of course). > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are referring to. Could you say a bit more? ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11628 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear All, I would like to add some of the suttas I find most helpful with regard to reflection on death. (As they are all quite short, hopefully the post won’t run to more than 3 or 4 pages;-). When I hear reminders about death, they remind me how ‘everything is burning’ as the Buddha reminds the housand monks who were formerly the ‘matted-hair ascetics’: ********** The Book of Discipline (IV, Mahavagga, I, The Great Section, 21)* "Monks, everything is burning. And what, monks, is everything that is burning? The eye, monks, is burning, visible objects are burning, seeing-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, in other words the feeling which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair. The ear... sounds...the nose...odours... the tongue... tastes... the body... tangible objects... the mind... mental states... mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, in other words the feeling which arises through mind-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair. Seeing this, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards the eye and he disregards visible objects and he disregards seeing-consciousness and he disregards eye-contact, in other words the feeling which arises from eye-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too he disregards. And he disregards the ear... sounds... the nose... odours... the tongue... tastes...the body... tangible objects... the mind... mental states... mind-consciousness... mind-contact, in other words the feeling that arises from mind-contact, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too he disregards; disregarding, he is dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to be, "I am freed", and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such." And while this discourse was being uttered, the minds of these thousand monks were freed from the cankers without grasping." ********** Furthermore, I can never be reminded of the following sutta and the value of reflection and mindfulness on death enough: ********** "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Sixes, Ch II, 9, Mindfulness of Death)* " "Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I to live but one day and night, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One , much would be done by me-- thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become". And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness become." "How so, monk?" "Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I to live for a day only, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me...." And another said: "Such is my thought: Were I to live long enough to eat one alms-meal..." And another: "... to munch and swallow four or five morsels..." And another: "... to munch and swallow only one morsel..." And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness of death become." "How so, monk?" "Lord, such is my thought: Were I to live long enough to breathe in after breathing out, or to breathe out after breathing in, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me-- thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become." And when he had thus spoken, the Exalted Onbe said to the monks: "Monks, the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: 'Were I to live but one day and night and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One ...' or he who thinks thus: 'Were I to live for a day only ...' or ' long enough to eat one almsmeal...' or "long enough to munch and swallow four or five morsels ..., and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me'- those monks are said to live indolently; slackly they make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. But the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: 'Were I to live long enough to munch and swallow one morsel...'; and he who thinks thus: 'Were I to live long enough to breathe in after breathing out, or to breathe out after breathing in, and I were to ponder over the word of the Exalted One, much would be done by me'- those monks are said to live earnestly; keenly they make mindfulness become for the destruction of the cankers. Wherefore, monks, train yourselves thus: We will live earnestly; keenly will we make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. Train yourselves thus, monks." " ********** Finally, the following Suttas form Sutta Nipata are the ones that I found most helpful to read over and over and reflect on when my father died nearly 20yrs ago and which are still so full of potent reminders for me. ********** http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3-08a.html Sutta Nipata III.8, -- vv. 574-593 Salla Sutta (The Arrow) (WH 82), translated by John D. Ireland ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is (the breaking up) of life. "The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to slaughter. "In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world. You do not know the path by which they came or departed. Not seeing either end you lament in vain. If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it. Only a fool would harm himself. Yet through weeping and sorrowing the mind does not become calm, but still more suffering is produced, the body is harmed and one becomes lean and pale, one merely hurts oneself. One cannot protect a departed one (peta) by that means. To grieve is in vain. "By not abandoning sorrow a being simply undergoes more suffering. Bewailing the dead he comes under the sway of sorrow. See other men faring according to their deeds! Hence beings tremble here with fear when they come into the power of death. Whatever they imagine, it (turns out) quite different from that. This is the sort of disappointment that exists. Look at the nature of the world! If a man lives for a hundred years, or even more, finally, he is separated from his circle of relatives and gives up his life in the end. Therefore, having listened to the Arahant,[1] one should give up lamenting. Seeing a dead body, one should know, "He will not be met by me again." As the fire in a burning house is extinguished with water, so a wise, discriminating, learned and sensible man should quickly drive away the sorrow that arises, as the wind (blows off) a piece of cotton. He who seeks happiness should withdraw the arrow: his own lamentations, longings and grief. "With the arrow withdrawn, unattached, he would attain to peace of mind; and when all sorrow has been transcended he is sorrow-free and has realized Nibbana. " ********* http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-06a.html Sutta Nipata IV.6 Jara Sutta (On Decay)-- vv. 804-813 (WH 82), ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Short indeed is this life, this side of a hundred years one dies; whoever lives long even he dies from old age. People grieve for things they are attached to, yet there exist no permanent possessions but just a state of (constant) separation. Seeing this one should no longer live the household life. That which a man imagines to be his will disappear at death. Knowing this a wise man will have no attachment (to anything). "As a man awakened from sleep no longer sees what happened in his dream, similarly one does not see a loved one who is dead. Those people who were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only their names remain when they have passed away. Those greedy for objects of attachment do not abandon sorrow, grief and avarice, but sages having got rid of possessions, live perceiving security. For a bhikkhu with a detached mind, living in a secluded dwelling, it is right, they say, that he no longer shows himself in the abodes (of existence). "A sage who is completely independent does not make close friends or enemies. In him sorrow and selfishness do not stay, like water on a lotus leaf. As a lotus is not wetted by water, so a sage is not affected by what is seen or heard, nor by what is perceived by the other senses. A wise man is not deluded by what is perceived by the senses. He does not expect purity by any other way.He is neither pleased nor is he repelled (by the six sense-objects)." ********** Best wishes, Sarah .......... * The first two suttas can be read with more discussion by Nina in “Introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures’ which is where I copied these translations from. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ibs1.html ====================================================== 11629 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada VI Dear Robert, I am grateful for your continuing posts on Paticcasamuppada.....I take what learning I can from them (relative to my ability to understand). I have to say that I feel a tiny bit discouraged, and have a certain sympathy for Moliyaphagguna - A Bhikkhu whose life was dedicated to following the Path. I think that if those born in the same time frame as a Buddha + born in geographical proximity + understanding the language in which the Buddha spoke + being in the presence of a teaching Buddha still fail to understand ...... well, the odds seem somewhat stacked against those of lesser talent, thousands of years from the presence of a teaching Buddha, a couple of translations away from the original language...and already 'in the lower life'..... And was Moliyaphagguna really 'vainly searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada'? Perhaps he was merely searching for an explanation he could understand. Forget about whether anything is reborn, or whether everything is blotted out at death.......No need for an 'eternalist/annihilationist debate - it would be enough to know "If no self - then how are the khandas organised during their lifetime into acting coherently and purposefully?" - a managerial khanda, but don't call it self? You say: "It may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me thinking or speaking we are caught in the whirl of view." I would agree that it is easy enough to say 'There is no self' ..... It is much easier to play the game and pretend understanding than to constantly seek clarification and understanding of the same old topics. And maybe throw formal meditation in as well - go to a few retreats - at least I could feel I was 'in control' of some facet, and 'doing something'....with the side benefit of basking in the warm glow of calm and serenity, not to mention appoval from the majority.......So - in actual fact, it is 'easier' to give up questioning altogether and just 'have faith'. <<<'These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and if satifpatthana is correctly developed.'>>> If only it were possible to state exactly how satipatthana is correctly developed....Study and contact with Admirable Friends? Study, well, O.K. I'm doing that to the best of my ability.....but who knows if it is helping or hindering.......Just filling my head with words perhaps, and no filter on what ideas I take up from it....... I would not have liked my children to have done unsupervised, unstructured, self-chosen study to prepare them for one life - and the stakes here are allegedly much higher. Admirable Friends ?, I have to say I've been lucky here......Though a more considerate group would have managed to live closer :-) Do I seem to be dwelling in self-pity?? That must mean it's Monday...... :-) Yes, I do know that it is of inestimable value to be alive while the Teachings are still intact and available. But what use is availability without understanding...... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Group, > A little more: > The Paticcasamuppada overturns the idea that it is the same consciousness > (vinnana, citta) 'that travels and traverses' the round of rebirths > (M.38). Instead a series of discrete moments, eye-conciousness > (cakkhu-vinnana), ear-consciousness, nose-consciouness, > tongue-consciousness, body-consciouness, and mind consciousness arise; > each different than the preceeding one. The person uninstructed in the > Buddha's law assumes that he is consciousness (or any of the other > khandas) or consciousness is apart from him, or is in him, or is not > 'him'but'him' is something else. The wise disciple sees it differently. He > sees whatever khanda arises as "a disease, a boil, a dart, as calamity, as > an affliction, as alien, as no protection, as empty, as void, as having no > core, as Mara's bait, as not self...."Patisambhidhimagga XXIX8 > This is hard to comprehend and so even some who have heard the Buddha's > teaching misunderstand and assume (perhaps in disguised ways) that avijja > or formations or feelings or the other links on the path are something > happening to 'them' or... > (Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the > valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes to > be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna vainly searching > for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be > 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has > sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the > eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are > volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional > formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there > are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut > off at the root...."endquote. The Visuddhimagga notes about the > development of vipassana: "there is no removal of false view in one who > takes it thus "I see with insight, my insight'..there is removal of false > view in one who takes it thus 'only formations see formations with > insight, comprehend, define, discern and delimit them." XX83 > Venerable Moliyaphagguna later left the order of monks (SN 12:32.) The > commentary notes that this is because he had not attained any of the paths > (sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami , arahant) "for if he had attained them he > would not have reverted to the lower life". > > So difficult is it to step out of this perversion of view (vipallasa). > Thinking thinks "'I' have insight, 'I' see or 'I' am ignorant, 'I' don't > see" not realising that the thinking is occuring without any agent. There > is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There > are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the > conditions of the dependent origination itself. > > It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that > terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary > for communication even when discussing Dhamma. Thus the Buddha and > arahants use them too; but without any misconceptions that they refer to > something real. > "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes > use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > For us, on the otherhand, it may be easy enough to think or say 'There is > no self' but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in > subtle or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me' thinking or speaking > we are caught in the whirl of view. These hallucinations are gradually > uprooted as they are seen and if satipatthana is correctly developed. > > It is natural enough, having confidence in the sublime Dhamma of the > Buddha, that one wishes to bring the round to a quick halt: > "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject > to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by > wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings > subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to > aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & > despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by > wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." > Mahasatipatthana sutta. > > > > robert 11630 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are > referring to. Could you say a bit more? > ----------------------------------------------------------- OK, let me cut and paste after checking back..sorry, my delays must be confusing (or even irksome);-) I think it is your statement about ‘harm being done to innocent beings’ in the original post at the end and how this is supported in the texts that I am interested to hear more about. I know it’s a particularly sensitive topic. While it's true that we can never say that kamma is the only cause, whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a major cause as I understand. Best wishes, Sarah (no need to follow up if you'd prefer to leave it for now, of course. =================================================== Howard: Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: National/group Kamma? I'll check "Buddhadhamma" again, which is where the reference came from, and I'll also check the Dhammapada as well. Perhaps Ven Payutto made an error. As I recall, somebody quoted a similar piece involving Sivaka from an entirely different source. (I think I may have commented on this at the time as an "oddity".) If I fail to get back to you on this soon (I'm a drop busy at the moment), please do remind me about it. .......... Sarah: > I just got round to checking your reference in the following post as I was > curious to follow this line. However, I can't find it under Dhp 276 which > is about the 8fold path;-) Neither is under the Pali ref. Maybe you could > kindly check it..sorry for the delay. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Christine - > > Here is a reference for you. In his wonderful book Buddhadhamma, > the > renowned Thai scholar-monk, Phra Prayudh Payutto discusses this issue. > He > lists as the first of what the Buddha called "three heretical doctrines" > the > doctrine of "Pubbekatahetuvaada (past-action determinism) - believing > that > all sukha and dukkha are related to past kamma (or pubbekatavaada, for > short)" Going into further detail on this, he quotes the Buddha from > Dhammapada 276 as follows: "Truly, Sivaka, some sensations arise having > goodness as their place of origin ... some arise from the fluctuation of > the > seasons ... some arise from a lack of consistent behavior ... some arise > from > being the victim of bad deeds ... some arise from the fruits of > kamma....If > any recluses and brahmins assert or believe that 'People have sensations > - be > they sukha or dukkha, non-sukha or non-dukkha - due to past kamma,' ... > I can > say that this is the fault of those recluses and brahmins themselves." > I think this is rather clear, don't you? In particular, one can see the > connection between the Buddha's statement that "some arise from being > the > victim of bad deeds" and my statement in my last post on this subject to > the > effect that "Other beings can initiate willful action against beings > which > have consequences for those beings. Harm CAN be done to innocent > beings." I > have based my position on what the Buddha said, not only on my own > deductions. =========================================================== 11631 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 0:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Dear Robert, Thanks for sharing that you also used to find death scary ...... it helps to know this just as much as it helps to know you don't have the fear now. Truly, we aren't afraid of the next moment, as you say. Though I think this may be because we believe the next moment is a fairly predictable continuation of the same conditions as now. However, the moment after death is 'into unknown territory'......perhaps (or most certainly) birth in another plane..... I'm glad you mentioned Stephen Levines' name - I've had a quick read of a few excerpts on the Net. One which seem worth further searching for is "Who Dies?: An Investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious Dying". You mention that reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present death is - but also for those like me it can be: "At home in our favorite easy chair, we read in the newspaper of five dying in a hotel fire in Cleveland, of ten killed in a bus accident on the freeway. Of three thousand crushed in an earthquake in Italy. Of the death of Nobel laureates in their laboratories. And of murderers in the electric chair. We partake of the "survivor's news," reinforcing the idea that "everyone dies but me." Sitting there, reading of the death of others, reassures us of our survivorship, of our immortality. The misfortune of others makes up a large percentage of the front page, creating the illusion of our good fortune. Seldom do we use the news of another's death as a recognition of the impermanence of all things, that all changes as it will." (Excerpt from "Who Dies?"). Have also checked the Visuddimagga - hopefully you're referring to III,105f - will have a read later on. thanks and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, > I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used to > find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to > great profit. > The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this > subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it > all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment > is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't > control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... > When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death moment > (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). > > Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find > particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the > visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical but > after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the > newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well > with insight into anatta as that gives fearlessness to contemplating > death (no one to die). > metta > robert > In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Dear All, > > > > Thanks for the sutta Lucy....Now THAT'S the picture that gives me > > cold shivers! ...... the reality of non-deviating, inescapable, > > inevitable, undeflectable(Sp?), remorseless Death approaching me, > is > > much scarier than 'blood 'n guts', and much scarier than the > > supernatural personifications found in the Christian tradition. > > > > One thought - the last moments in a persons life are held as very > > important to many buddhists, from the point of view of having some > > influence (?control) over what happens next (after death). My > > understanding from what I see daily, is that most people in the > West > > (those that haven't died violently, or suddenly from a heart > > attack/stroke) die in a drugged murky haze with no control over > > bodily functions, last thoughts or emotions. So is there any point > in > > knowing the exact sequence and names of mind moments etc. that make > > up this experience when most people aren't going to aware of it or > be > > able to influence it in any way? > > > > And this affects the idea of preparation. With birth there is an > > approximate time that it will happen, there are a list of things > > known to be efficacious in easing the delivery (diet, exercises, > > breathing methods, spinal block and other drugs that don't cloud > the > > mind etc.), there are 'experts' to guide you through it....... But > > with death, apart from having lived a life in line with the > Precepts, > > I see very little that can help - the time of death is absolutely > > unknown, conscious death is extremely rare, and no-one who has > > experienced it has written a self-help 'How to die the way you want > > to die' manual. > > > > metta, > > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > > Dear Christine, Robert K, all 11632 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:31am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada VI -- Dear Christine, I think Ven. Moliyaphagunna didn't lose anything by becoming a monk and meeting the Buddha. They don't say about his final destination though...I guess it is unknown. All of us are in samsara together and so we should develop compassion, metta and mudita and equanimity to all, even ants and cockroaches. In this case upekka , equanimity is needed because we cannot help the Venerable: We should try to understand that conditions work their way, and by each his own kamma is done. It doesn't help anyone to have sadness about the strife of samsara - but with more understanding we can find ways to help those who we might help. There is the case of saccaka (I think that was his name) who rejected the teachings on anatta direct from the Buddha. But the commentary says that a few hundred years later he was reborn in Sri lanka (I forget his intervening rebirth(s) and became a monk, became an arahant who could know his past lives . He wasn't fully ready at the time the Buddha spoke to him, but the words still helped to condition understanding that finally came to climax. Devadatta is another - he has a firm prediction to become a Pacekka-Buddha after he emerges from apaya. So who knows, ven. Moliyaphagunna may be closer than we think to final nibbana. The rest of your post speaks of your growing insight to me Christine. It is never as much as "we" want but we should be grateful for just a little. You see the objects of satipatthana are just these khandhas right here and now. The 'sad' khandhas are part of Paticcasamuppada (sorrow, lamentation.....) ; we should take the chance to understand them at the moments they arise, they too are conditioned and empty of self. If we can do that then a barrier lifts and one knows that any object is fine to study, to insight. And then all of life becomes a series of opportunities to investigate and we feel much freer because there is not the same urge to have special objects. One thinks 'let anything come, it can be known'. ....... Now having said that I want to add that mostly I want things to be pleasant. I am not as brave as that statement sounds, I write to encourage myself. Here is a sutta you might appreciate: Anguttara Nikaya Mahavaggo THE GREAT CHAPTER Blessings RETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm (Dhamma) through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight. Again, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. He thus listens to; [as above] and is reborn in an assembly of devas. There the blissful ones do not recite to him the stanzas of the Norm ; but a brother possessed of psychic powers, who has mastered his mind, proclaims the Norm to the assembly of devas. Then this thought occurs to him (the former) This is indeed that Norm and Discipline, according to which I lived the holy life in my previous existence.' Brethren, slow is the arising of mindfulness. Yet that being quickly achieves distinction therein. Brethren, just as a person skilled in the sounds of drums, having entered a road, hears the sound of a drum, and has no doubt or uncertainty as to whether it is the sound of a drum or not. Then he concludes that it is surely the sound of a drum. Just so, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas, etc. Then he listens to [as above]. Then indeed that being quickly achieves distinction therein. Brethren, this is the second blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight.... 1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as regards sense and cause.' 3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established. 4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).' http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I am grateful for your continuing posts on Paticcasamuppada.....I > take what learning I can from them (relative to my ability to > understand). > > I have to say that I feel a tiny bit discouraged, and have a certain > sympathy for Moliyaphagguna - A Bhikkhu whose life was dedicated to > following the Path. I think that if those born in the same time > frame as a Buddha + born in geographical proximity + > understanding the language in which the Buddha spoke + being in the > presence of a teaching Buddha still fail to understand ...... well, > the odds seem somewhat stacked against those of lesser talent, > thousands of years from the presence of a teaching Buddha, a couple > of translations away from the original language...and already 'in > the lower life'..... > > And was Moliyaphagguna really 'vainly searching for a self in the > Paticcasamuppada'? Perhaps he was merely searching for an > explanation he could understand. > Forget about whether anything is reborn, or whether everything is > blotted out at death.......No need for an 'eternalist/annihilationist > debate - it would be enough to know "If no self - then how are the > khandas organised during their lifetime into acting coherently and > purposefully?" - a managerial khanda, but don't call it self? > > You say: "It may be easy enough to think or say 'There is no self' > but to the degree that we have underlying attachment that in subtle > or hidden ways believes that it is still 'me thinking or speaking we > are caught in the whirl of view." > I would agree that it is easy enough to say 'There is no > self' ..... It is much easier to play the game and pretend > understanding than to constantly seek clarification and understanding > of the same old topics. And maybe throw formal meditation in as > well - go to a few retreats - at least I could feel I was 'in > control' of some facet, and 'doing something'....with the side > benefit of basking in the warm glow of calm and serenity, not to > mention appoval from the majority.......So - in actual fact, it > is 'easier' to give up questioning altogether and just 'have faith'. > <<<'These hallucinations are gradually uprooted as they are seen and > if satifpatthana is correctly developed.'>>> > If only it were possible to state exactly how satipatthana is > correctly developed....Study and contact with Admirable Friends? > Study, well, O.K. I'm doing that to the best of my ability.....but > who knows if it is helping or hindering.......Just filling my head > with words perhaps, and no filter on what ideas I take up from > it....... I would not have liked my children to have done > unsupervised, unstructured, self-chosen study to prepare them for one > life - and the stakes here are allegedly much higher. > Admirable Friends ?, I have to say I've been lucky here......Though a > more considerate group would have managed to live closer :-) > > Do I seem to be dwelling in self-pity?? That must mean it's > Monday...... :-) > > Yes, I do know that it is of inestimable value to be alive while the > Teachings are still intact and available. But what use is > availability without understanding...... > metta, > Christine > > --- 11633 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death -- Dear Christine, Yep, 'Who dies' is the book I was thinking of. The section in the Visudd. is VIII 1-41 (about 10 pages). It helps that you mentioned the "survivors news'. I think the Visudd. notes that this kind of thinking is not maranasati (meditation on death). For it to be real it should impact on us as 'I too will soon be like them'. If it is done correctly it comes with calm and detachment towards the khandhas. best robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > Thanks for sharing that you also used to find death scary ...... it > helps to know this just as much as it helps to know you don't have > the fear now. Truly, we aren't afraid of the next moment, as you > say. Though I think this may be because we believe the next moment > is a fairly predictable continuation of the same conditions as now. > However, the moment after death is 'into unknown > territory'......perhaps (or most certainly) birth in another > plane..... > I'm glad you mentioned Stephen Levines' name - I've had a quick read > of a few excerpts on the Net. One which seem worth further searching > for is "Who Dies?: An Investigation of Conscious Living and Conscious > Dying". > You mention that reading the newspaper is a reminder of how present > death is - but also for those like me it can be: > > "At home in our favorite easy chair, we read in the newspaper of five > dying in a hotel fire in Cleveland, of ten killed in a bus accident > on the freeway. Of three thousand crushed in an earthquake in Italy. > Of the death of Nobel laureates in their laboratories. And of > murderers in the electric chair. We partake of the "survivor's news," > reinforcing the idea that "everyone dies but me." Sitting there, > reading of the death of others, reassures us of our survivorship, of > our immortality. The misfortune of others makes up a large percentage > of the front page, creating the illusion of our good fortune. Seldom > do we use the news of another's death as a recognition of the > impermanence of all things, that all changes as it will." (Excerpt > from "Who Dies?"). > > Have also checked the Visuddimagga - hopefully you're referring to > III,105f - will have a read later on. > > thanks and metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" > wrote: > > --- > > Dear Christine, > > I think it is very good that you are studying about death. I used > to > > find it scary but gradually looked into it - as you are doing - to > > great profit. > > The books by Stephen Levine are quite good as an intro. to this > > subject. And almost all Dhamma is about preparing for death as it > > all leads to understanding this moment and detachment. Death moment > > is just like now. We are not afraid of the next moment but we can't > > control whether it will be seeeing or hearing or .... > > When we go to sleep there are moments of bhavanga citta. Death > moment > > (cuti citta) is identical to bhavanga (I think that's right). > > > > Maranasati (meditation on death) is a way of samatha that I find > > particulary suitable and calming (for me). Reading about it in the > > visuddimagga (section on objects of samatha) it sounds technical > but > > after exploring it we can bring it up very often. Just reading the > > newspaper is a reminder of how present it is. It goes together well 11634 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 2:55am Subject: Re: A Personal Note of No Great Import Howard, thanks for sharing the Joy .... it brightened up my Monday... One other unexpected pleasure came my way as well, so I'll share a little excerpt in thanks for being uplifted by your news. Just a part of a poem - found when looking for readings on Time and The Present Moment - also, like your news, Dhamma related <-(that bit's for the moderators :-)) Excerpts from "Now and Then" June 18, 1995 Each and every morning, first this spring and now this summer, a house wren calls out. He calls out, "I am this house wren and this is my house. Stay away." His house is a hole in the wall of the house neighbouring this building. It is a brick wall that faces onto and adjoins the monastery garden. The house wren sits in this hole sometimes, and there he calls out his message. Sometimes, however, he sits amongst the branches and leaves of the sumac tree. Sometimes he sits on the wires. Now he is here and now he's there. When here, it is here, now. When there, it is then. But when "then" was "now," "there" was "here." Whenever anything happens it happens now and "now" is this "happening." Each moment, when it is this moment, is right now. But "then" was once "now" and "right now" tick tick tick is now "then." This moment is not the past moment, not the future moment but in this moment what happens as this moment both shows and hides the past. The bird was "there" and now is "here." The future, however. seems to be utterly hidden. We can have some very small sense of the future, in that, we can know, somewhat, the future completion of the motion of lifting, placing, and setting the foot. But we might die before the foot makes contact with the next stair and go tumbling down. We don't know. We don't know. The future is that hidden. Because it is so hidden from us, we can engage in all manner of speculation. We can lose ourselves in all manner of hopes and fears. We can imagine future glories, or complete and abject failure, or any combination thereof... And so it can seem to us that time moves as past, present and future. Each moment has a past and a future. Each moment is this moment and there is only this moment. But each moment, when it is this moment, is only this moment. And this moment contains within itself past and future. But "past" and "future" only have meaning when measured from this moment; and this moment has no width. It has no depth. There is nothing that is this moment. There is only this presencing, this activity of Experiencing that is happening everywhere right now. --------------------- We understand nothing about time because we understand nothing about this moment. ---------------------- Time is not merely something which "passes." "It is the utter and radical impermanence that makes life possible so that when you breathe in you don't have to hold it forever and ever. You can breathe out. And when you breathe out there is room to breathe in. And this impermanence is so radical that it must be understood not as some thing which happens "to" things but as the activity, the presencing, of Reality." ------------------------------ then, knowing that you don't know what anything is becomes such an open ended questioning that it opens into wonder. And when this wonder is unfolded in each moment of your life, not just your "practice" but your life, when you understand that "practice" is your life, when you are practising your life, then the doubt which became questioning, which became wonder, becomes understanding. http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/wildTime.htm --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I'd just like to mention a relatively unimportant personal matter that > has made me happy. 11635 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya) Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Sarah, Thanks for info on Khun Sujin & the Foundation. Yes, I'm aware of difficulty in finding way in BKK. I will contact DSG before next visit. Sumane Rathnasuriya 11636 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Practice Jhana , Bhikkhus " wasKamma Herman ---egberdina wrote: > I smiled as I read this post. So many words about a wordless state. > > Discussing jhana as an aid to practising jhana is a time honoured > tradition. The problem I have with your posts, Herman, is that I'm never sure when you're being sarcastic, cynical or the like!! So I hope you don't mind if pass on this bit, in case I've read you wrongly. > The Buddha speaks very clearly about the fruits of the contemplative > life. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn02.html > > Dissuading people from the practise of jhana is a dhammastudygroup > institution. And what fruit does this bear? However, I fairly sure I'm right in seeing some disapproval here ;-)). Specifically, disapproval of some people's posts (including, and perhaps especially, mine) on the role of jhana in relation to the Noble Eightfold Path. Here's a thought for you to consider, then. If someone was very interested in all aspects of sila but appeared to have no interest in samatha (a higher form of kusala), and you tried to explain to them the benefits of developing samatha, would that be dissuading them from the practice of sila? And if the person said, well actually samatha is my ultimate goal but it says here in the texts that one needs to have good sila in order to develop high levels of samatha, so I'm going to develop better sila first, you might then say to him/her, yes, but by learning about the development of samatha one also learns about the development of sila, and to an even more refined degree than just by studying about sila, because samatha requires a detailed discernment of the difference between even the subtlest moments of kusala and akusala. Now suppose that person is unable to get the point, and doesn't appreciate that to develop samatha is necessarily to develop sila too, and insists on trying to have better sila first as a basis for samatha, would that view not constitute a hindrance to his development of samatha (his ultimate goal)? To my understanding, a similar sort of relationship applies as between samatha and vipassana. A person who is developing vipassana is also developing samatha (samatha being the tranquillity associated with kusala and accompanied by panna), and all the Right Concentration necessary for insight and, eventually, enlightenment. Always enjoy your provocative posts, Herman. Jon 11637 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Rob --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > really > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the > object of > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And > if the > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the > object would > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > *conceptualising > > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle > akusala > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > bound > > up with akusala. > > > ____________ > > Dear Jon, > I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For > example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced not > as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). > best wishes > robert Thanks for these comments, Rob. You may well be right, but I cant think of any way of checking this point in the texts (can you?). Fortunately (for me, I mean), I don’t think this affects the point I was trying to make to Howard, namely that moments of directed attention to dhammas or what we take for dhammas are likely not to be moments of directly knowing dhammas as they really are. Thanks anyway. I will avoid being categorical on this point until I have confirmed one way or the other. Jon 11638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is > mostly > > with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other > > important ingredient in the mix, Howard). > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What I said was the following, Jon: > "I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there > be a > strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved." > Now, Jon, saying that there *could* be a strong sense of self and > > there *could* also be strong craving involved, is a far cry from saying > "whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an > idea > of self or craving." Firstly, my apologies if I misunderstood your position, Howard. (To be honest, I'm not convinced I'm guilty as charged, but I'm not going to pursue this -- let's move on!). > In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound > layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an > ongoing > concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively > free > of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. The concept of a 'background layer of calm and non-reactiveness' is a novel one to me. I am doubtful that it finds support in the texts. Also, I would be interested to know what you see as being the significance of the 'non-reactiveness' (and what dhamma would this be, I wonder?). There seems to be an idea here that a concentration practice that leads to normal reactions being replaced by non-reactiveness (presumably because of suppression at some level or other) is or is likely to be a form of kusala, but I doubt that this would be so, for much the same reasons as mentioned in the context of directed attention (i.e., idea of self, craving). By 'concentration practice' you refer to samatha bhavana, I think. Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated with kusala (not concentration as such) and is developed when kusala citta is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level. It's true that highly developed samatha can lead to the temporary suppression of the 5 hindrances. However, the idea that such suppression is a condition, necessary or otherwise, for the development of satipatthana, is one of those 'logical' deductions that in fact is not supported by the texts themselves, to my knowledge (any references would be welcome) In any event, it is I think important to bear in mind that the 5 hindrances do not include the wrong view that is the 'sense of self' (your post above). The significance of this should be evident. It measn that the suppression of the hindrances (something that constitutes such a significant aspect of some people's idea of the development of the path) can have no impact as regards the defilement of wrong view -- yet wrong view is one of the defilements to be eradicated at the first level of enlightenment. I think I've said enough for one post! I'll get back to you one the rest later. Jon > In fact, this is, > as I see it, the purpose of Right Concentration, which is defined again > and > again in the suttas as the attaining of the first four jhanas. > In any case, Jon, the Buddha never taught anyone to just wait > until > *somehow* conditions arose for wisdom to appear. The Buddha taught the > conscious, deliberate, and determined practice of right behavior, right > meditation (including both the cultivation of calm and insight), and > wisdom > (at the intellectual level, by study of the dhamma, and at the ultimate > level > as a consequence of all the rest). > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > really > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The sense of self disappears only with the attainment of complete > > enlightenment. But dhammas can come to be known as they are, that is by > wisdom, as a consequence of a combination of right behavior, > meditation, and > right understanding, and mindfulness can be developed while one is still > a > worldling. If that were not so, there would be no escape from samsara, > and > the Buddha's teaching would be a fraud. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object > of > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My *experience* is that this is just not so. When concentration, > calm, > and mindfulness are made very strong by extended practice, one *can* see > > dhammas directly, and not through the mediation of concept, and their > impermanence and insubstantiality become clear. In fact, it is amazing > at > times that things in reality are not at all what they seem to be through > the > mediation of concepts. It is definitely possible to see that "our world" > is > one big conceptual magic show. It *is* possible to see through the > trickery! > (But not by just waiting for conditions to "somehow" arise, and not by > just > *reading* about the way things really are.) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > And if the> > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object > would > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > *conceptualising > > about dhammas*. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And you know this pessimistic "fact" how? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala> > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > bound > > up with akusala. > > > > I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect > moments > > of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of > kusala, > > particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. > > > > I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. > > > > Jon > > > =============================== > With metta, > Howard 11639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Victor --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > Is nama permanent or impermanent? > > Regards, > Victor Hmm. You've got me worried here, Victor. I know you're not asking me because you don't know the answer... It must be something to do with my post, but I really can't see the connection. Anyway, since I have a 50% chance of getting this right, let me say 'impermanent' ;-)). Jon > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, > because > > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the > > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that > > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as > either > > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual > grasp > > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in > number. > > > > Jon 11640 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) -- Dear Jon, I thought about it some more. I think it depends on what we mean by experienced. All day there is the experience of paramattha dhammas in the sense that for example seeing is happening now. But the mental processes after the seeing are almost always concept. When it comes to things like sensations in the body such as hot or cold it can seem like there is direct understanding, without any concept, but as you have been saying it is not as easy as it appears. In fact one definition of avijja notes that it runs among concepts but doesn't run among paramattha dhammas - which certainly supports what you said. best wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Rob > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > > really > > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the > > object of > > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. And > > if the > > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the > > object would > > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > > *conceptualising > > > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle > > akusala > > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > > bound > > > up with akusala. > > > > ____________ > > > > Dear Jon, > > I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For > > example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced not > > as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). > > best wishes > > robert > > > Thanks for these comments, Rob. You may well be right, but I cant think > of any way of checking this point in the texts (can you?). > > Fortunately (for me, I mean), I don't think this affects the point I was > trying to make to Howard, namely that moments of directed attention to > dhammas or what we take for dhammas are likely not to be moments of > directly knowing dhammas as they really are. > > Thanks anyway. I will avoid being categorical on this point until I have > confirmed one way or the other. > > Jon > > > 11641 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Hi again, Jon - Just one more point. The Buddha said that all he taught was suffering and the end of suffering. He also said that his teaching consisted only of the handful of leaves needed for liberation. He included Right Concentration,*repeatedly defined in the suttas as the first four jhanas*, as one of the eight steps of his program. The conclusion is immediate. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11642 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kilesas (Defilements) John Hello and welcome from me. Thanks for coming in on this interesting thread of Christine's. --- johnrloganis wrote: > Christine, > Thank you for your very clear elaboration. > > I had not seen the Kilesas the way you described them. I had wondered > why even immediately after understanding the basic principles of the > Dhamma, after a meditation in which much clarity has been realized, > the most ugly things can pop out most unexpectedly. This is a useful observation of a phenomenon that I suspect some people choose not to acknowledge. It is natural to want see a reduction in the kilesa that are so apparent in our lives, and having embarked on a meditation practice designed to achieve this, some may be unwilling to face up to a the reality that nothing has changed. I don't wish to be discouraging, but it is my understanding that the underlying kilesa that constitute the ‘ugly things popping up in our lives’ can be attenuated only by the development of insight, and that this is such a gradual thing that progress is barely perceptible. However, I believe it is better to be forewarned about this than to become discouraged or, worse still, disillusioned further down the line because of dashed expectations. (And if I’m wrong and insight can be developed more quickly than I think, then so much the better!) > It seems that I must really do more practice and work on making the > Dhamma more dominant in my heart/mind. I appreciate your resolve here, John. I hope you will find this list useful in channelling your efforts in the right direction. We look forward to hearing more from you. Jon 11643 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 2:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada VI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" >... There > is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. There > are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the > conditions of the dependent origination itself. > Last Saturday I went for a walk along the Conwy River, it was flowing fierce with all the recent rains... It made me think about paticcasamuppada and "self" - There are some similarities with a river, aren't there? A river is a succession of infinite molecules of water, each molecule causing the next molecule to follow and take its place. It always looks like "a river" and like "water" but the water molecules are never the same - even in the most infinitesimal lapse of time. And then there is the river bed - furrows carved on rocks by the flowing water. Seems so much like sanskhara... > It should be noted that although there is no self this does not mean that > terms such as I, mine and self are to be discarded. These are necessary > for communication even when discussing Dhamma. or when talking about a river. --- sorry, pay no attention --- merely deranged ramblings from a river side rambler ! Best wishes Lucy 11644 From: Victor Yu Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Jon, Yes. Nama is impermanent. Is what is impermanent easeful or stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha? Regards, Victor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities > Victor > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > > > Is nama permanent or impermanent? > > > > Regards, > > Victor > > Hmm. You've got me worried here, Victor. I know you're not asking me > because you don't know the answer... It must be something to do with my > post, but I really can't see the connection. > > Anyway, since I have a 50% chance of getting this right, let me say > 'impermanent' ;-)). > > Jon > > > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, > > because > > > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only the > > > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > > > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight that > > > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as > > either > > > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm intellectual > > grasp > > > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > > > > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in > > number. > > > > > > Jon > 11645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 8:59pm Subject: jhana Dear Kom, I appreciate very much your careful way of explaining the difficult subject of jhana and the obstacles people may find on their way. It is compassion to show the difficulties of the attainment of jhana, because it helps people not to take for jhana what is not jhana. Nina. 11646 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 0:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Dear Jon, Nice way of putting it Jon, I really appreciate it. Metta, Sukin. In any event, it is I think important to bear in mind that the 5 hindrances do not include the wrong view that is the 'sense of self' (your post above). The significance of this should be evident. It measn that the suppression of the hindrances (something that constitutes such a significant aspect of some people's idea of the development of the path) can have no impact as regards the defilement of wrong view -- yet wrong view is one of the defilements to be eradicated at the first level of enlightenment. I think I've said enough for one post! I'll get back to you one the rest later. Jon 11647 From: azita gill Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 10:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import --- Sarah wrote: , > > While it's true that we can never say that kamma is > the only cause, > whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a > major cause as I > understand. > Dear Sarah, I have only just learnt that not all we experience is the result of kamma. Reading questions and answers from King Milinda and Nagasena, King M. states: "---for there is no feeling without kamma. All feeling has its root in kamma and it is on account of kamma that feeling arises." Nagasena: "No, great king, not all feeling has its root in kamma. There are eight causes of the arising of feelings. Excess of wind, of bile and of phlegm, the mixture of the 3 bodily fluids, variations in temperature, stress of circumstances, external agency [???] and kamma. Whoever says it is only kamma that oppresses beings excludes the other 7 reasons and that statement of theirs is wrong. [here i'm leaving out Nagasena's elaboration on the above] The ignorant go too far when they say that everything that is experienced is produced as the fruit of kamma. Without a Buddha's insight no one can ascertain the extent of the action of kamma." > I'm amazed that this is so. For a long time I beleived as King M. Also, Sarah, in an earlier post, you requested a photo of Zoe and me. I'm not ignoring that request; I won't see Zoe til May and I'll organise fotos then. How do I get to view the other fotos???? haven't worked that one out yet. > > . may all beings be happy. a Azita. > 11648 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Dear Howard So marvellous! Thank you for telling us, it's wonderful to be able to share your joy and so kind of you to let us know anjali / \ Lucy 11649 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/4/02 8:23:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > > > > > So to recap, whenever there is directed attention/observation it is > > mostly > > > with an idea of self or craving (and thanks for identifying this other > > > important ingredient in the mix, Howard). > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What I said was the following, Jon: > > "I actually don't disagree with this, Jon. Not only could there > > be a > > strong sense of self, there could also be a strong craving involved." > > Now, Jon, saying that there *could* be a strong sense of self and > > > > there *could* also be strong craving involved, is a far cry from saying > > "whenever there is directed attention/observation it is mostly with an > > idea > > of self or craving." > > Firstly, my apologies if I misunderstood your position, Howard. (To be > honest, I'm not convinced I'm guilty as charged, but I'm not going to > pursue this -- let's move on!). > ------------------------------------------ Howard: As you wish. ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > > In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound > > layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an > > ongoing > > concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively > > free > > of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. > > The concept of a 'background layer of calm and non-reactiveness' is a > novel one to me. I am doubtful that it finds support in the texts. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't give you specific references. I have heard, from many sources and repeatedly, that an ongoing practice of samatha bhavana leads to a general calming of the mind, not just during a jhana, by means of suppression as opposed to uprooting (which requires path consciousness). One *can* note that in DN 2, in the section immediately following the Jhanas, there is the following: *********************************************************** "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' "This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. **************************************************** There is also the following from Bodhi Leaves 15: **************************************************** Samatha Bhavana Samatha bhavana, the development of mental tranquillity with concentration, is accompanied by three benefits; it gives happiness in the present life, a favorable rebirth, and the freedom from mental defilements which is a prerequisite for attainment of insight. In samatha the mind becomes like a still, clear pool completely free from disturbance and agitation, and ready to mirror on its surface the nature of things as they really are, the aspect of them which is hidden from ordinary knowledge by the restlessness of craving. It is the peace and fulfillment which is depicted on the features of the Buddha, investing his images with a significance that impresses even those who have no knowledge of what it means. Such an image of the Buddha can itself be a very suitable object of meditation, and is, in fact, the one that most Buddhists instinctively use. The very sight of the tranquil image can calm and pacify a mind distraught with worldly hopes and fears. It is the certain and visible assurance of Nibbana. ******************************************************* I found the above two in one minute. I'd expect that a thorough search could do much better. -------------------------------------------------------- Also,> > I would be interested to know what you see as being the significance of > the 'non-reactiveness' (and what dhamma would this be, I wonder?). ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Non-reactiveness isn't a dhamma; it is an absence, the absence of the tendency to react with craving, aversion, and clinging. When we react with craving, aversion, clinging, and with an active sense of "I" and "mine", the meditative process is short-circuited. This is quite evident to those who meditate. ------------------------------------------------------- There> > seems to be an idea here that a concentration practice that leads to > normal reactions being replaced by non-reactiveness (presumably because of > suppression at some level or other) is or is likely to be a form of > kusala, but I doubt that this would be so, for much the same reasons as > mentioned in the context of directed attention (i.e., idea of self, > craving). > > By 'concentration practice' you refer to samatha bhavana, I think. > Samatha bhavana is the development of the tranquillity that is associated > with kusala (not concentration as such) and is developed when kusala citta > is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level. It's true that highly > developed samatha can lead to the temporary suppression of the 5 > hindrances. However, the idea that such suppression is a condition, > necessary or otherwise, for the development of satipatthana, is one of > those 'logical' deductions that in fact is not supported by the texts > themselves, to my knowledge (any references would be welcome) > > In any event, it is I think important to bear in mind that the 5 > hindrances do not include the wrong view that is the 'sense of self' (your > post above). The significance of this should be evident. It measn that > the suppression of the hindrances (something that constitutes such a > significant aspect of some people's idea of the development of the path) > can have no impact as regards the defilement of wrong view -- yet wrong > view is one of the defilements to be eradicated at the first level of > enlightenment. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, until stream-entry there is the view of "self", and until full enlightenment there is the sense of "self". If the absence of these were a requirement for progress on the path, then one would already have to be at stream-entry to even begin; that is, in order to get to S we'd already have to *be* at S - an impossibility. -------------------------------------------------- > > I think I've said enough for one post! I'll get back to you one the rest > later. > > Jon > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 6, no 2 India Ch 6, no 2 We had a Dhamma discussion sitting on the grass near the great Stupa in Sarnath, where the Buddha gave his first sermon to his five disciples. There were many people going around the Stupa and Burmese pilgrims were beating a drum and chanting to express their respect to the Buddha. After our discussion we were also going around the Stupa three times with lighted candles. Instead of thoughts of reverence I happened to have thoughts of dosa because of something that worried me. However, I remembered a conversation I had with a friend who had told me that we do not necessarily have wholesome thoughts at the holy sites. It is very natural that there are also akusala cittas. Then I considered that it did not matter to have dosa. Later on Acharn Sujin reminded me that even such thoughts can be motivated by lobha: someone may like it that he is unconcerned about his dosa. This shows again how easily we can be deceived with regard to ourselves. Attachment to sense objects can only be eradicated at the attainment of the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner, anågåmí. First wrong view of realities, diììhi, has to be eradicated before other defilements can be eradicated. We have the latent tendency of wrong view, diììhanussaya, and this can condition the arising of lobha-múla-citta (citta rooted in attachment) that is accompanied by wrong view. When we have studied the Dhamma we may have intellectual understanding of the Buddha¹s teaching on nåma and rúpa, but we may still follow the wrong practice instead of developing right understanding of what appears now. Wrong practice is a way of wrong view, diììhi. We may engage in wrong practice without noticing this. We may, for example, believe that we should visit the holy sites and pay respect to the Buddha¹s relics in order to have more sati of satipatthåna. Acharn Supee reminded us that we may try to induce sati by acting in a specific way. That is not the right Path. He explained that the ³teacher² lobha may tell us to follow special techniques in order to gain more understanding, but that this is not the development of right understanding of realities that are conditioned and appear now. Acharn Sujin always stresses that we cannot do anything to have sati, it arises because of its own conditions. When we listen to the Dhamma conditions for the arising of sati are accumulated. However, we may still unknowingly try to be aware. It is paññå that can detect such moments. Conceit, måna, is another akusala cetasika that can arise with lobha-múla-citta. When there is conceit we attach importance to ourselves. Because of conceit we compare ourselves with others: we think ourselves better, equal or less than someone else. However, also when we do not compare ourselves with others we may find ourselves important and then there is conceit. Acharn Sujin reminded us that even when we laugh, conceit may arise. When we laugh about the way someone else is dressed, there can be conceit: we may find that he is dressed in a funny way while we are well dressed. Also when we are with other people who tell us stories and we join in their laughter we may find ourselves important, we may attach importance to our way of laughing, our manners. Acharn Supee explained that when there is a sense of ³me² and ³he² there may already be conceit. Conceit may arise when we think of someone else who takes medicine while we do not have to take it; when we think of ourselves who perspire in the hot climate of India, while others do not; when we think of ourselves who have taken the food from the buffet table already while others have not yet; when we think of ourselves who visit the holy sites, while others do not. There are countless instances of thinking with conceit, but these are very intricate. When there is a thought of ³me and the others² and our objective is not dåna, síla or bhåvanå, conceit is bound to arise very often. Even when we think, ³He sits there and I am here², there can already be conceit, Acharn Supee said. When we have mettå, loving kindness, for someone else, we do not think with conceit, thus this is a way to have less akusala when we are with others. However, cittas arise and fall away very rapidly, and there may even be clinging to the idea of trying to have mettå instead of conceit. Mettå and conceit can arise very rapidly one after the other. Only paññå can know these different moments. Acharn Sujin said: ³If we try to analyse different moments it is not paññå, it is thinking. When there is more understanding there will be less thinking about Œme¹ all the time. We should think of other people rather than thinking of ourselves. Any time satipaììhåna arises, it is so useful. It is like a drop of water falling in a big jar, even if it is a tiny drop.² In other words, eventually the jar will be filled with water, even if there is a little drop at a time. Evenso, a short moment of sati is useful, because it is accumulated little by little, so that right understanding can grow. 11651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for realities op 02-03-2002 16:14 schreef Victor Yu op victoryu@s...: > > What are the accumulated conditions for the arising of mindfulness? > What are the right conditions for the realities to arise? Dear Victor, First of all I want to thank you for the sutta quotations you provide us with so often. They are very valuable and it is so kind of you to take the trouble pasting them. As always your questions are short and pertinent. The condiitons for mindfulness: listening to the right person who explains the Dhamma, deeply considering what we hear, again and again, investigating in our daily life the dhammas that appear. At first it is intellectual understanding, and when this is really firm, it is a foundation for the arising of samma-sati. The conditions for the realities to arise: this is a great question, Victor. There are 24 classes of conditions, this is most intricate. We were born in this human plane, result of kamma. We were born to receive objects through the senses: seeing, hearing, etc. Those are results of kamma. There is seeing whether you like it or not. There is hearing, whether you like it or not. After the sense impressions there are our reactions, kusala cittas or akusala cittas, and these raise conditioned by our accumulated inclinations. There are nama and rupa all the time, they are never lacking, they arise and fall away, no matter whether there is awareness of them or forgetfulness. It is all so extremely fast. There is no time to say: now I shall focus on rupa, now I shall focus on feeling or citta. Sarah reminded us of the ayatanas: ********** Life passes just in a flash. I quote from Visuddhimagga, XX, 72, which contains actually quotes from the Maha-Niddesa, Sutta on Old Age: Life, person, pleasure, pain-just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Gods, though they life for four-and eighty thousand Aeonas, are not the same for two such moments. Ceased khandhas of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return; And those that break up meanwhile, and in future, Have traits no different from those ceased before. No (world is) born if (consciousness) is not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow. No store of broken states, no future stock; Those born balance like seeds on needle points. Break-up of states is foredoomed at their birth; Those present decay, unmingled with those past. They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go; Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky. Considering the ayatanas helps me to understand the seed balancing on a needle point: the visible object impinges on the eyesense and then seeing-consciousness arises, and the meeting or association of them is unthinkably short. People ask sometimes, how can I be in time to be aware of realities? It is all too fast. It is not a question of being in time, it is pa~n~naa that can shoot from very far and very precisely. When there are conditions for pa~n~naa it arises and is accompanied by right thinking, which hits the object and right concentration which focusses on the object, and the other conascent cetasikas performing their functions. Sati cannot be aware of what has not arisen yet, it can be aware of what has arisen because of conditions and appear. Sati cannot be planned, nor can the objects of sati be planned. An example: a harsh sound is heard when someone slams the door, then aversion may arise immediately, or sati that is aware of sound. It is all so sudden, so rapid. Best wishes from Nina. ********** 11652 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Personal Note of No Great Import Thanks, Christine. Lovely! With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/4/02 5:56:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Howard, thanks for sharing the Joy .... it brightened up my Monday... > One other unexpected pleasure came my way as well, so I'll share a > little excerpt in thanks for being uplifted by your news. > Just a part of a poem - found when looking for readings on Time and > The Present Moment - also, like your news, Dhamma related <-(that > bit's for the moderators :-)) > > Excerpts from "Now and Then" > > June 18, 1995 > > Each and every morning, > first this spring > and now this summer, > a house wren calls out. > > He calls out, "I am this house wren and this is my house. Stay away." > > His house is a hole in the wall of the house neighbouring this > building. > It is a brick wall that faces onto and adjoins the monastery garden. > > The house wren sits in this hole sometimes, and there he calls out > his message. > Sometimes, however, he sits amongst the branches and leaves of the > sumac tree. > Sometimes he sits on the wires. > > Now he is here > and now he's there. > > When here, it is here, now. > When there, it is then. > But when "then" was "now," > "there" was "here." > > Whenever anything happens > it happens now > and "now" is this "happening." > > Each moment, when it is this moment, is right now. > > But "then" was once "now" and "right now" > tick tick tick > is now "then." > > This moment is not the past moment, not the future moment > but in this moment > what happens as this moment > both shows and hides the past. > > The bird was "there" and now is "here." > > The future, however. seems to be utterly hidden. > > We can have some very small sense of the future, in that, > we can know, somewhat, the future completion of the motion of > lifting, placing, and setting the foot. > But we might die before the foot makes contact with the next stair > and go tumbling down. > We don't know. We don't know. > > The future is that hidden. > > Because it is so hidden from us, we can engage in all manner of > speculation. > We can lose ourselves in all manner of hopes and fears. > We can imagine future glories, > or complete and abject failure, > or any combination thereof... > > And so it can seem to us > that time moves as past, present and future. > > Each moment has a past and a future. > > Each moment is this moment > and there is only this moment. > > But each moment, when it is this moment, is only this moment. > And this moment contains within itself past and future. > > But "past" and "future" only have meaning > when measured from this moment; > and this moment has no width. > It has no depth. > > There is nothing that is this moment. > > There is only this presencing, > this activity of Experiencing > that is happening everywhere > right now. > > --------------------- > > We understand nothing about time > because we understand nothing about this moment. > ---------------------- > Time is not merely something which "passes." > > "It is the utter and radical impermanence that makes life possible > so that when you breathe in > you don't have to hold it forever and ever. > You can breathe out. > And when you breathe out there is room to breathe in. > > And this impermanence is so radical that it must be understood > not as some thing which happens "to" things > but as the activity, the presencing, of Reality." > ------------------------------ > then, knowing that you don't know what anything is > becomes such an open ended questioning > that it opens into wonder. > > And when this wonder is unfolded in each moment of your life, > not just your "practice" but your life, > > when you understand that "practice" is your life, > when you are practising your life, > > then the doubt which became questioning, > which became wonder, > becomes understanding. > http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/wildTime.htm > --------------------------------- > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11653 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Thanks for your detailed response Sarah. I'm particularly interested in the idea that the study of abhidhamma is a practice in itself. You mentioned that this particular kind of study should be applied to daily life, thereby differentiating it from an academic study. I also got the impression that just by listening to it (perhaps reading it) one could sort of soak it up. This seems very appealing to me, as I'm not a skilful meditator and I enjoy buddhist academics. The only real problem is how to apply it. What can we do with an "ultimate reality". To me it's no more than a concept. In other words, it's not experientially available even though it actually *is* experience. Kind of like an atom. So what does Ajahn Sujin mean by "apply the abhidhamma to every-day life"? thanks for everything, Larry 11654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: freed by insight alone op 28-02-2002 12:47 schreef rikpa21 op rikpa21@y...: > Hello Nina, I just to add that I find some points of question on > this when you say there is no need to develop samatha "to a high > degree." Hello Eric, it has been explained in the Abhidhamma, Puggala Pannatti, Human Types, that some people develop samatha and vipassana and some only vipassana, they have , sukkha vipassana. Now, I know that you are mostly inclined to the Suttanta, and therefore, I shall just quote a text from the Suttanta where this is explained. Kindred Sayings II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Nidana vagga, II, 119: Susima: we read that Susima the wanderer was persuaded by his followers to join the Order so that he could learn the Dhamma and teach his followers. They wanted then to preach the Dhamma to the laity in order to receive honour and gain. Susima was ordained by Ananda and heard that many monks had attained arahatship. Susima asked them whether they had attained supranatural powers, rupa-jhana or arupa-jhana and they answered that they had not. When Susima asked them "How is that", they answered: "We have been freed by insight, friend Susima." Susima answered: "I do not know fully the matter stated concisely by the venerable ones. It would be well if the venerable ones were to state it so that I might come to know fully the matter they have stated concisely" "Whether you know it, friend Susima, or whether you do not know it, we have been freed by insight." Susima went to the Buddha who explained to him: "First comes knowledge of the law of cause (and effect) , afterwards comes knowledge about nibbana." The Buddha then asked him whether the body is permanent or impermanent, and whether what is impermanent is dukkha or pleasant, sukha, and whether one can take what is impermanent and dukkha for self. The Buddha asked him the same about the other khandhas, aggregates, and then taught him the Dependent Origination in order and in reverse order, which mmeans that with the ceasing of ignorance there is the end of the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha then asked him whether when he would know this, he would enjoy the supramundane powers, and whether he could attain arupa-jhana, he answered that he could not. The Buddha said: "Here then, Susima:- this catechism and the non-attainment of these things:-this is what we have done. " We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for which I blame these five hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by insight (alone). " Thus we can conclude, the majority, 320, only developed insight. Now you raise many points in your post, but I think most of these have been discussed in previous posts. Did Sarah not go on a marathon with you? I do understand that you are convinced that you should suppress the hindrances as a prerequisite for insight. But in that case I would find it difficult to have right understanding of them as only conditioned namas, just when they appear, right now. In the satipatthana sutta under mindfulness of citta, we see that the first citta mentioned is the citta with attachment (raga). It has to be known and understood as it is: non-self. I am just wondering, but we do not need to discuss this now. That would be a long discussion, would it not? With best wishes, from Nina. 11655 From: Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:16am Subject: A Post Sent 3/4/02 that May Not Have Gotten Through Hi, Sarah and all - My apologies if this was already received: Subj: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Date: 3/4/02 12:06:42 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Upasaka To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/4/02 3:06:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are > > referring to. Could you say a bit more? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, let me cut and paste after checking back..sorry, my delays must be > confusing (or even irksome);-) > > I think it is your statement about ‘harm being done to innocent beings’ in > the original post at the end and how this is supported in the texts that I > am interested to hear more about. I know it’s a particularly sensitive > topic. > > While it's true that we can never say that kamma is the only cause, > whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a major cause as I > understand. > > Best wishes, > Sarah > > (no need to follow up if you'd prefer to leave it for now, of course. > =========================== Oh, I understand now, I think. It was, as along the lines of the Sivaka Sutta, the business of what happens to and in us not being entirely the fruition of our own kamma. Now, my position is that *in a sense* all that happens to us is *in part* the result of our own kamma. Nothing specific that happens to us would happen if we were not "here", having been born into this realm. And the realm of our birth is the result of kamma. So, already, our own kamma *is* a contributing condition. And, of course, there are many situations where what happens to us internally and "externally" is almost *entirely* the working out of kamma. But, in many cases, the fruition of our kamma is only a minor factor. First of all, even with regard to the realm into which we are born, the conditions "here" are the result of the kamma of multitudes of beings, not just us. And there is a host of other factors such as delineated in the Sivaka Sutta which are strongly contributory to what happens to us. Included among the other factors are the intentional actions of others, the kamma of others.When an angry drunk hits person v ( '"v" for "victim" ;-) over the head with a bottle, the major condition in the event is the drunk's own action, not the kamma that put Mr. v into this world or which may have led him to be on that particular street at that particular time. If v's being hit were solely the fruition of his own kamma, then the drunk would be a hapless pawn in the working out of v's "kammic destiny", and would be, in that sense, innocent! Thus, I see this question of kamma and innocence as a complex/convoluted matter. There are degrees of "innocence" and "guilt" involved. But I particularly oppose the use of the notion of 'kamma' as a justification for blaming the victim, as for example the thousands killed at the WTC in September, the millions killed in the holocaust, or the many rape, assault, and robbery victims in cities across the globe. Does kamma play a role in such cases? Certainly yes, but usually an indirect or tangential one, and usually far from primary. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11656 From: tikmok Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Group, There is an official (???) foundation website at: http://www.buddhadhamma.com Once you get there, click on "BuddhaDhamma.com" (the only English word on the page), and this will give you wealth of information on: 1) Dhamma 2) K. Sujin's short bibliography (along with Nina's) 3) Direction to foundations. kom --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for info on Khun Sujin & the Foundation. > Yes, I'm aware of difficulty in finding way in BKK. > I will contact DSG before next visit. > > Sumane Rathnasuriya > > > 11657 From: Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 4:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/4/02 3:06:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I'd be happy to Sarah, but I'm afraid I don't know what you are > > referring to. Could you say a bit more? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > OK, let me cut and paste after checking back..sorry, my delays must be > confusing (or even irksome);-) > > I think it is your statement about ‘harm being done to innocent beings’ in > the original post at the end and how this is supported in the texts that I > am interested to hear more about. I know it’s a particularly sensitive > topic. > > While it's true that we can never say that kamma is the only cause, > whenever there is 'harm', kamma must have been a major cause as I > understand. > > Best wishes, > Sarah > > (no need to follow up if you'd prefer to leave it for now, of course. > =========================== Oh, I understand now, I think. It was, as along the lines of the Sivaka Sutta, the business of what happens to and in us not being entirely the fruition of our own kamma. Now, my position is that *in a sense* all that happens to us is *in part* the result of our own kamma. Nothing specific that happens to us would happen if we were not "here", having been born into this realm. And the realm of our birth is the result of kamma. So, already, our own kamma *is* a contibuting condition. And, of course, there are many situations where what happens to us internally and "externally" is almost *entirely* the working out of kamma. But, in many cases, the fruition of our kamma is only a minor factor. First of all, even with regard to the realm into which we are born, the conditions "here" are the result of the kamma of multitudes of beings, not just us. And there is a host of other factors such as delineated in the Sivaka Sutta which are strongly contributory to what happens to us. Included among the other factors are the intentional actions of others, the kamma of others.When an angry drunk hits person v ( '"v" for "victim" ;-) over the head with a bottle, the major condition in the event is the drunk's own action, not the kamma that put Mr. v into this world or which may have led him to be on that particular street at that particular time. If v's being hit were solely the fruition of his own kamma, then the drunk would be a hapless pawn in the working out of v's "kammic destiny", and would be, in that sense, innocent! Thus, I see this question of kamma and innocence as a complex/convoluted matter. There are degrees of "innocence" and "guilt" involved. But I particularly oppose the use of the notion of 'kamma' as a justification for blaming the victim, as for example the thousands killed at the WTC in September, the millions killed in the holocaust, or the many rape, assault, and robbery victims in cities across the globe. Does kamma play a role in such cases? Certainly yes, but usually an indirect or tangential one, and usually far from primary. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 8:59pm Subject: India Ch 6 no 1 India Ch 6, no 1Chapter 6 Clinging to Self The Buddha taught that there is no self and therefore it was very appropriate that in all the holy sites Acharn Sujin reminded us of our clinging to a self. She said: ³We say that there is no self, but do we understand by insight knowledge realities as nåma dhamma and as rúpa dhamma? Nobody can change their characteristics, they have no owner. We have to listen in order to understand their characteristics and if there is gradually more understanding, sati will arise. It is the task of sati to be aware, not our task.² We cling to ourselves, to our actions, speech and thoughts, but we do not notice this. When we listen to the Dhamma or read a sutta, is there not an idea of self who is doing this? The test is always at this moment. Only paññå can eliminate clinging to the idea of self and all kinds of lobha, ³we² cannot do this. There are different ways of thinking of ourselves. We may think of ourselves with wrong view, diììhi, or just with clinging that is unaccompanied by wrong view, or with conceit, måna. There are eight types of citta rooted in lobha, lobha-múla-cittas, four of which are accompanied by wrong view and four without wrong view. Conceit can accompany lobha-múla-citta that is without wrong view, but it does not arise all the time with these types of lobha-múla-citta 1. Wrong view is eradicated at the attainment of the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner, sotåpanna. However, he can still think of himself with attachment, or with conceit. We have accumulated these three ways of clinging to self for aeons. Attachment to sense objects, kåmaråga (which is lobha cetasika), wrong view, diììhi, and conceit, måna, are latent tendencies, anusayas, that are very persistent. Latent tendencies are subtle defilements that lie dormant in the citta and do not arise with the citta, but they condition the arising of akusala dhammas time and again. Acharn Sujin referred to a Sutta about lobha in the ³Kindred Sayings² , the ³Resident Pupil² (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, Ch 5, § 150), where lobha is compared to a resident pupil, a companion one lives with, and to a teacher, who tells someone what to do. Lobha is our life-long companion, it follows us everywhere. Lobha can also be compared to a teacher, who, as Acharn Sujin said, suggests going here or there, and who is followed by citta who obeys the teacher. There is seeing and then clinging, there is hearing and then clinging, there is thinking and then clinging. She said that we know the coarse lobha, but not the more subtle lobha. For example, when we are seeing now we may not notice that we like what we see, but still, there may be a subtle clinging to seeing or to visible object. We often do not notice it when there is akusala citta, in particular when attachment or anger are not strong. When our objective is not dåna, síla or bhåvana, our actions, speech and thoughts are motivated by akusala cittas, and these are bound to be lobha-múla-cittas very often. When we, for example, are just daydreaming, we may not notice it when there is lobha. We read in the Sutta of ³The Resident Pupil² that the Buddha said: Without a resident pupil, monks, and without a teacher this righteous life is lived. A monk who dwells with a resident pupil or dwells with a teacher dwells woefully, dwells not at ease. And how, monks, does a monk who has a resident pupil, who has a teacher, not dwell at ease? Herein, monks, in a monk who sees an object with the eye, there arise evil, unprofitable states, memories and aspirations connected with fetters. Evil, unprofitable states are resident, reside in him. Hence he is called ³co-resident². They beset him, those evil, unprofitable states beset him. Therefore he is called ³dwelling with a teacher.² So also with the ear... the tongue... the mind... Thus, monks, a monk who has a resident pupil, who has a teacher dwells not at ease. The opposite has been stated about a monk who dwells without a resident pupil and without a teacher. He dwells at ease. Acharn Sujin asked someone of our group who had gone shopping whether ³the teacher² had told her to go to the market. Everything is dhamma, lobha and dosa are dhamma, but we still consider them as ³my lobha², ³my dosa². 11659 From: Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 7:46pm Subject: feelings Dear dsg, I'm wondering about feelings. What if feelings is the only problem. What if attachment is a feeling. If we just deside to not be attached to feelings, isn't that the end of suffering? Not attached to feelings, aren't issues of self and not self irrevelant to the end of suffering? Anyone know any sources relevant to these ideas? metta, Larry 11660 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 0:06am Subject: Re: feelings Dear Larry, {Emotion}, {Feeling}, {Agitation}. Feeling is the weaker term, and may be of the body or the mind. Emotion is of the mind alone, being the excited action of some inward susceptibility or feeling; As someone very influenced by Vedana 'feelings' (despite my best efforts otherwise), I find this an interesting topic. Try reading "Contemplation of Feeling" translated and with an introduction by Nyanaponika Thera and see what you think......(excerpt below). metta, Christine http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html Contemplation of Feeling The Discourse-Grouping on the Feelings (Vedana-Samyutta) "To feel is everything!" -- so exclaimed a German poet. Though these are rather exuberant words, they do point to the fact that feeling is a key factor in human life. Whether people are fully aware of it or not, their lives are chiefly spent in an unceasing endeavor to increase their pleasant feelings and to avoid unpleasant feelings. All human ambitions and strivings serve that purpose: from the simple joys of a humdrum existence to the power urge of the mighty and the creative joy of the great artist. All that is wanted is to have more and more of pleasant feelings, because they bring with them emotional satisfaction, called happiness. Such happiness may have various levels of coarseness or refinement, and may reach great intensity. These emotions, on their part, will produce many volitions and their actualizations. For the purpose of satisfying the "pleasure principle," many heroic deeds have been performed, and many more unheroic and unscrupulous ones. For providing the means to pleasurable feelings, thousands of industries and services have sprung up, with millions of workers. Technology and applied sciences, too, serve to a large extent the growing demands for sense-enjoyment and comfort. By providing questionable escape routes, these purveyors of emotional and sensual happiness also try to allay painful feelings like fear and anxiety. From this brief purview one may now appreciate the significance of the Buddha's terse saying that "all things converge on feelings." From such a central position of feeling it can also be understood that misconceptions about feelings belong to the twenty Personality Views, where the Aggregate of Feeling (vedana-kkhandha) is in various ways identified with an assumed self. Yet, feeling by itself, in its primary state, is quite neutral when it registers the impact of an object as pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent. Only when emotional or volitional additions are admitted, will there arise desire and love, aversion and hate, anxiety, fear and distorting views. But that need not be so. These admixtures are not inseparable parts of the respective feelings. In fact, many of the weaker impressions we receive during the day stop at the mere registering of a very faint and brief feeling, without any further emotional reaction. This shows that the stopping at the bare feeling is psychologically possible, and that it could also be done intentionally with the help of mindfulness and self-restraint, even in cases when the stimulus to convert feelings into emotions is strong. Through actual experience it can thus be confirmed that the ever-revolving round of Dependent Origination (paticca-samuppada) can be stopped at the point of Feeling, and that there is no inherent necessity that Feeling is followed by Craving. Here we encounter Feeling as a key factor on the path of liberation, and therefore, the Contemplation of Feeling has, in Buddhist tradition, always been highly regarded as an effective aid on that path. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear dsg, > > I'm wondering about feelings. What if feelings is the only problem. What > if attachment is a feeling. If we just deside to not be attached to > feelings, isn't that the end of suffering? Not attached to feelings, > aren't issues of self and not self irrevelant to the end of suffering? > > Anyone know any sources relevant to these ideas? > > metta, Larry 11661 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks for your detailed response Sarah. I’m glad you found it helpful. Kom & Num pointed out one error in the translation of the name: >I think sujin, su + jinta means good though, good imagination. jinta likes >in jintamayapanna.> (Thanks Num - just tried looking ‘jinta’ up in a dict., but I think it’s a Thai-Pali spelling you’re using.....is it not related to ‘citta’?? While we’re on names, if Su-jin is ‘good imagination’, what about Su-kin?) Larry, sorry, I got destracted, may I reply to your other useful questions when I’ve considered.....and after kamma? Thanks. In the meantime, you may like to check the ‘official’ website Kom gave the link for (which I can’t access) for the biography on K.Sujin there. If you find anything else I made a mistake about or anything of special interest, pls let me know. Appreciating all your other good questions and comments to everyone. Sarah ================================================ 11662 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 11:40pm Subject: Avijja and Rebirth Dear Robert, Just re-reading some of your posts on Paticcasamuppada....... Would it be fair to say that, as avijja is the first link in Dependent Origination, avijja "causes" re-birth? [Sometimes I'm not sure about the word 'conditions' - not as clear cut as 'causes']. This probably seems a silly question, but maybe you can understand the thought behind it a little better than I can articulate it. Condition A causes B; therefore, to stop B one should remove A. So, if B is 'birth", and A is "avijja in a previous 'life'", - then the condition for being (re)born is in a past life. How can we cease the round of rebirth if we can't travel back in time to remove the 'already happened' condition? Time doesn't seem so simple - it is often talked about as a succession of moments - but wouldn't the only way to intervene in the links of Paticcasamuppada be if there was no ongoing process of time, just a great 'Now'? I better stop while I'm only incoherent and haven't deteriorated into absolutely garbled.... metta, Christine 11663 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Paticcasamuppada VI --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" > > >... There > > is no knower behind the knowing, no self continuing along the cycle. > There > > are empty factors arising and ceasing bound momentarily only by the > > conditions of the dependent origination itself. > > > > Last Saturday I went for a walk along the Conwy River, it was flowing > fierce with all the recent rains... It made me think about paticcasamuppada > and "self" - There are some similarities with a river, aren't there? A > river is a succession of infinite molecules of water, each molecule causing > the next molecule to follow and take its place. It always looks like "a > river" and like "water" but the water molecules are never the same - even > in the most infinitesimal lapse of time. > > +++++++++++ Dear Lucy, It is just as you say, the matter that composes the river arise and cease, according to the ancient texts, billions in a split second. And mind states even faster. When scientists began to learn about quantum physics and the atom even some of the great ones resisted what they were learning. They were startled to discover that what they had thought were tables and people and even the whole earth was just a conglomeration of changing atoms- 'never the same even in the most infinitesimal lapse of time.' These discoveries are not as radical as what the Buddha found (because there is still an idea that although the atom is changing it is the same atom, or electron or quark or whatever) but is still an amazing accomplishment. It was initially resisted by some: John Zeleny, Yale universities chief physicist, told a minnesaota audience that " I feel that there is real world corresponding to our senses, I believe that Minneapolis is a real city and not simply a city of my dreams" referring to what quantum physics was telling them.(Daniel kelves 1987, The Physicists: the history of a scientific community in modern america cambridge ; harvard. uni. press,p168) This was in about 1930 , but after science incarnated their insights at Hiroshima such doubts stopped. best wishes robert 11664 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import-Howard Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Oh, I understand now, I think. It was, as along the lines of the > Sivaka Sutta, the business of what happens to and in us not being > entirely > the fruition of our own kamma. Now, my position is that *in a sense* all > that > happens to us is *in part* the result of our own kamma. Nothing specific > that > happens to us would happen if we were not "here", having been born into > this > realm. And the realm of our birth is the result of kamma. So, already, > our > own kamma *is* a contibuting condition. Yes.... >And, of course, there are many > situations where what happens to us internally and "externally" is > almost > *entirely* the working out of kamma. I’d like to change the word ‘situations’ for namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena), simply because a ‘situation’ immediately suggests more than a brief momentary experience, I think. > But, in many cases, the fruition of our kamma is only a minor > factor. > First of all, even with regard to the realm into which we are born, the > conditions "here" are the result of the kamma of multitudes of beings, > not > just us. And there is a host of other factors such as delineated in the > Sivaka Sutta which are strongly contributory to what happens to us. > Included > among the other factors are the intentional actions of others, the kamma > of > others. Yes, agreed....very complex and only to be fully understood by the Buddha as just quoted. When an angry drunk hits person v ( '"v" for "victim" ;-) over > the > head with a bottle, the major condition in the event is the drunk's own > action, not the kamma that put Mr. v into this world or which may have > led > him to be on that particular street at that particular time. If v's > being hit > were solely the fruition of his own kamma, then the drunk would be a > hapless > pawn in the working out of v's "kammic destiny", and would be, in that > sense, > innocent! I think that for both the victim and for the drunk, there are so many different experiences and of course a multitude of conditions at work. Still, at the time of being hit, the bodily unpleasant feeling must be a result of kamma with the other factors playing their part. For the drunk at that moment, there must be the intention to hit or harm (akusala kamma) which will probably bring its own result in due course by way of ‘asynchronous’ kamma condition. The cetana (intention) at that moment also conditions the citta (consciousness) and other cetasikas (mental factors) arising with it and also the rupa (physical phenomena) produced then too. For example, the drunk’s bodily and speech intimation and facial features are immediately affected. In other words, although there is a ‘connection’ and ‘relationship, both parties also have their ‘own’ independent kamma, vipaka and other conditions affecting each moment of experience. > Thus, I see this question of kamma and innocence as a > complex/convoluted matter. There are degrees of "innocence" and "guilt" > involved. I’m not sure that the ideas of ‘innocence’ and ‘guilt’ here aren’t wrapped up in an idea of beings rather than any understanding of conditions. It is very complex as you say. In the same passage on ‘kamma’ that Azita quoted from, we read a little later (Milinda’s Questions, 136) that when the Buddha’s foot was ‘torn by a splinter of rock’ that the ‘pain that followed was not produced by any other of the eight casuses...but only by ‘external agency’. Later we read that ‘although the Blessed One never suffered pain which was the result of his own Karma, or brought about the avoidance of dissimilarity (visama-parihaara-gaa), yet he suffered pain from each of the other six causes. And by the pain he could suffer it was not possible to deprive him of life.’................’Well, O king, the Tathagata should be regarded as the broad earth. And as the clod would fall on it irrespective of any act done by it, so also was it irrespective of any act done by him that splinter of rock fell upon his foot’. I find this quite interesting. Of course, kamma remains an essential condition for the rest of us. >But I particularly oppose the use of the notion of 'kamma' as > a > justification for blaming the victim, as for example the thousands > killed at > the WTC in September, the millions killed in the holocaust, or the many > rape, > assault, and robbery victims in cities across the globe. Does kamma play > a > role in such cases? Certainly yes, but usually an indirect or tangential > one, > and usually far from primary. I think that even when kamma and its result, along with all the other conditions plays its part, any ‘blame’ is never justified either. Again, doesn’t the blame suggest an idea of being or self, rather than any understanding of phenomena and conditions? Personally, the more I understand (even intellectually) about realities, conditions and anatta, the less inclination there is to think of ‘guilt’ and ‘innocence’. This doesn’t reduce the extent of the horror of the powerfully unwhoesome deeds and acts or the compassion and sympathy for those who had the misfortune to be in the ‘wrong’ place at the ‘wrong’ time by conditions. Ultimately, kamma and its result are so very brief and momentary but I’m not sure if we can say they are ‘indirect’ or ‘far from primary’ when we talk about specific situations. I’m not sure if it’s even useful to talk about situations rather than about realities;-) Thanks for elaborating and helping me to consider further, Howard. I’d appreciate any further comments from you or anyone else. Sarah ====================================================== 11665 From: tikmok Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear All, The following website has the blibiography of K. Sujin, and also of Nina, as well as the direction to the foundation. http://www.buddhadhamma.com Once at the website, click on the English title to get additional options. kom --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Ratnasuriya)" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Thanks for info on Khun Sujin & the Foundation. > Yes, I'm aware of difficulty in finding way in BKK. > I will contact DSG before next visit. > > Sumane Rathnasuriya > > > > 11666 From: egberdina Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 3:43am Subject: Re: feelings Dear Larry, According to the Abhidhamma, feelings can be of three or five kinds, being either agreeable, disagreeable, neutral in one classification, or mental happiness, unhappiness, indifference, and bodily pain and comfort in another. Feelings are not connected to the objects of the feelings. A further division is applied to happiness, either being associated with sensations (Amisa Sukha) or disassociated from feelings (Niramisa Sukha). There is further the division of Feeling as in the happiness of experiencing (Vedayita Sukha) and as in the happiness of not- experiencing (Avedayita Sukha). The happiness of Nibbana is Vupasama Sukha, which is not-experiencing and not-sensuous. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear dsg, > > I'm wondering about feelings. What if feelings is the only problem. What > if attachment is a feeling. If we just deside to not be attached to > feelings, isn't that the end of suffering? Not attached to feelings, > aren't issues of self and not self irrevelant to the end of suffering? > > Anyone know any sources relevant to these ideas? > > metta, Larry 11667 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: Avijja and Rebirth --- Fine questions, Christine The Dhamma can be summed up as "this being that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises. This not being that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases". Assaji said to sariputta "Of things that arise from a cause, their cause the tathagatha has told and also their cessation, thus teaches the great monk" Ye dhamma hetuppabhava tesm hetum tathagato aha tesanca yo nirodho evamvadi mahasamano Ignorance is given as the the first cause and is often given as a past cause for this current birth but we can also see ignorance as a present cause for future births. If ignorance is erased then so too are future births. The arahant has stopped adding fuel to the fire and so it dies out. The surge (nidanasamyutta 69(9) bodhi p611 "surging ignorance makes formations surge, surging consciousness makes consciousness surge...surging birth causes ageing and death to surge " even so monks receding ignorance makes formaqtions recede, receding formations make consciousness recede......receding birth makes ageing and death recede." Any insight into the khandhas , the ayatanas (six doors), the elements and the way they condition, and are conditioned (paticcasamuppada) is a time when ignorance is receding. best robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Just re-reading some of your posts on Paticcasamuppada....... > > Would it be fair to say that, as avijja is the first link in > Dependent Origination, avijja "causes" re-birth? [Sometimes I'm not > sure about the word 'conditions' - not as clear cut as 'causes']. > This probably seems a silly question, but maybe you can understand > the thought behind it a little better than I can articulate it. > Condition A causes B; therefore, to stop B one should remove A. I gone wrong already?> So, if B is 'birth", and A is "avijja in a > previous 'life'", - then the condition for being (re)born is in a > past life. How can we cease the round of rebirth if we can't travel > back in time to remove the 'already happened' condition? > Time doesn't seem so simple - it is often talked about as a > succession of moments - but wouldn't the only way to intervene in the > links of Paticcasamuppada be if there was no ongoing process of time, > just a great 'Now'? > I better stop while I'm only incoherent and haven't deteriorated > into absolutely garbled.... > > metta, > Christine 11668 From: Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import-Howard Hi, Sarah - Thanks for your detailed reply. I don't see much in the way of disagreement between us on this matter. However, with regard to "I’m not sure if it’s even useful to talk about situations rather than about realities," I would say that depends on the context. If one wants to apply our understanding of the Dhamma to daily life, talking about situations rather than (often unobserved) "realities" is the better way to go, I think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11669 From: frank kuan Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings In the vedana section in the samyutta nikaya, the Buddha breaks down feelings as: 2 types 3 types 6 types 18 types 108 types (might be a 36 types and another one in there too...) I don't know where Abhidhamma gets the 5 types from. By far, the 3 types of feelings occur the most frequently in the pali suttas, which tells me that's the most important one. Looks like Abhidhamma gets 5 by permutating the 2 x 3, where 2 refers to bodily and mental feelings, but throws out "neither pleasant nor painful bodily feelings" to get 5 instead of 6. I personally don't care for the Abhidhamma's classification of 5. It just complicates what can already be a complex issue for buddhists to properly understand. The 3 types is the important one, because even arhats and buddhas are going to experience bodily feelings, but how we react to the 3 types of mental feeling are the key buddhist practice. (See the "2 darts sutta" in SN). I remember early in my buddhist studies, I was confused by whether feelings are mental or physical. It took me a few years to sort that out and realize it's the mental feelings that are important. -fk --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Larry, > > According to the Abhidhamma, feelings can be of > three or five kinds, > being either agreeable, disagreeable, neutral in one > classification, > or mental happiness, unhappiness, indifference, and > bodily pain and > comfort in another. > > Feelings are not connected to the objects of the > feelings. > > A further division is applied to happiness, either > being associated > with sensations (Amisa Sukha) or disassociated from > feelings > (Niramisa Sukha). > > There is further the division of Feeling as in the > happiness of > experiencing (Vedayita Sukha) and as in the > happiness of not- > experiencing (Avedayita Sukha). The happiness of > Nibbana is Vupasama > Sukha, which is not-experiencing and not-sensuous. > > All the best > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Dear dsg, > > > > I'm wondering about feelings. What if feelings is > the only problem. > What > > if attachment is a feeling. If we just deside to > not be attached to > > feelings, isn't that the end of suffering? Not > attached to feelings, > > aren't issues of self and not self irrevelant to > the end of > suffering? > > > > Anyone know any sources relevant to these ideas? > > > > metta, Larry 11670 From: Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:03pm Subject: dhammastudy Dear dsg, Here are a few paragraphs from a book on a sightly different topic. However these comments are completely relevant to the method we are advocating here, i.e. dhammastudy. -------------------------- Humans sometimes communicate in ways that are mutually experienced as profoundly meaningful, and yet seem to surpass our ability to fully grasp them. Conversations, like relationships, command our attention most effectively when they allow--or not infrequently, force--us to go beyond the limits of our previous understanding and to explore new avenues, and new destinations, in communication. Texts are raw material for conversation, with oneself and with others. Studying a text can compel us to reassess unquestioned assumptions, and in so doing, come to a better understanding of others and ourselves. Self-understanding means also understanding our relation to others; understanding relatedness, in the Buddhist sense of relativity, also means self-transcendence. The possibility of self-transcendence is what humans seek in communicating, and is what makes any relationship meaningful in the final analysis. To communicate meaningfully is to be transformed in realizing for oneself, in oneself, or as oneself, what was previously alien or unknown. To know somethong is to be transformed, to become different, and to acquire common ground with others of similar--or different--understanding. What enlivens a conversation is a perceived affinity between oneself and another, or at least the expectation of affinity. Even violent arguments are thus motivated, because expectations of agreement have been frustrated. Commuication is an exchange of meaning, and the most satisfying form of communication occurs when meanings are experienced as shared. This is even true of communications between persons who disagree with one another, and is especially the case in the context of Tibetan scholasticism, where Mahayana Buddhist teachings are a broad and solid common ground for meaningful differences. What makes Buddhist philisophical texts meaningful is the fact that they bring people together in the pursuit of ultimate concerns, in disagreement as well as in agreement. Texts mirror the dominant concerns of particular communities and historical periods. However, to study a text as an artifact embedded in a matrix of historical, cultural, and philosphical significance is only to look *at* it but not *through* it. In communicating it is not words alone--hence also not texts or their interpretations--that are the fundamental source of meaning. Rather, it is the process of communicating shared meanings--and personal differences--that makes philosophy come alive. In other words, viewed historically or psychologically, philosophical significance is a process in which persons (and personal experiences) are most essential, while texts play a subordinate role. It is people who give meaning to texts, not vice versa. The "truth" of presuppositions about ultimate reality does not appear to be fundamentally a question of rational certitude, although Tibetan scholastic traditions tend to understand them that way. Instead it is the process of generating meaning through relativity as relatedness that makes a philosophical point of view meaningful, valuable, and true for one person or another. In this sense there is nothing more or less "true" or significant about Mipham's "Beacon" or Tsongkhapa's "LRC", for example, to the extent that both serve the same function in their respective traditional contexts, namely, to show how reason is employed to realize the ultimate that is known by sublime gnosis. This is not simply a rehashing of the relativist vogue, but is, in my opinion, very much in line with how the Great Perfection (and the "Ratnagotravibha) understand the nature of Dharma (gnosemic) language. Salvific language is said to resonate in accordance with the needs of individuals best suited to understand them, as a spontaneous manifestation of enlightened wisdom and compassionate method. In this sense all philosophies that bring relief to weary minds are equally true, and equally Dharma. from "Mipham's Beacon of Certainty" by John Whitney Pettit 11671 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Personal Note of No Great Import-Azita Dear Azita, Good to hear of your interest in these topics;-) --- azita gill wrote:> > > Dear Sarah, I have only just learnt that not > all we experience is the result of kamma. No, not at all. Conditions and causes are so very complex. I think you’d find it very helpful to read Nina’s ‘Conditions’ to be found on Zolag website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ >Reading > questions and answers from King Milinda and Nagasena, > King M. states: "---for there is no feeling without > kamma. All feeling has its root in kamma and it is on > account of kamma that feeling arises." > Nagasena: "No, great king, not all feeling has its > root in kamma. There are eight causes of the arising > of feelings. Excess of wind, of bile and of phlegm, > the mixture of the 3 bodily fluids, variations in > temperature, stress of circumstances, external agency > [???] and kamma. Just to interrupt, “external agency” here is translated from ‘opakkamika’- this refers to ‘effort on the part of someone else..such as flogging and imprisoning or striking another person, to whom such actions come with suddenness, perhaps unexpectedly.’ >Whoever says it is only kamma that > oppresses beings excludes the other 7 reasons and that > statement of theirs is wrong. [here i'm leaving out > Nagasena's elaboration on the above] > The ignorant go too far when they say that everything > that is experienced is produced as the fruit of kamma. > Without a Buddha's insight no one can ascertain the > extent of the action of kamma." > > I'm amazed that this is so. For a long time I > beleived as King M. To relate it to our abhidhamma studies, we know that sense consciousness, including body consciousness, are vipakacitta (result of kamma) and painful bodily feeling, for example, accompanying body consciousness must therefore also be vipaka (being in the same ‘jati’ or nature). However, there are many other factors and conditions which affect whether any kamma will have any result. Furthermore, there are different kinds of kamma, such as supportive (upatthambaka kamma) or obstructive (upapi.laka kamma) which either prolong the arising of pleasant/ unpleasant feelings or retard the results of other kamma. Many factors such as time and place one is born, beauty and behaviour all condition kamma to bring a result. We can read about these in the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion). We also read about destructive kamma (upaghaataka kamma) which off-sets weaker kamma and brings its own different result. We also tend to forget that vipaka is only one moment. When we talk about a situation or event, there are just brief moments of vipaka citta, followed by many other cittas which are not the result of kamma. For example, there is a brief moment of painful body consciousness when we are injured, followed by many moments of akusala cittas (unwholesome consciousness) accompanied by aversion and unpleasant feeling which are not the result of kamma at all. We tend to mix them all up and think of a ‘story’ and take this for being the result of kamma. (Rob K was discussing many of these points recently as well, but I can’t give a quick ref to his post for now). To repeat your 'key' quote from K.Milinda's Qus: > "Without a Buddha's insight no one can ascertain the > extent of the action of kamma." > Also, Sarah, in an earlier post, you requested a photo > of Zoe and me. I'm not ignoring that request; I > won't see Zoe til May and I'll organise fotos then. > How do I get to view the other fotos???? haven't > worked that one out yet. Azita, we’ll look forward to it....we’re very patient when it comes to photos;-) I think there are one or two other half-promised ones to come too...;-) In the meantime, to view the album, click on the homepage at: http://www.dhammastudy.com/ On the left side, you’ll see a highlighted ‘photos’ to click on. If you have any probs with viewing or pasting in yours, Rob Ep is the best person to help (off-list pls), being the Album-Keeper. Best wishes to any mutual friends, Sarah ==================================================== 11672 From: Victor Yu Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 7:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: freed by insight alone Hello Nina and Eric, I find Bhikkhu Thanissaro's note on Susima Sutta might be of some interest. Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html > We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, that > with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. The Buddha said to > Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for which I blame these five > hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the threefold > knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated > in both ways, and then others are emancipated by insight (alone). " > Thus we can conclude, the majority, 320, only developed insight. Who add the word "alone" in parenthesis above? Regards, Victor 11673 From: Victor Yu Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 3:25pm Subject: This Dhamma is for... This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 Anuruddha Sutta To Anuruddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-030.html#8great 11674 From: Victor Yu Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] conditions for realities Hi Nina, Reply in context below. > op 02-03-2002 16:14 schreef Victor Yu op victoryu@s...: > > > > What are the accumulated conditions for the arising of mindfulness? > > What are the right conditions for the realities to arise? > Dear Victor, > First of all I want to thank you for the sutta quotations you provide us > with so often. They are very valuable and it is so kind of you to take the > trouble pasting them. No problem, and thanks for replying > As always your questions are short and pertinent. > The condiitons for mindfulness: listening to the right person who explains > the Dhamma, deeply considering what we hear, again and again, investigating > in our daily life the dhammas that appear. At first it is intellectual > understanding, and when this is really firm, it is a foundation for the > arising of samma-sati. I found the following passage in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel377.html Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121 Regards, Victor 11675 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 0:31am Subject: Re: Paticcasamuppada (avijja and rebirth) Dear Robert, Apologies if this appears twice. Sent it a while ago and it seems to have vanished. Just re-reading some of your posts on Paticcasamuppada I to VI ...... Would it be fair to say that, as avijja is the first link in Dependent Origination, avijja "causes" re-birth? [Sometimes I'm not sure about the word 'conditions' - not as clear cut as 'causes']. This probably seems a silly question, but maybe you can understand the thought behind it a little better than I can articulate it. Condition A causes B; therefore, to stop B one should remove A. So, if B is 'birth", and A is "avijja in a previous 'life'", - then the condition for being (re)born is in a past life. How can we cease the round of rebirth if we can't travel back in time to remove the 'already happened' condition? Time doesn't seem so simple - it is often talked about as a succession of moments - but wouldn't the only way to intervene in the links of Paticcasamuppada be if there was no ongoing process of time, just a great 'Now'? I better stop while I'm only incoherent and haven't deteriorated into absolutely garbled.... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > > Dear Christine, > I think Ven. Moliyaphagunna didn't lose anything by becoming a monk > and meeting the Buddha. They don't say about his final destination > though...I guess it is unknown. All of us are in samsara together and > so we should develop compassion, metta and mudita and equanimity to > all, even ants and cockroaches. In this case upekka , equanimity is > needed because we cannot help the Venerable: We should try to > understand that conditions work their way, and by each his own kamma > is done. It doesn't help anyone to have sadness about the strife of > samsara - but with more understanding we can find ways to help those > who we might help. > There is the case of saccaka (I think that was his name) who rejected > the teachings on anatta direct from the Buddha. But the commentary > says that a few hundred years later he was reborn in Sri lanka (I > forget his intervening rebirth(s) and became a monk, became an > arahant who could know his past lives . He wasn't fully ready at the > time the Buddha spoke to him, but the words still helped to condition > understanding that finally came to climax. Devadatta is another - he > has a firm prediction to become a Pacekka-Buddha after he emerges > from apaya. So who knows, ven. Moliyaphagunna may be closer than we > think to final nibbana. > The rest of your post speaks of your growing insight to me Christine. > It is never as much as "we" want but we should be grateful for just a > little. You see the objects of satipatthana are just these khandhas > right here and now. The 'sad' khandhas are part of Paticcasamuppada > (sorrow, lamentation.....) ; we should take the chance to understand > them at the moments they arise, they too are conditioned and empty of > self. If we can do that then a barrier lifts and one knows that any > object is fine to study, to insight. And then all of life becomes a > series of opportunities to investigate and we feel much freer because > there is not the same urge to have special objects. One thinks 'let > anything come, it can be known'. ....... Now having said that I > want to add that mostly I want things to be pleasant. I am not as > brave as that statement sounds, I write to encourage myself. > 11676 From: Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This Dhamma is for... Hi, Victor (and all) - In a message dated 3/6/02 6:35:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, victoryu@s... writes: > This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in > non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication. > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > To Anuruddha > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-030.html#8great > ============================= Nice quote. I'm curious about what the Pali is that is translated as 'complication'. I wonder whether it might be 'papanca'. (In that case, 'complication' would not be the only possible translation.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11677 From: Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Dear Christine, Herman, and Frank, Thanks for the many classifications of feeling. Actually what I was interested in is the relationship between vedana and dukkha. Doesn't dukkha=vedana+lobha? If lobha=avijja then anti-lobha=sati. So all we have to do is recognize feelings and buddhahood is assured. Right? Larry 11678 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi Victor and Howard In my own opinion, if a mind is truly mindful, it is called right concentration, resulting there is no difference. Mindfullness is a guardian, it automatically watches our volitions, our behaviour and our thoughts. If the mind is just concentration and not practise mindfullness, then to me is like turfing the path for practising mindfullness. There is nothing wrong in concentration, but too much emphasie on concentration, we miss the point of practise, where mindfullness or whatever pple called it be it vipassana is the the only way to liberation(my opinion). Kind regards Ken O --- Victor Yu wrote: > Hello Howard, > > Yes, I have been thinking about the relation between mindfulness and > concentration since this afternoon as I was reading the messages on d-l > and > dsg. > > Regards, > Victor > > > > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99 > > > Samadhi Sutta > > > Concentration > > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > > For free distribution only. > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ---------- > > > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things > as > > > they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually > is > > > present? > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is > > > inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is > > > inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in > > > dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, > > > or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The ear is > > > inconstant'... 'The nose is inconstant'... 'The tongue is > > > inconstant'... 'The body is inconstant"... > > > > > > "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The intellect is > > > inconstant'... 'Ideas are inconstant'... 'Intellect-consciousness is > > > inconstant'... 'Intellect-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises > > > in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, > > > as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' > > > > > > "So develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns > things > > > as they actually are present." > > > > > > > > > > > =========================== > > Without a doubt concentration supports mindfulness, clear > > comprehension, and the arising of insight. The question is whether > insight > > can arise without more than a modicum of concentration. The > Mahasatipatthana > > Sutta seems to indicate in the affirmative. > > I think concentration is of major importance. But it is a very > > specific question that is being looked at. > > > > With metta, > > Howard 11679 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 8:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Contemplating death Hi Christine Death is a normal process? Is that scary? To me, it is scary bc of our aversion and attachment. Worry abt what happen to us next life? Whatever is our next life, let us worry it during the next life. Since we are already been so many deaths so why suddenly become so scared. We may be deluded in our next lives but remember we never lost our panna accumulations. Live life to the fullest in the present moment be it we know it is akusala. Hitherto, remember from this life onward, your present life and your future lives will be alter due to your own practise of the dhamma in this life. So don't worry, it only adds to our aksuala (or stress):) Beforehand, I used to worry. Nowadays, life comes and goes who knows we will meet again in our future lives. Maybe you are the Buddha and I am just a listener in your audience. this will happen bc I am a lazy man as I am always are. Kind regards Ken O --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > Dear Christine, 11680 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 8:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sati Hi Larry To me sati is a very difficult word to define. Even if we use the word mindfullness, there is still a problem of noting, identifying and recognising. In a way we could say sati is like looking at things objectively without any form of attachment, aversion or delusion. Kind regards Ken O --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Greetings dsg, > > Is the sati that recognizes not-self just a matter of objectivity? > > Larry 11681 From: Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sati Hi Ken, I agree sati is hard to understand. It seems very simple in satipatthana sutta. Something like merely naming. No "in-depth analysis" or even what I would call penetrating insight. There is a quality of thoroughness; maybe that's just the Buddha. Nice to hear from you again, Larry ----------------- >Ken wrote: Hi Larry To me sati is a very difficult word to define. Even if we use the word mindfulness, there is still a problem of noting, identifying and recognising. In a way we could say sati is like looking at things objectively without any form of attachment, aversion or delusion. Kind regards Ken O 11682 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Sarah F, Thank you so much for replying to my note when you’re so busy with your studies and helping friends. I hope you don’t mind if I reply again to your kind and interesting letter in ‘semi-public’;-) You made so many good points and obviously have been considering life and death deeply since the horrible accident. I understand how much you must miss your friends and I think we all feel like this when our dear ones pass on. You said (in your letter to the other friends) that ‘Life sucks’. I think you’re pretty well spot on here. Often it seems like it’s such fun, so enjoyable or so cool, but really the fun is so very short-lived and there’s always a flip-side. Some people find this depresseing, but I think it’s much better to see life for what it is -- so very transitory-- than to go on in the fantasy that the ‘party’ will last forever. I’m just very happy to hear that you learnt some lessons of life from your friends and you see how useless it is to blame Lachlan or anyone else. Your Nana’s words “what can’t be cured, must be endured” are so practical and wise too. I also liked your reminder about not judging people and your mum’s reminder about not letting ‘the sun go down on an argument’. That’s helpful for us all to remember. You mention about the hell for the living, especially for Lachlan and the parents and also for Michael. Life can be hell for us, I agree. I also think that our deeds, thoughts and reactions play a major part in determining whether we will continue to live in hell or whether by ‘letting go’ of our own traumas and difficulties and helping others instead, we are able to overcome this hell. Of course, we’re bound to sink back into our hell from time to time, but if we can see that it’s so often a state of mind or reaction rather than any terrible experience happening to us, I think it can help a lot. Yes, I can tell that both you and your mum are very ‘strong people’ and are always busy thinking of others. It’ll be great to meet you and your brother, Luke. Best wishes, Sarah A p.s Please call me Sarah too as we’re all very informal here. A funny thing about the name...you said your mum only calls you Sarah when you’re in trouble. My mum only calls me Sarah when she disagrees with me.. They did choose the name too;-) ====================================================== 11683 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks for your detailed response Sarah. I'm particularly interested in > the idea that the study of abhidhamma is a practice in itself. You > mentioned that this particular kind of study should be applied to daily > life, thereby differentiating it from an academic study. I also got the > impression that just by listening to it (perhaps reading it) one could > sort of soak it up. > ++++++++++ Dear Larry/ This might be relevant: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm Sitagu sayadaw of burma: "The seven methods of examining Dhamma presented in the seven books of the Abhidhamma; that is to say, 1) the analysis of mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika) and matter (rupa) when taken together, 2) the analysis of the same when distinguished into parts, 3) the analysis of elements, 4) the analysis of individuals, 5) the comparison of doctrines, 6) the analysis of Dhamma into pairs, and 7) the examination of causal relations, are in truth none other than seven exceedingly deep methods of Vipassana practice. For this reason it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the Abhidhamma - this being the teaching of Abhidhamma-Vipassana they had listened to since their ordination - was the very day they mastered the practice of Vipassana. Vipassana is a method of wisdom that searches for truth and peace in diverse ways by observing, inquiring into, and penetrating the nature, the essence, the set order, the absence of being, the selflessness and the ultimately reality of mind and matter. For example, one method of Vipassana accomplishes this goal through ten kinds of knowledge whereby one comes to understand the nature of matter as producing effects in mutual dependence on matter; and similarly, the nature of mind as producing effects in mutual dependence on mind. Another method which achieves the same end; that is, the seeking out and penetration of reality, relies on an ascent through the seven purifications. In both instances, Vipassana and Abhidhamma are identical. Since Vipassana meditation takes the Abhidhamma as its sole object of contemplation, Vipassana and Abhidhamma cannot be separated. And while it may not be said that one can practice Vipassana only after one has mastered the Abhidhamma, Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished. Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana. It is explained in the Abhidhamma that the root causes giving rise to the seven elements of mind and matter are ignorance (avijja), craving (tanha) and volitional action (kamma). It is further pointed out that the supporting conditions for these same seven elements are kamma, mind, climate (utu) and nutriment (ahara). Only by grasping these abhidhammic truths will one possess the knowledge which comprehends conditional relations (paccayapariggahanana), and achieve the purification of mind necessary for overcoming doubt. These excellent benefits are pointed out by paticcasamuppada and pathana. Therefore, since it is the case that Vipassana and Abhidhamma are not separate but are mutually dependent, it is rightly submitted that Vipassana yogis ought not let go of that wise method of learning about the human condition called the Abhidhamma." BTW sujin is BoriharnwaNaket not BoriharnwaNNaket best robert 11684 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks for your detailed response Sarah. I'm particularly interested in > the idea that the study of abhidhamma is a practice in itself. You > mentioned that this particular kind of study should be applied to daily > life, thereby differentiating it from an academic study. I also got the > impression that just by listening to it (perhaps reading it) one could > sort of soak it up. > > This seems very appealing to me, as I'm not a skilful meditator and I > enjoy buddhist academics. The only real problem is how to apply it. What > can we do with an "ultimate reality". To me it's no more than a concept. I think there’s a problem whenever we have the idea of ‘doing’ anything, let alone with ‘an ultimate reality’. The problem is that immediately there’s an idea of changing or altering what has already arisen by conditions. There is the underlying idea that it can be changed and that there is some control over it. In fact, ultimate realities arise by the complexity of conditions and then fall away. This doesn’t mean it’s useless to hear and consider and understand more about their intrinsic nature, however. Right now, by hearing and considering more about these details, gradually there will be more and more conditions for awareness and understanding to develop. (Nina wrote a very useful post on this theme just yesterday or the day before.) It’s true that now when we talk about ‘seeing’ or ‘feeling’ or ‘hardness’, they are concepts. However, they are concepts about ultimate realities which can be tested and known right now. We open our eyes and there is seeing instantly. We experience hardness as we touch the keyboard and different pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feelings are succeeding each other all the time. > In other words, it's not experientially available even though it > actually *is* experience. Kind of like an atom. When you say ultimate reality ‘is experience’, again I think we need to be more precise. As you know, there are 2 kinds of ultimate realities: namas which ‘experience’or are experienced by other namas, i.e. cittas and cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors) and rupas which are only ever experienced (physical phenomena). I think you would find it helpful to take a look at ‘Abhidhamma in Daily Life’ and ‘Cetasikas’, both by Nina and to be found on: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ So what does Ajahn Sujin > mean by "apply the abhidhamma to every-day life"? She means that abhidhamma is 'life' at this moment. Now there is seeing, hearing, feeling, contact, intention and all the other realities we discuss. Applying abhidhamma means developing understanding of these phenomena and learning the difference directly between these and the concepts we take for being real so much of the time. Slowly we understand what realities are and the difference between namas and rupas. Thanks for your questions and interest. Sarah ====================================================== 11685 From: Seylan Bank - DBD (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 10:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Kom, Thank you for the URL Sumane Rathnasuriya -----Original Message----- From: tikmok To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: 06 March 2002 17:20 Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket >Dear All, > >The following website has the blibiography of K. Sujin, and also of Nina, >as well as the direction to the foundation. > >http://www.buddhadhamma.com > 11686 From: Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/6/02 11:26:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn@y... writes: > Hi Victor and Howard > > In my own opinion, if a mind is truly mindful, it is called right > concentration, resulting there is no difference. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: With all respect, I disagree with the literal meaning of what you say here. Right Concentration is specifically defined in the suttas as the first four jhanas. Right Mindfulness is basic to the arising of Right Concentration (and Right Concentration supports mindfulness), but they are not the same. -------------------------------------------------------- Mindfullness is a> > guardian, it automatically watches our volitions, our behaviour and our > thoughts. If the mind is just concentration and not practise > mindfullness, then to me is like turfing the path for practising > mindfullness. There is nothing wrong in concentration, but too much > emphasie on concentration, we miss the point of practise, where > mindfullness or whatever pple called it be it vipassana is the the only > way to liberation(my opinion). > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that mindfulness is preeminent. It is indispensable! It and investigation lead the way, as I see it (on a base of sila). BTW, Nyanaponika Thera wrote a wonderful essay on mindfulness which appears in his superb book The Vision of Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------- > Kind regards > Ken O > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11687 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 1:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Sarah, (Thanks Num - just tried looking ‘jinta’ up in a dict., but I think it’s a Thai-Pali spelling you’re using.....is it not related to ‘citta’?? While we’re on names, if Su-jin is ‘good imagination’, what about Su-kin?) It's Suk-inder in this case. Suk=Sukh=Sukkha=Happiness. Inder=Indra=king of gods. So its "Indra of Happiness". Don't want to say more about it except I think it was a name chosen quite randomly. Best, Sukin(der). 11688 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Partial credit? Re: The Foul and the Beautful Hi Frank, --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Sarah, > Just want to clarify that I do find immense value in > the vipallasa of "seeing the foul as beautiful".It's > something I could use a lot of work on. > I'm really quite adept at seeing "the foul in the > foul". Do I get half credit for that? In fact, in this > world, with it's maras, brahmas, humans, I see no > being whose skill at seeing the negative aspects of > every situation surpasses mine. I can find fault with > anyone, any situation, anything. This is one of two > superpowers that I have. Not sure your examples qualify at all for any credit, let alone superpower status. As for your other superpower, I’m quickly ‘eliminating’ it;-)... > Apologies for my obnoxious insights. I find that > near full moon days I tend to be even more obnoxious > than usual. No wonder the term, lunatics. > p.s. I love this passage from Vsm you quoted: I knew you’d appreciate it;-) I'll leave you and Erik to 'lunatic' insights;-) Thankfully I don’t share your ‘obnoxious insights’ but we do share a love of many of the same suttas. With this and the value you find in the vipallasa mentioned above in mind, let me remind you of the Theri Subha (appropriate name;-)): .......... (Quoting from Nina’s Rupas: The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena) >We read in the “Therigatha” (Psalms of the Sisters, Canto XIV, 71, Subha of Jivaka’s Mango-grove) that the Theri Subha became an anagami (There are four stages of enlightenment. The anagami or “non-returner” has reached the third stage. The arahat has reached the last stage.); she had eradicated clinging to sense objects. A young man, infatuated with the beauty of her eyes, wanted to tempt her. She warned him not to be deluded by the outward appearance of things. In reality there are only elements devoid of self. The Theri said about her eye (vs. 395): What is this eye but a little ball lodged in the fork of a hollow tree, Bubble of film, anointed with tear-brine, exuding slime-drops. Compost wrought in the shape of an eye of manifold aspects?.... The Theri extracted one of her eyes and handed it to him. The impact of her lesson did not fail to cure the young man of his lust. Later on, in the presence of the Buddha, her eye was restored to her. She continued to develop insight and attained arahatship. ********** I find this example of the eradication of attachment to sense objects really sobering. so often we may think we’d like to be enlightened quickly, but are we really interested in ‘giving up’ attachment to all that is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched? In this vein, let me just repeat the words Num recently shared in his helpful post on Rahula ( which also reminds me of Sariputta’s reminders of regarding himself as a ‘dust-rag’): .......... (Quote from Num’s post) >Later, the Buddha taught Ven. Rahula about 4 ariyascca and satiatthana by teaching 5 khandhas, 5 dhatu (4 great elements and space element), practicing according to 5 dhatu, barhmaviraha 4, asubha, aniccasanna(to discard conceit), anapanasati http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/062-maha -rahulovada-e1.htm <<--Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of your mind and stay. Rahula on the earth is dumped, the pure and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, blood, the earth does not loathe those, in the same manner develop a mind similar to earth. When you develop a mind similar to earth, arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold of the mind and stay-->> ********** Thanks for encouraging me to read these passages again, Frank, Speak soon, Sarah ==================================================== 11689 From: Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Dear Frank, Let me say Hi first. Sorry to butt in. <> The 5 types of vedana is mentioned in samyuttanikaya, salayatanavagga in atthasatapariyayavagga, atthhasatasutta. I think these 5 types of vedana are more often mentioned under 5-indriya in suttanta, esp. samyuttanikaya, mahavaravagga: sukhindriya, dukkhindriya, somanassindriya, domanassindriya and uppekhindriya. In abhidhamma, both 5 vedana and indriya are mentioned. Best wishes, Num 11690 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rahula - the fetter : ) robert --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Rob, > > How kind you are....Your thoughtfulness is deeply appreciated. > I will : 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to yourself, take > care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' > No need for concern Rob - I am well aware of (unlikely) emotional > complications, and best of all I work with that 'irreverent mob' who > are also well aware. {I tell them that just the thought of having to > be taken care of by them, is incentive enough to stay perfectly > balanced!} My daughter is grieving normally, and the renewal of old > friendships that had been neglected before the accident, is bringing > happiness. > > I loved the story of Ch'an Master Chao Chou and the General, I had > heard it years ago but could never find it again...I can imagine the > scene - there would have had to have been burning, terror and > killing just to get to that point, and the completely unexpected > reaction from Chao Chou would have been almost incomprehensible to > the General. Though he would have understood and respected the > unvarnished courage. (Or was it courage?......) > > Thanks Rob, > much metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Epstein wrote: > > Dear Christine, > > I used to believe in facing everything head on with a lot of energy > and ploughing > > through obstacles. It took me a while to realize that a lot of the > time this > > approach really obscures what is really happening, and that it > takes more > > sophistication to really sense what is really required. > > > > For your current situation, it makes sense for you to be disturbed > and for you to > > feel unbalanced. I'll indulge in a quick Mahayana story, and then > back to > > Theravada: Ch'an Master Chao Chou was one of the most famous > Masters, he started > > teaching when he was 80 and lived to 120. One day the monastery > was invaded by > > soldiers and they took over. A general broke into the Master's > quarters and stuck > > a sword at his solar plexus, then spoke: 'Do you realize you are > looking at > > someone who could run you through with this sword and not blink an > eye?'. > > Chao-Chou looked back at him and said: 'Do you realize you are > looking at someone > > who could be run through with this sword without blinking an eye?' > The general > > turned around and left and ordered his troops to evacuate the > monastery. > > > > My point is just that most of us are not at this point, and when > bad things happen > > it is going to make us physically shaky for a while and mentally > upset. You are > > probably in shock, and that is a physical condition, and > experiencing trauma. At > > a time like this, these days instead of saying 'work with all that > and work it > > through' I would say instead: 'Be gentle with yourself, be kind to > yourself, take > > care of yourself, and get your strength and stability back.' Then > when you feel a > > little more at ease, you can look at the feelings and state you are > in more easily > > and allow things to heal a little at a time. We can't rush > anything anyway. > > > > So be nice to yourself, and gently allow yourself to become aware > of what's > > happened and how to absorb it. These shocks are tough, aspects of > them take years > > to get through on subtle levels, and it is all part of the > transformation of your > > consciousness towards your destination. That's my feeling anyway. > Take it easy > > on yourself, and things will sort themselves out. > > > > Best Regards, > > Robert Ep. > > > > > 11691 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Sarah, I'll forward this on to SarahF. She is cutting back her days at work, now that Uni has started for the year. And as that is the only place she has computer access for private purposes, it may be a few days before she sees it. Oh, and just one other thing.... I want an Opinion from Jon on "Incitement to giggle about ones' Mother" re this excerpt: A funny > thing about the name...you said your mum only calls you Sarah when you're > in trouble. My mum only calls me Sarah when she disagrees with me.. They > did choose the name too;-)" metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Sarah F, > > Thank you so much for replying to my note when you're so busy with your > studies and helping friends. I hope you don't mind if I reply again to > your kind and interesting letter in `semi-public';-) > > You made so many good points and obviously have been considering life and > death deeply since the horrible accident. I understand how much you must > miss your friends and I think we all feel like this when our dear ones > pass on. > > You said (in your letter to the other friends) that `Life sucks'. I think > you're pretty well spot on here. Often it seems like it's such fun, so > enjoyable or so cool, but really the fun is so very short-lived and > there's always a flip-side. Some people find this depresseing, but I think > it's much better to see life for what it is -- so very transitory-- than > to go on in the fantasy that the `party' will last forever. > > I'm just very happy to hear that you learnt some lessons of life from your > friends and you see how useless it is to blame Lachlan or anyone else. > Your Nana's words "what can't be cured, must be endured" are so practical > and wise too. I also liked your reminder about not judging people and your > mum's reminder about not letting `the sun go down on an argument'. That's > helpful for us all to remember. > > You mention about the hell for the living, especially for Lachlan and the > parents and also for Michael. Life can be hell for us, I agree. I also > think that our deeds, thoughts and reactions play a major part in > determining whether we will continue to live in hell or whether by > `letting go' of our own traumas and difficulties and helping others > instead, we are able to overcome this hell. Of course, we're bound to sink > back into our hell from time to time, but if we can see that it's so often > a state of mind or reaction rather than any terrible experience happening > to us, I think it can help a lot. > > Yes, I can tell that both you and your mum are very `strong people' and > are always busy thinking of others. It'll be great to meet you and your > brother, Luke. > > Best wishes, > Sarah A > > p.s Please call me Sarah too as we're all very informal here. A funny > thing about the name...you said your mum only calls you Sarah when you're > in trouble. My mum only calls me Sarah when she disagrees with me.. They > did choose the name too;-) > ====================================================== > > 11692 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Kom, Christine, Num, Just remembered I meant to thank you all for your comments (and especially for the quotes, Num ). --- tikmok wrote: > Rahula was known to: > 1) be attached to his beautiful characteristics: there is a sutta (with > explanation in the commentary) the Buddha encouraged him to see that > form is impermanent. > 2) develop anapana-sati > 3) reached arahatship after he was ordained a Bikkhu, more than 13 > years after he became a novice > 4) have developed parami for over 100,000 kappas, just as Buddha's > parents (to become his son, and his parents). > 5) Taught by the Buddha when he was a novice to refrain from lying > even when it is for entertainment (joking, teasing, etc.) As se see in 4) above, no quick path for Rahula… I started thinking about 5) above. I'm known amongst my students for being a teacher who jokes a lot (and of course this makes life more fun for us all), but I am aware that there's plenty of unwholesomeness involved too;-( Like the other day when a litle boy was being really naughty and so eventually I put a little fake spider on his book which silenced him for the rest of the class. Of course, the rest of the class and I thought it was very funny, but I think I need to find this sutta to reflect on some more (reference pls). (I'm not sure I'm helping the boy develop much metta towards spiders either;-( ) Kom, thanks for these reminders and like Nina, I really apprciated all your jhana comments. Christine, I'm always fascinated to find out how your mind is working and in this case why you were 'out of the blue' asking for Rahula's life details. After your reflections and sutta references on attachment, fear and death, I understood better. At the end you raised from your "useless questions box' one about not having children and being less subject to fear and attachment..... Of course, as I know you know, the root of attachment is not children or any other 'external' object. the root of course is ignorance as you've been discussing with Rob K. While there are conditions for lots and lots of attachment, it will continue to find objects on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched and thought about.... Thanks again, Sarah =========================== 11693 From: Sarah Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah A from Sarah F Dear Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I'll forward this on to SarahF. She is cutting back her days at > work, now that Uni has started for the year. And as that is the only > place she has computer access for private purposes, it may be a few > days before she sees > it. No hurry at all and pls stress there's no need for a reply unless she'd like to keep writing to us all which of course would be great. > Oh, and just one other thing.... I want an Opinion from Jon > on "Incitement to giggle about ones' Mother" re this excerpt: Snipped out of shame... I expect someone could find me a good sutta about this too......probably almost in the 'spider' category and for the world to see as well. pls feel very free to edit and snip out this or any other nonsense from my post to Sarah F;-) Sarah A. 11694 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 0:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: feelings Dear Larry, I have to admit you're questions are beyond me! I have never been able to do anything but simple equations and yours have become way beyond simple......I really feel Herman, Frank or Others will have more to offer. :-) I can mention an article by Nina entitled "Abhidhamma And Practice" that I think may be helpful for your query in another post on that topic. http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid-pract.html mainly the first eleven pages up to the Appendix on Paramattha Dhammas. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Christine, Herman, and Frank, > > Thanks for the many classifications of feeling. Actually what I was > interested in is the relationship between vedana and dukkha. Doesn't > dukkha=vedana+lobha? If lobha=avijja then anti-lobha=sati. So all we > have to do is recognize feelings and buddhahood is assured. Right? > > Larry 11695 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 0:32am Subject: Re: Contemplating death Hi KenO, (and all), Great to hear from you Ken - I miss your not posting as often as you used to... I think it was not so much my death I felt aversion to, though there was some of that, but having to survive and endure the death of others.... Your comment about not losing our panna accumulations, and that our practice in this life will have consequences in our future lives, is very true. One interesting thing Ken - when I read "Maybe you are the Buddha and I am just a listener in your audience. this will happen bc I am a lazy man as I am always are."- I smiled because you have never seemed lazy to me, and Buddhas are always male........ but then realised that I unknowingly held the belief that I would always be female.......hmmm......I didn't know that about myself before. We aren't fixed in one particular species so I gather we aren't fixed in one particular gender either, are we...? Thanks and metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Death is a normal process? Is that scary? To me, it is scary bc of our > aversion and attachment. Worry abt what happen to us next life? Whatever > is our next life, let us worry it during the next life. Since we are > already been so many deaths so why suddenly become so scared. We may be > deluded in our next lives but remember we never lost our panna > accumulations. Live life to the fullest in the present moment be it we > know it is akusala. Hitherto, remember from this life onward, your > present life and your future lives will be alter due to your own practise > of the dhamma in this life. So don't worry, it only adds to our aksuala > (or stress):) Beforehand, I used to worry. Nowadays, life comes and goes > who knows we will meet again in our future lives. Maybe you are the > Buddha and I am just a listener in your audience. this will happen bc I > am a lazy man as I am always are. > > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > 11696 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 10:00am Subject: India Ch 6, no 3 India, Ch 6, no 3 We learn that all realities are anattå, but we have wrong understanding of anattå. We forget that the reality appearing at this moment is anattå. Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of truthfulness and sincerity. We should be sincere as to our development of understanding and not pretend to know what we do not know yet. Someone asked what an ³upright person² is. Acharn Sujin answered: ³An upright person knows that dhamma is dhamma, non-self. One becomes an upright person by listening, considering and awareness. When satipatthåna arises, and a person is aware of the characteristic that appears, studies it and understands it, he follows the right Path. He is not following another practice, different from the right Path. Gradually he studies realities and understands them, and he is not neglectful, so that insight knowledge can arise. He knows that he cannot select any object of satipatthåna.² She reminded us many times that the development of paññå should be very natural, that we can learn about our own accumulations. We can take life easy, not, of course, as an excuse for akusala, but we should not worry about it. Lobha arises because it is accumulated, otherwise it would not arise. We have to be sincere, truthful. It is good to know our accumulated inclinations. She said: "If akusala does not arise, how can we know that we still have it?" Thus, we can learn from our akusala. This is the way to develop understanding. Acharn Sujin explained in particular the different conditions for the arising of lobha, because it arises more often than we ever thought and we are inclined to take it for self. The Buddha taught twentyfour classes of conditions, paccayas, for the phenomena of our life, so that we can have more understanding of the truth of non-self. Nåma can condition nåma, rúpa can condition rúpa, nåma and rúpa can condition each other in various ways. Citta, cetasika and rúpa cannot arise without conditions. There are several conditions that operate at the same time when a reality arises. The object citta experiences is one of the conditions for the arising of citta. Each citta experiences an object, and there cannot be citta without experiencing an object; the object conditions citta by way of object-condition, årammana-paccaya. Some objects are very desirable and then one gives preponderance to them; they condition the citta by way of object predominance-condition, årammanådhipati-paccaya 2 . Only desirable objects can condition the citta by way of object predominance-condition, not unpleasant objects, such as painful feeling. Wholesomeness such as dåna or the development of right understanding can be object predominance-condition for the kusala citta that esteems it and gives preponderance to it. A desirable object that is experienced can condition lobha by way of object predominance-condition. In the hotels where we stayed there was a large selection of delicious foods displayed on the buffet table in the dining hall. Each one of us selected different dishes. Acharn Sujin said: ³When you go to select food, what conditions the selection? When an object is so very pleasant, you will not let go of it, you want to have it more than anything else. When you see many different things and you select something in particular, this is because of the object predominance-condition, the object conditions one to cling to it. Lobha is so attached to that object.² 11697 From: egberdina Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 2:04am Subject: Re: feelings Dear Larry, I believe that any vedana, thus pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent feeling are dukkha, by virtue of their conditioned and impermanent nature. Understanding and then knowing that vedana is not-self is certainly a step in dispelling the illusions that are interwoven into the myth of our existence. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Christine, Herman, and Frank, > > Thanks for the many classifications of feeling. Actually what I was > interested in is the relationship between vedana and dukkha. Doesn't > dukkha=vedana+lobha? If lobha=avijja then anti-lobha=sati. So all we > have to do is recognize feelings and buddhahood is assured. Right? > > Larry 11698 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg]Kamma was ( A Personal Note of No Great Import-Howard) Dear All, While enjoying Howards' and Sarahs' posts on what is/is not fruition of Kamma,I once again began to wonder just how complex and all encompassing Kamma is. My understanding is that Kamma and its Results is influenced by all strongly willed and intended actions, thoughts and words. With significant happenings in a persons' life ( rape, serious assault, murder), I would find it much more scary if I thought they were just random acts of tragedy or evil, happening to anyone completely by chance - a sort of Lottery of Life. That they are 'fruits' or 'results' of actions in past 'lives' seems fairer somehow. I don't think it needs to mean the perpetrator is a helpless victim of fate, with no choice - perhaps he/she has accumulated a tendency/compulsion to act in a certain way through being frequently willingly involved in unwholesome thoughts/words/actions in the past, but he/she also has the ability to choose not to act, or to choose other actions, than the ones that he/she does. ....(I'm not sure how psychosis fits in here, regarding choice or control...). With regard to national tragedies where comparatively large numbers are killed, isn't it possible that Samsara is so infinitely long (endless formations, endurings and dissolutions of the Universe) that eventually the conditions are right for numerous seeds to ripen in numerous individuals' lives through the same event without it being fatalistic or meaning lack of choice? { For instance, in a much tinier time frame, 15 years ago, I planted broad leaf siratro legume for a dairy cow. The plant didn't survive even a few weeks in the dry sandy loam soil on my land. I thought no more about it, until recently that is, when this vine which had only been lying dormant, found the right conditions (no cow, no wallabies, only a few hares and possums, little slashing, rain at the right time, sun at the right time} and is taking over and choking other plants.} I can easily accept that *people* involved in tragic happenings are no more to blame in the sense of 'deserving' to be 'punished' or in any way being less 'good' than any other 'collection of namas and rupas'. Just that the conditions were right for the seeds of their kamma to ripen.......As will happen with all of us....... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-034.html Nidana Sutta "Causes" "wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence." Selfhood...sequence..... interesting words...... metta Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > Oh, I understand now, I think. It was, as along the lines of the > > Sivaka Sutta, the business of what happens to and in us not being > > entirely > > the fruition of our own kamma. Now, my position is that *in a sense* all > > that > > happens to us is *in part* the result of our own kamma. Nothing specific > > that > > happens to us would happen if we were not "here", having been born into > > this > > realm. And the realm of our birth is the result of kamma. So, already, > > our > > own kamma *is* a contibuting condition. > > Yes.... > > >And, of course, there are many > > situations where what happens to us internally and "externally" is > > almost > > *entirely* the working out of kamma. > > I'd like to change the word `situations' for namas and rupas (mental and > physical phenomena), simply because a `situation' immediately suggests > more than a brief momentary experience, I think. > > > But, in many cases, the fruition of our kamma is only a minor > > factor. > > First of all, even with regard to the realm into which we are born, the > > conditions "here" are the result of the kamma of multitudes of beings, > > not > > just us. And there is a host of other factors such as delineated in the > > Sivaka Sutta which are strongly contributory to what happens to us. > > Included > > among the other factors are the intentional actions of others, the kamma > > of > > others. > > Yes, agreed....very complex and only to be fully understood by the Buddha > as just quoted. > > When an angry drunk hits person v ( '"v" for "victim" ;-) over > > the > > head with a bottle, the major condition in the event is the drunk's own > > action, not the kamma that put Mr. v into this world or which may have > > led > > him to be on that particular street at that particular time. If v's > > being hit > > were solely the fruition of his own kamma, then the drunk would be a > > hapless > > pawn in the working out of v's "kammic destiny", and would be, in that > > sense, > > innocent! > > I think that for both the victim and for the drunk, there are so many > different experiences and of course a multitude of conditions at work. > Still, at the time of being hit, the bodily unpleasant feeling must be a > result of kamma with the other factors playing their part. For the drunk > at that moment, there must be the intention to hit or harm (akusala kamma) > which will probably bring its own result in due course by way of > `asynchronous' kamma condition. The cetana (intention) at that moment also > conditions the citta (consciousness) and other cetasikas (mental factors) > arising with it and also the rupa (physical phenomena) produced then too. > For example, the drunk's bodily and speech intimation and facial features > are immediately affected. In other words, although there is a `connection' > and `relationship, both parties also have their `own' independent kamma, > vipaka and other conditions affecting each moment of experience. > > > Thus, I see this question of kamma and innocence as a > > complex/convoluted matter. There are degrees of "innocence" and "guilt" > > involved. > > I'm not sure that the ideas of `innocence' and `guilt' here aren't wrapped > up in an idea of beings rather than any understanding of conditions. It is > very complex as you say. > > In the same passage on `kamma' that Azita quoted from, we read a little > later (Milinda's Questions, 136) that when the Buddha's foot was `torn by > a splinter of rock' that the `pain that followed was not produced by any > other of the eight casuses...but only by `external agency'. Later we read > that `although the Blessed One never suffered pain which was the result of > his own Karma, or brought about the avoidance of dissimilarity > (visama-parihaara-gaa), yet he suffered pain from each of the other six > causes. And by the pain he could suffer it was not possible to deprive him > of life.'................'Well, O king, the Tathagata should be regarded > as the broad earth. And as the clod would fall on it irrespective of any > act done by it, so also was it irrespective of any act done by him that > splinter of rock fell upon his foot'. > > I find this quite interesting. Of course, kamma remains an essential > condition for the rest of us. > > >But I particularly oppose the use of the notion of 'kamma' as > > a > > justification for blaming the victim, as for example the thousands > > killed at > > the WTC in September, the millions killed in the holocaust, or the many > > rape, > > assault, and robbery victims in cities across the globe. Does kamma play > > a > > role in such cases? Certainly yes, but usually an indirect or tangential > > one, > > and usually far from primary. > > I think that even when kamma and its result, along with all the other > conditions plays its part, any `blame' is never justified either. Again, > doesn't the blame suggest an idea of being or self, rather than any > understanding of phenomena and conditions? Personally, the more I > understand (even intellectually) about realities, conditions and anatta, > the less inclination there is to think of `guilt' and `innocence'. This > doesn't reduce the extent of the horror of the powerfully unwhoesome deeds > and acts or the compassion and sympathy for those who had the misfortune > to be in the `wrong' place at the `wrong' time by conditions. Ultimately, > kamma and its result are so very brief and momentary but I'm not sure if > we can say they are `indirect' or `far from primary' when we talk about > specific situations. I'm not sure if it's even useful to talk about > situations rather than about realities;-) > > Thanks for elaborating and helping me to consider further, Howard. I'd > appreciate any further comments from you or anyone else. > > Sarah > ====================================================== > > 11699 From: egberdina Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 2:54am Subject: Re: jhana Dear Nina, I too appreciated Kom's clear and detailed elaborations (not a negative term) on jhana. I am in no way referring to Kom in my next comment. I disagree that it is necessarily an act of compassion to point out dangers of a path. It can also be ignorance, clinging to view or straight out fear. The following, again, is not in reference to any person. Have you ever seen the neurotic parent inhibiting the young child as it skips about in the playground? Don't do this, don't do that, be careful here, watch out for that, you'll hurt yourself. Is that a compassionate parent? The tragedy is, unless the child develops insight of their own (contrary to the parent), they are likely to do exactly the same to their children. Respectfully Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Kom, I appreciate very much your careful way of explaining the > difficult subject of jhana and the obstacles people may find on their way. > It is compassion to show the difficulties of the attainment of jhana, > because it helps people not to take for jhana what is not jhana. > Nina. 11700 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] This Dhamma is for... Hi Howard, You're right! The Pali for "complication" is papa~nca. Personally, I think (mental) proliferation would be a better translation. The word for "non-complication" is nippapa~nca. Best wishes, Jim > Hi, Victor (and all) - > > In a message dated 3/6/02 6:35:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > victoryu@s... writes: > > > > This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in > > non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication. > > > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > > Anuruddha Sutta > > To Anuruddha > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-030.html#8great > > > ============================= > Nice quote. I'm curious about what the Pali is that is translated as > 'complication'. I wonder whether it might be 'papanca'. (In that case, > 'complication' would not be the only possible translation.) > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11701 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 3:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Sawaddee krap K.Sukin(der); <<(Thanks Num - just tried looking 'jinta' up in a dict., but I think it's a Thai-Pali spelling you're using.....is it not related to 'citta'?? While we're on names, if Su-jin is 'good imagination', what about Su-kin?)>> Yes, you know with the proper name, in Thai there is no strict rule how to spell Thai name in English. With Roman-Pali, I think, it should be spelled "sucinta". And yes cinta and citta should have root in common. Cinta can mean thinking process, way of thinking or at times referred to the heart or the mind as well. (My Pali is very elementary krap.) I have some problem when I write in Roman-Pali from Thai-Pali, there are some guidelines about that, and I have to take a look. <>> I do not know it's a correct translation or not but I like the way you translated it a lot " Indra of Happiness" :))) (big smile). Look very creative to me. Nice name krap. (Hmm, let me say this: a name is a name, and a reality is a reality). Best wishes, Num PS. My mail yesterday took 17 hours to show up on dsg. There are some e-group problems, I guess. 11702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:01am Subject: India, Ch 6, no 4 India, Ch 6, no 4 When we like an object, we may want to have it again and again, not merely once. We accumulate clinging to that particular object. That object conditions clinging by way of object strong dependence-condition, årammanúpanissaya-paccaya 3; it has become a powerful inducement, a cogent reason for lobha. Acharn Sujin said: ³You may like a special kind of fruit, and it will happen again that you like it. That object becomes your strong dependence-condition for continuing to like it; you like it not just once. You want to have it again and again, and this becomes a habit. That is why we like different things.² The teaching of conditions is not theory, we can understand conditions whenever they appear. We can know what object we like in particular and what object can be a strong dependence-condition for liking it. Thus, in the case of clinging, the object predominance-condition indicates that the object is highly desirable so that it conditions lobha to have preference for it. The object that is strong dependence-condition indicates that lobha becomes strongly dependent on it, that it is a cogent reason for lobha. These conditions do not operate only in the case of defilements, but also in the case of kusala citta. There are several more conditions for the arising of lobha in daily life. We accumulate different tendencies, different likes and dislikes, because each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta without any interval. Each citta conditions the succeeding citta by way of proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya 4. That is why all our accumulated tendencies can go on from one citta to the next citta, from life to life. Another condition that concerns the way a preceding citta conditions the succeeding citta is the proximity strong dependence-condition, anantarupanissaya-paccaya 5. This condition is similar to the proximity-condition, but it is not identical. The proximity strong dependence-condition indicates how forcefully a preceding citta can condition the subsequent citta: the preceding citta is a cogent reason for the arising of the subsequent citta. Thus, with regard to proximity-condition and proximity strong dependence-condition there is a difference in the conditioning force that brings about the appropriate effect. When, for example, strong dosa, aversion, arises quite suddenly, we may ask ourselves how that could happen. Our accumulated dosa conditions the arising of dosa at the right time; the preceding citta is then a powerful inducement for the arising of such a degree of dosa at the succeeding moment. It has to happen, it is beyond control, because it is depending on the appropriate conditions. This is also true for lobha, and for kusala. Our accumulated tendencies are carried on from moment to moment in the series of cittas of which our life consist. This series must go on and on from this life to the next life, by way of proximity-condition and by way of proximity strong dependence-condition. Nothing can arrest this chain of life except the dying-consciousness of the arahat, which is not succeeded by rebirth-consciousness. 11703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:02am Subject: Re: Num's interest op 06-03-2002 18:46 schreef Srnsk@a... op Srnsk@a...: > > You asked about my interest in Buddhism. I heard A.Sujin when I > was in hi-school and later on listened to her program. Participating in dsg is very > helpful. I also discuss with Kom once a week. That is very helpful also. The more I listen and read, the more I feel > like I do not know much. > Dear Num, I was glad to read about your interest. Could you sometimes share what you discuss with Kom, that is, if you have time, so that we all can benefit? I have the same feeling as you about not knowing much. After India I better understand the immense difference in level between intellectual understanding and understanding on the level of patipatti, the practice. An example: we read now about the Sivaka sutta, kamma and vipaka, but, what do we know about kamma? It is when insight knowledge arises that there is direct understanding of kammassakata ~naa.na, of kamma and result. Before that we do not really know what vipaka, result, is. At the second stage of insight conditionality of dhammas is directly understood. We can read suttas, we may think and discuss, but the understanding is not deep and thorough. Kom would say, not yet lying next to your bones. But we shall just go on listening and studying, studying as much as we can absorb. I am now studying the Sivaka Sutta in Pali. Maybe, if there is an opportunity, you could ask your aunt also about the difficult points in this sutta? I glanced over the Thai co, and I believe we cannot understand this sutta without the commentary. Best wishes, with appreciation, Nina. 11704 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 8:03am Subject: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Both meditation and proper understanding of dhamma are important, but consider this. Every retreat I've ever done, 3 day, 10 day, formal or alone, the impact it has on the radical reduction of dukkha in my moment to moment experience upon leaving the meditation retreat is far more noticable than months of dhamma study. Every time without fail. Dhamma study can not be neglected, but to me it seems like we have to honestly assess what the proper ratio between right concentration and right understanding to develop/work on in our daily routine. -fk --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear dsg, > > Here are a few paragraphs from a book on a sightly > different topic. > However these comments are completely relevant to > the method we are > advocating here, i.e. dhammastudy. > -------------------------- > Humans sometimes communicate in ways that are > mutually experienced as > profoundly meaningful, and yet seem to surpass our > ability to fully > grasp them. Conversations, like relationships, > command our attention > most effectively when they allow--or not > infrequently, force--us to go > beyond the limits of our previous understanding and > to explore new > avenues, and new destinations, in communication. > Texts are raw material > for conversation, with oneself and with others. > Studying a text can > compel us to reassess unquestioned assumptions, and > in so doing, come to > a better understanding of others and ourselves. > Self-understanding means > also understanding our relation to others; > understanding relatedness, in > the Buddhist sense of relativity, also means > self-transcendence. The > possibility of self-transcendence is what humans > seek in communicating, > and is what makes any relationship meaningful in the > final analysis. > > To communicate meaningfully is to be transformed in > realizing for > oneself, in oneself, or as oneself, what was > previously alien or > unknown. To know somethong is to be transformed, to > become different, > and to acquire common ground with others of > similar--or > different--understanding. What enlivens a > conversation is a perceived > affinity between oneself and another, or at least > the expectation of > affinity. Even violent arguments are thus motivated, > because > expectations of agreement have been frustrated. > Commuication is an > exchange of meaning, and the most satisfying form of > communication > occurs when meanings are experienced as shared. This > is even true of > communications between persons who disagree with one > another, and is > especially the case in the context of Tibetan > scholasticism, where > Mahayana Buddhist teachings are a broad and solid > common ground for > meaningful differences. What makes Buddhist > philisophical texts > meaningful is the fact that they bring people > together in the pursuit of > ultimate concerns, in disagreement as well as in > agreement. > > Texts mirror the dominant concerns of particular > communities and > historical periods. However, to study a text as an > artifact embedded in > a matrix of historical, cultural, and philosphical > significance is only > to look *at* it but not *through* it. In > communicating it is not words > alone--hence also not texts or their > interpretations--that are the > fundamental source of meaning. Rather, it is the > process of > communicating shared meanings--and personal > differences--that makes > philosophy come alive. In other words, viewed > historically or > psychologically, philosophical significance is a > process in which > persons (and personal experiences) are most > essential, while texts play > a subordinate role. It is people who give meaning to > texts, not vice > versa. > > > > The "truth" of presuppositions about ultimate > reality does not appear to > be fundamentally a question of rational certitude, > although Tibetan > scholastic traditions tend to understand them that > way. Instead it is > the process of generating meaning through relativity > as relatedness that > makes a philosophical point of view meaningful, > valuable, and true for > one person or another. > > In this sense there is nothing more or less "true" > or significant about > Mipham's "Beacon" or Tsongkhapa's "LRC", for > example, to the extent that > both serve the same function in their respective > traditional contexts, > namely, to show how reason is employed to realize > the ultimate that is > known by sublime gnosis. This is not simply a > rehashing of the > relativist vogue, but is, in my opinion, very much > in line with how the > Great Perfection (and the "Ratnagotravibha) > understand the nature of > Dharma (gnosemic) language. Salvific language is > said to resonate in > accordance with the needs of individuals best suited > to understand them, > as a spontaneous manifestation of enlightened wisdom > and compassionate > method. In this sense all philosophies that bring > relief to weary minds > are equally true, and equally Dharma. > > from "Mipham's Beacon of Certainty" by John Whitney > Pettit 11705 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] This Dhamma is for... Hi, Jim - Nice to hear from you! In a message dated 3/7/02 11:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, jimanderson_on@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > You're right! The Pali for "complication" is papa~nca. Personally, I think > (mental) proliferation would be a better translation. The word for > "non-complication" is nippapa~nca. > > Best wishes, > Jim > ========================= Ahh. Thank you, Jim. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11706 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 3:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Hi Num, I checked up on the samyutta again today, and found: 1) vedana-samyutta, does mention "5 feelings" in one place, but it defines it as 5 pleasant feelings that arise from the 5 cords of sensual pleasure, which is why I didn't remember it. 2) in indriya-samyutta, I did find a sutta defining the 5 faculties (pleasure faculty, pain faculty, joy faculty, etc.) conforming to that abidhamma definition. The neutral faculty, includes both bodily and mental neutral feelings. You're right, the fact that it's referred to as 5 faculties in the pali suttas is probably why I'm thrown off and not associating it as 5 feelings. -fk --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Frank, > > Let me say Hi first. Sorry to butt in. > > < from. > By far, the 3 types of feelings occur the most > frequently in the pali suttas, which tells me that's > the most important one.>> > > The 5 types of vedana is mentioned in > samyuttanikaya, salayatanavagga in > atthasatapariyayavagga, atthhasatasutta. I think > these 5 types of vedana are > more often mentioned under 5-indriya in suttanta, > esp. samyuttanikaya, > mahavaravagga: sukhindriya, dukkhindriya, > somanassindriya, domanassindriya > and uppekhindriya. > > In abhidhamma, both 5 vedana and indriya are > mentioned. > > Best wishes, > > Num > 11707 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 3:49pm Subject: subconscious influence or just lack of mindfulness? In a discussion group the other day, the topic of subconscious thoughts came up. What is subconscious as understood in modern psychology and how does it relate to buddhism? My understanding is that subconscious thought is thought related to really long term memory unexpectedly rising into immediate awareness. However, it seems that people use the concept of "subconscious" more broadly than it means, or very likely I don't have a complete definition of what it means (in modern psychology). What many people refer to as subconscious motivation to me seems like a simple case of lack of mindfulness. I don't believe consciousness and unconscious activity occur simultaneously. How do you abidhamma people understand this? -fk 11708 From: manji Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 6:35pm Subject: RE: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Right view and understanding applies to the dhamma / paramattha dhamma, not mere conventional thought. These are cultivated in meditation, and much so when wisdom arises with mindfulness whenever the meditation "seems" to have broken, when in fact this is the perfect time for mindfulness, right view, and right thought to be cultivated. This may arise when the meditation is shifted or appears to be broken, but... Is there right view when the meditation is concentrated? Even in the right now moments of jhana, right view is still a trouble spot. Until maybe, for example, knowing (not merely conventional) that this "bliss", this pleasant feeling is not self, changing/impermanent, and dukkha. So... However, even then, is there right view during the very present moment? Right view regarding dhamma? Paramattha dhamma? Perhaps there is conventional dhamma study and "right view" / "right thought" dhamma study. Right now dhamma study. Thanks for the reminder, Manji :) -----Original Message----- From: frank kuan [mailto:fcckuan@y...] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 11:03 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Cc: nsbb Subject: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Both meditation and proper understanding of dhamma are important, but consider this. Every retreat I've ever done, 3 day, 10 day, formal or alone, the impact it has on the radical reduction of dukkha in my moment to moment experience upon leaving the meditation retreat is far more noticable than months of dhamma study. Every time without fail. Dhamma study can not be neglected, but to me it seems like we have to honestly assess what the proper ratio between right concentration and right understanding to develop/work on in our daily routine. -fk --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear dsg, > > Here are a few paragraphs from a book on a sightly > different topic. > However these comments are completely relevant to > the method we are > advocating here, i.e. dhammastudy. > -------------------------- > Humans sometimes communicate in ways that are > mutually experienced as > profoundly meaningful, and yet seem to surpass our > ability to fully > grasp them. Conversations, like relationships, > command our attention > most effectively when they allow--or not > infrequently, force--us to go > beyond the limits of our previous understanding and > to explore new > avenues, and new destinations, in communication. > Texts are raw material > for conversation, with oneself and with others. > Studying a text can > compel us to reassess unquestioned assumptions, and > in so doing, come to > a better understanding of others and ourselves. > Self-understanding means > also understanding our relation to others; > understanding relatedness, in > the Buddhist sense of relativity, also means > self-transcendence. The > possibility of self-transcendence is what humans > seek in communicating, > and is what makes any relationship meaningful in the > final analysis. > > To communicate meaningfully is to be transformed in > realizing for > oneself, in oneself, or as oneself, what was > previously alien or > unknown. To know somethong is to be transformed, to > become different, > and to acquire common ground with others of > similar--or > different--understanding. What enlivens a > conversation is a perceived > affinity between oneself and another, or at least > the expectation of > affinity. Even violent arguments are thus motivated, > because > expectations of agreement have been frustrated. > Commuication is an > exchange of meaning, and the most satisfying form of > communication > occurs when meanings are experienced as shared. This > is even true of > communications between persons who disagree with one > another, and is > especially the case in the context of Tibetan > scholasticism, where > Mahayana Buddhist teachings are a broad and solid > common ground for > meaningful differences. What makes Buddhist > philisophical texts > meaningful is the fact that they bring people > together in the pursuit of > ultimate concerns, in disagreement as well as in > agreement. > > Texts mirror the dominant concerns of particular > communities and > historical periods. However, to study a text as an > artifact embedded in > a matrix of historical, cultural, and philosphical > significance is only > to look *at* it but not *through* it. In > communicating it is not words > alone--hence also not texts or their > interpretations--that are the > fundamental source of meaning. Rather, it is the > process of > communicating shared meanings--and personal > differences--that makes > philosophy come alive. In other words, viewed > historically or > psychologically, philosophical significance is a > process in which > persons (and personal experiences) are most > essential, while texts play > a subordinate role. It is people who give meaning to > texts, not vice > versa. > > > > The "truth" of presuppositions about ultimate > reality does not appear to > be fundamentally a question of rational certitude, > although Tibetan > scholastic traditions tend to understand them that > way. Instead it is > the process of generating meaning through relativity > as relatedness that > makes a philosophical point of view meaningful, > valuable, and true for > one person or another. > > In this sense there is nothing more or less "true" > or significant about > Mipham's "Beacon" or Tsongkhapa's "LRC", for > example, to the extent that > both serve the same function in their respective > traditional contexts, > namely, to show how reason is employed to realize > the ultimate that is > known by sublime gnosis. This is not simply a > rehashing of the > relativist vogue, but is, in my opinion, very much > in line with how the > Great Perfection (and the "Ratnagotravibha) > understand the nature of > Dharma (gnosemic) language. Salvific language is > said to resonate in > accordance with the needs of individuals best suited > to understand them, > as a spontaneous manifestation of enlightened wisdom > and compassionate > method. In this sense all philosophies that bring > relief to weary minds > are equally true, and equally Dharma. > > from "Mipham's Beacon of Certainty" by John Whitney > Pettit 11709 From: manji Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:30pm Subject: RE: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy I think the previous post from Nina Van Gorkom summed it up. "India, Ch 6, no 3" On another note, I think that meditation is a most powerful method for cultivating these mental aspects. Thinking that meditation also has an "empowerment" aspect. Minimizing the frequent shifts of the mind, down to a few objects. So that the contrast between objects becomes extreme. I think this function serves as the basis of mindfulness and other aspects. Kiriya cittas... another story though ;) Then... carrying this meditative mind after a formal sitting. Sati (the dhamma) is carried into the functioning of readjusting during the arising of other citta/cetasika and rupa. Therefore sati, as a paramattha dhamma, definitely serves the function of mindfulness. Then after this conditioning of sati and other mental aspects, we can carry this into right now dhamma study, not mere concepts. Most auspicious I think. -manji- -----Original Message----- From: manji [mailto:manji@s...] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:36 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Right view and understanding applies to the dhamma / paramattha dhamma, not mere conventional thought. These are cultivated in meditation, and much so when wisdom arises with mindfulness whenever the meditation 11710 From: frank kuan Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:40pm Subject: bodily and mental feelings, 5 types vs. 3 mental vedana First of all, I don't claim to have the answers or correct understanding of feeling. There are holes in my understanding and unresolved questions I have on the issue of feeling, as you'll see if you're patient enough to make it through to the end :-) For the sake of argument, let's say that "5 types of feelings" is the definitive and the preferred enumeration of vedana/feeling, instead of the "3 types of mental feeling" which is the most frequently occuring classification in the suttas. Then the question immediately arises, what is the intrinsic difference between bodily pain and mental pain that justifies the extra recognition in this classification? Why do we need to treat bodily painful feeling and mentally painful feeling differently in our buddhist practice? With regard to mentally pleasant feeling, the suttas caution us to note the underlying tendency to lust, the partaking in delight in mentally pleasant feeling is delighting in dukkha, proliferating dukkha, leading to craving, clinging, etc. With regard to mentally painful feeling, the suttas caution us to note the underlying tendency of aversion. So we are mindful of guarding the 6 sense doors, not grasping onto signs and feature, not reacting to pleasant mental feeling with delight and craving, not reacting to painful mental feeling with aversion. Isn't that the same strategy we would use for painful bodily feeling and pleasant bodily feeling? If so, then why make the special effort to call out the bodily vs. mental distinction? Isn't it just redundant then? Another problem I have with differentiating bodily and mental feeling is that for bodily feeling, one gets the impression that there are INHERENTLY painful or INHERENTLY pleasant bodily feelings. But that's clearly not the case. For example, William might slap me in the face with signifigant force, and I'd exclaim, "Hey! That hurts! Why did you do that?" Now suppose one of the cute girls in my yoga class slaps me with the same exact force. My response might be, "Hey baby, I like it when you slap me!" Similar examples can be conceived with bodily pleasant feeling that results in painful mental feeling. So that kind of messes up the "5 types of feeling" model. To account for the subjective mental experience that follows the bodily feeling, we would have to expand the model to 7. 1) bodily painful feeling experienced as pleasant 2) bodily painful feeling experienced as painful 3) bodily pleasant feeling experienced as pleasant 4) bodily pleasant feeling experienced as painful 5) mental pleasant feeling 6) mental painful feeling 7) bodily and mental neutral feeling Since all 7 possibilities converge into those 3 mental feelings anyway, why not cut out the middle man? If the dukkha-eliminating strategy is the same for both bodily and mental feelings, then what value is being added by making the enumeration more complex? Also, since the suttas commonly refer to the 3 types of mental feeling arising at the 6 sense doors, with tactile sensations/bodily sensations being one of those sense doors, that classification with seem to cover the bodily feelings. When the eye and visible objects come together, visual consciousness arises. The meeting of the 3 is contact. With contact as condition, (presumably only mental?) feeling arises. That feeling can be of 3 types. Or is it 5 types? Or is there a lot going on between "contact" and "feeling" behind the scenes that we don't know about? In one sutta, the buddha says, "(after contact), when one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, what one thinks about..." However, it seems like there is perception and other things going on between "contact" and "feeling", not just AFTER "feeling" as stated in the sutta. Without the aggregate of perception, how could bare visual consciousness eventually wind up as a mental feeling of pleasant/painful/neutral type? This is just for the door at the eye sense organ. Going through the same exercise with the "body" sense organ, what exactly is the nature of the nerve stimulus that we "feel"? Is it just bare bodily consciousness? Or as the "5 types of feeling" would imply, is there some intrinsicly painful or pleasant bodily feeling? Since there is such a close intertwined mutual relationship between bodily and mental feeling, and as I pointed out with the example using the eye, there seems to be a lot going on between "contact" and "feeling", all happening within microseconds. What is the abidhamma theory during this interval? How many cittas can occur between contact and feeling? Another question. If the noble ones, enlightened ones really react to bodily painful feelings with detachment, then why did some non-returners/arhats commit suicide when some injury became too painful? (in majjhima nikaya) -fk 11711 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Sarah, Thanks for your reply. A major stumbling block I'm having is what else, if anything, is real besides ultimate realities? Buddhaghosa seems to think his carriage isn't real but the parts of the carriage are real. I understand this is a way of pointing out "not self" because the "whole" is a concept and therefore doesn't really exist except as a concept that fails to point to a reality. However, I don't think we conventionally experience wholeness so we don't mistake it for a self. Plus this model assumes that all compounds are unreal. I know nibbana isn't a compound but what about rupa, citta and cetasika? If a citta isn't made (compounded) where does it come from? Plus again if everything we experience/know is unreal, what do we have to talk about? A short succinct response would be best. My email system doesn't permit a line by line commentary and I find these hard to follow anyway. thanks heaps, Larry 11712 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 9:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi Howard I really do not know how to say why I say it is the same but I try to explain it. As I say, without the pillar of mindfulness there is no concentration and when when we practise concentration, we are practising being in the present moment. Mindful of the present moment. Sucessive awares of such moment is to me the same definition of right concentration. All the four jhanas need sati to be objective, without being sati, there is no way we could even breach from one level of jhana to another bc there are still delusion between each concentration levels. If we are not aware of such successive moments, there is a danger of falling into such delusion that we are liberated hence hampering the progress of the next level. To me, jhana is just successive moment of being sati. Kind regards Ken O --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 3/6/02 11:26:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn@y... writes: > > > > Hi Victor and Howard > > > > In my own opinion, if a mind is truly mindful, it is called right > > concentration, resulting there is no difference. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > With all respect, I disagree with the literal meaning of what you > say > here. Right Concentration is specifically defined in the suttas as the > first > four jhanas. Right Mindfulness is basic to the arising of Right > Concentration > (and Right Concentration supports mindfulness), but they are not the > same. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Mindfullness is a> > > guardian, it automatically watches our volitions, our behaviour and > our > > thoughts. If the mind is just concentration and not practise > > mindfullness, then to me is like turfing the path for practising > > mindfullness. There is nothing wrong in concentration, but too much > > emphasie on concentration, we miss the point of practise, where > > mindfullness or whatever pple called it be it vipassana is the the > only > > way to liberation(my opinion). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that mindfulness is preeminent. It is indispensable! It > and > investigation lead the way, as I see it (on a base of sila). BTW, > Nyanaponika > Thera wrote a wonderful essay on mindfulness which appears in his superb > book > The Vision of Dhamma. > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > ============================= > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a > bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, > a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 11713 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Christine, Sorry if I caused distress. My intention was just to stimulate thought and anything you have to say about feelings and satipatthana and dukkha is just as useful as what anyone else has to say. I always enjoy your emails. Larry ---------------------- >Christine wrote: Dear Larry, I have to admit you're questions are beyond me! I have never been able to do anything but simple equations and yours have become way beyond simple......I really feel Herman, Frank or Others will have more to offer. :-) 11714 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Robert, Thanks for this link. I'll put it on my list of things I need to read. As for the spelling of Khun Sujin's last name, I took it from the dsg home page. There seems to be some variation in the spelling of Thai words (ajahn/acharn for example). I think Num mentioned there is no strict rule for transliterating a Thai name; I wonder if that applies to all Thai words. Also, I wonder if you have any guidelines on how to study abhidhamma. Should I just buy the 7 books and jump in or is there a preferred plan of attack? Larry ----------------- >Robert K wrote: Dear Larry/ This might be relevant: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm Sitagu sayadaw of burma: 11715 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating death Hi Christine, Bc we are attached we felt pain when we see the loss of others even the loss is tragic. to me they are just part and parcel of life. All things come and go. As I always tell my wife, eventually we will part. So what is there to be sorrow abt (no wonder she calls be an unfeeling person less aside the occassionally outburst that I have on my children :)) When are sad or pain in tragic or loss situation, it is only bc of our lack of understanding towards the way life is view in the Buddha's eye. Unless we try to see that this is just the cycle of suffering, there is no end to our sorrow or feeling of loss every time a tragic things happen to us or others. It is easy to talk but hard to do at that momemt. No matter what, one small step is still a step towards liberation. Kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi KenO, (and all), > > Great to hear from you Ken - I miss your not posting as often as you > used to... > > I think it was not so much my death I felt aversion to, though there > was some of that, but having to survive and endure the death of > others.... Your comment about not losing our panna accumulations, and > that our practice in this life will have consequences in our future > lives, is very true. > > One interesting thing Ken - when I read "Maybe you are the Buddha and > I am just a listener in your audience. this will happen bc I am a > lazy man as I am always are."- I smiled because you have never seemed > lazy to me, and Buddhas are always male........ but then realised > that I unknowingly held the belief that I would always be > female.......hmmm......I didn't know that about myself before. > We aren't fixed in one particular species so I gather we aren't fixed > in one particular gender either, are we...? > > Thanks and metta, > Christine > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Death is a normal process? Is that scary? To me, it is scary bc > of our > > aversion and attachment. Worry abt what happen to us next life? > Whatever > > is our next life, let us worry it during the next life. Since we > are > > already been so many deaths so why suddenly become so scared. We > may be > > deluded in our next lives but remember we never lost our panna > > accumulations. Live life to the fullest in the present moment be > it we > > know it is akusala. Hitherto, remember from this life onward, your > > present life and your future lives will be alter due to your own > practise > > of the dhamma in this life. So don't worry, it only adds to our > aksuala > > (or stress):) Beforehand, I used to worry. Nowadays, life comes > and goes > > who knows we will meet again in our future lives. Maybe you are the > > Buddha and I am just a listener in your audience. this will happen > bc I > > am a lazy man as I am always are. > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > Ken O > > > > 11716 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Hi Larry L: Doesn't dukkha=vedana+lobha? k: Yes but is more than that. dukkha = vedana + aversion and also dukkha is also = vedana + moha L: If lobha=avijja then anti-lobha=sati. k: Yes anti-lobha, or in fact anti-moha or anti-aversion the antidote is still sati. Once sati is developed, panna will arise :). So all we > > have to do is recognize feelings and buddhahood is assured. Right? k: Yes if only if we are able to be sati in every successive feelings moment (as feelings are a universal cetasikas). To me, it is easy to describe in an email, but extremely difficult thing to do esp to me at the moment (hmm being too lazy again) Kind regards Ken O 11717 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Herman, I have found in my own experience that pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feelings are dukkha but dukkha is invariably unpleasant feeling. My understanding (probably wrong) is that vedana is more directly bound to dukkha than the other upadana khandha just because dukkha is a feeling more distinctly than it is an image or thought or impulse or sense sensation. (using a variation on the understanding of the khandhas here) So I'm guessing attachment to feeling is the heart of our predicament. Attachment, which I took as lobha, could also be "identifying with" (don't know the pali for this?) in order to bring out the false sense of self. Sati seems to counteract lobha. What is involved in this process is a great mystery to me. Then there is vipassana. Another question mark. Well I'm starting to dissolve. Maybe that's for the best. Thanks for your reply. Larry ------------------- >Herman wrote: Dear Larry, I believe that any vedana, thus pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent feeling are dukkha, by virtue of their conditioned and impermanent nature. Understanding and then knowing that vedana is not-self is certainly a step in dispelling the illusions that are interwoven into the myth of our existence. All the best Herman 11718 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Larry, Here goes with the 'short succinct' reply;-) 1. Only ultimate realities are real, i.e. namas and rupas 2. Concepts are not ultimate realities 3. rupa, citta and cetasikas (i.e. namas and rupas) are conditioned or compounded 4. Nibbana is the one ultimate reality which is not conditioned 5. Only ultimate realities actually exist at this moment, but because of ignorance we take concepts --including self-- to actually exist. In fact they are a figment of the imagination only. 6. You say we don't 'conventionally experience wholeness', but what about everytime we think there' s a hand, a finger, a keyboard, a screen, some writing and so on? 7. You ask 'what do we have to talk about?' We could talk about ultimate realties in more detail for a start.... Hope this passes your email system;-) Thanks for mentioning your request. Sarah ================================================= --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply. A major stumbling block I'm having is what else, > if anything, is real besides ultimate realities? > > Buddhaghosa seems to think his carriage isn't real but the parts of the > carriage are real. I understand this is a way of pointing out "not self" > because the "whole" is a concept and therefore doesn't really exist > except as a concept that fails to point to a reality. However, I don't > think we conventionally experience wholeness so we don't mistake it for > a self. Plus this model assumes that all compounds are unreal. I know > nibbana isn't a compound but what about rupa, citta and cetasika? If a > citta isn't made (compounded) where does it come from? Plus again if > everything we experience/know is unreal, what do we have to talk about? > > A short succinct response would be best. My email system doesn't permit > a line by line commentary and I find these hard to follow anyway. > > thanks heaps, Larry 11719 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 10:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Hi Ken, I agree, especially what you said about it being very difficult to be aware of every feeling. I tried doing that and it caused _more_ dukkha :-))) Larry ----------------------- >Ken wrote: Hi Larry L: Doesn't dukkha=vedana+lobha? k: Yes but is more than that. dukkha = vedana + aversion and also dukkha is also = vedana + moha L: If lobha=avijja then anti-lobha=sati. k: Yes anti-lobha, or in fact anti-moha or anti-aversion the antidote is still sati. Once sati is developed, panna will arise :). So all we have to do is recognize feelings and buddhahood is assured. Right? k: Yes if only if we are able to be sati in every successive feelings moment (as feelings are a universal cetasikas). To me, it is easy to describe in an email, but extremely difficult thing to do esp to me at the moment (hmm being too lazy again) Kind regards Ken O 11720 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 11:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah [mailto:sarahdhhk@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:34 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Rahula - the fetter > > > Dear Kom, Christine, Num, > > Just remembered I meant to thank you all for your > comments (and especially > for the quotes, Num ). > > --- tikmok wrote: > > some more (reference pls). (I'm not sure > I'm helping the boy develop > much metta towards spiders either;-( ) > This is from: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn061.html Also other suttas on Rahula: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/sn p2-11.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/theragatha/tha g04.html#8 Thanks for telling us the story about the boy. It reminds me that as long as we (we, meaning I!) haven't eradicated the kilesas completely, we will continue to commit akusala (and kusala) of the various degrees according to the conditions. We are lucky in this life to have the opportunity to listen to the true dhamma which is a condition for a temporary attenuation of some of the kilesas (according to one's accumulations!), but as long as we are still a non-ariyan, we still have the conditions to commit *any* kinds of akusalas, even one with the most severe consequences (anantariya kamma). kom 11721 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 6:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: feelings Hi again Frank and everyone; Quick post, OK. Let me bring up the sutta first. Sallatha Sutta, salayatanavagga-samyuttanikaya http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-006.html#shot _____________________ The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. ____________________ <> May I also say the same thing. This is just my opinion, OK. <> I think sutta, at least sallathasutta, reminds us to watch and discard all kinds of vedana, both bodily and mentally. My note is the Buddha stressed on Vedana a lot: it is standing out in one of the 5 khandha, 1 of the 12 links in paticcasamuppada, 5 of the 22 indriya, 1 in 4 main satipatthana and somewhat indirectly mentioned under 18 dhatu and 12 ayatana. In paticcasamupada tanha comes right after vedana. Why? I guess the Buddha saw some important point about that and that why he mentioned it in different various aspects (naya) and very in detail. <> From the sutta I think there are some very useful points. We do not have to shoot ourselves with the 2nd, 3rd and and Nth arrows. My understanding is bodily sensation occurs in vipaka-citta, but mentally aversion is akusala-kamma. Domanassa-vedana(mental) occurs only with dosa-mula-citta, citta rooted in aversion, while dukkha-vedana occurs only in kaya-vinnana-citta(bodily vipaka, vipaka-citta in itself is neither kusala or akusala). OK, better stop now. I may not be able to response for a while. Best wishes, Num 11722 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 6:12pm Subject: Re:[dsg] Ayatanas revisited Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert and everyone May I ask quick follow-up questions about ayatana, kind of theoretical. Sarah, it was not clear from your post, so you said that all citta are manayatana not only bhavanga citta, correct? I also saw that in some places mentioned that only bhavanga-citta is manayatana, as I understand it refers to manodvara not manayatana. If citta has pasadarupa as its aramana, can we call pasadarupa at that moment dhammayatana. The same thing if one can have others or even one's own (previous) citta as arammana, can we call that citta dhammayatana ??? Appreciate. Num PS. I may not be able to access to computer for couple days. 11723 From: Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 6:13pm Subject: Re:[dsg] Paticcasamuppada Dear Robert, Nina and everyone, May I also ask you about the different approaches to Paticcasamupada. I mean, form what I read in vibanga, sound like there are 2 approaches, which are somewhat mutually supportive but also somewhat different. I am still not clear. According to suttantapajani, sounds to me like it's talking about link across bhava (rebirth) and jati. In abhidhammapajani seems to talk about single moment of citta (sampayutta-catuka and annamanna-catuka). But later in abidhammapajani also talks about avijjamulaka-kulasaniddesa (kusala has avijja as paccaya, upanissayapaccaya? ), kusalamulaka- and akusalamulaka-vipakaniddesa (upanissaya and previous nanakhanika-kammapaccaya??) In suttantapajani, the word "sankara", which is a plural noun, is used while in abhidhammapajani the word "sankaro", which is a singular noun, is used. Why is that? Ven.Nyantilotika said that it is because in suttanta seems to focus on the link across bhava and jati and abhidhamma seems to focus on both single khana-citta as well as across citta from paccaya aspect? What do you think? Appreciate. Num 11724 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 11:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana Dear Herman, Pls excuse me for butting in here.... --- egberdina wrote: > > I disagree that it is necessarily an act of compassion to point out > dangers of a path. It can also be ignorance, clinging to view or > straight out fear. Very true. It could also be out of almost any kind of motive. > The following, again, is not in reference to any person. Have you > ever seen the neurotic parent inhibiting the young child as it skips > about in the playground? Don't do this, don't do that, be careful > here, watch out for that, you'll hurt yourself. Is that a > compassionate parent? Good points. Now let’s say that young child watches a progamme on TV about mountain climbing and decides he/she wishes to climb Mt Everest at the weekend. Would it be compassionate to say ‘great, go ahead, many people succeed’ or would it be more compassionate and kinder to say ‘let’s look at what that would really involve’and ‘how about making a start now on the hill by our house instead?’ > > The tragedy is, unless the child develops insight of their own > (contrary to the parent), they are likely to do exactly the same to > their children. So perhaps we’re back again to the “Middle Path’ of understanding different phenomena at this moment, so that we learn a realistic approach to our abilities and limitations. In this way we can help others to do the same as best we can. I know this may sound a little flippant, but it’s not meant to..... OK I'll keep quiet until after my busy teaching weekend;-) Sarah p.s. I’m appreciating your comments on vedana (feelings) to Larry ====================================================== 11725 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 0:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: feelings Hi Larry Let me assure you that absolutely no distress was caused at all.... you always ask something I want answered, or something I've never thought about until you mention it and it catches my interest. I'm a relative beginner too, and though I can write descriptively, I have very little buddhist knowledge, and what I do have is still rather shallow....so, as soon as questions get a little complicated (as with your further questions on Feelings), I look hopefully to the more knowledgeable members of the List..... Look forward to enjoying more of your questions, and contributing when I can. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Christine, > > Sorry if I caused distress. My intention was just to stimulate thought > and anything you have to say about feelings and satipatthana and dukkha > is just as useful as what anyone else has to say. I always enjoy your > emails. > > Larry > ---------------------- > >Christine wrote: > Dear Larry, > I have to admit you're questions are beyond me! I have never been able > to do anything but simple equations and yours have become way beyond > simple......I really feel Herman, Frank or Others will have more to > offer. :-) 11726 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 0:31am Subject: Re: Contemplating death Hi Ken O, Yes, attachment, impermanence, dukkha. - all things come and go.... I am a little more aware of that now than I was a year or two ago. Or, at least, I eventually remember it, usually after I've reacted emotionally to something. But occasionally, I am starting to be aware as feelings are rising....hope that's the one small step towards liberation that you mentioned......the difficulty is getting from intellectually understanding something, to "knowing" it. And it is the "knowing" of it that is necessary before it becomes an automatic response. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Bc we are attached we felt pain when we see the loss of others even the > loss is tragic. to me they are just part and parcel of life. All things > come and go. As I always tell my wife, eventually we will part. So what > is there to be sorrow abt (no wonder she calls be an unfeeling person less > aside the occassionally outburst that I have on my children :)) > > When are sad or pain in tragic or loss situation, it is only bc of our > lack of understanding towards the way life is view in the Buddha's eye. > Unless we try to see that this is just the cycle of suffering, there is no > end to our sorrow or feeling of loss every time a tragic things happen to > us or others. It is easy to talk but hard to do at that momemt. No > matter what, one small step is still a step towards liberation. > > > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 11727 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 1:30am Subject: Re:[dsg] Paticcasamuppada (single moment) ---Dear Num, What you write looks correct to me. Here is some quotes from the commentary to the vibhanga which might interest you> The Sammohavinodani by Buddhaghosa- (translated as The Dispeller of Delusion, > >Pali Text society)p244 "and now, because this structure of conditions > >exists not only in a plurality of consciousnesses but also in a single > >consciousness, he said avijjapaccaya sankharo (with ignorance as > >condition, a formation arises) and so on thus setting forth the schedule in > >order to teach, as to its various aspects, the structure of conditions of > >a single conscious moment"endquote > _______________________________________ This is explained on pages 244 - 254. It is hard to read in English and the translators give almost no notes. I am not very clear either. I will write a little to give some clues: p245 "Twelve membered section with two members incomplete" because it is stated with mentality in the place of mentailty-materialty (nama- rupa) and sixth base in place of the six-fold base. " This is because in one moment we can't have all 6 sense bases working simultaneously. p246 "and because only a single kind of contact is composed within a single conscious moment here, therefore taking the appropriate sense base as its condition, it is said "with mentality as condition the sense base' giving the mind base alone in the place of the 6fold base. p246 "instead of saying 'formations'[in the plural] as in the Suttanta division, sankharo [a formation] is said in the singular. Why is that? Because it refers to single conscious moments. For there [in the Suttanta division] the structure of conditions of a number of conscious moments is explained. here that of a single conscious moment is undertaken. And since there is not a plurality of volitions in a single conscious moment, 'formation' is said instead of saying formations" p246 "And admittedly the clause 'with a formation as condition, consciousness' is also stated here; but for the purpose of showing the distinction between cause and fruit and for the purpose of completing the factors it is taken again here. For there a formation(sankharo) in particular is the cause of that, and mentality in general is the fruit. But here mentality in general is its cause and contact in particular is the fruit. But because sorrow lamentation etc are not all produced in a single conscious moment , and do not occur in every instance where consciousness occurs or in every consciousness, there fore they are not included. But birth, ageing and death , although not measurable by conscious moments,a re nevertheless included because they exist within the conscious moment, and also for the purpose of completing the factors."endquote ------ Iggleden in his introduction to the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis, Pali text society)writes about the Paticca. section : p xxxviii "the whole system of analysis with its very specific definitions is designed to show that in the same way as the general cyclic continuity of process, stated in the suttanta analysis, applies to existence as a whole, so also the arising of one state of consciousness as being dependent for its becoming to be on the resultant of a preceeding state, and that the resultant of that present state is to be the root cause of a future conscious state, demonstrates the action of that same law. Paticcasammuppada exemplifies most clearly the selfcontainedness of the Buddha's teaching. External agency does not come into the question of existence, either in its broadest or in its most detailed aspects. All is the working of Causal relationship, automatic, capable of infinite variety and of incomparable continuity. Only the Buddha's have shown how this continuity is to be broken."endquote There is a lot more but perhaps this is enough to think about for now. best robert In dhammastudygroup@y..., srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Robert, Nina and everyone, > > May I also ask you about the different approaches to Paticcasamupada. I mean, > form what I read in vibanga, sound like there are 2 approaches, which are > somewhat mutually supportive but also somewhat different. I am still not > clear. > > According to suttantapajani, sounds to me like it's talking about link across > bhava (rebirth) and jati. In abhidhammapajani seems to talk about single > moment of citta (sampayutta-catuka and annamanna-catuka). But later in > abidhammapajani also talks about avijjamulaka-kulasaniddesa (kusala has > avijja as paccaya, upanissayapaccaya? ), kusalamulaka- and > akusalamulaka-vipakaniddesa (upanissaya and previous > nanakhanika-kammapaccaya??) > > In suttantapajani, the word "sankara", which is a plural noun, is used while > in abhidhammapajani the word "sankaro", which is a singular noun, is used. > Why is that? Ven.Nyantilotika said that it is because in suttanta seems to > focus on the link across bhava and jati and abhidhamma seems to focus on both > single khana-citta as well as across citta from paccaya aspect? What do you > think? > > Appreciate. > > Num 11728 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 2:33am Subject: Samvega Dear Sarah & Jon, and All, Dear All, A couple of articles on death, further to the recent posts on death contemplation...... Sarah & Jon - with regard to 'Samvega' mentioned briefly in BKK - it seems common (?) in the context of an experience of death......... (mentioned in Bhikku Thitapunnos' article below) "The many kinds of suffering experienced by sentient beings in general, and on account of death in particular, may trigger the motivation for the emergence of a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) and may be the cause for the arising of faith (saddha). When these are present, an individual may embark in a search for answers that may be conducive to the end of suffering and death." http://www.hundredmountain.com/Pages/siteindex.html scroll down to DharmaTalking "What is this thing called Death" by Bhikku Thitapunno Winter/01 and, "Keeping an eye on Death: A Dharma talk by Bhante Rahula: Winter/00 metta, Christine 11729 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 3:09am Subject: Re: bodily and mental feelings, 5 types vs. 3 mental vedana ---Dear Frank, Very briefly: In dhammastudygroup@y..., frank kuan wrote: > > Another question. If the noble ones, enlightened ones > really react to bodily painful feelings with > detachment, then why did some non-returners/arhats > commit suicide when some injury became too painful? > (in majjhima nikaya) ______________________ How could it be that an anagami or arhant could commit suicide for the reason you give. They do not have dosa at all - even when there is intense painful feeling through the bodysense. No examples given in the texts of such a suicide happening, although there is the case of a putthujhana(unenlightened) monk who cut his throat, found himself reacting to the pain, realised he was not enlightened and usd the pain as an object for insight. In the short time before he bled to death he went through the 4 stages of insight and became an arahant.Perhaps you were thinking of this in your example above. best roberte > > -fk 11730 From: egberdina Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 3:36am Subject: Re: jhana Dear Sarah, I accept what you are saying. But....... The Internet is an undirected and anonymous medium. The things that are posted here are seen by beginners, apprentice beginners and sub- junior apprentice beginners alike. And the people out there in Internet Land have no way of knowing who are the mountain climbers, and who the couch potatoes are. What are the main dangers of following the Buddha's instructions? Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Pls excuse me for butting in here.... > > --- egberdina wrote: > > > I disagree that it is necessarily an act of compassion to point out > > dangers of a path. It can also be ignorance, clinging to view or > > straight out fear. > > Very true. It could also be out of almost any kind of motive. > > > The following, again, is not in reference to any person. Have you > > ever seen the neurotic parent inhibiting the young child as it skips > > about in the playground? Don't do this, don't do that, be careful > > here, watch out for that, you'll hurt yourself. Is that a > > compassionate parent? > > Good points. Now let's say that young child watches a progamme on TV about > mountain climbing and decides he/she wishes to climb Mt Everest at the > weekend. Would it be compassionate to say `great, go ahead, many people > succeed' or would it be more compassionate and kinder to say `let's look > at what that would really involve'and `how about making a start now on the > hill by our house instead?' > > > > The tragedy is, unless the child develops insight of their own > > (contrary to the parent), they are likely to do exactly the same to > > their children. > > So perhaps we're back again to the "Middle Path' of understanding > different phenomena at this moment, so that we learn a realistic approach > to our abilities and limitations. In this way we can help others to do the > same as best we can. > > I know this may sound a little flippant, but it's not meant to..... > > OK I'll keep quiet until after my busy teaching weekend;-) > > Sarah > > p.s. I'm appreciating your comments on vedana (feelings) to Larry > ====================================================== > > > 11731 From: egberdina Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 3:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: feelings Dear Larry, I believe that any attachment at all is a case of mistaken identity. And so is any aversion. This consciousness is dukkha. This perception is dukkha. This feeling is dukkha. This body is dukkha. This sati is dukkha. This panna is dukkha. This jhana citta is dukkha. Yes, even chocolate mud cake and cream is dukkha (hard to believe, I know) Catch you later Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Herman, > > I have found in my own experience that pleasant, unpleasant and neutral > feelings are dukkha but dukkha is invariably unpleasant feeling. My > understanding (probably wrong) is that vedana is more directly bound to > dukkha than the other upadana khandha just because dukkha is a feeling > more distinctly than it is an image or thought or impulse or sense > sensation. (using a variation on the understanding of the khandhas here) > > So I'm guessing attachment to feeling is the heart of our predicament. > Attachment, which I took as lobha, could also be "identifying with" > (don't know the pali for this?) in order to bring out the false sense of > self. > > Sati seems to counteract lobha. What is involved in this process is a > great mystery to me. > > Then there is vipassana. Another question mark. > > Well I'm starting to dissolve. Maybe that's for the best. Thanks for > your reply. > > Larry > ------------------- > >Herman wrote: > Dear Larry, > I believe that any vedana, thus pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent > feeling are dukkha, by virtue of their conditioned and impermanent > nature. > Understanding and then knowing that vedana is not-self is certainly a > step in dispelling the illusions that are interwoven into the myth of > our existence. > All the best > Herman 11732 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 9:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > Also, I wonder if you have any guidelines on how > to study abhidhamma. > Should I just buy the 7 books and jump in or is > there a preferred plan > of attack? I think whatever you decide to do, it's important to have somebody to correspond with and ask questions on the points that you don't understand or would prefer to have clarifications. People reacts to the abhidhamma tipitakas differently. Num loves it and seems to be able to read through it, but he also has his aunt helping him understand the knotty passages. I can only read a short passage from the Abhidhamma tipitakas at any point of time, although my attention span lasts a little longer when I read from derived works (such as Nina's or K. Sujin's or others') that I have fewer problems with the language. I personally would recommend that people read K. Sujin and Nina's works (Survey of Paramatha Dhamma, Abhiddhamma in Daily Life, Cetasikas) to get the basic ideas of Namas/Rupas, Realities/Concepts, Kusala/Akusala, etc. first. I would have been even more discouranged had I started on the Abhidhamma tipitakas first (especially if without the commentaries) because on first glance, it may feel like a list of stuffs. Nina gave many wonderful examples in her books for the different topics under the study, which makes it easier to contemplate what the topics is all about. Besides, most of Nina's work is free. But eventually, you will have to read the tipitakas for yourself... Just an opinion. kom 11733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 10:01am Subject: Susima Sutta Hello Victor, There are many texts explaining the different ways ariyans are liberated, and this shows that people¹s accumulations are diverse. We have to look into the context in order to understand what is meant by liberated by wisdom, liberated in both ways. I find that it is not easy at all to understand such texts. Ven. Henepola, see below, carefully describes all the different groups of people and their attainments, mentioning the sources. We read in the Wheel 351-353, The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation, by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, p. 70: end quote. If we go back to the Sutta, we see that the Buddha taught Susima the three characteristics of realities, beginning with, , and after that the Dependent Origination. In the Commentary it was said that the monks were nijjhaanakaa sukkhavipassakaa: here we see the meaning of contemplation in the sense of contemplation of the three characteristics in vipassana, as was previously brought forward by Robert and also by me: two meanings of nijjhaana (also the term upanijjhaana is used in other texts) or jhaana. We read in the Commentary, that the Buddha said to Susima that the Path, magga and the Fruition, phala, are not the result of concentration, samadhi, but that they are the result of vipassana. After the Buddha¹s teaching Susima became an arahat. The Buddha did not teach him to attain jhana first. It is also said, in the beginning of the Sutta that there were many monks with the Buddha. Thus, many monks were sukkhavipassaka. I do not deny that in many Suttas the Buddha praised jhana, but to whom did he speak? To people who had accumulations for it. I quoted the Susima Sutta to show that it is not absolutely necessary for everybody to first develop a high degree of concentration and then vipassana. The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. Incidentally, according to Ven. Hennepola, there are five groups of pa~n~naavimutta, and one of these is dry insight, four have attained rupajhana. Best wishes from Nina. Victor wrote: I find Bhikkhu Thanissaro's note on Susima Sutta might be of some interest. Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening. 11734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 10:01am Subject: India Ch 6, no 5 India Ch 6, no 5 The wholesome and unwholesome tendencies we accumulate today condition future moments of kusala citta and akusala citta. They condition these by way of natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya-paccaya 6, another condition among the twentyfour classes of conditions. We think of kusala and akusala that we performed as ³ours², but they are just dhammas, devoid of self, that arise because of their own conditions. We see that people have different manners, different ways of walking or sitting. This is due to experiences and tendencies accumulated in the past. Thus, there are three kinds of strong dependence-condition: object strong dependence-condition proximity strong dependence-condition natural strong dependence-condition The Buddha realized the conditions for all phenomena of life thoroughly when he attained Buddhahood. All these conditions are realities, not terms, but the terms are needed to explain realities. When we listen to the Dhamma the tendency to listen and to consider what we hear is accumulated from moment to moment. Right understanding can become an object strong dependence-condition: we see the value of understanding based on listening and this conditions us to listen again and again. We accumulate the tendency to listen and to consider what we hear, this becomes a natural strong dependence-condition for right understanding. The different conditions that play their part in our life are very intricate. Understanding that arises with the citta can condition the arising of a succeeding moment of understanding, not only by way of proximity condition, but also by way of proximity strong dependence-condition, anantarupanissaya-paccaya. The accumulation of sobhana cetasikas such as confidence, saddhå and mindfulness, sati, and other wholesome qualities may be ready to condition that very moment of paññå. When the accumulated conditions are sufficient they can condition higher levels of paññå: stages of insight knowledge and even lokuttara (supramundane) paññå, arising at the attainment of enlightenment, but ³we² cannot induce this. It is most valuable to understand more about the different kinds of conditions that play their part in our life. This understanding will prevent us from following the wrong Path and it will help us to realize this moment as non-self, no matter it is kusala or akusala. The Buddha exhorted people to eradicate akusala and to develop kusala, but can ³we² do this? Acharn Sujin said: ³Is it correct to say that a self can eradicate akusala and develop kusala? Kusala is dhamma and akusala is dhamma, they arise because of their appropriate conditions. One does not like to have akusala, and one likes to have kusala, but can kusala arise often? If there is right understanding, it is a condition to have gradually less akusala, because one can be aware of akusala as akusala. But there is no self who wants to have kusala and to eradicate akusala. Kusala and akusala are anattå. We can verify to ourselves whether we can have kusala to the degree we wish or not.² If there are no conditions for kusala, we cannot force its arising. There are many degrees of kusala that can eliminate akusala. It depends on the individual to which kind of kusala he is mostly inclined, to dåna, síla, samatha or to the development of right understanding. We read in the ³Dhammmapada² (Khuddaka Nikåya), vs. 183: Not to do any evil, to cultivate wholesomeness, to purify one¹s mind,- this is the teaching of the Buddhas. This is a short text but deep in meaning. When we develop right understanding of all realities appearing through the six doors we ³purify the mind². Then we can see akusala and kusala as dhammas that arise because of the appropriate conditions and that are non-self. This understanding is the condition to refrain from akusala and to cultivate kusala. ******* Footnotes. 1. In the second Book of the Abhidhamma, the ³Book of Analysis² Ch 17, ³Analysis of Small Items² different ways of craving have been explained in connection with oneself. One thinks of oneself with craving, with wrong view and with conceit. Craving, tanhå, wrong view, ditthi and conceit, måna, are three factors that slow down the development of insight. They are also called papañca, diffuseness or aberrations. See my ³In Asoka¹s Footsteps², Ch 4. 2. Årammana means object and adhipati means predominance. 3. Upanissaya means support or dependence. Årammanúpanissaya-paccaya is also translated as decisive support-condition of object. 4. Anantara means without any interval. 5. This is also translated as decisive support of proximity-condition. 6. Pakati means natural. The natural strong dependence-condition is very wide, it also includes, for example, kusala that can condition the arising of akusala later on, or akusala that can condition the arising of kusala later on . ***** 11735 From: Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/8/02 1:06:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > I really do not know how to say why I say it is the same but I try to > explain it. As I say, without the pillar of mindfulness there is no > concentration and when when we practise concentration, we are practising > being in the present moment. Mindful of the present moment. Sucessive > awares of such moment is to me the same definition of right concentration. > All the four jhanas need sati to be objective, without being sati, there > is no way we could even breach from one level of jhana to another bc there > are still delusion between each concentration levels. If we are not aware > of such successive moments, there is a danger of falling into such > delusion that we are liberated hence hampering the progress of the next > level. > > > To me, jhana is just successive moment of being sati. > > > > > Kind regards > Ken O > > =============================== It seems to me that, in part, you are saying that there is no mindfulness without a degree of concentration, and there is no concentration without a degree of mindfulness, and, so, while they are not the same or equivalent, they *are* mutually dependent. If this is what you are saying in part, then to that extent I do agree. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11736 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 1:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Larry (and Kom), I agree with Kom that it may be a good choice to start with the writings of Nina and K. Sujin first as a way to ease into the Abhidhamma. Still being fairly new to Abhidhamma studies, I remember the difficulties I had, and still have, with the new terms...just remembering the spelling and the Pali, let alone the meanings, groups, lists and alternative groups and lists.... I think you may find the following sites of interest. Ninas' and K. Sujins' writings are there and can be read on screen or downloaded. http://www.abhidhamma.org/contents.htm http://www.dhammastudy.com/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ (click on e-books) Zolag also have a "beginners" link, which gives sample chapters from The Buddhas' Path, Buddhism in Daily Life, Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Introduction to Buddhist Scriptures. Personally, I found Buddhism in Daily Life necessary to start with. It can be read just like a novel, whereas I found Abhidhamma in Daily Life is better to be read and thought about chapter by chapter (or paragraph by paragraph in my case). metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Larry, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > > > Also, I wonder if you have any guidelines on how > > to study abhidhamma. > > Should I just buy the 7 books and jump in or is > > there a preferred plan > > of attack? > > I think whatever you decide to do, it's important to have > somebody to correspond with and ask questions on the points > that you don't understand or would prefer to have > clarifications. People reacts to the abhidhamma tipitakas > differently. Num loves it and seems to be able to read > through it, but he also has his aunt helping him understand > the knotty passages. I can only read a short passage from > the Abhidhamma tipitakas at any point of time, although my > attention span lasts a little longer when I read from > derived works (such as Nina's or K. Sujin's or others') that > I have fewer problems with the language. > > I personally would recommend that people read K. Sujin and > Nina's works (Survey of Paramatha Dhamma, Abhiddhamma in > Daily Life, Cetasikas) to get the basic ideas of > Namas/Rupas, Realities/Concepts, Kusala/Akusala, etc. first. > I would have been even more discouranged had I started on > the Abhidhamma tipitakas first (especially if without the > commentaries) because on first glance, it may feel like a > list of stuffs. Nina gave many wonderful examples in her > books for the different topics under the study, which makes > it easier to contemplate what the topics is all about. > > Besides, most of Nina's work is free. But eventually, you > will have to read the tipitakas for yourself... Just an > opinion. > > kom 11737 From: Victor Yu Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta Hi Nina, Thanks for replying. Regards, Victor Hello Victor, There are many texts explaining the different ways ariyans are liberated, and this shows that people¹s accumulations are diverse. We have to look into the context in order to understand what is meant by liberated by wisdom, liberated in both ways. I find that it is not easy at all to understand such texts. Ven. Henepola, see below, carefully describes all the different groups of people and their attainments, mentioning the sources. We read in the Wheel 351-353, The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation, by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, p. 70: end quote. If we go back to the Sutta, we see that the Buddha taught Susima the three characteristics of realities, beginning with, , and after that the Dependent Origination. In the Commentary it was said that the monks were nijjhaanakaa sukkhavipassakaa: here we see the meaning of contemplation in the sense of contemplation of the three characteristics in vipassana, as was previously brought forward by Robert and also by me: two meanings of nijjhaana (also the term upanijjhaana is used in other texts) or jhaana. We read in the Commentary, that the Buddha said to Susima that the Path, magga and the Fruition, phala, are not the result of concentration, samadhi, but that they are the result of vipassana. After the Buddha¹s teaching Susima became an arahat. The Buddha did not teach him to attain jhana first. It is also said, in the beginning of the Sutta that there were many monks with the Buddha. Thus, many monks were sukkhavipassaka. I do not deny that in many Suttas the Buddha praised jhana, but to whom did he speak? To people who had accumulations for it. I quoted the Susima Sutta to show that it is not absolutely necessary for everybody to first develop a high degree of concentration and then vipassana. The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. Incidentally, according to Ven. Hennepola, there are five groups of pa~n~naavimutta, and one of these is dry insight, four have attained rupajhana. Best wishes from Nina. Victor wrote: I find Bhikkhu Thanissaro's note on Susima Sutta might be of some interest. Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening. 11738 From: Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Sarah, This is great, ideal, perfect!!! Very clear; I like it. My only quibble is I would say there is both a real hand and a concept of a hand. The proof that we don't conventionally experience wholeness is that if we did there wouldn't be any curiosity. thanks a lot, Larry ------------- >Sarah wrote: Larry, Here goes with the 'short succinct' reply;-) 1. Only ultimate realities are real, i.e. namas and rupas 2. Concepts are not ultimate realities 3. rupa, citta and cetasikas (i.e. namas and rupas) are conditioned or compounded 4. Nibbana is the one ultimate reality which is not conditioned 5. Only ultimate realities actually exist at this moment, but because of ignorance we take concepts --including self-- to actually exist. In fact they are a figment of the imagination only. 6. You say we don't 'conventionally experience wholeness', but what about everytime we think there' s a hand, a finger, a keyboard, a screen, some writing and so on? 7. You ask 'what do we have to talk about?' We could talk about ultimate realties in more detail for a start.... Hope this passes your email system;-) Thanks for mentioning your request. Sarah 11739 From: Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket Dear Kom and Christine, Thanks for your good advice on how to study. Much appreciated. Larry 11740 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 10:42pm Subject: Paticasamuppada VII Dear Group, In this post I briefly speak about the relationship of the 24 paccaya of the Patthana with Paticcasamuppada. The Dhamma can be summed up as "this being that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises. This not being that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases". Assaji said to sariputta "Of things that arise from a cause, their cause the tathagatha has told and also their cessation, thus teaches the great monk" Ye dhamma hetuppabhava tesm hetum tathagato aha tesanca yo nirodho evamvadi mahasamano For Sariputta upon hearing this short verse he became a sotapanna. For us more aspects need to be investigated so that we start to see conditionality everywhere and in all things. The 24 modes of conditions: 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root condition 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object condition 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance condition 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority condition 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity condition 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence condition 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance All these Paccaya can be understood when we really understand Paramatha Dhamma :- the 5 khandhas, the ayatanas , the elements. Some people don't want to learn about these conditions because they find it complex. But if we see that the Abhidhamma is happening now we can learn to 'study' directly and then it becomes very relevant. Take object-condition (arammana -paccaya), each moment has an object. What is the object now? Some objects are pleasant, others are unpleasant, but either way it is only an object conditioning the citta to experience it, it is a condition by being its object. That is all, and then gone immediately. It may seem that it lasts along time but really it has fallen away , even before we think about it and a new one - perhaps similar to the earlier one - has arisen. There is so quickly reaction to the object with kusala citta(wholesome mindstate) or akusala citta (unwholesome): these are sankhara link(formations) of the Paticcasamuppada and this 'reaction' is conditioned by root-condition, hetu-paccaya, and by other conditions. We may find it important what types of hetus(roots) arise in a day, and try to have more 'good' roots but it is all conditioned and conditioning. It is through seeing into conditions that the wrong view of self is being erased. In the beginning we may be confused about conditions and anatta and kamma and Paticcasamuppada. Some wonder how there can be the result of kamma if there is no self. Mahapunnama Sutta (majjhima Nikaya 109): "It is possible, bhikkhus, that some misguided man here, obtuse and ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think that he can outstrip the Teacher’s Dispensation thus: ‘So, it seems, material form is not self, feeling is not self, perception is not self, formations are not self consciousness is not self. What self, then, will actions done by the not-self affect?" The Buddha knew the mind of a monk who had been listening to a profound discourse about anatta and who had had this thought. The Buddha then said: "Now, bhikkhus, you have been trained by me in dependent (conditionality) in various instances." And the sutta continues to reinforce that all the khandhas are anatta. "seeing thus, a well taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with material form..feeling..perception..formations..consciousness... ..now while this discourse was being spoken ..the minds of sixty bhikkhus were liberated from the taints" Here are some more details about the second condition, arammana paccaya, object condition. Some objects are very desirable and then one gives preponderance to them; they condition the citta by way of object predominance-condition, arammanadhipati-paccaya. Only desirable objects can condition the citta by way of object predominance-condition, not unpleasant objects, such as painful feeling. Good deeds such as samatha or giving or the development of right understanding can be object predominance-condition for the kusala citta that esteems it and gives preponderance to it. This type of condition (arammanaadhipati - paccaya) can be either kusala or akusala. For instance, one may develop some moments of true calm and this is taken as object predominance condition for citta rooted (hetu-paccaya) in attachment. The feelings for both moments of true calm (kusala) and attachment (akusala) can be either neutral or pleasant and so one might not see the difference. However, if one learns to see conditionality in all things these matters become clearer and clearer. Here is another example: I went to a office party yesterday. The food was spread out on tables and it all looked delicious. Yet everyone had preferences and this because of many conditions. I had tasted the raw horsemeat (basashi) at an earlier party and found it not to my taste (one of the 6 ayatana of the Paticcasamuppada). It was not object predominance condition. Other friends relished it and discussed how fresh and delicious it was. When we like an object we accumulate clinging (upadana link of the paticcasamuppada)and this can become stronger and stronger, the more it is enjoyed or even the more it is thought about. Then it conditions clinging by way of arammanaupanissaya -paccaya (strong dependence condition) and becomes a strong condition for clinging to arise. It will condition more moments of clinging also in the future. If we learn to study these conditions directly such events as attending parties become -as much as any other aspect of life- more ways to investigate and detach from the idea of self. For instance, perhaps we wonder why we are glance several times at the chocate fudge cake and only once at the strawberry pavlova. This may be because of strong dependence condition. Or do we keep thinking of how we shouldn't eat too much? This might be because one knows that excess food brings torpor OR it might be because of strong attachment to being slim..in one case it is kusala in the other akusala. If we have the idea that it is 'my' thinking or 'my' desire then there is no understandning but we may learn to see into conditions that there is no one controlling them, that they are void of self. Question: If they are uncontrollable, then what is the point of being aware of them. I think we should try to control our thoughts and mind. _____ Robert K.:There is no one who is aware of them, nor can awareness be controlled. If there is awareness (which is conditioned by various factors) what it sees is this very fact - and that eliminates, at deeper and deeper levels, the idea of self and control. It eliminates the type of upadana (link of grasping in Patic.) that is wrong view. It gradually reduces ignorance(avijja link). Thus vipassana is different from samatha. Samatha supresses, correctly, clinging; but vipassana wears away ignorance. The surge (nidanasamyutta 69(9) bodhi p611 "surging ignorance makes formations surge, surging consciousness makes consciousness surge...surging birth causes ageing and death to surge " even so monks receding ignorance makes formaqtions recede, receding formations make consciousness recede......receding birth makes ageing and death recede." There are differences between kilesa(defilements) at the level of mild sadness or doubt or wanting and kilesa at the level that it shows itself by bad behaviour. When we feel a little out of sorts it is called pariyutthana (rising up) and when it becomes stronger and goes beyond the stage of pariyutthana it is called vitikkama and then unwholesome deeds are performed (classified as ten types). But whether at the level of pariyutthana or vitikkama - or for that matter anusaya(still latent) - all these are dhammas, not self and uncontrollable in the deepest sense. It is very helpful to know more about these details so that they can be noticed - to whatever degree is appropriate for our level of understanding- in life. Then they help to deepen insight into anattaness. When we do something bad, such as I speak with a harsh voice because my chidren are fighting, we can see how conditions work at these times. Every citta, every different moment has an object arammana paccaya (object condition). In the case of my children the object is the concept of them fighting. Because of attachment (lobha hetu paccya) the citta takes this object again and again. If it were someone else's children, and happened say in a shopping center, the citta would take the object only for a few moments and then take a new object because there is not the same degree of accumulated clinging to this object(as there is to 'my' children) . Or if it happened only once and there was no memory (composed of sanna and thinking about concept)then the supporting conditions (such as upanissaya paccaya) would not be strong. But when it happens many times, and it is taken as arammana repeatedly, if there isn't awareness or other kusala, it may very quickly conditions aversion (pariyutthana) that can break out to the degree of vitikkama (harsh speech in this case). If there is reflection and some insight into this though, the aversion so quickly drops away - sometimes before it reaches the stage of vitikkama , sometimes it won't arise at all. robert 11741 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Lucy (and Larry) --- Lucy wrote: > Dear Jon and Larry > > (beginner's corner questions) > > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > > > I'm not sure if this is similar to what you are saying, but some > people > > consider that rupas are 'more real' than namas. > > > > OK, what then do you have to say to some people who consider that namas > are > the only 'real' thing (meaning : perceived rupa is citta) ? Not meaning > that there is no rupa, but meaning that what I see etc. as rupa is not > rupa. Whether or not namas are the only real’ thing can I think be tested against the experience of the present moment. According to the teachings, the present moment comprises different realities (dhammas) which are either namas or rupas, where namas are realities that experience an object and rupas are realities that are not capable of experiencing an object. These realities are called 'ultimate' realities ('paramattha' dhammas) because they are irreducible i.e., incapable of being broken down into any further component part. I think that by studying more and reflecting on the matter we can confirm whether, for example, the sound now being experienced through the ears or the hardness now being experienced through the body-sense is a reality and furthermore whether it is capable of experiencing an object. Lucy, when you say 'what I see etc. as rupa is not rupa', I wonder if you are referring also to the fact that although we can understand about namas and rupas in theory, in practice we continue to see the world in terms of objects (people and things) rather than as different rupas. As I think you would agree, we see the world in terms of people and things because of conceptualising about the underlying rupas concerned. Now while it’s true that at the moment of conceptualising, the rupas are not being experienced as they are, this doesn’t mean we have to stop the conceptualising before there can be the beginning of awareness of realities as they are. Conceptualising about realities will always be a part of our lives (even the arahant continues to do this – without it he/she would be unable to relate to the world at large) but with the development of understanding there can gradually be some realisation of the difference between the concepts and the realities, so that the one is not taken for the other. The function of insight/understanding is to see dhammas as they really are, and this can be happening even in the midst of seeing the world in terms of objects such as people and things. > > > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, > because > > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. > > This is a good point Jon. I wonder about superimposing concepts on > experience "because it is something described in the texts" - wouldn't > the > product be self-suggestion rather than realization? Absolutely, at least that's the way I see it. No possibility of direct knowledge of realities. Actually, I'm sure most people would agree with your proposition, but there would be disagreement as to what in practice amounts to 'superimposing concepts on experience' as you so aptly put it. Personally, I find it helpful to assume that all my ideas about reality and the practice are likely to be flawed. It's amazing how much superimposing of concepts can be noticed at some level or another if we are not trying to convince ourselves how little we are prone to this particular tendency. Jon 11742 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > In fact, it is my understanding that when a backgound > layer of calm and nonreactiveness is in place as the result of an > ongoing > concentration practice, directed attention/observation can be relatively > free > of a sense of self and almost completely free of craving. In fact, this is, > as I see it, the purpose of Right Concentration, which is defined again > and > again in the suttas as the attaining of the first four jhanas. In my answer to the first part of this passage, I didn’t get around to discussing your reference to Right Concentration. As you know, Howard, I regard the Noble Eightfold Path, of which Right Concentration is a factor, as descriptive of the moment of enlightenment, and similarly I see the mundane 5-fold path as descriptive of a moment of insight/vipassana. I do not see the Path as descriptive of factors to be developed individually and separately or of some form of 'practice'. Thus to my understanding Right Concentration is present with every moment of insight and of course at the moments of enlightenment too, when it performs its function with an intensity equivalent to a moment of mundane jhana. (That function, by the way, being to bring all the associated mental states to bear on the same object with the necessary intensity; it is not the function of concentration to focus successive cittas on the same object, as the conventional understanding of concentration might suggest.) > In any case, Jon, the Buddha never taught anyone to just wait > until > *somehow* conditions arose for wisdom to appear. The Buddha taught the > conscious, deliberate, and determined practice of right behavior, right > meditation (including both the cultivation of calm and insight), and > wisdom > (at the intellectual level, by study of the dhamma, and at the ultimate > level > as a consequence of all the rest). You seem to be suggesting here that the choice is one between 'conscious, deliberate and determined practice of wisdom' and 'just waiting until somehow conditions arise for wisdom to appear'. To my understanding of the texts, neither of these correctly represents the teaching. The Buddha exhorted us to strive, but not by 'practising wisdom' (nor of course by 'just waiting'). True, all forms of kusala, including mindfulness and insight, require effort, but it is the effort *of the moment of kusala* rather than the effort *to have/to do kusala* (or to not have or not do akusala) that is the supporting factor. The moments of kusala themselves do the striving, because they are accompanied by the mental factor that is right effort (which is being marshalled by right concentration). Howard, I'd like to suggest that the idea that awareness or understanding must be or is normally preceded by some form of volitional practice does not give due account to the conditioned nature of realities that is so central to the Buddha’s teaching. I will try to explain what I mean (without being confident that I will succeed). According to the abhidhamma and commentaries, all our tendencies both wholesome and unwholesome are passed from one moment of consciousness to the next and are latent in each moment of consciousness if not actually manifesting. At any given moment, only the kusala or the akusala accumulations/mental factors (i.e., not both) can manifest, and then only certain of those kusala or akusala factors. But whether kusala or akusala, their manifestation requires the right conditions. Obviously, the stronger the particular trait, the more likely to occur, but this is only one of a multitude of factors at play. Now it is implicit in the conditioned nature of things that if the necessary conditions for accumulated qualities wholesome or unwholesome to manifest are in place then they will do so at an appropriate time. As our general experience in life shows, tendencies have a way of choosing their own time and occasion (think of the unwholesome tendencies that pop up at the most unexpected and unwelcome of times). Precisely *when* or *what object* is not something that is within our power to determine, so there is no point in trying to make anything happen to our own timetable and/or selected object. In the case of our all too meagre accumulated store of awareness and understanding, the underlying and most important of the necessary conditions is I should think to have heard the teachings in this lifetime and as a result having some sort of 'sense of urgency' (seeing the danger in the round of existence). I suppose most of us having these discussions have at least a budding notion of this sense of urgency (otherwise we wouldn't spend our time having these discussions), so next come conditions such as having a proper grasp of the teachings at a theoretical/intellectual level as appropriate to our present level of actual understanding. What I am trying to show is that, if the right kind of nurturing is given, our accumulated awareness and understanding can and must arise, and will do so notwithstanding our accumulated kilesa. Even the akusala that is manifesting at one moment need not be an obstacle for the arising of awareness in a subsequent moment, and could indeed be the object taken by that moment of awareness. If that were not so then there would be no prospect of a way out. And we see that in the Satipatthana Sutta even the hindrances are among the mental objects to be known 'as they really are'. One thing is for sure. If we have the idea that awareness can *only* arise when preceded by 'conscious, deliberate or determined practice', and not at other times, this would be an almost insurmountable obstacle to the arising of awareness at moments when no such practice was being undertaken. It is likewise, but perhaps less obviously so, an obstacle to have the idea that awareness is *much more likely* to arise when the circumstance are those we perceive as being more conducive (e.g., our 'practice' time), and not at other ‘ordinary’ times. It is a sobering thought (to me, anyway) that it is not the defilements that are so easily noticeable to us (and which we would very much like to be rid of) that are the real obstacles to the development of insight. It is our wrong view and ignorance -- aspects of our kilesa about which we have relatively very little idea -- that are the major hindrances. The development of the path might be a lot easier if it was a matter of somehow dealing with more obvious kilesa. This has turned into a very lengthy reply. For obvious reasons, I'll skip the rest of your post, if you don't mind! Jon > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as they > really > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The sense of self disappears only with the attainment of complete > > enlightenment. But dhammas can come to be known as they are, that is by > wisdom, as a consequence of a combination of right behavior, > meditation, and > right understanding, and mindfulness can be developed while one is still > a > worldling. If that were not so, there would be no escape from samsara, > and > the Buddha's teaching would be a fraud. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the object > of > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My *experience* is that this is just not so. When concentration, > calm, > and mindfulness are made very strong by extended practice, one *can* see > > dhammas directly, and not through the mediation of concept, and their > impermanence and insubstantiality become clear. In fact, it is amazing > at > times that things in reality are not at all what they seem to be through > the > mediation of concepts. It is definitely possible to see that "our world" > is > one big conceptual magic show. It *is* possible to see through the > trickery! > (But not by just waiting for conditions to "somehow" arise, and not by > just > *reading* about the way things really are.) > -------------------------------------------------------------- > And if the> > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the object > would > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > *conceptualising > > about dhammas*. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And you know this pessimistic "fact" how? > ------------------------------------------------------------- > All the time with akusala cittas (albeit subtle akusala> > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying motivation is > bound > > up with akusala. > > > > I think it goes without saying that a 'practice' that is in effect > moments > > of akusala could never lead to (be a condition for) the arising of > kusala, > > particularly kusala of the kind that is awareness or insight. > > > > I would be interested to hear your take on this, Howard. > > > > Jon > > > =============================== > With metta, > Howard 11743 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 0:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Rob K "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > > Dear Jon, > I thought about it some more. I think it depends on what we mean by > experienced. All day there is the experience of paramattha dhammas in > the sense that for example seeing is happening now. But the mental > processes after the seeing are almost always concept. When it comes > to things like sensations in the body such as hot or cold it can seem > like there is direct understanding, without any concept, but as you > have been saying it is not as easy as it appears. In fact one > definition of avijja notes that it runs among concepts but doesn't > run among paramattha dhammas - which certainly supports what you said. > best wishes > robert Thanks for these further observations. I am not sure what the text-book answer should be, but my general sense is as you say above -- lots of moments of conceptualisation. Jon > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, at such moments there cannot be the *knowing dhammas as > they > > > really > > > > are* (dhammas can only appear as they are to sati/panna). > > > > > > > > My analysis of such moments of 'directed attention' is that the > > > object of > > > > the attention or observation would be a concept of some kind. > And > > > if the > > > > person mistakenly thought they were experiencing dhammas, the > > > object would > > > > in fact be concepts about dhammas, the person would be > > > *conceptualising > > > > about dhammas*. All the time with akusala cittas (albeit > subtle > > > akusala > > > > not recognisable to us as such), since the underlying > motivation is > > > bound > > > > up with akusala. > > > > > ____________ > > > > > > Dear Jon, > > > I think the object of attention could be a paramattha dhamma. For > > > example , painful feeling, or heat. But they would be experienced > not > > > as they truly are, but in a distorted way (vipallasa). > > > best wishes > > > robert > > > > > > Thanks for these comments, Rob. You may well be right, but I cant > think > > of any way of checking this point in the texts (can you?). > > > > Fortunately (for me, I mean), I don't think this affects the point > I was > > trying to make to Howard, namely that moments of directed attention > to > > dhammas or what we take for dhammas are likely not to be moments of > > directly knowing dhammas as they really are. > > > > Thanks anyway. I will avoid being categorical on this point until > I have > > confirmed one way or the other. > > > > Jon 11744 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Victor --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > Yes. Nama is impermanent. Is what is impermanent easeful or > stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha? According to the texts, Victor, the answer is 'yes'. Jon > Regards, > Victor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 8:24 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities > > > > Victor > > > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > > > > > Is nama permanent or impermanent? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Victor > > > > Hmm. You've got me worried here, Victor. I know you're not asking me > > because you don't know the answer... It must be something to do with > my > > post, but I really can't see the connection. > > > > Anyway, since I have a 50% chance of getting this right, let me say > > 'impermanent' ;-)). > > > > Jon > > > > > > Yes. Those who try to 'see' either rupas or namas as suffering, > > > because > > > > it is something described in the texts, are jumping the gun. Only > the > > > > mental factor of insight (panna) can see by direct knowledge this > > > > characteristic, and even then it is only highly developed insight > that > > > > sees this. The beginning stage of insight is to see realities as > > > either > > > > nama or rupa, and even this cannot begin without a firm > intellectual > > > grasp > > > > of what the teachings have to say on this. > > > > > > > > The world as we experience it is, in terms of rupas, merely 7 in > > > number. > > > > > > > > Jon 11745 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 0:54am Subject: Re: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Frank --- frank kuan wrote: > Both meditation and proper understanding of dhamma are > important, but consider this. Every retreat I've ever > done, 3 day, 10 day, formal or alone, the impact it > has on the radical reduction of dukkha in my moment to > moment experience upon leaving the meditation retreat > is far more noticable than months of dhamma study. > Every time without fail. I'd be interested to know what you mean here by reduction of dukkha in moment to moment experience, Frank. Would you mind sharing some examples with us? Thanks. Jon > Dhamma study can not be neglected, but to me it seems > like we have to honestly assess what the proper ratio > between right concentration and right understanding to > develop/work on in our daily routine. > > -fk 11746 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] subconscious influence or just lack of mindfulness? Frank I'm not aware of any similar classification in the Abhidhamma. It's difficult to comment since as I understand it there is no fixed definition of subconscious in modern psychology. We could perhaps discuss some specific instances if you have any in mind. Jon --- frank kuan wrote: > In a discussion group the other day, the topic of > subconscious thoughts came up. > > What is subconscious as understood in modern > psychology and how does it relate to buddhism? > > My understanding is that subconscious thought is > thought related to really long term memory > unexpectedly rising into immediate awareness. > > However, it seems that people use the concept of > "subconscious" more broadly than it means, or very > likely I don't have a complete definition of what it > means (in modern psychology). What many people refer > to as subconscious motivation to me seems like a > simple case of lack of mindfulness. > > I don't believe consciousness and unconscious activity > occur simultaneously. How do you abidhamma people > understand this? > > > -fk 11747 From: manji Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 3:26am Subject: question on pleasant feeling... If at any time there is searching for pleasant feeling, is there dosa? By this I mean always. This is different than vipaka. This is more "actively" seeking, applied thought etc. -manji- 11748 From: manji Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 4:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) I'd like to share some experience from martial arts, When doing iron shirt training there is pain (body unpleasant) and there is unpleasant feeling. However the body pain is a different "world" compared to the body pain that "you" think "you" experience. It doesn't feel painful in the conventional sense. Sticking the hands in boiling water, the hotness is different than "hot". Once this hotness is truly felt, it ceases to cause mental pain. Then there is no pain, of course... no suggesting running around putting hands in molten lead, boiling water or getting struck. :) This started when stepping out of the shower into the cold freezing air in the dojo. There is a tensing up and an unpleasant feeling. However, the "coldness" is different than "cold". Again, once this coldness is truly felt, there is no mental anguish. The coldness as an object (which is however brief) is different than "cold". There is an underlying tendency to interpret this "coldness" as "cold" and then "I am this" then "get away" then maybe "get warm". After thinking a bit, perhaps we associate a mentally unpleasant feeling with bodily unpleasant feeling. The bodily unpleasant feeling is not "mentally unpleasant", yet there certainly is a feeling that can give "immediate rise" to "mentally unpleasant feeling". How it gets conditioned that way is a good question. :) Anyways, thanks for bringing this up. -manji- -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:35 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) Rob K "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > > Dear Jon, > I thought about it some more. I think it depends on what we mean by > experienced. All day there is the experience of paramattha dhammas in > the sense that for example seeing is happening now. But the mental > processes after the seeing are almost always concept. When it comes > to things like sensations in the body such as hot or cold it can seem > like there is direct understanding, without any concept, but as you > have been saying it is not as easy as it appears. In fact one > definition of avijja notes that it runs among concepts but doesn't > run among paramattha dhammas - which certainly supports what you said. > best wishes > robert Thanks for these further observations. I am not sure what the text-book answer should be, but my general sense is as you say above -- lots of moments of conceptualisation. Jon > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Rob > > > > --- "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > --- > > In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > 11749 From: Victor Yu Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Jon, Texts asides, do you see what is impermanent stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha? Regards, Victor > Victor > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > > > Yes. Nama is impermanent. Is what is impermanent easeful or > > stressful/unsatisfactory/dukkha? > > According to the texts, Victor, the answer is 'yes'. > > Jon > > > Regards, > > Victor > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jonothan Abbott" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 8:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities > > > > > > > Victor > > > > > > --- Victor Yu wrote: > Jon, > > > > > > > > Is nama permanent or impermanent? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Victor 11750 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Hi Jon (from a weekend poster to another) > > (beginner's corner question) > > > > OK, what then do you have to say to some people who consider that namas > > are > > the only 'real' thing (meaning : perceived rupa is citta) ? Not meaning > > that there is no rupa, but meaning that what I see etc. as rupa is not > > rupa. ------------------------------- From: "Jonothan Abbott" > > These realities are called 'ultimate' realities ('paramattha' dhammas) > because they are irreducible i.e., incapable of being broken down into any > further component part. > > I think that by studying more and reflecting on the matter we can confirm > whether, for example, the sound now being experienced through the ears or > the hardness now being experienced through the body-sense is a reality and > furthermore whether it is capable of experiencing an object. -------------------------------- It'll take me a lot more observation !!! - it isn't clear yet because I haven't got the skill to distinguish between the object, the perception and the concept. They are glued to each other in one solid mass of "experience". Reflection continues .... and continues ... and .... -------------------------------- > Lucy, when you say 'what I see etc. as rupa is not rupa', I wonder if you > are referring also to the fact that although we can understand about namas > and rupas in theory, in practice we continue to see the world in terms of > objects (people and things) rather than as different rupas. > --------------------------------- That's one aspect of the tangle. But on a deeper level, there's also the fact that all perceptions are processed by consciousness (vinnana) - as such, every perception is conditioned --- Sankara paccaya vinnanam / Vinnana paccaya namarupam--- and if it's conditioned, it's not pure perception of an object but a construct of citta --- don't know whether this is coming out clear at all... will try again if not.... --------------------------- > Conceptualising about realities will always be a > part of our lives (even the arahant continues to do this - without it > he/she would be unable to relate to the world at large) but with the > development of understanding there can gradually be some realisation of > the difference between the concepts and the realities, so that the one is > not taken for the other. > ---------------------------- That's clear, thanks. ---------------------------- > > > Personally, I find it helpful to assume that all my ideas about reality > and the practice are likely to be flawed. It's amazing how much > superimposing of concepts can be noticed at some level or another if we > are not trying to convince ourselves how little we are prone to this > particular tendency. > ------------------------- he-he-he Lucy 11751 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Hi Larry, Kom and Christine From: "christine_forsyth" > > I agree with Kom that it may be a good choice to start with the > writings of Nina and K. Sujin first as a way to ease into the > Abhidhamma. My vote added. I find K.Sujin's texts a little difficult to follow because of all the pali (have to keep going back to the glossary or searching for a previous page where the word meaning is explained) --- in fairness, though, I tend to read in bed and shouldn't really read these texts in bed! --- OTH, checking if I can still remember in the morning is a good test , if I fail, have to read the same again the following night. Bhikkhu Bodhi's edition of the Abhidhammattha sangaha ("A Comprehensive Manual f Abhidhamma", BPS) is also a very helpful introduction. Maybe we (newcomers) should try a "synchronised reading" and help each other as we go along? Best wishes Lucy 11752 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths (for Howard) (II)) -- Dear Manji, Interesting about the Martial arts training. Sarah is our resident yoga expert (unless there are others). It shows how we can apply Dhamma to anything we do in life. bes wishes robert - In dhammastudygroup@y..., "manji" wrote: > I'd like to share some experience from martial arts, > > When doing iron shirt training there is pain (body unpleasant) and there > is unpleasant feeling. However the body pain is a different "world" > compared to the body pain that "you" think "you" experience. It doesn't > feel painful in the conventional sense. > > Sticking the hands in boiling water, the hotness is different than > "hot". Once this hotness is truly felt, it ceases to cause mental pain. > Then there is no pain, of course... no suggesting running around putting > hands in molten lead, boiling water or getting struck. :) > > This started when stepping out of the shower into the cold freezing air > in the dojo. There is a tensing up and an unpleasant feeling. However, > the "coldness" is different than "cold". Again, once this coldness is > truly felt, there is no mental anguish. The coldness as an object (which > is however brief) is different than "cold". > > There is an underlying tendency to interpret this "coldness" as "cold" > and then "I am this" then "get away" then maybe "get warm". > > After thinking a bit, perhaps we associate a mentally unpleasant feeling > with bodily unpleasant feeling. The bodily unpleasant feeling is not > "mentally unpleasant", yet there certainly is a feeling that can give > "immediate rise" to "mentally unpleasant feeling". How it gets > conditioned that way is a good question. > > :) > > Anyways, thanks for bringing this up. > > -manji- > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:35 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@y... > Subject: Re: [dsg] Directed attention to dhammas (was: The Two Truths > (for Howard) (II)) > > Rob K > > "robertkirkpatrick.rm" wrote: > -- > > > > Dear Jon, > > I thought about it some more. I think it depends on what we mean by > > experienced. All day there is the experience of paramattha dhammas in > > the sense that for example seeing is happening now. But the mental > > processes after the seeing are almost always concept. When it comes > > to things like sensations in the body such as hot or cold it can seem > > like there is direct understanding, without any concept, but as you > > have been saying it is not as easy as it appears. In fact one > > definition of avijja notes that it runs among concepts but doesn't > > run among paramattha dhammas - which certainly supports what you said. > > best wishes > > robert > > Thanks for these further observations. I am not sure what the text- book > answer should be, but my general sense is as you say above -- lots of > moments of conceptualisation. > > Jon > > > - In dhammastudygroup@y..., Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Rob > 11753 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 7:22am Subject: Re: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I'd be interested to know what you mean here by > reduction of dukkha in > moment to moment experience, Frank. Would you mind > sharing some examples > with us? Thanks. After intensive meditation, my perception of impermanence and dukkha is much more keen. As my present experience unfolds moment to moment, that awareness has a profound impact on how I see things. Seeing dukkha becomes instinct, and I can avoid behavior that leads to suffering without having to think about it. The results are also noticable in my idle state - both body and mind are much more relaxed, more open. With only intellectual study of dhamma devoid of meditation, when confronted with the same potential dukkha situations, my alleviation of dukkha is much more strained. That is, my impermanence awareness is more conscious repetitive thinking than instinct, and there is much more clinging and obsessiveness with the situation. I have to keep reminding myself (intellectually), that is dukkha, not worth clinging to, impermanent, etc. Huge difference. With meditation, the intellectual knowledge of the 3 marks solidifies and becomes more instinctive, and much less obsessive reflection of pain-inducing situation after the event. Naturally I let events go and don't obsess afterwards if I did the right thing, etc. With meditation, witnessing the 3 marks seems to happen without thought and concepts. Without meditation and only intellectual dhammic understanding, it's like I'm a third party observer reviewing things in tape delay, and trying to understand the mind of another person. With meditation, I'm in first person, directly experiencing the moment. -fk 11754 From: frank kuan Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] subconscious influence or just lack of mindfulness? --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > I'm not aware of any similar classification in the > Abhidhamma. It's > difficult to comment since as I understand it there > is no fixed definition > of subconscious in modern psychology. We could > perhaps discuss some > specific instances if you have any in mind. > Um, I had some examples a few days ago, but they went back into hiding in my subconscious :-) I'll let you know if they resurface. -fk 11755 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 8:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] the object of bhavanga-cittas ? ( more beginner's questions !!!) Dear all Can someone please explain something about the object of bhavanga citta? -------------------------- From Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" Chapter 15 " The cuti-citta has only the function of being the dying-moment of that life. The cuti-citta is vipakacitta produced by the kamma which produced the patisandhi-citta and the bhavanga-cittas of the life which is just ending; it is of the same type as these cittas and it experiences the same object. When the cuti-citta has fallen away the patisandhi-citta of the following life arises, which citta may be of a different type, depending on the kamma which produces it. This patisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The patisandhi-citta, all bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of the next life experience that object. ---------------------------- From Visuddhi Magga XIV : "As soon as rebirth-consciousness (in the embryo at the time of conception) has ceased, there arises a similar subconsciousness with exactly the same object, following immediately upon rebirth-consciousness and being the result of this or that karma (volitional action done in a former birth and remembered there at the moment before death). And again a further similar state of subconsciousness arises. Now, as long as no other consciousness arises to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream, so long the life-stream, like the flow of a river, rises in the same way again and again, even during dreamless sleep and at other times. In this way one has to understand the continuous arising of those states of consciousness in the life-stream." ----------------------------- My questions: I read these paragraphs as saying that the bhavanga cittas have one and a same object throughout life. Does this imply that the object remains *unchanged* through a life-span? How can this be? Or does it actually mean the "same kind / species of object"? Or am I mis-reading the whole thing??? Also wondering about this: ".... as long as no other consciousness arises to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream" (and similar descriptions of the succession of citta). As we understand "subconscious", it is something continuously running below the conscious. But the Abdhidhamma descriptions of the process seems to indicate that the "subconscious" (bhavanga citta) is interrupted every time another consciousness arises. When the interruption by other consciousness stops and bhavanga citta arises again, does it do so exactly as it was before being interrupted??? What are the cetasikas of the bhavanga citta? Thanks for any help Best wishes puzzled Lucy 11756 From: Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kkandhas and realities Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/9/02 3:15:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > According to the teachings, the present moment comprises different > realities (dhammas) which are either namas or rupas, where namas are > realities that experience an object and rupas are realities that are not > capable of experiencing an object. > > These realities are called 'ultimate' realities ('paramattha' dhammas) > because they are irreducible i.e., incapable of being broken down into any > further component part. > ============================ This is certainly correct. But because of frequent misunderstanding of the Theravadin position, I think that it is always useful to point out that while the paramattha dhammas are irreducible, they are not independent, depending as they do on each other, with a mutual dependence between vi~n~nana and namarupa, with various inredependencies among the cetasikas within a given mind-moment, and with dependencies holding between earlier and later mind-moments. Thus even the paramattha dhammas are not independent self-existent units, but are things-in relation, arisen dependently, and impermanent. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 11757 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 2:16pm Subject: Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Hi Lucy and All, I would be happy to join with any others in reading an agreed article, chapters of a book, or around a certain topic for later discussion. Of course, it would have to be something of digestible size, and readily available on the Net or something we all own. Maybe if some of us just start anyone else is very welcome to jump in at any time as well. How about a few suggestions on what you're interested in taking a look at ....... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > Hi Larry, Kom and Christine > > From: "christine_forsyth" > > > > > I agree with Kom that it may be a good choice to start with the > > writings of Nina and K. Sujin first as a way to ease into the > > Abhidhamma. > > My vote added. I find K.Sujin's texts a little difficult to follow because > of all the pali (have to keep going back to the glossary or searching for a > previous page where the word meaning is explained) --- in fairness, though, > I tend to read in bed and shouldn't really read these texts in bed! --- > OTH, checking if I can still remember in the morning is a good test , if I > fail, have to read the same again the following night. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's edition of the Abhidhammattha sangaha ("A Comprehensive > Manual f Abhidhamma", BPS) is also a very helpful introduction. > > Maybe we (newcomers) should try a "synchronised reading" and help each > other as we go > along? > > Best wishes > Lucy 11758 From: Lucy Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Hi Christine ! From: "christine_forsyth" > > I would be happy to join with any others in reading an agreed > article, chapters of a book, or around a certain topic for later > discussion. Of course, it would have to be something of digestible > size, and readily available on the Net or something we all own. Yes, the digestible size is especially welcome. I would like "slow" reading (like a chapter per week, at most) so I can munch it over several days... I quite like Abhidhamma in Daily Life as an all-round introduction, but am open to any suggestions. Perhaps some of the "pros" can give us a hint. > Maybe if some of us just start anyone else is very welcome to jump > in at any time as well. Yeah , sure - There must be quite a few people on the list who are quite daunted with the advanced talk. Perhaps this will encourage a few to join? (if the moderators don't mind making like a nursery corner somewhere on the list???) Best wishes Lucy 11759 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 11:19pm Subject: Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment Dear Group, Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a few questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly those whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder about the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg may be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal Sitting Meditation that I have questions. Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one hour sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as a secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the secondary object passes away or diminishes." If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they please give the scriptural quotes that support their answer? 1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably shown by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably mean 'formal sitting meditation.' 2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary for Enlightenment? Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting Meditation - or does it happen any other way? 3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*, *mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ? metta, Christine 11760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:45am Subject: India Ch 7, no. 1 Chapter 7 The Understanding of the four noble Truths Attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, frequently arise in our daily life. We know in theory that they are dhammas, non-self, but when they arise, do we realize them as only nåma elements? We notice it when we have dosa but we think about ³our dosa² or name it dosa, instead of realizing it as a nåma element. Lobha and dosa are cetasikas accompanying akusala citta. In theory we know that citta is different from cetasika. Citta experiences an object, it is the chief in knowing the object, and the accompanying cetasikas that share the same object have each their own characteristic and function. Lobha and dosa are different cetasikas. We can begin to be aware of them when they appear, but only when paññå has been developed to the stage of insight knowledge can it clearly see lobha and dosa as nåma elements devoid of self. At this moment we still confuse the characteristic of nåma such as seeing with rúpa such as visible object, and thus, we are bound to take them for self. It is necessary to listen to the Dhamma and consider it over and over again, otherwise there is no foundation for right awareness of nåma and rúpa. This should not discourage us, we can continue to study with awareness any kind of reality that appears. This kind of study is the beginning of understanding the characteristics of realities. Acharn Sujin said: ³Intellectual understanding is not enough, it is only thinking about realities. But knowing this is in itself a condition for right awareness. Awareness can arise very naturally. We touch many things in a day without awareness. When there is a moment of right understanding, there is sati, samådhi (concentration or one-pointedness) and effort, and there is no need to think, ³I should try more.² There is effort already. The understanding of non-self will grow. Nobody can condition anything, even a reality such as sound. Sound arises when there are conditions for it. Who can do anything? There are conditions for each reality.² Effort, viriya, is a cetasika arising with many cittas, it can accompany akusala citta and kusala citta. Thus, when there is mindfulness of a nåma or rúpa, effort, viriya, accompanies the kusala citta. With regard to concentration, samådhi, this is a cetasika that accompanies each citta, thus also the kusala citta with mindfulness. We should not try to focus on one particular dhamma, then there is a concept of self who selects an object of mindfulness and that is a hindrance to the development of paññå. The last day of a long and strenuous bus journey we traveled from Gaya to Nålandå and then on to Patna. The road from Gaya to Nålandå was full of deep holes, and while the bus was trying to avoid these holes it was rocking to and fro, from side to side, like a boat going on a rough sea. We had lunch in the Thai monastery of Nålandå where we offered dåna to the monks. After Nålandå the bus was frequently held up in the towns and villages where huge, sometimes frightenings crowds celebrated the last day of the Hindu festival of Durka Pujjå. We arrived in Patna around nine in the evening and this was the end of our two weeks journey. This extremely long day caused me to have severe stomach aches while sitting in the bus and during these moments I was considering painful feeling and pondering over it. Later on, in Patna, Acharn Sujin reminded me of the difference between awareness and thinking: ³There is still the idea of, Œit is my pain¹. Even though pain has a characteristic it is still me, me, me. There can be thinking, Œpain is not mine, it is just a reality¹, but pain arises and falls away while there is thinking about it. Do we really know nåma and rúpa? We should know that pain is a reality which is nåma, but is there development of understanding of any kind of dhamma so that insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna can arise? Everyone knows that there is pain, but it is Œmy pain¹ until it is understood as just a reality. The concept of me or mine is deeply rooted, until understanding is developed to the stage that nåma is realized as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. There can be awareness of a reality as nåma, as just the reality that experiences, even if it is not clear yet. It is developing, there can be some understanding of the characteristic of nåma. When paññå has been developed to the degree of vipassanå ñåna the understanding of nåma and rúpa will be clearer. How can that degree of understanding arise if there are no moments of developing understanding now? Paññå has to begin.² 11761 From: Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 4:17pm Subject: test 11762 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplating death Hi Christine and (Larry) Please don't stress yourself. Don't purposely be mindful, let it come into you naturally. It will come naturally and slowly. Take dhamma practise at your own leisure place as we are not those pple who practise dhamma two thousands years ago where a few sentences could make one to the path of enlightment. Relax and enjoy practising dhamma and don't be encumber by them (as it defeats the purpose of practising dhamma in the first place). Take your time and enjoy it :). Don't worry abt knowing of it before an automatic response. Kind rgds Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Ken O, > > Yes, attachment, impermanence, dukkha. - all things come and go.... > I am a little more aware of that now than I was a year or two ago. > Or, at least, I eventually remember it, usually after I've reacted > emotionally to something. But occasionally, I am starting to be > aware as feelings are rising....hope that's the one small step > towards liberation that you mentioned......the difficulty is getting > from intellectually understanding something, to "knowing" it. And it > is the "knowing" of it that is necessary before it becomes an > automatic response. > > metta, > Christine > 11763 From: Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 5:47pm Subject: study program Lucy and Christine, anyone else? I would be interested in any kind of study program you want to do. I just started "Abhidhammattha Sangaha" but I could probably keep up if we studied something else and went slowly. Do you think we should memorize it? Larry 11764 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sujin Boriharnwannaket- Larry Dear Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > This is great, ideal, perfect!!! Very clear; I like it. Anytime. Actually I'm just hoping it might even qualify for a photo (yours!) in the dsg album......;-) I will try to remember to put any questions from you, along with Victor's, in the 'short, sharp, succinct' drawer for reply. (Just hope I don't get them mixed up with Rob Ep's in the 'write a book' for reply drawer;-) My only quibble > is I would say there is both a real hand and a concept of a hand. Larry, let me ask One question: How is the 'real hand' experienced? >The > proof that we don't conventionally experience wholeness is that if we > did there wouldn't be any curiosity. Would you elaborate, please. Sarah (trying to communicate with Larry's email censor;-)) ============================================= > >Sarah wrote: > Larry, > Here goes with the 'short succinct' reply;-) > 1. Only ultimate realities are real, i.e. namas and rupas > 2. Concepts are not ultimate realities > 3. rupa, citta and cetasikas (i.e. namas and rupas) are conditioned or > compounded > 4. Nibbana is the one ultimate reality which is not conditioned > 5. Only ultimate realities actually exist at this moment, but because of > ignorance we take concepts --including self-- to actually exist. In fact > they are a figment of the imagination only. > 6. You say we don't 'conventionally experience wholeness', but what > about everytime we think there' s a hand, a finger, a keyboard, a > screen, some writing and so on? > 7. You ask 'what do we have to talk about?' We could talk about ultimate > realties in more detail for a start.... > Hope this passes your email system;-) Thanks for mentioning your > request. > Sarah 11765 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana- Herman Dear Herman, --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I accept what you are saying. > > But....... I know, there’s always a ‘But’..... > The Internet is an undirected and anonymous medium. The things that > are posted here are seen by beginners, apprentice beginners and sub- > junior apprentice beginners alike. And the people out there in > Internet Land have no way of knowing who are the mountain climbers, > and who the couch potatoes are. I agree with all this (I guess ‘sub junior apprentice beginners’ are more advanced than apprentice beginners??? -just trying to work out the hierarchy;-)) But...... As we both relate to teaching kids, let’s return for a moment to our kids in the playground and the one who wants to go for Mt Everest this weekend..... By getting to know the kids better-- whether by living with them, observing them or asking questions-- one begins to get more idea of which ones can happily play in the playground or even in the surf while one reads a book and which ones need a little attention and instruction. After watching the programme on mountain climbng, it may be that there are a couple of kids in the world who are watching that are properly prepared and could begin to tackle Mt Everest this weekend. Who are we to say this isn’t possible or they aren’t out there, unknown to us? On the otherhand, if the kids in front of us have to be dragged out of bed in the morning, don’t know the difference between a right and left foot and make a fuss about walking down the road to the nearest shop, we can perhaps conclude that from what we know and hear --even though we may not be experts ourselves and may also prefer the car-ride to the shop-- that these kids have a fair way to go on the basics first. > What are the main dangers of following the Buddha's instructions? No dangers I know of. On the other hand, following on from the kids’ analogy above, if we don’t know the difference between wholesome and unwholesome states of mind now, can we really know if we’re following the Buddha’s instructions? Sarah ===================================================== 11766 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Re: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Dear Frank, Just buting in on a few of your recent posts I found interesting and very useful for further discussion for us all: --- frank kuan wrote: > Both meditation and proper understanding of dhamma are > important, but consider this. Every retreat I've ever > done, 3 day, 10 day, formal or alone, the impact it > has on the radical reduction of dukkha in my moment to > moment experience upon leaving the meditation retreat > is far more noticable than months of dhamma study. > Every time without fail. .......... This reminds me of an earlier post you wrote in response to a question on laughter. You wrote: F:> I wouldn't worry too much about eliminating laughter. What I do is assess my practice in terms of what items are causing me the greatest suffering, and I address those problems with the highest priority first. I have noticed that my laughter and sense of humor has changed over the years. .......... While I agree that the priority should not be to eliminate laughter and humour, I question whether any practice should be evaluated in terms of ‘radical reduction of dukkha....’ or ‘what items are causing me the greatest suffering’. From these comments it sounds like your main concern is not the development of understanding and detachment from any reallity presenting itself --which will lead to higher levels of insight eventually--, but with the urgent reduction of what you find unpleasant in life, i.e unwholesome vipaka and ‘unpleasant’ reactions to experiences, usually referred to as dukkha dukkha or the 1st kind of dukkha*. As we know , the 2nd kind of dukkha refers to the changing nature of that which is pleasant and the 3rd kind (as in the 4NT) -- as Herman just reminded Larry-- refers to the inherently impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory nature of ALL conditioned realities, including sati, panna and samadhi. You mention in a more recent post still ‘that seeing dukkha becomes instinct’ and that ‘with meditation, witnessing the 3 marks seems to happen without thought and concepts’. As we know, the first stage of insight is clearly understanding the precise difference between namas and rupas which arise at this moment (not just at particular times or places). Do we clearly understanding the characteristics of seeing, hearing, visible object and sound? Are these clearly understood as anatta when they appear? Do we have an idea that these are less ‘dukkha’ or ‘anicca’ or ‘anatta’ than say ‘aversion’ or ‘painful feeling’? Is there truly detachment to what arises now? As I understand the texts, whether we like to meditate, hike, do yoga or play with kids in the playground, if there isn’t a lot of study and development of awareness of all these different realities, there will be no way of developing the very advanced stages of insight that not only understand the conditioned nature of all these phenomena, but later still, the arising and falling away and thereby, the unsatisfactoriness or dukkha, of these same phenomena. > Dhamma study can not be neglected, but to me it seems > like we have to honestly assess what the proper ratio > between right concentration and right understanding to > develop/work on in our daily routine. Who or what makes the decision, choice and does the developing or work? Thanks for your stimulating comments, Frank and hope you found the ‘plucked out eye’ good for reflection the other day too;-) Sarah *detailed posts on the 3 kinds of dukkha can be found under ‘dukkha’ at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts =================================================== 11767 From: Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:19pm Subject: reality and wholeness Dear Sarah, You asked how is the real hand experienced in response to my assertion that there is both a real hand and a concept of a hand. I would say that the real hand is experienced by citta process, which I am assuming is real and is not _necessarily_ with concepts, i.e. names. I only have a very sketchy idea of what citta process is but I would guess that "determining consciousness" (votthapanacitta) is the one that needs to be discussed if I have it wrong. As for wholeness, to me wholeness is the mathematical totality of all the parts of an object. Since any object has limitless parts, I think it is safe to say that no one, not even the Buddha, has experienced every single part of any object. However, I would also say, on further reflection, what I think Buddhaghosa means by "wholeness" is a separate, singular, distinct unity and I do agree that we quite commonly experience this as separate, distinct things, ideas, feelings, cittas, cetasikas etc. I think if I go any further I will just confuse the issue. (I just had a thought; maybe the uncompounded element is the uncompoundedness of apparently compounded reality???) back to you, Larry 11768 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Dear Christine, Lucy, Larry & all, i think that any reading or study that encourages us to consider dhammas more carefully is very helpful and it's good to make it fun too;-) I think your idea below of reading a chapter a week (or even just a page a week) of Abhidhamma in D.L. -- we can refer to is as ADL--and discussing, giving daily life examples, asking questions and so on is a really good one, especially as it's available on several websites and therefore easy to access and quote from. Abhidhamattha Sangaha, which someone suggested, is also a good one to work on. The only thing is that personally, I like the B.Bodhi translation best, but this isn't on the net yet. Perhaps by the time you finish ADL it will be. The Atthasalini is also a very readible abhidhamma text, but again it's not available on net. I think that with any of these texts, going really slowly is best. In Bkk at the foundation, they are reading Nina's translation of 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', but recently returned to the start again because there was too much not understood. (Return to 'Go' everytime you answer a question wrongly;-) Maybe Lucy or Chris could quote a passage (in order or just one from the chapter under discussion that is tricky) and you can start discussing it with one of the 'experts' like Nina helping out when you or we get into deep water...... Look forward to hearing more....With Lucy and Chris adding their comments and stories, no one will ever say abhidhamma is boring again;-) Sarah p.s. Lucy, your bhavanga and other questions hardly qualify for the nursery corner I'm afraid;-) ===================================================== --- Lucy wrote: > Hi Christine ! > > Yes, the digestible size is especially welcome. I would like "slow" > reading > (like a chapter per week, at most) so I can munch it over several > days... I > quite like Abhidhamma in Daily Life as an all-round introduction, but am > open to any suggestions. Perhaps some of the "pros" can give us a hint. > > > Maybe if some of us just start anyone else is very welcome to jump > > in at any time as well. > > Yeah , sure - There must be quite a few people on the list who are quite > daunted with the advanced talk. Perhaps this will encourage a few to > join? > (if the moderators don't mind making like a nursery corner somewhere on > the > list???) 11769 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a few > questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly those > whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder about > the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg may > be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal > Sitting Meditation that I have questions. I think there are other members who would be able to answer these questions a lot more helpfully than me, but I just want to say that I really appreciate your concerns and the raising of these points which as you suggest are probably shared by the majority of people here. Many thanks. > Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the > questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one hour > sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any > variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a > primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and > anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as a > secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the secondary > object passes away or diminishes." > If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they please > give the scriptural quotes that support their answer? > > 1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably shown > by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain > Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably > mean 'formal sitting meditation.' I think that this is a question for those advocating meditation as you define it above to be essential. I’ll be interested to read any references which suggest this. > 2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary for > Enlightenment? Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting > Meditation - or does it happen any other way? The first part of this question was addressed recently by Nina with references to suggest otherwise. There are further posts with references under ‘Jhana and Vipassana’ or ‘Samatha and vipassana (or similar)at; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts (let me know if you can’t find them ) Humour me while I’m still dreaming of Mt Everest for a moment, Chris;-) We could describe the conditions prevailing when someone has reached the summit in terms of clothing, gear, altitude, view, feelings, breath and so on. However, understanding just a very little about the value of this quest doesn’t mean that we start off by wearing this particular garb, walking around with the Summit gear, or breathing in a way which resembles that at 29,000ft. We need to learn the basics. What is kusala now? What is lobha now? What are the objects of samatha? What is metta? Is there metta now? What is generosity? What is wise reflection on death? Is there a wish to develop calm or jhana now? Do we see why wishing is an obstacle for the development of samatha?......and so on. There are again many posts with references on these topics under ‘samatha’, ‘jhana’, ‘satipatthana and sitting meditation’. For further references, I’d suggest the Visuddhimagga, Abhidhamma and Sutta commentaries (Actually, I’d say all the Suttanta too, but the problem is we understand the suttas differently according to our inclinations), > 3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*, > *mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures > interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ? I’ll try a bit of Num’s reverse engineering. Actually I’d love one of the Pali experts (like Jim) or anyone else to add more detail: concentration- usually a transl. of samadhi, ekaggata or samatha. (Jon recently discussed the differences in these meanings). contemplation - usually a transl. of sampajanna awareness, mindfulness - usu. a transl. of sati or satipatthana meditation - usu. a transl of bhavana (which can refer to samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana), or a transl. of jhaayatha (discussed by rob K recently)or a close relation of this form as in the sutta ‘the Scholar and the Meditator’. .......... Others like Howard, Frank, Rob Ep, Rob K, Num & Kom and so on may have more comments to add in due course.... .......... On a personal note, it was when I really started studying and considering what the texts were saying (as opposed to just listening to a meditation teacher) that I realized that the development of any kind of wholesomeness need not be bound-- or even assisted-- in anyway by an idea of time, place or technique. Nearly 30 years later, I have a tremendous feeling of ‘gratitude’ or ‘relief’ that this is so; that it is a level pegging field for us all at any time, regardless of lifestyle, how many hours a day we work, how many kids we have, whether we’re in the city or the forest or whatever. There are always opportunities for one kind of kusala (wholesome state) or other at this moment and any idea of ‘if only.....xyz conditions were different’ is totally useless. The key as Victor recently posted (whether for samatha or vipassana development) is ‘understanding’....Understanding is the forerunner or the dawn.... Just a few thoughts for now. Perhaps someone else will add more specific references as I'm a little short of time. metta, Sarah ============================================ 11770 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] reality and wholeness Dear Larry, 1. There can be citta processes through the sense doors (eye, ear...body-sense) or through the mind door with bhavanga cittas (life-continuum cittas) in between. 2. Cittas in the eye-door process experience visible object and so on. When there is an idea of ‘hand’ which is seen or felt, it is actually a concept experienced by the ‘thinking’ cittas in the following mind-door process. 3. The reason it seems so real is because of the nature of sanna (perception) and other mental factors co-ordinating so well to disguise the true nature of reality. Of course, the main culprits in this game of disguise are ditthi (wrong view) and moha (ignorance). 4. It’s true as you suggest, that there are different kinds of concepts: some represent realities such as sati or visible object, some represent conventional truths, such as hand or computer and some represent non-truths by any calculation;-) 5. Votthapana (determining consciousness) precedes the javana (‘running through’ cittas in a sense-door or mind-door process. It’s a kiriya (inoperative) citta unlike the vipaka cittas or kusala/akusala ones following it, but the object is the same, i.e. visible object in the eye-door process. Stil, no hand.... 6. Would you give me the Buddhaghosa passage or reference to wholeness which you have in mind... Back to you, Sarah p.s Kom or anyone, pls let me know if I slip up on any details ================================================ --- --- 11771 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:28am Subject: Re: study program Dear Larry, An interesting question, but I don't think it is necessary to memorise anything - I would go further and say that, for some of us, it is neither desirable or nor possible. :-) Glad you want to join in ......... has Lucy disappeared until next weekend? We need to co-ordinate... metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Lucy and Christine, anyone else? > > I would be interested in any kind of study program you want to do. I > just started "Abhidhammattha Sangaha" but I could probably keep up if we > studied something else and went slowly. Do you think we should memorize > it? > > Larry 11772 From: frank kuan Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:51am Subject: Re: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Hi Sarah, --- Sarah wrote: > While I agree that the priority should not be to > eliminate laughter and > humour, I question whether any practice should be > evaluated in terms of > ‘radical reduction of dukkha....’ or ‘what items are > causing me the > greatest suffering’. From these comments it sounds > like your main concern > is not the development of understanding and > detachment from any reallity > presenting itself --which will lead to higher levels > of insight > eventually--, but with the urgent reduction of what > you find unpleasant > in life, i.e unwholesome vipaka and ‘unpleasant’ > reactions to experiences, > usually referred to as dukkha dukkha or the 1st kind > of dukkha*. If I was only interested in tempering dukkha dukkha, then I wouldn't be studying buddhism. The radical reduction of dukkha and eventual cessation of it can not happen without deeply penetrating the workings of reality at the level of intellectual understanding AND direct experience/realization. My main point is that the intellectual understanding alone is not enough, and the direct experience/realization of dukkha can not happen without sufficient level of right concentration. Washing dishes and other mundane activities may be a good exercise for mindfulness, but not single pointed attention. Single pointed attention does not have to be developed by sitting meditation (one could stand), but it's certainly a time honored way and the most relaxed and natural posture for sustained and prolonged sessions. -fk 11773 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:01am Subject: India Ch 7, no. 2 When sati of satipatthåna arises, it can be aware of realities that appear through the six doorways. One can begin to be aware of nåma, the reality that experiences, and rúpa, the reality that does not experience, even though their characteristics are not yet clearly understood. There can gradually more understanding of nåma and rúpa. There are seven kinds of rúpa that appear all the time in daily life: visible object appears through the eye-door, sound through the ear-door, odour through the nose-door, and flavour through the tongue-door. Through the bodysense there is the experience of solidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as motion or pressure. After these rúpas have been experienced through their relevant sense-doors, they are experienced through the mind-door. Afterwards other mind-door processes of cittas arise that know concepts on account of the rúpas that have been experienced. Processes of cittas experiencing rúpas through the sense-door and then through the mind-door arise and fall away extremely rapidly. We do not notice it that a particular rúpa is experienced through the mind-door after it has been experienced through a sense-door. We are ignorant of the mind-door process. Nåmas, citta and cetasika, are experienced only through the mind-door. When there is awareness of seeing it has arisen in a sense-door process and then fallen away, but its characteristic still appears and it can be object of mindfulness arising in another process. We listen to the Dhamma and in this way we have more understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, be it nåma or rúpa, be it kusala or akusala. When understanding based on listening has been developed there are conditions for the arising of direct awareness of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time. When satipatthåna has been developed more thoroughly, stages of vipassanå ñåna, insight knowledge, can be reached. The first stage is: distinguishing the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa, nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåna. This kind of paññå realizes through the mind-door the difference between nåma and rúpa. A moment of insight knowledge is different from the moments when nåma and rúpa seem to appear together, such as seeing and visible object. When insight knowledge arises there is no self, nåma and rúpa appear one at a time as non-self. There is no world, no thinking of concepts of person or thing, there is nothing else appearing but nåma and rúpa. When nåma and rúpa appear as they are through the mind-door, there is no doubt about what nåma is and what rúpa is, and no confusion about what the mind-door is. There is no thinking about the different doorways, the cittas arising in a sense-door process and the mind-door process succeed one another extremely rapidly. After the moments of vipassanå ñåna have fallen away, doubt arises again, and thus, one has to continue developing insight so that the following stages of vipassanå ñåna can arise. However, one should be detached and not try to reach higher stages. Acharn Sujin said: ³Ignorance and desire are hindrances to the development of vipassanå. One should not be interested in it whether the next stage of vipassanå ñåna arises or not, otherwise there are expectations again. It does not matter when the next stage of vipassanå ñåna arises. With vipassanå ñåna paññå has reached another level. Paññå is non-self.² 11774 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] the object of bhavanga-cittas op 09-03-2002 17:03 schreef Lucy op selene@c...: Lucy wrote: > Can someone please explain something about the object of bhavanga citta? > > From Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" Chapter 15 > > " The cuti-citta has only the function of being the dying-moment of that > life. The cuti-citta is vipakacitta produced by the kamma which produced > the patisandhi-citta and the bhavanga-cittas of the life which is just > ending; it is of the same type as these cittas and it experiences the same > object. > When the cuti-citta has fallen away the patisandhi-citta of the following > life arises, which citta may be of a different type, depending on the kamma > which produces it. This patisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the > last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The > patisandhi-citta, all bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of the next life > experience that object. > ---------------------------- > From Visuddhi Magga XIV : > > "As soon as rebirth-consciousness (in the embryo at the time of conception) > has ceased, there arises a similar subconsciousness with exactly the same > object, following immediately upon rebirth-consciousness and being the > result of this or that karma (volitional action done in a former birth and > remembered there at the moment before death). And again a further similar > state of subconsciousness arises. Now, as long as no other consciousness > arises to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream, so long the > life-stream, like the flow of a river, rises in the same way again and > again, even during dreamless sleep and at other times. In this way one has > to understand the continuous arising of those states of consciousness in > the life-stream." > ----------------------------- > > My questions: > > I read these paragraphs as saying that the bhavanga cittas have one and a > same object throughout life. Does this imply that the object remains > *unchanged* through a life-span? How can this be? Or does it actually mean > the "same kind / species of object"? > Or am I mis-reading the whole thing??? Dear Lucy, the object of the rebirth-consciousness is the same as the object experienced by the last javana cittas before dying. The object of the last javana cittas in life can be a symbol of the kamma one performed or a sign of the place of one's next birth, it can be an object experienced through one of the six doorways. Then, kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness after the cuti-citta has fallen away, the rebirth-consciousness experiences the same object, it is like an echo or the impression of a seal. This object is not experienced through any of the six doorways, it is quite different from the objects such as visible object or sound we experience all the time. The bhavanga-citta succeeding the rebirth-consciousness experiences again the same object. (See Visuddhimagga XVII, 165-166). Thus, it is quite different from an object that impinges on one of the six doorways and then falls away. If we think of an echo it may help to understand this. > Lucy: Also wondering about this: ".... as long as no other consciousness arises > to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream" (and similar descriptions > of the succession of citta). As we understand "subconscious", it is > something continuously running below the conscious. But the Abdhidhamma > descriptions of the process seems to indicate that the "subconscious" > (bhavanga citta) is interrupted every time another consciousness arises. > When the interruption by other consciousness stops and bhavanga citta > arises again, does it do so exactly as it was before being interrupted??? N: Yes, because kamma keeps on producing the same type of bhavangacitta throughout life. The bhavanga-citta arises and then falls away, and it is succeeded by the next citta, and, if the stream of bhavanga-cittas is not interrupted by cittas arising in a process that experience an object through one of the six doors, the next citta is also a bhavanga-citta of the same type. It is not the same citta but similar, it is accompanied by the same types of cetasikas. The term sub-consciousness is not correct, not precise, it suggests another consciousness existing at the same time, and there can only be one citta at a time experiencing one object. > Lucy: What are the cetasikas of the bhavanga citta? N: It depends on the kamma that produces the rebirth-consciousness and thus also the bhavangacitta. There are nineteen types, and these are accompanied by different cetasikas. We are born in the human plane, and thus, the bhavanga-citta is kusala vipaka: it can be without beautiful roots (in the case of those handicapped from the first moment of life), or one of the eight types of maha-vipakacittas, vipakacittas accompanied by beautiful roots: with wisdom or without it, with pleasant feeling or with indifferent feeling, etc. (See Abh in Daily Life, Ch 11). > I like to quote from a post I wrote before on Acharn Sujin's Survey of Paramattha dhammas where she explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that when one is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does not experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one experiences all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects give rise to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the function of keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast asleep and also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an echo of the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the citta. It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements arise. I quote: < The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no lovingkindness nor compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant.> End quote. I can imagine that not everything is clear, you chose a difficult subject. Seeing and hearing are cittas that we can understand more easily. Best wishes from Nina. 11775 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] the object of bhavanga-cittas Thank you Nina for the wonderfully clear explanation. It will now be printed and studied with much grateful attention. Best wishes & anjali Lucy 11776 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] study program ----- Original Message ----- From: > Lucy and Christine, anyone else? > > Do you think we should memorize > it? > Have to pass on the memorization - Not enough RAM left in this battered old brain : ) Lucy 11777 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" > > i think that any reading or study that encourages us to consider dhammas > more carefully is very helpful and it's good to make it fun too;-) > > > Look forward to hearing more....With Lucy and Chris adding their comments > and stories, no one will ever say abhidhamma is boring again;-) > Uh-oh, Sarah...No giggling allowed in the "Valley of Dry Bones" ! Best wishes Lucy 11778 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: study program ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" > Glad you want to join in ......... has Lucy disappeared until next > weekend? We need to co-ordinate... No, she's here with all her khandhas. I'm happy with any text you or Larry want to start with. I think we should look into Sarah's suggestions, don't you? Best wishes Lucy 11779 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: study program Dear Lucy, Larry and All, I would be happy to go along with Sarahs' suggestion,that is, if neither of you has a strong alternate preference? metta, Chris "I think your idea below of reading a chapter a week (or even just a page a week) of Abhidhamma in D.L. -- we can refer to is as ADL--and discussing, giving daily life examples, asking questions and so on is a really good one, especially as it's available on several websites and therefore easy to access and quote from. --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "christine_forsyth" > > Glad you want to join in ......... has Lucy disappeared until next > > weekend? We need to co-ordinate... > > No, she's here with all her khandhas. I'm happy with any text you or Larry > want to start with. I think we should look into Sarah's suggestions, don't > you? > > Best wishes > Lucy 11780 From: Lucy Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: study program Hi all Good morning Christine...Good evening Larry... Fine with me. Larry? ADL Chapter 1 could be a start --- maybe we can look it over and check what points each has to bring up --- no need to gulp it all at once, I hope! Good night from me Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" > Dear Lucy, Larry and All, > > I would be happy to go along with Sarahs' suggestion,that is, if > neither of you has a strong alternate preference? > > metta, > Chris > > "I think your idea below of reading a chapter a week (or even just a > page a > week) of Abhidhamma in D.L. -- we can refer to is as ADL--and > discussing, > giving daily life examples, asking questions and so on is a really > good > one, especially as it's available on several websites and therefore > easy > to access and quote from. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., "Lucy" wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "christine_forsyth" > > > Glad you want to join in ......... has Lucy disappeared until next > > > weekend? We need to co-ordinate... > > > > No, she's here with all her khandhas. I'm happy with any text you > or Larry > > want to start with. I think we should look into Sarah's > suggestions, don't > > you? > > > > Best wishes > > Lucy > 11781 From: Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Dear Sarah, Lucy, Chris, Larry and everyone; <> The translation of Abhidhammattha-sangaha (AMS) by Ven. Narada is available on the net at: http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/sangaha.htm He kept the original pali, then put in the translation, and also put some addendum and at the end of each topic he translated and explained some Pali words, word by word. I have never read the version of B.Bodhi, so I could not tell what is the difference. For me, I like AMS b/c it's well organized and concise but it's not that easy. Any way, as the Buddha said <>. I usually have to come back and read some parts over, I feel he same: I never read the same book twice. I meant that usually I learn something new every time I reread it. Let me anumodhana and share with you words of appreciation in your guys' interest and study. As you all have already known, studying is not only in the book. Daily life is the best textbook of dhamma. I encourage all kinds of kusala action. BTW, hope you guys don't mind me signing up for the class as well. I have to audit the class though, kind of pretty busy. Best wishes, Num NYC 11782 From: Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:20am Subject: Re:[dsg] Paticcasamuppada (single moment) Hi Robert, Thanks for your detailed answer. I am still out of town. I will definitely have to study more about paticcasamuppada. Appreciate your paticcasamuppada series. Num NYC 11783 From: Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: study program Lucy, Christine, Num I'm in, ADL chapter 1, questions etc tomorrow. BTW I picked up a rumor that Yahoo groups will be down next weekend. Larry 11784 From: Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Thanks for this link Num. I have the Bhikkhu Bodhi/U Rewata Dhamma version, they did the "explanatory guide", which is very helpful, and they used Narada's trans, revised by B Bodhi. Larry 11785 From: egberdina Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:39pm Subject: Re: jhana- Herman Dear Sarah, Thank you for this. I recently read an unreferenced statement along these lines : Only a person who has a rebirth thought with three roots can experience jhana. Any ideas what sutta or comentary this would be based on? Ciao for now Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Herman, > > --- egberdina wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > I accept what you are saying. > > > > But....... > > > I know, there's always a `But'..... > > > > The Internet is an undirected and anonymous medium. The things that > > are posted here are seen by beginners, apprentice beginners and sub- > > junior apprentice beginners alike. And the people out there in > > Internet Land have no way of knowing who are the mountain climbers, > > and who the couch potatoes are. > > > I agree with all this (I guess `sub junior apprentice beginners' are more > advanced than apprentice beginners??? -just trying to work out the > hierarchy;-)) > > But...... > > As we both relate to teaching kids, let's return for a moment to our kids > in the playground and the one who wants to go for Mt Everest this > weekend..... > > By getting to know the kids better-- whether by living with them, > observing them or asking questions-- one begins to get more idea of which > ones can happily play in the playground or even in the surf while one > reads a book and which ones need a little attention and instruction. > > After watching the programme on mountain climbng, it may be that there are > a couple of kids in the world who are watching that are properly prepared > and could begin to tackle Mt Everest this weekend. Who are we to say this > isn't possible or they aren't out there, unknown to us? On the otherhand, > if the kids in front of us have to be dragged out of bed in the morning, > don't know the difference between a right and left foot and make a fuss > about walking down the road to the nearest shop, we can perhaps conclude > that from what we know and hear --even though we may not be experts > ourselves and may also prefer the car-ride to the shop-- that these kids > have a fair way to go on the basics first. > > > > What are the main dangers of following the Buddha's instructions? > > No dangers I know of. On the other hand, following on from the kids' > analogy above, if we don't know the difference between wholesome and > unwholesome states of mind now, can we really know if we're following the > Buddha's instructions? > > Sarah > ===================================================== > > > > 11786 From: Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:42pm Subject: ADL ch 1 Here's the first little bit. Chapter 1 THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. What we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. The 'Visuddhimagga' ('Path of Purity', a commentary) explains (Ch. XVIII, 25): For this has been said: . 'As with the assembly of parts The word "chariot" is countenanced, So, When the khandhas are present, 'A being' is said in common usage' (Kindred Sayings I, 135. The five khandhas (aggregates) are nothing else but nama and rupa. See Ch.2.) …So in many hundred suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles... are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each part is examined, there is no chariot, ...so too,... there comes to be the mere conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption ' I am' or ' I ' ; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision. 11787 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:36pm Subject: Re:[dsg] Ayatanas revisited Dear Num, --- srnsk@a... wrote: > Dear Nina, Sarah, Robert and everyone > > May I ask quick follow-up questions about ayatana, kind of theoretical. > Sarah, it was not clear from your post, so you said that all citta are > manayatana not only bhavanga citta, correct? I also saw that in some > places > mentioned that only bhavanga-citta is manayatana, as I understand it > refers > to manodvara not manayatana. Sorry if it wasn't clear.....(not surprising as it isn't very clear to me either;-)) What I think I said was that --according to my very limited understanding-- manayatana (mind base) ‘refers to all cittas, including lokuttara and all bhavanga cittas strictly speaking’. I’m quoting myself, but when I wrote I was looking at a note from my discussion w/K.Sujin on this. What she also mentioned was that manayatana ‘doesn’t usually refer to bhavanga citta because “who knows these?”’ In the texts which were quoted before, we read how ‘the six types of consciousness are included in the mindbase (manayatana)'. You mention that in some place only bhavanga citta is mentioned. I think in this case it is bhavanguppacheda (sp?-arrest bhavanga) which performs the function of manodvara (mind door) which is being referred to and which is included in manayatana. Perhaps you would give the exact reference for this. > If citta has pasadarupa as its aramana, can we call pasadarupa at that > moment > dhammayatana. The same thing if one can have others or even one's own > (previous) citta as arammana, can we call that citta dhammayatana ??? I’m sure Nina would know better than me, but let me just speculate. At a moment of seeing, the citta has pasada rupa as object, visible object in this case. Visible object is rupayatana, not dhammayatana. Now if the reality of visible object is experienced in the succeeding mind-door process only, I think we’d say it’s the same rupayatana. If it’s a concept experienced (as now), then it’s a concept and not any ayatana. Concepts are definitely not included in dhammayatana which should not be confused with dhammarammana (which can include concepts. So others’ cittas can be included (as concepts) under dhammarammana. As we discussed before, in the Satipatthana Sutta, when there is thinking about the others, it is one’s own citta or cetasika only that is meant as an object of dhammanusati (awareness of mental objects). Likewise, with regard to one’s previous citta (unless it’s the citta just fallen), it will be a concept only and therefore cannot be included in dhammayatana. As you mentioned before from the texts, dhammayatana refers to the 52 cetasikas, the 16 subtle rupas and nibbana only as I recall. Classifying the cetasikas, subtle rupas and even nibbana in this way reminds me how they cannot arise --or in the case of nibbana, be experienced-- without citta. Citta is the base or cause or forerunner as we read in the Atthasalini. I think Nina wrote about this before in the earlier discussion on ayatanas when you were discussing the reason why cetasikas are classified as external ayatanas. Let me know what you think, Num and if you can give any refs to anything which sounds different, I’d be glad to hear. Nina or Rob K, please also let me know anytime if I make mistakes in these tricky areas. Sarah ====================================================== 11788 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment Dear Christine, Frank, Rob Ep, (Rob K & Jim), Jim sent me these comments which I’d like to just include (he’s referring to my brief comments below to Christine’s qus): .......... Jim: “These are really very difficult questions. In your answer, it's not correct to say that "jhaayatha" (which is an imperative 2nd pers. pl. verb) is the Pali for meditation (a noun). I think I saw recently that Nina had rendered this verb as "contemplate". There doesn't seem to be an English word that adequately covers the two aspects of "jhaayatha" (ie develop samatha and/or vipassana). I suppose vipassana practitioners would be more inclined to read "contemplate" while samatha practitioners would opt for "meditate". Another Pali word for contemplation is 'anupassanaa' which is close to vipassana. For 'sampaja~n~na' I usually think of clear comprehension but I haven't yet studied this word. It's closely related to pa~n~naa in its derivation (shares the same root '~naa' and prefix 'pa') and meaning.” .......... I’ve just checked the reference I mentioned from “The Scholar and the Meditator” from AN. The Pali for these terms is ‘dhammayogaa bhikkhuu & jhaayii bhikkhuu’. I think this is an interesting sutta to consider and discuss. I’d be glad if you read a post I sent before and let me hear any comments: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7421 Please also refer again to Rob K’s post in which he quotes Jim further on ‘jhaayatha’ and further texts like dhp in which we read ‘meditate’: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 .......... Sorry, this is such a Pali-packed post, but then the three of you are rather pushing us into a Pali corner;-) Keep up the challenging comments and questions. Jim is about to be out of contact for a few months, but I’d like to say how much some of us have appreciated your presence, Jim, and at least we have your ‘youthful’ picture to enjoy in the meantime;-) Best wishes and we’ll look forward to your return. Thanks to all, Sarah ========= 11789 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: study program Hi Larry - there's something I need to tell you about me. Do you remember when you were at school, there was always one child who arrived saying "Please, Ma'am, I did my homework but the dog ate it." or, "Please, Ma'am, I did my homework but my baby brother flushed it down the toilet" ? Well, that child was someone very much like me...... I need another day or so........ metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., LBIDD@w... wrote: > Lucy, Christine, Num > > I'm in, ADL chapter 1, questions etc tomorrow. > > BTW I picked up a rumor that Yahoo groups will be down next weekend. > > Larry 11790 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: meditation vs. Re: [dsg] dhammastudy Hi Frank, --- frank kuan wrote: > Hi Sarah, > If I was only interested in tempering dukkha > dukkha, then I wouldn't be studying buddhism. Sorry If I misunderstood;-( >The > radical reduction of dukkha and eventual cessation of > it can not happen without deeply penetrating the > workings of reality at the level of intellectual > understanding AND direct experience/realization. In full agreement here;-) >My > main point is that the intellectual understanding > alone is not enough, and the direct > experience/realization of dukkha can not happen > without sufficient level of right concentration. ....and here...right concentration accompanying right understanding and right everthingelse... > Washing dishes and other mundane activities may be a > good exercise for mindfulness, but not single pointed > attention. >Single pointed attention does not have to > be developed by sitting meditation (one could stand), > but it's certainly a time honored way and the most > relaxed and natural posture for sustained and > prolonged sessions. I don't understand it to be the 'activity' (whether washing dishes or sitting meditation) that is the 'good exercise' but rather the hearing, considering, intellectual right understanding and beginning to be aware of phenomena now..... In addition to the comments made in my last post, I'd also like to remind you of all the different paramattha dhammas discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta and the dicussion in the sutta and its commentaries with regard to the development of awareness in all positions and whilst eating, wearing cloaks, taking care of bodily functions and so on. If the citta and mind states are kusala (wholesome) now, then concentration (ekaggata cetasika) will be wholesome accordingly. If there is samma-sati and samma-ditthi now, rt concentration will also be right without any other special 'exercise'. On the other hand, if the citta and mind states are akusala (unwholesome) now, then concentration will be unwholesome regardless of the activity. I'd be glad to hear any references to the contrary. As we read in Dhp 1. 'Mind (mano) is the fore-runner of all conditions.....' I'm sure there are many people here appreciating your comments and participation, Frank. Sarah ======== 11791 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 2:02am Subject: Re: Paticasamuppada VII Hi Robert, I found this topic quite difficult to come to some beginning understanding of ..... I am studying your post alongside Chapter 2 Object-Condition (Aramanna-Paccaya) in Ninas' "Conditions - an outline of the twenty-four Paccaya". (This is one of the books the kind friends in BKK gave me, and for which I feel much gratitude.) As I hate starting any book part way through (always wonder what I've missed), I read the Preface, Introduction and Ch. 1 Hetu-paccaya (root condition) first. Finding a bit more understanding about anatta 'no self', and that day to day life is conditioned and thus beyond real control, and, for me, this is valuable. Seems to me that Abhidhamma studies take the whole world as I know it apart, and shows there is no-one there, and now the looking at Conditions shows how everything is connected and works in various relationships, and also shows there is no-one there. The paragraph in your post that had an impact on me is: "There is so quickly reaction to the object with kusala citta (wholesome midstate) or akusala citta (unwholesome): these are sankhara link (formations) of the Paticcasamuppada and this 'reaction' is conditioned by root-condition, hetu-paccaya, and by other conditions. We may find it important what types of hetus (roots) arise in a day, and try to have more 'good' roots but it is all conditioned and conditioning. It is through seeing into conditions that the wrong view of self is being erased." Awareness in daily life, what objects we pay attention to, and the kind of attention (wise or unwise) we pay to these objects, seems to be crucial. I frequently experience and act on, quick unwholesome reactions to daily events and have been trying to have more 'good' roots - by attempting to remember not to react with aversion to certain situations - and failing in the attempt. Or not remembering until too late. So I guess that is the unwise attention.... The wise attention seems to arrive shortly (or a long while) afterwards, when I may have some understanding and compassion for others involved in the events. But this would seem to be more Reflection than Attention. Learning what I can from these posts, Robert, Thank-you metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear Group, > In this post I briefly speak about the relationship of the 24 paccaya of > the Patthana with Paticcasamuppada. > The Dhamma can be summed up as "this being that comes to be; with the > arising of this that arises. This not being that does not come to be; > with the cessation of this, that ceases". > Assaji said to sariputta "Of things that arise from a cause, their > cause the tathagatha has told and also their cessation, thus teaches > the great monk" > Ye dhamma hetuppabhava tesm hetum tathagato aha tesanca yo nirodho > evamvadi mahasamano > For Sariputta upon hearing this short verse he became a sotapanna. For us > more aspects need to be investigated so that we start to see > conditionality everywhere and in all things. > > The 24 modes of conditions: > 1. Hetu Paccaya ;- root condition > 2. Arammana Paccaya :- object condition > 3. adhipati Paccaya :- Predominance condition > 4: Anantara Paccaya :- Priority condition > 5. Smanantara Paccaya :- Contiguity condition > 6. Sahajata Paccaya :-Co-nascence condition > 7. Annamanna Paccaya :- Mutuality > 8. Nissaya Paccaya :- Support > 9. Upanissaya Paccaya :- Decisive Support > 10. Purejata Paccaya :- Pre-nascence > 11. Pacchajata Paccaya :- Post-nascence > 12. Asevana Paccaya :- Repetition > 13. Kamma Paccaya :- Karma > 14. Vipaka Paccaya :- Karma-result > 15. Ahara Paccaya :- Nutriment > 16. Indriya Paccaya :- Faculty > 17. Jhana Paccaya :- Jhana > 18. Magga Paccaya :- Path > 19. Sampayutta Paccaya :- Association > 20. Vippayutta Paccaya :- Dissociation > 21. Atthi Paccaya :- Presence > 22. Natthi Paccaya :- Absence > 23. Vigata Paccaya :-Disappearance > 24. Avigata Paccaya :-Non-disappearance > > All these Paccaya can be understood when we really understand > Paramatha Dhamma :- the 5 khandhas, the ayatanas , the elements. Some > people don't want to learn about these conditions because they find it > complex. But if we see that the Abhidhamma is happening now we can learn > to 'study' directly and then it becomes very relevant. > > Take object-condition (arammana -paccaya), each moment has an object. > What is the object now? Some objects are pleasant, > others are unpleasant, but either way it is only an > object conditioning the citta to experience it, it is a condition by being > its object. That is all, and then gone immediately. It may seem that it > lasts along time but really it has fallen away , even before we think > about it and a new one - perhaps similar to the earlier one - has arisen. > > There is so quickly reaction to the object > with kusala citta(wholesome mindstate) or akusala citta (unwholesome): > these are sankhara link(formations) of the Paticcasamuppada and this > 'reaction' is conditioned by root-condition, > hetu-paccaya, and by other conditions. We may find it important what types > of hetus(roots) arise in a day, and try to have more 'good' roots but it > is all conditioned and conditioning. It is through seeing into conditions > that the wrong view of self is being erased. > > In the beginning we may be confused about conditions and anatta and kamma > and Paticcasamuppada. Some wonder how there can be the result of kamma if > there is no self. > Mahapunnama Sutta (majjhima Nikaya 109): > "It is possible, bhikkhus, that some misguided man here, obtuse and > ignorant, with his mind dominated by craving, might think that he can > outstrip the > Teacher's Dispensation thus: `So, it seems, material form is not > self, feeling is not self, perception is not self, formations are not self > consciousness is not self. What self, then, will actions done by the > not-self affect?" > The Buddha knew the mind of a monk who had been listening to a profound > discourse about anatta and who had had this thought. > > The Buddha then said: "Now, bhikkhus, you have been > trained by me in dependent (conditionality) in various instances." And the > sutta continues to reinforce that all the khandhas are anatta. > "seeing thus, a well taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with > material form..feeling..perception..formations..consciousness... > ..now while this discourse was being spoken ..the minds of sixty bhikkhus > were liberated from the taints" > > > > Here are some more details about the second condition, arammana paccaya, > object condition. > Some objects are very desirable and then one gives preponderance to them; > they condition the citta by way of object predominance-condition, > arammanadhipati-paccaya. Only desirable objects can condition the citta > by way of object predominance-condition, not unpleasant objects, such as > painful feeling. Good deeds such as samatha or giving or the development > of right understanding can be object predominance-condition for the kusala > citta that esteems it and gives preponderance to it. This type of > condition (arammanaadhipati - paccaya) can be either kusala or akusala. > For instance, one may develop some moments of true calm and this is taken > as object predominance condition for citta rooted (hetu-paccaya) in > attachment. The feelings for both moments of true calm (kusala) and > attachment (akusala) can be either neutral or pleasant and so one might > not see the difference. However, if one learns to see conditionality in > all things these matters become clearer and clearer. > > Here is another example: I went to a office party yesterday. The food was > spread out on tables and it all looked delicious. Yet everyone had > preferences and this because of many conditions. I had tasted the raw > horsemeat (basashi) at an earlier party and found it not to my taste (one > of the 6 ayatana of the Paticcasamuppada). It was not object predominance > condition. Other friends relished it and discussed how fresh and delicious > it was. > When we like an object we accumulate clinging (upadana link of the > paticcasamuppada)and this can become stronger and stronger, the more it is > enjoyed or even the more it is thought about. Then it conditions clinging > by way of arammanaupanissaya -paccaya (strong dependence condition) and > becomes a strong condition for clinging to arise. It will condition more > moments of clinging also in the future. > If we learn to study these conditions directly such events as attending > parties become -as much as any other aspect of life- more ways to > investigate and detach from the idea of self. For instance, perhaps we > wonder why we are glance several times at the chocate fudge cake and only > once at the strawberry pavlova. This may be because of strong dependence > condition. > Or do we keep thinking of how we shouldn't eat too much? This might be > because one knows that excess food brings torpor OR it might be because of > strong attachment to being slim..in one case it is kusala in the other > akusala. If we have the idea that it is 'my' thinking or 'my' desire then > there is no understandning but we may learn to see into conditions that > there is no one controlling them, that they are void of self. > > Question: If they are uncontrollable, then what is the point of being > aware of them. I think we should try to control our thoughts and mind. > _____ > Robert K.:There is no one who is aware of them, nor can awareness be > controlled. If there is awareness (which is conditioned by various > factors) what it sees is this very fact - and that eliminates, at > deeper and deeper levels, the idea of self and control. It eliminates the > type of upadana (link of grasping in Patic.) that is wrong view. It > gradually reduces ignorance(avijja link). Thus vipassana is different from > samatha. Samatha supresses, correctly, clinging; but vipassana wears away > ignorance. > The surge (nidanasamyutta 69(9) bodhi p611 > "surging ignorance makes formations surge, surging consciousness > makes consciousness surge...surging birth causes ageing and death to > surge " > even so monks receding ignorance makes formaqtions recede, receding > formations make consciousness recede......receding birth makes ageing > and death recede." > > > There are differences between kilesa(defilements) at the level of mild > sadness or doubt or wanting and kilesa at the level that it shows itself > by bad behaviour. When we feel a little out of sorts it is called > pariyutthana (rising up) and when it becomes stronger > and goes beyond the stage of pariyutthana it is called vitikkama and > then unwholesome deeds are performed (classified as ten types). But > whether at the level of pariyutthana or vitikkama - or for that > matter anusaya(still latent) - all these are dhammas, not self and > uncontrollable in the deepest sense. It is very helpful to know more > about these details so that they can be noticed - to whatever degree > is appropriate for our level of understanding- in life. Then they > help to deepen insight into anattaness. > When we do something bad, such as I speak with a harsh voice because > my chidren are fighting, we can see how conditions work at these > times. Every citta, every different moment has an > object arammana paccaya (object condition). In the case of my > children the object is the concept of them fighting. Because of > attachment (lobha hetu paccya) the citta takes this object again and > again. If it were someone else's children, and happened say in a > shopping center, the citta would take the object only for a few > moments and then take a new object because there is not the same > degree of accumulated clinging to this object(as there is to 'my' > children) . > Or if it happened only once and there was no memory (composed of > sanna and thinking about concept)then the supporting conditions (such > as upanissaya paccaya) would not be strong. But when it happens many > times, and it is taken as arammana repeatedly, if there isn't > awareness or other kusala, it may very quickly conditions aversion > (pariyutthana) that can break out to the degree of vitikkama (harsh > speech in this case). If there is reflection and some insight into > this though, the aversion so quickly drops away - sometimes before it > reaches the stage of vitikkama , sometimes it won't arise at all. > robert > 11792 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment Dear Sarah, Just to say I really appreciate what you, Jim and Frank have contributed around this topic so far.....I have printed the posts off and need to consider them. Have mercy on those of us for whom much of the Dhamma is still a mystery! I need to think about terms and details and look things up before I get an understanding.... Oh for the day when I can just read a post like any other letter, and understand it without thinking.....And I've got homework with Lucy, Larry and Num :) many thanks, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@y..., Sarah wrote: > Dear Christine, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > > > Discussions I have read on this and other lists have raised a few > > questions in my mind. I thought that some of you, particularly those > > whose interest in Abhidhamma is relatively recent, may wonder about > > the same things too. I hope that more experienced members of dsg may > > be able clarify some points. It is mainly with regard to Formal > > Sitting Meditation that I have questions. > > I think there are other members who would be able to answer these > questions a lot more helpfully than me, but I just want to say that I > really appreciate your concerns and the raising of these points which as > you suggest are probably shared by the majority of people here. Many > thanks. > > > Formal Sitting Mediation being defined (for the purpose of the > > questions) as, or as similar to, - "regular daily half to one hour > > sessions of going to a quiet place, sitting on a cushion, in any > > variation of a cross legged position, eyes closed, watching a > > primary object (such as the breath at the abdomen or nose) and > > anything that arises (bodily feelings, thoughts, sounds etc.) as a > > secondary object. Always returning to the breath, after the secondary > > object passes away or diminishes." > > If anyone has the time to answer any question, could they please > > give the scriptural quotes that support their answer? > > > > 1. Is Formal sitting meditation unarguably and indisputably shown > > by the scriptures to be the necessary and only way to gain > > Enlightenment? And do these scriptural references unequivocably > > mean 'formal sitting meditation.' > > I think that this is a question for those advocating meditation as you > define it above to be essential. I'll be interested to read any references > which suggest this. > > > 2. Is attainment of any level of Jhana - beforehand - necessary for > > Enlightenment? Can Jhana be attained only via Formal Sitting > > Meditation - or does it happen any other way? > > The first part of this question was addressed recently by Nina with > references to suggest otherwise. There are further posts with references > under `Jhana and Vipassana' or `Samatha and vipassana (or similar) at; > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > > (let me know if you can't find them ) > > Humour me while I'm still dreaming of Mt Everest for a moment, Chris;-) > > We could describe the conditions prevailing when someone has reached the > summit in terms of clothing, gear, altitude, view, feelings, breath and so > on. However, understanding just a very little about the value of this > quest doesn't mean that we start off by wearing this particular garb, > walking around with the Summit gear, or breathing in a way which resembles > that at 29,000ft. > > We need to learn the basics. What is kusala now? What is lobha now? What > are the objects of samatha? What is metta? Is there metta now? What is > generosity? What is wise reflection on death? Is there a wish to develop > calm or jhana now? Do we see why wishing is an obstacle for the > development of samatha?......and so on. > > There are again many posts with references on these topics under > `samatha', `jhana', `satipatthana and sitting meditation'. > > For further references, I'd suggest the Visuddhimagga, Abhidhamma and > Sutta commentaries (Actually, I'd say all the Suttanta too, but the > problem is we understand the suttas differently according to our > inclinations), > > > 3. Are the words *concentration*, *contemplation* *awareness*, > > *mindfulness* and *meditation* in the Buddhist scriptures > > interchangeable? How are they similar, and how do they differ? > > I'll try a bit of Num's reverse engineering. Actually I'd love one of the > Pali experts (like Jim) or anyone else to add more detail: > > concentration- usually a transl. of samadhi, ekaggata or samatha. (Jon > recently discussed the differences in these meanings). > > contemplation - usually a transl. of sampajanna > > awareness, mindfulness - usu. a transl. of sati or satipatthana > > meditation - usu. a transl of bhavana (which can refer to samatha bhavana > or vipassana bhavana), or a transl. of jhaayatha (discussed by rob K > recently)or a close relation of this form as in the sutta `the Scholar and > the Meditator'. > .......... > > Others like Howard, Frank, Rob Ep, Rob K, Num & Kom and so on may have > more comments to add in due course.... > .......... > On a personal note, it was when I really started studying and considering > what the texts were saying (as opposed to just listening to a meditation > teacher) that I realized that the development of any kind of wholesomeness > need not be bound-- or even assisted-- in anyway by an idea of time, place > or technique. Nearly 30 years later, I have a tremendous feeling of > `gratitude' or `relief' that this is so; that it is a level pegging field > for us all at any time, regardless of lifestyle, how many hours a day we > work, how many kids we have, whether we're in the city or the forest or > whatever. There are always opportunities for one kind of kusala (wholesome > state) or other at this moment and any idea of `if only.....xyz conditions > were different' is totally useless. The key as Victor recently posted > (whether for samatha or vipassana development) is > `understanding'....Understanding is the forerunner or the dawn.... > > Just a few thoughts for now. Perhaps someone else will add more specific > references as I'm a little short of time. > > metta, > Sarah > ============================================ > > > 11793 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal sitting meditation/Enlightenment Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Just to say I really appreciate what you, Jim and Frank have > contributed around this topic so far.....I have printed the posts off > and need to consider them. Have mercy on those of us for whom much > of the Dhamma is still a mystery! I think you'll find we all raise our hands in agreement here;-) I need to think about terms and > details and look things up before I get an understanding.... Oh for > the day when I can just read a post like any other letter, and > understand it without thinking.....And I've got homework with Lucy, > Larry and Num :) Trust me.....it's the same for myself and most others I know too;-) The Dhamma is very deep and profound as we know... Sarah ======= 11794 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 3:32am Subject: Re: Paticasamuppada VII --- Dear Christine, Comments interspersed: In dhammastudygroup@y..., "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I found this topic quite difficult to come to some beginning > understanding of ..... I am studying your post alongside Chapter 2 > Object-Condition (Aramanna-Paccaya) in Ninas' "Conditions - an > outline of the twenty-four Paccaya". (This is one of the books the > kind friends in BKK gave me, and for which I feel much gratitude.) > As I hate starting any book part way through (always wonder what I've > missed), I read the Preface, Introduction and Ch. 1 Hetu-paccaya > (root condition) first. Finding a bit more understanding about > anatta 'no self', and that day to day life is conditioned and thus > beyond real control, and, for me, this is valuable. > Seems to me that Abhidhamma studies take the whole world as I know it > apart, and shows there is no-one there, and now the looking at > Conditions shows how everything is connected and works in various > relationships, and also shows there is no-one there. ++++++++++++++ Yes, that is so. And when we say everything we really mean within the world of this fathom length body; the Buddha understood wider relationships but what we insight is almost all here where the ayatanas meet. Understaninding this helps us to understand other people in a limited way too. After 'looking into my own heart' for a few years now all I see is greed, anger and delusion, in differing intensities. Seeing this I am not surprised when others exhibit these inner realities. -------------- > The paragraph in your post that had an impact on me is: > "There is so quickly reaction to the object with kusala citta > (wholesome midstate) or akusala citta (unwholesome): these are > sankhara link (formations) of the Paticcasamuppada and > this 'reaction' is conditioned by root-condition, hetu-paccaya, and > by other conditions. We may find it important what types of hetus > (roots) arise in a day, and try to have more 'good' roots but it is > all conditioned and conditioning. It is through seeing into > conditions that the wrong view of self is being erased." > > Awareness in daily life, what objects we pay attention to, and the > kind of attention (wise or unwise) we pay to these objects, seems to > be crucial. > I frequently experience and act on, quick unwholesome reactions to > daily events and have been trying to have more 'good' roots - by > attempting to remember not to react with aversion to certain > situations - and failing in the attempt. Or not remembering until too > late. So I guess that is the unwise attention.... The wise attention > seems to arrive shortly (or a long while) afterwards, when I may have > some understanding and compassion for others involved in the events. > But this would seem to be more Reflection than Attention. > >_______________ It might surprise you Christine, but the longer my Buddhist life goes the less concerened I am about whether states are kusala or akusala. My focus has been inching towards insighting any state as a conditioned dhamma, rather than trying to have more kusala. This might chaffe with some who infer that I am suggesting that kusala is not important. But I have confidence that panna (amoha, understanding) knows what is right without 'me' having to worry. It means effort is converged on seeing conditionality and that automatically brings detachment and letting go. I still make many mistakes and do bad but I'm patient with my faults and really I am finding insight does its work. It is supported by saddha, confidence in the Dhamma. kind regards robert 11795 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 4:52am Subject: Re:[dsg] Ayatanas revisited - corrections Dear All, Corrections in my post to Num: Num asked: > > If citta has pasadarupa as its aramana, can we call pasadarupa at that > > moment > > dhammayatana. The same thing if one can have others or even one's > own > > (previous) citta as arammana, can we call that citta dhammayatana ??? I was (mistakenly)thinking of sense objects instead of sense bases for pasadarupa when I said this (nonsense): > At a > moment of seeing, the citta has pasada rupa as object, visible object in > this case. Visible object is rupayatana, not dhammayatana......etc When pasada rupa, eg eye base and so on, is object of citta, then it would be dhammayatana as I understand. But I’m confused, because it is not a subtle rupa --although it’s a derived (upada) rupa-- In Num’s earlier classification I remember subtle rupas only being included. Sorry, too late for me to start thinking more or checking. Just wanted to show up my earlier mistake. > Classifying the cetasikas, subtle rupas and even nibbana in this way > reminds me how they cannot arise --or in the case of nibbana, be > experienced-- without citta. Another mistake here - cetasikas cannot arise without cittas, but we’d have to say subtle rupas cannot be *experienced* without citta.... Hopefully someone will have sorted out the ‘mess’ by the morning, otherwise, I’ll take another look or consider more tomorrow;-) Sarah ====================================================== 11796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:01am Subject: India Ch 7, no. 3 So long as enlightenment has not been attained, the idea of self has not been eradicated yet and one has to continue developing satipatthåna so that higher stages of insight can be reached and eventually enlightenment can be attained. At this moment lobha and dosa may appear, but they do not appear as merely dhammas, elements devoid of self. Acharn Sujin said, ³Kusala and akusala appear, but it is ³us² all the time. We think of kusala that has fallen away with an idea of self.² Someone asked, when lobha and dosa are realized as only nåmas, whether their different characteristics are also known. They have different characteristics but now we do not know yet as nåmas. When paññå has been developed to the degree of insight knowledge, their characteristics do not change, but they are realized as nåma elements devoid of self. Paññå realizes akusala as dhamma and kusala as dhamma, it realizes all that appears as dhamma. We discussed different sounds that can be loud or soft, and different flavours that can be sweet or sour. Someone wondered whether these different characteristics appear when there is awareness and they are realized as just rúpa. Acharn Sujin answered: ³Citta can experience everything, there is no need to use the names low or loud sound. Citta can know everything and paññå can understand everything that appears.² It is the same with the different flavours, their characteristics cannot be altered; they are, for example, sweet or sour and they appear as such. Paññå can realize them as only rúpa, and this is different from thinking of concepts, such as an apple that is sour or sugar that is sweet. There can be awareness of realities as they naturally appear, we should not imagine that there is a neutral sound or a neutral flavour. Someone had doubts whether it would ever be possible to attain insight knowledge. Acharn Sujin answered that what the Buddha taught is the truth and that what is true can be realized. If we do not know the characteristic of the reality appearing at this moment we cannot realize the four noble Truths and become enlighhtened. The understanding of the four noble Truths is not merely knowing their names: the noble truth of dukkha, of the origin of dukkha, of the cessation of dukkha and of the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. Dukkha is the truth that all conditioned phenomena are impermanent and thus unsatisfactory, that they are no refuge. The origin of dukkha is craving: so long as there is craving we are in the cycle of birth and death and there is no end to dukkha. Th cessation of dukkha is nibbåna. The way leading to the cessation of dukkha is the eightfold Path. The Truth of dukkha has to be understood, the Truth of the origin of dukkha, craving, has to be abandoned, the Truth of the cessation of dukkha, nibbåna, has to be realized, and the Truth of the way leading to the cessation of dukkha has to be developed. 11797 From: Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 8:40am Subject: Memory Dear everyone, I have a question: What is exactly memory in Abhidhamma? Thank you. Best regards, KKT 11798 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the object of bhavanga-cittas Dear Nina I've now studied your reply with more time. Thanks again. It does not reveal the mystery, but it does clarify several of the questions I had, especially with the comparison of the object to an echo - such a beautiful image ! - it's been on my mind all day My interest was because I've been studying Asanga's Chapter 1 of the Mahayanasamgraha , where he explains the Alaya consciousness - and there are many similarities to the bhavanga citta in those very early texts. But not as later elaborated and embellished by others (especially the Chinese). If I now read that chapter again, there'll be even more points in common appearing, and things that weren't clear will now be easier to follow. Of course as some questions are cleared many more arise to take their place : ) --- but I'll keep them in storage until we reach that chapter in our study. It's back to the basic concepts for me ... Best wishes Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] the object of bhavanga-cittas > op 09-03-2002 17:03 schreef Lucy op selene@c...: > Lucy wrote: > > Can someone please explain something about the object of bhavanga citta? > > > > From Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" Chapter 15 > > > > " The cuti-citta has only the function of being the dying-moment of that > > life. The cuti-citta is vipakacitta produced by the kamma which produced > > the patisandhi-citta and the bhavanga-cittas of the life which is just > > ending; it is of the same type as these cittas and it experiences the same > > object. > > When the cuti-citta has fallen away the patisandhi-citta of the following > > life arises, which citta may be of a different type, depending on the kamma > > which produces it. This patisandhi-citta experiences the same object as the > > last javana-cittas arising before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The > > patisandhi-citta, all bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of the next life > > experience that object. > > ---------------------------- > > From Visuddhi Magga XIV : > > > > "As soon as rebirth-consciousness (in the embryo at the time of conception) > > has ceased, there arises a similar subconsciousness with exactly the same > > object, following immediately upon rebirth-consciousness and being the > > result of this or that karma (volitional action done in a former birth and > > remembered there at the moment before death). And again a further similar > > state of subconsciousness arises. Now, as long as no other consciousness > > arises to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream, so long the > > life-stream, like the flow of a river, rises in the same way again and > > again, even during dreamless sleep and at other times. In this way one has > > to understand the continuous arising of those states of consciousness in > > the life-stream." > > ----------------------------- > > > > My questions: > > > > I read these paragraphs as saying that the bhavanga cittas have one and a > > same object throughout life. Does this imply that the object remains > > *unchanged* through a life-span? How can this be? Or does it actually mean > > the "same kind / species of object"? > > Or am I mis-reading the whole thing??? > > Dear Lucy, the object of the rebirth-consciousness is the same as the object > experienced by the last javana cittas before dying. The object of the last > javana cittas in life can be a symbol of the kamma one performed or a sign > of the place of one's next birth, it can be an object experienced through > one of the six doorways. Then, kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness > after the cuti-citta has fallen away, the rebirth-consciousness experiences > the same object, it is like an echo or the impression of a seal. This object > is not experienced through any of the six doorways, it is quite different > from the objects such as visible object or sound we experience all the time. > The bhavanga-citta succeeding the rebirth-consciousness experiences again > the same object. (See Visuddhimagga XVII, 165-166). Thus, it is quite > different from an object that impinges on one of the six doorways and then > falls away. If we think of an echo it may help to understand this. > > > Lucy: Also wondering about this: ".... as long as no other consciousness > arises > > to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream" (and similar descriptions > > of the succession of citta). As we understand "subconscious", it is > > something continuously running below the conscious. But the Abdhidhamma > > descriptions of the process seems to indicate that the "subconscious" > > (bhavanga citta) is interrupted every time another consciousness arises. > > When the interruption by other consciousness stops and bhavanga citta > > arises again, does it do so exactly as it was before being interrupted??? > > N: Yes, because kamma keeps on producing the same type of bhavangacitta > throughout life. The bhavanga-citta arises and then falls away, and it is > succeeded by the next citta, and, if the stream of bhavanga-cittas is not > interrupted by cittas arising in a process that experience an object through > one of the six doors, the next citta is also a bhavanga-citta of the same > type. It is not the same citta but similar, it is accompanied by the same > types of cetasikas. The term sub-consciousness is not correct, not precise, > it suggests another consciousness existing at the same time, and there can > only be one citta at a time experiencing one object. > > > Lucy: What are the cetasikas of the bhavanga citta? > > N: It depends on the kamma that produces the rebirth-consciousness and thus > also the bhavangacitta. There are nineteen types, and these are accompanied > by different cetasikas. We are born in the human plane, and thus, the > bhavanga-citta is kusala vipaka: it can be without beautiful roots (in the > case of those handicapped from the first moment of life), or one of the > eight types of maha-vipakacittas, vipakacittas accompanied by beautiful > roots: with wisdom or without it, with pleasant feeling or with indifferent > feeling, etc. (See Abh in Daily Life, Ch 11). > > > > I like to quote from a post I wrote before on Acharn Sujin's Survey of > Paramattha dhammas where she > explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas > experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that when one > is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does not > experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one experiences > all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects give rise > to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the function of > keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast asleep and > also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an > uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta experiences the > same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an echo of > the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the > previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no > latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the citta. > It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements arise. > I quote: > < The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object > through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody > who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like or > dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no lovingkindness nor > compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he > does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should > be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object through > one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many different > defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the > arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, and the > arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant.> > End quote. I can imagine that not everything is clear, you chose a difficult > subject. Seeing and hearing are cittas that we can understand more easily. > Best wishes from Nina. > > > 11799 From: Lucy Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sujin Boriharnwannaket (beginners' texts) Dear Num I found the on-line version of the AMS very difficult to follow. The BPS edition is much easier, it includes very clear explanations as Larry said. It's great you're interested too ! Best wishes Lucy