25200 From: Andrew Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to Dear Sarah Thank you for your response to this post - it all makes sense to me now. I don't always get the opportunity to read all posts and so no doubt I fail to respond to posts that I ought to respond to. Sorry about that. I am still digesting the simile of the raft - brief reference to which has popped up in other suttas, I now note. Re the KenH/Howard controversy, can I complicate things further by reporting that I am now sometimes calling him KenH to his face with no obvious grimace in reply. BTW the reason for KenH's current silence is that he is away for a short while. You can expect a flood of posts on his return, no doubt. And nobody has been game to weigh Smokey Joe recently so Christine's statement that he has put on weight is pure speculation (an "unknowable"). Metta to all Andrew 25201 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Sarah, I had some in my own file, and now Rob K's post on Buddhaghosa. I searched your links, no, only the last ones came forward, not what you said. But it is OK now. Nina. op 10-09-2003 11:01 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17904 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19897 > > 25202 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina (& Nori & all), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I had some in my own file, and now Rob K's post on Buddhaghosa. I > searched > your links, no, only the last ones came forward, not what you said. .... I often forget what I’ve said too.... If you can remember a key word or name, then sometimes you can find a post without too much trouble in escribe, keying in the word into ‘search’, esp. if you know whose post you’re looking for: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ On the questions about Buddhadasa’s comments and Buddhaghosa, I think these were some of the main posts by RobK, Kom, James and myself. I’ve added full links out the numbers in case they don’t show up(Perhaps it was the last one on Buddhaghosa that you were referring to??): ***** Buddhadasa Bhikkhu - paticcasamuppada and rebirth 20495, 20512, 20530 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20495 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20512 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20530 ***** Buddhaghosa 20434, 20532 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20434 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20532 ***** Nori, let us know what you think. It’s very helpful for everyone to raise and consider these comments and articles regularly, I think. I also don’t find any difference in meaning of the teachings in the suttas, Abhidhamma or ancient commentary texts, but am always glad when others raise queeries and possible examples or textual references. Metta, Sarah ====== 25203 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Re: Cats and Dogs was [Re: [dsg] Things worth adhering to] Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Here I am. The famous article will follow. .... I was referring to Chittapala (sp?)'s article which Chris showed me. If you have problems posting it (maybe in 2 or 3 parts) then perhaps she can help. I didn't keep my email copy. .... > I actually wrote an article last night to send to dsg., got to > the last 3 letters of my name - a whoosh! off into cyberspace it went. > My poor computor skills are deteriorating, if that's possible. > That's no excuse, I hear you say. .... On the contrary, I'm saying I really sympathise. I had this happen so many times for the first couple of years or more of DSG and so often would be retyping in a frustrated state of mind. I remember one particular long post to Sukin when he was new that whooshed off and a very poor substitute written in haste and with quite a bit of frustration sent to the list instead. Eventually, Jon taught me about off-line composing in a word document and it's all been pretty smooth sailing since. ..... > The Cooran w/e was wonderful, they are true kalayanamittas. > I promise to send it my story about the w/e; but now I have to > go to work. .... And they were indeed fortunate that you were able to join them and add your good and wise comments - always to the point;-) Perhaps next time, instead of an astrology lesson for dummies (1. remove stray hairs from lens..), you could suggest a slot for a computer lesson instead (1. Reg- get a computer, 2. Azita - compose off-line and save, save, save) ... > Patience, courage and good cheer, .... Thanks as always and I hope you find enough metta for us all to rewrite some or most of your whooshed away post. Metta, Sarah ===== 25204 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S_DHAMMA_DIARY_-_CHAPTER_ZERO_! Hi Icaro, This is going to be a very interesting dhamma diary indeed - Dhammasangani-pali in daily boot-camp life. Much appreciation and looking forward to chapter one (if that is what follows ch zero??) --- icarofranca wrote: > > ÍCARO´S DHAMMA DIARY > > Chapter Zero: ParaMMAAAAtha Dhammas really do it ! Glad everything fitted into your bag and you managed to track down all the concrete (nipphanna)(18) rupas. I'm sure with your colourful expression that even those who are not too keen on lists, abhidhamma or rupas will have taken a look;-) .... > Don´t dare to miss our thrilling next episode: > > CHAPTER ONE: After a MUTTON scéance, what is Reality ? > > (well, I will try don´t get so thrilled anyway...) .... Oh, I see it is ch one next. Hope we find out what a "MUTTON sceance" is and how reality follows it. Sounds intriguing;-) Will take your advice to heart about not getting so thrilled... Btw, Jim & all, tiger balm is very useful for putting on insect bites... > Mettaya, Ícaro ( here we go !!!!) .... Take care, look f/w to ch 1 when you can get it to us;-) metta, Sarah ===== 25205 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Toby, Howard (& Larry;-)), (Howard, I hope you don't mind if I combine my reply to you both here) torloff87048 wrote: > > Thanks for your clarifications here (and kind words elsewhere). What > you said made sense to me. .... That’s good to hear Toby. What you are all writing makes sense to me too. We all agree that concepts are not to be confused with paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities) and don’t share the characteristics of these, such as anicca and dukkha. This is a lot of agreeing already, I think, even if there are a few obstacles on the fine-tuning path.... You quote these helpful lines: T:> CMA VIII, 30 Concepts as that which is made known: > > "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate > sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of > (ultimate) things." .... Commentary (p321,PTS) “’In the manner of a shadow of something real: in the manner of a shadow of an ultimate dhamma, in the manner of its semblance.’” So, I understand that just as a shadow can be looked at and reflected on in spite of having no ‘actuality’ or characteristics of its own which can be directly known, so too can concepts be conceived. CMA V111. 32 Summary “By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention.” Commentary (p.323) “ ‘In the wake of the sound of speech: an ear-consciousness process occurs in the wake of’ - following, mindful of, making its object the sound consisting of speech such as ‘earth’, ‘mountain’, ‘materiality’, ‘feeling’: ‘immediately after its occurrence’, (a conceptual name) becomes ‘the objective field’ - becomes the object - ‘of the mind-door (which has) arisen’ - of the sequence of mind-door processes that occur in the manner of reflecting on the words (naama) and whose decisive support is a term (sa”nketa) previously learnt as a word (naama) having a particular meaning; ‘after’ this registering of the name,’in conformity with this’ conceptual name whose referents are conventional and ultimate, ‘meanings’, whether conventional or ultimate, ‘are discerned’.” [There is a little more which I think may be of interest to you as it touches on other comments of Toby’s about language, so I’ll post it after signing off * in case you don’t have this commentary (Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma, v.recently published by PTS)] ..... T:> In terms of concepts, I still wonder if it is possible to describe > thinking without reference to anything but citta and cetasika. No > concepts needed. How useful this is I don't know. From this point of > view I would apprehend the phrase "thinking about a tree" as > "thinking-about-a-tree." .... In terms of the actual thinking, only citta and cetasikas are involved. However, there is no tree concept or shadow in the thinking at all. The cittas and cetasikas just perform their very specific tasks according to conditions. So after seeing a visible object, “(a conceptual name) becomes ‘the objective field’” “of the sequence of mind-door processes that occur in the manner of reflecting on the words (naama)” according to previous learnt concepts and experiences. Meanings are thus ‘discerned’ regardless of whether the original ‘referents’ were concepts or realities. .... T:> Even though the CMA refers to concepts as objects of citta, there is at > least some room to consider that the notion "concepts can be objects of > citta" is only a conventional way of speaking, even in the CMA and > Abhidhamma: .... I think it’s a statement about what actually occurs. .... [... shadow quote] T:> The wiggle room here is the meaning of "shadows of ultimate things." In > my interpretation, the shadows are the conditioning of ultimate things > by ultimate things, i.e. citta and cetasika that have been conditioned > by ultimate things, especially by sanna, and later perceived as objects > of citta. .... If we look at the 24 paccaya, concepts are also included in arammana paccaya(object condition) and upanissaya paccaya(decisive support condition). For example, when concepts are objects, they condition the cittas and cetasikas experiencing them and can be objects of kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome) or kiriya (inoperative) cittas. This is not just in the Abhidhamma. In the sutta I was discussing yesterday in MN (Culatanhasankhaya Sutta) with Andrew, we were seeing how attachment can arise on account of realities or concepts and only by knowing the paramattha dhammas will it be lessened and eventually eradicated. The Abhidhamma detail helps a lot, I think, in understanding the suttas. .... T:>It's the conditioning that gives rise to experiences like > "thinking-about-a-tree," not any concept "tree" that becomes an object > of "thinking". Even an Arahant's mind remains conditioned in these > ways. Otherwise, he would not even be able to speak. .... I think you’d find it helpful to read Nina’s book on ‘Conditions’ which is a very useful summary with a lot of textual reference. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I agree that an Arahant’s mind ‘remains’ conditioned’. The cittas and cetaskikas continue to take concepts as object too. Of course, in this case all ignorance and other kilesa have been eradicated, but concepts can still be the objects of thoughts with generosity, metta or jhana states for example. Look forward to further comments. I think these are very useful discussions. Metta, Sarah *commentary to chV111 passage cont: “ ‘A concept such as this’, namely ‘earth’, ‘mountain’, ‘materiality’, or ‘feeling’, which brings about understanding of the meaning that should be understood, which is apprehended through the mind-door and consists of a series of syllables, ‘is to be seen as created through ordinary conventions’, accepted by common designation; a conceptual name is reckoned a concept because it brings about understanding. And here, ‘an ear-consciousness process’ is stated as also including in that same process of ear-consciousness the process at the mind-door which comes into being immediately after the ear-consciousness process. For when one hears the word ‘drum’, etc, for every sound [or word] there are two courses of impulsion by way of a present and past object, [while] there is one [course of impulsion] taking the sequence of syllables which constitute the conceptual name apprehended by one’s intellect; in this way the conceptual name is apprehended immediately after the process of impulsion that has as its object the past sounds [or words] and that occurs immediately after the [actual] ear-consciousness process; after that, so the teachers say, one understands the meaning.” **************** 25206 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Issues of Dhamma, no 10. Three meanings of Satipatthana Dear Nina, I think these ‘Issues’ arising from discussions at the foundation in Bangkok are very interesting and useful. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. > > Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: 2the teacher1s > threefold > surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who > practise2 mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? > > Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: > > 2The teacher1s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard > to > his disciples who practise2 means indeed the path by which the Buddha > and > his disciples went. ..... I’ve read and heard explanations about the three meanings of satipatthana before but I think this possibly clarifies better a discussion some of us had a long time back about a phrase Howard raised in a sutta along the lines of the eightfold path leading to satipatthana. It was most puzzling and we all looked at the Pali, inc. Jim I think. I just forget where it was if anyone remembers or can find it. We raised the lines in Sri lanka, so the discussion was probably in the couple of months before end June 2002. KS explained about the 3 meanings of satipatthana, but these details help a lot (if I’m on the right track;-)) ..... >”This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group. When it is said: ‘There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariya disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,...’” ***** > Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ‘the Master’s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]’, has the following meaning: it is the way along which the Buddha and his >disciples went. ***** I was writing to Nori about how we often imagine that if we could just listen to an arahant teaching Dhamma, our problems would be over. I was saying that ‘swimming against the stream’ really referred to our own kilesa (defilements) and that these interrupt the wise considering all the time. I find it helpful to reflect on how even those like Little Wayman who had this opportunity were not always able to appreciate the message (from his arahant brother) or the way it was conveyed. You wrote: “We read in the ‘Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field’ (Middle length Sayings2 III, no 137): > > When it is said, 3There are three arousings of mindfulness each of which an ariyan disciple practises and, practising which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,2 in reference to what is it said? As to this, monks, a teacher teaches dhamma to his disciples, compassionate, seeking their welfare, out of compassion, saying: ‘This is for your welfare, this is for your happiness.2 But his disciples do not listen, do not lend ear, do not prepare their minds for profound knowledge and, turning aside, move away from the teacher1s instruction. Herein, monks, the Tathågata is neither delighted, he does not experience delight, nor is he annoyed, but he dwells mindful and clearly >conscious (with sati-sampajañña).” ..... It just depends on complex conditions whether we can appreciate wise words we read in the texts or hear at any given time and also whether others do too. Regardless of any result, there is an opportunity at any moment to ‘dwell mindful and clearly conscious (with sati-sampajanna)’. Metta and appreciation, Sarah ====== 25207 From: norakat147 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Sarah, S: > I also think we have to understand the real problems and cause of dukkha > at this very moment rather than thinking about another time or place. So > often when we feel lonely or misunderstood, it shows the deep clinging to > oneself. No metta or understanding at these times. > > I really like the sutta Ray quoted a lot: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.206 > Chappana Sutta > The Six Animals > > (I also compared BBodhi's translation on p1255, vol1SN) > > With non-restraint like the six animals, aren't we intent upon the > pleasant forms, sounds....mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the > displeasing ones? Without mindfulness and detachment, don't we wander > round like the `foul village thorn'*? ----------- Where I get confused is where do I draw the line of how much to tolerate before I take action? At what point does one have aversion to something and make action to avoid it? I think its just natural that: "S: we (are) intent upon the pleasant forms... mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the displeasing ones? " If I were in a burning house, I would leave because I wouldn't want to tolerate the suffering; repelled by what is 'displeasing'. In analogy to this example, one can reply, (not being sarcastic) "well try and understand why you are suffering at this moment in this burning building, its because you are intent upon the pleasant... repelled by the displeasing..." Are we not supposed to be repelled by the displeasing ? This is my most confused (and seemingly hypocritical/paradoxical) issue I have regarding buddhist philosophy: Buddhism instructs those to not have desire or aversion and yet simultaneously, desire and aversion is what guides one's actions (i.e. desire for happiness; aversion to suffering). Buddha defines association with the beloved as dukkha, among other things that are dukkha. (The dukkha in this case comes from aversion). Likewise one will have aversion to say, people stabbing him with a knife, a burning building, etc. (and just asking as a general question regarding the buddhist path and interpreting "aversion" and "desire" when reading scripture...) What do they define those terms to be? ; since, as in my example above, it is impossible not to have them (those feelings). How does one not have aversion or desire ?; How is this possible ? Will appreciate any thoughts you (or anyone) have regarding this. metta, nori PS Thanks for all your replies and thoughts. 25208 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Hi Christine and all, I tend to agree with your points. I would think that alcohol is mind-altering substance that leads to heedlessness. For whatever reason people consume alcohol, they do so at the expense of the clarity of mind. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nina (Ken) and all, [snip] 25209 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vimuttimagga --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Do you think the Vimuttimagga was one of Buddaghosa's sources? > > Larry _____ Dear Larry, I don't think so. I envisage Buddhaghosa to be surrounded by learned arahants as he resided in the Mahavihara, "the abode of all pious [monks]" as it says in the Culavamsa. Why rely on a text outside of the orthodox Theravada, when he already had the complete ancient original commentaries in Sihala language to edit? I think it possible that the Vimuttimagga was composed later by members of the Abhyagiri sect as their equivalent to the Visuddhimagga. RobertK 25210 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:40am Subject: Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hello Nori, Sarah, and all, On the Cooran weekend when discussing supportive communities for lay buddhists, there were similar reactions from some of the group. It had been mentioned that some of us were interested in simpler models of living, maybe even moving from where we were, reducing working hours, and living closer to fellow buddhists in conditions more conducive to Dhamma study and practice. Some of the group reminded us that all there was was the present moment, and no matter where we were realities could be studied, that tension, anxiety, aversion, wanting to be elsewhere, could be insighted as they occur. And I agree. But that is not the point. Gritting ones teeth and staying in situations that can easily be improved is not more saintly than making the choice to live elsewhere. It can simply be clinging to the idea of 'Oh, what a good buddhist I am!' I have lived here for over twenty years - I don't think staying put proves I am any more virtuous or further along the Path than choosing to go. Happy to hear any comments. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" 25211 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:43am Subject: Re: H elp in how to locate a sutta requested Hello Derek, Thank you SO much for this help!! I have printed off your post and stuck it to the bookshelf behind my computer as a template for finding other suttas. I've put the Pali and English versions of this sutta into a word document for comparison and learning purposes. I am getting more adventurous with my Pali after a semester and a half, and want to study something a little different to 'The peacock, having descended from the tree, has gone now to the rock' - which I'm up to in Buddhadatta so far. (Though I'm glad his exercises are there for me to scuttle back to when I feel I've overreached myself. :-)) [I posted this an hour or two ago and it hasn't appeared. Apologies if you get two of them.] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Cameron" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > Can anyone help me understand how to trace the Jivaka Sutta (AN > > VIII.26) 'To Jivaka (On Being a Lay Follower)' in the unfamiliar > > (to me) numbering system used on this site? > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ > > Yes Christine: > > I looked it up on the Access to Insight index of A.N. translations, > where it's noted that A.N. VIII.26 appears in A iv.222, i.e. Pali > Text Society edition volume 4 page 222. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html#8 > > Fortunately the PTS page numbers are given in the Pali text on the > site you are interested in: > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-p.htm > > So this gives the reference of 8.1.3.6. > > 8 -- the major section of the A.N. (A.t.thakanipaatapaa.li) > > 1 -- not sure what this is > > 3 -- the group (Gahapativaggo) > > 6 -- the sutta (Jiivakasutta.m) > > English text is here: > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/003-gahapativaggo-e.htm > > Long links -- you may need to cut'n'paste! > > Derek. 25212 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:07am Subject: The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Dear Group, Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the article by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any comments would be most welcome: "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY by Chittapala Throughout his dispensation Buddha frequently spoke about the dangers of sensual desire, how it can create suffering in this and other lives, and how it is a major obstruction to spiritual development. In his very first discourse Buddha taught that `one gone forth' should not follow either of two extremes, indulgence in sense pleasures or the practice of self-mortiftcation. Rather,it is the Middle Way of practice, the Noble Eightfold Path, avoiding both these extremes which leads to calm, higher knowledge, enlightenment and Nibbana (Samyutta Nikaya VI,ii). In some discourses*where there is a full exposition of the Noble Eightfold Path, the fourth path factor, Right Action is defined with three aspects: refraining from taking life; refraining from stealing; and refraining from sexual misconduct (e.g. Digha Nikaya No.22, Majjhima Nikaya No. 141). It is this third aspect that is intriguing. What relevance does this guideline for sexual behaviour have for the Middle Way which avoids sense pleasure indulgence and leads to enlightenment? Such a guideline is not applicable to the life of `one gone forth' (monk or nun) as the disciplinary code (Patimokkha) prohibits all sexual behaviour. Thus, this guideline applies only to lay practitioners. Refraining from sexual misconduct basically means being responsible in sexual relationships so there is no harm to any party. A possible extended meaning could be stated as moderation and refinement in sexual conduct. Still, the question can be asked: If the Noble Eightfold Path is `the practice way leading to the end of sensual desire' (Anguttara Nikaya VI, 63), wouldn't it be more logical for Right Action to be defined (in it's third aspect) as refraining from ALL sexual behaviour i.e. celibacy? Some light is thrown on this question in the 'Great Forty Discourse' (Majjhima Nikaya,No.117). Here, Buddha distinguishes two types of Right Action. The first type, as described above, is not without taint, associated with merit and creates worldly results. The second type is taintless, noble, supramundane and a factor of the path. Thus there is mundane Right Action which manifests as the three types of bodily restraint. Also, there is the single factor of Right Action on the occasion of the Supramundane Path which performs the triple function of cutting off the mental tendencies towards the three types of Wrong Action. Even though there is this distinction between mundane and supramundane Right Action it doesn't explain why the sexual aspect is explained as refraining from sexual misconduct rather than celibacy. WHY is `refraining from sexual misconduct' included in the Noble Eightfold Path? I will attempt to explain.Now, as in the past, there are great differences in the individual accumulations of Lord Buddha's disciples. Some, on hearing the teachings, will be able to renounce worldly life and become monks and nuns. Some will practice as single celibate lay people, whilst others will practise within relationships or marriages. This last group would be precluded from practising the Noble Eightfold Path if Right Action was defined as total abstinence. Indeed, by maintaining sexual relations they could not fulfil Right Action. Further, if Right Action necessarily equated to total abstinence, some individuals keen to practise the Noble Eightfold Path might forego sexual relations without the mutual consent of their partner. This could cause conflict and disharmony, leading to possible splits in relationships and families. In turn, this would condition some people to be critical of the Buddha's teachings. * Elsewhere,the third factor of Right action is defined as abstaining from sexual intercourse e.g. in Samyutta Nikaya.XL,8 " To be continued......... 25213 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Toby, Again I agree with much (most?) of what you say and certainly on the need to distinguish between ditthi (wrong views), moha (ignorance) and mana (conceit). I think I would just move a few of your goal posts;-) (As an aside, my comments about Bahiya and ‘clinging to an idea of self’ were somewhat inferential. Brahma told him that in spite of his delusions about arahantship and his real jhana attainments, he had not attained to any stage of enlightenment. As we know, sakkaya ditthi (view of self) is only eradicated at the first stage.) --- torloff87048 wrote: > T: In terms of eradicating the defilement of personality view, > it might be helpful to consider the difference between the wrong > view of self and the delusion of self. Personality view belongs to the > cetasika wrong view (ditthi) while the bare belief "I exist" belongs to > the cetasika delusion (moha). .... I would have said the second one referred to mana (conceit) rooted in attachment? In an earlier post I wrote: “ “This is mine, this am I, this is my self” as often quoted. “This is mine” refers to craving, taking objects as belonging to self. “This am I” refers to mana, conceit and “This is my self” refers to the personality belief, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. Nina elaborates on these at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ibs2.html She writes: “In the "Discourse on the Characteristic of Non-Self" quoted above, we read that the Buddha said to the monks: "But is it fit to consider that which is impermanent, dukkha, of a nature to change, as 'This is mine, this am I, this is my self'?" This phrase, often recurring in the scriptures, is deep in meaning. "This is mine" implies craving which appropriates things as the property of self. "This am I" implies conceit, the tendency to compare oneself with others. "This is myself" is a formulation of the personality view, the belief in an abiding self, subsequently identified with the five khandhas. We learn from the Abhidhamma that craving may arise with wrong view or without it. We may, for example, think of "my arms and legs" with attachment, without there necessarily being wrong view. We should know that there is not wrong view all the time when we think of ourselves. Conceit accompanies lobha-mulacitta, citta rooted in attachment. At the moment of conceit there cannot be wrong view at the same time. The ariyans who are not arahats may still have conceit; they have eradicated wrong view but they still may compare themselves with others.” ********** >Speaking conventionally, one might term > the delusion "I exist" a wrong view about self, but this is not the > meaning > of identity view as an aspect of ditthi. The delusion "I exist" may or > may not be accompanied by a wrong view about self. When it is, > that view always takes one of the 20 forms described in the Suttas, > 4 for each of the 5 aggregates, e.g: One regards body as self, or self > as possessing body, or body as in self, or self as in body. ..... Agreed, with the proviso that we’re comparing mana with sakkaya ditthi;-) .... > Personality view is a doctrine held about the self. It can't arise > without > the delusion that self exists, but the delusion of self can be present > without such a doctrine. .... We may have to pause here and clarify terms. Ditthi cannot arise with mana (conceit) but of course moha (ignorance) arises with all unwholesome cittas. Of course, conceit and ignorance are only eradicated by the arahant. I think the characteristic of ignorance is just that of not knowing. ..... >Speaking loosely, one might say that > personality > view is a concretized form of the delusion that self exists. ..... To be honest, I don’t see any suggestion about ‘delusion that self exists’ after self-view has been eradicated in the texts. When there is mana, there is just comparing, rather than any delusion of existing self, as I understand. .... >But in > reality, > personality view has a very different "flavor" than the bare delusion "I > exist." > That's why they belong to different cetasikas. For doctrinal support > for this, > consider the fact that personality view is eradicated upon the first > path > attainment of stream entry, while the delusion of a self can persist all > the > way to the final path attainment of the Arahant. See for example > Samyutta Nikaya 22.89, where the Non-returner Khemaka explains how > the lurking tendency to think "I am" still persists at this stage. ...... This is a very interesting sutta indeed. I understand the lurking tendency to be that of mana, not of a delusion of an existing self. Khemaka replies: “I do not regard anything among these five aggregates subject to clinging as self or as belonging to self, yet I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Friends [the notion] ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, but I do not regard [anything among them] as ‘This I am’. “ B.Bodhi quotes the comy which indicates ‘I am’ (not yet vanished) refers to craving and conceit which have not yet been eradicated. (anusahagato asmii ti maano asmii ti chando). I think the question really relates to the nature of mana (conceit). (You may also like to look at past posts under ‘conceit’ and ‘conceit and wrong view’ in UP). ..... I read your other comments with interest. I’ll just take the last of these for now as this post is already becoming long and I have to go out: [...] >In terms of the original post, there's no "magic" in it. It's not > necessarily > easy, but it's not as hard as one might imagine if one believes that > abandoning personality view is the same as abandoning all delusion > of the existence of a self. ..... As I said, I agree that ditthi should be distinguished from other unwholesome states, but I believe this includes all ‘delusion of an existence of a self’ unless one is simply referring to mana which I wouldn’t translate in this way. I’m also wondering whether there isn’t some idea in these comments of being able to select specific objects to arise and be known and some suggestion of something to be done to ‘abandon personality view’ more easily that might suggest a self being involved;-) I think this is what Nina may have tactfully been suggesting in her original comments to Kio. Greatly appreciate your thought-provoking comments, Toby. Look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ==== 25214 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] ICARO´S DHAMMA DIARY - CHAPTER ZERO ! Dear Icaro, splendid. Let no one say that the abhidhamma is a dry textbook. I am delighted with the way you combine Abhidhamma with your packing and your hectic life now. See below, a few remarks. Where and when in future can we reach you, your personal Email or dsg? op 10-09-2003 22:42 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > Objects Bases > 1. form - rupa > 2. sound - sadda > 3. odor - gandha > 4. taste - rasa > 5. eye - cakkhu > 6. ear - sota > 7. nose - ghana > 8. tongue - jivha > (tangibility - iphothavva - has an uncertain rule on this list...) N: look under10, 11,12, pathavii: earth element: appearing as hardness or softness temperature, tejo (note spelling): appearing as heat or cold wind, vayo: appearing as motion or pressure. These are three of the Four great elements (mahaabhuuthas) which are tangible object, Pho.t.thabba. Water, cohesion, apo, can only be experienced through the mind-door. Pho.t.thabba is appearing time and again, when touching objects such as a rifle (I am really worried about firing, hope you will be extra careful), or while running, putting on boots. When standing in the sun, it is hot. Heat appears, but there is also the citta experiencing heat, body-consciousness. Nama is different from rupa. We have to learn, otherwise we think of "I am experiencing" all the time. I: These twelve senses and objects are "gross" - olarikarupam. > The other is subtle - that Blunt of Mohammed!!! - sukhumarupam. N: Yes, cohesion is subtle. I: 14. Jivita - life principle - this Paramattha Dhamma is very > important to cultural life, let us see how: > rupa ----------- > gandha | > rasa | > oja (nourishment) | > |- 8 factors of matter, inseparable (avinibhoga) > pathavi | > tezo | > vayo | > apo ----------- > > All material phenomena is composed of these factors, that cannot > be separated from the phenomena. They are know as Suddhatthaka > Rupakalapa (pure octad material group N: Kamma produces the rupa which is Jivita - life principle, and this is only present in rupas of the body, not in rupas outside. thus, the kalapas of the body have at least nine rupas. - I: Material qualities of sex = 15. femminity (itthibhava) (7) > 16. masculinity (pumbhava) (8) N: spelling: purisa bhava. This will be my favorite litterature!!! Thrilled, looking forward to the next ones, I can't wait!!! With much appreciation, Nina. 25215 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:42am Subject: Cats and Dogs - and things that go whoosh! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Azita, > -snip- > On the contrary, I'm saying I really sympathise. I had this happen so many > times for the first couple of years or more of DSG and so often would be > retyping in a frustrated state of mind. -snip- > Thanks as always and I hope you find enough metta for us all to rewrite > some or most of your whooshed away post. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > dear Sarah, thanks for you support and kind words. I was ready to put an axe thro the monitor, then I remembered that a machine is only as good as its operator - so where to put the axe?? Back outside. Cooran: lots of lively discussion over most of the w/e. Practically all, presented a paper and then we talked about aspects of each paper. Death was a topic at one stage, and I think death is not talked about enuff bec of all things, it is the one event that all of us must experience, again and again and again. Before there is another whoosh! let me relate the story about the proposed retirement dwelling. There were not many of the cittas that cause the lips to smile gently without showing the teeth, no, they were the sort of cittas that cause the head to be thrown back and loud noises come from the throat, in my case anyway. Imagine in the morning, an elderly man tottering down the hill, with two plastic bags in either hand. in these bags are the cockroachs that were caught in the night, by leaving plates of food out so that we could catch them. The elderly man reached the bottom of the hill and released the creatures, knowing full well that they would probably be the same ones that will be caught tonite. The neighbours watch in amazement, 'those weirdo Buddhists do that EVERY morning'. May all beings be happy, Azita. [to be cont] 25216 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: We are *very* close. J: That's a very pleasant change ;-)). ... ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, of course I don't know. What I believe, however, is that there is no difference between the enlightenment of a Buddha and any other arahant. Now, whether an "ordinary" arahant can only discern *groups* of dhammas (which, in fact would only be concepts), and the discerning of individual dhammas and their features is the province solely of Buddhas, with their perfection of wisdom, I certainly don't know .. but I would doubt it. ------------------------------------------------- J: I can understand your reservations about any position that asserts that an "ordinary" arahant can only discern *groups* of dhammas, not single dhammas. But that isn't what I was suggesting. I was focussing on the question of whether, in discerning a single dhamma, there is discernment of a single mind-moment of that dhamma. I was suggesting that the discernment is much less precise than that i.e., without the single-moment aspect of mind-states being apparent. I brought this up because I think that correct intellectual understanding of what happens at moments of insight is an important part of the necessary groundwork that we agree is so importantly here. Or to put it another way, any misconception at an intellectual level about the nature or function of awareness/insight could easily be a condition for wrong practice. To clarify, I agree that it is single dhammas that are experienced by awareness/insight, but I would not see this as being single mind-moments of those dhammas (I don't know if this makes sense). > > [In fact, according to the texts, even the the fact of the > momentary > > nature of dhammas does not become apparent *to direct awareness* > > until an advanced stage -- I would suggest that our perception of > the > > momentary nature of dhammas is in truth an inference drawn from > an > > observation of the fact of changes occurring over a span of mind > > moments, not because of developed awareness at a moment-to-moment > > level. But I digress.] > > > > What I am saying is that although fundamental phenomena are to be > > known individually, this does not mean they have to be or can be > > known in units of a single moment. For example, the dhamma that > is > > visible-object can be known as the object that is being > experienced > > through the eye-door, and as different from the consciousness by > > which the object is being perceived, without there being the > > perception of a *mere single moment* of visible-object. The > > perception occurs over a span of moments. At such moments there > is a > > glimmer of light through the 'cloudiness and murkiness' you > mention. > > Every such glimmer, no matter how weak or rare in occurrence, is > so > > valuable, since it accumulates and becomes a condition (by > natural > > decisive support condition) for another such occurrence in the > > future. > > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I suspect this is quite so .. at all stages less than arahant. [BTW, if you are correct, then the Mahayanists know what they are talking about when they say that the goal of the "hinayanists" is a lesser one.] ------------------------------------------------- J: I'm afraid I don't follow (is there some misunderstanding, I wonder). Would you mind making the connection a little clearer . Thanks. ... ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, for sure! There is no successful "attempting" to see these things so far as I can tell. The only successful attempting is the ongoing effort to engage in study, contemplation, guarding the senses, calming the mind through samatha technique, and ongoing mindfulness as possible - that is, continued cultivation, preparing the field so that seeds can sprout when conditions are right. ----------------------------------------------------- J: Yes. Any attempting that is done with the idea of inducing insight to arise cannot be successful. The only successful attempting is the study, contemplation, etc that, as it were, lays the foundation for the arising of moments of insight in the future. These of course must be moments of kusala, free from any expectation of immediate or direct 'result'. And when the seeds do sprout, and moments of awareness /insight occur, they are themselves accompanied by the factor of energy/effort (viriya), according to the texts. So whatever else may be counted as right energy/effort, these moments certainly are that, too. Another important aspect of such moments of insight is their role in the breaking down of the 'reification' of a personal self and external objects, a matter that you correctly emphasise. When, for example, visible-object is seen as visible-object, different from the seeing consciousness by which it is being experienced, there is, right then and there, a breaking down of the idea of a self and external objects. (This of course is not apparent at the time but becomes apparent some time later -- the adze-handle simile). ... -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt, Jon. A moment of insight is like turning on the light in a darkened convention meeting room. It does help, however, if when the light is turned on, the air filtration system has already temporarily cleared out all the cigar smoke. -------------------------------------------------- J But in the ultimate analysis, if the only true fix is turning on the lights, and if we are fortunate enough to have available to us for just the briefest time the information that is key to doing just that, should we give that our absolute priority? (This of course is not to deny the great usefulness of the air filtration system, or the fact that if that system was already up and running then the experience of the lights coming on would be that much more intense.) Jon 25217 From: norakat147 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi nina & all, Recap: > Nori: Also: While rupa can exist independent of (without) nama; does nama depend on rupa to exist? i.e. our body including our brain, nervous system, etc. is made up of rupa (unconscious elemental matter/atoms/molecules) from the earth ... > Nina: in the plane where there are nama and rupa, like this plane, nama can condition rupa and rupa can condition nama. > Nori: This (the latter; nama dependence on rupa) is evident by experiments of the body. Adding/taking away hormones and other brain chemicals can create/conjure/effect (artificial) feelings. lobotomies, old age, brain experiments, etc. have shown to effect ones perception, thinking and state of conciousness. > Nina: Right, see above. > Nina. ---------------- TG post: "This body of mine, made of material form, consisting of the four great elements, procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and porridge, is subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to dissolution and disintegration, and this consciousness of mine is supported by it and bound up with it." (The Buddha. . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 642, Mahasakuludayi Sutta, The Greater Discourse to Sakuludayin.) ----------------- Nina: Hi TG, op 10-09-2003 05:24 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > "eyeŠ earŠ noseŠ tongueŠ bodyŠ mind; are derived from the Four Great > Elements..." > (Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, paragraphs 371-377 Nina: certainly. But, kamma produces them, and keeps on producing them throughout life. Kamma is mental. ------------------ OK, I'm thoroughly confused. Did nama come from rupa / nama sustained by rupa ? or Did rupa come from nama / rupa sustained by nama ? From my experiences - while it is plainly evident by common sense and observation that rupa at the least, conditions nama (if not creating and sustaining it all together), I still fail to see/observe the evidence on how nama creates/conditions/sustains rupa. After all, it was clearly stated several times on earlier posts that rupa can exist independently without nama. ------------------- also, Contemplating this brought to mind the term: 'dependent co-arising' (paticca samuppada) since they both (i.e. nama and rupa) 'depended' on each other. I was wondering if the term 'dependent co-arising' and the following sutta was related in any way to this discussion? I may be completely wrong in interpreting this since I don't quite comprehend the sutta (would appreciate any insight/interpretation on this sutta and whether it relates): in Digha Nikaya 15 Maha-nidana Sutta The Great Causes Discourse (Dependent Co-arising) "..."Thus, Ananda, from name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?) as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?). From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress. " ---------------- .. or am I completely wrong in interpreting "name-and-form" as nama and rupa as we are using in this discussion ? Nama is defined as: 1) vedana - feeling 2) sanna - sense perception/accumilation 3) sankhara - thought formation 4) vinnana - conciousness (...if nama is already defined as part feeling and conciousness how could it be a requisite to itself in this sutta? ... I'm prrobably just interpreting name-and-form on this sutta wrong(?)) comments appreciated. peace, nori 25218 From: Robert Eddison Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:13am Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga Larry wrote: >Hi Robert, > >Do you think the Vimuttimagga was one of Buddaghosa's sources? If another Robert may be permitted to butt in.... There's no doubt that Buddhaghosa was acquainted with the Vimuttimagga. However, on the very few occasions he alludes to it, it is only in order to cite and then reject one or another of Upatissa's views. If you have Nyanamoli's translation of the Visuddhimagga you will find one example in the discussion of the cause of the first three of the six character types. See Path of Purification ch. III 80-82 and Nyanamoli's endnote III 19. The latter cites the Paramatthamanjusa (Dhammapala's commentary to the Visuddhimagga), in which the identification of Upatissa and the Vimuttimagga is made explicit. On the other hand, it is interesting that both Upatissa and Buddhaghosa use the seven purifications as the skeleton of their work. Given that this particular formulation of the path is not especially prominent in the Suttas, I think it is unlikely to be just a coincidence that both authors chose to use it. As far as I'm aware there's no clear evidence of whether this was because B was using U as his source, or both B and U were using some common source, or simply that expounding the path in terms of the seven visuddhi was the done thing at that time. If I had to choose among the three possibilities I would probably go for the third. Best wishes, Robert 25219 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Hi, Jon - I'm skipping the earlier part of your post which involves,among other things, the distinctions between Buddhas and other arahants, which I discussed rather unclearly, and which isn't all that important anyway. What I am including is the final part of our conversation which I think is quite important, and which delights me in that it shows us to be VERY much "on the same page" as regards practice/cultivation and issues of "control". I find it amazing (and quite pleasant) that we actually are very close on this matter. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/11/03 7:27:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard: > Oh, for sure! There is no successful "attempting" to see these > things so far as I can tell. The only successful attempting is the > ongoing effort to engage in study, contemplation, guarding the > senses, calming the mind through samatha technique, and ongoing > mindfulness as possible - that is, continued cultivation, preparing > the field so that seeds can sprout when conditions are right. > ----------------------------------------------------- > > J: Yes. Any attempting that is done with the idea of inducing > insight to arise cannot be successful. > > The only successful attempting is the study, contemplation, etc that, > as it were, lays the foundation for the arising of moments of insight > in the future. These of course must be moments of kusala, free from > any expectation of immediate or direct 'result'. > > And when the seeds do sprout, and moments of awareness /insight > occur, they are themselves accompanied by the factor of energy/effort > (viriya), according to the texts. So whatever else may be counted as > right energy/effort, these moments certainly are that, too. > > Another important aspect of such moments of insight is their role in > the breaking down of the 'reification' of a personal self and > external objects, a matter that you correctly emphasise. When, for > example, visible-object is seen as visible-object, different from > the seeing consciousness by which it is being experienced, there is, > right then and there, a breaking down of the idea of a self and > external objects. (This of course is not apparent at the time but > becomes apparent some time later -- the adze-handle simile). > > ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No doubt, Jon. A moment of insight is like turning on the > light in a darkened convention meeting room. It does help, however, > if when the light is turned on, the air filtration system has already > temporarily cleared out all the cigar smoke. > -------------------------------------------------- > > J But in the ultimate analysis, if the only true fix is turning on > the lights, and if we are fortunate enough to have available to us > for just the briefest time the information that is key to doing just > that, should we give that our absolute priority? (This of course is > not to deny the great usefulness of the air filtration system, or the > fact that if that system was already up and running then the > experience of the lights coming on would be that much more intense.) > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25220 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Dear Nina, Jim, Azita, Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the article > by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any > comments would be most welcome: > > "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY > > by Chittapala ..... Nina, you may remember Chittapala from Sri Lanka ‘79 when he and several other western monks came from Thailand to join the discussions. Azita was there too of course with baby Zoe;-) I just looked at the picture of monks in the 'others' album, but I don't think he's in it. At that time his name was B.Jotapanna (sp?) but for reasons he told me and I've forgotten he changed it to B. Chittapala. He’s been disrobed and living in Australia for around 10 or 15 yrs (?). We met up with him on one visit to Sydney and he called us when we were last in Noosa. Jim, he’s living a really secluded and solitary lifestyle on an island off the Queensland coast (funnily enough where Jon’s parents had a holiday home for a long time). He has no computer and very limited means but Azita has been keeping contact with him as she has with Sundara/Kiernan, the other ex monk who now joins the Cooran weekends and who joined us when we were in Noosa (and who posted once under Christine’s watchful eye). Lots of anumodana for Azita. I mention all this because I’m sure any replies to the article or general encouragement will be transmitted back to him by Azita (with Christine’s help perhaps) and he may join us here in time if he doesn’t see the internet as too much of an intrusion;-) --- gazita2002 wrote: > -snip- > > thanks for you support and kind words. I was ready to put an axe > thro the monitor, then I remembered that a machine is only as good > as its operator - so where to put the axe?? Back outside. ..... I know that feeling and so glad you were restrained;-) Sounds like you all had lots of fun, especially Azita on the proposed retirement dwelling. Jim, let me tell you that this girl is the expert on simple living. Minimalist would be an overstatement for the way she and a few other Buddhist friends of ours used to live in a small community;-) She still enjoys the nomadic lifestyle and has great survival skills. I still remember being shown how to neatly deal with leeches in the dozens by rolling them into a ball and gently plucking them off the body. ..... > The neighbours watch in amazement, 'those weirdo Buddhists do > that EVERY morning'. .... She’s seen it all and would never be fazed at what the neighbours might think;-) >[to be cont] That’s a promise, right? Look forward to it, Azita - enjoying all the varied reports on the weekend. Slowly Nina and I are getting the full picture;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 25221 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Dear Larry, The Book of Analysis has the same text, but the co: Dispeller Of Delusionp. 156-158, has many explanations. We see in the texts : what is reasoned (cinta) concerns worldly matters, science etc. but also the Dhamma: knowing that kamma is one's own, about the Truths, about impermanence. Knowledge in conformity with truth (Disp 2074): Thus we see it includes insight knowledge, but without hearing it from another. No 2076 explains:< ...But (this understanding) does not arise in just anyone; it arises only in very well-known great beings. And herein, the knowledge in conformity with truth arises only in two kinds of Bodhisatta [note: Pacceka (solitary) Buddhas and Sammasambuddhas]. The remaining understanding [N: impermanence, etc.] arises in all those of great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections; it should be understood in this way.> Then about understanding that one acquires by hearing it from > another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt > (heard): No 2077: By seeing spheres of work being done by another... hearing anybody's words...learning under a teacher...> By development: no 2078: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga)ch. XIV > > [How many kinds of understanding are there?] > > 14. 7. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing > from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is > produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from > another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by > hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow > produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in > development". 25222 From: torloff87048 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, Thanks for your response to my post. What you said about the bare belief "I exist" (without personality view present) being an aspect of conceit, not delusion, makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. In terms of how personality view (and other defilements) are completely eradicated, probably each of us must discover that for ourselves through experience. I hope that your study and practice are leading you in this direction. Metta, Toby 25223 From: torloff87048 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re:Vism XIV, 7 (4) Hi Sarah, You may well be right about concepts being actual objects of citta even though they are not ultimate realities in any form. It's a curious notion that is beyond my ability to directly discern. My way of looking at the matter comes more from a certain intellectual and aesthetic sense than direct knowledge, so there is plenty of room for misguided speculation on my part. In college, I had a professor who spoke sometimes of "being wrong in a good way." May we all be wrong in a good way! Metta, Toby 25224 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:04pm Subject: Re: Vimuttimagga --- Dear Robert, Thanks for this correction. I checked the Tika and there is the reference as you said! Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Eddison wrote: > > There's no doubt that Buddhaghosa was acquainted with the Vimuttimagga. > However, on the very few occasions he alludes to it, it is only in order to > cite and then reject one or another of Upatissa's views. If you have > Nyanamoli's translation of the Visuddhimagga you will find one example in > the discussion of the cause of the first three of the six character types. > See Path of Purification ch. III 80-82 and Nyanamoli's endnote III 19. The > latter cites the Paramatthamanjusa (Dhammapala's commentary to the > Visuddhimagga), in which the identification of Upatissa and the > Vimuttimagga is made explicit. > > On the other hand, it is interesting that both Upatissa and Buddhaghosa use > the seven purifications as the skeleton of their work. Given that this > particular formulation of the path is not especially prominent in the > Suttas, I think it is unlikely to be just a coincidence that both authors > chose to use it. As far as I'm aware there's no clear evidence of whether > this was because B was using U as his source, or both B and U were using > some common source, or simply that expounding the path in terms of the > seven visuddhi was the done thing at that time. If I had to choose among > the three possibilities I would probably go for the third. > > Best wishes, > > Robert 25225 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah I just have to jump in here. If indeed you stated the below, how is it possible to separate delusion from conceit? Is not delusion the foundation for unwholesome states? I would suggest that its impossible to have the bare belief "I exist" without some level of personality view being present. TG In a message dated 9/11/2003 11:31:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, torloff87048@y... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for your response to my post. What you said about the bare belief "I > exist" (without personality view present) being an aspect of conceit, not > delusion, makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. > > In terms of how personality view (and other defilements) are completely > eradicated, probably each of us must discover that for ourselves through > experience. I hope that your study and practice are leading you in this direction. > > Metta, Toby > 25226 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Hi Robert K. & Robert E., My view is that Buddhaghosa used the Vimuttimagga as the scaffolding or frame work for the Visuddhimagga. I find many similarities between the two works, much more than just the theme of the purifications. For example, it looks like the list of "kinds of understanding" is something the author of Vimm. put together and Buddhaghosa modified. It doesn't appear to be canonical. It is these differences that can give us a little insight into Buddhaghosa the man, his judgement and choices. We have no other clue as to what sort of material he was working with. To portray him as a mere copyist, someone who simply translated other peoples' commentaries does his image a disservice, imo. But on the other hand I don't think it is correct to say the Visuddhimagga is a completely original work. It seems more likely he was a synthesizer and editor, bringing together many resources. One thing that is particularly interesting to me is that I thought the interest in "The Path of Discrimination" was a peculiarity of Buddhaghosa but because it is also given considerable discussion in the Vimuttimagga indicates that there was possibly a more general interest in this way of looking at things. I guess it comes down to what kind of image we want to imagine, which is fine, as long as we remember that it is all imaginary. Larry 25227 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Hi Nina, Thanks for all the citations on insight knowledge. Insight knowledge is reason. Interesting. I'm going to have to meditate on this. Do we know any more about this word cinta (reason) or how reason works? Larry Nina: "what is reasoned (cinta) concerns worldly matters, science etc. but also the Dhamma: knowing that kamma is one's own, about the Truths, about impermanence. Knowledge in conformity with truth (Disp 2074): Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Issues , no 8. Slandering Dear Nina, Thanks to your reply. --------------- > N: Latent tendencies (not past kammas) are eradicated > at the different stages of enlightenment. --------------- I see, thank you. In my previous post, I was thinking of how a murderer who became a sotapanna, would be spared the lowly-rebirths conditioned by his past kammas. That's why I misunderstood you to be saying they were eradicated. But I can see now, that this is not necessarily so; the past deeds of the ariyan don't need to magically disappear, their results can simply fail to come to fruition. (because of other, overriding conditions) ---------------- > Kamma-patha is mental ---------------- Yes, I tend to forget that. And they actually include six mental actions don't they. I more or less understand how those six differ from thought (vitakka), but I'd find it hard to explain. ----------------- > it is the cetasika which is cetana, intention. --------------- Thanks for pointing that out. Is it possible to be more specific? For example, can it be said that killing, slandering, rude speech and ill-will are cetana with dosa as root condition? (And that their opposites are cetana with adosa?) Are stealing, foolish babble and covetousness cetana with lobha? (And are their opposites cetana with alobha?) Are sexual misconduct, lying and evil views cetana with lobha and wrong view? I'm getting ahead of myself -- too much theorising. But it's tempting to think of the absolute opposite of these last three as; living in conformity with the rules of Vinaya, teaching Dhamma and attaining enlightenment :-) ------------------ I do not see it as conventional truth. But perhaps you think of the whole situation? ------------------ Well, this is where I'm getting tangled up. Can the 20 kamma-pathas be specifically identified among the 89 cittas? If so, then they must be paramattha dhammas but if not, then they would seem to be concepts. (The same question applies to the precepts and the fetters.) I've just deleted the remainder of this post; it had become totally confused and unintelligible. After returning from Brisbane and spending half a day on this, I've fallen two days behind in my dsg reading. A quick look shows me that some people have been taking my name in vain! I'd better straighten them out :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25229 From: Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:13pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 15 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. 25230 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Ken .. ,er Howard, uh ...) - > > > there might be confusion, such as on a thread > that both Ken H and I are both participating. If anyone > wishes, instead of calling me "Howard" in such a > context, you can use my intials "HCW" instead. (Ken, > should we call you "Howard" on DSG?) Thanks Howard but that won't be necessary. Even though my given names are Kenneth Howard (in that order), I have always been known as Howard. After 53 years of confusing situations, please don't worry, I'm used to it. You joined dsg ahead of me and so calling myself Ken seemed the natural thing to do. Then Kenneth Ong joined, and I became Ken H. But since then, Ken O has selflessly changed his monogram to KC. He did this to let me drop the H and go back to just plain Ken. But I think everyone prefers to call Ken O by his real name. Besides, it suits me to keep the H -- people who know me as Howard are reminded by it. Is everything as clear as mud? :-) Ken H 25231 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. Hi Larry, op 11-09-2003 00:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Any ideas on in what sense seeing nibbana is seeing? N: seeing, daasana, means understanding. Panna which is lokuttara comprehends, realizes nibbana. Nina 25232 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi Nori, Buddhist Publication Society, Sri Lanka, Has: The Great Discourse on Causation, with co, by B.Bodhi. I have it and have to study it now. Rob K made a lot of study of this subject. Sometimes nama means cetasikas, or specific ones, we have to be careful here. Nina. op 11-09-2003 14:06 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > Digha Nikaya 15 > Maha-nidana Sutta > The Great Causes Discourse 25233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi TG, op 11-09-2003 02:37 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...:> > If you don't mind, let me clarify something, just to make sure I have it > right. Am I right to consider inanimate objects (such as a desk) to be > composed > of rupa? It seems from some of your descriptions that perhaps rupa is only > considered matter associated with a sentient being? N: No inanimate rupas and rupas of the body. The rupas in a table are conditioned by temperature, and those of the body by kamma, citta, temperature and food. T G > When I think in terms of conditionality and impermanence I think in terms of > animate and inanimate states. The Buddha uses inanimate states on a regular > basis for analogies and demonstrations of impermanence and conditionality. N: He taught the conditionality of the rupa and nama of our life. They are going on now by conditions. TG: I agree that kamma continues the causal cycle of sentient systems (humans for > example). I'm interested in the causes of the initial cognitive moments that > produce a "kamma driven" sentient system. Not during rebirth, but in the > evolutionary sense. N: I do not understand your Q, sorry. TG: There is a sutta (I think in Majjhima) where the Buddha says "...some monks > have liberated their minds by insight into the Four Great Elements..." In > this > sutta, he is describing several (about 8) different approaches that lead to > liberation and this is one of them. I think there is more to the Four Great > Elements as "causal principles" than they are usually given credit for. N: the Four Great Elements are the rupas on which the derived rupas depend (see Icaros' diary).Rupas arise in groups, kalapas, of at least 8 rupas, and among them are the Four Great Elements. Three of these are tactile object: earth, fire and wind. No matter what you do, where you go, they appear. Just in our natural life, as Icaro demonstrated. He reminded me today, when walking to the hairdresser, being in that busy shop, standing in the kitchen: rupas inside and outside. We have to learn the difference between nama and rupa, otherwise we shall never be liberated. Nina. 25234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14 Hi Larry, we just learnt that thought out, cinta, not having heard from another as regards dhamma, is not for ordinary people. Heard, yes. Developed, yes. Nina. op 11-09-2003 00:57 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > What kind of understanding is satipatthana: thought out, heard, or > development? 25235 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi TG, You wrote: --------------- > It is this notion of things "arising then immediately > passing away" that I do not agree with nor do I find > any indication that the Buddha speaks in that regard. ---------------- There are suttas, I am told, in which the Buddha speaks about the brevity of nama and rupa. He says, for example, "Nothing do I know that is briefer than this consciousness," or words to that effect. But how else could it be? In the present moment, the past is gone and the future has not yet arrived. How long does it take things of the present to become things of the past? (the past being a mythical land that doesn't exists.) What I find surprising is that anything really exists at all! I think the ultimate existence of 'anything at all' is what people in the Buddha's time needed convincing of. He explained that the five khandhas ultimately exist. --------------------- > My view, which I believe is the way the suttas > represent it, is that states are continually altering > in form, some slowly, some fast depending on > conditions. -------------- How can a state that is altered, possibly be the same state? Surely, a new, slightly different state has arisen. ------------------ > > TG: >The Buddha said that:-- states arise, > > > persist while changing, then cease. > -------------- > > > > Howard: Sounds like Abhidhamma to me. > > > I was not making any arguement regarding the above > comment. If that sounds like abhidhamma that's great > because it definitely is the sutta approach. ------------------- Oh, I see what you mean. I hadn't appreciated the significance of the words "while changing." Blame it on Howard :-) Otherwise, it is Dhamma (Abhidhamma and Sutta-dhamma). Sometimes, states are said to arise and fall away; sometimes they are said to arise, persist and fall away. Whichever way you look at it, they have been and gone in a billionth of a second. --------------- > Are you suggesting there are no living beings? To say > there is no self or soul is one thing. To suggest > there are no living beings is another. Living beings > are "systems" that are composed of elements and > aggregates and they indeed do get born, grow old, and > die. Regarding peoples birth, growing old, and > dying, the Buddha teaches this so often there's no > point in looking for a single source. The > Visuddhimagga speaks of developing insight into > impermanence by contemplating "the first stage of life, > the middle stage of life, the last stage of life." And > the Visuddhimaga teaches many other insight devices > that take into account the life span of a human. ------------------- I have left that unabridged because I like it so much. It is like most of the suttas in that it is couched in conventional language. When we listen to suttas with an appreciation of the Middle Way, they are the most beautiful prose of all. In the Middle Way, only khandhas exist. They arise and immediately pass away. There is nothing to admire about them; they are transitory, indifferent, soulless phenomena. When the Buddha speaks of chariots, living beings, any conventional realities at all, we dutifully remember the ultimate realities he has painstakingly explained. Then, his conventional words are miraculously heard with wordless, Middle-Way understanding. ----------------- > Do you think modern science has a complete > understanding of matter in this regard? As far as I > last read, modern science doesn't know for sure what an > atom looks like, or whether photons are waves or > articals or both or neither. > They have lots of theories though and many of them are > contradictory. -------------- I think science, in its way, has amazing certainty. Scientists often admit that there is "uncertainty" but many non-scientists are too quick to seize upon that. Pseudo (New Age), scientists claim, for example, that Chaos Theory is an admission of massive unpredictability but actually, the theory is anything but chaotic -- it precisely traces cause and effect back to the Big Bang. (Not that I understand it, I'm not a scientist either.) ---------------- > "My Theory" of the rise and fall of states is:-- "This > being, that is. With the arising of this, that arises. > This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, > that ceases." > Actually its the Buddha's Teaching, not my theory, and > its the primary model by which I view the > world...conditionality, impermanence, no-self, etc. > --------------- I agree entirely; we must 'see conditionality everywhere, in all things.' But that can be understood in several, conflicting ways. So, we have to read more and eliminate explanations that are inconsistent with what we have read. When we have read the entire Sutta-pitaka, there may still be more than one consistent interpretation and so we have to consider all three pitakas and their ancient commentaries. When there is only one interpretation that is consistent with the whole lot then we can be confident we know what the Buddha taught. That's when our own, personal theories are worth listening to :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25236 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Hi all, It is interesting to note that in the Digha Nikaya 15, Maha-nidana Sutta, that nama-and-rupa are both prerequisites to consciousness (vinnana) and feeling (vedana). -------------- > Digha Nikaya 15 > Maha-nidana Sutta > The Great Causes Discourse > > (Dependent Co-arising) > > "..."Thus, Ananda, from nama-and-rupa as a requisite > condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite > condition comes nama-and-rupa. From nama-and-rupa as a > requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite > condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes > craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From > clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a > requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, > aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come > into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress. " ------------ Many interpret nama to be four of the khandas viz.: 1) vedana - feeling 2) sanna - sense perception/accumilation 3) sankhara - Thought formation 4) vinnana - conciousness (mind, life force extending over rebirths) This definition does not fit in this case since nama is a prerequisite to two of these (khandas) (viz. consciousness (vinnana) and feeling (vedana).) I am suspecting the latter to be a later interpretation of nama since this does not fit with some of the older suttas. In a definition made by Nagasena in the Milindha-Panha /Questions of king Milinda: (which by the way is highly authoritive in Ceylon second only to the nikayas; quoted and used as a reference by Budhaghosa in his great works ( quoted on Ambattha Sutta, manoratha purani, comy on Anguttara) --------------- Miln. II, 2, 8 "The king said: `you were talking just now of nama-and-rupa. What does "nama" mean in that expression and what "rupa"?' `Whatever is gross therein, that is "rupa": whatever is subtle, mental, that is "nama."' `Why is it, nagasena, that nama is not reborn separately, or rupa separately?' `These conditions, great king, are connected one with the other; and spring into being together.' `Give me an illustration.' `As a hen, great king, would not get a yoke or an egg-shell separately, but both would arise in one, they two being intimately dependent one on the other; just so, if there were no nama there would be no rupa. What is meant by nama in that expression being intimately dependent on what is meant by rupa, they spring up together. And this is through time immemorial, their nature.' -------------------- I think the most distinguishing factors of nama and rupa that stand out in this case, and in the PTS pali-eng dictionary are: "`Whatever is gross therein, that is "rupa": whatever is subtle, … that is "nama."' Gross: (Mer-webster) immediately obvious: plain, evident, visible, manifest, perceptible to senses (PTS Pali-eng dict.) rupa: form, visible factor ------------- Subtle: (Mer-webster) Subtle – ( a) marked by minute perception, discernment), elusive (elude b: to escape the perception/notice of), b) obscure, c) hard to distinguish or describe (PTS) Nama – abstract, logical, invisible ... factor -------------- I think we should be careful when considering the word `mind' and 'matter' in the traditional (english) sense when considering nama- and-rupa, taking into consideration, as stated previously that nama- and-rupa is a prerequisite to consciousness (vinnana) and feeling (vedana). To use a language with its words (viz. English) is to also consent to its metaphysical system/ideology/model. What Buddha perceived is a wholly different metaphysical system/ideology/model. And so, in essence what we are trying to do is match symbols/words between two entirely different models which is, ultimately, impossible since the words/symbols do not exist to match. When we think of `mind' or 'matter' in English, we also think of our currently assumed and accepted model of reality; nama-and-rupa is likely entirely different with what we associate with "mind" and "matter". We must be careful to not take things so literally and grasp for what really exists - in reality – as it is. Metta, nori 25237 From: norakat147 Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:51am Subject: Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma usage hi nina, all, I see your point; while I am not certain of the validity of the authors view of the article I posted, the fact still remains that there have been many opponents to both the abhidamma and Visuddhimagga. I am wondering: Why read and reference later re-interpretations and commentary ? Is it necessary ? Is not the totality of the Buddhas teachings contained within the four Nikayas ? Comments are appreciated. metta, nori 25238 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re Chittapala and simply living. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Nina, Jim, Azita, Christine & All, > Dear Sarah, A correction on Chittapala - he does have a computer these days and he is actually a real computer 'nerd' - his very own words. His elderly mum has talked him into it, so they can communicate! Other than that, he does live very simply and has very few possessions. Cooran: on the trip from Brisbane to Cooran, I made a flippant statement about dogs having more Moha than humans and was almost set upon by the other two in the car [not mentioning names], to explain myself. How did I know this bit of info. and could I prove it?!? Well, I had to quickly backtrack bec I couldn't explain 'how I knew'' but somehow it feels like a correct statement. Dogs seem to sleep a lot and they do seem a bit dopey. I'll probably have the wrath of dog lovers down on me, but aren't animals born so bec they have been stupid??? Maybe not worth answering. You also mentioned simple living. Yes, I am quite good at that and I'm wondering if it's bec. I really could not be fussed looking after all the things one tends to collect. I remember my ex partner was a real Steptoe, had heaps of stuff and I often felt cluttered by all these possessions. However, I'm not convinced that it has much to do with being wholesome really - not that that is what you are saying. I think the real wholesomness comes from having a mind as clean and a clear as an empty house. However, that state is far away for me and in the meantime, I live the way I live, good states, bad states, all coming and going, not me, not mine, not myself. May we all be happy, Azita. 25239 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/11/03 7:20:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > To > portray him as a mere copyist, someone who simply translated other > peoples' commentaries does his image a disservice, imo. But on the other > hand I don't think it is correct to say the Visuddhimagga is a > completely original work. It seems more likely he was a synthesizer and > editor, bringing together many resources. > ======================== As I recall, the Theravadin academic Kalupahana refers to Buddhaghosa as "The Great Harmonizer," which is quite close to your "synthesizer." (Kalupahana uses this terminology despite his grave reservations about some of Buddhaghosa's work, which evidently shows a grudging respect for Buddhaghosa.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25240 From: Sarah Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vimuttimagga Hi Roberts E (RobertK& Larry), It’s great to see another example of the familiarity you have with the texts, Robert. Good to see you! I’m appreciating all the contributions on this thread very much as I’ve often wondered about this text. Thanks for raising it too, Larry. ..... --- Robert Eddison wrote: > On the other hand, it is interesting that both Upatissa and Buddhaghosa > use > the seven purifications as the skeleton of their work. Given that this > particular formulation of the path is not especially prominent in the > Suttas, I think it is unlikely to be just a coincidence that both > authors > chose to use it. ..... I know very little about this, however Malalasekera in ‘The Pali Literature of Ceylon’ gives quite a lot of detail on this whole issue (pp85-88) and it sounds logical to me, so I'll just parrot some of it. In brief, after a summary of similarities and differences inc. non- Theravada influences in the Vimuttimagga, he rejects Mr Ngai’s conclusion in JPTS 1917-19 that Vism. is a revised edition of Vimuttimagga. He writes that we can take the Vimuttimagga to be the result of books bought by Guna-bhadra of Mid-India, from his travels to Sri Lanka and elsewhere. In other words, “both authors drew their inspiration from the same sources.” He suggests there is a lot in common in their detail of Abhidhamma and indeed Buddhaghosa’s first book was the ~Naa.noodaya, a treatise on Abhidhamma written before he went to Sri Lanka. He was sent to S.L. to get the complete collection of commentaries because, to quote Malalasekera, “ as his teacher tells him ‘The Sinhalese Atthakathaa are genuine; the text alone (of the Pi.taka-ttaya) is preserved in this land; the Atthakathaa are not extant.’ This does not mean that some, at least, of the commentaries were not studied in India, especially in view of the existence of the Sinhalese Sa”nghaaraama at the Bodhi-ma.n.dapa.[S:??] As long as the text was extant the traditional interpretation thereof, in various degrees of authenticity, at different times, existed as well, handed down through the centuries by a line of teachers who aimed as far as possible at consistency in doctrinal interpretation.” In a footnote in BC Law’s book on Buddhaghosa it says that in Mr Ngai’s article in JPTS, Upatissa belonged to the first century AD and lived at the time as King Vasabha of Ceylon (AD 66-109). So it seems quite possible to me that he and then Buddhaghosa had access to the same sources of texts and (incomplete) commentaries in India and they were of course both versed in the Abhidhamma. Only after access to the entire set of commentaries in Sri Lanka was Buddhaghosa able to compile the detail and write the Visuddhimagga and other commentaries (and reject some of Upatissa’s conclusions in the Vimuttimagga as the reference you give suggests). If this is correct speculation, then it might be a good example of how even in the first century, reference needed to be made to the full set of ancient commentaries to avoid errors of interpretation of the suttas and Abhidhamma. Look forward to any other comments you may have or details to help on any of the threads here. Metta, Sarah ===== Robert E:> There's no doubt that Buddhaghosa was acquainted with the Vimuttimagga. > However, on the very few occasions he alludes to it, it is only in order > to > cite and then reject one or another of Upatissa's views. If you have > Nyanamoli's translation of the Visuddhimagga you will find one example > in > the discussion of the cause of the first three of the six character > types. > See Path of Purification ch. III 80-82 and Nyanamoli's endnote III 19. > The > latter cites the Paramatthamanjusa (Dhammapala's commentary to the > Visuddhimagga), in which the identification of Upatissa and the > Vimuttimagga is made explicit. 25241 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Ken H - ;-)) Okay, so "Ken H" it will stay .. or "Ken" or "Howard" so long as the context makes it clear. And I will remain as "Howard" or "Upasaka" or "Upasaka Howard" or, for that matter, "HCW" will be fine! So many names!! So much verbal intimation!! ;-)) With metta, Uh .. not sure In a message dated 9/11/03 11:26:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Sarah (and Ken .. ,er Howard, uh ...) - > > > > > > there might be confusion, such as on a thread > >that both Ken H and I are both participating. If anyone > >wishes, instead of calling me "Howard" in such a > >context, you can use my intials "HCW" instead. (Ken, > >should we call you "Howard" on DSG?) > > Thanks Howard but that won't be necessary. > > Even though my given names are Kenneth Howard (in that > order), I have always been known as Howard. After 53 > years of confusing situations, please don't worry, I'm > used to it. > > You joined dsg ahead of me and so calling myself Ken > seemed the natural thing to do. Then Kenneth Ong joined, > and I became Ken H. But since then, Ken O has selflessly > changed his monogram to KC. He did this to let me drop > the H and go back to just plain Ken. But I think > everyone prefers to call Ken O by his real name. > Besides, it suits me to keep the H -- people who know me > as Howard are reminded by it. > > Is everything as clear as mud? :-) > > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25242 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Sarah and Susan, ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah To: Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > > I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum > > Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them > > mean, > Sorry, I've no idea. Mike might be able to help... Years ago I was told that "Om Mani Padme Hum" meant "the jewel in the lotus"--not sure about the 'Hrih'. It's Tibetan, I think. I know next to nothing about this, sorry! > I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a > > beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite > > this > > as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra > > a > > meaning will come to you. Is this right? Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! mike 25243 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/12/03 3:51:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > What I find surprising is that anything really exists at > all! I think the ultimate existence of 'anything at all' > is what people in the Buddha's time needed convincing of. > He explained that the five khandhas ultimately exist. > > =========================== I disagree, KH. I think that people at the Buddha's time, due to the influence of the atma doctrine of Hinduism, believed in substantial existence, and, for that matter, most people at all times are more inclined to substantialist views than to nihilism. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25244 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:15am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 11 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 11. 4. In the third dyad, when a man wants to begin insight, his understanding of the defining of the four immaterial aggregates is understanding as "defining of mentality", [439] and his understanding of the defining of the material aggregate is understanding as "defining of materiality". So it is of two kinds as the defining of mentality and of materiality. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 11. tatiyaduke yaa vipassana.m aarabhitukaamassa catunna.m aruupakkhandhaana.m vavatthaapane pa~n~naa, aya.m naamavavatthaapanapa~n~naa. yaa ruupakkhandhassa vavatthaapane pa~n~naa, aya.m ruupavavatthaapanapa~n~naati eva.m naamaruupavavatthaapanavasena duvidhaa. 25245 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:17am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 12 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 12. 5. In the fourth dyad, understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to sixteen (5) of the kinds of path consciousness with four of the jhanas in the fivefold method, is "accompanied by joy". Understanding belonging to two of the kinds of sense-sphere profitable consciousness, and belonging to (the remaining) four kinds of path consciousness with the fifth jhana is "accompanied by equanimity". So it is of two kinds as accompanied by joy or by equanimity. (5.) 'I.e. the four paths with the first jhana and those with the second, third, and fourth, out of the five' (Pm. 434). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 12. catutthaduke dviisu kaamaavacarakusalacittesu so.lasasu ca pa~ncakanayena catukkajjhaanikesu maggacittesu pa~n~naa somanassasahagataa. dviisu kaamaavacarakusalacittesu catuusu ca pa~ncamajjhaanikesu maggacittesu pa~n~naa upekkhaasahagataati eva.m somanassupekkhaasahagatavasena duvidhaa. 25246 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:19am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 13 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 13. 6. In the fifth dyad, understanding belonging to the first path is the "plane of seeing". Understanding belonging to the remaining three paths is the "plane of development" (see Ch. XXII, 127). So it is of two kinds as the planes of seeing and of development. ---------------- Vism. XXII, 127. (ii) The seeing of nibbana at the moment of the first path is "realizing as seeing". At the other path moments it is "realizing as developing". And it is intended as twofold here. So realizing of nibbana as seeing and as developing should be understood as a function of this knowledge. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 13. pa~ncamaduke pa.thamamaggapa~n~naa dassanabhuumi. avasesamaggattayapa~n~naa bhaavanaabhuumiiti eva.m dassanabhaavanaabhuumivasena duvidhaa. 25247 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:20am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 14 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga)ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 14. 7. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in development". And this is said: 'Herein, what is understanding consisting in what is reasoned? In the spheres of work invented by ingenuity, or in the spheres of craft invented by ingenuity, or in the sorts of science invented by ingenuity, any preference, view, choice, opinion, judgement, liking for pondering over things, that concerns ownership of deeds (kamma) or is in conformity with truth or is of such kind as to conform with (the axioms) "Materiality is impermanent" or "Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is impermanent" that one acquires without hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is reasoned. ' (In the spheres ... ) that one acquires by hearing it from another--that is called understanding consisting in what is learnt (heard). 'And all understanding in anyone who has attained (an attainment) is understanding consisting in development' (Vbh. 324-25). So it is of three kinds as consisting in what is thought out, in what is heard, and in development. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 14. tikesu pa.thamattike parato assutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa attano cintaavasena nipphannattaa cintaamayaa. parato sutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa sutavasena nipphannattaa sutamayaa. yathaa tathaa vaa bhaavanaavasena nipphannaa appanaappattaa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa. vutta~nheta.m -- "tattha katamaa cintaamayaa pa~n~naa? "yogavihitesu vaa kammaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa sippaayatanesu yogavihitesu vaa vijjaa.t.thaanesu kammassakata.m vaa saccaanulomika.m vaa ruupa.m aniccanti vaa vedanaa...pe0... sa~n~naa. sa"nkhaaraa. vi~n~naa.na.m aniccanti vaa, ya.m evaruupi.m anulomika.m khanti.m di.t.thi.m ruci.m muti.m pekkha.m dhammanijjhaanakhanti.m parato assutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati cintaamayaa pa~n~naa...pe0... sutvaa pa.tilabhati, aya.m vuccati sutamayaa pa~n~naa. "sabbaapi samaapannassa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa pa~n~naa''ti" (vibha0 768). eva.m cintaasutabhaavanaamayavasena tividhaa. 25248 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:22am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 15 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) ch. XIV 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [katividhaa pa~n~naati dhammasabhaavapa.] 15. dutiyattike kaamaavacaradhamme aarabbha pavattaa pa~n~naa parittaaramma.naa. ruupaavacaraaruupaavacare aarabbha pavattaa mahaggataaramma.naa. saa lokiyavipassanaa. nibbaana.m aarabbha pavattaa appamaa.naaramma.naa. saa lokuttaravipassanaati eva.m parittamahaggataappamaa.naaramma.navasena tividhaa. 25249 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] accumulations. Kom Thanks for this, very helpful. For some reason that I can't quite see at the moment, the aasaya are not regarded as 'norn nueng', even though they also lie (and are latent for the most part). Perhaps I can follow up with K Suphee some time. BTW, there are lots of useful word explanations on the 'Parliament' CD set. Worth a listen if you get the chance. Jon --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > According to the dictionary, neung means: > - in continuation > - related > - things that are related / closed to one another > > Non neung, by the words only, mean lying latent, sleeping still, > but in > continuation.... > > kom 25250 From: susan macqueen Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi Mike, Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! ----------- Thanks for answering my email Mike. Since I last posted I have since read that Mantra meditation even 'coca-cola' lol is just a way of focusing on the word to keep the thoughts away, however I agree with what you said and I too doubt it is right concentration therefore I have since found Samatha meditation and I am going to practise that. I'll get there......... Thanks Mike susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "m. nease" To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > Hi Sarah and Susan, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sarah > To: > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:56 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > > > > > I was wondering if you could tell me the meaning of Om Mani Padme Hum > > > Hrih........I have seen other Mantra's but I don't know what any of them > > > mean, > > Sorry, I've no idea. Mike might be able to help... > > Years ago I was told that "Om Mani Padme Hum" meant "the jewel in the > lotus"--not sure about the 'Hrih'. It's Tibetan, I think. I know next to > nothing about this, sorry! > > > I also don't know if meditating on a Mantra is a good way for a > > > beginner! I did read somewhere that the idea of a Mantra was to recite > > > this > > > as and when, or whatever your doing and the longer you recite the Mantra > > > a > > > meaning will come to you. Is this right? > > Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! > > mike 25251 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Hi, Susan, Mike, and Sarah - A number of years ago I talked for an hour or so with Piyatissa Mahathera at the NY Buddhist Vihara. We got to discussing jhanas - he believed that I had made some progress in that direction at the time. It was Bhante P's opinion that one could even use a mantra like 1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1 etc, and that would work just fine! He wasn't all that concerned with the object of concentration. I had been using a TM mantra at the time rather successfully. Subsequently, I've been told that it sounds like I had been shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas. Whatever the case, it's not clear that there were any long-term benefits that accrued to me from that, except for the confidence created that "there are more things in heaven and earth ... ." Perhaps had I pursued the jhanas further, greater benefits might have resulted. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/12/03 10:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sues.greenbank@v... writes: > Hi Mike, > > Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > >that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > >reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > >likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > >right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! > ----------- > > Thanks for answering my email Mike. Since I last posted I have since read > that Mantra meditation even 'coca-cola' lol is just a way of focusing on the > word to keep the thoughts away, however I agree with what you said and I too > doubt it is right concentration therefore I have since found Samatha > meditation and I am going to practise that. > > I'll get there......... > > Thanks Mike > susan > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25252 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Ken H In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:51:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > TG: >My view, which I believe is the way the suttas > >represent it, is that states are continually altering > >in form, some slowly, some fast depending on > >conditions. > -------------- > > Ken H: How can a state that is altered, possibly be the same > state? Surely, a new, slightly different state has > arisen. > Exactly my point! The state has slightly altered. Its not the same states as before, nor is it a totally different state altogether. There is a continuity of causality and impermanence. It should not be said that "states arise and immediately cease." It should be said that states are "continually altering." Since all things are not self, how could a state have any "identity" as a "self remaining thing?" If there were permanence, it would be possible, since there is no permanence, it is impossible. TG 25253 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, TG (and Ken H) - In a message dated 9/12/03 1:34:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Ken H > > In a message dated 9/12/2003 12:51:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@y... writes: > > >TG: >My view, which I believe is the way the suttas > >>represent it, is that states are continually altering > >>in form, some slowly, some fast depending on > >>conditions. > >-------------- > > > >Ken H: How can a state that is altered, possibly be the same > >state? Surely, a new, slightly different state has > >arisen. > > > > Exactly my point! The state has slightly altered. Its not the same states > as before, nor is it a totally different state altogether. There is a > continuity of causality and impermanence. It should not be said that > "states arise > and immediately cease." It should be said that states are "continually > altering." > > Since all things are not self, how could a state have any "identity" as a > "self remaining thing?" If there were permanence, it would be possible, > since > there is no permanence, it is impossible. > > TG > ============================ As I see it, there is already a problem as soon one countenances separate things. A "separate thing", whether it exists for a moment or a span of time or forever, has core/self. Once one accepts such true existents, then one becomes an adherent of either eternalism or annihilationism (or both). Dhammas/phenomena do occur, but they must not, I believe, be thought of as existents. I think that ultimately, their emptiness, their utter dependence on other similarly empty conditions, puts them beyond conventional means of expression or understanding. We may use terminology such as "process-moments" or "elementary experience-events" or "states" or some other circumlocutory 'pointings toward', but all dhamma descriptions, in Abhidhamma and elsewhere, are conventional and are ultimately inadequate, and the only fully correct thinking and talking about dhammas is, as I see it, mental and verbal silence. Still ... until we see face to face, we must think and we must speak. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25254 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:concept as condition Dear Sarah, Upanissaya paccaya(decisive support condition) is rather tricky. I had to check again myself. Concepts are object-condition, but as far as I understand it, they are not mentioned under the objects which can be object-predominance and object decisive support condiitons. I looked at the charts of Ven. Narada, p. 128. But as to natural strong dependence, food, climate, I think there are concepts. Generally, the Patthana deals only with paramattha dhammas. But the chart on p. 137 mentions the concepts which are the objects of jhana as object-condition. So, the last one is not easy: friends, climate, etc. are they the paramatthas which they represent or also the concepts of a whole? I would like to check this again, and correct if necessary. In the chart I do not see concepts under natural strong dependence. I looked at Ledi Sayadaw, under relations, he translates as sufficing condition, and deals with natural sufficing condition, naming a large variety of concepts. I shall check again with A. Sujin's tape series on paccayas. Yes, I have it. Concepts are pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural strong dependence condition) for kusala or akusala. A human being, for instance can be object of metta or respect. Nina. op 11-09-2003 10:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > If we look at the 24 paccaya, concepts are also included in arammana > paccaya(object condition) and upanissaya paccaya(decisive support > condition). 25255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa Dear Nori, you touched on a very complex subject. I looked at the sutta and Co, but I have to continue studying it. Instead of name and form it is better to transl as: nama and rupa. As you say, nama includes citta and cetasikas. When we read contact conditions feeling, we have to think of contact and feeling accompanying one citta now. It is not: contact with a former citta conditions feeling at a later moment. Contact accompanies each citta, and we find it very important what kind of object is contacted: pleasant or unpleasant. When we feel pain we dwell on it, but immediately there is another contact and feeling, when we hear a sound. But we do not notice this. We should also study in what way nama and rupa are conditions for contact. The subco names them. There are five sense bases which are rupa, and the sixth is mental: mind-base, including all cittas. Rupas such as visible object and nama such as seeing are also conditions for contact: "In dependence upon the eye and visible object aruses eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact". We read this in the sutta. condition comes nama-and-rupa.> If there were no citta could there be cetasikas and rupa which is sense-base? We do not speak now of the planes where there is only nama, not rupa. I read in the Co: . I cannot go into all the details of this book. Citta is a condiiton for nama and rupa in many ways, it is said. We have to study whether the citta is vipakacitta and conditions its accompanying cetasikas by vipaka-condition: they are together vipaka. If we realize that conditions are manifold, we shall not be surprised about the fact that nama and rupa condition citta, and citta conditions nama and rupa. Nina. op 11-09-2003 14:06 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > Digha Nikaya 15 > Maha-nidana Sutta > The Great Causes Discourse > > (Dependent Co-arising) > > "..."Thus, Ananda, from name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?) as a requisite > condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite > condition comes name(nama?)-and-form(rupa?). From name-and-form as a > requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite > condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes > craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From > clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a > requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, > aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come > into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress. " > > > ---------------- > > .. or am I completely wrong in interpreting "name-and-form" as nama > and rupa as we are using in this discussion ? > > Nama is defined as: > > 1) vedana - feeling > 2) sanna - sense perception/accumilation > 3) sankhara - thought formation > 4) vinnana - conciousness > > (...if nama is already defined as part feeling and conciousness how > could it be a requisite to itself in this sutta? ... I'm prrobably > just interpreting name-and-form on this sutta wrong(?)) 25256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Larry op 12-09-2003 01:36 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Insight knowledge is reason. Interesting. I'm going to have to meditate on this. Do we know > any more about this word cinta (reason) or how reason works? N: I would like to be careful, a certain term such as cinta can have differnet meanings and implicate different aspects in different contexts. As to insight: before it can arise there is pondering over, but it is citta accompanied by panna. The first three stages of insight, tender insight, are also called: cinta-maya-~naa.na: panna consisting of reasoning. In between direct understanding there are also moments of thinking of realities, but even this thinking is realized as nama. I would not put it like you suggest: . This would suggest: just thinking about impermanence is already insight. Cinta implies more than just reasoning. As in the Vis, panna classified as threefold, a certain aspect was referred to: without having heard from another. We ordinary people have to listen to the dhamma first before we can develop insight. We have to lisne again and again, before it eventually sinks in. Nama and rupa are not just words , they are realities, each with their own characteristic. We think we have understood, but we haven't! It will take a long time before there can be panna which penetrates the sabhava dhammas, the realities with their own distinct nature. We often have to return to the beginning of the text, just as Vis, 7, the Tiika: <³Dhamma with its own nature² is, the own nature of dhammas, and the true nature. Here, with regard to the first phrase, the coarse characteristic such as touch etc. is taken, and with regard to the second phrase, the general characteristic of impermanence, dukkha, etc. As to ³understanding² which has the characteristic of the precise understanding of both (kinds of characteristics), he said, ²understanding has the characteristic of the penetration of the individual nature of dhammas.² and no 8, beginning: Nina. 25257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:24pm Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 15 Visuddhimagga text: XIV, 15 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. Tiika: 15. saati ``parittaaramma.naa mahaggataaramma.naa''ti (vibha0 753) vuttapa~n~naa. As to the words, ³limited object, exalted object², this indeed is called understanding. lokiyavipassanaati lokiyavipassanaapa~n~naa. As to the words ³mundane insight², this is insight knowledge that is mundane. saa lokuttaravipassanaati yaa nibbaana.m aarabbha pavattaa appamaa.naaramma.naa pa~n~naa vuttaa, As to the words supramundane insight, that which occurs contingent upon nibbana is called understanding with a measureless object. saa lokuttaravipassanaati maggapa~n~na.m sandhaayaaha. He said that this is supramundane understanding with reference to understanding belonging to the Path. saa hi sa"nkhaaraana.m aniccataadi.m aga.nhantiipi vipassanaakiccapaaripuuriyaa, This understanding that does not have as object the impermanence etc. of conditioned dhammas, because the function of insight is completed, nibbaanassa vaa tathalakkha.na.m visesato passatiiti vipassanaati vuccati. realizes indeed distinctly the true characteristic of nibbana, and thus it is called insight. gotrabhu~naa.na.m pana ki~ncaapi appamaa.naaramma.na.m, maggassa pana aavajjana.t.thaaniyattaa na vipassanaavohaara.m labhati. Although the change-of-lineage knowledge has a measureless object, yet, because of its quality of adverting to the path, it does not obtain the designation of insight. **** English: As to the words, ³limited object, exalted object², this indeed is called understanding. As to the words ³mundane insight², this is insight knowledge that is mundane. As to the words supramundane insight, that which occurs contingent upon nibbana is called understanding with a measureless object. He said that this is supramundane understanding with reference to understanding belonging to the Path. This understanding that does not have as object the impermanence etc. of conditioned dhammas, because the function of insight is completed, realizes indeed distinctly the true characteristic of nibbana, and thus it is called insight. Although the change-of-lineage knowledge has a measureless object, yet, because of its quality of adverting to the path, it does not obtain the designation of insight. ******* Nina. 25258 From: susan macqueen Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan Howard I got muddled up with the names, thank you for responding lol.........my apologies. susan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Welcomes for Susan > Hi, Susan, Mike, and Sarah - > > A number of years ago I talked for an hour or so with Piyatissa > Mahathera at the NY Buddhist Vihara. We got to discussing jhanas - he believed that > I had made some progress in that direction at the time. It was Bhante P's > opinion that one could even use a mantra like 1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1 etc, and that would > work just fine! He wasn't all that concerned with the object of > concentration. I had been using a TM mantra at the time rather successfully. Subsequently, > I've been told that it sounds like I had been shuttling between the 2nd and > 5th jhanas. Whatever the case, it's not clear that there were any long-term > benefits that accrued to me from that, except for the confidence created that > "there are more things in heaven and earth ... ." Perhaps had I pursued the jhanas > further, greater benefits might have resulted. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 9/12/03 10:08:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sues.greenbank@v... writes: > > > Hi Mike, > > > > Off to another country, a Korean zen master (Seung Sahn, I think) once said > > >that the contents of recitation didn't matter--that if you believed that > > >reciting 'coca-cola' would concentrate your mind, that it would. The > > >likelihood of this being right concentration (not to mention > > >right-concentration-of-the-eightfold-path) is nil though, I think! > > ----------- > > > > Thanks for answering my email Mike. Since I last posted I have since read > > that Mantra meditation even 'coca-cola' lol is just a way of focusing on the > > word to keep the thoughts away, however I agree with what you said and I too > > doubt it is right concentration therefore I have since found Samatha > > meditation and I am going to practise that. > > > > I'll get there......... > > > > Thanks Mike > > susan > > > > 25259 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:30pm Subject: Boox Sarah/Jim Finally I got a reply from Bhante Mettavihari He said --> "I presume you are looking for some old books. They will all be in Sinhalese script. I found recently some old books in Maradana the small shops by the roundabout near (Gamini Hall) " So is Sinhalese Script OK? If its OK then I probably can persuade somebody to look ,.. Regards, 25260 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 13, seeing and developing. L: "Any ideas on in what sense seeing nibbana is seeing?" N: "seeing, daasana, means understanding. Panna which is lokuttara comprehends, realizes nibbana." Hi Nina, The reason I ask is because I was wondering what role sa~n~naa plays. Since sa~n~naa identifies by means of signs and nibbaana is signless and presumably pa~n~naa needs strong identity in order to understand the individual characteristic, how does pa~n~naa or sa~n~naa know the signless if signs are necessary for knowing? Larry 25261 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:15pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, > Hi Jim, > > I hadn't forgotten your earlier post, but have been considering some of > the issues. Sometimes I get distracted on other threads and sometimes I > just like to leave certain threads on the back-burner for a while..... That's okay with me as it's often the same here. I've also been trying to get back into lurk mode again so I can carry on quietly with my own studies without the interruptions of attending to unending email topics as interesting as they may be. It's easy enough to get drawn into a discussion but not so easy to get out of it. > ..... > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > > I have since found some more interesting details on this in the > > subcty. to Buddhappiya's Mahaaruupasiddhi (a Pali grammatical > > treatise). The threefold saasana is ultimately grounded on skilfulness > > in the 41 Pali letters (including grammar) for when this exist there > > is the understanding of pariyatti (the tipi.taka with the > > a.t.thakathaa-s). > .... > This touches an area that is very difficult for me to appreciate. Perhaps > it should also be read in the light of yoniso manasikaara (wise > attention)? We know there can be Pali and Abhidhamma scholars who still > miss the essence of the teachings and that wisdom cannot be equated with > degree of these kinds of knowledge. So even pariyatti is more than just > book knowledge. I think the point, however, is that as the scriptural > knowledge and availability declines, so does the threefold sasana. I'm, > just thinking about the vinaya rule about the importance of the correct > pronunciation of Pali in order for the ordinations to be valid and the > reasons for this rule. It is worth noting that "skilfulness in the (Pali) letters" is 'akkharakosalla' in Pali. The tika gives 'pa.n.dicca' as a synonym of 'kosalla' and both terms are given as synonyms of 'pa~n~naa' at Dhs §16, 20, 34, etc. So, in my view, the development of 'pa~n~naa' can begin with learning the Pali alphabet and continue to be developed right to the end with the realization of Nibbana. Of course, the degree and scope of 'pa~n~naa' increases as one makes progress along the way. > I've also been reflecting on the third Patisambhida (discrimination)- > niruttipa.tisambhidaa (discrimination of language) since Larry (?) raised > it. > > Sv15,387 (Pali), 1946 (Eng) 'Sv' is the usual abbr. for Samangalavilaasinii. For 'Sammohavinodanii' use Vibh-a. > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its object, > not a concept as its object." This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? I can see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. > We read that all Buddhas use the same language, the only one which doesn't > change: > > "Also the Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the Tipitaka, > did so only in the Magadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is easy to > deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the buddha word announced in > the text in the magadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the ears > of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is > merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand > ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by repeated > application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an ordinary > man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who has > not reached the Discriminations" [see also VismX1V,25] > > The last line puzzles me. As Nina always reminds us, only some arahants > had these discriminations. Not now. There are degrees and the chief > disciples had them to a greater degree than other disciples which is why > Sariputta could listen to the Abhidhamma in brief and immediately > comprehend it in detail. > > Sv 387(Pali- last para),1949 (English) is difficult and has been raised > before- the children speaking the Magadha language. Are these Bodhisattas? > Nina, Mike, Jim - any comments? I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is speaking to them. Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had to say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention of concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't the latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? > ..... > >This is great as it really underscores the > > worthwhileness of studying and gaining expertise in Pali. Pa.tipatti > > (practice) is the threefold training and pa.tivedha (penetration) is > > the attainment of the nine lokuttara dhammas. Pa.tivedha seems to be > > interchangeable with adhigama. > .... > Yes, but I think we have to be careful about how we use the word > 'studying'. I'm not sure that it is just 'skill' and 'study' as we use > these conventionally that is referred to. I think we always have to read > these phrases in the light of the entire teaching on satipatthana. What do > you think, Jim? Conventionally speaking, I think of 'studying' as the development of wisdom in the same way as I think of 'meditating' as the development of concentration or tranquility. > I'd be glad to hear any further reflections you have, Jim and I think it > works well to just pick and choose parts for response (if any!)without any > obligations. I think we're also both trying to avoid pulling out too many > texts;-) I agree. I just deleted a big chunk of your message which I was in no mood to respond to. I generally like to keep messages short and to the point. I notice that in my correspondence with you the messages tend to get overly long and many new topics to discuss are introduced. The discussion could just go and on with no end in sight. > p.s I have BB's transl of M1(Mulapariyaya) w/comy, but still not sure > which part you were referring to. I'm sure I'm being dense. > ====== You should find it at the end of the commentary on "was staying near Ukka.t.thaa in the Subhaga Grove close to the great sal-tree" (Horner transl). Best wishes, Jim 25262 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Nina, The reason for my bewilderment is that I don't see how direct understanding fits into the three kinds of understanding: reason, hearing, development. Are the higher levels of insight considered to be attainments and therefore classified under "development" or are they all reasoning based on hearing and observation? Larry 25263 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. XIV, 15 Tiika: "Although the change-of-lineage knowledge has a measureless object, yet, because of its quality of adverting to the path, it does not obtain the designation of insight." Hi Nina, What does "adverting to the path" mean? Is it self consciousness? Larry 25264 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. XIV, 15 Hi again Nina, I forgot to thank you for the tiika. Also, I was wondering why this understanding is based on object rather than cetasika? The difference between limited and exalted is the cetasikas in the form of jhana factors; the jhana becoming more exalted with less cetasikas. Could nibbaana be simply an absence of cetasikas or at least sa~n~naa? Larry ------------------ Visuddhimagga text: XIV, 15 15. 8. In the second triad, the understanding that occurs contingent upon sense-sphere states has a "limited" object. That which occurs contingent upon fine-material-sphere states or immaterial-sphere states has an "exalted" object. That is mundane insight. That which occurs contingent upon nibbana has a "measureless" object. That is supramundane insight. So it is of three kinds as having a limited, an exalted, or a measureless object. 25265 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim and Sarah, Please don't bother to respond--just wanted to say that this post is the oddest curiosity I've ever encountered on dsg (or maybe elsewhere). No idea if it might lead to anyplace useful... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Anderson To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] > > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its > object, > > not a concept as its object." > > This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the > 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to > concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? I can > see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any > meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like > to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being > uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or > stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but > the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. > > > We read that all Buddhas use the same language, the only one which > doesn't > > change: > > > > "Also the Enlightened One, in announcing the Buddha word of the > Tipitaka, > > did so only in the Magadha tongue. Why? Because in this way it is > easy to > > deduce the meaning; since the only delay for the buddha word > announced in > > the text in the magadha tongue is that occurring when coming to the > ears > > of those who have attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is > > merely impinged upon, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a > thousand > > ways. But a text announced in another tongue has to be learnt by > repeated > > application. But there is no reaching the discrimination for an > ordinary > > man, even if he has learnt much; and there is no noble disciple who > has > > not reached the Discriminations" [see also VismX1V,25] > > > > The last line puzzles me. As Nina always reminds us, only some > arahants > > had these discriminations. Not now. There are degrees and the chief > > disciples had them to a greater degree than other disciples which is > why > > Sariputta could listen to the Abhidhamma in brief and immediately > > comprehend it in detail. > > > > Sv 387(Pali- last para),1949 (English) is difficult and has been > raised > > before- the children speaking the Magadha language. Are these > Bodhisattas? > > Nina, Mike, Jim - any comments? > > I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in > the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities > according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can > understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is > speaking to them. 25266 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boox Hi Gayan, Thank-you for writing to Ven. Mettavihari about old Pali books in Sri Lanka. Although I can't yet read the Sinhalese script it shouldn't be too much of a problem to learn as I'm able to read Pali in the Devanagari and Burmese scripts. I'm interested in new or used books written in Pali about the Pali language by old grammarians belonging to the school of Kaccayana, Moggallana. and Aggavamsa. And as long as it is about the Pali language whether it's a grammar, a dictionary, or a work on prosody or rhetorics and it's in Pali it should be okay and it doesn't matter if the introduction is in the Sinhalese language. Please ontact me offlist about transaction matters. With appreciation, Jim > Sarah/Jim > > Finally I got a reply from Bhante Mettavihari > > He said --> "I presume you are looking for some old books. > They will all be in Sinhalese script. > I found recently some old books in Maradana > the small shops by the roundabout near (Gamini Hall) " > > So is Sinhalese Script OK? > > If its OK then I probably can persuade somebody to look ,.. > > Regards, > 25267 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Howard, ------------- > I disagree, KH. I think that people at the > Buddha's time, due to the influence of the atma > doctrine of Hinduism, believed in substantial > existence, and, for that matter, most people at all > times are more inclined to substantialist views than to > nihilism. ------------- True, but I think we're both right; In the Mahacattarika Sutta (Majjhimanikaya), we read: "And what is wrong understanding? To hold the view that there is no result from generosity, no fruit or ripening of deeds well done or ill done, that this world does not really exist, that no other world really exists, that there is no benefit from mother and father, . . ." It goes on to explain that the opposite of this wrong (nothingness) understanding, is preferable but still not the Middle Way. My guess is that in the Buddha's day, just as today, people were of three kinds: eternity believers, annihilation (nothing) believers and people who think it's all a lot of hooey and don't have an opinion either way. Leaving the third group aside; educated, inquiring people know that what seems to be a solid, unchanging object, is actually countless subatomic particles, each of which appears and disappears with incredibly high frequency. The ephemerality of the world, as seen by these people, causes their division into two camps; those who believe that ultimately nothing exists; and those who believe that ultimately, a soul (atman), exists. I'm not sure how far to go with this theory but I think the people in the non-existence camp were not immediately motivated to hear the Dhamma. They were just getting on with their lives thinking there is no fruit of deeds well done or ill done and no worlds to aspire to or avoid. The people in the existence camp devote their lives to finding the atman. So, most likely, it was these 'atman seekers' that the Buddha encountered when he first began to teach. (One of the first discourses, the Fire Sermon, was delivered to a group of former fire-worshippers. My guess is that fire worshippers were people who had decided that, in their ephemeral world, the only thing that could be scientifically proven to exist was heat (energy). And therefore, energy, in the form of fire, must be the unchanging entity -- atman.) Of course, the answer provided by the Buddha was that neither camp was right; things, subatomic particles and the energy behind them neither exist nor don't-exist; in ultimate reality, empty nama and rupa rise and fall away in accordance with conditions. Whaddya think? Ken H 25268 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, KH - In a message dated 9/12/03 8:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------- > > I disagree, KH. I think that people at the > >Buddha's time, due to the influence of the atma > >doctrine of Hinduism, believed in substantial > >existence, and, for that matter, most people at all > >times are more inclined to substantialist views than to > >nihilism. > ------------- > > True, but I think we're both right; > > In the Mahacattarika Sutta (Majjhimanikaya), we read: > "And what is wrong understanding? To hold the view that > there is no result from generosity, no fruit or ripening > of deeds well done or ill done, that this world does not > really exist, that no other world really exists, that > there is no benefit from mother and father, . . ." > > It goes on to explain that the opposite of this wrong > (nothingness) understanding, is preferable but still not > the Middle Way. > > My guess is that in the Buddha's day, just as today, > people were of three kinds: eternity believers, > annihilation (nothing) believers and people who think > it's all a lot of hooey and don't have an opinion either > way. > > > Of course, the answer provided by the Buddha was that > neither camp was right; things, subatomic particles and > the energy behind them neither exist nor don't-exist; in > ultimate reality, empty nama and rupa rise and fall away > in accordance with conditions. > > Whaddya think? > Ken H > > ========================== I agree that the middle way is neither eternalism/substantialism nor anihillationism/nihilism - that things neither exist substantially and independently nor do they entirely fail to exist. I also agree that both extremes are the common errors of sentient beings, but it is eternalism/substantialism that is the more common of the two. Actually, and doesn't this make us humans weird(!), both extremes can and often do co-exist in the same person! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25269 From: jaranoh Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:34pm Subject: Re: *Jaran* -waiting for feedback;-)(was: meanings of dhamma, no 11.) Dear Sarah: I checked the message you referred to and did not find anything intelligent to add. However as it also discussed about cintaa ~naana, I will contribute to that by continuing the 'week 5 series' which talks about cintaa ~naana. Please see next post. Best Regards, jaran --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Jaran & Nina (& Rob Ep), > > --- jaranoh wrote: > Dear Sarah: > > Sorry for lerking. Will try to keep up with dsg more. > ..... > That would be good;-)No need to apologise, but to be honest, I'm not sure > if you stay around long enough to read slow replies to your occasional > posts....;-( For example, you sent a bulletin of a discussion at the > foundation w/ K.Sujin and asked a qu about `sammasana-~nana (3rd stage of > insight)'. > com.hk 25270 From: jaranoh Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 5 Dear All: My last post (Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) No 3) was posted on July 22, 2003. Please refer to it if you are lost. Thanks.--Jaran Q: Is it possible that sati can have only nama, and not ruupa, as its object? A: No, it's not possible. How can it be only nama ..? Q: It [nama] is known as an element of knowing, cognizing.. A: As the dhamma through the eye door is one, ear another, and other door-way are of their on unique characteristics, it is not possible that panna is limited to one single dhamma. As we take everything (not just one) as our 'self', to discern them must be all and not just a single one dhamma. Q: What about seeing when we see a flower, and sati arises to be aware of ruupa-ramana as the visible object... A: Satipatthana is not to 'know' the story, the theory of dhamma that we have studied, but it is aware of the characteristic of ruupa-rammana that is not characteristic of other dhamma. [although there are a lot of realities coarising, the only thing appearing to sati is the ruupa-aramana in this case]. Q: When a visible object is seen, there is also seeing which is a nama... A: The awareness and understanding of the characteristics of dhamma only grow slowly, and it does not necessary refer to the moment of awareness. [In the beginning, the most of the understanding is in the level of thinking, reasoning remembering. Between this, when there are right conditions, satipatthana arises, and after that it's back to the thinking and reasoning again. This is how the understanding develops--back and forth between different level of understanding, and they enhance each other.] Q: Suppose sati is aware of visible object... A: We don't have to discuss vipassana ~nana in oder to understand this. Q: ..but I would like to break in down to step-by-step. When we see visible object, then we could be thinking about many things. At this moment, sati may arise and be aware of the thinking... A: This is cinta~nana. After the arising of namaruupparicheta~nana, which comes after the ~natapari~n~naa (considering, reflecting), there is always thinking. And thinking is also the object of subsequent sati and pa~n~na. And this thinking is what we are so attached to and take it as us, our self. Without pa~n~na to understand that there are thoughts (and the characteristics of thinking) after the ~nata parin~na, the idea of self cannot be (very infinitesimally) discerned. 25271 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:38pm Subject: Luminous mind Dear all At the Cooran weekend, we briefly discussed the idea of the mind being luminous (I think it was in relation to Reg's article?). In the Brahmanimantanika Sutta, the following verse appears: "Consciousness non-manifesting, Boundless, luminous all-round". Bhikkhu Bodhi notes (513): "... if we take pabham as 'luminous', which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idam cittam, AN i.10) and also suggests the light of wisdom (pannapabha), called the best of lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not Nibbana itself, but the arahant's consciousness during the meditative experience of Nibbana ... this meditative experience does not manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be truly described as 'non-manifesting'." Metta Andrew 25272 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard TG Hi TG, -------------- > It should not be said that "states arise and > immediately cease." It should be said that states are > "continually altering." ------------- In the Loka Sutta, the Buddha describes the all -- the world. As I remember, he says it is eye base and eye object (rupa khandha), eye mind (vinnana khandha plus sankhara khandha), eye contact (sanna-khandha) and the feeling dependent on eye contact (vedana-khandha). That is literally all. There is no hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking; there is just those five eye-khandhas. Then he says the all is ear base and ear object and so on. At that time just those five ear-khandhas exist; no eye-khandhas, nothing else. At the present moment there is only one world and it can be any one of the six kinds. Does the Buddha say that anything is carried over from the previous world to this one? Ken H 25273 From: Date: Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/12/2003 9:15:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > In the Loka Sutta, the Buddha describes the all -- the > world. As I remember, he says it is eye base and eye > object (rupa khandha), eye mind (vinnana khandha plus > sankhara khandha), eye contact (sanna-khandha) and the > feeling dependent on eye contact (vedana-khandha). That > is literally all. There is no hearing, smelling, > tasting, touching, thinking; there is just those five > eye-khandhas. > > Then he says the all is ear base and ear object and so > on. At that time just those five ear-khandhas exist; no > eye-khandhas, nothing else. > > At the present moment there is only one world and it can > be any one of the six kinds. Does the Buddha say that > anything is carried over from the previous world to this > one? > > Ken H > Hi Ken H I think you had better find the sutta and copy it down. There are several suttas where the Buddha deals with "The All" and I've never heard one deal with it in the way you've stated here. Especially as detailed in your last two paragraphs. Apparantly you are saying that when hearing a sound, the eye doesn't exist? I think you'd have to search pretty hard to find the Buddha saying that, and then I think you would still not find it. ;) Here's what the Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma commentary, says about causal happenings... 'A mere state that has got its conditions Ushers in the subsequent existence It has not transmigrated from the past Nor does it come about, not caused thereby' (Dispeller of Delusion, (Sammohavinodani), Ch. 6, 741) 'So it is this mere material and immaterial state [matter and mind], which arises when it has obtained its conditions, that ushers in (lit. "comes into") the subsequent existence, is what is said [above]; it is not a lasting being, not a soul, and it has neither transmigrated here from a past existence, nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that [past conditions].' (Dispeller of Delusion, Ch. 6, 742) Past interactions conditioned the present, the present interactions condition the future. There is nothing that travels through time unchanged, nor is there anything that arises that was not caused by past conditions/interactions. TG 25274 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:13am Subject: questions on not-self Dear Group, I have been reading again 'The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic' Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-059.html Is it fair to say that Self is a relationship to any particular data coming through the sense doors that regards it as 'this is part of me', 'this is what I am'; and that anatta (not-self) is a relationship that does not try to hang on, hold to, or control any experience i.e. one says 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am'? The quote in the sutta seems very specific, seemingly related to a single present moment. 'THIS is not mine THIS is not my self THIS is not what I am'. Things happen so quickly, so continuously, that one is grabbed by a thought, sight, sound or a feeling before even knowing it has happened. Once having clung to an experience or incoming sense data, how does one let go? What is 'letting go'? Can one 'let go'? What is 'enchantment/disenchantment'? Are they different to 'clinging' 'not clinging' 'craving' 'not craving'? And what is the difference between disenchantment and dispassion? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 25275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: Proximate cause of understanding Jim Nina's 'Cetasikas' (Ch. 34) quotes the following passage from the Atthasaalini I, Book I, Part IV, chapter I, 123 which I presume is from the PTS translation: "Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were a good guide in the forest." Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, ... > Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had > to > say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention > of > concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it > mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes > concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't > the > latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? 25276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Sexual Ethic of the Middle Way (part 1) Chris and Azita Many thanks for being the channel for us to hear from Paul/Chittapala. I know he considers the teachings very sincerely. Please give him my regards and best wishes if you are in touch. I'm looking forward to reading the article. Jon --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > Azita has had some difficulty posting this first part of the > article > by her friend Chittapala - and has asked me to forward it. Any > comments would be most welcome: > > "THE SEXUAL ETHIC OF THE MIDDLE WAY > > by Chittapala > 25277 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi TG, ----------- > I think you had better find the sutta and copy it down. > There are several suttas where the Buddha deals with > "The All" and I've never heard one deal with it in the > way you've stated here. Especially as detailed in your > last two paragraphs. > > Apparantly you are saying that when hearing a sound, > the eye doesn't exist? --------------- Thanks for your advice, I do need to improve my study skills. The notion of just one conscious moment at a time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though. I'm surprised you were surprised. ---------------- > I think you'd have to search pretty hard to find the > Buddha saying that, and then I think you would still > not find it. ;) ----------------- He didn't say it the way you have -- "the eye doesn't exist" -- but certainly, when there is hearing, there is only hearing. I find him saying that in everything I read. If you have devised a method of screening out parts of the Tipitaka and commentaries that you don't like, then it's hard to have a constructive discussion. ------------------ > Here's what the Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma > commentary, says about causal happenings... ----------------- Thanks, I agree entirely with what you quoted. But what I'm trying to say is, if you refuse to accept the Abhidamma, it is meaningless to select parts of it and quote them in order to refute the whole of it. As a struggling beginner, there's no way I can understand suttas without the help of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. And I certainly can't do battle with you if I have to keep one hand tied behind my back :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25278 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:15am Subject: Re: Re Chittapala and simply living. Hello Azita, Azita said: "on the trip from Brisbane to Cooran, I made a flippant statement about dogs having more Moha than humans and was almost set upon by the other two in the car [not mentioning names], to explain myself. How did I know this bit of info. and could I prove it?!?" CJF: As one of the unfairly maligned unnamed occupants of the car [I was the one driving and quivering in terror of a whack on the ear if I looked like dozing off :-)], may I protest that you did not (at first) use the term 'moha', which caused a little confusion. Avijja (moha)is that which makes me believe life is ultimately satisfying, wonderful, and lasting. I'm not so sure Rusty or Smokey- Joe give it a thought. They just 'are' and don't philosophise about it. May I offer an article by Francis Storey 'The Place of Animals in Buddhism' http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/fstory4.htm "Buddhism shows that both animals and human beings are the products of Ignorance conjoined with Craving, and that the differences between them are the consequences of past Kamma. In this sense, though not in any other, 'all life is one'. It is one in its origin, Ignorance- craving, and in its subjection to the universal law of causality." ----------------------------------------------------- Azita: Well, I had to quickly backtrack bec I couldn't explain 'how I knew'' but somehow it feels like a correct statement. Dogs seem to sleep a lot and they do seem a bit dopey. CJF: I'm sure we all know a few homo-sapiens with those qualities. Rusty does not wish to offend, but he wishes to remind members of the entries in Nyanatiloka's dictionary under the heading of 'mana' - particularly 'atimana'. It should be pointed out that many animals are capable of performing kusala kamma - tales abound of self- sacrificing acts. And Francis Storey quotes some of the Jataka Tales that also mention this as well. -------------------------------------------------- Azita: I'll probably have the wrath of dog lovers down on me, but aren't animals born so bec they have been stupid??? CJF: Depends on your definition of 'stupid' and on whether you think 'we' are in fixed forms. Dogs have all the necessary intelligence to manage in their body-form. My understanding is that a process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena can re-become in animal form due to past kamma. My understanding is that this has happened to us all many times, and that animal rebirth is the result of Wrong View. If animal rebirth was the direct consequence of stupidity, surely there would be deserted cities and quite a crowd of us in the oceans, mountains and jungles - with very little hope of deliverance any aeon soon. -------------------------------------------------- metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" 25279 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Dear Kenhowardau: --------------------------------------------------------------- KenH:" As a struggling beginner, there's no way I can understand > suttas without the help of the Abhidhamma and the > commentaries. And I certainly can't do battle with you > if I have to keep one hand tied behind my back :-)" ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is sure right, Ken!!! I am a reader of Dhammapada (Bikkhu K. Assrany´s portuguese translation) and of Sutta Nipata (Saddhatissa´s english translation) from my teens, and the reading of Abhidhamma (mainly the Dhammasangani) opened up entirely my understanding about these texts... and many others! I´ve got now a more clever mind picture of the Suttas´ main structure(if there is any!!!). I´ve downloaded all Visuddhimagga in german, but the so meritorious task of reading german and hearing Die Deutschewelle must to be postponed till I arrive back from boot camp!!! I am departing today!!! Good Hunting, kenH !!! Mettaya, Ícaro 25280 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:46am Subject: BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris, KenH, Jim and friends I am departing today to my military boot camp. I will be off-line a lot of days and I closed my E-mail box at Yahoo´s to discussion group messages: if I get some spare time and internet access, I will read and post the messages for dsg´s and pali´s direclty at group pages! And my Dhamma Diary is going on and on!!! Don´t you all even conceive to nurture the impression of a thought to miss my thrilling next chapter: "After a MUTTON Scèance, what´s Reality ?" Ah, Sarah... "Mutton Scèance" means An Evening meal of Lamb...it´s a sure influence of the animated cartoon "Sheep in the Big City" (I-am-really-watching-so-much-"Sheep in the Big City"- at-Cartoon- Network!) I will be back... Mettaya, Ícaro 25281 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Proximate cause of understanding Hi Jon, The statement: "non-perplexity as its proximate cause," is due to a translation mistake in The Expositor and was corrected by Nina after I pointed it out. You must have missed the following correction Nina posted to DSG on Aug. 3: < Datum: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:28:56 +0200 Aan: Gwyn Davies Onderwerp: Re: perfections and attachm. Dear Alan, Thank you very much, I announced it already. I have a correction now for Cetasikas, p. 321, definition of understanding by Atthasalini: change into . non-perplexity as manifestation. This was a mistake in the Expositor from which I quoted(I, p. 162) and corrected by a Pali expert. Nina.>> > Jim > > Nina's 'Cetasikas' (Ch. 34) quotes the following passage from the > Atthasaalini I, Book I, Part IV, chapter I, 123 which I presume is > from the PTS translation: > > "Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering > penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow > shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function, > as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its proximate cause, as it were > a good guide in the forest." > > Jon > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Sarah, > ... > > Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had > > to > > say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention > > of > > concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it > > mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes > > concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't > > the > > latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? > 25282 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, TG (and Ken H) - In a message dated 9/13/03 2:07:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Ken H > > I think you had better find the sutta and copy it down. There are several > suttas where the Buddha deals with "The All" and I've never heard one deal > with > it in the way you've stated here. Especially as detailed in your last two > paragraphs. > > Apparantly you are saying that when hearing a sound, the eye doesn't exist? > > I think you'd have to search pretty hard to find the Buddha saying that, and > > then I think you would still not find it. ;) > > Here's what the Dispeller of Delusion, an Abhidhamma commentary, says about > causal happenings... > > 'A mere state that has got its conditions > Ushers in the subsequent existence > It has not transmigrated from the past > Nor does it come about, not caused thereby' (Dispeller of Delusion, > (Sammohavinodani), Ch. 6, 741) > > 'So it is this mere material and immaterial state [matter and mind], which > arises when it has obtained its conditions, that ushers in (lit. "comes > into") > the subsequent existence, is what is said [above]; it is not a lasting > being, > not a soul, and it has neither transmigrated here from a past existence, nor > > yet is it manifested here without cause from that [past conditions].' > (Dispeller of Delusion, Ch. 6, 742) > > Past interactions conditioned the present, the present interactions > condition > the future. There is nothing that travels through time unchanged, nor is > there anything that arises that was not caused by past > conditions/interactions. > > TG > ================================ I understand what you are saying here, TG. I think it is correct, but can be extended a bit, modified a bit. It is true that on a given occasion, there are just eye sense, visual object, and visual awareness operative. I would add to this, however, that it is also true that certain other past conditions have likely occurred which constitute (or create) the potential for the subsequent arising (pending, perhaps the arising of one or two additional supportive conditions) of, say, the arising of ear sense, audible object, and auditory awareness. So, what I'm saying is that although, on a given occasion, there is only one act of contact that is actual, there are typically numerous other acts, via the same and other sense doors, that are potentials of varying degrees, "waiting in the wings" as it were. For the full picture, I think we need to look at both actuality and potentiality, because previously occuring conditions result in both current actualities and in current potentialities. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25283 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Hi, Icaro - I wish everything good for you. May you learn well, be safe, and find time for Dhamma practice (which can be almost any time that doesn't require 100% devotion of attention elsewhere - like climbing over wooden walls or crawling on your belly under obstacles with live ammunition whizzing over your head! ;-). With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/13/03 7:46:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > Dear Sarah, Jon, Chris, KenH, Jim and friends > > I am departing today to my military boot camp. I will be off-line > a lot of days and I closed my E-mail box at Yahoo´s to discussion > group messages: if I get some spare time and internet access, I will > read and post the messages for dsg´s and pali´s direclty at group > pages! > And my Dhamma Diary is going on and on!!! Don´t you all even > conceive to nurture the impression of a thought to miss my thrilling > next chapter: "After a MUTTON Scèance, what´s Reality ?" > > Ah, Sarah... "Mutton Scèance" means An Evening meal of Lamb...it´s > a sure influence of the animated cartoon "Sheep in the Big City" > (I-am-really-watching-so-much-"Sheep in the Big City"- at-Cartoon- > Network!) > > I will be back... > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25284 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] questions on not-self In a message dated 9/13/2003 1:14:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > The quote in the sutta seems very specific, seemingly related to a > single present moment. 'THIS is not mine THIS is not my self THIS > is not what I am'. > Hi Christine When the Buddha says -- "this is not Mine..., etc.," the word "this" is not indicating a temporal moment, the word "this" is referring to whatever aggregate or element or state he is referring to at that time. I've never seen one of those where he was referring to time. At least that's the way I see it. Random deluded based thoughts cannot be stopped simply by trying to stop them. (Maybe short term they can but not indefinitely.) That's why insight is needed. Insight "occupies the mind" not letting the "deluded mental meandering" get a chance to meander. Insight's culmination in arahatship results in the elimination of delusion. At that point the problem is permanently solved. TG 25285 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard In a message dated 9/13/2003 3:14:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Thanks, I agree entirely with what you quoted. But what > I'm trying to say is, if you refuse to accept the > Abhidamma, it is meaningless to select parts of it and > quote them in order to refute the whole of it. > Hi Ken H This will be my last post on this matter. Regarding the above statement, I don't reject anything or accept anything without testing it. I find most of the Abhidhamma very useful. I also find some "abhidhamma interpretations/commentaries" to be questionable if not downright harmful. The Buddha didn't encourge serious thinking people that he was face to face with to blindly believe him. He wanted them to test the teaching. How much more so documents that are 2,500 years old. The Buddha basically said (paraphrasing) -- ...to accept what is well spoken (what works) and reject what is poorly spoken (what doesn't work.) I definitely encourge study of abhidhamma although I think the suttas are the heart of the matter. But more than that I recommend not believing anything without testing it to see if it works. If its beyond the ability to test, then its not worth developing a strong opinion (or any opinion) about IMO. TG 25286 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions on not-self Hello TG, Thanks for your post. There is only the present moment. In reality, I don't think there is any other time. Once, I firmly believed that 'insight's culmination' would be "In this very life" as per U Pandita. I am no longer so sure of the imminence of enlightenment. I think I expressed myself a little awkwardly in my initial post. My first teacher followed the Burmese manner of formal samatha-vipassana meditation (with noting). So, I meant paying attention to the four domains of body, feeling, mind and phenomena - paying attention to whichever constantly changing dhamma is arising and ceasing in this present moment ... and being aware that, whatever it is, 'THIS is not me, THIS is not mine, THIS is not my self.' metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... 25287 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa (nina) hi nina, Thanks for your comments. I think i have alot to study, observe and contemplate before I really understand this. I was wondering if I could also get your your opinion regarding below: There is no question that the visudhimaga and the abhidamma are valuable books. I was wondering why I have read much criticism toward it; and what problems they are referring to? I notice many people find it indispensable to clarify the more arcane matters, and in defining certain aspects of dhamma. Do you feel they are indispensible in clarifying matters or do you think it is possible to recieve a full understanding with only the nikayas? would appreciate any comments. peace and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Nori, > you touched on a very complex subject. I looked at the sutta and Co, but I > have to continue studying it. 25288 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Ken: "The notion of just one conscious moment at a time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though." Hi Ken, I agree but I would like to see more explanation from the texts on this. For example, I think there has to be a difference between internal rupa and external rupa. Surely abhidhamma isn't saying the external rupa that makes up the sense bases only lasts, at most, for the duration of 17 consciousnesses. I think this 17X lifetime only applies to the *impulse* that is generated by the sensitive matter of the sense base and interrupts the bhavanga stream. I don't know if abhidhamma has identified such an impulse though. This also slightly complicates "contact". Is contact when external rupa contacts sense base or when consciousness contacts this impulse? I would think all the sense bases are constantly being bombarded with external contact, all at the same time. What dictates one consciousness at a time? Larry 25289 From: Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] questions on not-self Hi Christine, My 2-cents worth below: Christine: Is it fair to say that Self is a relationship to any particular data coming through the sense doors that regards it as 'this is part of me', 'this is what I am'; and that anatta (not-self) is a relationship that does not try to hang on, hold to, or control any experience i.e. one says 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am'? Larry: Instead of saying "one says" I would say "one knows". This doesn't have to be cosmicly profound knowing. It could be very mundane. The relationship is actually dependent arising. C: The quote in the sutta seems very specific, seemingly related to a single present moment. 'THIS is not mine THIS is not my self THIS is not what I am'. L: I agree with what you said to TG about 'noting'. We are identifying specific stuff, in the moment. That identification in itself goes a long way in de-identifying-with whatever. As the light of understanding brightens we see more and are more deeply convinced this is not worth clinging to in any way. C: Things happen so quickly, so continuously, that one is grabbed by a thought, sight, sound or a feeling before even knowing it has happened. L: Maybe we are "grabbed" only as long as we don't know what happened. I think we are dealing with past experience, sometimes very recent past experience, as accumulation and de-stickifying it. C: Once having clung to an experience or incoming sense data, how does one let go? What is 'letting go'? Can one 'let go'? L: I agree there is no real hanging-onto or letting go but we set up patterns of values that provoke reactions and undo these patterns by reprogramming the values through understanding. C: What is 'enchantment/disenchantment'? L: Enchantment is being captured by your own spell. Disenchantment is seeing through the magic. See the Kalakarama Sutta. C: Are they different to 'clinging' 'not clinging' 'craving' 'not craving'? And what is the difference between disenchantment and dispassion? L: Clinging is owning as me or mine. Craving is wanting. Disenchantment is awakening. Dispassion is the result. Larry 25290 From: jaranoh Date: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:09pm Subject: week 5 (Jul 7 02) no 6 Q: Let's take a step back before satipatthana. Citta does not experience the dhamma, but understand the 'story' (all pannati). It seems that pannatti is more powerful than the paramattha dhamma. It's hard to be aware of it 'in time' before it falls away. Ajarn Sujin, you have been teaching us, but still we have not heard enough from you. Could you continue the discussion on this subject once again? A: Yes. This is very important. We often talk about satipatthana, vipassana ~na.na, lokutara citta etc. We often forget or ignore that there is important understanding in the level before arising of satipatthana. First of all, we don't have to think whether or not sati will arise. But it is far more important to understand that everything daily is dhamma, reality, element that exist without anyone's creation. Nobody can create, and we cannot cause them to happen. As we are thinking of creating some dhamma or causing them to arise, a dhamma has already arisen. However, when the dhamma arise, we are not aware and don't understand its characteristics because we are busy hoping for something else to arise or trying to make something else arise. For example, when we talk about the moment of seeing being dhamma, which is ordinary. Sacca ~na.na understands firmly that this seeing is anatta and has arisen. The nature of dhamma, all realities, are is simply this way: they are anatta, so noone can create and control. They always appear as they arise, and it's up to the level of understanding to undertand and be aware of their characteristics and nature. Now dhamma has arisen but if satipatthana does not arise, there won't be true understanding of characteristics of that dhamma. This is understanding in sacca ~na.na level. One should firmly understand (have the knowledge of) the nature of dhamma and sati, etc, in the intellectual level instead of attempting to 'do' something or 'make' something happen. Thinking of dhamma, understanding that there are characteristics and nature to be understood directly is on the right path of directly experience the dhamma. Sometime later after when this knowledge has settled in the mind firmly, sati, even without calling it sati, arises to be aware of the dhamma and its nature. Without having to do anything, making anything arise, but understanding that there are characteristics to be understood, the right understanding begins to develop. This is difficult since we are not familiar with the characteristics of dhamma because of our ignorance. We are more familiar with 'hope', 'ambition', 'desire' and 'work for what we want'. But if we listen enough to understand that sacca ~na.na is the deep and profound understanding of dhukkha-sacca in four ariya sacca, we should understand that everything appearing now arise and fall away, is dhukka, and does not below to anyone. This is because they fall away as they arise, so noone can take them into possession. Q: Often, we just are not made to think this way... A: Right understanding accumulates .. starting from here. Q: We are stuck at the 'story' of dhamma. A: Well, what we are talking about is also 'story'. But it is the basis of right understand of higher level. 25291 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Larry, ------------ > Ken: "The notion of just one conscious moment at a > time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though." > > > I agree but I would like to see more explanation from the texts on this. --------------- As you say, we need explanations of how, in the present moment, there can be only one of the six worlds. But the fact there is only this present moment doesn't need any explanation, does it? It only needs a little common sense. If, in this present moment, there could be more than one world -- for example, if there could be both hearing and seeing -- then consciousness would be seeing-hearing consciousness and the object of consciousness would be visible-audible object. But that's not how it is; 'In the seen there is only the seen, in the heard there is only the heard.' That is what we are told in the suttas and it is easily verified by our own direct experience. --------------- > For example, I think there has to be a difference > between internal rupa and external rupa. Surely > abhidhamma isn't saying the external rupa that > makes up the sense bases . . . ------------- If I can stop you there Larry; does the Abhidhamma say that the sense bases are made up of external rupas? I have the idea that each sense base is a rupa (a single rupa) in its own right. (?) -------------- > only lasts, at most, for the duration of 17 > consciousnesses. --------------- I forget now, but I think the sense base rupa arises and falls away with each sense citta. It is only the sense object rupa that lasts up to 17 moments of citta.(?) ------------- > I think this 17X lifetime only applies to the *impulse* > that is generated by the sensitive matter of the sense > base and interrupts the bhavanga stream. I don't know > if abhidhamma has identified such an impulse though. ----------- No, I haven't heard it described that way, as far as I can remember. -------------- > This also slightly complicates "contact". Is contact > when external rupa contacts sense base or when > consciousness contacts this impulse? --------------- Contact is a cetasika; it happens with every citta. --------------- > I would think all the sense bases are constantly being > bombarded with external contact, all at the same time. > What dictates one consciousness at a time? -------------- Could you be confusing conventional physiology with Dhamma here, Larry? When there is a process of bhavanga cittas, no sense bases are conditioned to arise. So there is no bombarding of any sense bases at that time. After a sense-rupa has attracted the attention of the bhavanga citta, then the appropriate sense base and sense consciousness may be conditioned to arise. No other sense bases are conditioned at that time so there can never be simultaneous bombarding of diverse sense bases. Thanks for the questions; they have shaken out a few cobwebs. Kind regards, Ken H 25292 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > I'm skipping the earlier part of your post which > involves,among other > things, the distinctions between Buddhas and other arahants, which > I discussed > rather unclearly, and which isn't all that important anyway. What I > am > including is the final part of our conversation which I think is > quite important, > and which delights me in that it shows us to be VERY much "on the > same page" as > regards practice/cultivation and issues of "control". I find it > amazing (and > quite pleasant) that we actually are very close on this matter. > > With metta, > Howard It's kind of you to say so, Howard. I, too, find it pleasantly surprising that we should be so close on these important issues. Let's hope it lasts ;-)) Jon 25293 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Icaro! It's a slow old day here! there aren't many of us around to farewell you. If it's not too late, on behalf of all at dsg; Have a safe boot camp and we look forward to hearing from you as soon as it suits you. Ken H 25294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:45am Subject: Concentration and samatha Howard Your post to Susan and others revives an interesting thread that we (you and I and Larry and others) have discussed at some length before, namely, the distinction between (a) the development of concentration in the sense of consciousness repeatedly taking the same chosen or preferred object and (b) tranquillity development (samatha bhavana). To my understanding, there is a clear and crucial difference between the two, which tends to get overlooked. First, the mental factor of concentration has no particular moral (kusala or akusala) quality or flavour to it. That is to say, the activity of 'concentrating on a single object' takes its moral quality from other accompanying factors. If the concentrated mind is to be kusala, it must be so by virtue of other exclusively kusala mental factors. Tranquillity development/samatha bhavana, on the other hand, refers to mind-states that are accompanied by exclusively kusala mental factors such as passaddhi (tranquility) and panna (understanding), in this instance the panna that sees the danger in attachment to sense objects and that knows by their respective characteristics the difference between kusala and akusala mind-states. Secondly, it is not a necessary aspect of samatha bhavana that there be any particular degree of concentration in the sense of repeated and continuous taking of the same object by consciousness. To my understanding, even concentration that is associated with akusala mind-states can be developed to high levels, including to jhana if I'm not mistaken. Accordingly, it should not be assumed that signs of progress in the development of concentration (e.g., the appearance of an after-image) are necessarily indicative of the development of the kusala that is samatha bhavana. To take the instance of a mantra such as that you mention, I'm sure it would help in developing concentration, but it's not clear to me why there would be (or, indeed, how there could be) any kusala involved in that activity. I'm sure you have some thoughts on this matter. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Susan, Mike, and Sarah - > > A number of years ago I talked for an hour or so with > Piyatissa > Mahathera at the NY Buddhist Vihara. We got to discussing jhanas - > he believed that > I had made some progress in that direction at the time. It was > Bhante P's > opinion that one could even use a mantra like 1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1 etc, > and that would > work just fine! He wasn't all that concerned with the object of > concentration. I had been using a TM mantra at the time rather > successfully. Subsequently, > I've been told that it sounds like I had been shuttling between the > 2nd and > 5th jhanas. Whatever the case, it's not clear that there were any > long-term > benefits that accrued to me from that, except for the confidence > created that > "there are more things in heaven and earth ... ." Perhaps had I > pursued the jhanas > further, greater benefits might have resulted. > > With metta, > Howard 25295 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! That goes for me too, Ic. All the best. Jon --- kenhowardau wrote: > Icaro! > > It's a slow old day here! there aren't many of us around to > farewell > you. > > If it's not too late, on behalf of all at dsg; Have a safe boot > camp > and we look forward to hearing from you as soon as it suits you. > > > Ken H 25296 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga & Abhidhamma usage Nori Hello from me. I've been following your well-thought out comments and questions for some time, but haven't had an opportunity to join in until now. --- norakat147 wrote: > hi nina, all, ... > I am wondering: Why read and reference later re-interpretations and > commentary ? > > Is it necessary ? > > Is not the totality of the Buddhas teachings contained within the > four Nikayas ? The entirety of the teachings is contained within the four Nikayas, but their intended meaning is not always readily apparent to us. The reason for this, as I see it, is that the teachings were for the most part presented to an audience of monks and lay followers who had a very high level of developed understanding. It is in the nature of things that beings who are ripe for enlightenment are born into the world at the time of a Buddha's arising, so we should not be surprised that the sermons were pitched at a level that is somewhat beyond us ;-)). Even at the time of the Buddha a similar situation applied. There are numerous instances in the suttas and commentaries of a teaching that had been given by the Buddha having to be elaborated and expanded upon afterwards by one of the chief disciples for the benefit of those who weren't able to 'get it' at the time. Indeed, this is how the ancient commentaries first came to be established. Now let's look at a specific instance. In an earlier post you asked about the relationship between nama and rupa, in the cntext of the links in the chain of dependent origination, and you wondered whether nama comes from rupa or vice versa. To give ourselves an idea of the complexity of this area, here are some of the relationships/conditions at work at the single moment at which seeing consciousness experiences visible-object: - The visible-object (a rupa) conditions the seeing consciousness (nama) by way of 'object' condition. - The visible-object, which must have arisen slightly before the moment of seeing consciousness, also conditions the seeing consciousness by way of 'prenascence' condition. - The moment of seeing consciousness (nama) is a moment of vipaka, that is, it is conditioned by 'kamma' condition (it is the result of a moment of intention (a nama) that accompanied some action performed in the past). - Every moment of seeing consciousness needs the simultaneous occurrence of the arising of an eye-base (a rupa), and that moment of eye-base is conditioned by kamma (but not the same kamma that conditions the moment of seeing consciousness). - The visible-object itself may have been conditioned by temperature (rupa) alone (in the case of inanimate matter) or by kamma (nama), nutrition (rupa) and temperature (in the case of animate mater e.g. a person). I could go on, but I shall stop there. Already we can see that the seeing consciousness is related to the visible-object in more than 1 way, and is also dependent on past deeds and the kamma that conditions the eye-base. So you can see there is no simple answer to your question.;-)). This kind of detail is for the most part not apparent on a reading of the suttas alone. It is all useful and indeed necessary background to the understanding of the characteristics on 'not-self' and 'impermanence' that pervade the teachings. When the Buddha asked the monks "Is seeing/visible-object permanent?" and they answered "No" they were speaking from an understanding based on direct experience of dhammas at a level that is far beyond us in these times. He did not have to explain about such matters. I hope this helps show the need for support from the rest of the canon in coming to a proper understanding of the suttas. Just a personal perspective. Comments welcome. Jon 25297 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:concept as condition Dear Nina (Toby, Howard, Ken H, TG, Jon), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Upanissaya paccaya(decisive support condition) is rather tricky. ..... .... S: Yes, that was why I was careful to make a rather general comment (at end of post);-). While I agree with TG that the Dhamma is for testing and checking out, I also think we need to take the Dhamma-Vinaya (including the Abhidhamma) as our teacher. On this point, Jon wrote before: ***** Jon (to Howard): “I believe that when we come across something like this that runs counter to our intuitive views we should resist the temptation to immediately rationalise or reject it, and should simply acknowledge the difference that exists and keep it in mind for future reference. If later we find it confirmed by other textual sources, then maybe we need to consider further our views on the subject.” ***** and on another thread (to Herman): Jon: “On the face of it, the story-line runs counter to standards we have been brought up to consider fair and decent. Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings that run counter to either our taught values or innately held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in accordance with the way things are.” ***** and once more (to Christine): Jon: “If it's any consolation, Chris, many people have gone through similar exasperations in coming to understand the teachings. Being one of those myself, I've come to realise that there's a very simple explanation for this -- the teachings are counter-intuitive to wrong view!” ****** Nina: > Concepts are object-condition, but as far as I understand it, they are not mentioned under the objects which can be object-predominance and object decisive support condiitons. I looked at the charts of Ven. Narada, p.128. But as to natural strong dependence, food, climate, I think there are concepts. Generally, the Patthana deals only with paramattha dhammas. But the chart on p. 137 mentions the concepts which are the objects of jhana as object-condition. So, the last one is not easy: friends, climate, etc. are they the paramatthas which they represent or also the concepts of a whole? I would like to check this again, and correct if necessary. In the chart I do not see concepts under natural strong dependence. [...] > Yes, I have it. Concepts are pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural strong dependence condition) for kusala or akusala. A human being, for instance can be object of metta or respect.< ..... S: A tricky area as you say! I’ve asked K.Sujin about these points more than once, but sometimes I forget the answers and in any case it’s helpful to check the texts. I’ll add a few more references. ***** Guide to Conditional Relations by U Narada, Ch 11, p9: Under object condition, it lists all objects including concepts: “Of these latter objects, materiality, consciousness and mental factors are either of the past, present or future but Nibbana and concept are time-freed. So in this object condition there is no state that cannot be an object of consciousness and mental factors. This object condition pervades the teaching in the Pali canon.” ***** As there is no doubt about all concepts being included under this condition, I won’t add more references on it. I also understand that concepts cannot be conditioning states as object-predominance and therefore not as object decisive support condition either. ch11, p14 “Concepts do not possess intrinsic characteristics. As only ultimate realities with such characteristics are dealt with here, concepts are never conditioning states of object-predominance.” U Silananda’s charts (as shown in CMA) confirm object predominance and object decisive suport conditioning states are the same. ***** CMA ch V111, 17 (transl of AbhidhamatthaSangaha): “In two ways concepts and mind-and-matter are conditions for mind -namely, by way of object and decisive support. (aaramma.navasena upanissayavasenaa ti ca duvidhaa pa~n~natti naamaruupani naamass’eva paccayaa honti). It continues to mention the various objects and the wide nature of natural decisive support conditions including states of lust, states of faith, individuals, food, season, lodgings etc. In the latter cases, I understand it to be the concepts referred to. For example, looking at a picture of food, all that is seen is visible object, but the thoughts about what is seen --the concepts -- can be a decisive condition for attachment. Likewise, now, I’m looking out of the window at the rain and instantly it can be a condition (the concept) for aversion. Exposition of the Topics of Abhidhamma (comy to the above), Ch8,22: “....Therefore natural decisive-support causal conditions consist of greed, etc or faith, etc, that have been produced in one’s own mental continuity, or seasonal change and food, etc, that have been repeatedly experienced.” ***** Sayadaw U Silananda’s charts (inc in CMA) Under natural decisive support condition, it lists “strong previous 89cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas and some kinds of pa~n~natti (concepts)” as conditioning factors. (Under object condition any concept can be the conditioning factor, but here only ‘some kinds’ are listed.) ***** Pa.t.thaana (Conditional Relations - last bk of Abhidhamma Pitaka): In ‘Analytical Exposition of the Conditions’, p.7, under strong-dependence condition refers to weather, food, a person and a lodging-place as conditioning factors. (I assume these are just examples but wonder how ‘some concepts’ might be defined. As Azita and I know, the concept of a computer would appear to be a ‘decisive-support’ condition for some pretty strong mental states...). Under ‘Faultless Triplet’, p159 under natural strong-dependence condition it lists wholesome states condtioning unwholesome ones which are always a good reminder. Eg, “By the strong dependence of wisdom, (one) arouses conceit, adopts wrong views”. How useful it can be to reflect on the various conditions. On p.164 it mentions the concepts listed already such as temperature, food, lodging-place and so on. Eg “Lodging-place is related to bodily happiness, bodily pain, attainment of Fruition by strong-depenence condition.” ***** Nina, thank you and also Toby & Howard for raising these questions. It’s been very helpful for me to check and consider again more carefully. Jon and I had fun pulling out texts and discussing these details a little last night too;-) Finally, a couple of good reminders from U Narada, the translator of Patthana (Conditional Relations): “With regard to the Abhidhamma expounded by the Buddha, the analyses of the states involved are difficult and the individual characteristics (sabhaava) of the states are deep and profound.” and “If one considers the teaching of the Abhidhamma starting with the Dhammasangani and ending with Patthana, it will be seen that aggregates, bases, elements and so on are expounded in them. This shows that the realities, with which Abhidhamma deals, consist of aggregates, bases and elements that behave according to their own natures and, therefore, are not dependent on one’s wishes. In other words, the realities behave according to the principle of anatta.” (from Preface to Guide to Conditional Relations by U Narada). With metta, Sarah ===== S: > > If we look at the 24 paccaya, concepts are also included in arammana paccaya(object condition) and upanissaya paccaya (decisive support condition). 25298 From: Frank Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:16am Subject: question I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 edition). At the beginning a distinction is made between citta and cetasika. One fundamental aspect of this distinction puzzles me: p. 13: "Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object […]" The way I understand this – and correct me if I'm wrong – is that cetasikas "colour" or "help" the citta to construct/experience an object. But then there's this: p. 9: "vedana, is a cetasika which arises with every citta." p. 17: "Vedanakhandha (feeling) is real; we can experience feelings." If a cetasika experiences an object (cf. p. 13), then who is the "we" doing the experiencing on p. 17? Frank 25299 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, When you write (as you have before) about the difference between concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. Also, on another point you make, I wonder if it's possible that jhaanic states could ever be classified as akusala since they are not classified as such in this category in Dhs. However, I can see how they could serve as conditions for future unwholesome states. Best wishes, Jim > Howard > > Your post to Susan and others revives an interesting thread that we > (you and I and Larry and others) have discussed at some length > before, namely, the distinction between (a) the development of > concentration in the sense of consciousness repeatedly taking the > same chosen or preferred object and (b) tranquillity development > (samatha bhavana). > > To my understanding, there is a clear and crucial difference between > the two, which tends to get overlooked. 25300 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Icaro - > > I wish everything good for you. May you learn well, be safe, and > find > time for Dhamma practice (which can be almost any time that doesn't > require > 100% devotion of attention elsewhere - like climbing over wooden walls > or > crawling on your belly under obstacles with live ammunition whizzing > over your head! > ;-). ..... I'm wondering why you would see 'Dhamma practice' as any limitation in the latter scenarios and why it can be at 'almost any time', rather than 'at any time'??? Metta, Sarah ====== 25301 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > When you write (as you have before) about the difference between > concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being > an > akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show > the difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the > Dhammasangani > §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as > wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist > Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. You're right, Jim, I have always thought of samatha as a purely kusala dhamma (perhaps because it tends to cme up in the context of samatha bhavana). Thanks for the reference, which I look forward to checking out. (And yes, I've written on this topic before. I'm trying to get a handle on it ;-).) > Also, on another point you make, > I wonder if it's possible that jhaanic states could ever be > classified > as akusala since they are not classified as such in this category > in Dhs. However, I can see how they could serve as conditions for > future unwholesome states. Well, I have no recollection as to whether or not I've seen them included in any classification of akusala states. I'll keep my eyes open for this in future. Thanks for your comments. Jon 25302 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Ken H & Larry, Good to see you back Ken H from wherever you went....(thx to Andrew for letting us know). > Ken: "The notion of just one conscious moment at a > time is very elementary Theravada Buddhism, though." > > L:> I agree but I would like to see more explanation from the texts on this. --------------- [...] K>:If, in this present moment, there could be more than one world -- for example, if there could be both hearing and seeing -- then consciousness would be seeing-hearing consciousness and the object of consciousness would be visible-audible object. But that's not how it is; 'In the seen there is only the seen, in the heard there is only the heard.' That is what we are told in the suttas and it is easily verified by our own direct experience. ..... I’m not sure if this reference will satisfy Larry , but as I recently quoted it, it’s handy;-) (the Udana, Enlightenment Ch, 10 with Bahiya, Masefield trans): The Buddha addressed Bahiya:“ Therefore, Bahiya, you should train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard....” The commentary adds: “ ‘With respect to the seen there will be merely the seen(di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m;with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness.” ***** I have quite a few posts addressed to me waiting for answers so you’ll need to find any further references or answers on your own ;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I think there are some past posts and quotes on the speed of cittas may be relevant. ====== 25303 From: Sarah Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminous mind Hi Andrew, Thanks for raising this very controversial issue;-) --- Andrew wrote: > At the Cooran weekend, we briefly discussed the idea of the mind > being luminous (I think it was in relation to Reg's article?). In the > Brahmanimantanika Sutta, the following verse appears: > "Consciousness non-manifesting, > Boundless, luminous all-round". > Bhikkhu Bodhi notes (513): "... if we take pabham as 'luminous', > which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the > mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idam cittam, AN i.10) and > also suggests the light of wisdom (pannapabha), called the best of > lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not > Nibbana itself, but the arahant's consciousness during the meditative > experience of Nibbana ... this meditative experience does not > manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be > truly described as 'non-manifesting'." .... I'd be grateful if you'd look over these past posts in which I've discussed these same lines and quote others like Suan, Jim & RobK who have as well, I think. Some of us prefer to stick to the commentary explanations;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3602.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m4190.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11396.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12876.html If you go to UP and down to 'Luminous' you'll also find a lot of very detailed discussion on 'luminous', plus Nina and Jim's translation of the commentary to ANi 10, plus some correspondence with B.Bodhi on this topic. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I think Reg would find some of these posts very interesting if you could print them out for him. It would be good to hear his and your further comments, qus or clarifications;-) I sincerely hope he's able to join the discussions directly one day. Meanwhile we'll consider him as a 'honorary' member, especially as we have his pic in the album already;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Perhaps anytime you wander off from the list, you can ask KenH or Chris to give you a nudge if you've missed any replies. Better still, perhaps, you could try going to escribe on return and keying in your name in the search(be glad it's not Robert) and posts mentioning you will appear in most recent order;-) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ================================================ --- Andrew wrote: > Dear all > At the Cooran weekend, we briefly discussed the idea of the mind > being luminous (I think it was in relation to Reg's article?). In the > Brahmanimantanika Sutta, the following verse appears: > "Consciousness non-manifesting, > Boundless, luminous all-round". > Bhikkhu Bodhi notes (513): "... if we take pabham as 'luminous', > which seems better justified, the verse links up with the idea of the > mind as intrinsically luminous (pabhassaram idam cittam, AN i.10) and > also suggests the light of wisdom (pannapabha), called the best of > lights (AN ii.139). I understand this consciousness to be, not > Nibbana itself, but the arahant's consciousness during the meditative > experience of Nibbana ... this meditative experience does not > manifest any conditioned phenomena of the world, and thus may be > truly described as 'non-manifesting'." > Metta > Andrew 25304 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Elusive Mind-Door Objects & Samatha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/14/03 3:30:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > It's kind of you to say so, Howard. I, too, find it pleasantly > surprising that we should be so close on these important issues. > > Let's hope it lasts ;-)) > ======================= Me, too - but I guess that's a vain hope, especially for Buddhists! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25305 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 3:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/14/03 3:46:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Your post to Susan and others revives an interesting thread that we > (you and I and Larry and others) have discussed at some length > before, namely, the distinction between (a) the development of > concentration in the sense of consciousness repeatedly taking the > same chosen or preferred object and (b) tranquillity development > (samatha bhavana). > > To my understanding, there is a clear and crucial difference between > the two, which tends to get overlooked. > > First, the mental factor of concentration has no particular moral > (kusala or akusala) quality or flavour to it. That is to say, the > activity of 'concentrating on a single object' takes its moral > quality from other accompanying factors. If the concentrated mind is > to be kusala, it must be so by virtue of other exclusively kusala > mental factors. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would suspect that concentrating on various objects that are common-sensically either kusala or neutral (such as various sounds) leads to calm, ease, and the absence of opposing features. Concentrating intently on lustful thoughts or vengeful thoughts or intentions etc, however, while generating energy, are unlikely to engender calm. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Tranquillity development/samatha bhavana, on the other hand, refers > to mind-states that are accompanied by exclusively kusala mental > factors such as passaddhi (tranquility) and panna (understanding), in > this instance the panna that sees the danger in attachment to sense > objects and that knows by their respective characteristics the > difference between kusala and akusala mind-states. > > Secondly, it is not a necessary aspect of samatha bhavana that there > be any particular degree of concentration in the sense of repeated > and continuous taking of the same object by consciousness. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I've never read or heard taught any instructions on samatha bhavana that did not emphasize guarding the senses, sila bhavana, *and* concentration practice of some sort. The samatha-bhavana *meditation* that I engage in is of two sorts. The primary cultivation uses mindfulness of the breath, which is one of "the forty" and which is a focusing on a repeated conventional object (though, as the concentration and mindfulness grow, one does begin to penetrate closer to the paramattha level - at a certain point, there is a bit of a choice at a relatively early stage, a fork in the road as it were, where going to the left leads towards more focussed concentration and the jhanas, and going towards towards the right leads to more precise mindfulness and non-absorption). The other, secondary, approach I use is mindfulness of sensations in the body - the "Goenka technique", which is actually a combined samatha-vipasanna cultivation technique, as I see it. BTW, the concentrating on a repeating conventional object such as the breath or a mantra has a lulling effect, which is an obvious source of the calming. If the object of concentration were a harmful one, however, such as the repeated shrieking of "kill" (as at some rock concerts or in terrorist training camps), it would certainly not lead to calm! ---------------------------------------------------- > > To my understanding, even concentration that is associated with > akusala mind-states can be developed to high levels, including to > jhana if I'm not mistaken. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I would doubt that, Jon. Perhaps an *initial* concentrating with akusala mindstates could evolve into something else, due to prevailing conditions. In any case, once a jhana or even access concentration is attained, it would seem that akusala states are impossible. Look, for example at the following quoted material taken from ATI: ************************ > [First jhana] > "There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture > and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and > evaluation. *************************** Note how it says "withdrawn from unskillful qualities." ----------------------------------------------------------- Accordingly, it should not be assumed> > that signs of progress in the development of concentration (e.g., the > appearance of an after-image) are necessarily indicative of the > development of the kusala that is samatha bhavana. > > To take the instance of a mantra such as that you mention, I'm sure > it would help in developing concentration, but it's not clear to me > why there would be (or, indeed, how there could be) any kusala > involved in that activity. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Once a jhana is attained, Jon, the states are quite kusala. --------------------------------------------------- > > I'm sure you have some thoughts on this matter. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25306 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/14/03 8:42:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Icaro - > > > > I wish everything good for you. May you learn well, be safe, and > >find > >time for Dhamma practice (which can be almost any time that doesn't > >require > >100% devotion of attention elsewhere - like climbing over wooden walls > >or > >crawling on your belly under obstacles with live ammunition whizzing > >over your head! > >;-). > ..... > I'm wondering why you would see 'Dhamma practice' as any limitation in the > latter scenarios and why it can be at 'almost any time', rather than 'at > any time'??? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================= My hat is off to you Sarah, if you would be able to be engaging in *any* form of "Dhamma practice" under the circumstances I suggested, unless, of course, you believe that all soldiers and everyone else is always engaged in "Dhamma practice," but that does water down the term, it seems to me. Just to be a bit more to the point: When scurrying on the ground with live ammo passing overhead, it is *not* the time to contemplate the Dhamma nor is it the time to note impermanence or impersonality, nor is it the time to carefully note the distinction between nama and rupa; it is the time to keep 100% attention on staying low to the ground, moving forward quickly, and avoiding the dangerous conventional objects coming in your direction, the same as for every other soldier. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25307 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! Ich auch, Ic! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] BOOT CAMP HERE I GO !!!!!!!!!!!! > That goes for me too, Ic. All the best. > Jon > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Icaro! > > > > It's a slow old day here! there aren't many of us around to > > farewell > > you. > > > > If it's not too late, on behalf of all at dsg; Have a safe boot > > camp > > and we look forward to hearing from you as soon as it suits you. > > > > > > Ken H > 25308 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Ken: "But the fact there is only this present moment doesn't need any explanation, does it?" Hi Ken, I think the question is is there any dhamma outside the present experience? I would say abhidhamma says yes because it describes pre- experience dhammas such as rupa before it touches the sense base, the sense base itself, and the bhavanga stream, not to mention other people. One could even argue that individual citta processes are not experienced. To say that seeing color does not happen when hearing sound is possibly true but it doesn't say why or rule out other realities. Instead of saying "there is only the present moment" I would say "the present moment is only the present moment OF EXPERIENCE". That's all there is to the present moment of experience but not all there is. It can't be right that sense base is only one rupa. Nothing is one rupa. Also, I think there has to be two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation. Otherwise sense base makes no sense. Larry 25309 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Larry (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/14/03 2:08:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Ken: "But the fact there is only this present moment doesn't need any > explanation, does it?" > > Hi Ken, > > I think the question is is there any dhamma outside the present > experience? I would say abhidhamma says yes because it describes pre- > experience dhammas such as rupa before it touches the sense base, the > sense base itself, and the bhavanga stream, not to mention other > people. One could even argue that individual citta processes are not > experienced. To say that seeing color does not happen when hearing > sound is possibly true but it doesn't say why or rule out other > realities. Instead of saying "there is only the present moment" I > would say "the present moment is only the present moment OF > EXPERIENCE". That's all there is to the present moment of experience > but not all there is. > > It can't be right that sense base is only one rupa. Nothing is one > rupa. Also, I think there has to be two kinds of rupa: the physical > rupa and the rupa sensation. Otherwise sense base makes no sense. > > Larry > ========================= I agree with you in some respects, and disagree in another. As to agreement, whether one considers events other than the currently experienced aramanna to be unexperienced actualities (your objectivist position) or to be potentialities for experience (my conditionalist-phenomenalist perspective), I think that it is clear that such other dhammas are countenanced not only by common sense, but also, quite explicitly - in terms of kalapas - by Abhidhamma/Commentary. As to disagreement, I do not think "there HAS to be [Howard's emphasis] two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation." I think that the hardness that is sensed and cognized needn't be anything other than the experienced hardness per se (the "rupa sensation" as you put it) - a phenomenon, not a neumenon; I see no need to presume some unexperienced underlying "external" hardness. As in the Bahiya Sutta, in the sensed, let there be only the sensed: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25310 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Dear Larry, Very difficult to answer all your questions. Even a few lines of Tiika take so long. I have to jump, it is very long and I cannot translate it all. op 13-09-2003 00:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: 1. What does "adverting to the path" mean? Is it self consciousness? N: First we should note this: sense-door and mind-door adverting-consciousness (aavajjana-citta) are the first cittas of these processes, they advert for the first time to the object. adverting (aavajjana) to the path: the citta preceding the Path-consciousness arising in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Change-of lineage is not lokuttara citta, although it has nibbaana as object, it just adverts to the Path and it is immediately succeeded by the lokuttara citta which is path-consciousness. L: 2.nibbaana be simply an absence of cetasikas or at least sa~n~naa? N: nibbaana is the object of lokuttara citta, it has nothing to do with citta or cetasika. And sanna accompanying lokuttara citta is also lokuttara, sanna arises with each citta. It does not help to speculate about its function when it is lokuttara, since we can only think about it, we have not attained to that stage. L,3. The reason for my bewilderment is that I don't see how direct > understanding fits into the three kinds of understanding: reason, > hearing, development. Are the higher levels of insight considered to be > attainments and therefore classified under "development" or are they all > reasoning based on hearing and observation? N: Attainment under development: Tiika comes back to that later on. I understand your disinclination to Pali, but, English terms like reasoning create confusion. The Dhammasangani, p. 15, footnote, the translator thinks it best to reject such terms for panna as reason, intellect and understanding... Jim mentioned this para of Dhsg, with reference to kosalla, skill. We shall come to kosalla later on, it implies the four right efforts which can only be fulfilled by panna of vipassana. He also gives the Tiika term pa.n.dicca, think of pandita: wise person. I quote the para of dsg so that you can see that there are many words for panna. And we should remember that all these classifications of the Vis. as one, as twofold, threefold etc. are just about panna. Nothing else but panna. We read, para 16: Only when we begin to develop understanding or wisdom, by being aware of nama and rupa appearing at this moment, we shall come to understand all these terms. These terms are not theory. What we read in the Visuddhimagga and Tiika is not just theory. Nina. 25311 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: >_(the Udana, Enlightenment Ch, 10 with Bahiya, Masefield trans): The Buddha addressed Bahiya:" Therefore, Bahiya, you should train yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, that with respect to the heard.... Hi Sarah & Ken, We could also say with respect to the seen there will be all the universal cetasikas. It just depends on what you mean by "be". Larry 25312 From: Larry Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 1:11pm Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, My view is that jhana is clearly Right Concentration. I don't know what the official definition of "right" is but I would think it includes all the path factors. So even though none of the jhana factors are exclusively wholesome all of the path factors are assumed as 'context'. Additionally, I don't see why a mantra couldn't be an object of right concentration as long as it was elemental or wholesome. What's the difference between a sound and a color (colour). On another tack, I would say all 40 objects of jhana are mantra insofar as they are repititious vitakka and vicara. However, traditionally, mantra is sanskrit only and not necessarily used to develop one pointed concentration, nor is it necessarily wholesome. Larry 25313 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Re: Re Chittapala and simply living. Hi Azita and Christine, All this talk about dogs has been playing on my mind. I keep wondering how my accumulations would manifest if they were born in the animal world. A little easier to imagine is what I would be like as an intellectually disabled human. On the Sunday program yesterday, the cover story was the ''bodies in the barrels' serial killings' -- featuring an interview with the wife of a man who had murdered eleven people by torture. They were all disadvantaged people living on the edge of society. He had been a slaughterman at an abattoir. He loved his work and he especially loved it when the animals died in pain. 'Sheep deserved it because they were stupid; pigs deserved it because they were smelly' and so on. The interviewer asked the wife why hadn't she gone to the police after the first murder; "Because he would have killed me." Did she still love him?' "Yes." Could she forgive him? -- "I don't know if I can forgive him for killing Troy because Troy was my best friend." Everyone involved -- victims and villains -- were unfortunate, simple-minded people searching for stories - - grasping at straws -- to justify the ignorance, selfishness and fear in their lives. Or, more to the point, continually trying to build a secure, external world for their pathetic, all-important egos. We do the same thing except our stories are more sophisticated -- less transparent. How can we tell what stories we would come up with -- how we would explain reality -- if we had less brain-power than we have this time around? Even in this current lifetime, we experience different worlds (in a manner of speaking). Sometimes it's a beautiful world in which we are blessed with a healthy, clear-thinking brain; and then there are those 'bad brain' days when we just have to make the most of a rough deal. How fortunate we are to know that, ultimately, every moment is a new birth into a completely new world. The stories have no influence here, there are just namas and rupas, wholesome or unwholesome, with no control either way. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Azita, > > Azita said: "on the trip from Brisbane to Cooran, I made a > flippant statement about dogs having more Moha than humans and was > almost set upon by the other two in the car [not mentioning names], 25314 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Nina, Thanks for all your comments. I'm still not sure about this one: N: "Change-of lineage is not lokuttara citta, although it has nibbaana as object, it just adverts to the Path and it is immediately succeeded by the lokuttara citta which is path-consciousness." L: Maybe we can revisit this when we get to it in Vism. If we are going too fast, let me know and I will stop for a while. Larry 25315 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:55pm Subject: Re: question Hi Frank, This is a most excellent point that has to be made clear to anyone who joins dsg or reads books like ADL. Nor does it stop there; when listening to taped conversations with K Sujin, I hear people getting confused over the same contradictoriness. Furthermore, it was an issue for people who listened to the Buddha himself. He had to explain, 'when you hear me saying you can/should do this or that, always remember the simile of the chariot -- ultimately there are only these present five khandhas.' There really is no way around it; there can be no effective communication without the risk of 'self' being insinuated into the meaning. Getting back to the question in point: ------------- > p. 17: "Vedanakhandha (feeling) is real; we can > experience feelings." > > If a cetasika experiences an object (cf. p. 13), then > who is the "we" doing the experiencing on p. 17? -------------- My humble understanding of what you were reading on p.17 is that we do have an understanding of what is meant by vedana-khandha; Without having to artificially direct mindfulness to a specific feeling, we already know what is being referred to. To that extent, we have verified the reality of vedanakhandha by our own direct experiences of feelings. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Frank" wrote: > > > I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 > edition). > At the beginning a distinction is made between citta and cetasika. > One fundamental aspect of this distinction puzzles me: > > p. 13: "Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object > […]" > > The way I understand this – and correct me if I'm wrong – > is that > cetasikas "colour" or "help" the citta to > construct/experience an > object. But then there's this: > 25316 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Howard, I don't understand. What does the sense base do if there is no external rupa? Also, it seems like we are getting into 3 kinds of rupa: external rupa (materiality), rupa sensation that interrupts the bhavanga and is the object of several consciousnesses, and the consciousness of rupa (experience or element of experience, as it takes an uncounted number of consciousnesses to make an experience). Considering this line, "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that." I interpret this in citta process terms as meaning when you cognize the seen with the root citta amoha (understanding/wisdom) there will be no lobha, dosa, or moha root cittas, these three being the default "me". Further, the word "only" suggests there isn't much conceptual content in this understanding. I don't see it as defining what does or doesn't exist. Larry Howard: "As to disagreement, I do not think "there HAS to be [Howard's emphasis] two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation." I think that the hardness that is sensed and cognized needn't be anything other than the experienced hardness per se (the "rupa sensation" as you put it) - a phenomenon, not a neumenon; I see no need to presume some unexperienced underlying "external" hardness. As in the Bahiya Sutta, in the sensed, let there be only the sensed: 25317 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa (nina) Hi Nori, op 14-09-2003 00:53 schreef norakat147 op nori_public@a...: > There is no question that the visudhimaga and the abhidamma are > valuable books. > > Do you feel they are indispensible in clarifying matters or do you > think it is possible to recieve a full understanding with only the > nikayas? N: We have a great deal of ignorance, and thus we need many details. The whole of the teachings point to satipatthana: the development of understanding of nama and rupa in order to eradicate wrong view of self and all defilements. The object of understanding are nama and rupa appearing at this moment. It is best when people discover for themselves how much study they need, whether the Abhidhamma helps them, whether the commentaries and the Visuddhimagga helps them. As you could read in Sarah's post: What is expounded in the suttas? aggregates, bases and elements which are non-self. But since we are living in this time, further away from the Buddha's time, we need all the help we can possibly get from the whole of the tipitaka and commentaries, as Jon also explained. Nina. 25318 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] citta and cetasika Hi Frank, op 14-09-2003 13:16 schreef Frank op frankmatton@y...: > I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 > edition). > At the beginning a distinction is made between citta and cetasika. > One fundamental aspect of this distinction puzzles me: > > p. 13: "Citta and cetasika are namas which experience an object > […]" > > The way I understand this – and correct me if I'm wrong – > is that > cetasikas "colour" or "help" the citta to > construct/experience an > object. N: Cetasikas asist the citta, but citta and cetasikas experience the same object. They are nama, reality that experiences. Cetasikas, while they experience that object, each perform their own function. F: p. 9: "vedana, is a cetasika which arises with every citta." > p. 17: "Vedanakhandha (feeling) is real; we can experience > feelings." > > If a cetasika experiences an object (cf. p. 13), then who is the > "we" > doing the experiencing on p. 17? >N: Citta can experience feeling I use the conventional word we here, showing that we all can know what feeling is. I do not speak all the time by way of paramattha dhammas, but also use conventional language. I hope this clarifies, appreciating your interest, Nina. 25319 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/14/03 10:02:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I don't understand. What does the sense base do if there is no external > rupa? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The sense base is not a permanent thing. It arises as does the rupa sensation. They co-occur and are interdependent. Conditioned by that sensing event is its completion, the sensory discernment (vi~n~nana), and the coming together of all three is contact. --------------------------------------------------- Also, it seems like we are getting into 3 kinds of rupa: external> > rupa (materiality), rupa sensation that interrupts the bhavanga and is > the object of several consciousnesses, and the consciousness of rupa > (experience or element of experience, as it takes an uncounted number of > consciousnesses to make an experience). ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I see no necessity for the 1st of these, the external rupa. Moreover, it is in principle unknowable, and thus pragmatically ignorable. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Considering this line, > > "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only > the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the > sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, > there is no you in terms of that." > > I interpret this in citta process terms as meaning when you cognize the > seen with the root citta amoha (understanding/wisdom) there will be no > lobha, dosa, or moha root cittas, these three being the default "me". > Further, the word "only" suggests there isn't much conceptual content in > this understanding. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I interpret this differently. When there is no object-in-itself, there is also no subject-in-itself. (The converse is true as well, a fact often ignored by Mahayanists when they say that Theravadins only accept the emptiness of the "person" but not of "things".) ------------------------------------------------- > > I don't see it as defining what does or doesn't exist. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It doesn't assert the nonexistence of underlying neumena - but it does say to train oneself to experience only phenomena: to see only the seen, hear only the heard, sense only the sensed, and cognize only the cognized. The Buddha's teaching was quite pragmatic. -------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > Howard: "As to disagreement, I do not think "there HAS to be [Howard's > emphasis] two kinds of rupa: the physical rupa and the rupa sensation." > I think that the hardness that is sensed and cognized needn't be > anything other than the experienced hardness per se (the "rupa > sensation" as you put it) - a phenomenon, not a neumenon; I see no need > to presume some unexperienced underlying "external" hardness. As in the > Bahiya Sutta, in the sensed, let there be only the sensed: > > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25320 From: Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Howard: "The sense base is not a permanent thing. It arises as does the rupa sensation. They co-occur and are interdependent. Conditioned by that sensing event is its completion, the sensory discernment (vi~n~nana), and the coming together of all three is contact." Hi Howard, I didn't say the sense base is permanent. I was understanding it as a sense organ. Ken has this same idea also that the sense base only arises with the rupa sensation. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone tell us if this is what abhidhamma really says??? The question remains though, what does the sense base do? Howard: "I see no necessity for the 1st of these, the external rupa. Moreover, it is in principle unknowable, and thus pragmatically ignorable." L: Kamma is in principle unknowable (unexperiencable). Should we ignore it? Howard: "I interpret this [Bahiya Sutta] differently. When there is no object-in-itself, there is also no subject-in-itself. (The converse is true as well, a fact often ignored by Mahayanists when they say that Theravadins only accept the emptiness of the "person" but not of "things".) L: Where does it say there is no object or subject? Consciousness can be a subject without being mistaken for a self. Larry "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that." 25321 From: Andrew Date: Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Luminous mind --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Thanks for raising this very controversial issue;-) > I'd be grateful if you'd look over these past posts in which I've > discussed these same lines and quote others like Suan, Jim & RobK who have > as well, I think. Thank you for the references, Sarah. I have perused them and have to admit that this controversy is a bit over my head at this stage. Still, it's always useful to be reminded of the depth of meaning involved in Dhamma issues and the need to have a firm grasp of the basics. > I think Reg would find some of these posts very interesting if you could > print them out for him. It would be good to hear his and your further > comments, qus or clarifications;-) I sincerely hope he's able to join the > discussions directly one day. Meanwhile we'll consider him as a 'honorary' > member, especially as we have his pic in the album already;-) > Reg says he is going to get a home computer and internet access but we who know him estimate that this could still be years off. He lived in his house for about 10 years before getting electricity connected (it was available the whole time). Before having his house built, he lived in a 2-man tent on site for about 10 years (he had the money to build the whole time). Starting to get the picture??? Reg is such a wonderful friend of mine because he questions everything I take as a "given". When I pull out weeds in my garden, he will stand there and ask "Why are you doing that?" Then I start to think "Well, why AM I doing this?" > p.s Perhaps anytime you wander off from the list, you can ask KenH or > Chris to give you a nudge if you've missed any replies. Better still, > perhaps, you could try going to escribe on return and keying in your name > in the search(be glad it's not Robert) and posts mentioning you will > appear in most recent order;-) > http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ > ================================================ > Thanks for these tips. I'll endeavour to pick up my game but may not get to post much in the coming weeks due to other commitments. Also, I'm not sure that KenH or Christine will apply for the job of babysitting me?? Metta Andrew 25322 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Nori (& Howard), --- norakat147 wrote: > Where I get confused is where do I draw the line of how much to > tolerate before I take action? > > At what point does one have aversion to something and make action to > avoid it? ..... No rules and it depends on conditions;-) What I mean is, that how we may react in any given situation will depend on many factors. Of course the reactions of an arahant will be quite different, but the aim is not to set a rule to copy the life of an arahant, but to understand the accumulated tendencies and the other presently arising namas and rupas. No self that has aversion or takes action either;-) .... > I think its just natural that: "S: we (are) intent upon the pleasant > forms... mental phenomena and so on and repelled by the displeasing > ones? " > > If I were in a burning house, I would leave because I wouldn't want > to tolerate the suffering; repelled by what is 'displeasing'. ..... ....and to stay in the burning house with an idea of tolerating the ‘displeasing’ would be wrong practice and certainly unnatural. ..... > In analogy to this example, one can reply, (not being > sarcastic) "well try and understand why you are suffering at this > moment in this burning building, its because you are intent upon the > pleasant... repelled by the displeasing..." ..... Even whilst fleeing, there can be awareness. This would be one’s daily life at the time, just like escaping bullets may be daily life for the soldier as I see it, Howard. In the satipatthana sutta and commentary we were reading about sati at all times - including whilst getting dressed and going to the toilet. To exclude particular times or occasions or to think that satipatthana would interfere in someway, underestimates the power of sati imho and may be a condition for it not to arise. Anytime, anyplace. Even whilst being attacked by a tiger;-) The development of satipatthana doesn’t mean one is less likely to flee the burning house, passing bullets or ferocious tigers. Understanding isn’t a matter of thinking or paying particular attention, possibly with an idea of self, or labelling certain states and focussing on them. .... > Are we not supposed to be repelled by the displeasing ? .... It’s natural. That doesn’t mean that being repelled is not unwholesome. Not self that is repelled. .... > This is my most confused (and seemingly hypocritical/paradoxical) > issue I have regarding buddhist philosophy: > > Buddhism instructs those to not have desire or aversion and yet > simultaneously, desire and aversion is what guides one's actions > (i.e. desire for happiness; aversion to suffering). ..... Buddhism instructs us to understand the truths. So better to develop understanding of different phenomena than to think there shouldn’t be this or that. Otherwise, we’re just accumulating more attachment. ..... > Buddha defines association with the beloved as dukkha, among other > things that are dukkha. (The dukkha in this case comes from aversion). > > Likewise one will have aversion to say, people stabbing him with a > knife, a burning building, etc. ..... Yes, but it’s not the aversion which will understand the truth of dukkha. .... > (and just asking as a general question regarding the buddhist path > and interpreting "aversion" and "desire" when reading scripture...) > > What do they define those terms to be? ; since, as in my example > above, it is impossible not to have them (those feelings). ... Right - impossible not to have them. ..... > > How does one not have aversion or desire ?; How is this possible ? .... Wishful thinking;-) It’s quite useless to think like this about not having aversion or desire. That doesn’t mean that it’s not extremely helpful to understand these and all other realities when they arise at this moment. Wishing for something different is just an indication of more attachment to self. ... > Will appreciate any thoughts you (or anyone) have regarding this. > PS Thanks for all your replies and thoughts. ..... Oh, a pleasure, Nori. Like Jon, I’m appreciating your questions and keen contributions. With regard to the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhamma, I’d just say, find out for yourself what is useful and what helps clear away the cobwebs. We see here on DSG that even though we’re all reading Theravada texts and sources, we have different interests and inclinations and these change over time as well. Sometimes I put aside a particular text for years with no interest at all. It’s the wise considering, questioning and understanding about present phenomena that counts, not the booklist, imo. With metta, Sarah ======= 25323 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: Luminous mind Hello Andrew (and Sarah), :-) I absolutely and categorically refuse to baby-sit Andrew - he has inveigled his way into Smokey Joe's affections (using the bribe of the evening meal) and to offend him [SJ] would be to get Rusty off- side. So, there you go ... It'll have to be up to KenH. Yesterday was Sunday afternoon at Klaas's .. Reg had a great story about going for a walk and realising someone had 'stolen' lots of the mulch he had collected and piled up .. he spoke about all the flickering and changing feelings and stories that his mind concocted, watching them rise and fall; and how the emotional storm passed and he resumed his walk and heard a cat-bird calling. (Two man tent?? where did the beds fit? .. no electricity?? how did he have a hot shower and shave? ..ohhh .. I see. :-) I can tell that Reg wasn't living in the Beaudesert Shire, or the building inspectors would have been down on him like a ton of bricks. :-)) And to think I actually believed him when he said he was thinking of buying a computer ... sigh. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" , > I'm not sure that KenH or Christine will apply for the job of > babysitting me?? > Metta > Andrew 25324 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I just have to jump in here. If indeed you stated the below, how is it > possible to separate delusion from conceit? Is not delusion the > foundation for > unwholesome states? I would suggest that its impossible to have the > bare belief > "I exist" without some level of personality view being present. ...... Actually it was Toby's paraphrase, not my actual words. You'd need to see my post for what I actually said;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25213 Maybe it was this: “To be honest, I don’t see any suggestion about ‘delusion that self exists’ after self-view has been eradicated in the texts. When there is mana, there is just comparing, rather than any delusion of existing self, as I understand.” ***** I think we agree, but just to clarify further, as you say, moha (ignorance or delusion) is the ‘foundation for all unwholesome states’ and arises with all of these. “Delusion has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge...”(Atthasalini). At moments when conceit arises, there is therefore ignorance and both this ignorance and conceit are only eradicated by the arahant. However, there is no wrong view or wrong delusion about there being any self at moments of conceit at any time. Wrong view and conceit don’t arise together. Also, as wrong view and delusions about a self existing are eradicated by the sotapanna, there is no view of self after this. Toby was referring to the references to ‘asmi maana’ (‘I am’ conceit) in the sutta. I think it’s important to understand the nature of conceit which involves comparing ‘self’ with ‘others’ but without any belief of self. As you suggest, if there’s any idea of self existing, then personality view is present. Even arahants have metta for ‘others’ - obviously without any view that people actually exist. I thought it was an excellent sutta to discuss as it can easily be misunderstood. Perhaps another example of a little abhidhamma being of assistance?? Has this clarified? Appreciating all your other threads and probing of issues. Metta, Sarah ===== 25325 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Luminous mind Hi Christine (& Andrew & Nori), I just opened your post thinking you were going to shed light on the luminous thread....oh well --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Andrew (and Sarah), :-) > > I absolutely and categorically refuse to baby-sit Andrew - he has > inveigled his way into Smokey Joe's affections (using the bribe of > the evening meal) and to offend him [SJ] would be to get Rusty off- > side. So, there you go ... It'll have to be up to KenH. ... I seem to recall that after the first Cooran weekend, you had doubts about all that bloke humour and teasing...now I see you’re giving them all a real run for their mulch in this regard....;-) .... > Yesterday was Sunday afternoon at Klaas's .. Reg had a great story > about going for a walk and realising someone had 'stolen' lots of the > mulch he had collected and piled up .. he spoke about all the > flickering and changing feelings and stories that his mind concocted, > watching them rise and fall; and how the emotional storm passed and > he resumed his walk and heard a cat-bird calling. .... ....so, Nori, attachment and aversion will always find an object whilst there are conditions for them to arise. .... > (Two man tent?? where did the beds fit? .. no electricity?? how did > he have a hot shower and shave? ..ohhh .. I see. :-) ..... I can see that when he eventually joins us, he’ll be giving Jim many tips about how to simplify his lifestyle further;-). If you print out those luminous posts for your next meeting, Reg can then recycle them a few times before using for precious mulch. .... > I can tell that Reg wasn't living in the Beaudesert Shire, or the > building inspectors would have been down on him like a ton of > bricks. :-)) And to think I actually believed him when he said he > was thinking of buying a computer ... sigh. ..... How about you act as babysitter for Andrew when he’s on leave and he acts as translator for you when he’s around (Beaudesert Shire??). [Hint to new members: look in ‘Significant Others’ photo album before reading this post, then read through everything Chris has ever written, then ask for clarifications, if like me you’re still lost. Just don’t suggest dogs and cats are ignorant.....] Metta, Sarah p.s Good to know you’re having fun as well as luminous discussions;-) ===== 25326 From: Sarah Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: >The > discussion could just go and on with no end in sight. .... ;-) I know - - (sorry to put your last line first, but it's a reminder for me to snip.) ..... > It is worth noting that "skilfulness in the (Pali) letters" is > 'akkharakosalla' in Pali. The tika gives 'pa.n.dicca' as a synonym of > 'kosalla' and both terms are given as synonyms of 'pa~n~naa' at Dhs > §16, 20, 34, etc. So, in my view, the development of 'pa~n~naa' can > begin with learning the Pali alphabet and continue to be developed > right to the end with the realization of Nibbana. Of course, the > degree and scope of 'pa~n~naa' increases as one makes progress along > the way. .... We may have to reintroduce 'Pali puzzles' as the subject heading! !!! Isn’t pa.n.dicca derived from pa.n.dita meaning skilled or clever in other contexts? Skilled in the sounds or letters? I don’t know, Jim, but in light of what we’re reading in the Vism and elsewhere, how can we talk about the development of pa~n~naa leading to Nibbana without it being the ‘penetration of characteristics’, of ‘sabhaava’ as opposed to the knowing of concepts as in the skill in Pali letters? What are the characteristics, the namas and rupas known as a result of learning the Pali alphabet. (I don’t mean any disrespect for the latter of course). ..... > 'Sv' is the usual abbr. for Samangalavilaasinii. For > 'Sammohavinodanii' use Vibh-a. ... Thank you and apologies. ..... > > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its > object, > > not a concept as its object." > > This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the > 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to > concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? .... No, I don’t understand any of the discriminations as referring to concepts but to incredibly developed penetrative insight - fully understanding causes, results and so on. I hasten to add, I know very little on this subject. ..... I can > see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any > meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like > to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being > uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or > stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but > the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. .... I don’t understand this to be the meaning at all, though I have no doubt there can be some physilogical or other value - like at the start of my yoga classes when I join in a chant. I’ve no idea what it’s about, but Dr Ma says it’s good for my voice and throat;-) Sometimes too, I read out Pali phrases just for practice. With regard to the discrimination, I understood when I read it that as soon as the sound is heard, the full meaning is comprehended. For example the sounds of ‘attha’ or ‘dhamma’ or ‘hetu’ are heard and without any analysis (or concepts as object) the full and deep meaning is thoroughly known. As I suggested before, this is how a disciple such as Sariputta could hear a few lines of Abhidhamma and thoroughly understand the complexity of detail and how of course, the Buddha, with the greatest knowledge of all could thoroughly understand anything as soon as he was enlightened with his omniscience. It’s difficult to relate it at all to our very limited undestanding at all. But, for example, if I say ‘nama’ or ‘rupa’ to someone who has not heard anything about the Dhamma, it means nothing. If I say it to you or John, without anymore detail, there is a lot of understood meaning. If I said it to someone with greater insight, it would mean a lot more still. So I think to an arahant with patisambhida (discriminations), the full depth of the teachings would be penetrated on hearing these brief sounds. Jim, this is just speculation as I try to make sense to myself;-) Interpreting squiggles from the Pali, I think we have: “...niruttipatisambhida saddarammana nama jata, na paññatti-arammana.” (...Discrimination of Language comes to have sounds as object, not concepts) ..... > I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in > the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities > according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can > understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is > speaking to them. .... Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather than most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages change but “only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) usage, the noble usage, does not change.”??? And it then goes on to talk about why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: “...attained the Discriminations; but when the ear is merely impinged upo, the meaning appears in a hundred ways, in a thousand ways.” .... > > Regarding the Vimuttimagga, I was curious to find out what it had to > say on the proximate or near cause of wisdom. There is no mention of > concentration being the proximate cause but instead (on p. 230) it > mentions 'the four truths' (as with Dhammapaala who also recognizes > concentration) and 'the four kinds of analytical science'. Doesn't the > latter sound an awful lot like the four pa.tisambhidas? .... I’ll pass on this, but will raise your qu on CMA proximate cause as discussed w/ B.Bodhi if I can. ..... > Conventionally speaking, I think of 'studying' as the development of > wisdom in the same way as I think of 'meditating' as the development > of concentration or tranquility. .... Thx for clarifying. I tried my best to keep it short Jim and reluctantly snipped a couple of sub-threads like the Mulapariyaya sutta. It could easily have been twice as long;-) Metta, Sarah p.s I hope you've been reading about the solitary lifestyles of Reg and Chittapala Down Under;-) ===== 25327 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:46am Subject: Re: Re Chittapala and simply living. Dear KenH, It has been on my mind too, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Azita and Christine, > > All this talk about dogs has been playing on my mind. I > keep wondering how my accumulations would manifest if > they were born in the animal world. ], Just today, while lying on the beach enjoying the last rays of sun, after a very hot day, I was reading 'The Wings to Awakening' by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. On p53, this wonderful passage: 'These four imponderables are not to be speculated about. Which four? The Buddha-range of the Buddhas; The jhana-range of one absorbed in jhana; The results of Kamma; Speculation about the first moment, purpose, of the cosmos, is an imponderable not to be speculated about. Whoever speculates about these four things would go mad and experience vexation.' It was the 3rd one about Kamma, that decided I should persue this matter no further as I would possibly go mad. I'll accept that there are good humans, bad humans, good animals, bad animals. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 25328 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/03 12:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "The sense base is not a permanent thing. It arises as does the > rupa sensation. They co-occur and are interdependent. Conditioned by > that sensing event is its completion, the sensory discernment > (vi~n~nana), and the coming together of all three is contact." > > Hi Howard, > > I didn't say the sense base is permanent. I was understanding it as a > sense organ. Ken has this same idea also that the sense base only arises > with the rupa sensation. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone tell us if this is > what abhidhamma really says??? > > The question remains though, what does the sense base do? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing, as I understand it, is an event that involves sensing, sensed, and cognizing - visual content, visual sensing, and followed upon by visual awareness. There is no visual content without visual sensing, and no visual sensing without visual contact, and this pair doesn't occur without the arising of visual awareness, nor does visual awareness arise without the prior arising of this pair. But as to what the sense base does, what does *anything* do? What, for example, does cetana do? It (like anything else) arises due to conditions, and then, in turn serves as a condition. Since it is completely determined by the conditions that lead to its arising, why isn't it, then, completely superfluous, with just the conditions for it being sufficient, and skipping the "middle man" of cetana. In fact, since everything arises according to conditions, everything is superfluous and could be "skipped"! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I see no necessity for the 1st of these, the external rupa. > Moreover, it is in principle unknowable, and thus pragmatically > ignorable." > > L: Kamma is in principle unknowable (unexperiencable). Should we ignore > it? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Kamma - that is, volition or volitional action - is quite knowable! But the complex web of kammic inheritance is rarely known except superficially. --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: "I interpret this [Bahiya Sutta] differently. When there is no > object-in-itself, there is also no subject-in-itself. (The converse is > true as well, a fact often ignored by Mahayanists when they say that > Theravadins only accept the emptiness of the "person" but not of > "things".) > > L: Where does it say there is no object or subject? Consciousness can be > a subject without being mistaken for a self. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I never said there is no object or subject. I chose my words carefully. ------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only > the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the > sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, > there is no you in terms of that." > > ======================= With metta, Howard P.S. It's good that we clarify our perspectives on this, Larry. But there also is no necessity that we persuade the other (or even ourself) of the correctness of our position. I think it's okay to disagree, and very much okay to be unsure. :-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25329 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/15/03 4:06:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Even whilst fleeing, there can be awareness. This would be one’s daily > life at the time, just like escaping bullets may be daily life for the > soldier as I see it, Howard. In the satipatthana sutta and commentary we > were reading about sati at all times - including whilst getting dressed > and going to the toilet. To exclude particular times or occasions or to > think that satipatthana would interfere in someway, underestimates the > power of sati imho and may be a condition for it not to arise. Anytime, > anyplace. Even whilst being attacked by a tiger;-) The development of > satipatthana doesn’t mean one is less likely to flee the burning house, > passing bullets or ferocious tigers. Understanding isn’t a matter of > thinking or paying particular attention, possibly with an idea of self, or > labelling certain states and focussing on them. > .... > ======================== My point pertained to the applying of attention, to how it is applied and to what. Of course mindfulness and insight can arise at *any* time. But the conscious directing of attention is another matter. Dhamma *practice* involv es conscious application and direction of the various faculties. I was talking of Dhamma *practice*, and not the fruits of Dhamma practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25330 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: FW: Co. to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 12 B Commentary to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, B series, 12 B Relevant sutta passage: ***** Commentary: addasaa kho aayasmaa saariputtoti bhagavati gate pacchaa gacchanto addasa. As to the words, the venerable Saariputta saw him, the meaning is that after the Blessed One had gone, the venerable Saariputta who came afterwards saw him. etassa kiraayasmato ekakassa viharato a~n~na.m vatta.m, bhagavataa saddhi.m viharato a~n~na.m. It is said that when the Venerable One was dwelling alone, his task was different from when he was together with the Blessed One yadaa hi dve aggasaavakaa ekaakino vasanti, When the two chief disciples stayed by themselves, tadaa paatova senaasana.m sammajjitvaa sariirapa.tijaggana.m katvaa they would in the early morning sweep their dwelling, tend to their bodily needs, samaapatti.m appetvaa sannisinnaa attano cittaruciyaa bhikkhaacaara.m gacchanti. sit in quiet while applying themselves to attainment concentration, and then they would, as they were inclined to, go on their alms round. bhagavataa saddhi.m viharantaa pana theraa eva.m na karonti. However, when they were together with the Blessed One they would not act in that way. tadaa hi bhagavaa bhikkhusa"nghaparivaaro pa.thama.m bhikkhaacaara.m gacchati. Then the Blessed One, surrounded by the monks, would go on almsround first. tasmi.m gate thero attano senaasanaa nikkhamitvaa -- When the Buddha had gone, the venerable Sariputta would leave his lodging and consider: ``bahuuna.m vasana.t.thaane naama sabbeva paasaadika.m kaatu.m sakkonti vaa, na vaa sakkontii''ti ³When there are many monks in a dwelling place, not all of them may be able to make it agreeable.² tattha tattha gantvaa asamma.t.tha.m .thaana.m sammajjati. He would go around and sweep the places that had not been swept. sace kacavaro acha.d.dito hoti, ta.m cha.d.deti. When there was rubbish that was not thrown away, he threw it away. paaniiya.t.thapetabba.t.thaanamhi paaniiyakuu.te asati paaniiyagha.ta.m .thapeti. When there was no drinking water in the place where it should be set out, he placed a pot with drinking water. gilaanaana.m santika.m gantvaa, He went to visit the sick and asked: ``aavuso, tumhaaka.m ki.m aaharaami, ki.m vo icchitabba''nti? pucchati. "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you wish?" ****** English: As to the words, the venerable Saariputta saw him, the meaning is that after the Blessed One had gone, the venerable Saariputta who came afterwards saw him. It is said that when the Venerable One was dwelling alone, his task was different from when he was together with the Blessed One. When the two chief disciples stayed by themselves, they would in the early morning sweep their dwelling, tend to their bodily needs, sit in quiet while applying themselves to attainment concentration, and then they would, as they were inclined to, go on their alms round. However, when they were together with the Blessed One they would not act in that way. Then the Blessed One, surrounded by the monks, would go on almsround first. When the Buddha had gone, the venerable Sariputta would leave his lodging and consider: ³When there are many monks in a dwelling place, not all of them may be able to make it agreeable.² He would go around and sweep the places that had not been swept. When there was rubbish that was not thrown away, he threw it away. When there was no drinking water in the place where it should be set out, he placed a pot with drinking water. He went to visit the sick and asked: "Friend, what shall I bring you, what do you wish?" ******** 25331 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma patha Dear Ken H, op 12-09-2003 01:38 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: the past deeds of the ariyan don't need > to magically disappear, their results can simply fail to > come to fruition. (because of other, overriding > conditions) N: In the case of ariyans, kamma can produce undesirable vipaka, but not anymore vipaka in the form of an unhappy rebirth. For the arahat: no more rebirth at all. > ---------------- K: > Kamma-patha is mental > Yes, I tend to forget that. And they actually include > six mental actions don't they. I more or less understand > how those six differ from thought (vitakka), but I'd find > it hard to explain. N: Kamma is intention and thus it is mental, it can be accumulated. However, they are committed through body, speech or mind. Ten akusala kammas. > ----------------- Ken: << it is the cetasika which is cetana, intention. > Thanks for pointing that out. Is it possible to be more > specific? For example, can it be said that killing, > slandering, rude speech and ill-will are cetana with dosa > as root condition? (And that their opposites are cetana > with adosa?) N: Slandering can also be committed by lobha: one wants to be popular. The opposites, avoiding these. We cannot say just with adosa, when there is adosa there has to be also alobha. K: Are stealing, foolish babble and covetousness cetana with > lobha? (And are their opposites cetana with alobha?) N: Stealing, foolish babble can be done with dosa: you like to harm the other person. K: Are sexual misconduct, lying and evil views cetana with > lobha and wrong view? N: We have to differentiate: lying can also be with dosa, and the kamma patha which is wrong view are specific kinds of wrong view (denying the workings of kamma, etc.). K: I'm getting ahead of myself -- too much theorising. But > it's tempting to think of the absolute opposite of these > last three as; living in conformity with the rules of Vinaya, > teaching Dhamma and attaining enlightenment :-) N: The rules of Vinaya are for the monks. My next Dhamma Issue I translate mentions different degrees of sexual ethics. The main point of this Issue is about incest. At first I found it so obvious, it is completely wrong, why make it a dhamma point. But obviously some people give a wrong interpretation of Vinaya and this happened indeed. So I just translated it. K: Can the 20 > kamma-pathas be specifically identified among the 89 > cittas? If so, then they must be paramattha dhammas but > if not, then they would seem to be concepts. (The same > question applies to the precepts and the fetters.) N: They are not concepts, think of kamma as cetana cetasika. Terms are used to describe different degrees and aspects of cetana. Kamma and vipaka are realities. Fetters are realities, a group of defilements, as real as anything. Precepts are advices for good conduct. These are expressed by means of terms explaining about realities. We need words so that we can have understanding. > K: A > quick look shows me that some people have been taking my > name in vain! I'd better straighten them out :-) N: :-) I had many a good laugh about this. Nina. 25332 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Larry, op 15-09-2003 02:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I'm still not sure about this one: > N: "Change-of lineage is not lokuttara citta, although it has nibbaana > as object, it just adverts to the Path and it is immediately succeeded > by the lokuttara citta which is path-consciousness." N: Magga-citta realizes nibbaana and eradicates defilements. Gotrabhuu, change-of-lineage: it does not eradicate, it is the last citta of the sense-sphere before a citta of another plane of citta arises during that process (in samatha: the last citta before jhanacitta arises). L:If we are going > too fast, let me know and I will stop for a while. N: I don't think so. Since the Tiika is so much I cannot translate all anyway. But Tiika to Vis 14 is literally like Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 157. Nina. 25333 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:06am Subject: Tiika, Vis 8, continuation three. Tiika, Vis 8, continuation three. ***** Tiika 8 (continuation three). Relevant passages: Vis. 8, section 9 (and Vis 16-18): as skill in improvement, detriment and means. Vis 8, section 10 (and Vis 18): As interpreting the internal, and so on. Tiika: aaye va.d.dhiya.m kosalla.m aayakosalla.m, apaaye ava.d.dhiya.m kosalla.m apaayakosalla.m, Skill in improvement is skill in increase with regard to what is profitable, and skill in detriment is skill in decrease with regard to what is unprofitable. upaaye tassa tassa atthassa nibbattikaara.ne kosalla.m upaayakosallanti The words skill in means are used, namely, skill with regard to the means that are the cause of production of such or such benefit. * visu.m visu.m kosallapada.m sambandhitabba.m. The word kosalla, skill, should be connected severally. ajjhatta.m abhiniveso pa.tipajjana.m etissaati ajjhattaabhinivesaa. Interpreting ** the internal is thus its procedure. eva.m bahiddhaabhinivesaa, ubhayaabhinivesaa ca veditabbaa. Evenso interpreting the external and the interpreting of both should be understood. **** English: Skill in improvement is skill in increase with regard to what is profitable, and skill in detriment is skill in decrease with regard to what is unprofitable. The words skill in means are used, namely, skill with regard to the means that are the cause of production of such or such benefit. * The word kosalla, skill, should be connected severally. Interpreting ** the internal is thus its procedure. Evenso interpreting the external, and the interpreting of both should be understood. _______ * skill, kosalla is explained further on, it refers to pa~n~naa which brings the four right efforts to fulfilment. ** abhinivesa, adherence or interpretation is explained in Vis. XIV, 19, and in the footnote. It can be right or wrong interprettaion. Here it is with reference to understanding: interprettaion in accordance with reality as confirmed by experience. ***** (this text should be placed before: Tiika of Vis XIV, 15. I skip Tiika 9, 10. Tiika has nothing on Vis. 11-14, and shall go on with Tiika 14, first and third section. After this Tiika of Vis XIV, 15, which I translated already, should be placed. Nina. 25334 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Larry, Kamma produces the senses and the heartbase (these are all rupas) throughout our life. Eyesense is base as well as doorway for seeing. Eyesense is not doorway when there is no seeing, but it still arises and falls away all the time. Nina. op 15-09-2003 06:42 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I didn't say the sense base is permanent. I was understanding it as a > sense organ. Ken has this same idea also that the sense base only arises > with the rupa sensation. Maybe I'm wrong. Can anyone tell us if this is > what abhidhamma really says??? 25335 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi Nina, What I don't understand is why gotrabuu citta (change-of-lineage consciousness) can have nibbaana as object but not be lokuttara. The reason for this is because it "adverts to the Path". What's the Path? I understand this is a transitional state from being a worldling to an ariyan or a lower level ariyan to a higher level ariyan. Does it mean that nibbaana is seen (understood?) but the defilements haven't dropped away yet? Larry 25336 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Hi Nina, This expanation (below) suits me. Am I correct in thinking there is a material rupa that impinges on (touches) the sensitive matter of the sense base and that sensitive matter translates that touch into a sensation that interrupts the bhavanga stream? Also, can we say there are probably many many impingements that don't get translated into sensations that interrupt the bhavanga? If so, why? What determines what makes it to the bhavanga? Further, does abhidhamma speculate how long lived the material rupa is? Larry Nina: "Hi Larry, Kamma produces the senses and the heartbase (these are all rupas) throughout our life. Eyesense is base as well as doorway for seeing. Eyesense is not doorway when there is no seeing, but it still arises and falls away all the time." 25337 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, cinta Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/03 7:05:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > What I don't understand is why gotrabuu citta (change-of-lineage > consciousness) can have nibbaana as object but not be lokuttara. The > reason for this is because it "adverts to the Path". What's the Path? > ======================== Good question! I would love to know precise definitions of several things that I have not yet seen defined anywhere. Among these are "the path", "path consciousness", and "fruition consciousness", and the difference between the last two. Exactly what are thesethree things - what are their natures .. precisely, and what category do they fall under? They are not nibbana or rupas, so they must either be cittas or cetasikas. I presume the latter two are cittas, perhaps all three. I've read that path and fruition consciousness are cittas which take nibbana as object, a notion which might be found strange, making nibbana into an object, unless, as I believe, nibbana is simply the absence of dukkha or the absence of defilements, in which case it is not so strange to take it as an object, because, in general it is not odd to be aware of absences. But, be that as it may, what else is there to say about these cittas, and how do they differ? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25338 From: Date: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion In a message dated 9/15/2003 1:33:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > At moments when conceit arises, there is therefore ignorance and both this > ignorance and conceit are only eradicated by the arahant. However, there > is no wrong view or wrong delusion about there being any self at moments > of conceit at any time. Wrong view and conceit don’t arise together. Also, > as wrong view and delusions about a self existing are eradicated by the > sotapanna, there is no view of self after this. > > Toby was referring to the references to ‘asmi maana’ (‘I am’ conceit) in > the sutta. I think it’s important to understand the nature of conceit > which involves comparing ‘self’ with ‘others’ but without any belief of > self. As you suggest, if there’s any idea of self existing, then > personality view is present. Even arahants have metta for ‘others’ - > obviously without any view that people actually exist. I thought it was an > excellent sutta to discuss as it can easily be misunderstood. Perhaps > another example of a little abhidhamma being of assistance?? > Hi Sarah I suspected you might have been mis-quoted as it turned out. A couple of things in these paragraphs caught my eye though. Let's just take one. Now, putting aside the Abhidhamma plug... (LOL) I suspect that Arahats: rather than being without any view that people actually exist; I suspect rather, that arahats have the correct view as to how they exist (what they are.) I think they see them as "unfolding causal occurrences" that are bewildered and trapped in an interactive (pain generating) system. With this "correct view," how could arahats not have compassion (or friendliness)? :) This is perhaps what you meant anyway. TG 25339 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali and Sanskrit Dear Nina, (Jim, Mike & All). I read the posts, references and qus you raised with interest. It’s all rather over my head, but I meant to make one or two brief comments: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > On Pali list we had the issue whether it is an offence for a monk to use > language other than Pali when explaining the Dhamma. There was a Vinaya > text, Vinaya II.139 = Culavagga V.33.1. ..... Of course I would always assume Buddhaghosa’s commentary on any text to be correct;-) I think the passages Jim and I have been discussing from Sammohavinodani also give indications about the reasons for the transmission of the teachings via the Sangha in correct Pali. Perhaps the grammar texts by Mahakaccayana and the wisdom that may be developed also support this? Certainly, I know the details in the Vinaya are very precise in this regard. .... > Nina: Now, I have heard in Thailand that it is an offense for a monk to > use > non pali terms for dhamma. I do not know whether the Vinaya has other > texts > about this. I mentioned that Ven. Nyanatiloka uses: karma, nirvana and > was > wondering about this. .... I don’t know. Obviously we have to consider the audience. Kom, Jon and I have been discussing whether we should use the full Velthius spelling in the simple Pali glossary in the files, but we have to consider what will be most helpful and user-friendly for newcomers who are using it too. .... > Is it perhaps in the Peg sutta, I could not find this one. Rob K and > Sarah > quoted this, it is about the decline of the teachings, preferring > poetical > language to the scriptures. ..... Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7 p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation "In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata --deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness --are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works --the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric,the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.” .... I’m not sure if this relates to the actual use of Pali, unless you say the words of the Buddha are only in Pali? .... > What is even more: we read in a Siam Society Journal (did not keep it, > is it > on line now?) that twice in history a group of Thai monks went to Sri > Lanka > to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the rituals > was > not correct in Thailand. I would not know how to find out the correct > pronunciation, is it possible to know? I corresponded with Rob K about > this > long ago. The late Phra Dhammadharo was also reordained in Sri Lanka for > this reason. It may seem too puritan, but I think there must be reasons > behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having known him > as > very conscientious. Maybe Jonothan knows more. It is quite a step to be > reordained. > I think it all stems from true concern to keep the teachings intact > after > they were rehearsed at the three Councils. Perhaps there is more in the > Co > to the Vinaya. > I hope one of you can help me with more info. .... With regard to ordination ceremonies, I know the details are very precise. Phra Dhammadharo used to talk at length on this subject to us and even more with Jonothan. I think it’s quite a ‘minefield’ when one looks closely and the cracks in the systems are evident. I think there are two main areas that he was particularly concerned about: one related to pronunciation issues and for him, the general mispronunciation of Pali in Thailand (just as Jim explained) . This, as he understood it, invalidated ordination ceremonies. The second area (which Jon remembers, but I don’t) related to the validity of the ordination ceremony in other regards, including the Siimaa (the place where the ordination happens). For example, there are rules concerning the contact or connection with the Sima to the world outside its boundary. Telephone lines or electricity lines might be infringements, for example. I think there’s a lot more. B.Bodhi also made a passing reference to ordination difficulties in Sri Lanka these days too. As I said, I think it could be a minefield to investigate in depth. What I paricularly remember was how on several occasions when Phra Dhammadharo was explaining some of these details, Khun Sujin just remained silent. When I commented on this to her afterwards, she just stressed that there could be satipatthana anytime, anyplace and in any lifestyle. Sorry not to be of more help. Metta, Sarah ==== 25340 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 8 Dear Nina, Larry & Jim, (Mike, Gayan), You were adding more about the patisambhidas (discriminations). --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry, > While in India we had such an interesting discussion with A. Supee about > these. He was explainig how the Buddha knew the way to express all > details > of Dhamma in perfect and clear language. Expression in language is also > a > discriminative panna and the Buddha had the highest degree of it. > Sariputta > had it less, but was still very apt. The other great disciples had it in > a > lesser degree. .... Jim and I were wondering about the reference to ‘all ariyans’ in the Sammohavinodani. I think this will be clarified in VismX1V 21-32 which gives a lot of helpful detail. in X1V 27, we read how the four discriminations ‘can be placed in the two categories: the plane of the trainer and the plane of the non-trainer.’ Only the chief disciples and great disciples fall into the latter. We then read of further categories within these. The Katthavatthu and commentary (ch V,v)also refer to this ‘knowledge of an Ariyan’. In the Appendix (p381) in the PTS Katthavatthu transl, there is a discussion on ‘patisambhiida and abhisamaya’(analysis and penetration) with reference to the comy to DN and also comments by Ledi Sayadaw. References to ‘all Ariyans’ in this regard, seem to refer to insight and attainement as in the line I quoted and was puzzled by: “Ariyasavako no patisambhidappato nama natthi.” (There is no noble disciple who has not reached the Discriminations). .... > The fourth one: knowledge of the first three: the Buddha knew all > details of > all dhammas, he knew cause and effect.See Dispeller of Delusion, II, Ch > 15. > Meaning, attho: the fruit of a cause. and dhamma in the sense of hetu, > cause. See my meanings of Dhamma, ..... I found the details you gave very helpful, Nina. Also when we read the details in these next sections in Vism, I think it’s very clear that details about realities are being referred to in all the Patisambhidas and we see the development (32) is by the prification of views, insights etc into aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, D.O,etc. So even if we read words like’analysis’, I understand these to be incredibly high levels of penetrative wisdom. More on language at (25): “One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words, ‘phasso, vedanaa’, etc, that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing ‘phassaa, vedano’ etc, he knows that that is not the individual-essence language.” I’d better be more careful with my spelling;-) (Sorry, to jump ahead, Larry, but I was looking at your post and footnote on X1V,8), getting confused by ‘analysis’ and ‘synthesis’). As Nina has said, according to the texts we would not expect to find arahants with patisambhidas (discriminative/analytical knowledges) today! I’ll be glad if anyone corrects any errors as I this is a very difficult subject for me to even get a tiny theoretical handle on. Metta, Sarah p.s Mike & Gayan, I also appreciated your quote and comments about chanting and Pali - as you said, there were concerns about the ways of transmission of the teachings even in the Buddha’s life-time. ========================== I repost the passage: > of > the Abhidhamma which deals with the four analytic insights, > patisambhidaa: > 1. insight of attha *, result (of a cause). > 2. insight of dhamma: condition or cause. > 3. insight of nirutti, of the language corresponding to reality, > expressing > attha and dhamma. > 4. insight of patibhaana: of illumination, confidence of speech. The > knowledge of the three aboive mentioned knowledges in all details. > (See dict of Ven. Nyanatiloka). > Arahats with the highest distinction were endowed with the four > patisambhidas. There are different degrees of them. The Buddha1s chief > disciples did not have them in the same degree of the Buddha, the other > arahats had them in a lesser degree than the chief disciples. > The Vibhanga states according to the knowledge of attha and knowledge of > dhamma with regard to the four Truths: > (attha); knowledge of the cause of suffering is analytical knowledge of > origin (dhamma); knowledge of the cessation of suffering is analytical > knowledge of consequence; knowledge of the way leading to the cessation > of > suffering is analytical knowledge of origin...> 25341 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Issues of Dhamma, no 10. Three meanings of Satipatthana Dear Nina, Howard, Jon, Jim, RobertK, Kom & All, > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > Three Meanings of Satipatthåna. > > > > Issue of Analysis: Does satipatthåna classified as: ‘the teacher’s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise’ mean the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went? Conclusion regarding the analysis of this issue: ‘The teacher’s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise’ means indeed the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went.< > ..... > Sarah: > I’ve read and heard explanations about the three meanings of satipatthana before but I think this possibly clarifies better a discussion some of us had a long time back about a phrase Howard raised in a sutta along the lines of the eightfold path leading to satipatthana. It was most puzzling and we all looked at the Pali, inc. Jim I think. < .... Sarah: I’ve found it now. It was the Satipatthana-vibhanga Sutta which was being discussed at length. There were many messages on it from many people, but I’ll just select parts below from one message of Jim’s which gives the Pali of the phrase under discussion and more details by Jon . http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9398.html If we take the third meaning of satipatthana above, referring to ‘the teacher’s threefold surpassing of delight and aversion with regard to his disciples who practise’ meaning ‘the path by which the Buddha and his disciples went’, perhaps it now makes sense. Any comments? Metta, Sarah ====== Jim wrote: >The Pali phrase is "satipa.t.thaanabhaavanaagaaminii pa.tipadaa". It seems to me that "the path of practice" is either a translation of "pa.tipadaa"(the way) or "-gaaminii pa.tipadaa" (the way leading to). It is also worth noting that the Pali text takes satipa.t.thaana to be in the singular(satipa.t.thaana.m) which B. Bodhi translates as "the establishment of mindfulness" while Thanissaro Bhikkhu has "the frames of reference" (plural). ***** Jon wrote: > I refer to the passage in the ATI translation that reads: "And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve,right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice to the development of the frames of reference." > > In the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation (CDB, Wisdom), this appears as: > "And what is the way leading to the development of the establishment of mindfulness? It is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, Right View . Right Concentration. This is called the way leading to the development of the > establishment of mindfulness." > > The rendering in the CDB version is fairly standard stuff. I am wondering > where the words "path of practice" in the ATI translation come from. Do > you have any thoughts on this? Can anybody help us with the Pali here? ***** From Nina’s recent message "Issues of Dhamma, no 10': > >”This, monks, is the third arousing of mindfulness that the ariyan > practises and, practising it, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to > instruct a group. When it is said: ‘There are three arousings of > mindfulness each of which an ariya disciple practises and, practising > which, is an ariyan who is a teacher fit to instruct a group,...’” > ***** > > Summarizing, satipatthåna which is the kind of ‘the Master’s threefold > surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the > entry > of his disciples [on the way of practice]’, has the following meaning: > it > is the way along which the Buddha and his >disciples went. > ***** 25342 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi TG, It’s good to be discussing these details with you;-) --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I suspected you might have been mis-quoted as it turned out. ... It was a paraphrase in Toby’s own words, I think;-) Howard might accuse me of just having done the same with his comments;-) ... A couple > of > things in these paragraphs caught my eye though. Let's just take one. > Now, > putting aside the Abhidhamma plug... (LOL) .... Oh no - my security blanket .... > I suspect that Arahats: rather than being without any view that people > actually exist; I suspect rather, that arahats have the correct view as > to how they > exist (what they are.) ..... I’d say that when sakkaya ditthi (personality view) has been eradicated, there is no more view of any kind that ‘people actually exist’. .... >I think they see them as "unfolding causal > occurrences" that are bewildered and trapped in an interactive (pain > generating) system. .... I think they would see this description as a set of concepts with little bearing on the namas and rupas which are the only phenomena which actually exist;-) .... > With this "correct view," how could arahats not have compassion (or > friendliness)? :) > > This is perhaps what you meant anyway. ..... Not really :-) Another paraphrase gone astray??? I know it’s hard to understand how with the full appreciation that what we take for people and things are only namas and rupas that these same ‘people and things’ can be the objects of mana, metta and even of panna, but not of satipatthana. This relates to the discussions Howard, Toby and I have been having too. The point is that concepts, including people, are still objects of cittas (consciousness) for ariyans with no more wrong view, just as they are for us now. The difference is that there is no illusion that these concepts represent realities in anyway. Although I agree that namas and rupas are conditioned or ‘causal’, I’m not sure they can be referred to as ‘occurrences’. Perhaps you’d clarify. Does ‘unfolding’ refer to ‘impermanent’ or ‘changing’? Sorry to be so paticular. (It must be the abhidhamma which has crept in....LOL ...can’t leave home without it, but then I read abhidhamma in the suttas too;-)). Metta, Sarah ====== 25343 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bahiya7 - *Nori* - simple living (reply for Sarah) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > My point pertained to the applying of attention, to how it is > applied > and to what. Of course mindfulness and insight can arise at *any* time. > But > the conscious directing of attention is another matter. .... I agree with you here, Howard. In your comments to Icaro, I think you referred to Dhamma practice and perhaps we differ in how this is defined. For me, I think of bhavana (development) or pa.tipatti (practice) as opposed to pariyatti (theoretical knowledge), i.e mindfulness and insight as opposed to ‘conscious directing of attention’. ..... >Dhamma *practice* involves conscious application and direction of the various faculties. I was talking of Dhamma *practice*, and not the fruits of Dhamma practice. .... In this regard, I don’t see ‘practice’ even at the beginning at the first moments of satipatthana and the fruits or development of more advanced practice as being any different. In other words, I don’t see either as involving ‘conscious application and direction of the various faculties’. I think we’ve been down this road a few times and I think your discussion with Jon will also be relevant when it gathers pace;-). I also think you made a very wise comment here to Larry which is helpful for us all: H: “P.S. It's good that we clarify our perspectives on this, Larry. But there also is no necessity that we persuade the other (or even ourself) of the correctness of our position. I think it's okay to disagree, and very much okay to be unsure. :-)” We’re not here to persuade or be ‘right’, but merely to share our understanding --and confusion too -- to date as I see it. Tomorrow it may be different, and that’s fine too. There are mind-states and other realities to be known at all these times as well. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, you’ve been making many good points about rupas, the Bahiya sutta and others I can’t quickly recall --i.e I’ve agreed with them;-) ====================================== 25344 From: jaranoh Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:53am Subject: Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7 Q: Next question, pannatti is both dhammaarama.na and dhammadhaatu. Ajahn Supee what is the difference. How do they differ? ASupee: Dhamma-dhaatu refers to dhamma which must have its own characteristics known through the mind-door, but dhammaaraama.na refers to all object that is known through the mind-door which includes pannati. Dhamma-dhaatu include citta 89, cetasika 52, ruupa 21 (sukhuma-ruupa 16 + pasaada-ruupa 5), and nibbana, and dhammaa-ramana, above mentioned and pannatti. Pannatti refers to summitti-dhamma, not reality; it does not have characteristics that can be known by sati and panna, but it is known to citta [and cetasika]. Q: Yes. This is why A. Sujin says that sati and panna often are not sharp enough to be ware of the reality, but always stuck at the pannatti. [panna is always sharp, but it just seldom arises.] ASujin: Sacca ~na.na understands correctly, and it knows that this is at the moment of thinking. If citta does not think, there is no story. This moment, there is citta whatever it is thinking about, if this is no thinking, there will be no story. Pannatti 'exists' only when citta thinks, but we never know that there was not a 'thing' if we don't think about it. .. but it appears as if it is real, doesn't it? Q: True. ASujin: But if citta does not think about it, will there be the thing? Q: ..no. ASujin: So it not real? Q: No, it's not. When we are asleep, there is no thinking, and we know no story and things. Only when we are awake do things exist because we think. ASujin: Yes. Until the rise of udayabbaya~na.na, the [characteristics of] thinking must be known with increasingly keener panna, discerning the dhamma. Because there is always thinking between moments of dhamma arising and falling way, the characteristics of dhamma never appear. Citta always thinks, be it long or short. Compared to seeing, thinking is very long, and arise often. Panna has to be keener and keener to be ware of thinking and discern dhamma. Not until the level of ~nata parinna, which is after naama-ruupa-paricheda~na.na, does panna fully penetrate the thinking. Not until that level is sati fully aware of thinking. Then sati and panna will be aware and understand the characteristics of thinking--which is naama and is not our Self. 25345 From: Sarah Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] question Hi Frank M, --- Frank wrote: > > > I recently started reading "Abhidhamma in Daily life" (1997 ... You already received a couple of good answers to yr qus, but let us know if you have more or if they don't satisfy you;-) Of course, we're all glad you've joined us here and are coming straight in with these qus. Welcome to DSG! Can I persuade you to tell us a little about yourself, such as where you live and how you come to be reading this book of Nina's? Pls let us know if you have any other comments or qus or need any tips on searching topics in the archives etc. As a reminder to everyone, RobM has posted word files of the entire tidied up archives (almost to date) in the files for anyone who wishes to download, use these for a search or read through 'like a novel' on an aeroplane: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Most the posts are also backed up at this site: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ With metta, Sarah p.s Somewhere, we have another Frank taking a loooong lurk spell, so hope you don't mind 'M' added to your name. ======== 25346 From: connie Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:02am Subject: Re: Pali and Sanskrit Dear Pali glossary revisers, .... Sarah: I don’t know. Obviously we have to consider the audience. Kom, Jon and I have been discussing whether we should use the full Velthius spelling in the simple Pali glossary in the files, but we have to consider what will be most helpful and user-friendly for newcomers who are using it too. .... If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I think seeing both spellings would be useful. Kinda like seeing an acceptable and preferred spelling in an English dictionary. peace, connie 25347 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:01am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 14 Tiika Vis. 14 Relevant text Visuddhimagga 14: 14. tikesu pa.thamattike parato assutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa attano cintaavasena nipphannattaa cintaamayaa. parato sutvaa pa.tiladdhapa~n~naa sutavasena nipphannattaa sutamayaa. yathaa tathaa vaa bhaavanaavasena nipphannaa appanaappattaa pa~n~naa bhaavanaamayaa. As regards the triads, understanding acquired without hearing from another is that "consisting in what is reasoned" because it is produced by one's own reasoning. Understanding acquired by hearing from another is that "consisting in what is heard", because it is produced by hearing. Understanding that has reached absorption, having been somehow produced by (meditative) development, is that "consisting in development". Tiika 14 (first part): 14. attano cintaavasenaati tassa tassa anavajjassa atthassa saadhane paropadesena vinaa attano upaayacintaavaseneva. As to the words, by one¹s own reasoning, this means: without someone else¹s teaching, by one¹s own thinking of the means, which results in such and such profitable benefit. sutavasenaati yathaasutassa paropadesassa vasena. As to the words, because of hearing, this means: because of the instruction of someone else as it is heard. yathaa tathaa vaati parato upadesa.m sutvaa vaa asutvaa vaa sayameva bhaavana.m anuyu~njantassa. As to the words, in whatever way, this means, of someone who pursues development by himself, no matter whether he has heard an instruction by someone else or not. ``appanaappattaa''ti ida.m sikhaappattabhaavanaamaya.m dassetu.m vutta.m, na pana ``appanaappattaava bhaavanaamayaa''ti. ........ (skipped) English: As to the words, by one¹s own reasoning, this means: without someone else¹s teaching, by one¹s own thinking of the means, which results in such and such profitable benefit. As to the words, because of hearing, this means: because of the instruction of someone else as it is heard. As to the words, in whatever way, this means, of someone who pursues development by himself, no matter whether he has heard an instruction by someone else or not. Nina. 25348 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Dear Howard and Larry, Larry writes: >> What I don't understand is why gotrabuu citta (change-of-lineage >> consciousness) can have nibbaana as object but not be lokuttara. The >> reason for this is because it "adverts to the Path". What's the Path? N: gotrabhuu: Change of lineage: gotta is clan. That person will no longer be an ordinary person, but become of the lineage of the ariyans. The ariyan who attains a higher stage of enlightenment has instead of gotrabhuu: vodaana, meaning purification. (See also Abhidhammatta Sangaha, Ven. Narada's notes) Yes, not lokuttara and yet having nibbana as object. It is only in a flash (an infinitesimally short moment) before the path-consciousness arises. More than a year ago we discussed it (with Num?) I was not sure about this. This came out: also after the process of enlightenment when the cittas are of the sensesphere nibbana can be the object. That person reviews the Path, nibbana, etc. Thus, at that moment there is no thinking of a concept of nibbaana, but nibbaana that was just experienced before is reviewed. Howard: I would love to know precise definitions of "the path", > "path consciousness", and "fruition consciousness", and the difference between > the last two. Exactly what are these three things - what are their natures .. > precisely, and what category do they fall under? They are not nibbana or > rupas, > so they must either be cittas or cetasikas. N: Path, magga, can refer to several things, it is difficult and we have to look at the context. The eightfold Path that is to be developed: the pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. The mundane Path can be fivefold or sixfold, depending on whether one of the three factors that are sila arise or not. (See Dhamma Issue) Path-consciousness, magga-citta, this is the lokuttara magga-citta that arises, experiences nibbaana and eradicates defilements. All eight path-factors accompany this citta. The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This never happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. There are four stages of enlightenment, as you know, thus there are eight types of lokuttara cittas, two types for each stage. These types are, for those who attain enlightenment with jhanafactors of the five stages of jhana, multiplied accordingly. Thus, there can be forty types of lokuttara cittas. H: I've read that path and fruition consciousness are > cittas > which take nibbana as object, a notion which might be found strange, making > nibbana into an object N: During the stages of insight there is a gradual turning away from conditioned realities, one sees more and more the disadvantages of them. When panna is ripe there are conditions for the experience of the unconditioned element. Nina. 25349 From: Frank Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Sarah, Nina, Ken H, > Can I persuade you to tell us a little about yourself, such as where you live and how you come to be reading this book of Nina's? > I'm Belgian and for 10 years I have been interested mainly in practice rather than theory. But one informs the other, of course. Hence my growing interest in working on a more firm basis for "right understanding". Although I've read most of the Suttas (with some gaps in the Anguttara and Khuddaka Nikaya), a quick glance at some Abhidhamma works made me realize I need some serious preparation before delving into that. So "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" – which has an excellent practical angle – seemed like the best place to start. I have to thank Ken H and Nina for their kind replies, but something still puzzles me about the nature of cetasikas. For example, suppose I eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the object and not that which experiences an object. But the object of what? Of the citta which it assists? How can that be, since – as Nina mentioned in her reply -- "citta and cetasikas experience the same object" ? I probably need to read some more to figure this one out, but if there's something basic here that I've missed or overlooked, do let me know. Anyway, thanks for your interest. Frank M 25350 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Sarah, As I understand it: Personality view is not the view that "people actually exist". However, both the views "people actually exist" and "people actually don't exist" are speculative views, just like the views "there is self" and "there is no self." In a negative term, both metaphysical views or assertions on existence are to be abandoned. Why are they to be abandoned? Because both lead to the entanglement of views, to agitation, not to calm and dispassion. What are personality views? They are views identifying oneself with the conditioned, or delineation of what one is in terms of the conditioned, such as the five aggregates or six sense bases. A variety of personality views are formulated or listed in Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 Samanupassana Sutta Assumptions http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi TG, [snip] 25351 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi, Nina - Thank you for this detailed reply. There are a couple aspects of this matter which I would like to pursue a bit further. (I will be doing a fair amount of snipping.) In a message dated 9/16/03 1:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard and Larry, > > Howard: I would love to know precise definitions of "the path", > >"path consciousness", and "fruition consciousness", and the difference > between > >the last two. Exactly what are these three things - what are their natures > .. > >precisely, and what category do they fall under? They are not nibbana or > >rupas, > >so they must either be cittas or cetasikas. > N: Path, magga, can refer to several things, it is difficult and we have to > look at the context. The eightfold Path that is to be developed: the > pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking > the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. I guess one might say this is the "conventional path". -------------------------------------------- > The mundane Path can be fivefold or sixfold, depending on whether one of > the > three factors that are sila arise or not. (See Dhamma Issue) > ------------------------------------------- Howard: The sila factors strike me precisely as the *most* conventional! (More about that later.) ------------------------------------------- > Path-consciousness, magga-citta, this is the lokuttara magga-citta that > arises, experiences nibbaana and eradicates defilements. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Clear. ------------------------------------------- All eight> > path-factors accompany this citta. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Not so clear - at least not to me. On the face of it, and I don't know how else to properly understand these - right speech, right action and right livelihood strike me not as cetasikas, but as conventional activities that are both continuing and repeating. The notion of these occuring as factors of a mind-moment makes no sense to me. Certainly the *inclination* to such activities may occur, but the *inclination* to right livelihood, for example, is not the same as right livelihood. ---------------------------------------------- The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that> > is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. > Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the > magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This never > happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness > experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that > stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: My question here is twofold: 1) Does this say that fruition consciousness has multiple objects? It sounds that way, but, of course, cannot be so. 2) How does one experience now-nonexistent defilements? Is it the memory of them that is experienced, or the knowledge of the fact of their having ceased? ------------------------------------------------ ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25352 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi Nina, Can it happen that gotrabu consciousness directly understands nibbana but the defilements fail to permanently cease, lokuttara doesn't arise, and the mundane, defiled state resumes? Larry 25353 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:43pm Subject: Vism. XIV, 16, 17, 18 "The Path of Purification" ch. XIV [How many kinds of understanding are there?] 16. 9. In the third triad, it is increase that is called "improvement". That is twofold as the elimination of harm and the arousing of good. Skill in improvement is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in improvement? When a man brings these things to mind both unarisen unprofitable things do not arise and arisen unprofitable things are abandoned in him; or when he brings these things to mind [440] both unarisen profitable things arise and arisen profitable things advance to growth, increase, development, and perfection in him. Whatever here is understanding, act of understanding ... [for words elided see Dhs. 16] ... non-delusion, investigation of states, right view, is called skill in improvement' (Vbh. 325-26). 17. Non-increase is what is called detriment. That also is twofold as the diminution of good and the arousing of harm. Skill in detriment is skill in these, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is skill in detriment? When a man brings these things to mind, both unarisen profitable things do not arise ... ' (Vbh. 326) and so on. 18. But in either of these cases any skill in means to cause the production of such and such things, which skill occurs at that moment and is aroused on that occasion, is what is called "skill in means", according as it is said: 'And all understanding of means thereto is "skill in means"' (Vbh. 326). So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means. 25354 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi, Frank - In a message dated 9/16/03 1:52:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankmatton@y... writes: > For example, suppose > I eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying > vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience > of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the > object and not that which experiences an object. But the object of > what? Of the citta which it assists? How can that be, since – as Nina > mentioned in her reply -- "citta and cetasikas experience the same > object" ? > ========================== It seems to me that the pleasantness that is the current object of a citta is not exactly the cetasika of pleasantness that was associated with the prior ice-cream taste, but is a (fresh) memory of same, and, with regard to the current citta, this pleasantness-memory is not a cetasika at all, but is the object .. period. In fact, there may well be a different pleasantness occurring in the current mindstate with *this* being a cetasika, and not the object. (It seems a fair assumption that the experiencing of pleasantness is pleasant! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25355 From: Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 16, 17, 18 "So it is of three kinds as skill in improvement, in detriment, and in means." Hi Nina, Does kosalla (skill) mean "understanding" in this case, as in: understanding improvement, understanding ruin, and understanding means? Larry 25356 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:44pm Subject: Re: Supportive spiritual community of lay buddhists [Re: [dsg] Pali puzzles] Hi Sarah, > !!! Isn't pa.n.dicca derived from pa.n.dita meaning skilled or clever in > other contexts? Skilled in the sounds or letters? I think you're right in pa.n.dicca (Skt. paa.n.ditya) being derived from pa.n.dita. Not sure of the meaning though as it's one of those words one could spend a fair amount of time studying. I don't know, Jim, but > in light of what we're reading in the Vism and elsewhere, how can we talk > about the development of pa~n~naa leading to Nibbana without it being the > 'penetration of characteristics', of 'sabhaava' as opposed to the knowing > of concepts as in the skill in Pali letters? What are the characteristics, > the namas and rupas known as a result of learning the Pali alphabet. (I > don't mean any disrespect for the latter of course). The kind of pa~n~naa that is being developed in Vism is insight-knowledge, but there are other kinds too such as sutamayaa pa~n~naa that seems to me to have a connection with a deep understanding of Pali or the Buddha's language. I was also thinking of a comparison of the money-changer's knowledge of money with the expert's knowledge of Pali. I think I may have a very hard time trying to convince you, especially if you don't agree that the Pali language and the teachings presented in that language (concepts) can be a focus for pa~n~naa. It's also far from being clear to me when I think of how one would go about explaining the skilfulness of clever criminals in high places. > > > "Thus this Discrimination of Language comes to have sound as its > > object, > > > not a concept as its object." > > > > This is quite an interesting statement. Do you think, then, that the > > 'attha' and 'dhamma' of the first two discriminations refer to > > concepts ie. attha-pa~n~natti & naama-pa~n~natti, respectively? > .... > No, I don't understand any of the discriminations as referring to concepts > but to incredibly developed penetrative insight - fully understanding > causes, results and so on. I hasten to add, I know very little on this > subject. One of the five things in the explanation of 'attha' in the Discrimination of Meaning is the "meaning of what is spoken" (Dispeller, 1944). And similarly for 'dhamma' in the Discrimination of Law there is "what is spoken" (1945). Would you not consider these to be concepts? However, these only form part of the explanation of the two discriminations and I'm sure they would go well beyond concepts too. I think the translations 'meaning' and 'law' don't adequately give the full range of the applied meanings of 'attha' and 'dhamma' in these discriminations and should probably be best left untranslated. I think it's much better to study the teachings in the Buddha's own language. Recently, I've been thinking of translations as being counterfeits. They should never be taken as equivalents of the original. I never did put much faith in translations and I will probably never be a translator myself. It's a good thing that the Pali has been kept alive and well. Think of how much worse off we'd all be if there had been a dominant mindset that considered translations to be exact equivalents of the originals and the Pali had been discarded and obliterated many centuries ago. ..... > I can > > see how language can be perceived as sequences of sounds devoid of any > > meaning or names. Often when I'm reciting Pali to myself I just like > > to listen to or feel the muscular articulations of the sounds being > > uttered without any attempt to understand what they might mean or > > stand for. I always thought this was due to laziness on my part, but > > the above statement gives me some hope that it may not all be in vain. > .... > I don't understand this to be the meaning at all, though I have no doubt > there can be some physilogical or other value - like at the start of my > yoga classes when I join in a chant. I've no idea what it's about, but Dr > Ma says it's good for my voice and throat;-) Sometimes too, I read out > Pali phrases just for practice. You're probably right. > With regard to the discrimination, I understood when I read it that as > soon as the sound is heard, the full meaning is comprehended. For example > the sounds of 'attha' or 'dhamma' or 'hetu' are heard and without any > analysis (or concepts as object) the full and deep meaning is thoroughly > known. As I suggested before, this is how a disciple such as Sariputta > could hear a few lines of Abhidhamma and thoroughly understand the > complexity of detail and how of course, the Buddha, with the greatest > knowledge of all could thoroughly understand anything as soon as he was > enlightened with his omniscience. > > It's difficult to relate it at all to our very limited undestanding at > all. But, for example, if I say 'nama' or 'rupa' to someone who has not > heard anything about the Dhamma, it means nothing. If I say it to you or > John, without anymore detail, there is a lot of understood meaning. If I > said it to someone with greater insight, it would mean a lot more still. > So I think to an arahant with patisambhida (discriminations), the full > depth of the teachings would be penetrated on hearing these brief sounds. > > Jim, this is just speculation as I try to make sense to myself;-) Thanks for your interesting speculations. The four discriminations is a subject that I need to spend a lot of time studying and mulling over. > Interpreting squiggles from the Pali, I think we have: > > "...niruttipatisambhida saddarammana nama jata, na paññatti-arammana." > (...Discrimination of Language comes to have sounds as object, not > concepts) > ..... > > I don't understand it either. The Magadha tongue is also foremost in > > the realms of hell-beings, animals, hungry ghosts, and deities > > according to Dispeller §1949. Does this mean that animals can > > understand Pali? Perhaps this is so when a Buddha or Arahant is > > speaking to them. > .... > Could it mean foremost in terms of being the no 1. language (rather than > most common) as we read in the next para about how other languages change > but "only this Magadha tongue correctly called the perfect (brahma) usage, > the noble usage, does not change."??? And it then goes on to talk about > why the Buddha used this language relating to the above: I was thinking along those lines also. > I tried my best to keep it short Jim and reluctantly snipped a couple of > sub-threads like the Mulapariyaya sutta. It could easily have been twice > as long;-) I think you did a good job at keeping it short this time but I noticed my name kept showing up in your other recent posts as if it were another way for you to sneak in other topics of interest for me to think about and comment on. :-) > p.s I hope you've been reading about the solitary lifestyles of Reg and > Chittapala Down Under;-) Yes, I've been reading about their solitary lifestyles. Like Reg, I also lived for the first ten years without electricity. I also have a lot of experience staying in small tents during my long periods of travel when I was much younger. Best wishes, Jim 25357 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. op 16-09-2003 01:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Am I correct in thinking there is a > material rupa that impinges on (touches) the sensitive matter of the > sense base and that sensitive matter translates that touch into a > sensation that interrupts the bhavanga stream? N: Sensitive matter does not tranlate, it does not do anything. It is rupa. There are conditions operating and we cannot know the *why*. We only know that it is due to kamma whether there will be seeing or the other sense-cognitions, these are vipaka. L: Also, can we say there are probably many many impingements that don't > get translated into sensations that interrupt the bhavanga? If so, why? > What determines what makes it to the bhavanga? N: the bhavanga may be "disturbed" and still the process may not occur. The rupa which impinged fell away because its time was up. Again, we cannot know the why. L: Further, does abhidhamma speculate how long lived the material rupa is? The Abhidhamma does not speculate. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when the duration of rupa is compared to that of citta. Or, counting three sub-moments of each citta as: arising moment, moments of presence and moment of falling away, rupa lasts as long as fiftyone submoments of citta. Nina. 25358 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking Dear Jaran, Thank you very much for these conversations, I keep them in my file. This one about thinking is very important. We discuss all the time thinking and concepts, and we imagine that we know what thinking is. It seems rather easy: O yes, now I am thinking. But how far off we are! Good to be reminded. With much appreciation, Nina. ----------- > Not until the level of ~nata parinna [N; comprehension of the known], which > is after naama-ruupa-paricheda~na.na [N: first stage of tender insight; distinguishing the Characteristic of nama from that of rupa] does panna fully > penetrate the thinking. Not until that level is sati fully > aware of thinking. Then sati and panna will be aware and > understand the characteristics of thinking--which is naama > and is not our Self. 25359 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi Frank, ------------- > I have been interested mainly in > practice rather than theory. But one informs the other, of course. > Hence my growing interest in working on a more firm basis > for "right understanding". ------------ I wholeheartedly agree. Right understanding comes first; It conditions right thought, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration to arise with it and perform their functions. There is no other way in which satipatthana can occur. ------------- > suppose I > eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying > vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience > of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the > object and not that which experiences an object. > But the object of what? ------------- Good question. I need to read ADL again but I THINK citta experiences only its object -- it doesn't experience the vedana or other cetasikas that accompany it. So when the object is flavour, citta knows only flavour. When the object is a concept such as; "this is ice cream," citta knows only, "this is ice cream." However, among the potential objects of citta are the previous citta and cetasikas. They have just fallen away but they can still be experienced perfectly clearly (just as a resonating gong can still be heard). So the vedana that experiences any of the tongue-door or mind-door objects can, itself, be experienced and thought about. Then the concept might become, "I am enjoying this ice cream." I hope that's close -- let's wait for some more replies. Kind regards, Ken H 25360 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 0:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: kamma patha Dear Nina, Thank you for these explanations, you have been very patient. It is gradually becoming clear that the twenty courses of action are all the same, single type of paramattha dhamma; cetana. (It's a matter of "different degrees and aspects.") As you say, it doesn't depend on whether the citta is with lobha or dosa, slandering and stealing are still slandering and stealing. It was interesting to reread your original post on this thread; "Dhamma Issues No 8." You say that a Sotapanna may speak with anger and that may look as if he is slandering but it won't be. The reason being; a sotapanna is incapable of unhappy-rebirth-producing kamma. As has often been said, it's difficult to know the intentions behind kamma-pathas. For example, someone may 'steal' a gun from a violent man. Or someone may 'kill' a mosquito while trying to prevent the spread of malaria. There's obviously more to these things than meets the eye. -------------. > The opposites, avoiding these. We cannot say just with > adosa, when there is adosa there has to be also alobha. --------------- Even so, kusala cittas have one of the three wholesome hetus predominating haven't they? A moment of metta is different from a moment of dana, for example. When I was writing the previous message, I was thinking that kusala cittas were actually alobha-mula-citta or adosa- mula-citta or amoha-mula-citta. But after a quick check with ADL, I take that back. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25361 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Proximate cause of understanding Jim Thanks for correcting me on this. So there is no mention of proximate cause in this passage -- only of the other factors (manifestation, etc). Seems odd, but there it is. Jon --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > The statement: "non-perplexity as its proximate cause," is due to a > translation mistake in The Expositor and was corrected by Nina > after I > pointed it out. You must have missed the following correction Nina > posted to DSG on Aug. 3: > > < Jim pointed out a mistake in Atthasalini. On Zolag there is a > special > place > for corrections. You can also correct it in my book Cetasikas. 25362 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Chittapala and simply living. Hi Christine, Azita, Nori & All, I hope you don’t mind me combining a couple of your posts her. I’m leaving out all references to dogs and also any mention of in these simple living comments: --- gazita2002 wrote: > > You also mentioned simple living. Yes, I am quite good at > that and I'm wondering if it's bec. I really could not be fussed > looking after all the things one tends to collect. I remember my ex > partner was a real Steptoe, had heaps of stuff and I often felt > cluttered by all these possessions. However, I'm not convinced that > it has much to do with being wholesome really - not that that is what > you are saying. .... I fully agree with you. Having been brought up in large English houses full of antiques and seen all the care and time needed, I’ve gone to the other extreme - small, minimalist and averse to unnecessary bits and pieces. Lots of attachment to this way. It’s certainly no more wholesome. My poor mother frets about who will look after her antiques in due course. I just say ‘count me out’, whereas one of my kind brothers tries to reassure her he’ll do his best to help. Also like you (well, going that way anyway;-)), I seldom wear any make-up or jewellery these days, but again it’s more because I can’t be fussed, especially as I swim, do yoga and rush here and there. I think that equating attachment with possessions is a real red herring, as we saw with the mulch;-). As soon as we open our eyes, hear, smell, taste or feel, the attachment slips in immediately. Then there’s all the attachment to the stories. The other morning as my alarm went off, I was woken from a pleasant dream. For a few moments I was aware of clinging to the story, not wanting to let it go, in spite of knowing it was a dream;-( Still, opportunities for awareness at any of these times too. ..... > I think the real wholesomness comes from having a mind as clean > and a clear as an empty house. However, that state is far away for > me and in the meantime, I live the way I live, good states, bad > states, all coming and going, not me, not mine, not myself. ... Well said and I agree. **** --- christine_forsyth wrote: > On the Cooran weekend when discussing supportive communities for lay > buddhists, there were similar reactions from some of the group. It > had been mentioned that some of us were interested in simpler models > of living, maybe even moving from where we were, reducing working > hours, and living closer to fellow buddhists in conditions more > conducive to Dhamma study and practice. Some of the group reminded us > that all there was was the present moment, and no matter where we > were realities could be studied, that tension, anxiety, aversion, > wanting to be elsewhere, could be insighted as they occur. And I > agree. ..... We all agree here;-) .... >But that is not the point. Gritting ones teeth and staying in > situations that can easily be improved is not more saintly than > making the choice to live elsewhere. It can simply be clinging to the > idea of 'Oh, what a good buddhist I am!' I have lived here for over > twenty years - I don't think staying put proves I am any more > virtuous or further along the Path than choosing to go. Happy to > hear any comments. .... I think the point being made was that only present realities conditioned already can ever be known. So even if there’s aversion, ‘gritting of teeth’, attachment or conceit, there are characteristics which can be known. As I was discussing with Nori in the ‘burning house’ scenario, none of this is to suggest that one should or shouldn’t move, or that it’s better to stay and stick it out than to follow other inclinations. If one thinks like this, it would again be a misunderstanding of the teachings. So, if one wishes to leave one’s job, live in a tent or a vihara or feels some other lifestyle would be more conducive to Dhamma study, companionship [or avoidance of companionship] or merely something one would like to do, there’s no reason why not. After all, we read posts here or plan to go on a trip with K.Sujin to Burma because we’re confident about the value of listening to and discussing the Dhamma. If however, one has the idea that another time and place or another moment is more appropriate for the development of satipatthana, then I think it’s wrong understanding of the objects of sati which are arising at this moment. It’s like the escaping from the bullets first scenario;-) So if there is clinging and mana (conceit) now, why not know them as they are? Also, of course there’s bound to be seeing, hearing and a myriad of other sense door experiences as well. I’m not sure I’ve added anything to your Cooran discussions. I’d be glad to hear what you or the others present, like Ken H, have to say. You mentioned in another post (to me on ignorance) about various ‘lucky’ and ‘unlucky’ kammic results such as being able to hear the Dhamma, being an animal and so on. I agreed with what you said. Ultimately, of course, vipaka moments are so very brief regardless of the lifestyle. We can think and speculate about another more conducive environment and so on, but it is just thinking as we have no idea what conditions will bring about what vipaka at any given moment. Btw, Chris, you mentioned the Jivaka sutta (On Being a Lay Follower) and mentioned you were looking at the Pali too;-) Would you kindly share some of the sutta and your study and reflections? I was also glad Derek helped untangle the different numbering systems. Metta, Sarah ====== 25363 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:58am Subject: Training Precepts Hi Ken H, Christine, RobM, Nina, Howard & All, I just have a few comments to add on this thread from a few posts written: --- kenhowardau wrote: Nina:> > ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which > > are killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, > > slandering and wrong view, are eradicated by the path- > > consciousness of the ariyan who is sotåpanna. > Ken H:> This accounts for the Sotapanna's inability to break the > first four precepts but isn't he also incapable of > breaking the fifth (intoxicants)? ..... This is right, but the point was that breaking the fifth precept is not akusala kamma-patha by itself. This is why K.Sujin’s comment about the intentions were relevant, I think. ..... > It seems to me that the fifth precept is basically about > livelihood. A worldling is capable of wrong view; in > other words, of refusing to heed the Buddha's teaching. > By taking intoxicants, he can live in a way that ensures > heedlessness. > > On the other hand, a Sotapanna is incapable of wilful > heedlessness. This manifests in his lifestyle as an > inability to consume intoxicants. (?) But other kilesas > continue to cause heedlessness and so he can live as a > householder in much the same way as a worldling can. .... As Nina mentioned, in the commentary to the ‘Minor Readings’ (Khuddakapaa.tha), we read about how heedlessness can lead to the breaking of other precepts. It always depends on the intention. I don’t think any of us doubt the value of abstention from the consuming of intoxicants in general. In the Minor Readigs, the Ten Training Precepts,46, we read: “The fruits of abstention from the opportunity-for-negligence-due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink are such things as swift recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant establishment of mindfulness, freedom from madness, possession of knowledge, non-procrastination, non-stupidity, non-drivellingness, non-intoxication, non-negligence, non-confusion, non-timorousness, non-prsumption, unenviousness, truthfulness, freedom from malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness both night and day, gratitude, gratefulness, unavariciousness, liberality, virtuousness, rectitude, unangriness, possession of conscience, possession of shame, rectitude of view, great understanding, wisdom, learnedness, skill in (distinguishing) good from harm, and so on.” ..... Most of us have enough problems in these areas already;-) I thought Howard’s comments were very wise and compassionate in this regard. I tend to have aversion and be critical when I’m around others who are drinking alcohol, but really it’s a time to develop metta and understanding too. We all have different ‘weaknesses’ and as in the case of Sarakani who became a sotapanna in spite of having taken strong drink shortly beforehand, we never know when seeds for wisdom will bring results. On the question of the breach of the Vinaya rules for monks and the training rules for lay people which Nina distinguished, we also read this in The Minor Readings, same ch,19: “ ‘By breach’: in the case of novices, when one (training precept) is broken, all are broken; for they are to novices as the Defeats (see Vin,iii,1f)[are to bhikkhus]; but responsibility for action resides only in the one actually transgressed. In the case of householders, when one is broken then only that one is broken, and consequently the fivefoldness of their virtue becomes effective again as soon as that one alone is reundertaken.” ..... In a post to Larry, Christine was also giving some details about killing and the size of living beings as a factor. I think the effort or ‘magnitude of means’ involved refers to the mental effort, not the physical effort, Chris. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20674 With regard to stealing, lying, and sexual misconduct, I think we’ve seen in other references that the person ‘harmed’ may also be a factor in the same way. Rob M wrote many helpful comments and details with regard to sexual misconduct. He mentioned how “the degree of moral gravity in the offense is determined by the force of the lust motivating the action and the qualities of the person about whom the transgression is committed. the most serious violations are incest and the rape of an Arahant.” http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24628 (He didn’t give a reference (??), but it sounds logical to me). Look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 25364 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Demystifying/understanding nama and rupa:Howard Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > >_(the Udana, Enlightenment Ch, 10 with Bahiya, Masefield trans): > > The Buddha addressed Bahiya:" Therefore, Bahiya, you should train > yourself that with respect to the seen there will be merely the seen, > that with respect to the heard.... > > Hi Sarah & Ken, > > We could also say with respect to the seen there will be all the > universal cetasikas. It just depends on what you mean by "be". .... I understand it to mean that with regard to what is seen, i.e visible object, only visible object is experienced. No other world appears at the moment of seeing. There is no sound, no concept or anything else appearing. Of course the universal cetasikas accompany the ‘experiencing’ at this and all other moments. As for “be”, I understand it to mean “be known” or “understood”. Comments? Metta, Sarah ==== 25365 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] week 5 (Jul 7 02) no 6 Hi Jaran, Howard, Nori & All, Jaran, good to ‘see’you and thanks for the good reminders you posted from discussions with A.Sujin. These ones in particular relate to recent discussions I’ve been having with Howard & Nori, I think. So I’ll just requote a relevant part, expressed more clearly imho, and look forward to any further comments. ‘Everything daily’ - even fleeing burning houses or bullets as I understand;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Jaran - I liked the other extract too.Thx for sharing;-) ===== A.Sujin (Jaran’s translation): “We often talk about satipatthana, vipassana ~na.na, lokutara citta etc. We often forget or ignore that there is important understanding in the level before arising of satipatthana. First of all, we don't have to think whether or not sati will arise. But it is far more important to understand that everything daily is dhamma, reality, element that exist without anyone's creation. Nobody can create, and we cannot cause them to happen. As we are thinking of creating some dhamma or causing them to arise, a dhamma has already arisen. However, when the dhamma arise, we are not aware and don't understand its characteristics because we are busy hoping for something else to arise or trying to make something else arise. For example, when we talk about the moment of seeing being dhamma, which is ordinary. Sacca ~na.na understands firmly that this seeing is anatta and has arisen. The nature of dhamma, all realities, are is simply this way: they are anatta, so noone can create and control. They always appear as they arise, and it's up to the level of understanding to understand and be aware of their characteristics and nature. Now dhamma has arisen but if satipatthana does not arise, there won't be true understanding of characteristics of that dhamma. This is understanding in sacca ~na.na level. One should firmly understand (have the knowledge of) the nature of dhamma and sati, etc, in the intellectual level instead of attempting to 'do' something or 'make' something happen." [snip, but well worth reading the rest of the original post a few times I think] ==================== 25366 From: Sarah Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali and Sanskrit Hi Connie & All, --- connie wrote: > If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I think seeing both spellings would > be useful. Kinda like seeing an acceptable and preferred spelling in an > English dictionary. > peace, .... I think we’ve all come to the same conclusion too. Would you or anyone else like to volunteer (as a Pali glossary reviser) to add the preferred spelling in brackets after each Pali word in the glossary in ‘files’ as the mods are all rather busy? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms If anyone has the time, pls let Kom or me know to save doubling up on the work. There’d be no hurry - a few words at a time would be fine. Metta, Sarah ===== 25367 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi, Ken H - In a message dated 9/17/03 12:20:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > However, among the potential objects of citta are the previous citta > and cetasikas. They have just fallen away but they can still be > experienced perfectly clearly (just as a resonating gong can still be > heard). So the vedana that experiences any of the tongue-door or > mind-door objects can, itself, be experienced and thought about. Then > the concept might become, "I am enjoying this ice cream." > ========================== Your "resonating gong" as metaphor for the remnants of the just-fallen-away citta and cetasikas works well for what I have in mind when I use the expression "fresh memory". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25368 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:34am Subject: Re: Training Precepts Dear Sarah, RobM, Nina, Howard, Christine, Ken H and Dhamma Friends, There had been many many Buddhas. Time factor of Parinibbana of a Buddha and arising of next Buddha is immence. Unimaginably long. As far as we can reach accoding to History even in this earth, specific time speaks its existence and the existences differ each other. Within 2000 years, sexual orientation and view on it has changed a lot. This is time factor. In the first 1000, even though there might be abnormal sexual orientation, it was not so prevalent as today. Today, some laws have to be passed. In the indefinite past, there might have been a time when there is no gay. This can be reasoned out. Regarding intoxicants, there also was a time when there was not any intoxicant ( used as recreational purposes ). At that particular time no one will drink alcohol as there might not have any form of alcohol. Even if alcohol existed, as there was no previous practice, no one would drink that strange smelling liquid. Before the era of telling lies, those who heard telling lies could not understand what was the matter. Before that era, no one would try to tell lies. And there are many other things to discuss on time factors. When our Buddha Gotama arose as Buddha and soon followed by arising of Arahats, The Buddha had not passed any Vinaya in His early time. Because it was not needed at that time as all members of Sangha were Arahats and all bhikkhus were Arahats. But as time passed by The Buddha had to pass down Vinaya by using Buddha authority. Some Buddha even did not lay down any Vinaya as all members of his followers including Sangha and all Puthujana people did not do any ill-things and they would not do as long as that Buddha stayed. All Sammasambuddha do have Sabbannuta Nana. All Sammasambuddhas are the same in terms of Dhamma. But time factor is not the same. Vinayawise, Vinaya in Buddha Gotama time are the greatest in number. ( I apologise my not being able to show evidence for this ). Among Sila matter, drinking alcohol per se is not an Akusala as discussed in the previous post of this thread. But time factor speaks and other factors like anatomy and physiology of Manussa at particular time. At some time, intoxicant may rapidly change the mind of drinkers and removes their controls over things. But at some time drinking alcohol will not have any problem. Main things is to advance forward in achievement of Dhamma. If intoxicant hinders it, then it should be totally avoided. If it does not hinder the practice like very very small amount of alcohol in some food and some medicine, the practitioner of Dhamma should not have any Kukkucca on that food and medicine. May you all have a good insight into Dhamma. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, Christine, RobM, Nina, Howard & All, > > I just have a few comments to add on this thread from a few posts written: > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Nina:> > ... six kinds of unwholesome courses of action which > Look forward to any further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 25369 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: Jim's wasps and diary. Dear Jim, do not answer me, but I had a good laugh. Perhaps you could consider a diary during the time of your seclusion. We have a right to know whether the wasps went indeed into hibernation. I was very intrigued by the story about the wasps. Best wishes, Nina. op 17-09-2003 04:44 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@y...: > I think you did a good job at keeping it short this time but I noticed > my name kept showing up in your other recent posts as if it were > another way for you to sneak in other topics of interest for me to > think about and comment on. :-) 25370 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi Larry op 17-09-2003 01:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Can it happen that gotrabu consciousness directly understands nibbana > but the defilements fail to permanently cease, lokuttara doesn't arise, > and the mundane, defiled state resumes? N: No. The process during which the lokuttara cittas will arise has already started, no way to stop it. Nina. 25371 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: correction in spelling Dear Sarah, I just heard that I made a mistake in spelling of Kaeng Krachan. I wrote: Kraeng Kacang. This for the archives: maybe you could substitute Kaeng Krachan in: Title:: Title, and Preface, at very beginning, second line. Last page: on our last morning in Kaeng Krachan... I wrote to Alan, Zolag web. If Jon has time would he share with us some meaning explanations in Parliement Sessions tapes? Or else jot down for me the dates of these tapes? Thank you, Nina. 25372 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 16, 17, 18, kosalla Hi Larry, op 17-09-2003 04:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w... > > Does kosalla (skill) mean "understanding" in this case, as in: > understanding improvement, understanding ruin, and understanding means? N: Yes. All the classifications in the Vis are about the many aspects of understanding. I should quote the Book of Analysis the Vis refers to in Vibhanga, Ch 16, para 771: As to proficiency in loss [ skill in ruin, detriment], it is said that wisdom understands these. We read at the end: The Dispeller of Delusion, the co. elaborates more on kosalla, and its text is almost the same as the Tiika of the Vis. I shall use it in my transl, but I need time now. Nina. 25373 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi Howard, Howard quotes: >> N: pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking >> the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. > Howard: > Okay. I guess one might say this is the "conventional path". N: Why conventional? The pathfators have to be developed together. H: quotes N: All eight path-factors accompany this citta. > > Howard: > Not so clear - at least not to me. On the face of it, and I don't know > how else to properly understand these - right speech, right action and right > livelihood strike me not as cetasikas, but as conventional activities that are > both continuing and repeating. The notion of these occuring as factors of a > mind-moment makes no sense to me. Certainly the *inclination* to such > activities may occur, but the *inclination* to right livelihood, for example, > is not > the same as right livelihood. N: These three are particular cetasikas, virati cetasikas, the abstinences which each have their own function. When mundane they arise one at a time, depending on the occasion. These occasions are situations involving people and things. Like: abstaining from killing a living being. It is actually the same as metta: this is a cetasika, adosa, and has as object a living being. But it is still a cetasika. Right livelihood: a virati cetasika abstains from wrong livelihood at certain moments. When lokuttara citta arises the object of the three abstinences is not a person, it is nibbana. The conditions for wrong speech, action, livelihood are cut off, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. Thus: nibbana is experienced and conditions for akusala are eradicated. At the same time. >H: quotes N:The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that> >> is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. >> Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the >> magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This never >> happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness >> experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that >> stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. >> > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My question here is twofold: > > 1) Does this say that fruition consciousness has multiple objects? It > sounds that way, but, of course, cannot be so. N: The Path-consciousness eradicates defilements and experiences nibbana. Fruition is like true peace after the defilements have been eradicated. It experiences nibbana. H: 2) How does one experience now-nonexistent defilements? Is it the > memory of them that is experienced, or the knowledge of the fact of their > having > ceased? N: I would think the last one, but is it OK not to be so sure, as you said to Larry? The Vis. explains in different contexts that multiple functions are possible. Nina. 25374 From: Jim Anderson Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jim's wasps and diary. Dear Nina, Glad you got a good laugh out of it. :-) I probably won't be keeping a diary as I was never one for keeping one, but will remember to take note of important events and relate some of the highlights later on. I don't think I'll be disconnecting the phone line after all but will do my best to stay in seclusion from about mid-Oct. to mid-Dec. I'll also be away for two weeks in early Oct. I haven't had any more encounters with the wasps. I'm pretty much leaving it up to Mother Nature to take care of them as none of the worker wasps will survive the winter and the nest is not reused from what I read. When it freezes up I'll look under the cottage for a nest. The latest thing to worry about is Hurricane Isabel which is about to strike the US eastern seaboard. I have been following the storm's projected track and its centre is due to past close by just to the east of me Friday evening. They think it could bring a lot of rain, flooding, and wind. I'm a little apprehensive about my trees. I think Rob Ep in the Washington area will also be affected. The last time we had a hurricane like this in Ontario was in 1954. If you don't hear from me for a long time after Friday, you'll know why. I might be too busy gathering up pieces of my cottage and trying to rescue my Pali books. :-) With fingers crossed, Jim > Dear Jim, do not answer me, but I had a good laugh. Perhaps you could > consider a diary during the time of your seclusion. We have a right to know > whether the wasps went indeed into hibernation. I was very intrigued by the > story about the wasps. > Best wishes, > Nina. 25375 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV, 14, path, path-consciousness and fruition. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/17/03 1:28:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Howard quotes: > >>N: pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna > taking > >>the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. > >Howard: > >Okay. I guess one might say this is the "conventional path". > N: Why conventional? The pathfators have to be developed together. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, I seem to have misunderstood what was being driven at. ------------------------------------------- > > H: quotes N: All eight path-factors accompany this citta. > > > >Howard: > >Not so clear - at least not to me. On the face of it, and I don't know > >how else to properly understand these - right speech, right action and > right > >livelihood strike me not as cetasikas, but as conventional activities that > are > >both continuing and repeating. The notion of these occuring as factors of a > >mind-moment makes no sense to me. Certainly the *inclination* to such > >activities may occur, but the *inclination* to right livelihood, for > example, > >is not > >the same as right livelihood. > N: These three are particular cetasikas, virati cetasikas, the abstinences > which each have their own function. When mundane they arise one at a time, > depending on the occasion. These occasions are situations involving people > and things. Like: abstaining from killing a living being. > It is actually the same as metta: this is a cetasika, adosa, and has as > object a living being. But it is still a cetasika. Right livelihood: a > virati cetasika abstains from wrong livelihood at certain moments. > When lokuttara citta arises the object of the three abstinences is not a > person, it is nibbana. The conditions for wrong speech, action, livelihood > are cut off, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. > Thus: nibbana is experienced and conditions for akusala are eradicated. At > the same time. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, okay. What you describe here seem to be "mind movements" quite like intentions/inclinations/acts of volition. But, in any case, this sense of 'right livelihood' appears to be radically differnt from what the Buddha gives in the suttas, where lists of wrong choices of livelihood are given. Nowhere have I come across anything like this in the suttas. Is it not possible that, relative to the suttas, the Abhidhamma is being "innovative" here, contrary to the idea expressed by some that there is nothing in Abhidhamma does not already occur in the suttas? ------------------------------------------------- > >H: quotes N:The Path is supramundane, lokuttara, that> > >>is, citta and cetasikas are lokuttara. > >>Fruition-consciousness, phala-citta: this is the result, vipaka, of the > >>magga-citta, succeeding immediately upon the path-consciousness. This > never > >>happens in the case of the sense-sphere cittas. The fruition-consciousness > >>experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that > >>stage, have been already eradicated by the magga-citta. > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >My question here is twofold: > > > >1) Does this say that fruition consciousness has multiple objects? It > >sounds that way, but, of course, cannot be so. > N: The Path-consciousness eradicates defilements and experiences nibbana. > Fruition is like true peace after the defilements have been eradicated. It > experiences nibbana. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, it is like a true peace. But I don't see how that answers the question about the assertion "The fruition-consciousness experiences nibbana and the defilements that were to be eradicated at that stage ..." seeming to allowfor multiple objects for fruition consciousness. I apologize for pressing this, but I still find this issue unresolved. ------------------------------------------------------- > H: 2) How does one experience now-nonexistent defilements? Is it the > >memory of them that is experienced, or the knowledge of the fact of their > >having > >ceased? > N: I would think the last one, but is it OK not to be so sure, as you said > to Larry? > The Vis. explains in different contexts that multiple functions are > possible. > Nina. > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25376 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Melodies Hi, all - While riding to work today I listened to a piece for violin and orchestra on a classical-music radio station. It was exquisitely beautiful. I got to thinking: No sound-rupa that was the object of any particular mind-moment/citta was heard as beautiful. What was heard as beautiful was the violin-played melody, the patterned flow of sound. Yet, the patterned flow of sound was concept-only,with only the individual sound-events actually occurring and heard at any time, at least that is the Abhidhammic perspective on the matter. So, what exactly was it that was "beautiful"? It seems to me that during the course of the playing of the piece, the mind, specifically the constructive, its sankharic functions, based on the memory and recognition functions of sa~n~na, produced mental constructs that captured/encoded/represented sections of the piece, that these constructs were mind-door objects experienced as beautiful, and that these, in turn, were combined into higher-level constructs of the same sort as the listening continued. Just my thoughts on the matter. Comments anyone? With metta, Howard 25377 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the sense-bases. Nina: "Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, when the duration of rupa is compared to that of citta. Or, counting three sub-moments of each citta as: arising moment, moments of presence and moment of falling away, rupa lasts as long as fiftyone submoments of citta." Hi Nina, In the above you are referring to the rupa that disturbs the bhavanga, not the rupa that impinges on the sensitive matter of the sense base, correct? Aren't these two different rupas? Larry 25378 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Melodies In music, what is beautiful? Hi Howard, Let's not talk about concepts. We could say the sound was good kamma result, being conventionally desirable. That desirableness is possibly due to identifying (by sa~n~na) the 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas with the sound: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong, non-greed, non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body, tranquility of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, wieldiness of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of consciousness. Or, maybe it just seemed fat and sweet. Whatever the qualities of beauty, they are patched onto the object by sa~n~na, I think. Larry 25379 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jaran, > Thank you very much for these conversations, I keep them in my file. This > one about thinking is very important. dear Jaran, I join Nina here, and thank you for these conversations. Until I am reminded of this, again and again, I tend to forget how sutle the development of panna is. Sometimes I wonder why it took the Buddha such a long, long time to finally become the Buddha, and when I think about his qualities and am reminded how great his wisdom must have been, then I see that it is not an easy business to attain Nibbana. It is interesting to note that each time I listen to tapes that I brought back from T'land, I find something that I didn't hear before or that maybe I didn't understand, and now I do understand. I've also noted how much lobha I have for listening and reading and studying the Dhamma. I'm aware of thinking 'O, now I understand a little more, that's good, I getting better at this'!!! Lots of lobha and mana, but I guess they can be known for what they are too. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 25380 From: Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Melodies Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/17/03 7:24:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > In music, what is beautiful? ------------------------------------------ Howard: As someone said ;-)), it's in the eye of the beholder! [Though I do think there are *some* objective measures for beauty (in terms of such things as symmetry). ----------------------------------------- > > Hi Howard, > > Let's not talk about concepts. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Buddha forbid! ;-) ------------------------------------------ We could say the sound was good kamma> > result, being conventionally desirable. That desirableness is possibly > due to identifying (by sa~n~na) the 19 Beautiful Universal cetasikas > with the sound: faith, mindfulness, shame, fear of wrong, non-greed, > non-hatred, neutrality of mind, tranquility of mental body, tranquility > of consciousness, lightness of mental body, lightness of consciousness, > malleability of mental body, malleability of consciousness, wieldiness > of mental body, wieldiness of consciousness, proficiency of mental body, > proficiency of consciousness, rectitude of mental body, rectitude of > consciousness. Or, maybe it just seemed fat and sweet. > > Whatever the qualities of beauty, they are patched onto the object by > sa~n~na, I think. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I would agree with that. The question I posed, however, was in fact exactly what *is* the object. I do *not* think it is any one of the sound-rupas heard during the playing of the melody. It is, instead, a mind-construct (or several such) representing an entire patterned sequence of violin sounds. Call it a thought, or a concept, or whatever [neither 'thought' nor 'concept' seems adequate to me] , but it is something experienced, something that I am certain is a mental construct, and it is experienced *as* a beautiful, violin-rendered melody. Now, indeed, tranquillity and lightness are certainly characteristics of the appreciating mindstates resulting from hearing the melody - I agree with that. ------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 25381 From: Seylan Bank- dbd (Sumane Rathnasuriya) Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Digest Number 1629 Message: 1 From: Sarah Subject: Re: question Hi Frank M, Welcome from another learning member of DSG. Hi Sarah, Thanks for the reminder: As a reminder to everyone, RobM has posted word files of the entire tidied up archives (almost to date) in the files for anyone who wishes to download, use these for a search or read through 'like a novel' on an aeroplane: True & Many many Merits to RobM, thereon. With metta, Sumane _______ 25382 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: Training Precepts Dear Sarah (and Nina), I think I understand. I've said that a lot lately and have been horribly wrong every time; but you and Nina are gradually getting the point across (I think). > breaking the fifth precept is not akusala kamma- > patha by itself. This is why K.Sujin's comment about > the intentions were relevant, The kamma-pathas ARE intention aren't they? But when you say,"breaking the fifth precept," you are talking about conventional reality. A person can break the fifth precept by drinking alcohol but there may be no serious intention (cetana, kamma-patha) involved. I assume the same applies to the other four precepts. OR, are you saying there is something special about the fifth precept? I ask that partly because the fifth precept doesn't seem to correspond to any one kamma-patha (as the other four do). Nina has said that drunkeness may lead to the breaking of the other four precepts. Did she mean that the fifth precept doesn't directly relate to any particular kamma-patha? Or, was she simply making the point that the precepts are concepts, not dhammas, and that different dhammas (different types of cetana), can be involved in each? Was I correct in assuming that the fifth precept is basically about the mental kamma-patha, wrong view? Thanks for your patience, Confused of Noosa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H, Christine, RobM, Nina, Howard & All, > > I just have a few comments to add on this thread from a few posts written: > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > 25383 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Dear Frank, op 16-09-2003 19:43 schreef Frank op frankmatton@y...: > For example, suppose > I eat an ice cream. There will be a mind moment with the accompanying > vedana ("pleasant"). But I can also become aware that my experience > of an object is pleasant. So here the cetasika (vedana) itself is the > object and not that which experiences an object. But the object of > what? Of the citta which it assists? How can that be, since – as Nina > mentioned in her reply -- "citta and cetasikas experience the same > object" ? N: Ken explained very well with the simile of the gong. And indeed, we like pleasant feeling so much, we are attached to it. When we do a good deed, there are many different objects, also concepts of people and things. We think with kusala citta, and then we feel so happy about ourselves, another object again experienced by other cittas with lobha. There are so many cittas experienceing different objects, we cannot pinpoint them all. Nina. 25384 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma patha Dear Ken, op 17-09-2003 09:50 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > Even so, kusala cittas have one of the three wholesome > hetus predominating haven't they? A moment of metta is > different from a moment of dana, for example. N: When we use the word predominating, I think of predominance condition, but that is very precise. I would not put it that way. Metta and dana are different, but with metta there is alobha and adosa. You do not think of yourself, and you are kind. Dana: includes so many aspects, even giving other beings the opportunity to live in peace: abstaining from killing those wasps. (these wasps ;-) ) Also forgiving is a kind of dana. There is also metta. Nina. 25385 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Chittapala and simply living. Dear Christine, op 17-09-2003 10:46 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Btw, Chris, you mentioned the Jivaka sutta (On Being a Lay Follower) and > mentioned you were looking at the Pali too;-) Would you kindly share some > of the sutta and your study and reflections? I was also glad Derek helped > untangle the different numbering systems. N: Yes, I would like to see it too, the more Pali the better. Nina 25386 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi Howard, ------------ > Your "resonating gong" as metaphor for the remnants of the > just-fallen-away citta and cetasikas works well for what I have in mind when I use the > expression "fresh memory". ------------- Thanks, that's encouraging, I don't remember where my metaphor came from -- it was not original. No one has gainsaid our explanations so we may be on a winner. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25387 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] question (cetasika - citta) Hi Howard and Nina, Woops, as I spoke I didn't realise that Nina had commented. Sorry Nina, I didn't mean to ignore you. I am glad that you agree with our explanations. Kind regrds, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > ------------ > > Your "resonating gong" as metaphor for the remnants of the > > just-fallen-away citta and cetasikas works well for what I have in > mind when I use the > > expression "fresh memory". > ------------- > > Thanks, that's encouraging, I don't remember where my metaphor came > from -- it was not original. > > No one has gainsaid our explanations so we may be on a winner. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 25388 From: jaranoh Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] week 5 (Jul 7 02) no 6 Dear Sarah: > `Everything daily' - even fleeing burning houses or bullets as I > understand;-) Thank you for this concise and deep statement..easy for me to remember. It's one of the best reminder for me to 'flee the burning house'. Best Regards, jaran 25389 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: Melodies Hi Howard, ------------ > It seems to me that during the course of the playing of > the piece, the mind, specifically the constructive, its > sankharic functions, based on the memory and > recognition functions of sa~n~na, produced mental > constructs that captured/encoded/represented sections > of the piece, that these constructs were mind-door > objects experienced as beautiful, ------------- That sounds right to me. Most people would agree that the music was beautiful. For the protagonist in "A Clockwork Orange," however, music by Beethoven was torture; it all depends on what the mind associates with past, similar experiences. -------------- > and that these, in turn, were combined into higher- > level constructs of the same sort as the listening > continued -------------- There, I couldn't begin to guess. Can one "higher-level" concept take in many parts of the music -- a whole symphony even -- or are there just a lot of 'lower level' concepts that give that impression? For example, we may be thinking, these notes cleverly mimic notes that were played earlier but while we are thinking that, is there still a concept of any of those notes or is there just "there is similarity?" I have to stop thinking about this, my brain hurts. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 25390 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 0:42am Subject: week 5 (Jul 7 02) No 8 Q: One more observation from me, our thinking is purely synthetic, all stories. ASujin: Yes, it's all 'imaginary', illusion before it's known as thinking... Q: ...when we think [about dhamma] that this is lobha, that is something else, we often overlook and forget that it is just thinking. ASujin: Can you see how profound, how intricate, how subtle thinking and the mind is? [It will continue to be this way] Until the mind is known as naama, and its arising and falling away are directly experienced at the level of udayappaya ~na.na. Q: In stead of understanding the lakkha.na (charateristics), the mind almost goes directly the 'story' of dhamma. ASujin: ...until the sacca ~na.na firmly takes root. [this indicates how important listening to right dhamma is as sacca ~na.na, right understanding, develops from meeting right individuals and dhamma friends, attentive listening, and critical analysis of dhamma...among other things] Q: [for me] there is still very little understanding.. ASujin: Yes. At this moment, there seems to be our Self that is craving for higher level of panna [that can directly experience and truly understand the nature of dhamma]. But panna must develop in their order: if satipatthana does not begin to arise, there will not be the distinction of naama and ruupa through the mind-door [naama- ruupa-pariccheda~na.na]. It all starts from the arising of sati to be aware of lakkha.na of one dhamma arising *now*. It happens naturally, nothing out of ordinary. Like it or not, panna will arise [to truely experience the actual dhamma] corresponding to our understanding. And panna can develop and arise more often. In other words, it is getting more accustomed to, getting used to knowing the characteristics of dhamma, slowly, little by little. The important thing is that we don't let lobha lead us out of the 'path' to wrong practices. For a long time, we have been [, are, and still will be] under the influence of lobha. We do everything that lobha tells us to do. Because of lobha, we do something else and not to be aware of the dhamma that has arisen now. Because we misunderstand that doing something else will lead to true understanding. But this is impossible because we are ignoring the dhamma. Otherwise, it is not said that 'the is only one way' (ekaayanomaggo): the eight-fold path. It must be consistent with our understanding in the level of listening. And because this [satipatthana] is the only way, other moments [that are not satipatthana] are only thinking of dhamma, and not experiencing the characteristics of dhamma [and therefore never lead to right understanding]. But with the right understanding, one day, there will [eventually] be the true undertanding of lakkha.na of dhamma [by satipatthana, and not thinking of dhamma]. Q: Yes. But we almost always think, think and think..until we are tired and fall asleep. ASujin: Yes. And it will continue this way. But when there is a brief moment of sati, it will see the value [of sati] and begin to develop the right understanding. Q: Unfortunately, it is so rare... ASujin: Rarity is a good indication [reminder] of how long we have been in the va.t.ta [cycle of birth and death] without satipa.t.thana. Q. Thank you. 25391 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking Dear Nina: > easy: O yes, now I am thinking. But how far off we are! Good to be reminded. In deed, how far off we are! It is nice to have it pointed out. We can only hope for reminders. :-) Best Regards, jaran 25392 From: jaranoh Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Week 5 (Jul 7, 02) no 7, thinking Dear Azita: > It is interesting to note that each time I listen to tapes that I > brought back from T'land, I find something that I didn't hear before > or that maybe I didn't understand, and now I do understand. May I say that it also happens to me all the time, even with some tapes we have already played countless times. > I've also noted how much lobha I have for listening and reading > and studying the Dhamma. I'm aware of thinking 'O, now I understand > a little more, that's good, I getting better at this'!!! > Lots of lobha and mana, but I guess they can be known for what they > are too. Me, too. (sorry Sarah, for a 'me too' message ;-)). Lobha is also address in this session (week 5 (jul 7 02) no 8). Best Regards, jaran 25393 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Personality view vs. Delusion Hi Victor, Good to talk to you again and thank you for considering what I write;-) You raise some very good points which I’m glad to reflect on further. I think we’re discussing sakkaya ditthi (personality or self views) versus ditthi (wrong views) in general. All of these are eradicated by the sotapanna. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > As I understand it: > Personality view is not the view that "people actually exist". > However, both the views "people actually exist" and "people actually > don't exist" are speculative views, just like the views "there is > self" and "there is no self." [..] .... I understand your point. I believe you are suggesting that the self views or views that “people actually exist” do not strictly speaking fall under the sakkaya ditthi category, but under other speculative views. ..... > What are personality views? They are views identifying oneself with > the conditioned, or delineation of what one is in terms of the > conditioned, such as the five aggregates or six sense bases. A > variety of personality views are formulated or listed in > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.47 > Samanupassana Sutta > Assumptions > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html .... The sutta continues with: "Now, there is the intellect, there are ideas (mental qualities), there is the property of ignorance. To an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person, touched by experience born of the contact of ignorance, there occur (the thoughts): 'I am,' 'I am thus,' 'I shall be,' 'I shall not be,' 'I shall be possessed of form,' 'I shall be formless,' 'I shall be percipient (conscious),' 'I shall be non-percipient,' or 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient.' .... In other words, the specific self/personality views you mention lead to an idea of ‘people actually existing’, as I read it and a way of regarding the world with wrong views (di.t.thisamanupassanaa) . In another sutta in SN, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn41-003.html We read that all speculative (wrong) views depend on self/personality views: "Venerable sir, concerning the various views that arise in the world -- 'The cosmos is eternal' or 'The cosmos isn't eternal'; 'The cosmos is finite' or 'The cosmos is infinite'; 'The soul and the body are the same' or 'The soul is one thing, the body another'; 'A Tathagata exists after death' or 'A Tathagata doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata both exists & doesn't exist after death' or 'A Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death'; these along with the sixty-two views mentioned in the Brahmajala [DN 1] -- when what is present do these views come into being, and when what is absent do they not come into being?" [...] "Concerning the various views that arise in the world, householder... when self-identity view [sakkaaya-di.t.thi] is present, these views come into being; when self-identity view is absent, they don't come into being." ***** In the original sutta quoted by Toby, the Khemaka sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-089.html the question being considered was with regard to the use or concept of self at times of conceit versus times of self view and we discussed how the object is quite different and they cannot arise together. Whereas the sotapanna has no more wrong views of any kind, conceit may continue to arise until arahantship. So, perhaps it’s enough to say that all wrong views depend on sakkaya ditthi and these are all eradicated when the characteristic of anatta is fully realized and nibbana experienced at the first stage of enlightenment? The following sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-047.html also distingushes between self views or ‘regarding with views’ (di.t.thisamanupassanaa) and conceit. B.Bodhi gives a useful footnote on this (61), p.1057, but I digress. I would, however, like to quote B.Bodhi from his introduction (p7) to the Brahmajala sutta, BPS, because I believe these comments are relevant to the comments so far about all (wrong) speculative views being based on self views: ..... “The clinging to being issues in a ‘personality view’ (sakkaayadi.t.thi) affirming the presence of an abiding self in the pyschophysical organism in one of twenty ways: as identical with, possessing, contained within or containing one or another of the five aggregates that constitute the individual personality - material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Arisen already at the pre-reflective level, this view in turn becomes the basis for latter reflective interpretations of existence, crystallizing into the sixty-two views of the sutta. As it is explained: “Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ...and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist” (S 1V 7.3). “Since the notion of selfhood is accepted uncritically at the level of ordinary experience, higher attainments in meditation, as the Brahmajala shows, will not suffice to eliminate the notion but will only reinforce it by providing apparent verification of the self originally presupposed at the outset of practice. It is as if one were to lead a man wearing red-tinted glasses from a small room to an open field. The change of scene will not alter the colour of his vision, for as long as he is wearing red glasses everything he sees will be coloured red.” ***** Nyantiloka’s dictionary also has a useful section under ‘Di.t.thi’ http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/ditthi.htm I’m not sure if you will agree with the quotes from it, Victor, which I’ll add after signing off. As discussed, I think all wrong views are based on self views. Only when these views have been eradicated can other defilements be eradicated and the precepts followed perfectly and so on. I also recommend the chapter on Wrong View in ‘Cetasikas’ by Nina to be found at: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Look forward to any comments. Metta, Sarah ===== “Numerous speculative opinions and theories, which at all times have influenced and still are influencing mankind, are quoted in the sutta-texts. Amongst them, however, the wrong view which everywhere, and at all times, has most misled and deluded mankind is the personality-belief, the ego-illusion. This personality-belief (sakkáya-ditthi), or ego-illusion (atta-ditthi), is of 2 kinds: eternity-belief and annihilation-belief. Eternity-belief (sassata-ditthi) is the belief in the existence of a persisting ego-entity, soul or personality, existing independently of those physical and mental processes that constitute life and continuing even after death. Annihilation-belief (uccheda-ditthi), on the other hand, is the belief in the existence of an ego-entity or personality as being more or less identical with those physical and mental processes, and which therefore, at the dissolution at death, will come to be annihilated. - For the 20 kinds of personality-belief, see sakkáya-ditthi. Now, the Buddha neither teaches a personality which will continue after death, nor does he teach a personality which will be annihilated at death, but he shows us that 'personality', 'ego', 'individual', 'man', etc., are nothing but mere conventional designations (vohára-vacana) and that in the ultimate sense (s. paramattha-sacca) there is only this self-consuming process of physical and mental phenomena which continually arise and again disappear immediately.” ***** 25394 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] correction in spelling Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I just heard that I made a mistake in spelling of Kaeng Krachan. I > wrote: > Kraeng Kacang. .... Thx for telling me this. Originally, Jon told me the correct spelling, but then I changed to your wrong spelling. Now I’ll change back again;-) On a technical point, we can’t change anything in the archives (luckily, otherwise it would be a full-time job correcting my mistakes;-)). Everyone understands that a discussion list and its archives are not edited in anyway. When RobM saved the archives onto files, he wrote a software program (all his holiday time I think) to do this. The cleaning up I referred to were instructions relating to deleting all yahoo ads, yahoo blurb of any kind (hope they’re not reading this;-)), extra space and one or two other things. No text was or is changed in anyway. It’s like a ‘live’ discussion in this regard. If any letters from any discussion list, such as your KK series, are put onto any websites, then I think as a matter of courtesy the poster should be asked and given a chance to make any corrections. I think you’ve also made it clear that Zolag always has the latest corrected editions of any of your books or articles and that other sites or publications should always use these copies. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I’m just mentioning this here as you asked me before to pass this on to RobM or others concerned. So, if you just give the corrections to Alan and others know to use these versions, it should be fine. I know you’re happy for anyone to include them. > If Jon has time would he share with us some meaning explanations in > Parliement Sessions tapes? Or else jot down for me the dates of these > tapes? .... I think he has lots and lots on his i-pod which he listens to when we’re out walking. Perhaps this weekend, he’ll be able to add more - his boss is away and he’s pretty busy these days/weeks - lots of looong meetings and law drafting. We mostly communicate by cryptic emails;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 25395 From: Sarah Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:18am Subject: Hi Sumane (& RobM)! Hi Sumane (& RobM), Good to hear from you and to know you're reading the posts;-) If lurkers just let us know once in a while, it's always good to hear this. --- "Seylan Bank- dbd (Sumane Rathnasuriya)" wrote: > > As a reminder to everyone, RobM has posted word files of the entire > tidied > up archives (almost to date) in the files for anyone who wishes to > download, use these for a search or read through 'like a novel' on an > aeroplane: > > True & Many many Merits to RobM, thereon. .... I know RobM will be glad to read your comment. He was wondering how many people were making use of these files and of course we had no idea. Rob, another member recently expressed an interest in your power point Abhidhamma slides as well. The series on list seems to have come to an abrupt halt, but I expect you're busy travelling. Metta, Sarah ===== 25396 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:24am Subject: Fifth Precept Hello Sarah, Nina and all, I was interested in the Jivaka sutta because of the discussion about the fifth precept. It seemed that some members thought that the precept that says to abstain from alcohol didn't really mean 'nil' intake. The sutta says (in part): "Jivaka, when the lay disciple abstains from destroying living things, taking the not given, from sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from taking intoxicated and brewed drinks, with this much he becomes virtuous" "Yato kho jãvaka, upàsako pàõàtipàtà pañivirato hoti, adinnàdànà pañivirato hoti, kàmesu micchàcàrà pañivirato hoti, musàvàdà pañivirato hoti, suràmerayamajjapamàdaññhànà pañivirato hoti. Ettàvatà kho jãvaka, upàsako sãlavà hotãti." Does 'pañivirato' mean 'abstain'? And does 'abstain' mean 'to forbear or refrain voluntarily, and especially from an indulgence of the passions or appetites'? The same word is used for all the precepts. I wondered, therefore, if it can be disregarded to some extent for the fifth precept - why not for the other four? I don't understand why moderate daily intake of alcohol is O.K., but moderate daily killing, theft, lying, and sexual misconduct isn't suggested as O.K. also. metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > op 17-09-2003 10:46 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > > Btw, Chris, you mentioned the Jivaka sutta (On Being a Lay Follower) and > > mentioned you were looking at the Pali too;-) Would you kindly share some > > of the sutta and your study and reflections? I was also glad Derek helped > > untangle the different numbering systems. > N: Yes, I would like to see it too, the more Pali the better. > Nina 25397 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Jim > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, Jim: When you write (as you have before) about the difference between concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. Jon: Hmmm, puzzling. The list appears to be a list of the cetasikas accompanying a particular akusala citta. I have no idea which cetasika is represented by the term 'samatha' here. I've checked the relevant section of TPOP/Vism at XIV, 159-178 but cannot find any similar mention. The closest thing I can see is the factor of 'steadiness of consciousness' at 176, 177, described as a weak form of concentration (but the Pali is not given). Any thoughts? Jim: Also, on another point you make, I wonder if it's possible that jhaanic states could ever be classified as akusala since they are not classified as such in this category in Dhs. However, I can see how they could serve as conditions for future unwholesome states. Jon: As I understand it, where concentration is developed by virtue of the development of kusala citta, and is developed to the level of jhana, them the jhanic states will be kusala. In any other case, however, where concentration is developed it will not be kusala and so any ensuing jhanic state will also be akusala. I of course agree that the references we read in the texts are (almost) invariably to jhana that is kusala (the Buddha never encouraged the development of akusala of any kind under any circumstances). Because the context is so obvious it does not need to be stated. This however doesn't help the person who sets out to development concentration. How does he/she learn to distinguish kusala from subtle akusala? It cannot be determined simply by the nature of the object of his/her consciousness, nor by a comparison with his/her more 'normal' level of akusala; either of these would simply be an assumption/inference/deduction. My point is just that there is nothing in concentration itself that makes it more likely to be kusala that akusala (the factors that make up the jhana factors can arise with either kusala or akusala cittas). On the other hand, the strength of our accumulated tendencies is such that there is a much greater chance of the consciousness being akusala than kusala. There is considerable danger involved in getting it wrong! Jon 25398 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, > Jim > > > --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Jim: > When you write (as you have before) about the difference between > concentration and samatha, you seem to take samatha as never being an > akusala dhamma in the way that concentration can in order to show the > difference between the two. Yet, from my reading of the Dhammasangani > §365 etc, 'samatha' is included in with the same akusala dhamma as > wrong concentration, one pointedness of mind, etc. See Buddhist > Psychological Ethics, p. 91 'quiet'. > > Jon: > Hmmm, puzzling. The list appears to be a list of the cetasikas > accompanying a particular akusala citta. I have no idea which > cetasika is represented by the term 'samatha' here. The translation of 'samatha' in the list is 'quiet'. This is explained at Dhs §395 in the Pali but the translation on p.95 refers you back to §375 on p. 92 which in turn refers back to §11 on p. 11 for 'self-collectedness' (cittass'ekaggataa). Instead of calling them cetasikas, the Dhs calls them aruupino (immaterial) dhammas in order to include citta. There are many more aruupino dhammas (about twice as many) as the standard list of 52 cetasikas. The Expositor explains how all these extra dhammas (except citta) are reduced to the list of 52. Samatha is included in the cetasika one-pointedness (ekaggataa). Buddhist Psychological Ethics is lacking in some respects eg. Mrs. Rhys Davids didn't bother to translate the last ka.n.da or chapter as she didn't think it had any value!! > I've checked the relevant section of TPOP/Vism at XIV, 159-178 but > cannot find any similar mention. The closest thing I can see is the > factor of 'steadiness of consciousness' at 176, 177, described as a > weak form of concentration (but the Pali is not given). 'steadiness of consciousness' (citta.t.thiti or cittassa .thiti) is also included in the description of one-pointedness of mind and samatha in the Dhs. Jim 25399 From: Date: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fifth Precept Hi, Christine (and Sarah and Nina) - In a message dated 9/18/03 5:24:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Sarah, Nina and all, > > I was interested in the Jivaka sutta because of the discussion about > the fifth precept. It seemed that some members thought that the > precept that says to abstain from alcohol didn't really mean 'nil' > intake. The sutta says (in part): "Jivaka, when the lay disciple > abstains from destroying living things, taking the not given, from > sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from taking intoxicated and > brewed drinks, with this much he becomes virtuous" > > "Yato kho jãvaka, upàsako pàõàtipàtà pañivirato hoti, adinnàdànà > pañivirato hoti, kàmesu micchàcàrà pañivirato hoti, musàvàdà > pañivirato hoti, suràmerayamajjapamàdaññhànà pañivirato hoti. > Ettàvatà kho jãvaka, upàsako sãlavà hotãti." > > Does 'pañivirato' mean 'abstain'? And does 'abstain' mean 'to > forbear or refrain voluntarily, and especially from an indulgence of > the passions or appetites'? The same word is used for all the > precepts. I wondered, therefore, if it can be disregarded to some > extent for the fifth precept - why not for the other four? I don't > understand why moderate daily intake of alcohol is O.K., but > moderate daily killing, theft, lying, and sexual misconduct isn't > suggested as O.K. also. > > metta and peace, > > Christine > ============================= If I may butt in: I agree with you, Christine - truly abiding by any of these precepts implies complete abstention. Partial abstention is a partial abiding. That may take two forms: 1) Moderating the degree to which one executes the action, but never or rarely abstaining from it entirely, and 2) Completely abstaining at some times at which there is the active inclination not indulge, but not abstaining at other times. (At the times that one actively abstains,, one is then abiding by the precept). The thing is, as I see it, a) none of us is perfect, and b) not all precept violations are equally serious. Common sense does play a role. Killing a scorpion that is about to sting a child is not as serious as as taking a drink or two before driving a car - in fact, my choice would be to take the bad kamma upon myself by killing that scorpion if there is no other recourse. [And I spend a lot of time escorting insects from the house. The other day, while I was taking a bath, a large black ant crawled to the shower top above my bath water, and then fell into the water. I scooped the ant out of the tub to save it from drowning, I got out of the tub, used a paper cup to capture the ant, and, after throwing on some clothes ;-), escorted the ant out of the house. Then I returned to the bath. So, normally, I will expend some effort to save life. But, in a context such as I indicated, I would reluctantly take a life.] And having a glass of wine with one's meal is not as serious a violation as, for example, lying for monetary gain - nowhere *nearly* as serious. We all violate one precept or another, in some way or other, to some degree or other, at some time or other, not being ariyans. We should, of course, attempt do our best, but I think we should be moderate in our judging how others do - and even not be too tough on ourselves. It was Barry Goldwater who said, and was roundly chastised for saying, "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice". I think he was right in saying this, but not if "extremism" implies obsession. To be obsessive is a form of grasping and excess, I believe. I think we must be firm in our efforts, but with an ease of mind. I rush to interject that I ABSOLUTELY DON'T mean that you are being obsessive about the precepts - in fact I think you are NOT; you are just properly and usefully raising the issue of exactly what it means to abide by a precept, and I'm glad you raised this issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra)