23200 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:52am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Steve and All Thanks for these quotes. I found the first to be especially relevant to this thread. To my reading, it says that while characteristics are real, they are not 'dhammas' that arise in this world (they are not 'clung to' fundamental phenomena). Perhaps the term 'modes' in the passage neatly sums it up. I had more difficlty with the second passage. I couldn't quite catch the point the author was making. If anyone wanted to give an explanation, that would be much appreciated. Jon --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Howard, Ken, Larry and Dan > I have found 2 > passages that may be of relevance to the thread. > > "These modes, (that is, the 3 characteristics) are not included in > the aggregates because they are states without individual essence > (asabhaava-dhammaa); and they are not separate from the aggregates > because they are unapprehendable without the aggregates. But they > should be understood as appropriate conceptual differences > (pa~n~natti-visesaa) that are reason for differentiation in the > explaining of dangers in the five aggregates, and which are > allowable > by common usage in respect of the five aggregates" < Visuddhimagga > Maha Tika (found in the notes on page 747 of Visuddhimagga) > > > And from `Buddhist Analysis of Matter' by Y.Karunadasa. > > When a rupa-dhamma originates, it is called rupassa jati; when it > subsists (decay), it is called rupassa jarata; when it perishes, it > is called rupassa aniccata. In addition to the rupa-dhamma which > originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no > rupa-dhammas > answering to the names :rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa > aniccata. > If these characteristics, too, were postulated as real entities, > then it would be necessary to postulate another set of (secondary) > characteristics to account for their own origination, subsistence > and > cessation. And these (secondary) characteristics would, in turn, > require another set of (secondary secondary) characteristics to > account for their origination, etc. In this way it would lead to a > process ad infinitum. And it is in order to avoid this problem of > infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as > entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they > characterize. This is the significance of the statement made in the > Mohavicchedani: "It is not correct to assume that origination > originates, decay decays and cessation ceases, because such an > assumption leads to the (fallacy) of infinite > regress(anava.t.thaana)" 23201 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, citta knows Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I hope you have also a real vacation, doing nothing! I am always > delighted > to hear from you when you are at airports or in bars. Do you do day > hikes, or longer treks? See below. This year Sarah's mother is joining us, so we are doing only day walks. However, these can also be quiet strenuous, especially here in the Matterhorn region where, as you can imagine, walks of every possible grade of difficulty are available. Tomorrow morning we have a 4:30 am start to catch the sunrise (just like the India trips!). > op 26-06-2003 13:25 schreef Jonothan Abbott op > jonoabb@y...: > > > Personally, I still find puzzling the reference to vinnana being > able > > to 'bring about the penetration of the characteristics of an > object'. > > Does anyone have any suggestions as to what this refers to > exactly? > N: It depends how we read this. Not in the same way as panna. Citta > knows > colour, sound, etc. but it is panna that understands them as > non-self. Thus, > as it is said in the Co: citta clearly knows an object (ru cheng in > Thai). > Citta knows real diamants but also knows when they are fakes. It > knows > barking of a dog, but also when you are imitating the barking, > remember from Survey? > Nina. Thanks for this explanation. Citta 'clearly knows' the object. I suppose I thought that something more than this was being suggested by the expression 'bringing about the penetration of the characteristics of an object', especially since the same expression was used to describe the function of panna. But obviously, each must be read in it's particular context. Jon 23202 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 7:19am Subject: Re: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Dan Great to see you back. Thanks for coming in on this thread, and especially for the quotes and comments in this post. I found it very ueful to read. I especially appreciated: > 5. The direct understanding of anicca only comes in the advanced > stages of insight (i.e., after namarupaparecchedañana and knowledge > of rise and fall), as discussed Samohavinodani (Dispeller of > delusion, §243): "...the characteristic of impermanence does not > appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall > owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati)...But when > continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the > characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true > essential nature." The different levels of understanding are experinced only when the necesary underlying conditions have been developed. Jon --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Nina, Howard, Steve, Larry, > I think you are right in each of your comments, Nina, and of course > there is confirmation in the texts: > > 1. Anicca must be anicca "of" a nama or rupa. 23203 From: dwlemen Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:00am Subject: Re: Single Threading & Serialization --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Dave, > > You must be a computer guy... My kind of people ;-). > Yes I am! 8 years+ as a programmer. > > In the model given in the abhidhamma, the mind experiences > one object at a time. When we see, we don't hear. When we > think about what we see or what we hear, we neither see nor > hear. This maybe contradictory (to some people) to our > experiences: this is only because the minds rise and fall > away so extremely rapidly that it seems that the hearing and > the seeing happen at the same time. > > The Buddha didn't teach about the interaction of the brains > and the sense input, so we stay mostly off this topic. It > is not taught, and probably is not essential to attaining > nibbana... > I've been debating since reading your post here whether we are talking about the same things but using different terms, or not. I think that we are not, but close. The way I understand things (this is probably not Buddhism but "Daveism"), consciousness is that awareness or "mind" and it is different than the brain, which is the place where the physical inputs are dealt with. So, the ear is always sending input to the brain, the brain is taking those inputs and "looking them up" in memories, etc. and making the decision on whether send an "interupt" to consciousness. The same for the eye, nose, taste, and touch. So, when I sitting out on Friday watching the fireworks, my ear will hear the sounds of all the people on all the blankets around mine, but the brain will filter them out so that consciousness it not bothered with them. But, if a tiny little mosquito buzzes around me, the brain will send an interupt to consciousness so I will "hear" it and swish it away. But, I think that, at that moment of hearing the bug, there is still seeing, feeling, tasting, etc. but there is not awareness of them. So, my understanding is that the brain is multi- processing, but consciousness (awareness) is single threaded. But, as I mentioned, this is my understanding of how things work, not any understanding of Buddhist teachings. I don't want to debate my theory vs. yours, and my intention is to learn where I do differ from Buddhism and how the Buddhist does understand reality. > > The Buddha teaching is truly marvelous and amazing. I know > no other person who gives teachings that are so true, > conceptually and ultimately, on all the different topics > (that I can see for myself). The teaching brings knowledge. > With knowledge, we can begin to truly turn away from > ignorance and wrong-understanding, and eventually from > attachment and grief. That is the miracle of the Buddha's > teaching. > On this, I do agree fully. In my studies so far, as I've gained real understanding of what the Buddha taught, I've either found that they matched what I've already thought, or that the Buddha had a better explaination than my own and I've happily abandoned my own theory in favor of the Buddha's. Perhaps as I gain more understanding of this aspect of his teachings, the same will happen. I do have another question for you. When Sarah and I began our talks, we started by discussing the merits or even need for meditation. What is your take on the emphasis on meditation? Are the Buddhist who are spending their time in meditation wasting their time? How do you reconcile the portions of the Buddha's teaching that seem to promote meditation with the theories here (by Sarah and others) that it is not that important? Peace, Dave 23204 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:01 AM > > But, as I mentioned, this is my understanding of how things work, not > any understanding of Buddhist teachings. I don't want to debate my > theory vs. yours, and my intention is to learn where I do differ from > Buddhism and how the Buddhist does understand reality. You may already know about this, but here are books by Nina available on-line, at the courtesy of Alan Weller, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html > I do have another question for you. When Sarah and I began our > talks, we started by discussing the merits or even need for > meditation. What is your take on the emphasis on meditation? Are > the Buddhist who are spending their time in meditation wasting their > time? How do you reconcile the portions of the Buddha's teaching > that seem to promote meditation with the theories here (by Sarah and > others) that it is not that important? > I think we have to first remember that the highest goal of the Buddha teachings are vision, knowledge (of things as they truly are), relinquishment, enlightenment, and nibbana. If we understand this truly, then we can find out for ourselves if the practice/teachings that we follow lead to all those things. Anything that leads to more attachment is not the Buddha's teachings. Are we attached to any rites and rituals? Almost certainly, but that is not the Buddha's teachings. The second thing that we should learn before we follow other people blindly, regardless of how they tell you about their experiences, is to learn what is meant by meditation, bhavana in pali, really means (purpose and conditions). Bhavana means development, and this is actually two-folds: tranquil development, and insight development. Insight development is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teachings, even though the Buddha taught and praised the benefits of tranquil meditation too. Both types of development require wisdom and knowledge about different mental states. For many of the places that I have gone to meditate, I don't think the taught practices increase the level of understandings about the mental states. For these places, I am pretty sure they are not the right practices. There are some places that have teachings that do increase wisdom, but they are all mixed up with the attachment to achievements (either sati or the different vipassana nana, and even the supramundane path itself), which would lead to the wrong practices for the ignorant that don't understand the differences. I personally think that a wise person would do the right thing. Hence, it is most important to understand how things work, and then because of that understanding, the right development will be developed. Understanding come from listening to the right people, and wise consideration. I think we should develop all sorts of kusala, however we can, but I don't think we can do this well (or better) without better understanding. kom 23205 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:53am Subject: Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and all, I have some questions for you: What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you describe it? What kind of phenomena do people try to understand with this model? How do you know that the minds rise and fall extremely rapidly? Do you measure the speed or frequency? How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds rising and falling have to do with the Buddha's teaching? You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What is the nature of this knowledge? In other words, what does one know with this knowledge? You comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Dave, > [snip] > > In the model given in the abhidhamma, the mind experiences > one object at a time. When we see, we don't hear. When we > think about what we see or what we hear, we neither see nor > hear. This maybe contradictory (to some people) to our > experiences: this is only because the minds rise and fall > away so extremely rapidly that it seems that the hearing and > the seeing happen at the same time. > > The Buddha didn't teach about the interaction of the brains > and the sense input, so we stay mostly off this topic. It > is not taught, and probably is not essential to attaining > nibbana... > > All ultimate realities are conditioned. They cannot rise > without causes, and they must rise when the causes are > complete. This is how the mind works. When there are > conditions for seeing, seeing must occur. When there are > conditions for thinking, thinking must occur. However, not > knowing the conditionalities of all things, we have the idea > (gross, subtle, or very subtle) that "we" make or will these > things to happen. You can move your hands, no? How does > that happen? Is it you or there are conditions for the hand > to be moved? Do we ever have the situations when we want > things happen a certain way, but things go other way anyway? > The mind cannot rise without causes, and they must rise when > the causes are complete. The mind rises one at a time, > conditioned by all other conditioning realities. > > The Buddha teaching is truly marvelous and amazing. I know > no other person who gives teachings that are so true, > conceptually and ultimately, on all the different topics > (that I can see for myself). The teaching brings knowledge. > With knowledge, we can begin to truly turn away from > ignorance and wrong-understanding, and eventually from > attachment and grief. That is the miracle of the Buddha's > teaching. > > kom 23206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Dear Larry, Jim and all, Do not expect much from me, this is only a trial, maybe off the mark. Larry, you know some Pali. If you like more, join Pali yahoo. Everyday we have a simple exercise, with translation. It is a relaxing way of learning. Subcommentary to the Visuddhimagga. (See below for text without Pali) Jim writes: Nina: First a few words: vaara: turn, round, opportunity, (actual) moment (that presents itself). It is a key word here, seems contrary to book knowledge. It could be the moment presenting itself? gantha: bond, fetter, but in later Pali also: book. sajjhaayati: to study. sajjhaaya: study. After aaramma.na, object, we have: -ika, this makes the word into an adjective (Warder p. 187, bahubbiihi compound). yathaa ta.m: as it is, as if, as. sambhavati: to be produced. To be present. paricaya m. : practice. pagu.na: well practised, competent. sandhaa: connection. ~naayaa: method. logic (PED gives: ~naayaa gantha: book on logic.) ****** Text with Pali: > katha.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m lakkha.napa.tivedha.m paapetii ti? But how does consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) bring about the penetration of the characteristics? > pa~n~naaya dassitamaggena. By way of the path seen by wisdom. lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani pa.tivijjhitva pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato paricayavasena > ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied by understanding, because the practice (paricaya) has become skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na > vi~n~naayanti. even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. As to the "penetration of characteristics", and what is said in connection of merely making the characteristics the object, this is not penetration. ****** English text: But how does consciousness bring about the penetration of the characteristics? By way of the path seen by wisdom. There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied by understanding, because the practice has become skilled by insight that has as object the characteristics and is evolving after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various occasions (presenting themselves); even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. As to "penetration of characteristics", and what is said in connection of merely making the characteristics the object, this is not penetration. ***** Remarks: In the Visuddhimagga I see the definition of pativedha as: penetration for the four noble Truths. The penetration of nibbana, the cessation of dukkha is accomplished at the moment of enlightenment. However, this is a long rpocess. First the three general characteristics have to be realized again and again. Even when the characteristics are the object this does not mean that they are penetrated, that their true nature is known. When insight is being developed, there are many processes of citta succeeding one another, and in between processes of citta accompanied by panna there are also processes of citta without panna, but these can still have the characteristics as object, because cittas arise and fall away very rapidly. And also such moments can be reckoned as being with vipassana, because it is being developed time and again, and they are alternated with cittas that realize the characteristics. There are moments of intellectual understanding, book study, thinking of the characteristics, but then the characteristics are not penetrated at the actual moments they appear. Nina. 23207 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] I wish all of you Dear Vital, Thank you for your good wishes to all of us. I am glad to see you hgere again. See below. op 29-06-2003 20:14 schreef vital op vitalmoors@h...: > The fact we meet on out way, are facts... we cannot change them > The only thing we can do is accept them and try to make the best of it. > We can not change other person, we can not change the reality > The only thing we can change is ourself, the manner we see te reality and > the manner we act. N: I like this as a reminder, because we often want the other person to be different from what he is, and this is not realistic. It is a source of conflicts in the circle of relatives and friends. We cannot change realities, how true. We like what we see or hear to be different but this is not possible. The dukkha of life. V: All what we do will rebounce at us... > So let do good things.... N: Very well expressed: kamma and vipaka. V: We don't have to play a movie, we can be who we are... > You can act as you are, dont hide things for others... > If you can lose your mask and accept who you are... nothing can disturb you > in giving love and friendship to all people. N: A good reminder to be sincere, not pretending to be better than we are, this is conceit. There are moments that we do pretend to be better than we really are, but we should be honest to ourselves and realize such moments. Thank you for your message with good reminders, Nina. 23208 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inquiry to Nina... Dear Kio, Thank you for your kind and pleasant letter with your questions which are very good. I shall take my time and answer a few at a time. Appreciating, Nina. op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: I am > reading your books of `survey' and `daily life' I found on the net. > In the meantime, if you can respond to my question at your leisure, > that would be most helpful. 23209 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 3:10pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > I thought of you the other day when buying 'the best' cones at the > Valley markets. I've put my son onto them as well. Thanks.:-) > dear Chris, I'm wondering what 'cones' are - maybe I have shown you how to choose the best, but I must call it something different, bec. I don't recognise 'cones'. > I don't see how sitting and watching the breath is any different to > slowly, and with concentration, doing any other set practice - yoga, > tai chi, jogging etc. If you view it as a wellness tool, and it has > beneficial effects, why not try it for a while? You are not seeing > it as a necessary step for a 'self' to achieve enlightenment, and you > would not neglect contact with admirable friends, hearing and > reflecting on the true Dhamma, and practice in accordance with the > Dhamma. I think if sitting in any form is helpful to you - just do > it, don't stress about it. :-) Thanks for this. No amount of stressing is going to make it right practice anyway, is it. Even while sitting cross-legged doing a breathing practice, there can be moments of awareness of no- self. I liked RobK's post [22897], and I also found it very helpful. I guess concern about 'wrong practice' can be known for what it is, maybe dosa, maybe not, only panna can know and that's really what the study of the dhamma is all about, to develop panna to a degree where defilements are eradicated. mmmmmmmm! By the way, did we ever sort out the > question tossed around at Cooran about 'Is Nibbana another term for > annihilation'? > No, but I've decided it's a non question, meaning I don't believe Nibbana is another term for annihilation. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23210 From: Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Hi Nina, I'm too old to learn a language but this makes sense to me. Thanks very much. I would just like to expand a little on the section on learning: There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied by understanding, because the practice (paricaya) has become skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa na vi~n~naayanti. even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. L: Take the case of someone who has studied mathematics (skilled in the study of books) and penetrated the significance of various formulas again and again. After a while his consciousness will automatically see the significance of a formula without the specfic insight of a moment of understanding. This is a case of consciousness penetrating without panna cetasika. There is realization of the significance of a characteristic because of many moments in the past of direct understanding. I agree penetration of any of the three characteristics is to realize that the object is not worth grasping. Eventually this culminates in a path moment that makes a big difference, but until then moments of "tender insight" make a little difference. When impermanence, dukkha, or anatta is an object of consciousness and a different kind of understanding that does not result in relinquishment then that is not penetration in this sense. This could be abstract or direct understanding. A farmer could understand impermanence as a time to plant and a time to harvest. Larry 23211 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Concepts and Characteristics Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3 Hi Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Steve and All > > Thanks for these quotes. I found the first to be especially relevant > to this thread. To my reading, it says that while characteristics > are real, they are not 'dhammas' that arise in this world (they are > not 'clung to' fundamental phenomena). Perhaps the term 'modes' in > the passage neatly sums it up. > > I had more difficlty with the second passage. I couldn't quite catch > the point the author was making. If anyone wanted to give an > explanation, that would be much appreciated. > > Jon My understanding of the below passage is; that because the characteristics of arising,decay and aniccata are not paramattha Dhammas, then those characteristics have no characteristics of arising,decay and aniccata. Steve > --- bodhi2500 wrote: > > And from `Buddhist Analysis of Matter' by Y.Karunadasa. > > > > When a rupa-dhamma originates, it is called rupassa jati; when it > > subsists (decay), it is called rupassa jarata; when it perishes, it > > is called rupassa aniccata. In addition to the rupa-dhamma which > > originates, subsists (decay) and perishes, there are no > > rupa-dhammas > > answering to the names :rupassa jati, rupassa jarata and rupassa > > aniccata. > > If these characteristics, too, were postulated as real entities, > > then it would be necessary to postulate another set of (secondary) > > characteristics to account for their own origination, subsistence > > and > > cessation. And these (secondary) characteristics would, in turn, > > require another set of (secondary secondary) characteristics to > > account for their origination, etc. In this way it would lead to a > > process ad infinitum. And it is in order to avoid this problem of > > infinite regress that the characteristics are not recognized as > > entities distinct from, and as real as, the dhammas which they > > characterize. This is the significance of the statement made in the > > Mohavicchedani: "It is not correct to assume that origination > > originates, decay decays and cessation ceases, because such an > > assumption leads to the (fallacy) of infinite > > regress(anava.t.thaana)" 23212 From: Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 0:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Victor (and Kom) - Victor, I share your interest in a response to this matter. ;-) I have never quite seen why we should *care* whether there are 17 cittas per single rupa! What does that information, even directly seen, should it actually be both true and observable, do for us? Why do we need to see, fully and directly, anything other than the impersonality, insubstantiality, inconstancy, and unsatisfactoriness of things? With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/30/03 12:54:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Kom and all, > > I have some questions for you: > > What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you describe it? What > kind of phenomena do people try to understand with this model? > > How do you know that the minds rise and fall extremely rapidly? Do > you measure the speed or frequency? > > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds rising and falling > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What is the nature of > this knowledge? In other words, what does one know with this > knowledge? > > You comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23213 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Dear Nina (also Larry and Jon), > Dear Larry, Jim and all, > Do not expect much from me, this is only a trial, maybe off the > mark. Thanks for your translation and general remarks. I'm still not clear on the Pali, so what follows is my attempt at an alternative translation with some notes. I haven't tried to correct anything you translated as nothing stands out as definitely needing a correction but there's room for some improvement. [...] > lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya hi anekavaara.m lakkha.naani > pa.tivijjhitvaa pa.tivijjhitvaa pavattamaanaaya pagu.nabhaavato > paricayavasena ~naa.navippayuttacittena pi vipassanaa sambhavati, > > There is also insight with the consciousness that is unaccompanied > by understanding, because the practice (paricaya) has become >\skilled (pagu.nabhaavato, by skilled development) by insight that > has as object the characteristics (lakkha.naaramma.nikavipassanaaya), > and is evolving (pavattamaanaaya) after it has penetrated again and > again the characteristics at various moments (presenting themselves); For insight also comes to increase with the consciousness dissociated from knowledge by the influence of (repeated) practice owing to the skilful nature of the insight (having characteristics as object) occurring after having repeatedly penetrated the characteristics many times, [Instead of 'there is' for sambhavati, I have 'comes to increase' (not in PED). This is based on the Saddaniti definition: sambhavatiiti su.t.thu bhavati, vuddhi.m viruu.lhi.m vepulla.m aapajjati --p.4. I find this portion to be the most difficult one to make sense of and I'm afraid my translation fails to convey a clear meaning. I think the problem lies with understanding the syntax of 'by influence of ... practice', 'owing to the competent nature', and 'of the insight ... many times' and also which of the several meanings of 'pagu.na-' and 'paricaya-' really applies here.] > yathaa ta.m pagu.nassa ganthassa sajjhaayane ~naayaagataa pi vaaraa > na vi~n~naayanti. > > even as in the case of someone who is skilled at methodical study > from books, the actual moments are not discerned by him. as, for instance, in the studying of a skilful textbook, the times come to the right method are also not known. [~naayaagataa = ~naaya+aagata, cp. Skt. nyaayaagata (defined by Apte as 'rightly got'). It appears that comparison is being made to kusala consciousness without knowledge. Although insights into the meaning of things stated in the book are arising, they go unnoticed by the ordinary consciousness.] > lakkha.napa.tivedhan ti ca lakkha.naana.m aarammanakara.namatta.m > sandhaaya vutta.m, na pa.tivijjhana.m. > > As to the "penetration of characteristics", and what is said in > connection of merely making the characteristics the object, this > is not penetration. And "the penetration of the characteristics" is stated in reference to merely making the characteristics the object, not to penetrating (the characteristics). [When I first read this in Pali I thought Dhammapala was disagreeing with Buddhaghosa or, at any rate, downplaying his comment. In spite of still not being able to quite grasp what Dhammapala is really getting at, I think it would be fair to say that the actual penetration of the characteristics can never occur in a consciousness dissociated from panna. Perhaps what can occur is that while a ~naa.navippayuttacitta can have general characteristics as object it is possible that using this as a support a subsequent ~naa.nasampayuttacitta can penetrate the characteristic. So it's not so much consciousness bringing about the penetration per se but in helping panna to do so.] Best wishes, Jim 23214 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, I hope you don't mind me replying to you separately from Victor. It is easier to write shorter email! > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:59 PM > > Hi, Victor (and Kom) - > > Victor, I share your interest in a > response to this matter. ;-) I have > never quite seen why we should *care* whether > there are 17 cittas per single > rupa! What does that information, even directly > seen, should it actually be > both true and observable, do for us? Why do we > need to see, fully and directly, > anything other than the impersonality, > insubstantiality, inconstancy, and > unsatisfactoriness of things? > Let me ask you a question Howard. In the tipitakas (even without counting the Abhidhamma), there are many stories about different things including heaven, hell, hungry ghosts, demons, characteristics of a good wife and of a householder, etc. It's not, on the surface, about realities and the 5 kandhas. Why do you think the Buddha mentioned all these stories? He said he did not speak unless 5 factors are met: true, useful (referring to nibbana), appropriate with time and person, with captivating speech, with Metta (and another thing which slipped my mind) Do you know that the Buddha's father reached Sotapanna on hearing about the benefits of gifts to the monks. We hear the same story, but yet we haven't attained the same wisdom as the king. Why is this? I personally have a strong faith that the Buddha teachings are useful to the person receiving the teaching: it just happens that we aren't exactly the person receiving the teaching. kom 23215 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:53 AM > > > Hi Kom and all, > > I have some questions for you: > > What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you > describe it? In short, the 4 noble truths. > What > kind of phenomena do people try to understand > with this model? To first understand dhamma as dhamma, that there are nothing beyond the 5 kandhas in and out of this body. > How do you know that the minds rise and fall > extremely rapidly? Do > you measure the speed or frequency? The Buddha/the ancient commentaries described it. How do you know there is hell and heaven? How about next life and previous life? How about beings that are spontaneously reborn? > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds > rising and falling > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? There are stories about the Bodhisatta as a peacock who could fly so fast he looks like a blur. The king asked the Bodhisatta if there is anything that is faster, and he said the mind. If we remember that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the current moment better. We shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we don't yet understand (or appreciate). The Buddha speaks what is useful. > > You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What > is the nature of > this knowledge? In other words, what does one > know with this > knowledge? > Panna and wisdom is a nama (mentality), just like anger or attachments. It knows its objects, which can be either nama and rupa. We often hear panna described as the reality that penetrates the true characteristics of other realities, comprehension, all-around knowledge, bright lamp (pradip), bright light, vision... By knowing the characteristics of the true realities, we begin to become untangled from the wrongs view of self, wrong views of permanence, wrong views of sukha, and wrong views of beauty. kom 23216 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 1:36am Subject: Azita - Cones was (Re: Inquiry to Nina...) Dear Azita, Cones come in little boxes of six or eight - I think you said Darshan from India were the best, you remember ... the ones with the sandal wood fragrance we bought at the Queensland University market day, together with the carved wooden burner, when we went to hear the lecture by the Ven. Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari. I can't think what else you would call them - it has 'cones' printed on the box (round pyramids?). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > > > dear Chris, > I'm wondering what 'cones' are - maybe I have shown you how > to choose the best, but I must call it something different, bec. I > don't recognise 'cones'. > 23217 From: Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/1/03 2:15:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Dear Howard, > > I hope you don't mind me replying to you separately from > Victor. It is easier to write shorter email! > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. I'm sure your comments are of interest to Victor and all the other list members as well. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:59 PM > > > >Hi, Victor (and Kom) - > > > > Victor, I share your interest in a > >response to this matter. ;-) I have > >never quite seen why we should *care* whether > >there are 17 cittas per single > >rupa! What does that information, even directly > >seen, should it actually be > >both true and observable, do for us? Why do we > >need to see, fully and directly, > >anything other than the impersonality, > >insubstantiality, inconstancy, and > >unsatisfactoriness of things? > > > > Let me ask you a question Howard. In the tipitakas (even > without counting the Abhidhamma), there are many stories > about different things including heaven, hell, hungry > ghosts, demons, characteristics of a good wife and of a > householder, etc. It's not, on the surface, about realities > and the 5 kandhas. Why do you think the Buddha mentioned > all these stories? He said he did not speak unless 5 > factors are met: true, useful (referring to nibbana), > appropriate with time and person, with captivating speech, > with Metta (and another thing which slipped my mind) > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The realms of possible birth are the consequences of volitional action, and are clearly of importance to people. Likewise important to us are the proper ways to conduct our lives. So, now, I have answered your question. I still find unanswered by you the importance of the so precise relative speed of cittas compared to rupas. In the Sutta Pitaka, the Buddha, I believe just once, in response to a query, pointed out that the mind shouldn't be taken for a self, a self being generally understood as something permanent, because mind changes even faster than form. Now that was a good, brief teaching directed to a specific inquiry, making a true but informal point, and leaving it at that. Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. First of all, how they did the clocking is an interesting question! But that aside, and aside from the fact that 17 is my favorite prime number ;-), I still question the importance of this numerical information. The Buddha had made a good point (he was the best of teachers!), and the scholastics then took it and ruined it, as I see it, by establishing a useless, dry, and lifeless "fact" - a piece of "scientific" data comparable to the medieval Christian determinations of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! ------------------------------------------------------ > > Do you know that the Buddha's father reached Sotapanna on > hearing about the benefits of gifts to the monks. We hear > the same story, but yet we haven't attained the same wisdom > as the king. Why is this? > > I personally have a strong faith that the Buddha teachings > are useful to the person receiving the teaching: it just > happens that we aren't exactly the person receiving the > teaching. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Me too. I just do not believe that the Buddha ever said anything special about the number 17. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23218 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 7:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Quantum Theory is Abhidhamma! Azita and All --- gazita2002 wrote: > dear Kom, ... > I understand you are 'standing in' for Sarah, > while she is tramping around the Swiss alps. > Good work, Kom, so important, I benefit as I'm > sure others do also. > Patience, courage and good cheer. > Azita Well said, Azita. Kom is doing a great job, and Sarah and I are very much appreciating reading his (and others') posts. Jon 23219 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 6:49am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:32 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > I still find unanswered by you the > importance of the so precise > relative speed of cittas compared to rupas. In > the Sutta Pitaka, the Buddha, I > believe just once, in response to a query, > pointed out that the mind shouldn't be > taken for a self, a self being generally > understood as something permanent, > because mind changes even faster than form. Now > that was a good, brief teaching > directed to a specific inquiry, making a true but > informal point, and leaving > it at that. Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it > seems to me, picked up on this, > and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times > as fast as rupas. First of > all, how they did the clocking is an interesting > question! But that aside, and > aside from the fact that 17 is my favorite prime > number ;-), I still > question the importance of this numerical > information. The Buddha had made a good > point (he was the best of teachers!), and the > scholastics then took it and ruined > it, as I see it, by establishing a useless, dry, > and lifeless "fact" - a > piece of "scientific" data comparable to the > medieval Christian determinations of > how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! K. Sujin actually said many time that the teachings, both in the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most excelled in wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha to progress in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). I did not answer you directly the first time because I hope that an indirect answer would suffice (which I still think it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as being something "extra" to the Buddha's teaching, I think that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash (for you). I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only causes and effects. The dhammas roll on uninterrupted regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate conditions that this is no longer the case. It also teaches one to be careful. When we may think that right now, we are at peace and mindful, that because the citta proceeds at its own speed, there are bound to be attachments to the dhammas. For example, some people believe that the volitional factor is important in the development of the path, but we can see it for ourselves that when "we" intend to have mindfulness, is that attachment or is that wisdom? Knowing (in general) the speed and the subtleties of the mind helps one to be careful and to investigate thoroughly --- there is already attachment, the samudhaya of all becomings, to results, and one doesn't even know it. Another reason why this might be useful to others is because some people like things to be more concrete rather than more general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) may be insufficient for the person to hold the person attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the fact that the mind is fast. I am sure that being a teacher, you must have found that people are different. For some, being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. kom 23220 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: Kom Tukovinit To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:49 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Just on this point, > Another reason why this might be useful to others is because > some people like things to be more concrete rather than more > general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) > may be insufficient for the person to hold the person > attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the > fact that the mind is fast. I am sure that being a teacher, > you must have found that people are different. For some, > being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the > specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. I think it's true, just generally, that the tipitaka's many different modes of expression are more or less useful to different individuals mainly because of sankhaarakhandha. The Buddha gave this advice a brahman that I think is applicable to laypeople today: "When, for one who speaks of what has been heard... what has been sensed... what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities increase and skillful mental qualities decrease, then that sort of thing should not be spoken about. But when, for one who speaks of what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities decrease and skillful mental qualities increase, then that sort of thing should be spoken about." Anguttara Nikaya IV.183 Suta Sutta On What is Heard (To Vassakara the brahman, the minister to the king of Magadha) It's up to the individual to judge what the many modes of expression in the tipitaka --jatakas, abhidhamma or whatever--lead, for that person, in discussions, to the decrease of unskillful mental qualities and the increase of skillful mental qualities. Some of us on the list have come at least tentatively to the conclusion that discussion of the abhidhamma, commentaries and so on lead to the decrease of unskillful mental qualities and the increase of skillful mental qualities and others have come to the opposite conclusion. Personally, I see no virtue in the disparagement of either point of view. I, however, come here for discussion of abhdihamma. mike 23221 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom, Thank you for your reply. The mind is fickle, unruly, agitated, not calm, swift, and unsteady, if left unguarded, untamed, uncontrolled. A guarded, tamed, well- directed mind brings happiness. The Four Noble Truths are not model. Understanding dhamma as dhamma, that there are nothing beyond the 5 kandhas in and out of this body is not the Four Noble Truths. It might sound dogmatic, but Kom, knowing that there is hell and heaven, that there are beings that are spontaneously reborn is right view. How do I know that there is hell and heaven, that there are beings that are spontaneously reborn? I know it from the teaching of the Buddha. Why do I see it as right view? Because it is beneficial, wholesome, conducive to the cessation of dukkha. You said that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the current moment better. Do you mean that the goal is to realize liberation, the cessation of dukkha? You said that we shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we don't yet understand (or appreciate). What teachings are you talking about? Thank you again for the reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:53 AM > > > > > > Hi Kom and all, > > > > I have some questions for you: > > > > What is the model given in the abhidhamma as you > > describe it? > > In short, the 4 noble truths. > > > What > > kind of phenomena do people try to understand > > with this model? > > To first understand dhamma as dhamma, that there are nothing > beyond the 5 kandhas in and out of this body. > > > How do you know that the minds rise and fall > > extremely rapidly? Do > > you measure the speed or frequency? > > The Buddha/the ancient commentaries described it. How do > you know there is hell and heaven? How about next life and > previous life? How about beings that are spontaneously > reborn? > > > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds > > rising and falling > > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > There are stories about the Bodhisatta as a peacock who > could fly so fast he looks like a blur. The king asked the > Bodhisatta if there is anything that is faster, and he said > the mind. > > If we remember that the goal of studying (sikha) is to > understand the current moment better. We shouldn't be > bothered by the teachings that we don't yet understand (or > appreciate). The Buddha speaks what is useful. > > > > > You say that the teaching brings knowledge. What > > is the nature of > > this knowledge? In other words, what does one > > know with this > > knowledge? > > > > Panna and wisdom is a nama (mentality), just like anger or > attachments. It knows its objects, which can be either nama > and rupa. We often hear panna described as the reality that > penetrates the true characteristics of other realities, > comprehension, all-around knowledge, bright lamp (pradip), > bright light, vision... > > By knowing the characteristics of the true realities, we > begin to become untangled from the wrongs view of self, > wrong views of permanence, wrong views of sukha, and wrong > views of beauty. > > kom 23222 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization [Howard] Dear Howard, You write: "Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, and presented a 'fact' that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. First of all, how they did the clocking is an interesting question!" Dan replies: I don't think there was any clocking, so to speak. Instead, this "17" was inferred from piecing together proximity conditions enumerated in Patthana -- at least that's what U Narada writes in his "Guide to Conditional Relations, vol 1." This makes sense to me, but I'm not convinced that it is always 17. Does it matter? Well, the exact numbers surely don't, but what the mind goes through when processing rupas is important. Howard writes: "I still question the importance of this numerical information." Dan replies: I can think of a lot of better things to do than to question the importance of this numerical information! "Just note 'papañca, papañca' and direct the mind back to the primary object of meditation." [BTW: Did you ever do a Mahasi-style meditation retreat?] Dan 23223 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Kom, > I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you > would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many > details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process > and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give > a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only > causes and effects. The dhammas roll on uninterrupted > regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. > The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > conditions that this is no longer the case. > Where does Right Effort fit in here? It sounds like you are describing a fixed, deterministic system. My understanding was that, reality was actually a complex mixture of fixed cause / effect, and present moment decisions (hence "free will"). Peace, Dave 23224 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's teaching? Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Kom and Howard, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kom Tukovinit > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 6:49 AM > Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > Just on this point, > > > Another reason why this might be useful to others is because > > some people like things to be more concrete rather than more > > general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) > > may be insufficient for the person to hold the person > > attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the > > fact that the mind is fast. I am sure that being a teacher, > > you must have found that people are different. For some, > > being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the > > specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. > > I think it's true, just generally, that the tipitaka's many different modes > of expression are more or less useful to different individuals mainly > because of sankhaarakhandha. > > The Buddha gave this advice a brahman that I think is applicable to > laypeople today: > > "When, for one who speaks of what has been heard... what has been sensed... > what has been cognized, unskillful mental qualities increase and skillful > mental qualities decrease, then that sort of thing should not be spoken > about. But when, for one who speaks of what has been cognized, unskillful > mental qualities decrease and skillful mental qualities increase, then that > sort of thing should be spoken about." > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.183 > > Suta Sutta > On What is Heard > (To Vassakara the brahman, the minister to the king of Magadha) > > It's up to the individual to judge what the many modes of expression in the > tipitaka --jatakas, abhidhamma or whatever--lead, for that person, in > discussions, to the decrease of unskillful mental qualities and the increase > of skillful mental qualities. > > Some of us on the list have come at least tentatively to the conclusion that > discussion of the abhidhamma, commentaries and so on lead to the decrease of > unskillful mental qualities and the increase of skillful mental qualities > and others have come to the opposite conclusion. Personally, I see no > virtue in the disparagement of either point of view. I, however, come here > for discussion of abhdihamma. > > mike 23225 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:58am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:55 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, > > Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: > > Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's > teaching? > > Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? > > Peace, > Victor > We keep coming that to this question! One camp says yes, and the other says no. Oh, well, go figure... kom 23226 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and all, And it comes down to one question: What is the Buddha's teaching? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Victor, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:55 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > > > > Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, > > > > Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: > > > > Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's > > teaching? > > > > Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? > > > > Peace, > > Victor > > > > We keep coming that to this question! One camp says yes, and the other says > no. Oh, well, go figure... > > kom 23227 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:50 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Dear Kom, > > > > I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you > > would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many > > details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process > > and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give > > a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only > > causes and effects. The dhammas roll on uninterrupted > > regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. > > The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be > > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). > > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > > conditions that this is no longer the case. > > > > Where does Right Effort fit in here? It sounds like you are > describing a fixed, deterministic system. My understanding was that, > reality was actually a complex mixture of fixed cause / effect, and > present moment decisions (hence "free will"). > > Whenever there is mindfulness, at that moment there is right effort. Whenever there is attachment, at the moment there is the wrong effort. Right effort supports the other path factors, but it too is conditioned by other causes. What are the causes of right efforts? Wanting more right efforts? Regardless of whether or not one wants the right efforts, if there are conditions for right efforts to arise, it arises. Cause and effect. How can anything be free if everything is conditioned (by so many factors)? Is it deterministic? For very few, it actually is. The Buddha was predicted 4 aeons ago, by another Buddha, that he would become a sammasambuddha - it becomes deterministic 4 eons ago for him, even though he had strived for buddhahood much longer than that. For most, it's interactions of kamma, accumulations, right efforts ( :-) ) and other conditions (weather, position in life, etc.) kom 23228 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:09am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 1 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 1 The Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² defines the perfection of equanimity, upekkhå, as follows: Equanimity has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality; its function is to see things impartially; its manifestation is the subsiding of attraction and repulsion; reflection upon the fact that all beings inherit the results of their own kamma is its proximate cause. The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, it is non-disturbance by controversial conduct of people or by trying events. If we do not habitually develop satipatthåna, we are easily affected by attachment and aversion, and the citta is not calm. We encounter outside objects which cause sadness and distress. Our unhappy mood is conditioned by unpleasant objects which appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense. People who are free from sorrow are unaffected by attachment and aversion with regard to people and events, and this means that they have developed the perfection of equanimity. When people see someone who kills a snake, they believe that they have loving- kindness and compassion for the snake that is being killed, but in reality they are disturbed by aversion towards the person who kills the snake. One should be aware and consider the citta at that moment: what type of citta arises when one thinks of the person who kills the snake? We may not have loving-kindness, but then, we can have equanimity when we realize that everyone receives the results of his deeds. When kusala cittas arise there may be loving kindness and there may also be compassion, one feels sorry for the person who commits akusala kamma, since he will receive the result of akusala kamma. When equanimity arises, we shall not be disturbed or utter unsuitable speech to someone who commits akusala kamma. Loving-kindness or equanimity arise with kusala citta. We should not take akusala for kusala. We should not believe that akusala dhamma is good and that we should utter strong language to the person who commits akusala kamma. The citta which is disturbed is akusala citta. If we develop paññå we can know the characteristic of the citta that is stable, unaffected by attachment and aversion. Then we can further develop the perfection of equanimity. Wise attention, yoniso manasikåra, is essential. When we listen to the Dhamma, we may be inclined to think that we should act in a particular way so that we have wise attention or can abandon defilements. However, if we understand realities as non-self, the question whether we should act in a particular way will be solved. If we do not reflect on the practice of the Bodhisatta in each of his lives and if we do not evaluate our own practice in this life and compare it with his practice, we shall not know that it will take an endlessly long time to abandon defilements. 23229 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Victor Again, the 4 noble truths. But what are the four noble truths? Always the same, but yet very different. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:04 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Hi Kom and all, > > And it comes down to one question: > > What is the Buddha's teaching? > > Peace, > Victor 23230 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and Dave, The Buddha did not teach right effort with a philosophical view of determinism or free will. The view of determinism or free will is irrelevant. What is right effort? To quote from Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta An Analysis of the Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Dave, [snip] > > > > Where does Right Effort fit in here? It sounds like you are > > describing a fixed, deterministic system. My understanding was that, > > reality was actually a complex mixture of fixed cause / effect, and > > present moment decisions (hence "free will"). > > > > > > Whenever there is mindfulness, at that moment there is right effort. > Whenever there is attachment, at the moment there is the wrong effort. > Right effort supports the other path factors, but it too is conditioned by > other causes. What are the causes of right efforts? Wanting more right > efforts? Regardless of whether or not one wants the right efforts, if there > are conditions for right efforts to arise, it arises. Cause and effect. > How can anything be free if everything is conditioned (by so many factors)? > Is it deterministic? For very few, it actually is. The Buddha was > predicted 4 aeons ago, by another Buddha, that he would become a > sammasambuddha - it becomes deterministic 4 eons ago for him, even though he > had strived for buddhahood much longer than that. > > For most, it's interactions of kamma, accumulations, right efforts ( :-) ) > and other conditions (weather, position in life, etc.) > > kom 23231 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom and all, Then let's focus on the four noble truths, not some conceptual model/construct of mental/cognitive process. What are the four noble truths? Dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. Thank you for your reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Victor > > Again, the 4 noble truths. But what are the four noble truths? Always the > same, but yet very different. > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:04 AM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > > > > Hi Kom and all, > > > > And it comes down to one question: > > > > What is the Buddha's teaching? > > > > Peace, > > Victor 23232 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:17 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > You said that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the > current moment better. Do you mean that the goal is to realize > liberation, the cessation of dukkha? Yes, Victor, but we all have to start somewhere. Some people think that this realization can be now and immediate, but they don't know that thinking about it and realizing it are two very different thing. Understanding that there is nothing (that can be realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first step toward this liberation. > > You said that we shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we > don't yet understand (or appreciate). What teachings are you > talking about? One follows... > > > > > > How does the speed (or frequency?) of the minds > > > rising and falling > > > have to do with the Buddha's teaching? > > kom 23233 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 11:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom, Then the goal is to realize liberation, the cessation of dukkha. When you said that understanding that there is nothing (that can be realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first step toward this liberation, do you mean that knowing the four noble truths is the first step toward liberation, the cessation of dukkha? Thank you for your reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Victor, > [snip] > > You said that the goal of studying (sikha) is to understand the > > current moment better. Do you mean that the goal is to realize > > liberation, the cessation of dukkha? > > Yes, Victor, but we all have to start somewhere. Some people think that > this realization can be now and immediate, but they don't know that thinking > about it and realizing it are two very different thing. Understanding that > there is nothing (that can be realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the > first step toward this liberation. > > > > > You said that we shouldn't be bothered by the teachings that we > > don't yet understand (or appreciate). What teachings are you > > talking about? > > > One follows... > [snip] > > kom 23234 From: dwlemen Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 11:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Kom and Dave, > > The Buddha did not teach right effort with a philosophical view of > determinism or free will. The view of determinism or free will is > irrelevant. > > What is right effort? > > To quote from > > Samyutta Nikaya XLV.8 > Magga-vibhanga Sutta > An Analysis of the Path > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, > unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates > desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities > that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising > of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates > desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This, monks, is called right effort. > > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > My take on the above passage is that it implies free will. "He generates" ... "[he] exerts his intent" and so forth. If he'd have said something along the lines of "What is Right Effort? When conditions arise that bring forth the effect of the non-arising of evil..." then it would have implied determinism. Peace, Dave 23235 From: Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Kom - Thank you for your kind reply. As you probably expext, I agree with you some and disagree with you some. I will give just a few brief comments in context below. In a message dated 7/1/03 11:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:32 AM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading &Serialization > > > I still find unanswered by you the > >importance of the so precise > >relative speed of cittas compared to rupas. In > >the Sutta Pitaka, the Buddha, I > >believe just once, in response to a query, > >pointed out that the mind shouldn't be > >taken for a self, a self being generally > >understood as something permanent, > >because mind changes even faster than form. Now > >that was a good, brief teaching > >directed to a specific inquiry, making a true but > >informal point, and leaving > >it at that. Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it > >seems to me, picked up on this, > >and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times > >as fast as rupas. First of > >all, how they did the clocking is an interesting > >question! But that aside, and > >aside from the fact that 17 is my favorite prime > >number ;-), I still > >question the importance of this numerical > >information. The Buddha had made a good > >point (he was the best of teachers!), and the > >scholastics then took it and ruined > >it, as I see it, by establishing a useless, dry, > >and lifeless "fact" - a > >piece of "scientific" data comparable to the > >medieval Christian determinations of > >how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! > > K. Sujin actually said many time that the teachings, both in > the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of > being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most excelled in > wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha to progress > in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is certainly true with regard to many matters. But the sense of it troubles me. It makes me think about two things: One is the Christian dictum "God works in mysterious ways. His wonders to behold." The other, going rather in the opposite direction, is the content of the Kalama Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------- > > I did not answer you directly the first time because I hope > that an indirect answer would suffice (which I still think > it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be > useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as > being something "extra" to the Buddha's teaching, I think > that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is > grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash > (for you). > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Not so. There is a great deal in the Theravada Abhidhamma that I consider to be of enormous value and which I have internalized as part of my "world view". (But,yes, I do not believe that the Abhidhamma Pitaka was Buddha word. Pretty much all the early schools developed their own Abhidhamma, and well after the death of the Buddha.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > I will give you a couple of reasons, which I am sure you > would disagree, so this is mostly for somebody else. Many > details in the Abhidhamma, including the 17 citta process > and the more subtle details of pacaya (conditionality) give > a person a sense (and understanding) that there are only > causes and effects. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I've read in the suttas plus my own experience, both while meditating and during "ordinary times", have persuaded me of this impersonality. But I can see that some folks might find such numerical "facts" helpful. --------------------------------------------------- The dhammas roll on uninterrupted> > regardless of whether "we" want to do anything about it. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. --------------------------------------------------- > The speed of the citta shows you how it is impossible to be > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for the Arahat). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is the cittas, themselves, that do the perceiving, not some "self" sitting back and looking on (like one of the two birds in the tree of the Hindus)! So the cittas certainly keep pace with the cittas! This business of not seeing what's actually going on requires a much deeper analysis than one of speed! ------------------------------------------------- > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > conditions that this is no longer the case. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: How do these conditions accumulate, Kom? By magic, or randomly, or by volitional action of very specific nature? (Forget about "I" - there's no "I", and I'm not assuming the existence of one.) ------------------------------------------------------ > > It also teaches one to be careful. When we may think that > right now, we are at peace and mindful, that because the > citta proceeds at its own speed, there are bound to be > attachments to the dhammas. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: For sure there are attachments! I'm well aware of that. -------------------------------------------------- For example, some people> > believe that the volitional factor is important in the > development of the path, but we can see it for ourselves > that when "we" intend to have mindfulness, is that > attachment or is that wisdom? Knowing (in general) the > speed and the subtleties of the mind helps one to be careful > and to investigate thoroughly --- there is already > attachment, the samudhaya of all becomings, to results, and > one doesn't even know it. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no need to say "volition" and "we" in the same sentence. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Another reason why this might be useful to others is because > some people like things to be more concrete rather than more > general. Hearing a general teaching (that the mind is fast) > may be insufficient for the person to hold the person > attention, but giving them the specifics grounds them to the > fact that the mind is fast. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: A valid point. ---------------------------------------------------- I am sure that being a teacher,> > you must have found that people are different. For some, > being general is sufficient for them, for others, unless the > specifics are given, they are not quite satisfied. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: To see that the mind changes at all is enough to see that it is not a "self". Exactly how fast it allegedly changes, or how fast compared to forms, is not of any particular importance. (At least, I don't see the importance.) ---------------------------------------------------- > > kom > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23236 From: Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization [Howard] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 7/1/03 12:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhd5@c... writes: > Dan replies: I can think of a lot of better things to do than to > question the importance of this numerical information! "Just > note 'papañca, papañca' and direct the mind back to the primary > object of meditation." [BTW: Did you ever do a Mahasi-style > meditation retreat?] > > ========================= Brief retreats with Joseph Goldstein, Sharon Salzberg, and Larry Rosenberg - Mahasi style, plus a 10-day Goenka retreat (not Mahasi style). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23237 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, op 01-07-2003 12:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, > and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. N: When a process of cittas experiencing a sense object, a rupa (such as visible object or sound), runs its full course, 17 moments of citta have elapsed when the rupa falls away. More info: Abh Studies, Nyanaponika. He explains that in comparison to rupa citta is seventeen times faster. See Yasa's posts where he enumerated all cittas of the Process, bhavangacittas included. Nina. 23238 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, Pali subco Dear Jim and Larry, op 01-07-2003 02:25 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > Thanks for your translation and general remarks. I'm still not clear > on the Pali, so what follows is my attempt at an alternative > translation with some notes. N: Thank you very much Jim for your remarks and corrections. I have to absorb it now. I stared a long time on vara. Larry, you had several questions, but it is good if we first absorb what Jim wrote. Even when we have the translation right we have to interprete it. We need the whole context of the Tipitaka for this, such as satipatthana sutta and commentary, abhidhamma, etc. Nina. 23239 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 0:38am Subject: Azita - Cones was (Re: Inquiry to Nina...) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Azita, > > Cones come in little boxes of six or eight - I think you said Darshan > from India were the best, > > dear Chris, Ahhh, yes, I do remember. Please let me know when you want your 'Conditions' returned, I am only on Ch.3, it's not such light reading is it? No wonder the Buddha said it was deep and difficult to understand.!! Hope work goes well, and maybe see you again at end of August. Azita. 23240 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 1:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:33 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > K. Sujin actually said many time that the > teachings, both in > > the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of > > being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most > excelled in > > wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha > to progress > > in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is certainly true with regard to many > matters. But the sense of > it troubles me. It makes me think about two > things: One is the Christian dictum > "God works in mysterious ways. His wonders to > behold." The other, going > rather in the opposite direction, is the content > of the Kalama Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------- I can understand why it troubles you. We shouldn't believe in something that is proven otherwise. I am one who appreciates the Kalama Sutta and don't see what is taught there as being extreme at all. At the end, you need to prove your theory; otherwise, the theory remains unprovable, even if it is useful from the general sense. That's why the teachings of the kandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus are pretty magical to me: truth beyond reproach, and provable from the coarsest degree, to the finest one. Do I know there are 17 citta moments per rupa? I don't, but I am willing to hold it as a better model than the other ones that I have come to know, until proven (and not just logically!) otherwise. > > > > I did not answer you directly the first time > because I hope > > that an indirect answer would suffice (which I > still think > > it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be > > useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as > > being something "extra" to the Buddha's > teaching, I think > > that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is > > grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash > > (for you). > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Not so. There is a great deal in the > Theravada Abhidhamma that I > consider to be of enormous value and which I have > internalized as part of my "world > view". (But,yes, I do not believe that the > Abhidhamma Pitaka was Buddha word. > Pretty much all the early schools developed their > own Abhidhamma, and well > after the death of the Buddha.) > ----------------------------------------------------- OK. You did show the appreciation many times. I am over-generalizing. I apologize for this carelessness. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > The speed of the citta shows you how it is > impossible to be > > perfectly mindful of what appears (except for > the Arahat). > > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is the cittas, themselves, that do the > perceiving, not some "self" > sitting back and looking on (like one of the two > birds in the tree of the > Hindus)! So the cittas certainly keep pace with > the cittas! This business of not > seeing what's actually going on requires a much > deeper analysis than one of > speed! > ------------------------------------------------- If you are implying perfect mindfulness (I don't think you are), are you sure? The truth of origination can be relinquished only when it (the attachment) has been known (completely and thoroughly). The problem is that the attachments that are not yet known are more subtle that the one already "known". How about attachment to sati (and the rites and rituals that we follow to have more of these "sati")? I think knowing about how fast the mind goes about urges one to investigate more thoroughly about our intentions and mental states, especially those accompanied with the pleasant/neutral feelings. > > > When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > > grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > > conditions that this is no longer the case. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > How do these conditions accumulate, Kom? > By magic, or randomly, or by > volitional action of very specific nature? > (Forget about "I" - there's no "I", > and I'm not assuming the existence of one.) > ------------------------------------------------------ I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this many times. I believe in causes and effects. The causes for wisdom at the pati-pati level (practice, as normally translated) are wisdom at listening and consideration level. The pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is association with the wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified by one own's wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The 8-fold path comprises of all the mental factors arising at the moment of mindfulness, which volition is not included (although co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently brought about by wisdom (at the different levels). I think you interpret the 8-fold path differently, so I think we will disagree here. When the volitional factor is so strong that it appears to us, I think we should investigate the co-arising states of the volitional factor. Is it wisdom, or is it subtle (or not so subtle) attachment hoping for existence (of sati), hoping for an existence of a self who has sati, who is progressing, who is doing the right thing, who is following the path, etc. Subtle is attachment, even ones who are so wise (but not a Buddha), such as the Buddha's tranquil meditation teachers, cannot escape it. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > To see that the mind changes at all is > enough to see that it is not a > "self". Exactly how fast it allegedly changes, or > how fast compared to forms, > is not of any particular importance. (At least, I > don't see the importance.) > ---------------------------------------------------- Before I learned about the complexities of conditions, I always had at the back of my mind (and I still do, it is just more subtle) that one thing I do will dictate the outcome of states. After a bit of understanding about the complexities of the conditions, I now understand how foolish of me to think so. Seeing occurs because there are the eye sense, the visible object, and the seeing consciousness. I control not the eye sense, and not the visible object, so how is it possible that I would control seeing consciousness? Sati and kusala states come about based on much more complexed conditions than seeing, and definitely than just the volitional factor alone. I think learning about the citta process (which has association with the magical number 17) can give one the same sense. What can one do? If one understands that only understanding sheds more light into the true natures of all realities (such as the ti-lakkhana), progressively, then one strives to understand the right thing, being confident that because of this little understanding that arises now, eventually one will fulfill the conditions to become enlightened in the future. There is no need for us to exert extra efforts. When wisdom understands the urgency of knowing the states, then the right efforts increase based on the understanding. Causes and effects. kom 23241 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inquiry to Nina... for Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Azita, > -snip- > > Calm and peacefulness are wholesome, skillful qualities that one can > see for oneself. Dear Victor, I'm not as certain as you that calm and peacefulness are necessarily wholesome, they can be but unless there is the wisdom to really know at the time, they can also be unwholesome, just subtle pleasant feeling, lobha. > Regarding 'wrong practice', what 'wrong practice' are you refering > to? > In relation to what I've just previously stated, I believe that unless Panna is developed to the stage of knowing what is right and wrong practice, then there always is the danger of taking akusala for kusala. For example, if during meditation, I feel really calm and peaceful, I don't know for sure if that's the calm of samatha or just good ole' Lobha. Now, if Panna arose then Panna would know. I'll bet its good ole Lobha. > And regarding the question: why can't Nibbana be object of clinging? > > I would reply with a rhetorical question: > > How can an object of clinging, fabricated, impermanent, dukkha, be > the cessation of dukkha, unborn, unmade, unfabricated, unbecome? > > Your comment is appreciated. > > Peace, > Victor > I had to think hard about this one, Victor. You are saying that an object that is clung to cannot be the cessation of clinging, right? I agree bec. Nibbana can only be experienced by wholesome cetasikas, but afterwards when there is thinking about Nibbana, can it not then be 'desired'? Can it not then be an object of clinging? Looking forward to your, or anyone's, comment on this. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23242 From: Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Nina (and Kom) - In a message dated 7/2/03 12:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > op 01-07-2003 12:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Then the Abhidhamma scholastics, it seems to me, picked up on this, > >and presented a "fact" that cittas go by 17 times as fast as rupas. > N: When a process of cittas experiencing a sense object, a rupa (such as > visible object or sound), runs its full course, 17 moments of citta have > elapsed when the rupa falls away. > More info: Abh Studies, Nyanaponika. He explains that in comparison to rupa > citta is seventeen times faster. > See Yasa's posts where he enumerated all cittas of the Process, > bhavangacittas included. > Nina. > ============================== Yes, thank you Nina. I do understand what has been said (though, I must admit, I give somewhat short shrift to all the details). Questions that come to mind are the matter of measuring this flow of namas and rupas (there is no one or thing standing back from the cittas, looking on - it *is* the cittas that are the experiencing), but moreso I question the usefulness of the matter. To me, assuming that this is, indeed, fact, it strikes me that this fact is one of those leaves in the forest that the Buddha did not hold in his hand. One more thing I'd like to add: I believe that I was a bit rude to Kom (perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this topic - getting cranky as I age I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23243 From: Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi, Kom - Thank you forthe very kind and friendly post. I will insert just a few comments in context below. In a message dated 7/2/03 4:06:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 2:33 PM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading &Serialization > > > >>K. Sujin actually said many time that the > >teachings, both in > >>the Abhidhamma and in the Sutta, are beyond the realm of > >>being verified by us. Even Sariputta, one most > >excelled in > >>wisdom, still needs to ask/listen to the Buddha > >to progress > >>in wisdom (even after having reached arahatship). > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > This is certainly true with regard to many > >matters. But the sense of > >it troubles me. It makes me think about two > >things: One is the Christian dictum > >"God works in mysterious ways. His wonders to > >behold." The other, going > >rather in the opposite direction, is the content > >of the Kalama Sutta. > >---------------------------------------------------- > > I can understand why it troubles you. We shouldn't believe > in something that is proven otherwise. I am one who > appreciates the Kalama Sutta and don't see what is taught > there as being extreme at all. At the end, you need to > prove your theory; otherwise, the theory remains unprovable, > even if it is useful from the general sense. That's why the > teachings of the kandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus are pretty > magical to me: truth beyond reproach, and provable from the > coarsest degree, to the finest one. Do I know there are 17 > citta moments per rupa? I don't, but I am willing to hold > it as a better model than the other ones that I have come to > know, until proven (and not just logically!) otherwise. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Honestly, while I have some doubts with regard to some of this, especially as regards utility, Icertainly do not dismiss it. I also,in fact, tentatively accept it - but perhaps with a bit more scepticism than you. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > >>I did not answer you directly the first time > >because I hope > >>that an indirect answer would suffice (which I > >still think > >>it is): a teaching may not be useful to you, but may be > >>useful to somebody else. As you view the abhidhamma as > >>being something "extra" to the Buddha's > >teaching, I think > >>that regardless of how I explain it, as long as it is > >>grounded from the Abhidhamma, what I say would be a wash > >>(for you). > >> > >------------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Not so. There is a great deal in the > >Theravada Abhidhamma that I > >consider to be of enormous value and which I have > >internalized as part of my "world > >view". (But,yes, I do not believe that the > >Abhidhamma Pitaka was Buddha word. > >Pretty much all the early schools developed their > >own Abhidhamma, and well > >after the death of the Buddha.) > >----------------------------------------------------- > > OK. You did show the appreciation many times. I am > over-generalizing. I apologize for this carelessness. > ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You have nothing to apologize for. Thank you for thinking that you do. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > >--------------------------------------------------- > > > >>The speed of the citta shows you how it is > >impossible to be > >>perfectly mindful of what appears (except for > >the Arahat). > >> > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is the cittas, themselves, that do the > >perceiving, not some "self" > >sitting back and looking on (like one of the two > >birds in the tree of the > >Hindus)! So the cittas certainly keep pace with > >the cittas! This business of not > >seeing what's actually going on requires a much > >deeper analysis than one of > >speed! > >------------------------------------------------- > > If you are implying perfect mindfulness (I don't think you > are), are you sure? The truth of origination can be > relinquished only when it (the attachment) has been known > (completely and thoroughly). The problem is that the > attachments that are not yet known are more subtle that the > one already "known". How about attachment to sati (and the > rites and rituals that we follow to have more of these > "sati")? I think knowing about how fast the mind goes about > urges one to investigate more thoroughly about our > intentions and mental states, especially those accompanied > with the pleasant/neutral feelings. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we may be in some agreement here. I see the problem as one of insufficient mindfulness and other kusala qualities, and not a matter of speed. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>When a dhamma appears, there are already attachments and > >>grieves, even the most subtle kinds, until we accumulate > >>conditions that this is no longer the case. > >> > >------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > How do these conditions accumulate, Kom? > >By magic, or randomly, or by > >volitional action of very specific nature? > >(Forget about "I" - there's no "I", > >and I'm not assuming the existence of one.) > >------------------------------------------------------ > > I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this many times. > I believe in causes and effects. The causes for wisdom at > the pati-pati level (practice, as normally translated) are > wisdom at listening and consideration level. The > pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is association with the > wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified by one own's > wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply > sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The 8-fold path > comprises of all the mental factors arising at the moment of > mindfulness, which volition is not included (although > co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently brought about by > wisdom (at the different levels). I think you interpret the > 8-fold path differently, so I think we will disagree here. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: This is surely an area of disagreement. You do, however, mention " practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified by one own's wisdom)". Such practice requires exercise of volition, determination, guarding the senses, right effort. ------------------------------------------------ > > When the volitional factor is so strong that it appears to > us, I think we should investigate the co-arising states of > the volitional factor. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. Note, however, that "should" implies choice and volition. --------------------------------------------------- Is it wisdom, or is it subtle (or> > not so subtle) attachment hoping for existence (of sati), > hoping for an existence of a self who has sati, who is > progressing, who is doing the right thing, who is following > the path, etc. Subtle is attachment, even ones who are so > wise (but not a Buddha), such as the Buddha's tranquil > meditation teachers, cannot escape it. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree completely. It is essential to know what is actually going on. Attachment is dogged! ------------------------------------------------- > > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > To see that the mind changes at all is > >enough to see that it is not a > >"self". Exactly how fast it allegedly changes, or > >how fast compared to forms, > >is not of any particular importance. (At least, I > >don't see the importance.) > >---------------------------------------------------- > > Before I learned about the complexities of conditions, I > always had at the back of my mind (and I still do, it is > just more subtle) that one thing I do will dictate the > outcome of states. After a bit of understanding about the > complexities of the conditions, I now understand how foolish > of me to think so. Seeing occurs because there are the eye > sense, the visible object, and the seeing consciousness. I > control not the eye sense, and not the visible object, so > how is it possible that I would control seeing > consciousness? Sati and kusala states come about based on > much more complexed conditions than seeing, and definitely > than just the volitional factor alone. I think learning > about the citta process (which has association with the > magical number 17) can give one the same sense. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: All that you "see" here, I "see" also. If, somehow, 17 has helped you with this, then I salute it! ------------------------------------------------ > > What can one do? If one understands that only understanding > sheds more light into the true natures of all realities > (such as the ti-lakkhana), progressively, then one strives > to understand the right thing, being confident that because > of this little understanding that arises now, eventually one > will fulfill the conditions to become enlightened in the > future. There is no need for us to exert extra efforts. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The "striving" you write of above, which involves, as I see it, closely attending to what arises, with energy aroused, with concentration and a non-reactive calm in place, and with an eye to seeing what really is going on is, indeed, right practice. Certainly "extra" effort is unnecessary, possibly even counterproductive. -------------------------------------------------------------- > When wisdom understands the urgency of knowing the states, > then the right efforts increase based on the understanding. > Causes and effects. > > kom > > ============================ With metta, and with appreciation for the kindness of your posts, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23244 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Victor, ----- Original Message ----- From: yu_zhonghao To: Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:54 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > Hi Mike, Kom, and Howard, and all, > > Regardless the different mode of expression, the question is: > > Is the conceptual construct of the Abhidhamma Pitaka the Buddha's > teaching? > > Is an elaborate cognitive model of mental process the Dhamma? As Kom's reply indicated, these questions have been addressed many times here. I take your questions (as usual) to be rhetorical. For my part, I see no virtue in taking part in this kind of debate. mike 23245 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 7:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard (Victor & Dave), Just one more comment to your post, Howard. > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 5:19 AM > > > > I think you, Sarah, and Jon have gone over this > many times. > > I believe in causes and effects. The causes > for wisdom at > > the pati-pati level (practice, as normally > translated) are > > wisdom at listening and consideration level. The > > pre-requisite for reaching sotapanna is > association with the > > wise, listening to the true dhamma, wise > consideration, and > > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified > by one own's > > wisdom). Nothing rises randomly as this would imply > > sankhata dhamma beyond conditionalities. The > 8-fold path > > comprises of all the mental factors arising at > the moment of > > mindfulness, which volition is not included (although > > co-arising), and one which is pre-eminently > brought about by > > wisdom (at the different levels). I think you > interpret the > > 8-fold path differently, so I think we will > disagree here. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is surely an area of disagreement. > You do, however, mention " > practice accordingly (to the truth, as verified > by one own's wisdom)". Such > practice requires exercise of volition, > determination, guarding the senses, right > effort. I think this is the point that we keep converging to. I don't think we need to get into what right effort is as Victor has posted the definition on this same thread. I think the disagreement is how right efforts come about. I think for you (please let me know if I am say this wrong), right efforts can be an exercise of volition and choice (as Dave has called it free will). For me, right efforts come about because of the right understandings. For example, when one understands (or gets reminded) that life is short, one is urged on to understand the current moment better, because otherwise, such rare opportunities are wasted. When one understands that nama and rupa roll on interrupted, at every moment, then one doesn't need to find a special time of the day to be mindful. When one understands that kusala states are light and malleable, when we are burdened by thoughts that we are not doing something enough (to have sati), to know the characteristic of that thinking (probably aversion), and the characteristic of the desire for results that bring about that aversion. When I think back of how I come to learn about (and have confidence in) the Buddha dhamma, I can see that I become more involved more progressively because of better understandings of the teachings (often prompted by very good friends). The more I learn, the more I strive to develop kusala states. Right efforts brought about by right understandings. If we just strive, without the right understandings, it is the wrong effort. This is the cause and effect that I am convinced of. kom 23246 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 7:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:33 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization > > > Hi Kom, > > Then the goal is to realize liberation, the > cessation of dukkha. That is the ultimate goal, but is it possible to realize liberation and the cessation of dukkha without development? Development implies gradual progress, not sudden insight. It also implies intermediate levels of realization of the truths. We may rightly think about liberation and the cessation of dukkha in general sense now, but that is no realization. The buddha's teachings lead to knowledge, comprehension, detachment, liberation, and nibbana. Liberation is not yet possible as long as there is not enough accumulation, but knowledge, comprehension, and detachment are possible, albeit gradually. > > When you said that understanding that there is > nothing (that can be > realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first > step toward this > liberation, do you mean that knowing the four > noble truths is the > first step toward liberation, the cessation of dukkha? Does the first truth include the 5 kandhas? Is the second truth part of the 5 kandhas? You tell me... kom 23247 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 7:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 4:54 AM > One more thing I'd like to add: I believe > that I was a bit rude to Kom > (perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this > topic - getting cranky as I age > I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. > But you are such a mild crank! ;-). It is always amazing how many little things irritate me. kom 23248 From: caliman9_99@y... Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 1507 hello all the mind is a monkey that jumps fro tree to tree if left unattneded, so the lesson here is to be vigilant and guard the gates of our senses. do not let mara tempt you as he did Our Loord Buddha while sitting under the bodhi tree. peace to you all tom 23249 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My time with A. Sujin, 1. Dear Kio, op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > What I am curious first is to know your vivid, or perhaps inspiring > moment you had at the earlier/beginning years with A. Sujin. I read > some comment from the book on `daily life.' But more specifically, > how was your impression/learning from the first meeting? How > skillfully did she bring the technical matter/Abidhamma–if I may say > so- into the living/daily practice? Any specific event the you can > highlight? Even a tiny incident that brought the message to you – > verbally or behaviorally -may be very helpful. Nina:I met A. Sujin for the first time in the Wat Mahathaat temple where a foreign monk was teaching about the jhanafactors, and also helped us to read suttas. We read the Parinibbana sutta and the Kesaputta sutta (mostly called Kalama sutta). I was impressed that you do not have to accept anything from others, but have to find out the truth for yourself. A. Sujin kept rather to the background in this temple. I approached her and said that I wanted to learn about meditation that you can apply in daily life. My life was very busy, being in the diplomatic service. (In Japan the teachers at the language school (nihongo no gakko de) called me "Mrs Party". I felt there must something else in life, not just being engaged with parties. A. Sujin said, yes, vipassana can be developed in daily life, and she invited me to her house. From then on I came several times a week with many questions. I asked her about belief in God and how to find out the truth. She answered: what is truth will appear. She also helped me to see what is clinging, clinging to a belief. I had never considered this before. She said from the beginning that in the teaching of Dhamma, the person who teaches is not important, it is not the person but it is the Dhamma that matters. This was new also for Thais; in Asean countries there is a great respect for teachers (sensei!) and people tend to follow what teachers say, especially when they are bhikkhus. When teachers wrote about Dhamma in olden times they would not mention the source of their quotes. A. Sujin greatly contributed to a change in this mentality, always encouraging to looking up the texts oneself, verifying the truth for oneself. She started interest in the translations of Commentaries and promoted this. I remember our visits to the library of Wat Bovornives and our conversations with monks. A friend made notes and gradually Commentaries in Thai were printed. A. Sujin gave lectures in a temple every Sunday and quoted suttas. She asked a monk ahead of time about the Commentary to the relevant text. I tried to look up the suttas in my English editions. (This is all for now, it will be continued.) Nina. 23250 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 10:06am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 2. Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 2. We need sati-sampajañña and we have to develop each kind of kusala with patience and endurance in order to realize the four noble Truths. We should not have expectations as to the moment when we shall realize the four noble Truths. So long as we have many defilements which arise time and again and we have desire for the realization of the four noble Truths, we are very far away from the goal. Therefore, we should begin to develop all kind of kusala so that they become supporting conditions leading to the goal. We read in the Commentary to the ³Theragåthå², the ³Paramatthadípaní², in the ³Nidånakåthå², that all perfections support and enhance each other: The utmost patience in the accumulation of good qualities such as dåna in order to attain the awakening wisdom of the ³Solitary Buddha² or the awakening wisdom of a disciple, is called energy, viriya. Endurance with regard to anger is called patience, khanti. Generous deeds, the undertaking of moral conduct, síla, and so on, and the abstention from speech that deviates from the truth is called truthfulness, sacca. Determination which is unshakable and firm so that one can accomplish what is beneficial in all circumstances, is called determination, aditthåna. Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå. Evenmindedness with regard to trying circumstances and behaviour of other beings is called equanimity, upekkhå. Therefore, when there are dåna, síla and bhåvana, mental development, or there are síla, samådhi and paññå, it can be said that the perfections of energy and so on have reached accomplishment in those ways. We need the greatest patience for the accumulation of generosity. We need energy, we need to be unshakable and firm in order to accomplish what is beneficial in all circumstances. It is useful that the perfections are referred to in different ways, in slightly different wordings, although the meaning is the same. For example, as we read in the Commentary to the ³Theragåthå²: ³Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå.² Thus, this is another aspect of mettå. People who perform generous deeds may not consider their cittas at such moments, they may not realize that they give because of mettå. It is their nature to give and therefore, they perform generous deeds, they give things away for the benefit and happiness of others. If they consider their kusala citta they will know that mettå is the foundation of their generosity. When they abstain from ill deeds through body and speech the foundation of their kusala is also mettå. They do not want to cause suffering and distress to others by their actions or speech. 23251 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 10:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization Hi Kom, Thank you for the reply. Regarding the question "is it possible to realize liberation and the cessation of dukkha without development", I would rephrase it as: Is it possible to realize the cessation of dukkha without practicing/living/developing in the way leading to the cessation of dukkha? To that question, I would say: No, it is not possible. I believe we are in agreement that the goal is liberation, the cessation of dukkha. Thank you again for the reply. Your comment is appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Victor, > [snip] > > Hi Kom, > > > > Then the goal is to realize liberation, the > > cessation of dukkha. > > That is the ultimate goal, but is it possible to realize > liberation and the cessation of dukkha without development? > Development implies gradual progress, not sudden insight. > It also implies intermediate levels of realization of the > truths. We may rightly think about liberation and the > cessation of dukkha in general sense now, but that is no > realization. The buddha's teachings lead to knowledge, > comprehension, detachment, liberation, and nibbana. > Liberation is not yet possible as long as there is not > enough accumulation, but knowledge, comprehension, and > detachment are possible, albeit gradually. > > > > > When you said that understanding that there is > > nothing (that can be > > realized now) beyond the 5 kandhas are the first > > step toward this > > liberation, do you mean that knowing the four > > noble truths is the > > first step toward liberation, the cessation of dukkha? > > Does the first truth include the 5 kandhas? Is the second > truth part of the 5 kandhas? You tell me... > > kom 23252 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor Hi Azita, Thank you for your reply. Some more rhetorical questions: Can one experience calm and peacefulness while being greedy? When one is greedy, how can he or she experience calm and peacefulness? Being calm is not the same as being greedy. Calm is different from greed. Likewise, experiencing subtle pleasant feeling is not the same as being greedy. Subtle pleasant feeling is different from greed. Your question "Nibbana can only be experienced by wholesome cetasikas, but afterwards when there is thinking about Nibbana, can it not then be 'desired'?" reminds me of this discourse: Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 Brahmana Sutta To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn51-015.html Thank you again for your reply. Your comment is appreciated. If you like, let me know how you understand the discourse. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: [snip] > > Dear Victor, > I'm not as certain as you that calm and peacefulness are > necessarily wholesome, they can be but unless there is the wisdom to > really know at the time, they can also be unwholesome, just subtle > pleasant feeling, lobha. > > > Regarding 'wrong practice', what 'wrong practice' are you refering > > to? > > > In relation to what I've just previously stated, I believe that > unless Panna is developed to the stage of knowing what is right and > wrong practice, then there always is the danger of taking akusala for > kusala. For example, if during meditation, I feel really calm and > peaceful, I don't know for sure if that's the calm of samatha or just > good ole' Lobha. Now, if Panna arose then Panna would know. I'll > bet its good ole Lobha. > [snip] > I had to think hard about this one, Victor. You are saying that > an object that is clung to cannot be the cessation of clinging, right? > I agree bec. Nibbana can only be experienced by wholesome cetasikas, > but afterwards when there is thinking about Nibbana, can it not then > be 'desired'? Can it not then be an object of clinging? > Looking forward to your, or anyone's, comment on this. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 23253 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > Thank you for your reply. > > Some more rhetorical questions: > Can one experience calm and peacefulness while being greedy? When > one is greedy, how can he or she experience calm and peacefulness? > dear Victor, perhaps not while being greedy, but I believe with very subtle lobha, one can feel very peaceful e.g. imagine being on holidays, lying back on the beach, beautiful weather, without a care in the world at the moment, for me, that's very peaceful but I wouldn't say it was kusala. -snip- , let me know how you understand the discourse. > > Peace, > Victor > Regarding the discourse, I'm wondering if the desire that's spoken about is Chanda, which is desire-to-do, rather than Lobha. The discourse is very uplifting, but if I didn't have some knowledge of Abhidhamma, I would think that 'I' could do something to attain Enlightenment. I want to quote something that I just read from Nina: 'so long as we have many defilements which arise time and again and we have desire for the realization of the 4 Noble Truths, we are very far from the goal'. I know that I don't know just h0w deep 'my' defilements are, but I'm fairly certain that there is a lot more akusala in a day than kusala. Cessation is not attained by wishing, it is attained by Knowledge, and I quote here from Kom: 'the 1st stage of insight is the distinction bet. nama and rupa. Without this stage of insight, the person still holds dear all the Khandhas as being truly theirs.' I present my question about Nibbana a little differently. In Nina's book 'Conditions' p36, it says 'anything can be object of clinging, except Nibbana'. Why is this? Thanks for dragging me out of the lurkers' corner, Victor. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23254 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 2, 2003 9:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Dear Howard, op 02-07-2003 13:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > In a message dated 7/2/03 12:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... > writes: Questions that > come > to mind are the matter of measuring this flow of namas and rupas (there is no > one or thing standing back from the cittas, looking on - it *is* the cittas > that are the experiencing), but moreso I question the usefulness of the > matter. N: We do not have to count, but it helps us to see how processes run on, run on, nobody can hold them or slow them down. It helps us to understand more about the different doorways, sense-door and mind-door, and what is known by insight. At first one may not see the usefulness, but later on one sees it. By going into the matter more carefully, considering what one learns. It is useful to know that there is not one moment of javanacitta (kusala or akusala), but more, seven. We do not count, but it is significant that there are more. One moment of seeing and shortly after that more moments of attachment, and the same goes on in the succeeding mind-door process. When lobha arises in the sense-door process, it also follows in the mind-door process that succeeds the sense-door process. It shows us that kusala and akusala are accumulated on and on. Mostly akusala. We come to understand accumulations. H: One more thing I'd like to add: I believe that I was a bit rude to Kom > (perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this topic - getting cranky as I age > I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. N: You are a very kind person, Howard, and I am sure Kom feels the same about you. Moreover, I know that you carefully consider the dhamma and write yourself well thought-out posts. Nina. 23255 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 1:05am Subject: What do you do with gratitude? Dear group, When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23256 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/3/03 12:34:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > op 02-07-2003 13:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > >In a message dated 7/2/03 12:18:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > >writes: > Questions that > >come > >to mind are the matter of measuring this flow of namas and rupas (there is > no > >one or thing standing back from the cittas, looking on - it *is* the cittas > >that are the experiencing), but moreso I question the usefulness of the > >matter. > N: We do not have to count, but it helps us to see how processes run on, run > on, nobody can hold them or slow them down. It helps us to understand more > about the different doorways, sense-door and mind-door, and what is known by > insight. At first one may not see the usefulness, but later on one sees it. > By going into the matter more carefully, considering what one learns. > It is useful to know that there is not one moment of javanacitta (kusala or > akusala), but more, seven. We do not count, but it is significant that there > are more. One moment of seeing and shortly after that more moments of > attachment, and the same goes on in the succeeding mind-door process. When > lobha arises in the sense-door process, it also follows in the mind-door > process that succeeds the sense-door process. It shows us that kusala and > akusala are accumulated on and on. Mostly akusala. We come to understand > accumulations. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Without touching on each detail of what you said here, I certainly agree with the thrust of it. Realizing that what is usually taken for some "me" going through a process of observing an apparently short and simple sequence of "things in here" or "things out there" actually amounts to a complex flow of flickerings from one sense door to another, involving a dazzling stream of arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all quite impersonal and uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully illuminating and freeing. What we usually "see" consists of only what occurs at the surface level of awareness, all the rest slipping by, subliminal, unnoticed. And the material we usually *do* get to see largely consists of a conceptual summing up infected by defilements, so that "our world" seems to consist of "us" looking at "things", all relatively stable (some even permanent) and controllable (by "us") - so, we are seeing only the tip of the iceberg, and that through a fog, and using binoculars with clouded lenses! ---------------------------------------------------------- > H: One more thing I'd like to add: I believe that I was a bit rude to Kom > >(perhaps more than a bit) in my posts on this topic - getting cranky as I > age > >I guess! ;-), and I do sincerely apologize for this. > N: You are a very kind person, Howard, and I am sure Kom feels the same > about you. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. Kom's reply to me about this was most kind as well. ------------------------------------------------------- Moreover, I know that you carefully consider the dhamma and write> > yourself well thought-out posts. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, thank you. Yes, the Dhamma is very important to me. -------------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23257 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] What do you do with gratitude? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 7/3/03 4:06:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear group, > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > metta and peace, > Christine > =============================== I know the feeling. Perhaps the gratitude should go to the past actions of yourself and others that led to these circumstances (or, as Judaism says, that "brought you to this day"), and to the Buddha and other great (but lesser) teachers whose teachings you have come across in this and previous lifetimes and which helped in making you open to such appreciation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23258 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? Thanks be to God, Christine -- an effective means to dissipate the feeling and opinion of Self-importance and to take the sting out of the nagging doubts about where to put gratitude and feelings of bereftness. Is this kusala or akusala? Some who read this post will react with strong dosa: "The mention of something so wrong-headed and, frankly, stupid and obviously wrong as 'God' can only reveal a deep, pitiful ignorance about the world and will be condemned to painful rebirths on account of a sick wrong view." However, "God" exists just as surely as do you or I (perhaps more so, depending on how you define "God") ... or any of the other conceived, compounded nouns we habitually use in conventional speech to communicate cleanly. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and chilly, > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing tide > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink on > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming gratitude > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23259 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Ha! Well-spoken, Dan. As 'an atheist' with an habitual aversion to religion, this is a timely reminder for me. The Buddha certainly had no problem with the idea of gods, why should I? That said, though, I think it's far better to see the danger in pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts than to feel grateful for them, no matter how pleasant--unless they are directly related to: "dåna or generosity, kusala accomplished by dåna, the giving away of useful things to someone else, síla or morality, kusala accomplished by síla, abstention from akusala kamma, bhåvanå or mental development, kusala accomplished through the development of samatha and of vipassanå, apacåyana or paying repect, kusala accomplished by paying respect to those who deserve it, veyyåvaca or rendering service, kusala accomplished by applying energy in helping someone else with the tasks that are to be done, pattidåna or sharing of merit, kusala accomplished by letting someone else know of one's kusala so that he can appreciate it, pattanumodana or appreciation, kusala accomplished by the appreciation of someone else's kusala, desanå or teaching, kusala accomplished by the teaching of the Dhamma, savana or listening, kusala accomplished by listening to the Dhamma, diììhujukamma or correction of one's views, kusala accomplished by acquiring right view of realities. Whenever the citta does not apply itself to one of these ten meritorious deeds, it is not kusala citta." Sujin Boriharnwannaket Survey of Paramattha Dhammas For me, it's hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them--this is unwise attention, though, I think. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 7:56 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? > Thanks be to God, Christine -- an effective means to dissipate the > feeling and opinion of Self-importance and to take the sting out of > the nagging doubts about where to put gratitude and feelings of > bereftness. > > Is this kusala or akusala? Some who read this post will react with > strong dosa: "The mention of something so wrong-headed and, frankly, > stupid and obviously wrong as 'God' can only reveal a deep, pitiful > ignorance about the world and will be condemned to painful rebirths > on account of a sick wrong view." However, "God" exists just as > surely as do you or I (perhaps more so, depending on how you > define "God") ... or any of the other conceived, compounded nouns we > habitually use in conventional speech to communicate cleanly. > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear group, > > > > When I came out of work tonight, the air was quite fresh and > chilly, > > still a novelty at the beginning of winter in the sub-tropics. The > > trees were full of rainbow lorikeets that had flown down from the > > rainforest to roost in the safety of the carpark lights, for once > > displacing the noisy miners on the branches. The sky had lots of > > clouds in bumps and rows like the patterns made by the outgoing > tide > > on the sand - all the different patterns were bright orangey-pink > on > > the blue background of the sky. I just felt an overwheming > gratitude > > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23260 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 6:40 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & > Serialization, accumulations. > > > Without touching on each detail of what > you said here, I certainly > agree with the thrust of it. Realizing that what > is usually taken for some "me" > going through a process of observing an > apparently short and simple sequence of > "things in here" or "things out there" actually > amounts to a complex flow of > flickerings from one sense door to another, > involving a dazzling stream of > arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all > quite impersonal and > uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully > illuminating and freeing. What we usually > "see" consists of only what occurs at the surface > level of awareness, all the > rest slipping by, subliminal, unnoticed. And the > material we usually *do* get > to see largely consists of a conceptual summing > up infected by defilements, so > that "our world" seems to consist of "us" looking > at "things", all relatively > stable (some even permanent) and controllable (by > "us") - so, we are seeing > only the tip of the iceberg, and that through a > fog, and using binoculars with > clouded lenses! > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Leaving aside all the other disagreements, I do appreciate this very much! kom 23261 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 5:34am Subject: Hello from a new (old!) member Dear friends, I'man old guy--74--who came to Buddhism subsequent to visiting Thailand for the first time in 1997. In the three weeks in Thailand I neverheard anyone raise their voices in anger. Our tour guides were such impressive people--gentle, calm, focused. Both had been novice monks for a time. Well, I now sit with the Tucson Community Meditation Center sangha. I have a daily sitting practice at home. I have attended several excellent retreats with some excellent teachers. Now I'm starting to read the Pali texts--in translation, of course! I send greetings to each of you. Metta, Clyde Appleton (clydera@a...) 23262 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: Hello from a new (old!) member Dear Clyde, Whether you are a new or an old member it is not a problem. You said that you start your learning Pali translation. At some time could you please share what you have read? We all will be looking forward to hearing from you. Htoo Naing 23263 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, penetration Dear Larry, op 29-06-2003 08:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Consciousness penetrates the characteristics by being the vehicle thru > which panna cetasika functions. N: I would not say so. Panna penetrates, but panna is always coarising with citta. Citta, sanna and panna arising together experience the object, in this case one of the three characteristics at a time, but they each experience it in their own way. Panna penetartes and illuminates the object. Below more texts I collected from "Perfections" to show more what penetartion is. > L: Ultimately, what is penetrated is the khandhas or grasping of the > khandhas. Panna penetrates the khandhas or grasping and realizes > nibbana. N: What is penetrated is: the true nature of whatever object appears: any nama or rupa. When lokuttara citta accompanied by lokuttara panna arises the object is nibbana. Then the four noble Truths are penetrated. L:The khandhas continue for a while, but grasping ceases. > Eventually the khandhas cease. N: This is in the case of the arahat. L:Have you > decided on an alternative to "endeavour"? N: It stands for the four right efforts. Now some texts which make it clearer what penetration is. End of quote. Nina 23264 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 1:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Howdy, Mike. A few comments... Mike writes: "Ha! Well-spoken, Dan. As 'an atheist' with an habitual aversion to religion, this is a timely reminder for me. The Buddha certainly had no problem with the idea of gods, why should I?" --> Dan Responds: I'm not talking about "gods" or any beings; simply "God", which is a conventional, everyday word like "I", "me", "self", etc. It is fine to use conventional, everyday words. The problem arises when there is misapprehension about the nature of the referent (whether existing or not). What could "God" refer to? Some possibilities would include: (1) Law of Nature, (2) Dhamma, (3) the conditions that produce kusala cittas. No need to think about a white haired man in the sky when you use the word "God", just as there is no need to imagine the existence of some enduring "Soul" when invoking the word "I". Mike continues: "That said, though, I think it's far better to see the danger in pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts than to feel grateful for them, no matter how pleasant--" --> Dan responds: Joy is kusala, provided it is free from attachment. No need to feel frightened or nervous or wary about pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts! Enjoy, but be fully aware that the arising of pleasant sensation is conditioned and does not last. Mike continues: "For me, it's hardest to see the danger in enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them--this is unwise attention, though, I think." --> Dan responds: Do you feel nervous or wary of enjoying the beauties of nature? This can't be kusala, can it? Dan 23265 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 1:39 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? > Howdy, Mike. A few comments... > > Mike writes: "Ha! Well-spoken, Dan. As 'an atheist' with an > habitual aversion to religion, this is a timely reminder for me. The > Buddha certainly had no problem with the idea of gods, why should I?" > > --> Dan Responds: I'm not talking about "gods" or any beings; > simply "God", which is a conventional, everyday word > like "I", "me", "self", etc. It is fine to use conventional, everyday > words. The problem arises when there is misapprehension about the > nature of the referent (whether existing or not). What could "God" > refer to? Some possibilities would include: (1) Law of Nature, (2) > Dhamma, (3) the conditions that produce kusala cittas. No need to > think about a white haired man in the sky when you use the > word "God", just as there is no need to imagine the existence of some > enduring "Soul" when invoking the word "I". Well, OK--I think all three are a stretch (I certainly can't think of any textual support for these) but this is just my opinion. By the way, apologies to anyone my comments might have offended--there weren't meant to offend. > Mike continues: "That said, though, I think it's far better to see > the danger in pleasant feelings arising with sense- and mind-contacts > than to feel grateful for them, no matter how pleasant--" > > --> Dan responds: Joy is kusala, provided it is free from attachment. As I understand it, there is joy that is associated with the goal (piiti, an enlightenment factor) and joy that isn't. The joy that isn't can be kusala but only leads to further rebirth and is not associated with the goal even though kusala. Then, of course, there's the joy that isn't even kusala--important, in my opinion, to distinguish between these. So, as you say, joy is kusala if free from attachment (a rarity in my opinion) but may still not be connected with the goal. The third kind of joy is extremely rare, I think. > No need to feel frightened or nervous or wary about pleasant feelings > arising with sense- and mind-contacts! Enjoy, but be fully aware that > the arising of pleasant sensation is conditioned and does not last. This is something I've grappled with before--the Buddha often talked about the importance of 'seeing danger' and this does sound like fear, nervousness or wariness, doesn't it? But of course the Buddha would not speak so as to arouse akusala. > Mike continues: "For me, it's hardest to see the danger in > enjoying the beauties of nature and my inclination is always to > delight in them, indulge in them and cling to them--this is unwise > attention, though, I think." > > --> Dan responds: Do you feel nervous or wary of enjoying the > beauties of nature? This can't be kusala, can it? I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think this is consistent with the Dhamma. Of course, in my case, there's pretty much always akusala of some kind or other occuring. I do think that, when wise attention (to sense- and mind-impressions) arises, it arises with equanimity, not with fear, nervousness or wariness--and certainly not with attachment. Sorry if my comments seemed to suggest otherwise! mike 23266 From: m. nease Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 3:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi Dan, p.s. "...And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? There is the theme of beauty. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen..." Samyutta Nikaya XLVI.51 Ahara Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn46-051.html Unfortunately, akusala is the most natural thing in the world. I grew up in the country and have been a lifelong nature-lover and well known for it since childhood. I used to think that love of nature was the ultimate good--now I think it's just attachment. Of course I may be wrong! mike 23267 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, penetration Thanks Nina, I appreciate your efforts. Larry 23268 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, "old guy"! ;-)) Say hello to "aging guy" - just 13 years your junior. ;-) In a message dated 7/3/03 12:44:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, clydera@a... writes: > Dear friends, > I'man old guy--74--who came to Buddhism subsequent to visiting Thailand > for the first time in 1997. In the three weeks in Thailand I neverheard > anyone raise their voices in anger. Our tour guides were such impressive > people--gentle, calm, focused. Both had been novice monks for a time. > Well, I now > sit with the Tucson Community Meditation Center sangha. I have a daily > sitting > practice at home. I have attended several excellent retreats with some > excellent teachers. Now I'm starting to read the Pali texts--in > translation, of > course! I send greetings to each of you. Metta, Clyde Appleton > (clydera@a...) > > =============================== It sounds to me like you have a lovely practice! Perhaps you've started a bit later in this lifetime than some, but you've hit the ground running! I'm sure you'll get much out of this list. The folks here are very knowledgeable when it comes to the suttas, and, far more so than on some other lists, many here (I'm not one) are well read in Abhidhamma and the Theravadin commentaries. So there is much of value to learn here. You will also come to see different understandings expressed here on what constitutes the Buddha's Dhamma, but the disagreements are always pleasant and very productive. This is because there are really lovely people here, not least of whom are the list owners. So, welcome! And enjoy! With metta, Howard (One of the members) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23269 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi, Mike - In a message dated 7/3/03 5:55:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think this > is consistent with the Dhamma. ============================ Following this dictum, Mike, I'm afraid we're all going to have an existence bereft of delight for a long, long time! From my perspective, the more free folks are of "self", the more delight they find in the simplest of things. The monks I have known who are serious practitioners are among the happiest folks I've ever seen, taking delight in almost everything. I remember once when I visited a Thai monk at a monastery not far from my home, there was a tiny, baby cockroach (!) on his saucer. I said to the monk "It looks like you have a visitor!" He laughed out loud delightedly, and gently took the little insect into his hand and escorted him out the door of the monastery. To me, this was a lesson in love and delight. Should we close ourselves off to the pleasure of metta and mudita? To the pleasure of seeing the play of baby animals? To the pleasure felt at hearing the first joyful laugh of a human child? Should we suppress what arises, or just see it clearly and do no harm? I think the latter. With metta and the sincerest wish for your delight, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23270 From: Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, all - I writing to clyde, age 74, I wrote: > Say hello to "aging guy" - just 13 years your junior. ;-) ================================ Evidently, I'm aging so fast I can't count any more! Make that 11 years, not 13! I guess I must have been grasping at youth! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23271 From: bodhi2500 Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 8:31pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor Hi Azita and Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > I present my question about Nibbana a little differently. > In Nina's book 'Conditions' p36, it says 'anything can be object of > clinging, except Nibbana'. Why is this? > > Thanks for dragging me out of the lurkers' corner, Victor. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita My understanding is that not only Nibbana but also the Lokuttara Magga and Phala cittas and cetasikas of Sotapanna,Sakadagami,Anagami and Arahant can not be objects of clinging. My guess on why they cant be objects of clinging is because those states are free from clinging. I think that it may be possible for a Sotapanna to have clinging to the thinking/memory of the experience of Nibbana, but this would be clinging to a concept, not a direct clinging to Nibbana itself. Maybe someone can offer a more knowledgeable answer. Azita, you mentioned in another post that you may be able to make it to the next Cooran meeting? If so looking forward to seeing you again. Take care Steve 23272 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Single Threading & Serialization, accumulations. Dear Howard, op 03-07-2003 15:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Realizing that what is usually taken for some "me" > going through a process of observing an apparently short and simple sequence > of > "things in here" or "things out there" actually amounts to a complex flow of > flickerings from one sense door to another, involving a dazzling stream of > arisings and ceasings of observed conditions, all quite impersonal and > uncontrollable (by any "me"), is wonderfully illuminating and freeing. N: I agree with Kom that this is very well expressed. It helps to think of conditions, that you cannot force anything. I spoke with Lodewijk who was nervous about the piano teacher, he is so sarcastical at times. No good to be nervous about it. A safe feeling that whatever we experienced is conditioned anyway. Nina. 23273 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jul 3, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I just felt an overwheming gratitude > and thankfulness - but then felt bereft when I considered to > whom/what could I offer thanks ... gratitude has to go somewhere. > Hi Christine and others This is another of those "party pooper" thoughts Buddhists are famous for - I wonder if there is a relation between (1) joyful feeling and desire to show gratitude somewhere; and (2) ill feeling and desire to blame someone or something eg. "I have a dreadful cold which I'm sure I caught from my spouse" or "That man's voice always gives me a headache". Re what to do with the joyful feeling/gratitude, is it not that you can't do anything with it (beyond experience it) because it has actually passed into non-existence? Metta, Andrew 23274 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? Dear All, Thanks to everyone for their thought provoking replies. According to Buddhadatta's English-Pali Dictionary, the Pali word for 'gratitude' is "katavekitaa". I thought I would look it up in the PED to get any scriptural references. I .. eventually .. found my way to this entry: "Katannuta (f.) [abstr. fr. last] gratefulness (defined at KhA 144 as katassa jananata) Sn 265; J I.122 (T. °na, v. l. °ta); III.25; Pv II.97; VvA 63; Sdhp 497, 540. In combn with katavedita S II.272; A I.61; II.226, 229. katannu--katavedita J III.492. --akatannuta ungratefulness, in combn with akatavedita A I.61; III.273; J V.419; as one of the 4 offences deserving of Niraya A II.226." http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Sounds like gratefulness is 'good' and Ungratefulness is 'bad'. So - if this last part is saying that ungratefulness is one of the four offences deserving of Niraya (the downward-path), what are the other three? I also wonder if the emotion sweeping over me when seeing the sunset and birds, and feeling the crisp air was really 'gratitude'. I think it was - it came after delight. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23275 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? [Christine] Wonderful, Chris! Thanks. > Thanks to everyone for their thought provoking replies. > According to Buddhadatta's English-Pali Dictionary, the Pali word > for 'gratitude' is "katavekitaa". I thought I would look it up in > the PED to get any scriptural references. I .. eventually .. found > my way to this entry: > "Katannuta (f.) [abstr. fr. last] gratefulness (defined at KhA 144 as > katassa jananata) Sn 265; J I.122 (T. °na, v. l. °ta); III.25; Pv > II.97; VvA 63; Sdhp 497, 540. In combn with katavedita S II.272; A > I.61; II.226, 229. katannu--katavedita J III.492. --akatannuta > ungratefulness, in combn with akatavedita A I.61; III.273; J V.419; > as one of the 4 offences deserving of Niraya A II.226." > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > Sounds like gratefulness is 'good' and Ungratefulness is 'bad'. > So - if this last part is saying that ungratefulness is one of the > four offences deserving of Niraya (the downward-path), what are the > other three? I also wonder if the emotion sweeping over me when > seeing the sunset and birds, and feeling the crisp air was > really 'gratitude'. I think it was - it came after delight. 23276 From: Gina Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 4:30am Subject: Buddhist Meditation for Insight Development Any of us have at one time or another found the toll of living in the modern world hard to bear. Stress, depression and disillusionment are some of the diseases of modern times that leave us yearning for a solution, a cure, so to speak. More and more people are turning to meditation as they fail to find the answer through worldly paths. Meditation is found in some form or other in all major religious traditions. Even those who are not religious use it to focus the mind, to hone it, so that it works better. In Buddhism, meditation is the integral to the eight-fold path to enlightenment. One trains one's mind so that it can see the four-point Supreme Truth that forms the core of Buddha's teachings: suffering, what causes it, the end of suffering, and the path to that end. Even if you are not interested in Buddhism, meditation is a valuable training that can be applied to daily life, for it helps with concentration and when done correctly can lead to a state of peace and calmness that's beyond worldly joys. There are two main branches in Buddhist meditation: samatha (calmness, concentration) and vipassana (insight), which stresses mindfulness. This doesn't mean that the two are entirely separate, since you cannot be mindful unless you have at least some level of concentration. Mantra meditation, in which you repeat a few words over and over, is also widely practiced. Followers of this technique may chant "Buddh" as they inhale, and "dho" as they exhale. The words may vary, but the purpose of chanting is really to get the mind focused. Yet another widely taught technique is kasinas, where meditators concentrate on an object outside themselves, such as the flame of a candle, or a crystal ball. Sati, or mindfulness, is key to vipassana meditation. You train yourself to be aware of the body's action, the rise and fall of your chest as you inhale and exhale, the movement of your feet and legs as you walk, as well as your feelings, your thought, and finally, the state of mind you are in. Walking, sitting and lying meditation are but a few of vipassana techniques. When the mind is untrained, concentration can be shattered by the slightest stimuli—noise, smell, heat, hunger, pain, etc. The key is to become aware of what happens, but not dwell on it. Still, a novice can only ward off so much distraction, and that's one reason why vipassana retreats are usually held in peaceful and isolated settings. For mediumship / meditation Development http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium 23277 From: Gina Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 8:16am Subject: Hi any Thais here? Hi, I'm Thai, and I am new to this group. I have my own group where I combine Thevarada and Spiritualism. I hope I can find information from this group to be used in my group to educate people as well. Gina http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium 23278 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Guarding the senses Tom Welcome to the list, and thanks for the useful reminder about guarding the senses. > the mind is a monkey that jumps fro tree to tree if left > unattneded, so the lesson here is to be vigilant and guard the > gates of our senses. do not let mara tempt you as he did Our Loord > Buddha while sitting under the bodhi tree. Would you care to share with us your understanding of the meaning of guarding the senses, as taught in the suttas? Thanks. Jon 23279 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Clyde Hello and welcome. I appreciate your obvious enthusiasm for the teachings. Please feel free to share with us any comments or questions you may have arising from your reading of the texts (or your pracice, or generally, for that matter). Jon --- clydera@a... wrote: > Dear friends, > I'man old guy--74--who came to Buddhism subsequent to visiting > Thailand > for the first time in 1997. In the three weeks in Thailand I > neverheard > anyone raise their voices in anger. Our tour guides were such > impressive > people--gentle, calm, focused. Both had been novice monks for a > time. Well, I now > sit with the Tucson Community Meditation Center sangha. I have a > daily sitting > practice at home. I have attended several excellent retreats with > some > excellent teachers. Now I'm starting to read the Pali texts--in > translation, of > course! I send greetings to each of you. Metta, Clyde Appleton > (clydera@a...) 23280 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:00am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 3 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 3 In the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct², in the ³Miscellaneous Sayings² it is explained as to each perfection to which kind of akusala it is opposed. We read about generosity: ³Further, giving is opposed to greed, hatred, and delusion, since it applies the qualities of non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion to gifts, recipients, and the fruits of giving, respectively.² As we read, the perfection of generosity is opposed to akusala, to lobha, dosa and moha, because when one is generous and accumulates the perfection of generosity, one practises the quality of non-attachment to one¹s gift. If someone still clings to the object he will give, he cannot give, he regrets the loss of his gift. He may think of giving, but he cannot give, he desires to wait for an opportunity to give. If someone is not firmly established in his determination to give, he may think of giving, but he does not give. At such a moment there is no generosity that is opposed to attachment. Whereas, when there is true generosity, it is accompanied by non-attachment; one does not cling to the object one is giving. At the moment of kusala citta there is also non-aversion towards the person who receives the gift. If one is displeased and dislikes the receiver, one will not give. This may happen when someone sees a beggar and notices that he has physical strength; he may be irritated and hence does not give. Or when someone sees a handicapped child the beggar takes along, he may be irritated about the beggar causing affliction to his child, and then he does not give. When generosity arises it has to be accompanied by the good qualities of non-attachment to the gift, non-aversion towards the receiver and it may be accompanied by non-delusion or paññå as well. When paññå knows the result of generosity, when it realizes that generosity is wholesome, there is true liberality and defilements are abandoned. We read further on in the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² about síla and renunciation: ³Virtue, síla, is opposed to greed, hatred, and delusion, since it removes crookedness and corruption in bodily conduct, etc. Renunciation, nekkhamma, is opposed to these three corruptions since it avoids indulgence in sense pleasures, the affliction of others, and self-mortification. If we do not cling to sense pleasures it is natural that there will also be less aversion. If someone has a great deal of attachment to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, but does not obtain these objects, he will be displeased. 23281 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:00am Subject: my time with A. Sujin. 2. Dear Kio and all, My time with A. Sujin. 2. When I was at her house, she explained about nama and rupa, about kusala citta and akusala citta. She answered my questions and very soon made me work for an English radio program. The first chapters that you find in ³Buddhism in Daily Life² are from my notes with my conversations with A. Sujin. Every two weeks I had to finish a new chapter. It was a busy, but happy time. She helped me to see that all those different cittas, cetasikas and rupas occur in daily life. I learnt that whatever occurs is conditioned; that good and bad inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and that these condition our behaviour. Everything I learnt was relevant to daily life. An example: we visited a bhikkhu who smiled when I told him about my interest in the teachings. A. Sujin asked me whether I knew why he smiled. She explained, because of happy feeling, somanassa. This sounds very simple, but it made me realize that feeling conditions our outward appearance. Conditions, she reminded me of them in the situation. We were waiting near a kuti, a bhikkhu¹s dwelling, for a certain monk. He was not there and I suggested that we would find out about him. She said, let us sit at this stone and just wait and see what happens because of conditions. We sat quietly for quite some time. What a good lesson, I am so grateful for all those reminders I received in the situation. It is true: we think of people we want to meet, but in fact, there are only different experiences, such as seeing, hearing and thinking, and they are all conditioned. Seeing and hearing are conditioned by kamma, thinking are kusala cittas or akusala cittas which have as objects the story, a whole of all our impressions. I was used to take notice only of the outward appearance of people, but now I learnt about different cittas which condition our behaviour. People may look very pleasant and peaceful, but what do we know about the cittas which change from moment to moment? When crossing a street she said: elements on elements, and it is so true: hardness appears, and it is only an element. We think of feet and street, but let us consider what can be directly experienced. However, it took many years before all these lessons were absorbed, and I needed later on during different journeys many explanations about the difference between thinking and awareness, before I understood a little more. (Later on I come back to this). A. Sujin used to go in retreat in a center but one day she realized that actually daily realities are the objects of vipassana. From then on she did not go anymore in retreat, and this happened not so long before I met her. Since most people were not used to this approach, they had many questions about vipassana in daily life. I found this approach the only reasobale one and did not doubt about its value. We have to know our own accumulations, our inclinations we take for self. They appear, and thus, they can be objects of insight. A. Sujin always stressed that there is no rule about how one should develop understanding and that one cannot direct what object appears at a particular moment. I find this most reasonable, because whatever is experienced by citta is conditioned. We went to different temples, also in the province. People asked questions about vipassana and concentration. Although I was just learning Thai, A. Sujin made me talk as well. I enjoyed simple life in the province, without any fringes. People treated me as one of them, and that is what makes me happy. People asked whether slowing down one¹s movements would help vipassana. A. Sujin asked one person to run and to find out whether there is any difference as to what realities are appearing. The conclusion was : it is all the same. True, seeing is always seeing, no matter we run or sit. Seeing is a citta, an ultimate reality that should be known as it is, non-self. I heard a dog barking and asked whether hearing a dog is an object of insight. She explained that hearing just sound is different from thinking of a dog. I listened, but only many years later I understood the point. People also asked: is this kusala, is that akusala. Her answer: you can only know for yourself. Nobody else can tell you. She also explained that it would be very easy if someone else tells you: do first this, then that and you will make progress. Her advice always was : there are no rules, there is no specific order of the objects insight can be developed. In the whole of the Tipitaka we learn about realities that arise because of condiitons and are non-self, now also in the practice we have to be consistent, how can we force ourselves to be aware of specific objects. She kept on warning us of subtle clinging to progress, to result. Expectations are lobha, attachment. She repeated many times: ³Don¹t expect anything². We should not expecxt anything from ourselves nor from others. Expectations bring sorrow. I am grateful for her example in this matter, and her example of patience and equanimity. Some people heavily critized her, but she was always patient and she calmly explained about cause and effect: what cause will bring what effect. We should be clear about this. Do we want only calm or is understanding our aim? (will be continued). 23282 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XIV, 3, endeavour Dear Larry, more about endeavour, from the Perfections, Energy. op 29-06-2003 08:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Have you > decided on an alternative to "endeavour"? N: We read in the ³Saddhammapajjotikå², the Commentary to the ³Tuvataka Sutta² (Speedy), in the Mahå-Niddesa, Khuddaka Nikåya, an explanation of the faculty, indriya, of viriya: .... The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha¹s teachings. We read further on about the characteristic of energy which should be developed 9: ³Effort is called Œårambha¹ because it is striving. The term viriyårambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure.² These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. We read in the Commentary: ³Another method of exposition: -This viriyårambha is Œstriving¹ in expelling lust, Œonward effort¹ in cutting the bonds, Œexertion¹ in escaping from the floods 10, Œendeavour¹ in reaching the further shore, Œzeal¹ in being a forerunner, Œardour¹ in exceeding the limit, Œvigour¹ in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and Œfortitude¹ in producing steadfastness.¹Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up¹ 11 - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the Œstate of a man of unfaltering effort¹.² The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala. > Nina. 23283 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor --- Hello Steve, Thanks for this, however----- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi Azita and Victor > > My understanding is that not only Nibbana but also the Lokuttara > Magga and Phala cittas and cetasikas of Sotapanna,Sakadagami,Anagami > and Arahant can not be objects of clinging. > > My guess on why they cant be objects of clinging is because those > states are free from clinging. I think that it may be possible for a > Sotapanna to have clinging to the thinking/memory of the experience > of Nibbana, but this would be clinging to a concept, not a direct > clinging to Nibbana itself. > > Maybe someone can offer a more knowledgeable answer. > > Azita, you mentioned in another post that you may be able to make it > to the next Cooran meeting? If so looking forward to seeing you again. > > Take care > Steve --I can understand that at the moment of experiencing Nibbana, there is no clinging; have been thinking about it and I wonder if bec. it is so different to anything we now experience eg. conditioned phenomena, that it is an impossibilty to cling to an unconditioned phenomena??? If there is no more knowledgeable answer forthcoming, Steve, it may be a good one for discussion at Cooran. I've applied for that w/e off work, so if I get it, I'll be down - with millions of warm clothes!!!! See you then, patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23284 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 9:46pm Subject: Parents Dear Group, One of the reasons I occasionally wish I had been a Born Buddhist is because that would mean my mother would have been a buddhist already. But this is not so - she is typical of her generation >75years, a staunch Anglican (but doesn't attend church), suspicious of anything not Anglo-Saxon and not accredited by the Queen (as we all know Jesus had blue eyes and auburn hair like the pictures, and don't even think of explaining that he may have looked something like Osama or Saddam). Sometimes I feel the burden of her not knowing the Dhamma, but also feel that anything I would currently say would be disturbing to an elderly lady who is becoming conscious of her own mortality. Her father served in the English army in India eighty years ago, so her idea of any Indian religion or philosophy is rather fixed and negative. Once, she was an agnostic, but these days she clings more tightly to the idea of a loving Saviour-God, and being reunited with her parents, brothers and sisters in heaven. The Buddha tells us: "I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an02-031.html So, what to do? What would be the most compassionate path - not to disturb her need for her beliefs to be true, not to make her anxious? (let sleeping dogs lie). Or to give it a go again, try to discuss the Teachings some more, and perhaps make her unhappy and uncertain? (Once more into the Breach, Deare friends, once more). I am also conscious that the Buddha taught that this human birth was so incredibly rare, with no guarantee when we may have one again, and that this human realm is the only place for worldlings to hear the Dhamma. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 23285 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: What do you do with gratitude? Andrew (and Christine) . . , --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > > Re what to do with the joyful feeling/gratitude, is it not that you > can't do anything with it (beyond experience it) because it has > actually passed into non-existence? > I agree, we can't do anything with it. When we step outside on a glorious, clear winter's night, see the orange clouds, hear the lorikeets in the trees and then be reminded of the Dhamma, we can't do anything about it. So what should we do? I don't think it is necessarily the time to reflect on the nature of pleasant feelings. Why should we single out pleasant feelings when there are all sorts of sense objects and mental objects coming and going at break-neck speeds? The fact that we single out pleasant feeling, suggests that we don't know the difference between 'dhammas' and 'thinking about dhammas.' In the course of daily life, reminders of the Dahmma present precious opportunities but, all too often, forgetfulness occurs immediately afterwards. I know we aren't looking for a formal practice to cling to at such moments, but what thoughts would, ideally, occur to us? Would it be a good time to reflect on one of the four objects of meditation (the Buddha, metta, death, foulness)? (?) Kind regards, Ken 23286 From: Gina Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 1:11pm Subject: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? Hi, Growing up in Thailand, I just went along to the temples. Studied Buddhism in school didn't mean much. Thais don't teach children to understand rather than memorizing Buddha dates, ceremonials, etc. Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? Som 23287 From: Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier Date: Fri Jul 4, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: Parents Dear Christine, Your mother is one of the most preciuos thing you have. As you know , we can not become a monk unless I have my mothers blessings.My mother passed away 2 years ago and she was an staunch Roman Catholic, very suspicious about my feelings in Buddhism. I never tyied to talk about buddhism, I just let her know by my actions and behaviour what buddhism was. Funny enough, when she died and we read her will she requested that her ashes be kept by me at the temple and the day that I die her ashes be mix together with mine and be given a buddhist burial. At her age she just need kindness, love and compassion. No lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions. Metta. Venerable Yanatharo. Ajahn Jose > So, what to do? What would be the most compassionate path - not to > disturb her need for her beliefs to be true, not to make her anxious? > (let sleeping dogs lie). Or to give it a go again, try to discuss > the Teachings some more, and perhaps make her unhappy and uncertain? > (Once more into the Breach, Deare friends, once more). > > I am also conscious that the Buddha taught that this human birth was > so incredibly rare, with no guarantee when we may have one again, and > that this human realm is the only place for worldlings to hear the > Dhamma. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 23288 From: Gina Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 8:39am Subject: Re: Parents You don't have to born as Buddhist. You can always study Buddhism. He teaches us to respect everyone as equal. Somjai --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > One of the reasons I occasionally wish I had been a Born Buddhist is > because that would mean my mother would have been a buddhist > already. ... > So, what to do? What would be the most compassionate path - not to > disturb her need for her beliefs to be true, not to make her anxious? > (let sleeping dogs lie). Or to give it a go again, try to discuss > the Teachings some more, and perhaps make her unhappy and uncertain? 23289 From: Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Parents Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 7/5/03 11:41:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sanz@n... writes: > Dear Christine, > Your mother is one of the most preciuos thing you have. As you know , we can > not become a monk unless I have my mothers blessings.My mother passed away 2 > years ago and she was an staunch Roman Catholic, very suspicious about my > feelings in Buddhism. I never tyied to talk about buddhism, I just let her know > by my actions and behaviour what buddhism was. Funny enough, when she died > and we read her will she requested that her ashes be kept by me at the temple > and the day that I die her ashes be mix together with mine and be given a > buddhist burial. At her age she just need kindness, love and compassion. No > lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions. > Metta. Venerable Yanatharo. Ajahn Jose > ======================== What a lovely post, Bhante. As usual, if I may be forgiven for evaluating, when it comes to matters of the heart you are right on target. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23290 From: Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? Hi Som Dharma is generally twofold in meaning... Either "the reality of existence" or the "teaching about the reality of existence." Karma has a different meaning. Technically it means "action." Karma is something like a "field of ethical energy." This "field" is generated by ethical (morally relevant) actions. Hurtful action produce a "hurtful field" and lead to hurtful results for the "doer." The opposite for actions that result in pleasant experiences. (Almost like electrical fields of energy.) Nirvana means "putting out" as in extinction or extinguish. Since the Buddha determined that "the system" that constitutes a human being is more trouble than its worth and that there is no self at "its" core, merely a delusion of "self," that it was/is best to "put it out." A person that has attained Nirvana while still living has "put out" the karma/action that can lead to future rebirth. Their remaining body/mind system is considered residue from past karma/action. After they die the "residue" is also extinguished. As to whether there is any sort of "after death" experience of an "arahat/fully-enlightened-being" is debated among Buddhists but there seems to be no evidence in the Buddha's teachings to support an "after-life-experience" theory regarding an arahat. Take care. TG In a message dated 7/5/2003 8:38:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, medium@a... writes: > Hi, > > Growing up in Thailand, I just went along to the temples. Studied > Buddhism in school didn't mean much. Thais don't teach children to > understand rather than memorizing Buddha dates, ceremonials, etc. > > Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? > > Som > 23291 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? Hi Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What do you do with gratitude? > Hi, Mike - > > In a message dated 7/3/03 5:55:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > mlnease@z... writes: > > > I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think this > > is consistent with the Dhamma. > ============================ > Following this dictum, Mike, I'm afraid we're all going to have an > existence bereft of delight for a long, long time! > From my perspective, the more free folks are of "self", the more > delight they find in the simplest of things. The monks I have known who are serious > practitioners are among the happiest folks I've ever seen, taking delight in > almost everything. I remember once when I visited a Thai monk at a monastery > not far from my home, there was a tiny, baby cockroach (!) on his saucer. I > said to the monk "It looks like you have a visitor!" He laughed out loud > delightedly, and gently took the little insect into his hand and escorted him out the > door of the monastery. To me, this was a lesson in love and delight. Friendliness, compassion and gladness are all wholesome and can arise with wholesome joy (piiti), as I understand it. > Should we close ourselves off to the pleasure of metta and mudita? To > the pleasure of seeing the play of baby animals? To the pleasure felt at > hearing the first joyful laugh of a human child? Should we suppress what arises, or > just see it clearly and do no harm? I think the latter. Attachment to sense- and mind-pleasures is unwholesome, as I understand it--no matter how 'innocent' the conceptual basis of the attachment. > With metta and the sincerest wish for your delight, Thanks for your comments and good wishes--I hope it's clear now that my comments were meant to distinguish between akusala happiness (attachment to pleasant sense- and mind-objects), kusala happiness (such as that arising with the brahmaviharas you mentioned) and happiness connected with the goal. "...having seen a material shape with the eye, do not be entranced with the general appearance, do not be entranced with the detail; for if one dwells with the organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil, unskillful states of mind, may flow in. So fare along controlling it, guard the organ of sight, achieve control over the organ of sight. Having heard a sound with the ear... Having smelt a smell with the nose... Having savored a taste with the tongue... Having felt a touch with the body... Having cognized a mental state with the mind, do not be entranced with the detail. For if one dwells with the organ of mind uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil, unskillful states of mind, may flow in. So fare along controlling it; guard the organ of mind, achieve control over the organ of mind." Dantabhumi-sutta, Majjhima-Nikaya No. 125 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel051.html Best wishes to you too, Howard, mike p.s. The Buddha's words above were addressed to a bhikkhu, for whom guarding the sense- and mind-doors are much more important than for laypeople, I think. Still very useful to investigate presently arising (and very recently arisen) states, I think. 23292 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: Parents Dear Ajahn Jose, I found your post sensible and full of understanding. Aging is a strange thing, the body grows older but the consciousness and emotions always seem to be about 12 - 14 years old. There is full intelligence, but a person can be easily bewildered and made anxious by the mystery of life and its incomprehensible purpose. I'll take your advice "No lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dr Jose M Sanz-Tonnelier" wrote: > Dear Christine, > Your mother is one of the most preciuos thing you have. As you know , we can not become a monk unless I have my mothers blessings.My mother passed away 2 years ago and she was an staunch Roman Catholic, very suspicious about my feelings in Buddhism. I never tyied to talk about buddhism, I just let her know by my actions and behaviour what buddhism was. Funny enough, when she died and we read her will she requested that her ashes be kept by me at the temple and the day that I die her ashes be mix together with mine and be given a buddhist burial. At her age she just need kindness, love and compassion. No lessons, you show her your love and the buddhist way with your actions. > Metta. Venerable Yanatharo. Ajahn Jose 23293 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:23pm Subject: Re: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? -- hello Som, Sawatdee, kha. Welcome to dsg. I understand karma [kamma] to be action/volition, both good and bad actions [kusala and akusala], which lead to continued rebirth in samsara. Dharma [Dhamma in Pali], has actually many meanings. For example, there is the Buddha's Dhamma, his teachings which we can study; Dhamma can also be used for all realities: quote from a book called 'A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by A. Sujin Boriharnwanaket: 'The real purpose of the study of the Dhamma is, seeing that this very moment is dhamma, non self. All realities, dhammas, have to be known now, when they occur, so that wrong view of self can be eradicated' Nirvana [Nibbana] simply is the end of samsara. The extinction of greed, hatred and ignorance and all their associated states. "This, O monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbana." [A. 111, 32] Hope I haven't overloaded you, Som, with this information. Do you still live in Thailand? and if not, where do you live? - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gina" wrote: > Hi, > > Growing up in Thailand, I just went along to the temples. Studied > Buddhism in school didn't mean much. Thais don't teach children to > understand rather than memorizing Buddha dates, ceremonials, etc. > > Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? > > Som 23294 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 5:31pm Subject: Re: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? --- Dear Som, Apologies, I forgot to sign off my last post to you, My name is Azita, I lived in Thailand for about 2 years many years ago. I come from Australia. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 23295 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Regards to Robert Epstein --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nina, Howard, Mike and other Rob Ep fans, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob Ep, > > I was just going to tell you that I miss you. I understand that you > > cannot > > read all mails and that you need time for inspiration to write and think > > about your work re theater. > .... > I'm not so forgiving;-) I think Rob Ep needs to spend more time talking to > us and hearing about metta and compassion - he obviously doesn't fully > appreciate the suffering that goes with the attachment we all have to his > presence;-( Hi Sarah and Nina. Well it's taken me long enough to be "nudged" into showing up. I'm visiting in-laws in Denver, Colorado here in the U.S. and have a little time in the evening to write. I just wanted to thank all of you on-list for your kind statements towards me. I feel like Nina, in the sense that I did not expect to be so missed. Unlike Nina, I have not done the enormous amount of work she has done to deserve it. Thanks again to all my dhamma friends. I will try to come and stay in contact. Sarah is right: I am a bad person and need a lot of correction! : ) Best, Robert Ep. 23296 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] hi from Rob Ep! Hi Sarah. I am continuing my extremely belated replies to posts. I may disappear again, but I will resurface. If at some point, there is no "I" to resurface, that will be even more pleasant. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > HI!! Rob Ep!! > > So glad you've made it back... I'll hold my breath (plenty of practice > during SARS) and hope you don't run away again too soon;-) Glad SARS seems to have run its course....? Amazing what samsara can come up with, and glad you're okay. > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > >and still can't catch up with the flow of > > life! Hmn....there's a lesson in there somewhere.... > ..... > I was just quoting you to Lee with the `life's been catching up with > me'....I see now you're chasing life!! That's funny, Sarah. Maybe I should just stop running altogether..... > Your book sounds very interesting indeed - I'll look out for it and hope > not to pick up a book by that other Robert Epstein by mistake;-) Well it may be a while before it's published. I'll be a first-time author for publication, so I'll have to lobby for the book to be accepted at an appropriate publisher. Otherwise, I'll eventually do an on-line publishing kind of thing. Thanks for your interest! > Very happy birthday to Emily....(You've also just reminded me that I need > to give my brother a birthday call.) Perhaps your next book could be on > Emily's qus and your responses......do share any. We had a lot of > StarKids (a couple only 7yrs old) during the last year asking very > interesting and challenging questions. James, Kom and others gave some > fine responses - one day look under `children' in Useful Posts for some of > these. Emily would have been very at home. That sounds very interesting. I am a little depressed to see how far ahead of me Emily is already. As my brain cells tire, hers are just getting more electrified. Well, that's one good reason to have children -- I hope she'll remember some of the things I'm forgetting. I am really pretty excited to contemplate the possibilities in life for these advanced little children. Big responsibility to help them cultivate their awareness. > Look forward to reading your comments to Howard, Larry and all. Thanks, Sarah. Once again, I appreciate your warm messages, and am happy to be able to be here. Best, Robert Ep. 23297 From: Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:15am Subject: Burma trip Dear Dhamma friends, After a long wait and much anticipation, the Board of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation finally decided to go with the company that took us to Sri Lanka. The dates of the trip are set for Oct. 20-24 and the cost will be about Bt 27,000 (US$643. approx). It is hoped that the itinerary will be set at long last and that I may be able to send it on to you as soon as possible. In addition, for all those who had signed up for the cancelled Alaska trip, please let me know if you have received the return of your deposits. I have not and and have been trying to contact the person in charge. So, when I hear more about that, I shall pass that info on to you as well. metta, Betty _______________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 e-mail: beyugala@k... 23298 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:25am Subject: THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Dear Larry, I know I'm running way behind the rest of you - I just finished the last post on The Way of Mindfulness by Soma Thera. May I express my deep gratitude for the way you diligently posted excerpts and encouraged discussion over almost eighteen months. Firstly with posting excerpts from Abhidhamma in Daily Life which started at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11786 and continued so regularly to the final post of that series at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15662 And then, graciously agreeing to continue and keep us studying by regularly posting sections from 'The Way of Mindulness' and commentary by Soma Thera, starting at Way 1: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15863 and finally coming to a completion at Way 105: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23070 I know that at times there may have been other things you would rather have done - never once did you voice any complaint or ask to be relieved of the task. This is a great example of faithfulness and dana. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. It is wonderful that even those who recently joined the list can, with a little detective work and the help of the search engine, follow the same course of study. I hope we sorted out that 'Gratitude is Good' because that's what I feel towards you, combined with metta and gladness. Onya Larry! The Quiet Achiever ... warm regards, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23299 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:32am Subject: Re: Burma trip Hello Betty, Great news! Looking forward to seeing the itinerary. I received my Alaska deposit back around about the 18th May. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mom Bongkojpriya \(Betty\) Yugala" wrote: > Dear Dhamma friends, > After a long wait and much anticipation, the Board of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation finally decided to go with the company that took us to Sri Lanka. The dates of the trip are set for Oct. 20- 24 and the cost will be about Bt 27,000 (US$643. approx). It is hoped that the itinerary will be set at long last and that I may be able to send it on to you as soon as possible. > > In addition, for all those who had signed up for the cancelled Alaska trip, please let me know if you have received the return of your deposits. I have not and and have been trying to contact the person in charge. So, when I hear more about that, I shall pass that info on to you as well. > > metta, > Betty > _______________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 > e-mail: beyugala@k... > > > 23300 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi Howard. I'm late again. Hope my comments on this topic will not be completely irrelevant at this point; but I wanted to try to complete the communication. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob - > > In a message dated 6/6/03 1:58:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard. > > I'm not sure which category my sense of consciousness in this context > > would fall into, but to my common sense, Larry's sentence makes sense. > > When he says "the experience of sound is consciousness", and pending > > further clarification, it seems like he is saying that "consciousness > > experiences sound" and therefore when sound is experienced, > > consciousness is implicated. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, I guess he is. I thought at first that he was saying that the > sound was consciousness. I certainly agree that the experiencing of sound (or of > anything else) is consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------------------- If he was saying that the sound *is* consciousness; I hope that would mean that the existence of sound is a form of consciousness, since there would be nothing that could be apprehended as sound except as a vibration within consciousness. In that sense, sound is consciousness. If one were to say, however, that consciousness is nothing but perception through the six sense-gates, then I would disagree with that. Now, I'm not sure which he was saying; I'll have to look up-thread to see if there's a further reply. > I always think of consciousness somewhat> > > as you have described it, as something which "tastes" or "knows" that > > which is its content. It has sentience or awareness to it. It may > > not matter whether that content is posited as existing independently, > > as simply being an object of mind that is part of consciousness > > itself, or if it is not specified what the status of the object of > > consciousness is, but is simply accepted as part of the "experience" > > that consciousness is having at that particular moment. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. There is the experiencing - that's the consciousness, and there > is what is experienced - that is the content or object, of consciousness, and > there is the entire, joint, cognitive event, for which we have no good term. > Perhaps a good term might be 'act of consciousness'. > -------------------------------------------------- I think it's hard to create a distinction between an act of experience as an aspect of consciousness, and the sense that we have with a degree of awareness or mindfulness, that the event being experienced is taking place "within" a more global awareness or consciousness. This usually opens up a big debate about whether consciousnes exists independently of an "act of consciousness". You and I, I think, feel that it does, and that the specific act of consciousness is like a ripple within a greater continuity or continuum of consciousness. The Abhidhammic description of individual conscious cittas and bhavanga cittas seems to be a slightly different model than this; tying consciousness more directly with the act it participates in. > > Thus in hearing a sound, one can, as I think you imply within the > > model of duality of hearer and sound, emphasize the sound as real, or > > the hearing as the experiential actuality. We do not know, since we > > cannot go beyond the mind in our current state, whether the hearing is > > dependent upon an actual sound "in the world", but we do know that the > > apprehension of the sound is completely dependent on hearing. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And also completely dependent on the sound heard. It's like the inside > and the outside of box. There isn't one without the other. So the "duality" > is also a "unity". In fact, it is neither. It is the middle way. > ------------------------------------------------------ I like that; although I tend to think that sound is really a production of mind; that doesn't mean there isn't an object out there vibrating, but that doesn't produce "sound" per se, which is a perceptual-mental event. > So we> > > don't know if we are "sound collectors" but we do know that we are > > definitely "hearers." > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > There is no "we" who are either of these. There is hearing, there is > heard, and they go together. > ------------------------------------------------------- I wonder if the distinction between hearing and heard really exists in the act of hearing either? There may be no "we", no "heard", no "sound" per se, only "hearing" within and as a form of consciousness. > When we go back to the act of hearing and the> > > mind's capacity to "hear", we can experience the mind itself in > > action, and at the point in the mind where the sound is created as > > hearing within the mind itself, there is no sound to be posited > > separte from that hearing. That hearing exists in consciousness > > alone, at least at that point, and so n the inward-facing mode of > > hearing, focussed on the hearing, not the sound, then consciousness, > > hearing and sound are experienced as "one unified experience." > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that, so to speak, there is "one unified experience," but I > think it is actually not-one and not-two. > ---------------------------------------------------------- How would you describe such an understanding positively? I don't really see it as "one" by saying it is unified; more like saying it is "none". Hearing takes place as the sound that is heard due to the hearing capacity of the mind; but in experience I don't think there is a distinction between hearing and sound. > > I used to think that to have this experience I had to somehow > > anaesthesize other parts of the mind, like the running commentary, or > > the sensation of duality, but now I think one can simply turn towards > > the capacity of the consciousness in question and the other dualistic > > processes don't go away, but become much more peripheral. > > > > Anyway, thanks for a chance to stretch the brain cells. This stuff > > seems to make my mind wake up. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What it does to me is make me realize that I really don't know what is > what, and makes me less content with many of the standard answers. What I do > have exceedingly great confidence in is that the path practice the Buddha > taught will, eventually, permit me to really come to see what is what. > -------------------------------------------------------- Without that element of faith it is hard to keep returning to the path; especially since it seems very long. That confidence in the path I think is a great anchor. To see that we don't know what is what is probably a form of real understanding. When intellectual formulations are shown to be mere concepts, the mystery that is revealed is pretty intimidating. I remember when these scientists were getting enormous praise for discovering the pre-energy that existed right after the big bang, before that pre-substance differentiated into matter and energy. Around the same time, scientists, using the Hubble I think, discovered that there were hundreds or thousands of times more galaxies than they had originally thought. The interviewer was trying to praise one of these guys for the discoveries and the scientist said something like: "These discoveries are just totally intimidating. Before this we thought we had a kind of handle on the basic structure of things. Now we have learned enough to realize that for all intents and purposes we are close to completely ignorant. It's like starting from scratch in an infinitely bigger playing field than we had thought imaginable." Best, Robert Ep. 23301 From: Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/6/03 4:35:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Okay. There is the experiencing - that's the consciousness, > and there > >is what is experienced - that is the content or object, of > consciousness, and > >there is the entire, joint, cognitive event, for which we have no > good term. > >Perhaps a good term might be 'act of consciousness'. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > I think it's hard to create a distinction between an act of > experience as an aspect of consciousness, and the sense that we have > with a degree of awareness or mindfulness, that the event being > experienced is taking place "within" a more global awareness or > consciousness. This usually opens up a big debate about whether > consciousnes exists independently of an "act of consciousness". You > and I, I think, feel that it does, and that the specific act of > consciousness is like a ripple within a greater continuity or > continuum of consciousness. The Abhidhammic description of > individual conscious cittas and bhavanga cittas seems to be a > slightly different model than this; tying consciousness more > directly with the act it participates in. > ========================== I'm zeroing in on the above portion of your post, because it seems to include the main issues involved. First of all, I don't think that the distinguishing of discernings from "acts of consciousness" (which are the events consisting of discerning and discerned) implies anything about a "global awareness consciousness". A "global awareness consciousness," if there is such a thing, might be nothing more than the potential for the arising of experiences. The term 'global awareness consciousness' is a bit problematical, I think, in that it suggests a "self" to me. In any case, even if there is no such thing at all, there still remains the matter of distinguishing three things: The knowing, the known, and the event consisting of the co-occurrence of these, for they never occur except interdependently. I've been referring to that event as an "act of consciousness". Actually, it may well be nothing but phassa (contact). A seeming problem with that identification is the following: In Abhidhamma, phassa is a cetasika, and thus a paramattha dhamma. But the discernment and the arammana are also paramattha dhammas, and how can two paramattha dhammas be aspects of another? Now, the Buddha quite clearly, in the suttas, describes contact as the coming together of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness. Does that make phassa a complex, and hence not a paramattha dhamma, but a pa~n~natti? Perhaps not. Perhaps one needs to pay attention to the expression "coming together". Perhaps phassa is not a complex at all, but is the elementary *event* consisting of the co-occurrence of the arammana, the vi~n~nana, and the (activation of the ) dvara, all mutually dependent. In this case, the event of their co-occurrence constitutes a paramattha dhamma that is, itself, interdependent with those other three. Of the four, sense-door activation, discerning, object, and contact, when any of these arise, all arise, and when any of these ceases, all cease. That might be the best understanding of all, in which case my "act of consciousness" is, in fact, just phassa! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23302 From: Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Hi Christine, Thanks for your thanks. As with all these things we study, it would be good to study again. No matter how much we contemplate and practice we are always just beginners. I know I certainly benefited from this slow and methodical reading. Metta and mudita to you, Larry 23303 From: Gina Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 6:34pm Subject: Re: Can anyone explain Nirvana? Is Karma is Dhamma? Hi, I'm Gina from Thailand. I admitted I lost touch with Buddhism because there isn't buddhism where I live. I just move to DC areas and there are wats here. So I'm here to learn about it. I have my own group and hope to take some information here to share with other. Thank you for your post. I don't find book or information about Vipassana. this is a good group and I can benefit from it. Gina http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium/ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > --- > Dear Som, > Apologies, I forgot to sign off my last post to you, > My name is Azita, I lived in Thailand for about 2 years many years > ago. I come from Australia. > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 23304 From: Gina Date: Sat Jul 5, 2003 6:39pm Subject: Vipasana vs Spiritualism (Mediumship) I have one question. I have been involved with Spiritualism and am developed medium. I meditate daily (have not done lately). Can one explain the different between Vipasana insight vs Spiritualist? I can see and communicate with spirit. I can give you any psychic messages that is accurate and tell your past,present and future. That is not what I want to do because it does'nt help me get a decent job, so I create my group to teach other how to be become telepathic, clairvoyant, to heal, etc; perhaps, to use mental to access any information even government top secret. I want to pass my spiritual gifted to any Thais who would be interested to learn. I can't take my knowledge with me when I die and I don't have children since I'm single and am 40. Somjai http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium/ 23305 From: Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 8:34am Subject: wake, sleep, dream Hi all, here's an interesting tidbit from the Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom) p. 251: Through the six kinds of consciousness one does not sleep, awake or dream. Through opposites one sleeps. Through subtle light one awakes. Through apperception (javana) one dreams. L: Anyone know what "through opposites one sleeps" means? Is subtle light a rupa? Larry 23306 From: suzakico Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:54am Subject: Re: my time with A. Sujin. 2. Thank you, Nina for these posts. I am reading with smile and curiocity as a child! Kio 23307 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: gratitude, nature and meditation. Dear Mike, Howard, Ken and all, Mike, I appreciate and thank you for your posts where you explained about joy that is kusala and joy that is akusala, and also the post where you quoted Survey, explaining what is kusala. Any moment of javanacitta as is explained, that is not dana, sila or bhavana, is akusala. I said, I appreciate, anumodana. The word anumodati in Pali is another term for to thank. Anumodana is thankfulness, one can be thankful and appreciate someone else's kusala. Here is no doubt that this gratefulness is kusala. See below for further observations. op 06-07-2003 01:02 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: >>> I see danger in finding delight in conditioned phenomena, and I think > this >>> is consistent with the Dhamma. >> ============================ Howard: Following this dictum, Mike, I'm afraid we're all going to have an >> existence bereft of delight for a long, long time. Mike: Thanks for your comments and good wishes--I hope it's clear now that my > comments were meant to distinguish between akusala happiness (attachment to > pleasant sense- and mind-objects), kusala happiness (such as that arising > with the brahmaviharas you mentioned) and happiness connected with the goal. Nina:We can be very natural, delight in all pleasant things. Like Mike, I am a great lover of nature, of hiking. I love music. Of course so long as we are not anagamis, we have not eradicated attachment to sense pleasures. It is conditioned. Let us remember that it is a conditioned reality. First of all, we have to be very precise on the level of pariyatti, theoretical knowledge. We have to have basic knowledge of kusala citta and akusala citta, and also of the different feelings that can accompany them. Otherwise we will delude ourselves all the time, we shall not reach the goal. It will cause our practice, patipatti, to be wrong. We have to remember that joy, happy feeling, can accompany kusala citta but that it, most of the time, accompanies akusala citta rooted in attachment. We have to know that whatever citta and feeling arises, does so because of conditions. There is no rule what we should do, the question "should or should not" is not realistic. Mike gives us the text: > "...having seen a material shape with the eye, do not be entranced with the > general appearance, do not be entranced with the detail; for if one dwells > with the organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil, > unskillful states of mind, may flow in... > p.s. The Buddha's words above were addressed to a bhikkhu, for whom > guarding the sense- and mind-doors are much more important than for > laypeople, I think. Still very useful to investigate presently arising (and > very recently arisen) states, I think. Nina: this is meant for everybody. There are different levels of guarding the senses, but the most effective way is satipatthana, developing understanding of whatever reality appears, also joy that is akusala. In his teachings the Buddha explained all the time about satipatthana, it is implied in the whole of the Tipoitaka, no matter what we read. An example: yesterday we were hiking, looking at beautiful cornflowers: on account of what was seen there was attachment. But through the nose an unpleasant odour was experienced and aversion arose. We were also thinking of the dung which was the cause of the stench. Different objects through different doorways, arising because of different conditions. There can also be conditions of thinking of impermanence, but this cannot be forced. Since we are becoming older we know that we may not be able to hike much longer. What we enjoy is very temporary. Such thoughts may arise or may not arise, they depend on conditions entirely. We may feel slightly guilty because of our attachment, but also that is a worthy object of satipatthana. As Ken explained, there is no need to single out specific objects: < Why should we single out pleasant feelings when there are all sorts of sense objects and mental objects coming and going at break-neck speeds? The fact that we single out pleasant feeling, suggests that we don't know the difference between 'dhammas' and 'thinking about dhammas.'... Would it be a good time to reflect on one of the four objects of meditation (the Buddha, metta, death, foulness)?> N: Good to be reminded of the difference between 'dhammas' and thinking about dhammas. As I said above, no rule to reflect on these four objects, but reading about them can condition moments of kusala reflection. Sarah also reminded us that when we see our own akusala and want to change it, it is clinging to self most of the time, or conceit. But we can only know for ourselves. We need such a refined understanding of citta and cetasikas. I wrote the other day (my time with A. Sujin 2) that I was so happy people considered me as one of them: when there is an idea of "them and I" there is conceit: I am equal to them. Or, attachment to happy feeling. There can also be kusala moments of appreciation of people's kindness. Our knowledge must be very detailed from the beginning, from the pariyatti level on. If someone feels he needs to sit in formal mediation: there is no rule he should or should not do this. It happens already because of conditions, accumulated inclinations in the past that condition our inclinations today. But the Buddha taught us to be mindful of whatever appears through one of the six doors, no matter what we are doing. When sitting, there may be some stiffness, and then there can be awareness: hardness appears and some uneasiness about it. A co-meditator may cough or may be shifting his posture, again, aversion may arise. Or one likes silence and clings to this. But even when there is silence, some sounds appear, they can be realized as only rupas. Or one expects some progress, and this is clinging again. Many realities are appearing all the time and they can be objects of satipatthana. We do not have to do anything about them, they appear already. Nina. 23308 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Karma Dhamma?. Hi Som, welcome to this list. op 04-07-2003 22:11 schreef Gina op medium@a...: > Now can one explain if Karma is the same as Dharma? N: As T.G. explained, the word dhamma has different meanings. He also explained about kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Azita quoted from Acharn Sujin's Survey to point out the meaning of dhamma in its widest sense: '. It is difficult to answer your question in a few words. Some basic notions will help: In our life there are three kinds of conditioned dhammas: citta (consciousness) cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) rupa (matter or physical phenomena). There is one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. These four dhammas are ultimate realities or paramattha dhamms. If we want to know what kind of reality kamma is, we have to consider in which of these four dhammas it is included. Kamma is actually volition or intention, it is the intention that makes a deed. It is included in cetasika, it is a mental factor arising with citta. This is a short answer, and it takes a lot of study before all is clear. Helpful is: Buddhist Dictionary, by Nyanatiloka, also available in Thai. In the archives (maybe Kom or Christine can help where) is also a list available with basic Pali terms. Chook di, Nina. 23309 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 11:42am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 4 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 4 We read in the Commentary about paññå : ³Wisdom opposes them in so far as greed, etc., create blindness, while knowledge restores sight.² Wisdom is opposed to akusala as it dispels the darkness of attachment and so on and restores sight. As soon as we have seen something, attachment is bound to arise. When paññå is lacking, there is no opposition to lobha which is skilful in clinging to all the sense objects. However, when paññå arises, attachment cannot arise at the same time; paññå is opposed to attachment. Only paññå can dispel the darkness of attachment. When paññå arises, it is able to understand the true nature of the reality that appears. Paññå understands kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. When paññå further develops, it will know the characteristics of realities as they are so that the darkness of ignorance can be overcome. We read about energy and patience: ³Energy opposes lobha by arousing the true way free from both listlessness and restlessness. Patience opposes lobha by accepting the desirable, the undesirable, and emptiness.² Each of the perfections is of great benefit provided we duly reflect on them and gradually accumulate them. If, in circumstances which are a test to our endurance, we reflect on patience, we can accumulate it. There can be patience with regard to disagreeable objects and to desirable objects of which we can realize the emptiness. We read about truthfulness: ³Truthfulness is the opposite of lobha because it proceeds in accordance with fact whether others render help or inflict harm.² Because of truthfulness we can know what is right and what is wrong, no matter in what circumstances we are. We read about determination: ³Determination is the opposite of these three defilements since, after vanquishing the vicissitudes of the world, it remains unshakeable in fulfilling the requisites of enlightenment in the way they have been undertaken.² We should know of ourselves whether we have already firm determination in the development of kusala or not yet. This is necessary so that we become unshakable in accomplishing it. Our determination can easily vacillate, it may not be firm, and our confidence may not be steady. 23310 From: bodhi2500 Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Vimuttimagga Hi Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text within Theravada and DSG? Steve 23311 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Hi Larry and Christine, Yes, I join Christine in thanking you, anumodana, Nina. op 06-07-2003 10:25 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > May I express my deep gratitude for the way you diligently posted > excerpts and encouraged discussion over almost eighteen months. 23312 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ...In any case, even if there is no such thing at all, there still > remains the matter of distinguishing three things: The knowing, the known, and the > event consisting of the co-occurrence of these, for they never occur except > interdependently. I've been referring to that event as an "act of consciousness". > Actually, it may well be nothing but phassa (contact). A seeming problem with > that identification is the following: In Abhidhamma, phassa is a cetasika, > and thus a paramattha dhamma. But the discernment and the arammana are also > paramattha dhammas, and how can two paramattha dhammas be aspects of another? Now, > the Buddha quite clearly, in the suttas, describes contact as the coming > together of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness. Does that make > phassa a complex, and hence not a paramattha dhamma, but a pa~n~natti? Perhaps > not. Perhaps one needs to pay attention to the expression "coming together". > Perhaps phassa is not a complex at all, but is the elementary *event* consisting > of the co-occurrence of the arammana, the vi~n~nana, and the (activation of the > ) dvara, all mutually dependent. In this case, the event of their > co-occurrence constitutes a paramattha dhamma that is, itself, interdependent with those > other three. Of the four, sense-door activation, discerning, object, and > contact, when any of these arise, all arise, and when any of these ceases, all > cease. That might be the best understanding of all, in which case my "act of > consciousness" is, in fact, just phassa! Hi Howard. In the coming together you described above, I would see all the elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, rather than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. When I spoke of a continuum of consciousness, it is that I don't find a time when acts of consciousness actually cease. Do you? Is there a moment when you stop seeing the computer screen and then begin seeing it again, in a series of continuous moments that end and then begin again? I think that such acts of consciousness are certainly interrupted by others, because attention drifts here and there and then back again, but I don't see any regularity or rhythm to this that would break such variations into discrete, equally-spaced or sized units of conscious action. If anyone has evolved to the point where they directly discern the beginning and ending of momentary cittas, I would be excited to hear this described as an actual experience. Meanwhile, experience shows that consciousness continuously processes one thing or another; there is always contact with something, just that the object shifts, and consciousness is thus, to my mind, for all intents and purposes, a continuous stream of acts of awareness. Again, you may say that when the mind daydreams or sleeps or drifts to vague objects of contemplation, that awareness has or conscious thought has ceased and is then later re- activated. It seems more reasonable to me to say that consciousness merely is redirected to another object, but hasn't lost or gained anything. Mindfulness, which involves an actual discernment of the action of consciousness taking place, is another matter, and can indeed be present or absent; but this is only because it has a requirement to be aware in a specific way, which the basic definition of consciousness, as long as one is alive, does not. Best, Robert Ep. 23313 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bodhi2500" wrote: > Hi > Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text > within Theravada and DSG? > > Steve Dear steve, I think the Vimuttimagga may have been composed by the Abhayagiri sect - who are sometimes referred to as "keci" (some) in the commentaries. While many sections are close to the orthodox Theravada tradition it wasn't accepted as part of it. RobertK 23314 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:39pm Subject: Vassa: The Retreat of the Rains. Friends: The Vassa which is the 3 months retreat of the rains start next full moon on July 13. Here The Buddha spoke the first cardinal discourse; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-011a.html Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta: Setting in Motion the Wheel of Truth Therefore friends; Intensify your training! Deepen your study! Arouse enthusiam! Stir up energy! Exert effort! for the understanding of the yet not undertstood, for the realization of the yet unrealized states, for the attaining of the yet unattained stages, for the reaching of the yet unreached levels, Do not let Mara the Evil One find you sleeping, since then this end-maker will sweep you away! : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Any loose act, any corrupt practice, a life of dubious holiness - none of these is of much fruit. Random Dhammapada Verse 312 23315 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Inseparability Friends: INSEPARABILITY: The apparent contrast between: The science of today & The religion of the Buddhas. between: The Nature of Matter & The Knowledge of Dhamma Evaporates completely under ones feet when one fully comprehends the Inseparability of Matter & Mind ... of Name & Form ... of NamaRupa ... : - ] Friendship is truly GREATEST Bhikkhu Samahita SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ He who in this world takes nothing that is not given, be it long or short, small or great, fair or foul, - him I call a Brahmana. Random Dhammapada Verse 409 23316 From: monomuni Date: Sun Jul 6, 2003 8:58pm Subject: Nobody is behind this Carpet! Friends: CONSCIOUSNESS: Consciousness is: the agent & receiver the instrument & tool the process & activity of knowing of cognizing of being aware it is not 'I' it is not 'me' it is not 'mine' it is not 'self' it is just this ... naked awareness, process of knowing, recognizing activity, yet nobody is aware yet nobody knows yet nobody recognizes! Knowledge is, but one who knows is not. Awareness is, but one who is aware is not. Recognition is, but one who recognizes is not! Observation is yet there is No Observer ! There is Nobody behind the Camera yet images are created ! Always new, always different ... Not to keep even for a moment ... There is Nobody behind this Carpet! Remarkable yet true Subtle yet freeing! Sabbe Sankhara Anicca All constructions vanish Sabbe Dhamma Anatta No phenomena are self Friendship is truly GREATEST The entire Motivation behind all of the Noble Life. Yeah! Bhikkhu Samahita Cypress Hut, Gangamulla Bambarella, Tawalantenna 20838. Central Province. SRI LANKA. Email: monomuni@m... : - ] -- A saying of the Buddha from http://metta.lk/ Having tasted the flavour of seclusion and the flavour of appeasement, free from anguish and stain becomes he, imbibing the taste of the joy of the Dhamma. Random Dhammapada Verse 205 23317 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 2:59am Subject: tathagatagarbha Dear Group, What exactly is 'tathagatagarbha'? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23318 From: Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/7/03 1:01:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ...In any case, even if there is no such thing at all, there still > >remains the matter of distinguishing three things: The knowing, > the known, and the > >event consisting of the co-occurrence of these, for they never > occur except > >interdependently. I've been referring to that event as an "act of > consciousness". > >Actually, it may well be nothing but phassa (contact). A seeming > problem with > >that identification is the following: In Abhidhamma, phassa is a > cetasika, > >and thus a paramattha dhamma. But the discernment and the arammana > are also > >paramattha dhammas, and how can two paramattha dhammas be aspects > of another? Now, > >the Buddha quite clearly, in the suttas, describes contact as the > coming > >together of sense door, sense object, and sense consciousness. > Does that make > >phassa a complex, and hence not a paramattha dhamma, but a > pa~n~natti? Perhaps > >not. Perhaps one needs to pay attention to the expression "coming > together". > >Perhaps phassa is not a complex at all, but is the elementary > *event* consisting > >of the co-occurrence of the arammana, the vi~n~nana, and the > (activation of the > >) dvara, all mutually dependent. In this case, the event of their > >co-occurrence constitutes a paramattha dhamma that is, itself, > interdependent with those > >other three. Of the four, sense-door activation, discerning, > object, and > >contact, when any of these arise, all arise, and when any of these > ceases, all > >cease. That might be the best understanding of all, in which case > my "act of > >consciousness" is, in fact, just phassa! > > Hi Howard. > In the coming together you described above, I would see all the > elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, rather > than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis may be as follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept-only, the concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex consisting of vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door activation, sense consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently, and the *event* of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa. -------------------------------------------------------------------- When I spoke of a > > continuum of consciousness, it is that I don't find a time when acts > of consciousness actually cease. Do you? > ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I have experienced (what seems to be) the loss of consciousness, or the beginnings of that, with anaesthesia. Also, at a Goenka retreat, during intense meditation on bodily sensations, when sensations were experienced at the level of "energy pulses", these pulses did seem to be separated by gaps, and those gaps might have been absence of awareness, but I cannot be sure of that. This is, of course, a bit paradoxical - how can absence of awareness be noted when there *is* no awareness! ;-)) Probably, there is not the awareness of no-awareness, but only of the rapid fading of awareness (or reduction of its intensity) that begins the cessation, if such cessation actually occurs. ----------------------------------------------------------- Is there a moment when > > you stop seeing the computer screen and then begin seeing it again, > in a series of continuous moments that end and then begin again? > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There might be. I don't know. I don't consciously register visual experiences so microscopically. ------------------------------------------------------------ I > > think that such acts of consciousness are certainly interrupted by > others, because attention drifts here and there and then back again, > but I don't see any regularity or rhythm to this that would break > such variations into discrete, equally-spaced or sized units of > conscious action. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, to me equal spacing or size doesn't seem to be particularly important. As I understand it, Theravadin Abhidhamma doesn't countenance breaks in awareness, but claims contiguity of cittas, without gaps, with the commentaries explaining apparent gaps as bhavanga cittas. ----------------------------------------------------- If anyone has evolved to the point where they > > directly discern the beginning and ending of momentary cittas, I > would be excited to hear this described as an actual experience. > Meanwhile, experience shows that consciousness continuously > processes one thing or another; there is always contact with > something, just that the object shifts, and consciousness is thus, > to my mind, for all intents and purposes, a continuous stream of > acts of awareness. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly that is the non-meditative, empirical experience of ordinary folks such as we. With intense moment-to-moment concentration during certain meditation, however, there do appear to be "gaps". But these may be moments of relative fading of clarity (to be pessimistic ;-), or they could be very clear bhavanga cittas - or, they could, indeed, be true gaps in consciousness. ------------------------------------------------------ Again, you may say that when the mind daydreams > > or sleeps or drifts to vague objects of contemplation, that > awareness has or conscious thought has ceased and is then later re- > activated. It seems more reasonable to me to say that consciousness > merely is redirected to another object, but hasn't lost or gained > anything. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the idea of an ongoing stream of awareness without gap, but merely changing its "content" is hard to distinguish from that of an ongoing stream of contiguous cittas, except in the *sense* of the two views, and the kinds of error they are subject to. The first formulation has the flavor of "continuity", and the second has the flavor of "contiguity". Each has its appeal, and each has its defects. The first model involves the "danger" of eternalism-substantialism, and the second model has the "danger" of annihilationism. The second model, however, besides being subject to the error of annihilationism, *also* has the danger of substantialism if the individual cittas are viewed as having "own-being" during the time of their "existence", for then one has the view of entities with core that are cut off, giving a combined substantialist-annihilationist perspective. So, both models have their danger. Of course, the reality is what it is, and surely is inadequately described by either model. I tend to think that the safest course is not to *commit* to either model, but, rather, to just accept the general principles laid down by the Buddha (the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, dependent origination, etc), and to follow his training. -------------------------------------------------------- Mindfulness, which involves an actual discernment of the > > action of consciousness taking place, is another matter, and can > indeed be present or absent; but this is only because it has a > requirement to be aware in a specific way, which the basic > definition of consciousness, as long as one is alive, does not. > > Best, > Robert Ep. > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23319 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 9:38am Subject: Re: tathagatagarbha Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, What exactly is 'tathagatagarbha'? metta and peace, Christine KKT: Tathagata = lit. "Thus-gone/Thus-come" one of the 10 titles of the Buddha. Therefore, Tathagata or Buddha is the same thing. Garbha = Embryo or Womb. Tathagata-garbha = Embryo of Buddha or germ of the Buddha. Tathagata-garbha is another word of Buddha-nature. This is the ultimate teaching of Mahayana which states that every being possesses the germ of Buddha (ie. the 'potential' to become a Buddha) There are 2 interpretations: __This embryo is only under the form of a 'germ' and needs to be developed to become a fully enlightened Buddha (ie. one needs to practice, cultivate) __This embryo of Buddha is already << a fully enlightened Buddha >> inside oneself. Therefore all one needs is simply to recognize it (ie. no need of cultivation, practice) This is the teaching of sudden enlightenment. Peace, KKT 23320 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipasana vs Spiritualism (Mediumship) Dear Som, op 06-07-2003 03:39 schreef Gina op gina_insight@y...: > I have one question. I have been involved with Spiritualism and am > developed medium. I meditate daily (have not done lately). Can one > explain the different between Vipasana insight vs Spiritualist? I > can see and communicate with spirit. I can give you any psychic > messages that is accurate and tell your past,present and future. Nina: We read in the Suttas about devas and ghosts, and we learn about other planes of existence. Some people can see or hear devas and ghosts. This is not strange, there are conditions for everything that happens. If someone has special powers this is condiitoned by the past, one may have developed a kind of concentration in a past life. Through vipassana one learns not to take special experiences for self and cling to them as mine. When we were on pilgrimage in India several of us heard monks chanting, but there were no monks chanting. I told Acharn Sujin and her answer was: do not cling to this. People may pay undue attention to special experiences or cling to rites and rituals. This distracts from our first and foremost task: know the nama and rupa appearing at the present moment. Know your own citta now, know when there is clinging. The teachings are the greatest marvel, they can help us to cling less to self, to understand our life. We should remember the Sangarava sutta (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, ch 6, § 60, III) : we read about three marvels: miraculous powers, thought reading and the marvel of teaching. The last one is the greatest marvel : how to apply one's mind, abandon defilements, acquire what is beneficial. There were aeons of past lives and there will be aeons of future lives, and therefore, instead of trying to learn about our past and future, is it not more beneficial to understand this very moment? When you have the gift of healing, you can do this with kindness and compassion, so that others feel better. But the effect is temporal, we still have dukkha so long as we are in the cycle of birth and death. The Buddha is the greatest healer: when we follow his teaching we can be cured of the real dukkha: being born again and again because of our ignorance and defilements. May we all appreciate the greatest marvel and have confidence in the greatest Healer, Nina. 23321 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] my time with A. Sujin 3. Dear Kio and all, Kio asked: In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types of citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? Nina: My time with A. Sujin 3. At breakfast I listened to A. Sujin¹s radio program and heard time and again the terms denoting the different cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind-door processes. Thai and Pali are very close, and in this way I could learn all these terms. But becoming used to these terms does not mean experiencing all the different cittas. A. Sujin explained that intellectual understanding is a foundation for awareness that can arise later on. She stressed foundation knowledge, knowledge of the details of cittas, of their different characteristics, of cetasikas (mental factors), such as feeling, akusala cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas and rupas. Indeed, as we read in the suttas, listening, considering are most important conditions for the arising of satipatthana, sati and panna that directly realize characteristics of nama and rupa. We begin to recognize attachment, lobha, and aversion, dosa, in our lives, and this is useful, but we should not take this for awareness. For many years I thought that thinking was awareness. We may think without words, recognize realities very quickly, but, when we are very sincere, there is still an idea of self who does so. It is not panna of satipatthana. I began to know that laughing is conditioned by lobha, and this made me feel somewhat uneasy when laughing. I had an idea of wanting to suppress laughing. Lobha again. A. Sujin explained that we should behave very naturally, and not force ourselves not to laugh. Just do everything that you are used to doing, but in between right understanding can be developed. ³We have to know our good moments and our worst moments in a day², she said. I read a sutta where the Buddha spoke to the monks about women and compared a woman to a snake. I did not like that. A. Sujin answered that this sutta can remind us of our accumulated defilements. If right understanding is not developed, accumulated defilements can cause the arising of many kinds of aksuala, and then we are like a snake. In other words, we should profit from the message contained in a sutta, learning how dangerous akusala is. Moreover, by this sutta the Buddha warned the monks of the danger of getting involved with women. A. Sujin helped me to see the danger of what is accumulated in past lives. We never know how these accumulations can condition cittas at the present. We may do things we did not believe ourselves capable of. When I listened to her lectures in the temple I became sometimes depressed when I realized how difficult the development of right understanding is. Would I ever be able to reach the goal? But I had no inclinations to look for another way that could hasten the development of right understanding. A. Sujin explained that clinging to progress will not help us at all. When we have more understanding of aeons we will be less inclined to think of progress. Before this life there were aeons of ignorance, and in this life we are fortunate to be able to listen to the teachings and begin to understand the way of development of the eightfold Path. But it has to be a long way before we reach the goal. We can learn to accept that this will take more than one life. Time and again A. Sujin repeated what the Buddha said in the Exhortation to the Patimokkha: Patience is the greatest ascetism. Nina (to be continued). 23322 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vimuttimagga Hi Steve op 07-07-2003 00:23 schreef bodhi2500 op Bodhi2500@a...: > Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text > within Theravada and DSG? N: It is not part of the canon. A. Sujin said once to me that many things in this work are similar to the Visuddhimagga. In the Vis. transl. (Nyanamoli) in front, bibliography: Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, a comparative study , P.V. Bapat, Poona. There is also a transl from the Chinese version. Chinese versions are very old, I have heard. You are also on Pali yahoo list, aren't you? You could ask Dimitri, who studies it. Nina. 23323 From: dwlemen Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 0:08pm Subject: Putting into practice Everyone, I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, my question is, how are they experienced? With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into these elementary cittas? As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people can throw my way! :-) Peace, Dave 23324 From: yasalalaka Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 2:17pm Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Steve > op 07-07-2003 00:23 schreef bodhi2500 op Bodhi2500@a...: > > Would the Vimuttimagga be considered an authoritative text > > within Theravada and DSG? > N: It is not part of the canon. A. Sujin said once to me that many things > in this work are similar to the Visuddhimagga. > In the Vis. transl. (Nyanamoli) in front, bibliography: Vimuttimagga and > Visuddhimagga, a comparative study , P.V. Bapat, Poona. > There is also a transl from the Chinese version. Chinese versions are very > old, I have heard. > You are also on Pali yahoo list, aren't you? You could ask Dimitri, who > studies it. > Nina. _____________________________________________________ Please permit me to add a word: The Visuddhimagga, is a collectionction of Commentaries, on the Tri -Pitaka. (with special emphasis on Meditation), translated in to Pali by, Venerable Buddhaghosa, a highly learned monk from South India. The Vimuttimagga,was written by an Arahat Upatissa, this covers the same subject, and was written in the 4 th century and existed when Venerable Buddhaghosa compiled the Vusuddhimagga, the Original of the book was lost, but a Chinese translation of it had been found, and the Englishs translation was made from the Chinese text. There are apparently few differences between the two. Visuddhimagga is said to be more comprehensive and scholarly. Venerable Buddhaghosa had utilised the tripitaka for his work., but Vimuttimagga is said to contain little of Abhidhamma. An anecdote about the Visuddhimagga is that when Venerable Buddhaghosa completed his first work, it was hidden by the Devas, and the Venerable Buddhaghosa, wrote it again , and when that was completed it was again hidden by the Devas, then the Venerable wrote it for the third time. The Devas then returned the previous two works. And it is said that the text of the three books were exactly the same, word to word. Visuddhimagga is by far the well known, and a household word among amoung the Buddhists. with metta, Yasa 23325 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Anumodanaa to you, Yasa. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: yasalalaka To: Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:17 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga > Please permit me to add a word: The Visuddhimagga, is a > collectionction of Commentaries, on the Tri -Pitaka. (with special > emphasis on Meditation), translated in to Pali by, Venerable > Buddhaghosa, a highly learned monk from South India. > > The Vimuttimagga,was written by an Arahat Upatissa, this covers the > same subject, and was written in the 4 th century and existed when > Venerable Buddhaghosa compiled the Vusuddhimagga, the Original of > the book was lost, but a Chinese translation of it had been found, > and the Englishs translation was made from the Chinese text. There > are apparently few differences between the two. Visuddhimagga is > said to be more comprehensive and scholarly. Venerable > Buddhaghosa had utilised the tripitaka for his work., but > Vimuttimagga is said to contain little of Abhidhamma. > > An anecdote about the Visuddhimagga is that when Venerable > Buddhaghosa completed his first work, it was hidden by the Devas, > and the Venerable Buddhaghosa, wrote it again , and when that was > completed it was again hidden by the Devas, then the Venerable wrote > it for the third time. The Devas then returned the previous two > works. And it is said that the text of the three books were > exactly the same, word to word. > > Visuddhimagga is by far the well known, and a household word among > amoung the Buddhists. > with metta, > Yasa 23326 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: Putting into practice Hello Dave, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, > my question is, how are they experienced? > Cittas are the experience. For example, what we take for my experience, is in reality, just cittas arising and falling away. Cittas can only really be known by other cittas. There is nothing, no thing, other than citta that experiences. This, I consider, a very simplyfied answer, bec. cittas do not arise alone, they are accompanied by cetasikas, however I will not go further into this as this was not your question. Personally, I think some knowledge of the Abhidhamma is essential for understanding the Buddha's Dhamma. > With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it > possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > With study, one can know the different elements. You ask about 'sound' and 'barking dog'. Good question. 'Sound' is the reality - rupa - which is experienced by the citta which arises at the ear base. 'barking dog' is a concept, it can only be a object of thinking. > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is > there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? > A big question! and one I don't feel I can answer fully at this time. Briefly tho, there is the development of insight which is different to formal meditation. Insight is the development of wisdom which can know these realities for what they are, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. Again, I'm simplifying, but in the beginning, one needs to have theoretical knowledge of what realities are and are not, before one can 'have' a practice. You have started already by asking questions. keep it up, Dave, your questions help us all or more personally, helps me. > As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people can > throw my way! :-) > > Peace, > > > Dave patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 23327 From: Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice Hi, Azita (and Dave) - There are a couple points you raise in the following that I would like to question a bit. In a message dated 7/7/03 8:20:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > > Hello Dave, > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > >Everyone, > > > >I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From > what > >I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > >can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory > is, > >my question is, how are they experienced? > > > Cittas are the experience. For example, what we take for my > experience, is in reality, just cittas arising and falling away. > Cittas can only really be known by other cittas. > There is nothing, no thing, other than citta that experiences. > This, I consider, a very simplyfied answer, bec. cittas do not > arise alone, they are accompanied by cetasikas, however I will not go > further into this as this was not your question. > Personally, I think some knowledge of the Abhidhamma is essential > for understanding the Buddha's Dhamma. > > > >With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is > it > >possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > > > > With study, one can know the different elements. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: With study one can know *about* different elements (or what has been *said* about them), but direct experience is required to know them. ------------------------------------------------------- > You ask about 'sound' and 'barking dog'. Good question. > 'Sound' is the reality - rupa - which is experienced by the citta > which arises at the ear base. > 'barking dog' is a concept, it can only be a object of thinking. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is true. But this can be misunderstood. Does there not exist a namarupic stream separate from the "human" one that "hears" the barking sound, and which corresponds to what we think of as "the dog"? That other namarupic stream, I agree, isn't a self-existing "thing" any more than yours or mine is; it is an ongoing sequence of interdependent mindstates involving acts of knowing, objects known, and accompanying functions that are actually occuring phenomena and that are interrelated in many ways. The point is: Sure, there is just sound occurring in our namarupic stream, and we think of it as "dog barking". But the thought "I hear a dog barking" is not fully off base! The thought "I hear a dog barking" is a high-level, very complex abbreviation of the fact that a multitude of actual relations hold within another namarupic stream, and that there is an interaction between the "human" stream and the "dog" stream. Nowm none of what I'm trying to say is easy to say, but I think there is considerable validity to it. The bottom line is that our concept of a dog barking, in its own abbreviational way, embodies and reveals some very real and complex information. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is > >there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > >these elementary cittas? > > > > A big question! and one I don't feel I can answer fully at this > time. Briefly tho, there is the development of insight which is > different to formal meditation. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: It can certainly *include* certain formal meditation practices. It does not exclude, for example, the formal meditation practices taught by such as Mahasi Sayadaw, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, and Mr. Goenka, to name just a few. The Buddha taught ongoing mindfulness practice, to be sure, this constituting a good part of the Satipatthana Sutta, but he also taught a more formal practice. The Satipatthana Sutta begins with formal sitting meditation on the breath, and the Anapanasati Sutta, on mindfulness of breathing, is given as a way of implementing the four foundations of mindfulness presented in the Satipatthana Sutta. -------------------------------------------------- Insight is the development of wisdom > > which can know these realities for what they are, impermanent, not > self and unsatisfactory. > Again, I'm simplifying, but in the beginning, one needs to have > theoretical knowledge of what realities are and are not, before one > can 'have' a practice. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: True. But how *much* theoretical knowledge is required before one can begin? The Buddha again and again reminded his followers that there are roots of trees, and they should go and meditate. Few of his followers were scholars. Almost none knew Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------- > You have started already by asking questions. keep it up, Dave, > your questions help us all or more personally, helps me. > > >As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people > can > >throw my way! :-) > > > >Peace, > > > > > >Dave > > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23328 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 7, 2003 9:34pm Subject: Re: Putting into practice Dave, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dwlemen" wrote: > Everyone, > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, > my question is, how are they experienced? > ------------- Cittas, and other dhammas, are experienced all the time. The trouble is, the cittas that experience them, do not have right understanding. In the absence of right understanding, dhammas are automatically incorporated into our illusory, conceptual, worlds (eg., "this is MY consciousness"). --------------- > With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it > possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > --------------- Yes, from what you have read, you already know that audible object is different from "barking dog." So, to that extent, you have accumulated some right understanding. Occasionally, accumulated right understanding will condition kusala cittas -- moments of alobha and adosa. It may even condition direct right understanding (panna). In the early stages, panna will directly know that audible object is rupa (as distinct from nama). This can happen right now, or at any other time -- there is no control over conditions. ------------------- > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. Is > there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? > --------------------- Yes, by hearing, reflecting on, and discussing the Dhamma with good friends, we learn to apply our accumulated understanding to the present moment. The Pali Canon and its commentaries contain voluminous information on formal meditation in relation to the development of jhana. Jhana is a subject quite distinct from vipassana. There is no mention of vipassana meditation in the ancient literature. ----------------- > As always, I look forward to any and all insight you good people can > throw my way! :-) > ----------------- Thanks for asking the questions; I look forward to replies from the addressee --- ie., Everyone. :-) Kind regards, Ken 23329 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 0:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Hi Howard. > > In the coming together you described above, I would see all the > > elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, rather > > than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis may be as > follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept- only, the > concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex consisting of > vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door activation, sense > consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently, and the *event* > of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yikes, Howard. I may be getting a little confused, if I wasn't already. I thought that the original object of our discussion was a moment of perception of an object, and thus the act of consciousness would be one of perception, rather than a perceptual moment. Of course, I may not understand correctly what is meant by "contact"; but I am seeing it as consciousness touching the object through the opening of the sense-door, thus "grasping" the object. Is there any conceptualization in that moment of immediate perception? If there is, it is not a rupa, and would seem to take the definition of a rupa out of the picture altogether. Am I confused in thinking this? The rest of what you say about the two views of continuity and contiguity, and their potential traps, does make sense to me, and I like your solution of adhering to basic principles and continuing observation with an open view. I don't deny that there may be phases or breaks between specific acts of consciousness, and that these may be perceived in deeper levels of observation or meditation. I just tend to question whether these are in discrete, pre-ordained units or measures. I think what you said about this, that it is not particularly important how these are technically described, actually gets rid of a lot of problems which are not verifiable in any case, and will neither hinder nor accelerate real progress towards understanding. Thanks for that. Best, Robert Ep. =============================] 23330 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 4:37am Subject: The Buddha On Sleeping And Dreaming Dear Dhamma friends How are you? The Buddha indicated the existence of a link between sati (recollection / mindfulness) and sleeping or dreaming in the Discourse on the mindlessness. For the convenience of Pali readers, I also posted the Pali text in addition to my translation. 10. MU.T.THASSATI SUTTAM 210. "Pañcime, bhikkhave, aadiinavaa mu.t.thassatissa asampajaanassa niddam okkamayato. Katame pañca? Dukkham supati, dukkham pa.tibujjhati, paapakam supinam passati, devataa na rakkhanti, asuci muccati. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca aadiinavaa mu.t.thassatissa asampajaanassa niddam okkamayato. "Pañcime, bhikkhave, aanisamsaa upa.t.thitassatissa sampa jaanassa niddam okkamayato. Katame pañca? Sukham supati, sukham pa.tibujjhati, na paapakam supinam passati, devataa rakkhanti, asuci na muccati. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca aanisamsaa upa.t.thitassatissa sampajaanassa niddam okkamayato"ti. DISCOURSE ON THE MINDLESSNESS 210. Monks, there are these five disadvantages of the mindless, imprudent person falling to sleep. What are the five? He sleeps in misery, wakes up in misery, sees the bad dream, has no gods to protect him, and emit semen. Monks, these indeed are the five disadvantages of the mindless, imprudent person falling to sleep. Monks, there are these five advantages of the mindful, prudent person falling to sleep. What are the five? He sleeps in comfort, wakes up in comfort, does not see the bad dream, has gods to protect him, and does not emit semen. Monks, these indeed are the five advantages of the mindful, prudent person falling to sleep. Section 210, Mu.t.thassatisuttam, Pañcakanipaata Pali, Anguttaranikaayo. NOTE Asuci - this term may mean waste matter as well as semen. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org 23331 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 6:05am Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard Dear Howard, Dave, Azita and all How are you? Howard wrote: "Few of his (the Buddha's) followers were scholars." I agree with Howard. Howard also wrote: "Almost none knew Abhidhamma." We need to stay awhile on this. Everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana. The teachings about those four ultimates can be found in various narrative forms in Suttas, Vinayas, and Abidhamma Pi.taka. The four ultimate realities are discussed bits by bits by using designations like Bhikkhu, King, Brahmin, and personal pronouns like I, you, they, in the situational manner in Suttas and Vinayas.. The only thing that, in general, distinguishes Abhidhamma Pi.taka from the other two Pi.takas is that the former describes the ultimate realities without referring to designations and personal pronouns. Therefore, Howard's statement "Almost none knew Abhidhamma (in the Buddha's time)." can be true only if it meant Abhidhamma Pi.taka because this Pi.taka was specialized by Saraiputta and his five hundred Bhikkhu followers. But, all other followers of the Buddha, be they ascetics or laypersons, have been constantly exposed to bits and pieces of abhidhamma as the four ultimate realities in various permutations through the Suttas and Vinaya teachings. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Howard: True. But how *much* theoretical knowledge is required before one can begin? The Buddha again and again reminded his followers that there are roots of trees, and they should go and meditate. Few of his followers were scholars. Almost none knew Abhidhamma. > Hi, Azita (and Dave) - > > There are a couple points you raise in the following that I would like > to question a bit. With metta, > Howard 23332 From: Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] mind, mind objects, intellect and ideas - confused? Hi, Rob - In a message dated 7/8/03 3:38:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@Y... writes: > >>Hi Howard. > >>In the coming together you described above, I would see all the > >>elements that co-occur as part of the act of consciousness, > rather > >>than reducing it all to contact. That is fine. > >> > >----------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, I'm tending to think that the the correct analysis > may be as > >follows: The "act of consciousness" is a citta, and it is concept- > only, the > >concept, itself, being a mental construct or thought of a complex > consisting of > >vi~n~nana, arammana, and numerous cetasika. The sense-door > activation, sense > >consciousness, and sense object do all co-arise, interdependently, > and the *event* > >of their co-arising is the cetasika, phassa. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yikes, Howard. I may be getting a little confused, if I wasn't > already. I thought that the original object of our discussion was a > moment of perception of an object, and thus the act of consciousness > would be one of perception, rather than a perceptual moment. Of > course, I may not understand correctly what is meant by "contact"; > but I am seeing it as consciousness touching the object through the > opening of the sense-door, thus "grasping" the object. Is there any > conceptualization in that moment of immediate perception? If there > is, it is not a rupa, and would seem to take the definition of a > rupa out of the picture altogether. Am I confused in thinking > this? > ============================ I think that the conversation is probably getting overly complex (and perhaps of little benefit ;-), and also that we may be talking apples and oranges. But to pursue it a drop more, perhaps to clarify a little: On the occasion that discerning of an object occurs, there arise the knowing (vi~n~nana), the known (arammana - could be nama or rupa), and other mental functions pertaining to the arammana (cetasikas); no one of these ever arises without the others arising - they are interdependent and co-occuring, but different, phenomena. One of the cetasikas, contact (phassa), is the interdependent, joint occurrence of sense-door activation, sense consciousness, and sense object. It is not the collection consisting of the three, but the *event* of their joint activation. As the Buddha said in the suttas, *the coming together* [my emphasis] of the three is contact. [An aside: That contact is classified by Abhidhamma always as nama, even though two of the three dhammas that come together may be rupas!] The *collection* of those three, however, is not a directly experienced phenomenon/actuality/paramattha dhamma; it is concept-only (though well-grounded concept). The paramattha dhammas that are known, in this context, are the knowing (vi~n~nana), the known (arammana), the associated functions (cetasika), and their coming together (phassa). Now, what we call an "act of consciousness" or a "mindstate" could be any several different things. Among these are certain *collections* of things that are only pa~n~natti. One candidate is the collection consisting of 1) knowing of an object, 2) the object known, and 3) the concomitant functions. Another is the collection consisting of 1) sense-door activation, 2) knowing of an object through that sense-door, and 3) the object known (i.e., the *collection* of the three things whose co-arising - an event, not a collection - is the cetasika of contact). I hope this clarifies what I'm saying. If not, well, so what? We don't need to be particularly certain about any of this business. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23333 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard Hi Suan, What is the Buddha's teaching? It is: The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened. It is the four noble truths: dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Howard, Dave, Azita and all > > How are you? > > Howard wrote: > > "Few of his (the Buddha's) followers were scholars." > > I agree with Howard. > > Howard also wrote: > > "Almost none knew Abhidhamma." > > We need to stay awhile on this. > > Everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense > of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and > nibbana. > > The teachings about those four ultimates can be found in various > narrative forms in Suttas, Vinayas, and Abidhamma Pi.taka. > > The four ultimate realities are discussed bits by bits by using > designations like Bhikkhu, King, Brahmin, and personal pronouns like > I, you, they, in the situational manner in Suttas and Vinayas.. > > The only thing that, in general, distinguishes Abhidhamma Pi.taka > from the other two Pi.takas is that the former describes the ultimate > realities without referring to designations and personal pronouns. > > Therefore, Howard's statement "Almost none knew Abhidhamma (in the > Buddha's time)." can be true only if it meant Abhidhamma Pi.taka > because this Pi.taka was specialized by Saraiputta and his five > hundred Bhikkhu followers. > > But, all other followers of the Buddha, be they ascetics or > laypersons, have been constantly exposed to bits and pieces of > abhidhamma as the four ultimate realities in various permutations > through the Suttas and Vinaya teachings. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw 23334 From: Gina Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 9:04am Subject: Need Vispasana Insight Meditation Information Hi, Can anyone recommend link to vispasana meditation to develop insight? I want to compare to Spiriutalist meditation for mediumship. Thank Gina http://groups.yahoo.com/group/medium 23335 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 9:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] THANK YOU LARRY! SADHU, SADHU, SADHU! Larry I'd like to add my thanks to those already expressed by Christine and Nina. I have very much appreciated the installments of 'Way', your questions, and the discussions that have been generated (many thanks to Nina, too, for all her comments). Looking forward to the next venture (any thoughts or suggestions as yet?) Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and Christine, > Yes, I join Christine in thanking you, > anumodana, > Nina. 23336 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 10:02am Subject: Perfections Ch 11, Equanimity, no 5 Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 5 We read about mettå: ŒLoving-kindness is the opposite of greed, hatred, and delusion, through its seclusion from the hindrances.² The hindrances (nívarana) are: sensuous desire (kåmacchanda), ill-will (vyåpåda), sloth and torpor (thína-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca) and doubt (vicikicchå). It is said that loving-kindness is the opposite of lobha because it is free from the hindrances. Only paññå can know whether there are hindrances or not. If there is no paññå one may erroneously believe that there is mettå. In reality there may be lobha, which is the hindrance of sensuous desire. Paññå is essential, and it is also the factor which causes all kusala to further develop. We read about equanimity: ³And equanimity is their opposite by dispelling attraction and repulsion towards desirable and undesirable objects, respectively, and by proceeding evenly under varying circumstances.² We should investigate the characteristics of all ten perfections and see their benefit : they are opposed to akusala dhammas. Realities are non-self, they are beyond control. Cittas arise and fall away all the time in succession, and this causes people¹s lives to be different: they have accumulated different kammas which produce different results and also different inclinations which condition their varied ways of thinking. We read in the Commentary to the ³Kindred Sayings² (II, Ch XII, 6, Tree Suttas, § 60, The base, Nidåna Sutta) that the Dhamma taught by the Buddha for the benefit of all beings can be compared to a thousand goods which are laid down on each door-step for the benefit of the family. Some people may open the door and receive all those goods that are piled up before their door-step whereas others do not even open their door. Ignorance is the condition for not seeing the benefit of the Dhamma, whereas paññå is the condition for realizing its benefit. Each moment of listening to the Dhamma is beneficial. There may not always be an opportunity to apply the Dhamma, but when we have listened to it, there are conditions for kusala dhammas to develop and akusala dhammas to gradually decrease. We should have appreciation for someone who explains the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. As we have seen, the Buddha¹s teaching can be compared to the laying down of a thousand goods before each house-door. We read in another section of the same Commentary that people are confused and disturbed because of not understanding cause and result which take their course at each moment. This is compared to a cotton thread that is entangled, that has become a knot or a ball which one cannot entangle by oneself. The Commentary states: ³Only two kinds of Bodhisattas can entangle the knot, namely, the Sammasambuddha and the Solitary Buddha (Pacceka Buddha [1]) who have accumulated the perfections so as to realize the four noble Truths by themselves.² Footnote: 1. A Pacceka Buddha, a Solitary Buddha, has realized the Truth without having heard it from someone else, but he cannot proclaim the Dhamma to the world. The Sammasambuddha has realized the Truth without having heard it from someone else, and he can proclaim the Dhamma to the world. 23337 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Putting into practice Dear Dave, op 07-07-2003 21:08 schreef dwlemen op dwlemen@y...: > > I have a question about the Abhidhamma, as discussed here. From what > I've read here, there are cittas that arise and fall away. While I > can, at an academic/conceptual level "understand" what the theory is, > my question is, how are they experienced? Nina:Only panna can realize the true nature of nama and rupa, and later on their arising and falling away. How does panna arise: because of the appropriate conditions: studying, listening, pondering over what you heard, considering nama and rupa in daily life. The goal is: less clinging to an idea of self. This means, the development which is right should lead to less clinging to self, and this from the beginning. Each person can only verify for himself whether he is on the right track leading to this goal. The Abhidhamma helps us to see that at each moment there is momentary death. Hearing arises, but it falls away, it dies. Thinking arises, but it falls away. Each citta experiences only one object. Hearing experiences sound, thinking experiences a story or concept of a dog. Seeing experiences visible object. Nobody can direct the different cittas which each experience only one object. They all proceed according to conditions. When we notice that a dog is barking there is already thinking of a story, not hearing. Hearing only hears sound, nothing else, it does not think. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that there are different processes of cittas, that a sense-door process is not the same as a mind-door process. This is an approach different from science which has another field and another objective. But it will take a long time of considering and being aware before we really know: it is only seeing that sees, it is hearing that hears, it is thinking that thinks, no self. D: With practice, do you actually discern the different elements? Is it > possible to seperate "sound" from "barking dog"? > It's been my impression that many here are not big on meditation. N: It depends on what you mean by meditation. Is vipassana developed in daily life not mental development, bhavana? Both samatha and vipassana are bhavana. Not everyone has skill to attain jhana, but there are also four meditation subjects for every occasion, for daily life, as you may have read in former posts: recollection of the Triple Gem, metta, recollection of death and the foulness of the body. Samatha is a way of kusala. But right understanding is needed for both samatha and vipassana. Mindfulness of breathing is a most difficult subject of meditation, it is very subtle. Before one realizes it there is already clinging to breath, clinging to progress. I have not read anywhere in the scriptures that the Buddha said that everybody should have mindfulness of breathing first. See in the archives: anapanasati. I made a study of it, also of the Co to the anapanasati sutta. Jon and Rob Ep had a long discussion about this. To whom did the Buddha address this sutta? To monks who were ripe for enlightenment, even arahatship. Some monks had accumulated skill for jhana and they could attain jhana with this subject. But, after emerging from jhana, they had to be mindful of nama and rupa, also the cetasikas which are the jhanafactors. In their case jhana was the proximate cause of insight. This is all very carefully explained in the commentary. Also in the Visuddhimagga. In the end nama and rupa have to be realized as non-self, no matter one develops first samatha to the degree of jhana or not. D: Is there another way to train the mind to break each moment apart into > these elementary cittas? N: If we try to separate different elements, we do not let panna work its way. We try to interfere, there is an idea of self who tries to do this. It will not be helpful to try to break each moment apart, and it is impossible. Panna and sati arise because of conditions and when the conditions are right, panna can develop. Patience is needed. I will continue with this subject in my series. When delving into my memories I realize how long it took me before I gained a little more understanding. I have to stress the word little. Nina. 23338 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard Hi Suan, ----- Original Message ----- From: abhidhammika To: Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 6:05 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard > Everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense > of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and > nibbana. > > The teachings about those four ultimates can be found in various > narrative forms in Suttas, Vinayas, and Abidhamma Pi.taka. > > The four ultimate realities are discussed bits by bits by using > designations like Bhikkhu, King, Brahmin, and personal pronouns like > I, you, they, in the situational manner in Suttas and Vinayas.. > > The only thing that, in general, distinguishes Abhidhamma Pi.taka > from the other two Pi.takas is that the former describes the ultimate > realities without referring to designations and personal pronouns. > > Therefore, Howard's statement "Almost none knew Abhidhamma (in the > Buddha's time)." can be true only if it meant Abhidhamma Pi.taka > because this Pi.taka was specialized by Saraiputta and his five > hundred Bhikkhu followers. > > But, all other followers of the Buddha, be they ascetics or > laypersons, have been constantly exposed to bits and pieces of > abhidhamma as the four ultimate realities in various permutations > through the Suttas and Vinaya teachings. This is how I see it too. I would add that the four noble truths are abhidhamma (paramatthadesanaa) (as well as sammutidesanaa) and that paticcasamuppaada is abhidhamma (paramatthadesanaa). Profound insight is, I believe, insight into paramatthadhammas, not into sammutidhammas which are concepts. Profound insight is not, I believe, obtained simply by sitting under a tree (though this can be a very good practice, in my opinion, for strengthening concentration and tranquility, and for a pleasant abiding here and now). All ariyan disciples of Buddhadhamma since the Buddha's enlightenment have attained ariyan states only after hearing and penetrating the Dhamma well-explained, with or without seated meditation. Your point that abhidhamma is not synonymous with the abhidhamma pi.taka is well taken in my opinion, thanks. mike 23339 From: Gina Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 0:30pm Subject: Can someone explain Vispasana Insight Meditation here the info There are two main branches in Buddhist meditation: samatha (calmness, concentration) and vipassana (insight), which stresses mindfulness. This doesn't mean that the two are entirely separate, since you cannot be mindful unless you have at least some level of concentration. Mantra meditation, in which you repeat a few words over and over, is also widely practiced. Followers of this technique may chant "Buddh" as they inhale, and "dho" as they exhale. The words may vary, but the purpose of chanting is really to get the mind focused. Yet another widely taught technique is kasinas, where meditators concentrate on an object outside themselves, such as the flame of a candle, or a crystal ball. Sati, or mindfulness, is key to vipassana meditation. You train yourself to be aware of the body's action, the rise and fall of your chest as you inhale and exhale, the movement of your feet and legs as you walk, as well as your feelings, your thought, and finally, the state of mind you are in. Walking, sitting and lying meditation are but a few of vipassana techniques. When the mind is untrained, concentration can be shattered by the slightest stimuli—noise, smell, heat, hunger, pain, etc. The key is to become aware of what happens, but not dwell on it. Still, a novice can only ward off so much distraction, and that's one reason why vipassana retreats are usually held in peaceful and isolated settings. 23340 From: Date: Tue Jul 8, 2003 9:57pm Subject: what next Hi Jon, You asked what I would like to post as a study thread. I was thinking of the wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga. We obviously can't post the whole thing so interested people will have to follow along with their own copy and I will post a paragraph or two from time to time. I'm starting out very slowly so if anyone wants to pick up the pace and jump ahead with a posting of their own that's fine with me. I don't think there is a problem with jumping back and forth between earlier and later passages. I'm taking a little time off now, reflecting and clearing my head with a rather large dose of Harry Potter but will resume soon. Larry 23341 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 2:53am Subject: Interview with the Venerable Dhammanada Bhikkuni Hello All, Azita - Got your message. :-) For anyone interested in hearing a recorded interview by Australian Radio National with the Venerable Dhammanada Bhikkhuni "Ordination of Buddhist Women" - the audio can be heard, and the transcript can be read, at: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/ The Venerable Dhammanada Bhikkuni is a former university professor ordained as a Buddhist nun in Sri Lanka two years ago. She now heads a monastery and temple at Nakhon Pathom, near Bangkok. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23342 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 3:45am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hello KenH, Could you say a little more on this please KenH? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" < > Yes, by hearing, reflecting on, and discussing the Dhamma > with good friends, we learn to apply our accumulated > understanding to the present moment. > > The Pali Canon and its commentaries contain voluminous > information on formal meditation in relation to the > development of jhana. Jhana is a subject quite distinct > from vipassana. There is no mention of vipassana > meditation in the ancient literature. > > ----------------- As an example, what about Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 "Yuganaddha Sutta" ''In Tandem" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html Isn't 'Insight' a translation of vipassana? Nyanatiloka (p.254) states that Vipassana: is frequently found in the older sutta texts (e.g. A.II.32; S.XLV.159), also together with samatha. The 9 and 18 insight-knowledges (vipassana-nana and the maha-vipassana), however, occur in the Sutta Pitaka only in the Pts., Nanakatha, where they are enumerated and explained, though without any group name being attached to them. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 23343 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 3:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: gratitude, nature and meditation. Dear Nina, > As I said above, no rule to reflect on these four > objects, but reading about them can condition moments > of kusala reflection. It was reassuring to read recently, that you too, took a long time to understand the difference between dhammas and thinking. When I wrote, "Would this be a good time to reflect on one of the four objects of meditation," I thought I was on safe ground, but now, I see I was making the same old mistake. Reflecting on some part of the Dhamma by way of study, does not involve the idea of doing something in order to achieve a result. However, the type of reflection I had in mind, was not so innocuous. I was confusing study with trying to put study into practice -- as if it gave me control over reality. Thanks for putting me straight -- yet again :-) Kind regards, Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Mike, Howard, Ken and all, > Mike, I appreciate and thank you for your posts where you explained about 23344 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/KenH Dear Christine, You give me too much credit. I wasn't even aware the use of the word 'vipassana' was an issue. But thanks for the information, anyway :-) My comment, "There is no mention of vipassana meditation in the ancient literature," was aimed purely at the purported, *intentional practice* of vipassana -- as if there could be control over such things. Jon has written about the use of "meditation" in Pali translations eg., message 14276 (in the Useful Posts file). As a university Pali student who has just been awarded a 6 (Distinction), (congratulations, by the way), you might care to elaborate for us :-) Kind regards, Ken 23345 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:43am Subject: Self Ownership Hello All, I just thought I might share some of my current thinking, since I haven't posted in a while. Florida Scott-Maxwell wrote in her book `The Measure of My Days', "You need only claim the events of your life to make yourself yours. When you truly possess all you have been and done...you are fierce with reality." This observation reminded me of the moments prior to the Buddha's enlightenment. Prior to the Buddha's enlightenment he also claimed all he had been and all he had done, not just in one lifetime but in all of his multitude of lifetimes. Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than negating all aspects of the self on principle? Metta, James 23346 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 6:36am Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Dear Victor, Mike, Howard, and all How are you? Victor asked: "When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths?" Yes, I do mean that, Victor. And it is about the four noble truths. Let me break down your quotes item by item and show them to be abhidhammas in different wordings - in different narrative forms as I said in my original post. 1. the non-doing of any evil. When we analyse any evil, they are one or another of unhealthy path of actions (akusala kammapatha). Once we get a unhealthy action, we can infer unhealthy activation or intention (cetanaa). Now cetanaaa is a mental associate (cetasika), so it belongs to one of the four ultimate ralities. So it is an instance of abhidhamma. Moreover, once we get an unhealthy cetanaa, we can easily get an unhealthy consciousness (akusala cittam) that contains it or arises together with it. Now the unhealthy consciousness also belongs to the one of the four ultimate realities. So it is also another instance of abhidhamma. 2. the performance of what's skillful. Performance of what is skillful is another way of saying "doing a healthy action" which is one of the healthy path of actions (kusala kammapatha). Thus, we get a healthy cetanaa and a healthy mind, both of which are abhidhammas. 3. cleansing of one's mind Mind is one of the four ultimates, so it is an abhidhamma. 4. the four noble truths. The Noble Truth of Dukkha contains the five aggregates for obsession (pañcupaadaanakkhandhaa). These five aggregate contains the three ultimate realities in terms of matter, mind and mental associates. The Noble Truth Of Samudaya is attachment, which is to do with greed (lobha). As such, it is a mental associate (cetasika). The Noble Truth Of Nirodha is nibbaana, so it is an ultimate reality. The Noble Truth Of Magga is an eightfold mental associates (cetasikas). Therfore, the four noble truths are abhidhammas. Victor, please als read Mike's excellent reply to my original post. Hope my answers satisfy your questions. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: Hi Suan, What is the Buddha's teaching? It is: The non-doing of any evil, the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind: this is the teaching of the Awakened. It is the four noble truths: dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > 23347 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Dear Suan, Saadhu, saadhu, saadhu. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: abhidhammika To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Dear Victor, Mike, Howard, and all How are you? Victor asked: "When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that it is about the four noble truths?" Yes, I do mean that, Victor. And it is about the four noble truths. Let me break down your quotes item by item and show them to be abhidhammas in different wordings - in different narrative forms as I said in my original post. 1. the non-doing of any evil. When we analyse any evil, they are one or another of unhealthy path of actions (akusala kammapatha). Once we get a unhealthy action, we can infer unhealthy activation or intention (cetanaa). Now cetanaaa is a mental associate (cetasika), so it belongs to one of the four ultimate ralities. So it is an instance of abhidhamma. Moreover, once we get an unhealthy cetanaa, we can easily get an unhealthy consciousness (akusala cittam) that contains it or arises together with it. Now the unhealthy consciousness also belongs to the one of the four ultimate realities. So it is also another instance of abhidhamma. 2. the performance of what's skillful. Performance of what is skillful is another way of saying "doing a healthy action" which is one of the healthy path of actions (kusala kammapatha). Thus, we get a healthy cetanaa and a healthy mind, both of which are abhidhammas. 3. cleansing of one's mind Mind is one of the four ultimates, so it is an abhidhamma. 4. the four noble truths. The Noble Truth of Dukkha contains the five aggregates for obsession (pañcupaadaanakkhandhaa). These five aggregate contains the three ultimate realities in terms of matter, mind and mental associates. The Noble Truth Of Samudaya is attachment, which is to do with greed (lobha). As such, it is a mental associate (cetasika). The Noble Truth Of Nirodha is nibbaana, so it is an ultimate reality. The Noble Truth Of Magga is an eightfold mental associates (cetasikas). Therfore, the four noble truths are abhidhammas. 23348 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Ken (and Christine) - In a message dated 7/9/03 7:31:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > My comment, "There is no mention of vipassana meditation > in the ancient literature," was aimed purely at the > purported, *intentional practice* of vipassana -- as if > there could be control over such things. > > =========================== Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? Try it? ... Well, could you do it? Could you exercise that volition? Can you stand up and then sit down, Ken? If you could do these things, it required that you turn your attention to them. It is possible to develop (yes, intentionally develop) the habit of *paying attention* to whatever is happening at the moment. Such paying attention, and remembering to do so, is sati. It's easier to pay attention when one sits still, body upright and even, and with eyes closed, to limit the variety of inputs, but it can be done at any time. It simply requires regular, intentional *practice*, so that the ability is enhanced and the habit is fixed. Of course, if no attempt at such practice is made, why should such ability or habit develop? Things require causes and conditions for their arising. (Of course, there is no "one" who is practicing, except in a manner of speaking. But so what?) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23349 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike p.s. Since we were discussing gratitude recently, I'd like to add that your post conditioned a profound sense of gratitude toward the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, very calm and detached. To me, this seems like a good case of delight not based on sense pleasure (though lots of akusala popping up too, no doubt). That the Buddhavacana can still ring as clearly as a bell after twenty-five hundred years--in imperfect translation into an utterly foreign language, no less--also reminds me why the Buddha called teaching the ultimate miracle. Instructed, incited, aroused and gladdened, mike 23350 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Larry Sounds to me like a good choice. But I'd like to hear what others have to say. I think the first part of the wisdom section in particular (which is a general introduction followed by the aggregates in detail) would be of great value. Anyway, take your time to recover, and happy reading in the meantime (and remember, awareness can arise at any time; the seeing and visible object, thinking, pleasant feeling etc that constitute the reading of Harry Potter are the same fundamental phenomena that constitute other moments of reading). Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > You asked what I would like to post as a study thread. I was > thinking of > the wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga. We obviously can't post > the > whole thing so interested people will have to follow along with > their > own copy and I will post a paragraph or two from time to time. I'm > starting out very slowly so if anyone wants to pick up the pace and > jump > ahead with a posting of their own that's fine with me. I don't > think > there is a problem with jumping back and forth between earlier and > later > passages. I'm taking a little time off now, reflecting and clearing > my > head with a rather large dose of Harry Potter but will resume soon. > > Larry 23351 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] my time with A. Sujin 3. Nina I'm enjoying this series very much. Many things I haven't heard before. Also, I much admire your accumulations for making notes of what you hear and then setting it out for others to read -- a great benefit to many, many people. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Kio and all, > Kio asked: > In the last post, you said: "I became used to the different types > of > citta, consciousness." What was the few specific incidents in your > early days that you found the glimpse of dhamma? > Nina: > My time with A. Sujin 3. > At breakfast I listened to A. Sujin¹s radio program and heard time > and again 23352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 11:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Time with A. Sujin 4. Dear Kiyo, I am only taking out one remark from your letter. op 29-06-2003 20:42 schreef suzakico op suzaki@p...: > practicing the `process' (may I also say, sila- > samadhi-panna?) will lead to elimination of suffering. My time with A. Sujin. 4 A. Sujin taught me what is kusala and what is akusala by her example. The observing of precepts is not a matter of rules one has to follow. She explained that there is no self who can direct the arising of kusala, that it is sati which conditions refraining from akusala and performing kusala. Since I was in the diplomatic service I went to cocktail parties and took drinks. A. Sujin would never say, don¹t drink. She would explain that it is sati that makes one refrain from akusala. Gradually I had less inclinations to drinking, and this happened because of conditions. I did not know that killing snakes or insects was akusala. When I was in A. Sujin¹s house, we were having some sweets, and when flies were eating some crumbs on the floor, A. Sujin said, we let them enjoy these too. I had never considered before to give flies something they would enjoy, it was a new idea to me. I learnt more in detail what was kusala, what akusala. I began to refrain from killing insects and snakes. She also taught me that it is kusala sila to pay respect to monks, because the monks observe so many rules. She taught me to kneel down and pay respect in the proper way, touching the floor with forehead and hands three times. She taught me the importance of the Vinaya, and she explained that we laypeople should help the monks by our conduct to observe the Vinaya. We should not give money to them, but hand it to the layperson in charge. When we are in conversation with the monks we should not chat on matters not related to Dhamma. Together with her elderly father we visited temples and offered food. We often had lunch with her father in his favoured restaurant where they served finely sliced pork (mu han in Thai). We did not talk on Dhamma very much at such occasions, but I noticed A. Sujin¹s feeling of urgency, never being forgetful of the Dhamma, whatever she was doing. I was clinging very much to Dhamma talks, but throughout the years I learnt that we do not need to talk on Dhamma all the time, but that we should reflect on Dhamma and apply Dhamma in our life. A. Sujin is always such an inspiring example of the application of Dhamma. When we read the Visuddhimagga we see the three divisions of sila, concentration and panna. We may think of a specific order. However, A. Sujin explained that this is the order of teaching, that there is not a specific order according to which we should practise. When we carefully read about sila, we see that all degrees of sila are dealt with, from the lower degrees up to the highest degrees: the eradication of all defilements. Having kindness for flies and abstaining from killing is sila. Being respectful to monks is sila. Being patient in all situations is sila. Satipatthana is sila: we should remember the text about restraint of the six doors by mindfulness. It is satipatthana which is the condition for abstaining from akusala. As to concentration or calm, this has many degrees. There is calm with each kusala citta. Calm is not a feeling of calm, it means the absence of akusala. When we cling to silence and to being calm, there is lobha, not calm. Panna has to be very keen to know exactly which moment is akusala and which moment of kusala, otherwise we shall not know the characteristic of calm. When there is awareness of nama or rupa there is also true calm at that moment. As panna grows, calm grows as well. The eradication of defilements is the highest degree of calm. A. Sujin often stressed: when there is right awareness of a nama or rupa there is at that moment higher sila, higher calm and higher panna. Nina. (to be continued) 23353 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 3:20pm Subject: Re: Putting into practice: To Howard, Victor, and Mike Hi Suan, Thank you for your reply. So you meant that the Buddha's teaching is about non-doing of any evil,the performance of what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind. You meant that it is about the four noble truths. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Victor, Mike, Howard, and all > > How are you? > > Victor asked: > > "When you said that everything the Buddha taught revolves around > abhidhamma in the sense of ultimate realities, which are matter, > mind, mental associates, and nibbana, do you mean that the Buddha's > teaching is about the non-doing of any evil,the performance of > what's skillful, the cleansing of one's own mind? Do you mean that > it is about the four noble truths?" > > Yes, I do mean that, Victor. And it is about the four noble truths. [snip] > Hope my answers satisfy your questions. > > With regards, > > Suan Lu Zaw 23354 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi Howard, Sorry to butt in... > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:47 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH > > > Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? Try > it? ... Well, > could you do it? Could you exercise that volition? Can you stand > up and then > sit down, Ken? My question is that, is that picturing kusala or akusala, with sati or without? Paying attention is not sati. I can pay attention when I cross the road. When I pay attention to breathing, it can be with or without sati, be with wisdom or without. Which one is it? How does it come about? I already thought of the purple elephant by reading your statement, without willing to think of the elephant at the first place. kom 23355 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Self Ownership James: "Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than negating all aspects of the self on principle?" Hi James, I agree. There are basically two kinds of anatta. A dhamma that is empty of permanence is anatta and the emptiness of an apparent whole is anatta. Taking ownership of all of life's events, or simply more than one life event , is an apparent whole and so can be experienced as the emptiness of a composite. I've been thinking about this lately in regard to nama and rupa (mind and body). I find that I don't really take ownership of my body. In order to experience the anatta of a whole one must first find the whole. Larry 23356 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: Inquiry to Nina... for Victor Hi Azita, Thank you for your reply. Couple points: 1. Being on holidays, lying back on the beach in beautiful weather, one can feel quite peaceful. This is a refined pleasant feeling. 2. This pleasant feeling is not the same as lobha/greed. A pleasant feeling is neither wholesome nor unwholesome. Lobha/greed, subtle or not, on the other hand, is unwholesome. 3. This pleasant feeling, however, is impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory, and it is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." 4. If one does not have the desire/motivation to realize the cessation of the dukkha, one would never get there. With desire/motivation to reach the cessation of the dukkha, one takes the noble eightfold path, which leads to the cessation of dukkha. Once the goal is achieved, liberation attained, there is nothing left to be done. 5. When you say that cessation is not attained by wishing, it is attained by Knowledge, do you mean that it is the noble eightfold path that leads to the cessation of dukkha, and this noble eightfold path is to be developed? Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: [snip] > dear Victor, > perhaps not while being greedy, but I believe with very subtle > lobha, one can feel very peaceful e.g. imagine being on holidays, > lying back on the beach, beautiful weather, without a care in the > world at the moment, for me, that's very peaceful but I wouldn't say > it was kusala. > [snip] > Regarding the discourse, I'm wondering if the desire that's > spoken about is Chanda, which is desire-to-do, rather than Lobha. > The discourse is very uplifting, but if I didn't have some knowledge > of Abhidhamma, I would think that 'I' could do something to attain > Enlightenment. > I want to quote something that I just read from Nina: > 'so long as we have many defilements which arise time and again > and we have desire for the realization of the 4 Noble Truths, we are > very far from the goal'. > I know that I don't know just h0w deep 'my' defilements are, but > I'm fairly certain that there is a lot more akusala in a day than > kusala. > Cessation is not attained by wishing, it is attained by > Knowledge, and I quote here from Kom: > 'the 1st stage of insight is the distinction bet. nama and rupa. > Without this stage of insight, the person still holds dear all the > Khandhas as being truly theirs.' > > I present my question about Nibbana a little differently. > In Nina's book 'Conditions' p36, it says 'anything can be object of > clinging, except Nibbana'. Why is this? > > Thanks for dragging me out of the lurkers' corner, Victor. > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 23357 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 7:14:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > My question is that, is that picturing kusala or akusala, with sati or > without? Paying attention is not sati. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The word 'sati' is usually given as "mindfulness" in English. Now, perhaps that is not paying attention, but exactly what is it, then? It certainly seems that one is noticeably mindful when and only when one is paying attention - not mentally "getting lost". -------------------------------------------------- I can pay attention when I cross> > the road. When I pay attention to breathing, it can be with or without > sati, be with wisdom or without. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps sati is *not* paying attention, though I tend to think it is. But it certainly isn't wisdom. Mindfulness, together with other factors may *lead* to wisdom, but it is not, itself, wisdom. ----------------------------------------------- Which one is it? How does it come about? > I already thought of the purple > elephant by reading your statement, without > willing to think of the elephant at the first place. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't follow you here, Kom. What do you mean by "Which one is it?" Which what is what?? How does sati come about? By careful practice. With regard to the purple elephant, and the standing up and sitting down, my point was merely that the exercise of volition is possible. Not only is it possible, it is *common*. In particular, paying attention to exactly what is happening at any time is something that one can exert the effort to do. The more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a *habit* of mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of cultivation. It requires ongoing vigilance. But it can be done. ------------------------------------------------ > > kom > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23358 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 6:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 4:59 PM > > > > My question is that, is that picturing kusala or akusala, with sati or > > without? Paying attention is not sati. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The word 'sati' is usually given as "mindfulness" in English. Now, > perhaps that is not paying attention, but exactly what is it, > then? Sati is non-forgetfulness of the object that brings the kusala states. For example, when we see other people being nice to another, when we anumoddhana that deed (even without active willing to do that), sati is not forgetful of that deed, and it arises with all the other associated kusala states. In the four foundation of mindfulness, sati is non-forgetful of its object, being nama and rupa (or the 5 kandhas), and it always co-arises with wisdom. > It certainly > seems that one is noticeably mindful when and only when one is paying > attention - not mentally "getting lost". I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no sati. When I cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, I am aware of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental development. I have to pay attention when I study math / other subjects too, but yet, there is no sati there either. The commentaries indicate that (in the section of the deportment of the bodies), that the meditator is aware of the body, but not in the same way that the jackals (and other animals?) are aware of its body. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps sati is *not* paying attention, though I tend to > think it is. I definitely don't think it is. When I automatically/reflexively anumoddhana a good deed, I might think I am not paying attention (since it is so fast and it already happened), but at that moment, there is sati. > > > Which one is it? How does it come about? > I already thought of > the purple > > elephant by reading your statement, without > > willing to think of the elephant at the first place. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't follow you here, Kom. What do you mean by "Which > one is it?" > Which what is what?? I was saying that when we pay attention to something, it can be with sati or without sati, and it can be with wisdom and without wisdom, and it can be with defilements or not. When I am paying attention to a beautiful woman (from being beautiful aspect), I know there is no sati anywhere: it is with defilements. > How does sati come about? By careful practice. I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more mindful than one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will be more sati at all the different levels. > With regard to the purple elephant, and the standing up > and sitting > down, my point was merely that the exercise of volition is > possible. Not only is > it possible, it is *common*. In particular, paying attention to > exactly what > is happening at any time is something that one can exert the > effort to do. The > more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a *habit* of > mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of cultivation. It > requires ongoing > vigilance. But it can be done. > ------------------------------------------------ > I think my volition in thinking about elephant comes about because I saw what you wrote. If I don't hear or don't see, I normally don't think about purple elephants. Volition is a conditioned (sankhata, and sankhara) dhamma, just like sati and wisdom is. It comes about because of complex factors, not just will, or paying attention, or the kamma, or the accumulations alone. kom 23359 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 9:38:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no sati. When I > cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, I am aware > of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana > states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental > development. ======================== I'm sorry, Kom, but I don't buy that at all. Mindfulness should not exclude any states that arise. If there is desire, there should be mindfulness of it. Likewise for aversion, likewise for sloth and torpor, likewise for all the hindrances. Negative as well as positive should be seen mindfully, not only the lovely, the beautiful, the wholesome, the sobhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23360 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi again, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 9:38:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > > How does sati come about? By careful practice. > > I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly > accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more mindful than > one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a > result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma > changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will be more sati > at all the different levels. ========================= And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). It seems that the only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That certainly isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23361 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 8:29pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:06 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no > sati. When I > > cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, > I am aware > > of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana > > states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental > > development. > ======================== > I'm sorry, Kom, but I don't buy that at all. Mindfulness > should not > exclude any states that arise. If there is desire, there should > be mindfulness > of it. Likewise for aversion, likewise for sloth and torpor, > likewise for all > the hindrances. Negative as well as positive should be seen > mindfully, not only > the lovely, the beautiful, the wholesome, the sobhana. > I don't think we are that far apart. Mindfulness only arises altogether with sobhana states, but its object can be anything, including akusala states. In the case of 4 foundations of mindfulness, its object is paramatha (vipassana & tranquil development) or concepts (tranquil development). What I am saying is that, Howard, that sometimes, what we might take as mindfulness may be subtle, or even gross (ignorance would hide this) attachments toward wanting to know the characteristic of the object, wanting to have sati, wanting to progress in the path. Can we tell the difference between mindfulness and attachments? As long as one still has strong attachment toward having sati, reaching nibbana is impossible. The more attachments we have (without knowing the difference), the more likely we are to veer off into the wrong path (micha-magga) and to reach the wrong release (micha-vimutti). The Buddha exposed both micha-magga and micha-vimutti only because they exist, and I think they exist in all shades of subtleties, as long as we still have wrong grasps and wrong understandings of how realities work (paramatha sacca), and how panna becomes developed. kom 23362 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/9/03 11:30:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > >Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:06 PM > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > > >>I can be perfectly aware of what I am doing, but yet have no > >sati. When I > >>cross the road, when I pay attention the cars coming and going, > >I am aware > >>of those cars, but yet there is no sati. Sati only arises with sobhana > >>states: its objects must be related to those of dana, sila, and mental > >>development. > >======================== > > I'm sorry, Kom, but I don't buy that at all. Mindfulness > >should not > >exclude any states that arise. If there is desire, there should > >be mindfulness > >of it. Likewise for aversion, likewise for sloth and torpor, > >likewise for all > >the hindrances. Negative as well as positive should be seen > >mindfully, not only > >the lovely, the beautiful, the wholesome, the sobhana. > > > > I don't think we are that far apart. Mindfulness only arises altogether > with sobhana states, but its object can be anything, including akusala > states. In the case of 4 foundations of mindfulness, its object is > paramatha (vipassana &tranquil development) or concepts (tranquil > development). What I am saying is that, Howard, that sometimes, what we > might take as mindfulness may be subtle, or even gross (ignorance would hide > this) attachments toward wanting to know the characteristic of the object, > wanting to have sati, wanting to progress in the path. Can we tell the > difference between mindfulness and attachments? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I had misunderstood you. Yes, we're not too far apart on this issue. --------------------------------------------------- > > As long as one still has strong attachment toward having sati, reaching > nibbana is impossible. The more attachments we have (without knowing the > difference), the more likely we are to veer off into the wrong path > (micha-magga) and to reach the wrong release (micha-vimutti). The Buddha > exposed both micha-magga and micha-vimutti only because they exist, and I > think they exist in all shades of subtleties, as long as we still have wrong > grasps and wrong understandings of how realities work (paramatha sacca), and > how panna becomes developed. > > kom > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23363 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Dear Larry and Jon, Yes a good idea. Not so easy to get the Pali text, we may need it. Nina op 09-07-2003 18:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I think the first part of the wisdom section in particular (which is > a general introduction followed by the aggregates in detail) would be > of great value. 23364 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 9:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:11 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > > How does sati come about? By careful practice. > > > > I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly > > accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more > mindful than > > one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a > > result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma > > changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will > be more sati > > at all the different levels. > > ========================= > And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? > Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). > It seems that the > only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That > certainly > isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. Not at all, Howard. Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. kom 23365 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello from a new (old!) member Dear Htoo Naing, Thanks for your message dated 7/03/2003. My computer was down for five days, so I'm delayed in getting back to you. You inquired about what Pali texts I have read in translation. Not many, really. I have read The Dhammapada and Suttas of varying lengths, most recently The Udana, the third book of the Khuddaka Nikaya. Right now I am exceedingly busy and haven't much time for reading. When I have more time, I hope to get some suggestions for systematic reading. Be well and happy. Clyde Appleton 23366 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hello Howard (11--not 13--years my junior!), Thanks for your messages. My computer was down for five days, so I was delayed in replying. Yes, my practice is very important to me. My reading of the Suttas, etc. has been very limited. When I have more time--currently I am exceedingly busy--I hope that my reading of Pali texts will be more systematic. Suggestions surely are welcome. May you be well and happy. Clyde Appleton 23367 From: Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Dear Jon, Thanks for your welcoming message. My computer was down for 5 days, so my reply was delayed. My reading of the Suttas, etc. has been limited. Right now I'm exceedingly busy. When I have more time, I hope that my reading will be more systematic. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Be well and happy. Clyde Appleton 23368 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 9, 2003 10:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi Howard, You wrote: -------------- > Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? Try it? ... Well, could you do it? Could you exercise that volition? > --------------- At the end of the second sentence, I paused a moment, then thought, "Yes, done that," and read on to the end of the paragraph. Reading it a second time, I didn't go through with the imagining exercise at all; I was following other trains of thought. Some time later, I put more effort into it and realised that, on the very first reading, I hadn't imagined a purple elephant at all! There had been the vague notion of a blurry object and the thought "Yes, done that," accompanied by the desire to keep reading. Only now, was I actually getting a recognisable image. (Visualising an elephant isn't so hard but getting the colour right is another matter.) :-) ----------------- > Can you stand up and then sit down, Ken? > ----------------- This experiment also proved inconclusive. At the time, I didn't stand up and sit down. I could have; I thought about it briefly, but kept reading. Why didn't I? Who knows -- on another occasion I might have. The idea that I have control over these things is just that; an idea. (Since then, there have been forays to the kitchen for coffee and chocolate biscuits; so I know I can stand up and sit down when I want to.) :-) --------------- > If you could do these things, it required that you turn your attention to them. It is possible to develop (yes, intentionally develop) the habit of *paying attention* to whatever is happening at the moment. > ---------------- How do you know there is this ability? You would hate to think of living beings as mere puppets of fate and, I agree, that is a wrong view, but the signs could be interpreted either way. The mistake is made as soon as we accept 'living beings' as anything more than a convenient figure of speech. Having made that mistake, there are only two options; living beings have free-will or; living beings have no free-will. Actually, [as we know], there are two other logical possibilities; living beings could have neither free-will nor not free-will or; they could have both free-will and not free-will. All four possibilities hinge on the wrong view that a 'living being' is something more than momentary, impersonal, nama and rupa. ------------- > Such paying attention, and remembering to do so, is sati. > ------------- I take your point that 'paying attention' is a conventional explanation for certain paramattha dhammas but, in this case, you have chosen the wrong one. Sati is present only in kusala consciousness. I don't see how imagining an elephant or standing-and-sitting are necessarily kusala activities :-) --------------- > It's easier to pay attention when one sits still, body upright and even, and with eyes closed, to limit the variety of inputs, but it can be done at any time. > --------------- Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily argumentative, but I don't know that this is so. I have had formal meditation sessions (as have friends I have spoken to), where there is incessant restlessness, distraction and all sorts of unwholesome thoughts. But that is besides the point. Whether we are sitting quietly or running to catch a bus, right mindfulness can arise -- provided the necessary wisdom has been developed. --------------- > It simply requires regular, intentional *practice*, so that the ability is enhanced and the habit is fixed. > ---------------- Again, I'm probably being argumentative, but how do you explain those occasions when your meditation has been unproductive? From my experience, it is usual to blame the poor old meditator -- he hasn't followed the instructions, he hasn't tried hard enough, he lacks faith . . . and so on. These are excuses for a flawed theory. The fact is, trying to force sati or any wholesomeness to arise can produce, at best, pleasant feelings born of attachment or, at worst, bitter disappointment and self recrimination. --------------- > Of course, if no attempt at such practice is made, why should such ability or habit develop? Things require causes and conditions for their arising. > --------------- I like to think that my surfing has steadily improved over the years and that this has been due to regular practice with concentration and mindfulness. But what reality is surfing? What reality is surfboard, surfer, cut-back, cover-up, re-entry or wipe-out? These are mere concepts and so is the notion of intentional training. ---------------- > (Of course, there is no "one" who is practicing, except in a manner of speaking. But so what?) > ----------------- The fact of no-self makes a mockery of everything we say, do and aspire to, in conventional, worldly life. Whether we think we are surfers or meditators, we are quite mad. :-) Kind regards, Ken 23369 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: Self Ownership --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > James: "Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all > of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than > negating all aspects of the self on principle?" > > Hi James, > > I agree. There are basically two kinds of anatta. A dhamma that is empty > of permanence is anatta and the emptiness of an apparent whole is > anatta. Taking ownership of all of life's events, or simply more than > one life event , is an apparent whole and so can be experienced as the > emptiness of a composite. I've been thinking about this lately in regard > to nama and rupa (mind and body). I find that I don't really take > ownership of my body. In order to experience the anatta of a whole one > must first find the whole. > > Larry Hi Larry, I am glad that you understand and agree. I agree with you also; I especially agree with your observation of the body. It is difficult to take ownership for the body, the body that in youth grants us pleasures we know we didn't earn and in old age steals away what we think we deserve. It is suffering to be born only to grow old and die. I am also working on accepting the aging of my body, nearing my eventual death with tell-tale signs, and to not feel cheated…to take ownership for it all. I think I know what must be done but that doesn't mean I have done it yet ;-). Metta, James 23370 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 8:11 PM > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > > > > > How does sati come about? By careful practice. > > > > > > I think it comes about because of the objects that appear, and mostly > > > accumulations. One who has better accumulations will be more > > mindful than > > > one who doesn't. This is why listening to the true dhamma (which is a > > > result of kamma) is so important to one's accumulation. The true dhamma > > > changes one's accumulations so that in the future, there will > > be more sati > > > at all the different levels. > > > > ========================= > > And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? > > Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). > > It seems that the > > only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That > > certainly > > isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. > > Not at all, Howard. Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to > arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of > listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true > dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration > conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All > coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at > the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, > coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as > nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. > > kom Hi Kom, I want to relate a little story. Today my father and I had a discussion about thermodynamics. He was commenting on the weather here in Phoenix, Arizona, which will soon be 116-117 degrees f., and said, "I am surprised it isn't even hotter around here with all of the air conditioners taking the heat out of the houses and buildings and putting it outside." I disagreed with what he had to say and explained to him that heat isn't a substance but a reaction and that air conditioners don't remove the heat from spaces, leaving cold, that they refrigerate the air that is continually present…when the air molecules are less excited by the energy of photons (found in light), they move slower and become cooler. At first he disagreed with me, because it wasn't what he had been taught, but eventually he agreed…it is difficult to argue science and my father isn`t a stupid man, just misinformed. I relate this story because your observations about panna (wisdom) remind me of my father's beliefs about heat and cold. With all due respect, you seem to believe that panna is like a substance, it is either present or it isn't, and that only panna can come from panna and that only ignorance comes from ignorance. Panna and ignorance are two conditions of the same thing: mind; just as heat and cold are two conditions of the same thing: matter. When you see panna as a substance that either a person has or doesn't have, that type of thinking becomes elitist…just like the thinking that only the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and that both happen because of 'accumulations'. I find this to be a type of intellectual/wisdom bigotry. The potential for Buddhahood is in us all, it is up to each of us to create the right conditions, not resign our fate to 'accumulations'. Metta, James 23371 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi, Kom - In a message dated 7/10/03 12:35:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kom@a... writes: > > And how do auspicious accumulations come about, Kom? By magic? > >Randomly? No. By right effort, by proper actions (kusala kamma). > >It seems that the > >only action some folks recommend is to listen to the Dhamma. That > >certainly > >isn't all that the *Buddha* said to do. > > Not at all, Howard. Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to > arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of > listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true > dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration > conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All > coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at > the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, > coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as > nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. > > ============================= Okay, I didn't say quite enough. The auspicious accumulations are said to come about by listening to the Dhamma and "wisely" considering it. (This, then, the listening and the thinking, lead to wisdom, and wisdom leads to more and more wisdom). Now what did I say? I said "to listen to the Dhamma". Of course, I presumed that it was meant that one would not listen to it without trying to wisely consider it and understand it. So, in any case, it doesn't strike me that I was so off-base in saying that this position is that one should listen to the Dhamma. I still maintain that the Buddha said to do a lot more than that. (An understatement.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23372 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Dear Nina, I can easily supply the Pali text from the CSCD and make it accessible (temporarily) by uploading the section you've decided on studying to the files folder or send offlist. I can even include the relevant section of the Maha Tika too if desired. Best wishes, Jim > Dear Larry and Jon, > Yes a good idea. Not so easy to get the Pali text, we may need it. > Nina 23373 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Kom, Please for give my (constant?) confusion. But, doesn't this imply a strictly deterministic system? In a book I'm currently reading ("The Wings of Awakening") it indicates that the Buddha rejected determinism (that everything is cause/effect) and he also rejected "chaos" (that everything happens randomly). It implied that the Buddha's "This/That" philosophy sort of merged the 2. That we are both influenced by conditions (cause/effect) but we also have the power over it, and can therefore break the cycle. The way I read your statement below, it sounds like you are thinking again of a deterministic system. Am I misunderstanding you? Am I misunderstanding my book? Or is there a divergence here? As always, I appreciate your time and patience! :-) Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > Dhamma arises because there are conditions for it to > arise. Association with the wise person allows the possibilities of > listening to the true dhamma. Listening to (and understanding) the true > dhamma conditions wise consideration (thinking). Wise consideration > conditions the sati and wisdom at the pati-pati (practice) level. All > coming from listening to the true dhamma, and wise consideration. Panna at > the higher level, at the more refined level, comes from panna at the lower, > coarser level. Wisdom doesn't come from ignorance, and is not random, as > nothing, as the Buddha has taught, comes about randomly or without cause. > > kom 23374 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from a new (old!) member Hi, Clyde - In a message dated 7/10/03 12:45:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, clydera@a... writes: > Hello Howard (11--not 13--years my junior!), > Thanks for your messages. My computer was down for five days, so I was > delayed in replying. Yes, my practice is very important to me. My reading > of > the Suttas, etc. has been very limited. When I have more time--currently I > am exceedingly busy--I hope that my reading of Pali texts will be more > systematic. Suggestions surely are welcome. May you be well and happy. > Clyde > Appleton > > ========================= Thanks for writing, Clyde. I look forward to many interesting conversations with you. As for suggestions, please feel welcome to contact me on list or off about whatever you wish. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23375 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/10/03 1:18:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > You wrote: > -------------- > > Ken, can't you picture a purple elephant right now? > Try it? ... Well, could you do it? Could you exercise > that volition? > > --------------- > > At the end of the second sentence, I paused a moment, > then thought, "Yes, done that," and read on to the end of > the paragraph. > > Reading it a second time, I didn't go through with the > imagining exercise at all; I was following other trains > of thought. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep. Rings true. None of us is very single-minded. ------------------------------------------------ > > Some time later, I put more effort into it and realised > that, on the very first reading, I hadn't imagined a > purple elephant at all! There had been the vague notion > of a blurry object and the thought "Yes, done that," > accompanied by the desire to keep reading. Only now, was > I actually getting a recognisable image. (Visualising an > elephant isn't so hard but getting the colour right is > another matter.) :-) ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I'm very poor at visualizing. (I won't be a Tibetan Buddhist in this lifetime! ;-). I do much better better with sounds. But with practice, I could improve my visualizing skills. -------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > > Can you stand up and then sit down, Ken? > > ----------------- > > This experiment also proved inconclusive. At the time, I > didn't stand up and sit down. I could have; I thought > about it briefly, but kept reading. Why didn't I? Who > knows -- on another occasion I might have. > ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Probably for the same reasons that I wouldn't have, which would amount to disinclination due to laziness, disinterest, thinking "What? I'm supposed to follow his orders?!" ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------------ The idea that> > I have control over these things is just that; an idea. > (Since then, there have been forays to the kitchen for > coffee and chocolate biscuits; so I know I can stand up > and sit down when I want to.) :-) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no control in the sense of volition ruling. Volition is one of many conditions that play a role. It by itself is never enough. But it is needed, and, with supporting conditions in place, it is arousable. Also, one's volition may be weak, or even lacking due to disineterst or other factors. There is no doubt that, as with all other conditions, volition arises only when the conditions for its arising are in place. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > > If you could do these things, it required that > you turn your attention to them. It is possible to > develop (yes, intentionally develop) the habit of *paying > attention* to whatever is happening at the moment. > > ---------------- > > How do you know there is this ability? You would hate to > think of living beings as mere puppets of fate and, I > agree, that is a wrong view, but the signs could be > interpreted either way. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This has been my experience. Were I better practiced, it would be my experience even more so. ------------------------------------------------------ > > The mistake is made as soon as we accept 'living beings' > as anything more than a convenient figure of speech. > Having made that mistake, there are only two options; > living beings have free-will or; living beings have no > free-will. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with you. this whole free will issue is a spuriouis one as I see it. --------------------------------------------------- > > Actually, [as we know], there are two other logical > possibilities; living beings could have neither free-will > nor not free-will or; they could have both free-will and > not free-will. All four possibilities hinge on the wrong > view that a 'living being' is something more than > momentary, impersonal, nama and rupa. > > ------------- > > Such paying attention, and remembering to do so, is > sati. > > ------------- > > I take your point that 'paying attention' is a > conventional explanation for certain paramattha dhammas > but, in this case, you have chosen the wrong one. Sati > is present only in kusala consciousness. I don't see how > imagining an elephant or standing-and-sitting are > necessarily kusala activities :-) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Kom made the same point. I think the distinction should be between sati and sammasati. For mindfulness (or attention) to have a salutary effect, it must not be self-centered, it must not involve craving/aversion/attachment. It must be accompanied by equanimity. That, BTW, is why samatha is of value. S.N.Goenka, for example, makes exactly the point that vipassana bhavana must involve mindful, *nonreactive* observation. ------------------------------------------------ > > --------------- > > It's easier to pay attention when one sits still, body > upright and even, and with eyes closed, to limit the > variety of inputs, but it can be done at any time. > > --------------- > > > Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily argumentative, but I > don't know that this is so. I have had formal meditation > sessions (as have friends I have spoken to), where there > is incessant restlessness, distraction and all sorts of > unwholesome thoughts. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Things change, Kom. In any case, even during such "bad" sittings, cultivation can occur. To be mindful of restlessness, for example, restlessness must arise! ----------------------------------------------------- > > But that is besides the point. Whether we are sitting > quietly or running to catch a bus, right mindfulness can > arise -- provided the necessary wisdom has been > developed. > > --------------- > > It simply requires regular, intentional *practice*, so > that the ability is enhanced and the habit is fixed. > > ---------------- > > Again, I'm probably being argumentative, but how do you > explain those occasions when your meditation has been > unproductive? From my experience, it is usual to blame > the poor old meditator -- he hasn't followed the > instructions, he hasn't tried hard enough, he lacks faith > . . . and so on. These are excuses for a flawed theory. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, we are not always able to properly make that judgement. Secondly, things do not always go as we wish, a point you certainly understand. Other conditions are not always favorable. But, things change. sometimes useful, sometimes not. Not every violin practice session is profitable. But after years of steady practice, one becomes a better violinist. -------------------------------------------------- > > The fact is, trying to force sati or any wholesomeness to > arise can produce, at best, pleasant feelings born of attachment > or, at worst, bitter disappointment and self recrimination. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Force is counter-productive.there must be trying that is is non-trying. Just calm oneself, and pay attention - again, and again, and again. -------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- > >Of course, if no attempt at such practice is made, why > should such ability or habit develop? Things require > causes and conditions for their arising. > > --------------- > > I like to think that my surfing has steadily improved > over the years and that this has been due to regular > practice with concentration and mindfulness. But what > reality is surfing? What reality is surfboard, surfer, > cut-back, cover-up, re-entry or wipe-out? These are mere > concepts and so is the notion of intentional training. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: As your "surfing" has improved, hasn't there, in fact, been changes in skills, in reaction time, etc, all reducing to changes in paramattha dhammas? ---------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > >(Of course, there is no "one" who is practicing, except > in a manner of speaking. But so what?) > > ----------------- > > The fact of no-self makes a mockery of everything we say, > do and aspire to, in conventional, worldly life. Whether > we think we are surfers or meditators, we are quite mad. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23376 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Dear Dave, I appreciated your response. > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 7:12 AM > > > Kom, > > Please for give my (constant?) confusion. But, > doesn't this imply a > strictly deterministic system? In a book I'm > currently reading ("The > Wings of Awakening") it indicates that the Buddha > rejected > determinism (that everything is cause/effect) and he also > rejected "chaos" (that everything happens > randomly). It implied that > the Buddha's "This/That" philosophy sort of > merged the I think perhaps what the book takes from is the question: is everything happening now a result of kamma (cause)? The Buddha clearly said no. However, there are many different kinds of causes, kamma being just one (but one of the most prominent) of them. If you remember one of the most famous utterance the Buddha made, that (forgive the inelegant translation): all sankhara, conditioned by its conditioning factors, normally disintegrates. Because of that, you should fulfill the factor of non-carelessness. All sankhara, or all the kandhas, sense-bases, and elements, each comes about because of its own conditions. Without the proper conditions, it doesn't arise. What is going on right now isn't just caused by what happened in the past. The mentality, and its co-arising (present) factors, conditions one another to arise. On the other hand, the past plays very prominent factors of the present (just think about how hard it is to break some habits). I highly recommends this book written by Nina (Conditions): http://www.zolag.co.uk/condf.pdf > 2. That we > are both influenced by conditions (cause/effect) > but we also have the > power over it, and can therefore break the cycle. Nobody can control the dhamma, as it must arise when there are conditions for it to arise. We also can't control its falling away, or its disintegration. Nobody can change the characteristic of attachment: when there is attachment, it is not a characteristic of anger, or kindness. Then it falls away, and then something else comes in place of it, which can be wholesome, or more unwholesome. > The way I read your statement below, it sounds > like you are thinking > again of a deterministic system. Am I > misunderstanding you? Am I > misunderstanding my book? Or is there a divergence here? > We are changing every moment, Dave, but it is by the conditions, and not us who made a change. Our accumulations are being changed constantly by past and present conditions. We cannot possibly learn more about the Buddha's teachings if Buddhists materials are inaccessible to us. We can not learn about visible object, unless visible object appears. A dhamma (be it attachment or wisdom) cannot come about unless it has all the causative and supporting conditions. Kamma cannot give its result unless there are other conditions that support it. If the weather is good, there is mostly no opportunity for bad kamma to give results (in term of being too hot, or too cold). This is why kamma cannot be all dominating conditioning factor. Things cannot be deterministic (to most people) because there are just too many variables (and the more important variables are not firmed/established yet). Let me give an example that appears to be pretty deterministic to me. The Ariyans, people who have reached any enlightenment level, cannot be possibly reborn in unhappy planes of existence. Wouldn't you say that is pretty deterministic? It's determined by past actions / accumulations (and the present states). kom 23377 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi James! Long time no talk :-). > -----Original Message----- > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:23 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > I relate this story because your observations > about panna (wisdom) > remind me of my father's beliefs about heat and > cold. With all due > respect, you seem to believe that panna is like a > substance, it is > either present or it isn't, and that only panna > can come from panna > and that only ignorance comes from ignorance. > Panna and ignorance > are two conditions of the same thing: mind; just > as heat and cold are > two conditions of the same thing: matter. When > you see panna as a > substance that either a person has or doesn't > have, that type of > thinking becomes elitist…just like the thinking > that only the rich > get richer and the poor get poorer and that both > happen because > of 'accumulations'. Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental factors. It comes about by its own conditions, and then it immediately falls away: it doesn't last. We gain more wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright light showing us the path and the truth. We become more wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, as it doesn't come from ignorance. Do you know that for our Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last life? Associating with the wise is the most important factor of developing panna. Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? kom 23378 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Kom, To keep jumping in! ... Your description below brings to mind a lecture I heard just this AM from Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. He talked about there being 2 aspects; Practice and Wisdom. If we try to practice w/o wisdom, then we are like the man driving from DC to NYC but with no directions, only taking streets at random (his simile). If we work on wisdom w/o practice then we are like the person who only reads the menu at a restaurant (again his simile). Peace, Dave --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > > Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental > factors. It comes about by its own conditions, and then it > immediately falls away: it doesn't last. We gain more > wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. > For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright > light showing us the path and the truth. We become more > wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, > as it doesn't come from ignorance. Do you know that for our > Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him > (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would > become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes > tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have > to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before > him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last > life? Associating with the wise is the most important > factor of developing panna. > > Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends > who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come > you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? > > kom 23379 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self Ownership Hi James, I was just thinking of you when you sent this post. How is life in Egypt, any temples or Buddhists there? Best wishes, Nina. op 10-07-2003 01:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > James: "Perhaps the key to realizing anatta is to take ownership for all > of your life's events, in this life and prior lives, rather than > negating all aspects of the self on principle?" 23380 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue on practice Dear Ken, Howard and Kom, I enjoyed your conversations on the practice very much. I shall add a few points. First to Ken: op 09-07-2003 12:47 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > It was reassuring to read recently, that you too, took a > long time to understand the difference between dhammas > and thinking. .... > Reflecting on some part of the Dhamma by way of study, > does not involve the idea of doing something in order to > achieve a result. However, the type of reflection I had > in mind, was not so innocuous. I was confusing study with > trying to put study into practice -- as if it gave me control > over reality. .. Nina:It is good to reflect, and different moments follow upon one another so closely. As A. Sujin always says, panna has to be so keen to know different moments. As Mike also said, he felt gratefulness to the Triple Gem but also realizes akusala coming in, clinging to calm. There may be some moments of mindfulness or reflection, and then it is normal that clinging follows. How could it be otherwise. I have the same experience. Listening, study, reading here on Email condition different moments of citta, kusala or akusala. Lots of clinging and also ignorance. Yesterday we were with my father. It is so difficult being with Pa, his mind is so disturbed and disorientated. He goes on and on with strange stories, and at times sitting there bores me. This is aversion and it will not help anybody. Fortunately he still appreciates the music we play, music therapy helps. Well, I have different moments. I remember your sympathetic words inspired by compassion, about my father and your parents. These when remembered inspire me. I also thought of the Buddha when sitting there, but I did this not on purpose to have kusala, it happened because of conditions, and sometimes I remember Jon's words that mindfulness of the present reality is the greatest respect to the Buddha. But mindfulness of the right object, of what presents itself, and right understanding of exactly that characteristic, that I still find very difficult. Howard and Kom: delighted with your dialogue. Helpful for all of us. As Howard says, sati is not wisdom. They are different cetasikas. As Kom points out, there is sati of different levels, with all kinds of kusala. When we speak of sati of satipatthana, or, this is the same, sati in vipassana, or sati as Path factor, then it is accompanied by right understanding. Sati is non-forgetful of the nama or rupa that presents itself now, be it pleasant, unpleasant, kusala or akusala, or neither kusala nor akusala, and panna knows the characteristic of that dhamma as nama or as rupa. Yes Howard, listening is essential, so that we have first intellectual understanding of the object of sati and panna. We should not underestimate listening and reflection on the Dhamma. So that we know: the development of satipatthana is not knowing what one is doing, or paying attention to what is going on. It is far more precise. Kom quoted the Co., jackals also know what they are doing. What Kom said here is very helpful: Yes, difficult for all of us. A fine discrimination between different realities is essential. A. Sujin always asks us: "is there any clinging to self who is doing something? Who is mindful? Begin again." It must be like that. The Abhidhamma can help us, teaching about latent tendencies, and one of these is wrong view. It always lays dormant in all cittas, ready to condition akusala citta with wrong view. Wrong view accompanies citta rooted in attachment, important to remember this. Thus, clinging to self arises and this should not surprise us. Think of the latent tendencies that are already there for aeons. I liked Kom's examples of saying anumodana already, by conditions. You do not have to think, it is sati that motivates this. This is the way it works. It helps most of all not to have any intention for sati, let it depend on conditions. We do not have to be lazy, we follow whatever opportunity for kusala presents itself. Listening, considering, helping others, and when there are conditions for some understanding of realities, it will arise because of its own conditions and it will grow very gradually. Nina. 23381 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:23am Subject: Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. Perfections, Ch 11, Equanimity, no 6. The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, it is non-disturbance by controversial conduct of people, by trying events or by the vicissitudes of life, no matter whether they are desirable or undesirable, such as gain and loss, praise and blame. At present we suffer because of being easily disturbed and unstable, but someone who has firm understanding of kamma can become unaffected by the vicissitudes of life. If one develops the perfection of equanimity, one does not pay attention to the wrongs of others, as the Commentary to the ³Basket of Conduct² explains. One can be impartial and evenminded, undisturbed by the wrongs of others, because one understands that people will receive the result of their own kamma. Some people may txink, when others receive unpleasant results, that it serves them right, but if someone has developed the perfection of equanimity, he will not think in that way. He is able to understand paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, dhammas which are anattå and beyond control. We read in the ³Basket of Conduct² (The Perfection of Equanimity, III, 15, the Great Astounding Conduct) that the Bodhisatta developed the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree (as an ultimate perfection, paramattha paråmí), during the life he was the wise Lomahamsa. The Commentary states: The Great Being was born at that time into a wealthy family, and he completed his education, mastering all branches of knowledge under the tutorship of the teacher Disåpåmukha. When his parents had died he became disenchanted with worldly conditions and he acquired a sense of urgency, although the members of his family implored him while weeping to take care of the family possessions. He had become disenchanted because he contemplated impermanence with wise attention, he reflected on the foulness of his body, and he did not want to give in to the defilements that would cause him to be involved with married life. He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities would not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the state of monkhood. He reflected: ³I should just have sufficient belongings so as not to exceed what is normal as to gain and loss.² Someone who becomes a monk receives praise because of the excellence of monkhood. However, the Great Being rejected the gain and honour which one would receive as a monk. He thought that even though he would not be a monk, he would conduct himself in such a way that others could praise him. He would not exceed what is normal as to gain and loss. This is a way of thinking which is firmly established in kusala. The state of monkhood is different from the state of the layman. The monk is bound to receive more favours and honour than a layman, because of the excellence of monkhood. The Bodhisatta rejected gain and honour and he did not cling to them. He thought that he could lead a life as a layman without exceeding what is normal as to gain and honour. 23382 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:27am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Dave, Thanks for jumping in. In dhamma, the more the merrier! > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 9:52 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > Kom, > > To keep jumping in! ... > > Your description below brings to mind a lecture I heard just this AM > from Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. He talked about there being 2 aspects; > Practice and Wisdom. If we try to practice w/o wisdom, then we are > like the man driving from DC to NYC but with no directions, only > taking streets at random (his simile). If we work on wisdom w/o > practice then we are like the person who only reads the menu at a > restaurant (again his simile). > Let me ask you, Dave. Is wisdom practice? Is practice wisdom? kom 23383 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > Let me ask you, Dave. Is wisdom practice? Is practice wisdom? > > kom So far as I understand things at this point, they are not eachother, but they are 2 separate things needed for enlightenment. Like you need head and air (and combustibles) to make fire (my simile!). Am I close? :-) Peace, Dave 23384 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 0:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:40 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > > Let me ask you, Dave. Is wisdom practice? Is practice wisdom? > > > > kom > > So far as I understand things at this point, they are not eachother, > but they are 2 separate things needed for enlightenment. Like you > need head and air (and combustibles) to make fire (my simile!). > This is how I understand it. There is only one path toward enlightenment, and that is the 8-fold path. Although all 8 factors are required to reach the path, wisdom is the forerunner: without wisdom, it is not a path. With wisdom, however, the other factors come along automatically. Although wisdom is not practice (the 8-fold path), but it is probably the most important factor. There are 3 levels of wisdom: wisdom at the listening level, wisdom at the consideration level, and wisdom at the "practice" level. Wisdom at the "practice" level has the 5-khandhas (or realities, paramatha-dhamma) as its object. Whenever there is sati (and wisdom) arising to cognize khandha as khandha, reality as reality (instead of reality as self), there is the wisdom at the practice level. Regardless of what you are doing, sitting, eating, walking, etc., when there is wisdom cognizing a reality as reality, a "practice" is said to have taken place. The next question I have for you is, when can we have this practice? kom 23385 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 0:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi Howard and all, I would say that wisdom is right discernment. In that sense, wisdom is different from mindfulness. It is not much of seeing what is what. With right discernment, one sees thing as it actually is. In other words, with panna/right discernment, one sees the wholesome as wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. With right discernment, one sees nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect, not self. With right discernment, one sees the four noble truths as they are: dukkha, the origination of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. I tend to agree with the following. ...the exercise of volition is possible. Not only is it possible, it is *common*. In particular, paying attention to exactly what is happening at any time is something that one can exert the effort to do. The more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a *habit* of mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of cultivation. It requires ongoing vigilance. But it can be done. Peace, Victor 23386 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi James! > > Long time no talk :-). Hi Kom, It really hasn't been that long, but since I used to talk so much it might seem that way...;-) I am going to reply to your post in piecemeal, something I don't like to do, because it is packed with many deceptively simple statements which can lead to false conclusions, I believe. In other words, it must be deconstructed: Kom: Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental factors. James: I do not believe that Panna is one mental factor and I haven't seen statement of this in the texts. It isn't just one thing that only certain people possess. Panna is a broad term that can be applied to a large host of mental factors which lead toward truth and away from ignorance. Kom: It comes about by its own conditions, and then it immediately falls away: it doesn't last. James: Again, Panna isn't just one thing and this statement goes for everything in samsara; I am not sure of your point. Kom: We gain more wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. James: Only if we put them into practice. Intellectual understanding of Buddhism without the practice isn't true wisdom (Panna). Panna is different from intellect. Not everyone has the same potential when it comes to intellect, not all IQ potential is the same, but everyone does has the same potential when it comes to Panna. Panna isn't dependent on intellect, it is only dependent on the possession of a mind…even illiterates who have never read a word of `official` dhamma can have Panna. Kom: For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright light showing us the path and the truth. We become more wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, as it doesn't come from ignorance. James: This is contradictory and extremely vague. If Panna cannot come from ignorance than ignorant people wouldn't be attracted to the dhamma; there would be no beginning catalyst. I also believe that you are misinterpreting the Buddha's teaching about associating with the wise. The Buddha didn't teach that one MUST associate with the wise to have wisdom, he taught that one MUST disassociate with the unwise in order to have wisdom…that it is better to travel alone than with a fool for company. The Buddha achieved enlightenment only when he had disassociated himself from everyone, a very important point to remember. Kom: Do you know that for our Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last life? Associating with the wise is the most important factor of developing panna. James: I don't believe this is factual, it is more fable than fact. It makes no sense that Siddhartha Gotama would have to learn from 24 different Buddhas before achieving the ultimate unbinding and yet during the Buddha`s lifetime several thousand monks achieved the ultimate unbinding. It shouldn't take the teachings of 24 different Buddhas to get a person there. Does that make any sense to you? This fable was created to increase the mystique and `superhero' status of the Buddha. The goal of a Buddha is to teach the direct path to Nirvana to his/her students in a manner that is to be followed to fruition, not to delay the process for lifetime after lifetime. Kom: Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? James: I don't normally talk to people who won't listen, bright or not...except when I am teaching class and I have no choice ;-). However, most intelligent people listen to the dhamma as a subject of some interest; Buddhism is gaining popularity among the educated and many have some understanding of the basics. But intellectual understanding and practice are two different things. My question is why is it that there are so many who listen but then don't do? Kom Metta, James 23387 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: Self Ownership --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > I was just thinking of you when you sent this post. How is life in Egypt, > any temples or Buddhists there? > Best wishes, > Nina. Hi Nina, Thank you for thinking of me...just make sure they are always good thoughts ;-). I may write more to your inquiry later, stay tuned. Metta, James 23389 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Kom, Regarding the discussion on pañña, here is a discourse that might be of some interest. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 Pañña Sutta Discernment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an08-002.html Your comments are appreciated. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi James! [snip] > > Not at all, James. Panna is one factor among many mental > factors. It comes about by its own conditions, and then it > immediately falls away: it doesn't last. We gain more > wisdom by listening (and understanding) the true teachings. > For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's dhamma is a bright > light showing us the path and the truth. We become more > wise by associating with the wise: we cannot create wisdom, > as it doesn't come from ignorance. Do you know that for our > Buddha, he learned from the other 24 Buddhas before him > (once he was predicted by the Buddha Dipankara that he would > become one)? If panna grows randomly, or if it only takes > tranquil (samatha) meditation, why did the Bodhisatta have > to listen (and develop panna) with the 24 Buddhas before > him, before he could become self-enlightened in his last > life? Associating with the wise is the most important > factor of developing panna. > > Do you ever talk about dhamma to your very bright friends > who wouldn't listen? You know it is a good thing, how come > you listen, and they don't? And for such a good thing? > > kom 23390 From: Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Hi, Victor - Yes, we seem to very much in agreement on this issue! With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/10/03 3:43:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > I would say that wisdom is right discernment. In that sense, wisdom > is different from mindfulness. It is not much of seeing what is > what. With right discernment, one sees thing as it actually is. In > other words, with panna/right discernment, one sees the wholesome as > wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. With right discernment, > one sees nama and rupa as impermanent, > dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect, not self. With right discernment, > one sees the four noble truths as they are: dukkha, the origination > of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way leading to the cessation > of dukkha. > > > I tend to agree with the following. > > > ...the exercise of volition is possible. Not only is it possible, it > is *common*. In particular, paying attention to exactly what is > happening at any time is something that one can exert the effort to > do. The more one does it, the easier it becomes. One can develop a > *habit* of mindfulness. It's not easy. It's a matter of > cultivation. It requires ongoing vigilance. But it can be done. > > > Peace, > Victor > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 23391 From: dwlemen Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Kom, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" > > This is how I understand it. There is only one path toward enlightenment, > and that is the 8-fold path. Although all 8 factors are required to reach > the path, wisdom is the forerunner: without wisdom, it is not a path. With > wisdom, however, the other factors come along automatically. Although > wisdom is not practice (the 8-fold path), but it is probably the most > important factor. DAVE REPLY: Do you differentiate wisdom and "Right Understanding?" Also, when you say that "the other factors come along automatically" what do you mean? Especially if you are equating wisdom and Right Understanding. > > There are 3 levels of wisdom: wisdom at the listening level, wisdom at the > consideration level, and wisdom at the "practice" level. Wisdom at the > "practice" level has the 5-khandhas (or realities, paramatha- dhamma) as its > object. Whenever there is sati (and wisdom) arising to cognize khandha as > khandha, reality as reality (instead of reality as self), there is the > wisdom at the practice level. > > Regardless of what you are doing, sitting, eating, walking, etc., when there > is wisdom cognizing a reality as reality, a "practice" is said to have taken > place. > > The next question I have for you is, when can we have this practice? > > kom DAVE REPLY: According to your definition of a "practice" it could be done at any time. I thing we are going to return to the "to meditate or not to meditate, that is the question" question. I may very well be wrong, but I do still think of meditation as similiar to practice sessions (to reuse the word!). When I used to play soccer, we'd practice intensively between each game. I think that meditation is sort of the same. It trains the mind to prefer a singular focus vs. a scattered focus, and it trains the awareness to discern "reality as reality" by limiting the stimulus. I think we do have a time/place that we would do this. It's one thing to be sitting in my room and going "hearing hearing" when the dog barks. It's another to be in my truck going "seeing seeing" when oncoming traffic approaches. :-) Now, assuming what I take to be your (and Sarah's and others here) belief that meditation is not essential, how do you, personally train your mind to see "reality as reality?" (perhaps I'm asking "what is Right Effort?"). Peace, Dave 23392 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] what next Dear Jim, Thank you for your offer. I appreciate this very much. Meanwhile I shall see how things work out or what will be decided. Nina. op 10-07-2003 15:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > I can easily supply the Pali text from the CSCD 23393 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Dear Dave, > -----Original Message----- > From: dwlemen [mailto:dwlemen@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 2:38 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > > DAVE REPLY: > Do you differentiate wisdom and "Right > Understanding?" Also, when > you say that "the other factors come along > automatically" what do you > mean? Especially if you are equating wisdom and Right > Understanding. I do equate right understanding in the 8-fold path to wisdom. Wisdom is defined as mental factor that knows things as they truly are. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn117.html In the above sutta, we can see that without wisdom, one cannot tell micha-magga (the misperceived 8-fold path) and samma-magga (the right 8-fold path). > > DAVE REPLY: > According to your definition of a "practice" it > could be done at any > time. Thanks for trying to understand what I said! > I thing we are going to return to the "to > meditate or not to > meditate, that is the question" question. I may > very well be wrong, > but I do still think of meditation as similiar to > practice sessions > (to reuse the word!). That's why the ancient commentaries and the abhidhamma are so helpful. They explain the 8-fold path, mundane and supramundane, more precisely, suitable for ones with much ignorance! > It's one thing to be > sitting in my room and > going "hearing hearing" when the dog barks. It's > another to be in my > truck going "seeing seeing" when oncoming traffic > approaches. :-) When wisdom knows the true characteristic of dhamma, that is when there is a practice. Immediately after that, we think about what has fallen away. When you say, hearing, hearing, (or think hearing, hearing), is that knowing the characteristic of reality or is that thinking? It is important to be able to discriminate the two. You are seeing now, no? You see how quickly seeing can happen, without prompting, without making any words to call it. Sati works in a similar way. Without thinking of words, it is mindful of the realities. Driving and wisdom at the pati-pati level are not exclusive. The mind and its mental factors rolled on uninterrupted: sati knows its object when it arises. There is no need to think to ourselves, that is too fast, I can't "catch" it: we are already thinking of the "I" who can catch. In realities, only dhamma rolls on, uninterrupted. > Now, assuming what I take to be your (and Sarah's > and others here) > belief that meditation is not essential, how do > you, personally train > your mind to see "reality as reality?" (perhaps > I'm asking "what is > Right Effort?"). > I think there are others who take my view point, but there are others who don't. Nina says in her book: citta is variegated. Now we can understand why! The abhidhamma teaches us that there are efforts in all kusala and akusala states. In akusala states, it is the wrong effort. In kusala states, there are the right efforts. With sati that is mindful of reality, it is the right effort of the 8-fold path. My answer to you is, whenever there is sati and wisdom knowing the reality as they are, there is already the right efforts, regardless of whether we know, don't know, want, or don't want it. kom 23394 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi James, > -----Original Message----- > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:05 PM > > James: I do not believe that Panna is one mental > factor and I haven't > seen statement of this in the texts. This we disagree. > It isn't > just one thing that > only certain people possess. Panna can be developed. > Panna is a broad > term that can be > applied to a large host of mental factors which > lead toward truth and > away from ignorance. We disagree again! > > Kom: It comes about by its own conditions, and > then it immediately > falls away: it doesn't last. > James: Again, Panna isn't just one thing and this > statement goes for > everything in samsara; I am not sure of your point. Anything falling away points to the fact that nothing can be possessed, even panna. > > James: Only if we put them into practice. > Intellectual understanding > of Buddhism without the practice isn't true > wisdom (Panna). This we disagree. I would say intellect, knowing things as they truly are, but without knowing the actual characteristic, is just panna at a different level. > Panna is > different from intellect. Not everyone has the > same potential when > it comes to intellect, not all IQ potential is > the same, but everyone > does has the same potential when it comes to > Panna. That we also disagree. People understand dhammas to different degree because they have different accumulations. Do you think you and others have the same level of understandings of the dhamma? > Panna isn't > dependent on intellect, it is only dependent on > the possession of a > mind…even illiterates who have never read a word > of `official` dhamma > can have Panna. They must have accumulated enough. There are many in the Buddha's time, even after having listened to the teaching from the supreme teacher, didn't understand what he said, despite their education (of that time). > > Kom: For one with much ignorance, the Buddha's > dhamma is a bright > light showing us the path and the truth. We > become more wise by > associating with the wise: we cannot create > wisdom, as it doesn't > come from ignorance. > James: This is contradictory and extremely vague. > If Panna cannot > come from ignorance than ignorant people wouldn't > be attracted to the > dhamma; there would be no beginning catalyst. With the right conditions, panna can be induced in the people who don't have panna --- the is the reason of existence of the samma-sambuddha. > I > also believe that > you are misinterpreting the Buddha's teaching > about associating with > the wise. The Buddha didn't teach that one MUST > associate with the > wise to have wisdom, he taught that one MUST > disassociate with the > unwise in order to have wisdom…that it is better > to travel alone than > with a fool for company. The Buddha achieved > enlightenment only when > he had disassociated himself from everyone, a > very important point to > remember. Only the Buddha can be self-enlightened. Everyone else has to listen to the wise sage. No association, no chance of listening. > James: I don't believe this is factual, it is > more fable than fact. > It makes no sense that Siddhartha Gotama would > have to learn from 24 > different Buddhas before achieving the ultimate > unbinding and yet > during the Buddha`s lifetime several thousand > monks achieved the > ultimate unbinding. Only because there is a samma-sambuddha. No samma-sambuddha, then there can be only paceka-buddha, but not disciple ariyans. > It shouldn't take the > teachings of 24 different > Buddhas to get a person there. Does that make > any sense to you? I understand the dhamma to be extremely profound, and extremely subtle. It doesn't surprise me that it takes such a long time for a person to accumulate enough to be able to explain all the possible aspects of the dhamma. A disciple ariyan, who became enlightened because of the Buddha, don't need to know as many aspects: they don't even need to be able to explain it. > things. My question is > why is it that there are so many who listen but > then don't do? > Because we have different understandings of what "doing" is. kom 23395 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi Victor, If you are about to explain dhamma based on this sutta, please do! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:26 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > Hi Kom, > > Regarding the discussion on pañña, here is a > discourse that might be > of some interest. > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 > Pañña Sutta > Discernment > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an0 > 8-002.html > 23396 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Jul 10, 2003 10:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH Dear Victor, > -----Original Message----- > From: yu_zhonghao [mailto:yu_zhonghao@y...] > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 12:37 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/KenH > > > Hi Howard and all, > > I would say that wisdom is right discernment. In > that sense, wisdom > is different from mindfulness. It is not much of > seeing what is > what. With right discernment, one sees thing as > it actually is. In > other words, with panna/right discernment, one > sees the wholesome as > wholesome, the unwholesome as unwholesome. With > right discernment, > one sees nama and rupa as impermanent, > dukkha/unsatisfactory/imperfect, not self. With > right discernment, > one sees the four noble truths as they are: > dukkha, the origination > of dukkha, the cessation of dukkha, the way > leading to the cessation > of dukkha. > > I spoke too soon on the other post. I think you have already explained part of the sutta! With appreciation, kom 23397 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: Putting into practice/Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Hi James, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 1:05 PM > > > > James: I do not believe that Panna is one mental > > factor and I haven't > > seen statement of this in the texts. > > This we disagree. > > > It isn't > > just one thing that > > only certain people possess. > > Panna can be developed. > > > Panna is a broad > > term that can be > > applied to a large host of mental factors which > > lead toward truth and > > away from ignorance. > > We disagree again! Hi Kom, Hmmm…it looks like we are in disagreement about practically everything. Oh well, I don't think that you and I are ever going to see eye-to-eye on this issue because I practice formal meditation and you don't. We each view the dhamma in different ways and will probably never reach an overall agreement about certain key issues. No reason to keep butting heads over it! ;-). Metta, James 23398 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard Hi James, > -----Original Message----- > From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] > Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 1:20 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Putting into practice/Howard > > > Hmmm…it looks like we are in disagreement about > practically > everything. Oh well, I don't think that you and > I are ever going to > see eye-to-eye on this issue because I practice > formal meditation and > you don't. We each view the dhamma in different > ways and will > probably never reach an overall agreement about > certain key issues. > No reason to keep butting heads over it! ;-). > Not perhaps in this life. If each of us continues on the path that the Buddha taught, eventually we will reach a similar conclusion. I believe truth is one! kom 23399 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 11, 2003 3:03pm Subject: FWD from Buddha-L List: "Paper on Universal Friendship" "Dear friends, colleagues and fellow practitioners, For the past several years I have been participating in an interfaith conference that has been meeting in various locations under various working titles, such as Conference on Actualizing Human Potential. The broad themes of the conference have been hospitality, hostility and the hope of human flourishing. The final meeting of this conference will be in Sevilla, Spain in December 2003. The Sevilla meeting will consist mostly of invited leaders from various religious traditions. Among other things, they will be asked to reflect on papers submitted by academic panel members. The invited Buddhist leaders will therefore be asked to reflect on a paper submitted by me. All of us who are submitting papers have been asked to let other members of our religious community examine the papers to make sure we have not misrepresented our religious traditions too much or given too one-sided a picture. The paper I am submitting is entitled "Buddhist Views on Overcoming Obstacles to Universal Friendship." The latest draft is available for viewing by anyone who would like to read it; it is a PDF file that can be viewed using Adobe Reader or xpdf (for you Linux users, blessed be your names) approximately 150K (24 printed pages) in length. If you are interested in reading it, you can do so by going to http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes/hayes_sevilla.pdf . If you have comments on this paper, please send them to me directly. If anyone wishes to discuss any of the issues raised in the paper on BUDDHA-L, I suppose that would also be fine, provided enough people are interested. Mostly what I wish to know is whether any of my fellow Buddhists feel I have given a portrait of Buddhism with which they would feel uncomfortable as Buddhist practitioners. (Of course the paper is bound to be selective and incapable of covering every possible Buddhist practice, but at least I hope not to have been unnecessarily one-sided or sectarian.) Just to give you a very superficial overview, the titles of the sections of the paper are as follows: 1. Hospitality and universal friendship 2. Hostility and xenophobia (the hindrances to universal friendship) 2.1 The nature of the problem 2.2 A critique of making unwarranted divisions 2.3 Outsiders: the foolish masses 2.4 Entering the stream 2.5 A presentation of two prognoses (Kant versus Gotama) 2.6 Two prognoses, two kinds of hope 3. Overcoming the hindrances 3.1 Going for refuge 3.2 The ten factors of awakening 3.3 Realizing one's potentials as a human being 3.4 Religious pluralism 3.5 Realizing the promise of Buddhism 3.5.1 Emphasis on practical psychology 3.5.2 Emphasis on spiritual friendship and community I look forward to getting comments from any of you who elect to read the essay and offer your reflections on it." Richard P. Hayes Department of Philosophy University of New Mexico http://www.unm.edu/~rhayes