19400 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Hi James (and all Wolves;-)), --- "James " wrote: > Contrary to popular opinion, wolves are shy, submissive animals. ..... S: Oops! Looks like I may have trodden on a paw and accidentally insulted all wolves;-( ..... > Wolves are very intelligent and adaptable. > > With their well developed sense of smell, wolves can locate prey, > other pack members, or enemies. This sense also tells them if other > wolves have been in the territory, whether they were male or female, > and how long ago they were there. ..... S:.....now I’m getting nervous again... ..... > A very social animal, the wolf depends on and cooperates with other > pack members in defending the territory and obtaining food. ..... S:;-);-) ..... > .... The usual aggressive interaction involves a lot of > bumping, chasing, snapping, and vocalization. ..... S: Hmmm, very interesting and I didn’t make these comments;-) Dhp 133 to Mr Wolf: “Speak not harshly to any one: those thus addressed will retort. Painful indeed is vindictive speech; Exchange-blows may touch you.” Hoping to escape without any wounds, Metta, Sarah p.s If you want to see a picture of a wolf called Sarah and one called Buddha go to: http://www.wolvesnwildlife.org/animals.htm If you want to see Lone Wolf James (possibly in transition mode?)go to: http://www.tunevault.com/artist/show.asp?ID=180 ================================================ 19401 From: James Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 8:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Sarah, You have blatantly accused me of wrong speech. I don't agree with you. Actually, I believe that you, Jon, and Nina (the Triumvirate of this group) are guiltier of wrong speech and here are my reasons for this evaluation: (1) Abstaining from false speech (musavada veramani) All three of you speak of the Abhidhamma as if the Buddha taught it. The evidence that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma is overwhelming. This is not a matter of personal opinion; this is a matter of fact. Even though you are all intelligent enough to know that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, you continue to mislead with half-truths, innuendos, and bold lies about this matter. That is false speech. I have only stated what is accepted scholarship: The Lord Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I have not committed false speech. All three of you are supporting the philosophy that meditation practice isn't necessary in Buddhism. Even though the evidence is overwhelming to the contrary, as is even illustrated in the Lord Buddha's enlightenment, you continue to teach a position that isn't supported with direct evidence. You are well aware of this and yet continue to make this assertion as if it is well supported. That is false speech. I have only stated what corresponds with the true teachings: Meditation is essential in Buddhism. I have not committed false speech. (2) Abstaining from slanderous speech (pisunaya vacaya veramani) Nothing that I have written in my posts is to tear down the reputation of anyone else or to cast doubt onto their personal character. I have not written from jealousy or the desire to be respected or accepted. I have only spoken what I believe to be the truth and strongly question those who support lies and unsupported positions of dharma. However, whenever I do this, you and Jon (but not Nina) try to cast doubt onto my personal charater in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Personally, I don't care a great deal about this, your approval is not needed or required, but this is not Right Speech. I stated emphatically that I respect everyone in this group, including you, and you turn around and write two posts comparing me to a wild animal who will attack and injure people. That is slander. I played along, like it was a joke, but not anymore. (3) Abstaining from harsh speech (pharusaya vacaya veramani). This is the one where you may think you excel, but you really don't; and you may think I fail at this, but I am not as bad as you think (but not perfect I must admit). Harsh speech is judged with three criteria: Abusive Speech, Insult, and Sarcasm. Now, you may consider my speech abusive in some respects, but I don't. I consider it blunt and directed toward the right person at the right time. I have never called anyone names or put them down as a person; I have questioned their positions on certain questions of dharma, maybe using unflattering comparisons, but it wasn't judging them. I have also never given anyone fake compliments with backstabbing innuendo that questions them as a person. You equate my questioning positions of dharma as me question the person, but it isn't. However, I could understand why you might think this because this is what you do. You judge me as a person based on my positions: If I agree and am compliant, I am a good person; If I disagree and raise disturbing issues, I am a bad person. It is harsh speech to devalue my worth as a person based on your interpretations of what constitutes right speech. (4) Abstaining from idle chatter (samphappalapa veramani). Idle Chatter is talk that lacks depth or meaning. And, this is very important to realize, IT LACKS DEPTH AND MEANING FOR THOSE RECEIVING THE MESSAGE AS WELL AS THOSE SENDING. I have written several posts to this group trying to get the posts to mean more and be understandable. The universal language of this group is English and yet many members continue to post with un-translated Pali terms. And I don't buy Nina's position that Pali can't be translated into English. Thanisarro Bhikkhu does an excellent job. Pali is a centuries old dead language that isn't very exact. If someone cannot translate the Pali terms in the context of how they are used, they must not understand the message…don't blame the language. Language can be used to bring people together or it can be used to separate people. Posts containing untranslated Pali are idle chatter and they are divisive and elitist. I try to make sure that my posts are always clear, understandable, and to the point. It all comes down to a difficult sticking point, being nice vs. presenting the truth. I have tried to present the truth in the best way I can and each time I do I am accused of not being nice (maybe even attacking and killing people with my words). Obviously I cannot win in this situation (and it isn't the first time), it is time for me to leave. Tell the Star Kids not to write to me anymore; I won't be around to respond. Metta, James 19402 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Dear James, I aplogise for any offence caused by any inconsiderate or thoughtless comments I’ve made. I certainly would not have made these if it had occurred to me for an instant that you would have taken them so much to heart. We all know that you are very sincere in your presentations of dhamma and I certainly was not intending to accuse you of anything. I see, however, that my light-hearted and frivolous speech could cause offence and be mis-construed in spite of the close friendship and respect you know I have towards you and your study and practise of dhamma. I have plenty to learn, I realise. I accept and respect your views on the Abhidhamma and use of Pali. We have to agree to differ in these regards. I would urge you not to throw away this precious opportunity for dhamma access because of any ill-considered posts of mine or aversion to what Jon, Nina or I might write. Read and discuss dhamma with others who write more to your liking if you prefer. In any event, I wish you very well. with respect and metta, Sarah p.s Again I urge you not to let any annoyance with Jon,myself or others interfere with any sharing of dhamma between yourself and the Kids. Of course, that is your prerogative. ==================== 19403 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 9:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Dear James, You are write. Buddha DID NOT TEACH ABIDDHAMMA. Ven. Yanatharo -----Mensaje original----- De: James [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Enviado el: Martes, Febrero 04, 2003 03:30 p.m. Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [dsg] Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Sarah, You have blatantly accused me of wrong speech. I don't agree with you. Actually, I believe that you, Jon, and Nina (the Triumvirate of this group) are guiltier of wrong speech and here are my reasons for this evaluation: (1) Abstaining from false speech (musavada veramani) All three of you speak of the Abhidhamma as if the Buddha taught it. The evidence that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma is overwhelming. This is not a matter of personal opinion; this is a matter of fact. Even though you are all intelligent enough to know that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, you continue to mislead with half-truths, innuendos, and bold lies about this matter. That is false speech. I have only stated what is accepted scholarship: The Lord Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I have not committed false speech. All three of you are supporting the philosophy that meditation practice isn't necessary in Buddhism. Even though the evidence is overwhelming to the contrary, as is even illustrated in the Lord Buddha's enlightenment, you continue to teach a position that isn't supported with direct evidence. You are well aware of this and yet continue to make this assertion as if it is well supported. That is false speech. I have only stated what corresponds with the true teachings: Meditation is essential in Buddhism. I have not committed false speech. (2) Abstaining from slanderous speech (pisunaya vacaya veramani) Nothing that I have written in my posts is to tear down the reputation of anyone else or to cast doubt onto their personal character. I have not written from jealousy or the desire to be respected or accepted. I have only spoken what I believe to be the truth and strongly question those who support lies and unsupported positions of dharma. However, whenever I do this, you and Jon (but not Nina) try to cast doubt onto my personal charater in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Personally, I don't care a great deal about this, your approval is not needed or required, but this is not Right Speech. I stated emphatically that I respect everyone in this group, including you, and you turn around and write two posts comparing me to a wild animal who will attack and injure people. That is slander. I played along, like it was a joke, but not anymore. (3) Abstaining from harsh speech (pharusaya vacaya veramani). This is the one where you may think you excel, but you really don't; and you may think I fail at this, but I am not as bad as you think (but not perfect I must admit). Harsh speech is judged with three criteria: Abusive Speech, Insult, and Sarcasm. Now, you may consider my speech abusive in some respects, but I don't. I consider it blunt and directed toward the right person at the right time. I have never called anyone names or put them down as a person; I have questioned their positions on certain questions of dharma, maybe using unflattering comparisons, but it wasn't judging them. I have also never given anyone fake compliments with backstabbing innuendo that questions them as a person. You equate my questioning positions of dharma as me question the person, but it isn't. However, I could understand why you might think this because this is what you do. You judge me as a person based on my positions: If I agree and am compliant, I am a good person; If I disagree and raise disturbing issues, I am a bad person. It is harsh speech to devalue my worth as a person based on your interpretations of what constitutes right speech. (4) Abstaining from idle chatter (samphappalapa veramani). Idle Chatter is talk that lacks depth or meaning. And, this is very important to realize, IT LACKS DEPTH AND MEANING FOR THOSE RECEIVING THE MESSAGE AS WELL AS THOSE SENDING. I have written several posts to this group trying to get the posts to mean more and be understandable. The universal language of this group is English and yet many members continue to post with un-translated Pali terms. And I don't buy Nina's position that Pali can't be translated into English. Thanisarro Bhikkhu does an excellent job. Pali is a centuries old dead language that isn't very exact. If someone cannot translate the Pali terms in the context of how they are used, they must not understand the message…don't blame the language. Language can be used to bring people together or it can be used to separate people. Posts containing untranslated Pali are idle chatter and they are divisive and elitist. I try to make sure that my posts are always clear, understandable, and to the point. It all comes down to a difficult sticking point, being nice vs. presenting the truth. I have tried to present the truth in the best way I can and each time I do I am accused of not being nice (maybe even attacking and killing people with my words). Obviously I cannot win in this situation (and it isn't the first time), it is time for me to leave. Tell the Star Kids not to write to me anymore; I won't be around to respond. Metta, James 19404 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 11:10pm Subject: how to trim Emails Dear Kom, Could you or somebody teach me how to trim messages, other wise I feel like a fool sending a few words in reply to a long Email. Venerable Yanatharo 19405 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 11:50pm Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart Dear James, I would like you to know that I will miss your input if you insist on staying away. If it makes any difference to you, I read no malice at all in Sarah's post to you. I thought it was rather funny, actually. Keep the faith, bro :-) Herman PS That photo of you and the little girl with folded hands is one of my favourites. (Hope I haven't got you mixed up with someone else) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: > Sarah, > > You have blatantly accused me of wrong speech. 19406 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Frank, This thread has taken on a life of its own. I’d just like to add a little more on the earlier points in your post to me that I don’t think have been addressed by other discussions: Frank: >>Quoting and sutta citation is good, and I agree with most of your comments (with conditions and in some cases in a slightly different context which can mean the difference between nibanna and hell :-).<< ..... S: You’d have to elaborate. ..... Frank: >>Letting go of attachments to certain types of dhamma practice and shifting of strategy of mindfulness have a proper order, as I understand the suttas, and if certain practices are let go of prematurely, then it can lead to massive suffering.<< ..... S: As I understand ‘right’ practice, it is the same in the beginning, middle and end, i.e the development of satipatthana. So I don’t understand this issue to arise, but pls elaborate. ..... Frank: >> I crave enlightenment. I'm deeply attached to the dhamma, crave and cling deeply to seclusion, developing right concentration in the canonical sense, i.e. JHANAS, cling to virtue, cling to right speech, etc. As long as I have not crossed the ocean of samsara, it is right that I should cling to the raft.<< ..... S: It is certainly honest and good to appreciate just how much attachment there is to these objects as you do. Whether we can say that clinging is ever ‘right’ is another matter.....Do you have support for ‘right clinging’? ..... Frank: >>It is proper to crave and cling to these things that are conducive to cessation of dukkha until such time they are no longer necessary (i.e. full liberation). The raft should not be abandoned prematurely. Unless we are non-returners, it is quite premature to talk about letting go of clinging to dhamma theory, letting go of right concentration. Craving to every type of object, subtle, gross, wholesome and unwholesome, have to be let go of eventually, but in the right order.>> ..... S: Because the clinging, ignorance, occasional right views and wholesome states are so intertwined, I think it’s easy to come away with the idea that you express here that the craving and clinging to cessation of dukkha, dhamma and so on are essential ingredients of the path. I would say that they are inevitable and natural, but should be clearly seen for what they are: unwholesome and obstacles, but with detachment and awareness can also be objects of satipatthana. In other words, any wisdom develops in spite of the craving and not because of it, even though, indirectly, it can be a condition for wholesome states. ..... I’m leaving aside the other comments on seclusion and jhana that others have pursued further. I don’t understand it to be a matter of wishing or deciding what will be developed. Would that it be so simple;-) However, by understanding more about a)present states of mind and in particular whether they are wholesome or unwholesome at this moment, and b) the objects of the wholesome states of mind and just what can be known, samatha or vipassana bhavana can be slowly and gradually developed in the beginning without any special requirements. However, if there isn’t any precise understanding of the difference between wholesome and unwholesome states or if there is the idea that the attachment is necessary or right, I’m not sure how being in seclusion or under any other special conditions will help the development of the practice. I certainly agree that attachment is bound to be there -- and is bound to be far more insiduous than ever imagined -- until the highest stages of enlightenment. I’ll be glad to hear more of your comments or ideas. Metta, Sarah ======= 19407 From: Andrew Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 1:42am Subject: Re: Mirrors for the Young and Young at Heart --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Dear James, > > I would like you to know that I will miss your input if you insist on > staying away. > > If it makes any difference to you, I read no malice at all in Sarah's > post to you. I thought it was rather funny, actually. > > Keep the faith, bro :-) > > Herman > Hello James and Herman Well put, Herman. I hope you decide to stick around, James. I am also sure Sarah's post was written in a friendly manner, as her prompt reply attests. I certainly did not read her post as a "put down" of you and did not think any less of you after reading it. It was just a light-hearted moment. I began my wonderful Buddhist journey in the Tibetan tradition. How often I was told that people we have difficulties with are our greatest teachers. There is much truth in that. Stick around, mate. metta Andrew 19408 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Howard You said: <> To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event would be the so-called conventional view. What the Buddha's teachings disclose, that would not otherwise be apparent to us, is that these apparently single unified events in reality comprise different and discrete phenomena (each having its own individual characteristic or essence (sabhava)) and each arising because of its own separate set of conditions. The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due to wholly different conditions. The 'unity' created is not a unity in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). Also, apart from the 2 you mention, there are other phenomena playing equally crucial roles in this event (eye-base for one). (Btw, the mutual dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as object of experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in the world.) <> Yes, to reify anything must, by definition, involve a concept of self. However, directly experiencing the true nature of a fundamental phenomenon, in this case either the seeing consciousness or the visible object, is not a reification nor does it involve a concept of self. As Victor has I think been pointing out in his unique way, the line between true awareness and what you refer to as reification is a fine one. So while satipatthana at moments of seeing involves the direct experience of seeing consciousness or visible object, this is to be distinguished from *attempting to see the moment of seeing as being the separate phenomena of seeing consciousness and visible object*. That would be an instance of reifying things, involving ideas of self. My reading of the texts on this aspect, anyway. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Herman) - ... > =========================== > I doubt there is much of value that I can add. I think our > language is > limited. A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of > seeing, > is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects which, for > lack of > better terminology, we call "subjective" and "objective". With > seeing for > example, we unfortunately use the same word 'seeing' both for the > entire > event, and for its subjective aspect. The entire event is a > seeing-seen unity > for which we have no separate term. When we reify the subjective > pole, we are > "selfing" in the sense of taking that aspect of the event and > making an agent > out of it. When we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in > the sense of > making a "thing" out of the objective pole. These are my thoughts > on the > matter. > > With metta, > Howard 19409 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The world and dhammas - 1 Victor Thanks for these comments, and Happy Chinese New Year to you. I think you feel that part of my statement goes beyond the actual words spoken by the Buddha. I agree this is something one needs to be careful about. Here is a further revision which I think addresses this point (if I have understood it correctly): (1) The Buddha taught that in reality there are only different phenomena (dhammas) which are not self. (2) We can therefore say that what we take for ourselves and the world around us, in reality, is nothing more than different phenomena that are not self. (3) These phenomena were classified by the Buddha in various ways, including as sense bases (ayatanas), aggregates (khandhas) and elements (dhatus). Any further comments are welcome :-)). Jon --- "yu_zhonghao " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Happy Chinese New Year. > > Thanks for the references. What disintegrates is called 'the > world', and the five aggregates are called 'the world.' > > I don't think the Buddha taught what is taken for oneself is or > what > we take for ourselves is. When the Buddhat taught what the five > aggregates are*, he did not teach that they are what are taken for > oneself. > > I appreciate the The world and dhammas series. > > Regards, > Victor > > *Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48, Khandha Sutta, Aggregates > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-048.html 19410 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: subject and object Hi Jon, Just some points I wish to raise. You say that regarding the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event is the conventional view. I thought that the conventional view was tri-polar because it includes a subject, verb and object. "I" "see" "blue" is significantly different to " see blue" which may as well be "blue". (Abhidhamma/Visudh does not allow for "hear blue" which does not accord with observation) Your last paragraph includes "So while satipatthana at moments of seeing involves the direct experience of seeing consciousness or visible object" . Does this mean satipatthana experiences objectless seeing , and seeingless object? If there is no object, how would you know seeing wasn't hearing? All the best Herman PS Are you involved at all in the drafting of the new constitution for Hong Hong? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > You said: > < is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects ... The entire > event is a seeing-seen unity ...>> > > To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi- polar > event would be the so-called conventional view. What the Buddha's > teachings disclose, that would not otherwise be apparent to us, is > that these apparently single unified events in reality comprise > different and discrete phenomena (each having its own individual > characteristic or essence (sabhava)) and each arising because of its > own separate set of conditions. > > The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are > to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not > detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due > to wholly different conditions. The 'unity' created is not a unity > in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own > individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). > > Also, apart from the 2 you mention, there are other phenomena playing > equally crucial roles in this event (eye-base for one). > > (Btw, the mutual dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as > object of experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in > the world.) > > < taking that aspect of the event and making an agent out of it. When > we reify the objective pole, we are "selfing: in the sense of making > a "thing" out of the objective pole.>> > > Yes, to reify anything must, by definition, involve a concept of > self. However, directly experiencing the true nature of a > fundamental phenomenon, in this case either the seeing consciousness > or the visible object, is not a reification nor does it involve a > concept of self. > > As Victor has I think been pointing out in his unique way, the line > between true awareness and what you refer to as reification is a fine > one. So while satipatthana at moments of seeing involves the direct > experience of seeing consciousness or visible object, this is to be > distinguished from *attempting to see the moment of seeing as being > the separate phenomena of seeing consciousness and visible object*. > That would be an instance of reifying things, involving ideas of > self. > > My reading of the texts on this aspect, anyway. > > Jon > 19411 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ways of attainment (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > Thank you for pointing that out. But what's the difference between > the second and the fourth case? Good question. From a quick look, I would say that the fourth case makes no reference to the development of samatha (tranquillity). (The sutta reference you give below makes direct reference to tranquillity, and seems to be not the same as the fourth case in the other sutta.) Jon > An elaboration of the fourth case is found in: > > Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) > Pansadhovaka Sutta * > The Dirt-washer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html 19412 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > Am I correct to say that samatha is not necessary for the > development of insight, but it is necessary for the attainment of > enlightenment. To my understanding, enlightenment is the outcome of the development of insight. That is to say, when insight (into the true nature of presently arising phenomena) has been developed to a sufficient degree, enlightenment follows as a matter of course. If this is so, then the conditions for the attainment of enlightenment must be no different from the conditions for the development of insight. Here are a couple of sutta references: Conditions necessary for the development of insight: AN IV, 246 (Trans: NDB 91) The Growth of Wisdom "These four things, O monks, are conducive to the growth of wisdom. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the good Dhamma, proper attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things are conducive to the growth of wisdom." Conditions necessary for the attainment of enlightenment: SN LV, 5 Sotapattisamyutta (Trans: CDB 55.05) "Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry." Jon 19413 From: bodhi342 Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 7:53am Subject: Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Nina, This is just an interim progress report, to explain my delay in responding to your illuminating message. I have been reading and trying to understand the Upanisa Sutta reference you provided. It is a treasure of understanding the human condition, even though I perceive that I get only a glimpse of its value. The going has been slow because there is involved a process of testing new information against the old data banks - however much I try to avoid such comparison. The language of the commentary is also quite dense and packed with inference that I would not want to miss. I have to read and reread. I realize now how narrow my perception of dukkha as stimulus or medicine was. It is the necessary condition for the development of faith, but these are just the transition points in the whole series comprising the mundane and transcendental orders. The whole concept of dependant arising however appeals, as my mind has been trained to understand science, history etc. in the form of sequence. This sutta is like an architectural drawing of the whole scheme - the most efficient way that my own mind can grasp matters. Thank you for prescribing exactly what this patient needed to better understand the Dhamma! Will get back with more details, if and once, I am able to formulate the message more coherently. with metta and respect, dharam 19414 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dukkha as Medicine?Upanisa sutta. Dear Dharam and Nina, I agree with Dharam that "This sutta is like an architectural drawing of the whole scheme - the most efficient way that my own mind can grasp matters. Thank you for prescribing exactly what this patient needed to better understand the Dhamma!" In my opinion this sutta is also a refutation of the idea that 'the Buddha never taught abhidhamma'. This is, I think, an excellent (though by no means unique) example of abhidhamma in the suttapitaka. mike 19415 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 8:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] how to trim Emails Dear Venerable, I am sending you a message off-line for this. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu [mailto:sanz@n...] > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 11:11 PM > To: Dhamma Study Group > Subject: [dsg] how to trim Emails > > > Dear Kom, Could you or somebody teach me how to 19416 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 9:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Susima Sutta 2 (was, More on Forest and Lone Dwelling) Hi Jon, > To my understanding, enlightenment is the outcome of the development of > insight. That is to say, when insight (into the true nature of presently > arising phenomena) has been developed to a sufficient degree, > enlightenment follows as a matter of course. > If this is so, then the conditions for the attainment of > enlightenment must be no different from the conditions for the > development of insight. I am wondering whether by "samatha" or "tranquility", do you interpret it as "jhana/absorption concentration"? The reason why I say that "tranquility" is needed is because concentration is always needed at the time magga/phala arise. For those of us who are unable to attain jhana concentration or access concentration, this will be momentary concentration. I quote from "A Critical Analysis of the Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation" by Venerable Henepola Gunaratana. ... the Maha Tika again identifies momentary concentration with the type of concentration appropriate to one whose vehicle is insight: ... ... supramundane concentration and insight are impossible without mundane concentration and insight to precede them; for without the access and absorption concentration in one whose vehicle is serenity, or without the momentary concentration in one whose vehicle is insight, and without the Gateways to Liberation..., the supramundane can never in either case be reached. Whichever vehicle one uses, concentration (or rather tranquility) is always needed at the time of magga/phala. This is very evident in various suttas, such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-204.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html And I identify momentary concentration with these two types of concentration described in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html I find that identifying these two types of concentration with momentary concentration is not in contradiction with what the late Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw taught. I quote from Venerable Henepola again: A concise description of the way momentary concentration arises is presented by the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. The Sayadaw explains that a meditator begins the development of insight by attending to the diverse mental and bodily processes that become manifest to him, making the tactile process of the rising and falling of the abdomen his basic object of mindfulness. At first, during the early part of his practice, his mind tends to be distracted by wandering thoughts, but with time his thought-process of noticing becomes well concentrated. When he can notice the objects that appear continuously, undisturbed by hindrances, his practice has arrived at momentary concentration: While thus practising the exercise of noticing with "unhindered mind', the noticing mind will get more close to and fixed at whichever object is noticed, and the act of noticing will proceed without break. At that time there arises in him, in uninterrupted succession, 'the concentration of mind lasting for a moment', directed to each object noticed. The Sayadaw holds that this momentary concentration claims the place of purification of mind in the dry insight-worker's course of development. He states that though it "has only momentary duration, its power of resistance to being overwhelmed by opposition corresponds to that of access concentration." And in reference to "the concentration of mind lasting for a moment", I quote from Venerable Henepola once again: The importance of momentary concentration in the vehicle of insight is testified to both by the classical Theravada exegetical literature and by modern exponents of the "dry vipassana" approach. The Visuddhimagga, in its discussion of mindfulness of breathing, states that "at the actual time of insight, momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics (of impermanence, and so on)." Its commentary, the Paramatthamanjusa, defines the phrase "momentary unification of the mind" as concentration lasting only for a moment, stating: "For that too, when it occurs uninterruptedly on its object in a single mode and is not overcome by opposition, fixes the mind immovably, as if in absorption." And in reference to my post on "Right Concentration" in ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19385 It can be deduced that the sixty arahants who have the threefold knowledge and the sixty arahants who have sixfold supernormal knowledge must have practiced all four forms of concentration described in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html The sixty arahants who are emancipated in both ways would have practised only three forms of concentration with the exception of the second one. And the rest of the arahants emancipated by insight alone would have practised only the last two forms of concentration (which I had identified as momentary concentration). In brief, I am saying that for magga/phala to arise, concentration (or tranquility) is always needed. It need not be jhana/absorption concentration or access concentration. But if our vehicle is by insight and without jhanas, at least momentary concentration is necessary. Indeed, the Buddha admitted that there are various degrees of concentration when he said: 13. Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight? ... 15. "Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops INTENSE CONCENTRATION on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html And I identify momentary concentration as part of Right Concentration in one whose vehicle is by insight. If one does not practice jhana/absorption or access concentration, at least one must practice momentary concentration. This is the minimum to fulfill the Noble Eight-fold Path factor of Right Concentration. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19417 From: Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/4/03 6:25:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > You said: > event is a seeing-seen unity ...>> > To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi-polar > event would be the so-called conventional view. What the Buddha's > > teachings disclose, that would not otherwise be apparent to us, is > that these apparently single unified events in reality comprise > different and discrete phenomena (each having its own individual > characteristic or essence (sabhava)) and each arising because of its > own separate set of conditions. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This will bring a smile to your face, Jon - I completely disagree. They are not separate and discrete phenomena somehow related. They are interdependent. There is no seeing without the seen, and there is no seen without the seeing. ------------------------------------------------- > > The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are > to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not > detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due > to wholly different conditions. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They only "exist" at that moment, and one does not arise without the other. --------------------------------------------------- The 'unity' created is not a unity> > in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own > individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Their mutual dependence is part of what makes each of them empty. You wrote that "To my understanding, to regard the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event would be the so-called conventional view." I again disagree. The conventional view sees a self-existent observer and a separate self-existing observed object, two separate and discrete entities. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no. 3 Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no. 3 Thus, there are six groups of rúpa which originate from citta and these groups are different. When there is ordinary bodily movement without the intention to convey a meaning, bodily intimation does not arise. In that case the undecad of lightness, lahutå, arises, a group of eleven rúpas, but not the nonad of bodily intimation, kåya-viññatti, a group of nine rúpas, or the dodecad of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, and lightness, a group of twelve rúpas. We should investigate the truth of realities in daily life. Sometimes citta arises that wishes to convey a meaning and sometimes citta arises that does not want to convey a meaning at all. Thus, the rúpas that originate from different cittas must also be diverse. There are four groups of rúpa originating from temperature, utu: 1. The pure octad, suddhatthaka kalåpa, a group of eight rúpas consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas). This group arises for the first time in living beings at the moment of presence of the rebirth-consciousness and from then on it arises at each moment of presence of the rúpa which is temperature [7]. 2. The sound nonad, a group of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas and sound. This is sound which does not originate from citta. It can arise with rúpas which are dead matter and with rúpas of the body. 3. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. These three rúpas can be the condition for bodily movement when citta intends to cause such movement [8]. 4.The dodecad of sound and lightness, a group consisting of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas and sound. These rúpas are produced by temperature when sound arises together with these vikåra rúpas [9] . There are two groups of rupas originating from nutrition: 1. The pure octad, consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas. 2. The undecad with lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas. Apart from the factors of citta and temperature, the three vikåra rúpas can originate also from the factor of nutrition. If there are only vikåra rúpas originating from temperature but nutrition is lacking, the vikåra rúpas do not have enough strength to condition supple and fast movement of the body. Footnotes 7. There are three infinitesimally short moments of citta: its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its falling away. Kamma produces in a living being rúpa from the moment the rebirth-consciousness arises; it produces rúpa at all three moments of citta: at its arising moment, at the moment of its presence and at the moment of its falling away. At the moment of presence (tiììhi khaùa) of the rebirth-consciousness, utu, that is the element of heat, produced by kamma at the arising moment of the rebirth-consciousness, can in its turn produce new rúpas. Rúpa such as heat or nutrition cannot at their arising moment produce other rúpas, because they are too weak. Heat and nutrition can, during the moments of their presence, produce other rúpas and they do so throughout life. 8. Even if citta intends to produce rúpa in order to move the limbs, it cannot do so if there are not also vikåra rúpas conditioned by the right temperature. The three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition each produce groups of rúpa that include the vikåra rúpas. These three groups support one another. See ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Appendix to Rúpa, by Acharn Suijn. 9. When there is sound by snapping the fingers or applauding, vikåra rúpas arise together with sound. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Appendix to Rúpa. 19419 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] calm and concentration Hi Swee Boon, Christine and all, Thank you, Christine for posting Susima sutta with B.B's notes. op 02-02-2003 17:20 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: > As to the >> fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. >> He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. > > I am particularly unsure as to what is meant by the fourth factor. I > think this is the pure insight vehicle whereby samatha is > automatically issued when insight is completed. Would you please > elaborate on it? N: Meanwhile you read more archives posts and Jon also added and will add more remarks. In Bgk recently it was explained: sukkha vipassaka. May be aslo my translated Dhamma Issue 2, on Fruition attainment can shed some light on the matter. In the Co: also arahats can be sukkha vipassaka. Naturally, when insight is being developed there is also calm, samadhi, of the eightfold Path. But what is the Path: it exists in a moment. Like yogavacara, it is the citta that develops. One moment of awareness and then there is also calm, next moment ugly akusala, but this also should be known. All nama and rupa that naturally appear should be known as they are. I was reminded: no selection of the object of mindfulness. We should not think, Oh no it is so ugly, not fit for awareness. You quote my post: Then, when we read about jhanas, we will understand all these >> passages in their right perspective. No more doubts whether all >> of us should develop jhana. N: The end of my post is not clear, one could read it in two ways. I meant: no doubt, jhana is not necessary. Anyway: who can? Who has the real jhana. not something he erroneaously takes for jhana? > S: Does that mean jhana is a requisite for Sotapanna Enlightenment? I > have read about jhana concentration, access concentration and > momentary concentration. I think Sotapanna Enlightenment (First > Path) requires merely momentary concentration. N: No, jhana is not a requisite for enlightenment. At the moment of enlightenment samadhi is so strong because of the object: nibbana. It can be compared to, is of the strength of, appana samadhi, attainment concentration. I had conditions to reflect on calm that accompanies each kusala citta. And also on concentration. I thought of studying the teachings, reflecting on difficult points. It can only be done by kusala with calm and concentration, and here I am not thinking at all of jhana. I was considering how this is again another point we learn from the teachings, that can be verified in daily life. We can see that calm that is kusala is opposed to excitement, unrest, aversion, which makes it impossible to really consider the Dhamma. All akusala is accompanied by ignorance that covers up the truth. When we consider kusala citta with calm, a fine discrimination is necessary to detect attachment we may take for calm. Attachment comes in disguise. As Kom recently said, attachment is so subtle. I want to tell Christine:we learn from the teachings about calm (passaddhi, a constructive minister!) that is kusala, a quality accompanying kusala citta. At this moment we can verify what we learn in daily life. Even this one point causes us to have more confidence in the Buddha's teachings. I remember a passage from the series on patience: With Pukkusati we can say: the Buddha is my teacher. Now it is very natural that doubt arises at times, because only the sotapanna has eradicated it. We should not be surprised by any kind of akusala. But, akusala can and should be object of awareness, it is conditioned. Nina. 19420 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, patience, no. 22 Perfections, Ch 7, patience, no. 22 The Commentary to this Sutta, the ³Sumangalavilåsiní² explains as to the First Stanza, the first verse: ³khantí paramam tapo titikkhå, patience, restraint, is the highest ascetism², that khanti is adhivåsana-khanti. Khanti is a condition for the development of all kusala, whereas impatience conditions the arising of all evil through citta, and then through the body and through speech. Adhivåsana-khanti is restraint with regard to all situations in daily life, to our environment, and this is the highest ascetism. The Commentary explains: ³The words Œnibbånam paramam vadanti Buddhå, nibbåna is supreme, the Buddhas say¹, mean that all Buddhas say that nibbåna is the supreme dhamma in all respects.² There is no other dhamma which is superior to nibbåna, because the other dhammas arise because of conditions, they are present for just a very short moment and then they fall away completely. Nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma arise because of the appropriate conditions just for a moment and then fall away. How then can conditioned dhammas be a refuge? The Buddha said that nibbåna is the supreme dhamma, it is the dhamma through which defilements are eradicated completely, so that they never arise again. We read: ³As to the words, Œna hi pabbajito parúpaghåti, he, verily, is not a recluse who harms another¹, this means that a person who harms, afflicts and injures someone else because he lacks adhivåsana khanti, endurance, cannot be called a recluse. As to the word Œpårúpaghåti, he harms¹, this means that he violates síla, because síla is called paramam, meaning, supreme. It is explained that an ascetic who is vexing another being, who is someone who harms another, ruins his own síla. This means that he cannot be called a recluse.² When someone is a monk who has to observe síla transgresses síla, when he ruins his own síla, he cannot be considered as a monk. As regards a lay person, when he applies the teachings, his defilements can be eradicated. He should consider precisely, in all details, his action and speech, he should know whether they affect or harm someone else. Even if he does not utter harsh speech he should know whether he hurts the citta of someone else. He should have a refined discrimination of his action and speech. We read further on in the Commentary: A person harms someone else because he has no endurance, adhivåsana khanti. If he kills other beings, even gadflies and mosquitos, he cannot be considered as a recluse.What is the reason? Because he cannot get rid of impurity. Someone is considered as a recluse (pabbajita) because he has got rid of impurities in himself. This is the characteristic of a recluse. 19421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: different types of translations. On yahoo an interesting point was raised, and I frwd my post: op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@s...: So it would be great if we get > more critiques and ideas from people. Dear Piya Tan, I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a few remarks. I think guiding principles will influence one's translation. Some take as principle the litterary aspect and consider by style and idiom what is ancient and what is from later time. They are not inclined to the Abhidhamma nor to the commentaries. Whereas others find that in order to understand the meaning of the texts it is necessary to consider the whole Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma, as well as the commentaries which are based on the Theravada tradition. Thus, a sutta could be considered in a much wider context and one could carefully compare different texts. An example is the Raahulovaada sutta. The Co mentions that for the understanding of what the Buddha said to Rahula about rupa, one should go to the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint and the Vis. Khandha Niddesa. Here is explained what is included in rupakkhandha: all physical phenomena, inside the body or outside. This will influence one's transl of the word rupa: it is part of rupakkhandha. It could be translated as matter or materiality. Matter may be a loaded term, associated with science, and thus there are always many problems to find the right word. When rupa is translated as form I do not mind it, because I know the Pali term and its meaning. Actually, form could imply: what can be seen, thus, ruupaaramma.na, visible object. This is only one of the many rupas contained in rupakkhandha, but all rupas are implied in rupakkhandha. Now this is an example how translation can be influenced by one's ideas about the sources. Further on in the Sutta I shall come across another example, but I shall wait until we are there. Different translations can also influence one's practice: is jhana necessary to attain enlightenment or not? On dsg list we discussed the Susima sutta with different transl: one by AtI and one by Ven. Bodhi. Ven. Bodhi gave notes of the commentary which made it clear that enlightenment can be attained without first cultivating jhana, whereas ATI added a personal note that it is necessary. Hereby I do not imply that one should be guided by only one sutta. We see that inclinations to different kinds of practice influences people's translations. When people read the Satipatthana sutta or the Anapanasati sutta with or without the commentaries, this will also make a great difference: they may also reach diverse conclusions as to the practice. This certainly will influence their translations. Here are just some random thoughts I have, Nina. 19422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:14am Subject: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Commentary 3. Sarah, I read Ja 16, it is wonderful. A correction, I misspelled something: lucky is bhadda (I had baddha, which is wrong). Mahaaraahulovaadasutta Commentary 3. Sutta passage: Atha kho aayasmaa Raahulo "Ko najja Bhagavataa sammukhaa ovaadena ovadito gaama.m pi.n.daaya pavisissatii"ti tato pa.tinivattitvaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisiidi palla'nka.m aabhujitvaa uju.m kaaya.m pa.nidhaaya parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa. Then the venerable Rahula thought, "Who indeed [nu from n'ajja], after being personally exhorted by the Blessed One himself today, would go into the village for alms?" Turning back, he sat down at the foot of a certain tree, crossed his legs and, keeping his body upright, established mindfulness before him. Commentary: We read that the Buddha placed Rahula foremost (agge) among his disciples who are monks eager for training (Ang I, 24). Rahula uttered his "Lion's roar" in the midst of the Order of monks, saying that he was the foremost in being eager to follow the training. We then read: Then this venerable person, after he had given up the task of (receiving) almsfood, and after he had left the sitting place where he had received the exhortation turning back he sat down at the foot of a certain tree.> ***** Nina. 19423 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 2:27pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration -- Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your clear analysis here. It is a sticking point for many. As Nina said recently we have to know the context on suttas - often the Buddha was speaking to monks who were samathayanika or who he knes had the abilities to be samathayanika. These were masters of jhana, they could attain different jhanas readily and so jhana was daily life for them, then the jhana could be basis for insight in that insight could distinguish nama from rupa immediately upon leaving jhana. We should know ourselves, I believe: what dhammas are most daily now. For me there is seeing, hearing, tasting, desire, aversion, feelings, etc; these are the ones that arise in the present and that there can be 'careful investigation' of. I add some quotes Majjhima Nikaaya I. 1. 8. Sallekhasutta.m (8) Purity . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. ........Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of consciousness, with there is nothing attained to abides in the sphere of no-thingness. It might occur to him I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, purifying should be done thus: Others will be hurters, we will be non-hurters. Others will be destroyers of life, we will not destroy life. Others will talk frivolously, we will abstain from frivolous talk. Others will be coveting, we will abstain from coveting. Others will be with an angry mind, we will not be angry. Others will be with wrong view, we will be with right view. Others will speak wrong words, we will speak right words. Others will be with wrong actions, we will be with right actions. Others will be with wrong livelihood, we will be with right livelihood. Others will be with wrong effort, we will be with right effort. Others will be with wrong mindfulness, we will be with right mindfulness. Others will be with wrong concentration, we will be with right concentration. Others will be with wrong knowledge, we will be with right knowledge. Others will be released wrong, we will be rightfully released. .. Others will have evil friends, we will have good friends. Others will be negligent, we will be diligent. Others will be without faith, we will be with faith. .. Others will be not wise, we will be wise. Others will hold to views tenaciously, we will give up views quite easily. Cunda, purifying should be done in this manner. . http://www.abhidhamma.org/sallekkha%20sutta.htm Visuddhimagga XV11267 explains that even such pure conduct and practice, including the development of jhana that leads to the deva world and highest brahma world can still be silabbataparamasa : "So silabataparamsa is a condition for all three namely the sense- desire, fine-material (rupa-brahma)and immaterial kinds of becoming(arupa Brahma". The development of samatha is profound and difficult but that of vipassana is more profound. If one genuinely believes they have the accumulations to master jhana then great, but not all of us do, it is good to understand this moment as it really is right now, not try to change it to what we wish it to be. RobertK - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi All, > > From what I have read from the Suttas from ATI, it has always given > me the impression that Right Concentration means purely the > attainment of the jhanas. Nevertheless, "deep down in my heart", I > know that this is wrong, but I could not justify it in concrete > ways. The suggestion by Thanissaro Bhikkhu that the monks mentioned > in the Susima Sutta had attained at least the first jhana does no > help at all. > > Today is a public holiday and I spent the afternoon reading through > the "Useful Posts" on this subject. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Gradual Sayings (II, Book of the Fours, Ch IX, § 7, Kinds of > Recluses) > > Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What > four? The unshaken recluse, the blue-lotus recluse, the white-lotus > recluse, and the recluse who is exquisite among recluses. > > And how, monks, is one an unshaken recluse? Herein, monks, a monk is > a pupil, one who has entered the way; he dwells aspiring for the > unsurpassed rest of the toil... > > And how, monks, is a person a blue-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, by > destroying the asavas, has reached the heart¹s release, the release > by wisdom that is free from the asavas, and having realized it > abides therein. Yet does he not abide experiencing with his own > person the eight deliverances... > > And how, monks, is a person a white-lotus recluse? Herein, a monk, > by destroying the asavas...abides therein, and abides experiencing > with his own person the eight deliverances... > > And how, monks, is a person a recluse exquisite among recluses? > Herein a monk when invited enjoys a plentiful supply of robes... Now > monks, if rightly speaking one would speak about the recluse > exquisite among recluses, it is just of me (the Buddha) that he > would rightly use the words... > > (Nina: The eight deliverances, vimokkha, see Buddhist dictionary > (Nyanatiloka) includes both rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana.) > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > The above Sutta posted by Nina was very helpful. It shows that > Arahantship can be attained without any (mundane) jhana attainment. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > We read in the Kindred Sayings I, I, 190, Vangisa Sutta, Invitation, > that with the Buddha were 500 monks who were arahats. > > The Buddha said to Sariputta: "There is nothing, Sariputta, for > which I blame these five > hundred Monks, in deed or word. Of these monks, sixty have the > threefold knowledge, sixty have sixfold supernormal knowledge, sixty > are emancipated in both ways, and then others are emancipated by > insight (alone)." > > ("Emancipated in both ways" can be understood with reference to > Anguttara Nikaya IX.45.) > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an09-045.html > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > The above Sutta posted by Nina was also very helpful. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 > Samadhi Sutta > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which > four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed > & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is > the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads > to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of > the effluents. > > Number 1: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? > There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought > & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & > pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from > directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading > of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically > sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of > which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a > pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as > with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & > remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration > that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the > here & now. > > (RobertK: This is the mundane jhanas, the pleasant abiding here and > now. They are right concentration but are only right concentration > of the eightfold path when they are used as the basis for insight by > those who take that path.) > > Number 2: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? > There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light > and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the > day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. > By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened > mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed > & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. > > (RobertK: This is a special type of mundane jhana that gives one > certain powers; "knowledge and vision" here is not of the type that > is part of the eightfold path.) > > Number 3: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the > case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as > they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as > they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts > are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they > subside. This is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. > > Number 4: "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is > the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with > reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is > form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, > such their origination, such their passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This > is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > The above Sutta posted by RobertK was very useful. I have always > ignored this Sutta because whenever I read Number 2, I always feel > bewildered. Now I understand it as the development of abhinna powers > approved by the Buddha. All four types of concentration are > practiced by the Buddha. But Number 3 and 4 are the really useful > types of concentration that will lead to Unbinding and they do not > need any jhana attainments. > > I agree with RobertK when he says "They are right concentration but > are only right concentration of the eightfold path when they are > used as the basis for insight by those who take that path.". Indeed, > even if the mundane jhana was attained but there is no insight as to > the five aggregates present in that mundane jhana, what's the point? > It cannot be right concentration if there is no insight into the > five aggregates associated with that mundane jhana. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > In response to the Susima Sutta, Nina said: > > The question, atikamma ruupe aaruppaa te kayena phusitva ... > transcending rupajjhana and remaining in arupajjhana, (kaya is here > mental body, citta and cetasika) one could interprete it in > different ways: have you attained arupajhana after having attained > rupajjhana: have you both jhanas, no is the answer. What does it > mean? We have neither, or, we have rupajhana but not arupajhana, and > the latter possibility Ven. Thanissaro finds plausible. Then we > should read the whole sutta and commentary, and draw our conclusion. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > Indeed, we should draw our own conclusion. My conclusion is that > Susima intended to ask the Arahants if they had attained both rupa > and arupa jhanas. Whenever I read the Buddha's teachings about the > jhanas, he always start from the first jhana. I don't think that I > had read any sutta where the Buddha teaches about jhana and he only > talks about arupa jhanas without mentioning the rupa jhanas. There > is every reason to believe that Susima intended to ask the Arahants > if they had attained both rupa and arupa jhanas. He could be just as > perplexed as me as to whether jhana and abhinna attainments are > necessary for Unbinding. Afterall, he listened to the same Dhamma > discourses delivered by the Buddha as I am reading now. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > "So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of > kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. > Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his > disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. > Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. > Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into > regret. This is our message to you." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn35-145.html > > (RobertK explained the meaning of jhana in the context of this > Sutta.) > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11524 > > Indeed, the Buddha could not have meant merely the attainment of > mundane jhana when he said "Practice jhana". More likely than not, > he was telling them to practice concentration type Number 4 that > leads to Unbinding. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Nina: What people tend to forget: pa~n~naa is a necessary factor for > the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. If one thinks > that samatha is a base for vipassana: one tends to forget that one > has to be highly skilful in jhana, and acquire the masteries > (vassis): entering jhana whenever one wishes, changing the stages > whenever one wishes, emerging whenever one wishes (see > Visuddhimagga). Moreover, the Vis also explains that very few people > can attain even access concentration, and the stages of jhana. Vis. > XII, 8: > the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand can do > it. To extend the sign and reach absorption is difficult for one who > has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or thousand > can do it....> > It is important to take note of this warning. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > This "warning" was very useful. > > > There are some other posts by Jonothan Abbott which were useful as > well. Example: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3539 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/7821 > > > I think this Dhamma Study Group is very blessed to have such well- > learned masters of the Dhamma in Nina, RobertK and Jonothan Abbott. > I appreciate all of your explanations. > > On a personal note, I feel that Thanissaro Bhikkhu, by emphasizing > on the jhanas in his translation and notes, is making the > realization of Magga very unreachable for the common worldling. In > contrast, I felt full of hope when I read in ADL Chapter 24: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Some people think that enlightenment could not occur in daily life, > they believe that it is necessary to be in a solitary place in order > to attain nibbåna. The development of vipassanå is the development > of right understanding of all realities occurring in daily life. > When paññå has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can > be attained, enlightenment can occur in the middle of one's daily > activities. As we have seen, the attainment of enlightenment is only > a few moments of citta which arise and fall away within split > seconds. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19424 From: Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 3:37pm Subject: Way 46, Comm, Deportment "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Modes of Deportment, p. 58 Yatha yatha va panassa kayo panihito hoti tatha tatha nam pajanati = "Or just as his body is disposed so he understands it." Iti ajjhattam va = "Thus internally." In this way the bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, examining his own four modes of deportment. Bahiddha va = "Or externally." Or examining the four modes of deportment of another. Ajjhatta-bahiddha va = "Or internally and externally." Or examining at one time his own four modes of deportment and at another time another's four modes of deportment, he lives. Samudaya-dhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." Also dissolution-things are included here. Origination and dissolution should be dwelt upon by way of the fivefold method beginning with the words: "He, thinking 'the origination of materiality comes to be through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of conditions, sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality." [Tika] In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the sense of the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of birth [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. He sees the passing away of the aggregate while thinking that the dissolution of materiality comes to be through the dissolution of ignorance, in the sense of the dissolution of conditions, and through the dissolution of craving, karma and food, in the same way, and while seeing the sign of vicissitude [viparinamalakkhana]. [T] For the arising of the materiality-aggregate ignorance, craving, karma and food are the principal reasons. But these are not all. As it is said that one sees the arising of the materiality-aggregate when beholding also the rebirth-sign or the bare origination state called the integration-succession [upacaya santati] of the various material forms [rupa] becoming manifest in the conscious flux [saviññanaka santana], owing to ignorance, craving, karma, and nutriment, and from consciousness [citta] and the process of caloricity [utu], the knowledge of arising is fivefold. [T] Similarly the knowledge of passing away or ceasing is fivefold. The sign of vicissitude or change is the bare state of dissolution [bhanga sabhava] called impermanency [aniccata]. Atthi kayoti va panassa, sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists'." The exposition of this is to be done in the manner already stated in the preceding section. Here, the mindfulness which examines the four modes of deportment is the Truth of Suffering. The pre-craving which brings about that mindfulness is the Truth of Origination. The non-occurrence of either is the Truth of Cessation. The Real Path which understands suffering, abandons origination, and takes cessation as object, is the Truth of the Way. The yogi having endeavored thus by way of the Four Truths, arrives at peace. This is the portal to emancipation up to arahantship of the bhikkhu occupied with the four modes of deportment. 19425 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 11:07pm Subject: RE: [dsg] To Christine Dear Neo Swee Boon, Christine, James, and others, > Doubt cannot be cured by speculating about > matters which do not lead > to the goal; it can only be cured by being aware > of the nama and > rupa which present themselves now. Even when > there is doubt it can > be realized as only a type of nama arising > because of conditions and > not self. Thus the reality of the present moment > will be known more > clearly. > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid7.html > > Let me echo my deep appreciation for this post (Excellent!). One thing that we can remember about the buddha is that he's the expositor of truths, and one who knows all the worlds. By understanding doubt as it is, we can begin to appreciate who the Buddha really was, what he taught, and what one must know to become englightened. The Buddha's dhamma is truly beautiful, unlike all other teachings, as it is ultimately undeniable (because it has its own characterisitics) and unchangeable. The ultimate proof of the Buddha's teachings is right in front of our nose, at every moment. kom 19426 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 11:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hello Howard, Don't let me interrupt this interesting discussion but I'd like to get the issues clear in my mind. Jon made a couple of points which I thought were important and I'd like to know whether you accept his reasonings and, if not, what your reasonings are. Sorry in advance, if I have misread things. A point you originally made was: ----------- >>> A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects ... The entire event is a seeing-seen unity ...>>> ----------- to which Jon replied, in part; --------------- >> The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' are to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due to wholly different conditions. >> -------------- That they have `wholly different conditions' is something that hadn't particularly occurred to me until now. Jon added; "Btw, the mutual dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as object of experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in the world." (end quote) I'm not sure if you took these points into account when you replied: ------------------------------------------------- > They only "exist" at that moment, and one does not arise without the other. > --------------------------------------------------- I don't see why the co-arising of two phenomena should make them essentially one. May I ask you, do you agree that each of the two is dependent on wholly different conditions? The other point Jon made, that I would like to get your opinion on, was: ---------- >> The 'unity' created is not a unity in the absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own individual essence or characteristic (sabhava). >> ---------------------------------------------------- Your reply was: -------------- > Their mutual dependence is part of what makes each of them empty. > ------------------ Are we to infer that you take a different view of the teaching of sabhava? Do you regard the terms,`emptiness' and `essence,' as being mutually exclusive? Sorry to keep harping on about this -- I think I have asked you the same question before -- but it's a lot easier to follow a discussion if one knows what the participants are accepting as common ground. Kind regards, Ken H 19427 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 1:44am Subject: more on appreciation and anumodhana Hi Kom, Swee Boon, Christine, Nina, Mike, Ray and All, Kom:> Let me echo my deep appreciation for this post (Excellent!)<< > ....The ultimate proof of the Buddha's teachings > is right in front of our nose, at every moment.<< ..... I also wished to appreciate some of Swee Boon’s recent posts on ‘doubt’ (with useful citations)and I also found his summary of suttas on concentration and nibbana very helpful. I fished out Christine’s ‘unanswered’ lemmings post, written in her usual witty style;-): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12668.html ..... Chris: “One has to know a little of the Ultimate Goal - else how would one know that it is 'safe' to aim for? One wonders about Lemmings ... what are they thinking as they rush towards the edge of the cliff? Is the one out in front shouting: "Don't ask questions, chaps, there are no words to describe what's going to happen to us, only put all your energy into getting there. We're never going to agree, so cut the chatter. Just keep running." :)” ..... I would say, ask lots of questions and add lots of wise reflection. Check what’s in front of your nose very carefully.....if it’s ‘doubt’, so be it. No reality is any more worthy of being known than another. Follow the path of detachment instead of running blindly or rushing to any cliff edge. When there is wise reflection with sati(awareness) and yoniso manasikara (wise attention) as taught to young Rahula, there is no concern about any Ultimate Goal. One step at a time. Kom wrote before in a post picked up by Nina: “We may not be able to find out for ourselves if the path that we are on leads to enlightenment or nibbana or not, but we can know, little by little, if we begin to understand more about nama and rupa, and if this leads to more attachment.” ..... Kom, I also appreciate all your reminders on anumodhana (appreciation of others’ good deeds). When we express this intention, I believe it’s similar to the expression of mudita (sympathetic joy), when we rejoice in another’s good fortune. I have always learnt a lot about both these qualities from my Thai and Sri lankan friends or those who have lived in these countries. You wrote: “In Thailand there's a tradition, when someone explains the Buddha's teachings / repeats the Buddha's teachings, we can rejoice in the person's good deed [have you even run into those who said Sathu after a sermon, for example?]. However, if we happen to be forgetful and don't rejoice after seeing such deed, when we hear other people's anumoddhana, we can then remember to also anumoddhana for the person's good deed.” ..... Betty and you also wrote very helpful reminders on this quality before http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12887 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12884 In “Perfections Ch 7, Patience, no 19”, we also read more about avarice or stinginess with regard to dwelling, family, gain, praise and finally to the Dhamma as well, if a person doesn’t wish to explain the theory to someone else. These reminders of machariya (avarice or stinginess) were useful for me to reflect on. Perhaps I hadn’t considered the connection between impatience and avarice. Or we may only think of stinginess with regard to material possessions but not with regard to praise and gain or explaining dhamma. When there is this qualitiy present there cannot be any mudita (sympathetic joy) or ‘anumodhana’ for another’s good deeds. In other words, when there is impatience and avarice, it is again the ‘self-interest’ that Q.Mallika and K.Pasenadi were referring to that are foremost in our minds. Further we read “For someone who is impatient there is much harm, because he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala. Someone else cannot harm that person, only his own defilements are the cause of harm for him....”. ..... I believe we can test out these Teachings right now, ‘in front of our nose’. We can test out the harm from the impatience and avarice and the lightness and tranquillity which accompanies moments of mudita and gladness for another’s praise or good fortune. As Mike put so wisely: “I think most akusala is ‘perfectly natural’ and learning to see the danger in it (especially in lobha) is rather un-natural. Naturally, people like to think that their everyday pleasures and attachments are harmless, but this is not borne out by my (obviously very limited) understanding of Buddhadhamma.” ..... Mike, I don’t think you’re missing anything here at all. On the contrary, I especially appreciate the much-needed reminders from good friends such as yourself. Much of the attachment in a day may be relatively harmless, but I don’t understand that to mean there shouldn’t be a growing understanding of its nature and more and more wise reflection. Sometimes what may have seemed harmless in the past can be seen to be not so harmless with wiser reflection and sati. This doesn’t mean there should be any trying to change one’s accumulations -- that would only be an indication of more clinging to the self -- but the path of understanding and detachment knows more and more precisely what is in front of our nose and has less and less concern for what isn’t apparent as I see it. Nina wrote in another recent post in the Way corner: “It is a long way to really see ourselves as fleeting elements, but this leads to attaching less importance to *ourselves*. Is it worth clinging to what are merely elements? We find it so important how we feel in a day, but we forget that feeling is very momentary, only an element. We attach great importance to praise and blame, but we forget that these are only moments of experiencing an object.” When there is metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha, there is no ‘self-interest’. There is no concern for one’s own praise and blame or other worldly conditions. Likewise, at moments of satipatthana, there is the development of detachment from what is experienced and another step is taken on the most important path of detachment from any idea of self. Ray wrote a very helpful post (no 18143). He stressed the importance of right understanding. I particularly liked the analogy of stepping on a tack which he gave: “It is like a person walking down a sidewalk and sees a tack on the sidewalk. The person does not have to be perfect to walk around the tack, as long as the person has left behind the mistaken view that stepping on the tack is pleasurable, the person will naturally not step on the tack.” Knowing a little more about what is conducive to taking the right steps and appreciating good reminders and deeds of others can be a condition for seeing a little more clearly what is under our nose and not blindly falling off the cliff’s edge like the poor lemmings. Any comments will be welcome. Metta, Sarah ====== 19428 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi all Hi Ken H, --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hello all, > > ` just a short message to say I'm not really posting a message at > this stage. ..... ..And I'm not really posting a response at this stage.... .... >First, I have to catch up on a backlog of dsg emails -- > brought about by my attending to other (lesser), commitments and > computer problems. > > The quality of recent discussions has been superb even by dsg > standards; little wonder that lurkers and semi-lurkers like me are > happy just to read them. .... Always good to hear from you and for the encouragement to all the posters. Perhaps we should periodically have an "all-change" and swap places for a while;-) ..... >For various reasons, taking part doesn't > come easily but I must show the flag occasionally, if only out of > courtesy and appreciation. .... I certainly won't discourage this....just an occasional 'touch base' post from lurkers is always good to read. .... > Mike, it's great to see you back. I should learn from your first > message to NEO Swee Boon -- one word! I can do that! ..... Well, one word is a start....as Kom pointed out, a few more are even better;-) Look forward to more from the Down Under gang. I hope all those with computer problems get them fixed (Larry, hope you're getting the hang of yours....does it mean you'll be able to cope with longer messages and inserts now??) Metta, Sarah ====== 19429 From: Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Ken - Rather than reply to your post point by point, let me make a few statements that I hope will clarify the entire matter. First, recall that I approach all this as a phenomenalist. By an "existent" (for lack of a less loaded term), I mean an object of experience or the potential for such. I do not posit entities beyond experience, though, of course, I cannot rule out the existence of unknowable things. In particular, I do not see the following things, for example, as things which arise "in the world" as opposed to arising as mere objects of consciousness: Sensations of warmth and cold, hardness, softness, sights, sounds, tastes, fears, joy, intentions, etc. The things apparently "in the world" like trees, people, houses, tabletops, etc - that is, the things which actually seem to exist independent of consciousness and to which we attribute the directly apprehended hardness, and redness, and warmth etc as "characteristics" - are, in fact, mere pa~n~natti. Hardness and the knowing of hardness arise together. The only other sense in which hardness may exist is as a potential for experience, which is to say that certain conditions have already arisen guaranteeing that should certain further conditions arise, then there will also arise an experincing of hardness. There is no way that I consider hardness, per se, as a thing independent of experiencing, and existing "out there" - I see that view as a strange form of disembodied Platonism to which the ordinary, commonsense view of a truly existing world of conventional objects (trees and cars and tabletops) would be preferable. This is my way of seeing matters. I neither insist upon it nor do I wish to proselytize for it. I don't criticize others for not adopting it - I never raise that issue. It is other people who raise the issue with me. Debating this view vs alternative views of, for example, pluralistic realism, or materialism, or a variety of forms of dualism strikes me as rather fruitless. Things actually are however they are. None of us, in fact, knows what that is. Each of us, as Buddhists, adopts a position which makes the Dhamma as understandable as possible to him/her. The importance, the central theme, of the Dhamma, is dukkha and its end - all else is secondary. So long as we don't presume that our position is certainly right and all others wrong, but treat one's position merely as a tentative perspective, I think we are staying on the safe side of things. With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/5/03 2:21:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hello Howard, > > Don't let me interrupt this interesting discussion but I'd like to > get the issues clear in my mind. Jon made a couple of points which I > thought were important and I'd like to know whether you accept his > reasonings and, if not, what your reasonings are. Sorry in advance, > if I have misread things. > > A point you originally made was: > ----------- > >>>A subject-object experiential event, for example an act of > seeing, is, to my mind a single event with two polar aspects ... The > entire event is a seeing-seen unity ...>>> > ----------- > > to which Jon replied, in part; > --------------- > >>The fact that the 2 phenomena that you mention as 'polar aspects' > are to an extent mutually dependent for that precise moment does not > detract from the fact that they are discrete and that they arise due > to wholly different conditions. >> > -------------- > > That they have `wholly different conditions' is something that hadn't > particularly occurred to me until now. Jon added; "Btw, the mutual > dependence spoken of here is mutual dependence as object of > experience at that moment, not in the sense of arising in the world." > (end quote) > > I'm not sure if you took these points into account when you replied: > ------------------------------------------------- > >They only "exist" at that moment, and one does not arise without > the other. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > I don't see why the co-arising of two phenomena should make them > essentially one. May I ask you, do you agree that each of the two is > dependent on wholly different conditions? > > The other point Jon made, that I would like to get your opinion on, > was: > ---------- > >>The 'unity' created is not a unity in the > absolute/ultimate/fundamental sense of having its own individual > essence or characteristic (sabhava). >> > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Your reply was: > -------------- > >Their mutual dependence is part of what makes each of them empty. > > ------------------ > > Are we to infer that you take a different view of the teaching of > sabhava? Do you regard the terms,`emptiness' and `essence,' as being > mutually exclusive? > > Sorry to keep harping on about this -- I think I have asked you the > same question before -- but it's a lot easier to follow a discussion > if one knows what the participants are accepting as common ground. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19430 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:33am Subject: (2)4.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, After Permanent and Flexible ministers(cetasikas) have been described,here destructive ministers will be delineated.They destroy the place they home. 1.Moha He is the leader for all Akusala cetasikas.It is also called ''Avijja'' that is the opposite of ''Vijja''(Panna).All the destructive minds are led by him.It veils the real things and the truth.So,Satta with it will never see real Dhamma.Instead it leads to all the destructive actions.It veils Citta not to see the truth. 2.Ahirika(shamelessness) It makes Citta shameless.So,citta will do everything regardless of glory.All the bad things can be done by shamelessness.There is no inhibition to do things bad in the absence of shame. 3.Anottappa(fearlessness) It makes citta dare do everthing.There will be no inhibition to do bad things in the absence of fear. 4.Uddicca(deconcentration) it makes citta wandering round from a sense to another successively and causes poor concentration.Wandering mind easily slips into Akusala actions. 5.Lobha(Tanha) It is strong desire or craving for things.Lobha has many different names like Lobha,Tanha,Raga,Upadana and so on.It makes Citta very greedy.It expands Sansara. 6.Ditthi(wrong view) It makes citta misinterprets the things.Under the influence of wrong view every bad thing may be done. 7.Mana(conceit) It makes citta proud and citta will behaves himself as self and self- referenced and self-orientated.Citta with Mana will think that he should be the topmost.If things are different,destructive mind will appear. 8.Dosa(anger) It makes citta angry,furious and changes suddenly to an aggressive one.Citta accompanied by Dosa is quite apparent and makes Sampayutta- rupas ugly. 9.Issa(jealousy) It makes citta jealous and leads to destructive actions. 10.Macchariya(stinginess) It makes citta not to share its own properties with others. 11.Kukkucca(repant) This is an ineffective mental factor as it makes citta thinks back what have not been done for Kusala-kamma and what have been done for Akusala-kamma. 12.Thina It makes citta less active. 13.Middha It makes cetasikas less active,so less active cetasikas help little to citta. 14.Vicikicca(suspicion) It makes citta suspicious to rely on The Dhamma. These 14 Cetasikas are happening daily in all areas.As they arise,they lead to destructive actions.If one can control these cetasikas well,he will be in peace. May you all be in peace by eradicating/derooting these akusala- cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19431 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: Right Concentration Hi RobertK, > The development of samatha is profound and difficult but that of > vipassana is more profound. If one genuinely believes they have > the accumulations to master jhana then great, but not all of us > do, it is good to understand this moment as it really is right > now, not try to change it to what we wish it to be. Thank you for posting the sutta on Cunda. I agree that the attaining of jhanas is not necessary for Enlightenment. But surely, even if our vehicle is by insight alone, don't we also need Right Concentration? How is Right Concentration then developed in the dry insight-worker? We have two types of concentration that helps us in Unbinding in Anguttara Nikaya IV.41. This sutta makes it clear that we must practise the last type of concentration for Unbinding to occur. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html. (Note: the last two types.) And the Buddha said that Right Concentration is: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors -- right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness -- is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html My question is: To what extent is concentration of the last two types developed such that there is "singleness of mind"? I find that the answer to this question lies in momentary concentration as the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw taught. I quote from Jonothan Abbott in: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3539 For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with FULL ABSORPTION, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. Access concentration always precede absorption concentration. If we do not even have access concentration in the first place, how can we attain full absorption concentration of the path and fruition cittas? I quote from ADL Chapter 21: http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid21.html At the moment the 'counterpart sign' arises, there is a higher degree of calm and concentration is more developed. This stage is called 'access concentration' (upacara samadhi). The citta is not jhanacitta, it is still kamavacara citta (of the sense-sphere), but the hindrances do not arise at the moment of 'access concentration'. The purpose of attaining 'access concentration' is to suppress the hindrances. If the (five) hindrances are not suppressed, the path and fruition cittas can never arise. If we do not have access concentration that precedes the absorption concentration (as we do not develop the jhanas), then what access concentration do we have? Venerable Henepola states that: The Sayadaw holds that this momentary concentration claims the place of purification of mind in the dry insight-worker's course of development. He states that though it "has only momentary duration, its power of resistance to being overwhelmed by opposition corresponds to that of access concentration." Don't you think that by just relying on insight alone without practising concentration is just like missing a piece of the jigsaw puzzle? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19432 From: bodhi342 Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 2:16pm Subject: Parameters Dear All, The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Kom wrote on another thread "The Buddha's dhamma is truly beautiful, unlike all other teachings, as it is ultimately undeniable (because it has its own characterisitics) and unchangeable. The ultimate proof of the Buddha's teachings is right in front of our nose, at every moment." May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other teachings? Do they address complimentary but somewhat separate issues, or are they just wrong? Implicit in this is whether the Buddha's teachings illuminate one aspect of reality, or the whole of reality? If it is the latter, how does that conform to his declaration above? metta, dharam 19433 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parameters Dear Dharam, Interesting questions! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:16 PM Subject: [dsg] Parameters > May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other > teachings? I don't know of any other teachings that address the four noble truths (or two, as above). It's my guarded opinion that these are unique to Buddhadhamma. > Do they address complimentary but somewhat separate issues, or are > they just wrong? Personally, I don't find religions or philosophies either complimentary to Buddhadhamma or 'wrong' per se (well, some seem wrong to me in various ways). However, I haven't found one that I think is relevant to the four noble truths. > Implicit in this is whether the Buddha's teachings illuminate one > aspect of reality, or the whole of reality? I'm not sure I'd call the four noble truths one aspect of reality; still I think the former rather than the latter: "Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them." Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > If it is the latter, > how does that conform to his declaration above? I think this finally gets into the meaning of 'reality'. A big can of worms, as can be seen in the archives...! mike 19434 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: Right Concentration Hi Swee Boon, Right concentration is defined in terms of jhana You might have come across these pages in ATI: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/jhana.html Regards, Victor 19435 From: ajahn_paul Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:07pm Subject: For Momo was (Re: Photo of Rusty) Christine, had been to china for few days, just got ur message today.... thanksfor the poem! as a buddhist, we should know very well that lives or anything in the material world cant escape from the 4 steps.... but,,, theory is easy to [speak]..... anyway, thanks for ur message! ^^ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello Paul, > > Yes, Rusty is my dog. I'm sorry to hear that Momo is not with you > anymore. It is sad when a loved dog has to leave us. May there > have been a fortunate rebirth. Here is a poem for you Paul. It is > written from a Christian perspective, but it is written by someone > who has had a close relationship with a dog. > > metta, > Christine > > 'Just my dog' by Gene Hill > "He is my other eyes that can see above the clouds; > my other ears that hear above the winds. > He is the part of me that can reach out into the sea. He has told me > a thousand times over that I am his reason for being: > by the way he rests against my leg; > by the way he thumps his tail at my smallest smile; > by the way he shows his hurt when I leave without taking him. > (I think it makes him sick with worry when he is not along to care > for me.) > > When I am wrong, he is delighted to forgive. > When I am angry, he clowns to make me smile. > When I am happy, he is joy unbounded. > > When I am a fool, he ignores it. > When I succeed, he brags. > > Without him, I am only another man. With him, I am all-powerful. > > He is loyalty itself. He has taught me the meaning of devotion. > > With him, I know a secret comfort and a private peace. > He has brought me understanding where before I was ignorant. > > His head on my knee can heal my human hurts. > His presence by my side is protection against my fears of dark and > unknown things. > > He has promised to wait for me ... whenever ... wherever-- in case I > need him. And I expect I will -- as I always have." > 19436 From: a_doc99 Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:47pm Subject: Where is the mind? I did read a Thai Buddhist book long time ago. It said that the mind is at some place (I forget) in brain and is connected to 5 senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) at that place. Is there anyone know more about this? Please let me know. Have a nice day, A www.wakeupsmart.com 19437 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 9:44pm Subject: What would be a good rebirth? Hi everyone, I just read something second-hand which included the wish for a good rebirth. Which got me thinking, are there objective qualities that would designate a good rebirth, or is it personal whim only? There is probably a general understanding that no rebirth should be considered ideal, but is that what people really aspire to? (Nina wrote along these lines recently.) Do people ever wish each other no rebirth? If all existence is dukkha, are there grades of dukkha in different planes of existence, so that being a deva is somehow less dukkhic (nice word) than being a flea? To me it sounds a little harsh, but it seems Buddhistically correct so here goes May you all not get reborn anymore real soon now. Herman 19438 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:01pm Subject: another lurker Want to pop out of lurk mode long enough to say anumodana with everyone studying here before I dive back into the archive cd. Thank you all for making that possible. Just got home from my weekly meditation group where Mary was talking about a plant she has that is getting ready to bloom for the 2nd time in ten years. It's called a snake palm most of the time, but when it blooms, she says it is quite deserving of it's other name, rotting corpse. To hear her describe it, it's very beautiful otherwise. peace, connie 19439 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi Sarah, Thanks for your encouragement on the lurking issue (yet again). Several weeks ago, I promised to report back on the `virati' reading material you had thoughtfully provided. I don't have any startling conclusions, just the usual, creeping comprehension. My aim was to understand why you were so unimpressed by outward displays of right livelihood. I could see how a person sitting crossed legged, smiling beautifully, was not necessarily without lobha, dosa and moha; but to see that a person weilding a pig-sticker might possibly be entertaining moments of harmlessness and right understanding, was a test of my conviction. It's all the same thing, of course -- reality is not the stories we project, it's the single, present, fleeting moment of nama and rupa. How easy it is to forget this, and how good it is to remember. Kind regards, Ken H 19440 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 10:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi Howard, Thanks for the elucidation. In theory, I have absolutely no objection to your `phenomenalist' approach. In practice, I probably want everyone to be just like me :-) To tell a person to throw out one approach and take up another, would be to assume a self who can do those things. (unless one were purely describing a scenario, of course) Accepting that we have no ultimate control over these things, I wonder what would be the ideal approach to Dhamma study. A purely academic one would seem to have a lot going for it. Wouldn't it be good if we could digest all the technical explanations without worrying, "do I agree with this; can this be absorbed into my own theories?" But that's not how it works; we are what we are and we have the approach that we have. The journey is all about knowing the way things are. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > Rather than reply to your post point by point, let me make a few > statements that I hope will clarify the entire matter. > First, recall that I approach all this as a phenomenalist. By an 19441 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Parameters Hi Dharam, I’ve been greatly appreciating your posts and wise reflections. --- "bodhi342 " wrote: > Dear All, > > The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of > suffering." > May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other > teachings? ..... I think that the more that is understood about the meaning of ‘suffering’as taught by the Buddha, the more easily your question will be answered;-) As you have already gathered, dukkha does not just refer to what we conventionally take to be suffering or stress. Only by clearly understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, as khandhas and as elements, can dukkha really be understood as taught by the Buddha. I was also taking another look at the Upanisa Sutta (SN, 11,Nidanavagga, vol1, p.553 Bodhi transl). I find this more helpful in the text as there is just the sutta with the helpful commentary notes at the back. Less confusing for me. There is an interesting commentary note on the meaning of ‘upanisa’- sa-upanisaa.....”with cause, with condition”. ‘the cause is called the proximate cause because the effect rests upon it.” So we read about the various proximate causes and I think that understanding about conditions and causes helps us to know more about the conditionality of phenomena that arise and pass away accordingly. No self involved to cause anything. We read from the commentary note that in this context of dependent origination, wherein suffering is given as the proximate cause of faith: “Suffering is the suffering of the round (va.t.ta -dukkha). Faith is repeatedly arising faith (aparaapara.m uppajjanasaddhaa; that is tentative faith, not the unwavering faith of a noble disciple)”. The vatta dukkha (round of suffering) refers to the 3 rounds of kamma-vatta (round of kamma), kilesa vatta (round of defilements) and vipaka vatta (round of results). We can see that all the various links of paticca samuppada are included in these rounds. In useful Posts, under ‘Rounds’, and ‘Dependent Origination’ Rob K has written a few posts which explain in more detail: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts At the beginning of the Upanisa sutta we read: “The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs.” In other words, in order to understand the meaning of suffering or to understand the 3 rounds, all these realities (“....”) have to be known and clearly distinguished. This is the way that faith/confidence (saddha) will grow. If there is no knowing (directly with panna) that seeing or hearing consciousness are vipaka vatta, quite different from ignorance or craving which are kilesa vatta, then it is impossible for higher levels of wisdom which really penetrate the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of realities to develop. We can see that all realities depend on various conditions and the wisdom that knows this is the second stage of insight. You ask about other teachings and I noticed in one or two of your posts you gave some neat quotes from other teachings, such as one which related to the worldly conditions and consideration of pain and pleasure as the same. This is why we have to investigate deeper and deeper, I think. Sometimes teachings may seem alike, but when we investigate what the real meanings of words like suffering or conditions or ultimate realities are, we may find that only in Buddhism do we really have a chance to understand about the tri-lakkhana of all conditioned realities. On another topic, I really liked some of your comments about watching out for signals of delusion and needing to have attention “directed towards the truth about “........”. All other endeavour is likely relatively futile......”. Dharam, these are very wise words and with them you’ll be finding all your own answers, I know. As you also said, “Dhamma shows a wise way forward.” I would say all your questions are very deep - not at all basic. You said you are “just another seeker of the ultimate reality”. Such seekers are not common;-) You mentioned in that post (no 19051 to me, I now note) that Anatta...”is the ultimate truth about sentient beings.” I know that you appreciate that ‘sentient beings’ are concepts and that anatta is one of the characteristics of all ultimate phenomena or realities, i.e of all namas and rupas. I just wished to clarify, though I’m sure it was just a use of language. Finally, I’d also like to say that I liked your use of cancer analogies and I appreciate the comments such as these for many personal as well as dhamma reasons: “there is sublimation of the cells by the body itself. The cancer cells have played their part as pointers to imbalance. The ‘cure’ is addressing the underlying problem - much better than killing.....”. Let me finish with waht I thought was a really “excellent;-)” response from TG: “Generally you have a good point in that dukkha is the source of our becoming aware that there is a problem and the impetus for finding a remedy. But dukkha is not the therapy or medicine. The therapy or medicince are the states that oppose dukkha. Just as cancer is not the therapy or medicine for cancer. The therapy or medicine are the things that fight cancer. One would not want to say that getting cancer is beneficial because it allows one awareness to fight cancer...anymore than one would want to say that dukkha is beneficial because it allows one awareness to fight dukkha.” Look forward to more of your and TG’s posts on dukkha. Metta, Sarah ====== 19442 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 0:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor.......lawyer, used car salesman Hi Ken H, This is an old, familiar thread;-) --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > Hi Sarah, ..... > My aim was to understand why you were so unimpressed by outward > displays of right livelihood. I could see how a person sitting > crossed legged, smiling beautifully, was not necessarily without > lobha, dosa and moha; but to see that a person weilding a pig-sticker > might possibly be entertaining moments of harmlessness and right > understanding, was a test of my conviction. > > It's all the same thing, of course -- reality is not the stories we > project, it's the single, present, fleeting moment of nama and rupa. > How easy it is to forget this, and how good it is to remember. .... Yes, I wouldn’t say that we couldn’t come to some accurate conclusions about the ‘person wielding a pig-sticker’(!), but I think we can see for ourselves how little our kilesa depend on a particular situation and how much they depend on the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha which have a knack of following us around regardless of lifestyle and livelihood. We never know what defilements will arise or when there will be wise reflections. I mentioned in a recent post to a new member from Israel that when I spent a couple of summers working on a kibbutz in Israel I remember reading and re-reading a book on religions, especially the chapter on Buddhism which made me determined to head for India when I finished university. Well, one job I had there was that of ‘toilet-cleaner’ for all the public toilets! Everyone felt sorry for me and thought I was noble to volunteer, but I liked it because I could race around, work on my own and reflect on religions, finishing work before anyone else and then quietly reading;-) It proved to be an opportunity for a lot of ‘right livelihood’ for me at the time. With regard to judging others, I gave a link to a post of Kom’s yesterday, but I don’t think it was the one I had in mind on anumodhana. Anyway, in it he wrote: “When we hardly know our own akusala, it is useless (from the dhamma perspective) and probably impossible to know others'. It is better to know our akusala really well first.” Also,he wrote: “we should be compassionate toward people with akusala, because akusala only rises conditioned by ignorance, and deeds and words motivated by akusala only bring bad results. If we can, we should do what we can to help the person to see the fault of akusala. If we cannot, then we know that there are no conditions for akusala to be interrupted. Ultimately, realities rule.” ..... As you kindly remind me back: K:>reality is not the stories we > project, it's the single, present, fleeting moment of nama and rupa. > How easy it is to forget this, and how good it is to remember. ..... ...and even if we find ourselves wielding a stick, there are these same namas and rupas and opportunities for awareness or abstention from wrong livelihood. Glad you came back on this thread. Metta, Sarah ====== 19443 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: Parameters --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi342 " wrote: > > May I ask what is the general feeling (or understanding) about other > teachings? > > Do they address complimentary but somewhat separate issues, or are > they just wrong? > Implicit in this is whether the Buddha's teachings illuminate one > aspect of reality, or the whole of reality? If it is the latter, > how does that conform to his declaration above? > ____________ Dear Dharam, Christine wrote a while back: "Majjhima Nikaya Suttas: MN11 Culasinhanada Sutta 'The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar' The Buddha compares his teaching point by point with those of other recluses and brahmins and shows that beneath their apparent similaritiies, they finally diverge on just this one crucial point - the rejection of view of self - which undermines the agreements." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/011-culasihanada-sutta-e1.htm RobertK 19444 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parameters Dear Dharam and RobK, --- "rjkjp1 " wrote: > > Dear Dharam, > Christine wrote a while back: "Majjhima Nikaya Suttas: > MN11 Culasinhanada Sutta 'The Shorter Discourse on the Lion's Roar' > The Buddha compares his teaching point by point with those of other > recluses and brahmins and shows that beneath their apparent > similaritiies, they finally diverge on just this one crucial point - > the rejection of view of self - which undermines the agreements." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/011-culasihanada-sutta-e1.htm > RobertK ..... Let me add the passage from this Abhidhamma commentary which has been quoted before as well: From: The Dispeller of Delusion (Sammohavinodani),Classification of Bases, 242f: "The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Englightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened ones. For such wanderers and ascetics (taapasa) as the master Sarabhanga are mighty and powerful and are able to express "the impermanent and painful": (but) they are unable to express "no-self". For if they were able to express "no-self" in a present assembly there would be penetration of path and fruition in the present assembly. For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious. That is why the Master, when teaching the characteristic of no-self, taught it by means of impermanence or by means of pain or by means of both impermanence and pain. But here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain. But it is owing to not keeping what in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear?. Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati). The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha). The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness. But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When the postures are exposed (ugghaa.tita) by keeping in mind continual oppression, the characteristic of pain appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibboga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. And here the following difference should be understood: impermanence and the characteristic of impermanence, pain and the characteristic of pain, no-self and the characteristic of no-self. Herein, the five aggregates (pa~ncakhandha) are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or because of their absence after having been. Rise and fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words "what is impermanent is painful" (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. the mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. But those five aggregates are no-self because of the words "what is painful is no-self" (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 19445 From: Sarah Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] another lurker Hi Connie and our 'other new friend', Welcome to DSG and I hope you find it useful here. Pls ask lots of questions or give lots of answers;-) --- connie wrote: > Want to pop out of lurk mode long enough to say anumodana with everyone > studying here before I dive back into the archive cd. Thank you all for > making that possible. .... If anyone doesn't understand the reference, this is the cd of the entire archives which Jon mentioned we were happy to send to anyone. It can be used for searches of topics but I have to say, I still use the escribe search which I find much quicker (although it doesn't go right back to the beginning and there are occasional gaps when escribe broke down): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ The c.d is very useful for people who travel like Rob M or for those with limited internet use because it can still be used to read the archives and is probably much easier for scrolling through for this too. If anyone else wants a copy, let Jon know off-list. ..... > Just got home from my weekly meditation group where Mary was talking > about a plant she has that is getting ready to bloom for the 2nd time in > ten years. It's called a snake palm most of the time, but when it > blooms, she says it is quite deserving of it's other name, rotting > corpse. To hear her describe it, it's very beautiful otherwise. .... Sounds like it could be a dilemma whether to specially stay home or go on holiday for the bloom;-) Connie, let us know if there's anything else you need directions to and it's never too late to raise anything on posts from the archives, esp. if it relates to the post of a member who's around and able to discuss further;-) 'Other new friend', I'll let someone else respond to your difficult qus. Perhaps we can say that 'mind' and 'brain' and 'location' are just concepts or ideas we have that don't really exist in Buddhism? What do you think? Can I persuade either of you to tell us a little more about yourselves, like how you became interested in Buddhism, where you live and so on. (We also try to encourage everyone to address someone, even if it's 'All' at the start and sign off with a real name which we can use in reply. Hope that's OK) With metta, Sarah ======= 19446 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:30am Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) Hi Sarah, I am happy you sent this post. I have been puzzled for a long time, years that is, by an observation during meditation. I have been working my way up to asking about it. (Meditational issues seem to be a bit taboo on this site). Anyway, I am feeling courageous right now, and you said the magic word I have been puzzled about, namely "location". I am happy to accept that I just don't get it, but as I said, when I am wordlessly (watching) the coming and going of all sorts of mindstates, one of the attributes of whatever arises and disappears is location. Whether it is heat or pressure or sound or colour, all of these things seem to have a spatial aspect. I would like to read your comments on this, and everyone else's of course. And without wishing to control the comments I get back, I would prefer them to be based on experience.( I once went to an eye specialist, and on explaining my symptoms he said that it was impossible for me to have those symptoms.) I am just simply wondering, does the spatial aspect of whatever arises disappear at a certain stage of whatever it is there are stages of? May you not be reborn Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Perhaps we can say that 'mind' and 'brain' and 'location' are just > concepts or ideas we have that don't really exist in Buddhism? What do you > think? > 19447 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: Where is the mind? Dear Friend, Where the mind is a difficult question to answer if one is trying to explain from scientific point of view. Brain is NOT the mind and mind does not exist in the brain.The brain may be assumed as work place for the mind but not exactly. Mind has many many associated factors.It has the characteristic of knowing of all senses including thoughts and ideas.As it is not a physical one,no one can find it.But its existance can be aware of. Find yourself the mind and if you still have problems please do not hesitate to contact me. With Metta, Htoo Naing ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "a_doc99 " wrote: > I did read a Thai Buddhist book long time ago. It said that the mind is at > some place (I forget) in brain and is connected to 5 senses (eye, ear, > nose, tongue, body) at that place. Is there anyone know more about > this? Please let me know. > Have a nice day, > A > www.wakeupsmart.com Weight Age Gender Female Male 19448 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentariness of dhammas (was, Susima Sutta 2) Swee Boon You make a number of interesting observations about the development of the concentration, including 'momentary' concentration, that accompanies moments of magga citta. I hope you don't mind if I set out some random thoughts. I think it's important to keep in mind that *all dhammas* (except nibbana) are momentary. Thus enlightenment (supramundane path consciousness/magga citta) is momentary as are the mental factors that accompany it. These mental factors are the factors that comprise the Noble Eightfold Path, including especially the 5 that are: wisdom/panna (samma-ditthi), right thinking/vitakka (samma-sangkapa), energy/viriya (samma-vayama), awareness/sati (samma-sati). concentration /ekaggata (samma-samadhi) The development leading to enlightenment is again momentary dhammas, in this case mundane path consciousness (insight/vipassana bhavana/satipatthana) and the mental factors that accompany it. These mental factors are the mundane versions of the 5 Eightfold Path factors just above (including concentration). Considered on a momentary basis like this, it perhaps helps us to understand the significance of the commentary passage (cited by Christine recently) which says that enlightenment is the outcome of vipassana bhavana. Each moment of vipassana bhavana accumulates the factors that will be needed to accompany the magga citta when enlightenment is attained. Samatha bhavana (tranquillity) is also momentary. It too is a citta that is accompanied by the mental factors of wisdom/panna and concentration/ekaggata, but these factors differ in quality from the same factors that accompany vipassana bhavana (insight). Here the panna is of a level that sees the advantage in the tranquillity associated with the absence of kusala, and its goal is the development of that tranquillity to a level where all akusala is totally (but temporarily) subdued. To my understanding, concentration that has been developed in samatha bhavana cannot somehow be 'applied' towards examining realties to understand their true nature; this function can only be performed by the citta that is vipassana bhavana, and this citta is accompanied by the mental factor of concentration that is of the level and quality appropriate to that citta at its present strength. As to how the concentration necessary for the magga citta/supramundane path consciousness can be developed, I believe the answer is that it is developed in the same way as any other quality (wholesome or unwholesome), namely, by its repeated arising (in a weaker form) and gradual accumulation over time. In the case of the concentration that accompanies enlightenment/supramundane path consciousness, this means the repeated arising of insight/mundane path consciousness, which is accompanied by the mundane versions of the Noble Eightfold Path factors, as described in M 117 (and quoted by you in your recent post to Rob K). As regards the references in the texts to Right Concentration in terms of the 4 jhanas, I believe this is meant as a description of the force and function of the concentration that occurs at the moment of supramundane path consciousness. This is explained in the notes to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (CMA) in a passage you also quoted recently and which I set out below. So to summarise, all concentration, like all dhammas, is momentary in nature. The concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path moments, like the other necessary factors of those moments, is developed by the development of vipassana. Happy to discuss further. Jon ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31 [F]or bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > In brief, I am saying that for magga/phala to arise, concentration > (or tranquility) is always needed. It need not be jhana/absorption > concentration or access concentration. But if our vehicle is by > insight and without jhanas, at least momentary concentration is > necessary. ... > And I identify momentary concentration as part of Right > Concentration in one whose vehicle is by insight. If one does not > practice jhana/absorption or access concentration, at least one > must > practice momentary concentration. This is the minimum to fulfill > the > Noble Eight-fold Path factor of Right Concentration. > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19449 From: dearranil2 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart: Attn NEO Swee Boon Dear NEO Swee Boon Applogies for the late reply, > In short, are you saying that the mind is permanent? Everything is changing, so do the mind. > In short, are you saying that an arahant though dead (gone > parinibbana), still had a mind, "Had" or you mean "Have"? Anyway, if it is "had", yes. If it is "Have" no > but that this mind is totally different from non-arahants? When an arahath is living "totally different" Yes/No both. Yes - because he has understood nirvana and no more kamma will get generated. No - because it still is experiencing things just like a non arahaths mind. > In short, are you saying that a dead arahant (gone parinibbana) is > still 'existing' An arahath has gone into pari nibbana. Buddha answered the question in "no" to all combinations about pari nibbana. existing - No not existing - No existing and not existing - No ~with metta ranil 19450 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] What would be a good rebirth? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 2/6/03 12:45:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, > > I just read something second-hand which included the wish for a good > rebirth. Which got me thinking, are there objective qualities that > would designate a good rebirth, or is it personal whim only? > > There is probably a general understanding that no rebirth should be > considered ideal, but is that what people really aspire to? (Nina > wrote along these lines recently.) Do people ever wish each other no > rebirth? > > If all existence is dukkha, are there grades of dukkha in different > planes of existence, so that being a deva is somehow less dukkhic > (nice word) than being a flea? > > To me it sounds a little harsh, but it seems Buddhistically correct > so here goes > > May you all not get reborn anymore real soon now. > > > Herman > ========================== As I see it, when there is no sense of self, then there is no rebirth. A wish for "no rebirth" is, to me, a wish for complete enlightenment. With no sense of self whatsoever (in person or things), all places and all conditions are nibbana. [Recall the story, Theravadin I hope, but perhaps not, of when the Buddha was walking down the road shortly after the Bodhi tree culmination, and he was questioned as to what he was - a human, a deva, etc? And his reply was that no - he was an awakened one. So, while residing in the human realm, yet he was not of that realm - his abiding was a no-abiding.] Generally, from the Buddhist perspective, births into the so-called lower realms (the hell realms, the realm of animals, and the titan or demonic realm) are "bad" births, but even births into heaven realms and formless realms, with much pleasure or ease, and no major suffering, are suboptimal. Only a human birth, one presumably with adequate conditions, is optimal in that it is neither impossibly dreadful or overwhelmingly joyous, and is thus the one realm where Buddhist cultivation is reasonably possible to engage in. (Of course, one can physically reside on planet earth circa 2003 in human form, and, internally, one is an animal or a hell being, belying the human appearance.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19451 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 7:23am Subject: Re: The Language of the Heart: Attn NEO Swee Boon Hi ranil, Thank you for your late response. I have no further inquiries as to your reply. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19452 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Hi, Ken - Sadhu x 3!! (Your post, without further comment by me, is pasted below.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/6/03 1:32:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for the elucidation. > > In theory, I have absolutely no objection to your `phenomenalist' > approach. In practice, I probably want everyone to be just like > me :-) > > To tell a person to throw out one approach and take up another, would > be to assume a self who can do those things. (unless one were purely > describing a scenario, of course) > > Accepting that we have no ultimate control over these things, I > wonder what would be the ideal approach to Dhamma study. A purely > academic one would seem to have a lot going for it. Wouldn't it > be good if we could digest all the technical explanations without > worrying, "do I agree with this; can this be absorbed into my own > theories?" > > But that's not how it works; we are what we are and we have the > approach that we have. The journey is all about knowing the way > things are. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19453 From: nidive Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentariness of dhammas (was, Susima Sutta 2) Hi Jon, > So to summarise, all concentration, like all dhammas, is momentary > in nature. The concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path moments, > like the other necessary factors of those moments, is developed by > the development of vipassana. Agreed. But I also find the teachings of Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw on momentary concentration (khanika-samadhi) very helpful. I think at least this type of concentration is necessary for Enlightenment. Bikkhu Bodhi says in "The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi" Chapter VII: http://www.vipassana.com/resources/8fp7.php The kinds of concentration discussed so far arise by fixing the mind upon a single object to the exclusion of other objects. But apart from these there is another kind of concentration which does not depend upon restricting the range of awareness. This is called "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi). To develop momentary concentration the meditator does not deliberately attempt to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from his field of attention. Instead, he simply directs mindfulness to the changing states of mind and body, noting any phenomenon that presents itself; the task is to maintain a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As he goes on with his noting, concentration becomes stronger moment after moment until it becomes established one-pointedly on the constantly changing stream of events. Despite the change in the object, the mental unification remains steady, and in time acquires a force capable of suppressing the hindrances to a degree equal to that of access concentration. This fluid, mobile concentration is developed by the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness, taken up along the path of insight; when sufficiently strong it issues in the breakthrough to the last stage of the path, the arising of wisdom. I also find this link to one of Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw's sermons very helpful as well: http://www.zip.com.au/~lyallg/mahasi.htm Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19454 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 4 Dhamma Issues, 3, Bodily Intimation, no 4 III: Someone may object to what is explained above by comparing bodily intimation and speech intimation. He may contend that just as there is speech intimation (vací viññatti) when someone who is singing utters sounds, there must also be, in the same way, bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) when the body moves. This objection can be countered by the following argument: when sound originates from citta, the rúpa of speech intimation, vací viññatti, surely arises. However, when the body moves, only the three vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability, may arise, but not the rúpa of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti. In the case of bodily movement, the vikåra rúpas originating from the citta which intends bodily movement are necessary, and their functioning is also dependent on the vikåra rúpas originating from temperature and nutrition. In this way movement of the body can occur. IV: It is stated in the Visuddhimagga, (Description of the Aggregates, Ch XIV, 61, kåya viññatti): ²...this is called Œkåya-viññatti¹ because it is the cause of the intimating (viññåpana) of intention by means of bodily motion, and because also oneself can know this through the body, in other words, through that bodily motion...² This means that citta wishes to express a meaning by means of that rúpa, no matter whether someone else understands it or not. There may also be rúpas originating from the citta which does not intend to convey a meaning, when one moves the body naturally while standing, walking, sitting or lying down. If others think that a meaning is being conveyed, that is due to their own thinking and does not concern the rúpa of bodily intimation. V: We read in the ³Atthasåliní² (Expositor II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, Derived Material Qualities, 323) that there are thirtytwo cittas which produce rúpas that support and strengthen the postures and also the rúpas which are intimation. These cittas are: mind-door adverting-consciousness, manodvåråvajjana citta, twelve akusala cittas, eight mahå-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere), eight mahå-kiriyacittas, smile rpoducing consciousness (of the arahat), hasituppåda citta and two abhiññå cittas (of supranatural power). Therefore, when one only intends to move the body in assuming the different postures, without the wish to convey a meaning, citta is the condition for the arising of groups of rúpa which are not accompanied by intimation, viññatti rúpa. VI: Someone may contend that viññatti rúpa can originate from citta, even if citta has no intention to convey a meaning but someone else can still perceive a certain meaning. However, this should be carefully considered. For example, when somebody is fast asleep, there are bhavangacittas (life-continuum), which can surely not condition the arising of viññatti rúpa. Whether someone else perceives a meaning or not concerns only the citta of that person. 19455 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 46, Comm, Deportment Hi Larry and all, Some passages I could add notes: op 05-02-2003 00:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > [Tika] In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of > materiality through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the > sense of the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of > birth [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. Nina: There are four characteristics inherent in all rupas (here sign is not such a clear tran of lakkhana): integration (first arising), continuity (the arising throughout life), decay and destruction. (later on more in Dhamma Issues). > > [T] For the arising of the materiality-aggregate ignorance, craving, > karma and food are the principal reasons. But these are not all. As it > is said that one sees the arising of the materiality-aggregate when > beholding also the rebirth-sign or the bare origination state called the > integration-succession [upacaya santati] of the various material forms > [rupa] becoming manifest in the conscious flux [saviññanaka > santana], owing to ignorance, craving, karma, and nutriment, and from > consciousness [citta] and the process of caloricity [utu], the knowledge > of arising is fivefold. Nina: Four factors can at this moment produce rupa: kamma, citta, nutriment and caloricity (or temperature). Here are also given other conditions stemming from the past. There is reference to the second stage of vipassana : understanding of conditions. > [T] Similarly the knowledge of passing away or ceasing is fivefold. The > sign of vicissitude or change is the bare state of dissolution [bhanga > sabhava] called impermanency [aniccata]. Nina: this is the fourth characteristic inherent in all rupas. We read again precraving: former craving, and craving throughout life. Past craving conditions our being here now, doing what we are doing now, be it kusala or akusala. Let us profit from the text on the postures. What is "I' at this moment? I sit? No, in reality countless rupas arising in groups, arising because of manyfold, intricate conditions. Rupas which come together just for an extremely short moment and then fall away. We still keep on thinking, I am sitting. As we read in the Co, we are like puppets, citta pulls the strings so that we can move. Where is the living being that could move by its own inner strength, without the conditions being present? Nina 19456 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Abhidhamma Dear friends, A Tibethan saying was mentioned here: our enemy is our best teacher. A long time ago I had a good exchange with an old friend, Eric, about this subject. He is also Tibetan orientated. Of course, really our defilements are our enemy, not another person. But this saying is a good reminder. Being in a contrarious situation helps me to consider what is essential in my life. Suttas quoted here have a special impact on me now, it is as if the Buddha personally talks to me, just fitting for my situation. It is so direct, I find. More than ever I am inspired and motivated to explain what the Abhidhamma is. I also realize more that it is difficult for others to understand what the Abhidhamma really is. Not knowing what the Abhidhamma is can cause a great deal of aversion or even anger. I also understand that people are put off by the story that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma in the Heaven of the Thirtythree to his mother. As for me, I think only of the message this story contains. As to surroundings, heaven, these are conventional terms describing a situation. I do not doubt and I do not wonder whether this was true or not, or how to take it. This is not relevant to me. When in India we visited the place where the Buddha came down from heaven after three months of teaching Abhidhamma, that was in Sankassa. It is not important to me what the exact place was, I thought of his teaching of Abhidhamma and could whole-heartedly pay respect there. The Buddha, when he attained Buddhahood realized the truth of all dhammas. These are contained in the Tipitaka. He gave the nucleus of the Abhidhamma to Sariputta. The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta. I can say more on this, but I shall wait for Sarah. These are external arguments. What matters most to me: what is the message the Buddha taught me. These are the internal arguments. Today there are conditions for me to talk about the Abhidhamma, forgive me. I wrote on the Yahoo Pali list something I shall quote here: The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rupa, and all their intricate conditions. It depends on the listener how much he wants to study, but whatever we study, let us consider it in our life so that it becomes meaningful. Then we can see for ourselves that the Abhidhamma does not consist of dry, scientific, abstract classifications. We should not forget the second Book of the Abhidhamma, the Book of Analysis. Robert K and I have quoted from this:we learn here all the details on conceit, and other akusala dhammas. I can profit from it, so that I shall be less deluded about myself. The Abhidhamma gives us a sense of urgency not to delay kusala, before we know it the destructive ministers are there. We learn about the processes of cittas, how fast after seeing, hearing etc. akusala cittas can arise. We do not even notice them, cittas are so fast. There is a certain fixed order in the processes of cittas, and nobody can change this order. It depends on the accumulated cetasikas and many conditions whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise within a process, and before we know it the process is over, another process again. This can have impact on us personally: to grab that hand across the boundary, not to delay doing this. There are too many gaps between people because of conflicts. We can see that Suttanta and Vinaya also contains Abhidhamma, as I pointed out before. The Buddha speaks about the five khandhas, time and again. What else are these but citta, cetasika and rupa. Mike reminded us that the Upanisa Sutta contains Abhidhamma: the Dependent Origination. And so it is with many other suttas. The Great Elephant's Footprint Discourse gives us many details on rupas, internal and external. If people would only know what the message is that is contained in the Abhidhamma they would have a growing respect and appreciation of it. This I wish with all my heart, Nina. 19457 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: destructive ministers Dear Htoo, Thank you, you managed to depict the destructive ministers with a salient feature, very good. What dirty tricks they play, and they come in disguise, as constructive ministers. We may not recognize them in time. But the Abhidhamma really helps us to know our defilements and their conditions. Anumodana, Nina 19458 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7. Patience,no 23 Perfections, Ch 7. Patience,no 23 The Second Stanza: the words ³sabba-påpassa² (of all evil) mean: of all kinds of akusala. If we know that something is akusala, no matter how slight, we should abstain from it if we are able to do so. We read: The word ³akaranam² means, not causing to arise. The word ³kusalassa² (of kusala) means, of the kusala of the four planes [27] . The word ³upasampadå² means attainment (patilåbho), specific acquisition. The words ³sacitta-pariyodapanam² mean, purification of one¹s citta, and this is through arahatship. Thus, when recluses have eliminated all evil by the restraint of síla and brought kusala to fulfilment by samatha and vipassanå, the citta is purified by the fruition of arahatship (arahatta phala). This is the teaching, the exhortation, the admonition of the Buddhas. All this begins with patience, khanti, which is the highest ascetism. We read futher on: The Third stanza: The word ³anupavådo²(not insulting) means, not insulting anyone by speech. The word ³anupaghåto² (not harming) means, not harming through the body. The word ³påtimokkhe²(according to the påtimokkha) means, it liberates completely, that is, the highest síla; it guards in a supreme way, namely, it guards happy states; it liberates from danger, the danger of an unhappy destination. Or it guards happy states and liberates from unhappy states. Therefore, this síla is called påtimokkha [28]. If someone observes the síla of påtimokkha, he will be liberated from unhappy planes and he can go to happy planes. We read: The word ³mattaññutå², knowing moderation, means, knowing moderation in receiving and eating. The words ³pantañca sayan¹ åsanam², a secluded bed and seat, mean, a bed and seat free from the crowds. It is explained by means of these two requisites [29] that he is contented with the four requisites. The four requisites are dwelling, clothing, food and medicine. We read: The words ³etam Buddhånasåsanam², this is the teaching of the Buddhas, mean, not harming another, restraint according to the Påtimokkha, knowing moderation in receiving and eating, living in a secluded place, because he is a person who is skilfull in the eight attainments [30]. This is the teaching, the exhortation, the admonition of the Buddhas. Footnote: 27. Kusala of the four planes of citta: of the sensuous plane, kåmåvacara, kusala of the level of rúpa-jhana, of arúpa-jhana and kusala which is supramundane, lokuttara. 28. Påti means to guard or protect, and mokkheti means to liberate. 29. The requisites of food and dwelling place have been mentioned here. 30.The attainment of the stages of rúpajhåna and of arúpajhåna. 19459 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi Nina and all, The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." > cetasika and rupa, or in other words, five khandhas, that is the same. This is a straight-out self-view. Regards, Victor 19460 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/6/03 2:45:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Nina and all, > > The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be > seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not > mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." > > > > citta, > >cetasika and rupa, or in other words, five khandhas, that is the > same. > > > > This is a straight-out self-view. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: If what Nina meant by that is that there is a self, but all that it is is citta, cetasika, and rupa, then I would agree 100%. But if, as I believe, Nina meant that what is erroneously taken to be a self (or ourself) is merely citta, cetasika, and rupa, then I would consider the statement to be an affirmation of anatta. ------------------------------------------------- > > > Regards, > Victor > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19461 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 1:15pm Subject: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Dear Group, Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the Buddha that I find quite disturbing: "Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the venerable Ananda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come he made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So seated the venerable Ananda said thus to the Exalted One. "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign* country ?" "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) CF: Is it not somewhat 'surprising' that, given this opportunity by the Ven. Ananda, the Buddha didn't choose to talk about the oppressive structure of a society that did not educate girls, and did not employ women in activities outside the home, but chose instead to describe women as angry, envious, greedy and with little wisdom? A simple 'that's the way this society is Ananda, boys are brought up differently to girls' would have sufficed. None of the women I know could be described as epitomising these bad qualities. Though all would experience the emotions occasionally, as do all men. (And I know many women who run their own businesses, are magistrates and members of parliament, and, of my close acquaintances there are none that have not travelled to foreign countries.) -------------------------------- And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) CF: Surprising to describe one person in such a way, let alone to then generalise and speak of a 'just a woman's wit', as if such a thing came in a 'female package'. ------------------------------- and this, 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) CF: Another chance not taken to show some understanding of societal pressures and structures limiting the horizon of women? Instead, a limiting pronouncement is made. -------------------------------- and this, "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) CF: There is nothing that can be said, other than this is a very sad to read. ------------------------------ and this, with no citation, "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the two things." CF: Again, sad. ------------------------------- and this, Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we to do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the Buddha II. Paribibbana Sutta) --------------------------------- metta, Christine 19462 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:22pm Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > > I am happy to accept that I just don't get it, but as I said, when I > am wordlessly (watching) the coming and going of all sorts of > mindstates, one of the attributes of whatever arises and disappears > is location. Whether it is heat or pressure or sound or colour, all > of these things seem to have a spatial aspect. I would like to read > your comments on this, and everyone else's of course. And without > wishing to control the comments I get back, I would prefer them to be > based on experience.( I once went to an eye specialist, and on > explaining my symptoms he said that it was impossible for me to have > those symptoms.) I am just simply wondering, does the spatial aspect > of whatever arises disappear at a certain stage of whatever it is > there are stages of? ----------------- Dear Herman, I think this is an important question which delves into the difference between concept and reality. At the moment of the actual experience of a dhamma such as pressure or sound there is no concept of location - this can be proven each for oneself- but immediately after, so fast, there are concepts(with or without thinking in words) that 'locate' the pressure or sound or feeling etc. The difference between the conceptual process and the moment of experience can be known too. http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryFeelings.htm#* It is said that an Elder of Cittala Hill was sick, turning over from side to side, again and again, and groaning with great pain. To him a young bhikkhu said: "Venerable Sir, which part of your body is painful?" -- "A specially painful place, indeed, there is not; as a result of taking certain things (such as forms, sounds etc.) for object there is the experiencing of painful feeling," replied the Elder. " endquote * see below for rest of story. > >Herman: "May you not be reborn". This is a nice wish, Herman, and one I guess we all have. Good to wish such a high state for others. Still, while ignorance of the true nature of nama and rupa is still present, as it is now, then rebirth must occur. "In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants." Mahasatipatthana sutta. RobertK **"Venerable Sir, from the time one knows that, is not bearing up (enduring) befitting?" said the young bhikkhu. "I am bearing up, friend," said the Elder. "Bearing up is excellent, Venerable Sir," said the young bhikkhu. The Elder bore up. Thereafter, the aerial humour caused injury right up to the heart. His intestines protruded out and lay in a heap on the bed. The Elder pointed that out to the young bhikkhu and said: "Friend, is bearing up so far befitting?" The young bhikkhu remained silent. The Elder, having applied concentration with energy, attained arahantship with Analytical Knowledge and passed away into the final peace of Nibbana, in the state of consciousness immediately after the course of reflection on the fruit of arahantship, thus realizing the highest and passing away nearly at the same time. " > Herman > 19463 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:33pm Subject: Way 47, Comm, Clear Comprehension "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprerhension, p. 60 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension 1. Clear comprehension in going forwards and backwards. After explaining body-contemplation in the form of the meditation on the four modes of deportment, the Master said, "And further," to explain body-contemplation by way of the four kinds of clear comprehension [catu sampajañña]. [Tika] One who is clearly comprehending [sampajano] is one who knows according to every way, intensively, or (item by item) in a detailed way [samantato pakarehi pakattham va savisesam janati]. Clear comprehension [sampajaññam] is the state of that one. It is likewise the knowledge of that one [tassa bhavo sampajaññam. Tatha pavatta ñanam]. Abhikkante patikkante = "In going forwards (and) in going backwards." Here, the meaning is as follows: -- Going forwards is called going. Going backwards is called turning back. Both these are to be found in all the four modes of deportment. [Tika] Going, here, is going after turning back (returning) and going after not turning back (going straight). Turning back is the bare fact of turning back. This dyad is only mutually supported action [gamanañcettha nivattetva anivatteva ca gamanam. Nivattanam pana nivatti mattameva. Aññamaññamupadana kriya mattañ-cetam dvatayam]. First, in going, carrying the body to a position in front -- bringing the body along -- is called going forwards. Turning back -- returning thence -- is called turning back. And in standing, one just standing and bending the body to a position in front does what is called going forwards, and one bending away behind -- drawing back -- does what is called going backwards. In sitting down, one sitting and moving on -- creeping on, sliding on -- to front portion comprising the frame and so forth of the seat, i.e., chair, stool or similar thing, does going forwards; and one moving away -- sliding back -- to the parts comprising the frame and so forth at the back of the chair or stool does what is called turning back. In lying down too the explanation is to be done according to the method stated above. 19464 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:52pm Subject: Christine, negative about women Dear Christine, when we monks study the sutras, this is one of the first ones we read. This days we do not talk much because the way that equal women rights are about. For examples, when I was not allowed to keep my three female Bulldogs I asked why, I was thinking that they will answer that the reason was that a monk should not have possessions. Well I was wrong, the reason was that they are females and they bleed, and they are impure. How studid. I left that Temple and moved to Canberra where I have my own temple with my three beautiful bulldogs, Olivia, Perla and Alicia. Metta . Ven. Yanatharo 19465 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:42pm Subject: re: another lurker Hi, Sarah, It would seem I've always stumbled into and away from 'Buddhism' through a lot of dumb luck and misunderstanding. The last time would be about three years ago, when I started chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo... without the drums! The words aren't really nonsense, btw... or maybe they are... depends on one's point of view even after they're translated / explained. Not being defensive here, just laughing with you. Not too long ago, the words 'sabbe dhamma anatta' just to pick a few, were nonsense to me. Come to think of it, 'living in the past' just took on new meaning to me yesterday when I was thinking about how I live in a world of concepts and don't realize that the things I'm still taking for real are already gone, leaving me to my daydreams and sleepwalking. It's not like I hadn't read it 1000 times before, just that it clicked a little better. Don't remember what I was reading about when I first came across the word 'abhidhamma' a year or so ago, but that has been my biggest interest ever since. I like to think that this is the Buddhism I read about at 14 that was so far over my head, but inspired me to take refuge... thinking I was the only Buddhist in Alaska at the time. Before that, Buddhism was a children's book of stories from one of the Mahayana sutras (Lotus) that I read when I was 7. I still don't understand all of those. I'm a reader, but not an intellectual. I am pretty good at reading things my own way and taking that for truth and rather slow at figuring out I'm wrong. As to this particular list, I have to thank Betty for suggesting that I join. I've lived in Omak, Washington USA now for a little over 2 years. A couple of Christian preachers told me about the Buddhist meditation group in town here after they stopped by to welcome Mom and I to town and invite us to church. As a rule, I'm pretty quiet, but abhidhamma might be something I can learn to talk about. Hope that's a better introduction for you. peace, connie 19466 From: a_doc99 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:44pm Subject: Re: Where is the mind? Dear Htoo Naing, Thank you for your explanation and signing the guessbook at my website www.wakeupsmart.com NOw I'm interesting in "where is the mind?" because American scientists try to find connection between mind and body. JUst a few weeks ago, Time magazine of Jan 20, 2003 (Or you can go http://www.time.com/time/magazine/0,9263,1101030120,00.html ) had special issue about Mind and Body. Me as a born Buddhist from Thailand. I remember I did read a Buddhist book that mentiond the exact locantion of mind (a specific place in brain) and the way that mind connects to other 5 senses. So I want to know more and post in this group the question. Also just a few day I went to http://origin.dailynews.lk/2002/08/21/fea09.html It said mind is at the limbic system, which the Buddha has referred to as the mind organ. I still try to find more info about where the mind is, especially what the Buddha really taught. Maybe I will find in Abhidhamma Pitaka. Anyone knows more about this, please let me know. Thank you A (my nick name) www.wakeupsmart.com > Dear Friend, > > Where the mind is a difficult question to answer if one is trying to > explain from scientific point of view. > > Brain is NOT the mind and mind does not exist in the brain.The brain > may be assumed as work place for the mind but not exactly. > > Mind has many many associated factors.It has the characteristic of > knowing of all senses including thoughts and ideas.As it is not a > physical one,no one can find it.But its existance can be aware of. > > Find yourself the mind and if you still have problems please do not > hesitate to contact me. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > 19467 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 9:26pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Dear Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." KKT: I know that this is your favorite quote since I've read it from you so many times on this list and on the [dhamma-list] I have a question to ask you: We use words to communicate therefore a word must have a common meaning for everybody in order to be understood by all. A word would refer to either: __a concrete object (a table, a chair...) __a sensation (hot, cold...) __a feeling (love, hate, anger...) __an ABSTRACT CONCEPT (God, Creator, Atman, Self...) So when you << see for yourself with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." >> what are for you these << mine >> << I >> << my self >> ? Are they concrete objects or sensations or feelings or abstract concepts? Please don't think that I want to put a difficult question to you. I am just curious. Thanks. Best wishes, KKT 19468 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:23pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Hi KKT, Let me question you thus: Is a concrete object permanent or impermanent? Is what is impermanent easeful or unsatisfactory? Is what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change fit to be seen thus: "This is mine. This is what I am. This is my self"? And: Is a sensation permanent or impermanent? Is a feeling permanent or impermanent? Is an abstract concept permanent or impermanent? If you want to know what the terms "I", "mine", "my self" mean, please check a dictionary such as http://www.webster.com/ Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: > Dear Victor, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao > " wrote: > > > > The five khandhas are impermanent, dukkha, not self. They are to be > seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not > mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." > > > > > KKT: I know that this is your > favorite quote since I've read it > from you so many times on this list > and on the [dhamma-list] > > I have a question to ask you: > > We use words to communicate > therefore a word must have > a common meaning for everybody > in order to be understood by all. > > A word would refer to either: > > __a concrete object (a table, a chair...) > __a sensation (hot, cold...) > __a feeling (love, hate, anger...) > __an ABSTRACT CONCEPT (God, Creator, Atman, Self...) > > > So when you << see for yourself > with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. > They are not what I am. They are not my self." >> > what are for you these << mine >> << I >> << my self >> ? > > Are they concrete objects or sensations > or feelings or abstract concepts? > > > Please don't think that I want > to put a difficult question to you. > > I am just curious. Thanks. > > > Best wishes, > > > KKT 19469 From: James Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:58pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > Hi Christine, I just had to respond to this post. This is also an issue that used to make my blood boil! I also used to think that the Lord Buddha could not be someone void of defilements if he had such a view of women. But then I did some research into defilements and I realized that I held wrong view about defilements…therefore, I held wrong view about these statements and positions of the Buddha. I saw defilements as self, as something hard-wired, however they are not. If not committed, the defilements don't exist; that is why sila and meditation practice is so important…the karma stream is purified the minute that unwholesome thoughts and actions are ceased. So, keeping this in mind, I believe the Buddha was not talking about women of the past or women of the future, he was only talking about the women of his time period. Unfortunately, he didn't explain why the women of his time period were so shallow, overly sensual, unintelligent, and opportunistic: SOCIETY MADE THEM THAT WAY! It was a type of self-fulfilling prophecy. View women as shallow, overly sensual, unintelligent, and opportunistic and they will be all those things. View women as equal to men and they will become that also. What is the cause of women being subjugated by men? Well, it isn't, regardless of what the Buddha implies or the Bible states outright, the natural order of things. It is because men who subjugate women are insecure of their masculinity. What is the sure way to prove that you are a man? Dominate women! Take for example recent studies into this phenomenon: "Men in many cultures strive daily to prove to themselves and others that they qualify for inclusion in the esteemed category of "male." The fear accompanying this insecurity derives in part from a gendered system that assigns power and status to that which is male and denigrates or subordinates that which is female. To be "not male," is to be reduced to the status of woman, or, worse, to be "gay". A growing number of theorists have begun to argue that violence against women is partly fueled by men's fundamental insecurity over their masculinity (Lancaster, 1992; Stoltenberg, 1989; Segal, 1990). To say that men are insecure does not in anyway condone their coercive conduct, but it can help us understand the phenomenon and suggest avenues for intervention." http://www.wicked-envy.com/mythic_male.htm In defense of the Lord Buddha, he did see this phenomenon in the individual and recommended the course of action. He taught that women needed to drop their feminine characteristics and not attach to them and that men needed to drop their masculine characteristics and not attach to them, as described in the Sannoga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an07-048.html Actually, he equated masculinity and femininity, and its cultivation in the individual, with bondage. In conclusion, I believe the Buddha wasn't making a qualification about women with these statements; he was simply being a pragmatist. After all, he did not speak of his bhikkuni in such unflattering ways. The Buddha was simply being very blunt about what he saw, even though it appeared as if his speech was harsh and unfair. Hmmmm… seems familiar to me somehow. ;-) Metta, James 19470 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Dear Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: Hi KKT, < snip > If you want to know what the terms "I", "mine", "my self" mean, please check a dictionary such as http://www.webster.com/ Regards, Victor KKT: I don't ask the meaning of these terms in a dictionary. I ask the meaning of these terms in << Victor's mind >> When you << see for yourself with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They are not what I am. They are not my self." >> it supposes you must have some idea about what they refer to ? __A concrete object, a sensation, a feeling, an abstract concept? Peace, KKT 19471 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:33pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, I know this is not your point, but femininity is no bar to progress on the Path: "There was the nun Soma who, on being asked how she, a mere woman, could possibly hope to achieve, calmly replied; "In this doctrine and discipline, the matter of sex does not arise." (Samyuttanikaya: Sagathavagga: Bhikkhuni samyuta.)" (David Maurice: What the Buddha Really Taught.) Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be related to kamma, whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would seem to be a matter of accumulations. The question you ask is, why should femininity be seen as a less wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity? I don't know, sorry. But even if females are somehow inferior (I said "IF" :-)), it wouldn't be the Buddha's fault -- he didn't make the rules. ---------- > A simple 'that's the way this society is Ananda, boys are brought up differently to girls' would have sufficed. > ---------- What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the undesirable consequence. (I'm not sure about this -- just guessing.) ------------ > Surprising to describe one person in such a way, let alone to then generalise and speak of a 'just a woman's wit', as if such a thing came in a 'female package' > ------------ Generally speaking, all worldlings get a bad press in the suttas. Stupid, blind prejudice can't possibly be behind it to any degree whatsoever -- especially not where Ananda, your favourite disciple, is concerned :-) Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > > 19472 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 0:18am Subject: New Member - hello to you all - "May all beings be happy" Hi All Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, I am Dinesh from India, got this Group from Net , I am into Vipassana since 1993 First camp at Igatpuri India. Since then I am practising. Though My Job is having tons of deadlines as I am in Sofware field, find time for practising Vipassana. I am keeping my Intro mail Short , if its big my applogies. Kind regards and Metta to all. -Dinesh 19473 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind Hi KKT & All, I meant to respond to a couple of your posts before: In one(19047, besides pushing your luck with citations(!), you mentioned: wrote: > > Mano-vijnana (Conscious Mind or 6th Consciousness) + > Manas (Subconscious Mind or 7th Consciousness) + > Alaya-vijnana (Storehouse Consciousness or 8th Consciousness) It is believed that at the death of > a person, the first 6 Consciousnesses > are destroyed but Manas and Alaya > continue to pass to the next rebirth. > > I have noticed that small babies of > many months have already their ego. > This is the proof of Manas going > from one life to the next one :-)) .... I’d like you to review the following posts on this topic (by myself and Suan)as discussed before whether there is any basis from the pali canon to support this meaning of alaya-vijnana as storehouse consciousness: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11878.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11882.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11911.html ..... Let me give just a few breif extracts for those who want life simple: Sarah:> Citta, vi~n~nana and mano =========================== >These all refer to consciousness in different contexts. In the Atthasalini transl (PTS p 185f) we read about citta being used to refer to the ‘variegated nature’ of consciousness, mano being used to stress the knowing of the ‘measure’ of an object and vinnana is used when referring to the khandhas. There is no ‘store-consciousness.< ..... Sarah:>I note (and have checked a few of the refs) that the second set of meanings of ‘desire’ or ‘lust’ are most common for aalaya and aalayaraama and as used in AN. I also note that in PED, it doesn’t mention aalayavi~n~naa.na at all. I’ve now located the passage referred to in AN to support the suggestion in the article by Dr Rahula that alaya is an ‘aspect of the alayavinnana’ referring to citta which is ‘luminous by nature’ and so on and that which is taken as self. B.bodhi’s translation (AN 4s, 78 ‘Four Wonderful Things’, p.109 in Anthology) reads: "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non-attachment is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvellous thing that appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One. (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati.) ***** These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e ‘attachment,desire, craving, lust’. There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no suggestion of ‘alaya’ in the Pali Canon referring to any store consciousness either in any aspect. ..... Sarah>In summary, when Dr Rahula suggests the ‘original idea of alayavijnana was already there in the pali Canon of the Theravada’, with all due respect, with regard to meanings like citta, store consciousness, luminosity and so on, I think this is a real ‘stretch’.< ***** KKT, I believe there have always been and always will be attempts to introduce the idea of some ego, self, subconscious mind or store that is carried on from life to life. According to the Pali canon, all conditioned phenomena arise and fall away immediately. Nothing lasts or is ‘passed on’. By understanding more about conditions we can see how nothing occurs randomly as you suggested in another post when you were discussing why panna (understanding) might arise in one worldling and not another. It’s like asking why does lobha and not dosa arise at this moment. So many conditions interconnect to produce the lobha just as it is right now. These will include the visible object seen, the accumulation or tendency to lobha and so on. Nothing occurs by chance. I liked a comment Larry made on the destiny, fate thread when he said to you: Larry:"There is no control and no destiny because there is no self. "No control" and "no doer" mean exactly the same as anatta. There is no difference." I also liked this extract from Way 41 on the meaning of ‘independence’: "Anissito ca viharati = "And he lives independent." He lives emancipated from dependence on craving and wrong views. [T] With these words is stated the direct opposition of this meditation to the laying hold on craving and wrong views. Na ca kiñci loke upadiyati = "And clings to naught in the world." In regard to no visible shape... or consciousness, does he think: this is my soul; or this belongs to my soul." ***** When the aggregates or elements are seen as they are as conditioned phenomena that arise and pass away completely, there is no confusion with concepts, no clinging to any idea of self or store-house and no idea about free-will or determinism either. Let me finish by quoting a neat summary on elements -- and the lack of control over these -- from the preface (the easiest to read section by Thein Nyun) to the PTS "Discourse on Elements" (Dhatu-Katha), the 3rd book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka: "The Elements An element is defined as that which bears its own intrinsic nature...... The elements are not permanently present. They arise to exhibit their own characteristic natures and perform their own characteristic functions when the proper conditions are satisfied, and they cease after their span of duration. Thus no being has any control over the arising and ceasing of the elements and they are not at his mercy or will however mighty and powerful he may be. In other words, the elements have no regard for anyone, show no favour to anyone and do not accede to the wishes of anyone. They are entirely dependent on conditions. For example, when the four conditions: a visible object, the sense of sight, light and attention, ae present, the eye-consciousness element arises. No power can prevent this element from arising when these conditions are present or cause it to arise when one of them is absent." ***** KKT, I've jumped around a bit with comments from various posts of yours. I apologise for any confusion or taking any of these out of context. I greatly appreciate your interest and efforts to become more familiar with the Pali canon and appreciate your support here. As I mentioned to someone else, we all have our challenges to ‘conform’;-) Sarah ======= 19474 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:00am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Ken, The last thing I want is a conflict with you, but I do have a bone to pick. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where > females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) > > This sounds like blaming the victim, which is the supreme method for the oppression of minorities. I guess the Jews have been regularly persecuted since 0 AD because they killed Christ would be a similar statement. That you qualify your statement as a guess mitigates slightly, but only very slightly :-). Social justice cannot coexist with superstitious notions of causality. To the extent that superstitious notions of causality like the above are entertained, there is tacit acquiescence to the status quo. Appeals to non-existent cosmic forces of justice do not change a thing. If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. Herman 19475 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > Hi Christine I do understand your sentiments here. I actually know some people who quite despise Buddhism because of such negative quotes about women. I have a book called "The Historical Buddha" by a German scholar/diplomat called HW Schumann. He spent much of his life in India and wrote quite a few books on Buddhism. He does not accept that Buddha was a misogynist and gives a number of very positive quotations of the Buddha on women (after noting the nasty quotations). So there are positive and negative statements - what's going on here? Schumann gives quite a plausible explanation from the historian's viewpoint. Just one little quote from Schumann: "All the accounts in the Pali Canon of meetings of the Buddha with women prove that he regarded them as the equals of men. The fact that there were quarrelsome and bad women, and that women could entice bhikkhus away from the path, did not prevent him from admitting that women have a high capacity for understanding, and that many of them surpass men in warmth of heart and self-sacrifice." This, he argues, is why there were lots of female lay followers. There is more, but I am tired ... Give Rusty a pat from me and have a great evening! Andrew 19476 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > Herman That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like this. Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! Andrew 19477 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Andrew, Managing a group is no less doubt Hard Task. But then even "Budhha" faced This types of Query in his life Does that mean that he left his teaching. The Show must go on and on... May All beings be happy. regards, -Dinesh --- "Andrew " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " > wrote: > > > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > > > > Herman > That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like this. > Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! > Andrew > > > > > > > 19478 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi there Dinesh and Andrew, It is no doubt also very difficult to be a Buddha. Everybody wants one, preferably in their own image :-), but the gist of his message is not all that palatable once you start to chew on it. We are all to ready to hitch a saviour in front of our cart, without realising that a true saviour always wields a very sharp axe, and should we invite him/her to save us from our predicament, we must expect some chopping noises from around the roots of our beliefs. What to do? Maintain him as your Buddha, or throw him off the pedestal you put him on? Do we dare to walk into the void on our own? It is a moot point really. Welcome Dinesh, ( I am a network engineer. By Friday afternoon I really hate computers :-) ) and welcome back James. Herman PS I'm pretty sure there's the odd sotapanna out there still smarting from a stern talking to from Mrs. Abbott :-) :-) :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Andrew, > > Managing a group is no less doubt Hard Task. > But then even "Budhha" faced This types of Query in his life > Does that mean that he left his teaching. > The Show must go on and on... > May All beings be happy. > regards, > -Dinesh > > --- "Andrew " wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " > > wrote: > > > > > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > > > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > > > > > > > Herman > > That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like this. > > Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! > > Andrew 19479 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Well Egberdina, thanks for welcome. I can't hate computers on friday also as Saturday is working day for me here. Though I am not a scholar in Buddhisim. So I wont be in Debate about teachings of Buddha. But one thing I know about his Teachings is "Vipassana" which can be used by own and all for the well being. Metta to all. regards, -Dinesh --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi there Dinesh and Andrew, > > It is no doubt also very difficult to be a Buddha. Everybody wants > one, preferably in their own image :-), but the gist of his message > is not all that palatable once you start to chew on it. We are all to > ready to hitch a saviour in front of our cart, without realising that > a true saviour always wields a very sharp axe, and should we invite > him/her to save us from our predicament, we must expect some chopping > noises from around the roots of our beliefs. > > What to do? Maintain him as your Buddha, or throw him off the > pedestal you put him on? Do we dare to walk into the void on our own? > It is a moot point really. > > Welcome Dinesh, ( I am a network engineer. By Friday afternoon I > really hate computers :-) ) and welcome back James. > > > Herman > PS I'm pretty sure there's the odd sotapanna out there still smarting > from a stern talking to from Mrs. Abbott :-) :-) :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" > wrote: > > Andrew, > > > > Managing a group is no less doubt Hard Task. > > But then even "Budhha" faced This types of Query in his life > > Does that mean that he left his teaching. > > The Show must go on and on... > > May All beings be happy. > > regards, > > -Dinesh > > > > --- "Andrew " wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina > " > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > If we had someone called Buddha posting the sort of stuff that > > > > Christine quoted he would already have been evicted from here. > > > > > > > > > > Herman > > > That just shows what a hard task it is to moderate a group like > this. > > > Bouquets to Sarah and Jon for risking making such a mistake! > > > Andrew 19480 From: Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor (and KKT) - In a message dated 2/7/03 1:24:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi KKT, > > Let me question you thus: > > Is a concrete object permanent or impermanent? > > Is what is impermanent easeful or unsatisfactory? > > Is what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change fit to be > seen thus: "This is mine. This is what I am. This is my self"? > > And: > > Is a sensation permanent or impermanent? > > Is a feeling permanent or impermanent? > > Is an abstract concept permanent or impermanent? > > If you want to know what the terms "I", "mine", "my self" mean, > please check a dictionary such as http://www.webster.com/ ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That dictionary gives "the one who is speaking or writing" as the meaning for ' I '. (Does that presume the existence of such a "one"?) The issue is whether when one uses the word ' I ' the fact of using the word itself is meant to literally imply the existence of some entity called " I " or, instead, is simply engaging in a manner of speaking. (When I say "I say" I do not presume some entity called " I ", and I am certain that Nina does not either. In fact, when Nina writes "we are only citta, cetasika and rupa," I take her use of the word 'we' to be no more a reification than the use of the word ' I ' in your oft quoted ".. this is not what I am.") --------------------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Victor > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19481 From: Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/7/03 2:34:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where > females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) > > ========================== The working out of kamma vipaka is complex, and such specualtion is to no avail, I think. One could also guess that the 10 million slaughtered by Hitler had previously been murderers themselves, and that every child killed by a drive-by shooting or by the beating inflicted by the mother's "friend," to draw from sordid headlines, is merely getting his/her just desserts. I wouldn't be satisfied making such guesses. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19482 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 5:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: another lurker Hi Connie, Many thx for coming back so promptly and with all these interesting details. A little more inserted: --- connie wrote: > Hi, Sarah, > It would seem I've always stumbled into and away from 'Buddhism' through > a lot of dumb luck and misunderstanding. The last time would be about > three years ago, when I started chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo... without > the drums! The words aren't really nonsense, btw... or maybe they > are... depends on one's point of view even after they're translated / > explained. .... I have had the experience in a Japanese Temple on Vulture's Peak in India a long time ago, chanting this and beating drums and then walking up the mountain path all at the same time (about 4 or 5am from memory)..... I liked it even tho' I had difficulty with my timing. ..... Not being defensive here, just laughing with you. Not too > long ago, the words 'sabbe dhamma anatta' just to pick a few, were > nonsense to me. Come to think of it, 'living in the past' just took on > new meaning to me yesterday when I was thinking about how I live in a > world of concepts and don't realize that the things I'm still taking for > real are already gone, leaving me to my daydreams and sleepwalking. > It's not like I hadn't read it 1000 times before, just that it clicked a > little better. ..... Good comments to hear, Connie....sometimes we do need to hear the truth a few 1000 times, don't we? ..... > Don't remember what I was reading about when I first came across the > word 'abhidhamma' a year or so ago, but that has been my biggest > interest ever since. I like to think that this is the Buddhism I read > about at 14 that was so far over my head, but inspired me to take > refuge... thinking I was the only Buddhist in Alaska at the time. ..... Interesting. Sometimes I've also had that experience of thinking I've put something aside because it's 'over my head' and then reflecting on a little snippet or two. Actually, it was like that with the text on Elements from the Abhidhamma today.....all 'over my head' but a few comments from the preface and some info I was looking at in a chart were giving me pause for reflection. ..... > Before that, Buddhism was a children's book of stories from one of the > Mahayana sutras (Lotus) that I read when I was 7. I still don't > understand all of those. > I'm a reader, but not an intellectual. I am pretty good at reading > things my own way and taking that for truth and rather slow at figuring > out I'm wrong. ..... ;-) ..... > As to this particular list, I have to thank Betty for suggesting that I > join. > I've lived in Omak, Washington USA now for a little over 2 years. A > couple of Christian preachers told me about the Buddhist meditation > group in town here after they stopped by to welcome Mom and I to town > and invite us to church. ..... Perhaps you'll also encourage Betty to write more, though I know she's always got many projects. I don't know if that is Washington DC where a couple of others live. Sounds like the Christian preachers are v.helpful. ..... > As a rule, I'm pretty quiet, but abhidhamma might be something I can > learn to talk about. > Hope that's a better introduction for you. ..... that's great and yes, I hope we hear plenty from you. Metta, Sarah p.s let us know how the "rotting corpse" meditation sessions go;-) ====== 19483 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, Just to really stir your very active pot further , I think I might consider these harsh sounding words about women by the Buddha as 'positive aspects of the teachings'. Positive, in the sense of giving good reminders. Tough medicine for the right people at the right time. Just a quick note to add on your first reference: wrote: > >"What is > the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in > a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a > foreign* country ?" > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women-folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) ..... I note in the PTS, they give a footnote for “not reach the essence of the deed” which is used instead of foreign country. According to the commentary, this refers to “in search of wealth”. Perhaps it is ‘descriptive’ of the group of women being referred to, i.e ‘some’ women, perhaps. It’s difficult to read one short sutta in isolation of any commentary notes or other suttas. For example, a little later on in AN, still bk of 4s, (197), we read a sutta I find most helpful about women and when I read the ones you just quoted, I read them in the context of more detailed ones like this: Queen Mallika asks “what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence ? and what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly...but rich, with great wealth and property, with great influence?...beautiful......with little influence?....beautiful....rich.....with great influence? The Buddha explains that some women are “irascible..irritable....loses her temper.....anger, hatred and resentent....................When she is reborn she is ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence.” Then it goes through the various permutations and of course the last one who never displays anger, who is generous, unenvious and so on is reborn beautiful, rich and with great influence. Of course, we all experience aspects of all the combinations, but set out in these ways, helps us to really appreciate the danger of akusala and the necessity for kusala. We can test out even now the effects of anger on the face and in terms of influence and so on. Mallika then vows to never be irritable, angry or upset, to be generous and so on. Of course it’s easier to read a ‘complete’ sutta like this one where the ‘happy ending’ is more apparent, but to be honest, I find it easy to relate to the reminders in the more controversial ones as well. It’s like being reminded that there’s fire on one’s head and a pointing out of the dangers of kilesa in this world and the next.It’s not fashionable to look at kamma and other ‘internal’ conditions, but I don’t believe that looking at the “oppressive structure of a society” will ever give us the real answers to our 'real' problems. I think there are many, many more suttas about foolish men and bhikkhus than there are about women. Usually when bhikkhus are being advised to ignore women or stay away (see your last quote) it is more a reflection on the weakness of men than anything else. This is the reason for so many of the rules. The Vinaya reads like a manual on staying away from temptation, set out after one example after another of a bhikkhu’s foolishness. It’s hard, I know, to appreciate these quotes you gave without a full context. I just smile and think to myself, ‘yes, that sounds familiar’;-). I realise when I read my comments here how far I’ve come from my young uni feminist days and how influenced I’ve been by my respect and confidence in the Teachings. If something sounds strange to me, I immediately assume that either my understanding is too weak or there’s a problem in the translation or the commentary notes are needed. I never consider that the Teachings only applied to a certain time or that the Buddha could have been wrong though I’m sure I might have wondered about all this before. Looking forward to your responses to the smorgasbord of replies you’ve received, beginning with Ven. Yanatharo’s;-) Sorry, not to be more help. Metta, Sarah ====== 19484 From: James Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > I know this is not your point, but femininity is no bar to progress > on the Path: > Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be related to kamma, > whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would seem to be a matter of > accumulations. > > The question you ask is, why should femininity be seen as a less > wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity? I don't know, sorry. > But even if females are somehow inferior (I said "IF" :-)), it > wouldn't be the Buddha's fault -- he didn't make the rules. > > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female in a society where > females are severely discriminated against? My guess is; that > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past lives.(?) > > In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the undesirable > consequence. (I'm not sure about this -- just guessing.) Hi Ken, This could be, but not very likely. After all, just being born human is very rare and of great blessing. Perhaps it is the opposite of what you suggest. Perhaps women born into a submissive situation are being offered an extrodinary opportunity because of past good deeds. After all, the Buddha specifically said that he was born into certain hardships, over countless lives, so that he could cultivate the perfections. Perhaps women are the future Buddhas or current Buddhas of today, using their experience as women to cultivate the 10 perfections of generosity (dana), morality (sila), renunciation (nekkhamma), wisdom (panna), energy (viriya), patience (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), determination (adhitthana), loving-kindness (metta), and equanimity (upekkha). Something to consider...I'm not any more sure than you are, but prefer to give women the benefit of the doubt. Metta, James 19485 From: Nantawat Sitdhiraksa Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Dear Nina and all, I really like your statement, " Of course, really our defilements are our enemy, not another person". I just like to share my feeling rgd. the issue of abhidhamma. In Thailand, there are monks and laypersons who doubt about the authenticity of the abhidhamma, suttanta, and even vinaya. I at times ask myself, how can I prove that there are next lives or previous lives. Do I have a blind faith in the teaching of the Buddha? What can I prove, and how can I prove it ?? You mentioned purima tanha, craving in previous lives, conditions our lives in a present moment. My idea now is, not only craving from our previous lives, but also avijja, without the Buddha teaching, will have no end. Previous lobha, dosa, and moha condition the current citta somehow, directly and indirectly. Rgd. abhidhamma, suttanta, vinaya, or the tipitaka, to me personally, it's just a name. The Buddha taught us about reality, not only here and now(present) but also there and then (past, present, and future). The council categorized the teaching in to 1,or 2, or 3 sections(depends on how one defines it), just for a practical manner of organizing. Reality is reality. To me there is teaching about reality (in another word, dhamma) in all the 3 baskets. There is dhamma, or if one prefers to call, abhidhamma in vinaya, and suttanta. There is vinaya(dhamma) in suttanta, and abhidhamma. And, there is also suttanta(dhamma) in vinaya, and abhidhamma. I question all the 3 baskets. I mean when I read or listen, with my little understanding, I ask, question, or reflect of what I just read or listened. Personally, I have a harder time with vinaya and suttanta, esp. the jataka. Because I am always carried away by the story. For example, why there are elephants on a heavenly plane, why the country in the jataka is always ruled by a king (not a Prime Minister or a President), why the city in the jataka is always located in a tropical climate, the snow is not mentioned much in the tipitaka. A.Sujin always reminds us that the tipitaka is not about a story, abhidhamma is not something just to read, recite, and memorize. Knowing the name of dhamma is not equal to seeing dhamma. Understanding the story in suttanta or vinaya, does not mean understanding dhamma. Have to run. Cordially, Num 19486 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subject and object Herman --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Jon, ... <> Well, I wouldn't want to argue with this as a description of the conventional view that some/many people hold. Given the diversity of ways of seeing the world, however, I don't think we can say there is only a single conventional view of things. So in my earlier message I should have said that regarding the act of seeing as a single bi-polar event is *a* conventional view. <<(Abhidhamma/Visudh does not allow for "hear blue" which does not accord with observation)>> Not sure that I follow you on this one, so I'd better pass :-)) <> Seeing consciousness and visible object are 2 of the dhammas (fundamental phenomena) that comprise what we perceive as being the act of seeing. Now, although these dhammas are present together, they remain separate and discrete and different in their essence from each other and all other dhammas, according to my reading of the teachings. Thus, although seeing never arises without visible object, nevertheless it would be correct to say that there is no visible object in seeing consciousness, and no seeing consciousness in visible object. <> As to there being 'no object', awareness experiences a presently arisen dhamma (say, seeing consciusness) directly so that it can be seen more truly as it actually is. But this does not mean that another presently arisen dhamma (visible object) is in any way less apparent. As long as there is seeing, there is always visible object. In any event, the unique characteristic and function of seeing consciousness is the fact that it experiences visible object, and it is by this characteristic that seeing is known by panna. As panna becomes more and more developed, this unique characteristic is seen more clearly. <> Pertinent questions, Herman :-)). I do hope that what I've said makes sense. Jon <> I'm impressed at your knowledge of what's going on here in Hong Kong, Herman. This is a very hot topic right now. It is known here as the 'Article 23 Bill', because it is a law that Hong Kong is required to enact under Article No 23 of the Basic Law, Hong Kong's so-called mini-constitution (but in fact enacted by Beijing). The drafting is being done by a colleague of mine. I'm sorry to say that I'm not involved, since it would be an interesting one to be working on from a professional (drafting) point of view. My present items are all rather routine :-( . 19487 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 8:16am Subject: Re: Right Concentration Hi RobertK, I finally found one of your old posts on momentary concentration! It's such a surprise! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4068 > There can be no direct insight- even for the sukkha vipassaka at > any stage of the path - including well before sotapanna unless > there is sammasamadhi: the factor of wisdom needs support from > saati and samadhi. But this samadhi arises together with > sammaditthi and other factors of the eightfactored path. In the > case of the sukkhavipassaka the sammasamadhi is sometimes > referred to as khanika-samadhi (momentary samadhi) as it only > lasts during the moments of insight into whatever paramattha > dhammas are being insighted. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19488 From: nidive Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, Sad, indeed it's sad. But though sad, in what way can I accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing? > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that any woman who is such could not do the above things. The Buddha was simply not concerned about mundane things such as equal rights for women in his days. This is not the concern of the Dhamma. The majority of women in his days are probably not educated. For a fact, my mother is uneducated. She can't be a judge. She has no occupation; she's a housewife, I don't consider this to be an occupation. Does she know how to get around from east to west on a small island like Singapore on her own? Nay. Much less go to a foreign country. Christine, you have to look both ways. And yes, my mother can be angry, can be envious, and can be greedy. I am not joking with you, simply because I have a mother who is like that. > And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about > Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's > wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) It is no surprise to me that all Buddhas are male. As are the two Chief Disciples of any Buddha. How you thought about that? Why there aren't any female Buddha? I think the Buddha was simply stating a fact that women in general have less wit than men. And this is so true in society when men (used to ?) dominate the women. > 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" > "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her > mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal > is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply making a plain observation of women in the days of his society. His message was addressed to a "brahmin" of the ancient days. A portion of the above statement rings true even for modern society (and think about the Chinese's preference for sons), don't you think so? > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that "some women" are like that. He says "in a woman", not "in any woman". He was simply giving a precautionary warning to the monks. > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > two things." There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that can be very observable even till today. Just look at India, China, Africa, Middle East. Just look at the population explosion. I prefer to interpret "womenfolk" as "the majority". > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if > we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we to > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the Buddha > II. Paribibbana Sutta) There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. This is the practice for bikkhus. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19489 From: James Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 8:01am Subject: eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) Hi All, Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. Consider the eight Stages of Release (vimokkha): 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and attains and abides in the infinity of space. 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in the stage of the infinity of consciousness. 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and abides in the stage of nothingness. 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of perception and feeling. (Digha, ii, 111). It is from this final stage that full liberation and full knowledge (panna) is attained. Metta, James 19490 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 4:14pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Swee Boon, I think the Buddha is being very unfair to black snakes. Black snakes are black snakes, their disadvantages spring from the defilements of the observer. Women are not like black snakes, unless you perceive them that way. And when you see them that way that does not mean women become the owners of the black snake properties, the perceiver is the owner and the source of his own perceptions. Many women around the world wear veils and other garments to hide their appearance altogether. This is rationalised in many ways, including by many of the women who are so afflicted. But women wear veils not because they are sexually insatiable, but because men are sexually insatiable, and possessive as well!!! (I am speaking in general). If a man were to tell you that he has sensitive feet and needs all little rocks and debris swept from the roadway before he can walk there, you are talking to a fool. You could suggest he wears some shoes. If a man has no restraint with regards to what enters his eyes and is entertained in his mind, and says he needs the objects of his lust covered over, you are talking to a fool. You could suggest to him that the source of his defilements is his own mind. Some akusala a day keeps nibbana away. Some ignorance a day sees other parties as blameworthy. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What > > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays > > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a > > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful > and > > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) > > There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says > this. He was simply stating a fact that "some women" are like that. > He says "in a woman", not "in any woman". He was simply giving a > precautionary warning to the monks. > > > > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > > two things." > > There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says > this. He was simply stating a fact that can be very observable even > till today. Just look at India, China, Africa, Middle East. Just > look at the population explosion. I prefer to interpret "womenfolk" > as "the majority". > > > > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to > > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But > if > > we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, > > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we > to > > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the > Buddha > > II. Paribibbana Sutta) > > There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says > this. This is the practice for bikkhus. > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19491 From: Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) Hi, James - In a message dated 2/7/03 5:19:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi All, > > Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. Consider the eight > Stages of Release (vimokkha): > > 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. > 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. > 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. > 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the > disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to > perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and > attains and abides in the infinity of space. > 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he > perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in > the stage of the infinity of consciousness. > 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of > consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and > abides in the stage of nothingness. > 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and > abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. > 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- > consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of > perception and feeling. > (Digha, ii, 111). > > It is from this final stage that full liberation and full knowledge > (panna) is attained. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This may be so in some cases, James, but I believe the Buddha attained complete enlightenment from the base of the 4th jhana. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19492 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 6:33pm Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) Dear Robert, Thank you for your reply. I guess I need not fear my impending parinibbana in the foreseeable future :-) If I can ask some more questions about this subject? I thought that the example you quoted was powerfully relevant. But even one who understands by insight, as the Elder in your example, resorts to spatial understanding as he points outs his spilled intestines to the younger Bhikkhu. I want to draw in something that James has just posted regarding the steps that lead to cessation, the Eight stages of Release. In that sequence there is still a reference to space (The fourth stage and it refers to the infinity of space) when there is no longer any idea of sensation at all. Is this space also then conceptual? Thank you Herman > > Dear Herman, > I think this is an important question which delves into the > difference between concept and reality. At the moment of the actual > experience of a dhamma such as pressure or sound there is no concept > of location - this can be proven each for oneself- but immediately > after, so fast, there are concepts(with or without thinking in words) > that 'locate' the pressure or sound or feeling etc. The difference > between the conceptual process and the moment of experience can be > known too. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryFeelings.htm#* > It is said that an Elder of Cittala Hill was sick, turning over from > side to side, again and again, and groaning with great pain. To him a > young bhikkhu said: "Venerable Sir, which part of your body is > painful?" -- "A specially painful place, indeed, there is not; as a > result of taking certain things (such as forms, sounds etc.) for > object there is the experiencing of painful feeling," replied the > Elder. " endquote * see below for rest of story. > > RobertK > **"Venerable Sir, from the time one knows that, is not bearing up > (enduring) befitting?" said the young bhikkhu. "I am bearing up, > friend," said the Elder. "Bearing up is excellent, Venerable Sir," > said the young bhikkhu. The Elder bore up. Thereafter, the aerial > humour caused injury right up to the heart. His intestines protruded > out and lay in a heap on the bed. The Elder pointed that out to the > young bhikkhu and said: "Friend, is bearing up so far befitting?" The > young bhikkhu remained silent. The Elder, having applied > concentration with energy, attained arahantship with Analytical > Knowledge and passed away into the final peace of Nibbana, in the > state of consciousness immediately after the course of reflection on > the fruit of arahantship, thus realizing the highest and passing away > nearly at the same time. " > > > 19493 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:15pm Subject: Re: Christine, negative about women Ven Yanatharo Bhikkhu, Sir, Thank you for telling me about Olivia, Perla and Alicia. :-) I don't know about the reasons for rules and regulations, but feel your dogs are fortunate to be cared for and protected in such a way. You may be interested in an old thread called "Can we help advance Other Sentient Beings?". (Apparently, we can!) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6275 with metta and respect, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ven.yanatharo.bikkhu" wrote: > Dear Christine, when we monks study the sutras, this is one of the first > ones we read. This days we do not talk much because the way that equal women > rights are about. For examples, when I was not allowed to keep my three > female Bulldogs I asked why, I was thinking that they will answer that the > reason was that a monk should not have possessions. Well I was wrong, the > reason was that they are females and they bleed, and they are impure. How > studid. I left that Temple and moved to Canberra where I have my own temple > with my three beautiful bulldogs, Olivia, Perla and Alicia. Metta . Ven. > Yanatharo 19494 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:25pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi James, and All, It doesn't make my blood boil - it just makes me sad and uncertain. I cannot understand such words being said, or such attitudes being held, by a Buddha, an Enlightened one. You say that 'the Buddha was not talking about women of the past or women of the future, he was only talking about the women of his time period'. All women may have some physical characteristics that are similar. With regard to personal characteristics like level of hygiene, intelligence, or personality traits, women are not any more identical to one another than they are to any man. I don't agree with your conclusion that only women of the Buddha's time were as described. Men and women in their basic nature and potential are no different today. One does not become less intelligent simply because of an oppressive culture. Education is not Intellligence. A tribal aboriginal who is illiterate, itinerant with few belongings, and who lives in the open mostly, is no less intelligent than a University educated westerner. She has simply applied her intelligence to learn different skills appropriate to her lifestyle. I find particularly disturbing that expressions taught by the Buddha, are sufficiently discriminatory that they may have led to him being investigated by a Commissioner under the Human Rights laws in this country. And yet these teachings have been memorised, recorded and revered for thousand of years. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " wrote: 19495 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi KenH, and all, You say: "Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be related to kamma, whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would seem to be a matter of accumulations." CF: I understand that worldly conditions like discriminatory practices and oppressive customs are the result of moha, dosa, and tanha. I understand that 'where' and 'in what form' we are born is the result of kamma. I understand that attraction to the Dhamma and the ability to follow the Middle Way is possibly a matter of accumulationns. ----------------------------- You say: "The question you ask is, why should femininity be seen as a less wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity?" CF: No, this is not the question I am asking. I gave examples of some disturbing (to me)teachings in the scriptures attributed to the Buddha. I am wondering if they are really words he said or if they are later insertions. If they are words he said and attitudes he held, then there is one sort of problem - if they are later inserts there is a different sort of problem. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau " wrote: > 19496 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 7:39pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Andrew, I would be very interested to hear Schumann's 'plausible explanation from the historian's viewpoint' and would be grateful if you could give it on or off list. I am wondering mainly whether the Buddha said these things, or not? If so, how could he? If these negative sayings about women applied only to his own times, what other things in the Tipitaka should only apply to those ancient times as well? metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew " wrote: > Hi Christine > I do understand your sentiments here. I actually know some people who > quite despise Buddhism because of such negative quotes about women. > I have a book called "The Historical Buddha" by a German > scholar/diplomat called HW Schumann. 19497 From: Andrew Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 8:20pm Subject: 1000 year prediction Dear Group Perhaps you can help me with something that is puzzling me? In Cullavagga 10.1.6, the Buddha said that, because women were now admitted into the holy life, "the true Dhamma" would last only 500 years, instead of 1000 years. Do the translators give any guidance on how this is to be read? Are these figures literal or merely an expression? If they are literal, is it not the case that "the true Dhamma" has passed? Leaving what? If the figures are mere expressions, this is an example of having to interpret the words that have come down to us through an understanding of the society in which the Buddha taught, the way people communicated then etc. When I watch television documentaries showing the highly ritualistic debating of Tibetan monks, I realise how difficult it would be for me to understand these debates if all I had was a written transcript of them. Thanks in advance Andrew 19498 From: Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women The Buddha was not interested in the petty concerns expressed regarding this topic. He wanted to liberate people from sensual desires to eliminate suffering. He also called his own body vile and all bodies vile for that matter. The Buddha did not "hold attitutes," he opened doors to liberate the mind from defilements. For those who need political correctness in their dhamma, the Buddha stated that women were capable of becoming arahats and that is the highest intellectual compliment that could be made about any human being or deva for that matter! The Buddha had hundereds or thousands of ordained female priests in the sangha over 2,500 years ago! Anyone can look through the suttas and find incongruities in any number or areas if they are not mindful of the context of the conversation (the particular level and understanding of the mind(s) the Buddha is trying to "adjust," and the location and circumstances of the time). The only purpose for the Buddha to speak to anybody is to try to alleviate peoples suffering. The Buddha only sees things in terms of conditions. He does not see thing with a "personal bias." The suttas contain roughly some 10,000 pages of material. If out of that is found about half a page of materials that appears unfair, thats probably the greatest politically correct achievement of mankind! Oops! TG 19499 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Location (was Re: another lurker) In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina " wrote: > Dear Robert, > > I thought that the example you quoted was powerfully relevant. But > even one who understands by insight, as the Elder in your example, > resorts to spatial understanding as he points outs his spilled > intestines to the younger Bhikkhu. ________________ Dear Herman, Good point. I think this is because direct insight into nama and rupa cannot occur all the time. Nor should it. Even arahants make use of concepts such as location otherwise they couldn't cross the road. So in the example the venerable bhikkhu was indicating his insight wisdom but of course he could still think in a conceptual way as well. _____ > > I want to draw in something that James has just posted regarding the > steps that lead to cessation, the Eight stages of Release. In that > sequence there is still a reference to space (The fourth stage and it > refers to the infinity of space) when there is no longer any idea of > sensation at all. Is this space also then conceptual? _______________ This sutta comes from the Digha nikaya (mahanidana sutta), sutta 15. I've written about that sutta a little in my posts about paticcasamuppada. It is a very deep one indeed. James posted one section: "Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. Consider the eight Stages of Release (vimokkha): 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and attains and abides in the infinity of space. 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in the stage of the infinity of consciousness. 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and abides in the stage of nothingness. 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of perception and feeling. (Digha, ii, 111). _ In the following paragraph to this extract the Buddha notes that one who has mastered all these jhanas PLUS has extinguished the asava is one who is ceto-vimutti panna vimutti (liberated by both heart and wisdom). I.e. he is the highest type of arahant who has mastered both samatha and vipassana. The paragraph quoted is not referring to the sukkhavipassaka arahant who has eliminated the asava but didn't use the eight mundane jhanas(which are desribed above) as basis for insight. These were samathayanika, masters of jhana, they could attain different jhanas readily and so jhana was daily life for them, then the jhana could be basis for insight in that insight could distinguish nama from rupa immediately upon leaving jhana. I cited in a previous post Majjhima Nikaaya I. 1. 8. Sallekhasutta.m (8) Purity . Cunda, it may happen, that a bhikkhu secluded from sensual desires, secluded from evil thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes, with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion, would abide in the first jhaana . Then it would occur to him, I abide in purity. Cunda, in the dispensation of the noble ones that is not purity, It is called a pleasant abiding here and now. ........Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of consciousness, with there is nothing attained to abides in the sphere of no-thingness. It might occur to him I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. Cunda, it may happen that a bhikkhu overcoming all the sphere of nothingness, would attain and abide in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. It might occur to him, I abide in purity. In the dispensation of the noble ones, that is not purity, it is a pleasant abiding here and now. http://www.abhidhamma.org/sallekkha%20sutta.htm Only if these mundane jhanas are seen – upon leaving the jhana- with insight wisdom can they be the basis for emancipation. Going back to the Mahanidana sutta. In the paragraph prior to the one James cited the Buddha said "Ananda, when a bhikkhu is liberated through non-clinging then he is called a Bhikkhu liberated by wisdom." This sentence comes after a detailed discourse on the links (nidana) of the Paticasamuppada. The atthakatha says (bodhi p103) "liberated by wisdom" having brought about the [future] non-occurrence of the mental body (nama) and material body, he is liberated solely by the power of wisdom without realising the eight emancipations . This type is fivefold: the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) and those who attain arahantship after having become established in [only] one or another of the four jhanas." In the paragraph quoted the Buddha continues by describing the Bhikkhu who is released both ways, the highest that there is. Now, finally getting to your question: "In that > sequence there is still a reference to space (The fourth stage and it > refers to the infinity of space) when there is no longer any idea of > sensation at all. Is this space also then conceptual?" Yes, this is a description of one of the higher jhanas. And the object there is a concept actually. It cannot lead to insight while the jhana is existing but immediately upon leaving the jhana there can be, for the one who understands the way of vipassana, insight into the factors of mind that occured during that jhana (and that have passed away instantly. Robertk 19500 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 10:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hello TG, I'm not positive who you are addressing as you didn't give any indication. Somehow I feel it's bound to be me. Evidently I'm doing something very wrong to have terms such as "petty concerns", "need political correctness", "personal bias", and "greatest politically correct achievement of mankind! Oops!" written in a post to me. Can you tell me where I should take what is troubling my mind, if it is not to my kalyana-mitta? I have always been able to discuss anything in an atmosphere of trust and support here on dsg. If people no longer feel they are permitted to bring their honest questions about Buddhism and the Buddha to this table, what should they do? Should they say nothing and have doubts multiply.? Should they pretend there is nothing puzzling them? That would truly be Political Correctness in the disparaging way you seemed to use the term. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The Buddha was not interested in the petty concerns expressed regarding this > topic. 19501 From: Diny@ Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:05pm Subject: Dont Attack each other.. discuss and solve the doubts Hi All, As the group name is "DSG" so whoever is studying will have doubts also ( natuarally). But it does not mean to attack particular User. But to discuss politely and politely. I am reading all the mails but as I am not a scholar I am just learning from the mails. So please keep the mails informative and definately they are. But dont attack any particular human being. Some cent of mine , appologies if i hurt unknowingly. metta to all. -Dinesh --- "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Hello TG, > > I'm not positive who you are addressing as you didn't give any > indication. Somehow I feel it's bound to be me. Evidently I'm doing > something very wrong to have terms such as "petty concerns", "need > political correctness", "personal bias", and "greatest politically > correct achievement of mankind! Oops!" written in a post to me. > > Can you tell me where I should take what is troubling my mind, if it > is not to my kalyana-mitta? I have always been able to discuss > anything in an atmosphere of trust and support here on dsg. If > people no longer feel they are permitted to bring their honest > questions about Buddhism and the Buddha to this table, what should > they do? > > Should they say nothing and have doubts multiply.? Should they > pretend there is nothing puzzling them? > That would truly be Political Correctness in the disparaging way you > seemed to use the term. > > metta, > Christine > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > The Buddha was not interested in the petty concerns expressed > regarding this > > topic. > > > > > > > 19502 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Location (was Re: another lurker) Hi Herman, Just a little more to add to Rob K’s comments - --- "Egberdina " wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I am happy you sent this post. I have been puzzled for a long time, > years that is, by an observation during meditation. I have been > working my way up to asking about it. (Meditational issues seem to be > a bit taboo on this site). ..... I'm happy you're happy, Herman. Hmmm......I’m not aware of any taboo in this area, but like with all other ‘close to the heart’ reflections on practice, there are probably many different understandings here about ‘meditation’ and I think these are all open for discussion accordingly. ..... >Anyway, I am feeling courageous right now, > and you said the magic word I have been puzzled about, > namely "location". > > I am happy to accept that I just don't get it, but as I said, when I > am wordlessly (watching) the coming and going of all sorts of > mindstates, one of the attributes of whatever arises and disappears > is location. ..... It’s a very good issue to raise, I think and not obvious and clear-cut as it may seem. ..... >Whether it is heat or pressure or sound or colour, all > of these things seem to have a spatial aspect. I would like to read > your comments on this, and everyone else's of course. And without > wishing to control the comments I get back, I would prefer them to be > based on experience. ..... Understood. Firstly you mentioned mental states. By mental states I understand phenomena such as greed and hatred. Usually when these arise, they are ‘engrossed’ in their particular object which is usually a long train of concepts. There is no thought or idea or experience of anything relating to location. Occasionally at some level or other, there is awareness of the mental state involved. At these times, the object of the consciousness with awareness is that quality of greed or hatred. It could seem (but I can’t say it does for me), that this is in the head, but I believe that is just thinking about it afterwards. Next you mention heat, pressure, sound and colour. As we know, these are classified as rupas and can be proved now to be fleeting phenomena that can only be experienced by consciousness. They don’t experience anything. Heat and pressure can be experienced through any part of the bodysense. However at the instant of experiencing through the bodysense, only the heat or pressure is actually experienced. As Rob discussed I think, the mind door consciousness and thinking which ‘locates’ it follows so quickly that we think it’s the knee or eye location that is experienced, when really these are the following mind door processes. The same could be said about the sound or colour. When there is the experience of sound there is no experience of the ear location but I agree that our apparent experience can be very misleading in these regards. In some meditation practices (like Goenka-style) or in some Chinese healing systems or Tai chi, we learn to be able to experience the sensations clearly throughout the entire body or up and down the energy (chi) meridiens. I find it quite helpful for my health to do this. In terms of realities and awareness (satipatthana), I believe the matter is a lot more complex and that if one thinks this is the direct understanding of rupas or that directing one’s attention in this way is how there can be more understanding of impermanence, for example, then I think it’s erroneous. I’m touching on sensitive ground, so I'll leave it here. ..... ( I once went to an eye specialist, and on > explaining my symptoms he said that it was impossible for me to have > those symptoms.) I am just simply wondering, does the spatial aspect > of whatever arises disappear at a certain stage of whatever it is > there are stages of? ..... Your visit to the eye specialist is a good example, I think. From your point of view, of course you have the symptoms you report. From a medical point of view, it may be impossible - like phantom pains in amputated arms, for example. In other words, most people could swear that they see a tree or experience water through the body sense. This is why we need to consider the theory to some extent because supposed experience is not necessarily the right criterion. What percentage of the population insist they can experience a soul or God for that matter? I think you’re right about the spatial aspect. The more direct awareness and understanding there is of hardness or pressure or sound or mental states, the less ‘mixing’ there is with ideas (usu. not in words) about location or spatial regards. If we’ve never heard that only pressure, temperature and solidity are experienced by body consciousness, the experience won’t seem like this and definitely it will seem like a self has the experiences. Having heard and considered about realities, however, sati and panna can then actually test out whether they are experienced as the Buddha taught. That’s ‘my’ experience and I hope it doesn’t sound too jumbled for your question;-).These are quite subtle points you're raising. That’s why we always come back to the teachings as the criterion rather than different personal and subjective experiences which are bound to be as varied as there are ideas about meditation;-) I'll be glad to hear any further ideas you have. > May you not be reborn .... Thanks for all these good wishes and your witty postscripts to other messages have been appreciated. Fortunately or unfortunately, I need to set a good example of restraint . Metta, Sarah ===== 19503 From: Sarah Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 11:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member - hello to you all - "May all beings be happy" Hi Dinesh, Glad to hear from you on DSG and thank you for introducing yourself. --- "Diny@" wrote: > Hi All Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, > > I am Dinesh from India, got this Group from Net , > I am into Vipassana since 1993 > First camp at Igatpuri India. Since then I am practising. > Though My Job is having tons of deadlines as I am in Sofware field, find > time > for practising Vipassana. > > I am keeping my Intro mail Short , if its big my applogies. ..... Thanks so much for the details. We have at least two or three other members from India and a few from Sri Lanka too. Whereabouts do you live in India, I wonder? Most the software jobs seems to be in Hyderabad or Bangalore, I believe. You're obviously kept very busy. My question to you is whether there can be Vipassana while you're busy working? Look forward to more of your questions and comments. Metta, Sarah ============== 19504 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi, All, I think what is just said by James is what happens. All based on some kind of Karmic energy level still to be discovered by science. Whatever is there as stated below .. In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the undesirable undesirable consequence ... is used as a cause to have that effect of being treated (the cause & effect being pervasive all over 31 levels of existence with the only exception of Nivarna or Nibbana) all our action (kamma) come into played and everything is accountable and no administrator all automatic as in the law of conservation of energy or other physical laws. Thx. Eddie L --- "James " wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > "kenhowardau > " wrote: > > > > Hi Christine, > > > > I know this is not your point, but femininity is > no bar to > progress > > on the Path: > > > Rebirth as man or woman, rich or poor, seems to be > related to > kamma, > > whereas ability to follow the Middle Way would > seem to be a matter > of > > accumulations. > > > > The question you ask is, why should femininity be > seen as a less > > wholesome karmic consequence than masculinity? I > don't know, > sorry. > > But even if females are somehow inferior (I said > "IF" :-)), it > > wouldn't be the Buddha's fault -- he didn't make > the rules. > > > > > What would cause a being to be reborn as a female > in a society > where > > females are severely discriminated against? My > guess is; that > > being's own discriminatory behaviour in past > lives.(?) > > > > In matriarchal societies, masculinity would be the > undesirable > > consequence. (I'm not sure about this -- just > guessing.) > > > Hi Ken, > > This could be, but not very likely. After all, just > being born > human is very rare and of great blessing. Perhaps > it is the > opposite of what you suggest. Perhaps women born > into a submissive > situation are being offered an extrodinary > opportunity because of > past good deeds. After all, the Buddha specifically > said that he > was born into certain hardships, over countless > lives, so that he > could cultivate the perfections. Perhaps women are > the future > Buddhas or current Buddhas of today, using their > experience as women > to cultivate the 10 perfections of generosity > (dana), morality > (sila), renunciation (nekkhamma), wisdom (panna), > energy (viriya), > patience (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), > determination (adhitthana), > loving-kindness (metta), and equanimity (upekkha). > Something to > consider...I'm not any more sure than you are, but > prefer to give > women the benefit of the doubt. > > Metta, James > > > > > > > > 19505 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction I heard it is 5,000 years cut in half and it now 2,560 something years so also passed about over 60 years already. Eddie L --- "Andrew " wrote: > Dear Group > Perhaps you can help me with something that is > puzzling me? In > Cullavagga 10.1.6, the Buddha said that, because > women were now > admitted into the holy life, "the true Dhamma" would > last only 500 > years, instead of 1000 years. > Do the translators give any guidance on how this is > to be read? Are > these figures literal or merely an expression? If > they are literal, > is it not the case that "the true Dhamma" has > passed? Leaving what? > If the figures are mere expressions, this is an > example of having to > interpret the words that have come down to us > through an understanding > of the society in which the Buddha taught, the way > people communicated > then etc. > When I watch television documentaries showing the > highly ritualistic > debating of Tibetan monks, I realise how difficult > it would be for me > to understand these debates if all I had was a > written transcript of them. > Thanks in advance > Andrew > > > > > > 19506 From: Diny@ Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 2:48am Subject: Vipassana practice and life Transformed Hi Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, From "DSG" Group How many of you do "Vipassana" how vipassana has transformed your life and then how you have transformed others life. thanks in advance, sincere regards, -Dinesh 19507 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 2:48am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Herman, Howard and James, I agree with your comments about blaming the victim; I should have chosen my words more carefully. No doubt, a Buddha knows the precise workings of kamma/vipaka but he also knows the world as mere fleeting phenomena. So he knows that in reality, there is no victim to blame. I think another way to be less inclined towards praising and blaming is to remember the nature of samsara. As I understand it, the wheel of birth and rebirth has been turning for uncountable aeons; we must all have been at the top occasionally [as gods], at the bottom occasionally [as demons], and we must have been just about everywhere in between. (I can't quote any references for this.) If this is right, then each of us has committed every possible crime many times over; today's saint is yesterday's villain and vice versa. We're all in the same boat, all on the same giant ferris wheel, it's meaningless to praise one person and blame another. Kind regards, Ken H Weight Age Gender Female Male 19508 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 5:13am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Herman, I am sure the Buddha would had said these words to Bikkhunis if he had ever said at all. "Bikkhunis, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. Even so, Bikkhunis, there are these five disadvantages in a man. What five? He is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. These are the five. All of us in samsara, whether male or female, are unclean, evil- smelling, timid, fearful and betrays/betrayed/will betray friends either in this life or past lives or in future lives (if any) until we become Arahants. Regards, NEO Swee Boon PS: Let us be fair to the Buddha, OK? 19509 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 5:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] 1000 year prediction Dear Andrew, The commentaries said that the 1000 is meant for a Dispensation with Arahants with the 4 discriminations. It said without the additional restrictions the Buddha placed on the bikkhunis, this period would be halved. The commentaries placed the maximum life of this Dispensation to be 5000 years (with people who can become enlightened). It is all over when there is no more Pativedha (attainment). The deterioration of the Pariyatti (study of the Buddha's teachings) brings about the disappearance of Pati-pati (practice) and Pativedha. It also said if there is Pariyatti, there must be Pativedha. There can't be Pativedha without Pariyatti. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew > [mailto:athel60@t...] > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:20 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] 1000 year prediction > > 19510 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 6:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Dear Christine & All, How I study the texts is when I read something, do I understand the reasoning/the truth behind this? If I don't, I leave it aside, as regardless of how much I speculate whether or not the Buddha has said this, I cannot conclusively prove it in any way. There are tons of text related to Buddhist literature, read what brings about wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest until we can understand it. Do the texts suggest differences between men and women? I think they do. Do I understand all the differences? No. > -----Original Message----- > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, > woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the > cause, why women-folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage > in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya I agree with Ken here that it makes sense that one (men or women) who are prone to anger, envious, greedy, or poor in wisdom can't do any of the above things. > > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a > black snake. What > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, > fearful and betrays > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five > disadvantages in a > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, > timid, fearful and > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara > Nikaya III) Again, I also agree with earlier posts that men also have these qualities!!! > > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, > with regard to > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if > we should see them, what are we to do"' The > Buddha: 'No talking, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, > Lord what are we to > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' > (Dialogues of the Buddha > II. Paribibbana Sutta) > This only describes the potency of kilesa when it comes to the opposite sex! kom 19511 From: Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction Hi, Eddie - In a message dated 2/8/03 3:35:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, eddielou_us@y... writes: > I heard it is 5,000 years cut in half and it now 2,560 > something years so also passed about over 60 years > already. > > Eddie L > ========================= Hmm! In that case I wonder which U.S. gov't administration was in at the time! (I mean, we've gotta blame somebody, right! ;-) Actually, it may have been just around the time of my birth ... uh, oh!!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19512 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 6:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) James & All, > -----Original Message----- > From: James > > Hi All, > > Perhaps nama/rupa perception is incomplete. > Consider the eight > Stages of Release (vimokkha): > > 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. > 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. > 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. > 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the > disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not > attending to > perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space > is infinite", and > attains and abides in the infinity of space. > 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the > infinity of space, (he > perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and > attains and abides in > the stage of the infinity of consciousness. > 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of > consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", > and attains and > abides in the stage of nothingness. > 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of > nothingness, he attains and > abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor > non-consciousness. > 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither > consciousness nor non- > consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage > of cessation of > perception and feeling. > (Digha, ii, 111). > These describe the 4 rupa jhana and 4 arupa jhana and nirodha sampatti. As Howard already alludes to, all can be bases (objects) of enlightenments. The Venerable Sariputta attains Arahataship thru nirodha sampatti, although his attainment of sotapanna is probably(???) not based on these sampatti. kom 19513 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:43am Subject: Re: Parameters The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Dear Mike, Sarah, Robert and All, Thank you very much for considering my questions and providing thoughtful answers. I want you to know that I appreciate the effort that goes into responding. I also appreciate your patience with my awkwardness in trying to understand your point of view. I feel I need to do this for many reasons. [One of these is avoiding an outcome I had never considered before reading the Snake Sutta :- ( ] I am afraid I have still not got a clear picture of YOUR general feeling (or understanding) about other teachings. [Have had to break up my combined response as it was getting too long. This message now addresses Mike's response, will post Sarah's and Robert's later.] MN: I don't know of any other teachings that address the four noble truths (or two, as above). It's my guarded opinion that these are unique to Buddhadhamma. D: Mike, thank you for your lightning quick response, with information that I found very appropriate. It seems that other teachings also have suffering and its resolution/salvation as important endeavors. Also, addressing the unsatisfactoriness of this existence is presumably one reason for the popularity of so many (all?) religious teachings. However, if this unsatisfactory state of affairs is only defined as in the four noble truths, then implicitly they are unique to Buddhadhama. So, I think it is again an issue of terminology, view, parameters, and ultimately ... belief. I guess what I am looking for is a view about other teachings not overly restricted by the parameters of one's own dominant belief. Perhaps even this is not easily possible, let alone true objectivity. [Somehow, I am reminded of Gothic Queen Tamora's remarkable response after Roman sacrificial rites supercede her appeal for the life of her first-born in Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus. "Cruel, irreligious piety!" What struck me there was that mutually exclusive beliefs of both parties, provided no bridge to aid understanding. Needless to say both thought they were right. What therefore follows is a showcase for kilesa and kamma! BTW this play also reveals many aspects of Dukkha i.e. dukkha-dukkha, change and unsatisfactoriness that those interested may want to review it. Personal dukkha-dukkha's fade in comparison!] MN: Personally, I don't find religions or philosophies either complimentary to Buddhadhamma or 'wrong' per se (well, some seem wrong to me in various ways). However, I haven't found one that I think is relevant to the four noble truths. D: I understand this then to mean that the four noble truths are the only focus of your endeavor. Therefore the other teachings are irrelevant, rather than either complimentary or wrong. Please let me know if I understand you correctly, Mike. I enjoyed reading your quote from the Simsappa Sutta. It just reinforced my impression that the Buddha was concentrating on one aspect of reality - Dukkha, and he knew it, and even explicitly declared it. It is that very aspect of supra-mundane reality (non- Dukkha - if there is such a thing) that I want to get at here. MN: I think this finally gets into the meaning of 'reality'. A big can of worms, as can be seen in the archives...! D: I had to stop counting the number of messages with the word 'reality' in the dsg search!! I assume that if everything is encompassed in Anicca, Anatta and Dukkha, there is no *need* for consideration of an unconditioned "............", (apart from Nibbana?). Yet, that is the preoccupation of so many (billions) of other humans, and I wonder whether this anomaly can be reconciled? Is it possible to reconcile internally consistent beliefs? metta, dharam 19514 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:58am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, I think now I can understand your doubt about the Buddha and the Teaching. This is how I understand and interpret what the Buddha taught about women: First of all, the characteristics of women should be understood in the context of sexual desire and intercourse, in the context of sexual relationship, in the context of the bondage of such desire and relationship. There is a distinction between being a woman and being of female sex(for that matter, being a man and being of male sex). A bhikkhuni is of female sex; however, she is not called a woman. Let's examine Ananda's question to the Lord Buddha: "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign* country ?" Was Ananda really interested in the cause of the socioeconomic status of womanfolk of his time? And did he really need to know it, given the goal of the cessation of dukkha? Is it part of Dhamma- Vinaya? I don't think so. Then why was Ven. Ananda, a bhikkhu, asking this question? Because Ananda was preoccupied. Not with the socioeconomic status of woman of his time but with the thought and desire on woman. The question masked that preoccupation. The Buddha saw through the mask and answered to Ananda's preoccupation. Instead of giving an exposition on the cause of the SES of the womanfolk of that time, the Buddha point out that a woman, in the underlying context of sexual desire and intercourse and sexual relationship, is given to anger, is envious, is greedy, is poor in wisdom. (So is a man in that context, as far as I am concerned.) In the context of sexual desire and intercourse, of sexual relationship, of the bondage of such desire and relationship, a woman is indeed unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays friends. And so is a man, as far as I am concerned. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth " wrote: > Dear Group, > > Through my reading I have come across some words attributed to the > Buddha that I find quite disturbing: > > "Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the > venerable Ananda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come he > made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So > seated the venerable Ananda said thus to the Exalted One. "What is > the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside in > a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a > foreign* country ?" > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) > > CF: Is it not somewhat 'surprising' that, given this opportunity by > the Ven. Ananda, the Buddha didn't choose to talk about the > oppressive structure of a society that did not educate girls, and did > not employ women in activities outside the home, but chose instead to > describe women as angry, envious, greedy and with little wisdom? A > simple 'that's the way this society is Ananda, boys are brought up > differently to girls' would have sufficed. None of the women I know > could be described as epitomising these bad qualities. Though all > would experience the emotions occasionally, as do all men. (And I > know many women who run their own businesses, are magistrates and > members of parliament, and, of my close acquaintances there are none > that have not travelled to foreign countries.) > > -------------------------------- > > And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about > Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's > wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) > > CF: Surprising to describe one person in such a way, let alone to > then generalise and speak of a 'just a woman's wit', as if such a > thing came in a 'female package'. > > ------------------------------- > > and this, > > 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" > "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her > mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal > is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) > > CF: Another chance not taken to show some understanding of societal > pressures and structures limiting the horizon of women? Instead, a > limiting pronouncement is made. > > -------------------------------- > and this, > > "Monks, there are these five disadvatages in a black snake. What > five? It is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and betrays > friends. Even so, monks, there are these five disadvantages in a > woman. What five? She is unclean, evil-smelling, timid, fearful and > betrays friends. These are the five. (Anguttara Nikaya III) > > CF: There is nothing that can be said, other than this is a very sad > to read. > > ------------------------------ > > and this, with no citation, > > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > two things." > > CF: Again, sad. > > ------------------------------- > > and this, > > Ananda: 'How are we to conduct ourselves, Lord, with regard to > womankind?' The Buddha: 'As not seeing them, Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if > we should see them, what are we to do"' The Buddha: 'No talking, > Ananda.' Ananda: 'But if they should speak to us, Lord what are we to > do?' The Buddha: 'Keep wide awake, Ananda.' (Dialogues of the Buddha > II. Paribibbana Sutta) > > --------------------------------- > > metta, > > Christine 19515 From: bodhi342 Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: Parameters The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Dear Robert and All, Thank you for pointing out that rejection of view of self was where the Buddha ultimately diverged from all recluses and Brahmins. I did look up the Majjhima Nikaaya as you suggested. I am afraid I found this discourse tedious, perhaps I could not fully understand the nomenclature and/or context. I gathered that because recluses and Brahmins, did not subscribe completely to the Buddha's teaching, their understanding was incomplete or imperfect, not just different. This is fine, except it does not really explain why they are imperfect. To give an analogy, one could say, "these people do not believe in Darwinian evolution. They are not just different, they are wrong." This is internally crystal clear to those who have similar view, but not to those outside. In this case, there are logical and scientific arguments to buttress both views. One may justifiably feel there is premature closure, and elect to understand both viewpoints until 'irrefutable' evidence is available. Those in the polar 'camps' have the luxury of 'certainty', and can be intolerant of other 'inferior' views. As far as self-view itself is concerned, it may possibly be tackled in other ways e.g. in the unity of all existence, and/or efforts to understand ego and its sublimation. Therefore, a different approach to the same issue. One other point may be pertinent here. This discourse does not, and could not address, other understandings or teachings, that are now accessible. Therefore, do you think that the above tests continue to stand for these other teachings? What is your own feeling about these, not necessarily delineated by scripture? metta, dharam 19516 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 1:59pm Subject: Abhidhamma (James) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "James " <, I believe that you, Jon, and Nina (the Triumvirate of > this group) are guiltier of wrong speech and here are my reasons for > this evaluation: > > (1) Abstaining from false speech (musavada veramani) > > All three of you speak of the Abhidhamma as if the Buddha taught it. > The evidence that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma is > overwhelming. This is not a matter of personal opinion; this is a > matter of fact. Even though you are all intelligent enough to know > that the Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma, you continue to mislead > with half-truths, innuendos, and bold lies about this matter. That > is false speech. I have only stated what is accepted scholarship: > The Lord Buddha didn't teach the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > ________________ Dear James, I also believe the Buddha taught Abhidhamma. If you would like to discuss this I have some time over the next few days. RobertK 19517 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Victor, Thank you for explaining things as you understand them. It is something to think about and is quite helpful, in that what was said is put into a possibly acceptable context. The problem remains as to why these specific individualised teachings have been generalised through the millennia to to apply to all women in all situations. But that's O.K. - that's a problem concerning ordinary people, not the Buddha. Thanks Victor, metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao " wrote: 19518 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:14pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Swee Boon, > "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman > is envious. Ananda, a woman is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in > wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk > do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, > nor go to a foreign country." (Anguttara Nikaya II Chapter VIII PTS) Swee Boon: There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that any woman who is such could not do the above things. The Buddha was simply not concerned about mundane things such as equal rights for women in his days. This is not the concern of the Dhamma. The majority of women in his days are probably not educated. For a fact, my mother is uneducated. She can't be a judge. She has no occupation; she's a housewife, I don't consider this to be an occupation. Does she know how to get around from east to west on a small island like Singapore on her own? Nay. Much less go to a foreign country. Christine, you have to look both ways. And yes, my mother can be angry, can be envious, and can be greedy. I am not joking with you, simply because I have a mother who is like that. CF: It is unfortunate that your mother was not able to be educated, and understandably, this limits her choices in a place like Singapore. But education is not equatable with Intelligence. Lack of equal educational opportunity is a societal problem that should be addressed to ensure all citizens have equal access regardless of gender, age, race, culture or religion. Obviously, through no fault of her own, she would be excluded from all areas of employment requiring a certain educational level as a key critieria. This is not something for which she should be looked down upon. A person who remains in the home and co-ordinates and manages its efficient running, who contributes to the safety, health and comfort of others, and wisely cares for children is certainly in an important occupation - one that underpins an ordered and civilised society. Your remark about not considering her duties as being an occupation merely shows that it is a "devalued" occupation. It is strange to think of someone only considering paid employment as a valuable occupation. My country would not be able to function without the Volunteers who often work five days a week for organisations that supply meals and other services to the elderly to keep them in their own homes, work as volunteer Lifesavers to keep our beaches safe, supply the staff for the volunteer fire fighter groups, and Community Policing, and well as helping in any emergency in the State Emergency Service ....... and the List goes on. You say your mother can be angry, envious and greedy. Of course she can, she is human. And what about you, Swee Boon? Do you also have those unwholesome qualities? I would think all of us might at times - they are not the prerogative of one gender. Pointing to a defilement in a person doesn't then enable one to generalise it to the entire gender, anymore than it can be generalised to everyone with the same coloured eyes or hair. --------------------------------------- > And again, he spoke of Migasala who had enquired of Ananda about > Kamma as: "Just a foolish, witless female woman, with just a woman's > wit" (Anguttara Nikaya Chapter VIII PTS) Swee Boon: It is no surprise to me that all Buddhas are male. As are the two Chief Disciples of any Buddha. How you thought about that? Why there aren't any female Buddha? I think the Buddha was simply stating a fact that women in general have less wit than men. And this is so true in society when men (used to ?) dominate the women. CF: I haven't known even one Buddha - neither have you. We have both simply known the Dhamma, read one set of Teachings attributed to a person who lived 2600 years ago and who had the title The Buddha. History doesn't record any other Buddha, though some are mentioned in certain scriptures - as are gods, devas, nagas, maras and other beings and happenings not independently historically proven. Your last two sentences above are completely untrue and contrary to facts; it is a personal prejudice. Women in general do not have less wit than men in general, even when they forced to conform to the mores of an oppressive culture. ------------------------------------ > 'And what, Master Gotama, is a woman's aim?" > "A man, O brahmin, is a woman's aim, her quest is for adornments, her > mainstay is sons, her desire is to be without a co-wife and her ideal > is domination." ( Anguttara Nikaya VI.52) Swee Boon: There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply making a plain observation of women in the days of his society. His message was addressed to a "brahmin" of the ancient days. A portion of the above statement rings true even for modern society (and think about the Chinese's preference for sons), don't you think so? CF: No, I don't. These are male dominated cultural impositions when women have had little choice and are valued only in certain roles and if certain outcomes occur. As soon as women have access to reliable and safe birth control, they use it. As soon as women have access to education and employment opportunities, they take advantage of them. The marriage rate drops markedly in countries where women have a choice of a variety of relationships and independent life styles. Bodily adornment is not 'a quest' - it is a trivial matter on the level of what ice-cream flavour to choose. ------------------------------------------------- > "Monks, womenfolk end their life unsated and unreplete with two > things, What two? Sexual intercourse and childbirth. These are the > two things." Swee Boon: There is no way I can accuse the Buddha of wrong-doing when he says this. He was simply stating a fact that can be very observable even till today. Just look at India, China, Africa, Middle East. Just look at the population explosion. I prefer to interpret "womenfolk" as "the majority". CF: What *fact* is he stating? He states that women are 'unsated' by sexual intercourse and childbirth and are *unreplete* by sexual intercourse and childbirth. Again, targeting women as a gender. *Unsated* means the hungers of sexual desire are never fully appeased. Only someone who has never been with a woman during childbirth could entertain the notion that women would be 'unreplete' i.e. never completely have sufficient. As soon as women are offered the means to control conception, they gratefully take it. The other thing that alters at that time (in all cultural groups) is the reduction in the numbers of women dying from inexpert abortions, because of unwanted pregnancies. We should have compassion and understanding for powerless women in India, China, Africa, Middle East - who often have little or no education, no knowledge, or means to control their fertility or even any right to control when or with whom they must have sexual intercourse. The conception of a baby requires a man to be involved each time. The Immaculate Conception is not a buddhist belief. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: 19519 From: ven.yanatharo.bikkhu Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 8:44pm Subject: curiosity Dear Swee Boon, I am curious, are you a male or female. Veneraable Yanatharo 19520 From: smallchap Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:00pm Subject: Re: Vipassana practice and life Transformed --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Hi Dhamma Brothers and Sisters, > > From "DSG" Group > > How many of you do "Vipassana" > > how vipassana has transformed your life > > and then how you have transformed others life. I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as usual for them too. :) smallchap p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. 19521 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Andrew, > > The commentaries said that the 1000 is meant for a > Dispensation with Arahants with the 4 discriminations. It > said without the additional restrictions the Buddha placed > on the bikkhunis, this period would be halved. > > The commentaries placed the maximum life of this > Dispensation to be 5000 years (with people who can become > enlightened). > Hello Kom Thanks for your answer to my question. However, I am still a bit confused. The Cullavagga is in the Vinaya, I believe. If Buddha there used the figures 1000 and 500, how can those figures become 5000 in the commentaries? Is this an issue of translation from Pali to English? Or is it something more than that? Andrew 19522 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Howard Referring to the first of the 4 samma-padhanas mentioned in your quote from the Sangiti Sutta (Digha Nikaya): "Here friends a [monk] generates intention, sets his thinking on, rouses energy, and makes an effort - to prevent the arising of bad, unskilful states not yet present in the here and now, - ..." you say: <> and: <> I would like to follow up on this question of whether restraint of the sense-doors is something that can be engaged in as a means of avoiding akusala states (I think you perhaps have in mind here a kind of practice?). In the version of the 4 samma-padhaanas quoted in your original post (A. IV, 14), the first samma-padhaana is described as follows: "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts. "And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses. "This is called the effort to avoid." (Nyanatiloka trans) Note particularly the references 'he neither adheres to the whole nor to its parts', 'if he remained with unguarded senses' and 'restrains his senses'. To my reading, this is a description of how, at a moment of mindfulness, the sense-door is truly guarded by virtue of the mindfulness; and how, if mindfulness is absent, the sense-door cannot be considered to be guarded. The mindfulness that guards the sense-doors is clearly a high level of kusala. Kusala, of whatever level, is not something that can be 'practised' by anyone so minded, even the most well-intentioned of persons. One other comment. You also say: <<... this pertains to preliminary training.>> As far as the development of insight or mindfulness is concerned, I am not aware of any 'preliminary training'. To my understanding, there are certain prerequisite conditions, such as repeated hearing of and reflection on the teachings, but nothing in the nature of a preliminary training. However, if you have any references to this in the texts, I would be interested to know them. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > > ************************************************** > > Ultimate abandoning arises only as the fruit of wisdom. > > However, penultimate abandoning can arise as a result of > mindfulness > > accompanied by intention and energy. What I am referring to in > this > > respect is what the Buddha called guarding the senses, by which > one > > fosters kusala states and avoids akusala ones... > > ************************************************** ... > > I have not come across any classification in the teachings of > > 'penultimate abandoning arising as a result of mindfulness > > accompanied by intention and energy'. To my reading of the texts > and > > commentaries on samma-padhaana, mindfulness/insight and the > intention > > or effort for the same are really different aspects of the same > > moment of (mundane or supramundane) path consciousness. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > No ned to woory about it, Jon - it's just mundane and > conventioanl > abandoning anyway! ;-)) [More seriously, this pertains to > preliminary > training. Guarding the senses is an activity recommended by the > Buddha, it is > something you and I *can* engage in, and it cultivates the mind.] > ------------------------------------------------- 19523 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:41pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, > It is unfortunate that your mother was not able to be educated, > and understandably, this limits her choices in a place like Singapore. > Obviously, through no fault of her own, she would be excluded from all > areas of employment requiring a certain educational level as a key critieria. It is unfortunate, but does that mean it's not her own fault? It's her kamma that causes her not to have an education in this life. It's as simple as that. And it's my kamma that I have a mother who is not educated. When I was young, I wished I had an educated mother like some of my other classmates. My father has only primary education and he can't speak English. You will never know my sadness and trauma associated with that. I have always been searching for an answer to my life situation. And I found it in Theravada Buddhism. All these are simply kamma. You may reason that "societal problem" caused my mother not to be educated. But if you really and carefully study the Abdhidhamma, there is no such thing as "societal problem". There is only kamma. The concept of "societal problem" is merely to shift the blame on the person himself/herself to others. Put simply, you are asserting that it is "others" who caused my mother to be uneducated. From the Abhidhamma point of view, this assertion is wrong. "Societal problem" is merely a view, an entanglement of views. It does not lead to correct understanding of kamma. I understand perfectly your point. For I too, had considered this kind of view in the past. But it did not help me at all. To take up this view is to conveniently shift the blame to "others". It is to deny the existence of kamma. After all, we all like to say "It's not my fault.". We all like to be blameless. But the Buddha didn't teach that. > You say your mother can be angry, envious and greedy. Of course she > can, she is human. And what about you, Swee Boon? Do you also have > those unwholesome qualities? I would think all of us might at times - > they are not the prerogative of one gender. Pointing to a > defilement in a person doesn't then enable one to generalise it to > the entire gender, anymore than it can be generalised to everyone > with the same coloured eyes or hair. I don't deny I have these unwholesome qualities. And I agree that any man who has such qualities can't do what the Buddha described. But has it ever occurred to you that you are reading too much biasness into that sutta? I think that the Buddha answered in that way was because his answer was directed to Ananda's query on women. If Ananda had queried on men, the Buddha's answer would probably be the same. I feel that the biasness is on your part and not on the Buddha's part. > Your last two sentences above are completely untrue and contrary to > facts; it is a personal prejudice. Women in general do not have less > wit than men in general, even when they forced to conform to the > mores of an oppressive culture. Personal prejudice? Don't you think the majority of cultures have male as the dominating gender? > No, I don't. These are male dominated cultural impositions when > women have had little choice and are valued only in certain roles and > if certain outcomes occur. Doesn't your statement "male-dominated cultural impositions" shows that men have more wit than women? Men really does have more wit than women in general. It's a fact. > What *fact* is he stating? He states that women are 'unsated' > by sexual intercourse and childbirth and are *unreplete* by sexual > intercourse and childbirth. Again, targeting women as a gender. If men are 'unsated' by sexual intercourse, what makes you think women are not 'unsated' by sexual intercourse? Both men and women are addicted to sex. The majority of women in this world do have at least one childbirth. Otherwise, how is the world population maintained at it present level and growing still? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19524 From: Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abandoning Hi, Jon - In the following, with respect to my use of the phrase 'preliminary training' you write "To my understanding, there are certain prerequisite conditions, such as repeated hearing of and reflection on the teachings, but nothing in the nature of a preliminary training." My impression is that it is exactly this - repeatedly hearing and reflecting on the teachings - that is the only thing you understand the Dhamma as teaching us to volitionally do, and that this alone results in the subsequent arising of kusala conditions which eventually lead to the arising of liberating wisdom, to all the enlightenment factors, and, eventually, to liberation. Am I correct in this, or do I misread you in this? (This is not at all my understanding of the Dhamma, but I know that you realize that. I do not consider the Dhamma as mainly descriptive but as mainly prescriptive.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/9/03 12:13:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Referring to the first of the 4 samma-padhanas mentioned in your > quote from the Sangiti Sutta (Digha Nikaya): > "Here friends a [monk] generates intention, sets his thinking on, > rouses energy, and makes an effort > - to prevent the arising of bad, unskilful states not yet present in > the here and now, > - ..." > > you say: > < guarding the senses, by which one fosters kusala states and avoids > akusala ones...>> > > and: > < something you and I *can* engage in, and it cultivates the mind.>> > > I would like to follow up on this question of whether restraint of > the sense-doors is something that can be engaged in as a means of > avoiding akusala states (I think you perhaps have in mind here a kind > of practice?). > > In the version of the 4 samma-padhaanas quoted in your original post > (A. IV, 14), the first samma-padhaana is described as follows: > "What now, o monks, is the effort to avoid? > "Perceiving a form, or a sound, or an odour, or a taste, or a bodily > or mental impression, the monk neither adheres to the whole nor to > its parts. > "And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome > things might arise, such as greed and sorrow, if he remained with > unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his > senses. > "This is called the effort to avoid." > (Nyanatiloka trans) > > Note particularly the references 'he neither adheres to the whole nor > to its parts', 'if he remained with unguarded senses' and 'restrains > his senses'. To my reading, this is a description of how, at a > moment of mindfulness, the sense-door is truly guarded by virtue of > the mindfulness; and how, if mindfulness is absent, the sense-door > cannot be considered to be guarded. > > The mindfulness that guards the sense-doors is clearly a high level > of kusala. Kusala, of whatever level, is not something that can be > 'practised' by anyone so minded, even the most well-intentioned of > persons. > > One other comment. You also say: > <<... this pertains to preliminary training.>> > > As far as the development of insight or mindfulness is concerned, I > am not aware of any 'preliminary training'. To my understanding, > there are certain prerequisite conditions, such as repeated hearing > of and reflection on the teachings, but nothing in the nature of a > preliminary training. However, if you have any references to this in > the texts, I would be interested to know them. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19525 From: Andrew Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > > PS: Let us be fair to the Buddha, OK? Dear Group I do agree with Swee Boon's little PS above. Part of being fair to the Buddha is, I believe, understanding and acknowledging that people communicated and debated differently thousands of years ago to the manner we are used to today. The rules were different. Anyone who doubts this may like to read Satis Chandra Vidyabhusana's book, "A History of Indian Logic" (1971). I cannot be certain, but I have a feeling that Christine's doubts (which she has been brave enough to share with us) may be resolved by understanding that the Buddha's words not only matched the capacity of his specific listeners, but also the accepted rules of argument of the day. Perhaps this is why someone of supreme intelligence could (seemingly) make contradictory comments about women without encountering the "hypocrisy" backlash that we are so used to today with our vicious and shallow form of mass journalism? Perhaps communication in those days was highly personal and highly specific, ritualistic even? In other words, it may not be fair to Buddha to extrapolate from isolated comments and not put them in the overall context. Andrew 19526 From: nidive Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 10:08pm Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine, Just to add some more. I am deaf in my left ear since childhood. The doctor said it was because of a high fever. When I was a teenager, I suddenly felt very very very sad about this. I realized I am so different from my other friends. I often cried softly in my bed at night whenever I think about this. I blamed my parents for not taking good care of me when I was a child. I searched for answers to my predicament. I went to Christianity. I believed in those healing miracles stuff. I went to one of those healing sessions but was utterly disappointed. I couldn't find a satisfactory answer. I continued to blame my parents. Then I began to read up on Buddhism. I read about kamma. Slowly and slowly, I came to realize that all that is this very existence is simply kamma. It is kamma that I am deaf. I have no one to blame except myself. To blame my parents is to deny the existence of kamma. Before I came to know about Buddhism and kamma, I blamed Jesus Christ as well. I always thought: it's not my fault that I am deaf, it must be God's fault then. I hated God ever since when I was not healed by him. Blaming others is very easy to do. But it is not easy to accept one's kamma. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19528 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hello Swee Boon, Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your sharing of a little more about your early life. It must have been difficult and lonely for you at times. Swee Boon, for you to turn out as you have - an educated, ethical, articulate person shows what courage and persistence you had, and still have, to overcome barriers and make your way in life. Many of us do know what it is like to have a childhood filled with sadness and trauma. It's just that we tend to forget when we are talking to an adult that once they, too, may have suffered. I think James and Sarah both touched on the fact that suffering could be looked on as a good thing (eventually) - as it is suffering that is the stimulus for us to seek a way out, or at least an explanation. Neither you nor I would probably have found the Dhamma but for suffering. And KenH gave the example of lives as like a ride on a Ferris Wheel whereby we all pass through every possible wonderful and terrible type of life - so no-one is better or worse than another, they are just having different experiences at this moment. Your post raises some questions for me, and I hope you will help me clarify the Teachings - You say: "It is unfortunate, but does that mean it's not her own fault? It's her kamma that causes her not to have an education in this life. It's as simple as that." My question here is: 'Is every single aspect of what happens to us Kamma?' Really, I don't know. If it is, how should we regard someone in poor circumstances, the starving, someone with ill health, refugees, a victim of a vicious assault, someone who has become bankrupt? Should we think 'they deserve it'? Wouldn't that just lead to callousness and selfishness? And how does Anatta fit in here? Who did the bad kamma, who inherits the vipaka? The same one, so we're told by the scriptures - but how does it work when there is no-self. I understand what you are saying about Abhidhamma [I hope RobertK will say a little more on that topic, whether or not James responds] - but shouldn't we still try to change conditions that are causing misery to people? Maybe it is also their vipaka that they receive help, and don't have to endure unalleviated suffering? Wouldn't we be creating kusala kamma by feeling compassion and metta and easing others pain and difficulties? (I am a Social Worker in a hospital - all day, every day I work with suffering people.) Yes, it has occurred to me that I am placing too much emotional emphasis on a few suttas. (And it has been pointed out by TG as well.) I tend to be like that, but it's O.K. - I actually do listen to others and when a little emotional reaction dies down, I consider deeply what they say. I think we will have to agree to disagree about men's and women's 'wit' and being 'addicted to sex'. I could dig up numerous sociological, biological and anthropological treatises - but that's not what we are here for, and we can go to Sociology-L or Anthopology- L for those discussions. I may disagree with you on those mundane subjects - but I have been learning a lot from your posts on Dhamma, Swee Boon, and hope to continue to do so in the future. I thank you for the opportunity. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > Just to add some more. > > I am deaf in my left ear since childhood. The doctor said it was > because of a high fever. When I was a teenager, I suddenly felt very > very very sad about this. I realized I am so different from my other > friends. I often cried softly in my bed at night whenever I think > about this. > > I blamed my parents for not taking good care of me when I was a > child. I searched for answers to my predicament. I went to > Christianity. I believed in those healing miracles stuff. I went to > one of those healing sessions but was utterly disappointed. I > couldn't find a satisfactory answer. I continued to blame my parents. > > Then I began to read up on Buddhism. I read about kamma. Slowly and > slowly, I came to realize that all that is this very existence is > simply kamma. It is kamma that I am deaf. I have no one to blame > except myself. To blame my parents is to deny the existence of kamma. > > Before I came to know about Buddhism and kamma, I blamed Jesus > Christ as well. I always thought: it's not my fault that I am deaf, > it must be God's fault then. I hated God ever since when I was not > healed by him. > > Blaming others is very easy to do. But it is not easy to accept > one's kamma. > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19529 From: azita gill Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 11:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women --- azita gill wrote: > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > Christine & All, > > > > How I study the texts is when I read something, do > I > > understand the reasoning/the truth behind this? > If > > I don't, > > I leave it aside, as regardless of how much I > > speculate > > whether or not the Buddha has said this, I cannot > > conclusively prove it in any way. There are tons > of > > text > > related to Buddhist literature, read what brings > > about > > wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest > > until we > > can understand it. > dear Kom and others, don't really know what happened with that last e.mail - I apologise, must have hit a wrong button, must be because I'm a stupid dull-witted woman! Chris, I'm not making fun, and if Buddha did say these things, then maybe there is a reason that we don't know about - yet. But I do think that what Kom has stated is quite wise, and that if there are things that we don't understand or dislike, to leave them for a while and come back another time, maybe it won't be so hurtful next time. Just keep in mind this present moment is really all there is, no Buddha, no time of the Buddha, no Bangkok, no me no you, just arise and fall, constanly, of these present moments. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita http://greetings.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Greetings - Send some online love this Valentine's Day. 19530 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 11:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 1000 year prediction Hi Andrew, The 1st 1000 years are ones with Arahants with the 4 discriminations. The 2nd 1000 years are ones with Arahants (at most), albeit without the 4 discriminations (and I heard from others that without any supernormal power either). The 3rd 1000 years (where we are at) are ones with Anagami (at most) The 4th 1000 years are ones with Sagatagami (at most) The 5th 1000 years are ones with sotapanna (at most). The commentaries mentioned that in this sutta, only the 1st 1000 year is is meant, i.e., the Buddha was only talking about a dispensation perfect in both Samatha and Vipassana. As far as the complete disappearance of the Dispensation, after the 5th 1000 year is meant. Please let me know if this still confusing. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew > [mailto:athel60@t...] > Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 9:06 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] 1000 year prediction > 19531 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hey Azita, and Kom, and all, Glad your post finally made it. Especially as I'd somehow missed Kom's post altogether! I agree with you Azita, Kom's post is wise. I especially like "read what brings about wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest until we can understand it." (Appreciate :-)) And thank you for your reminders about the present moment. "Just keep in mind this present moment is really all there is, no Buddha, no time of the Buddha, no Bangkok, no me no you, just arise and fall, constantly, of these present moments." No Bangkok? ... I would have liked it better if you had said 'No Airfares'. :-) metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, azita gill wrote: > --- azita gill wrote: > > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > > Christine & All, > > > > > > How I study the texts is when I read something, do > > I > > > understand the reasoning/the truth behind this? > > If > > > I don't, > > > I leave it aside, as regardless of how much I > > > speculate > > > whether or not the Buddha has said this, I cannot > > > conclusively prove it in any way. There are tons > > of > > > text > > > related to Buddhist literature, read what brings > > > about > > > wisdom and wholesome qualities, and leave the rest > > > until we > > > can understand it. > > > dear Kom and others, > don't really know what happened with that last > e.mail - I apologise, must have hit a wrong button, > must be because I'm a stupid dull-witted woman! > Chris, I'm not making fun, and if Buddha did say > these things, then maybe there is a reason that we > don't know about - yet. But I do think that what Kom > has stated is quite wise, and that if there are things > that we don't understand or dislike, to leave them for > a while and come back another time, maybe it won't be > so hurtful next time. > Just keep in mind this present moment is really > all there is, no Buddha, no time of the Buddha, no > Bangkok, no me no you, just arise and fall, constanly, > of these present moments. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 19532 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Num, (Nina, James, Ven Yanatharo & All), I’m always glad to see you around, Num;-). I hope your recent posts which remind me of your former posts from the States are an indication that you're adapting well to work and life in Bangkok now. ..... --- Nantawat Sitdhiraksa wrote: > Rgd. abhidhamma, suttanta, vinaya, or the tipitaka, to me personally, > it's just a name. The Buddha taught us about reality, > I question all the 3 baskets. I mean when I read or listen, with my > little understanding, I ask, question, or reflect of what I just read or > listened. ..... You always make me smile. I appreciate your comments. Until DSG was set up, I had never really considered questions about nibbana, parinibbana or the origins of the Abhidhamma and details of the Councils. I realise, far more now, that as we all have different inclinations and approaches, different people need to hear about different aspects in order to really appreciate the truths about realities. In this regard, I appreciate it can be difficult for some to read or consider anything from the Abhidhamma if they consider it is not the Buddha’s Teachings as Ven. Yanatharo and James have suggested. As you say, these views are very common. Sometimes, perhaps, we need to look at ‘external’ details as well as ‘internal’ ones to clarify perhaps. What do you think? Quite some time ago on a similar thread, James made some comments and posted a link to: "Theravada Buddhism; A Chronology" Edited by John Bullitt http://www.accesstoinsight.org/history.html ..... I don’t think anyone responded and I’ve only just remembered to check the article myself. There is a lot of helpful information, but I notice that the detailed chronology and details about the various Councils come from other modern texts rather than from any of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries themselves. I’m not sure if ancient commentaries, such as those by Buddhaghosa are considered less reliable for any reason, but for my part, I find the ancient texts to be generally more trustworthy with regard to any aspects of the Teachings. For example, the article states: “The recitation of the Vinaya by Ven. Upali becomes accepted as the Vinaya Pitaka; the recitation of the Dhamma by Ven. Ananda becomes established as the Sutta Pitaka. {1,4}” ***** This is according to two other modern commentators cited at the end of the article. According to all the ancient commentaries I’ve looked at (none of which are referred to at all for this article), the Dhamma as in ‘Dhamma Vinaya’ refers to the Sutta Pitaka AND the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I discussed this in my series from the commentary to the Vinaya under ‘vinaya’ in ‘Useful Posts’. Further on, there is a suggestion that the Abhidhamma was only recited at the Third Council*, but to my understanding, it is only the Kathavatthu (Points of controversy)that is taught at a later date as instructed by the Buddha after issues would only arise later. The Table of Contents was already established at the outset. More details are given in some of the posts under ‘Abhidhamma-origins’ in U.P. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If most modern scholarship rejects the commentaries and then rejects suttas not told by the Buddha himself but by key disciples and then say, suttas, Jatakas or parts of the vinaya which seem out-dated, or difficult to comprehend (as you find some of the Jataka details), perhaps this is just an indication of the decline of the Teachings as predicted and being discussed. Already some of the commentaries are no longer available, I believe. Maybe Rob or others will add more details. The fact that the Abhidhamma was passed on to Sariputta first (in this plane) and by Sariputta to other key disciples before being rehearsed by the Great Arahants is neither here nor there as far as I see it. We just read about Rahula who was able to hear a little and immediately comprehend a vast amount of detail, so even more so in Sariputta’s case. I’ve also given quotes before in which the Buddha makes it clear that listening to the words of these key disciples is just the same as listening to his own words and that when this occurs it is still the Buddha’s Teaching. I sincerely believe that as Nina wrote, the appreciation and confidence in the authenticity or validity of the Abhidhamma can only come from ‘inside’ and not ‘outside’. Nina wrote: “The Buddha, when he attained Buddhahood realized the truth of all dhammas. These are contained in the Tipitaka. He gave the nucleus of the Abhidhamma to Sariputta. The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta. I can say more on this, but I shall wait for Sarah. These are external arguments. What matters most to me: what is the message the Buddha taught me. These are the internal arguments.” ..... (Btw Nina, I’ve caught up, but never any need to wait for me;-) I’ll be glad to hear any further details you have to share. I know others would be interested to hear these too.) ..... Nina wrote further: “We can see that Suttanta and Vinaya also contains Abhidhamma, as I pointed out before. The Buddha speaks about the five khandhas, time and again. What else are these but citta, cetasika and rupa. Mike reminded us that the Upanisa Sutta contains Abhidhamma: the Dependent Origination. And so it is with many other suttas. The Great Elephant's Footprint Discourse gives us many details on rupas, internal and external. If people would only know what the message is that is contained in the Abhidhamma they would have a growing respect and appreciation of it.” ..... Nina also showed in her article on ‘translation’ how the understanding gained from the Abhidhamma affects the comprehension of the suttas and how the same phenomena are taught in all 3 baskets. I think we've seen many examples here of how a little knowledge from the Abhidhamma helps the understanding of a sutta. I think Kom gave a good understanding of this when he gave some detail about 'ayatanas sense-fields' to explain terms translated by ideas and intellect in the Sabba Sutta (The All), which I don't believe could be understood without clarification. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14311.html I liked your comment (Num) here: Num: “I question all the 3 baskets. I mean when I read or listen, with my little understanding, I ask, question, or reflect of what I just read or listened. Personally, I have a harder time with vinaya and suttanta, esp. the jataka. Because I am always carried away by the story. For example, why there are elephants on a heavenly plane, why the country in the jataka is always ruled by a king (not a Prime Minister or a President), why the city in the jataka is always located in a tropical climate, the snow is not mentioned much in the tipitaka. A.Sujin always reminds us that the tipitaka is not about a story, abhidhamma is not something just to read, recite, and memorize. Knowing the name of dhamma is not equal to seeing dhamma. Understanding the story in suttanta or vinaya, does not mean understanding dhamma.” ..... As Kom and others have suggested, sometimes we need to put various parts of the Tipitaka aside at times. You may need to put aside some Jatakas, someone else parts of the Abhidhamma. For me, when I look at an Abhidhamma text that I really don’t understand at all, it still doesn't disturb me. However, what I had a hard time with recently and put aside was “the Peta Stories” and its excellent commentary transl by Masefield. I just found the accounts of the rebirths in the Peta realms too harrowing, such as the slanderous monk who roasted in hell and then was reborn as a peta with a putrid smelling mouth devoured by worms or the far more disturbing one still about the woman who caused her ‘co-wife’ to miscarry and then told a bad lie and ended up as a hideous peta, giving birth each morning and evening to five sons which she’d devour and never be satisfied, scorched with hunger and unable to get water to drink. I have an idea a little along the lines of learning from our ‘enemies’, that we can also learn most from the Tipitaka accounts we find most disturbing. I just took out the Peta Stories now to check a detail and find I’m much less disturbed than before - even some wise reflection as I type the reminders. I also like to consider just why they are disturbing for me and I think it is the danger of present akusala deeds. You (Num) gave another good set of comments here: “A.Sujin said that one can read and memorize all the detail, the ingredients, and the method of cooking from a book, but never know how does the food taste ( at that moment, I thought of my Saveur cook book series at home, definitely with lobha, no doubt). One may read a lot about vinaya, sutta, or abhidhamma but never sees the true characteristic of dhamma( like reading, memorizing a cook book). That leaded us back to discussion on satipatthana, sati, panna, and satisampajana. Sati, mindfulness, of the characteristic of the reality(nama, rupa) is like tasting a food. No word needed to describe it, but we know how does it taste.” ..... The taste and test are definitely at this moment. Like you and Nina have said, I don’t think we need to distinguish between suttanta and abhidhamma. What is of value is learning about realities that can be experienced and known at this moment. the considering, the checking and the questioning you mention, whatever we’re studying, will be most useful. Metta, Sarah ===== *The other question, I think, might be that if the Abhidhamma was not taught by the Buddha, who else could it have been taught by? In the preface to the ‘Discourse on Elements’, Thein Nyun adds these comments: “The Abhidhamma is so abstruse, profound and subtle that only Enlightened Buddhas are able to give a complete exposition of it because of their Omniscience in three respects:- 1) perfect knowledge of all the things knowable which are a) conditioned; b) subject to change; c)characteristics or qualities of things; d)Nibbana, and e)concepts. 2) Perfect knowledge of the various kinds of expositions for teaching the above in detail. 3) Perfect knowledge of all beings who are worthy and unworthy of instruction for deliverence. A lot of detail is given about 3)such as the nature of minds in past existences and so on. ........................... 19533 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] (2)4.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Htoo, --- "htootintnaing " wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > After Permanent and Flexible ministers(cetasikas) have been > described,here destructive ministers will be delineated.They destroy > the place they home. I really like your brief summaries and 'destructive ministers' is such a good name for the kilesa. When they all join forces, some together and some in succession, we can see the poor cittas stand no chance of leading in any wise deeds or actions. I look forward to more summaries and if you can help share with those who have no confidence in the Abhidhamma (see my last post) any comments that might be helpful, I'd be very glad. With metta, Sarah ======= 19534 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 6:53am Subject: Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Christine Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them. > My question here is: 'Is every single aspect of what happens to us > Kamma?' Really, I don't know. Yes. In fact, we are all kamma. "Swee Boon" is kamma. "Christine" is kamma. "Child X" who is starving in Africa is kamma. Each and every being is nothing but kamma. There is no self to be found in this Great Compounded Mess. There is only kamma to be found. "Beings are the owners of their kamma, heir to their kamma, born of their kamma, related through their kamma, and have their kamma as their arbitrator. Kamma is what creates distinctions among beings in terms of coarseness & refinement." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > If it is, how should we regard someone in poor circumstances, the > starving, someone with ill health, refugees, a victim of a vicious > assault, someone who has become bankrupt? Should we think 'they > deserve it'? Wouldn't that just lead to callousness and selfishness? Is there any self to be found in the five aggregates? If not, is the thinking 'they deserve it' valid? To think in this way might be better: 'Such are the five aggregates. Such is kamma. Such is coarseness. Such is refinement.'. It does not allude to a self. For me, thinking in this way leads to less and less attachment to the view of a self. It doesn't lead to callousness and selfishness. Instead, it leads to a [more] dispassioned view of existence. It leads to a kind of 'detached' compassion that does not allude to a self. > And how does Anatta fit in here? Who did the bad kamma, who inherits > the vipaka? The same one, so we're told by the scriptures - but how does > it work when there is no-self. It's not the same one, neither is it a different one. Is there any self to be found in the five aggregates? If not, is the thinking 'who did the bad kamma, who inherits the vipaka' valid? Is there any self to be found in this kamma called "Swee Boon"? Is there any self to be found in this kamma called "Christine"? Is there any self to be found in this kamma called "Child X" who is starving in Africa? Through ignorance, clinging and craving, [one] is not dispassioned with regards to the present five aggregates. In [one who is] not dispassioned as such, [one] commits kusala and akusala actions. In [one] who commits kusala and akusala actions, there comes renewed existence as another set of five aggregates. This process repeats itself infinitely for [one who is] not dispassioned. Is there any self to be found in this process? If there is a self, why are you caught up in it and are now unable to escape from its clutches? "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect. This is called new kamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > I understand what you are saying about Abhidhamma [I hope RobertK > will say a little more on that topic, whether or not James responds] - > but shouldn't we still try to change conditions that are causing > misery to people? Maybe it is also their vipaka that they receive > help, and don't have to endure unalleviated suffering? Wouldn't we > be creating kusala kamma by feeling compassion and metta and easing > others pain and difficulties? (I am a Social Worker in a hospital - > all day, every day I work with suffering people.) It's not wrong to feel compassion and ease others' pain and difficulties. But we must also see kamma as kamma. When we try to change conditions for the better, this is also kamma; there is kusala kamma being committed. But to put the blame on "societal problem" is not right view. Regarding sexual intercourse, I do find Anguttara Nikaya IV.159 interesting reading. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-159.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19535 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 2/9/03 9:55:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > "What is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & > willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... > The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & > willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma. > > "And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, > with speech, or with the intellect. This is called new kamma." > > ============================= Yes - eye, ear, tongue, body, and mind are all old kamma. And, yes, the attack one makes with one's body, speech, or intellect on another is new kamma. That attack is not necessarily at all the vipaka of one's victim; the kammic debt is one's own, and there is usually no legitimate justification to be made in term's of the kamma of the victim. The degree of involvement of the victim's kamma as condition for the attack on that victim can range from considerable to none, it is generally unknown, and, except when crystal clear, it should not be presumed in one's "moral computations". At least that is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19536 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi Howard, > The degree of involvement of the victim's kamma as condition for > the attack on that victim can range from considerable to none, it > is generally unknown, and, except when crystal clear, it should > not be presumed in one's "moral computations". I note that you said "condition for the attack". On account of this, I agree with you that this is the case if the attack had not occurred yet. But what happens if the victim is "already attacked"? > That attack is not necessarily at all the vipaka of one's victim; > the kammic debt is one's own, and there is usually no legitimate > justification to be made in term's of the kamma of the victim. I note that you said "the attack", meaning that the attack had already occurred. If it had already occurred, this is the vipaka of the victim. This is how I see it. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19537 From: nidive Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 9:42am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi Howard, Just to clarify further, I meant one's kamma need not be the cause of the attack. But nevertheless, it is vipaka for the victim who is attacked. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19538 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 10:07am Subject: RE: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Dear Christine & Swee Boon, > -----Original Message----- > From: nidive [mailto:nidive@y...] > > It's not wrong to feel compassion and ease > others' pain and > difficulties. But we must also see kamma as > kamma. When we try to > change conditions for the better, this is also > kamma; there is > kusala kamma being committed. But to put the > blame on "societal > problem" is not right view. I think it would be good to feel compassion toward other people and help when we can. We should understand that all these (kamma, vipaka, compassion, helping others, sadness, etc.) are all conditioned dhammas. When its conditions are ripe, the dhamma comes to be, and then it completely falls away. No self found anywhere... > > Regarding sexual intercourse, I do find Anguttara > Nikaya IV.159 > interesting reading. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an0 4-159.html From B. Bodhi's note: AA said the nun sent for the V. Ananda because she was in love with him. This explains why she apologized at the end and why the V. offered this specific teaching to her. Again, this tells us the strength of this sort of kilesa, which is not specific only to women... kom 19539 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 6:03am Subject: "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, all - The following is a link to an article by Santikaro Bhikkhu that is relevant to current discussions. Warning: It is not Abhidhamma-based. ;-)) The article is not technical, nor is it highly intellectual, nor is it "amazingly deep". It is, however, an article which I much appreciate and loudly applaud. With metta, Howard Click here: Karma: Did they Deserve It? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19540 From: bodhi342 Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 11:16am Subject: Re: Parameters The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of suffering." Dear Sarah and All, It is a delight to discuss aspects of the Dhamma with you. I don't know you, but some of your qualities come through clearly - patience, gentleness, consideration, tolerance, expertise and intelligence. May the world have more 'concepts' like you :-). S: I think that the more that is understood about the meaning of 'suffering' as taught by the Buddha, the more easily your question will be answered;-) Only by clearly understanding phenomena as namas and rupas, as khandhas and as elements, can dukkha really be understood as taught by the Buddha. D: I gather you mean the 'unsatisfactory' aspect in its full measure, instead of the easier to comprehend dukkha-dukkha and change. I am led here to understand that all reality is Dukkha (broadly defined). If that is correct, how does this resonate with my superficial understanding of the Simsappa Sutta as mentioned in an earlier response to Mike? I am curious why so much is included (packed) in the designated hitter 'Dukkha'; when there is such an elaborate classification, sub- classification and so on, of all the other elements etc. Understanding dukkha, and possibly the even more elusive Anatta, must take time and effort. I sense my disadvantage here, but possibly not even the full extent of it :-/. S: So we read about the various proximate causes and I think that understanding about conditions and causes helps us to know more about the conditionality of phenomena that arise and pass away accordingly. No self involved to cause anything. D: Even in the Upanisa Sutta, there is an avoidance of 'first' cause as opposed to 'proximate' cause. He does not go beyond ignorance (the primary root of the mundane series). I took that to indicate that the Buddha was concentrating on Dukkha, rather than that he thought there was no first cause. It occurs, that some other teachings address first cause to various degrees and in various ways. Hence, one of the reasons for my suggestion of their being complimentary. I have no doubt that the Buddha's treatment of (at least) dukkha- dukkha is the most comprehensive that I have come across so far. As far as the important third 'unsatisfactory' aspect is concerned however, there seem to be other (i.e. non-Buddhist) approaches to this state. Therefore, the corollary question here has to be: are we limiting our sense of reality to include only that discussed specifically by the Buddha, whose intention presumably was only to address a specific, albeit large, portion of reality? Are we ignoring other aspects, just because he did not teach about them? He himself seems to say, that he is being selective, does he not? S: We can see that all realities depend on various conditions and the wisdom that knows this is the second stage of insight. D: All realities? Is there no room for unconditioned realities i.e. "........"? Will send this off now, although only a portion of your messages has been addressed here, will await your answers before proceeding. with metta to one who personifies the very word, dharam 19541 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no 5. Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no 5. Conclusion regarding the analysis of the second issue: When one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma throught the body, bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti rúpa, does not always arise and hence it is not always be the doorway of kamma. The reasons given for this conclusion: 1. When it is said that the body-door is bodily intimation, kåya viññatti, it means, when one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma through the body, that at that moment an intention is displayed through the body, such as when giving the command to kill. However, each time one performs kusala kamma or akusala kamma, bodily intimation is not necessarily the doorway of kamma. We read in the ³Dispeller of Delusion² (Commentary to the ³Book of Analysis²), Ch 6, Classification of the Structure of Conditions, Suttanta Division (Ignorance has twentyfive characteristics, by the doors of kamma, 144): ³ Kåyasañcetanå (volition through the body) is the round of twenty volitions, namely the eight profitable volitions and the twelve unprofitable volitions of the sense sphere proceeding from the body-door by arousing bodily intimation...² In this context the commentator wants to speak about the body-door of bodily intimation, kåya viññatti, that is, when a meaning is conveyed through the body at the moment kamma is performed. In that case, the nonad of bodily intimation (the eight inseparable rúpas and bodily intimation), or the dodecad of bodily intimation (the eight inseparable rúpas, the three rúpas of changeability and bodily intimation) arise. However, this does not mean that each time one performs kamma through the body there must necessarily be kåya viñnnatti as doorway. There may only be cetanå, volition, which motivates a deed through the body without the intention to convey a meaning. In that case kamma is performed through the body-door without the arising of kåya viññatti. We should carefully consider the different cases of kamma performed through the body. The groups of rúpa originating from citta that motivates kamma through the body may be without viññatti rúpa. In that case the undecad of lightness (a group of eleven rúpas) arises; this group includes the three vikåra rúpas (of changeability) arising together with the four great Elements, and then the Element of Wind, våyo-dhåtu, can condition motion. However, the vikåra rúpas are not the doorway. Whereas when viññatti rúpa is the doorway of kamma, this happens when an intention is displayed through the body which is in that case the condition for the performing of kamma. 2. With regard to the section on killing, it has not been explained in the texts that there must necessarily be a wish to display a meaning by means of bodily intimation. The types of kamma performed through the body are diverse. Thus, the citta that motivates kamma performed through the body does not always produce kåya viññatti. When it does produce kåya viññatti, this rúpa is the doorway of kamma, for example, when a command to kill is given through the body. ***** The end. 19542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co and a cross reference.no 4. frwd from Pali yahoo. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, Co and a cross reference.no 4. We read in the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Cross-reference: In the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" the four great Elements are explained in detail by Sariputta. First he teaches the four noble Truths. All kusala dhammas are included in (come together in) the four noble truths: He then explains what dukkha is, ending with: in short, the five khandhas of clinging are dukkha. Sariputta explained in detail about the four great elements of earth, water, fire and wind. They are the basis for all the other derived ruupas. For example, colour could not arise alone, it has to be together with these four great elements. And so it is with sound and all other ruupas. The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) can be experienced by touch, not the element of water, cohesion which cxan only be experienced through the mind. This sutta reminds us that there is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, however, we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. Rahula was clinging so much to attaabhaava, but he had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. Sariputta spoke about the impermanence of outward rupas in explaining about the calamities in nature. Evenso the rupas of the body are impermanent, they fall away immediately. As we have read in the Co to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Rahula had to develop understanding not only of rupa, also of nama, of all khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is nama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the rupa that is sound, it is no the rupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: This can have a great impact upon our life. As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): < Ta~n-ce aavuso bhikku.m, pare akkosanti paribhaasanti rosenti vihesenti, so eva.m pajaanaati: Upannaa kho me aya.m sotasamphassajaa dukkhaa vedanaa, saa ca kho pa.ticca no appa.ticca, ki.m pa.ticca: phassa.m pa.ticca. So: phasso anicco ti passati, vedanaa aniccaa ti passati, sa~n~naa aniccaa ti passati, sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa ti passati, vi~n~naana.m aniccanti passati.> (translation of Wheel 101) : So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. We then read: < Tassa dhaataaramma.na.m-eva citta.m pakkhandati pasiidati santi.t.thati adhimuccati> And his mind enters into that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein). How true for daily life: what we hear or see can be disconcerting, be it only a little or very much. Knowing that what we see or hear are just conditioned elements reminds us of the true Dhamma. If equanimity does not persist in the bhikkhu, he should arouse a sense of urgency (sa.mvega.m aapajjati) as is stated in the sutta. A sense of urgency to develop right understanding at this very moment. We are bound to be distressed about an unpleasant experience or a loss, but when we begin to develop pa~n~naa we can gradually learn from such an experience. Sometimes, when there are conditions, we may even be glad and full of confidence in the Triple Gem, as we also read in this sutta: < Tassa ce aavuso bhikkhuno eva.m Buddha.m anussarato eva.m Dhamma.m anussarato eva.m Sa"nga.m anussarato upekhaa kusalanissitaa sa.n.thaati, so tena attamano hoti...> But if, when a bhikkhu recollects the enlightened One, the Teaching and the Community, equanimity with the beneficial (kusala dhamma) as its support, becomes established in him, then he is satisfied (attamano, delighted ). Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of dukkha. When we see how beneficial the Dhamma is, and how true, we can recollect the Triple Gem with gratefulness and confidence. Nina. P.S. Pali is meant for reading aloud or reciting. We can try to recite some passages. But most important: gradually learning to apply what the Sutta teaches us here. 19543 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Abhidhamma and Sariputta Dear friends, We read about Sariputta in Wheel 90-92: Nina. 19544 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 6:53 AM Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > Hi Christine > > Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate them. > > > > My question here is: 'Is every single aspect of what happens to us > > Kamma?' Really, I don't know. > > Yes. In fact, we are all kamma. "Swee Boon" is kamma. "Christine" is > kamma. "Child X" who is starving in Africa is kamma. Each and every > being is nothing but kamma. There is no self to be found in this > Great Compounded Mess. There is only kamma to be found. > According to the Sutta Pitaka the answer is no. While the vast majority of what happens to us is based on kamma, not all is the result of kamma. From the Sivaka Sutta, from the Connected Discourses, Samyutta Nikaya Vol 2 page 1278... The Buddha speaking: "Some feelings, Sivaka, arise here originating from phlegm disorders...originating from wind disorders....originating from an imbalance (of the three)....produced by change of climate....produced by careless behavior...caused by assault...produced as a result of kamma: how some feelings arise here produced as the result of kamma one can know for oneself, and that is considered to be true in the world. Now when those ascetics and brahmins hold such a doctrine and view as this, 'Whatever a person experiences, whether it be pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, all that is caused by what was done in the past, ' they overshoot what one knows by oneself and they overshoot what is considered to be true in the world. Therefore I say that this is wrong on the part of those ascetics and brahmins." The Sutta ends with a listing of these 8 things which can give rise to experiences or what happens to us.... "Bile, phlegm, and also wind, Imbalance and climate too, Carelessness and assault, With kamma result as the eight." Metta, Ray 19545 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Way 48, Comm, Clear Comprehension "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, p. 61 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Sampajanakari = "Practicing clear comprehension." Doing without fail all actions with clear comprehension [sampajaññena sabba kicca kari]. Or the doing of only clear comprehension [sampajaññasseva va kari]. [Tika] Clear comprehension [sampajananam] = comprehending clearly [sampajanam]. Both words mean the same thing; their difference is only one of affix. Doing without fail all actions with clear comprehension is the character of doing what ought to be done by oneself, with clear comprehension [attana kattabba kiccassa karana sila]. The doing of only clear comprehension is the character of practicing clear comprehension [sampajanassa karana sila]. For the yogi practices only clear comprehension and is nowhere bereft of clear comprehension, in going forwards and going backwards. There are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of purpose [satthaka sampajañña], of suitability [sappaya sampajañña], of resort [gocara sampajañña], and of non-delusion [asammoha sampajañña]. [T] The discerning of things rightly, entirely and equally is clear comprehension. Nothing else. This way of explanation is different from the commentary's. As it provides non-delusion in going forwards and backwards, the action of clear comprehension is practice of clear comprehension. Who has that practice of clear comprehension is (one) practicing clear comprehension. [T] What takes place together with the aim called growth according to the Dhamma is purpose. The clear comprehension of purpose in going forwards and backwards is clear comprehension of purpose. The clear comprehension of what is suitable, fit, to oneself is clear comprehension of suitability. The clear comprehension of the (mental) resort which is called the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, in going backwards and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is the clear comprehension of resort. Clear comprehension of non-delusion is non-delusion that is clearly comprehending and is called non-stupefaction. 19546 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about wom... Hi, Ray - In a message dated 2/9/03 5:01:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, rhendrickson1@e... writes: > The Sutta ends with a listing of these 8 things which can give rise to > experiences or what happens to us.... > > "Bile, phlegm, and also wind, > Imbalance and climate too, > Carelessness and assault, > With kamma result as the eight." > > ======================== Thank you for this, Ray! I find two types of conditions here particularly interesting. One of these is assault. This says a lot about where to attribute responsibility when one being attacks another - the answer is not the victim. The other type of condition that I find interesting is carelessness. Even this, which sometimes I would imagine actually could be kamma vipaka, is given as another type of cause. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19547 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Sariputta (Excellent). ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Sariputta > Dear friends, > We read about Sariputta in Wheel 90-92: > Disciple who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha > stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. > To the Elder the doctrine taught by the blessed One in hundreds and > thousands of methods became very clear." Thereafter, the Elder passed on > what he had learnt to his five hundred disciples. > Further it is said: "The textual order of the abhidhamma originated from > Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book (Patthana) was also > determined by him. In this way the Elder, without spoiling the unique > doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, > remember, study and teach the Law (Dhamma)." > Further on we read: > Buddha had this to say: > > "The Essence of the Dhamma (dhammadhatu) has been so well penetrated by > Sariputta, O monks, that if I were to quesion him therein for one day in > different words and phrases, Sariputta would reply likewise for one day in > various words and phrases. And if I were to question him for one night, or a > day and a night, or for two days and nights, even up to seven days and > nights, Sariputta would expound the matter for the same period of time, in > various words and phrases." (Nidana Samyutta, no 32) > In many suttas Sariputta was praised by the Buddha. He is called the general > of the Dhamma, he was very concerned to preserve the Dhamma and in his > systematic way ensured that it was transmitted intact in all details. > In the Discourse of the Elephant's Footprint (I made a little study of it > for Pali Yahoo) Sariputta teaches ultimate realities, beginning with the > four noble Truths, and he teaches in the same way as the Buddha. This sutta > is full of Abhidhamma, it is actually Abhidhamma that is taught here and > also its application in daily life. > We read in "Abhidhamma Studies" Ven. Nyanaponika, in his intro, a citation > from the Atthasalini:"He who excludes the Abhidhamma (from the Buddha-word) > damages the Conquerer's Wheel of Dhamma (jina-cakkam paharam deti). He > excludes thereby the Omniscience of the Tathagata and impoverishes the > grounds of the Master's Knowledge of Self-confidence" (vesaarajja-~naa.na to > which Omniscience belongs); he deceives an audience anxious to learn; he > obstructs (progress to) the Noble Paths of Holiness; he makes all the > eighteen causes of discord appear at once. By so doing he deserves the > disciplinary puishment of temporary segregation, or the reproof of the > assembly of monks." > We read further on: > 1. The Buddha has to be regarded as the first Abhidhammika, because, > according to the Atthasalini, "he has already penetrated the abhidhamma when > sitting under the tree of Enlightenment." > 2. "The Abhidhamma, the ultimate doctrine, is the domain of omniscient > Buddhas only, not the domain of others"(Atth). These profound teachings are > unmistakenbly the property of an enlightened being, a Buddha.> > Nina. 19548 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Christine and all, Someone may have already made this point, but I would like to say that cultivating revulsion and devalueing whatever is conventionally valued is one method of satipatthana, aimed at letting go of attachment. It isn't the only method and it isn't necessarily for everyone. It is what is appropriate for a certain "type". I think one can tell if a practice is the one for them if it produces the right results, it seems natural and easy, and one wants to do it again and again. One could possibly (??) say this is also the case in cultivating jhana, but I think genuine satipatthana will always immediately result in at least some degree of detachment, equanimity, calm, and understanding. I doubt if there could be a frenzied or busy satipatthana. Even if one looks at one's busyness and sees that it is not self, I think that busyness will immediately become calm and probably not very active, if one sees that it is really not self. I've been doing this with my own thoughts and have found that I really don't have anything to say at all. Thoughts continue to arise, but it seems there is no point in expressing, or even pursuing, them. So it's difficult to maintain the dialog. Personally, I like women a lot and think they are the best! Larry 19549 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation, no 5. Hi Nina, Is intimation concept or reality? Larry 19550 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Ray, We have discussed this sutta before, and I think Nina translated the commentary. My reading is that it is wrong for brahmins who don't know any better to say everything is the result of kamma. They shouldn't overlook immediate cause and effect. It would be unprofitable to do so. But that doesn't mean that it isn't true that everything is the result of kamma, as, I think, abhidhamma suggests. Larry 19551 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 6:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha'steachings about women) > > We have discussed this sutta before, and I think Nina translated the > commentary. My reading is that it is wrong for brahmins who don't know > any better to say everything is the result of kamma. They shouldn't > overlook immediate cause and effect. It would be unprofitable to do so. > But that doesn't mean that it isn't true that everything is the result > of kamma, as, I think, abhidhamma suggests. > > Larry > > Hi Larry, Do you know how I could best go about trying to find that translation? Bodhi's notes, based on the commentaries, on the Sutta seem to support that view. "Feelings arisen directly from the other seven causes are not "feelings produced by kamma," even though kamma may function as an underlying cause of the illness, etc., responsible for the painful feelings. According to the Abhidhamma, all bodily painful feeling is the result of kamma, but it is not necessarily produced exclusively by kamma; kamma usually operates through more tangible networks of causality to yield its result." In another note Bodhi says "Thus kamma can still be an indirect cause for the painful feeling directly induced by the first seven causes. It is sufficient cause only in the eighth cases, though even then it must operate in conjunction with various other conditions." This seems a bit forced, almost makes kamma seem like some intelligent being acting through natural causes to produce a result. I think that still goes too far in not allowing for things like accidents unrelated to any karmic result. Thus I think a object can accidentally fall and hit your foot, but how you react to it is based on kamma. Are there any Suttas anyone knows that directly say that all experiences one has is directly the result of kamma? Thanks very much for the information Larry! Metta Ray 19552 From: Sarah Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 9:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha'steachings about women) Hi Ray, --- Ray Hendrickson wrote: > > > Do you know how I could best go about trying to find that > translation? ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 Nina's transl of sutta and commentary.(In Useful Posts under Sutta translations if you lose it) Also if you keyed in 'Sivaka' in escribe search you'd probably be directed to a string of discussion. I haven't tried as I don't have time right now. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Metta, Sarah ======= 19553 From: Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha'steachings about women) Hi Ray, Nina's translation is in the archives in several emails. Maybe Sarah can fish it out. Nina or Sarah would be better at answering your questions about abhidhamma. My impression is that all discussion of kamma eventually ends with the statment that only the Buddha understands it, but I think we want to maintain the view of an ethical nature to reality in order to avoid a nihilism. However, what we know or can understand seems to take precedence over speculative theory, even if the theory is Buddhist. Larry ps: this leads to the question of what is an ethical determinism. You'll have to discuss this with someone else. It makes my head hurt. L 19554 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Re: Abandoning Hi Jon and Howard, I am sorry if the following link has been brought into play previously. Jon, there is a question at the bottom of all of this. Thanks Herman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-019.html "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > > The mindfulness that guards the sense-doors is clearly a high level > of kusala. Kusala, of whatever level, is not something that can be > 'practised' by anyone so minded, even the most well-intentioned of > persons. > Are you at odds in any way with the contents of this sutta? 19555 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Feb 9, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Thunder & Lightning Hi all, We had a huge storm here on Saturday, got heaps of very welcome rain (78 mls), and our phone got knocked out by lightning. No Internet for two days. No dsg. So what does one do, besides working out how much one owes the tax man? Contemplate anatta, of course. The following things bubbled up out of nowhere, and I would appreciate your comments. It occured to me that anatta is reality, not view or right view, and that view, let's say self-view, is illusory. (there is no object in self-view) And further, that the consequences of self-view or other views are also illusory. (how can an illusory object be an agent or a victim) And that discussions about kamma/vipaka have no point of contact with reality, which is anatta. (kamma/vipaka are some of the rules to which illusions conform) And that nibbana equals anatta Having your phone knocked out isn't all bad :-) Herman 19556 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 0:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard, Let me start by quoting a paragraph I agreed with from the article: QUOTE "If our purpose is to participate in the collective social discourse on what happened and what our responses will be, skillful means require using concepts and language that non-Buddhists can understand. "Karma" is grossly misunderstood in the mainstream culture, including among mainstream Buddhists. Raising the term risks stirring up these misconceptions and burdening the discussion with unnecessary confusion. Which terms and concepts can get useful Buddhist perspectives across? This begs the questions, which perspectives are useful in this situation?" ***** --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The following is a link to an article by Santikaro Bhikkhu that > is > relevant to current discussions. Warning: It is not Abhidhamma-based. > ;-)) > The article is not technical, nor is it highly intellectual, nor is it > "amazingly deep". It is, however, an article which I much appreciate and > loudly applaud. ..... Thanks for posting it. Many interesting topics are touched on. In the past you’ve also responded from time to time on discussions on kamma and I know that some of the areas touched on under headings such as "Personal Karmic Responsibility" and "Victimhood" in the article are somewhat ‘sensitive’, if I might put it that way. I agree that little is understood about kamma and it tends to be used as a ‘catch-all’ with little meaning. There are more and more refined ways to look at it and as Larry just pointed out, we always end by agreeing that only the Buddha understood all the real intricacies. I’d be glad if you’d read the following points and let me know if there are any you don’t agree with which we might disuss further: 1. What we take for situations are concepts and don’t exist as such. They can only be experienced by thinking. 2. Wars, terrorist attacks and so on are examples of such concepts. 3. What is actually experienced through the sense doorways (i.e not counting the mind-door) are visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, cohesion, temperature and pressure. Other realities/actualities are experienced through the mind-door as are concepts. 4. All the actualities arise depending on 24 conditions enumerated in detail in the Teachings. 5. One of these conditions is kamma, but when it acts as a condition, it must be supported by many other conditions. 6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities predominantly conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception. 7. When we talk about the effect ot others’ actions on someone or some people, what is actually experienced by these people are moments of seeing, hearing and so on as usual - i.e vipaka cittas followed by accumulated tendencies and reactions. 8. In this way, although we can say the disturbing movie or the attack or praise and blame or the weather are the proximate causes (i.e condition by way of natural decisive-support condition), still there have to be the vipaka cittas conditioned by kamma to see and hear the particular visible objects, sounds and so on at the time. 9. Ultimately, what is important is not the vipaka that experienes pleasant and unpleasant objects, but the understanding and overcoming of ignorance. This is the only way to overcome suffering. 10. In other words, the proximate cause, eg the other’s harsh words or violent deeds, the weather and so on will also depend on many other factors beyond our control. The vipaka cittas are conditioned to experience just the objects they do as a result of kamma and other factors. The accumulated tendencies and development of equanimity and dispassion will depend on this very moment of wise consideration and understanding now. ..... I’ll be glad for any comments, Howard and they certainly don’t need to be technical, intellectual or Abhidhamma-based as far as I’m concerned;-) (Nina just quoted from the following sutta which I know we’ve discussed before: "As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28): (translation of Wheel 101) : "So then if others abuse and scold and curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na." "Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of dukkha. When we see how beneficial the Dhamma is, and how true, we can recollect the Triple Gem with gratefulness and confidence." ) ***** I’ll also add the other paragraph from the article you raised at the end which I thought was well put. With metta, Sarah ------- QUOTE "Victimhood Victimhood is tricky. It involves a fair amount to clinging to "me" and "mine." May involve holding onto a hurt in order to define oneself. (Cf. Amos Oz on the Israeli-Palestinian situation.) This can be both individual and collective. Clinging to and identifying with wounds, past injustices, "what he/they did to me/us," and misfortune in itself creates and perpetuates suffering. This is one reason why Buddha-Dhamma sees beyond Karma into the more fundamental level of paticca-samuppada (dependent co-origination) and sunnata (emptiness of inherent self-existence). These realizations see through - but do not negate - the conventional level of persons, actors, and victims. They provide a way out of victimhood and guilt by removing the basis for all forms of greed, hatred, and delusion. Did you know that the Buddha mentioned a "karma that goes beyond all karma"? Ordinary karma is usually spoken of in terms of good, bad, and mixed. Then there is the transcendent karma of the noble eightfold path." ======================== 19557 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:06am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Dinesh, I am not a scholar either, so we'll be pretty safe talking to each other. I remember writing a 2000 word essay at Uni explaining to the lecturer why his question was meaningless and couldn't be answered. I didn't pass. And once, during a final exam, I answered a 3 hour paper in fifteen minutes. I suggested that economics wasn't a real subject, and that economic issues tend to get solved by war. (rings a bell?). Again, I didn't pass. I got a job instead, because my children couldn't eat books :-) I am a student of reality. Be well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Diny@" wrote: > Well Egberdina, thanks for welcome. > I can't hate computers on friday also as Saturday is working day for me here. > Though I am not a scholar in Buddhisim. > So I wont be in Debate about teachings of Buddha. > But one thing I know about his Teachings is "Vipassana" > which can be used by own and all for the well being. > > Metta to all. > > regards, > -Dinesh > 19558 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Hi Swee Boon, Please see below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive " wrote: > Hi Christine, > > > No, I don't. These are male dominated cultural impositions when > > women have had little choice and are valued only in certain roles > and > > if certain outcomes occur. > > Doesn't your statement "male-dominated cultural impositions" shows > that men have more wit than women? Men really does have more wit > than women in general. It's a fact. > Do you think wit is the means by which dominance is imposed? I wouldn't have thought that violence was particularly witty. Men are bigger than women, generally. It's a fact. Force and the threat of force require wit and the threat of wit. You be careful now :-) Herman 19559 From: nidive Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:33am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Ray & Howard > "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this > happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by > (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by > adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma -- (through all that), Sivaka, there > arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world > it is accepted as true. > "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person > experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous > action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the > world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-021.html (1) bile disorder - bodily feelings (2) phlegm disorder - bodily feelings (3) wind disorder - bodily feelings (4) imbalance of the above three - bodily feelings (5) change of climate - bodily feelings (6) careless (adverse) behaviour (inattentive care of body) - bodily feelings (7) assault (injuries) - bodily feelings We know that bodily feelings can only be of two types - pleasant and unpleasant. How then did the Buddha include the feeling of neither-pleasant-nor- unpleasant in his discourse? It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that only these seven causes of bodily feelings are not the result of kamma. What about the eye, ear, nose and tongue? Are there any feelings associated with the eye, ear, nose and tongue that is not the result of kamma? My take on this sutta is that the Buddha is talking about mental feelings. We know that mental feelings is not the result of kamma. Mental feelings is new kamma. The Buddha simply made a sweeping statement "by the results of Kamma -- (through all that)" in the last since Sivaka must be an ascetic who knows what is meant by "results of Kamma". The Buddha need not give any more enumerations of the "results of Kamma" any further. Sivaka understood what it means. It would probably take a lifetime for the Buddha to enumerate on the different types of "results of Kamma" to Sivaka. I feel that my interpretation is more in line with what the Buddha taught on kamma elsewhere in the scriptures and Abhidhamma. Nina's post is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19560 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > My take on this sutta is that the Buddha is talking about mental > feelings. We know that mental feelings is not the result of kamma. > Mental feelings is new kamma. > > The Buddha simply made a sweeping statement "by the results of > Kamma -- (through all that)" in the last since Sivaka must be an > ascetic who knows what is meant by "results of Kamma". The Buddha > need not give any more enumerations of the "results of Kamma" any > further. Sivaka understood what it means. It would probably take a > lifetime for the Buddha to enumerate on the different types > of "results of Kamma" to Sivaka. > > I feel that my interpretation is more in line with what the Buddha > taught on kamma elsewhere in the scriptures and Abhidhamma. > > Nina's post is here: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon > Hi NEO Swee Boon, Thanks very much for the link, and I thank Sarah also, I did the search and found the other posts. Frankly I think the Sutta can support both views, there was something else you said Swee Boon that I wanted to see expanded on. You said that mental feelings are not the result of kamma but the creation of kamma. It seems to me that mental feelings, positive, negative or neutral are both the result and creation of kamma. Does the Abhidhamma teach that mental feelings are not the result of kamma? Such feelings have to be conditioned and isn't kamma the primary conditioning agent here? Thanks very much for expanding on this....Ray 19561 From: Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/10/03 3:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Let me start by quoting a paragraph I agreed with from the article: > > QUOTE > "If our purpose is to participate in the collective social discourse on > what happened and what our responses will be, skillful means require using > concepts and language that non-Buddhists can understand. "Karma" is > grossly misunderstood in the mainstream culture, including among > mainstream Buddhists. Raising the term risks stirring up these > misconceptions and burdening the discussion with unnecessary confusion. > Which terms and concepts can get useful Buddhist perspectives across? This > begs the questions, which perspectives are useful in this situation?" quote> > ***** > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > The following is a link to an article by Santikaro Bhikkhu that > >is > >relevant to current discussions. Warning: It is not Abhidhamma-based. > >;-)) > >The article is not technical, nor is it highly intellectual, nor is it > >"amazingly deep". It is, however, an article which I much appreciate and > >loudly applaud. > ..... > Thanks for posting it. Many interesting topics are touched on. In the past > you’ve also responded from time to time on discussions on kamma and I know > that some of the areas touched on under headings such as "Personal Karmic > Responsibility" and "Victimhood" in the article are somewhat ‘sensitive’, > if I might put it that way. > > I agree that little is understood about kamma and it tends to be used as a > ‘catch-all’ with little meaning. There are more and more refined ways to > look at it and as Larry just pointed out, we always end by agreeing that > only the Buddha understood all the real intricacies. > > I’d be glad if you’d read the following points and let me know if there > are any you don’t agree with which we might disuss further: > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with most of the following points of yours, and those about which I have reservations are not dismissed in their entirety by me. The ones with which I have varying degrees of reservation about are (4) and (6). My reservation about (4) is minor, namely that it is unknown to me whether the 24 relations constitute a complete and correct analysis. (I do not presume that the Patthana came directly from the Buddha.) My reservation about (6) is with the word 'predominantly'. I don't know this to be true generally. I don't doubt at all, however, that one's own kamma is a condition for the experiences you mention. The mere fact of one's being in the given realm of experience is a kammically conditioned factor. BTW, there is another sense in which I would say that ALL experience is due to kamma, but that sense includes not only one's *own* kamma, but also the kamma of other namarupic streams. (I see namarupic streams as not isolated, but interacting.) The rest of your post, including your 10 principles, follows below without further comment from me. ============================ With metta, Howard > > 1. What we take for situations are concepts and don’t exist as such. They > can only be experienced by thinking. > > 2. Wars, terrorist attacks and so on are examples of such concepts. > > 3. What is actually experienced through the sense doorways (i.e not > counting the mind-door) are visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, > cohesion, temperature and pressure. Other realities/actualities are > experienced through the mind-door as are concepts. > > 4. All the actualities arise depending on 24 conditions enumerated in > detail in the Teachings. > > 5. One of these conditions is kamma, but when it acts as a condition, it > must be supported by many other conditions. > > 6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities predominantly > conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg > masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception. > > 7. When we talk about the effect ot others’ actions on someone or some > people, what is actually experienced by these people are moments of > seeing, hearing and so on as usual - i.e vipaka cittas followed by > accumulated tendencies and reactions. > > 8. In this way, although we can say the disturbing movie or the attack or > praise and blame or the weather are the proximate causes (i.e condition by > way of natural decisive-support condition), still there have to be the > vipaka cittas conditioned by kamma to see and hear the particular visible > objects, sounds and so on at the time. > > 9. Ultimately, what is important is not the vipaka that experienes > pleasant and unpleasant objects, but the understanding and overcoming of > ignorance. This is the only way to overcome suffering. > > 10. In other words, the proximate cause, eg the other’s harsh words or > violent deeds, the weather and so on will also depend on many other > factors beyond our control. The vipaka cittas are conditioned to > experience just the objects they do as a result of kamma and other > factors. The accumulated tendencies and development of equanimity and > dispassion will depend on this very moment of wise consideration and > understanding now. > ..... > I’ll be glad for any comments, Howard and they certainly don’t need to be > technical, intellectual or Abhidhamma-based as far as I’m concerned;-) > > (Nina just quoted from the following sutta which I know we’ve discussed > before: > > "As is explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M > 28): (translation of Wheel 101) : "So then if others abuse and scold and > curse and threaten a bhikkhu, he understands thus, "This painful feeling > born of ear-contact has arisen in me. That is dependent, not independent. > Dependent on what? Dependent on contact." Then he sees that contact is > impermanent.." the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and > vi~n~naa.na." > > > > "Sariputta also spoke here about the Buddha's Discourse on the "Parable of > the Saw": "Even if bandits brutally severed limb from limb with a > two-handled saw, he who entertained hate in his heart on that account > would not be one who carried out my teaching." Sariputta explained the > conditions for seeing, for the other sense-cognitions and for the > experiences through the mind-door, and he explained that the five khandhas > have arisen because of conditions. He referred to the Dependent > Origination, and he explained that clinging to the five khandhas is the > cause of dukkha, whereas the eradication of clinging is the cessation of > dukkha. When we see how beneficial the Dhamma is, and how true, we can > recollect the Triple Gem with gratefulness and confidence." ) > ***** > > I’ll also add the other paragraph from the article you raised at the end > which I thought was well put. > > With metta, > > Sarah > ------- > > QUOTE > "Victimhood > Victimhood is tricky. It involves a fair amount to clinging to "me" and > "mine." May involve holding onto a hurt in order to define oneself. (Cf. > Amos Oz on the Israeli-Palestinian situation.) This can be both individual > and collective. Clinging to and identifying with wounds, past injustices, > "what he/they did to me/us," and misfortune in itself creates and > perpetuates suffering. > > This is one reason why Buddha-Dhamma sees beyond Karma into the more > fundamental level of paticca-samuppada (dependent co-origination) and > sunnata (emptiness of inherent self-existence). These realizations see > through - but do not negate - the conventional level of persons, actors, > and victims. They provide a way out of victimhood and guilt by removing > the basis for all forms of greed, hatred, and delusion. > > Did you know that the Buddha mentioned a "karma that goes beyond all > karma"? Ordinary karma is usually spoken of in terms of good, bad, and > mixed. Then there is the transcendent karma of the noble eightfold > path." > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:13am Subject: Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 24 Perfections, Ch 7, Patience, no 24 People may believe that it is too difficult to have patience to listen and to read the Tipitaka, but one needs patience and endurance in all respects and in all situations. When we think of the past lives of the disciples, we see that before they had a high degree of patience they had attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). They had a great deal of akusala, just as people today. However, they had paññå and they understood the benefit of patience and of wholesome qualities. Therefore, they had patience to develop all kinds of kusala so that finally the perfections could reach fulfilment through the realization of the four noble Truths. Before we can reach fulfilment of the perfections, before we have finished their development, we should continue to develop them with patience and endurance, life after life, and this is ³cira kåla bhåvana², a development which takes a long time (cira kåla). It takes a long time to develop paññå to the degree that it can eradicate defilements. When we see how many defilements we still have, we understand that the development of paññå must take an endlessly long time. Defilements cannot be eradicated if we do not listen to the Dhamma and do not consider ourselves the Dhamma. All the teachings we listen to deal with the development of paññå and the eradication of defilements. We can see that if there is patience with the development of the perfections they will reach fulfilment, we do not develop them in vain: once they must reach maturity, that is, the realization of the four noble Truths. The perfections of the Exalted One, the Sammåsambuddha, reached maturity and fulfilment so that he could attain Buddhahood at the foot of the Bodhi-tree in Bodhgaya. The buddhist followers who have confidence wish to pay respect at the holy places where the most important events in the cycle of birth and death took place. However, people who will go to pay respect at the holy places, should have wise attention to the Dhamma and consider all the teachings. Therefore, I would like to deal with the patience of the Buddha¹s disciples in different lives, so that we will consider and understand that even with regard to ordinary events of daily life we should have patience and endurance. 19563 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:56am Subject: (2)5.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers Dear Dhamma Friends, As described in previous post,cetasikas have much effect on actions of Citta.Here are more about Cetasikas.Constructive ministers as I named them are 25. 1.Saddha (total belief) He makes citta believes in the practice of Dhamma and all about The Dhamma. 2.Sati (mindfulness) He makes citta watch actively and makes mindful.So citta remember to work according to its will. 3.Hiri(shamefulness) It hinders citta to do bad thing as doing so will be shameful. 4.Uttappa(fear) It makes citta unwilling to do bad things as doing so will have negative effect and citta is fearful of that result. 5.Alobha(unattachment) It makes citta willing to offer things to Sattas as citta becomes unattached to those things when Alobha advises him. 6.Adosa(Metta) It advises citta in order to exert Metta on Sattas.It has non- destructive effect.It urges citta to have a good moral. 7.Tatramijjatata(Upekkha) It equalises the strength of all accompanying cetasikas and so it advises citta as well to work in a state of equilibrium that means it works without extremeness. 8.Kayapassadhi(coolness or calmness of cetasika) It has soothing effect on cetasikas.It calms down mind and causes cetasikas free from all worries. 9.Cittapassadhi(coolness or calmness of citta) It has soothing effect on citta.It calms down mind as well and causes citta free from all worries. 10.Kayalahuta(lightness of cetasikas) It causes cetasikas ready to function well. 11.Citta-lahuta(Lightness of citta) It causes citta ready to function well. 12.Kayamuduta(tenderness of cetasikas) It causes all cetasikas to be tender and gentle. 13.Cittamuduta(tenderness of citta) It causes citta to be tender and gentle. 14.Kayakammannata(stability of cetasikas) It stabilises all cetasikas. 15.Cittakammannata(stibility of citta) It stibilises citta. 16.Kayapagunnata(appropriateness of cetasikas) It causes proper functioning of cetasikas. 17.Cittapagunnata(appropriateness of citta) It causes proper functioning of citta. 18.Kayujukata(rightness of cetasikas) It makes all cetasikas sincere. 19.Cittujukata(rightness of citta) It makes citta sincere. 20.Samma-kammanta(right action) It advises citta to do the right things only. 21.Samma-vaca(right speech) It makes citta to talk only the right things 22.Samma-ajiva(right living) It makes citta to live on right living. 23.Karuna(pitiness) It makes citta to have pity on Sattas. 24.Mudhita(happiness on wealthiness of others) It makes citta to have a good mood on the events of other people success and wealth. 25.Pannindriya(Panna or Wisdom) It makes citta to think to see and to realise in depth. All these constructive ministers at least work together. May you all have a clear view on cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 19564 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) --- Dear Ray and Swee Boon, In the useful posts under kamma and vipaka are some letters that may be helpul: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts In the Abhidhamma there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only a moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is appropriate. Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support it. It is never the only condition. Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications help us in untangling the tangle of life. Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring continually throughout samasara vatta. Here is an example:Someone sees a BMW car (my favourite): that is the concept. What actually happens is visible object conditions seeing consciousness (vipaka, result of kamma). This then conditions kilesa (craving) which if of sufficient strenght conditions kamma (perhaps stealing). In the future that act will bring a suitable result... and so the round goes on and on... I add some more now about the different conditions since Ray is interested: The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my body but it is only namas and rupas. The sense objects (eg colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for vipaka cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also mainly conditioned by past accumulations. The kilesa vatta is predominant here - not vipaka vatta. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > My > > Hi NEO Swee Boon, > > Thanks very much for the link, and I thank Sarah also, I did the search > and found the other posts. Frankly I think the Sutta can support both > views, there was something else you said Swee Boon that I wanted to see > expanded on. You said that mental feelings are not the result of kamma but > the creation of kamma. It seems to me that mental feelings, positive, > negative or neutral are both the result and creation of kamma. Does the > Abhidhamma teach that mental feelings are not the result of kamma? Such > feelings have to be conditioned and isn't kamma the primary conditioning > agent here? Thanks very much for expanding on this....Ray 19565 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Peace Hello Everyone, Any Dhammafarers in SEQld with the time and inclination on Sunday 16th Feb. may be interested in this notice - if it doesn't work by clicking on it, please cut and paste to Google. http://ronny.imess.net/anarchy/nowar.swf How wonderful if I, together with Luke and SarahF, could see you at the forum. For those that can't make it, and live on the Australian east coast, you may be interested in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peace-bris/ Hey, Herman! great to hear that your peace efforts got a mention in the National Parliament. :-) ;-) Onya!! metta and peace, Christine 19566 From: Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi, Robert - Thank you for the following. What interests me particularly in this is the amazing complexity involved: the multileveled, intricate ramifications of the conditioning-conditioned process. Not a simple matter, for sure! With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/10/2003 3:12:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Ray and Swee Boon, > In the useful posts under kamma and vipaka are some letters that may > be helpul: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > In the Abhidhamma > there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), > kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences > an object such as sound only a moment is vipaka, result. The rest > are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a > flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not > theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is > appropriate. > Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support > it. It is never the only condition. > > > Do you know about the three rounds? The round of defilement > (kilesa vatta), of action (kamma vatta), and of result of action > (vipaka vatta). Useful to understand the difference between > these and also how they are related. Kilesa vatta includes > avijja, ignorance, tanha, craving, and upadana. Kamma vatta > includes both meritorious and demeritorious deeds. Vipaka vatta, > (kamma result), relates to the consequences of actions, good or > bad. Every action produces a resultant of mind, matter, six > sense-bases, feeling etc. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, > touching are all vipaka vatta. Note that both kamma vatta and > kilesa vatta arise during the javanna process while vipaka vatta > arises only at the moments of seeing etc. These classifications > help us in untangling the tangle of life. > Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; and > dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. The > revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring > continually throughout samasara vatta. > Here is an example:Someone sees a BMW car (my favourite): that is the > concept. > What actually happens is visible object conditions seeing > consciousness (vipaka, result of kamma). This then conditions kilesa > (craving) which if of > sufficient strenght conditions kamma (perhaps stealing). In the future > that act will bring a suitable result... and so the round goes > on and on... > > I add some more now about the different conditions since Ray is > interested: > > The rupa which is seen (vannayatana) is only rupa, > however it is related to the nama which is seeing consciousness > (cakkhu vinnana). It is aramma paccaya, and it is also > prenascent presence condition (atthi- paccaya). It is also > helpful to know that rupa is always vipayutta-paccaya > (dissociation condition) for the nama it conditions because then > we will realise that no matter what happens nama need not be > affected. For instance, if we experience the cutting of our > limbs (eg accident) we can understand that the body base is > dissociated from the namas. We cling to a whole of "me" and my > body but it is only namas and rupas. > The sense objects (eg > colours) are certainly crucial conditioning factors for > vipaka > cittas. They also condition the javanna cittas by arammana > paccaya - but the javanna cittas are also mainly conditioned > by past accumulations. The kilesa vatta is > predominant here - not vipaka vatta. > > RobertK 19567 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 2:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi RobertK, Howard, Swee Boon, Christine and all :) Robert thank you very the very detailed explanation. I have not contemplated in terms of the three rounds and thank you very much for writing about them. I think where I have to put forth some more work is my mistaking akusala and kusala for vipaka. The Pali Dictionary I have says of vipaka, "Never, for example, is any karmically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself karma." I also think you point that vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support it goes a long way towards understanding the Sivaka Sutta, which I think still allows for that rock to fall on our foot my accident :) Also thank you very much for your link to the Useful Posts area. Metta Ray... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:12 PM Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) > --- > Dear Ray and Swee Boon, > In the useful posts under kamma and vipaka are some letters that may > be helpul: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts > In the Abhidhamma > there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), > kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences > an object such as sound only a moment is vipaka, result. The rest > are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a > flash and then many more moments that are not vipaka. This is not > theory and can be seen by developed insight to whatever degree is > appropriate. > Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions to support > it. It is never the only condition. 19568 From: Sarah Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parameters Hi Dharam, Thank you for all your kind comments (deserved or undserved;-)). wrote: > The Buddha declared "I teach only suffering and the cessation of > suffering." ..... This is a neat idea as a signature as a ‘header’;-) ..... > D: I gather you mean the 'unsatisfactory' aspect in its full measure, > instead of the easier to comprehend dukkha-dukkha and change. ..... Suffering as in the 4NT referred to in your header. ..... >I am > led here to understand that all reality is Dukkha (broadly > defined). If that is correct, how does this resonate with my > superficial understanding of the Simsappa Sutta as mentioned in an > earlier response to Mike? ..... I had to go back to the other correspondence to check your ‘superficial understanding’ referred to: ***** Dharam to Mike: “I enjoyed reading your quote from the Simsappa Sutta . It just reinforced my impression that the Budha was concentrating on one aspect of reality - dukkha, and he knew it, and even explicity declared it. It is that very aspect of supra-mundane reality (non-Dukkha - if there is such a thing) that I want to get at here.” ***** Hopefully Mike may reply to your comments when he has time. I don’t quite follow you or agree with the implications of your comments elsewhere about “the four noble truths are the only focus of your endeavour”, suggesting other truths are left out perhaps? The Buddha taught us about all the realities which can ever be experienced. The inherent nature of all these is dukkha. By understanding these realities and the cause of suffering (i.e clinging to what is by nature impermanent and unsatisfactory), that reality which is ”non- Dukkha”, i.e nibbana, can be realized. There are only the conditioned realities with the characteristic of dukkha and the non-conditioned reality, nibbana. No others. This is why in the sutta, the Buddha says with regard to what is not taught: "...they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them." ..... In other words, as I understand, all that is related to what can be known and related to what is connected with the 4NT is taught. There is no other unconditioned reality apart from nibbana as you suggest. We also seem to be using ultimate realities (“......”) in quite a different way. Most of us here are referring to paramattha dhammas, the conditioned realities and nibbana as referred to above, as distinct from concepts. I suggest that instead of searching for ‘reality’ in the archives, it may be easier (and a lot quicker) to look at the section under ‘Concepts and Realities’ in useful posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... > I am curious why so much is included (packed) in the designated > hitter 'Dukkha'; when there is such an elaborate classification, sub- > classification and so on, of all the other elements etc. > Understanding dukkha, and possibly the even more elusive Anatta, must > take time and effort. I sense my disadvantage here, but possibly > not even the full extent of it :-/. ..... Dukkha and anatta are characteristics of all the elements , khandhas and so on which are simply different ways of categorising the same realities mentioned. ..... > D: Even in the Upanisa Sutta, there is an avoidance of 'first' cause > as opposed to 'proximate' cause. He does not go beyond ignorance > (the primary root of the mundane series). I took that to indicate > that the Buddha was concentrating on Dukkha, rather than that he > thought there was no first cause. It occurs, that some other > teachings address first cause to various degrees and in various > ways. Hence, one of the reasons for my suggestion of their being > complimentary. ..... Ignorance is the cause of the rounds of samsara to which no beginning can be found. Trying to trace a first round or first cause is not productive. Rather than being complimentary in this particular regard, I would say the ideas about any ‘beginning’ are quite different. ..... > I have no doubt that the Buddha's treatment of (at least) dukkha- > dukkha is the most comprehensive that I have come across so far. > As far as the important third 'unsatisfactory' aspect is concerned > however, there seem to be other (i.e. non-Buddhist) approaches to > this state. ..... I don’t wish to say whether this is right or not. The 1st NT can only be understood by developing the stages of insight elaborated, starting with the very clear understanding of namas and rupas as quite distinct and as empty (of self) phenomena. ..... > Therefore, the corollary question here has to be: are we limiting our > sense of reality to include only that discussed specifically by the > Buddha, whose intention presumably was only to address a specific, > albeit large, portion of reality? Are we ignoring other aspects, > just because he did not teach about them? He himself seems to say, > that he is being selective, does he not? ..... I don’t agree with this. What he didn’t teach would refer to the extraordinary knowledge he had about so many aspects and details not relevant or related to the understanding of all possible realities. To give a crude example or two - he would know and understand all the previous life details of a particular deva and all that would be conditioned in future to arise for that deva down to the most intricate details if he applied his mind to do so. He knew all the precise details relating to every rupa arising in a tree and so on. We cannot begin to imagine a tiny aspect of the Buddha’s knowledge. A look at any of the Abhidhamma texts, such as the “Discourse on Elements” gives one just a glimpse of this extraordinary omniscinent knowledge. Please don’t think that anything is being held back that can ever possibly be known, not even anything that can possibly be known (or of use) by the other great arahants, I would think. ..... > D: All realities? Is there no room for unconditioned realities > i.e. "........"? .... I expect in the context I was referring to conditioned realities. i’m glad to be corrected. As I said, there is only one unconditioned reality, nibbana. I believe your “....” must refer to conditioned realities, but I no longer understand quite what you are referring to. ..... > Will send this off now, although only a portion of your messages has > been addressed here, will await your answers before proceeding. ..... Dharam, I hope I’ve clarified anything not so clear in my last post. it’s good to get all these points clear. I’ll look forward to proceeding further with other parts of the messages or with this one. Metta, Sarah ======= "Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? "Once the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in the Simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few Simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "How do you construe this, monks: Which are more numerous, the few Simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the Simsapa forest?" "The leaves in the hand of the Blessed One are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the forest are far more numerous." "In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them." Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. 19569 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:09am Subject: [dsg] Kamma was (Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Dear RobertK, It is amazing how the Law of Dependent Arising/Origination can be interpreted in so many ways. The ABHIDHAMMATTHA - SANGAHA, CHAPTER VIII - The Compendium Of Relations states that: http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_8.htm ------------------------------------------------- Herein this is the Law of the Dependent Arising. It should be understood that there are three periods, twelve factors, twenty modes, three connections, four divisions, three rounds, and two roots. ------------------------------------------------- The closest I can comprehend is the three rounds. It states: ------------------------------------------------- The three Rounds: 1. Ignorance, craving, and grasping belong to the Round of Passions; 2. One part of becoming (bhava) known as action and (moral and immoral) activities belongs to the Round of Kamma. 3. One part of becoming known as renewed existence (upapattibhava) and the rest belong to the Round of Effects. ------------------------------------------------- The reason why I think of mental feelings as new kamma is because these mental feelings always accompanies either the kusala or akusala citta. Nina said: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12382 ------------------------------------------------- When there is bodily pain, the painful feeling is vipaka, it accompanies the vipakacitta which experiences the object impinging on the body-sense. Unpleasant (mental) feeling may arise afterwards; it is not vipaka, but accompanies the akusala citta. It arises because of our accumulated dosa (aversion). Though 'bodily' feeling and 'mental' feeling are both nama, they are entirely different kinds of feelings, arising because of different conditions. When there are no more conditions for dosa there can still be bodily painful feeling, but there is no longer (mental) unpleasant feeling. The arahat may still have akusala vipaka as long as his life is not terminated yet, but he has no aversion. ------------------------------------------------- > Also even the vipaka citta has to have other conditions > to support it. It is never the only condition. I agree. An act of physical attack on Person B by Person A is not caused by Person B's past kamma. But the bodily feelings associated with Person B's injuries is certainly his/her own vipaka. Person A's decision to carry out the physical attack is a supporting condition for Person B's vipaka to arise. But Person B's past kamma did not cause Person A to make the decision to carry out the physical attack. The results of kamma is infinite, as is the beginning of this samsara. "These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about them would go mad & experience vexation. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha]... The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... The results of kamma... Speculation about [the first moment, purpose, etc., of] the cosmos is an imponderable that is not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these things would go mad & experience vexation." [AN IV.77] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19570 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Swee Boon Sorry for the delay in responding. The key terms in the passage you quote below are "insight into phenomena through heightened discernment" and "internal tranquillity of awareness". The Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (NDB), gives the following translations for these 2 expressions, together with explanatory material on their meaning from the commentaries, as given in a footnote: "higher wisdom of insight into things (adhi-panna-dhamma-vipassana)": insight knowledge discerning formations (sankhara-pariggaahaka-vipassana-nana) ... insight into the 'things' comprised by the five aggregates "internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam ceto-samatha)": concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana) (I give these because it is often virtually impossible to know the precise meaning of terms appearing in the suttas without reference to the commentaries.) I agree that this supports the assertion that samatha is not necessary for the development of panna/vipassana. I think it even goes a little further than that, in that the insight it refers to is actually at the level of vipassana-nana (perhaps the 'tender insight' levels -- Nina may be able to ad more here). Thanks for the reference. Jon --- "nidive " wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > An interesting analogy, James. But did the Buddha ever say that > > panna could not be developed without formal yogic meditation > > (whatever that may be)? > > I think the Buddha never said that. A supporting sutta would be (if > > I am not wrong): > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 > Samadhi Sutta > Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) > > "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena > through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of > awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained > internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the > mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should > it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will > answer > in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be > steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in > this > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will > become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness > > & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html > > > Regards, > NEO Swee Boon 19571 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Swee Boon --- "nidive " wrote: ... <> My understanding is somewhat different, namely, that right concentration must also be present at moments of mundane insight (or 'insight before the path'), as well as at (supramundane) path moments themselves. I believe that mundane insight moments are also called 'mundane path' moments and, as I mentioned in a post last week, are invariably accompanied by 5 mundane path factors, namely - wisdom/panna (samma-ditthi), right thinking/vitakka (samma-sangkappa), energy/viriya (samma-vayama), awareness/sati (samma-sati). concentration /ekaggata (samma-samadhi) Concentration is 1 of these 5 mundane path factors. There cannot be insight without there also being right concentration. So with each moment of insight the path factor of concentration is developed, as is the case with each of the other 4 path factors. <> I think on a closer look it becomes apparent that this sutta does not say that tranquility is necessary for the attainment of path consciousness. The key here is the expression 'clear knowing'. According to the notes to the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (NDB, p.280), the Pali term 'vijja' here means not only the attainment of enlightenment but also other knowledges (in the nature of powers) that are clearly the outcome of samatha bhavana. So the reference to tranquility could be accounted for by these other attainments. <> Agreed, as discussed in my post of a few minutes ago. <> I agree with your opening statement to this section, namely that "for the path (higher wisdom) to arise, besides insight, concentration is also necessary". But concentration and tranquility are not interchangeable expressions, and we need to be clear when the reference is to samatha bhavana (tranquility) and when it is to right concentration as a factor of insight/enlightenment. In the fourth case there is mention of concentration but not of tranquility so presumably that is a reference to right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path rather than samatha bhavana. Thanks for the great references, Swee Boon. I hope you find these comments interesting. Jon A IV, 170 On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html 19572 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:34am Subject: Re: (1) Citta As A Leader Dear KKT, Thanks for your question.Sorry for my reply late as after this heading there were a lot of posts and I had little chance to check back. I assume what you asked was ''Can Citta at least control itself?'' In this matter,no one can intrude our mind including supramundane beings.Citta leads all Nama-dhammas.The controlling power homes on Citta as it is the leader. Cetasikas advise citta,remind citta to control bad things and to encourage doing good things.But final decision is made by citta and then it leads all namadhammas. So,in simple term,yes,citta can control itself.One who knows his mind can well control his mind. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------- -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000 " wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing > " wrote: > > > < snip > > > > To cease sufferings and extinguish all the fire(Kilesas and > Sanyojanas),Citta needs to be trained diligently until the Highest > Panna is attained.As it is a leader,it can train itself and its > allied cetasikas as well.One can sense the existance of one's > Citta.So why not possible to lead oneself to a better living and > life.One should never be led by bad things and bad thought.Lead > yourselves.Behave yourselves.Citta is a leader and Citta is the > Leader. > > > > > KKT: You wrote: > > << it (ie. Citta) can train itself >> > > So Citta can << control >> (at least) itself? > > > Metta, > > > KKT 19573 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on Forest and Lone Dwelling Hi Jon, Thank you for your kind reply. I realized that the phrase "awareness-release" refers to the attainment of the jhanas. So the Suttas such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html are talking about the arahant with both awareness-release and discernment-release. They are meant for practitioners of the first type (released both ways), as in: > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html So I correct myself thus: Samatha (tranquility or jhana absorption) is not necessary for the development of insight or the arising of the path moment. But Right Concentration is necessary for the development of insight and the arising of the path moment. Right Concentration should be understood as: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-041.html Thank you, Jon, for bringing this "old" post up. This is a pretty confusing subject and it's not clear in my mind (partly due to the misunderstanding/ignorance of the translations used). I also have two questions to ask you, as explained below. Regarding the second type of arahant: "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html Ven. Henepola states that: ----------------------------------------------- The commentarial exegesis of this passage (found in the Majjhima Nikaya commentary) explains the procedure for developing serenity preceded by insight thus: Here, someone contemplates with insight the five aggregates of clinging as impermanent, etc. without having produced the aforesaid kinds of serenity (jhanic access and jhanic absorption); this is insight. With the completion of insight there arises in him mental one-pointedness having as object the renunciation of the phenomena produced therein; this is serenity. Thus first comes insight, afterwards serenity. In case it should be suspected that the second type of meditator still attains mundane jhana after developing insight, the subcommentary to the passage points out: "the mental one-pointedness he gains is right concentration of the supramundane path (magga- samma-samadhi) and its object, called 'renunciation' (vavassagga), is nibbana. The Anguttara subcommentary explicitly identifies the second meditator with the vipassanayanika: "He develops serenity preceded by insight': this is said with reference to the vipassanayanika". ----------------------------------------------- Question (1): Does the translation of "tranquility" in Anguttara Nikaya IV.170, refer to the "full mental absorption" of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path? How is this translation of "tranquility" different from that in: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-030.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-094.html Or am I too nitty-picky on these details? Sometimes it's pretty frustrating. Question (2): How is this second type of arahant (tranquility preceded by insight) different from the fourth type, that is: "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html I have also told you that this fourth type of arahant is elaborated in Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an03-100-1.html but you said that it is not. I still insist that it's an elaboration of the fourth type. "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings... "If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives... "If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- beings passing away and re-appearing... "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment- release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." Please compare the two descriptions carefully. It appears that even the fourth type is considered as having practised mundane jhanas. I understand these are very difficult questions to answer. But it still puzzles me. Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19574 From: nidive Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:30am Subject: Nina, please help me. Dear Nina & All, Please explain Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 in detail. Please explain the differences between the four types of arahants. On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html (1) develop insight preceded by tranquility This refers to arahants released both ways, right? The tranquility attained is that of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path. (2) develop tranquility preceded by insight This refers to arahants released by insight alone, right? The tranquility attained is that of the supramundane path only. (3) develop tranquillity in tandem with insight What does this mean? (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control What does this mean? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19575 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma,Perceiving it & Realisation Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply and encouragement.I am really sorry for that I could not find your reply and my delayed reply.After posted this heading,there were more than a hundred of posts and all were not related to my posts.So I simply deleted as I could not manage all and I stopped individual e-mail and that is why I could not find your reply,Sarah. Thanks to Suan,Sukin,Nina,Sujin,Herman and James for their interest in my topics.When I read through this reply,I realised that you (Sarah) have a good understanding in all and you are able to catch the point.There is no mistake in your reply.I am flawless and should anything unclear,misleading or confusing term or word or terminology occurred,let me know so that I can correct them and elucidate further. It will be quite difficult to place mind on the arammana ''Anicca'' but with a long practice we will manage to do that.Role of Panna in understanding all dhammas should not be underestimated.I am trying to convey understandable messages to all Dhamma-seekers and Dhamma Friends.When overall picture can be viewed well I will shift to practical matters later on.So far have I posted as a series are the following headings: 1.Anicca And Dhamma 2.Dhamma,Perceiving It & Realisation 3.(1)Citta As A Leader 4.(2)1.Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers 2. ,, 3 ,, 4. ,, 5. ,, I will try to post the practical matters later on after posting some headings to have a clear mental mapping of dhammas.All above 8 posts may contain argueable points.If so please all Dhamma Friends do not hesitate to post queries. Thanks in advance,Sarah, for your encouragement. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Htoo (& Suan), > > I'm really appreciating your comments and posts though I understand that > for others that the Abhidhamma details are an acquired or not to be > acquired taste;-) Like various delicacies at a buffet, we need to pick and > choose those that don't give us indigestion;-) > > I have several of your posts before me which I've following as you send > them. Sometimes I think there is a little difference in understanding and > then I find it is just a matter of terminology. I've found much of the > detail very helpful. > > Let me just raise a few points in no special order to clarify: > > --- "htootintnaing " > wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Dhamma is Dhamma.All the dhamma can be perceptible. > > > > All the dhamma means all the possible things perceptible through the > > watching windows of Six,including Pancadavara and Manodavara(mind- > > eye). > ..... > I believe that when you say "All the dhamma can be perceptible" you are > referring to the role of citta which experiences or cognizes all phenomena > - both realities and concepts (pannatti). I agree with your other comments > about citta being the `chief' in experiencing an object. We can read a lot > about this in the Atthasalini (Expositor). > > In another post you mentioned to someone that sa~n~na doesn't perceive and > that this is the role of citta. I think this may be a matter of > terminology. Usually sanna is translated as perception or > memory/remembrance, so it can lead to confusion if the term is used for > citta, I think. I agree these may be misleading terms to us and in an > earlier post, Suan made just your point and many more interesting ones in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/17264 > > I always meant to reply to it. One comment Suan made in this post was that > to use perception for citta is "in line with the use of the term > "perception" in the textbooks on psychology". Now I was trained in > psychology but I think there is little in common between the term as used > there and the role of citta, so I prefer not to try to equate them. I'm > also not sure I agree any more with Suan's use of `memory' as a > translation for sanna (it certainly doesn't equate with `memory' in > psychological use), though I appreciate his points about the use of memory > in the chapter in Pali grammar, he mentions. > > In Abhidhamma, realities like sanna have very specific functions, > manifestations and so on. Any terms are bound to be misleading. I did > agree with Suan's `mind or consciousness' for citta rather than `thought' > which as he explained is very misleading. Generally, I just use common > translations because at least people then know what Pali term is being > referred to, though I understand that for Pali scholars like Suan, this is > not a satisfactory solution. > > When you say "All the dhamma can be perceptible", I believe you therefore > mean that all dhammas are experienced (by cittas through 6 doorways > (`watching windows'), including pannatti. At first I misunderstood your > post to mean `can be kown', in which case, `dhammas' would not include > pannatti (concepts). This is later clarified in your post to James > (19093). > > I found your posts on rupas very helpful and I hope Rob M (an Abhidhamma > teacher in Malaysia) is following your posts on vithicitta (processes). > You gave some useful comments here on ekaggata cetasika (concentration): > > Htoo: "Concentration is just a lay term.Everyone can concentrate in some > ways.The dog concentrates at its > food.The monkey concentrates at bananas wherever.Erotically active > people concentrate on their > interests.Terrorists concentrate at their attack points.Thieves > concentrate on the disappearance of the > owners.Manslaughters concentrate the weakest points at men and > concentrate at these points. > > From Abhidhamma point of view,whenever citta occurs,Ekagatta > occurs.BUT Ekagatta in different > people and even in a person in different cittas behaves differently > in terms of power,purity and strength > even though its function is to fix at a point." > ***** > I think you're helping to clear up many points raised directly or > indirectly and I'll be delighted if you sweep through the archives doing > this;-) > > `Dhammas' can have different meanings in different contexts. In the post I > started off replying to, when you said "All the dhamma can be > perceptible", you were referring to realities and concepts. In your > `Anicca and Dhamma' post, when you say "All the Dhammas are subjected to > happening (Arising and wearing away)", you make it clear that you are not > referring to pannatti (concepts) here, just as the Buddha didn't. > > You clearly say "As all the things are Anicca, they cannot be managed with > chosen directions; so they will go on their own ways. So all the things > are Anatta (Non-self)". I like the way you explain this, but at the end of > the same post (19190), you say "Fix firmly in mind, "Anicca" "Anicca" > "Anicca". In another post you also say "One can sense the existence of > one's citta" and some other comment which prompted KKT to question whether > it was possible to `control' the mind after all. I think these were the > kind of comments Sukin was picking up on as well. Perhaps you are just > referring to the role of panna, understanding?? > > When you also say in the `anicca' post that "if one can always contemplate > all the dhammas as Anicca or Dukkha or anatta firmly in his mind, there > will be no attachment to them", I'd respectfully suggest that it's > impossible to `always contemplate...' and surely the aim is to begin to > understand realities, step by step, not just to think about > characteristics which are not yet known?? > > I was also going to mention about the `waving' and how surely it's not > always with ditthi. I see now that Nina has picked up this point too. I'm > glad to read your extra comments on the passages she is translating. You > may not have been around on DSG when she started this series at the > request of a few members. It is a series of rather complex points that > have been raised at the meetings of a group of teachers (at the Foundtion > where A.Sujin is based) in Bangkok in Thai. Nina was asked to translate > these into English. > > Finally, I'm looking at a letter you wrote to Herman. I really like the > way you stress " Jhana take mostly Pannatta-arammana. Pannatta > does not happen, it is not a real existence, it has no lifespan. That is > arammana." I like it because it is hard for many people to appreciate that > pannatti are not real and don't have a lifespan. You continue to explain > how cittas in jhana are the same without interruption which lead some > mistakenly to take them for being permanent "(Nicca-someone like > Bhaka-Brahma)". > > Thank you again for so many helpful posts and details, Htoo. As I said, I > personally found the way you set out the rupas and other dhammas helpful > and I also like the way you set out the `requirements' for different > experiences such as seeing, hearing etc to occur. > > Pls let me know if I've misunderstood any of your comments or if you ever > find any mistakes in any of my posts. I'm always happy to make > corrections;-) > > Anumodana, > > Sarah > ====== 19576 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma op 10-02-2003 02:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > Is intimation concept or reality? > Hi Larry, it is reality. Bodily intimation and speech intimation are rupas. Difficult? Yes it is. They are qualities of rupa, a certain change in the great Elements, as you have read. We cannot catch them, but we can have more understanding of them. We take them for self, for example, when you, in the office, elegantly make a gesture to a lady to let her pass ahead. Or in the car, you thank with your hand another driver for letting you pass. Or, the countless moments we are speaking: only nama and rupa. Here again we see the true purpose of the Abhidhamma: understanding realities as non-self. When insight is developed more, there is no doubt what Abhidhamma is, but even when beginning to develop understanding we can see: yes, this is Abhidhamma, all dhammas within oneself and outside. Subtle points of the Dhamma may not appeal to us at first. I had this experience when reading about Dhamma Issue 4: the four characteristics inherent in all rupas. Here it is explained that the duration of rupa is as long as 51 sub-moments of citta. We have heard about seventeen moments, but each citta can be subdivided into three moments: arising, presence and falling away. When reflecting on this subject I found that this is an extra reminder of the impermanence of rupa. Even in one rupa we have the characteristic of arising, continuation, decay and then falling away. There are many methods of teaching (remember Rahula), and each one stresses a certain point. I was just keeping to the Atthasalini, and did not realize other methods (naya). Another subtle point: space is a rupa, it has the function of separating all the different groups of rupas. It is the infinitesimal space surrounding each group. This was discussed when in Thailand. I wondered whether this can ever be experienced. As Num mentioned in his series of Patisambiddha, at the second stage of insight different khandhas are distinguished. As A. Sujin said, also groups of rupa and space delimiting groups of rupa can be experienced. This shows how coarse awareness is now, when touching something hard. Very useful to know what one does not know yet. No illusions. Before we learnt about bhavangacitta. I thought, can this be known? A. Sujin said, yes. An object impinges on one of the senses, but before that nothing impinges, it is like a gap, there is nothing. We do not try to catch it, but we can have more understanding of it. Abhidhamma is for development. Nina. 19577 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:03am Subject: Manual of Abh., new book. Dear friends, I just received from PTS a new book: Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and its co: Abhidhammatthavibhavini, in English. R. Gethin the translator quotes the original preface by Wijeratne who started this work, but who died before he could finish: Several of you will rejoice, I know. Jon, what is the atthayojana? Nina. 19578 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Way 48, Comm, Clear Comprehension op 10-02-2003 01:44 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the > Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, p. 61 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html > There are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of > purpose [satthaka sampajañña], of suitability [sappaya > sampajañña], of resort [gocara sampajañña], and of non-delusion > [asammoha sampajañña]. > The clear comprehension of the (mental) > resort which is called the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, > in going backwards and forwards on the alms resort and elsewhere, is the > clear comprehension of resort. Nina: gocara sampajañña, gocara is the object of right understanding. Any object appearing through the six doors, this is the kammatthana. As we read:< the subject of meditation that is unrelinquished, in going backwards and forwards>. Here, in this case, the monk does not sit, closes his eyes and concentrates. The monk is going about. We study the Co so that we have more understanding of what is implied in the sutta. I think we should not forget the sutta text when studying the commentary and frequently go back to it. I am inclined to forget this. Nina. 19579 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:04am Subject: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Dear Dhamma Friends, While sattas are in the planes of existance that have rupadhammas,all citta and cetasikas have to depend on rupadhamma with the exception of Patisandhi,Bhavanga and Cuticittas. Although citta is the leader,it has to depend on rupa,home on rupa and work on rupa.Citta uses Rupa As A Ladder for its maturity until it merges with the highest Panna and still has to home on rupa until Cuticitta of Parinibbana occurs,after which absolute peace (Nibbana) comes.Sotapattimaggacitta has to arise only when homing on Hadayavatthu.Without Hadayavatthu(Rupa as a ladder),Sotapattimaggacitta will never arises. All rupas have been described in the post headed as ''Dhamma,Perceiving It & Realisation''.Here is a summary again. 1.Pathavi(matter and its density) 2.Tajo(temperature) 3.Vayo(resiliency and forces in matters) 4.Cakkhupasada(eye) 5.Sotapasada(ear) 6.Ghanapasada(nose) 7.Jivapasada(tongue) 8.Kayapasada(body) 9.Rupa(sights) 10.Sadda(sounds) 11.Gandha(smell) 12.Rasa(taste) 13.Purisattabhavarupa(male characteristics) 14.Itthisattabhavarupa(female characteristics) 15.Hadayavatthu(the seat of Citta *****) 16.Ahara(Oja,nutrition) 17.Jivitarupa(life of rupa) 18.Apo(composibility,not water-Apo cannot be sensed) --- 19.Paricchedarupa(Akasa,space) 20.Kayavinatti(gesture) 21.Vacivinatti(speech) 22.Rupalahuta(lightness of rupa) 23.Rupamuduta(tenderness of rupa) 24.Rupakammannata(stability of rupa) 25.Upacayarupa(initial formation) 26.Sansati(developing rupa till fully mature one) 27.Jaratarupa(Becoming old) 28.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of rupa) Even though these sound a bit heavy,it worths to learn for understanding of later discussions. May you all have a good understanding in these rupas and use them as a ladder to pick up Sotapattimaggacitta. With Great Metta, Htoo Naing 19580 From: Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:59pm Subject: Way 49, Comm, Clear Comprehension 1 "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma Thera, Commentary, The Section on the Four Kinds of Clear Comprehension, no. 1, p. 61 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html Among these four kinds of clear comprehension, the clear comprehension of purpose is the comprehension of (a worthy) purpose after considering what is worthy and not worthy, with the thought, "Is there any use to one by this going or is there not?" One does this not having gone immediately, just by the influence of the thought, at the very moment the thought of going forwards is born. In this context, purpose is growth according to the Dhamma, by way of visiting a relic shrine, Tree of Enlightenment (Bodhi Tree), the Sangha, the elders, and a place where the dead are cast (a cemetery) for seeing the unlovely (a corpse, a skeleton and the like). By visiting a relic shrine, a Bodhi Tree, or the Sangha, for producing spiritual interest, and by meditating on the waning of that interest one could reach arahantship; by visiting elders and by getting established in their instruction one could reach arahantship; and by visiting a place where the dead are cast, by seeing a corpse there and by producing the first absorption (pathamajjhana] in that unlovely object, one could reach arahantship. So the visiting of these is purposeful. [Tika] "Arahantship". This is mentioned by way of the highest kind of exposition. Since the generating of quietude and insight too is growth according to the Dhamma for a bhikkhu. Some [keci] however say: Increase by way of material gain, too, is (a worthy) purpose, since material gain is helpful for the holy life. [T] "Some" = Dwellers at the Abhayagiri Vihara at Anuradhapura. [T] "Material gain" = Material requisites like robes. 19581 From: Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thunder & Lightning Hi Herman, I agree we can learn something about anatta by contemplating the deportment of wind and rain. The wind blows east or west and the rain falls down but whence the wind blows is completely different from how fast it blows and that the rain falls down is completely different from how much rain falls down. Similarly, when we run in the wind and rain, hunched-up against the rain, leaning into the wind, this is competely different from our state of mind. We can see this also when washing dishes. The way we hold our head and shoulders, swing our arms, step left and right, forward and back is separate and distinct from how we feel. This separateness is the heart of anatta, imo. But we don't need to cut off our arms and legs, or banish family members, in order to realize separateness. It is already the case. We can just look and see. Larry 19582 From: Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 3, Bodily Intimation and Abhidhamma Hi Nina, Are you saying that rupa is meaningful? If so, that would seem to contradict the difference between nama and rupa. Larry 19583 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Howard, I like this comment you put in your other post (to RobertK) H: “What interests me particularly in this is the amazing complexity involved: the multileveled, intricate ramifications of the conditioning-conditioned process. Not a simple matter, for sure!” ..... Let me add another quote by U Narada who translated the Patthana (Conditional Relations) into English: “In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed (sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta.” ***** --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree with most of the following points of yours, and those > about > which I have reservations are not dismissed in their entirety by me. ..... Good, I’m very glad to hear that we are so much in accord in these areas. ..... >The > ones > with which I have varying degrees of reservation about are (4) and (6). > My reservation about (4) is minor, namely that it is unknown to > me > whether the 24 relations constitute a complete and correct analysis. (I > do > not presume that the Patthana came directly from the Buddha.) ..... I’ll try not to belabour this point because as you say, your reservation is minor. From U Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations: “Although there are only 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,232 Patthana ”. “Not a simple matter, for sure!” as you say, regardless of the origins. U Narada further says in the Introduction to the Patthana transl: “...instead of simply arguing whether Patthana, which is part of Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not, this translated Text should be studied and understood. Then the facts should be tested as Patthana deals with all the causes and effects that arise and cease in the continuity of beings at every instant of the day. Only then will one be in a position to make a personal decision as to whether The Buddha expounded Patthana or not.” ..... Hmmm, I see it as a bit of a Catch-22. It takes some confidence to study the conditions in any detail and yet without some detailed study, one is bound to be sceptical.....maybe we can continue paddling near the shore and just take a plunge in the waves when there are conditions to do so;-) (U Narada also adds a section in the Introduction with references to the Abhidhamma teaching in the Suttanta and Vinaya. I can type this out (or part of it) if anyone is interested.) Miss Horner, in her foreward to this text, also discusses the disappearance of the Teachings: “In the Anagatavamsa and some of the Pali Commentaries it is stated that as time goes on and on the Buddha’s Dhamma will decay owing to five “disappearances” affecting its survival. In the “disappearance of learning”, the Great Patthana itself will decay first, other parts of the Pitaka following till all have fallen into oblivion..........They (the translators) believe that if Patthana can be understood in the West "as it really is" (yathaaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of the Abhidhamma-pitaka, of the Sutta-pitaka and of the Vinaya-pitaka will be assured also.” ..... (Nearly 30 years ago, by accident as I was looking for the address of the place to buy a PTS text or two, I ended up spending a delightful afternoon with Miss Horner in the library/sitting room of her home in London. I knew little at the time about all her great work for PTS and the translations of texts, but she inspired and encouraged me to study and she seemed so delighted to hear of my interest, being quite young at the time . She invited me to return, but I felt too shy to disturb her again. I know she'd be happy to know these texts are being discussed here.) ..... > My reservation about (6) is with the word 'predominantly'. I > don't > know this to be true generally. I don't doubt at all, however, that > one's own > kamma is a condition for the experiences you mention. The mere fact of > one's > being in the given realm of experience is a kammically conditioned > factor. ..... Just to repeat the point that you are referring to: Sarah “6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities predominantly conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception.” ..... I mentioned predominantly because there are always other factors involved, but when we read repeatedly in the suttas and elsewhere about kamma being the cause, it means, as I understand, that it is predominant, but not the only cause. For example, in the sutta I quoted from recently in AN about the different kinds of women (bk of 4s, (197))I wrote” “Queen Mallika asks “what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence ? and what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly...but rich, with great wealth and property, with great influence?...beautiful......with little influence?....beautiful....rich.....with great influence? The Buddha explains that some women are “irascible..irritable....loses her temper.....anger, hatred and resentent....................When she is reborn she is ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, with little influence.” Then it goes through the various permutations and of course the last one who never displays anger, who is generous, unenvious and so on is reborn beautiful, rich and with great influence.” ***** Leaving aside detailed Abhidhamma details for now, would you accept that in suttas such as this one, the causes implied are ‘predominantly’ those of kamma as far as the rupas and vipaka cittas concerned are involved? ..... H: > BTW, there is another sense in which I would say that ALL experience is > due > to kamma, but that sense includes not only one's *own* kamma, but also > the > kamma of other namarupic streams. (I see namarupic streams as not > isolated, > but interacting.) ..... Thanks for bringing this up. The ten principles were obviously not all-encompassing;-) I understand your point . I would say that not only is one’s *own* kamma a cause, also actions of others (as you suggest) and many other factors/condtions as well. In the 24 conditions enumerated, kamma condition is just one. Another condition is ‘decisive support condition’ which is divided into 3 kinds. The 3rd kind, natural decisive support condition is very broad and includes concepts. So for example, under this condition, the concept of a person can be a condition for attachment or metta, friends and books can be a condition for different kinds of study or influence. Dwelling places, climate and food are all discussed in the suttas as a condition for listening to the Teachings, eg in the Way, it mentioned the ‘perfect climate’ as a condition for the people of the Kuru country to be able to live healthily and happily listen to the Buddha. So even when we say that kamma is the decisive and powerful cause for vipaka cittas to arise, other conditions and factors, including actions of others, can also be very decisive as you suggest. I also understand very little about the intricacies and certainly the more I ‘paddle’or 'dabble' the deeper the complex web of conditions appears. I started off before by saying that kamma, supported by many other conditions produces vipaka cittas such as seeing or hearing. Htoo also mentioned in one of his series that in order for seeing to arise, there must be a)visible object, b) eye base, c) light and d) attention. We read further in the summaries on the Patthana that when eye consciousness and the related 7 mental factors arise, it is by way of 18 of the 24 conditions. I appreciate your careful consideration of all these matters, Howard and I think the open-minded checking and considering rather than any blind believing or counting of categories is the way to go. Somehow, your comments and points are always helpful for my own reflections (inc. a recognition of areas that are not clear to me) and a condition for me to pull out a few texts;-) I look forward to any further comments from you or anyone else. Nina, RobK, Kom or others may also add any additional comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 19584 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: (3)Rupa As A Ladder Hi Htoo Naing, > 28.Aniccatarupa(Disappearance of rupa) Can you explain more on this? Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19585 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:57am Subject: Discussion on Satipatthana at the Foundation week 5 no 1 -----------------------------Disclaimer------------------------- The following is an excerpt from regular discussion (in Thai) held at the Foudation, Bangkok, Thailand, Sunday afternoon. The subject of the discussion since early June 2002 has been, but not limited to, Satipatthana. Those that do not directly address the subject has been removed to keep coherency. It is Ell's intention to translate interesting (subjective?) passages from this discussion. I will try my best to keep this regular, but can't promise. :-) I am not a native speaker of English, and my friends now say that my Thai is 'strange', but I will try my best to relay the messages accurately as possible. Feedback highly appreciated.--jaran, jaranoh@y... (SarahA, this account is now active. ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------- (Week 5 is when it starts to interest me.) Best Regards, jaran :-) Week 5, July 7, 2002 Moderator: Before we continue, does anyone have any questions? Q: Why is taruna-vipassana considered cinta-~na~na? A: There are two levels of vipassana ~na~na: taruna vipassana (lit. beginning, young or weak) and palava vipassana (lit. stronger). Taruna-vipassana refers to the first three levels of vipassana ~na~na, namely, nama-rupa pariccheda~na~na, pacaya-parikkhaha ~na~na and samasana ~na~na. These are ``beginning'' or the ``weaker'' ~na~na. As a vipassana ~na~na arises to, say, clearly distinguish the characteristics of nama from that of rupa, in the case of nama-rupa pariccheda-~na~na, the subsequent moments of citta, consider or contemplate the vipassana ~na~na that has just fallen. The latter is not vipassana ~na~na; rather, it's a cinta ~na~na--the contemplation level of understanding. On the contrary, vipassana ~na~na from the 4th to the 12th levels, is of higher level of pa~n~na. This is called palava-vipassana; the characteristics of the higher level of understanding is apparent to the vipassana ~na~na itself. There is no ``contemplation'' arising between vipassana ~na~na's. Q: Regarding the contemplation between the vipassana ~na~na's, does it have pannatti, concept, as its object? KSupee: It is the same as that of the vipassana ~na~na... ASujin: ...it is a more skillful understanding. Q: ...more skillful understanding than just knowing the characteristics of nama and rupa? ASujin: Yes. We learn about citta, cetasika, rupa and sabhava dhammas that they are ``anatta'', but how much do we understand their meaning (attha). Do we understand their characteristics including their anatta-ness? It this enough? Of course, we all have to admit that it is never enough. It must always grow. Experiencing the characteristics of dhamma, it is not different from the ordinary at this moment. The important thing is the removal of the idea of Self when panna arises to discern the characteristics of dhamma. There are many levels of understanding. When listening to dhamma, we understand that there is dhamma: citta, cetasika and rupa having their characteristics to be studied. However, this is understanding of listening level; we don't know their characteristics despite the presence of dhamma now. Therefore, the more skillful understanding knows when listening level arises and knows that it does not ``chip away'' the idea of Self. Dhammas arise and fall away now, but do not appear to more skillful of panna until the arising of sati. When sati do not arise to be aware of dhamma, the dhamma are known by citta, and citta take them for beings and concepts or stories. It is like this to all of us now until the arising of sati to be aware of characteristics of that dhammas. The nature of each dhamma gradually appear to sati as dhamma is discerned by sati again and again (when there are right conditions) until they become clear to vipassana ~na~na via mano-dvara. We must have the right understanding of the teachings and Path. When sati arises to be aware of characteristics of paramattha-dhamma, we know that there is nothing we can cause anything to arise or fall way. Otherwise, we try to ``do'' something to end suffering or to know the dhamma. ...when sati arises, the panna realizes that it is different from the moments without sati. There is no need to discuss how many cetasika, but the quality dhamma is apparent no matter how much or how little. And from that moment gradually sati is aware of and panna understand the quality of dhamma as satipatthana re-occur when there are right conditions. 19586 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana practice and life Transformed Hi Smallchap, Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still around. --- "smallchap " wrote: > > I have been practising anapana/vipassana for about 18 years. It has > not transformed my life. Life goes on as usual for me. I have not > transformed others' lives too through vipassana. Lives go on as > usual for them too. > > :) ..... I smiled a lot when I read these comments.....yes, life has to go on as usual for all of us. Looking for some kind of transformation can be a mistake I think and is usually just an indication of more lobha and desire for some special results. > > smallchap > p.s. I consider life transform to be from a puthujjana to an ariya. ..... Good answer! I'm waiting for Dinesh's response..... Metta, Sarah ====== > 19587 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:50am Subject: More on Kamma (was: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women) Hi Eddie, I think this may have been your first message on DSG (sometimes I’m not sure;-)). Anyway, welcome either way and thanks for posting some interesting comments: --- Eddie Lou wrote: > All based on some kind of Karmic energy level still to > be discovered by science. > all our action (kamma) come into played and everything > is accountable and no administrator all automatic as > in the law of conservation of energy or other physical > laws. ..... This reminded me of some further comments U Narada makes in “Guide to Conditional Relations” based on commentary notes to the Patthana, concerning kamma condition. ‘Asynchronous kamma’ refers to “the volition which produces a result at a different instant of time” as opposed to conascent kamma or cetana which does not bring results. “.....Although an asynchronous faultless or faulty volition arises for one thought-moment and then ceases, this is not the end of it. For a special force is left behind in the mind’s successive continuity so that at some time in the future, the appropriate result of that volition will be produced when the proper conditions are satisfied.............” He gives a helpful example from the Paticcasamuppada-vibhanga commentary: “A person borrows money from another. This act of borrowing is finalised and ceases as soon as the money is received by the borrower. But because the money was borrowed, there is the indebtedness to repay the loan either in a lump sum or in instalments. The borrower has to abide by his promise to repay and this cannot be avoided by any means. The main concern here is not whether there has been the past act of borrowing or not, but the responsibility to repay the loan. Only when the whole amount has been paid will there be relief from this responsibility. In a similar way, when an act of kamma is performed, the kamma, before it ceases, leaves behind a special force of asynchronous kamma condition which will, at some time in the future, produce an appropriate result when the conditions for its arising are satisfied. And as long as the result is not produced this indebtedness to kamma in the round of rebirths is ever present. The main concern here is not whether there has been the past act of kamma or not, but the indebtedness which will surely produce a result. But once a result is produced, the indebtedness to kamma no longer holds and no other result will be brought about because of this particular kamma. But if there is no opportunity for a result to be produced, ie kamma is no longer effective (ahosi kamma), then the force of volition ceases.” Later we read: “There is no place where materiality and mentality are stored for their continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just as when a match is struck a flame appears from nowhere and then disappears, so also, when object and base coincide consciousness and mental factors arise from nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease and vanish altogether. In this condition, volition, which is also an ultimate reality, also arises and ceases in the same fashion. “However, the force, which is left behind after volition ceases, is not destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in the successive continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and wrong views, to produce a result suddenly. The result cannot be foreseen and seems to be spontaneous. Indeed these forces give strange results. As instances, all of a sudden 1) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes rich and 2) presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are assassinated or gaoled.” ***** Hope to hear more from you Eddie and if you’d care to add any info about yourself, where you live or about your interest in Buddhism, we’d all be glad to hear. With metta, Sarah ====== 19588 From: nidive Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi Sarah (& Howard), I have read this "Did they deserve it?" thread. I got a "shock" when Howard said this to me in one of the previous posts: > Yes - eye, ear, tongue, body, and mind are all old kamma. And, > yes, the attack one makes with one's body, speech, or intellect on > another is new kamma. That attack is not necessarily at all the > vipaka of one's victim; the kammic debt is one's own, and there is > usually no legitimate justification to be made in term's of the > kamma of the victim. The degree of involvement of the victim's > kamma as condition for the attack on that victim can range from > considerable to none, it is generally unknown, and, except when > crystal clear, it should not be presumed in one's "moral > computations". At least that is how I see the matter. It is to my understanding that the Buddha never taught that Person B's unarisen vipaka is the cause of Person A's new kamma. Person A's new kamma is caused by his/her own attachment, aversion and ignorance. Person A's new kamma merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for Person B's unarisen vipaka to arise. I don't see any connection between Person B's unarisen vipaka being the cause of the decision by Person A to carry out the attack. Therefore, in the case of the victims of 911 in that article, the carrying out of the attack on the Twin Towers by the terrorists merely provided the necessary ingredient/condition for the unarisen vipaka (think of destructive kamma) of the victims to arise. But the unarisen vipaka of the victims did not cause the decision by the terrorists to carry out the attack. That decision is caused by the terrorists' attachment, aversion and ignorance. I do hope you explain more on this if possible. And I don't see how I am wrong when I say that our very existence is simply kamma. Or should I say "our very existence is predominantly kamma"? I equate kamma as samsara. RobertK said: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19564 --------------------------------------------- > Dependent on vipaka vatta, there arises kilesa vatta; > and dependent on kilesa vatta, there arises kamma vatta. {added by me} > (and dependent on kamma vatta, there arises vipaka vatta.) > The revolution of these three vattas has being and is occuring > continually throughout samasara vatta. --------------------------------------------- (1) If kamma vatta ceases, vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) and kilesa vatta ceases. (2) If kilesa vatta ceases, kamma vatta and vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) ceases. (3) If vipaka vatta (renew existence / becoming) ceases, kilesa and kamma vatta ceases. An arahant is no longer bound to the revolution of these three vattas because his cittas (during javana) are kiriya-cittas. From the perspectives of (1), (2) and (3), our very existence revolves around kamma; our very existence is kamma. "Swee Boon" is nothing but kamma that has the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Such is this compounded thing called "Swee Boon". Regards, NEO Swee Boon 19589 From: robmoult Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:28am Subject: I'm Back! Hi All, After a long break, I'm back to the DSG. I may not be posting as frequently as in the past (work is piling up), but I will be participating again. Metta, Rob M :-) 19590 From: Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/12/03 3:42:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I like this comment you put in your other post (to RobertK) > > H: “What interests me particularly in this is the > amazing complexity involved: the multileveled, intricate ramifications of > the conditioning-conditioned process. Not a simple matter, for sure!â€? > ..... > Let me add another quote by U Narada who translated the Patthana > (Conditional Relations) into English: > > “In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed > (sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a break and > which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These > states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the > will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but > from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical > Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of anatta.â€? > ***** > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I agree with most of the following points of yours, and those > >about > >which I have reservations are not dismissed in their entirety by me. > ..... > Good, I’m very glad to hear that we are so much in accord in these areas. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are especially in accord in the recognition of what a brilliant and extraordinarily complex work the Abhidhamma is. I wish I had the opportunity to peruse the Abhidhamma Pitaka, itself, in English, and not just synopses or little finger manuals, or commentaries. I strongly suspect I would gain from that. While I think it very unlikely the Abhidhamma Pitaka (or, rather, what was there incorporated) was the direct work of the Buddha, I still consider it of immense value. --------------------------------------------------- > ..... > >The > >ones > >with which I have varying degrees of reservation about are (4) and (6). > > My reservation about (4) is minor, namely that it is unknown to > >me > >whether the 24 relations constitute a complete and correct analysis. (I > >do > >not presume that the Patthana came directly from the Buddha.) > ..... > I’ll try not to belabour this point because as you say, your reservation > is minor. > > From U Narada’s Guide to Conditional Relations: “Although there are only > 24 main divisions, there are in all 129,232 Patthana relations>â€?. > > “Not a simple matter, for sure!â€? as you say, regardless of the origins. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. ---------------------------------------------- > > U Narada further says in the Introduction to the Patthana transl: > > “...instead of simply arguing whether Patthana, which is part of > Abhidhamma, was expounded by The Buddha or not, this translated Text > should be studied and understood. Then the facts should be tested as > Patthana deals with all the causes and effects that arise and cease in the > continuity of beings at every instant of the day. Only then will one be > in a position to make a personal decision as to whether The Buddha > expounded Patthana or not.â€? > ..... > Hmmm, I see it as a bit of a Catch-22. It takes some confidence to study > the conditions in any detail and yet without some detailed study, one is > bound to be sceptical.....maybe we can continue paddling near the shore > and just take a plunge in the waves when there are conditions to do so;-) > > (U Narada also adds a section in the Introduction with references to the > Abhidhamma teaching in the Suttanta and Vinaya. I can type this out (or > part of it) if anyone is interested.) > > Miss Horner, in her foreward to this text, also discusses the > disappearance of the Teachings: > > “In the Anagatavamsa and some of the Pali Commentaries it is stated that > as time goes on and on the Buddha’s Dhamma will decay owing to five > “disappearancesâ€? affecting its survival. In the “disappearance of > learningâ€?, the Great Patthana itself will decay first, other parts of the > Pitaka following till all have fallen into oblivion..........They (the > translators) believe that if Patthana can be understood in the West "as it > really is" (yathaaabhuuta), a means of keeping it alive for an additional > length of time will have been achieved; hence the survival of the rest of > the Abhidhamma-pitaka, of the Sutta-pitaka and of the Vinaya-pitaka will > be assured also.â€? > ..... > (Nearly 30 years ago, by accident as I was looking for the address of the > place to buy a PTS text or two, I ended up spending a delightful afternoon > with Miss Horner in the library/sitting room of her home in London. I knew > little at the time about all her great work for PTS and the translations > of texts, but she inspired and encouraged me to study and she seemed so > delighted to hear of my interest, being quite young at the time . She > invited me to return, but I felt too shy to disturb her again. I know > she'd be happy to know these texts are being discussed here.) > ..... > > My reservation about (6) is with the word 'predominantly'. I > >don't > >know this to be true generally. I don't doubt at all, however, that > >one's own > >kamma is a condition for the experiences you mention. The mere fact of > >one's > >being in the given realm of experience is a kammically conditioned > >factor. > ..... > Just to repeat the point that you are referring to: > > Sarah “6. Seeing, hearing and so on, are examples of actualities > predominantly > conditioned by kamma. Certain rupas are also kamma produced, eg > masculinity/femininity, from the first moment of conception.â€? > ..... > I mentioned predominantly because there are always other factors involved, > but when we read repeatedly in the suttas and elsewhere about kamma being > the cause, it means, as I understand, that it is predominant, but not the > only cause. For example, in the sutta I quoted from recently in AN about > the different kinds of women (bk of 4s, (197))I wroteâ€? > > “Queen Mallika asks “what is the cause and reason why some women here are > ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with little wealth, > with little influence ? and > what is the cause and reason why some women here are ugly...but rich, with > great wealth and property, with great influence?...beautiful......with > little influence?....beautiful....rich.....with great influence? > > The Buddha explains that some women are “irascible..irritable....loses her > temper.....anger, hatred and resentent....................When she is > reborn she is ugly, ill formed, unsightly, and also poor, destitute, with > little wealth, with little influence.â€? > > Then it goes through the various permutations and of course the last one > who never displays anger, who is generous, unenvious and so on is reborn > beautiful, rich and with great influence.â€? > ***** > Leaving aside detailed Abhidhamma details for now, would you accept that > in suttas such as this one, the causes implied are ‘predominantly’ those > of kamma as far as the rupas and vipaka cittas concerned are involved? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would. While I consider personal kamma a factor in most mental states, but varying in importance from state to state, I certainly consider it predominant in the matter of the realm and conditions of birth. More generally, I consider it the *single* most telling condition for most of our experiences, but still almost always a "minority stock holder" because of the sheer number of conditions involved in toto. Now, in specific situations, such as assault of a person by another, the sequence of mental events in the one attacked that can be specifically associated with that conventional event, as opposed to those mental states that are reactive (or even just affective in the sense of vedana), are seen by me as states for which personal kamma is less than a predominant player. To speak less formally, I mainly blame the attacker for the attack, and not the one attacked, and I think that any analysis that points in the opposite direction is flawed. -------------------------------------------------- > ..... > > H: >BTW, there is another sense in which I would say that ALL experience > is > >due > >to kamma, but that sense includes not only one's *own* kamma, but also > >the > >kamma of other namarupic streams. (I see namarupic streams as not > >isolated, > >but interacting.) > ..... > Thanks for bringing this up. The ten principles were obviously not > all-encompassing;-) > > I understand your point . I would say that not only is one’s *own* kamma a > cause, also actions of others (as you suggest) and many other > factors/condtions as well. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you *do* understand my point. --------------------------------------------------- > > In the 24 conditions enumerated, kamma condition is just one. Another > condition is ‘decisive support condition’ which is divided into 3 kinds. > The 3rd kind, natural decisive support condition is very broad and > includes concepts. So for example, under this condition, the concept of a > person can be a condition for attachment or metta, friends and books can > be a condition for different kinds of study or influence. Dwelling places, > climate and food are all discussed in the suttas as a condition for > listening to the Teachings, eg in the Way, it mentioned the ‘perfect > climate’ as a condition for the people of the Kuru country to be able to > live healthily and happily listen to the Buddha. > > So even when we say that kamma is the decisive and powerful cause for > vipaka cittas to arise, other conditions and factors, including actions of > others, can also be very decisive as you suggest. I also understand very > little about the intricacies and certainly the more I ‘paddle’or 'dabble' > the deeper the complex web of conditions appears. > > I started off before by saying that kamma, supported by many other > conditions produces vipaka cittas such as seeing or hearing. > > Htoo also mentioned in one of his series that in order for seeing to > arise, there must be a)visible object, b) eye base, c) light and d) > attention. We read further in the summaries on the Patthana that when eye > consciousness and the related 7 mental factors arise, it is by way of 18 > of the 24 conditions. > > I appreciate your careful consideration of all these matters, Howard and I > think the open-minded checking and considering rather than any blind > believing or counting of categories is the way to go. Somehow, your > comments and points are always helpful for my own reflections (inc. a > recognition of areas that are not clear to me) and a condition for me to > pull out a few texts;-) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, that's amazing! ;-)) But I'm pleased that it is so. ------------------------------------------------ > > I look forward to any further comments from you or anyone else. Nina, > RobK, Kom or others may also add any additional comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19591 From: Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] I'm Back! Hey, Rob! Great to hear from you!! Welcome back. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 2/12/03 9:29:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi All, > > After a long break, I'm back to the DSG. > > I may not be posting as frequently as in the past (work is piling > up), but I will be participating again. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 19592 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] "Karma: Did they Deserve It?" Dear Howard & All, This is just my own musings/rambling.... > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > To speak less formally, I > mainly blame the attacker for the attack, and not > the one attacked, and I > think that any analysis that points in the > opposite direction is flawed. > -------------------------------------------------- > The V. Mahamogallana at the end of his life was beaten to death by the robbers. He is said to escape the robbers for 7 different times (with his supernormal power). In the end, it is said he knew that he could not escape the results of his kamma. From abhidhamma perspective, some cittas in the 5 sense door processes are (always) results of kamma, the same kamma if within the same process. These vipaka cittas are also conditioned by other factors (place where one live, which existence one is born into, which stature, etc.), but without the kamma committed in the past, these cittas cannot possibly arise. Regarding blaming the receiver or the doer, how could we blame anybody except the kamma (volition)? With the bad kamma, bad results are (almost) certain to arise. This is why we shouldn't only be shameful of akusala states, we should also fear what they bring. But as long as the kandhas continue to exist, there are conditions for the undesirable vipaka to arise. The Buddha, the supreme accumulator of all wholesome states, received the results of bad kamma even after he has become enlightened: nobody escapes the results of kamma. Our akusala states are predominantly conditioned by our own accumulations and latent kilesa. The arahant has no such states because he has already eradicated the latent kilesa. The akusala states are not directly conditioned by the past kamma: this is true within ourselves as in others. Akusala is akusala, kusala is kusala, and vipaka is vipaka. I don't think I deserve the bodily pain that I am experiencing either, but here I am... kom 19593 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:04am Subject: Calm and Insight. Henepola. Dear Swee Boon, I have been following all your interesting studies of this subject. I also studied the book by Ven. Henepola, I have it here at hand. It is well documented in the suttas, and I studied those. If you like to refer to the book, it is easier for me if you mention the page no. When in Rangoon, our friend U Nyun gave me The Manuels of Buddhism by Ledi Sayadaw. He explained very well conditions. This subject is heavy stuff, so I would like to discuss this in small sections. Better not more than one sutta at a time, this is much better for me. This subject is, as you said, worth discussing, and I think not in one Email only. I prefer books to links, sometimes suttas are hard to find from the link heading. This time Yuganaddha, coupled or in tandem: your questions, I would say, see below, the Commentary. (1) develop insight preceded by tranquility This refers to arahants released both ways, right? The tranquility attained is that of both the mundane jhana and the supramundane path. (2) develop tranquility preceded by insight This refers to arahants released by insight alone, right? The tranquility attained is that of the supramundane path only. (3) develop tranquillity in tandem with insight What does this mean? (4) restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control What does this mean? The Co explains that "the Way" (in your tran the Path) is the first stage of enlightenment. As to the second factor, the monk is already used to developing insight and then samadhi arises. As to the third factor, he is aware and considers the sankharas, jhanafactors, in between the different stages of jhana he enters and emerges from. As to the fourth factor, he has abandoned the ten defilements of vipassana. He does not cling to samatha nor to vipassana. no 1, as you see: first stage only. 2: I do not think so. I learnt recently in Bgk: 4 is sukkha vipassana, it concerns mundane development. And: in the Patisambiddha the chapter on yuganaddha: here it concerns lokuttara maggacitta. Then samatha and vipassana are a pair and none exceeds the other. Nibbana is the object. Next time we can discuss Gradual S IV, 41 or points from above mentioned books. Forgive me if I delay in answering, this is by force of circumstances. Looking forward, Nina 19594 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:48pm Subject: [dsg] Cula Satapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Smallchap, > > Good to see you posting after a looong break;-);-)So glad you're still > around. Glad that you still remember me. I am always around, lurking. ;) > Good answer! I read about Cula Satapana will not be reborn in the four lower realms. I welcome comments from you and list members on who is a cula sotapanna. "To understand Dependent Origination or to gain Knowledge in comprehending the Law of Causality enables one to discard the three aforesaid Wrong Views of No-cause, Unjustified Cause of Creation, and misleading belief in past-kamma alone. In fact this Knowledge equips one to be a virtuous one, ever freed from the ignoble destinies of the Four Lower Worlds, a Cula-sotapanna, a future-stream-winner' - so the Commentaries say. Hence a goal well worth striving for." -- The Manual of Light, Ledi Sayadaw smallchap 19595 From: smallchap Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cula Sotapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Correction! Satapanna should read sotapanna. smallchap 19596 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Ken, You described it really good, that is what exactly I have read in one of the books. It is said (or Buddha said?) if we can pile up all the skeletons from all the lives we have been through, it will be a high mountain. The criss-crossing of our life paths among us is incredibly or uncountably many. Now back to the title topic, It could be related to one event when Buddha (he always help those the extremes - the worst and the best and not in between average one may be too many of them) found one (his relative?) was v ery close to Nirvana and also close to marriage to a young girl. So Buddha intervened to dissuade him from any marriage by painting a negative picture of girls or women. Buddha took him to deva world and showed him some ugly female monkeys and beautiful devas. Buddha asked him to compare all these with his wife to be. He was told that Nirvana when attained is better these or any other things. He was finally dissuaded and I think attain nirvana. I would like to hear any comments on this possibility of the relationship to this title topic. --- "kenhowardau " wrote: > > Hi Herman, Howard and James, > > > I agree with your comments about blaming the victim; > I should have > chosen my words more carefully. > > > No doubt, a Buddha knows the precise workings of > kamma/vipaka but he > also knows the world as mere fleeting phenomena. So > he knows that in > reality, there is no victim to blame. > > > I think another way to be less inclined towards > praising and blaming > is to remember the nature of samsara. As I > understand it, the wheel > of birth and rebirth has been turning for > uncountable aeons; we must > all have been at the top occasionally [as gods], at > the bottom > occasionally [as demons], and we must have been just > about everywhere > in between. (I can't quote any references for > this.) > > > If this is right, then each of us has committed > every possible crime > many times over; today's saint is yesterday's > villain and vice > versa. We're all in the same boat, all on the same > giant ferris > wheel, it's meaningless to praise one person and > blame another. > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H 19597 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cula Satapanna (was: Vipassana practice and life Transformed) Dear Smallchap, > -----Original Message----- > From: smallchap > "To understand Dependent Origination or to gain > Knowledge in > comprehending the Law of Causality enables one to > discard the three > aforesaid Wrong Views of No-cause, Unjustified > Cause of Creation, and > misleading belief in past-kamma alone. In fact > this Knowledge equips > one to be a virtuous one, ever freed from the > ignoble destinies of > the Four Lower Worlds, a Cula-sotapanna, a > future-stream-winner' - so > the Commentaries say. Hence a goal well worth > striving for." -- The > Manual of Light, Ledi Sayadaw > I found one (Thai) commentaries (maybe there are others, but cula can be spelled so many different way in Thai) to the Abhidhamma Pitaka (Vibhanga), Satipatthana Vibhanga. Here's a rough translation (from Thai): after explaining Nama-Rupa Paricheta Nana (nama-rupa distinction) in the previous paragraph: ... The Bikkhu then considers that nama-rupa doesn't arise by itself, but arises because of conditions. What then are the conditions of nama and rupa? So he learns the conditions of nama and rupa [as it truly is, directly], and know nama-rupa arises because of ignorance (avijja), because of attachment (tanha), because of volition (kamma), and because of nutrition (ahara). He then crosses the doubt across the 3 time (kala): past, future, and present, that only conditions, and the dhamma arising out of conditions, arise. There is no satta (animal) or person (puggala) [beyond this]: this is only conditioned piles [sankhara kandhas?]. This vipassana [nana] has sankhara dhamma as its object, thus it is named Yataparinna. When the Bikkhu learns thus, he is said to have been established in the foundation of the Buddha's Dispensation. He is established, he has reached what can be relied on. His rebirth is certain [it doesn't say exactly what this is, but from the context, this is implied, and this phrase may have been explained earlier]. .. The brackets above are my additions, and the parentheses are the Thai-Pali words directly used in the commentarial translation (in Thai). You can hope that the person explaining the Vibhanga has profound wisdom, perhaps even more than a cula-sotapanna. kom ps: I think we can see that this is a clear comprehension (wisdom) that is beyond hearing or consideration wisdom: this is vipassana nana. 19598 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women Dear Eddie & Ken, Here's the sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3-02.h tml V. Nanda is praised by the Buddha to be one who excelled in protecting the faculties. kom ps: I can appreciate the saying that the Buddha is the tamer of all men who can be tamed in this sutta. I don't see how it is related to the titled topic. It is normal: there is always a better looking/sounding/smelling/tasting/tangible thing. Don't we look all our lives for these things? > -----Original Message----- > From: Eddie Lou [mailto:eddielou_us@y...] Weight Age Gender Female Male 19599 From: Sarah Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Conditions and Bangkok Meeting Apr 25th (was: I'm Back!) Hi RobM (& Anyone in reach of Bangkok at end of post), --- "robmoult " wrote: > Hi All, > > After a long break, I'm back to the DSG. > > I may not be posting as frequently as in the past (work is piling > up), but I will be participating again. ..... You've been missed.....I hope you have a chance to catch up soon. Pls let us know sometime how your Abhidhamma lectures and Notes are going and direct us to anything we should be looking at. While you're looking in, I thought of you when I was quoting from U Narada's "Guide to Conditional Relations". This book from PTS is an introduction with commentary notes to the Patthana itself and I've always found it very helpful. I know you would too. In the preface, it talks about the sense-door and mind-door processes and gives a footnote. In the footnote, U Narada says "The mental processes were not made up by the commentators. They took them from proximity condition of the Patthana expounded by the Buddha. These mental processes are dealt with in the proximity condition of this Guide." As stated, under Proximity Condition (Anantara Paccaya) and Contiguity condition (Sammanantara Paccaya), the processes are detailed along with the details discussed before about attainment of extinction, anagami and arahant fruition consciousness, rupa planes and so on (to indicate that proximity condition is not destroyed 'by the intervention of materiality'. "According to the fixed order of the mental process , the preceding consciousnesses are related to the subsequent consciousnesses by the force of proximity condition. this is expounded as "Preceding states are related to subsequent states.' Also, it is only after the preceding consciousness ceases that the subsequent consciousness arises. Therefore, the former is of the past and the latter is of the present. This difference in time of the two thought-moments is expounded as 'Past state is relate to present state by proximity condition.' all such knowledge can be ascribed only to omniscience." ***** If you'd like me to quote any other details from the Guide or to check in the Patthana itself, let me know. It also gives the details of the arahant's death consciousness which may be of interest to others. Again I can add more details, but in conclusion: "And since there is no rebirth after the Arahatta's death-consciousness, the latter can never be a conditioning state. that is why, although the beginning of samsara cannot be known, as pointed out above, there is an end to it. This is the Arahatta's death-consciousness." ================================= Rob, you mentioned to me that you were hoping to join us in Bangkok for discussion with K.Sujin on Friday Apr 25th. I'm mentioning it here (hope you don't mind) well in advance in case anyone else (Rob K, Chris, KC, Swee Boon,Paul,Jaran????) is free to join in addition to those already there. Jon and I will be staying until Sunday, so we'll also be joining discussions on the Sat. If anyone wants more detail, pls contact me off-list. (Jon will also be in Adelaide, Australia in a couple of weeks if anyone is in that region;-)) Metta, Sarah ========