19200 From: Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. Hi all, I think the main difference between an animal's awareness and satipatthana is the objectivity in satipatthana. However, we could learn from animals in that we often don't experience rupa, or even nama, but are preoccupied with a stream of concepts. Larry 19201 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear Htoo Naing, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing " wrote: < snip > To cease sufferings and extinguish all the fire(Kilesas and Sanyojanas),Citta needs to be trained diligently until the Highest Panna is attained.As it is a leader,it can train itself and its allied cetasikas as well.One can sense the existance of one's Citta.So why not possible to lead oneself to a better living and life.One should never be led by bad things and bad thought.Lead yourselves.Behave yourselves.Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. KKT: You wrote: << it (ie. Citta) can train itself >> So Citta can << control >> (at least) itself? Metta, KKT 19202 From: Star Kid Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 0:36am Subject: Dear James Dear James, I read your letter number 18681 you wrote to Janice. It's my first time writing a letter to you. I just chose any letters you sent to different people and now I am making a reply. Because this is my first letter, I will introduce myself. My name is Ki Yong Kim from Korea. I am 14 years old this year. Please introduce yourself when you make a reply. I think this is the longest letter I ever read. WOW. I read that you write poems! And I read one of your poems about your car and it was quite funny. I have some questions. I never knew there were American monks! I thought Americans are all Christians. Why do American become Buddhist monks? I don't think I have anymore questions because you never wrote a letter to me before and I don't have anything more to talk about. Sorry. I will reply when you do~ Bye From, Ki Yong 19203 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:36am Subject: Star Kids Dear All, I just received a note offlist asking about the Star Kids. I now realize that for anyone who has recently joined DSG or didn’t read my introduction note when they first started writing a few months ago that there could be some confusion as in these comments: ..... off-list friend: “Who is this star kid. I think some one is just doing some research on how to answer some basics in Buddhism. I checked up their email id and there is no club of such in Yahoo HK. Have you noticed their emails?” ..... Yes, I have noticed their emails because I’m the one who opened the ‘Starkidsclub’ and who forwards the mail to DSG;-) These Star Kids are all, so far, students of mine aged between 8 and 14 yrs old. They started writing a few months ago after one of them, Jan, wished to write a letter after her teacher died in the Bali bomb attack. It snowballed from there. They read selected posts I show them or give them to take home and just if they wish, write posts themselves. Only one that I know of comes from a Buddhist family, so their questions are mostly simple and basic -- sometimes the hardest to answer as James says. Quite a few of them have photos posted in the photo album. The reason I opened a separate yahoo account and ask them to post to that address in the first place, rather than just join DSG as some of them would prefer, is so that a)parents are unlikely to object to their young children having their own email addresses shown on a public list and b) for me to be able to ‘veto’ if the whole post is off-topic. They have to follow the same rules that everyone else does and Kom helps keep an eye on this;-) As some are only 8 or 9 years old, there are bound to be comments about toys - this is daily life for kids. I hope that by encouraging these children to write, we may all in the process learn a little more about how we can share the Buddha’s Teachings with children. Of course anyone can skip these posts and the answers that some members kindly give. ..... off-list friend:“And who knows to how many buddhist groups these viruses have subscribed themselves. Why not do a test on this guy. A planned test to see his reaction. Just a concerned thought.” ..... Just to emphasise, there is no virus and ‘this guy’ is me or rather some of my students. If anyone has children or young friends who would like to participate in the same way, I’m happy to help if I can. I also think that some of the replies written by James, Kom, Christine and others are well worth reading out at home to any youngsters. I find them very inspiring too. Some of these can be seen in Useful Posts under 'Children - letters to' http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I’d like to also mention that some of these young lives have been quite ‘transformed’ by the replies. Children who had never learnt about or discussed any religion or questions about life, now arrive and the first thing they ask me is “Are there any new letters”. I hope this clarifies a little. Thank you for the enquiry. Metta, Sarah ===== 19204 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:03am Subject: Momentous occasion nr 2 Hi all, It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link :-) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to how he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto and including murder). The fact that I am quoting these does not mean I agree with their position, or that I understand them, they are merely some things I found re Buddhist conflict resolution ( which so far sounds pretty much like "Whatever happens, do nothing with your body". Sarah, a slightly different topic, but I just love it when the star kids call you Mrs Abbott. It makes you sound like you are in your forties :-) Enough for now, hey All the best herman 19205 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:45am Subject: PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids Hi Sarah (and off-list Friend), Your post made me smile, though I can see how our Friend could easily have taken the view about the Starkids that he or she did. I thank him or her for broaching the subject, because for everyone who asks, there are ten who had the same thought but remained silent. Sarah, your mention of the photos of the Starkids means that I ought to tell everyone that they can check out Kom's great work in rearranging the photos into briefcases. Starkids are members, and are therefore in the Members' briefcase. <> Here are some links to the photos and to the individual briefcases - you will note that the links don't run over two lines. Any questions on how that was accomplished, please direct to Kom (the one with the computer skills). metta, Christine Photos: http://tinyurl.com/4wyq Members: http://tinyurl.com/4wyt Significant Others & Family http://tinyurl.com/4wyv DSG Meetings: http://tinyurl.com/4wyu Others: http://tinyurl.com/4wyx --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear All, > > I just received a note offlist asking about the Star Kids. > 19206 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samadhi,Ekagatta,Jhana & Concentration Dear Larry, Now you got it exactly. I think studying about Cetasikas will help us a lot to have a good insight into Dhamma.Would you like to discuss about the Cetasika''Vedana''?It is one of the five congregations and it is one of four Namakkhandha.What is more,we can stretch it out on to Vedananupassana,one of four Mahasatipathana which is again from 37 Bodhipakkhiya-dhamma,which are necessary in attaining the highest Panna. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > Thanks for your answer.The word "adhimokkha" means literally the releasing of the mind onto the object. Hence it has been rendered decision or resolution. It has the characteristic of conviction, the function of not groping, and manifestation as decisiveness. its proximate cause is a thing to beconvinced about. It is compared to a stone pillar owing to itsunshakable resolve regarding the object." CMA p. 82 >Larry 19207 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: rusty/buddha Dear Hilary, Heidi sounds as if she loves you a lot, wanting to lie close to your feet. What sort of dog is she? When there is a thunder storm, Rusty tries to get onto my lap. He weighs nearly 50 kg. so I don't let him or I would be squashed flat! I'm glad Heidi isn't sick anymore, when our dogs are sick or hurt we can feel so helpless and scared for them. You asked a really interesting question Hilary when you said "Do you think the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe and in good health?" The Buddha is not alive anymore - but he did teach that listening to and thinking about certain teachings could be like a blessing. Those teachings have an unusual name - Parittas. This means the Protections. When Rusty is stiff and sore from his injured leg, I sit with him and pat him slowly, and gently say 'Rusty, may you be safe and protected, may you be healthy and strong, may you be happy of heart and mind, may you live with ease and well-being". Rusty doesn't understand the words (apart from his name), but he understands the love that I am sending him in the pats and the gentle tone of my voice. I think all of us feel better when someone sends us love and speaks gently to us, don't you? metta (loving kindness) Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Dear Christine, > > My name is Hilary, I am 11.I have read some letters > about your lucky dog Rusty.I love dogs and have one of > my own call Heidi (even as I am writing this to you > she is under my legs)she will be turning two this > July.There was one time when Heidi was ill and the > whole family was worried sick about her. Do you think > the Buddha can bless the family and the dog to safe > and in good health? > > I'd love to hear more about Rusty > > Hope your dog is getting well! > > From > Hilary 19208 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi James, A few rambling thoughts below...... --- "James " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I have been meaning to reply to a post that I have now lost in mass > of other posts (ironically most of them about control). However, I > believe, if memory serves, that you and I have two main sticking > points from that post. One was about the round of becoming: I say > the Buddha said he didn't know how it originated, and you said that > he did and everything was explained in the Patthana (which when he > thought about multi-colored rays emanated from his body). The other > point was how could I deny rupa if there is a body which I > experience. Since the second one is more complicated, let's tackle > the first issue. .... S: I could certainly ditto your first sentence here. I think others replied and you found my lost post (yes, caught you talking about me behind my back I believe;-)) and we both agree that you mis-paraphrased me and you stated I mis-praphrased you. I won’t ‘tic-tac’ over that;-) I think Howard gave a very neat summary when he said: ..... H: "Now, the Patthana is an attempt at describing the varieties of relationships holding among conditioned dhammas. It serves as a parallel system, I believe, to the scheme of dependent origination. Now, whether it is due to the Buddha or not, and whether *any* of the Abhidhamma is due to the Buddha or not, I don't think that there is any contradiction between an attempt to lay bare all possible interconnections among conditioned dhammas and the fact/assumption of no first cause." .... S: In brief, I think we both can agree that ‘from an inconstruable beginning’ samsara continues on and that the Patthana contains a lot of intricate detail on conditional relations. ..... > I was surprised to learn that, yes, there is supposedly a book that > explains everything. To quote accesstoinsight.org: > ·Patthana ("The Book of Relations"). This book, by far the longest > single volume in the Tipitaka (over 6,000 pages long in the Siamese > edition), describes the 24 paccayas, or laws of conditionality, > through which the dhammas interact. These laws, when applied in every > possible permutation with the dhammas described in the Dhammasangani, > give rise to all knowable experience. .... S: Yes, it might make your Inland Revenue tome seem like light bedtime-reading, James. It starts of with a fairly simple and clear enumeration of the 24 Conditions and brief summary of these and then becomes increasingly complex. You asked about the teaching of so much detail by the Buddha. I think it’s very hard for us to have any inkling of the knowledge of the Buddha or even of Sariputta who could appreciate all this knowledge so easily. On the question of memorizing the detail, again we are referring to arahants with all the special powers who could memorize and recite until the details were written down in Sri Lanka. Monks were beginning to forget the details and hence the obvious need for this. At the First Council, I believe it took 9 months to rehearse the entire Tipitaka. I’m sure you question the purpose of these details and the applicability to life and development of wisdom. I can only stress that, just as we see on DSG, different people find it helpful to read different amounts and kinds of details. If one gets lost in the detail and it becomes just another academic subject, of course it’s quite useless. Similarly, if one doesn’t consider any detail at all, it’s dificult to see as elements those phenomena we’re used to taking for ‘wholes’ and concepts. We read this is the way to develop dispassion which as you reminded us, is so essential. I particularly liked your phrase "Dispassion is like the cooling mist that put out the flames because it is of the opposite nature." Ray gave a couple of sutta references using ‘dispassion’ too. Let me add them with a couple of comments linking them to elements and conditions: 1) From SN XII.31 "One sees with right discernment that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one is – through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from what has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one is -- through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from the nutriment by which it has come into being. One sees with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation.' Seeing with right discernment that 'from the cessation of this nutriment, what has come into being is subject to cessation,' one is -- through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance -- released from what is subject to cessation. This is how one is a person who has fathomed the Dhamma. " ***** S: Comment: conditioned phenomena. As you wrote yesterday, passion (or craving) is the cause of dukkha. Developing dispassion or equanimity towards whatever is experienced is the way to release from dukkha. ***** 2. SN XXII.23 The Blessed One said, "And which are the phenomena to be comprehended? Form is a phenomenon to be comprehended. Feeling ... Perception ... Fabrications ... Consciousness is a phenomenon to be comprehended. These are called phenomena to be comprehended. "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. [1] This is called comprehension." ***** S: Comment: passion can only be attenuated and dispassion developed through comprehension of these phenomena, aka khandhas or ultimate realities. We don’t have to call them abhidhamma or refer to the Patthana, but comprehension or wisdom has to know these actualities as they are with no self anywhere to be found. Why does such a feeling or form or consciousness arise at this moment and not another? Is it really by wishing or a self controlling or is it by a complex set of conditions, one of which is kamma? ***** Ray gave other useful quotes and wrote: "Why does dependent origination not mean we are trapped in determinism? I think it is because there can be observation without an observer, decisions without a decider, for that means our actions, our thoughts this moment have a large impact on what happens the next."..... In addition, by understanding that there really are only elements arising and falling away, the futility of passion or clinging can be seen becomes a little more apparent. It has to begin with intellectual clear view. Wars, policies, responses and actions are merely "Form.... Feeling ... Perception ... Fabrications... Consciousness....These are called phenomena to be comprehended." ..... James, finally, in a recent post to Htoo, you said that the Buddha "did not teach things that only a select few with ‘panna’ could understand." I don’t want to argue over terms, but I believe he did refer to those with little dust in their eyes that could appreciate the truths. Repeatedly we read about how ‘deep’ and ‘hard to fathom’ they are. I don’t think it matters what terms we use -- and for some it’s a lot clearer to use Pali terms, but we appreciate for others like yourself that the reverse is true -- what is important is to help each other remove that dust and to continue sharing what we understand. I’ll be glad to hear any further comments you have on any of these issues or that second point about the body not yet tackled;-) Always glad to hear from you. Metta, Sarah ====== 19209 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Hi Herman. These are indeed 'Momentous Occasions'....I have noted a 'Visuddhi-what's-it' Momentous Occasion recently too and wondered if you realised you were quoting from a Commentary;-);-) I thought at the time I'd better not say anything unless the spell might be broken..... --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi all, > > It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link :-) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html > > This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to how > he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto and > including murder). > > The fact that I am quoting these does not mean I agree with their > position, or that I understand them, they are merely some things I > found re Buddhist conflict resolution ( which so far sounds pretty > much like "Whatever happens, do nothing with your body". .... I note the qualifying legalese, but like the way you give the link and a brief summary. It's good to see what you're finding too. Perhaps others will come in with comments....I'm out of time right now. .... > > Sarah, a slightly different topic, but I just love it when the star > kids call you Mrs Abbott. It makes you sound like you are in your > forties :-) .... The sad truth, Herman, is that very, very soon I'll be dreaming of when I was .....;-( Still pretty much a kid at heart though;-) Keep up the suttas....I'm following carefully..... In appreciation, Sarah ======= 19210 From: nidive Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Hi Htoo Naing, > Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. You are right! "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). THE COMMANDER OF THE FORTRESS STANDS FOR CONSCIOUSNESS. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very fortress of existence. I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? If anyone has it, please post. Thank you. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19211 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Dear Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing > > > Hi Kom, > > Thanks for your reply. I forgot that volition is > a universal cetasika, > arising with every citta. I see that its function > is to accumulate. Does > that mean that every citta is accumulated and > becomes part of the > repository of accumulations that condition javana cittas? > As far I understand it, the accumulation (of states) is specific to Javana. You accumulates tendencies toward kusala or akusala states by way of the same kind of citta repeating in Javana 7 times. I don't think of the vipaka cittas as accumulating at all. It's not only volition that is accumulated. Other states create tendencies as well. If you are prone to anger because you experience something (and anger is obvious instead of volition being obvious), you are again prone to anger as a similar object is experienced in the future. Same thing with other akusala and kusala (including volition) states. How would you explain repository? How are all these accumulations stored? I think accumulations and habits are easier to understand. kom 19212 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids Dear Christine, > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] PHOTO NEWS + Re: Star Kids > ... > > I > told him photos are rupa; that rupa is the > reality that does not > experience anything ... ergo, the kids' photos > would not be lonely > away from the parents' photos ... really, it's > O.K. Kom, you can > trust me on this! You are not splitting up > families! :-) >> > :-) It would be to my benefit if you reminds me often about nama and rupa. I don't think I can never have enough good friends in dhamma, or enough reminders. The journey is a long long one, and is easy for me to fall off the path. Appeciative, kom 19213 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Dear Larry & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 6:02 PM > > Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness > denoted by reference to > canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a > soul, the perverted > perception, with the belief that there is a doer > and an experiencer. One > who does not uproot or remove that wrong > perception owing to > non-opposition to that perception and to absence > of contemplative > practice cannot be called one who develops > anything like a subject of > meditation. > What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and "contemplative practice"? kom 19214 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:26am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear NSB, Thanks for your code for reference. It casts a good light on the present matter when a good example is available. I like that Sutta very much. As our lives are short,why not brush up that Leader. Thanks and With Due Respect, Htoo Naing --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Htoo Naing, > > > Citta is a leader and Citta is the Leader. > > You are right! > > "I have given you this simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html > > Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very > fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very > fortress of existence. > > I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? > If anyone has it, please post. Thank you. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19215 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine and all, Thanks for your response, and for defending Herman's point of view. Do you believe there is such a thing as rationalization? I do. I think it is a frequently invoked psychological mechanism to comfort us when inner conflict arises, which in turn occurs because we are not steadfastly in tune with the "..........." Therefore, we can rationalize infinite reasons to treat a threat to our own child in one way, and that to the anonymous child another. How many parents do you know, when faced with imminent (say weeks away) danger of death of their own child from a governmental action, will be satisfied with just writing to a politician? Even their demeanor to that politician would be more respectful, one could speculate. There would be a sense of desperation, even panic at the loss. We would not expect just sending a detached, possibly angry message, then shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Did the best under the circumstances, John Howard did not listen to me, he is to blame!" This despite having the time to plan and execute 'valid' intervention that has a chance of saving even one of the lives. How many people go and try to compassionately understand the causes that lead to any war? How many Australians would try to compassionately persuade against war by traveling to Canberra, or by traveling to Baghdad? Are these options not possibilities for action, in this day and age of fast and easy travel? My point here is that we automatically prioritize our energy and action, but not our righteousness, because expression of the latter is free! Is intention for peace sufficient in and of itself? Are our consciences so easily mollified? Buddhism offers a wise, wise alternative. Dispassion, considering that everything worldly is Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. Whether one interprets that as leading to right action or no action is dependant on conditions, I presume. Further, the dhamma would not differentiate between being killed by a western bomb to that of being killed by a dagger, or a landslide, or starvation elsewhere. Nor would it prioritize the death of your child as opposed to someone else's. Why then, should we? Yet how many practice what they talk about so much? The Ven. Punna did (please see Herman's link today)! Buddhist attitude is also commendable for its consistency. It cannot be broken down by logical argument, as is the case with so many of the secular worldviews. It is a treasure amongst treasures that is underutilized. I speculate it is underutilized because we are easily deluded with rationalization (hypocrisy is a harsher word). This issue is brought to the fore because of the ongoing dialogue about war. It occurs, that the only ways war can be eventually ended is either destruction of all the participants of war - (Armageddon); or the active participation of those whose very essence radiates tolerance, peace and dispassion. Christine, please understand that I am not judging anyone or recommending any specific action. I am just trying to probe apparent inconsistencies to better understand the gap between rhetoric and practice. metta, dharam 19216 From: James Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > A few rambling thoughts below...... Hi Sarah, Thank you for the post. You have written many things that I agree with and a few things that I believe are wishful thinking. I don't see the need to say more. Looking at my thoughts and motivations with dispassion and mindfulness, I don't see a reason to say more. I have reached my conclusions about the Abhidhamma, have enumerated them enough, and anything else would be conceit. In the future, I will try to keep an eye out for non-Abhidhamma posts and threads and participate in those. Yes, replying to the Star Kids is very difficult because they ask the most basic questions. I don't reply to their letters right away, like other posts, so let them know to have patience (something kids rarely have ;-). I have also been enjoying the replies from the other members like Christine and Kom. I am seeing a side of Kom I didn't know existed! ;-) Take care, James ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are we all. 19217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: intimation through body and speech, no 5 intimation through body and speech, no 5 The ³Visuddhimagga² (XVIII, 31) uses a simile of a marionette in order to illustrate that there is no being in the ultimate sense, only conditioned phenomena. We read: Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said: ³ The mental and material are really here, ³ But here there is no human being to be found, ³For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll-- ³ Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks. When one sees a performance with marionettes, it seems that the puppets have lives of their own: they exert themselves, they are absorbed, attached or full of hatred and sorrow, and one can laugh and cry because of the story that is being enacted. However, the puppets are only wood and strings, held by men who make them act. When one sees how the puppets are stored after the play they are not impressive anymore, only pieces of wood and strings. When we study the Abhidhamma it helps us to understand more that this marionette we call ³self² can move about, act and speak because of the appropriate conditions. As we have seen in the definitions of the two kinds of intimation by the ŒDhammasangani² (§ 636, 637), these two kinds of rúpa can be conditioned by kusala citta, akusala citta or ³inoperative² citta (kiriyacitta). When we realize that intimation through body and speech is very often conditioned by akusala citta, we come to see the danger of being forgetful of nåma and rúpa while we make gestures and speak. Then we are urged to remember the Buddha¹s words as to the practice of ³clear comprehension² (sampajañña) in the ³Satipatthåna Sutta² (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension [5] ) : And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension. Footnote: 5. See the translation in ³The Way of Mindfulness² by Ven. Soma. The end. 19218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Dharam and Azita, I delay my answers to Emails because I do not like to answer on the spur of the moment. Like your questions, they deserve attention. (Sorry, friends, I still have to delay answers to other mails, but it is all in my file.) op 26-01-2003 02:18 schreef bodhi342 op bodhi342@y...: > Thank you for the reference - will try to find it. By the title, it > seems to suggest that indeed dukkha is a supporting (necessary?) > condition for faith. Nina: Yes, it is more than just a stimulant or a medicine. As mentioned before, we should note the three kinds of dukkha:1. dukkha-dukkha, pain and unpleasant feeling which are obvious. 2. Dukkha as change, separation from what is desired. 3. Dukkha as the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities which are impermanent and not worth clinging to. The third one is subtle and difficult to see. It is the understanding of this dukkha that can bring about a beginning of the reversal of the chain of the dependent origination. Let us first consider the Bodhisatta, when he encountered dukkha. We had discussions before on the subject, and I shall partly quote from old posts. When the Buddha was the Bodhisatta Sumedha, he saw: ³Even as evil exists, loveliness exists too, so as birth exists, the unborn also is to be desired. Even as a man fallen into filth, though seeing a brimming pool does not seek that pool, that is not a defect in the pool. So, though the pool of the Undying exists for the washing away the stains of the defilements, if one does not seek that pool, the defect is not in the pool of the Undying.² (Chronicle of the Buddhas IIA, Account of Sumedha) Thus, he understood that there must also be an end to rebirth and an end to defilements. We can consider what the Bodhisatta realized when he saw in the royal park an old person, a sick person and a dead person. We read about this in the "Sublime Story"(D III, 14) the story of the Bodhisatta Vipassi which is the same for all Bodhisattas. It is so simple and impressive (and more direct in Pali, Warder lesson 24, Jaran!). He asked the charioteer: <"What, good charioteer, is ending one's days?" "It means, my lord, that neither mother, nor father, nor other kinsfolk will see him any more, nor will he ever again see them." "But am I too then subject to death, have I not got beyond the reach of death? Will neither the raja, nor the ranee, nor any other of my kin see me more, or I ever again see them?"> The charioteer then answered that we are all subject to death. We may begin to see more the disadvantage of being subject to birth, old age and death. The cycle is conditioned by ignorance and clinging. We may understand the danger of ignorance and clinging and that nibbana is the end of all defilements, although we do not know this through direct experience. And wrong view of self should be eradicated first. It is so persistent. Acharn Sujin stressed again that there are three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ñåna, which is the understanding of the truth (sacca meaning truth), kicca ñåna, which is the practice of right mindfulness of nåma and rúpa (kicca meaning function) and kata ñåna, the realization of the truth (kata meaning, it has been done). As to the first round, sacca ñåna, this is the firm understanding of what is dukkha: the objects appearing at this moment. They are impermanent and thus they are unsatisfactory. We may ask ourselves why sati does not arise more frequently. The reason is, that sacca ñåna is not yet firm enough, it is not well established so that it can condition kicca ñåna, the direct awareness of one nåma or rúpa at a time. Sacca ñåna is firm understanding of the truth and the right Path, so that one does not deviate from the right Path. Hardness, seeing, visible object appear all the time in daily life, but we are still ignorant of it. > Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is > seeing, or hearing, etc. Do we want to stop seeing, thus, to stop > life now? Answer from > most people: No. > > D: Yes, I think that would indeed be the answer. > > However, the eye is dukkha, seeing is dukkha, the feelings which > arise on account of what is seen are dukkha. What are the > implications of this choice of continuing to see? Craving to see? > Attachment to both seeing and the object of sight? N:Attachment to all realities, not seeing their impermanence, their nature of dukkha. Ignorance blinds us. Dh: Would not-seeing or blindness aid in understanding to some extent? N: No, not at all. We also read in the Sutta that someone said to the Buddha: if I would be blind, deaf, asleep, it would be better for me. This is not the way. Objects impinge all the time, they should be known as they are: impermanent, dukkha, non-self. Dh: What is our state during sleep, when there may be a significant drop > off in namas: seeing, hearing etc. N: Sleep is not helpful, no opportunity to develop right understanding. That is why the Buddha said to the monks: don't be attached to sleep. Everybody can apply this in his own situation, no need to force oneself. > Dh: Related: is someone blind therefore partially or fully dead? (I ask > this in the conventional sense, which I think you were referring to, > not in terms of Anicca). N: Are you referring to A. Sujin's question above? I do not quite understand. She stressed especially what life is: one moment only, be it seeing, hearing or any other experience. Someone who is blind still has the other sense organs, and mind-door processes. He can develop right understanding of all that normally appears in his life. Dh: I hope you do not mind these questions which arise from a stimulating > response. [I feel like Vacchagotta :-) !] N: I am glad you are on this list and like your probing questions. This morning I heard on tape that A. Sujin said: the practice is not a set time, apart from the moment of understanding. Life is this moment of seeing or hearing. We do not have to delay and go to some place first. Then we lose precious moments of developing understanding. But we have to reflect on what we hear, it can only sink in slowly. Now and then I stop the tape, and I really have to consider what I heard, even though I have listened for a long time. But what we heard for years can gradually become more meaningful, I find. To Azita: I like your post with wise observations: even the famous 'patience, courage and good cheer' is 'not me, not mine, not my self'.> Nina: Gradually we discover lobha that is more subtle, our hidden motives we did not know before, and how glad I am also A. Sujin points this out all the time. I am especially impressed all the time and this time even more by:< life is in this moment.> Helps us not to see things as static. As I remarked to Larry while reading the Way, there is the word meditator, yogavacara all the time. it was explained by A. Supee: this is the *citta* that develops panna, but explained under the aspect of teaching by way of person (puggala desana). Now, even this we may take in a theoretical way: the Buddha taught by way of convention, vohara or by way of ultimate realities. This can still be like theory, it may not be very meaningful. But, as soon as we understand: life is in a moment, meditation is in a moment, this explanation becomes very meaningful, not theoretical at all. It helps us to see that understanding can be developed in a moment. What else is there but the present moment to develop understanding? Yogavacara, it can really have an impact on us. A reminder not to be neglectful. Nina. 19219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:06am Subject: Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19 Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19 The Buddha did not teach Dhamma only to monks, but also to all his followers who developed paññå. He taught Dhamma so that one can see that the truth is the truth: someone who is dear, pleasant, respected and who should be praised is a person who can endure visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes and touches. Some people do not consider and think of patience and endurance, they have not accumulated patience. We can see the danger of impatience when someone who is happy himself and without trouble, cannot stand another person¹s happiness. Someone who has accumulated a great deal of impatience cannot bear even another person¹s happiness. We read in the Commentary to the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fives, §5, ³Begrudging² (macharí) [23] about the five kinds of avarice (macchariya) of a miser: With regard to avarice as to dwelling (åvåsa), he cannot bear to see someone else in that dwelling, with regard to avarice as to family (kula), he cannot bear to see someone else visiting that family, with regard to avarice as to gain (låbha), he cannot bear someone else to obtain something, with regard to avarice as to praise (vanna), he cannot bear that people praise the good qualities of others, with regard to avarice as to Dhamma, he does not want to explain the theory of the Dhamma to someone else. This shows the importance of patience. If sati arises which is non-forgetful of kusala, one is able to have endurance. We should know what the Scriptures say about the excellence of patience and the disadvantage of impatience. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² (III), Book of the Fives, Ch XXII, § 5, Impatience, that the Buddha said: Monks, there are these five disadvantages from being impatient. What five? Not to many folk he is dear and pleasing; he is full of malevolence; there is much harm for him; he dies muddled in thought and rises in unhappy planes, such as hell planes. Monks, these are the five disadvantages from being impatient. It is true that someone who is impatient is not dear and pleasing to many people, that he has much malevolence. When one is irritated because of an unpleasant experience, he should know that accumulated inclinations are the conditions for being bad-tempered and often having aversion, more than a person who is patient. For someone who is impatient there is much harm, because he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala. Someone else cannot harm that person, only his own defilements are the cause of harm for him, and moreover, he will die muddled in thought. If someone is often impatient and overcome by anger, this can also happen when he is near death. When anger, pain or strong dislike arise, one is likely to be impatient, and at that moment he follows the inclination to akusala. Everybody has to leave this world, and when the citta is impure just before dying, it is the condition for rebirth in an unhappy plane such as hell. This is a danger much more fearsome than dangers in this world. Footnote: 23. Machariya is avarice. There are five kinds explained in the Scriptures: avarice concerning dwelling (åvasa), family (kula), that is the family which gives requisites to a monk, gain (låbha), the requisites he receives, praise (vanna) and Dhamma. 19220 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical View vs. Scientific View (a big post) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Larry > > Sati does not perceive, it is sanna that perceives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear KC,Larry and Dhamma, Now I pull the old thread.What I would like to add is that sanna cannot perceive as well.It is Citta who perceive fully everything.Sati,Sanna,vedana and all other cetasikas cannot perceive and perception is not their function. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19221 From: Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Way 43, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p.55 In the elucidation of these questions the following is said: Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity. Because of that this yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall go," that thought produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called going. The same is the method of exposition as regards the other postures: standing and so forth. There, too, the yogi knows thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall stand," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The raising upright of the whole body from below owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called standing. If there arises the thought "I shall sit," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The bending of the lower part of the body and the raising upright of the upper part of the body owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation is called sitting. If there arises the thought, "I shall lie down," that thought produces the process of oscillation. The process of oscillation produces bodily expression. The straightening or the spreading of the whole body horizontally or across, owing to the diffusion of the process of oscillation, is called lying down. [Tika] There, "who goes?" is a doer-question of the action of going, without first separating efficient cause and action (tattha ko gacchatiti sadhanam kriyañca avinibbhutam katva gamana kriya kattu puccha]. That is for indicating just the bare phenomenon of going, through the condition of denying the-doer-state-endowed-with-a-soul [sa kattubhava visittha atta patikkhepatta dhamma mattasseva gamana dassanato]. (Or in other words the question "Who goes?" anticipates a negative answer, for according to the Abhidhamma there is no doer or goer but just a process dependent on conditions. There is merely a going. No one goes.) [T] With the words, "whose going is it?", the commentator says the same thing in another way after separating efficient cause and action for making clear the absence of a doer-connection [kassa gamananti tamevattham pariyayantarena vadati sadhanam kriyañca akattu sambandhi bhava vibhavanato]. [T] "On what account is it?" This is a question for the real reason of the action of going from which the idea of a goer is rejected. [kim karanati pana patikkhitta kattukaya gamana kriyaya aviparita karana puccha]. 19222 From: Date: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Way 42: One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception ["idea of a soul"] owing to non-opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. Kom: What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and "contemplative practice"? ------------ Hi Kom, In order to uproot the idea of a soul or person, one must be mindful of the reality of body, feeling, mind, and dhamma when they arise in experience and contemplate their characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and not self. Experiencing these characteristics in these objects is the actual uprooting. What would you say? Larry 19223 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Hi Swee Boon (NEO!), You wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html Neo: "Just as the commander of the fortress is the leader of that very fortress, so is consciousness (cittas) the leader of this very fortress of existence. I like this Sutta very much. Is there any commentary on this Sutta? If anyone has it, please post. Thank you." ..... S: I find it useful too and am appreciating the points you are making. I thought I had read this sutta with more notes in one of the commentaries like the Atthasalini, but I can’t find it. In a previous post I typed out part of it (see end of post as some of the terms used in the translation are a little different) from B.Bodhi’s translation. Let me add a few commentary notes he gives which may be relevant to your discussions: Note 207,page 1428 "Spk (Commentary to SN): Why is this introduced? If that bhikkhu understood (the meaning being conveyed by the ki.msuka simile), then it is introduced to teach him the Dhamma. If he did not understand, this simile of the city is introduced to explain and clarify the meaning. Again, Spk gives a much more elaborate version of the simile and its application. In brief: The lord of the city is a prince, son of a virtuous world monarch, who had been appointed by his father to administer one of the outlying provinces. Under the influence of bad friends the prince had become dissolute and passed his time drinking liquor and enjoying music and dance. The king sent the two mesengers to admonish the prince to abandon his heedless ways and resume his duties. One messenger is a brave warrior (representing the samatha meditation subject), the other a wise minister (representing the vipassana meditation subject). The brave warrior grabs hold of the wayward prince by the head and threatens to decapitate him if he doesn’t change his ways: this is like the time the mind has been grabbed and made motionless by the concentration arisen through the first jhana. The fleeing of the prince’s dissolute friends is like the disappearance of the five hindrances when the first jhana has arisen. When the prince agrees to follow the king’s command, this is like the time the meditator has emerged from jhana. When the minister delivers the king’s command, this is like the time when the meditator, with his mind pliable through concentration, develops insight meditation. When the two messengers raise up the white canopy over the prince after he has been coronated, this is like the time the white canopy of liberation is raised over the meditator after he has attained arahantship by means of serenity and insight. ..... Note 209 "Spk identifies this as the insight-mind (vipassanaacitta, which is the prince to be coronated with the coronation of arahantship by the two messengers, serenity and insight. ..... Note 210 "Spk: Nibbana is called the "message of reality" (yathaabhuuta.m vacana.m) because in its real nature it is unshakable and immutable (yathaabuutasabhaava.m akuppa.m avikaari). ***** Hope this helps. Sarah ====== B.Bodhi transl SN 1V, Salayatanavagga, 194: 'Suppose, bhikkhu, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with six gates. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. A swift pair of messengers would come from the east and ask the gatekeeper: 'Where, good man, is the lord of this city?' He would reply: 'He is sitting in the central square.' Then the swift pair of messengers would deliver a message of reality to the lord of the city and leave by the route by which they had arrived. Similarly, messengers would come from the west, from the north, from the south, deliver their message, and leave by the route by which they had arrived. "I have made up this simile, bhikkkhu, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘The city’: this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements....’The six gates’: this is a designation for the six internal bases. "The gatekeeper’: this is a designation for mindfulness. ‘The swift pair of messengers’: this is a designation for serenity and insight (vipassana). ‘The lord of the city’: this is a designation for consciousness. ‘The cenral square’: this is a designation for the four great elements .....’A message of reality’: this is a designation for Nibbana. ‘The route by which they had arrived’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view....right concentration." ======================================= 19224 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, --- Frank Kuan wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > I appreciate your thoughts on aloneness. When I was > going to school, there were students who could work 20 > hours a week, juggle relationships and all kinds of > committments, and still excel in their studies. .... .....and I’ve never been one of them;-) ..... >My hat > off to them and off to you if you find your lifestyle > affords you as much progress in the dhamma as the more > typical success stories in the suttas. ..... .....nor a sutta ‘typical success story’;-) I hope I’ve never given that impression in either of these regards. ..... > As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of people > who have made major strides in their field, whether > worldly or unworldly, benefit from large chunks of > seclusion. > seclusion doesn't guarantee success, and has it's > difficulties as you pointed out. Just like dedicating > two hours to doing homework doesn't guarantee the > homework is going to get done or get done well. But > all else being equal, I'd say the best opportunity to > do the homework well is in seclusion than in the > company of television, friends, kids, pets, and other > distractions. And this is regardless of whether I'm a > layperson, married, ordained, whatever. ..... I certainly agree about the ‘homework in seclusion’ though some of the kids assure me they do better with the ‘television, friends, kids, pets, and other distractions’ (a little rationalization here perhaps...;-)). Certainly also for concentrated tasks - whether it be my yoga, tai chi, writing posts or office work, I find I need a fair degree of ‘seclusion’ -- to which there is a lot of attachment as well, apparent when it's 'disturbed'--, so we’re agreed up to here. When it comes to the development of satipatthana, however, I believe the picture is quite different and not determined by greater or lesser solitude. The important conditions are those which lead to the development of right understanding of realities such as listening to the good friends, considering and intellectually understanding what these realities are in the first place. I don’t doubt what you say when you remark "We all have to choose our own path. The more I practice, the more solitude I find to be necessary." I think it just depends on what one’s path and goal is. As Sukin said: "If there is understanding at this moment, does one feel propelled to *do* anything (with regard to developing sati and panna)? Even if there is confusion and restlessness, it is just that, even this knowledge is good enough for the moment. Certainly we should not be pushed to seek a quiet surrounding with the idea that sati will arise if we could just sit down and watch the breath or something. When one understands, even in theory, about the complexity of conditions and the not-self nature of it, then one does not presume that any particular thing can be done to cause sati to arise." ***** Nina (in her series of translations on ‘Dhamma Issues’ just quoted the following extract which always reminds me of just how very applicable in daily life the development of satipatthana is: Nina: Satipatthåna Sutta (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension: And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension." ***** Frank, I know I’ve quoted more than enough from texts and other posts and yet I’m going to sign off by quoting from an early post of Jon’s (no 460): Jon: "Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as being prime time for the development of the path. Implicit in the Buddha’s teaching is the potential for awareness at some evel of the reality arising at the present moment, without the need for a particular form of practice. If one understands the teachings in this light, one’s experience is bound to be wholly different from that you have given. And one of the most important differences is the absence of any idea of being able to make awareness arise by undertaking a certain form of practice. It is understanding the conditions for the arising of awareness at a time not of one’s own choosing that is the key to the development of the path." ***** Frank, I apologise if I’ve over-quoted here and I know there are many comments which you won't agree with . Always good to hear your reflections and never any hurry as far as I’m concerned for any response. Metta, Sarah ===== 19225 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi James (& A.Paul at the end), --- "James " wrote: >...... Looking at my thoughts and motivations > with dispassion and mindfulness, I don't see a reason to say more. > I have reached my conclusions about the Abhidhamma, have enumerated > them enough, and anything else would be conceit. In the future, I > will try to keep an eye out for non-Abhidhamma posts and threads and > participate in those. .... Understood and I appreciate your recent sentiments and expressions of restraint and dispassion;-) ..... > Yes, replying to the Star Kids is very difficult because they ask > the most basic questions. I don't reply to their letters right > away, like other posts, so let them know to have patience (something > kids rarely have ;-). ..... Whatever they say, there’s never any hurry as there’s always quite a time lag before I see them and show them posts (which isn’t every week by any means). Of course they'd love to meet you if you visit Hong Kong and they're around. ..... >I have also been enjoying the replies from > the other members like Christine and Kom. I am seeing a side of Kom > I didn't know existed! ;-) ..... I know - some lay it all out in the first post and others keep plenty of wit and profundity up their sleeves;-) Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If they’re easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery to you and others as well as I don’t have much idea of what’s available apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. ..... > ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as > viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are > we all. ..... Hmmm. Metta, Virus Sarah p.s A.Paul - On the subject of books, Rob M asked us to let you know that he has a Chinese version of Abhidamattha Sangaha for you when we next meet. When you visit the bookshop in Mong Kok, perhaps you could also write down any titles of books that are suitable for children or young teenagers for me too(preferably Theravada). ========== 19226 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Herman Thanks for posting this and the previous sutta, both of which are relevant to the thread about war and violence. I believe they show that one who is without defilements would not be capable of any unwholesome action through body, speech or mind. Here's another snippet (mentioned in the commentary to the Honeyball Sutta): "Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world." SN XXII, 94 There is also the well-known Simile of the Saw Sutta, which ends with the passage: "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?" "No, lord." "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn021.html Actually, the beginning part of that sutta (not included in the ATI translation) is also interesting and relevant. It describes how a monk, Phagguna, was "associating so much with bhikkhunis that if any bhikkhu spoke in dispraise of those bhikkhunis in his presence, he would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him". He was admonished to "abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life", so that if anyone should speak in dispraise of the bhikkhunis, or should even assault them, or should assault himself, he should train himself to be unaffected by that, to utter no evil words, to dwell without inner hate. MN 21 Jon --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi all, > > It is almost becoming cliche, Herman is posting another sutta link > :-) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-088.html > > This one is about Punna, who answers the Buddha's questions as to > how > he will handle different levels of violence towards himself (upto > and > including murder). 19227 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:01am Subject: The Language of the Heart http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/boowa/straight.html The Language of the Heart The Venerable Acariya Mun taught that all hearts have the same language. No matter what one's language or nationality, the heart has nothing but simple awareness, which is why he said that all hearts have the same language. When a thought arises, we understand it, but when we put it into words, it has to become this or that language, so that we don't really understand one another. The feelings within the heart, though, are the same for everyone. This is why the Dhamma fits the heart perfectly, because the Dhamma isn't any particular language. The Dhamma is the language of the heart. The Dhamma resides with the heart. Pleasure and pain reside with the heart. The acts that create pleasure and pain are thought up by the heart. The heart is what knows the results that appear as pleasure and pain; and the heart is burdened with the outcome of its own thoughts. This is why the heart and the Dhamma fit perfectly. No matter what our language or nationality, we can all understand the Dhamma because the heart and the Dhamma are a natural pair. The heart forms the core within the body. It's the core, the substance, the primary essence within the body. It's the basic foundation. The conditions that arise from the mind, such as thought-formations, appear and vanish, again and again. Here I'm referring to the rippling of the mind. When the mind ripples, that's the formation of a thought. Labels, which deal with conjecturing, memorizing, and recognizing, are termed sañña. 'Long' thoughts are sañña; short thoughts are sankhara. In other words, when a thought forms -- 'blip' -- that's a sankhara. Sañña refers to labeling and recognizing. Viññana refers to the act of taking note when anything external comes and makes contact with the senses, as when visible forms make contact with the eye and cognition results. All of these things are constantly arising and vanishing of their own accord, and so the Buddha called them khandhas. Each 'heap' or 'group' is called a khandha. These five heaps of khandhas are constantly arising and vanishing all the time. Even arahants have these same conditions -- just like ordinary people everywhere -- the only difference being that the arahants' khandhas are khandhas pure and simple, without any defilements giving them orders, making them do this or think that. Instead, their khandhas think out of their own free nature, with nothing forcing them to think this or that, unlike the minds of ordinary people in general. To make a comparison, the khandhas of ordinary people are like prisoners, constantly being ordered about. Their various thoughts, labels, assumptions, and interpretations have something that orders and forces them to appear, making them think, assume, and interpret in this way or that. In other words, they have defilements as their boss, their leader, ordering them to appear. Arahants, however, don't. When a thought forms, it simply forms. Once it forms, it simply disappears. There's no seed to continue it, no seed to weigh the mind down, because there's nothing to force it, unlike the khandhas governed by defilements or under the leadership of defilements. This is where the difference lies. But their basic nature is the same: All the khandhas we have mentioned are inconstant (aniccam). In other words, instability and changeability are a regular part of their nature, beginning with the rupa khandha, our body, and the vedana khandha, feelings of pleasure, pain, and indifference. These things appear and vanish, again and again. Sañña, sankhara, and viññana are also always in a state of appearing and vanishing as a normal part of their nature. But as for actual awareness -- which forms the basis of our knowledge of the various things that arise and vanish -- that doesn't vanish. We can say that the mind can't vanish. We can say that the mind can't arise. A mind that has been purified thus has no more problems concerning the birth and death of the body and the khandhas; and thus there is no more birth here and there, appearing in crude forms such as individuals or as living beings, for those whose minds have been purified. But those whose minds are not purified: They are the ones who take birth and die, setting their sights on cemeteries without end, all because of this undying mind. This is why the Lord Buddha taught the world, and in particular the world of human beings, who know right and wrong, good and evil; who know how to foster the one and remedy the other; who understand the language of the Dhamma he taught. This is why he taught the human world above and beyond the other worlds: so that we could try to remedy the things that are harmful and detrimental, removing them from our thoughts, words, and deeds; try to nourish and foster whatever goodness we might already have, and give rise to whatever goodness we don't yet have. He taught us to foster and develop the goodness we already have so as to nourish the heart, giving it refreshment and well-being, giving it a standard of quality, or goodness, so that when it leaves its present body to head for whatever place or level of being, this mind that has been constantly nourished with goodness will be a good mind. Wherever it fares, it will fare well. Wherever it takes birth, it will be born well. Wherever it lives, it will live well. It will keep on experiencing well-being and happiness until it gains the capacity, the potential, the accumulation of merit it has developed progressively from the past into the present -- in other words, yesterday is today's past, today is tomorrow's past, all of which are days in which we have fostered and developed goodness step by step -- to the point where the mind has the firm strength and ability, from the supporting power of this goodness, that enables it to pass over and gain release. Such a mind has no more birth, not even in the most quiet or refined levels of being that contain any latent traces of conventional reality (sammati) -- namely, birth and death as we currently experience it. Such a mind goes completely beyond all such things. Here I'm referring to the minds of the Buddhas and of the arahants. There's a story about Ven. Vangisa that has a bearing on this. Ven. Vangisa, when he was a layman, was very talented in divining the level of being in which the mind of a dead person was reborn -- no matter who the person was. You couldn't quite say he was a fortuneteller. Actually he was more a master of psychic skills. When anyone died, he would take that person's skull and knock on it -- knock! knock! knock! -- focus his mind, and then know that this person was reborn there, that person was reborn here. If the person was reborn in hell or in heaven, as a common animal or a hungry ghost, he could tell in every case, without any hesitation. All he needed was to knock on the skull. When he heard his friends say that the Buddha was many times more talented than this, he wanted to expand on his knowledge. So he went to the Buddha's presence to ask for further training in this science. When he reached the Buddha, the Buddha gave him the skull of an arahant to knock on. 'All right, see if you can tell where he was reborn.' Ven. Vangisa knocked on the skull and listened. Silence. He knocked again and listened. Silence. He thought for a moment. Silence. He focused his mind. Silence. He couldn't see where the owner of the skull was reborn. At his wit's end, he confessed frankly that he didn't know where the arahant was reborn. At first, Ven. Vangisa had thought himself talented and smart, and had planned to challenge the Buddha before asking for further training. But when he reached the Buddha, the Buddha gave him the skull of an arahant to knock on -- and right there he was stymied. So now he genuinely wanted further training. Once he had further training, he'd really be something special. This being the way things stood, he asked to study with the Buddha. So the Buddha taught him the science, taught him the method -- in other words, the science of the Dhamma. Ven. Vangisa practiced and practiced until finally he attained arahantship. From then on he was no longer interested in knocking on anyone's skull except for his own. Once he had known clearly, that was the end of the matter. This is called 'knocking on the right skull.' Once the Buddha had brought up the topic of the mind that doesn't experience rebirth -- the skull of one whose mind was purified -- no matter how many times Ven. Vangisa knocked on it, he couldn't know where the mind was reborn, even though he had been very talented before, for the place of a pure mind's rebirth cannot be found. The same was true in the case of Ven. Godhika: This story should serve as quite some food for thought. Ven. Godhika went to practice meditation, made progress step by step, but then regressed. They say this happened six times. After the seventh time, he took a razor to slash his throat -- he was so depressed -- but then came to his senses, contemplated the Dhamma, and became an arahant at the last minute. That's the story in brief. When he died, Mara's hordes searched for his spirit. To put it simply, they stirred up a storm, but couldn't tell where he had been reborn. So the Lord Buddha said, 'No matter how much you dig or search or investigate to find the spirit of our son, Godhika, who has completely finished his task, you won't be able to find it -- even if you turn the world upside down -- because such a task lies beyond the scope of conventional reality.' How could they possibly find it? It's beyond the capacity of people with defilements to know the power of an arahant's mind. In the realm of convention, there is no one who can trace the path of an arahant's mind, because an arahant lies beyond convention, even though his is a mind just the same. Think about it: Even our stumbling and crawling mind, when it is continually cleansed without stop, without ceasing, without letting perseverance lag, will gradually become more and more refined until it reaches the limit of refinement. Then the refinement will disappear -- because refinement is a matter of conventional reality -- leaving a nature of solid gold, or solid Dhamma, called a pure mind. We too will then have no more problems, just like the arahants, because our mind will have become a superlative mind, just like the minds of those who have already gained release. All minds of this sort are the same, with no distinction between women and men, which is simply a matter of sex or convention. With the mind, there is no distinction between women and men, and thus both women and men have the same capacity in the area of the Dhamma. Both are capable of attaining the various levels of Dhamma all the way to release. There are no restrictions that can be imposed in this area. All that is needed is that we develop enough ability and potential, and then we can all go beyond. For this reason, we should all make an effort to train our hearts and minds. At the very least, we should get the mind to attain stillness and peace with any of the meditation themes that can lull it into a state of calm, giving rise to peace and well-being within it. For example, mindfulness of breathing, which is one of the primary themes in meditation circles, seems to suit the temperaments of more people than any other theme. But whatever the theme, take it as a governing principle, a refuge, a mainstay for the mind, putting it into practice within your own mind so as to attain rest and peace. When the mind begins to settle down, we will begin to see its essential nature and worth. We will begin to see what the heart is and how it is. In other words, when the mind gathers all of its currents into a single point, as simple awareness within itself, this is what is called the 'mind' (citta). The gathering in of the mind occurs on different levels, corresponding to the mind's ability and to the different stages of its refinement. Even if the mind is still on a crude level, we can nevertheless know it when it gathers inwardly. When the mind becomes more and more refined, we will know its refinement -- 'This mind is refined... This mind is radiant... This mind is extremely still... This mind is something extremely amazing' -- more and more, step by step, this very same mind! In cleansing and training the mind for the sake of stillness; in investigating, probing, and solving the problems of the mind with discernment (pañña) -- which is the way of making the mind progress, or of enabling us to reach the truth of the mind, step by step, through the means already mentioned -- no matter how crude the mind may be, don't worry about it. If we get down to making the effort and persevere continually with what diligence and persistence we have, that crudeness will gradually fade away and vanish. Refinement will gradually appear through our own actions or our own striving until we are able to go beyond and gain release by slashing the defilements to bits. This holds true for all of us, men and women alike. But while we aren't yet able to do so, we shouldn't be anxious. All that is asked is that we make the mind principled so that it can be a refuge and a mainstay for itself. As for this body, we've been relying on it ever since the day we were born. This is something we all can know. We've made it live, lie down, urinate, defecate, work, make a living. We've used it, and it has used us. We order it around, and it orders us around. For instance, we've made it work, and it has made us suffer with aches here and pains there, so that we have to search for medicine to treat it. It's the one that hurts, and it's the one that searches for medicine. It's the one that provides the means. And so we keep supporting each other back and forth in this way. It's hard to tell who is in charge, the body or us. We can order it around part of the time, but it orders us around all the time. Illness, hunger, thirst, sleepiness: These are all nothing but a heap of suffering and stress in which the body orders us around, and orders us from every side. We can order it around only a little bit, so when the time is right for us to give the orders, we should make it meditate. So. Get to work. As long as the body is functioning normally, then no matter how much or how heavy the work, get right to it. But if the body isn't functioning normally, if you're ill, you need to be conscious of what it can take. As for the mind, though, keep up the effort within, unflaggingly, because it's your essential duty. You've depended on the body for a long time. Now that it's wearing down, know that it's wearing down -- which parts still work, which parts no longer work. You're the one in charge and you know it full well, so make whatever compromises you should. But as for the heart, which isn't ill along with the body, it should step up its efforts within, so that it won't lack the benefits it should gain. Make the mind have standards and be principled -- principled in its living, principled in its dying. Wherever it's born, make it have good principles and satisfactory standards. What they call 'merit' (puñña) won't betray your hopes or expectations. It will provide you with satisfactory circumstances at all times, in keeping with the fact that you've accumulated the merit -- the well-being -- that all the world wants and of which no one has enough. In other words, what the world wants is well-being, whatever the sort, and in particular the well-being of the mind that will arise step by step from having done things, such as meditation, which are noble and good. This is the well-being that forms a core or an important essence within the heart. We should strive, then, while the body is still functioning, for when life comes to an end, nothing more can be done. No matter how little or how much we have accomplished, we must stop at that point. We stop our work, put it aside, and then reap its rewards -- there, in the next life. Whatever we should be capable of doing, we do. If we can go beyond or gain release, that's the end of every problem. There will then be nothing to involve us in any turmoil. Here I've been talking about the mind because the mind is the primary issue. That which will make us fare well or badly, meet with pleasure or pain, is nothing else but the mind. As for what they call bad kamma, it lies within the mind that has made it. Whether or not you can remember, these seeds -- which lie within the heart -- can't be prevented from bearing fruit, because they are rooted in the mind. You have to accept your kamma. Don't find fault with it. Once it's done, it's done, so how can you find fault with it? The hand writes and so the hand must erase. You have to accept it like a good sport. This is the way it is with kamma until you can gain release -- which will be the end of the problem. ~meththa ranil 19228 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James (& A.Paul at the end), > > Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably > Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If > they're easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. > Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for > them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a > book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery > to you and others as well as I don't have much idea of what's available > apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. Virus Sarah ;-), I'm afraid there isn't much available for children and young adults concerning Buddhism. It goes from Jataka Tales to the Dali Lama; not much middle ground. That is why, as I wrote to you off-list, I am currently writing a book directed toward children and young adults. It is tentatively titled, "Buddha Smile; Buddhist Inspiration for the Young and Young-At-Heart" It will contain my letters to the Star Kids, some inspirational writings, meditation instructions in simple terms (One technique I call 'Toothpaste Tube Meditation') and various Buddhist stories of inspiration...and everything sprinkled with my wacky sense of humor. Until I finish with that, I could recommend two cartoon books titled 'Zen Speaks' and "Tao Speaks'. They are pretty entertaining in drawing, but the language and concepts are, unfortunately, very adult. Metta, James 19229 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ranil gunawardena" < dearranil@h...> wrote: Hi Ranil, I very much like this post and agree with it. But it is very difficult for most to understand. I wrote a post to Sarah once that stated that she had forgotten what the heart knows. To my surprise, some other members and she thought I had suggested that she had no heart! LOL! Oh well. I am glad that you have posted such a thorough explanation of what I was trying to say at that time. Metta, James 19230 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Sarah, you wrote: Frank, I apologise if I've over-quoted here and I know there are many comments which you won't agree with . Always good to hear your reflections and never any hurry as far as I'm concerned for any response. --------------------- Quoting and sutta citation is good, and I agree with most of your comments (with conditions and in some cases in a slightly different context which can mean the difference between nibanna and hell :-). Letting go of attachments to certain types of dhamma practice and shifting of strategy of mindfulness have a proper order, as I understand the suttas, and if certain practices are let go of prematurely, then it can lead to massive suffering. I crave enlightenment. I'm deeply attached to the dhamma, crave and cling deeply to seclusion, developing right concentration in the canonical sense, i.e. JHANAS, cling to virtue, cling to right speech, etc. As long as I have not crossed the ocean of samsara, it is right that I should cling to the raft. It is proper to crave and cling to these things that are conducive to cessation of dukkha until such time they are no longer necessary (i.e. full liberation). The raft should not be abandoned prematurely. Unless we are non-returners, it is quite premature to talk about letting go of clinging to dhamma theory, letting go of right concentration. Craving to every type of object, subtle, gross, wholesome and unwholesome, have to be let go of eventually, but in the right order. Serendipitously, I came across this great passage last night. [m122.3] "Ananda, an [an aspirant determined to attain full liberation] does not shine by delighting in company...by rejoicing in society. Indeed, Ananda, it is not possible that [an aspirant] who ... devotes himself to delight in company, ... will ever obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment [i.e. the bliss of right concentration/jhanas]. But it can be expected that when [an aspirant] lives alone, withdrawn from society, he will obtain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the bliss of reunciation, ..., the bliss of enlightenment." ----- This excerpt unequivocally states the necessity of seclusion to properly develop jhanas (i.e. right concentration). And right concentration is necessary to develop the penetrating insight into reality that could lead to full liberation. I frequently see posts here that talk about cheetahs and atomic moments happening in such a way. How do you know that's true? How could you ever verify that without right concentration (um, JHANA!) and witnessing it directly? And even after full enlightenment, I do not recall a single case of an enlightened being in the suttas saying, "now you can stop the practice of seclusion and jhanas." The buddha and arahants always say, "we practice seclusion and jhanas for a pleasant abiding here and now, and also to set a firm example for future generations of cultivators [who might otherwise develop pernicious views of alternate paths to nibbana that do not include jhanas and seclusion]. It's not like 3 out of 4 arahants surveyed recommended continuing the practice of seclusion and jhanas. It's 10 out of 10, 9000 out of 9000. 100%. Every single samma sambuddha and arahant interviewed emphasized the practice of seclusion and jhanas in the pali suttas. Even bodhisattvas on a mahayana path with lots of socializing have to practice seclusion and jhanas. In suttas outlining the practice of the gradual path leading to enlightenment (m107 and m125 to name a couple of examples), you see seclusion and jhanas as integral parts of the gradual training. If you have 7 relay chariots (vissudhimagga) and one of the chariots is missing, you're not going to make it! I have never seen a pali sutta that talked about any other type of path, for example a path that emphasized study of abidhamma theory and mindfulness practice to the neglect of jhanas and seclusion that could lead to full liberation. At least that's my understanding of the pali suttas, and also what my intellect and intuition tell me as well. People of course have different accumlations, different obstacles, and encounter difficulties with certain essential buddhist practices. It might be pragmatic to put difficult practices aside for a short time, or even experiment with creative modifications, as a temporary measure. But if one is set on full liberation, whether monk or layperson, there is no other path (omitting any of the 8 limbs of 8fold path) that can lead to purification of mind and complete destruction of the taints. -fk 19231 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling > Jon: "Granted there are many references to solitude and sitting at the > roots of trees etc. But a skilful reading of the whole Tripitika shows > clearly that the Buddha urged his listeners, both monks and laypeople, to > develop the path in the course of the life they were living from day to > day. He did not urge them to set aside time from their daily routine for > practice, nor did he nominate any special time or place of practice as > being prime time for the development of the path. That's because for the serious aspirant, ALL THE TIME is the time to practice the 8fold path, not just a designated time here and there. Now a monk is going to be restricted to one meal a day before midday, but as far as the detailed and regimented instructions for the path to liberation, including the proper way to eat and devote ourselves to wakefulness, specific details abound. For example, in the practice of wakefulness, there is walking meditation, sitting meditation, a specific type of sleeping posture that would be conducive to a dull but conscious state of mind to get fully rested without becoming fully unconsciouss and dream, there is a proper time to wake, resume walking and sitting meditation (1st watch of night, 2nd watch of night, etc, commentaries detail the hour of day). For the layperson, the exact time of a meal would vary, but the proper way to eat remains the same for layperson and monk. Eating should be for nutrition only, to sustain this body, our vehicle to attain liberation. Eating should not be for entertainment, flavor, socializing. Similarly, the 4 nutriments are to be regarded in certain ways as we are performing those actions. We eat as if eating the flesh of... crossing the desert. We regard contact, volition, consciousness nutriments in a certain way. The exact time of day to do this practice of course is not specified. There are specifics outlining RIGHT CONCENTRATION, i.e. lower state has sustained thought, joy and rapture, higher state only has pure equanimity. Cultivators spend anywhere from one hour to 7 days absorbed in RIGHT CONCENTRATION. -fk 19232 From: fcckuan Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 19233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Larry, op 28-01-2003 02:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thinking about this some more, I agree vipassana isn't discursive. When > the commentary says, "his mindfulness is established with the thought > 'The body exists.'", this isn't a thought with words but rather an > understanding/experience. Similarly in Way 42 there is a comparison of > the awareness of deportment in animals and the awareness of sati > sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative or philosophical but > mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by careful noticing and > perhaps contemplative reflection. Nina: good reminder Larry, like Kom I can never have enough. Can Kom add something about this careful noticing, as a reminder for us? Nina 19234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment, some Pali Hi Kom and Larry, here is the Pali of the relevant Tika text: tato eva attasa~n~na.m ``atthi attaa kaarako vedako''ti eva.m pavatta.m vipariitasa~n~na.m na ugghaa.teti naapaneti apa.tipakkhabhaavato, ananabruuhanato vaa. Therefore indeed the perception of self (atta sa~n~naa)ocurs that there is a self who acts or feels, and he does not abolish nor abandon this distorted perception because he does not develop the opposite quality (pa.tipakkha), he does not applies himself to development. eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. ( I had trouble with: eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto, kuto is how or from where. cassa is ca assa.) Now the meaning of opposite quality: we have to go back to the Way 25: two kinds of abandoning: by suppression (in samatha), vikkhambhana vinaya and the eradication by developing the opposites, tada"nga vinaya: this is the development of insight. Thus that is referred to here, I think, by pa.tipakkha: the development of the perception of impermanence to eradicate the wrong view of permanence, etc. op 28-01-2003 17:20 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > >> Way 42: [T] From the sort of mere awareness >> denoted by reference to >> canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a >> soul, the perverted >> perception, with the belief that there is a doer >> and an experiencer. One >> who does not uproot or remove that wrong >> perception owing to >> non-opposition to that perception and to absence >> of contemplative >> practice cannot be called one who develops >> anything like a subject of >> meditation. >> > > What is meant by "non-opposition to that perception" and > "contemplative practice"? 19235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Ha Herman, Hoe gaat het met je? See below. op 26-01-2003 04:03 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: >> Nina: Life is only one moment of experiencing an object. Life is > seeing, or >> hearing, etc. > I wonder why it is OK in Buddhism to have the separation of what is > essentially a unity / oneness into experience (verb), the object > (noun) of experience, the flavour of the object (adverb, adjective) > but on no account can there be a subject (pronoun)? N: This is a difficult question for me. Subject and object are loaded terms and if I would use them, I might twist the meaning that you intended, because I am not trained in philosophy. On the other hand, when we consider that which can be directly experienced, we can use any names, it does not matter how we call phenomena. Seeing is an experience, it experiences an object, visible object or colour. We can use of course the terms subject experiences object, but we have to be careful. An experience, such as seeing can be known by another experience. That is why I would avoid the word subject. You speak about a unity, and certainly what is experienced, the object, conditions the experience by way of object condition. Phenomena are different but they are related to each other in as far as they are conditions for each other. To give an example: visible object conditions seeing by being an object, but it is totally different from seeing. Visible object does not know at all that seeing experiences it. Eyesense is another conditions for seeing. Eyesense does not see, it does not experience anything, it merely is the physical base and doorway for seeing. Mind and body are a unity in as far as they condition one another, but they are not the same. H: Surely the distinction between verb, noun, adjective, adverb and > pronoun is conceptual and non-self. (snipped) > > It is considered to be a stage of insight to be able to differentiate > between nama and rupa. But why wouldn't it be a stage of insight to > realise that the particular nama/rupa (which really is one, not two) > is only happening to the subject? "I see blue" incorporates the > awareness that there are also other things happening (the precise > nature of which is unknown but including other subjects who are aware > thusly "I see yellow" "I smell a rose fragrance" etc etc.) N: Certainly, a lot of things are happening! But you know, every phenomenon is very momentary. We can use the words subject and object but let us not forget that they are so momentary. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, they just happen in a moment. That is why a lot of things happen in split seconds. After seeing, thinking arises that thinks of "I see blue". But this has a characteristic different from seeing. Each phenomenon has its own characteristic and it shows this characteristic. These characteristics do not change. Seeing only experiences colour, it is not angry, it is not attached. Anger and attachment are qualities that can accompany other moments of cognition. As A. Sujin stressed: the dhamma is so useful, it teaches us to develop our own understanding. We do not have to believe someone else, or even the scriptures. We read that the five khandhas are non-self, but if we keep on reasoning about this truth, it will not help us much. We should try to find out the reason why it is so difficult for us to see the truth directly, what is in the way? Personality belief (sakkaya ditthi). We can define this, explain this, but it does not help sufficiently. We have to find out for ourselves what it is when it arises. As Azita said, lobha is so very subtle. When we are thinking about different things, when we go about in daily life, perform different actions, is there a subtle clinging to the idea of "I do this"? Or, "this is my opinion"? I find more and more that we have to be very honest, and that there are so many things in life we can discover, little by little. I also think of patience to slowly consider what we learn, to let it sink in, as I wrote before. I should myself consider more that patience is the highest ascetism, as the Buddha explained in the exhortation to the Patimokkha. Deprivation of food and sleep may be easier than patience to really listen to the Dhamma, consider it slowly, let it sink in and apply it by mindfulness of different characteristics. I like to quote again what Jon wrote, because this time something else strikes me here as a reminder for myself, the contrast between intellectual knowledge and direct understanding : <- repeated listening to/reading of the actual teachings (the Tipitaka) and their commentaries, - reflecting on what has been heard or studied and - applying what has been understood from the listening and reflecting. To many people this sounds like a purely intellectual exercise, but properly understood it is much more than that. It is or can be a condition for a better understanding of the presently arising reality. I think part of the reason for the scepticism that many have about this is that there's no immediate and direct 'result'. The results come in their own good time. The accumulation of understanding is very gradual and subtle and is absolutely not self (as in the adze-handle simile).> This is important: it is not a purely intellectual exercise. That is why A. Sujin stressed: no words are needed. Learn characteristics that appear. And the result: it comes in its own good time. We have to think of the chicks who are in the eggshell of ignorance and craving. Courage is needed to go on developing understanding. H: It is said the Buddha and others possessed of higher powers > could "read" the mind of others. Surely they would be able to > distinguish between the mind of the other and their own mind. To be > able to describe this situation don't you need pronouns (which do not > require the idea of self)? N: No need of any word, it was higher, direct knowledge. The Buddha did not need any words to attain Buddhahood. Herman, I do not know whether all this is of any help to you, I just tried as much as I was able to. I think Howard can add a few things about subject and object. Lodewijk thanks you for your kind greetings. He said to tell you that he is still struggling with Bach's Wohltemperiertes Klavier, All the best, also for your family, Nina. 19236 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: akusala citta, akusala kamma Dear Htoo, Thank you for your posts. I like the way you end them, with a good wish and some advice. See below op 27-01-2003 17:37 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, >> nina van gorkom wrote: >> Intimation through body and speech. no 2 >> We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily >> intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. > So,if citta is Akusala it will cause Akusala Kamma.If Kusala,Kusala > Kamma.If Abyakata there will be no more Kamma.Kiriyacittas(Abyakata) > are Javanacittas of Arahats and they won't give rise to any Kamma. N: Not every akusala cittamotivates akusala kamma, certain factors are needed so that it will be akusala kamma that can cause akusala vipaka. If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people. Also when waving cheerfully, there need not be wrong view all the time. It can be with lobha but without wrong view , or with metta. But as you say, the gestures depend on cittas. One more point. Sometimes, but not always, the bodily intimation can be a doorway of kamma. You will read this in my translation later on. Someone gives an order to kill by gesture. See Atthasalini. H: If we wave people we know well with cheerful mind,the javanacittas > happening at that time will be ''Somanassa sahagatan ditthigata- > sampayottakanan asankharika cittas'' that is The Mind State that has > cheerfulness(Piti),misbelieving(ditthi)(actual dhamma are thought as > people,man,woman)along with Moha,Lobha,Ahirika,Anuttappa,Udicca and > 13 other Cetasikas. > > The gestures depend on Cittas.I hope it will clerify your queries. 19237 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupas and insight op 27-01-2003 17:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> when >> our eyes are open it seems that it is light all the time. In > reality there >> is light only when seeing, and not at all the other moments. Seeing > is >> interrupted by many cittas arising in different processes. N: Of course I agree with the different objects experienced through the relevant doorways. Mybe I was not clear enough. The above is merely an illustration that we are so ignorant of what is really happening. A way to check ourselves. Nina 19238 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing Hi Kom and Larry, op 27-01-2003 07:04 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: >> From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] >> Way 41: In this section on breathing, the >> mindfulness which examines the >> respirations is the Truth of Suffering. The >> pre-craving which brings >> about that mindfulness is the Truth of >> Origination. Kom: 1) Mindfulness is the truth of suffering because it too is > anicca, dukkha, and anatta. > 2) The pre-craving that brings about the mindfulness. This > is very interesting. For samatha development, this could be > a craving for peacefulness (of concentration / jhana) or for > higher existence, and for insight, the craving for the > insights / feelings associated with insights / results of > insights (attainment). Nina: As I wrote precraving is former craving, purima tanha. Can we say: we are born because there is still craving. Thus, this former craving, stemming also from the past lives, conditions our whole life now which is dukkha, and thus also mindfulness is dukkha. But there is a way to its cessation. I would like to hear Num also. Nina. 19239 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:20am Subject: (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helper Dear Dhamma Friends, Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually mind has as army of soldiers(mental factors) led by the general(Citta) or the king or the leader.When citta works like a king,accompanying cetasikas work as ministers.Ministers advise the king and the king does all the action.So,for everything,the king is responsible. There are four sets of ministers. 1.Permanent ministers(Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas) 2.Flexible ministers(Pakinnaka Cetasikas) 3.Destructive ministers(Akusala Cetasikas) 4.Constructive ministers(Kusala Cetasikas) Cetasika cannot perceive senses,which is function of citta.But their accompaniment makes the citta different names.So they can be conferred designers.Cetasikas help citta,advise citta,drive citta and do have many effects on citta.But citta behaves itself and always leads all the mental bodies. May you all have a clearer view on Cetasikas. Htoo Naing 19240 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 0:05pm Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam and all, Please be at ease Dharam - I don't think you are judging anyone or recommending any course of action. I think you use writing to reflect upon and clarify your own thoughts - as do a number of us on this list. My previous discussion was about real actions being taken by some of us, regarding the real situations we are faced with in the moment to moment course of our lives. These come complete with personal and legal responsibilities, as well as with the limitations imposed by the small size of our financial resources and disposable income. When I am having to choose between, say, paying veterinary bills for Rusty, keeping a roof our heads, and replacing my ten year old car because I drive on rural roads at night (no luxury like public transport in my area) - I cannot afford to 'just jump on a plane' for a 2400 kilometre round trip to see my Parliamentary Representative. Perhaps incomes are greater, and air travel less expensive in America? I need to decide what action will be most effective and what action will be least harmful. (Impulsive action would bring penalties from my employer, and I need a job to live in this world. But most of all, travelling to Canberra would not be effective action, as my electorate is held by a Member of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, not by a member of the Governing Party). I am working within what is possible in a real situation. The hypothetical scenario you create is unreal and will not arise in this country in the forseeable future. As well, you seem to be projecting your own ideas of how others must be feeling and what their motives, intentions and shortcomings must be. Such surmising is all 'just thinking'... though a satisfying pastime, without doubt. I understand your words to be a variation of 'an unexamined life is not worth living'. If so, I agree. It is good for everyone to look at their *own* behaviour and see how closely they are living up to the guiding principles, the Teachings, that inform their ethical and spiritual life. One can only examine one's own mind and the actions that proceed from it, one cannot know the citta of another. Have you tried any initiative with respect to world peace that has proven more possible and effective than letter writing, telephone calls to decison makers, attendance at rallies and marches, and financial contributions to those organisations judged as effectively working for peace or assisting refugees? I would be very interested to hear about your own compassion-in-action, as opposed to armchair action and intellectual musings (articulate and enjoyable as they are). Unless you are a proponent of quietism, I am sure I could learn much from hearing of the practical application of your own spiritual beliefs in daily life. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: 19241 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 0:31pm Subject: Sanna, citta, panna was ..vs. Scientific View (a big post) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing < > > Dear KC,Larry and Dhamma, > Now I pull the old thread.What I would like to add is that sanna > cannot perceive as well.It is Citta who perceive fully > everything.Sati,Sanna,vedana and all other cetasikas cannot perceive > and perception is not their function. > > _________________ Dear Htoo, I add some more; The visuddhimagga Xiv3 "for though the state of knowing (janana-bhava) is equally presnt in perception(sanna), nevertheless perception is the mere perceiving of an object as , say, blue or yeelow; it cannot bring about the penetration of its characteristic as impermanent, painful and not-self (xiv3 ) "consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring about, by endeavouring, the manisfestation of the path. Understanding (panna) knows the object in the way stated, and it brings about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." Very hard to really understand directly because these realities all arise together. No matter how much effort is applied if it is done with sakkya-ditthi it cannot know: In the quote from the visuddhimagga we see that citta(without panna) can know the characteristic of dhammas, it can perceive subtle feelings colours, sounds, hardness, heat - but if panna is not present one may be still developing the wrong path. Vis. Xiv6 " [the] difference is consequently subtle and hard to see. Hence the venerable nagasena said: "A difficult thing O king has been done by the Blessed one….the defining of the immaterial states of consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object, and which he declared thus: this is contact, this is feeling , this is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness "(milinda panha 87) RobertK 19242 From: Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Nina (and Herman) - In a message dated 1/29/03 1:18:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: No need of any word, it was higher, direct knowledge. The Buddha did not > need any words to attain Buddhahood. > Herman, I do not know whether all this is of any help to you, I just tried > as much as I was able to. I think Howard can add a few things about subject > and object. > =========================== I doubt there is much of value that I can add. I think our language is limited. A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects which, for lack of better terminology, we call "subjective" and "objective". With seeing for example, we unfortunately use the same word 'seeing' both for the entire event, and for its subjective aspect. The entire event is a seeing-seen unity for which we have no separate term. When we reify the subjective pole, we are "selfing" in the sense of taking that aspect of the event and making an agent out of it. When we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in the sense of making a "thing" out of the objective pole. These are my thoughts on the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19243 From: James Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:12pm Subject: Re: Chinese New Year!~ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks...hehe of course Im not related to J.Lo, I sure > wish I was! Haha...Thats nice, sounds really > interesting to me! Orange! I love oranges!!! =) Yes, > Im sure its a reminder to eat healthy..hehe > > I am a horse and it does fit me too. Because I run > really fast..I just had a basketball game this > morning and my school won the other school 30-8. Our > basketball teams is very aggresive. My Astrological > sign is Virgo, Im not quite sure if it fits me or > not. =P > > Buddhist idea is sure really complicated to understand > but I still understand it. I have heard alot of > reincarnation stories from my teacher at school > these couple of weeks because we are learning about > India. Sounds scary to me but Its very interesting. > Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the > Buddhist idea of rebirth? > > What else does a Buddhist do to celebrate Chinese New > Year?? > > Well, Happy New Year to you too! Take care, thanks. > OrAnGeS!!! I love eating oranges! I'll eat really > healthy during Chinese New Year!~ [if i can!] > > Love, JoJo Hi Star Kid JoJo! I am glad that you are going to eat healthy in the New Year...if you can. It is also wise that you added 'if you can' because it is often hard to do what we intend isn't it? So many people, on all sides of us, will try to drag us down or to make us do things that we shouldn't do. This interference can be as simple as not eating oranges or as complicated as war. This leads me to the question that you ask: Do you have any stories of reincarnation or the Buddhist idea of rebirth? JoJo, there are many stories that the Buddha told about learning from past lives and how past lives affect your current life. And they are all very helpful. But I am going to tell you about another type of rebirth. There is a rebirth that is possible in this very life. There is a way to change and grow as a person, to be reborn, and it doesn't require dying first. Lately I have been thinking a lot about war, as the world may very soon get into another war, and I have been thinking about how war affects those who are innocent; especially how war affects children. And thinking of this, I have a story to tell you about rebirth. During WWII, Nazi Germany took many innocent people, mainly Jewish people, and locked them up into prisons called concentration camps. The Nazi people treated these people very badly because they thought they weren't human. They starved them, tortured them, and killed them...by the millions. There were a lot of children in these camps. One little boy, named Pavel Friedman, 11-years-old, was in a concentration camp named Terezin in 1942 when he wrote this poem: "The Butterfly" The last, the very last, So richly, brightly, dazzlingly yellow. Perhaps if the sun's tears would sing against a white stone. . . . Such, such a yellow Is carried lightly 'way up high. It went away I'm sure because it wished to kiss the world good-bye. For seven weeks I've lived in here, Penned up inside this ghetto. But I have found what I love here. The dandelions call to me And the white chestnut branches in the court. Only I never saw another butterfly. That butterfly was the last one. Butterflies don't live in here, in the ghetto. You see JoJo, even though Pavel had been locked up in a horrible place, and was treated in a horrible way, he did not let that get him down. He became reborn, like the butterfly that flew away, and he saw the beauty around him. This is the most important type of rebirth. Each day that we wake up is a chance to be a better person than the day before. It is a chance to escape whatever ugliness is around us and to see only the beauty. Pavel died two years after he wrote this poem in another concentration camp called Aushchwitz. JoJo, I hope that each day you will fly high in the air, just like a butterfly, and be reborn. Love, James 19244 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana - books > Btw, James, do you or anyone else have any Buddhist books (preferably > Theravada ones) you can recommend for me to buy for the Star Kids? If > they're easy to order, that would be an advantage as I seldom go shopping. > Some read adult books, but still, it has to be appealingly presented for > them. That reminds me, another member asked me off-list to recommend a > book for a complete beginner as a present. Perhaps I can pass this queery > to you and others as well as I don't have much idea of what's available > apart from the Tipitaka texts themselves. > ..... > > ps. I smiled about the member who described the Star Kids as > > viruses. Ironic because he's right, they are viruses...but so are > > we all. > ..... > Hmmm. > > Metta, > > Virus Sarah Pariyatti has a children's section. http://www.pariyatti.com/catalog.phtml?sort=subselect&subject=Children&sid=4 . One book I have seen is "The life of the Buddha" it is an illustrated book that is drawn from Burmese manuscripts. It has wonderful illustrations. One good book, more for adults, I have found is Thich Nhat Hanh's book Old Path White Clouds, again it is about the life of the Buddha. It is drawn from Pali sources, though there is a bit of the Hanh overlay. It is very approachable with pretty good notes. For books about general Buddhism, covering many schools, there is Entering the Stream, it can be found on Amazon and of course What the Buddha Taught by Walpola Rahula would be a great introduction to Theravada. Ray 19245 From: david_wheeler58 Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Patthana Hi Sarah There is a place here in Boston that sells Buddhist books for children. I have not been in touch with them for a while, but I'll try and dig them up again. Metta, Dave " perhaps you could also > write down any titles of books that are suitable for children or young > teenagers for me too(preferably Theravada)." 19246 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Hi Larry & Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: LBIDD@w... [mailto:LBIDD@w...] > > In order to uproot the idea of a soul or person, > one must be mindful of > the reality of body, feeling, mind, and dhamma > when they arise in > experience and contemplate their characteristics > of impermanence, > suffering, and not self. Experiencing these > characteristics in these > objects is the actual uprooting. What would you say? > I would agree with you here as it matches exactly with opposition to that perception (that dhammas are permanent, sukha, and atta), but I am nagged by the word "contemplative practice": does this mean satipatthana or something else? Nina, thank you very much for adding more notes from Tika which clarifies but also adds more questions for me: there is no development of a meditation subject. Satipatthana is developed, but what is the development of meditation subject? Does it refer to samatha or vipassana here? kom 19247 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, Comm, Breathing, contemplation and insight Hi Nina & Larry, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > sampajanna. Sati sampajanna isn't contemplative > or philosophical but > > mindfulness with understanding, conditioned by > careful noticing and > > perhaps contemplative reflection. > Nina: good reminder Larry, like Kom I can never > have enough. Can Kom add > something about this careful noticing, as a > reminder for us? > Nina > If somebody tells me that I should be noticing the dhammas that are arising carefully, what I immediately think of is, who's doing the careful noticing? The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these ever more subtle kilesa. Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful (except in not misleading oneself). The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the best we can. kom 19248 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma,Perceiving it & Realisation Dear Htoo (& Suan), I’m really appreciating your comments and posts though I understand that for others that the Abhidhamma details are an acquired or not to be acquired taste;-) Like various delicacies at a buffet, we need to pick and choose those that don’t give us indigestion;-) I have several of your posts before me which I’ve following as you send them. Sometimes I think there is a little difference in understanding and then I find it is just a matter of terminology. I’ve found much of the detail very helpful. Let me just raise a few points in no special order to clarify: --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Dhamma is Dhamma.All the dhamma can be perceptible. > > All the dhamma means all the possible things perceptible through the > watching windows of Six,including Pancadavara and Manodavara(mind- > eye). ..... I believe that when you say “All the dhamma can be perceptible” you are referring to the role of citta which experiences or cognizes all phenomena - both realities and concepts (pannatti). I agree with your other comments about citta being the ‘chief’ in experiencing an object. We can read a lot about this in the Atthasalini (Expositor). In another post you mentioned to someone that sa~n~na doesn’t perceive and that this is the role of citta. I think this may be a matter of terminology. Usually sanna is translated as perception or memory/remembrance, so it can lead to confusion if the term is used for citta, I think. I agree these may be misleading terms to us and in an earlier post, Suan made just your point and many more interesting ones in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/17264 I always meant to reply to it. One comment Suan made in this post was that to use perception for citta is “in line with the use of the term “perception” in the textbooks on psychology”. Now I was trained in psychology but I think there is little in common between the term as used there and the role of citta, so I prefer not to try to equate them. I’m also not sure I agree any more with Suan’s use of ‘memory’ as a translation for sanna (it certainly doesn’t equate with ‘memory’ in psychological use), though I appreciate his points about the use of memory in the chapter in Pali grammar, he mentions. In Abhidhamma, realities like sanna have very specific functions, manifestations and so on. Any terms are bound to be misleading. I did agree with Suan’s ‘mind or consciousness’ for citta rather than ‘thought’ which as he explained is very misleading. Generally, I just use common translations because at least people then know what Pali term is being referred to, though I understand that for Pali scholars like Suan, this is not a satisfactory solution. When you say “All the dhamma can be perceptible”, I believe you therefore mean that all dhammas are experienced (by cittas through 6 doorways (‘watching windows’), including pannatti. At first I misunderstood your post to mean ‘can be kown’, in which case, ‘dhammas’ would not include pannatti (concepts). This is later clarified in your post to James (19093). I found your posts on rupas very helpful and I hope Rob M (an Abhidhamma teacher in Malaysia) is following your posts on vithicitta (processes). You gave some useful comments here on ekaggata cetasika (concentration): Htoo: “Concentration is just a lay term.Everyone can concentrate in some ways.The dog concentrates at its food.The monkey concentrates at bananas wherever.Erotically active people concentrate on their interests.Terrorists concentrate at their attack points.Thieves concentrate on the disappearance of the owners.Manslaughters concentrate the weakest points at men and concentrate at these points. From Abhidhamma point of view,whenever citta occurs,Ekagatta occurs.BUT Ekagatta in different people and even in a person in different cittas behaves differently in terms of power,purity and strength even though its function is to fix at a point.” ***** I think you’re helping to clear up many points raised directly or indirectly and I’ll be delighted if you sweep through the archives doing this;-) ‘Dhammas’ can have different meanings in different contexts. In the post I started off replying to, when you said “All the dhamma can be perceptible”, you were referring to realities and concepts. In your ‘Anicca and Dhamma’ post, when you say “All the Dhammas are subjected to happening (Arising and wearing away)”, you make it clear that you are not referring to pannatti (concepts) here, just as the Buddha didn’t. You clearly say “As all the things are Anicca, they cannot be managed with chosen directions; so they will go on their own ways. So all the things are Anatta (Non-self)”. I like the way you explain this, but at the end of the same post (19190), you say “Fix firmly in mind, “Anicca” “Anicca” “Anicca”. In another post you also say “One can sense the existence of one’s citta” and some other comment which prompted KKT to question whether it was possible to ‘control’ the mind after all. I think these were the kind of comments Sukin was picking up on as well. Perhaps you are just referring to the role of panna, understanding?? When you also say in the ‘anicca’ post that “if one can always contemplate all the dhammas as Anicca or Dukkha or anatta firmly in his mind, there will be no attachment to them”, I’d respectfully suggest that it’s impossible to ‘always contemplate...’ and surely the aim is to begin to understand realities, step by step, not just to think about characteristics which are not yet known?? I was also going to mention about the ‘waving’ and how surely it’s not always with ditthi. I see now that Nina has picked up this point too. I’m glad to read your extra comments on the passages she is translating. You may not have been around on DSG when she started this series at the request of a few members. It is a series of rather complex points that have been raised at the meetings of a group of teachers (at the Foundtion where A.Sujin is based) in Bangkok in Thai. Nina was asked to translate these into English. Finally, I’m looking at a letter you wrote to Herman. I really like the way you stress “ Jhana take mostly Pannatta-arammana. Pannatta does not happen, it is not a real existence, it has no lifespan. That is arammana.” I like it because it is hard for many people to appreciate that pannatti are not real and don’t have a lifespan. You continue to explain how cittas in jhana are the same without interruption which lead some mistakenly to take them for being permanent “(Nicca-someone like Bhaka-Brahma)”. Thank you again for so many helpful posts and details, Htoo. As I said, I personally found the way you set out the rupas and other dhammas helpful and I also like the way you set out the ‘requirements’ for different experiences such as seeing, hearing etc to occur. Pls let me know if I’ve misunderstood any of your comments or if you ever find any mistakes in any of my posts. I’m always happy to make corrections;-) Anumodana, Sarah ====== 19249 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:32am Subject: Photo of Rusty Dear Starkids, and All, A photo of Rusty has been uploaded to: http://tinyurl.com/4wyv metta, Christine 19250 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Dharam, May you be bathed in a moderate amount of water. I have read that Arahants don't laugh, but you can smile just a little, no? :-) Herman 19251 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:15am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, A little light heartedness here. I hope that's OK. > > It's not like 3 out of 4 arahants surveyed recommended continuing > the practice of seclusion and jhanas. It's 10 out of 10, 9000 out of > 9000. 100%. My reading of the suttas put all sample sizes at 500. This was the standard number of folks that attended gatherings, became sotapannas that day and so forth. All the best Herman PS I do agree with you, but that is neither here nor there. 19252 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Descriptive vs Prescriptive (was: Tinker, Tailor.....) Dear Stephen, You wrote a couple of posts about two weeks ago or more on the Descriptive vs Prescriptive thread (to Rob K), which I’ve been meaning to come in on. I hope you’re still around;-) I think you raised a number of good points and I appreciated your very sincere concerns about conditions and determinism. You said “If our intentions weren’t conditioned (=caused) they would be random, something that merely *happens*. But if they’re determined then they’re not free; that’s the meaning of the word.” Of course no phenomena that arise and pass away are ‘free’. Nothing can arise which is independent of many factors and conditions (not talking about nibbana). So certainly all phenomena are conditioned. If one then says, as philosophers would, that therefore all phenomena are determined or pre-determined, there may be connotations of either a) God’s or someone’s *will* or b) therefore any development or wise action is quite useless because it won’t make any difference anyway. If we just say as you do later that your definition of determinism is “no choice, everything that happens is a result of causes over which we have no control” , it’s OK if you find it helpful. There is no self to have any control, everything does happen as a result of causes, as shown in the puppet similes that Rob gave, and which some find disturbing, I know. You go on to say that “consequently there’s no religious life, no kamma. The very definition, also, of what it means to be inauthentic.” I think this is a good example of why the term ‘determinism’ does not apply to the Buddhist Teachings. I think you are perhaps equating a narrower philosphical use of the term which misses a couple of vital ingredients. Those ingredients, imho, are a)understanding of anatta and b) the development of panna and other wholesome qualities. These are different from mere thinking. It’s hard for me to explain (a cop-out I hear you saying), but all I can say is that I think that as a little direct understanding develops, what seemed like ‘issues’ fall away and become irrelevant. For example, if there is understanding of the characteristic of thinking when it arises, different from the concepts about ‘freewill’, ‘conditioned’ and ‘determinism’, the nature of thinking is understood more clearly and the pannatti (concepts) are known to be imaginary, i.e not potential objects of mindfulness. I used to have just the same kind of questions as you. However, I think that with a little more knowledge and a little more awareness, the realities are known as (conditioned) phenomena and there are fewer and fewer conditions for long stories about the implications or what this means for the future or how it is the end of freedom, for example. We can test at this moment (or panna can test) whether there is a religious life, whether there is kamma and vipaka, whether actions do bring results. Understanding more about conditions is not discouraging. Only thinking about it without any understanding is discouraging. We can also see how tenaciously there is clinging to an idea of ‘self’. How much we would like to introduce an element of ‘free choice’ and give it a non-self label;-) You also mentioned that ‘hardness’ is as much a concept as ‘people’. if we talk about hardness now, we’re talking about the concept. But regardless of whether there is any knowing of it or not, pathavi (hardness/softness) is directly experienced through the body -sense when we are sitting on a chair or touching the key-board. Panna can know it has its particular characteristic. On the other hand when we touch a person or look at someone, there is only hardness or visible object experienced. ‘Person’ can only ever be a concept. You referred to KKT’s ‘banned quote’ and said “people aren’t real so don’t worry about how you treat them”. This is like the ‘determinism’ line - it’ll all happen the same anyway, so it doesn’t matter whether any good acts are performed. These are just kinds of thinking with wrong views attached. Understanding that ‘people’ are concepts doesn’t mean less metta and so forth. Understanding phenomena are conditioned doesn’t mean less development of wholesome states. Quite the contrary. I know that these are quite difficult points and can be real stumbling blocks. I’ll gladly continue discussing these issues because I think they’re really essential. I know these answers are not adequate. In another post you gave the *insanity plea* for wrecking the garage. As your quote from Phra Payutto showed, this would be serious wrong view ”passively lying around waiting for the fruits of their kamma to come knocking and determine their future.....”. For one thing, there is, I believe, an underlying idea of self in these comments. I agree that it’s always possible to misunderstand anything said by anyone here as well, according to whatever views are held dear. You mention that “someone who felt that they were a robot or puppet would be literally insane” and that “someone who thought that they couldn’t do anything, had no control over anything, that planning and improving were myths would be completely dysfunctional....”. It does depend on our ideas of insanity. I agree with you and as others have gone to lengths to point out, there is nothing wrong with conventionally ‘taking control’ of one’s life and so on. Not receiving treatment when one is sick, not recommending psychiatric assistance (as most definitely was recommended and taken by the person I think you referred to), not being careful to avoid wrecking the garage and so on would be totally irresponsible. As a teacher/psychologist, if I recommended the kids to sit back and forget about school and homework, I’d be soon laughed out of town. Understanding more about anatta does not mean any less conventional responsibility. I’d suggest the opposite actually. It's rather like coming in a full circle and appreciating just how ordinary life is and how one can continue living in the 'rat-race' just as others do. The outer appearances need not be any different. Perhaps more 'airy-fairy' ideals are more associated with 'control' and 'special times and places' don't you think? That's how it used to be for me, anyway. However, ultimately, as the Buddha stressed, the madness that we wordlings live in is the not understanding phenomena as elements, as namas and rupas which are anatta. The madness is in taking the people, the self, the garage, the situations we find ourselves in to be Ultimate Truths when really, they are only Conventional Truths. So walking out amongst the trees, working with autistic children can be done, to all outer appearances, in just the same way, whether there are any glimmers of this kind of madness or not. Only panna will know and life will continue just the same, but with less delusion. I’ll be particularly glad to hear any further comments, Stephen. Metta, Sarah p.s I have another note of yours in front of me to Chris about what a Buddhist is. Sometime in the 70s I was asked to give a talk on this by Ven Saddhatissa and then write something for a booklet. I’ll see if I can fish it out for you sometime...I definitely didn’t conclude in the same way as the article you referred to;-)) ======================================================== 19253 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Jon, Thank you for your comments. I do understand the general thrust of the suttas to be in accordance with what you are saying. I do have to admit that it is more than a bit of a stumbling block for me. I remember Robert K posting a jataka story quite some time ago about some negative karmic result accruing to the Buddha in one of his lives, because he reacted with aversion when his kids copped a beating from their new carer as he renounced them yet again(he had a bit of a habit of doing that). Thinking about that again still raises the temperature of my blood (when it bubbles, does that mean it is boiling :-)?. If I were able to react without aversion in the scenarios you quoted or the one above, I will have proved to myself that I was already mentally dead, and whether the body would live on for another million years or two seconds would be immaterial. A long time ago I was prescribed anti-depressants. The moment they kicked in I stopped using them, as I could no longer feel. It was for me far more preferable to feel all that comes with feeling suicidal than not to be able to feel at all. Wishing you well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Thanks for posting this and the previous sutta, both of which are > relevant to the thread about war and violence. I believe they show > that one who is without defilements would not be capable of any > unwholesome action through body, speech or mind. > > Here's another snippet (mentioned in the commentary to the Honeyball > Sutta): > "Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather, it is the world > that disputes with me. A proponent of the Dhamma does not dispute > with anyone in the world." > SN XXII, 94 > > There is also the well-known Simile of the Saw Sutta, which ends with > the passage: > "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, > with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered > even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should > train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no > evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and > with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an > awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will > keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued > with good will -- abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from > hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train > yourselves. > "Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of > the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you > could not endure?" > "No, lord." > "Then attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw. > That will be for your long-term welfare & happiness." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn021.html > > Actually, the beginning part of that sutta (not included in the ATI > translation) is also interesting and relevant. It describes how a > monk, Phagguna, was "associating so much with bhikkhunis that if any > bhikkhu spoke in dispraise of those bhikkhunis in his presence, he > would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him". He was > admonished to "abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the > household life", so that if anyone should speak in dispraise of the > bhikkhunis, or should even assault them, or should assault himself, > he should train himself to be unaffected by that, to utter no evil > words, to dwell without inner hate. > MN 21 > > Jon 19254 From: ranil gunawardena Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Language of the Heart Dear James, I liked the post too. There are 12 more posts in the URL I sent in the mail. Wonderfull"y" same... ~muditha ranil >I very much like this post and agree with it. But it is very difficult >for most to understand. I wrote a post to Sarah once that stated that >she had forgotten what the heart knows. To my surprise, some other >members and she thought I had suggested that she had no heart! LOL! Oh >well. I am glad that you have posted such a thorough explanation of >what I was trying to say at that time. 19255 From: Sarah Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Photo of Rusty Hi Chris, --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Starkids, and All, > > A photo of Rusty has been uploaded to: > http://tinyurl.com/4wyv ..... ........and now Kom needn't worry about the Significant Other Rupas being lonely any more;-) If anyone else has family members or Significant Other Rupas to join, no need to be shy;-) I think we're still waiting for a few half-promised Member Rupas too, aren't we Chris??? Metta, Sarah ======= 19256 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart Hi Ranil, In short, are you saying that the mind is permanent? In short, are you saying that an arahant though dead (gone parinibbana), still had a mind, but that this mind is totally different from non-arahants? In short, are you saying that a dead arahant (gone parinibbana) is still 'existing' in the form of a mind which cannot be comprehended by conventional reality? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19257 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:57am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Herman, > May you be bathed in a moderate amount of water. I have read that > Arahants don't laugh, but you can smile just a little, no? :-) Actually I have been smiling a lot since reading this. Since I am not an Arahant, laughing is still present - in abundance too! Could not get the full context of the first statement, but it sounded refreshing. So, when I just took a shower, I moderated the volume in your honor. Your wish has been fulfilled! Would that world peace could be achieved by such simple action..... metta, dharam 19258 From: bodhi342 Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: defending oneself Hi Christine and All, Funny how this thread lived up to its title ;-) Since, you deftly redirect the dialogue towards how I would act, let me try to explain my own view, unimportant as it is. No, I have not tried any initiative with respect to world peace, because I believe that is just an illusion or dream, as I have tried to point out earlier. Dukkha is all around. I try to only extend my effort as far as my arms extend, my eyes see, and my voice reaches. This allows me to direct my attention to opportunities in daily interaction with ordinary people and animals. I have not been moved into giving to a faceless charity, nor to demonstrate, write letters etc. because that is taken care of by others, who must themselves judge its value. For sure my way is much less impressive, but I choose to practice within my means! I also try to remember that I must practice what I preach, and watch out for signals of delusion like hypocrisy, rituals etc. This of necessity leads to an economy in prescriptive rhetoric! (A very good thing!) Since 'I' am irrelevant in the scheme of things, attention should be directed towards the truth about "..........". All other endeavor is likely relatively futile, with the possible exception of kindness that does not seek reward. I have already said why I think the Dhamma shows a wise way forward. "Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living." metta, dharam 19259 From: James Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:57am Subject: Anti-depressants (was: Momentous occasion nr 2) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " < hhofman@t...> wrote: > > A long time ago I was prescribed anti-depressants. The moment they > kicked in I stopped using them, as I could no longer feel. It was for > me far more preferable to feel all that comes with feeling suicidal > than not to be able to feel at all. > > Wishing you well > > > Herman > Hi Herman and All, Yes, in my opinion it is very good that you decided to stop taking the anti-depressants. Regardless of what many people believe, anti- depressants are an extremely dangerous drug to be taking. They radically affect brain chemistry in ways that even scientists/doctors are unsure about. To use an analogy, they are like sending in a bulldozer to do the work a shovel could handle. They are overkill and affect many areas of brain functioning where there wasn't a problem. Like you experienced, you have a few troublesome emotions so the doctor prescribes a drug that eliminates all of your emotions (likely it was Paxil...one of the worst). The Buddha really discovered the way to have proper mood control: The Middle Path. Most people have mood problems because they over-indulge in certain things: food, entertainment, work, sex (including excessive masturbation), alcohol, drugs, thinking, reading, etc. They also have allergic reactions to items in the environment or certain foods. They also tend to have excessive/compulsive thinking patterns. If doctors looked at the whole patient, figured out where there was an imbalance in lifestyle, there would be a proper diagnosis of mood patterns and solutions. Anti-depressants are being prescribed like candy nowadays...there are even commercials on television promising people to 'feel good' if they take a certain anti-depressant. For anyone taking anti-depressants, I recommend they stop taking them immediately (taper down as a radical stop is likely to have bad side-effects since the brain becomes dependant on them) and start to look at your lifestyle and see where there is imbalance. And meditation is one of the best things to do to help mood. Granted, if someone is a nervous wreck or severely depressed, it is difficult to meditate. Then they should do small meditations, a few minutes at a time frequently throughout the day...and then increase to longer time periods. This is my opinion based on extensive research and personal experience of the matter. If you don't agree, okay. Metta, James 19260 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04am Subject: maharahulovada sutta, Co, no 2. Sarah, thank you, I was hoping you would add the BB notes. In the Pali Proper Names I read about Rahula. He was so eager to be taught, that in the morning he took a handful of sand and said, I also read, Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62., no 2. The relevant sutta passage: Commentary: We read that the Buddha considered that he should not neglect Rahula, that he should urge him so that his defilements would not ruin the jewel of his síla. The Buddha turned back with the "great elephant's look" (with his whole body), such as Buddhas always do. Ananda referred to "Lucky Rahula" (Raahula baddha)[1] when he said, "Atha kho Bhagavaa apaloketvaa" [N:as in the sutta], "then the Buddha, after he had looked back... " At that time the Buddha turned around in that way. We read further on in the Commentary: [1] Note: Rahula was called "lucky", baddha, because he was the Buddha's son and he attained arahatship. Nina 19261 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas and canker destruction Dear fk and all, I looked up sutta (below) and commentary. It is worth while to read the whole sutta. He sees the five khandhas as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. I cannot deal now with the whole commentary, but here are some points: sammanupassati: he sees with insight that is strong. He has chandaraga (clinging) in Dhamma, that is, in samatha and vipassana. But he can become an arahat if he gives up clinging to samatha and vipassana. This is the raft, I believe, that was referred to in another post. In the past we had many posts on the subjects, quotes of suttas, about people who developed both samatha and vipassana or developed only vipassana, the sukkhavipassaka. I am somewhat short of time to give more quotes. Please, be assured that I give the matter of jhana and vipassana serious consideration, that I carefully study texts and commentaries and really try to weigh up their meaning. I am not inclined to conclusions that are not firmly based on the Theravada tradition. Like people in the Buddha's time also at this time we are of different temperaments, different inclinations, but we respect each other, and we find that we can learn from each other. I read in another post about cheetah, the correct spelling is citta. If there are doubts about citta, see the satipatthana sutta, under cittaanupassana: seeing citta in citta. The first one here is citta with attachment, saraaga.m citta.m. We have to know this type of citta. When? When it appears, now. No matter you are sitting quietly in contemplation or you are busy in the kitchen, you have to know this type of citta. It cannot be avoided. It is panna which has to be developed so that all dhammas can be known as they are. The persons who had the inclination and skill for jhana, developed it, but, when emerging from jhana they had to know all conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. In the end we all have to know those three characteristics. Samadhi is often a point of discussion. There are many types and intensities, depending on which citta they accompany. There is mundane samadhi and supramundane samadhi. When we read about it in the texts we should carefully discriminate what type is referred to, under what heading it has been taught. There are many methods of teaching. Also, we do not think of making a shortcut by applying Abhidhamma. We know that the way is extremely long (cira kala bhavana) and that there is no shortcut to be found. The Buddha taught Abhidhamma so that we will have a more profound understanding of his teaching of non-self also in the Suttanta and in the Vinaya. We have to compare the three Parts of the teachings and then we shall see that they are in conformity with each other. We have to scrutinize the teachings and we have to verify what we learnt in our life. This is important, we should not get stuck with the theory. When you read in our posts about reminders we give as friends to each other, this is just because we realize that we need all the help we can possibly get, we need support from reading, studying, considering, applying what we read and developing awareness. We associate here in this forum with good friends in Dhamma, one of the conditions for reaching the goal. We like to share with each other what we learn from the teachings. I greatly rejoice when I receive reminders from my friends. At the same time I realize that I should not be attached to reminders, everyone has to develop the Path himself. As we read with Larry in the Way (24), mindfulness and understanding should be developed with ardour: atapi sampajano satima. My life is so short, it is urgent not to lose precious moments of developing understanding. This is how I feel about it. Nina. op 29-01-2003 18:18 schreef fcckuan op fcckuan@y...: > Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends > on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the > sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of > consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of > the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception > nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 > 19262 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:04am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 20 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 20 Thus, we should train ourselves in patience, in adhivåsanå khanti, acceptance and endurance with regard to our living conditions, our environment, patience with regard to all kinds of situations. The person who is impatient is full of malevolence and he will die with a confused mind. If he cannot be patient he may in many situations cause quarreling, injuring, fighting, harming and killing. Patience is very subtle. Everybody who studies the Dhamma has patience to listen, study and consider, with the aim to have right understanding of the Dhamma. One should not think that by just listening one has understood already what was heard. There may be confusion and wrong understanding, because the Dhamma is very subtle and deep. Patience with regard to listening to the Dhamma should increase: we should consider cause and effect in the right way, so that we see the benefit of kusala and further develop it. If this is not the case, we just listen but we do not consider with wise attention what we have heard, and then there will be conditions for wrong conduct and wrong practice. We read in the ŒKindred Sayings² (V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Streamwinning, Ch II, § 2, Brahmins) that the Buddha, while he was dwelling at Såvatthí, was reminding the monks about the right patience and the wrong patience. We read: Monks, the brahmins proclaim this practice which leads to prosperity: they instruct their disciples thus: ³Come, good fellow! Rise up betimes and go facing east. Don¹t avoid a hole, a village pool or cess-pit. You should go to meet your death wherever you may fall. Thus, good fellow, on the break up of body, after death you will be reborn in the Happy Lot, in the Heaven World.² The brahmins teach endurance and patience, but if patience is not accompanied by paññå it is not beneficial at all. This teaching of the brahmins is devoid of paññå, it is unreasonable and not beneficial. We read further on that the Buddha said: But, monks, this practice of the brahmins is the way of fools, it is the way of infatuation. It conduces not to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, it conduces not to Nibbåna. Now, monks, I too proclaim, in the Ariyan discipline, a practice which leads to prosperity, but it is one which conduces to downright revulsion, dispassion, cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbåna. The brahmins use the same word, ³leading to prosperity², but the meaning is different, and it refers to a different way of practice. We read that the Buddha said: Herein, monks, the Ariyan disciple has unwavering loyalty to the Buddha... the Dhamma...the Order. He is blessed with the virtues dear to the Ariyans, virtues unbroken, whole, unspotted, untarnished, virtues untainted, which lead to concentration of mind. This, monks, is the practice which leads to downright revulsion, dispassion, cessation, to calm, to full comprehension, to the wisdom, to Nibbåna. This is a short text, but it deals with the dhammas which are naturally appearing just as they are, at this moment. This is the way leading to dispassion, calm, full comprehension, enlightenment, nibbåna. 19263 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:09am Subject: (2)2.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, In the previous post,4 sets of Cetasikas had been described.In this post,let's go into some detail about the permanent ministers (Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas).There are 7 of them. 1.Phassa Cetasika It introduce Arammana and Citta.It meet them.When an iron rod is struck against another iron rod,there will appear sparks.The first rod is Arammana,the second is Citta and the act of touching is Phassa. 2.Vedana Cetasika It feels the arammana and makes citta feels as well.Each citta arised has its own Vedana Cetasika.Cittas are named according to their accompanying Vedana cetasika in terms of Vedanasanghaha,like Somanassa cittas,Domanassa cittas,Dukkha citta,Sukkha citta and Upekkha cittas. 3.Cetana Cetasika It drives citta.It urges to do,push forward citta.It reminds citta.Cetana also drives other cetasikas to do their business.It is Cetana who creates Kamma when they accompanied Javanacittas. 4.Sanna Cetasika It memorises and it recalls.It reports the memories to citta.This can be learn in case of people with Jatissara-nana(reincarnated people who know the previous lives events-actually the brain in this life and ones in previous lives are never related-Science view).In this matters Sanna works and memories are carried over from citta to citta but subconsciously. 5.Ekagatta Cetasika It fixes citta to an arammana.It controls citta not to spread to other arammanas and it calms down citta and accompanting Cetasikas.See in the post named ''Ekagatta,Samadhi,Jhana & Concentration''. 6.Jivitindriya Cetasika It supports citta and other accompanying cetasikas as caterer or supplier and it functions as life and makes all namadhammas alive. 7.Manasikara Cetasika It directs citta to arammana.It steers citta and its allied cetasikas not to deviate to any other directions.It functions as supplying a straight way.The way we think the arammana is directed by Manasikara.''Yonisomanasikara'' good insight makes good things. All these 7 Cetasikas always accompany any citta.They all design the citta of theirs.They all help the citta of theirs. May you all have a clearer view on this post. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19264 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:35pm Subject: F/W message from Mike Nease Mike's having trouble getting his new email add accepted by yahoo groups, so I'm f/w his mail. Sarah. ============================= Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM Hi Nina, Thanks for you comments, "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people." If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as akusala kamma and as a condition for future akusala kamma). In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... mike 19265 From: Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Way 44, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p. 56 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html [Tika] Going is here shown to be one of the particular modes of bare phenomenal movement due to appropriate cause-and-condition, without attributing it to a fallacious reason such as the one formulated thus: The soul comes into contact with the mind, the mind with the sense-organs and the sense-organs with the object (thus there is perception). [idañhi gamanam nama atta manasa samyujjati mano indriyehi indriyani atthehiti evamadi miccha karana vinimutta anurupa paccaya hetuko dhammanam pavatti akara viseso[20]]. [T] "No living being or person", because of the proving of the going of only a bare phenomenon and because of the absence of anyone besides that phenomenon. Now to show proof of the going of a bare phenomenon the words beginning with "on account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity" were spoken by the commentator [dhammamattasseva gamanasiddhito tabbinimuttasa ca kassaci abhavato idani dhammamattasseva gamana siddhim dassetum citta kriya vayo dhatu vippharenati adi vuttam]. [T] There mental activity and the diffusion and agitation in the process of oscillation which is mental activity = diffusion of the process of mental activity [tattha citta kriya ca vippharo vipphandanañcati citta kriya vayo dhatu vippharo]. The commentator, by mentioning mental activity, eschews the diffusion of the process of oscillation connected with inanimate things, and by the mention of the diffusion of the process of oscillation eschews the class of mental activity producing volitional verbal-expression. By the terms mental activity and the process of oscillation, the commentator makes clear bodily expression [tena ettha ca citta kriyaggahanena anindriyabaddha vayodhatu vippharam nivatteti: vayodhatu vippharaggahanena cetana vaciviññatti bhedam citta kriyam nivatteti. Ubhayena pana kaya viññattim vibhaveti]. [T] "Produces the process of oscillation." Brings about the group of materiality with the quality of oscillation in excess. [T] This group of materiality is that of the pure octad consisting of the Four Great Primaries [mahabhuta] symbolized by earth, water, fire and air, and the four derived from these: color, smell, taste and nutritive essence [pathavi apo tejo vayo vanna gandha rasa oja]. [T] "Excess" is to be taken here by way of capability (adequacy or competency) and not by way of measure (size or amount). [T] "The process of oscillation produces expression." This was said concerning the process of oscillation arisen from the thought of going. This process is a condition to the supporting with energy, the bearing up, and the movement of the conascent body of materiality. [T] "Expression" is that change which takes place together with the intention. [T] "Oscillation" is mentioned by way of a predominant condition [adhika bhava] and not by way of production through oscillation alone. Otherwise the state of derived materiality pertaining to expression would not be a fact [aññatha viññattiya upadaya rupa bhavo durupapado siya]. 19266 From: James Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:32pm Subject: Buddha Art Hi All, I like to do photographic, computer art in my spare time. I have uploaded two Buddha art pieces I have done in the photos section "4Others". They are titled "Morning Buddha" and "Awaiting Release". I hope you enjoy them. (Sarah, don't worry, they have been optimized for the Internet and take very little server space ;-). Metta, James 19267 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (was, F/W message from Mike Nease) Mike Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. Kamma is a vast and complex subject, which I do not pretend to even partly grasp (I mean of course at an intellectual level). However, I believe we need to distinguish between the moments of kusala/akusala volition that constitute 'completed action' or 'courses of action' (kamma patha) and those moments of kusala/akusala volition that are not of that strength or nature but simply accumulate as a tendency. While it's true that the latter may play a part in our committing more of the former at some time in the future, even this is not necessarily so with all instances of akusala volition. For example, the attachment that motivates our normal living activities (eating, brushing teeth, going to work etc) is not regarded as leading us in the direction of committing more akusala kamma patha. If I remember correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree of danger that other akusala volition does. In addition to that, even among the akusala volition that constitutes akusala kamma patha, some plays only a supporting role, and so is dependent for its efficacy on other (more weighty) kamma coming to fruition. I have pasted below some extracts from Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary that might be of interest. Jon Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary A. Kamma-patha <<< kamma-patha: 'course of action', is a name for the group of 10 kinds of either unwholesome or wholesome actions, viz. I. The tenfold unwholesome courses of action (akusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; - 3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views. II. The tenfold wholesome course of action (kusala-kamma-patha): - 3 bodily actions: avoidance of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse; - 4 verbal actions: avoidance of lying, slandering, rude speech, foolish babble; i.e. true, conciliatory, mild, and wise speech; - 3 mental actions: unselfishness, good-will, right views. Unwholesome mental courses of action comprise only extreme forms of defiled thought: the greedy wish to appropriate others' property, the hateful thought of harming others, and pernicious views. Milder forms of mental defilement are also unwholesome, but do not constitute 'courses of action'. >>> B. Kamma <<< kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the wholesome and unwholesome volitions (kusala- and akusala-cetaná) and their concomitant mental factors, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These karmical volitions (kamma cetaná) become manifest as wholesome or unwholesome actions by body (káya-kamma), speech (vací-kamma) and mind (mano-kamma). .. .. .. With regard to their functions one distinguishes: 1. regenerative (or productive) karma (janaka-kamma), 2. supportive (or consolidating) karma (upatthambhaka-kamma), 3. counteractive (suppressive or frustrating) karma (upapílaka-kamma), 4. destructive (or supplanting) karma (upaghátaka- or upacchedaka-kamma). (1) produces the 5 groups of existence (corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness) at rebirth as well as during life-continuity. (2) does not produce karma-results but is only able to maintain the already produced karma-results. (3) counteracts or suppresses the karma-results. (4) destroys the influence of a weaker karma and effects only its own result. >>> > > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:26 AM > Hi Nina, Thanks for you comments, "If we like our food or laugh, there is no akusala kamma. We just discussed this again with A. Sujin. If we would think that laughing brings an unpleasant result, how unnatural our life would be. It could cause lots of scruples to people." If thought, speech or action with regard to a pleasant impingement (of thought of flavor e.g.) is conditioned by attachment to the pleasant feeling--that is, tending to continue or repeat the impingement--this is perfectly natural but still akusala, I think, however subtle. (I mean that that volition does accumulate as akusala kamma and as a condition for future akusala kamma). In fact I think most akusala is 'perfectly natural' and learning to see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. Naturally, people like to think that their everday pleasures and attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma. Am I missing or miscontruing something? Thanks in advance... mike Weight Age Gender Female Male 19268 From: James Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Love Hi All, In the USA, February 14th is Valentines Day, a day to remember love… and it is usually symbolized with a heart. I am going to spend some time this month researching and learning more about love and the heart. In Buddhism, love is translated into metta, which actually means `loving kindness'. I think that, as Buddhists, we often distance ourselves from love. Love is viewed as something that is overly emotional, irrational, and impassioned; but I don't think that is really love. The Buddha talked many times about metta and how its cultivation is beneficial…even to the point of arahantship. But what is it? How do we see it? How do we know it? I have read the suttas about metta and I still don't know if I have a grasp on what the Buddha was trying to teach…not really. A few years ago, I asked my meditation teacher, Ajahn Somporn, how I was to practice Metta Meditation because I didn't really feel anything when I did it. I couldn't seem to be able to project anything like metta out to anyone. I felt like a lightbulb trying to light up that didn't have the electricity. He told me something very profound, but also something very disturbing that I didn't want to hear, "You have to love yourself first." I think as adults we become very jaded about love and forget what it means; or maybe I just speak for myself. So I want to share some observations that some children (4 to 8-years-old) had when they were asked what love is: ·"Love is that first feeling you feel before all the bad stuff gets in the way." ·"When my grandmother got arthritis, she couldn't bend over and paint her toenails anymore. So my grandfather does it for her all the time, even when his hands got arthritis too. That's love." ·"Love is when you go out to eat and give somebody most of your french fries without making them give you any of theirs." ·"Love is when someone hurts you. And you get so mad but you don't yell at them because you know it would hurt their feelings." ·"Love is what makes you smile when you're tired." ·"My mommy loves me more than anybody. You don't see anyone else kissing me to sleep at night." ·"Love is when mommy gives daddy the best piece of chicken." ·"Love is when mommy sees daddy on the toilet and she doesn't think it's gross." ·"You really shouldn't say 'I love you' unless you mean it. But if you mean it, you should say it a lot. People forget." I think that maybe this is a good start for me. If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. I guess I am the one with no heart! LOL! Metta, James 19269 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:55pm Subject: A. P. Buddhadatta book query Dear Group, Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of A.P. Buddhadatta. "The New Pali Course, Part 1 (6th Edition). 'Colombo: The Colombo Apothecaries', 1962? Is it still in print? metta, Christine 19270 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:40pm Subject: Re: Love Hi James, I wonder if love is better considered as a 'well-wishing intention towards someone', as a 'mental action', not as an 'arising emotional state'. The english language is not rich in alternative words and the term "love" has been used as a 'catch all' for a wide range of feelings from 'like' to 'lust'; e.g. "I love vanilla ice-cream', 'I love my brother'; 'I love swimming'; 'I love my country'; ''I love cool weather'; I love the Dhamma'; "I love my partner'; It has been directed at inanimate objects, physical feelings, actions, philosophical ideas, the divine, humans and non-humans. The one word is used to represent greed, friendship, sexual desire, brotherly feelings, sacred feelings, self-sacrifice, patriotism etc. Perhaps most of the ways we think of love are only 'attachment' (in the Dhamma sense)? How very interesting that Ajahn Sompom told you, "You have to love yourself first" - did he say much more about that aspect? Until coming to this dsg group, I always believed that in practising metta- bhavana one should begin by generating metta towards oneself. That what one wants to arouse is not the ordinary selfish concern with one's own profit and advantage, but a heartfelt wish for one's own genuine well-being and happiness. I thought that once one succeeded in "softening the heart" towards oneself, and could really feel a deep concern for one's own well-being, one then selected in turn representatives from the other groups -- respected person, close friend, neutral person, and foe -- and then generated the same feeling of metta towards them, until it became equalized among all five. [There have been several lively discussions about whether metta should be 'self' or only 'other' directed on dsg.] metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > Hi All, > > In the USA, February 14th is Valentines Day, a day to remember love… > and it is usually symbolized with a heart. I am going to spend some > time this month researching and learning more about love and the > heart. In Buddhism, love is translated into metta, which actually > means `loving kindness'. I think that, as Buddhists, we often > distance ourselves from love. Love is viewed as something that is > overly emotional, irrational, and impassioned; but I don't think that > is really love. The Buddha talked many times about metta and how its > cultivation is beneficial…even to the point of arahantship. But what > is it? How do we see it? How do we know it? I have read the suttas > about metta and I still don't know if I have a grasp on what the > Buddha was trying to teach…not really. 19271 From: nidive Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:51pm Subject: Re: Love Hi James, > If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. This is my idea: to love is to comprehend love as love. How is love comprehended as love? There is the case where one does not conceive things about love, does not conceive things in love, does not conceive things coming out of love, does not conceive love as 'mine', does not delight in love. Knowing that delight is the root of suffering and stress, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, one attains the unexcelled right self-awakening. This is the Highest "Love" that one may shower upon oneself. This is the Highest "Love" that leads to Unbinding. One who does not delight in metta while radiating metta is the one who radiates the purest metta. Such was the Buddha. Reference Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19272 From: Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:51am Subject: The Many Names of Buddha Dear Friends in This Community List, The "Many Names for the Buddha" was shared by a friend who leads another community like this and close to our own. Some of you may recognize this was posted by a wonderful Dhamma practitioner and what I would call a good friend but a true kalyána-mitta --- Noble Friend. Dr. Desmond Chiong, I have known as a loving, kind, compassionate teacher and a very much needed healing presence on this Internet. It is with profound reverence and deep appreciation, and gratitude for the Path that brings me the chance to share a recent post of his --- one that is beneficial for all of Dhamma Practitioners. Dhamma requires practice. The nectar of Practice of Buddhadharma is like no other. It is a nectar that is also a medicine. The extraction of that Nectar has been symbolized by the bee that drinks the flowers' nectar but does not hurt the flowers. If we study the Dhamma like the bees' and the flowers' cooperative relationship, then practice is healing and not harmful, and we learn that the Dhamma is studied or else how could one establish the right practice? The Fourth Noble Truth is first expanded by Right View or Right Understanding like what like the bees are to the flowers and flowers are to the bees. Right Thinking is like the bees who share their truth upon returning to the hive. There are many hives but these bees know where to return with their share of nectar, and depart again, returning to the flowers for their offering of nectar.... And so on... Dhamma requires practice but it begins with a serious commitment to study and learn. "The Many Names of the Buddha" is something that can be used for reflection akin to Samatha meditation. The references given beside them can provide a nice series of daily type reading for reflection, study, practice, and application. That we have this medicine or nectar available to us right here and now, that we can share it, continue the practice of it, educate with it, heal the Earth and ourselves with it, but most importantly apply it honestly and objectively to ourselves discovering that the Dhamma Truth applies to all human beings without regard to class, place, space, time, race, religion, etc.; --- when we can see all by ourselves the facts; when we apply ourselves to the Dhamma with bare attention, as well as apply the Dhamma to ourselves, we know and witness that a Refuge in Truth is the only real protection in these troubled times. May this everyone here well, happy, safe and secure, prospering, and ever mindful of the Gift That Excels All Others, And with gratitude to Des for reminding us of the Taste of the Medicine That Excels All Other Tastes, in the Dhamma, Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo oooO0Oooo The many names for the Buddha The following are a few of the many epithets that appear in the suttas in reference to the Buddha. The indicated sutta passages contain examples. All-seeing: Iti 112 Awakened one(buddho): AN XI.12 Best of those who can be tamed: Iti 112 Blessed one(bhagava): AN XI.12 Bull among men: Sn III.11 Bull among seers: Sn III.11 Bull of the Sakyan clan: Sn III.11 Caravan leader: Iti 84 Conqueror of beasts: Sn III.11 Consummate in knowledge & conduct (vijja-carana-sampanno): AN XI.12 Dispeller of darkness: Iti 38 Endowed with all the foremost marks: Snp III.1 Expert with regard to the world (lokavidu): AN XI.12 First in the world: Iti 84 Foremost jewel: Sn III.11 Foremost of all people: Sn III.11 Foremost of charioteers: Thag VI.9 Foremost of those who can cross: Iti 112 Foremost sage: Sn III.11 Giver of the deathless: MN 18 Great One (naga): Ud V.6 Great seer: Sn IV.14 Kinsman of the sun: Sn IV.14 Peerless bull: SN I.38 Rightly self-awakened (samma-sambuddho): AN XI.12 Shower of the way: MN 107 Supreme among those who can be released: Iti 112 Tathagata (the one "Thus-gone" or "Thus-come"): Iti 112 Teacher of divine & human beings (sattha deva-manussanam): Iti 112 Thoroughly mature: Iti 112 Ultimate leader: Thag VI.9 Unconquered conqueror: Iti 112 Unexcelled trainer for those people fit to be tamed (anuttaro purisa- damma-sarathi): AN XI.12 Unsurpassed doctor and surgeon: Iti 100 Well-gone one (sugato): AN XI.12 Wielder of power: Iti 112 Worthy one (arahant): AN XI.12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- See also: Refuge: An Introduction to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised: Fri 17 May 2002 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/buddha.html metta, and karuna, des 19273 From: Antony Woods Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: Love Dear Christine, James and all, I was very interested in the following quote: "To practise the meditation on loving-kindness, one should begin with oneself. One should cultivate the wish to be happy." http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bs-s-splash.htm Simply cultivating the wish to be happy seems a lot simpler than wishing "May I be happy" with its reference to self. May we be happy, safe, healthy and peaceful / Antony. 19274 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:05am Subject: Buddhist books for Children Dear Ray, James & David, Thankyou for your feedback.I’ve had a look at the Pariyatti site and will keep an eye open for the other titles suggested. Like James always stresses, imaginatively produced or illustrated helps for children and I know his book will be very imaginative;-) I already have ‘What the Buddha Taught’ of course and have now put it in the kids’ library. In addition, I visited a nearby ‘boutique bookshop’ to see if they had anything possible yesterday. Actually, they had quite a lot of Buddhist books and I started checking them with kids’ eyes. Some I also rejected because there was too much inside which I personally disagreed with (i.e don’t consider to conform with the texts or were purely Mahayana and thereby not suitable for quoting on DSG;-). I ended up buying: -A questionable translation of Dhammapada by Thomas Byrom which is however more appealing to look at than the copies I have with Pali. -‘The Bristish Museum BUDDHA’ by Delia Pemberton - a nicely produced little book (lots of photos) with good factual info as far as I can see -‘The Vision of The Buddha’ by Tom Lowenstein - imaginative, factual, Buddhism in different parts of the world -Karen Armstrong’s ‘Buddha’ which looks like quite a good and easy to read account of the Buddha’s life. What I like is that she gives the sources for all her comments at the back and the parts I read seemed very accurate. This might be a good book to give beginner adults too as the off-list friend asked about. Usually with children, I just like to encourage them to read and read and to make their own choices according to tastes in this regard. Last year I had a pair of identical twins who would always choose completely different kinds of books. I think one has to encourage according to the interest, even if it's Pokemon in the beginning as it was for one of these boys;-) I’ll just put these titles amongst others in the library and see if any ‘appeal’. One child, Kiana (aged 11 or 12), with very average English and from a very ordinary background happened to have read almost almost all the adult books from ‘Lord of the Rings’ to ‘Life and Death in Shanghai’ to Charles Dickens etc and was glad to pick up ‘20 Jatakas’ by way of light relief and then refer several other kids to it who wouldn’t have been interested if it had been my suggestion. For Chinese New Year, Kiana has now taken out the larger Thai book on Jatakas - an adult retelling of the last 12 tales with the Thai mural paintings. It’ll be interesting to hear what she makes of the Vessantara story told there in full detail. Thanks again Ray and James for your suggestions which I’ll look out for. Some of the others on Pariyatti would be good for the younger children especially. Meanwhile we’re enjoying the Chinese New Year holiday here, James - oranges everywhere along with red lanterns and red packets - a chance to give.....Unusually fine weather for a little hiking for us. Kung Hei Fat Choi to all Chinese members! Sarah ====== 19275 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:42am Subject: Re: The Many Names of Buddha Dear Dhamma Friends, Many Names of The Buddha should be borne in our mind.We all should realise what each name refers to.Thinking of The Buddha and His gunnas is Buddhanussati Kammathana.This Kammathana is quite useful for the beginners because it raises the necessary basis and empowers their Saddha(belief). There are four Kammathanas that guard us. 1.Buddhanussati Kammathana(for raising Saddha). 2.Marananussati Kammathana(for suppressing Mana). 3.Kayagatanussati Kammathana(for suppressing Raga). 4.Mettanussati Kammathana that is 4 Brahamavihara or Brahmacariya(for suppressing Dosa) Each has its own goodness.But for the beginners,what makes most is Buddhanussati Kammathana. We need to put our mind on thinking of Buddhagunnas.So there will not be no more other bad thoughts. We need to cite Gunna at any time and at all possible time.With practice it will be apparent that The Buddha lives with us all the time.In the presence of The Buddha we will not do bad things and so on. Even ''Arahan'' has many meanings.And there are many other gunnas and they can be searched in the literature. May you all live with The Buddha by practising Buddhanussati Kammathana. With Great Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Dear Friends in This Community List, > > The "Many Names for the Buddha" was shared by a friend who leads another > community like this and close to our own. a true kalyána-mitta --- Noble Friend. > Dr. Desmond Chiong, a loving, kind, compassionate teacher > and a very much needed healing presence on this Internet. > It is with profound reverence and deep appreciation, and gratitude for the > Path that brings me the chance to share a recent post of his --- one that is > beneficial for all of Dhamma Practitioners. > metta, > and karuna, > des 19276 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:20am Subject: Re: Love --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > > How very interesting that Ajahn Sompom told you, "You have to love > yourself first" - did he say much more about that aspect? Hi Christine, Antony, NEO, and ALL, Hmmm…Christine, I don't think I get what you are saying about love. I think that maybe you have confused me even more! ;-) You ask about Ajahn Somporn and what else he said about the matter. When I asked him to explain what he meant, since I thought that love was putting other people before oneself, he….oh, you're gonna love this one!… asked me a question: Who is the most important person to you? I told him that I didn't know; a lot of people are important to me. He then said, "If everyone who was important to you was in a boat in the ocean than sank, and you were all floating in the ocean, who would you think about saving first? You would want to save yourself first. There is no one you would want to save more than to save yourself." I naturally had to agree with that because it is true. I know that my meditation teacher was right; I just didn't/don't understand what he was meaning. It is some sort of insight that I don't get. There must be some way to love oneself and still remain selfless. Hmmmm…I am still learning and wanting to learn. Thanks Antony for the link, I will read it completely. NEO, that is some interesting word substitution in a sutta source, but I am not sure that changing the words of the Buddha is what I am looking for. What does what you wrote mean to you? Metta, James 19277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank I have enjoyed reading your posts lately. On the subject of right concentration, I understand your view to be that the development of samatha/the jhanas is a necessary prerequisite for the development of insight and the attainment of enlightenment (my apologies if I have got this wrong). So that I can understand better where you are coming from, may I ask how you reconcile that view with the descriptions in the suttas of persons who manage to attain enlightenment without any apparent history of samatha/jhana development (for example, the householder Upali in the Upali Sutta MN 56, p. 477 of MDB)? On the particular sutta extract you have quoted, I think it is best understood by considering the part that follows it: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskilful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' The crucial passage here is the description of the development of insight: "He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, ... not-self." This is a description that we are familiar with from other contexts where there is no samatha/jhana connection. Whatever the context, the teachings always come back to the need for insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma, described here in terms of the 5 khandhas. This is as applicable to the jhana attainer as it is to any other person. That's my reading, anyway! Jon --- "fcckuan " wrote: > Buddha: "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana...the second jhana...the third...the fourth...the sphere of the infinitude of space...the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception." -- AN IX.36 19278 From: ajahn_paul Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re: Photo of Rusty Is Rusty ur dog??? one of my dogs momo, a chow, just passed away on 27/1/2003 at 9pm. :(::::::: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Starkids, and All, > > A photo of Rusty has been uploaded to: > http://tinyurl.com/4wyv > > metta, > Christine 19279 From: fcckuan Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Herman, I actually posted a lengthy and juicy response, but it got zapped due to some inferior software deficiencies working to my disadvantage. Anicca. Through nonclinging, I save myself any vexation and grief from remembering/retyping/recomposing (or recom- posting?) my original 1 hour response. Dukkha, Anatta, -fk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Frank, > > A little light heartedness here. I hope that's OK. > 19280 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Excellent. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:51 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > Hi James, > > > If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. > > This is my idea: to love is to comprehend love as love. > > How is love comprehended as love? There is the case where one does > not conceive things about love, does not conceive things in love, > does not conceive things coming out of love, does not conceive love > as 'mine', does not delight in love. Knowing that delight is the > root of suffering and stress, with the total ending, fading away, > cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, one attains the > unexcelled right self-awakening. > > This is the Highest "Love" that one may shower upon oneself. This is > the Highest "Love" that leads to Unbinding. > > One who does not delight in metta while radiating metta is the one > who radiates the purest metta. Such was the Buddha. > > Reference Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > 19281 From: fcckuan Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > On the subject of right concentration, I understand your view to be > that the development of samatha/the jhanas is a necessary > prerequisite for the development of insight and the attainment of > enlightenment (my apologies if I have got this wrong). What I believe is that some minimal jhanic proficiency is necessary. There are differing views of what that minimal level is, so I personally find it prudent to overshoot that minimum and make sure one develops jhana to a degree of proficiency with some margin of safety to prevent being left out of the big party. Attainmnent of jhanic proficiency does not guarantee development of insight, and liberating insights don't occur while one is absorbed in jhana, but jhanic level of concentration is a necessary power tool to enable one to have insight into destruction of the taints. > So that I can understand better where you are coming from, may I ask > how you reconcile that view with the descriptions in the suttas of > persons who manage to attain enlightenment without any apparent > history of samatha/jhana development (for example, the householder > Upali in the Upali Sutta MN 56, p. 477 of MDB)? > One can have jhanic level of concentration without having formally practiced jhanas (in this lifetime). I don't believe people randomly have talent, worldly or unworldly. I believe in dependently arisen and conditioned talent. > The crucial passage here is the description of the development of > insight: > "He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, > feeling, perceptions, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, > stressful, ... not-self." My conclusion from pali cannon is that lesser quality concentration produces insights that affect our views and understanding at an intellectual level, which can greatly reduce dukkha, but jhanic level of concentration is necessary for liberating insight for destruction of the taints. There is another sutta passage that says right mindfulness can not be brought to full power without jhanic level of right concentration. Thus, a path built on mindfulness and abhidhamma study can take you perhaps to stream entry, but not all the way to the other shore until right concentration (and right view of course) is fully developed. -fk 19282 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: Love Hi James, > NEO, that is some interesting word substitution in a sutta source, but I am > not sure that changing the words of the Buddha is what I am looking for. > What does what you wrote mean to you? The Notes to that Sutta says: 4. "The seen, the heard, the sensed, & the cognized" is a set of terms to cover all things experienced through the six senses. 5. Singleness = experience in states of intense concentration (jhana). Multiplicity = experience via the six senses. I think love is something that is experienced through the intellect sense (mind sense). It is also something that can be practised as a form of concentration. Love is something that is not-self as well. It is to be comprehended as such. Comprehension of love as love will lead to dispassion and Unbinding. Therefore, the Highest Love that anyone can shower on himself/herself is to comprehend love as love and giving up the delight in love. Anyone who has the Highest Love for himself/herself will practice such a comprehension leading to dispassion. It may sound nonsensical, but I think that a person who radiates metta without attachment to that metta is purer than the person who radiates metta with attachment to it (ie. with the thought "This metta is mine." or "I am the one who radiates the metta.", or with subtle conceit and self-delusion). Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19283 From: m. nease Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Dear Neo, p.s. Also please note the suggestive similarity between 'lobha' and the Indo-European root 'leubh' at http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE281.html Hi Christine--I think this topic is of great importance, because of the utterly pervasive influence of lobha on everyday life and the liklihood of mistaking it for mettaa, mudita etc. I think this is a real touchstone of Buddhadhamma--does it conduce to detachment? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:51 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > Hi James, > > > If anyone else has any ideas, feel free to share them with me. > > This is my idea: to love is to comprehend love as love. > > How is love comprehended as love? There is the case where one does > not conceive things about love, does not conceive things in love, > does not conceive things coming out of love, does not conceive love > as 'mine', does not delight in love. Knowing that delight is the > root of suffering and stress, with the total ending, fading away, > cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, one attains the > unexcelled right self-awakening. > > This is the Highest "Love" that one may shower upon oneself. This is > the Highest "Love" that leads to Unbinding. > > One who does not delight in metta while radiating metta is the one > who radiates the purest metta. Such was the Buddha. > > Reference Sutta: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn001.html > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19284 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Love --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Excellent. > > mike Mike, No offense, but I don't understand the point of this post. Are you casting a vote or something...like on American Idol? ;-) Does NEO now get to go to Hollywood because you gave him the thumbs up? ;-). There are many posts that I agree with or disagree with or couldn't care less about, but unless I have something to add I don't post just my opinion. Is doing so in keeping with the dhamma? (ps. I thought his post was excellent also. It should be, it was plagarized from Lord Buddha.) Metta, James 19285 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "fcckuan " < fcckuan@y...> wrote: Thus, a path built on mindfulness and > abhidhamma study can take you perhaps to stream entry, but not all > the way to the other shore until right concentration (and right view > of course) is fully developed. > > -fk Hi Frank (and Jon): I completely agree with you. Granted, that householder attained enlightenment without meditation practice but he wasn't just some Joe Blow off the street. He had the right amount of accumulations from previous lifetimes of learning and concentration practice. It appears to me as if Jon is suggesting that formal, Yogic meditation practice isn't necessary to follow what the Buddha taught. Nothing could be further from the truth! Simply reading the suttas, studying dhamma, and memorizing Abhidhamma terminology, without formal meditation practice, is like reading a menu but never ordering the food and eating it. That may titillate the mind, but the belly will remain empty. Metta, James 19286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers. A shortlived cabinet. Dear Htoo, I like this simile, it is refreshing. Especially the different kinds of ministers: permanent and flexible, destructive and constructive. Good for children as well. Did you find this in a textbook, or did you think of it yourself? Poor cabinet, all ministers, even the permanent ones, are very temporary, changing each moment. When we were in Thailand A. Sujin explained that the sense-cognitions (seeing etc) which are accompanied only by seven cetasikas (the permanent ministers) are totally different from all the other cittas which have other kinds of ministers. We should not get stuck on a theoretical level, but, she said we should really consider this in our life. After seeing there are cittas with the flexible minister of vitakka, applied thought, which strikes again and again on the object. Quite different from just seeing which does not need vitakka in order to see. This helps us to better understand the difference between seeing and thinking, which arises so shortly after seeing. Nina op 29-01-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually > mind has as army of > soldiers 19287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 42, Comm, Deportment Dear Kom, the Pali has kammatthana, usually translated as meditation subject. It is used for samatha and vipassana. Here, it could mean samatha, since satipatthana is also mentioned. As I quoted : eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. op 30-01-2003 07:17 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > Nina, thank you very much for adding more notes from Tika > which clarifies but also adds more questions for me: there > is no development of a meditation subject. Satipatthana is > developed, but what is the development of meditation > subject? Does it refer to samatha or vipassana here? 19288 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing Dear Kom, Thank you for your excellent explanation and reminder. See below, adding a little. op 30-01-2003 08:30 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: > > If somebody tells me that I should be noticing the dhammas > that are arising carefully, what I immediately think of is, > who's doing the careful noticing? N; that is the qu we should always ask ourselves; before we realize it, it is wrong again. But so good to know where we are wrong. On the other hand, what Larry says can also be taken in the right way. It is sati sampajanna, not self, who carefully notices. Careful, because it needs a refined awareness and understanding to discern the different characteristics that appear. K: The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, > and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it > is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, > if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is > satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't > understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is > about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these > ever more subtle kilesa. N: We heard A. Sujin speak many times about detachment, that the Path is all the way about detachment. We can repeat this, but, so difficult to really know what true detachment is. If we know more our attachment, we may understand what detachment is, what are your views about this? Theoretical understanding about detachment is not enough. K: Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it > does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful > (except in not misleading oneself). N: Your last sentence, not misleading oneself, made me laugh. It is so true. Good to remember that panna works its own way, it does its own thing, as you say. Usually people do not believe this, they wonder how can it be. They underestimate the power of panna. There is no need to concentrate first, so that panna can know realities, but some people worry that panna is not fast enough to know the present reality. They believe that they should sit and watch what is going on. A. Sujin said: panna can shoot from very far and very fast. It is compared to shooting at a target. We cannot grasp this yet. The accumulation of panna is much slower than we would like, but here there is attachment again. > K: The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing > away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly > noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule > theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already > being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions > of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true > dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the > best we can. N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. However, I find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are afraid that we are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? That would be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. Thank you very much, I do appreciate what you say. Nina. 19289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:19am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 Chapter 3 The Rúpa which is Bodily Intimation, Kåya Viññatti Rúpa Introduction Bodily intimation, kåya viññatti rúpa, is a kind of rúpa, that originates from citta. It does not originate from the other three factors that can produce rúpa: kamma, temperature and nutrition. Bodily intimation originates from citta that intends to convey a meaning. For example, when we gesticulate, citta produces bodily intimation so that our intention is expressed. Speech intimation, vací viññatti rúpa, is another kind of rúpa that originates from citta that intends to convey a meaning. Both bodily intimation and speech intimation arise in a group of rúpas, produced by citta. When we learn more details about bodily intimation and speech intimation, we can understand the intricacy of the conditions for the different dhammas to arise. Whenever we gesticulate or speak, we can be reminded that it is not self, not a person who does so [1]. ******* Issues of Analysis: 1. When there is the natural movement of the body without the intention of conveying a meaning does the rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti rúpa, arise ? 2. When one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma through the body should there always be the doorway of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti rúpa? The sources which support the conclusion of the analysis: 1. Atthasåliní, the Commentary to the Dhammasangani, Buddhist Psychological Ethics: Expositor I, Book I, Part III, Discourse on Doors, and Expositor II, Book II, Ch 3: Derived Rúpas, bodily intimation. 2. The ³Dispeller of Delusion², the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 6: Analysis of Dependent Origination, Suttanta Division (144, Ignorance has twentyfive characteristics; by the doors of kamma). 3. Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 61, 62, Description of the Aggregates (the two rúpas of intimation, viññatti). 4. The Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the Paramattha Mañjuså, the Mahå-tíka, the explanation ³by rúpakkhandha². 5. Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Manual of Abhidhamma, and the Tíka, the Abhidhammattha Vibhåviní. Conclusion regarding the analysis of the first issue: When there is the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a meaning, there is no rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti. The sources that explain the reasons for this conclusion: I: The Atthasåliní, Expositor I, Book I, Part III, Discourse on Doors, states: ³Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called Œintimation¹.² In the Paramattha Mañjuså, the Mahå-Tíka of the Visuddhimagga, in the explanation, by rúpakkhandha, we read: ³...it is called intimation, viññatti, because it makes known. What does it make known? An intention. Through means of what? Through the body. In what way? By the movement of the body in that way.² Thus it is clear that the rúpa of bodily intimation is a rúpa originated by citta which has the intention of conveying a meaning through the body. Whereas, when one stands, walks, sits or lies down naturally, without there being citta which wishes to convey a meaning, there is no rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, but there are only vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability [2] originating from citta that merely intends to move. II: The rúpa that is intimation, viññatti rúpa, must be different from the rúpas of changeability, the vikåra rúpas, even though in some texts the three vikåra rúpas are classified together with the two viññatti rúpas as five vikåra rúpas. Viññatti rúpa is different from the vikåra rúpas, because viññatti rúpa arises and falls away together with the citta that wishes to convey a meaning by it [3]. In order to have clear understanding of the rúpas of intimation and the rúpas of changeability, we should consider the six groups of rúpa originating from citta (as shown in the Abhidhammata Sangaha and its subcommentary, the Abhidhammattha-vibhåviní). Moreover, we should consider the groups of rúpa originating from temperature, utu, and nutrition, ahåra [4]. Footnotes 1. I have added this introduction. See also my ³The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena², Ch 6, on http://www.zolag.co.uk . 2. Rúpas arise in groups, kalapas consisting of at least eight rúpas: the four great Elements of Earth (solidity), Water (cohesion), Fire (temperature) and Wind (motion or pressure), and in addition the rúpas of colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essense. These are the eight inseparable rúpas. In addition there can be other rúpas, such as the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. 3. Rúpa lasts seventeen moments of citta, but the rúpa of intimation is not concrete matter but a change in rúpas as we shall see. The rúpa of intimation lasts only one moment of citta, whereas the vikåra rúpas last seventeen moments of citta. 4. There are four factors from which rúpas originate: kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. 19290 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)1.Cetasikas As Designers. A shortlived cabinet. Dear Nina, Thanks for your attention.Understanding should come first and then practice should be followed.So,I am trying to reveal the easily- understandable message to the group.Here is inline text reply as well. (Htoo). --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > I like this simile, it is refreshing. Especially the different kinds of > ministers: permanent and flexible, destructive and constructive. Good for > children as well. Did you find this in a textbook, or did you think of it > yourself? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, To be honest,it is my realisation from reading Dhamma literature that makes me these simile.This expression is not a copy from any sources. (Htoo) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- she > said we should really consider this in our life. After seeing there are > cittas with the flexible minister of vitakka, applied thought, which strikes > again and again on the object. Quite different from just seeing which does > not need vitakka in order to see. This helps us to better understand the > difference between seeing and thinking, which arises so shortly after > seeing. > Nina > op 29-01-2003 20:20 schreef htootintnaing op > htootintnaing@y...: > > > Everybody has one and the only one mind(from science point of view).Actually > > mind has as army of > > soldiers 19291 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your message which is crystal clear to me. As you described,Rupa of that kind that is two Vinattirupas called Kayavinattirupa and Vacivinattirupa have lifespan as long as citta that creates it lives. I am looking forward to more messages from you. With respects, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 1 > Bodily intimation, kåya viññatti rúpa, is a kind of rúpa, that originates > from citta. It does not originate from the other three factors that can > produce rúpa: kamma, temperature and nutrition. Bodily intimation originates > from citta that intends to convey a meaning. For example, when we > gesticulate, citta produces bodily intimation so that our intention is > expressed. > Speech intimation, vací viññatti rúpa, is another kind of rúpa that > originates from citta that intends to convey a meaning. . 19292 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing Dear Nina, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > > Dear Kom, > Thank you for your excellent explanation and reminder. See below, adding a > little. > > N; that is the qu we should always ask ourselves; before we realize it, it > is wrong again. But so good to know where we are wrong. On the other hand, > what Larry says can also be taken in the right way. It is sati sampajanna, > not self, who carefully notices. Careful, because it needs a refined > awareness and understanding to discern the different characteristics that > appear. Yes. I definitely agree with you. It is the awareness and wisdom who are careful, and not the akusala states that are mired in ignorance. > > ever more subtle kilesa. > N: We heard A. Sujin speak many times about detachment, that the > Path is all > the way about detachment. We can repeat this, but, so difficult to really > know what true detachment is. If we know more our attachment, we may > understand what detachment is, what are your views about this? Theoretical > understanding about detachment is not enough. I also agree with you here. Without knowing the different between the states with attachment, and the states without attachment, how can there be the (beginning) knowledge of the path of detachment. We hear from many suttas, when people asked the Buddha to explain to them the path (or the practice) in brief, and he said that the path leads to comprehension, detachment, enlightenment, and nibbana. We may not be able to find out for ourselves if the path that we are on leads to enlightenment or nibbana or not, but we can know, little by little, if we begin to understand more about nama and rupa, and if this leads to more attachment. If we don't know attachment as a reality, not just conceptually, how could we know that we are on the right path? > N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most > important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. > However, I > find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real > concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are > afraid that we > are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? > That would > be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. I think we need to learn what the causes and the conditions of a reality is, at first conceptually, and then in reality. The Buddha teaches about causes and effects of all realities, do we understand the conditions for the nibbana to be realized? It is the supramundane path. Do we know the cause and conditions for the supramundane path to arise? It is the mundane path. What is mundane path? The direct knowledge of realities. What conditions the direct knowledge of realities? Hearing the true dhamma, wise consideration, and the appearance of realities. As for my self, there is also another way to see. People often say, I must do this and that in order to have panna. The most common one is, if I don't have attachment toward hearing the dhamma (or to do the utmost we can do to develop panna), then how could panna be developed? For me, the question is, is it possible to develop panna without these attachments (for some people), and I think the answer is yes. I can see for myself that attachment is not a pre-requisite of developing panna: there is no need for me to encourage it. How else could panna be developed then? When there is panna knowing the benefits of panna and nibbana, and the faults of samsara! This reminds of the sutta that the Buddha said that for a Bikkhu who (rightly) develops the 8-fold path, regardless of his attachment toward enlightenments, he will (eventually) be enlightened. No attachment required. kom 19293 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hello Mike, James, Swee Boon, and All, How lovely to read your posts again, Mike. Yes, I think it is essential to know what the definition/s of the word 'love' is in a buddhist sense, and to know exactly what meaning the person using it attributes to it. The english word 'love' is so loosely used in so many different contexts, with so many gradations, that it almost has no meaning at all for clear communication. It has become just a 'filler' word indicating anything from slight approval to overpowering unwholesome emotions. When it it disguised Lobha - (raga (lust), tanha (greed) - 'it is a state of lack, need and want. It is always seeking fulfulment and lasting satisfaction, but its drive is inherently insatiable, and thus as long as it endures it maintains the sense of lack.' (Nyanaponika Thera). When I first read the Piyajatika sutta, I was unhappy at the Buddha's 'treatment' of a bereaved father. Nothing, I thought, could be more noble than the 'sacrificial' love a parent bears for their child. Even the grief (I thought) was noble. It was not 'natural' to expect people not to be attached to their children. But the Buddha (who named his son 'fetter') spoke the truth then and now - "The truth of the Truth-speaker's words doesn't change." 'Discourse on Love as the Origin of Unhappiness' - Piyajatika Sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tipitaka/message/86 "Thus it is, householder! Thus it is, householder! Grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed from love; their source is love." "Venerable Sir, to whom would it ever occur thus: 'Grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed from love; their source is love'? Venerable Sir, pleasure and gladness spring indeed from love; their source is love." Displeased with and disapproving of what the Bhagava said, the householder rose from his seat and went away." So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we back at only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Neo, > > p.s. Also please note the suggestive similarity between 'lobha' and the > Indo-European root 'leubh' at http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE281.html > > Hi Christine--I think this topic is of great importance, because of the > utterly pervasive influence of lobha on everyday life and the liklihood of > mistaking it for mettaa, mudita etc. I think this is a real touchstone of > Buddhadhamma--does it conduce to detachment? > > mike 19294 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:15pm Subject: For Momo was (Re: Photo of Rusty) Hello Paul, Yes, Rusty is my dog. I'm sorry to hear that Momo is not with you anymore. It is sad when a loved dog has to leave us. May there have been a fortunate rebirth. Here is a poem for you Paul. It is written from a Christian perspective, but it is written by someone who has had a close relationship with a dog. metta, Christine 'Just my dog' by Gene Hill "He is my other eyes that can see above the clouds; my other ears that hear above the winds. He is the part of me that can reach out into the sea. He has told me a thousand times over that I am his reason for being: by the way he rests against my leg; by the way he thumps his tail at my smallest smile; by the way he shows his hurt when I leave without taking him. (I think it makes him sick with worry when he is not along to care for me.) When I am wrong, he is delighted to forgive. When I am angry, he clowns to make me smile. When I am happy, he is joy unbounded. When I am a fool, he ignores it. When I succeed, he brags. Without him, I am only another man. With him, I am all-powerful. He is loyalty itself. He has taught me the meaning of devotion. With him, I know a secret comfort and a private peace. He has brought me understanding where before I was ignorant. His head on my knee can heal my human hurts. His presence by my side is protection against my fears of dark and unknown things. He has promised to wait for me ... whenever ... wherever-- in case I need him. And I expect I will -- as I always have." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ajahn_paul " wrote: > Is Rusty ur dog??? > > one of my dogs momo, a chow, just passed away on 27/1/2003 at 9pm. > :(::::::: > 19295 From: James Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: Your last sentence, not misleading oneself, made me laugh. It is so true. > Good to remember that panna works its own way, it does its own thing, as you > say. Usually people do not believe this, they wonder how can it be. They > underestimate the power of panna. There is no need to concentrate first, so > that panna can know realities, but some people worry that panna is not fast > enough to know the present reality. They believe that they should sit and > watch what is going on. A. Sujin said: panna can shoot from very far and > very fast. It is compared to shooting at a target. We cannot grasp this yet. > The accumulation of panna is much slower than we would like, but here there > is attachment again. > N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most > important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. However, I > find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real > concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are afraid that we > are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? That would > be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. > Thank you very much, I do appreciate what you say. > Nina. Nina, I cannot believe my eyes. Are you actually stating that one doesn't need to meditate to know present realities...all one needs is panna? And where exactly do you think panna (wisdom) comes from if it isn't from meditation? Do you realize that this position is in direct contradiction to everything the Buddha taught? Does the Abhidhamma support this position? Where did you come up with this idea? It is no wonder that you have a hard time explaining this position to others because there is absolutely no justification/foundation for it. Also, who are the 'we' that you refer to. I'm starting to get the creeps. Have I stumbled into some kind of weird Abhidhamma cult and you are its leader? I'm sorry, but memorizing a bunch of Pali terms isn't going to bring anyone panna. The eightfold path is the path to panna...and the eightfold path includes meditation. Anyone who denies that is really out of touch with reality. Metta, James 19296 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:35pm Subject: Re: Buddhist books for Children Hi Sarah, Some sites that may be helpful are: 'Once upon a time' - a collection of Buddhist Stories 0n-line http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/story/index.html http://www.dhammabooks.com/ http://www.buddhistsupplies.com/sabskid.htm http://pobox.upenn.edu/~davidtoc/books.html metta, Chris 19297 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Sarah, First of all, Happy Chinese New Year!! It took me a while to reply this message. I read what you quoted from Helmuth Hecker's article. I would rather focus on the discourse Raja Sutta. The language in the discourse is not particularly unclear. King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika might be a worldling couple. I don't think it has anything to do with different interpretations of the statement "one fnds no one dearer than oneself" though. Regards, Victor 19298 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Christine, Mike and everyone, Welcome back, Mike :-). Christine, I am having some major difficulties with the implications of non-attachment. Please put me out of my misery. Is the Buddhist path to the end of suffering a path to annihilation? When I bury my parents, I fully intend to be sad and bereaved. When my loved ones are hurt I fully intend to be hurt with them. I do not see a refuge in becoming a Zombie. I see no victory in emotional castration. Help me, Chris (charge it to Medicare :-)) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Mike, James, Swee Boon, and All, > > How lovely to read your posts again, Mike. > > Yes, I think it is essential to know what the definition/s of the > word 'love' is in a buddhist sense, and to know exactly what meaning > the person using it attributes to it. The english word 'love' is so > loosely used in so many different contexts, with so many gradations, > that it almost has no meaning at all for clear communication. It has > become just a 'filler' word indicating anything from slight approval > to overpowering unwholesome emotions. When it it disguised Lobha - > (raga (lust), tanha (greed) - 'it is a state of lack, need and > want. It is always seeking fulfulment and lasting satisfaction, but > its drive is inherently insatiable, and thus as long as it endures it > maintains the sense of lack.' (Nyanaponika Thera). > > When I first read the Piyajatika sutta, I was unhappy at the > Buddha's 'treatment' of a bereaved father. Nothing, I thought, could > be more noble than the 'sacrificial' love a parent bears for their > child. Even the grief (I thought) was noble. It was not 'natural' > to expect people not to be attached to their children. But the > Buddha (who named his son 'fetter') spoke the truth then and now - > "The truth of the Truth-speaker's words doesn't change." > > 'Discourse on Love as the Origin of Unhappiness' - Piyajatika Sutta > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tipitaka/message/86 > "Thus it is, householder! Thus it is, householder! Grief, > lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed from love; > their source is love." "Venerable Sir, to whom would it ever occur > thus: 'Grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair spring indeed > from love; their source is love'? Venerable Sir, pleasure and > gladness spring indeed from love; their source is love." Displeased > with and disapproving of what the Bhagava said, the householder rose > from his seat and went away." > > So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we back at > only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more? > > metta, > Christine 19299 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:30pm Subject: Fwd: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing --- Dear Nina and Kom, Thanks for this dialogue. I recently bought a surfski, which is a kind of racing kayak about 5.6m long. Just got back from paddling a few kms of the Waikato river on this peaceful new zealand day. You know it seems that a glint of understanding is slowly developing despite my best intentions. By this I mean that most of the time "I" believe that I know what is right. But actually it is the gentle reminders of wise friends and appreciation of the Dhamma that leads to an acceptance and 'listening' (by this I mean 'listening' patiently to the changing 'voices' at the six doors ) and study of the present moment. "I" only get in the way. with respect RobertK p.s. "'Listening' patiently to the six doors": Its hard to do, most of the time we add our own thoughts and beliefs, without even realising it. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Kom, Thank you for your excellent explanation and reminder. See below, adding a little. It is sati sampajanna, not self, who carefully notices. Careful, because it needs a refined awareness and understanding to discern the different characteristics that appear. K: The "self" that notices would be (in realities) tanha, mana, > and ditthi. If one of these is noticing the dhamma, then it > is not satipatthana that is arising, but it is the dhamma, > if misunderstood, could condition wrong views (that it is > satipatthana). The self is immensely subtle: if we don't > understand (really understand) that the Buddha's path is > about detachment all the way, we might be misled by these > ever more subtle kilesa. N: We heard A. Sujin speak many times about detachment, that the Path is all the way about detachment. We can repeat this, but, so difficult to really know what true detachment is. If we know more our attachment, we may understand what detachment is, what are your views about this? Theoretical understanding about detachment is not enough. K: Panna is accumulated. When there is enough accumulation, it > does its own thing properly. No need to be extra careful > (except in not misleading oneself). N: Your last sentence, not misleading oneself, made me laugh. It is so true. Good to remember that panna works its own way, it does its own thing, as you say. Usually people do not believe this, they wonder how can it be. They underestimate the power of panna. There is no need to concentrate first, so that panna can know realities, but some people worry that panna is not fast enough to know the present reality. They believe that they should sit and watch what is going on. A. Sujin said: panna can shoot from very far and very fast. It is compared to shooting at a target. We cannot grasp this yet. The accumulation of panna is much slower than we would like, but here there is attachment again. > K: The Buddha's compares the development of insights to wearing > away the knife's handle. It is gradual, and hardly > noticeable. When you goes for the accelerated schedule > theory, or the big-bang theory, the task at hand is already > being neglected. We should firmly remember the conditions > of panna: sitting near the true friend, hearing the true > dhamma, wise consideration, and follow the teachings the > best we can. N: I do not believe any theory could work. The wise consideration is most important but often forgotten. It is the follow up to listening. However, I find it difficult to explain this to others. Some people say, out of real concern, should I not start the real meditation now? They are afraid that we are lazy, doing nothing, or take the easy way. Can you add more? That would be helpful. I think this is a crucial point. Thank you very much, I do appreciate what you say. Nina. --- End forwarded message --- 19300 From: nidive Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 6:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi James, > (ps. I thought his post was excellent also. > It should be, it was plagarized from Lord Buddha.) Have I misled you? Haven't I included the reference sutta? In one sense of the word, aren't all of us plagarizing the Buddha's words? I think the Buddha encourages us to plagarize his words whenever APPROPRIATE. He had no attachment to his Dhamma. He did not patent nor copyright his Dhamma. He meant to share it with every being. What's important is whether we understand the meaning of his words. Attachment (or Delight) is the root of suffering and stress. Would the Buddha, knowing thus, be attached to the Dhamma or to metta? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19301 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:21pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Love Hi James & All, In Thailand there's a tradition, when someone explains the Buddha's teachings / repeats the Buddha's teachings, we can rejoice in the person's good deed [have you even run into those who said Sathu after a sermon, for example?]. However, if we happen to be forgetful and don't rejoice after seeing such deed, when we hear other people's anumoddhana, we can then remember to also anumoddhana for the person's good deed. I now have the opportunity to anumoddhana Neo's good deeds. I thank Mike for this opportunity. Good friend who reminds us to do good thing is rare. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:14 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Love > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > > No offense, but I don't understand the point of this post. ... 19302 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Love OOO, I forgot, But please remember this group policy: Please also try to avoid messages that consist only of off-topic banter, chit-chat or "me too" type responses. So, better yet, you can anumoddhana and add some more discussions.... kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Kom Tukovinit [mailto:kom@a...] > Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 8:22 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Love > > > Hi James & All, > 19303 From: Sarah Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhist books for Children Hi Christine, Thankyou for these very helpful links. I've just had a quick initial look and they seem very helpful as your links usually are. It's rather ironic that as I'm 'winding down' after teaching very intensively for a long time, that I become aware of all these resources available on Buddhist books for children. I've been lazy to check and I suppose I've always been conscious about not 'pushing a party-line' as well with the kids. A little caution to the winds, these days...;-) Btw, the Buddhadatta New Pali Course you asked about was available at Colombo airport and so probably easily available at bookshops in Colombo too. Maybe they have a link too.....or you could consider a return visit with the missing item that turned up at Brisbane airport .... Metta, Sarah ======== --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Some sites that may be helpful are: > > 'Once upon a time' - a collection of Buddhist Stories 0n-line > http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhism/story/index.html > > http://www.dhammabooks.com/ > > http://www.buddhistsupplies.com/sabskid.htm > > http://pobox.upenn.edu/~davidtoc/books.html 19304 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Love Hi Herman, and all, I'm happy to discuss things with you - only remember that this is my flawed understanding of the way it is. Hopefully others will contribute their knowledge and correction. I am operating from the perspective of 'the whole deal' - anatta, anicca, dukkha, kamma, rebirth, beginningless time, paticcasamuppada - the lot. I don't think 'designer buddhism' works, that's just a 'self' poking holes in the bits it doesn't like. I tend to try to find out for myself as much as I can about 'the truth of what really is' from what comes through the sense doors in daily life. I take the rest on trust until it can be confirmed (or not) in some way. So I guess I'm still drifting about on the misty flats, groping my way with only the light of the Dhamma as a guide. You ask: 'Is the Buddhist path to the end of suffering a path to annihilation? " This sounds like a question I once asked about how do we know our practice aimed at Nibbana doesn't make us all just lemmings running towards the cliff edge. No-one answered. I guess it all depends on 'what' it is that you think currently exists that is 'annihilated'. To understand the goal of buddhism the cessation of suffering, nibbana, I think there has to be a complete understanding of what dukkha and anatta are first. I think without that understanding one will tend to fall back on either a belief in the annihilation of the ego, or some eternal state of existence into which an ego or self enters, or with which it merges. When you bury your parents you will be sad and bereaved - that is, if you don't die first. Our death is certain, only the time of our death is uncertain. Working in a hospital, I am made aware daily of the seemingly 'unfair' and unexpected calamities that befall very surprised people, most of them not in old age. If any dear one of mine dies before me, I shall also be full of sorrow (and there is a good chance that my mother and my dog are likely candidates, realistically speaking). Ananda who spent decades with the Buddha and heard all of his teachings was still sad at his death. No need to become a zombie or emotionally castrated - and it is impossible to 'will' that to happen anyway. We are what we are. We will do what we will do as a result of accumulations and conditions. Sadness and grief (domanassa) is a mentally painful sensation, and in Abhidhamma terms is the cetasika-vedana. It is kammically unwholesome, but, for me at this stage, unavoidable. A few suttas for your consideration regarding dukkha and the ending of dukkha: Asu Sutta 'Tears' "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time -- crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing -- are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." Kotthita Sutta - Kotthita asks Sariputta "is it the case that there is anything else?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-174.html Nibbama Sutta 'Unbinding' "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant." When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-034.html Upaya Sutta 'Attached' "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-053.html There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to- being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud8-03a.html metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Christine, Mike and everyone, > > Welcome back, Mike :-). > > Christine, I am having some major difficulties with the implications > of non-attachment. Please put me out of my misery. Is the Buddhist > path to the end of suffering a path to annihilation? > > When I bury my parents, I fully intend to be sad and bereaved. When > my loved ones are hurt I fully intend to be hurt with them. > > I do not see a refuge in becoming a Zombie. > I see no victory in emotional castration. > > Help me, Chris (charge it to Medicare :-)) > > All the best > > Herman 19305 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentous occasion nr 2 Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Jon, <> I admire this response, Herman. To simply acknowledge the difference between one's own views and the teachings, rather than reject anything that doesn't appeal, takes a certain kind of courage (related, in my own case at least, to the conceit that wonders how I could be wrong :-)). <> I think this would be a fairly normal response. On the face of it, the story-line runs counter to standards we have been brought up to consider fair and decent. Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings that run counter to either our taught values or innately held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in accordance with the way things are. <> Yes, we want more feeling and emotion, and any feeling/emotion is better than none. This is also normal, but like many other aspects of our makeup, we need to ask, is it to the benefit of ourselves or others? <> Thanks. And the same to you. Jon 19306 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Howard I previously responded on the first part of your post. My apologies for being rather slow in getting round to the rest of it. --- upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Jon - > "And what is the *exertion to develop*? > "There is the case where a monk *develops* the *mindfulness factor* > for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, > resulting in letting go. He *develops* the *investigation of > qualities factor* for Awakening... dependent on seclusion... > dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. This is *called the > exertion to develop*." > > So it is the *developing* that is called the *exertion to develop*. > To my reading, this can only be referring to the moment of actual > arising of kusala, rather than any thoughts/intention/resolve about > its development. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That may be so. It may well be that, despite the misleading name (or misleading translation) "exertion to develop", what is referred to here is the developing, itself, which is a consequence in part of the "effort to develop". ---------------------------------------------- J: I have checked the PTS translation ('Gradual Sayings, Vol. II, p.15) and have also found a translation of the same sutta in Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary'. Both confirm this rendering which, as I have noted, indicates that it is the actual developing that is called the exertion to develop. There is no suggestion that I can see of development being something that occurs as a consequence of an effort to develop (conventional or otherwise). I believe that when we come across something like this that runs counter to our intuitive views we should resist the temptation to immediately rationalise or reject it, and should simply acknowledge the difference that exists and keep it in mind for future reference. If later we find it confirmed by other textual sources, then maybe we need to consider further our views on the subject. Just out of interest, here is the translation of the same passage from 'Buddhist Dictionary' (under the entry for 'padhaana'): "What now is the effort to develop? The monk develops the factors of enlightenment, bent on solitude, on detachment, on extinction, and ending in deliverance, namely: - mindfulness (sati), - investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya), - energy (viriya), - rapture (píti), - tranquillity (passaddhi), - concentraton (samádhi), - equanimity (upekkhá). This is called the effort to develop." (A. IV, 14). Note the reference to the fact that the monk '... develops the factors of enlightenment'. I think this points very much to right effort as being something that involves panna of the level of insight, rather than being some form of conventional effort. > If the resolve 'to have kusala' in > order to be free from the akusala of that moment was itself kusala, > then there would be no need 'to have kusala' (since the resolve > itself is kusala). The same goes for 'attempting to be mindful' -- > this must be a moment when mindfulness is absent, otherwise no > attempt would be necessary. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: We can "resolve" to have kusala thought and to mindful all day long, but that resolve, by itself, is insufficient. But hearing from the Buddha the aggregate of conditions needed for any given result, together with a strong desire for that result, may enable the arising of the volition to bring about certain remaining conditions that lead to path factors. ... ----------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree with you here, as long as that 'strong desire' is the kusala factor of 'wholesome wish-to-do', and is not equated with the conventional wish to develop the path, which I'm sure all of us on this list, and the rest of the Buddha community at large, have in abundance anyway, without needing to cultivate more. But regardless of how we regard the 'effort' factor, we also need to identify and understand correctly all of the factors that you refer to here as the 'aggregate of conditions' that were laid down by the Buddha, for these are all necessary prerequisites without which the development of insight cannot occur. On this score I'd like to suggest that we need to distinguish between the folloiwng: (a) the conditions the Buddha gave as necessary and indispensable for one and all -- regardless of present level of attainment or potential for attainment -- to develop the insight that leads to enlightenment, and (b) the conditions he gave, specially tailored for those with sufficiently highly developed panna and samatha, as being conducive to the attainment of enlightenment 'both ways' (i.e., enlightenment based on jhana). To my reading, the suttas make a fairly clear distinction between the 2 classes of 'audience', and I believe it's a distinction we should keep in mind when drawing any conclusions about how a given sutta relates to us. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: ... By certain physical and mental actions, in the presence of other conditions, concentration and mindfulness, for example, can be increased. ... ----------------------------------------------- Yes, but surely what we need to be clear about is what these 'physical and mental actions' and 'other conditions' expounded by the Buddha were. As I think we have agreed, well-intentioned effort is not necessarily 'right' effort for these purposes, that is, it can just as easily be 'wrong' effort. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: .... And volition plays a crucial role in this, and in all human action. ... ----------------------------------------------- Conventional volition plays a role in all actions that are conventionally regarded as 'volitional' ones (but not, of course, in the many non-volitional actions that occur in the course of a day). In dhamma terms, however, 'volition' is said to be present with every moment of consciousness regardless of the 'volitional' or otherwise nature of that moment of consciousness. As we all know from our own experience in life, kusala and akusala consciousness are not dependent on conventional volition for their arising, and furthermore, either may arise despite our (conventional) intention to have the other arise. Jon 19307 From: Sarah Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Many Names of Buddha Dear Ven Dhammapiyo (& Des), Thank you for sharing the “Many Names for the Buddha” with us. I agree full-heartedly that it’s very helpful to share any reminders which help us reflect on the qualities of the Buddha. I particularly like the way they are listed in the post with the sutta references. --- Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo wrote: > . > Dhamma requires practice but it begins with a serious commitment to > study > and learn. "The Many Names of the Buddha" is something that can be used > for > reflection akin to Samatha meditation. The references given beside them > can > provide a nice series of daily type reading for reflection, study, > practice, > and application. .... I agree with these comments. Recently in the ‘Way’ corner, from the commentary we read about the 4 objects of samatha meditation which can be frequently reflected on in daily life - Nina wrote: “sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca. N: The words , the meditation subjects on all occasions, mean: recollection of the Buddha, loving-kindness, mindfulness of death, and meditation of foulness.” I appreciate any reminders on these topics. ..... > ... we know and witness that a Refuge in Truth is the only real > protection in these troubled times. .... Yes and often we need to be reminded. Thank you. ..... > May this everyone here well, happy, safe and secure, prospering, and > ever > mindful of the Gift That Excels All Others, > > And with gratitude to Des for reminding us of the Taste of the Medicine > That > Excels All Other Tastes, ..... Thank you for these blessings and helpful comments. I’m glad to hear reminders again from Des. With metta, Sarah ===== > The > many names for the Buddha > > The following are a few of the many epithets that appear in the > suttas in reference to the Buddha. > > The indicated sutta passages contain examples. > > All-seeing: Iti 112 > Awakened one(buddho): AN XI.12 > Best of those who can be tamed: Iti 112 > Blessed one(bhagava): AN XI.12 > Bull among men: Sn III.11 > Bull among seers: Sn III.11 > Bull of the Sakyan clan: Sn III.11 > Caravan leader: Iti 84 > Conqueror of beasts: Sn III.11 > Consummate in knowledge & conduct (vijja-carana-sampanno): AN XI.12 > Dispeller of darkness: Iti 38 > Endowed with all the foremost marks: Snp III.1 > Expert with regard to the world (lokavidu): AN XI.12 > First in the world: Iti 84 > Foremost jewel: Sn III.11 > Foremost of all people: Sn III.11 > Foremost of charioteers: Thag VI.9 > Foremost of those who can cross: Iti 112 > Foremost sage: Sn III.11 > Giver of the deathless: MN 18 > Great One (naga): Ud V.6 > Great seer: Sn IV.14 > Kinsman of the sun: Sn IV.14 > Peerless bull: SN I.38 > Rightly self-awakened (samma-sambuddho): AN XI.12 > Shower of the way: MN 107 > Supreme among those who can be released: Iti 112 > Tathagata (the one "Thus-gone" or "Thus-come"): Iti 112 > Teacher of divine & human beings (sattha deva-manussanam): Iti 112 > Thoroughly mature: Iti 112 > Ultimate leader: Thag VI.9 > Unconquered conqueror: Iti 112 > Unexcelled trainer for those people fit to be tamed (anuttaro purisa- > damma-sarathi): AN XI.12 > Unsurpassed doctor and surgeon: Iti 100 > Well-gone one (sugato): AN XI.12 > Wielder of power: Iti 112 > Worthy one (arahant): AN XI.12 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > See also: Refuge: An Introduction to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha > by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 19308 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank --- "fcckuan " wrote: > Hi Jon (and Nina) If as you say, Frank (and I agree with you here), 'liberating insights don't occur while one is absorbed in jhana', then in what respect can it be said that 'jhanic level of concentration is a necessary power tool to enable one to have insight into destruction of the taints'. In other words, exactly how does the connection take effect, as you understand it? <> Is this explanation for why many people were able to attain enlightenment without first attaining jhana found in the suttas or commentaries (or is it simply a convenient rationalisation ;-))!)? <> Just to clarify use of terms here. There is (a) 'views and understanding at an intellectual level' (which we agree is not insight), and there is (b) 'liberating insight for destruction of the taints' (by which I think you mean some level of enlightenment, or at least the vipassana nanas). But what about the moments of 'ordinary' insight that must be accumulated in order to for these moments of liberating insight to eventually occur? Can there not be a level of direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma without the need for jhanic level of concentration? <> If you have the sutta reference, that would be much appreciated. Just on a minor point, once stream-entry has been gained, final release is assured. The factors that are indispensable for the attainment of arahantship are no different from the factors that are indispensable for the attainment of stream-entry (see sutta reference below) Jon SN 55.55 - 58 (CDB translation) "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry." [55] And the same 4 factors are also said to lead: to the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56] to the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57] to the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58] 19309 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Love Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Christine, Mike and everyone, You said: "I do not see a refuge in becoming a Zombie. I see no victory in emotional castration." I appreciated Chris' thoughtful response. I have another sutta to add to her several (this one perhaps a little more direct :-)) The Buddha pointed out that we have an innate belief in the 'worth' of certain feelings and emotions which, by any objective measure, are unpleasant and of no benefit to ourselves or to others. We ourselves are blind to this, although it is clear to anyone else. In this respect, the Buddha likens us to a leper (caution: gory details ahead). From the Magandiya Sutta (MN 75): "Now suppose that there was a leper covered with sores & infections, devoured by worms, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a pit of glowing embers. The more he cauterized his body over the pit of glowing embers, the more disgusting, foul-smelling, & putrid the openings of his wounds would become, and yet he would feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction because of the itchiness of his wounds. In the same way, beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures -- devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever -- indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving increases and the more they burn with sensual fever, and yet they feel a modicum of enjoyment & satisfaction dependent on the five strings of sensuality." (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn075.html) [The way this reference has been explained to me, the leper loses feeling in the affected limbs and will try anything, including burning, to reaffirm that the limb still has sense.] As you can see from this, the Buddha saw the root cause of this behaviour as attachment to sense pleasures. Like leprosy, it leads it's owner to act in a manner that makes the effects of the condition worse rather than better. I hope this helps (even if not immediately!) Jon 19310 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, and all involved with this > thread - > > > From the ATI Glossary: > ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In > > meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to > remain > collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. > Ekaggatarammana > reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of > jhana. > > (Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to > *remain* > collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the > disposition for > "the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) Thanks for bringing up this term. It's a new one for me. Does the Glossary give any references for 'ekaggatarammana' in the texts (I've not been able to find it in the sources I have available)? Thanks. Jon 19311 From: Sarah Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Victor and a few others who’ve crept in ;-), --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > First of all, Happy Chinese New Year!! > > It took me a while to reply this message. .... Kung Hei Fat Choy! I hope you and your family are enjoying some celebrations too. I’m so glad I haven’t lost you or that our little discussion hasn’t gone dead;-) ..... > > I read what you quoted from Helmuth Hecker's article. I would > rather focus on the discourse Raja Sutta. The language in the > discourse is not particularly unclear. ..... I’m happy to drop the article and focus on the Sutta. The difficulty is when two people read the same ‘not particularly unclear’ words in the sutta and come to different conclusions as you neatly summarised before: ***** V:“One interpretation to the statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" is that one is attached to oneself. The attachment to self is to be abandoned. While another interpretation to the statement is that one is dear to oneself. In this interpretation, the statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" does not mean "one is attached to oneself".” ***** Interpretation no 1) (which also relates to comments James helpfully just wrote as explained by his teacher) continues to stress in the sutta that just as one is most attached to oneself, so are others (as K.Pasenadi and Q.Mallika found out and had confirmed by the Buddha).Therefore we should treat others well and not cause them any harm. Interpretation no 2) suggests the sutta does not refer to any attachment and that ‘holding dear’ refers to wholesome states and in particular to metta, directed in the first place to oneself. Victor, please let me know if this further elaboration on your summary is correct. I agree that other modern commentators reflections or interpretations can be ignored. When we discussed the topic once before, I posted part of the commentary. Would you like to discuss this in more detail? ..... > King Pasenadi and Queen Mallika might be a worldling couple. I > don't think it has anything to do with different interpretations of > the statement "one fnds no one dearer than oneself" though. ..... The reason I mentioned this was because it is apparent in other suttas that K.Pasenadi in particular has all the usual run-of-the-mill defilements and difficulties that we have and when Q.Mallika dies, even though for much of his marriage he had not really appreciated her fine qualities, he is very shaken as a result of his strong attachment. “And when the rajah heard this (Q. Mallika had died), he was sorely grieved and sick at heart, his shoulders drooped, his mouth fell and he sat brooding, unable to speak.” (AN, bk of 5s,49) In the previous sutta (48), the Buddha had discussed how “to the unlearned, average man............................when the end is near, he mourns, pines, weeps, wails, beats his breast and falls into distraction. Monks, this man is called an unlearned average man; pierced by the poisoned dart of sorrow, he just torments himself.” In other words, love or attachment brings sorrow. On the contrary, we read that “to the learned Ariyan disciple also, monks, ageing brings old age; but when he is old, he does reflect in that foresaid way <>....and when age comes, he does not mourn nor pine nor weep nor wail nor beat his breast nor fall into distraction....drawn out is the poisoned dart of sorrow with which the unlearned average man torments himself.......”(AN, bk of 5s,48). Like Herman has suggested, for ‘unlearned average men’ (and women) like K.Pasenadi and ourselves, however much of the Teachings we’ve heard -- and K.Pasenadi had listened to the Buddha on numerous occasions --there is bound to be attachment and there is bound to be grief. At least, according to the first intepretation above, the king and queen were honest enough to recognise that the attachment to self is strongest of all. After all, when the’dear’ one dies, it is in truth the strong attachment to oneself, one’s own feelings and one’s own loss that brings the sorrow, isn’t it? Conveniently, Christine just posted from the Piyajatika Sutta (see end of post). As she mentioned, it’s not easy to accept the truth in the words. Here, piya, translated as ‘dear’ in the Raja sutta, is translated as love. I’d be interested to know whether you consider it relevant to our discussions at all. Chris also asks: “So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we back at only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more?” ..... I think we come back to seeing the value of ‘dispassion’,‘equanimity’ and ‘guarding of the sense doors’. In other words, the giving up of attachment at moments of dana, sila and bhavana. When we see more and more that what we take as ‘love’ for the other(s) is mostly attachment to oneself (MY husband, wife, child, dog and so on), we can begin to see just a little what a ‘poisoned dart’ it is and so different from moments of selfless generosity, kindness or mindfulness. Does the attachment and clinging which we so often think of as ‘love’ ever benefit those around us....hmmm? Victor, I know you’ll happily ignore parts of the post which you don’t consider relevant to our chat;-) Where would you like to go from here? Would you care to go through the complete commentary (about 3 pages)- I’d be happy to post a paragraph at a time if you don’t run away;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, I greatly appreciate your reflections on these threads as well and will be glad to hear anything further you can share with us. ================================== 19312 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, > and all involved with this > > thread - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friend, Thanks for your post.Ekagatta is to sustain the citta at the chosen object,at each next successive citta.If all Javanacittas are focussed on the intended object successively,it will become Samadhi.If this Samadhi is free from Sampayutta-Nivarana and all other members of Jhana are evidently working their business,then Samadhi becomes Jhana. Ekagatta in Dvi-Pancavinana is not samadhi or Jhana.Concentration is just a layman term. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19313 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling James --- "James " wrote: > Hi Frank (and Jon): .. .. .. > It appears to me as if Jon is suggesting that formal, Yogic > meditation > practice isn't necessary to follow what the Buddha taught. Nothing > could be further from the truth! Simply reading the suttas, > studying > dhamma, and memorizing Abhidhamma terminology, without formal > meditation practice, is like reading a menu but never ordering the > food > and eating it. That may titillate the mind, but the belly will > remain empty. An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation (whatever that may be)? Jon 19314 From: fcckuan Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, The next time I come across that reference to mindfulness not being fully developed without right concentration I'll post. Don't know it off hand. The triple knowledge: 1) knowledge of past lives 2) knowledge of destination of beings at death 3) knowledge of the destruction of the taints Proficiency in Jhana is necessary for the first two, you question the 3rd one. The reason I believe it's necessary for the 3rd as well is because it makes sense to me intellectually and intuitively that one who has such a high level of samatha and concentration and can directly view reality in such fine granularity to perceive the subtle processes that identify with this mind body complex that we take to be "I", and can even trace these "beings" through past lives and future lives revolving in samsara, it makes sense to me that these people with jhanic level of concentration can also stop their own transmigration by nonclinging to these subtle processes that make the illusion of self-identiy at the moment of physical death. One of the metta suttas gives the impression that through cultivating metta alone one can achieve enlightenment. Similarly, I think people can over extrapolate things reading suttas about what level of concentration is necessary for enlightenment. Perhaps you do need less than jhanic level of concentration to achieve full liberation. I don't know for sure (yet), but in the meantime, I'm going to shoot for the path that seems to give me the best odds for success. In other words, I believe people who can see reality in such clarity and detail via jhanic level concentration, even if it's not absolutely necessary, have the best chance of disentangling themselves from cyclic existence. The other reason to master jhanas: What if it turns out that the canon and possible lack of arahants alive today does not give quite enough clear instruction on how to get to full enlightenment? If that is the case that we don't have an unbroken lineage of enlightenend beings who can point the way to people who are ripe, which I certainly believe is a pretty strong possibility, jhanic proficiency seems like the best bet for using existing knowledge base of dhamma and making the leap and working out the details to carry it out all the way through on the own. -fk --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Frank > > --- "fcckuan " wrote: > > Hi Jon (and Nina) > > If as you say, Frank (and I agree with you here), 'liberating > insights don't occur while one is absorbed in jhana', then in what > respect can it be said that 'jhanic level of concentration is a > necessary power tool to enable one to have insight into destruction > of the taints'. In other words, exactly how does the connection take > effect, as you understand it? > > < practiced jhanas (in this lifetime).>> > > Is this explanation for why many people were able to attain > enlightenment without first attaining jhana found in the suttas or > commentaries (or is it simply a convenient rationalisation ;-))!)? > > < produces insights that affect our views and understanding at an > intellectual level, which can greatly reduce dukkha, but jhanic level > of concentration is necessary for liberating insight for destruction > of the taints.>> > > Just to clarify use of terms here. There is (a) 'views and > understanding at an intellectual level' (which we agree is not > insight), and there is (b) 'liberating insight for destruction of the > taints' (by which I think you mean some level of enlightenment, or at > least the vipassana nanas). But what about the moments of 'ordinary' > insight that must be accumulated in order to for these moments of > liberating insight to eventually occur? Can there not be a level of > direct awareness of a presently arising dhamma without the need for > jhanic level of concentration? > > < be brought to full power without jhanic level of right concentration. > Thus, a path built on mindfulness and abhidhamma study can take you > perhaps to stream entry, but not all the way to the other shore until > right concentration (and right view of course) is fully developed.>> > > If you have the sutta reference, that would be much appreciated. > > Just on a minor point, once stream-entry has been gained, final > release is assured. The factors that are indispensable for the > attainment of arahantship are no different from the factors that are > indispensable for the attainment of stream-entry (see sutta reference > below) > > Jon > > SN 55.55 - 58 (CDB translation) > "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to > the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association > with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, > practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when > developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of > stream-entry." [55] > > And the same 4 factors are also said to lead: > to the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56] > to the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57] > to the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58] > 19315 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Htoo Naing Thanks for these comments. In an earlier post you mentioned the role of vitakka in allowing/arranging for citta to take the same object for successive moments, in the development of samatha (I hope I've got that right). Would you like to say something about the respective roles of ekeggata and vitakka in samatha bhavana, as regards the citta taking the meditation subject repeatedly? Thanks Jon --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > Thanks for your post.Ekagatta is to sustain the citta at the chosen > object,at each next successive citta.If all Javanacittas are > focussed > on the intended object successively,it will become Samadhi.If this > Samadhi is free from Sampayutta-Nivarana and all other members of > Jhana are evidently working their business,then Samadhi becomes > Jhana. > > Ekagatta in Dvi-Pancavinana is not samadhi or Jhana.Concentration > is just a layman term. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 19316 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > (whatever that may be)? I think the Buddha never said that. A supporting sutta would be (if I am not wrong): Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19317 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > (whatever that may be)? > > Jon Hi Jon, Yes, the Buddha did say that meditation is necessary to achieve panna (wisdom leading to liberation). However, remember, meditation can take different forms but it is not, by any means, simply observing `present realities' when they arise with mindfulness using everyday sense perception: Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." -- "Venerable Sir," they said by way of reply. The Blessed One then spoke as follows: "These ten essentials (dhammas) must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth (to live the holy life). What are these ten? 10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth. Discourse on the Ten Dhammas; (Dasa-dhamma sutta]) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/protection.html#s1 Jon, you see, the Buddha equates superhuman faculties with higher wisdom (panna). Gaining one is automatically gaining the other. Higher faculties cannot be gained with simple, everyday mindfulness. To gain superhuman faculties one must do something superhuman, namely meditation. Superhuman faculties come about through concentration practice. Now, knowing human nature, it is very likely that you are going to turn around and say, "But the Buddha didn't say it directly in this sutta." I read in your other post where you accuse Frank of using a rationalization, but you (Nina and others with this thinking) are the ones using a mass of rationalizations. This is the second sutta I found when looking for a quote. I am not going to waste my time formulating an argument that you will more than likely just dismiss with more rationalizations. Think whatever you want. Hopefully in time you will learn the error of this thinking. Really, this is such a simple, basic, unquestioned fact about Buddhism that I cannot believe I even have to explain it. I would really like to know where some members in this group are coming up with the idea that no special practice is necessary to become enlightened. It takes a lot of special practice. Now, I believe I have met your challenge. Therefore, I offer one to you: I would like you to show me a sutta where the Buddha states that meditation isn't necessary to develop Panna. (And this statement should be simple and direct…like mine…no more than one to three sentences.) Metta, James 19318 From: Frank Kuan Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:53am Subject: great message for a new year From a taoist manual - interesting to compare with gradual training of 8fold path: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html A lifetime is just a dream, like an out breath which does not guarantee the in breath after it, and today does not insure the morrow. If life is passed aimlessly with death ever coming unexpectedly, the bones of the body will disperse, the four elements will scatter and deluded consciousness will transmigrate through another realm of existence without knowing what form it will take in another life. So birth and death will remain ignorant and will delight in laziness without a chance to awaken to Reality. Now that you have heard about the precious teaching do not go away empty-handed. If you do not listen to it you will not escape from illness and death when you grow old and will thus waste a lifetime in the human world. Therefore take a bold resolution and start to train seriously. As from today you should dwell in singleness of thought; your eyes and ears should disengage from their objects; regulate your diet; reduce your sleep; refrain from futile talk and jokes; stop thinking and worrying; cast away soft comfort and cease to discriminate between the handsome and the ugly so that you can be like the cicada feeding on dew to preserve its unsullied body and like the tortoise absorbing vitality from sunlight to enjoy long life. -fk p.s. When the taoist master talks about "train seriously", he's referring to a pretty detailed regimen with some serious jhanic practice. compare with the sutta link descriptions under the sections on vigilance and jhana. p.p.s. note to dsg moderators: yeah, I know this post is off topic. Call off the lawyers, save some bandwidth. This is my last post to dsg for the year. I confess to the crime, I'm releasing myself on my own recognizance. :-) 19319 From: Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Support for the "Disposition-to-Remain" Defintion of 'Ekagatta' Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/1/03 5:52:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Htoo Naing, Larry, Sarah, Robert, > and all involved with this > >thread - > > > > > >From the ATI Glossary: > >ekaggatarammana: Singleness of preoccupation; "one-pointedness." In > > > >meditation, the mental quality that allows one's attention to > >remain > >collected and focused on the chosen meditation object. > >Ekaggatarammana > >reaches full maturity upon the development of the fourth level of > >jhana. > > > >(Howard comment: Note the idea of allowing the attention to > >*remain* > >collected and focussed on the object. This seems close to the > >disposition for > >"the same" object to remain during subsequent mindstates.) > > Thanks for bringing up this term. It's a new one for me. Does the > Glossary give any references for 'ekaggatarammana' in the texts (I've > not been able to find it in the sources I have available)? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it does not, nor have I been able to find it elsewhere except in the writings of a number of modern "masters" such as Ajahn Chah, Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo, and Ven. Acariya Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno. ------------------------------------------------------ > Thanks. > Jon > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19320 From: Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/1/03 9:00:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Jon, > > >An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > >panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > >(whatever that may be)? > > I think the Buddha never said that. A supporting sutta would be (if > I am not wrong): > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of > awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained > internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the > mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should > it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer > in line with what he has seen &experienced: 'The mind should be > steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will > become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness > &insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > > > ============================= Yes. I certainly see this sutta as asserting the need for the jhanas. Moreover, I certainly see this sutta as calling for determined, volitional effort: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19321 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi All, > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > (whatever that may be)? I think this is a very interesting topic. To my understanding, there is a difference between the insights before the path and the path (higher wisdom) itself. Insights before the path can be developed without concentration. But to attain the path (higher wisdom), concentration is necessary. Insight and Tranquility (concentration) are neccessary to attain any path (higher wisdom). This fact is made clear in: "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html It is very evident that insight can be developed independently of tranquility. This fact is made clear in: "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html But for the path (higher wisdom) to arise, besides insight, concentration is also necessary. This fact is made clear in: On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html In all four cases, concentration is neccessary. The first three cases are cases whereby the disciple EXPLICITLY practises tranquility. In particular, the second case makes it very clear that insight can be developed independently of tranquility (develops tranquility preceded by insight). But in the fourth case, there is no mention of the EXPLICIT practice of tranquility. Instead the disciple attends to purely insight alone. When insight becomes 'full-blown', this is the time the mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. This accounts for the disciple's tranquility (concentration). Thus the path is attained for the disciple in the fourth case. I hope this helps. If I am wrong, please correct. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19322 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling James Says: Jon, you see, the Buddha equates superhuman faculties with higher wisdom (panna). Gaining one is automatically gaining the other. Higher faculties cannot be gained with simple, everyday mindfulness. To gain superhuman faculties one must do something superhuman, namely meditation. Superhuman faculties come about through concentration practice. Now, knowing human nature, it is very likely that you are going to turn around and say, "But the Buddha didn't say it directly in this sutta." I read in your other post where you accuse Frank of using a rationalization, but you (Nina and others with this thinking) are the ones using a mass of rationalizations. This is the second sutta I found when looking for a quote. I am not going to waste my time formulating an argument that you will more than likely just dismiss with more rationalizations. Think whatever you want. Hopefully in time you will learn the error of this thinking. Really, this is such a simple, basic, unquestioned fact about Buddhism that I cannot believe I even have to explain it. I would really like to know where some members in this group are coming up with the idea that no special practice is necessary to become enlightened. It takes a lot of special practice. Now, I believe I have met your challenge. Therefore, I offer one to you: I would like you to show me a sutta where the Buddha states that meditation isn't necessary to develop Panna. (And this statement should be simple and direct.like mine.no more than one to three sentences.) Metta, James Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a Sutta that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane jhanas.or faculties. Here is that Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is entitled the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly insight is dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as saying is that if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can still develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the Dharma, etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better meditation practice :) Ray 19323 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Jon and Mike, op 31-01-2003 06:38 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Mike > > Great to have you back again :-)), :-)). Nina: yes, it is wonderful to have you back, Mike. Very good you brought up kamma, this point is difficult. As you say, akusala comes so natural with us, how natural is attachment. Your point was a condiiton for Jon to explain kamma so well with all the relevant texts. Jon: If I remember > correctly, this class of attachment is referred to somewhere in the > teachings as attachment that is 'to be followed' (perhaps someone > will remember the source, it has been quoted on-list before). Put > another way, this akusala volition simply does not involve the degree > of danger that other akusala volition does. N: There are the terms sama-lobha, sama meaning *even*: lobha that is no very harmful, and visama-lobha, lobha that really harms. In The Guide, Netti, there are the terms: that is to be followed, and Rob quoted this before. We studied this with Jim. It is a difficult text, though. Lobha for attainment that is to be followed, or, that can be followed. This is what we saw in the commentary to the text about jhanas recently quoted by Frank, chanda raga for arahatship. Nina 19324 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 44, Comm, Deportment and metta Hi Larry and all, This may seem complicated for some people, as the Tika deals here with the different groups, kalapas, of rupa. The element of wind , motion, is often translated as oscillation. In my tran of Dhamma Issues 3, the groups of rupa including bodily intimation are further explained. The word *expression* is the intimation rupa. To what purpose do we study such details? We have to remember that all this is in the context of the satipatthana sutta. As Rob K said, we are so attached to our speech, but in reality there are many different elements that come into action, and that just for a moment. Satipatthana must lead to more detachment from all these fleeting elements. When we attach less importance to *my speech*, it helps us to think twice before we utter an unpleasant word. This is taught by the Buddha: samvara sila, restraint of the sense-doors, that is, guarding of the sense-doors through satipatthana. Here is the connection with metta. It is a long way to really see ourselves as fleeting elements, but this leads to attaching less importance to *ourselves*. Is it worth clinging to what are merely elements? We find it so important how we feel in a day, but we forget that feeling is very momentary, only an element. We attach great importance to praise and blame, but we forget that these are only moments of experiencing an object. We may say to ourselves a thousand times that in order to be able to help others we have to put ourselves in the back ground, but we can find out that this sometimes works, but that many times we fail. The reason is that merely thinking is not very effective. Satipatthana is effective, but, as Jon reminded us, there is no immediate result. Being less fixed upon oneself will lead to more metta. This is what A. Sujin means when she tells us: there is metta when you do not think of yourself. Nina. op 31-01-2003 00:52 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > [T] "Produces the process of oscillation." Brings about the group of > materiality with the quality of oscillation in excess. > > [T] This group of materiality is that of the pure octad consisting of > the Four Great Primaries [mahabhuta] symbolized by earth, water, fire > and air, and the four derived from these: color, smell, taste and > nutritive essence [pathavi apo tejo vayo vanna gandha rasa oja]. > > [T] "Excess" is to be taken here by way of capability (adequacy or > competency) and not by way of measure (size or amount). > > [T] "The process of oscillation produces expression." This was said > concerning the process of oscillation arisen from the thought of going. > This process is a condition to the supporting with energy, the bearing > up, and the movement of the conascent body of materiality. > > [T] "Expression" is that change which takes place together with the > intention. > > [T] "Oscillation" is mentioned by way of a predominant condition > [adhika bhava] and not by way of production through oscillation alone. > Otherwise the state of derived materiality pertaining to expression > would not be a fact [aññatha viññattiya upadaya rupa bhavo > durupapado siya]. > 19325 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no > meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a Sutta > that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane jhanas.or > faculties. Here is that Sutta, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is entitled > the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. (James: "Ray, Yes, one doesn't need to achieve the highest jhanas or to have the powers of multiplicity, levitation, clairvoyance, etc., to become enlightened. However, a certain degree of formal meditation (concentration) practice is necessary…be that sitting, walking, standing, sitting, or concentration on meditation objects (pure colors, water, or fire). There is an important notice placed at the beginning of this sutta which should be noted: Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.") I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I > think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly insight is > dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as saying is that > if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can still > develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the Dharma, > etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better meditation > practice :) Ray (I did not see Nina (or Jon) saying this at all. I saw them as stating that dhamma studies can replace concentration practice and that is perfectly acceptable under what the Buddha taught. I strongly disagree. Please re-read what Nina wrote and you will see why I came to my conclusions. However, if she corrects my misinterpretation of her position, I will reconsider and apologize. Metta, James). 19326 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Sarah and all, Thank you for the reply. Searching all directions with my awareness, I find no one dearer than myself. There is no one dearer than myself. There is no one dearer than yourself. There is no one dearer than oneself. Whether one is a worldling or not. In the first part of the exclamation in Raja Sutta: Searching all directions with one's awareness, one finds no one dearer than oneself. the Buddha stated a universal truth, a truth that is valid to anyone and everyone. Based on this truth, the Buddha stated the ethical principle in the second part of the exclamation: In the same way, others are fiercely dear to themselves. So one should not hurt others if one loves oneself. This ethical principle, as I see it, is based on empathy, an understanding that there is no one more dear to others than themselves. I would like to bring to attention the discourse Piya Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html In this discourse, the Buddha said: "That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Those who engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct are not dear to themselves. Even though they may say, 'We are dear to ourselves,' still they aren't dear to themselves. Why is that? Of their own accord, they act toward themselves as an enemy would act toward an enemy; thus they aren't dear to themselves. But those who engage in good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, & good mental conduct are dear to themselves. Even though they may say, 'We aren't dear to ourselves,' still they are dear to themselves. Why is that? Of their own accord, they act toward themselves as a dear one would act toward a dear one; thus they are dear to themselves." I think there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself means the same as being attached to oneself. In Piyajatika Sutta, the Buddha explained that sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear. How are sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair born from one who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? Through/by craving. There is room to consider whether someone being dear to one means the same as one is attached to him or her. [snip] .... > V:"One interpretation to the statement "one finds no one dearer than > oneself" is that one is attached to oneself. The attachment to self > is to be abandoned. While another interpretation to the statement is > that one is dear to oneself. In this interpretation, the > statement "one finds no one dearer than oneself" does not mean "one > is attached to oneself"." > ***** > Interpretation no 1) (which also relates to comments James helpfully just > wrote as explained by his teacher) continues to stress in the sutta that > just as one is most attached to oneself, so are others (as K.Pasenadi and > Q.Mallika found out and had confirmed by the Buddha).Therefore we should > treat others well and not cause them any harm. > > Interpretation no 2) suggests the sutta does not refer to any attachment > and that `holding dear' refers to wholesome states and in particular to > metta, directed in the first place to oneself. > > Victor, please let me know if this further elaboration on your summary is > correct. This is mostly correct. However, the second interpretation has not touched upon that 'holding oneself dear' and/or 'holding dear' refers to wholesome states and in particular to metta, directed in the first place to oneself. [snip] > In the previous sutta (48), the Buddha had discussed how "to the > unlearned, average man............................when the end is near, he > mourns, pines, weeps, wails, beats his breast and falls into distraction. > Monks, this man is called an unlearned average man; pierced by the > poisoned dart of sorrow, he just torments himself." In other words, love > or attachment brings sorrow. I think the word "love" has different meanings in the English language. I don't think that love in the sense of metta/loving- kindness brings sorrow. Attachment to sensuality does bring sorrow. > On the contrary, we read that "to the learned Ariyan disciple also, monks, > ageing brings old age; but when he is old, he does reflect in that > foresaid way <>....and when age > comes, he does not mourn nor pine nor weep nor wail nor beat his breast > nor fall into distraction....drawn out is the poisoned dart of sorrow with > which the unlearned average man torments himself......."(AN, bk of 5s,48). > Like Herman has suggested, for `unlearned average men' (and women) like > K.Pasenadi and ourselves, however much of the Teachings we've heard -- and > K.Pasenadi had listened to the Buddha on numerous occasions -- there is > bound to be attachment and there is bound to be grief. > > At least, according to the first intepretation above, the king and queen > were honest enough to recognise that the attachment to self is strongest > of all. After all, when the'dear' one dies, it is in truth the strong > attachment to oneself, one's own feelings and one's own loss that brings > the sorrow, isn't it? It is craving that leads to sorrow. Craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. Craving for forms, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangibles, craving for mind-objects. > > Conveniently, Christine just posted from the Piyajatika Sutta (see end of > post). > > As she mentioned, it's not easy to accept the truth in the words. Here, > piya, translated as `dear' in the Raja sutta, is translated as love. I'd > be interested to know whether you consider it relevant to our discussions > at all. > > Chris also asks: "So what sort of 'love' conduces to detachment. Are we > back at > only 'loving-kindness' or 'compassion', or is there more?" > ..... > I think we come back to seeing the value of `dispassion',`equanimity' and > `guarding of the sense doors'. In other words, the giving up of attachment > at moments of dana, sila and bhavana. When we see more and more that what > we take as `love' for the other(s) is mostly attachment to oneself (MY > husband, wife, child, dog and so on), we can begin to see just a little > what a `poisoned dart' it is and so different from moments of selfless > generosity, kindness or mindfulness. Does the attachment and clinging > which we so often think of as `love' ever benefit those around us....hmmm? I think it might be a good idea to distinguish what is meant by the word "love" and what is meant by the word "attachment". If someone is dear to me, does it mean I am attached to him or her? Again, there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself means being attached to oneself. Love as metta is a quality that will definitely benefit those around us. Attachment and clinging do not. > > Victor, I know you'll happily ignore parts of the post which you don't > consider relevant to our chat;-) Where would you like to go from here? If you like, we can discuss Piya Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html > Would you care to go through the complete commentary (about 3 pages)- I'd > be happy to post a paragraph at a time if you don't run away;-) Yeah, we can go through that. One paragraph at a time would be easier to read and digest. A long message can be overwhelming. > > Metta, > > Sarah Regards, Victor 19327 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 1:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Way 42, Comm, Deportment (technical) [technical remarks for Pali literates] Dear Nina (and Kom), Below are just a few remarks on your translation of the passages below. Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 19:19:22 +0100 From: nina van gorkom Subject: Re: Way 42, Comm, Deportment << Dear Kom, the Pali has kammatthana, usually translated as meditation subject. It is used for samatha and vipassana. Here, it could mean samatha, since satipatthana is also mentioned. As I quoted : eva.m bhuutassa cassa kuto kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavoti aaha ``kamma.t.thaana.m vaa satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaa vaa na hotii''ti. indeed, how can there for such a person be the development of a meditation subject, and therefore he said: there is no development of a meditation subject nor of satipatthana. >> Jim: I think it is not correct to translate "kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavo" or "kamma.t.thaana.m" as "the development of a meditation subject" as there is no "bhaavanaa" associated in either case as it only extends to "satipa.t.thaana" even though "kamma.t.thaanabhaavanaa" can be found in various passages elsewhere. "kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavo" means "the existence or presence of the meditation subject, etc. (aadi = etc. and refers to the development of satipatthana)". The sentence is rather difficult to put into idiomatic English so I'll just give what I've been able to make of it so far as I find the .tiikaa-s often contain phrases that are very difficult to understand (really out of my depth!). For the following reason: "and of this (the knowing of the inferior kind) being so (neither having gotten rid of the belief in a living being nor having rooted out the perception of a self) where is (the existence of) the meditation subject and the development of satipatthana?", he said "there is neither the meditation subject nor the development of satipatthana." Also in your translation of the following just before the above: . . . apa.tipakkhabhaavato, ananabruuhanato vaa. (from the Burmese CSCD reading) Jim: I think "ananabruuhanato" is mostly likely a typo for "ananubruuhanato". Nina: . . . because he does not develop the opposite quality (pa.tipakkha), he does not applies himself to development Jim: The PTS corresponding phrase in the tika for DN 22 reads: . . . appa.tipakkhabhaavato anubruuhanato. -- Sv-p.t II 384 The PTS and Burmese spellings of the second term are exactly the opposites of each other. I think the PTS reading makes more sense. According to the CPD: "anubruuhana" has the meanings of "increase, strengthening, affirmation", so the strengthening (or re-enforcing) of or affirmation to the perception of a self sounds like a reasonable possibility. My translation: . . . owing to non-opposition or affirmation. Best wishes, Jim ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Weight Age Gender Female Male 19328 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: The world and dhammas - 1 Hi Jon, Happy Chinese New Year. Thanks for the references. What disintegrates is called 'the world', and the five aggregates are called 'the world.' I don't think the Buddha taught what is taken for oneself is or what we take for ourselves is. When the Buddhat taught what the five aggregates are*, he did not teach that they are what are taken for oneself. I appreciate the The world and dhammas series. Regards, Victor *Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48, Khandha Sutta, Aggregates http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- "yu_zhonghao " > wrote: > Jon, > > > > I would be interested to know where in the Pali Canon the Buddha > > taught that "whatever is taken for oneself or the world in general > > is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas." > > > > I do see some problem with the statement "whatever is taken for > > oneself or the world in general is in fact nothing more than the 5 > > khandhas." The problem I see is not that whether it is true or > > false. The problem I see is whether the Buddha actually taught it. > > I am glad you asked this. It is a very important issue. To my > understanding, the whole of the teachings is directed towards the > development of the path to enlightenment by means of the > understanding of (insight into) the true nature of the presently > arising dhammas/fundamental phenomena/realities. To help people with > different predispositions and levels of understanding, the Buddha > presented and explained these phenomena in different ways. > > For ease of discussion here, I would like to expand my statement a > little and then discuss it in 3 separate parts, with supporting > quotes for each part. So my statement, > "The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world > around us is in fact nothing more than the 5 khandhas, and that each > of these khandhas is not self." > > now becomes: > (1) The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world > around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena (dhammas). > (2) These phenomena are not self. (3) These phenomena can be > classified in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), > aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus). > > Taking the first part of that statement, > "The Buddha taught that what we take for ourselves and the world > around us is in fact nothing more than different phenomena > (dhammas)", > here are 2 suttas from the Samyutta Nikaya that I read as saying just > this. > > 'The All' SN XXXV, 23 > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would > say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned > on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be > unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? > Because it lies beyond range." > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-023.html) > > 'The World' SN XXXV, 82 > Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having > bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said > to the Blessed One: "'The world, the world (loka),' it is said. In > what respect does the word 'world' apply? > "Insofar as it disintegrates (lujjati), monk, it is called the > 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms > disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye consciousness disintegrates. > Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises > in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain > or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. > "The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate... > "The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate... > "The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate... > "The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate... > "The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at > the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect > disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on > contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or > neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too disintegrates. > "Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'" > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-082.html) > > I see these suttas as explaining that the conventional 'all' and > 'world' of people and things is in fact different phenomena. > > Jon > > (Parts 2 and 3 to follow) 19329 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: Love Hi Christine & Jon, Thanks for your helpful contributions. I'll take some time and digest them. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Herman, and all, > > I'm happy to discuss things with you - only remember that this is my > flawed understanding of the way it is. Hopefully others will > contribute their knowledge and correction. 19330 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hello James, Ray and All, You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:] "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief." "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." Food for thought. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > > > Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no > > meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a > Sutta > > that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane > jhanas.or > > faculties. Here is that Sutta, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is > entitled > > the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. > > (James: > "Ray, > > Yes, one doesn't need to achieve the highest jhanas or to have the > powers of multiplicity, levitation, clairvoyance, etc., to become > enlightened. However, a certain degree of formal meditation > (concentration) practice is necessary…be that sitting, walking, > standing, sitting, or concentration on meditation objects (pure > colors, water, or fire). > > There is an important notice placed at the beginning of this sutta > which should be noted: > > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not > deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make > up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny > that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in > physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the > formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release > through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 > (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released > in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context > of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's > every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this > discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining > Awakening.") > > I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I > > think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly > insight is > > dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as > saying is that > > if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can > still > > develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the > Dharma, > > etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better > meditation > > practice :) Ray > > (I did not see Nina (or Jon) saying this at all. I saw them as > stating that dhamma studies can replace concentration practice and > that is perfectly acceptable under what the Buddha taught. I > strongly disagree. Please re-read what Nina wrote and you will see > why I came to my conclusions. However, if she corrects my > misinterpretation of her position, I will reconsider and apologize. > Metta, James). 19331 From: Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 44, Comm, Deportment and metta Hi Nina, Thanks for the encouragement. I don't know what all this means, but that's okay, my body doesn't care. I've been a little preccupied lately. Someone gave me a computer and I've been wrestling with it, trying to understand how to work it. So far, it's gotten the best of me. Larry 19332 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Christine, Thanks very much for the notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi :) Ray ___________________________________________ Hello James, Ray and All, You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." Food for thought. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" > > > Hi James, while I do not remember a Sutta where the Buddha says no > > meditation is necessary for Enlightenment to arise. But there is a > Sutta > > that says that it is not necessary to develop the supermundane > jhanas.or > > faculties. Here is that Sutta, > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html. It is > entitled > > the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70. > > (James: > "Ray, > > Yes, one doesn't need to achieve the highest jhanas or to have the > powers of multiplicity, levitation, clairvoyance, etc., to become > enlightened. However, a certain degree of formal meditation > (concentration) practice is necessary.be that sitting, walking, > standing, sitting, or concentration on meditation objects (pure > colors, water, or fire). > > There is an important notice placed at the beginning of this sutta > which should be noted: > > Translator's note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a > meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having > practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not > support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not > deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make > up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny > that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in > physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the > formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "release > through discernment" is no different from that given in AN IX.44 > (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released > in both ways" given in AN IX.43 and AN IX.45). Taken in the context > of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's > every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this > discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining > Awakening.") > > I see enlightenment as a gradual process and I > > think there are various ways for panna to arise. While certainly > insight is > > dependent on some level of concentration, what I read Nina as > saying is that > > if one is stuck for some reason on meditation practice, one can > still > > develop panna through contemplation, reading or listening to the > Dharma, > > etc. I would expect such a development would also lead to better > meditation > > practice :) Ray > > (I did not see Nina (or Jon) saying this at all. I saw them as > stating that dhamma studies can replace concentration practice and > that is perfectly acceptable under what the Buddha taught. I > strongly disagree. Please re-read what Nina wrote and you will see > why I came to my conclusions. However, if she corrects my > misinterpretation of her position, I will reconsider and apologize. > Metta, James). 19333 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 6:26pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello James, Ray and All, > You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by > Bhikkhu Bodhi: > > "Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the > Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, > sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire > conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. > [The Blessed One said:] > "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, > afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) > "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what > was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the > Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand > in detail what has been stated in brief." > "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the > stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) > > "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane > nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the > Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, > path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises > later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of > phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): > namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that > is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." > > Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing > the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is > meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration > (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration > (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration > (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the > advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. > Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of > the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk- > pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without > previously established (concentration) that has acquired the > characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said > referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight > (vipassanayanika)..." > > Food for thought. > > metta, > > Christine Christine, You may be surprised that I don't disagree with this sutta or the commentary of it…because it doesn't disprove what I have been saying. I have been saying that meditation is necessary; naturally I mean Vipassana meditation. Buddhist meditation is broken down into two types: samatha and vipassana. In this sutta, the Buddha wanted to emphasize that he doesn't agree with pure, concentration meditation (trance meditation). He wanted to emphasize that insight into the nature of reality was necessary before nibbana was possible… pure concentration, like that practiced by the other ascetics of his time, wasn't sufficient. His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates; which is vipassana meditation. I am not sure what your interpretation of this material is because you just say it is `food for thought'. What are your thoughts? If you believe that awareness of the transience of `The All' can be known without building stronger than normal powers of concentration and then directing that powerful concentration to the nature of the aggregates, I believe you are mistaken (this seems to be your implication). Memorizing nama/rupa categorizations and trying to apply them with simple mindfulness during everyday perception isn't necessarily a bad thing to be doing, but that isn't what the Buddha taught…and it isn't the path of panna fruition. Metta, James 19334 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that > concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates; > which is vipassana meditation. Doesn't that correspond to the first method described in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. What about the other three methods as described by the Buddha? And by concentration, do you mean the jhanic level of concentration? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19335 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:28pm Subject: Regarding the Teachings Dear Group, I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist Lists seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I know that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a Different Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the scripture? How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or Digha or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about the Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from the suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the sutta gives. Why is this? Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can we be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to writing? I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures are unadulterated? metta, Christine 19336 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > His method was to develop concentration and then to direct that > > concentration to the inherent transience of the aggregates; > > which is vipassana meditation. > > Doesn't that correspond to the first method described in > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > What about the other three methods as described by the Buddha? (James: Hi NEO, The other three methods that you are referring to weren't `taught' by the Buddha, they were `observed' by Ananda. The Buddha taught a general outline that allowed for some flexibility for individual personalities and accumulations from previous lifetimes. He taught the basic guidelines of tranquility = concentration = insight into realities. Some people had developed tranquility in previous lifetimes so concentration came first, then tranquility arose second… or they developed both at the same time. Those with a young karma stream needed to work a long time on tranquility before getting any amount of concentration. Those with a lot of both tranquility and concentration in previous lifetimes only needed a little bit of both before becoming enlightened…sometimes just from listening to a sutta. We each start somewhere different. Personally, when I meditate (which I just finished doing for 45 minutes) I develop a small amount of concentration first and then focus the concentration on relaxing the body and mind. Then I absorb my mind into the moments of awareness of body sensations and brain functioning (I have been working on trying to have the same amount of relaxation and awareness of the right side of my body as my left…I have less awareness of the right side and that must be due to the dominance of my right-brain thinking [which controls the the left side of my body]). > And by concentration, do you mean the jhanic level of concentration? (James: Maybe. Frankly, I don't worry or think about jhanic levels. I take it as it comes. It is not like at some point in my meditation a flashing neon sign is going to appear in my mind stating "Congratulations! You have just reached Jhanic Level One! 5,000 Bonus Points!" ;-) Metta, James) > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19337 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > He taught the basic guidelines of tranquility = concentration = > insight into realities. Some people had developed tranquility in > previous lifetimes so concentration came first, then tranquility > arose second… or they developed both at the same time. Those with > a young karma stream needed to work a long time on tranquility > before getting any amount of concentration. Those with a lot of > both tranquility and concentration in previous lifetimes only > needed a little bit of both before becoming enlightened…sometimes > just from listening to a sutta. I am getting confused. What's the difference between concentration and tranquility? Doesn't tranquility mean concentration and concentration mean tranquility? In the context of AccessToInsight, tranquility means samatha which means concentration, is that not? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19338 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:15pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: < snip > (James: Maybe. Frankly, I don't worry or think about jhanic levels. I take it as it comes. It is not like at some point in my meditation a flashing neon sign is going to appear in my mind stating "Congratulations! You have just reached Jhanic Level One! 5,000 Bonus Points!" ;-) Metta, James) KKT: But what is your reaction if the flashing neon sign stated "Congratulations! You have just hit the jack-pot! Liberaaaatiooon!" ;-)) KKT 19339 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:24pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > I am getting confused. > > What's the difference between concentration and tranquility? Doesn't > tranquility mean concentration and concentration mean tranquility? > > In the context of AccessToInsight, tranquility means samatha which > means concentration, is that not? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; however, concentration and insight can be used interchangeably in the context of Vipassana meditation. Tranquility is a psychosomatic response to thinking patterns and mood; concentration is maintaining perception of one mental object (or similar mental objects, like breath sensation) for successive mind moments (cittas). For example, a heroin addict may have an extremely focused and concentrated mind on getting a heroin fix, but that addict's body and mood is anything but tranquil. In meditation, focusing too much energy into concentration can imbalance tranquility and too much energy put into tranquility can imbalance concentration. That is why the Buddha also taught the importance of the proper amount of energy that one expends into meditation…to balance tranquility and concentration. Metta, James 19340 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 > KKT: But what is your reaction > if the flashing neon sign stated > "Congratulations! You have just > hit the jack-pot! Liberaaaatiooon!" > > > ;-)) > > > KKT Hi KKT, LOL! Hmmm...I would probably think to myself, "This is great, but why hasn't KKT uploaded a photo of himself to DSG yet?" :-) Metta, James 19341 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:31pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, I find the article Befriending the Suttas Some Suggestions for Reading the Pali Discourses by John Bullitt http://www.accesstoinsight.org/sutta101.html reasonable and I think it has answers to some of your questions. Regards, Victor > Dear Group, > > I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist Lists > seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I know > that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People > of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a Different > Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we > disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the > scripture? > How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in > concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or Digha > or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about the > Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from the > suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of > the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? > Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no > sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems > quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the sutta > gives. Why is this? > Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the > Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures > change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can we > be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even > accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha > couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the > welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to > writing? > I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures are > unadulterated? > > metta, > Christine 19342 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:41pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; I am not sure to agree with you or not. But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts for tranquility. If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19343 From: James Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 8:58pm Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; > > I am not sure to agree with you or not. > > But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop > tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When > there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and > the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts > for tranquility. > > If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, You are over-analyzing the matter. In order for there to be Right Concentration there has to be Right Tranquility, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing and one can occur without the other. After all, there is dependent origination. The Buddha stated Right Concentration in the Eightfold Path because it is the more important of the two…it is the deciding factor in the gaining of insight. Tranquility is not the deciding factor at all…if it was, everyone who takes a vacation to Hawaii would become enlightened! ;-) Metta, James 19344 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Victor, I understand John Bulitt to be saying 'don't worry about having to know whether the Buddha actually said everything in the Suttas, find out for yourself if it is true'. Sounds reasonable. His assumption seems to be that one will find that it all proves to be true. But what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the scriptures. Thanks for the link, Victor - I've only had a brief look so far, and it does seem very worthwhile. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I find the article > > Befriending the Suttas > Some Suggestions for Reading > the Pali Discourses > by > John Bullitt > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/sutta101.html > > reasonable and I think it has answers to some of your questions. > > Regards, > Victor 19345 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > But > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the > scriptures. > Hi Christine Perhaps you have stumbled upon the meaning of the old Japanese saying "praying to the Buddha, we all go to hell"? Andrew 19346 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Neo, James is correct in this point concentration is not the same as tranquility. It may be that in Buddhism if you concentrate during meditation you may find tranquility but in real life the two terms are completely different. Metta. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 03:58 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; > > I am not sure to agree with you or not. > > But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop > tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When > there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and > the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts > for tranquility. > > If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, You are over-analyzing the matter. In order for there to be Right Concentration there has to be Right Tranquility, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing and one can occur without the other. After all, there is dependent origination. The Buddha stated Right Concentration in the Eightfold Path because it is the more important of the two…it is the deciding factor in the gaining of insight. Tranquility is not the deciding factor at all…if it was, everyone who takes a vacation to Hawaii would become enlightened! ;-) Metta, James 19347 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:54pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find concentration. No. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 03:41 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; I am not sure to agree with you or not. But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts for tranquility. If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19348 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 9:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Correction, Do I find tranquility. No. Venerable Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu [mailto:sanz@n...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 04:54 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find concentration. No. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 03:41 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > No, concentration and tranquility are not the same thing; I am not sure to agree with you or not. But I think that the purpose of concentration practice is to develop tranquility. In this way, I think concentration == tranquility. When there is right concentration, the five hindrances are suppressed and the five factors of concentration appears. Their appearance accounts for tranquility. If they are different, wouldn't we have a Nine-Fold Path instead? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19349 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > No. But this is wrong concentration. Wrong concentration cannot produce tranquility. In another example given by James (which I have no wish to continue to respond to, because I do not really know how to explain to him my position, and he flares up pretty easily), he says a person who goes on vacation (to Hawaii) has tranquility. This is NOT tranquility as taught by the Buddha. A person who goes on vacation is attached to sensual desires of the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Tranquility as taught by the Buddha has the suppression of sensual desires. Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? PASSION is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of PASSION is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html With Great Respect, NEO Swee Boon 19350 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:25pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Andrew, A coincidence that you should reply Andrew :-) ... I was re-aranging the study today and came across a booklet by Natasha Jackson from the Buddhist Society of N.S.W., that you gave me at Cooran. Started looking through it again, as one does. It is this booklet and some scripture quotes it contains that's proving to be so disconcerting. I expect I'll get over it. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > But > > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, > > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened > > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the > > scriptures. > > > > Hi Christine > Perhaps you have stumbled upon the meaning of the old Japanese saying > "praying to the Buddha, we all go to hell"? > Andrew 19351 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, This is a gem I found on http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ma/magadha.htm "The Magadhabhásá is regarded as the speech of the Áriyans (e.g., Sp.i.255). If children grow up without being taught any language, they will spontaneously use the Magadha language; it is spread all over Niraya, among lower animals, petas, humans and devas (VibhA.387f)." Now VibhA is apparently the Sammoha-Vinodaní, Vibhanga Commentary. The quote suggests to me that if you accept the texts or commentaries on face value (without relying on your own experience) than you are possibly a little bit silly. (no doubt someone will prove me wrong :-)) Further re your post, to quote a single sutta or three in defense of an already held viewpoint is a dubious practice (I am certainly not speaking about you at all here, Christine :-)) Unless one gets the "spirit" of what is being said, and the background against which it is said, which is only possible by a very broad reading, including non-canonical sources and sources critical of the material at hand, one is likely to misinterpret according to one's own intention. As as example, take formal meditation. I do not wish to discuss formal meditation at all, and wil not reply to questions about it. I am referring to formal meditation to illustrate my point in the previous paragraph only. For me, it is not possible to read the suttas or any other relevant material and not come away with the idea that the Buddha was a proponent of sitting meditation. But there are plenty among us who latch onto a word here and the lack of a word there to justify their own positions. This is fine with me. I am illustrating the phenomenon of selective reading only. I believe that it is not possible to map all of the basic ten moral acts (dasa kusala) to western urban culture. The Buddha taught in his life and time, we cannot contemplate the Tipitaka as a closed canon without rendering it useless. It is highly significant that the Buddha did not appoint a successor. There is no vicarious liberation, we must all achieve our own. And while doing so, we must be islands to our selves. Still, it is nice that our islands are nearby each other's and that we are within shouting distance :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist Lists > seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I know > that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People > of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a Different > Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we > disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the > scripture? > How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in > concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or Digha > or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about the > Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from the > suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of > the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? > Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no > sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems > quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the sutta > gives. Why is this? > Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the > Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures > change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can we > be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even > accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha > couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the > welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to > writing? > I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures are > unadulterated? > > metta, > Christine 19352 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > No. Once again, I refer to my favourite sutta. I find that there is indeed a subtle difference between tranquility and (right) concentration. Tranquility arises out of the Noble Eight-fold Path, which includes Right Concentration. But tranquility does not precede (right) concentration as claimed by James. Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.204 Kimsuka Sutta The Riddle Tree "Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html The route by which the swift pair of messengers (Tranquility and Insight) had come is the Noble Eight-fold Path. The Noble Eight-fold Path enables the arising of Tranquility and Insight. And Tranquility and Insight are necessary for the attainment of Unbinding. With Great Respect, NEO Swee Boon 19353 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:10pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Herman, I think my difficulty is that I have tended to treat the buddhist scriptures in the same way I was taught to regard the Holy Bible - as sacred writings of divine origin and authority, which under no circumstances was to be questioned. And sometimes, it seems to me, that buddhists regard the Canon in the same way. So when one comes across something that causes a "But that I can't believe" reaction, it prompts a re-assessment of a previous comfortable certainty regarding the infallibility of the Teachings. The dilemma for me is that either the teachings are the unadulterated word of the buddha, in which case I have some problems - or - the teachings have changed over time with accretions and alterations, are not exactly what the Buddha taught. In which case, I have a different set of problems. I think my raft has some holes, but I'm bailing fast. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > I believe that it is not possible to map all of the basic ten moral > acts (dasa kusala) to western urban culture. The Buddha taught in his > life and time, we cannot contemplate the Tipitaka as a closed canon > without rendering it useless. > > It is highly significant that the Buddha did not appoint a successor. > There is no vicarious liberation, we must all achieve our own. And > while doing so, we must be islands to our selves. Still, it is nice > that our islands are nearby each other's and that we are within > shouting distance :-) > > > All the best > > > Herman > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > I've been thinking lately that much of the posting on Buddhist > Lists > > seems to come down to arguing over points in the scriptures. I > know > > that many of the practitioners of the Theistic religions are People > > of the Book - are Buddhists any different, just People of a > Different > > Book? Do we value 'experience' over 'sutta', or do we > > disregard 'experience' and re-interpret the world to fit the > > scripture? > > How are we supposed to regard The Pali Canon - as Holy Writ set in > > concrete? Is there an Order of Precedence? Is the Majjhima or > Digha > > or Samyutta Nikaya more important than the others? or what about > the > > Anguttara Nikaya? Many arguments use on second-hand quotes from > the > > suttas not on Access To Insight, or commentaries that a handful of > > the people have actually read. What about these Commentaries? > > Often they seem to explain suttas to the point that one feels no > > sutta can be taken on face value. "The Real Meaning" often seems > > quite removed from that which a straight forward reading of the > sutta > > gives. Why is this? > > Just how sure can we be that the scriptures are the Word of the > > Buddha? Four or five hundred years is a long time ... cultures > > change, the old beliefs can return and gain influence ... How can > we > > be sure that the scriptures weren't altered in the telling even > > accidentally, that they weren't 'creatively improved' ("the Buddha > > couldn't really have meant that", "it's different now, so for the > > welfare of many we'll write this") in their being committed to > > writing? > > I know it is said, but can we really believe that the scriptures > are > > unadulterated? > > > > metta, > > Christine 19354 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Neo, So you have found some lines in a book that you like? Have you read all the lines in the book? What do you do with the ones you don't like? The other thing you could do is to actually try it and see what messengers you meet up with :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > > > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > > No. > > Once again, I refer to my favourite sutta. I find that there is > indeed a subtle difference between tranquility and (right) > concentration. Tranquility arises out of the Noble Eight-fold Path, > which includes Right Concentration. But tranquility does not precede > (right) concentration as claimed by James. > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.204 > Kimsuka Sutta > The Riddle Tree > > "Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with > strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, > experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know > and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from > the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the > commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, > sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, > delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, > would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift > pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, > would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander > of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the > central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their > accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back > by the route by which they had come. > > "I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The > message is this: The fortress stands for this body -- composed of > four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley > gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling > apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The > gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers > stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The > commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central > square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the > liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The > accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which > they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right > resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, > right mindfulness, right concentration." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html > > > The route by which the swift pair of messengers (Tranquility and > Insight) had come is the Noble Eight-fold Path. > > The Noble Eight-fold Path enables the arising of Tranquility and > Insight. And Tranquility and Insight are necessary for the > attainment of Unbinding. > > With Great Respect, > NEO Swee Boon 19355 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 1, 2003 11:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Herman, > So you have found some lines in a book that you like? Have you > read all the lines in the book? What do you do with the ones you > don't like? > The other thing you could do is to actually try it and see what > messengers you meet up with :-) I don't understand you. What are you implying? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19356 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Neo, Today Christine started a thread about the teachings, and what the place of personal experience is. (You might like to read that thread ). I am wondering whether experience plays a role in your contributions, or do you just quote the suttas that support your viewpoint? (and leave any suttas that don't support your viewpoint out). Maybe we could all just follow a link to the entire Tipitaka any time we want a reality check :-) All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > So you have found some lines in a book that you like? Have you > > read all the lines in the book? What do you do with the ones you > > don't like? > > The other thing you could do is to actually try it and see what > > messengers you meet up with :-) > > I don't understand you. What are you implying? > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19357 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:24am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Herman, > I am wondering whether experience plays a role in your > contributions, or do you just quote the suttas that support > your viewpoint? (and leave any suttas that don't support your > viewpoint out). Thank you for your clarification. As far as I know, I do not know of any sutta that contradicts my viewpoint. If you know of any, please share it. I do think that my experience do play a role: concentration practice leads to tranquility. That's why I said previously that concentration == tranquility. (Of course, you must understand what tranquility means in the Dhamma's context.) I would like to help Christine, but I find that I am inadequate. My advise to Christine would be to be equanimous with regards to the Dhamma (Tipitaka, Commentaries, etc.). She should not bother too much about whether it's really the Buddha's words or not. Instead, she should investigate by experience whether the words are true or not. That does not mean that all the words can be verified. But what subset that can be verified, she should go out and verify by experience and insight. Those that cannot be verified, she should put them aside but not reject them. She should not let her mind stray into doubts. Whether she doubts the Tipitaka or not, if the Tipitaka is true, it remains true, if it is false, it remains false. There is no point letting the mind stray into doubt. She should train her mind to know doubts as doubts. When doubts arise, she should know that doubts arise. When doubts do not arise, she should know that doubts do not arise. In this way, being mindful of doubts, doubts is lessened, not strengthened. Doubt is one of the defilements destroyed by the sotapanna. I hope this helps. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19358 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:40am Subject: To Christine Hi Christine, To really know for sure whether the Tipitaka is really the Buddha's words would be like the case of Malunkyaputta. We read in ADL Chapter 7, People in the Buddha's time too were speculating about things which do not lead to the goal of the teachings. They were wondering whether the world is finite or infinite, whether the world is eternal or not eternal, whether the Tathagata (the Buddha) exists drier his parinibbana or not. We read in the 'Lesser Discourse to Malunkya (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 63) that Malunkyaputta was displeased that the Buddha did not give explanations with regard to speculative views. He wanted to question the Buddha on these views and if the Buddha should not give him an explanation with regard to these views he would leave the order. He spoke to the Buddha about this matter and the Buddha asked him whether he had ever said to Malunkyaputta: Come you, Malurikyaputta, fare the Brahma-faring under me and I will explain to you either that the world is eternal or that the world is not eternal... or that the Tathagata is… is not after dying… both is and is not after dying... neither is nor is not after dying? We read that Malunkyaputta answered: 'No, revered Sir.' The Buddha also asked him whether he (Maunkyaputta) had said that he would 'fare the Brahma-faring' under the Lord if the Lord should give him an explanation with regard to these views and again Maunkyaputta answered: 'No, revered sir.' The Buddha then compared his situation with the case of a man who is pierced by a poisoned arrow and who will not draw out the arrow until he knows whether the man who pierced him is a noble, a brahman, a merchant or a worker; until he knows the name of the man and his clan; until he knows his outward appearance; until he knows about the bow, the bowstring, the material of the shaft, the kind of arrow. However, he will pass away before he knows all this. It is the same with the person who only wants to 'fare the Braham-faring' under the Lord if explanations with regard to speculative views are given to him. We read that the Buddha said: 'The living of the Brahma-faring, Malunkyaputta, could not be said to depend on the view that the world is eternal. Nor could the living of the Brahma-faring, Malunkyaputta, be said to depend on the view that the world is not eternal. Whether there is the view that the world is eternal or whether there is the view that the world is not eternal, there is birth, there is aging, there is dying, there are grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair, the destruction of which I lay down here and now.... Wherefore, Malunkyaputta, understand as not explained what has not been explained by me, and understand as explained what has been explained by me. And what, Malunkyaputta, has not been explained by me? That the world is eternal.. that the world is not eternal has not been explained by me.. And why, Malunkyaputta, has this not been explained by me? It is because it is not connected with the goal, it is not fundamental to the Brahma-faring, and does not conduce to turning away from, nor to dispassion, stopping, calming, super-knowledge, awakening, nor to nibbana. Therefore it has not been explained by me, Malunkyaputta. And what has been explained by me, Malunkyaputta? 'This is dukkha' has been explained by me, Malunkyaputta. 'This is the arising of dukkha' has been explained by me. 'This is the stopping of dukkha' has been explained by me. 'This is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha' has been explained by me. And why, Malunkyaputta, has this been explained by me? It is because it is connected with the goal, it is fundamental to the Brahma-faring, and conduces to turning away from, to dispassion, stopping, calming, super-knowledge, awakening and nibbana... ' Doubt cannot be cured by speculating about matters which do not lead to the goal; it can only be cured by being aware of the nama and rupa which present themselves now. Even when there is doubt it can be realized as only a type of nama arising because of conditions and not self. Thus the reality of the present moment will be known more clearly. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid7.html All of us in samsara are pierced by a poisoned arrow. If we will not draw out the arrow until we know for sure whether the Tipitaka are really the Buddha's words, we would be poisoned to death first. Speculating about the anthenticity of the Tipitaka does not lead to the goal of Unbinding, Christine. I hope this helps. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19359 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 1:48am Subject: Re: To Christine Hello Swee Boon, Thank you for your posts - it is very kind of you to take the time to try to help, and I appreciate it very much. I agree with you that metaphysical questions should be set aside, and shouldn't distract us from the main task at hand, the way to the end of suffering and final liberation. I don't look on the Buddha as a fortune-teller or a super-scientist. I looked on him as a being with attributes of limitless compassion and loving-kindness, with a complete understanding of the nature of other beings, and of causes and conditions. I saw him as a trail blazer whose teachings were a map that could be followed with confidence. If one begins to believe that the attributes are in some way incomplete then one can come to wonder about the accuracy of the map. This was particularly helpful: "She should train her mind to know doubts as doubts. When doubts arise, she should know that doubts arise. When doubts do not arise, she should know that doubts do not arise. In this way, being mindful of doubts, doubts is lessened, not strengthened. Doubt is one of the defilements destroyed by the sotapanna." I am sure I'll come to some resolution. Thanks again Swee Boon. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: 19360 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:20am Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, I would be interested to know an opinions and/or an attitude that the Buddha expressed yet could not be hold by an enlightend being. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I understand John Bulitt to be saying 'don't worry about having to > know whether the Buddha actually said everything in the Suttas, find > out for yourself if it is true'. Sounds reasonable. His assumption > seems to be that one will find that it all proves to be true. But > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an attitude, > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an enlightened > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of the > scriptures. > > Thanks for the link, Victor - I've only had a brief look so far, and > it does seem very worthwhile. > > metta, > Christine 19361 From: James Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 6:48am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > > > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > > No. > > But this is wrong concentration. Wrong concentration cannot produce > tranquility. > > In another example given by James (which I have no wish to continue > to respond to, because I do not really know how to explain to him my > position, and he flares up pretty easily) (James: LOL!! Hehehehe…that is the Zen Buddhist in me. Consider yourself lucky that you aren't in physical proximity with me; I might just hit you with a stick! LOL! (Zen Buddhist custom for insolent, lazy practitioners). NEO, if you want to find out the differences between tranquility and concentration get your nose out of the suttas and meditate already!! You aren't going to know by reading the suttas (and I don't understand why you want to know that way). You remind me of someone who, before they go swimming, must know the exact length, width, and height of the pool, how many gallons of water it contains and what is the Ph/Chlorine balance of that water. Just jump in already!! ;-) , he says a person who goes > on vacation (to Hawaii) has tranquility. This is NOT tranquility as > taught by the Buddha. A person who goes on vacation is attached to > sensual desires of the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Tranquility > as taught by the Buddha has the suppression of sensual desires. (James: NEO, it was a joke ;-) Lighten up. Another Zen tradition...nonsensical answers are given for questions that each person must answer for him or herself.) > > Anguttara Nikaya II.30 > Vijja-bhagiya Sutta > A Share in Clear Knowing > > "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? > Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). > > "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The > mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does > it serve? PASSION is abandoned. > > "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment > is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does > it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. > > "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, > discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of PASSION is > there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there > discernment-release." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html (James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. Hmmm...but I get the feeling that my posts give you neither tranquility or concentration! ;-) With Fiery Metta, James) > > With Great Respect, > NEO Swee Boon 19362 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight Hi James :-) See below op 31-01-2003 21:39 schreef James op buddhatrue@y...: > > I cannot believe my eyes. Are you actually stating that one doesn't > need to meditate to know present realities...all one needs is panna? N: You say the word: panna. But, it is a development for a long, long time. J: And where exactly do you think panna (wisdom) comes from if it isn't > from meditation? N: from insight meditation. This should be done in daily life, if it is not daily life we shall not know our true accumulations. J: Do you realize that this position is in direct > contradiction to everything the Buddha taught? N: No. See useful posts, we had so many discussions, many texts quoted. J: Does the Abhidhamma support this position? N: Yes. The Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma. The entire Tipitaka. And the commentaries. As I wrote to Frank, I do not conclude this lightheartedly. I gave this matter much thought, and I mean this. J: Where did you come up with this idea? N: From study, listening to the true Dhamma, considering again and again what I heard, verifying it in my daily life. J: It is no wonder that you have a hard time explaining this position to > others because there is absolutely no justification/foundation for it. N: Foundation yes, see above. Explaining is of course difficult, it depends on the listener. Is he openminded and ready for it? You see, that is the question. J: Also, who are the 'we' that you refer to. I'm starting to get the > creeps. Have I stumbled into some kind of weird Abhidhamma cult and > you are its leader? I'm sorry, but memorizing a bunch of Pali terms > isn't going to bring anyone panna. N: Hey James, what are you saying now? I cannot take this seriously. I wish you would always write to others as you do to the starkids. Then you are just, to say it in conventional terms, your natural self, sympathetic, kind, more relaxed. J: The eightfold path is the path to > panna...and the eightfold path includes meditation. Anyone who denies > that is really out of touch with reality. N:Right concentration is part of the eightfold Path, but it has to be accompanied by right understanding in order to be concentration of the eightfold Path. Just meditation without right understanding will not get you anywhere. We have to be very, very sure: What is exactly the subject of meditation and what does it bring. Detachment? Is there a way to know? I think not without panna. I will not deny that you can help other people who are in trouble with your meditation techniques, as I understood you were doing, James. But above I am speaking in the context of the eightfold Path. Insight knowledge of the three characteristics of all conditioned realities has to be developed in order to reach the goal. Can you not accept that in the Buddha's time and also now people have different temperaments, different inclinations different interests? As I recently wrote: on this list we all respect each other and feel that we can learn from each other, even though we may not agree. Let us keep it that way. I respect your views on Abhidhamma and Pali, and I hope you respect my views. I like this dialogue with you, James, except a few sentences, see above. I am taken up with writing and translating very much, and I hope you and others do not mind if I do not always answer posts or delay in answering. I have to limit my posts somewhat, I notice. Best wishes, from Nina. 19363 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Swee Boon and all, Thank you, Swee Boon of all the texts you have given. For those who like to compare different texts I shall quote one of my old posts on calm and insight: When in Bgk I attended the Committee meeting of the Foundation, in the library, where all texts were pulled out and studied. We compared this sutta with the "Coupling of powers", yuganaddha dhamma with the texts in the Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga), Ch XI, Treatise on Coupling, p. 291 and following, and its commentary (in Thai, p. 495, 463). Here it was explained, calm and insight are accompanying lokuttara citta. This is clear. It shows again how careful we have to be in discriminating texts. We have to find out: is samadhi here with lokiya citta or lokuttara citta. Co states that the citta has nirodha as object (gocara), that is nibbana. Then samatha and vipassana are coupled, the one does not exceed the other, because of voidness. Nina op 01-02-2003 17:39 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > > I think this is a very interesting topic. To my understanding, there > is a difference between the insights before the path and the path > (higher wisdom) itself. Insights before the path can be developed > without concentration. But to attain the path (higher wisdom), > concentration is necessary. 19364 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 2 Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 2 There are six groups, kalåpas, of rúpa originating from citta: 1. The pure octad, suddhatthaka [5] kalåpa, a group of eight rúpas consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas). These rúpas originate from citta, but they do not cause movement such as it occurs in the assuming of different postures, and they do not condition the conveyance of a meaning. They condition for example breathing. 2. The nonad of bodily intimation, kåya-viññatti, a group of nine rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and bodily intimation. These rúpas originate from the citta that wishes to convey a meaning while making this known through the body. 3.The decad of speech intimation, vací-viññatti, a group of ten rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas), speech intimation (vacíviññatti) and sound (sadda rúpa). These rúpas originate from citta when one normally speaks and in that case the rúpa of speech intimation is the condition for the arising of speech sound. The ³Visuddhimagga² explains in the ³Description of the Aggregates² (XIV, 62): ³Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung-to-matter [6]. Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness-originated earth element (pathaví dhåtu). But it is called Œverbal intimation¹ because it is the cause of the intimating of intention by means of the voice in speech, and because it is itself intimatable through speech, in other words, through that voice in speech.² Thus, when citta produces sound, this arises in a group of ten rúpas which also include the rúpa of speech intimation. This group of rúpas originates from citta which intends to utter sound that is ordinary speech in daily life. If someone utters speech with difficulty or without clarity, this is because the great Elements (the four principle rúpas) that constitute the soundbase are produced by temperature and by nutrition which are unsuitable; in that case they are not the right conditions for uttering sound in a natural way and with ease, sound that is clear. 4. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. This group of rúpas originate from the citta which conditions the assuming of different postures and the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a specific meaning. 5. The dodecad of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, and lightness, a group of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability, and bodily intimation. This group of rúpas originates from citta which wants to convey a meaning by way of bodily motion that is special, capable of expressing that meaning. 6. The tridecad of speech intimation, vacíviññatti, sound and lightness, a group of thirteen rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, sound and speech intimation. This group of rúpas originates from the citta which intends to cause the arising of a specific sound which is dependent on the vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability. That sound can arise on the sound-base when one intends to produce a special sound, such as in the case of singing or speaking. Footnotes 5. Suddha means pure. 6. Clung-to-matter is in Pali upådiùùa rúpa, rúpa that is grasped at, produced by kamma. It is in this case the vocal apparatus. 19365 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 21 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 21 We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (Miscellaneous Sayings) about the defilements which can arise in the process of developing the perfections. When one is developing the perfection of patience the defilement can arise of ³discriminating thoughts of oneself and others.² For some people patience is limited, they have patience only with regard to some people and only sometimes. They compare another person with themselves and this is a condition for impatience. When sometimes more patience arises and at other times impatience, we should know that the defilement of discriminating thoughts of oneself and others hinders the development of patience. We read in the same section of the Commentary that one can be misled by the defilement of craving and that this hinders the development of all the perfections. In the Ovåda-påtimokkha the Buddha exhorted the monks to have patience. There are two kinds of Påtimokkha: the Ovåda-patimokkha and the Ånå-påtimokkha [24]. The Ovåda-påtimokkha, the exhortation to the Påttimokkha, is an important principle of teaching or instruction. The Ånå-patimokkha are the rules of the Vinaya which are an important foundation to be applied by the monks in their conduct. In the Ovåda-påtimokkha the Buddha taught the significance of the perfection of patience in three stanzas and in addition two more verses. We read in the ³Sublime Story² (Mahåpadåna Sutta, Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. XIV): Stanza 1: khantí paramam tapo titikkhå [25]: forbearing patience is the highest ascetism. nibbånam paramam vadanti Buddhå: nibbåna is supreme, the Buddhas say. na hi pabbajito parúpaghåti: he, verily, is not a recluse who harms another. samano hoti param vihethayanto : nor is he an ascetic who oppresses others. Stanza 2: sabba-påpasså akaranam: not performing evil kusalassa upasampadå: accomplishing what is wholesome, doing all kinds of kusala. sacitta-pariyodapanam: purification of one¹s citta. etam Buddhånasåsanam: this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Stanza 3: anupavådo anupaghåto: not insulting, not harming. ptìimokkhe samvaro: restraint according to the påtimokkha mattaññutå ca bhattasmim: knowing moderation in food. pantañca sayan¹ åsanam : a secluded dwelling adhicitte ca åyogo: endeavour as to higher consciousness (development of calm of citta) etam Buddhånasåsanam: this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Footnotes: 24. Påtimokkha means obligation. Ovåda means admonition or exhortation. Ånå means command. 25. Titikkhå means endurance. 19366 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 41, , contemplation and insight, careful noticing Dear Kom, Thank you very much, as always very useful what you consider and write about. op 31-01-2003 21:04 schreef Kom Tukovinit op kom@a...: when people asked the Buddha to explain to them the path (or the > practice) in brief, and he said that the path leads to comprehension, > detachment, enlightenment, and nibbana. We may not be able to find out for > ourselves if the path that we are on leads to enlightenment or nibbana or > not, but we can know, little by little, if we begin to understand more about > nama and rupa, and if this leads to more attachment. 19367 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Nina, > The Co explains that the Way is the first stage of enlightenment. > As to the second factor, the monk is already used to developing > insight and then samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is > aware and considers the sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the > different stages of jhana he enters and emerges from. As to the > fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. > He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. I am particularly unsure as to what is meant by the fourth factor. I think this is the pure insight vehicle whereby samatha is automatically issued when insight is completed. Would you please elaborate on it? > Then, when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these > passages in their right perspective. No more doubts whether all > of us should develop jhana. Does that mean jhana is a requisite for Sotapanna Enlightenment? I have read about jhana concentration, access concentration and momentary concentration. I think Sotapanna Enlightenment (First Path) requires merely momentary concentration. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19368 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 8:33am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi James, > (James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a > difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to > erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. I don't see how concentration is equivalent to insight. I think concentration leads to tranquility and mindfulness leads to insight. If concentration alone leads to insight, other sects that practices concentration would have beaten the Buddha in the race to nibbana. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19369 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, Bhante - How are you? :-) In a message dated 2/2/03 1:01:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, sanz@n... writes: > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot > and kill somebody, do I find concentration. No. Metta. Ven. Yanatharo =================================== In the foregoing, you meant " I go to war, they give me a rifle, I concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find .", right? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19370 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi again, Bhante - In a message dated 2/2/03 1:07:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, sanz@n... writes: > Correction, Do I find tranquility. No. Venerable Yanatharo > > ========================= Whoops! Sorry, I should have waited to read this! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19371 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/2/03 2:04:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Once again, I refer to my favourite sutta. I find that there is > indeed a subtle difference between tranquility and (right) > concentration. Tranquility arises out of the Noble Eight-fold Path, > which includes Right Concentration. But tranquility does not precede > (right) concentration as claimed by James. > ========================== Right concentration and tranquillity are mutually supportive. From your own experience, when the mind is upset, not tranquil, can it concentrate well? Conversely, when the mind is tranquil, but also not overcome by sloth and torpor, is it not easier to concentrate? Also, the word 'samatha' means 'calm', not concentration. They are realted but different. Samatha meditation, the cultivation of calm, has (right) concentration as its central tool. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19372 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi, James - In a message dated 2/2/03 9:49:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a > difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to > erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. Hmmm...but I > get the feeling that my posts give you neither tranquility or > concentration! ;-) ========================== I think you may be making a terminological error here. When you speak of "concentration," I think that at least some of the time what you actually mean is "mindfulness". Concentration -> tranquillity (and temproary suppression of defilements) Mindfulness (with supporting factors) -> insight (and eventual erradication of ignorance) Of course, mindfulness supports concentration, and the tranquillity arising from concentration supports both mindfulness and concentration. All the factors are interrelated. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19373 From: James Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > I think you may be making a terminological error here. When you speak > of "concentration," I think that at least some of the time what you actually > mean is "mindfulness". > > Concentration -> tranquillity (and temproary suppression of > defilements) > > Mindfulness (with supporting factors) -> insight (and eventual > erradication of ignorance) > > Of course, mindfulness supports concentration, and the tranquillity > arising from concentration supports both mindfulness and concentration. All > the factors are interrelated. > > With metta, > Howard Hi Howard, Yes, the terminology I am using is to meet modern standards, not what the Buddha taught based on his standards. Let's face facts, in this day and age of television, radio, newspapers, entertainments, processed foods with stimulants and preservatives, the last thing anyone needs to worry about is having too much concentration! I teach young people so I know! What people need to worry about is having enough concentration. I emphasize concentration because it is what we all need that we lack so much. In the Buddha's time, ascetics would focus their mind on a single object or word for days at a time…now, is that likely to happen today? When the Buddha spoke against concentration he was speaking against a type of concentration that no one even comes close to today! I don't even know many monks who can concentrate for a significant length of time so householders, with their daily distractions, should have even less to worry about. Put simply, the true path is tranquility combined with concentration = attention (mindfulness) = insight. However, what most people practice today is tranquility combined with weak attention = superficial insight. What most people are missing is the power of concentration. The Buddha wanted to de-emphasize the role of concentration; today we need to re-emphasize it. Metta, James 19374 From: James Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi James, > > > (James: Well, see, you have your answer in this sutta. There is a > > difference between tranquility and concentration. One is to > > erradicate passion and one is to erradicate ignorance. > > I don't see how concentration is equivalent to insight. I think > concentration leads to tranquility and mindfulness leads to insight. > > If concentration alone leads to insight, other sects that practices > concentration would have beaten the Buddha in the race to nibbana. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon Hi NEO, Wow, you are brave to address me again...even though I may engulf you in flames! :-). Actually, I do agree with you. I explained in my recent post to Howard. I am sorry that you feel offended by my posts, and I am sorry to Nina and Jon if they feel the same way, but being very blunt is my personality and accumulations (those Ugly Americans! hehehe...). It is nothing personal and I highly respect everyone on this list because they do what so few do: THINK! Metta, James 19375 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 0:09pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Victor, I'm sincerely happy for your confidence Victor, may it grow and strengthen - For the moment, I'll just stick with having awareness of the presence of doubt as Swee Boon suggests. It is within myself that the matter will be resolved (or not). Making the finer details a subject for discussion won't help at all, at least that has been my past experience of such things. Those who will engage at all in the discussion will merely take such positions as their own needs dictate. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > I would be interested to know an opinions and/or an attitude that > the Buddha expressed yet could not be hold by an enlightend being. > > Regards, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth > " wrote: > > Hi Victor, > > > > I understand John Bulitt to be saying 'don't worry about having to > > know whether the Buddha actually said everything in the Suttas, > find > > out for yourself if it is true'. Sounds reasonable. His > assumption > > seems to be that one will find that it all proves to be true. > But > > what does one do when the Buddha expresses an opinion, an > attitude, > > that one believes to be an opinion, an attitude, that an > enlightened > > being could not hold? For me, it tends to undermine the rest of > the > > scriptures. > > > > Thanks for the link, Victor - I've only had a brief look so far, > and > > it does seem very worthwhile. > > > > metta, > > Christine 19376 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 1:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Friend. You are correct there. That is why I said in my original email that in Buddhism that could be right. But in normal life the meaning of the two words are different. I agreed with you that during concentration and meditation I always find tranquility. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] Enviado el: Domingo, Febrero 02, 2003 05:22 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Dear Venerable Yanatharo, > Dear Neo, Example. I go to war, they give me a rifle, I > concentrate to shoot and kill somebody, do I find tranquility? > No. But this is wrong concentration. Wrong concentration cannot produce tranquility. In another example given by James (which I have no wish to continue to respond to, because I do not really know how to explain to him my position, and he flares up pretty easily), he says a person who goes on vacation (to Hawaii) has tranquility. This is NOT tranquility as taught by the Buddha. A person who goes on vacation is attached to sensual desires of the eye, ear, nose, tongue and body. Tranquility as taught by the Buddha has the suppression of sensual desires. Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta A Share in Clear Knowing "These two qualities have a share in clear knowing. Which two? Tranquillity (samatha) & insight (vipassana). "When tranquillity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? PASSION is abandoned. "When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Discernment is developed. And when discernment is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned. "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of PASSION is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html With Great Respect, NEO Swee Boon 19377 From: Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 2:18pm Subject: Way 45, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p.57 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html He who knows (that by the diffusion of this process of oscillation born of mental activity take place going, standing, sitting and lying down) pursues the line of thinking (called investigation) in the following manner: "A living being goes," "A living being stands," (according to the false belief of those unacquainted with the reality of the matter or according to conventional speech), but there is no living being going or standing. This talk of a living being going or standing is similar to speech in the following way: "A cart goes." "A cart stands." In fact there is no going cart and no standing cart. When with bulls (tied to a cart) a skilled driver is driving, one conventionally speaking says: "A cart goes" or "A cart stands." In the sense of a thing not able to go of itself, the body is like the cart. Mind-born oscillation are like the bulls. Mind is like the driver. When the thought, "I go," or the thought "I stand," arises, the process of oscillation producing expression comes to existence. By the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity, going and the other modes of deportment take place, and then there are these forms of conventional speech: "A living being goes," "A living being stands," "I go," "I stand." Therefore the commentator said: Just as a ship goes on by winds impelled, Just as a shaft goes by the bowstring's force, So goes this body in its forward course Full driven by the vibrant thrust of air. As to the puppet's back the dodge-thread's tied So to the body-doll the mind is joined And pulled by that the body moves, stands, sits. Where is the living being that can stand, Or walk, by force of its own inner strength, Without conditions that give it support? Accordingly this yogi, who considers by way of causes and conditions, the states of going, standing and so forth, knows well that he is going, when he is in the state of going, that he is standing when he stands, that he is sitting when he sits, and that he is lying down when he lies down, as it is told in the passage in the discourse beginning with the words: "When he is going, a bhikkhu understands: 'I am going.'" 19378 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 2:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 21 Dear All, > -----Original Message----- > From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] > Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 7:30 AM I was curious about the secluded dwelling part (as being relevant to the recent living in seclusion thread) in Nina's translation, so I looked up the commentaries on this section, and here's the tidbits interesting to me: > Stanza 2: > sabba-påpasså akaranam: not performing evil This means all sorts of akusala. [We may think of performing evil means doing something to harm other only, but according to the commentaries, this is not so]. > kusalassa upasampadå: accomplishing what is > wholesome, doing all kinds of > kusala. This means all levels (bhumi) of kusala, from Kamavacara (mundane), rupavacara (jhana with form), arupavacara (jhana without form), and lokuttara (supramundane). > sacitta-pariyodapanam: purification of one¹s citta. This purification is accomplished when one becomes an arahat. [We can see that one is not yet purified even with jhana.] > mattaññutå ca bhattasmim: knowing moderation in food. > pantañca sayan¹ åsanam : a secluded dwelling Although only 2 types of sustenance (food and dwelling) are mentioned here, all 4 are meant (including clothes and medicine). Thank you, Nina. kom 19379 From: Andrew Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 3:30pm Subject: Re: To Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Swee Boon, > > This was particularly helpful: "She should > train her mind to know doubts as doubts. When doubts arise, she > should know that doubts arise. When doubts do not arise, she should > know that doubts do not arise. In this way, being mindful of doubts, > doubts is lessened, not strengthened. Doubt is one of the > defilements destroyed by the sotapanna." > Hi Christine Sorry to be "implicated" in your doubts! My last post was perhaps not very useful - a deficiency well remedied by Swee Boon. As you know, I too come from a Christian background and had a feeling I wasn't being honest with myself. When I have doubts about the Dhamma, I like to try to be brutally honest. Do I know what the Buddha really taught? Honest answer: no. Am I certain that the Tipitika hasn't been "adulterated"? Honest answer: no. If I don't know these things, I feel it does me no good to pretend that I do. I think this is what Swee Boon means by "see doubts as doubts". It is just pure honesty and it no longer disturbs me. Neither am I turned away from the Dhamma by the fact that I don't understand it all (or even by the possibility that some of the Tipitika is wrong view). When western scientists talk about "infinite universes" and so on, I don't have a clue what that really means, but I can't and don't dismiss it out of hand. I am a blind man tugging at the elephant's tail. What I do know is what I can experience in this (slightly over) six-foot body of mine. There are people on this list who tell me I'll eventually come across "tusks". I am interested to hear about such things but - in all honesty - I won't know until I get to experience it myself. As a result, I don't become attached to "tusks" or get upset when people suggest they don't exist. Welcome to samsara! Another old Japanese saying: "even hell is a dwelling place". If that's all you've got, that's all you've got! metta Andrew 19380 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hi Victor, > Those who will engage at all in the > discussion will merely take such positions as their own needs > dictate. > > metta, > Christine > What you say is of course true, but which aspects of a person's life are *not* governed by the same personal dictates? Is not each and every post a mirroring of a thousand known and unknown intentions? Likewise each and every act? Having censored a post to a point where you feel it conforms to certain requirements you feel should apply to it does not make it any less a product of your own needs. Be well Herman 19381 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Hi all Hello all, ` just a short message to say I'm not really posting a message at this stage. First, I have to catch up on a backlog of dsg emails -- brought about by my attending to other (lesser), commitments and computer problems. The quality of recent discussions has been superb even by dsg standards; little wonder that lurkers and semi-lurkers like me are happy just to read them. For various reasons, taking part doesn't come easily but I must show the flag occasionally, if only out of courtesy and appreciation. Mike, it's great to see you back. I should learn from your first message to NEO Swee Boon -- one word! I can do that! Kind regards Ken H 19382 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 1:53am Subject: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Hi James & All, James to NEO: “Wow, you are brave to address me again...even though I may engulf you in flames! :-).” ..... I think we all expect this by now.......rather like asking Mr Wolf what time it is and fully expecting it to be dinner-time;-) Herman just asked: “Is not each and every post a mirroring of a thousand known and unknown intentions?” I think this is a very good question and it reminded me of the Ambalattika Rahulovada Sutta. As we know, the Buddha gave Rahula the most precious legacy - the legacy of the truth contained in the Dhamma and this sutta was taught to him when he was 7 yrs old soon after he was ordained. He uses appropriate and imaginative similes such as that of the king’s elephant to show the harm of telling lies and then asks: “What do you think, Rahula; for what purpose is a mirror?” Rahula answers that it is ‘For the purpose of reflecting, Lord”. ( note: ‘Paccavekkhanattho; comy: for the purpose of looking at, for seeing any blemishes in the face.’). The Buddha replies: “Similarly, Rahula, having reflected, having reflected should bodily action be done; having reflected, having reflected should verbal action be done; having reflected, having reflected, should mental action be done.” The Buddha continues to stress that Rahula should reflect whether these various actions are skilful or unskilful, i.e whether they lead to one’s own harm, the harm of others or to both. Unskilful action, we read, ‘entails suffering’ and is ‘productive of pain’, whereas the skilful action ‘entaisl pleasure’ and is ‘productive of happiness’. Finally in the sutta, we read: “For whosoever, Rahula, in the distant past - Samanas or Brahmanas - purified their bodily, verbal and mental actions, - they all did so in exactly the same way - by constantly reflecting. Further, whosoever, Rahula, in the distant future - Samanas or Brahmanas - shall purify their bodily, verbal and mental actions, - they too will all do so in exactly the same way - by constantly reflecting. And further, whosoever, Rahula, at the present time - Samanas or Brahmanas - purify their bodily, verbal and mental actions - they all do so in exactly the same way - by constantly reflecting. “Accordingly, Rahula, thus must you train yourselves: ‘By constantly reflecting shall we purify our bodily actions; by constantly reflecting shall we purify our verbal actions; by constantly reflecting shall we puify our mental actions”. ***** Elsewhere we read that Rahula was praised as one who was ‘foremost among those keen to learn, eager in following the Training’(sikkha-kaama). At the end of this discourse he was ‘delighted’ and ‘rejoiced’. Holding up the mirror, reflecting wisely, meditating in action and practising what we preach to the young may not be so easy. Sometimes we don’t ‘rejoice’ like Rahula and we forget the purpose of the mirror;-( James:“but being very blunt is my personality and accumulations” None of us are dealt an easy hand . Understanding kilesa (defilements) and accumulations for what they are and developing detachment and wise consideration takes tremendous patience, sincerity and courage. I think we’re all here on DSG to help and support each other in this regard. Let me sign off by quoting some helpful comments that a good friend has written here to other ‘Young and Young at Heart’ members which may be a helpful mirror for us all. (In order of appearance on DSG to the Star Kids over the last 3 mths) ***** “Buddhism will make you happy because it helps you to see things as they really are. Then there is no need for fear, or sadness, or being mean to other people.” “I believe, with all my heart, in the Buddha, his teachings, and the need to have and support Buddhist friends and monks. These three things are called ‘the Triple Gem’, and to me they are worth more than any gems like diamonds, rubies, or emeralds.” “He reminds me what I already know, but I sometimes can’t see it or won’t see it because I can be too busy working at being ‘xxxxx’” “The Buddha also taught that people view themselves very much like a ‘toy’ or something that they ‘own’. But in the case of ourselves, we didn’t get to choose if we wanted our self or not; like Christmas, we were just born with this ‘gift’ of ourselves that we had no choice about.” “Showing the highest respect to adults and teachers is very important in life. It is the guidance and love of adults that will guarantee you a good future.” “Life is kinda like a test.......And when we get done with the test, when we die, it isn’t important how many answers we got right and how many we got wrong, the important thing is how hard we tried. Doing our absolute best will get us all a GOLD STAR!” “Some things can’t be completely changed. What we both need to do is to apologize freely and frequently.” “Try to understand where other people are coming from......Each star in the universe shines in a different way.” “Try to get along this Christmas and shoot for all year long.” “Buddhism is about kindness, generosity, honesty, goodness, truth, compassion; and Buddhism is also about wisdom, tranquillity, and ultimate truth........It is about how we can live the best way possible without hurting each other and ourselves.” “It is a path that is taken step by step.” “I am a Buddhist 24 Hrs a day, everyday of the week.....If I stopped caring about the happiness of others, I would stop caring about my own happiness.” “Puppies have to be shown over and over and over again how to act because they forget.” “Buddhists believe there are two types of things in the world: Mind and Matter, called Nama and Rupa in Pali. And just as matter never disappears, it just changes, mind also never disappears, and it just changes.” “The Buddha taught us all how to build a kind of happiness that comes from inside and isn’t dependent on doing things or getting things.” “You may also think that adults are really different from little kids, but that is not always true either. Sometimes adults can be the most childish of them all. People are people, and they should all be treated equally...in priase and chastisement.” “Patience is a virtue;-)” ***** I’ve appreciated looking through the posts to the Young and reflecting on these gems;-) Thanks James and metta, Sarah ===== 19383 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: Regarding the Teachings Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: Hi Herman, I think my difficulty is that I have tended to treat the buddhist scriptures in the same way I was taught to regard the Holy Bible - as sacred writings of divine origin and authority, which under no circumstances was to be questioned. And sometimes, it seems to me, that buddhists regard the Canon in the same way. So when one comes across something that causes a "But that I can't believe" reaction, it prompts a re-assessment of a previous comfortable certainty regarding the infallibility of the Teachings. The dilemma for me is that either the teachings are the unadulterated word of the buddha, in which case I have some problems - or - the teachings have changed over time with accretions and alterations, are not exactly what the Buddha taught. In which case, I have a different set of problems. I think my raft has some holes, but I'm bailing fast. :-) metta, Christine KKT: So the problem with you is: You want << certainty >>, dont' you? :-)) You left the Church because it fails to give you this << certainty >> So you will leave Buddhism if it fails to give you this same << certainty >>, will you not? (just joking :-)) But this << certainty >> could only come from within, Christine :-)) If you look for this certainty from words (Tipitaka or whatever) then you could not avoid such << crisis >> of doubt :-)) But do not fear doubt because doubt is << healthy >> :-)) I like the Christian expression << THE DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL >> Best wishes, KKT 19384 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] maharahulovada sutta, Co, no 2. Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Sarah, thank you, I was hoping you would add the BB notes. > In the Pali Proper Names I read about Rahula. He was so eager to be > taught, > that in the morning he took a handful of sand and said, today as > many words of counsel from my teachers as there are here grains of > sand.> ..... Yes. As we know, such eagerness has to be accumulated over many lifetimes. In Nyanaponika’s introduction, he writes :The venerable Rahula was always amenable to advice, and to this virtue of his, practised also in former lives, refer two Jatakas: No 16:Tipa attha-miga-Jataka, and No 319: Tittira Jataka”, ..... > I also read, love > for Devadatta, Angulimala and Dhanapala as he did for Rahula.> ..... This is love as metta! ..... Thankyou for all your additional commentary notes. Apparently, Rahula was 18 yrs when he was given this discourse and 21yrs when he was given the Cula-Rahulovada sutta and afterwards attained arahantship. Nyanaponika writes that ‘when the Buddha preached the “Discourse on the heirs of the Dhamma (Dhamma-daayaada Sutta, MN3), in which he distinguished between the heirs to worldliness and the heirs to truth, this may well have evoked in Him the memories of little Rahula’s request for his heritage.” Just a couple more brief comments on small ‘snips’ from your translation: ..... N:> Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Rahula, M, sutta 62., no 2. > We read further on in the Commentary: ruupa.m, > whatever are ruupas (material phenomena), this is explained in detail in > the > Visuddhimagga, khandha niddesa. As to the words, n'eta.m mama, this is > not > myself, this has been explained in the "Greater Discourse on the > Elephant's > Footprint" (M 28). ..... Rupas and all other phenomena to be seen as they really are as we read about in these suttas. B.Mahinda (translator of Wheel version) gives a footnote on the meaning of dhatus (elements) which may be of particular interest to those from a philosophy background: “The four great essentials to which the Buddha first directs the attention of Rahula are: pathavi, apo, tejo and vayo, known as “dhatus” in Pali. “Dhatu” is defined as “that which bears its own intrinsic nature;” its most appropriate English equivalent being “element”. But it must not be hastily assumed from this that we are here dealing with the four “elements” of the ancient Greek philosophers, namely: earth, water, fire, and air; since, in the Abhidhamma sense, the four “dhatus” imply extension or solidity (pathavi), cohesion (apo), heat (tejo), and motion or vibration (vayo).” . ..... N: > Rahula > was clever in the methods of teaching. When the Buddha said, "one should > not > act like this", he realized even a hundred or a thousand methods, of > "one > should act like this, one should not act like that". And even so, when > the > Buddha said, "one should act like this", he considered in that way > according > to many methods.> ..... We get a good indication of how little was needed to be heard for the key disciples to fully understand the Teachings. This is also how Sariputta could understand all the intricate details of the Abhidhamma so swiftly too, I believe. In appreciation, With Metta, Sarah p.s I’m finding the Dhamma Issues series on ‘Intimation’ very interesting and clearly presented, though I understand how others may prefer to put it off for a rainy day;-). ================================== 19385 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 3:32am Subject: Right Concentration Hi All, From what I have read from the Suttas from ATI, it has always given me the impression that Right Concentration means purely the attainment of the jhanas. Nevertheless, "deep down in my heart", I know that this is wrong, but I could not justify it in concrete ways. The suggestion by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that the monks mentioned in the Susima Sutta had attained at least the first jhana does no help at all. Today is a public holiday and I spent the afternoon reading through the "Useful Posts" on this subject. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Gradual Sayings (II, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 7, Kinds of Recluses) Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? The unshaken recluse, the blue-lotus recluse, the white-lotus recluse, and the recluse who is exquisite among recluses. And how, monks, is one an unshaken recluse? Herein, monks, a monk is a pupil, one who has entered the way; he dwells aspiring for the unsurpassed rest of the toil... And how, monks, is a person a blue-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, by destroying the asavas, has reached the heart¹s release, the release by wisdom that is free from the asavas, and having realized it abides therein. Yet does he not abide experiencing with his own person the eight deliverances... And how, monks, is a person a white-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, by destroying the asavas...abides therein, and abides experiencing with his own person the eight deliverances... And how, monks, is a person a recluse exquisite among recluses? Herein a monk when invited enjoys a plentiful supply of robes... Now monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse exquisite among recluses, it is just of me (the Buddha) that he would rightly use the words... (Nina: The eight deliverances, vimokkha, see Buddhist dictionary (Nyanatiloka) includes both rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- - The above Sutta posted by Nina was very helpful. It shows that Arahantship can be attained without any (mundane) jhana attainment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for which I blame these five hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by insight (alone)." ("Emancipated in both ways" can be understood with reference to Anguttara Nikaya IX.45.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-045.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- - The above Sutta posted by Nina was also very helpful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi Sutta "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. Number 1: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. (RobertK: This is the mundane jhanas, the pleasant abiding here and now. They are right concentration but are only right concentration of the eightfold path when they are used as the basis for insight by those who take that path.) Number 2: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. (RobertK: This is a special type of mundane jhana that gives one certain powers; "knowledge and vision" here is not of the type that is part of the eightfold path.) Number 3: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. Number 4: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration." --------------------------------------------------------------------- - The above Sutta posted by RobertK was very useful. I have always ignored this Sutta because whenever I read Number 2, I always feel bewildered. Now I understand it as the development of abhinna powers approved by the Buddha. All four types of concentration are practiced by the Buddha. But Number 3 and 4 are the really useful types of concentration that will lead to Unbinding and they do not need any jhana attainments. I agree with RobertK when he says "They are right concentration but are only right concentration of the eightfold path when they are used as the basis for insight by those who take that path.". Indeed, even if the mundane jhana was attained but there is no insight as to the five aggregates present in that mundane jhana, what's the point? It cannot be right concentration if there is no insight into the five aggregates associated with that mundane jhana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - In response to the Susima Sutta, Nina said: The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Indeed, we should draw our own conclusion. My conclusion is that Susima intended to ask the Arahants if they had attained both rupa and arupa jhanas. Whenever I read the Buddha's teachings about the jhanas, he always start from the first jhana. I don't think that I had read any sutta where the Buddha teaches about jhana and he only talks about arupa jhanas without mentioning the rupa jhanas. There is every reason to believe that Susima intended to ask the Arahants if they had attained both rupa and arupa jhanas. He could be just as perplexed as me as to whether jhana and abhinna attainments are necessary for Unbinding. Afterall, he listened to the same Dhamma discourses delivered by the Buddha as I am reading now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html (RobertK explained the meaning of jhana in the context of this Sutta.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 Indeed, the Buddha could not have meant merely the attainment of mundane jhana when he said "Practice jhana". More likely than not, he was telling them to practice concentration type Number 4 that leads to Unbinding. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks that samatha is a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one has to be highly skilful in jhana, and acquire the masteries (vassis): entering jhana whenever one wishes, changing the stages whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one wishes (see Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few people can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. XII, 8: It is important to take note of this warning. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - This "warning" was very useful. There are some other posts by Jonothan Abbott which were useful as well. Example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3539 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7821 I think this Dhamma Study Group is very blessed to have such well- learned masters of the Dhamma in Nina, RobertK and Jonothan Abbott. I appreciate all of your explanations. On a personal note, I feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu, by emphasizing on the jhanas in his translation and notes, is making the realization of Magga very unreachable for the common worldling. In contrast, I felt full of hope when I read in ADL Chapter 24: --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Some people think that enlightenment could not occur in daily life, they believe that it is necessary to be in a solitary place in order to attain nibbåna. The development of vipassanå is the development of right understanding of all realities occurring in daily life. When paññå has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, enlightenment can occur in the middle of one's daily activities. As we have seen, the attainment of enlightenment is only a few moments of citta which arise and fall away within split seconds. --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19386 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intention, willing and no-control (was, Descriptive vs Prescriptive) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > To me, to "generate desire, endeavour, > >arouse persistence, uphold & > >exert one's intent for the sake of" > >something is quite conventional effort. > >The Buddha was very good with language, > >and, to me my reading is quite straightforward. > >------------------------------------------------- ... Jon: > To my knowledge, the Buddha *never* encouraged > akusala mind-states of any kind under any circumstances (btw, I have > yet to hear your own view on this point). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall ever having been queried on this issue, nor do I recall ever having indicated that I thought the Buddha might encourage harmful thoughts or actions. Of course, I do not. As far as "generating desire" for something worthwile is concerned, when reading this phrase, I immediately understood 'desire' to mean 'chanda' and not 'tanha'. Actually, the sense I had for "generate desire" was to "create the intention and determination for". -------------------------------------------------- Jon: Sorry if you felt you were being 'queried'. I thought it was an important point to be clear on. So we are agreed that the various expressions in the passage "generate desire, endeavour, arouse persistence, uphold & exert one's intent for the sake of" refer exclusively to kusala factors of one kind or another, and hence to kusala mind-moments only. Now this being so, the 'exertion to develop' must itself be a kusala mind-state. That is to say, it cannot be the intention to have kusala arise instead of a presently-arising akusala mind-state. Would you agree with this as a fair reading of the texts so far? ... --------------------------------------------------- Howard: To an extent I agree with you on this, Jon. I would sound the cautionary note, however, that we - each of us - should not be too certain that we are in possession of the correct translational dictionary for these terms of art (or even that the commentators always were), and, moreover, that sometimes, as Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- Just to clarify, and to expand a little in view of one or two other threads running at the moment, my frame of reference/point of departure here, as always, is to identify what the Buddha said about the topic under discussion, and how the Buddha's words should be understood having regard to the rest of the Tipitaka and the commentaries. There is no such thing as a 'translational dictionary' when it comes to the teachings -- the specific context is so very important. However, in my view, the best source of elucidation of the Buddha's words as we have them is the commentaries (so those who have access to the whole of the commentaries in a language they are comfortable with are fortunate indeed). Some members like to stress the importance of one's own experience. That's fair enough. And it is true that in the end the teachings are to be experienced each person for him- or her-self. But only a Bodhisatta is able to make any real progress entirely on his own. For the rest of us, 'own experience' will mean 'own particular wrong view'. What is needed I believe is the input of the teachings to help break the circle of ignorance and wrong view. This is where, by sharing what we have learnt from our study and practice of the teachings, we can all help each other. Jon 19387 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 4:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard Regarding your sutta quote (from http://www.buddhadust.org/sutta/dn/33_sangiti/DN33_Sangitisutta.htm#4.2): "Here friends a beggar generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy, and makes an effort - to prevent the arising of bad, unskillful states not yet present in the here and now, - to let go of bad, unskillful states that are present in the here and now, ... - to get skillful states not yet present in the here and now, ... - to retain, establish, rid of confusion, complete, develop, increase, and add to skillful states that are present in the here and now" you say: =============================== Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of mindfulness accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in this respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which one fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones... ************************************************** This passage is another description of the same 4 samma-padhaanas mentioned in the 2 passages in your earlier post which we have been discussing in another thread. We have agreed in that thread that what is being described by expressions such as 'generates intention', 'sets his thinking on', 'rouses energy', and 'makes an effort' in the 4 samma-padhaanas is in fact mind-states that are themselves kusala, not akusala. Furthermore, from the references in other 'samma-padhaana' passages to 'developing the factors of enlightenment' etc it would seem that that it must be kusala of the level of panna that directly experiences the true nature of reality. This interpretation is I think confirmed by the commentarial passage to the Samyutta Nikaya extract cited earlier. In short, the 4 samma-padhaana are references to path moments (mundane or supramundane). So in terms of your ultimate/penultimate classification given above, I would see this as an instance of 'ultimate abandoning arising as the fruit of wisdom'. I have not come across any classification in the teachings of 'penultimate abandoning arising as a result of mindfulness accompanied by intention and energy'. To my reading of the texts and commentaries on samma-padhaana, mindfulness/insight and the intention or effort for the same are really different aspects of the same moment of (mundane or supramundane) path consciousness. Nyanatiloka describes 'padhaana' as 'the 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path' (see extract below). Jon Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' padhána: 'effort.' The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome states. 19388 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Swee Boon Just a note on the last of the suttas in your post (I may come back on one or two other points later). According to the notes in the Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta (in NDB), the commentary states about the second case: "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to insight and then, based on insight, produces concentration (samadhi)." and the subcommentary explains: "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." So I take this passage of the sutta as referring to the person who attains enlightenment without having developed any particular level of samatha first. Jon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi All, ... But for the path (higher wisdom) to arise, besides insight, concentration is also necessary. This fact is made clear in: On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html In all four cases, concentration is neccessary. The first three cases are cases whereby the disciple EXPLICITLY practises tranquility. In particular, the second case makes it very clear that insight can be developed independently of tranquility (develops tranquility preceded by insight). But in the fourth case, there is no mention of the EXPLICIT practice of tranquility. Instead the disciple attends to purely insight alone. When insight becomes 'full-blown', this is the time the mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. This accounts for the disciple's tranquility (concentration). Thus the path is attained for the disciple in the fourth case. 19389 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) James Regarding the Susima Sutta, SN XII.70 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-070.html) you said in a message to Ray: <> I think it should be pointed out that the commentary to the sutta seems to support the position that the translator seeks to refute. According to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (CDB, p.785), the commentary states, regarding the phrase "liberated by wisdom" (panna-vimutta): "He shows: "Friend, we are without jhana, dry-insighters, liberated simply by wisdom"." and the sub-commentary states: "Liberated simply by wisdom: not both-ways-liberated." The note goes on to say: "The commentaries explain the 'panna-vimutta' [liberated by wisdom] arahant to be of five kinds: those who attain one or another of the four jhanas, and the "dry-insighter" (sukha-vipassaka) who lacks mundane jhana but still has the supramundane jhana inseparable from the noble path." [By way of explanation, when reading the above we need to bear in mind that persons who attain jhana first and then enlightenment may be either 'both-ways-liberated' or 'liberated by insight/wisdom alone', depending on whether the attainment of enlightenment was *with jhana as basis*. In other words, a person who attained jhana first and later attains enlightenment, but whose enlightenment is not *with jhana as basis*, is not 'both-ways-liberated', he is liberated by insight/wisdom alone.] Note the reference in the commentary to "supramundane jhana inseparable from the noble path". This of course is right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. As to how it gets to be developed, the answer is, as I understand it, in the same way that the panna factor gets to be developed, that is, by the development of satipatthana/vipassana (the mundane path). If vipassana is being developed, then all the necessary eightfold path factors are also being developed. My best reading of the teachings anyway. Jon 19390 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Chris (and Swee Boon) Thanks for posting these extracts from the commentary. They are very relevant to one or two current threads. In case the meaning is not self-evident for some, I have summarised the 2 sets of commentary notes: Note 211: Insight knowledge (that is, knowledge of the 3 characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta of dhammas) must be developed first. When and only when that insight knowledge has been fully developed, path knowledge (knowledge of nibbana) arises. Note 212: Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha). (Swee Boon, note 212 especially is relevant to a comment you made in a recent post that although samatha is not necessary for the development of insight, it is necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. ) Thanks again, Chris, for setting out this material. Jon --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: Hello James, Ray and All, You may be interested in reading part of the translation and notes by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Then the Venerable Susima rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:] "First Susima, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 211) "I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief." "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212) "Note 211 states: Pubbe kho Susima dhammatthitinanam, paccha nibbane nanam - Spk: Insight knowledge is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma," which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is "knowledge of Nibbana," which arises later. Spk-pt: The "stability of the Dhamma" is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammanam thitata tamsabhavata): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is "knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma." Note 212 states: Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk-pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..." 19391 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, > According to the notes in the Bhikkhu Bodhi of this sutta (in NDB), > the commentary states about the second case: > "This refers to one who by his natural bent first attains to > insight and then, based on insight, produces concentration > (samadhi)." > and the subcommentary explains: > "This is one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika)." > > So I take this passage of the sutta as referring to the person who > attains enlightenment without having developed any particular level > of samatha first. Thank you for pointing that out. But what's the difference between the second and the fourth case? An elaboration of the fourth case is found in: Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) Pansadhovaka Sutta * The Dirt-washer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19392 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ethical Basis [was: All in a days work] Hi Victor, You may be surprised to hear that I liked your post a lot and agreed with most your comments;-) --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Thank you for the reply. > > Searching all directions with my awareness, I find no one dearer > than myself. There is no one dearer than myself. There is no one > dearer than yourself. There is no one dearer than oneself. Whether > one is a worldling or not. ..... OK ..... > In the first part of the exclamation in Raja Sutta: > > Searching all directions > with one's awareness, > one finds no one dearer > than oneself. > > the Buddha stated a universal truth, a truth that is valid to anyone > and everyone. ..... OK ..... > > Based on this truth, the Buddha stated the ethical principle in the > second part of the exclamation: > > In the same way, others > are fiercely dear to themselves. > So one should not hurt others > if one loves oneself. > > This ethical principle, as I see it, is based on empathy, an > understanding that there is no one more dear to others than > themselves. ..... Agreed!! ..... > > I would like to bring to attention the discourse Piya Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html > > In this discourse, the Buddha said: > > "That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Those who > engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct > are not dear to themselves. Even though they may say, 'We are dear > to ourselves,' still they aren't dear to themselves. Why is <> >I think there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself > means the same as being attached to oneself. ..... I agree with your comment. I remember once before following the details on ‘piya’ in the Pali-English dict and following it in context. I believe that, like here, it’s often used in a general sense (like when we refer to someone as dear or write ‘Dear Victor’ in English perhaps. In Nina’s translations on the Perfections there were some quotes recently about those with virtues being held 'dear'. I don’t know if the same word was used but probably. In other contexts, the term clearly is associated with attachment, again as it often is in English: see Dhp Piya vagga 1,2,3,4,5 (209-213) eg212 “piyato jaayati soko piyato jaayati bhaya”m piyato vippamuttassa natthi soko, kuto bhaya”m? “From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear; For him who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence fear? ***** “Hence hold nothing dear > > In Piyajatika Sutta, the Buddha explained that sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear, come > springing from one who is dear. > > How are sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair born from one > who is dear, come springing from one who is dear? > > Through/by craving. > > There is room to consider whether someone being dear to one means > the same as one is attached to him or her. ..... I agree that it is by craving. I agree there is room to consider this question. The Dhp verses certainly suggest that they can be considered as the same. When I consider myself or others as dear, there is attachment for sure;-)What do you think? ..... We agreed about what Interpretation 1) says. I wish to clarify your comments on 2) on the Udana sutta: > This is mostly correct. However, the second interpretation has not > touched upon that 'holding oneself dear' and/or 'holding dear' > refers to wholesome states and in particular to metta, directed in > the first place to oneself. ..... I think you mention later that there is no attachment involved and you mention metta later. Surely there must be either wholesome or unwholesome states present at these times of ‘holding dear’. Please clarify. ..... > > I think the word "love" has different meanings in the English > language. I don't think that love in the sense of metta/loving- > kindness brings sorrow. Attachment to sensuality does bring sorrow. ..... agreed ..... > > of all. After all, when the'dear' one dies, it is in truth the > strong > > attachment to oneself, one's own feelings and one's own loss that > brings > > the sorrow, isn't it? > > It is craving that leads to sorrow. Craving for sensuality, craving > for becoming, craving for non-becoming. Craving for forms, craving > for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for > tangibles, craving for mind-objects. ..... Just so. What one takes as craving for the other and sorrow at the loss of the other is really craving for forms, sounds, odours etc just as you explain. In other words, craving associated with the 5 khandhas. ..... > I think it might be a good idea to distinguish what is meant by the > word "love" and what is meant by the word "attachment". If someone > is dear to me, does it mean I am attached to him or her? Again, > there is room to consider whether being dear to oneself means being > attached to oneself. ..... Lots of room;-) What do you think? If someone is dear to you, is there any attachment? How is it possible to be dear to oneself without attachment? (I agree that it’s possible in theory at least to think of oneself with alobha-- non-attachment, but I think such moments are pretty rare). > > Love as metta is a quality that will definitely benefit those around > us. > Attachment and clinging do not. .... Yes. In the commentary (I’ll just give one relevant snippets), it is clear that king Pasenadi is not happy when he hears Queen mallika’s words. “As far as I am concerned, it is fitting that I do not behold another dearer than the self. But this outcaste, being inferior from birth, (yet) who was installed by me in an exalted position, does not hold me, who am her lord, likewise dear. She says, face to face with me, that ‘The self alone is dearer’. How hard, truly, is this one, and, having lost his self-possession, reproved her, saying: “Surely for you the Three Jewels are dearer”. The queen said: “It is so as to secure for myself the benefits of heavenly bliss and the bliss of freedom that I fully hold dear the Three Jewels, your majesty; therefore, for me the self alone is dearer”. For what the queen implied was this: “And this whole world holds another dear solely out of self-interest - even in wishing for a son, it wishes (for same) thinking ‘This one will nourish me in my old age’, for a daughter thinking ‘She will propagate the clan for me’, for a wife thinking ‘She will wait upon me (hand and ) foot’, for other relatives, friends and kinsmen, too, by way of their various functions. Hence it is in percieving self-interest alone that this world holds another dear.” ..... I better stop before this becomes one of those ‘overwhelming’ posts. I’m always really happy to reflect on this Udana ‘Piya’ sutta (one of my two or three favourites for nearly 30yrs), so I thank you for this pleasant discussion. ..... > If you like, we can discuss Piya Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn03-004.html ..... Fine - happy to discuss this further if you’d like to add more and see if we can find some agreement;-) ..... Metta, Sarah ======= 19393 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi Jon, > Note 212: > Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the > concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha). > > (Swee Boon, note 212 especially is relevant to a comment you made > in a recent post that although samatha is not necessary for the > development of insight, it is necessary for the attainment of > enlightenment. ) Am I correct to say that, Jon? That samatha is not necessary for the development of insight, but it is necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19394 From: jonoabb Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Frank Thanks very much for this interesting and hearfelt support for samatha bhavana as a necessary aspect of vipassana bhavana. I wouldn't wish to discourage you or anyone from developing samatha, but I would like to suggest that having the jhanas as one's immediate goal should not be a reason for giving up on the idea of the development of satipatthana at this present moment. Even if one is of the view that some level of samatha is necessary for attainment of the first stage of enlightenment, does this preclude the possibility of satipatthana being developed at the present moment? To my mind, the answer is clearly 'no'. The whole point of the Satipatthana Sutta seems to be to explain how this aspect of the path can potentially be developed at some level at any moment, regardless of the circumstances, of the wholesomeness or otherwise of the mental state of the present moment, of the level of samatha attained to date, or of any other factor (except of course a proper intellectual understanding of the nature of mindfulness and of the dhammas that can be the object of mindfulness). This is not to say it's easy, far from it. But if 'a cigar is sometimes just a cigar' (Freud, via Howard), then equally I would say that 'mindfulness is always just mindfulness' (or, to use a more modern idiom, 'just do it' (Phil Night)). Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "fcckuan " < fcckuan@y...> wrote: > Hi Jon, > The next time I come across that reference to mindfulness not > being fully developed without right concentration I'll post. Don't > know it off hand. > The triple knowledge: > 1) knowledge of past lives > 2) knowledge of destination of beings at death > 3) knowledge of the destruction of the taints > > Proficiency in Jhana is necessary for the first two, you question > the 3rd one. The reason I believe it's necessary for the 3rd as well > is because it makes sense to me intellectually and intuitively that > one who has such a high level of samatha and concentration and can > directly view reality in such fine granularity to perceive the > subtle processes that identify with this mind body complex that we > take to be "I", and can even trace these "beings" through past lives > and future lives revolving in samsara, it makes sense to me that > these people with jhanic level of concentration can also stop their > own transmigration by nonclinging to these subtle processes that > make the illusion of self-identiy at the moment of physical death. > > One of the metta suttas gives the impression that through > cultivating metta alone one can achieve enlightenment. Similarly, I > think people can over extrapolate things reading suttas about what > level of concentration is necessary for enlightenment. Perhaps you > do need less than jhanic level of concentration to achieve full > liberation. I don't know for sure (yet), but in the meantime, I'm > going to shoot for the path that seems to give me the best odds for > success. In other words, I believe people who can see reality in > such clarity and detail via jhanic level concentration, even if it's > not absolutely necessary, have the best chance of disentangling > themselves from cyclic existence. > > The other reason to master jhanas: What if it turns out that the > canon and possible lack of arahants alive today does not give quite > enough clear instruction on how to get to full enlightenment? If > that is the case that we don't have an unbroken lineage of > enlightenend beings who can point the way to people who are ripe, > which I certainly believe is a pretty strong possibility, jhanic > proficiency seems like the best bet for using existing knowledge > base of dhamma and making the leap and working out the details to > carry it out all the way through on the own. > > -fk 19395 From: James Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 6:01am Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James & All, > > James to NEO: "Wow, you are brave to address me again...even though I may > engulf you > in flames! :-)." > ..... > I think we all expect this by now.......rather like asking Mr Wolf what > time it is and fully expecting it to be dinner-time;-) From "Wolf" Contrary to popular opinion, wolves are shy, submissive animals. There are many who still think that wolves are a problem in areas where people are around, but there are very few, if any, verified reports of healthy wolves ever seriously injuring humans in North America. ... Some of the reasons for the fear of wolves are obvious. Children's stories present the animal as a menace -- think of Little Red Riding Hood, or The Three Little Pigs -- and old sayings such as "he's a wolf in sheep's clothing" and "keeping the wolf from the door" added more negative impressions. Legends about werewolves haven't helped much, either! Possibly the worst damage came from the supposedly true stories of first-person experiences involving the writer's encounters with a circle of growling, slavering wolves slowly moving in for the kill. Native North Americans and Eskimos admired the wolf and tried to develop its hunting skills in themselves. Settlers, however, depleted the wolf's prey of bison, deer, elk, and moose, leaving the animal with livestock as its only prey. The ranchers' determination to end the destruction of their livestock, along with government cooperation, led to a campaign to eliminate the wolf. As late as 1965, bounty payments of $20 to $50 per animal were paid to anyone who killed a wolf by trapping, shooting from planes and snowmobiles, and hunting with dogs. Putting out poisoned animal carcasses had the unwanted side effect of killing other animals. Wolves are very intelligent and adaptable. With their well developed sense of smell, wolves can locate prey, other pack members, or enemies. This sense also tells them if other wolves have been in the territory, whether they were male or female, and how long ago they were there. A very social animal, the wolf depends on and cooperates with other pack members in defending the territory and obtaining food. Aggression is a part of the wolf hierarchy, as challenges are made to both the male and female Alpha animals. However, aggressive behavior in the pack occupies about 20% of wolf behavior, and seldom involves the combatants receiving wounds, or even any actual fighting. The usual aggressive interaction involves a lot of bumping, chasing, snapping, and vocalization. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8388/wolf.html Howling Metta, James 19396 From: Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/3/03 7:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Regarding your sutta quote (from > http://www.buddhadust.org/sutta/dn/33_sangiti/DN33_Sangitisutta.htm#4.2): > > "Here friends a beggar generates intention, sets his thinking on, > rouses energy, and makes an effort > - to prevent the arising of bad, unskillful states not yet present in > the here and now, > - to let go of bad, unskillful states that are present in the here > and now, ... > - to get skillful states not yet present in the here and now, ... > - to retain, establish, rid of confusion, complete, develop, > increase, and add to skillful states that are present in the here and > now" > > you say: > =============================== > Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. > However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of mindfulness > accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in this > respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which one > fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones... > ************************************************** > > This passage is another description of the same 4 samma-padhaanas > mentioned in the 2 passages in your earlier post which we have been > discussing in another thread. > > We have agreed in that thread that what is being described by > expressions such as 'generates intention', 'sets his thinking on', > 'rouses energy', and 'makes an effort' in the 4 samma-padhaanas is in > fact mind-states that are themselves kusala, not akusala. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. Kusala, not akusala. -------------------------------------------- > Furthermore, from the references in other 'samma-padhaana' passages > to 'developing the factors of enlightenment' etc it would seem that > that it must be kusala of the level of panna that directly > experiences the true nature of reality. This interpretation is I > think confirmed by the commentarial passage to the Samyutta Nikaya > extract cited earlier. In short, the 4 samma-padhaana are references > to path moments (mundane or supramundane). > > So in terms of your ultimate/penultimate classification given above, > I would see this as an instance of 'ultimate abandoning arising as > the fruit of wisdom'. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The opening line of mine that you quote, indeed, is "Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom." --------------------------------------------------- > > I have not come across any classification in the teachings of > 'penultimate abandoning arising as a result of mindfulness > accompanied by intention and energy'. To my reading of the texts and > commentaries on samma-padhaana, mindfulness/insight and the intention > or effort for the same are really different aspects of the same > moment of (mundane or supramundane) path consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No ned to woory about it, Jon - it's just mundane and conventioanl abandoning anyway! ;-)) [More seriously, this pertains to preliminary training. Guarding the senses is an activity recommended by the Buddha, it is something you and I *can* engage in, and it cultivates the mind.] ------------------------------------------------- > > Nyanatiloka describes 'padhaana' as 'the 4 right efforts > (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the 8-fold Path' (see > extract below). > > Jon > > Nyanatiloka's 'Buddhist Dictionary' > padhána: 'effort.' > The 4 right efforts (samma-padhána), forming the 6th stage of the > 8-fold Path (i.e. sammá-váyáma, s. magga) are: > (1) the effort to avoid (samvara-padhána), > (2) to overcome (pahána-padhána), > (3) to develop (bhávaná-padhána), > (4) to maintain (anurakkhana-padhána), > i.e. (1) the effort to avoid unwholesome (akusala) states, such as > evil thoughts, etc. (2) to overcome unwholesome states, (3) to > develop wholesome (kusala) states, such as the 7 elements of > enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), (4) to maintain the wholesome > states. > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19397 From: david_wheeler58 Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Good day James Is this from the Individual Vehicle, the Universal Vehicle, or the Apocalyptic Vehicle? Metta David > > From "Wolf" > > Contrary to popular opinion, wolves are shy, submissive animals. > There are many who still think that wolves are a problem in areas > where people are around, but there are very few, if any, verified > reports of healthy wolves ever seriously injuring humans in North > America. ... > > Some of the reasons for the fear of wolves are obvious. Children's > stories present the animal as a menace -- think of Little Red Riding > Hood, or The Three Little Pigs -- and old sayings such as "he's a > wolf in sheep's clothing" and "keeping the wolf from the door" added > more negative impressions. Legends about werewolves haven't helped > much, either! Possibly the worst damage came from the supposedly > true stories of first-person experiences involving the writer's > encounters with a circle of growling, slavering wolves slowly moving > in for the kill. > > Native North Americans and Eskimos admired the wolf and tried to > develop its hunting skills in themselves. Settlers, however, > depleted the wolf's prey of bison, deer, elk, and moose, leaving the > animal with livestock as its only prey. The ranchers' determination > to end the destruction of their livestock, along with government > cooperation, led to a campaign to eliminate the wolf. As late as > 1965, bounty payments of $20 to $50 per animal were paid to anyone > who killed a wolf by trapping, shooting from planes and snowmobiles, > and hunting with dogs. Putting out poisoned animal carcasses had the > unwanted side effect of killing other animals. > > Wolves are very intelligent and adaptable. > > With their well developed sense of smell, wolves can locate prey, > other pack members, or enemies. This sense also tells them if other > wolves have been in the territory, whether they were male or female, > and how long ago they were there. > > A very social animal, the wolf depends on and cooperates with other > pack members in defending the territory and obtaining food. > > Aggression is a part of the wolf hierarchy, as challenges are made > to both the male and female Alpha animals. However, aggressive > behavior in the pack occupies about 20% of wolf behavior, and seldom > involves the combatants receiving wounds, or even any actual > fighting. The usual aggressive interaction involves a lot of > bumping, chasing, snapping, and vocalization. > > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8388/wolf.html > > Howling Metta, James 19398 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:21am Subject: (2)3. Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, Among the four sets of Cetasikas,permanent ministers have been described.In this post,the flexible ministers will be delineated.They are given 'the sense' of 'flexible' because when they work with Akusala Cetasikas,they will become Akusala Cetasikas and when they work with Kusala Cetasikas they will become Kusala Cetasikas.They are called as ''Pakinnaka Cetasikas''. There are six of them who work as flexible ministers. 1.Vitakka It delibrately puts the Citta and other cetasikas on a particular Arammana.It makes sure that Citta is taking that Arammana.It works as a starter and all other Cetasikas and citta start working even though Citta is a leader.He accepts the advice of Vitakka and starts working on that particular sense and so on. 2.Vicara It makes reviews on the arammana and goes all the way round on that particular arammana.It functions as a reviewer.It advises the leader to review and review on the senses. 3.Piti It makes itself,citta and all other cetasikas cheerful.Citta likes the arammana as advised by Piti.In its presence,citta and all cetasikas do their business cheerfully and happily. 4.Viriya It makes exertion,effort,movement of citta.It functions as an effort- maker and sustains the activity. 5.Chandha It advises Citta its wish and Citta implements the wish.It sets a target or a goal.Citta and other cetasikas go hand in hand toward that goal. 6.Adhimokkha It determines the exact job.It advises a decision for Citta.Citta,the leader then decides according to Adhimokkha's advice. These six cetasikas work as flexible ministers to the king Citta.When the king does good things,they functions as good advisers.When the king does bad things,they flexibly agree and advise accordingly. Trying to see or realise these dhamma will have a good chance to probe internal(mental) phenomena. May you have an interest in this post and cast queries. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19399 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Way 42, Comm, Deportment (technical) Dear Jim, Although in midwinter in Canada, you took the trouble to help us with corrections, which I appreciate very much. I shall take careful note of it, Thank you, Nina. op 01-02-2003 22:03 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > > Jim: I think it is not correct to translate "kamma.t.thaanaadibhaavo" or > "kamma.t.thaana.m" as "the development of a meditation subject"