13600 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 1:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] to Howard

 
  Hi, Nina -

> > Whoops! It would be good were I to maintain sufficient mindfulness to
> > remember who I am conversing with! ;-)) Sorry, Nina.
> > 
> Nina:  :-)  :-)
> But Sarah could have said it.
> I like the loka sutta you quoted to Jon and I shall write more about it
> later, I looked up the commentary to this sutta. I am also thinking about
> the Katavatthu text, this is for later.
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I *eagerly* await that!
-----------------------------------------------

> Best wishes from Nina. 
> 
> 
=======================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13601 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 2:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Hi, Victor -

In a message dated 5/31/02 4:06:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Victor writes:


> 
> I have no doubt 
> > that the Buddha truly taught the way to freedom and the end of 
> suffering, and 
> > that his teaching of no-self-to-be-found-anywhere is an entirely 
> *true* 
> > teaching.
> > =============================
> > With metta,
> > Howard
> 
> 
> Howard,
> 
> Where are you, Howard?  Can you find yourself?
> 
> Regards,
> Victor
> 
> 
============================
       It seems to me that either you cannot or will not distinguish between 
conventional speech and precise speech. But I do make that distinction. So we 
are talking at cross purposes and not communicating.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13602 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 8:22am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', Reply to Rob E.(Booklet)

 
  --- Sukinder  wrote:

> > Sukin:
> > Silabbataparamasa is "wrong practise", meaning anything we do with the
> view
> > that doing such things will lead to understanding.
> 
> R:
> Sutta study for instance?  Or is this exempt from being 'wrong practice'?
> 
> S:
> the tipitaka is full of descriptions about all the different realities, the
> right path
> and the wrong path. Don't you think it advisable to read about all these
> realities
> which inevitably arises through the course of our lives and find out what
> will lead to
> what, before deciding that a particular activity is condusive to
> understanding?

yes, but my point is that we do so with the hope that we will gain greater
understanding, so we are certainly reading with intention to learn.  you say that
to do any activity thinking it will improve our understanding is wrong.  I am it
is not wrong, and that of course we have no choice but to do those activities
which we think will improve our understanding, whether it be 'sutta study' or
'meditation'.  You assume that sutta study is good, so you don't see the hope that
this will improve understanding as being wrong, but it is no different than
purposely meditating with the hope of increasing vipassana, etc.

> R:
> control and intention are not the same thing.  intentions create results,
> whether
> immediately or later, if they are actual intentions.  since every cause has
> an
> effect, this shuld be true, shoudn't it?  one confuses 'control' with
> 'results'.
> certainly intentions and practices yield *results* that are in keeping with
> those
> intentions or practices.  this is in keeping with the law of cause and
> effect, the
> law of kamma.
> 
> S:
> So if our intentions our not pure, the result will not be so.
> And where best to know what our real inclinations are toward than in normal
> every day circumstance? 

that may be true.   I certainly like the idea of testing one's understanding
against everyday life circumstances.  but that doesn't mean meditation is neither
useful nor necessary as well.

  For eg., a person can be driven to tears hearing
> some
> dhamma, at that moment he may wish to become a monk, would it be advisable
> for him to do so?

maybe so.  it depends.  

  Avija in
> fact
> is what gets us 'blown by the wind of circumstance', panna 'rides with the
> wind'
> of reality and goes against the tide of convention.
> Understanding any situation is the goal. In the conventional world, we do
> and
> are bound by duty to do things with expectation of results, but what the
> outcome
> will be there is no being confused or surprised or carried away if there is
> understanding that it was not "us" who brought about that result, just a
> complex set of conditions.

well, for understanding I think there is value in seeing that there is no 'us'
making things happen, but I think it is possible to wrongly draw the conclusion
then that we shouldn't attempt to do anything.  there is a difference between
understanding anatta and giving up responsibility.    

> R:
> This means the opposite of what you have said here:  the cittas do not
> merely
> arise and fall, they develop factors and accumulate them, and pass them
> down.
> So you *can*develop and build intentions.........

> 
> S:
> The law of cause and effect is precise but there being different intensities
> and
> innumerable causes it is impossible to isolate one condition and base the
> result on that.

well, what I see happening in life is that people take certain directions and they
certainly wind up in a situation related to the circumstances they set up for
themselves.  It's not toally predictable, but if you are sailing and aiming for
shore, you will have to tack against the wind and go various ways, but if you are
skillful you wind up on the shore where you aimed.  There is not 'control' but
there is a gradual relationship between intention and result.  There is an old
Chinese saying, as I understand:  "If you don't change your direction, you will
probably wind up where you were headed."

> R:
> Well we can certainly learn and develop the right attitude towards
> discernment and
> learn to recognize those attitudes and approaches that are defeating of our
> purpose.  This is a matter of intelligence, practice and assessment, not
> coincidence.
> 
> S:
> Agreed that this does happen, but can we be sure that it will? 

why do we need certainty, if we are generally heading in the right direction?

  We do know on
> the
> other hand, that kusala or akusala conditions more of the same in terms of
> accumulated tendencies, why not then we assess, based on the teachings to
> see
> what is right and what is not from the very beginning, which is now?
> The avija associated with the activity (a concept) ie., sitting cross
> legged, closing
> one's eyes etc., will condition more of the same on and on. Yes the act of
> studying
> sutta, whether sitting or standing or walking or lying down can also be
> accumulated
> the same way, therefore it is very important to have an excellent teacher
> like
> K. Sujin and a group like DSG :-) to remind us about detachment and to show
> the
> significance of going beyond mere theory to actual application in daily
> life. 

well, I think an excellent meditation teacher can do the same thing.  I still
think you are prejudiced against meditation without a really good reason.  I
understand the point that it is a planned activity to get a certain result, but
good meditation is not controlled to force a result.  It is an activity of inquiry
into the arising of consciousness and the working of mind.

  There is a
> path and
> there is a goal, but that goal is the understanding of the present moment.
> Perhaps
> with greater and greater precision, but is there any need to worry whether
> the
> precision is increasing or not? We still have to come back to the moment
> don't we?

yes, but hopefully with greater skill and discernment. It isn't good enough just
to be mindful, but to have insight and develop wisdom.  

> On the other hand, if one measures ones progress in terms of tendency for
> kusala,
> I feel that even if we are studying dhamma, if the aim is development of
> panna, it is
> possible that strong akusala arises from time to time which may have not
> been so
> before we studied dhamma. But this should not be evidence that there is no
> progress.
> The aim is panna and so instead of trying to control our behavior as before,
> there
> may be conditions for the otherwises hidden kilesas, manifest themselves in
> terms
> of akusala actions.
> But I do agree that in the long run it must be less, otherwise we are doing
> something
> wrong.

Well, that's kind of my point of view, which is to employ some common sense, even
though the common sense view of whether we are developing kusala or akusala may be
wrong in a given moment, or even in a given period of time.   Maybe negative kamma
is coming out and it's a really horrific experience and so we think 'oh my God I
am developing so much akusala I must be on the wrong track' when in reality
something has opened up and akusala is getting worked out and kicked out of the
system.  Sometimes we experience things when they are 'on the way out', rather
than 'on the way in'.  But over time, the general feeling of whether things are
more akusala, or more kusala, whether we are getting 'better' or 'worse', whether
life seems 'lighter' or more 'burdened',  I think gives a pretty accurate idea of
whether we're on the right track or not.

There are exceptions.  I do think it is possible to do something like yoga with
devotion, and yoga will just naturally make you feel physically better over time.
This can mask what is really going on in a sense.  A yogi can develop pride in the
body, pride at his physical prowess, and grow attached to the physical well-being
that comes from being flexible and strong.  This doesn't mean someone shouldn't do
yoga, but it does mean that some pleasant feelings and accomplishments can also
create hindrances to non-attachment and realization of anatta and anicca.  But one
has to be conscious of all of these things, and not just make snap judgments about
practices automatically being akusala either.

> > Sukin:
> > Good, but is it worth clinging to?:-)
> 
> R:
> You added that.
> 
> S:
> Sorry!
> 
> R:
> Anyone, from scientist to artist, would check
> their results.  you assume there is clinging there.
> 
> S:
> Yes, I think so, maybe subtle but surely there must be.

I still don't see why there has to be any more attachment with a meditation or
yoga practice than there is with a sutta or discernment practice.  They all have
intention, so one has to do them for their purpose and keep an eye on the
attachment, pride, expectation, etc., that will be sure to be there.  If one
discerns these things as they arise, then they will be seen to be just as empty in
the moment as any other object of discernment.

> > can we really know for sure that what the Buddha taught is all true and
> > only then will we really be independent and no more need outside
>   confirmation.
> 
> R:
> but we have to develop that capacity and we have to work in a way that will
> get us
> there.  it won't happen by accident.
> 
> S:
> Again, nothing is accidental, attempting to keep track or not will not
> change what
> the result will be from studying and applying the teachings. 

It may tell us whether we are on the right track or not.  Isn't that part of
discernment?  How can we be blissfully ignorant and hope that this will somehow
aid our practice?

  Measuring
> progress
> will condition an attempt to do something in relation to the result. *What
> will
> be that something to do?!*

I don't have the feeling about *doing* things that you do.  I think it's okay to
have the intention to do something and get a certain result.  I still think that
making believe one doesn't have an intention has more danger that accepting the
intention that is there and working with it to release expectation and sincerely
go after the result proscribed by Buddha.  We all want to develop kusala, panna,
vipassana, and reach Nibbana.  The question is how do we follow this path, and
what do we do with these intentions.  They're not going to go away.

> > Sukin:
> > Intention is in every citta, it arises and falls with it and it takes on
> the
> > quality of the citta, being with or without sati and panna.
> 
> R:
> yes, but it also accumulates and is passed on.
> 
> S:
> If it is akusala, then akusala accumulates. Besides lobha can come in
> anytime, even after kusala moment.

Yes, but those things that are most promoted and repeated will accumulate more. 
If one is discerning realities all the time, there will be more discernment
accumulating and passed down.  The cittas arising will be more discerning ones and
there will be more discerning cittas arising.  If I am wrong about this, someone
with more experience can correct me.

> R:
> I think it's a mistake to draw assumptions in that way.  Nisargardatta saw
> the
> emptiness of all phenomena and saw no reason to change his behavior.  He
> just kept
> doing what he had always done.  i have heard many arguments saying that one
> should
> not worry about 'fixing' this reality, but instead discern its true nature,
> and
> that is what he emphasized.
> 
> S:
> I made the comment with some reluctance, he is in any case a much superior
> person to myself. But smoking cannot be any thing but a manifestation of
> kilesa.
> You are supposed to keep the five precepts perfectly once you become a
> sotapanna.

Well, I understand your sense of that.  I am not as versed in the characteristics
of the sotapanna, and I tend not to judge people's attainment on all of the little
things they do.  I'd like to meet a sotapanna and observe their behavior!

> S:
> If the teachings were something 'thought out', then I agree that you can
> review and
> improve on it. But the wisdom of the Buddha was not a result of "thinking
> about"
> reality. The insight he gained had no relation to the culture and history of
> his time.
> All the Buddhas past and future will necessarily have the same
> understanding.
> Anyone else is just a factor in the opposite direction, ie., polluting the
> original
> insight.

Well, if that were absolutely true, there would be no need for the spiritual
friend to explain the dhamma, because this would be watering down the suttas, and
it would furthermore be polluting them.  But the commentaries are there none the
less, and valued by practitioners.  And the modern commentaries explain the
earlier commentaries, because despite the wisdom of the Buddha, without the
commentaries and sub-commentaries we can neither understand nor agree on the
meaning of the Buddha's words.  So I would say that each generation reinterprets
the teachings for their generation, whether anyone likes this or doesn't like it. 
Nina's books makes sense of Abhidhamma for this world, this time and place.  I'm
sure in another age, she would have written another way.  We need the people who
are here now, not just the Buddha, as perfect as his understanding was.

> S:
> Allow me to say something here. We have accumulated avijja of realities
> through
> all doorways. In order to understand seeing consciousness, it must arise
> first.
> If we don't know realities through all doorways we will continue to have
> doubts
> about it. It is not a matter of closing eyes and noting 'thinking',
> 'hearing' and
> expect one day to develop understanding of eye-consciousness and visible
> objects. There must be no picking and choosing. This is why understanding
> must be natural, in daily life. If avijja arises much in relation to seeing
> for
> instance, then ignoring it would make it harder to understand.
> The idea of meditation itself is a problem for me, if someone suggest what
> is called "post meditation" ie., the idea of carrying mindfulness over to
> daily
> activities. This seems absurd to me.

Well, you don't see mindfulness as a cumulative acquirement that is carried over
from practice to living.   Yet, the citta theory acknowledges that cittas carry
the accumulations from previous cittas and there is a developmental movement in
the flow of cittas, based on what they experience and pick up.  These things are
not completely lost in the moment, even though the citta falls away and another
rises.  In practical experience we do experience that we accumulate tendencies and
understandings and become more skillful.  If we didn't accumulate something, then
we would never learn to walk.  Each step would be starting from scratch with no
prior learning from the step before, which is of course absurd.  We do learn, and
we can learn mindfulness and become more mindful of arising realities through
practice just as we learn to walk through practice.  You can say that the best
walking comes from natural walking, not from purposely practicing.  The child
tries to get something and in the effort has to walk.  But children also have
natural 'practice periods' where they purposely try to walk over and over again,
because they are tired of not being able to walk.  They want to learn.  Why not
with mindfulness as well?  It doesn't seem absurd to me at all to do this and to
carry it over.

> S:
> Study and know that it is only theory.
> Study more theory and know that it is different from direct experience.
> When there is direct experience, know what is direct experience, the
> theory will have less appeal. But direct experience will happen only
> when the conditions are right.
> So you study more to understand 'Theoretically'. It is not to study theory
> in order to have direct experience, it is just to understand theory and
> that it is not the experience itself.

And when you meditate, it is not to confuse this with being enlightened, or
confuse this with everyday living, it is to meditate so you can develop your
understanding of the moments when you are meditating, and then that carries over
in a certain way.  If you weren't interested in the 'theory' carrying over in some
way, you wouldn't do it.  It is only because the theory has indirect bearing on
accumulation of insight and understanding of realities that one does it at all. 
So i don't think it's completely honest to say that it is 'for theoretical
understanding only'.

> Whew! Never worked so hard all my life. Hope I have at least accumulated
> some parami or the other ;-).

Heh heh, it's quite an exercise, I agree!  And we did the whole thing in the hope
of getting something out of it!  Oh well!!  

I tried to cut out some of the former conversation as much as possible.  Hope this
is a little shorter!!!

Pleasure to talk to you.

Best,
Robert Ep.



 
13603 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 10:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Merit Making

 
  Christine

 --- christine_forsyth  wrote: > Dear All,
> 
> Often one hears negative remarks about those who do good deeds 
> believing these will have some positive effect on what rebirth they 
> obtain. Some refer to this as superstition, or as the laziness of 
> those who don't want to put a strong effort into leaving samsara 
> forever, and are content with aiming for a life in a better place or 
> form.  Doing good for others when the main idea is to benefit oneself 
> does seem a little hypocritical - would this be regarded as a 'good' 
> intention?  I am not familiar with merit making and would like to 
> hear more about it, as well as  knowing if there are any simple, 
> straightforward articles or suttas on merit?
> 
> metta,
> Christine

I think you will find 'merit' but not 'merit making' in the texts.  As you
suggest, that expression is almost a contradiction in terms.  However, we
should not be too cynical about the use of this term.  As a cultural
expression, it can be spoken with varying degrees of intention or
understanding.

We know from our own experinece that any wholesomeness performed is sure
to be bound up with unwholesomeness of different kinds (conceit among
them).  To my way of thinking, it is more important to have a better
understanding of one's own citta than to concern ourselves with the
quality of others' kusala.

My 2 cents worth!

Jon

 
13604 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 10:56am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Merit Making

 
  Dear Christine,

Check this out on K. Amara's site:

http://www.dhammastudy.com/merits.html


> -----Original Message-----
> From: christine_forsyth 
> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:49 AM
> Subject: [dsg] Merit Making
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> Often one hears negative remarks about those who do good deeds
> believing these will have some positive effect on what rebirth they
> obtain.

I assume that you are mentioning the case where when somebody does something
good, they make a wish for the result of that deed.  There are two possible
issues that I see (and I think you are asking) here:
1) Whether or not this is a good deed?
2) Can the wish come true?

I think the answer to 1) is that there are both kusala and akusala in this
process (like usual!).  When one lets go of the thing that one gives, that
moment is certainly kusala, since detachment to the object must be present
in order for one to let go of that object.  However, when one makes the wish
for the result (relating to the 5 khandhas), that moment is necessarily
akusala, as one is attached to the result at the moment.  If one doesn't
make a wish, but gives purely for the benefit of others, then this
motivation gives more opportunity for kusala to arise prior to giving,
during giving, after giving, where as in the former case, perhaps only
during giving that the states are kusala.

The answer in 2 is uncertain at best (perhaps because this can be known only
to a samma-sambuddha).  However, there are stories in the tipitaka about
people who make wishes, or who are inclined toward certain results for their
ksuala, that they get the wishes.  However, the result must be
appropropriate for the cause.  It is impossible to have small kusala, make
big wishes, and get big results.  The stories that I remember are two:

1) The king Pimpisara (the king of magadha, a Sotapanna, whose son Ajatasatu
killed him) was reborn in the lowest heavenly plane.  The question is posed
in the commentaries why the rebirth is so small (lower plane of existence,
instead of higher heavenly planes) despite his being a generous supporter of
the Buddha, the dhamma, and the sangha.  The answer given was that because
the king was a deva in the plane of existence in so many lives, that he is
inclined to being reborn into that plane of existence.  In this case, he was
reborn (as wished) as a deva who is very privileged in that plane of
existence.

2) There was a story about a female deva, who died from the plane of heaven
because she forgot to eat.  Upon rebirth as a human, she remembered her
previous life, and made a strong resolution to rejoin her husband in the
heavenly plane (who has 500 wives!!!).  In that life, she always gives to
the Sangha.  As a result of the deeds (for about 80-100 years) and the
wishes, she rejoined her husband upon death.  The husband hardly missed her
since only about 1 afternoon has passed in that plane of existence when she
went amiss.

> Some refer to this as superstition, or as the laziness of
> those who don't want to put a strong effort into leaving samsara
> forever, and are content with aiming for a life in a better place or
> form.

We have to remember that attachments towards the 5 sensualities are
extremely hard to be permanently eradicated.  Only an anagami (and arahat)
has eliminated the enjoyment to the 5 sensualities.  The buddha mentioned
many Ariyan disciples (sotapanna) who would certainly go through 7 more
lives because of their attachments towards the 5 sensualities.  This
includes Visakha-vigara-mother, maha-upasika who, along with Anathapintaka,
is foremost among the lay disciples of the buddhas who support the Buddha
and the Sangha throughout their lives.

kom

 
13605 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 11:29am
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/31/02 7:36:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:
> No argument from me about your reading of the Loka Sutta, or its
> importance.
> 
> However, on my reading of the teachings both the following are to be
> understood from the texts:
> (a) Only the dhamma that is being presently experienced can be known
> (b) Dhammas exist independently of experience
> 
> You are I think correct to say that someone who asserts the latter is
> hypothesizing, since it is implicit in (a) that we cannot prove (b). 
But
> equally, to assert the opposite would also be to hypothesize, I suppose.
> 
> Jon
==================================
Howard:
       Yes. Strictly speaking you are correct. The thing is, when
pragmatism is joined to phenomenalism, as it often is, what is not only
not known but is in principle unknowable is treated as (tantamount to)
nonexistent. It is both pragmatically and noetically nonexistent. 

Jon:
You say below that you find such categorisation helpful, but it does seem
to rather cloud the issue, to my simple-minded way of thinking!  BTW, is
‘treated as non-existent’ the same as ‘non-existent’ for the purpose of
proposition (b) above?

Howard:
Often, the Buddha, instead of speaking in objective terms, saying that
some alleged something-or-other didn't exist, he would say things along
the lines of "It isn't found", "There is no known beginning", "It isn't
evident/seen" etc. His speaking was largely in an experiential and
pragmatic vein.

Jon:
Again, I agree with your analysis of the approach taken in many of the
suttas.  But I understood your original question to be whether the
teachings and particularly the Abhidhamma posit or assert the existence of
dhammas independent of experience.  I am just saying that I think it
clearly does.  The answer to your question is not to be found in the sutta
passages you are referring to, I believe, which should be read in their
context.

=============================
Howard:
       I'd like to add a brief addendum, Jon. You raised the point before,
and I see it as valid, that attempting to characterize the Buddha's
teaching as phenomenalist and pragmatic does not add anything to that
teaching. I *do* see the Dhamma (as a philosophical view) as included in
this genus of phenomenalism/pragmatism, and my seeing it that way
clarifies matters for me. However, were I to be shown that this is not so,
then it would be phenomenalism/pragmatism that I would give up (in a
second) rather than the Dhamma. The Dhamma has played a role in my life
that has been, for lack of a better, less Christian sounding, term,
salvational. I have complete confidence in the Dhamma, the Buddha, and the
Ariyasangha. I have no doubt that the Buddha truly taught the way to
freedom and the end of suffering, and that his teaching of
no-self-to-be-found-anywhere is an entirely *true* teaching.
=============================

Jon:
Let me assure you, Howard, that I have absolutely no doubt about the
significance of the dhamma in your life.  I am just wondering how you find
it helpful to relate the teachings to some other scheme of categorisation,
since I would see that to be a positive distraction to arriving at a
better understanding of the teachings.  But I say this only by way of
explaining why I always try to steer the discussion away from such areas
(in case you hadn't noticed!)  ;-))

Jon


 
13606 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 11:36am
Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas only?

 
  Kelvin

 --- kelvin liew peng chuan  wrote: > 
> Dear friends in Dhamma,
> 
> may all of you be well, happy & peaceful (n happy belated Wesak!) i
> learnt a 
> lot from the various issues in here.
> 
> a few days ago, i ahd a chance to have a conversation with a monk & 
> according to him, all Buddhist should only rely on the Suttas & Vinaya.
> 
> According to him, Abhidhamma as well as Visudhimagga were later works
> and 
> there were many things not in accordance to the Suttas in both of these 
> later works.
>
> is it true?

There's only one way to find out, and that's to study both carefully and
discuss areas of uncertaintly.  I don't think it's safe to rely on anyone
else's ideas either way (i.e. true or untrue).  

No easy answers, I'm afraid!

Jon


 
13607 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 8:52am
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 5/31/02 11:31:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Jon:
> Let me assure you, Howard, that I have absolutely no doubt about the
> significance of the dhamma in your life.  I am just wondering how you find
> it helpful to relate the teachings to some other scheme of categorisation,
> since I would see that to be a positive distraction to arriving at a
> better understanding of the teachings.  But I say this only by way of
> explaining why I always try to steer the discussion away from such areas
> (in case you hadn't noticed!)  ;-))
> 
> 
==========================
       Well, it's hard for me to say exactly how I find the pragmatist - 
phenomenalist view helpful in understanding the Dhamma, but I will try. It 
provides me with a conceptual perspective for seeing the Dhamma in an 
integrated fashion, and it makes sense out of various parts of the teaching 
that I would find more difficult to grasp without it. It seems to fit well, 
and to make clear much that would not be clear to me. As an example, rebirth 
becomes change in realm of experience, rather like "changing channels", as 
opposed to somehow moving to a different externally existing physical place 
or realm. There is no problem of explaining how, without a transmigrating 
"soul", rebirth occurs - there is no need to come up with some external 
physical mechanism for one's kamma to induce a physical rebirth, because the 
physical is just a mode of experience, and rebirth is just a switching to a 
new channel of experience, the switch occurring, of course, only when the 
conditions for it are in place. Mentality and materiality hang together, 
being merely differing modes of experience. A constant stream of 
citta-cetasika-arramana events, the flow of experience: that is the world. 
That is "The All".
       Actually, the idea of the Buddha's teachings being pragmatist - 
phenomenalist is not peculiar to me. It is a commonly expressed notion. (See 
David Kalupahana, for example.) Theravadin Abhidhamma seems to have a very 
strong phenomenalist perspective, and the perspective of the yogacara school 
of mahayana as originated by Vasubandhu (rather than the Lankavatara Sutra 
type of substantialist idealism) is quite explicitly phenomenalist. 
       But, of course, to say that the Buddha's teaching is pragmatist - 
phenomenalist, whether true or not, falls ridiculously short of 
*characterizing* the Dhamma. If validly applicable to the Dhamma, it is still 
just a tiny drop in the bucket of what can be validly said about the 
Buddhadhamma. Many philosophies fall into the general pragmatist - 
phenomenalist category. But there is only one Buddhadhamma, unique in all the 
world, encompassing all that is, and providing, as I see it, the ONLY way to 
freedom from illusion and suffering.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13608 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 2:16pm
Subject: Pointing us to treasure

 
  Dear All,

Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was 
mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously 
regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.  
The friend said  that if another person points out our (true) 
faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see 
it as someone pointing us to treasure.  
 As well, the friend quoted a passage from Majjhima Nikaya 140, Dhatu-
vibhabga Sutta, "An Analysis of the Properties"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html
"Yes, monk, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, 
so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to assume that it was proper to 
address me as 'friend.' But because you see your transgression as 
such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your 
confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & discipline of 
the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends 
in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future." 
 
Mostly, in ordinary everyday life, criticising others or being 
criticised is seen as impolite.  So, I guess this is a hard thing for 
me - seeing criticism as something not just to consider, but as 
something to be glad of, as if I had been told the whereabouts of 
treasure.  The 'normal' reaction I usually have, and which I see in 
many others, is to become defensive, experience unwholesome emotions, 
and, perhaps, suspect the motives of the other.  Usually, I initially 
see most criticism as incorrect ('who me? Couldn't be!') before after 
some time passes, being able to assess it fairly.  Given this 
propensity, to see oneself as right and good, how do we know 
our 'true' faults?  The phrase "regardless of this other person's 
intentions" is difficult.  The other person could really be making 
untrue statements out of misunderstanding or maliciousness...hard  to 
control an emotional reaction if  it is believed the other knows the 
statements are untrue.
 
I know this could be viewed as a trivial thing, and yet, for some of 
us, emotions are the strings that make the puppet dance.......

metta,
Christine

 
13609 From: wangchuk37   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 3:08pm
Subject: Buddhist bibliography June update

 
  the June update to the Buddhist bibliography is now online at :
http://www.cyberdistributeur.com/buddbib.html
enjoy your reading !

 
13610 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 3:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  HOward

 --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a message dated 5/29/02 6:30:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jon writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Jon:
> > The problem I have here, Howard, is that I'm not sure if you're
> wanting to
> > discuss the abhidhammic position or the phenomenalist position!! 
> > 
> > By way of illustrating what I mean, I'd like to give another 2
> > propositions to compare, again taken or adapted from an earlier post--
> > 
> > (a)  The Buddhist perspective, and most explicitly so in Abhidhamma,
> > doesn't countenance objects existing independently of experience.
> > (b)  The Buddhist perspective, and most explicitly so in Abhidhamma,
> is a
> > phenomenalist one which doesn't countenance objects existing
> independently
> > of experience.
> > 
> > I think you can appreciate the difference in the thrust of these 2
> > positions.  For a start, the answer to (b) is going to depend on a
> agreed
> > definition for, and similar depth of understanding of, the concept of
> > phenomenalism.  And then, when you've figured it out as best you can,
> has
> > one really advanced one's understanding of the abhidhammic
> perspective?
> > 
> > Not that I would wish to discourage comparative discussion, but simply
> to
> > point out its limitations.  I thought there might be a point here
> worth
> > bringing up for discussion.
> > 
> > Jon
> > 
> ==============================
>        I'm perfectly happy with (a), Jon. The fact that I see the
> position in 
> (a) as a phenomnalist one is unimportant. It is what it is, an I am very
> 
> happy with it! :-)
> 
> With metta,
> Howard

Talking about (a) then, I see that as not being a correct statement (as I
think I've indicated in another post or posts).  I'd be interested to know
what part of the Abhidhamma you have in mind here.  Thanks.

Jon


 
13611 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 3:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/1/02 3:33:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Talking about (a) then, I see that as not being a correct statement (as I
> think I've indicated in another post or posts).  I'd be interested to know
> what part of the Abhidhamma you have in mind here.  Thanks.
> 
=================================
        Statement (a) is: The Buddhist perspective, and most explicitly so in 
Abhidhamma, doesn't countenance objects existing independently of experience.
       As you know, my ignorance of Abhidhamma runs deep ;-)), and, thus, I'm 
not in any position to give useful detail. The answer is merely that the 
overwhelming thrust of Abhidhamma as I have so far encountered it is that of 
a detailed description of *experience*. It appears to be more of a 
phenomenology than an ontology. Nyanaponika Thera, for example, in his 
ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES, wrote: "The Abhidhamma system, however, is not concerned 
with an artificial abstract world of  'objects in themselves'. In so far as 
it deals with external facts at all, the respective concepts refer to the 
relation of those 'external facts' to the bondage or liberation of the human 
mind; or they are terms auxiliary to the tasks of the understanding and 
mental training connected with the work of liberation."  That certainly seems 
to express a phenomenological and pragmatist/utilitarian perspective.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         




 
13612 From: Howard 
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 5:38pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Hi again, Jon -

       Here is another example of seeing Abhidhamma as a phenomenological 
enterprise. The following is from the introduction (by U Rewata Dhamma and 
Bhikkhu Bodhi) to a Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma:
***************
The Abhidhamma's attempt to comprehend the nature of reality, contrary to 
that of classical science in the West, does not proceed from the standpoint 
of a neutral observer looking outwards towards the external world. The 
primary concern of the Abhidhamma is to understand the nature of experience, 
and thus the reality on which it focuses is conscious reality, the world as 
given in experience, comprising both knowledge and the known in the widest 
sense. For this reason the philosophical enterprise of the Abhidhamma shades 
off into a phenomenological psychology.
*************************

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         




 
13613 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sat Jun 1, 2002 10:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Merit Making

 
  op 31-05-2002 10:49 schreef christine_forsyth op :

Dear Christine, 
merit making: pu~n~na is the Pali for merit, it actually means good,
meritorious kamma. There are ten meritorious deeds, and these can be
classified as threefold: as dana, sila and bhavana mental development. The
kusala citta which motivates good deeds can be accompanied by pa~n~naa or
unaccompanied by it. Now your questions:
> 
>Ch: Often one hears negative remarks about those who do good deeds
> believing these will have some positive effect on what rebirth they
> obtain. Some refer to this as superstition, or as the laziness of
> those who don't want to put a strong effort into leaving samsara
> forever, and are content with aiming for a life in a better place or
> form.  Doing good for others when the main idea is to benefit oneself
> does seem a little hypocritical - would this be regarded as a 'good'
> intention? 
N: The Buddha explained that a good deed brings a desirable result, in the
form of a happy rebirth or the experience of pleasant sense objects in the
course of life. When you for instance give a gift, you may do this with
right understanding of cause and effect, but there may also be moments of
lobha, of attachment to a happy rebirth. Cittas arise and pass away so fast,
and shortly after kusala cittas there may be akusala cittas. They have
conditions, we have not eradicated akusala. One of the conditions, natural
strong dependence condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya), teaches that akusala
citta can condition kusala citta: you are attached to a happy rebirth or
afraid of an unhappy rebirth and thus you perform kusala.
Generosity can also be a perfection, a supporting condition which together
with the other perfections eventually will lead to enlightenment. In that
case the aim is the eradication of selfishness, clinging to self and the
other defilements. You do not have to think: now my aim is to eradicate
defilements.  But when you see the value of satipatthana, the development of
right understanding of nama and rupa in order to eradicate the clinging to
self, there are conditions for the perfections to develop. As Kh Sujin often
stresses in her book about the perfections: you do not expect any result for
yourself. When you cling to a result, you may do deeds of generosity, but
this is not a perfection. I shall now quote from her book:

Therefore, it is necessary to give away things for the benefit and happiness
of others as much as one is able to, in order to eliminate defilements,
including attachment to possessions as well as clinging to nåma dhammas and
rúpa dhammas one takes for beings, people and self. Thus, in our daily life
we should not neglect the development of the perfection of generosity. We
should know whether our generosity is a perfection or not. No matter how
much we give away, generosity is not a perfection if we do not see the need
to eradicate defilements. People who have understanding of the Dhamma and
practise generosity should consider whether their generosity is a
perfection. If someone gives away things without expecting a reward, not
even rebirth in a heavenly plane, then his generosity can be a perfection.
However, if someone wants to receive a reward, when he wishes for rebirth as
a millionaire, or for rebirth in different degrees of heavenly planes, or if
he wants to receive gain, honour and praise, then his life is still bound up
with all kinds of expectations, and his goal is not the eradication of
defilements. If we reflect about this we can know whether our giving at a
specific moment is a perfection or not.
The perfection of generosity is a condition to cross over to the other
shore, namely, the eradication of defilements, different from the world of
defilements. It is an extremely long way to reach the other shore, the
eradication of defilements; it is not easy to reach it. We should really
understand what the eradication of defilements means. Therefore, we should
know whether at the moment of giving we are hoping for a reward or not.
Giving that eliminates lobha, attachment, is giving with the aim to
eradicate defilements, and that means that we should not expect any kind of
reward. 
   
Ch:I am not familiar with merit making and would like to
> hear more about it, as well as  knowing if there are any simple,
> straightforward articles or suttas on merit?
N: Kh Sujin's book on meritorious deeds is on line, on different websites. 




 
13614 From: manji   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 0:44am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', Reply to Rob E.(Booklet)

 
  With a quote from Lonaphala Sutta:

"Monks, for anyone who says, 'In whatever way a person makes kamma, that is
how it is experienced,' there is no living of the holy life, there is no
opportunity for the right ending of stress. But for anyone who says, 'When a
person makes kamma to be felt in such & such a way, that is how its result
is experienced,' there is the living of the holy life, there is the
opportunity for the right ending of stress."

Marking conditions clearer recollection, as the function of sanna is
concerned. Chanda is differentiated from lobha. I believe that there is
chanda with the recollection of liberation as object instead of lobha with
the recollection of liberation as object.

The "holy life" is mere recollection, this "I" is mere recollection...
merely recollections, mental fabrications, bubbles on the stream. There is
kamma, there is dukkha, there is holy life, there is right ending of stress,
and there is the "upadanakkhanda". With wisdom, this upadanakkhanda is not
recollected as "I", thus it is not identified with. The trouble it seems are
those many moments in which for example, let's say that there is a
recollection "I am this". This mere recollection is not self, this "I am
this" is sanna, just as "I am not this" is sanna. Thus there is living the
holy life... renunciation again... sati :)

Saying that there is no control, I think can be misleading, because there
_is_ kamma and vipaka. It isn't that there is no control, it is just simply
that all the dhammas all the kamma, it is not self. It is to be "seen",
"perceived", and recollected as not-self. Seeing sanna as not self is a most
potent antidote to taking concepts as "reality". Renunciation again :)

With regard to who is renouncing? Sanna will answer the question regardless
of the answer, thus there is renunciation, thus there is living the holy
life. :)

This argument on control, seeing things for what they are and study had been
summed up rather well in a Ch'an/Zen Koan:
  ====================
  Joshu asked Nansen: `What is the path?'
  Nansen said: `Everyday life is the path.'

  Joshu asked: `Can it be studied?'

  Nansen said: `If you try to study, you will be far away from it.'

  Joshu asked: `If I do not study, how can I know it is the path?'

  Nansen said: `The path does not belong to the perception world, neither
does it belong to the nonperception world. Cognition is a delusion and
noncognition is senseless. If you want to reach the true path beyond doubt,
place yourself in the same freedom as sky. You name it neither good nor
not-good.'

  At these words Joshu was enlightened.

  ====================

that's a fine not studying. ;)
but this koan goes much deeper,
nansen knows sanna as not self.
nansen knows the difference between concepts and reality.

mumon himself would ask,
"do you know nansen's zen?"

see ya,
manji

====================

From:  Robert Epstein 
Date:  Sat Jun 1, 2002  12:22 am
Subject:  RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', Reply to Rob E.(Booklet)

--- Sukinder  wrote:

> > > Sukin:
> > > Silabbataparamasa is "wrong practise", meaning anything we do with the
> > > view that doing such things will lead to understanding.
> > R:
> > Sutta study for instance? Or is this exempt from being 'wrong practice'?
> >
> > S:
> > the tipitaka is full of descriptions about all the different realities,
the
> > right path and the wrong path. Don't you think it advisable to read
about all these
> > realities which inevitably arises through the course of our lives and
find out what
> > will lead to what, before deciding that a particular activity is
condusive to
> > understanding?
>
> yes, but my point is that we do so with the hope that we will gain greater
> understanding, so we are certainly reading with intention to learn. you
say
> that
> to do any activity thinking it will improve our understanding is wrong. I
am it
> is not wrong, and that of course we have no choice but to do those
activities
> which we think will improve our understanding, whether it be 'sutta study'
or
> 'meditation'. You assume that sutta study is good, so you don't see the
hope
> that this will improve understanding as being wrong, but it is no
different than
> purposely meditating with the hope of increasing vipassana, etc.

 
13615 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 0:55am
Subject: RE: [dsg] satipatthana

 
  Rob Ep

Believe it or not we have 1 or 2 points of agreement in this post, Rob. 
;-))

> Jon:
> Some people really doubt whether there can be awareness of presently
arising
> ('existing') akusala states.  Here it clearly assumes there can be, and
explains
> that the akusala state and the moment of wisely seeing it are in reality
2
> separate mind moments.

Rob Ep:
Well I think that's great.  It seems that a kusala discernment trumps an
akusala state and disappears it?  So much for the search for good Dharma
medicine for the ills of ordinary life.  A moment of discernment replaces
akusala with kusala, which makes sense.  In that way, discernment and all
the qualities which lead to it:  samatha + vipassana, sati and panna,
defeat the akusala qualities and dissolve them in the moments in which
they exist.  Which explains why when one reaches arahantship, akusala has
been completely rooted out of the system.  

Rather than trying to identify and eradicate akusala states, one need only
focus on the path, and the more one discerns, the more free one is from
these states.

Jon:
The conclusion you draw at the end here is I think correct, Rob, but the
process by which the akusala are rooted out is perhaps a little more
gradual and subtle than you describe, at least to my understanding of the
texts.

When there is awareness (at the level of satipatthana) of an akusala
mental state, nothing is being 'trumped' in the sense of being zapped or
even displaced.

This can perhaps best be understood by considering that the basic process
must be the same whether the dhamma that is the object of awareness is a
kusala dhamma, an akusala one, a vipaka citta or a rupa.  So the mental
state or rupa in question continues to arise for successive moments
according to its appropriate conditions, and cittas with awareness
continue to arise taking that same object for as long as there are the
conditions for the awareness to persist.

What is distinctive about the moment of awareness in terms of effect on
one's accumulations of kusala and akusala is the special function
performed by the mental factors that accompany moments of satipatthana. 
Satipatthana being a (mundane) path moment, the accompanying mental
factors perform their (mundane) path functions.  

For example, the mental factor that is energy performs the function of the
4 sammapaddhanas, so if the object of the awareness is an akusala mental
state, the co-arising effort will perform the function of striving for the
ceasing of that mental state, and if the object of the awareness is a
kusala mental state, the co-arising effort will perform the function of
striving for the continuation of that mental state, and so on.  

In this manner there is some gradual attenuation of the kilesas and some
accumulation of the enlightenment factors at each moment of satipatthana.

Jon




 
13616 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 8:51am
Subject: RE: [dsg] suttas only?

 
  Dear Kelvin,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: kelvin liew peng chuan 
>
> a few days ago, i ahd a chance to have a
> conversation with a monk &
> according to him, all Buddhist should only rely
> on the Suttas & Vinaya.
>
> According to him, Abhidhamma as well as
> Visudhimagga were later works and
> there were many things not in accordance to the
> Suttas in both of these
> later works.
>

I think the issue of Abihdhamma authenticity has been
discussed in this group many times.  For those who are
inclined toward disbeliving the abhidhamma, they say there
are many discrepencies in the abhiddhama when comparing to
the sutta and vinuya.  For those who are inclined toward
believing the abhidhamma, they say the 3 tipitakas (and most
of the commentaries, if not all) are in entirely consistent.

Now, who would you choose the believe?  There are obviously
experts on both sides.  The faults of understanding
incorrectly are immense.

I think you can make your own informed judgement by
carefully studying the three tipitakas and the commentaries
and see them for yourself whether or not they are
consistent, and if they are in accordance with the truth
(sacca dhamma).

For me, when I read the details in the abhiddhamma, I am
joyful of the obvious Buddha's wisdom thoroughly penetrating
the true characteristics of all (real) phenomena, and the
utmost compassion in explicating such subtle dhammas so
thoroughly so that all beings, with little wisdom and thick
dust in their eyes, can too understand these noble truths.
Without the guides of the abhiddhamma (and good dhamma
friends), I would have been (even more) misled into the
thickets of self and miccha-dithi.

kom

 
13617 From: sukinderpal   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 2:15pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: 'no control', Reply to Rob E.(Booklet)

 
  Hi Rob,

First of all let me express my thanks for taking part in this 
discussion with me. I find that left to myself the kilesas causes a 
movement toward proliferation and/or rest in comfort the idea that
there is good understanding of the Buddha's teachings and hence a 
tendency to be self-satisfied. Knowing that there are a lot of 
accumulated kilesas is not so much a result of recognizing them when 
they manifest through body, speech or mind, but mostly is a another 
form of self deception in which saying that I have them allows for 
some more moments of being lax. But this is my accumulations and 
there is no doubt that it is good to be reminded about it, 
discussion is one way in which this can happen.
Regarding the correct interpretation of the Buddha's teachings, I 
hope both of us come to the correct understanding soon, life is too 
short and precious to be taking the wrong turn.

Right or wrong let me now express my understandings a bit more. 
Sorry if I misunderstand your points,
it is possible that I do not know the intended meaning, but you can 
correct me.

> yes, but my point is that we do so with the hope that we will gain 
greater
> understanding, so we are certainly reading with intention to 
learn.  you say that
> to do any activity thinking it will improve our understanding is 
wrong.  I am it
> is not wrong, and that of course we have no choice but to do those 
activities
> which we think will improve our understanding, whether it 
be 'sutta study' or
> 'meditation'.  You assume that sutta study is good, so you don't 
see the hope that
> this will improve understanding as being wrong, but it is no 
different than
> purposely meditating with the hope of increasing vipassana, etc.

But intellectual understanding is just intellectual understanding. 
It is not a practice aimed at direct understanding of realities. 
Direct understanding may happen or it may not, but there is no 
misunderstanding that intellectual knowledge is NOT the direct 
knowledge. In fact direct knowledge is a quantum leap away from the 
mere intellectual understanding. 

> well, for understanding I think there is value in seeing that 
there is no 'us'
> making things happen, but I think it is possible to wrongly draw 
the conclusion
> then that we shouldn't attempt to do anything.  there is a 
difference between
> understanding anatta and giving up responsibility.

Responsibility is I think very relative and exists mostly as an idea 
in the conventional world. There is no responsibility even to "know 
oneself". Impersonal phenomenon have no idea of a thing to do or not 
to do, they just perform their functions. This does not mean that 
nothing is to be done, cittas and cetasikas do their jobs anyway. 
When I for example, listen to K. Sujin or read posts on dsg, I do 
not consider it a responsibility of any kind, yet what I do  
(conventionally speaking)give results either positive or negative 
depending on whether what I do is done with some degree of wisdom or 
not. Would an idea of responsibility have any bearing on the arising 
of sati and panna? I think not. 
In the conventional world I think about responsibility toward my 
family, but that is just an idea which gives me direction. Because 
there is no sati and panna which undersatnd the reality of the moment
and because there are no conditions for metta and karuna to arise, 
there is a dependence on an idea.
    
> well, what I see happening in life is that people take certain 
directions and they
> certainly wind up in a situation related to the circumstances they 
set up for
> themselves.  It's not toally predictable, but if you are sailing 
and aiming for
> shore, you will have to tack against the wind and go various ways, 
but if you are
> skillful you wind up on the shore where you aimed.  There is 
not 'control' but
> there is a gradual relationship between intention and result.  
There is an old
> Chinese saying, as I understand:  "If you don't change your 
direction, you will
> probably wind up where you were headed."

Its not like we decide to sail west from the coast of Spain, and 
because we are consistant and determined in our quest we finally 
make it around the globe. Mara is always ahead of us, there are 
innumerable ways in which we can be deceived, remember the cheating
dhammas and the near and far enemies? Having good friend to point 
out or simply reflect the various ways in which we are deceived 
is I think the only way.

> well, I think an excellent meditation teacher can do the same 
thing.  I still
> think you are prejudiced against meditation without a really good 
reason.  I
> understand the point that it is a planned activity to get a 
certain result, but
> good meditation is not controlled to force a result.  It is an 
activity of inquiry
> into the arising of consciousness and the working of mind.

Rising of consciousness, or the concept of the arising of the concept
of consciousness? Or is there an understanding that one starts with 
what one is capable of understanding (ie. that it is all concept), 
and expect that one day somehow one will gradually wake up to the 
direct apprehension of realities? I doubt first of all, that most 
meditators realize that they are essentially experiencing only 
concepts. Otherwise they wouldn't be so happy so fast, thinking that 
they have made some progress. I think for many the attraction would 
be less if they realize that they were dealing with the "concept" of 
breath and that the idea of practice itself is a "story" they have 
been following.

> yes, but hopefully with greater skill and discernment. It isn't 
good enough just
> to be mindful, but to have insight and develop wisdom. 

Mindfulness, Sati of realities occur accompanied by panna and not 
without. So being mindful is to have wisdom accompanying.
 
> Well, that's kind of my point of view, which is to employ some 
common sense, even
> though the common sense view of whether we are developing kusala 
or akusala may be
> wrong in a given moment, or even in a given period of time.   
Maybe negative kamma
> is coming out and it's a really horrific experience and so we 
think 'oh my God I
> am developing so much akusala I must be on the wrong track' when 
in reality
> something has opened up and akusala is getting worked out and 
kicked out of the
> system.  Sometimes we experience things when they are 'on the way 
out', rather
> than 'on the way in'.  But over time, the general feeling of 
whether things are
> more akusala, or more kusala, whether we are getting 'better' 
or 'worse', whether
> life seems 'lighter' or more 'burdened',  I think gives a pretty 
accurate idea of
> whether we're on the right track or not.

A few days ago, a thought came up that scared me somewhat. One 
tendency of mine I recognized when I first joined dsg and heard 
about satipatthana, is that I like to explain my understandings to 
myself and philosophize about this and that. I behaved as if that 
was the way of understanding. That day I thought about the 
different "gurus" and spiritual teachers all over who manage to 
convince large crowds of people with beautiful explanations and I 
thought about how I do the same to myself. " Am I fooling myself, 
thinking I am doing just what needed to be done but could I instead 
be off track?". "How would I know if what I am doing is right?".
I could say, " go study some more and find out what is the right 
path and what is not". But this would be 'hoping and wishing' no? And
this I would qualify for "wrong practice".
Doubts can arise, its just a dhamma. But trying to control dhamma, 
ie.,a reaction to akusala arisen and fallen away would be I think, 
be falling into the trap of silabattaparamasa. Panna can recognize 
the wrong path and only panna can lead us to the right one, but 
self 'reacts'. (It is my guess that the reactive self originates 
from the same source as the one which created the idea of progress 
in the first place.)
 
> There are exceptions.  I do think it is possible to do something 
like yoga with
> devotion, and yoga will just naturally make you feel physically 
better over time.
> This can mask what is really going on in a sense.  A yogi can 
develop pride in the
> body, pride at his physical prowess, and grow attached to the 
physical well-being
> that comes from being flexible and strong.  This doesn't mean 
someone shouldn't do
> yoga, but it does mean that some pleasant feelings and 
accomplishments can also
> create hindrances to non-attachment and realization of anatta and 
anicca.  But one
> has to be conscious of all of these things, and not just make snap 
judgments about
> practices automatically being akusala either.

First of all I think yoga is good for physical health, I wish I 
could do it myself. But let me talk about scientists a little.
I think a good scientist can be very non-attached and objective in 
his field of practice, even more so than a yoga teacher. Because 
science is based on reason and disinterested  observation of 
'scientific' reality. But any system, if it is not with 
theoretical "right understanding" of realities, ie., kamma / 
vippaka, anatta, anicca etc., will only lead to a reinforcement 
of 'self' and an idea of control.

> I still don't see why there has to be any more attachment with a 
meditation or
> yoga practice than there is with a sutta or discernment practice.  
They all have
> intention, so one has to do them for their purpose and keep an eye 
on the
> attachment, pride, expectation, etc., that will be sure to be 
there.  If one
> discerns these things as they arise, then they will be seen to be 
just as empty in
> the moment as any other object of discernment.

When I sit down to read or listen there can be attachment or not, 
but I know that it is only intellectual, different from direct 
understanding. If there is doubt whether I have understood correctly 
or not and  
I  get all stressed up trying to grasp the meaning, it will still 
not be considered `wrong practice' since it is
aimed only at intellectual understanding. But what is going on when 
I sit down to meditate, I have a preconceived idea that I know what 
to look for. This means comparing what I've learnt theoretically 
with what I am experiencing and hoping that one day I will 
experience just what the texts talk about, in the mean
time precision will increase. But I do not think it works this way, 
we do not know how much avija is being
accumulated realted to an activity we `intentionaly' do. Sati cannot 
arise to a person (concept), sitting down to meditate(concept) and 
watching the breath(concept). In a day there is so much 
unintentional boosting of 
`atta sanna' when we identify with me, I, myself, mine or simply 
think about body parts or objects here and there. How much more so 
would that happen with a planned activity concerning `my' body and 
mind 
projected onto the future?

> It may tell us whether we are on the right track or not.  Isn't 
that part of
> discernment?  How can we be blissfully ignorant and hope that this 
will somehow
> aid our practice?

I may be blissfully unaware now as I write, but what happens when 
I'm reminded about mindfulness. If the 
conditions are right, there can be a moment of sati, otherwise I 
will remain unmindful. But what if I `try' to
be mindful, can sati arise at will? If I don't have the intellectual 
knowledge about sati and concept, wouldn't
"I" try to be mindful and then mistake what is not sati to be sati?

>   Measuring
> > progress
> > will condition an attempt to do something in relation to the 
result. *What
> > will
> > be that something to do?!*
> 
> I don't have the feeling about *doing* things that you do.  I 
think it's okay to
> have the intention to do something and get a certain result.  I 
still think that
> making believe one doesn't have an intention has more danger that 
accepting the
> intention that is there and working with it to release expectation 
and sincerely
> go after the result proscribed by Buddha.  We all want to develop 
kusala, panna,
> vipassana, and reach Nibbana.  The question is how do we follow 
this path, and
> what do we do with these intentions.  They're not going to go away.

Understood. So what you are saying is that practice doesn't 
necessary mean a reactive response. It may
originate from a clear purpose in life and understanding what the 
Buddha really taught. So we come back to
whether the Buddha did teach meditation or not. Since we can't come 
to a conclusion at this stage, let us examine the matter a bit.
I believe that jhana can be formally practiced if the accumulations 
and external conditions are right. Why, 
because jhana requires concentration on a conceptual object. But 
what does it mean to "practice satipatthana"?
We hope that by observing breath, thoughts, feelings, sensations 
etc.,one day sati will be mindful of dhammas 
as they actually are (ie. when they arise).
It is my understanding, that most meditators observe what they 
believe to be `rise and fall' of breath, feelings,
thoughts etc. But we know from study, that rise and fall can be 
observed only after the objects to which rise
and fall is refered has been known, ie. a nama or a rupa. Before 
that we must have had many many previous
experiences of satipatthana, which is the visesa lakhana (individual 
characteristic) of dhammas. So aren't we 
having a contrary understanding to the way things really are? I 
think the practice is self defeating. 

> Yes, but those things that are most promoted and repeated will 
accumulate more. 
> If one is discerning realities all the time, there will be more 
discernment
> accumulating and passed down.  The cittas arising will be more 
discerning ones and
> there will be more discerning cittas arising.  If I am wrong about 
this, someone
> with more experience can correct me.

You are correct, but there is no `sef' who can direct this.

> Well, I understand your sense of that.  I am not as versed in the 
characteristics
> of the sotapanna, and I tend not to judge people's attainment on 
all of the little
> things they do.  I'd like to meet a sotapanna and observe their 
behavior!

But the result of the observation will only reflect the 
understanding of the observer no?;-)
In Buddhism, a sotapanna is one who has eradicated the kilesas which 
would otherwise condition the breaking of the precepts.

> Well, if that were absolutely true, there would be no need for the 
spiritual
> friend to explain the dhamma, because this would be watering down 
the suttas, and
> it would furthermore be polluting them.  But the commentaries are 
there none the
> less, and valued by practitioners.  And the modern commentaries 
explain the
> earlier commentaries, because despite the wisdom of the Buddha, 
without the
> commentaries and sub-commentaries we can neither understand nor 
agree on the
> meaning of the Buddha's words.  So I would say that each 
generation reinterprets
> the teachings for their generation, whether anyone likes this or 
doesn't like it. 
> Nina's books makes sense of Abhidhamma for this world, this time 
and place.  I'm
> sure in another age, she would have written another way.  We need 
the people who
> are here now, not just the Buddha, as perfect as his understanding 
was.

The commentaries are good, Nina's writings are good and I often 
prefer them to reading the original words,
because they explain something I would never otherwise understand 
had I only read the original teachings.
I believe that Nina has done a great favour for us all in explaining 
otherwise difficult to understand texts.
But is this an improvement? It only reflects an adjustment to time 
and place, but the adaptation and `all
explanations' cannot retain the depth and scope of the original. A 
person with high level of accumulated wisdom would in my 
understanding, appreciate the direct word of the Buddha more than 
the commentaries.
He would probably find the elaborate explanations unnecessary. Words 
can help but they can also misdirect.
But this is just speculation on my part.

> Well, you don't see mindfulness as a cumulative acquirement that 
is carried over
> from practice to living.   Yet, the citta theory acknowledges that 
cittas carry
> the accumulations from previous cittas and there is a 
developmental movement in
> the flow of cittas, based on what they experience and pick up.  
These things are
> not completely lost in the moment, even though the citta falls 
away and another
> rises.  In practical experience we do experience that we 
accumulate tendencies and
> understandings and become more skillful.  If we didn't accumulate 
something, then
> we would never learn to walk.  Each step would be starting from 
scratch with no
> prior learning from the step before, which is of course absurd.  
We do learn, and
> we can learn mindfulness and become more mindful of arising 
realities through
> practice just as we learn to walk through practice.  You can say 
that the best
> walking comes from natural walking, not from purposely 
practicing.  The child
> tries to get something and in the effort has to walk.  But 
children also have
> natural 'practice periods' where they purposely try to walk over 
and over again,
> because they are tired of not being able to walk.  They want to 
learn.  Why not
> with mindfulness as well?  It doesn't seem absurd to me at all to 
do this and to
> carry it over.

Yes, but sati arises and falls, even a Buddha cannot have sati all 
the time. To think otherwise is to be taking
what is not sati to be sati. Walking can be conditioned by kusala, 
akusala or kiriya cittas. I don't think you 
can compare this with a particular cetasika, namely sati. Sati 
arises with only beautiful cetasikas and it is 
much, much harder for the beautiful cetasikas to come together, than 
akusala ones. Surely it is not there when
"someone" has it.

> And when you meditate, it is not to confuse this with being 
enlightened, or
> confuse this with everyday living, it is to meditate so you can 
develop your
> understanding of the moments when you are meditating, and then 
that carries over
> in a certain way.  If you weren't interested in the 'theory' 
carrying over in some
> way, you wouldn't do it.  It is only because the theory has 
indirect bearing on
> accumulation of insight and understanding of realities that one 
does it at all. 
> So i don't think it's completely honest to say that it is 'for 
theoretical
> understanding only'.

I admit that I am not completely honest with myself, there must be 
some degree of self deception. But
whether this moment I study with detachment or I have the ulterior 
intention to have direct experience, 
will have an effect on how I read, write or listen in the future. 
Yet when I see theory as just theory, and my 
study is not taken as anything more( which can happen when I'm 
honest with myself), then I think this is different from meditating 
with an aim to understand what is going on, more so meditating with 
the aim
of ultimately realizing nibbana. In the former there is acceptance 
of just knowing theory, words, concept;
and understanding that all dhammas are anatta therefore cannot be 
directed and controled. In the latter   
there is a presupposition that `some dhamma' can direct the flow of 
other dhammas to the attainment
of yet other dhammas.
 
> Heh heh, it's quite an exercise, I agree!  And we did the whole 
thing in the hope
> of getting something out of it!  Oh well!!  

Soon, soon I hope.

Best wishes,

Sukin.

 
13618 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 2:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities

 
  Howard

 --- Howard wrote: 
> Hi, Jon -
...
[Howard:]
       Well, it's hard for me to say exactly how I find the pragmatist -
phenomenalist view helpful in understanding the Dhamma, but I will try. It
provides me with a conceptual perspective for seeing the Dhamma in an
integrated fashion, and it makes sense out of various parts of the
teaching that I would find more difficult to grasp without it. It seems to
fit well, and to make clear much that would not be clear to me. As an
example, rebirth becomes change in realm of experience, rather like
"changing channels", as opposed to somehow moving to a different
externally existing physical place or realm. There is no problem of
explaining how, without a transmigrating "soul", rebirth occurs - there is
no need to come up with some external physical mechanism for one's kamma
to induce a physical rebirth, because the physical is just a mode of
experience, and rebirth is just a switching to a new channel of
experience, the switch occurring, of course, only when the conditions for
it are in place. Mentality and materiality hang together, being merely
differing modes of experience. A constant stream of
citta-cetasika-arramana events, the flow of experience: that is the world.
That is "The All".

Jon:
Thanks for explaining this, Howard.  I do appreciate that you feel your
understanding of certain aspects of the dhamma has been helped by your
interest in phenomenalism.

Of course, it's not phenomenalism as such that helps make sense of the
dhamma for you, but your predisposition towards the views and concepts
that underlie the dhamma (and phenomenalism).

I suppose I would just like to sound a note of caution, that when it comes
to other aspects of the teachings, having this particular perspective may
predispose you towards a view that is not in fact in accord with the
teachings, and then it wouldn't be such a help.  But I'm sure you're
already alert to this possibility.

Jon


 
13619 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 2:51pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vitthaara sutta: To Jonothan Abbott And Nina van Gorkom

 
  Suan

--- abhidhammika  wrote: > 
> 
> Dear Nina, And Jonothan
> 
> How are you?
> 
> Thank you for your kind comments on Kamma In Color the English 
> language Commentary on Vittaara Suttam.
> 
> As you might have been already aware of, there are people who 
> misunderstand Abhidhamma Pitaka. They think Abhidhamma Pitaka is an 
> unnecessary body of teachings lacking in important teachings found in 
> Suttam Pitaka. For example, Venerable Dhamarati thought that Four 
> Groups of Kamma found in Vitthaara Suttam could not be found in 
> Abhidhamma, and accordingly, threw a challenge at me and Robert by 
> asking to locate them in Abhidhamma Pitaka and show referrences.
> 
> My commentary has been written to remove such misunderstanding 
> rampant among some Buddhist thinkers.

I am to a certain extent sympathetic to anyone who sees the Abhidhamma as
teaching something different from the suttanta, since it took me a very
long while myself to appreciate how both bodies of teaching are carrying
the same message.

I think your commentary is a good example of how it needs a detailed
knowledge of both in order to be able to relate one to the other.  I've no
doubt it will inspire others to study and inquire further.

Jon



 
13620 From: Lucy   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:25pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts, to Sarah, and offerings, to Lucy

 
  Dear Nina

Thank you for bringing up the offering of sounds. This is one of my favs -
although, as you say, it is sometimes difficult to remember straight away
because music has a way of captivating and engulfing the mind and it's not
easy to remain mindful. But the offering of a beautiful sound to the Three
Gems increases the joy of listening and this is an incentive to always
offer. I notice that even if I've forgotten to offer, the thought of
offering arises spontaneously soon as the music or sound (birds and
gurgling water included) reaches a peak of exquisiteness.

I think the same goes for the scent of flowers or anything else that is
beautiful. Offering makes things even more beautiful... but then there is
often a lingering thought about the experienced beauty being actually merit
that is being spent...does Khun Sujin say anything about this? At one time
I used to be nearly paranoid about even opening a water tap thinking that
this was wasting kusala that was needed for enlightenment. In my line of
"deviation"  this includes all beings - so one is even more guilty about
letting all other beings down by enjoying something on one's own. Offering
whatever it is makes one feel less guilty and less paranoid.

Now, if I remember (sigh!), I also offer running water, driving cars on
nice smooth roads and switching lights on.

Best wishes
Lucy

 
13621 From: Lucy   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  Dear Larry

I feel rather guilty at letting you on your on with this . Thing is, I am
hopelessly behind. I took the text with me but it all
remained in the aspiration state.

But this is a chapter that really interested me.  Though
I guess most of those questions have to wait until enlightenment
to be answered.

Only one for now: just HOW is the body / rupa appropriated ??? This isn't
at all clear to me, is there a heap of rupa out there (where???) waiting to
be taken by a nama (re-becoming) ? Doesn't this contradict what the Visdm.
say about there not being a store of skandha out there waiting to be
appropriated?   I can understand one citta being the cause for the next one
to arise, and a succession of these going on endlessly since beginningless
time ... but what about "matter"??? Is it out there following its own
course? Why? How? What happens before a Big Bang when all matter may be
condensed into a super-duper-atom about to become a Universe? And why does
Dependent Origination say that "name-and-form" arises in dependence upon
"consciousness"??? It doesn't say that rupa is harvested by citta
from among a selection of rupa following its own course somewhere else - or
does it? And how come that the birth citta manages to find itself a chunk
of rupa (genes, parents, environment, etc.) that is exactly suitable to its
ripening karma  and to the death citta ... Has anyone worked out the
mathematical /
probability implications of this?

Lucy

 
13622 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 6:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  --
Dear Lucy,
The texts say that at the first moment of a new life the rebirth-
consciousness (patisandhi-citta) which arises is produced by kamma 
that was perfomed at some prior time. This citta can arise in planes 
where there are both nama and rupa (mentality and materiality) such 
as the human or animal realm or, so the texts say, in planes where 
there is no matter (the arupa brahma realms).
If it is in a human or animal world (for example) then it arises at 
the heart base which is also produced by kamma. But the other rupas 
that support the heart base are produced not by kamma but by other 
factors such as temperature. Very quickly this tiny mass of matter 
and mentality grows: the matter is conditioned by various factors - 
nutrition, citta, kamma and temperature and in a few short weeks 
what was barely visible is  a sizeable object.

Your comment "And how come that the birth citta manages to find 
itself a chunk
> of rupa (genes, parents, environment, etc.) that is exactly 
suitable to its
> ripening karma  and to the death citta ... Has anyone worked out 
the mathematical /
> probability implications of this?""

The mass of rupas that comprise the egg and sperm before the 
patisandhicitta arises is only matter produced by temperature. If we 
think that it has to be exact and that it is all determined by 
genes' from the parent we won't understand the complexity of kamma 
and other conditions. Take identical twins: they can never be 
exactly the same even though genetically they are identical, in some 
ways their behaviour is a little different. Or recently a cat was 
cloned (an exact genetic duplicate of the mother) the report 
noted:  ""Genetic tests confirm that the kitten, now two months old, 
is indeed a genetic copy of the original calico cell donor. 
Interestingly, the kitten does not have the same coloring as the 
genetic parent, a fact the researchers attribute to the play of 
dueling X chromosomes and developmental factors outside the control 
of the nucleic DNA."""
http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/SU102001/copycat.html
I read some reports where some scientists were suprised about this 
but it seems perfectly understandable when we know that 'genes' are 
only part of the story. 

You ask about what happens when  the aeon ends and before a new aeon 
begins. In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha says "there comes a time, 
bhikkhus when after a long period this world contracts. While the 
world is contracting (disintergrating) beings for the most part are 
born in the abhassara brahma world there they dwell mind made 
feeding on rature..and they continue thus for a long time..But 
sooner or alter there comes a time when this world begins to expand 
once again. When the world begins to expand an empty palace of 
brahma appears.Then a certain being, due to exhaustion of his 
lifespan or merit arise there....." 
I could add more if you like.
best wishes
robert

-  "Lucy"  wrote:
> Dear Larry
> 
> I feel rather guilty at letting you on your on with this . Thing 
is, I am
> hopelessly behind. I took the text with me but it all
> remained in the aspiration state.
> 
> But this is a chapter that really interested me.  Though
> I guess most of those questions have to wait until enlightenment
> to be answered.
> 
> Only one for now: just HOW is the body / rupa appropriated ??? 
This isn't
> at all clear to me, is there a heap of rupa out there (where???) 
waiting to
> be taken by a nama (re-becoming) ? Doesn't this contradict what 
the Visdm.
> say about there not being a store of skandha out there waiting to 
be
> appropriated?   I can understand one citta being the cause for the 
next one
> to arise, and a succession of these going on endlessly since 
beginningless
> time ... but what about "matter"??? Is it out there following its 
own
> course? Why? How? What happens before a Big Bang when all matter 
may be
> condensed into a super-duper-atom about to become a Universe? And 
why does
> Dependent Origination say that "name-and-form" arises in 
dependence upon
> "consciousness"??? It doesn't say that rupa is harvested by citta
> from among a selection of rupa following its own course somewhere 
else - or
> does it? And how come that the birth citta manages to find itself 
a chunk
> of rupa (genes, parents, environment, etc.) that is exactly 
suitable to its
> ripening karma  and to the death citta ... Has anyone worked out 
the
> mathematical /
> probability implications of this?
> 
> Lucy

 
13623 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 7:02pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Satipatthana - realisation of the 3 characteristics

 
  Rob Ep

You question whether in fact seeing the ti-lakkhana (3 characteristics),
and particularly anatta, in the arising object can be anything more than a
kind of conceptual understanding. 

I think it's clear from the texts that the realisation of these attributes
is meant to be a direct (i.e., non-conceptual) one.  The texts also
indicate that this realisation requires a relatively highly developed
level of direct knowledge of dhammas to be significant.  The difficulty of
experiencing dhammas to the degree that the characteristic of anatta can
be perceived is mentioned in the passage from the 'Dispeller of Delusion'
quoted below.

From our studies, we know that in fact that these characteristics are not
truly known until enlightenment is attained.  Penetration of the 3
characterises is one of the indicators of magga citta.

I agree that the reflection on something one has just experienced can only
ever bring observations that are 'thought-related and deductively drawn'. 
In fact, I would say any such 'understanding' should correctly be viewed
as a kind of thinking, nothing special, which may or may not be kusala. 

Only the understanding that comes from direct knowledge can give the
perception of the ti-lakkhana *in* the object.  It is the Buddha's
teaching that this can be realised each person for themselves, but no
doubt it needs a lot of patience and careful study to be possible to
verify this.

Jon

From Sammohavinodani, commentary to the Vibhanga -- 'Dispeller of
Delusion', Pali Text Society, p. 59 & 60:

"The characteristic of no-self is unobvious, dark, unclear, difficult to
penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known.  The
characteristics of impermanence and dukkha are made known with or without
the arising of the Tathagathas.  The characteristic of no-self … is only
made known on the arising of the enlightened ones. 
…
"The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in
mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements
(nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... But
when ... resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by
resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta appears
in accordance with its true essential nature."

 --- Robert Epstein  wrote: 
> Hi Jon.
> Comments below.
...
> ... I have a hard time seeing the discernment of anatta,
> anicca and dukkha in the arising object as being a non-conceptual
> understanding. 
> I mean, it is a realization that these qualities exist in the object,
not
> something that can be directly perceived.  Where does 'anatta' live in a
> rupa or
> nama in the moment?  Anatta is the absence of something, it cannot be
> perceived as
> a direct quality, same thing for anicca.  It is only upon reflection on
> the
> momentary nature one has experienced, immediately afterwards perhaps,
> that one can
> deduce anatta or anicca as a quality of the object.  It seems to me to
> be a very
> direct but thought-related insight.  If I am used to assuming that an
> object has a
> fixed and substantial nature, and I suddenly see with clear discernment
> that it
> lasts only a moment and then changes into something else, then I can
> draw the
> conclusion; 'there is no fixed entity here [anatta], and there is no
> permanent
> reality but only a very fleeting one [anicca].  Buddha seems to describe
> this kind
> of insight as a kind of statement in many, many suttas, and it seems to
> me that
> this is an insight, an understanding, that is deductively drawn from a
> direct
> discernment, rather than being directly discerned itself.
> 
> If you disagree with this, please explain how anatta or anicca can be
> perceived
> through a sense-door.  If it is a nama, then it is a thought *about* a
> rupa that
> has just been perceived and that has passed.  And this is different than
> perceiving anatta, anicca and dukkha *in* the object in the moment.
> 
> The reason I am emphasizing this, is that I think the role of useful
> concepts may
> be a very strong one, when they are based on direct discernment.






 
13624 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 7:17pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Howard

I agree with your comment below about the overwhelming thrust of the
Abhidhamma, and I have no argument at all with the passage from
Nyanaponika Thera's book.

Just to state what I have read about this, I believe the abhidhamma holds
that the rupas we take to be inanimate objects are conditioned by utu
(temperature), and by that alone and no other condition.  It follows
necessarily from this, I think, that those dhammas arise independently of
any experience of them.

Not that I see this as being any big issue, but just to try to clarify
this point of detail.

Jon

--- Howard wrote: > Hi, Jon -
> 
> In a message dated 6/1/02 3:33:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Jon writes:
> 
> 
> > Talking about (a) then, I see that as not being a correct statement
> (as I
> > think I've indicated in another post or posts).  I'd be interested to
> know
> > what part of the Abhidhamma you have in mind here.  Thanks.
> > 
> =================================
>         Statement (a) is: The Buddhist perspective, and most explicitly
> so in 
> Abhidhamma, doesn't countenance objects existing independently of
> experience.
>        As you know, my ignorance of Abhidhamma runs deep ;-)), and,
> thus, I'm 
> not in any position to give useful detail. The answer is merely that the
> 
> overwhelming thrust of Abhidhamma as I have so far encountered it is
> that of 
> a detailed description of *experience*. It appears to be more of a 
> phenomenology than an ontology. Nyanaponika Thera, for example, in his 
> ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES, wrote: "The Abhidhamma system, however, is not
> concerned 
> with an artificial abstract world of  'objects in themselves'. In so far
> as 
> it deals with external facts at all, the respective concepts refer to
> the 
> relation of those 'external facts' to the bondage or liberation of the
> human 
> mind; or they are terms auxiliary to the tasks of the understanding and 
> mental training connected with the work of liberation."  That certainly
> seems 
> to express a phenomenological and pragmatist/utilitarian perspective.
> 
> With metta,
> Howard


 
13625 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 7:19pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities.

 
  Howard

You quoting CMA back at me …  Now, there's an interesting turn of events!!
;-))

--- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Jon -
> 
>        Here is another example of seeing Abhidhamma as a
> phenomenological 
> enterprise. The following is from the introduction (by U Rewata Dhamma
> and 
> Bhikkhu Bodhi) to a Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma:
> ***************
> The Abhidhamma's attempt to comprehend the nature of reality, contrary
> to 
> that of classical science in the West, does not proceed from the
> standpoint 
> of a neutral observer looking outwards towards the external world. The 
> primary concern of the Abhidhamma is to understand the nature of
> experience, 
> and thus the reality on which it focuses is conscious reality, the world
> as 
> given in experience, comprising both knowledge and the known in the
> widest 
> sense. For this reason the philosophical enterprise of the Abhidhamma
> shades 
> off into a phenomenological psychology.
> *************************

I have no particular disagreement with this passage (except that I can't
comment on the last sentence).  But I don't think it suggests that the
Abhidhamma is altogether silent on the point of our discussion.

Jon


 
13626 From: Sarah   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 7:33pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Dear Christine & All,

 --- christine_forsyth  wrote: > Dear All,
> 
> Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was 
> mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously 
> regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.  
> The friend said  that if another person points out our (true) 
> faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see 
> it as someone pointing us to treasure.  
*****

I’m no expert when it comes to the graceful acceptance of criticism (quite
the contrary), but I have been reflecting a little over the weekend and
I’d like to offer a few comments about aspects I find helpful in this
regard. I also learn a lot from my students in this regard -- some can
really hear and appreciate criticism which tends to encourage the teacher
to help more (and with more goodwill, I find). For others, their
inclination is to react and argue which tends to discourage assistance and
goodwill.

I think that usually, the problem with hearing adverse comments or
criticism -- and surely the reason we find it easier to pounce on our
perception of the speaker’s unwholesomeness-- is mana (conceit) and
clinging to self again. As we know conceit ‘has haughtiness as
characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to (advertise self like) a
banner as manifestation....’. When we hear the adverse comments, the
banner can be so apparent, I find. 

We’ve discussed before the list of objects on account of which mana arises
from the Vibhanga (17) and these include “...pride of gain;  pride of
being honoured;  pride of being respected;  pride of prominence; pride of
having adherents;  pride of wealth;  pride of appearance;  pride of
intelligence;  pride of being a knowledgeable authority;...”. 

We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so
important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the
value of being a ‘nobody’ or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our
trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this
very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I
was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of
being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually,
I’ve come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what 
precious ‘treasure’ they are. 

The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about K.Sujin’s
example of the dustrag on that trip:
*****
1.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html
“Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves
for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it.
One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive
anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner,
compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right
understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there
will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again: 

I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my
resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing
understanding and metta. . 

It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness
seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to
letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent
namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as
important as before? ' 

We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave
when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of
a legal question. We read: 

...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though
it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about
sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on
(the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly
ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor
about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or
should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
silence...
The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it
were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." 
*****
2.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv6.html
“There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody with
great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared himself
with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not consider
ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us from
pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in
reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) to keep
us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. Do we
want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in order
to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we will
take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection of
equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes
of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their
own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame.
When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of
metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to
remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion
or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that
the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a
person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the different
perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily
life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she
prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta,
patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not
feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize
her." <en quotes>
*****

When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the Simile of
the Snake, they should be ‘grasped’ in a way which leads to less mana and
clinging to self importance rather than the reverse.

I know this is getting rather long, but at risk of  over-testing
everyone’s patience, I’d like to requote two paragraphs from ADL (ch 5)
which Larry wisely repeated in a post to Dai Wen as an offering of
assistance for the difficult office situation, emphasising the value of
understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, not self: 
-------------------- 
"All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. We are
like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the objects
which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense
and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the situation we
are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people may be
kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we attach too
much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily disturbed
in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. 

We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we
ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena arising
because of conditions and falling away again. When others say unpleasant
things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in that way,
and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other
people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena
which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena,
they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the way to
become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is
mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to the way
people behave towards us." <end quote>
*****
“At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have already
fallen away”

Hoping you find these offerings to be of some use.

Sarah
=======



 --- christine_forsyth  wrote: > Dear All,
> 
> Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was 
> mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously 
> regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.  
> The friend said  that if another person points out our (true) 
> faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see 
> it as someone pointing us to treasure.  



 
13627 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 8:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  --- 
This is all great stuff, Sarah. Christine wrote a very nice passage 
along similar lines about dosa(aversion ) on d-l today.
I think I can't hear enough about these matters. 
The posts by Sukin and Dan especially, over the last few weeks, 
about wrong practice have been so sagacious that we might overlook  
these points below, because we(or I am- no offense to anyone) are so 
conceited that we often don't even know it is present: but the thing 
is that conceit is a papanca that prolongs samsara and when we are 
not awake to it we are contented and deluded, living in a fools 
paradise. It applies just as much to one who studies the Dhamma as 
one who doesn't.  Dispeller of delusion part 11 p225 
notes that one may study the Dhamma with an attitude of grasping, 
wanting to be  better and wiser than others: "it is not 
permissible to learn (the discourses) actuated by presumption(or 
competitiveness,sarambho); that is on the unprofitable side and it 
is the path which leads to hell". 
It is one of the things  I always get from Acharn sujin - that the 
Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for 
accumulating: but easy to forget and get swept along in the current 
of conceit and view and craving.
best
robert

 Sarah  wrote:
> > The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about 
K.Sujin's
> example of the dustrag on that trip:
> *****
> 1.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html
> "Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag 
which serves
> for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed 
by it.
> One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could 
forgive
> anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust 
manner,
> compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right
> understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, 
there
> will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said 
again: 
> 
> I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my
> resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing
> understanding and metta. . 
> 
> It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because 
humbleness
> seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must 
lead to
> letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only 
impermanent
> namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can 
they be as
> important as before? ' 
> 
> We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should 
behave
> when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the 
investigation of
> a legal question. We read: 
> 
> ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as 
though
> it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and 
skilled about
> sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without 
encroaching on
> (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping 
newly
> ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory 
fashion, nor
> about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma 
himself or
> should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
> silence...
> The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as 
though it
> were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." 
> *****
> 2.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv6.html
> "There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody 
with
> great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared 
himself
> with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not 
consider
> ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us 
from
> pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in
> reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) 
to keep
> us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. 
Do we
> want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in 
order
> to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we 
will
> take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection 
of
> equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the 
vicissitudes
> of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because 
of their
> own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or 
blame.
> When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the 
value of
> metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we 
will try to
> remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be 
compassion
> or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we 
remember that
> the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not 
a
> person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the 
different
> perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our 
daily
> life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that 
while she
> prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such 
as metta,
> patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does 
not
> feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they 
criticize
> her." <en quotes>
> *****
> 
> When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the 
Simile of
> the Snake, they should be `grasped' in a way which leads to less 
mana and
> clinging to self importance rather than the reverse.
> 
> I know this is getting rather long, but at risk of  over-testing
> everyone's patience, I'd like to requote two paragraphs from ADL 
(ch 5)
> which Larry wisely repeated in a post to Dai Wen as an offering of
> assistance for the difficult office situation, emphasising the 
value of
> understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, not self: 
> -------------------- 
> "All degrees of lobha, be it coarse or more subtle, bring sorrow. 
We are
> like slaves as long as we are absorbed in and infatuated by the 
objects
> which present themselves through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-
sense
> and mind. We are not free if our happiness depends on the 
situation we
> are in, and the way others behave towards us. One moment people 
may be
> kind to us, but the next moment they may be unpleasant. If we 
attach too
> much importance to the affection of other, we shall be easily 
disturbed
> in mind, and thus become slaves of our moods and emotions. 
> 
> We can become more independent and free if we realize that both we
> ourselves and other people are only nama and rupa, phenomena 
arising
> because of conditions and falling away again. When others say 
unpleasant
> things to us there are conditions which cause them to speak in 
that way,
> and there are conditions which cause us to hear such words. Other
> people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned 
phenonomena
> which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these 
phenomena,
> they have already fallen away. The development of insight is the 
way to
> become less dependent on the vicissitudes of life. When there is
> mindfulness of the present moment, we attach less importance to 
the way
> people behave towards us." <end quote>
> *****
> "At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena, they have 
already
> fallen away"
> 
> Hoping you find these offerings to be of some use.
> 
> Sarah
> =======
> 
> 
> 
>  --- christine_forsyth  wrote: > Dear All,
> > 
> > Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was 
> > mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously 
> > regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking 
over.  
> > The friend said  that if another person points out our (true) 
> > faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we 
should see 
> > it as someone pointing us to treasure.  
> 
> 
> 

 
13628 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 8:47pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  > It is one of the things  I always get from Acharn sujin - that the 
> Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for 
> accumulating: but easy to forget and get swept along in the current 
> of conceit and view and craving.
> best
> robert

Robert and all,

See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html

Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.

Regards,
Victor

 
13629 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 9:42pm
Subject: lokasutta and commentary

 
  Dear Howard and all, here is Howard's quote of the sutta , and the
commentary I have in Thai and Pali. The quote here should be completed, by
stating the opposite, and I have the PTS edition. See below.

Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
> For free distribution only. Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One
> addressed the monks: "I will teach you the origination of the world & the
> ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you
> say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said:
> "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms
> there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From
> contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a
> requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition
> comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite
> condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes
> birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow,
> lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the
> origination of the world. "
My additions: the same is said about hearing and sound...etc. mind and
things experienced through mind-consciousness.
The opposite is also stated in this sutta:
<Because of sight and visible objects visual consciosuness arises, etc.
contact is the clash of the three; feeling is conditioned by contact,
craving by feeling. By the utter fading away and ceasing of craving,
grasping ceases, by the ceasing of grasping, becoming ceases, by the ceasing
of becoming, birth ceases, by the ceasing of birth, decay and death, grief,
lamentating, suffering, despair cease. Such is the ceasing of the world.>

Just one remark for Kelvin who heard it said that the Abhidhamma is not
taught by the Buddha. This sutta is one of the countless examples that the
Buddha taught Abhidhamma all the time. This sutta is about the conditions
for seeing, etc. and about the Dependent origination. Is that Abhidhamma or
not? 
Now I continue with the Commentary: the world:

< lokassaa ti, sankhaara-lokassa. Ayam ettha viseso.
Of the world, meaning, the world of sankharas. This is here the meaning.>

My remark: the world is here the conditioned dhammas, sankhaara dhammas.
In the Thai edition it is said, for the commentary, go to the commentary of
the preceding sutta, about dukkha. The same words are used here, we just
have to substitute for dukkha, the world.  What is the arising of dukkha?
because of sight and visible objects, visual consciousness arises.
Therefore, I go now over to the commentary to this sutta which is also
relevant to the sutta about the arising of the world. (K. II, Niddaanavagga,
Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch 5, §43):
Now I only render the text in short (lack of time):

Of dukkha: dukkha of vatta, the cycle of birth and death. Samudaya,
origination: of two kinds: momentary origination and origination by paccaya,
condition. When the bhikkhu sees the origination by condition, he also sees
the momentary origination, and the opposite is true.The commentary explains
also that there are two kinds of cessation: complete falling away and the
breaking up (Pali: rodha, meaning obstruction, prevention).
My remark: the first way of cessation is momentary such as citta that falls
away now. The second one: falling away for good, no more condiitons for
arising again. 
The Co explains that when the Bhikkhu sees the first kind of cessation he
also see the second one, and the opposite.
<I shall teach, meaning, this is the origination of (dukkha of vatta), the
suffering consisting in the cycle, the extinction of dukkha, namely, the
ceasing of birth. Listen to this, this is the meaning.
Paticca, condition:   because of nissaya-paccaya, condition of dependence,
and arammana-paccaya, condition of object. Because of the coming together of
three factors there is contact.>
My remark: when there is the association of eyesense, visible object and
seeing, there is the manifestation of contact.
The Commentary states:
<this is the origination of dukkha, namely, the origination of the suffering
consisting in the cycle of birth and death. Cessation: breaking up. This is
the breaking up of the suffering consisting in the cycle, no rebirth
(appa.tisandhiya.m).>
My remarks: the four noble Truths have been taught here, is this Abhidhamma
or not? It is a good reminder that the bhikkhu sees origination and
cessation with regard to a twofold meaning. If the arising and falling away
of nama and rupa at this moment are not realized, there cannot be the
realization of the dependent origination, the arising of the condiitons
leading to rebirth, beginning with ignorance, and the conditions leading to
the end of the cycle, the end of rebirth, through panna that has eradicated
ignorance. 
I have more to say on this sutta, but I finish now.
Nina.  




13630 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 9:42pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]lokasutta and phenomenology

 
  op 01-06-2002 13:57 schreef Howard op Howard:

Dear Howard,
Do you teach higher mathematics? I would like to know, because I really try
to understand the philosophical terms you use. At first I was scary of these
terms, but slowly I get used to them. Did you read Plato in Greek? For me it
is long ago, but I enjoyed his precision, nuances, expressed by all these
small particles. For the same reason I like Pali and the Abhidhamma.
I like to find out about the ideas you want to express. You express yourself
in a measured way, and I do not think you are inclined to go into extremes.
I collected the posts of your long dialogues with Jon, in order to figure
out what you mean by phenomenology, pragmatism. Your quotes from Nyanaponika
and also from the Manual are interesting. I shall come back to these quotes.

Some of the other things you said: a challenging definition of rebirth:
change in realm of experience instead of change to externally existing
plane. Well, what do you think of this: the plane of existence is a
condition for the objects that will be experienced after
rebirth-consciousness? In this line we speak of the animal world, but it is
not a specific place, I see dogs all around. But there are specific
conditions for their experiences in life as an animal. They have their
limitations, can develop kusala but not panna.

I gather that your main point is that the Abhidhamma does not countenance
objects existing independently of experience. For this I shall go back first
to the Lokasutta:

 <And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms
there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. >

Eyesense is a rupa that is able to receive visible object, another rupa.
When visible object impinges on the eyesense, there is a condition for
seeing. Rupa lasts longer than citta, in fact seventeen times longer than
citta. We do not count cittas here, but this is a mode of comparison of the
duration of rupa and nama. Thus, visible object is seen, and apart from
seeing, other cittas in the eye-door process also experience visible object.
These cittas do not see but perform other functions, adverting, receiving
the object, investigating it, determining it, reacting to it with kusala or
akusala. In fact a whole process of cittas experience visible object which
has not fallen away yet.
Rupa that arises is weak at its arising moment, it cannot be object yet,
neither can it be base. It is there, it is real, but it is not experienced
yet for that short moment. After the arising moment it can be object that is
experienced. Or something else can happen: visible object arises, and it
makes the bhavangacitta (life-continuum, arising in between processes)
vibrate, but, since it had already arisen for a while, it was time for its
falling away, before eye-door process cittas had an opportunity to
experience it; it cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. In
that case the process does not run.
We read in the Book of Analysis: Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, 319, under 1.
Singlefold Exposition:
<The five types of sense consciousness "have arisen bases, have arisen
objects" means: They (each) arise on an arisen base, on an arisen object.
"Have pre-existing bases, have pre-existing objects" means: They (each)
arise on a pre-existing base, on a pre-existing object.
"Have internal bases, have external objects" means: The bases of the five
types of sense consciousness are internal, the objects are external. >

When we consider rupas such as visible object or sound, these arise and fall
away but they are not experienced all the time. They arise and fall away in
groups of rupas consisting of the four great Elements and other derived
rupas. Even if we see the Abhidhamma as a phenomenological enterprise (a
challenging definition again, isn't it quite an enterprise to develop
understanding) still, when we consider also those phenomena that are not
experienced yet, such as the pre-existing object, it helps us to see
conditions. It is good to stress : study and be aware of what can be
experienced now. But also: there are many more phenomena that are not
experienced, but these can form up conditions for experience. The fact that
they are not experienced now does not make them less real.
Now the quotes:
=================================
H: Statement (a) is: The Buddhist perspective, and most explicitly so in
> Abhidhamma, doesn't countenance objects existing independently of experience.
The answer is merely that the
> overwhelming thrust of Abhidhamma as I have so far encountered it is that of
> a detailed description of *experience*. It appears to be more of a
> phenomenology than an ontology. Nyanaponika Thera, for example, in his
> ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES, wrote: "The Abhidhamma system, however, is not concerned
> with an artificial abstract world of  'objects in themselves'. In so far as
> it deals with external facts at all, the respective concepts refer to the
> relation of those 'external facts' to the bondage or liberation of the human
> mind; or they are terms auxiliary to the tasks of the understanding and
> mental training connected with the work of liberation."  That certainly seems
> to express a phenomenological and pragmatist/utilitarian perspective.

N:The Abh. does not deal with abstractions, I agree. Here Nyanaponika seems
to think that external facts are the same as concepts. But see above re:
rupa as object. He mentions the goal of the study and that is right:
liberation from bondage.

H:       Here is another example of seeing Abhidhamma as a phenomenological
enterprise. The following is from the introduction (by U Rewata Dhamma and
Bhikkhu Bodhi) to a Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma:
***************
The Abhidhamma's attempt to comprehend the nature of reality, contrary to
that of classical science in the West, does not proceed from the standpoint
of a neutral observer looking outwards towards the external world. The
primary concern of the Abhidhamma is to understand the nature of experience,
and thus the reality on which it focuses is conscious reality, the world as
given in experience, comprising both knowledge and the known in the widest
sense. For this reason the philosophical enterprise of the Abhidhamma shades
off into a phenomenological psychology.
*************************
N: he wants to stress that the Abh is for practice by using the words
phenomenological psychology. I think that all such terms are loaded with
specific notions that may not entirely cover the meaning of the teaching.
You also said this in one of your posts. He uses them in order to make the
Dhamma understandable for the western reader, but, we have to be careful
here.

Just some of my personal ideas. I am glad you brought up these questions and
the lokasutta, it was good and enjoyable for me to consider all this.
As to Katavatthu: I quote again:

The Kathavatthu deals in the first chapter, no. 1, with the question  ²Is
> the person known in the sense of a real and ultimate object?² The Sakavadin
> (Theravada) and the Paravadin (those of other beliefs) debate about this.
> The commentary gives a definition of ³In the sense of a real and ultimate
> object²:
> <here real means that which is not to be apprehended as not fact, like
> magic, a mirage and the like; actual. ³Ultimate² means that which is not to
> be accepted as hearsay; highest sense...>
> 
N:  I find this last part: <not to be accepted as hearsay> very clear and an
> excellent reminder to verify whatever appears. Like pain: can we verify it,
> is it real, not imagination? It is there just for a moment, but very real.
> We do not doubt about it.
> 
----------------------------------------------
Howard:
     I share your liking of this last part. It gives a good sense for
'real'. The first part, however, is not to my liking. For example, see the
mirage-like terminology used in the Sutta Nipata (in the Uragga Sutta?),
and, 
elsewwher, especially see the Phena Sutta. All conditioned dhammas are like
foam, mirages, dreams - are hollow, fleeting phantoms.

N: I like the Phena Sutta, also what Num wrote about it. It stresses: no
core, no essence, no self. Now the first part of Katavatthu quote you do not
like: here is not a denial of the impermanence of realities (actualities),
it merely stresses: they are impermament but still very real, no nonsense,
not an imagination. The other texts of mirage you mention etc. stress : we
think of a person we find so important, but really, they are only fleeting
phenomena. To solve this contradiction, could it be that we should look at
what is stressed in a particular text?
Again, to speak with Num: just my own ideas.
With appreciation, 
Nina.  

 

 
13631 From: <> 
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 11:18pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Merit Making

 
  Jon, you wrote:
"To my way of thinking, it is more important to have a better
understanding of one's own citta than to concern ourselves with the
quality of others' kusala."

This reminds me of a long held doubt concerning the meaning of
"internally and externally" in the Satipatthana Sutta. The usual
explanation for contemplating the body, for example, externally is that
this means contemplating the body of another. This seems extremely
unlikely to me. I don't see what a monk is doing contemplating the body
of another in an empty hut. At the moment, I can think of two
alternative explanations: observing the body from 'outside', like a
mirror; or observing the body in space, similar to stage presence. Of
the two, I think I prefer the second just because mirroring oneself is a
little tricky and complicated. So observing the breath very closely
would be observing internally and observing the breath in the space of
this hut would be observing externally.

Do you, or anyone else, have any thoughts on this?

Larry

 
13632 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 7:55pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts and realities

 
  Hi, Jon -

In a message dated 6/2/02 2:48:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Jon writes:


> Howard
> 
> --- Howard wrote: 
> > Hi, Jon -
> ...
> [Howard:]
>        Well, it's hard for me to say exactly how I find the pragmatist -
> phenomenalist view helpful in understanding the Dhamma, but I will try. It
> provides me with a conceptual perspective for seeing the Dhamma in an
> integrated fashion, and it makes sense out of various parts of the
> teaching that I would find more difficult to grasp without it. It seems to
> fit well, and to make clear much that would not be clear to me. As an
> example, rebirth becomes change in realm of experience, rather like
> "changing channels", as opposed to somehow moving to a different
> externally existing physical place or realm. There is no problem of
> explaining how, without a transmigrating "soul", rebirth occurs - there is
> no need to come up with some external physical mechanism for one's kamma
> to induce a physical rebirth, because the physical is just a mode of
> experience, and rebirth is just a switching to a new channel of
> experience, the switch occurring, of course, only when the conditions for
> it are in place. Mentality and materiality hang together, being merely
> differing modes of experience. A constant stream of
> citta-cetasika-arramana events, the flow of experience: that is the world.
> That is "The All".
> 
> Jon:
> Thanks for explaining this, Howard.  I do appreciate that you feel your
> understanding of certain aspects of the dhamma has been helped by your
> interest in phenomenalism.
> 
> Of course, it's not phenomenalism as such that helps make sense of the
> dhamma for you, but your predisposition towards the views and concepts
> that underlie the dhamma (and phenomenalism).

---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I think it's a bit of each, but I do not at ALL dismiss your point 
about my predisposition. Everyone of us filters our experience through our 
predispositions - through a glass, darkly ;-), and it is important not to 
lose sight of our own blinders.
---------------------------------------------------

> 
> I suppose I would just like to sound a note of caution, that when it comes
> to other aspects of the teachings, having this particular perspective may
> predispose you towards a view that is not in fact in accord with the
> teachings, and then it wouldn't be such a help.  But I'm sure you're
> already alert to this possibility.
> 
------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Yes, I have, but I very much appreciate your putting some emphasis on 
it. We cannot be reminded too often of what is really important.
-----------------------------------------------

> 
> Jon
> 
> 
========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13633 From: Lucy   
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 0:25am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Antidotes to lobha

 
  Hello Jon

Long time, long ago (we were talking about expedient means) you wrote:

> I'm sure we would all like to have less kilesa (or at least less of the
kind of
> kilesa that we recognise as such).  But while less kilesa does indeed
result from
> the development of the path, this doesn't mean that the development of
the path is
> 'tied' in any sense to having less kilesa in our lives now.
>
> From my reading, the
> path is developed if there is awareness of a presently arising reality,
whatever
> that reality may be, and it doesn't matter whether it is kusala or
akusala, nama or
> rupa, internal or eternal.  The reduction of the kilesa is something that
occurs as
> a natural consequence of the development of awareness and the ensuing
understanding,
> but should not be the focus of that development.
>
> Having the objective of having less kilesa in our life now is, I believe,
to fall
> into the trap of expectations.  It inevitably inclines us to a form of
practice that
> involves suppression in one form or another.

Not sure I follow your argument correctly. I understand that the awareness
+ understanding itself is the development of the path and that the object
of that awareness could be of just about anything - even a murder..
presumably. But doesn't that  awareness + understanding influence what a
coming set of actions or behaviour is going to be? Suppose you become aware
of strong lobha towards an object - do you leave things there ? Then the
next time the object appears, the same strong lobha crops up and you're
again snared. Isn't it that when the understanding arises one becomes
determined to be free from strong lobha sometime? I'm oversimplifying,
things are rarely so simple  - all seems to be a lot more indirect and many
more factors are involved so there's rarely a 1 - 1 relation. The point is,
though, that the understanding leads to some change of behaviour (whether
we do this knowingly and willingly or not !) - In Mahayana, aspiration is
given a lot of emphasis, as you know, so I try to keep it at the front of
my brain a much as possible - but I don't think aspiration is at all
lacking in Theravada, only that there is less fuss made of it : )

>
> It's training only if it's kusala and, in particular, if it's right view
:-).
>

Yes, agree there. By offering anything with a view  to rebirth in a deva
realm (or even with the aim of liberation !), one is up for a great
disappointment some time soon. But there is the training that happens
little by little and through which one ends up doing things (like offering)
or avoiding doing things just for the joy of it.  Not for "storing merit"
or even for mind purification - but because it feels the only way there is.
For instance, none of us would go out with a gun to kill ducks - it's
unthinkable, isn't it? Another example, if someone in need comes to ask us
for food we would immediately and without any second thought share our
meal, or give it all away - not to do so would also be unthinkable.... ....
.... But this stage hasn't arrived out of nothing and it isn't common to
all humans, I think it is the result of a long process of training and
purification - which isn't "mine" but manifests as this "me" for the time
being.  And one can project this to those habits that appear in citta now
(and that's all they are, bad habits!) and take up training in some way
with the idea of freeing citta from them ... because the idea of freeing
citta from them feels like the only way to go !

Not sure I'm being clear - What I try to say is that the awareness leads to
understanding, the understanding leads to aspiration + determination (where
"effort" is probably involved) and, eventually, change of a trend of
behaviour patterns (a change of MIND !!!). This isn't me or mine, but it's
ongoing and has been forever.  Perhaps this is what you're saying too, but
you make it sound too easy !  : (

>
> > Glad you enjoyed the holiday - ours is on Monday.
> >

Ah, that was May Day- next Monday (and Tuesday!!!)  is the Queen's holiday

Best wishes
Lucy

 
 
13634 From: Lucy   
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 0:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  Dear Robert

Thanks! There's a lot to reflect in what you write ...and breed further
questions. Is the "heart base" something similar to the senses' base ?  So
it would be even "smaller" than the first fertilised egg cell ?

I can see now that even from a biological viewpoint some of my questions
were based on flawed assumptions. Taking up rupa only needs one cell  for
humans and animals (won't try to think what it's like for the spontaneously
arisen ones like devas or hell beings!). And then rupa just carries on from
there. Presumably, developing under the influence of citta (or of the kamma
passing from citta to citta) -  as once appropriated, rupa becomes a "body"
and interacts with all the other khandha.

It's still amazing though that the whole of one's environment (whether
human or hell being) is determined by that one patisandhi-citta.
Frightening to think that my reactions in "near-misses" would have given
rise to either dung beetles or hell beings ---  : ( --- Seriously now, the
way many of the Tibetan schools train for death makes a lot of sense. One
of the meditations in my Tibetan days was a long detailed series of step by
step "rehearsals" of the death process.

A side question: why is it that the animal and human realms are so close? I
know the biological answer, but that's not what I'm looking for...Isn't it
strange that we can interact with animals and share the same plane of
existence (largely) but not with the other forms of samsaric being ?
(thanks for the link on cat cloning. Will look it up next)

About Big Bangs etc. you write:
> In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha says "there comes a time,
> bhikkhus when after a long period this world contracts. While the
> world is contracting (disintergrating) beings for the most part are
> born in the abhassara brahma world there they dwell mind made
> feeding on rature..and they continue thus for a long time..But
> sooner or alter there comes a time when this world begins to expand
> once again. When the world begins to expand an empty palace of
> brahma appears.Then a certain being, due to exhaustion of his
> lifespan or merit arise there....."
> I could add more if you like.

Thanks for the pointer. It's quite amazing.  Yes please, add more when you
can. The abhassara brahma world sounds like a wonderful holiday - is it
still subject to dukha ? Presumably it is because it is still samsara...Oh,
so many questions!

Best wishes
Lucy

 
13635 From: Howard 
Date: Sun Jun 2, 2002 8:58pm
Subject: Re: [dsg]lokasutta and phenomenology

 
  Hi, Nina -

       I intend to respond to your post, but I don't have the time to do it 
justice now. In a few days we're leaving to drive from home (East coast of 
U.S.) to the mid-west (Chicago area), to return on the 14th. I have little 
time now, and I'm not sure how much internet access I'll have while away. But 
at the least, I'll write when I return. (If it slips my mind, please don't 
hesitate to jog my memory! ;-)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13636 From: manji   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 1:12am
Subject: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)

 
  Larry,

It seems your email was tending in the direction of the four foundations of
mindfulness, regarding the mindfulness on body. This response may seem a bit
fractured, but it is a drawing together of abhidhamma, suttas, vinaya, and
experience.

This is from Chachakka sutta:

"'The six internal media should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to
what was it said? The eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the
tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. 'The six internal
media should be known.' Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it
said. This is the first sextet.

"'The six external media should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to
what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the
flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six
external media should be known.' Thus it was said. And in reference to this
was it said. This is the second sextet.

Knowing this, you can read Dhatu-vibhanga sutta, this is a part...:

"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal
or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within
oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body
hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys,
heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines,
contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself,
that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth
property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property
are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present
with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my
self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right
discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the
earth property fade from the mind.

The Dhatu-vibhanga sutta goes on to the other dhatu of liquid, fire, wind,
and space. Knowing this "internal", what is external?

External is the vision of something seen,
External is the sound of something heard,
External is the smell of something smelled,
External is the taste of something tasted,
External is the tactile-sensation of something felt,
External is the idea of something thought.

Now this/that something seen, something heard, something smelled, something
tasted, something felt, something thought; these, I do believe, are
concepts. :) This vision, this sound, this smell, this taste, this
sensation, this idea... need not say more about rupa.

Here is only one line from Maha-nidana sutta, the others are just as
important:

"Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the
second emancipation.

It can hardly be emphasized enough, "one becomes disenchanted with the earth
property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.". I will put the
end of the Chachakka sutta here:

=============
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows
disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with
consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye, disenchanted
with feeling, disenchanted with craving.

"He grows disenchanted with the ear...

"He grows disenchanted with the nose...

"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...

"He grows disenchanted with the body...

"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas,
disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact
at the intellect, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving.
Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully
released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He
discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There
is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his
words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of 60 monks,
through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from
fermentation/effluents.

=============

Gate... gate... paragate... parasamgate... bodhi! svaha! :)

-manji-

ps: Majjhima Nikaya: Uddessa-viphanga sutta 138 is also a good sutta on
external/internal.

----- Original Message -----
From: <<>>
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Merit Making


> Jon, you wrote:
> "To my way of thinking, it is more important to have a better
> understanding of one's own citta than to concern ourselves with the
> quality of others' kusala."
>
> This reminds me of a long held doubt concerning the meaning of
> "internally and externally" in the Satipatthana Sutta. The usual
> explanation for contemplating the body, for example, externally is that
> this means contemplating the body of another. This seems extremely
> unlikely to me. I don't see what a monk is doing contemplating the body
> of another in an empty hut. At the moment, I can think of two
> alternative explanations: observing the body from 'outside', like a
> mirror; or observing the body in space, similar to stage presence. Of
> the two, I think I prefer the second just because mirroring oneself is a
> little tricky and complicated. So observing the breath very closely
> would be observing internally and observing the breath in the space of
> this hut would be observing externally.
>
> Do you, or anyone else, have any thoughts on this?
>
> Larry

 
13637 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 5:09am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  ---  "Lucy"  wrote:
> Dear Robert
> 
> Thanks! There's a lot to reflect in what you write ...and breed 
further
> questions. Is the "heart base" something similar to the senses' 
base ?  So
> it would be even "smaller" than the first fertilised egg cell ?
_______
dear Lucy,
Yes, that is right. Th heart base is so subtle that I think science 
can never uncover it; it is conditioned only by kamma hence its 
great subtlety. But science can get something about the matter that 
heartbase rests on - the blood inside the heart- which in the 
fertilised egg is so tiny. You can read more about heart base at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts
go to heart and there are a few posts.
> 
> I can see now that even from a biological viewpoint some of my 
questions
> were based on flawed assumptions. Taking up rupa only needs one 
cell  for
> humans and animals (won't try to think what it's like for the 
spontaneously
> arisen ones like devas or hell beings!). And then rupa just 
carries on from
> there. Presumably, developing under the influence of citta (or of 
the kamma
> passing from citta to citta) -  as once appropriated, rupa becomes 
a "body"
> and interacts with all the other khandha.

_
That's pretty much it.
-------------
> 
> It's still amazing though that the whole of one's environment 
(whether
> human or hell being) is determined by that one patisandhi-citta.
> Frightening to think that my reactions in "near-misses" would have 
given
> rise to either dung beetles or hell beings ---  : ( --- Seriously 
now, the
> way many of the Tibetan schools train for death makes a lot of 
sense. One
> of the meditations in my Tibetan days was a long detailed series 
of step by
> step "rehearsals" of the death process.
------

We train for death too in theravada: any aspect of kusala is 
preparation. And satipatthana is the best of all because it is 
detaching from the idea of self. There was a monk who was devoted to 
satipatthana who was walking contemplating (read: direct awareness) 
who died suddenly and was reborn as a deva. He didn't realise he was 
in the deva world, and refused to talk to his new extremly beautiful 
deva wives until they put a mirror in front of him whereby he found 
he was now in the deva world. Instead of being happy  he got 
agitated and went to find the Buddha: he listened more and became a 
sotapanna on that very day (or thereabouts)

> 
> A side question: why is it that the animal and human realms are so 
close? I
> know the biological answer, but that's not what I'm looking 
for...Isn't it
> strange that we can interact with animals and share the same plane 
of
> existence (largely) but not with the other forms of samsaric 
being ?
> (thanks for the link on cat cloning. Will look it up next)
-----------
 It is just the way it is.
____________



> 
> About Big Bangs etc. you write:
> > In the Brahmajala sutta the Buddha says "there comes a time,
> > bhikkhus when after a long period this world contracts. While the
> > world is contracting (disintergrating) beings for the most part 
are
> > born in the abhassara brahma world there they dwell mind made
> > feeding on rature..and they continue thus for a long time..But
> > sooner or alter there comes a time when this world begins to 
expand
> > once again. When the world begins to expand an empty palace of
> > brahma appears.Then a certain being, due to exhaustion of his
> > lifespan or merit arise there....."
> > I could add more if you like.
> 
> Thanks for the pointer. It's quite amazing.  Yes please, add more 
when you
> can. The abhassara brahma world sounds like a wonderful holiday - 
is it
> still subject to dukha ? Presumably it is because it is still 
samsara...Oh,
> so many questions!
_____________
Oh yes, that world is still dukkha, just as much as avici hell. 
There is still the relentless arise and fall of phenomena, the 
khandas. However, as those phenomena are such that there are none 
that are unpleasant at all, and most that are so, so pleasant... so 
relentlessly pleasant, it wouldn't be wrong to say it was a holiday 
(a  very long one) before returning to more problematic lives in 
samsara.  The texts say the reason most beings are reborn there is 
that all of us have developed jhana (the necessary kamma) in many 
lives and one of these kammas comes to the fore at this time. Also 
before the universe dies there are  warnings for a long time from 
devas and the like and so most beings become agitated and take up 
the development of good deeds culminating in jhana, as well. 
The tika notes that most but not all beings at the end of the aeon 
are born here: those with extreme wrong view (who deny kamma and its 
result) :  may still be born in the other side of the universe(or 
maybe another universe) which apparently has a different cycle, in a 
lower world.
best
robert

> 
> Best wishes
> Lucy

 
13638 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 7:44am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  Lucy, I hope you aren't asking me all those questions. I don't have a
clue. I took this chapter to be focused on the uncertainty of the next
life and the limits of meritorious activity. The outlook seemed pretty
grim to me. I guess we could say it is the truth of dukkha.

Larry

 
13639 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 8:42am
Subject: Re: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)

 
  Hi Manji, thanks for all the great quotes. Dispassion, disillusionment,
and the undesirability of all and everything is certainly the point.
What would you say is observing the breath internally and what is
observing the breath externally? The same question for vedana, citta,
and dhamma.

I've recently been thinking about abiding in emptyness as a satipatthana
bhavana in that the focus on breath, for example, is empty of all else. 

One other point, I don't think mindfulness of breath is concerned with
dispassion for the breath, but rather dispassion toward any
'interruptions'.

These are kind of random scattered thoughts that don't necessarily fit
together; just things I've been thinking about.

What about you? Any thoughts on these things?

Larry

 
13640 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 1:13pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Satipatthana - realisation of the 3 characteristics

 
  Hi Jon.
Thanks for your clarifications below.  Good thoughts, and appreciated.

Robert Ep

========

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Rob Ep
> 
> You question whether in fact seeing the ti-lakkhana (3 characteristics),
> and particularly anatta, in the arising object can be anything more than a
> kind of conceptual understanding. 
> 
> I think it's clear from the texts that the realisation of these attributes
> is meant to be a direct (i.e., non-conceptual) one.  The texts also
> indicate that this realisation requires a relatively highly developed
> level of direct knowledge of dhammas to be significant.  The difficulty of
> experiencing dhammas to the degree that the characteristic of anatta can
> be perceived is mentioned in the passage from the 'Dispeller of Delusion'
> quoted below.
> 
> From our studies, we know that in fact that these characteristics are not
> truly known until enlightenment is attained.  Penetration of the 3
> characterises is one of the indicators of magga citta.
> 
> I agree that the reflection on something one has just experienced can only
> ever bring observations that are 'thought-related and deductively drawn'. 
> In fact, I would say any such 'understanding' should correctly be viewed
> as a kind of thinking, nothing special, which may or may not be kusala. 
> 
> Only the understanding that comes from direct knowledge can give the
> perception of the ti-lakkhana *in* the object.  It is the Buddha's
> teaching that this can be realised each person for themselves, but no
> doubt it needs a lot of patience and careful study to be possible to
> verify this.
> 
> Jon
> 
> From Sammohavinodani, commentary to the Vibhanga -- 'Dispeller of
> Delusion', Pali Text Society, p. 59 & 60:
> 
> "The characteristic of no-self is unobvious, dark, unclear, difficult to
> penetrate, difficult to illustrate, difficult to make known.  The
> characteristics of impermanence and dukkha are made known with or without
> the arising of the Tathagathas.  The characteristic of no-self … is only
> made known on the arising of the enlightened ones. 
> …
> "The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in
> mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements
> (nanadhatuvinbbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness.... But
> when ... resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by
> resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of anatta appears
> in accordance with its true essential nature."
> 
>  --- Robert Epstein  wrote: 
> > Hi Jon.
> > Comments below.
> ...
> > ... I have a hard time seeing the discernment of anatta,
> > anicca and dukkha in the arising object as being a non-conceptual
> > understanding. 
> > I mean, it is a realization that these qualities exist in the object,
> not
> > something that can be directly perceived.  Where does 'anatta' live in a
> > rupa or
> > nama in the moment?  Anatta is the absence of something, it cannot be
> > perceived as
> > a direct quality, same thing for anicca.  It is only upon reflection on
> > the
> > momentary nature one has experienced, immediately afterwards perhaps,
> > that one can
> > deduce anatta or anicca as a quality of the object.  It seems to me to
> > be a very
> > direct but thought-related insight.  If I am used to assuming that an
> > object has a
> > fixed and substantial nature, and I suddenly see with clear discernment
> > that it
> > lasts only a moment and then changes into something else, then I can
> > draw the
> > conclusion; 'there is no fixed entity here [anatta], and there is no
> > permanent
> > reality but only a very fleeting one [anicca].  Buddha seems to describe
> > this kind
> > of insight as a kind of statement in many, many suttas, and it seems to
> > me that
> > this is an insight, an understanding, that is deductively drawn from a
> > direct
> > discernment, rather than being directly discerned itself.
> > 
> > If you disagree with this, please explain how anatta or anicca can be
> > perceived
> > through a sense-door.  If it is a nama, then it is a thought *about* a
> > rupa that
> > has just been perceived and that has passed.  And this is different than
> > perceiving anatta, anicca and dukkha *in* the object in the moment.
> > 
> > The reason I am emphasizing this, is that I think the role of useful
> > concepts may
> > be a very strong one, when they are based on direct discernment.



 
13641 From: manji   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 1:39pm
Subject: Re: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)

 
  I think there are distinctions in mindfulness...

Mindfulness of the recollection of the breath.
Mindfulness of that which is recollected as the breath.

Perhaps the former is internal and the latter is external.

Perhaps what really matters is remaining on "that which is recollected as
the breath" instead of the mere recollection, instead of the mere concept
arising from recollection. In this way, the breath is dependent, therefore
it is empty. In concentration or meditation, the mind may drift onto the
concept of the breath, or may drift onto something else not recollected as
the breath leading onto the mind drifting to the concept of something else
and then so on and so on (all this mental fermentation... confusing eh?).

If the mind remains fixed upon "that which is recollected as breath" this is
mindfulness of the breath. In this, there is dispassion (alobha) along with
mindfulness. Dispassion is simply is the absence of attachment. Knowing the
difference between concepts and reality is to know sanna...

This can be so of vedana, of citta, of all dhamma.

Now with regard to sati (mindfulness)...

** Nina had quoted in Cetasikas (pg 245):

"The Atthasåliní then gives another definition of mindfulness:

"'. Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic,
unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the
object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sanna) or application in
mindfulness as regards the body, etc. , as approximate cause. It should be
regarded as a door-post from being firmly established in the object, and as
a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses.

** From Indriya-vibhanga Sutta:

"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a
disciple of the noble ones, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering &
able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. He remains
focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting
aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on
feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities
in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of
mindfulness.

And why mindfulness? It makes sanna's marking and recollection well known
because mindfulness makes sanna firm. And why know sanna? This is where the
mind marks and recollects "I am this" and "I am not this.".

Sanna is not self, "this I am not". ;)

Go.... go...

-manji-

----- Original Message -----
From: <<>>
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)


> Hi Manji, thanks for all the great quotes. Dispassion, disillusionment,
> and the undesirability of all and everything is certainly the point.
> What would you say is observing the breath internally and what is
> observing the breath externally? The same question for vedana, citta,
> and dhamma.
>
> I've recently been thinking about abiding in emptyness as a satipatthana
> bhavana in that the focus on breath, for example, is empty of all else.
>
> One other point, I don't think mindfulness of breath is concerned with
> dispassion for the breath, but rather dispassion toward any
> 'interruptions'.
>
> These are kind of random scattered thoughts that don't necessarily fit
> together; just things I've been thinking about.
>
> What about you? Any thoughts on these things?
>
> Larry
>
>

 
13642 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 2:43pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Hi Victor,

--- yuzhonghao  wrote:
> See
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
> 
> Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.

I’ve just followed your first reference which of course refers to the
discussion between King pasenadi and Queen Mallika about the realisation
of the strong attachment to self.

The Buddha says:

“Searching all directions
with one's awareness,
one finds no one dearer
than oneself.
In the same way, others
are fiercely dear to themselves.
So one should not hurt others
if one loves oneself.”
*****
In other words, in all the world, the greatest clinging is to *ourselves*.
Does this mean the purpose of the Dhamma is to encourage this clinging? Of
course not. The purpose is to understand that it is this very clinging (to
the khandhas that make up what we take for self) that leads to suffering
and should be eradicated. As we find the *self* dear, so others do too.
Therefore, we should treat others well.

We’ve discussed the commentary to this sutta before, Victor, so I won’t
repeat it;-)

On the question you often raise about whether there is a self outside the
khandhas, I’d like to repeat the following verses from Visuddhimagga, ch
19:
.....

“Therefore have the ancients said,
"No doer is there does the deed,
Nor is there one who feels the fruit;
Constituent parts alone roll on;
This view alone is orthodox.
"And thus the deed, and thus the fruit
Roll on and on, each from its cause;
As of the round of tree and seed,
No one can tell when they began.
"Nor is the time to be perceived
In future births when they shall cease.
The heretics perceive not this,
And fail of mastery o'er themselves.
"'An Ego,' say they, 'doth exist,
Eternal, or that soon will cease;'
Thus two-and-sixty heresies
They 'mongst themselves discordant hold.
"Bound in the bonds of heresy,
By passion's flood they're borne along;
And borne along by passion's flood,
From misery find they no release.
"If once these facts he but perceive,
A priest whose faith on Buddha rests,
The subtile, deep, and self-devoid
Dependence then will penetrate.
"Not in its fruit is found the deed,
Nor in the deed finds one the fruit;
Of each the other is devoid,
Yet there's no fruit without the deed.
"Just as no store of fire is found
In jewel, cow-dung, or the sun,
Nor separate from these exists,
Yet short of fuel no fire is known;
"Even so we ne'er within the deed
Can retribution's fruit descry,
Nor yet in any place without;
Nor can in fruit the deed be found.
"Deeds separate from their fruits exist,
And fruits are separate from the deeds:
But consequent upon the deed
The fruit doth into being come.
"No god of heaven or Brahma-world
Doth cause the endless round of birth;
Constituent parts alone roll on,
From cause and from material sprung." “
*****
Best wishes,

Sarah
======



 
13643 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 2:44pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'no control', Reply to Rob E.(Booklet)

 
  Dear Rob Ep,

Like Howard, I need to ‘wind down’ this week and give priority to my
classes and preparations for our trip to Sri Lanka. However, I would like
to show my appreciation for your discussions with Sukin and look forward
to plenty more. I’m very impressed by your friendly and helpful exchange
and the mutual respect of different viewpoints shown.

On the question of ‘practice’ and favourable activities, I’d just like to
add 3 quotes which I came across yesterday. The first two are from the
same letters of Nina’s that I quoted from to Christine on 'Treasure' and
the last one repeats some of Jon’s comments to you that I find worth
repeating.

(Alan Weller is a lurking member <sigh> and an old school friend of mine
and he runs Zolag website which I recently noticed has a helpful Q&A
section and Beginners’ section):
http://www.zolag.co.uk/

-------------------- 
1."Alan Weller wrote a letter to me about this subject which I will quote:


I used to think that I should study the Dhamma and be alone rather than
going out with friends. When we say this it seems as if there is no self
indulgence when we do not go to the movies whereas in actual fact
defilements are around all the time. The stories on the screen are no
different from the stories in our everyday life. We have pleasant feeling
or unpleasant feeling conditioned by what we see, no matter whether we are
at the movies or not. All situations are the same in the sense that they
consist of realities which are dukkha, anicca and anatta. Pleasant feeling
has its own characteristic which can be understood, no matter where we
are. We cannot force kusala by listening more to the Dhamma. Akusala is
conditioned by accumulation, we have to accept, it as it is. By listening
to the Dhamma and considering it there are conditions for the development
of kusala, slowly and gradually. We should follow our own accumulations
wisely, sincerely, understanding them as they really are. I have
accumulations to go to the movies, watch T.V. and read magazines. The
interest in these is a conditioned reality which can be known. Also the
interest in Dhamma is conditioned. I cannot force myself to have more
interest in the Dhamma. I understand the value of reading the scriptures
and considering the Dhamma and that is a condition for studying it. We
cannot read all day every day.  Therefore it is best to live our life
naturally according to our own accumulation and to learn to apply Dhamma
in any situation.”
***** 
 2.Khun Sujin:  One understands that there is no permanent being. Sound
arises and falls away, it does not belong to anyone. When people speak the
sound is conditioned by the namakkhandhas and these also fall away. There
is only the thinking of a story about people and things all the time. It
is the same as when we watch T.V., read the newspaper or dream about
things. What is seen is only visible object. When there is patience one is
not disturbed by any circumstances. 
*****
3. From Jon’s post, no 11218:

“No doubt the idea of 'concentrated and repeated attention to the moment
with the least amount of distraction', as mentioned in you post, seems
intuitively self-evident, but to my knowledge nowhere in the texts are the
factors of volitional (forced?) effort and a quiet place given as
prerequisites, in the sense of *must do’s, must have’s*, for the
development of awareness and insight into presently arising realities.

When you think about it, there is an inherent inconsistency in the idea of
attention that is *to the moment* and yet that requires that moment to be
*with the least amount of distraction*. Surely ‘the moment’ is simply the
moment, with or without perceived distractions. 

Actually, what you refer to as distractions are essentially and ultimately
the same dhammas that we seek to have awareness of and insight into. 
Seeing them as distractions simply conceptualises them, and takes us
further away from the present moment. It is really a kind of
'reification' in the abstract.

At one level we can accept that it is only the present moment that has any
significance as regards awareness of and insight into dhammas. The fact
that we nevertheless persist in thinking in terms of present moments other
than the *present* present moment (!) suggests that we have only a
superficial appreciation of this. Seeing in ourselves the tendency to shy
away from understanding the presently appearing reality, on whatever
pretext, can be the first step in exposing normally unrecognised wrong
view.”
*****

Best wishes, 

Sarah
=========




 
13644 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 3:14pm
Subject: Unusual things said by children.....

 
  Dear Howard & Dan,

  --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Dan -
> 
>        Talking about unusual things said by children,

I meant to add a comment made recently by an 8 year old student of mine
(half French, half Vietnamese):

Me: How was your birthday and birthday party last week?
Child:  I don’t think birthdays are so great.....
Me: Why not? Didn’t you receive any nice presents?
Child: Well, birthdays just take you one year closer to death. Also, I
think giving presents is more fun.
.....

I reported the comments to his mother (non-Buddhist, non-other ist) and
she told me recently she asked the child if he’d like to visit her friend
and new baby in hospital. The child replied “Does the baby realize that
he’s just born to die.” She also told me that he always tells her not to
buy any more toys for him, but to buy them for some poor children instead.
*****
I’ve had one or two further conversations about birth and death with this
child and he’s even written an essay (his choice) on ‘Dying’. He’s a very
happy and kind child and likes to help other children win prizes. His
older sister and both parents don’t share his interests or values at all,
but he’s perfectly confident about them, even when other children laugh at
him.

Sarah
=====


, your writing what
> your 
> brilliant six-year old said reminded of something my older son said to
> us 
> when he was 3 to 4 years old. We were riding in the car, and he casually
> said 
> "I used to be an Indian" (meaning a Native American). My wife and I
> smiled to 
> each other (how cute we thought he was), and we played along, saying
> "Oh, 
> yes? When were you an Indian?". "Before I was born" was the reply!
> 
> With metta,
> Howard



 
13645 From: Sarah   
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 3:56pm
Subject: Trips

 
  Hi Howard,

 --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Nina -
> 
>        I intend to respond to your post, but I don't have the time to do
> it 
> justice now. In a few days we're leaving to drive from home (East coast
> of 
> U.S.) to the mid-west (Chicago area), to return on the 14th. 
.....
That sounds like a lot of driving (but a change from the train;-)). I hope
you and your wife have a great trip and break. You'll have plenty of
opportunities for wise reflection and discussion I expect. 

We'll all look forward to your return if you don't have the chance to
check in while you're away. I'll look f/w to your continued discussion
with Nina in due course. 

Actually, quite a few of us will be away next week too (Sukin, Chris, Jon
& myself included), so I hope a few lurkers and semi-lurkers may call in
to assist (or challenge;-)) the other 'regulars'. 

Sarah
======







 
13646 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Unusual things said by children.....

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 6/3/02 3:14:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah writes:


> Dear Howard & Dan,
> 
>   --- Howard wrote: > Hi again, Dan -
> > 
> >        Talking about unusual things said by children,
> 
> I meant to add a comment made recently by an 8 year old student of mine
> (half French, half Vietnamese):
> 
> Me: How was your birthday and birthday party last week?
> Child:  I don’t think birthdays are so great.....
> Me: Why not? Didn’t you receive any nice presents?
> Child: Well, birthdays just take you one year closer to death. Also, I
> think giving presents is more fun.
> .....
> 
> I reported the comments to his mother (non-Buddhist, non-other ist) and
> she told me recently she asked the child if he’d like to visit her friend
> and new baby in hospital. The child replied “Does the baby realize that
> he’s just born to die.� She also told me that he always tells her not to
> buy any more toys for him, but to buy them for some poor children instead.
> *****
> I’ve had one or two further conversations about birth and death with this
> child and he’s even written an essay (his choice) on ‘Dying’. He’s a very
> happy and kind child and likes to help other children win prizes. His
> older sister and both parents don’t share his interests or values at all,
> but he’s perfectly confident about them, even when other children laugh at
> him.
> 
> Sarah
> 
================================
       What a fascinating child. Certainly precocious, and possibly a 
Buddhist in a previous life. However, there is also the remote possibility, 
it seems to me, that despite being a "happy" child, he *may* have an 
obsessive fascination with death that should be of concern. I think this 
possibility, though remote, is serious enough to warrant serious 
consideration.

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13647 From: Howard 
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 5:47pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Trips

 
  Hi, Sarah -

In a message dated 6/3/02 3:56:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Sarah writes:


> 
> Hi Howard,
> 
> --- Howard wrote: > Hi, Nina -
> > 
> >        I intend to respond to your post, but I don't have the time to do
> > it 
> > justice now. In a few days we're leaving to drive from home (East coast
> > of 
> > U.S.) to the mid-west (Chicago area), to return on the 14th. 
> .....
> That sounds like a lot of driving (but a change from the train;-)).
> 
----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       The drive is not terrible. My younger son and his girlfriend are going 
with us, and so it will be an enjoyable trip. We're pretty much through with 
using trains! AMTRAK is no fun at all! (Also, these days, plane travel in the 
U.S. is not an easy matter.)
-----------------------------------------------------
   I hope> 
> you and your wife have a great trip and break. You'll have plenty of
> opportunities for wise reflection and discussion I expect. 
> 
> We'll all look forward to your return if you don't have the chance to
> check in while you're away. I'll look f/w to your continued discussion
> with Nina in due course. 
> 
----------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thanks, Sarah.
---------------------------------------------

> 
> Actually, quite a few of us will be away next week too (Sukin, Chris, Jon
> & myself included), so I hope a few lurkers and semi-lurkers may call in
> to assist (or challenge;-)) the other 'regulars'. 
> 
> Sarah
> 
=========================
Have a wonderful trip next week, Sarah - you and all your travelling 
companions.

With metta,
Howard


/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13648 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 1:03am
Subject: Re: [dsg] offerings and defilements

 
  Dear Lucy, Sarah, Rob K and all,
Several posts with such good exhortations and reminders.
First Lucy's post: it is very difficult to know exactly when the citta is
kusala and when akusala. Difficult for everybody, since we accumulated
ignorance. When we offer something to the Triple Gem it is a true offering
when the citta is kusala, pure, and we do not expect something pleasant for
ourselves, such as more enjoyment. Enjoyment may arise spontaneously, and it
can arise after having offered with a pure mind, but what is this enjoyment,
finding things beautiful? As Kom said, and I am so glad he often reminds us,
most of the time akusala cittas arise. We are such a mixture, aren't we?
So long as we are ignorant, we have a touch of paranoia, not just you. It is
essential to find out more about the different types of citta, even if it is
theory for the moment; it will help us to become less deluded. As soon as
you like something, or you enjoy beauty, it is the time to find out: is
there attachment to the object that is experienced? Attachment is not always
wanting to have something, it can be just enjoyment of something, liking
something. I do not say that you necessarily have it when you offer, but it
is beneficial to find out more about the different cittas, like the Buddha
taught. Then your offering can be an offering with respect to his teaching,
because you apply his teaching.

op 10-06-2002 11:25 schreef Lucy op 

> Thank you for bringing up the offering of sounds. This is one of my favs -
> although, as you say, it is sometimes difficult to remember straight away
> because music has a way of captivating and engulfing the mind and it's not
> easy to remain mindful. But the offering of a beautiful sound to the Three
> Gems increases the joy of listening and this is an incentive to always
> offer. I notice that even if I've forgotten to offer, the thought of
> offering arises spontaneously soon as the music or sound (birds and
> gurgling water included) reaches a peak of exquisiteness.
> 
> I think the same goes for the scent of flowers or anything else that is
> beautiful. Offering makes things even more beautiful...

N: more about sounds, your favorite: I was listening to a tape made in
Bangkok and then came the sound of chanting. Lodewijk (my husband) said he
likes to hear this so much. We may be so impressed by chanting, but again,
is it lobha, attachment, or pure appreciation, with kusala citta? Kusala
citta and akusala citta arise very closely one after the other.
I liked Sarah's example of the offering of sound: her voice was hoarse after
teaching her students. Reminds me of A. Sujin: she is so patient using her
voice and then she loses almost her voice but she does not mind this. She
really gives her voice away for the sake of Dhamma,  great example. She also
said she does not mind tiredness, when we say we feel tired we are clinging
to self. (sorry Victor, but we can take this in the right sense).

Now Rob K's post: just like you, Robert, I can't hear enough reminders. So
often we do not even know conceit is present: "I have done this well, I have
written this very well." So treacherous, like enjoyment I mentioned to Lucy.
I like your last sentence:

<It is one of the things  I always get from Acharn Sujin - that the
Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for
accumulating: but easy to forget and get swept along in the current
of conceit and view and craving.>
I would like to read what Christine wrote (mentioned by Rob) for dl about
dosa. 

Now Sarah's post: there are quotes from what I wrote, but, they are A.
Sujin's thoughts, and thus, I was so glad to be reminded again. It is the
application that fails again and again. I keep on forgetting about the
dustrag. I like praise and loathe blame. Sarah mentioned Larry's offering of
assistance (I like the word offering here) to Daiwen, posting from ADL 5,
and it happened that on the same day I had heard adverse comments (Larry did
not know this), and thus it helped me too:
<Other
people's behaviour and our reactions to it are conditioned phenonomena
which do not stay. At the moment we are thinking about these phenomena,
they have already fallen away.>
We have to be truthful, and be aware of akusala. Once Jon said: no
selection, do not think that akusala is less worthy as object of awareness.
It can happen that we want to help or give something and the response is
unexpectedly most unpleasant, that the receiver is even uttering false
accusations or reviling. I quote from A. Sujin's book on the paramis on
giving, starting with a quote from the Commentary:

<He does not give because he desires gain, honour or fame, or because he
expects something in return, or out of expectation of some fruit other than
the supreme enlightenment (in the case of the Bodhisatta). He does not give
detesting the gift or those who ask. He does not give a discarded object as
a gift, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and abuse him.

Each time we give, we should carefully investigate our citta. The citta
should truly be gentle and tender. We should not have contempt for the
people who ask for something or dislike the things we give; we should not
give discarded objects, not even to unrestrained beggars who revile and
abuse us. 
Can we follow this up? The person who receives a gift may be annoyed, or
sometimes his behaviour may be most impolite. But still the citta of the
person who gives can be gentle and tender. He can give without dislike of
the receiver. It may happen that the receiver is unrestrained in his
behaviour, that his conduct is improper, or that he reviles the person who
gives; he may be angry, he may say that the other person gives too little,
or that he does not want to have the things that are given. However, inspite
of this, the citta of the giver should be steadfast in kusala.>

Such things happen in daily life, and we can be reminded that it is
necessary to begin to investigate nama and rupa that present themselves one
at a time through six doors. We may not find this very interesting, we may
not see that this leads to the goal: giving up of the self, but it does. It
is a gradual way. 
Best wishes from Nina.



 
13649 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 1:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Sarah,

See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-052.html



Reply in context.



---  Sarah  wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> --- yuzhonghao  wrote:
> > See
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
> > 
> > Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.
> 
> I've just followed your first reference which of course refers to 
the
> discussion between King pasenadi and Queen Mallika about the 
realisation
> of the strong attachment to self.
> 
> The Buddha says:
> 
> "Searching all directions
> with one's awareness,
> one finds no one dearer
> than oneself.
> In the same way, others
> are fiercely dear to themselves.
> So one should not hurt others
> if one loves oneself."
> *****
> In other words, in all the world, the greatest clinging is to 
*ourselves*.




How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest clinging is 
to ourselves?



See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html
again.



> Does this mean the purpose of the Dhamma is to encourage this 
clinging? 



See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
again.



Of
> course not. The purpose is to understand that it is this very 
clinging (to
> the khandhas that make up what we take for self) that leads to 
suffering
> and should be eradicated. 





Let me know if this reasoning make sense: 

1. This very clinging is clinging to the aggregates.  

2. The aggregates make up what we take for self.

3. Thus this clinging is clinging to self.





> As we find the *self* dear, so others do too.
> Therefore, we should treat others well.





Does * symbol around the words "ourselves" and "self" signify 
anything special?  If yes, what does it signify?






> On the question you often raise about whether there is a self 
outside the
> khandhas, 



See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html



Regards,
Victor

 
13650 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 2:11am
Subject: Re: Unusual things said by children.....

 
  Hi Sarah,

As I see it from your description, this is a child of spiritual 
maturity beyond his age and beyond many adults.  I expect him to do 
great things that are beneficial to many people in the future.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,
Victor


---  Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Howard & Dan,
> 
>   --- <> wrote: > Hi again, Dan -
> > 
> >        Talking about unusual things said by children,
> 
> I meant to add a comment made recently by an 8 year old student of 
mine
> (half French, half Vietnamese):
> 
> Me: How was your birthday and birthday party last week?
> Child:  I don't think birthdays are so great.....
> Me: Why not? Didn't you receive any nice presents?
> Child: Well, birthdays just take you one year closer to death. 
Also, I
> think giving presents is more fun.
> .....
> 
> I reported the comments to his mother (non-Buddhist, non-other ist) 
and
> she told me recently she asked the child if he'd like to visit her 
friend
> and new baby in hospital. The child replied "Does the baby realize 
that
> he's just born to die." She also told me that he always tells her 
not to
> buy any more toys for him, but to buy them for some poor children 
instead.
> *****
> I've had one or two further conversations about birth and death 
with this
> child and he's even written an essay (his choice) on `Dying'. He's 
a very
> happy and kind child and likes to help other children win prizes. 
His
> older sister and both parents don't share his interests or values 
at all,
> but he's perfectly confident about them, even when other children 
laugh at
> him.
> 
> Sarah
> =====

 
13651 From: Lucy   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:42am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  Hi Larry

> Lucy, I hope you aren't asking me all those questions. I don't have a
> clue.

As you were racing through it I assumed it was because you'd got it all ...
Now I know it was to avoid being asked what it all meant  : )

> I took this chapter to be focused on the uncertainty of the next
> life and the limits of meritorious activity.

But it's kind of tempting to look into the process well and work out ways
to trick the whole thing ... mind you, it might mean straying into "M"
territory ...  going to see a wise old Lama who can remember it all  very
well ... who knows.... (musing to myself)

The other thing of course is curiosity - wouldn't you like to find out what
your patisandhi citta was  ??? (which is where the bhavanga citta comes
in... ) It's so intriguing !

OK, what's on Chapter 11 ?  I'm nearly through with the translation I was
doing in my spare time so I may be able to follow the next chapter - give
or take a few football matches dragging me away from the good path

Lucy

 
13652 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 7:34am
Subject: ADL ch. 11 (1)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 11 (1)

DIFFERENT TYPES OF PATISANDHI-CITTA 

We see many different beings in this world, men and animals, all with
different appearances and different characters. They must have been
different from the first moment of their lives, from the moment of the
patisandhi-citta or rebirth-consciousness. One may wonder how many
different types of patisandhi-citta there are. On the other hand, beings
who are born in this world also have things in common. We share the same
world and we receive impressions through the senses, no matter whether
we are rich or poor. On account of the objects which we experience
through the six doors, kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise. All these
cittas, arising in our daily life, are kamavacara cittas or cittas of
the 'sense-sphere'. 

One could divide human beings as regards their birth into two classes: 

1. Those who are born with a patisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala
vipaka (which means that the kusala vipakacitta is not accompanied by
beautiful roots: by alobha or generosity, by adosa or kindness, or by
panna or wisdom) 

2. Those who are born with a patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka kusala
vipaka (kusala vipaka accompanied by beautiful roots) 

When a human being is born with a patisandhi-citta which is ahetuka, his
birth is the result of kamavacara kusala kamma, but the degree of the
kusala kamma is less than the kusala kamma which produces a sahetuka
patisandhi-citta. People who are born with an ahetuka patisandhi-citta
are handicapped from the first moment of life. Eye-sense or ear-sense
does not develop or they have other defects. However, when we see
someone who is handicapped we cannot tell whether there was at the first
moment of his life an ahetuka patisandhi-citta or a sahetuka
patisandhi-citta. We cannot tell whether someone was handicapped from
the first moment of his life or whether he became handicapped later on,
even while he was still in his mother's womb and thus we do not know
which type of patisandhi-citta he was born with. The fact that a person
is handicapped has not happened by chance; it is due to one's kamma. 

There is only one type of patisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala
vipaka, but there are many degrees of this vipaka. The kamma which
produces this vipakacitta can cause birth in different kinds of
surroundings: in unpleasant surroundings, though not in woeful planes,
and in pleasant surroundings. It can even cause birth in the lowest
heavenly plane. 

There is also an ahetuka patisandhi-citta which is akusala vipaka. This
type of citta does not arise in the human plane, but in a woeful plane.
Only one type of patisandhi-citta is akusala vipaka, but it is of many
degrees. There are many varieties of akusala kamma and thus there must
be many varieties of unhappy rebirth. The unhappy rebirth we can see in
this world is birth as an animal. There are three more classes of woeful
planes, which we cannot see; they are the world of the 'petas' (ghosts),
the world of 'asuras' (demons), and the hell planes. 

The function of patisandhi can be performed by different types of
vipakacittas produced by different kammas. It depends on kamma as to
which type of vipakacitta performs the function of patisandhi-citta in
the case of such and such a being. Two ahetuka vipakacittas which
perform the function of patisandhi are santirana akusala vipakacitta and
santirana kusala vipakacitta. 

When santirana-citta arises in a process of cittas experiencing an
object through one of the five senses, the santirana-citta performs the
function of investigating (santirana) the object. As we have seen,
santirana-citta is an ahetuka vipakacitta. The same type of citta can
perform more than one function, but at different moments.
Santirana-citta can also perform the function of patisandhi. When the
santirana-citta performs the function of patisandhi it does not arise in
a sense-door process and it does not investigate an object.

 
13653 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 7:55am
Subject: Re: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)

 
  Manji, much appreciated.

going, going 

Larry

 
13654 From: <> 
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 8:30am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  Hi Lucy, one way to trick the system is to not rely on the future or
worry about the past. Even the present is barely anything at all.

Larry

 
13655 From: onco111   
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 6:32pm
Subject: question for Howard

 
  What's rupakkhanda?

 
13656 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: Fwd: post on Dosa

 
  Dear Nina, and All,

Nina, you kindly expressed an interest in reading the post concerning 
Dosa  that RobertK mentioned I had sent to DL.  I have included all 
that was relevant below, and would be interested in any helpful 
comments anyone may care to make. Struggling with ambushing emotions 
seems to regularly use a lot of my energy. Sometimes I feel I have 
made progress, only to wonder about this the next time strong 
emotional reactions seem to control my life.

metta,
Christine 

> ----- Original Message -----
"christine_forsyth"  
wrote:

                     <<<<<snip>>>>>>
> > Over the last year, I became conscious of my extremely reactive
> > nature (imagine not even realising I had it), and  with the help 
of
> > the Teachings on Conditions, and some good and patient dhamma
> > friends, some changes have come about.
> >
> > Conditions for 'me' being 'me':
> > Being born in Australia, into a society where the Cultural Myth is
> > that it is the Land of the Fair Go for All (equal opportunity), 
that
> > believes one should Champion the Underdog, that has a cynical
> > contempt for Authority (we're all descended from convicts, dontcha
> > know) - ensured that I grew up with a particular point of view.  
This
> > included valuing  fairness, protecting the weak, and admiring 
those
> > with the courage to stand for a Principle against overwhelming 
odds.
> > All this was seen as good and noble and was encapsulated within
> > swirls of powerful emotions.  Being born into a politically active
> > family, meant that it was almost inevitable that I end up in a
> > profession that sought to bring about social change, advocated on
> > behalf of the powerless, often stood alone against Authority. This
> > meant being alert to perceived wrongs, analysing situations to see
> > the cause, devising action plans to rectify the situation. It 
meant
> > holding strong views on what was Morally Right, having the
> > expectation that all wrongs could and should be righted, and that 
*I*
> > should be the righter of these wrongs. I was such a bundle of
> > indignation and righteous anger. :) :)
> > This potted history is just an example of me being the result of 
the
> > parents I had and the upbringing they gave me - other ever more
> > complicated networks of conditions go back into beginningless 
time.
> >
> > One of the hardest things initially to comprehend in the Teachings
> > (leaving aside anatta and kamma for the moment:)) was that anger,
> > including righteous anger, depression, unhappiness and hurt 
feelings
> > were dosa one of the Kilesas (defilements mental impurities), and
> > were unwholesome.  I felt it was victim-blaming. I had such a hard
> > time coming to understand  that if MY feelings which would 
instantly,
> > powerfully, overwhelmingly flare up in response to the words or
> > actions of others were conditioned and not under my control, it 
was
> > also the same for others. I was definitely sure that the feelings,
> > words, actions of OTHERS were totallly under their control. This 
had
> > an important corollary -  they could therefore be held accountable
> > and even 'blamed'. I could weave stories around their intentions 
and
> > the wrongs they were doing. That way I lived in the past or the
> > future, when really there is only the present moment.
> >
> > Can't have it both ways.....  Everyone is the sum total of their
> > accumulations, they are what they are because of everything else 
that
> > has ever occurred to them in body and mind.  I think studying 
about
> > dependent arising (Paticcasamuppada) the principle of 
conditionality
> > has helped to wear away the idea of a 'self having control'.
> >
> > For me, things are becoming clearer slowly, when I look into
> > conditionality and anatta.  As you know, my knowledge is only 
shallow
> > so far, but it has helped me unhook a little from vedana
> > (particularly Domanassa vedana -unpleasant mental feeling) - the 
main
> > thing I have concentrated on with regard to feeling upset, 
worried,
> > stressed is Anicca. If I can catch myself before I'm immersed in 
the
> > feeling, and can think about its impermanence, its rising-being-
> > falling, I don't dance such a puppet dance on its strings.
> > Anyway, just my thoughts such as they are, plus a couple of links 
to
> > readings on Annoyance and Anger.
> >
> >  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-161a.html
> > Anguttara Nikaya V.161 Aghatapativinaya Sutta "Removing Annoyance"
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an07-060.html
> > Anguttara Nikaya VII.60
> > Kodhana Sutta
> > "An Angry Person"
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp/17.html
> > Dhammapada XVII "Anger"
> >
> > metta,
> > Christine
> > --- End forwarded message ---

 
13657 From: Howard 
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2002 6:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] question for Howard

 
  Hi, Dan -

In a message dated 6/4/02 6:33:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan writes:


> What's rupakkhanda?
> =========================
       ;-)) When I first looked at this I wondered "What's he talking about? 
He knows what that is!!", but then I got it. This is related to my 
phenomenalist preconceptions! 
 ;-)
       I understand rupakhandha to be the aggregate of physical experiences - 
sights, sounds, tastes, smells, hardness/softness/textures etc and, 
derivatively, the concocted conceptual experiences of bodies and other 
seemingly "external" physical objects. Our physical experience is a subject - 
object, vi~n~nana - arramana dualistic mode of experience, with rupakhandha 
constituting the objective pole. This is my picture of the matter. I do not 
insist on it. ;-)

With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
                                         



 
13658 From: Akasa Levi   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 3:21am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide

 
  NOTES ON DHAMMA is brilliant & could used a slight edit & definitely a republish....XXXA

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Newton
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide

--- christine_forsyth  wrote:
> Hello Michael,
>
> I was just reading your first post when the second
> arrived!  It is
> very early sunday morning here in Brisbane ......
> Thanks for posting
> the link.  I have read some of Nanavira Theras
> writings previously,
> and will try to look at the website later today.
> (Though I wonder if
> he is considered to be a 'mainstream' theravada
> (even though a
> Bhikkhu?  There does seem to be rather a 'silence'
> about his
> teachings, don't you think?)
>
> metta,
> christine
>
> ---  Michael Newton
> wrote:
>
> > > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in
> the
> > group;
> > I commented on this subject to Robert in a
> previous
> > email to the group about the suicide of
> > the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have
> > found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this
> > is all tactfully discussed.Here it
> > is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so/ maybe members of
> > this group could go to this site and read it.Think
> > his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE
> DHAMMA
> > WITH METTA,MICHAEL
>
> Hello,Christine;
Yes,there is,as you say,a great silence,around
the Ven.Nanaviras death.Here in California,I've
seen nothing written about this anywhere here,
nor do many Buddhists here know anything about
this.I'm glad some members of this group are
sharing some of their comments,which was just
what I was hoping for.Even the Ven.Nanaviras
published work"NOTES ON DHAMMA"is out of
print.Very few copies available.Wonder if anyone
knows about this book and whether this book
ever got republished.YOURS IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL


 
13659 From: Michael Newton   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 4:17am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide

 
  --- Akasa Levi  wrote:
> NOTES ON DHAMMA is brilliant & could used a slight
> edit & definitely a republish....XXXA
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Newton
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 9:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: choice and suicide
> 
> --- christine_forsyth  wrote:
> > Hello Michael,
> >
> > I was just reading your first post when the second
> > arrived!  It is
> > very early sunday morning here in Brisbane ......
> > Thanks for posting
> > the link.  I have read some of Nanavira Theras
> > writings previously,
> > and will try to look at the website later today.
> > (Though I wonder if
> > he is considered to be a 'mainstream' theravada
> > (even though a
> > Bhikkhu?  There does seem to be rather a 'silence'
> > about his
> > teachings, don't you think?)
> >
> > metta,
> > christine
> >
> > ---  Michael Newton
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > Hello!Christine and Robert and anybody else in
> > the
> > > group;
> > > I commented on this subject to Robert in a
> > previous
> > > email to the group about the suicide of
> > > the Ven.Nanavira in 1964 in Sri Lanka.Now,I have
> > > found the webpage for Ven.Nanavira,where this
> > > is all tactfully discussed.Here it
> > > is-http://nanavira.cjb.net-so/ maybe members of
> > > this group could go to this site and read
> it.Think
> > > his suicide note is on there too.YOURS IN THE
> > DHAMMA
> > > WITH METTA,MICHAEL
> >
> > Hello,Christine;
> Yes,there is,as you say,a great silence,around
> the Ven.Nanaviras death.Here in California,I've
> seen nothing written about this anywhere here,
> nor do many Buddhists here know anything about
> this.I'm glad some members of this group are
> sharing some of their comments,which was just
> what I was hoping for.Even the Ven.Nanaviras
> published work"NOTES ON DHAMMA"is out of
> print.Very few copies available.Wonder if anyone
> knows about this book and whether this book
> ever got republished.YOURS IN DHAMMA,MICHAEL
> >
> >
> >Hello!Akasa;
Thank's for your feedback.I definately,would agree
with you,that "NOTES ON DHAMMA"is brilliant and
could stand to be republised.Wonder who would take
that on?Yours in Dhamma,Michael
> 
> 



 
13660 From: <> 
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 7:23am
Subject: ADL ch. 11 (2)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 11 (2)

As we have seen (Ch.9), there are three kinds of santirana-citta: 

1. Santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha
(indifferent feeling) 

2. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha 

3. Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka, accompanied by somanassa
(pleasant feeling) 

The santirana-citta which is akusala vipaka, accompanied by upekkha, can
perform the function of patisandhi in woeful planes. This means that the
type of patisandhi-citta arising in woeful planes is of the same type as
the akusala vipakacitta which is santirana-citta performing the function
of investigating in a sense-door process of cittas. 

The santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka accompanied by upekkha, can,
apart from the function of investigating in a sense-door process, also
perform the function of patisandhi in human and heavenly planes. 

The Santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka accompanied by somanassa does
not perform the function of patisandhi. 

Akusala kamma and kusala kamma of different beings can produce nineteen
different types of patisandhi-citta in all, arising in different planes
of existence. One of these types is akusala vipaka and eighteen types
are kusala vipaka. Of the types of citta which are kusala vipaka, one
type is ahetuka kusala vipaka and seventeen types are sahetuka kusala
vipaka (accompanied by beautiful roots). There are many degrees of each
of these nineteen types of patisandhi-citta because kamma can be of many
degrees. It is due to kamma that people are born ugly or beautiful and
that they are born in unpleasant or in pleasant surroundings. The fact
that one is born into miserable circumstances does not mean that one's
next birth will also be in miserable circumstances. It all depends on
the kamma one has accumulated. As regards people who are born into happy
circumstances, if akusala kamma produce results, their next birth may be
an unhappy one. 

We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Fours, Ch. IX, pal. 5,
Darkness): 

'Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? 

He who is in darkness and bound for darkness; he who is in darkness but
bound for light; he who is in light but bound for darkness; he who is in
light and bound for light. 

And how, monks, is a person in darkness bound for darkness? 

In this case a certain person is born in a low family, the family of a
scavenger or a hunter or a basket-weaver or wheel-wright or sweeper, or
in the family of some wretched man hard put to it to find a meal or earn
a living, where food and clothes are hard to get. Moreover, he is
ill-favoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, purblind, crooked, lame or
paralysed, with never a bite or sup, without clothes, vehicle, without
perfumes or flower-garlands, bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the
practice of evil with body, speech and thought; and so doing, when body
breaks up, after death, he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the
downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in darkness and
bound for darkness. 

And how, monks, is a person in darkness but bound for light? 

In this case a certain person is born in a low family... without bed,
dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech
and thought...and so doing, when body breaks up, after death he is
reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. 

And how, monks, is a person in light but bound for darkness? 

In this case a certain person is born in a high family... And that man
is well-built, comely and charming, possessed of supreme beauty of form.
He is one able to get clothes, vehicle, perfumes and flower-garlands,
bed, dwelling and lights. But he lives in the practice of evil with
body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up, after death he
is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus,
monks, is the person who is in light but bound for darkness. 

And how, monks, is a person who is in light and bound for light? 

In this case a person is born in a high family...able to get
clothes...bed, dwelling and lights. He lives in the . practice of good
with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up after
death, he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. Thus,
monks, is one who is in light and bound for light. 

These, monks, are the four persons found existing in the world.'

 
13661 From: dsgmods   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 1:09pm
Subject: Reminder to trim posts

 
  Dear Michael & All,

Just a reminder to trim those parts of previous posts which are 
not
necessary for replies. Also when possible, please put your reply 
at the
beginning rather than at the very end of a long message.

These points assist those reading in digest form, those who 
print out
messages or those reading in haste.

Thanks,

Jon & Sarah

 
13662 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: Welcome & Notes On Dhamma

 
  Dear Akasa,

 --- Akasa Levi  wrote: > NOTES ON DHAMMA is brilliant
& could used a slight edit & definitely a
> republish....XXXA

I’m glad to see your note on list and I’m glad Michael helped you to find
us all on DSG. 

(To others: Akasa, then a monk, joined some of our discussions in Sri
Lanka in the late 70s, along with other monks inc. B.Bodhi &
B.Dhammadharo. I also have fond memories of Akasa in Bodh Gaya in the
early 70s where a small group of us studied and meditated with Munindra,
Goenka and other teachers for several months.)

Akasa, if you’d care to share any further details about where you live now
and your practice/study, we’d all be glad to hear.

I wonder if you, Michael or Christine would kindly give either a link to
“Notes on Dhamma” or type out a paragraph which you find inspiring for us
to read.

Hope you’re doing well....

Best wishes,

Sarah
======



 
13663 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 3:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Dear Victor,

Thank you for your many helpful references as usual which I’ve just been
checking. I’m rearranging your comments and references here:

 --- yuzhonghao  wrote: > Sarah,

S:> > As we find the *self* dear, so others do too.
> > Therefore, we should treat others well.
> 
V:> Does * symbol around the words "ourselves" and "self" signify 
> anything special?  If yes, what does it signify?
.....
As you and I often have a different understanding when we use self/*self*,
I tend to use the * when I write to you to indicate that this is
conventional speech only  (hopefully to pre-empt any suggestion by you
that there is a suggestion of self being a reality). As Howard said, we
all (including the Buddha) need to use conventional speech.
.....
S:> > "Searching all directions
> > with one's awareness,
> > one finds no one dearer
> > than oneself.
> > In the same way, others
> > are fiercely dear to themselves.
> > So one should not hurt others
> > if one loves oneself."
> > *****
> > In other words, in all the world, the greatest clinging is to 
> *ourselves*.
> 
V:> How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest clinging is 
> to ourselves?
.....
“One finds no one dearer than oneself”.

Here *oneself* is again used conventionally. In reality what is it that
there is clinging to? Surely it is to the visible objects, sounds, smells,
tastes, tactile experiences and mental objects experienced by *ourselves*.

I believe that your 4 quotes here are very helpful and confirm these
points well. By understanding that what we take for *self* are merely
these different phenomena and that it is the clinging to them --and
misunderstanding of them --that prolongs life in samsara:
.....
V:> See
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-121.html
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-052.html

> > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
> > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html
.....
“'And seeing what danger does your teacher teach the subduing of passion &
desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications.
Seeing what danger does your teacher teach the subduing of passion &
desire for consciousness?' 

"Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is not free from passion,
desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then from any change &
alteration in that form, there arises sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, &
despair. When one is not free from passion... for feeling... for
perception... for fabrications... When one is not free from passion,
desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then from any
change & alteration in that consciousness, there arise sorrow,
lamentation, pain, grief, & despair..”
*****
What we take for *self* consists of these different phenomena.
.....
V:> Let me know if this reasoning make sense: 
> 
> 1. This very clinging is clinging to the aggregates.  
> 
> 2. The aggregates make up what we take for self.
> 
> 3. Thus this clinging is clinging to self.
.....

Yes, that’s why in the Udana, conventionally speaking, it says there is
“no one dearer than oneself”.
.....
V:> > On the question you often raise about whether there is a self 
> outside the
> > khandhas, 
> 
> See
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html
.....
You’re referring me to the Ananda sutta and probably to these lines:
.....
"And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self
-- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would
become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not
exist?'" > 
.....
In a note to these lines, B.Bodhi (in his translation of SN) suggests the
reason the Buddha does not declare at this point “There is no Self” would
have been “ 1) because such a mode of expression was used by the
annihilationists, and the Buddha wanted to avoid aligning his teaching
with theirs; and 2) because he wished to avoid causing confusion in those
already attached to the idea of self.  The Buddha declares that “all
phenomena are nonself” (sabbe dhammaa anattaa), which means that if one
seeks a self anywhere one will not find one.  Since “all phenomena”
includes both the conditioned and the unconditioned, this precludes an
utterly transcendent, ineffable self”. <end quote, p.1457>
*****
For my part, I believe it’s not enough to just read a few lines in one
sutta to understand a point, but we have to read many, many suttas,
commentaries and Abhidhamma texts as well, to really understand why the
Buddha spoke in a particular way in a particular context.

Thanks, Victor, you always  add some helpful links and keep questioning
and challenging what we all say, which I believe is helpful for us all,
even if we get a little impatient at times;-)) I know you'll let me know
(and suggest I read the suttas again;-)) if there are still any points of
disagreement.

Sarah
=====


 
13664 From: christine_forsyth   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 4:28pm
Subject: Re: Welcome & Notes On Dhamma

 
  Dear Sarah, Akasa, and 
Michael,                                                              
                                                              
I think there was a discussion of Nanavira Thera in the 'Choice and 
Suicide' Thread, and I don't think I have much more to add. However, 
I would be quite interested to read anything others may post on 
Nanavira Thera.

Some url's for Nanavira Thera pages:
The Nanavira Thera Dhamma Page 'An alternative Approach to the 
Buddha's Teaching'.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/

Clearing the Path (1960-65) which include 'Notes on Dhamma' 
and 'Collected Letters'
Addenda to Clearing the Path
Early writings 1950-1960
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/ctp-cont.htm

Pictures of Nanavira Thera
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/pictures.htm
Pictures of Ven. Ñánavíra, Ven. Ñánamoli, Ven. Ñánavimala
and Sister Vajirá
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/pic2.htm

Suicide and The Dhamma (about his form of death)
This url needs to be cut and pasted and put in google, then only 
click on 'Cached',  otherwise it will just go to lanka.net
http://www.lanka.net/bcc/nachap11.html

metta,
Christine
---  Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Akasa,
> 
>  --- Akasa Levi  wrote: > NOTES ON DHAMMA is 
brilliant
> & could used a slight edit & definitely a
> > republish....XXXA
> 
> I'm glad to see your note on list and I'm glad Michael
helped you 
to find
> us all on DSG. 
    <<<<<<snip>>>>>
> I wonder if you, Michael or Christine would kindly give either a 
link to
> "Notes on Dhamma" or type out a paragraph which you find
inspiring 
for us
> to read.
> 
> Hope you're doing well....
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Sarah
> ======

 
13665 From: Sarah   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 5:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Welcome & Notes On Dhamma

 
  Hi Chris,

Many thanks for the links. I'll try to read a little later when I'm not so
'doped out' from my flu virus.

As always, I'm SO impressed at the way you can just turn out the links
that anyone requests. You'll have to give me a few computer organisation
tips next week.

Thanks,

Sarah
======


 
13666 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 9:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Sarah and All

--- Sarah  wrote: 
> Dear Christine & All,
...
> We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself
> so
> important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the
> value of being a ‘nobody’ or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our
> trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in
> this
> very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and
> I
> was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of
> being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually,
> I’ve come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what 
> precious ‘treasure’ they are. 

Just after reading this I came across a 'Calvin and Hobbes' cartoon that
talked about 'being a doormat' in a very similar context.  In the strip,
Calvin refuses to get out of the way of the local bully, saying somewhat
self-righteously 'A person can't be a doormat unless he allows himself to
be one'.  On being duly trampled over, he declares "I've got to stop
reading those dumb advice columns".

Joking aside there is I think a danger of misunderstanding the idea that
one should be like a dust-rag.  It is I believe a reference to aspects of
(naturally arising) kusala.

I have an idea the reference to being a dust-rag comes from the texts. 
Does anyone know the reference?

Jon



 
13667 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 10:00pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Christine

Thanks for bringing this up.  As usual your little summary pretty well
covers the topic!  One or two personal slants on the theme.

I tend to think of the situation being described here as another instance
of the need to focus on the message and not the manner or means of its
delivery.  It is so easy to ignore or even reject true dhamma because of
aversion to the speaker, to the circumstance of the occasion or to some
other wholly irrelevant (in the overall scheme of things) consideration. 
It takes a certain confidence in the value of the teachings, and other
qualities as well, to be able to put these considerations aside.

The other point that I find it useful to be reminded of is the inestimable
value of seeing one's faults (i.e., one's akusala).  I mention this
because approaches/practices that emphasise having more kusala and less
akusala as the means of developing the path or as an indicator of progress
along the path tend as I see it to incline one in the opposite direction,
i.e., to 'seeing' more kusala, and perhaps to discouragement at the idea
that there is more, and more deeply rooted, akusala than one ever
imagined.

Just as one can be pleased at coming across treasure, so in a sense can
becoming aware of previously unrecognised akusala be something to be
welcomed.

Jon

 --- christine_forsyth  wrote: > Dear All,
> 
> Recently in a discussion with a dhamma friend, something was 
> mentioned that seemed a little different to how I'd previously 
> regarded relations with others, and which I'm still thinking over.  
> The friend said  that if another person points out our (true) 
> faults, "regardless of this other person's intentions", we should see 
> it as someone pointing us to treasure.  
>  As well, the friend quoted a passage from Majjhima Nikaya 140, Dhatu-
> vibhabga Sutta, "An Analysis of the Properties"
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn140.html
> "Yes, monk, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, 
> so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to assume that it was proper to 
> address me as 'friend.' But because you see your transgression as 
> such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your 
> confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & discipline of 
> the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends 
> in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future." 
>  
> Mostly, in ordinary everyday life, criticising others or being 
> criticised is seen as impolite.  So, I guess this is a hard thing for 
> me - seeing criticism as something not just to consider, but as 
> something to be glad of, as if I had been told the whereabouts of 
> treasure.  The 'normal' reaction I usually have, and which I see in 
> many others, is to become defensive, experience unwholesome emotions, 
> and, perhaps, suspect the motives of the other.  Usually, I initially 
> see most criticism as incorrect ('who me? Couldn't be!') before after 
> some time passes, being able to assess it fairly.  Given this 
> propensity, to see oneself as right and good, how do we know 
> our 'true' faults?  The phrase "regardless of this other person's 
> intentions" is difficult.  The other person could really be making 
> untrue statements out of misunderstanding or maliciousness...hard  to 
> control an emotional reaction if  it is believed the other knows the 
> statements are untrue.
>  
> I know this could be viewed as a trivial thing, and yet, for some of 
> us, emotions are the strings that make the puppet dance.......
> 
> metta,
> Christine





 
13668 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 11:38pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Hi Jon,

To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for dust-rag. In
Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry for dust-rag
but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the same thing. The
Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in the
Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I don't have an
English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I can see it
in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in the fifth
simile. Could this be what you have in mind?

Best wishes,
Jim

> Joking aside there is I think a danger of misunderstanding the idea that
> one should be like a dust-rag.  It is I believe a reference to aspects of
> (naturally arising) kusala.
>
> I have an idea the reference to being a dust-rag comes from the texts.
> Does anyone know the reference?
>
> Jon



 
13669 From: Num 
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 8:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Hi Jon, Jim, and all;

This is an incident mentioned in vutathi-sutta. There is some discussion 
about a dust-rag on dsg about a year ago.  In tipitaka, Thai edition, it's 
the first sutta in Sihanadavagga, Navakanipata, Anguttara-nikaya. A young 
monk went to Buddha and claimed that Ven. Sariputta slightly hit him when 
Ven. Sariputta was passing by. He said that Ven. Sariputta did not ask him 
for his forgiveness.  Ven.Sariputta then gave a discourse about bodily 
awareness (kayagatasati). He gave analogies of being humble with behaving 
according to the earth (similar to earth, it does not loathe with the pure 
and the impure, excreta, urine, saliva, pus, or blood), to the water, to the 
fire, to the wind, to a dust-rag, like when an outcast girl or boy going in 
to a market, like a bull with no horn, like a young man or woman distastes 
corpse, the body is like an oil container with holes.  At the end, the young 
monk asked for forgiveness from both Ven.Sariputta and the Buddha.

The dust-rag is also mentioned couple times in Parivara, Vinayapitaka rgd how 
monks, both senior and junior, should behave to each other.

At this moment, I do not have my Pali or Thai-Pali CD-rom with me. I will try 
to look it up when I am back in BKK.

I discussed this with Kom before that we should appreciate a person or an 
incident that helps us see our kilesa clearer and better. Panna needs food 
and good friends to  grow.

Best wishes and bon voyage for everyone on Sri Lanka trip.

Num

 
13670 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 1:09am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Dosa

 
  op 04-06-2002 13:10 schreef christine_forsyth op :
Dear Christine, thank you very much for your thoughts about dosa. Yes, it
does take up a lot of energy, because we seem to hold on to it. Even if we
reason, the thoughts of annoyance keep coming back. Conditions. It seems we
make progress, then we fall back. We are not non-returners, and thus the
latent tendency lies dormant in the citta. It will condition akusala citta
with dosa, and dosa always finds an object. If it is not the other person,
it is the wind or the rain, or a broken glass.
You recommended some texts, such as Dhammapada XVII:
<One should give up anger; one should abandon pride; one should overcome all
fetters. Ills never befall him who clings not to mind and body (nama and
rupa) and is passionless.>

Pride is mentioned here. Well conceit is an important condition for hurt
feelings: he did that to me. So long as there is he and me, there is
conceit, we find ourselves important. Even if we do not compare in the sense
of he is better, just as good as or worse than me. Conceit plays such a role
in our life. Let us remember about the dana of forgiving, when we can
forgive there is no conceit. Then the clinging to nama and rupa: it is
conditioned. There can be more understanding of nama and rupa, even if it is
intellectual understanding that that person is not X who insulted me, there
are only sound, hearing, thinking, aversion, all arising because of their
appropriate conditions. It sometimes helps, sometimes it does not, it is as
it is. That is why I appreciate it to be reminded of the truth, like Sarah
does so often, explaining that not the circumstances are the real cause of
dosa, but the fact that dosa has been accumulated. We forget though. Why do
we not see ourselves and others as only nama and rupa? Because the
understanding of the level of satipatthana is weak.
> 
Ch: Nina, you kindly expressed an interest in reading the post concerning
> Dosa  that RobertK mentioned I had sent to DL.  I have included all
> that was relevant below, and would be interested in any helpful
> comments anyone may care to make. Struggling with ambushing emotions
> seems to regularly use a lot of my energy. Sometimes I feel I have
> made progress, only to wonder about this the next time strong
> emotional reactions seem to control my life.
> >>> 
>>> One of the hardest things initially to comprehend in the Teachings
>>> (leaving aside anatta and kamma for the moment:)) was that anger,
>>> including righteous anger, depression, unhappiness and hurt
> feelings
>>> were dosa one of the Kilesas (defilements mental impurities), and
>>> were unwholesome.  I felt it was victim-blaming. I had such a hard
>>> time coming to understand  that if MY feelings which would
> instantly,
>>> powerfully, overwhelmingly flare up in response to the words or
>>> actions of others were conditioned and not under my control, it
> was
>>> also the same for others. I was definitely sure that the feelings,
>>> words, actions of OTHERS were totallly under their control. This
> had
>>> an important corollary -  they could therefore be held accountable
>>> and even 'blamed'. I could weave stories around their intentions
> and
>>> the wrongs they were doing. That way I lived in the past or the
>>> future, when really there is only the present moment.

N: We forget that also dosa of others is also conditioned, beyond control.
If we see this, it is easier to forgive. This is a good point you bring up.
Also, sometimes it helps to think in a conventional way about them. When we
have heard some background info, we say to ourselves: Yes, if I had known
that, I would have reacted differently. The other person may be sick,
mentally ill, overwhelmed by difficult circumstances, he may not even know
what he is saying. I have experienced this myself. This helps the arising of
compassion. 
Strong feelings, emotions, stress, well, you are not the only person, we all
have such experiences time and again, sometimes unexpectedly. We would
rather not, it feels so unpleasant, but, conditions again. I am glad
knowledge about the Paticca Sumuppada helped you. I am glad you bring up
these important points abpout dosa, so much daily life.
Have a very good and fruitful journey with many opportunities for listening
to the Dhamma and reflection. I am most keen to hear about the discussions,
Best wishes from Nina.

 
13671 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 1:09am
Subject: Chidren's words

 
  Dear all, 
I agree with Victor, we can learn from children, and they are so
spontaneous. Sarah should keep track of this child. To decide not wanting
toys for himself: he makes me think of the Bodhisatta, wise Temyia, in de
Mughapakkha Jataka.
I would appreciate it very much to hear more about children's sayings, we
can make a collection here.
Nina.

 
13672 From: <> 
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 8:29am
Subject: ADL ch. 11 (3)

 
  http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 11 (3)

The patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka vipaka (with beautiful roots) is
the result 
of kusala kamma which is of a higher degree than the kusala kamma
producing an ahetuka patisandhi-citta. There are eight different types
of sahetuka vipakacittas which can perform the function of
patisandhi.  

People are born with characters which are different; they are born with
different 
degrees of wisdom or without wisdom. The patisandhi-cittas of people are 
different. When the patisandhi-citta is sahetuka, it is always
accompanied by 
alobha (non-greed or generosity) and adosa (non-aversion or kindness),
but not always by wisdom. It can be accompanied by wisdom or it can be
without wisdom, depending on the kamma which produces it.  

Apart from the difference in the number of roots (two hetus or three
hetus) which accompany the sahetuka patisandhi-citta there are other
differences. Kusala kamma which produces the patisandhi-citta can be
kamma performed by kusala citta with somanassa or with upekkha, by
kusala citta which is asankharika (unprompted) or sasankharika
(prompted). Thus we see that several factors determine the degree of
kusala kamma which produces its result accordingly.  

Thus the sahetuka patisandhi-cittas which are the results of kamavacara
kusala 
kammas (kusala kammas of the 'sense-sphere') can be classified as eight
different types in all. Summing them up, they are:  

1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, unprompted
(Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-  
sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)  
[Nana is wisdom (panna)]  

 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom,prompted
(Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)  

3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted
(Somanassa-sahagatam-nana-vippayuttam, asankharikam ekam)  

4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom prompted
(Somanassa-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)

5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted
(Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-sampayuttam, asankharikam ekam)   

6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted
(Upekkha-sahagatam,nana-sampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam)  

7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted
(Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, asarikharikam ekam)  

8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted
(Upekkha-sahagatam, nana-vippayuttam, sasarikharikam ekam) 

It is useful to know more details about patisandhi-citta, because it can
help us to 
understand why people are so different.  

The eight types of sahetuka patisandhi-citta which are the results of
kamavacara kusala kammas do not arise only in the human plane, but they
also arise in those heavenly planes of existence which are kama-bhumi or
'sensuous' planes of existence.  

There are thirty-one classes of planes of existence in all. Eleven
planes are 
kama-bhumis (or kama-lokas), of which one is the plane of human beings,
six are heavenly planes and four are woeful planes. Beings born in one
of the kama-bhumis have kamavacara cittas; they receive sense
impressions. There are also other heavenly planes which are not
kama-bhumi.  

If one is born in one of the kama-bhumis and cultivates jhana
(absorption) one 
can, besides kamavacara cittas, also have rupa-jhanacittas and
arupa-jhanacittas. (For the difference between rupa-jhana and
arupa-jhana see Ch XXII.) If one cultivates the Eightfold Path one can
have lokuttara cittas (cittas which directly experience nibbana).  

When one attains jhana, the kusala kamma one performs at that moment is
not kamavacara kusala kamma; at the moment of jhana there are no 
sense-impressions. The kusala kamma which is jhana does not produce
result in 
the same lifespan one attains it, but it can produce result in the form
of the 
patisandhi-citta of the next life. In that case there are jhanacittas
arising shortly 
before death and the patisandhi-citta of the next life experiences the
same object 
as those jhanacittas.  

The result of a rupavacara kusala citta (kusala citta which Is
rupa-jhanacitta) is 
birth in a heavenly plane which is not kamabhumi but a rupa-brahma-plane 
(fine-material world). The result of an arupavacara kusala citta (kusala
citta which is arupa-jhanacitta) is birth in a heavenly plane which is
an arupa-brahma plane (immaterial world). There are different
rupa-brahma planes and arupa-brahma planes.  

There are five stages of rupa-jhana and thus there are five types of
rupavacara 
kusala citta which can produce five types of rupavacara  vipakacitta.
There are four stages of arupa-jhana and thus there are four types of
arupavacara kusala citta which can produce four types cf arupavacara
vipakacitta. Altogether there are nine types of patisandhi-citta which
are the results of the different types of jhanacittas. They are sahetuka
vipakacittas (accompanied  by  beautiful  roots) and they are
always accompanied by panna. 

Summarizing the nineteen types of patisandhi-citta, they are :  

1  akusala vipaka santirana-citta (ahetuka,  result of akusala
kamma)  
 
1  kusala vipaka santirana-citta (ahetuka,  result of  kamavacara
kusala kamma)  
 
8  maha-vipakacittas (sahetuka, results of kamavacara kusala
kamma)  

5  rupavacara vipakacittas (sahetuka, results
of rupa-jhanacittas)  

4  arupavacara vipakacittas (sahetuka, results of arupa-jhanacittas)

 
13673 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 11:27am
Subject: RE: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Jonothan,

It is about 10 suttas after this one (can't find it on access):

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-001.html

kom

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:Jon]

> I have an idea the reference to being a dust-rag comes from the texts.
> Does anyone know the reference?
>
> Jon
>
>
>

 
13674 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 1:52pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Hi Kom, Num, Jim & Jon,

When I referred to K.Sujin's comments the other day, I wasn't able to
locate the sutta, so I'm glad to have been directed here by you all: 

In the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 ‘The Lion Roar’,
i,11 (as Jim said) and also in B.Bodhi’s “Numerical Discourses of the
Buddha’, under ‘Sariputta’s Lion’s Roar’, p231.

Num just gave a good summary and helpful points. Let me add a few quotes
from BB’s translation as Sariputta’s reminders are so useful, I find, to
repeat here:
*****
“Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean,
dung, urine, spittle, pus  and blood, yet for all that the earth has no
revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with
a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without
hostility and without ill will.  However, one in whom mindfulness directed
on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow
monk and leave without an apology.

“Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things
soiled.......<etc>

“Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things
soiled....<etc>

“Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean.....<etc>

“Lord, just as a duster wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled
with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no
revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with
a heart that is like a duster....<etc>

“Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in
rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with
a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and
measureless, without hostility and without ill will......<etc>
<end quote>

*****

There are a few more examples too, as Num mentioned. In the PTS
translation, duster is also used with a footnote:“rajohara.na.m. Comy,
co.laka, a cloth”.

Num, the Vinaya reference you mention is the one that I copied from Nina,
I believe. (As the Comy mentions it can be used for wiping the feet here,
perhaps 'cloth' rather than 'duster' would be the more appropriate
translation). Let me give the quote again:
.....
Nina: "We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should
behave
when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of
a legal question. We read: 

...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though
it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about
sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on
(the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly
ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor
about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or
should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
silence...
The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it
were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." 
*****

Sarah
======
 



 
13675 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 3:17pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] satipatthana

 
  Thanks Jon, for the informative comments.

Rob Ep

====

--- Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Rob Ep
> 
> Believe it or not we have 1 or 2 points of agreement in this post, Rob. 
> ;-))
> 
> > Jon:
> > Some people really doubt whether there can be awareness of presently
> arising
> > ('existing') akusala states.  Here it clearly assumes there can be, and
> explains
> > that the akusala state and the moment of wisely seeing it are in reality
> 2
> > separate mind moments.
> 
> Rob Ep:
> Well I think that's great.  It seems that a kusala discernment trumps an
> akusala state and disappears it?  So much for the search for good Dharma
> medicine for the ills of ordinary life.  A moment of discernment replaces
> akusala with kusala, which makes sense.  In that way, discernment and all
> the qualities which lead to it:  samatha + vipassana, sati and panna,
> defeat the akusala qualities and dissolve them in the moments in which
> they exist.  Which explains why when one reaches arahantship, akusala has
> been completely rooted out of the system.  
> 
> Rather than trying to identify and eradicate akusala states, one need only
> focus on the path, and the more one discerns, the more free one is from
> these states.
> 
> Jon:
> The conclusion you draw at the end here is I think correct, Rob, but the
> process by which the akusala are rooted out is perhaps a little more
> gradual and subtle than you describe, at least to my understanding of the
> texts.
> 
> When there is awareness (at the level of satipatthana) of an akusala
> mental state, nothing is being 'trumped' in the sense of being zapped or
> even displaced.
> 
> This can perhaps best be understood by considering that the basic process
> must be the same whether the dhamma that is the object of awareness is a
> kusala dhamma, an akusala one, a vipaka citta or a rupa.  So the mental
> state or rupa in question continues to arise for successive moments
> according to its appropriate conditions, and cittas with awareness
> continue to arise taking that same object for as long as there are the
> conditions for the awareness to persist.
> 
> What is distinctive about the moment of awareness in terms of effect on
> one's accumulations of kusala and akusala is the special function
> performed by the mental factors that accompany moments of satipatthana. 
> Satipatthana being a (mundane) path moment, the accompanying mental
> factors perform their (mundane) path functions.  
> 
> For example, the mental factor that is energy performs the function of the
> 4 sammapaddhanas, so if the object of the awareness is an akusala mental
> state, the co-arising effort will perform the function of striving for the
> ceasing of that mental state, and if the object of the awareness is a
> kusala mental state, the co-arising effort will perform the function of
> striving for the continuation of that mental state, and so on.  
> 
> In this manner there is some gradual attenuation of the kilesas and some
> accumulation of the enlightenment factors at each moment of satipatthana.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 


 
13676 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 3:55pm
Subject: Re: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)

 
  Dear Manji,

You gave some very helpful quotes in a reply to Larry about internal and
external objects. Let me add a few comments and I’ll be glad to hear from
anyone if they’re incorrect. (I’m snipping the references you gave in more
detail):

1. Here, I understand ‘internal’ and ‘external’ to refer to the internal
and external ayatana. 
.....
> This is from Chachakka sutta:
> 
> "'The six internal media should be known.' Thus it was said. In
> reference to
> what was it said? The eye-medium, the ear-medium......>
<snip> 
> "'The six external media should be known.' Thus it was said. In
> reference to
> what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium...
<snip>
.....

2. In the following sutta you quote, as it says, ‘internal’ refers to
“within oneself”, while external refers to the opposite. I believe the
point made is that when there is the experience of hardness, for example,
it is just the particular rupa experienced regardless of whether it is
internal or external
..... 
> Knowing this, you can read Dhatu-vibhanga sutta, this is a part...:
> 
> "And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either
> internal
> or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal,
> within
> oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: 
<snip>
> Now both the internal earth property & the external earth
> property
> are simply earth property. 

<snip>
.....
3. Continuing with this sutta, I’d like to add a comment after yours:
.....
> The Dhatu-vibhanga sutta goes on to the other dhatu of liquid, fire,
> wind,
> and space. Knowing this "internal", what is external?
> 
> External is the vision of something seen,
> External is the sound of something heard,
<snip>
> Now this/that something seen, something heard, something smelled,
> something
> tasted, something felt, something thought; these, I do believe, are
> concepts. :) This vision, this sound, this smell, this taste, this
> sensation, this idea... need not say more about rupa.
.....
Something seen, heard, smelled and so on can refer to one’s own *self* or
body or to objects outside oneself. In either case, the objects are rupas
which can be directly experienced-- even though later they are only
concepts thought about as you suggest. Visible objects or sounds are
merely rupas regardless of whether they are ‘internal’ or ‘external’.
.....
4.
> Here is only one line from Maha-nidana sutta, the others are just as
> important:
> 
> "Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is
> the
> second emancipation.
.....
Manji, I was rather puzzled by these lines, so I just checked them in
B.Bodhi’s translation of the sutta and commentary. They are under the
section at the end of the Eight Emancipations (a.t.tha vimokkhaa) and
refer to jhanas. It’s not an easy section to comprehend -- and a good
section to consider for those considering the question of ‘liberated by
wisdom’ and ‘liberated in both ways’-- even with the commentary notes, and
needs to be read in the full context, I think. To give an example just for
these lines only:

BB’s transl: “One not perceiving material forms internally sees material
forms externally....”
“Cy. This means that he does not arouse the fine material sphere jhanas on
his own head hairs etc.  By this the fine material sphere jhanas are shown
for someone who does the preparatory work externally and arouses jhanas
only externally.”
*****

5. 
> It can hardly be emphasized enough, "one becomes disenchanted with the
> earth
> property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.". I will put
> the
> end of the Chachakka sutta here:
> 
> =============
> "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows
> disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with
> consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye,
> disenchanted
> with feeling, disenchanted with craving.
> 
> "He grows disenchanted with the ear...
<snip>
.....
Thank you, Manji. It’s a wonderful sutta and Frank mentioned it was his
favourite one in his introduction on DSG. 

Only by clearly understanding these different namas and rupas over and
over as not self, will the understanding grow that discerns the
impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of them too. Sometimes we can
appreciate the danger of craving, but it’s mostly by thinking about it and
not by really discerning the characteristics of the ‘forms’ appearing now.
.....
> Gate... gate... paragate... parasamgate... bodhi! svaha! :)
.....
You’ve lost me a little here....

Wonderful quotes. I’m very impressed by all your considerable study and
consideration these days. I think this area of internal/external is a very
helpful one to discuss further....lots of pitfalls and traps I find.

Looking forward to more. (I’ve just seen your ps below which I’ll leave
for now. Perhaps you can give some quotes from this as well to discuss.)

Sarah
======
> 
> -manji-
> 
> ps: Majjhima Nikaya: Uddessa-viphanga sutta 138 is also a good sutta on
> external/internal.
....................................




 
13677 From: onco111   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 7:12pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] question for Howard

 
  Dan: What's rupakkhanda?
Upasaka Howard: ;-)) When I first looked at this I wondered "What's 
he talking about? He knows what that is!!", but then I got it. This 
is related to my phenomenalist preconceptions! ;-)

--> Dan: You are right that I am asking because of your phenomenalist 
tendencies. I have those same tendencies -- maybe not to the same 
degree as you (didn't you once call yourself a "radical" 
phenomologist?), but I do understand the temptation!

I find the question of 'rupakkhanda' a good one to contemplate. 

1. "And why, bhikkhus, is it called 'rupa' (form)? 'It is 'ruppati' 
(deformed),' therefore it is called  'rupa.' Deformed by what? 
Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by 
thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mostquitoes, wind, sun, and 
serpents. 'It is deformed,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called form." 
[SN III, 22 (Khandhasamyutta)]

This seems to speculate that there *is* something there, contrary to 
the phenomenalist perspective which is either agnostic about 
materiality or denies it as speculative. 

2. What is it that is there? [Skipping the four elements, and 
launching into...] "'Derived materiality' is of twenty-four kinds as 
eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour, 
femininity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; 
bodily intimation, verbal intimation; space element; lightness of 
matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of 
matter, continunity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of 
matter, and physical nutriment." [Vism. XIV, 36]

Hmmm... looks like speculation about a something beyond phenomena to 
call 'material.' Now, Buddha often warns against various forms of 
speculation, but then he turns around and speculates about this thing 
called 'material'? The 'ear element', 'sound' and such are rupas, 
distinct from the experience of hearing. The hearing is conditioned 
on there being ear element and sound coming into contact. I 
sympathize with Berkeley, but it is helpful to think about a 
materiality, a something 'being molested', an aggregate distinct from 
nama, distinct from the experience. 

3. How so? "Taking all these together under the characteristic 
of 'being molested', he sees them as 'materiality'. When he has 
discerned materiality thus, the immaterial states become plain to him 
in accordance with the sense doors, that is to say, the eighty-one 
kinds of mundane consciousness consisting of.... Taking all these 
immaterial states together under the characteristic of 'bending', he 
sees them as 'mentality'." [Vism. XVII, 7-8] 

So, when materiality is seen as materiality and mentality as 
mentality, then the 81 kinds of mundane consciousness become clearer 
(sufficient). Furthermore, all the vipassana-nyana are conditioned on 
a clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 
(necessary). All mundane insight seems thus to be founded on this 
most fundamental distinction. Without that discernment, the vipassana-
nyana cannot arise (apparently).

The phenomenalist attempt to nama-ize rupa (i.e. as experience of 
physical phenomena) may make it more difficult to discern the 
distinct characteristics of nama and rupa. I think that is precisely 
why Buddha did (apparently) make the speculation about 'material'. 
His cautions about speculation were two-fold: 1. About speculating a 
self (sheer delusion); and 2. About delighting in the intellectual 
speculation about various things (clinging). The 'rupa' speculation 
is severely limited and is designed to counter these two dangers of 
speculation. For example, a phenomenalist metaphysic is difficult to 
support and takes great effort because of our very strong 'instinct' 
to posit a rupa to be experienced. But is the phenomenalist effort 
worth it? I think the evidence weighs against against it. 

Upasaka Howard: I understand rupakhandha to be the aggregate of 
physical experiences - sights, sounds, tastes, smells, 
hardness/softness/textures etc and, derivatively, the concocted 
conceptual experiences of bodies and other seemingly "external" 
physical objects. Our physical experience is a subject - object, 
vi~n~nana - arramana dualistic mode of experience, with rupakhandha 
constituting the objective pole. This is my picture of the matter. I 
do not insist on it. ;-)

--> Dan: What do you see as the distinction between, say, sound and 
hearing? Or, for that matter, between sound, ear, and hearing? I do 
sympathize with Berkeley, but ol' Buddha seems to closer to the mark 
he's trying to hit, which differs from the mark the phenomenalists 
are trying to hit.

Dan

 
13678 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 7:42pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  ---  Sarah  wrote:
> Dear Victor,
[snip]
>  --- yuzhonghao  wrote: > Sarah,
[snip]
> As you and I often have a different understanding when we use 
self/*self*,
> I tend to use the * when I write to you to indicate that this is
> conventional speech only  (hopefully to pre-empt any suggestion by 
you
> that there is a suggestion of self being a reality). 





Each and every aggregate is not self.
See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html





[snip]
> > 
> V:> How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest 
clinging is 
> > to ourselves?
> .....
> "One finds no one dearer than oneself".
> 
> Here *oneself* is again used conventionally. In reality what is it 
that
> there is clinging to? Surely it is to the visible objects, sounds, 
smells,
> tastes, tactile experiences and mental objects experienced by 
*ourselves*.
> 
> I believe that your 4 quotes here are very helpful and confirm these
> points well. By understanding that what we take for *self* are 
merely
> these different phenomena and that it is the clinging to them --and
> misunderstanding of them --that prolongs life in samsara:




See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html

These different phenomena are not to be taken for self.




[snip]
> What we take for *self* consists of these different phenomena.




See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
again.

The view "self consists of these different phenomena" is not to be 
assumed.





[snip]
> .....
> V:> > On the question you often raise about whether there is a self 
> > outside the
> > > khandhas, 
> > 
> > See
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html
> .....
> You're referring me to the Ananda sutta and probably to these lines:






I would like you to read the whole discourse.






[snip]
> Thanks, Victor, you always  add some helpful links and keep 
questioning
> and challenging what we all say, which I believe is helpful for us 
all,
> even if we get a little impatient at times;-)) 






What is it that we all say?






[snip]
> 
> Sarah
> =====


Regards,
Victor

 
 
13679 From: Sarah   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 8:40pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Dear Victor,

This discussion started from a comment Rob K made:

R:> Dhamma is learnt for the purpose of giving up self not for 
> accumulating: 

You replied:
V:See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-01.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-002.html

Dhamma is learned not for the purpose of giving up self.
*****

I've followed these references and the other ones you've given and added
comments on them as I understood. I think at this stage you'll have to
elaborate your cryptic comments, questions and meaning given in your
latest post to me in far more detail-- for those of us who are not so
smart at riddles--;-)

It may be the flu virus (let's hope), but I'm feeling particularly dense
this evening.

thanks, Victor

Sarah
======





 
13680 From: onco111   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 9:48pm
Subject: A Sarah moment

 
  A Sarah moment is known through its --

Characteristic: Thoughtful, considerate, and kind words
Function: Opposing wrong view wherever it arises
Manifestation: Pleasant sensations and a smile
Proximate cause: Discernment of conceit

 
13681 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 10:57pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Hi Sarah,

I will try to elaborate more on my response to you.


---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> ---  Sarah  wrote:
> > Dear Victor,
> [snip]
> >  --- yuzhonghao  wrote: > Sarah,
> [snip]
> > As you and I often have a different understanding when we use 
> self/*self*,
> > I tend to use the * when I write to you to indicate that this is
> > conventional speech only  (hopefully to pre-empt any suggestion 
by 
> you
> > that there is a suggestion of self being a reality). 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each and every aggregate is not self.
> See
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html



Let me know if the statement "each and every aggregate is not self" 
is unclear or cryptic.  Does it suggest what you said I suggest?




> [snip]
> > > 
> > V:> How did you infer from what you quoted that the greatest 
> clinging is 
> > > to ourselves?
> > .....
> > "One finds no one dearer than oneself".
> > 
> > Here *oneself* is again used conventionally. In reality what is 
it 
> that
> > there is clinging to? Surely it is to the visible objects, 
sounds, 
> smells,
> > tastes, tactile experiences and mental objects experienced by 
> *ourselves*.
> > 
> > I believe that your 4 quotes here are very helpful and confirm 
these
> > points well. By understanding that what we take for *self* are 
> merely
> > these different phenomena and that it is the clinging to them --
and
> > misunderstanding of them --that prolongs life in samsara:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
> 
> These different phenomena are not to be taken for self.



I find the statement "what we take for self are merely these 
different phenomena" cryptic and vague.  Does it mean "self are 
merely these different phenomena"?  Does everyone take the aggregates 
for self?




Read the discourse and examine what you said "what we take for self 
are merely these different phenomena" with what is being said in the 
discourse.



> 
> [snip]
> > What we take for *self* consists of these different phenomena.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
> again.
> 
> The view "self consists of these different phenomena" is not to be 
> assumed.
> 




Again, read the discourse and examine what you said "what we take for 
self consists of these different phenomena" with what is being said 
in the discourse.



> [snip]
> > .....
> > V:> > On the question you often raise about whether there is a 
self 
> > > outside the
> > > > khandhas, 
> > > 
> > > See
> > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html
> > .....
> > You're referring me to the Ananda sutta and probably to these 
lines:
> I would like you to read the whole discourse.



I was referring you to the whole discourse, including but not limited 
to the lines you quoted.




> [snip]
> > Thanks, Victor, 



You are welcome, Sarah.



you always  add some helpful links and keep 
> questioning
> > and challenging what we all say, which I believe is helpful for 
us 
> all,
> > even if we get a little impatient at times;-)) 
> What is it that we all say?




I am interested in what you have in mind about what we all say.  




> [snip]
> > 
> > Sarah
> > =====




I hope that I have provided links to discourses that are helpful.




> 
> 
> Regards,
> Victor

 
13682 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Dear Num, 

The text about the dustrag in the Vinaya Parivara, especially the Co. was
given by Sarah when she quoted what I had written about the dustrag.

<We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave
when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of
a legal question. We read:

...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though
it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about
sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on
(the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly
ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor
about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or
should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan
silence...
The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it
were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." >
****
op 05-06-2002 18:34 schreef Num op Num:
> The dust-rag is also mentioned couple times in Parivara, Vinayapitaka rgd how
> monks, both senior and junior, should behave to each other.
> 
> At this moment, I do not have my Pali or Thai-Pali CD-rom with me. I will try
> to look it up when I am back in BKK.
> 
> I discussed this with Kom before that we should appreciate a person or an
> incident that helps us see our kilesa clearer and better. Panna needs food
> and good friends to  grow.

N: I like especially your last sentence, you must have great discussions
with Kom, if possible I like to hear more.
With appreciation, Nina. 




 
13683 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 1:50am
Subject: Re: [dsg] question for Howard

 
  Knock, knock, may I butt in shortly, Howard has not much time.
Dan asked: what is rupakkhandha and I had a next question: does rupakkhandha
experience something? But I was concerned about Howard's time, did not want
to annoy him, he is in a hurry. Howard, no need to answer me.
I go over some of Dan's points and will only use part of the quotes:

op 06-06-2002 13:12 schreef onco111 op Dan:

> Dan: 
> I find the question of 'rupakkhanda' a good one to contemplate.
N: Yes, we know in theory, but how good you brought this up, do we really,
really understand? I can give the answer like a parrot, as Num would say.
> 
Dan:  This seems to speculate that there *is* something there, contrary to
> the phenomenalist perspective which is either agnostic about
> materiality or denies it as speculative.
N: I start to understand better phenomenalistic thinking after studying more
of Howard's posts. 
Dan: I 
> sympathize with Berkeley, but it is helpful to think about a
> materiality, a something 'being molested', an aggregate distinct from
> nama, distinct from the experience.
> 
> 3. How so? "Taking all these together under the characteristic
> of 'being molested', he sees them as 'materiality'. When he has
> discerned materiality thus, the immaterial states become plain to him
> in accordance with the sense doors, that is to say, the eighty-one
> kinds of mundane consciousness consisting of.... Taking all these
> immaterial states together under the characteristic of 'bending', he
> sees them as 'mentality'." [Vism. XVII, 7-8]
> 
> So, when materiality is seen as materiality and mentality as
> mentality, then the 81 kinds of mundane consciousness become clearer
> (sufficient). Furthermore, all the vipassana-nyana are conditioned on
> a clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa
> (necessary). All mundane insight seems thus to be founded on this
> most fundamental distinction. Without that discernment, the vipassana-
> nyana cannot arise (apparently).
> 
> The phenomenalist attempt to nama-ize rupa (i.e. as experience of
> physical phenomena) may make it more difficult to discern the
> distinct characteristics of nama and rupa.

N: Yes, we should first clearly see in theory that rupa and nama are
altogether different, otherwise we cannot even begin to develop mindfulness
of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, through one doorway at a
time.The first vipassana nyana is the clear distinction through direct
experience of nama and rupa. That is why I feel really concerned about
making clear that nama is the experience and that rupa does not know
anything, does not feel, does not remember, is not attached, has no
aversion. The eye does not know: visible object is impinging on me. Visible
object does not know I am impinging on the eyesense, and I am seen.
One of the 24 conditions is dissociation-condition, vippayutta paccaya. Nama
and rupa condition one another by way of dissociation, whether conascent or
not. They can never be as closely associated as for example feeling that
coarises with citta, two namas, that have the same base and experience the
same object.
So long as nama and rupa are not clearly distinguished, their arising and
falling away, of one rupa at a time, and of one nama at a time, cannot be
realized.  
I wish Howard and his family a very nice trip to the West coast, with
sufficient free time for reflection on the Dhamma.
Best wishes from Nina.

 
13684 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 7:16am
Subject: Re: [dsg] A Sarah moment

 
  Hi Dan,

Just choking a little on my lemon & honey as I realize this has been sent
to the list.....

Let me assure you, Dan: appearances can be very deceptive;-))
(I’m also sure many will not agree with the analysis, but let’s leave it
here in its glory and not put it to the vote.....;-)

Sarah, discerning a tad of conceit;-(
==============================
 --- onco111  wrote: > A Sarah moment is known
through its --
> 
> Characteristic: Thoughtful, considerate, and kind words
> Function: Opposing wrong view wherever it arises
> Manifestation: Pleasant sensations and a smile
> Proximate cause: Discernment of conceit
...................................................................




 
13685 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 7:18am
Subject: ADL ch. 11 (4)

 
  http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-00.htm

Abhidhamma In Daily Life
Chapter 11 (4)

We do not know which of our deeds will produce the patisandhi-citta of
our next life. We do both good deeds and bad deeds; any one of these
deeds or even a deed performed in a former life can produce the
patisandhi-citta of the next life. The Buddha encouraged people to
perform many kinds of kusala kamma. Each good deed is very valuable; it
is certain to bear its fruit sooner or later. 

We read in the 'Itivuttaka' ('As it was said', the Ones, Ch. III, par.
6, 'Khuddaka Nikaya') that the Buddha said to the monks: 

'Monks, if beings knew, as I know, the ripening of sharing gifts they
would not enjoy their use without sharing them, nor would the taint of
stinginess obsess the heart and stay there. Even if it were their last
bit, their last morsel of food, they would not enjoy its use without
sharing it, if there were anyone to receive it....' 

Kusala kamma can cause a happy rebirth, but the end of birth is to be
preferred to any kind of rebirth. If one cultivates the Eightfold Path
and attains arahatship there will be no more rebirth. The
dying-consciousness (cuti-citta) of the arahat is not succeeded by a
patisandhi-citta. The Buddha often reminded people of the dangers of
birth and encouraged them to be mindful, in order to attain the
'deathless' which is nibbana. We read in the 'Gradual Savings' (Book of
the Eights, Ch -VIII, par. 4) that the Buddha, when he was staying at
Nadika, in the Brick Hall, said to the monks: 

'Mindfulness of death, monks, when made become, when developed is very
fruitful, of great advantage, merging and ending in the deathless. 

And how, monks, is it so.... Take the case of a monk who, when the day
declines and night sets in, reflects thus: 'Many indeed are the chances
of death for me. A snake or scorpion or a centipede might bite me and
might cause my death; that would be a hindrance to me. I might stumble
and fall; the food I have eaten might make me ill; bile might convulse
me; phlegm choke me; winds (within me) with their scissorlike cuts give
me ache; or men or non-humans might attack me and might cause my death.
That would be a hindrance to me.' 

Monks, that monk must reflect thus: 'Are there any evil and wrong states
within me that have not been put away and that would be a hindrance to
me were I to die tonight? If, monks, on consideration he realize that
there are such states... then to put away just those evil and wrong
states, an intense resolution, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle,
mindfulness and self-possession must be made by that monk. Monks, just
as a man whose turban is on fire, or whose hair is burning would make an
intense resolution, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness
and self-possession to put out his (burning) turban or hair; even so,
monks, an intense resolution, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle,
mindfulness and self-possession must be made by that monk to put away
just those evil and wrong states. 

But if that monk, on review, realize that there are no such states
within him that have not been put away which would be a hindrance to
him, were he to die that night--then let that monk live verily in joy
and gladness, training himself day and night in the ways of
righteousness. 

Take the case, monks, of a monk who reflects likewise... when the night
is spent and day breaks. He must reflect in the same way... 

Monks, mindfulness of death when so made become so developed is very
fruitful, of great advantage, merging and ending in the deathless.' 

Questions 
1. Can the patisandhi-citta be ahetuka? 
2. How many types of patisandhi-citta are there? 
3. How many types of patisandhi-citta are akusala vipaka? 
4. When the patisandhi-citta is accompanied by wisdom by which factor is
this conditioned?

 
13686 From: manji   
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 9:10am
Subject: RE: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit Making)

 
  Are you using "oneself" as upadanakkhanda or pannati?

Something seen, something heard, something smelled, something tasted,
and something thought are merely concepts, recollected from objects
of... seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and thought. None of which are
self... rupa is not self.

There couldn't "objects outside self" just as there couldn't be "objects
inside self"... because there is no self to "have inside", and there is
no self to "have outside". There just simply is rupa, there just simply
is vedana, there just simply is sanna, there just simply is cetasika,
and there just simply is vinnana...

However, perhaps internal and external is just a stage (a mere
recollection) along the path, just as "there is dukkha", and "there is
cessation of dukkha". There is internal, there is external... there is
cessation of this perception "this is internal" and there is cessation
of this perception "this is external"... but then again, jhanas... and
well...

Time for jhana meditation... no time to waste! go go...

Meanwhile...
another rupa arises.

-manji-

PS:

Anguttara Nikaya IV.200: Pema Sutta (also Tanha Sutta)

This sutta is most auspicious at abolishing "I"... considering a
recollection, a mere hallucination of "do I do that?" once came up
during the very reading of the sutta; immediately it fell away.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sarah [mailto:Sarah]
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:56 AM
> Subject: Re: First Foundation of Mindfulness (Was: Re: [dsg] Merit
Making)

<snip>

> Something seen, heard, smelled and so on can refer to one's own *self*
or
> body or to objects outside oneself. In either case, the objects are
rupas
> which can be directly experienced-- even though later they are only
> concepts thought about as you suggest. Visible objects or sounds are
> merely rupas regardless of whether they are 'internal' or 'external'.

 
13687 From: Sarah   
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2002 3:20pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure

 
  Dear Victor,

 --- yuzhonghao  wrote: 

> > Each and every aggregate is not self.

We all agree.
 
> I find the statement "what we take for self are merely these 
> different phenomena" cryptic and vague.  Does it mean "self are 
> merely these different phenomena"?  Does everyone take the aggregates 
> for self?

It means that the self doesn’t exist but because of ignorance and wrong
view, the aggregates and the concepts about them are taken for self. With
regard to your second question, the answer is ‘yes’, everyone, unless we
have heard the teachings of the Buddha and developed an understanding of
namas and rupas (i.e. the aggregates).

> I am interested in what you have in mind about what we all say. 

I was referring to the various comments that different members make on
DSG.

I apologise for any comments of mine that were not clear or for any
suggestion that I was suggesting what you were suggesting.....;-)

I’m under doctor’s orders to rest when I’m not teaching, so I think I will
leave any other points, re-reads of suttas and posts (inc. Manji’s -
thanks, Manji) to Kom & others ‘til after our trip. 

Sarah

p.s. Lucy, I may even check out England’s match this evening;-)
================================================



 
13688 From: asterix_wins   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 9:32am
Subject: Re: Friends.....

 
  dear sarah,

" 1. Ranil (an occasional poster on DSG) has just got married. We look
 forward to meeting him and his new bride when we visit Sri Lanka and 
wish
them joy and happiness. "


And now he is inviting his unmarried friends to join the married 
group! :o)



" 2. I spoke to Mike Nease by telephone a couple of days ago. He's 
well,
pretty upbeat and very busy doing several jobs. He's now in his own 
flat
and sends everyone his regards."


this is indeed great news from Sir Mike, .. 

rgds,
gayan

 
13689 From: Kenneth Ong   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 10:28am
Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept

 
  Hi Kom

> By reading the above statments, "you" have already subtly changed due to
> new
> accumulations.  The kamma that has caused the reading of this
> right/wrong
> explanation has already given its results (in seeing, etc.).  The
> accumulations in the past are pushing you to continue reading instead of
> just hitting the delete key (or hitting the delete key instead of just
> reading!).  The considerations of the dicussions (be in kusala/aksuala)
> are
> already being accumulated that surely will condition future similar
> dhamma
> to arise when the time comes.  There are no single agent that directs.
> There is only dhamma that will cause vipaka (and other kind of dhammas)
> in
> the future (kusala/akusala), vipakas tha are results of the past, and
> all
> those functional cittas that are occuring, passing away, all without
> anyone
> noticing them.
> 
> kom
> 


k:  We know that there is no single agent that directs but the
combinations of such agents leads us to a choose a volition be it either
kusala or akusala.  If there is no such "control" or volition, we will not
have gone into this computer and into this dsg group in yahoo.  There is a
control in a way but this control are conditions hence impermanent and non
self.  

kind regards
Ken O





 
13690 From: Kom Tukovinit   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 11:07am
Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept

 
  Dear Ken O,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kenneth Ong 
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 7:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept
>
>
>
> k:  We know that there is no single agent that directs but the
> combinations of such agents leads us to a choose a volition be it either
> kusala or akusala.  If there is no such "control" or volition, we will not
> have gone into this computer and into this dsg group in yahoo.  There is a
> control in a way but this control are conditions hence impermanent and non
> self.
>
> kind regards
> Ken O
>

I will leave this discussion for now, as our differences are somewhat clear.
Unless other people add to this thread, of course!

Thanks.

kom

 
13691 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 11:14am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Friends.....

 
  Gayan

Hi!

 --- asterix_wins  wrote: > dear sarah,
> 
> " 1. Ranil (an occasional poster on DSG) has just got married. We look
>  forward to meeting him and his new bride when we visit Sri Lanka and 
> wish
> them joy and happiness. "
> 
> 
> And now he is inviting his unmarried friends to join the married 
> group! :o)

Well, having been married for such a short time, that's understandable, I
suppose ;-))

Seriously though, let me say, based on what I know about the
preconceptions that some dhammikas have about the married life, that it
doesn't have to be negative to development of the path.  Indeed, quite the
opposite can be the case, in my experience ;-))

> " 2. I spoke to Mike Nease by telephone a couple of days ago. He's 
> well,
> pretty upbeat and very busy doing several jobs. He's now in his own 
> flat
> and sends everyone his regards."
> 
> 
> this is indeed great news from Sir Mike, .. 

Yes, we're all looking forward to his return when he's ready.
 
> rgds,
> gayan

Good to hear from you, Gayan, but sorry to learn we won't have the
pleasure of meeting you on this trip.  (Sometimes a partner can be a
positive influence in not allowing us to get so absorbed in our work that
we have no time to spend with our dhamma friends!!)

Jon
 


 
13692 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 4:56pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - internal and external (was, Merit Making)

 
  Larry

Thanks for bringing up this ever-perplexing subject, and my apologies for
taking time to get back to you (a very busy time at work right now).

--- <> wrote: > Jon, you wrote:
> "To my way of thinking, it is more important to have a better
> understanding of one's own citta than to concern ourselves with the
> quality of others' kusala."
> 
> This reminds me of a long held doubt concerning the meaning of
> "internally and externally" in the Satipatthana Sutta. The usual
> explanation for contemplating the body, for example, externally is that
> this means contemplating the body of another. This seems extremely
> unlikely to me. I don't see what a monk is doing contemplating the body
> of another in an empty hut. At the moment, I can think of two
> alternative explanations: observing the body from 'outside', like a
> mirror; or observing the body in space, similar to stage presence. Of
> the two, I think I prefer the second just because mirroring oneself is a
> little tricky and complicated. So observing the breath very closely
> would be observing internally and observing the breath in the space of
> this hut would be observing externally.
> 
> Do you, or anyone else, have any thoughts on this?
> 
> Larry

I don’t profess to have any particular knowledge of the Satipatthana
Sutta, but I find the commentary to be a real goldmine and I learn more
every time I go to it (Soma Thera’s ‘The Way of Mindfulness’ at
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#comment).

Here's how I understand the sutta as explained by the commentary.  I have
pasted below some extracts from the commentary that I find of particular
relevance here.

1. The mindfulness that is the 4 foundations/arousings of mindfulness is,
at its highest level, mindfulness of the aggregates.  In the section on
mindfulness of the body, this means mindfulness of the rupa aggregate.

2. While there is reflection on the parts of the body as an aspect of the
development of samatha, the mindfulness of satipatthana is not mindfulness
of ‘the body’ as such but of rupas in general (including of course the
rupas that are taken for the body).

3. Reference to ‘contemplating the body internally’ is a reference to
mindfulness of the rupas that are taken for one’s own body, ie., that are
taken for one’s breath, hair, skin etc.

4. Reference to ‘contemplating the body externally’ is a reference to
mindfulness of the rupas that are taken either for the body of another or
indeed for any ‘thing’ external to one’s own body.

To my understanding, the point being made with the internal/external
classification of the aggregates is that in an absolute (paramattha) sense
they are the same dhammas in either case.  The hardness one takes for
one’s own body is just the same as the hardness of another’s or indeed of
the floor.  But only mindfulness can directly perceive this to be so.

The commentary makes some useful distinctions at times between
contemplation on the body as an aspect of samatha bhavana and
contemplation on the body as an aspect of satipatthana.

Well, I hope you find something that interests you here, Larry.

Jon

Extracts from the Commentary.
[Passages in square brackets are my own interpolations]
A.  From the commentary to the section on the synopsis:
"In the body." In the corporeal group [i.e., rupa-khandha. or perhaps rupa
dhammas (vs. nama dhammas)]. The group of big and small corporeal
constituents, namely, things like hair of the head, hair of the body,
nails, and teeth, in the sense of a collection similar to a herd of
elephants, a concourse of chariots...
...
Because there is no contemplating of feeling [vedana-khandha],
consciousness [vinnana-khandha] nor mental objects [sankhara-khandha] in
the body, but just the contemplating of the body only, determination
through isolation is set forth by the pointing out of the way of
contemplating the body only in the property called the body [i.e.
'rupa-ness']. 
...
There can be nothing apart from the qualities of primary and derived
materiality [maha-bhuta rupas and upada rupas], in a body. 
...
The character of contemplating the collection of the hair of the head, the
hair of the body and the like is comparable to the seeing of the component
parts of a city [this I think is a reference to samatha bhavana]; and the
character of contemplating the collection of primary and derived
materiality is comparable to the separation of the leaf covering of a
plantain-trunk, or is like the opening of an empty fist [this I think is a
reference to satipatthana/vipassana bhavana]. 
Therefore, by the pointing out of the basis called the body in the form of
a collection in many ways, the sifting out thoroughly of the apparently
compact is shown.

B.  From the commentary to the section on mental objects:
Or in the contemplation on the body the laying hold of the aggregate of
corporeality or materiality [rupa-khandha] was spoken of by the Master; in
the contemplation on feeling, the laying hold of the aggregate of feeling
[vedana-khandha]; in the contemplation on mind, the laying hold of the
aggregate of consciousness [vinnana khandha]; and now in order to speak of
even the laying hold of the aggregates of perception and formations
[sanna-khandha and sankhara-khandha], he said "And, how, o bhikkhus," and
so forth...
<ends>




 
13693 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 5:05pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  Jim, Num, Kom, Sarah and All

Many thanks for your contributions on this thread and for taking the time
to get the relevant material.  I have enjoyed and benefited from it.  

On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the other
analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out our
faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be interested
in seeing that, too.

Jon 

 --- Jim Anderson  wrote: 
> Hi Jon,
> 
> To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for dust-rag.
> In
> Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry for
> dust-rag
> but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the same thing.
> The
> Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in the
> Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I don't have
> an
> English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I can see
> it
> in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in the fifth
> simile. Could this be what you have in mind?
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim


 
13694 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 5:16pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Ken O

 --- Kenneth Ong  wrote: 
> Hi Kom
> k:  We know that there is no single agent that directs but the
> combinations of such agents leads us to a choose a volition be it either
> kusala or akusala.  If there is no such "control" or volition, we will
> not
> have gone into this computer and into this dsg group in yahoo.  There is
> a
> control in a way but this control are conditions hence impermanent and
> non
> self.  

Perhaps it is just a difference of emphasis, Ken, but if the control is
subject to conditions and is impermanent/not-self, would you agree that
this makes it limited control (i.e. not full control)?

Jon


 
13695 From: Kenneth Ong   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 6:40pm
Subject: RE: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Hi Jon

Somehow I think I cannot define control properly in what I think.  To me 
there is no self that is controlling but there is an ability to choose.  
Without this ability to choose or to act, we will not have been able to go
into internet purposely and go into DSG.  What we choose definitely is
impermanent as its causes of such choice are impermanent and non self in
the first place.   We defintely do not have full control as we do not have
the ability to see each micro level of cittas and cetasikas.  Even if we
do see, such condition would have prevent us to do what is askusala.  It
is kind of complement, the more we are in satipatthana, the less
likelihood we would perform an act that is akusala.  The issue to have
full control, to me is not impt.  It is the ability to choose and
realising that there is no self in choosing is the most impt one.  I hope
I am not confusing you as I find it hard to explain this point as it
sounds contradictory.




Kind regards
Ken O






 --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: > Ken O
> 
>  --- Kenneth Ong  wrote: 
> > Hi Kom
> > k:  We know that there is no single agent that directs but the
> > combinations of such agents leads us to a choose a volition be it
> either
> > kusala or akusala.  If there is no such "control" or volition, we will
> > not
> > have gone into this computer and into this dsg group in yahoo.  There
> is
> > a
> > control in a way but this control are conditions hence impermanent and
> > non
> > self.  
> 
> Perhaps it is just a difference of emphasis, Ken, but if the control is
> subject to conditions and is impermanent/not-self, would you agree that
> this makes it limited control (i.e. not full control)?
> 
> Jon


 
13696 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 7:10pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  --
Dear Ken,
I think you are explaining it quite well.

There is intention but when we think about intention this is 
actually a very complex series 
of different dhammas - each conditioned - but we (for a long time) 
have taken this concantenation as a whole and (tend to) believe 
that 'we' are having intention. The first step, and many after, must 
be to see this illusion. Then there is still just as much intention 
as there ever was, but a slowly diminishing idea that 'I' am having 
intention or that there is any controller. there are 'controlling 
faculties' but they are  insubstantial and conditioned phenomena - 
they perform their functions without 'us' making them do such.
best wishes
robert
-  Kenneth Ong  wrote:
> Hi Jon
> 
> Somehow I think I cannot define control properly in what I think.  
To me 
> there is no self that is controlling but there is an ability to 
choose.  
> Without this ability to choose or to act, we will not have been 
able to go
> into internet purposely and go into DSG.  What we choose 
definitely is
> impermanent as its causes of such choice are impermanent and non 
self in
> the first place.   We defintely do not have full control as we do 
not have
> the ability to see each micro level of cittas and cetasikas.  Even 
if we
> do see, such condition would have prevent us to do what is 
askusala.  It
> is kind of complement, the more we are in satipatthana, the less
> likelihood we would perform an act that is akusala.  The issue to 
have
> full control, to me is not impt.  It is the ability to choose and
> realising that there is no self in choosing is the most impt one.  
I hope
> I am not confusing you as I find it hard to explain this point as 
it
> sounds contradictory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kind regards
> Ken O
>  --- Jonothan Abbott  wrote: > Ken O
> > 
> >  --- Kenneth Ong  wrote: 
> > > Hi Kom
> > > k:  We know that there is no single agent that directs but the
> > > combinations of such agents leads us to a choose a volition be 
it
> > either
> > > kusala or akusala.  If there is no such "control" or volition, 
we will
> > > not
> > > have gone into this computer and into this dsg group in 
yahoo.  There
> > is
> > > a
> > > control in a way but this control are conditions hence 
impermanent and
> > > non
> > > self.  
> > 
> > Perhaps it is just a difference of emphasis, Ken, but if the 
control is
> > subject to conditions and is impermanent/not-self, would you 
agree that
> > this makes it limited control (i.e. not full control)?
> > 
> > Jon


 
13697 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 7:14pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure - Dust-rag/doormat

 
  --- 
Dear Jon,
How the bodhistta reflecst when people do wrong to him: 
"If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the 
perfection of patience?" And: "Although he is a wrong-doer now, in 
the past he was my benefactor." And: "A wrong-doer is also a 
benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience." 
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
best wishes
robert

 Jonothan Abbott  wrote:
> Jim, Num, Kom, Sarah and All
> 
> Many thanks for your contributions on this thread and for taking 
the time
> to get the relevant material.  I have enjoyed and benefited from 
it.  
> 
> On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the 
other
> analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out 
our
> faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be 
interested
> in seeing that, too.
> 
> Jon 
> 
>  --- Jim Anderson  wrote: 
> > Hi Jon,
> > 
> > To find a reference one would need to know the Pali word for 
dust-rag.
> > In
> > Buddhadatta's English-Pali dictionary I couldn't find an entry 
for
> > dust-rag
> > but there is one for duster which I think is pretty much the 
same thing.
> > The
> > Pali word for duster is rajohara.na.m. It is found only twice in 
the
> > Tipitaka in the same sutta, the Sihanada Sutta (AN IX.11). I 
don't have
> > an
> > English translation handy and I couldnt't find one online but I 
can see
> > it
> > in the Pali. The passage on the duster or dust-rag is found in 
the fifth
> > simile. Could this be what you have in mind?
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim


 
13698 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 9:47pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Ken and Robert,

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train 
others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is 
self-control. 

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the 
protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that 
is hard to gain. 

See 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html

Regards,
Victor

---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --
> Dear Ken,
> I think you are explaining it quite well.
> 
> There is intention but when we think about intention this is 
> actually a very complex series 
> of different dhammas - each conditioned - but we (for a long time) 
> have taken this concantenation as a whole and (tend to) believe 
> that 'we' are having intention. The first step, and many after, 
must 
> be to see this illusion. Then there is still just as much intention 
> as there ever was, but a slowly diminishing idea that 'I' am having 
> intention or that there is any controller. there are 'controlling 
> faculties' but they are  insubstantial and conditioned phenomena - 
> they perform their functions without 'us' making them do such.
> best wishes
> robert
> -  Kenneth Ong  wrote:
> > Hi Jon
> > 
> > Somehow I think I cannot define control properly in what I 
think.  
> To me 
> > there is no self that is controlling but there is an ability to 
> choose.  
> > Without this ability to choose or to act, we will not have been 
> able to go
> > into internet purposely and go into DSG.  What we choose 
> definitely is
> > impermanent as its causes of such choice are impermanent and non 
> self in
> > the first place.   We defintely do not have full control as we do 
> not have
> > the ability to see each micro level of cittas and cetasikas.  
Even 
> if we
> > do see, such condition would have prevent us to do what is 
> askusala.  It
> > is kind of complement, the more we are in satipatthana, the less
> > likelihood we would perform an act that is akusala.  The issue to 
> have
> > full control, to me is not impt.  It is the ability to choose and
> > realising that there is no self in choosing is the most impt 
one.  
> I hope
> > I am not confusing you as I find it hard to explain this point as 
> it
> > sounds contradictory.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Ken O

 
13699 From: asterix_wins   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 10:42pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Friends.....

 
  dear jon,

> > And now he is inviting his unmarried friends to join the married 
> > group! :o)
> 
> Well, having been married for such a short time, that's 
understandable, I
> suppose ;-))


indeed,.. :oD


> 
> Seriously though, let me say, based on what I know about the
> preconceptions that some dhammikas have about the married life, 
that it
> doesn't have to be negative to development of the path.


seriously yes, it doesnt have to be a negativity,..
buddha's teachings about the god and goddess in a household come to 
mind..

>  Indeed, quite the
> opposite can be the case, in my experience ;-))


on a less serious note -> well, easy for you to say .. you have sarah
:o)

> 
> Yes, we're all looking forward to his return when he's ready.
>  

yes, even the appearence of phrase "m. nease" has a calming effect..
:o)


> 
> Good to hear from you, Gayan, but sorry to learn we won't have the
> pleasure of meeting you on this trip.  (Sometimes a partner can be a
> positive influence in not allowing us to get so absorbed in our 
work that
> we have no time to spend with our dhamma friends!!)
> 

as i said to sarah , i believe that it can be some bad kamma vipaka 
that I won't have the opportunity to meet my dhamma friends ,..


Hope I am catching up with my merit account,..
I have now got at least one bostonian to be interested in buddhism.

As you may know , the wonderful creator of accesstoinsight.org lives 
in Massachusetts, I hope to donate some to aid the hosting etc,..I 
will tell once I do that,.. so all can anumodana it.. ( thereby 
getting further bonuses to my merit credits )

:o)


rgds,
gayan

 
13700 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sat Jun 8, 2002 11:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Dear Victor,
 thanks for the quote. I think this is an example of conventional 
speech - as we have discussed on this list in the past. 
The Dhammapada (where your quotes come from) also explains anatta:


"The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
bhikkhus 
had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to one's 
control."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees 
this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 

At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus attained 
arahatship. ""
Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
best wishes
robert


 "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> Ken and Robert,
> 
> 159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would 
train 
> others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, 
is 
> self-control. 
> 
> 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the 
> protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery 
that 
> is hard to gain. 
> 
> See 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html
> 
> Regards,
> Victor
> 
> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
>  wrote:
> > --
> > Dear Ken,
> > I think you are explaining it quite well.
> > 
> > There is intention but when we think about intention this is 
> > actually a very complex series 
> > of different dhammas - each conditioned - but we (for a long 
time) 
> > have taken this concantenation as a whole and (tend to) believe 
> > that 'we' are having intention. The first step, and many after, 
> must 
> > be to see this illusion. Then there is still just as much 
intention 
> > as there ever was, but a slowly diminishing idea that 'I' am 
having 
> > intention or that there is any controller. there 
are 'controlling 
> > faculties' but they are  insubstantial and conditioned 
phenomena - 
> > they perform their functions without 'us' making them do such.
> > best wishes
> > robert
> > -  Kenneth Ong  wrote:
> > > Hi Jon
> > > 
> > > Somehow I think I cannot define control properly in what I 
> think.  
> > To me 
> > > there is no self that is controlling but there is an ability 
to 
> > choose.  
> > > Without this ability to choose or to act, we will not have 
been 
> > able to go
> > > into internet purposely and go into DSG.  What we choose 
> > definitely is
> > > impermanent as its causes of such choice are impermanent and 
non 
> > self in
> > > the first place.   We defintely do not have full control as we 
do 
> > not have
> > > the ability to see each micro level of cittas and cetasikas.  
> Even 
> > if we
> > > do see, such condition would have prevent us to do what is 
> > askusala.  It
> > > is kind of complement, the more we are in satipatthana, the 
less
> > > likelihood we would perform an act that is akusala.  The issue 
to 
> > have
> > > full control, to me is not impt.  It is the ability to choose 
and
> > > realising that there is no self in choosing is the most impt 
> one.  
> > I hope
> > > I am not confusing you as I find it hard to explain this point 
as 
> > it
> > > sounds contradictory.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Kind regards
> > > Ken O

 
13701 From: <> 
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 2:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - internal and external (was, Merit Making)

 
  Hi Jon, re: internal/external, I was just using the breath as, what I
thought, would be a convincing example.

So, I'm not clear on what your view is when you wrote:

"To my way of thinking, it is more important to have a better
understanding of one's own citta than to concern ourselves with the
quality of others' kusala."

Is the kusala of others an 'external' citta one should contemplate or
not?

It has been my experience that satipatthana is completely self centered.
I would think anything else would be something like a science and not 
condusive to liberation.

Larry

 
13702 From: <> 
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 3:54am
Subject: RE: [dsg] attachment to concept

 
  Hi all, one way to solve this puzzle (control/no control) and similar
questions is to consider it to be a "middle way" question. That is a
matter of finding the middle way between eternalism and nihilism (not
the middle way between sensual indulgence and self mortification or the
middle way between too tight and too loose). This attempt to find the
exact precise  middle way has led to endless hairsplitting. A more
satisfactory answer can be found in the wording of the second noble
truth:

"This, O bhikkhus, is the Noble Truth of the origin of suffering: It is
craving that produces rebirth, bound up with pleasure and greed. It
finds delight in this and that, in other words, craving for sense
pleasure, craving for existence or becoming, and craving for
nonexistence or self-annihilation." 

I read this to mean that craving for control, for example, or craving
for no control each produces rebirth and consequent dukkha. The heart of
the problem is the craving and the solution is to eradicate that rather
than finding a balance between control and no control. However one
understands the khandhas, they are the antithesis of nibbana. 

Larry

 
13703 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 5:32am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,


Ask yourself this:

Is what is being said in these two verses

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train 
others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is 
self-control. 

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the 
protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that 
is hard to gain. 

true?



---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> Dear Victor,
>  thanks for the quote. I think this is an example of conventional 
> speech - as we have discussed on this list in the past. 
> The Dhammapada (where your quotes come from) also explains anatta:
> 
> 
> "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> bhikkhus 
> had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to one's 
> control."




Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?

See

277. "All conditioned things are impermanent" -- when one sees this 
with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to 
purification. 

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" -- when one sees 
this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to 
purification. 

279. "All things are not-self" -- when one sees this with wisdom, one 
turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.
 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/20.html



> 
> Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one 
sees 
> this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
> khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> 
> At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus 
attained 
> arahatship. ""
> Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
> Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
> best wishes
> robert
> 
> 
>  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > Ken and Robert,
> > 
> > 159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would 
> train 
> > others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, 
> is 
> > self-control. 
> > 
> > 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the 
> > protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery 
> that 
> > is hard to gain. 
> > 
> > See 
> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> > 
> > ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
> >  wrote:

 
13704 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 9:49am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  --- 
---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > 
> > 
> > "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> > bhikkhus 
> > had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> > during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> > khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
one's 
> > control."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?
> 
> Dear Victor, 
Here is the link I took this from. It was published by The Burma 
Pitaka society
http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/dmpada2j.htm#277279
The original section I posted carried on 

"Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees 
this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 

At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus attained 
arahatship. ""
Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
best wishes
robert

 
13705 From: sukinderpal   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 5:17pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Dear Ken O, Victor and all,

Perhaps another way of looking at this issue about 'control' and 
'no control' is to consider an ariyan. An ariyan cannot have those 
dhammas arise which will make him break the precepts, meaning he 
cannot now become a worldling. Is it a question of choice? I think not.
It is just that those dhammas don't arise in relation to his accumulations.
Does he therefore have less 'power' to control than us worldlings. I think
not, because 'no one' has any power over any dhamma since there
is no 'one' anywhere.
We as worldlings are 'powered' mostly by our kilesas, whereas the
ariyan by his accumulated panna and at the moment of any activity
sati and panna just perform their functions as impersonally as our avija
do when conditions for it to arise, arises. 
Except in the case of the ariyan, his cittas have more power than ours, 
because they comprise of more no. of cetasikas than do akusala cittas.
Hope this helps.

Best,
Sukin.

---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> > > bhikkhus 
> > > had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> > > during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> > > khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
> one's 
> > > control."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?
> > 
> > Dear Victor, 
> Here is the link I took this from. It was published by The Burma 
> Pitaka society
> http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/dmpada2j.htm#277279
> The original section I posted carried on 
> 
> "Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one 
sees 
> this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
> khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> 
> At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus attained 
> arahatship. ""
> Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
> Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
> best wishes
> robert

 
13706 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding of realities (was, Samatha bhavana)

 
  Rob Ep

--- Robert Epstein  wrote: > Hi Jon,
> Long time to get back to you on this.
> Can you say a word on how the understanding of realities of the present
> moment
> lead to the realisation of the Noble Eightfold Path?
> 
> I see that you say that this is the most difficult aspect of the dhamma
> to come to
> terms with, and it seems that I cannot always make the connection
> between
> discernment of realities and how this leads to the Noble Eightfold Path.
> 
> I agree that this is a most fruitful area for discussion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert Ep.

The question is the connection between the discernment of realities and
the Noble Eightfold Path.  Here is the way I see it.

Firstly, what is the Noble Eightfold Path?  According to the ancient
texts, the Noble Eightfold Path is a moment of enlightenment or
supramundane consciousness, i.e., the moment of consciousness at which
nibbana is experienced.  There are 4 of these, representing the 4 stages
of enlightenment, starting with stream-entry.  'Stream-entry' mean the
same as entry onto the Noble Eightfold Path ('path' and 'stream' are
synonyms here).

What is enlightenment (and enlightenment as to what)?  Enlightenment can
be explained in a number of ways, but its essence is, I believe,
understanding of (=enlightenment as to) the true nature of phenomena and
their 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta, and of the Four
Noble Truths.

How is the understanding of phenomena and their 3 characteristics
developed?  It begins with the development of awareness of the presently
arising phenomena.  With awareness of phenomena comes understanding of the
true nature of phenomena.

This, in a nutshell, is the connection.

I would like to add bit more detail about enlightenment, because I think
it is helpful to understand more about it.

As I indicated above, a moment of enlightenment is marked by or is
associated with the occurrence of a number of things.  The ones that come
to mind are:
-  the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are penetrated
-  the 37 bodhi-pakkhiya dhamma (factors pertaining to enlightenment)
arise simultaneously
-  the Four Noble Truths are realised
-  certain kilesas are eradicated (or attenuated)
-  the Noble Eightfold Path is attained
-  nibbana is experienced as an object of the consciousness (i.e.,
supramundane/magga citta)

It may be helpful to bear in mind that, while enlightenment is a
transcendent moment, it can also be seen as just another incremental
increase in the understanding that has been developed previously.  In this
sense it flows naturally from the understanding of the true nature of
phenomena.

I have pasted below a passage from the very beginning of the Satipatthana
Sutta and commentary that give textual support for the direct connection
between satipatthana (awareness of phenomena/realities) and the Noble
Eightfold Path.

Jon

From 'The Way of Mindfulness'
Satipatthana Sutta:
'Thus have I heard. 
'At one time the Blessed One was living in the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, a
market-town of the Kuru people. 
'Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only
way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of
sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, **for
reaching the right path**, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four
Arousings of Mindfulness."' 

Commentary:
'"For reaching the right path." The Noble Eightfold Path is called the
right path. This preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness
maintained (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the
Supramundane Way.'



 
13707 From: alfariqzahani   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:20pm
Subject: Impermanence of the Citta

 
  Is there any sutta which explicitly says that citta is anicca?

I know that in the Anguttara Nikaya it rapidly changes - which 
implies impermanence - but I'm looking for a passage which flat-out 
says that the citta is anicca.

And, if there isn't a sutta which says that, is there a specific 
reason? I read in the Visuddhimagga that mano & citta were synonyms. 

thanks.

 
13708 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 7:48pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta

 
  --- 
Dhammapada 277
Five hundred bhikkhus, after receiving their subject of meditation 
from the Buddha, went into the forest to practise meditation, but 
they made little progress. So, they returned to the Buddha to ask 
for another subject of meditation which would suit them better. On 
reflection, the Buddha found that those bhikkhus had, during the 
time of Kassapa Buddha, meditated on impermanence. So, he 
said, "Bhikkhus, all conditioned phenomena are subject to change and 
decay and are therefore impermanent."

         Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

         Verse 277. "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent 
(anicca)"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary 
of dukkha,(i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 

         best wishes
robert
 "alfariqzahani"  wrote:
> Is there any sutta which explicitly says that citta is anicca?
> 
> I know that in the Anguttara Nikaya it rapidly changes - which 
> implies impermanence - but I'm looking for a passage which flat-
out 
> says that the citta is anicca.
> 
> And, if there isn't a sutta which says that, is there a specific 
> reason? I read in the Visuddhimagga that mano & citta were 
synonyms. 
> 
> thanks.

 
 
13709 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 8:14pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  --- 
Khandhasamyutta 159(10)Ananda
Tam kim maññasi, Ananda,  viññanam niccam va aniccam 
va"ti? "Aniccam, bhante". 
What do you think, Ananda is consciousness permanent or impermanent? 
Impermanent, venerable sir. (Vinnana, mano and citta are synonyms).

...........Evam passam…pe… naparam itthattayati pajanati"ti. Dasamam
Seeing( passam)thus (evam) he understands(pajanati)  there is no 
more for this state of being (itthatta).
best wishes
robert

 "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> Dhammapada 277
> Five hundred bhikkhus, after receiving their subject of meditation 
> from the Buddha, went into the forest to practise meditation, but 
> they made little progress. So, they returned to the Buddha to ask 
> for another subject of meditation which would suit them better. On 
> reflection, the Buddha found that those bhikkhus had, during the 
> time of Kassapa Buddha, meditated on impermanence. So, he 
> said, "Bhikkhus, all conditioned phenomena are subject to change 
and 
> decay and are therefore impermanent."
> 
>          Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> 
>          Verse 277. "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent 
> (anicca)"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes 
weary 
> of dukkha,(i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> 
>

 
13710 From: jonoabb   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Antidotes to lobha

 
  Lucy

---  "Lucy"  wrote:
> Hello Jon
...
> > Having the objective of having less kilesa in our life now is, I 
believe,
> to fall
> > into the trap of expectations.  It inevitably inclines us to a form 
of
> practice that
> > involves suppression in one form or another.
> 
> Not sure I follow your argument correctly. I understand that the 
awareness
> + understanding itself is the development of the path and that 
the object
> of that awareness could be of just about anything - even a 
murder..
> presumably. But doesn't that  awareness + understanding 
influence what a
> coming set of actions or behaviour is going to be? Suppose 
you become aware
> of strong lobha towards an object - do you leave things there ? 
Then the
> next time the object appears, the same strong lobha crops up 
and you're
> again snared. Isn't it that when the understanding arises one 
becomes
> determined to be free from strong lobha sometime? I'm 
oversimplifying,
> things are rarely so simple  - all seems to be a lot more 
indirect and many
> more factors are involved so there's rarely a 1 - 1 relation. The 
point is,
> though, that the understanding leads to some change of 
behaviour (whether
> we do this knowingly and willingly or not !) - In Mahayana, 
aspiration is
> given a lot of emphasis, as you know, so I try to keep it at the 
front of
> my brain a much as possible - but I don't think aspiration is at 
all
> lacking in Theravada, only that there is less fuss made of it : )

When it is said that understanding is itself the development of 
the path, this means that it is already performing the function of 
helping to eradicate akusala in the long term, without the need 
for further conscious effort on our part to achieve that.  So in a 
sense, the idea that understanding are a factor leading to be free 
from akusala is really to overlook the function that the path 
moments perform.

> > It's training only if it's kusala and, in particular, if it's right view
> :-).
> >
> 
> Yes, agree there. By offering anything with a view  to rebirth in a 
deva
> realm (or even with the aim of liberation !), one is up for a great
> disappointment some time soon. But there is the training that 
happens
> little by little and through which one ends up doing things (like 
offering)
> or avoiding doing things just for the joy of it.  Not for "storing 
merit"
> or even for mind purification - but because it feels the only way 
there is.
> For instance, none of us would go out with a gun to kill ducks - 
it's
> unthinkable, isn't it? Another example, if someone in need 
comes to ask us
> for food we would immediately and without any second thought 
share our
> meal, or give it all away - not to do so would also be 
unthinkable.... ....
> .... But this stage hasn't arrived out of nothing and it isn't 
common to
> all humans, I think it is the result of a long process of training 
and
> purification - which isn't "mine" but manifests as this "me" for 
the time
> being.  And one can project this to those habits that appear in 
citta now
> (and that's all they are, bad habits!) and take up training in 
some way
> with the idea of freeing citta from them ... because the idea of 
freeing
> citta from them feels like the only way to go !
> 
> Not sure I'm being clear - What I try to say is that the 
awareness leads to
> understanding, the understanding leads to aspiration + 
determination (where
> "effort" is probably involved) and, eventually, change of a trend 
of
> behaviour patterns (a change of MIND !!!). This isn't me or 
mine, but it's
> ongoing and has been forever.  Perhaps this is what you're 
saying too, but
> you make it sound too easy !  : (

To my reading of the texts, awareness can lead to 
understanding, and understanding is the key because ignorance 
is the root of all kilesa and the single underlying reason for our 
being bound in the cycle of birth and death.  With understanding 
of the true nature of realties comes the gradual eradication of 
kilesa.  Although this is a simpler model than yours, there's still 
nothing easy about it!

Jon

 
13711 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,

In the reference you have given, is the quote 

"The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred bhikkhus 
had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to one's 
control."

from Dhammapada?

Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a discourse in the 
Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 

1. there is control.
 
2. there is no control. 

3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is subject 
to one's control.

4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
subject to one's control.

Regards,
Victor

---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> > > bhikkhus 
> > > had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> > > during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, 
all 
> > > khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
> one's 
> > > control."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?
> > 
> > Dear Victor, 
> Here is the link I took this from. It was published by The Burma 
> Pitaka society
> http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/dmpada2j.htm#277279
> The original section I posted carried on 
> 
> "Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one 
sees 
> this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
> khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> 
> At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus 
attained 
> arahatship. ""
> Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
> Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
> best wishes
> robert

 
13712 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 10:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Sukin,

See

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train 
others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is 
self-control. 

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the 
protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that 
is hard to gain. 

in
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html

Ask yourself if what is being said in the two verses above true.

Regard,
Victor

---  "sukinderpal"  wrote:
> Dear Ken O, Victor and all,
> 
> Perhaps another way of looking at this issue about 'control' and 
> 'no control' is to consider an ariyan. An ariyan cannot have those 
> dhammas arise which will make him break the precepts, meaning he 
> cannot now become a worldling. Is it a question of choice? I think 
not.
> It is just that those dhammas don't arise in relation to his 
accumulations.
> Does he therefore have less 'power' to control than us worldlings. 
I think
> not, because 'no one' has any power over any dhamma since there
> is no 'one' anywhere.
> We as worldlings are 'powered' mostly by our kilesas, whereas the
> ariyan by his accumulated panna and at the moment of any activity
> sati and panna just perform their functions as impersonally as our 
avija
> do when conditions for it to arise, arises. 
> Except in the case of the ariyan, his cittas have more power than 
ours, 
> because they comprise of more no. of cetasikas than do akusala 
cittas.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Best,
> Sukin.

 
13713 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure -

 
  Dhammapada, Ch VI, vs 76, 77; (translation of Ven. Narada):

76. Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points out
faults and reproves, let one associate with such a wise person; it will be
better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one.
77. Let him advise, instruct, and dissuade one from evil; truly pleasing is
he to the good, displeasing is he to the bad.

Nina. 

op 08-06-2002 11:05 schreef Jonothan Abbott op Jon:
Jon wrote:
> 
> On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the other
> analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out our
> faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be interested
> in seeing that, too.

 
13714 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 10:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a discourse in 
the 
> Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
>  1. there is control.
>  2. there is no control. 
> 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
subject 
> to one's control.
> 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> subject to one's control.
> Regards,
> Victor
___________
Dear Victor,
Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta

"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would 
not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with 
regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' 
But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-
ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this 
form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'
"Feeling is not self...
"Perception is not self...
"[Mental] fabrications are not self...
"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this 
consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be 
possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But 
precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends 
itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
not be thus.'

http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm
best wishes
robert

 
13715 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 0:29am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  --- ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> In the reference you have given, is the quote 
> 
> "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
bhikkhus 
> had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
one's 
> control."

> from Dhammapada?
________________
Dear Victor,
The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada 
attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,  
 Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the background 
story.
I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to study 
the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.

 The Buddha said (my translation):
279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati; 
atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.

All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).

The commentary says:
Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.

Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates 
(pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).

 Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati 
avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho. 

Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
(miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase 
vattetum na).
In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of 
self (attasuñña ).
I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" Maybe 
Jim or Nina know it.

Anattalakkhanavatthu catuttham.
The 4 fundamental characteristics  of anatta.
best wishes
robert

 
13716 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 0:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,

Read the discourse you quoted very carefully.  Did the Buddha state 
any of the following:

1. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is subject 
to one's control.

2. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
subject to one's control.

?


Regards,
Victor


---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a discourse 
in 
> the 
> > Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
> >  1. there is control.
> >  2. there is no control. 
> > 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> subject 
> > to one's control.
> > 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> > subject to one's control.
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> ___________
> Dear Victor,
> Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
> Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
> 
> "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would 
> not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with 
> regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' 
> But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-
> ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let 
this 
> form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'
> "Feeling is not self...
> "Perception is not self...
> "[Mental] fabrications are not self...
> "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this 
> consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be 
> possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
> consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But 
> precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends 
> itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
> consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
> not be thus.'
> 
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm
> best wishes
> robert

 
13717 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Hi all, yet another way to look at this 'control' question is as
volition. Sometimes what we mean by control is volition. Some people
understand the sankhara khandha as volition or intention; Tilmann Vetter
renders it as 'impulse'; I would also include ignorance in sankhara
khandha. So we have ignorance, intention, and impulse coming together in
one khandha as the rocket launcher of kamma, i.e. paticcasamupadda. One
could also say that all the khandhas are sankhara in the sense of being
formations and that the activity of and state of formation is clinging
based on ignorance and causing kamma and dukkha.

All of these qualities arise impersonally and are very temporary but the
sense or meaning of 'formation' is 'self' and 'permanence'. And the
meaning of 'self' is 'control'. So whenever the Buddha says 'control
yourself' he is talking to people who see a self. And if they are wise,
they will follow his advice and control themselves. There is no point to
pretending to an insight you don't have, just because of a little book
learning.

However, by contemplating 'no control' one could gradually come to see
that there is no one in charge and ultimately nothing to be in charge
of. 

hope this is agreeable to all, Larry

 
13718 From: azita gill   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  --- Lucy  wrote: > > 
> > Only one for now: just HOW is the body / rupa
> appropriated ??? This isn't
> at all clear to me, is there a heap of rupa out
> there (where???) waiting to
> be taken by a nama (re-becoming) ? Doesn't this
> contradict what the Visdm.
> say about there not being a store of skandha out
> there waiting to be
> appropriated?   I can understand one citta being the
> cause for the next one
> to arise, and a succession of these going on
> endlessly since beginningless
> time ... but what about "matter"??? Is it out there
> following its own
> course? Why? How? What happens before a Big Bang
> when all matter may be
> condensed into a super-duper-atom about to become a
> Universe? And why does
> Dependent Origination say that "name-and-form"
> arises in dependence upon
> "consciousness"??? It doesn't say that rupa is
> harvested by citta
> from among a selection of rupa following its own
> course somewhere else - or
> does it? And how come that the birth citta manages
> to find itself a chunk
> of rupa (genes, parents, environment, etc.) that is
> exactly suitable to its
> ripening karma  and to the death citta ... Has
> anyone worked out the
> mathematical /
> probability implications of this?
> 
> Lucy
>      dear Lucy,      I will attempt to answer this
one.   Asyou say, citta arises and falls away,  ever
so rapidly, may I add.  the cittas that are happening
now, that we take for "me", "mine" are no different to
the death consciousness  and the rebirth
consciousness.
> At moment of rebirth, the citta arises along with a
new set of rupa, this rupa is not 'hanging around'
waiting for a citta.  Infact, each rupa only lasts for
about 17 cittas.  The conditions which brings these
together are too complicated for us to know, this is
the realm of Buddha knowledge, what we can know,
theoretically that is, is that kamma is certainly one
of these conditions.    If we were arahats, fully
enlightened beings, no more kamma would be made and
after death consciousness, no more becoming, no more
conditions for becoming.   
>    sometimes the answers we are looking for cannot
be found, at least not until we have developed more
understanding of the present moment, because this
present moment is just name and form, nama and rupa,
citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away,
very rapidly, and we because of ignorance,avijja, not
knowing, we take it all for self.
>        I hope I have helped a little, Lucy
>                 Cheers,  Azita
> 
> 
>  


 
13719 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:28am
Subject: ADL break

 
  Dear group, 
Since several people are out of town I thought we could wait a week to
start the next chapter of ADL. Also, I'm having trouble grasping these
last two chapters on patisandhi-citta so maybe we could use this time
for review and bring up any lingering questions, views, or obscurations. 

ok?, Larry

 
13720 From: alfariqzahani   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 4:33pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> Khandhasamyutta 159(10)Ananda
> Tam kim maññasi, Ananda,  viññanam niccam va aniccam 
> va"ti? "Aniccam, bhante". 
> What do you think, Ananda is consciousness permanent or 
impermanent? 
> Impermanent, venerable sir. (Vinnana, mano and citta are synonyms).
> 


Ok, recently a fellow told me that absolutely no where in the Suttas 
was citta ever said to be anicca or anatta. Hence, he believes it's 
a permanent self. I couldn't disagree more. :)  

I've read that, in the Anguttara-Nikaya that the citta is rapidly 
changing - this supports the traditional view and what I've been 
reading in my Visuddhimagga. 

But I do wonder why, if mano & vinnana are referenced specifically 
as anicca, why isn't citta? I'm thinking it there might be a 
linguistic reason, but I'm not sure. For example, citta 
means 'heart' correct? And saying the 'heart is transient' is not 
quite as smooth as saying 'mind is transient'. But, this is just 
speculation. 

Is there a sutta where the word citta is substituted for mano or 
vinnana so that I can demonstrate conclusively that it is a synonym?

Thanks.

 
13721 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
 Read the discourse you quoted very carefully.  Did the Buddha state 
> any of the following:
> 1. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
subject 
> to one's control.
> 2. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> subject to one's control.

Dear Victor,
It certainly doesn't say or indicate #1 in your samples above.
I think it is synonymous with #2  
> form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> subject to one's control.

The sutta says: 

"...precisely because consciousness (feeling, perception, 
formations, form) is not self.... it is not possible [to say] with 
regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my 
consciousness 
not be thus.'""

best wishes
robert

> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
>  wrote:
> > ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a 
discourse 
> in 
> > the 
> > > Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
> > >  1. there is control.
> > >  2. there is no control. 
> > > 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> > subject 
> > > to one's control.
> > > 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
not 
> > > subject to one's control.
> > > Regards,
> > > Victor
> > ___________
> > Dear Victor,
> > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
> > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
> > 
>

 
13722 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  Bhikkhus as to that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana- the 
uninstructed worldling is unable to experiance revulsion(nibbinditum) towards 
it.For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by 
him,appropriated and grasped thus:'This is mine,This I am ,This is my Atta'
It would be better,Bhikkhus for the uninstructed worldling to take as atta 
this body composed of the 4 great elements rather than the citta. For what 
reason? Because this body composed of the 4 great elements is seen standing 
for one year,for two years,for three,four ,five or ten years,for 20,30 40 or 
50 years,for 100 years, or even longer. But that which is called Citta and 
Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and night.  
 Samyutta 12:61:Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi
   


In a message dated 10/06/02 18:34:13 E. Australia Standard Time, 
<> writes:


> Ok, recently a fellow told me that absolutely no where in the Suttas 
> was citta ever said to be anicca or anatta. Hence, he believes it's 
> a permanent self. I couldn't disagree more. :)  
> 
> I've read that, in the Anguttara-Nikaya that the citta is rapidly 
> changing - this supports the traditional view and what I've been 
> reading in my Visuddhimagga. 
> 
> But I do wonder why, if mano & vinnana are referenced specifically 
> as anicca, why isn't citta? I'm thinking it there might be a 
> linguistic reason, but I'm not sure. For example, citta 
> means 'heart' correct? And saying the 'heart is transient' is not 
> quite as smooth as saying 'mind is transient'. But, this is just 
> speculation. 
> 
> Is there a sutta where the word citta is substituted for mano or 
> vinnana so that I can demonstrate conclusively that it is a synonym?
> 
> Thanks. 
> 




 
13723 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 6:44pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  --- -  "alfariqzahani"  
> 
> But I do wonder why, if mano & vinnana are referenced specifically 
> as anicca, why isn't citta? I'm thinking it there might be a 
> linguistic reason, but I'm not sure. For example, citta 
> means 'heart' correct? And saying the 'heart is transient' is not 
> quite as smooth as saying 'mind is transient'. But, this is just 
> speculation. 
> 
> Is there a sutta where the word citta is substituted for mano or 
> vinnana so that I can demonstrate conclusively that it is a 
synonym?

____________
Dear Friend,

The pali word for heart is haddaya.
Like most languages pali has synonyms.
The Visuddimagga XIV (82) says: "The words vinnana, citta and mano 
are one in meaning"
Suan Lu Zaw, a member of this group, has written more about this at 
www.bodhiology.com
hope that helps your friend.
best wishes
robert

 
 
13709 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 8:14pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  --- 
Khandhasamyutta 159(10)Ananda
Tam kim maññasi, Ananda,  viññanam niccam va aniccam 
va"ti? "Aniccam, bhante". 
What do you think, Ananda is consciousness permanent or impermanent? 
Impermanent, venerable sir. (Vinnana, mano and citta are synonyms).

...........Evam passam…pe… naparam itthattayati pajanati"ti. Dasamam
Seeing( passam)thus (evam) he understands(pajanati)  there is no 
more for this state of being (itthatta).
best wishes
robert

 "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> Dhammapada 277
> Five hundred bhikkhus, after receiving their subject of meditation 
> from the Buddha, went into the forest to practise meditation, but 
> they made little progress. So, they returned to the Buddha to ask 
> for another subject of meditation which would suit them better. On 
> reflection, the Buddha found that those bhikkhus had, during the 
> time of Kassapa Buddha, meditated on impermanence. So, he 
> said, "Bhikkhus, all conditioned phenomena are subject to change 
and 
> decay and are therefore impermanent."
> 
>          Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> 
>          Verse 277. "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent 
> (anicca)"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes 
weary 
> of dukkha,(i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> 
>

 
13710 From: jonoabb   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 8:21pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Antidotes to lobha

 
  Lucy

---  "Lucy"  wrote:
> Hello Jon
...
> > Having the objective of having less kilesa in our life now is, I 
believe,
> to fall
> > into the trap of expectations.  It inevitably inclines us to a form 
of
> practice that
> > involves suppression in one form or another.
> 
> Not sure I follow your argument correctly. I understand that the 
awareness
> + understanding itself is the development of the path and that 
the object
> of that awareness could be of just about anything - even a 
murder..
> presumably. But doesn't that  awareness + understanding 
influence what a
> coming set of actions or behaviour is going to be? Suppose 
you become aware
> of strong lobha towards an object - do you leave things there ? 
Then the
> next time the object appears, the same strong lobha crops up 
and you're
> again snared. Isn't it that when the understanding arises one 
becomes
> determined to be free from strong lobha sometime? I'm 
oversimplifying,
> things are rarely so simple  - all seems to be a lot more 
indirect and many
> more factors are involved so there's rarely a 1 - 1 relation. The 
point is,
> though, that the understanding leads to some change of 
behaviour (whether
> we do this knowingly and willingly or not !) - In Mahayana, 
aspiration is
> given a lot of emphasis, as you know, so I try to keep it at the 
front of
> my brain a much as possible - but I don't think aspiration is at 
all
> lacking in Theravada, only that there is less fuss made of it : )

When it is said that understanding is itself the development of 
the path, this means that it is already performing the function of 
helping to eradicate akusala in the long term, without the need 
for further conscious effort on our part to achieve that.  So in a 
sense, the idea that understanding are a factor leading to be free 
from akusala is really to overlook the function that the path 
moments perform.

> > It's training only if it's kusala and, in particular, if it's right view
> :-).
> >
> 
> Yes, agree there. By offering anything with a view  to rebirth in a 
deva
> realm (or even with the aim of liberation !), one is up for a great
> disappointment some time soon. But there is the training that 
happens
> little by little and through which one ends up doing things (like 
offering)
> or avoiding doing things just for the joy of it.  Not for "storing 
merit"
> or even for mind purification - but because it feels the only way 
there is.
> For instance, none of us would go out with a gun to kill ducks - 
it's
> unthinkable, isn't it? Another example, if someone in need 
comes to ask us
> for food we would immediately and without any second thought 
share our
> meal, or give it all away - not to do so would also be 
unthinkable.... ....
> .... But this stage hasn't arrived out of nothing and it isn't 
common to
> all humans, I think it is the result of a long process of training 
and
> purification - which isn't "mine" but manifests as this "me" for 
the time
> being.  And one can project this to those habits that appear in 
citta now
> (and that's all they are, bad habits!) and take up training in 
some way
> with the idea of freeing citta from them ... because the idea of 
freeing
> citta from them feels like the only way to go !
> 
> Not sure I'm being clear - What I try to say is that the 
awareness leads to
> understanding, the understanding leads to aspiration + 
determination (where
> "effort" is probably involved) and, eventually, change of a trend 
of
> behaviour patterns (a change of MIND !!!). This isn't me or 
mine, but it's
> ongoing and has been forever.  Perhaps this is what you're 
saying too, but
> you make it sound too easy !  : (

To my reading of the texts, awareness can lead to 
understanding, and understanding is the key because ignorance 
is the root of all kilesa and the single underlying reason for our 
being bound in the cycle of birth and death.  With understanding 
of the true nature of realties comes the gradual eradication of 
kilesa.  Although this is a simpler model than yours, there's still 
nothing easy about it!

Jon

 
13711 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 9:58pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,

In the reference you have given, is the quote 

"The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred bhikkhus 
had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to one's 
control."

from Dhammapada?

Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a discourse in the 
Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 

1. there is control.
 
2. there is no control. 

3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is subject 
to one's control.

4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
subject to one's control.

Regards,
Victor

---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> > > bhikkhus 
> > > had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> > > during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, 
all 
> > > khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
> one's 
> > > control."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?
> > 
> > Dear Victor, 
> Here is the link I took this from. It was published by The Burma 
> Pitaka society
> http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/dmpada2j.htm#277279
> The original section I posted carried on 
> 
> "Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one 
sees 
> this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
> khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> 
> At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus 
attained 
> arahatship. ""
> Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
> Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
> best wishes
> robert

 
13712 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 10:03pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Sukin,

See

159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train 
others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is 
self-control. 

160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the 
protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that 
is hard to gain. 

in
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html

Ask yourself if what is being said in the two verses above true.

Regard,
Victor

---  "sukinderpal"  wrote:
> Dear Ken O, Victor and all,
> 
> Perhaps another way of looking at this issue about 'control' and 
> 'no control' is to consider an ariyan. An ariyan cannot have those 
> dhammas arise which will make him break the precepts, meaning he 
> cannot now become a worldling. Is it a question of choice? I think 
not.
> It is just that those dhammas don't arise in relation to his 
accumulations.
> Does he therefore have less 'power' to control than us worldlings. 
I think
> not, because 'no one' has any power over any dhamma since there
> is no 'one' anywhere.
> We as worldlings are 'powered' mostly by our kilesas, whereas the
> ariyan by his accumulated panna and at the moment of any activity
> sati and panna just perform their functions as impersonally as our 
avija
> do when conditions for it to arise, arises. 
> Except in the case of the ariyan, his cittas have more power than 
ours, 
> because they comprise of more no. of cetasikas than do akusala 
cittas.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Best,
> Sukin.

 
13713 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 10:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pointing us to treasure -

 
  Dhammapada, Ch VI, vs 76, 77; (translation of Ven. Narada):

76. Should one see a wise man, who, like a revealer of treasures, points out
faults and reproves, let one associate with such a wise person; it will be
better, not worse, for him who associates with such a one.
77. Let him advise, instruct, and dissuade one from evil; truly pleasing is
he to the good, displeasing is he to the bad.

Nina. 

op 08-06-2002 11:05 schreef Jonothan Abbott op Jon:
Jon wrote:
> 
> On the same general subject, if anyone has the reference to the other
> analogy in Christine's original post (of the person who points out our
> faults being regarded as pointing us to treasure), I would be interested
> in seeing that, too.

 
13714 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 10:13pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a discourse in 
the 
> Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
>  1. there is control.
>  2. there is no control. 
> 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
subject 
> to one's control.
> 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> subject to one's control.
> Regards,
> Victor
___________
Dear Victor,
Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta

"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would 
not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with 
regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' 
But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-
ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this 
form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'
"Feeling is not self...
"Perception is not self...
"[Mental] fabrications are not self...
"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this 
consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be 
possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But 
precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends 
itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
not be thus.'

http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm
best wishes
robert

 
13715 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 0:29am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  --- ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> In the reference you have given, is the quote 
> 
> "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
bhikkhus 
> had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
one's 
> control."

> from Dhammapada?
________________
Dear Victor,
The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada 
attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,  
 Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the background 
story.
I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to study 
the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.

 The Buddha said (my translation):
279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati; 
atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.

All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).

The commentary says:
Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.

Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates 
(pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).

 Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati 
avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho. 

Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
(miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase 
vattetum na).
In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of 
self (attasuñña ).
I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" Maybe 
Jim or Nina know it.

Anattalakkhanavatthu catuttham.
The 4 fundamental characteristics  of anatta.
best wishes
robert

 
13716 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 0:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,

Read the discourse you quoted very carefully.  Did the Buddha state 
any of the following:

1. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is subject 
to one's control.

2. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
subject to one's control.

?


Regards,
Victor


---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a discourse 
in 
> the 
> > Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
> >  1. there is control.
> >  2. there is no control. 
> > 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> subject 
> > to one's control.
> > 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> > subject to one's control.
> > Regards,
> > Victor
> ___________
> Dear Victor,
> Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
> Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
> 
> "Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would 
> not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with 
> regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' 
> But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-
> ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let 
this 
> form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'
> "Feeling is not self...
> "Perception is not self...
> "[Mental] fabrications are not self...
> "Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this 
> consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be 
> possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
> consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But 
> precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends 
> itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
> consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
> not be thus.'
> 
> http://www.abhidhamma.org/samyutta_nikaya_59xxii.htm
> best wishes
> robert

 
13717 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:08am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Hi all, yet another way to look at this 'control' question is as
volition. Sometimes what we mean by control is volition. Some people
understand the sankhara khandha as volition or intention; Tilmann Vetter
renders it as 'impulse'; I would also include ignorance in sankhara
khandha. So we have ignorance, intention, and impulse coming together in
one khandha as the rocket launcher of kamma, i.e. paticcasamupadda. One
could also say that all the khandhas are sankhara in the sense of being
formations and that the activity of and state of formation is clinging
based on ignorance and causing kamma and dukkha.

All of these qualities arise impersonally and are very temporary but the
sense or meaning of 'formation' is 'self' and 'permanence'. And the
meaning of 'self' is 'control'. So whenever the Buddha says 'control
yourself' he is talking to people who see a self. And if they are wise,
they will follow his advice and control themselves. There is no point to
pretending to an insight you don't have, just because of a little book
learning.

However, by contemplating 'no control' one could gradually come to see
that there is no one in charge and ultimately nothing to be in charge
of. 

hope this is agreeable to all, Larry

 
13718 From: azita gill   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL ch. 10 (1) and so-on

 
  --- Lucy  wrote: > > 
> > Only one for now: just HOW is the body / rupa
> appropriated ??? This isn't
> at all clear to me, is there a heap of rupa out
> there (where???) waiting to
> be taken by a nama (re-becoming) ? Doesn't this
> contradict what the Visdm.
> say about there not being a store of skandha out
> there waiting to be
> appropriated?   I can understand one citta being the
> cause for the next one
> to arise, and a succession of these going on
> endlessly since beginningless
> time ... but what about "matter"??? Is it out there
> following its own
> course? Why? How? What happens before a Big Bang
> when all matter may be
> condensed into a super-duper-atom about to become a
> Universe? And why does
> Dependent Origination say that "name-and-form"
> arises in dependence upon
> "consciousness"??? It doesn't say that rupa is
> harvested by citta
> from among a selection of rupa following its own
> course somewhere else - or
> does it? And how come that the birth citta manages
> to find itself a chunk
> of rupa (genes, parents, environment, etc.) that is
> exactly suitable to its
> ripening karma  and to the death citta ... Has
> anyone worked out the
> mathematical /
> probability implications of this?
> 
> Lucy
>      dear Lucy,      I will attempt to answer this
one.   Asyou say, citta arises and falls away,  ever
so rapidly, may I add.  the cittas that are happening
now, that we take for "me", "mine" are no different to
the death consciousness  and the rebirth
consciousness.
> At moment of rebirth, the citta arises along with a
new set of rupa, this rupa is not 'hanging around'
waiting for a citta.  Infact, each rupa only lasts for
about 17 cittas.  The conditions which brings these
together are too complicated for us to know, this is
the realm of Buddha knowledge, what we can know,
theoretically that is, is that kamma is certainly one
of these conditions.    If we were arahats, fully
enlightened beings, no more kamma would be made and
after death consciousness, no more becoming, no more
conditions for becoming.   
>    sometimes the answers we are looking for cannot
be found, at least not until we have developed more
understanding of the present moment, because this
present moment is just name and form, nama and rupa,
citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away,
very rapidly, and we because of ignorance,avijja, not
knowing, we take it all for self.
>        I hope I have helped a little, Lucy
>                 Cheers,  Azita
> 
> 
>  


 
13719 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:28am
Subject: ADL break

 
  Dear group, 
Since several people are out of town I thought we could wait a week to
start the next chapter of ADL. Also, I'm having trouble grasping these
last two chapters on patisandhi-citta so maybe we could use this time
for review and bring up any lingering questions, views, or obscurations. 

ok?, Larry

 
13720 From: alfariqzahani   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 4:33pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> Khandhasamyutta 159(10)Ananda
> Tam kim maññasi, Ananda,  viññanam niccam va aniccam 
> va"ti? "Aniccam, bhante". 
> What do you think, Ananda is consciousness permanent or 
impermanent? 
> Impermanent, venerable sir. (Vinnana, mano and citta are synonyms).
> 


Ok, recently a fellow told me that absolutely no where in the Suttas 
was citta ever said to be anicca or anatta. Hence, he believes it's 
a permanent self. I couldn't disagree more. :)  

I've read that, in the Anguttara-Nikaya that the citta is rapidly 
changing - this supports the traditional view and what I've been 
reading in my Visuddhimagga. 

But I do wonder why, if mano & vinnana are referenced specifically 
as anicca, why isn't citta? I'm thinking it there might be a 
linguistic reason, but I'm not sure. For example, citta 
means 'heart' correct? And saying the 'heart is transient' is not 
quite as smooth as saying 'mind is transient'. But, this is just 
speculation. 

Is there a sutta where the word citta is substituted for mano or 
vinnana so that I can demonstrate conclusively that it is a synonym?

Thanks.

 
13721 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 5:41pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
 Read the discourse you quoted very carefully.  Did the Buddha state 
> any of the following:
> 1. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
subject 
> to one's control.
> 2. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> subject to one's control.

Dear Victor,
It certainly doesn't say or indicate #1 in your samples above.
I think it is synonymous with #2  
> form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> subject to one's control.

The sutta says: 

"...precisely because consciousness (feeling, perception, 
formations, form) is not self.... it is not possible [to say] with 
regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my 
consciousness 
not be thus.'""

best wishes
robert

> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
>  wrote:
> > ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a 
discourse 
> in 
> > the 
> > > Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
> > >  1. there is control.
> > >  2. there is no control. 
> > > 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> > subject 
> > > to one's control.
> > > 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
not 
> > > subject to one's control.
> > > Regards,
> > > Victor
> > ___________
> > Dear Victor,
> > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
> > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
> > 
>

 
13722 From: <> 
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  Bhikkhus as to that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana- the 
uninstructed worldling is unable to experiance revulsion(nibbinditum) towards 
it.For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by 
him,appropriated and grasped thus:'This is mine,This I am ,This is my Atta'
It would be better,Bhikkhus for the uninstructed worldling to take as atta 
this body composed of the 4 great elements rather than the citta. For what 
reason? Because this body composed of the 4 great elements is seen standing 
for one year,for two years,for three,four ,five or ten years,for 20,30 40 or 
50 years,for 100 years, or even longer. But that which is called Citta and 
Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and night.  
 Samyutta 12:61:Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi
   


In a message dated 10/06/02 18:34:13 E. Australia Standard Time, 
<> writes:


> Ok, recently a fellow told me that absolutely no where in the Suttas 
> was citta ever said to be anicca or anatta. Hence, he believes it's 
> a permanent self. I couldn't disagree more. :)  
> 
> I've read that, in the Anguttara-Nikaya that the citta is rapidly 
> changing - this supports the traditional view and what I've been 
> reading in my Visuddhimagga. 
> 
> But I do wonder why, if mano & vinnana are referenced specifically 
> as anicca, why isn't citta? I'm thinking it there might be a 
> linguistic reason, but I'm not sure. For example, citta 
> means 'heart' correct? And saying the 'heart is transient' is not 
> quite as smooth as saying 'mind is transient'. But, this is just 
> speculation. 
> 
> Is there a sutta where the word citta is substituted for mano or 
> vinnana so that I can demonstrate conclusively that it is a synonym?
> 
> Thanks. 
> 




 
13723 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 6:44pm
Subject: Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  --- -  "alfariqzahani"  
> 
> But I do wonder why, if mano & vinnana are referenced specifically 
> as anicca, why isn't citta? I'm thinking it there might be a 
> linguistic reason, but I'm not sure. For example, citta 
> means 'heart' correct? And saying the 'heart is transient' is not 
> quite as smooth as saying 'mind is transient'. But, this is just 
> speculation. 
> 
> Is there a sutta where the word citta is substituted for mano or 
> vinnana so that I can demonstrate conclusively that it is a 
synonym?

____________
Dear Friend,

The pali word for heart is haddaya.
Like most languages pali has synonyms.
The Visuddimagga XIV (82) says: "The words vinnana, citta and mano 
are one in meaning"
Suan Lu Zaw, a member of this group, has written more about this at 
www.bodhiology.com
hope that helps your friend.
best wishes
robert

 
 
13724 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 7:43pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: Impermanence of the Citta2

 
  --- 
Dear Stigan,
Thanks for posting this. I was trying to find it too, but gave up.
robert
 Stigan wrote:
>  Bhikkhus as to that which is called Citta and Mano and Vinnana- 
the 
> uninstructed worldling is unable to experiance revulsion
(nibbinditum) towards 
> it.For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to 
by 
> him,appropriated and grasped thus:'This is mine,This I am ,This is 
my Atta'
> It would be better,Bhikkhus for the uninstructed worldling to take 
as atta 
> this body composed of the 4 great elements rather than the citta. 
For what 
> reason? Because this body composed of the 4 great elements is seen 
standing 
> for one year,for two years,for three,four ,five or ten years,for 
20,30 40 or 
> 50 years,for 100 years, or even longer. But that which is called 
Citta and 
> Mano and Vinnana arises as one thing and ceases as another by day 
and night.  
>  Samyutta 12:61:Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi

 
13725 From: ranil gunawardena   
Date: Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:42pm
Subject: imagine...

 
  imagine the moment you are on your death bed
imagine how your loved ones are looking at you
imagine the fear within you leaving them and going to a all new world
a place yet undecided, unknown...
the moment can be now, in a weeks time, in a months time
a years time, in 100 years time but it is going to come...
Are You Ready???

Be ready with what?? "Sila"

Buddha says,

As if a pot of "githel" oil is broken deep inside the water the oil will 
come to the surface and the broken piaces of the pot will go down....
to a person who has lived a good life in "Sila", his fear
to death will go away and the happiness of doing all those marital acts will 
come to the surface at the time of death...

~~ So feel the happiness of your "Sila" ~~
meththa
ranil



 
13726 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 0:38am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,

Read the discourse very carefully again.

One way to establish the truth of an assertion is to use indirect 
proof:  to show the falsity of the assumption opposite to the 
assertion.  The reasoning of indirect proof is what the Buddha use in 
demonstrating the truth of the statement "form (feeling, perception, 
formations, consciousness is not self." 

Let's look at the following quote.

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this 
consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible 
[to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. 
Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because 
consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. 
And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"


Consciousness is not self.

(This is the assertion.  Its truth is to be demonstrated.)

If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend 
itself to dis-ease.

(Suppose the opposite of the assertion is true, then the conclusion 
is that this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease.  Note 
very carefully that following the assumption, consciousness can 
control itself and not lend itself to dis-ease.)

It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

(This is another way to state the same conclusion "this consciousness 
would not lend itself to dis-ease" following the assumption that 
consciousness is self.)

But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends 
itself to dis-ease.

(Consciousness does lend itself to dis-ease.  The conclusion follows 
from the assumption "consciousness is self" is a contradiction.)

And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my 
consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"

(This is another way state the fact that consciousness lends itself 
to dis-ease.  Again, the conclusion, stating in the corresponding 
way, follows from the assumption is a contradiction.  Note very 
carefully here.  One may say that consciousness has no control over 
itself as consciousness lends itself to dis-ease.  However, this 
statement here has nothing to do with whether one can control 
consciousness or not, or with whether there is control or not.)




The assumption "consciousness is self" is false since it leads to 
contradiction.  Since the assumption, opposite to the 
assertion "consciousness is not self", is false, the truth of the 
assertion "consciousness is not self" is demonstrated/established.

Read the discourse again very carefully and understand the reasoning 
in the quote.

Again, you can say that consciouseness has no control over itself as 
it lends itself to dis-ease.  However, the fact that consciousness 
lends itself to dis-ease does not say anything about 
1. whether there is control or not
2. whether one can control consciousness or not.

Examine what assumption you made that leads to any of the following:
1. there is control.
2. there is no control.
3. consciousness is subject to one's control.
4. consciousness is not subject to one's control.

Regards,
Victor


---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
>  Read the discourse you quoted very carefully.  Did the Buddha 
state 
> > any of the following:
> > 1. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> subject 
> > to one's control.
> > 2. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> > subject to one's control.
> 
> Dear Victor,
> It certainly doesn't say or indicate #1 in your samples above.
> I think it is synonymous with #2  
> > form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is not 
> > subject to one's control.
> 
> The sutta says: 
> 
> "...precisely because consciousness (feeling, perception, 
> formations, form) is not self.... it is not possible [to say] with 
> regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my 
> consciousness 
> not be thus.'""
> 
> best wishes
> robert
> 
> > ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
> >  wrote:
> > > ---  "yuzhonghao"  
wrote:
> > > > > Robert, I would like you to find a reference from a 
> discourse 
> > in 
> > > the 
> > > > Pali Canon in which the Buddha stated any of the following: 
> > > >  1. there is control.
> > > >  2. there is no control. 
> > > > 3. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> > > subject 
> > > > to one's control.
> > > > 4. form (feeling, perception, formations, consciousness) is 
> not 
> > > > subject to one's control.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Victor
> > > ___________
> > > Dear Victor,
> > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59
> > > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta
> > > 
> >

 
13727 From: ANS   
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:07pm
Subject: Oiiii..........

 
  Namo Sakkyamuni Buddhaya....

Hello All.....

Anyone knows any active mailing list in which many traditions of buddhism
join ?
This one is too technical (focus primary on Abidhamma)....not much humanism
portion.
Foreigners learning buddhism like pick up and tear off dead
body......heavily depend on
reasoning and intellectualism......buddhism is about life not just technical
matters....
If you pick up a flower, you won't tear it apart and analyze its part to
find out why it looks so beautiful and smell so fragrance, will you..?
You will only just smell and taste the beauty.....
By the way, I am an Easterner (Indonesian) and I am a romantic guy so I do
not like technical things too much ^_^, my  regards to all of you.

ANS

 
13728 From: ranil gunawardena   
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:06pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Oiiii..........

 
  Dear Friend ANS,

Buddha Dhamma has the quality "Swakkathoo" - means complete. So dont worry 
much about tearing apart and analyzing :) though that has to be done finally 
anyway.

Thought this group discusses points on abhidhamma you may post any question 
related to Buddhism.

anyway may also join Groups like,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=023075080150042132090057049077247130000248031214072239188120242096092246007020073154046196118217171163014176224
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=132017117106013191036232141119229088239145166214013098114113048091051010099190191156009204035181

and many more...

Also you may visit www.metta.lk

~in friendliness (meththa)
ranil



>From: "ANS" 
>Reply->>Subject: [dsg] Oiiii..........
>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:07:16 +0700
>
>Namo Sakkyamuni Buddhaya....
>
>Hello All.....
>
>Anyone knows any active mailing list in which many traditions of buddhism
>join ?
>This one is too technical (focus primary on Abidhamma)....not much humanism
>portion.
>Foreigners learning buddhism like pick up and tear off dead
>body......heavily depend on
>reasoning and intellectualism......buddhism is about life not just 
>technical
>matters....
>If you pick up a flower, you won't tear it apart and analyze its part to
>find out why it looks so beautiful and smell so fragrance, will you..?
>You will only just smell and taste the beauty.....
>By the way, I am an Easterner (Indonesian) and I am a romantic guy so I do
>not like technical things too much ^_^, my  regards to all of you.
>
>ANS
>





 
13729 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 10:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> Robert,
> """ And it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness, 'Let my 
> consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"
> ----
> (This is another way state the fact that consciousness lends 
itself 
> to dis-ease.  Again, the conclusion, stating in the corresponding 
> way, follows from the assumption is a contradiction.  Note very 
> carefully here.  One may say that consciousness has no control 
over 
> itself as consciousness lends itself to dis-ease.  However, this 
> statement here has nothing to do with whether one can control 
> consciousness or not, or with whether there is control or not.)
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++
Dear Victor,
I don't follow your reasoning. It seems that the Buddha is clearly 
saying " it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness, 'Let my 
> consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus" .

If you like I can try to translate(crudely) the commentary and Tika, 
but I spent half an hour studying them and am fairly sure both 
support that it means that no power is exercisable over the khandhas 
(because there is no self). A key word in the tika, 
avasavattanathena, is used in several books and means powerlessness 
(also used in the commentary from dhammapada 279 I gave yesterday).
 Bodhi says about this sutta(p1066)"the five aggregates are 
insusceptible to the exercise of mastery" .
If you object to the phrase "no control", we could replace it with 
Bodhi's elegant wording?

The commentary says that this sutta was the second one given by the 
Buddha. At its conclusion the group of five original bhikhus all 
became arahant.
Why did it have such an impact? I think because it is so radically 
freeing, enlightening, to understand that all dhammas are not 
susceptible to the exercise of mastery, that there is no self 
anywhere, doing anything. There is only the flux of conditioned 
phenomena.
best wishes
robert

 
13730 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  op 09-06-2002 18:29 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op
:
> Dear Victor,
> The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada
> attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,
> Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the background
> story.
> I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to study
> the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.
> 
> The Buddha said (my translation):
> 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati;
> atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.
> 
> All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
> then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
> This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).
> 
> The commentary says:
> Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.
> 
> Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates
> (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).
> 
> Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
> avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho.
> 
> Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
> (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase
> vattetum na).
> In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void of
> self (attasuñña ).
> I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" Maybe
> Jim or Nina know it.
> 
Dear Robert,
Jim would be able to give a more detailed, more precise translation, but I
try to find out about these words.
assamika: no saamika, meaning, owner. Thus, no owner.
anissaro: no issaro, no creator. The ti is just at the end, meaning it is a
quotation. Or, as Jim said, it can also be iti: thus, but I think it has
just the first meaning.
jiyantu and miyantu are verbs: jiiyati: to decay, and miiyati, to die. Now,
looking at the grammar (Warder, ch 6), these forms are imperative, or they
can express a wish: ma jiyantu ma miyantu, may they not decay, may they not
die, thus, we could tranlate: with regard to the wish: may they not decay,
may they not die, it is impossible to exercise power.
I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, Buddhist Legends, but could
not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?
I hope that Jim will look at it.
Nina.

 
13731 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control

 
  Dear Larry, you are right, volition, ignorance, clinging, they are included
in sankharakkhandha, because all cetasikas other than feeling and
remembrance are included in this khandha. Sankhaara, preparing,
conditioning. But, as Jon also explained in a post, sankharakkhandha is not
the same as sankhara dhamma, we have to be precise (see ADL). Sankhara
dhamma includes all conditioned realities, all khandhas. In the
paticcasamuppada, sankhara or abhisankhara is volition or kamma,
conditioning vipaka.Thus, cetana cetasika. Each time we have to see in what
context sankhara is used.

op 09-06-2002 23:08 schreef <> op <>:

> Hi all, yet another way to look at this 'control' question is as
> volition. Sometimes what we mean by control is volition. Some people
> understand the sankhara khandha as volition or intention; Tilmann Vetter
> renders it as 'impulse'; I would also include ignorance in sankhara
> khandha. So we have ignorance, intention, and impulse coming together in
> one khandha as the rocket launcher of kamma, i.e. paticcasamupadda. One
> could also say that all the khandhas are sankhara in the sense of being
> formations and that the activity of and state of formation is clinging
> based on ignorance and causing kamma and dukkha.

>L: All of these qualities arise impersonally and are very temporary but the
> sense or meaning of 'formation' is 'self' and 'permanence'. And the
> meaning of 'self' is 'control'. So whenever the Buddha says 'control
> yourself' he is talking to people who see a self. And if they are wise,
> they will follow his advice and control themselves. There is no point to
> pretending to an insight you don't have, just because of a little book
> learning. 
> However, by contemplating 'no control' one could gradually come to see
> that there is no one in charge and ultimately nothing to be in charge
> of. 

N: I would not say that the meaning of sankhara is self. Does it not imply
conditioning and conditioned? You said, <When the Buddha says 'control
yourself' he is talking to people who see a self. > I think the Buddha
clearly stated the truth of anatta, because only Tathagatas teach this. He
would not let people go on believing in a self, because then one starts off
with wrong view and accumulates it from moment to moment.
You are right when you say, <There is no point to pretending to an insight
you don't have, just because of a little book learning.>
Indeed it is a long way to directly experience the truth of anatta, we need
patience to be aware of the nama and rupa appearing now. We have to know six
worlds appearing through the six doorways, and they are all separate, not
mixed. How difficult, many times we are interested in other things, not in
nama and rupa. However, the little booklearning does help. It helps us to
understand the way we have to go, what has to be known, what are the objects
of awareness (gocara). It helps us to see to what purpose we study: to know
dhammas as they are.
I am reading in Pali "Fruits of the Life of a Recluse" together with Ven.
Bodhi"s translation. I am now reading about mindfulness of the four
postures, and <the Bhikkhu acts with clear comprehension>: sampajaanakaarii
hoti: He does all his tasks with clear comprehension. Sampaja~n~naa is
pa~n~naa. Kaarii, doing. The long i has a special meaning that gets lost in
English: in India A. Supee pointed out: karíi: he usually does, he
habitually does. This is a good reminder: to habitually, usually be aware
will lead to right understanding. We do not try, but the word habitual can
remind us that awareness is not yet enough.
Another point I did not know: clear comprehension in going forward and
returning: this is in the four postures. The Co explains: going forward is
bringing the body forward. But also when sitting: don't we sit with the body
forward sometimes? The meaning is: even during those moments there are only
nama and rupa that can be objects of awareness. Also thinking of the posture
is only a kind of nama.
Finally, I do not find the word control a problem, so long as we see the
meaning of control, sa.mvara, that can also be translated as restraint.
Restraint of Patimokkha, the rules for the monks. Restraint by sila, sati,
~naana, khanti (patience) and viriya (energy). Thus, the cetasikas perform
their functions, no I who performs such functions. Indriya samvara sila:
guarding of the sensedoors. Through satipatthana there can be indriyasamvara
sila, awareness of what appears through the six doorways.
Best wishes from Nina.

 
13732 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  op 10-06-2002 18:38 schreef yuzhonghao op Victor:
onsciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"

> Examine what assumption you made that leads to any of the following:
> 1. there is control.
> 2. there is no control.
> 3. consciousness is subject to one's control.
> 4. consciousness is not subject to one's control.
> 
Hallo Victor, 
O,o, you give me a difficult time, but that is not your fault. I am no good
at logic at all. The above seems to me somewhat impersonal. You know,
Victor, could you give an example from daily life about control? We would
really benefit if you, time permitting, and if you have the inclination to
it, would write in a more personal way. You have read a great deal, and it
is good to know how it is to be applied. In what sense does the idea of
control helps you personally in your daily life? I still remember your post
about the <Builder of the House> (wohnung, etc), and I know that you can
also write in a more personally way.
Best wishes from Nina.

 
13733 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:06am
Subject: Re: [dsg] marana sati

 
  op 10-06-2002 15:42 schreef ranil gunawardena op :>

> imagine the moment you are on your death bed
> imagine how your loved ones are looking at you
> imagine the fear within you leaving them and going to a all new world
> a place yet undecided, unknown...
> the moment can be now, in a weeks time, in a months time
> a years time, in 100 years time but it is going to come...
> Are You Ready???
> 
> Be ready with what?? "Sila"
> 
> Buddha says,
> 
> As if a pot of "githel" oil is broken deep inside the water the oil will
> come to the surface and the broken piaces of the pot will go down....
> to a person who has lived a good life in "Sila", his fear
> to death will go away and the happiness of doing all those marital acts will
> come to the surface at the time of death...
> 
> ~~ So feel the happiness of your "Sila" ~~

Dear Ranil,
Thank you for the marana sati. Never enough of this. No dilly dally, just as
Manji expresses it so well with go,go,go.
A printing failure: marital should perhaps be meritorious? But, of course,
freshly married, and my congratulations. By the way, Lodewijk and I will
celebrate our golden wedding anniversary next month, we need marana sati.
What happens when one of the partners dies? Sarah and I were once so
impressed when A. Sujin spoke about this, because her sister had lost her
husband. She said: his life is just like the blowing of wind through your
life, just for a moment and then gone. We found it so hard to swallow. I
hope Sarah will say more a after her return from Sri Lanka.
With appreciation,
Nina.

 
13734 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 1:43am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  ---

Dear Nina,
Thanks so much for this. I wonder if we should take the discussion 
off-list if it goes further; Sarah might not appreciate if she got 
back and the list had been decimated because of people leaving in 
disgust over too too much Pali?
You question """I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, 
Buddhist Legends, but could
> not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?""
No, it is The Dhammapada -atthakatha , I took it direct from the 
Chattha sangayana (Burmese 6th council) edition 
see: 
http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502a/s0502a-frm.html
( I will explain how to access it , download fonts etc if you like?)
I can't find the background story that Burlingame used for his 
translation - Maybe Jim can tell us where this is and what is the 
difference between the atthakatha and the stories. The Commentary is 
quite short .
with respect
robert


  Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> op 09-06-2002 18:29 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op
:
> > Dear Victor,
> > The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada
> > attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,
> > Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the 
background
> > story.
> > I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to 
study
> > the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.
> > 
> > The Buddha said (my translation):
> > 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati;
> > atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.
> > 
> > All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
> > then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
> > This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).
> > 
> > The commentary says:
> > Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.
> > 
> > Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates
> > (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).
> > 
> > Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
> > avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho.
> > 
> > Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
> > (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase
> > vattetum na).
> > In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void 
of
> > self (attasuñña ).
> > I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" 
Maybe
> > Jim or Nina know it.
> > 
> Dear Robert,
> Jim would be able to give a more detailed, more precise 
translation, but I
> try to find out about these words.
> assamika: no saamika, meaning, owner. Thus, no owner.
> anissaro: no issaro, no creator. The ti is just at the end, 
meaning it is a
> quotation. Or, as Jim said, it can also be iti: thus, but I think 
it has
> just the first meaning.
> jiyantu and miyantu are verbs: jiiyati: to decay, and miiyati, to 
die. Now,
> looking at the grammar (Warder, ch 6), these forms are imperative, 
or they
> can express a wish: ma jiyantu ma miyantu, may they not decay, may 
they not
> die, thus, we could tranlate: with regard to the wish: may they 
not decay,
> may they not die, it is impossible to exercise power.
> I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, Buddhist Legends, 
but could
> not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?
> I hope that Jim will look at it.
> Nina.

 
13735 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:31am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Robert,

Look very carefully on what is being said in the quote 
"But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends 
itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
not be thus'" 
and ask yourself this:
Does consciousness have control over itself, according to the quote 
above?

Regarding the statement "there is no self", see
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html

Regards,
Victor


> Dear Victor,
> I don't follow your reasoning. It seems that the Buddha is clearly 
> saying " it is not possible [to say] with regard to 
> consciousness, 'Let my 
> > consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus" .
> 
> If you like I can try to translate(crudely) the commentary and 
Tika, 
> but I spent half an hour studying them and am fairly sure both 
> support that it means that no power is exercisable over the 
khandhas 
> (because there is no self). A key word in the tika, 
> avasavattanathena, is used in several books and means powerlessness 
> (also used in the commentary from dhammapada 279 I gave yesterday).
>  Bodhi says about this sutta(p1066)"the five aggregates are 
> insusceptible to the exercise of mastery" .
> If you object to the phrase "no control", we could replace it with 
> Bodhi's elegant wording?
> 
> The commentary says that this sutta was the second one given by the 
> Buddha. At its conclusion the group of five original bhikhus all 
> became arahant.
> Why did it have such an impact? I think because it is so radically 
> freeing, enlightening, to understand that all dhammas are not 
> susceptible to the exercise of mastery, that there is no self 
> anywhere, doing anything. There is only the flux of conditioned 
> phenomena.
> best wishes
> robert

 
13736 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:57am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  Hi Nina,

Let me respond your message by quoting the following:

231. Let a man guard himself against irritability in bodily action; 
let him be controlled in deed. Abandoning bodily misconduct, let him 
practice good conduct in deed. 

232. Let a man guard himself against irritability in speech; let him 
be controlled in speech. Abandoning verbal misconduct, let him 
practice good conduct in speech. 

233. Let a man guard himself against irritability in thought; let him 
be controlled in mind. Abandoning mental misconduct, let him practice 
good conduct in thought. 

234. The wise are controlled in bodily action, controlled in speech 
and controlled in thought. They are truly well-controlled. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/17.html#231

I hope you find the quote inspiring for practicing in daily life.

Regards,
Victor



> Hallo Victor, 
> O,o, you give me a difficult time, but that is not your fault. I am 
no good
> at logic at all. The above seems to me somewhat impersonal. You 
know,
> Victor, could you give an example from daily life about control? We 
would
> really benefit if you, time permitting, and if you have the 
inclination to
> it, would write in a more personal way. You have read a great deal, 
and it
> is good to know how it is to be applied. In what sense does the 
idea of
> control helps you personally in your daily life? I still remember 
your post
> about the <Builder of the House> (wohnung, etc), and I know that 
you can
> also write in a more personally way.
> Best wishes from Nina.

 
13737 From: <> 
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:56am
Subject: patisandhi-citta

 
  ADL ch. 10: "Nama and rupa arise and fall away at every moment and thus
there is birth and death of nama and rupa at every moment."

Dear group,

A few questions regarding patisandhi-citta:

1. Is the above just figurative speaking? If so, is there a difference
between patisandhi-citta and any other citta other than it being the
first citta in a life continuum? Is there a power in its function that
makes it unique, different from all other cittas? Or does every citta
start out as a patisandhi-citta and end as a cuti-citta?

2. Is patisandhi-citta and cuti-citta the exact same citta?

3. Is patisandhi-citta a single citta with cetasikas and object, or is
it a single round of citta process, or is it an extensive series of
citta processes bundled together as a whole?

4. What is experience? Why are some cittas experienced and others not?

Thanks for your help. More tomorrow,

Larry

 
13738 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  Dear Robert,
Personally I always appreciate the posts that either discuss Pali passages or
quote commentaries and subcommentaries.  I don't think they chase anyone away, and
i wish you would discuss them on list.  I may regret it, as I already can't keep
up, but I think we should have these unique discussions here.  If anyone doesn't
want to read them, they can just skip that thread.

Thanks,
Robert Ep.

========

--- "robertkirkpatrick.rm"  wrote:
> ---
> 
> Dear Nina,
> Thanks so much for this. I wonder if we should take the discussion 
> off-list if it goes further; Sarah might not appreciate if she got 
> back and the list had been decimated because of people leaving in 
> disgust over too too much Pali?
> You question """I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, 
> Buddhist Legends, but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?""
> No, it is The Dhammapada -atthakatha , I took it direct from the 
> Chattha sangayana (Burmese 6th council) edition 
> see: 
> http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502a/s0502a-frm.html
> ( I will explain how to access it , download fonts etc if you like?)
> I can't find the background story that Burlingame used for his 
> translation - Maybe Jim can tell us where this is and what is the 
> difference between the atthakatha and the stories. The Commentary is 
> quite short .
> with respect
> robert
> 
> 
>   Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> > op 09-06-2002 18:29 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op
> > > Dear Victor,
> > > The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada
> > > attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,
> > > Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the 
> background
> > > story.
> > > I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to 
> study
> > > the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.
> > > 
> > > The Buddha said (my translation):
> > > 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati;
> > > atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.
> > > 
> > > All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
> > > then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
> > > This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).
> > > 
> > > The commentary says:
> > > Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.
> > > 
> > > Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates
> > > (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).
> > > 
> > > Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
> > > avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho.
> > > 
> > > Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
> > > (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase
> > > vattetum na).
> > > In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void 
> of
> > > self (attasuñña ).
> > > I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" 
> Maybe
> > > Jim or Nina know it.
> > > 
> > Dear Robert,
> > Jim would be able to give a more detailed, more precise 
> translation, but I
> > try to find out about these words.
> > assamika: no saamika, meaning, owner. Thus, no owner.
> > anissaro: no issaro, no creator. The ti is just at the end, 
> meaning it is a
> > quotation. Or, as Jim said, it can also be iti: thus, but I think 
> it has
> > just the first meaning.
> > jiyantu and miyantu are verbs: jiiyati: to decay, and miiyati, to 
> die. Now,
> > looking at the grammar (Warder, ch 6), these forms are imperative, 
> or they
> > can express a wish: ma jiyantu ma miyantu, may they not decay, may 
> they not
> > die, thus, we could tranlate: with regard to the wish: may they 
> not decay,
> > may they not die, it is impossible to exercise power.
> > I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, Buddhist Legends, 
> but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?
> > I hope that Jim will look at it.
> > Nina.

 
13739 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  Dear Robert,
Personally I always appreciate the posts that either discuss Pali passages or
quote commentaries and subcommentaries.  I don't think they chase anyone away, and
i wish you would discuss them on list.  I may regret it, as I already can't keep
up, but I think we should have these unique discussions here.  If anyone doesn't
want to read them, they can just skip that thread.

Thanks,
Robert Ep.

========

--- "robertkirkpatrick.rm"  wrote:
> ---
> 
> Dear Nina,
> Thanks so much for this. I wonder if we should take the discussion 
> off-list if it goes further; Sarah might not appreciate if she got 
> back and the list had been decimated because of people leaving in 
> disgust over too too much Pali?
> You question """I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, 
> Buddhist Legends, but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?""
> No, it is The Dhammapada -atthakatha , I took it direct from the 
> Chattha sangayana (Burmese 6th council) edition 
> see: 
> http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502a/s0502a-frm.html
> ( I will explain how to access it , download fonts etc if you like?)
> I can't find the background story that Burlingame used for his 
> translation - Maybe Jim can tell us where this is and what is the 
> difference between the atthakatha and the stories. The Commentary is 
> quite short .
> with respect
> robert
> 
> 
>   Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> > op 09-06-2002 18:29 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op
> > > Dear Victor,
> > > The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada
> > > attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,
> > > Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the 
> background
> > > story.
> > > I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to 
> study
> > > the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.
> > > 
> > > The Buddha said (my translation):
> > > 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati;
> > > atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.
> > > 
> > > All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
> > > then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
> > > This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).
> > > 
> > > The commentary says:
> > > Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.
> > > 
> > > Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates
> > > (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).
> > > 
> > > Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
> > > avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho.
> > > 
> > > Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
> > > (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase
> > > vattetum na).
> > > In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void 
> of
> > > self (attasuñña ).
> > > I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" 
> Maybe
> > > Jim or Nina know it.
> > > 
> > Dear Robert,
> > Jim would be able to give a more detailed, more precise 
> translation, but I
> > try to find out about these words.
> > assamika: no saamika, meaning, owner. Thus, no owner.
> > anissaro: no issaro, no creator. The ti is just at the end, 
> meaning it is a
> > quotation. Or, as Jim said, it can also be iti: thus, but I think 
> it has
> > just the first meaning.
> > jiyantu and miyantu are verbs: jiiyati: to decay, and miiyati, to 
> die. Now,
> > looking at the grammar (Warder, ch 6), these forms are imperative, 
> or they
> > can express a wish: ma jiyantu ma miyantu, may they not decay, may 
> they not
> > die, thus, we could tranlate: with regard to the wish: may they 
> not decay,
> > may they not die, it is impossible to exercise power.
> > I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, Buddhist Legends, 
> but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?
> > I hope that Jim will look at it.
> > Nina.
> 


 
13740 From: Robert Epstein   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:24pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  Dear Robert,
Personally I always appreciate the posts that either discuss Pali passages or
quote commentaries and subcommentaries.  I don't think they chase anyone away, and
i wish you would discuss them on list.  I may regret it, as I already can't keep
up, but I think we should have these unique discussions here.  If anyone doesn't
want to read them, they can just skip that thread.

Thanks,
Robert Ep.

========

--- "robertkirkpatrick.rm"  wrote:
> ---
> 
> Dear Nina,
> Thanks so much for this. I wonder if we should take the discussion 
> off-list if it goes further; Sarah might not appreciate if she got 
> back and the list had been decimated because of people leaving in 
> disgust over too too much Pali?
> You question """I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, 
> Buddhist Legends, but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?""
> No, it is The Dhammapada -atthakatha , I took it direct from the 
> Chattha sangayana (Burmese 6th council) edition 
> see: 
> http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502a/s0502a-frm.html
> ( I will explain how to access it , download fonts etc if you like?)
> I can't find the background story that Burlingame used for his 
> translation - Maybe Jim can tell us where this is and what is the 
> difference between the atthakatha and the stories. The Commentary is 
> quite short .
> with respect
> robert
> 
> 
>   Nina van Gorkom  wrote:
> > op 09-06-2002 18:29 schreef robertkirkpatrick.rm op
> > > Dear Victor,
> > > The section you quote above is a paraphrase of the Dhammapada
> > > attakatha (commentary) by the translator ( Daw Mya Tin,
> > > Burma Pitaka Association ) and also includes some of the 
> background
> > > story.
> > > I appreciate you asking about it as it gives me the energy to 
> study
> > > the pali, something I find very inspiring to read.
> > > 
> > > The Buddha said (my translation):
> > > 279: "Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paññaya passati;
> > > atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti.
> > > 
> > > All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight
> > > then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati)from dukkha,
> > > This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi).
> > > 
> > > The commentary says:
> > > Tattha sabbe dhammati pañcakkhandha eva adhippeta.
> > > 
> > > Here(tattha)by  all (sabbe)phenomena (dhammati),  five aggregates
> > > (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).
> > > 
> > > Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
> > > avasavattanatthena anatta attasuñña assamika anissarati attho.
> > > 
> > > Are not-self (anattati) because  Birth(jiyantu), decay and death
> > > (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase
> > > vattetum na).
> > > In the sense of powerlessness( avasavattanatthena ) anatta, void 
> of
> > > self (attasuñña ).
> > > I couldn't figure out this phrase:"assamika anissarati attho" 
> Maybe
> > > Jim or Nina know it.
> > > 
> > Dear Robert,
> > Jim would be able to give a more detailed, more precise 
> translation, but I
> > try to find out about these words.
> > assamika: no saamika, meaning, owner. Thus, no owner.
> > anissaro: no issaro, no creator. The ti is just at the end, 
> meaning it is a
> > quotation. Or, as Jim said, it can also be iti: thus, but I think 
> it has
> > just the first meaning.
> > jiyantu and miyantu are verbs: jiiyati: to decay, and miiyati, to 
> die. Now,
> > looking at the grammar (Warder, ch 6), these forms are imperative, 
> or they
> > can express a wish: ma jiyantu ma miyantu, may they not decay, may 
> they not
> > die, thus, we could tranlate: with regard to the wish: may they 
> not decay,
> > may they not die, it is impossible to exercise power.
> > I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada, Buddhist Legends, 
> but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?
> > I hope that Jim will look at it.
> > Nina.
> 


 
13741 From: ranil gunawardena   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 3:52pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] marana sati

 
  Dear Nina,
I am so happy to have your reply. And best wishers and feelings of joy for 
your golden wedding anniversary - to both of you. And wishers for a long 
life to both of you doing all your good work to this world. I hope you are 
also coming to Sri Lanka, arent you? Just days more.

Yes, marital should perhaps be meritorious :) Thank you.

Hope seeing you soon,
with meththa
ranil

>From: Nina van Gorkom 
>Reply->>Subject: Re: [dsg] marana sati
>Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:06:11 +0200
>
>op 10-06-2002 15:42 schreef ranil gunawardena op :>
>
> > imagine the moment you are on your death bed
> > imagine how your loved ones are looking at you
> > imagine the fear within you leaving them and going to a all new world
> > a place yet undecided, unknown...
> > the moment can be now, in a weeks time, in a months time
> > a years time, in 100 years time but it is going to come...
> > Are You Ready???
> >
> > Be ready with what?? "Sila"
> >
> > Buddha says,
> >
> > As if a pot of "githel" oil is broken deep inside the water the oil will
> > come to the surface and the broken piaces of the pot will go down....
> > to a person who has lived a good life in "Sila", his fear
> > to death will go away and the happiness of doing all those marital acts 
>will
> > come to the surface at the time of death...
> >
> > ~~ So feel the happiness of your "Sila" ~~
>
>Dear Ranil,
>Thank you for the marana sati. Never enough of this. No dilly dally, just 
>as
>Manji expresses it so well with go,go,go.
>A printing failure: marital should perhaps be meritorious? But, of course,
>freshly married, and my congratulations. By the way, Lodewijk and I will
>celebrate our golden wedding anniversary next month, we need marana sati.
>What happens when one of the partners dies? Sarah and I were once so
>impressed when A. Sujin spoke about this, because her sister had lost her
>husband. She said: his life is just like the blowing of wind through your
>life, just for a moment and then gone. We found it so hard to swallow. I
>hope Sarah will say more a after her return from Sri Lanka.
>With appreciation,
>Nina.
>
>
>
>





 
13742 From: goglerr   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 4:03pm
Subject: Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  ---  <> wrote:
> ADL ch. 10: "Nama and rupa arise and fall away at every moment and 
thus
> there is birth and death of nama and rupa at every moment."
> 
> Dear group,
> 
> A few questions regarding patisandhi-citta:
> 
> 1. Is the above just figurative speaking? If so, is there a 
difference between patisandhi-citta and any other citta other than it 
being the first citta in a life continuum? Is there a power in its 
function that makes it unique, different from all other cittas? Or 
does every citta start out as a patisandhi-citta and end as a cuti-
citta?
> 
> 2. Is patisandhi-citta and cuti-citta the exact same citta?
> 
> 3. Is patisandhi-citta a single citta with cetasikas and object, or 
is it a single round of citta process, or is it an extensive series of
> citta processes bundled together as a whole?
> 
> 4. What is experience? Why are some cittas experienced and others 
not?
> 
> Thanks for your help. More tomorrow,
> 
> Larry

Dear Larry

Birth and death are broad conventional phrases to denote arising and 
passing away of nama and rupa. Patisandhi citta, cuti citta, and 
other kinds of cittas are functional phrases to indicate the basic 
functions of the cittas. Therefore the functions make each citta 
unique in abhidhamma sense. 

Every citta (including patisandhi and cuti citta) has to undergo 
three phases, i.e the arising, the middle and the passing away 
(decay). For patisandhi and cuti citta, in an existencial realm (a 
life faculty) e.g a human realm, the first citta in that human 
existence is patisandhi citta and the last citta is cuti citta. In 
other words, another angle, at the last moment we die that is cuti 
citta is followed immediately by patisandhi citta of the next life. 
So they are two different cittas. 

Patisandhi citta is a single citta arising together with cetasikas. 
At the moment of physical death, either one of the three objects 
experience at any of the 6 sense doors, i.e. a kamma, a sign of kamma 
and a sign of destiny. Long long discussion, difficult to eleborate 
but kindly refer to Abhidhammattha Sangaha, translated by B. Bodhi, 
V$435, pg 221 and III$17 pg 136-139.  

Hope these helps

goglerr

 
13743 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:31pm
Subject: Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  --- 
Thanks, Goglerr,
Here is a little more from an old post:
There are several pages about rebirth process in Visuddhimagga 
xvii
133-175.
It is complex. I will try to put it as simply as possible.
There is a lengthy explanation of how at the actual moment of death, 
due
to several conditions, an object is taken by that consciousness 
(called
cuti-citta) death-consciousness. This consciousness is not different 
from
other types of consciousness that arise and pass away all day long - 
but
it is given this name to identify it(of course each moment is not 
exactly
the same as any other and seeing consciousness is different from 
hearing
consciousness etc; but all have the general characteristic of 
experiencing
an arammana). The next consciousness that arises is called 
patisandhara
(rebirth) and again this is no different from other types of 
consciousness
Although we call it conventionaly a 'new life' it is, just like now,
simply a stream of arising and passing consciousnesses carrying on. 
At this moment this process of arising and passing, birth and death,
(khanika marana) occurs but because of ignorance we don't perceive 
it. But
truly we are utterly different from what we were a second ago - the 
reason
we look and feel approximately the same is because similar conditions
arise to replace the mentality and materiality that fell away. At
conventional death and new birth the changes are more obvious because
different kamma will produce results.
Here are some pertinent quotes:
XVII 164 "The former of these two states of consciousness is called 
death
(cuti) because of falling and the later is called rebirth because of
linking (patisandhara) across the gap separating the beginning of 
the 
next
becoming". Note that there is no suggestion of the consciousness 
from 
the
previous life going to the present life. The whole point is to make 
it
clear that that is exactly NOT what happens.
164. "it should be understood that it has neither come here from the
previous becoming nor has it become manifest without the kamma, the
formations(sankharas), the objective field etc. as cause. An echo , 
or its
like, supplies the figures here; connectedness By continuity denies
Identity and otherness" 
302. "with formations as condition consciousness(sankhara paccaya 
vinnana)
prevents seeing the transmigration of a self." 
280 "consequently, the dependent origination with its twelve factors,
revolving within the linking of cause and effect is established as 
having
no beginning" 
303 "Ignorance here is 'no theory' and 'wrong theory'

Also consider an earlier post where I noted that Buddhaghosa
also taught "that the structure of conditions is present not only in 
a
multiple consciousness but also in each single consciousness as 
well" 
(see
dispeller of delusion and also note 48 of Visuddhimagga). In the
Visuddhimagga it is noted that the factor of resultant consciousness 
does
not only refer to rebirth consciousness but also xvii 126 "in the 
course
of an individual existence or continuity" There are several 
paragraphs
about this.
Patisandh citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta are identical in 
charateristic and object but are given different names to 
distinguish there special functions.
best wishes
robert

 "goglerr"  wrote:
> ---  <> wrote:
> > ADL ch. 10: "Nama and rupa arise and fall away at every moment 
and 
> thus
> > there is birth and death of nama and rupa at every moment."
> > 
> > Dear group,
> > 
> > A few questions regarding patisandhi-citta:
> > 
> > 1. Is the above just figurative speaking? If so, is there a 
> difference between patisandhi-citta and any other citta other than 
it 
> being the first citta in a life continuum? Is there a power in its 
> function that makes it unique, different from all other cittas? Or 
> does every citta start out as a patisandhi-citta and end as a cuti-
> citta?
> > 
> > 2. Is patisandhi-citta and cuti-citta the exact same citta?
> > 
> > 3. Is patisandhi-citta a single citta with cetasikas and object, 
or 
> is it a single round of citta process, or is it an extensive 
series of
> > citta processes bundled together as a whole?
> > 
> > 4. What is experience? Why are some cittas experienced and 
others 
> not?
> > 
> > Thanks for your help. More tomorrow,
> > 
> > Larry
> 
> Dear Larry
> 
> Birth and death are broad conventional phrases to denote arising 
and 
> passing away of nama and rupa. Patisandhi citta, cuti citta, and 
> other kinds of cittas are functional phrases to indicate the basic 
> functions of the cittas. Therefore the functions make each citta 
> unique in abhidhamma sense. 
> 
> Every citta (including patisandhi and cuti citta) has to undergo 
> three phases, i.e the arising, the middle and the passing away 
> (decay). For patisandhi and cuti citta, in an existencial realm (a 
> life faculty) e.g a human realm, the first citta in that human 
> existence is patisandhi citta and the last citta is cuti citta. In 
> other words, another angle, at the last moment we die that is cuti 
> citta is followed immediately by patisandhi citta of the next 
life. 
> So they are two different cittas. 
> 
> Patisandhi citta is a single citta arising together with 
cetasikas. 
> At the moment of physical death, either one of the three objects 
> experience at any of the 6 sense doors, i.e. a kamma, a sign of 
kamma 
> and a sign of destiny. Long long discussion, difficult to 
eleborate 
> but kindly refer to Abhidhammattha Sangaha, translated by B. 
Bodhi, 
> V$435, pg 221 and III$17 pg 136-139.  
> 
> Hope these helps
> 
> goglerr

 
13744 From: Jim Anderson   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:03am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  Dear Robert and Nina,

The stories (vatthu-s) are included in the Dhammapada-a.t.thakathaa.
However, Burlingame does not translate the commentarial sections on the
actual words and phrases found in the verses. The same can be said for
Cowell's edition of the Jataka translation. I think you will find the
Dhammapada stories come just before the verse-commentary although I didn't
check in this particular case. It's just how I remember the order from my
readings of the PTS ed. in the past.

Best wishes,
Jim

<< Dear Nina,
Thanks so much for this. I wonder if we should take the discussion
off-list if it goes further; Sarah might not appreciate if she got
back and the list had been decimated because of people leaving in
disgust over too too much Pali?
You question """I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada,
Buddhist Legends, but could
> not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?""
No, it is The Dhammapada -atthakatha , I took it direct from the
Chattha sangayana (Burmese 6th council) edition
see:
http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502a/s0502a-frm.html
( I will explain how to access it , download fonts etc if you like?)
I can't find the background story that Burlingame used for his
translation - Maybe Jim can tell us where this is and what is the
difference between the atthakatha and the stories. The Commentary is
quite short .
with respect
robert >>




 
13745 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:20pm
Subject: Re: Pali text of Co Dhammapada.

 
  Dear Jim and Rob E.
Thanks for the comments.  I just checked: Jim, you are right it is 
just above the section I gave. It was a little confusing because 
this particular story covers 3 verses in the Dhammapada.
best wishes
robert
---
  "Jim Anderson"  
wrote:
> Dear Robert and Nina,
> 
> The stories (vatthu-s) are included in the Dhammapada-
a.t.thakathaa.
> However, Burlingame does not translate the commentarial sections 
on the
> actual words and phrases found in the verses. The same can be said 
for
> Cowell's edition of the Jataka translation. I think you will find 
the
> Dhammapada stories come just before the verse-commentary although 
I didn't
> check in this particular case. It's just how I remember the order 
from my
> readings of the PTS ed. in the past.
> 
> Best wishes,
> Jim
> 
> << Dear Nina,
> Thanks so much for this. I wonder if we should take the discussion
> off-list if it goes further; Sarah might not appreciate if she got
> back and the list had been decimated because of people leaving in
> disgust over too too much Pali?
> You question """I looked at the coomentary to the Dhammapada,
> Buddhist Legends, but could
> > not find this passage. Is it a subcommentary?""
> No, it is The Dhammapada -atthakatha , I took it direct from the
> Chattha sangayana (Burmese 6th council) edition
> see:
> http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0502a/s0502a-frm.html
> ( I will explain how to access it , download fonts etc if you 
like?)
> I can't find the background story that Burlingame used for his
> translation - Maybe Jim can tell us where this is and what is the
> difference between the atthakatha and the stories. The Commentary 
is
> quite short .
> with respect
> robert >>


 
13746 From: Kenneth Ong   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:26pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Hi Sukin

Ariyan still can decide whether he choose to impart the teaching or not :)

kind regards
Ken O

 --- sukinderpal  wrote: > Dear Ken O, Victor and all,
> 
> Perhaps another way of looking at this issue about 'control' and 
> 'no control' is to consider an ariyan. An ariyan cannot have those 
> dhammas arise which will make him break the precepts, meaning he 
> cannot now become a worldling. Is it a question of choice? I think not.
> It is just that those dhammas don't arise in relation to his
> accumulations.
> Does he therefore have less 'power' to control than us worldlings. I
> think
> not, because 'no one' has any power over any dhamma since there
> is no 'one' anywhere.
> We as worldlings are 'powered' mostly by our kilesas, whereas the
> ariyan by his accumulated panna and at the moment of any activity
> sati and panna just perform their functions as impersonally as our avija
> do when conditions for it to arise, arises. 
> Except in the case of the ariyan, his cittas have more power than ours, 
> because they comprise of more no. of cetasikas than do akusala cittas.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Best,
> Sukin.
> 
> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
>  wrote:
> > --- 
> > ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> > > > bhikkhus 
> > > > had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> > > > during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> > > > khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
> > one's 
> > > > control."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?
> > > 
> > > Dear Victor, 
> > Here is the link I took this from. It was published by The Burma 
> > Pitaka society
> > http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/dmpada2j.htm#277279
> > The original section I posted carried on 
> > 
> > "Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> > Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one 
> sees 
> > this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
> > khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> > 
> > At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus attained 
> > arahatship. ""
> > Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
> > Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
> > best wishes
> > robert


 
13747 From: Kenneth Ong   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:28pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Hi Sukin

 forget to say that Buddha can choose to stay one kalpa in Saha world if
he choose to :)

I think we should consider the power of choice :) and please remember that
I say this is all on the basis on non self



regards
Ken O

--- sukinderpal  wrote: > Dear Ken O, Victor and all,
> 
> Perhaps another way of looking at this issue about 'control' and 
> 'no control' is to consider an ariyan. An ariyan cannot have those 
> dhammas arise which will make him break the precepts, meaning he 
> cannot now become a worldling. Is it a question of choice? I think not.
> It is just that those dhammas don't arise in relation to his
> accumulations.
> Does he therefore have less 'power' to control than us worldlings. I
> think
> not, because 'no one' has any power over any dhamma since there
> is no 'one' anywhere.
> We as worldlings are 'powered' mostly by our kilesas, whereas the
> ariyan by his accumulated panna and at the moment of any activity
> sati and panna just perform their functions as impersonally as our avija
> do when conditions for it to arise, arises. 
> Except in the case of the ariyan, his cittas have more power than ours, 
> because they comprise of more no. of cetasikas than do akusala cittas.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Best,
> Sukin.
> 
> ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
>  wrote:
> > --- 
> > ---  "yuzhonghao"  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > "The Buddha on reflection found that a group of five hundred 
> > > > bhikkhus 
> > > > had meditated on insubstantiality or non-self (anatta)[long ago 
> > > > during the time of Kassapa Buddha ]. So, he said, "Bhikkhus, all 
> > > > khandha aggregates are insubstantial; they are not subject to 
> > one's 
> > > > control."
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Which verse in Dhammapada is the quote above from?
> > > 
> > > Dear Victor, 
> > Here is the link I took this from. It was published by The Burma 
> > Pitaka society
> > http://www.buddhism.ndirect.co.uk/dmpada2j.htm#277279
> > The original section I posted carried on 
> > 
> > "Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
> > Verse 279. "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one 
> sees 
> > this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i. e., the 
> > khandhas). This is the Path to Purity. 
> > 
> > At the end of the discourse all those five hundred bhikkhus attained 
> > arahatship. ""
> > Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 
> > Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
> > best wishes
> > robert


 
13748 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 1:01am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Oiiii..........

 
  Dear Ans 
Some discussions you may find technical, just skip them and see for a while
whether there are others that are to your taste. We had quite a number of
topics on forgiving, giving protection, dana, feeling disturbed when others
insult you, patience, offering music to the Triple Gem, how should a manager
behave in a working situation, anger, etc. It is vacation time and we do not
have many mails now, and therefore, there may not be such variety of topics.
Wait until Sarah returns from Sri Lanka next week. You could start yourself
a topic on daily life, most welcome, I like it very much!
Abhidhamma may seem technical but it is all about daily life. It may take
time before you can see this. Abhidhamma teaches what seeing, hearing,
thinking, attachment, aversion, metta are. It teaches the conditions for all
that happens. Is that not daily life? The teachings are deep and difficult
to understand and thus we need patience and perseverance to study them. At
the same time we should not forget the application of the teachings. There
should be a balance between study and what you call the <humanism portion>.
Sometimes we may be so engrossed in the texts that we forget daily life. I
understand your remarks that one cannot analyze everything in a scientific
way. Than one could miss out the essence. So, don't go away, we need people
like you. The members of the group make the group, and if we just passively
wait, Sarah calls it lurking, seeing what will come up, we may become
disappointed. It depends on each one of us whether the conversations and
discussions are interesting or not.
With metta, 
Nina

op 11-06-2002 09:07 schreef ANS op <>:
> Anyone knows any active mailing list in which many traditions of buddhism
> join ?
> This one is too technical (focus primary on Abidhamma)....not much humanism
> portion.
> Foreigners learning buddhism like pick up and tear off dead
> body......heavily depend on
> reasoning and intellectualism......buddhism is about life not just technical
> matters....
> If you pick up a flower, you won't tear it apart and analyze its part to
> find out why it looks so beautiful and smell so fragrance, will you..?
> You will only just smell and taste the beauty.....
> By the way, I am an Easterner (Indonesian) and I am a romantic guy so I do
> not like technical things too much ^_^, my  regards to all of you.

 
13749 From: Ken and Visakha Kawasaki   
Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:37pm
Subject: Strive On With Diligence, CD-Rom and Video

 
  Dear Friends,

It was in 1979, as we were traveling around the world, while visiting the 
Great Stupa at Sanchi, to be exact, that we realized we were 
Buddhist.  During that year-long trip, we extensively photographed Buddhist 
sites and art everywhere we travelled.  After completing the trip, which 
had become a personal pilgrimage, we began assembling some of the many 
slides we had accumulated into a slide presentation which we were able to 
show, not only in the United States and Japan, but also in Bangkok at 
MahaChula University, and in refugee camps in Thailand and the 
Philippines.  During the next ten years, as we continued visiting Southeast 
Asia and various Buddhist temples in many countries, we filled in the gaps 
in our presentation of the life of Buddha and his teaching.  About twelve 
years ago, we finalized the selection of photographs and refined the 
script.  Using the best equipment available to us at the time, Buddhist 
Relief Mission recorded the entire presentation onto a ninety-minute video 
which we called "Strive On With Diligence, The Buddha and His 
Teaching."  This video has been widely distributed throughout the world and 
praised by scholars and respected monks as an excellent introduction to the 
Dhamma, suitable for teaching children, as well as adults who are 
interested in Buddhist art from virtually every tradition.

One of our goals in creating the presentation was to demonstrate that the 
stories from the life of Buddha have been depicted similarly, but each with 
a unique flavor, in many countries.  Our explanation of Dhamma, of course, 
favors Theravada, but we have included art and practice from the Mahayana 
traditions of China, Vietnam, Japan,  Korea, and Tibet.

The narration was carefully researched to conform with the Pali texts.  The 
soundtrack includes music from many ethnic traditions and chanting from Sri 
Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Japan, and Korea.

About two years ago, Metta Multi-Media in Australia began converting the 
entire video of 285 color slides to CD-format.  We are proud to announce 
that the project has been successfully completed.  The finished product is 
ready for distribution.

A few of the photos in "Strive On With Diligence, The Buddha and His 
Teaching" can be viewed on the Buddhist Relief Mission website at
http//www.brelief.org/strphoto.htm

As has been our policy with the video, Buddhist Relief Mission is happy to 
offer this as dana to members of the Sangha.  We ask that laypeople pay for 
the tape or disk (with the money received supporting BRM projects).  Both 
formats are still available.  We also ask that neither the Video nor CD be 
copied for unauthorized distribution.

VHS (PAL or NTSC)  is US$25 (including shipping)

CD (for Windows 95 or higher) is US$15 in the United States and US$20 overseas.

Those in Australia might prefer to contact Metta Multi-Media for a copy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=029056114165158135072038031056147223152105238192197109009242077205015143149061239025
or visit their website
http//www.mettamultimedia.com.au

We also hope to set up distribution centers in Sri Lanka and UK, but these 
have not yet been confirmed.

If you are interested in "Strive On With Diligence, The Buddha and His 
Teaching," CD or video, please send a message to Buddhist Relief Mission
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=014075080150042132090057203085172239248102057149209121182190

Thank you very much.
Ken and Visakha Kawasaki

Please visit our websites
Buddhist Relief Mission <http://www.brelief.org/>
Burmese Relief Center--USA <http://www.brelief.net/>
Relief Notes 2002 <http://home.earthlink.net/~brelief>

 
13750 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:32am
Subject: Greetings from Sri Lanka

 
  Hi everyone

A brief hello from out hotel near Sigiriya, which the group will visit
this morning.  Some of us are staying behind for discussion with Kh.
Sujin, since there has not been much opportunity to date.

On Tuesday we visited the ancient and famous sites at Anuradhapura, the
captil and monastic centre at the time of Buddhaghosa, and yesterday the
later capital of Pollonaruwa.

Jon


 
13751 From: <> 
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:22am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Hi Goglerr, good to have you back. Anything to report from your retreat?

Thanks for the references. So cuti citta is basically the last bhavanga
citta. We get a preview of the next life's patisandhi citta in the last
javana process, before the cuti-citta. Correct?

As I understand it we don't experience bhavanga citta which is the same
as patisandhi and cuti. How about this preview at the last javana? Can
we experience that? Why are we not conscious of all the consciousnesses?
If we train in satipatthana and cognize this last javana with sati will
the patisandhi citta of the next life be with sati? 

thanks, Larry

ps, we haven't studied javana yet

 
13752 From: <> 
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:35am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Hi Robert, thanks for the Visuddhimagga references. I haven't had time
to look into this yet but I was wondering if you could say a few words
about how the death and rebirth process in cittas corresponds to
paticcasamupada.

Also, I was wondering where does the heart base come from in this
process.

thanks, Larry

 
13753 From: kenhowardau   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 4:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Ken O, Sukin and all

These perennial `no control' discussions are always inspiring to me --
albeit as a lurker -- so thanks for keeping them going.

As Victor reminds us, the Buddha did exhort us to have control over
ourselves, but we must remember that `ourselves' is a conventional
term for the presently arising five khandhas.  So in what way can
there be control within the presently arising five khandhas?  It has
been some time since I last read Nina's "Cetasikas," but I gather 
that, among the sankhara khandhas, there can be one that marshalls the
others, one that concentrates the others, and so on.  I think that 
control of this kind is the only control possible.

Whenever we catch ourselves thinking we can control how the five
khandhas will arise in the future, we would do well to remember the
Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: "Consciousness [etc.,] is not self. If
consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lend itself to
dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness,
'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' 

Thanks again for the excellent discussions, I hope I am understanding
them correctly.

Kind regards
Ken H

 
 
13754 From: ANS   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:23pm
Subject: FW: Consequences of upgrading your computer

 
  Did you know a Zen Master…who got enlightened by laughing…?

Metta,

ANS

Subject: Fw: Consequences of upgrading your computer

> Technical Support for ALL ladies
>
>
> Dear Tech Support,
>
> Last  year  I upgraded from Boyfriend 5.0 to Husband 1.0 & noticed that
the
> new  program  began  making  unexpected  changes to the accounting
modules,
> limiting  access  to  flower  &  jewelry  applications  that  had
operated
> flawlessly  in  Boyfriend  5.0.  In  addition, Husband 1.0 uninstalled
many
> other  valuable  programs,  such  as  Romance 9.9 but installed
undesirable
> programs  such as  TV sports 5.0. Conversation 8.0 no longer runs and
House
> Cleaning  2.6  simply  crashes the system. I've tried running Nagging 5.3
&
> Whining 4.0 to fix these problems, but to no avail.
>
> Please HELP!
>
> Regards,
> Mrs. Desperate
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
___________________________
>
> Dear Desperate,
>
> Keep  in mind, Boyfriend 5.0 is an entertainment package, while Husband
1.0
> is  a  routine operating system. Try to enter the command: C:\I THOUGHT
YOU
> LOVED ME & install Tears 6.2. Husband 1.0 should then automatically run
the
> applications:  Guilty  3.0  &  Flowers 7.0. But remember, overuse can
cause
> Husband  1.0  to default to Grumpy Silence 2.5, Happy Hour 7.0 or Beer
6.1.
> (Beer   6.1   will  create  loud  snoring  sound  waves.)  Do  NOT
install
> Mother-in-law  1.0  or  reinstall  another Boyfriend program. These are
not
> supported  applications and will crash Husband 1.0. In summary, Husband
1.0
> is  a  great  program,  but  does  have  limited  memory  & can't learn
new
> applications  quickly.  Consider  buying  additional  software  to
improve
> performance. I personally recommend hot food 3.0 & Sexy Lingerie 5.3.
>
> New versions,  Husband 2.0, are hardly on the market and disappear
quickly.
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Tech Support
>
>



 
13755 From: ANS   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:29pm
Subject: THE POOR CAN TEACH US

 
  THE POOR CAN TEACH US

      We have homes for the sick and dying...in Australia, England, Africa,
the Middle East, India, Latin America, Europe.

      In some places we don't have a home for the dying destitutes, but we
have numerous shut-ins whose homes are really homes for the dying--- where
people die as a number, not as human beings with dignity. When they die,
sometimes nobody even knows their names.

      What great poverty!  Are we aware of that? Do we know what fear is?
Do we know the lonely? And the sick? Do we know the unwanted and the
unloved? Do we know the hungry? Do we really know what hunger is?

      I'll give you an example of what hunger is. A child got a piece of
bread from a Sister. (He had not eaten for some time.) I saw that child
eating the bread slowly, crumb by crumb. I said to him, "I know you are
hungry. Why don't you eat the bread up?"

     The little one answered, "I want it to last longer!"
     He was afraid that when he finished the bread, his hunger would come
back again. And so he ate it crumb by crumb!

     The child next to him was not even eating. I thought that he had
finished his bread. But the little one said, "My father is sick, I'm very
hungry, but my father is sick, and I think he would love to have this piece
of bread."

     That good little child was willing to go without food to be able to
give his father the joy of having a little piece of bread.
     The poor are great people!. They aren't asking us to feel sorry for
them...they deserve our love.

By Mother Teresa,  "The Heart of Joy" (excerpts)






 
13756 From: ANS   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:33pm
Subject: WHAT HAPPENS AFTER MARRIAGE

 
  HERES PRECISELY WHAT HAPPENS AFTER
                             MARRIAGE


                                 #CASE 1


             Getting married is like going to a restaurant with friends.
                          You order what you want,
                   then when you see what the other fellow has,
                         you wish you had ordered that.



                                 #CASE 2


                            At the cocktail party,
                          one woman said to another,
           "Aren't you wearing your wedding ring on the wrong finger??"
             The other replied, "Yes, I am. I married the wrong man."



                                 #CASE 3


                   Before a man is married, he is incomplete.
                     Then when he is married, he is finished.

                                 #CASE 4


        Marriage is an institution in which a man losses his bachelor's
degree
                    and the woman gets her master's status.


                                 #CASE 5


                         A little boy asked his father,
                "Daddy, how much does it cost to get married??"
          And the father replied, "I don't know son, I'm still paying for
it."



                                 #CASE 6


          Young son : "Is it true, Dad, I heard that in some parts of
Africa,
                a man doesn't know his wife until he marries her?"
                  Dad : "That happens in most countries son."



                                 #CASE 7


                        Then there was a man who said,
             "I never knew whatreal happiness was until I got married,
                           and then it was too late."



                                 #CASE 8

                  A happy marriage is a matter of give and take;
                      the husband gives and the wife takes



                                 #CASE 9


              When a newly married man looks happy, we know why.
                  But when a ten-year married man looks happy,
                           we wonder why. Affair ?



                                #CASE 10


                        Married life is very frustrating.
         In the first year of marriage, the man speaks and the woman
listens.
             In the second year, the woman speaks and the man listens.
            In the third year, they both speak and the neighbours listen.



                                #CASE 11


                   After a quarrel, a wife said to her husband,
                  "You know, I was a fool when I married you."
                          And the Husband replied,
                 "Yes, dear, but I was in love and didn't notice it."



                                #CASE 12


                    A man inserted an 'ad' in the classified :
                              "Wife wanted".
                   The next day, he received hundreds letters.
                         They all said the same thing
                            "You can have mine."



                                #CASE 13


                When a man opens the door of his car for his wife,
                         you can be sure of one thing :
                     either the car is new or his wife is new.



                                #CASE 14


                       A woman was telling her friend :
                  "It is I who made my husband a millionaire."
                  "And what was he before you married him?"
                              the friend asked.
                    The woman replied, "A multimillionaire "

 
13757 From: ANS   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 3:50pm
Subject: FW: VISION - Gibran

 
  VISION - Gibran

There in the middle of the field, by the side of a crystalline stream, I saw
a bird-cage whose rods and hinges were fashioned by an expert's hands. In
one corner lay a dead bird, and in another were two basins -- one empty of
water and the other of seeds. I stood there reverently, as if the lifeless
bird and the murmur of the water were worthy of deep silence and respect --
something worth of examination and meditation by the heart and conscience.

As I engrossed myself in view and thought, I found that the poor creature
had died of thirst beside a stream of water, and of hunger in the midst of a
rich field, cradle of life; like a rich man locked inside his iron safe,
perishing from hunger amid heaps of gold.

Before my eyes I saw the cage turned suddenly into a human skeleton, and the
dead bird into a man's heart which was bleeding from a deep wound that
looked like the lips of a sorrowing woman. A voice came from that wound
saying, "I am the human heart, prisoner of substance and victim of earthly
laws.

"In God's field of Beauty, at the edge of the stream of life, I was
imprisoned in the cage of laws made by man.
"In the center of beautiful Creation I died neglected because I was kept
from enjoying the freedom of God's bounty.

"Everything of beauty that awakens my love and desire is a disgrace,
according to man's conceptions; everything of goodness that I crave is but
naught, according to his judgment.

"I am the lost human heart, imprisoned in the foul dungeon of man's
dictates, tied with chains of earthly authority, dead and forgotten by
laughing humanity whose tongue is tied and whose eyes are empty of visible
tears."

All these words I heard, and I saw them emerging with a stream of ever
thinning blood from that wounded heart. More was said, but my misted eyes
and crying should prevented further sight or hearing.

 
13758 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 6:04pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  ---
Dear Larry,
While avijja, ignorance, the first link in the Paticcasamuppada is 
still latent there is the condition for formations, sankhara and for 
rebirth. The link of upadana, grasping, is of 4 types: one is desire 
for objects through the senses and the other three are aspects of 
wrong view. The three that are wrong view must be eliminated, by 
understanding, before there can be the eradication of sense desire. 
The Paticcasamuppada explains the rebirth process, how there is 
nobody anywhere involved in it. 
The citta which is patisandhi citta is vipaka, result of kamma; it 
may be because of good kamma or bad.
There is a good section on this in the Visuddhimagga.
best wishes
robert
  <> wrote:
> Hi Robert, thanks for the Visuddhimagga references. I haven't had 
time
> to look into this yet but I was wondering if you could say a few 
words
> about how the death and rebirth process in cittas corresponds to
> paticcasamupada.
> 
> Also, I was wondering where does the heart base come from in this
> process.
> 
> thanks, Larry

 
13759 From: azita gill   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:29pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Consequences of upgrading your computer

 
  --- ANS  wrote: > Did you
know a Zen Master…who got enlightened by
> laughing…?
> 
> Metta,
> 
> ANS
> 
> ,   dear ANS,      I'm wondering if you realize what
dsg. stands for, because I think some of your posts
are most inappropriate for a dhamma study group.   I
guess some people may find them amusing, however I
personally have joined this group for the sole purpose
of making dhamma friends and to study the Buddha
Dhamma.      Please be aware that there are some rules
attached to dsg. and that what you are sending is not
really acceptable.      If you have dhamma questions,
please, by all means, stay but if it's just silly chat
I'm sure there are more suitable groups for you.      
a                    with metta,
   > > [                  Azita         > 
>  
> 
> 
>  

http://www.sold.com.au/ - SOLD.com.au
- Find yourself a bargain!

 
13760 From: phoenix_fo   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:01pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Consequences of upgrading your computer

 
  Sorry :( if you could show me another groups in which i can get more 
relax and still able to learn the Dhamma, i will get out from this 
group.....

Metta,

ANS

---  azita gill  wrote:
>  --- ANS  wrote: > Did you
> know a Zen Master…who got enlightened by
> > laughing…?
> > 
> > Metta,
> > 
> > ANS
> > 
> > ,   dear ANS,      I'm wondering if you realize what
> dsg. stands for, because I think some of your posts
> are most inappropriate for a dhamma study group.   I
> guess some people may find them amusing, however I
> personally have joined this group for the sole purpose
> of making dhamma friends and to study the Buddha
> Dhamma.      Please be aware that there are some rules
> attached to dsg. and that what you are sending is not
> really acceptable.      If you have dhamma questions,
> please, by all means, stay but if it's just silly chat
> I'm sure there are more suitable groups for you.      
> a                    with metta,
>    > > [                  Azita         > 
> >  
> > 

 
13761 From: ranil gunawardena   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka

 
  Hi Jon,

Warm welcome to Sri Lanka. Waiting to meet you all tomorrow...

~meththa
ranil



 
13762 From: Jonothan Abbott   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:53pm
Subject: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka II

 
  Ranil and All

This morning we (Sarah, Christine, Betty, Sukin and I) skipped the visit
to Sigiriya and stayed at the hotel for dhamma discussion with Khun Sujin.
 Our hotel was cleverly built right against, or into, a cliff with jungle
growing right up the sides of the hotel and a great view out over a lake
and plain.  A very pleasant morning.

This afternoon we drove to Kandy, and on the way stopped at Alu Vihara, a
rock/cave temple famous for being the site where the tipitaka was first
recorded in writteen form (on palm leaf) at the time of the 4th (I think)
great Council, having been until that time passed down by recitation. 
Very inspiring to consider.

Tomorrow we have a 4:00 AM wake-up for an early visit to the Temple of the
Tooth in Kandy.

Ranil, thanks very much for the welcome, and we look forward to meeting
you, Sumane and others in Colombo tomorrow.

Jon

 --- ranil gunawardena  wrote: > Hi Jon,
> 
> Warm welcome to Sri Lanka. Waiting to meet you all tomorrow...
> 
> ~meththa
> ranil
> 
> 


 
13763 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:05pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Ken H and all,


---  "kenhowardau"  wrote:
> Ken O, Sukin and all
> 
> These perennial `no control' discussions are always inspiring to 
me --
> albeit as a lurker -- so thanks for keeping them going.
> 
> As Victor reminds us, the Buddha did exhort us to have control over
> ourselves, but we must remember that `ourselves' is a conventional
> term for the presently arising five khandhas.  



Be very careful.  Each and every aggregate is not self.  The five 
aggregates are not self.  The word "self" is not a term for the five 
aggregates.


[snip]
> Whenever we catch ourselves thinking we can control how the five
> khandhas will arise in the future, we would do well to remember the
> Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: "Consciousness [etc.,] is not self. If
> consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lend itself to
> dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness,
> 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'"



Likewise, whenever we catch ourselves thinking we CANNOT control how 
the five khandhas will arise in the future, we would do well to 
remember the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: "Consciousness [etc.,] is not 
self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lend 
itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to 
consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
not be thus.'"


The quote does not say whether one can control how the five 
aggregates will arise in the future.


Question for all,
According to the quote above, does consciousness have control over 
itself?  Why or why not?



> 
> Thanks again for the excellent discussions, I hope I am 
understanding
> them correctly.
> 
> Kind regards
> Ken H

Regards,
Victor

 
13764 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:33pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Robert and all,

> The Paticcasamuppada explains the rebirth process, how there is 
> nobody anywhere involved in it. 

The paticcasamuppada does not explain how there is nobody anythere 
involved in it, nor does it explain how there is somebody somewhere 
involved in it.

Regards,
Victor

 
13765 From: goglerr   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 0:56am
Subject: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Hi Larry, so how's everything with you? Wish you and you family are 
well.
   
---  <> wrote:

> Hi Goglerr, good to have you back. Anything to report from your 
retreat?
G: Well, retreat was great, hopefully a little bit wiser, a little 
bit nearer. 

> Thanks for the references. So cuti citta is basically the last 
bhavanga citta. We get a preview of the next life's patisandhi citta 
in the last javana process, before the cuti-citta. Correct?

G: True, the last javana process, if I'm not mistaken, are the ones 
that would determine the next rebirth. And the conditions that 
determine that these javana processes are dependent on the kamma 
(with the order of ripening) i.e 1) weighty kamma 2) death proximate 
kamma 3) habitual kamma 4) reserve kamma. Our next life is not only 
condition by just death-proximate kamma (it can be!), it can just be 
any kamma within this life or other previous lives. As to your 
question below, truly, I do not have the slighest idea, even if we 
will die with mindfulness, what is the next destination for us. Who 
can tell, by the way?
 
> As I understand it we don't experience bhavanga citta which is the 
same as patisandhi and cuti. How about this preview at the last 
javana? Can we experience that? Why are we not conscious of all the 
consciousnesses? If we train in satipatthana and cognize this last 
javana with sati will the patisandhi citta of the next life be with 
sati? 

G: We experience bhavanga citta even in our daily waking life. It 
occurs in between cognitive process, changing from one object to 
another object. Even a simple movement of an arm, bhavanga cittas  
arises and passes away 'in between' of the movement of the hand. 
Other words, that movement only consist of many cognitive processes, 
and in between those cognitive processes, bhavanga cittas arise and 
pass away. So there are limitless times these cittas arise and pass 
away in our daily waking life. Patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta and 
cuti citta can be look in simple terms. Patisandhi citta is the 
renewal (beginning) of a life faculty, bhavanga citta is the 
sustaining of the life faculty, and cuti citta is the ending of the 
life faculty. 

G: The reason that we are not conscious of all the cittas, bcos our 
mind is not sharp and penetrative in the realities. We need the very 
powerful mental effort (viriya), sati and samadhi but these mental 
faculties are also fluctuating, due the natural characteristics of 
impermanent, unsatifactoriness and conditioned (uncontrolable). It's 
only during retreat settings that the arising and passing away of 
consciousnesses can be 'seen'. Larry, it is not important if we can 
preview or even diferentiate all the classes of citta with the power 
of mindfulness as acording to abhidhamma. What is IMPORTANT, with the 
practice and power of mindfulness, to be able to directly 'see' the 
arising and passing away of the citta (disregard of whatever kind of 
citta) so that the unfoldment of the anicca, dukkha or anatta can be 
realised, and insights will arise and therefore later magga and phala 
nana will arise, and defilement will be cut off, and samsara is 
shorten. So the satipatthana is not use to cognize the last javana 
processses or the patisandhi or the cuti citta. After a person has 
fully enlightened, gain his/her arahatta magga and phala nana, the 
analytical knowledges may arise together. Some arahat may not have 
it. These are just bonuses (analytical knowledges)! And they can 
precisely explained the functions and process of all the 
consciuosnesses. First thing first, we have to be throughly train in 
the 4 satipatthana in order to realize Nibbana, then whatever comes 
next are bonuses.


> 
> ps, we haven't studied javana yet
G: ps - I still have not finished the samsaric journey yet, still 
have many retreats to go, perhaps many more lives to go (hopefully 
not!) 

Goglerr :-)

 
13766 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  Dear Victor, thank you for the texts, do you find it difficult to follow
them up? What, if we meet difficult persons, and what about guarding one's
thoughts? They are so very fast.
It is good to consider sila. This makes me think of the perfection of sila
the Bodhisatta accumulated. I quote something from the Commentary to the
Cariyapitaka, the Basket of Conduct:

<Great Man desires to adorn beings with the adornment of the virtue of the
omniscient, at the beginning he must first purify his own virtue. Herein,
virtue is purified in four modes:
1. by the purification of one¹s inclinations (ajjhåsayavisuddhi);
2. by the undertaking of precepts (samådåna);
3. by non-transgression (avítikkamana);
4. by making amends for transgressions (patipåkatikaraùa).

For someone who is dominated by personal ideals is naturally disgusted with
evil through the purity of his own inclinations and purifies his conduct by
arousing his inward sense of shame (hiri). Someone else who is dominated by
a consideration for the world, afraid of evil, purifies his conduct by
receiving precepts from another person and by arousing his sense of moral
dread (ottappa). Both establish themselves in virtue through
non-transgression.
But if, due to forgetfulness, they sometimes break a precept, through their
sense of shame and moral dread, respectively, they quickly make amends for
it through the proper means of rehabilitation.>

Further on we read again :

<When he commits a transgression he acknowledges it as such and confesses it
to his co-religionists. Afterwards he perfectly fulfils the right practice.>

When the sobhana cetasikas of sati, shame and moral dread do not arise there
cannot be the observing of sila. I like to consider the point of making
amends. The monks have to make amends according to the Vinaya, and this
reminds them to be more heedful in the future. Also laypeople can apply this
in their own situation. However, conceit may be in the way. We need humility
to recognize our faults and to give expression to this when we were
irritable in speech, or did other wrongs. We are inclined to cling to "my
important personality". A saying of A. Sujin: we have to belittle ourselves
from head to toe. How? Seeing ourselves as only insignificant elements which
do not last. But there is still a long way to go.
Thank you for the reminder.

op 11-06-2002 22:57 schreef yuzhonghao op Victor:

> Hi Nina,
> 
> Let me respond your message by quoting the following:
> 
> 231. Let a man guard himself against irritability in bodily action;
> let him be controlled in deed. Abandoning bodily misconduct, let him
> practice good conduct in deed.
> 
> 232. Let a man guard himself against irritability in speech; let him
> be controlled in speech. Abandoning verbal misconduct, let him
> practice good conduct in speech.
> 
> 233. Let a man guard himself against irritability in thought; let him
> be controlled in mind. Abandoning mental misconduct, let him practice
> good conduct in thought.
> 
> 234. The wise are controlled in bodily action, controlled in speech
> and controlled in thought. They are truly well-controlled.
> 
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/17.html#231
> 
> I hope you find the quote inspiring for practicing in daily life.
>

 
13767 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Dear Rob, Goglerr, Larry and all,

Thank you for your remarks, an important subject to consider. I would like
to add a quotation from the Dispeller of Delusion (Commentary to the Book of
Analysis of the Abhidhamma) Ch 4, 101, about three kinds of death:
<Furthermore, this division too should be known, namely, momentary death
(khanika marana), conventional death (sammuti marana) and death as cutting
off (samuccheda marana). >

As explained by Gogler and Rob, momentary death is the falling away at each
moment of the khandhas and conventional death takes place when the dying
consciousness falls away. Death as cutting off: the final passing away of
the arahat who does not have to be reborn.

I like to be reminded of momentary death, and I quote what Robert wrote:
<At this moment this process of arising and passing, birth and death,
(khanika marana) occurs but because of ignorance we don't perceive
it. But
truly we are utterly different from what we were a second ago - the
reason
we look and feel approximately the same is because similar conditions
arise to replace the mentality and materiality that fell away.>

I remember when we were in Sri Lanka with A. Sujin that she spoke about the
falling away of citta: <It is a kind of death>. Only through the development
of insight can we see the full implications of it: at the fourth stage, when
the arising and falling away of nama and rupa is directly realized by
pa~n~naa. We could be encouraged to begin again and again to be aware of
what appears now, even if there is not yet clear understanding of the
present reality. Before insight knowledge arises we can only reflect on
momentary death. We also spoke with A. Sujin about fear of death: the
falling away of the last citta of this life is just like now, it is just one
short moment. No need for fear. We may be afraid of moments of pain before
that but not of the last moment.
A while ago we discussed with Sarah about the khandhas which have fallen
away, but about which we keep on thinking, for example about what people did
and said to us. 
There is nothing left of what has fallen away. No grudge or feelings of
vengeance, and we can <quickly make amends> when we have done something
wrong, as I quoted for Victor. The thought of momentary death can help us to
find ourselves less important, but thinking is not enough for the
eradication of conceit.

Larry also asked:   4. What is experience? Why are some cittas experienced
and 
> others not?

N: Are you seeing now? Is it an experience? What is experienced is <not in
the book> as A. Sujin would say. We notice cittas such as seeing, hearing or
thinking, they are real, they can be experienced. To be more precise:
another citta notices, cognizes or experiences a previous citta. Citta
experiences an object which can be nama, rupa or a concept. Some cittas
experience with pa~n~naa, some without it. When sati and pa~n~naa accompany
the citta, a characteristic of nama or rupa can be experienced.
It depends on conditions what kind of object a particular citta takes, it
may be hearing or a citta with aversion, who could predict that?
You are asking basic questions. We take things so much for granted, but when
we consider cittas and their objects we see that this is a complicated
subject. 

Best wishes, 
Nina.

 
13768 From: Nina van Gorkom   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 1:00am
Subject: Re: [dsg] discussions in Sri Lanka

 
  Dear Ranil, thank you for your good wishes. We cannot come to Sri Lanka, and
I would appreciate it very much if you can tell us about the discussions.
Where there many Singalese friends? I am very keen to hear about it,
best wishes, 
Nina. 

op 12-06-2002 09:52 schreef ranil gunawardena op :

> I am so happy to have your reply. And best wishers and feelings of joy for
> your golden wedding anniversary - to both of you. And wishers for a long
> life to both of you doing all your good work to this world. I hope you are
> also coming to Sri Lanka, arent you? Just days more.
>

 
 
13769 From: azita gill   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 6:07am
Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Consequences of upgrading your computer

 
  --- phoenix_fo  wrote: >
Sorry :( if you could show me another groups in
> which i can get more 
> relax and still able to learn the Dhamma, i will get
> out from this 
> group.....
> 
> Metta,
> 
> ANS
> 
.>    Dear ANS,   I accept your apology.   I am giving
you some web sites on dhamma, and encourage you to
stay with dsg.  There are some very knowledgable
people here with wonderful answers for any of our
questions.  As Nina has stated, some are away at the
moment, but will return soon.  >  
>      www.abhidhamma.org/abhid.html
>      www.zolag.co.uk.  www.accesstoinsight.org/canon
.                        ,              may all beings
be happy,                a                       
Azita                    

http://www.sold.com.au/ - SOLD.com.au
- Find yourself a bargain!

 
13770 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 6:34am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  Nina,

Thanks for your reply.  

A saying of A. Sujin: we have to belittle ourselves
> from head to toe. How? Seeing ourselves as only insignificant 
elements which
> do not last. But there is still a long way to go.



And the first step is to stop seeing ourselves as elements which do 
not last.

Please see
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html

Regards,
Victor

 
13771 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:55am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Hi Nina, thanks for your comments.

I've been mulling over a doubt concerning momentary death, conventional
death, and impermanence in general. Would it be correct to say that
every citta with its cetasikas is preserved forever in memory until
cutting off death? It seems that memory doesn't die or get used up. Also
I was wondering how rupa is preserved in memory. Is it the citta that
cognizes the rupa that is remembered or is the rupa itself remembered?

thanks for your help, Larry

 
13772 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:18am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Hi goglerr, thanks for your clarifications and incouragement to train in
satipattthana. I didn't understand what you meant when you said we
experience bhavanga citta in our daily life. Could you elaborate on
that; it just seems like a gap to me. Also how does bhavanga citta
affect  other cittas? Does it predispose us to thinking and reacting in
certain ways?

Also I was wondering if we are destined to be reborn to a certain
couple. If so, then we couldn't die until they are engaged in
appropriate activity. If we get whoever is available, it might be best
to try very hard to not die until saturday night so there is the maximum
number of choices. What do you think?

Larry

 
13773 From: <> 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:34am
Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patisandhi-citta

 
  Thanks Robert, I'll look into the Visuddhimagga this weekend and see if
I can come up with a correlation between the two ways of explaining
rebirth. 

Larry

 
13774 From: asterix_wins   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:40pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from Sri Lanka II

 
  dear jon,

> 
> This afternoon we drove to Kandy, and on the way stopped at Alu 
Vihara, a
> rock/cave temple famous for being the site where the tipitaka was 
first
> recorded in writteen form (on palm leaf) at the time of the 4th (I 
think)
> great Council, having been until that time passed down by 
recitation. 
> Very inspiring to consider.

all good news.. :o)

yes Alu Vihara is an inspiration..
Alu in Sinhala is the Pali/Sanskrit version of Aaloka ( Light )

indeed the Temple of Light,.

> 
> Tomorrow we have a 4:00 AM wake-up for an early visit to the Temple 
of the
> Tooth in Kandy.
> 
> Ranil, thanks very much for the welcome, and we look forward to 
meeting
> you, Sumane and others in Colombo tomorrow.


hope you will have a wonderful day..

rgds,
gayan

 
13775 From: kenhowardau   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:55pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Hi Victor,

Thanks for your response.

The way we learn anatta is by seeing it in the dhammas that arise in
the present moment -- they are not self.  Aren't you being like
the wandering ascetic who challenged the Buddha to say either,
`there is a self' or, `there is no self'?  Apparently, there is a
danger that some of us will take `there is no self' to mean
that there was a self but now its gone, lost forever.  I suspect we 
all feel that to some degree.

You wrote: 
 
> 
> Be very careful.  Each and every aggregate is not self.  The five 
> aggregates are not self.  The word "self" is not a term for the 
five 
> aggregates.
> 
------------
Interesting. No doubt you are familiar with the simile of the 
chariot. . . So you seem to be saying that the five khandhas arising 
together form what is conventionally known as a living being, but not 
what is conventionally known as a self. 

Have I understood you correctly?  If so, I think you're making a
big mistake, there is no magic in the word self. Whether we say 
chariot, man, woman, yourself, myself, self, it's all about a
number of parts being conventionally referred to as a whole.  

 ---------------
> 
> Likewise, whenever we catch ourselves thinking we CANNOT control 
how 
> the five khandhas will arise in the future, we would do well to 
> remember the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: "Consciousness [etc.,] is not 
> self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lend 
> itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to 
> consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness 
> not be thus.'"
> --------------------

Yes but why?  It would only be because we are mistakenly thinking
there is a self who lacks control.  It would not be because we are
thinking there is no control over the arising of dhammas. If the
khandhas were self (conventional entities), there would be control, 
but they are not self and there is no control.

--------------------------
> 
> The quote does not say whether one can control how the five 
> aggregates will arise in the future.
> 
-----------------------------
`Can one control the arising of aggregates' is the wrong
question.  It presupposes a self who may or may not be able to 
control.  The answer, "no, of course not!" though correct,
would have the same counterproductive effect as, "there was a 
controlling self but it's gone!"

> Question for all,
> According to the quote above, does consciousness have control over 
> itself?  Why or why not?
> 
> 
-------------------------
Would `read the quote again, Victor,' be the right answer? :-)  I 
must admit, you've got me going in circles; I should be asking 
questions, not answering them.  

I think the `control' that is described as `let my consciousness be
thus,' is to be understood as belonging to conventional reality
only. Would `control is not real' be better than `there is no
control'? 

A question for you, Victor:  Is self (atta), more than just a
conventional expression?  Does it refer to something none of us has
mentioned yet?

Kind regards
Ken H

 
13776 From: Kenneth Ong   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 4:45pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  Hi Nina

Hmm will it be conterproductive as it might arise aversion

kind regards
Ken O



> Thanks for your reply.  
> 
> A saying of A. Sujin: we have to belittle ourselves
> > from head to toe. How? Seeing ourselves as only insignificant 
> elements which
> > do not last. But there is still a long way to go.
> 
> 



 
13777 From: asterix_wins   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:07pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  dear kenneth and nina,

IMHO
this 'belittling' approach has helped me immensely when I was facing 
much suffering.
When contemplating how insignficant the 'my' particular mind and 
matter, the suffering seemed to be ceasing to a 'manageable' level.

It was stressful when the problems were coming to the 'Very Important 
and Dear Me'
but it was less stressful when the problems were coming to the 'not 
so important and insignificant , one of many , Me '

then even the aversion towards the problems seemed to die down.


rgds,
gayan


---  Kenneth Ong  wrote:
> Hi Nina
> 
> Hmm will it be conterproductive as it might arise aversion
> 
> kind regards
> Ken O
> 
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your reply.  
> > 
> > A saying of A. Sujin: we have to belittle ourselves
> > > from head to toe. How? Seeing ourselves as only insignificant 
> > elements which
> > > do not last. But there is still a long way to go.
> > 
> >

 
13778 From: goglerr   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:30pm
Subject: [dsg] Re: patisandhi citta

 
  ---  <> wrote:
> Hi goglerr, thanks for your clarifications and incouragement to 
train in satipattthana. I didn't understand what you meant when you 
said we experience bhavanga citta in our daily life. Could you 
elaborate on that; it just seems like a gap to me. Also how does 
bhavanga citta affect  other cittas? Does it predispose us to 
thinking and reacting in certain ways?

G: Okay, let's see where to begin. These bhavanga citta occurs in 
between of cognitive processes (the 17 thoughts moments). Whenever a 
physical object (any of the 5 sense object) impinges on the a 
physical receptor (any 5 sense receptor) bhavanga citta is arrested 
and cognitive process (active conciousnesses) occurs. Then when the 
cognitive process finished, bhavanga citta arises again. Then 
followed again by streams cognitive consciousness, and these cycle 
will repeat as long as there are still objects at that particular 
sense door. But these cycles occurs so fast, undecrible, that we 
can't can be aware of them arising and passing away. Take the earlier 
example, about the single movement of the hand. There are 
actually 'gaps' when we cognize the movement.  So these 'gaps' are 
are the bhavanga. Due to their rapidness, this is where we take 
consciousness as being a permanent entity, because we can't see the 
rapid changes that is taking place. We take them as as whole. 
Therefore we take them as self, and all other things arises.  

> Also I was wondering if we are destined to be reborn to a certain
couple. If so, then we couldn't die until they are engaged in 
appropriate activity. If we get whoever is available, it might be 
best to try very hard to not die until saturday night so there is the 
maximum number of choices. What do you think?

G: You mean soul-mates? Just use the word 'soul' for the sake of 
communication. Of course, these happen all the time. We play 
different roles through out our samsara. Sometimes we are the father, 
mother, wife husband, sister, cousin, the close friend so on and so 
forth with regards to a particular person. Let's say your spouse now, 
previous lifetimes u could be her child, other life maybe father, 
other times maybe just a friend. So many combinations, too many 
permutations. The Buddha said the beings that exists, we hardly could 
find one that has not been related to us in one way or another 
through out the immemorial samsara. Take a look at the most romantic 
story ever told, the Bodhisatta and Yasodhara (since 4 aeons and 
100,000 kappas ago). They were with each other for so so loooooong 
time. And also perhaps in this life times u may not meet her/him or 
whoever. Actually one person has many a soul mates. If u have not 
meet with that particular soul mate, because your or his/her 
unforseen death or even other situations, in next life, the show will 
carry on. There are a lot of things can be discussed. That all for 
now.  

Goglerr

 
13779 From: robertkirkpatrick.rm   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:48pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  --- 
A good testimony, Gayan. And one I can vouch for on - in minor ways 
on an almost daily basis - and with great effect in times of trauma. 
These days the times I tend to forget are when things are going 
well - I get lost in the 'me' then.
Ken O, I understand what you mean - it can be fearful, or seem 
fearful the idea of 'me' not being there any more. This is a false 
fear because there is no self even when we were truly believed it to 
be so. But false fears can be the hard to overcome..
best
robert
 "asterix_wins"  wrote:
> 
> dear kenneth and nina,
> 
> IMHO
> this 'belittling' approach has helped me immensely when I was 
facing 
> much suffering.
> When contemplating how insignficant the 'my' particular mind and 
> matter, the suffering seemed to be ceasing to a 'manageable' level.
> 
> It was stressful when the problems were coming to the 'Very 
Important 
> and Dear Me'
> but it was less stressful when the problems were coming to 
the 'not 
> so important and insignificant , one of many , Me '
> 
> then even the aversion towards the problems seemed to die down.
> 
> 
> rgds,
> gayan
> 
> 
> ---  Kenneth Ong  wrote:
> > Hi Nina
> > 
> > Hmm will it be conterproductive as it might arise aversion
> > 
> > kind regards
> > Ken O
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Thanks for your reply.  
> > > 
> > > A saying of A. Sujin: we have to belittle ourselves
> > > > from head to toe. How? Seeing ourselves as only 
insignificant 
> > > elements which
> > > > do not last. But there is still a long way to go.
> > > 
> > >

 
13780 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:34pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control(was, attachment to concept)

 
  Ken H,

Thanks for your response.

---  "kenhowardau"  wrote:
> Hi Victor,
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> The way we learn anatta is by seeing it in the dhammas that arise in
> the present moment -- they are not self.  Aren't you being like
> the wandering ascetic who challenged the Buddha to say either,
> `there is a self' or, `there is no self'?  



How did you get the idea that I am being like the wandering ascetic 
who challenged the Buddha to say either,`there is a self' or, `there 
is no self'?  



Apparently, there is a
> danger that some of us will take `there is no self' to mean
> that there was a self but now its gone, lost forever.  I suspect we 
> all feel that to some degree.
> 
> You wrote: 
>  
> > 
> > Be very careful.  Each and every aggregate is not self.  The five 
> > aggregates are not self.  The word "self" is not a term for the 
> five 
> > aggregates.
> > 
> ------------
> Interesting. No doubt you are familiar with the simile of the 
> chariot. . . So you seem to be saying that the five khandhas 
arising 
> together form what is conventionally known as a living being, but 
not 
> what is conventionally known as a self. 



Ken H, see
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html

Don't make the assumption that self is made up of the five aggregates.



> 
> Have I understood you correctly?  If so, I think you're making a
> big mistake, there is no magic in the word self. Whether we say 
> chariot, man, woman, yourself, myself, self, it's all about a
> number of parts being conventionally referred to as a whole.  



Ken H, think again.  Do not assume that you are made up of a number 
of parts.

See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
again.



> 
>  ---------------
> > 
> > Likewise, whenever we catch ourselves thinking we CANNOT control 
> how 
> > the five khandhas will arise in the future, we would do well to 
> > remember the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: "Consciousness [etc.,] is not 
> > self. If consciousness were self, this consciousness would not 
lend 
> > itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to 
> > consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my 
consciousness 
> > not be thus.'"
> > --------------------
> 
> Yes but why?  It would only be because we are mistakenly thinking
> there is a self who lacks control.  It would not be because we are
> thinking there is no control over the arising of dhammas. If the
> khandhas were self (conventional entities), there would be control, 
> but they are not self and there is no control.


I think you are starting to get the idea.  Let me put it this way, if 
the aggregates were self, the aggregates would have control over 
themselves.  They would not lend themselves to dis-ease.  But 
precisely the aggregates are not self, they have no control over 
themselves.  They lend themselves to dis-ease. 

Can one control oneself?  Yes.

231. Let a man guard himself against irritability in bodily action; 
let him be controlled in deed. Abandoning bodily misconduct, let him 
practice good conduct in deed. 

232. Let a man guard himself against irritability in speech; let him 
be controlled in speech. Abandoning verbal misconduct, let him 
practice good conduct in speech. 

233. Let a man guard himself against irritability in thought; let him 
be controlled in mind. Abandoning mental misconduct, let him practice 
good conduct in thought. 

234. The wise are controlled in bodily action, controlled in speech 
and controlled in thought. They are truly well-controlled. 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/17.html



> 
> --------------------------
> > 
> > The quote does not say whether one can control how the five 
> > aggregates will arise in the future.
> > 
> -----------------------------
> `Can one control the arising of aggregates' is the wrong
> question.  It presupposes a self who may or may not be able to 
> control.  The answer, "no, of course not!" though correct,
> would have the same counterproductive effect as, "there was a 
> controlling self but it's gone!"
> 
> > Question for all,
> > According to the quote above, does consciousness have control 
over 
> > itself?  Why or why not?
> > 
> > 
> -------------------------
> Would `read the quote again, Victor,' be the right answer? :-)  I 
> must admit, you've got me going in circles; I should be asking 
> questions, not answering them.  



The consciousness have no control over itself as it lends itself to 
dis-ease.  Why?  Precisely because consciousness is not self.



> 
> I think the `control' that is described as `let my consciousness be
> thus,' is to be understood as belonging to conventional reality
> only. Would `control is not real' be better than `there is no
> control'? 
> 
> A question for you, Victor:  Is self (atta), more than just a
> conventional expression?  Does it refer to something none of us has
> mentioned yet?
> 



Ken H, see how I used the word "self" and see how it is used in 
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/dhp1/12.html


Again, the five aggregates are not self.  The word "self" is not to 
be used to refer to the five aggregates, and don't get into 
speculating whether the word "self" refers to something else.


See
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html
again.


> Kind regards
> Ken H

Regards,
Victor

 
13781 From: yuzhonghao   
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:01pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] Control and daily life.

 
  ---  "robertkirkpatrick.rm" 
 wrote:
> --- 
> A good testimony, Gayan. And one I can vouch for on - in minor ways 
> on an almost daily basis - and with great effect in times of 
trauma. 
> These days the times I tend to forget are when things are going 
> well - I get lost in the 'me' then.
> Ken O, I understand what you mean - it can be fearful, or seem 
> fearful the idea of 'me' not being there any more. This is a false 
> fear because there is no self even when we were truly believed it 
to 
> be so. 



Regarding the statement "there is no self", see
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn44-010.html




But false fears can be the hard to overcome..
> best
> robert

 
13782 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:22pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] question for Howard

 
  Hi, Dan (and all) -

       I arrived back from my trip late last night. While away I had close to 
zero time for internet access. 

       In a message dated 6/6/02 7:13:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan writes:


> 
> Dan: What's rupakkhanda?
> Upasaka Howard: ;-)) When I first looked at this I wondered "What's 
> he talking about? He knows what that is!!", but then I got it. This 
> is related to my phenomenalist preconceptions! ;-)
> 
> --> Dan: You are right that I am asking because of your phenomenalist 
> tendencies. I have those same tendencies -- maybe not to the same 
> degree as you (didn't you once call yourself a "radical" 
> phenomologist?), but I do understand the temptation!
> 
> I find the question of 'rupakkhanda' a good one to contemplate. 
> 
> 1. "And why, bhikkhus, is it called 'rupa' (form)? 'It is 'ruppati' 
> (deformed),' therefore it is called  'rupa.' Deformed by what? 
> Deformed by cold, deformed by heat, deformed by hunger, deformed by 
> thirst, deformed by contact with flies, mostquitoes, wind, sun, and 
> serpents. 'It is deformed,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called form." 
> [SN III, 22 (Khandhasamyutta)]
> 
> This seems to speculate that there *is* something there, contrary to 
> the phenomenalist perspective which is either agnostic about 
> materiality or denies it as speculative. 
> 
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       This does not have to be so interpreted.  The Buddha, as he usually 
does, is speaking conventionally here. Flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and 
serpents are all mere concept - conceptual objects only. He is simply using 
ordinary language here to point out how to recognize those dhammas that he 
calls 'rupa' - namely, the "things" that are affected by such conventional 
objects as he lists.
-------------------------------------------------------

> 
> 2. What is it that is there? [Skipping the four elements, and 
> launching into...] "'Derived materiality' is of twenty-four kinds as 
> eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour, 
> femininity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; 
> bodily intimation, verbal intimation; space element; lightness of 
> matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of 
> matter, continunity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of 
> matter, and physical nutriment." [Vism. XIV, 36]
> 
--------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Well, this is Buddhaghosa, not the Buddha. But anyway, derived 
materiality is concept only - these "things" are mind-constructed, not 
directly observed.
---------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Hmmm... looks like speculation about a something beyond phenomena to 
> call 'material.' Now, Buddha often warns against various forms of 
> speculation, but then he turns around and speculates about this thing 
> called 'material'? The 'ear element', 'sound' and such are rupas, 
> distinct from the experience of hearing. The hearing is conditioned 
> on there being ear element and sound coming into contact. I 
> sympathize with Berkeley, but it is helpful to think about a 
> materiality, a something 'being molested', an aggregate distinct from 
> nama, distinct from the experience. 
> 
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I see that aggregate as being constituted of the various arammana that 
are objects of visual, auditory, tactile, and olfactory discernment 
(vi~n~nana) - that is, constituting the objective pole of the 
vi~n~nana-arammana acts of physical experience, plus the conceptually derived 
"physical objects". I can talk about trees, people, and mosquitoes 
meaningfully, all the time realizing that these are mind-constructed and need 
not exist "out there", mind-independently, composed of some "material 
substance". The phenomenalist interpretation is a possible one.
---------------------------------------------------

> 
> 3. How so? "Taking all these together under the characteristic 
> of 'being molested', he sees them as 'materiality'. When he has 
> discerned materiality thus, the immaterial states become plain to him 
> in accordance with the sense doors, that is to say, the eighty-one 
> kinds of mundane consciousness consisting of.... Taking all these 
> immaterial states together under the characteristic of 'bending', he 
> sees them as 'mentality'." [Vism. XVII, 7-8] 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       It's *all* experienential, one pole of which is the knowing, and the 
other the known.
-------------------------------------------------------

> 
> So, when materiality is seen as materiality and mentality as 
> mentality, then the 81 kinds of mundane consciousness become clearer 
> (sufficient). Furthermore, all the vipassana-nyana are conditioned on 
> a clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa 
> (necessary). All mundane insight seems thus to be founded on this 
> most fundamental distinction. Without that discernment, the vipassana-
> nyana cannot arise (apparently).
> 
-----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       The distinction is important, but it does not imply independent 
existence of material "things". The following point is, I think, a very 
telling one. Imagine what it would mean if the physical paramatta dhammas 
were independent, self-existent things that are "out there". Hardness, for 
example, would become a Platonic ideal!! That would be quite a move away from 
the Dhamma.
--------------------------------------------------------

> 
> The phenomenalist attempt to nama-ize rupa (i.e. as experience of 
> physical phenomena) may make it more difficult to discern the 
> distinct characteristics of nama and rupa.
> 
--------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I make no attempt to nama-ize rupa. Rupa is quite different from nama, 
but it "exists" interdependently with it. Reality (dhammata) is neither nama 
nor rupa. If we think it is, then we are only looking at only one part of the 
elephant of reality.
--------------------------------------------------
   I think that is precisely > 
> why Buddha did (apparently) make the speculation about 'material'. 
> His cautions about speculation were two-fold: 1. About speculating a 
> self (sheer delusion); and 2. About delighting in the intellectual 
> speculation about various things (clinging). The 'rupa' speculation 
> is severely limited and is designed to counter these two dangers of 
> speculation. For example, a phenomenalist metaphysic is difficult to 
> support and takes great effort because of our very strong 'instinct' 
> to posit a rupa to be experienced. But is the phenomenalist effort 
> worth it? I think the evidence weighs against against it. 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I think just the opposite. For me, that perspective opens up my 
understanding of the Dhamma.
-------------------------------------------------------

> 
> Upasaka Howard: I understand rupakhandha to be the aggregate of 
> physical experiences - sights, sounds, tastes, smells, 
> hardness/softness/textures etc and, derivatively, the concocted 
> conceptual experiences of bodies and other seemingly "external" 
> physical objects. Our physical experience is a subject - object, 
> vi~n~nana - arramana dualistic mode of experience, with rupakhandha 
> constituting the objective pole. This is my picture of the matter. I 
> do not insist on it. ;-)
> 
> --> Dan: What do you see as the distinction between, say, sound and 
> hearing? Or, for that matter, between sound, ear, and hearing?
> 
---------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Leaving the predictive theories of the physicists (which work very 
nicely) alone, I see an act of hearing as an experiential event, the 
subjective (N.B. 'subjective' doesn't have an atta sense here) pole of which 
is hearing consciousness, and the objective pole of which is sound. As far as 
what "ear" is, that is more complex (in fact, I think that, in general, the 
ayatana are diificult to understand). In one sense, 'ear' refers to physical 
ear, which is concept-only. In the more crucial sense, I think it may be the 
capacity/ability to experience sound which arises based on mutiple conditions 
usually formulated in conventional terms (such as the person has not had his 
physical ears damaged and there are no sound-proofing covers on his/her 
ears).
       BTW, with regard to Buddhism and phenomenalism, I strongly recommend 
the wonderful little book by Bhikkhu ~Nanananda entitled "The Magic of the 
Mind: An Exposition of the Kalakarama Sutta". It is available for only $7.80 
on Amazon.
--------------------------------------------------------------

    I do > 
> sympathize with Berkeley, but ol' Buddha seems to closer to the mark 
> he's trying to hit, which differs from the mark the phenomenalists 
> are trying to hit.
> 
> Dan
> 
================================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)                    
            
 
13783 From: Howard 
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:38pm
Subject: Re: [dsg] question for Howard

 
  Hi, Nina -

       As I mentioned in a post I just sent to Dan, I just returned from my 
trip latre last night, and there was no chance previously to reply to your 
post.

In a message dated 6/6/02 1:52:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <> 
writes:


> 
> Knock, knock, may I butt in shortly, Howard has not much time.
> Dan asked: what is rupakkhandha and I had a next question: does 
> rupakkhandha
> experience something? But I was concerned about Howard's time, did not want
> to annoy him, he is in a hurry. Howard, no need to answer me.
> 
-----------------------------------------------
Howard:
       No, rupakhandha do not experience anything - they are experienced.
-------------------------------------------------

> I go over some of Dan's points and will only use part of the quotes:
> 
> op 06-06-2002 13:12 schreef onco111 op Dan:
> 
> > Dan: 
> > I find the question of 'rupakkhanda' a good one to contemplate.
> N: Yes, we know in theory, but how good you brought this up, do we really,
> really understand? I can give the answer like a parrot, as Num would say.
> > 
> Dan:  This seems to speculate that there *is* something there, contrary to
> > the phenomenalist perspective which is either agnostic about
> > materiality or denies it as speculative.
> N: I start to understand better phenomenalistic thinking after studying 
> more
> of Howard's posts. 
> 
------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I'm pleased that I was clear enough to make that possible.
--------------------------------------------------------

> Dan: I 
> > sympathize with Berkeley, but it is helpful to think about a
> > materiality, a something 'being molested', an aggregate distinct from
> > nama, distinct from the experience.
> > 
> > 3. How so? "Taking all these together under the characteristic
> > of 'being molested', he sees them as 'materiality'. When he has
> > discerned materiality thus, the immaterial states become plain to him
> > in accordance with the sense doors, that is to say, the eighty-one
> > kinds of mundane consciousness consisting of.... Taking all these
> > immaterial states together under the characteristic of 'bending', he
> > sees them as 'mentality'." [Vism. XVII, 7-8]
> > 
> > So, when materiality is seen as materiality and mentality as
> > mentality, then the 81 kinds of mundane consciousness become clearer
> > (sufficient). Furthermore, all the vipassana-nyana are conditioned on
> > a clear understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa
> > (necessary). All mundane insight seems thus to be founded on this
> > most fundamental distinction. Without that discernment, the vipassana-
> > nyana cannot arise (apparently).
> > 
> > The phenomenalist attempt to nama-ize rupa (i.e. as experience of
> > physical phenomena) may make it more difficult to discern the
> > distinct characteristics of nama and rupa.
> 
> N: Yes, we should first clearly see in theory that rupa and nama are
> altogether different, otherwise we cannot even begin to develop mindfulness
> of nama and rupa as they appear one at a time, through one doorway at a
> time.
> 
-----------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       There is no disagreement on my part with regard to this.
-------------------------------------------------
   The first vipassana nyana is the clear distinction through direct> 
> experience of nama and rupa. That is why I feel really concerned about
> making clear that nama is the experience and that rupa does not know
> anything, does not feel, does not remember, is not attached, has no
> aversion. The eye does not know: visible object is impinging on me. Visible
> object does not know I am impinging on the eyesense, and I am seen.
> One of the 24 conditions is dissociation-condition, vippayutta paccaya. 
> Nama
> and rupa condition one another by way of dissociation, whether conascent or
> not. They can never be as closely associated as for example feeling that
> coarises with citta, two namas, that have the same base and experience the
> same object.
> So long as nama and rupa are not clearly distinguished, their arising and
> falling away, of one rupa at a time, and of one nama at a time, cannot be
> realized.  
> 
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       I agree completely. The phenomenalist interpretation is perfectly 
compatible with this.
-----------------------------------------------------


> I wish Howard and his family a very nice trip to the West coast, with
> sufficient free time for reflection on the Dhamma.
> 
-------------------------------------------------------
Howard:
       Thank you, Nina. It was a wonderful trip. (We went only as far as 
Chicago, though - that was the destination.)
-----------------------------------------------------

> Best wishes from Nina.
> 
> 
==========================
With metta,
Howard

/Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble 
in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a 
phantom, and a dream./            (From the Diamond Sutra)