24600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:39am Subject: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Tika Visuddhimagga No 7. 7. dhammaana.m sako bhaavo, samaano ca bhaavo dhammasabhaavo. ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true nature. tattha pa.thamena kakkha.laphusanaadisalakkha.na.m gahita.m, dutiyena aniccadukkhataadisaama~n~nalakkha.na.m. Here, with regard to the first meaning (of characteristic), the coarse characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second meaning, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. tadubhayassa ca yaathaavato pa.tivijjhanalakkha.naa pa~n~naati aaha ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa''ti. And with regard to both meanings (of characteristic), he said that understanding is the true penetration of the characteristics, with the words, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual natures of dhammas.² gha.tapa.taadipa.ticchaadakassa baahirandhakaarassa diipaalokaadi viya just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, yathaavuttadhammasabhaavapa.ticchaadakassa mohandhakaarassa viddha.msanarasaa. even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of dhammas. uppajjamaano eva hi pa~n~naaloko hadayandhakaara.m vidhamento eva.m uppajjati, When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, tato eva dhammasabhaavesu asammuyhanaakaarena paccupati.t.thatiiti asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non-bewilderment with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its manifestation is non-delusion. kaara.nabhuutaa vaa saya.m phalabhuuta.m asammoha.m paccupa.t.thaapetiiti evampi asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its manifestation is non-delusion. vipassanaapa~n~naaya idha adhippetattaa ``samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana''nti vutta.m. Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration is its proximate cause². tathaa hi `` samaahito yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatii''ti suttapada.m nibandhanabhaavena aagata.m. Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. pa~n~naapabhedakathaava.n.nanaa The explanation of the division on understanding. ****** English: ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true nature. Here, with regard to the first phrase, the coarse characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second phrase, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. As to ³understanding² which has the characteristic of the precise understanding of both (kinds of characteristics), he said, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual natures of dhammas.² just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of dhammas. When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non-bewilderment with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its manifestation is non-delusion. Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its manifestation is non-delusion. Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration is its proximate cause². Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. The explanation of the division on understanding. ***** Nina. 24601 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Sir Mike! :o) "Really great to hear from you. I've often wondered what had become of you as things seemed to be improving in SL." Yes at least the number of dead body count came down drastically, but now the peace process is at a dead lock becase of the disagreements between govt and terrorists. Are you back in seattle , mike? "I'll notify 'Homeland Security' of your whereabouts." :o) best regards, gayan 24602 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:23am Subject: Re: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Nina, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Dhamma has its own characteristics. It is its own nature. Nature is nature. Nature governs by its own laws. When these laws can be realized, everything can be realized. Thanks for your effort. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Tika Visuddhimagga No 7. > > 7. dhammaana.m sako bhaavo, samaano ca bhaavo dhammasabhaavo. > ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true > nature. > > tattha pa.thamena kakkha.laphusanaadisalakkha.na.m gahita.m, dutiyena > aniccadukkhataadisaama~n~nalakkha.na.m. > Here, with regard to the first meaning (of characteristic), the coarse > characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second > meaning, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. > > tadubhayassa ca yaathaavato pa.tivijjhanalakkha.naa pa~n~naati aaha > ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.naa pa~n~naa''ti. > And with regard to both meanings (of characteristic), he said that > understanding is the true penetration of the characteristics, with the > words, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the > individual natures of dhammas.² > > > gha.tapa.taadipa.ticchaadakassa baahirandhakaarassa diipaalokaadi viya > just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the > darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, > > yathaavuttadhammasabhaavapa.ticchaadakassa mohandhakaarassa > viddha.msanarasaa. > even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness > of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of > dhammas. > > uppajjamaano eva hi pa~n~naaloko hadayandhakaara.m vidhamento eva.m > uppajjati, > When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner > darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, > > tato eva dhammasabhaavesu asammuyhanaakaarena paccupati.t.thatiiti > asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. > and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non- bewilderment > with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its > manifestation is non-delusion. > > kaara.nabhuutaa vaa saya.m phalabhuuta.m asammoha.m paccupa.t.thaapetiiti > evampi asammohapaccupa.t.thaanaa. > Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation > of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its > manifestation is non-delusion. > > vipassanaapa~n~naaya idha adhippetattaa ``samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana''nti > vutta.m. Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration > is its proximate cause². > > tathaa hi `` > samaahito yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatii''ti suttapada.m nibandhanabhaavena > aagata.m. > Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² > are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. > > pa~n~naapabhedakathaava.n.nanaa > > The explanation of the division on understanding. > > ****** > English: > > ³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true > nature. > Here, with regard to the first phrase, the coarse characteristic such as > touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second phrase, the general > characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. > As to ³understanding² which has the characteristic of the precise > understanding of both (kinds of characteristics), he said, ²understanding > has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual natures of > dhammas.² > just as the light of a lamp etc. has the function of destroying the > darkness outside, which conceals such things as a waterpot or a cloth, > even so is the function (of understanding) the destruction of the darkness > of ignorance which, as was said, conceals the individual characteristics of > dhammas. > When indeed the light of understanding arises and destroys the inner > darkness of one¹s heart, it appears as such, > and therefore, as to the phrase, it is manifested by way of non- bewilderment > with regard to the dhammas which have their own characteristics, its > manifestation is non-delusion. > Or since it has become a cause, it causes, as it is said, the manifestation > of non-delusion, as its own fruit that has grown, and thus also its > manifestation is non-delusion. > Here insight wisdom is referred to when it is said, ³concentration is its > proximate cause². > Therefore the words, ³who is concentrated knows things as they really are² > are words of the sutta referred to with the intention of urging. > The explanation of the division on understanding. > > ***** > Nina. 24603 From: icaro franca Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Htoo naing: --- htootintnaing: "Dhamma has its own characteristics. It is its own > nature. Nature is > nature. Nature governs by its own laws. When these > laws can be > realized, everything can be realized." --------------------------------------------------- Understood! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24604 From: m. nease Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All My Dear Fellow! ----- Original Message ----- From: Gayan Karunaratne To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:42 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All > Sir Mike! :o) > > "Really great to hear from you. I've often wondered what had become of you > as things seemed to be improving in SL." > > Yes at least the number of dead body count came down drastically, but now > the peace process is at a dead lock becase of the disagreements between govt > and terrorists. It never ends...of course, we don't hear much hear because little in the way of business interests. > Are you back in seattle , mike? I am--ordination in Thailand didn't work out, so I'm back for the duration. > "I'll notify 'Homeland Security' of your whereabouts." > > :o) > > best regards, Back At You, Sir, mike 24605 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Dear Nina, "So pleased to hear from you. I like the last wish. We have to know our akusala, not ignore it. Good reminder. So many moments of selfishness pass unnoticed. " its all self-self-self "As Mike said,< learning to recognize the prevalence and subtlety of akusala is not only invaluable in itself, it also points up the indispensibility of detailed understanding (hence abhidhamma) to practice.> I hope to hear from you again," Pleasure is all mine to read all your posts. best regards, gayan. 24606 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:08pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hello RobM, Thank you RobM - please send just whatever is conveniently to hand. English or Pali? Well, English would be lovely, and then again, as I am doing Intermediate Pali at Uni. Qld. Pali would be lovely as well. Decisions, decisions. I'll leave it up to you. :-) [I am getting a new carin a few weeks - my current one was second or third hand ten years ago when I got it and doesn't have a CD player (imagine that!). So, very soon, I'll be able to listen while driving too. :-)] Don't worry! I'll let everyone know when I'm on the road and you can all stay home. :-) Your continual generosity is appreciated very much, Rob. May I offer in exchange a CD of the Dhamma talks at a nine day meditation retreat by Ajahn Brahmavamso - and, my never ending delight, a superb CD of ten audio lectures "The Buddha's Teaching As It Is" ten audio lectures on the fundamentals of the Dhamma by the incomparable Bhikkhu Bodhi. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > I wonder > > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not > common, > > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? - one can feel this for > texts > > and chants just as much as for lovely songs. Is it because songs > can > > manipulate emotions? But many of the lyrical texts do that as > > well. Is it because songs weren't part of the culture? > > I have a number of Buddhist CDs that I listen to in the car. My > favourites are the "Mangala Sutta" and the "Chant of Metta". At the > local Buddhist bookstore there are a wide variety of CDs, > including "Morning Chanting", "Evening Chanting" and selections by a > Malaysian Buddhist Choral Group. > > A couple of years back, I sponsored the pressing of a "Parita Pali" > CD by Sayadaw U Silananda. I just dug one last spare copy out of a > bottom of a drawer and will be mailing it to you within the next few > days. > > Since I will already be mailing you a package, I might as well add > another CD or two. What is your preference? Pali or English? > Traditional or contemporary? CD or cassette? > > Enjoy! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24607 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:25pm Subject: Passivity in buddhism hi all, howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect suppositions" I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be presenting it wrong. I'll try in other words: The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of ones life is to be completely free of suffering. And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options can involve - to live with suffering. This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of disregarding. For example: It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and the unbeloved is to live in solitude. ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). Thoughts are appreciated. with metta, nori 24608 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: Passivity in buddhism Hello Nori, Howard, all, Interesting thoughts, interesting discussion. I'm late for work or I'd join in ... are we all agreed on exactly what suffering is? i.e. what the Buddha taught it is? Do we understand what 'detachment' is? - I don't think it is passivity, or indifference, or doing nothing. Nori - you mention 'the goal of one's life' - for me, as always, looming over all of this is Samsara and the relentless rounds of rebirth - all without discernible beginning. And complicating matters further is anatta - metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi all, > > howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing > this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. > > Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect > suppositions" > > I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be > presenting it wrong. > > I'll try in other words: > > The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of > ones life is to be completely free of suffering. > > And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options > can involve - to live with suffering. > > This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a > passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of > disregarding. > > For example: > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I > certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of > ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal > of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the > suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori 24609 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, Thank-you for your response. You've touched on many interesting points and really too many for me to respond to all at once. I will just take up a bit of what you wrote. [...] > I don't mean to be frivolous, Jim (let's blame it on Icaro's DSG > influence). I sincerely hope, as you know, that your ideas materialise in > this area. Azita and I could recommend one or two disrobed bhikkhus living > in real simplicity and solitude. The only problem, as I see it, is that > they see the internet as an intrusion and have far longer spells with > 'black outs' and without telephone lines, so I'm not sure how the > communication would work.... The communication could work through snail mail. I can sympathize with these two ex-bhikkhus seeing the internet as an intrusion as that's exactly how I'm seeing it now. However, I'm looking to make a compromise by restricting my usage and if I do get caught up in it again, I can always disconnect. [...] > I hope you don't mind, but I can't help asking what happens if you get > sick or have an accident when your tel.lines are cut and you're living > alone and without contact with neighbours? Do you have some contingency > measures? I seldom get sick or have an accident. The last accident was a year ago when I twisted my knee while out walking, but it wasn't serious enough to warrant seeing a doctor although that did cross my mind. I don't recall ever having to make an emergency call all the time I've been here and so it seems unlikely that this could happen during a short period, but if it does, and depending on the gravity of the situation, I can either send a letter to Orillia which might only take a day or two to reach or I can get in touch with my neighbour next door if it's a real emergency. [...] > .... > You've written a little more in other messages, I see. Jim, how do you > understand 'simplicity' as far as the Dhamma is concerned? Is there any > Pali equivalent that you have in mind. I'd be interested to hear more, but > only answer if you wish to and if it doesn't become another gridlock for > you;-) I wasn't thinking of any Pali word in particular for 'simplicity'. Buddhadatta gives: 1. amissataa 2. viniitataa 3. sugamataa. I was just thinking that 'voluntary simplicity' reflected my ideas of living a simple life along the lines of fewness of wishes (icchataa), contentment with little, enjoyment of a quiet life away from the hustle and bustle of the modern world, having more leisure time to devote oneself to meditation and study, and so on. I think there is quite a lot in the Theravada teachings to support such a life. I think one of the problems of living truly as a bhikkhu is the incredibly wide gap between it and living as a layperson in a busy modern society. It seems to me that for most people it is taking quite a psychological leap to go from one to the other, a leap that was probably not so great during the time of the Buddha when most people were living a much simpler life than now. I'm thinking that the simple life as a layperson could be a bridge between the two in that the layperson is free to work at his own pace towards the bhikkhu/homeless person ideal. I also understand that there can be other approaches too, it's really up to each individual to work out what's best. One could also take up a simple solitary life in the city. Although I'm planning to go offline at the end of September, I will soon be easing off from the internet traffic (I'm already looking for the exit!) and not responding as much as before, but will keep looking in and post the odd message. Best wishes, Jim 24610 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Christine, Thank-you for your response. I agree with you. It doesn't appear that there is enough interest (at least not yet) to warrant starting up another list anytime soon. I'd just as soon put that idea aside for now and take a wait and see approach. I also have the problem with clutter and how to get rid of it. It's really amazing what one accumulates in a lifetime. I like the term 'asset stripping'. Best wishes, Jim > Hello Jim, and All, > > Thanks for your reply. I think the idea of a separate list should be > given consideration, but I wonder if, initially at least, having a > Simple Living for Theravadins corner on dsg might be worthwhile. My > experience with a number of small lists is that they tend to dwindle > and die - whereas a larger list can often shelter several separate > interest groups and provide cross fertilisation, vitality and new > members - either occasional 'popper-inners' or committed 'true > believers'. This would also allow members to take 'leave of absence' > for a few months without a huge impact on a tiny group. Whichever > way it goes is fine with me. [...] 24611 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Hi Nori If Buddhism has you interested to this point; it would be a good idea to study the SuttaPitaka (Primarily the Four Great Nikayas) as these are almost universally accredited to the historical Buddha. Its clear that you have not accepted the Buddha's teaching nor understood quite what it is about. I don't think understanding will clear up without a year or more of consistent study of the Four Great Nikayas. Understanding has to be developed through "self introspection" combined with studying the Buddha's teaching. It's very hard to get a handle on it by asking peoples opinions in an online group. (Even an esteemed one like this.) ;) Comments on a few of your passages are below... Nori said... >>>It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and >>>maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. >>>... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and >>>the unbeloved is to live in solitude. >>>... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & >>>home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. TG... This is basically all correct. Hence the life of a monk. Monks generally do interact with society but in a limited fashion. Nori...>>>I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I >>>certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of >>>ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal >>>of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the >>>suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). TG...I think only a deep investigation into the psychological aspects that generate suffering are going to solve these dilemmas. These are also found in the Four Great Nikayas. The 12 Fold Chain that explains the generation of suffering and the way to break the links that lead to sufferings end is crucial. But the entire context of the Suttas rounds-out and explains the issues in full. Deciphering it is a bit of a skill however. It might also become clear to you that the Buddha's teaching lays out the most "righteous" Path possible!!! No good comes from anyone's suffering. But the only course you can steer with certitude is your own. Like the teachings say..."you got to pull yourself out of the mud before you can properly assist others." TG Thoughts are appreciated. with metta, nori In a message dated 8/26/2003 2:32:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi all, > > howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing > this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. > > Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect > suppositions" > > I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be > presenting it wrong. > > I'll try in other words: > > The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of > ones life is to be completely free of suffering. > > And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options > can involve - to live with suffering. > > This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a > passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of > disregarding. > > For example: > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I > certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of > ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal > of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the > suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > 24612 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Sarah, Thank you so much. I enjoyed every word and appreciate the time you have taken to write this. Sarah: "...and have never > since felt the slightest inclination or need to do anything in particular > or be in any particular place or lifestyle in order to develop > satipatthana." "...> I was so happy to feel `free' from the great burden of searching for the > truth or following a particular ritual." While I have often contemplated doing something like you have done (that takes a lot of bal... ehem, guts), I also thought, depending on what kind of situation I end up in, it might not be more conducive to enlightenment. For one thing, I would not have access to the entire tipitaka for study. Also, other problems might arise distracting me from progress. From Itivuttaka: § 82. {Iti III.33; Iti 75} "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "These three divine sounds sound forth among the devas on appropriate occasions. Which three? When a disciple of the noble ones, shaving off his hair & beard, clothing himself in the ochre robe, makes up his mind to go forth from the home life into homelessness, on that occasion the divine sound sounds forth among the devas: 'This disciple of the noble ones has made up his mind to do battle with Mara.' This is the first divine sound that sounds forth among the devas on appropriate occasions." This is suggested many times in the tipitaka. Maybe this is for those in advanced stages. In the meantime, I will do battle with mara right here. First I must know the basics. Back in those times in Kosala territory, it might have been more conducive to attainment then today (to be homeless) since many learned men wandered about and it gave one access to the teachings; Since writing did not exist yet, one could not just read them in a book, or on the internet. Thanks again for sharing your experience. with gratitude and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nori, > > It's nearly 30 years since I spent that time living in a forest monastery, > really living in solitude and seldom speaking at all, strictly following 8 > precepts ...snip 24613 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: desire for sex hi elias (and anyone with information), ...since somebody brought this up (I was embarrassed to ask): Is the physical desire for sex really triggered by thoughts ? Or is it just a natural physical chemical reaction ? Sometimes I just wake up in the morning with the feeling of sexual desire before any thoughts of it. How is this avoided ? Is this bad ? ...and by the way is masturbation considered wrong conduct ? with metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > All, > > If the mind is mindfull there's no chance that thoughts about sex, > fantasies about sex, fantasies about selfsex (masturbating), ...snip 24614 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Hi Chris, I am only superficially familiar with the Burmese technique and the Goenka technique but I would say the Goenka technique works rather one pointedly with the feeling khandha while the Burmese technique works with whatever arises. Which one to choose is mostly a matter of what suits your accumulations. You might also consider why you meditate. The above techniques are aimed primarily at insight. I meditate to cultivate tranquility, discipline the mind, and work with the hindrances. For that, anapanasati straight out of the sutta is fine. Insight is mostly prompted by considering the dhamma. Larry 24615 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Hi, Nori - In a message dated 8/26/03 5:32:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > hi all, > > howard - sorry, I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers by bringing > this up; ...and thanks for the kind reply. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank *you*. Actually, we ruffle our own feathers by reacting. Learning not ot react testily to what we don't like in some respect is darn good Buddhist practice. --------------------------------------------------- > > Also, howard, you may be right in me basing it "on a few incorrect > suppositions" > > I guess the issue I am trying to address is many fold and I may be > presenting it wrong. > > I'll try in other words: > > The philosophy of Buddhism works under the premise that the goal of > ones life is to be completely free of suffering. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would add also assisting others in freeing themselves from suffering. This is a clear element of the Dhamma, to be found in all schools, though made most explicit in Mahayana. I think that where we may differ at least in part is in what we mean by 'suffering'. The way I understand the Dhamma as understanding the term is as mental pain due to craving and aversion. It is not mere unpleasantness, even extreme unpleasantness. ---------------------------------------------------- > > And so, if this is the goal, then none of the solutions or options > can involve - to live with suffering. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Living with unpleasant conditions is unavoidable, even by arahants. But living with suffering is avoidable, and the noble eightfold path is exactly the means to that end. Some Buddhists understand parinibbana as absence of all conditions, not just absence of apparently separate, self-existent conditions, but absence of all psychophysical experience/conditions whatsoever in *any* sense, and if, indeed, that understanding is correct, then the beyond the death of an arahant, not even unpleasantness remains. ------------------------------------------------------ > > This leads to solutions to many of lifes sufferings by taking a > passive position, or position of avoidance, or position of > disregarding. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The practice of the Dhamma is exactly the opposite of avoidance. The Dhamma has precise mindfulness and clear comprehension of exactly what arises as central to the practice. We don't conquer suffering by avoiding what we find unpleasant and by grasping after what we find pleasant. We conquer suffering by attention instead of inattention - mindfulness instead of mindlessness, and this together with a cultivation of calm and nonreaction. ------------------------------------------------------- > > For example: > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is not the approach of the Buddha. It is the "natural" but disastrous approach of every worldling there has ever been. (With regard to the living off alms part: The life of a monk is the life of a specialist, and it includes conditions that optimize practice. It is not a matter of avoidance in the aversive sense, but of simply providing conditions suitable to more rapid progress. It is an option open to Buddhists in general - though, unfortunately not women at the moment except in a limited fashion - and it does not involve coercion. Those who choose to support the Sangha are free to do so, and those who choose not to are free to so choose.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I am not certain if I completely agree with these solutions. Nor am I > certain whether I completely agree with the premise that the goal of > ones life is to become completely free of suffering. Maybe the goal > of ones life, instead, is to be righteous, regardless of the > suffering one may experience (whatever righteous might be). > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I enthousiastically join you in your dedication to righteousness, and if I thought that righteousness and love and compassion, on the one hand, and one's personal escape from dukkha, on the other, were incompatible, then I would forego the escape. Fortunately, as I see it, and as I understand the Dhamma as seeing it, these fit together hand in glove, with total compatibility, and, in fact, mutual support. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > with metta, > nori > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24616 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Hi Nina, Well done! This clears up what happened to the general characteristics. Could we say, for example, the understanding by an insight knowledge of the specific characteristic of hardness is understanding hardness as impermanent, suffering, or not self? I think we will find out what an insight knowledge is later in the chapter. Larry 24617 From: Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 0:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Hi again, Nori - In a message dated 8/26/03 7:35:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > >For example: > > > >It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > >maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > > >... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > >the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > > >... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > >home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is not the approach of the Buddha. It is the "natural" but > disastrous approach of every worldling there has ever been. =========================== What I wrote here is unclear. My point was that the Buddha didn't recommend separating oneself from family, society, and work as an aversive avoidance practice, but simply as a supportive technique for the "specialist". Where I referred to "the 'natural' but disastrous approach of every worldling," I meant the practice of aversive avoidance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24618 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:22pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Jeff, Please send your snail mail address to my email address and let me know what kind of music / chanting you would like. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" wrote: > Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd burner, but I would be > more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I listed for > Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional chants, or whatever > you could make time for. It would be much appreciated as I can only > locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. 24619 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism hi howard, me: > > For example: > > > > It seems as though the solution to the sufferings of having and > > maintaining a family is simply to choose not to have one. > > > > ... or the solution to the suffering of association with society and > > the unbeloved is to live in solitude. > > > > ... or the solution to the stress of having and maintaining a job & > > home is simply to not have one, and to live off alms. > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The life of a monk is the life of a specialist, and it > includes conditions that optimize practice. It is not a matter of avoidance in the > aversive sense, but of simply providing conditions suitable to more rapid > progress. also howard... > My point was that the Buddha didn't recommend separating oneself > from family, society, and work as an aversive avoidance practice, > but simply as a supportive technique for the "specialist". It is still the case that by taking the choice 'to provide conditions for his own rapid progress', he is also sacrificing part of his ability (in some respects) to act for others as a functional member of the community/family. ... but like many have mentioned, he still teaches and sustains the dhamma, that is his part in community. Thanks for your helpful comments. peace and metta, nori 24620 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi christine & Rob, christine wrote: > > I wonder > > why Buddhism doesn't have songs and hymms? 'Once in Royal Davids' > > City' doesn't quite feel right ... If Buddhist hymms are not > common, > > it couldn't be because of lobha surely? I could tell you why Buddhism has no songs or hymns. The Buddha was quite against music. -------------- Digha Nikaya 11 Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta "He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from watching shows." --------------- ...also from monastic code (access to insight): There is a dukkata for going to see dancing, singing, or music. According to the Commentary, "dancing" includes going to see even peacocks dancing. It also includes dancing oneself and getting others to dance. (The Rona Sutta -- A.III.103 -- notes that, in the discipline of the noble ones, dancing counts as insanity.) "Singing" includes drama music as well as "sadhu music," which according to the Sub-commentary means music dealing with Dhamma themes such as impermanence. Other religious music would come under this prohibition as well. The Commentary adds that "singing" also includes singing oneself and getting others to sing. The same holds true for "playing music." (The Rona Sutta also notes that, in the discipline of the noble ones, singing counts as wailing.) However, there is no offense in snapping one's fingers or clapping one's hands in irritation or exasperation. There is also no offense if, within the monastery, one happens to see/hear dancing, singing, or music, but if one goes from one dwelling to another with the intention to see/hear, one incurs a dukkata. The same holds true for getting up from one's seat with the intention to see/hear; or if, while standing in a road, one turns one's neck to see. ------------------ This was a tough one for me since I love music. I used to compose music as well, and play some percussive instruments but not so much anymore (because of buddhist practice?; who knows.) I still listen to music some times. peace and metta, nori 24621 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Passivity in buddhism Nori says: > It is still the case that by taking the choice 'to provide conditions > for his own rapid progress', he is also sacrificing part of his > ability (in some respects) to act for others as a functional member > of the community/family. ... but like many have mentioned, he still > teaches and sustains the dhamma, that is his part in community. > > Thanks for your helpful comments. > > > peace and metta, > > nori I agree with you description of sacrificing, but we also have to remember that by taking up the lay life, becoming a lay functional member of the community/family he/she is also sacrificing his/her ability to sustain the Dhamma through the practice of the path laid out by the Buddha. This is from Iti 98 "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "There are these two kinds of gifts: a gift of material things & a gift of the Dhamma. Of the two, this is supreme: a gift of the Dhamma. There are these two kinds of sharing: sharing of material things & sharing of the Dhamma. Of the two, this is supreme: sharing of the Dhamma. There are these two kinds of assistance: assistance with material things & assistance with the Dhamma. Of the two, this is supreme: help with the Dhamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/iti/iti3.html I think it is this relationship between lay and ordained that has enabled Buddhism to last as long as it has, like two sticks leaning together to hold up the teachings of the Buddha. Take one stick away and the other falls. So even in times when both are hard to maintain due to external stresses, such as drought, etc, both sides have found strength in continuing the mutual support... In Metta Ray 24622 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi Nori, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > I could tell you why Buddhism has no songs or hymns. > > The Buddha was quite against music. > > -------------- > Digha Nikaya 11 > Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta > > "He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from > watching shows." > --------------- > ...also from monastic code (access to insight): > > There is a dukkata for going to see dancing, singing, or music. > According to the Commentary, "dancing" includes going to see even > peacocks dancing. It also includes dancing oneself and getting others > to dance. (The Rona Sutta -- A.III.103 -- notes that, in the > discipline of the noble ones, dancing counts as insanity.) "Singing" > includes drama music as well as "sadhu music," which according to the > Sub-commentary means music dealing with Dhamma themes such as > impermanence. Other religious music would come under this prohibition > as well. The Commentary adds that "singing" also includes singing > oneself and getting others to sing. The same holds true for "playing > music." (The Rona Sutta also notes that, in the discipline of the > noble ones, singing counts as wailing.) However, there is no offense > in snapping one's fingers or clapping one's hands in irritation or > exasperation. There is also no offense if, within the monastery, one > happens to see/hear dancing, singing, or music, but if one goes from > one dwelling to another with the intention to see/hear, one incurs a > dukkata. The same holds true for getting up from one's seat with the > intention to see/hear; or if, while standing in a road, one turns > one's neck to see. > > ------------------ > > This was a tough one for me since I love music. > > I used to compose music as well, and play some percussive instruments > but not so much anymore (because of buddhist practice?; who knows.) > > I still listen to music some times. The Buddha had one set of rules for laypeople and one set of rules for monks. It is true that the Buddha did not approve of monks being involved in music. This is because the Buddha did not want to encourage the monks to participate in any activities that might lead to attachment to the senses. On a similar theme, the Vinaya suggests that monks should not cook for themselves (the temptation to choose to cook things that they liked to eat would be very strong). Monks are not allowed to be married as marriage brings attachments. The Buddha was not against householders getting married. The Buddha was not against householders preparing their own food. As far as I know, the Buddha was not against householders being involved in music. From time to time, there are shows involving singing and dancing staged at the temple. These are done by Sunday School kids, as part of "public ceremonies", to entertain large groups of visiting old folks / orphans, etc. . The monks are sometimes observers, but never participants in these shows. Metta, Rob M :-) 24623 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:51pm Subject: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, You were saying: --------------- > Generally speaking, I accept with little > questioning, but with constant consideration for > purposes of understanding, what appears to have come > directly from the Buddha. I truly do not know whether > this includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, > . . . . > > At this point, I have to depend on synopses, > commentaries (mostly reports of commentaries), and > characterizations, some of which material rings true to > me and some of which, from my observation, contradicts > basic teachings given in the Sutta Pitaka. ------------- Which contradictions do you have in mind? The controversial areas that I'm aware of seem to involve personal preferences rather than contradictions. For example, I would prefer that the suttas didn't acquiesce in slavery and the subordination of women. Furthermore, I don't like the assumption that gods and demons play a role in the human world (influencing the weather, for example). Nor am I entirely happy about the heart being the organ of the mind (as asserted in the commentaries). But these things are no impediment when considered in light of the whole Tipitaka. For example, we read that a dutiful wife treats her parents-in-law as if they were gods. We might have trouble with that outmoded notion but we have also been taught that living beings and cultural practices are not real, they are conventional designations. So we understand the example as a conventional explanation of kusala citta with metta. And there is no problem. I think we should learn what is in the texts. Once we start to strike out troublesome parts, we are on a long and slippery slope: we have begun to rewrite the whole Theravada tradition. -------------- > But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my meaning > of that word, then concepts are conditioned mind-door > objects, and are not special except for their > usefulness and their perils. --------------- But which conditioned object could they be? Vitakka? Vicara? Unlikely; I don't see how a thought could be the same as "thought conception" or "discursive thinking." That would be like saying that a cake is the same as 'mixing' or 'baking.' -------------------- > I do not believe that what a microbe or a > hungry ghost will find pleasant/unpleasant is the same > as what a human finds pleasant/unpleasant. ------------------- What I was referring to was not what is 'found to be' pleasant, but what 'is' pleasant. The objects of kusala vipaka-citta and akusala vipaka-citta are inherently pleasant and unpleasant respectively. As properties of sense objects, 'pleasant' and 'unpleasant' are absolute: they are not influenced by how those sense objects are perceived. ------------- > If I'm incorrect, so what? This issue is a very > small one, of little import -------------- I think the important thing is that we ascertain what is in the Tipitaka. Only then, can it be proved or disproved by experience. --------- > . . . > > As far as commentaries are concerned, well, they > are there to be perused, considered, and appreciated, > but not to be put at the same level as the word of the > Buddha. ------------ They are what the Theras believed to be the meaning of the word of the Buddha. Maybe they are not to be put on the same level as the actual word. Even so, they deserve a much higher level than any contrary opinions held by us, don't you agree? Kind regards, Ken H 24624 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Dear Larry, op 26-08-2003 08:10 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > How would you translate patisambhida N: It is translated as discriminative knowledge or analytical knowledge. P.E.D. More important to understand what they mean. Nina. 24625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Jakarta Dear Sarah op 26-08-2003 13:51 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I think I recall her having to > entertain the Dutch queen who was visiting, (probably in the early 80s, > Nina, when we were living in Austalia?? I'm trying to recall what you > wrote from there - perhaps it was the beginning of Survey in another > series?). Princess Juliana (former queen) and Prince Bernhard made a journey in Indonesia and I had to accompany them, Lodewijk was in the Hgue for an important IGGI meeting. In '82. Not easy to be alone, helping to ease conflicting situations among members of the suite. I wrote Letters from Jakarta, but never on computer. They are among my collection of letters which is with Pinna. Not Survey, that is A. Sujin's work. P.S. I hope Sese will also contact the Bogor group, and then share the discussion over there with us. Nina. 24626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma dating. Dear Icaro, There are many posts on the subject of the dating of the Abhidhamma. I shall repost part of what Sarah wrote: see below. op 26-08-2003 15:13 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was > written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. > It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a > text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, > meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering > too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha > preaching. Nina quotes posts from Sarah: Nina: The word of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Vinaya as taught by him, consists of nine divisions which are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyåkaraùa, Gåthå, Udåna, Itivuttaka, Jåtaka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. See the ³Expositor², Atthasåliní, Introductory Discourse, 26. The teachings as compiled (not yet written) literature are thus enumerated in the scriptures as nine divisions, for example in the ³Middle Length Sayings² I, no. 22. (Majjhima Nikaya, you can find it in your down load.) Sutta, geyya, etc. are nine divisions (angas) of the Tipitaka, and of these: Veyyåkaraùa or ³Exposition² includes the Abhidhamma Piìaka, the suttas without verses, and the words of the Buddha which are not included in the other eight divisions. Post from Sarah: Also from Sarah: QUOTE ***** "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." "These passages clearly show that Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time because rules about it were laid down by Him. c)"Also in Middle Length Sayings 1, p.270.....Gosinga sal-wood.......Further dhamma...*....Mogallana is a talker on dhamma** Footnotes * "It is Abhidhamma and it is specifically stated in the Burmese Editions.... ** "Moggallana is called chief of those of psychic power, Ai,23. MA ii,256 explains that abhidhamma-men, having come to knowledge of subtle points, having increased their vision, can achieve a supermundane state’. Non-abhidhamma-men get muddled between ‘own doctrine’(sakavaada) and ‘other doctrine’ (paravaada)." d)"Again, at the time The Buddha returned to Sankassanagara from Tavatimsa, the realm of 33 gods, Sariputta, in Sariputta Sutta, unttered the following in praise of The Buddha: "Erst have I never seen Nor heard of one with voice So sweet as his who came From Tusita to teach." (Suttanipata verse No 955, transl by E.M. Hare, p.139) ...... "This verse is also found in Mahaniddesa (Sixth Synod, p.386), where there is a detailed commentary on it. The following is the commentary on the first line: "At the time The Buddha, after having resided for the period of Lent on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa, came down to Sankassanagara.......... "When Sariputta, based on the methods given by The Buddha, preached Abhidhamma to his pupils, The Buddha not only stated that He had expounded the Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa but also narrated this Sariputta Sutta to be left behind as evidence of having done so for the later generations. The Mahaniddesa was included in the Three Councils.> ***** Note:The Bahiranidana is the intro to the Co of the Vinaya by Buddhaghosa. You will have your hands full. I quote these passages because I find that there are many misunderstandings about the dating of the Abhidhamma. This subject comes up all the time, as you will see. And see this one from Sarah today: <“But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, sutta means the three baskets which the three Councils recited. ‘Accordance with sutta’ means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate]. ‘The word of a teacher’ means the commentary.> N: Thus three Baskets, not two. Abhidhamma is included. Nina. 24627 From: Elias Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: desire for sex hello nori, be not embarassed, in daily wordly life, people are embarrassed of thigns related to sex because, they have made em to something they are not. If your mind is stable you canr eflect over sex, if it's not stable, it's a chance you will see in delusion. Ex, let's reflect over anal sex, if we experience to go to the toilet and 'do a poo', it's not so pelasure and attractive is it? mostly anything related to rectum, anus is disgusting. But anal sex, we become blindly, why? because the desire, pleasure is so much bigger then the view of reality. so sex is driven by desire. reflect over peeing, how nice is that? atractive, ? but when vaginal sex is reflected/experienced, suddenly it's not disgusting anymore, because desire, it makes you blind. Physical sex for desire is triggered by desluion, ignorance, abd an unstable mind. and leads into a physical chemical reaction. As for the mornings, under the sleep, the midn have wandered so much, because there's no controll over it, to dream is not to clear ones mind, the mind goes insane, really wild. it goes here and here, the past, all dreams have something to do with the past, there may be a person from the past in the dream ex, so when you lay down for sleep the midnfullness get lost, because you sleep, and it goes wild. i've read the buddha did even have a stable mind during sleep. so it's natural to wake up with sexual desire, it sems sexual desire is triggered actually with ignorance and delusion. and un unminfullness mind. if the midn is mindfull and wise, no chance sex can hit your mind and change it's pattern. as for masturbating, no, i living a laylife this is not wrong, but for a monk it's a rule to no have any way of sex. if you do amsturbate, often or unoften, just when it hit you for masturbating, now try to go out from it, try to sneak out, to restrain yourself from doing it. it will seem rather impossible because the desire is so strong. there may be masturbating without any pictures in the mind of naked human beings, but the desire for the pleasure is still there. so, no mastubating is not considered wrong conduct. but, ex, if looking on anothers wife and masturbating, this would maybe be wrong conduct, or looking on adultary porn? /elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi elias (and anyone with information), > > ...since somebody brought this up (I was embarrassed to ask): > > Is the physical desire for sex really triggered by thoughts ? > > Or is it just a natural physical chemical reaction ? > > Sometimes I just wake up in the morning with the feeling of sexual > desire before any thoughts of it. > > How is this avoided ? Is this bad ? > > ...and by the way is masturbation considered wrong conduct ? > > > > with metta, > > nori > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" > wrote: > > All, > > > > If the mind is mindfull there's no chance that thoughts about sex, > > fantasies about sex, fantasies about selfsex (masturbating), > ...snip 24628 From: robmoult Date: Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: desire for sex Hi All, Somebody asked me this off-list, so I thought I would reply here (with extracts from Bhikkhu Bodhi). The Buddha was very explicit for monks. According to the Vinaya: Should any bhikkhu - participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness - engage in the sexual act, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in communion. In other words, if a monk has sex, he must disrobe and may not become a monk again. This is called a parajika offence. Intentional discharge of semen, except while dreaming, entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. In other words, if a monk masturbates, he must first admit it in front of the elder monks and then be "on probation" for a period after which he can be reinstated. While "under probation", the monk cannot give dhamma talks and must be accompanied by another monk when he leaves the monastery. This is a called a sanghadisesa offence. The Vinaya texts give many case studies of what does and what does not constitute an infraction of the rule. The Buddha did not lay down so many rules for laypeople. The basic set of rules for laypeople are the five precepts. The third precept is abstinence from sexual misconduct (Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami). The word "kama" means "sense pleasure" or "sensual desire", but the commentaries explain it as sexual relations. "Micchacara" means wrong modes of conduct. For men, the text lists twenty types of women who are illicit partners. These can be grouped into three categories: - A woman under the protection of elders or other authorities charged with her care (a girl being cared for by parents, by an older brother or sister, by other relatives) - A woman who is prohibited by convention (nuns and other women vowed to observe celibacy as a spiritual discipline and those forbidden as partners under the law of the land) - A woman who is married or engaged to another man, even one bound to another man only by a temporary agreement In the case of women, for those who are married any man other than a husband is an illicit partner. A man forbidden by tradition or under religious rules is prohibited as a partner. For both men and women, any violent, forced or coercive union, whether by physical compulsion or psychological pressure, can be regarded as a transgression of the precept even when the partner is not otherwise illicit. A man or woman who is widowed or divorced can freely remarry according to choice. Required factors to constitute a violation of the precept: - An illicit partner as described above - Thought, intention or volition of engaging in sexual misconduct - Appropriate effort (act of engaging in union... I guess that Bill Clinton did not technically break this precept with Monica Lewinski) - The acceptance of the union (a rape victim has not violated the precept, but the rapist has) The degree of moral gravity involved in the offense is determined by the force of the lust motivating the action and the qualities of the person against whom the transgression is committed. The most serious violations are incest and the rape of an Arahant (or Arahatess). The underlying root is always greed. Beyond the five precepts, Buddhism offers a higher code of moral discipline for the laity consisting of eight precepts (Atthasila). This code of eight precepts is not entirely different in content from the fivefold code, but includes the five precepts with a significant revision in the third precept, where abstaining from sexual misconduct is changed to abstaining from incelibacy. The third precept of the eightfold set thus reads: Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from incelibacy." To these basic five three further precepts are added: - Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from eating beyond the time limit," i.e., from mid-day to the following dawn. - Nacca gita vadita visukhadassana-mala gandha vilepana dharanamandana vibhusanatthana veramani sikkhapadam samamadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from dancing, singing, instrumental music, unsuitable shows, and from wearing garlands, using scents, and beautifying the body with cosmetics." - Uccasayana mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami, "I undertake the training rule to abstain from high and luxurious beds and seats." Permanent observance of the eight precepts is sometimes undertaken by older people who, having completed their family duties, wish to deepen their spiritual development by devoting the later years of their life to intensified spiritual practice. Temporary observance is usually undertaken by lay people either on Uposatha days or on occasions of a meditation retreat. Uposatha days are the new moon and full moon days of the lunar month, which are set aside for special religious observances, a going back even into the pre-Buddhistic period of Indian history. On these days lay people in Buddhist countries often take the eight precepts, especially when they go to spend the Uposatha at a temple or monastery. On these occasions the undertaking of the eight precepts lasts for a day and a night. On occasions of retreat, lay people take the eight precepts for the duration of their retreat. The five precepts and the eight precepts have a different focus. The focus of the five precepts is to put a brake on immoral actions (actions that are directly or indirectly harmful to others) and the associated kammic results. The focus of the eight precepts is more spiritual than ethical. The eight precepts act as a basis for achieving higher states of realization through the practice of meditation. The eight precepts represent the transition from sila as a purely moral undertaking to sila as a way of ascetic self-training aimed at progress along the path to liberation. With the eight precepts, the ethical code takes a pronounced turn towards the control of desires which are not socially harmful and immoral. This extension of the training focuses upon desires centering around the physical body and its concerns. The change of the third precept to abstinence from incelibacy curbs the sexual urge, regarded in itself not as a moral evil but as a powerful expression of craving that has to be held in check to advance to the higher levels of meditation. The three new precepts regulate concern with food, entertainment, self- beautification and physical comfort. Their observance nurtures the growth of qualities essential to the deeper spiritual life -- contentment, fewness of wishes, modesty, austerity, renunciation. As these qualities mature the defilements are weakened, aiding the attainment of insight. To my knowledge, there are no references in the texts to masturbation for laypeople. My guess is that it would not be breaking any of the five precepts but should be avoided by those undertaking the eight precepts. Metta, Rob M :-) 24629 From: norakat147 Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 0:41am Subject: Re: desire for sex hi Elias, Elias wrote: > Physical sex for desire is triggered by desluion, ignorance, > abd an unstable mind. and leads into a physical chemical reaction. > sexual desire is triggered > actually with ignorance and delusion. and un unminfullness mind. > if the midn is mindfull and wise, no chance sex can hit your mind > and change it's pattern. But is it not the case that the feeling/chemical reaction comes before the thought ? When I was a very young kid going into puberty, I remember having "feelings" 'down there' without really thinking of or visualizing a human, naked human, vagina or anything else. And so, if this feeling arises independent of thought, before any thoughts regarding it, how is one to "sneak out, to restrain yourself from doing it" ? ... not that I have a problem with masturbation ... man, this is embarrassing. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Elias" wrote: > hello nori, > be not embarassed, in daily wordly life, > people are embarrassed of thigns related to sex because, > they have made em to something they are not. > > If your mind is stable you canr eflect over sex, > if it's not stable, it's a chance you will see in delusion. > > Ex, let's reflect over anal sex, > if we experience to go to the toilet and 'do a poo', snip ... 24630 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: desire for sex Hello Nori,Elias and all, I also wonder about this ... I have the need to breathe before I think of oxygen, I feel hungry before I think of food, I feel thirsty before I think of water, I feel tired before I think of sleep. Why are sexual feelings any different? I think they are a basic inbuilt requirement of the genes to ensure their reproduction and continuity - they need the organism to be involved in breathing, eating, drinking and sleeping. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" 24631 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:48am Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sukin, Thanks so much for writing - I've been meaning to respond but got distracted on other threads.... --- Sukinderpal wrote: > I understand that it is in the nature of language itself, and I am not > talking about how > others handle this. I am more concerned about how it influences my own > attempt to > understand Buddha's teachings. The thing is, I am wondering if I am > being limited > by terms such as anatta, anicca etc.,.... ..... Just a little more on this. I think it is helpful to reflect about whether we use these terms out of convenience or whether there is really any understanding of them. For this, I find it very helpful to be questioned and challenged as we are here by those who may use the same terms but with a very different understanding. Sometimes we may use terminology as a kind of shorthand to communicate together, but if we’re speaking to someone from another background or orientation, it’s far more helpful to try to find the words that make sense to them. In the end, though, however the truths are expressed, there will be limits to what we and others can appreciate. For some, the wish for all religions or philosophies to point to the same goal is so strong that at a certain point it’s hard to really accept the Buddha’s teachings. Also, I think that if one really wishes to understanding the truths, it’s impossible to avoid some basic terminology such as nama and rupa because the sense from English translations tends to just confuse rather than clarify. Some other teachers do a wonderful job of using simple language and avoiding all Buddhist/Pali terminology. But at a certain point I find it’s limited, especially when it comes to clarifying precisely the nature of the phenomena to be known and the depth necessary for an understanding of anatta. ..... >This is why I asked Sarah about her own > experience > knowing that she is quite beyond this obstacle (if indeed it is), and > wanted to find out > if the teachings themselves had a way to self-check any such > limitations. Anyway, > now I think this is all a result of confusion, too much thinking :-). .... No ‘Sarah’ to be ‘beyond’ anything, remember...;-) I think the ‘self-check’ is in the development of panna. So as you say, even at these moments of wondering and thinking, there can be awareness of the confusion or thinking and that momentary awareness and any understanding with it is more useful than any particular conclusion that might be reached. It always comes back to now and the reality at this moment, however much the thinking may think otherwise;-) .... The true dhamma > as heard > here on dsg, is not so much Buddhist concepts, but the reminder about > what is real, > that can be known directly. Besides one is asked again and again to not > mistake > concept for reality. So anatta, anicca, dukkha are not just ideas to use > as convenient, > but to be insighted. Before that happens, we will still "think" these > concepts with the > limited understanding that we have, but the best reminder is that even > such thinking > is 'conditioned'. .... You express it all very well and I’ve (reluctantly) snipped your other wise comments too, Sukin. .... > I am in the right place, and I think I should write more often ;-). > There are so many > people here who can help me to straighten my views. Thank you Nina, > Sarah, Mike > and everyone else, for the excellent dhamma you share here. It is indeed > a blessing > to be a member of dsg and to know personally many of you. :-) .... I’m sure we all feel the same about your writing and the assistance you give us too. We all need lots of reminders and lots of straightening out from as many sources as possible;-) Many thanks for your kind comments... it’s a blessing to have friends like yourself and we’re always glad when we see your name appear. What have you been discussing or raising in your Sat afternoon sessions with Khun Sujin recently? How does the dhamma help you with family and business difficulties and uncertainties, Sukin? Keen to hear more from you with some daily life examples and I know Nina would like this too;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24632 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Htoo and Nina, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! > > Dhamma has its own characteristics. It is its own nature. Nature is > nature. Nature governs by its own laws. When these laws can be > realized, everything can be realized. .... Htoo, I'm so glad to see you're still following and appreciating these posts. I'm sure if you have any answers to the questions on the Vism thread or if you can give any input of the Pali anytime by way of clarification, we'd all be glad to hear from you. Nina, I think 'distinct nature' as you gave for a translation of sabhava is very apt. 'Individual essence' tends to give people an idea of self as often discussed here. Metta, Sarah ====== 24633 From: Elias Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: desire for sex hello, all well, if you try to abstain from sex and generate wisdom, what the human body is etc. anatta.ex a feeling of 'going beyond the existend' will arise. i'm a real hurry now, i've to go, i'm in school. i will try to answer later. /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori,Elias and all, > > I also wonder about this ... I have the need to breathe before I > think of oxygen, I feel hungry before I think of food, I feel thirsty > before I think of water, I feel tired before I think of sleep. Why > are sexual feelings any different? I think they are a basic inbuilt > requirement of the genes to ensure their reproduction and continuity - > they need the organism to be involved in breathing, eating, > drinking and sleeping. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" 24634 From: Elias Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: desire for sex hello, what you mention might be the 'grow up' of the body. as you might have noticed you do nto feel sexual attraction from exanimals. because you're a human. I think ther emay acctually be human beings who have in a way made the mind find attraction in animals. anyway, that's not eh subject. well there have been many experiments. ex i've heard from a monk, who used to work with science before he become a monk. he told that there were several persons, for tests. each person got the instruments put on there heads, ex so the researcher could see the brain stumals ex. so then the people that did the test would the verius things, ex lift a spoon. what the experiment showed, that first there were a signal in the brain, then the person did choose to pick up the spoon. so it were triggered before the person did have the intention to do it. this shows ways of anatta. we are born in a world of desire, if there were no womans, men would probably still use a way fo selfsex (masturbating) for pleasure. If a parent ex find their childs to have selfsex, the parents might get confused and very angry, and tell the children to not do it again. but it's not soeasy, because the desire is very strong for pleasure. it's not to say "i wills top do it". it will not stop it. but it's a start. a decision. i've to go now /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > hi Elias, > But is it not the case that the feeling/chemical reaction comes > before the thought ? > > When I was a very young kid going into puberty, I remember > having "feelings" 'down there' without really thinking of or > visualizing a human, naked human, vagina or anything else. > > And so, if this feeling arises independent of thought, before any > thoughts regarding it, how is one to "sneak out, to restrain yourself > from doing it" ? > 24635 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Rob! Rob: "Please send your snail mail address to my email > address and let me > know what kind of music / chanting you would like." ------------------------------------------------------ I am interested! Have you got the Guhyasamaja Tantra, chanted by The Tibetan Gyuto Monks ? What devotional buddistics CDs have you to share ? I am interested also in the Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" > > wrote: > > Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd > burner, but I would > be > > more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I > listed for > > Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional > chants, or > whatever > > you could make time for. It would be much > appreciated as I can > only > > locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. > ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24636 From: nichiconn Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: bathtub musings Dear Christine, After everyone else had gone to bed tonight, (was it my guitar playing?) I picked up ADL and opened it to the story of the lute where the men say "That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind and the rajah says, "A poor thing is what you call a lute, a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray." May be chanting/singing is like that. Still, I was thinking earlier tonight that I'd like to listen to the Metta again when I get home. I like it when I recognize words without reading them. I think with the singing-chanting, there may be a lot of wrapping self in voice or making how something is said more important than the meaning? Dancing dhamma? peace, connie 24637 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi Nori: Nori:" I could tell you why Buddhism has no songs or hymns. > > The Buddha was quite against music." ---------------------------------------------------- That sounds strange, since many Suttas on Theravada are at verse, with musical metres too - I can recommend Winkner´s studies on Sanskrit and about Sandhi: the fine art to aggregate words in a bigger one, changing some letters to raise euphonic effects! At Mahayana, all Suttas are chanted by monks. ----------------------------------------------------- > Digha Nikaya 11 > Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta > > "He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental > music, and from > watching shows." > ...also from monastic code (access to insight): ------------------------------------------------------ All these rules are for ones who attained Bhikkhu´s vows officialy - music and dancing can be viewed as a hindrance of Satipatthana... but at other side there´s no eternal truth in all questions - all is impermanence. The Mahamangala Sutta is usually chanted even by Theravada Bhikkhus! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24638 From: robmoult Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > I am interested! > Have you got the Guhyasamaja Tantra, chanted by The > Tibetan Gyuto Monks ? > What devotional buddistics CDs have you to share ? > I am interested also in the Prajnaparamita Hridaya > Sutra. Oops, you are a few hours late. I went to the bookstore at lunch time and it is now dinner. I picked up a Metta Sutta CD (one of my favourites) for Christine and one for Jeff. Tomorrow I am flying to Singapore and then to HK next week. I am not sure when I will be able to get back to the bookstore to check if they have the titles that you are looking for. Though this bookstore tends to specialize in Theravada, there are some Vajarana and Mahayana CDs / tapes as well. I will let you know. Metta, Rob M :-) 24639 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma dating. Dear Nina: Nina: " There are many posts on the subject of the dating of > the Abhidhamma. > I shall repost part of what Sarah wrote: see below." -------------------------------------------------- I am looking forward the Xmas´gift of Robmoult!!! So I will put some Niyaama on my notes and bookmarks! ----------------------------------------------------- Nina: "You will have your hands full. I quote these > passages because I find that > there are many misunderstandings about the dating of > the Abhidhamma. This > subject comes up all the time, as you will see." ------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina,at the present moment I am with hands full only with gym weights, bars, halters... preparing myself spiritually to the Boot Camp. All my class will meet the instructors September 10 to fit the last detalis! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24640 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Rob! Rob:" Oops, you are a few hours late. I went to the > bookstore at lunch > time and it is now dinner. I picked up a Metta Sutta > CD (one of my > favourites) for Christine and one for Jeff. Tomorrow > I am flying to > Singapore and then to HK next week. I am not sure > when I will be > able to get back to the bookstore to check if they > have the titles > that you are looking for. Though this bookstore > tends to specialize > in Theravada, there are some Vajarana and Mahayana > CDs / tapes as > well. I will let you know." ----------------------------------------------- GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You see, Sarah... Santa Claus exists!!! He´s called Robmoult !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am looking forward your info about Cds, Rob !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Mettaya ( Mettaya...mettaya...mettaya...), Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24641 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry & Nina, Sorry to be quiet on this thread.... it’s a lot trickier than I imagined;-) This is an example: ~Nanamoli, Vism VIII, n. 68: The individual essence of any formed dhammais manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, arising, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. “XXIII n.18: The subtleties of the word "nipphanna" are best cleared up by quoting a paragraph from the Sammohavinodani (VbhA.29) ***** Larry’s questions: L: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned." Why only "some concepts"? ***** S: I’ve read the Vism note carefully, checked the Sammohavinodani and so on and I can only say ‘very good question’ and I think it must be a mistake. All concepts are asabhaava and some realities such as space. Time is a concept as I understand. L: 3. If carriages and persons are perceived to be impermanent then why are they not sabhaava-dhammas? S: Because, to quote back from n18: “ A dhamma that is an individual essence with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three characteristics, is "positively produced". But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name ....” In other words, carriages and persons are not marked by the ri-lakkhana, are not conditioned, are not marked by the phases of arising, existing and ceasing and have no sabhaava. They are ‘produced’ or conceived by thinking only. ***** --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: Positively produced etc. I have doubts about this translation, I would have to know the Pali. All these notes are very complicated. I read in Vis. XXIII, 52: it is not sabhaava. And not classifiable as conditioned or unconditioned, mundane or supramundane.< .... S: Very difficult as you say. That’s why I’m not able to make much of a contribution. Let me try to understand this: Smv 127 “ Also the five aggregates are projected (parinipphana) only, not unprojected; they are formed (sa’nkhata) only, not unformed; moreover they are produced (nipphanna) too. For among the states that have individual essence (sabhaavadhamma) nibbaana alone is unprojected and unproduced. But how about the attainment of cessation (nirodhasamaapatti) and the concept of a name (naamapa~n~natti)? the attainment of cessation is not to be called ‘mundane or supramundane’ or ‘formed or unformed’ or ‘projected or unprojected’, but it is produced because it is to be attained by one who attains it. Likewise the concept of a name: for that also is not classed as ‘mundane’ etc, but it is produced, not unproduced; for it is only by taking that one takes a name.” ***** To summarise: parinipphanna (projected or directly knowable ) = only conditioned paramattha dhammas nipphanna (produced or experienced ) = paramattha dhammas and concepts and nirodhasamaapatti* NB nibbana is not parinipphanna or nipphanna. * see quote ***** I think I understand a little more. Larry, keep up your good work - you’re doing a great job. I was very relieved to find your break was only because you were talking to yourself for a couple of days;-) Nina, with great appreciation and please let me know if I confuse further with any errors. Metta, Sarah ====== 24642 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/26/03 10:55:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You were saying: > --------------- > > Generally speaking, I accept with little > >questioning, but with constant consideration for > >purposes of understanding, what appears to have come > >directly from the Buddha. I truly do not know whether > >this includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka or not, > > > . . . . > > > > At this point, I have to depend on synopses, > > >commentaries (mostly reports of commentaries), and > >characterizations, some of which material rings true to > >me and some of which, from my observation, contradicts > >basic teachings given in the Sutta Pitaka. > ------------- > > Which contradictions do you have in mind? The > controversial areas that I'm aware of seem to involve > personal preferences rather than contradictions. For > example, I would prefer that the suttas didn't acquiesce > in slavery and the subordination of women. Furthermore, I > don't like the assumption that gods and demons play a > role in the human world (influencing the weather, for > example). Nor am I entirely happy about the heart being > the organ of the mind (as asserted in the commentaries). > > But these things are no impediment when considered in > light of the whole Tipitaka. For example, we read that a > dutiful wife treats her parents-in-law as if they were > gods. We might have trouble with that outmoded notion but > we have also been taught that living beings and cultural > practices are not real, they are conventional > designations. So we understand the example as a > conventional explanation of kusala citta with metta. And > there is no problem. > > I think we should learn what is in the texts. Once we > start to strike out troublesome parts, we are on a long > and slippery slope: we have begun to rewrite the whole > Theravada tradition. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There have been things I've come across from time to time that seem to be at least "additions" - the notions of bhavanga cittas and the very momentariness of cittas are concepts that don't occur in the sutta pitaka, and there are others that I haven't committed to memory - but what I had in mind here was quite specifically the notion of pa~n~natti as unconditioned and permanent. That is objectionable and contrary to the Dhamma. There is but one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, and all other dhammas are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfying, and not-self. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------------- > >But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my meaning > >of that word, then concepts are conditioned mind-door > >objects, and are not special except for their > >usefulness and their perils. > --------------- > > But which conditioned object could they be? Vitakka? Vicara? > Unlikely; I don't see how a thought could be the same as > "thought conception" or "discursive thinking." That would > be like saying that a cake is the same as 'mixing' or 'baking.' > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thoughts are thoughts - particular kinds of mind-door objects. Some affective mind-door objects are feelings, urges, emotions,etc, whereas concept-thoughts are cognitive instead of affective. When I "see" my coffee cup in front of me, part of what is going on is the (culminating) wordless recognition of the mental object or percept we call "a coffee cup". That mind-object is the object of an act of mano-vi~n~ana; it is an object that not only appears through the mind-door, being grasped by a mind-door citta, but it is also mind-constructed, the culmination of a complex sankharic process. The coffee-cup percept exists *only* as a mind-door object, the alleged coffee cup "out there" being imagined/presupposed/presumed, but never observed. Ultimately it is false (better: meaningless) to say the coffee cup arises, changes, and ceases, and it is also meaningless to say that it does not, because there IS NO coffee cup at all except conventionally, in a manner of speaking but not actually. Perhaps it is nonexistent entities such as that "coffee cup" that you have in mind when you say "concept/pa~n~natti". If so, then we are not basically at odds on the issue. There simply are no pa~n~natti at all in this case. We may speak as if there are, but that is mere facon de parler. --------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > > I do not believe that what a microbe or a > >hungry ghost will find pleasant/unpleasant is the same > >as what a human finds pleasant/unpleasant. > ------------------- > > What I was referring to was not what is 'found to be' > pleasant, but what 'is' pleasant. The objects of kusala > vipaka-citta and akusala vipaka-citta are inherently > pleasant and unpleasant respectively. As properties of > sense objects, 'pleasant' and 'unpleasant' are absolute: > they are not influenced by how those sense objects are > perceived. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken I don't disagree with that. Pleasantness presumably is pleasantness - period. But that is *not* what we were discussing. We were discussing exactly whether or not pleasantness resides intrinsically in the experienced object. My answer about microbes and hungry ghosts was in response to your having written the following: > If, [to dredge up another example], they say > that rupa arammana are inherently pleasant or unpleasant > then, again, why be inclined to think otherwise? What I wrote elsewhere in this regard is that what is pus to us may be nectar to other creatures. ------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > >If I'm incorrect, so what? This issue is a very > >small one, of little import > -------------- > > I think the important thing is that we ascertain what is > in the Tipitaka. Only then, can it be proved or disproved > by experience. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, we do need to ascertain what is in the Tipitaka. ------------------------------------------------ > > --------- > > > . . . > > > >As far as commentaries are concerned, well, they > >are there to be perused, considered, and appreciated, > >but not to be put at the same level as the word of the > >Buddha. > ------------ > > They are what the Theras believed to be the meaning of > the word of the Buddha. Maybe they are not to be put on > the same level as the actual word. Even so, they deserve > a much higher level than any contrary opinions held by > us, don't you agree? > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do believe that they are to be accorded enormous respect, deserving of careful analysis. I do not believe they should ever serve as carte blanche substitutes for our own minds. The Buddha said the same even with regard to his OWN teachings. -------------------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24643 From: Sarah Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg]books PTS Hi Icaro, --- icaro franca wrote: > Hi Sarah ! > > --- Sarah " Let me add my bit too.... > > > “In essence (...)Patthana is the > > teaching of anatta.” > --------------------------------------------------- > > Up the Irons! > Exact! ..... ;-) ..... > But all this can be a very pretty effott to > translate... I am only at the beginninng of the > Paccayas´description: I have got the opinion that such > detailed reasonings about anatta came forth after many > dialogs with Mahavir´s disciples, that preached the > existence of Self with strong arguments! .... Not only Mahavir’s disciples but all of us do so without the Buddha’s teachings. Of course, sometimes we may not realise the extent to which we are still clinging to the idea of self. Imho. TG expressed it very well here: ***** TG “Do "reactions" influence other things? Yes they do. If dominos are set up so that they will form a chain reaction of toppling into each other; a domino in the middle of that chain is reacting to the domino that hits it and influencing the one that it hits. But it is not in any kind of control. The words "control" and "influence" are not interchangeable. The notion of control is not supportable by an argument about influence. To think in terms that there is "control" but not "absolute control" as akin to those who think there is a temporary self but not an absolute self. Both ideas have not purged the idea of self. (Although the "control" idea is more subtly affected by self-view.) I agree with Ken O. Any notion of control has to include the notion of self. Therefore, in actuality, neither exist...i.e., self or control.” ***** > Put buddhism in a nutshell is not so simple as it > seems! > Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was > written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. .... Nina has fortunately addressed this point;-) ;-) See ‘Abhidhamma: its origins’ in UP for more: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... > It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a > text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, > meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering > too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha > preaching. > The Dhammasangani and the huge Patthana are magnus > opus of all humanity!!!!! .... I think you’re going to single-handedly ensure the sasana lasts an extra millenium or two, Icaro;-) .... > I will do it. Fortunately I´ve download ALL the > Pali Tipitaka of www.tipitaka.org... and source texts > will be always available! I will try also burn a CD > with that material...but it belongs to the future! .... I’m sure that when you and RobM do your CD burning together, miraculously out of the ashes will come a version that Nina and I can read with a simple click;-) .... > That´s fine, Sarah. No problem! > (Trimming as good as possible, Sarah!) ..... Thx for announcing to all that there are no Patthana Pets on DSG when it comes to the cracking of the whip as far as trimming is concerned;-) Ok, I’ll test out a new signature which you may like to adopt for a change, Icaro;-) Metta, Sarah Seize the time to trim, Spare the Mods a spin, Win, Win, Win, Muito Obrigado =============== 24644 From: robmoult Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > I am looking forward your info about Cds, Rob Silly me. I forgot about this innovative new technology called "telephone" that allows me to check what is available without visting the bookstore. As it turns out, the store does have the Prajnaparamita Hridaya Sutra (in Sanskrit, of course) but it does not have much Tibetan stuff. Do you want a CD or cassette? Metta, Rob M:-) 24645 From: Elias Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:12am Subject: Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori,Elias and all, > > I also wonder about this ... I have the need to breathe before I > think of oxygen, I feel hungry before I think of food, I feel thirsty > before I think of water, I feel tired before I think of sleep. Why > are sexual feelings any different? I think they are a basic inbuilt > requirement of the genes to ensure their reproduction and continuity - > they need the organism to be involved in breathing, eating, > drinking and sleeping. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" Hello Christine, Nori, and all As for food, you can give it up. You may have the will-power to give up eating food, to penetrate and give up the desire for taste pleasure. Also for drinking, you can give up drinking when you feel thirsty, you can penantrate and give up the disre for thirst. If they were inbuilt and if you were the human being, there would probably not be a way that acctually can give up these 'inbuilt' things. You would think whatever happens the eating, drinking, and sexwould be so much important because they make you live and make other human body into nature. As for breath it happens automaticly, but we are not often aware of it, acctually almost never aware of it, untill we begin to meditate. When thoughs about to give up sex arise it's aversion in the mind, it seems not good, not necesery etc. because it's such a pleasure. Even thoughs about to give up nibbana, also may aversion arise, because we have so much desire for it. I did not mean to change subject to 'desire for nibbana', but i will write some short about it, because it's very simply to describe. if you ex. goes to a park, to come to that park, you had to have desire, you have to had plans, what way to go etc, you might have going on a certain time, etc. when you are in the park, there's no desire to be in the park anymore. We are very 'human' aren't we, we mostly find that ourself are most important, that eating and drinking is very important, and that sex is the highest pleasure, therefore we strive for it, it's like a trigger inside human beings, what if sex did not be pleasure, there would probably not be any human beings born. The human is very egoistic, babies are born because egoism, desire. partners are picked by desire, egoism. mostly everythign we do is because egoism and/or desire. We need to not follow the stream, to stand up in the river and say 'hey, what if i were to swim in the other direction?'. When we do practice the path, we will definitely feel feelings as 'ouside the human realm, as going behind/beyond the existence'. and this would probably not be possible if we were the human being. please ad comments or if I say something that seems absolutly incorrect, please tell my. All i can tell is some small experiences, and mostly theories based on these experiences. /Elias 24646 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Great Robmoult !!!!! robmoult "As it turns out, the store does have the > Prajnaparamita Hridaya > Sutra (in Sanskrit, of course) but it does not have > much Tibetan > stuff. > > Do you want a CD or cassette? ----------------------------------------------------- Both! You can put in the packet a bunch of Theravada Suttas as the Mahamangala, chanted by legitimate Theravada Bhikkhus. How many Cds/cassetes will be ? If you manage to alocate everything in one single Cd or cassette tape, the best! International postage has some fees and etc: any further expenses with such naiveté of mine you can put on my account. Since my boot camp and military training will last next January, could you send me this gracious gift of yours at February ? Rob, I´ve got some material here: - A CD of the Tibetan Monks of Gaden Sharste, - The Mantra of 21 Taras, - a CD of Sanskrit Classical Mantras, chanted by disciples of my Yoga Master, Mr.De Rose. If you are interested, express yourself!!! With Metta, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24647 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Lt. Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:41 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > All these rules are for ones who attained Bhikkhu´s > vows officialy - music and dancing can be viewed as a > hindrance of Satipatthana... No, really?! To jhaana, surely, but satipa.t.thaana?! Ready for boot camp, Sir? mike 24648 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Hi Sarah (and Sukin), ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 1:48 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** >> The thing is, I am wondering if I am > > being limited > > by terms such as anatta, anicca etc.,.... > ..... > Just a little more on this. I think it is helpful to reflect about whether > we use these terms out of convenience or whether there is really any > understanding of them. For this, I find it very helpful to be questioned > and challenged as we are here by those who may use the same terms but with > a very different understanding. Sometimes we may use terminology as a kind > of shorthand to communicate together, but if we're speaking to someone > from another background or orientation, it's far more helpful to try to > find the words that make sense to them. Even the paali words have different meanings in different contexts and at different levels of understanding, I think(?) As we were discussing 'asubha' recently, I came to the conclusion that the asubha that arises and subsides instantaneously with pa~n~naa is very different from the conventional meaning of 'disgust'. So it seems to me that paali vohaara-vacana (conventional expression) is far more specific than English and that paali paramattha-vacana (ultimate expression) is far more specific than paali vohaara-vacana. So a continual refining or focussing, I think. As Sarah says, though, it depends on the hearer which is more useful. > In the end, though, however the truths are expressed, there will be limits > to what we and others can appreciate. For some, the wish for all religions > or philosophies to point to the same goal is so strong that at a certain > point it's hard to really accept the Buddha's teachings. I agree, Sarah, and it seems to me that this view depends on generalities and equivocation--it doesn't stand up to detailed analysis. I think this accounts for a lot of hostility toward the abhidhamma (and often even paali study). > Also, I think > that if one really wishes to understanding the truths, it's impossible to > avoid some basic terminology such as nama and rupa because the sense from > English translations tends to just confuse rather than clarify. Yes, and often for the same reasons as above, I think--easier to fit 'name and form', e.g., into a very vague and generalized view than to understand how unique the real meanings are to Buddhahamma. Enough fuzzy thinking, Mike. mike 24649 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:08am Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Jim, Sara, Christine, and all How are you? The Pali term that occurred to me when I first read Jim's plans to go off-line and hibernate was nikkhama paaramiitaa undertaken without ordination for a short period of time. Jim's plans sound to me physical distancing from usual busy engagements. Even though nikkhama paaramiitaa is best fulfilled as an ordained bhikkhu or as a ten-precept Theravada nun or as a Mahayana bhikkhuni (like in the case of a controversial Thai female professor did with the help of Taiwanese Mahayana bhikkhunis), lay people like us can also fulfil it in many forms if in limited capacities. All forms of nikkhama are designed to free ourselves from the usual obligations of social, societal and interpersonal engagements. Ironically, the question an aspirant nikkhama seeker needs to ask oneself is how to fund this luxury of disengagement in a western acquisitive materialistic society like Australia. It appears that only rich people can afford nikkhama paaramiitaa, the luxury of disengagement, - the societal disengagement in particular. Everyone in a western society like Australia is conditioned to fulfil the obligations of societal engagements to live. Societal disengagement means beginning with deprivation of livelihood leading to unprotected homelessness and untimely ending with death - yes, in the rich First World. Thus, unless you have already amassed funds for living expenses to last for the rest of your life, nikkhama paaramiitaa at the level of complete societal disengagement cannot be fulfilled. The good news is, though, that nikkhama paaramiitaa at the levels of social and interpersonal disengagement can be fulfilled if the aspirant nikkhama seeker has been practicing mental cultivation with samatha and vipassanaa to an infallible stage. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 24650 From: christhedis Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Thanks Howard, I don't think I was assuming that the Mahasi technique directly equals Mindfulness, just that this technique seems to me to obviously explicitly cultivate Mindfulness, in that the meditator is aware of rising, falling, sitting, walking, intending to turn, etc. etc. In contrast, the Goenka technique of examining bodily sensations doesn't (as far as I can see) explicitly cultivate Mindfulness. But what you are saying is that the Goenka method will also lead to Mindfulness, just in its own way? Do any others in this group use the Goenka technique? Is it generally recognized as an established and effective technique? I get the impression that more people use the Mahasi technique. Thanks a lot... Chris. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > You seem to be assuming that the Mahasi labeling technique = > mindfulness. If so, I think you are mistaken. Mindfulness is a mental concomitant, > which arises during many mindstates, and is not peculiar to the Mahasi meditation > style. Mindfulnes is "simply" the mental operation of not getting mentally > lost, but rather of attending directly (not conceptually) to whatever arises at > the moment. It fosters and is fostered by concentration, and it works > hand-in-glove with so-called clear comprehension. The Goenka meditation on bodily > sensations is a "mindfulness practice". > > With metta, > Howard > 24651 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:23am Subject: Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Hi All, In a discussion on one of the Kaeng Kajan tapes, Nina was saying that some texts seem to suggest that clinging to [re]birth always arises with wrong view while elsewhere it's written that the sotaapanna can cling to jhaana and the result of jhaana. KS replied that there are two aspects of bhava-ta.nhaa, with sassata-di.t.thi and without sassata-di.t.thi. Could it be that the result of jhaana clung to by the sotaapanna is not rebirth but something else (e.g. a pleasant abiding here and now)? The sotaapanna, after all, can be quite attached to pleasant feeling. I'd also like to hear more about sassata-di.t.thi. In conventional speech I think this is usually taken just to refer to the eternalist view. In the context of abhidhamma, does this also refer to the view that anything lasts at all (beyond one kha.na)? We talk often about sakkaya-di.t.thi, but not often about sassata-di.t.thi (it took me a while even to figure out what KS was saying). A big jump, I think, between 'nothing lasts forever' and 'nothing lasts at all'--a big refinement, I think. Corrections? mike 24652 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Sarah, "Hey, Gayan, since when did a heartfelt pleading become an order;-) Just sometimes when members ask me to send metta to all other members, I suggest they might do it themselves;-)" Metta by proxy :o) "Gayan, I'm not quite sure what the 'break-even' is. Is it to perform more kusala than akusala kamma in a day or is it to reach the first stage of enlightenment? Glad for any enlightening..." oh, what I had in mind was.. since the faculties are unguarded lot of akusala kammas are happening, for example if I see a very salivating KFC advertisement in TV thats desire for taste right there happening in the mind... When I see the trailer for the movie 'seabiscuit', the instant desire arises there..all akusala (unskillfull) although they are not paapa (sin) so to break even , more kusala needed, so need to utilise all the skill one has. Applying metta, giving a right-out-of-the-pocket donation to a beggar etc.. although theres no way of measuring, I guess most of us people will have similar accumulations of kusala and akusala dusring a day. "I know you're not in Sri Lanka now, but I thought you (or maybe Sumane) might have an idea of anywhere Jim could contact there to help track down the old Pali grammars. If so, maybe you could let me or him know." Pardon my ignorance for not being very sure about what you/Jim are looking for, please see whether this link is helpful http://www.beyondthenet.net/bps/bps_main.htm its the buddhist publication society. also if you can inquire from ven mettavihari (metta@m... ) ( a danish monk living in sri lanka) it would be helpful. regards, gayan 24653 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different meditation techniques. Hi, Chris - In a message dated 8/27/03 10:13:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charnett@y... writes: > > Thanks Howard, > > I don't think I was assuming that the Mahasi technique directly equals > Mindfulness, just that this technique seems to me to obviously explicitly > cultivate Mindfulness, in that the meditator is aware of rising, falling, > sitting, walking, intending to turn, etc. etc. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: In my opinion, the Mahasi technique actually introduces conceptualization! The procedure of labeling, if not done just occasionally at early stages, is something I consider to be counterproductive with regard to cultivating mindfulness. But there is disagreement on that issue form various quarters. ---------------------------------------------------- In contrast, the Goenka > > technique of examining bodily sensations doesn't (as far as I can see) > explicitly cultivate Mindfulness. But what you are saying is that the > Goenka method will also lead to Mindfulness, just in its own way? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Any technique that nonjudgementally and nonreactively attends to whatever arises at the moment will cultivate mindfulness. In my opinion, the only limitation there is in the Goenka technique as a method of vipassana bhavana is that it is restricted to attending to bodily sensations. The Goenka people, however, say that other dhammas that arise will also be noticed and that, anyway, they are all reflected in bodily sensation. That is the claim. I cannot judge the validity of it. What I *can* tell you from first-hand experience is that the Goenka technique has been extremely beneficial to me. ------------------------------------------------ > > Do any others in this group use the Goenka technique? Is it generally > recognized as an established and effective technique? I get the > impression that more people use the Mahasi technique. > > Thanks a lot... > > Chris ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24654 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: " Lt. Icaro," ------------------------------------------------ Geeeez...!!! Modestus! Mike... modeste! --------------------------------------------- No, really?! To jhaana, surely, but > satipa.t.thaana?! ---------------------------------------------------- Yeah, Mike!!! As brazillians usually say: " A rapadura é doce...mas não é mole não!!!" -------------------------------------------------- Mike: "Ready for boot camp, Sir?" ----------------------------------------------- What such a paranoia of mine , Mike! I am standing up every day at 5 a.m. to make jogging and exercises... I hope, with this previous training, to make an average stand at boot camp without being a burden to my comrades! I am a perfectionist! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24655 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hello Airman Ic, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > --------------------------------------------- > No, really?! To jhaana, surely, but > > satipa.t.thaana?! > ---------------------------------------------------- > Yeah, Mike!!! > As brazillians usually say: " A rapadura é > doce...mas não é mole não!!!" Translation, please! Afraid I've mislaid my Portuguese dictionary... Thanks! mike 24656 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: " Translation, please! Afraid I've mislaid my > Portuguese dictionary..." ----------------------------------------------------- HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Rapadura" is a brazillian candy that is made with the brute sugar that comes immediately after the first refining of the sugar cane... it´s very, very hard to munch. Here in Brazil, at Northeast Region, it is selled at country fairs on blocks at the brick´s size... A loose translation - that doesn´t keep all the funny rhythm of the original: "Rapadura is sweet... but hard to eat" Bon appétit !!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24657 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] subco Visuddhimagga, no 7. Dear Larry, op 27-08-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Could we say, for example, the understanding by an insight knowledge of > the specific characteristic of hardness is understanding hardness as > impermanent, suffering, or not self? N: First the specific characteristics, visesa lakkhana, of nama and rupa are understood, by a beginning insight: the first two stages of tender insight (Vis. XX, 4). After that the penetration of the general charactertistics predominates. It makes sense. We know so little in the beginning: hardness is different from the experience of hardness. How could we begin with the understanding of arising and falling away if the specific characteristics are not clearly discerned? At the third stage of tender insight panna begins to realize arising and falling away, Comprehension by groups, as we discussed. After that there is the first stage of principal insight: the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. When we learn that a reality is just rupa, we begin to understand slightly that it is not self. I remember the late Ven. Dhammadharo saying: what is seen is rupa, not a thing, not a person. It is rupa, this means, not self. It is nama, this means, not self. Thus, a beginning understanding of phenomena as only nama and as only rupa is actually a beginning understanding of non-self, though it is still pariyatti, theoretical. Nina. 24658 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 0:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > "Rapadura" is a brazillian candy that is made with > the brute sugar that comes immediately after the first > refining of the sugar cane... it´s very, very hard to > munch. > Here in Brazil, at Northeast Region, it is selled > at country fairs on blocks at the brick´s size... > A loose translation - that doesn´t keep all the > funny rhythm of the original: > > "Rapadura is sweet... > but hard to eat" > > Bon appétit !!! Thanks man--but just to clarify, are you quite sure that 'music and dancing can be viewed as a hindrance of Satipatthana' (rather than of jhaana)? How so? Cannot sati take any dhamma as object, even sense-pleasures and so on? Thanks again in advance! mike 24659 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: " Thanks man--but just to clarify, are you quite sure > that 'music and dancing > can be viewed as a hindrance of Satipatthana' > (rather than of jhaana)? How > so? Cannot sati take any dhamma as object, even > sense-pleasures and so on?" ------------------------------------------------------- Mike, that´s only my opinion - Nina always remarks that I never read the Vinaya as frequently as I read the Dhammasangami... and she is right! "Satipatthana" may have the meaning of "vigilance" -an careful self-overview at all your activities: standing at foot, walking, working, etc, and sitting at padmasana, cultivating Samatha. Following the cold text, you won´t find at the prescribed standings of your life - on foot, walking, laying down on your right side, etc - the merry and joy of dance and singing. Jhaana, at other side, has an approach to human happiness - piti-sukhi Jhaana - but only at the first stages of practice. Nina states that perhaps only formal Bhikkhus can attain Satipatthana... and if I could understand well her words, she is really right at this matter. Sati can get kusala dhammas, of course. If you follow the Combinatoria Analisys of the Patthana, perhaps you may find a hetupaccayoti kusala kariya vipaka Dhamma, accomplished with sensual pleasure, that apports to satipatthana... but apparently only bhikkhus can attain it. ---------------------------------------------------- > Mike:" Thanks again in advance!" ---------------------------------------------------- Pas du tout, mon ami! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24660 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:12pm Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Hello Suan, I agree, for most Buddhist people in most western societies there is not the choice of dhamma study and practice while being supported practically and encouraged spiritually. So it becomes a lifestyle choice of those with an income stream which doesn't require daily attendance at a worldly job. This is not within the possibilities open to the ordinary person. Which is partly how the discussion arose elsewhere about alternative lifestyles that would allow women or men to devote their time (that scarce resource) to dhamma study and practice without needing to spend 12-15 hours a day attending to survival, travel and maintenance needs. The fostering of the Bhikkhu and Bhikkhuni Sanghas in western countries, and the Bhikkhuni Sangha in all countries,is only in its infancy, and will be a growing resource. But,there are many who want a middle choice between wage-slavery and going forth. I couldn't find nikkhama in the dictionary - should it be spelled differently, or be part of a larger word? I know it is used in the sense of renunciation, but I have also seen it used as meaning 'performing tasks without hoping to obtain wealth, fame or privileges'. What do you mean by an 'infallible level'? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Jim, Sara, Christine, and all > > How are you? > > The Pali term that occurred to me when I first read Jim's plans to go > off-line and hibernate was nikkhama paaramiitaa undertaken without > ordination for a short period of time. > > Jim's plans sound to me physical distancing from usual busy > engagements. > > Even though nikkhama paaramiitaa is best fulfilled as an ordained > bhikkhu or as a ten-precept Theravada nun or as a Mahayana bhikkhuni > (like in the case of a controversial Thai female professor did with > the help of Taiwanese Mahayana bhikkhunis), lay people like us can > also fulfil it in many forms if in limited capacities. > > All forms of nikkhama are designed to free ourselves from the usual > obligations of social, societal and interpersonal engagements. > > Ironically, the question an aspirant nikkhama seeker needs to ask > oneself is how to fund this luxury of disengagement in a western > acquisitive materialistic society like Australia. It appears that > only rich people can afford nikkhama paaramiitaa, the luxury of > disengagement, - the societal disengagement in particular. > > Everyone in a western society like Australia is conditioned to fulfil > the obligations of societal engagements to live. Societal > disengagement means beginning with deprivation of livelihood leading > to unprotected homelessness and untimely ending with death - yes, in > the rich First World. > > Thus, unless you have already amassed funds for living expenses to > last for the rest of your life, nikkhama paaramiitaa at the level of > complete societal disengagement cannot be fulfilled. > > The good news is, though, that nikkhama paaramiitaa at the levels of > social and interpersonal disengagement can be fulfilled if the > aspirant nikkhama seeker has been practicing mental cultivation with > samatha and vipassanaa to an infallible stage. > > With regards, > > Suan 24661 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: bathtub musings Hello Connie, Thank you for mentioning this sutta which teaches against seeing anything graspable in any of the five aggregates. - it is also one of the few suttas where the Buddha actually mentions Bhikkhunis .. the first lines read "Bhikkhus, if in any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni desire or lust or hatred or delusion or aversion of mind should arise in regard to forms cognizable by the eye, such a one should rein in the mind from them thus; 'This path is fearful, dangerous, strewn with thorns, covered by jungle, a deviant path, an evil path, a way beset by scarcity. this is a path followed by inferior people; it is not the path followed by superior people. This is not for you.' In this way the mind should be reined in from these states regrding forms cognizable ny the eye. So too regarding sounds cognizable by the ear ... regarding mental phenomena cognizable by the mind." ========== Connie said: "I think with the singing-chanting, there may be a lot of wrapping self in voice or making how something is said more important than the meaning? Dancing dhamma? ========== What you say is true, though sometimes a meaning indefinable in words can be conveyed by the beautiful nuances of well trained voice, or the skills of a master musician. And sometimes the mood created by poetry and music can be calming and, perhaps, make one more amenable to reflection and considering the truths of existence. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nichiconn" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > After everyone else had gone to bed tonight, (was it my guitar > playing?) I picked up ADL and opened it to the story of the lute > where the men say "That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, > that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so > ravishing, of such power to bind and the rajah says, "A poor thing is > what you call a lute, a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein > the world is exceeding careless and led astray." May be > chanting/singing is like that. Still, I was thinking earlier tonight > that I'd like to listen to the Metta again when I get home. I like > it when I recognize words without reading them. I think with the > singing-chanting, there may be a lot of wrapping self in voice or > making how something is said more important than the meaning? > Dancing dhamma? > > peace, > connie 24662 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: L: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned." Why only "some concepts"? ***** S: I've read the Vism note carefully, checked the Sammohavinodani and so on and I can only say 'very good question' and I think it must be a mistake. All concepts are asabhaava and some realities such as space. Time is a concept as I understand. ---------------------------- Larry: The only thing I could think of is maybe this means that some dhammas without individual characteristics, such as the attainment of cessation and _some_ concepts such as space and time, can be objects of panna, which is here characterized as insight knowledge beginning with knowledge of rise and fall. Maybe we could start a file of questions for B. Bodhi starting with this one. Larry 24663 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:57pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 9 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 9. 1. Herein, the singlefold meaning is obvious in meaning. 2. As regards the twofold section, the "mundane" is that associated with the mundane path and the "supramundane" is that associated with the supramundane path. So it is of two kinds as mundane and supramundane. 24664 From: Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 Vism. XIV, 9: "Herein, the singlefold meaning is obvious in meaning." L: This should read "the singlefold section is obvious in meaning". The singlefold kind of understanding is understanding as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states. Larry 24665 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] *** FOR SUKIN **** Dear Sukin, op 27-08-2003 10:48 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > What have you been discussing or raising in your Sat afternoon sessions > with Khun Sujin recently? How does the dhamma help you with family and > business difficulties and uncertainties, Sukin? Keen to hear more from you > with some daily life examples and I know Nina would like this too;-) N: Yes, Yes, yes!!!!!!!! 24666 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan, op 26-08-2003 22:39 schreef Gayan Karunaratne op gkarunaratne@v...:> > its all self-self-self > > Pleasure is all mine to read all your posts. N: It should be two sided, if you have time it is great if you in your turn will also write, so that i can read your posts. As Sarah said today to Sukin: Isn't that a good one? Nina. 24667 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 27-08-2003 17:23 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Could it be that the result of jhaana clung to by the sotaapanna is not > rebirth but something else (e.g. a pleasant abiding here and now)? N: The vipaka produced by kusala jhaanacitta can only be in the form of rebirth. There is no other kind of vipaka. It is a happy rebirth, and can be object of clinging, also for the sotaapanna, why not? It is not necessaruly accompanied by wrong view. Sassata di.t.thi: see Buddhis dict: belief in a soul that is lasting, forever. But there are many degrees of ditthi. Sassata seems to me an extreme form. Nina. 24668 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Icaro, I thought you would become very busy now. I just react here, because more people think of music as a hindrance or impediment. You will not be able to study much until february? It is hard training in a tropical climate. op 27-08-2003 11:41 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > music and dancing can be viewed as a > hindrance of Satipatthana.. N: No, nothing is a hindrance, except the tenth impediment, mentioned by Jon: supernormal powers. Anything that comes up naturally can be seen as nama and rupa, and more understanding of them can be developed. There is sound, that is real. Thinking of music, playing music, liking it, they are all paramattha dhammas. Nina. 24669 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:52pm Subject: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, We were talking about possible contradictions between the Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitakas: ------------ > what I had in mind here was quite specifically the > notion of pa~n~natti as unconditioned and permanent. -------------- I'm sure there is no such notion in the Abhidhamma -- nor in any other Buddhist text. However, I (and one or two others), have said that sort of thing here on dsg. As a way of understanding the difference between what is real and what is illusion, I like to suggest that a coffee cup, for example, is permanent. After all, it was here on my desk this morning and it is still here now. The perception of this so-called 'permanence' can only be attributed to the insanity of the uninstructed worldling. Despite appearances, concepts do not last in any way but nor do they possess the characteristic, anicca -- because they are nothing at all. --------------- > That is objectionable and contrary to the Dhamma. There > is but one unconditioned dhamma, nibbana, and all other > dhammas are conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfying, and > not-self. ---------------- Fair enough. Saying, for the purposes of making a point, that concepts are permanent, pleasurable and self is at best, unnecessary and at worst, counterproductive. I think this mistake of mine is similar to one you made when you wrote: > > > But if 'concept' means "thought", which is my > > > meaning of that word, then concepts are conditioned > > > mind-door objects, and are not special except for > > > their usefulness and their perils. Why are there two things: 1, your meaning of the word and 2, the Tipitaka's meaning of the word? Doesn't this make understanding even more difficult? Original thinking may be a luxury we can't afford. Perhaps you and I should follow Num and Nina's lead when they say they are merely "parroting" what they have heard. (To paraphrase Winston Churchill: "Some parrots!") Changing the subject; we were talking about the intrinsic pleasantness/unpleasantness of sense objects. There is confusion over what each of us is trying to say. My point is: it is important to know that dhammas are absolute -- that their characteristics are independent of how they are reacted to. A rupa that becomes the object of consciousness is inherently pleasant or unpleasant. It depends, not on how it is perceived, but on how it is conditioned (and is conditioned by either kusala kamma or akusala kamma.) As a general rule, pleasant sense objects are reacted to with lobha and unpleasant objects with dosa but I think there are a lot of exceptions. I don't know why. It seems to be something other than vipallasa; it's probably just that various other conditions predominate. What is important though, is that we appreciate the absolute nature of dhammas: A rupa may be inherently pleasant even when it is experienced with dosa; or inherently unpleasant even when it is experienced with lobha. On the subject of the Commentaries, you wrote: --------------- > I do believe that they are to be accorded enormous > respect, deserving of careful analysis. I do not > believe they should ever serve as carte blanche > substitutes for our own minds. The Buddha said the same > even with regard to his OWN teachings. -------------- If I could take a pill that would swap my understanding for an arahant's understanding, I think I would. I assume you would not but there is no difference -- neither way is the Middle Way. When we have heard the Dhamma explained, right understanding will arise to the extent that it has been conditioned to arise -- there is no control. Kind regards, Ken H 24670 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 0:40am Subject: Intelligence or wisdom Dear Group, Do intelligence and wisdom correlate in any way? Does lack of intelligence mean that panna cannot arise? I wonder if there are different sorts of intelligence, or if intelligence fluctuates within the same person. I guess I'm feeling frustrated at not understanding, or sometimes not even being interested in, what others seem to understand so easily and feel so enthusiastic about regarding the Dhamma. I read the technical threads and the discussions between others and start to feel a little discouraged. I used to think it was because of the Pali - but it's not. I read somewhere that some people are born lacking something (a root?) which means that they will never be able to understand the Dhamma no matter how much sincere effort they put in. Does anyone remember what this is? Are there any suttas where any 'not so bright' people made progress? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 24671 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I seldom get sick or have an accident. .... Let’s hope your good fortune (good vipaka) continues in this regard;-) .... > I wasn't thinking of any Pali word in particular for 'simplicity'. > Buddhadatta gives: 1. amissataa 2. viniitataa 3. sugamataa. I was just > thinking that 'voluntary simplicity' reflected my ideas of living a > simple life along the lines of fewness of wishes (icchataa), > contentment with little, enjoyment of a quiet life away from the > hustle and bustle of the modern world, having more leisure time to > devote oneself to meditation and study, and so on. I think there is > quite a lot in the Theravada teachings to support such a life. .... I think it would be useful and interesting to explore this further - especially icchatta (fewness of wishes) and contentment with little. I’d be glad to read anything further that you particularly have in mind from the texts, but I know you are hoping to be easing off on internet use for now. I’ll try, therefore to also resist adding any questions or comments that you might feel bound to respond to, Jim;-) Rather like 'solitude', I think there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and then fewness of wishes being the opposite of craving. I have a quote I like a lot about icchataa in this manner, but I may put it in another post to Nori. ..... >I think > one of the problems of living truly as a bhikkhu is the incredibly > wide gap between it and living as a layperson in a busy modern > society. It seems to me that for most people it is taking quite a > psychological leap to go from one to the other, a leap that was > probably not so great during the time of the Buddha when most people > were living a much simpler life than now. ... I’m sure that’s right for many. But, of course many of the bhikkhus left very wealthy and prestigious lay lives as well, so I’m not sure about this. Also, I’m not sure the leap in terms of leaving family and friends is ever less for those used to leading a simpler life. .... >I'm thinking that the simple > life as a layperson could be a bridge between the two in that the > layperson is free to work at his own pace towards the bhikkhu/homeless > person ideal. I also understand that there can be other approaches > too, it's really up to each individual to work out what's best. One > could also take up a simple solitary life in the city. .... I mostly agree with all your comments, Jim and I know that you have very kindly intentions to try to help and support others who wish to lead a simple solitary life as you have done for so long. I know you have gained a lot of experience in this regard that you can share and are very aware of the difficulties others may have. It’s kind of you to consider supporting those without internet access by snail mail. Azita very kindly prints out copies of DSG posts to send to thr ex-bhikkhus I mentioned and others. Anumodana, Azita. I'm just thinking that RobM's Xmas present CD could be of great use in this regard - if they at least have computers they can read the archives without internet access if they wish and then snailmail comments to pass back here. (Christine, maybe you could raise this at the Cooran weekend.) As I’ve mentioned before, while I think it’s good if we can support those living a solitary life by choice or conditions (and like Chris, I think it’s good to keep this topic alive here), to be honest, I’m not sure whether one can refer to a physically solitary life as ‘the bhikkhu/homeless ideal’. We read so much in the Vinaya and suttas about the duties of bhikkhus towards other bhikkhus and lay people. As you know, I’ve been reading the commentary to the Parinibbana sutta and the details about the welfare and harmony of the Sangha in terms of frequent assembly for so many purposes. I was also interested in the section (all in ch1) about “The well-behaved (pesalaa): those whose behaviour (siila) is good (piya).” In brief, these are the bhikkhus who ‘behave hospitably’ to visiting bhikkhus. If the visitor says “he will leave, they do not allow him to leave, saying things like, ‘this dwelling-place is suitable, it is easy to get almsfood.’ They rehearse the Vinaya and various teachings with the visiting elders. “The visitors will say, ‘Though when we came we thought that we would stay one or two days, it is such a pleasure to live with these people that we will stay ten or twelve years.’” And so, the Sangha prospers! Of course, this sociability is only to discuss Dhamma-Vinaya and we also read the details of those with jhana experiences well away from the ‘neighbourhood of a village’ and enjoying forest life. So much detail here. As Mike said, very specific conditions for these. ..... > Although I'm planning to go offline at the end of September, I will > soon be easing off from the internet traffic (I'm already looking for > the exit!) and not responding as much as before, but will keep looking > in and post the odd message. ..... October looks like it could be a bit quiet when Icaro is off at Boot Camp, you’re in hibernation as Nina puts it;-), and several of us head off to Thailand and Burma. Anything can happen. I’ve appreciated these discussions, Jim. Please don’t ever feel you need to respond to anything I write. Of course, anything you do say is always useful to reflect on. Metta, Sarah p.s If I have a chance (and an interpreter!), I'll try to ask K.Supee about Pali grammars too. ====== 24672 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings All Hi Gayan (& Htoo), --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > > Metta by proxy :o) .... Any metta is good metta :0) ..... > oh, what I had in mind was.. > since the faculties are unguarded lot of akusala kammas are happening, [...]. > Applying metta, giving a right-out-of-the-pocket donation to a beggar > etc.. > > although theres no way of measuring, I guess most of us people will have > similar accumulations of kusala and akusala dusring a day. .... I agree....far more akusala than we’re aware of, I’m sure... .... > Pardon my ignorance for not being very sure about what you/Jim are > looking > for, .... Sorry about that. If you look at this post of Jim’s, he explains in detail: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24487 i.e he’s looking for out-of-print Pali texts, esp. old grammar texts. I don’t think BPS can help. I think it’ll probably be another Pali expert that identifies a source for him...that’s why I thought you might have an idea, Gayan. Htoo might have an idea as well. It’s nice if we can help members here with unusual Theravada Buddhist requests. Dave (in US) wished to purchase a Buddha statue before and RobM generously offered to purchase one in Malaysia, have it blessed at his temple and send it to Dave. Even being able to appreciate these kind gestures is a way of heling the ‘break-even’;-) Btw, can we encourage you to translate any other passages you have up your sleeve on relevant topics? That would well and truly compensate for the KFC salivating;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24673 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Nina: Nina: " I thought you would become very busy now. I just > react here, because more > people think of music as a hindrance or impediment. > You will not be able to study much until february? > It is hard training in a > tropical climate. " ----------------------------------------------------- Thanxs! The region of the training is Minas Gerais, which climate is more moderated than Amazonia´s and less hard and dry than The Northeast! But here on Brazil the first forty days - quarantine! - are of total seclusion! All the time inside the barracks! I think that only at the end of october I will be allowed to go out at the weekends! (My Birthday is October 22nd). Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but seemed to me that the level of discussions over there is very high. I can try get a dictionary and a grammar of Indonesian... anyway, it was this way I´ve learned English, French, Japanese and now I am getting through Pali ( finally I downloaded the Duroseille Pali´s Grammar!!!). Only Chinese Mandarin I learned at usual ways...on sunday classes at the Christian Chinese Church here at Rio... and Portuguese, of course! Ni zao! Wô jiào míngzu Ícaro!!! Other languages as Swedish - I lived on Sweden in 1996-1997, Gothemburg - and Dutch I found to be very difficult to get only with a knack on books! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24674 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Dear Sarah: Sarah: "October looks like it could be a bit quiet when > Icaro is off at Boot Camp, > you’re in hibernation as Nina puts it;-), and > several of us head off to > Thailand and Burma. Anything can happen." -------------------------------------------------- "October the first is too late!"...heheheheh! Just kidding. It´s the title of a SF book by Fred Hoyle! The first forty days will be The Quarantine: total seclusion and all the time inside the barracks! After that we will allowed to go out at weekends! I am carrying on with me my walkman and some tapes of His Holiness The Dalai Lama´s audiobooks... to listen just before sleeping! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24675 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Nina: Nina:" No, nothing is a hindrance, except the tenth > impediment, mentioned by > Jon: supernormal powers. > Anything that comes up naturally can be seen as nama > and rupa, and more > understanding of them can be developed. There is > sound, that is real. > Thinking of music, playing music, liking it, they > are all paramattha > dhammas.~" ----------------------------------------------------- Well posed, Nina! Since music and dance can be viewed as an aggregate of nama, rupa... and citta, so they´re can be classified as Paramattha Dhammas. Citta plays a fundamental role at this Dhamma! Having got concepts about music, music this or music that - "Devil´s Music Vol. I" - are Sammuit-Sacca. I hope oldie Mike forgives me my occasional "Pharisaic" viewpoints! ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24676 From: m. nease Date: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Thanks, Nina, Probably going off on a tangent--always good to be corrected. So 'result' always and only refers (in this sort of context) to vipaaka? And vipaaka always and only refers to rebirth? Is this ever applicable to kha.nika rebirth? mike ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan > Dear Mike, > op 27-08-2003 17:23 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > > Could it be that the result of jhaana clung to by the sotaapanna is not > > rebirth but something else (e.g. a pleasant abiding here and now)? > N: The vipaka produced by kusala jhaanacitta can only be in the form of > rebirth. There is no other kind of vipaka. It is a happy rebirth, and can be > object of clinging, also for the sotaapanna, why not? It is not necessaruly > accompanied by wrong view. > Sassata di.t.thi: see Buddhis dict: belief in a soul that is lasting, > forever. > But there are many degrees of ditthi. Sassata seems to me an extreme form. > Nina. 24677 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/28/03 1:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > My > point is: it is important to know that dhammas are > absolute -- that their characteristics are independent > of how they are reacted to. A rupa that becomes the > object of consciousness is inherently pleasant or > unpleasant. It depends, not on how it is perceived, but > on how it is conditioned (and is conditioned by either > kusala kamma or akusala kamma.) > ========================= Much of your post includes material on which we differ, if we differ at all, only in terms of formulation, not substance. So I am only addressing the material quoted above. I may or may not be understanding what you are saying here. I *think* that what you are saying is the following: It is sloppy to speak of, for example, *the* rupa of hardess. There arise, at differing times, and due to differing conditions, various *differing* hardness rupas. Any particular hardness rupa that arises carries with it a specific affective flavor - a specific degree and kind of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral "taste" which is a feature of that particular rupa, and may well differ from the vedanic flavor of otherwise-conditioned hardness rupas. If that is what you are saying, then I think it is *very* interesting and quite plausible. My way of understanding has been more along the lines of various conditions leading to the arising of a particular rupa, and various conditions - some in common with the rupa-conditioning conditions, and some different from these, which condition the vedana that arises in association with that rupa. This latter means of understanding views the rupa as one dhamma, the vedana as another dhamma, and the two co-arising due to conditions. The former understanding (which I'll call "the intrinsic understanding") seems to have the conditioning be conditioning directly of the rupa, itself, with the vedana that arises being subordinate, and determined by, and intrinsic to the particular rupa. Of these two, I do find the intrinsic understanding to be aesthetically more pleasing and *simpler* than "the extrinsic understanding". Which is a more accurate statement of the facts is something I don't know. I do have two questions: Have I understood correctly what you mean, and, if so, does the Abhidhamma explicitly present the intrinsic understanding? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24678 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Ell Tee: ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 3:11 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music > I hope oldie Mike forgives me my occasional > "Pharisaic" viewpoints! Forgiven, Sir! Enjoy your boots! mike 24679 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Dear Upasaka:"I do have two > questions: Have I understood > correctly what you mean, and, if so, does the > Abhidhamma explicitly present the > intrinsic understanding?" ----------------------------------------------------- Uplifted Upasaka! You are right: when one afirm an object - as image of a real one or as a mental stuff as ideas and concepts, such vedanas arose by means of a definite nama/rupa at our sense-doors: if mind is not a "tabula rasa" where the external world writes what it wishes, is not also a source of innate ideas that come of nowhere. The middle path at these questions is paramount! And yes, Abhidhamma has an intrinsic understanding. It´s Niyama with internal coherence! A big Metta to you, Uprighted Upasaka! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24680 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Nori, Thank you so much for your kind feedback. --- norakat147 wrote: N:> While I have often contemplated doing something like you have done > (that takes a lot of bal... ehem, guts), I also thought, depending on > what kind of situation I end up in, it might not be more conducive to > enlightenment. For one thing, I would not have access to the entire > tipitaka for study. Also, other problems might arise distracting me > from progress. .... Nori, I really truly believe that whatever the situation, our kilesa (defiements) always distract us from progress. I agree too, that with internet access and much of the Tipitaka easily available now, for many people the best opportunities for study and consideration maybe just where they are right now! I appreciate your comments and reflections on other threads too. I think that any exploration and development of understanding of the Dhamma takes ‘guts’. I think we all have different questions and stumbling blocks to overcome in our own way. So many of the points you raise remind me of questions and issues that I’ve also raised at one time or other and I’d like to encourage you to keep them flowing;-) You asked Victor (I think) for more elaboration on sense-desire clinging, but he seems to have disappeared for now, so let me add the quote I just mentioned on ‘fewness of wishes’ (appicchaata) as it relates to your question too. I take sense-desire clinging to include all kinds of attachment from the most subtle sense desire as soon as we open our eyes, hear, smell and so on, that we have no idea about in a day. (We also see how it ‘accumulates’). Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion, PTS) 846: “ ‘Herein, what is sense-desire clinging? That which in sense-desires is lust for sense-desires, greed for sense-desires, delight in sense-desires, craving for sense-desires, love of sense-desires, fever of sense-desires, infatuation with sense-desires, cleaving to sense-desires - this is called sense-desire clinging’ (Dhs 1214). Firmness of craving is a name for subsequent craving that has become firm owing to previous craving, which acts as its decisive support condition. But some have said: ‘Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief’s stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief’s grasping the goods. These states are opposed to fewness of wishes (appicchaata) and contentment. Hence they are the root of the suffering due to seeking and guarding [of property]’ (see Dii58f). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [wrong] view.” **** Thanks also Nori for your quote; > From Itivuttaka: > § 82. {Iti III.33; Iti 75} > "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have > heard: "These three divine sounds sound forth among the devas on > appropriate occasions. Which three? When a disciple of the noble > ones, shaving off his hair & beard, clothing himself in the ochre > robe, makes up his mind to go forth from the home life into > homelessness, on that occasion the divine sound sounds forth among > the devas: 'This disciple of the noble ones has made up his mind to > do battle with Mara.' This is the first divine sound that sounds > forth among the devas on appropriate occasions." > N:> This is suggested many times in the tipitaka. Maybe this is for those > in advanced stages. In the meantime, I will do battle with mara right > here. First I must know the basics. ..... I think that’s right (i.e we all need to learn the basics first;-)) and can appreciate the ‘going forth’ and pay respect to the Sangha, appreciating especially the ‘fewness of wishes’ of the ariyan disciples referred to in the passage you quote. In the other translations, it’s clearer perhaps that ‘disciple of the noble ones’ refers to an Ariyan disciple, i.e one who has become enlightened already. The second and third sounds refer to the increase in wisdom of the Ariyan disciple and full eradication of all defilements, ie arhantship. Woodward’s translation of the final verse (PTS) is: “Beholding him victorious in the fight, Disciple of the rightly wakened One, Even the devas call aloud in honour Of him the mighty one, of wisdom ripe: ‘We worship thee, O thoroughbred of men! For thou hast won the battle hard to win, Routing by thy release (from birth-and-death) The host of Death that could not hinder more,’ Thus do they praise him who has won the goal. Surely the devas praise in him that thing By which one goes to mastery of Death.” ..... >Back in those times in Kosala > territory, it might have been more conducive to attainment then today > (to be homeless) since many learned men wandered about and it gave > one access to the teachings; Since writing did not exist yet, one > could not just read them in a book, or on the internet. .... I think there’s a lot of truth in this. Thanks again for your comments and fine questions, Nori. Perhaps Mike, Victor or others will add their comments too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24681 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, This is just a quick response mostly to correct a mistake I made. 'Icchataa' should be 'appicchataa' (appa = few). It's in the Book of Ones (or is it the Twos?) of AN. I also think it might be one of the five dhuras. There is quite a bit of AN commentary on this as well. I'm afraid I don't know all that much about it and would have to study it further. Also Suan's 'nikkhaamma' should be 'nekkhamma'. I think the discussion is interesting and an important one for me and I hope we can continue on with it for a little while longer. Yesterday, I was looking at the possibility of a correlation of the quiet life vs the busy life to introversion vs extroversion, to the way of the samathayaanika vs that of the vipassanaayaanika, to the yin and the yang. I took yesterday off (a new moon day) to do an all day sit and today I'm going on a long walk and stopping by for groceries on the way back. I will get back to you, Suan, and Christine at a later time. I'm afraid my study of Vism stopped when the lights went out two weeks ago and it doesn't look like I'll be able to resume it until the phone line is disconnected now that this discussion is on the go. Best wishes, Jim > Hi Jim, > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > > I seldom get sick or have an accident. > .... > Let's hope your good fortune (good vipaka) continues in this regard;-) > .... > > I wasn't thinking of any Pali word in particular for 'simplicity'. > > Buddhadatta gives: 1. amissataa 2. viniitataa 3. sugamataa. I was just > > thinking that 'voluntary simplicity' reflected my ideas of living a > > simple life along the lines of fewness of wishes (icchataa), > > contentment with little, enjoyment of a quiet life away from the > > hustle and bustle of the modern world, having more leisure time to > > devote oneself to meditation and study, and so on. I think there is > > quite a lot in the Theravada teachings to support such a life. > .... > I think it would be useful and interesting to explore this further - > especially icchatta (fewness of wishes) and contentment with little. I'd > be glad to read anything further that you particularly have in mind from > the texts, but I know you are hoping to be easing off on internet use for > now. [...] 24682 From: m. nease Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Hi Sarah (and Nori), ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 5:41 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) Thanks for the great quote, especially: > 'Craving is > the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's > stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an > object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping the goods. These > states are opposed to fewness of wishes (appicchaata) and contentment. These similes seem to me to apply as well to fewness of wishes and contentment as to anything else. mike 24683 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 ; RE: Music Dear Mike: Mike: "Ell Tee:" -------------------------------------------------- Heh!!! Indonesian !!!!!!!!!! I will begin with a Berlitz guide to speaking Indonesian... ------------------------------------------------- Mike: Forgiven, Sir! Enjoy your boots!" ------------------------------------------------- That reminds me a tune of Iron Maiden: " Die with your boots on". I know...I know... You do prefer old fashioned blues... but here is the song: Die With Your Boots On Adrian Smith, Bruce Dickinson, Steve Harris Another Prophet of Disaster Who says the ship is lost, Another Prophet of Disaster Leaving you to count the cost. Taunting us with Visions, Afflicting us with fear, Predicting War for millions, In the hope that one appears. No point asking when it is, No point asking who's to go, No point asking what's the game, No point asking who's to blame. 'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die, 'cos if you're gonna die, if you're gonna die, If you're gonna die, die with your boots on. If you're gonna try, just stick around, Gonna cry, just move along, If you're gonna die, you're gonna die. In 13 the Beast is rising, The Frenchman did surmise, Through earthquakes and starvation, The warlord will arise. Terror, Death, Destruction, Pour from the Eastern Sands, But the truth of all predictions, Is always in your hands. If you're gonna die, die with your boots on, If you're gonna try, just stick around, Gonna cry, just move along, If you're gonna die, you're gonna die. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24684 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:09am Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Christine, and all How are you? You asked: "I couldn't find nikkhama in the dictionary - should it be spelled differently, or be part of a larger word? I know it is used in the sense of renunciation, but I have also seen it used as meaning 'performing tasks without hoping to obtain wealth, fame or privileges'." Spelling is correct, and the entries "nikkhama" and "nikkhamati" appear on page 353 in Pali Text Society Pali-English Dictionary as follows. -------------------- Nikkhama (p. 353) (adj.) [cp. Sk. niṣkrama] going out from PvA 80 (nāsikāya n.--mala). dun° at Th 1, 72 is to be read dunnikkhaya, = as indicated by vv. ll. See the latter. Next entry Nikkhamati (p. 353) [Sk. niṣkramati, nis+kamati] to go forth from, to= come out of (c. abl.), to get out, issue forth, depart, fig. to leave the household life behind (agārā n.), to retire from the world (c= p. abhinikkhamati etc.), or to give up evil desire. -- (a) lit. (often with bahi outside, out; opp. pavisati to enter into: A V.195). D II.14 (mātu kucchismā); J I.52 (mātukucchito). Imper. nikkha= ma Pv. I.103; ppr. nikkhamanto J I.52; II.153; III.26 (mukhato); PvA 90; aor. nikkhami J II.154; III.188; fut. °issati J II.154; ger. nikkhamma J I.51, 61 (fig.) & nikkhamitvā J I.16, 138 (fig.), 265; III.26; IV.449 (n. pabbajissāmi); PvA 14, 19 (fig.) 67 (gāmato), = 74 (id.); inf. nikkhamituŋ J I.61 (fig.); II.104; Pv I.102 (bahi n.); grd. nikkhamitabba Vin I.47. <-> (b) fig. (see also nikkamati, & cp. nekkhamma & BSk. niṣkramati in same meaning, e. g. Divy 68 etc.) S I.156 (ārabbhati+)=Miln 245 (where nikkamati); J I.51 (agārā= ), 61 (mahābhinikkhamanaŋ "the great renunciation"), PvA 19 (id.). -- p= p. nikkhanta; caus. nikkhameti (q. v.). You also asked: "What do you mean by an 'infallible level'?" When your practice of samatha and vipassanaa becomes part of your system and your first nature, your mental development (bhaavanaa) is said to be on the path (you are having maggasaccaa, the path truth). In natural English, the practice of your mental cultivation is on course, on track. When you reach the stage of being on the right track in the practice of concentration and insight as your first nature in the Buddhist training framework, I define your stage as being at an infallible level. You began your post with the following. "I agree, for most Buddhist people in most western societies there is not the choice of dhamma study and practice while being supported practically and encouraged spiritually. So it becomes a lifestyle choice of those with an income stream which doesn't require daily attendance at a worldly job. This is not within the possibilities open to the ordinary person. Which is partly how the discussion arose elsewhere about alternative lifestyles that would allow women or men to devote their time (that scarce resource) to dhamma study and practice without needing to spend 12-15 hours a day attending to survival, travel and maintenance needs." Your observation above is so important that it should be considered against the wider backdrop of the disappearance of Buddhism in India. I read a few years ago about a Burmese Buddhist monastery in Sourth Africa where a Myanmar Sayadaw and his assistant, an Australian Sayadaw, have been undertaking saasana duties. The Aussi Sayadaw serves as the main communicatior of dhamma affairs. They observe that the majority of listeners to Buddhism comes from the white population. This also speak volumes about the lotus position of Buddhism. After all, Buddhism comes from the royal caste, and is the religion of the kings and rulers in Asia. Looking forward to more of your insights regarding how best we could create supportive communities for the serious Buddhist practitioners in a totally-commercialized western society. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org metta and peace, Christine 24685 From: danny_shepherd Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:00am Subject: Hello from Prague HI! I would like to say a short hello to everybody in this dhamma group. My name is Peter and I presently live in Prague, Czech Republik, Europe. Ive been interested in buddhism for a few years. This year I visited Wat Pah Nanachat, Wat Pah Baan Taad, then I went to see Ajahn Jayasaro and Ajahn Jundee. This all was in Thailand. This raining season there is a monk Ajahn Chandako staying in Czech Republic so if you happen to be passing drop me an email and I give you more details. There is a short info on www.volny.cz/chandako/en_index.htm Be well and patient :) Peter St. 24686 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B. series: 9 B ---------- Van: nina van gorkom Datum: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:48:48 +0200 Aan: Pali yahoo Onderwerp: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B. series: 9 B Relevant sutta passage: atha kho bhagavaa apaloketvaa aayasmanta.m raahula.m aamantesi -- ``ya.m ki~nci, raahula, ruupa.m -- atiitaanaagatapaccuppanna.m ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddhaa vaa o.laarika.m vaa sukhuma.m vaa hiina.m vaa pa.niita.m vaa ya.m duure santike vaa -- sabba.m ruupa.m `neta.m mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attaa'ti evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya da.t.thabba''nti. ``ruupameva nu kho, bhagavaa, ruupameva nu kho, sugataa''ti? ``ruupampi, raahula, vedanaapi, raahula, sa~n~naapi, raahula, sa"nkhaaraapi, raahula, vi~n~naa.nampi, raahulaa''ti. "Rahula, whatever form, - past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, base or exalted, whether it is far or near, - all form should be seen as it really is with right wisdom in such a way: "This is not mine, I am not this, this is not me". "Form only, Lord? Form only, Blessed One?² "Also feeling, perception, formations and consciousness, Rahula, as well as form." Commentary: tattha ya.mki~nci ruupantiaadiini sabbaakaarena visuddhimagge khandhaniddese vitthaaritaani. Here, as to the words, ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m, whatever form (material phenomena), these are explained in every way in the ³Visuddhimagga², ³Description of the Aggregates² (Ch XIV). neta.m mamaatiaadiini mahaahatthipadopame vuttaani. As to the words, n'eta.m mama, this is not myself etc., these have been explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28). ruupameva nu kho bhagavaati kasmaa pucchati? Why did Rahula ask, "Only materiality, Lord?² tassa kira -- ``sabba.m ruupa.m neta.m mama, nesohamasmi na meso attaa''ti sutvaa -- `` Since he had heard, ³all materiality is not mine, I am not this, this is not me" bhagavaa sabba.m ruupa.m vipassanaapa~n~naaya eva.m da.t.thabbanti vadati, and the Lord had said that all materiality should be seen thus by insight knowledge, vedanaadiisu nu kho katha.m pa.tipajjitabba''nti nayo udapaadi. he was wondering by which method he should practise with regard to feelings and so on. tasmaa tasmi.m naye .thito pucchati. Rahula was steadfast in the methods of teaching and therefore he asked such a question. nayakusalo hesa aayasmaa raahulo, ida.m na kattabbanti vutte When the Buddha said, ³This is conduct that is wholesome, Rahula, and this should not be done², idampi na kattabba.m idampi na kattabbamevaati nayasatenapi nayasahassenapi pa.tivijjhati. he comprehended with a hundred and even a thousand methods as to what should not be done that it truly should not be done, ida.m kattabbanti vuttepi eseva nayo. and he also understood what was said with regard to what should be done with the same methods. **** English: Here, as to the words, ya.m ki~nci ruupa.m, whatever form (material phenomena), these are explained in every way in the ³Visuddhimagga², ³Description of the Aggregates² (Ch XIV). As to the words, n'eta.m mama, this is not myself etc., these have been explained in the "Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint" (M 28). Why did Rahula ask, "Only materiality, Lord?² Since he had heard, ³all materiality is not mine, I am not this, this is not me" and the Lord had said that all materiality should be seen thus by insight knowledge, he was wondering by which method he should practise with regard to feelings and so on. Rahula was steadfast in the methods of teaching and therefore he asked such a question. When the Buddha said, ³This is conduct that is wholesome, Rahula, and this should not be done², he comprehended with a hundred and even a thousand methods as to what should not be done that it truly should not be done, and he also understood what was said with regard to what should be done with the same methods. **** Nina. 24687 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Hi Larry, here is one snetence, but I still have to refine it. op 28-08-2003 02:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Vism. XIV, 9: "Herein, the singlefold meaning is obvious in meaning." > > L: This should read "the singlefold section is obvious in meaning". > > The singlefold kind of understanding is understanding as having the > characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states. N:Vis. subco 8. dhammasabhaavapa.tivedho naama pa~n~naaya aave.niko sabhaavo, na tenassaa koci vibhaago labbhatiiti aaha The penetration of the individual natures of dhammas is truly the special characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa''ti. ³Because of its characteristic of penetration of the individual natures of dhammas it is just so of one kind.² Nina. 24688 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a misquote. Hi Icaro. You misquoted me!!!! op 27-08-2003 22:44 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Nina states that perhaps only > formal Bhikkhus can attain Satipatthana... and if I > could understand well her words, she is really right > at this matter. N: This misquote is understandable, because now you have the hustle bustle of packing, training, jogging, etc. Too much. I would suggest, we resume discussions on this difficult subject until Febr. Then you can read your Chmas present at ease. I find Sarah's idea of studying one Pali sentence of Patthana at a time an excellent idea. Or it could be Dhammasangani, if you like. My own experience is that before I realize it I give the sentence a totally different meaning, not knowing the real meaning of the Pali sentence. It is so tricky. I can also help with the Veldhuis spelling for Email, or perhaps you know it? Nina. 24689 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intelligence or wisdom Hi Christine My sense is that one needs at least and average or above intellegence to understand the more intricate parts of the teaching. Motivation plays an important role for even an average intellegence with enough motivation can do wonders. I believe Albert Einstein said something like -- "I'm not smarter than others, I've just spent more time on the problem." Wisdom seems to be come from a different area than intellegence because it just doesn't seem from observation that highly intellegent people have any special proclivity to being wise. It doesn't seem to help or hurt their chances. I think of wisdom as a skill. Skills develop when time is put in cultivating them. I think wisdom also comes from refection on what actions will lead to what results and the accuracy of such relflections. And especially looking for the roots of why things are happening the way they are. Not accepting merely the surface appearance of things or the "easy answer." Its holding truth in very high regard and being methodically careful in uncovering truth. And applying solid common sense to the search for truth. TG In a message dated 8/28/2003 12:42:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > Do intelligence and wisdom correlate in any way? Does lack of > intelligence mean that panna cannot arise? I wonder if there are > different sorts of intelligence, or if intelligence fluctuates within > the same person. > I guess I'm feeling frustrated at not understanding, or sometimes not > even being interested in, what others seem to understand so easily > and feel so enthusiastic about regarding the Dhamma. I read the > technical threads and the discussions between others and start to > feel a little discouraged. I used to think it was because of the > Pali - but it's not. > I read somewhere that some people are born lacking something (a > root?) which means that they will never be able to understand the > Dhamma no matter how much sincere effort they put in. Does anyone > remember what this is? Are there any suttas where any 'not so > bright' people made progress? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time > 24690 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intelligence or wisdom Hi, TG (and Christine) - In a message dated 8/28/03 2:56:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > Hi Christine > > My sense is that one needs at least and average or above intellegence to > understand the more intricate parts of the teaching. Motivation plays an > important role for even an average intellegence with enough motivation can > do wonders. > I believe Albert Einstein said something like -- "I'm not smarter than > others, I've just spent more time on the problem." > > Wisdom seems to be come from a different area than intellegence because it > just doesn't seem from observation that highly intellegent people have any > special proclivity to being wise. It doesn't seem to help or hurt their > chances. > > I think of wisdom as a skill. Skills develop when time is put in > cultivating > them. I think wisdom also comes from refection on what actions will lead to > > what results and the accuracy of such relflections. And especially looking > for the roots of why things are happening the way they are. Not accepting > merely the surface appearance of things or the "easy answer." Its holding > truth in > very high regard and being methodically careful in uncovering truth. And > applying solid common sense to the search for truth. > > TG > =========================== I agree that, typically, average or better intelligence is needed. But according to at least one sutta, even one of quite limited intelligence can become an ariyan. There is the case of a sutta in which a man of below average intelligence was instructed by the Buddha to take a rag in his hand, and pay attention to nothing but repeatedly rubbing it. This repetitive practice evidently led to one-pointedness of mind and calm, and the observing of the gradual dirtying of the rag from the rubbing apparently led to a keen insight into impermanence, and - bottom line - if memory serves me correctly, the man achieved the first stage of enlightenement. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24691 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Brief absence Hello All, I'm taking a brief leave of absence (two or three days) from dsg for the Cooran Get-together. Thank you for your replies on the 'Supportive spiritual communities for Lay Buddhists' and 'Intelligence or Wisdom' threads. Hopefully, I'll get back to those next Sun/Mon. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 24692 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: a misquote. Dear Nina: Nina: "Hi Icaro. > You misquoted me!!!!" ----------------------------------------------------- Oh! Pardonnez-moi !!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------- > N: This misquote is understandable, because now you > have the hustle bustle > of packing, training, jogging, etc. Too much. I > would suggest, we resume > discussions on this difficult subject until Febr. > Then you can read your > Chmas present at ease." -------------------------------------------------- Sometimes I look at the luggage I intend to carry on to travel and think: " Gosh!!! I am travelling to Australia!!!" I simply don´t know how many itens I must take with me... I look forward a paradigm as the Buddhist monk that can only carry three robes, a bowl, a staff, barber blade,etc... nine objects! I cannot make it so simple! And this question about Satipatthana is really abstruse. Sorry! ----------------------------------------------------- Nina:" I find Sarah's idea of > studying one Pali sentence of > Patthana at a time an excellent idea. Or it could be > Dhammasangani, if you > like. My own experience is that before I realize it > I give the sentence a > totally different meaning, not knowing the real > meaning of the Pali > sentence." -------------------------------------------------- That´s a good idea! I´ve downloaded the Duroseille´s Pali grammar, and a good Dictionary... so I intend attack the Visuddhimagga Comys with confidence at right time! --------------------------------------------------- Nina: "It is so tricky. > I can also help with the Veldhuis spelling for > Email, or perhaps you know > it? " --------------------------------------------------- About pali fonts for windows, no problem! I bought also the Lonely Planet´s Indonesian conversation! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24693 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Hi Nina, I was going to pick up the pace a little but if you are going to translate the entire subcommentary I won't. We would all enjoy reading this material, but I wonder if it may be too much to do. What do you think? Larry 24694 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: L: 3. If carriages and persons are perceived to be impermanent then why are they not sabhaava-dhammas? S: Because, to quote back from n18: " A dhamma that is an individual essence with a beginning and an end in time, produced by conditions, and marked by the three characteristics, is "positively produced". But besides this, what is "produced" [but not positively produced] is a dhamma with no individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) when it is produced by the taking of a name ...." In other words, carriages and persons are not marked by the ri-lakkhana, are not conditioned, are not marked by the phases of arising, existing and ceasing and have no sabhaava. They are 'produced' or conceived by thinking only. Larry: Hmm, seems like your argument doesn't add up. If carriages and persons are perceived (or understood) to be impermanent, then that in itself makes them perceived to have impermanent characteristics. If you assert that carriages and persons have no impermanent characteristics then I think you are saying you believe carriages and persons are permanent or at least not impermanent. Is that what you believe? Hypothetical Sarah (H.S.) might say yes, that is what I, H.S., believe because I don't directly see the impermanent characteristics of carriages and persons. In other words, I, H.S., don't directly see the impermanent group of impermanent rupa that is called carriages nor the impermanent group of impermanent khandhas that is called a person. In that case, what if someone else says they do see these rupas and khandhas as impermanent and they call them carriages and persons. Who has the right view? I don't think we can understand anatta unless we understand precisely what is denied in "anatta". So far, the only thing being denied is permanence. Where is the belief or assumption of permanence? Do you think a name is permanent? I'm not saying there is no such false belief or assumption, but I think we have to identify it in experience. Larry 24695 From: eaglenarius Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) Dear All, I've just got an idiot idea for us which still cling to sensual desire. As we know Sila is refraining us from bad conduct including the mistaken sex. But to perform Sila is very exhausting, just like a work of a door-keeper which have to keep a wild man (example a heroin addicted man) inside the house. Every time the wild man become crazy, the door keeper could probably be unable to withstand the door. The better way is to do Samadhi, which could be assumed as a man which binds the wild man to a pole inside the house. But this also do not always succeed, because we cannot bind the wild man at all time (we cannot meditate all time). When we stop meditating, the more powerful desire could arise. The best way is to arise Panna, just like an advisor which reminds the crazy man, touch his mind and heart, makes this wild man realize the uselessness of his crazy desire. I think we could arise panna to counter-attact the sex desire, by meditating on corpse (I believe it is in SatiPattana Sutta). By the way, I try to find pictures of beautiful lady corpse until it is destructed to skull and bones, but it is not succeed. If somebody has it, please send me the address. As I mention above, it is an idiot idea, every smile and laugh is appreciated. Sabbe Satta Bhavantu Sukhitatta. Thanks, Eaglenarius 24696 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:57pm Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, Howard, Jim and all, Howard, thanks for those questions, they'll need more time than I have available today. Instead of writing to dsg, I should be preparing a discussion paper for Cooran. (Three months notice just wasn't enough!) Sarah and Jim, your "simple living" conversation would make a great discussion paper. I might simply print out the latest message (24671), if you don't mind. Virtually all of the Cooran group have either tried or want to try, living the simple, rural life. Some of us still are: Reg's 'home among the gum trees' isn't much more sophisticated than the one I built on my farm. (I never got around to that external wall in the bathroom. Showering was a bracing experience in winter and accompanied by toads around your feet in summer.) > Rather like 'solitude', I think > there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and > then fewness of wishes being the opposite of craving. This is great material! When there is no craving, there is fewness of wishes; when there is craving, there is no fewness of wishes. We need to know which of the two exists right now -- no matter which it is. That is when satipatthana happens. No point in waiting for changed physical surroundings; satipatthana can only happen now. And as a bonus, a moment of satipatthana has fewness of wishes! Thanks for all your work. I'll have time to go surfing after all. Kind regards, Ken H 24697 From: Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:38pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/28/03 10:00:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, Howard, Jim and all, > > Howard, thanks for those questions, they'll need more > time than I have available today. ========================== Thank *you*. What you had to say was very interesting to me, and it set me to thinking along what may be very useful lines. In addition, it seems to have had another salutary effect: Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find much more there than has seemed to be the case to me. Now, mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24698 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Suan and all, > Dear Jim, Sara, Christine, and all > > How are you? > > The Pali term that occurred to me when I first read Jim's plans to go > off-line and hibernate was nikkhama paaramiitaa undertaken without > ordination for a short period of time. Thank-you for thinking of this. Although you seem to stand by the spelling 'nikkhama' in your response to Christine, don't you think it should be 'nekkhamma' as one of the ten paaramiitas (see under 'paaramii' in PED)? Anyway, it's a Pali term I'm not too familiar with, and one which I would have to look into. Can you point to a good Pali text for further study? > Jim's plans sound to me physical distancing from usual busy > engagements. > > Even though nikkhama paaramiitaa is best fulfilled as an ordained > bhikkhu or as a ten-precept Theravada nun or as a Mahayana bhikkhuni > (like in the case of a controversial Thai female professor did with > the help of Taiwanese Mahayana bhikkhunis), lay people like us can > also fulfil it in many forms if in limited capacities. > > All forms of nikkhama are designed to free ourselves from the usual > obligations of social, societal and interpersonal engagements. > > Ironically, the question an aspirant nikkhama seeker needs to ask > oneself is how to fund this luxury of disengagement in a western > acquisitive materialistic society like Australia. It appears that > only rich people can afford nikkhama paaramiitaa, the luxury of > disengagement, - the societal disengagement in particular. > > Everyone in a western society like Australia is conditioned to fulfil > the obligations of societal engagements to live. Societal > disengagement means beginning with deprivation of livelihood leading > to unprotected homelessness and untimely ending with death - yes, in > the rich First World. > > Thus, unless you have already amassed funds for living expenses to > last for the rest of your life, nikkhama paaramiitaa at the level of > complete societal disengagement cannot be fulfilled. I live in Canada which is a British commonwealth country like yours, and I would assume that our two countries share a lot in common as far as the social structures and the standard of living are concerned. I was never a wealthy person when young yet I was able to retire permanently at the age of 32 in late '79 with the help of a small disability pension I started receiving later the following year which I still receive. I had decided at the time that I would spend the rest of my life devoted to the study and practice of dhamma, my career of choice as it were. Actually, I never did have a career, I just earned my keep by taking on the odd temporary or part-time job and found that I could live reasonably well on a total of three months wages per year -- so you could say that the working part of my life was one of a semi-retiree. Although my income has always remained small I think I have managed quite well with my frugal lifestyle and the ability to save substantial amounts of money from which I was able to purchase my own private hermitage in 1988 and since then I have been able to give up half of my pension income because I just didn't need the money and yet I now live on a third of my income and still continue to accumulate vast sums of money. Because of the interest income I receive from my savings, I think I could now manage without the pension. So from my own experience, I can't see why others who live in a Western society such as ours could not work something out. I'm sure it can be done. We just need more pioneers to show the way. I also think that if this ever turned into a social movement it could act as a healthy counterforce to Western materialism and help alleviate some of our social problems. Best wishes, Jim 24699 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:56pm Subject: side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, ------------------ > I *think* that what you are saying is > . . > > There arise, at differing times, and due to differing > conditions, various *differing* hardness rupas. Any > particular hardness rupa that arises carries with it a > specific affective flavor - a specific degree and kind > of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral "taste" which is a > feature of that particular rupa, and may well differ > from the vedanic flavor of otherwise-conditioned > hardness rupas. > > . . . > > Have I understood correctly what you mean, ---------------- That's about the way I understand it -- the 'flavour' is inherent in the rupa-arammana. Rupas, such as hardness and colour, must be either pleasant or unpleasant. I'm not sure that this characteristic is actually conditioned by kamma; I *think* that kamma simply determines which rupa will be detected -- a pleasant one or an unpleasant one. The detection of the 'flavour' of a rupa is dependent on contact (phassa). When the body-base contacts a tactile rupa, phassa is strong enough for the flavour to be experienced as either pleasant physical feeling or unpleasant physical feeling -- never neutral. Whenever body contact *seems* to be accompanied by neutral physical feeling, that is due to our inadequate awareness. When rupa contacts other sense bases, however, phassa is not strong enough for this 'flavour' to be detected. Therefore, eye, ear, nose or tongue-door consciousness is always accompanied by neutral physical feeling. When unpleasant physical feeling seems to accompany it -- for example when we taste a too-strong curry -- it is not tongue contact but body contact (with tactile object), that is responsible. ---------- > and, if so, > does the Abhidhamma explicitly present the intrinsic > understanding? ---------- I'm not good at providing references and my knowledge of the Abhidhamma is all second hand. But I'm sure its there. As I remember, Rob M also missed it on the first reading, so it must be hard to find. Kind regards, Ken H 24700 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 28-08-2003 06:30 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: . So 'result' > always and only refers (in this sort of context) to vipaaka? And vipaaka > always and only refers to rebirth? I should add something: kusala jhanacitta produces result only in the next life (provided the jhana does not decline) in the form of: rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and dying-consciousness. M:Is this ever applicable to kha.nika > rebirth? N: you mean momentary birth of each citta? 24701 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Icaro, I really rejoice at this news. I did not know they had a webside, since I am not a webgoer. I wish they would transl some of their messages for us. Nina. op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but seemed > to me that the level of discussions over there is very > high. 24702 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:07pm Subject: side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi Howard, > but I *am* saying that this little > back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of > abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly > study the Abhidhamma Pitaka. It's kind of you to say so. I only hope what I told you was right! If it wasn't, someone will say so soon enough. I won't look at the messages till I get back from Cooran -- no sense in spoiling my weekend :-) Ken H 24703 From: Sarah Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Oh Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, Howard, Jim and all, > > Howard, thanks for those questions, they'll need more > time than I have available today. Instead of writing to > dsg, I should be preparing a discussion paper for Cooran. > (Three months notice just wasn't enough!) > > Sarah and Jim, your "simple living" conversation would > make a great discussion paper. I might simply print out the > latest message (24671), if you don't mind. .... Classic! You're obviously THE expert on simple 'simply living';-) BUT, I'll make a deal - you have to report back to us in detail (or delegate at the very least and it doesn't sound like it'll be Reg;-)) .... > > Virtually all of the Cooran group have either tried or > want to try, living the simple, rural life. Some of us > still are: Reg's 'home among the gum trees' isn't much > more sophisticated than the one I built on my farm. (I > never got around to that external wall in the bathroom. > Showering was a bracing experience in winter and > accompanied by toads around your feet in summer.) .... Some say that the good friend is half or all the holy life. In your case, I think it's the good wife;-) .... > > > Rather like 'solitude', I think > > there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and > > then fewness of wishes being the opposite of craving. > > This is great material! When there is no craving, there > is fewness of wishes; when there is craving, there is no > fewness of wishes. We need to know which of the two > exists right now -- no matter which it is. That is when > satipatthana happens. No point in waiting for changed > physical surroundings; satipatthana can only happen now. > And as a bonus, a moment of satipatthana has fewness of > wishes! .... ;-) ..... > Thanks for all your work. I'll have time to go surfing > after all. .... We're all glad about that;-) I can tell you're going to have some great discussions. Remember the agenda so far as I can work out is: Christine: Accumulations and more Accumulations Ken H: Simple 'Simply Living': Reflections on a Surfboard Azita: The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way with the help of Chittapala's article on its way to DSG;-) Andrew: Ethical Right Livelihood in Swedish?? Steve: Qus on Patisambhidamagga requiring Christine's full travelling library Reg: Home Among the Gum Trees: Linking up with other Solitary Dwellers ***** Not sure who else will be there, but it sounds like a great mix to date and I wouldn't rely on getting any sleep. Look forward to the reports. Metta, Sarah ===== 24704 From: Pure Faith Date: Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:22pm Subject: News: Vietnam starts preservation work on mummified monks Hi everybody, An interesting read over at: http://www.buddhistnews.tv/ metta, pf ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vietnam starts preservation work on mummified monks Restoration work has begun in Vietnam to preserve the mummified remains of two Buddhist monks dating back over 300 years. Despite their age, the well-intact condition of the corpses continues to baffle scientists to this day. [snip]...... 24705 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 Hi Jeff, Glad to see you here - I think this is the first time you've posted. --- Jeff wrote: > Greetings Rob > > Maybe we can do an exchange? I don't have a cd burner, but I would be > more than happy to tape the couple of cd's that I listed for > Christine in exchange for the Pali, traditional chants, or whatever > you could make time for. It would be much appreciated as I can only > locate a few cd's here in Fresno, Ca. .... We've found out a little about you from your selection of CDs in your other message and I'm glad to see your interest in the Pali chants as well. I see you're from Fresno. Are you connected to the group there Kom has mentioned? If it doesn't ring a bell, then the answer is probably not. Maybe Kom can give more details. Anyway, please add anything else about your interest in Dhamma or how you found your way here. I look forward to further comments or contributions from you too - especially those based on the Theravada tradition;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24706 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bathtub musings 2 p.s. Hope you don't mind if we call you Jeff B. as we have another Jeff (Jhana Jeff) here. Sarah --- Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Glad to see you here - I think this is the first time you've posted. > > --- Jeff wrote: > Greetings Rob 24707 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from Prague Hi Peter St, Thanks for giving your intro and helping us not to get you confused with other Peters here;-) --- danny_shepherd wrote: > HI! > I would like to say a short hello to everybody in this dhamma group. > My name > is Peter and I presently live in Prague, Czech Republik, Europe. Ive > been > interested in buddhism for a few years. ... We certainly don't have many members from Prague or Eastern Europe - I believe there may be one other?? I'd be interested to know how you became interested in Buddhism and whether it was in English. From the web/internet? .... >This year I visited Wat Pah > Nanachat, Wat Pah Baan Taad, then I went to see Ajahn Jayasaro and > Ajahn > Jundee. This all was in Thailand. This raining season there is a monk > Ajahn > Chandako staying in Czech Republic so if you happen to be passing > drop me an > email and I give you more details. There is a short info on > www.volny.cz/chandako/en_index.htm .... I had a look. Thank you for the link. It would be good to hear anything more about your trip to Thailand too. Obviously you have a temple in Prague and it's good to hear about the community. Hope you find it useful here. Let us know if you have any questions, comments or disagreements on any topic or wish to start a new one. The posts can also be found here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Let me know if there's anything else we can help with. Metta, Sarah ====== 24708 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, I have a couple of other passages I’m hoping to come back on still, but I keep getting distracted by all the other exciting threads.....No Hurry;-) Back to this one: --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Larry: Hmm, seems like your argument doesn't add up. If carriages and > persons are perceived (or understood) to be impermanent, then that in > itself makes them perceived to have impermanent characteristics. .... If carriages and persons are perceived (or understood) to exist, then they are perceived to exist by sanna, citta and ditthi vipallasa (perversions of perception, mind and view) only. It doesn’t mean they exist. Therefore no sabhava (distinct nature). .... > If you assert that carriages and persons have no impermanent > characteristics then I think you are saying you believe carriages and > persons are permanent or at least not impermanent. Is that what you > believe? .... They have no impermanent characteristics, they are not permanent or impermanent. They don’t exist as Ken H and Howard were discussing. .... > Hypothetical Sarah (H.S.) might say yes, that is what I, H.S., believe > because I don't directly see the impermanent characteristics of > carriages and persons. In other words, I, H.S., don't directly see the > impermanent group of impermanent rupa that is called carriages nor the > impermanent group of impermanent khandhas that is called a person. .... H.S. might say no;-) H.S. doesn’t see anything. Panna understands rupas and the characteristics of rupas. No carriages or people in rupas. .... > In that case, what if someone else says they do see these rupas and > khandhas as impermanent and they call them carriages and persons. Who > has the right view? .... Panna. .... > I don't think we can understand anatta unless we understand precisely > what is denied in "anatta". So far, the only thing being denied is > permanence. Where is the belief or assumption of permanence? Do you > think a name is permanent? I'm not saying there is no such false belief > or assumption, but I think we have to identify it in experience. .... A name doesn’t exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over again. Does this clarify what I said, otherwise, pls let me know. Metta, Sarah ===== 24709 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Nina: Nina: " Dear Icaro, > I really rejoice at this news. I did not know they > had a webside, since I am > not a webgoer. > I wish they would transl some of their messages for > us. > Nina." ----------------------------------------------------- I think that this news is very inspiring! The high level of discussions are paramount! As Connie said at other message, a day without reading dsg news is a day missing!!!!!! (taking the indonesian phrasebook)about Bogor Group Online, you will find them at http://www.buddhistonline.com/ Selamat pagi, Ibu Van Gorkon! Nama saya Ícaro. Saya dari Brazil, Orang Brazil. Saya merasa senang!!!! HAHAH!!! That´s just the way I begun learning japanese and French!!! Unfortunately there´s not a Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op > icarofranca@y...: > > > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group > > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but > seemed > > to me that the level of discussions over there is > very > > high. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24710 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Re: L: 1. Re: "Dhammas without individual essence (asabhaava-dhamma) > include > the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. > Space and time belong to the last mentioned." > Why only "some concepts"? > ***** > S: I've read the Vism note carefully, checked the Sammohavinodani and so > > on and I can only say 'very good question' and I think it must be a > mistake. All concepts are asabhaava and some realities such as space. > Time is a concept as I understand. > ---------------------------- > Larry: The only thing I could think of is maybe this means that some > dhammas without individual characteristics, such as the attainment of > cessation and _some_ concepts such as space and time, can be objects of > panna, which is here characterized as insight knowledge beginning with > knowledge of rise and fall. .... Just to point out, this is a quote of Nanamoli’s, not from a text. OK, I think it should say that some dhammas without individual characteristics (asabhaava-dhamma), such as the attainment of cessation and some ‘non-concretely produced matter’ (anipphannaruupa). The latter are realities and can be known but to quote from CMA p241. Guide to #4 (B.Bodhi): “they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter but exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter.” B.Bodhi continues to add that they are not paramattha dhammas, but I can’t find this in the commentary. I think it would be more accurate to say they are not paramattha dhammas *with sabhaava*, but they are listed among the asabhaava rupas, hence paramattha. Much as been written before about space, bodily and vocal intimation and the continuity, decay and impermanence of rupas as examples of these. Perhaps Htoo or Nina will confirm this. I won’t start on ‘time’. Unless it is referring directly to the three characteristics of material phenomena just mentioned, I understand it to be a concept. I’m not familiar with the extra note Nanamoli gives on this. Larry, I think there are always bound to be some errors and possibly different understandings reflected in translations and comments. it would be the same if we went through CMA notes or anything else. I doubt anyone else is going through this text with the same fine tooth-comb that we are;-) I had read that n68 and quoted from it many times on DSG in discussions on sabhaava, but never noticed that point til you raised it. When B.Bodhi was in Hong Kong, I gave him pages from discussions highlighting possible errors in the translation of the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and especially in Soma’s introduction. I also pointed out keys parts of the commentary that were missing. His general response was that a very large quantity of this particular translation had been printed for free distribution and possibly parts of the commentary, such as one part about a parrot I recall, might have been left out for reasons relating to the readers’ susceptibility at the time of publication. He’s more interested to work on his new translations I think and rightly so. In any case, I don’t think anyone would change another writer’s own notes. There are a very few errors that have been raised here in Nyantiloka’s dictionary (often after very detailed discussions) and I’m keeping a bit of a note of them at the back of my copy, but unless ever asked, I’ll just let them be. Sarah ===== To summarise my vague understanding in progress here with a couple of amendments: parinipphanna (projected or directly knowable ) = only conditioned or ‘concretely produced’paramattha dhammas *with sabhaava* nipphanna (produced or experienced ) = paramattha dhammas, concepts and nirodhasamaapatti* NB nibbana is not parinipphanna or nipphanna. * see quote asabhaava rupas are anipphanna ruupa because they are not directly produced by kamma etc. ***** 24711 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Sarah: Sarah: " Much as been > written before about > space, bodily and vocal intimation and the > continuity, decay and > impermanence of rupas as examples of these." --------------------------------------------------- You post is very very interesting, Sarah! I could add that space, bodily and vocal intimations, etc are the 10 elements that are considered not real (anipphanannarupa), namely: 1. akasa - space Communication (viññatti) - 2. bodily language (kayaniññbatti) 3. vocal intimation (vagiviññatti) These two (2 and 3)are produced by mind. Mutable material qualities: 4. lightness (lahuta) 5. softness (muduta) 6. adaptability (kammaññata) These three are produced without kamma. Characteristics of material qualities (lakkhanarupa) 7. material productivity - beginning (upacaya) 8. continuity (santati) 9. decay (jarata) 10. impermanence (aniccata) So, one attentive reader can deduce that there are anipphanannarupa embodied with material qualities. Or better, there are lakkhanarupa that´s not real entities, like actions performed in a movie, for example! ------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: "Perhaps Htoo or Nina will confirm this. I won’t > start on ‘time’. Unless it > is referring directly to the three characteristics > of material phenomena > just mentioned, I understand it to be a concept. I’m > not familiar with the > extra note Nanamoli gives on this." ---------------------------------------------------- As a matter of fact, the anipphanannarupa can be defined as a Niyaama that has the space (akasha- viññati) at a support for time, expressed as mutable material characteristics! There´s much more on your post!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24712 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intelligence or wisdom Hi Christine (on return), --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > I guess I'm feeling frustrated at not understanding, or sometimes not > even being interested in, what others seem to understand so easily > and feel so enthusiastic about regarding the Dhamma. I read the > technical threads and the discussions between others and start to > feel a little discouraged. I used to think it was because of the > Pali - but it's not. ..... Just now as I wrote to Larry, I thought of your comments as I found myself getting into deep water;-) So what are the realities now while you’re catching up on these technical and non-technical posts? Whether it’s visible object, thinking, discouragement, joy, annoyance, confusion or whatever else, that’s all there is to be known and this ‘knowing’ is the only kind of ‘intelligence’ or ‘wisdom’ that matters in the slightest. Just one reality and then gone....Anatta;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 24713 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:33am Subject: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? hi all, I just got the Pali Text Societies Pali english dictionary by T.W. Rhys Davids a few days ago and apparently is not in English alphabetical order. Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me or point me to a reference for the Pali alphabet order in English alpha. Gratitudes again to this entire group ! Peace and Metta, n () r i 24714 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/28/03 11:57:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------------ > >I *think* that what you are saying is > > > . . > > > >There arise, at differing times, and due to differing > >conditions, various *differing* hardness rupas. Any > >particular hardness rupa that arises carries with it a > >specific affective flavor - a specific degree and kind > >of pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral "taste" which is a > >feature of that particular rupa, and may well differ > >from the vedanic flavor of otherwise-conditioned > >hardness rupas. > > > > > . . . > > > >Have I understood correctly what you mean, > > ---------------- > > That's about the way I understand it -- the 'flavour' is > inherent in the rupa-arammana. Rupas, such as hardness and > colour, must be either pleasant or unpleasant. I'm not > sure that this characteristic is actually conditioned by > kamma; I *think* that kamma simply determines which rupa > will be detected -- a pleasant one or an unpleasant one. > > The detection of the 'flavour' of a rupa is dependent on > contact (phassa). When the body-base contacts a tactile > rupa, phassa is strong enough for the flavour to be > experienced as either pleasant physical feeling or > unpleasant physical feeling -- never neutral. Whenever > body contact *seems* to be accompanied by neutral > physical feeling, that is due to our inadequate > awareness. > > When rupa contacts other sense bases, however, phassa is > not strong enough for this 'flavour' to be detected. > Therefore, eye, ear, nose or tongue-door consciousness is > always accompanied by neutral physical feeling. When > unpleasant physical feeling seems to accompany it -- for > example when we taste a too-strong curry -- it is not > tongue contact but body contact (with tactile object), > that is responsible. > > ---------- > >and, if so, > >does the Abhidhamma explicitly present the intrinsic > > >understanding? > ---------- > > I'm not good at providing references and my knowledge of > the Abhidhamma is all second hand. But I'm sure its > there. As I remember, Rob M also missed it on the first > reading, so it must be hard to find. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ One of the main things I have gained from our brief discussion on this issue is the self-correction I have made of a previously unrealized mistake I had been making. Ironically, my mistake was *contrary* to my usual phenomenalist take on things. The error, and I do think it was an error, was to informally think of rupas as self-sufficient in the following sense: I was, for example, thinking of hardness as a unitary, mind-independent rupa constituting *one* thing, and a separate appropriate mind-door vi~n~nana, conditioned to observe that rupa with a certain vedanic taste, and then these two separate phenomena coming together in contact. But, what I think is probably closer to the facts is that hardness is not a single rupa, but is a category of rupas; in any context, a variety of conditions, including one's own kamma, create the potential for the arising/actualization of a *particular* hardness-rupa to be experienced with characteristics, including type and degree of vedanic taste, specific to that hardness-rupa but not necessarily to others. Once certain conditions, arise, the rupa, as a specific potential arammana, arises, and when and if the necessary full complement of conditions has finally arisen, the rupa is actualized by contact. The main point here, putting aside the potentiality-actuality business, which may be problematical or at least debatable, is that there are, even for a single namarupic stream, different hardness rupas that arise, with differing characteristics, and not just the "same" hardness rupa arising at different times and perceived differently at different times. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24715 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Dear Nori: Nori: " Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me or > point me to a > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English > alpha. > > Gratitudes again to this entire group !" ---------------------------------------------------- Nori, you can find the original alphabetical transliteration of T.W. Rhys-Davies at http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit00.jpg http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit01.jpg http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit02.jpg http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit03.jpg He, and other scholars,had used three tipes of "Missionary Alphabet" to transliterate Sanskrit, Pali, Arabic and Pahlavi. Since this classification is still in use, but with corrections, you must take a look also on "Coding Standards" at http://www.sacred-texts.com/stand.htm. ( Wow, Nori! How can I get a copy of T.W. Rhys-Davies´work ? At Amazon´s ?) Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24716 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] side issue; was Re: Vism XIV, 7 Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/29/03 2:11:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >but I *am* saying that this little > >back &forth between us has added to my appreciation of > >abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly > >study the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > It's kind of you to say so. I only hope what I told you was > right! If it wasn't, someone will say so soon enough. I > won't look at the messages till I get back from Cooran -- no > sense in spoiling my weekend :-) > > Ken H > ============================ Don't worry about that. What you said may be "right" or "wrong". What I have thought about it may also be "right" or "wrong". We'll both just keep looking, investigating, studying, and keeping on with our own programs of practice as we interpret the Dhamma to teach and doing the best we can. Meanwhile, with or without errors on the part of either of us, I have been (and continue to be) benefiting from our discussion. I hope it is of some use to you as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24717 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: Intelligence or wisdom --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Do intelligence and wisdom correlate in any way? Does lack of > intelligence mean that panna cannot arise? I wonder if there are > different sorts of intelligence, or if intelligence fluctuates within > the same person. Hi Christine (and others on this thread), I think you ask a very good question and raise an important point. No, I don't believe that wisdom has anything to do with intelligence. The Buddha said nothing about intelligence being a requirement for enlightenment. After all, just what type of intelligence would be required? According to Howard Gardner, noted social scientist, there are in fact eight different types of intelligences which we all have to varying degrees: Verbal- Linguistic, Math-Logic, Spatial, Bodily-Kinesthetic, Musical, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, and Naturalist. Which one is needed most to lead to wisdom? In simple terms, none of them. In the Sonadanda Sutta, The Qualities of a True Brahmin, the Buddha explains very simply how an arahant comes to be, "A disciple goes forth and practices the moralities; he guards the sense-doors, etc. That, Brahmin, is morality. He attains the four jhanas; he attains various insights, and the cessation of the corruptions. Thus he develops wisdom. That, Brahmin, is wisdom." Thus the Buddha put into a nutshell, without elaboration, how to have wisdom: morality and meditation. Seems relatively simple to me. Therefore, I don't see how such detailed discussions of nama and rupa, using archaic Pali terms, is truly necessary for panna to arise (but, let`s face facts, some people need them to feel safe). It appears to me that you are also coming to this realization. Good for you. Don't blame yourself or distrust your instincts. I think they are spot on! Metta, James 24718 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Hi Jim, Suan, Nori & All, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Suan and all, > Thank-you for thinking of this. Although you seem to stand by the > spelling 'nikkhama' in your response to Christine, don't you think it > should be 'nekkhamma' as one of the ten paaramiitas (see under > 'paaramii' in PED)? Anyway, it's a Pali term I'm not too familiar > with, and one which I would have to look into. Can you point to a good > Pali text for further study? ..... Look f/w to more from Suan on this - enjoying your responses on this thread. Just butting in here briefly as I had pulled out the Rhys Davids dict prompted by Nori’s qu - surprised that there is no Pali alphabet at the beginning.... Like Jim, I was only familiar with ‘nekkhama’ p.377, Nori but also find ‘nikkhama’ p.353 with a brief entry, (more for nikkhamati - to go forth, leave the household life behind' etc). So, everyone’s right;-) "Nekkhama: [formally a derivation fr nikhamma by its semantic affinity to nikkhanta, in which the metaphorical sense has entirely superseded the literal one........In any case the connection with kaama is pre-eminently felt in the connotation of n. as shown in var. passages" etc -lots of refs. Too late and tired to type more, but would be glad Jim if you look at these past posts on nekkhama with many textual references and give any comments: Nekkhama (Renunciation) 13256, 14766, 15013, 15207, 15055, 23426, 23481 Suan may have more references he likes for nikkhamati - there seem from the dict to be lots in the Jatakas and a few others listed. Jim, I’ll get back later on our other related thread and I’m sure we’ll be hearing more after the Cooran mob return as well;-) Nori, Jim and Suan are the much bettert people to guide you with your Pali dict qus. Until you’re more familiar with the alphabet, you may find it helpful to either write a key at the front of the dict: A p.1 AA p.92 etc or, as I did, to put narrow coloured post-it tabs marking the letters at the tops of the pages. (Anything to help...) Sooner or later you find out that it saves a lot of time to learn the alphabet which apart from one or two odd-bods is very logical and based on the phonetic sound and place of expression with tongue and teeth. So you have to learn it by by pronouncing the sounds, I think... a, aa, i, ii, u, uu, e, k, kh, g, gh etc.... Slowly it gets easier....I still sometimes lose or mix up the place of the ~n or n as I just did. Jim or Suan, pls let me know if I’m confusing him. Metta, Sarah p.s Icaro, you may have to order this dict from PTS (see links for their website and details). I like it and find it's quite big enough for me and my needs;-) ====== 24719 From: Sarah Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intelligence or wisdom Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Therefore, I don't see how such detailed discussions of nama and > rupa, using archaic Pali terms, is truly necessary for panna to arise > (but, let`s face facts, some people need them to feel safe). .... This must be a very insecure group...;-) Anyway, it's true James that your Egypt diary installments and other reflections are a good break for us all after dissecting those namas and rupas. Looking forward to No3 (and you know I mean it!!). Meanwhile, off for some nice safe dreams after analysing the Pali dictionary;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 24720 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan > Dear Mike, > op 28-08-2003 06:30 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > . So 'result' > > always and only refers (in this sort of context) to vipaaka? And vipaaka > > always and only refers to rebirth? > I should add something: kusala jhanacitta produces result only in the next > life (provided the jhana does not decline) in the form of: > rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and dying-consciousness. > M:Is this ever applicable to kha.nika > > rebirth? > N: you mean momentary birth of each citta? Yes, I did. I do realize that 'result' of kusala jhaanacitta in the sense of rebirth produces result only in the next life. So my question should have been, 'does 'result' refer only to future lives? Are there no 'results' that are not future rebirths? Thanks again, mike 24721 From: Nanapalo Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Icaro, anumodana visited www.buddhistonline.com In the website, Dhamma Study Group Bogor is only involved in discussion forum, question and answer together with Bhikkhu Uttamo from Sangha Theravada Indonesia and The DSGBogor put some articles concerning Abhidhamma weekly morning break discussion at our member's house. warm regards, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: "icaro franca" To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > Dear Nina: > > Nina: " Dear Icaro, > > I really rejoice at this news. I did not know they > > had a webside, since I am > > not a webgoer. > > I wish they would transl some of their messages for > > us. > > Nina." > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > I think that this news is very inspiring! > The high level of discussions are paramount! As > Connie said at other message, a day without reading > dsg news is a day missing!!!!!! > (taking the indonesian phrasebook)about Bogor Group > Online, you will find them at > > http://www.buddhistonline.com/ > > Selamat pagi, Ibu Van Gorkon! > Nama saya Ícaro. Saya dari Brazil, Orang Brazil. > Saya merasa senang!!!! > > HAHAH!!! That´s just the way I begun learning > japanese and French!!! Unfortunately there´s not a > Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op > > icarofranca@y...: > > > > > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor Group > > > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but > > seemed > > > to me that the level of discussions over there is > > very > > > high. > > 24722 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Icaro, ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 2:58 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > Unfortunately there´s not a > Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! What a great idea--something that would give an idiomatic and non-academic foot in the door to grammar, vocabulary, endings etc.--that would be priceless, I think, at least for boneheads like myself. Wish I had the time (not to mention the skill). mike 24723 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:45am Subject: The Luxury Of Nikkhama: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists Dear Jim, Sarah, Christine, and all How are you? Jim wrote: "Thank-you for thinking of this. Although you seem to stand by the spelling 'nikkhama' in your response to Christine, don't you think it should be 'nekkhamma' as one of the ten paaramiitas (see under 'paaramii' in PED)? Anyway, it's a Pali term I'm not too familiar with, and one which I would have to look into. Can you point to a good Pali text for further study?" Thank you, Jim, for your correction. Yes, the correct spelling is nekkhamma, not nikkhama, nor nikkhamma when we refer to the ten perfections /fulfilments (dasa paaramiis). My mistake seems to have come from the habit of writing something as one pronounced it with a loose articulation. I completely forgot the term "nekkhamma" when I first wrote "nikkhama" to refer to this paaramii, as well as when I replied to Christine. This forgetfulness was exacerbated by looking up the dictionary and finding nikkhama and nikkhamati with the verbal root meanings for nekkhamma. There are, of course, many Pali texts for nikkhama and nikkhamma, but with meanings different from the intended meaning of paaramii. Nikkhama! Get out! (Nikkhama, Paapima) Section 506, Muulapa.n.naasa Pali, Majjhimanikaaya. Nikkhamma - after getting out. (Atha kho bhagavaa vihaaraa nikkhamma) Section 287, Siilakkhandavagga Pali, Diighanikaaya. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 24724 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:03am Subject: email problem Hi All, Sorry to use the list to announce this, but its easier for me. I had decided to start using another address, 'sukinder@k...' that I had but never used, so when I got it running, I immediately received around 50 messages dating as far back as Dec 2001. I came to know then, where all the mails I was supposed to have received but didn't, were. The problem seem to be connected to the fact that 'sukin@k...' uses the same server as this other address. It is quite embarrassing since some of them should have been replied to. So Nina, Sarah, Christine, Htoo, Dave and especially Mike, I apologize for any akusala aroused. Now I have decided to use both address, so hopefully there will be no problems of this sort in the future. Your patience is appreciated. Metta, Sukin. 24725 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Mike: Mike: "What a great idea--something that would give an > idiomatic and non-academic > foot in the door to grammar, vocabulary, endings > etc.--that would be > priceless, I think, at least for boneheads like > myself. Wish I had the time > (not to mention the skill)." ----------------------------------------------------- Well, Mike... I think that The Lonely Planet, Berlitz, Assimil, &c, hardly will copy with the idea of a Pali Phrasebook, Pali Sans Penne, Pali for travellers (!!!)and so on. But the hard work of pals like Ong Yong Peng at the Pali Group is providing us with plenty of material and exercises. As soon as I get a new printer, I will put all this material on ink, paper and binding... and I would advise to all in this group to make the same! It´s worthy material!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro P.S.: "Pali for Travelleres"...indeed... > > mike ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24726 From: Elias Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:46am Subject: personal parents all, this is more a personal problem. what i've seen and heard my parents (mom and stephfather), are very deluded. they have been formed by the society, mostly do what culture and tradition says. and also what we in buddhism call is in ignorance. They as the normal untrained human being do, think that objects outside the midn controlls the mind, only my mom knows that i want to ebcome a monk, she accepts it, but is really against it. Also she thinks it's really stupid to read books about buddhism etc, because you can belive on things without reading, simply, she have mostly never heard of buddhism and can't understand it. Also both my parents thinks in ways of rascism. So for me it's really hard, the best i think for me is to be very silent, and also in away avoid to be with my parents much. can you tell me some advice, and maybe how is it for you? /Elias 24727 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Nanapalo! Terima Kasih !!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro --------------------------------------------------- -- Nanapalo wrote: > Dear Icaro, > anumodana visited www.buddhistonline.com > In the website, Dhamma Study Group Bogor is only > involved in discussion > forum, question and answer together with Bhikkhu > Uttamo from Sangha > Theravada Indonesia and The DSGBogor put some > articles concerning > Abhidhamma weekly morning break discussion at our > member's house. > > warm regards, > selamat rodjali > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "icaro franca" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 4:58 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > > > > Dear Nina: > > > > Nina: " Dear Icaro, > > > I really rejoice at this news. I did not know > they > > > had a webside, since I am > > > not a webgoer. > > > I wish they would transl some of their messages > for > > > us. > > > Nina." > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I think that this news is very inspiring! > > The high level of discussions are paramount! As > > Connie said at other message, a day without > reading > > dsg news is a day missing!!!!!! > > (taking the indonesian phrasebook)about Bogor > Group > > Online, you will find them at > > > > http://www.buddhistonline.com/ > > > > Selamat pagi, Ibu Van Gorkon! > > Nama saya Ícaro. Saya dari Brazil, Orang > Brazil. > > Saya merasa senang!!!! > > > > HAHAH!!! That´s just the way I begun learning > > japanese and French!!! Unfortunately there´s not a > > Pali phrasebook on sale!!!! > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > op 28-08-2003 11:53 schreef icaro franca op > > > icarofranca@y...: > > > > > > > Nina, I took a peek at the Indonesian Bogor > Group > > > > on internet. I don´t understand indonesian but > > > seemed > > > > to me that the level of discussions over there > is > > > very > > > > high. ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24728 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] personal parents Elias, You have to go no further than the life story of Sariputta , Buddha's chief disciple. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html ) He also had his share of problems with the parents. His mom was particularly unsupportive, even after Sariputta attained enlightenment. But what happened in the end was it was exposed that even that mom did have the accumulations to be a stream-enterer. This doesnt mean that we have to 'shove in' our beliefs to our parents (or loved ones) . But it may mean that other people will have their own progress paths (at their own pace) and one can help others (to accelerate the pace) when he/she has enough ability to help him/herself. Regards, gayan ----- Original Message ----- From: Elias To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 11:46 AM Subject: [dsg] personal parents all, this is more a personal problem. what i've seen and heard my parents (mom and stephfather), are very deluded. they have been formed by the society, mostly do what culture and tradition says. and also what we in buddhism call is in ignorance. They as the normal untrained human being do, think that objects outside the midn controlls the mind, only my mom knows that i want to ebcome a monk, she accepts it, but is really against it. Also she thinks it's really stupid to read books about buddhism etc, because you can belive on things without reading, simply, she have mostly never heard of buddhism and can't understand it. Also both my parents thinks in ways of rascism. So for me it's really hard, the best i think for me is to be very silent, and also in away avoid to be with my parents much. can you tell me some advice, and maybe how is it for you? /Elias 24729 From: suzakico Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:07am Subject: Boehme and Myokonin (Pure land) FYI, here is a research I did on the subject: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/boehmeandmyokonin.html In spite of their religious background, their spiritual discovery seems to be stunningly similar in my eyes. This is more about Boehme: http://www.geocities.com/suzakico/boehme.html And, for Myokonin: http://www.geocities.co.jp/NatureLand/7243/myokoninjapaneseandenglish .html Good day, and good life! Kio 24730 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cooran weekend. Dear Christine, wonderful, my thoughts are with you all. I like to hear too about the outward circumstances. And of course your discussions. You have eminent people in your circle. Have a fruitful weekend, Nina. op 28-08-2003 22:19 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > I'm taking a brief leave of absence (two or three days) from dsg for > the Cooran Get-together. 24731 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Dear Larry and Sarah, Larry, this is very thoughtful. It does not matter if you go on, because all the next paras in Vis text explain what was in short about the divisions of two- fold, threefold, etc. and the Co goes along with it. It all fits very well. For myself, I never know what happens. When sentences become too difficult I may skip things. But then I see something captivating when reading on and I continue. It has become my bedside litterature. Sarah: sabhaava dhamma: yes, with its own distinct nature or characteristic. When it is plural, I find natures strange, what to do. And sometimes I avoid characteristics when there is this word lakkhana in the same sentence. Stilted language! I may translate it differently in different contexts. Essence: no, Icaro does not like this either. Nina op 29-08-2003 00:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: >> I was going to pick up the pace a little but if you are going to > translate the entire subcommentary I won't. 24732 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:bootcamp diary. op 29-08-2003 00:28 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > > Sometimes I look at the luggage I intend to carry > on to travel N: Do not forget paper and pencil, to scribble a bootcamp diary. Perhaps it would be interesting to jot down which kinds of vipakas through which sense-doors (one at a time) and how did the cittas with hetu react to those impressions? Maybe the food tasted very good, but there was bodily pain. When there is patience there is kusala citta. I find I have patience for certain objects but not for others. When my father critizes the music I play for him I lose my patience.I try so hard and then he does not like it. Fortunately his dog likes baroque music. Nina. 24733 From: icaro franca Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:bootcamp diary. Dear Nina: Nina: "Do not forget paper and pencil, to scribble a > bootcamp diary. Perhaps it > would be interesting to jot down which kinds of > vipakas through which > sense-doors (one at a time) and how did the cittas > with hetu react to those > impressions? > Maybe the food tasted very good, but there was > bodily pain. When there is > patience there is kusala citta." ------------------------------------------------------ Good idea! This method of "mental annotation" on casual events is very good to develop Satipatthana. I can use free time on boot camp to keep a registry of the linkage of impressions that reach sense-doors, how they reage and take a definite nama-rupa on my mind. Original Dependence can be a good analogy to these processes! Anyway, Nina, you are the master of applications of Dhamma at diary life!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Nina: "I find I have > patience for certain objects > but not for others. When my father critizes the > music I play for him I lose > my patience.I try so hard and then he does not like > it. Fortunately his dog > likes baroque music." --------------------------------------------------- Patience, patience... toujours le patience! The only things I will miss on boot camp are the DSG news and the Cartoon Network...hahahahahahahah!!!! But I will try send to you all my dhamma diary! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24734 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? hi icaro, Thank you for the references; I will check them out. The re-issue copy of the original PTS Pali-English dictionary (pub. in 1921) is available from Oxford in the UK, and also in the US: Agents In North America (For all Trade & Non-Member Customers in Canada and the USA) Pariyatti Book Service P.O. Box 15926 Seattle, WA 98115 USA Tel: +1 (206) 522-8175 Fax: +1 (206) 522-8295 E-mail: sales@v... www.vrpa.com Trade Distributors LAVIS MARKETING 73 Lime Walk Headington Oxford OX3 7AD Tel: (01865) 767575 Fax: +44 1865 750079 e-mail: orders@l... They in fact, carry the entire Pali cannon from the Pali Text Society, I think both in Pali and also translated into english; I am not sure but I think they are among the best translations. peace and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Nori: > Nori: " Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me > or > > point me to a > > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English > > alpha. > > > > Gratitudes again to this entire group !" > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Nori, you can find the original alphabetical > transliteration of T.W. Rhys-Davies at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit00.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit01.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit02.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit03.jpg > > He, and other scholars,had used three tipes of > "Missionary Alphabet" to transliterate Sanskrit, Pali, > Arabic and Pahlavi. Since this classification is still > in use, but with corrections, you must take a look > also on "Coding Standards" at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/stand.htm. > > ( Wow, Nori! How can I get a copy of T.W. > Rhys-Davies´work ? At Amazon´s ?) > > Mettaya, Ícaro > ===== 24735 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is solitude not dukkha? As well as absence of love and friendsh... Hi Nori, By lust I mean sensual desire and passion. Regarding the question "how is lust cut off?" I think the following discourse is relevant: Samyutta Nikaya VIII.4 Ananda Sutta Ananda (Instructions to Vangisa) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn08-004.html Regarding the question "what is it that needs to be cut off ?" I would think it is craving that needs to be cut off... Peace, Victor 24736 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) Elias wrote: > The human is very > egoistic, babies are born because egoism, desire. Hi elias, There is much truth to what you say. This reminds me of when I once saw, on some Nature program on television, I think it was, sea horses mating. I was really shocked to see this: when they mate, the penis goes in, (and a strange looking penis it is), and before it ejaculates sperm into its mate, the penis goes deep into its mates interior and begins to sweep out any existing sperm from its insides, making a very large effort to clean out any sperm that might have resided in it from a prior seahorse that mated with it; after all the prior sperm was cleaned out then it would deposit its own sperm. This goes to show that the seahorses are not active in sex just in order to reproduce its race or out for sensual pleasure; There is a huge egoistic element to it. I do not like to think this is always the case with humans. ... just thought I'd share that. peace, nori 24737 From: m. nease Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Incipient Recruit Franca: ----- Original Message ----- From: icaro franca To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! I couldn't agree more--Yong Peng's list is priceless (especially Nina's contributions!). mike 24738 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Passivity in Buddhism hi Ray, all, me: > Most people in this world suffer, not due to mental dispositions, but > instead due to physical conditions. > > Whether it is war, disease, lack of food, lack of sustenance (i.e. > money for shelter, food, clothing, education, etc.) > > The only solution to the suffering in my example, and the latter case > (s) is to attend to the physical condition through action to > alleviate the condition! Ray: I again disagree, the majority of the people in the world are not suffering from starving, but suffering because they cannot get what they want, cannot kept what they get, what they don't want, etc. It is easy to reply this, living in a place (in my case the USA) which has all the basic requirements for life: food, water, shelter, medicine, absence of an active threatening war (present here), disease, etc. I cannot say for sure, i.e. whether most people in this world suffer from a lack of life sustenance since I have not done a census on what people suffer from, but this much I can say: Here I and many others sit with most of our efforts focused on liberating ourselves from suffering. The suffering which most of us are afflicted with, has nothing to do with the lack of basic requirements for life; most or all of us have them. We suffer from more frivolous things. And so, here we are, trying to liberate ourselves from the suffering of frivolous things, while there exist people out there suffering from the lack of the basic things that are necessary for life. Knowing this, it is difficult to believe what I do (my practice) is virtuous at times. There are those out there, however few, who are selfless, sacrificing their own lives to go out there (even going out of their way to fly out to another country) to try and relieve these basic necessary physical conditions, which cause people great suffering, putting their own frivolous sufferings aside. I don't know if this is natural to do (or founded on wholesome intention/mind) but it makes me wonder, what indeed is right action ? Enough has been said on this topic so I will not burden anyone with it any further. Thanks for all the great comments. peace and metta, nori 24739 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi icaro (or anyone with info), Thanks again for the references. While these pages describe the transliteration for the letters of the various alphabets, it does not really give any order of the alphabets as they are ordered in this dictionary (in english alpha). If anyone has any idea about how they are ordered, it would greatly be appreciated. thanks, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, icaro franca wrote: > Dear Nori: > Nori: " Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me > or > > point me to a > > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English > > alpha. > > > > Gratitudes again to this entire group !" > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Nori, you can find the original alphabetical > transliteration of T.W. Rhys-Davies at > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit00.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit01.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit02.jpg > http://www.sacred-texts.com/sbe/xlit03.jpg > snip ... 24740 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi Nori, I don't think there is a fixed order but an "accepted" order is as follows: a, aa, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, ~n, .t, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, h I copied this out of a glossary. I'm not sure if it follows PTS. Corrections welcome. Larry 24741 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi Larry, Yes, thank you, that is right on point. ... except for some reason there is no words with aa. Where did you get this ? Also, do you understand the logic behind the order? thanks again, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I don't think there is a fixed order but an "accepted" order is as > follows: > > a, aa, i, u, e, o, k, g, c, j, ~n, .t, t, d, n, p, b, m, y, r, l, v, s, > h > > I copied this out of a glossary. I'm not sure if it follows PTS. > Corrections welcome. > > Larry 24742 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:24pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 10 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 10. 3. In the second dyad, that "subject to cankers" is that which is the object of cankers. That "free from cankers" is not their object. This dyad is the same in meaning as the mundane and supramundane. The same method applies to the dyads 'subject to cankers and free from cankers, associated with cankers and dissociated from cankers' (Dhs. p.3), and so on. So it is of two kinds as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on. 24743 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Hi Nori, aa is long a. a with a line over it. Larry ------------------------------ N: for some reason there is no words with aa. 24744 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 From Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary" http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm ásava: (lit: influxes), 'cankers', taints, corruption's, intoxicant biases. There is a list of four (as in D. 16, Pts.M., Vibh.): the canker of sense-desire (kámásava), of (desiring eternal) existence (bhavásava), of (wrong) views (ditthásava), and of ignorance (avijjásava). A list of three, omitting the canker of views, is possibly older and is more frequent in the Suttas, e.g. in M. 2, M. 9, D. 33; A. III, 59, 67; A. VI, 63. - In Vibh. (Khuddakavatthu Vibh.) both the 3-fold and 4-fold division are mentioned. The fourfold division also occurs under the name of 'floods' (ogha) and 'yokes' (yoga). Through the path of Stream-Entry, the canker of views is destroyed; through the path of Non-Returning, the canker of sense-desire; through the path of Arahatship, the cankers of existence and ignorance. M. 2 shows how to overcome the cankers, namely, through insight, sense-control, avoidance, wise use of the necessities of life, etc. For a commentarial exposition, see Atthasálini Tr. I, p. 63f: II, pp. 475ff. Khínásava, 'one whose cankers are destroyed', or 'one who is canker-free', is a name for the Arahat or Holy One. The state of Arahatship is frequently called ásavakkhaya, 'the destruction of the cankers'. Suttas concluding with the attainment of Arahatship by the listeners, often end with the words: "During this utterance, the hearts of the Bhikkhus were freed from the cankers through clinging no more" (anupádáya ásavehi cittáni vimuccimsú'ti). 24745 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi all, As "subject to cankers and not subject to cankers" is the same as "mundane and supramundane", I take this to mean all mundane panna of everyone except arahants is subject to cankers and all supramundane panna arising in the 4 path moments and 4 path fruitions is not subject to cankers. An arahant's panna is not subject to cankers whether mundane or supramundane. Larry ------------------------ "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 10. 3. In the second dyad, that "subject to cankers" is that which is the object of cankers. That "free from cankers" is not their object. This dyad is the same in meaning as the mundane and supramundane. The same method applies to the dyads 'subject to cankers and free from cankers, associated with cankers and dissociated from cankers' (Dhs. p.3), and so on. So it is of two kinds as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on. 24746 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Sarah: "A name doesn't exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over again." Hi Sarah, I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. They are as real as feelings, mental images (meanings), affections, and intentions. They certainly arise with a beginning, middle and end. It is true that sometimes names are mistaken for their referent, the named. More often meanings are misunderstood as their referent. Because names and meanings are remembered they give the impression of permanence. Present experience using more advanced methods of knowing (beyond sanna) is the way to combat the tyranny of memory. Mistaking the impermanent as permanent is the most basic error as far as the Buddha is concerned. Mistakes exist. They are called wrong view. There is no need to deny the existence of names here. What's the point? Larry 24747 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Icaro, > Well, Mike... I think that The Lonely Planet, > Berlitz, Assimil, &c, hardly will copy with the idea > of a Pali Phrasebook, Pali Sans Penne, Pali for > travellers (!!!)and so on. I like you very much, so I am going to suggest you something which I think is going to be useful to you. If you must learn one new language, make it Thai. I know that it isn't easy since it doesn't use Roman script, but then again you do not have to learn to write, just hear and understand. In anycase, a man of great intelligence such as you, would not see this as a problem at all, no?! Why this suggestion? So that I can then send you hundreds of hours of Dhamma talk by K. Sujin on MP3. For me they are most the precious sound in the world. If on the other hand you do not feel like it, I could send you as a New Years gift, a few tapes I collected before discovering Abhidhamma. They are by some Western Buddhists of both Theravada and Mahayana tradition. I would not give these to others for the reason that I am givng them what I consider to be miccha ditthi, but I think that you are above these negative influence and will take out only what is useful and good, leaving out the rest. ;-) So let me know what you prefer!! Metta, Sukin. 24748 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question for Sarah re: experience in Sri Lanka (in solitude?) hi sarah, I asked mike n. this also, and I think I can predict the answer, but i figured i'd ask. What do you think life would be like dwelling in a forest in Sri Lanka (or any other thera-buddhist dominated country), living off alms with a small backpack and tent (moving from place to place; as opposed to a monastery)? Would it be any more conducive to the ending of dukkha (than living as a householder in a busy city with a job with long hours) ? metta, nori 24749 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Mail Bouncing Hi, all - I just tried twice to send a reply to Larry's recent post to Sarah about names, and each time it came back as undeliverable. The message I got back included started as follows: ********************** The original message was received at Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:01:51 -0400 (EDT) from root@localhost ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com.: >>> DATA <<< 554 this message violates our delivery policy which disallows Bcc's (#5.7.1) 554 ... Service unavailable *************************** Ideas, anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24750 From: upasaka_howard Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - I'm trying to reply this time from the web site. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah: "A name doesn't exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and > satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are > taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the > characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct > natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over > again." > > Hi Sarah, > > I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. They are as real as > feelings, mental images (meanings), affections, and intentions. They > certainly arise with a beginning, middle and end. It is true that > sometimes names are mistaken for their referent, the named. More often > meanings are misunderstood as their referent. Because names and meanings > are remembered they give the impression of permanence. Present > experience using more advanced methods of knowing (beyond sanna) is the > way to combat the tyranny of memory. Mistaking the impermanent as > permanent is the most basic error as far as the Buddha is concerned. > Mistakes exist. They are called wrong view. There is no need to deny the > existence of names here. What's the point? > > Larry ============================ I think that you are right in a sense and wrong in a sense, but mostly wrong. ;-) [Sorry!] Take the name 'tree'. In what sense are you right when you say that the name 'tree' exists? Well, there are certain sounds that have common acoustical features, and whenever we utter one of them we *say* that we have just used the name 'tree'. Each such utterance exists, though, even then, it is likely not a single paramattha dhamma, but, rather a structured sequence of paramattha dhammas summed up as a percept. But, and here is where I think you are wrong, each such utterance is *not* a name. The NAME 'tree' is pure concept, an abstraction; there is the thought (concept) of the name 'tree', and there are the utterances with beginnings, middles, and ends that are subsumed by that concept of the name 'tree', but the alleged name 'tree', per se, is not to be found anywhere - only sounds (and scribbles on paper) will be found, and, these, in fact, are also mental constructs. It is mere convention to speak of names, just as it is mere convention to speak of cars and trees and Buddhist e-mail groups. Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24751 From: Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi, Larry - Trying a third time to reply: In a message dated 8/29/03 10:08:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Sarah: "A name doesn't exist. I think the ideas of self, permanence and > satisfactoriness are very, very deep-rooted, Larry. While concepts are > taken for realities, there is no way of understanding the > characteristics of realities. As Nina pointed out, first the distinct > natures of namas and rupas have to be known precisely,over and over > again." > > Hi Sarah, > > I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. They are as real as > feelings, mental images (meanings), affections, and intentions. They > certainly arise with a beginning, middle and end. It is true that > sometimes names are mistaken for their referent, the named. More often > meanings are misunderstood as their referent. Because names and meanings > are remembered they give the impression of permanence. Present > experience using more advanced methods of knowing (beyond sanna) is the > way to combat the tyranny of memory. Mistaking the impermanent as > permanent is the most basic error as far as the Buddha is concerned. > Mistakes exist. They are called wrong view. There is no need to deny the > existence of names here. What's the point? > > Larry > ============================ I think that you are right in a sense and wrong in a sense, but mostly wrong. ;-) [Sorry!] Take the name 'tree'. In what sense are you right when you say that the name 'tree' exists? Well, there are certain sounds that have common acoustical features, and whenever we utter one of them we *say* that we have just used the name 'tree'. Each such utterance exists, though, even then, it is likely not a single paramattha dhamma, but, rather a structured sequence of paramattha dhammas summed up as a percept. But, and here is where I think you are wrong, each such utterance is *not* a name. The NAME 'tree' is pure concept, an abstraction; there is the thought (concept) of the name 'tree', and there are the utterances with beginnings, middles, and ends that are subsumed by that concept of the name 'tree', but the alleged name 'tree', per se, is not to be found anywhere - only sounds (and scribbles on paper) will be found, and, these, in fact, are also mental constructs. It is mere convention to speak of names, just as it is mere convention to speak of cars and trees and Buddhist e-mail groups. Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24752 From: Elias Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: desire for sex (living as a human being) all, when a mother so borns her son, thoughs arise not as follow: "this human being now have the oppertunity to live as a human being and have the oppertuinty to train the mind". but, thoughs arise as follows: "my child will be the way i want it as, it's my baby-boy who i will desire for my whole life." A human is born because desire, the mother simply wants a son, not to born a human being for its welfare. /Elias --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Elias wrote: > > > The human is very > > egoistic, babies are born because egoism, desire. > > > Hi elias, > > There is much truth to what you say. This reminds me of when I once > saw, on some Nature program on television, I think it was, sea horses > mating. I was really shocked to see this: when they mate, the penis > goes in, (and a strange looking penis it is), and before it > ejaculates sperm into its mate, the penis goes deep into its mates > interior and begins to sweep out any existing sperm from its insides, > making a very large effort to clean out any sperm that might have > resided in it from a prior seahorse that mated with it; after all the > prior sperm was cleaned out then it would deposit its own sperm. > > This goes to show that the seahorses are not active in sex just in > order to reproduce its race or out for sensual pleasure; There is a > huge egoistic element to it. I do not like to think this is always > the case with humans. > > ... just thought I'd share that. > > > peace, > nori 24753 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Sukin (& Icaro). --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > > I like you very much, so I am going to suggest you something which I > think is going to be useful to you. If you must learn one new > language, make it Thai. I know that it isn't easy since it doesn't > use Roman script, but then again you do not have to learn to write, > just hear and understand. In anycase, a man of great intelligence > such as you, would not see this as a problem at all, no?! > Why this suggestion? So that I can then send you hundreds of hours > of Dhamma talk by K. Sujin on MP3. For me they are most the precious > sound in the world. ..... While you're waiting for Icaro to catch up with Thai, why not send him just one or two English MP3s of discussion with KS? Even though they're not edited like the Thai, I think Icaro with his Pali knowledge could appreciate them. Mike is enjoying the Kaeng Krajan set, so perhaps that and the India set? Unfortunately, I don't think you can make it in time for bootcamp and his night-time listening. ..... > If on the other hand you do not feel like it, I could send you as a > New Years gift, a few tapes I collected before discovering > Abhidhamma. > They are by some Western Buddhists of both Theravada and Mahayana > tradition. I would not give these to others for the reason that I am > givng them what I consider to be miccha ditthi, ..... If one considers something to be miccha ditthi, could it be considered as a gift? Still, I know it's a kind intention and maybe there are parts you consider as samma ditthi too. .... >but I think that you > are above these negative influence and will take out only what is > useful and good, leaving out the rest. ;-) .... Only a sotapanna is beyond the negative influence of miccha ditthi for sure, I think. Anything can happen meanwhile by conditions..... Glad you've found all your lost mail, Sukin. Perhaps it will help prompt Mike to send all his great reminders on list for us all - here it all gets preserved and recycled;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 24754 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Icaro: they are realities, paramattha dhammas, but they are not concrete matter. Also lakkhanarupas, which are characteristics of rupas, not concrete matter, are classified as rupas. There are 28 rupa paramattha dhammas in all. Nina. op 29-08-2003 12:20 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > I could > add that space, bodily and vocal intimations, etc are > the 10 elements that are considered not real > (anipphanannarupa), namely: > > 1. akasa - space, etc.... 24755 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pali Dear Icaro, Could you send this message also to Pali yahoo, it will encourage Yong Peng and others, Nina. op 29-08-2003 17:46 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > But the hard work of pals like Ong Yong Peng at > the Pali Group is providing us with plenty of material > and exercises. As soon as I get a new printer, I will > put all this material on ink, paper and binding... > and I would advise to all in this group to make the > same! > It´s worthy material!!!! 24756 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] PTS Pali-Eng Dictionary - Pali Alphabetical Order help ??? Dear Nori, No problem. I just went over each letter and in front I wrote down say, letter a: page number where it starts. So for each letter. A nice quick way to find your way in the dict. I did the same for my Thai. This is again a different order.Also for the Buddhadatta dct which is small and very handy to look up things very quickly. Nina. op 29-08-2003 12:33 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > hi all, > > I just got the Pali Text Societies Pali english dictionary by T.W. > Rhys Davids a few days ago and apparently is not in English > alphabetical order. > > Would anyone be kind enough to explain to me or point me to a > reference for the Pali alphabet order in English alpha. > > Gratitudes again to this entire group ! > > > Peace and Metta, > > n () r i 24757 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Sarah: sabhaava dhamma: yes, with its own distinct nature or > characteristic. > When it is plural, I find natures strange, what to do. And sometimes I > avoid > characteristics when there is this word lakkhana in the same sentence. > Stilted language! I may translate it differently in different contexts. > Essence: no, Icaro does not like this either. ..... A lot of people have trouble with sabhaava and particularly with indiv essence, esp. those who have come from a Mahayana background I think. I had long discussions with Howard on this. Suggestions: -distinct nature. Mostly we can avoid pl and say 'with their own distinct nature'. - distinct quality. Distinct qualities no prob. - specific nature/quality - particular nature/quality -individual quality perhaps if we want it to be clear that it's referring to sabhaava and keep closer to standard transl, but individual may sound suspect again. Mike or Howard would be able to give good feedback too. Metta, Sarah ===== 24758 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:48am Subject: Brahmajala Sutta- dhamma Dear Nina, Just quoting from the Brahmajala sutta reminded me that in the comy and subcomy to it, there are a lot of details on meanings of 'dhamma', p.121 BB transl. However, at a quick look I think you've covered all these meanings in your series and the passages may even be the same as ones you've quoted from elsewhere. Very similar to the comy to the Mulapariyaya sutta from memory. Metta, Sarah ===== 24759 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:59am Subject: Re: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding -- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear eddie, > I agree about science and dhamma. Could you give > more details about the 'samsara and rebirth games' question. What is it you want answered? > RobertK Sorry for the delay, by 'samsara and rebirth games' question, I mean why all these 'samsara and rebirth cycles'? I understand that we all (in all levels of existence) are entities going through these cycles, which is beginingless and endless. So are the world cycles. Thanks, Eddie. 24760 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Dear Mike, op 29-08-2003 16:31 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > So my question should > have been, 'does 'result' refer only to future lives? Are there no > 'results' that are not future rebirths? N: If we take result in the sense of vipaka: as far as I understand no, there are not. Nina. 24761 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Hi Mike (& Nina), --- "m. nease" wrote: > KS replied that there are two aspects of > bhava-ta.nhaa, with sassata-di.t.thi and without sassata-di.t.thi. [...] S:i.e attachment to becoming with or without wrong view. ..... Nina wrote: "Sassata di.t.thi: see Buddhist dict: belief in a soul that is lasting, forever. But there are many degrees of ditthi. Sassata seems to me an extreme form." ..... M:> I'd also like to hear more about sassata-di.t.thi. In conventional speech I think this is usually taken just to refer to the eternalist view. In the context > of abhidhamma, does this also refer to the view that anything lasts at all (beyond one kha.na)? [...] ..... I think the understanding is the same in the Abhidhamma and Suttanta. I understand eternalist views are inherently wrapped up in an idea of ‘self’ or identity in the ‘uninterrupted continuum’ that lasts for ever or even for two moments. Let me quote with details rather than speculate: ***** First straight from the Sammohavinodanii (commentary to the Vibhanga, 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka)2281: “’iti bhavadi.t.thisannissitaa vaa ti (’so they are either dependent on the view of existence’): they are either dependent thus on the eternity view; for it is the eternity view which is here ‘the view of existence’(vibhava-di.t.thi). For owing to the fact that all (wrong) views are included by the eternity and annihilation views (together), all these beings who hold (wrong) views are dependent on those two kinds of (wrong) view. This also is said: ‘this world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two things, on existence and non-existence’ (Sii17); and here, ‘existence’(atthitaa) is eternity, ‘non-existence’ is annihilation (uccheda). This firstly is the habitat of beings that are ordinary men dependent on the process.” ***** i.e dependent on wrong views as I read it. I’ve quoted extensively from this sutta before, so I can add the helpful comy notes: From B.Bodhi’s translation of the Kaccaanagotta Sutta and commentary, SN 11,Nidaanavagga,15(5): “This world, Kaccaana, for the most part depends upon a duality - upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence “ (Dvayanissito khvaaya.m Kaccaana loko yebhuyyena atthita~n c’eva natthita~n ca.) ..... Com notes (Spk): “ ‘For the most part’ (yebhuyyena) means for the great multitude, with the exception of the noble individuals (ariyapuggala). The notion of existence (atthitaa) is eternalism (sassata); the notion of nonexistence (natthitaa) is annihilationism (uccheda).” ..... Com notes (Spk-p.t): “The notion of existence is eternalism because it maintains that the entire world (of personal existence) exists forever. The notion of nonexistence is annihilationism because it maintains that the entire world does not exist (forever) but is cut off.” ..... Back to the Sutta: “ But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.” .... Com notes (Spk): “ ‘The origin of the world’: the production of the world of formations. ‘There is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world’: there does not occur in him the annihilationist view that might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding ‘They do not exist.” ..... Com notes (Spk-p.t): “The annihilationist view might arise in regard to the world of formations thus: ‘On account of the annihilation and perishing of beings right where they are, there is no persisting being or phenomenon.’ It also includes the wrong view, having these formations as its object, which holds: ‘There are no beings who are reborn.’ That view does not occur in him; for one seeing with right understanding the production and origination of the world of formations in dependence on such diverse conditions as kamma, ignorance, craving, etc, that annihilationist view does not occur, since one sees the uninterrupted production of formations.” ..... Com notes (Spk): “ ‘The cessation of the world’: the dissolution (bhanga) of formations.‘There is no notion of existence in regard to the world’; There does not occur in him the eternalist view which might arise in regard to phenomena produced and made manifest in the world of formations, holding ‘They exist’.” ..... Com notes (Spk-p.t): “The eternalist view mght arise in regard to the world of formations, taking it to exist at all times, owing to the apprehension of identity in the uninterrupted coninuum occurring in a cause-effect relationship. But that view ‘does not occur in him’; because he sees the cessation of the successively arisen phenomena and the arising of succesively new phenomena, the eternalist view does not occur.” ******* In the Brahmajala Sutta however, the 62 views are divided into more categories and eternalist views have a very specific meaning. I’m requoting some parts from a couple of my earlier posts here and adding a few extra notes. From Samyutta Nikaya (1V.7.3) and quoted by B.Bodhi in his intro to the Brahmajala Sutta, commentary and sub-commentary (BPS),we read: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world,...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist”. ***** In his introduction, B.Bodhi gives a summary of the eternalist views. “Ordinarily in the suttas the term ‘eternalism’ is used insiscriminately to signify any view positing an eternally existent entity......In this scheme [i.e as elaborated in Brahmajala sutta], the term is used in a more restricted sense to signify only views referring to the past which assert the eternal pre-existence of both the self and the world together....Three arise from retrocognitive experience of past lives and one from reasoning. The three cases based on recollection of past lives stem from a definite and real spiritual experience. A yogi, by means of effort and contemplative devotion, attains to a degree of mental concentration (samaadhi) of sufficient power to serve as the foundation for the abhi~n~naa or direct knowledge of recalling past lives....He then assumes an eternal self persisting through these periods.” In this detailed description of views, those concerned with eternal perpetuity are classified under ‘immortality’ views. In the sutta, Partial-Eternalism (ekaccasassatavaada) views are also given. I’ll quote one which is interesting: p.68 “In the fourth case, owing to what, with reference to what, are some honourable recluses and brahmins eternalists in regard to some things and non-eternalists in regard to other things, proclaiming the self and the world to be partly eternal and partly non-eternal? “Herein bhikkhus, some recluse or brahmin is a rationalist, an investigator. He declares his view - hammered out by reason, deducted from his investigations, following his own flight of thought - thus: ‘That which is called “the eye”, “the ear”, “the nose”, “the tongue”, and “the body” - that self is impermanent, unstable, non-etrenal, subject to change. But that which is called “mind” (citta), or “mentality” (mano), or “consciousness” (vi~n~naa.na) - that self is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and it will remain the same just like eternity itself.’ “ ***** Mike, I may have just confused the issue by adding detail from the Brahmajala sutta here. Let me finish with a quote from the Visuddhimagga (Vism XIX,5) about the importance of understanding the conditioned nature of dhammas: ..... "After discerning the material body's conditions in this way, he again discerns the mental body in the way beginnng: 'due to eye and to visible object eye-consciousness arises' (Sii72, Mi,111). When he has thus seen that the occurrence of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence will be due to conditions. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say, the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: "Was I in the past.......... and also the five kinds of uncertainty about the future stated thus: "Shall I be in the future?...., and also the six kinds of uncertainty about the present stated thus: "Am I?..."(Mi,8) ***** Comments welcome. Metta, Sarah p.s it's very helpful that you bring up details from the tapes,Mike. ====== 24762 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Mike I noted your attempt as getting this sorted out, and thought that perhaps there was a more straightforward explanation than the one below (I've only just found time to reply). In my experience of discussions with A. Sujin, and especially when the subject-matter is to do with satipatthana and daily life situations, 'accumulations' is mostly used in the non-technical sense of a person's accumulated tendencies good and bad. These are simply the latent tendencies that make a person act and react, think or feel etc. as he/she does, and account for an individual's personality and nature, likes and dislikes etc. I do not know of any single Pali term carrying this meaning, but there probably is one (any Pali experts reading this?). I don't know if that usage would fit in the context in which you originally asked the question. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: ... > So could I paraphrase this as saying that, when Khun Sujin uses the > word > 'accumulations', she sometimes means: 'natural strong dependence > condition > (pakatupanissaya paccaya)'; sometimes 'defilements...classified as > latent > tendencies, anusaya: sensuous greed, anger, wrong view, doubt, > conceit, > clinging to existence, ignorance'; sometimes 'sa~n~naa'; sometimes > 'kamma-condition'; sometimes 'natural strong dependence condition'; > and > sometimes some combination of (or even all of) the above? 24763 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:05am Subject: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > -- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear eddie, > > I agree about science and dhamma. Could you give > > more details about the 'samsara and rebirth games' > question. What is it you want answered? > > RobertK > Sorry for the delay, by 'samsara and rebirth games' > question, I mean why all these 'samsara and rebirth > cycles'? I understand that we all (in all levels of > existence) are entities going through these cycles, > which is beginingless and endless. So are the world > cycles. > Thanks, Eddie. > > +++++++++++++ Dear Eddie, There are a couple of possibilities. One is that there are no future or past lives and we just arrived here by chance. Could have been a dog or a horse, wise or dull, handsome or beautiful. It is what some leading scientists think: George Gaylord Simpson: ?gMan is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind.?h (1967, pp.344- 345).Richard Dawkins writes that in a universe governed by materialistic evolution (as he claims our universe to be) ?gsome people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice.?h (1995, pp.132-133). Jacques Monod: ?gPure chance, absolutely free but blind, lies at the very root of the stupendous edifice of evolution....?h (Monod, 1972, p.110); That is not the Buddhist way of thinking. According to the Buddha complex conditions are at work conditioning each moment, Many of them hidden by the passing of time. Since every moment has to be conditioned there cannot be revealed a time when there were no conditions - . It is as it is, and I think we cannot know any more than that. The Buddha explained the conditions and he explained how those conditions cease. Once they cease no more rebirth. Best wishes RobertK 24764 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Sukin: Sukon: "Hi Icaro, > >> I like you very much, so I am going to suggest you > something which I > think is going to be useful to you. If you must > learn one new > language, make it Thai. I know that it isn't easy > since it doesn't > use Roman script, but then again you do not have to > learn to write, > just hear and understand." ----------------------------------------------------- It´s a good idea, Sukin! The Lonely planet series, the Berlitz and The Assimil have got good guides for Thai conversation: the alphabet is somewhat clumsy at first look, but the Guides of Conversation and Phrasebooks ( mainly Lonely Planet´s)stand a practical approach to listening and understanding. I´ve got already the indonesian phrasebook, and the Thai´s next one! You can send me the mp3 files by E-mail, if they aren´t biggers than 3MB, or by normal postage if they are above 3 MB. Thank you in advance, dear Sukin! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24765 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Sarah: Sarah: " While you're waiting for Icaro to catch up with > Thai, why not send him > just one or two English MP3s of discussion with KS? > Even though they're > not edited like the Thai, I think Icaro with his > Pali knowledge could > appreciate them. Mike is enjoying the Kaeng Krajan > set, so perhaps that > and the India set? Unfortunately, I don't think you > can make it in time > for bootcamp and his night-time listening." ----------------------------------------------------- Good & blood!!! I will appreciate it indeed but about my boot camp´s night listening... I ought to satisfy myself with H.H. The Dalai Lama tapes!!! Dhammapada, Attavagga: "160. Attaa hi attano naatho, ko hi naatho paro siyaa; attanaa hi sudantena, naatham labhati dullabham." Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24766 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Dear Nina: nina: " Also lakkhanarupas, which are characteristics of > rupas, not concrete matter, > are classified as rupas. There are 28 rupa > paramattha dhammas in all." ---------------------------------------------------- Right on, Nina! If you count the 10 anipphanannarupas, summing up the Three phases or stages of matter: (1) arising (uppada) (2) static (thiti) (3) dissolution (bhanga) you get the 28 paramattha dhammas, from akasa to bhanga. Very clever your definition of lakkhanarupas - they´re rupas and not necessarilly matter: sometimes, reading the Abhidhamma I am under the impression that it correlates directly matter with rupa. Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24767 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 9 subco Vis 8. Hi, Sarah (and Nina, and Icaro) - In a message dated 8/30/03 3:36:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Dear Nina, > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > >Sarah: sabhaava dhamma: yes, with its own distinct nature or > >characteristic. > >When it is plural, I find natures strange, what to do. And sometimes I > >avoid > >characteristics when there is this word lakkhana in the same sentence. > >Stilted language! I may translate it differently in different contexts. > >Essence: no, Icaro does not like this either. > ..... > A lot of people have trouble with sabhaava and particularly with indiv > essence, esp. those who have come from a Mahayana background I think. I > had long discussions with Howard on this. > > Suggestions: > > -distinct nature. Mostly we can avoid pl and say 'with their own distinct > nature'. > - distinct quality. Distinct qualities no prob. > - specific nature/quality > - particular nature/quality > > -individual quality perhaps if we want it to be clear that it's referring > to sabhaava and keep closer to standard transl, but individual may sound > suspect again. > > Mike or Howard would be able to give good feedback too. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: To me, these are all okay, but with "specific (or particular) quality" being the best. The words 'distinct' and 'nature' are, to my "ear", not quite so good, due to their carrying degrees of an odor of self-existence, substantiality, separateness, and independence. It is a matter of connotation and nuance. (I also do not have a big problem with using "specific (or particular) characteristic", with 'characteristic' simply meaning "quality" or "condition". Only when 'characteristic' suggests a sense of hard separateness/independence does it make me uneasy in its use.) For me, the emptiness of all dhammas, their dependent status and corelessness, rank high. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:58am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 9 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 9. 1. Herein, the singlefold section is obvious in meaning. 2. As regards the twofold section, the 'mundane' is that associated with the mundane path and the 'supramundane' is that associated with the supramundane path. So it is of two kinds as mundane and supramundane. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 9. tattha ekavidhako.t.thaaso uttaanatthoyeva. duvidhako.t.thaase lokiyamaggasampayuttaa lokiyaa. lokuttaramaggasampayuttaa lokuttaraati eva.m lokiyalokuttaravasena duvidhaa. 24769 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Sarah (and Icaro), > While you're waiting for Icaro to catch up with Thai, why not send him > just one or two English MP3s of discussion with KS? Even though they're > not edited like the Thai, I think Icaro with his Pali knowledge could > appreciate them. Mike is enjoying the Kaeng Krajan set, so perhaps that > and the India set? Unfortunately, I don't think you can make it in time > for bootcamp and his night-time listening. Do you know for sure that there are English one's in MP3? Mike just asked me about them and I said I will check. But this will have to be 2 weeks from now. Today there was no discussion because K. Sujin had to attend the funeral of K. Sukol's monk brother. > If one considers something to be miccha ditthi, could it be considered as > a gift? Still, I know it's a kind intention and maybe there are parts you > consider as samma ditthi too. I think every one of them will still have to use some terms and concepts taught by the Buddha, so it is up to the listener to make the right or wrong interpretation and not be influenced by the interpretation of the speaker, no?! :-) > Only a sotapanna is beyond the negative influence of miccha ditthi for > sure, I think. Anything can happen meanwhile by conditions..... Yes, of course. I often have the thought that I am kept more or less 'on track' not so much by any real panna, but more by the memory of the words conveying the Teachings. If for example for some reason I loose my memory, I am sure any Guru or Swami or even a Christian missionary will be able to influence me!! :-( > Glad you've found all your lost mail, Sukin. Perhaps it will help prompt > Mike to send all his great reminders on list for us all - here it all gets > preserved and recycled;-) Not everything is back to normal though. I now don't receive any mail from yahoo groups at all :-/. I didn't read all of the lost mails, but one of them was from Dharam, which I was very happy to have found it. I misjudged the situation and am glad that it has turned out to be otherwise. I have written to him. Also Michael Jackson wrote to me the other day, you will be happy to know that he follows as much as he iis able to, the posts here :-). And guess who just walked into my shop a couple of hours ago? Eric and his wife!! They were here to shop for some computer equipment. Erik asked when you and Jon will be here, so maybe you will meet him since they will be here at least till the end of this year. He looks fine and happy! Got his well paid job back and is living in the same luxury apartment that he used to live in. :-) Will end here. Metta, Sukin. PS: Icaro, please send me your mailing address. 24770 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry & Howard, L: > There is no need to deny > the > > existence of names here. What's the point? .... S: The point, I think is to understand what panna is and what it can know. Hence the study of Vism. - panna. I think Howard has explained beautifully. I'll just requote part of it here: .... H: > It is mere convention to speak of > names, > just as it is mere convention to speak of cars and trees and Buddhist > e-mail > groups. Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of > constructs > of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks > of > which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, > insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings. .... I've also selected some of the posts under 'concepts' from UP which you might find useful to revisit or question further. I don't find any difference in the description of the objects of satipatthana (i.e paramattha dhammas) in the Abhidhamma and the Suttanta. Nor do I find any suggestion of concepts existing or having the characteristics of anicca and dukkha anywhere. At this moment of thinking about names, the thinking can be known to be real and so on, but the names are merely conceptualised. Look forward to any further discussion and apologies if I inadvertently caused any confusion. Btw, has anyone heard from Goglerr anywhere? He contributed some great posts on DSG during his stay. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, all the pieces you gave on the cankers (asavas) looked pretty good.Thx for adding the dict. extract too. I'll be glad to hear anything further from Nina and the subcomy. ====== Larry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12935 RobK http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12940 Goglerr & Larry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13013 Ray http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13394 Larry http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15642 Howard http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21057 Sarah http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21479 Lee http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22087 Mike http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23876 24771 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Dear Sukin: Sukin:"PS: Icaro, please send me your mailing address." ------------------------------------------------------ With pleasure, Sukin! My name and complete address are: Ícaro dos Santos França Rua Bulhões Marcial 553, apt.201 Parada de lucas, CEP 21241-370, Rio de Janeiro RJ, BRAZIL. Thank you in advance, Sukin! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24772 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Correction !!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- Ocaro: " Right on, Nina! > If you count the 10 anipphanannarupas, summing up > the Three phases or stages of matter:" > > (1) arising (uppada) > (2) static (thiti) > (3) dissolution (bhanga) > > you get the 28 paramattha dhammas," -------------------------------------------------- No! No! No! Only if you consider each of the stages as made of six elements. The 28 Paramatthas dhammas are: 1. form - rupa 2. sound - sadda 6. ear - sota (9) 3. odor - gandha 7. nose - ghana (10) 4. taste - rasa 8. tongue - jivha (11) 5. eye - cakkhu 9. body - kaya (12) 10. temperature - tezo 11. resistance - pathavi 12. motion - vayo 13. cohesion - apo 14. jinvita - life principle 15. Female principle 16. Male principle 17. mind base (hadya-vatthu 18. Oja - food and summing up the 10 anipphanannarupas from akasha to aniccata you´ll get the 28 paramattha dhammas! Mettaya, Ícaro from akasa to > bhanga. Very clever your definition of lakkhanarupas > - > they´re rupas and not necessarilly matter: > sometimes, > reading the Abhidhamma I am under the impression > that > it correlates directly matter with rupa. > > Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24773 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:00am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 10 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 10. 3. In the second dyad, that 'subject to cankers' is that which is the object of cankers. That 'free from cankers' is not their object. This dyad is the same in meaning as the mundane and supramundane. The same method applies to the dyads 'subject to cankers and free from cankers, associated with cankers and dissociated from cankers' (Dhs. p. 3), and so on. So it is of two kinds as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 10. dutiyaduke aasavaana.m aaramma.nabhuutaa saasavaa. tesa.m anaaramma.naa anaasavaa. atthato panesaa lokiyalokuttaraava hoti. aasavasampayuttaa saasavaa. aasavavippayuttaa anaasavaatiaadiisupi eseva nayo. eva.m saasavaanaasavaadivasena duvidhaa. 24774 From: Sarah Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! Hi Sukin, --- Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > > Do you know for sure that there are English one's in MP3? Mike just > asked me about them and I said I will check. .... Yes, yes, yes. K.Supee had put more or less all the English tapes onto MP3 when we last visited. Recently I asked K.Supatson to help me send English MP3 (the ones I just mentioned) to our friend living in Laos. (You might like to check this with her next time). K.Supee has even put some of the really old discussions recorded on reel-to-reel from the 70s onto MP3. What would be really useful would be a simple index of what they have. It would be great if you could help with checking/listening or distributing these at all, Sukin. Maybe you can report back in two weeks time. When they are better organised, we can also look at sets they don't have which we (and others) can feed back from our recording to go onto MP3 too. ..... > I think every one of them will still have to use some terms and concepts > > taught by the Buddha, so it is up to the listener to make the right or > wrong interpretation and not be influenced by the interpretation of the > speaker, no?! :-) .... ??;-) .... > > > Only a sotapanna is beyond the negative influence of miccha ditthi for > > sure, I think. Anything can happen meanwhile by conditions..... > > Yes, of course. I often have the thought that I am kept more or less 'on > track' not so much by any real panna, but more by the memory of the > words conveying the Teachings. If for example for some reason I loose > my memory, I am sure any Guru or Swami or even a Christian > missionary will be able to influence me!! :-( .... ;-( .... > Not everything is back to normal though. I now don't receive any mail > from yahoo groups at all :-/. I didn't read all of the lost mails, .... ! OK you just have to discuss more dhamma here then.... .... but > one of > them was from Dharam, which I was very happy to have found it. I > misjudged the situation and am glad that it has turned out to be > otherwise. I have written to him. ..... It's interesting how we sometimes jump to conclusions when we never know the full facts. I like Howard's reminder to think the best when there's any doubt. .... > Also Michael Jackson wrote to me the other day, you will be happy to > know that he follows as much as he iis able to, the posts here :-). .... Very, very glad to hear this. Michael J, if you're reading this, we'd love to hear how you and your dhamma studies/practice are going. Are you still in Canberra? (For those that haven't read the archives, Michael J was a colourful poster about 3 yrs ago at a guess.) .... > And guess who just walked into my shop a couple of hours ago? Eric > and his wife!! [...] .... This is really great news! It's super they can live together again and in comfort after being well and truly tested by difficult circumstances. We look f/w to seeing them too. Perhaps you can help persuade both these colourful posters to drop us all a line on DSG. I know many like Howard would be glad to see Erik around again. It's amazing how Erik and Eath's lives just keep unravelling like a complex movie script;-) Thx and metta, Sarah ====== 24775 From: abhidhammika Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:17am Subject: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists: To Howard Dear Howard, and all How are you? You wrote the following in reply to Ken: "Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find much more there than has seemed to be the case to me.------- Now, mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka." Go ahead, Howard! With your expertise in mathematics and computer science, the complexities in Abhidhamma Pitaka should not be obstacles. Abhidhamma Pitaka also contains one particular text called Kathaavatthu that is the oldest Indian logic book. Kathaavatthu uses a logical system involving items like self, person and so on. It aims to settle many doctrinal issues between the mainstream Theravada and other breakaway groups such as Pro-person thinkers (Puggalavaadins). As far as I am concerned, the most interesting aspects of Abhidhamma Pitaka are the relentless analysis and discussion of mental events (cittuppaadas)and mental associates(cetasikas) from various angles and approaches. And the most delicious Abhidhamma text according to me is Pa.t.thaana, the last and largest book with five volumes where the twenty-four causes or conditions are thoroughly analyzed and discussed. By the way, Naagaarjuna, the founder of Mahayana Buddhism in second century A.D, took from Pa.t.thaana only four conditions as follows. "catvaarah pratyayaa hetu`scaalambanamanantaram, tathaivaadhipateyyam ca pratyayo naasti pa`ncamah" Verse 4, Chapter 1, Muulamadhyamakakaarikaah. "There are four conditions: root, object, immediateness, As well as leading role; there isn't the fifth condition." Whatever Naagaarjuna said about the number of conditions, you will find all the twenty-four of them in Pa.t.thaana. Welcome to the Teachings On Realities (Paramatthadesanaa)! With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: "Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find much more there than has seemed to be the case to me.------- Now, mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back & forth between us has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka." With metta, Howard > Hi, Ken - 24776 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Hi Larry, op 30-08-2003 03:32 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > As "subject to cankers and not subject to cankers" is the same as > "mundane and supramundane", I take this to mean all mundane panna of > everyone except arahants is subject to cankers and all supramundane > panna arising in the 4 path moments and 4 path fruitions is not subject > to cankers. An arahant's panna is not subject to cankers whether mundane > or supramundane. 3. In the second dyad, that "subject to cankers" is that which > is the object of cankers. That "free from cankers" is not their object. Nina: There can be clinging to mundane panna, that is the meaning of: panna can be object of cankers. As to lokuttara panna: there is no clinging to this, only maybe to an idea we have of it. Because lokuttara panna leads to the end of defilements. I am just studying the subco: anaasava for lokuttara panna: because of its object. It has nibbana as object. Then Dsg, 3, I could not find. But another passage of Dsg: (good for Icaro, if he is still reading this) Book III, nikkhepaka..n..da.m. Part I, Ch IV: aasava-gocchaka.m (asava group): Footnote that is the same as my subco I am struggling with: saasavas: dhammas proceeding with aasavas, and which have made onself their object (attaanam aaramma.na.m katvaa). But, in our text, is there not reference all the time to panna? Thus, not panna itself, has asavas, but, the asavas make panna their object. What do you think? nina. 24777 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:13am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, [...] > I think it would be useful and interesting to explore this further - > especially icchatta (fewness of wishes) and contentment with little. I'd > be glad to read anything further that you particularly have in mind from > the texts, but I know you are hoping to be easing off on internet use for > now. In an earlier message I corrected 'icchataa' to 'appicchataa'. I also made reference to the 5 dhuras which is also incorrect. That should be the five dhutadhammas as discussed in the AN commentary on Mahakassapa. Wasn't there some DSG discussion on this some time ago? Since I'm trying to cut down on my participation in list discussions, it's probably not a good idea for me to take on more research work at this time. However, I'll keep it in mind and perhaps in those quieter moments later this year I'll have an opportunity to look into it in more detail. Fewness of wishes and contentment are included in the five ascetic practices (dhutadhammas) and relate to alobha. Kaayaviveka (bodily seclusion) would be another interesting one to look at. I don't know if this is included among the dhutadhammas, perhaps in pavivekataa. I also like the 'nekkhamma' (renunciation) that Suan brought up. This term also belongs to sammaasankappa (right thought), the 2nd member of the noble eightfold path. > I'll try, therefore to also resist adding any questions or comments that > you might feel bound to respond to, Jim;-) Rather like 'solitude', I think > there are references relating to physical 'fewness' and then fewness of > wishes being the opposite of craving. I have a quote I like a lot about > icchataa in this manner, but I may put it in another post to Nori. > ..... > >I think > > one of the problems of living truly as a bhikkhu is the incredibly > > wide gap between it and living as a layperson in a busy modern > > society. It seems to me that for most people it is taking quite a > > psychological leap to go from one to the other, a leap that was > > probably not so great during the time of the Buddha when most people > > were living a much simpler life than now. > ... > I'm sure that's right for many. But, of course many of the bhikkhus left > very wealthy and prestigious lay lives as well, so I'm not sure about > this. Also, I'm not sure the leap in terms of leaving family and friends > is ever less for those used to leading a simpler life. Now I'm not so sure either. > .... > >I'm thinking that the simple > > life as a layperson could be a bridge between the two in that the > > layperson is free to work at his own pace towards the bhikkhu/homeless > > person ideal. I also understand that there can be other approaches > > too, it's really up to each individual to work out what's best. One > > could also take up a simple solitary life in the city. > .... > I mostly agree with all your comments, Jim and I know that you have very > kindly intentions to try to help and support others who wish to lead a > simple solitary life as you have done for so long. I know you have gained > a lot of experience in this regard that you can share and are very aware > of the difficulties others may have. It's kind of you to consider > supporting those without internet access by snail mail. Azita very kindly > prints out copies of DSG posts to send to thr ex-bhikkhus I mentioned and > others. Anumodana, Azita. I'm just thinking that RobM's Xmas present CD > could be of great use in this regard - if they at least have computers > they can read the archives without internet access if they wish and then > snailmail comments to pass back here. (Christine, maybe you could raise > this at the Cooran weekend.) I think it would be a good idea to keep in touch with these ex-bhikkhus of whom I hardly know anything about. I know that it can be unhealthy for solitaries to cut off all communication with other Buddhists for years on end. We need to stay in touch with each other in one way or another. Before I started using the internet, I would occasionally make the effort to be in a Buddhist community either by staying at a Buddhist centre in the country or going to the city and getting involved in their activities for awhile. I think that perhaps most people (Buddhists included) seldom make any effort to get in touch with a solitary rural contemplative. It seems that it is the solitary dweller that has to make the effort and even at that, as in my own experience in Ontario, one may not get a response. I think those who enjoy solitary living should be included as a vital part of the larger Buddhist community. It would seem incomplete if all Buddhists were urban dwellers and they never knew nor ever had a chance to meet any from the forest. There's no point in trying to convince a solitary forest dweller (a rare thing) that he'd be much better off in the big city or to ask him to justify his chosen way of life. > As I've mentioned before, while I think it's good if we can support those > living a solitary life by choice or conditions (and like Chris, I think > it's good to keep this topic alive here), to be honest, I'm not sure > whether one can refer to a physically solitary life as 'the > bhikkhu/homeless ideal'. I don't think it has to be 100% solitary confinement. There is some good commentary on MN1 describing a balance between living alone in the forest and interacting with society and why many of the suttas give two locations of the Buddha's abode: the place of resort (a village, town, or city) and the place of contemplation (eg. at the foot of a tree). Until this year, I was in the habit of only going to the village for groceries once a month and then I got to thinking about the bhikkhu going into the village for his almsfood every day. So I've been working to change my habit to going in once a week and also using this day as a day for wandering about extensively on foot and mingling in with the people and traffic. I was so surprised at how many friendly people I met in the village on Thursday and how quick and willing they were to assist me. > We read so much in the Vinaya and suttas about the duties of bhikkhus > towards other bhikkhus and lay people. As you know, I've been reading the > commentary to the Parinibbana sutta and the details about the welfare and > harmony of the Sangha in terms of frequent assembly for so many purposes. > I was also interested in the section (all in ch1) about "The well-behaved > (pesalaa): those whose behaviour (siila) is good (piya)." In brief, these > are the bhikkhus who 'behave hospitably' to visiting bhikkhus. If the > visitor says "he will leave, they do not allow him to leave, saying things > like, 'this dwelling-place is suitable, it is easy to get almsfood.' They > rehearse the Vinaya and various teachings with the visiting elders. "The > visitors will say, 'Though when we came we thought that we would stay one > or two days, it is such a pleasure to live with these people that we will > stay ten or twelve years.'" And so, the Sangha prospers! [...] Thank-you for all your interesting comments and your help with the grammar books. I much agree with what you write. I believe that a solitary life can be lived in such a way that it can be beneficial both to the individual and those around him. It doesn't have to be the way of an anti-social hermit. I very much wish to apply the Theravada teachings in my daily life. Best wishes, Jim 24778 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma cannot be wrong. Hi Larry, op 30-08-2003 04:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I think abhidhamma is wrong. Names do exist. N: The Dhamma is subtle and deep and we cannot understand all. Take alone the Dependent Origination. We can only understand part of it. I think when there is something we do not understand we should not say, the Abhidhamma is wrong. This what Ken H also said. We cannot fathom the Buddha's wisdom. We should have the greatest respect for the Abhidhamma. Another example: sometimes asavas are classified as four, sometimes as three. No contradiction, but different aspects are shown. We cannot say, this classification is older then the other. Nina. 24779 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Dear Nina: Nina: "(good for > Icaro, if he is still reading this) Book III, > nikkhepaka..n..da.m. Part I, > Ch IV: aasava-gocchaka.m (asava group): > kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas, avyaakata dhammas, > of the worlds of sense > (kama), form (rupa; rupajhana) and formless > (arupajhana); in other words the > five khandhas.>" ------------------------------------------------------ Yes Nina! I am still reading the Dhammasangani! At my Dhammasangani I found (Dhammasangani, 3 Nikkhepakandam,4,ime dhamma aasava: "1116. Katame dhammaa aasavavippayutta saasava? Tehi dhammehi ye dhamma vippayutta saasava kusalakusalabyaakata dhamma kamavacara, rupaavacara, arupaavacara, rupakkhandho…pe… viññ±aanakkhandho– ime dhamma aasavavippayutta saasava." "1116. What are the dhammas connected with aasava, that flow at separated ways ? These caused dhammas are kusala, akusala, abyaakata, Kamma, rupa-sphere, arupa-sphere, rupakkhando, etc ( five khandas)... these are the Dhammas connected with aasava, that flow at separate ways." -------------------------------------------------------- Nina: "Footnote that is the same as my subco I am > struggling with: saasavas: > dhammas proceeding with aasavas, and which have made > onself their object > (attaanam aaramma.na.m katvaa). > But, in our text, is there not reference all the > time to panna? Thus, not > panna itself, has asavas, but, the asavas make panna > their object. What do > you think?" ----------------------------------------------------- Nina, the subCos are still beyond my resources...but with patience I will go there! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24780 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists: To Howard [This is a resending of another reply of mine that has bounced. Hope this makes it!] Hi, Suan - In a message dated 8/30/03 12:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Howard, and all > > How are you? > > You wrote the following in reply to Ken: > > "Somehow, almost inexplicably, it has increased my confidence in > Abhidhamma; it has led me believe that were I to properly study > abhidhamma, and to properly *consider* and mull over and come to > properly interpret what is included there, I might very well find > much more there than has seemed to be the case to me.------- Now, > mind you, I'm not saying that you are witnessing a conversion here > (!) ;-)), but I *am* saying that this little back &forth between us > has added to my appreciation of abhidhamma and has increased my > eagerness to directly study the Abhidhamma Pitaka." > > > Go ahead, Howard! > > With your expertise in mathematics and computer science, the > complexities in Abhidhamma Pitaka should not be obstacles. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) Yeah, one would think that with my training I would naturally gravitate towards Abhidhamma! (My mathematical and symbolic tendencies are offset, however, by a strong inclination towards a poetic take on things.) ------------------------------------------------- > > Abhidhamma Pitaka also contains one particular text called > Kathaavatthu that is the oldest Indian logic book. Kathaavatthu uses > a logical system involving items like self, person and so on. It aims > to settle many doctrinal issues between the mainstream Theravada and > other breakaway groups such as Pro-person thinkers (Puggalavaadins). > > As far as I am concerned, the most interesting aspects of Abhidhamma > Pitaka are the relentless analysis and discussion of mental events > (cittuppaadas)and mental associates(cetasikas) from various angles > and approaches. > > And the most delicious Abhidhamma text according to me is > Pa.t.thaana, the last and largest book with five volumes where the > twenty-four causes or conditions are thoroughly analyzed and > discussed. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is the book I would be most inclined to give serious study to. ------------------------------------------------- > > By the way, Naagaarjuna, the founder of Mahayana Buddhism in second > century A.D, took from Pa.t.thaana only four conditions as follows. > > "catvaarah pratyayaa hetu`scaalambanamanantaram, > tathaivaadhipateyyam ca pratyayo naasti pa`ncamah" > > Verse 4, Chapter 1, Muulamadhyamakakaarikaah. > > "There are four conditions: root, object, immediateness, > As well as leading role; there isn't the fifth condition." > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I recall that. I also recall that Kalupahana and Garfield had different interpretation of the MMK on this point in their translation-commentaries of the work, but I don't recall exactly how they differ. --------------------------------------------- > > Whatever Naagaarjuna said about the number of conditions, you will > find all the twenty-four of them in Pa.t.thaana. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've looked at several web sites on the Pa.t.thaana. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Welcome to the Teachings On Realities (Paramatthadesanaa)! > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Or on "ultimates". ----------------------------------------------------- > > With regards, > > Suan > > http://www.bodhiology.org ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24781 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:09am Subject: Re: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Eddie, > There are a couple of possibilities. One is that... > ...evolution....?h (Monod, 1972, p.110); > > That is not the Buddhist way of thinking. According > to the Buddha complex conditions are at work conditioning each moment, Many of them hidden by the passing of time. Since every moment has to be conditioned there cannot be revealed a time when there were no conditions - . It is as it is, and I think we cannot know any more than that. The Buddha explained the conditions and he explained how those conditions cease. Once they cease no more rebirth. > Best wishes > RobertK Dear Robert, Thanks for the input. Normally the first view seems understandable but on closer look it is just "seems" to look realistic but has many missing links. The Buddha's view may seem superstitious but 'to me' it has much less missing links - one being that question of mine. The reason being "conditioned" condition/effect is another way of saying 'cause & effect', which is one of the very fundamental pillars of his explanations. If we look at- all and everything that we can discern in our world, there is 'not one SINGLE thing' that is without a cause. The effect arisen in turn can become cause of the next effect. And the chain can continue on. But sometimes the cause can not be found, as you mentioned above ...'hidden by the passing of time'... like 'cause in previous life'. That seems to explain individual rebirths and those child prodigies like Almadeus Mozart. These prodigal effects were well documented and are still happening all the time. Coming back to that question - why all these beginingless and endless... rebirth cycles. I hope I do not need a Samasan Buddha himself to give me an answer, another possibility is - our most recent Buddha Gotama's teaching in scriptures like Tipitika or Abidhamma. So I am asking around, hoping someone have come across this issue. Metta Eddie Lou 24782 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Nina: "Thus, not panna itself, has asavas, but, the asavas make panna their object. What do you think?" Hi Nina, I agree. As Howard is fond of saying, everything is interrelated. So mundane panna arises (for an ordinary person) in an atmosphere of cankers, is associated with cankers, and the object of cankers: sense desire, survival instinct (bhavaasava), wrong views, and bewilderment. I take "sense desire" to include mental satisfaction at intellectual nicety. Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal becoming of insight? Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. I'm not sure how to characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any ideas? Larry 24783 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Thanks, Nina-- ----- Original Message ----- From: nina van gorkom To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan > Dear Mike, > op 29-08-2003 16:31 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > > So my question should > > have been, 'does 'result' refer only to future lives? Are there no > > 'results' that are not future rebirths? > N: If we take result in the sense of vipaka: as far as I understand no, > there are not. > Nina 24784 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhava-ta.nhaa in Kaeng Kajan Thanks Sarah, A lot to digest here--more later. mike 24785 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Howard: "Our normal "world" consists entirely of mental constructs of constructs of constructs - a kind of house of cards, the elementary building blocks of which aren't even at all what they seem to be, but simply fleeting, insubstantial, completely dependent phenomenal flashings." Hi Howard, I think the key _name_ here is "phenomenal". No matter how you slice it a name is a mental event and so has a characteristic of becoming, the same as a feeling, mental image (meaning), affection, or intention. However, if I said names exist then I went too far. My intention was simply to say they are included in the khandhas and have a characteristic that "becomes". Regarding extremes of "existence" and "nonexistence" I refer you to a voluminous post by Sarah today on this subject. Below is a small snippet: "First straight from the Sammohavinodanii (commentary to the Vibhanga, 2nd text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka)2281: "'iti bhavadi.t.thisannissitaa vaa ti ('so they are either dependent on the view of existence'): they are either dependent thus on the eternity view; for it is the eternity view which is here 'the view of existence'(vibhava-di.t.thi). For owing to the fact that all (wrong) views are included by the eternity and annihilation views (together), all these beings who hold (wrong) views are dependent on those two kinds of (wrong) view. This also is said: 'this world, Kaccaayana, mostly depends on two things, on existence and non-existence' (Sii17); and here, 'existence'(atthitaa) is eternity, 'non-existence' is annihilation (uccheda). This firstly is the habitat of beings that are ordinary men dependent on the process."" Larry (Lllll airrrr eeeeee) 24786 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. Thanks, Jon--got it. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 3:05 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] accumulations. > Mike > > I noted your attempt as getting this sorted out, and thought that > perhaps there was a more straightforward explanation than the one > below (I've only just found time to reply). > > In my experience of discussions with A. Sujin, and especially when > the subject-matter is to do with satipatthana and daily life > situations, 'accumulations' is mostly used in the non-technical sense > of a person's accumulated tendencies good and bad. > > These are simply the latent tendencies that make a person act and > react, think or feel etc. as he/she does, and account for an > individual's personality and nature, likes and dislikes etc. I do > not know of any single Pali term carrying this meaning, but there > probably is one (any Pali experts reading this?). > > I don't know if that usage would fit in the context in which you > originally asked the question. > > Jon 24787 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, Re: L: There is no need to deny the existence of names here. What's the point? .... S: The point, I think is to understand what panna is and what it can know. Hence the study of Vism. - panna. As Nina affirmed a few days ago, panna can understand anything, including concepts. This is also borne out by the four "resolvings of continuous breaking up" (patisambhida), four kinds of panna: meanings, assertions, language, and "ready wit". Larry 24788 From: m. nease Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:22pm Subject: Fw: failure notice for Sukin--sorry, Mods! Hi Sukin, Sorry, it seems your email troubles are not over--I received the failure notice below for my last two tries to your address. Hope you'll read this on dsg. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: failure notice > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at zipcon.net. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > Sorry. Although I'm listed as a best-preference MX or A for that host, > it isn't in my control/locals file, so I don't treat it as local. (#5.4.6) > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > Return-Path: > Received: (qmail 28918 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2003 16:20:12 -0700 > Received: from fumble.zipcon.net (HELO x9g7g8) (209.221.136.35) > by zipcon.net with SMTP; 30 Aug 2003 16:20:12 -0700 > Message-ID: <006601c36f4c$d17af600$2388ddd1@x9g7g8> > From: "m. nease" > To: "Sukinder" > References: <000a01c36ea3$4e8b9140$2c88ddd1@x9g7g8> <000d01c36eb5$ec5cda70$b1c76bcb@home> > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:59:07 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 > > Hi Sukin, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sukinder > To: m. nease > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 10:16 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Bogor group, apa kabar! > > > Hi again, > > > > Sorry I didn't notice that you wrote suggesting that you were not familiar > > with MP3. > > MP3 are compressed sound files which can be played by most up-to-date > audio > > software. They are written on normal CDs. So you can play these from the > > computer using the Media- player or whatever that comes with Windows. > > Also most electronic companies have now come out with hardware that can > play > > these > > files. Last year I bought a Sony Net MD, these can play modified versions > of > > MP3, ie. > > you hook the player to your computer and put your MP3 CD to your drive, > and > > via the > > Sony software, these MP3 files are converted with some loss in the degree > of > > compression > > to allow for these files to be copied over to the MDs. So now I can have > up > > to 4 1/2 hrs > > of Dhamma on one MD. > > But more than this, just 3 weeks ago, I bought an Mp3 player with 12 CD > > changer for my car, so now I have at any given time, more than 200 hrs of > > Dhamma in my car. :-) > > Excellent! And thanks for the explanation. I knew people exchanged these > via the internet but was unsure of the medium--the cd. > > > Do you have a CD player on your computer? > > I do--if there are any English cd's I'd love to have them--the Thai ones > would be of no use, unfortunately. > > Thanks again, > > mike 24789 From: Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) ;-)) How_weird! In a message dated 8/30/03 8:34:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Larry (Lllll airrrr eeeeee) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 24790 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 10 Dear Larry: larry:" I > take "sense desire" to include mental satisfaction > at intellectual > nicety. Could bhavaasava be desire for the eternal > becoming of insight?" ---------------------------------------------------- Of course Nina can take this subject at a proper way, Larry...but only think about the old nursery rhyme ( about bhavaasava and insight): "Old Mother Hubbard went to her cupboard To give her poor dog a bone. When she got there The cupboard was bare And so the poor dog has none." Mother of whom we are talking about ???? It´s only the same question: may the bare survival desire to be sufficient to make one poor dog (or another proper animal) gets insight of the higher values of existence ? At first analysis yes... the bhavaasava can conduct one to the first glimpse of insight. But Aasavas are aasavas: people gets nothing for nothing... you must take the Noble Path with good intentions and a well disposed mind to obtain at least the more basic jhanas. ------------------------------------------------------- Larry: "Wrong views could include assumptions of permanence. > I'm not sure how to > characterize panna as an object of bewilderment. Any > ideas?" ----------------------------------------------------- It sounds strange such mundane traits taking a serious decision to get pañña. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Larry ===== Seize the time, there´s only minutes left to zero Just got a little taste, I gotta get some more, Just me and you 24791 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:asava Dear Sarah and Mike, Never have I read Vis. so slowly, it is a good thing. With subco I have to return all the time to Vis text. Aasavas get more difficult. I have to pull out more books. Panna cannot be together with asava, but it can be object of asava shortly after it has fallen away. Also, the asava can be object of panna. I have to study more the meaning of sasaasava, with aasava. When a sentence is too tough I could leave it out, putting dots. It is a pity to give it all up just because there is a too difficult sentence here and there. I conclude from the Dhsg that also avyaakata dhammas, and kusala can be proceeding along with asavas. Thus, this doeas not mean: they are accompanied by asavas at that moment, but, proceeding along may mean: be objects of asavas. On account of them asavas can arise? Re object is difficult to sort out. I looked at Co. Dhammasangani(Topics of Abh) under taints and here is something for Mike: Thus, they are differentiated. Existence is here the transl of bhaava. Nina. op 30-08-2003 11:21 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I'll be glad to hear anything > further from Nina and the subcomy. 24792 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: to Sukin, re: cremation Dear Sukin, op 30-08-2003 11:22 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Today there was no discussion because K. Sujin had > to attend the funeral of K. Sukol's monk brother. N: This touches me very, very deeply and I sympathize with K. Sukol very much, please tell him this. Lodewijk will also be touched, we both respected him so much. We were going to ask for a trip to the Wat Dong Devi when we are in Thailand end January, beginning February, because we wanted to see him. What a loss for the Dhamma also, he had such great understanding. Can you give me more news? I like to hear about the Abbot's kusala and about the Dhamma talk at the ceremony. Nina. 24793 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kusala kamma continues samsara Nina The commentary material you quote below is interesting stuff. Is it from a published translation, or is it your own translation from the Pali (or Thai)? Thanks. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: ... > N: I shall just quote from my : > Sayings on > Cause, Ch I, § 3, The Way) that the Buddha, while dwelling near > Såvatthí, > said to the monks: > > Which, monks, is the wrong way? 3Conditioned by ignorance > activities come to > pass; conditioned by activities consciousness2... even (the way of) > the > uprising of this entire mass of dukkha. This is called the wrong > way. > And which is the right way? 3But from the utter fading away and > ceasing of > ignorance (comes) the ceasing of activities; from the ceasing of > activities > (comes) ceasing of consciousness2... even (the way of) the ceasing > of this > entire mass of dukkha. This is called the right way. ... > The Commentary to this Sutta, the 3Såratthappakåsiní2, states: 3The > wrong > way is the way that does not deliver beings from dukkha.2 The > Commentary > explains that in this respect also the attainment of the stages of > jhåna > (the eight jhåna samåpatti, including rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna) > and the > five 3supra-natural powers2 (abhiññås ) are part of the cycle > (vatta) and > are as such the wrong way of practice. The way of practice by > which > ignorance and the other defilements are completely eradicated and > nibbåna is > attained is the right way. Further on, the Commentary explains that > in this > sutta the practice is considered from the point of view of the > result it > leads to: the continuation of the cycle (vatta) or the end of the > cycle > (vivatta). When it leads to the end of defilements, nibbåna, it is > the right > way practice. > The Commentary states that even the offering of one ladle of rice > or a > handful of leaves can be the right way of practice, leading out of > the > cycle. When someone performs dåna together with satipatthåna, > without the > idea of self who is giving, the giving is very pure, it is the > right > practice. > 24794 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, sabhaava. Thank you Sarah, very good. I also liked Howard's remarks. Nina. op 30-08-2003 09:28 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > distinct nature. Mostly we can avoid pl and say 'with their own distinct > nature'. > - distinct quality. Distinct qualities no prob. > - specific nature/quality > - particular nature/quality 24795 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Brahmajala Sutta- dhamma Dear Sarah, Thank you for all the quotes. But originally the question was: the kinds of ditthi which are akusala kamma patha. with regard to eternity belief. op 30-08-2003 09:48 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Just quoting from the Brahmajala sutta reminded me that in the comy and > subcomy to it, there are a lot of details on meanings of 'dhamma', p.121 N: yes, p. 127. The same as in Mulapariyaya, Jon mentioned. The Saddaniti has given more. Nina. 24796 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:48am Subject: Fwd:__Re:_[dsg]_Re:_Nibbana_–_Total_Unbinding --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > > Dear Robert, > Thanks for the input. Normally the first view [that of ne0- darwinism which suggests chance development of mid and humanity rk] seems > understandable but on closer look it is just "seems" > to look realistic but has many missing links. _____ Yes exactly. It is simply a view buttressed by 'objective scientific evidence'. Miccha-ditthi. ------------ The > Buddha's view may seem superstitious but 'to me' it > has much less missing links - one being that question > of mine. The reason being "conditioned" > condition/effect is another way of saying 'cause & > effect', which is one of the very fundamental pillars > of his explanations. If we look at- all and everything > that we can discern in our world, there is 'not one > SINGLE thing' that is without a cause. The effect > arisen in turn can become cause of the next effect. > And the chain can continue on. But sometimes the cause > can not be found, as you mentioned above ...'hidden by > the passing of time'... like 'cause in previous life'. > That seems to explain individual rebirths and those > child prodigies like Almadeus Mozart. These prodigal > effects were well documented and are still happening > all the time. _________ yes that is right. No single condition prodcuing results either - many complex conditions. __________ > Coming back to that question - why all these > beginingless and endless... rebirth cycles. I hope I > do not need a Samasan Buddha himself to give me an > answer, another possibility is - our most recent > Buddha Gotama's teaching in scriptures like Tipitika > or Abidhamma. So I am asking around, hoping someone > have come across this issue. ________________ Dear Eddie, Do you think having the question answered would lead out of samsara? Whether you find the answer or not the truth is that samsara exists and the causes for samsara- ignorance and craving are present. How to eradicate them is the buddhist focus. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn063.html Majjhima Nikaya 63 Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya Malunkyaputta was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in his awareness: "These positions that are undisclosed, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One -- 'The cosmos is eternal,' 'The cosmos is not eternal,' 'The cosmos is finite,' 'The cosmos is infinite,' >>>> I don't accept that the Blessed One has not disclosed them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he discloses to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,' that 'The cosmos is not eternal,' that 'The cosmos is finite,' that 'The cosmos is infinite,' >>> then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not disclose to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life." "Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will disclose to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' >>>>> "No, lord." "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I ......'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him. "In the same way, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not disclose to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,'... or that ....' the man would die and those things would still remain undisclosed by the Tathagata. "Malunkyaputta, it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. And it's not the case that when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is the living of the holy life. When there is the view, 'The cosmos is eternal,' and when there is the view, 'The cosmos is not eternal,' there is still the birth, there is the aging, there is the death, there is the sorrow, lamentation, pain, despair, & distress whose destruction I make known right in the here & now. ""So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed. And what is undisclosed by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undisclosed by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undisclosed by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... "And why are they undisclosed by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undisclosed by me. "And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me. "So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Malunkyaputta delighted in the Blessed One's words. RobertK > .com 24797 From: torloff87048 Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:26pm Subject: Verbal Intimation and the Abhidhamma I wonder if one of you that is a student of the Abhidhamma could help me understand how to apprehend verbal intimation in strict Abhidhamma terms. What I mean is, once the volition to speak has become a mental factor, what types of consciousness (cittas), objects of consciousness, and mental factors (cetasikas) are present during the course of the speech? (The terminology I'm using is taken from "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" originally translated by Ven. Narada and newly translated and revised by Bhikku Bodhi. I hope the language is universal enough for others to make the necessary correspondences with their own.) For example, suppose one person says to another, "I'm going to the store." Let's assume the original citta in which the volition to speak occured is wholesome, with the object being the welfare (through communication) of the one who is spoken to. Obviously, more than one citta occurs during the actual speaking of the sentence. "I'm going to the store," if only because cittas are of much shorter duration than the time it takes to say that. Also, while the sentence is being spoken all kinds of sensory impressions are most likely being adverted to consciousness and processed at some minimal level. Does this mean that the cittas which have the original object (the welfare of the other) are continually arising and falling during the act of speech? Do other cittas with different objects have to intervene in order to access the individual words and speak them? Is each word a mental object in its own right before it is spoken? Or are we to understand the words as being aspects of the original object, which are sequentially perceived during speech by cittas arising with more or less the same original object, only keeping track of what has been already said? How is one to make sense of grammar in terms of the Abhidhamma? Where is grammar located and how does it arise and affect the course of speaking so that sentences come out grammatically correct? I'm not even sure that I'm asking the right questions here. What I'm hoping for is someone to lead me through all the cittas, mind-objects and cetasikas that generally occur during speech. The more details the better! Take a simple example, like, "I'm going to the store," and analyze it on the most microscopic level possible, making whatever assumptions necessary to pin things down. Many thanks for any insights and commentary. 24798 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] DSG Messages in a Word Document Rob M I've just had a look at the files. This is great work, and will be invaluable for accessing the wealth of good material that is in the archives. Many thanks indeed for your kusala effort in doing this. I would certainly like to receive a copy of the CD. Jon --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Friends, > > When I first discovered DSG, the following thought arose in my > mind, "It would be really interesting to read all of the past > posts 'like a novel'." In other words, I found that scrolling > through a limited number of messages on a web page to be > inconvient. > I wanted to have a single Microsoft Word document with just the > text > of the messages (none of the images or advertisements that appear > on > a web-page). > > I figured out how to create such a document using a combination of > software and brute force. The "software" part is quick, but > the "brute force" part takes time (I will likely be "current" by > December. In the "files" section of DSG, you will find five zipped > Word documents. Each Word document covers 1000 messages and is > about > 1000 pages long (the zip files are each about 1 meg in size). > > I will not be adding any more files because a rough calculation > shows that there will not be enough space in the files section of > the DSG to hold all of the files. I ask those of you who wish to > get > a "Christmas present" from me to drop me an email > at "rob.moult@j..." and I will snail mail you a CD with the > complete set of files. > > Enjoy! > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 24799 From: Sarah Date: Sun Aug 31, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Larry (Nina, Num & Sukin), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Re: L: There is no need to deny the > existence of names here. What's the point? .... > S: The point, I think is to understand what panna is and what it can > know. > Hence the study of Vism. - panna. > L: > As Nina affirmed a few days ago, panna can understand anything, > including concepts. This is also borne out by the four "resolvings of > continuous breaking up" (patisambhida), four kinds of panna: meanings, > assertions, language, and "ready wit". ..... S:Just to clarify a little more on panna in my comment: As we know, panna (right understanding) also accompanies moments of samatha. For example, if there is kusala reflection on the Buddha's qualities or on Dhamma now, then there must be panna accompanying the wise reflection with concepts as objects. However, when we are referring to the development of satipatthana or vipassana as we were, then it is the understanding of nama and rupa, hence all the references to 'understanding as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual characteristics of states'. Nina added a subco addition to this: ***** N:Vis. subco 8. dhammasabhaavapa.tivedho naama pa~n~naaya aave.niko sabhaavo, na tenassaa koci vibhaago labbhatiiti aaha The penetration of the individual natures of dhammas is truly the special characteristic of understanding, and he said that it therefore has not got any division, with the words, ``dhammasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.nena taava ekavidhaa''ti. ‘Because of its characteristic of penetration of the individual natures of dhammas it is just so of one kind.’ ***** Only paramattha dhammas, i.e namas and rupas, have sabhaava (individual nature) which can be directly known. .... L: > As Nina affirmed a few days ago, panna can understand anything, > including concepts. This is also borne out by the four "resolvings of > continuous breaking up" (patisambhida), four kinds of panna: meanings, > assertions, language, and "ready wit". .... I forget the context of Nina’s comment. Perhaps she’ll clarify. As it says at the start of the Vism ch, “Understanding (pa~n~naa)is of many sorts and has various aspects.” There are kinds of panna without the Buddha’s teaching. Even when concepts are the object of consciousness and panna, they do not exist. With regard to the patisambhida, it’s a very difficult subject for me and I’d need to consider further. However, only some arahants had these very highly developed kinds of panna based on very clear comprehension of all realities and full enlightenment. When we read about them, especially the third one perhaps, it seems conceptual, but actually it is direct knowlege with very highly developed panna. A very difficult area and good question. Nina wrote more in this post and Num gives more details under Patisambhidamagga in UP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14156 Perhaps they’ll add more or I’ll try to come back later. metta, Sarah p.s Sukin -maybe you can nudge Num and tell him 'patisambhida' are back on the discussion table. ======