17800 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychic Experiences Dear Swee Boon, --- "nidive " wrote: > Dear Everybody, > > I don't know whether this is off-topic or not. But since the Buddha > talked about abhinna powers, I would like to discuss about my > own 'psychic experiences' which I could still remember. ..... I think we need to clarify a little what the abhinna powers are so that there is no confusion or mistaking of 'psychic' or other special experiences any of us may be having at this time. In brief, these refer the 6 higher powers or knowledges which can only be attained through the perfection of jhanas. One of them can only be obtained through the realization of Arahatship. There was some discussion before with Wyn on these. The Visuddhimagga X1-X111 gives more details. We're talking about the powers after the attainment of rupa and arupa jhanas - quite impossible in our 'dusty' lives as I understand.(Others will disagree;-)) Many of us, including yourself, are interested in 'practice'. A good place and time to start is now: is there any clear knowledge of the distinction between moments that are kusala (wholesome) and akusala (unwholesome) and of how different objects of samatha, such as metta or death condition calm when there is understanding? Samatha can only begin to develop with clear understanding of the purpose and with knowledge of wholesome states, not by just concentrating and hoping. Thank you for sharing your interesting psychic experiences. I don't attempt to explain them. I don't think anyone would think you were the Devil;-) My mother was brought up in very large, very old, very remote vicarages, often without electricity and was very used to the ghosts which she took for being servants. It was quite common-place and in a very Christian environment;-).I've also had 'psychic' friends with experiences as you describe. I think the most important thing, as we've said before on DSG, is not to cling to such experiences at all. However strange, they are only namas and rupas rising and falling away. Back to practice and the only way to develop insight is by being aware of realities that appear now. Attaching to special episodes or concepts will never help. Concentration without panna is mostly wrong concentration and will take us in the wrong direction. ..... > I don't know if any of you had such experiences or not. I know > people seldom discuss such things because it is uncommon. ..... Another reason may be that it might not be useful. If we all discuss all the weird things that have ever happened to us (however memorable or disturbing), we'd be no closer to knowing the nature of dhammas as the Buddha taught. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, Swee Boon. Please let us know what you think about the practice. Can your study of Abhidhamma help this practice? Sarah p.s I assume NEO is yr family name and Swee Boon your first names. Pls clarify that this is right as I think there is a little confusion. ===== 17801 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 0:03am Subject: Re: Christine (Women on the Buddhist Path) Hi Simon, I appreciate the info. about the books and I'll keep an eye out for them. I do have Vicki Mackenzie's biography of Tenzin Palmo 'Cave in the Snow', and I have another one of articles written by Buddhist women called 'Being Bodies' ed. by Lenore Friedman and Susan Moon. The back cover says "The relationship between body and mind has always been a topic of speculation and spirited discussion. The authors of the pieces contained in this anthology address the problem from the unique dual perspective of being women and being students of Buddhism." Contributers include a number of well known American Teachers. The Ch. headings are "Body as Suffering" "Body as Nature" "Body as Gender" "Body as Vehicle" "Body as Self". Thanks for your post, because of it I went to look for this book and realised I hadn't finished reading it. :-) metta, Christine --- "dragonwriter2 " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Following are two books (contemporary:-) and their descriptions, > authored by women about the varied experiences on the path, that may > or may not be of interest. > > Women on the Buddhist Path by Martine Batchelor > This is a collection of stories and experiences of "Western" > and "Asian" women from a variety of Buddhist "traditions", ranging > from a hermit to a disk jockey, and including artists, social > workers, psychotherapists, nuns ans professors. What they have in > common is a meditation practice that has transformed their lives. > This book is an inspiration to "all" women who are seeking to > integrate spirituality into their daily lives. Pb 240 pp. > > Reflections on a Mountain Lake: A Western Nun Talks on Practical > Buddhism by Tenzin Palmo > "The essential thing is to learn how to develop a practice which you > can live with moment to moment in your everyday life." > > Tenzin Palmo, whose story is known to thousands of readers through > Vicki Mackenzie's biography, Cave in the Snow, draws on her years > (12ish) of solitary meditation in a Himalayan cave to bring this > down to earth approach to the spiritual path. She explains how to > develop a regular meditation practice and shows how meditation can > help us deal with painful emotions like anger, fear and jealousy. > She explores the traditions of great female practitoners and how > they are being "maintained" today. > > Metta, > Simon 17802 From: ajahn_paul Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:11am Subject: Re: May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Christine, i was just only joking,,,i've got my x'mas tree set up already in my house anyway! heheehe well,,, i dont know how to enlarge the pic, can u help? ^^ --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Paul, > > May I give my two cents about your question to RobM? > Living in a country that celebrates Christmas both in a religious and > a worldly way causes strong emotions to arise when I hear the hymns > or a Christian sermon on the radio. Christmas in a non-religious way > is so important here that people travel home from all round the world > to be with their family - "I'll be home for Christmas". Christmas no > longer means what it meant to me, in a religious sense, for most of > my life. But, each Christmas now I have to deal with mixed emotions - > almost like grief for a lost loved one - for the simple way it used > to be when I believed what I was brought up to believe. Being > Buddhist doesn't stop them. I often wonder if there is a separate > form of memory for emotions. At this time, I am particularly > bothered by a yearning for the simple culture-wide beliefs of my pre- > Dhamma life. The 'truths' of yesterday that I believed so > joyfully, that I taught to my children, are just dear 'myths' to me > today. But, I buy the Christmas presents, and join in family > gatherings and celebrations. In this country, where the Festival of > the birth of the Christ child is both a worldly Celebration and > Thanksgiving for Family, as well as a consumer extravaganza, it would > cause misunderstanding and hurt among my Christian family and friends > (whether nominal or not) if I was to Make a Point of Being Buddhist > and withdraw. > > metta, > Christine > p.s. That is you in photo 58 isn't it? :-) I can't seem to enlarge > it. Will you have to stay a mini-Paul forever? :-) > 17803 From: ajahn_paul Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:13am Subject: Re: May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Rob, i know,,, i would like to have a x'mas gift too,,,, where is my book?! ^_~ --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Ajahn Paul, > > I have two sons; eight and twelve. They go to Buddhist Sunday School > each week, but they sure love to get presents and decorate the > Christmas tree. My wife and I certainly don't treat Christmas as a > religious holiday, but we do use this occasion to explain a bit to > our kids about Christian beliefs. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 17804 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong speech in Jest Hi James, I smiled and laughed when I read your post (to Christine). I didn’t take a Prozac, but I’m calling you 'in the morning'(your time). Hope it was a general invitation and I don’t sound like a doomsayer either;-) ..... --- "James " wrote: > But this discussion reminds me again > of why I am a Buddhist. You know, I always thought of Buddhism as a > happy and joyful way of approaching life. A way of saying, "Yes, we > are all suffering…and it is all quite unnecessary. It is possible to > find true happiness in the here and now and the hereafter. And it if > from your own efforts that such will be done." .... I pretty much agree with these sentiments. I also agree to an extent with ones that David made to suggest we can ‘think’ too much. “Whatever will be, will be, the future is not ours to see” as the catchy song being played over and over in a nearby cafe belts out. If we find the path discouraging or fearful or have the idea we can think and think our way out of trouble, it’s not ‘right’. Furthermore, as I was writing to Ken H, if we have the idea we should be in another place, doing another job, sitting in a different position (like up a tree for 39 days as I read in the newspaper to save it, Ken), it’s also not ‘right’. We can see that with these ideas, the idea of practice is taking us away from the present moment and making life harder (read: piling up more suffering) rather than lighter. So I’d encourage anyone to be joyful and ‘in good cheer’ (as Azita likes to remind us), to go Xmas shopping or whatever brings happiness or one has inclinations to do. ..... > But since being a member of this group I have confronted such > depressing positions as Nibbana as complete nothingness and void, the > Buddha was practically a Vulcan and had no trace of humanity > whatsoever, that inanimate objects (like rocks) have the intrinsic > characteristic of suffering along with being hard and cold, and that > joking, smiling, laughing, and happiness are all against Buddhism. I > am not sure if this is a Buddhist group or a Silvia Plath fan club > . ..... I’m glad you added the or I might have been worried about you . Ok, I’m not taking your comments seriously. I would like to suggest, however, that there’s a very big difference between a) acknowledging, as we read in all the texts, that the arahants and Buddha were completely without any lobha (and thereby any inclination to laugh or joke) and b) suggesting as a result we shouldn’t laugh and joke. We’re not arahants. We’re just starting out on the Path. If we try to act as we imagine arahants would act, it is unnnatural and again shows wrong understanding of the practice. The practice should be to live as we always have (no obvious changes as Chris pointed out - in my case I've always disliked any kind of shopping and still do), but developing more understanding, more wholesome qualities of all kinds - slowly and without expectation of results. So there’s no need to join the suicidal fan club, James, just because the Buddha didn’t tell jokes or all conditioned phenomena are inherently unsatisfactory. Understanding phenomena a little more as they are is the most inspiring and uplifting way to live. This is what brings little tastes of freedom and ‘lightness’ of experience. No one or thing can ever touch or affect this understanding. It isn’t determined by the outer appearance at all. The teachings are for monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen alike. ..... >I keep writing to kids to be happy, be optimistic, and know > that everything is for a reason and that reason is good….but from the > thinking of the vocal majority of this group I might as well tell > them all to cut their wrists on the spot. There is nothing worth > living for and there is nothing to attain. All is emptiness and > emptiness is all…And `Have a Good, Mettiful Day' ;-) ..... Some days you remind me of our old friend Erik, but at least you add the ;-) Please continue to inspire and help the kids (and a few adults with kids’ hearts;-)) with the beautifully written posts. I particularly appreciated the ones you just wrote on kamma and rebirth with the great revolving door analogy. (Kom and Rob K also wrote really helpful ones on kamma - jsut the right ‘pitch’) (New members pls note: some of these children are as young as 8 yrs old, so they’re allowed a few toys in their posts;-)) ..... > Rubbish and Nonsense!! So much has been lost and those who think > they know don't really know anything. They only hear the empty > echoes in their lonely heads as they lament to themselves. .... Oh, that was a rude awakening. Lamenting to myself.....;-(( ..... >I just > wanted to get this off my chest. I am sure the doomsayers will have > much to say in response. Fine. ..... I think they’ve been noticeable by their absence so far... not everyone on DSG is such a masochist;-) ..... >But please, I want to urge everyone, > don't think that all is forsaken! There is hope and there is > happiness…all is not dukkha. Dukkha is a dream, Happiness is > reality. Just take a Prozac and call me in the morning. .... Ok, I called. I appreciate the encouragement. I disagree that ‘all is not dukkha’. Does that mean there can’t be happy feelings or we should take a Prozac as a solution? I don’t think so. Does it mean we should all be full of wholesome qualities. No, as you suggested at the end of a quote on mana, the development and understanding has to be ‘trained’. James, you also asked in another post how some of us had come to our conclusions about arahants having eradicated lobha and so on. I think out of confidence in the Teachings, we can look to the suttas at least and to the entire Tipitaka for some of us. We don’t ‘know’ these details, but surely they are more reliable than our own specultions? You suggest that in some suttas it says arahants (inc. the Buddha) still have traces of defilements including lobha. I think it is quite erroneous but I’ll look at the suttas if you give me the references. You say that otherwise they would disappear in a cloud of smoke . Well, I’m smiling but quite puzzled as to why you would think this at all. Finally, James, (OK, a little ambush), you found it disconcerting (17100) that phenomena are conditioned, that there is no self to suppress anger and so on. I agree there has to be the proper groundwork and as I just said, it’s no use trying to imitate an arahant or the Buddha. However, ‘standing fast in the flow’, appreciating the value of good deeds and cultivating ‘proper mental states’ can only be done at this moment by sati, panna and their associates. Not by a self, not by 'Sarah' or 'James'. Talking now, considering what is wise and unwise, is an important condition for such practice and development to take place. Many thanks again for your uplifting and inspiring posts. Just let us know anytime we sound too depressing to you;-) Sarah ====== 17806 From: chase8383 Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:47am Subject: The Gift of Suffering Morning ( here anyway) All There is a story about a women who came to the Buddha carrying her dead child. She asked the Buddha to bring her child back to life. The Buddha told her that he would talk of that later, but first he wanted her to go into the village below them. Once in the village, she was to go from house to house and get a mustard seed from each house that had not experienced death. She did as the Buddha asked. And as she went from house to house, she collected no mustard seeds. Not one house in the village had not experienced death. All had know the suffering of loss. All had tasted the suffering of impermanence. When she returned to the Buddha, she opened her empty hand. She said all in the village had known death personally. The Buddha said, you see, this is what we share. This suffering is what brings us together. No suffering, no joy. No Mara, no Buddha. No samsara, no nirvana. David 17807 From: nidive Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychic Experiences Hello Sarah, Thank you for responding to my post. NEO is my surname (family name), and Swee Boon is my name. Thank you for clarifying about abhinna powers. I am not claiming that I have abhinna powers. But some strange experiences that I have are very mysterious and unexplainable. I thought Buddhism would be more accommodating of such experiences, in the manner that such experiences are not 'uncommon'. Thank you for sharing that you have family members and friends who also have psychic experiences. It's kind of comforting. I am not attached to such experiences. But I don't discount them either. Maybe I could have been a brahma in my previous life? :) Therefore I have such accumulations? Maybe I could have practised concentration in my previous life? I don't know. But I remembered a dream I had while I was a child: I dreamt that I was a Buddhist monk residing in a majestic (where everything was virtually golden) monastery. I don't think I am going on the wrong path. But I still experience such psychic experiences in my life. It can be as mundane as having fore-knowledge (or intuition) of what might happen later in the day. NEO Swee Boon 17808 From: chase8383 Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:39am Subject: Letting our notions fall away (Re: If volition is conditioned)/ David Hello Christine "You're 'a yank' I assume, David - from the Eastcoast, Westcoast or the Heartland?" Eastcoast. New Englander born and breed. I lived in Colorado and Texas for a while, but otherwise pure Eastcoaster. I have never been to Australia. I want to go though. Australia and New Zealand are the two places I most indentify with outside of the states. Be spacious, David 17809 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:11am Subject: Dukkha as Flaw (A Pep Talk! ;-) Hi, all - All conditions/formations are flawed. They are imperfect in that they are, none of them, of the nature to satisfy. Some cause outright physical and mental pain to which we react with varying degrees of aversion, and, in some cases, we commit the most terrible and disturbing actions to flee from them. Others are neutral in feeling, from which arises boredom, loss of attention, and confusion. Still others range from mildly to enormously pleasant. Of these, the moderately to enormously pleasant are met with craving that is often compulsive, disturbing, and leads to a slavish attachment that is thwarted by impermanence and lack of full control on our part, and this often leads to the desperate commitment of dreadful acts. And even the mildly pleasant conditions dissapoint in not lasting. Not a pretty picture, is it? But where lies the flaw? Is it that all conditions have evil essence? Certainly not. They are just what they are, some pleasant, some neutral, some unpleasant, as they strike us, depending on changing circumstances. The flaw is in us. The dukkha is in us, in our defiled, confused, reactive nature, a nature, which like all conditions, is, happily, subject to change. Not only is there dukkha - there is also its cause, and, because it is caused and not intrinsic, there is an escape from it, and that escape is the Buddha's path. To escape the prison of dukkha, we must first be able to see fully and clearly the extent of our imprisonment. We need to see that even when the incarceration is mild, it is still a prison cell we occupy. The irony is that the cell door is wide open, but we are too drugged to simply walk out. Another irony is that the very recognition of our dukkhic state, necessary for our release, may throw us into a state of despair. We may then, reactively grasp onto the false and extreme notion that nothing but total annihilation of experience of all sorts is the only remedy, because the realm of conditions is inherently flawed. But this is the opposite error to thinking that lasting happiness is to be found in condtions themselves. Lasting happiness, including the most joyful appreciation of life in all its aspects, comes not from pushing away of conditions, not from running from conditions and annihilating all of them, but from a very specialized annihilation - the annihilation of the three poisons: our spiritual blindness of defiled cognition, our craving, and our aversion. Their cessation marks the realization of nibbana, the end, the absolute end, of dukkha - the complete and pemanent removal of all flaws. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17810 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:59am Subject: Contemplating Aging ([dsg] Re: Take Care of Yourself) Hi Christine, How did you get that impression? Metta, Victor > Victor, from your current remarks, (and previous posts on this > subject):""There is nothing wrong with being aware of yourself. Note > that in the last paragraph of the quote, the Buddha's teaching on > each and > every aggregate being not self is not meant to deny self-awareness." > I still get the impression that you are saying there is 'something' > standing behind and separate from the khandas. Am I misunderstanding > you? > > metta, > Christine 17811 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:02am Subject: Re: Dukkha as Flaw (A Pep Talk! ;-) Hi Howard, I think you understand the characteristic of dukkha rather well. Metta, Victor --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > All conditions/formations are flawed. They are imperfect in that they > are, none of them, of the nature to satisfy. Some cause outright physical and > mental pain to which we react with varying degrees of aversion, and, in some > cases, we commit the most terrible and disturbing actions to flee from them. > Others are neutral in feeling, from which arises boredom, loss of attention, > and confusion. Still others range from mildly to enormously pleasant. Of > these, the moderately to enormously pleasant are met with craving that is > often compulsive, disturbing, and leads to a slavish attachment that is > thwarted by impermanence and lack of full control on our part, and this often > leads to the desperate commitment of dreadful acts. And even the mildly > pleasant conditions dissapoint in not lasting. Not a pretty picture, is it? > But where lies the flaw? Is it that all conditions have evil essence? > Certainly not. They are just what they are, some pleasant, some neutral, some > unpleasant, as they strike us, depending on changing circumstances. The flaw > is in us. The dukkha is in us, in our defiled, confused, reactive nature, a > nature, which like all conditions, is, happily, subject to change. Not only > is there dukkha - there is also its cause, and, because it is caused and not > intrinsic, there is an escape from it, and that escape is the Buddha's path. > To escape the prison of dukkha, we must first be able to see fully and > clearly the extent of our imprisonment. We need to see that even when the > incarceration is mild, it is still a prison cell we occupy. The irony is that > the cell door is wide open, but we are too drugged to simply walk out. > Another irony is that the very recognition of our dukkhic state, > necessary for our release, may throw us into a state of despair. We may then, > reactively grasp onto the false and extreme notion that nothing but total > annihilation of experience of all sorts is the only remedy, because the realm > of conditions is inherently flawed. But this is the opposite error to > thinking that lasting happiness is to be found in condtions themselves. > Lasting happiness, including the most joyful appreciation of life in all its > aspects, comes not from pushing away of conditions, not from running from > conditions and annihilating all of them, but from a very specialized > annihilation - the annihilation of the three poisons: our spiritual blindness > of defiled cognition, our craving, and our aversion. Their cessation marks > the realization of nibbana, the end, the absolute end, of dukkha - the > complete and pemanent removal of all flaws. > > With metta, > Howard 17812 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Flaw (A Pep Talk! ;-) Hi, Victor - In a message dated 12/16/02 12:04:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think you understand the characteristic of dukkha rather well. > > Metta, > Victor > > ======================= Thanks, Victor. (Hey, so does that make me "one for three"? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17813 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 0:27pm Subject: Re: May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Ajahn Paul, The book was prepared in Penang. I have sent a letter to Penang asking for a copy to be sent to me. No reply yet. I will be following up with a phone call next week. Metta, Rob M :-) --- "ajahn_paul " wrote: > Hi Rob, > > i know,,, i would like to have a x'mas gift too,,,, where is my > book?! ^_~ > > --- "robmoult " > wrote: > > Hi Ajahn Paul, > > > > I have two sons; eight and twelve. They go to Buddhist Sunday > School > > each week, but they sure love to get presents and decorate the > > Christmas tree. My wife and I certainly don't treat Christmas as a > > religious holiday, but we do use this occasion to explain a bit to > > our kids about Christian beliefs. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 17814 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:17pm Subject: Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Robert (and All); Sorry for the delay in responding to this post. I've got a lot to say about this. --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > How do you reconcile "that > consciousness it is a necessary condition for rupa to arise " with the > Abhidhammamatthasangaha: > http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_6.htm > " Material phenomena arise in four ways, viz: 1. Kamma, 2. Mind, 3. > Seasonal Conditions, and 4. Food." > Seasonal conditions is utu. I don't see any conflict. Kamma / citta / utu / oja are what create rupa and consciousness is a necessary condition for rupa to arise. I am going to make an observation here which I think is quite interesting. I will use the citta-process (formerly called the "thought process" until Sarah put me right :-) ) to make a point and then return to the topic of rupa. In my limited reading of the Suttas, the closest the Buddha came to describing the citta-process was in the Madhupindika Sutta (The Ball of Honey) MN18: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn018.html "Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye." The citta-process (17 cittas in a row) was never laid down by the Buddha in the Suttas. The citta-process is not even in the seven volumes of the Abhidhamma. In other words, the citta-process is not part of the Tipitaka. According to Nyanatiloka (Buddhist Dictionary - Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines - Appendix), "citta-vithi, as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes of consciousness, such as avajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santirana, votthapana, javana, tadarammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less known." I have incredible admiration for Acariya Anuruddha. Not only was he able to condense seven thick volumes of the Abhidhamma into fifty pages, but he also added a significant new material (citta-process) not found in the original. I believe that "paramattha dhamma", another critical term in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, is also not found in the Suttas nor in the original seven volumes of the Abhidhamma. Citta-vithi, paramattha may have appeared in commentarial literature prior to Anuruddha, but my point is that they are not in the Tipitaka. Why is this so? In the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, the Buddha clearly defined the scope of His teachings: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed." The Buddha made it clear; he taught about the four Noble Truths... that which was conducive to the holy life and led one to Nibbana. In other recent posts, I have called this "Ethics" (perhaps not the best name). So why did the Buddha deliver the Madhupindika Sutta? To show how papanca (conceptual proliferation) arises to cloud the mind. In his commentary to the Sutta above, Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains how papanca arises from a lack of understanding anatta. The Buddha did not deliver the Madhupindika Sutta to provide a "scientific" roadmap of the citta process. The objective in delivering the Madhupindika Sutta was clearly in line with the Buddha's stated objectives as laid out in the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta. My suspicion is that, though the Tipitaka provides a complete ethical system, later thinkers did not find it "scientific" enough and felt the need to add a layer of "pseudo-science" (not unlike papanca) on top of the ethical base found in the Tipitaka. Citta- vithi, paramattha and a host of other ideas were later additions which were not taught by the Buddha because they are not essential to the Four Noble Truths, conducive to the holy life and leading one to Nibbana. One might also say that these mental proliferations act as a distraction, clouding the mind so that it is more difficult to focus on the ethical aspects of the Teaching. Our discussion on rupas falls into this category. The origin of rupas (kamma / citta / utu / oja) and the classification according to characteristic / function / manifestation / proximate cause does not appear in the Tipitaka. I believe that it first arises in Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga. In other words, it is part of the pseudo-scientific, pananca-like, commentarial literature. Please don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we stop studying the commentarial literature. I suspect that Acariya Anuruddha and Buddhaghosa may have been Arahants and they definitely have much to teach us. I am suggesting that we see the commentarial literature for what it is; use it and learn from it but that we should remember the Buddha's words "Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind" as our guideline as to our focus. Our focus in studying the citta-process should not be so much in the memorizing of the names of the cittas, the cetasikas which appear with each citta, etc. but focusing more on the fact that there is seeing but there is no seer (the citta process is empty). In my Abhidhamma class, I will continue to teach the citta vithi and the list of cetasikas in each citta; but I will constantly remind the students of why we are studying this stuff. This is part of my effort to minimize pananca. I appreciate feedback / comments from all DSG members. Metta, Rob M :-) 17815 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 2:42pm Subject: Re: Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Rob M, I think it is a well articulated post. Indeed, a lot of discussion on the citta process struck me as pseudo-scientific. Metta, Victor --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Robert (and All); > > Sorry for the delay in responding to this post. I've got a lot to > say about this. > > --- "rjkjp1 " > wrote: > > How do you reconcile "that > > consciousness it is a necessary condition for rupa to arise " with > the > > Abhidhammamatthasangaha: > > http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_6.htm > > " Material phenomena arise in four ways, viz: 1. Kamma, 2. Mind, > 3. > > Seasonal Conditions, and 4. Food." > > Seasonal conditions is utu. > > I don't see any conflict. Kamma / citta / utu / oja are what create > rupa and consciousness is a necessary condition for rupa to arise. > > I am going to make an observation here which I think is quite > interesting. I will use the citta-process (formerly called > the "thought process" until Sarah put me right :-) ) to make a point > and then return to the topic of rupa. > > In my limited reading of the Suttas, the closest the Buddha came to > describing the citta-process was in the Madhupindika Sutta (The Ball > of Honey) MN18: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn018.html > > "Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of > the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there > is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What > one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one > complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & > categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, > present, & future forms cognizable via the eye." > > The citta-process (17 cittas in a row) was never laid down by the > Buddha in the Suttas. The citta-process is not even in the seven > volumes of the Abhidhamma. In other words, the citta-process is not > part of the Tipitaka. According to Nyanatiloka (Buddhist Dictionary - > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines - Appendix), "citta-vithi, > as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes > of consciousness, such as avajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santirana, > votthapana, javana, tadarammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms > is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the > Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice > briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less > known." > > I have incredible admiration for Acariya Anuruddha. Not only was he > able to condense seven thick volumes of the Abhidhamma into fifty > pages, but he also added a significant new material (citta-process) > not found in the original. I believe that "paramattha dhamma", > another critical term in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, is also not > found in the Suttas nor in the original seven volumes of the > Abhidhamma. Citta-vithi, paramattha may have appeared in > commentarial literature prior to Anuruddha, but my point is that > they are not in the Tipitaka. > > Why is this so? > > In the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, the Buddha clearly defined the scope > of His teachings: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html > > "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by > me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This > is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path > of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. > And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with > the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to > disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, > self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. So, > Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, > and what is disclosed by me as disclosed." > > The Buddha made it clear; he taught about the four Noble Truths... > that which was conducive to the holy life and led one to Nibbana. In > other recent posts, I have called this "Ethics" (perhaps not the > best name). So why did the Buddha deliver the Madhupindika Sutta? To > show how papanca (conceptual proliferation) arises to cloud the > mind. In his commentary to the Sutta above, Thanissaro Bhikkhu > explains how papanca arises from a lack of understanding anatta. > > The Buddha did not deliver the Madhupindika Sutta to provide > a "scientific" roadmap of the citta process. The objective in > delivering the Madhupindika Sutta was clearly in line with the > Buddha's stated objectives as laid out in the Cula-Malunkyovada > Sutta. > > My suspicion is that, though the Tipitaka provides a complete > ethical system, later thinkers did not find it "scientific" enough > and felt the need to add a layer of "pseudo-science" (not unlike > papanca) on top of the ethical base found in the Tipitaka. Citta- > vithi, paramattha and a host of other ideas were later additions > which were not taught by the Buddha because they are not essential > to the Four Noble Truths, conducive to the holy life and leading one > to Nibbana. One might also say that these mental proliferations act > as a distraction, clouding the mind so that it is more difficult to > focus on the ethical aspects of the Teaching. > > Our discussion on rupas falls into this category. The origin of > rupas (kamma / citta / utu / oja) and the classification according > to characteristic / function / manifestation / proximate cause does > not appear in the Tipitaka. I believe that it first arises in > Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga. In other words, it is part of the > pseudo-scientific, pananca-like, commentarial literature. > > Please don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we stop studying > the commentarial literature. I suspect that Acariya Anuruddha and > Buddhaghosa may have been Arahants and they definitely have much to > teach us. I am suggesting that we see the commentarial literature > for what it is; use it and learn from it but that we should remember > the Buddha's words "Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind" as our > guideline as to our focus. > > Our focus in studying the citta-process should not be so much in the > memorizing of the names of the cittas, the cetasikas which appear > with each citta, etc. but focusing more on the fact that there is > seeing but there is no seer (the citta process is empty). In my > Abhidhamma class, I will continue to teach the citta vithi and the > list of cetasikas in each citta; but I will constantly remind the > students of why we are studying this stuff. This is part of my > effort to minimize pananca. > > I appreciate feedback / comments from all DSG members. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 17816 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi, Rob - You ask for comments at the end of this post. I have one: I have learned much from it, and I am saving it! With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/16/02 5:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Robert (and All); > > Sorry for the delay in responding to this post. I've got a lot to > say about this. > > --- "rjkjp1 " > wrote: > >How do you reconcile "that > >consciousness it is a necessary condition for rupa to arise " with > the > >Abhidhammamatthasangaha: > >http://www.palikanon.com/abhidham/sangaha/chapter_6.htm > >" Material phenomena arise in four ways, viz: 1. Kamma, 2. Mind, > 3. > >Seasonal Conditions, and 4. Food." > >Seasonal conditions is utu. > > I don't see any conflict. Kamma / citta / utu / oja are what create > rupa and consciousness is a necessary condition for rupa to arise. > > I am going to make an observation here which I think is quite > interesting. I will use the citta-process (formerly called > the "thought process" until Sarah put me right :-) ) to make a point > and then return to the topic of rupa. > > In my limited reading of the Suttas, the closest the Buddha came to > describing the citta-process was in the Madhupindika Sutta (The Ball > of Honey) MN18: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn018.html > > "Dependent on eye &forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of > the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there > is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What > one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one > complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & > categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, > present, &future forms cognizable via the eye." > > The citta-process (17 cittas in a row) was never laid down by the > Buddha in the Suttas. The citta-process is not even in the seven > volumes of the Abhidhamma. In other words, the citta-process is not > part of the Tipitaka. According to Nyanatiloka (Buddhist Dictionary - > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines - Appendix), "citta-vithi, > as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes > of consciousness, such as avajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santirana, > votthapana, javana, tadarammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms > is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the > Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice > briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less > known." > > I have incredible admiration for Acariya Anuruddha. Not only was he > able to condense seven thick volumes of the Abhidhamma into fifty > pages, but he also added a significant new material (citta-process) > not found in the original. I believe that "paramattha dhamma", > another critical term in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, is also not > found in the Suttas nor in the original seven volumes of the > Abhidhamma. Citta-vithi, paramattha may have appeared in > commentarial literature prior to Anuruddha, but my point is that > they are not in the Tipitaka. > > Why is this so? > > In the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta, the Buddha clearly defined the scope > of His teachings: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html > > "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by > me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This > is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path > of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. > And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with > the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to > disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, > self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. So, > Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, > and what is disclosed by me as disclosed." > > The Buddha made it clear; he taught about the four Noble Truths... > that which was conducive to the holy life and led one to Nibbana. In > other recent posts, I have called this "Ethics" (perhaps not the > best name). So why did the Buddha deliver the Madhupindika Sutta? To > show how papanca (conceptual proliferation) arises to cloud the > mind. In his commentary to the Sutta above, Thanissaro Bhikkhu > explains how papanca arises from a lack of understanding anatta. > > The Buddha did not deliver the Madhupindika Sutta to provide > a "scientific" roadmap of the citta process. The objective in > delivering the Madhupindika Sutta was clearly in line with the > Buddha's stated objectives as laid out in the Cula-Malunkyovada > Sutta. > > My suspicion is that, though the Tipitaka provides a complete > ethical system, later thinkers did not find it "scientific" enough > and felt the need to add a layer of "pseudo-science" (not unlike > papanca) on top of the ethical base found in the Tipitaka. Citta- > vithi, paramattha and a host of other ideas were later additions > which were not taught by the Buddha because they are not essential > to the Four Noble Truths, conducive to the holy life and leading one > to Nibbana. One might also say that these mental proliferations act > as a distraction, clouding the mind so that it is more difficult to > focus on the ethical aspects of the Teaching. > > Our discussion on rupas falls into this category. The origin of > rupas (kamma / citta / utu / oja) and the classification according > to characteristic / function / manifestation / proximate cause does > not appear in the Tipitaka. I believe that it first arises in > Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga. In other words, it is part of the > pseudo-scientific, pananca-like, commentarial literature. > > Please don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we stop studying > the commentarial literature. I suspect that Acariya Anuruddha and > Buddhaghosa may have been Arahants and they definitely have much to > teach us. I am suggesting that we see the commentarial literature > for what it is; use it and learn from it but that we should remember > the Buddha's words "Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind" as our > guideline as to our focus. > > Our focus in studying the citta-process should not be so much in the > memorizing of the names of the cittas, the cetasikas which appear > with each citta, etc. but focusing more on the fact that there is > seeing but there is no seer (the citta process is empty). In my > Abhidhamma class, I will continue to teach the citta vithi and the > list of cetasikas in each citta; but I will constantly remind the > students of why we are studying this stuff. This is part of my > effort to minimize pananca. > > I appreciate feedback / comments from all DSG members. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17817 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > I hope you don't let this > conversation preempt the one you started with Howard. Basically I think > I am on a different track from the one you guys are taking. I agree that the Rob-Larry discussion, the Rob-Howard discussion and the Howard-Larry discussion are quite distinct. > > I wrote, "In my opinion kamma must reach from javana, through vipaka and > subsequent remembering of accumulations to the next javana and must > necessarily include the object of vipaka." > > What I am proposing is a full circle from javana to javana. Javana > intentionality results in a value free result but in order for good > intentions to reap good results the vipaka (value free result) must be > experienced as good. In order for that to happen, accumulations must > arise, cued by the vipaka (if not remembered). These accumulations must > then elicit a reaction (in this case favorable) to the vipaka. I am > calling this reaction another javana series. So there is a causal javana > and a resultant javana all part of the same kammic process. Do you still > think this is correct? I'm not sure. I just looked down and saw a pencil on the writing desk. Seeing a pencil arose because of conditions and vipaka. The accumulations which arose conditioned by this vipaka were moha-mula (I did not see things as they really are, "visible object", so it cannot have been kusala. I felt no attachment nor any aversion, so it was moha-mula). What kind of past kamma arose into a vipaka to allow me to see the pencil (i.e. kusala / akusla)? Impossible for anybody but a Buddha to know. "Good intentions to reaping good results" is conventional language; in Abhidhamma terms, results are never "good" or "bad". In a previous life, I studied the Dhamma (good intentions, kusala javana cittas creating "seeds" ready to develop into vipaka when conditions are right; again I emphasize that the vipaka would be called "kusala vipaka" simply because it arose from a kusala javana citta, not because of any intrinsic "goodness" in the vipaka). So in this life, among the gazillion seeds awaiting an opportunity to develop, are those "seeds" created by my past life studying of the Dhamma. Those past life kusala javana cittas did two things; created "seeds" (as discussed in the past paragraph) and they also supported an accumulation / tendency / habit of appreciating the Dhamma. This accumulation could have been developing over countless numbers of lifetimes. As a young teenager, I started developing my "own" philosophy. I spent a few years trying to discover what *I* thought. One evening, my girlfriend's father (a Christian minister) asked me about my personal philosophy. I expained in detail what I had spent years thinking about. After listening patiently for two hours, the father said, "What you have explained is Buddhism; different terminology, but essentially Buddhism." I reacted with shock, "I don't believe it! I have never studied anything about Buddhism. I find it hard to believe that independently, I could come up with one of the world's major religions." I went to the library, picked up a book on Buddhism and was shocked with what I read. Exact parallels to my "personal" philosophy. Now I understand what happened. I have a "deep accumulation" to the Dhamma, undoubtedly built up over one or more past lives. With such deep accumulation, I naturally saw situations of my young life in a way that mirrored the Dhamma. It is true that everything that happens to us is the ripening of a seed from a past action into a current vipaka. However, do not underestimate the incredible importance of accumulations or the critical role played by conditions. These three things together steer our lives. I am concerned that your javana -> vipaka -> javana circle oversimplifies the importance of accumulations and the role of conditions. > > I came up with this scenario as a way of explaining ethical behavior in > terms of citta process. Assuming you don't agree with it, how do you > explain ethical behavior (good intentions reap good results) in terms of > javana and vipaka? > How about: 1. Good intentions -> "seed for future vipaka" (not inherently good or bad) 2. Good intentions -> good accumulations 3. Conditions + "seed for future vipaka" -> current situation 4. Current situation + good accumulations -> good intentions 1 and 2 are past, 3 is present and 4 is future. (hey! this might be able to be explained in terms of paticca-samuppada! Let me think about this :-) ) > The business about vipaka including the object of the vipaka citta is, > for me, a doorway to the universe of physical objects outside the body. > A sense organ is a door and something external passes through that door > and becomes internal. A chunk of hardness doesn't interrupt the bhavanga > stream and sit there while 17 cittas react to it. Rather, some thing > that is hard touches the sensitive matter at the sense door. That > sensitive matter converts that input into something cittas can interact > with. This whatever-it-is is what interrupts the bhavanga and what 17 > cittas react to. This is obviously something I made up as a way of > explaining what is going on at the sense doors. How do you see it? I think that we are on the same page here. 1. Rupa arises - this occurs during the past bhavanga citta 2. The presence of rupa establishes a sympatheic vibration in the stream of bhavanga - this occurs during the vibrating bhavanga citta 3. It takes the duration of one more citta to cut off the flow of bhavanga citta - this is the arresting citta 4. The five sense door adverting citta redirects the flow to the appropriate sense door; the object of this citta is the rupa, even though the rupa has not been experienced yet. 5. The sense door consciousness citta contacts the rupa. This is the only citta in the citta-process where the rupa is contacted. All other cittas in the citta-process have heart-base; this is the only citta in the citta-process with some other rupa as a base. 6. The receiving / investigating / determining / javana / registration cittas all perform their function with the object (not the rupa itself, because the rupa was only contacted at the sense door consciousness citta). This is what you called "the something that the cittas can interact with" in your message. Larry, I hope that you feel that we are progressing. Others, please let me know if I have misrepresented somethin. Metta, Rob M :-) 17818 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Howard, Let me summarize: 1. You and I have very similar views on rupa 2. You see some form of interaction / interdependency in citta and cetasikas of one "being" and another. I do not see any form of interaction / interdependency. 3. Neither you nor I are qualified to discuss Nibbana. I'm okay with this if you are. Metta, Rob M :-) 17819 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi, Rob - In a message dated 12/16/02 8:16:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Let me summarize: > 1. You and I have very similar views on rupa > 2. You see some form of interaction / interdependency in citta and > cetasikas of one "being" and another. I do not see any form of > interaction / interdependency. > 3. Neither you nor I are qualified to discuss Nibbana. > > I'm okay with this if you are. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ======================== Sounds cool! ;-) [Just one question though: Are we interacting now? If yes, then how is that happening? Must there not be an overlap between our "worlds of experience"?] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17820 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi again, Rob - In a message dated 12/16/02 8:28:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Just one question though: Are we interacting now? If > yes, then how is that happening? Must there not be an overlap between our > "worlds of experience"? ================================ Just to clarify: As we interact, (and, of course, we do), how does "your" kamma condition arising of rupa in "my" world of experience? Either there is a self-existent outside world that we are both parts of (this being the normal, everyday, basically objectivist and materialist understanding of most people), or, somehow, your kamma impacts my mindstream, and mine impacts yours. What do you say? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17821 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Just one question though: Are we interacting now? If > yes, then how is that happening? Must there not be an overlap between our > "worlds of experience"? Citta in your mind creates a rupa (body intimation / vocal intimation). This intimation rupa becomes a condition which directly or indirectly allows one of my vipaka seed to mature into a vipaka (my current situation). From there, my accumulations take over to work with the condition and the vipaka to cause my response to arise. In my opinion, the interaction between "your citta and cetasika" and "my citta and cetasika" is indirect; it happens because "you create conditions" (at least from my perspective). Metta, Rob M :-) 17822 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi again Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Just to clarify: As we interact, (and, of course, we do), how does > "your" kamma condition arising of rupa in "my" world of experience? Either > there is a self-existent outside world that we are both parts of (this being > the normal, everyday, basically objectivist and materialist understanding of > most people), or, somehow, your kamma impacts my mindstream, and mine impacts > yours. What do you say? Yes, my citta (not kamma) causes body intimation / vocal intimation to arise which is then a condition for you (and visa-versa). From an "ethical" (internal) perspective, rupa exists (because it impinged on my senses). From an "ethical" (internal) perspective, how it got there is not on my radar screen. Only when I take a "scientific" perspective do I get tangled up in the outside world. It is only in the scientific perspective that the origin of that rupa is relevant. Metta, Rob M :-) 17823 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi, Rob - In a message dated 12/16/02 9:14:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Just one question though: Are we interacting now? If > >yes, then how is that happening? Must there not be an overlap > between our > >"worlds of experience"? > > Citta in your mind creates a rupa (body intimation / vocal > intimation). > > This intimation rupa becomes a condition which directly or > indirectly allows one of my vipaka seed to mature into a vipaka (my > current situation). From there, my accumulations take over to work > with the condition and the vipaka to cause my response to arise. > > In my opinion, the interaction between "your citta and cetasika" > and "my citta and cetasika" is indirect; it happens because "you > create conditions" (at least from my perspective). > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================ Okay. We're getting much closer in understanding, and I can see that our positions may be quite close. One question: Where is the point-of-contact? How does the rupa that is my kamma vipaka condition the ripening of a kammic seed of yours? Perhaps there is no contact point. P erhaps there is stream to stream conditioning, just as there is conditioning-at-a-distance within a single stream. That's fine. In any case, there is stream-to-stream interaction. That's about all that I claim. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17824 From: James Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:28pm Subject: Mara No More Hello All, Well, I got to the bottom of the `Mara Visitations' I was having. I went to see an expert meditation monk here in Phoenix, a personal friend of Thich Nhat Hahn (and he is traveling this month to France to see him at Plum Village for the yearly retreat), and I told him of my recent experiences. He and I meet frequently to discuss points of Buddhism but I don't consider his temple mine since he is Mahayana (http://aztec.asu.edu/worship/buddhist/sked.htm). He knew immediately the cause (I am very lucky to have access to such great teachers). He told me that they were meditation visions; which is seeing and hearing things during meditation that seem very real and can become a hindrance to progress. I told him that I wasn't meditating at the times I had the experiences, I was just thinking about anatta. He told me that I must have the kind of mind that goes into a deep meditative state just from thinking about dharma concepts (as I already knew about myself). I knew about meditation visions but had not expected them to occur during daily activities. Now that I know the cause, I don't suspect that they will bother me for much longer. We also had a very interesting, intense discussion for about three hours about Abhidhamma, anatta, consciousness, rupas, and emptiness and how these concepts compare and contrast between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism. I could detail some of the gist of the conversation but that could be interpreted as off-topic for this list. Anyway, Mara of the sensual realm hasn't really visited me. It seems the Mara of my clinging ego wants me to stop with this whole `anatta business'. Metta, James 17825 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:35pm Subject: Re: Mara No More Hi James, I am sincerely happy for you. I have heard that meditation visions can be dangerous. Metta, Rob M :-) 17826 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Okay. We're getting much closer in understanding, and I can see that > our positions may be quite close. One question: Where is the > point-of-contact? How does the rupa that is my kamma vipaka condition the > ripening of a kammic seed of yours? Perhaps there is no contact point. P > erhaps there is stream to stream conditioning, just as there is > conditioning-at-a-distance within a single stream. That's fine. In any case, > there is stream-to-stream interaction. That's about all that I claim. > I see the interaction of streams as extremely indirect. Your citta causes your hand to move to type a message; goodness knows how many other things were conditioned (electrons moving in your computer, across the Internet and in my computer) before an image (visible object) appeared on my screen. As an "ethical phenomenologist", I only want to focus on direct interactions. Once I start accepting "indirect" and "indirect- indirect" and "indirect-indirect-indirect", I start down a slippery slope that leads to a non-phenomenological (and therefore outside of the scope of ethics) perspective. Metta, Rob M :-) 17827 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 1:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi, Rob - Okay. I'm seeing this matter a bit more clearly, I think. Our phenomenological understandings are similar. The main difference is that you are what you call an "ethical phenomenologist", whereas I am what might be called an "ontological phenomenologist", or a "phenomenalist", or, with William James, a "radical empiricist". [I believe that your position of ethical phenomenology is based on the view that this is what is relevant to liberation (a sentiment I share), but, ontologically, I'm not sure what your position is - I think it is a hybrid one.] With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/16/02 9:43:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > Okay. We're getting much closer in understanding, and I can > see that > >our positions may be quite close. One question: Where is the > >point-of-contact? How does the rupa that is my kamma vipaka > condition the > >ripening of a kammic seed of yours? Perhaps there is no contact > point. P > >erhaps there is stream to stream conditioning, just as there is > >conditioning-at-a-distance within a single stream. That's fine. In > any case, > >there is stream-to-stream interaction. That's about all that I > claim. > > > > I see the interaction of streams as extremely indirect. Your citta > causes your hand to move to type a message; goodness knows how many > other things were conditioned (electrons moving in your computer, > across the Internet and in my computer) before an image (visible > object) appeared on my screen. > > As an "ethical phenomenologist", I only want to focus on direct > interactions. Once I start accepting "indirect" and "indirect- > indirect" and "indirect-indirect-indirect", I start down a slippery > slope that leads to a non-phenomenological (and therefore outside of > the scope of ethics) perspective. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17828 From: James Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:09pm Subject: Re: Mara No More --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi James, > > I am sincerely happy for you. I have heard that meditation visions > can be dangerous. (Yea! They scared the holy crap outta me! :-) But they are only dangerous if you attach to them and believe that they are real or significant. I was doing that, not knowing that they were coming from meditative states of mind, and so they were getting worse. Now that I know what they are, I know what to do. I am 100% positive they will stop. I just knew one thing for sure--I wasn't crazy.) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Metta, James 17829 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > Okay. I'm seeing this matter a bit more clearly, I think. Our > phenomenological understandings are similar. The main difference is that you > are what you call an "ethical phenomenologist", whereas I am what might be > called an "ontological phenomenologist", or a "phenomenalist", or, with > William James, a "radical empiricist". [I believe that your position of > ethical phenomenology is based on the view that this is what is relevant to > liberation (a sentiment I share), but, ontologically, I'm not sure what your > position is - I think it is a hybrid one.] When it comes to questions touching ethics (i.e. Buddhism), the only things on my radar screen are things that touch my mind. This is because I see ethics as being mind-based: "Mind is the forerunner of all evil states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves." When it comes to non-ethics issues (I am an engineer by training), I no longer am a phenomenologist. I see non-ethics issues as not involving the mind. Metta, Rob M :-) 17830 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Rob, I agree the javana/vipaka relationship doesn't appear to support the idea "good intentions produce good results". However, I think it should support this idea because that is how I understand buddhist ethics and kamma. Maybe I have it wrong. How do you understand Buddhist ethics and kamma (I'm assuming they go together)? I'm starting to think the resultant javana idea won't work, so here's another: kusala intentions produce pleasant vedana results. Also, is there mind door javana and mind door vipaka, or is kamma only a reaction to rupa? Also, I've loosened up my ideas on what vipaka means. Today's weather probably wasn't due to a specific javana series in my past, but, due to a javana citta at the end of my past life I was born in this time and place and with this genetic make-up. Due to the combination of genes and culture I lived this long and ended up in this place and experienced today's weather. That is one way of explaining how today's weather is the result of a javana citta. Also, of course, my choice to drive a car and use coal produced electricity played a part in global warming and contributed to today's weather. However, since today's weather was pleasant, I must have done something right in the past. Knowing a tiny bit how painful pain can be, I will try to keep a sharp eye out for akusala cittas. Even though I am equipped with a powerful and sophisticated philosophy it is all someone else's wisdom as is the idea kusala cittas produce pleasant vedana. So, I just have to follow my accumulations:))) One slight misunderstanding in your reply. There is a rupa outside a sense door and a rupa inside a sense door. I am contending they are different kinds of phenomena. I asked Howard if I could call the rupa inside a sense door a consciousness, but he said no. So in my email to you I called it a "whatever-it-is". When a rupa touches the sensitive matter of a sense door, it seems to me this sensitive matter converts that input into something that can relate to bhavanga and all the other cittas. This whatever-it-is is not the same stuff as what is outside the sense door touching the sensitive matter. In addition to that, we have no real experience of rupa until sense consciousness arises. This sense consciousness is what we know directly as rupa and it is a different phenomenon from the rupa outside the sense door and the whatever-it-is. So basically, there are three rupas. Howard seemed to think the sense consciousness rupa would be overlaid with concepts but I don't think concepts come into the picture in a major way until the accumulations arise. I'm betting on sanna as being chiefly responsible for concepts and accumulations in general. I like your 4 part kamma progression: 1. Good intentions -> "seed for future vipaka" (not inherently good or bad) 2. Good intentions -> good accumulations 3. Conditions + "seed for future vipaka" -> current situation 4. Current situation + good accumulations -> good intentions L: My only qualm is that we have to say "current situation" is neither good nor bad. We can at least say current situation is pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral, and we can also say current situation is dukkha. Is that enough to satisfy a moral imperative? Larry 17831 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mara No More Hi James, I'm very glad to read your report. It sounds as though this wise monk was just the person to visit and it all makes very good sense. It must have been a really helpful encounter. Thank you for sharing the report. Sarah p.s - I hope you saw my DSG note to you yesterday - it didn't come through on escribe or my inbox even tho' it's there on the website. 17832 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, no 2 Perfections, Ch 7, no 2 If sati-sampajañña arises, the perfection of patience will become more refined. We need patience and endurance, because akusala citta arises often in daily life. Patience in our daily life is ³adhivåsanå khanti². The Påli word adhivasati means to inhabit (våso is habitation), and adhivåsanå khanti is acceptance and endurance with regard to our living conditions, our environment, the place where we live, thus, the dhamma of each moment. This is, for example, the change of temperature which may be hot or cold. If sati-sampajañña does not arise, we may say, ³It is very hot², and then there is likely to be already akusala citta. If sati-sampajañña has become more refined, we can find out whether our patience in action and speech with regard to our environment is deficient or whether it has grown and developed. There is khanti påramí, the perfection of patience, when sati-sampajañña arises and knows the characteristic of the citta at that moment. If sati-sampajañña knows that there is akusala citta there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta instead. If patience is developed, someone who was in the habit of complaining can refrain from it, and someone who usually was bad-tempered can understand that this is useless. If someone dislikes particular objects, he can understand that this is akusala which does not serve any purpose at all and then sati-sampajañña can arise so that the perfection of patience can further develop. In daily life we need a great deal of patience, because apart from endurance with regard to our environment or living conditions, we have to be patient and tolerant towards people with different characters and habits. Some people are in the habit of doing everything quickly, and they should be patient with people who are slow in their actions. We may meet someone who is of contrarious behaviour, but we should be patient and tolerant towards him and not complain about him. If sati-sampajañña arises there are conditions to refrain from critizing or blaming such a person, to think with mettå of giving him guidance, support and advice at the appropriate occasion. Thus we see that the perfection of khanti should not be lacking in our daily life. There should be patience and endurance in our manners and behaviour. For example, when people travel together there are bound to be difficulties as regards seats and sleeping places, the means of transportation and appointments. When someone does not complain and does not criticize, and when he has sympathetic understanding and assists others, his fellowmen will approve of him and praise him. We should know that akusala dhammas, including lobha and dosa, cannot endure, but only sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas can endure. When we see someone who is impeccable in action, speech and thinking, we know that he has endurance with regard to the different situations and events that occur, because his sobhana cetasikas have been developed. There is no being, person or self, but only sobhana cetasikas which develop when kusala citta arises. However, when patience is lacking akusala citta arises. ****** 17833 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness? Jon and Steve, There is a great deal on aspects of nibbana in the Book of Analysis, Ch 4, Analysis of Truth. See the truth of cessation. Considering these aspects helps us to understand a little more about the nature of nibbana. It is good to study Num's post on the Path of Discrimination 6, giving several aspects, like animitta, not nimitta which is conditioned dhamma. One aspect that may interest some who believe nibbana is a higher kind of consciousness: the Truth of cessation has no object. And: the Truth of cessation is not coexistent with consciousness. Nina op 16-12-2002 01:03 schreef jonoabb op jonoabb@y...: > --- Bodhi2500@a... wrote: > ... >> Does anyone know what the Abhidhamma states as Nibbana's own >> charateristics(sabhava??)? 17834 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi, Rob - Great! Crystal clear!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/16/02 10:36:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > When it comes to questions touching ethics (i.e. Buddhism), the only > things on my radar screen are things that touch my mind. This is > because I see ethics as being mind-based: > > "Mind is the forerunner of all evil states. Mind is chief; mind-made > are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows > one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is > the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are > they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, > even as one's shadow that never leaves." > > When it comes to non-ethics issues (I am an engineer by training), I > no longer am a phenomenologist. I see non-ethics issues as not > involving the mind. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17835 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maybe a little message to help things along Dear Dion, Others have added comments to your post and welcomed you on here. For any newcomers to DSG, I think it must be very confusing and frustrating in the beginning when one doesn’t ‘know’ any of the people or understand any of the threads of discussion, some of which go back a long way. Please be patient and don’t give up! A few tips: 1. Don’t try to read everything in the beginning - just select threads which seem relevant to you or can easily be understood. 2. Start your own threads - ask (polite) questions about topics which seem more relevant to your practice. 3. Refer to the Pali glossary -print it out to have next to the computer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms 4. Refer to Useful Posts and in particular, posts under ‘New to the list...’ .,’Abhidhamma -New...’ and ‘Pali’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 5. If you’re getting confused by all the names and the different Robs - look at the photo section under photos on the left of the home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup (also if any new members post their photos, we’d all appreciate it ) 6. Feel free to ask for help or clarification anytime. There is a lot of goodwill and a large number of members who are always willing to help out. Everyone has been new to the list at sometime or other;-) ***** Hope you find your stay useful and enjoyable. Sarah ===== p.s Nina is now getting her mail, so I think anyone can now write to her on list (it seems her inbox was full - she may have received a large document). One of the first messages she got was yours, Dion. She laughed about ‘that Nina person’ and now refers to herself in that way;-). She also stresses that no one needs to read or like any of her books - we can all just choose what we find helpful. She looks forward to hearing more people talk about ‘experiences in life’ and to more friendships with you and others. ***** 17836 From: James Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mara No More --- Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I'm very glad to read your report. It sounds as though this wise monk was > just the person to visit and it all makes very good sense. It must have > been a really helpful encounter. > > Thank you for sharing the report. > > Sarah > > p.s - I hope you saw my DSG note to you yesterday - it didn't come through > on escribe or my inbox even tho' it's there on the website. Dear Sarah, Oh, no, I had missed that post. I skipped a lot of posts I thought were unrelated to me and yours was buried. I think you had a problem with my statement that lobha isn't completely abandoned in Arahants/Buddhas/Silent Buddhas. You state that the suttas say otherwise and would like proof of my statement. *Sigh* Okay, I did a quick search and found one telling sutta. I am sure I could find others but I don't see the point of that. As was already pointed out in this list, the Buddha had certain 'defilements' in regards to his view of women, that is proof enough of my statement. But I will provide more proof since you seem amazed and shocked by my comment. Here are the defilements: 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed 2. byapada, ill will 3. kodha, anger 4. upanaha, hostility or malice 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt 6. palasa, domineering or presumption 7. issa, envy 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit 10. satheyya, fraud 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity 13. mana, conceit 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness 15. mada, vanity or pride 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads to lack of consideration. Here is the sutta where the Buddha proclaims that they are only abondoned "in part" by aryians: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn007.html Please don't ask me to prove more. This makes me very uncomfortable to even prove this much. I don't like to focus on what can't be done; I like to focus on what can be done. But the goal should be reasonable and not based on 'wishful fantasy'. I am not sure what the Abhidhamma says in regards to this issue. I don't believe/follow the Abhidhamma. Metta, James 17837 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness? Dear Nina, Steve & Jon, I just posted before I saw yr messages;-) --- nilo@e... wrote: > Jon and Steve, > There is a great deal on aspects of nibbana in the Book of Analysis, Ch > 4, > Analysis of Truth. See the truth of cessation. Considering these aspects > helps us to understand a little more about the nature of nibbana. .... We also had some discussion before on sabhava and nibbana (there will be more quotes from texts in U.P. under 'sabhava' or 'nibbana' on this). There is a lot of detail in a couple of footnotes in Vism (BPS), esp V111, n68, p.789. One quote from it: "Of nibbana (for which see XV1, 46ff), which has its own individual essence, the Mula Tika says: 'Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of consciousness (aalambitu.m) by one who has not realized it. that is why it has to be realized by change-of-lineage. it has profundity surpasing any individual essence belonging to the three periods of time' (VbhAA.38)." ***** Sarah ====== 17838 From: Date: Mon Dec 16, 2002 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Rob, My main response is that people who are only interested in what the Buddha himself said are people who don't talk to other people about buddhadhamma. And what do you mean by pseudo science? They got it wrong? If so, how should it go? Here is a snippet from the introduction to "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": While it is tempting to try to discern evidence of historical development in the Commentaries over and beyond the ideas imbedded in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, it is risky to push this line too far, for a great deal of the canonical Abhidhamma seems to require the Commentaries to contribute the unifying context in which the individual elements hang together as parts of a systematic whole and without which they lose important dimensions of meaning. It is thus not unreasonable to assume that a substantial portion of the commentarial apparatus originated in close proximity to the canonical Abhidhamma and was transmitted concurrently with the latter; though lacking the stamp of finality it was open to modification and amplification in a way that the canonical texts were not. Bearing this in mind, we might briefly note a few of the Abhidhammic conceptions that are characteristic of the Commentaries but either unknown or recessive in the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself. L: It then lists citta process, "moment" for "occasion", arising, presense, and dissolusion of a moment, kalapa as a way of organizing material phenomena, heart base, a limited number of cetasikas, intrinsic nature, and the defining device of characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause. It doesn't attribute any of these concepts to Acariya Anuruddha. The CMA is a manual for beginners, not a commentary. Its usefulness is very much a matter of accumulations and javana cittas, but I would say it has survived the test of time, so far. Larry 17839 From: robmoult Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > My main response is that people who are only interested in what the > Buddha himself said are people who don't talk to other people about > buddhadhamma. And what do you mean by pseudo science? They got it wrong? I hope that you are not counting me as one of those "who are only interested in what the Buddha himself said". Here is a key message from my posting: Please don't get me wrong. I am not suggesting that we stop studying the commentarial literature. I suspect that Acariya Anuruddha and Buddhaghosa may have been Arahants and they definitely have much to teach us. I am suggesting that we see the commentarial literature for what it is; use it and learn from it but that we should remember the Buddha's words "Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind" as our guideline as to our focus. I am not making any comment about the accuracy or inaccuracy of the commentaries. I am commenting that much of what is in the commentaries takes a "scientific view" rather than an "ethical view". A "scientific view" is concerned with creating accurate models of reality and with classifications; these things are not part of "ethics". For example, what if there three javana cittas in a thought process rather than seven; it would change the model but it would have no bearing on ethics. Similarly, if there were really 90 classifications of cittas rather than 89, that would not have any ethical impact either. I call this scientific because it is disconnected from ethics. I added the prefix "pseudo-" because it may not qualify under today's definitions of "science" (i.e. repeatable, measurable results, etc.). I did not mean the term "pseudo-science" to have any negative connotations. Metta, Rob M :-) 17840 From: robmoult Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:17am Subject: Going off-line Friends, I will be spending the next few days in cities in China whose names I can't pronounce. My internet access does not extend to these cities, so I will not be able to respond to messages. Please don't think that I am ignoring you... I will reply. Metta, Rob M :-) 17841 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:30am Subject: Reply to James Dear James: Thanks a lot for writing to me in 17230. I certainly agree with you in the letter that when we do wrong things, we should always apologise to people. I am very surprsed that you would use the example of the cartoon Winnie the Pooh. I also agree that we should always be optimistic, so we would enjoy life. Once again, thanks a lot for writing and for your advice. Merry Christmas! Yours sincerely, Philip 17842 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:38am Subject: Samvega and Pasada Dear Group, The anxious and weary feeling that life is pointless and sometimes unbearable, that no matter how happy or enjoyable something is - it's doomed to change and end, an intense desire for things to be different, the irresistable attraction of the Teachings - that's samvega and pasada. Be glad of it, it means hopefully you won't waste this rare human birth on mundane pleasures. Samvega means a sense of urgency to escape the round of meaningless existence; and pasada, a clarity and serene confidence that allows one to proceed confidently towards the goal without lapsing into despair. A modern day cause of Samvega? http://www.antiwar.com/ Affirming the Truths of the Heart - The Buddist teachings on Samvega & Pasada. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/affirming.html Suttas about Samvega: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/affirming.html Samyutta Nikaya III.25 Pabbatopama Sutta 'The Simile of the Mountains' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-025.htmlSutta Nipata II.10 Utthana Sutta 'On Vigilance' http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5354/snp2-10.htm Anguttara Nikaya III.91 Accayika Sutta 'Urgent' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-091.html Anguttara Nikaya V.77-80 Anagata-bhayani Suttas 'The Discourses on Future Dangers' (four consecutive suttas) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-077.html#1 And my favourite yet again - sorry, but there's no link - I just think this translation is much more elegant than the one at ATI. Majjhima Nikaya 131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta 'A Single Excellent Night' (Bhikkhus Nanomoli and Bodhi trans.) "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." metta, Christine 17843 From: ajahn_paul Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:21am Subject: Re: May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan thx Rob! ^_~ --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi Ajahn Paul, > > The book was prepared in Penang. I have sent a letter to Penang > asking for a copy to be sent to me. No reply yet. I will be > following up with a phone call next week. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 17844 From: chase8383 Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mara No More Hi James From the Bloodstream Sermon of Bodhidharma: >>Everything that appears in the three realms comes from the mind. Hence Buddhas of the past and future teach mind to mind without bothering about definitions. Student: But if they don't define it, what do they mean by mind? Bodhidharma: You ask. That's your mind. I answer. That's my mind. If I had no mind how could I answer? If you had no mind, how could you ask? That which asks is your mind. Through endless kalpas" without beginning, whatever you do, wherever you are, that's your real mind, that's your real buddha. This mind is the buddha" says the same thing. Beyond this mind you'll never find another Buddha. To search for enlightenment or nirvana beyond this mind is impossible. The reality of your own self-nature the absence of cause and effect, is what's meant by mind. Your mind is nirvana. You might think you can find a Buddha or enlightenment somewhere beyond the mind', but such a place doesn't exist.Trying to find a Buddha or enlightenment is like trying to grab space. Space has a name but no form. It's not something you can pick up or put down. And you certainly can't grab if. Beyond mind you'll never see a Buddha. The Buddha is a product of the mind. Why look for a Buddha beyond this mind? Buddhas of the past and future only talk about this mind. The mind is the Buddha, and the Buddha is the mind. Beyond the mind there's no Buddha and beyond the Buddha there's no mind. If you think there is a Buddha beyond the mind', where is he? There's no Buddha beyond the mind, so why envision one? You can't know your real mind as long as you deceive yourself. As long as you're enthralled by a lifeless form, you're not free. If you don't believe me, deceiving yourself won't help. It's not the Buddha's fault. People, though, are deluded. They're unaware that their own mind is the Buddha. Otherwise they wouldn't look for a Buddha outside the mind. Buddhas don't save Buddhas. If you use your mind to look for a Buddha, you won't see the Buddha. As long as you look for a Buddha somewhere else, you'll never see that your own mind is the Buddha. Don't use a Buddha to worship a Buddha. And don't use the mind to invoke a Buddha." Buddhas don't recite sutras." Buddhas don't keep precepts." And Buddhas don't break precepts. Buddhas don't keep or break anything. Buddhas don't do good or evil. To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature." Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha. If you don't see your nature, invoking Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are all useless. Invoking Buddhas results in good karma, reciting sutras results in a good memory; keeping precepts results in a good rebirth, and making offerings results in future blessings-but no buddha. If you don't understand by yourself, you'll have to find a teacher to get to the bottom of life and death. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn't a tea6er. Even if he can recite the Twelvefold Canon he can't escape the Wheel of Birth and Death. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star 21 was able to recite the entire Canon. But he didn't escape the Wheel, because he didn't see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think it's the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your mind, reciting so much prose is useless.<< James: "I think you had a problem with my statement that lobha isn't completely abandoned in Arahants/Buddhas/Silent Buddhas. You state that the suttas say otherwise and would like proof of my statement. *Sigh* Okay, I did a quick search and found one telling sutta. I am sure I could find others but I don't see the point of that. As was already pointed out in this list, the Buddha had certain 'defilements' in regards to his view of women, that is proof enough of my statement. But I will provide more proof since you seem amazed and shocked by my comment. Here are the defilements: 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed 2. byapada, ill will 3. kodha, anger 4. upanaha, hostility or malice 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt 6. palasa, domineering or presumption 7. issa, envy 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit 10. satheyya, fraud 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity 13. mana, conceit 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness 15. mada, vanity or pride 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this leads to lack of consideration." Peace, David 17845 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi, Larry (and Rob) - In a message dated 12/17/02 12:59:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > ... Bearing this in mind, we might briefly > note a few of the Abhidhammic conceptions that are characteristic of the > Commentaries but either unknown or recessive in the Abhidhamma Pitaka > itself. > > L: It then lists citta process, "moment" for "occasion", arising, > presense, and dissolusion of a moment, kalapa as a way of organizing > material phenomena, heart base, a limited number of cetasikas, intrinsic > nature, and the defining device of characteristic, function, > manifestation, and proximate cause. It doesn't attribute any of these > concepts to Acariya Anuruddha. The CMA is a manual for beginners, not a > commentary. Its usefulness is very much a matter of accumulations and > javana cittas, but I would say it has survived the test of time, so far. > > ========================== So you are saying that all these notions provided in the list appear in the commentaries but not in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, itself? If so, I have just felt the cheese become a bit more binding. Included in this list are such troublesome-to-some notions as moments and their phases, kalapas, and intrinsic nature. These notions are among those which lie at the frontier of differentiation between Theravada and Mahayana. [Two things have arisen in me: 1) an increase in caution with regard to the commentaries, and 2) an increase in confidence in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and its origins. But these are just tentative inclinations on my part - nothing firm yet.] I have a copy of the CMA. I look forward to reexamining its introduction. I'm particularly interested in seeing which cetasikas are not included in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17846 From: chase8383 Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:01am Subject: Re: Samvega and Pasada Hi Christine Excellent post. You quoted: ""Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably. Today the effort must be made; Tomorrow Death may come, who knows? No bargain with Mortality Can keep him and his hordes away, But one who dwells thus ardently, Relentlessly, by day, by night - It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said, Who has had a single excellent night." When a log burns, it becomes ash. Why worry about how it became ash? It's ash now. When a bird flys from one tree to another, it's in the other tree now. Did it leave a trace as it flew through the air? Is part of it still in the tree it flew from? No, it's just in the tree it flew to. Peace, David 17847 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Going off-line Hi, Rob - In a message dated 12/17/02 4:18:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Friends, > > I will be spending the next few days in cities in China whose names > I can't pronounce. My internet access does not extend to these > cities, so I will not be able to respond to messages. > > Please don't think that I am ignoring you... I will reply. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================= Have a wonderful trip, Rob. BTW, I've thoroughly enjoyed our recent exchanges. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17848 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis With due respect, there is suffering kind rgds KC --- "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Peter, thank you for explaining to all the members this rules. > If I was > a woman, under no circunstances I will humiliate myself to be > treaty that > way. Many times I have to shut and bite my tonge when I see in the > temples > where I go ( this afternoon for example) the Sri Lanka monk is in > SriLanka > so at 5 pm I am conducting by myself the entire ceremony, allthe > men will > kneel in the front and the women at the back. It looks like the > 21st century > has not reach Buddhism. Ven. Yanatharo > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: peterdac4298 > [mailto:peterdac4298@y...] > Enviado el: Domingo, Diciembre 15, 2002 12:21 p.m. > Asunto: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis > > > Hi Christine, Sarah, and all > > In my previous post on this thread I used the > expression "intimidating and demeaning" in brief reference to the > original, historic Bhikkhuni Sangha, and how this was absent from > the more democratic Amaravati style DSM Sangha of today. I feel I > aught to expand this so as to avoid any misunderstanding. > > As most of us are aware, at the time of the Buddha, when Ananda > thrice requested the admittance of women to the Sangha, the Buddha > replied in what could be seen by todays standards as rather a > derogatory, if not paranoid manner. > > He spoke about the Sasana lasting only half the time it originally > would have. And also insisted on eight restrictions ('capital > points', ~Naa.namoli) to be imposed on the nuns as a condition for > their admittance. One of which was that a nun of advanced > seniority > would be junior to a monk newly admitted that very day. Another > spoke of Bhikkhunis not being allowed to find fault with Bhikkhus > nor admonish them at all. A Bhikkhuni must never address > discourses > to Bhikkhus, but Bhikkhus may address discourses to Bhikkhunis. In > the matter of grave offences a Bhikkhuni must do penance before > both > Sanghas. Additionally to these eight capital points, a Bhikkhuni > must be given the admission by both Sanghas (and is why the lineage > could not be restored once broken: hence the need to find an > unbroken branch elsewhere). > > The Buddha gave his reasons for insisting on these eight conditions > of acceptance. He unflatteringly likened women in the Sangha to a > rice field being infected by various kinds of fungus or mildew. A > clan with too many women and too few men is vulnerable to robbers > and bandits is likened to the Sangha with women admitted. "...As > a > man might construct in advance an embankment so that the waters of > a > great reservoir should not cause a flood, so I too have made known > in advance these eight cardinal points..." (~Naa.namoli) > > Now this can't be explained as some kind of slip of the tongue, or > even playing to contemporary sensibilities. These are powerful and > systematic statements. What are we to make of them? The Buddha, > having willingly recognised their equal ability to fully penetrate > and realize the Dhamma, is more than creating an historic precedent > by granting women the admission. This is virtual revolution by the > standards of that time. But he goes to great lengths to ensure > that > there is no mistaking his view on female admission. It's always > possible the Buddha, being a mere mortal, had some kind of a blind > spot and got this bit wrong! > > Either way, the Amaravati DSM's evade this whole issue, and seem > quite happy having equal rank with Bhikkhus even though it is only > within the Amaravati Sangha. They enjoy the holy life, exhibit a > mature understanding of the Dhamma and are much sought after for > teaching engagements. > > Cheers > Peter > > --- "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi Sarah, and all, > > > > You are correct - any discussion of this matter on this list, > > particularly between you and I, has been respectfully conducted. > > The rest is probably my subjective interpretation. Implacability, > > though, has been evinced by people taking the 'the scriptures say > > it's impossible to reinstate' line. e.g. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15646 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15653 > > > > Of great interest to me is this article which states: 'There is > > permission in the Vinaya Chullavagga for monks to ordain nuns." > > and, "the Bhikkhuni Sasana has been revived in Sri Lanka > According > > to full Theravada ceremonial." > > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/nunorder.htm > > > > > metta, > > > > Christine > > > > > > --- Sarah > wrote: > > > Dear Christine, > > > > > > --- "christine_forsyth " > > > wrote: > Dear Peter, > > > > > > > > On a number of lists (including this one) and over a period > of > > time, > > > > I have found the topic of the Bhikkuni Sangha, and > especially > > the > > > > issue of its Restoration in terms of the original, to be > > > > uncomfortable to many posters. 17849 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis With due respect, I mean this is suffering kind rgds KC --- "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Peter, thank you for explaining to all the members this rules. > If I was > a woman, under no circunstances I will humiliate myself to be > treaty that > way. Many times I have to shut and bite my tonge when I see in the > temples > where I go ( this afternoon for example) the Sri Lanka monk is in > SriLanka > so at 5 pm I am conducting by myself the entire ceremony, allthe > men will > kneel in the front and the women at the back. It looks like the > 21st century > has not reach Buddhism. Ven. Yanatharo > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: peterdac4298 > [mailto:peterdac4298@y...] > Enviado el: Domingo, Diciembre 15, 2002 12:21 p.m. > Asunto: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis > > > Hi Christine, Sarah, and all > > In my previous post on this thread I used the > expression "intimidating and demeaning" in brief reference to the > original, historic Bhikkhuni Sangha, and how this was absent from > the more democratic Amaravati style DSM Sangha of today. I feel I > aught to expand this so as to avoid any misunderstanding. > > As most of us are aware, at the time of the Buddha, when Ananda > thrice requested the admittance of women to the Sangha, the Buddha > replied in what could be seen by todays standards as rather a > derogatory, if not paranoid manner. > > He spoke about the Sasana lasting only half the time it originally > would have. And also insisted on eight restrictions ('capital > points', ~Naa.namoli) to be imposed on the nuns as a condition for > their admittance. One of which was that a nun of advanced > seniority > would be junior to a monk newly admitted that very day. Another > spoke of Bhikkhunis not being allowed to find fault with Bhikkhus > nor admonish them at all. A Bhikkhuni must never address > discourses > to Bhikkhus, but Bhikkhus may address discourses to Bhikkhunis. In > the matter of grave offences a Bhikkhuni must do penance before > both > Sanghas. Additionally to these eight capital points, a Bhikkhuni > must be given the admission by both Sanghas (and is why the lineage > could not be restored once broken: hence the need to find an > unbroken branch elsewhere). > > The Buddha gave his reasons for insisting on these eight conditions > of acceptance. He unflatteringly likened women in the Sangha to a > rice field being infected by various kinds of fungus or mildew. A > clan with too many women and too few men is vulnerable to robbers > and bandits is likened to the Sangha with women admitted. "...As > a > man might construct in advance an embankment so that the waters of > a > great reservoir should not cause a flood, so I too have made known > in advance these eight cardinal points..." (~Naa.namoli) > > Now this can't be explained as some kind of slip of the tongue, or > even playing to contemporary sensibilities. These are powerful and > systematic statements. What are we to make of them? The Buddha, > having willingly recognised their equal ability to fully penetrate > and realize the Dhamma, is more than creating an historic precedent > by granting women the admission. This is virtual revolution by the > standards of that time. But he goes to great lengths to ensure > that > there is no mistaking his view on female admission. It's always > possible the Buddha, being a mere mortal, had some kind of a blind > spot and got this bit wrong! > > Either way, the Amaravati DSM's evade this whole issue, and seem > quite happy having equal rank with Bhikkhus even though it is only > within the Amaravati Sangha. They enjoy the holy life, exhibit a > mature understanding of the Dhamma and are much sought after for > teaching engagements. > > Cheers > Peter > > --- "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi Sarah, and all, > > > > You are correct - any discussion of this matter on this list, > > particularly between you and I, has been respectfully conducted. > > The rest is probably my subjective interpretation. Implacability, > > though, has been evinced by people taking the 'the scriptures say > > it's impossible to reinstate' line. e.g. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15646 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15653 > > > > Of great interest to me is this article which states: 'There is > > permission in the Vinaya Chullavagga for monks to ordain nuns." > > and, "the Bhikkhuni Sasana has been revived in Sri Lanka > According > > to full Theravada ceremonial." > > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/nunorder.htm > > > > > metta, > > > > Christine > > > > > > --- Sarah > wrote: 17850 From: nidive Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:57am Subject: Do brahmas experience vipaka? Since brahmas have no five senses, does this mean they don't experience vipaka of any kind? If not, how do they experience vipaka? 17851 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:18am Subject: RE: [dsg] Do brahmas experience vipaka? Dear Swee Boon, Only arupa brahmas and a particular rupa brahma doesn't have the 5 senses. The arupa brahmas have vipaka cittas too. The bhavanga cittas interrupting the citta vithis are vipaka. Also, if they reach the supra-mundane path, the supra-mundane fruit is vipaka. Also, if they have meditation on supra-mundane fruit (as an Ariyan), the citta vithi is vipaka. We can't verify any of this, can we? kom > -----Original Message----- > From: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 5:58 AM > Subject: [dsg] Do brahmas experience vipaka? > > > Since brahmas have no five senses, does this mean > they don't > experience vipaka of any kind? If not, how do > they experience vipaka? 17852 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi Peter "It's always > possible the Buddha, being a mere mortal, had some kind of a blind > spot and got this bit wrong!" Buddha does not have a blind spot and he has good reasons to do this. He is a man of equality, he has reservation, then there must be very good reason and not discounting that he could see things in the future. As I said before, Buddha is not affected by any norms or culture. I think it is not fair to judge his actions of him putting so much rules on a Bhikkhunis and his actions seems to be of inequality. His rules are not to be changed. For this we have to accept it even though it could be very hard for us bc now we are in the world where all humans have equal rights. It is also wrong for us to do against his rules bc there are very good reasons for him doing that. We are not at his level, so if we need to accept his teachings then we got to accepts his reasons on issues that he don't wish to discuss too much on. Certain norms set by him previously have been changed. The consequences is very damaging to the Sangha world. Take for example the acceptance of money rather than begging in the Chinese customs. What was meant to suite cultural norms at that time but its initial good intention has been corroded and has now becoming a maglinant cancer. If my words are too strong, I am very sorry but this is a truth I have observe. But what to do, even Buddha laws will eventually disappear from this world. Solemn and disheartening but this is the truth. rgds KC --- "peterdac4298 " wrote: > Hi Christine, Sarah, and all > > In my previous post on this thread I used the > expression "intimidating and demeaning" in brief reference to the > original, historic Bhikkhuni Sangha, and how this was absent from > the more democratic Amaravati style DSM Sangha of today. I feel I > aught to expand this so as to avoid any misunderstanding. > > As most of us are aware, at the time of the Buddha, when Ananda > thrice requested the admittance of women to the Sangha, the Buddha > replied in what could be seen by todays standards as rather a > derogatory, if not paranoid manner. > > He spoke about the Sasana lasting only half the time it originally > would have. And also insisted on eight restrictions ('capital > points', ~Naa.namoli) to be imposed on the nuns as a condition for > their admittance. One of which was that a nun of advanced > seniority > would be junior to a monk newly admitted that very day. Another > spoke of Bhikkhunis not being allowed to find fault with Bhikkhus > nor admonish them at all. A Bhikkhuni must never address > discourses > to Bhikkhus, but Bhikkhus may address discourses to Bhikkhunis. In > > the matter of grave offences a Bhikkhuni must do penance before > both > Sanghas. Additionally to these eight capital points, a Bhikkhuni > must be given the admission by both Sanghas (and is why the lineage > > could not be restored once broken: hence the need to find an > unbroken branch elsewhere). > > The Buddha gave his reasons for insisting on these eight conditions > > of acceptance. He unflatteringly likened women in the Sangha to a > rice field being infected by various kinds of fungus or mildew. A > clan with too many women and too few men is vulnerable to robbers > and bandits is likened to the Sangha with women admitted. "...As > a > man might construct in advance an embankment so that the waters of > a > great reservoir should not cause a flood, so I too have made known > in advance these eight cardinal points..." (~Naa.namoli) > > Now this can't be explained as some kind of slip of the tongue, or > even playing to contemporary sensibilities. These are powerful and > > systematic statements. What are we to make of them? The Buddha, > having willingly recognised their equal ability to fully penetrate > and realize the Dhamma, is more than creating an historic precedent > > by granting women the admission. This is virtual revolution by the > > standards of that time. But he goes to great lengths to ensure > that > there is no mistaking his view on female admission. It's always > possible the Buddha, being a mere mortal, had some kind of a blind > spot and got this bit wrong! > > Either way, the Amaravati DSM's evade this whole issue, and seem > quite happy having equal rank with Bhikkhus even though it is only > within the Amaravati Sangha. They enjoy the holy life, exhibit a > mature understanding of the Dhamma and are much sought after for > teaching engagements. > > Cheers > Peter > > --- "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi Sarah, and all, > > > > You are correct - any discussion of this matter on this list, > > particularly between you and I, has been respectfully conducted. > > > The rest is probably my subjective interpretation. Implacability, > > > though, has been evinced by people taking the 'the scriptures say > > > it's impossible to reinstate' line. e.g. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15646 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15653 > > > > Of great interest to me is this article which states: 'There is > > permission in the Vinaya Chullavagga for monks to ordain nuns." > > and, "the Bhikkhuni Sasana has been revived in Sri Lanka > According > > to full Theravada ceremonial." > > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/nunorder.htm > > > > > metta, > > > > Christine 17853 From: James Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mara No More --- "chase8383 " wrote: Hi David, What you describe is The Third Gate of the Dharma Seal of Mahayana Buddhism; called 'Wishlessness'. Not only is it off-topic for this list, it is impossible to reach with so much platitudes. Metta, James 17854 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:48am Subject: Re: Samvega and Pasada Hi David, You wrote: "When a log burns, it becomes ash. Why worry about how it became ash? It's ash now. When a bird flys from one tree to another, it's in the other tree now. Did it leave a trace as it flew through the air? Is part of it still in the tree it flew from? No, it's just in the tree it flew to. " I agree. But living one's life that way is a little more difficult. Your mention of the bird flying from one tree to another, reminds me of this poem (cut and pasted below) on the Present Moment being all there is. The poem takes a lot longer to say what you did in fewer words. :) Thanks. metta, Christine Excerpts from "Now and Then" June 18, 1995 Each and every morning, first this spring and now this summer, a house wren calls out. He calls out, "I am THIS house wren and this is my house. Stay away." His house is a hole in the wall of the house neighbouring this building. It is a brick wall that faces onto and adjoins the monastery garden. The house wren sits in this hole sometimes, and there he calls out his message. Sometimes, however, he sits amongst the branches and leaves of the sumac tree. Sometimes he sits on the wires. Now he is here and now he's there. When here, it is here, now. When there, it is then. But when "then" was "now," "there" was "here." Whenever anything happens it happens now and "now" IS this "happening." Each moment, when it is THIS moment, is right now. But "then" was once "now" and "right now" tick tick tick is now "then." This moment is not the past moment, not the future moment but in this moment what happens as this moment both shows and hides the past. The bird was "there" and now is "here." The future, however, seems to be utterly hidden. We can have some very small sense of the future, in that, we can know, somewhat, the future completion of the motion of lifting, placing, and setting the foot. But we might die before the foot makes contact with the next stair and go tumbling down. We don't know. We don't know. The future is that hidden. Because it is so hidden from us, we can engage in all manner of speculation. We can lose ourselves in all manner of hopes and fears. We can imagine future glories, or complete and abject failure, or any combination thereof... And so it can seem to us that time moves as past, present and future. Each moment has a past and a future. Each moment is this moment and there is only this moment. But each moment, when it is this moment, is only this moment. And this moment contains within itself past and future. But "past" and "future" only have meaning when measured from this moment; and this moment has no width. It has no depth. There is nothing that is this moment. There is only this presencing, this activity of Experiencing that is happening everywhere right now. ---------------------------- We understand nothing about time because we understand nothing about this moment. --------------------------------- Time is not merely something which "passes." "It is the utter and radical impermanence that makes life possible so that when you breathe in you don't have to hold it forever and ever. You can breathe out. And when you breathe out there is room to breathe in. And this impermanence is so radical that it must be understood not as some thing which happens "to" things but as the activity, the presencing, of Reality." ------------------------------ then, knowing that you don't know what anything is becomes such an open ended questioning that it opens into wonder. And when this wonder is unfolded in each moment of your life, not just your "practice" but your life, when you understand that "practice" is your life, when you are practising your life, then the doubt which became questioning, which became wonder, becomes understanding. http://www.wwzc.org/teisho/wildTime.htm --------------------------------- --- "chase8383 " wrote: > Hi Christine 17855 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mara No More > Dear Sarah, > > Oh, no, I had missed that post. I skipped a lot of posts I thought > were unrelated to me and yours was buried. I think you had a > problem with my statement that lobha isn't completely abandoned in > Arahants/Buddhas/Silent Buddhas. You state that the suttas say > otherwise and would like proof of my statement. *Sigh* Okay, I did > a quick search and found one telling sutta. I am sure I could find > others but I don't see the point of that. As was already pointed > out in this list, the Buddha had certain 'defilements' in regards to > his view of women, that is proof enough of my statement. But I will > provide more proof since you seem amazed and shocked by my comment. > Here are the defilements: > > 1. abhijjha-visama-lobha, covetousness and unrighteous greed > 2. byapada, ill will > 3. kodha, anger > 4. upanaha, hostility or malice > 5. makkha, denigration or detraction; contempt > 6. palasa, domineering or presumption > 7. issa, envy > 8. macchariya, jealousy, or avarice; selfishness > 9. maya, hypocrisy or deceit > 10. satheyya, fraud > 11. thambha, obstinacy, obduracy > 12. sarambha, presumption or rivalry; impetuosity > 13. mana, conceit > 14. atimana, arrogance, haughtiness > 15. mada, vanity or pride > 16. pamada, negligence or heedlessness; in social behavior, this > leads to lack of consideration. > > Here is the sutta where the Buddha proclaims that they are only > abondoned "in part" by aryians: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn007.html > > Please don't ask me to prove more. This makes me very uncomfortable > to even prove this much. I don't like to focus on what can't be > done; I like to focus on what can be done. But the goal should be > reasonable and not based on 'wishful fantasy'. I am not sure what > the Abhidhamma says in regards to this issue. I don't > believe/follow the Abhidhamma. > > Metta, James Actually I think this Sutta indirectly supports the position that an Arahant does not have any defilements. You will notice in the Sutta that the first sections that talk about giving up the defilements in part have this paragraph before the next section ""He knows: 'I have given up, renounced, let go, abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part'; and he gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains enthusiasm for the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma." Now in the notes of the MLD by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, it states that these sections apply to a once returner, based on the defilements talked about. But you will notice that towards the end of the Sutta after talking about developing the brahmavihara there is this: "13. "He understands what exists, what is low, what is excellent,[13] and what escape there is from this [whole] field of perception.[14] " Here we have the development of insight which leads to Arhantship and then we get this as the result...notice the mention of "in part" is now gone... "14. "When he knows and sees[15] in this way, his mind becomes liberated from the canker of sensual desire, liberated from the canker of becoming, liberated from the canker of ignorance.[16] When liberated, there is knowledge: 'It is liberated'; and he knows: 'Birth is exhausted, the life of purity has been lived, the task is done, there is no more of this to come.' Such a monk is called 'one bathed with the inner bathing."[17] " Thus there are no more defilements to be relinquished. Oh one note down from the note you quoted shows which defilements are relinquished with each path... According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by the noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order: "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10) fraud. "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger, (4) malice, (16) negligence. "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14) arrogance, (15) vanity." Thus I think it is apparent that the first part of the Sutta that deals with relinquishing the defilements in part was not speaking about the attainments of an Arhant......Ray 17856 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 0:55pm Subject: Dualism/Non-Dualism Dear Group, 'Talking' with Buddhists of other traditions on the Internet, and even 'listening' to those who see themselves as Theravada, it seems to me Dualism/Non-Dualism is a confusion. My understanding of Non-Dualism is that it asserts that the ground of being is One. All separations or dualities are formed symbolically by Mind. I don't understand how this isn't just another way of ensuring there is an eternal self, albeit a Super Self - the dew-drop slipping into the shining sea. Does the Canon clarify what the Buddha taught in this respect? What is the Theravada perspective? metta, Christine 17857 From: James Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:36pm Subject: Re: Mara No More --- "Ray Hendrickson" > Actually I think this Sutta indirectly supports the position that an > Arahant does not have any defilements. You will notice in the Sutta that > the first sections that talk about giving up the defilements in part have > this paragraph before the next section ""He knows: 'I have given up, > renounced, let go, abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part'; > and he gains enthusiasm for the goal, gains enthusiasm for the Dhamma, gains > gladness connected with the Dhamma." Now in the notes of the MLD by Bhikkhu > Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi, it states that these sections apply to a once > returner, based on the defilements talked about. But you will notice that > towards the end of the Sutta after talking about developing the brahmavihara > there is this: > > "13. "He understands what exists, what is low, what is excellent, [13] and > what escape there is from this [whole] field of perception.[14] " > > Here we have the development of insight which leads to Arhantship and then > we get this as the result...notice the mention of "in part" is now gone... > > "14. "When he knows and sees[15] in this way, his mind becomes liberated > from the canker of sensual desire, liberated from the canker of becoming, > liberated from the canker of ignorance.[16] When liberated, there is > knowledge: 'It is liberated'; and he knows: 'Birth is exhausted, the life of > purity has been lived, the task is done, there is no more of this to come.' > Such a monk is called 'one bathed with the inner bathing."[17] " > > Thus there are no more defilements to be relinquished. Oh one note down > from the note you quoted shows which defilements are relinquished with each > path... > > According to the Comy., the sixteen defilements are finally abandoned by the > noble paths (or stages of sanctity) in the following order: > > "By the path of Stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) are abandoned: (5) > denigration, (6) domineering, (7) envy, (8) jealousy, (9) hypocrisy, (10) > fraud. > "By the path of Non-returning (anagami-magga): (2) ill will, (3) anger, (4) > malice, (16) negligence. > > "By the path of Arahatship (arahatta-magga): (1) covetousness and > unrighteous greed, (11) obstinacy, (12) presumption, (13) conceit, (14) > arrogance, (15) vanity." > > Thus I think it is apparent that the first part of the Sutta that deals > with relinquishing the defilements in part was not speaking about the > attainments of an Arhant......Ray Ray, Good reading. Now, look a bit deeper. I state that Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi make this assertion of `once-returner' interpretation, etc. with absolutely nothing contextually to support it. The structure of this sutta is very straightforward parallelism. 1. The defilements are listed; 2. The monk is praised who abandons these defilements `in part' (with no classifications whatsoever…meaning all monks) 3. The reward/consequence for such monks is detailed…and nibbana is the ultimate reward---for all 'before described monks'—no new classifications are set up for arahants. What Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi do in the footnotes of this sutta, quite purposefully throwing its exact meaning into doubt and confusion--is a travesty. But it hasn't been the first time monks have pushed a personal agenda in the interpretation of suttas. Question: Why does this simple sutta have such extensive footnotes? Answer: Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi want it to mean what they want it to mean. It makes me smile to see such scrambling to change the meaning. You don't see that with other suttas, and much more complex suttas, do you? Metta, James 17858 From: chase8383 Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi KC KC "Buddha does not have a blind spot and he has good reasons to do this. He is a man of equality, he has reservation, then there must be very good reason and not discounting that he could see things in the future. As I said before, Buddha is not affected by any norms or culture. I think it is not fair to judge his actions of him putting so much rules on a Bhikkhunis and his actions seems to be of inequality. His rules are not to be changed. For this we have to accept it even though it could be very hard for us bc now we are in the world where all humans have equal rights. It is also wrong for us to do against his rules bc there are very good reasons for him doing that. We are not at his level, so if we need to accept his teachings then we got to accepts his reasons on issues that he don't wish to discuss too" The Buddha was not a God. I think it would be a mistake not to realize that he was effected at times by his times. And I think it would be a further mistake not to allow Buddhism to grow. If you don't you have a spirituality that is no different from that of fundimentalist Christian or Islam. It is the heart of the Buddhas teaching that counts. Peace, David 17859 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mara No More What Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi do in the footnotes of this sutta, quite purposefully throwing its exact meaning into doubt and confusion--is a travesty. But it hasn't been the first time monks have pushed a personal agenda in the interpretation of suttas. Question: Why does this simple sutta have such extensive footnotes? Answer: Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi want it to mean what they want it to mean. It makes me smile to see such scrambling to change the meaning. You don't see that with other suttas, and much more complex suttas, do you? Metta, James I agree one has to be careful not to read the Suttas in order to support a pre-held view. Personally some of my greatest ah hasss have come from contemplating a Sutta which contradicted some notion I had about Buddhism. I have found the notes from the MLD to be very helpful, even if I disagree from time to time. I have read nothing from Bhikkhu Bodhi or about him that would lead to think that he would purposely try to mislead others about a translation or attempt to mislead others about a Sutta to push some personal agenda. Often in the MLD the notes go to the commentaries to help with the suttas, I dont think what is done within this Sutta is any different. Its seems to me that the notes from MLD support and are consistent with the notes found on the Access to Insight translation..... Ray 17860 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 9:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/17/02 3:56:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Group, > > 'Talking' with Buddhists of other traditions on the Internet, and > even 'listening' to those who see themselves as Theravada, it seems > to me Dualism/Non-Dualism is a confusion. > > My understanding of Non-Dualism is that it asserts that the ground of > being is One. All separations or dualities are formed symbolically by > Mind. I don't understand how this isn't just another way of ensuring > there is an eternal self, albeit a Super Self - the dew-drop slipping > into the shining sea. > > Does the Canon clarify what the Buddha taught in this respect? What > is the Theravada perspective? > > metta, > Christine > > ========================= I see the Dhamma as neither a species of dualism (or multiple-ism), nor of monism. Advaita Vedanta, which incorporates into its own name the Sanskrit term for 'nondual' is, as I see it, actually a species of monism, with Brahman/Atman being the one and only (unitary) reality, and all else being illusory. In some small corners of the eighteen original Buddhist schools there may have been dualist or multiple-ist views, seeing conditions as separate, self-existent things, and the Sarvastivadins tended towards a kind of monism with an eternalist flavor. There are tendencies of both sorts in Mahayana as well. But the core of both Theravada and Mahayana, as I understand them, and what I believe the Buddha taught, is a nonduality wherein there are many conditions, but interdependent and empty of own-being, existing, but as things-in-relation and not as things-in-and-of-themselves. Thus, in this view, nothing ever arises or ceases, nothing truly separate and self-sufficient, yet all the while, there is the ongoing flow of conditions - a dynamic, living reality. Seen under the dark cloud of avijja, this is samsara, but seen as it is, this is nibbana . This is how I view the matter. Of course I could be wrong! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17861 From: peterdac4298 Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:55pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhunis Hi Kenneth Apologies for using unskillful speech, no disrespect intended. I will endeavour to show better sense in the future. It seems to me that the Buddha's main concern was maintaining the credibility of the Sangha wrt the supporting lay communities. The Sangha had to be totally free from gossip or scandal if the monastic community were to be supported with alms on a regular and indefinite basis. I am sure you know, there is a Vinaya story behind the laying down of each rule. A reading of these stories will show that the Buddha, on numerous occasions responded to lay criticism very quickly and decisively. Probably the most famous case was when King Bimbisara wanted to bathe in the Ganges where Bhikkhus were already doing so, pacittiya 57:- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/bmc1/ch08- 6.html#57. This rule was introduce decisively so as to reassure lay concerns, and then latter adjusted as needed so as to make it practical for training in mindfulness and restraint. The case of the eight capital points for Bhikkhunis seems to be one where the Buddha anticipated lay concern, as indicated by his choice of respective analogies. Though the Buddha could well be thought of as doing the Bhikkhunis a service by giving them such difficult rules: they would be taken much more seriously by an otherwise skeptical society. Any person living in a community and accepting such constraints of behaviour must take their practice very seriously. Cheers Peter --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Peter > > "It's always > > possible the Buddha, being a mere mortal, had some kind of a blind > > spot and got this bit wrong!" > > Buddha does not have a blind spot and he has good reasons to do this. > He is a man of equality, he has reservation, then there must be very > good reason and not discounting that he could see things in the > future. As I said before, Buddha is not affected by any norms or > culture. > > I think it is not fair to judge his actions of him putting so much > rules on a Bhikkhunis and his actions seems to be of inequality. His > rules are not to be changed. For this we have to accept it even > though it could be very hard for us bc now we are in the world where > all humans have equal rights. It is also wrong for us to do against > his rules bc there are very good reasons for him doing that. We are > not at his level, so if we need to accept his teachings then we got > to accepts his reasons on issues that he don't wish to discuss too > much on. > > Certain norms set by him previously have been changed. The > consequences is very damaging to the Sangha world. Take for example > the acceptance of money rather than begging in the Chinese customs. > What was meant to suite cultural norms at that time but its initial > good intention has been corroded and has now becoming a maglinant > cancer. If my words are too strong, I am very sorry but this is a > truth I have observe. But what to do, even Buddha laws will > eventually disappear from this world. Solemn and disheartening but > this is the truth. > > > > rgds > KC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "peterdac4298 " > wrote: > Hi Christine, Sarah, and all > > > > In my previous post on this thread I used the > > expression "intimidating and demeaning" in brief reference to the > > original, historic Bhikkhuni Sangha, and how this was absent from > > the more democratic Amaravati style DSM Sangha of today. I feel I > > aught to expand this so as to avoid any misunderstanding. > > > > As most of us are aware, at the time of the Buddha, when Ananda > > thrice requested the admittance of women to the Sangha, the Buddha > > replied in what could be seen by todays standards as rather a > > derogatory, if not paranoid manner. > > > > He spoke about the Sasana lasting only half the time it originally > > would have. And also insisted on eight restrictions ('capital > > points', ~Naa.namoli) to be imposed on the nuns as a condition for > > their admittance. One of which was that a nun of advanced > > seniority > > would be junior to a monk newly admitted that very day. Another > > spoke of Bhikkhunis not being allowed to find fault with Bhikkhus > > nor admonish them at all. A Bhikkhuni must never address > > discourses > > to Bhikkhus, but Bhikkhus may address discourses to Bhikkhunis. In > > > > the matter of grave offences a Bhikkhuni must do penance before > > both > > Sanghas. Additionally to these eight capital points, a Bhikkhuni > > must be given the admission by both Sanghas (and is why the lineage > > > > could not be restored once broken: hence the need to find an > > unbroken branch elsewhere). > > > > The Buddha gave his reasons for insisting on these eight conditions > > > > of acceptance. He unflatteringly likened women in the Sangha to a > > rice field being infected by various kinds of fungus or mildew. A > > clan with too many women and too few men is vulnerable to robbers > > and bandits is likened to the Sangha with women admitted. "...As > > a > > man might construct in advance an embankment so that the waters of > > a > > great reservoir should not cause a flood, so I too have made known > > in advance these eight cardinal points..." (~Naa.namoli) > > > > Now this can't be explained as some kind of slip of the tongue, or > > even playing to contemporary sensibilities. These are powerful and > > > > systematic statements. What are we to make of them? The Buddha, > > having willingly recognised their equal ability to fully penetrate > > and realize the Dhamma, is more than creating an historic precedent > > > > by granting women the admission. This is virtual revolution by the > > > > standards of that time. But he goes to great lengths to ensure > > that > > there is no mistaking his view on female admission. It's always > > possible the Buddha, being a mere mortal, had some kind of a blind > > spot and got this bit wrong! > > > > Either way, the Amaravati DSM's evade this whole issue, and seem > > quite happy having equal rank with Bhikkhus even though it is only > > within the Amaravati Sangha. They enjoy the holy life, exhibit a > > mature understanding of the Dhamma and are much sought after for > > teaching engagements. > > > > Cheers > > Peter > > > > --- "christine_forsyth > > " wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, and all, > > > > > > You are correct - any discussion of this matter on this list, > > > particularly between you and I, has been respectfully conducted. > > > > > The rest is probably my subjective interpretation. Implacability, > > > > > though, has been evinced by people taking the 'the scriptures say > > > > > it's impossible to reinstate' line. e.g. > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15646 > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15653 > > > > > > Of great interest to me is this article which states: 'There is > > > permission in the Vinaya Chullavagga for monks to ordain nuns." > > > and, "the Bhikkhuni Sasana has been revived in Sri Lanka > > According > > > to full Theravada ceremonial." > > > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/nunorder.htm > > > > > > > > metta, > > > > > > Christine 17862 From: James Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mara No More --- "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > I agree one has to be careful not to read the Suttas in order to support a > pre-held view. Personally some of my greatest ah hasss have come from > contemplating a Sutta which contradicted some notion I had about Buddhism. > I have found the notes from the MLD to be very helpful, even if I disagree > from time to time. I have read nothing from Bhikkhu Bodhi or about him that > would lead to think that he would purposely try to mislead others about a > translation or attempt to mislead others about a Sutta to push some personal > agenda. Often in the MLD the notes go to the commentaries to help with the > suttas, I dont think what is done within this Sutta is any different. Its > seems to me that the notes from MLD support and are consistent with the > notes found on the Access to Insight translation..... Ray Ray and All, You know, I am getting pretty tired of the `non-put up or shut up attitude' in this group. I continue to make statements that members disagree with, those members ask me to support them, I do so with logic and evidence, and then I get a response like, `Oh, well, I just don't agree with that and that's the end of that. That is all the proof I need.' Excuse me? Is this a group of omniscient Buddhas and no one alerted me to that fact? Am I the only one who feels it necessary to think about, research, and support the dhamma in my statements and daily life? Am I the only one who knows that just because I think something it doesn't make it automatically correct and I need to have the support of evidence or accepted logic? Nothing I say is personal. I am not attacking the personal integrity of either of those monks in question. The simply have defilements…like the rest of us have defilements…like the Buddha had defilements. And now, everyone is trying to backtrack like crazy about earlier statements said in this regard because I have exposed the whole ugly truth that few want to face. These are the facts: The Lord Buddha was sexist and it took Ven. Ananda to talk some sense into him. At least he finally listened…more that most did before or after. But it doesn't chance the fact of the incidents that occurred. If anyone wants to state otherwise, I want some simple, straightforward logic or evidence to argue otherwise. I don't know why people continue to make statements and think that their word is proof enough. It isn't enough proof. Like arses, we all have opinions. As they say, "Put up or shut up". Metta, James 17863 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi, Christine, There are different senses of dualism; it's not "All-Oneism." There's another meaning that when one perceives something there should be just the perception, just the seeing or hearing or sensation, not the dualism of self and object, subject and predicate. This may be the very essence of the Dhamma (as in the advice to Bahiya) even within the Thera; it certainly seems to be close to the core of some other interpretations. (And mine ;-) metta, stephen Udana I.10: Bahiya Sutta 17864 From: nidive Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mara No More Hi James, > And now, everyone is trying to backtrack like crazy about earlier > statements said in this regard because I have exposed the whole > ugly truth that few want to face. These are the facts: The Lord > Buddha was sexist and it took Ven. Ananda to talk some sense into > him. At least he finally listened…more that most did before or > after. But it doesn't chance the fact of the incidents that > occurred. If anyone wants to state otherwise, I want some simple, > straightforward logic or evidence to argue otherwise. I don't > know why people continue to make statements and think that their > word is proof enough. It isn't enough proof. Like arses, we all > have opinions. As they say, "Put up or shut up". (1) How is being sexist a defilement? (2) How do you know that the Buddha was sexist? Or is that your own interpretation or perception of things? We are all aware that a certain act by a certain person can be interpreted in different ways by different people. There is no way we can verify that the Buddha was sexist. There is no way we can verify that there were other reasons besides 'being sexist' for the Buddha to not form a Bikkhuni Sangha. In my opinion, saying that the Buddha was sexist is merely a form of speculation, because none of us knows what was going on in his mind at that time. For me, to be on the cautious side, I would say there were other reasons besides 'being sexist'. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 17865 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Christine, When we were talking about conceit it occured to me that the end of conceit might be an end of a sense of being separate from others in terms of comparing oneself to others. Even if there is a feeling of equality that is still a kind of separation. So the compete end of any sense of self, either mine or yours, could be considered as nonduality. Larry 17866 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Hi Rob, I'm looking forward to continuing this discussion on ethics and science when you come back on-line. I don't see how you can separate the two, even in a non-buddhist context. Any reason to be ethical has to be ultimately grounded in science, I would think. I agree Buddhist science is a different kettle of fish, basically because it includes kamma, which is completely comprehensible only to the Buddha. However, he did very much insist on kamma. Citta process is a small step in the direction of beginning to explain kamma, imo. There is some question in my mind as to how citta process could be an object of satipatthana. Satipatthana being the only laboratory available for us junior scientists. But I'm adopting a wait and see attitude on that one. Larry 17867 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mara No More Ray and All, You know, I am getting pretty tired of the `non-put up or shut up attitude' in this group. I continue to make statements that members disagree with, those members ask me to support them, I do so with logic and evidence, and then I get a response like, `Oh, well, I just don't agree with that and that's the end of that. That is all the proof I need.' Excuse me? Is this a group of omniscient Buddhas and no one alerted me to that fact? Am I the only one who feels it necessary to think about, research, and support the dhamma in my statements and daily life? Am I the only one who knows that just because I think something it doesn't make it automatically correct and I need to have the support of evidence or accepted logic? I presented both evidence and logic to discuss the point you made. I understand that you accept neither as being on point. I am perfectly willing to continue to discuss the Sutta, but I see no reason for you to assume that you are "the only one who feels it necessary to think about, research, and support the dhamma in statements and in daily life." >>>Nothing I say is personal. I am not attacking the personal >>>integrity of either of those monks in question. The simply have >>>defilements.like the rest of us have defilements.like the Buddha had >>>defilements. Yes, they certainly have defilements, but that does not mean that their notes were put into their books to confuse people about the true meaning of any particular Sutta. In fact I think the notes are there to help avoid confusion. But lets forget about the notes, lets look at the Sutta itself. As I mention before in the paragraph which is one used to describe the knowledge of an Arhant, you will notice that the wording, "abandoned and relinquished [the defilements] in part'" is no longer used. It has been dropped because IMO it no longer applies because the paragraph now refers to the path of Arhantship. Here is the paragraph again.... "14. "When he knows and sees[15] in this way, his mind becomes liberated from the canker of sensual desire, liberated from the canker of becoming, liberated from the canker of ignorance.[16] When liberated, there is knowledge: 'It is liberated'; and he knows: 'Birth is exhausted, the life of purity has been lived, the task is done, there is no more of this to come.' Such a monk is called 'one bathed with the inner bathing."[17] " I think that if the Buddha wanted to say that there were still some defilements he would of said so in this paragraph. But the fact it is not there shows the path of Arhantship is different from what he was talking about above. This listing of successive attainments is done often in the Suttas. Often going from the first Jhana through to Arhantship. I think this sutta is another example of such a progression....Ray 17868 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 2:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi, Stephen (and Christine) - In a message dated 12/17/02 6:46:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, oreznoone@a... writes: > > Hi, Christine, > > There are different senses of dualism; it's not "All-Oneism." There's > another > meaning that when one perceives something there should be just the > perception, just the seeing or hearing or sensation, not the dualism of > self > and object, subject and predicate. This may be the very essence of the > Dhamma > (as in the advice to Bahiya) even within the Thera; it certainly seems to > be > close to the core of some other interpretations. > (And mine ;-) > metta, stephen > > Udana I.10: Bahiya Sutta > > ============================ I completely agree. The interdependence of subject and object is a central aspect of Buddhist nonduality which I failed to emphasize in my post on this thread. I think the Bahiya Sutta is one of the most important of the "philosophical suttas" - it is certainly one of my favorites along with the Kaccayanagotta Sutta and the Kalakarama Sutta, all of which express slightly differing aspects of Buddhist, middle-way nondualism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17869 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:20pm Subject: Commentaries are papanca-like? RobM: Hi Robert (and All); I don't see any conflict. Kamma / citta / utu / oja are what create rupa and consciousness is a necessary condition for rupa to arise. __________ Dear RobM, While some ruaps are conditioned by citta (consciousness) others, such as the rupas that make up rocks or trees are conditioned by utu, not citta. Hence, I believe Citta is not a necessary condition for all rupas to arise. ______________ RobM: I believe that "paramattha dhamma", another critical term in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, is also not found in the Suttas nor in the original seven volumes of the Abhidhamma. Citta-vithi, paramattha may have appeared in commentarial literature prior to Anuruddha, but my point is that they are not in the Tipitaka. ________________ RobertK: The commentaries explain and give more details than the original words of the Buddha. This is to help us - who are weak in understanding- to comprehend. I am not sure why you think that a word such as paramattha is misleading? _____________ RobM: So why did the Buddha deliver the Madhupindika Sutta? To show how papanca (conceptual proliferation) arises to cloud the mind. In his commentary to the Sutta above, Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains how papanca arises from a lack of understanding anatta. ___________________ RobertK: In the sutta link you give Thanissaro notes about papanca: "in Buddhist philosophical discourse it carries negative connotations, usually of falsification and distortion. The word itself is derived from a root that means diffuseness, spreading, proliferating. The Pali Commentaries define papañca as covering three types of thought: craving, conceit, and views. They also note that it functions to slow the mind down in its escape from samsara. "" This is a succint and good definition of papanca, and as the venerable Thanissaro says papanca does indeed result from not understanding anatta. ______________ RobM.: My suspicion is that, though the Tipitaka provides a complete ethical system, later thinkers did not find it "scientific" enough and felt the need to add a layer of "pseudo-science" (not unlike papanca) on top of the ethical base found in the Tipitaka. Citta- vithi, paramattha and a host of other ideas were later additions which were not taught by the Buddha because they are not essential to the Four Noble Truths, conducive to the holy life and leading one to Nibbana. One might also say that these mental proliferations act as a distraction, clouding the mind so that it is more difficult to focus on the ethical aspects of the Teaching. Our discussion on rupas falls into this category. The origin of rupas (kamma / citta / utu / oja) and the classification according to characteristic / function / manifestation / proximate cause does not appear in the Tipitaka. I believe that it first arises in Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga. In other words, it is part of the pseudo-scientific, papanca-like, commentarial literature. ____________________ RobertK: I think it is most useful to examine the actual dhammas that are arising while we study, contemplate, speak, or write about Dhamma. Is it not true that sometimes, when we read some suttas, that the cittas that are arising are rooted in confusion or attachment or doubt. It must be that way because the roots of moha, dosa and lobha have not been eradicated yet. But most people are not so hasty as to conclude that the suttas are productive of papanca. It is the same with the commentaries: if we read with attachment, with a subtle wanting , without awareness of the actual moment, then there cannot be any real understanding. In fact there will be the opposite. I have said several times how such works as the Visuddhimagga look very different to me now compared when I first took them up. They appear much more profound. Anyway there is never any compulsion to study what we don't like. We take it all patiently. As Ken O said: "Hence the first thing, what a Buddhist accomplish to the road of nibbana is to discard wrong views. Easy to say but hard to do. Just imagine Buddha took countless lives, that does not mean we should be discourage as one day you will also be one. At the meantime, relax and enjoy your life, do what we can and not what we cannot. :) Each one of us has their own accumulations. I personally never force myself to do anything"" RobertK 17870 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Foundation Bulletin,Dhamma Issues no 1 Foundation Bulletin, Dhamma Issues, no 1. Preface In the Board Meetings of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation different subjects of Dhamma are discussed. The sources which are used are the Tipitaka, the Commentaries and subcommentaries. These discussions are profound and also Pali experts contribute to them. The conclusions are published in booklets. Since I find this material important I like to make it available to a wider public. Therefore I have selected some of the topics of discussion and translated them from Thai into English. I have added in footnotes some explanations of the subjects under discussion for the sake of those who are not familiar with the terms used. Nina van Gorkom Chapter 1 Åyatanas The åyatanas, sometimes translated as bases or sense-fields are: six internal bases: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness (manåyatana), six external bases: which are six classes of objects: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and mind-object (dhammåyatana), comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna.(1) Issues of analysis: 1: Is the eyesense (the cakkhu pasåda rúpa) åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process (2 or only at the moment when seeing (cakkhuviññåùa) arises? And the same for the other sense-organs. 2. Is cetasika an internal åyatana or an external åyatana? 3. Is the cetasika which is the object, årammana, of citta, dhammårammana or dhammåyatana? The sources which support the conclusions of the analysis: 1. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², Sammohavinodaní, the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 2, Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), Suttanta Division. 2. Visuddhimagga, Ch XV, Description of the Bases and Elements. Conclusion regarding the first issue: In the five sense-door processes the eye-sense (cakkhu pasåda rúpa) etc. is åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process, not only at the moment seeing (cakkhuviññåna) arises. The reason for this conclusion is given by the ³Dispeller of Delusion², Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), and the Visuddhimagga (XV, 10). We read in the ³Visuddhimagga²: ³For only the åyatana of the eye-base is the door of arising, and only the åyatana of visible object is the object of the consciousness group (viññåna kåya) comprised in a cognitive series containing eye-consciousness.² (3 This shows that the rúpa of eyesense (cakkhuppasåda rúpa) is the eye-door and the åyatana of the eye (cakkhåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process and that evenso visible object is the åyatana of visible object (rúpåyatana) at each moment of citta in the eye-door process. The reason is that both the eye-sense and the visible object are realities which have not fallen away yet and that they are ³associating² at each moment of citta of the eye-door process (4 . Conclusion regarding the second issue: Cetasika must be an external åyatana and it cannot be an internal åyatana. The reason: Citta is an internal åyatana (manåyatana or mind-base), whereas cetasikas are different from citta, they are accompanying citta, and thus, they are external åyatanas (5. Conclusion regarding the third issue: the cetasikas which have fallen away and are the object (årammaùa) of citta are dhammårammaùa (mental object) 6 . The reason: the cetasika which has fallen away is only dhammårammaùa, it is not dhammåyatana. Since it has fallen away it cannot be associating with another reality. With regard to those who have ³penetrating knowledge of the mind of others² (ceto-pariya-ñåna, one of the supranatural powers), when the cetasika of someone else is the object, it is at that moment dhammårammana. **** Footnotes 1. I have added this explanation of the åyatanas, which is sometimes translated as base. However, åyatana has several meanings: dwelling place, birthplace or meeting place for citta and cetasikas; ³mine² (åkara) or place of production, and cause or reason (karana). Åyatana implies association of dhammas. 2. When visible object impinges on the eyesense there is not only seeing which experiences it, but also other cittas arising in a process which experience visible object through the eye-door while they perform their own function. It is the same in the case of the other other sense-door processes. 3. The ³Visuddhimagga² ( XV, 9) gives the reason why there are just as many as twelve åyatanas. It states: ³It is for the sake of defining door-cum-object for the arising of the six consciousness groups. And here they are stated as twelve since this is how they are classed when so defined.² That is why the word²only² is used in ³for only the åyatana of the eye is the door of arising, and only the åyatana of visible object is the object², namely, for the cognitive series containing eye-consciousness. It is the same in the case of the other processes, thus, there are twelve åyatanas. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², 46, uses a similar wording. 4. Rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, thus, the sense-organ and the object on which sense-door process cittas depend are still present during that process. 5. Citta has as function clearly to know an object, it is the leader in knowing an object. The cetasikas which arise and accompany citta each perform their own function, they are entirely different from citta. 5. There are six classes of objects: five classes of the five sense objects and the sixth class which is dhammårammana. Dhammårammana can be experienced only through the mind-door; it includes: the five sense-organs, the subtle rúpas, citta, cetasika, nibbåna and concepts. ***** My own remarks: the ayatanas are dhammas arising at this moment. The conclusion above reminds us that ayatanas are the association or meeting of object, sense-organ and citta during a sense-door process of cittas, so that objects can be experienced through the different doorways. Nina. 17871 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Do brahmas experience vipaka? op 17-12-2002 14:57 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > Since brahmas have no five senses, does this mean they don't > experience vipaka of any kind? If not, how do they experience vipaka? >Nina: vipaka citta can arise independedly of the senses: it can experience an object through the mind-door. In this plane the tadarammana cittas, retention, arising after the javanas of the mind-door process. In the arupa brahma planes, the rebirth-consciousness and the bhavanga-cittas are vipakacittas, results of arupavacara kusala cittas. I hope this clarifies somewhat I just saw Kom's answer, I join him. Nina. 17872 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of citta also in Abhidhamma. Dear Rob M, I hope you have a nice time in Beijing. Vacation? Just a remark about citta processes and Abhidhamma: you wrote: op 16-12-2002 23:17 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > The citta-process (17 cittas in a row) was never laid down by the > Buddha in the Suttas. The citta-process is not even in the seven > volumes of the Abhidhamma. In other words, the citta-process is not > part of the Tipitaka. According to Nyanatiloka (Buddhist Dictionary - > Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines - Appendix), "citta-vithi, > as well as all terms for the various functions within the processes > of consciousness, such as avajjana-citta, sampaticchana, santirana, > votthapana, javana, tadarammana, bhavanga, cuti: none of these terms > is found in the Sutta Canon. except javana, in Pts.M. Even in the > Ahh. Canon (e.g. Patth) only javana and bhavanga are twice or thrice > briefly mentioned. The stages, however, must have been more or less > known." Nina: I wrote to you and Jon before about the processes of citta in the Abhidhamma, and quote again: the Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Knowledge,Ch XVII, Behaviour, Cariyaa, under behaviour of consciousness. Cittas are classified as dhatus, elements. Here they are explained as directing onto the object, but we have to keep in mind that such moments are extremely fast. We see here the name of adverting, but we do not see the names of receiving and investigating, they are just two more moments of vipaka after seeing, they just experience visible object and then they are gone immediately. Then we read about the other sense-door processes and then about , kiriyacitta which is mind-door adverting citta, and also resultant mind-principle . This is vipakacitta in the mind-door process, later on named tadarammana-citta. Now about the javanas, named here as such: What is behaviour of unknowing (a~naa.na caariya): The same of hate, delusion and other akusala cetasikas. And also with regard to the other sense objects and mental object. It is interesting that here is stressed akusala as behaviour of ignorance. And about behaviour of knowledge, panna, functional indeterminate adverting for the purpose of contemplating impermanence, the contemplation of impermanence is a behaviour of knowledge. Here are the stages of insight mentioned, up to the stages of enlightenment. You see, the nucleus of the process is there. It does not matter that names are different, they have their own place in the order of the process, which is citta niyama: certainty, definiteness. It is like a natural law. It could not be altered, it is amazing when we come to think of it. How do cittas know? They cannot do otherwise but follow this way, viithi. The Path of Discrimination is Part of the Khuddaka Nikaya, thus of the Suttanta. As to the Abhidhamma, the first Book, Dhsg, enumerates cittas arising in different processes. The Vibhanga, the Book of Analysis, under Analysis of Elements, refers to the processes. So does the Patthana, Conditional Relations, under: contiguity-condition, anantara paccaya. As to the Commentaries, Buddhagosa did not give his own ideas, his explanations were firmly based on the Tipitaka. As to the names, cittas are classified as dhatus, mind element, mind-consciousness element, etc. Hoping that this clarifies, best wishes, Nina. 17873 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:49pm Subject: subtle points Subtle points: Dear friends, I am starting a new series, a translation of the Foundation Bulletin. Subtle points of Dhamma are discussed here and some of you might be interested. I translate this material as it is, and I realize that it may be too detailed and compact for some of you. Please, do not read it then. We have different corners here for people with different inclinations, and that makes dsg interesting. Nina. 17874 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:55pm Subject: Way 27, Comm Welcome back Nina and greetings all, For those new to the group this is the continuation of a study thread on the Satipatthana Sutta, using Soma Thera's "Way of Mindfulness" which is Soma Thera's translation of Bh. Buddhaghosa's Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta and excerpts from Dhammapala Thera's Tika (subcommentary). The book is available on-line at the link below and a print copy is available from BPS. We are now near the end of The Section of the Synopsis. I will post approximately one page three times a week unless we get involved in an extended discussion. All are invited to participate. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Vedanasu Vedananupassi... citte cittanupassi... dhammesu dhammanupassi viharati = "He lives contemplating feeling in the feelings... the consciousness in consciousness... mental object in mental objects." Here the repetition of "feelings", "consciousness" and "mental objects" should be understood according to the reasons given for the repetition of the word "body" in body-contemplation. "Feeling" = The three feelings: pleasurable, painful and the neither pleasurable nor painful. These are only mundane. [Tika] The word "feelings" is repeated to limit (or unambiguously determine) the object by isolating it [anissato vavatthanam], for the analysis of the apparently compact [ghana vinibbhoga] and for such other purposes, in order to prevent any straying from the contemplation on feelings to some other object. Erratic contemplation takes place because of the connection of the other non-material aggregates with feelings, and because of the dependence of non-material things like feelings on material form in the five-constituent-existence [pañca vokara bhava] or the sensuous plane of becoming [kama bhava]. [T] By the repetition of the word, the limiting of the object by isolating it, is shown through the pointing out of only a doer of feeling-contemplation in the property called feeling, as there is no contemplating of the body, or consciousness or mental objects in feeling but only the contemplating of feeling. [T] As, in this matter of feeling, when a pleasurable feeling occurs, there is no occurrence of the other two, and when a painful feeling or a neither pleasurable nor painful feeling occurs, there is no occurrence of the remaining ones, so is shown the analysis (sifting out or penetration or dissection) of the apparently compact, the absence of permanence (or stability), by the pointing out of different feelings, after penetrating them severally, and not having spoken of the state of feeling in a general way. [T] Through the noticing of feelings as lasting just for the measure of a moment in time, the seeing of impermanence is made clear. Through the same cognizance, suffering and soullessness too are seen. [T] "For the analysis of the apparently compact and for such other purposes." By the words, "And for such other purposes," the following should be understood: "This yogavacara (the Buddha's disciple who is endeavoring for spiritual insight) contemplates just feelings and not any other thing, because he is not one who contemplates by way of the lovely (the good or the desirable), after the manner of a fool who sees a gem in a bubble of water which has not the quality of a gem. He does not see in this foolish way even in the stable instant when he experiences a pleasant feeling. Much more so does he not stray away into fanciful thinking in regard to the two remaining feelings of pain and indifference. On the other hand, he contemplates along the real way of impermanence, soullessness, and the unlovely, by way of momentary dissolution, lack of power to control (sway or rule), and the trickling of the dirt of defilement, and distinctively contemplates suffering, as the pain of vicissitude, and of the formations or the constituents of life. 17875 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualism/Non-Dualism In a message dated 12/17/2002 12:56:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > 'Talking' with Buddhists of other traditions on the Internet, and > even 'listening' to those who see themselves as Theravada, it seems > to me Dualism/Non-Dualism is a confusion. > > My understanding of Non-Dualism is that it asserts that the ground of > being is One. All separations or dualities are formed symbolically by > Mind. I don't understand how this isn't just another way of ensuring > there is an eternal self, albeit a Super Self - the dew-drop slipping > into the shining sea. > > Does the Canon clarify what the Buddha taught in this respect? What > is the Theravada perspective? > > metta, > Christine > Hi Christine I think this is an excellent observation you have made. The issue of dualism scarcely appears in the suttas. I believe there is one or maybe two suttas that deal primarily with that topic and in a very different manner than it is dealt with in later Buddhism. The gist of the "sutta dualism" runs:-- Owing to a dual thing, consciousness comes into being. Owing to eye and forms, eye consciousness comes into being. Owing to ear and sounds, ear consciousness comes into being...etc., for the other four sense bases, objects, and consciousness'. There are a couple of suttas that talk directly about... the ending of all conceivings. These, however, do not describe such states in terms of "non-dualism." Nagarjuna's dialectical criticism may be largely responsible for dualism attaining a significant status in later Buddhism...and a different slant on the idea. But Nagarjuna's teaching, to the best of my recollection, would not have supported any notion of "Oneness" or Super-self. I think those notions are the result of a self view-pointed mind grappling with the notion of non-dualism. TG 17876 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 9:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Foundation Bulletin,Dhamma Issues no 1 Hi Nina, I wonder about this: "Conclusion regarding the second issue: Cetasika must be an external åyatana and it cannot be an internal åyatana. The reason: Citta is an internal åyatana (manåyatana or mind-base), whereas cetasikas are different from citta, they are accompanying citta, and thus, they are external åyatanas" I thought external meant object but a cetasika accompanying a citta isn't the object of that citta, is it? Larry 17877 From: Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:16pm Subject: Re: Dukkha as Flaw (A Pep Talk! ;-) Hello Howard, I think we're very much in agreement, yet I can't quite follow part of your reasoning; or perhaps I just wish to push it further. You begin: >All conditions/formations are flawed. They are imperfect in that >they are, none of them, of the nature to satisfy. If they are not inherently flawed, why not? The problem would seem to be inherent to desire in that case. But perhaps only desire based on belief in a Self (moha), which leads to dosa and lobha, not all desiring. So water, for instance, can satisfy a thirst. Does an enlightened person live in a neutral world? *Mere* phenomena rolling on? It is, perhaps, only within the Theravada that conditions are seen as intrinsically unsatisfying (dukkha) and nibbana is completely outside of the world, requiring its extinction for true happiness. All (?) other forms of Buddhism equate samsara with nibbana and say that to an enlightened person the world is not flawed, but utterly perfect in its suchness. In some sense, at least, ultimately satisfying. I'd say that, but I rather doubt you would ;-) So I fear we've left our agreement behind; but just where? metta, stephen 17878 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Dear KC, Peter & All, I’ve appreciated your comments and the quotes from the Vinaya which Nanamoli gives in ‘The Life of the Buddha’. I’ve always liked this book because it is full of useful quotes. You’ve encouraged me to pull it and other Vinaya texts out. Peter wrote: “It seems to me that the Buddha's main concern was maintaining the credibility of the Sangha wrt the supporting lay communities. The Sangha had to be totally free from gossip or scandal if the monastic community were to be supported with alms on a regular and indefinite basis. I am sure you know, there is a Vinaya story behind the laying down of each rule. A reading of these stories will show that the Buddha, on numerous occasions responded to lay criticism very quickly and decisively.” ..... I agree. As you showed with the example of the monastery in Scotland, not only lay support, but confidence in the teachings can very easily be adversely affected. When I read the Vinaya, I read about human nature - lay human nature and also that of bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. Circumstances affecting the behaviour of those who have ordained are also emphasised. ..... I agree with all KC’s points and in particular those regarding any supposed ‘blind spot’ of the Buddha. Even Ananda couldn’t appreciate the full wisdom of the Buddha or his omniscient knowledge about human behaviour. Who are we to put those aspects of his teachings which we don’t comprehend down to ‘blind spots’? ..... KC wrote: > Buddha does not have a blind spot and he has good reasons to do this. > He is a man of equality, he has reservation, then there must be very > good reason and not discounting that he could see things in the > future. As I said before, Buddha is not affected by any norms or > culture. > > I think it is not fair to judge his actions of him putting so much > rules on a Bhikkhunis and his actions seems to be of inequality. ” .... In Cullavagga X1, Bk of Discipline V (PTS p.399) we read: “Then the Venerable Kassapa the Great informed the Order, saying: “your reverences, let the Order listen to me. There are rules of training for us which affect householders, and householders know concerning us: ‘This is certainly allowable for the recluses, sons of the Sakyans, this is certainly not allowable.’ If we were to abolish the lesser and minor rules of training there would be those who would say: ‘At that time of his cremation a rule of training had been laid down by the recluse Gotama for disciples; while the Teacher was amongst them these trained themselves in the rules of training, but since the Teacher has attained nibbana among them, they do not now train themselves in the rules of training.’ if it seems right to the Order, the Order should not lay down what has not been laid down, nor should it abolish what has been laid down. It should proceed in conformity with and according to the rules of training that have been laid down...” ***** As Peter related, the Buddha only very reluctantly admitted women to the Order after Pajapati accepted eight rules for ordination. These include: - “A nun who has been ordained (even) for a century must greet respectfully, rise up form her seat, salute with joined palms, do proper homage to a monk ordained but that day. And this rule is to be honoured, respected, revered, venerated, never to be transgressed during her life.” - “When, as a probationer, she has trained in the six rules for two years, she should sek ordination from both Orders. This rule is to be.....” - “From today admonition of monks by nuns is forbidden, admonition of nuns by monks is not forbidden. This rule too is to be honoured, respected, revered, venerated, never to be transgressed during her life.” ***** As Peter also mentioned, the Buddha explains a little more on why the dhamma will last half as long as a result of the bhikkhuni order and the reasons for the extra 8 rules: “Even, Ananda, as those households which have many women and few men easily fall a prey to robbers, to pot-thieves, even so, Ananda in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth from home into homelessness, that Brahma-faring will not last long.... “Even, Ananda, as when the disease known as mildew attacks a whole field that field of rice does not last long.... “Even, Ananda, as when the disease known as red rust attacks a whole field of sugar-cane, the field of sugar-cane does not last long... “Even, Ananda, as a man, looking forward, may build a dyke to a great reservoir so that the water may not overflow, even so, Ananda, were the eight important rules for nuns laid down by me, looking forward, not to be transgressed during their life.” ***** We read about further discussions, reasons, stories related to these rules and others. Pajapati asks if the Buddha would allow ‘greeting, standing up for, salutation and the proper duties between monks and nuns according to seniority.” He replies that this is impossible and furthermore replies: “Monks, one should not carry out greeting, rising up for salutation and proper duties towards women. Whoever should carry out(one of these), there is an offence of wrong-doing.” The Buddha then continues to teach Pajapati the dhamma so that she may live “alone, aloof, zealous, ardent, self-resolute.” The same chapter X in the Cullavagga continues to give accounts of the Discipline and way of living of the bhikkhuni and the stories leading to the reasons for how the Patimokkha should be recited, how ‘formal acts’ should be carried out, the relationship between bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, penalties, support by lay people and gossip, ordination procedures, seating, use of toiletries, pregnant nuns ordained and much more. All aspects of the daily life of the bhikkhunis are covered and reasons and examples are given for all aspects of the discipline. I don’t pretend to understand all the reasons for all the Buddha’s decisions, but certainly by reading and considering more from the texts I’ve always come to have more and more confidence in those aspects which may not seem ‘logical’ to us. I don’t see any difference either in human nature as we read in these accounts, then and now. It also seems women were just as concerned about ‘equality’ issues and access to the dhamma, of course. Sarah ======= 17879 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 0:54am Subject: Vinaya 1 Dear All, There was some discussion before about how much of the Vinaya (in English) was on line. As far as I know, part or all of the ‘Vinaya Texts’ (Sacred Bks of the East series) but none of the’Book of Discipline’ (PTS series ) is on line. Let me give more detail which I found helpful and it may be relevant for other threads to avoid any confusion: The ‘Vinaya Texts’ was produced in the 1880s in 3 volumes and is a partial translation by Oldenberg and Rhys Davids of the Vinaya. Peter gave some links before, but this is one: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe13/ The ‘Book of Discipline’ (Vinaya Pitaka) is a translation by I.B.Horner to bring ‘the Vinaya into line’ as ‘a complete, as against partial translation into English’ starting in the 1930s. None of it is on line that I know of. Not only the extent of translation is quite different but also the order and other aspects which confused me when I was looking at links before: Quotes from the introduction to Book of Discipline by I.B.Horner: “Oldenberg began his edition of the text of the Vinaya Pitaka with the section known as the Mahavagga. This together with the Culavagga to which he proceeded, constitutes the Khandhakas. He placed the Suttavihbanga after these, and ended with the admittedly later Parivara. But properly speaking, the Pali Vinaya begins with the Suttavibhanga...... “According to Rhys Davids and Oldenberg, the oldest portion of the Vinaya is the Patimokkha, or list of 227 rules, or courses of training to be observed. As this seems to be indisputably the case, it is only fitting that the Suttavibhanga should preceed the Khandhakas. For the Suttavibhanga is that portion of the Vinaya which contains the Patimokkha. “In their Vinaya Texts, Rhys Davids and Oldenberg open with the Patimokkha. Buddhaghosa in his Commentary, the Samantapasadika, begins with the Suttavibhanga in extenso. I therefore follow the same plan, and mention it chiefly to indicate that my Vol 1 does not correspond to Oldenberg’s vol 1....... “The chief difference between the presentation of the Suttavibhanga in Vinaya Texts and The Book of the Discipline is that, in the former the Suttavibhanga is cut down to comprise nothing more than the Patimokkha rules themselves, all auxiliary material being omitted, while the latter, when finished, will contain, with very few exceptions, an unabridged translation of the entire Suttavibhanga. The Vinaya, the Discipline, especially that portion of it called Suttavibhanga, appoints and decrees a definite standard of outward morality, comprised in courses of training laid down for the proper behaviour of monks and nuns. On the surface the Suttavibhanga is not much more than an attempt to restrain unsuitable behaviour; but in reality it also arrives, though in many cases by a long process of exclusion, the kind of positive conduct to be pursued by the monk who wishes his life to be externally blameless, so far as his relations with his fellow monks, with the Order as a whole, and with the laity are concerned....... “The word Suttavibhanga means analysis or classification (vibhanga) of a sutta, a term here applied to each rule or course of training included in the Patimokkha. The literal meaning of sutta (sutra) is of course string or thread, and as such also appears in the Vinaya...” ***** The next parts I’ve marked are concerned with an introduction to the 227 rules. I’ll try to add further quotes another time. Sarah ====== 17880 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi David " The Buddha was not a God. I think it would be a mistake not to > realize that he was effected at times by his times. And I think it > would be a further mistake not to allow Buddhism to grow. If you > don't you have a spirituality that is no different from that of > fundimentalist Christian or Islam. It is the heart of the Buddhas > teaching that counts." These rules are not set by any venerables but by Buddha himself and furthermore if my memory did not fail me. It is the VEN Mahakasayapa who leads the first council of the Sangha who said that the rules are all to be followed. Buddhis is growing on which direction??? Is it on the direction of human inclination and social norm that influence on Buddhism. When Buddha set rules, it meant to past beyond time and space. I dont even treat Buddhism as a religion and how much less I think Buddha is a god. I treat him with great respect like a teacher. If we wish to change any rule, then we must be qualify, to be at least an Arahant bc we do not know the implication of such a change. If not, the closest we have are the three treasures and the rules set on it. This is hard to sallow bc human norms are that we should suit things, we should be dynamic to changes so that Buddhism can grow. If Buddhism will to grow on the expense of the original teaching, I would rather see it being dissolve from this Samasara world. It pains me when our influence is more influential on Buddhism rather than Buddhism on us. kind regards KC 17881 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Foundation Bulletin,Dhamma Issues no 1 Nina Thanks very much for making this material available. I can see it's going to cover some very interesting points. I can also see it's going to need time to take in! Jon PS I agree with your comments in an earlier post, that for some these very detailed points will have no appeal, and they should just skip it. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Foundation Bulletin, > Dhamma Issues, no 1. > > Preface > > In the Board Meetings of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation > different > subjects of Dhamma are discussed. The sources which are used are > the > Tipitaka, the Commentaries and subcommentaries. These discussions > are > profound and also Pali experts contribute to them. The conclusions > are > published in booklets. > Since I find this material important I like to make it available to > a wider > public. Therefore I have selected some of the topics of discussion > and > translated them from Thai into English. > I have added in footnotes some explanations of the subjects under > discussion > for the sake of those who are not familiar with the terms used. > > Nina van Gorkom 17882 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi Peter, (James and all) I dont think you said any unskill speech, there is no need for apology. In my opinion, you are brave by sharing your opinion with the group here. Some of us here talk a bit seriously at times and jokingly at times. Some like detail analysis and investigation, hence gives an impression that they are scholars and not doers. Some like to talk about Buddhist practise. Some like to discuss the same topics for many months. Hence some will find it dry and others will, find pple like me who is not good at explanation very assertive. This what made this group so interesting, this is a place where pple share their opinion in Buddhism freely which includes the experiences in practise that they have encountered. As Christmas is coming, I like to use this opportunity to thanks the moderators, Sarah and Jon for their execellent work in moderating this group, who provide a conducive environment for us to learn and share. Also not forgetting pple who contributes their opinion and sharing their knowledge freely and willingly, pple like Nina, Kom, Howard, Christine, Larry,Ken H, Stephen and not to forget the Roberts (by the way where are the other two Roberts(Ep and K). And also to all the pple here, a merry Christmas and a very happy New Year and enjoy the holidays as it is the time of giving :)Cheers Also to new pple that I just come across like James, Peter and David Wait, one last person, the "serious" and intellectual Suan who seems to disappear kind rgds KC P.S. Sorry if I miss out anyone --- "peterdac4298 " wrote: > Hi Kenneth > > Apologies for using unskillful speech, no disrespect intended. I > will endeavour to show better sense in the future. 17883 From: nidive Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of citta also in Abhidhamma. Dear Nina, > You see, the nucleus of the process is there. It does not matter > that names are different, they have their own place in the order > of the process, which is citta niyama: certainty, definiteness. It > is like a natural law. It could not be altered, it is amazing when > we come to think of it. Thank you for your message. I had read robmoult's message about the 'process' being not described in the Abhidhamma. Not being an expert in the Abhidhamma, I was pretty confused by that message. I thought that robmoult was such an expert, and took his word for it, and became confused. Thank you for clarifying that. NEO Swee Boon 17884 From: azita gill Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] subtle points [and a little note for James] --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Subtle points: > Dear friends, > I am starting a new series, a translation of the > Foundation Bulletin. dearest Nina, your energy and skills astound me. I find it hard to get out of bed somedays!!! it was wonderful seeing you and Lodewick in Bkk. and of course all the others also. on my last full day in Bkk., I lunched with Sukin, Num [who both kindly paid for our delicious food], Rob, Betty, Ivan, Elle,and Pina. After lunch, Rob had the great idea to hire the executive room on the 27th. floor for the next 1-2 hours for more dhamma discussion. I can't remember all we talked about [I really need to write things down}, but I recall all of us standing at the very large window looking out over Bkk. and debating whether it was intrinsically a pleasant or unpleasant visible object. It became very clear to me, that it is of no use trying to decide whether somethings pleasant/unpleasant bec. that object has fallen away already, what's more important is our Kusala/Akusala reactions to the object. BTW, when I write the word 'object' I can almost hear the way you say it. I'm beginning to see also why Khanti can be a parami; A.Sujin often speaks of patience and how important it is. Patience , courage and good cheer [which means laughing yer head off, James, we aren't 'saints' yet, and you haven't met Ivan, he'll make you laugh] > Azita. > 17885 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Christine, Dualism arise bc there is attachment, when there is attachment there is grasping, then to becoming then to birth....suffering Then what is the cause of dualism, it lobha(attachment), and the cause of lobha is moha. That is why there is the logic of Non dualism, to me it can be equate as panna . How to get it, you know them already (the four noble truth, Eight Noble Path) :) I hope this helps Cheers and rgds KC --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > 'Talking' with Buddhists of other traditions on the Internet, and > even 'listening' to those who see themselves as Theravada, it seems > > to me Dualism/Non-Dualism is a confusion. > > My understanding of Non-Dualism is that it asserts that the ground > of > being is One. All separations or dualities are formed symbolically > by > Mind. I don't understand how this isn't just another way of > ensuring > there is an eternal self, albeit a Super Self - the dew-drop > slipping > into the shining sea. > > Does the Canon clarify what the Buddha taught in this respect? > What > is the Theravada perspective? > > metta, > Christine 17887 From: chase8383 Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 7:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi KC First, thank you for your response. You said: "If we wish to change any rule, then we must be qualify, to be at least an Arahant bc we do not know the implication of such a change. If not, the closest we have are the three treasures and the rules set on it. This is hard to sallow bc human norms are that we should suit things, we should be dynamic to changes so that Buddhism can grow. If Buddhism will to grow on the expense of the original teaching, I would rather see it being dissolve from this Samasara world. It pains me when our influence is more influential on Buddhism rather than Buddhism on us." Ok, there is lot here. This is a huge topic and I don't pretend to have the answers. I can reply in a manner that reflects my experiences with Buddhism though, which is all any of us can do. I say that because Buddhism is above all else, experiential. Buddhism is not about the rules, or the words, set forth by the Buddha. It is not about form. It isn't even about the Buddha himself. It is about mind. It is about the training of the mind, through means. The rules and teachings are the means, but they are not the mind itself. They reside outside the mind. They are rafts used to cross certain streams or rivers. Once you have crossed those rivers, or streams, they are to be left for others to use, and not carried on your back as you continue down the path. Some of the rivers that were present during the Buddha's time and place are not like the rivers we have to cross today. Some of the Buddha's rafts are specially designed to carry you across the rivers he meet on his trek. When we pick up one of the Buddha's rafts, we should test it, to see if it will carry us across the river we are facing. Or to see if it is a raft left for a different river. The Buddha's greatness lay in the fact that by testing over and over again himself, he found the raft that will carry us across the ocean of samsara. That is the raft we should use most often. We shouldn't confuse the rafts he built for the tributaries leading to and from the ocean, for the raft he built to carry us across that ocean. With the utmost respect, David 17888 From: nidive Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Do brahmas experience vipaka? Dear Nina, Thank you for your explanation. Can you also explain why, according to the Abhidhamma, is it that a sotapanna has only at most 7 remaining rebirths? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 17889 From: nidive Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:32am Subject: Music produces mental feelings. Why? Dear Everybody, Why does music produce mental feelings? Even though what I hear is a sound at a time, yet when many sounds at a time conjoin together in some musical fashion, there arises pleasant mental feelings; there arises imagination... For example, I am now listening to Kitaro's Silk Road Fantasy. Why does this piece of music conjures up a feeling of "ancient", of "time long past"...? For example, I am now listening to Tchaikovsky's Chinese Dance. Why does this piece of music conjures up a feeling of "comedy"...? For example, I am now listening to Kitaro's Koi. Why does this piece of music conjures up a feeling of "love"...? Why are sounds so powerful to bring out mental feelings? I do not discern the cause of these pleasant mental feelings, even though I know I am only hearing one sound at a time that will not make sense if taken apart from the rest. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 17890 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 10:18am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience,no 3 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience,no 3 There can be patience even with regard to uttering useless speech. Before we are going to speak we should consider whether what we want to say is beneficial or not. If it is not beneficial there should be patience and we should refrain from that speech, because it is not helpful for anybody. Sati-sampajañña performs its function in such matters and we should investigate whether it has further developed. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Miscellaneous Sayings): The perfection of patience should be considered next: Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue. It is the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe; the strength of recluses and brahmins; a stream of water extinguishing the fire of anger; the basis for acquiring a good reputation; a mantra for quelling the poisonous speech of evil people; the supreme source of constancy in those established in restraint. Patience is an ocean on account of its depth; a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery; a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahmas; the ground for the habitation of all noble qualities; the supreme purification of body, speech and mind. As we read, patience is ³the unimpeded weapon of the good²: akusala can be destroyed when one is righteous. When there is patience there is no disturbance, because khanti, patience, cannot harm righteous people. ³Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue², as we read. If we are able to be patient, anger cannot arise, there cannot be wrong speech, not even the slightest amount. We shall not utter angry words.As we read, patience is ³the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe.² We may well adorn ourselves profusely with things that beautify, but if our action and speech are evil, we are not beautiful. The absence of anger, patience, is the adornment of those capable of conquering others; with this kind of adornment one is beautiful and does not need other kinds of adornment. However, if there is no patience, one¹s action and speech are ugly. Patience is ³the strength of recluses and brahmins². It is the attainment of strength (bala sampadå) of the tranquil person. A tranquil or calm person does not have any disturbance or trouble with regard to anybody, and thus calm which is freedom from akusala is the strength of recluses and brahmins. Patience is ³a stream of water extinguishing the fire of anger.² If we are angry, anger can be overcome by the perfection of patience. At such a moment we accumulate conditions to refrain more easily from akusala, and this can become our natural habit. Patience is ³the basis for acquiring a good reputation, a mantra for quelling the poisonous speech of evil people.² When we are angry and we utter evil speech, we ourselves are evil people. Whoever utters evil speech is an evil person. Patience is a mantra, a medicin against poison, namely speech of an evil person. Patience is ³the supreme source of constancy in those established in restraint.² Patience is the nature of those with supreme paññå. In order to develop paññå it is necessary to have endless patience: patience to listen to the Dhamma and to consider it in all details so as to understand the deep meaning of the teachings and their benefit. In that way we shall know that listening is not enough, that we should also apply the teachings. If someone wishes to have paññå he should first of all have endurance and accumulate the perfection of patience. ³Patience is an ocean on account of its depth.² Patience is profound. Akusala arises more often than kusala. When sati-sampajañña arises, someone realizes the moment of akusala citta, and he has patience to refrain from it, be it lobha, dosa, jealousy, avarice or conceit. This shows that patience is profound. If someone has no understanding, he cannot develop the perfection of patience. The perfection of patience and sati-sampajañña are very subtle and refined, they are conditions for refraining from akusala. Patience is ³a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery.² Many people are afraid of unhappy planes and they perform kusala so that they will not be born there. However, if one does not want to be reborn in an unhappy plane, he should be patient and refrain from akusala, because patience is ³a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery.² Patience is ³a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahmas; the ground for the habitation of all noble qualities; the supreme purification of body, speech and mind.² We should consider again and again whether we have further developed patience in each situation of our life. When we train ourselves often in good qualities, sobhana cetasikas, when we develop them, they can become our nature. Some people are by nature more patient than others, and this shows that they have developed patience. 17891 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 10:18am Subject: Bhaddekaratta sutta Dear Christine, thank you for putting up this sutta, I have a lot to consider, especially as regards the moment which is just past and to which we cling. A. Sujin referred to this sutta at our first session in Kraeng Kacang. I may use it later on. Nina. 17892 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi David Yes, you are correct to say that Buddhism is experiential, it is very personal, it grows and nurture as an individual nurture. It gives you control of your life. It gives you freedom. That whats make Buddhism apart and attractive and at times I would say "seductive". Buddhism is about training of the mind. In fact most philisophy and religion talks about training of mind to a certain extent. However, Buddhism has rules, it needed to define certain paradigm to suit its practise, its support for the 4 Noble Truth. Without these rules pple will either do what they think its correct or be confused on what is the training of the mind. We cannot suit rules to our whim and fancy, or not teaching will be modify and again modify down the generations and the original intention will be lost. And that is how I believe Buddhism is going to disappear from the earth and it has already started since the early 1900s where pple make their own rules and interpretation of what is Buddhism. Just imagine that now there are some monks in Singapore are getting paid being monks. This is not rumour, this is a fact. Some even drive better cars than the ordinary citizens. Pple always base it on the pretext that it is the donation from the lay pple. So are the rules being bend to suit individual or the rules that monks should not have any possession other than the robes and bowls that they needed applies. Rules are set by Buddha for very good reasons. Rules are not meant to be broken or bend, if it does, that is what happening to Buddhism now. Becoming very superstitious rather than an institution of education on the way of life. (no offence to any venerables here) I like rafts and I like the ocean more. These rafts are based on foundation of wood, nails etc. The wood, nails are like rules, methods, concepts of Buddhism. Just like paddling the raft, there are rules or ways to do it, or not we are wasting our energy trying to get across. We can take many test to go to the other side, but Buddha has already tested many times and informs us the method and rules that best suit us (Eight Noble Path). The gist is why waste energy to test on our own, why reinvent the wheel? Furthermore, many great venerables have tested the Eight Noble Path and find their way across. kind rgds KC 17893 From: Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 27, Comm Hi all, I think this section again states that we should experience each of the four main objects of satipatthana (body, feeling, consciousness, and dhammas) as separate distinct phenomena and most importantly notice that they are anicca, dukkha, anatta. I have found that in my rush to judgement I often overlook the feeling of vipaka and concentrate on the like, dislke, don't know etc. of javana. Like, dislike, don't know and their opposites are not feelings but the feelings of pleasant, unpleasant, neutral are associated with them. Beauty and ugliness, for example, are equivalent to like and dislike and are associated with pleasant and unpleasant feeling. The actual visual consciousness is resultant (vipaka) and is associated with neutral feeling. One could experience feeling as something in itself and notice that it is impermanent, undesirable, and not self. Likewise with the consciousnesses of like, dislike etc. In the sentence: "By the repetition of the word, the limiting of the object by isolating it, is shown through the pointing out of only a doer of feeling-contemplation in the property called feeling, as there is no contemplating of the body, or consciousness or mental objects in feeling but only the contemplating of feeling." the phrase "only a doer of feeling-contemplation" not only limits the range of one's focus but also limits one's intentions and ambitions, it seems to me. One thought that frequently arises in me is "okay, I've done that, what else should I do?" The"what else" is just the next moment of body, feeling, citta, or dhamma anupassana (look-see). Larry 17894 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 27, Comm, remarks. op 18-12-2002 05:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > [Tika] The word "feelings" is repeated to limit (or unambiguously > determine) the object by isolating it [anissato vavatthanam], for the > analysis of the apparently compact [ghana vinibbhoga] and for such other > purposes, in order to prevent any straying from the contemplation on > feelings to some other object. Erratic contemplation takes place because > of the connection of the other non-material aggregates with feelings, > and because of the dependence of non-material things like feelings on > material form in the five-constituent-existence [pañca vokara bhava] > or the sensuous plane of becoming [kama bhava]. Nina: This is very meaningful, because it is so difficult to know exactly feeling as pure nama, not mixed in with rupa or other namas. Usually we just think about feeling, instead of being aware exactly of its characteristic. We think of our aversion, our unpleasant feeling, no awareness. > [T] By the repetition of the word, the limiting of the object by > isolating it, is shown through the pointing out of only a doer of > feeling-contemplation in the property called feeling, as there is no > contemplating of the body, or consciousness or mental objects in feeling > but only the contemplating of feeling. > "This yogavacara (the Buddha's disciple who is > endeavoring for spiritual insight) contemplates just feelings and not > any other thing, Nina: yogaavacara: this word was discussed in Thailand: yoga: skill in samatha and vipassana. Aavacara: frequenting or traveling, namely to different objects.The way of teaching here is by way of puggala desana, teaching by way of persons. But actually, Yogaavacara refers to the citta which develops samatha and vipassana. As stated above: the yogaavacara contemplates just feelings and not any other thing. This means: at that moment. It all refers to just a moment. Next moment the citta contemplates rupa, or any other reality. Nina. 17895 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Foundation Bulletin,Dhamma Issues, remark Hi Larry, This is hard to understand. Citta has as only function to clearly know an object, it does not feel, it does not remember, it has no aversion or attachment. The cetasikas arise in addition to citta, each with their own function and quality. We know this in theory, but through insight we can more fully understand this. Now we learn to understand the difference between nama and rupa, and when we understand what nama is, also the difference between citta and cetasika can be realized. Without satipatthana, awareness of nama and rupa now, we cannot appreciate the Abhidhamma, we consider it only as theory. Now I cannot explain much more about this. I appreciate very much what Rob K wrote recently: end quote Nina. op 18-12-2002 06:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > "Conclusion regarding the second issue: Cetasika must be an external > åyatana and it cannot be an internal åyatana. > The reason: Citta is an internal åyatana (manåyatana or mind-base), > whereas cetasikas are different from citta, they are accompanying citta, > and thus, they are external åyatanas" > > I thought external meant object but a cetasika accompanying a citta > isn't the object of that citta, is it? 17896 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just chatting Dear Azita, Yes, it was wonderful to be with you all. We had a good time together did't we? And plenty of laughter. I like this post of yours, and your discussion about visible object. I had plenty of different vipakas, including computer breakdown. But something else : Lodewijk's sister (his only one alive) just died. Mentally she was already in very bad shape, could hardly recognize. We have the funeral service in a church and Lodewijk (piano), a nephew (cello) and I (tenor recorder) have to play Frescobaldi. I have to remember that music can be a kind of giving. They want the service in Christmas sphere and will light advents candlesin between speeches and music (Christine will like this!). Lodewijk finds that this helps to make it less sad. I just heard on a recorded radio program of A.Sujin about mindfulness of death: when aware of this moment now, you are not negligent, but observe marana sati: just think of the moment. It comes down to the moment always, not the situation. I have to work things out and may take a long, long time, it is difficult to find the time. My father needs a lot of attention these days: birthday luncheon, all the feastdays. How I need khanti for such occasions. You should remind me. How was your meeting with Ken H? That weekend? Nina. op 18-12-2002 15:00 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > I'm beginning to see also why Khanti can be a > parami; A.Sujin often speaks of patience and how > important it is. > Patience , courage and good cheer. 17897 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sotapanna Dear Swee Boon, Only the arahat has no more rebirth. As we consider the anagami: no return to this plane, the sakadagami, once returner, and the sotapanna has more rebirths than the persons who attained higher stages of enlightenment. I cannot say anything about the number seven, but is it important? He cannot have an unhappy rebirth and is sure to once attain arahatship. Is that not what is most important? Nina. op 18-12-2002 16:54 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > Can you also explain why, according to the Abhidhamma, is it that a > sotapanna has only at most 7 remaining rebirths? 17898 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 9:19pm Subject: Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Dear Howard, Stephen, Larry, TG, and KC, Just a quick note to say thanks for your posts. I am a little slow in replying due to following up Sutta references, but the major delay has been reading and reflecting on Bhikkhu Nanananda's "The Magic of the Mind" (Howard to blame :-)). This led to re-reading Howard, Jon and RobEp's discussion on the Kalakarama Sutta on dsg some months back. I hope eventually to find my way out of the Kalakarama Magic Show and back to the dualism/non-dualism discussionwith any comments and questions. Howard (or anyone) - do you have the last page of The Magic of the Mind? I can't download past this bit: "It is the understanding of the principle of relativity behind the concept of truth. The realization that anyone placed in a similar situation would behave as that crowd, had a mellowing effect on your sense of ". Is there an agreed definition of either non-dualism and dualism? It reminds me a little like a discussion using the term 'breakfast' as if there is a common agreement that the word breakfast has only one meaning. (This is a reflection from someone who is used to a sweet fruit, yoghurt, cold milk and cereal breakfast and was offered on her last day in Hong Kong a hot aromatic fish and vegetable stew with steamed rice.) Surely how we regard 'breakfast', what we think 'it' is, will strongly affect 'how'and 'where' we go about finding/gaining 'it'. And, in the context of the Buddha's teachings, whether or not he taught a Non-dualism, a Dualism, or neither, will surely affect our Buddhist life and practice. (not to mention subjects like 'sakkaya-ditthi.). metta, Christine 17899 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just chatting Hi Nina, My condolences to you and Lodewijk at this sad time. Music certainly is a gift, especially with the dignity and respect it shows for the departed dear one, and to the the congregation of relatives and friends at the funeral ceremony. Your music will be a balm applied to grieving hearts. Many people are inarticulate when experiencing the suffering that the intrusion of death brings. Music speaks in a language which is understood without the necessity for words. I think it is one of the most appropriate gifts of all. You may find a little bit about our weekend at Cooran in these Posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17504 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17627 Azita was still in Thailand on that weekend, but we hope she (and anyone else interested) will be there for the next SEQdsg (i.e. South East Queensland dhammastudy group) get together. metta, Christine --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > Yes, it was wonderful to be with you all. We had a good time together did't > we? And plenty of laughter. I like this post of yours, and your discussion > about visible object. > I had plenty of different vipakas, including computer breakdown. But > something else : Lodewijk's sister (his only one alive) just died. Mentally > she was already in very bad shape, could hardly recognize. We have the > funeral service in a church and Lodewijk (piano), a nephew (cello) and I > (tenor recorder) have to play Frescobaldi. I have to remember that music can > be a kind of giving. They want the service in Christmas sphere and will > light advents candlesin between speeches and music (Christine will like > this!). Lodewijk finds that this helps to make it less sad. > I just heard on a recorded radio program of A.Sujin about mindfulness of > death: when aware of this moment now, you are not negligent, but observe > marana sati: just think of the moment. It comes down to the moment always, > not the situation. I have to work things out and may take a long, long time, > it is difficult to find the time. My father needs a lot of attention these > days: birthday luncheon, all the feastdays. How I need khanti for such > occasions. You should remind me. > How was your meeting with Ken H? That weekend? > Nina. > > op 18-12-2002 15:00 schreef azita gill op gazita2002@y...: > > > I'm beginning to see also why Khanti can be a > > parami; A.Sujin often speaks of patience and how > > important it is. > > Patience , courage and good cheer. 17900 From: chase8383 Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhunis Hi KC Well I'd like to respond to your post. However, after continually being threatened about having my liberty to post removed if I don't conform, I can't. It seems that there are certain members I'm not allowed to speak to. It seems there are certain Buddhist thoughts I'm not allowed to express. It seems there is a fear I won't be respectful of the monks in here. It seems that I'm some kind of lose cannon on the deck of the good ship Theravada. Being an American, I have a lot trouble with this kind of restriction. Being a Buddhist, I weep. Be spacious, David 17901 From: Date: Wed Dec 18, 2002 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/19/02 12:20:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear Howard, Stephen, Larry, TG, and KC, > > Just a quick note to say thanks for your posts. I am a little slow > in replying due to following up Sutta references, but the major delay > has been reading and reflecting on Bhikkhu Nanananda's "The Magic of > the Mind" (Howard to blame :-)). This led to re-reading Howard, Jon > and RobEp's discussion on the Kalakarama Sutta on dsg some months > back. I hope eventually to find my way out of the Kalakarama Magic > Show and back to the dualism/non-dualism discussionwith any comments > and questions. > > Howard (or anyone) - do you have the last page of The Magic of the > Mind? I can't download past this bit: > > "It is the understanding of the principle of relativity behind the > concept of truth. The realization that anyone placed in a similar > situation would behave as that crowd, had a mellowing effect on your > sense of ". > > ============================ I wasn't aware that the book was available for downloading. How nice! I have a hard copy (in soft cover ;-), but not handy at the moment.When it's handier - soon, I'll type what's missing if it is not too extensive. If I should take too long in getting to this (I'm just about to start grading final exams), and if no one else replies with the info first, please do not hesitate to remind me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17902 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:10am Subject: RE: Foundation Bulletin,Dhamma Issues no 1 Hi Nina (and All): It was nice to see you and Lodewijk in Thailand. I had a lot of fun seeing you all. Thank you for the translation and the reminder at the end of you post. Without the remider, many probably try to figure out what are you trying to tell us, and forget that ayatanas become clear(er) at each moment of satipatthana (maybe at this moment). I was still quite puzzled when it is concluded the sense-bases remain ayatanas throughout the sense-door process. How can they still be "meeting points" when the seeing conciousness (for example) has fallen away--not "meeting" with the visible-object anymore? I am sure you and Num and others have discussed this before, but can you do it again please. :-) Best Regards, jaran 17903 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:33am Subject: Re: just chatting Hi Nina and Lodewijk: Sorry to hear about the loss. As I heard A. Sujin (and probably Rob K) said once, when someone was sad because of the death of a loved one, that they're already reborn, we should be happy for that. With Sympathy, jaran 17904 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some interesting comments on Ethical View vs. Scientific View Dear Rob M & All, You discuss the value and authenticity of commentarial material and in particular, the value of details in the Abhidammattha Sangaha which are not found in the Tipitaka. ..... You wrote: "I have incredible admiration for Acariya Anuruddha. Not only was he able to condense seven thick volumes of the Abhidhamma into fifty pages, but he also added a significant new material (citta-process) not found in the original. I believe that "paramattha dhamma", another critical term in the Abhidhammatthasangaha, is also not found in the Suttas nor in the original seven volumes of the Abhidhamma. Citta-vithi, paramattha may have appeared in commentarial literature prior to Anuruddha, but my point is that they are not in the Tipitaka." ***** Rob K and Nina have discussed the question of terminology. The entire Tipitaka consists of the teaching of paramattha dhammas (ultimate dhammas) and the distinction between these and the world of conceptual truths that we are so used to taking for ‘real’ or ‘ultimate’. Terminology also differs in various parts of the Suttanta and according to whether the Buddha or one of his disciples is speaking, I believe. I understand the Abhidhammatthasangaha to be based entirely on Tipitaka textual sources (mostly the Abhidhamma), but including the ancient commentaries down to and including the Visuddhimagga, especially its last chapter. It is for this reason that it has traditionally been used as the ‘first textbook in Abhidhamma Studies’ in monasteries, as B.Bodhi refers to it. The ancient commentaries themselves -- including the Abhidhamma commentaries -- mainly written by Buddhaghosa did not contain any new or original ideas, but were based on the old Sihala commentaries available at the time. Let me pick up on some details from earlier posts on this theme to include here with a few additional comments: ***** Buddhaghosa himself makes it clear in the Samantapasadika, the commentary to the Vinaya, that, as with all his commentaries, they are a compilation of the Sihala commentaries which were first recited under Mahinda. In his own words "it is a navasangahitaava.n.nanaa,(a re-compiled commentary)". If his statement were not correct, it would have been pointed out, especially as there is evidence to show that they were available for some time after Buddhaghosa’s work was written. According to Buddhaghosa, the origin of the Mahavihara commentarial tradition goes back to the time of the First Council. The commentaries were, he writes: "...rehearsed at the very outset, for the purpose of elucidating the meaning, by the 500 (who were) endowed with self-mastery, and were likewise rehearsed even afterwards were subsequently brought to the island of the Sihalas by Maha-Mahinda (who was) endowed with self-mastery...". I believe these comments would at apply for at least the basis of the Abhidhamma commentaries too. For earlier posts discussing the origins of the Abhidhamma as rehearsed at the First Council, see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12658 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17027 ..... We can clearly see that commentarial material has in fact been integrated into the Suttanta itself since the First Council, In his introduction to the translation of the Bahiranidana, Jayawickrama says: "According to the prologues of many of Buddhaghosa’s Commentaries, the origin of this tradition (that of commentarial tradition)goes back to the time of the first council. The stanzas Nos 6, 7 of the prologues (DA, MA, SA, AA, DhsA etc) state: "Whatever commentaries were rehearsed at the very outset, for the purpose of elucidating the meaning, by the five hundred (who were) endowed with self-mastery, and were likewise rehearsed even afterwards were subsequently brought to the island of the Siiha.laa by Mahaa-Mahinda (who was) endowed with self-mastery, and were made to remain in the Siiha.la language for the benefit of the inhabitants of the island." ..... Sometimes the Buddha preached ‘a sermon in concise form’ and then one of the chief disciples would explain in greater detail. Malalasekera writes in 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon'; "When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas." ***** Often in the suttas too, we read many references to the Buddha’s Teachings as explained by his key disciples such as in the Nakulipita where the words were elaborated by Sariputta. In the Atthasalini, it gives the following example from DN: " ‘Bhikkhus, learned is Mahakaccana, profoundly wise is Mahakaccana. If you had asked me the same question, I would have answered exactly as he has done.’ Thus since the time when the Teacher gave his approval, the whole suttanta became the word of the Buddha. And it is the same with the suttas expounded by Ananda and others." ..... Rob, you wrote: "Our focus in studying the citta-process should not be so much in the memorizing of the names of the cittas, the cetasikas which appear with each citta, etc. but focusing more on the fact that there is seeing but there is no seer (the citta process is empty). In my Abhidhamma class, I will continue to teach the citta vithi and the list of cetasikas in each citta; but I will constantly remind the students of why we are studying this stuff. This is part of my effort to minimize pananca." ..... I think this is wise and whether any of us agree or not on the origins hardly matters. We need to keep the purpose of our studies in mind all the time. The value of the commentaries or Abhidhamma details is in helping to clarify the phenomena in life and be a condition for awareness and wisdom to grow. In particular, the value is in assisting the comprehension of phenomena as conditioned elements which are anatta. The purpose is not to be an expert on detail, but without many of these details, it's questionable whether the rest of the teachings could be understood as I see it. Look forward to more of your reflections. I appreciate your deeper consideration of the Abhidhamma details as they apply in daily life and 'practice' of the teachings. Sarah ======= 17905 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] I'd got my first Pali Dictionary Paul Congratulations. I'm sure you'll find it useful for your studies. Jon PS I'd be interested to know where you saw the Pali-English and English-Pali dictionaries. Are there bookshops in Hong Kong that stock that kind of stuff? --- "ajahn_paul " wrote: > Hi all, > > Just want to share with all of u that i'd got my first Pali > dictionary. this is the only one i can find in Hong Kong, its a > Pali- > English-Chinese-Sanskrit, well, its not a good one, but its the > only > one with Chinese! (There is another 2, one is Pali-English, the > other > one is English-Pali, i think those r good! ^^) > > I'd tried to look for a Pali-Chinese Dictionary on internet,,,, > yes, > i'd found one, but not enough for me. In Southern Buddhism, im > just > one of the satrkids! hehehehe > > btw, i think its a good start! ^^ 17906 From: ajahn_paul Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:11am Subject: Re: I'd got my first Pali Dictionary Hi Jon, there is a book store at G/F, 241-243 Sai Yee St., Mongkok. (MTR- Prince Edward Station), they got many english buddhism books there. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Paul > > Congratulations. I'm sure you'll find it useful for your studies. > > Jon > > PS I'd be interested to know where you saw the Pali-English and > English-Pali dictionaries. Are there bookshops in Hong Kong that > stock that kind of stuff? > 17907 From: nidive Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:18am Subject: Re: Commentaries are papanca-like? Dear RobertK > While some ruaps are conditioned by citta (consciousness) others, > such as the rupas that make up rocks or trees are conditioned by > utu, not citta. Hence, I believe Citta is not a necessary > condition for all rupas to arise. Let us say that all cittas suddenly disappear from this entire samsara. Would rupa still stand on its own, independent of cittas? Taken from ADL, The 'Visuddhimagga' (XVIII, 34) explains: Furthermore, nama has no efficient power, it cannot occur by its own efficient power... It does not eat, it does not drink, it does not speak, it does not adopt postures. And rupa is without efficient power; it cannot occur by its own efficient power. For it has no desire to eat, it has no desire to drink, it has no desire to speak, it has no desire to adopt postures. But rather it is when supported by rupa that nama occurs; and it is when supported by nama that rupa occurs. When nama has the desire to eat, the desire to drink, the desire to speak, the desire to adopt a posture, it is rupa that eats, drinks, speaks and adopts a posture.... Furthermore (XVIII, 36) we read: And just as men depend upon A boat for traversing the sea, So does the mental body need The matter-body for occurrence. And as the boat depends upon The men for traversing the sea, So does the matter-body need The mental body for occurrence. Depending each upon the other The boat and men go on the sea. And so do mind and matter both Depend the one upon the other. If rupa can occur independently of nama (citta & cetasikas), and nama can occur independently of rupa, 'samsara' cannot be called 'samsara'. The cessation of nama comes the cessation of rupa. The cessation of rupa comes the cessation of nama. This is how I understand the Law of Dependent Origination. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 17908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 27, Comm, remarks Hi Larry, op 19-12-2002 03:13 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I think this section again states that we should experience each of the > four main objects of satipatthana (body, feeling, consciousness, and > dhammas) as separate distinct phenomena and most importantly notice that > they are anicca, dukkha, anatta. Nina: We cannot realize these three characteristics yet, don't rush. When feeling (any feeling) appears, we can begin to understand it as nama, a reality which experiences. Since the first stage of insight has not been reached, how could we penetrate the three characteristics, that comes at later stages. L: I have found that in my rush to > judgement I often overlook the feeling of vipaka and concentrate on the > like, dislke, don't know etc. of javana. N: I overlook too! L:Like, dislike, don't know and > their opposites are not feelings but the feelings of pleasant, > unpleasant, neutral are associated with them. Beauty and ugliness, for > example, are equivalent to like and dislike and are associated with > pleasant and unpleasant feeling. N: I would think that beauty and ugliness are attributes of the object that is experienced. L:The actual visual consciousness is > resultant (vipaka) and is associated with neutral feeling. One could > experience feeling as something in itself and notice that it is > impermanent, undesirable, and not self. Likewise with the > consciousnesses of like, dislike etc. >N: Again: don't rush. L: In the sentence: > > "By the repetition of the word, the limiting of the object by isolating > it, is shown through the pointing out of only a doer of > feeling-contemplation in the property called feeling, as there is no > contemplating of the body, or consciousness or mental objects in feeling > but only the contemplating of feeling." N: The doer:: eva: only , anupassanaa: contemplation (anu: I checked in Thailand: it can be following, or: again and again). kaarassa: of a doer. Here again the real meaning: the citta which develops satipatthana, with awareness of feeling. L: One thought that frequently arises in me is "okay, I've > done that, what else should I do?" The"what else" is just the next > moment of body, feeling, citta, or dhamma anupassana (look-see). N: Very well said, Larry. Just the moment, and then there is the next moment. Who can control what object citta frequents next? In Bangkok we had two hours on the satipatthana sutta, so inspiring. Many questions. After that, two hours of Board meeting: during one hour it was discussed whether only the first hour should be spent with questions and the second hour with the text. The first hour could become longer and then less time for the text. A. Sujin said: the questions are most important, because if people do not understand satipatthana now, they cannot understand the text. It does not matter if the second part dedicated to the text becomes shorter, one can take a year with only a few parts of the texts. This was a long discussion but it brought home to me that important principles were being discussed. We should not understand just the names of realities, but the characteristics which appear now. So many of my Thai friends not only know more and more Pali (Pali lesson starts at 8 on Sunday at the Foundation) but they understand that it is understanding of the reality now that matters, not theoretical understanding. I really had piti and paamojja.m (delight) being with them. It bolstered my confidence. Larry, I thought of you during the Board meeting. It is so important you bring up all your questions. With appreciation, Nina. 17909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 10:07am Subject: Buddha, the perfected one, the fully enlightened one He is the Buddha, the Perfected one, the Fully Enlightened one Dear friends, This is a short meditation on the recollection of the Buddha's excellent qualities, which is a subject suitable for daily life. But more than before, I realize that without satipatthana the understanding of his excellent qualities is only on the theoretical level. We may repeat words, but our understanding cannot be very profound. The sotapanna has through insight, developed by means of satipatthana, eradicated all doubts as to the Triple Gem. He has an unshakable confidence in the Buddha and his teachings. As for us, beginners, panna is still weak, it is mostly theoretical understanding. We may well doubt about the Buddha, about his panna by which he was awakened and which could completely eradicate defilements. We cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom, compassion and purity. We cannot grasp what it means that the Buddha was completely without defilements, we may have doubts about this. We may doubt about his teaching of anatta, doubt about what is the Buddha's word and what has been added later on. However, we can begin to prove to ourselves the truth of his teachings. Like and dislike arise in our lives. We can prove that aversion and dislike are conditioned by clinging: things are not the way we would like them to be. Like and dislike are also conditioned by ignorance: not knowing realities as they are. Conceit arises: we cling to the importance of self, we find ourselves better than others. There can also be moments of generosity, these are completely different from akusala. We learn: kusala is kusala, it has its own characteristic that cannot be changed. Akusala is akusala. We learn that different realities arise each because of their own conditions, that there is no person who can control their arising. As we go along studying and considering the teachings, confidence grows. How could we understand the realities of our life without the Buddha's teachings? How could we ever have known about realities such as conceit? We shall have less doubt about the scriptures and commentaries: what matters to us is: how relevant are they to our life now. Do they help us to understand reality at this moment or not. We truly have to verify this. The Dhamma is subtle and deep, it takes endless patience to develop understanding, but this is the way to leave all doubts far behind, so that our confidence gradually grows. I was reminded by A. Sujin:< Do not forget that there are realities appearing all the time.> It truly impresses me to be reminded by a wise friend who has understanding of realities. It helps me to have more confidence. We can have confidence that the Buddha is the Perfected One, the Fully Enlightened One. Nina. 17910 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 27, Comm, remarks > > I think this section again states that we should experience each of the > > four main objects of satipatthana (body, feeling, consciousness, and > > dhammas) as separate distinct phenomena and most importantly notice that > > they are anicca, dukkha, anatta. > Nina: We cannot realize these three characteristics yet, don't rush. Hi Nina, How are these three characteristics to be realized? Metta, Victor 17911 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 0:14pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhunis Hello David, KC (and all), I like the expression "a loose cannon on the decks of the good ship Theravada". Another one I like is "the newest gunslinger in town". :- ) I really hope you will allow your exasperation to evaporate - it usually does I find - we can then all continue to have the benefit of your understanding and experience in life and the Dhamma. I find one can say anything on this List, IF it one is able to show it can be supported by the Buddha's Teachings in the three baskets of the Tipitaka, and IF it works within List rules, just involves developing a basic 'skilful means' really. This enables a small part of the multitudinous Yahoo Groups to be available for Theravada Discussion and not be swamped by other buddhist traditions, other religions, straight philosophy, or fuzzy speculative thought and personal opinion. I am a member of many other Lists, but I experience this list as a safe, nurturing, constructive space because of the firm, reasonable structure in place. [We are all Buddhists, though we may not all be Americans. Does this matter? We all come from nations and cultures where freedom of expression is valued and defended.] KC, I think elements of this article may relate to your recent discussion with David. (Thanks Rahula for this site.) http://www.webcastmy.com.my/bodhivision/Symbiosis1.html metta, Christine --- "chase8383 " wrote: > Hi KC 17912 From: Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Christine, you wrote: Howard (or anyone) - do you have the last page of The Magic of the Mind? I can't download past this bit: "It is the understanding of the principle of relativity behind the concept of truth. The realization that anyone placed in a similar situation would behave as that crowd, had a mellowing effect on your sense of ". L: sense of judgement. This comes on page 17 of an 88 page book. Larry 17913 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) Hi Larry (and All), I have time for one post; so I will make it a big one! I hope that others will correct me if I am leading you astray :-) --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > I agree the javana/vipaka relationship doesn't appear to support the > idea "good intentions produce good results". However, I think it should > support this idea because that is how I understand buddhist ethics and > kamma. Maybe I have it wrong. How do you understand Buddhist ethics and > kamma (I'm assuming they go together)? ===== I would express Buddhist ethics and kamma as, "intentions condition appropriate results". This covers both "good" and "bad" without having to use those problematic terms. I consider "good" and "bad" to be problematic because there is no clear basis on which to define a result as being "good" or "bad". Intentions can be clearly categorized based on roots, but results (vipaka) are rootless. To me, "intentions condition appropriate results" means that results arise (in part) due to past intentions. In other words, my current situation is not random. There were things which caused the current situation to be the way it is. Some of those things were my past intentions. Some of those things were simply conditions; conditions which allowed the "seeds" from my past intentions to arise. I like to use a seed analogy. A plant (result) exists because of a seed and conditions (rain, sun, soil, etc.). The seed is only a seed; the seed did not cause the rain, sun, soil, etc. to arise. Conditions arose because it was their nature to arise. They would have arisen whether the seed was present or not. The nature of the plant is totally dependent on the seed. Mango seeds can only produce mango plants. This is where the concept of "appropriate" comes in. Not every seed becomes a plant. The vast majority of seeds expire without ever becoming plants. What is it that determines if a seed becomes a plant? The right combination of conditions (rain, sun, soil, etc.) has to be present for a seed to become a plant. Here is a summary: - Intentions create "seeds" - "Seeds" may or may not become results; it depends on conditions; those conditions are the environment in which the "seeds exist" - If a "seed" does become a result, then the result will always be based on the type of "seed" (i.e. results are appropriate) ===== > > I'm starting to think the resultant javana idea won't work, so here's > another: kusala intentions produce pleasant vedana results. Also, is > there mind door javana and mind door vipaka, or is kamma only a reaction > to rupa? ===== I would not try to link vedana and kusala. Lobha-mula cittas can have either pleasant or indifferent feeling. Akusala vipaka cittas can have either pleasant or indifferent feeling. Kusala vipaka cittas can have either pleasant or indifferent feeling. You raise a very good question about "mind door javana" and "mind door vipaka". My reply to this is going to be a long one. Abhidhamma texts spend almost all their focus on the sense-door citta-process (the one with 17 cittas). In reality, the sense-door citta-process is much, much less common that the mind-door citta- process. In reality, the sense-door citta-process creates extremely weak kamma, whereas the mind-door citta-process can create extremely strong kamma. Let's start with a sense-door citta-process though the eye door. What is the object of this process? It is a visible object; a small dot (think of the dots of a TV screen). How strong is the kamma created by this one dot? Pretty weak! Let's add in a few dots from more sense-door citta-processes. More weak kamma. With a collection of dots, we are now starting to "construct" a whole picture. Constructing a whole picture is done by a series of mind-door processes. These mind-door processes also create weak kamma as the volition (cetana) involved is weak. Once the whole picture is complete, there are a series of mind-door citta-processes which perceive colour and shading (still weak volition). With a whole picture, complete with colour and shading in place, the next set of thought processes conceive a shape. Another set of mind-door thought processes are involved as we name the object (it is a "flower"). The naming or "designation" process is still "weak". The next set of mind-door citta-processes are involved with "judgement"; (it is a "rose"), a refining of the naming process. The naming is further refined in the next step of mind-door citta-processes called the "classification" stage; (it is a "red rose"). So far in this example, we have had one set of sense-door citta- processes (collecting the dots) and six sets of mind-door citta- processes (construction, perception, conception, designation, classification, judgement). All of these citta-processes have created "weak" kamma because of the limited strength of the volition involved. I believe that in the Madhupindika Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 18), the Buddha classified these stages as "contact", "feeling", "perceiving" and "thinking about". The next stage is the critical one. The next stage is the point at which kamma (volition) becomes strong. The way that I see it, so far the mind has been "expanding outward"; the next stage is when the mind starts "expanding upwards on the base it has created". As the mind "expands upwards", volition gets stacked on top of volition and the cumulative effect becomes very powerful; it creates strong kamma. The next stage is "mental proliferation" (papanca). In the example above, the mind jumps from "red rose" to "red roses are associated with romances", "I remember giving a red rose", "I like red roses", "My wife would like to have this red rose" and so on. In summary, sense-door citta-processes make up a very small percentage of our citta-processes and contribute an even smaller percentage to our accumulations and kammic seeds. Mind-door citta- processes are far more important, both in terms of quantity and kammic impact. In other words, there are a huge number of "mind door javana" compared to the number of "sense door javana". You asked about "mind door javana" and "mind door vipaka". Let's look more carefully at the mind-door citta-process. In the mind-door citta-process, there is no past bhavanga citta. The role of the past bhavanga citta in the sense-door citta-process is to give enough time for the rupa to impact the stream of bhavanga. For a "very great object", this takes only one citta (one past bhavanga citta), but for "great object", "slight object" and "very slight object", it takes more time for the rupa to impact the stream of bhavanga. But since the rupa and the sense-door citta-process must expire together and the rupa lasts for 17 citta-moments, the sense-door citta- process for "great object" cuts off the registration cittas, the citta-process for the "slight object" cuts off the registration and the javana cittas and the citta-process for the "very slight object" cuts off all except two instants of vibrating bhavanga. In the case of the mind-door citta-process, there is no need for a past bhavanga because the object is already in the mind. The mind- door citta-process starts with a vibrating bhavanga followed by an arresting bhavanga. Bhavanga cittas are technically vipaka cittas, but their object is the kamma, sign of kamma or sign of destiny at the time of rebirth. In other words, they are not vipaka from any "current" object. Following the arresting bhavanga citta is the mind-door adverting citta, which is the same as the determining citta in the sense-door citta process. As you may recall, this citta is functional (kiriya), not vipaka. The object of the mind-door adverting citta is the "current" object (i.e. the concept in the mind). The mind-door adverting citta is followed by the javana cittas (which create kamma). In the case of a "clear" object, the javana cittas are followed by two registration cittas, whereas in the case of an obscure object, there are no registration cittas. As you can see, the mind-door citta-process does not have the vipaka cittas that the sense-door citta process has (i.e. no sense- consciousness citta, no receiving citta and no investigating citta). It may have registration cittas (which are vipaka), but there is no "mind door vipaka" as you have called it in your message. The mind-door citta-process doesn't need vipaka cittas (except for registration cittas). Remember the one set of sense-door citta-processes (weak kamma) followed by six sets of mind-door citta processes (weak kamma) followed by a very large number of mind-door citta processes involved in papanca (strong kamma)? Vipaka only plays a role in the first set (the sense-door citta processes); after that, it is a chain reaction of mind-door processes. In every citta-process (sense- door and mind-door), it is our accumulations which condition the appropriate javana cittas to arise. We are truly creatures of habit. We might almost go so far as to say that we are "controlled" by our own habits. With effort, we can weaken old habits and create new habits. The sotapanna magga citta eradicates those accumulations that could lead us to rebirth in the four woeful states. Larry, I suggest that if you want to pinpoint the factor that has the dominant influence on our lives, it is not vipaka, it is not conditions, it is OUR ACCUMULATIONS. ====== > Also, I've loosened up my ideas on what vipaka means. Today's weather > probably wasn't due to a specific javana series in my past, but, due to > a javana citta at the end of my past life I was born in this time and > place and with this genetic make-up. Due to the combination of genes and > culture I lived this long and ended up in this place and experienced > today's weather. That is one way of explaining how today's weather is > the result of a javana citta. Also, of course, my choice to drive a car > and use coal produced electricity played a part in global warming and > contributed to today's weather. However, since today's weather was > pleasant, I must have done something right in the past. Knowing a tiny > bit how painful pain can be, I will try to keep a sharp eye out for > akusala cittas. Even though I am equipped with a powerful and > sophisticated philosophy it is all someone else's wisdom as is the idea > kusala cittas produce pleasant vedana. So, I just have to follow my > accumulations:))) ====== Sorry Larry, today's weather has nothing to do with javana cittas. If you get wet in the rain, the rain was simply the environment and has no relationship to your current or past cittas or kamma. The rain is simply the environment which has its own causes (warm fronts, cold fronts, etc.). The fact that you are getting wet in the rain is conditioned by two things: 1. There is rain (the environment) 2. You are standing outside (your vipaka) Think about it. Why are you standing outside? It is because you chose to go outside. In a simplistic sense, the kammic impact of your choice to go outside created the vipaka of being outside in the rain. ======= > > One slight misunderstanding in your reply. There is a rupa outside a > sense door and a rupa inside a sense door. I am contending they are > different kinds of phenomena. I asked Howard if I could call the rupa > inside a sense door a consciousness, but he said no. So in my email to > you I called it a "whatever-it-is". When a rupa touches the sensitive > matter of a sense door, it seems to me this sensitive matter converts > that input into something that can relate to bhavanga and all the other > cittas. This whatever-it-is is not the same stuff as what is outside the > sense door touching the sensitive matter. In addition to that, we have > no real experience of rupa until sense consciousness arises. This sense > consciousness is what we know directly as rupa and it is a different > phenomenon from the rupa outside the sense door and the whatever- it-is. > So basically, there are three rupas. Howard seemed to think the sense > consciousness rupa would be overlaid with concepts but I don't think > concepts come into the picture in a major way until the accumulations > arise. I'm betting on sanna as being chiefly responsible for concepts > and accumulations in general. ======== I believe that there is only one "rupa". It is the physical phenomena that is contacted during the sense-door consciousness citta. Physical phenomena which does not get touched by sense-door consciousness (i.e. the tree that falls in the forest with none to hear) does not qualify to be rupa (according to my phenomenologist perspective). The sense-door consciousness has a base of eye/ear/nose/etc. while all other cittas have a heart base. The eye- door consciousness has an eye-base and contacts the visible object. The visible object rupa is not contacted by any of the other cittas in the citta-process; the other cittas work with a mental impression of the visible object rupa. The five-door adverting citta has "something out there" as an object. The sense-door consciousness citta has the visible object rupa as object (i.e. through the eye- door). The subsequent cittas have "the mental impression of the visible object rupa" as object. I agree with you that concepts come later (not during the sense-door citta-process). This was explained in detail above; constructions, perceptions, conceptions, designations, classifications, judgements and papanca can all be called concepts. Concepts are not paramattha dhammas. Concepts only come into play as objects of mind-door citta- processes. =========== > > I like your 4 part kamma progression: > > 1. Good intentions -> "seed for future vipaka" (not inherently good > or bad) > 2. Good intentions -> good accumulations > 3. Conditions + "seed for future vipaka" -> current situation > 4. Current situation + good accumulations -> good intentions > > L: My only qualm is that we have to say "current situation" is neither > good nor bad. We can at least say current situation is pleasant, > unpleasant, or neutral, and we can also say current situation is dukkha. > Is that enough to satisfy a moral imperative? ========== Sorry Larry, I have to stick with, "current situation is neither good nor bad". As mentioned above, labelling our current situation as pleasant / unpleasant / neutral is irrelevant to the ethical issues. Saying that our current situation is dukkha is true by definition (it doesn't clarify anything). Metta, Rob M :-) 17914 From: Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:37pm Subject: Way 28, Comm. "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Consciousness is only mundane; and mundane, too, are mental objects. This statement will be made evident in the analytically expository portion [niddesavara]. [Tika} In the way mentioned above should the repetition of words in the contemplation of consciousness and mental objects be explained, too. [T] "Only mundane", as connected with the examining of mundane objects of thought in the light of impermanence, suffering and soullessness [sammasana carassa adhippetatta]. To be sure, in whatever way feeling is to be exclusively contemplated, here, the contemplating in that very way is the meaning of the word: "Contemplating feelings in the feelings" [kevalam panidha yatha vedana anupassitabba tatha anupassanto vedanasu vedananupassiti veditabbo]. In the contemplation of consciousness and mental objects too this is the method. "How should feeling be contemplated upon?", it is asked, further. Pleasurable feeling because it is the stuff of suffering as suffering. Painful feeling because it is the condition of bringing out trouble and so forth, as a thorn. And the neither pleasurable nor painful feeling, because of non-mastery or dependence and so forth, as transiency. [T] By the passage, beginning with the words "To be sure, in whatsoever way," the commentator points to the limit of the object (excluding thereby discursive thinking that strays from the reality). Accordingly, the Master said: Who sees pleasure as suffering, Who sees pain as a thorn, Who sees as a thing that is fleeting, The neutral peace that's shorn Of pleasure and pain; that bhikkhu will, Rightly, know; and live, become still.[18] [T] "Who sees pleasure as suffering" = Who sees feelings by way of the suffering natural to change, with the eye of wisdom. [T] "Who sees pain as a thorn" = Who sees painful feeling as damage causing, piercing in, and as a thing hard to drive out. [T] "The neutral peace" = The feeling of indifference is peaceful, owing to the absence of grossness as in states of pain and pleasure; and by way of a restful nature. [T] Who sees feelings with the thought that they are impermanent by reason of their becoming non-existent after having come to be, owing to their being characterised by the qualities of arising and passing away, owing to their temporariness, and owing to their being in a state of constant negation, is he who sees the neutral peace of the neither pleasurable nor painful feelings as fleeting, and is indeed the bhikkhu who will rightly know and live, become still. [T]Rightly = Correctly. [T] Know = know feelings as they are. 18. Samyutta Nikaya, iv, page 207, P.T.S. Edition. 17915 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Larry, Victor, and All, Thanks for this info. Larry. My mistake, I was probably trying to look at an extract. No wonder Howard was surprised. This was the link I was using: http://nibbanam.com/MagicOfMind.pdf But, while doing that, I came across something that may be of interest to the Nibbana Corner: Bhikkhu Nanananda said: "Recently we have had an occasion to listen to a series of sermons on Nibbàna and there have been differences of opinion regarding the interpretation of some deep suttas on Nibbàna in those sermons. And so the venerable Great Preceptor suggested to me that it would be useful to this group if I would give a set of sermons on Nibbàna, touching on those controversial points." http://www.beyondthenet.net/ Good audio-visual intro. - Click on any picture. Click on The Noble Quest, and the Nibbana Sermons are in the Left Hand Column. Victor, I was interested to find support here for your definiteness about 'nama' simply meaning 'name'. (Part 1) Bhikkhu Nananda said: "It is obvious that nàma means `name', and in the suttas also, nàma, when used by itself, means `name'. However when we come to the commentaries we find some kind of hesitation to recognize this obvious meaning. Even in the present context, the commentary, Paramatthajotikà, explains the word `name' so as to mean `bending'. It says that all immaterial states are called nàma, in the sense that they bend towards their respective objects and also because the mind has the nature of inclination: ârammaõàbhimukhaü namanato, cittassa ca natihetuto sabbampi aråpaü `nàman'ti vuccati. And this is the standard definition of nàma in Abhidhamma compendiums and commentaries. The idea of bending towards an object is brought in to explain the word nàma. It may be that they thought it too simple an interpretation to explain nàma with reference to `name', particularly because it is a term that has to do with deep insight. However as far as the teachings in the suttas are concerned, nàma still has a great depth even when it is understood in the sense of `name'. " metta, Christine --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > L: sense of judgement. This comes on page 17 of an 88 > page book. > Larry 17916 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:22pm Subject: Re: Commentaries are papanca-like? --- "nidive " wrote: > Dear RobertK > > RobertK:> While some ruaps are conditioned by citta (consciousness) others, > > such as the rupas that make up rocks or trees are conditioned by > > utu, not citta. Hence, I believe Citta is not a necessary > > condition for all rupas to arise. > __________________ > Let us say that all cittas suddenly disappear from this entire > samsara. Would rupa still stand on its own, independent of cittas? > If rupa can occur independently of nama (citta & cetasikas), and > nama can occur independently of rupa, 'samsara' cannot be > called 'samsara'. ______________________- Dear Swee boon, According to the texts there are the worlds of arupa brahmas where there is no rupa at all. Samsara is the rise and fall of the khandas . But even upon khanda parinibbana of the arahant where samsara utterly ceases forever there are still the material remains (relics) which are conditioned by utu and which persist for weeks, days, years or centuries. Rupas which make up rocks and trees etc. are not part of the paticcasamuppada. RobertK > > The cessation of nama comes the cessation of rupa. The cessation of > rupa comes the cessation of nama. This is how I understand the Law > of Dependent Origination. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 17917 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:45pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Christine, Thanks for this interesting passage from Bhikkhu Nananda. I was just browsing Wittgenstein's <> and came across this Remark #116: "When philosophers use a word "knowledge", "being", "object", "I", "proposition", "name" - and try to grasp the essence of the thing, one must always ask oneself: is the word ever actually used in this way in the language game which is its original home? - What we do is to bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use." Metta, Victor > Victor, I was interested to find support here for your definiteness > about 'nama' simply meaning 'name'. (Part 1) > Bhikkhu Nananda said: "It is obvious that nàma means `name', and in > the suttas also, nàma, when used by itself, means `name'. However > when we come to the commentaries we find some kind of hesitation to > recognize this obvious meaning. Even in the present context, the > commentary, Paramatthajotikà, explains the word `name' so as to mean > `bending'. It says that all immaterial states are called nàma, in the > sense that they bend towards their respective objects and also > because the mind has the nature of inclination: ârammaõàbhimukhaü > namanato, cittassa ca natihetuto sabbampi aråpaü `nàman'ti vuc cati. > And this is the standard definition of nàma in Abhidhamma com pendiums > and commentaries. The idea of bending towards an object is brought in > to explain the word nàma. It may be that they thought it too simple > an interpretation to explain nàma with reference to `name', > particularly because it is a term that has to do with deep insight. > However as far as the teachings in the suttas are concerned, nàma > still has a great depth even when it is understood in the sense of > `name'. " > > metta, > Christine 17918 From: Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) Hi Rob, If I may say so, "intentions condition appropriate results" sounds a little like a squeamish way of saying good intentions produce good results. At any rate here is the sutta analysis of kamma: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn136.html For an analysis of kamma in citta process I quote from CMA p.172: Sense objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable (aniitha), the moderately desirable (iitha, also called itthamajjhatta, desirable neutral), and the extremely desirable (ati-ittha). While the desirable object is thus subdivided into two, all undesirable objects are comprised within a single class called simply "the undesirable." According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is not a variable determined by the individual temperament and preferences of the experiencer. The Sammohavinodani, the commentary to the Vibhanga, contends that when a person considers a desirable object to be undesirable, or an undesirable object to be desirable, he does so due to a perversion of perception (sannavipallasa).The object itself, however, remains inherently desirable or undesirable independently of the perceiver's preferences. The Sammohavinodani states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesirable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima-satta): "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face. Through the force of unwholesome kamma one encounters an undesirable object, and thus the resultant cittas in the cognitive process by which that object is cognized will be generated by the maturation of that unwholesome kamma. In this case the sense consciousness, reception, investigation, and registration cittas are necessarily unwholesome resultants (akusalavipaka). The accompanying feeling is always equanimity (upekkha), except in the case of body consciousness, which is accompanied by pain. L: So my ideas of a resultant vipaka or "kusala citta produces pleasant feeling vipaka" were both wrong. A few thoughts on the quotation above, when we recognize (sanna, perception) the beautiful as the beautiful I think that goes beyond vipaka citta and is a javana citta probably with pleasant feeling. If, with insight, we see the conventionally beautiful as ugly (foul in the satipatthana sense) that is not sanna vipallasa but sati, a higher form of understanding than sanna. If we perceive the conventionally beautiful as not self, that is panna (sampajanna), a still higher understanding. Also, I was thinking if I was reborn as an animal, the conventional values that obtain would be the values of that species of animal. Any thoughts? Larry 17919 From: Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Christine, Thanks for the link. Your conjunction of the two topics nibbana and nama reminded me of a thought I had a few days ago. In a poetic sense, maybe we could say nama is verb and rupa is noun. That would mean nibbana is a verb. Larry 17920 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RE: Foundation Bulletin,a question Hi Jaran, It was wonderful seeing you, and you know, at Kunying Nopparath's house I had the pleasure seeing your father. op 19-12-2002 14:10 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@b...: > > Thank you for the translation and the reminder at the end of you > post. Without the remider, many probably try to figure out what > are you trying to tell us, and forget that ayatanas become > clear(er) at each moment of satipatthana (maybe at this moment). N: Yes, we have to be reminded of this moment, never enough. Jaran: I was still quite puzzled when it is concluded the sense-bases > remain ayatanas throughout the sense-door process. How can they > still be "meeting points" when the seeing conciousness (for > example) has fallen away--not "meeting" with the visible-object > anymore? N: Yes, the other cittas in that process also experience visible object although they are not seeing. There is still meeting of object, sense-organ (which has not fallen away) and the relevant citta. P.S. Thanks for your sympathy with the loss of Lodewijk's sister. Nina 17921 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just chatting Dear Christine, thank you for your condolences, and true, it is often easier to speak with music. Nina. op 19-12-2002 07:21 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > My condolences to you and Lodewijk at this sad time. Music > certainly is a gift, 17922 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samvega and Pasada Dear Christine, Thank you for all the helpful references you provided and I also like B.Bodhi's translation of the verse from the Bhadekeratta sutta and find it very inspiring. I also enjoyed looking at the ‘urgent’ and ‘rousing’ Suttas and I always find the reminders from ‘Future Dangers’. Now we’re comfortable, healthy and able to listen, discuss and consider. We don’t know what the future will bring. I knew little about the meaning of sa”mvega (sense of urgency) which you've helpfully reminded me about a few times, but nothing about pasaada (clearness, purity -here as in composure, serenity) which is not common at all, as far as I know. I've been doing a little research, so please bear with me. Let me start by adding a few quotes from texts using the terms with some of my own comments (bound to be controversial to some;-)). ==================================================== 1. “How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense of urgency . These are the four, namely, birth , aging, sickness, and death, with the suffering of the states of loss as the fifth, and also the suffering in the past rooted in the round (of rebirths), the suffering in the future rooted in the round (of rebirths), and the suffering in the present rooted in the search for nutriment. And he creates confidence by recollecting the special qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. This is how he encourages the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged.” Vis iV, 63 ***** Comment: I don’t understand this to refer to any emotional state or feeling of 'anxiety' or 'weariness' or idea of life being “pointless and sometimes unbearable”. Nor do I understand it to refer to any “intense desire for things to be different”. These are reminders to be aware now and to know there is no other time or opportunity. Like you said, “Samvega means a sense of urgency to escape the round of meaningless existence; and pasada, a clarity and serene confidence that allows one to proceed confidently towards the goal without lapsing into despair.” ***** 2. “Confidence has the characteristic of being undisturbed and its manifestation is confiding (clarification).” Foortnote: “ ‘Pasaada - confidence’ means lit. ‘transparency’ or ‘settledness’ (i.e. of water that was muddy and has become clear), and the word pasaadati is used both for the clearing of water and for acquiring confidence. Faith is thus regarded as the settling of the disturbance of doubts and clearing of the mind by resolution or trust.” Netti28, p47 in PTS trans. ***** 3. “The community’s having progressed by the good way is the footing , shared in common, for the Community’s goodness. The excellence of the Master is the footing, shared in common, for instilling confidence in the unconfident and for strengthening the already confident. The state of not having resisted the Patimokkha Rule is the footing, shared in common, for the deterrence of contumacious persons and for the comfort of pious persons.” Netti50, p.76 in PTS transl ***** Comment: I like the way this links up with the discussion in the Vinaya corner and reason for adherence to the Patimokkha rules - “for the deterrence of contumacious persons.....” ***** 4. “Or alternatively he announced the Truth of Suffering first for the purpose of inspiring a sense of urgency in beings who are entangled in the enjoyment of the pleasure of becoming; and next to that the Truth of Origin for the purpose of making it known that (suffering) does not come as something not made and that it is not due to creation by a lord creator, etc but that it is due to this (cause). After that, cessation for the purpose of instilling comfort by showing the escape for those seeking escape from suffering and whose minds are distressed by suffering with its cause; and after that, the path leading to cessation for the purpose of attaining cessation....” Sammohavinodani,Class. of Truths 429 ***** 5. “The monk who knows the urgent need to keep the faculties restrained By fully understanding them will make an end of suffering” Sammohavinodani,Class. of Faculties,591 ***** Comment: restraint of the sense faculties and development of understanding again. This is satipatthana and the real understanding of samvega. We can read other examples in which monks and lay people were ‘impelled by the urgency’ to develop insight and attain arahatship. Of course these examples always need to be understood in the light of no beings, no selves, but confidence and understanding in the value of insight and the 4 right efforts. ***** I read with interest the article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu which you referred us to: ..... Affirming the Truths of the Heart - The Buddist teachings on Samvega & Pasada. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/affirming.html ..... I find the references to ‘sources of emotion’ under ‘samvega’ in Nyantiloka’s dictionary and Thanissaro’s discussion of samvega and pasada as ‘two emotions’ to be misleading. Comments like ‘remaining true to his honest emotions’ and ‘the truth of the heart when it aspires to a happiness absolutely pure’ can so easily be understood to justify those feelings you mentioned of anxiety, weariness, pointlessness or intense desire to be different which surely represent lobha, dosa and moha with a lot of thinking in between? Of course there must also be many moments of wise reflection, equanimity, awareness and confidence in the teachings, otherwise we wouldn’t be here and there wouldn’t be any wise reflection at all. However, I’d suggest the ‘sense of urgency’ is a prompting of uplifting, wholesome states, not an “oppressive sense of shock, dismay, and alienation that comes with realizing the futility and meaningless of life as it’s normally lived” as Thanissaro suggests. This sounds more like some kind of thinking with aversion and perhaps the misplaced idea as well that the development of understanding and insight is something separate or apart from life as we live it now, already by conditions. Just as ‘right livelihood’ cannot be defined apart from this very moment of abstention from that which is wrong, neither can ‘the urgent need to keep the sense faculties restrained’quoted above from Sammohavinodani be considered apart from this moment of seeing or hearing, regardless of whether we are Xmas shopping and listening to carols or sitting quietly in a temple. There are always objects for lobha and dosa as we read in the Vinaya and as Rob M just pointed out with his discussion on mind door processes and papanca. So very often, ‘listening to the heart’ or not being a ‘traitor to the heart’ merely means following one’s love for oneself, though I’m sure this isn’t what Thanissaro means to imply. However, I also think it’s misleading when we read any suggestions that noble qualities or in this case ‘the sense of urgency’ can turn into despair or negative states without prevention or ‘dedicated effort’. As Rob has also pointed out, wholesome and unwholesome mental states arising will depend primarily on accumulations but also on various conditioning factors. The wholesome ones never turn into unwholesome ones and always arise in spite of the great accumulations for the other. Thanissaro Bhikkhu’s conclusion that ‘one source of Buddhism’s strength is its ability to keep one foot out of the mainstream’ can also be misleading. Regardless of lifetstyle, I think the strength and lack of any conflict lies in the Truth about realities, the First Noble Truth, which is the same for us all regardless of whether we are in or out of any ‘mainstream’. As you so helpfully reminded us: "Let not a person revive the past Or on the future build his hopes; For the past has been left behind And the future has not been reached. Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state;..”MN 131 ***** I'll be glad to hear any of yours or others' comments. I'm aware that I may have taken some of Thanissaro's comments too literally or out of context. I apologise if this is so and don't wish to suggest any disrespect for his interesting article which many may find helpful. Sarah ======= 17923 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:12am Subject: more condolences..... Dear Nina and Lodevijk, We're both sorry to hear about Lodevijk's's sister. Even though, as you said, she was already very sick or mentally weak, I'm sure it's still something of a shock for Lodevijk, being his last sibling and the end of another 'chapter'. What a busy time it must be for you both and how you need all the useful reminders you heard and considered in Thailand. It's fortunate that you had your lovely trip to Cambodia and time in Thailand without any interruption. We both so hope the services go well and that the festivities with your father go as well as possible too......no limit to metta or the other brahma viharas as you discussed;-) "What one grasps thinking, 'this is mine', is left behind by death. Recognizing this fact, let not the wise one who follows the right path turn to acquisitiveness." (Jara Sutta) Best wishes and metta, Sarah (& Jonothan) ================== 17924 From: Beth Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:02am Subject: Hello Hello all, I'm very new to Buddhism. I began taking an interest in Buddhism when a local TV forum had various guest in which the topic was related to or about Buddhism. I've since attended some online chats in buddhist rooms (mostly yahoo) and have downloaded the Dhammapada from Access To Insight. I've been meditating in some form for most my life and have been working on awareness for the past few years. I look forward to reading your post. ~peace, Beth 17925 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:50am Subject: DSG archives Dear All Thanks to some fine work by Rob M, we now have a complete set of DSG messages, up to message number 17191 (in November), saved in html format on a CD. This means they can be searched using the search function that comes with your Windows/Mac OS system software, and read using your web browser program (I just ran a search for 'samvega' and came up with a dozen or so references). Anyone who would like a copy of the CD mailed to them, please contact me off-list with a postal address. Sarah and I would be very happy to provide the CDs and postage. Many thanks to Rob M for making this possible (and for coming up with such a great way to back up the archives). Jon jonoabb@y... PS Rob K, I know I have your postal address somewhere, but would you mind letting me have it again in case I can't find it ;-)) 17926 From: nidive Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:22am Subject: Re: Commentaries are papanca-like? Dear RobertK, > According to the texts there are the worlds of arupa brahmas > where there is no rupa at all. Samsara is the rise and fall of the > khandas . But even upon khanda parinibbana of the arahant where > samsara utterly ceases forever there are still the material > remains (relics) which are conditioned by utu and which persist > for weeks, days, years or centuries. Rupas which make up rocks and > trees etc. are not part of the paticcasamuppada. Why do rupas which make up rocks and trees arise? If it is because of utu, then why does utu arise? Surely utu does not arise on its own. Utu cannot have its own efficient power. I think if we trace it backwards in this manner, we will come to the answer: nama. Because of ignorance (nama), there comes life. When there is life, utu must exist. When utu exists, rocks and trees which support life must come to existence. Rocks and trees come into existence because of 'ignorant beings' and 'ignorant beings' are supported by and are existing because of rocks and trees. If there were no trees and no plant life, there would be no food. If there is no food, 'ignorant beings' (in this case, humans) cannot come into existence. They are interdependent; they are intertwined. How do arupa brahmas arise? Surely arupa brahmas do not have their own efficient power. They depend on jhana vipaka (meaning they must have practised jhana before becoming an arupa brahma). They must have practised and mastered rupa jhanas first before being reborn as arupa brahmas. (Mastery of rupa jhanas being a requisite for practising arupa jhanas.) If we trace it backwards, arupa brahmas cannot come into existence without rupas. While I agree that samsara is the rise and fall of the khandas, I do not agree that samsara has ended upon the parinibbana of any arahat; samsara may have ended for the arahat, but samsara 'at large' is still not ended yet. Samsara may have ended for the Buddha, but samsara is still not ended yet for you and me. If we claim that samsara has ended upon the parinibbana of the Buddha, why are you and I still in samsara? Samsara has not ended yet, and the Buddha said that the end of samsara is not in sight. Therefore, we cannot say that samsara has ended upon the parinibbana of any arahat. Simply because there are still (infinity - 1) beings still in samsara. As for the relics of the Buddha or of the remains of any dead person or being, I believe we live in a very different realm than that of the deva world or brahma world. It is said that when a deva or brahma dies, they leave no trace of any physical remains behind. I believe that, if supposing, all beings were to 'vanish' together at the parinibbana of the Buddha, there would be no trace of any physical relics of the Buddha. If all beings were to 'vanish' at that (or any other) instance, all physical objects and all space near and far and outer, will simply vanish as well. There would be nothing that is matter (including space) and there would be nothing that is mind; ie. matter and mind vanish all together (and I do not mean nothingness, for nothingness is merely a mind object, a concept). Regards, NEO Swee Boon 17927 From: Dion Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:47am Subject: DSG: Dion Suppression Group Dear Dion Suppression Gang: First, I am happy to recieve the invitation to join the group. I am a Theravada Buddhist of seven years, a former Thammayut Theravada Monk in Thailand - rains-retreat counts are irrelavent as some monks are in it for the free food, free home...and are exploiters of our "religion/philosophy". I'm against most of the cosmological aspects of Mahayana Buddhism, and even some in Theravada.... I study the Tripitika with diligence, I am ardent and resolute as well in my study/practice. Somethings are to be learned from said activities. Assumptions galore were written in reference to my level of Dhamma understanding and mental development. Remember my initial "outburst" was about egotistical postings…people are demonstrating this again within their assaults upon my words and assumed intellect. Bhante Dhammapiyo, has repeated shown to me he is not worthy of my almsfood. Youthful Folly? I then won't counter with old man jokes - however aged you maybe, ok? And this is not offensive, rather defensive since you assualted me first. You don't now me, and I don't care to know a hypocritical monk. I'm a layman now, I'm allowed to make mistakes. When I was a monk, I rarely made a mistake, once I wasn't watching where I was stepping and stepped on a little trail of ants, I felt horrible about it, and confessed...that is abo= ut it. Before I speak, if not certain I find my answers in the Tripitika before I = speak from ignorance, but maybe you like to shoot off your lips without thinking. Please be a little more respectful as a sacred representative of the Budddhist Sangha, or perhaps you don't take it that seriously? I'm not being offensive to you – You should know what to say and when to say it – and it's a pathetic case when a layman needs to tell you to shape up. To Nina: I meant no offense, I'm sure the new sect of righteously practicing Shortcut Buddhists and their Sangha find it valuable, as do newcomers to Buddha's Dhamma, but I prefer the Tripitika, and I meditate on the difficult points and find other pieces of advice within potentially relating Sutta's. THE POINT I WANT TO TEACH HERE IS NOT TO BE AFRAID OF THE TRIPITIKA. Do you have other publications available, I would be interested in knowing other topics away from the Abhidhamma that you might have written on Buddhism. And I would seriously seek them out and read them as well, as I am not afraid of someone else's insight – might be valuable to agree with someone from time to time. My reference about your Abhidhamma book is that it was nothing new as I had read and studied this all in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and other books within the Abhidhamma collection. The Dion Suppression Gang might be interested in a Powerpoint presentation I delivered to my university, in relation to what the Buddha = had said about women (including the over-reaction of the Bhikkhuni debate)…but you wouldn't have all the notes or understand my points...so I refer you to your Tripitika…not my notes, but I do a great job of presenting the Buddha's words as his, though my delivery needs some work…I read too much since I don't want to get it wrong. I care. (there it is again – caring: grasping, clinging, desiring…all so wrong of me to do – to care about the Buddha's message…I'm such a failure – but this is not the point of the Dhamma!) I will refrain from further commentary in this forum - a self-censure. I try to keep it too real, too orthodox…old school…non-revisionistic. I think being a Thammayut Theravadan Buddhist, I have acquired this **cough, cough** wrong view, that I am accused of maintaining. I guess I don't want the Buddha's message being destroyed. I guess I can't stand the heat from the kitchen. Actually I can put out all the fire= s from the Dion Suppression Group, but I'm not supposed to be "offensive". Yet, I am troubled buy the ignorance in this group, especially our "esteemed" Bhante…he should clean up his thoughts as well since he is representing something a bit more "better" than the rest of us dirty, unholy laypeople. If there is "assaultual" comments send them straight to my inbox, but I won't post to the group anymore…unfortunately this was not what I had presumed it to be. I'm not exactly certain what I was looking for coming in, but found some things not right with it. I simply wanted to sweep out some "personalisms" and non-teachings from a group supposed to be studying Dhamma, but I can do this in my own solitude confinement. Peace be unto you all. I will dig deeper in my own studies, as I have much more work to do. I will peek in from time to time when I need some relevant answers....but I am silenced once I press the "send" button - direct assaults on me can be sent to my inbox like I said, to refrain others from reading junk posts. I'll respond if there is something valuable to contribute....remember DSG...assults on my posts - send directly to me...not to the forum - be respectful to them - as, so we don't make the same mistakes twice - we must learn from your mistakes, and not repeat them. Agreed Bhante???? Direct to the inbox - but I suspect you have to do your meditations, almsround, ceremonies, evening and morning chants - when do you have time for computer usage? I do not wish to offend and if I did, please look into your own failings, not mine...Bhante, I expected more from you. I'm silent and will post nothing further....Sorry all, I will disrespectfully b= e silent since others are overly-sensitive. Better to say nothing sometimes. So I will say nothing - but my father taught me that, not our Buddha. Oops that was a non-teaching. I wish you people did not learn of me in this manner, I suppose I brought it upon myself by wishing the group to be something I wanted it to be. Some posts are rather "note-worthy" and that is highly valued to me. I wish to continue reading those - as an example - the historical dialogues during the initial= counsel...I don't get an opportunity to read the commentaries much! I like those, and are full of good insight. I'm really a fine individual to = meet and speak to, but some people need to be shown their ignorance from time to time - I know my limitations already and am not afraid to talk about them. I try my best to eradicate my taints, fetters, kilesas...etc. -Dion 17928 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 27, three characteristics Hi Victor, You wrote: > How are these three characteristics to be realized? Nina: By developing right understanding of nama and rupa, so that stages of insight are progressively reached. We need a firm foundation of nama and rupa, what they are, their characteristics. We need energy and courage to be aware over and over again of one object at a time, either a nama or a rupa, so that we can become used to their characteristics. Hardness is not seeing, and when hardness appears, seeing does not appear. Lots of khanti, Victor. Nina 17929 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:20am Subject: Perfections, Patience, Ch 7, no 4 Perfections, Patience, Ch 7, no 4 We read further on in the Commentary: Patience should be further fortified by reflection: "Those who lack patience are afflicted in this world and apply themselves to actions which will lead to their affliction in the life to come." And: "Although this suffering arises through the wrong deeds of others, this body of mine is the field for that suffering, and the action which is its seed was sown by me alone." And: "This suffering will release me from the debt of that kamma." And: "If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfection of patience?" If someone else afflicts or harms us, we should not be angry, but we should realize that this is an opportunity to further develop the perfection of patience so that it becomes accomplished. We read: "Although he is a wrong-doer now, in the past he was my benefactor." And: "A wrong-doer is also a benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience." "All beings are like my own children. Who becomes angry over the misdeeds of his own children?" If we consider someone we are angry with as our child, can we continue to be angry with him? If we reflect on this we can see that what has been stated in the Commentary is true. We read: "All those phenomena by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done-- all those, at this very moment, have ceased.² Whoever may have done wrong to us or may have harmed us, his deeds have ceased at that moment, and therefore we should not continue to be angry. At this moment that person does not do wrong to us; we should not think of what is past already and continue to be angry. If we reflect on the truth in the right way, we shall understand that all those phenomena by which wrong was done, and those to whom it was done-- all those, at this very moment, have ceased. We read: ³With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should anger be aroused? When all phenomena are non-self, who can do wrong to whom?" If someone has listened to the Dhamma he has more understanding than those who have not listened. He should realize that it is not proper to be angry because someone else who has no understanding does something wrong. Why should he be angry with someone who lacks understanding? If someone remembers this he accumulates the perfection of patience, he is not angry and he can forgive that person. ***** 17930 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 28, Comm., some Pali Hi Larry, some Pali: op 20-12-2002 01:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > "How should feeling be contemplated upon?", it is asked, further. > Pleasurable feeling because it is the stuff of suffering as suffering. > Painful feeling because it is the condition of bringing out trouble and > so forth, as a thorn. And the neither pleasurable nor painful feeling, > because of non-mastery or dependence and so forth, as transiency. N: The Pali text is different, shorter. Also the order is different here and there. I dislike the word stuff so I looked it up: katha~nca vedanaa anupassitabbaati? How should feeling be contemplated upon? sukhaa taava vedanaa dukkhato, dukkhaa sallato, adukkhamasukhaa aniccato. As far as (taava) feeling is happy, as dukkha (the to is to be translated as ablative: by, or here: as), unhappy feeling as a thorn, neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling as impermanent. I did not see here non-mastery or dependence, it may be elsewhere, shall look more. Nina. 17931 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 10:34am Subject: G'day Dion G'day Dion, Sorry to read of your unhappiness. I don't think I replied to your last post, but I remember thinking how different our lives were. Me - just a middle-aged Mum in the Antipodes, who came to the Dhamma only a few years ago and who is struggling to understand and learn - you, a young man with so many wonderful opportunities and experiences already. I would like to welcome you to dsg. I wonder if you could tell me something about the time you were a "Theravada Buddhist of seven years, a former Thammayut Theravada Monk in Thailand". After leading such a fortunate life for seven years it must be hard to be a lay person again. I am not familiar with the Thammayut tradition, apart from knowing of their strict observance of the Vinaya, as you have mentioned. Can you tell me a little more? I think some of us would be interested in the presentation you made on the Bhikkhuni issue - please don't let the fact that some of us, like me, aren't very advanced in our understanding, deter you. I know I read posts and teachings, take what I am able from them, and perhaps, later, read them again and find I understand them in a different way. Understanding grows though we don't notice it happening, and those further along the way can be of great help to those of us who are not as well versed in the Dhamma. with metta, Christine --- "Dion " wrote: 17932 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 27, three characteristics Hi Nina, Thanks for responding. How does the understanding that hardness is not seeing relate to the understanding that each and every aggregate is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not self? Metta, Victor --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > > You wrote: > > How are these three characteristics to be realized? > Nina: By developing right understanding of nama and rupa, so that stages of > insight are progressively reached. We need a firm foundation of nama and > rupa, what they are, their characteristics. We need energy and courage to be > aware over and over again of one object at a time, either a nama or a rupa, > so that we can become used to their characteristics. Hardness is not seeing, > and when hardness appears, seeing does not appear. Lots of khanti, Victor. > Nina 17933 From: Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 28, Comm., some Pali Hi Nina, Thanks for the translations. I think the translator was trying to make the contemplation of each kind of feeling correspond to a particular characteristic. "Non-mastery" definitely suggests anatta, for example. This seems reasonably logical, but as you say, the text isn't quite there to support it. One thought that came to mind by the phrase "pleasure is the stuff of suffering as suffering" is that pleasure is not only impermanent and ungraspable, it is also the ultimate object and cause of all grasping: "dependent on feeling craving arises". But this was just my own thought. As for the three characteristics, I think we could say due to their interconnected logic, the correct recognition of any one of the characteristics will include the other two. "Anatta" is confusing for many people, but I think the correct perception of impermanence will carry one to path insight. Any object of satipatthana could be contemplated as anicca, or dukkha, or anatta, or all three. Larry ----------------------- Way 28: "How should feeling be contemplated upon?", it is asked, further. Pleasurable feeling because it is the stuff of suffering as suffering. Painful feeling because it is the condition of bringing out trouble and so forth, as a thorn. And the neither pleasurable nor painful feeling, because of non-mastery or dependence and so forth, as transiency. 17934 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Christine and all, Here are some questions in my mind: 1. How is the word "name" used in everyday life? 2. What does it mean by the word "name" in the context of "my name is Victor" or "my name is Christine"? In Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis of Dependent Co-arising, feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention is called name. 3. What do feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention have in common such that they are called name? Metta, Victor > Victor, I was interested to find support here for your definiteness > about 'nama' simply meaning 'name'. (Part 1) > Bhikkhu Nananda said: "It is obvious that nàma means `name', and in > the suttas also, nàma, when used by itself, means `name'. However > when we come to the commentaries we find some kind of hesitation to > recognize this obvious meaning. Even in the present context, the > commentary, Paramatthajotikà, explains the word `name' so as to mean > `bending'. It says that all immaterial states are called nàma, in the > sense that they bend towards their respective objects and also > because the mind has the nature of inclination: ârammaõàbhimukhaü > namanato, cittassa ca natihetuto sabbampi aråpaü `nàman'ti vuc cati. > And this is the standard definition of nàma in Abhidhamma com pendiums > and commentaries. The idea of bending towards an object is brought in > to explain the word nàma. It may be that they thought it too simple > an interpretation to explain nàma with reference to `name', > particularly because it is a term that has to do with deep insight. > However as far as the teachings in the suttas are concerned, nàma > still has a great depth even when it is understood in the sense of > `name'. " > > metta, > Christine 17935 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 28, Comm., some Pali > characteristic. "Non-mastery" definitely suggests anatta, for example. Hi Larry, Non-mastery in what sense? Is it non-mastery of a skill? Metta, Victor 17936 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dualism/Non-Dualism Hi Victor and all, I'm just on my way out but thought this may be of interest. In the Samyutta Nikaya, p. 130 (B. Bodhi) Book with Verses (Sagathavagga) VII. Weighed Down. 61 (1) 'Name' 203 "What has weighed down everything? What is most extensive? What is the one thing that has All under its control?" 204 "Name has weighed down everything; Nothing is more extensive than name. Name is the one thing that has All under its control." Note 121 says, in part, There is no living being or entity that is free from a name, whether the name be natural or fabricated. Even a tree or stone with no known name is still called "the nameless one". metta, Christine --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > Here are some questions in my mind: > > 1. How is the word "name" used in everyday life? > 2. What does it mean by the word "name" in the context of "my name > is Victor" or "my name is Christine"? > > In Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta, Analysis > of Dependent Co-arising, feeling, perception, intention, contact, and > attention is called name. > > 3. What do feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention > have in common such that they are called name? > > > Metta, > Victor > > > Victor, I was interested to find support here for your definiteness > > about 'nama' simply meaning 'name'. (Part 1) > > Bhikkhu Nananda said: "It is obvious that nàma means `name', and in > > the suttas also, nàma, when used by itself, means `name'. However > > when we come to the commentaries we find some kind of hesitation to > > recognize this obvious meaning. Even in the present context, the > > commentary, Paramatthajotikà, explains the word `name' so as to > mean > > `bending'. It says that all immaterial states are called nàma, in > the > > sense that they bend towards their respective objects and also > > because the mind has the nature of inclination: ârammaõàbhimukhaü > > namanato, cittassa ca natihetuto sabbampi aråpaü `nàman'ti vuc > cati. > > And this is the standard definition of nàma in Abhidhamma com > pendiums > > and commentaries. The idea of bending towards an object is brought > in > > to explain the word nàma. It may be that they thought it too simple > > an interpretation to explain nàma with reference to `name', > > particularly because it is a term that has to do with deep in sight. > > However as far as the teachings in the suttas are concerned, nàma > > still has a great depth even when it is understood in the sense of > > `name'. " > > > > metta, > > Christine 17937 From: Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 1:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 28, Comm., some Pali Hi Victor, Non-mastery in the sense of no control. I recall reading something like "the khandhas are not self because we can't control them." To my mind this isn't entirely logical but I think it is one of the reasons the Buddha gives for something not being a self. Larry -------------------- L: "Non-mastery" definitely suggests anatta, for example. V: Hi Larry, Non-mastery in what sense? Is it non-mastery of a skill? Metta, Victor 17938 From: Uan Chih Liu Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi Howard and Rob M, I want to thank you two for such a lively and thought- provocative interactions. I enjoyed following this thread. Instead of scientific vs. ethical view, however, I would like to think of them as Howard's and Rob M's view, because I tend to believe both views have great significance on ethics. Howard's view helps me to understand how this world comes to be, and helps one tremendously to picture vividly just how and why the wheel is spinning continuously. Rob M's view reminds me that the way to stop the wheel from spinning is focusing on the present moment now. Focusing on the present moment now, for my own experience, however, does include seeing vipaka as how it comes to be (Howard's view), which in turn helps me to focus on the present. The only thing I'm cautious about Howard's view is that the intermixing streams concept may lead one in thinking of a continuation of "a stream" as a continual being or spirit. In actual, there is no origin of the stream, nor continuation of a stream, so each "stream" is no more than the the water drop, isn't it? metta, Wendy 17939 From: Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] May the Force be with you, Obi-Wan Hi, Wendy - In a message dated 12/20/02 5:21:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, uanchihliu@h... writes: > > Hi Howard and Rob M, > I want to thank you two for such a lively and thought- > provocative interactions. I enjoyed following this thread. > Instead of scientific vs. ethical view, however, I would > like to think of them as Howard's and Rob M's view, > because I tend to believe both views have great significance > on ethics. Howard's view helps me to understand how > this world comes to be, and helps one tremendously to picture > vividly just how and why the wheel is spinning continuously. > Rob M's view reminds me that the way to stop the wheel from > spinning is focusing on the present moment now. Focusing on > the present moment now, for my own experience, however, does > include seeing vipaka as how it comes to be (Howard's view), > which in turn helps me to focus on the present. > > The only thing I'm cautious about Howard's view is that > the intermixing streams concept may lead one in thinking of > a continuation of "a stream" as a continual being or spirit. > In actual, there is no origin of the stream, nor continuation > of a stream, so each "stream" is no more than the the water > drop, isn't it? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: You are right, Wendy, the stream terminology, interacting or not, is a bit dangerous. These streams themselves are concept-only. Moreover, if the name 'stream' suggests continuing things, then one needs to be very careful. There is just a sequence of empty, conditioned, dependent events; in fact, there are just those events, themselves, and, in fact, each one of them is nothing in-and-of-itself. The moment we use a language term, we have to stop and say, "No, that's not quite the way it actually is!" In fact, we have to eventually stop saying anyhing at all, and just ... *see*! --------------------------------------------------------- > > metta, > Wendy > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 17945 From: uanchihliu Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) Hi Rob M, You said > Sorry Larry, today's weather has nothing to do with javana cittas. > If you get wet in the rain, the rain was simply the environment and > has no relationship to your current or past cittas or kamma. The > rain is simply the environment which has its own causes (warm > fronts, cold fronts, etc.). The fact that you are getting wet in the > rain is conditioned by two things: > 1. There is rain (the environment) > 2. You are standing outside (your vipaka) > Here's an example of how I see Howard's view also has great significance on ethics. Without seeing Howard's view, one may indeed see today's weather simply as the environment and has no relationship to one's current or past cittas or kamma when perhaps the weather may be an ecological effect due to little action of each one of us (condition resulted from many seeds as a whole). Without seeing Howard's view, what one considers kusala may be akusala, I feel. metta, Wendy 17947 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG: Dion Suppression Group --- "Dion " wrote: > > To Nina: ... > ... Do you have other publications > available, I would be interested in knowing other topics away from > the Abhidhamma that you might have written on Buddhism. A fairly complete list of Nina's writings can be found at the following website: http://www.zolag.co.uk/