21600 From: yasalalaka Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:44am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Dear Rob, Thankyou, for commenting on my post. You say well, what you have to say, and that is encouraging. Yes, about the suddenness of panna. It happens not necessarily when you begin to lay down. That I quoted as an example not to say that it is while laying down you can get panna ! Wisdom (panna) can arise at any moment. For that the mind has to be extremely clear and alert. A mind which reaches samadhi and absorbs jhana, have this characteristic. Even without that high level of samadhi, perhaps you may have, yourself, experienced this quick alertness, say while " comfortably seated, typing on the keyboard, keep your back straight, close your eyes and watch your breath....as it comes in slowly ...and goes out slowly, you may see the space in the mind undisturbed by fleeting thoughts."......that is just a few seconds of samadhi....The story of Venerable Ananda is very significant. It is not the learning and knowledge, but assiduous, meditation, that finally gave him the break through. There are so many stories like the two I related, about attaining freedom in a quick moment. There is the story of the Bikkhu, who was given a white peace of cloth to roll and unroll on the palms of his hands and when the cloth became dirty in its being rolled and unrolled, realised the anicca, dukkha and anatma. At the first sermon of the Buddha, Kondanna, became a stream entrant. Even the Buddha after six years of striving sat at the Bodhi tree, and that night he was enlightened. It is the clear understanding of the three lakkhana, that paves the path to freedom. In Zen a master gives a pupil who has meditated long enough, when the hour is propitious a koan, which is an" absurdity". The pupil, concentrates on the koan turning it over in his mind, and suddenly understands it. And the master knows when he has attained satori. That is said to be satori. It is meditation that leads to it , the " ekayano maggo". These are all within paramatta dhamma. When the mind goes beyond "self " it is illuminated by itself... with metta, Yasalalaka 21601 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:12am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" . Ananda achieved enlightenment as he > began lay down. Does that mean that beginning to lay down is the > technique to achieve enlightenment? No. After spending almost his > entire adult life listening to the Buddha and memorizing every word > the Buddha said, conditions and Ananda's accumulations were ripe for > the event of enlightenment to occur. > >_________ Good points, RobM. The commentary to the Mahanidana sutta (Bodhi page 63) notes that learning was to "repeatedly studying the texts under revered teachers, listening to explnations of their meaning, questioning about knotty points and retaining in mind their meaning." It says "for those who are highly learned, namarupaparichedda nana (distinguishing of nama and rupa) becomes as evident as a bed and chair in a small room illuminted by a lamp, and Ananda was chief of those who are highly learned." It also explains his great parami from past lives; such as 100,000 aeons of time ago, when he aspired to be become the personal attendant of a Buddha. "..thus he was endowed with decisive supporting conditions (pubekata punnata )from the past..".. RobertK 21602 From: nidive Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Victor & Jon, > I would say that what is assembled is impermanent. > > This is how I see it: > Clinging to concept leads to dukkha. Seeing concept thus: "This is > impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." one grows dispassionate toward concept. Yes, I agree. But some say that concepts cannot be "directly known". If so, how do we know that concepts are impermanent? But it is a fact that I do know that concepts are impermanent. They are fabricated things. They are born of fabrications. They depend on fabrications. They have no real essence outside of the ultimate realities of fabrications. Thus they are impermanent, dukkha, not-self. Swee Boon 21603 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:28am Subject: Hi!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dear James, I am so sorry I didn't type to you for so long!!!!!!! I spent most of my Easter holidays in San Francisco!!!!!!! Thank you for answering my questions!!!! But, here are some new ones: Are there Buddhist temples in Egypt? Do you like learning about Buddhism? Is learning the Arabic language something like the Buddha's special language that you explained to me before? Well that is it!!!!!! Metta, Janice 21604 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:30am Subject: Hi Again!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Kom, Sorry I did not write to you for so long as I spent most of my time in San Francisco during my Easter holidays!!!!! I think you are right about the statement that if you do not pay attention about something scary then you would not remember or think about it. Here are some questions: Did the Buddha die because of illness or sacrificed himself? What is the dhamma anyways? How does mindfulness help you when you are frustrated or if you cannot solve a problem? That is it for now!!!!!! Metta, Janice 21605 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:33am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Rob M, I agree that "Seeing things as they truly are" does not mean analyzing the current citta and listing the concomittant cetasikas. I would say that analyzing mind states in and of itself does not help one understands, intellectually or otherwise, the truth of anatta. Each mind state is not self. Each mind state is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." And that is not the same as trying to see, intellectually or otherwise, that mind state has no self by analyzing it. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi KKT, > [snip] > > "Seeing things as they truly are" does not mean analyzing the > current citta and listing the concomittant cetasikas. "Seeing things > as they truly are" means having a habit of reacting to what is > presented to us based on the object being anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > If we like what we see, this is fertile soil for lobha to take root. > If we dislike what we see, this is fertile soil for dosa to take > root. If we ignore what we see, this is fertile soil for moha to > take root. The kind of soil that does not allow lobha, dosa or moha > to take root is seeing what is presented to us as anicca, dukha and > anatta. > > So then, why do we spend all this time learning lists of cetasikas? > Analyzing mind states helps us intellectually understand the truth > of anatta. We break the mind state into citta and so many cetasikas > and can see intellectually that none of the pieces has any "self". > It therefore makes sense that, since none of the components has > any "self", the whole has has no "self". > [snip] > What if Anuruddha got it wrong? What is there are not exactly 52 > cetasikas? Frankly, I don't consider this a big deal. What is > important is seeing mental states as non-self and supporting an > intellectual understanding of non-self through analysis of mind- > states into citta and a bunch of cetasikas (each of which is non- > self). > > Does this make sense to you? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 21606 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:41am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalka, Hope you don't mind an opinion from someone unversed in the texts. Maybe you can correct me. I think there are many levels of panna. Two people hearing the texts for the first time, one does not make head or tail out of it, the other is impressed by it. I think it is the accumulated panna which cause the second to see some sense in what has been heard. Then it requires another level (no clear cut distinction) from hearing and being impressed, to seeing enough value to pursue it. Intellectual understanding is a level of panna which is a prerequisite for higher levels to be attained. It is 'panna' as a mental factor which is accumulated and which results in enlightenment, not without accumulated parami though. Concentration conditions the habit of concentration, calm is just calm. In and of itself, these do not lead to panna of the level of vipassana nor do they have anything to do with the development of satipatthana. I do not know about satori only that it is a kind of awakening. I wonder though what those people who have experienced satori, have come to know. In other words what have they been awakened to? Do you have any writing which shows that those who have experienced satori have become enlightened? I feel inclined to conclude at this point, that those who view enlightenment as something coming out of the blue, or on the other hand who believe that it is the result of concentration practice over time, is missing the point that panna through pariyatti and patipatti cannot be ignored. And patipatti here means "satipatthana". Hope I have not been too assertive. ;-) Best wishes, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > Dear Rob, > > Thankyou, for commenting on my post. You say well, what you have to > say, and that is encouraging. > > Yes, about the suddenness of panna. > > It happens not necessarily when you begin to lay down. That I quoted > as an example not to say that it is while laying down you can get > panna ! Wisdom (panna) can arise at any moment. For that the mind 21607 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:55am Subject: Panna Dear everybody, I think the discussion on Panna interests many people on the list. Since I have no access to the books of Abhidhamma, I would like to read what was said about Panna in those books (ie. the original description) Could someone post some extracts? Thank you very much. Metta, KKT 21608 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Sukin, Pardon me for jumping in. Regarding concentration, I would say that although not sufficient, it is a necessary condition for wisdom and liberation. Your feedback is appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Yasalalka, [snip] Concentration conditions the habit of > concentration, calm is just calm. In and of itself, these do not lead to > panna of the level of vipassana nor do they have anything to do with the > development of satipatthana. [snip] > > Best wishes, > Sukin. 21609 From: yasalalaka Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Sukin, I appreciate your point of view, Sukin, you are certainly not assertive,you are welcome to your opinion. Thank you for posting a reply. I do not think there is half way in wisdom(panna). You have it or you haven't got it. There is no,high or medium or subtle panna. This is panna in the Buddhist sense. That is the highest level of understanding and when you have come to it, you see through the anicca, dukkha and anatma, and the mind rises to the level of an Arahat. Intellectual undertanding , is the level of comprehension, intelligence, achieved through accumulated knowledge. These pertain to worldly matters. Panna is paramatta nana, beyond self and the conceptual surroundings. Therefore, it has a spiritual level. It is not even understanding, but an insight, a mental experience. These are ofcourse, as you said conditioned, through accumulations. In Abhidhamma, you read that nothing can be certain. Which Kamma, conditions which, patisandhi-citta, is speculative. At what point of time you will break through into panna is also not certain. You may accumulate knowledge about all the Dhamma ( Venerable Ananda for an example), but some one who dedicates himself to meditation, with a comparatively lesser knowledge of dhamma, may break away from the bonds of samasara, before you do. Our karmic tendencies, play a great part in the directions our lives are taking. It is not every body, who takes a devotional interest in studying Abhidhamma, as some of us do here. Why ? Only explanation may be that we have been doing the same thing in our past lives. It seems, Venerable Sariputta heard the Abhidhamma from the Buddha and taught it to the 500 of his disciples. We may have been perhaps, the followers of these disciples in our distant past..! I am sorry, I did not say that Enlightenment is some thing that comes out of the blues... It takes a long and arduous mental training, perhaps many lives OR who knows in this very life. You know it is very good to learn the Dhamma, and have a sound knowledge of the Buddha's teachings. That will create saddha and there are scriptural evidence, which say that learning the dhamma could even make you a stream entrant. About Zen Buddhism, they also follow the Buddha' teachings, four noble truths, eightfold path, four foundations,etc. and devote more time for meditation, than scriptural study. The following are the two books I have read on Zen Buddhism. Essays in Zen Buddhism by D.T.Zuzuki and Zen Buddhism by D.T.Suzuki. But Meditation should not be neglected, and learning Abhidhamma makes meditation more meaningful. With metta, Yasalalaka 21610 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > > It turned out to be more like a conversation, really. I gave up on my > list pretty early and it just sat there on the table... Sarah again, > reminding me that it wasn't about me... and was surprised that I'd > mentioned as much from it as I had. ..... Glad it went so well. Flexibility helps a lot, I think - in other words, having the program fit into the students and their needs, rather than the other way round;-) The questions below were interesting. What were the answers???? Thanks for sharing your notes - I think it's great that Rob M is working further on them. Hope to hear more, Metta, Sarah ======= Some of the questions: > Can you practice Buddhism and another religion? > Does the goal of this lifetime have to be nirvana? > If you're for non-attachment, do you think it's it wrong for people to > want to get married? > How does chanting relate to meditation? > Is it ok to drink as long as you stay mindful? > Is karma worse for someone who knows better than for someone innocent? > Can you explain the Tibetan Book of the Dead? 21611 From: m. nease Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna Dear Luan, ----- Original Message ----- From: phamdluan2000 To: Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:55 AM Subject: [dsg] Panna > I think the discussion on Panna > interests many people on the list. > > Since I have no access to the books > of Abhidhamma, I would like to read > what was said about Panna in those books > (ie. the original description) > > Could someone post some extracts? Here's one: From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of Abhidhammathasangaha ('CMA'), Compendium of Mental Factor, Guide to Non-Delusion (amoha) (p.90): Pa~n~naa is wisdom, or knowing things as they really are. It is here called a faculty because it exercises predominance in comprehending things as they really are. In Abhidhamma, the three terms--wisdom (pa~n~naa), knowledge (~naa.na) and non-delusion (amoha)--are used synonymously. Wisdom has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yathaasabhaavapa.tivedha). Its function is to illuminate the objective field like a lamp. It is manifested as non-bewilderment. Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikaara). 21612 From: Sarah Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts, compounds, and nonexistence Hi KKT, KKT: Thanks for your answer, Sarah. So the point is: __Abhidhamma is the << theory >> part. __Satipatthana is the << practice >> part. (to realize what is exposed in the Abhidhamma) Is it correct? ..... S: I would not define Abhidhamma as <> anymore than I would Satipatthana. What I read in the suttas is also about abhidhamma and the development of satipatthana. It just depends on conditions whether any understanding develops when reading them. I don’t consider suttas, abhidhamma and satipatthana separately. ..... KKT: I think the practice of Satipatthana for you means << to observe paramattha dhammas arising and falling at the 6 sense-doors >> Is it correct? ..... S: Rather than <>, I would use <> or <>. I don’t believe the arising and falling away of paramattha dhammas can be known in the beginning. The various dhammas (namas and rupas) have to be known and distinguished very clearly, over and over again. ..... KKT: Another very important point I want to ask is Panna (insight, wisdom) Is the following definition of Panna correct? Panna = to see things as they really are ie. making clearly the distinction between concepts and paramattha dhammas. ..... S: Yes, it’s so important to clarify that it is panna that knows, not your or me or this or that person even in the beginning. ‘See things as they really are’ means knowing directly the characteristics of paramattha dhammas when we are referring to panna of satipatthana (as opposed to panna at moments of samatha development).No thought or idea of concepts at moments of panna. ..... KKT: Since everything arises by conditions, so does Panna. ..... S: Yes. ..... KKT: Is the practice of Satipatthana the main condition for Panna to arise? ..... S: Yes - well, moments of sati are the condition for panna to arise together with it and for satipatthana to then develop. In other words, I don’t think we can refer to the initial and occasional moments of sati and panna as the development of satipatthana which is not yet established. ..... KKT: Panna should have the power of liberation ie. making one free from defilements, free from attachments, free from craving, becoming. ..... S: Eventually, but not at the kindergarten stage of development;-) ..... KKT:Therefore Panna should be much more than a merely intellectual understanding. This is what I think about Panna. ..... S: Exactly. But even intellectual considering of these details like now or of the distinction between concepts and realities or the classifications of rupas and so on can help to at least clarify misconceptions. I think James and others have a good point when they point out, however, that mana and all the other kilesa can get in the way and progress or development are by no way assured. Any development or understanding is bound to be very weak for us in the beginning. I like the reminders from the Jatakas that have been quoted recently in the series on the Perfections. They show how even after aeons of wholesome accumulation, the latent kilesa can take us off-track at any time. .... KKT:Can you talk more about Panna according to Abhidhamma? ..... S: Your questions are a real treat! I may add more later (and I think the Robs and others are too - I'm a bit behind on my reading;-)), but as it’s getting late and I have a very long day of teaching tomorrow, making up for lost classes, let me just direct you to the chapter on panna in ‘Cetasikas’ first which includes references from the texts as well: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas36.html I’ll be delighted to hear any further comments or questions. Metta, Sarah ======= 21613 From: Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Hi, Swee Boon, Victor, and Jon - In a message dated 4/25/03 7:15:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@y... writes: > Victor &Jon, > > >I would say that what is assembled is impermanent. > > > >This is how I see it: > >Clinging to concept leads to dukkha. Seeing concept thus: "This is > >impermanent. This is dukkha. This is not mine. This I am not. > >This is not my self." one grows dispassionate toward concept. > > Yes, I agree. > > But some say that concepts cannot be "directly known". If so, how do > we know that concepts are impermanent? > > But it is a fact that I do know that concepts are impermanent. They > are fabricated things. They are born of fabrications. They depend on > fabrications. They have no real essence outside of the ultimate > realities of fabrications. Thus they are impermanent, dukkha, > not-self. > > Swee Boon > =========================== When we think we are looking at a tree, we actually are not. What has happened is that there has been (and continues to unfold) a sequence of visual perceptions which the mind sums up and upon which it superimposes the 'tree' concept, generating a mind-constructed percept we call "the tree". All the images and recognitions actually occurred, the summing up occurred, and the superimposition of the 'tree' concept occurred, but we have, in principle, no basis for presuming the existence of some thing that is "the tree out there". This alleged "tree out there" is not directly apprehended and cannot be assumed to exist, and thus cannot be assumed to arise or cease. However, the internal processes did arise and cease, including the arising and ceasing 'tree' concept, and the constructed 'tree' percept. The 'tree' concepts are generalized mental constructs, built and rebuilt from memories of many perceptions, and which arise from time to time; the 'tree' percepts are more particularized mental constructs that arise from time to time. They are fabricated, built by sankharic functions. It seems to me that you, Jon, and some others here, conflate the internal 'tree' concepts and percepts with the alleged external "trees" which cannot be assumed to exist, and, in fact, are never directly observed. All the actually observed internal phenomena I mentioned do, indeed, arise, and hence also cease. Tree concepts and percepts *do occur*, they are events that arise and cease, and the locus for them is the internal realm, not the presumed and projected external world. This is my take on the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21614 From: Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suddeness, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment to Yasalalaka and Rob M :-) and Sukin In a message dated 4/25/03 1:48:23 AM, rob.moult@j... writes: << Hi Yasalalaka, Well said! I agree with almost everything you have written. Where I have a bit of a problem is your focus on "suddenness". I started by Buddhist practice with Zen and this was the problem that I had at that time as well. I see the journey to "panna" as requiring 10,000 steps. The last step is the most exciting, but it cannot be made before 9,999 steps of groundwork have been done. Ananda achieved enlightenment as he began lay down. Does that mean that beginning to lay down is the technique to achieve enlightenment? No. After spending almost his entire adult life listening to the Buddha and memorizing every word the Buddha said, conditions and Ananda's accumulations were ripe for the event of enlightenment to occur. As it says in the Bhumija sutta, proper practice is a requirement for results. Metta, Rob M :-) >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Well said by both of you fine yogis. I, like Rob M, had some trouble with the Zen concept of sudden enlightenment because, being a Theravadan/vipassana practitioners, I am committed to practice, or what Chan/Zen would call gradualism. It wasn't until I had recently read the Bodhidharma Anthology, trans. Jeffrey L. Broughton; the Platform Sutra, trans. Philip B. Yampolsky, and misc. other Chan/Zen texts, that I realized that Chan/Zen's construct of "enlightenment" is based on the cessation of thought, or what Bodhidharma called 'no-mind' and what Huineng called 'emptiness.' I do agree with Yasalalaka, when he says, <> Where I believe these two concepts merge, is in penetrating what the condition of 'no-thought' is about. And, like Yasalalaka, I can accept that it can occur at anytime, but I also believe 'no-thought' can be gradually cultivate through contemplative practice, as did a number of the Chan/Zen masters, or otherwise they would not have practiced Zazen. Also, just because one has a moment of 'no-thought' or insight, doesn't mean it is permanent. I believe the condition of 'no-thought' which supports insight requires maintenance. And, I believe it is maintained by rigorous practice and cultivation. "Tsung-mi followed Shen hui (two Chan patriarchs) in criticizing the Northern line for its sole emphasis on a graduated meditative regimen to the neglect of sudden enlightenment altogether. Yet, while he maintained Shen-hui's teaching was "sudden," he held that it contained a gradual component as well. In fact, he described Shen-hui's teaching in regard to practice and enlightenment as advocating the necessity of a sudden experience of enlightenment to be followed by a gradual process of cultivation, in which the practitioner's initial insight (vipassana) into his true nature is systematically deepened until it becomes integrated into every aspect of his (or her) life." (Peter N. Gregory, "Sudden Enlightenment followed by Gradual Cultivation UH press 1987). While I would agree with Gregory's central interpretation of Tsung-mi's thesis, and indeed Tsung-mi may have only had this in mind, I think one principle which is glaringly missing, is not just the process of cultivation, but the necessity of maintaining one's enlightenment. I believe there is a common misconception that once one becomes "enlightened," one has no further work to do. But, on the contrary, even the historic Buddha is recorded to have maintained a daily practice of meditation. If a daily practice is no longer needed after enlightenment, then what is the point in engaging in it after enlightenment? I believe the historic Buddha's lifestyle emphasized that enlightenment was not a momentary and final experience, but a process of awakening, as well as a lifestyle which enables the awakening, and then supports the enlightenment after the initial awakening. So, what is this 'no-thought' or 'instant enlightenment?' I believe Yasalalaka's definition is pretty good, which describes for me the condition or state of 'vipassana' (insight), if he only added the key phrase "to see things as they really are." I believe it is well understood in the Theravadan world that the condition or state of 'vipassana' (insight) requires the precondition of samadhi, which is acknowledged as a meditative absorption state which is free from thought. Therefore I hope I haven't leapt too far forward in this argument to say that Bodhidharma's instant enlightenment is vipassana (insight), and that the state or condition of 'no-thought' does not require meditative absorption, but can take place at anytime. Where I believe the Chan/Zen world misses the boat a little is that insight 'no-mind' is not the same thing as nibbana (annihilation of the self). best to all, layman Jeff 21615 From: nidive Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Howard, > It seems to me that you, Jon, and some others here, conflate the > internal 'tree' concepts and percepts with the alleged external > "trees" which cannot be assumed to exist, and, in fact, are never > directly observed. All the actually observed internal phenomena I > mentioned do, indeed, arise, and hence also cease. Tree concepts > and percepts *do occur*, they are events that arise and cease, and > the locus for them is the internal realm, not the presumed and > projected external world. You have made me see that I am talking about the internal realm while Jon and Sarah are talking about the external realm (which doesn't exist). I think focusing on the internal realm is critical. And focusing on the external realm has no real value. In fact, it is not possible to focus on the external realm. I think this clarifies the matter. Thank you. Swee Boon 21616 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:34am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Victor, > Pardon me for jumping in. Regarding concentration, I would say that > although not sufficient, it is a necessary condition for wisdom and > liberation. Yes, that is if we are talking about the path moment. However the reason I mentioned 'in and of itself' with reference to concentration, was not in reference to this. I was talking about deliberate practice, which may be what you are talking about too. If so, then I am not sure how much concentration practice plays a part in deciding the depth of understanding during path moment. I do know from theory however, that at the time of path consciousness there is a degree of high concentration which *is* necessary. But this wouldn't have been the product of previous practice in concentration, but as a result of having Nibanna as object. And as I understand, this is just one citta moment which never arises again ever, since it has done its job in the corresponding level of sainthood. So it seems that concentration practice has no bearing to this. The resultant phala citta may depend on previous practice, I don't know. However, I don't think this resultant citta is that important? > Your feedback is appreciated. Now I wait for your feedback. I just remembered about your comment in a letter before this one to which I wanted to say something. Hope you don't mind me saying it here. You said that the distinction between concept and reality is an unnecessary intellectual overlay. You seemed to imply that the important point was to see all experiences as this is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self. Or that whatever it is, it's 'impermanent'. The distinction between concept and reality on the level of contemplation may be intellectual, but when something is experienced, it can be "recognized" as concept or reality. Of course it would be unrealistic to say that this would be the case for beginners like me, and even if it did, there will surely be papanca following it, wondering "What that was….?" But it seems to me rather, that what you suggest is more like an intellectual overlay. It seems to be like forcing an idea on to an experience? Now you will give me feedback I am sure! ;-) Best wishes, Sukin. 21617 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:35am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, Thanks for your response. I would like to comment on parts of your post. > I do not think there is half way in wisdom(panna). You have it or > you haven't got it. There is no,high or medium or subtle panna. This > is panna in the Buddhist sense. That is the highest level of > understanding and when you have come to it, you see through the > anicca, dukkha and anatma, and the mind rises to the level of an > Arahat. Are you saying then that there is no difference in the panna of a sotapana, sakadagami, anagami and arahata? Do you believe in intellectual right view? Do you think there is no difference between different understading of say kamma/vipaka? One person may believe in this quite blindly, one may not be able to distinquish between the two, one may not know that kamma = cetana and vipaka = seeing, hearing, smelling etc., one may make sense of all this intellectually, another may be able to actually perceive the difference. What decides the difference in understanding of all these cases if not different degree of panna? > Intellectual undertanding , is the level of comprehension, > intelligence, achieved through accumulated knowledge. These pertain > to worldly matters. Does 'knowledge' get passed on from life to life, or is it understanding which does? > Panna is paramatta nana, beyond self and the > conceptual surroundings. Therefore, it has a spiritual level. It is > not even understanding, but an insight, a mental experience. I think you are referring here to the very high level of panna of an enlightened person. > example), but some one who dedicates himself to meditation, with a > comparatively lesser knowledge of dhamma, may break away from the > bonds of samasara, before you do. What is meditation? What is it about this that causes "break away from the bonds of samsara"? ---Hope I am not too direct?! > Our karmic tendencies, play a great part in the directions our lives > are taking. It is not every body, who takes a devotional interest in > studying Abhidhamma, as some of us do here. Why ? Only explanation > may be that we have been doing the same thing in our past lives. It > seems, Venerable Sariputta heard the Abhidhamma from the Buddha and > taught it to the 500 of his disciples. We may have been perhaps, the > followers of these disciples in our distant past..! I find it reasonable to think so too. But surely none of us were Sariputta's disciples, I think…?! > I am sorry, I did not say that Enlightenment is some thing that > comes out of the blues... It takes a long and arduous mental > training, perhaps many lives OR who knows in this very life. I wasn't refering to you, I had in mind what little I know about Zen attitude regarding this. Out of the blue could mean 'one life time' as compared to billions. Some of the people who have his idea about 'in this very life' etc. forget that it took the Buddha and his disciples zillions of years to accumulate enough panna to attain liberation. I find many who believe in the practice with the aim of attaining it in this lifetime, are the same people who are most attached to it, which is actually attachment to self. > About Zen Buddhism, they also follow the Buddha' teachings, four > noble truths, eightfold path, four foundations,etc. and devote more > time for meditation, than scriptural study. The following are the two > books I have read on Zen Buddhism. Essays in Zen Buddhism by > D.T.Zuzuki and Zen Buddhism by D.T.Suzuki. Thanks for this, but I am not much of a reader. I was hoping for some short article or essay. :-) > But Meditation should not be neglected, and learning Abhidhamma makes > meditation more meaningful. Hope Abhidhamma does help you. I feel that it has helped me a great deal. Nice talking to you. Metta, Sukin. 21618 From: yasalalaka Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:46am Subject: Re: Suddeness, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Layman Jeff, I have read some where that, the stream entrants until they become an arahant should continue to meditate as the neglect of regular meditation may diminish the high state of mental power thus far attained. But once the mind has stablished itself in Nibbana, it may not be necessary to continue to meditate, as others would do.However,they may sit to enjoy the bliss of nibbana, which Buddha, himself is said to have done for one week seated under th Bodhi tree immediately after his enlightenment. It was thereafter on the seventh day that he thought out the paticcasuppada. With regard to the point you raised about the necessity for the Buddha to practice meditation after his enlightenment, there is a pertinant question on the Tathagata's Solitary Meditation, raised by King Milinda in the Milindapanha,"...........there was then nothing further he(tathagata) had to do , nothing he had to do to add to what he had already done But then there is also talk of three months solitary meditation.......Solitary meditation is for one who still has something to be done....." and the Venerable Nagasena replied "...All Tathagatas when they have attained omniscience have meditated in solitude. It is while they are recollecting these special qualities of what was well done that they practice solitary meditation.........Tathagatas practice solitary meditation beacause of their realisation of the divers advntages of its special qualities. with metta, Yasalalaka 21619 From: robmoult Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 0:48pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalaka and Sukin, Here is another (perhaps contraversial) perspective on "partial" panna. Within a specific citta, panna is either there or it is not. But a citta only lasts for a moment. The citta process in an Arahant includes the javana stage, but the javana cittas for an arahant are functional (kiriya); they do not generate kamma. From an Abhidhamma perspective, this means that the cetasika cetana plays only a coordinating role, not a driving role. I heard in an Abhidhamma lecture once that, in the citta process of an Arahant, panna replaces cetana as the "driver". I have never researched the special role of panna in the javana cittas of Arahants because I try (with varying success) to focus on Abhidhamma in Daily Life. Perhaps some of the other DSGrs may know of relevant texts that support or refute this idea. Here is an analogy; a spark creates light for a moment. A flame creates continuous light. It is true that at any moment there is a presence or an absence of light, but I certainly wouldn't be able to read a book if my only source of light was a spark. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > > > > Sukin, > > I appreciate your point of view, Sukin, you are certainly not > assertive,you are welcome to your opinion. Thank you for posting a > reply. > > I do not think there is half way in wisdom(panna). You have it or > you haven't got it. There is no,high or medium or subtle panna. This > is panna in the Buddhist sense. That is the highest level of > understanding and when you have come to it, you see through the > anicca, dukkha and anatma, and the mind rises to the level of an > Arahat. > 21620 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 2:38pm Subject: Re: Panna --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Dear everybody, > > > I think the discussion on Panna > interests many people on the list. > > ___________ Dear KKT, In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedalla Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Until fairly recently I put emphasis on listening and studying as I believed that anyone who did enough of this would gradually learn what insight is. But through meeting someone(not on this list) who had studied much and who had developed obvious conceit rather than insight I would now stress wise attention and what that really means. Robertk 21621 From: Michael Newton Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya > > > > Dear James; Actually,James,it's not my interpretation.I'm just saying what I actually am directly reading in this sutta.I'm unclear, where The Buddha actually commands Vassakara to-wage war with the Vajjis as I am going over the text which I have a hard copy of. Seems nowhere to be found.Maybe in your next response. You can give me a direct quotation from this sutta where Lord Buddha makes this command-if I've overlooked something let me know.As for your comment,"wake up and smell the coffee"I'm not sure what you mean there.I am sure there are deeper meanings,as you say,but guess I'm not sure what that is,but I'm learing-hopefully-maybe you can clear up a few more things here. Yours in the Dhamma with Metta, > > > Michael > > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > Your interpretation of the Buddha's words is really > far out, I must > say. Why would the Buddha, as you paraphrase, "then > tells him, to > depart as it seems fit to him"? Was he suggesting > that maybe > Vassakara could leave him hopping upside down on one > hand? Or maybe > both hands? Or maybe he could have moonwalked out of > the Blessed > One's presence? ;-). Please understand, no one would > say that kind of > thing to someone unless it had a deeper meaning. I > really don't want > to seem sarcastic to you, because you are a really > sweet person, but > I don't know any other way to put it! Wake up and > smell the coffee! > The Lord Buddha told Vassakara to go ahead and > conspire against the > Vajjis in order to wage war against them... > ultimately he knew that > Vassakara and his King wouldn't be successful > anyway. But why didn't > he just state that outright? Because he wasn't > anti-war like you > suggest; he didn't get out his peace beads, put on > his tie-dye shirt, > and make a stance for no more war anywhere! If you > know what I mean… > but maybe you won't. > > Honestly, I have had this type of discussion many > times with those > Buddhists who are 'VEGETARIANS', and believe > everyone else should be > also, but get upset when I tell them that the Lord > Buddha wasn't > vegetarian nor did he believe in that! Well! Throw > the baby out > with the bathwater!! ;-)) Believe it or not, any > kind of peace > reguires more toughness and suffering than war does! > > > Metta, James 21622 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:41pm Subject: Re: Panna Dear RobertK and Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > I think the discussion on Panna > interests many people on the list. > > ___________ Dear KKT, In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedalla Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing right understanding into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Until fairly recently I put emphasis on listening and studying as I believed that anyone who did enough of this would gradually learn what insight is. But through meeting someone(not on this list) who had studied much and who had developed obvious conceit rather than insight I would now stress wise attention and what that really means. Robertk KKT: Thank you two for your quotes. It's very interesting. Here Panna is translated by Intuitive Wisdom. Abhinna = super-knowledge, direct knowledge. Parinna = full understanding, here is translated by apprehending. Is there some quote talking about the causes for Panna to arise? Metta, KKT 21623 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya There are Suttas where this formulation of a statement of leaving is obviously not meant as support for whatever action has been talked about. There are some Suttas where the Buddha will exhort a monk to do some action one, two then three times and the monk resists and then the Buddha uses this line...Go and do as you see fit. Probably the most famous example is in the Maha-parinibbana Sutta C:\Access to Insight (new)\html\canon\digha\dn16.html "3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it." 4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!" 5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent. 6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you." "Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away. " ----- Original Message ----- From: "buddhatrue" To: Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 6:49 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Michael Newton wrote: > > Hi James, > > Thank you for your clarification,I have looked at the > Mahaparinibbana Sutta,and I would refer you to line > 5,just before line 6.The Buddha,simply responds to > brahmin Vassakara,who asked,permission to depart,then > tells him,to depart as it seems fit to him.This is > simply a goodbye,and doesn't appear to be a permission > for war.Maybe I stand to be corrected.Check that last > section out.Thank you,for your communication. > May all beings be Happy,Michael Hi Michael, Your interpretation of the Buddha's words is really far out, I must say. Why would the Buddha, as you paraphrase, "then tells him, to depart as it seems fit to him"? Was he suggesting that maybe Vassakara could leave him hopping upside down on one hand? Or maybe both hands? Or maybe he could have moonwalked out of the Blessed One's presence? ;-). Please understand, no one would say that kind of thing to someone unless it had a deeper meaning. I really don't want to seem sarcastic to you, because you are a really sweet person, but I don't know any other way to put it! Wake up and smell the coffee! The Lord Buddha told Vassakara to go ahead and conspire against the Vajjis in order to wage war against them... ultimately he knew that Vassakara and his King wouldn't be successful anyway. But why didn't he just state that outright? Because he wasn't anti-war like you suggest; he didn't get out his peace beads, put on his tie-dye shirt, and make a stance for no more war anywhere! If you know what I mean. but maybe you won't. Honestly, I have had this type of discussion many times with those Buddhists who are 'VEGETARIANS', and believe everyone else should be also, but get upset when I tell them that the Lord Buddha wasn't vegetarian nor did he believe in that! Well! Throw the baby out with the bathwater!! ;-)) Believe it or not, any kind of peace reguires more toughness and suffering than war does! Metta, James 21624 From: yasalalaka Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Sukin, It is indeed good to be able to exchange these views, with you. I hope this exchange will provide you useful material to chew on. It does help me to understand different ideas, and certain experiences I have by discussing these issues. In my mind there is a difference in wisdom as far as its development is concerned. The wisdom (panna) ,begins with samadhi, concentration, jhana, insight, stream entry and matures to break through to the state of Arahat. We may call the intellectual understanding of right view, difference between Kamma/vipaka etc. worldly wisdom, they are merely knowing the each stage of the path as we traverse it to-wards Nibbana. Like the citta that conditions the cuti-citta, panna conditions the break away from Samsara to reach Nibbana. I really don't know whether it is the knowlege or the understanding that passes from one life to the other, but I take it to be the accumulated knowledge of the past life that make us understand , related matters, in this life. You say" I think you are referring to the very high level of panna of an enlightened one." Here we go to an unknown area. Panna is that which takes our mind to the state of Nibbana. An enlightened one has entered Nibbana, his panna is certainly of a higher quality. We speak of a Tathagata nana, in reference to the Buddha. "What is meditation ? What is it about this that causes the break away from the bonds of samasara ?" Meditation or bhavana is called the cultivation of the mind. Whole of Buddha's teaching is to lead us to develop the mind (nama). It is the diligent meditation that will make us experience paramatta dhamma, and understand that all conceptual things are subject to change and perish, and they are unsatisfactory, and 'self' is a delusion. We will understand that it is attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and delusion(moha) that keep us bound to the samasara,and that knowledge (panna), will cause the break away from samasara. Abhidhamma is Buddha's teachings in ultimate terms, opposed to convential terminology he used in Sutta Pitaka. It is a difficult Dhamma to undertand, but which becomes evident in Insight Meditation through experiencing the arising and falling away of nama-rupa and so on. Lord Buddha in the conclusion of his discourse on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness-Mahasatipatthgana Sutta says: "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." You can become an Arahat in this very life,if you follow the instructions for meditation given in this Sutta. Learning Abhidhamm, will be a great advantage in making a success of vipassana meditation. with metta, Yasalalaka 21625 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: Suddeness, Introduction to yasalala KKT --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > > > I have read some where that, the stream entrants until they become an > arahant should continue to meditate as the neglect of regular > meditation may diminish the high state of mental power thus far > attained. But once the mind has stablished itself in Nibbana, it may > not be necessary to continue to meditate, as others would > do.However,they may sit to enjoy the bliss of nibbana, +++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Yasalalaka (and also KKT might be interested, I think you are you referring to the Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha- vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant. Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e paramattha dhammas) 'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk, as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self... Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of stream-winning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?' 'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ... by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of once-returning.' 'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by one who is an anagami (non-returner)?' 'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'. 'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be pondered with method by one who is an arahat?' 'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not self. For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self- possession even in this present life.'End sutta _________ It is not a matter of whether one is sitting or lying or walking or standing as to whther these khandas(paramattha dhammas) can be insighted. It depends on understanding. Without understanding what is paramattha and what is concept I think very difficult to have wise attention , to understand what meditation means in the Buddhist sense. The Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield p.878)Blind from birth chapter:"since they do not know Dhamma, they do not know that which is not Dhamma either. ....... they neither know dhamma to be a thing having an owm nature (sabhava), nor do they know that which is not dhamma to be a thing lacking an own nature.(Dhammam sabhavadhammam..adhammam asabhavadhammam) And as such they declare a thing having an own nature as though it were a thing lacking an own nature....""endquote And (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]." If satipattha is correctly developed in the way explained by Sariputta in the sutta above then: "perception of not-self becomes anchored (anattasanna santhathi): ..reckoned as the perception of not-self as follows, viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of their being void and empty, becomes anchored in the heart, becomes established extremely firmly"endquote from The Udanatthakatha (translation masefield p595) And "when the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements (dhatus ie. paramattha dhammas), the characteristic of not-self become apparent in its true nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 This resolution into elements can only be developed by insight into the present moment: Bhaddekaratta sutta: Paccuppanna~n ca yo dhamma.m tattha tattha vipassati."These dhammas [khandas, paramattha dhammas, robk] of the present, see them with insight as they arise" ______________________________ YAsalala: which Buddha, > himself is said to have done for one week seated under th Bodhi tree > immediately after his enlightenment. It was thereafter on the seventh > day that he thought out the paticcasuppada."" ________ Just a small correction. The Buddha understood Paticcasamuppada in the third watch of the night he attained enlightenment. It was at that very time that he attained. Later he contemplated the extremely deep 24 conditions of the Patthana. In the Atthasaliní it says "during the fourth week after his enlightenment, he sat in the "Jewel House", in the north west direction, and contemplated the Abhidhamma. But when, coming to the Patthana, he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal causal relations of condition, of presentation, and so on, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein."" RobertK 21626 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: When we think we are looking at a tree, we actually are not. What has happened is that there has been (and continues to unfold) a sequence of visual perceptions which the mind sums up and upon which it superimposes the 'tree' concept, generating a mind- constructed percept we call "the tree". All the images and recognitions actually occurred, the summing up occurred, and the superimposition of the 'tree' concept occurred, but we have, in principle, no basis for presuming the existence of some thing that is "the tree out there". This alleged "tree out there" is not directly apprehended and cannot be assumed to exist, and thus cannot be assumed to arise or cease. KKT: You are a Yogacarin, Howard :-)) What you describe here is exactly the theories of the Yogacara. Since all we know about the 'tree' are only perceptions received at the 6 sense-doors, the Yogacarins say that the tree does not exist << out there >> :-)) ie. they deny the existence of the external world. But they go farther than the Theravadins by saying that since the paramattha dhammas as 'tree' are perceived at the 6 sense-doors by << CITTA >> therefore they include those paramattha dhammas in Citta and postulate that << Only Citta (Consciousness) Exists >> Thus the name of their school << Mind-Only oy Mere-Consciousness school >> They define a new concept, Alaya-Vijnana (Storehouse-consciousness) which is << a continuous FLOW of Citta >> (this notion is very near to the Bhavanga of Theravada) Alaya is a << stream of consciousness >> in constant (and violent) movement. Only Alaya exists! The external world doesn't exist! :-)) Everything else (rupa, cetasika) are << IN (or contained in) >> Alaya-vijnana (ie. Citta/Consciousness) Metta, KKT 21627 From: Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts, compounds, and nonexistence Hi Sarah, Consider this: perception of a being is not a concept. It is a view (sakkaya ditthi). Perhaps all apparent wholes could be similarly classified. I have no idea how to classify mental images, but then memory isn't classified either. If you want to think of anatta as "no concept" that is okay with me. I'm sure you will achieve some success on the path with that idea. Larry 21628 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > . Probably the most famous example is in the > Maha-parinibbana Sutta C:\Access to Insight > (new)\html\canon\digha\dn16.html > > "3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, > employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection > the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain > throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, > Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain > throughout a world-period or until the end of it." > > 4.___ Dear Ray, Completly off the topic. I just noticed the translation of kappa above; "if he so desired, remain > throughout a world-period or until the end of it." Kappa- translated as 'world-period'- here has several meanings. the Theravada tradition noted that some misunderstood this to mean an aeon in this sutta. But kappa also means lifespan and in this case it meant that the Buddha could have lived out a full lifespan as a human of that time (perhaps 160 years or so I guess). Robertk 21629 From: Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts, compounds, and nonexistence Hi again Sarah, Thanks for the remarks on your own practice. Well said. I really feel sorry for the woman whose child is being excluded. Are all the children of parents who work at hospitals in the same boat? Larry 21630 From: Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Hi, KKT - In a message dated 4/25/03 7:32:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phamdluan@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > > > When we think we are looking at a tree, we actually are not. > What has happened is that there has been (and continues to unfold) > a sequence of visual perceptions which the mind sums up and upon > which it superimposes the 'tree' concept, generating a mind- > constructed percept we call "the tree". All the images and > recognitions actually occurred, the summing up occurred, and > the superimposition of the 'tree' concept occurred, but we have, > in principle, no basis for presuming the existence of some thing > that is "the tree out there". This alleged "tree out there" is not > directly apprehended and cannot be assumed to exist, and thus cannot > be assumed to arise or cease. > > > > > KKT: You are a Yogacarin, Howard :-)) > > What you describe here is exactly > the theories of the Yogacara. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Guilty as charged! (Sort of.) I'm a Yogacarin as Vasubandhu was (but not in the substantialist sense of the Lankavatara Sutra), and I'm a Madhyamikan as Nagarjuna was, and I'm a Theravadin who sees a phenomenalist perspective there, especially in Abhidhamma. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Since all we know about the 'tree' > are only perceptions received at the 6 sense-doors, > the Yogacarins say that the tree > does not exist <>:-)) > ie. they deny the existence of the external world. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't exactly deny the so-called external world. It is simply unknowable in principle, and, thus, a pragmatic, Occam's-razor attitude leads one to dismiss it. ------------------------------------------------------- > > But they go farther than the Theravadins > by saying that since the paramattha dhammas > as 'tree' are perceived at the 6 sense-doors > by <>therefore they include those > paramattha dhammas in Citta and postulate > that <> > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I consider that perspective somewhat dangerous. It can be wrongly grasped, turning citta into a kind of self. Certain forms of cittamatra philosophy tend to take the subjective pole of contact as a kind of self. This sort of philosophy takes MIND or CONSCIOUSNESS (usually all in caps! ;-)) as a kind of substantialist reality. But discernment of an object (or contact) is just a function/operation, with subjective pole and objective pole co-occurring and interdependent. The subjective pole is no more real than the objective pole - they are mutually dependent and both empty. There is a difference between phenomenalism and idealism, and the idealist perspective leads one towards substantialism, I believe. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Thus the name of their school > <> > > They define a new concept, Alaya-Vijnana > (Storehouse-consciousness) which is > <> > (this notion is very near to the Bhavanga of Theravada) > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that as Vasubandhu defined it, it is just the ordinary flow of experience, the ordinary flow of citta, aramanna, and cetasika. Recall that Vasubandhu was an Abhidhammika before being a Yogacarin. --------------------------------------------------- > > Alaya is a <> > in constant (and violent) movement. > > Only Alaya exists! > The external world doesn't exist! :-)) > Everything else (rupa, cetasika) > are <> > Alaya-vijnana (ie. Citta/Consciousness) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: One could say pretty much the same about the Theravadin Abhidhammika perspective, so long as one stays away from making vi~n~nana some sort of fundamental, substantial "principle" instead of the mere operation that it is. --------------------------------------------------- > > > Metta, > > > KKT > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21631 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 8:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya Hello Michael, James, Ray, RobK and All, When reading the suttas, I'm sure we have all noticed the description of little ritualistic behaviours as people come to the Buddha and do respectful things and seat themselves at an appropriate distance, circling around and keeping their right side to him etc. There were specific formulas when engaging in discussion and debate as well - I remember Andrew sending me an extremely informative post (off-list) on this when we were in the depths of the thread about the Buddha saying some unflattering things about women. One has to understand the rules of courtesy and social discourse of the time, or one can misunderstand the suttas. I was reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of 'The Worship of Householders (or Sakka's Worship) Sutta, S.11.18(8) Samyutta Nikaya and came across this note to an expression at he end ot the sutta. Note 650: the expressioon 'yassa dani kalam mannasi' occurs frequently in the suttas - it is a "Departure Formula". In the Samyutta Nikaya it occurs in S. 11.18; S.35:88 (IV, 62.31); 35:243 (IV, 183.15 + 30); 44:1 (IV 379, 29); 54:9 (V 321, 16-17) and 55:6 (V 348.27), - and I have no doubt, in many places in the other Nikayas. metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Hendrickson" 21632 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Panna Dear KKT and Mike, op 25-04-2003 15:56 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Wisdom has the > characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature > (yathaasabhaavapa.tivedha). Its function is to illuminate the objective > field like a lamp. It is manifested as non-bewilderment. Its proximate > cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikaara). I add something now from the Second Book of the Abhidhamma, the Book of Analysis, Vibhanga, §525, where wisdom is translated as awareness, but it is sampaja~n~na, another word for panna: N: I like especially: subtlety. It has to make fine discriminations, the Dhamma is so subtle and deep. And this impresses me: light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour of wisdom, jewel of wisdom. It was so dark before we heard the Dhamma, we did not know anything. I did not know that absentmindedness and ignorance were akusala, I did not know what conceit was. I did not know that one can develop metta, patience, and understanding of the dhammas within me and around me. And even though wisdom is very weak, not much developed, we can still appreciate that it is like a lamp, illuminating darkness. Gradually we gain more confidence in the Dhamma the Buddha taught and we can see wisdom as a jewel, we regard it as supreme, do not want to exchange it for anything else. Nina. Nina. 21633 From: robmoult Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi Sarah and Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Thanks for sharing your notes - I think it's great that Rob M is working > further on them. There is a good glossy magazine called "Eastern Horizon", which is a publication of the Young Buddhists Association of Malaysia (YBAM). They just published my article "Introduction to Abhidhamma" and have asked me to contribute another article. I gave them a list of possible topics including "Buddhism by the Numbers" but they haven't gotten back to me with which topic they are interested in. I will update you as I get more news. Metta, Rob M :-) 21634 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Howard Thanks for this post, which I have added to my (rather lengthy) queue of posts to be replied to. On a quick reading, however, I wasn’t able to grasp the meaning of your remarks about conflating the mental constructs that are 'tree' concepts and 'tree' percepts with what you call the 'alleged external "trees"'. Could you expand on this a little, please? Thanks. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > The 'tree' concepts are generalized mental constructs, built > and > rebuilt from memories of many perceptions, and which arise from > time to time; > the 'tree' percepts are more particularized mental constructs that > arise from > time to time. They are fabricated, built by sankharic functions. It > seems to > me that you, Jon, and some others here, conflate the internal > 'tree' concepts > and percepts with the alleged external "trees" which cannot be > assumed to > exist, and, in fact, are never directly observed. All the actually > observed > internal phenomena I mentioned do, indeed, arise, and hence also > cease. Tree > concepts and percepts *do occur*, they are events that arise and > cease, and > the locus for them is the internal realm, not the presumed and > projected > external world. This is my take on the matter. > > With metta, > Howard 21635 From: smallchap Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) Dear Sukin, Thank you foryour well thought out reply. --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Hi Smallchap, > I am trying to figure out what is it that you want me to see. > Are you > trying to show me that I should not hold such views or at > least making > them into one? S: I was merely pointing you to the sutta in which the Buddha stated clearly his position on such view. If so then let me explain my real position with > regard to > this matter. > I wasn't saying that there is permanency anywhere. With regard > to > conventional objects, I think they do not exist as objects of > experience > except as mental constructions and reconstructions. The > distinctive > realities responsible for this are I believe, sanna, vittaka > and vichara. S: Thank you very much for your explanation. Certainly I have learnt something from you. > Normally I wouldn't bother to ponder over what exists and what > does > not, my understanding is dictated by my knowledge of > satipatthana and > what objects can be the objects of sati of this level. S: :-) > For me words and > 'things' are in > their very nature, permanent, they refer to something that is > "there", > even if only for a moment. S: I have much difficulties trying to understand this statement. Could you elaborate further? You mean everything(concept) that is there is permanent? There are arising, presence and disolution in a "moment". The same must apply to concept. Even the word and description > of "impermanence" is not the actual fact of impermanence. So > when > one uses impermanence to refer to 'things', then it has a > different > meaning to me. In order to drop the idea of permanence with > reference > to objects, I now use the idea of impermanence; this > understanding can > lead to a dead-end. S: There is such thing as right view about phenomena as oppose to wrong view. I will cite a few examples of how the idea of impermanece of things(concepts) that did not lead to dead end. 1. Prince Siddattha after seeing the four signs, decided to make the Great Renunciation. 2. Khema, Queen of King Bimbisara, after seeing the beautiful woman created by the Buddha turned into bones, came to understand that there was no beauty in form, and subsequently became as arahat. 3. Ven Cula Panthaka, saw the clean cloth created by the Buddha turned soiled in his hands after rubbig it, reflected on impermanence and attained arahatship. There are many more examples like this in the Dhamapada stories. You can find them in "Buddhist Legends" by Eugene Watson Burlingame. > Please note that I am not saying that it is wrong to use the > word > impermanence with reference to conventional objects, just that > it > wouldn't have the same meaning as when made in reference to > paramattha dhammas. S: But you said it can lead to dead end?!?! > > Hope I have not confused further, since I feel I am a bit off > track > because I had something else in mind when earlier I read your > response > and now have ended up writing something different. S: I am confused. smallchap 21636 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, smallchap wrote: > >Sukin: If so then let me explain my real position with > > regard to > > this matter. > > I wasn't saying that there is permanency anywhere. With regard > > to > > conventional objects, I think they do not exist as objects of > > experience > > except as mental constructions and reconstructions. The > > distinctive > > realities responsible for this are I believe, sanna, vittaka > > and vichara. > > SMal: Thank you very much for your explanation. Certainly I have > learnt something from you. > > > Sukin:Normally I wouldn't bother to ponder over what exists and what > > does > > not, my understanding is dictated by my knowledge of > > satipatthana and > > what objects can be the objects of sati of this level. > > > Sm: I have much difficulties trying to understand this statement. > Could you elaborate further? > You mean everything(concept) that is there is permanent? There > are arising, presence and disolution in a "moment". The same > must apply to concept. ________________ Dear Smallchap, This is a post I sent last year which might help. Concepts (pannati) cannot arise or pass away, they are simply non-existent. Also see my post about suddeness ealier today. The Dhamma Theory Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 Karunadasa: """because pannattis are without corresponding objective reality, the commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a real nature -- to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since sabhava, the intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the point of view of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an abhava, a non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this fact that the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- origination (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are not applied to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated only of those things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical reality. Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought about by conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are also defined as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive production (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have their own individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an own- nature, with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is positively produced. Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter are delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the pannattis can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva sambhonti); and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." Pannattis have no own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, presence, and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these three phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and future do not apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time (kalavimutta). For this self-same reason, they have no place in the traditional analysis of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is included in the khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality and be subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of underscoring their unreality."">> robertK 21637 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Apr 25, 2003 11:14pm Subject: Three Cheers!!! Hello Jon, Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday dear Jon ... Happy Birthday to you! And SarahF is 22 today! How could she get to be older than her mother? :-) Many happy returns Jon - and may they be in happier years than this one. much metta, Chris 21638 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 0:21am Subject: Re: Suddeness, Introduction to yasalala KKT RobertK, Thank you for posting the Sutta. That was the one I had in mind. with metta, Yasalalaka 21639 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 0:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Cheers!!! Chris You're not supposed to know these things, but thanks anyway! Wishing SarahF all the best, too. (And I'm sure she appreciates how fortunate she is to have such a lovely, charming Mum.) Now, back to the list ... ;-)) Jon --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Jon, > > Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday dear > Jon ... Happy Birthday to you! > > And SarahF is 22 today! How could she get to be older than her > mother? :-) > > Many happy returns Jon - and may they be in happier years than this > one. > > much metta, > Chris 21640 From: nidive Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) RobertK, > Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot > be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned > (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to > be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and > the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of > pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of > underscoring their unreality. But do pannattis (concepts) condition conditioned dhammas? I know this is a stupid question; something which does not exist cannot condition something which does exist. But I cannot reconcile this with what the Blessed One said: "'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to what was it said? ... ... Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html If pannattis do not exist, then consciousness at the intellect cannot arise. (You may interpret "ideas" in the above quoted sutta as excluding pannattis. In that case, please ignore me.) Furthermore, I have sutta evidence that suggests that pannattis do "arise" and "fall away". "If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of ideas are discerned. And when their arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self.' Thus the intellect is not-self and ideas are not-self. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html [text in ellipsis expanded by me] (Again, you may interpret "ideas" in the above quoted sutta as excluding pannattis. In that case, please ignore me.) Swee Boon Illusions do exist. But what is alluded to by that illusion does not exist. And without the object of illusion, how can there be the illusion in the first place? 21641 From: robmoult Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:19am Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 17-21 for comment Do People Really Exist? Slide Contents ============== M: By what name shall I know you, Sir? N: My companions call me Nâgasena. But the name and the person to whom the name refers do not really exist. M: If Nâgasena and the person do not exist, to whom do people offer alms and who receives these offerings? Since you receive them, you really exist. N: Your Majesty, did you come to this monastery on foot or by chariot? M: I came by chariot. N: Well then, what is a chariot? Is the horse the chariot? Is the wheel the chariot? Is the axle the chariot? Is the carriage the chariot? M: I must answer "No" to all of your questions. N: Is there a thing called chariot beside the horse, the wheel, the axle, the carriage, etc.? M: There is no chariot beside the horse, the wheels, the axle and the carriage. Just a combination of these things has been named a chariot. N: Very well, your Majesty, you should understand Nâgasena as you understood the chariot. Speaker Notes ============= "The Questions of King Milinda" was written in the first century BC. The book takes the form of questions from a philosopher king, King Milinda, to a Buddhist monk, Nâgasena. King Milinda was based on King Menander, a famous historical figure. King Menander was a Greek who ruled Bactria (present day Afghanistan) between 150 - 110 BC, about 200 years after Alexander the Great conquered the area. The Bactrians later became Buddhist. In fact, it is in Bactaria that the first statues of the Buddha (obviously with a Greek influence) were created in the first century AD. Prior to this, the Buddha was represented by footprints, an empty throne or a stupa. The dialogue above takes place when they first meet and illustrates the idea that concepts do not ultimately exist and apparent realities can be broken into ultimate realities. According to the Visuddhi Magga (Path of Purification), "… So in many hundred Suttas there is only mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being, not a person. Therefore, just as when the component parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles… are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate sense, when each part is examined, there is no chariot… so too, when there are the five khandhas of clinging there comes to be the mere conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision." 21642 From: smallchap Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) Dear Robert K, Your speed of reply is amazing. --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, smallchap > Dear Smallchap, > This is a post I sent last year which might help. Concepts > (pannati) > cannot arise or pass away, they are simply non-existent. Also > see my > post about suddeness ealier today. > > The Dhamma Theory > Philosophical Cornerstone of the ABHIDHAMMA > Y. Karunadasa The Wheel Publication No. 412/413 > Karunadasa: > """because pannattis are without corresponding objective > reality, the > commentaries call them asabhava-dhammas -- things without a > real > nature -- > to distinguish them from the real elements of existence.Since > sabhava, the > intrinsic nature of a dhamma, is itself the dhamma, from the > point > of view > of this definition what is qualified as asabhava amounts to an > > abhava, a > non-existent in the final sense. It is in recognition of this > fact > that > the three salient characteristics of empirical reality -- > origination > (uppada), subsistence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga) -- are > not > applied > to them. For these three characteristics can be predicated > only of > those > things which answer to the Abhidhammic definition of empirical > > reality. > Again, unlike the real existents, pannattis are not brought > about by > conditions (paccayatthitika). For this same reason, they are > also > defined > as "not positively produced" (aparinipphanna). Positive > production > (parinipphannata) is true only of those things which have > their own > individual nature (avenika-sabhava). Only a dhamma that has an > own- > nature, > with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, > and > marked by > the three salient characteristics of conditioned existence, is > > positively > produced. > > Further, pannattis differ from dhammas in that only the latter > are > delimited by rise and fall; only of the dhammas and not of the > > pannattis > can it be said, "They come into being having not been (ahutva > sambhonti); > and, after having been, they cease (hutva pativenti)." > Pannattis > have no > own-nature to be manifested in the three instants of arising, > presence, > and dissolution. Since they have no existence marked by these > three > phases, such temporal distinctions as past, present, and > future do > not > apply to them. Consequently they have no reference to time > (kalavimutta). > For this self-same reason, they have no place in the > traditional > analysis > of empirical existence into the five khandhas, for what is > included > in the > khandhas should have the characteristics of empirical reality > and be > subject to temporal divisions.121 Another noteworthy > characteristic > of > pannattis is that they cannot be described either as > conditioned > (sankhata) or as unconditioned (asankhata), for they do not > possess > their > own-nature (sabhava) to be so described. Since the two > categories of > the > conditioned and the unconditioned comprise all realities, the > description > of pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another > way of > underscoring their unreality."">> > > robertK S: I do undestand now. This explanation is most helpful. Thank you very much. smallchap p.s. Professor Y. Karunadasa teaches Dhamma courses in Singapore at the Buddhist Library. If I find the opportunity I will sit a course of Abhidhamma under his tutorship. 21643 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) ---""But do pannattis (concepts) condition conditioned dhammas?""" Dear Swee boon, On the contrary , an excellent question. The puzzling answer is yes. Concepts do condition conditioned dhammas. I think this is hard to put into words and yet it can be known directly. The teaching of the Buddha is conceptual and it can condition wisdom leading to nibbana. Concepts are the object of citta but not in quite the same way as paramattha dhammas. I should point out that "ideas" in the sutta you quote is a rather poor choice. The Pali is 'dhamma' as far as I can see. What the translator calls "intellect" is mano. My pali is word by word so it would take me a long time to properly translate it and I don't have Bodhi's translation to check against. But anyway from my brief glance at the pali it is clear that what is being referred to are ayatana - i.e. paramattha dhammas. It is not concepts or pannati at all. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > RobertK, > > > Another noteworthy characteristic of pannattis is that they cannot > > be described either as conditioned (sankhata) or as unconditioned > > (asankhata), for they do not possess their own-nature (sabhava) to > > be so described. Since the two categories of the conditioned and > > the unconditioned comprise all realities, the description of > > pannattis as exempt from these two categories is another way of > > underscoring their unreality. > ___________________________________________ > But do pannattis (concepts) condition conditioned dhammas? > > I know this is a stupid question; something which does not exist > cannot condition something which does exist. > > But I cannot reconcile this with what the Blessed One said: > > "'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus it was said. > In reference to what was it said? ... ... Dependent on the intellect & > ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of > consciousness should be known.' Thus it was said. And in reference to > this was it said. This is the third sextet. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html > > If pannattis do not exist, then consciousness at the intellect cannot > arise. (You may interpret "ideas" in the above quoted sutta as > excluding pannattis. In that case, please ignore me.) > > Furthermore, I have sutta evidence that suggests that pannattis do > "arise" and "fall away". > > "If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that wouldn't be > tenable. The arising & falling away of ideas are discerned. And when > their arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My > self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone > were to say, 'Ideas are the self.' Thus the intellect is not-self and > ideas are not-self. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html > [text in ellipsis expanded by me] > > (Again, you may interpret "ideas" in the above quoted sutta as > excluding pannattis. In that case, please ignore me.) > > Swee Boon > > Illusions do exist. But what is alluded to by that illusion does not > exist. And without the object of illusion, how can there be the > illusion in the first place? 21644 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, smallchap wrote: > > p.s. Professor Y. Karunadasa teaches Dhamma courses in Singapore > at the Buddhist Library. If I find the opportunity I will sit a > course of Abhidhamma under his tutorship. > _____________ Please pay my deep respects. His scholarship is extraordinary, his book on Rupa a treasured possesion. RobertK 21645 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi RobK and Swee Boon, Bodhi's translation is: "'The six classes of consciousness should be understood.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises. So it was with reference to this that it was said: 'The six classes of consciousness should be understood.' metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---""But do pannattis (concepts) condition conditioned dhammas?""" > Dear Swee boon, > > On the contrary , an excellent question. > The puzzling answer is yes. Concepts do condition conditioned > dhammas. I think this is hard to put into words and yet it can be > known directly. The teaching of the Buddha is conceptual and it can > condition wisdom leading to nibbana. > Concepts are the object of citta but not in quite the same way as > paramattha dhammas. > I should point out that "ideas" in the sutta you quote is a rather > poor choice. The Pali is 'dhamma' as far as I can see. What the > translator calls "intellect" is mano. My pali is word by word so it > would take me a long time to properly translate it and I don't have > Bodhi's translation to check against. But anyway from my brief > glance at the pali it is clear that what is being referred to are > ayatana - i.e. paramattha dhammas. It is not concepts or pannati at > all. > RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: 21646 From: nidive Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) RobertK, > On the contrary , an excellent question. > The puzzling answer is yes. Concepts do condition conditioned > dhammas. I think this is hard to put into words and yet it can be > known directly. The teaching of the Buddha is conceptual and it can > condition wisdom leading to nibbana. Well, I take it that concepts are not that "innocent" after all. > The Pali is 'dhamma' as far as I can see. What the translator > calls "intellect" is mano. > But anyway from my brief glance at the pali it is clear that what > is being referred to are ayatana - i.e. paramattha dhammas. It is > not concepts or pannati at all. I do not take this position. The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid16.html Swee Boon 21647 From: nidive Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:08am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Christine, > Bodhi's translation is: "'The six classes of consciousness should be > understood.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this > said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; > dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; dependent > on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; dependent on the > tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; dependent on the > body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; dependent on the mind > and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises. So it was with > reference to this that it was said: 'The six classes of > consciousness should be understood.' Thank you for posting. That was the third sextet. The second sextet is: "'The six external media should be known.' Thus it was said. In reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the idea-medium (or mind-objects medium). 'The six external media should be known.' Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the second sextet. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. As regards dhammarammana, the sixth class of arammana, this can again be subdivided into six classes. They are : 1. The five sense-organs (pasada-rupas) 2. The sixteen subtle rupas (sukhuma-rupas) 3. Citta 4. Cetasika 5. Nibbana 6. Conventional terms or concepts (pannatti) http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid16.html I think that my interpretation of "ideas" or "mind-objects" ties in with what Nina had given in ADL. Swee Boon 21648 From: Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/26/03 12:56:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > Thanks for this post, which I have added to my (rather lengthy) queue > of posts to be replied to. On a quick reading, however, I wasn’t > able to grasp the meaning of your remarks about conflating the mental > constructs that are 'tree' concepts and 'tree' percepts with what you > call the 'alleged external "trees"'. Could you expand on this a > little, please? Thanks. > > ============================ Yes. I could of course be consistently misunderstanding you in this. Let me try to explain. By "concepts" I mean general ideas or thoughts which intend to denote categories of alleged entities. These are ideas, some more specific, some less, of trees, cars, numbers, saints, sinners, battleships, and bugs, but also of simple, directly and actually experienced phenomena. For any of these categories of thought, we typically think that we have a single concept that repeatedly comes to mind, but we really have a multitude of closely related concepts, differing in many ways. Our concepts are intricately interrelated, with heirarchical relationships being only one common type. The simplest concepts are what might be called paramattha concepts, because they do have directly observed referents; these are concepts of such experiences as hardness, pleasantness, attention, sounds, etc., not the phenomena themselves, but our ideas of them. Frequently, but not always, our concepts have language terms associated with them. Concepts arise in the mind, where previously they were not present, and then they cease. Moreover, the patterns for our concepts, passed along in memory, are modified from time to time. The remembered templates change less frequently than their instances that arise and cease very frequently, but even these templates come and go, and certainly many if not all cease upon death. These are all conditioned mental phenomena that arise and cease, and are impermanent. The intended referents of most concepts are nonexistent, or, at least, in-principle unobservable, because all that is directly knowable are the contents of mind (where, by "mind" here, I mean nama), and not "things out in the world". The concepts, themselves, are ideas, and these are observable through the mind door just as images are observable through the eye door or sounds through the ear door. More specific than the concepts are those ideas I call "percepts", and they amount to mental constructs built by combining concepts with specific sequences of directly experienced phenomena. An example is the percept of "the tree I see right now through the window". This mental object is far more specific than the general concept of 'tree', and it *appears* as an entity that I am *seeing* - a "real thing" outside in the world. But such a percept is basically of the same type as a concept. It is a mental construct which arises and ceases, which is directly and actually observed, but seems to point to an entity other than itself, a self-existent, mind-independent entity. It seems to me that often you do not distinguish between concept and intended referent, and between percept and apparent referent, particularly as regards tthe matter of existence. I think that the distinction between concept/percept and intended referent is important. Our percepts, moreso than our concepts, change very quickly. The tree percept we have one moment is quite different from the tree percept of a few moments earlier, because the later one is based on different rupic phenomena. But the alleged tree, itself, which *seems* to change - now swaying this way, now swaying that way, doesn't actually change at all due to not actually existing! The percepts exist - they arise, cease, get replaced by other ones etc; but their referents typically do not. I don't think you make this distinction between ideas and their alleged referents, at least not consistently, and that is what I mean by conflating the two. I hope this clarifies what I meant sufficiently to enable you to explain where I am off base in understanding your position, if I am off base. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21649 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:00am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, > It is indeed good to be able to exchange these views, with you. I > hope this exchange will provide you useful material to chew on. It > does help me to understand different ideas, and certain experiences I > have by discussing these issues. Yes I think it is always fruitful to discuss dhamma, if we cannot get to right view immediately, we can at least get to see our own views from a different perspective. > In my mind there is a difference in wisdom as far as its development > is concerned. The wisdom (panna) ,begins with samadhi, > concentration, jhana, insight, stream entry and matures to break > through to the state of Arahat. Rob M. mentioned in his post following yours, about sparks and flame. I think panna like anything else rises and falls immediately. Depending on accumulated panna, frequency of these sparks of wisdom arises to do their jobs in steering us towards the correct understanding. So I believe that it is precisely these sparks which arises and falls, unawares to us, between moments of thinking and other sense impressions, which determine the direction of how anything is finally understood, even if this be only on the intellectual level. Understanding is understanding no matter what level. I believe that a jhana practitioner must have a high degree of panna, but this is not of the same kind as that of satipatthana. A jhana meditator does not need to have heard about the Teachings, in which case he will not reach vipassana. > We may call the intellectual understanding of right view, difference > between Kamma/vipaka etc. worldly wisdom, they are merely knowing the > each stage of the path as we traverse it to-wards Nibbana. Like the > citta that conditions the cuti-citta, panna conditions the break away > from Samsara to reach Nibbana. There are people who can recite the Tipitaka by heart, who know the detailed description of what takes place at different stages of nana, does this mean that they have 'understanding'? On the other hand, there are those who know only very limited theory, but they may have deeply pondered what little they have heard, and they know how to apply this in daily life, wouldn't these be having more panna? > I really don't know whether it is the knowlege or the understanding > that passes from one life to the other, but I take it to be the > accumulated knowledge of the past life that make us understand , > related matters, in this life. I am not very clear about this either ;-). > Meditation or bhavana is called the cultivation of the mind. Whole > of Buddha's teaching is to lead us to develop the mind (nama). It is > the diligent meditation that will make us experience paramatta > dhamma, and understand that all conceptual things are subject to > change and perish, and they are unsatisfactory, and 'self' is a > delusion. We will understand that it is attachment (lobha), aversion > (dosa) and delusion(moha) that keep us bound to the samasara,and that > knowledge (panna), will cause the break away from samasara. You are interested in Abhidhamma, so you will surely agree that there is only this moment of arising and falling. That sati and panna arises because of conditions and this can happen at anytime and place. When there is sati now, there is no concept of time and place for doing any activity. It is only in moments of being caught in concepts of self and other, does the idea of "doing" and time and place occur. Agreed, that right effort is necessary, but you will also agree that 'wrong effort' can take one in exactly the opposite direction?! So what decides which effort is right or wrong, intention? Intention towards what? Penetrating the Trilakkhana? It is my understanding that if panna does arise for a moment to illuminate this fact, by the time one gets down to do something towards this end, the understanding is already lost and lobha takes control. And this would I think, dictate the quality of the practice. So what is important then? Becoming more intimate with the nature of these realities, intellectually, but more so experientially, without choice without control, no? > Abhidhamma is Buddha's teachings in ultimate terms, opposed to > convential terminology he used in Sutta Pitaka. It is a difficult > Dhamma to undertand, but which becomes evident in Insight Meditation > through experiencing the arising and falling away of nama-rupa and > so on. One must know what exactly this Trilakhana is and the characteristic of what it is. I think you already know that concepts do not have this characteristic, so it must be a dhamma. And you know that dhamma is so elusive that it is only sati which can be aware of it, and sati as I said, is anatta and arises only when the conditions are right. Does "wanting" provide the right conditions for sati? *Lobha can appear very calm too*. With all the accumulated avijja and tendency to lobha, would you risk believing what the result of your practice says!? BTW, I think Abhidhamma is the `easy' one of the two; there is comparatively little chance of making a mistake in interpretation. > Lord Buddha in the conclusion of his discourse on the Four > Foundations of Mindfulness-Mahasatipatthgana Sutta says: > > "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two > years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... > three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits > can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if > there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of > reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be > expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or -- if there be > any remnant of clinging-sustenance -- non-return. > "'This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the > overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & > distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the > realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of > reference.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said." > > You can become an Arahat in this very life,if you follow the > instructions for meditation given in this Sutta. Learning Abhidhamm, > will be a great advantage in making a success of vipassana meditation. I think Buddha wasn't refering to formal sitting practice, but to "Satipatthana" which is what this sutta is all about. And yes, it can happen even in less than 7 days. But this wouldn't have been a result of putting effort of the wrong kind, no? And even if it did happen in seven days, would it have been because of the practice done in this lifetime alone? The story of the Buddha having sat down under the Bodhi tree and finally being enlightened, gives some people the impression that he came upon a "method" of practice, which he later gave out in the form of the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. But I don't think this is the case. There is no method, let alone a short cut to enlightenment. The Zen people are just off on this, they imply that they have discovered an even shorter cut!! Buddha discovered and just explained these realities. It took him the necessary time to reach a full understanding, so does it everyone else. We all have to deal with the baggage of accumulated ignorance which we have with the tools that we have, which is no different from these very same accumulated tendencies. Await your response. Best wishes, Sukin. 21650 From: nidive Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:38am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi RobertK & Christine, > The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, > taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six > kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, > subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. I realized that I am wrong in interpreting the term "ideas" or " mind objects". (I forgot about nibbana!) But if "ideas" or "mind objects" does not include pannatti, how could one discern the cessation of craving with regard to pannatti? Doesn't contact between the intellect and pannatti cause feelings to arise? "Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person -- through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing -- would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html Swee Boon 21651 From: smallchap Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) Dear Robert K, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, smallchap > > wrote: > > > p.s. Professor Y. Karunadasa teaches Dhamma courses in > Singapore > > at the Buddhist Library. If I find the opportunity I will > sit a > > course of Abhidhamma under his tutorship. > > _____________ > Please pay my deep respects. > RobertK Will do when I meet him. smallchap 21652 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:44am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Sukin, Thank you for your last message. I was wandering how best to make a reply. I am a Buddhist and after reading a lot on Buddhism and meeting friends, who were Meditators, took to meditation myself. The bulk of the Buddha's teachings were to his disciples the Bikkhus. The appropriate monastic environment for the Bikkhus, facilitated their meditation. While his disciples found it convenient to follow the path, divided under the Sila, Samadhi, Panna. The laymen, followed the dhamma, grouped under Dana,Sila, Bhavana. I am sure you know this therefore I will not elaborate on it. In either case meditation( bhavana ) is the important element of Buddha's teaching. All his teachings stress the necessity to accomplish Sila,Samadhi,Panna to free one self from the suffering in the Samsara. The discourses of the Buddha, made to his Bikkhus and lay disciples, are collected in the Sutta Pitaka. They are all directions for his followers, how to lead a life of morality and Meditate, as it is the only way to liberate themselves from the suffering in the cycle of birth and death. In the Maha satipattahna Sutta, he lays down all the essential directions for his disciples to lead a noble life of a yogi ( one who meditates to have insight into anicca, dukka,anatma and attain nibbana). I have taken the following extract from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta, from the website "accesstoinsight" " There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. " These are of course instructions given to his Bikkhus , but we can use these instructions, adjusted to our situation as laymen, with lay responsibilities. I have been following meditation accordingly. The Buddha according to records, did not make the discourse on Abhidhamma to his disciples. He made the discourse to the Devas. Only Venerable Sariputta had access to it. However, the contents of the Abhidhamma teachings were included in his discourses to his Bikkhus, which are now collected in the Sutta Pitaka. Abhidhamma is abstract, bare bones of Buddha's teachings as found in the Sutta Pitaka (paramatta dhamma) and said to be difficult to understand, and in Buddhist Countries like Sri Lanka, the lay Buddhists did not have access to it. It is only in recent time that the lay persons began to study it. I tried to read the Abhidhamma, in a book written by Venerable Narada Thero, many years ago,and I found it difficult and boring. So I gave it up. Thereafter, I did not bother about it, until very recently I came accross the website 'vipassana.info". I saw the documents on Abhidhamma, and read the first two chapters, of Nina's book on Abhidhamma in Daily Life, and found it more easy to read, and by now, after several years of meditation, I am familier with the subject matter. I am determined to finish reading her book . I read it little by little, when I have the time. I had to pose some questions, to Nina, and I was directed to this Forum. Some of the questions were interesting and I though I could make a positive contribution, and therefore,made my first post and few others thereafter. Abhidhamma is certainly a very interesting teaching of the Buddha, and is beneficial for meditation, and understanding the Dhamma better. with metta, Yasalalaka 21653 From: m. nease Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya Hi Michael, ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Newton To: Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya > Actually,James,it's not my interpretation.I'm > just saying what I actually am directly reading in > this sutta.I'm unclear, where The Buddha actually > commands Vassakara to-wage war with the Vajjis as I > am going over the text which I have a hard copy of. > Seems nowhere to be found. Of course you are correct--the Buddha did not command or suggest that Vassakara (or his boss, Ajatasattu, the king of Magadha, rather) attack the Vajjis. In fact, he affirmed (via Ananda) that the seven conditions leading to a nation's welfare (which he had taught to the Vajjis when he lived in Vesali, at the Sarandada shrine) endured among the Vajjis. That being the case, his advice to Vassakara was: "So long, brahman, as these endure among the Vajjis, and the Vajjis are known for it, their growth is to be expected, not their decline." Vassakara clearly took this (correctly) to mean that it would not be a good idea to attack the Vajjis. Vassakara: "No harm, indeed, can be done to the Vajjis in battle by Magadha's king, Ajatasattu, except through treachery or discord. Well, then, Venerable Gotama, we will take our leave, for we have much to perform, much work to do." When the Buddha dismisses him with, "Do as now seems fit to you, brahman", (as he often dismissed laypeople and sometimes bhikkhus), Vassakara is clearly returning to Ajatasattu to advise him NOT to attack the Vajjis. To read this as a justification for or instruction to war is to diametrically misread this discourse, although to make or not make war is beside its point--its point is to instruct those present in the conditions for the welfare first of nations, then of bhikkhus. There is no suggestion here or elsewhere in the tipitaka that I'm aware of that war is for the welfare of anyone. Just my opinions, Michael--thanks for your patience. mike 21654 From: m. nease Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Cheers!!! Yes, Happy Birthday, Jon--and here's to an end to birthdays! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Three Cheers!!! > Chris > > You're not supposed to know these things, but thanks anyway! > > Wishing SarahF all the best, too. (And I'm sure she appreciates how > fortunate she is to have such a lovely, charming Mum.) > > Now, back to the list ... ;-)) > > Jon > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Jon, > > > > Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday to you! Happy Birthday dear > > Jon ... Happy Birthday to you! > > > > And SarahF is 22 today! How could she get to be older than her > > mother? :-) > > > > Many happy returns Jon - and may they be in happier years than this > > one. > > > > much metta, > > Chris 21655 From: Michael Newton Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Michael, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Newton > To: > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:44 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya > > > > Actually,James,it's not my interpretation.I'm > > just saying what I actually am directly reading in > > this sutta.I'm unclear, where The Buddha actually > > commands Vassakara to-wage war with the Vajjis as > I > > am going over the text which I have a hard copy > of. > > Seems nowhere to be found. > > Of course you are correct--the Buddha did not > command or suggest that > Vassakara (or his boss, Ajatasattu, the king of > Magadha, rather) attack the > Vajjis. In fact, he affirmed (via Ananda) that the > seven conditions leading > to a nation's welfare (which he had taught to the > Vajjis when he lived in > Vesali, at the Sarandada shrine) endured among the > Vajjis. That being the > case, his advice to Vassakara was: "So long, > brahman, as these endure among > the Vajjis, and the Vajjis are known for it, their > growth is to be expected, > not their decline." Vassakara clearly took this > (correctly) to mean that it > would not be a good idea to attack the Vajjis. > Vassakara: "No harm, > indeed, can be done to the Vajjis in battle by > Magadha's king, Ajatasattu, > except through treachery or discord. Well, then, > Venerable Gotama, we will > take our leave, for we have much to perform, much > work to do." > > When the Buddha dismisses him with, "Do as now > seems fit to you, brahman", > (as he often dismissed laypeople and sometimes > bhikkhus), Vassakara is > clearly returning to Ajatasattu to advise him NOT to > attack the Vajjis. > > To read this as a justification for or instruction > to war is to > diametrically misread this discourse, although to > make or not make war is > beside its point--its point is to instruct those > present in the conditions > for the welfare first of nations, then of bhikkhus. > There is no suggestion > here or elsewhere in the tipitaka that I'm aware of > that war is for the > welfare of anyone. > > Just my opinions, Michael--thanks for your patience. > > mike > Hello!Mike; Fantastic,Mike,you filled in the parts,that I didn't understand.Yes,if you don't understand the complete context one misunderstands the meaning of the suttas in those circumstances.Thank you for clearing this up.Yours in the Dhamma,Michael > 21656 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:04am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Sukin, Thanks for the feedback. I am not knowledge about the path moment, the citta moment, the phala citta, and path consciousness so I can't really comment on what you said regarding concentration. I would say that concentration is a necessary condition for wisdom, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present. knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html I wonder if you can clarify the following comment. But it seems to me rather, that what you suggest is more like an intellectual overlay. It seems to be like forcing an idea on to an experience? In particular, what idea is it? Again, your feedback is appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > > Yes, that is if we are talking about the path moment. However the > reason I mentioned 'in and of itself' with reference to > concentration, was not in reference to this. I was talking about > deliberate practice, which may be what you are talking about too. If > so, then I am not sure how much concentration practice plays a part > in deciding the depth of understanding during path moment. I do know > from theory however, that at the time of path consciousness there is > a degree of high concentration which *is* necessary. But this > wouldn't have been the product of previous practice in > concentration, but as a result of having Nibanna as object. And as I > understand, this is just one citta moment which never arises again > ever, since it has done its job in the corresponding level of > sainthood. So it seems that concentration practice has no bearing to > this. The resultant phala citta may depend on previous practice, I > don't know. However, I don't think this resultant citta is that > important? > > > Your feedback is appreciated. > > Now I wait for your feedback. > > I just remembered about your comment in a letter before this one to > which I wanted to say something. Hope you don't mind me saying it > here. > You said that the distinction between concept and reality is an > unnecessary intellectual overlay. You seemed to imply that the > important point was to see all experiences as this is not mine. > This I am not. This is not my self. Or that whatever it is, > it's 'impermanent'. > The distinction between concept and reality on the level of > contemplation may be intellectual, but when something is > experienced, it can be "recognized" as concept or reality. Of course > it would be unrealistic to say that this would be the case for > beginners like me, and even if it did, there will surely be papanca > following it, wondering "What that was….?" > > But it seems to me rather, that what you suggest is more like an > intellectual overlay. It seems to be like forcing an idea on to an > experience? > > Now you will give me feedback I am sure! ;-) > > Best wishes, > Sukin. 21657 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:04am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Sukin, Thanks for the feedback. I am not knowledge about the path moment, the citta moment, the phala citta, and path consciousness so I can't really comment on what you said regarding concentration. I would say that concentration is a necessary condition for wisdom, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present. knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn12-023.html I wonder if you can clarify the following comment. But it seems to me rather, that what you suggest is more like an intellectual overlay. It seems to be like forcing an idea on to an experience? In particular, what idea is it? Again, your feedback is appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, > [snip] > > Yes, that is if we are talking about the path moment. However the > reason I mentioned 'in and of itself' with reference to > concentration, was not in reference to this. I was talking about > deliberate practice, which may be what you are talking about too. If > so, then I am not sure how much concentration practice plays a part > in deciding the depth of understanding during path moment. I do know > from theory however, that at the time of path consciousness there is > a degree of high concentration which *is* necessary. But this > wouldn't have been the product of previous practice in > concentration, but as a result of having Nibanna as object. And as I > understand, this is just one citta moment which never arises again > ever, since it has done its job in the corresponding level of > sainthood. So it seems that concentration practice has no bearing to > this. The resultant phala citta may depend on previous practice, I > don't know. However, I don't think this resultant citta is that > important? > > > Your feedback is appreciated. > > Now I wait for your feedback. > > I just remembered about your comment in a letter before this one to > which I wanted to say something. Hope you don't mind me saying it > here. > You said that the distinction between concept and reality is an > unnecessary intellectual overlay. You seemed to imply that the > important point was to see all experiences as this is not mine. > This I am not. This is not my self. Or that whatever it is, > it's 'impermanent'. > The distinction between concept and reality on the level of > contemplation may be intellectual, but when something is > experienced, it can be "recognized" as concept or reality. Of course > it would be unrealistic to say that this would be the case for > beginners like me, and even if it did, there will surely be papanca > following it, wondering "What that was….?" > > But it seems to me rather, that what you suggest is more like an > intellectual overlay. It seems to be like forcing an idea on to an > experience? > > Now you will give me feedback I am sure! ;-) > > Best wishes, > Sukin. 21658 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Robert K, Pardon me for jumping in. I find your comments regarding concept a bit puzzling. On one hand I see that you say: Concepts (pannati) cannot arise or pass away, they are simply non- existent. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21636 On the other hand, I see that you say: Concepts are the object of citta but not in quite the same way as paramattha dhammas. Could you explain how it is possible that concepts are the object of citta if they are non-existent in the first place?? Your explanation is appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---""But do pannattis (concepts) condition conditioned dhammas?""" > Dear Swee boon, > [snip] > Concepts are the object of citta but not in quite the same way as > paramattha dhammas. [snip] > RobertK 21659 From: robmoult Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 0:37pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 22-23 for comment What does exist? Slide Contents ============== Ultimate Realities (Paramattha): - Consciousness (Citta) - Mental Factors (Cetasikas) - Physical Phenomena (Rūpa) - Nibbāna Concept of Self - Matter (Rūpa) -> Rūpa - Feeling (Vedanā) -> Cetasika - Perception (Saññā) -> Cetasika - Mental Formations (Sankhāra) -> 50 Cetasikas - Consciousness (Viññāna) -> Citta Matter, Feeling, Perception, Mental Formations and Consciousness are the 5 Aggregates Speaker Notes ============= If "people" do not exist, what does exist? What are the component parts? According to the Abhidhamma, there are four types of things that exist: - Consciousness (Citta in Pali) - Mental Factors (Cetasikas in Pali) - Physical Phenomena (Rūpa in Pali) - Nibbāna The first three of these ultimate realities are called "conditioned realities"; this means that they arise because of other conditions and only last for an instant before falling away. In the Suttas, the Buddha often spoke of a being consisting of the "five aggregates" (pañca-khandha in Pali). This chart shows how the five aggregates fit into the first three types of ultimate realities. 21660 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:59pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment(yasa.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > > > Abhidhamma is abstract, bare bones of Buddha's teachings as found in > the Sutta Pitaka (paramatta dhamma) and said to be difficult to > understand, and in Buddhist Countries like Sri Lanka, the lay > Buddhists did not have access to it. It is only in recent time that > the lay persons began to study it. ___________________________--- Dear Yasalalaka, Just a small point. I agree that the bhikkhus usually had more time and access to the Tipitaka, and of course their skill in pali was a great advantage for study too. But also laypeople right from the time of the Buddha knew Abhidhamma. I found this small example regarding Sri lanka: http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhidhamma_philosophy_its_estima.htm "" In the 10th century A.C. on the order of king Kassapa V of Ceylon, the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka was inscribed on gold plates, and the first of these books, the Dhammasangani, was set with jewels. When the work was completed, the precious manuscripts were taken in a huge procession to a beautiful monastery and deposited there. Another king of Ceylon, Vijaya Bahu (11th century), used to study the Dhammasangani in the early morning before he took up his royal duties, and he prepared a translation of it into Sinhalese, which however has not been preserved."" RobertK 21661 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:23pm Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Dear Swee Boon and Christine, Thanks for the translation from Ven,. Bodhi Christine - one I like. I had time to study the Pali more. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Swee Boon::Furthermore, I have sutta evidence that suggests that pannattis do "arise" and "fall away". _______________ Robert: The Pali is 'dhamma' as far as I can see. What the translator > calls "intellect" is mano. > But anyway from my brief glance at the pali it is clear that what > is being referred to are ayatana - i.e. paramattha dhammas. It is > not concepts or pannati at all. ------------------------- Swe boon: I do not take this position. The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. >Swee Boon: Thank you for posting. That was the third sextet. The second sextet > is: > > "'The six external media should be known.' Thus it was said. In > reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the > aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the > idea-medium (or mind-objects medium). 'The six external media should > be known.' Thus it was said. And in reference to this was it said. > This is the second sextet. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn148.html > > The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, > taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six kinds > of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, subtle > rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. > > As regards dhammarammana, the sixth class of arammana, this can again > be subdivided into six classes. > > They are : > 1. The five sense-organs (pasada-rupas) > 2. The sixteen subtle rupas (sukhuma-rupas) > 3. Citta > 4. Cetasika > 5. Nibbana > 6. Conventional terms or concepts (pannatti) > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/abhid16.html > > I think that my interpretation of "ideas" or "mind-objects" ties in > with what Nina had given in ADL. ___________________ The Pali of the Sutta is not talking about dhammarammana - which as you correctly note above does include pannatti, concept. The sutta is about ayatana (sense fields) and what the translation from access to insight calls 'ideas'is dhammayatana. Dhammayatana only refers to paramattha dhammas and never includes pannati, concepts . Note that in the 6 types of dhammarammana you give above nibbana also does not arise or pass away. RobertK > > > > > Bodhi's translation is: "'The six classes of consciousness should be > > understood.' So it was said. And with reference to what was this > > said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; > > dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; dependent > > on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; dependent on the > > tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; dependent on the > > body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; dependent on the mind > > and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises. So it was with > > reference to this that it was said: 'The six classes of > > consciousness should be understood.' > 21662 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment(yasa.. RobertK, thankyou for the information. But the kings were privileged people weren't they ? with metta Yasalalaka 21663 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:41pm Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > Pardon me for jumping in. I find your comments regarding concept a > bit puzzling. On one hand I see that you say: > > > Concepts (pannati) cannot arise or pass away, they are simply non- > existent. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21636 > > On the other hand, I see that you say: > > > Concepts are the object of citta but not in quite the same way as > paramattha dhammas. > > > Could you explain how it is possible that concepts are the object of > citta if they are non-existent in the first place?? > > Your explanation is appreciated. > > Regards, > Victor >______________ A good question Victor. I think this can only be properly understood directly - By learning to study the realities that arise here and now it can be seen that when there is a process of conceptualising that in fact there is only citta and cetasika (consciousness and mental factors). So citta is forming up concepts. The process of conceptualising is a function of mentality - it is not something bad at all. Without this process happening we couldn't talk or know what food tastes good. We couldn't even cross the road. We would be more helpless than day old babies. So the development of insight is not about suppressing concepts, rather there is distinguishing of concept from paramattha. The Abhidhammathasangaha says about concepts like human, person, man, chariot, lute that "All such different things , though they do not exist in the ultimate sense , become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of ultimate things (paramattha dhammas)"(bodhi p.326 Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas directly even during the processes of thinking that take concepts for objects. Now there is thinking happening that is trying to comprehend what was just read. The process of thinking is real and it might be rooted in lobha (desire) that wants to understand. The lobha is real - is it seen as just a dhamma , not you. There is also feeling; if you liked what was written this will be pleasant feeling - is it seen as just a conditioned dhamma, not you. And if you didn't like it there was unpleasant feeling, not you. These present objects must be seen wisely otherwise there will always be doubt and one will not gain confidence. Or one will settle for attachment to the Dhamma rather than insight. Or worse become someone whose aim is to look for little flaws thinking that this is proper investigation. RobertK 21664 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment(yasa.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > RobertK, > > thankyou for the information. But the kings were privileged people > weren't they ? > > with metta > > Yasalalaka ___ Dear Yasalaka, Yes, they were. And we are just as privileged as them - we can study Abhidhamma too. Someone may be rich and successful at this time in Sri lanka and not even know anything about the Abhidhamma. On the other hand millenia ago poor villagers went to the temple almost daily and listened to wise monks expound subtle points of Abhidhamma. They were greatly privileged. Robertk 21665 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:13pm Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) --- Dear swee boon, Ignore my last post as I sent it before seeing this one. I like your question below. See my comments after: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi RobertK & Christine, > > > The five classes of arammana which are visible object, sound, smell, > > taste and bodily impressions are rupa ; the sixth class, the six > > kinds of dhammarammana, comprises cittas, cetasikas, pasada rupas, > > subtle rupas, nibbana and also pannatti. > > I realized that I am wrong in interpreting the term "ideas" or " mind > objects". (I forgot about nibbana!) > > But if "ideas" or "mind objects" does not include pannatti, how could > one discern the cessation of craving with regard to pannatti? Doesn't > contact between the intellect and pannatti cause feelings to arise? > > __________________ Before we studied Dhamma and developed satipatthana we lived entirely within the conceptual world. Now we are learning, slowly, about the real world, we go beneath the surface and fathom life as it really is. As you indicated there is so much clinging to concepts. I gave this yestrday about what avijja (ignorance) is in the wheel of paticcasaumppada . It is what keeps us chained>:(p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women, pannatti] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]." Let me explain by example. We see a nice car or pretty woman. Immediately there is desire (assuming we like pretty woman or nice cars - if not subsitute your favourite thing)of some degree. In fact there was simply a moment of visible object . What happened next was that minddoor processes formed up concepts rooted in lobha (desire). If it is not seen as it is then the processes rooted in lobha can continue on and on. Maybe the car is out of sight now but we are completely caught up in thought: "how can I get the money to buy that" A black one would be nice", maybe I could do some overtime at work", "I wonder if my girlfriend would like it"..it could last for days! Very natural that this happens but insight into the processes cuts through and shows what is really present: i.e citta and cetisaka. It breaks up the 'story', the whole, into what is really there, which is only evanescent elements: "when the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements (dhatus ie. paramattha dhammas), the characteristic of not-self become apparent in its true nature: Visuddhimagga xx15 Very gradually this insighting into reality becomes more and more habitual until: "perception of not-self becomes anchored (anattasanna santhathi): ..reckoned as the perception of not-self as follows, viz 'All dhammas are not self' on account of their being devoid of esssence, on account of their proceeding uncontrolled, on account of their being other, on account of their being vacant, on account of their being void and empty, becomes anchored in the heart, becomes established extremely firmly"endquote from The Udanatthakatha (translation masefield p595) This is a passage from Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharwanaket that is relevant: """When we cling to the general appearance of male or female, it shows that the object is not a paramattha dhamma. When we know that we see a man or woman, we don't just know the reality that appears through the eyes, but we have an image (nimitta), a concept on account of what appears through the eyes. The image of the general appearance of a man or woman is the foundation of defilements.1 Through the power of desire (chanda raga) we take that image for something attractive. When we like a concept such as a belt, it shows that the belt is an attractive image. One is attached to it, one is ruled by desire. If the belt is not beautiful, if it is not an attractive nimitta (image), one does not like it. On account of colours that appear through the eyes, there can be different nimittas, attractive or unattractive. We read further on in the Atthasalini: 'Grasps the details (anuvyañjana), i.e., takes the various modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking straight ahead, looking askance, which have earned the name of "details," they manifest, reveal the defilements.' The details are the conditions that cause defilements to appear. When someone likes a belt he likes the general appearance, the image, and the details. If all belts were the same, if there were no variety of them, the details would not be different. However, there are many kinds of belts and they are different as to the details. The details condition the arising of different kinds of defilements. Question: If we don't cling to concepts, I fear that we won't know that this is a pen. Sujin: That is not so. We should know realities in accordance with the truth. What appears through the eyes falls away, and then there are mind-door process cittas, which arise afterwards and know a concept. Paññå (wisdom) should know realities as they are. It should know what is visible object, which appears through the eye-door. It should know that the experience of visible object is different from the moment that citta knows a concept. Thus we can become detached from the idea that visible object that appears are beings, people, or things; we can become detached from that which is the foundation of clinging. We should understand that when it is known that there is a man, a woman, beings, or different people, the object is an image or concept known through the mind-door. When we develop satipaììhåna we should know, in order to be able to realise the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, the characteristics of the realities just as they naturally appear. It should be known that paramattha dhammas are not concepts. One should continue to develop paññå when realities appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense, and mind-door."'endquote RobertK 21666 From: yasalalaka Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:16pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment(yasa.. RobertK, Mine was a harmless remark.I did not mean ill towards any body. I am sorry if I made you think so. with metta, Yasalalaka 21667 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:19pm Subject: [dsg] Topics of Conversation (Re: the Bogor group) Hi Sarah, Thanks for this reply! I am glad that you enjoy the references. I tend to think that the word "bhava" means not only "sentiet being" but "being", "becoming", and "existence". I tend to see that the discussions on whether things exist or not as idle chatter because I don't see them relevant to the Buddha's teaching. This is how I see it: the Buddha's teaching in and of itself is not concerned about figuring out "what is it?" or "does it exist?" It is really about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is about the origin of dukkha, the way that leads to the cessation of dukkha. Regarding the five aggregates, I would say that they include every conditioned, fabricated phenomenon/thing/situation. They include everything in the world from concrete objects such as desk, body, eye, nose, to joy, grief, happiness, to marriage, relationship, separation, union to abstract ideas, concepts. I see that the Buddha's teaching is about liberation from the world. Your feedback is appreciated! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Appreciating all your recent posts;-)) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thank you for sharing your comments and quotes from the commentaries. > .... > Likewise, many thanks for your detailed and very interesting comments;-) > ..... > > I agree that the discourse, like most of the discourses, is > > addressed to bhikkhus, not to lay followers. > > > > I checked the Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary and found > > that under the word "bhava": > > --abhava this or that life, any form of existence, some sort of > > existence. > > > > I think a bit of etymology of the word "bhava"/"bhavati" might of > > some interest. > .... > Thank you so much for inc. the other dictionary entry, Heidegger link and > the Dhp verse (gahakaaraka is used, I note, for house-builder in that > context, but I understand your point of the metaphor). > > What we are looking at specifically is the meaning of bhavabhava in the > sutta under topics of idle chatter. In this context, I understand the > definition you give above, referring to `any form of existence' to be > correct. As I mentioned, in the PTS transl, it has "talk of becoming and > not-becoming" with a footnote to say it can also mean "all sorts of > becomings". > > B.Bodhi adds an interesting paragraph on `bhava' and its translation in > his introduction to Samyutta Nikaya, p52: > > "Bhava, in MLDB, was translated "being." In seeking an alternative, I had > first experimented with "becoming," but when the shortcomings in this > choice were pointed out to me I decided to return to "existence" used in > my earlier translations. Bhava, however, is not "existence" in the sense > of the most universal ontological category, that which is shared by > everything from the dishes in the kitchen sink to the numbers in a > mathematical equation. Existence in the latter sense is covered by the > verb atthi and the abstract noun atthitaa. Bhava is concrete sentient > existence in one of the three realms of existence posited by Buddhist > cosmology, a span of life beginning with conception and ending in death. > In th formula of dependent origination it is understood to mean both i) > the active side of life that produces rebirth into a particular mode of > sentient existence, in other words rebirth-producing kamma; and ii) the > mode of sentient existence that results from such activity." > > I take it you would not agree with these comments either? > ..... > > The purpose of drawing on the etymology of the > > word "bhava"/"bhavati" is to show the meaning of the word and how it > > can be understood in relation to the Buddha's teaching. I would > > think the core of the Buddha's teaching is not about what exists and > > what does not exist, or about whether dhamma exists or not. I would > > say that the Buddha's teaching is about dukkha and cessation of > > dukkha. > ..... > "sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa - briefly, the five khandhas > of attachment are suffering". > > In other words, as I was discussing with Christine regarding change, > suffering as the 1st Noble Truth cannot be understood apart from the 5 > khandhas of attachment. So the khandhas (and `existing' dhammas which make > up the khandhas) have to be clearly known by panna. As I understand, > without the clear comprehension of these dhammas and the unsatisfactory > nature of them, and of craving as origin, there cannot be the path > leading to the cessation of that same craving. > > Thanks again for your helpful and interesting references. I'll be glad to > hear any further feedback. > > Metta, > > Sarah 21668 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:48pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment(yasa.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > > > RobertK, > > Mine was a harmless remark.I did not mean ill towards any body. > > I am sorry if I made you think so. > > with metta, > > Yasalalaka _______ Dear Yasalaka, You certainly never made me think so at all. I always appreciate your comments. RobertK 21669 From: Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:43pm Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas- for printer april 28.pdf Uploaded by : rjkjp1 Description : z-Survey of Paramattha Dhammas You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/A%20Survey%20of%20Paramattha%20Dhammas-%20for%20printer%20april%2028.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, rjkjp1 21670 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:49pm Subject: Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear Group Survey Of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (translated by Nina)has just been sent to the printer. I also uploaded a file to this group. It is 470 pages so will take up to 10 minutes to download. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup > group. > > File : /A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas- for printer april 28.pdf > Uploaded by : rjkjp1 > Description : z-Survey of Paramattha Dhammas > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/A%20Survey% 20of%20Paramattha%20Dhammas-%20for%20printer%20april%2028.pdf > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > rjkjp1 21671 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Smallchap, > > For me words and'things' are in > > their very nature, permanent, they refer to something that is > > "there", even if only for a moment. > > S: I have much difficulties trying to understand this statement. > Could you elaborate further? > You mean everything(concept) that is there is permanent? There > are arising, presence and disolution in a "moment". The same > must apply to concept. This is a little hard for me to explain. Let me try to do it in an indirect way. It is taking concepts to be real which is the cause for us uninstructed worldings being caught in the vicious cycle of samsara. In this perception, things are *there*, permanent and real. Avijja is what makes them appear so, and it is only through avijja that we then 'infer' their impermanence. There is no direct perception of impermanence. Or another way to put this is, "does a computer arise and fall?" The answer can only be "No". The computer is not there, but it does appear to be there and there and there, this is because of the nature of 'concept', it cannot but appear permanent. > Even the word and description > > of "impermanence" is not the actual fact of impermanence. So when > > one uses impermanence to refer to 'things', then it has a > > different > > meaning to me. In order to drop the idea of permanence with > > reference > > to objects, I now use the idea of impermanence; this > > understanding can > > lead to a dead-end. > > S: There is such thing as right view about phenomena as oppose > to wrong view. I will cite a few examples of how the idea of > impermanece of things(concepts) that did not lead to dead end. > > 1. Prince Siddattha after seeing the four signs, decided to make > the Great Renunciation. > > 2. Khema, Queen of King Bimbisara, after seeing the beautiful > woman created by the Buddha turned into bones, came to > understand that there was no beauty in form, and subsequently > became as arahat. > > 3. Ven Cula Panthaka, saw the clean cloth created by the Buddha > turned soiled in his hands after rubbig it, reflected on > impermanence and attained arahatship. > > There are many more examples like this in the Dhamapada stories. > You can find them in "Buddhist Legends" by Eugene Watson > Burlingame. But don't you think that these perceptions were just 'reminders' which then in an instant or ages later resulted in the direct perception of an arising and falling paramattha dhamma? By dead-end I meant those who have not heard the Buddha's message or understood his ultimate meaning, these can as likely the case be satisfied with the inferred meaning of impermanence. And this knowledge if held on to as final knowledge, wouldn't lead to liberation. > > > Please note that I am not saying that it is wrong to use the > > word > > impermanence with reference to conventional objects, just that > > it > > wouldn't have the same meaning as when made in reference to > > paramattha dhammas. > > S: But you said it can lead to dead end?!?! It does have its value in bringing calm, and it can remind one about the ultimate meaning and so condition little by little more understanding until one finally comes to see the real thing. But please note, to my understanding, it must not be used like a mantra, "satipatthana" is the only way. To use the idea of anicca, dukkha and anatta to apply to all experiences will not lead to the direct perception. One must come to know the objects through the six- senses first. > > Hope I have not confused further, since I feel I am a bit off > > track > > because I had something else in mind when earlier I read your > > response > > and now have ended up writing something different. > > S: I am confused. ;-) Sorry, hope it is at least a little clearer now. Best wishes, Sukin. 21672 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, I am not well informed at all, and so I do not wish to proceed along with this discussion. It would have been different had I textual information to back my position. Beside, even if I did have textual backing, it wouldn't be used as a commandment, as anything said by the Buddha, one must 'prove' it for oneself first, at least to a degree which would then be reasonable to follow. But I do have some understandings which to me seem 'right', and I wish to share them with you, hoping that you will reflect on them. First of all, I think that the monk's life is completely different from the lay person's. A monk has had to have the panna to see the real danger of any kind of attachment and feel attracted to living as a monk. Only he can follow the 200 odd rules with understanding and clear comprehension. Jhana practice is a very high form of kusala, above dana and sila. People during Buddha's time and sometime later had the accumulations for such a practice. The requisite is not only the practitioner's own panna, but also the outer environment must be conducive. The monk's life inside the temple premise can be appropriate outer conditions, so I wouldn't say that a monk should not practice jhana. But only he can tell if indeed the outer and the inner conditions are right. But as a whole, yes I do believe that meditation (but not to neglect study) has been the way of life of monks through the ages. And this is part of the tradition of which I feel much gratitude towards. But, jhana is one form of formal meditation and it is the only one which was encouraged by the Buddha. I don't think there was any other; I think `vipassana meditation' is a modern invention of the practice of satipatthana. Vipassana is the development of insight based on this practice which has nothing to do with formal sitting. When Buddha talked about going to the wilderness etc I understand that he was mostly referring to Jhana. And if he did direct the monks attention to the arising and falling of realities, it was not because he thought that jhana *lead* to vipassana. But that jhana being the normal everyday activity of the monks in those times, they could then look closer at what they were doing and actually come to understand the meaning in ultimate terms of that. And yes, jhana is highly refined states, so I assume that if those monks could give up attachment to them, their understanding would be even deeper (but I am not sure about this). Another perhaps important point to note is that it was normal for most Indians during that time, to leave the household life and sit down to meditate most of the day. Also, that those people living in that period of time and in close proximity to the Buddha himself, could be said to have had high accumulations of panna. So they could hear one or two discourses and become enlightened, they did not need Abhidhamma as we the `slow ones' do. You mentioned Sila, Samadhi and Panna. Most people believe that they are separate from each other, that one must first have the foundation of Sila, then Samadhi and only then can Panna be developed. But from what I understanding, none of these can be separated. One cannot practice sila without `understanding' and there cannot be perfect Samadhi without the other two. Besides, at the moment of attention to a reality, satipatthana, at that moment, sila, samadhi and panna are all operating. However, it is panna which always has to lead, but we cannot *do* anything to make panna arise. The main conditions are association with the wise, hearing the correct dhamma, reflecting on what has been heard and applying those understandings. Whether this will happen depends on conditions beyond anyone's control. Yasalalaka, we do not have to continue with this if you do not want to. I know that some of what I have expressed goes against a few other member's understandings and I have already run into trouble more than once, so even I do not really feel like saying too much of the same thing. But I hope at least you don't mind what I have expressed above… Metta, Sukin. 21673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -Milinda's Questions. Dear Rob M, This is very good. I just took up Milinda's qu a few days ago, reading intro and also this simile of the chariot. The next Dhamma Issue I am translating takes a text from the Milinda. I read that it refers a great deal to all three parts of the Tipitaka. Buddhaghosa who was later referred also to the Milinda. It is remarkable. And these questions are very good for today. With appreciation, Nina. op 26-04-2003 10:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Do People Really Exist? > > > N: My companions call me Nâgasena. But the name and the person to > whom the name refers do not really exist. > 21674 From: robmoult Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -Milinda's Questions. Hi Nina, I agree with you 100%. If there is some aspect of the dhamma which confuses me, I look it up first in Milindapanha to see if there is anything there. I find this text to be very accessible and full of interesting points. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > This is very good. I just took up Milinda's qu a few days ago, reading intro > and also this simile of the chariot. The next Dhamma Issue I am translating > takes a text from the Milinda. I read that it refers a great deal to all > three parts of the Tipitaka. Buddhaghosa who was later referred also to the > Milinda. It is remarkable. And these questions are very good for today. 21675 From: smallchap Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) Dear Sukin, Thank you for taking the effort to clear my confusion. --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Hi Smallchap, > > > > For me words and'things' are in > > > their very nature, permanent, they refer to something that > is > > > "there", even if only for a moment. > > > > S: I have much difficulties trying to understand this > statement. > > Could you elaborate further? > > You mean everything(concept) that is there is permanent? > There > > are arising, presence and disolution in a "moment". The > same > > must apply to concept. > > This is a little hard for me to explain. Let me try to do it > in an > indirect way. It is taking concepts to be real which is the > cause > for us uninstructed worldings being caught in the vicious > cycle of > samsara. In this perception, things are *there*, permanent and > real. > Avijja is what makes them appear so, and it is only through > avijja > that we then 'infer' their impermanence. There is no direct > perception of impermanence. Or another way to put this is, > "does a > computer arise and fall?" The answer can only be "No". The > computer > is not there, but it does appear to be there and there and > there, > this is because of the nature of 'concept', it cannot but > appear > permanent. S: This will bring us back to Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta. It will be well that I pursue no further in this matter. > > Even the word and description > > > of "impermanence" is not the actual fact of impermanence. > So > when > > > one uses impermanence to refer to 'things', then it has a > > > different > > > meaning to me. In order to drop the idea of permanence > with > > > reference > > > to objects, I now use the idea of impermanence; this > > > understanding can > > > lead to a dead-end. > > > > S: There is such thing as right view about phenomena as > oppose > > to wrong view. I will cite a few examples of how the idea of > > impermanece of things(concepts) that did not lead to dead > end. > > > > 1. Prince Siddattha after seeing the four signs, decided to > make > > the Great Renunciation. > > > > 2. Khema, Queen of King Bimbisara, after seeing the > beautiful > > woman created by the Buddha turned into bones, came to > > understand that there was no beauty in form, and > subsequently > > became as arahat. > > > > 3. Ven Cula Panthaka, saw the clean cloth created by the > Buddha > > turned soiled in his hands after rubbig it, reflected on > > impermanence and attained arahatship. > > > > There are many more examples like this in the Dhamapada > stories. > > You can find them in "Buddhist Legends" by Eugene Watson > > Burlingame. > > But don't you think that these perceptions were just > 'reminders' > which then in an instant or ages later resulted in the direct > perception of an arising and falling paramattha dhamma? > By dead-end I meant those who have not heard the Buddha's > message or > understood his ultimate meaning, these can as likely the case > be > satisfied with the inferred meaning of impermanence. And this > knowledge if held on to as final knowledge, wouldn't lead to > liberation. S: Although I do not share your view completely, I must thank you for your effort of explaining it to me. My understanding is every kusala concept is the foundation of future insight. Every cultivation of the 37 enlightenment factors will reach it fullness when one wins the paths and the fruits. > > > Please note that I am not saying that it is wrong to use > the > > > word > > > impermanence with reference to conventional objects, just > that > > > it > > > wouldn't have the same meaning as when made in reference > to > > > paramattha dhammas. > > > > S: But you said it can lead to dead end?!?! > > It does have its value in bringing calm, and it can remind one > about > the ultimate meaning and so condition little by little more > understanding until one finally comes to see the real thing. > But please note, to my understanding, it must not be used like > a > mantra, "satipatthana" is the only way. To use the idea of > anicca, > dukkha and anatta to apply to all experiences will not lead to > the > direct perception. One must come to know the objects through > the six- > senses first. S: There are two approaches: 1. Sila, Samadha, Panna; 2. Panna, Sila, Samadhi. Either approach can lead to insight. smallchap 21676 From: smallchap Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 11:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) > S: Although I do not share your view completely, I must thank > you for your effort of explaining it to me. My understanding > is > every kusala concept is the foundation of future insight. > Every > cultivation of the 37 enlightenment factors will reach it > fullness when one wins the paths and the fruits. Kusala concept - Here I mean right view about concept. smallchap 21677 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 0:02am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Robert K, Thanks for your reply! I understand that you say citta forms up concepts. I also understand that you say concepts are non-existent. It makes sense to me that concepts are formed by mind. However, I find it puzzling to say that concepts are non-existent. Your feedback is appreciated. Regards, Victor > A good question Victor. > I think this can only be properly understood directly - By learning > to study the realities that arise here and now it can be seen that > when there is a process of conceptualising that in fact there is > only citta and cetasika (consciousness and mental factors). So citta > is forming up concepts. The process of conceptualising is a function > of mentality - it is not something bad at all. Without this process > happening we couldn't talk or know what food tastes good. We > couldn't even cross the road. We would be more helpless than day old > babies. So the development of insight is not about suppressing > concepts, rather there is distinguishing of concept from paramattha. > > The Abhidhammathasangaha says about > concepts like human, person, man, chariot, lute that "All such > different > things , though they do not exist in the ultimate sense , become > objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of ultimate things > (paramattha dhammas)"(bodhi p.326 > > Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not > concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? > Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All > the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse > concept for reality. Panna and sati can understand dhammas > directly even during the processes of thinking that take > concepts for objects. > Now there is thinking happening that is trying to comprehend what > was > just read. The process of thinking is real and it might be rooted in > lobha (desire) that wants to understand. The lobha is real - is it > seen as just a dhamma , not you. There is also feeling; if you liked > what was written this will be pleasant feeling - is it seen as just > a > conditioned dhamma, not you. And if you didn't like it there was > unpleasant feeling, not you. > These present objects must be seen wisely otherwise there will > always > be doubt and one will not gain confidence. Or one will settle for > attachment to the Dhamma rather than insight. Or worse become > someone > whose aim is to look for little flaws thinking that this is proper > investigation. > RobertK 21678 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > Thanks for your reply! > > I understand that you say citta forms up concepts. I also > understand that you say concepts are non-existent. It makes sense > to me that concepts are formed by mind. However, I find it puzzling > to say that concepts are non-existent. > > Your feedback is appreciated. > > Regards, > Victor >------ Dear Victor, Yes, I think it is difficult when we try to think our way to this profound matter. It really can only be seen by learning to study the present moment so that the difference bwteen concept and reality can be directly known. Jon said last week that "I think a problem can arise for some from the fact that concept is said to be the 'object' of the consciousness that thinks. Perhaps we think of sense-door consciousness and its object which, as we know, is a rupa (i.e., a separate dhamma). But it seems to me that the moment of consciousness with concept as 'object' is different; the only thing 'existing' at such moment is the consciousness itself." Citta is so common but so amazing: `Bhikkhus, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?" "Yes lord." "Bhikkhus, that masterpiece of art is designed by citta. Indeed, Bhikkhus, citta is even more variegated than that masterpiece."" RobertK 21679 From: yasalalaka Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:04am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Sukin, I agree. People could be touchy,even reading between lines to read what has not been said. I have already had the experience.It is better we move off from the subject. I will do my own reading of the Abhidhamma. Thankyou, neverthless for the discussion on dhamma, you permitted me to have with you. May you be happy, With metta, Yasalalaka 21680 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: The Vinaya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Michael, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Newton > To: > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:44 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Vinaya > > > > Actually,James,it's not my interpretation.I'm > > just saying what I actually am directly reading in > > this sutta.I'm unclear, where The Buddha actually > > commands Vassakara to-wage war with the Vajjis as I > > am going over the text which I have a hard copy of. > > Seems nowhere to be found. > > Of course you are correct--the Buddha did not command or suggest that > Vassakara (or his boss, Ajatasattu, the king of Magadha, rather) attack the > Vajjis. Hi Mike (and Michael), I hate to belabor this point, but you seem to be missing the obvious in this sutta; and I don't believe that I have twisted the meaning of this sutta or used it as justification for war, as you are implying. Again, this matter is very complicated and simplifications aren't the solution. As you quote from the sutta, "Vassakara: "No harm, indeed, can be done to the Vajjis in battle by Magadha's king, Ajatasattu, except through treachery or discord. Well, then, Venerable Gotama, we will take our leave, for we have much to perform, much work to do." Now, why are you assuming, from reading this, that Vassakara is going to go back to his king and tell him not to wage war? That is not what he has said at all. He has said that first the king is going to have to commit sabotage against the Vajjis with treachery and discord (with traitors and spies and propaganda I would assume…like every other nation does), and then they will be able to wage and win a war… that is why they `have much work to do'. Vassakara wouldn't say "we have much to perform, much work to do" if he was just going to go back to his King and tell him to forget it; there isn't any performance necessary or work in doing that. To continue, with full knowledge of what Vassakara and his King have planned, the Lord Buddha tells Vassakara to do as he sees fit. He doesn't start preaching to him about anti-war. I have never said that the Buddha was pro-war; what I have stated is that he wasn't anti-war. As a side line, which I don't intend/want to become a subject of discussion in this group, I happened to be in favor of the war in Iraq, right from the beginning. It wasn't because I am in favor of war but because I believed that the circumstances justified it in that case. And now that the war is over, facts are coming about to demonstrate that my position wasn't far-fetched. These are complicated times which require complicated actions/positions. The world isn't Buddhist and there is not reason to assume it should be. Metta, James 21681 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:50am Subject: Kom Dear Kom, Thanks for your letter and sorry for replying your letter so late, it is because I have to study my common test and I do not have enough time to reply. The SARS is very serious in the world, classes were stopped since 29/3 and were being resume on tuesday, since I am Secondary three student, I had to go for school on that day, I think that it is not fair to us because Form 1 and 2 do not need to resume class. What do you think of this new disease, SARS? My elder brother, Alton, went to Japan on Monday, my family is very worried about him, since he had to go by airplane......and I miss him so much, he went there for work and do not know when will he back......Can you help me on this problem in a Buddhist point of view? Kimmy 21682 From: Star Kid Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:52am Subject: a reply Dear James Long time I haven't sent any letters to you. How are you? Are you bored? I'm very bored at home with no school for alot of weeks. Have you got alot of homework? I have some homework to do. Do you still go out? When is the Budda's birthday? When did he died? How old is he when he died? Please write back to me. Janet 21683 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 7:18am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Robert K, Thanks for your reply. I would not want to sound critical. However, I would say that I find what you say regarding concept contradictory: on one hand, concepts are formed by citta; on the other hand, concepts are non- existent. This is how I see it: Concepts are formed by citta, or in Jon's words, they are assembled by mind. Whatever is formed/assembled, disintegrates, does not last, subject to change, passes away. In that sense, a concept is impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is impermanent, subject to change is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing thus, one grows dispassionate towards concept. Again, thanks for your reply, and your feedback is appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Robert K, > > > > Thanks for your reply! > > > > I understand that you say citta forms up concepts. I also > > understand that you say concepts are non-existent. It makes sense > > to me that concepts are formed by mind. However, I find it > puzzling > > to say that concepts are non-existent. > > > > Your feedback is appreciated. > > > > Regards, > > Victor > >------ > Dear Victor, > Yes, > I think it is difficult when we try to think our way to this > profound matter. It really can only be seen by learning to study the > present moment so that the difference bwteen concept and reality can > be directly known. > > Jon said last week that "I think a problem can arise for some from > the fact that concept is > said to be the 'object' of the consciousness that thinks. Perhaps we > think of sense-door consciousness and its object which, as we know, > is a rupa (i.e., a separate dhamma). But it seems to me that the > moment of consciousness with concept as 'object' is different; the > only thing 'existing' at such moment is the consciousness itself." > > Citta is so common but so amazing: > `Bhikkhus, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?" "Yes > lord." "Bhikkhus, that masterpiece of art is designed by citta. > Indeed, Bhikkhus, citta is even more variegated than that > masterpiece."" > RobertK 21684 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, Sukin (and Yasalalaka) - In a message dated 4/26/03 11:19:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sukin@k... writes: > > But, jhana is one form of formal meditation and it is the only one > which was encouraged by the Buddha. I don't think there was any > other; I think `vipassana meditation' is a modern invention of the > practice of satipatthana. Vipassana is the development of insight > based on this practice which has nothing to do with formal sitting. > > When Buddha talked about going to the wilderness etc I understand > that he was mostly referring to Jhana. And if he did direct the > monks attention to the arising and falling of realities, it was not > because he thought that jhana *lead* to vipassana. But that jhana > being the normal everyday activity of the monks in those times, they > could then look closer at what they were doing and actually come to > understand the meaning in ultimate terms of that. And yes, jhana is > highly refined states, so I assume that if those monks could give up > attachment to them, their understanding would be even deeper (but I > am not sure about this). > ============================= An examination of both the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati Sutta will show that each of them includes formal sitting meditation, though not exclusively that. It seems to me that you are using the following reasoning [Please see the end of this post]: Premiss: There was no meditation practice taught by the Buddha except jhana bhavana. Premiss: People aren't "up to" jhana cultivation these days. [Implied elsewhere in your post] Conclusion: There is no reason to meditate these days. In my opinion, each of your premisses is false, and so is the conclusion. With metta, Howard P.S. The gist of anapanasati practice is given at the very start of the Anapanasati Sutta, as follows: (Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing)"Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath), and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. "[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication (feeling & perception), and to breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication. [8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental fabrication, and to breathe out calming mental fabrication. "[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind. "[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment. Likewise, near the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta, you will find the following: (A. Body)"And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21685 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:41am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 1. Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 1. The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of determination, aditthåna, as follows: Determination has the characteristic of determining upon the requisites of enlightenment [1] ; its function is to overcome their opposites; its manifestation is unshakeableness in that task; the requisites of enlightenment are its proximate cause. The perfection of determination, aditthåna pårami, is the firm determination to realize the four noble Truths, even though one has to go a long way and it will take an endlessly long time to reach the goal. However, if one develops the Path with firm determination one will eventually reach the goal. Determination in this life means determination to develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize the four noble Truths. We should not deviate from this goal by aiming for the pleasant objects of gain, honour, praise and wellbeing, or visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. In that case we accumulate clinging instead of giving up and abandoning. The perfection of determination will lead to detachment from desire for sense objects. If we are infatuated with the sense objects, if we are deluded by them and cling to them, we shall wish to have them again and again and we shall never be satisfied. Then we shall not be inclined to develop the perfections in order to eradicate defilements. Many different types of citta arise and fall away: kusala cittas arise and shortly afterwards akusala cittas arise. Sometimes we have determination for kusala citta but when akusala citta arises and induces us to give in to akusala, we readily give up kusala and we pursue akusala. This shows that we need firm determination for the eradication of defilements. If we want to realize the four noble Truths we should see the benefit of being unshakeable in the development of kusala dhammas and the abandonment of defilements. If we lack the perfection of determination kusala dhammas cannot develop. Now I wish to speak about the life of the Bodhisatta during which he developed the highest degree of the perfection of determination, the paramatthapåramí (ultimate perfection) of aditthåna [2]. Footnotes 1. These are the ten perfections. Determining upon the requisites of enlightenment means, having the firm determination to develop the ten perfections. 2. The ten perfections can also be classified as thirty påramís: ten basic påramís, ten intermediate påramís and ten ultimate påramís (paramatthapåramís). 21686 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:41am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10. ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:54:21 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10. Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, no 10. Relevant sutta passage: (ka.n.nacchidda.m naasacchidda.m mukhadvaara.m), yena ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m ajjhoharati, yattha ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m santi.t.thati, yena ca asitapiitakhaayitasaayita.m adhobhaaga.m nikkhamati.. and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten passes out of the body lower down. Commentary: yena caati yena chiddena. As to the words ³and that by which² , this means: by which cavity. ajjhoharatiiti anto paveseti, As to the words, ³he swallows², this means, he makes it go inside. jivhaabandhanato hi yaava udarapa.talaa manussaana.m vidatthicatura"ngula.m chidda.t.thaana.m hoti. From the base of the tongue as far as the mucous membrane of the intestines of humans there is a hollow tract of one cube and four fingers length. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. yattha caati yasmi.m okaase. As to the words, ³And where², this means: at whichever occasion. santi.t.thatiiti pati.t.thaati. As to the expression, it remains, this means: it is established. manussaana~nhi mahanta.m pa.taparissaavanamatta~nca udarapa.tala.m naama hoti. Here the intestines have been referred to which are like a large filter for humans. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. adhobhaaga.m nikkhamatiiti yena he.t.thaa nikkhamati. As to the words , it comes out at the lower part, this means: where it comes out underneath. dvatti.msahatthamatta.m ekaviisatiyaa .thaanesu va"nka.m anta.m naama hoti. Here, the intestines have been referred to that are thirtytwo cubits (a cubit being half a yard) in length and coiled in twentyone places. ta.m sandhaayeta.m vutta.m. Now, this is said in this connection. ya.m vaa pana~n~nampiiti As to the words, or whatever else, iminaa sukhumasukhuma.m cammama.msaadiantaragata~nceva lomakuupabhaavena ca .thita.m aakaasa.m dasseti. this means: here he explains the cavity between the very fine inner skin and flesh and so on, which are porous and are fastened by ligaments. sesametthaapi pathaviidhaatuaadiisu vuttanayeneva veditabba.m. Here, what is left should be understood as what is said with reference to the element of earth and so on. ***** Note: see also Visuddhimagga VIII, 118-120, for the intestines, etc. Nina. 21687 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -Milinda's Questions, discussion as scholars Dear Rob M, As to the date of the Milinda, as I read in Part One, tr by Rhys Davids, this book was written about 200 A.D. What do you think? It is based on an older work probably. And King Menander was as early as you said. I like this one about discussion as scholars: Nina. op 26-04-2003 10:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > "The Questions of King Milinda" was written in the first century BC. > The book takes the form of questions from a philosopher king, King > Milinda, to a Buddhist monk, Nâgasena. King Milinda was based on > King Menander, a famous historical figure. King Menander was a Greek > who ruled Bactria (present day Afghanistan) between 150 - 110 BC, > about 200 years after Alexander the Great conquered the area. 21688 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:41am Subject: Dhamma Issues 6. no 1 Chapter 6. The Parinnibbåna of the Arahat who is a Layman Introduction [1]. This was one of the subjects of discussion between King Milinda and the arahat Någasena, as discribed in the ³Questions of King Milinda². This book dates from around the second century A.D. King Milinda is said to be the Greek King Menander of Bactria. This book consists of points of the Buddha¹s teachings treated in the form of conversations between King Milinda and Någasena the Elder. We find references time and again to all three parts of the Tipitaka: the Vinaya, the Sutta and the seven Books of the Abhidhamma. Buddhaghosa (about 430 A.D.) referred to the ³Questions of King Milinda². This issue deals with the parinibbåna of the arahat who is a layman. There are two kinds of parinibbåna: the full extinction of defilements (kilesa parinibbåna) and the full extinction of the khandhas (khanda parinibbåna). In this issue, parinibbåna stands for the full extinction of the khandhas, the final passing away of the arahat. He will not be reborn. Issue of Analysis : will a layman who attains the excellent quality of arahatship but who does not become a monk attain parinibbåna on that day, or within seven days? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue : A layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk will attain parinibbåna on that very day. The source which supports the conclusion of the analysis : ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2: If a Householder attains Arahatship. The source that explains the reasons for this conclusion : ³Milinda¹s Questions², Seventh Division, no 2, explains clearly that a layman who attains arahatship but who does not become a monk must attain parinibbåna on that very day. The text states: ³Revered Någasena, you say: ŒThere are two bourns [2], not another, for a householder who has attained arahantship: either, that very day he goes forth (into homelessness) or he attains final nibbåna. That day is not able to pass (without one or other of these events taking place). If revered Någasena, he obtain neither a teacher nor a preceptor nor a bowl and robe on that day, could that arahant go forth of himself, or could he let the day pass? Or if some other arahant of psychic power arrived could he let him go forth? Or would he attain final nibbåna?² ³An arahant, sire, cannot go forth of oneself. On going forth of oneself one falls into theft [3] . Nor could he let the day pass. Whether another arahant arrived or not, he would attain final nibbåna that very day.² Footnotes: 1. I have written the Introduction. 2. Bourne is the translation of the Pali: gati, which can mean destiny, course, behaviour. Here it could mean: course. 3. This refers to living in communion as it were by theft, being unworthy of it, since he did not follow what was prescribed. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² I, 125, that there are for the monk four kinds of use of the requisites: use as a theft, use as a debt, use as an inheritance and use as a master. We read: ³Herein, use by one who is unvirtuous and makes use (of the requisites), even sitting in the midst of the community, is called Œuse as a theft¹.² Use without reviewing them with mindfulnbess is use as a debt. Use by ariyans who are not arahats is use as inheritance and use by arahats is use as a master. Nina. 21689 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Howard, I was going to reply to another post, but since you write to me after such a long time, I have to respond to your post first.:-) > ============================= > An examination of both the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati > Sutta will show that each of them includes formal sitting meditation, though > not exclusively that. It seems to me that you are using the following > reasoning [Please see the end of this post]: > > Premiss: There was no meditation practice taught by the Buddha except > jhana > bhavana. > Premiss: People aren't "up to" jhana cultivation these days. [Implied > elsewhere > in your post] > Conclusion: There is no reason to meditate these days. > > In my opinion, each of your premisses is false, and so is the > conclusion. I have to admit that I had forgotten about Anapanasati, or else I would have been more cautious in making my remark. But that would be because I don’t know where to put it, is it related to jhana or not, but I think it originated from the Buddha himself and not something which existed before him. Anyway, firstly when I made my comment on jhana, I was not focusing on the fact whether it was appropriate for people to practice in this day and age or not. I was even thinking about those with the accumulations from previous lives but was living in crowded cities like New York ;-), that they must be having a tough time since the environment was not appropriate. And I was even thinking about some remote Wats, perhaps in Myanmar or Laos, where there might be monks with the proper accumulations and the right environment who are practicing it. I am not interested in making a statistical report of when, where and how many jhana practitioners there are any more than would I like to find out if there are any sakadagamis and anagamis alive today. I might have been if I myself was considering taking up the practice. My main intention to state these things is for the person whom I address to, to consider their own position. But yes, as far as so called ‘Vipassana Meditation’ is concerned, I do have problems with. But not to discuss now. As far as jhana is concerned, what I have heard from third-hand source and which makes sense to me, is that a very high degree of panna is required to know what the appropriate object of meditation is suitable for oneself. This will have to depend on ones accumulations. Also once when during meditation, kusala and akusala states arise, one must be very proficient in distinguishing between the two. This requires very high degree of panna again. The mind must be also so sharp as to be able to maintain the object and be able to detect any falling back to lower states. The main point is that one must have real panna to see the danger in sense impressions. And this will have to be both one’s own accumulated tendency as well as having enough clear comprehension to know one’s position in relation to the surroundings. When I first heard about this, my impression was that even those people, his teachers etc, during the Buddha’s time, had very high level of panna compared to whom, later famous religious teachers were nothing. They at least came to discover how to achieve such refined states of kusala, enough to condition rebirth as bhramas. So my impression is that even this is no joke. Regarding Anapanasati, I have heard it here and probably so have you, that breath as a meditation object is extremely refined, that this object was appropriate only for the ‘super’ wise. It is that special ‘rupa’ which is conditioned by citta. From my own experience I can see how much proliferation goes on when trying to be aware of the breath and I do not mean here any background noise. What I mean is some times it is heat, some times it is wind, some times touch and all this is actually only thinking, heat, wind etc. It is not even the actual experience of these. And when I add long, short, medium to this, the mind gets even more agitated. My suspicion is that when finally there is some calm, it is not the calm because the true nature of breath has been discerned, but in a way one has come to a compromising position of “thinkingâ€? heat or touch at the tip of nose or upper lip. The constancy seems to be maintained, but this would have been the ‘concept’ of breath chosen according to one’s desire. This is only my experience though, and admittedly I am only speculating from my present position. Hope you don’t mind it. Look forward to your response. Metta, Sukin. 21690 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 1:28pm Subject: Re: The Vinaya Hello James,(Mike, Ray, Michael) and All, James, I gave a number of sutta references in this post that clearly show the Buddha's Teachings to be against violence, war and killing. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21505 You have quoted a sentence in one sutta to support your view that the Buddha was not anti-war. No-one else who has so far posted, garners the same meaning from that sentence. I may be wrong (and correct me please) but you seem to consider that the Buddha saw war as 'a skilful means', or, at least, that it was a 'necessary' evil. Either way, I would appreciate if you could point me to some of the suttas that would support your view. Santikaro Bhikkhu on behalf of BPF's Dharma Council , March 2003, wrote Excerpt: "War happens. Buddhism does not deny such facts. It tries to understand how war happens. But Buddhism never accepts or legitimizes war as necessary or "just." " "Kings, rulers, ministers, and governments often fall back on war as a crude means to their ends. This reflects a lack of intelligence, creativity, and courage in solving problems. The ends, even when decent and just, never justify the violence of war." "Scriptures show the Buddha … Intervening between two sides to prevent bloodshed, then reconciling them (Rohini River). Arguing to to a king that a planned invasion will fail and not achieve the king's goals (Ajatasatru's invasion of the Vajjian Confederacy). Recommending non-violent policies as a wiser solution than war (Kutadanta Sutta). Analyzing the sources of conflict and showing how to remove or transform the causes (numerous cases)." "War happens. It is never desirable or beneficial. Too many innocents die, property is wasted, hatreds and feuds are prolonged, and we accustom ourselves to beastly behavior. There is no place in the Buddhist concept of "nobility" for war. It is never morally legit. It isn't even a "necessary evil." It is merely the bad policy of shortsighted, cowardly, selfish, and ill-informed leadership."" http://www.liberationpark.org/bpf/jw_oxy.htm metta, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 21691 From: Vicki Berman Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:20pm Subject: New Member Intro Greetings to you all, I would like to introduce myself, my name is Vicki and will start by telling you a wee bit about myself. Currently I work at a hospital writing computer programs to analyze the information about patients. I must be doing something right because we won an award from a national medical group for one of my reports. I also got an outstanding staff award for it. I am a middle aged divorced mother of two teenagers, two dogs, and two cats. I weave and spin when I have time. I am exploring Buddhism from many angles. I grew up learning about Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have a friend teaching me about Nishoren Buddhism. But on to my question. My father was born in China and has talked a lot about Buddhism while I grew up. He recently had some heart trouble, and my sister made a comment that "he wasn't being spiritual enough about his own death." The rest of us thought it was okay for him to work on life style changes to help save his life, but this sister had other ideas about death. Evidently she was "spiritual" about it because she killed herself in February. She had a beautiful ying-yang pendant around her neck when she died, and her note said that she would see us on the other side. My family was shocked at this unexpected tragedy and we are learning to live with our new reality. (It is suffering as I never knew suffering existed, we were very attached to her). So my question is this: What did the Buddha teach about suicide? I've heard stories of elderly Zen monks passing on, in a state of total awareness, at a time of their choice, but they were at the end of their lives anyway, not a healthy, but depressed, person in the middle of their lives. I thank all of you for taking the time to think about my question. Even if my sister hadn't died I would be eager to join your list, you all have such interesting things to say. Oh yes, I should mentioned that Mike Nease helped to get me started on this journey. Vicki 21692 From: m. nease Date: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts, compounds, and nonexistence Dear Nina, Sarah sent this quotation from an earlier post to Kom recently. I flagged it and was just rereading it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 4:14 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] concepts, compounds, and nonexistence > Nina: > Seeing just sees, it directly experiences visible object impinging > on the eye-base. It does not need vitakka and vicara to experience the > object. Understood. > The other cittas of the sense-door process do not have the eyebase > as the physical base, vatthu, they do not see, they need vitakka and > vicara in order to experience visible object. I don't understand this. When you say, "other cittas of the sense-door process", are you referring to vi~n~naa.nas other than seeing-consciousness? Why would they 'need...to experience visible object'? I think I've missed something--not doing my homework, as usual... Thanks in advance, Ma'am, mike 21693 From: robmoult Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -Milinda's Questions, discussion as scholars Hi Nina, I have "The Questions of King Milinda Part I / II" Tr by T.W. Rhys Davids, published as Volume 35 / 36 of "Sacred Books of the East", Edited by F. Max Muller. The introduction is by T. W. Rhys Davids, dated August 1889, starts, "The work of which a translation is here, for the first time, presented to the English reading public, has a strange and interesting history. Written in Northern India, at or a little after the beginning of the Christian era, and either in Sanskrit..." In "2500 Years of Buddhism", General Editor: Prof. P. V. Bapat (1956), page 207, "What can be said almost with certainty is that the Milinda-panha must have been written either at the time of Menander or after him, but surely before the time of Buddhaghosa, who has so often quoted Milinda-panha as an authority. That is to say, it must have been written between 150 BC and 400 AD." Since Buddhaghosa often quoted the Milinda-panha as an authority, it is unlikely that the "Milinda-panha" was a "recent publication" when Buddhaghosa wrote. For this reason, I would put the actual date in the earlier part of the range. In "The Debate of King Milinda", by Bhikkhu Pesala (2000), the Foreword by Ven. Dr. Hammalawa Saddhatissa, starts, "The Milinda Panha is a Pali book written in about the first century BC." This book gives a very intesting history of Menander in the Introduction. My speaker notes have over-stated the certainty of the date. I will update them to match Ven. Saddhatissa Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > As to the date of the Milinda, > as I read in Part One, tr by Rhys Davids, > this book was written about 200 A.D. What do you think? It is based on an > older work probably. And King Menander was as early as you said. > op 26-04-2003 10:19 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > "The Questions of King Milinda" was written in the first century BC. 21694 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Dear Robert, Mods & Kom, When I tried to look at 'Survey', I received the following error message: The requested file or directory is not found on the server. (Nice hearing from you, Kom--sorry I couldn't talk longer. Please email me back your phone number at mlnease@z...). Thanks, all, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:49 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup > Dear Group > Survey Of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (translated by > Nina)has just been sent to the printer. I also uploaded a file to > this group. It is 470 pages so will take up to 10 minutes to > download. > RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup > > group. > > > > File : /A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas- for printer april > 28.pdf > > Uploaded by : rjkjp1 > > Description : z-Survey of Paramattha Dhammas > > > > You can access this file at the URL > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/A%20Survey% > 20of%20Paramattha%20Dhammas-%20for%20printer%20april%2028.pdf > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit > > > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > > > Regards, > > > > rjkjp1 > 21695 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:27pm Subject: Way 81, Feeling cont. Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Feeling, continued After getting suitable weather conditions, a person of advantage to him spiritually, food that agrees with him, or fitting doctrinal instructions, the bhikkhu desirous of realization says, "Today, today," fixed in one posture, reaches the acme of insight and stands fast in the fruit of arahantship. For the three kinds of persons aforesaid the subject of meditation up to arahantship is expounded, in this way. Here, however, the Blessed One speaking of the non-material or mental subject of meditation speaks by way of feeling. While expounding by way of sense-impression or consciousness the subject of meditation does not become clear. It seems dark. But by way of feeling it becomes clear. Why? Because of the clearness of the arising of feeling. Indeed the arising of pleasant or painful feeling is clear. When pleasant feeling arises spreading through and flowing over the whole body, making one to utter the words: "Ah 'tis joy," it is like causing one to eat fresh clarified butter cooled in very cold water a hundred times after being melted again and again, also a hundred times; it is like causing one to be massaged with an emollient oil worth a hundred pieces; and it is like causing one to be cooled of a burning fever with a thousand pots of cold water. When painful feeling arises spreading through and flowing over the whole body making one to bewail with the words, "Alas, what woe," it is like the applying on one of a heated plowshare; it is like the sprinkling upon one of molten copper; and it is comparable to the hurling into dried grass and trees, in the forest, of bundles of wood firebrands. Thus the arising of pleasant or painful feeling becomes clear, but the arising of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is dark, and unclear. The neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling becomes clear to one who grasps it methodically, thinking: "At the disappearance of pleasure and pain, the neutral neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling occurs, which is contrary to the pleasant and the unpleasant." To what is it comparable? To a deer hunter following the hoof marks of a deer which midway having gone up a flat rock is fleeing. The hunter after seeing the hoof marks on the hither and thither side of the rock, without seeing any trace in the middle, knows by inference: "Here the animal went up, and here, it went down; in the middle, on the flat rock, possibly it went through this part." Like the hoofmark at the place of going up the arising of pleasurable feeling becomes clear. Like the hoofmark at the place of descent the arising of painful feeling becomes clear. Like the grasping through inference of the part traversed over the rock by the deer is the laying hold of the neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling methodically with the thought: "At the disappearance of pleasure and pain, the neutral neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling occurs, which is contrary to the pleasant and the unpleasant." In this manner, the Blessed One having expounded at first the form subject of meditation, later, pointed out the formless subject of meditation, by way of feeling, having taken it out from the fivefold aggregation distinguishingly. Not only here did he point it out thus. In the Cula Tanhasankkhaya, the Cula Vedalla, the Maha Vedalla, the Ratthapala, Magandiya, Dhatuvibhanga, and Aneñjasappaya of the Majjhima Nikaya; in the Maha Nidana, Sakkapañha, and Maha Satipatthana of the Digha Nikaya; in the Cula Nidana, Rukkhupama, and Parivimamsana Suttas of the Samyutta Nikaya; in the whole of the Vedana Samyutta of the same Nikaya; and in many other discourses did the Master point out the formless subject of meditation, by way of feeling, having taken out feeling from the fivefold aggregation, after first expounding the form subject of meditation. 21696 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Intro Brava, Vic, Really great to hear from you on-list--this is an exellent beginning, I think. The Buddha didn't talk much about suicide and I'll leave that to others to address. More pertinent are the presently arising dhammas (phenomena, especially mental in this case) that lead into and out of happiness/unhappiness, understanding/misunderstanding etc. These were and always are present for each and all of us and can be known and understood. Looking forward to responses from our smarter members. Best Wishes, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Vicki Berman To: DSG Post Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:20 PM Subject: [dsg] New Member Intro > Greetings to you all, > I would like to introduce myself, my name is Vicki and will start by telling you a wee bit about myself. Currently I work at a hospital writing computer programs to analyze the information about patients. I must be doing something right because we won an award from a national medical group for one of my reports. I also got an outstanding staff award for it. I am a middle aged divorced mother of two teenagers, two dogs, and two cats. I weave and spin when I have time. I am exploring Buddhism from many angles. I grew up learning about Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have a friend teaching me about Nishoren Buddhism. But on to my question. > My father was born in China and has talked a lot about Buddhism while I grew up. He recently had some heart trouble, and my sister made a comment that "he wasn't being spiritual enough about his own death." The rest of us thought it was okay for him to work on life style changes to help save his life, but this sister had other ideas about death. Evidently she was "spiritual" about it because she killed herself in February. She had a beautiful ying-yang pendant around her neck when she died, and her note said that she would see us on the other side. > My family was shocked at this unexpected tragedy and we are learning to live with our new reality. (It is suffering as I never knew suffering existed, we were very attached to her). > So my question is this: What did the Buddha teach about suicide? I've heard stories of elderly Zen monks passing on, in a state of total awareness, at a time of their choice, but they were at the end of their lives anyway, not a healthy, but depressed, person in the middle of their lives. > I thank all of you for taking the time to think about my question. Even if my sister hadn't died I would be eager to join your list, you all have such interesting things to say. > Oh yes, I should mentioned that Mike Nease helped to get me started on this journey. > Vicki > > > 21697 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Sukin: In a message dated 4/26/03 8:19:05 PM, sukin@k... writes: << Jhana practice is a very high form of kusala, above dana and sila. People during Buddha's time and sometime later had the accumulations for such a practice. The requisite is not only the practitioner's own panna, but also the outer environment must be conducive. The monk's life inside the temple premise can be appropriate outer conditions, so I wouldn't say that a monk should not practice jhana. But only he can tell if indeed the outer and the inner conditions are right. But as a whole, yes I do believe that meditation (but not to neglect study) has been the way of life of monks through the ages. And this is part of the tradition of which I feel much gratitude towards. But, jhana is one form of formal meditation and it is the only one which was encouraged by the Buddha. I don't think there was any other; I think `vipassana meditation' is a modern invention of the practice of satipatthana. Vipassana is the development of insight based on this practice which has nothing to do with formal sitting. >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Well, I don't think anyone here would be surprised if I said I felt our good friend Sukin was pretty much right on. I completely concur with his assessment that, "`vipassana meditation' is a modern invention of the practice of satipatthana. Vipassana is the development of insight based on this practice which has nothing to do with formal sitting." It seems to me that people often conflate the practice of Vipassana, body scanning, with vipassana (insight), the subjective condition that the practice is intended to elicit in the practitioner. And yes, it does seem clear to me that jhana was the "practice" intended by the historic Buddha that leads to insight and absorption. And, it does seem like an odd reflection of the, perhaps, decay of the Dhamma when jhana is looked on as something that is evil or at least something to be avoided or bypassed. But, I think the belief alone that we live at some time that is too decayed to even acquire enlightenment, or proper understanding, alone is evidence of the decay. If you will recall, the historic Buddha often said that his time was a time of tremendous decay. The point that I am trying to make is enlightenment is a natural innate ability that we all have, and there has never been a time during the age of humans when Buddhas have not been on this Earth. We need only accept that everyone, no matter how degraded, can become enlightened in this lifetime, and there isn't just one great Buddha out there, but there are many living Buddhas who can guide use to enlightenment. But, when we get all obsessed with a dead Buddha who lived 2,000 or 2,500 years ago, we lose sight of the Buddhas who are right here, right now available to guide us to enlightenment. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: When Buddha talked about going to the wilderness etc I understand that he was mostly referring to Jhana. And if he did direct the monks attention to the arising and falling of realities, it was not because he thought that jhana *lead* to vipassana. But that jhana being the normal everyday activity of the monks in those times, they could then look closer at what they were doing and actually come to understand the meaning in ultimate terms of that. And yes, jhana is highly refined states, so I assume that if those monks could give up attachment to them, their understanding would be even deeper (but I am not sure about this). %%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Actually, I believe the concern or fear that jhana is something one can or could become attached to is essentially erroneous, because it is clearly stated in the Potthapada Sutta DN. 9-17 "a true but subtle perception of delight and happiness, born of detachment." If jhana is born from detachment, then how can one become attached to it? Those who say that one can become attached to jhana, are themselves deluded and should be ignored because they are most clearly the "blind leading the blind." No offense Sukin, I just think you are giving voice to a common misconception. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: You mentioned Sila, Samadhi and Panna. Most people believe that they are separate from each other, that one must first have the foundation of Sila, then Samadhi and only then can Panna be developed. But from what I understanding, none of these can be separated. One cannot practice sila without `understanding' and there cannot be perfect Samadhi without the other two. Besides, at the moment of attention to a reality, satipatthana, at that moment, sila, samadhi and panna are all operating. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Here my good friend Sukin, I completely agree with you. While sila (ethical conduct) is of course essential, sila cannot be perfect until panna (wisdom) arises, so to say one has to have perfect ethical conduct before wisdom will arise, are completely missing the understanding that it is only through wisdom and insight and equanimity that one could ever lead a truly ethical life. Good work Sukin. Best regards to all, layman Jeff 21698 From: m. nease Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Again Sukin, Off-list again, for the same reasons. Thought you might note the conditions of those whom the Buddha taught anapanasati--highly refined, to say the least (and only after four months of continuous instruction by arahants): I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, together with many well-known elder disciples -- with Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions. Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the Pavarana ceremony -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, I am content with this practice. I am content at heart with this practice. So arouse even more intense persistence for the attaining of the as-yet-unattained, the reaching of the as-yet-unreached, the realization of the as-yet-unrealized. I will remain right here at Savatthi [for another month] through the 'White water-lily' month, the fourth month of the rains." The monks in the countryside heard, "The Blessed One, they say, will remain right there at Savatthi through the White water-lily month, the fourth month of the rains." So they left for Savatthi to see the Blessed One. Then the elder monks taught & instructed even more intensely. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions. Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the full-moon night of the White water-lily month, the fourth month of the rains -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he addressed them: "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly to which a small gift, when given, becomes great, and a great gift greater: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly -- the sort of assembly that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along provisions, in order to see. "In this community of monks there are monks who are Arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of the first set of five fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who -- on returning only one more time to this world -- will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors of awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Just thought you might find this useful for further discussion. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Howard, I was going to reply to another post, but since you write to me after such a long time, I have to respond to your post first.:-) > ============================= > An examination of both the Satipatthana Sutta and the Anapanasati > Sutta will show that each of them includes formal sitting meditation, though > not exclusively that. It seems to me that you are using the following > reasoning [Please see the end of this post]: > > Premiss: There was no meditation practice taught by the Buddha except > jhana > bhavana. > Premiss: People aren't "up to" jhana cultivation these days. [Implied > elsewhere > in your post] > Conclusion: There is no reason to meditate these days. > > In my opinion, each of your premisses is false, and so is the > conclusion. I have to admit that I had forgotten about Anapanasati, or else I would have been more cautious in making my remark. But that would be because I donâ?Tt know where to put it, is it related to jhana or not, but I think it originated from the Buddha himself and not something which existed before him. Anyway, firstly when I made my comment on jhana, I was not focusing on the fact whether it was appropriate for people to practice in this day and age or not. I was even thinking about those with the accumulations from previous lives but was living in crowded cities like New York ;-), that they must be having a tough time since the environment was not appropriate. And I was even thinking about some remote Wats, perhaps in Myanmar or Laos, where there might be monks with the proper accumulations and the right environment who are practicing it. I am not interested in making a statistical report of when, where and how many jhana practitioners there are any more than would I like to find out if there are any sakadagamis and anagamis alive today. I might have been if I myself was considering taking up the practice. My main intention to state these things is for the person whom I address to, to consider their own position. But yes, as far as so called â?~Vipassana Meditationâ?T is concerned, I do have problems with. But not to discuss now. As far as jhana is concerned, what I have heard from third-hand source and which makes sense to me, is that a very high degree of panna is required to know what the appropriate object of meditation is suitable for oneself. This will have to depend on ones accumulations. Also once when during meditation, kusala and akusala states arise, one must be very proficient in distinguishing between the two. This requires very high degree of panna again. The mind must be also so sharp as to be able to maintain the object and be able to detect any falling back to lower states. The main point is that one must have real panna to see the danger in sense impressions. And this will have to be both oneâ?Ts own accumulated tendency as well as having enough clear comprehension to know oneâ?Ts position in relation to the surroundings. When I first heard about this, my impression was that even those people, his teachers etc, during the Buddhaâ?Ts time, had very high level of panna compared to whom, later famous religious teachers were nothing. They at least came to discover how to achieve such refined states of kusala, enough to condition rebirth as bhramas. So my impression is that even this is no joke. Regarding Anapanasati, I have heard it here and probably so have you, that breath as a meditation object is extremely refined, that this object was appropriate only for the â?~superâ?T wise. It is that special â?~rupaâ?T which is conditioned by citta. From my own experience I can see how much proliferation goes on when trying to be aware of the breath and I do not mean here any background noise. What I mean is some times it is heat, some times it is wind, some times touch and all this is actually only thinking, heat, wind etc. It is not even the actual experience of these. And when I add long, short, medium to this, the mind gets even more agitated. My suspicion is that when finally there is some calm, it is not the calm because the true nature of breath has been discerned, but in a way one has come to a compromising position of â?othinkingâ?? heat or touch at the tip of nose or upper lip. The constancy seems to be maintained, but this would have been the â?~conceptâ?T of breath chosen according to oneâ?Ts desire. This is only my experience though, and admittedly I am only speculating from my present position. Hope you donâ?Tt mind it. Look forward to your response. Metta, Sukin. 21699 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi, Sukin - I really have little to give by way of response to your post (copied below). It seems to me that I have a bit of a propensity towards the jhanas. It is little more than lack of dedication that prevents me from mastering them, I think. (Lacking dedication is a gentle way of saying that I'm lazy! ;-) I've had a bit of experience with the jhanas, experience confirmed by others far more adept in that direction. Actually, I think that meditation leading to the jhanas is probably possible for many people, and doesn't require all that much by way of special "accumulations". The thing is, it requires sticking with it and not giving up at early signs of difficulty. As far as whether the only meditation the Buddha taught was jhana meditation, well, I've already commented on that. I think that anapanasati includes formal meditation practice that is not exclusively "jhana meditatation", and the Buddha, himself, described anapanasati as a way of implementing vipassana bhavana, as a way of practicing the teachings given in the Satipatthana Sutta, With metta, Howard In a message dated 4/27/03 1:15:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sukin@k... writes: > > I have to admit that I had forgotten about Anapanasati, or else I > would have been more cautious in making my remark. But that would be > because I don’t know where to put it, is it related to jhana or not, > but I think it originated from the Buddha himself and not something > which existed before him. > > Anyway, firstly when I made my comment on jhana, I was not focusing > on the fact whether it was appropriate for people to practice in > this day and age or not. I was even thinking about those with the > accumulations from previous lives but was living in crowded cities > like New York ;-), that they must be having a tough time since the > environment was not appropriate. And I was even thinking about some > remote Wats, perhaps in Myanmar or Laos, where there might be monks > with the proper accumulations and the right environment who are > practicing it. I am not interested in making a statistical report > of when, where and how many jhana practitioners there are any more > than would I like to find out if there are any sakadagamis and > anagamis alive today. I might have been if I myself was considering > taking up the practice. My main intention to state these things is > for the person whom I address to, to consider their own position. > But yes, as far as so called ‘Vipassana Meditation’ is concerned, I > do have problems with. But not to discuss now. > > As far as jhana is concerned, what I have heard from third-hand > source and which makes sense to me, is that a very high degree of > panna is required to know what the appropriate object of meditation > is suitable for oneself. This will have to depend on ones > accumulations. Also once when during meditation, kusala and akusala > states arise, one must be very proficient in distinguishing between > the two. This requires very high degree of panna again. The mind > must be also so sharp as to be able to maintain the object and be > able to detect any falling back to lower states. The main point is > that one must have real panna to see the danger in sense > impressions. And this will have to be both one’s own accumulated > tendency as well as having enough clear comprehension to know one’s > position in relation to the surroundings. > When I first heard about this, my impression was that even those > people, his teachers etc, during the Buddha’s time, had very high > level of panna compared to whom, later famous religious teachers > were nothing. They at least came to discover how to achieve such > refined states of kusala, enough to condition rebirth as bhramas. > So my impression is that even this is no joke. > > Regarding Anapanasati, I have heard it here and probably so have > you, that breath as a meditation object is extremely refined, that > this object was appropriate only for the ‘super’ wise. It is that > special ‘rupa’ which is conditioned by citta. From my own experience > I can see how much proliferation goes on when trying to be aware of > the breath and I do not mean here any background noise. What I mean > is some times it is heat, some times it is wind, some times touch > and all this is actually only thinking, heat, wind etc. It is not > even the actual experience of these. And when I add long, short, > medium to this, the mind gets even more agitated. My suspicion is > that when finally there is some calm, it is not the calm because the > true nature of breath has been discerned, but in a way one has come > to a compromising position of “thinkingâ€Â? heat or touch at the tip of > nose or upper lip. The constancy seems to be maintained, but this > would have been the ‘concept’ of breath chosen according to one’s > desire. This is only my experience though, and admittedly I am only > speculating from my present position. Hope you don’t mind it. > > Look forward to your response. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21700 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Jeff, I agree there isn't any attachment in samma samadhi. In fact I think this might be what distinguishes jhana from other samadhis. Just from reading the descriptions it seems like jhana is progressive detachment. Where in other samadhis one might become more and more absorbed in the object (become one with it so to speak), in jhana it seems one has a more and more tenuous grasp of the object even though there is absorption. Perhaps this dynamic is what made it possible for jhana to be a vehicle to nibbana for the Buddha, i.e., it is basically letting-go . I agree with the local cognisenti here that right understanding is paramount but I don't see how one could acquire accumulations for jhana without attempting to cultivate it over and over. I guess everyone thinks they will attain enlightenment in this life and they don't need any accumulations for the future. Larry 21701 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 9:54pm Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > Thanks for your reply. > > I would not want to sound critical. However, I would say that I > find what you say regarding concept contradictory: on one hand, > concepts are formed by citta; on the other hand, concepts are non- > existent. > > This is how I see it: > Concepts are formed by citta, or in Jon's words, they are assembled > by mind. Whatever is formed/assembled, disintegrates, does not > last, subject to change, passes away. In that sense, a concept is > impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is impermanent, > subject to change is to be seen as it actually is with right > discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not > my self." Seeing thus, one grows dispassionate towards concept. > > Again, thanks for your reply, and your feedback is appreciated. > > Regards, > Victor > ----------- Dear Victor, I do see why this appears to be a contradiction - that a concept doesn't exist (is asabhava) and yet it can still be a object of citta. Let's take an example now. Think of a flying purple elephant. While thinking of this there is vedanakkhandha (the aggregate of feeling), there is sannakkhandha (the aggregate of perception, memory ) that 'remembers' the shape of an elephant and the color purple. There is sankharakkhanda (the formations that includes all other cetasikas) and there is vinnakkhandha (the aggregate of consciousness). These are all paramattha dhammas, they are conditioned and impermanent and not self. But there is no purple, flying elephant - that is pannati, concept, and yet it is the object at that time. It is dhammarammana. But it is the dhammarammana that is asabhava, non-existant. RobertK 21702 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Larry: In a message dated 4/27/03 5:05:32 PM, LBIDD@w... writes: << I agree there isn't any attachment in samma samadhi. In fact I think this might be what distinguishes jhana from other samadhis. Just from reading the descriptions it seems like jhana is progressive detachment. Where in other samadhis one might become more and more absorbed in the object (become one with it so to speak), in jhana it seems one has a more and more tenuous grasp of the object even though there is absorption. Perhaps this dynamic is what made it possible for jhana to be a vehicle to nibbana for the Buddha, i.e., it is basically letting-go >> %%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Since jhana is based on non-grasping it may be a vehicle for nibbana, excellent point, my good friend Larry, I hadn't thought of it in this way. Well put. Best to you, Layman Jeff 21703 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Southwest Insight E'letter Hi everyone, I publish a web based monthly journal dedicated to vipassana, jhana and nondualism called the Southwest Insight E'letter. The next issue will be dedicated to jhana, if anyone is interested in publishing their insights and opinions on jhana in the next issue, then please email me something by the deadline, April 30th. Subscription and back issues for the Southwest Insight E'letter are available at: Post message: SWI_E_letter@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: SWI_E_letter-subscribe@yahoogroups.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWI_E_letter/ If you live in this region I also publish a quarterly Southwestern Retreat and Resource Guide in Acrobat Reader format, which can be downloaded from the Albuquerque Vipassana Web site at: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~richards/sangha/home.html best to you all layman Jeff Brooks editor, Southwest Insight E'letter president, UofA Meditation Club 21704 From: Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death and Suicide To Vicki: In a message dated 4/27/03 2:20:34 PM, vberman@m... writes: << Greetings to you all, I would like to introduce myself, my name is Vicki and will start by telling you a wee bit about myself. Currently I work at a hospital writing computer programs to analyze the information about patients. I must be doing something right because we won an award from a national medical group for one of my reports. I also got an outstanding staff award for it. I am a middle aged divorced mother of two teenagers, two dogs, and two cats. I weave and spin when I have time. I am exploring Buddhism from many angles. I grew up learning about Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have a friend teaching me about Nishoren Buddhism. But on to my question. My father was born in China and has talked a lot about Buddhism while I grew up. He recently had some heart trouble, and my sister made a comment that "he wasn't being spiritual enough about his own death." The rest of us thought it was okay for him to work on life style changes to help save his life, but this sister had other ideas about death. Evidently she was "spiritual" about it because she killed herself in February. She had a beautiful ying-yang pendant around her neck when she died, and her note said that she would see us on the other side. My family was shocked at this unexpected tragedy and we are learning to live with our new reality. (It is suffering as I never knew suffering existed, we were very attached to her). So my question is this: What did the Buddha teach about suicide? I've heard stories of elderly Zen monks passing on, in a state of total awareness, at a time of their choice, but they were at the end of their lives anyway, not a healthy, but depressed, person in the middle of their lives. I thank all of you for taking the time to think about my question. Even if my sister hadn't died I would be eager to join your list, you all have such interesting things to say. Oh yes, I should mentioned that Mike Nease helped to get me started on this journey. Vicki >> %%%%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Welcome Vicki, and thank-you for your very honest introduction. I am sure the topic of suicide will be talked about extensively here, and it will no doubt bring up some strong feelings. I regret that I am not much of a scholar, so I cannot provide you with canonical references about death and suicide, which maybe just what you are looking for. I can only say that I have read a lot, reflected a great deal on what I have read, and found some small insight on these topics. So, I can only give you what little insight I have had into the subject of death. First, if I may point out, it sounded like your sister had some excess baggage (obviously) when she criticized your father's preparation for his parting. One should never criticize people for whatever they have to deal with, even someone who decides to kill one's self. Next in preparing for one's death, either self inflicted or otherwise, it is always best to transform that experience, like every experience in one's life, into a spiritual venture. In so doing we bring mindfulness and intention to our actions. Even more so to one's death. I have often pondered life, the spiritual journey and death, and thought that life and the spiritual journey, in many respects, are just preparation for one's death. If we lead a peaceful and contemplative life, then we are going to greet our death as a wonderful experience to be entered into. Death will be a doorway into the other side or the infinite for us. If we do not lead a contemplative life, then we are likely to be unhappy and critical of others and ourselves, and possibly end up harming or killing ourselves. Or, we will at least be unhappy to greet our death. As for the karmic consequences of your sister's suicide. She was an unhappy person. Her "karmic consequences" are she had an unhappy death. We need not project anymore consequences on her act that reflected extreme suffering. Now we may enter into a whole debate over karma with what I have to say next. Some people believe in a very material biblical sin-like retributional style of karma. I do not. To me karma is not a material thing at all. Karma is the consequences to your psyche for whatever unethical act one engages in. If we seek to harm others or ourselves, then there are psychological consequences for that kind of behavior, which is great unhappiness. On the other hand, if we live our lives so that we dedicate every moment and every thought, word, action and resource to the benefit of all beings, we are likely to lead very happy and fulfilled lives. I hope this short note has been of help to you. Best to you, layman Jeff 21705 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup --- Dear Mike, It downloads ok to my computer but takes 15mins. I just put the first 50 pages only on as part 1 . See if that is Ok. I suspect your computer is timing out. Thanks Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Robert, Mods & Kom, > > When I tried to look at 'Survey', I received the following error message: > > The requested file or directory is not found on the server. > > (Nice hearing from you, Kom--sorry I couldn't talk longer. Please email me > back your phone number at mlnease@z...). > > Thanks, all, > > mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rjkjp1 > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:49 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup > > > > Dear Group > > Survey Of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket (translated by > > Nina)has just been sent to the printer. I also uploaded a file to > > this group. It is 470 pages so will take up to 10 minutes to > > 21706 From: Sarah Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Intro Hi Vicki, Like Mike, I’m glad you’ve surfaced and introduced yourself to everyone. I know it must be a bit daunting or overwhelming for newcomers joining when it’s so busy and some threads have been going on for a long time. Pls feel very free to interrupt and ask for any clarifications. If Mike hasn’t already pointed it out to you, you may find it helpful to print out this simple Pali glossary to have next to your computer as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms All the posts from DSG are backed up on escribe (well, not quite all) and it has a useful search engine for topics and posts by any particular member: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ I just typed in ‘suicide’ and it showed 83 messages, so you’ll see the topic has been discussed quite a lot here from a Buddhist point of view. One rainy day you may wish to review these and raise anything from them of interest to you. It’s never to late to pick up a thread and most the posters are still around;-) I’m sure we all feel great sympathy for you and your family. Please know you’re not alone. At least two other members I know of here have lost siblings to suicide at a young age. (You’ll probably come across more details on that rainy day;-)). I believe it is far more prevalent in society than is ever reported (I’ve had contact myself with 3 cases not reported as such) and I still reflect sometimes on the suicide of a young client who was in my care in a psychiatric day centre. One knows that negative feelings, especially those of guilt or feeling one could have done better are so very useless, but it’s very natural that they should arise. In the suttas we read about all aspects of daily life and unfortunately, suicide is one of those aspects. Of course, the action must be motivated by very negative mental states, but all mental states change so rapidly, so we never know for sure whether someone actually passes away with skilful or unskilful consciousness. Indeed, we read cases in the texts of monks who took their lives, but just before passing away became enlightened due to the understanding which arose in those last few moments. So, for my part, I think it’s quite useless to speculate in ignorance about the possible future life of anyone or any series of consciousness. Instead, when our lives are so touched by these sad events, perhaps we can let them be a spur to helping ourselves and other family members to appreciate the value of this very short life for developing more understanding of what the real causes of suffering are and what is really of value in life. I’m so glad that you are finding the list of interest. You may wish to skip some of the more technical posts for now. Please let me know if you have any further questions. With metta, Sarah p.s thanks for your other info - I’m sure you’ll be hearing from Christine too as you have much in common. Actually we could do with your expertise in HK at the moment where the tracing and analyzing of SARS patients using the latest detective methodology is in full swing. ====== --- Vicki Berman wrote: > Greetings to you all, > I would like to introduce myself, my name is Vicki and will start by > telling you a wee bit about myself. Currently I work at a hospital > writing computer programs to analyze the information about patients. I > must be doing something right because we won an award from a national > medical group for one of my reports. 21707 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Larry and Jeff, > I agree there isn't any attachment in samma samadhi. In fact I think > this might be what distinguishes jhana from other samadhis. Just from > reading the descriptions it seems like jhana is progressive detachment. > Where in other samadhis one might become more and more absorbed in the > object (become one with it so to speak), in jhana it seems one has a > more and more tenuous grasp of the object even though there is > absorption. Perhaps this dynamic is what made it possible for jhana to > be a vehicle to nibbana for the Buddha, i.e., it is basically letting-go . I am not sure about this, whether samma samadhi of jhana is the result of progressive detachment of the same kind as that of vipassana. In the latter it is through knowing conditioned reality as they are, as not self. But it seems to me that jhana is very much still with the 'self' intact. However I do know that in jhana practitioners, the anusya is still there. And with change of conditions, such as rebirth under a different environment, the kilesas will manifest. Regarding whether if Buddha used jhana as a vehicle, again I have doubts. I do know that he did practice jhana in previous lives, so it is not unexpected that he was attracted to the practice in his last life as well. > I agree with the local cognisenti here that right understanding is > paramount but I don't see how one could acquire accumulations for jhana > without attempting to cultivate it over and over. I guess everyone > thinks they will attain enlightenment in this life and they don't need > any accumulations for the future. But what is more important, a practice aimed at a future result of which there is no promise of maintaining or understanding of a reality now? There can be noticeable degrees of detachment even at the most basic level, and this accumulates too. Besides, finally there is no other way than 'satipatthana' which can lead to enlightenment. So wouldn't it be far better to develop a habit of understanding reality wherever, whenever than to try to develop something which will ultimately require this same path to be proof of benefit? Between accumulations for satipatthana and jhana, what would you choose? Also the very thought about systematic development aimed at future result ie. the idea of *using* jhana to develop wisdom, seems like silabattaparamasa to me!? Btw, I think looking from outside, satipatthana seems like the more time consuming way, as it does not have a method and signposts to guide one's path. So I don't think that members of dsg think of getting it in just one lifetime. But maybe you were only kidding.:-) My first post to both of you, happy to have written it. :-) Best wishes, Sukin 21708 From: robmoult Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment What is Citta? Slide Contents ============== - Citta is pure awareness - Process of being aware of an object: Citta is an activity - That which is aware of an object: Citta is an agent - The means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object: Citta is an instrument Speaker Notes ============= Let's take a look at the first ultimate reality, citta or consciousness. We can define citta as an activity, the process of being aware of an object. The problem with this definition is the question, "If there is no self, what is it that is aware?" The answer is that it is the citta itself that is aware of an object. Citta is also like a container; it carries the various mental factors and allows them to access the object. 21709 From: Michael Newton Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 10:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death and Suicide Hello!Vicky; Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and feelings with this group.Yes,death,and suicide is a touchy subject-but it's nice that you have good contacts with people to help thru these difficulties. It's good that you work in a hospital-as it puts you in touch with many peoples suffering-shows you that you are not alone-and also you can help people in so so many ways-which helps you with your sadness.Buddhism stresses love and compassion.It's good that you are inquireing into the Buddhist Path.Just keep your heart and mind open-and listen to what many people have to say-but always look inside-find a quiet place there. There -you might find the truth there.Thank you so much for sharing your story.May you feel peaceful. Yours in the Dhamma with Metta,Michael Yours in the dhamma with metta,michael > In a message dated 4/27/03 2:20:34 PM, > vberman@m... writes: > > << Greetings to you all, ... > My father was born in China and has talked a lot > about Buddhism while I grew > up. He recently had some heart trouble, and my > sister made a comment that > "he wasn't being spiritual enough about his own > death." The rest of us > thought it was okay for him to work on life style > changes to help save his > life, but this sister had other ideas about death. > Evidently she was > "spiritual" about it because she killed herself in > February. She had a > beautiful ying-yang pendant around her neck when she > died, and her note said > that she would see us on the other side. > My family was shocked at this unexpected tragedy and > we are learning to live > with our new reality. (It is suffering as I never > knew suffering existed, we > were very attached to her). > So my question is this: What did the Buddha teach > about suicide? I've heard > stories of elderly Zen monks passing on, in a state > of total awareness, at a > time of their choice, but they were at the end of > their lives anyway, not a > healthy, but depressed, person in the middle of > their lives. > I thank all of you for taking the time to think > about my question. Even if > my sister hadn't died I would be eager to join your > list, you all have such > interesting things to say. > Oh yes, I should mentioned that Mike Nease helped to > get me started on this > journey. > Vicki >> 21710 From: Michael Newton Date: Sun Apr 27, 2003 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Intro Hello!Sarah; This must be a very difficult time for you,as you are right in the hub of this SARS epidemic.So far,here the epidemic han't reach California where I live-but guess it could-just a matter of time.Hear so much about Hong Kong(where you live).Are people there really stressed out and tense?Do you and your friends walk the streets with masks over your faces?What's it like there?Does it really bother you?There are problems in Canada which isn't too far away.Wonder if anything can be done.Hope you are O.K. YOURS IN THE DHAMMA WITH METTA,MICHAEL --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Vicki, ... > Sarah > p.s ... Actually we could do > with your expertise > in HK at the moment where the tracing and analyzing > of SARS patients using > the latest detective methodology is in full swing. > ====== 21711 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 0:44am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To All, I was reading the several posts on Jhana, Samatha, and Meditation. I was beginning to discuss some of these very same matters with, Sukin, and he showed a disinclination to continue the discussion with me and I thought I had stepped on to unknown ground in trying to discuss meditation, when the members of the forum are primarily here to discus Abhidhamma. However, having read the several post I have mentioned, and being a member of this group to learn Abhidhamma, I thought I will make my contribution on Meditation and allied matters. During the time the Prince Siddhartha was born in ancient India, there was 62 different schools of philosophy. The well known teachers of some of them were, Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Ghosala, Ajita Kesakambila, Pakuddha Kachchayana, Niganta Nataputta and Sanjay Belathaputta. They practiced samata ( quietude)meditation, using Kasina, which are the 40 different types of arammana to develop concentration . In samath, the mind is quietened first by attaining one pointed concentration( samadhi). Continuing to develop the concentration, with the eyes fixed on the Kasina, they attain jhana( dyana) absorptions. There are eight stages of jhana absorptions, four rupa jhana, ( first, second, third ,forth) and four arupa jhana. (fifth,sixth,seventh, and eighth). The first four jhana develop the mind and go into a deep "silence", very calm and serene, no thoughts arise in the mind. At the third and the fourth stages, mind is so deeply concentrated the meditator will not be aware of the body. Thereafter, the fifth to eight stages of absorptions give the meditator supernatural power. The Hindu teachers,and philosophers practiced these meditations even before the Prince Siddhartha was born. Prince Siddhartha, saw the four signs, and knew there was untold suffering , among beings and thought that there must be a cause for this, and that one may be able to stop it by eliminating the cause. He studied under some of the great teachers at the time, I had mentioned earlier. But he was disappointed . Ascetic Siddhartha, thought that it is through self-inflicted pain that he may be able to delve into the truth, and practiced austerity for six years, having failed in that endeavour, he left his five devoted companions, and went on his own. The rest of the story we know. Lord Buddha, practiced the samatha, meditation following the anapanasati,( taking the in and out breath) as the object of concentration(arammana). That was a means of clearing the mind of the incessantly arising and falling away of the thought processes. At the forth jhana absorption the mind is clear, serene, calm, and alert, but incapable of any other mental activity. Therefore the Buddha, after attaining the fourth jhana, came out of it and continued looking into the causes of suffering, looking at the mental activity in different ways, that was the insight meditation (vipassana), the unique method found by the Buddha himself. In vipassana, the Buddha tried to see the ` working', not just the understanding, of impermanence(anicca), unsatisfactoriness( dukkha ) and no-self (anatta). It is only through this insight or penetrating into the working of his own mind that the Buddha, `saw' dukkha, its cause, the way out of it and its cessation. He was able to differentiate between the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. A being is just five aggregates ( rupakkhandha, vedenakkhandha,sannanakkhandha, vinnanakkhandha and sankharakkhandha), and the cause of this suffering is rooted in lobha, dosa, moha, which has created in the mind of the being that he is a person, a "self", and every thing around is permanent, pleasant, and that they are for his enjoyment. The Buddha knew that once the beings become aware of the irreality of this thinking, they will turn to his teaching, which will enable them to go through the same experience he went through and attain nibbana. With metta, Yasalalaka 21712 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Intro Hi Michael, --- Michael Newton wrote: > Hello!Sarah; > This must be a very difficult time for you,as you > are right in the hub of this SARS epidemic. ..... Thx for your concern. The figures of new cases here have been reducing recently, so we’re all hoping we’re past the worst. Everyone, even the most relaxed, have had to make significant lifestyle changes, but we’ve all had to learn to just get on with life as well, although many of my friends and students are still hiding out overseas. Mostly we’ve been pretty relaxed. Until last week, I was only wearing a mask in lifts, but have avoided all indoor shopping centres, restaurants, meetings and so on. It’s not hard for me as I avoid the same places in normal times and I love to spend any free time outdoors in any weather or indoors at the computer/reading dhamma. Yesterday (Sunday) we went hiking to a beach and then had breakfast at an outdoor cafe. It was great to see kids playing on the beach. Teaching is now no fun at all as I have to stay masked (8hrs on Saturday) and it’s hot and uncomfortable. Supervising kids and checking they stay masked, wash hands frequently and so on takes some adjusting to as well. I still go to Tai chi and yoga classes as it’s important for me to get exercise and stay healthy. We all wash hands every time we’ve been in a lift or public place and shower as soon as we get home. People here have been really great, imho - no signs of panic. Everyone quietly doing their best, helping to clean the flats of the elderly, very supportive of the medical community. It’s particularly tough for those who have been put in quarantine (thousands of them) and those in hospital - no visitors etc. The 8 year old cousin of one of my students is in hospital for another condition and her parents haven’t been able to visit for weeks. Secondary schools have mostly (but not all) resumed. One suspected case and the school will close down again for two weeks. Many front-line medical staff have kept themselves in hospital accomodation and away from families to reduce the risk of home infection as many of the cases in the community have been traced to the medics. In terms of what can be done, I think that for any ‘situation’ or ‘scenario’ the greatest help is always the dhamma and the growth in understanding from what we read and consider as we’re doing here. None of us ever knows what will happen next to ourselves or our dear ones. The thinking and worrying about SARS or any other difficulties will never help us to become enlightened;-) SARS or wars are concepts too. Now, there are the same realities that the Buddha taught and urged us to understand as namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). Still there is attachment and aversion. I read all the information in the papers because I find it fascinating and easily become lost in the stories without any awareness. Occasionally, however, whilst reading, there may be a little awareness of the ‘real’ phenomena. Whilst we think in terms of a right or wrong course of action or stance to take, we’re bound to forget about different moments of consciousness, kusala and akusala and to take the whole scenario for being something real. This is why I don’t understand the Buddha to have told common people or leaders what actions to take. Instead I understand him to have pointed out realities, truths, causes and effects in terms of the khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, paccaya and so on. The teachings seem very subtle to me - not just a matter of taking X action being good and Y action being bad. We discussed this at some length on the ‘right livelihood’ thread and maybe it also applies to the ‘War’ and ‘Suicide’ threads too. (I was also reminded in your other discussion with James and co about the Meghiya chapter in the Udana. Meghiya was keen to spend time in seclusion in a serene mango grove. The Buddha knew it wouldn’t be a condition for insight and suggested he should wait. On Meghiya's urging, however, the Buddha says “How can we speak, Meghiya, when you speak of effort? You should do that for which you deem it now to be the time”. So Meghiya went to spend time in seclusion in the grove, was overwhelmed with unskilful thoughts of sense-desires, ill-will and cruelty and forced to return. In other words, not even the Buddha can ‘enlighten’ another. We all follow courses of action according to conditions and inclinations. Really understanding more about the subtle intricacies of the teachings will help us to develop wisdom, no matter our livelihood or way in which our lives unfold, I believe. Hopefully this also helps us to be more tolerant (less judgmental of the 'exterior') of others and their lifestyles/courses of action. Btw, if anyone is able to make a trip to HK, now is a great time - 5 star super-bargains in the empty hotels which have never been more spotless or offered such good service. If you like hikes and beaches, even better! metta, Sarah ====== 21713 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Smallchap, > > is not there, but it does appear to be there and there and > > there, > > this is because of the nature of 'concept', it cannot but > > appear > > permanent. > > S: This will bring us back to Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta. It will > be well that I pursue no further in this matter. I think maybe I now understand the reason for this. You are saying that such kind of thinking is dangerous?! This sounds reasonable, and I thankyou for reminding me. This I think, is a good example of the value of discussions with wise friends. ;-) Left to ourselves, wrong view and other kinds of akusala take over. > > understood his ultimate meaning, these can as likely the case > > be > > satisfied with the inferred meaning of impermanence. And this > > knowledge if held on to as final knowledge, wouldn't lead to > > liberation. > > S: Although I do not share your view completely, I must thank > you for your effort of explaining it to me. My understanding is > every kusala concept is the foundation of future insight. Every > cultivation of the 37 enlightenment factors will reach it > fullness when one wins the paths and the fruits. I don't know anything about the 37 enlightenment factors, but I looked it up in the dictionary, and I think I am missing something important. Perhaps I will have time to read more about it later. I think all kusala helps one along the path, but as you corrected later, it must be with right view. One of the wonderful things about Buddhadhamma is the teachings on the Parami. It shows me that not only every form of kusala should not be overlooked, but that they actually relate to one another in such a way that one should not be isolated at the exclusion of others. Anytime kusala citta arises at moments of dana or sila, it is good to be aware of it as just a dhamma, not self. Knowing it for what it is will accumulate as parami, otherwise if it is done with 'self' then it is not so beneficial. One ends up taking it as my dana, my sila etc. Likewise I think that when one concentrates on one of the 'factors of awakening' and try to develop it with a 'self', then it may not lead to the correct results. I don't think that any of the factors of the 8th fold path can be developed seperately. They arise by conditions, the primary of which is understanding nama and rupa as it is, constantly, again and again. I think there is a difference in conventional understanding of energy, livelihood, concentration etc. from the corresponding factors in the Noble path. Giving it conventional interpretation will give rise to idea of developing them one by one. I don't even think that one can develop panna by trying to develop panna. One ends up 'doing' things, like meditating and reading the suttas. But I think it is the function of panna itself with the help of chandha, which leads to seeking more understanding and hence conditioning more panna. If self comes in, then what is read may not be understood at all. > > direct perception. One must come to know the objects through > > the six- > > senses first. > > S: There are two approaches: 1. Sila, Samadha, Panna; 2. Panna, > Sila, Samadhi. Either approach can lead to insight. But every step of the way must require panna to be present. I don't think it is a question of approach, but varying strengths. Besides what is panna in isolation, is not panna in relation to some reality? Panna in relation to sila, panna in relation to dana, pana in relation to bhavana, no?! Feedback would be appreciated. best, Sukin. 21714 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Topics of Conversation (Re: the Bogor group) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this reply! I am glad that you enjoy the references. I > tend to think that the word "bhava" means not only "sentiet being" > but "being", "becoming", and "existence". I tend to see that the > discussions on whether things exist or not as idle chatter because I > don't see them relevant to the Buddha's teaching. ..... In the context you raised (the AN sutta), I understand bhava to refer to “existence” and speculation about future existence, but it's only guess-work on my part and may not be right. (I’d be interested to hear any further notes from the commentary on that section under idle talk if anyone has access to it in Pali or Thai.) I think the difference in understanding about the relevance or not of “whether things exist” or not all relates to our understanding of the khandhas and the significance of this. ..... > This is how I see it: the Buddha's teaching in and of itself is not > concerned about figuring out "what is it?" or "does it exist?" It > is really about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is about the > origin of dukkha, the way that leads to the cessation of dukkha. ..... We agree about the 4NT, but for many of us, these refer to the khandhas which refer to paramattha dhammas (NOT concepts) only. so we have to understand first exactly "what is it?" or "does it exist?" ..... > Regarding the five aggregates, I would say that they include every > conditioned, fabricated phenomenon/thing/situation. They include > everything in the world from concrete objects such as desk, body, > eye, nose, to joy, grief, happiness, to marriage, relationship, > separation, union to abstract ideas, concepts. I see that the > Buddha's teaching is about liberation from the world. > > Your feedback is appreciated! ..... I appreciate your encouragement, Victor. The following extracts below are from Nyantiloka’s dictionary. I take it you would disagree with these classifications? If not, which khandha do the following fit into and how? >desk, body, > eye, nose, to joy, grief, happiness, to marriage, relationship, > separation, union to abstract ideas, concepts. ..... Metta, Sarah From: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm * khandha ======== the 5 'groups (of existence)' or 'groups of clinging' (upádánakkhandha); alternative renderings: aggregates, categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality, to wit: * (1) the corporeality group (rúpa-kkhandha), * (2) the feeling group (vedaná-kkhandha), * (3) the perception group (saññá-kkhandha), * (4) the mental-formation group (sankhára-kkhandha), * (5) the consciousness-group (viññána-kkhandha). "Whatever there exists of corporeal things, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the corporeality group. Whatever there exists of feeling ... of perception ... of mental formations ... of consciousness ... all that belongs to the consciousness-group" (S. XXII, 48). - In S. XXII, 56, there is the following short definition of these 5 groups: "What, o monks, is the corporeality-group? The 4 primary elements (mahá-bhúta or dhátu) and corporeality depending thereon, this is called the corporeality-group. * "What, o monks, is the feeling-group? There are 6 classes of feeling: due to visual impression, to sound impression, to odour impression, to taste impression, to bodily impression, and to mind impression.... * "What, o monks, is the perception-group? There are 6 classes of perception: perception of visual objects, of sounds, of odours, of tastes, of bodily impressions, and of mental impressions.... * "What, o monks, is the group of mental formations? There are 6 classes of volitional states (cetaná): with regard to visual objects, to sounds, to odours, to tastes, to bodily impressions and to mind objects.... * "What, o monks, is the consciousness-group? There are 6 classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, and mind-consciousness." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- SUMMARY OF THE 5 GROUPS I. Corporeality Group (rúpa-kkhandha) A. Underived (no-upádá): 4 elements * the solid, or earth-element (pathaví-dhátu) * the liquid, or water-element (ápo-dhátu) * heat, or fire-element (tejo-dhátu) * motion, or wind-element (váyo-dhátu) B. Derived (upádá): 24 secondary phenomena * Physical sense-organs of: seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, body * Physical sense-objects: form, sound, odour, taste, (bodily impacts) * femininity (itthindriya) * virility (purisindriya) * physical base of mind (hadaya-vatthu) * bodily expression (káya-viññatti; s. viññatti) * verbal expression (vací-viññatti) * physical life (rúpa jívita; s. jívita) * space element (ákása-dhátu) * physical agility (rúpassa lahutá) * physical elasticity (rúpassa mudutá) * physical adaptability (rúpassa kammaññatá) * physical growth (rúpassa upacaya) * physical continuity (rúpassa santati; s. santána) * decay (jará) * impermanence (aniccatá) * nutriment (áhára) II. Feeling Group (vedaná-kkhandha) All feelings may, according to their nature, be classified as 5 kinds: * bodily agreeable feeling sukha = káyiká sukhá vedaná * bodily painful feeling dukkha = káyiká dukkhá vedaná * mentally agreeable feeling somanassa = cetasiká sukhá vedaná * mentally painful feeling domanassa = cetasiká dukkhá vedaná * indifferent feeling upekkhá = adukkha-m-asukhá vedaná III. Perception Group (saññá-kkhandha) All perceptions are divided into 6 classes: *perception of form, sound, odour, taste, bodily impression, and mental impression. IV. Group of Mental Formations (sankhára-kkhandha) This group comprises 50 mental phenomena, of which * 11 are general psychological elements, * 25 lofty (sobhana) qualities, * 14 karmically unwholesome qualities. Cf. Tab. II. V. Consciousness Group (viññána-kkhandha) The Suttas divide consciousness, according to the senses, into 6 classes: *eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-consciousness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 21715 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:28am Subject: Re: Death and Suicide Vicky and all, Death and Suicide, The Buddha in his disciplinary rules to his disciples, had prohibited suicide. But I do not think he had spoken about suicide, except in the case of the Ven.Channa, an arahat with terrible head and belly pains. Perhaps he did not speak about suicide as it is a Kamma vipaka . If one commits sucide thinking that his killing himself, may deliver him from suffering, could we say that he had an attachment to death, thinking the death is a lesser evil than the suffering that he is under going ? But who has the right to take away life, of one self or that of another ? The suicide is a kamma vipaka, that nobody may be able to change, which takes effect when his akusala kamma( the kamma producing vipaka) is dominant. In any case one who commits suicide is doing so with an unwholesome consciousness (akusala citta) rooted in delusion (dosa,moha). In Milindappahana, the King Milinda asked Ven.Nagasena, why Buddha who taught the way to end all suffering, ruled out suicide to his disciples as, suicide is for that person committing the act an end to his suffering ? Venerable Nagasena, gave a long explanation, in which he says "……..Occurrence, ( of death) sire,is suffering, non- occurrence is bliss. Illustrating the special quality of non- occurrence and peril there is in occurrence , the Blessed one, Sir, for the realisation of non-occurrence, roused disciples to pass beyond birth, ageing, disease and death…." This even though I have taken just a few sentences, explains itself. I cannot therefore elaborate on it. If we can understand the person who is going to commit suicide and eliminate the conditions that may push him to do it, it may be a possible solution. But unfortunately, the suicides are committed in total silence, without letting others know about it. Some people who survived suicide attempts had, it seems, said that at one point of the attempt, they were expecting some one to save them. But it is not always so simple. Each of us bring our own kamma, and how and when these kamma take effect is indeterminate and not within our control. The condition of life after the suicide, depends on the citta that was present before the cuti-citta, which would be the patisandi-citta of the new life. There also, we have to guess… Next question is about death: In explaining why death makes us sad and plunge into dukkha, we have to look into the root causes of suffering-lobha, dosa, moha. Why do we feel sad when some one dear to us dies ? Are we sad for the dead person or sad for ourselves ? We feel sad because some one we loved has died and we are deprived of that love. It comes from two things, belief or, the delusion (moha) of a "self" – me- the mother, father, or sister, and second ,clinging ( upadana)to an object of attachment ( my son, my brother ) If we were able to detach from these objects of attachment (arammanas) and see them as ultimate realities(paramatta dhamma) as aggregates ( as much as we are ourselves), we may then be able to reduce our pain. But to seeing things in their ultimate nature is a long process……….. With metta, Yasalalaka 21716 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, I agree with almost everything you say in this post and I’m sure we all appreciate all your comments and contributions. I think we’re here to discuss all and any parts of the Tipitaka, so pls don’t feel discouraged and pls continue to encourage Sukin as well - I'm sure others, besides myself, were also enjoying your dialogue;-) ..... --- yasalalaka wrote: > > In vipassana, the Buddha tried to see the ` working', not just the > understanding, of impermanence(anicca), unsatisfactoriness( dukkha ) > and no-self (anatta). It is only through this insight or penetrating > into the working of his own mind that the Buddha, `saw' dukkha, its > cause, the way out of it and its cessation. ..... I’m not sure how the ‘working’ is different from the understanding??? ..... > > He was able to differentiate between the conventional truth and the > ultimate truth. A being is just five aggregates ( rupakkhandha, > vedenakkhandha,sannanakkhandha, vinnanakkhandha and > sankharakkhandha), and the cause of this suffering is rooted in > lobha, dosa, moha, which has created in the mind of the being that he > is a person, a "self", and every thing around is permanent, pleasant, > and that they are for his enjoyment. ..... This is a good summary along with your earlier comments which I snipped. ..... >The Buddha knew that once the > beings become aware of the irreality of this thinking, they will > turn to his teaching, which will enable them to go through the same > experience he went through and attain nibbana. ..... I think I understand your point. However, I think that everyone has different experiences and the aim is not to emulate or copy another’s experience but to develop understanding, regardless of the particular experiences, that leads to detachment and eradication of the kilesa (defilements). In the Buddha’s time, surely different people had different inclinations and lifestyles and there was no rule that everyone had to follow the exact pattern of the Buddha. How could they? For example, when Visakkha became a sotapanna at the age of seven, it wasn’t by following the life of a recluse or developing jhana (as far as I know), but by really understanding the conditioned nature of phenomena and seeing them as anatta in her daily life. This is why, as I mentioned in my other post to Michael, I believe the path to liberation is more about understanding dhammas and present awareness of namas and rupas than in setting any fixed rules (for lay people that is) or determining particular courses of action. As you know, panna (wisdom) and sati (awareness) are conditioned phenomena as well. There is no self to do anything. I believe that if there is more precise understanding of all kinds of phenomena, by conditions kusala of all kinds (including samatha) will develop naturally and with detachment. These states won’t develop by wishing and clinging to self. We’ve discussed a lot about metta here and how easy it is to kid oneself that it is developing at particular times and in special ways. By knowing more about its precise nature and seeing how infrequent it really is, can be a condition for it to arise when least expected in daily life and without any special intention. This is a beginning. We don’t need to be concerned about advanced stages of metta or other kinds of samatha when there so seldom is even a beginning. You may not agree;-) Look forward to more of your helpful comments. With metta, Sarah ====== 21717 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:11am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Robert K, Thanks for your feedback! I would like to say that concept of a desk, for instance, is not one and the same as a desk. Your feedback on the following is much appreciated. Concepts are formed by citta, or in Jon's words, they are assembled by mind. Whatever is formed/assembled, disintegrates, does not last, subject to change, passes away. In that sense, a concept is impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is impermanent, subject to change is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing thus, one grows dispassionate towards concept. Again, thanks for your reply! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: [snip] > Dear Victor, > I do see why this appears to be a contradiction - that a concept > doesn't exist (is asabhava) and yet it can still be a object of > citta. > Let's take an example now. Think of a flying purple elephant. While > thinking of this there is vedanakkhandha (the aggregate of feeling), > there is sannakkhandha (the aggregate of perception, memory ) > that 'remembers' the shape of an elephant and the color purple. > There is sankharakkhanda (the formations that includes all other > cetasikas) and there is vinnakkhandha (the aggregate of > consciousness). These are all paramattha dhammas, they are > conditioned and impermanent and not self. > But there is no purple, flying elephant - that is pannati, concept, > and yet it is the object at that time. It is dhammarammana. But it > is the dhammarammana that is asabhava, non-existant. > RobertK 21718 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:55am Subject: Some questions for you! Dear Christine, How are you? I'm Sandy! I'm glad that Rusty has recovered really well from the operation! What really happened to Rusty? 1. When did the Buddha lived? 2. What has the Buddha done in the past? (example: Has the Buddha ever done bad things?) 3. Did the Buddha have any enemies? Metta, Sandy 21719 From: Star Kid Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:57am Subject: Kom~!* Dear Kom: Thanks for your reply, and the explainatin of I think everyone did bad and good in their life. I agree with you that we won't know what we will be after the death. Finally I want to ask you a question. Will you descriminate against the Chinese?(Because of the SARS) Take care of your health, Metta, Kiana. 21720 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: Some questions for you! Sandy, Please have a quick look at the following two websites: It will answer your first question and others. http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/ayubovan http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/SAMBODHI with metta, Yasalalaka 21721 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:05am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Dear Sarah, and all, Thank you for those words, Sarah. It really takes a burden off me. I was hesitant to make my post, not really knowing how it would be received. Sukin said (post:21672) "Yasalalaka, we do not have to continue with this if you do not want to. I know that some of what I have expressed goes against a few other member's understandings and I have already run into trouble more than once, so even I do not really feel like saying too much of the same thing. But I hope at least you don't mind what I have expressed above…" and I was nonplussed. Anyway, thank you again for giving me a chance to post. These posts help me to concentrate on the subject as I write, I also get the opportunity to understand the dhamma better, clearing my own difficulties in understanding. Using words is a jigsaw-puzzle, specially in the expression of dhamma: " working of the mind" "understanding", "being aware", "realise", "discern", "perceive", "penetrate into the truth". And the Pali words have different connotations when translated in to English. Understanding as far as my thinking goes,is what we do when we read, or what happens to a child's mind, when some thing is explained. But in "insight" something begins to "glow inside ", when the truth is perceived. What is the best word that will explain it? Have any of you, had a near death experience ? I had, and I cannot explain it without making people misunderstand the situation. When you say that there was a bright light, it is not the light that emanates from an electric bulb of say 100 or more watts. It is not the light like the day-light. It is a light WITHOUT a light, immaculately clear, a soothing light, not bright, and blinding, without shadows, submerging you with a very comfortable feeling . A seeing without eyes …… See the difficulty. Even all that does not really explain what I experienced. So we have to make do with the implements we have, however much they are inadequate. Added to all that, English is not my mother tongue. We may perhaps say "insight", because the Buddha was letting his mind penetrate into the "mind", and the "truth" came out of that "great mind". Yes, you should not emulate any one, but whom more can we emulate than the Buddha himself. We cannot, but nevertheless we can try. He was Tatagata- the Nibbana personified. He showed us the path, we will follow it as our mind dictates Or the way the kamma has shaped our mind. The mind is conditioned by our past accumulations. Even our interest in dhamma in this life harks back to our past kamma. Some people have what is called khanika samadhi (momentary concentration). They can get into a state of Samadhi immediately. That is called a (bhava puruddha) training we have had in previous lives, manifesting in this life. The Buddha is of course special, he had his khanika samadhi when he was still a baby ! But one who practices meditation and is able to place the mind on the in and out breath for a long period of time without any thoughts arising, can from time to time stop what ever he is doing and place his mind on the breath and get into a state of samadhi for a few minutes or seconds. That is also momentary samadhi. One can practice samatha meditation with any arammana. The in and out breath, the rising and falling of the stomac, or any one of the kasina. That is merely to arrive at one pointed concentration to purify the mind before sitting for vipassana. In and out breath was the Buddha's object of concentration, and suits all persons of any character. Any thing we do has a way of doing it, to take a hackneyed example is a baby. He makes gradual movements, before he stands up and walks. Learning to play a violin, is similar, first you will make screeching noises, and pass exams before you become a maestro ! The meditation is also similar. We have to go step by step. You will realize how great learning Abhidhamma is, when you meditate. Meditation is all on paramatta dhamma. It is the psycho-physical phenopenona (nama-rupa), cause and effect(hetu-phala), rising and falling away, constant change(anicca), pain and pleasant states of mind (vedana), as it happens(here and now). Nothing is mechanical, all is a confusion of cetana, citta and cetasika rising, and falling away, one after another. You will see citta accompanied with lobha, dosa and moha. You will see how objects come in contact with sense doors (passa), how citta arises and become aware of an object not knowing what it is (vinnana), there will be a pleasant or unpleasant feeling(vedana), then the object is recognises( sanna) before it fades away as a concept (vinnana, and sankhara). To be mindful is important, but you will have to make things happen, and that is where the right effort comes in. I will stop here, before the post becomes too long and unwieldy. With metta, Yasalalaka 21722 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca) Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/28/03 12:55:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Victor, > I do see why this appears to be a contradiction - that a concept > doesn't exist (is asabhava) and yet it can still be a object of > citta. > Let's take an example now. Think of a flying purple elephant. While > thinking of this there is vedanakkhandha (the aggregate of feeling), > there is sannakkhandha (the aggregate of perception, memory ) > that 'remembers' the shape of an elephant and the color purple. > There is sankharakkhanda (the formations that includes all other > cetasikas) and there is vinnakkhandha (the aggregate of > consciousness). These are all paramattha dhammas, they are > conditioned and impermanent and not self. > But there is no purple, flying elephant - that is pannati, concept, > and yet it is the object at that time. It is dhammarammana. But it > is the dhammarammana that is asabhava, non-existant. > RobertK > ========================== Agreed that there exists no purple, flying elephant. (In fact, there is no keyboard on which I am typing at this very moment!) But more critical, I think, is the question of whether there is the *idea/thought* of a purple, flying elephant, for *that* is what most people would mean by the concept of "purple, flying elephant". Are you saying that there is no single mind-door object that is that idea/thought, but only a group of various mind-door objects, including several images, verbal phrases, mentally, and collectively, labelled by 'purple, flying elephant'? If that is your point, I think it is a reasonable one. Some concepts are, indeed, single mind-door objects, and other supposedly single concepts are actually not single at all. (Just as we put labels on mentally collected groups of rupas, we do the same with mind-door objects.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21723 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/28/03 2:47:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > What is Citta? > > Slide Contents > ============== > - Citta is pure awareness > > - Process of being aware of an object: Citta is an activity > > - That which is aware of an object: Citta is an agent > > ============================= I find myself stopping at this point. Exactly what is meant by 'agent'? The Merriam-Webster disctionary gives the following: Main Entry: agent Pronunciation: 'A-j&nt Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin agent-, agens, from Latin, present participle of agere to drive, lead, act, do; akin to Old Norse aka to travel in a vehicle, Greek agein to drive, lead Date: 15th century 1 : one that acts or exerts power 2 a : something that produces or is capable of producing an effect : an active or efficient cause b : a chemically, physically, or biologically active principle 3 : a means or instrument by which a guiding intelligence achieves a result 4 : one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another: as a : a representative, emissary, or official of a government b : one engaged in undercover activities (as espionage) : SPY c : a business representative (as of an athlete or entertainer) Pronunciation Key © 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy I am not accepting of citta/vi~n~nana being an agent as defined above. It is not some "thing", some "one", or some entity which does something. It is the *doing*. Vi~n~nana is knowing an object, rather than some "thing" which knows. It is an occurrence, an event. I am uneasy with agent terminology, though it is commonly used by many abhidhammikas. I think it can be seriously misleading. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21724 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:57am Subject: Re: New Member Intro Hi Vicki, Welcome! I have inserted some comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki Berman" wrote: > I would like to introduce myself, my name is Vicki and will start by telling you a wee bit about myself. Currently I work at a hospital writing computer programs to analyze the information about patients. I must be doing something right because we won an award from a national medical group for one of my reports. I also got an outstanding staff award for it. I am a middle aged divorced mother of two teenagers, two dogs, and two cats. I weave and spin when I have time. I am exploring Buddhism from many angles. I grew up learning about Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have a friend teaching me about Nishoren Buddhism. But on to my question. ===== Wow, what an eclectic mix! ===== > My father was born in China and has talked a lot about Buddhism while I grew up. He recently had some heart trouble, and my sister made a comment that "he wasn't being spiritual enough about his own death." The rest of us thought it was okay for him to work on life style changes to help save his life, but this sister had other ideas about death. Evidently she was "spiritual" about it because she killed herself in February. She had a beautiful ying-yang pendant around her neck when she died, and her note said that she would see us on the other side. ===== My father recently visited me from Canada (I live in Malaysia). He has had prostrate cancer for a few years. I passed to him an excellent Dhamma talk on CD by Ajahn Brahmavamso called "Dealing with Sickness and Death". Though my father is not a Buddhist, he found the talk extremely uplifting. I was searching around the house this morning, but I gave my only copy to my father when he left. I am going to try and track down another. If I find one, can I send it by post to Mike Nease (I have his address)? Otherwise, I will let you know when I have found it and you can email me your snail mail address. I really think that your father would enjoy this CD. I do not understand your sister's message of "see you on the other side". That sounds quite Christian. Was she a Buddhist? ===== > My family was shocked at this unexpected tragedy and we are learning to live with our new reality. (It is suffering as I never knew suffering existed, we were very attached to her). ===== You and your family have been given a very important lesson; that the cause of stress / suffering / dukkha is desire / attachment. It reminds me of the Gandhabhaka (Bhadraka) Sutta (Sn XLII.11) in which the Buddha used the death of family members to illustrate this link between suffering and desire: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-011.html ===== > So my question is this: What did the Buddha teach about suicide? I've heard stories of elderly Zen monks passing on, in a state of total awareness, at a time of their choice, but they were at the end of their lives anyway, not a healthy, but depressed, person in the middle of their lives. ===== As some others have mentioned (recently and in the archive), monks cannot condone or support suicide. I don't think that the Buddha talked specifcially about suicide for laypeople, but He did talk a lot about the importance of the last thought before death. It is this last thought that determines the next rebirth. If somebody's last thought was anger (including anger at themselves), they could be reborn in hell. If their last thought was delusion, they could be reborn as animals. The Yodhajiva Sutta (Sn XLII.3) is an example of the Buddha's teaching in this area: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-003.html Your terms "end of their lives" and "middle of their lives" can be a little misleading. If there are countless lives already lived and countless lives yet to live, to put such a focus on the place within the current existence might be a little "pre-Copernicus" (i.e. earth is centre of the universe). I hope that my comments help you. I hope that they don't sound cold and analytical at this difficult time. Metta, Rob M :-) 21725 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment Hi Howard, You raise an interesting point. You are correct; I copied this from Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA without thinking much about it. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 4/28/03 2:47:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > > > What is Citta? > > > > Slide Contents > > ============== > > - Citta is pure awareness > > > > - Process of being aware of an object: Citta is an activity > > > > - That which is aware of an object: Citta is an agent > > > > > ============================= > I find myself stopping at this point. Exactly what is meant by > 'agent'? > It is not some "thing", some "one", or some entity which does something. It > is the *doing*. Vi~n~nana is knowing an object, rather than some "thing" > which knows. It is an occurrence, an event. I am uneasy with agent > terminology, though it is commonly used by many abhidhammikas. I think it can > be seriously misleading. Taken out of context, almost any term can be misleading. I think that we have to look at all three parts of the definition together to put the term "agent" into perspective. If we just look at the first part of the definition (activity), one is left with the question, "If citta is only an activity, then what/who performs this activity?" The answer is in the second part of the definition; it is the citta itself that performs the activity. In other words, citta is the action and it is the doer of the action. In my mind, the concept of "doer of action" might be included in the definition of "agent" (but I admit it is not a clear inclusion). Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 21726 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:44am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > Have any of you, had a near death experience ? I had, and I cannot > explain it without making people misunderstand the situation. When > you say that there was a bright light, it is not the light that > emanates from an electric bulb of say 100 or more watts. It is not > the light like the day-light. It is a light WITHOUT a light, > immaculately clear, a soothing light, not bright, and blinding, > without shadows, submerging you with a very comfortable feeling . A > seeing without eyes …… See the difficulty. Even all that does not > really explain what I experienced. I heard in a Dhamma talk that the "bright light" of near death experiences is simply the direct perception of citta (mind). A direct perception of the mind without a self attached. From a medical perspective (I am not a doctor), the Orientation Association Area (OAA) in the left-parietal lobe is normally one of the most active portions of the brain. The OAA takes incoming data from the senses and puts it into context by creating an artificial "self" at the centre. When blood flow to this portion of the brain is significantly reduced (involuntarily as in near death experiences, or voluntarily as in deep meditation / prayer), and the sense of self is supressed. Perhaps in your near death experience you had a direct experience of anatta. Such an experience could be a strong condition for effort and what could be called "bright" faith. Allow me to explain what I mean by "bright" faith. I am standing at the edge of a large creek wanting to get to the other side. If I keep repeating, "I can do it! I know that I can do it! It can be done! I believe!", this is blind faith (the type of faith encouraged by some religions). If while you are standing there you witness another person take a running jump and clear the stream, you say to yourself, "I know that it can be done because I have seen it. I watched it being done and I am convinced." This is "dull faith" (in this analogy, this is like studying the Dhamma). Once you have jumped over the stream yourself you can look back with "bright" faith and say to yourself, "I know it can be done because I have done it!" It sounds as though you "jumped over the stream" momentarily during your near death experience. You can use the Dhamma to better understand what happened. Yasalalaka, you have had a near-death experience, but I have not. Does this make sense to you or do you think I am wandering blindly? Metta, Rob M :-) 21727 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/28/03 11:28:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > >It is not some "thing", some "one", or some entity which does > something. It > >is the *doing*. Vi~n~nana is knowing an object, rather than > some "thing" > >which knows. It is an occurrence, an event. I am uneasy with agent > >terminology, though it is commonly used by many abhidhammikas. I > think it can > >be seriously misleading. > > Taken out of context, almost any term can be misleading. I think > that we have to look at all three parts of the definition together > to put the term "agent" into perspective. If we just look at the > first part of the definition (activity), one is left with the > question, "If citta is only an activity, then what/who performs this > activity?" The answer is in the second part of the definition; it is > the citta itself that performs the activity. In other words, citta > is the action and it is the doer of the action. In my mind, the > concept of "doer of action" might be included in the definition > of "agent" (but I admit it is not a clear inclusion). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the answer "it is the citta itself that performs the activity. In other words, citta is the action and it is the doer of the action" is a wrong answer. I think the right answer is that there is the doing, but no doer. There is no doer of the deed. > 'Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found. > The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there. > Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it. > The path is, but no traveller on it is seen. > > (Vis.M. XVI) People want a doer, they crave a doer, they cling to a doer. But there is none. There being no doer, no agent, is at least part of the meaning of 'anatta'. -------------------------------------------------- > > Comments? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21728 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:12am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 2. Perfections, Ch 9, Determination, no 2. We read in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² (III. 6, Conduct of Wise Temiya) [3] that the Buddha related one of his past lives: When I was the son of the king of Kåsi, I was named Múga-Pakkha (meaning deaf and cripple), but people called me Temiya [4] . My father and mother and other people called me Múga-Pakkha because they considered me dumb and cripple. As the Bodhisatta (born) in that life I caused great rapture and joy to the king and the ministers and therefore I received the name Temiya. Thus, he had two names, Temiya and Múga-Pakkha, because of different reasons. We read: During that life king Kåsiråjå ruled in Vårånasí. He had sixteen thousand wives, but not one of them conceived either son or daughter. The citizens were worried, saying, ³Our king has no son to keep up his lineage², and they begged the king to pray for a son. All those wives worshipped the moon, but they obtained no children. Now his chief queen Candådeví, the daughter of the king of Maddas, was leading a virtuous life and the king asked her also to pray for a son. On the day of the full moon she observed the Uposatha vows and while she reflected on her virtuous life she made an act of truth, saying, ³If I have never transgressed síla, may by this assertion of truth a son be borne to me.² At that time the Bodhisatta was conceived in the womb of queen Candådeví. When the Bodhisatta was born, also five hundred young nobles were born in the ministers¹ houses. The king ordered that these young nobles would be the retinue of the royal prince. He sent five hundred wetnurses and five hundred princely dresses to the five hundred young nobles. Moreover, he arranged for sixty-four wetnurses to take care of the Bodhisatta. When the young prince was one month old the wetnurses brought him to the king and the king placed him on his hip. Now at that time four robbers were brought before him to be sentenced. One of them was sentenced by the king to receive a thousand strokes from whips barbed with thorns, another to be imprisoned in chains, the third to be smitten with a spear and the fourth to be impaled. When the Bodhisatta heard the verdict spoken by his father, he became disenchanted , because he was afraid of committing grievous action which would result in rebirth in hell. The next day the wetnurses laid him on a bed under a white umbrella, and after a short sleep he opened his eyes and saw the white umbrella. He pondered, ³From whence have I come into this palace?² By his recollection of former lives he remembered that he had once come from a heavenly plane and then, while he recollected the life previous to that one, he remembered that he had suffered in the ³Ussada Hell². When he recollected his life before that one, he remembered that he had been the king in this very city. The following thoughts occurred to him: ³I do not need the kingdom. How can I escape from this house of robbers?² Then a goddess who dwelt in the umbrella and who had in a previous life been his mother, was seeking his benefit and she advised him to pretend to be dumb, cripple and deaf, so that he could escape from becoming the king. Footnotes: 3. Jåtaka no. 538, Múgapakkha Jåtaka. 4. Temiya means wet. On the day of his birth a great shower of rain made him wet. 21729 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:12am Subject: Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. The Parinnibbåna of the Arahat who is a Layman, continued. ³Well then, revered Någasena, the peaceful state of arahantship is given up if the life of him who attains it in this manner is carried away.² ³Unequal [4] , sire, are the attributes of a householder. The attributes being unequal, it is owing to the weakness of his attributes that a householder who has attained arahanship either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day. This is not a defect in arahantship, sire, this is a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness of the attributes. It is sire, as the food that guards the lifespan and protects the life of all beings yet carries away the life of him whose stomach is out of order and who has a sluggish and weak digestion, because it is not properly digested. This, sire, is not a defect in the food, this is a defect in the stomach, namely a weakness in its heat. Even so, sire, the attributes being unequal, it is owing to the weakness of his attributes that a householder who has attained arahantship either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day. This is not a defect in arahantship, sire, this is a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness of the attributes. Or, sire, as a heavy stone may be put on top of a small stalk of grass which in its weakness is broken and collapses, even so, sire, the householder who has attained arahanship (but) being unable to sustain arahantship because of that attribute (of weakness) either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day. Or, sire, as a man who is feeble and weak, of lowly birth and of little merit, comes to naught and to ruin the moment he has acquired a great and mighty kingdom, falters and is unable to sustain the authority, even so, sire, the householder who has attained arahantship is unable to sustain arahantship because of that attribute (of weakness), and for that reason he either goes forth or attains final nibbåna on that very day.² ³It is good, revered Någasena; so it is, therefore do I accept it.² ****** Footnote 4 The state of a layman cannot be compared to the monk¹s state, it is not equal to it. 21730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma -Milinda's Questions Dear Rob M, Perhaps it is safer if I change my date also: at or a little after the beginning of the Christian era. At the back of the cover, it is said, It is possible that King Menander is not the same as Milinda, but as you probable also think, such things are not relevant for the contents of the book. My part 2 is translated by Horner, but it has no intro. Nina. op 27-04-2003 23:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > Hi Nina, > > I have "The Questions of King Milinda Part I / II" Tr by T.W. Rhys > Davids...Written in Northern India, at or a > little after the beginning of the Christian era, and either in > Sanskrit..." > 21731 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:42am Subject: [dsg] Topics of Conversation (Re: the Bogor group) Hi Sarah, Thanks for this message and the reference. I appreciate it!! Like I said earlier, I see that the five aggregates as collections of all conditioned, fabricated things/phenomena/situations. For instances, I see that grief belongs to the feeling aggregate, that not getting what is wanted, separation from the loved, and being with the unloved belong to the formations aggregate. I also see that concepts, thoughts, ideas belongs to the formations aggregate. That is just how I would classify these phenomena using the schema of the five aggregates. I would not disagree with the classifications in Nyantiloka's dictionary. However, I would like to emphasize and reiterate that the classification of the five aggregates include the whole range of conditioned, fabricated things or phenomena or situations. This classification, as I tend to see it, is very general. I would also classify marriage to the formations aggregate. To me, it is not much classifying what to which aggregate. It is to see that, formations, or its special instance, marriage, is impermanent, dukkha, not self. Thanks again for this message and the reference. Your feedback is much appreciated. Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thanks for this reply! I am glad that you enjoy the references. I > > tend to think that the word "bhava" means not only "sentiet being" > > but "being", "becoming", and "existence". I tend to see that the > > discussions on whether things exist or not as idle chatter because I > > don't see them relevant to the Buddha's teaching. > ..... > In the context you raised (the AN sutta), I understand bhava to refer to > "existence" and speculation about future existence, but it's only > guess-work on my part and may not be right. > > (I'd be interested to hear any further notes from the commentary on that > section under idle talk if anyone has access to it in Pali or Thai.) > > I think the difference in understanding about the relevance or not of > "whether things exist" or not all relates to our understanding of the > khandhas and the significance of this. > ..... > > This is how I see it: the Buddha's teaching in and of itself is not > > concerned about figuring out "what is it?" or "does it exist?" It > > is really about dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. It is about the > > origin of dukkha, the way that leads to the cessation of dukkha. > ..... > We agree about the 4NT, but for many of us, these refer to the khandhas > which refer to paramattha dhammas (NOT concepts) only. so we have to > understand first exactly "what is it?" or "does it exist?" > ..... > > Regarding the five aggregates, I would say that they include every > > conditioned, fabricated phenomenon/thing/situation. They include > > everything in the world from concrete objects such as desk, body, > > eye, nose, to joy, grief, happiness, to marriage, relationship, > > separation, union to abstract ideas, concepts. I see that the > > Buddha's teaching is about liberation from the world. > > > > Your feedback is appreciated! > ..... > I appreciate your encouragement, Victor. > > The following extracts below are from Nyantiloka's dictionary. I take it > you would disagree with these classifications? If not, which khandha do > the following fit into and how? > > >desk, body, > > eye, nose, to joy, grief, happiness, to marriage, relationship, > > separation, union to abstract ideas, concepts. > ..... > > Metta, > > Sarah 21732 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:29pm Subject: The Buddha's Enemy - for Sandy Hello Sandy, One of the questions you asked me was whether the Buddha had any enemies. Yes, he did - usually those who were jealous of him. But he never felt hatred towards them, nor wished them harm. He always showed them goodwill and compassion no matter what they did. Here is some information about Devadatta, the Buddha's cousin, who was his enemy and even tried to kill him. metta, Christine "Devadatta, the Buddha's Enemy Devadatta was the son of King Suppabuddha and his wife Pamita, who was an aunt of the Buddha. Devadatta's sister was Yasodhara, making him both a cousin and brother-in-law of the Buddha. Together with Ananda and other Sakyan princes, he entered the order of monks in the early part of the Buddha's ministry, but was unable to attain any stage of sainthood and so worked hard for the worldly psychic powers. In his early days, he was a good monk known for his grace and psychic powers. Later he became conceited with worldly gain and fame. As his ill-will and jealousy towards the Buddha increased, he became the greatest personal enemy of the Buddha. One day in a large assembly, which included kings and princes, Devadatta approached the Buddha and asked him to make him the leader of the Sangha. Since he was not capable and worthy enough, the Buddha turned down this request. Devadatta became very angry as a result and vowed to take revenge on the Buddha. Although Devadatta was an evil monk, he had many admirers and followers. One of his chief supporters was King Ajatasattu, with whom he discussed his anger and plots for revenge. Together they planned to kill King Ajatasattu's father and rival, King Bimbisara and Devadatta's enemy, the Buddha. Ajatasattu succeeded in killing his father, but Devadatta failed to kill the Buddha. His first attempt to kill the Buddha was to hire a man to kill the Blessed One. The plan was that the man be killed by two other men who would in turn be killed by four other men. Finally the four men would be killed by eight other men. But when the first man came close to the Buddha, he became frightened. He put aside his weapons and took refuge in the Buddha. Eventually all the men who were hired to kill one another became disciples of the Buddha and the cunning plan failed. Then Devadatta himself tried to kill the Buddha. When the Buddha was walking on the Vultures' Rock, Devadatta climbed to the peak and hurled a huge stone at the Buddha. On its way down, the rock struck another rock and a splinter flew and wounded the Buddha's foot, causing blood to flow. The Buddha looked up and seeing Devadatta, he remarked with pity, "Foolish man, you have done many unwholesome deeds for harming the Buddha." Devadatta's third attempt to kill the Blessed One was to make the fierce man-killer elephant, Nalagiri, drunk with liquor. When Nalagiri saw the Buddha coming at a distance, it raised its ears, tail and trunk and charged at him. As the elephant came close, the Buddha radiated his loving-kindness (metta) towards the elephant. So vast and deep was the Buddha's love that as the elephant reached the Buddha, it stopped, became quiet and stood before the Master. The Buddha then stroked Nalagiri on the trunk and spoke softly. Respectfully, the elephant removed the dust at the master's feet with its trunk, and scattered the dust over its own head. Then it retreated, with its head facing the Buddha, as far as the stable, and remained fully tamed. Usually elephants are tamed with whips and weapons, but the Blessed One tamed the elephant with the power of his loving-kindness. Still trying to be the leader of the Sangha, Devadatta tried yet another plan—a deceitful one. With the help of five hundred misled monks, he planned to split the Sangha community. He requested the Buddha to make it compulsory for monks to follow five extra rules: (i) Dwell all their lives in the forest (ii) Live only on alms obtained by begging (iii) Wear robes made from rags collected from the dust heaps and cemeteries (iv) Live at the foot of trees (v) Refrain from eating fish or meat throughout their lives. Devadatta made this request, knowing full well that the Buddha would refuse it. Devadatta was happy that the Buddha did not approve of the five rules, and he used these issues to gain supporters and followers. Newly ordained monks who did not know the Dharma well left the Buddha and accepted Devadatta as their leader. Eventually, after Venerable Sariputta and Venerable Moggallana had explained the Dharma to them, they went back to the Buddha. After this, evil days fell on Devadatta. He fell very ill at the failure of his plans, and before his death he sincerely regretted his actions, and wanted to see the Buddha before he died. But the fruits of his evil karma had begun to ripen and prevented him from doing so. He grew desperately ill on the way to see the Buddha, near the gate of Jetavana monastery. But before he died he took refuge in the Buddha. Although he has to suffer in a woeful state because of his crimes, the holy life he led in the early part of his career ensured that Devadatta would become a Pacceka Buddha named Atthissara in the distant future. As a Pacceka Buddha he would be able to achieve Enlightenment by his own efforts." http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/lifebuddha/2_5lbud.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: 21733 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:45pm Subject: Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi, Sarah ~ I wrote out most of what I can remember about the class and will send it over a few posts. peace, connie Q: I was reading someone who was very adamant about saying Buddhism is definitely not a religion. What do you say about that? A: I say our understanding and agreement on anything we try to talk about is more important than the words we use and that the everyday words we just assume we understand are very misleading if we don't question them. Religion is one of those words people tend to be adamant about. To me, all our beliefs and everything about our lives is our religion. I'm more concerned with whether our beliefs are true and beneficial than what we call them because whether we call ourselves religious or not, our beliefs determine how we live and when our beliefs are wrong, we don't live according to the truth and I think that's harmful. Buddhism has also been called 'the religion of skeptics' because of what is called the Charter of Free Inquiry, a sutta where Buddha says we should discover the truth for ourselves and not just accept things on other people's authority, including his. Buddha called what he taught Dhamma-Vinaya, Doctrine and Discipline. Dhamma, what we usually call his teachings, comes from a root meaning 'to uphold'... the pure natural law or reality or truth that upholds everything. That is all that exists and you might call Buddhism a science or discipline, vinaya, because whatever exists can be proved by the methods he gave us. Ultimate truth doesn't change because we call it one thing or another but if by religion, you mean seeing a world where we have to placate gods who have the final say in what happens to us, then no, Buddhism is not a religion... unless you call Truth God and say that the more you uphold the Dhamma, the more you are upheld or saved. What we usually think of as gods are beings in higher planes who ultimately face the same fact of death that we do and have their own salavation to work out. They're just less likely to be concerned with it than we are. Actually, we have the advantage there, because we know we are in deep dukkha. There is also the sense that gods are natural functions and not actual beings, like what we call Mara or the devil is just negative forces or aspects that we follow to our own detriment. When we talk about non-attachment, we mean learning to see things as they really are, not as we like to think of them in our blindness or moha and ultimately, we'd let go of even our ideas of religion, which I'm pretty attached to. Q: So you don't think God can help us? A: As positive or protective functions, yes, gods help us. On the other hand, Mara is also called the Devil King of the Sixth Heaven, so he can also be considered a god. But I believe the best help we ever got from God was when Buddha was sitting under the bo tree and might have decided not to teach the Truth he had Enlightened to if Brahma had not said some people would be able to understand. There are other stories where gods and humans interact, but gods only help us on a fairly gross, physical level and as understanding develops more, we are on our own. Only right understanding will save us... not praying for divine intervention or relying on rites and rituals. For the most part, I think we are insignificant to the beings in other planes but you might like to be on the safe side and extend metta, but not with any expectation of reward or them saving you from yourself. Buddha said to "Be a lamp (or island) unto yourself; work out your own salvation with diligence." Q: You're talking about just doing things for their own sake without being attached to the outcome, letting go? A: Yes, even to talking about wanting and trying to develop right understanding. What's done is done and what happens next depends on different causes and conditions that are beyond our control. At the same time, we can't be nihilistic and just give up or think it doesn't matter what we do. It's about non-attachment or freedom and the ultimate freedom is Nibbana, the Unconditioned. I can't really tell you about Nibbana because I haven't experienced it, so I can only talk about ideas. I accept it on faith because everything else Buddha taught seems right to me as far as I understand it, even the things I haven't wanted to be true. In fact, everything I talk about is just my understanding and I'm pretty ignorant. There's a saying that "the truth can only be shared and understood between Buddhas" or Awakened Ones. Ethically, Nibbana is freedom from what we call the three akusala roots that play the biggest part in our lives: moha, dosa and lobha. Akusala means something like unwholesome or unskillful as opposed to kusala or what we might call good, skillful. Moha is ignorance or not seeing what is true, being in the dark. Lobha is desire or greed. Dosa is dislike, aversion or anger. These things are not us even though we say things like 'I am angry'. Anger is angry. Why do we want to identify that as who we are? These are the three main roots we've been all tangled up in since beginningless time and it takes a lot patience to get out of the mess. For most of us, the saying that "they've lived in hell so long they've come to think of it as playing in a garden" applies. Metaphysically, Nibbana is freedom from suffering or sorrow. This is what Buddha meant when he said he only taught "dukkha and the cessation of dukkha." It might help to think of dukkha as imperfection. It involves the idea that there is constant change or flux... what we call anicca, impermanence. Anicca tells us that everything arises and falls away again, never to return. No single moment or thing is ever the same as another... snowflakes. If you just think about physics, you know that things aren't really the way we are used to thinking about them, but are constantly changing, the same as us. We separate things out of this flux and imagine that they are lasting people or things and in the conventional or conceptual sense, this is true and helps us get along in society but it hides the eventfulness or anicca and we start believing that's the whole truth. You might think rebirth is only about a whole life-time from conception to death, but really, our whole life is only as long as a single moment of consciousness. The whole world is only that long and the kind of world it is depends on the type of consciousness... whether it is a world of sound or taste or any other sense. The next moment, it's different. We talk about being reborn in different planes, but can also think of them as being different mind states and see how we make our own heaven or hell as we go thru a single day. We react to things with joy and we're in heaven. We justify rudeness or war and are more concerned with getting what we want than who we might hurt and we act like animals or people in hell. But if we catch ourselves thinking or feeling certain ways, maybe we can see how we got there. We can say, "there's anger and that's not really me, I don't have to keep feeding it and make it worse". What we see as the continuity of a life or 'you', is what is carried along from each moment to the next, accumulations... the past feeding the present feeding the future. Whether it is the life cycle of a universe, which is something like 37,000 million years, or a human life-time, a sub-atomic particle or a thought moment, what follows, the reborn thing, is 'the same yet another'... like the past, present and future are all Time. If we ignore the magnitudes of the events, we can see the process is the same. 21734 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment RobM, I was getting "drowned", after a moment of desperate struggle, felt exceedingly comfortable in lukewarm water. Felt very light and floating, in an embryonic form, there were thoughts, but my material form was not there. I was seeing things below as I was floating above. Even though I use the word 'I' it seems illogical. Yes it must have been some type of perception, without a self. Their was a feeling of indifference, sort of equanimity, neither sad nor happy. I think I saw my friends speaking to my mother, that must have been ' imagination', it happened in a place far away from my home. There was no feeling of having crossed over... it is still fresh in my mind and difficult to say exactly how all that was... One thing I am sure is that in death it is the first few seconds that is difficult, the knowing that it is the end..and after that it is extremely comfortable, very silent, calm and serene. The boarder between this life and the next is entwined, just turning over... There is a lot of sense , in what you have said Rob. Thank you. with metta, Yasalalaka 21735 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Sukin, Thanks for your reply. I disagreed with all of it, but don't be alarmed. We don't need to hash out every point. Suffice it to say, as a student of Theravada, I think we should respect the entire 8-fold path. I know some people consider that we need to practice only one aspect of the path, and that is fine with me. One is better than none. Larry 21736 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, Thanks for your comments on jhana. Very good. But don't be discouraged if an idea isn't well received. The flow of thoughts here is so torrential, one is as good as another. Larry 21737 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Larry, :-)At first glance I read 'disagreed' as 'agreed'. But I guess it just has something to do with expectations and mana. While I was replying to Smallchap yesterday, the thought about different people having different strengths came to my mind. I thought that some people had more energy, some more concentration etc. and I was lead to the conclusion that maybe this lead to a difference in how each person approached the eightfold path. I also started to comment on it, but then I remembered about satipatthana and how it was the only way (unless of course you disagree). That this did not involve a deliberate development of any aspect in particular, but the fact of gaining familarity with all the objects of consciousness through the six doorways. So I deleted that part of my post. I think it is one thing to see the value of kusala and the danger of akusala, and another, that we can somehow do something to gain the former and lessen the latter. I can only see that we can in the conventional sense, because of some thought motivation perform some *action*, like giving, restraining from lying etc. but a particular quality of the citta cannot be made to manifest. And if there are conditions for akusala, akusala *will* arise. I think the idea of 'self' developing kusala, *hides* what actually goes on. In the end we only deceive ourselves. But I agree to some extent with you on this, "The flow of thoughts here is so torrential, one is as good as another." I have thought along similar lines too, at least my own thoughts are mostlty extrapolations. :-) Best, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sukin, > > Thanks for your reply. I disagreed with all of it, but don't be alarmed. > We don't need to hash out every point. Suffice it to say, as a student > of Theravada, I think we should respect the entire 8-fold path. I know > some people consider that we need to practice only one aspect of the > path, and that is fine with me. One is better than none. > > Larry 21738 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment Hi Howard, I love it when you are right! Any suggestions on how to resolve this? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 4/28/03 11:28:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > > > >It is not some "thing", some "one", or some entity which does > > something. It > > >is the *doing*. Vi~n~nana is knowing an object, rather than > > some "thing" > > >which knows. It is an occurrence, an event. I am uneasy with agent > > >terminology, though it is commonly used by many abhidhammikas. I > > think it can > > >be seriously misleading. > > > > Taken out of context, almost any term can be misleading. I think > > that we have to look at all three parts of the definition together > > to put the term "agent" into perspective. If we just look at the > > first part of the definition (activity), one is left with the > > question, "If citta is only an activity, then what/who performs this > > activity?" The answer is in the second part of the definition; it is > > the citta itself that performs the activity. In other words, citta > > is the action and it is the doer of the action. In my mind, the > > concept of "doer of action" might be included in the definition > > of "agent" (but I admit it is not a clear inclusion). > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that the answer "it is the citta itself that performs the > activity. In other words, citta is the action and it is the doer of the > action" is a wrong answer. I think the right answer is that there is the > doing, but no doer. There is no doer of the deed. > > > > 'Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found. > > The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there. > > Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it. > > The path is, but no traveller on it is seen. > > > > (Vis.M. XVI) > > > People want a doer, they crave a doer, they cling to a doer. But there > is none. > There being no doer, no agent, is at least part of the meaning of 'anatta'. > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Comments? > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) > > > > > ============================ > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > > > > 21739 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Sukin: In a message dated 4/27/03 10:55:29 PM, sukin@k... writes: << I am not sure about this, whether samma samadhi of jhana is the result of progressive detachment of the same kind as that of vipassana. In the latter it is through knowing conditioned reality as they are, as not self. But it seems to me that jhana is very much still with the 'self' intact. However I do know that in jhana practitioners, the anusya is still there. And with change of conditions, such as rebirth under a different environment, the kilesas will manifest. Regarding whether if Buddha used jhana as a vehicle, again I have doubts. I do know that he did practice jhana in previous lives, so it is not unexpected that he was attracted to the practice in his last life as well. But what is more important, a practice aimed at a future result of which there is no promise of maintaining or understanding of a reality now? There can be noticeable degrees of detachment even at the most basic level, and this accumulates too. Besides, finally there is no other way than 'satipatthana' which can lead to enlightenment. So wouldn't it be far better to develop a habit of understanding reality wherever, whenever than to try to develop something which will ultimately require this same path to be proof of benefit? Between accumulations for satipatthana and jhana, what would you choose? Also the very thought about systematic development aimed at future result ie. the idea of *using* jhana to develop wisdom, seems like silabattaparamasa to me!? Btw, I think looking from outside, satipatthana seems like the more time consuming way, as it does not have a method and signposts to guide one's path. So I don't think that members of dsg think of getting it in just one lifetime. But maybe you were only kidding.:-)>> %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: My good friend Sukin, I believe there are clearly a number of classic misconceptions revealed in your otherwise thoughtful post. Jhana (ecstasy) are the symptoms of absorption, they are not actually something different from absorption. They are the "sign posts" you allude to in your closing argument. Without the various manifestation of ecstasy, how does one know at what place one is at in absorption? How can there be different kinds of "detachment?" There is only one detachment, it is the letting go, the not grasping at sensory experience. How can one enter into absorption while retaining grasping and aversion? One cannot of course. This holds true for a self. Absorption is among other things the letting go of self as well. When there is no grasping, there is no accumulation. What you may also not realize is insight (vipassana) requires absorption. This may create some debate here, but it is clear to me, that one cannot see things as they are while grasping at concept and perception. The construct as I have experienced it is, there are stages of absorption, which are characterized by a series of "pleasant un-arising sensation" Potthapada Sutta, DN. 9-17. Jhana 4/5 is characterized by equanimity. Equanimity is characterized by the cessation of grasping and aversion, with the end of grasping and aversion comes the end of the thinking processes, what the Zen practitioners call no-mind, emptiness, no-thought (Bodhidharma, Hue Ning, etc.) These methods of description are in my experience the same as what the Pali canon calls purity and stainlessness. In the condition of no-thought insight "emerges." Without the suspension of the thought processes there is no insight (vipassana). There is no "understanding reality" without insight, which requires no-thought, which requires no grasping, which requires absorption, which is characterized by ecstasy (jhana). It is most definitely possible to gain enlightenment in a single lifetime, one need only to believe it is possible, and apply one's self to that effort, with that intention, and you cannot fail. Best to you, layman Jeff 21740 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment Hi, Rob - In a message dated 4/28/03 9:04:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I love it when you are right! > > Any suggestions on how to resolve this? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's just something I guess we'll have to live with!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21741 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Sukin, I agree different people have different accumulations, inclinations, and abilities, and I also agree that satipatthana is the only way. Even though satipatthana is the only way there are many different ways of practicing satipatthana. It is interesting in the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta Commentary the four foundations are divided according to temperament and inclination as for the dull witted man pursuing quietude, the keen witted man pursuing quietude, the dull witted man pursuing insight, and the keen witted man pursuing insight. Anapanasati, however, encompasses all four. So there are different ways of looking at it and going about it. The Buddha didn't say everyone has to contemplate corpses but he did say the only way is mindfulness and clear comprehension. Larry 21742 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:01pm Subject: anapanasati sutta Dear Mike and Sukin, you were discussing and quoting from this sutta, so I thought I will repeat something I wrote before: As we read in the Intro, the sutta was spoken near Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery. The great disciples were present. There were arahats, non-returners, once-returners, sotapannas. Moreover those who were developing the four satipatthanas, and the factors leading to enlightenment, who were developing metta and other meditation subjects and also mindfulness on breathing. The Invitation ceremony was put off for one month until the Komudi (Whi te water lily) festival, so that the monks could more fully develop excellent qualities. The Co. explains why the Buddha wanted to wait for the Komudi festival in Savatthi, to have the Invitation ceremony, the pavarana. He waited because otherwise the bhikkhus would go away and travel all over Savatthi. The Buddha showed his great compassion because he thought of the bhikkhus who were still weak in samatha and vipassana and who would not be able to have excellent attainments. He considered the difficulty of finding lodgings if the monks would go traveling. The elders (of sixty rainy seasons) were allowed to take lodgings first and in that case other monks would have trouble finding them. Since the Buddha wanted to stay near Savatthi, there would not be such worry and the monks could further develop samatha and vipassana and reach distinctions. We then read as you quoted from the sutta, about the different meditation subjects. "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative joy. . . of equanimity. . . of the meditation of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - such Bhikkhus are there in this Sangha of Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the development of mindfulness of breathing. ******* The Co explains that all these were meditation subjects the monks were very interested in. In the sutta where it is stated: they dwell devoted to the four foundations of mindfulness... the noble eightfold Path, there is reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. The Co explains about the factors of enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, that these are lokiya (not lokuttara, that is, those arising when enlightenment is attained) and lokuttara. It states that they are lokiya for the monks who develop vipassana, insight. In the sutta we read about the perception of impermanence. The Co explains that here insight, vipassana, is meant by sa~n~naa, perception. N: we can compare here the use of the word sanna: we find in the texts at times atta-sanna, perception of self, and anatta-sanna, perception of non-self. We read in the Co. that the monks were very interested in anapana sati. That is why the Buddha dealt with the other meditation subjects in short, but with mindfulness of breathing in detail. The Co now refers to the Visuddhimagga for details about this subject. ***** After this the Co deals with seeing the body in the body etc. I translated from the Co I have in Thai. And I used the Visuddhimagga on all the tetrads. (To be found under U.P. I think) We have to consider: to whom was this sutta addressed. This is a long series (good for a rainy day), ending with the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. Nina. 21743 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing only sees. Dear Sir Mike, op 27-04-2003 02:24 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > >> Nina: >> Seeing just sees, it directly experiences visible object impinging >> on the eye-base. It does not need vitakka and vicara to experience the >> object. > > Understood. > >> The other cittas of the sense-door process do not have the eyebase >> as the physical base, vatthu, they do not see, they need vitakka and >> vicara in order to experience visible object. > > I don't understand this. When you say, "other cittas of the sense-door > process", are you referring to vi~n~naa.nas other than seeing-consciousness? > Why would they 'need...to experience visible object'? In the eye-door process there are other cittas that also experience visible object, but they do not see. I am going to write more in my eries on Kreang Kacang. Seeing is accompanbied by just the seven universals, but the other cittas in taht process are accompanied by more than these seven. Just a quote now: Nina. 21744 From: robmoult Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing only sees. Hi Mike / Nina, Last Sunday, we discussed this point in some detail in my Abhidhamma class. Let me paraphrase my understanding into point form: - In a sense-door citta process, there are 17 cittas; the fifth in the sequence is the "seeing consciousness" (1-3 are bhavanga, 4 is adverting, 6 is receiving, etc.) - Every citta has a base of rupa that supports it. In the case of the seeing consciousness citta, the base is the eye-base (I believe that this implies that the seeing consciousnes arises at the back of the retina), the remaining 16 cittas in the sense door citta process all have the mind-base (sometimes called heart-base) as support. - When a citta accesses it's object, it does so through the supporting base. - In the case of the seeing consciousness citta, the visible object is "right there" in front of the citta. There is no need for the cetasiaka vitakka "to provide an introduction to the object" and there is no need for the cetasika vicara to "sustain connection with the object". The seeing consciousness citta is the only citta in the sense door citta process that "directly" touches the rupa (visible object); the subsequent cittas in the same sense door citta process only access a mental image (through the mind-base). - In the case of the remaining 16 cittas, the object must be accessed through the mind-base. For these cittas, the object is a mental image. This is a "less direct" connection than occurs with the seeing consciousness, so there is a need for the cetasiaka vitakka "to provide an introduction to the object" and there is a need for the cetasika vicara to "sustain connection with the object". - When the concentrated mind moves from the first jhana to the second jhana, the object of concentration is "right there" in the mind-base and therefore there is no need for the cetasiaka vitakka "to provide an introduction to the object" (if we are using the four jhana counting system, there is no need for the cetasika vicara either at this point; if we are using the five jhana counting system, we need one more stage of jhana to get rid of the cetasika vicara). Nina, please correct any misunderstandings of mine. Mike, does this help or does it confuse things further? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sir Mike, > op 27-04-2003 02:24 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > > > >> Nina: > >> Seeing just sees, it directly experiences visible object impinging > >> on the eye-base. It does not need vitakka and vicara to experience the > >> object. > > > > Understood. > > > >> The other cittas of the sense-door process do not have the eyebase > >> as the physical base, vatthu, they do not see, they need vitakka and > >> vicara in order to experience visible object. > > > > I don't understand this. When you say, "other cittas of the sense-door > > process", are you referring to vi~n~naa.nas other than seeing- consciousness? > > Why would they 'need...to experience visible object'? > In the eye-door process there are other cittas that also experience visible > object, but they do not see. I am going to write more in my eries on Kreang > Kacang. Seeing is accompanbied by just the seven universals, but the other > cittas in taht process are accompanied by more than these seven. Just a > quote now: > consciousness) which has the function of adverting to the object through the > eye-door. It is the first citta of that process and it is accompanied by the > universals and in addition by applied thinking, sustained thinking and > determination (adhimokkha). Determination is manifested as decisiveness with > regard to the object, it assists the citta in cognizing the object. > Decisiveness is the opposite of doubt, it cannot arise together with doubt. > There must be determination with regard to the object that impinges on one > of the senses so that the sense-door process can begin and one of the > sense-cognitions can arise. > The sense-cognition which is seeing-consciousness experiences visible object > through the eye-door, and after it has fallen away, it is succeeded by other > vipåkacittas which are accompanied by the same ten cetasikas. After > seeing-consciousnessnas fallen away receiving-consciousness, > sampaìicchana-citta, arises, a vipåkacitta that receives the object. This > citta experiences visible object but it does not see. It needs, in addition > to the universals, the three cetasikas of applied thinking, sustained > thinking and determination. After it has fallen away, it is succeeded by > another vipåkacitta, the investigating-consciousness, santíraùa- citta, which > investigates the object, just for an extremely short moment. This citta > needs the same ten cetasikas as the preceding one, it needs, apart from the > Universals, applied thinking which strikes the object, sustained thinking > and determination, so that it can perform its function of investigating. > This citta is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta, > a kiriyacitta which is accompanied in addition by energy, viriya cetasika, > thus by eleven cetasikas. The determining consciousness determines the > object, and after that it is succeeded by seven javana cittas (impulsion) > which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. The > determining-consciousness, by performing its function for an extremely short > moment paves the way for the javana-cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas, > which succeed it. > > Nina. 21745 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Excellent discourse on jhana my good friend Yasalalaka, very well done. Would you mind posting it to the Jhana Support Group? I think they would all appreciate it very much. Group home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas Group email address: Jhanas@yahoogroups.com To subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com best to you, layman Jeff 21746 From: smallchap Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > The Parinnibbåna of the Arahat who is a Layman, continued. > > ³Well then, revered Någasena, the peaceful state of > arahantship is given up > if the life of him who attains it in this manner is carried > away.² > ³Unequal [4] , sire, are the attributes of a householder. The > attributes > being unequal, it is owing to the weakness of his attributes > that a > householder who has attained arahanship either goes forth or > attains final > nibbåna on that very day. This is not a defect in arahantship, > sire, this is > a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness > of the > attributes. It is sire, as the food that guards the lifespan > and protects > the life of all beings yet carries away the life of him whose > stomach is out > of order and who has a sluggish and weak digestion, because it > is not > properly digested. This, sire, is not a defect in the food, > this is a defect > in the stomach, namely a weakness in its heat. Even so, sire, > the attributes > being unequal, it is owing to the weakness of his attributes > that a > householder who has attained arahantship either goes forth or > attains final > nibbåna on that very day. This is not a defect in arahantship, > sire, this is > a defect in the householder¹s attributes, namely the weakness > of the > attributes. Or, sire, as a heavy stone may be put on top of a > small stalk of > grass which in its weakness is broken and collapses, even so, > sire, the > householder who has attained arahanship (but) being unable to > sustain > arahantship because of that attribute (of weakness) either > goes forth or > attains final nibbåna on that very day. Or, sire, as a man who > is feeble and > weak, of lowly birth and of little merit, comes to naught and > to ruin the > moment he has acquired a great and mighty kingdom, falters and > is unable to > sustain the authority, even so, sire, the householder who has > attained > arahantship is unable to sustain arahantship because of that > attribute (of > weakness), and for that reason he either goes forth or attains > final nibbåna > on that very day.² > ³It is good, revered Någasena; so it is, therefore do I accept > it.² > > ****** > Footnote > 4 The state of a layman cannot be compared to the monk¹s > state, it is not > equal to it. I find this interesting passage in the Dhammapada Commentery (Buddhist Legends, Bk 24, 5): "...At the conclusion of the lesson Khema was established in Arahatship; the multitude also profited by the lesson. "Said the Teacher to the King, "Great King, Khema ought either to retire from the world or to pass into Nibbana." The King replied, "Reverend Sir, admit her to the Order; as for Nibbana, never!" She retired from the world and became one of the Teacher's foremost famale disciple in wisdom."{end quote} You may wish to note that King Suddhodana, the father of the Buddha, lived for seven days after he attained Arahatship before passing into parinibbana. smallchap 21747 From: Sarah Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Jeff, --- macdocaz1@a... wrote: > > Jeff: > The point that I am trying to make is > enlightenment is a natural innate ability that we all have, and there > has > never been a time during the age of humans when Buddhas have not been on > this > Earth. We need only accept that everyone, no matter how degraded, can > become > enlightened in this lifetime, and there isn't just one great Buddha out > there, but there are many living Buddhas who can guide use to > enlightenment. ..... S:I’d be interested in reading any (Pali Canon) textual references for any of these comments. ..... > But, when we get all obsessed with a dead Buddha who lived 2,000 or > 2,500 > years ago, we lose sight of the Buddhas who are right here, right now > available to guide us to enlightenment. ..... S:Again, perhaps you’d point out the references from the Tipitaka or ancient Pali commentaries for these comments. ..... > Jeff: > Actually, I believe the concern or fear that jhana is something one can > or > could become attached to is essentially erroneous, because it is clearly > > stated in the Potthapada Sutta DN. 9-17 "a true but subtle perception of > > delight and happiness, born of detachment." If jhana is born from > detachment, then how can one become attached to it? ..... S:Attachment can be attached to anything (except nibbana), including the purest of mental states. That’s why many in the Buddha’s time who had attained the highest jhanas were not interested in hearing his teachings or developing insight. Only the arahant has eradicated the very refined attachment to bhava (existence/becoming) for example. Btw, I certainly haven’t seen anyone on DSG suggest anything remotely ‘evil’ about jhanas as you suggested in another post or ‘fear’ as you suggest here. I think everyone here agrees that they are very, very highly developed wholesome states. I understand your definition is ‘broader’ than that in the texts (as in OB experiences during sleep or near-death experiences), but here we are interested in referring to such states and experiences as we understand them to have been taught by the Buddha and recorded in the Tipitaka. I expect the Starkids would have broader definitions too of certain special experiences, but they also have to work within the limits set here (even the eight year olds!!), however much they might protest;-) ..... > Jeff: > Here my good friend Sukin, I completely agree with you. While sila > (ethical > conduct) is of course essential, sila cannot be perfect until panna > (wisdom) > arises, so to say one has to have perfect ethical conduct before wisdom > will > arise, are completely missing the understanding that it is only through > wisdom and insight and equanimity that one could ever lead a truly > ethical > life. > > Good work Sukin. Best regards to all, ..... S:We’re all in some agreement here and it’s always nice to end on this note and to see your good wishes;-) With metta, Sarah ===== 21748 From: Date: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Yasalalaka and Rob M :-) In a message dated 4/28/03 8:45:59 AM, rob.moult@j... writes: << --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > Have any of you, had a near death experience ? I had, and I cannot > explain it without making people misunderstand the situation. When > you say that there was a bright light, it is not the light that > emanates from an electric bulb of say 100 or more watts. It is not > the light like the day-light. It is a light WITHOUT a light, > immaculately clear, a soothing light, not bright, and blinding, > without shadows, submerging you with a very comfortable feeling . A > seeing without eyes …… See the difficulty. Even all that does not > really explain what I experienced. I heard in a Dhamma talk that the "bright light" of near death experiences is simply the direct perception of citta (mind). A direct perception of the mind without a self attached. From a medical perspective (I am not a doctor), the Orientation Association Area (OAA) in the left-parietal lobe is normally one of the most active portions of the brain. The OAA takes incoming data from the senses and puts it into context by creating an artificial "self" at the centre. When blood flow to this portion of the brain is significantly reduced (involuntarily as in near death experiences, or voluntarily as in deep meditation / prayer), and the sense of self is supressed. Perhaps in your near death experience you had a direct experience of anatta. >> %%%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Hello my good friend, Yasalalaka, chances are, the medical science explanation probably didn't satisfy you much. I have had several "near death" experiences as well. Some of them came as a consequence of recalling a past lifetime in what the Buddha described in Dependent Origination as working out the "past life linking" to a future lifetime. A cording to the Visuddhimagga, what happens when one recalls a previous lifetime and the whole life is played out, then the death is also played out, in so doing the future life linking is supposed to be revealed. Typically in my lifetime recollections, each lifetime ended with a white light experience along with the future life linking. I assume it would be true for most people at death. And, since many people reporting near death experiences, report a white light experience, there may be some truth to this. So, why do at least some lifetimes end with a white light experience? I believe Rob M :-) may be onto something when he quoted the dharma talk, "the 'bright light' of near death experiences (are) simply the direct perception of citta (mind)." Or to put it another way, it maybe the experience of the "Sphere of Infinite Consciousness," at least that was what it seemed like to me, because the experience wasn't just light, there was also the "experience" of pervasive consciousness as well. Perhaps, Yasalalaka, if you recall you may have had more than the experience of a "white light" but also the experience of consciousness. Many who report the "white light experience" also report having had a visitation by God or Christ or something like that. I find the topic of near death experiences an interesting topic, because it seems to fits into the broad category of jhana. Best to you, layman Jeff 21749 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 0:20am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Dear Yasalalaka, Thanks for this excellent post. It opens up so many topics for discussion. When you were talking about how hard it is to describe experiences, you mentioned your own near-death experience: -------------- > It is a light WITHOUT a light, immaculately clear, a soothing light, not bright, and blinding, without shadows, submerging you with a very comfortable feeling . A seeing without eyes …… See the difficulty. Even all that does not really explain what I experienced. > --------------------- Back in the nineteen-sixties and seventies, experiences like these, mostly induced by psychedelic drugs, brought Eastern religion into Western fashion. Countless books were written to describe the authors' experiences under drugs and during meditation. People like myself, assumed that Buddhism was all about having extrasensory ("far out, man") experiences without the aid of drugs. I'm sure you will agree that this is a totally wrong perception and also, that it is very hard to shift. What an enormous relief it is, to know that the Dhamma is about right understanding here and now. There is no need to become a wonderful person, no need for wonderful experiences, just understand the realities that exist in this, present, moment. Kind regards Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yasalalaka" wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, and all, > > 21750 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Topics of Conversation (Re: the Bogor group) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, V: > > Thanks for this message and the reference. I appreciate it!! > > Like I said earlier, I see that the five aggregates as collections of > all conditioned, fabricated things/phenomena/situations. For > instances, I see that grief belongs to the feeling aggregate, that > not getting what is wanted, separation from the loved, and being with > the unloved belong to the formations aggregate. I also see that > concepts, thoughts, ideas belongs to the formations aggregate. That > is just how I would classify these phenomena using the schema of the > five aggregates. I would not disagree with the classifications in > Nyantiloka's dictionary. However, I would like to emphasize and > reiterate that the classification of the five aggregates include the > whole range of conditioned, fabricated things or phenomena or > situations. This classification, as I tend to see it, is very > general. ..... S: Thanks, Victor. At least we’ve clearly established where we have a different understanding and where we’re coming from when we discuss the aggregates. I think this also clarifies other comments in the ‘computer thread’ you’ve had with others any your frustration with discussions on paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities). You mention you don’t disagree with Nyantiloka’s classifications in the dictionary (which are just as I understand them in the texts- strictly referring to rupas, cittas and cetasikas), but you also add all kinds of concepts as well, especially under sankhara khandha. I wonder if this is because of certain translations of terms, eg ‘formations’ and so on or whether you have any other basis for the inclusion of all concepts, thoughts, ideas, situations? ..... V: > I would also classify marriage to the formations aggregate. To me, > it is not much classifying what to which aggregate. It is to see > that, formations, or its special instance, marriage, is impermanent, > dukkha, not self. ..... S: In SN, khandhasamyutta, 56 (4) Phases of the Cinging Aggregates, (B.Bodhi transl), we read: *** “....And what, bhikkhus, is form? the four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements (derived rupas)..... .....And what, bhikkhus, is feeling? There are these six classes of feeling: feeling born of eye-contact.......mind-contact... ......And what, bhikkhus, is perception? there are these six kinds of perception: perception of forms...sounds....odours..mental phenomena.... .......And what, bhikkhus, are volitional formations? there are these six kinds of volition*: volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding tactile objects, volition regarding mental phenomena. These are called volitional formations......” *** *BB’s footnote: “The fact that there is a difference between the name of the aggregate (sa”nkhaarakkhandha) and the term of definition (sa~ncetana) suggests that this aggregate has a wider compass than the others. In the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the commentaries, the sankharakhandha is treated as an “umbrella category” for classifying all mental factors other than feeling and perception . Volition is mentioned only as the most important factor in this aggregate, not as its exclusive constituent.” ..... V: > Thanks again for this message and the reference. Your feedback is > much appreciated. ..... S: Likewise. I’m happy to leave it on the basis that we’ve clarified where misunderstandings and different use of terminology may occur. I think this has been helpful and we can continue to happily disagree on our interpretations of the suttas;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 21751 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:00am Subject: Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Jeff, I do not wish to risk lowering the quality of discussions that otherwise goes on here with my uninformed views. Beside my habit of making generalizations is still quite strong. I have also noticed the quick reacti= on to defend my position when threatened. It is almost like I frantically search for files from amongst different drawers.:-/ But this is where I am and can work from.... I have a fairly good idea of what satipatthana is about, but I know almost nothing about jhana. I hope what I have remarked about outer and inner conditions for jhana practice is only misconception, and that you, Howard and Larry are actually reaping the fruits of jhana. I say this = also because even if this is the case, it does not make any difference in my understanding of the importance of satipatthana as a practice involving no formal sitting nor prior accumulations of concentration. More comments following yours: > Jeff: > How can there be different kinds of "detachment?" There is only one > detachment, it is the letting go, the not grasping at sensory experience. > How can one enter into absorption while retaining grasping and aversion? One > cannot of course. This holds true for a self. Absorption is among other > things the letting go of self as well. When there is no grasping, there = is > no accumulation. Sukin: I can think of two different kinds of ¡¥detachment¡¦, tell me which one if = any, fits with the practice of jhana. On the one hand there is recognition = of akusala states and choosing to reject it. On the other, there is just th= e recognition of an arising dhamma, knowing that it is conditioned and anatta. In the first case there is a preference for kusala. In the second there is no such discrimination, though following moments may make such value judgments. In the first case, the detachment is from judging akusala as undesirable. In the second, it is panna which sees the true nature of the phenomena, by its very nature, does not cling. After all, cling to what if all is evanescent and not-self? In the first case there is= movement along the path towards more refined states or at least dwelling in the existent state, in the second the next moment may be kusala, but it does not involve the process of ¡¥becoming¡¦. I feel the first is still the stuff of which samsara is made; the second ha= s the taste of ¡§release¡¨. > What you may also not realize is insight (vipassana) requires absorption. > This may create some debate here, but it is clear to me, that one cannot see > things as they are while grasping at concept and perception. The construct > as I have experienced it is, there are stages of absorption, which are > characterized by a series of "pleasant un-arising sensation" Potthapada > Sutta, DN. 9-17. Jhana 4/5 is characterized by equanimity. Equanimity is > characterized by the cessation of grasping and aversion, with the end of > grasping and aversion comes the end of the thinking processes, what the Zen > practitioners call no-mind, emptiness, no-thought (Bodhidharma, Hue Ning, > etc.) These methods of description are in my experience the same as what the > Pali canon calls purity and stainlessness. In the condition of no- thought > insight "emerges." > > Without the suspension of the thought processes there is no insight > (vipassana). There is no "understanding reality" without insight, which > requires no-thought, which requires no grasping, which requires absorption, > which is characterized by ecstasy (jhana). I do know that at the moment of penetrating the three characteristics, there must be a fairly high level of momentary concentration. Also there may be a causal relation between different mind states in different process leading to the corresponding levels of vipassana nana, I am not sure about this though. However from the above it seems to me that you are talking about any moment of mindfulness of a reality, that it can only = take place if one trains oneself to concentrate. And I think you imply that= in such a case, the jhana practitioner has a better chance for doing this. = But this is not how I understand the development of satipatthana to be. The three characteristic is not penetrated because of concentration, but from growing in understanding about the nature of dhammas. First the gross characteristics are known, then the element nature, then distinguishing between nama and rupa and in between other behaviors and characteristics. For example, can one see the rise and fall of seeing consciousness, if one has not come to clearly distinguish it from visible object? Do you see concentration as an instrument which pierces through ignorance, or do you see ignorance as being slowly made thin by the power of sati and panna? > It is most definitely possible to gain enlightenment in a single lifetime= , > one need only to believe it is possible, and apply one's self to that effort, > with that intention, and you cannot fail. As I become more and more familiar with my own mind states seeing the notoriety of ignorance and other accumulated akusala, at this point I am also seeing more and more what it means by the fact that it takes incalculable years to become enlightened. ƒ¼ Await your response. Metta, Sukin 21752 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:17am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Ken, :-) I was thinking about you yesterday, and this morning I was thinking along the same lines as what you expressed here, though I was not thinking particularly about Yasalalaka's experience. I was thinking about our friend Sarah (hope you don't mind Sarah), that she too has psychic experiences and healing powers, but makes no big deal of it. That she thinks that this has nothing to do with the development of the path. I think it is only panna which can see this; here I am referring to Sarah's. :-) Nice to hear your voice after so long Ken. Best wishes, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Yasalalaka, > > Thanks for this excellent post. It opens up so many > topics for discussion. When you were talking about how > hard it is to describe experiences, you mentioned your > own near-death experience: 21753 From: yasalalaka Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Sukin, My post mentioned that experience to answer Sarah, when she asked me about the appropriateness of a word when I wrote about the Buddha's insight. I was thinking what example I could quote to say the inadequacy of words in describing some experience and just mentioned that ..The intention was not to draw attention to myself or pampering my ego...! Sorry if I had given that impression. with metta, Yasalalaka 21754 From: Sukinderpal Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi Yasalalaka, No, I wasn't thinking in those terms at all, and like I said I wasn't particularly thinking about you. And the point is not about ego etc. it is about thinking that special states similar to this one, but during other times, that they were significant with regard to accumulations for practice. I understand your point and reason for mentioning your experience. I responded to Ken, because I was just thinking about him yesterday, wondering why he hasn't written, and then I see that he was thinking along the same lines as I was, about this. I didn't think you were trying to draw attention to yourself! Yes, but I did think that you might have thought that it was otherwise significant in terms that *this* was something to do with the perception of not-self. Which I think it doesn't. Of course I now probably go against what Rob M. said. :-( Sukin. -----Original Message----- From: yasalalaka [mailto:charlesperera@h...] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 3:43 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Sukin, My post mentioned that experience to answer Sarah, when she asked me about the appropriateness of a word when I wrote about the Buddha's insight. I was thinking what example I could quote to say the inadequacy of words in describing some experience and just mentioned that ..The intention was not to draw attention to myself or pampering my ego...! Sorry if I had given that impression. with metta, Yasalalaka 21755 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 3:06am Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3 K Ratchada (Q): Regarding the understanding of the distinction (demarkation) of nama and rupa [during nama-rupapariccheda~na~na], at the time of sati being aware of, say, nama, is this already considered distinction (the first vippassana~na~na)? Is pa~n~na able tell the attributes of nama from that of rupa that is the object of the vippassana ~na~na? A Sujin: It's not the the matters of knowing the name that can address this questions. A skillful person is steadfast of being honest to know whether or not at this moment of, say, seeing, he is able to experience realities as they truely are. At the moment of seeing, there are both seeing and what is being seen. And both now quickly have fallen away. Similarly, at the moment of hearing, there is hearing and what is being heard. If we are to experience the realities, we will experience the characteristics of hearing that it is the element that ``knows'' an object and what is heard as the element that is being experienced. All of these happen in daily, ordinary life. However, for beginners, the arising of sati may be very far apart. For example, sati may [have more tendency to] arise at certain moments of hearing but not seeing. One important thing to note is that between the moments of satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking. If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of dhamma, as usual, only more profoundly with finer detail. Vipassana ~na~na understands the characteristics of thinking that it is different from seeing, hearing etc. What it means by demarkation (distinction) of nama and rupa is that no matter what the dhamma is, it is always an element. Nama element always appear as mentality and never as materiality, penetrates the nama dhamma in the nama-rupa pariccheda ~na~na it cannot (does not) avoid experiencing the object at that moment without discrimination. At that moment, through the mind-door pa~n~na understands clearly the nature of mentality and materiality. Even for thinking (contemplating), vipassana~na~na can arise to be aware of it and panna can study its characteristics. At the moment of thinking, it is a natural phenomenon; thinking is an element, not self, knowing an object. When vipassana~na~na falls away, that person knows that thinking cannot be controlled because the understanding prior to the arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are different. Furthermore, pa~n~na at the level of vipassana ~na~na cannot choose to experience an element, but it arise due to conditions. 19:15min 21756 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment Hi again Yasalalaka, ps: I just noticed that I said in my original post; "but makes no big deal of it." Wrong choice of words. I think it was this that lead you to feel that I was accusing you of boasting?! My vocabulary is very low, I often write whatever comes to my mind without checking the meaning. Hope you won't mind future occurrences of these?! :-) Sukin. 21757 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:38am Subject: Topics of Conversation (Re: the Bogor group) Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply! Like Jon and Robert K have said earlier, concepts are assembled by mind or formed by citta, and this is how I tend to regard concepts. Since they are formed/assembled, they are subject to change, impermanent, does not last. Likewise for thoughts and ideas. I tend to see concepts, thoughts, and ideas as belonging to the formations aggregate since they are formed/assembled/created by mind. I also tend to see situations such as marriage or relationship or not getting what is wanted or being with unloved also belonging to the formation aggregate since all these situations are formed with volition/intention. Thanks again for your reply!! Your comments and feedback are welcome! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > V: > > > Thanks for this message and the reference. I appreciate it!! > > > > Like I said earlier, I see that the five aggregates as collections of > > all conditioned, fabricated things/phenomena/situations. For > > instances, I see that grief belongs to the feeling aggregate, that > > not getting what is wanted, separation from the loved, and being with > > the unloved belong to the formations aggregate. I also see that > > concepts, thoughts, ideas belongs to the formations aggregate. That > > is just how I would classify these phenomena using the schema of the > > five aggregates. I would not disagree with the classifications in > > Nyantiloka's dictionary. However, I would like to emphasize and > > reiterate that the classification of the five aggregates include the > > whole range of conditioned, fabricated things or phenomena or > > situations. This classification, as I tend to see it, is very > > general. > ..... > S: Thanks, Victor. At least we've clearly established where we have a > different understanding and where we're coming from when we discuss the > aggregates. I think this also clarifies other comments in the `computer > thread' you've had with others any your frustration with discussions on > paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities). > > You mention you don't disagree with Nyantiloka's classifications in the > dictionary (which are just as I understand them in the texts- strictly > referring to rupas, cittas and cetasikas), but you also add all kinds of > concepts as well, especially under sankhara khandha. I wonder if this is > because of certain translations of terms, eg `formations' and so on or > whether you have any other basis for the inclusion of all concepts, > thoughts, ideas, situations? > ..... > V: > I would also classify marriage to the formations aggregate. To me, > > it is not much classifying what to which aggregate. It is to see > > that, formations, or its special instance, marriage, is impermanent, > > dukkha, not self. > ..... > S: In SN, khandhasamyutta, 56 (4) Phases of the Cinging Aggregates, > (B.Bodhi transl), we read: > *** > "....And what, bhikkhus, is form? the four great elements and the form > derived from the four great elements (derived rupas)..... > .....And what, bhikkhus, is feeling? There are these six classes of > feeling: feeling born of eye-contact.......mind-contact... > ......And what, bhikkhus, is perception? there are these six kinds of > perception: perception of forms...sounds....odours..mental phenomena.... > .......And what, bhikkhus, are volitional formations? there are these six > kinds of volition*: volition regarding forms, volition regarding sounds, > volition regarding odours, volition regarding tastes, volition regarding > tactile objects, volition regarding mental phenomena. These are called > volitional formations......" > *** > *BB's footnote: "The fact that there is a difference between the name of > the aggregate (sa"nkhaarakkhandha) and the term of definition (sa~ncetana) > suggests that this aggregate has a wider compass than the others. In the > Abhidhamma Pitaka and the commentaries, the sankharakhandha is treated as > an "umbrella category" for classifying all mental factors > other than feeling and perception . Volition is > mentioned only as the most important factor in this aggregate, not as its > exclusive constituent." > ..... > V: > Thanks again for this message and the reference. Your feedback is > > much appreciated. > ..... > S: Likewise. I'm happy to leave it on the basis that we've clarified where > misunderstandings and different use of terminology may occur. I think this > has been helpful and we can continue to happily disagree on our > interpretations of the suttas;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah 21758 From: Sarah Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 24-26 for comment Hi Howard (& Rob M), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > > >It is not some "thing", some "one", or some entity which does > > something. It > > >is the *doing*. Vi~n~nana is knowing an object, rather than > > some "thing" > > >which knows. It is an occurrence, an event. I am uneasy with agent > > >terminology, though it is commonly used by many abhidhammikas. I > > think it can > > >be seriously misleading. .... I had also found the comments about ‘agent’ and ‘instrument’ taken from B.Bodhi’s summary of the commentary in CMA a little puzzling. ..... > Howard: > I think that the answer "it is the citta itself that performs the > > activity. In other words, citta is the action and it is the doer of the > action" is a wrong answer. I think the right answer is that there is the > > doing, but no doer. There is no doer of the deed. > > > > 'Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found. > > The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there. > > Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it. > > The path is, but no traveller on it is seen. > > > > (Vis.M. XVI) > > > People want a doer, they crave a doer, they cling to a doer. But > there > is none. > There being no doer, no agent, is at least part of the meaning of > 'anatta'. > -------------------------------------------------- These are all good comments as Rob M said and remind of some Dan made before as well. You may not have read the notes I posted from the commentary itself in a fairly recent post, so let me repeat just the part that is relevant : ***** from earlier post: S:In the recently published PTS transl of the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha.... Prologue 2, p7: “...... the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. For a dhamma’s being treated as an agent, by attributing the status of ‘self’ to the particular function of a dhamma, and also its being (treated) in consequence as an instrument, by attributing the state of agent to a group of conascent dhammas, are both taken as a relative manner of speaking. The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc apart from the particular nature of a dhamma........” ***** Not sure if this helps. With metta, Sarah ===== 21759 From: robmoult Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: New Member Intro Hi Vicki, I managed to find a friend who passed me a copy of the Dhamma Talk CD mentioned below. Can I mail it to Mike Nease's address or you can email me your snail maid address. My email address is: rob.moult@j... Looking forward to hearing from you! I am sure that both you and your father will appreciate this CD. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Vicki, > > Welcome! > > I have inserted some comments below. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Vicki Berman" > wrote: > > I would like to introduce myself, my name is Vicki and will start > by telling you a wee bit about myself. Currently I work at a > hospital writing computer programs to analyze the information about > patients. I must be doing something right because we won an award > from a national medical group for one of my reports. I also got an > outstanding staff award for it. I am a middle aged divorced mother > of two teenagers, two dogs, and two cats. I weave and spin when I > have time. I am exploring Buddhism from many angles. I grew up > learning about Zen and Tibetan Buddhism, and I have a friend > teaching me about Nishoren Buddhism. But on to my question. > > ===== > > Wow, what an eclectic mix! > > ===== > > > My father was born in China and has talked a lot about Buddhism > while I grew up. He recently had some heart trouble, and my sister > made a comment that "he wasn't being spiritual enough about his own > death." The rest of us thought it was okay for him to work on life > style changes to help save his life, but this sister had other ideas > about death. Evidently she was "spiritual" about it because she > killed herself in February. She had a beautiful ying-yang pendant > around her neck when she died, and her note said that she would see > us on the other side. > > ===== > > My father recently visited me from Canada (I live in Malaysia). He > has had prostrate cancer for a few years. I passed to him an > excellent Dhamma talk on CD by Ajahn Brahmavamso called "Dealing > with Sickness and Death". Though my father is not a Buddhist, he > found the talk extremely uplifting. I was searching around the house > this morning, but I gave my only copy to my father when he left. I > am going to try and track down another. If I find one, can I send it > by post to Mike Nease (I have his address)? Otherwise, I will let > you know when I have found it and you can email me your snail mail > address. I really think that your father would enjoy this CD. > > I do not understand your sister's message of "see you on the other > side". That sounds quite Christian. Was she a Buddhist? > > ===== > > > My family was shocked at this unexpected tragedy and we are > learning to live with our new reality. (It is suffering as I never > knew suffering existed, we were very attached to her). > > ===== > > You and your family have been given a very important lesson; that > the cause of stress / suffering / dukkha is desire / attachment. It > reminds me of the Gandhabhaka (Bhadraka) Sutta (Sn XLII.11) in which > the Buddha used the death of family members to illustrate this link > between suffering and desire: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-011.html > > ===== > > > So my question is this: What did the Buddha teach about suicide? > I've heard stories of elderly Zen monks passing on, in a state of > total awareness, at a time of their choice, but they were at the end > of their lives anyway, not a healthy, but depressed, person in the > middle of their lives. > > ===== > > As some others have mentioned (recently and in the archive), monks > cannot condone or support suicide. I don't think that the Buddha > talked specifcially about suicide for laypeople, but He did talk a > lot about the importance of the last thought before death. It is > this last thought that determines the next rebirth. If somebody's > last thought was anger (including anger at themselves), they could > be reborn in hell. If their last thought was delusion, they could be > reborn as animals. The Yodhajiva Sutta (Sn XLII.3) is an example of > the Buddha's teaching in this area: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn42-003.html > > Your terms "end of their lives" and "middle of their lives" can be a > little misleading. If there are countless lives already lived and > countless lives yet to live, to put such a focus on the place within > the current existence might be a little "pre-Copernicus" (i.e. earth > is centre of the universe). > > I hope that my comments help you. I hope that they don't sound cold > and analytical at this difficult time. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 21760 From: m. nease Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 6:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati sutta Thanks, Nina--as usual the addition of the commentary enriches the text considerably. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 9:01 PM Subject: [dsg] anapanasati sutta > Dear Mike and Sukin, > you were discussing and quoting from this sutta, so I thought I will repeat > something I wrote before: > As we read in the Intro, the sutta was spoken near Savatthi in the Eastern > Monastery. The great disciples were present. There were arahats, > non-returners, once-returners, sotapannas. Moreover those who were > developing the four satipatthanas, and the factors leading to enlightenment, > who were developing metta and other meditation subjects and also mindfulness > on breathing. > The Invitation ceremony was put off for one month until the Komudi (Whi te > water lily) festival, so that the monks could more fully develop excellent > qualities. > > The Co. explains why the Buddha wanted to wait for the Komudi festival in > Savatthi, to have the Invitation ceremony, the pavarana. He waited because > otherwise the bhikkhus would go away and travel all over Savatthi. The > Buddha showed his great compassion because he thought of the bhikkhus who > were still weak in samatha and vipassana and who would not be able to have > excellent attainments. He considered the difficulty of finding lodgings if > the monks would go traveling. The elders (of sixty rainy seasons) were > allowed to take lodgings first and in that case other monks would have > trouble finding them. Since the Buddha wanted to stay near Savatthi, there > would not be such worry and the monks could further develop samatha and > vipassana and reach distinctions. > We then read as you quoted from the sutta, about the different meditation > subjects. > > > "In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide devoted to the > development of > loving-kindness. . . of compassion. . . of appreciative joy. . . of > equanimity. . . of the meditation > of foulness. . . of the perception of impermanence - - such Bhikkhus > are > there in this Sangha of > Bhikkhus. In this Sangha of Bhikkhus there are Bhikkhus who abide > devoted > to the development > of mindfulness of breathing. > ******* > The Co explains that all these were meditation subjects the monks were very > interested in. In the sutta where it is stated: they dwell devoted to the > four foundations of mindfulness... the noble eightfold Path, there is > reference to the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. The Co explains about > the factors of enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya dhammas, that these are lokiya > (not lokuttara, that is, those arising when enlightenment is attained) and > lokuttara. It states that they are lokiya for the monks who develop > vipassana, insight. > In the sutta we read about the perception of impermanence. The Co explains > that here insight, vipassana, is meant by sa~n~naa, perception. > N: we can compare here the use of the word sanna: we find in the texts at > times atta-sanna, perception of self, and anatta-sanna, perception of > non-self. > We read in the Co. that the monks were very interested in anapana sati. That > is why the Buddha dealt with the other meditation subjects in short, but > with mindfulness of breathing in detail. The Co now refers to the > Visuddhimagga for details about this subject. > ***** > After this the Co deals with seeing the body in the body etc. > I translated from the Co I have in Thai. And I used the Visuddhimagga on all > the tetrads. (To be found under U.P. I think) We have to consider: to whom > was this sutta addressed. > This is a long series (good for a rainy day), ending with the thirtyseven > factors of enlightenment. > Nina. > 21761 From: connie Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 7:27am Subject: Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi, Sarah ~ more talking. peace, connie Q: I've heard that science is proving that space and time are just concepts. A: A friend of mine says science is proving Buddhism, but even if it does, we'll still have to prove it to ourselves on an experiential level. Science is a useful tool but it's just another way of viewing things and we have to get beyond views and theories. We're not just going to read some 'Copernicus Proves Buddhism' book and get it because we have faith in Science. And we don't need all the complicated explanations. Some people understood what Buddha was saying just from hearing simple things like 'we all die' or 'all conditioned things perish'. Dukkha is also tied in with anatta or non-self and psychologically, Nibbana is freedom from Ego. It involves learning to see that there is no abiding essense of a self or soul, but a stream of changes as physical and mental events, rupa and nama. Our bodies are rupa and our consciousness or mind is nama, which we break down into citta and cetasika. Citta is what knows or experiences anything. That anything is what we call an aramanna, object... or object as reflected in our perception of it. Citta, awareness, is colored or flavoured by certain combinations of 52 mental factors or cetasikas that arise with it. We usually see rupa translated as form or physicality. Rupa is 28 different kinds of things like sound or colour or hardness, the realities that don't have any awareness. For instance, our bodies are rupa and when we think our belly is hungry, it is citta that knows hunger and decides to have the body eat. When there is pain, the body doesn't know it, citta does. Q: Oh... so that's why the dentist gives you laughing gas. There is still pain, but you're not so aware of it. A: I don't know how nitrous oxide works, but citta would be less aware of the pain. There are also a lot of different kinds of citta depending on the method of classifying them, but we won't get into all the different kinds of nama and rupa today. The important things are that everything, all dhammas, can be classified according to the two main divisions of nama and rupa and that anyone who claims to be Enlightened should be able to explain this. Q: If you are for non-attachment, what do you think about people getting married? A: What people? Q: You know, people who are in love and want to spend their lives together. Is that wrong? A: I think I haven't explained non-attachment or anatta very well, but there is a difference between what we call love as metta and love as attachment. A lot of what we call love is just selfish attachment and wanting sensual pleasure but not really about the other person and what is best for them. We like to think of love as all pure and good, something sacred, but we are caught up in our own ideas of what we call people and what we get out of being in love. Buddha spoke of two kinds of truth... conventional and ultimate and to some extent, right and wrong mean different things depending on what kind of truth we mean. 'People in love' is a conventional expression, but if they have the same real love and beliefs or understanding, they can be together in many lifetimes. You can read about different people's past lives and how they were related at different times in the Jataka tales. In another sense though, 'people' are just what we call certain groupings or aggregates of five components: consciousness, rupa, feelings, perception and forces that condition psychic activity. Nothing special to be in love with or to want someone else to love. It's said that it's not even kind to encourage someone else to become attached to you and one of the five things we should think about every day is that "All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become otherwise, will become separated from me." More love, more pain. But non-attachment is about giving up things like all forms of delusion, conceit and aversion, not depriving ourselves and spending all our time thinking about how miserable we are. "Enjoy what there is to enjoy and suffer what there is to suffer" without thinking it is who we are or that things last. You might hear "don't be swayed by the winds of fortune", which are worldly concerns like fame and praise or loss and pain and their opposites. We want to keep reminding ourselves that every step might be our last and should be on the path to freedom. We talk about the world being on fire or how we should have the same sense of urgency we would have if there was a fire on our heads. Q: Does the goal for this lifetime have to be Nirvana? A: Maybe in the back of our mind somewhere we'd like it to be, but it's just a fantasy until the first time it happens. If we learn to be in the present with wise attention, I think there is no goal and no one to reach it. We should be more concerned with accumulating the causes that would eventually lead to that... to developing right understanding of realities and taking advantage of opportunities to accumulate merit or kusala. There's also the Mahayana Bodhisattva ideal that says you would delay Nibbana in order to help other people. Q: I read that only monks can reach Nirvana. A: There are quite a few householders in the Suttas who attain some level of Nibbana, but there is something about anyone who has reached a certain level would have to join the Order to stay alive... I'm sorry I don't remember it right now. It's either that same day or within three days. The Suttas are probably what most people think of when they think about the Buddhist Canon, but the Tipitaka is actually 3 Collections or Baskets of books about eleven times the size of the Bible. The Vinaya or Discipline section covers everything from a monk not licking his bowl or his lips when he eats and how to behave at people's houses to how the Order conducts meetings and what happens when different rules are broken. All the different rules came about in response to different situations and problems that came up with more and more monks living together and the stories behind them are also there. The Sutta-Pitaka are the books where you find things like how a couple should live together or Buddha's thoughts on an ideal ruler. Suttas are the teachings according to the level of the audience's understanding and what would be the most beneficial thing for them to hear at the time. The Abhidhamma or Higher Doctrines explains ultimate truths and doesn't talk about things like people. Some people also call it the Buddha's moral psychology. I know you're familiar with some of the suttas, so I'd like to read part of a paragraph explaining a thought process in Abhidhamma terms just to give you some idea of the difference: "The millionth of the second that the arammana is experienced by the vinnana cittas of the different panca dvaras is followed by the vithi vara cittas of the dvara and then the mano dvara arises to experience the same arammana in sequence, so the arammana is always known by its own dvara vithi vara and the mano dvara vithi vara, after some bhavanga interposes." But you don't have to learn to talk like that to realize it and even though the Baskets are written differently, they talk about the same things. I wouldn't say that one was more right than another, just that they address different levels of practice or understanding and different people can find the approach that suits them best. Q: Were they in written in Sanskrit? A: The Theravadan or Elders' Doctrines were originally in Pali, but most of the later, Mahayana or Great Vehicle texts were in Sanskrit and you find a lot of variation in the different translations. The Tibetan Vajrayana or Diamond Way texts came from Mahayana. When you see karma, sutra or nirvana, that's Sanskrit and if it's kamma, sutta and nibbana, that's Pali, but it seems like even Theravadan writers are using the Sanskrit forms more now, especially when they have a Western audience, so it doesn't necessarily tell you which tradition you're reading about. 21762 From: smallchap Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:29am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Dear Sukin, Thank you for your reply. I have as much to learn from your postings as well as others. I wish to clarify that I write out of deep respect for the Dhamma and for this reason only. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > I think all kusala helps one along the path, but as you corrected later, it > must be with right view. One of the wonderful things about > Buddhadhamma is the teachings on the Parami. It shows me that not > only every form of kusala should not be overlooked, but that they > actually relate to one another in such a way that one should not be > isolated at the exclusion of others. > Anytime kusala citta arises at moments of dana or sila, it is good to be > aware of it as just a dhamma, not self. Knowing it for what it is will > accumulate as parami, otherwise if it is done with 'self' then it is not so > beneficial. One ends up taking it as my dana, my sila etc. There is a discourse in the Samyutta Nikaya which I am not about to trace it online. In this discourse a group of villagers living in Veludvara asked the Buddha, "We want to have many children, pleasant things such as perfumes, flowers, gold, and silver in this life, and after death we want to be reborn in the deva worlds. How could we accomplich this?" To which the Buddha replied by telling them to reflect in the following manner: "I want to live. I don't want to die. I am fond of pleasure and dislike pain and suffering. Now if someone were to kill me, it would not be pleasing and delightful. If I kill someone else, it won't be pleasing and delightful to him. A condition that isn't pleasing to me isn't pleasing to others, so how can I impose a condition that isn't pleasing and delightful to me on others?" "In the same way, stealing, sexual misconduct, ...... In this discourse, all are about "I", "Mine", "Self". But it is so skillfully delivered by the Buddha that non-beleivers were inducted to the Dhamma. > Likewise I think that when one concentrates on one of the 'factors of > awakening' and try to develop it with a 'self', then it may not lead to the > correct results. Here is a story in the Dhammapada commentery that proves otherwise. A certain weaver's daughter received instructions from the Buddha and meditated on Death. She reflected thus: "Uncertain is my life. Certain is my death. I shall surely die. Death will be the termination of my life. Life is unstable. Death is sure." For three years she meditated thus day and night. After answering correctly four questions put to her by the Buddha, she became a sotapana after the Buddha pronounced the stanzas: "Blind is this world; few are there here that see; as few go to heaven as birds escape from a net." http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2h.htm#weavergirl Alternative reading: Buddhist Legends. > I don't think that any of the factors of the 8th fold path can be developed > seperately. They arise by conditions, the primary of which is > understanding nama and rupa as it is, constantly, again and again. I > think there is a difference in conventional understanding of energy, > livelihood, concentration etc. from the corresponding factors in the Noble > path. Giving it conventional interpretation will give rise to idea of > developing them one by one. Let us go hear the discourse preached by the Buddha to Ganaka- Moggallana, sweet in the beginning, sweet in the middle and sweet in the end: "Thus I have heard: At one time the Lord was staying near Savatthi in the palace of Migara's mother in the Eastern Monastery. Then the brahman Ganaka-Moggallana approached the Lord; having approached he exchanged greetings with the Lord; having conversed in a friendly and courteous way, he sat down at a respectful distance. As he was sitting down at a respectful distance, Ganaka-Moggallana the brahman spoke thus to the Lord: "Just as, good Gotama, in this palace of Migara's mother there can be seen a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice, that is to say as far as the last flight of stairs,[1] so, too, good Gotama, for these brahmans there can be seen a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice, that is to say in the study [of the Vedas];[2] so too, good Gotama, for these archers there can be seen a gradual... practice, that is to say in archery; so too, good Gotama, for us whose livelihood is calculation [3] there can be seen a gradual training, a gradual practice, that is to say in accountancy. For when we get a pupil, good Gotama, we first of all make him calculate: 'One one, two twos, three threes, four fours, five fives, six sixes, seven sevens, eight eights, nine nines, ten tens,' and we, good Gotama, also make him calculate a hundred. Is it not possible, good Gotama, to lay down a similar gradual training, gradual doing, gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline? "It is possible, brahman, to lay down a gradual training, a gradual doing, a gradual practice in respect of this dhamma and discipline, Brahman, even a skilled trainer of horses, having taken on a beautiful thoroughbred first of all gets it used to the training in respect of wearing the bit. Then he gets it used to further training - - even so brahman, the Tathagata, having taken on a man to be tamed, first of all disciplines him thus:...... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html > I don't even think that one can develop panna by trying to develop > panna. One ends up 'doing' things, like meditating and reading the > suttas. But I think it is the function of panna itself with the help of > chandha, which leads to seeking more understanding and hence > conditioning more panna. If self comes in, then what is read may not be > understood at all. Enough said. Sarah and Howard had a good discussion on this subject. Which comes first? Chicken or egg? > > > direct perception. One must come to know the objects through > > > the six- > > > senses first. > > > > S: There are two approaches: 1. Sila, Samadha, Panna; 2. Panna, > > Sila, Samadhi. Either approach can lead to insight. > > But every step of the way must require panna to be present. I don't think > it is a question of approach, but varying strengths. Besides what is > panna in isolation, is not panna in relation to some reality? Panna in > relation to sila, panna in relation to dana, pana in relation to bhavana, > no?! See above: Ganaka-Moggallana Sutta. smallchap 21763 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 8:39am Subject: Mana and other akusala Dear All, Between lobha, dosa and mana, I seem to have most problems with mana. Lobha is pleasant, so I object to it only when my stomach is full. But even while it is there, it can be known for what it is and the attachment does not stay. Dosa arises very easily in me and I can explode like a bomb, but just like a bomb, once exploded is no more, my anger too usually subsides and its forgotten. Milder forms can come to awareness and here too what might otherwise build up doesn't. Mana on the other hand completely overwhelms me. And even though in the examples above the awareness is only on the 'thinking' level, it nevertheless works, but with mana no matter how I try to talk myself into it, it feels like a thick barrier to cut through. So often it will take a few hours before it subsides, but that would have been due to conditions other than my attention to it. My question is, does anyone have the same problem. If so, do you know why this is so? Does dosa play part in maintaining mana? In mana there is a ‘me’ standing against ‘other’, does this then also mean that it conditions ditthi, particularly sakyaditthi? I know myself to have an extremely high degree of uddhacca, this is reflected in the fact that I will still be on page one reading something, when others have already reached page five. Does uddhacca play a part in conditioning mana? Mine is usually a inferiority mana, but is this only the other side of the same coin as superiority mana, just depending on conditions which will become apparent? Does mana decrease only by being more familiar with it, or are there opposing qualities which when developed decreases mana? I have other questions in mind, but maybe will ask them later. Thanks in advance. Sukin 21764 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:12am Subject: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang, no 1. November-December 2002 Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang. Preface The quiet surroundings for our Dhamma discussions could not have been better: the Kraeng Kacang Country Club and Khun Duangduen¹s house further up in the hills. Everything had been beautifully arranged and organized by Mom Betty Bongkojpriya Yugala. We enjoyed the warm hospitality of Acharn Sujin, her sister Khun Jid and Khun Duangduen. They treated us on one delicious meal after another, also high up at the lake. At sunset we walked down the lane, looking at the stars and listening to the voices of the forest, just relaxing or again discussing points of the Dhamma. It was all very peaceful and inspiring. We are most grateful for all the hospitality. Later on I attended Dhamma discussions in Thai at the Foundation, the building of the ³Dhamma Study and Support Foundation². There were discussions on the Satipaììhåna Sutta, for two hours and after that, I attended the meeting of the Board of the Foundation. Here was discussed whether only the first hour of the discussions on the Satipaììhåna Sutta should be spent with questions and after that the second hour with the text. It was feared that the time spent on the discussions could become longer so that there would be less time for the text itself. Acharn Sujin said: the questions are most important, because if people do not understand satipaììhåna pertaining to this moment, they cannot understand the text. It does not matter whether the second part of the time dedicated to the text becomes shorter and it would take even a year to deal with only a few parts of the texts. This was a long discussion but it brought home to me the importance of the principles that were discussed. We should not understand just the names of realities, but the characteristics which appear now. Without right understanding of satipaììhåna, we cannot grasp the meaning of the texts of the Tipiìaka. Many of my Thai friends have become very skilled at Pali (the Pali lesson starts at eight on Sunday morning at the Foundation) but they also realize that it is the understanding of the reality now that matters, not theoretical understanding. I was greatly impressed by the dedication and enthusiasm of the teachers who assisted Acharn Sujin in the explanation of the Dhamma. I really had píti (rapture) and paamojja.m (delight) being with them, it bolstered my confidence in the teachings. ******** 21765 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 10:12am Subject: New series: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang Dear friends, I am beginning a new series about the Dhamma discussions we had at the end of last year in Thailand. You will recognize a great deal of our discussions here on dsg which I also used for this series. Nina. 21766 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New series: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang After reading number 1 I was wondering about the discussions, and hoping you would post more about them. Thank you very much for starting a new series on the discussions. This list is really a gem...thanks again...Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 10:12 AM Subject: [dsg] New series: Abhidhamma in Kraeng Kacang > Dear friends, > I am beginning a new series about the Dhamma discussions we had at the end > of last year in Thailand. You will recognize a great deal of our discussions > here on dsg which I also used for this series. > Nina. > 21767 From: Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:34pm Subject: Way 82, Feeling cont. Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta, "The Way of Mindfulness" trans. & ed. Soma Thera, Commentary, Buddhaghosa Thera, Subcommentary (tika), Dhammapala Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html The Contemplation of Feeling, continued This is another method of understanding: (He) understands, "I experience a pleasant feeling" = Sukham vedanam vediyamiti pajanati. By the absence of painful feeling at the moment of pleasant feeling, he knows, while experiencing a pleasant feeling: "I am experiencing a pleasant feeling." By reason of that knowledge of the experiencing of pleasant feeling, owing to the absence now of whatsoever painful feeling that existed before and owing to the absence of this pleasant feeling, before the present time, feeling is called an impermanent, a not lasting, and a changeful thing. When he knows the pleasant feeling, in the pleasant feeling, thus, there is clear comprehension. For it is said, in the 78th Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya, by the Blessed One: "When one experiences a pleasant feeling, Aggivessana, then one does not experience a painful feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Only the pleasant feeling does one then experience. When one experiences a painful feeling, Aggivessana, then one does not experience a pleasant or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Only a painful feeling does one then experience. When one experiences a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, then, one does not experience a pleasant or a painful feeling. Only a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling does one then experience. Pleasant feeling, indeed, Aggivessana, is a thing that is impermanent, put-together, dependently originating, decaying, passing away, fading and ceasing. So is painful feeling, and the neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. The learned, real disciple, Aggivessana, seeing thus, turns away from the pleasant feeling even as he does from the painful, and the neither-pleasant-nor-painful feelings. Turning away, he detaches himself; by absence of attachment, he frees himself; freed, he knows thus: "I am freed of craving. Destroyed by me is rebirth; lived by me is the Highest Life of the Real Way; done by me is the work of developing the Real Way that must be developed; and (concerning the sixteen-fold work of the development of the Royal Way) there is no more work to be done by me." Pleasant worldly feeling refers to the six joyful feelings connected with the six sense-doors, and dependent on that which is tainted by defilements. Pleasant spiritual feeling refers to the six joyful feelings connected with the six sense-doors, and not dependent on sense-desire. Painful worldly feeling refers to the six feelings of grief connected with the six sense-doors, and dependent on that which is tainted by defilements. Painful spiritual feeling refers to the six feelings of grief connected with the six sense-doors, and not dependent on sense-desire. Worldly neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling refers to the six feelings of indifference connected with the six sense-doors, and dependent on that which is tainted by defilements. Spiritual neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling refers to the six feelings of indifference connected with the six sense-doors, and not dependent on sense-desire. The division into pleasant worldly feeling and so forth is in the 137th Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya. Ajjhattam = "Internally": The bhikkhu dwells contemplating feelings in the feelings that are his own by laying hold of the pleasant, painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Or he dwells contemplating feelings in the feelings of others by laying hold of the pleasant, painful or neither-pleasant-nor-painful feelings, in the way told above. Or at one time he contemplates his own feelings and at another time, another's. Samudayadhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." In this contemplation of feeling, the bhikkhu dwells seeing the origination and the dissolution of the aggregate of feeling or seeing the origination of feeling at one time and the dissolution of feeling at another time, by way of ignorance, craving and so forth, in the five ways mentioned in the Section on the Modes of Deportment.[32] From here on it should be understood that the exposition is just according to the method followed in the explanation of body-contemplation. Indeed, the mindfulness that lays hold of feeling is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance for the bhikkhu who lays hold of feeling should be understood. 32. He, thinking: 'the origination of feeling comes to be through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of conditions sees the arising of the aggregate of feeling... (Patisambhida Magga P.T.S. Edition Page 55). 21768 From: robmoult Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slides 27-30 for comment Classifying Cittas Slide Contents ============== 1.0 Citta: Consciousness (89 or 121 Cittas) 1.1 Sense Sphere (54 Cittas) 1.1.1 Unwholesome (12 Cittas) These cittas create "bad kamma" - Greed-Rooted - Hatred-Rooted - Delusion-Rooted 1.1.2 Rootless (18 Cittas) These cittas sense what happens to us (seeing, hearing, etc.) Note: slightly simplified - Resultant 1.1.3 Beautiful (24 Cittas) Wholesome create "good kamma"; Resultant acts as "subconscious" - Wholesome - Resultant 1.2 Fine Material Sphere (15 Cittas) 1.3 Immaterial Sphere (12 Cittas) 1.4 Supramundane (8 or 40 Cittas) Speaker Notes ============= Many people's first impression of Abhidhamma is that there are long lists of complicated Pali terms to be memorized. The Abhidhamma does contain many lists. The Abhidhamma lists the 89 or 121 possible mental states, which can be broken into four categories: - Sense Sphere Mental States; these are the mental states we experience in our day to day lives - Fine-Material Sphere Mental States; these are the mental states of experienced meditators when they meditate on objects - Immaterial Sphere Mental States; these are the mental states of experienced meditators when they meditate on concepts - Supramundane Mental States; these are the mental states of those who are approaching enlightenment In our discussion today, we will only focus on the sense sphere mental states. The first group are the unwholesome mental states. The unwholesome mental states are further broken into greed-rooted, hatred-rooted and delusion-rooted. All unwholesome mental states create bad kamma. The "weight" of the kamma created depends on the intensity of the volition, or will, behind the mental state. Strong will means strong kamma. The second group are the rootless mental states. They are called rootless because they do not have bad roots (greed, hatred, delusion), nor do they have good roots (non-greed or generosity, non- hatred or loving kindness, non-delusion or wisdom). These mental states are called resultants, (vipâka in Pali). According to Buddhism, things happen to us because of our past kamma. The mental state associated with an instant of seeing or hearing is, in fact, the result of some past kammic action. The third group are the beautiful mental states. The wholesome beautiful mental states are the opposites to the unwholesome mental states. These mental states create good kamma for us. There is also a type of beautiful resultant mental state, which acts as our subconscious. The subconscious is what the mind is doing when it is not doing anything else. In Pali, this is called a "bhavanga" mental state. Because being born as a human is very fortunate, the subconscious mental state is beautiful. 21769 From: azita gill Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mana and other akusala --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Dear All, > dear Sukin, Hello. I have enjoyed reading your posts. How are you, hope you are well. Just a few weeks ago, I posed a similar question to the group. Can't remember dates but I think I called it 'mana and ditthi'. I too, have many problems with Mana. This very morning I was in tears [which is dosa conditioned by what I perceive to be Mana]. I was thinking that most of my friends are fools, the people that I actually see from day to day. Then I give myself a hard time about being so arrogant; and I decided that maybe I should just stay away from them all, but then I felt lonely and now I have a headache!!!!!!!! Quote from Nina's Cetasikas: 'The Attasalini gives the following definition of conceit: ...herein conceit is fancying [deeming, vain imagining]. It has haughtiness as characteristic, self-praise as function, desire to advertise self like, [unquote: here I would add self dislike] quote: a banner as self manifestation, greed disassociated from wrong view as proximate cause, and should be regarded as a form of lunacy'. .. So, consider me a lunatic. ... Further on in Cetasikas, we read: 'Conceit can only be eradicated when one has realised arahatship. So long as conceit has not been eradicated there are many opportunities for the arising of conceit.' It actually made me feel somewhat relieved to know that conceit is so difficult so eradicate, strange I know, but I give myself such a hard time about not being 'perfect', that to know even a sotapanna has conceit is kind of comforting. I do become despondant at times, but to know that that is just a conditioned state 'I' can't do anything about it, it arises and passes away, has a strange calming effect. To have the wonderful Dhamma friends like you and the others on this group, really helps me to keep going. Maybe my other friends are fools, but at least now, instead of yelling at them, I hold my tongue and try to think of something good about them. You ask does Dosa play a part in maintaining Mana. Again, in Nina's Cetasikas, she states that comparing ourselves to others gives rise to many akusala cittas, so I guess the answer is yes. I too, have more to say on this, but right now I'm off to yoga, often a good way for me to 'work out' my bad feelings. May we all have lots of courage to keep going. cheers, Azita. > Between lobha, dosa and mana, I seem to have most > problems with mana. > Lobha is pleasant, so I object to it only when my > stomach is full. > But even while it is there, it can be known for what > it is and the > attachment does not stay. > Dosa arises very easily in me and I can explode like > a bomb, but > just like a bomb, once exploded is no more, my anger > too usually > subsides and its forgotten. Milder forms can come to > awareness and > here too what might otherwise build up doesn't. > Mana on the other hand completely overwhelms me. And > even though in > the examples above the awareness is only on the > 'thinking' level, it > nevertheless works, but with mana no matter how I > try to talk myself > into it, it feels like a thick barrier to cut > through. So often it > will take a few hours before it subsides, but that > would have been > due to conditions other than my attention to it. > > My question is, does anyone have the same problem. > If so, do you > know why this is so? > > Does dosa play part in maintaining mana? > > In mana there is a ‘me’ standing against > ‘other’, does this then > also mean that it conditions ditthi, particularly > sakyaditthi? > > I know myself to have an extremely high degree of > uddhacca, this is > reflected in the fact that I will still be on page > one reading > something, when others have already reached page > five. Does uddhacca > play a part in conditioning mana? > > Mine is usually a inferiority mana, but is this only > the other side > of the same coin as superiority mana, just depending > on conditions > which will become apparent? > > Does mana decrease only by being more familiar with > it, or are there > opposing qualities which when developed decreqses > mana? > > I have other questions in mind, but maybe will ask > them later. > > Thanks in advance. > > Sukin 21770 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Issues 6, no 2. Dear smallchap, op 29-04-2003 07:32 schreef smallchap op smallchap@y...: I liked your quote about Khema. By the way I also liked your quote about the weaver's daughter. King Suddhodana, well I do not know the answer. I just translated this Issue from Thai for the Foundation in Bangkok. Maybe someone else knows a reason? I am interested. Could there be an exception or a special reason for this case? Do you have a text? I read in Pali Proper Names, II, p. 1201: when he was about to die, the Buddha came from Vesali to see him and preach to him, and Suddhodana became an arahat and died as a lay arahat. It does not say about a week. We do not know how long he was on his death bed. With appreciation, Nina. > > I find this interesting passage in the Dhammapada Commentery > (Buddhist Legends, Bk 24, 5): > > "...At the conclusion of the lesson Khema was established in > Arahatship; the multitude also profited by the lesson. > > "Said the Teacher to the King, "Great King, Khema ought either > to retire from the world or to pass into Nibbana." The King > replied, "Reverend Sir, admit her to the Order; as for Nibbana, > never!" She retired from the world and became one of the > Teacher's foremost famale disciple in wisdom."{end quote} > > You may wish to note that King Suddhodana, the father of the > Buddha, lived for seven days after he attained Arahatship before > passing into parinibbana. > > 21771 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3 Dear Jaran, very useful. It reminds me of our discussions about thinking in Kraeng Kacan. See below. op 29-04-2003 12:06 schreef Jaran Jainhuknan op jjn@b...: One important thing to note is that between the > moments of satipatthana, there is thinking. Although thinking always > arises after seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and > touching, we hardly know the quality of thinking. > > If vipassana ~na~na is to arise now to penetrate the > characteristics of dhamma, it will understand the quality of > dhamma, as usual, only more profoundly with finer detail. > Vipassana ~na~na understands the characteristics of thinking > that it is different from seeing, hearing etc. > (snip) > > Even for thinking (contemplating), vipassana~na~na can arise > to be aware of it and panna can study its characteristics. > At the moment of thinking, it is a natural phenomenon; > thinking is an element, not self, knowing an object. When > vipassana~na~na falls away, that person knows that thinking > cannot be controlled because the understanding prior to the > arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are > different. Furthermore, pa~n~na at the level of vipassana > ~na~na cannot choose to experience an element, but it arise > due to conditions. N: We discussed a great deal about control and no control, but through panna which directly experiences nama and rupa this will be clear. And this is very clear: < the understanding prior to the arising of nama-rupaparicchada~na~na and after it are different.> There is no more doubt about or in which way to see it. No control whether thinking arises or not. And panna cannot choose what the object will be at a given moment, thinking or any other reality, it maybe akusala dhamma. This can also be object of insight. With appreciation, Nina. 21772 From: Date: Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana, Introduction to the Abhidhamma - Slide 1 for comment To Sukin: In a message dated 4/29/03 1:03:01 AM, sukin@k... writes: << I do not wish to risk lowering the quality of discussions that otherwise goes on here with my uninformed views. Beside my habit of making generalizations is still quite strong. I have also noticed the quick reacti= on to defend my position when threatened. It is almost like I frantically search for files from amongst different drawers.:-/ But this is where I am and can work from.... I have a fairly good idea of what satipatthana is about, but I know almost nothing about jhana. I hope what I have remarked about outer and inner conditions for jhana practice is only misconception, and that you, Howard and Larry are actually reaping the fruits of jhana. I say this = also because even if this is the case, it does not make any difference in my understanding of the importance of satipatthana as a practice involving no formal sitting nor prior accumulations of concentration. More comments following yours: >> %%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: I am quite sure my good friend, if you establish a daily practice, and you keep up your practice over a number of years, and you practice diligently you will know what jhana is form personal experience. %%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: I can think of two different kinds of ¡¥detachment¡|, tell me which one if any, fits with the practice of jhana. On the one hand there is recognition of akusala states and choosing to reject it. On the other, there is just the recognition of an arising dhamma, knowing that it is conditioned and anatta. In the first case there is a preference for kusala. In the second there is no such discrimination, though following moments may make such value judgments. In the first case, the detachment is from judging akusala as undesirable. In the second, it is panna which sees the true nature of the phenomena, by its very nature, does not cling. After all, cling to what if all is evanescent and not-self? In the first case there is movement along the path towards more refined states or at least dwelling in the existent state, in the second the next moment may be kusala, but it does not involve the process of ¡¥becoming¡|. I feel the first is still the stuff of which samsara is made; the second has the taste of ¡§release¡¨. %%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: No, my friend I speak of only one detachment. If one lets go, does not attach, and remains alert and mindful, then the "unholsome" deminish and the "holsom are exposed as non-arising subtle perception of delight and happiness. %%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: The three characteristic is not penetrated because of concentration, but from growing in understanding about the nature of dhammas. %%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Freedom is not, my good friend, an intellectual process. The mind, as we know it in the West as the thinking process, cannot grasp freedom, liberation because it is the very cause of the imprisonment. We need only free ourselves of the tyranny of our own thinking, concepts and mental states to know freedom. %%%%%%%%%%% Sukin: As I become more and more familiar with my own mind states seeing the notoriety of ignorance and other accumulated akusala, at this point I am also seeing more and more what it means by the fact that it takes incalculable years to become enlightened. %%%%%%%%%%% Jeff: Or, it can be an instant in which you let go of those "mind states." Best to you, layman Jeff 21773 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:28am Subject: Re: Mana and other akusala Hello Sukin, 'glad to see you're in message-posting mode again; it's always a treat. You asked why I have been quiet for so long; actually, I respond to dsg posts almost every day but rarely hit the "send" button. Often, I have a fear of saying the wrong thing. Mike has kindly suggested that this is due to ottappa (moral dread), but I think we all know mana (conceit), is the most likely culprit. I can't help with your questions, sorry, they're too technical. But I notice that you don't make a show of being hard on yourself; you make an objective appraisal of the cetasikas involved. I should learn from that; putting myself down, as I often do, probably doesn't help anyone. People are bound to wonder, "If he says that about himself, what must he say about us?" This leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask for some time: We are told that whenever kusala citta has the concept of another living being as its object, then either metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha arises with it. What is the case when kusala citta has the concept of one's own self as object? I accept that there can't be metta, (maybe there could be upekkha), but I wonder if such a kusala citta even exists. In other words, I wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?) Certainly, even an arahant has to think of himself conceptually from time to time -- as RobK says; how else could he cross the street? But I'm getting the impression from Nina's thread, "Dhamma Issues 6," that an arahant conceptualises himself as being a monk and that is kusala (or kirya, in his case). Could it be that, to conceptualise himself in any other way -- as he would have to do if he wasn't ordained -- would be akusala and therefore beyond him? Am I on the right track or am I rambling? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Dear All, > > Between lobha, dosa and mana, I seem to have most problems with mana. 21774 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:34am Subject: Jhanas Dear Group, I am confused about the Jhanas. Did the Buddha strongly recommend mastery of the jhanas, not only as a refuge for here and now, but also as an essential part of the path? Are they essential? What about panna, what about vipassana, what about seeing things as they really are in this moment? metta, Christine 21775 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: Jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I am confused about the Jhanas. Did the Buddha strongly recommend > mastery of the jhanas, not only as a refuge for here and now, but > also as an essential part of the path? Are they essential? What > about panna, what about vipassana, what about seeing things as they > really are in this moment? > > metta, > Christine ********* Christine, I am copying below my post No;21711 , which tried to explain the place of jhana in the teachings of the Buddha. After reading this, please say whether, this provided you with the necessary information or you would like to have further elaboration. with metta Yasalalaka ******** I was reading the several posts on Jhana, Samatha, and Meditation. I was beginning to discuss some of these very same matters with, Sukin, and he showed a disinclination to continue the discussion with me and I thought I had stepped on to unknown ground in trying to discuss meditation, when the members of the forum are primarily here to discus Abhidhamma. However, having read the several post I have mentioned, and being a member of this group to learn Abhidhamma, I thought I will make my contribution on Meditation and allied matters. During the time the Prince Siddhartha was born in ancient India, there was 62 different schools of philosophy. The well known teachers of some of them were, Purana Kassapa, Makkhali Ghosala, Ajita Kesakambila, Pakuddha Kachchayana, Niganta Nataputta and Sanjay Belathaputta. They practiced samata ( quietude)meditation, using Kasina, which are the 40 different types of arammana to develop concentration . In samath, the mind is quietened first by attaining one pointed concentration( samadhi). Continuing to develop the concentration, with the eyes fixed on the Kasina, they attain jhana( dyana) absorptions. There are eight stages of jhana absorptions, four rupa jhana, ( first, second, third ,forth) and four arupa jhana. (fifth,sixth,seventh, and eighth). The first four jhana develop the mind and go into a deep "silence", very calm and serene, no thoughts arise in the mind. At the third and the fourth stages, mind is so deeply concentrated the meditator will not be aware of the body. Thereafter, the fifth to eight stages of absorptions give the meditator supernatural power. The Hindu teachers,and philosophers practiced these meditations even before the Prince Siddhartha was born. Prince Siddhartha, saw the four signs, and knew there was untold suffering , among beings and thought that there must be a cause for this, and that one may be able to stop it by eliminating the cause. He studied under some of the great teachers at the time, I had mentioned earlier. But he was disappointed . Ascetic Siddhartha, thought that it is through self-inflicted pain that he may be able to delve into the truth, and practiced austerity for six years, having failed in that endeavour, he left his five devoted companions, and went on his own. The rest of the story we know. Lord Buddha, practiced the samatha, meditation following the anapanasati,( taking the in and out breath) as the object of concentration(arammana). That was a means of clearing the mind of the incessantly arising and falling away of the thought processes. At the forth jhana absorption the mind is clear, serene, calm, and alert, but incapable of any other mental activity. Therefore the Buddha, after attaining the fourth jhana, came out of it and continued looking into the causes of suffering, looking at the mental activity in different ways, that was the insight meditation (vipassana), the unique method found by the Buddha himself. In vipassana, the Buddha tried to see the ` working', not just the understanding, of impermanence(anicca), unsatisfactoriness( dukkha ) and no-self (anatta). It is only through this insight or penetrating into the working of his own mind that the Buddha, `saw' dukkha, its cause, the way out of it and its cessation. He was able to differentiate between the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. A being is just five aggregates ( rupakkhandha, vedenakkhandha,sannanakkhandha, vinnanakkhandha and sankharakkhandha), and the cause of this suffering is rooted in lobha, dosa, moha, which has created in the mind of the being that he is a person, a "self", and every thing around is permanent, pleasant, and that they are for his enjoyment. The Buddha knew that once the beings become aware of the irreality of this thinking, they will turn to his teaching, which will enable them to go through the same experience he went through and attain nibbana. With metta, Yasalalaka 21776 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: Change (Anicca) Hi Smallchap, Thank you for your attempt to try to make me see the limitation of my views and looking up the texts to find relevant quotes. I appreciate the effort you put into it and I wish I could also do the same, but I am not well read at all. I depend almost entirely on dsg for my dhamma reading, so when anyone posts a sutta quote I am grateful. And since I depend so much on dsg for my daily dhamma, I also rely on certain members to do the interpretation for me. So at this point I will have to ask some of these members to help me with interpreting the suttas you have posted. But I do have some understandings which I would like to express first. First of all, I do not deny that the Buddha used conventional examples to teach dhamma. But I think you will agree that it is only ultimate realities which he always meant for his disciples to know. There is nothing in the conventional realities themselves which have the characteristic of anicca and dukkha. What you may not agree with however, is that these teachings were specific to the audience and that it may not be applicable to others. Hence we should neither think that we can meditate on the same objects nor that *we* know what is suitable for ourselves. This would be underestimating one's own accumulated ignorance. I picture the situation during Buddha's times to be as when many people who had the excellent accumulations and good kamma to be born. They all knew from the very beginning the difference between kusala and akusala at a level some of us can't differentiate even after hearing the dhamma. When the Buddha spoke, it was like they were familiar with the lingo as would those living in a particular closed community understand the local language, while outsiders would have a hard time comprehending it. So it was no problem at all if Buddha used conventional examples. Likewise using I, me, mine, self, was never a problem. However, not all had equal accumulations, so it is no surprise that some took longer than others to attain levels of realization. And also it is not surprising that, certain special objects of meditation were given to individuals to bolster their practice. However it must always be the case that "satipatthana" was the basic practice, and these other additional objects of contemplation were only support. Here again, only the Buddha would know what is best. I can imagine that if the Buddha was here today, he would readily find the right objects even for us to support our satipatthana practice!?! But the foundation *must* be satipatthana, other methods cannot lead anyone anywhere. Metta, Sukin *I have not included our past posts here since it would be too long. 21777 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Change (Anicca)Victor, Howard Dear Victor and Howard, Sorry for the delay in responding. Victor, it is no doubt useful - as other members have said - to consider that everything is impermanent. For example maranasati (meditation on death) takes our life and considers how very soon we will die. Done in the right way it leads to a great deal of detachment and is highly kusala. Still I believe that that any consideration of the five khandhas, no matter how skillful, is not sufficient to lead to full understanding. There has to be a study of the actual elements as they arise. You mention desk and how the thinking of it is not the same as the actual desk. Right. And so it is when we think of 'ourselves' or even when we think of feeling or sankhara or vinanna or sanna. No matter how wise the thinking is it cannot be as direct as knowing the moment. While we are thinking there can be insight into the thinking process and then we gradually see that all our problems depend on thinking and not seeing the khandhas as they really are. Take an extreme example: we are involved in a serious car accident. I spoke about this with a friend on Sunday. It can happen the next time we drive. Anyway something happens, and we see another car travelling towards us. We try to avoid but can't and the cars collide and we are badly injured. Maybe already someone reading this can imagine it happening and feels just a tad uneasy. This is because of thinking taking concepts as object. In fact, it is no different if it really happens. If there isn't the dwelling in concepts, if there can be insight, then there is simply seeing, and hearing, and feeling and sanna and sankhara.- Maybe painful feeling through the bodysense, but that is not so bad, unless, because of not understanding the moment, there is fear and aversion to the pain. In other words just like this moment, empty elements. No rule, of course, that one should have insight at such moments, but if study of elements is habitual then it is more likely that it will occur. This reply might be off the point but perhaps it is enough for now. RobertK > > > Dear Victor, > > I do see why this appears to be a contradiction - that a concept > > doesn't exist (is asabhava) and yet it can still be a object of > > citta. > > Let's take an example now. Think of a flying purple elephant. While > > thinking of this there is vedanakkhandha (the aggregate of feeling), > > there is sannakkhandha (the aggregate of perception, memory ) > > that 'remembers' the shape of an elephant and the color purple. > > There is sankharakkhanda (the formations that includes all other > > cetasikas) and there is vinnakkhandha (the aggregate of > > consciousness). These are all paramattha dhammas, they are > > conditioned and impermanent and not self. > > But there is no purple, flying elephant - that is pannati, concept, > > and yet it is the object at that time. It is dhammarammana. But it > > is the dhammarammana that is asabhava, non-existant. > > RobertK > > > ========================== > Victor::: Hi Robert K, Thanks for your feedback! I would like to say that concept of a desk, for instance, is not one and the same as a desk. Your feedback on the following is much appreciated. Concepts are formed by citta, or in Jon's words, they are assembled by mind. Whatever is formed/assembled, disintegrates, does not last, subject to change, passes away. In that sense, a concept is impermanent. What is impermanent is dukkha. What is impermanent, subject to change is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Seeing thus, one grows dispassionate towards concept. _________________________ Howard:: Agreed that there exists no purple, flying elephant. (In fact, there > is no keyboard on which I am typing at this very moment!) But more critical, > I think, is the question of whether there is the *idea/thought* of a purple, > flying elephant, for *that* is what most people would mean by the concept of > "purple, flying elephant". Are you saying that there is no single mind-door > object that is that idea/thought, but only a group of various mind- door > objects, including several images, verbal phrases, mentally, and > collectively, labelled by 'purple, flying elephant'? If that is your point, I > think it is a reasonable one. Some concepts are, indeed, single mind-door > objects, and other supposedly single concepts are actually not single at all. > (Just as we put labels on mentally collected groups of rupas, we do the same > with mind-door objects.) > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 21778 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken H and Sukin, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hello Sukin, > > 'glad to see you're in message-posting mode again; it's > always a treat. ..... ...and to hear from you, too;-) (Also pls nudge Andrew to send his useful quotes on-list rather than off-list too.....) ..... > You asked why I have been quiet for so long; actually, I > respond to dsg posts almost every day but rarely hit the > "send" button. Often, I have a fear of saying the wrong > thing. Mike has kindly suggested that this is due to > ottappa (moral dread), but I think we all know mana > (conceit), is the most likely culprit. ..... Just think of us all with metta and hit ‘send’;-) As far as I'm concerned, you always say just the right thing! I’ll leave it to ‘your’ sati and panna to know the cittas. I liked this sentence from one of Nina’s recent posts: “It is thanks o the Abhidhamma that we can learn what we do not know, otherwise we may believe that we have a great deal of understanding, we may accumulate even more conceit than we have already.” So, Sukin, just be glad there is some wise reflecting and comprehension of these states and some realisation of their unwholesome characteristics....otherwise it could be even worse;-) You may like to review these posts in U.P. which contain a lot of info. I think the last one (by Jon) answers questions about mana and wrong view: ***** Conceit (mana) 4072, 4405, 7594, 11570, 11650, 11866, 12931, 13626, 13674, 17732, 20227 Conceit vs wrong view of self 11868, 20141 ***** I think we can all see how much time is spent concerned with ourselves in one way or other - even now whilst wishing there was less conceit or less thinking of self, there is still the finding of oneself as important in one way or other. ..... > I can't help with your questions, sorry, they're too > technical. But I notice that you don't make a show of > being hard on yourself; you make an objective appraisal > of the cetasikas involved. I should learn from that; > putting myself down, as I often do, probably doesn't help > anyone. People are bound to wonder, "If he says that > about himself, what must he say about us?" ..... ;-) ..... > This leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask for > some time: We are told that whenever kusala citta has > the concept of another living being as its object, then > either metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha arises with it. > What is the case when kusala citta has the concept of > one's own self as object? I accept that there can't be > metta, (maybe there could be upekkha), but I wonder if > such a kusala citta even exists. In other words, I > wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?) ..... I think it was suggested recently that adosa (non-aversion) and metta were synonymous. I think that metta is one kind of adosa and whilst the brahma viharas including metta can only be to others, there can in theory be adosa with oneself as object. Adosa and alobha accompany all kusala cittas. However, I think that moments of thinking of oneself with kusala cittas must be extremely rare. It’s easier for me to think of examples for the Buddha reflecting on the qualities of the Tathagata, for example. Certainly when we wish ourselves well or other common examples given, the reflections are rooted in attachment, I think . ..... > Certainly, even an arahant has to think of himself > conceptually from time to time -- as RobK says; how else > could he cross the street? ..... Exactly. The aim is not to stop thinking about particular objects (inc. oneself), but to understand the different dhammas. In our case, unlike the arahant’s, moha and attachment would be predominant I think at these times. ..... I’ll leave your other question as I need to read the D. Issues first. maybe Sukin or Nina will help. Metta, Sarah ===== 21779 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati sutta Dear Nina, Mike & Sukin, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > I translated from the Co I have in Thai. And I used the Visuddhimagga on > all > the tetrads. (To be found under U.P. I think) We have to consider: to > whom > was this sutta addressed. > This is a long series (good for a rainy day), ending with the > thirtyseven > factors of enlightenment. > Nina. ..... Yes, the series is under anapanasati at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts There is a lot of detail and none of it is easy. I think you might have missed it before, Mike. I'd be glad if you, Sukin or Chris reposted any sections in small portions for further discussion. Metta, Sarah ======== 21780 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mana and other akusala Hi Azita, Thanks for your post. I am fine. My main problem is just general self- consciousness, not necessarily comparing myself with others. I will get furious if someone honks his horn behind me when I am driving or on the other hand feel so nervous when I perceive others as waiting for me to quickly park my car so that they can move on, that I may end up scraping it against a pillar or something. This applies to other situations as well. Anyway, I found it helpful enough to think as you quoted Nina saying, " comparing ourselves to others gives rise to many akusala cittas." And I won't try to figure out what these might be. I guess I'll just take i= t one step at a time and the real answer may come out one day.:-) Thanks for the encouragement Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, azita gill wrote: > --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula > wrote: > Dear All, > > > dear Sukin, > Hello. I have enjoyed reading your posts. How > are you, hope you are well. > Just a few weeks ago, I posed a similar > question to the group. Can't remember dates but I > think I called it 'mana and ditthi'. > I too, have many problems with Mana. This very > morning I was in tears [which is dosa conditioned by > what I perceive to be Mana]. I was thinking that most > of my friends are fools, the people that I actually > see from day to day. Then I give myself a hard time > about being so arrogant; and I decided that maybe I > should just stay away from them all, but then I felt > lonely and now I have a headache!!!!!!!! > Quote from Nina's Cetasikas: > 'The Attasalini gives the following definition of > conceit: > ...herein conceit is fancying [deeming, vain > imagining]. It has haughtiness as characteristic, > self-praise as function, desire to advertise self > like, [unquote: here I would add self dislike] quote: > a banner as self manifestation, greed disassociated > from wrong view as proximate cause, and should be > regarded as a form of lunacy'. > .. So, consider me a lunatic. ... > Further on in Cetasikas, we read: > 'Conceit can only be eradicated when one has > realised arahatship. So long as conceit has not been > eradicated there are many opportunities for the > arising of conceit.' > It actually made me feel somewhat relieved to > know that conceit is so difficult so eradicate, > strange I know, but I give myself such a hard time > about not being 'perfect', that to know even a > sotapanna has conceit is kind of comforting. > I do become despondant at times, but to know > that that is just a conditioned state 'I' can't do > anything about it, it arises and passes away, has a > strange calming effect. > To have the wonderful Dhamma friends like you > and the others on this group, really helps me to keep > going. Maybe my other friends are fools, but at > least now, instead of yelling at them, I hold my > tongue and try to think of something good about them. > You ask does Dosa play a part in maintaining > Mana. Again, in Nina's Cetasikas, she states that > comparing ourselves to others gives rise to many > akusala cittas, so I guess the answer is yes. > I too, have more to say on this, but right now > I'm off to yoga, often a good way for me to 'work out' > my bad feelings. > May we all have lots of courage to keep going. > cheers, > Azita. > > > Between lobha, dosa and mana, I seem to have most > > problems with mana. > > Lobha is pleasant, so I object to it only when my > > stomach is full. > > But even while it is there, it can be known for what > > it is and the > > attachment does not stay. > > Dosa arises very easily in me and I can explode like > > a bomb, but > > just like a bomb, once exploded is no more, my anger > > too usually > > subsides and its forgotten. Milder forms can come to > > awareness and > > here too what might otherwise build up doesn't. > > Mana on the other hand completely overwhelms me. And > > even though in > > the examples above the awareness is only on the > > 'thinking' level, it > > nevertheless works, but with mana no matter how I > > try to talk myself > > into it, it feels like a thick barrier to cut > > through. So often it > > will take a few hours before it subsides, but that > > would have been > > due to conditions other than my attention to it. > > > > My question is, does anyone have the same problem. > > If so, do you > > know why this is so? > > > > Does dosa play part in maintaining mana? > > > > In mana there is a ‘me’ standing against > > ‘other’, does this then > > also mean that it conditions ditthi, particularly > > sakyaditthi? > > > > I know myself to have an extremely high degree of > > uddhacca, this is > > reflected in the fact that I will still be on page > > one reading > > something, when others have already reached page > > five. Does uddhacca > > play a part in conditioning mana? > > > > Mine is usually a inferiority mana, but is this only > > the other side > > of the same coin as superiority mana, just depending > > on conditions > > which will become apparent? > > > > Does mana decrease only by being more familiar with > > it, or are there > > opposing qualities which when developed decreases > > mana? > > > > I have other questions in mind, but maybe will ask > > them later. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Sukin 21781 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi Connie, I think your two posts on Q & A contain a wealth of valuable information and I think your audience were fortunate to hear such clear explanations and good dhamma (imho);-) I’m amazed at how much ground you cover with your number series and the Q & A. They are good Q too - obviously a very responsive group. Hopefully some will be interested to continue the discussions with you - maybe even here;-) I like it all, but will pick out a few paras for brief comments: --- connie wrote: > Q: I was reading someone who was very adamant about saying Buddhism is > definitely not a religion. What do you say about that? > > A: I say our understanding and agreement on anything we try to talk > about is more important than the words we use and that the everyday > words we just assume we understand are very misleading if we don't > question them. Religion is one of those words people tend to be adamant > about. To me, all our beliefs and everything about our lives is our > religion. I'm more concerned with whether our beliefs are true and > beneficial than what we call them because whether we call ourselves > religious or not, our beliefs determine how we live and when our beliefs > are wrong, we don't live according to the truth and I think that's > harmful. ..... ;-) ;-) > Q: So you don't think God can help us? >..............But I believe the best help we ever got from > God was when Buddha was sitting under the bo tree and might have decided > not to teach the Truth he had Enlightened to if Brahma had not said some > people would be able to understand. ..... A further Q to you or anyone: The Buddha was omniscient, so what is the significance of Brahma saying what he would have known anyway? It also reminds me of the Parinibbana sutta and the ‘hint’ about living for a normal lifespan which Ananda is reported not to have responded to (and was later rebuked for at the First Council) - why should Ananda’s response or lack of be of such significance in determining the outcome of what would surely have been to everyone’s benefit? ..... >....... For the most part, I think we are > insignificant to the beings in other planes but you might like to be on > the safe side and extend metta, but not with any expectation of reward > or them saving you from yourself. ..... ;-) ..... > You might think rebirth is only about a whole life-time from conception > to death, but really, our whole life is only as long as a single moment > of consciousness. The whole world is only that long and the kind of > world it is depends on the type of consciousness... whether it is a > world of sound or taste or any other sense. The next moment, it's > different. We talk about being reborn in different planes, but can also > think of them as being different mind states and see how we make our own > heaven or hell as we go thru a single day. We react to things with joy > and we're in heaven. We justify rudeness or war and are more concerned > with getting what we want than who we might hurt and we act like animals > or people in hell. .... ..... Very well put. I’d like to encourage you to reply to any of the Starkids or others too. ..... Thanks again, Metta Sarah ==== 21782 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:36am Subject: Re: Jhanas Hi Christine, First, I would say that Right Concentration is an essential part of the path in the sense that it is a necessary but not a sufficient condition that leads to liberation, the cessation of dukkha. Second, what is right concentration? I would say that, in short, it is the mastery of the four jhanas. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html This is how I see it: Mastery of the four jhanas, as well as wisdom, is an essential part of the Noble Eightfold Path. Your comment is appreciated! Regards, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > I am confused about the Jhanas. Did the Buddha strongly recommend > mastery of the jhanas, not only as a refuge for here and now, but > also as an essential part of the path? Are they essential? What > about panna, what about vipassana, what about seeing things as they > really are in this moment? > > metta, > Christine 21783 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhanas Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > I am confused about the Jhanas. Did the Buddha strongly recommend > mastery of the jhanas, not only as a refuge for here and now, but > also as an essential part of the path? Are they essential? What > about panna, what about vipassana, what about seeing things as they > really are in this moment? ..... I know you will have read deeply and widely on the subject and also followed many discussions here and elsewhere. Perhaps you’d kindly also share some of your reflections (which I don’t believe we’ve ever heard) and collection of links for further consideration. Metta, Sarah ===== 21784 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mana and other akusala Hi Azita, --- azita gill wrote: ..... > I too, have many problems with Mana. This very > morning I was in tears [which is dosa conditioned by > what I perceive to be Mana]. I was thinking that most > of my friends are fools, the people that I actually > see from day to day. Then I give myself a hard time > about being so arrogant; and I decided that maybe I > should just stay away from them all, but then I felt > lonely and now I have a headache!!!!!!!! ..... Your posts always make us smile or laugh;-) I know Nina will be smiling too and I think the reason is that all these states are so common and natural in daily life for us all. To my mind it shows a certain lack of mana to reveal them and be able to laugh at oneself. I think it helps us all to see that getting upset or having mana is no big deal. Minding about it won’t help, but is conditioned that way too. So much clinging to self for all of us, I think. After I wrote to Sukin & KenH, I was considering about times when one reflects on one’s kusala, such as on dana (generosity). Different cittas, but some moments of kusala with oneself as object I think, in between more mana and attachment and so on. Thanks for repeating the helpful quotes and yes we’re all lunatics most the time;-) Hope the yoga fixed the headache;-) Metta, Sarah p.s. Nina’s new series from Kang Krajan prompts me to say that I hope our get-together next Dec in Bkk works out again. All our planned trips so far for this year so far have been cancelled for one reason or other including Bkk at this time and also the Alaska trip is now cancelled for everyone due to SARS. =========================================== 21785 From: connie Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:16am Subject: Re: Intro to Buddhism Last ones, Sarah. peace, connie. Q: What language do you chant in? A: In Theravadan countries, like Thailand, they chant in Pali but most of the Mahayana Buddhists chant in their native tongue. I was taught to chant in Japanese and recite a portion of one sutra in Classical Chinese, but I don't read those languages. Q: How does chanting relate to meditation? A: Basically, there are two kinds of formal meditation: samatha and vipassana. Samatha or tranquility meditation is not strictly Buddhist, but also practiced by other religions and the form people did even before Buddha. That's the one with the different jhana or 'altered consciousness' levels and that'll get you to different heavens, but not out of samsara, the endless wandering through the cycle of birth and death. For that, you need vipassana or insight. Chanting would be related to tranquility if you think of it as a kind of meditation. What you hear about chanting or meditation will depend on who you ask. Some people don't even like to use the word practice and some people I know who chant are very vehement when they say it's not meditation. Ideally, we would all be aware of whatever reality is happening at any time, regardless of what it is, with wise attention, and there would be constant bhavana, mental development. Q: I've heard that drinking isn't really prohibited as long as you keep it under control and don't lose mindfulness. A: It is an individual choice and I think you're right that the ideas behind the rules are more important than the actual words, but I disagree with whoever said that. I also think intoxicants can be any number of things that distract us from the path, not just drugs and alcohol. I would wonder how clearly the person who says that really sees things, but that's me and I should be more concerned with how I see things. Just being human, I am already limited by what my senses can pick up and how much of that do I not even notice? I also tend to twist things around to fit my understanding. If you write it down, you can see a lot of ignorance is just ignoring truth. Another point to that precept is that we are less guarded about what we might do and end up having cause for regret. But I'm not saying that just because I don't care for laughing gas, that I'd turn down novocaine, either. The five basic precepts involve non-injury, metta, sexual propriety, honesty and sobriety and are more like guidelines than vows or commandments. Sometimes, usually full moon days, you might also fast after noon, not dance or sing or watch shows and not get all decked out like a peacock. Novice monks add 2 more rules to the eight for lay-people and change the third one to include celibacy and fully ordained monks have over 200 precepts, but even monks don't take vows and are free to leave the Order if they decide they don't have the right accumulations to make it the best way for them to live or whatever their reason. When we talk about the Eightfold Path as Three Trainings, we group the steps under panna or wisdom, sila or morality and samadhi or concentration but either way, it's like a positive feedback loop where each step feeds the next and comes back around to feed the previous ones to higher and higher levels. There has to be a balance, but we have to start where we are. There are some people who say that it doesn't do any good to take precepts at all anymore and I think they might be saying we shouldn't put too much emphasis on just the morality aspects, but to ignore it is wrong, too. And we don't have to think in terms of precepts per se. We can think about being respectful, giving, metta or even just having a positive attitude. I don't mean we can just say 'Ok, today I'm not going to do this or that or I would never hurt anyone'. We don't know what's going to happen and all we can do is our best. We can't even say we won't hear something unpleasant and get angry about it. Even if I have no right understanding, I can follow rules until I learn to see that they really are the best way and then I have a little more understanding, at least on a worldly level. Q: Do you think we are more responsible or have a higher responsibility the more advanced we become? That there are higher standards for our behaviour? A: Yes. There is a sutta about one of the monks being reproached by a deva for stealing when all he had done is smell a flower and when he protested that he hadn't hurt anything the deva basically said he had to hold himself to higher standards and that smaller things should be more important to him than to someone who wasn't as pure. It also goes back to how far the gods will help us because when he asked the deva to watch over him and let him know if he was going to do something like that again, the deva told him he should be able to figure it out himself. Q: Would karma be worse for someone like that than say an innocent baby? A: I don't know about that. First, being born human is a result of good kamma and I'd agree that a baby is ignorant, but I'm not sure how innocent any of us ever is or what that really means. Then, not everything that happens to us is a result of kamma. Kamma is just one of the five natural orders of laws and 24 paccayas or conditions that come into play and is so complicated that Buddha called it one of the four imponderables, saying it would make us crazy to think too much about it. Even when something is due to kamma, like when you see something, it's a result or vipaka. People usually don't make a distinction and call both the cause and the result kamma, but that's not right. Kamma is formed during the seven thought moments called javanas and involves cetana, volition, so that is where the question of 'innocence' or purity would come in. Do we inform our thought process with right understanding or do we let akusala propel us forward? I think real innocence wouldn't create any new kamma. Actually, both kamma and vipaka are mental. No two people will have the same kamma or the same circumstances for the result to happen in the same way and not all kamma will ripen during this lifetime. We can't say bad things don't happen to good people. Even one of the early monks who had attained a high level was beaten to death for something he'd done in a previous life. Q: Can you practice Buddhism and another religion? A: Truth is truth wherever you find it and just because I call it Buddhism doesn't mean only Buddhists can know it. Anyone who walks the path Buddha pointed out would be Buddhist to my mind and my calling myself Buddhist doesn't mean that I have it right. In fact, I think you could argue that no one is a true Buddhist until they have attained what we call 'change of lineage' or stream entry, but that probably wouldn't make you a lot of friends. Also, a lot of what we think of as Buddhism is really mixed with other religious and cultural traditions, so you have to look beyond the ritual and display and not just accept that everything called Buddhism is what Buddha taught. You have to ask yourself if it fits the guidelines. A lot of Buddhists make Nibbana sound like some kind of heaven where the soul lives happily ever after. American Buddhism is going to look different than say, Tibetan Buddhism, which has a lot of the traditional Bon beliefs mixed in. Q: When I read the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" I really got confused about the different states and everything the dead person goes through. Can you explain that? A: The dying process and bardo states. I don't remember very much about that and don't understand a lot of the Tibetan things I read. There are other Mahayana stories, too about the dead person going before the court of Yama, the Lord of Hell, to have his whole life replayed before them to decide where he'll go next, but I think the idea is just about how we are 'heirs to our kamma'. I think that if there are intermediate states, whether they last 3 days or 7 weeks or that's just a way of saying it's outside of time as we know it, those could be considered as the next lives in a series, but I don't remember ever being dead. We're dying right now and on some level, all the stories are pointing to something that's happening now, I think. 21786 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intro to Buddhism Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Hi, Sarah ~ > more talking. ..... Likewise! Again, You gave good answers to difficult Qs. Just a few comments to just a few phrases.... ..... ***** >We're not just > going to read some 'Copernicus Proves Buddhism' book and get it because > we have faith in Science. .... ;-) ..... ***** > Q: Oh... so that's why the dentist gives you laughing gas. There is > still pain, but you're not so aware of it. > > A: I don't know how nitrous oxide works, but citta would be less aware > of the pain. There are also a lot of different kinds of citta depending > on the method of classifying them, but we won't get into all the > different kinds of nama and rupa today. ..... An interesing question and it reminded me of a point Howard raised before. As we know, kayavinnana (body-consciousness)only ever experiences hardness/softness, temperature and motion/pressure. The painful bodily feeling is a mental factor accompanying the citta, I think, which is akusala vipaka (result of kamma). So when the gas is given, it must be a decisive support condition for particular rupas not to be experienced by the akusala vipaka. In other words no conditions now for kamma to bring that same result with its accompanying painful/unpleasant bodily feeling. A very advance Q and I’m just speculating out loud but will be glad to hear any further comments. ***** > Q: You know, people who are in love and want to spend their lives > together. Is that wrong? > > A: I think I haven't explained non-attachment or anatta very well, but > there is a difference between what we call love as metta and love as > attachment. A lot of what we call love is just selfish attachment and > wanting sensual pleasure but not really about the other person and what > is best for them. We like to think of love as all pure and good, > something sacred, but we are caught up in our own ideas of what we call > people and what we get out of being in love. Buddha spoke of two kinds > of truth... conventional and ultimate and to some extent, right and > wrong mean different things depending on what kind of truth we mean. > 'People in love' is a conventional expression,..... ..... Great response.....And now we may all hand Victor over to you as we take a holiday on ‘conventional’ and ‘ultimate’ realities;-) (just kidding, Victor;-)) ..... ***** > In another sense though, 'people' are just what we call certain > groupings or aggregates of five components: consciousness, rupa, > feelings, perception and forces that condition psychic activity. > Nothing special to be in love with or to want someone else to love. > It's said that it's not even kind to encourage someone else to become > attached to you and one of the five things we should think about every > day is that "All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become > otherwise, will become separated from me." More love, more pain. But > non-attachment is about giving up things like all forms of delusion, > conceit and aversion, not depriving ourselves and spending all our time > thinking about how miserable we are. "Enjoy what there is to enjoy and > suffer what there is to suffer" without thinking it is who we are or > that things last. ..... Good points and so nicely put. ..... ***** > Q: I read that only monks can reach Nirvana. > > A: There are quite a few householders in the Suttas who attain some > level of Nibbana, but there is something about anyone who has reached a > certain level would have to join the Order to stay alive... I'm sorry I > don't remember it right now. It's either that same day or within three > days. ..... Nina is discussing this in her Foundation series with Smallchap. It relates to arahants needing to join the Order the same day or die. (Nina & Smallchap - I also tried to trace the account about the death of the Buddha’s father and the time without success. I’d be very interested to see any reference you can find, Smallchap). ..... ***** Thanks again, Connie. I look forward to any more. Metta, Sarah ====== 21787 From: Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Hi, Victor and Christine - In a message dated 4/30/03 7:37:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Christine, > > First, I would say that Right Concentration is an essential part of > the path in the sense that it is a necessary but not a sufficient > condition that leads to liberation, the cessation of dukkha. > Second, what is right concentration? > I would say that, in short, it is the mastery of the four jhanas. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html > > This is how I see it: > Mastery of the four jhanas, as well as wisdom, is an essential part > of the Noble Eightfold Path. > > Your comment is appreciated! > > Regards, > Victor > =============================== How many "votes" there are for a particular interpretation/understanding, is, of course, not the measure of truth! ;-) But, just for the record, Victor, I view this matter just as you do. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 21788 From: Sarah Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Topics of Conversation (Re: the Bogor group) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply! Like Jon and Robert K have said earlier, > concepts are assembled by mind or formed by citta, and this is how I > tend to regard concepts. Since they are formed/assembled, they are > subject to change, impermanent, does not last. Likewise for thoughts > and ideas. I tend to see concepts, thoughts, and ideas as belonging > to the formations aggregate since they are formed/assembled/created > by mind. ...... I think I’m understanding you better these days and you make good points and raise good questions in my mind. I see why you come to these conclusions and I think they may be based on the use and translation of sankhara and also the English terms ‘assembled’ and ‘formed’. In brief, when we talk about concepts/ideas/thoughts being assembled or formed by the citta, it is referring to the process of thinking itself, accompanied by sanna, vitakka, vicara and other mental factors which ‘create’ those particular objects. They are not sankhara or conditioned by kamma or other factors as the khandhas are. When the Buddha refers to ‘sabbe sankhara...’ it is just to the paramattha dhammas included in the khandhas, as I understand. I think it might be useful to look at the various ways sankhara is used in different contexts. These are discussed in N’s dictionary here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sankhaara.htm I think RobM also wrote a very helpful post on this topic (to you): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17137 Let me just requote the first part: “The definition of "sankhara" in Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines" starts, "This term has, according to its context, different shades of meaning, which should be carefully distinguished...." It then proceeds to give multiple definitions. You are probably familiar with the term "sankhara" as applied as one of the five aggregates. In this case, it means all of the cetasikas minus feeling and perception. The definition of "sankhara" when used as part of dependent origination is quite different. In dependent origination, "sankhara" is the 29 rebirth-producing cetana which fall into three classes: - Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara): cetana in the 8 maha kusala cittas and cetana in the 5 rupavacara cittas - Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara): cetana in the 12 akusala cittas - Formations of the imperturbable (anenjabhisankhara): cetana in the 4 arupavacara cittas In short, sankhara represents the 29 types of kamma (kamma = cetana)associated with the 17 lokiya kusala cittas and the 12 akusala cittas.” ***** >I also tend to see situations such as marriage or > relationship or not getting what is wanted or being with unloved also > belonging to the formation aggregate since all these situations are > formed with volition/intention. > > Thanks again for your reply!! Your comments and feedback are welcome! ..... Thanks Victor. I think the last part of Connie’s post on marriage and relationships (which I just responded to)is also relevant. I’m hoping she may also discuss it further with you;-) I’m not sure if any of this clarifies further. I do understand that the phrases ‘formed up’ and ‘formations’ can be misleading as can what some of us write here (myself included). Sometimes, like Sukin, I also feel tongue-tied, but I learn a little in the process. Look forward to your comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 21789 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as dukkha KKT --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > KKT: Allow me to pop in here. > > I think there is wisdom > in regarding a computer > (or whatever 'conventional' thing) > as something that doesn't last forever. > > Such seeing makes one more > detached from the mundane things. Thanks for coming in here. Does reflection about the impermanence of conventional objects make us more detached from mundane things? I'm not sure that it does in the long run (what is the evidence for this? ;-)). But more important is the question as to whether this kind of reflection makes us more detached from the idea of self. We all know that the body is impermanent, for example, yet this doesn't seem to help us have any less an idea of self, does it? To my understanding, insight into impermanence *as a characteristic* of conditioned phenomena can only occur when there is insight into the true nature of one of those conditioned phenomena. Jon 21790 From: Star Kid Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:08am Subject: R u suprised ??? ^.^ Dear Sandy: Hello!!! I am Kiana^^. Are you suprised? I didn't write to you for a long time. I hope you don't mind. Did you learn anything about Buddha? Do you think it is interesting? Can you tell me why. Remember take care your health, don't get sick, because H.K is in trouble with the SARS. Take care of your health, Metta Kiana. 21791 From: Star Kid Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:09am Subject: Kim......my~!* Dear Kimmy: Hi~! I'm Kiana.^^Are you suprised to hear from me? Are you interested in Buddhism? Can you tell me the reason? Do you trust it? How do you think of it? Remember take care of your health!!!^.^ Metta, Kiana. 21792 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer as conditioned Smallchap --- smallchap wrote: > Dear Jon, > > I know you are setting me up. I am a willing victim. :) Yes, I should tread carefully, if I were you ... > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > > Yes, but may I ask, Does a computer arise, and if so, what are > > some > > of the conditions for its arising (that cause it to arise)? > > > > Jon > > Yes. It does arise. > > Here are some of the conditions for it arising: > 1. the intention to build a computer; > 2. the availability of the necessary materials and components > for building a computer; > 3. the facilities; > 4. and the knowledge of building a computer. > > smallchap But is this an instance of what the Buddha was talking about when he spoke of all 'sankhara'/'conditioned dhammas' being conditioned? The knowledge that a computer is built from parts and did not spontaneously come into existence as an assembled whole is not the kind of knowledge that is peculiar to the teaching of a Buddha. To my understanding, the arising and falling away that the Buddha talked about in suttas such as M.148 quoted by Swee Boon recently is momentary rising and falling away, something that is not at all apparent to one who has not developed insight into the true nature of dhammas/fundamental phenomena. So I woud say that we need to distinguish between conventional ideas of impermanence (or conditioned nature), and impermanence (or conditioned nature) in the ultimate sense as taught by the Buddha. Jon 21793 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Swee Boon When I replied to this post of yours earlier I did not discuss the 2 passages you have quoted from the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (DN 22), which also appear in the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10), available with commentary as 'The Way of Mindfulness' by Soma Thera (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html) --------------- nidive wrote: ... SB: I do not think that the distinction between concepts and ultimate realities is that crucial. Otherwise the Buddha would have merely taught the ultimate teaching. [4] "Furthermore... just as if a sack with openings at both ends were full of various kinds of grain -- wheat, rice, mung beans, kidney beans, sesame seeds, husked rice -- and a man with good eyesight, pouring it out, were to reflect, 'This is wheat. This is rice. These are mung beans. These are kidney beans. These are sesame seeds. This is husked rice,' in the same way, monks, a monk reflects on this very body from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin and full of various kinds of unclean things: 'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html All these things in the body are merely concepts. Yet the Buddha tells us to contemplate the body in this manner. [5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.' "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html Here, the Buddha presents the ultimate teaching. Why would the Buddha present both conventional and ultimate teachings in one single sutta? If insight into the four great elements is crucial for everyone, the Buddha would not have presented so many choices as how to be mindful of the body in and of itself. --------------- J: As you know the section on mindfulness of the body is divided into 6 main parts. Your 2 passages are from the parts dealing with reflection on the repulsiveness of the body and reflection on the modes of materiality (elements, dhatu). I agree with your comment that reflection on the repulsiveness of the body was something encouraged by the Buddha. It was encouraged in a number of suttas, in the wider context of samatha bhavana. Indeed, it is included in the 40 meditation subjects in the 'Concentration' section of the Visuddhi-Magga , under the meditation subject of the recollection on 'mindfulness occupied with the body'. To my understanding, reflection on the repulsiveness of the body is not given in the sutta as an means of 'satipatthana practice' in and of itself. It is an aspect of samatha bhavana that is included in this section on mindfulness of the body in the Satipatthana Sutta to show how mindfulness can be developed while samatha is also being developed (i.e., even though the object of the contemplation is a concept). In the commentary to this passage in the Satipatthana Sutta it says: "This mindfulness has been explained in the following sections: Breathing-in-and-out; four kinds of deportment; the fourfold clear comprehension; the reflection on repulsiveness; the reflection on the elements or modes of existence [your second passage - J]; and the nine cemetery contemplations. In other words, mindfulness being discussed in the case of reflection on the repulsiveness of the body is exactly the same as the mindfulness discussed for other 5 aspects of 'mindfulness of the body', including your second passage (Refection on the elements). There are not 6 different 'practices' of mindfulness. I hope this helps clarify any apparent inconsistency in the use of conventional and ultimate references within the same sutta. Jon 21794 From: yasalalaka Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mana and other akusala Sarah and all, I thought of contributing to the discussions on the Forum on conceit (mana). It is one of the ten fetters (samyojanas), which keeps us bound to the cycle of birth and death (samasara) Five lower fetters are: Self-identity view, ( sakkaya ditti) Doubt (vicikiccha) Clinging to rules and rituals (silabbata paramasa) Sensual Desire( kama raga) Ill-will (viyapada) Five higher fetters are: Passion for form, (rupa raga) Passion for formless (arupa raga) Conceit (mana) Restlessness(uddacca) Ignorance (avijja) On reaching the stage of a stream entrant (sotapanna), one is free from, self-identity, doubt,Clinging to rules and rituals, after the stage of a stream entrant, over coming sensual desire and Ill-will, one becomes a once returner(sakadagami), when one is fully freed from the first five lower fetters he is a non returner (anagama). After that, by freeing from the five higher fetters, one becomes an Arahat – a Holy One. Conceit (mana) is a strong fetter that one can free oneself from only on becoming an Arahat.Therefore, you can imagine, until then we will be subject to mana. We have to live with it.It is very good that one is aware of the conceit in him. That helps one to diminish its effect on one self and on others. There are three types of conceit (mana): 1. Equality conceit (mana) 2. Inferiority-conceit (omana) and 3. Superiority conceit (atimana) This comes from the attachment to "self ", it can be confused with anger, jealousy, or pride. One should know which type of emotion it is , to be aware of it. Being aware of it, one may refrain from reacting to it. Being aware of it may also reduce its effect or make it temporarily disappear. Being mindful helps to keep it in check. It can be very subtle, such that one will not know it is mana, that caused your reaction. It also comes from judging others, and putting them into frames . When one knows one has mana, one should refrain from reacting to it, keep silent, and let the moment pass. Thinking of one self and the other as impermanent may help to assuage ones attitude, in the presence of rising conceit… It counts probably as a akusala cetasika based on moha. According to scriptures, "a prominent aspect of conceit is stiffness and rigidity. One''s mind feels stiff and bloated, like a python that has just swallowed some other creature. This aspect of mana is also reflected as tension in the body and posture. Its victims get big-headed and a thus may find it difficult to bow respectfully to others. It, destroys gratitude, making it difficult to acknowledge that one owes any kind of debt to another person…..one also actively conceals the virtues of others so that no one will hold them in esteem." (In this Very Life by Sayadaw U Pandita). " Arahatta Suttam (A.vi.49) Cha, bhikkhave, dhamma appahäya abhabbo arahattam sacchikätum. Katame cha? Mänam, omänam, atimänam, adhimänam, thambham, atinipätam. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cha dhamme appahäya abhabbo arahattam sacchikättum. Cha, bhikkhave, dhamma pahäya bhabbo arahattam sacchikätum. Katame cha? Mänam, omänam, atimänam, adhimänam, thambham, atinipätam. Ime kho, bhikkhave, cha dhamme pahäya bhabbo arahattam sacchikättum. Bhikkhus, without dispelling six things it is not possible to realize worthiness. What six? Pride, flying high, conceit, undue estimation of oneself, unyielding nature and falling low. Bhikkhus, without dispelling these six things it is not possible to realize worthiness. Bhikkhus, dispelling six things it is possible to realize worthiness. What six? Pride, flying high, conceit, undue estimation of oneself, unyielding nature and falling low. Bhikkhus, dispelling these six things it is possible to realize worthiness." When the Buddha after his enlightenment went to see, his former companions, the five ascetics at Isipatana.,the ascetics, saw the Buddha approaching, and said to each other that the Samana is coming back, let us not go and meet him, but as the Buddha approached, they could not help going towards him and receiving him. But they called him friend, until the Buddha reminded them thrice, that he was Tatagata, and not appropriate to address him as "friend". When the Buddha visited his Sakyan kinsman, they thought of Buddha as an inferior wandering beggar, and the Buddha using his miraculous powers created a bridge over them and walked on it, over their heads. With metta, Yasa 21795 From: m. nease Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas Dear Howard and Victor, First, I have great respect for both your understanding and the quality of your posts. That said, I hope you're both wrong about this(!), as I certainly don't ever expect to master the jhaanas. Assuming you're right, though, let me ask this: Do you think the great many laypeople in the suttanttaa who attained enlightenment were all jhaana masters? Certainly the path arose and was perfected in them. In my (often faulty) memory of the discourses, I don't recall the Buddha instructing laypeople in jhaana bhavana (corrections welcomed). My impression is that this was (is?) an activity for recluses and that 'amateur' jhaana bhavana by laypeople is a modern phenomena. In fact, it has always seemed to me to be largely the basis for the Buddha's (vastly) favorable comparisons to the life of a bhikkhu over that of a layperson--that is, that the extraordinary moral/mental purity of conduct (in the daily life of a bhikkhu) created a suitable environment for jhaana bhavana. So, again (please excuse my long-windedness), were all these laypeople jhaana masters? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 6:30 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas > In a message dated 4/30/03 7:37:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: ... > > First, I would say that Right Concentration is an essential part of > > the path in the sense that it is a necessary but not a sufficient > > condition that leads to liberation, the cessation of dukkha. > > Second, what is right concentration? > > I would say that, in short, it is the mastery of the four jhanas. ... Howard: > How many "votes" there are for a particular > interpretation/understanding, is, of course, not the measure of truth! ;-) > But, just for the record, Victor, I view this matter just as you do. ... 21796 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:27am Subject: Re: Mana and other akusala Hi Ken and Sarah, > > You asked why I have been quiet for so long; actually, I > > respond to dsg posts almost every day but rarely hit the > > "send" button. Often, I have a fear of saying the wrong > > thing. Mike has kindly suggested that this is due to > > ottappa (moral dread), but I think we all know mana > > (conceit), is the most likely culprit. > ..... > Just think of us all with metta and hit Â`sendÂ';-) As far as I'm concerned, > you always say just the right thing! I agree with Sarah here and you may like to compare with this; I write, I fear of saying the wrong thing, I consider if I should send or not, and I do so because I have wasted so much time and energy in writing, that I believe that it should be good enough. Mana + attachment here. Also I think Mike is right to some extent. I do believe that someone such as you, would be having many moments of ottapa arising as well, it can't be all mana. :-) I think the habit of judging oneself is something we all have been conditioned from very young age, it has been the way people around us use to correct our behavior. There is a feeling that if I detect my faults, I am somehow being good. But only now with dhamma do we know that it is akusala, no different from judging others. So I absolutely agree with the following. > Â"It is thanks o the Abhidhamma that we can learn what we do not know, > otherwise we may believe that we have a great deal of understanding, we > may accumulate even more conceit than we have already.Â" > > So, Sukin, just be glad there is some wise reflecting and comprehension of > these states and some realisation of their unwholesome > characteristics....otherwise it could be even worse;-) :-) > You may like to review these posts in U.P. which contain a lot of info. I > think the last one (by Jon) answers questions about mana and wrong view: > ***** > Conceit (mana) > 4072, 4405, 7594, 11570, 11650, 11866, 12931, 13626, 13674, 17732, 20227 > > Conceit vs wrong view of self > 11868, 20141 > ***** :-( Too much hard work and no time.... > I think we can all see how much time is spent concerned with ourselves in > one way or other - even now whilst wishing there was less conceit or less > thinking of self, there is still the finding of oneself as important in > one way or other. You should have seen what my initial thoughts were!! I noticed the self importance part, but I wrote something anyway. But I was also interested in knowing the answer because like I said, this was different from other akusala. I have never had resenment for more than a few minutes, and the object of lobha easily changes. But this seemed very persistent and I was wondering what it was that was feeding the general mood. I know that there is always thinking of a story, but even when I identify this story, (or maybe it is a misidentification?), it does not go away. But I have caught it in the initial stages, and during such time, it does go away. And of course I now keep this in the drawer, the same section as the imponderables. :-)) > ..... > > I can't help with your questions, sorry, they're too > > technical. But I notice that you don't make a show of > > being hard on yourself; you make an objective appraisal > > of the cetasikas involved. I should learn from that; > > putting myself down, as I often do, probably doesn't help > > anyone. People are bound to wonder, "If he says that > > about himself, what must he say about us?" > ..... > ;-) > ..... > > This leads me to a question I've been meaning to ask for > > some time: We are told that whenever kusala citta has > > the concept of another living being as its object, then > > either metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha arises with it. > > What is the case when kusala citta has the concept of > > one's own self as object? I accept that there can't be > > metta, (maybe there could be upekkha), but I wonder if > > such a kusala citta even exists. In other words, I > > wonder if all concepts of one's own self are akusala.(?) > ..... > I think it was suggested recently that adosa (non-aversion) and metta were > synonymous. I think that metta is one kind of adosa and whilst the brahma > viharas including metta can only be to others, there can in theory be > adosa with oneself as object. Adosa and alobha accompany all kusala > cittas. However, I think that moments of thinking of oneself with kusala > cittas must be extremely rare. ItÂ's easier for me to think of examples for > the Buddha reflecting on the qualities of the Tathagata, for example. > Certainly when we wish ourselves well or other common examples given, the > reflections are rooted in attachment, I think . I wonder what it would be to think of oneself with kusala...??!! > ..... > > Certainly, even an arahant has to think of himself > > conceptually from time to time -- as RobK says; how else > > could he cross the street? > ..... > Exactly. The aim is not to stop thinking about particular objects (inc. > oneself), but to understand the different dhammas. In our case, unlike the > arahantÂ's, moha and attachment would be predominant I think at these > times. > ..... > IÂ'll leave your other question as I need to read the D. Issues first. > maybe Sukin or Nina will help. Nina! not Sukin. Sukin only knows how to expand on what others have written. But I like the question, it gives me a new view of what really is a monk. Thanks to you both. Metta, Sukin. 21797 From: nidive Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts & Ultimate Realities Jon, > In other words, mindfulness being discussed in the case of reflection > on the repulsiveness of the body is exactly the same as the > mindfulness discussed for other 5 aspects of 'mindfulness of the > body', including your second passage (Refection on the elements). > There are not 6 different 'practices' of mindfulness. Yes, the mindfulness is the same. But the way of achieving it could be different. It could be either contemplating conceptually or ultimately in and of the body itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html Is there a difference between these two statements? Isn't the statement 'There is a body' conceptual? > I hope this helps clarify any apparent inconsistency in the use of > conventional and ultimate references within the same sutta. No, there is no inconsistency. Conventional or ultimate doesn't matter. There isn't a need for such a differentiation. That's why the Buddha taught both conventional and ultimate in the same sutta. Swee Boon Weight Age Gender Female Male 21798 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Abhidhamma discussion in Kraeng Kacang, no 2 Chapter 1 Theory and Practice In Kraeng Kacang we were reminded time and again that we cannot understand the Tipitaka without developing awareness and understanding of this very moment. We have heard many times that there are three levels of understanding: understanding stemming from listening and reading, pariyatti; understanding that is developed through awareness of nåma and rúpa, patipatti or practice; understanding that is the direct realization of the truth, pativedha. While we are reading texts we may become absorbed in them without any awareness of nåma and rúpa. Realities, nåma and rúpa, appear all the time, but mostly we are only thinking about them. We were reminded by Acharn Sujin that we should know that there is dhamma at this moment, a reality with its own characteristic. If we have merely theoretical knowledge, we know only the names of realities. When sati-sampajañña arises realities can be studied with direct awareness of them. Sampajañña, another term for paññå (understanding) is often translated as clear comprehension. We should remember that this is not theoretical understanding. The term sati-sampajañña (mindfulness and understanding), is also used in samatha (tranquil meditation), and there it denotes sati and pañña of the degree of discerning between akusala citta and kusala citta right at the present moment; sati-sampajañña knows whether there is attachment to calm, and it knows how to subdue defilements by means of a meditation subject. In the development of insight, sati-sampajañña is awareness and direct understanding of the characteristic of nåma or rúpa appearing at the present moment. The conditions for sati-sampajañña are the study of realities as taught in the Tipitaka and careful consideration of what one has learnt. Acharn Sujin said that without the understanding of the Abhidhamma satipatthåna cannot be developed. By Abhidhamma she did not mean theoretical knowledge of all the details of the Abhidhamma, but a basic understanding of nåma, mental phenomena, and rúpa, physical phenomena. We should know that nåma is the reality that experiences an object and rúpa is the reality that does not experience anything. People may doubt whether rúpa is real, they believe that only nåma is real. If we have doubt about the existence of rúpa, a reality that does not know anything, how can we develop right understanding of the difference between nåma and rúpa? Insight is developed in different stages and the first stage is knowing the difference between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa. If one has not reached this stage, the impermanence of nåma and rúpa can never be realized. The three levels of understanding, pariyatti, patipatti and paìivedha follow one upon the other and they must be in conformity with each other. Study, practice and realization of the truth must refer to the same basic realities. 21799 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Perfections, Ch 9. Determination, no 3 Perfections, Ch 9. Determination, no 3 From then on the Bodhisatta pretended to be dumb, cripple and deaf. His parents and the wetnurses, when taking into account the formation of the jaws of the dumb, the structure of the ears of the deaf, the hands and the feet of the crippled, noticed that all those characteristics were not to be found in him. They thought that there should be a reason for his behaviour. Therefore, they started to test the prince by giving him no milk for a whole day. Although he was hungry, he uttered no sound to make known that he wanted milk. His mother thought, ³The boy is famished, the wetnurses should give him milk² and she made the wetnurses gave him milk. They gave him milk at intervals for a whole year, but they could not discover his weak point. The wetnurses thought that children usually like cakes, dainties, fruits, toys and different kinds of special food. They gave him all those things so that they could test whether he was really handicapped, but during the five years they tested him they could not discover any weak point. Then the wetnurses thought that children usually are afraid of fire, of a wild elephant, of serpents, of a man brandishing a sword, and therefore they tested the prince with those things, but he did not see any danger in them. The Bodhisatta was unshakable in his resolution because he thought of the danger of hell. He thought, ³the danger of hell is more fearful, it is a hundredfold, a thousandfold, even a tenthousandfold more fearful.² The wetnurses who tested him in these ways did not see any weak point in the Bodhisatta. They thought that children usually like to watch mimes and therefore they arranged for an assembly of mimes, they arranged for players of conches and drums to cause deafening noises, but they could not make the Bodhisatta change his mind. They lighted lamps in the darkness or a blaze of fire to light up the darkness. They smeared his whole body with molasses and let him lie down in a place infested with flies. They did not let him bathe and made him lie down in his excrements and urine. People were sarcastic towards him, they ridiculed and scolded him, they disapproved of him, because he was laying in his own urine and excrement. They lighted pans of blazing hot fire and put these in the bed under him, they used many tricks to test him, but inspite of all this they could not make the prince change his mind. The wetnurses tested him until he was sixteen years old. They considered, ³When children are sixteen years old, no matter whether they are cripple, deaf and dumb, they all delight in what is enjoyable, or they want to see things that are worth seeing. Therefore we shall arrange for women performing dramas to seduce the prince.² They bathed him in perfumed water and adorned him like a son of the gods, they invited him to a royal suite full of pleasing things. They filled his inner chamber with flowers, with unguents and garlands, just as a dwelling of the gods. They made the women who looked as graceful as Apassara goddesses wait on the prince in order to seduce him and to cause him to take delight in them. However, the Bodhisatta, in his perfect wisdom, stopped his inhalations and exhalations, hoping that the women would not touch his body. When those women could not touch the prince¹s body, they thought, ³This boy has a rigid body, and thus, he is not a human, but he must be a yakka.² Then they all returned.