28200 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:18pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi James, I just finished reading your response and I appreciate the time you put into it. There are so many points I would like to address and clarify, some of them would be good to discuss in separate posts. But that would take a lot of energy and time which I don't have. So I have decided to just intersperse comments between yours. It is going to be very long, so I will freely snip some parts of your post to make it less so. Going straight to it. > Your writing style is more `stream of consciousness', a style I greatly enjoy in > writers like Kerouac and Ginsberg, but takes a lot of effort to decipher. > Maybe I don't take the effort I should sometimes because there are so > many posts to read in this group! ;-) S: I lack clarity of mind, and I tend to get lost in thoughts or otherwise stuck on one object. Any understanding that arises, come in between quite a muddled brain. That is me, James. I wish I could be more `centered', but I guess that will come only when and if the kilesas have been substantially reduced. > Sukin: There was no doubt about the "content" and value of Abhidhamma > as against scientific materialist views, but the concern was about > one's own understanding of the Buddha's teachings and whether one is > going to be forever *stuck* on the theoretical level?! Or worse, one > is under the illusion that one *is* making progress. > > James: Excellent! I say that these are good doubts. Stick with > them and ponder them more. I had these same doubts when I first read > Nina's writings about the Abhidhamma and then became even more > convinced of their validity as my participation in this group > continued. I have quit a couple of times, because I obviously don't > belong, but I keep getting called back. Go figure?? ;-) (I guess: > What fun is discussion when everyone agrees with each other? ;-) S: `Stick with them' James? I think this is the mistake of `clinging', no? There may be what you call `good doubts' arising, but I believe that once the mind has proliferated, it can't be kusala or good. Then `doubt' (the usual one) starts to take control, assisted by avijja and clinging to self. I'll say some more about this later on in this post. > Sukin: I guess my answer is `not to think too much'! :-/ Don't grasp at > anything while studying and contemplating. Labeling or guessing will > take place, just knowing them even intellectually as just that, is > good enough for now. > > James: Hmm…it doesn't sound like you are too confident in this > answer. Does this really satisfy you? Personally, it sounds like > you are saying that you need to think and not think at the same time, > to have the concepts and labels in your mind but to somehow not have > them. How are you supposed to accomplish this? Personally, I don't > believe this is possible. S: This needs some clarification; I was vague in my last post. Like I said I was thinking about Herman's comment. I realized that the labeling and guessing was inevitable, as in automatic. It was not like I `chose' to do it, but rather that because I `learnt' the theory, in practice because of the lack of firm understanding and lobha seeking to latch upon any form of `meaning', the process was inevitable. Believing that there is no other way but to rely on `pariyatti' and so allowing for such labeling to continue taking place, I figured that I should not make it worse, encouraging doubt by engaging in `too much `thinking'' and/or have any aversive reaction. Also, depending on how one grasps at the theory, that much is the likelihood that one will be labeling etc. Of course there is no one who can control any of this ;-). Does this clarify? > Sukin: However I do believe that an appreciation for its value is a > sign of understanding the Buddha's teachings. And I apologize if this > is a presumption, but I think that "you" do too. Your objection is > only to certain aspects which I believe you should not dismiss, but > instead keep an open mind and allow for the possibility that you will > agree with it in the future.;-) > > James: This is a little presumptuous, but that is okay. I have > varying degrees of acceptance and non-acceptance of different aspects > of the Abhidhamma which I am not going to enumerate now or it would > put you to sleep! ;-). However, you way you state it you seem to > assume that I am predominately in favor of the Abhidhamma but there > are small aspects I don't agree with and, given time and enough > wisdom, I may agree with them. First, that isn't correct, I > officially reject the entire Abhidhamma on principal (if any of it is > wrong, then the whole thing is wrong: which is the proper standard of > judging the dhamma). S: This requires some explanation. Abhidhamma may be seen as a `group' of teachings as in a `particular' method of classifying all of known reality, or it can be seen as a collection of books as in the 7 main books and their commentaries. Seen as such it is easy for us worldlings to have an `attractive/repulsive' reaction toward it. But this is taking what is taught in it as a subject divorced from actual experience. However when one starts to apply what is read onto real life, whether directly or just through contemplation, it is no more seen as a `subject' to learn or a `philosophy' to agree or disagree with. One may still see inconsistencies, but that proves nothing, as so much depends on one's own power of comprehension. If one must doubt, make the object, one's own understanding. One may want to prove to oneself if the Abhidhamma is consistent with the other two pitakas. First of all, it is more likely that one's faith and understanding of these other two Pitakas is not even that great to start with. In fact it seems to me that for some, the sudden faith in the Suttas arose only in reaction to their preconceptions about the Abhidhamma. (I am not saying that you or anyone on dsg is caught in this process) ;-). But for me, thanks to K. Sujin and all the fine members of this list, I have come to see in part, that the three pitakas have `one taste', and that they do not contradict one another. And it is with this view that I see that you actually *do* agree with what is taught in the Abhidhamma. The Four NTs, the 8FP, DO, Brahmaviharas are taught in all three Pitakas and I know that you agree with all these. ;-) The outward sign is that you are still here and enjoying the discussions lol. Your main qualm is about Rupas, and this I may come back to later in this post. And I think you overreact when you say: "if any of it is wrong, then the whole thing is wrong: which is the proper standard of judging the dhamma". You are in effect, making it harder to approach it directly, I think. > Second, I have a question for you: Do you have > an open mind and entertain the possibility that I am correct and that > the Abhidhamma is a false teaching? Do you think that maybe sometime > in the future you will learn the error of your thinking and turn away > from the Abhidhamma? Would that even be possible or would your mind > be too far indoctrinated with its concepts and labels? (Sorry for > the melodrama! LOL! "Luke, turn away from the dark side of the > Force." Hehehe..) S: After reading the above, do you still want an answer? > James: I didn't know at the time that this came from the Abhidhamma, I thought it was a kind of meditation technique. Ajahn Somporn's English wasn't so great. I attempted to do what he said and found myself very frustrated in the process. It seemed like I was trying to put a new head on top of the one I already have! S: Of course this is not the way. Please refer to Sarah's post to Htoo. That is how I see the role of Abhidhamma and in general `Pariyatti' to be. One does not go about trying to `catch realities' and attempt to identify them. In fact I have been thinking along these lines these past few days and this morning when I saw Ben's post to Jon, it reminded me. I am thinking about how we get carried away by what we read in the Tipitaka and see any description of reality as something we must *get* or *achieve*. This is the worldly mind which is so used to having a greed/aversive reaction to any experience, seeking to get something and to reaching some goal. We do the same thing with Dhamma. But this is what the Buddha had been trying to warn us against. I need to go for my weekly massage, Num calls it the `lazy man's yoga' ;-). I will send this part off and will come back to the rest of your post later. Metta, Sukin. 28201 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from a new member Hi Philip, --- philofillet wrote: > > > Time to introduce myself properly, after popping in briefly the > other day. .... It’s a great intro too. Let me join Christine and Nina in welcoming you to DSG and to thank you for sharing so much about your practice and lifestyle. It sounds like you have a very healthy lifestyle in Japan (whereabouts?). Jon and I had a couple of hiking trips in Japan and loved it, but that was quite some time back. Nina lived in Tokyo for a few years and RobertK lives there now, teaching at a uni in the south. Perhaps you’ll meet him sometime. ..... <...> > I'll be away through the holidays, but I look forward to learning > more from you as I get my fledgling practice going. Since there > doesn't seem to be much in the way of Theravada in Japan, I will be > relying on books and groups like this for the time being. .... Good - let us know if we can help with anything. You might like to take a look at RobertK’s websites also - plenty of useful material that can be downloaded: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ We always welcome any qus or comments as you’re already contributing. You may like to look at Nina’s book, ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’ on one of these websites. Robert’s students are also translating it into Japanese. Some of the books can be bought from Pariyatti very easily and the postage costs are very reasonable from memory. http://www.pariyatti.com/ Also Wisdom and Amazon distribute to Asia. I believe we purchased copies of Nina’s book from Wisdom U.K. .... >If anyone > has information about Theravada in Japan, other than the temple in > Shibuya and the meditation center in Kyoto that I already know about, > I would be grateful to hear it. .... I believe there are also a couple of other lurking/occasional posting members at least in Japan. If you say where you live and work, they may have further suggestions. If you visit Hong Kong anytime and want to go for a walk, let us know - we get well away from the fast cars;-) Meanwhile, I look forward to more of your contributions here. Metta, Sarah ====== 28202 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >.... Back by popular demand! ;-) .... ;-) I’m also enjoying your discussion with Sukin (Herman & Ken H). Very glad to see you quoting further suttas from Devatasamyutta there as well. I hope others (Sukin et al, Christine et al...) will read SN with us and contribute extracts. .... > James 2: <...> It isn't enough to just think "Oh, there is no self; > there is only the present moment; there are only transient > phenomena." That is just a belief. .... >It isn't enough to have this belief; it has to be > known for oneself, to be directly experienced. .... Agreed;-) ..... James2>The only way to do > that is to have a mind which can really focus and concentrate on the > present moment; .... I know that focus is often used in translations, such as in the Satipatthana sutta. However, if one looks at the real meaning, it is wisdom and awareness that are being referred to. “Wisdom is the source of light in the world; Mindfulness, in the world, is the wakeful one;” SN, Devatasamyuta, 80 (10) I quoted a passage from the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta to Htoo which indicated that ‘necessary in all circumstances’ referred to every and any state or time, including ‘sluggish and unbalanced’ states of mind. Sukin mentioned that he’s often unfocussed on the task at hand (or sth like that). This may be a problem for certain kinds of concentration as we think of it, but not for the development of satipatthana which can have any reality as object, accompanied by rt concentration at any moments of understanding and awareness. This is the meaning of ‘sati sampajanna’, so often translated as contemplation or focussing. ..... James2>and the only way to develop that, for most people, is > to practice Buddhist meditation. This is what I believe and I am > pretty sure it is what the Buddha taught and intended (It would have > been nice if he had been really, really specific so that no questions > could ever be raised about this subject, but specifics wouldn't have > fit everyone and every situation). ..... I think the teachings are really, really specific, but what we can understand is limited by our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. Any comment or statement of the Buddha’s can and is mis-interpreted accordingly. .... > James 2: <...> > I > believe that the Buddha is saying that the Bhikkhu should be mindful > of everything .... i.e. any nama or rupa to be specific;-) .... James2: >that occurs, right at this very moment, as if he had > been stabbed with a sword or his head was on fire and his life > depended on it. Nothing will bring a person to the present moment > like an emergency! However, being mindful of non self isn't truly > being mindful, it is a belief. How can a person be mindful of what > he doesn't know yet? That type of mindfulness is an artificial, > mental construct and is not what the Buddha intended, I believe. .... Agreed;-) ... James2>It > is also not a mental construct that inspires a sense of emergency; > heck, to you it inspires a belief that there is no control. Since > there is no one to do anything about it, one might as well die on the > sword or let the head burn up! LOL! (just kidding). .... Agreed that mere thinking and mental constructs do not of themselves lead anywhere. It would also be painful and burning wrong view to act as you suggest:;-( It comes back to that ‘everything’, the namas and rupas to be known more and more specifically. .... > James 2: I don't believe that right concentration is ever present > when there are pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Right concentration > needs to be accompanied by equanimity or it isn't right > concentration. ..... It’s true as you say that rt concentration (and all good cittas) are accompanied by equanimity. However, these will also be accompanied by either neutral or pleasant feeling. There are lots of textual references to rt concentration with pleasant feeling and joy (as I was discussing with Michael). “Faith is here a man’s best treasure; Dhamma practised well brings happiness*; Truth is really the sweetest of tastes; One living by wisdom they say lives best.” *I’m sure this would refer to ‘good’ pleasant feeling and joy. Also note, even the first 2 jhanas are accompanied by pleasant feeling and joy. .... James2>Sure, I could concentrate really hard on killing > someone (like my landlady! Heheh..Just kidding ;-) but that wouldn't > be right concentration and it wouldn't develop wisdom. Conversely, I > could concentrate really hard on winning the lottery but that > wouldn't be right concentration and wouldn't create wisdom either. <...> .... Exactly and well put! In other words, it is not the degree of concentration or the pleasant feeling which determines the good or bad states as these can accompany kusala and akusala cittas. (Hope there’s a little metta for your landlady these days - it will automatically be accompanied by rt concent without any focussing or concentrating as you mena it;-)) ... James2> For me, right > concentration only occurs when I am meditating on a neutral object, > like the sensation of the breath or a candle flame, and my > concentration is accompanied by equanimity. From this practice, I > will more naturally develop equanimity when experiencing everyday > events and then have right mindfulness. .... Even neutral feeling cannot be any guide. There could be concentrating on an object with awareness or with ignorance at such a time. There can also be attachment at these times with indifferent feeling which is not as strong as with pleasant feeling. Only awareness and wisdom can know at any moment, not by thinking in terms of conceptual frameworks but by directly knowing these different states that change all the time. ..... <...> James2 >And because I don't > have that much right concentration I don't have that much right > mindfulness in my daily life. I would be the first to admit that I > am one flawed individual! ;-) But, hey, I keep trying…that is all I > can do. .... These are wise comments. If there is no seeing and knowing the flaws when they are apparent and recognizing how very little mindfulness and knowledge there really is in a day, it’s difficult for there to be any progress. More and more flaws to be known in between seeing and hearing and so on. Bubbles and so on - not James’s or Sarah’s;-) “Truly, the wise do not pretend, For they have understood the way of the world” Devatasamyutta, 35(5) as you first quoted;-) .... <......big snip to set a good example;-)> .... > S: So what are the right conditions for enlightenment? The good friend > (s), Hearing dhamma, wise consideration etc. > ... > James2: Yes, these are important factors because they help to > condition right concentration and right mindfulness. Perhaps with > those few exceptional individuals just those things you list would be > enough. The power of concentration and mindfulness is already there > and they just need a few more right conditions. I know that for > myself I am not that fortunate. I must strive diligently for every > tiny scrap of wisdom that I can gain. .... It seems this way for us all. I mean, it seems there really is a ‘ME’ that can and must strive. But when we think like this, it is another conceptual framework or a view that this is so rather than any direct awareness as we think and speak. .... James2 >I work so hard at it because I > know that I have a lot of hard work to do. <...> .... It’s OK, and as you’ve said before, there may be many different benefits for you in sitting quietly. However, when there is the trying to focus or trying to be mindful or working so hard, who is focussing and working at these times? .... > James 2: ..... I don't really think > that I am being greedy by wanting the grand stream; I just feel that > anything less isn't enough. Sure I appreciate every little drop of > wisdom, and I want them to collect over time, but I also want the dam > to break and the skies to just pour…to carry me to the other side of > the shore. .... And what is this wanting if it isn’t attachment? ;-) ..... James2> .... I > don't think that I can just passively expect this to happen or that > just by will power alone I am going to be able to see the ultimate > reality of the present moment. I have to create the right conditions > for this to happen. .... ‘I have to create’?? .... James2 >For me, Buddhist meditation is one of those > right conditions. And sorry, but I don't think the Abhidhamma > adequately describes the present moment either. Sure, it has some > good parts and some truths, but it also has some falsehoods I believe > (rupa being a significant one). ..... That’s OK.....plenty of rupas will creep up on us as we progress through SN and look at the sections on the khandhas, the elements, the sense bases and so on. I’m happy to stick to quotations from the section we’re studying for these discussions;-) ..... J2 > Metta and appreciation for your hospitality and friendliness, ..... Thank you. Metta, Sarah p.s I was very glad to read that you are following the Vism extracts and Qus. I think we can just leave the pace to Larry and Nina as they are the main contributors and understand each other. They’ll be glad if you comment or ask any qus. You can always ask Jon or Nina or anyone for clarifications in simple English too;-) We can set our own pace on the SN thread and add as many or few quotes as we like. Btw, devatasamyutta is easily the longest chapter in the Sagathavagga (Book with verses) section, so take your time. I also recall the Sagathavagga was the hardest part for B.Bodhi to translate because of all the verses. ==================================================== 28203 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Dear Eddie Lou, Thanks for your interest in Dhamma. Sarah has linked the site for easy access and see her post ( Msg ) #28193. Or number (09) is at (Mag ) # 27992 and you can go to there. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Hello, Htoo Naing, > I am not sure if I miss the #09 for this Great series > you are unravelling for us all. If I did, can you do > me a favor, can you please repost it ? > Thanks, > > You know, I also came from Myanmar. > > Eddie Lou > > --- Htoo Naing wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > The Dhamma practitioner is practising Kayanupassana > ............ > > May you all practise Vipassana to attain beneficial > > effects > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing 28204 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > HOWEVER, it is > focussed > meditation, formal samatha bhavana, that is the primary cultivational > tool, on a > base of calming sila, making the mind a fit, malleable instrument for > the > investigation of dhammas and the cultivation of insight. The Buddha put > enormous > emphasis on this. ..... I was hesitant to respond as I’m not sure I can add anything new on this line, but nonetheless....conditions rule;-) With all due respect (and I do respect all your comments as being very well-considered), I think the Buddha put ‘enormous emphasis’ on understanding the value of all kinds of wholesome states and in showing that only the ‘cultivation of insight’ leads to the final goal. Any wholesome states can be an aid or conditioning factor for insight to arise, but they can also be a conditioning factor for wrong view of self and attachment too, as in ‘MY great generosity’ and so on if there isn't any clear knowledge of the various states, more and more precisely. So the understanding and detachment has to begin at this moment which sees more and more clearly the value of wholesome states including samatha and recognising the attachment, wrong views of self being calm, pleasant feeling, concentration and so on which are so often mistakenly seen as being samatha or bhavana. You were having a useful discussion with Christine on impermanence. As I understand it, it is only by the development of detachment to conditioned realities and the understanding of them as anatta that sati can arise with sufficient precision and frequency for panna to know the impermanent nature of these same namas and rupas. Otherwise, like now, there may be a moment of awareness of a reality or characteristic, but this is bound to be followed by ideas of ‘things’ and ‘people’ again. As you said, ‘No conditioned state remains, and, hence, there is nothing to cling to.’ We can just have a theoretical idea now of the sense of this, but as panna develops it can directly understand the conditioned and impermanent nature of these realities, including the very 'pure' ones. But this can only be by the path of detachment from whatever is conditioned at this moment, not by focussing or concentrating on specific objects as I see it. Any bhavana, whether samatha or vipassana, has to begin with understanding. With understanding, the bhavana takes care of itself, whether sitting ‘formally’ or not. Do you have a copy of SN, Howard? I’d be delighted (and I know James would too) if you could continue to chip in anytime. Here's one you'll like under Devatasamyutta, Old Age, 51(1): [A devata:] "What is good until old age? What is good when established? What is the precious gem of humans? What is hard for thieves to steal?" [The Blessed One;] "Virtue is good until old age; Faith is good when established; Wisdom is the precious gem of humans; Merit is hard for thieves to steal." Metta, Sarah ====== 28205 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminders [ho ho ho] Hi Azita (Sukin & Howard), --- gazita2002 wrote: > Dear All, > > Here is a different reminder and the 'ho ho ho' will be obvious > [maybe] given the time of year that we're in: > > The Early Teachers [cited at Vism XI,23] > > The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, > Hard, soft, whatever it may be: > Through one door it is loaded in, > Through nine it trickles out again. .... ;-) Repulsiveness in Nutriment - a good reflection for the waist-line at this time of year too;-) (hi, Sukin, this reflection could be the answer to your prayers...) (Howard: VismX1 lots more on nutriment and nutritive essence, also see n2) Thanks Azita, Metta & ho, ho, ho holidays, Sarah ===== 28206 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:51am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi James, Continued….. S: The truth about anatta and conditionality must apply to this very moment. Greed and ignorance is not dissociated from the mind that decides to *do* something. Even someone who studies the Abhidhamma and appears to understand it to some degree, often ends up asking, "So now I know, what next?!" I realize that it is very hard to get over this tendency, and how else would such a `blind spot' ever be revealed, except when some wise friend points it out to us. > I got the impression that > he didn't do this type of meditation either but he felt obligated to > teach it to me. Now I know why. The Abhidhamma does have some > powerful influence in Thailand. S: You will be surprised to know how most Thais feel about the Abhidhamma. It is in Burma rather, that the Abhidhamma has much influence, not in Thailand. > The Abhidhamma attempts to explain `The World' in a way that the > Buddha did not. Allow me to quote part of one of my favorite suttas > that I have quoted before in this group (and include the notes this > time) SN, Devaputtasamyutta, 26. Rohitassa "…It is, friend, in just > this fathom-long carcass endowed with perception and mind that I make > known the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, > and the way leading to the cessation of the world…. > Now, According to the Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are separate from > each other and exist independently, with their own characteristics > and are ultimate. I completely disagree and believe that this > thinking is contrary to what the Buddha taught. I am not interested > in descriptions of any world separate from the world of human > experience. S: I have absolutely no confidence in my ability to interpret Suttas, but I will say what I understand about this Sutta as compared to Abhidhamma. We all have a `world view' and take whatever we experience as belonging to either ours or other. We arrange and rearrange the world as per our ignorance and wrong view and proliferate into believing in all sorts of ideas about self in relation to the world. The sutta in my estimation, is not talking about what exists ultimately, but that within this same body that the illusion has been created, is the enlightenment possible. The teaching of Abhidhamma as I understand it, is descriptive of *all* possible realities. So it talks about not only what is within the range of `humans', but the realities that are and which is within the range of devas, petas, rupabrahmas, arupabrahmas and so on. In other words it does not particularly talk about *this world*, but all possible worlds. So its description of the material world (of rupa), deals with its own conditioned nature some of which is not dependent on your or my existence, let alone perception. We have all been conditioned since ever and reinforced in this particular lifetime by science to view the material world quite differently from what it actually is. When I first heard about Rupa I was dazed, and the thought came to my mind that the day I understand Abhidhamma rupa, is the day I have significantly come to understand the Buddha's teachings. I still don't understand it, but I do sometimes notice my old conditioned ways of interpretation and attempt to understand. The `kalapa' for example, is often `visualized' as if it was something like an atom or something. But this is wrong. I realize that we are primary visual beings, but imagine a blind and deaf person, how these would try to `make sense' of the world? As I visualize a kalapa, wouldn't a blind person do so in terms of tangibility and sound? The scientist is a deluded worldling just like you and me, but he has managed to convince all of us of his world view. Of course we agree with him. But we need to change that. James for a start, can you accept that Rupa is that part of experience which "does not know"? If so, can you now start to see or at least visualize :-/, that each of them, earth, water, life faculty, feminity, etc. all have distinct characteristics? If so, do you believe that they exist when they do? Do you see any significance with the 28 rupa classification? Why didn't Buddha classify only the primary element plus perhaps space as some then existent philosophies did? I think the fact is that all these exist and no one else had the insight to know it. Science for example, attributes as `property of' to objects "seen". They are labeled as iron, oxygen, water etc. and characteristic of hardness and viscosity etc. are attributed to them. This is clearly being taken by the `concepts'. I think we are all conditioned to view in this way and so when first hearing about Rupa, our initial reaction is of non acceptance. What do you think? >You think factors > like "Right Speech" and "Right Livelihood" are simply mental > factors? That isn't true. Right speech is speaking rightly, with > one's mouth…or pen. Understand? Right Livelihood is working > rightly, with one's body, in order to gain sustenance. These are > pretty common sense things. It seems that you are creating some kind > of lofty, esoteric idea out of the Eightfold Path which isn't > necessary. It is quite fine the way it is. S: When I first heard about it I had more or less the same question as you. If I remember right I even bet with Mike when he was here, that it is not the case, and we asked K. Sujin, and I was proved wrong. Consider this, can there be any of the other `Rights' without Rt. View? And then when considering each you will see that one cannot be without the others except for the three virati cetasikas, including the two you mentioned above, (yes they are cetasikas), the third being Rt. Action. The main five factors arise each time a reality (paramattha dhamma) is the object, meaning during Satipatthana. The three mentioned above arise only during enlightenment and they serve the function of eradicating the defilements at the corresponding level of Stream Entry and so on. Does this make sense? > I don't know what a `path moment' is but it isn't the way the Buddha > categorized the Eightfold Path. He described the Eightfold Path as a > vehicle. For support I turn again to SN, Devatasamyutta (Sorry, I am > studying it at this time; I'm sure there are other examples) 46. > Nymphs: > > …"'The straight way' that path is called, > And `fearless' is its destination. > The chariot is called `unrattling' > Fitted with wheels of wholesome states. > > The sense of shame is its leaning board, > Mindfulness its upholstery; > I call the Dhamma the charioteer > With right view running out in front. > > One who has such a vehicle- > Whether a woman or a man- > Has, by means of this vehicle, > Drawn close to Nibbana. > (Note 102: Having completed the discourse (the verse), the Buddha > taught the Four Noble Truths, and at the end of that discourse the > deva was established in the fruit of stream-entry; the other beings > present attained the fruits that accorded with their own supporting > conditions.)" S: The above explanation can apply here I think. > No the Eightfold Path is not like steps to follow; I never said > that. But I do believe that all of the factors of the path are > different and don't necessarily all come together at the same time or > in the same way. Of course they must all come together, in the > proper way, for the vehicle to carry a person. S: In terms of the development of kusala which accumulates as Parami, I agree that it is necessary to develop them otherwise one can never reach the other shore. But the N8P is different and is not something to be developed in this same way. > James: How does one `try out' the Abhidhamma? I don't understand > your meaning. To me that would mean that I would need to stop > meditating and attempt to have `path moments' during everyday > experience by labeling nama and rupa when I notice them. Right? I > have already attempted to incorporate the Abhidhamma into meditation > and I found it impossible. What would you suggest I do? I am > willing to try anything if I understand what you mean. It doesn't > seem to me that those who follow the Abhidhamma have any kind of > practice whatsoever except studying the dhamma and discussing it. To > me, that's more like a book club than the dhamma-sangha. Sorry, I chose the wrong expression, of course you can't tell anyone to try Abhidhamma, it is not a `thing' that one can move towards. It is the understanding and that cannot be made to arise. Let me just say, stick with this group and notice any aversive reaction when ever they arise and not let it control you. Just don't make up your mind about it. ;-) > Metta, James Metta, Sukin. 28207 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:01am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Ken, I am happy that you appreciate my post and the starting of this thread. :-) Tomorrow I will be a bit busy and the day after I go for a short vacation. So can I pass on the baton to you. ;-) Happy holidays to everyone. Metta, Sukin. > Thanks for starting this thread. Apart from "well said" > and "me too," I don't have much to add at this stage. > (Lost for words.) 28208 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: Ho! Ho! HO! Merry X'mas!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Ho! Ho! HO! > Merry X'mas!! Hi Star Kid Sandy! Merry Christmas to you too! Hope you have a nice one. Let me get to your questions: Did the Buddha celebrate christmas? Answer: No, the Buddha lived and died before the birth of Jesus. What did the Buddha do at christmas? Answer: Well, to the Buddha it wasn't any special type of holiday. On that day I would imagine that he taught the dhamma, by word or example, like he did every day. Is there any special food that the Buddha and his men eat in different festivals/seasons? Answer: The Buddha and his monks (which included women) would eat whatever lay followers would offer to them. The texts often describe that when someone made a special feast for the Buddha and his sangha, they would serve "delicious hard and soft foods". I don't know what that means exactly. The Buddha and his monks were not supposed to enjoy the food anyway; they were just supposed to eat it to keep the body strong for final liberation. What did you mean when you said "The Buddha wanted to know if there was any way to stop this process?" Answer: The Buddha saw that life was suffering: one is born only to grow old, sick, and die, suffering the entire time. This may be hard for you to understand because you are young and the world, including you, seems like it will last forever, but it won't. And when you get to the end of your life you will wonder: What was it all for? Well, the Buddha had the strong hindsight to know what was coming and he wanted to do something about it. He wanted to end this process of suffering, for himself and everyone. He discovered that we suffer because we are born, and we are born because we crave existence, and we crave existence because we are ignorant of the truth. So, if one discovers the truth, the craving goes away, the ignorance goes away, and birth goes away. He had found the solution! Most people don't like to hear this solution because they want to have lasting peace and individual life also, but the Buddha discovered that that isn't possible. To end the suffering means that one must give up the desire to exist, to give up the desire to exist one must realize that there is no `self' which exists anyway. It is a figment of the imagination. A lie and a phantom that ignorance tells us is real. This lie causes the universal suffering. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year too! Take care and be safe. Metta, James 28209 From: philofillet Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings from a new member --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Philip, > Let me join Christine and Nina in welcoming you > to DSG ____ Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate your warm welcome. The depth of knowledge and experience in this group is very impressive. I'm sure I will learn a lot, and will be very happy to be the befuddled but eager beginner full of questions - I guess every good Sangha needs a few of those, right? :) I look forward to getting to know you all better in 2004, The Year of the Monkey! (Promises to be a good year for me and my chattering mind. I will teach the monkey to rest more often next year.) With Metta, Philip 28210 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: On more questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James' > Thank you for a reply for each letter and for each > Hi Star Kid Janet! I am glad that you enjoyed the photo. It is a very lovely temple to visit. Maybe you will get to see it someday. Okay, let me get to your questions: 1 Why do sports bore you? Answer: I don't know; I'm just weird I guess! :P Actually, I have never liked any kind of games, ever since I was a little boy. I don't like card games, board games, video games, not any kind of games. They just seemed silly to me, and pointless. Maybe because I didn't care if I won or lost, it seemed unimportant. I would always come up with creative and interesting things for me and my friends to do instead of playing games and sports…and some of those things got me into a lot of trouble! Hehehe… 2 Are you a student of buddha? Answer: Yes, I am. And I am still learning. 3 If buddha is still alive now, how old is he? Answer: The Buddha isn't still alive. He died when he was eighty years old, about 2,500 years ago. Will you celebrate Christmas? Answer: No. I hope you have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Take care and stay safe. Metta, James 28211 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: Buddhism questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > James and everyone else: > > Thanx for your explanation about killing life. Anyway, > can you answer a few more questionx? > > 1. In many comic strips and cartoons, they give me an > image that all monks know a lot of kungfu, that means > they know a lot about fighting and karate and Judo and > all that stuff. Do you need to know these things in > order to become a monk? > > 2. They also say that monks spend lots and lots of > time to practice kungfu on top of hills. Is that true? > Is it necessary for you to do it? > > Thanx for answering. Thanx a lot. > > Philip > Hi Star Kid Philip! I will group both of your questions together and give you one answer. The depictions you are seeing of Buddhist monks are of monks in the past and in only certain parts of the world. Buddhist monks in China developed a form of martial arts called Shao Lin, from which Kung Fu originates. It is said that when Bodhidharma traveled from India to China he found that the Buddhist monks there were lazy and had incorrect translations of the Buddhist scriptures. After some time, he taught them the art of Kung Fu to unify their minds and strengthen their bodies. They didn't learn this art form to go out and fight people but to help them to meditate, because they were often falling asleep. Not all Buddhist monks practice Kung Fu and I am not sure if Buddhist monks in China do it today or not. It mainly developed to add discipline and concentration to monks who were quite lazy and confused about the Buddha's teaching. It isn't necessary. The Buddha didn't practice Kung Fu. I have learned and sometimes practice a more gentle form of Kung Fu called Tai Chi. It is nice to do right before meditation if the mind is especially scattered and uncooperative. Hope this answers your questions. Metta, James 28212 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:36am Subject: Re: "Doing" Abhidhamma: To Howard Dear Howard, Nina, Robert K, Mike Niece and all How are you? Howard, I agree with your approach to abhidhamma. As one who regards abhidhamma as the most important teachings of the Buddha, and as one who understand abhidhamma to be realities for observation, eradication, development and realization, let me tell you that there are discoveries to be made through on-going participation in applying those teachings to any situation in real life. I find it very beneficial to ponder on any interesting or challenging topic or topics of abhidhamma, be they coming from Sutta, Vinaya or Abhidhamma, every day as a long-term project. Again through trying to apply it to any real life situation. One thing is for sure bound to happen. New insights into the matter under consideration will keep coming along the way. May more and more scientists discover abhidhamma and take over the field of Buddhist Studies, which is currently in the wrong hands of speculative academics such as the likes of Professor David Kalupahana and other neo-Ryhs-Davidsites! With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, all - I think there is a sense in which abhidhamma can be thought of as an ongoing investigative, intellectual analysis operating symbiotically with an ongoing process of direct, mindful, observational analysis of what arises in the namarupic stream. Of course, when we worldlings engage in such a process, we have to take our "discoveries" and our theories with a grain of salt, holding our "conclusions" as quite provisional. The main thing, as I see it, though, is that abhidhammic development, when done properly, even by such as us, as a review and analysis of what is actually observed, and with great care taken in avoiding atta-centric approaches, can be a real help in enabling us to see the impersonal, insubstantial, conditioned and objective nature of reality. To study the analyses already made by those further along than we, subjecting their findings to our own careful perusal and evaluation, and to then further apply the same approach ourselves to direct experince can serve as genuine intellectual support for seeing things as they really are. This is a kind of "gnani yoga" view of the role of abhidhamma and abidhammic development. Thoughts, anyone? With metta, Howard 28213 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/23/03 4:29:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >HOWEVER, it is > >focussed > >meditation, formal samatha bhavana, that is the primary cultivational > >tool, on a > >base of calming sila, making the mind a fit, malleable instrument for > >the > >investigation of dhammas and the cultivation of insight. The Buddha put > >enormous > >emphasis on this. > ..... > I was hesitant to respond as I’m not sure I can add anything new on this > line, but nonetheless....conditions rule;-) > > With all due respect (and I do respect all your comments as being very > well-considered), I think the Buddha put ‘enormous emphasis’ on > understanding the value of all kinds of wholesome states and in showing > that only the ‘cultivation of insight’ leads to the final goal. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly don't debate that. That is not the issue. The issue is the importance of cultivating calm and concentration especially to the jhanic level as a way of making the mind a fit, malleable tool for investigation of dhammas. The Buddha placed great emphasis on this. I maintained that, and I still do. In particular, a study of the M. Nikaya makes this very clear. If you deny that this was emphasized by the Buddha, then we are at odds on this issue, but the matter is easily settled by looking at the teachings. If you do not deny it, then we seem to have no differences when it comes to "cultivation," because there is no question in my mind that the distinctively Buddhist cultivational approach is that of mindful awareness and investigation of dhammas, based on understanding the Buddha's teachings and leading to liberative wisdom. ---------------------------------------------- Any> > wholesome states can be an aid or conditioning factor for insight to > arise, but they can also be a conditioning factor for wrong view of self > and attachment too, as in ‘MY great generosity’ and so on if there isn't > any clear knowledge of the various states, more and more precisely. > > So the understanding and detachment has to begin at this moment which sees > more and more clearly the value of wholesome states including samatha and > recognising the attachment, wrong views of self being calm, pleasant > feeling, concentration and so on which are so often mistakenly seen as > being samatha or bhavana. > > You were having a useful discussion with Christine on impermanence. As I > understand it, it is only by the development of detachment to conditioned > realities and the understanding of them as anatta that sati can arise with > sufficient precision and frequency for panna to know the impermanent > nature of these same namas and rupas. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that one has to "know" at least enough about the tilakkhana to look with the intention of seeing these characteristics. Because of how thorougly our minds have been warped by ignorance, we tend to miss what is right in front of our face! ---------------------------------------------------- > > Otherwise, like now, there may be a moment of awareness of a reality or > characteristic, but this is bound to be followed by ideas of ‘things’ and > ‘people’ again. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! --------------------------------------------------- As you said, ‘No conditioned state remains, and, hence,> > there is nothing to cling to.’ We can just have a theoretical idea now of > the sense of this, but as panna develops it can directly understand the > conditioned and impermanent nature of these realities, including the very > 'pure' ones. But this can only be by the path of detachment from whatever > is conditioned at this moment, not by focussing or concentrating on > specific objects as I see it. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The concentrating is just a conditioner, Sarah. Like cutting down on the noise in a concert hall, it helps one appreciate the concert, but unless the orchestra is present and plays, all the silence in the hall will be to no avail. ------------------------------------------------- > > Any bhavana, whether samatha or vipassana, has to begin with > understanding. With understanding, the bhavana takes care of itself, > whether sitting ‘formally’ or not. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, but most especially so with regard to vipassana bhavana. ----------------------------------------------- > > Do you have a copy of SN, Howard? I’d be delighted (and I know James would > too) if you could continue to chip in anytime. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: SN = Samyutta Nikaya? Or SN = Sutta Nipata? (I own each, in any case.) ---------------------------------------------- > > Here's one you'll like under Devatasamyutta, Old Age, 51(1): > > [A devata:] > "What is good until old age? > What is good when established? > What is the precious gem of humans? > What is hard for thieves to steal?" > > [The Blessed One;] > "Virtue is good until old age; > Faith is good when established; > Wisdom is the precious gem of humans; > Merit is hard for thieves to steal." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28214 From: hsing hsieh Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Thank you for sending this long e-mail. Do you know my question? 28215 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: anapanasati 8 b anapanasati 8 b We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance² designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> Final conclusion: I feel as if I have come to the end of a long journey through this study of anapana sati. I am very impressed by the Intro to the Sutta: the foremost disciples of the Buddha, arahats, instructed the new bhikkhus. The Buddha waited with the invitation ceremony until the Komudian festival, so that the bhikkhus could attain the unattained, realize the unrealized. The Buddha explained to them anapana sati because they were very interested in this subject. He explained mindfulness of breathing in four tetrads, groups of four, each of them combined subsequently with the four foundations of mindfulness. The Visuddhimagga gives a detailed explanation of the way to be mindful of breath, to develop it so that jhana is reached. Buddhaghosa did not create this way of development himself, he was most faithful to the old traditions he found, to the teachers of old. He very seldom added a thought of his own. I do not think, if this way of development is simplified, such as following the movement of the abdomen, that there will be jhana as result. If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana. ***** Nina 28216 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Vis.Tiika58 Vis. : 58. 10. The feminity faculty has the female sex as its characteristic. Its function is to show that 'this is a female'. It is manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the female (cf. Dhs. 633). 11. The masculinity faculty has the male sex as its characteristic. Its function is to show that 'this is a male'. It is manifested as the reason for the mark, sign, work, and ways of the male (cf. Dhs. 634). Both these last are coexstensive with the whole body, as body sensitivity is. But it does not follow that they have to be called either 'located in the space where body-sensitivity is located' or 'located in the space where that is not located'. Like the natures of visible data, etc., these are not confoundable one with the other. Pali: 58. itthibhaavalakkha.na.m itthindriya.m, itthiiti pakaasanarasa.m, itthili"nganimittakuttaakappaana.m kaara.nabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m. purisabhaavalakkha.na.m purisindriya.m, purisoti pakaasanarasa.m, purisali"nganimittakuttaakappaana.m kaara.nabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m. tadubhayampi kaayappasaado viya sakalasariira.m byaapakameva, na ca kaayapasaadena .thitokaase .thitanti vaa a.t.thitokaase .thitanti vaati vattabbata.m aapajjati, ruuparasaadayo viya a~n~nama~n~na.m sa"nkaro natthi. Tiika 58 Words: abhidhaana (n): appellation, name itthi: woman. nara: man pakaaseti: to make known sahita: accompanied by santaana (n): continuum Va.t.ta (n): circle, cycle. va.t.ta.msataa: rounded shape. avisada: is: visada: pure, clean, manifest. hattha (m): hand paada (n): foot Thana (n): breast ma.msa (n): flesh massu (n): beard kesa (m): hair bandhana: dressing vattha (n) : cloth. dahara: child li²nga: feature, attribute nimitta: characteristic sign kutta: work, occupation kappa: ways, behaviour, deportment kii.la: play yathaasaka: each its own, respectively yebhuyya: numerous yebhuyyena: mostly ***** Itthiyaa bhaavo, ³itthii²ti vaa bhavati etena citta.m, abhidhaana~ncaati itthibhaavo, The sex of a woman, or because of this her disposition is ³woman², and it is therefore named femininity, ta.m lakkha.na.m etassaati itthibhaavalakkha.na.m. this characteristic of her is thus the female sex. Tato eva ³itthii²ti ta.msahita.m santaana.m pakaasenta.m viya hotiiti vutta.m ³itthiiti pakaasanarasan²ti. Therefore, the continuum that is accompanied by this makes as it were known, ³this is a female², and thus, it was said that it has the function to show, ³this is a female, not a male². Va.t.ta.msataa avisadahatthapaadaaditaa ca itthili"nga.m. The rounded shape and the frailty of hands, feets, and so on are the features of a woman. Thanama.msaavisadataa, nimmassudaa.thitaa, kesabandhana.m, The pronounced form and delicacy of the breast, being without a beard and so on, the dressing of the hairs, vatthaggaha.na~nca ³itthii²ti sa~njaananassa paccayabhaavato itthinimitta.m. and the way of wearing cloths, all these things are the characteristic mark of a female by being a condition of making known that this is a woman. Daharakaalepi suppakamusalakaadiihi kii.laa, mattikatakkena suttakantanaadi ca itthikutta.m, itthikiriyaati attho. Also in youth girls play by winnowing, with pestles and so on, with clay and by spinning and so on, and this is a feminine occupation, meaning, feminine behaviour. Avisada.t.thaanagamanaadiko aakaaro itthaakappo. A woman¹s deportment is her refined way of standing and going, and so on. Aparo nayo itthiina.m muttakara.na.m itthili"nga.m. Saraadhippaayaa itthinimitta.m. The feminine attribute as being the feminine parts is another method of explanation. This has the meaning of the feminine characteristic mark. Avisada.t.thaanagamananisajjaakhaadanabhojanaadikaa itthikutta.m. A woman¹s behaviour is her more refined way of standing, going, sitting, swallowing, eating, and so on. Itthisa.n.thaana.m itthaakappo. Feminine deportment is the continuum of a woman. Imaani ca itthili"ngaadiini yathaasaka.m kammaadinaa paccayena uppajjamaanaanipi And now, since a woman¹s feature and so on also arise each due to its own condition consisting in kamma and so on, yebhuyyena itthindriyasahite eva santaane ta.mtadaakaaraani hutvaa uppajjantiiti they mostly do so as modes in a continuum accompanied by the feminine faculty, itthindriya.m tesa.m kaara.nanti katvaa vutta.m and thus, having made the feminine faculty the reason for these, he said, ³itthili"nganimittakuttaakappaana.m kaara.nabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanan²ti. ³The manifestation is the reason for the mark, sign, occupation and ways of the female.² English: The sex of a woman, or because of this her disposition is ³woman², and it is therefore named femininity, this characteristic of her is thus the female sex. Therefore, the continuum that is accompanied by this makes as it were known, ³this is a female², and thus, it was said that it has the function to show, ³this is a female, not a male². The rounded shape and the frailty of hands, feets, and so on are the features of a woman. The pronounced form and delicacy of the breast, being without a beard and so on, the dressing of the hairs, and the way of wearing cloths, all these things are the characteristic mark of a female by being a condition of making known that this is a woman. Also in youth girls play by winnowing, with pestles and so on, with clay and by spinning and so on, and this is a feminine occupation, meaning, feminine behaviour. A woman¹s deportment is her refined way of standing and going, and so on. The feminine attribute as being the feminine parts is another method of explanation. This has the meaning of the feminine characteristic mark. A woman¹s behaviour is her more refined way of standing, going, sitting, swallowing, eating, and so on. Feminine deportment is the continuum of a woman. And now, since a woman¹s feature and so on also arise each due to its own condition consisting in kamma and so on, they mostly do so as modes in a continuum accompanied by the feminine faculty, and thus, having made the feminine faculty the reason for these, he said, ³The manifestation is the reason for the mark, sign, occupation and ways of the female.² ***** Nina. 28217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi Howard, Howard: "This business, like jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma." Howard about rupas: Certainly, it is not easy to understand the way of explanation of the ancient teachers, a world of thinking quite different from yours. Just as Larry, I am not surprised that you do not buy this. But it is good you cry out, otherwise I do not know where it hurts. Let me see what I can do to make it more digestible and acceptable for you. But in a following mail you write at least some positive points about Abhidhamma study. op 23-12-2003 02:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and masculine > faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of what we > conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? Will someone > say > they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like > jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in > Abhidhamma. N: I would like to stress to all: this is *not* a treatise on sexuology. Of course girls also like to play with little cars, nowadays the dressing of hair, wearing cloths may be the same for boys and girls, etc. Think of emancipation, the equality of sexes, not to be denied. But, let us see what the intention of the commentators is. This is one way of breaking down the idea of "My important personality." I try to learn from this whole passage, even if the examples may seem too simplified or too general. Remember these are only illustrations, and the commentator speaks in a general sense. Of course there are exceptions. The Expositor also says, Thus, he knows he is speaking in a general way. What can I learn? There are many different types of conditions for the way I behave, walk, stand, move about in daily life, my voice, speech, etc. One of these conditions is the sex faculty. To me this is a very good reminder not to take my way of behaviour for self. It is beneficial to know how much sex influences our daily life. These are not mystical, magical unseen hidden causes. The Abhidhamma helps us to analyse these conditions. It supports and refers to satipatthana all the time: seeing the body in the body, not the self in the body. Lodewijk also said how much it is beyond control to be born male or female, and how much this influences our whole life. The Expositor also says that born a woman is a weaker vipaka. True, we are weaker, and for those who have a profession there is discrimination agains women. We also find this in the suttanta, but, the Buddha said, both men and women can become arahats if wisdom is developed. No difference in respect to this. So, I know what I have to do! Nina. 28218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi Larry, Howard and all: First some explanations: End of Vis Text: N: Sex-faculty conditions rupas all over the body, and it is compared to bodysense which is also all over the body except in some parts as hairs or nails. But: it is not exactly in the same way as bodysense, it is only a comparison. Vis. Text: N: Visible object is distinct from sound, etc. Thus, femininity is distinct from masculinity. The reference to Yamaka in the foonote should be: 10, Indriya Yamaka, where it is explained that these two faculties are distinct. Explanations to Footnote: 'As regards the "mark of the female", etc., too, its "facultiness" is stated as predominance, in other words, as a state of cause, because the conditions for the modal matter (aakaara-ruupa) consisting of the mark of the female, etc., in a continuity accompanied by faculties do not arise otherwise, and because these kinds of materiality are a condition for apprehending the female. N: Explanation: conditions for the modal matter: namely the different modes of feminine features, signs, occupation and deportment, as explained in the Tiika. Footnote text: But because the feminity faculty does not generate even the material instances in its own group or maintain or consolidate them, and because it does not so act for the material instances of other groups, it is therefore not called in the text faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, as the life faculty is for the material instances of its group, and as nutriment is for the material instances in succeeding groups. N: We have to remember that faculty, indriya, is a leader, but in its own field. Eyesense is a faculty, a leader, an important condiiton for seeing. I quote U.Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations, who explains that sex is a faculty, but not faculty-condition as classified in the Patthana: end quote. The Expositor (II, 321) uses a simile: Nina. op 23-12-2003 05:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Howard: "This business, like jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how > weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma." > > Hi Howard, > > What a surprise! I thought you would like this:>)) > > Actually,I haven't figured out what this is saying yet. Hopefully Nina > will have some clarifying remarks. However, I can't imagine what > abhidhamma, or anything else, would be without concepts. What could you > say? > > Larry 28219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis 54, body consciousness Hi Larry, op 22-12-2003 23:06 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: >>> When I asked if tangible data accompanies every consciousness I > meant >>> does it accompany consciousness in the company of vedana. Does > vedana >>> accompany every consciousness? >> N: Yes, vedanaa is one of the seven universals. We cannot say > tangible >> object accompanies citta, because it is rupa, not nama. It can be > object of >> citta, but not all the time. >> L:Is that vedana always bodily feeling? >> N: No, it is bodily feeling only when it is accompanying the > vipakacitta >> that is body-consciousness. > > ------------- > Larry: What about anxiety? I think in the Vedana Samyutta there are > indications that feeling is always bodily feeling and sometimes > _also_ mental feeling. N: This is not so, it depends on the citta feeling accompanies. The translation may be misleading, when it is said, painful feeling (dukkha vedana) it may mean: mental unhappy feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling. We have to look at the context. Sometimes feelings are classified as three: pleasant, painful and indifferent, and then bodily and mental feelings are taken together. Painful feeling can mean: painful bodily feeling or mental unhappy feeling. But they are not the same, arising with different types of citta. Sometimes feelings are classified as five, and then the two bodily feelings are classified separately from mental feelings. Many ways of classifying feelings (up to 108). Anxiety is a form of dosa, thus, a cetasika. L: If there is no mental feeling with insight > then insight must arise with bodily feeling. Correct? N: No. Insight arises with javanacitta, not with body-consciousness that can only experience tangible object. But as soon as body-consciousness has fallen away, body-consciousness or tangible object can be the object of insight. Insight can arise with pleasant (mental) feeling or with indifferent feeling. L quotes>> N: Yes, I also find it very difficult. Let us not try to find the > mental >> formation, we won't be able to. It cannot be realized by thinking, > but it >> helps to have a clear understanding what different dhammas are on > the level >> of pariyatti. > -------------------- > Larry: I disagree. Let's try to find mental formations. If there is > something there, we can find it by looking. I think the whole nama > category is very subtle. The more clearly we can see how subtle and > ungraspable nama is, the less of a "problem" it is. N: We can study the cetasikas which are comprised in mental formations, but this is for the time being only study. The level of pariyatti. Nama is subtle. Some rupas are directly experienced such as hardness or heat, but nama is more like a hidden reality. L quotes: >> L: Are they like a carriage in which there is >>> no actual carriage itself? I am pretty sure I am bewildered but I > can't >>> actually say, "aHA! there is bewilderment." >> N: You probably mean: they are devoid of self? They are only > cetasikas >> arising because of many different conditions. > > -------------------------- > Larry: No, I mean I can't find the cetasika at all. Just tangible > data and some words. I'm not even real sure about feeling. On the > other hand, I am obviously feeling and reacting like crazy. N: You cannot find the cetasika; no, so long as we confuse nama and rupa, and we do not clearly distinguish between them how could we know clearly cetasika, as different from citta for example. Even that is difficult. Even tangible data: are we sure when there is pure rupa and when nama, not mixed in with other dhammas or with concepts? It is best to begin with the level of pariyatti. It helps to clearly know what is what, and therefore discussions can clear up some misunderstandings. Nina. 28220 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Doing" Abhidhamma: To Howard Dear Suan and Howard, yes, that is the essence. anumodana to both of you, May we all make new discoveries every day and become more and more convinced that the Abhidhamma is for application to any situation, Nina. op 23-12-2003 15:36 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > As one who regards abhidhamma as the most important teachings of the > Buddha, and as one who understand abhidhamma to be realities for > observation, eradication, development and realization, let me tell > you that there are discoveries to be made through on-going > participation in applying those teachings to any situation in real > life. > > I find it very beneficial to ponder on any interesting or challenging > topic or topics of abhidhamma, be they coming from Sutta, Vinaya or > Abhidhamma, every day as a long-term project. Again through trying to > apply it to any real life situation. > > One thing is for sure bound to happen. New insights into the matter > under consideration will keep coming along the way. 28221 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye Door, Ear Door, and Rupas Galore Hi Howard, do you refer to the text of the Dhammasangani, and this in English? The transl has very, very unclear words at times. We would have to go over it again and put it straight. Like representative intellection, ideation, etc. When I know the Pali I do not mind what words are used. I guess I have to order the Pali. Icaro only likes the Pali and Sarah and I may discuss it with him in Febr. when he is back here. Anyway, it is all about realities to be verified at this moment, no matter what words are used. If we keep this constantly in mind, we won't get lost, I assure you. A lot more to discover! Meanwhile I collected a great many topics from your posts, but I have to come back later, one at a time. Some work waiting for me! Nina. op 23-12-2003 00:34 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The sense door descriptions given in the Dhammasangani sound to me > like the descriptions of pa~n~natti, and not paramattha dhammas. There is talk > of > the sensitive material or sensitive substance of the eye organ and of the ear > organ. 28222 From: nordwest Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] hshsing / Buddists' belief Dear Hshing, if you mean prayers where one asks for example "Please Buddha, help me with my sickness." then such a thing is sometimes common, but is understood by ven. masters as nonsense practice. Noone will answer such a prayer. Buddhists believe not in an all-powerful God. The gods and heavely beings dwell in the respective heaven and god realms, but they are not there to help us with wonderus deeds. However, there are plenty bodhisattva beings in this world who help beings on the right path with a sincere heart and good motivation. We don't have to pray to them for help, they know what is going on. Buddhist prayers are mot often wish prayers for the good of OTHERS, not for oneself. Like the common prayer "May beings be happy, be healthy, live in peace and become enlightened sooner." Such prayers have great powers, and they are often used in combination with individual vows. You can make your own prayer, and your own vows, noone urges you to repeat anything. You have your own qualities and know best, how to help other beings. Gassho, Thomas hshsing wrote:I read a message, a question "Does a buddist pray?". But I can not find any reply. Perhaps I am wrong. I think a buddist believe what Buddha said. Did Buddha say anything about gods or God? Maybe no. Therefore, some buddist believe in gods or God, and some do not believe in gods or God. Am I correct? hshsing@y... 28223 From: Larry Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi Nina, Very good explanation. I don't have anything to add except possibly about the hermaphrodite. The commentary says there is only masculinity or only femininity at any given moment. Does this mean masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of predominance condition? Larry ps: I think what Howard was objecting to is all the concepts involved in "mark, sign, work, and ways" and similarly the concepts involved in describing the sense organs. It appears that all these concepts are being classified as paramattha dhammas. What about that? L. 28224 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah, Sarah: I quoted a passage from the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta to Htoo which indicated that `necessary in all circumstances' referred to every and any state or time, including `sluggish and unbalanced' states of mind. Sukin mentioned that he's often unfocussed on the task at hand (or sth like that). This may be a problem for certain kinds of concentration as we think of it, but not for the development of satipatthana which can have any reality as object, accompanied by rt concentration at any moments of understanding and awareness. This is the meaning of `sati sampajanna', so often translated as contemplation or focussing. James: Well, either this commentary is wrong or you have misinterpreted it. Right concentration cannot be practiced at just any time and especially not during `sluggish and unbalanced' times. I could quote suttas galore about this but let me just quote from an expert on the suttas, Bhikkhu Bodhi, who translated the SN of which we are both so enamored with at the moment: "However, samadhi is only a particular kind of one-pointedness; it is not equivalent to one-pointedness in its entirety. A gourmet sitting down to a meal, an assassin about to slay his victim, a soldier on the battlefield -- these all act with a concentrated mind, but their concentration cannot be characterized as samadhi. Samadhi is exclusively wholesome one-pointedness, the concentration in a wholesome state of mind. Even then its range is still narrower: it does not signify every form of wholesome concentration, but only the intensified concentration that results from a deliberate attempt to raise the mind to a higher, more purified level of awareness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch7 Right concentration only occurs during a wholesome state of mind, equanimity like I stated previously, and when there is a deliberate attempt to raise the mind to a higher and more purified level of awareness. This cannot be done while grocery shopping, brushing your teeth, or any other mundane activity, it must be done during formal sitting meditation. Really, this is just so basic to Buddhism I don't know why we keep going over it. Sarah: I think the teachings are really, really specific, but what we can understand is limited by our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. Any comment or statement of the Buddha's can and is mis- interpreted accordingly. James: Maybe, like you keep doing over this issue of meditation. Sarah: It's true as you say that rt concentration (and all good cittas) are accompanied by equanimity. However, these will also be accompanied by either neutral or pleasant feeling. There are lots of textual references to rt concentration with pleasant feeling and joy (as I was discussing with Michael). James: You are contradicting yourself, equanimity and pleasant feeling cannot arise together. When there is any pleasant feeling, then there is no more equanimity. True, the first two jhanas contain pleasant feeling but that must be overcome, abandoned, to move to the higher, last two jhanas. If one doesn't want to practice jhana meditation, then there won't ever be any pleasant feeling, only equanimity. Again I will quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The kinds of concentration discussed so far arise by fixing the mind upon a single object to the exclusion of other objects. But apart from these there is another kind of concentration which does not depend upon restricting the range of awareness. This is called "momentary concentration" (khanika-samadhi). To develop momentary concentration the meditator does not deliberately attempt to exclude the multiplicity of phenomena from his field of attention. Instead, he simply directs mindfulness to the changing states of mind and body, noting any phenomenon that presents itself; the task is to maintain a continuous awareness of whatever enters the range of perception, clinging to nothing. As he goes on with his noting, concentration becomes stronger moment after moment until it becomes established one-pointedly on the constantly changing stream of events. Despite the change in the object, the mental unification remains steady, and in time acquires a force capable of suppressing the hindrances to a degree equal to that of access concentration. This fluid, mobile concentration is developed by the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness, taken up along the path of insight; when sufficiently strong it issues in the breakthrough to the last stage of the path, the arising of wisdom." This is the type of meditation (vipassana) I practice because it is what my meditation teacher taught me and it is a less `dangerous' type. Jhana meditation can have some odd side effects and clinging to blissful states if practiced without the constant supervision of an experienced teacher (Gosh, I hope Jeff isn't reading this! ;-) Regardless, Sarah, as I am understanding you, you believe that one can practice right concentration during everyday life as long as it is accompanied by pleasant feeling and joy. How is that supposed to happen? Win the lottery everyday? LOL! (just kidding). The type of pleasant feeling and joy that you are describing from the texts is a very specialized type and isn't the same as the pleasure of eating your favorite ice cream or something. Sarah: Exactly and well put! In other words, it is not the degree of concentration or the pleasant feeling which determines the good or bad states as these can accompany kusala and akusala cittas. (Hope there's a little metta for your landlady these days - it will automatically be accompanied by rt concent without any focussing or concentrating as you mena it;-)) James: You misunderstood what I wrote. What I wrote had nothing to do with the degree of concentration during pleasant feeling or otherwise, it was just an illustration to show that right concentration cannot arise during unwholesome mind states and that such unwholesome mind states are the standard of everyday life. (Sarah, the thing about my landlady was a joke! My landlady never stopped receiving metta from me. An argument doesn't mean I give less metta. I argue with you all the time and I still have metta for you! ;-))…and, BTW, it isn't automatically right concentration). Sarah: It seems this way for us all. I mean, it seems there really is a `ME' that can and must strive. But when we think like this, it is another conceptual framework or a view that this is so rather than any direct awareness as we think and speak. James: The Buddha spoke often of working diligently. Getting to Nibbana isn't a tea party! ;-) Again, you have an odd idea of non- self that arises from the fact that you don't truly know non-self. Did the Buddha realize anatta before he was enlightened? To my understanding he did not. He thought he had a self and he strived diligently all the way up to the end. It isn't wisdom to pretend to be like a Buddha or to know what a Buddha knows. It is wisdom to know what you don't know and work to know more. Sarah: It's OK, and as you've said before, there may be many different benefits for you in sitting quietly. However, when there is the trying to focus or trying to be mindful or working so hard, who is focussing and working at these times? James: I am, James Mitchell. Now you think I don't exist? I have some student loan companies I wish I could convince of that!! ;-) Sarah: That's OK.....plenty of rupas will creep up on us as we progress through SN and look at the sections on the khandhas, the elements, the sense bases and so on. I'm happy to stick to quotations from the section we're studying for these discussions;-) James: You'll stick just to the suttas, no commentaries? I'll believe it when I see it! ;-)) Sarah: I was very glad to read that you are following the Vism extracts and Qus. I think we can just leave the pace to Larry and Nina as they are the main contributors and understand each other. James: I was not suggesting that they pick up the pace! LOL! I was just expressing some concern. Yes, I read everything, but I don't agree with everything. What is the saying? "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer." Hehehe… Sarah: We can set our own pace on the SN thread and add as many or few quotes as we like. James: I wasn't aware that there was an SN thread. Please contact me off-list about what you have in mind concerning this. Metta, James 28225 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:14pm Subject: tangible data and mental formations Hi Nina, I looked through all my stuff on bodily feeling and couldn't find anything to definitively support my position. Nevertheless, I have to say, in my experience, desire, aversion, and bewilderment ALWAYS arise with tangible data in the form of internal bodily sensations (with bodily feeling) and NEVER arise with only mental feeling (without tangible data). In fact, tangible data is often the most distinctive aspect of the experience. If I conceptually formulate an aversion, it doesn't seem "real" until tangible data arise. Larry 28226 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: moha Dear Robert, It's great to hear from you too. I just noticed that new member Philip is a Canadian living in Japan and is having some trouoble finding Theravada connections there ... > Is there any moha now? # "Now" slips by so quickly that it is difficult to discuss... Which "now" are you talking about? My day is a long sequence of akusala cittas, punctuated by an occasional arising of kusala. The Sangaha tells me that moha is a part of all these akusalas, and panya is only occasionally present in the kusala. > Are the characteristics of seeing and visble object discerned clearly, one is rupa the other nama. If not then is moha present? # I'm not sure what "discerned clearly" means. Vipassana? Not all kusala is vipassana, and not all vipassana is namarupapariccheda. I don't see how failure to see clearly a particular kind of distinction at a particular moment can be reliably taken as a manifestation of moha. So, to answer your question whether moha is present at moments when the attention is directed to something other than distinction between nama and rupa, I'd say "Sometimes yes, and sometimes no." A related question: How is moha discerned except by inference? It arises in all akusala cetasikas; but when the citta is rooted in lobha or dosa, other cetasikas (such as lobha, dosa, conceit, worry, doubt, thina-middha) are usually more visible than moha. The cittas rooted solely in moha are known via restlessness or boredom. But also, at times, restlessness may be quite clear in even lobha- and dosa-mula cittas. Isn't restlessness really just a sense of dissatisfaction with the present? Arising from (or, at times, with) that sense of dissatisfaction are the more intense cetasikas such as lobha, dosa, conceit, etc. A clear view of the cetasika restlessness, then, is a clear view of dissatisfaction, which is dukkha. > Without first discerning the nature of the realities of the present moment how can we really see ariya sacca (noble truth) such as dukkha. # Dukkha is the nature of the reality of the present moment. Certainly, if there is no understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa there can be no "discerning the nature of the realities", including the reality of "dukkha". Just imagine someone who sees dukkha in the present moment but does not discern clearly nama from rupa: "Oh, this car is just not the right color! I need a darker shade of green. ... What do you mean you can't get it for me? Get #$%@ the manager. I want to give him a piece of my mind!!" He sees the akusala citta and the suffering as a rupa. Change the visual object to green, and, Voila!, no more suffering. Ho, ho, ho! --> A simple example of an error that stems from the confusing of nama and rupa. The dukkha of the ariya sacca is not material suffering and the solution to suffering is not attaining more pleasant physical conditions: Namarupapariccheda in daily life. > So moha and lobha are so common and obscure reality. There is almost always running among concepts and moha is one of the prime causes of this. I would agree that there is almost always running among concepts. This is characteristic of what we call "human life," and someone who does not run among concepts would have to be called "non-functional" and certainly NOT "Arahant." Robert, I'm not convinced that moha is a cause of running among concepts at all. It is unavoidable that there is almost always running among concepts. The questions is whether the attention paid to them is yoniso or ayoniso. Dan 28227 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] moha Dear Eddie Lou, I think you are right about our limited abilities to see things as they really are and that this weakness has a heavy impact. It is not clear from what you say, though, how this limited ability drives the cycle of rebirths. Could you say more about what you see as the connection between moha and the cycle of rebirth? And in what way moha could possibly drive this cycle? It makes sense to me that if moha drives the rebirth cycle and dukkha as you say and that if wisdom dispells moha (as you imply), then development of wisdom would lead to reduction of dukkha. I still have some questions, though, is it solely moha that drives the cycle? If not, then how does wisdom work on these other drivers? Dan 28228 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: "Doing" Abhidhamma Dear Howard, I think your comments are right on target. Abhidhamma studies is a form of meditation. It can be done with right effort or wrong effort, right concentration or wrong concentration, right understanding or wrong understanding -- much like a "formal meditation", sitting quietly, eyes closed, legs crossed, following instructions given by a Goenka or Mahasi. Abhidhamma studies, like any meditation practice, has many potential benefits (as you describe), but also bears a number of dangers, such as craving for knowledge, attachment to intellectual constructs, conceit about knowing a lot of Pali and intricate details about texts. One advantage of Abhidhamma studies as a practice is that the voice of the master is never far away -- so much constant guidance. When sitting quietly in a corner, eyes closed, legs crossed, the voice of lobha is never far away; and lobha is a very accomplished and convincing teacher, alluring and relentless. Dan 28229 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye Door, Ear Door, and Rupas Galore Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/23/03 3:28:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > do you refer to the text of the Dhammasangani, and this in English? The > transl has very, very unclear words at times. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, it's terrible. I've already thought more than once how unfair it actually is to the Abhidhamma for there not to be a first-class translation of all 7 books into English, French etc. I'm surprised that there have been no attempts at collecting dana for the purpose of supporting such an endeavor. ------------------------------------------------ We would have to go over it> > again and put it straight. Like representative intellection, ideation, etc. > When I know the Pali I do not mind what words are used. I guess I have to > order the Pali. Icaro only likes the Pali and Sarah and I may discuss it > with him in Febr. when he is back here. Anyway, it is all about realities to > be verified at this moment, no matter what words are used. If we keep this > constantly in mind, we won't get lost, I assure you. A lot more to discover! > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I constantly keep myself open to the possibility of seeing that it is all completely fine. I don't expect to be persuaded of this, but I don't forclose the possibility. ------------------------------------------------ > Meanwhile I collected a great many topics from your posts, but I have to > come back later, one at a time. Some work waiting for me! > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sorry! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28230 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/23/03 2:01:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > N: I would like to stress to all: this is *not* a treatise on sexuology. Of > course girls also like to play with little cars, nowadays the dressing of > hair, wearing cloths may be the same for boys and girls, etc. Think of > emancipation, the equality of sexes, not to be denied. But, let us see what > the intention of the commentators is. This is one way of breaking down the > idea of "My important personality." I try to learn from this whole passage, > even if the examples may seem too simplified or too general. Remember these > are only illustrations, and the commentator speaks in a general sense. Of > course there are exceptions. The Expositor also says, taking long strides, etc., folk say 'she walks like a man'. >Thus, he knows > he is speaking in a general way. > What can I learn? There are many different types of conditions for the way I > behave, walk, stand, move about in daily life, my voice, speech, etc. One of > these conditions is the sex faculty. To me this is a very good reminder not > to take my way of behaviour for self. It is beneficial to know how much sex > influences our daily life. These are not mystical, magical unseen hidden > causes. The Abhidhamma helps us to analyse these conditions. It supports and > refers to satipatthana all the time: seeing the body in the body, not the > self in the body. > Lodewijk also said how much it is beyond control to be born male or female, > and how much this influences our whole life. The Expositor also says that > born a woman is a weaker vipaka. True, we are weaker, and for those who have > a profession there is discrimination agains women. We also find this in the > suttanta, but, the Buddha said, both men and women can become arahats if > wisdom is developed. No difference in respect to this. So, I know what I > have to do! > Nina. > > ============================ The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a problem with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) that is responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no sense to me. Sexual characteristics are determined by genes and other biological structures, pa~n~natti all. That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be born female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out by various Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of femininity that arises from time to time, like pleasantness and odors and sounds arise is simply a piece of nonsense to me. The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is NO evidence. Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the same way as all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in this problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions arise, there occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of the ability to see is the "opening (or activation) of the eye door," with the capacity to see being the eye-door rupa. The other four physical sense doors are similar. They are physical capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest elements of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to think that there is any validity to these notions as given there. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28231 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/23/03 7:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > I looked through all my stuff on bodily feeling and couldn't find > anything to definitively support my position. Nevertheless, I have to > say, in my experience, desire, aversion, and bewilderment ALWAYS arise > with tangible data in the form of internal bodily sensations (with > bodily feeling) and NEVER arise with only mental feeling (without > tangible data). In fact, tangible data is often the most distinctive > aspect of the experience. If I conceptually formulate an aversion, it > doesn't seem "real" until tangible data arise. > > Larry > ============================= I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do you mean that pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutral feeling only occur with an object that is a bodily sensation? Are you saying that it is exactly bodily sensations that are the objects felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral? This seems to be Goenka's position,BTW. It is *not* the Abhidhamma position, of course, which is that *every* mindstate has a vedanic taste. However, I could imagine as true that a mindstate with an object that is a so-called "pleasant object" could actually be ve dana-free, but will then lead to a subsequent mindstate in which the object is a physical sensation that is felt as pleasant. In a sense, the prior object was a "pleasant one" because its occurrence inevitably led to a pleasant sensation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28232 From: Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Howard: "I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do you mean that pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutral feeling only occur with an object that is a bodily sensation?" Hi Howard, Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily feeling only occur with rupa. Another interpretation is that pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily feeling only occur with tangible data. Therefore they only arise with vipaka citta as object (according to Nina). Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral mental feeling can arise with either nama or rupa as object. However, it is my experience that tangible data arises with mental formations. When I am angry I "feel" angry. That "feeling" is tangible data, a rupa. Often, I can only define my emotion (mental formation) by deciphering the tangible data. The actual feeling (vedana) is really too elusive to catch or analyze (for me). Larry 28233 From: dhammasaro Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Sentient Being Howdy, Happy holidays to all. Four questions: 1. Is/are there Pali words for "sentient being(s)"; 2. Does the Tipitaka use the words; 3. If yes, where; and 4. If yes, what do the words mean? metta, Chuck 28234 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah, please see my comments below --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Thanks for replying, I never mind how long it takes. I appreciate it. > > I'm glad to hear you're feeling so happy and content. What do you mean by > practicing `moment-to-moment mindfulness'? (pls don't consider any > questioning and clarifying as unfriendly in any way, Jeff.) > .... %%%%%%%% Jeff: moment-to-moment mindfulness, as I use the term is attentive awareness of every activity, no mstter how trivial, as in the Satipatthana Sutta MN 10 3. Awareness with Clear Comprehension And further, monks, an aspirant, in going forward and back, applies clear comprehension; in looking straight on and looking away, one applies clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, one applies clear comprehension; in wearing robes and carrying the bowl, one applies clear comprehension; in eating, drinking, chewing and savoring, one applies clear comprehension; in walking, in standing, in sitting, in falling asleep, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, one applies clear comprehension. Thus one lives contemplating the body in the body... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html %%%%%%%% > .... > OK, thanks. I think there are different kinds of `awareness',as the term > is used, and they are not necessarily all wholesome. Awareness of auras > and chakras can be very, very useful,especially for healing etc, but it > doesn't have anything to do with awareness as in satipatthana as I > understand. It's not necessary to have ever heard the Buddha's teachings > for this, whereas those who have developed satipatthana may have no > awareness of auras. > .... %%%%%%%% Jeff: Moment-to-moment mindfulness to me means everything, even if aurus and chakras enter ones awareness domain. %%%%%%%% > ..... > I'm also doubtful that we use terms like `4th jhana' in the same way at > all. > ..... > > As for the "I" when I refer to myself, this is a language that is > > based on self references I use it in much the same way you use the > > term. I speak of this one, who is typing this message to you, that > > one who will be reading it. But, I know that this is not me, I am not > > this, and this is not mine. > ..... > I'm glad to hear it. As we discuss quite often here, ideas of self can > creep in often whenever there is an idea of doing something in particular > in order to have more awareness with an idea that 'we' can do it, for > example. > > I also read your other post `jhana is ecstasy' with interest, Jeff. I > appreciated your definitions and references. I don't believe I've seen a > single post on DSG in which `jhana' is `regarded as a dirty word', but > perhaps you meant elsewhere. You're welcome to try and find one here;-). > > You mention that ecstasy is used to describe the experience of > enlightenment, but of course as you know, jhana is not any enlightenment. > You refer in your quotes to `pleasure (bliss)'. This would refer to sukha > and piti, I believe, sometimes translated as bliss or pleasant feeling > (sukha) and joy or rapture (piti). The difficulty is, I think, that we > assume these states are wholesome when they arise, but usually they're > unwholesome sukha and piti accompanying attachment. Indeed all kinds of > attachment, accompanied by pleasant feeling are also accompanied by piti > and these are stronger or more intense than other kinds of attachment. > This piti with attachment is also delighted or blissed by the object, such > as music or nature or a special experience. > > So,to get to the point, I don't think you differentiate in your various > definitions between wholesome bliss - sukha and piti and the unwholesome > kinds. How do you know that the bliss you are describing is wholesome? > Similarly with absorption, trance and so on? At this moment is there any > knowledge or awareness of whether the pleasant feeling or joy is wholesome > or unwholesome? > > I'll appreciate any further clarifications. > > With metta, > > Sarah. > ====== Interesting questions Sarah however you assume there is an unwholesome bliss or jhana, or absorption. There isn't one, because otherwise it would not be jhana. If you recall the 4 Noble Truths, suffering (dukkha) caused be grasping and aversion. The pleasant abiding in the here and now the Buddha spoke of was jhana. Therefore one does not get jhana with grasping and aversion. One gets suffering. Best to you, Jeff Brooks 28235 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reminders [ho ho ho] Hi Azita, Nina, Ken H & All, > > The Early Teachers [cited at Vism XI,23] > > > > The pleasant drink, the pleasant food, > > Hard, soft, whatever it may be: > > Through one door it is loaded in, > > Through nine it trickles out again. .... I was considering presenting this on a card to my brother and niece when they arrive in a couple of days with a view to encouragement of simple living while they’re here in Hong Kong, but decided my akusala motives, i.e wishing for a simple life myself, would definitely be predominating;-( Whilst Jon is happy to mainly live on plain congee* with lots of encouragement from Dr Ma, my brother has been hearing various wild reports from his Chinese students in England about the various delicacies and banquets in Hong Kong. Worse still, I had instructed them to just bring hiking and swim gear so we could avoid the crowds and take off to remote beaches (I mean, if 10c minimum is warm enough for us, you’d think it would be the equivalent of a fine summer’s day for those arriving from Manchester via Moscow, wouldn’t you?). Anyway, meanwhile those Manchester students have been spilling the beans about shopping orgies and bargains over the border in Shenzhen, waxing lyrical about the adrenalin rush from feeling like a squashed fly on the trains to get there and so on. Result: they now want to do the lot -- hikes, beaches AND chinese meals,shopping and whatever else they've been told about-- and I’m going to have precious little time on list during these two weeks. Oh well, family;-) So I’m also looking for volunteers to carry my many batons;-) KenH, you could be busy. Mike, hope we can tempt you out of the woodwork. Dan, very good to see you around in your usual great style, (Best wishes to Lisa). Everyone else, pls keep up all the stimulating discussions and apologies to James, Herman, Howard, Jeff and anyone else for even slower turn around times than usual -- your posts always deserve and require more than a quick one-liner. I’ll get back on any threads as and when I can. Metta, Sarah * congee (discussed before), the ‘soft food’, is rice gruel, common in Asia made from cooking plain rice (preferably brown) until it’s very soft and soupy. KenH, we now use a small congee crockpot which can be left on overnight and gets the best consistency. Nina, this morning Dr Ma was commenting on a marked improvement in a particular condition of Jon’s and saying how helpful congee is as a ‘cooler’ for any disorders of the bladder, rectum, prostate etc, neutralizing inflammation. For special celebrations, we use a 5 grains mixture;-) Hmm, I think I’ll take my brother to see Dr Ma, firmly on our visitor hotspots map as Christine and B.Bodhi will recall;-) To remind everyone that we are acting on good authority, let me quote from Jon’s earlier message: ***** “Here is the passage I (and probably you also)had in mind, from the commentary to the Sammannaphala Sutta (D. 2), from Bh. Bodhi's translation 'The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship'(BPS), p. 103: "And such bhikkhus in the Buddha's dispensation who have aroused insight and attained arahatship after drinking congee cannot be counted. In the island of Sri Lanka alone, in the sitting halls of various villages there is not even a single seat where a bhikkhu did not attain arahatship after drinking congee." Just before that, it gives some background to this phenomenon. Apparently among the monks who were in the habit of developing samatha there were some who were overcome by a condition described as 'kamma-born heat element' while doing the early morning domestic chores at the monastery. Drinking a morning cup of congee brought welcome relief from this condition, and was a condition for the furtherance of both samatha and vipassana bhavana. As before, p.102: "Another bhikkhu performs the aforesaid duties early in the morning. While he is doing so, the kamma-born heat element blazes up and burns his stomach. Sweat pours forth from his body and he cannot keep track of his meditation subject [since one whose body is afflicted with hunger cannot concentrate well]. … Receiving some congee, he goes to the sitting hall and drinks it. As soon as he has swallowed two or three mouthfuls, the kamma-born heat element lets go of the stomach and grasps the ingested food. Like a man who has bathed with a hundred buckets of water, the burning of the heat element is extinguished." Jon (Congee for breakfast... Hmm .. I'll try anything!) ***** ..and I know we’d pass the simple living test on this score;-) Metta, Sarah (just back from a turkey & trimmings lunch.....yum.....;-)) ====== 28236 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: Sentient Being Hello Chuck, and all, The Pali Text Society Pali-English dictionary contains the following definition. The places where the Pali term is used in the Tipitika are listed within the entry below. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Satta2 (p. 673) [cp, Vedic sattva living being, satvan "strong man, warrior," fr. sant] 1. (m.) a living being, creature, a sentient & rational being, a person D I.17, 34, 53, 82; II.68; A I.35 sq., 55 sq.; S I.135; V.41; Vin I.5; Miln 273; Vism 310 (defn: "rup'adisu khandhesu chandaragena satta visatta ti satta," thus=satta1); Nett 161; DA I.51, 161; VbhA 144. --naraka° a being in purgatory (cp. niraya°) Vism 500. -- 2. (nt.) soul (=jivita or vinnana) Pv I.81 (gata°=vigata--jivita PvA 40). <-> 3. (nt.) substance Vin I.287. nissatta non--substantial, phenomenal DhsA 38. nn--avasa abode of sentient beings (see nava1 2) D III.263, 268; A V.53; Vism 552; VbhA 168. --ussada (see ussada 4) teeming with life, full of people D I.87, 111, 131. --loka the world of living creatures SnA 263, 442; Vism 205. See also sankhara--loka. --vanijja slave trade DA I.235=A III.208 (C.: manussa--vikkaya). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammasaro" wrote: > Howdy, > > Happy holidays to all. > > Four questions: > > 1. Is/are there Pali words for "sentient being(s)"; > > 2. Does the Tipitaka use the words; > > 3. If yes, where; and > > 4. If yes, what do the words mean? > > metta, > > Chuck 28237 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] hshsing / Buddists' belief Dear Hshsing and Thomas. Hshsing, welcome to DSG*. I hope you’ll tell us a little more about yourself. Thomas, I liked your reply to Hshing’s Qus very much. You wrote: T: >if you mean prayers where one asks for example "Please Buddha, help me with my sickness." then such a thing is sometimes common, but is understood by ven. masters as nonsense practice. Noone will answer such a prayer. Buddhists believe not in an all-powerful God. The gods and heavely beings dwell in the respective heaven and god realms, but they are not there to help us with wonderus deeds.< .... S: ;-) Like you suggest, we need to know our motives and beliefs at these times. .... T: >However, there are plenty bodhisattva beings in this world who help beings on the right path with a sincere heart and good motivation. We don't have to pray to them for help, they know what is going on.< .... S: I understand we use different wording and from a Theravada point of view, we’d just say there are many good friends to help us along. More important, we can learn to be a good friend to help others along when they are in need or request our assistance. .... T: >Buddhist prayers are most often wish prayers for the good of OTHERS, not for oneself. Like the common prayer "May beings be happy, be healthy, live in peace and become enlightened sooner." Such prayers have great powers, and they are often used in combination with individual vows. You can make your own prayer, and your own vows, noone urges you to repeat anything. You have your own qualities and know best, how to help other beings. .... S: This is beautifully put and I fully agree (it does occasionally happen on DSG;-)). Wishing well for OTHERS as you say, making your own prayers and so on without any need to repeat. “You have your own qualities and know best, how to help other beings”. I can’t help repeating it again. Metta and Gassho to you both, Sarah *Hshsing, to aid communication here, we ask everyone on DSG to make it clear whom they are addressing, even if it’s ‘All’ and to sign off each post with a (preferably real) name we can address you by. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/DSG_Guide_Lines ===== 28238 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sounds - heard and unheard Hi Herman, Try as I might, I find nothing to disagree with in what you write here -- though I'd say these are 3 correct statements about rupas rather than differences in definition: --- Egberdina wrote: 1.> Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, but no > sensing apparatus ie consciousness? 2.> Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, and > consciousness? 3.> Is there sensation when the cause for sensation is there, and > consciousness as well as consciousness of consciousness? > > For me it is clear that there is sensation without the awareness of > sensation, giving my reactivity to things flying into my eyes whilst > occupied with refuting a heretic on the Net, or thunderclaps in the > middle of the night. .... Yes! .... > There are no correct definitions, and when everyone agrees to a > common definition there are no discussions. I say Vive la > difference!!! .... Yes again! (it must be Xmas cheer or something like that;-)) Best wishes and Happy Holidays to Vicki and the boys too Metta, Sarah p.s The story you told about the anxiety and panic when Vicki was a couple of hours late, only to be reminded later of what you'd been reminded of earlier, was a very familiar one to me too.....;-) ===================================================== 28239 From: ukvegans Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:32am Subject: Any thoughts ... Hi All, It is said that Hindus believe that Buddha was the 9th re-incarnation of Vishnu, and that buddha reached enlightenment by practising the eight limbs of yoga. Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created. Any comment on these statements ... ? peace & light, Alan 28240 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi Larry (& James), --- Larry wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Excellent sutta reference. Just what I was looking for. What is > equanimity here? The perceiving consciousness itself, i.e. panna? .... Glad it was useful. Equanimity= upekkha* (aka tatramajjhattata cetasika) Equanimity or evenmindedness accompanies all kusala cittas. Nina writes in ‘Cetasikas’: http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas32.html “Equanimity, evenmindedness or balance of mind (in Pali : tatramajjhattata), is one of the nineteen sobhana[beautiful]cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta. It is not easy to know the characteristic of equanimity. We may think that there is equanimity whenever there is neither like nor dislike of what we see, hear or experience through the other senses, but at such moments there may be ignorance instead of equanimity. We may confuse equanimity and indifferent feeling, but these are different cetasikas; equanimity is not feeling, the cetasika which is vedana. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 153) states about equanimity : It has the characteristic of conveying citta and cetasikas evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly.” ..... > As for the disadvantages of blindness and deafness, or other > disabilities, I am sure they are challenging but certainly no reason > to commit suicide or even be down in the dumps all the time. I am > sure there are many reasonably happy and well adjusted disabled > people. .... I agree and I should stress that the old man on the boat and the deaf kids I’ve known have all been very cheery. My point was just that it would be wrong to consider the disability as having any advantage on the path. .... >What I was fishing for is a textual reference to the idea > that a disabled person can't realize nibbana. I have read this > somewhere and I was wondering, why not? .... I know what you are referring to. When we studied ADL, we read about different kinds of patisandhi citta (re-birth consciousness) and about those born with ‘ahetuka patisandhi citta’ who are born ‘handicapped’. This means the patisandhi citta (result of kamma) is not accompanied by the sobhana roots and there are various defects which may include eye-sense and ear-sense. Of course, if someone develops a defect during life, it is different and even if the blindness or deafness were apparent from birth, we could never be sure it was from the first moment of life. One of my deaf students became deaf during birth for example, which is different (and then the deafness was say 90% - seldom 100%). I think common-sense applies in this areas. Some with extreme disabilities would never be able to develop panna to become enlightened in this lifetime. Obviously this wouldn’t apply to most blind, deaf or other disabled people with otherwise just the usual worldling ignorance and wrong view;-) Metta, Sarah * upekkha also used to refer to indifferent feeling. (I think this is where there is some mis-communication with James). Indifferent feeling can arise with kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya cittas. When we don’t notice our feelings, they’re usually indifferent, such as with moments of seeing or hearing or with ignorance or with attachment even. We look up at the screen, touch the keyboard with indifferent feeling. There’s bound to be attachment too, even though there’s no excitement about it. Same with some moments of kusala - they are accompanied by indifferent or pleasant feeling. To confuse further, upekkha also refers to the brahma vihara of equanimity which always has other beings as object. Vism 1X, 96 “Equanimity is characterized as promoting the aspect of neutrality towards beings....” Ignorance is the near enemy. More in the chapter in ‘Cetasikas’. (I realize there's quite a lot of Pali and detail here. James, pls say if you'd like it broken down further and either I'll be glad to later or someone else will help in the meantime.) ************* 28241 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts ... I'm not sure, the Buddha told stories of 500 former life times to his disciples. Would this work, if he would have been Vishnu? -- I have not enough knowledge about Hinduism... just a thought... Thomas ukvegans wrote: Hi All, It is said that Hindus believe that Buddha was the 9th re-incarnation of Vishnu, and that buddha reached enlightenment by practising the eight limbs of yoga. Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created. 28242 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: moha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > It's great to hear from you too. I just noticed that new member > Philip is a Canadian living in Japan and is having some trouoble > finding Theravada connections there ... =========== Hi Dan, Yes, I just saw that post. I met bruce (old member ) 3 years ago in Osaka once so maybe in the future Phillip and I can get together. ========== > > # Dukkha is the nature of the reality of the present moment. > Certainly, if there is no understanding of the distinction between > nama and rupa there can be no "discerning the nature of the > realities", including the reality of "dukkha". Just imagine someone > who sees dukkha in the present moment but does not discern clearly > nama from rupa: "Oh, this car is just not the right color! I need a > darker shade of green. ... What do you mean you can't get it for me? > Get #$%@ the manager. I want to give him a piece of my mind!!" He > sees the akusala citta and the suffering as a rupa. Change the visual > object to green, and, Voila!, no more suffering. Ho, ho, ho! --> A > simple example of an error that stems from the confusing of nama and > rupa. The dukkha of the ariya sacca is not material suffering and the > solution to suffering is not attaining more pleasant physical > conditions: Namarupapariccheda in daily life. ============== Yes, very good. ================= > > > So moha and lobha are so common and obscure reality. There is > almost always running among concepts and moha is one of the prime > causes of this. > > I would agree that there is almost always running among concepts. > This is characteristic of what we call "human life," and someone who > does not run among concepts would have to be called "non- functional" > and certainly NOT "Arahant." > > Robert, I'm not convinced that moha is a cause of running among > concepts at all. It is unavoidable that there is almost always > running among concepts. The questions is whether the attention paid > to them is yoniso or ayoniso. ================ yes, I was a too brief. Of course arahnants still have concepts occuring so often. The difference is that they penetrate realities too and are confused about neither. The 'uninstructed wordling' is unaware of realities and takes concepts to be real: some even deny realities. The Udanaatthakatha (trans. masefield p.878)Blind from birth chapter:"since they do not know Dhamma, they do not know that which is not Dhamma either. ....... they neither know dhamma to be a thing having an own nature (sabhava), nor do they know that which is not dhamma to be a thing lacking an own nature.(Dhammam sabhavadhammam..adhammam asabhavadhammam) And as such they declare a thing having an own nature as though it were a thing lacking an own nature....""endquote What I was meaning - and as you have clarified very well- is this: (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) "it is ignorance since it causes beings to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it is ignorance since it darts among those things which do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and since it does not dart among those things that do exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, paramattha dhammas]." BTW this is a nice turn of phrase, Dan: "One advantage of Abhidhamma studies as a practice is that the voice of the master is never far away -- so much constant guidance" Robk 28243 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Howard, Just a quick clarification for now: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > SN = Samyutta Nikaya? Or SN = Sutta Nipata? (I own each, in any > case.) > ---------------------------------------------- SN = Samyutta Nikaya aka Kindred Sayings (PTS) or Connected Discourses (B.Bodhi, Wisdom). I believe SN or S are the standard abbreviations and Sn is the standard one for Sutta Nipata. I agree it's confusing and I was being lazy on this. Devatasamyutta which James and I have been quoting from, is the first chapter of the first section or book (Sagathavagga - Book of Verses) of SN. I'm glad you have a copy. Time to take it off the shelf and give it a dust ready for the New Year along with Visuddhimagga and Dhammasangani;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 28244 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Larry (& James), > (I realize there's quite a lot of Pali and detail here. James, pls say if you'd like it broken down further and either I'll be glad to later or someone else will help in the meantime.) > ************* Hi Sarah, Sarah: (I realize there's quite a lot of Pali and detail here. James, pls say if you'd like it broken down further and either I'll be glad to later or someone else will help in the meantime.) James: No thank you. I can understand it just fine. I agree with the general idea that Nina conveys in her book about equanimity (except it being a cetasika). If find the metaphor from the Vism quite useless, "It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly." Using the term equanimity to define equanimity is asinine, and I really don't think that any driver of horses is going to have equanimity when he observes them progressing evenly. This is a very poor metaphor in my estimation. I believe that I have been using this term correctly; I believe that you are the one mistaken in its use. Never did I believe that equanimity was defined as a `neutral or indifferent feeling' nor did I state as such. I have consistently contended that equanimity is the absence of feeling. You are the one, I believe, who has stated that equanimity can be present during various feelings and reactions to various stimuli. You wrote: It's true as you say that rt concentration (and all good cittas) are accompanied by equanimity. However, these will also be accompanied by either neutral or pleasant feeling. There are lots of textual references to rt concentration with pleasant feeling and joy (as I was discussing with Michael). I replied: You are contradicting yourself, equanimity and pleasant feeling cannot arise together. When there is any pleasant feeling, then there is no more equanimity. [Note: I would have included your previous use of `neutral feeling' in this sentence but I wanted to focus on the bliss of jhanas, which you focus on.] I believe I understand the term correctly. If you or anyone believes I am mistaken, I would welcome them to say so. I hope that you have a good time with your visiting family. Don't concern yourself with getting back to me quickly. Metta, James 28245 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: anapana sati 8 c anapana sati 8 c As Jon said, And also: I would add:the bhikkhus the sutta was addressed to were highly adept, they were arahats or they had accumulations to attain arahatship. We read even after the first tetrad in the Visuddhimagga: We also read in the Vis. VIII, 155: **** Nina. 28246 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi Howard, op 24-12-2003 03:45 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ============================ > The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a problem > with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) that is > responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no sense to me. Sexual > characteristics are determined by genes and other biological structures, > pa~n~natti > all. N: It is not helpful to compare rupa-dhammas with genes, etc. Different fields, different goals. H: That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be > born > female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out by various > Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of femininity that arises > from time to time, like pleasantness and odors and sounds arise is simply a > piece > of nonsense to me. N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of rupas. Some groups are produced by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature and some by nutrition. So long as these conditions are present, rupas that have fallen away are replaced. I cannot give you mathematical proofs, I can only try to give some additional explanations for those who like details. Not everybody likes subcommentaries and so many details, it depends on the individual, no problem at all. I like details, I like reading the Tiika texts and try to translate just for a few people who may be interested, that is all. H: The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is NO evidence. N: I understand your point. Without life-faculty you would be dead, like a log. At death kamma stops producing life-faculty. It stops also producing the heartbase. H: Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the > same way as all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. N: It is a rupa what else. It is also one of the four factors that produces other rupas. When Larry gets to it I can give more explanations, but only suitable for those who like details. H: The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in this > problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions arise, there > occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of the ability to see is > the > "opening (or activation) of the eye door," with the capacity to see being the > eye-door rupa. The other four physical sense doors are similar. They are > physical capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. N: Yes, it is also in the Suttanta,(many suttas on doorways, and also we have to know , we have to know them all in the end. Thus, it is pure Abhidhamma we also find in the sutta. For this subject we would have to go to the Dhammasangani, with those difficult translated words. If you have some concrete texts you are interested in I am glad to help out if I can. But a little at a time, since I should spend time now on the latent tendencies. H: Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest elements > of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to think that there is > any validity to these notions as given there. N: I understand, it does not matter at all. It is best if you just study what you like to study, that is the natural course. Some people become irritated by details, and it is of no use to continue then. Nina. 28247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: FW: [Pali] profitable craving Dear Sarah, I looked again at Co Netti which I could not read long ago, but now I can read it. It is very good. Here is frwd what I wrote about this subject: Dear John, I am sorry, the thorn sutta( A. V, 135) is not about craving for arahatship. But I was thinking more about craving that is profitable: Netti: 87 and its Co. Netti (The Guide, transl by Ven. Nyanamoli) states: And Netti, 508: This brings us to M. 137, explaining about sorrow connected with renunciation and how this sorrow arises as a result of desire. But first the Tiika to the Netti: I only had a quick glance and will study it later on more in detail: it elaborates that akusala tanhaa does not lead to the end of the cycle, but that pahaana tanhaa does. As to kusala tanhaa, it mentions that this is a category of teaching (desana haara). It then gives a key: it has become upanissaya paccaya: strong dependence-condition. In the Abhidhamma, the Patthana, it is explained under natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya, that kusala can condition kusala, but also that akusala can condition kusala. Because of aversion towards akusala vipaaka or attachment to kusala vipaaka one may perform good deeds. One may regret the akusala one performed and to counteract it one performs kusala. We read (Pa.t.thaana, Faultless Triplet VII, Investigation Ch, Conditions, Positive, § 423, V): Thus, tanhaa is lobha cetasika, it is akusala, but, it can be a condition for attaining arahatship, and as such it can be called profitable. In order to attain arahatship it must be object of insight. The Commentary to M. 137: As to six joys connected with worldly life (gehatani), these are based on the kaamagu.na: sensepleasures. As to six joys connected with renunciation: these are dependent on vipassana. (In the sutta is explained about the three characteristics). Six sorrows connected with worldly life are described in the Sutta. As to those connected with renunciation: domanassa arises in the person who desires for arahatship. He does not develop vipassana further, by seeing impermanence etc. , so that he can attain arahatship. An example is given of Mahaa-Siiva who cried and was full of sorrow because he could not attain arahatship this fortnight, this month, this year. Nina. op 21-12-2003 02:54 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@y...: > Does anyone know where in the Pali canon there is a > simile about removing a thorn with a thorn then > throwing both thorns away? This is in reference to > craving for Arahatship helps motivate one to attain > Arahatship, and so end all craving. > 28248 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi Larry, op 24-12-2003 01:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I have to > say, in my experience, desire, aversion, and bewilderment ALWAYS arise > with tangible data in the form of internal bodily sensations (with > bodily feeling) and NEVER arise with only mental feeling (without > tangible data). In fact, tangible data is often the most distinctive > aspect of the experience. If I conceptually formulate an aversion, it > doesn't seem "real" until tangible data arise. N: There is not only bodyconsciousness and tangible data in the world, there is so much more. We read in the M. 137, The Analysis of the Sixfold, about six internal sensefields: the eye, the ear (by the way, all this is Abhidhamma in the sutta), the external sensefields: visible object, etc, the six classes of consciousness, six classes of contact, eighteen feelings on account of the six classes of objects: joy, sorrow, equanimity. It seems that there is the experience of tangible data all the time, but in reality they are interspersed with all other kinds of dhammas. Of course, desire, aversion, and bewilderment can condition tangible data in their turn, but these are not the only dhammas that arise and appear. What about seeing or hearing? You wrote to Howard:L: That "feeling" is tangible data, a rupa. Often, I can only define my emotion (mental formation) by deciphering the tangible data. The actual feeling (vedana) is really too elusive to catch or analyze (for me). N: Feeling experiences, it is nama, not rupa. Of course we cannot catch it, we cannot catch any dhamma. It is gone immediately. When sati arises (provided there are the right conditions for it) it can be aware of dhammas and thus, gradually nama and rupa can be understood. Sati and panna are much faster than you or me! Nina. 28249 From: abhidhammika Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan and Thomas Dear Alan, Thomas and all How are you? As Thomas wrote, Gotama the Buddha had undergone countless previous lives of all kinds - including animals. This cycle of death and rebirth is called Samsaaro, as you already know. By the way, in line with the teaching of selflessness (anattakathaa), the term "rebirth" is better in the context of Buddhism than the term "reincarnation". As Hindus believe in unchanging self (attaa), the term "reincarnation" may suit their background belief. The whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to help us break ourselves free from Samsaaro. The Buddha discovered how to end his own Samsaaro, and taught others to do likewise. That is to say, he can no longer be reborn. In other words, Gotama the Buddha has successfully terminated his sentient emergence. But, Vishnu, if he existed at all, does not seem to want to end his Samsaaro. That is to say, he might well be somewhere in the world of Samsaaro. Alan should check with his Hindu gurus about the fate and whereabouts of Vishnu. Alan also wrote, perhaps echoing Hindu teachers: "Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created." The above statement was wrong and unfair. We can't reduce the Buddha to even the level of an ordinary Arahant, despite Arahantship being the final goal of the Buddha's tachings. Therefore, reducing the Buddha to the level of a great yoga teacher was wrong and unfair. It is worth remembering that the Hindu Yoga, due to its belief in eternal self, does not lead to the level of a Stream-insider (Sotaapanno), the first-stage attainment of awakening or enlightenment (bodhi) which requires eradication of self-view (belief in an individual self and/or a cosmic Self, usually the equivalent of the Creator). The religion of Buddhism, if it meant Saasanaa or the Turning of Dhamma Wheel, began with the First Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam) of the Buddha that taught the Four Noble Truths to the Five Ascetics, the former attendants of the Buddha. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: I'm not sure, the Buddha told stories of 500 former life times to his disciples. Would this work, if he would have been Vishnu? -- I have not enough knowledge about Hinduism... just a thought... Thomas ukvegans wrote: Hi All, It is said that Hindus believe that Buddha was the 9th re-incarnation of Vishnu, and that buddha reached enlightenment by practising the eight limbs of yoga. Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his death that the religion of buddhism was created. 28250 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 12/23/03 11:06:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "I'm not clear on what you are saying. Do you mean that > pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutral feeling only occur with an > object that is a bodily sensation?" > > Hi Howard, > > Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily feeling only occur with rupa. > Another interpretation is that pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral bodily > feeling only occur with tangible data. Therefore they only arise with > vipaka citta as object (according to Nina). Pleasant, unpleasant, and > neutral mental feeling can arise with either nama or rupa as object. > However, it is my experience that tangible data arises with mental > formations. When I am angry I "feel" angry. That "feeling" is tangible > data, a rupa. Often, I can only define my emotion (mental formation) by > deciphering the tangible data. The actual feeling (vedana) is really too > elusive to catch or analyze (for me). > > Larry > ======================== Sorry, I'm still not clear. Are you saying that emotions all have a physical component? I think that is quite true, though the physical component needn't be the object of the very same mindstate. There could be anger as concomitant to a state having some thought as object, and that mindstate (or sequence of states) could be immediately followed by a number of states with bodily sensations as object (bodily warmth, tightness, shaking, etc), with anger repeated in some or all of these subsequent states as well; but in the original angry state in which the angering thought occurred as object, that thought had to have been the only object, and, so, no rupa was present. As far as vedana, itself, is concerned, it is evident but subtle compared to emotion, because it is the mere affective taste of the object - the pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality of feeling. Because it is relatively low-key, it is often hard to separate out from strong accompanying emotions which overwhelm it. (It's analogous to trying to hear a little child ask you a question during the finale of an orchestral performance, or to noticing the still, small voice of conscience in the midst of a crescendo of powerful lust. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28251 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/24/03 6:26:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Just a quick clarification for now: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > SN = Samyutta Nikaya? Or SN = Sutta Nipata? (I own each, in any > >case.) > >---------------------------------------------- > > SN = Samyutta Nikaya aka Kindred Sayings (PTS) or Connected Discourses > (B.Bodhi, Wisdom). I believe SN or S are the standard abbreviations and Sn > is the standard one for Sutta Nipata. I agree it's confusing and I was > being lazy on this. > > Devatasamyutta which James and I have been quoting from, is the first > chapter of the first section or book (Sagathavagga - Book of Verses) of > SN. > > I'm glad you have a copy. Time to take it off the shelf and give it a dust > ready for the New Year along with Visuddhimagga and Dhammasangani;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========================== I've read through the SN several times, but there is no end to the usefulness of its study. I will be happy to discuss some of the suttas therein with you and James and anyone else on DSG. BTW, to whatever extent you or anyone else here celebrate Xmas - as a cultural matter, or even religiously - I wish you all a very Merry Christmas! The holiday represents peace, and I wish that for all of us and for the world. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28252 From: Larry Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:11am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV 58 "'As regards the "mark of the female", etc., too, its "facultiness" is stated as predominance, in other words, as a state of cause, because the conditions for the modal matter (aakaara-ruupa) consisting of the mark of the female, etc., in a continuity accompanied by faculties do not arise otherwise, and because these kinds of materiality are a condition for apprehending the female. But because the femininity faculty does not generate even the material instances in its own group or maintain or consolidate them, and because it does not so act for the material instances of other groups, it is therefore not called in the text faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, as the life faculty is for the material instances of its group, and as nutriment is for the material instances in succeeding groups. And it is because the mark, etc., are dependent on other conditions that wherever they have predominance its shape is encountered, even in dead and sculptured matter that resembles it. And so too with the masculinity faculty." Hi all, Here is a slightly simpler interpretation of this commentary passage. The femininity and masculinity faculties are faculties in name only. They are actually concepts that encompass diverse rupa faculties that are grouped as characteristics of masculinity and femininity. For example, to analyze femininity (always great fun), we could say ovaries and breasts are different faculties with different powers but they both characterize femininity. If we look into the ways and work of the feminine we could ultimately find a rupa faculty. Howard suggested genes. That these are all characterized conceptually is inevitable. There is no other way to communicate. That they are not analyzed in great detail is because this knowledge isn't necessary for release. Have a happy holiday everyone. May you all celebrate birth, life, and good will. And may all your immaculate conceptions come to fruition. Larry 28253 From: Larry Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] tangible data and mental formations Hi Howard, I think we are in agreement. I just have one comment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Larry - > Sorry, I'm still not clear. Are you saying that emotions all have a > physical component? Larry: Yes. >I think that is quite true, though the physical component > needn't be the object of the very same mindstate. > There could be anger as concomitant to a state having some thought as > object, and that mindstate (or sequence of states) could be immediately > followed by a number of states with bodily sensations as object (bodily warmth, > tightness, shaking, etc), with anger repeated in some or all of these subsequent > states as well; but in the original angry state in which the angering thought > occurred as object, that thought had to have been the only object, and, so, no > rupa was present. Larry: It "seems" that the physical component accompanies the cetasikas with the apprehending consciousness. This could only be if it were "tucked-in" with vedana. Abhidhamma doesn't support this of course. However, I couldn't find any account of this internal sensation, either as rupa or as vedana. Even if it were vedana, I think Nina would have a problem with bodily feeling apprehending a concept. > As far as vedana, itself, is concerned, it is evident but subtle > compared to emotion, because it is the mere affective taste of the object - the > pleasantness, unpleasantness, or neutrality of feeling. Because it is relatively > low-key, it is often hard to separate out from strong accompanying emotions > which overwhelm it. (It's analogous to trying to hear a little child ask you a > question during the finale of an orchestral performance, or to noticing the > still, small voice of conscience in the midst of a crescendo of powerful lust. > ;-) > > With metta, > Howard Larry 28254 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:51am Subject: Re: Noticeable difference? Dear Christine, You ask: "For those of us studying the Dhamma, reflecting on what we have learned, associating with admirable friends and diligently practising according to Dhamma - should all this conscientious effort and application make a noticeable difference ... to our characters and personalities?" This is a great question. I'd respond with a qualified "yes", i.e., yes, unless your defilements are already terrifically reduced relative to most people, or unless there is some persistent misunderstanding that prevents a proper practice of the Dhamma. I'm not great with navigating the texts, but I can still find some support in the Kalama sutta (A 3:65): "When you know in yourselves: 'These things are wholesome, blameless, and commended by the wise, being adopted and put into effect lead to welfare and happiness,' then you should practise them and abide in them." Frequently, people can readily discern in others the difference between "welfare and happiness" and anger, fear, hatred, doubt, worry, restlessness, boredom, sloth-and-torpor, attachment. If the diligent practice does not lead to an increase in welfare and happiness, then something is wrong. There are a number of possibilities that boil down to two: (1) the Dhamma itself is "unwholesome, liable to censure, condemned by the wise"; and (2) there is some basic misunderstanding of the Dhamma that is heard, so it is not properly being adopted and put into effect. I'm of a mind that the Dhamma is wholesome, blameless, and commended by the wise, so I'd lean to the latter explanation. Is the Dhamma that is heard wrong (i.e., are the "admirable friends" really "wise friends")? Is it being taught in a way that the true Dhamma is made comprehensible through practice? Also, a possibility is that the diligent practice does lead to an increase in welfare and happiness that oneself recognizes but others do not. This might occur if the heap of defilements started out very small so others would not discern a difference, or if the happiness is really derived from an increase in lobha rather than wisdom, which others might well notice but not regard as a real improvement. I also recall reading somewhere that proper practice leads to increasing detachment. Increasing detachment would bring certainly bring with it increases in compassion, metta, mudita, tranquillity, lightness, rectitude. These would be duly recognized by oneself and should be apparent to others as well. I'm sure there are other passages in the texts that support this idea, but I could only think of the 1 1/4 that I listed above. There are some more detailed Christian sayings that list the fruits of the spirit: Galatians 5:22-23a --> "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." These are also fruits of wisdom. The Christians start from there and then go on to say that if the teachings are truly understood, then a difference would be noticeable by others: John 13:35 --> "By this all men will know that you are my disciples: if you love one another." I just thought of another one from Buddha (one of my favorites): "even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching." (Mn 21) This kind of carrying out of the practice would surely be noticeable, but that bar might be a little too high for me to leap right now! Dan 28255 From: Alan Bell Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan and Thomas Dear Suan, Many thanks for the reply. Some further comments. higlighted with **** >The whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to help us break >ourselves free from Samsaaro. **** this is the same as the fundamental vedic beliefs which arose from the the Upanishads. >The Buddha discovered how to end his own Samsaaro, and taught others >to do likewise. That is to say, he can no longer be reborn. **** where does the energy go ? As in physics, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The buddha aligned with his true Self and is likley to now exist in the causal plain. The causal plain being where pure souls (if you like) reside and are not re-born / re-incarnated. Or he could be in the astral plane and not be re-born for many more centuries ... >In other words, Gotama the Buddha has successfully terminated his >sentient emergence. **** How do we know this for sure ? >But, Vishnu, if he existed at all, does not seem to want to end his >Samsaaro. That is to say, he might well be somewhere in the world of >Samsaaro. Alan should check with his Hindu gurus about the fate and >whereabouts of Vishnu. **** same could be said regarding Buddha, who many have said was a great saint as was vishnu, siva etc ... born to the earth for noble reasons to move humanity forward. Buddha was a true saint of compassion, and was born at a time to take humanity forward to the next level of conciousness. >Alan also wrote, perhaps echoing Hindu teachers: >"Buddha was a great yoga teacher, and it was many years after his >death that the religion of buddhism was created." >The above statement was wrong and unfair. We can't reduce the Buddha >to even the level of an ordinary Arahant, despite Arahantship being >the final goal of the Buddha's tachings. Therefore, reducing the >Buddha to the level of a great yoga teacher was wrong and unfair. **** sorry, don't mean to offend - just debate. However, he did reach enlightenment by practising Dhyana, the seventh limb of the eight limbs of yoga. >It is worth remembering that the Hindu Yoga, due to its belief in >eternal self, does not lead to the level of a Stream-insider >(Sotaapanno), the first-stage attainment of awakening or >enlightenment (bodhi) which requires eradication of self-view (belief >in an individual self and/or a cosmic Self, usually the equivalent of >the Creator). **** What is the difference between enlightenment and Self-realization (or samadhi) ? >The religion of Buddhism, if it meant Saasanaa or the Turning of >Dhamma Wheel, began with the First Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana >Suttam) of the Buddha that taught the Four Noble Truths to the Five >Ascetics, the former attendants of the Buddha. **** Buddha came to the world to show the path of righteousness, to destroy the path of error, and to break down sorrow. Buddhism is not agnosticism or atheism. Buddha did not deny God. He only said: "Do not bother about questions like 'Is there God?', 'Do I exist?', 'Is the world real or not?'. Do not waste your time and energy in useless discussions. Become a practical religious man. Purify your heart. Control the mind. Lead a virtuous life. You will attain Nirvana or emancipation or eternal bliss." To accuse Buddha as an atheist or agnostic is simply foolish. Buddha found no use in metaphysical wrangling. He declined to enter into metaphysics. Is there God or no God? Is life eternal or non-eternal? These questions were set aside as not requiring an answer for the attainment of Nirvana. The immediate great problem for Buddha was suffering and annihilation of suffering. He asked his followers not to bother about transcendental questions. He set aside all those things which did not help towards the attainment of the goal. He thought it wise to give his followers a way, and not a creed. He thought that speculation about the nature of the ultimate reality was an unnecessary drag on the path of truth and spiritual attainment. The vital and fundamental thing is not to discuss about the ultimate, but to tread the path which takes man out of the world of pain and suffering into supreme abode of eternal bliss and immortality. The nature of the ultimate truth is beyond the reach of mind and speech. If Buddha refused to define the nature of the Absolute, or if he contended himself with negative definitions, it is only to show that the Absolute or the Ultimate is above all definitions Buddhism was founded by Gautama Sakya Muni, the rebel child of Hinduism. It sprang up directly from Hinduism. Buddha never thought of founding a new religion. He made no new discovery. He was proclaiming only the ancient and pure form of religion which had prevailed among the Hindus. The pure and noble religion of the Vedas and the Upanishads had degenerated into dead forms, unmeaning rites and ceremonies. The Brahmins claimed honour merely by their birth. They neglected the study of the Vedas and the practice of virtue. The Brahmins were treated with undue leniency, and the Sudras (the servant class) with undue severity. In order that flesh-eating might have the sanction religion, animals were slaughtered and sacrificed in Yajnas (ceremony where sacrifice is offered). Such was the state of society at the time when Buddha appeared. His tender and loving heart could not bear the shedding of so much innocent blood in the sacred name religion. Buddha declared that merit, and not birth, determined the position of a man in society. The persecuted Sudras joined him in large numbers and he unconsciously became the founder of a new faith. Buddhism is the religion of earnest, undaunted effort. Buddha demands from you faith in your own Self, in your own latent forces. Without this faith, nothing can be achieved. The first words of Buddha, after his Enlightenment, were: "Wide open are the gates of Immortality. Ye that ears to hear, release your faith." peace and light, Alan 28256 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV 58 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/24/03 11:14:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi all, > > Here is a slightly simpler interpretation of this commentary passage. > The femininity and masculinity faculties are faculties in name only. > They are actually concepts that encompass diverse rupa faculties that > are grouped as characteristics of masculinity and femininity. For > example, to analyze femininity (always great fun), we could say > ovaries and breasts are different faculties with different powers but > they both characterize femininity. If we look into the ways and work > of the feminine we could ultimately find a rupa faculty. Howard > suggested genes. That these are all characterized conceptually is > inevitable. There is no other way to communicate. That they are not > analyzed in great detail is because this knowledge isn't necessary > for release. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: C'mon, Larry. it seems to me that what you are saying is that you also cannot buy a rupa that is masculinity/femininity. There are just the vague concepts pertaining to a variety of physical structures and functions. Nobody can really point out a femininity rupa or masculinity rupa because there are no such things!! ------------------------------------------------ > > Have a happy holiday everyone. May you all celebrate birth, life, and > good will. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You, too! ------------------------------------------------- And may all your immaculate conceptions come to fruition.> > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed. May the immaculate conception that is the conceiving of the seed of awakening (liberating wisdom) occur soon for all of us and quickly bear the fruit of full realization of nibbana, the perfectly immaculate state. ----------------------------------------------- > Larry > ======================== With immaculate metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28257 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:46am Subject: Re: moha Dear Robert, Good quotes! Is the following from The Udanaatthakatha as well? > (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > since it does not dart among those things that do > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > paramattha dhammas]." I wonder what "darts among" means... Dan 28258 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi Larry, op 23-12-2003 22:55 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > Very good explanation. I don't have anything to add except possibly > about the hermaphrodite. The commentary says there is only > masculinity or only femininity at any given moment. Does this mean > masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of > predominance condition? N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or masculinity is there. This is also in the Yamaka. But I do not know anything about the subject of hermaphrodites. > L: ps: I think what Howard was objecting to is all the concepts involved > in "mark, sign, work, and ways" and similarly the concepts involved > in describing the sense organs. It appears that all these concepts > are being classified as paramattha dhammas. What about that? N: Concepts are used to describe how sex faculty, a dhamma, operates, is the cause of all these things, outward appearance, behaviour, etc. Nina. 28259 From: Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, explanations. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/24/03 1:06:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, in reply to Larry's inquiry: > Does this mean > >masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of > >predominance condition? you wrote: > N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or > masculinity is there. However, in a previous reply to me you wrote: > N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of > rupas. Now, when I said "from time to time," I meant not in every mindstate. I'm not clear on what you are saying with regard to this. Are you saying that is evry process of states it occurs, but not in each state? With metta, Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28260 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Hi, All, I am a little behind in those msg retrieval, can someone shed some light on it where to go to msg# 27992, etc. Thanks. Eddie Lou --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Eddie Lou, > > Thanks for your interest in Dhamma. Sarah has linked > the site for > easy access and see her post ( Msg ) #28193. Or > number (09) is at > (Mag ) # 27992 and you can go to there. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 28261 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Alan / Any thoughts Dear Alan, I can understand you ideas very good. I am a buddhist but interested in Hinduism as well. The reason why is the following: When Gautama became the Buddha, many things in Hinduism changed, and today enlightened beings like Ajja (Hindu guru) studied buddhism as well. We can no longer seperate really Hinduism from Buddhism, in fact, the Hindu masters and gurus learn from the Buddha how to attain enlightenment.. the very last little details that were missing in the old Hindu practices. It's not much Hinduism has to adapt additional, just some little details. What you call "God" , the buddha called "Dharma." Just words, the same thing. Of course it has nothing to do with the Christian idea of an interacting all-powerul being. The best example to enlightenment is the now living Hindu guru Ajja. He studied Hindusim and Buddhism, and if you read his very rare interviews (some quotes are on http://www.shakumasu.com ), you will realize, that he talks more like the Buddha than Hindu. However, it's not important... religions are a vehicle... the truth is no vehicle, it simply IS. Many of your questions deal with your perception of "the Self." Stop thinking in religions, and start with contemplation about impermanence, emptiness and the mind. You will find, that you are mind - the Pure Mind, the mirror-mind. This mirror - like any mirror - can't see itself. This is why we create the idea of "a Self." To understand rebirth you first have to understand and then realize deeply the emptiness of existence. The Hindu guru Ajja is a enlightened being, using the Buddhas vehicel in combination with Hinduism, he says: "The Thinking must stop!" and he says " Ajja: One loses his existence through knowledge and action. Through these he becomes free. Then he himself is a jivan mukta [liberated person]. But when that "I" has gone, what is there? Where is the question then? AC (interviewer): Even though he is free, isn't the jnani [Self-realized individual], the jivan mukta, still expressing something through his actions? Ajja: I don't have the awareness that "I'm a jnani" or "I'm a jivan mukta." I don't have anything. When the "I" has gone, the consciousness does not even raise the feeling of "I." That is completely gone. So for a jnani that question does not even arise. When there is no question of thinking, then ordinary action in day-to-day life does not take place. Our thoughts are transformed into contemplation. Then our day-to-day routine interactions become spiritual. In that, the regular routine itself becomes spiritual life. That itself is yogic life. That itself is divine life. ...." ------- Nirvana is nothing but the return to what we are. We are now a pizza with cheese and sausage and anchovis... take away the dough and the cheese and the sausage and finally the anchovis ... and then you are what you are. You can't see yourself, your six senses become enlightenment and SEE all that is, without asking, "why" or "do I like this?" or "who is the one seeing this" ... all those questions are not important to an enlightened being. He simply is. -- The first step towards this is to accept things as they are. Start with the religions: don't have likes and dislikes, don't quarrel over vishnu or buddha, over jesus or krishna... they have found their place. We don't. Profit from the wisdom of the sages. Gassho, Thomas 28262 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan and Thomas Dear Suan Lu Zaw, Thank you, I am aware of this. For me the Buddha is more than a good yoga teacher. In fact, without the Buddha I would most likely be already in the animal or hells realms. And don't worry, the Buddhas are beyond this statements, untouched and ever still. Gassho, Thomas abhidhammika wrote: Dear Alan, Thomas and all How are you? As Thomas wrote, Gotama the Buddha had undergone countless previous lives of all kinds - including animals. This cycle of death and rebirth is called Samsaaro, as you already know. ... 28263 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Hi Eddie, When searching for a particular number message, click on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/ then scroll to the small box marked "Msg # ". Type in 27992 (or whatever message you are looking for) and click on 'go'. OR If looking for the messages from a particular person (say, htoo naing). Go to the escribe archive at: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ type the name htoo naing in the search box, click on 'search' and it will bring up the 217 messages he has posted so far to dsg, or which mention his name. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Eddie Lou wrote: > Hi, All, > I am a little behind in those msg retrieval, can > someone shed some light on it where to go to msg# > 27992, etc. > > Thanks. > Eddie Lou > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Dear Eddie Lou, > > > > Thanks for your interest in Dhamma. Sarah has linked > > the site for > > easy access and see her post ( Msg ) #28193. Or > > number (09) is at > > (Mag ) # 27992 and you can go to there. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > http://companion.yahoo.com/ 28264 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: moha -In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Robert, > Good quotes! Is the following from The Udanaatthakatha as well? > > > (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > > since it does not dart among those things that do > > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > > paramattha dhammas]." > > I wonder what "darts among" means... > > Dan ======== Dear Dan, yes from the Udanaatthakatha translated by Masefield. Good question about 'darts' , I haven't looked at the pali, so better not guess:) Rob 28265 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Bangkok trip Hi , anyone know what are the dates for the trip to Thailand in January? Rob 28266 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:14pm Subject: The mirror The mirror reflects all that is, but the mirror can't reflect itself. Who am I? I am the mirror. 28267 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: Bangkok trip Dear Robert, This is an excerpt from a letter from Betty, and, as far as I understand, these arrangements still stand. "Than Achaan has set aside the following dates for discussions at the Foundation: Thursday-Saturday, January 29-31, from 2-4pm each day, with the possibility that the time can be extended in the afternoons as desired. A morning discussion will also be held on the 29th, from 9-11:30am. However, we are also free to hold discussions on Friday and Saturday mornings (30th, 31st), although without Than Achaan. Than Achaan will be free for lunch on the 29th ... " Betty - if anything has changed, can you let people know please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Hi , > anyone know what are the dates for the trip to Thailand in January? > Rob 28268 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ========================== > So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and masculine > faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of what we > conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? Will someone say > they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like > jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is handled in Abhidhamma. > =============== Dear Howard, I am suitably energised by your criticism of femininity and masculinity in the Abhidhamma. So I have done a quick internet search and found a daily life comparison that surely shows the truth of the Abhidhamma. OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WOMEN: 1)Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since the last oil change. 2)Drink a cup of coffee. 3)15 minutes later write a check and leave with a properly maintained vehicle. Money spent: Oil Change: $25.00 Coffee: Free to customers Total $25.00 ................................................................. OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR MEN: 1) Wait until Saturday, drive to auto parts store and buy a case of oil, filter, kitty litter, hand cleaner and a scented tree, write a check for $50.00. 2) Stop by 7 - 11 and buy a case of beer, write a check for $20.00, drive home. 3) Open a beer and drink it. 4) Jack car up. Spend 30 minutes looking for jack stands. 5) Find jack stands under kid's pedal car. 6) In frustration, open another beer and drink it. 7) Place drain pan under engine. 8) Look for 9/16 box end wrench. 9) Give up and use crescent wrench. 10) Unscrew drain plug. 11) Drop drain plug in pan of hot oil: splash hot oil on face and arms in process. Cuss. 12) Crawl out from under car to wipe hot oil off of face and arms. Throw kitty litter on spilled oil. 13) Have another beer while watching oil drain. 14) Spend 30 minutes looking for oil filter wrench. 15) Give up; crawl under car and hammer a screwdriver through oilfilter and twist off. 16) Crawl out from under car with dripping oil filter splashing oil everywhere from holes. Cleverly hide old oil filter among trash in trash can to avoid environmental penalties. Drink a beer. 17) Buddy shows up; finish case of beer with him. Decide to finish oil change tomorrow so you can go see his new garage door opener work. 18) Sunday: Skip church because "I gotta finish the oil change Drag pan full of old oil out from underneath car. Cleverly dump oil in hole in back yard instead of taking it to recycle. 19) Throw kitty litter on oil spilled during step 18. 20) Beer. No, drank it all yesterday. 21) Walk to 7-11; buy beer. 22) Install new oil filter making sure to apply a thin coat of oil to gasket surface. 23) Dump first quart of fresh oil into engine. 24) Remember drain plug from step 11. 25) Hurry to find drain plug in drain pan. 26) Remember that the used oil is buried in a hole in the back yard along with drain plug. 27) Drink beer. 28) Shovel out hole and sift oily mud for drain plug. Re-shovel oily patch of ground and avoid environmental penalties. Wash drain plug in lawn mower gas. 29)Discover that first quart of fresh oil is now on the floor. Throw kitty litter on oil spill. 30) Drink beer. 31) Crawl under car getting kitty litter into eyes. Wipe eyes with oily rag used to clean drain plug. Slip with stupid crescent wrench tightening drain plug and bang knuckles on frame. 32) Bang head on floorboards in reaction to step 31. 33) Begin cussing fit. 34) Throw stupid crescent wrench. 35) Cuss for additional 10 minutes because wrench hit Miss August (2002) 36) Beer. 37) Clean up hands and forehead and bandage as required to stop blood flow. 38) Beer. 39) Beer. 40) Dump in five fresh quarts of oil. 41) Beer. 42) Lower car from jack stands. 43) Accidentally crush remaining case of new motor oil. 44) Move car back to apply more kitty litter to fresh oil spilled during steps 23-43. 45) Beer. 46) Test drive car. 47) Get pulled over: arrested for driving under the influence. 48) Car gets impounded. 49) Call loving wife, make bail. 50) 12 hours later, get car from impound yard. -- But you know the job was done right, and, after all, quality costs a bit extra... RobertK 28269 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 8 b Nina I'm finding very useful the re-run through this series. Lots of interesting detail and good references. Is there any chance of a consolidated (i.e. single file) version at the end? Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > anapanasati 8 b > > We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: > is mundane > (lokiya); mundane breathing in and out perfects the mundane > foundations of > mindfulness; the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the > supramundane > (lokuttara) enlightenment factors; the supramundane enlightenment > factors > perfect nibbana as the fruit of clear vision and deliverance> > The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that > in this > sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness > perfect > the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear > vision > (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which > are > lokuttara. Because in this sutta 3clear vision and deliverance2 > designate > clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> ... 28270 From: Alan Bell Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] Alan / Any thoughts Dear Thomas, Thank you for your wisdom. What type of buddhism do you practice - Zen ? in light, Alan 28271 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Howard (and All) Many thanks for your very kind Christmas wishes (in another post), and my best wishes to you and to all members. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - Howard: The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a problem with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) that is responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no sense to me. Sexual characteristics are determined by genes and other biological structures, pa~n~natti all. Jon: You say there cannot be a rupa that is responsible for sexual characteristics because that is determined by genes and other biological structures which, as we know, are pannatti. By the same logic there could not be a rupa that is eyesense, or visible-object, or whatever, since any function that you might care to mention is conventionally ascribed to some pannatti or other. Howard: That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be born female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out by various Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of femininity that arises from time to time, like pleasantness and odors and sounds arise is simply a piece of nonsense to me. Jon: I think you'd agree that this is an assessment made from the perspective of your own deeply-held views. But it's good that you vent your exasperation! Howard: The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is NO evidence. Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the same way as all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. Jon: As long as the Abhidhamma is evaluated by reference to conventional conceptual thinking it will remain a puzzle and may even appear to be nonsense. However, I'm sure you can see from your experience with the suttas, where the same situation applies, that that approach is not conducive to a proper appreciation of the teachings. Howard: The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in this problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions arise, there occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of the ability to see is the "opening (or activation) of the eye door," with the capacity to see being the eye-door rupa. The other four physical sense doors are similar. They are physical capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. Jon: The list of Howard's pet peeves grows! Howard: Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest elements of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to think that there is any validity to these notions as given there. Jon: As Nina has said, there is no need to be overly concerned about those aspects that don't appeal, and it might even be a mistake to dwell on them if they invoke a reaction. But if there is any confidence in the teachings as a whole, and I know there is plenty in your case, one can also acknowledge that the weakness might just as likely lie with our own way of thinking, and not with the Abhidhamma, especially given the long and illustrious pedigree of the latter (it helps for me, anyway ;-)). Jon 28272 From: nordwest Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Alan / Any thoughts I practice Traditional (Chinese) Pure Land Buddhism, on base of Jodo Shinshu (True Pure Land), but I am interestd in all kind of spiritual development that helps me understand "why" to practice this or that. metta, Thomas Alan Bell wrote:Dear Thomas, Thank you for your wisdom. What type of buddhism do you practice - Zen ? in light, Alan 28273 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:39am Subject: Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) Hi Howard (James & All), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I've read through the SN several times, but there is no end to > the > usefulness of its study. I will be happy to discuss some of the suttas > therein > with you and James and anyone else on DSG. .... That’s great! Do you have the B.Bodhi transl or the PTS one? I know Christine also has the BB one and I’m sure many others do, so hope everyone chips in from time to time, sharing any suttas they like as we go through. I have a Qu on referencing after a brief chat w/James, which maybe anyone could comment on. I’m thinking that the easiest way to give references would be to follow the ATI format. For example, SN1, 38 (8) refers to Samyutta Nikaya, Devatasamyutta, 38(8) The Stone Splinter on p116 in our BB transl. ATI gives this as SN1.38 The Stone Sliver (Sakalika sutta). RobK or Nina, would this -SN1,38(8)- be clear enough for someone using the PTS transl? [For anyone wishing to access the Pali, this could be found at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/index.html 1. 4. 8. Sakalikasutta, 38. Is it acceptable? ..... For notes in the BB transl, we could just put note 41: or note 41, p.357: Spk: refers to the commentary to SN. If the note doesn’t say Spk, it means it’s BB’s note. Others may add ATI or PTS or Pali notes too. .... > BTW, to whatever extent you or anyone else here celebrate Xmas - > as a > cultural matter, or even religiously - I wish you all a very Merry > Christmas! > The holiday represents peace, and I wish that for all of us and for the > world. .... Thanks Howard and I wish the same to all - whether it’s a time of celebrations or not and whether alone or with family, whether working or on holiday. Metta, Sarah p.s Who says Hong Kong is crowded? We had the sea to ourselves...brrr;-) =========================== 28274 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon & Nina, > > I agree reality can be an object of a deluded consciousness (i.e. > any unwholesome consciousness) but I wonder what is delusion if not > conceptuality? As you point out below, conceptuality is not per se unwholesome/incorrect. But it may be true to say that the conventional notion of delusion is a kind of conceptuality. However, the mental factor of ignorance/delusion (moha) is something else again. This refers to a momentary ignorance of the true nature of the object of the present moment of consciousness, which may for example be a moment of experiencing an object through 1 of the 5 sense-doors. As you can see, this would not involve any kind of conceptuality, since there is no thinking at that particular moment about the object being experienced. The mental factor moha is 1 of the 3 unwholesome roots of consciousness, and it accompanies every moment of akusala consciousness. It has a particular characteristic and function, as can be found described in the texts. Moha is capable of being the object of subsequently occurring awareness (remember that akusala citta and cetasika can be the object of awareness -- see Satipatthana Sutta), but my guess is that would have to be quite well-developed awareness. > This isn't to say concept can't be reasonably correct, e.g. the > three > general characteristics (impermanence, suffering, anatta). However, > wisdom's (panna) special feature is its ability to know individual > characteristics. Yes, and ignorance's special feature is to *not know* individual characteristics. Jon 28275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > I am open to any ideas that aren't closed. How would one go about > testing the hypothesis? The assertions found in the teachings are are all capable of being tested against the presently occurring moment of experience, but only if appropriate to our level of understanding. However, even in the case of a hypothesis that cannot be tested by us due to lack of developed understanding, if it's a hypothesis that is found in or supported by the ancient texts, and is not inconsistent with our present every-day experience, it might be worthwhile at least countenancing its possibility. (BTW, ideas per se are neither 'open' or 'closed', surely. This aspect lies in the mind of the individual.) > Yes, agreed, a very worthwhile experiment. Could it be that anger > and attachment arise as frequently as they do and to the extent > that > they do, without seeming intention for them to arise, because there > is no awareness of what is being intended? Lack of awareness (if we both mean the same thing by that term ;-)) is indeed given as one of the conditions for the arising of akusala and the non-arising of kusala. But the big picture is more complex than that. It is also clear from the texts that one of the principal conditions for the arising of any unwholesome mental state is the latent tendency (previously accumulated tendency) for that particular mental state. > Feelings are very closely linked to the determination of what > objects are, as in, what they mean. I fully accept that initial > feelings, brought about by initial determinations, are just the > results of what one has learned. (attribution of meaning) That this > is not a deterministic process is demonstrayed by the ability to > change one's mind about what objects mean (until your hypothesis > becomes accepted theory that is :-) This relearning process will > change the initial feelings that arise on seeing similar objects. Maybe so, but do you see this as being relevant to the development of the path? What ultimately is the value in being able to change/re-condition one's feelings, as you see it? > A non-controversial peace, love and joy to you And to you too Herman. Jon 28276 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The development of Wisdom Azita (and Kom) Like Kom, I would just like to give my thoughts on this point, as I know of no texts that go into it in detail. As we know, one of the main conditions for the future development of panna is previously accumulated panna, which means that each presently arising moment of panna will be a condition for panna to arise again in the future. However, presently arising panna is not the only necessary condition for the future arising of panna. Other conditions are also required. As Kom mentions, the Buddha gave 4 factors all of which must be developed and cultivated if panna is to be developed to the level of sotapanna: association with a wise person, listening to the true dhamma, wise consideration, and practice according to the dhamma (the last one being panna, as I understand it). Although these factors are given in a graduated order, they are not factors to be accomplished and then abandoned /forgotten, one never gets beyond them. No matter what the level of panna, the need for each of these supporting factors continues: association with wise persons/good friends, hearing/studying /discussing the teachings, considering/questioning what has been heard an understood, as well as the panna that is 'practice according to the dhamma'. It seems to me that the person who has relatively more panna than saddha may easily get the notion that these other factors are not so necessary for him/her, and that he/she can develop the path without the assistance/reminders/admonition of others etc. Once the seed of this conceit has been sown, the 'craftiness' will rationalise it and find ways to bring it not effect, so that previously established habits and practices will be dropped for 1 reason or another. As a result, the development of panna is no longer sustainable. For the person in whom saddha predominates the position is the opposite. Undue emphasis may be given to attending talks, visiting the temple, observing moon days and the like, but without the critical consideration and questioning that is one of the necessary factors, so that there is an uncritical acceptance of whatever is heard. Panna cannot be sustained under these conditions either. As Kom says, wrong views are abundant, and without all 4 factors, we can never eliminate it... Jon SN 55.55 – 61 (CDB p.1836) Bhikkhus, these four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, to the growth of wisdom, to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. What four? Association with superior persons, hearing the true Dhamma, careful attention, practice in accordance with the Dhamma. These four things, when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining of wisdom, to the growth of wisdom, to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Hi Azita, ... > Yes, I think there are many interesting tidbits about why parayatti > is most > important to the development of wisdom, and why it is impossible to > realize > the 4 noble truths without the frequent awareness of this very > moment. If > we need reminder, we can always remember the 4 factors of > sotapanna: the > association with a wise person, listening to the true dhamma, wise > consideration, and practice according to the dhamma. Wrong views > are > abundant, and without all these 4 factors, we can never eliminate > it... ... > Metta, > > kom > > > > -----Original Message----- ... > > A good time for my question. I have been thinking about > Panna > > and Saddha. We are told that Panna without Saddha can lead to > > craftiness, and that too much Saddha without Panna can lead to > blind > > faith. How would craftiness and blind faith appear, what are > their > > characteristics? 28277 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor Hi Rob, Howard & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I am suitably energised by your criticism of femininity and > masculinity in the Abhidhamma. So I have done a quick internet > search and found a daily life comparison that surely shows the truth > of the Abhidhamma. > > OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WOMEN: > > 1)Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since > the last oil change. > 2)Drink a cup of coffee. > 3)15 minutes later write a check and leave with a properly > maintained vehicle. > > Money spent: > Oil Change: $25.00 > Coffee: Free to customers > Total $25.00 ..... ;-) Simple, right? Why would anyone consider the alternative??? And with the extra time and clean hands, we can reflect on these: Subtle Rupas produced by Kamma, ch5, Nina's book on Rupas http://www.abhidhamma.org/Rupa%201.htm ***** Pariyadana sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15007 ***** Vibh-A (Dispeller), 47: "In the exposition of the 'far' dyad the feminine faculty (itthindriya) and so on have been classified above (Dhs 585, Asl 321). But in this dyad subtle materiality is spoken of as 'far' because of the difficulty in penetrating its characteristic in the sense of being difficult to lay hold of......" ***** Vibh-A, 93 "Like a drop of sesame oil, [or of] unclouded cream of ghee, Thus is pronounced the counterpart of the foetus's appearance". (SA i 300) "When the material continuity is as minute as this, the types of continuity are three in number: the basis decad (vatthudasaka), the body decad (kaayadasaka) and the sex decad (bhaavadasaka)which has the femininity faculty in the case of a woman or the masculinity faculty in the case of a man." Metta, Sarah ===== 28278 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor Hi, Robert - Ahhh, *now* I understand!! Feminine faculty = pa~n~na, and Masculine Faculty = avijja!! If only that had been made clear at the outset, there would have been no confusion on my part! Many thanks for the clarification. ;-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/25/03 3:09:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >>========================== > > So, from this, what are we to say that feminine faculty and > masculine > >faculty *are*??? Some mystical, magical unseen hidden causes of > what we > >conventionally take to be feminine and masculine characteristics? > Will someone say > >they are genes? Uh, uh - genes are pa~n~natti! This business, like > >jivitindriya, is just more evidence of how weak the rupa notion is > handled in Abhidhamma. > > =============== > > Dear Howard, > I am suitably energised by your criticism of femininity and > masculinity in the Abhidhamma. So I have done a quick internet > search and found a daily life comparison that surely shows the truth > of the Abhidhamma. > > OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR WOMEN: > > 1)Pull up to Jiffy Lube when the mileage reaches 3000 miles since > the last oil change. > 2)Drink a cup of coffee. > 3)15 minutes later write a check and leave with a properly > maintained vehicle. > > Money spent: > Oil Change: $25.00 > Coffee: Free to customers > Total $25.00 > > ................................................................. > > OIL CHANGE INSTRUCTIONS FOR MEN: > > 1) Wait until Saturday, drive to auto parts store and buy a case of > oil, filter, kitty litter, hand cleaner and a scented tree, write a > check for $50.00. > > 2) Stop by 7 - 11 and buy a case of beer, write a check for $20.00, > drive home. > > 3) Open a beer and drink it. (Items 4-38 omitted to save bandwidth! ;-) > > 39) Beer. > > 40) Dump in five fresh quarts of oil. > > 41) Beer. > > 42) Lower car from jack stands. > > 43) Accidentally crush remaining case of new motor oil. > > 44) Move car back to apply more kitty litter to fresh oil spilled > during steps 23-43. > > 45) Beer. > > 46) Test drive car. > > 47) Get pulled over: arrested for driving under the influence. > > 48) Car gets impounded. > > 49) Call loving wife, make bail. > > 50) 12 hours later, get car from impound yard. > > > > -- But you know the job was done right, and, after all, quality > costs a bit extra... > > > RobertK > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28279 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/25/03 5:24:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard (and All) > > Many thanks for your very kind Christmas wishes (in another post), > and my best wishes to you and to all members. > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Nina - > Howard: > The problem I have with a rupa of feminity or masculinity is a > problem with a single rupic condition (of varying degrees/strengths) > that is responsible for sexual characteristics. This just makes no > sense to me. Sexual characteristics are determined by genes and other > biological structures, pa~n~natti all. > > Jon: > You say there cannot be a rupa that is responsible for sexual > characteristics because that is determined by genes and other > biological structures which, as we know, are pannatti. > > By the same logic there could not be a rupa that is eyesense, or > visible-object, or whatever, since any function that you might care > to mention is conventionally ascribed to some pannatti or other. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course there *could* be such a rupa, but it is nowhere made clear, so far as I can see, what is the nature of it. Hardness and sights etc are observed, so we know directly what *they* are. --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > That there may be an inclination (sankharic) to be born male or to be > born female is something that seems plausible to me (and is born out > by various Buddhist tales of rebirth), but the idea of a rupa of > femininity that arises from time to time, like pleasantness and odors > and sounds arise is simply a piece of nonsense to me. > > Jon: > I think you'd agree that this is an assessment made from the > perspective of your own deeply-held views. But it's good that you > vent your exasperation! > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Probaly the exasperation pertains mostly to not enough being said about the nature of such alleged rupas. I am willing to see if I am shown! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > The same is the case for me with a "life force" rupa and with > a "nutrition" rupa. What does it mean for an organism to die? The > life force leaves it? That is primitive nonsense for which there is > NO evidence. Nutrition is the general concept of food/physical > sustenance. This is not a rupa nor a category of rupas. This is > pa~n~natti, pure and simple. Do foods exist? Sure, in the same way as > all conventional objects exist, but not as paramattha dhammas. > > Jon: > As long as the Abhidhamma is evaluated by reference to conventional > conceptual thinking it will remain a puzzle and may even appear to be > nonsense. However, I'm sure you can see from your experience with > the suttas, where the same situation applies, that that approach is > not conducive to a proper appreciation of the teachings. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, again, Jon, what is needed is some sort of demonstration of paramattha dhammas, not pa~n~natti, that are properly called by these terms. Again. I am willing. ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > The Abhidhammic treatment of physical sense doors also lies in > this problem area. When a particular complex aggregate of conditions > arise, there occurs the ability to see. That conditioned arising of > the ability to see is the "opening (or activation) of the eye door," > with the capacity to see being the eye-door rupa. The other four > physical sense doors are similar. They are physical > capacities/abilities. But this is NOT the Abhidhammic position. > > Jon: > The list of Howard's pet peeves grows! > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Just call me Upasaka Ebenezer! Bah, humbug!! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > Nina, we are discussing what I believe to be the very weakest > elements of Abhidhamma, and it will take a LOT for me to come to > think that there is any validity to these notions as given there. > > Jon: > As Nina has said, there is no need to be overly concerned about those > aspects that don't appeal, and it might even be a mistake to dwell on > them if they invoke a reaction. But if there is any confidence in > the teachings as a whole, and I know there is plenty in your case, > one can also acknowledge that the weakness might just as likely lie > with our own way of thinking, and not with the Abhidhamma, especially > given the long and illustrious pedigree of the latter (it helps for > me, anyway ;-)). > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do, indeed, have confidence in the teachings as a whole, and that includes a great deal of Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28280 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:17am Subject: Re: Samyutta Nikaya discussions Hello Sarah, James, Howard and all, I'm happy to join in the discussions also - maybe one of you could start the ball rolling? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Howard (James & All), > 28281 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 1:12pm Subject: SN-Introduction Notes Hi All, Selected Introduction Notes from the SN, Samyutta Nikaya, Wisdom Publications, Bhikkhu Bodhi translator: "On the basis of its thematic arrangement, we might postulate that, in is most distinctive features as a collection (though certainly not in all particulars), SN was compiled to serve as the repository for the many short but pithy suttas disclosing the Buddha's radical insights into the nature of reality and his unique path to spiritual emancipation. This collection would have served the needs of two types of disciples within the monastic order. One were the doctrinal specialists, those monks and nuns who were capable of grasping the deepest dimensions of wisdom and took upon themselves the task of clarifying for others the subtle perspectives on reality opened up by the Buddha's teachings. Because SN brings together in its major samyuttas the many abstruse, profound, and delicately nuanced suttas on such weighty topics as dependent origination, the five aggregates, the six sense bases, the factors of the path, and the Four Noble Truths, it would have been perfectly suited for those disciples of intellectual bent who delighted in exploring the deep implication of the Dhamma and in explaining them to their spiritual companions. The second type of disciples for whom SN seems to have been designed were those monks and nuns who had already fulfilled the preliminary stages of meditative training and were intent on consummating their efforts with the direct realization of ultimate truth. Because the suttas in this collection are vitally relevant to meditators bent on arriving at the undeceptive "knowledge of things as they really are," they could well have formed the main part of a study syllabus compiled for the guidance of insight meditators." (SN, B. Bodhi, 32-33) "SN opens up to us the profound perspective reached through contemplative insight, where the familiar consensual world of persons and things gives way to the sphere of impersonal conditioned phenomena arising and perishing in accordance with laws of conditionality. This is the perspective on reality that, in the next stage in the evolution of Buddhist thought, will culminate in the Abhidhamma. Indeed, the connection between SN and the Abhidhamma appears to be a close one, and we might even speculate that it was the nonsubstantialist perspective so prominent in SN that directly gave rise to the type of inquiry that crystallized in the Abhidhamma philosophy. The close relationship between the two is especially evident from the second book of the Pali Abhidhamma Pitaka, the Vibhanga, which consists of eighteen treatises each devoted to the analysis of a particular doctrinal topic. Of these eighteen, the first twelve have their counterparts in SN. Since most of these treatises include a "Suttanta Analysis" (suttantabhajaniya) as well as a more technical "Abhidhamma Analysis" (abhidhammabhajaniya), it is conceivable that the Suttanta Analyses of the Vibhanga were the primordial seeds of the Abhidhamma and that it was among the specialists in SN that the idea arose of devising a more technical expository system which eventually came to be called the Abhidhamma." (SN, B. Bohdi, 33-34). James' Note: I began a study of the SN because, unlike Howard, I have never read through the entire collection (Howard has some years on me though, so I am trying to catch up! ;-)) This is a daunting task because it has 2,072 pages! From these introductory notes, it can be seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. Metta, James 28282 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:31am Subject: Coming on Too Strong Hi, Nina (and all) - It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well have "come on too strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma I have problems with. As I think about it, I realize that that using terms like 'nonsense' and 'primitive' is going over the top and could well cause offense. I apologize for this. While I think it is important to question what doesn't quite make sense to me, I think that it should be done in a far more gentle manner than that, and, particularly, my questioning should not express such a *certainty* on my part, for such certainty is a good sign of ego. As it happens, I have learned and continue to learn tremendously from the Abhidhamma and from the teaching provided by you and others here. The basic Abhidhammic framework of the flow of mindstates, each state consisting of a citta, cetasikas, and arammana (rupa or whatever), and the notion of 'paramattha dhammas' so well presented and discussed on DSG, including the critical distinction between paramattha dhammas and pa~n~natti, have been and continue to be of inestimable value to me. I am very grateful for all I gain from DSG, and my profiting from being on DSG began to grow even more once you joined the list, Nina. I know that you and many others here have not only the highest respect for the Abhidhamma, but even a devout love for it, and I think it careless of me to not to have tread more carefully. All the "Abhidhammikas" here are brilliant folks, powerfully devoted to the Dhamma, and warmly compassionate at the same time, and having friends in the Dhamma such as these is truly a blessing. With much metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28283 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi, James - I'm with you!! I'm eager to proceed with the study and the discussions. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/25/03 4:13:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi All, > > Selected Introduction Notes from the SN, Samyutta Nikaya, Wisdom > Publications, Bhikkhu Bodhi translator: > > "On the basis of its thematic arrangement, we might postulate that, > in is most distinctive features as a collection (though certainly not > in all particulars), SN was compiled to ... > > James' Note: I began a study of the SN because, unlike Howard, I have > never read through the entire collection (Howard has some years on me > though, so I am trying to catch up! ;-)) This is a daunting task > because it has 2,072 pages! From these introductory notes, it can be > seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like > myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I > would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, > and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you > see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. > > Metta, James > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28284 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: SN-Introduction Notes Hi James In one of your earlier email, if my memory did not fail me, you indicate that it should not include the commentary. However, I like to appeal for myself, if possible there should be commentary notes for pple like me to have more detail knowledge on a particular suttta, esp when the commentary in the SN is in Pali which I believe not yet translated in English. One of my New Year wishes is that I hope Sarah will translate the commentary (not in whole but relevant ones) when she discuss these suttas with you. For you kind considerations best regards Ken O 28285 From: Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] concept & characteristic Hi Jon, A few more ideas on moha: I called it delusion but perhaps we could classify its experience as having a question or having a wrong view. I would include bewilderment in having a question. I've been trying to figure out the connection between the mental formations of greed hatred and delusion and the internal physical sensations (tangible data) that seemingly always accompany them. How about the phenomenon of consciousness produced rupa? I'm looking at the chart on p. 249 in CMA. It looks like this might work, but I'm not sure. When I'm angry, I "feel" angry. When I'm bewildered, I "feel" bewildered. I am understanding this "feeling" as the body consciousness of tangible data. Can we say root consciousness (greed, hatred, delusion) produces it? Can we say this feeling is informed, so to speak, by the very subtle cetasikas of greed hatred and delusion and has both a general nature that I can recognize as g, h, or d and also a unique nature that is slightly different every time. What I'm getting at is the very common experience of bewilderment and recognizing it as such. You don't need to have special wisdom to do this. Other forms of moha are trickier. Larry ps: In english "ignorance" can also mean "ignoring" or simply "not knowing". How would you classify these two? 28286 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:11pm Subject: Re: SN-Introduction Notes Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi James > > In one of your earlier email, if my memory did not fail me, you > indicate that it should not include the commentary. Of course I would not want to spoil one of your New Year's Wishes! (Wow…and most others just wish to lose weight! ;-)) The SN contains extensive commentary, most from Buddhaghosa, and I would of course not limit Sarah to quoting these as I plan to quote many of these notes myself. Many of them give valuable background information which brings some particular suttas to life. Sarah made that one promise to me you are recalling in jest. I know the difference between a joke and being serious. Her joke and my joke in response have no bearing on this discussion. It is without rules and Sarah and anyone can post what they will. I'm sorry if our little joking banter caused you any undue stress or concern. I sincerely hope that you will join in any future discussions in this thread because I really enjoy your unique and flexible perspectives! Metta, James Ps. Please wait a while for the whole thing to begin. This is a bad time of year to start such an endeavor (sorry) and I think that many members are unnecessarily concerned. Relax and take it one day at a time. The whole thing will unfold like a beautiful lotus; I am sure. 28287 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:40pm Subject: Re: Coming on Too Strong Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and all) - > > It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well have "come on too > strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. However, sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains shaked! And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, and I am not guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship for? ;-)) Metta, James 28288 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi James, Christine, Howard, KenO & All, > James' Note: I began a study of the SN because, unlike Howard, I have > never read through the entire collection (Howard has some years on me > though, so I am trying to catch up! ;-)) This is a daunting task > because it has 2,072 pages! From these introductory notes, it can be > seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like > myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I > would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, > and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you > see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. .... This is a very nice message and good start and thank you for the extracts from the intro. I’ve said to James that I’m very content to follow his lead and I know he’s giving it plenty of consideration. It won’t be boring. As he says, we can relax and threads can and will take on a life of their own as usual and never need die;-). Christine, so glad you’re happy to contribute - this will be a great help. I hope other Cooranites are taking note as well;-). It’s a good idea of James’s to start with the intro. So do you have any comments on the intro extracts he selected or have any other passages in the intro you’d like to bring to our attention? With all James’s psychic abilities --;-)--, he’ll know just when to start posting from the first chapter, SN1, SN2 and so on and I think we can follow this lead to then comment on his suttas and ‘take’ on them or introduce others from the same chapter we wish to share. Of course some will say it’s too fast and others that it’s too slow, as Larry is used to;-) James is an imaginative and skilful teacher, so it’ll work out fine, I know. Pls go ahead and post the link to the article you mentioned off-list - it may be interesting for others too. We’ll all find our own favourite sections in due course and of course they probably won’t be the same;-) KenO, I’m very interested to read the sections I’m not at all familiar with and look at the commentary notes which BB supplies. I won’t be translating anything (I’m not a Pali expert or reader - just an occasional term at best), but will certainly be quoting -- and encouraging others to do so --from the comy notes as often as I can get away with;-) If she’s not too busy, Nina or others with Pali expertise may be able to supplement these with any other key points for consideration. It’ll be great to have your contributions in any form or kind. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon pointed out that it might be less confusing if we use the same way of reference that BB uses in his notes. (Jon, hope this means you'll be contributing too;-)) So, SN 1:21 would be used rather than SN1.21(1) [to refer to ‘A Sword’ at SN, Sagathavagga, Devatasamyutta, 111 A Sword, 21(1) A Sword, p.100] ATI would use 1.21, so 1:21 is easy for ATI users and links. Anyway, there’re bound to be some variations as others join in and we don’t need to be too rigid or correct as I see it. To repeat: >The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. ==================================== 28289 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Coming on Too Strong Hi James & Howard, --- buddhatrue wrote: > This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. .... I agree. I learn a lot from your example, Howard, and look forward to learning plenty more. I also greatly appreciated the reminders in Jon’s post to Azita and the need for continual wise friendship, hearing of reminders, consideration and development of panna. It’s never enough. ..... >However, > sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains > shaked! .... Oh no! Rattle, rattle.... .... >And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains > also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts > about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, .... He’s got a point there, Howard;-) .... >and I am not > guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all > slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship > for? ;-)) .... Well, maybe not to end up with a stinging face;-( I appreciate the point about questioning and reminders and pointing out the treasure. The skill, of course, is to find the ways (often requiring more attention and consideration) to do so without causing unnecessary dismay which we may have no inkling of. Plenty for me to learn too, and I learn a lot from writing to you, James and other friends here;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 28290 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Any thoughts : To Alan Dear Alan, other Veda-leaning members and All Alan wrote: "Buddhism was founded by Gautama Sakya Muni, the rebel child of Hinduism. It sprang up directly from Hinduism. Buddha never thought of founding a new religion. He made no new discovery. He was proclaiming only the ancient and pure form of religion which had prevailed among the Hindus." Alan, you can't be serious! I have problem understanding what you wrote above. By the way, where did you get that information? Did your Hindu gurus teach you? Or did you make them up yourself? In particular, I was puzzled by your claim that the Buddha made no new discovery. What do you mean by that claim? The Buddha has taught the following key principles. 1. The Process of Dependent Origination and Its Reverse Process (Paticcasammuppaado with both Anulomakathaa and Pa.tilomakathaa). 2. The Four Noble Truths as described in the First Discourse (Dhammacakkapavattana Suttam). 3. Three Characteristics of Nature, namely, Impermanence, Misery and Selflessness (Anattaa / Anaatman). Alan, do you mean that the above principle teachings of Gotama the Buddha can be found in Veda and Upanishads? If so, I would be extremely interested to know the relevant references in those works so that I can check them for myself. By the way, I don't mind reading them in Sanskrit. In fact, I would prefer to consult the Sanskrit originals of those works. Just give me the relevant references, please. If you or your Hindu gurus could not locate the above principle teachings of Gotama the Buddha in Veda and Upanishads, are you willing to admit your mistake regarding your claim? What was your motivation for having made the claim that the Buddha made no new discovery. Alan, as you declared yourself as a Hindu, you are in a better position to know the meaning of self or Self in line with Veda and Upanishadic teachings. If so, what are the meanings of self / Self in Vedas and Upanishads? I hope that I had not burdened you with impossible questions. By the way, I do not debate with you. I merely exchange facts and information with you. Thanking you in advance. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Bell" wrote: Dear Suan, Many thanks for the reply. Some further comments. higlighted with **** >The whole purpose of the Buddha's teachings is to help us break >ourselves free from Samsaaro. **** this is the same as the fundamental vedic beliefs which arose from the the Upanishads. >The Buddha discovered how to end his own Samsaaro, and taught others >to do likewise. That is to say, he can no longer be reborn. peace and light, Alan 28291 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hello to all in the Samyutta study corner, I had mentioned off-list that Leigh Brassington had put forward his personal impressions in single line notes of the suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya - not to suggest we should follow his lead, but because of my usual need to follow some 'method'. :-) (Maybe there IS something to this 'accumulations' business. :-)) Here is the link to the comments by Leigh Brassington - http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6774/studysn.htm When I read the sections of the intro posted by James, I remember smiling and thinking we might turn out to be a little like the ancient Bhikkhus who comfortably accepted the differences of emphasis they were attracted to in the Teachings. At the time, a (seven year old?) arahat encouraged them to find support with those who had similar inclinations, and arranged their lodgings to group 'same with same'. [not sure which sutta, or about which arahat.] metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: It's a good idea of > James's to start with the intro. So do you have any comments on the intro > extracts he selected or have any other passages in the intro you'd like to > bring to our attention? With all James's psychic abilities --;-)--, he'll > know just when to start posting from the first chapter, SN1, SN2 and so on > and I think we can follow this lead to then comment on his suttas and > `take' on them or introduce others from the same chapter we wish to share. > Of course some will say it's too fast and others that it's too slow, as > Larry is used to;-) James is an imaginative and skilful teacher, so it'll > work out fine, I know. Pls go ahead and post the link to the article you > mentioned off-list - it may be interesting for others too. We'll all find > our own favourite sections in due course and of course they probably won't > be the same;-) > 28292 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Latent tendecies Hi All I need to clarify latent tendecies. Suan in his message 25480 Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala cittaani) that arise in the present. When I read the survey of Paramattha Dhamma A. Sujin said that "When the votthabbana-citta has fallen away, the sixth vithi-citta, the kusala-citta, the akusala-citta, or the mahakiriya-citta of the lokiya type, would arise to perform javana-kicca in a series of seven citta, thereby accumulating latent tendencies in continuation. As stated in the passage "included in the word "citta" are kusala-citta, akusala-citta and mahakiriya-citta of the lokiya type. Called "citta" because it accumulates latent tendencies in continuation, with the efficiency of the javana-vithi." Could someone pse clarify whether kusala citta has latent tendency. kind rgds Ken O 28293 From: Eddie Lou Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 10 ) Thanks, Christine. Metta, Eddie Lou --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Eddie, > > When searching for a particular number message, > Christine 28294 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Howard Christmas just wouldn't be complete without a post on this long-standing thread of ours, now would it! --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is observable, for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is not observable, if it existed, would have that existence be unverifiable. To me, I consider something nonexistent if it is not observable. [I didn't say "not observed"; I said "not observable"] Jon: It seems to me that your position in fact is that the existence/non-existence of rupas depends on their being observed/not observed (i.e., not on their being observable/not observable). If I have misunderstood, perhaps you could give an example of a rupa that is 'existent' because of being observable, while not being actually observed. Howard: There is no limit to "possible" unexperiencable things. One of these is "the self". It is not provable that there *is* no world self, no Brahman. But it is not observable, and I do not accept its existence. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is for the existence of something, not its nonexistence. Jon: But we are not talking about "possible" unexperiencable things here, we are talking about certain instances of rupas of a kind that are experienced continuously. These rupas are not 'in principle unobservable' in the sense that "the self" you talk about here is unobservable. Howard: What is in principle unobservable can never be proved to exist. I do not accept such alleged existents. You, however, are certainly free to do so. Jon: By 'unobservable' here do you mean un observable by you, Howard, or unobservable by every being including a Buddha? If you mean unobservable by you, Howard, this would have to include anything that is not the (single) present object of your consciousness. In that case, would it not follow from your line of thinking that only a single rupa ever arises in this world at a given time, that being the rupa that is currently the object of your (Howard's) experience? If you mean unobservable by the Buddha, then I think we need to keep in mind that the scope of a Buddha's knowledge (buddha-visaya) is one of the acinteyya/unfathomables. It would in my view be a mistake to assume that this matter is 'in principle unknowable' by a Buddha. Jon PS I notice in post to Ken O you say that one of the necessary conditions for the arising of rupas is sentience (consciousness?). This is a new one to me. Would you mind sharing the source of this information (or is it a purely personal view)? Thanks. 28295 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not Hi Sukin and Sarah, Thank you for prompting me to contribute to the discussions but I'm still finding it hard to string a few words together. I'm suffering a general sluggishness and dejection that could be due to any of several reasons. For example, I am fat and weak from festive- season gluttony and lack of exercise (terrible surf lately). I know, from experience, that the longer I remain off- list the harder it is to get back on. So I will, at least, apologise for muffing the baton change. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > I am happy that you appreciate my post and the starting of this > thread. :-) > Tomorrow I will be a bit busy and the day after I go for a short > vacation. So can I pass on the baton to you. ;-) > > Happy holidays to everyone. > > Metta, > Sukin. > > 28296 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:48am Subject: Pointless Dear Group, The 93 degree heat and 84% humidity has made all the local blow flies think about leaving the sensual attractions of the cow pats, and finding a nice little female, settling down for a minute or two and raising a couple of hundred kids each. All generations then congregate on my wide cool back verandah, just waiting for a member of the 'coalition of the willing', Rusty the Dog, to cause the door to be opened. Then they all zoom in and start battering at the insides of the windows (to get out where they just were) while buzzing and cursing at the top of their voices. I open windows and doors and try to 'usher' them out. They totally ignore me and get caught in the spiders web high up in the corner. Extension ladder is over at my brothers' house, so they are doomed. I think about how stupid they are, why rush in through an opening and not have the capacity to even retrace ones steps (err, flaps)? Poor flies. Born without a say in the form they take. Anyone see anye "meaning" in the life of a fly? what does it strive for? what choice or control does it have? what plans does it, or could it, make? It is just a fly. It does what flies do. It is born, it grows older. It mates and leaves descendents behind. It dies, or often, it is killed. Poor thing, I thought. How pointless is the life of a fly. Not like humans.... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 28297 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anicca (Impermanence) - and other questions Hi Ken O, Thx for the keen Qs - I'm not sure if they were all answered, so I'll add a little more: --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > That some things might last for a while? - When I see this I laugh > bc I am also like that, I do have the tendency to hope some things to > last for a while, just a litter longer even though I know all is > going away. .... We hope and think they last while there is no precise understanding of realities, I think. So ignorance leads to attachment and so on. ..... > I got three basic qn. In the Lobha cittas there are those > disconnected with wrong view, since they are not sobhana cittas, > definitely it will not mean right view. What do it mean? .... Attachment, but without any wrong view at the moment of attaching. Like now, liking what we see, hear or smell, for example, but without any idea of it being a thing or person or lasting etc. The subtle and not so subtle wrong views are always popping in at the time or afterwards, however;-( .... > Secondly is the question of the promptness of ignorance - Under the > Comprehensive of Abdhidhamma translated by B.Bodhi, in the book, > Visud maintain that the distinction in terms of prompting is omitted > because neither alternative is applicable. They state since these > two cittas lack natural acutness, they cannot be described as > unprompted; and since there is no occassion when one deliberatly > tries to arouse them, they cannot be described as prompted. .... Just looking at BB’s note now, I see this info comes from the Vibhavini-Tika and the Maha-Tika to the Visuddhimagga. It’s on good authority. Also, if it were otherwise, it would be said, like for other mental states, I think. In Vibhava-A (Dispeller 627) and Vism XV11, 52, ignorance is referred to as ‘prompted and unprompted’, but this is in the context of D.O. with ignorance as a root. .... >Ledi > Sayadaw, however rejects this position, hold these cittas to be > exclusively unprompted. He contends: "Since these two cittas occur > in beings naturally, by their own intrinsic nature; they need not be > aroused by any inducement or expedient means. They always occur > without trouble or difficulty. Therefore they are exclusively > unprompted and this should be seen as the reason the distinction by > way of prompting is not mentioned here" .... I can’t say, but as a general principal, I’d always follow the ancient commentaries and Tikas accepted and handed down from the times of great authority. .... > Thirdly, the Comprehensive Manual of Abidhidhamma states that wrong > view and conceit are contrary to each other, hence they cannot > co-exist in the same citta. The explanation is not adequate, could > you provide a better one. .... Did you see the other posts I indicated? Also see the chapters on these in ‘Cetasikas’. As RobK indicated, differenct characteristics and objects. Wrong view being concerned with one’s understanding or way of seeing things - eg seeming to last, a thing etc. Conceit is concerned with one’s importance, comparing, caring how one is seen etc. I’m so impressed at all your useful reading - Survey, Rupas, Abh. Sangaha and comy etc Thanks for the encouragement. Metta, Sarah ======= 28298 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: moha Hi Dan & RobK, Good to see your discussion: --- rjkjp1 wrote: R:> > > (p71,vol1, enlightenment chapter) > > > "it is ignorance since it causes beings > > > to dart among becomings and so on within samsara.., it > > > is ignorance since it darts among those things which > > > do not actually exist [i.e.men, women] and > > > since it does not dart among those things that do > > > exist [i.e.it cannot understand the khandas, > > > paramattha dhammas]." > > D:> > I wonder what "darts among" means... R:> Dear Dan, yes from the Udanaatthakatha translated by Masefield. > Good question about 'darts' , I haven't looked at the pali, so > better not guess:) .... dart = javaapeti.* cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): “.....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the aggregates, the meaning of extent in the bases, the meaning of void in the elements, the meaning of reality in the truths, the meaning of predominance in the faculties, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It makes beings hurry on in all the kinds of generation, destiny, existence, stations of consciousness, abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It hurries on *(javati)* in ‘woman’, ‘man’, etc that are non-existent (avijjamaana) in the highest sense, it does not hurry on in the existent aggregates, etc, thus it is ‘ignorance’. Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the dependent origination and dependently-originated states which are the [physical] basis and the object of eye-consciousness and so on.” ***** *???? javaapeti = javati + apeti ?????* Javati Vedic ju (p. 280) javate intr. to hurry, junati trs. to incite, urge: to run, hurry, hasten S I.33; J IV.213; Davs V.24; DhsA 265, pp. juta. Apeti (p. 55) [apa + i, cp. Gr. a)/peimi, Lat. abeo, Goth. af--iddja] to go away, to disappear D I.180 (upeti pi apeti pi); J I.292; Sn 1143 (= nc apagacchanti na vijahanti Nd2 66). -- pp. apeta (q. v.). Metta, Sarah ===== 28299 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:36am Subject: Re: Bangkok trip --- Thanks Chris. I booked today but still have to find babysitters and get a hanko (seal) from the head of department to be excused from a big meeting.\ will try. rob In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Robert, > > This is an excerpt from a letter from Betty, and, as far as I > understand, these arrangements still stand. > "Than Achaan has set aside the following dates for discussions at the > Foundation: Thursday-Saturday, January 29-31, from 2-4pm each day, > 28300 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58 Feminine/masculine and humor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Ahhh, *now* I understand!! Feminine faculty = pa~n~na, and Masculine > Faculty = avijja!! If only that had been made clear at the outset, there would > have been no confusion on my part! Many thanks for the clarification. ;-) _____ Dear Howard, 'But you know the job was done right, and, after all, quality costs a bit extra...' Rob 28301 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi, all - The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the Flood, is very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite important. The ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the beginning, is the following: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions on the "no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis-a-vis the Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it deals, I think, with a dead-center-important practice issue. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28302 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexperienced rupas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/26/03 2:59:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > Christmas just wouldn't be complete without a post on this > long-standing thread of ours, now would it! ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Merry Xmas to you too, Jon! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > It is reasonable to attribute existence to what is observable, > for its existence is verifiable by observation. What is not > observable, if it existed, would have that existence be unverifiable. > To me, I consider something nonexistent if it is not observable. [I > didn't say "not observed"; I said "not observable"] > > Jon: > It seems to me that your position in fact is that the > existence/non-existence of rupas depends on their being observed/not > observed (i.e., not on their being observable/not observable). > > If I have misunderstood, perhaps you could give an example of a rupa > that is 'existent' because of being observable, while not being > actually observed. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The issue is one of verification, Jon. Only what is observable (or what is inferable by perfectly valid reasoning from what is observable - I certainly cede that) is verifible. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: There is no limit to "possible" unexperiencable things. > One of these is "the self". It is not provable that there *is* no > world self, no Brahman. But it is not observable, and I do not accept > its existence. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is for > the existence of something, not its nonexistence. > > Jon: > But we are not talking about "possible" unexperiencable things here, > we are talking about certain instances of rupas of a kind that are > experienced continuously. These rupas are not 'in principle > unobservable' in the sense that "the self" you talk about here is > unobservable. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, here you beg the entire question! I agree that what are " experienced continuously" exist. They are the content of experience. No further verification is needed. Let me clarify: You seem to assume an external auditory or visual etc entity, let's call it an E-rupa (for external rupa), and you assume an internal act of consciousness that somehow makes "contact" with this E-rupa, and the result is a mindstate involving that consciousness apprehending an arammana which we might call an I-rupa (internal rupa). I say that it is the I-rupa that is experienced, with the mindstate being the act of experience. The I-rupa's fleeting existence is directly verified by its being directly observed. The alleged E-rupa is merely hypothesized. It is a hypothesized shadow lurking beneath actual experience. Moreover, if it exists, it is *not* the object of the consciousness, and it cannot be. It is the E-rupa that is unobservable - unobservable in principle, because it is not the arammana. ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: What is in principle unobservable can never be proved to > exist. I do not accept such alleged existents. You, however, are > certainly free to do so. > > Jon: > By 'unobservable' here do you mean un observable by you, Howard, or > unobservable by every being including a Buddha? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: As I've said several times before, by unobservable, I mean not able to be observed by any being, ever, under any circumstance. ------------------------------------------------- > > If you mean unobservable by you, Howard, this would have to include > anything that is not the (single) present object of your > consciousness. In that case, would it not follow from your line of > thinking that only a single rupa ever arises in this world at a given > time, that being the rupa that is currently the object of your > (Howard's) experience? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: My previous answer makes this question moot. ------------------------------------------------ > > If you mean unobservable by the Buddha, then I think we need to keep > in mind that the scope of a Buddha's knowledge (buddha-visaya) is one > of the acinteyya/unfathomables. It would in my view be a mistake to > assume that this matter is 'in principle unknowable' by a Buddha. > > Jon > > PS I notice in post to Ken O you say that one of the necessary > conditions for the arising of rupas is sentience (consciousness?). > This is a new one to me. Would you mind sharing the source of this > information (or is it a purely personal view)? Thanks. > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28303 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: anapanasati 8 d anapanasati 8 d We read about the fourth jhana, and in this jhana no breathing occurs (Vis. VIII, 209). This shows again how subtle this meditation subject is, it becomes hardly perceptible when one is more advanced, and then not at all perceptible. If we would try now to notice breathing, how could we plan to notice it with kusala citta? This shows that the very beginning is already most difficult. One may believe that breath is a concept, but now I will just repeat a Co. passage to the first tetrad: The other three tetrads refer respectively to the contemplation of feelings in feelings, citta in citta, dhammas in dhammas. As we have read, the first three tetrads deal with calm and insight and the fourth deals with insight alone. ***** Nina. 28304 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Coming on Too Strong, shaking chains Hi James, You made me laugh, but you are right about shaking the chains, come on then!!! I try not to cry :-)) but I cannot promise, who knows what happens? Slapping in the face is too painful for me, but I know from where you are coming. It is a Zen idea. Nina. op 26-12-2003 03:40 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. However, > sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains > shaked! And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains > also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts > about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, and I am not > guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all > slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship > for? ;-)) 28305 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 8 b, a file. Hi Jon, I would not know how to make that single file. How should I proceed? Nina. op 25-12-2003 10:03 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I'm finding very useful the re-run through this series. Lots of > interesting detail and good references. Is there any chance of a > consolidated (i.e. single file) version at the end? 28306 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) Hi Sarah, yes, easy. I need the Pali but may need Jim's help when he is back from Orilla. Those signs are so difficult to get straight. I also try to get B.B. in the monk's univerity bookshop, Mahamakut, Bgk. I have the Co in Thai. Nina. op 25-12-2003 13:39 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > RobK or Nina, would this -SN1,38(8)- be clear enough for someone using the > PTS transl? 28307 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Coming on Too Strong Dear Howard, I really appreciate your sincerity and your openmindedness to study Abhidhamma. Well, Lodewijk also feels frustrated about Abhidhamma and he gives vent to this. But now, instead of talking about events and persons, let us consider the matter dhamma-wise. It is your kusala citta to apologize, and the Buddha said that we should forgive each other. Sarah once said that if she had to confess to her coreligionists all her faults it would be a long list. I should also bow my head, and ask forgiveness, I have a long list! What you wrote, coming on too strongly, has happened, there were conditions. Different reactions from those who read it also occurred, it also has happened. It is no more. The way things happen is good, because we can keep on learning from such events. What are the cittas like when we are upset? A lot to learn again. Clinging to self and conceit, these are all subjects of which understanding can be developed. I like to quote Suan again: We should remember: a long term project, ups and downs. The Buddha gave us the tools in our hands to develop understanding and we should be grateful to the Buddha in the first place. And that is, as we often discussed, a meditation for every occasion. What would we be without his teachings. On your way you will meet again many incomprehensible points but it is so useful to discuss them among friends. I like to be reminded by my friends in the Dhamma to consider and reconsider myself deep points of the dhamma, there are so many points I have not considered enough. Questions are very helpful to me, I benefit from them. Of course, you are also among my good friends in the Dhamma. May we all pay attention to our long time project with gratefulness to the Buddha, with warmest regards, Nina. op 25-12-2003 22:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well have "come on too > strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma I have problems with. 28308 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:40am Subject: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Someone who is in the practice of Mahasatipatthana ( special mindfulness ) has to have full understanding of what is happening at each moment. Whatever he is doing, he has to be aware of what is happening. This clear understanding of Dhamma is called Sati Sampajanna ( clear understanding ). While he is practising sitting in meditation, he is being aware of what exactly he is doing and what is arising at each moment. When he considers that he wants to stop sitting and wants standing, he knows that he wants them. Then his mindfulness on breath is shifted to his body position. He knows that he wants to unfold his legs. That means he knows arising of Cittas that have a wish to change his body position. This Citta or consciousness causes Cittaja ( caused by Citta ) Rupa. Then he unfolds and notes that he unfolds his legs. He knows he wants to put his soles of feet to put on the floor. Then he put them on the floor and he knows that he put them on the floor. He knows that he wants to sit on his feet and then he sits on his soles of feet. He knows that he wants to straighten his legs and then he straighten them and he notes that he stands there. He knows he wants to put his hands by his body and then he puts them by his sides. He knows that his eyes are closed. Now he wants to open his eyes. He knows that he wants to open his eyes. Then he opens his eyes. He notices that he sees the floor. He knows that he knows his seeing of the floor. He is aware of his wish to walk forward. Then he walks forward. In his walking, he is fully conscious to all his actions. He knows that he is moving forward. He knows that he wants to lift his right foot, then he lifts it and he knows that he is lifting his right foot. He knows that he wants to swing his right leg forward then he swings his right leg forward. He knows he is going to put his right heel on the floor then he knows that he put his right heel on the floor. Then he knows he wants to shift his axis of body weight to his right leg by standing on right leg. Then he stands on his right leg and he notices that his left foot is lifting up. He knows that he wants to swing his left leg forward and then he swings his left leg forward. He recognizes that his left heel is going to put on the floor and then he put his left heel on the floor. Then he stands on his left leg. He notices that his right foot is going to be lifted up. He is fully conscious to all his movements. He knows all the process of his walking. When he stands on one leg, his mind sometimes moves to his sight that he notes that he sees the floor and he notes that he knows what his mind is doing even during his walking. He knows while he is moving forward. He also knows while he is moving back. In between walking, there are a lot of pauses. At the time of pause, he notices that he is looking straight ahead and he is aware of his looking straight ahead. When he is not looking straight ahead and looking elsewhere, he knows that he is looking somewhere else instead of looking forward straight ahead. He has been practising walking meditation for an hour and at the end of his walking meditation section, he notices that he wants to drink water. Then he walks to where there is water. He is fully conscious while he is moving to where there is water. A bottle of water and a glass are on the table in the room. Now he stands by the table. He knows that he wants to bend his right arm. Then he bends his arm and then his right hand is outstretched to reach the water bottle. He knows that he stretches his hand. He wants to unscrew the lid and he does it and he knows that he is doing. He wants to grasp the bottle, he grasps and then he pours water into the glass consciously. Water is flowing. He hears the sound of dropping of water into the glass. He wants to stop pouring and then he stops pouring. Put down the bottle. Take the water-ful glass. He is putting his mindfulness on his movement that he is carring the glass. Want to take to the mouth, does that, want to hold mouthful of water, holds it, wants to swallows it, swallows it and he does these till the glass is empty. He wants to put down the glass on the table. He does that consciously. He wants to change his dress. He goes to the wardrobe and takes a casual pair of dressing with conscious mind. Hw knows all the process of changing his dressing through out. He wants to undress, he then undresses. He wants to put on a new shirt, then he put it on. He changes his old pair of troussers with a new one. He knows all the process of arising of his wishing mind, all his actions and he is fully aware of his changing of dressing. Then he goes to the kitchen for his breakfast. He practises walking meditation while moving to the kitchen. He stands by the table and then he sits on the chair. He knows that he wish to eat. He knows that his hand is going to stretch and take the fork and the knife. During the process of his eating, he recognizes all mind that arise one after another and notes that all his movement that are all dictated by mind. When he put the food into his mouth, he notes that it is put inot. When he chews, he notes that he chews. When he is going to swallow he notices that he wants to swallow what he has chewed. Then he swallows and he knows that he swallows. He finishes his breakfast with a glass of water to clean up his throat. Again, he is fully aware of all his mind and bodily movements through out his drinking process. When he goes to the toilet, he knows that he want to pass motion or he want to defecate. He notes all the way down to the toilet that he is moving toward the toilet. He notes that he removes his troussers and pants and then he sits on the comode. He knows his wish to release. Then he releases. When he hears sound, he notes all he hears as he hears. When he passes water or urinates, he notes that he is passing water or urinates. When he cleans he knows that he is cleaning. When he draws water he knows that he draws. He stands up after finishing everything toileting. He walks out and he notes that he walks out. He is fully aware of all his bodily actions and positions. When he stands he knows that he is standing. When he walks he knows that he is walking. And when he sits he is fully aware of that he is sitting. When he lies down on the bed he knows that he is lying down. In between arising of all these consciousness, he also notes that he is touching with so and so such as to the floor, to the sofa, to the carpet, to the chair, to the table and so on. When he wakes up in the morning, he knows that he wakes up and he is being aware of his surroundings and notices any object that arise at that time. He knows that he is awake. In the day time, he is fully aware of all his actions. He knows when he speaks that he is speaking. When he hearing someone's speech, he notices that he hears that and he also knows that he is thinking for his response to that speech. When he speak, he knows that he is speaking. And when he is silent again, he notes that he is being silent. When he goes to bed, he notes that he is going to bed. When he lies on the bed, he knows that he is lying on the bed. He is noting all his movements whenever they arise and all his mind movements whenever they arise. When he is tired of the day and he is just going into sleep, he knows that he is exhausted and tired and he relaxes all his body and mind and then he passes into his sleep. When he wakes up, he knows that he wakes up. When he is thinking he knows that he is thinking for the day what to do as a plan and he knows that he is planning that. In this way, the meditator has to be fully aware of what he is experiencing all the time. This Sati Sampajanna ( mindfulness with clear understanding ) has to be developed at each moment and everyday till he dies. All these are just method and it is not a map. If someone can practise in this way for 7 years, he will enlighten ( becomes an Arahat )or at least he will becomes an Anagam or non-returner. Non-returner means he will not return to Kama Bhumi that is human world, hell beings world, animals world, ghosts world, demons world, Deva worlds. Let alone 7 years, 6 years practice will help him to attain Arahatta Magga or at least Anagami Magga. Let alone 6 years, 5 years, 4 years, 3 years, 2 years or even 1 year practice will leads him to attain Nana ( wisdom ). Let alone 1 year, 7 months practice will lead him to attainment of wisdom. Let alone 7 months, 6 months will suffice to attain wisdom. Let alone 6 months, 5 months, 4 months, 3 months, 2 months, 1 month or even 2 weeks will suffice for him to attain wisdom if he follows this method and he has fulfiled all the perfections to get through the Samsara. This is a part of the method Mahasatipatthana ( special mindfulness practice ), this alone is sufficient for the genuine practice. But for those who are lack of a good knowledge in Dhamma will need to learn much much more. And they may even need a full map with complete interpretation of all land marks and the method of how to approach to the destination. May you all get through the Samsara in your shortest way. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Journey To Nibbana JourneyToNibbana@g... htootintnaing@y... 28309 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the Flood, is > very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite important. The > ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the beginning, > is the following: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html > BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions on the > "no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis- a-vis the > Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it deals, I think, > with a dead-center-important practice issue. Yea, this is a very good sutta. It is deceptively simple and deep in meaning. I think the Buddha is saying that not by standing still and not by struggling he crossed the flood (flood of ignorance, samsara, craving, etc.). "Note 3: The Buddha's brief reply points to the middle way (majjhima patipada) in its most comprehensive range, both practical and philosophical. To make the implication clear Spk enumerates seven dyads: (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining" by way of volitional formations, one gets swept away; (ii) by way of craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks, by way of views, one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of all unwholesome volitional formations one sinks, by way of all mundane wholesome volitional formations one gets swept away." I think this does relate greatly to the principal of Wu Wei, selfless action. However, wu wei has a different emphasis in Taoism in that it can be practiced in any activity, even cutting up a dead cow (an example used by Chaung Tzu and how the knife of the wu wei butcher remained sharp). Wu Wei to the Buddha would still have to be performed under certain strict standards, precepts, etc. The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 28310 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:50am Subject: SN-Devatasamyutta Hi All, At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devata recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peaceful, leading the holy life, Eating but a single meal a day: Why is their complexion so serene?* [The Blessed One:] "They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." SN I, 10 *Note 18: Spk: This verse was spoken by an earth-bound deva who dwelt in that forest. Each day he would see the bhikkhus who inhabited the forest sitting in meditation after their meal. As they sat, their minds would become unified and serene, and the serenity of their minds would become manifest in their complexion (vanna). Puzzled that they could have such serene faces while living under these austere conditions, the deva came to the Buddha to inquire into the case. The facial complexion (mukhavanna) or complexion of the skin (chavivanna) is understood to indicate success in meditation. James' Note: The first chapter of the Samyutta Nikaya is the Devatasamyutta "Connected Discources with Devatas. This is an interesting chapter because the discourses reveal the personalities and interests of the devas in contrast to the deep wisdom and vision of the Buddha. The devas, being heavenly beings, have joy and delight as a mainstay and so they approach the Buddha predominately as curiosity seekers. Because they exist in a heavenly sphere, the Buddha greatly emphases The Middle Path when discussing the Dhamma with them to illustrate that their existence is a type of extreme and that delight in heaven, or torture in hell, are not conducive to following the middle path to Nibbana. Because they are from a heavenly realm, predominately their mode of speech is in verse and so the Buddha replies in verse as well. The above sutta reveals what is noticeable to this particular deva, how the Buddha's monks look. Since devas have luminous bodies which give off light, they would be interested in why certain humans can have a similar type of appearance at times. The Buddha's answer draws the deva away from just thinking about their appearance and thinking about the internal wisdom that causes it. Comments? Perhaps someone else would like to post a sutta from the Devatasamyutta which also reveals the personality/interest of the devas in contrast to the deep wisdom of the Buddha? Metta, James 28311 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:16am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hello all, 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? And does it matter? After all, only humans ordain, and devas in general have their own power and respect. 2. Interesting that the Buddha says (in Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans.) "By not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood." I think this might have raised a question in the minds of the listeners as it seems opposed to everyday rural behaviour - e.g. when the small creek at the back of my property is in flood and I need to cross it. I hold onto a tree trunk, slide my legs through the current until I've gone far enough but can still stand upright, make sure of my footing, take a step and grab for another support (reed or overhanging branch), before repeating the process. It is literally by straining and halting and finding a footing that I cross the flood. It is the safest way when there is a strong current from the run-off of heavy rain. But the Buddha is making a point of saying this common-sense way is not the way he chose - "When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood" You can't control what happens in a flooding stream. You can't plan to go directly across. And it would be disaster to just 'go with the flow'. Could the Buddha be indicating that consistent attention is needed, without fluctuating surges in energy likely to make one careless through over-confidence or anxious and doubtful? Persistence and endurance seem to be of value here, while being aware of, but not overcome by, obstacles. [A stray thought - what happened to the Raft we often hear about that we're not supposed to carry around on our shoulders once we've used it to cross the flood? Is this the no frills economy class sutta version? :-) ] What's the dead-centre-important practice issue Howard? Right Effort? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the Flood, is > very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite important. The > ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the beginning, > is the following: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html > BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions on the > "no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis- a-vis the > Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it deals, I think, > with a dead-center-important practice issue. 28312 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Dear James, Thank you, very nicely put, Nina. op 25-12-2003 22:12 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > From these introductory notes, it can be > seen that the SN has plenty of material for a serious meditator like > myself and material which will appeal to the Abhidhamma folks. I > would like to invite everyone to study the SN with me, Sarah, Howard, > and Christine, and post material with comments or questions, as you > see fit. The true purpose of any sangha is to encourage each other > to learn and practice the dhamma. We are together in the pursuit of > knowledge and wisdom with the dhamma as our teacher. 28313 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, I am in the middle of my Thai study of this subject, difficult texts from Yamaka and Co. It will take a long time to put it into understandable language, that is why you will not hear from me yet about this subject. But looking on further: in akusala citta, kusala citta and avyaakata citta, even in the magga-citta there are anusaya with the citta. As I understand: they adhere in every citta. Nina. op 26-12-2003 08:18 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi All > > I need to clarify latent tendecies. > > Suan in his message 25480 > Anusaya-s are merely eradicatable cetasikas (maggehi pahaatabba > cetasika-s). Even though the term "anusaya" sounds invisibly lying > somewhere, this is only for figurative purposes. That is to say, they > are nowhere to be found outside unhealthy consciousnesses (akusala > cittaani) that arise in the present. > > When I read the survey of Paramattha Dhamma A. Sujin said that > "When the votthabbana-citta has fallen away, the sixth vithi-citta, > the kusala-citta, the akusala-citta, or the mahakiriya-citta of the > lokiya type, would arise to perform javana-kicca in a series of seven > citta, thereby accumulating latent tendencies in continuation. As > stated in the passage "included in the word "citta" are kusala-citta, > akusala-citta and mahakiriya-citta of the lokiya type. Called > "citta" because it accumulates latent tendencies in continuation, > with the efficiency of the javana-vithi." > > Could someone pse clarify whether kusala citta has latent tendency. > > 28314 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Formal Practice or not Dear Ken, don't let it get you down. I always like your posts and I am waiting for them! Nina. op 26-12-2003 11:21 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Thank you for prompting me to contribute to the > discussions but I'm still finding it hard to string a few > words together. I'm suffering a general sluggishness and > dejection that could be due to any of several > reasons. For example, I am fat and weak from festive- > season gluttony and lack of exercise (terrible surf > lately). 28315 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:58am Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Dear All, This modern commentary "Crossing the Flood" by Scott Fogelsong on the Oghatarana sutta may be of interest (lots on Devas) : http://scottlf.home.mindspring.com/floodsutra.htm#_ftnref29 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > 1. One thing (trivial perhaps) that I notice translators differ on, > is the gender of Devas. Bhikkhu Bodhi invests this one with a > masculine gender, whereas Thanissaros' translation makes her female. > Is there anything known about gender issues among the devas? And does > it matter? After all, only humans ordain, and devas in general have > their own power and respect. > 2. Interesting that the Buddha says (in Bhikkhu Bodhi's trans.) "By > not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood." 28316 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:02pm Subject: Bangkok...Bangkok... Next week I will finally take my assignment at the Brazillian Air Force Department of Engineering (DIRENG): my Dhamma Diary is being delayed due to many things I ought to adjust, bugs to be fixed up and so on. Nina and Lodenweijk will take a rest at Bangkok untill Feb... I must confess I am missing to much the usual conversations with Saras, Jon, Connie, Mike and others of these noble company of Dhamma Students. When I buy (at last!!!) a new scanner all you, good people, will look at my bootcamp photos...the wonderful mud warrior at mud waters!!!! (Los Grelos will never be the same...) Kisses and best regards to you all! Mettaya, Ícaro 28317 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:04pm Subject: Re: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Larry, Sorry for my late late delayed reply. I do have a thought to reply this letter. Round about this post, I got millions of posts in a day ( that was hundreds ) and I stopped all those. I tried to search the post again. Now that I found, so I reply it. This post may dig up Panatta and many discussions may follow I hope. Howard said, Panatta arises and falls away. I asked him in which way. But he failed to answer, I think. In Rupa Jhana, the object is Panatta. It is called Nimitta Panatta. 'Satta' is Panatta. It is not ultimate reality. When someone spread his Metta to Sattas, he is concentrating at Sattas which is Panatta. In Asubha Kammatthana, the corpses are Panatta. At first, the norvice saw at the corpse. Even though it was a sight, he viewed as Satta's corpse, which again is a Panatta. This Panatta again changes into Uggaha Nimitta or mental image. This again changes into Patibhaga Nimitta or counter image. All these Nimitta are called Nimitta Panatta. I hope this may work for you. With Unmlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > I don't understand how pannatta is the object of jhana. What does that > mean? Is the object of jhana a word or idea attached to a visualization > or 'sensualization' (as with touch in breath meditation)? > > In Way 50 (Satipatthana Commentary) there is the following: > > "It is said that a young bhikkhu went with a novice to get wood for > tooth-cleaners. The novice getting out of the road proceeded in front to > a place in search of wood and saw a corpse. Meditating on it he produced > the first absorption, and making the factors of the absorption a basis > for developing insight realized the first three fruitions of > arahantship, while examining the conformations [sankhare sammasanto], > and stood having laid hold of the subject of meditation for realizing > the path of full arahantship." > > L: What would be the role of pannatta in this jhana? Would there be a > visualization or similar dream-like experience? What are "the > conformations"? Thanks for your help. > > Larry > > ps: I have read several accounts of children entering absorption by > focusing on their names. Is this jhana? 28318 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard, I am really sorry to post this late and delayed reply. I posted a delayed reply before this. I stated that you mentioned Panatta arises and falls away. Now I am clear that you did not mean it. The idea of a tree, the example you gave, you said the concept arise as in case of Pathavi ( hardness ) and falla away. I think what you talked about is Dhammaarammana or mental object. Yes, mental object arise and fall away. But Panatta does not. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In the following you ask "Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti > does arise and how it passess away?" No, I don't think I can. I don't quite > understand what you are asking for. When I think of a tree, that is the > arising of the concept 'tree', and when I cease to think of it, that is the > ceasing of hat concept. It is just the same as when I experience hardness, > that is the arising of the rupa of hardness, and when I cease to experience > it, that is the cessation of it. When I become a better vipassanika, perhaps > I will be better able to answer you. > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 2/18/03 9:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Thanks for your reply and the second post of your self-correction. > > Could you explain more clearly how Pannatti does arise and how it > > passess away? > > > > When someone says in Japanese,one who knows it understands it.The > > same meaning again is said by the other person in Mandarin,one using > > it will well understand it.If the same sentence is said in Panjabi > > then > > the same thing will happen.At that particular moment one who knows > > all these languages will understand it only in one sense > > (meaning,essence). > > > > One who have enough power(Jhana and has Paracitta-vijjanana) will > > know the meaning without language.Pannatti is a matter of debate I > > think.How will you explain all about these? > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Htoo - > > > > >Pannatta is not a real thing or it is not a Paramattha Sacca.It has > > no lifespan.It does not arise or pass away ... > > then ... But, of course, there *are* concepts. > > >Whenever we think of a tree or a table or a house, there is a > > concept, and > > >whenever we "see" one of these, we are applying a concept as a > > template to a > > >bundle of just-passed visual experiences. Both the concepts > > themselves and > > >the application of them to "bundles of just-passed experiences" > > actually > > >occur. So, there *are* pa~n~natti in the sense of mentally > > constructed > > >phenomena that are used as templates applied to aggregates of > > direct > > >experiences. These pa~n~natti DO arise and pass away, for they > > exist and are > > >conditioned, and all conditioned dhammas are impermanent! > > > Now, the word 'pa~n~natta' is *also* used for the alleged > > *referent* > > >of a concept. Even when that is a paramattha dhamma, it is not an > > existent in > > >the mode that it is grasped by the pa~n~natta, for that mode of > > (conceptual) > > >grasping is merely indirect and inferential. Of course, the > > referent of a > > >*complex* concept such as 'tree' isn't even amenable to direct > > experiencing > > >but *only* via the mental construct of 'tree'. But the conventional > > tree is > > >not nothing at all, because it is based on an aggregate of actual, > > >interrelated, direct experiences. Conventional objects such as > > trees, though > > >not existing *as such*, independent of our conceptualization, still > > can be > > >considered to be impermanent; to the extent that they exist, which > > is merely > > >conventional, they are derivatively impermanent, because the > > underlying > > >"realities" are impermanent. The "tree" is seen to grow from a > > seed, to > > >constantly change, with leaves growing and falling off, with > > branches > > >accupying varying conditions - swaying in the breeze. That is all, > > of course, > > >merely a conventional manner of speaking, but it reflects the > > reality of the > > >impermanence of the paramattha dhammas underlying "the tree". I > > think we > > >tread on dangerous ground when we speak of things other than > > nibbana as > > >neither arising nor ceasing. > > > > > >With metta, > > >Howard 28319 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi, James - In a message dated 12/26/03 1:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > > The 1st sutta of the 1st chapter of SN, Crossing Over the > Flood, is > >very short and is also one of my favorites. I think it is quite > important. The > >ATI link for it, in case there is any interest in beginning at the > beginning, > >is the following: > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-001.html > > BTW, this sutta might provoke some interesting discussions > on the > >"no-control" aspect of anattata. It is also relevant, I think, vis- > a-vis the > >Taoist/Zen notion of "wu wei" (actionless action), and, mainly, it > deals, I think, > >with a dead-center-important practice issue. > > Yea, this is a very good sutta. It is deceptively simple and deep in > meaning. I think the Buddha is saying that not by standing still and > not by struggling he crossed the flood (flood of ignorance, samsara, > craving, etc.). > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree. Deceptively simple but very deep in meaning. What you provide below is really worthwhile. But the main problem is to unravel *exactly* what the Buddha meant when he said "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." On the face of it, it sounds contradictory, and yet I have the sense of what it means. I think you may have hit on the meaning exactly when you speak of a selfless acting. There is volition, and there is action, but, all the while , there is no one doing anything. This is a kind of koan, which if penetrated is an open door to liberation. ----------------------------------------------------- > > "Note 3: The Buddha's brief reply points to the middle way (majjhima > patipada) in its most comprehensive range, both practical and > philosophical. To make the implication clear Spk enumerates seven > dyads: (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining" by > way of volitional formations, one gets swept away; (ii) by way of > craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one > gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks, by way of views, > one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; > by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way > of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; > (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of > devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of > all unwholesome volitional formations one sinks, by way of all > mundane wholesome volitional formations one gets swept away." > > I think this does relate greatly to the principal of Wu Wei, selfless > action. However, wu wei has a different emphasis in Taoism in that > it can be practiced in any activity, even cutting up a dead cow (an > example used by Chaung Tzu and how the knife of the wu wei butcher > remained sharp). Wu Wei to the Buddha would still have to be > performed under certain strict standards, precepts, etc. > > The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in > today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole > standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's > minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of > ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the > Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > > >With metta, > >Howard > > Metta, James > =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28320 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Jon, Mike and Howard, Panatta does not arise and it does not fall away as it is not a reality. When it is not a reality that is it is not an existence, it has not to arise and fall away. What seems arise and fall away is Dhammaarammana or mental object. Mental object arises. As soon as it arises, the mind called Manodvara Avajjana Citta take it and then Manodvara Javana Cittas arise in a series of 7. After that, the mental object may exist or fall away. But Panatta on the other hand cannot arise or fall away, as it is not an existence and it is not an ultimate reality. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike (and Howard) > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > > > ... > > This has come up before and I basically agree with you both. > > On the other hand, it also seems to me that only pa.n.natti, maybe, > > can be > > the the basis of conventional (conceptual) insight? (Potentially > > confusing >Yes, I believe it's correct to say that at moments of understanding at an intellectual level the object will be concepts and not absolute dhammas. This intellectual understanding is a necessary prelude to direct experiencing (mundane path moments). Right view as a path factor is the panna that arises with the mundane path moments (satipatthana/vipassana). >It's always good to go over it again. Our grasp of these things is > essentially weak and needs constant reinforcement. > Jon 28321 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint Dear Nina, Howard, Larry and all, I just dig up Panatta again as it plays an important role in understanding of Dhamma. I would say, '' Panatta never arises, and never falls away. '' Panatta is not an ultimate reality. As it is not a real existence, it does not have to arise and fall away. But Panatta can be taken as an object. That is mental object. As mental object, the Dhammaarammana arises and falls away, like our thoughts. You may notice that sometimes thoughts go away. But Panatta cannot arise or fall away. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Larry > op 09-03-2003 18:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > Is the mental image of Howard's tree a nimita (sign)? Is a mental image > > considered to be a concept? > N: Yes, it is not a nama or rupa with its own unalterable characteristic > that can be directly experienced such as hardness. We do not have to name > hardness, it can be experienced through the bodysense, no matter what name > we use.. > L:The mental image for me is generic and > > somewhat ideal, for Howard it may be specific and "flawed". Would the > > generic and ideal image be a counterpart sign and the specific and > > flawed image be a learning sign? > N: No, I do not see it in this way. Counterpart sign and learning sign are > referred to in connection with samatha only. Take the kasina: first there is > the learning sign when one begins to develop calm, later on one does not > have to look, there is already the counterpart sign. However, I understand > that you want to compare different impressions of Howard's famous tree. > Nina 28322 From: Carl Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:48pm Subject: Re: Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) upasaka@a... wrote: > =========================== > I've read through the SN several times, but there is no end to the > usefulness of its study. I will be happy to discuss some of the suttas therein > with you and James and anyone else on DSG. > > Howard As a Lurker, I am looking foreward to studying the SN within the DSG. Thank you for providing such a grand opportunity. Carl 28323 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi, James (and all) - In a message dated 12/26/03 1:53:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi All, > > At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devata recited this verse in > the presence of the Blessed One: > > "Those who dwell deep in the forest, > Peaceful, leading the holy life, > Eating but a single meal a day: > Why is their complexion so serene?* > > [The Blessed One:] > "They do not sorrow over the past, > Nor do they hanker for the future. > They maintain themselves with what is present: > Hence their complexion is so serene. > > "Through hankering for the future, > Through sorrowing over the past, > Fools dry up and wither away > Like a green reed cut down." > SN I, 10 ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: James, I think your note below bringing out the deva-centric view as opposed to the renunciate's view is very interesting. In particular, I think that pointing out the naturally radiant being's interest in the radiance seen in the monks is interesting. I would like to ask a question on another matter, however, of anyone who has information on the topic: The immediately following commentarial note interprets the sutta as giving sitting meditation as the cause of the serene radiance. Now, while I am all in favor of meditation and I maintain that the Buddha called for it repeatedly, I just don't see formal sitting meditation in this sutta. I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, more generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside track" that the commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside track at all, and the commentarial interpretations are just a matter of opinion (which is often led by interest and inclination)? ---------------------------------------------------------- > *Note 18: Spk: This verse was spoken by an earth-bound deva who dwelt > in that forest. Each day he would see the bhikkhus who inhabited the > forest sitting in meditation after their meal. As they sat, their > minds would become unified and serene, and the serenity of their > minds would become manifest in their complexion (vanna). Puzzled > that they could have such serene faces while living under these > austere conditions, the deva came to the Buddha to inquire into the > case. The facial complexion (mukhavanna) or complexion of the skin > (chavivanna) is understood to indicate success in meditation. > > James' Note: The first chapter of the Samyutta Nikaya is the > Devatasamyutta "Connected Discources with Devatas. This is an > interesting chapter because the discourses reveal the personalities > and interests of the devas in contrast to the deep wisdom and vision > of the Buddha. The devas, being heavenly beings, have joy and > delight as a mainstay and so they approach the Buddha predominately > as curiosity seekers. Because they exist in a heavenly sphere, the > Buddha greatly emphases The Middle Path when discussing the Dhamma > with them to illustrate that their existence is a type of extreme and > that delight in heaven, or torture in hell, are not conducive to > following the middle path to Nibbana. Because they are from a > heavenly realm, predominately their mode of speech is in verse and so > the Buddha replies in verse as well. > > The above sutta reveals what is noticeable to this particular deva, > how the Buddha's monks look. Since devas have luminous bodies which > give off light, they would be interested in why certain humans can > have a similar type of appearance at times. The Buddha's answer > draws the deva away from just thinking about their appearance and > thinking about the internal wisdom that causes it. > > Comments? Perhaps someone else would like to post a sutta from the > Devatasamyutta which also reveals the personality/interest of the > devas in contrast to the deep wisdom of the Buddha? > > Metta, James > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28324 From: Carl Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Nina, Howard, Larry and all, >.......snip...... > Htoo Naing: But Panatta can be taken as an object. That is mental object. As > mental object, the Dhammaarammana arises and falls away, like our > thoughts........snip...... >.............................. Carl.. Htoo Naing am I correct in thinking thusly: Vision, seeing the tree, is a mental construct to the full extent that it is impossible to view the "outside world" as the outside world. Seeing arises within our brain mass. We can not actually see or know "out there". The knowing of the "outside world" does not take place out there, the knowing is confined to within our brain mass. Our senses only provide an interpretation of the objects and activities of the outside world. The true nature of the *outside world* is unknowable. Is this Panatta? Or is Panatta more closely tied to the "word" we use to describe or create a concept of the *tree*? Is Panatta a result of language/ideas or is Panatta more akin to the objective world being in our head? I don't know if I am being very clear, but thanks for any clarity you may offer. Carl 28325 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/26/03 2:18:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > You can't control what happens in a flooding stream. You can't plan > to go directly across. And it would be disaster to just 'go with the > flow'. Could the Buddha be indicating that consistent attention is > needed, without fluctuating surges in energy likely to make one > careless through over-confidence or anxious and doubtful? > Persistence and endurance seem to be of value here, while being aware > of, but not overcome by, obstacles. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Excellent points, I think, Christine. At least part of this issue is that the middle way of practice (and, BTW, this addresses your final question to me, below) is a practice that centers on constant, unrelenting attention, and subtle adjustments of activity that directly and egolessly grow out of that attention. ------------------------------------------------ > [A stray thought - what happened to the Raft we often hear about that > we're not supposed to carry around on our shoulders once we've used > it to cross the flood? Is this the no frills economy class sutta > version? :-) ] > > What's the dead-centre-important practice issue Howard? Right Effort? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, right effort of a sort - subtle, egoless effort growing out of right mindfulness. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28326 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi, Christine - Thanks, Christine.I've bookmarked this article. You never fail to come with interesting and relevant articles!! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/26/03 2:59:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear All, > > This modern commentary "Crossing the Flood" by Scott Fogelsong on > the Oghatarana sutta may be of interest (lots on Devas) : > http://scottlf.home.mindspring.com/floodsutra.htm#_ftnref29 > > metta and peace, > Christine /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28327 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/26/03 3:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Howard said, Panatta arises and falls away. I asked him in which way. > But he failed to answer, I think. > ========================= I maintain that only in the sense of 'pa~n~natti' as "thoughts" or "ideas" or other mental constructs. They come and go as objects of consciousness. But I do not think that their referents (such as trees and cars) arise and fall away, because they never even exist at all except in a manner of speaking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28328 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/26/03 3:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I am really sorry to post this late and delayed reply. I posted a > delayed reply before this. I stated that you mentioned Panatta arises > and falls away. Now I am clear that you did not mean it. > > The idea of a tree, the example you gave, you said the concept arise > as in case of Pathavi ( hardness ) and falla away. I think what you > talked about is Dhammaarammana or mental object. > > Yes, mental object arise and fall away. But Panatta does not. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ========================= Yes, you are correct (I think). I do not think that trees and cars and human bodies and email lists literally arise and cease. The thoughts of them do, and the interrelated rupas subsumed by these concepts do, but *they* do not except as a convention. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28329 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samyutta Nikaya discussions (was Question on ego and self ..) Hi, Carl - In a message dated 12/26/03 5:49:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, c7carl@y... writes: > As a Lurker, I am looking foreward to studying the SN within the > DSG. Thank you for providing such a grand opportunity. Carl > ========================== Great! The more participants, the likelier we are to see new and important aspects of the teaching. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28330 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not/KenH Hiya KenH, Post-Christmas depression and sluggishness are endemic. Are you quite certain you aren't just ducking out to the Maleny Folk Festival up the road and neglecting us? :-) My son Luke and a mate have gone camping there with the hippies (isn't that a lovely word 'hippies', evoking those old memories of tie dyed sarongs, cheese cloth, acoustic guitars, love, and aromatic smoke wafting out of camper vans, peace man!) for a week. So lock up your daughters Noosa Hinterlanders :-)). Seriously though, it is a common experience. So much build-up for the festive season. Buddhists aren't immune to having 'expectations' and overindulging, or to the awareness of another year passing and the world being a bit further 'down the gurgler'. I wonder why we always expect it to improve - clearly we don't learn from experience. Just the same old greed, hate and delusion in all their fascinating and well-disguised permutations and combinations. I know, at work, February is the red alert month for family crises. Stress and unhappiness resulting from the build up through November and December of advertising about how 'happy families' all have wonderful old-fashioned, loving, perfect Christmases - with everyone's dreams coming true. The secret is to buy big presents - if you "really" love someone, and are "really" loved by someone, you'll get the 'just right' present, and have the 'just right' experience. Don't worry about having cash - put it all on Credit Card- you'll manage to pay it off (somehow) "next year"... yeah, right, 'til the Statements come in in February. I know you will chirrup up soon KenH, as soon as you get back into your normal diet and exercise routine. "Brisbane Expects" you (and Andrew and Steve)to chip in on the Samyutta Corner Conversations - learn a few suttas for a change, mate - have a little rest from straight Abhidhamma. :-)) Get out a bit and talk about 'namas and rupas in story form' (I'll be able to understand you then. Yaayy! :-)) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sukin and Sarah, > > Thank you for prompting me to contribute to the > discussions but I'm still finding it hard to string a few > words together. I'm suffering a general sluggishness and > dejection that could be due to any of several > reasons. For example, I am fat and weak from festive- > season gluttony and lack of exercise (terrible surf > lately). > > I know, from experience, that the longer I remain off- > list the harder it is to get back on. So I will, at > least, apologise for muffing the baton change. > > :-) > Kind regards, > Ken H 28331 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:49pm Subject: Re: Coming on Too Strong Dear Howard, James and Sarah, I too, considered this a touching post, Howard. I read the original post and thought you were being quite brave in coming out with comments like that! Then realised that if we were all in a room together having a discussion, the words would probably be the same if you felt strongly enuff about the issue, it just seems to be more 'permanent' when its down in writing. It certainly is a condition for me to think more deeply about the teachings, esp Abhidhamma, and not to have so much 'blind faith'. As James states 'those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains shaked'. LOL. Thanks James. Reading, considering, questioning and discussing aspects of the teachings is part of those 4 things that the Buddha has said may lead to the obtaining of wisdom. Already mentioned by Sarah as well. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and all) - > > > > It occurs to me that in some recent posts I may well > have "come on too > > strongly" with regard to minor elements of Abhidhamma > > This is such a sweet post! A sign of true egolessness. However, > sometimes I feel those Abhidhamma lovers need to have their chains > shaked! And I think that I am glad when they shake my chains > also!! ;-)) We all need that on a daily basis. My culminated posts > about the Abhidhamma make yours seem like love letters, and I am not > guilty about those one bit. We can all be friends and we can all > slap each other's face once in a while!! ;-)) What's friendship > for? ;-)) > > Metta, James 28332 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hello Howard and all, The note 18 also has an additional line that mentions references 21:3 (II 275, 20-21), 28:1 (III 235, 22) and Vin I 40, 14 and 41, 2. At 21:3 Bhikkhusamyutta 'The Barrel' - Ven Saariputta says to Venerable Mahaamoggallaana "Friend Moggallaana, your faculties are serene, your facial complexion is pure and bright. Has the Venerable Mahaamoggallaana spent the day in a peaceful dwelling?" "I spent the day in a gross dwelling, friend, but I did have some Dhamma talk." {384} Note 384 says Spk: The dwelling is called 'gross' on account of its object. For he dwelt in the exercise of the divine eye and divine ear element which take gross objects, namely, the form base and the sound base. 28:1 (III 235, 22) says: 28 Saariputtasamyutta Connected Discourses with Saariputta 1 'Born of Seclusion' "Then, in the evening, the Venerable Saariputta emerged from seclusion and went to Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. The Venerable Ananda saw the Venerable Saariputta coming in the distance and said to him: "Friend Saariputta, your faculties are serene, your facial complexion is pure and bright. In what dwelling has the Venerable Saariputta spent the day?" "Here, friend, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered and dwelt in the first jhaana which is accompanied by thought and examination, with rapture and happiness born of seclusion. Yet, friend, it did not occur to me, 'I am attaining the first jhaana,' or 'I have attained the first jhaana,' or 'I have emerged from the first jhaana.'" I don't have access to the Vinaya to check those references. It seems the word 'dwelling' is not straight forward. I first thought it was a kuti or root of a tree. But it is more a mental state? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I would like to ask a question on another matter, however, of anyone > who has information on the topic: The immediately following commentarial note > interprets the sutta as giving sitting meditation as the cause of the serene > radiance. Now, while I am all in favor of meditation and I maintain that the > Buddha called for it repeatedly, I just don't see formal sitting meditation in > this sutta. I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, more > generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside track" that the > commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside track at all, and the > commentarial interpretations are just a matter of opinion (which is often led by > interest and inclination)? > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > *Note 18: Spk: This verse was spoken by an earth-bound deva who dwelt > > in that forest. Each day he would see the bhikkhus who inhabited the > > forest sitting in meditation after their meal. As they sat, their > > minds would become unified and serene, and the serenity of their > > minds would become manifest in their complexion (vanna). Puzzled > > that they could have such serene faces while living under these > > austere conditions, the deva came to the Buddha to inquire into the > > case. The facial complexion (mukhavanna) or complexion of the skin > > (chavivanna) is understood to indicate success in meditation. > > 28333 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Christine and James Could you kindly clarify Note 384 says Spk - does this mean commentary notes or notes from B.Bodhi. kind rgds Ken O 28334 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hello Ken O, and all, As far as I can tell Ken, it is a Commentary note directly quoted by BB - not his own composition. note 384 appears after the sentence "I spent the day in a gross dwelling, friend, but I did have some Dhamma talk. [384] It is then explained on page 822 Bhikkhusamyutta: Notes of the Connected Discourses of the Buddha, A new translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Volume 1. Wisdom Publications, Boston, as: Spk: "The dwelling is called gross etc. ..." as per my last post. On page 1999 Volume II under Abbreviations 1. Primary Works: "Spk" refers to Saaratthappakaasini, Samyutta Nikkaaya-atthakathaa (Burmese Script ed.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine and James > > Could you kindly clarify > > Note 384 says Spk - does this mean commentary notes or notes from > B.Bodhi. > > > kind rgds > Ken O 28335 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:05pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Htoo Naing, After all your brilliant posts explaining the true meaning of satipatthana, you follow up with this parody! A conceptual imitation of satipatthana does nothing but ridicule the real thing. Why are you suggesting that the Buddha taught such a practice? Where in the Pali Canon, is it said that mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of dhammas? There are some lines in the Satipatthana-sutta that can be taken this way but, to do so, would be to take them completely out of context with the rest of the Tipitaka. The commentaries hasten to explain that mindfulness of the concept of walking (for example), is not what the Buddha taught. You, yourself, have acknowledged this. But now you would have us believe that mindfulness of concepts does play a part. Why? ----------- HN: > While he is practising sitting in meditation, he is being aware of what exactly he is doing and what is arising at each moment. When he considers that he wants to stop sitting and wants standing, he knows that he wants them. Then his mindfulness on breath is shifted to his body position. ----------- Why, has he stopped breathing? Who is watching the breathing while there is mindfulness of 'wanting to stand up?' The same question applies to everything that follows in this surprising post. Who is to say there should be mindfulness of 'having the eyes open?' At that time, where is the mindfulness of walking, of keeping the back straight, of looking ahead, of what the left foot is doing, of what the right foot is doing, of wanting to go to the toilet? In other words: the whole practice is illogical and unworkable. ----------- HN: > He wants to put down the glass on the table. He does that consciously. ----------- If he does, can there be satipatthama at that exact, same, moment? Or is he only concerned with the future? Kind regards, Ken H 28336 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Hi Sarah, This is a very nice message and good start and thank you for the extracts from the intro. James: You're welcome. Glad that you enjoyed. I've said to James that I'm very content to follow his lead and I know he's giving it plenty of consideration. It won't be boring. As he says, we can relax and threads can and will take on a life of their own as usual and never need die;-). James: Well, I don't know if it will never be boring. As I tell my students, "Boring people bore easily." Christine, so glad you're happy to contribute - this will be a great help. I hope other Cooranites are taking note as well;-). It's a good idea of James's to start with the intro. So do you have any comments on the intro extracts he selected or have any other passages in the intro you'd like to bring to our attention? With all James's psychic abilities --;-)— James: I have a cold now so thankfully those are on the fritz ;-). , he'll know just when to start posting from the first chapter, SN1, SN2 and so on and I think we can follow this lead to then comment on his suttas and `take' on them or introduce others from the same chapter we wish to share. Of course some will say it's too fast and others that it's too slow, as Larry is used to;-) James is an imaginative and skilful teacher, so it'll work out fine, James: Thank you for the compliment, and I know that you probably didn't intend this, but I want to make it clear that I am not a teacher of these suttas. English, yes; Suttas, no. I was just going to share my study to encourage others, not teach them. Hopefully we can teach each other. I am quite excited about the prospect because it will make me less lazy in my studies. Thank you for introducing the idea. I know. Pls go ahead and post the link to the article you mentioned off-list - it may be interesting for others too. We'll all find our own favourite sections in due course and of course they probably won't be the same;-) James: Yes, I was appalled when I read Leigh's comment "The first 11 books are not all that interesting, but here are a few interesting suttas:" Not all that interesting??? We could spend weeks on the first sutta alone! (See above boring comment ;-). KenO, I'm very interested to read the sections I'm not at all familiar with and look at the commentary notes which BB supplies. I won't be translating anything (I'm not a Pali expert or reader - just an occasional term at best), but will certainly be quoting -- and encouraging others to do so --from the comy notes as often as I can get away with;-) If she's not too busy, Nina or others with Pali expertise may be able to supplement these with any other key points for consideration. It'll be great to have your contributions in any form or kind. Metta, Sarah p.s Jon pointed out that it might be less confusing if we use the same way of reference that BB uses in his notes. (Jon, hope this means you'll be contributing too;-)) James: Okay, this sounds like a good idea. Metta, James 28337 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 7:33pm Subject: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > You can't control what happens in a flooding stream. You can't plan > to go directly across. And it would be disaster to just 'go with the > flow'. Could the Buddha be indicating that consistent attention is > needed, without fluctuating surges in energy likely to make one > careless through over-confidence or anxious and doubtful? > Persistence and endurance seem to be of value here, while being aware > of, but not overcome by, obstacles. James: According to the commentary notes: "Spk: The Blessed One deliberately gave an obscure reply to the deva in order to humble him, for he was stiff with conceit yet imagined himself wise. Realizing that the deva would not be able to penetrate the teaching unless he first changed his attitude, the Buddha intended to perplex him and thereby curb his pride. At that point, humbled, the deva would ask for clarification and the Buddha would explain in such a way that he could understand." I really like some of the commentary notes because they give some background information that isn't present in the original sutta. These deva, when he approached the Buddha, must have thought he was hot stuff by knowing enough to ask, "How, dear sir, did you cross the flood?" He wanted to test the Buddha's wisdom and to demonstrate what he knew. When I read the sutta I took the line, "When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank" as being the time when he was a prince and began to sink into the household life; and the line "but when I struggled, then I got swept away" as being the time when he practiced severe austerities in the forest. By avoiding these two extremes he was able to cross the flood, become enlightened. What do you think? > [A stray thought - what happened to the Raft we often hear about that > we're not supposed to carry around on our shoulders once we've used > it to cross the flood? Is this the no frills economy class sutta > version? :-) ] James: He probably used this metaphor of crossing the flood because that is what the deva asked. If he had introduced a metaphor of a raft at that point, the message would have gotten kind of messy. Mixing metaphors gets really confusing. > > What's the dead-centre-important practice issue Howard? Right Effort? > > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, James 28338 From: dhammasaro Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:06pm Subject: Re: Sentient Being Christine, A very warm thank you. Chuck --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Chuck, and all, > > The Pali Text Society Pali-English dictionary contains the following > definition. The places where the Pali term is used in the Tipitika > are listed within the entry below. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > Satta2 (p. 673) [cp, Vedic sattva living being, satvan "strong man, > warrior," fr. sant] 1. (m.) a living being, creature, a sentient & > rational being, a person D I.17, 34, 53, 82; II.68; A I.35 sq., 55 > sq.; S I.135; V.41; Vin I.5; Miln 273; Vism 310 (defn: "rup'adisu > khandhesu chandaragena satta visatta ti satta," thus=satta1); Nett > 161; DA I.51, 161; VbhA 144. --naraka° a being in purgatory (cp. > niraya°) Vism 500. -- 2. (nt.) soul (=jivita or vinnana) Pv I.81 > (gata°=vigata--jivita PvA 40). <-> 3. (nt.) substance Vin I.287. > nissatta non--substantial, phenomenal DhsA 38. > nn--avasa abode of sentient beings (see nava1 2) D III.263, 268; A > V.53; Vism 552; VbhA 168. --ussada (see ussada 4) teeming with life, > full of people D I.87, 111, 131. --loka the world of living creatures > SnA 263, 442; Vism 205. See also sankhara--loka. --vanijja slave > trade DA I.235=A III.208 (C.: manussa--vikkaya). > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammasaro" > wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > Happy holidays to all. > > > > Four questions: > > > > 1. Is/are there Pali words for "sentient being(s)"; > > > > 2. Does the Tipitaka use the words; > > > > 3. If yes, where; and > > > > 4. If yes, what do the words mean? > > > > metta, > > > > Chuck 28339 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Christine Many thanks and you are always a sparkling gem :) in the list kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Ken O, and all, > > As far as I can tell Ken, it is a Commentary note directly quoted > by > BB - not his own composition. > > note 384 appears after the sentence "I spent the day in a gross > dwelling, friend, but I did have some Dhamma talk. [384] > It is then explained on page 822 Bhikkhusamyutta: Notes of the > Connected Discourses of the Buddha, A new translation by Bhikkhu > Bodhi. Volume 1. Wisdom Publications, Boston, > as: > Spk: "The dwelling is called gross etc. ..." as per my last post. > > On page 1999 Volume II under Abbreviations 1. Primary Works: > "Spk" refers to Saaratthappakaasini, Samyutta Nikkaaya-atthakathaa > (Burmese Script ed.) > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > 28340 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Thank you Ken O - what a graceful thing to say. :-)) with smiling metta Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong .yahoo.com/download/index.html 28341 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/26/03 8:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > The note 18 also has an additional line that mentions references 21:3 > (II 275, 20-21), 28:1 (III 235, 22) and Vin I 40, 14 and 41, 2. > > ========================== Ahh, I see. The interpretation was made on the basis of similar suttas in which the meditative conditioning was evident. Very good - that is reasonable. Thanks for providing this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28342 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Howard: James, I think your note below bringing out the deva-centric view as opposed to the renunciate's view is very interesting. In particular, I think that pointing out the naturally radiant being's interest in the radiance seen in the monks is interesting. James: Thanks. I tend to look at things a bit differently than others. Some like this about me and others don't. Glad that you do. ;-) James: I would like to ask a question on another matter, however, of anyone who has information on the topic: The immediately following commentarial note interprets the sutta as giving sitting meditation as the cause of the serene radiance. Now, while I am all in favor of meditation and I maintain that the Buddha called for it repeatedly, I just don't see formal sitting meditation in this sutta. James: I just offered that commentarial note because I thought it was interesting. It gave some background information. I also noticed that meditation wasn't mentioned in the sutta itself but thought that the commentarial information could have been accurate. The monks, not all of them being enlightened, would probably more likely `glow' when they were in deep meditation and immediately afterward, but maybe not all the time. I believe that the Buddha was supposed to have this `glow' at all times and would emit multi-colored rays when he meditated. I guess the Buddha wanted to emphasize that the serenity and `glow' came from truly being in the present moment, while meditating or not. Howard: I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, more generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside track" that the commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside track at all, and the commentarial interpretations are just a matter of opinion (which is often led by interest and inclination)? James: My understanding is that the commentarial notes have been passed down, along with the suttas, as background information for the suttas. The original monks and nuns memorized the suttas to teach the dhamma to other monks and nuns. The suttas themselves don't give all of the background information in order to make them easily memorized and formulaic. However, some of the monks would know some of the background information for a particular sutta and passed that information along as well. Buddhaghosa translated most of the commentaries from their original Singhala to Pali on the island of Sri Lanka, where the only intact copies remained. Of course, which ones he kept intact and which ones he chose to elaborate on is the subject of much debate (which I won't get into that again! ;-). Since the originals are gone, we will never know (and who is to say that even the originals didn't contain some elaborations?). I am wary of those commentaries which give an analysis of various issues, especially using Abhidhamma terms, because I am not sure if they are from the Buddha or someone else's opinion. I think that those which give just background information, like why a particular deva asked a particula question, are probably accurate; but not everyone has to agree. Metta, James 28343 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Dear James, I'm not so sure the difficulty of determining the Middly Way is any more pronounced than it was 2500 years ago in India (except that we've lost the living voice of the Buddha and his close disciples). The "strict austerities" route is driven by the notion that liberation can be won by following rules and rituals. The "hedonist" route is that the rules are nonsense and liberation is found in full indulgence of the senses. Both these ideas are rampant and visible in today's world, even among Buddhists (and even within individuals Buddhists!). The Buddha taught that rules and rituals are not the path (or even a part of the path -- unless the "path" is taken in a broad sense so that following the five precepts even with impure motives is on the "path"), liberation is attained by following any particular prescription for activity. On the other hand, he taught that following the urges of the moment is also not the path. The path is something distinctly different from reliance on rules or wanton dimissal of rules (or won-ton dismissal of rules for those living in HK [path is eating to satisfy all cravings?]). Dan > > The difficulty of determining The Middle Way is very strong in > > today's world. The world is void of strict austerities so the whole > > standard has shifted more to the pleasure side in most people's > > minds. For example, smoking just one pack of cigarettes instead of > > ten isn't following the Middle Way! ;-)) What we might consider the > > Middle Way the Buddha probably wouldn't. What do you think? > > > > >With metta, > > >Howard > > > > Metta, James 28344 From: Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi, James - In a message dated 12/26/03 11:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Howard: I'm curious as to how the commentary gives this reading, and, > more generally, I'm curious as to what is the basis for the "inside > track" that the commentaries appear to have. Or is there no inside > track at all, and the commentarial interpretations are just a matter > of opinion (which is often led by interest and inclination)? > > James: My understanding is that the commentarial notes have been > passed down, along with the suttas, as background information for the > suttas. The original monks and nuns memorized the suttas to teach > the dhamma to other monks and nuns. The suttas themselves don't give > all of the background information in order to make them easily > memorized and formulaic. However, some of the monks would know some > of the background information for a particular sutta and passed that > information along as well. Buddhaghosa translated most of the > commentaries from their original Singhala to Pali on the island of > Sri Lanka, where the only intact copies remained. ==================== Thanks for this, James. This is an important point which explains a lot, and, in the process, gives increased weight (in my mind) to the commentaries. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28345 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Dear James, This means a lot to me, it reminds me of a similar sutta M III, 131, on the Auspicious (Bhaddekarattasutta) : "The past should not be followed after, the future not desired, What is past is got rid of and the fuuture has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there, of a present thing, knowing that it is immovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it." The note: realising that it is impermanent and so on. Unshakable by attachment. This reminds me of the present moment, to develop understanding of the present moment. Nina. op 26-12-2003 19:50 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > [The Blessed One:] > "They do not sorrow over the past, > Nor do they hanker for the future. > They maintain themselves with what is present: > Hence their complexion is so serene. > > "Through hankering for the future, > Through sorrowing over the past, > Fools dry up and wither away > Like a green reed cut down." 28346 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes Dear James, Crossing over the flood: you mention the points of the Co stating the middle way. This last one is a very deep one: even mundane wholesome volitions do not get us out of the cycle. They are a link in the Dependent Origination, the abhisankharas. Nina. op 26-12-2003 19:48 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > (vii) by way of > all unwholesome volitional formations one sinks, by way of all > mundane wholesome volitional formations one gets swept away." 28347 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, S:I expect this thread may take us as long as it takes to go through SN, LOL! And what a great start to SN. Apologies again for not being able to participate as much as I'd like for this month, but I see you've encouraged plenty of other folk;-);-) J: --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Well, either this commentary is wrong or you have > misinterpreted it. Right concentration cannot be practiced at just > any time and especially not during `sluggish and unbalanced' times. > I could quote suttas galore about this but let me just quote from an > expert on the suttas, Bhikkhu Bodhi, who translated the SN of which > we are both so enamored with at the moment: .... S:Ah...just to clarify: being enamored with SN and his great work doesn't mean that I agree with all his personal comments like the following one about 'deliberate attempt...'.After all, again who makes a deliberate attempt etc;-) .... J:>"......Samadhi is > exclusively wholesome one-pointedness, the concentration in a > wholesome state of mind. Even then its range is still narrower: it > does not signify every form of wholesome concentration, but only the > intensified concentration that results from a deliberate attempt to > raise the mind to a higher, more purified level of awareness." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/waytoend.html#ch7 .... S:Compare this quote and note Nina gave on the Vism thread: >.......while reading, we do not have to stop reading while considering in between different cittas, feelings, emotions. We talked before on how what has just fallen away can be object of awareness. Cittas roll on exceedingly fast. We read in the "KIndred Sayings"(V, 143, on the Stations of Mindfulness, ChI, §4, Sala that the Buddha spoke about the four Applications of Mindfulness: The Co has a note to one-pointed: This is what happens. When awareness and right understanding arise, there is one-pointedness (momentary) on the object of awareness, and just for a moment (in between talking, in between reading!) there is calm, because there is kusala citta with understanding arising in between all those akusala moments of being attached, conceited, angry, etc. ..... J:> Right concentration only occurs during a wholesome state of mind, > equanimity like I stated previously, and when there is a deliberate > attempt to raise the mind to a higher and more purified level of > awareness. This cannot be done while grocery shopping, brushing your > teeth, or any other mundane activity, it must be done during formal > sitting meditation. Really, this is just so basic to Buddhism I > don't know why we keep going over it. .... S:;-) I agree, not something to be ‘done’ at anytime. .... <...> J:> James: You are contradicting yourself, equanimity and pleasant > feeling cannot arise together. When there is any pleasant feeling, > then there is no more equanimity. True, the first two jhanas contain > pleasant feeling but that must be overcome, abandoned, to move to the > higher, last two jhanas. If one doesn't want to practice jhana > meditation, then there won't ever be any pleasant feeling, only > equanimity. .... S:It’s hard for me to add anymore on this without quoting Abhidhamma to show that equanimity arises with ALL wholesome (rather beautiful) cittas and furthermore that wholesome states arise with EITHER pleasant or neutral feeling. For example, at a moment of giving, there may well be pleasant feeling and we can see that the pleasant feeling with generosity is different from the pleasant feeling with attachment. At truly wholesome moments, there is equanimity or evenmindedness as well - no restlessnes, excitement or clinging. The pleasant feeling and joy that arise with the first two jhanas are also sobhana (beautiful) states accompanying the sobhana jhana cittas on account of the object experienced, even though they don’t arise with higher jhanas. As you rightly say, all states have to be known as they are - as impermanent and dukkha and also anatta. I’m afraid I’ll have to leave others to add more details if this doesn’t satisfy. It also was discussed in Nina's anapanasati thread. .... J:>Again I will quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi: <...> ... S:Sorry, but I didn’t agree with the quote you gave about directing mindfulness, noting and insight. If course, as Ken O reminds me, I’m in the dinosaur category on this;-) He’ll elaborate if you like, I know. .... J:> This is the type of meditation (vipassana) I practice because it is > what my meditation teacher taught me and it is a less `dangerous' > type. Jhana meditation can have some odd side effects and clinging > to blissful states if practiced without the constant supervision of > an experienced teacher (Gosh, I hope Jeff isn't reading this! ;-) ... S:He may join in;-) Unless there is any clear and developed right understanding at the level of satipathana or samatha bhavana, we cannot call either kind vipassana or jhana meditation and any wrong view of self or attachment to results always brings potentially ‘dangerous’ results imho. I think it’s only too easy to underestimate the dangers of any misguided practice. None of this is intended personally to either you or Jeff. .... J:> Regardless, Sarah, as I am understanding you, you believe that one > can practice right concentration during everyday life as long as it > is accompanied by pleasant feeling and joy. How is that supposed to > happen? Win the lottery everyday? LOL! (just kidding). ..... S:That might help my concentration, LOL! Quite honestly, James, I have no interest or concern to ‘practice right concentration during everyday life’. For me, such a concern would merely be a mark of strong clinging. Similarly, of course we all like having pleasant feeling and joy, but the wishing for these states and the dismay when they prove to be so fleeting are the very reason we’re discussing here. There’s a big difference between wholesome states arising naturally by the right conditions and trying and craving to make these happen. .... J:>The type of > pleasant feeling and joy that you are describing from the texts is a > very specialized type and isn't the same as the pleasure of eating > your favorite ice cream or something. .... S:Whew! Agreed! .... J:> James: You misunderstood what I wrote. What I wrote had nothing to > do with the degree of concentration during pleasant feeling or > otherwise, it was just an illustration to show that right > concentration cannot arise during unwholesome mind states and that > such unwholesome mind states are the standard of everyday life. > (Sarah, the thing about my landlady was a joke! My landlady never > stopped receiving metta from me. An argument doesn't mean I give > less metta. I argue with you all the time and I still have metta for > you! ;-))…and, BTW, it isn't automatically right concentration). ... S:Agreed with the first part! Different moments with regard for the metta. Changing mind-states all the time. When there is metta, the concentration is always wholesome too, even if there’s no bhavana - samatha or satipatthana. .... J:> James: The Buddha spoke often of working diligently. Getting to > Nibbana isn't a tea party! ;-) Again, you have an odd idea of non- > self that arises from the fact that you don't truly know non-self. > Did the Buddha realize anatta before he was enlightened? To my > understanding he did not. He thought he had a self and he strived > diligently all the way up to the end. It isn't wisdom to pretend to > be like a Buddha or to know what a Buddha knows. It is wisdom to > know what you don't know and work to know more. .... S:;-) Sorry if it sounded like I was pretending to be like a Buddha, LOL. A gradual path, a gradual development of right understanding and a gradual appreciation and understanding of realities as not self. You wrote very nicely about anatta in your post to Starkid Sandy. Just hearing and considering a little is a start and this 11 year old student is indeed fortunate to hear a little now. .... J:> James: I am, James Mitchell. Now you think I don't exist? I have > some student loan companies I wish I could convince of that!! ;-) .... S:;-) This would be a good one for KenH to take up if he finds the baton;-) This is the point, however much we talk about anatta, there is still the idea of ‘I am James’ or Sarah to work hard or focus or be diligent. Metta, Sarah ====== 28348 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Hi James, I’ll just respond to the Vism definition of equanimity as I think I’ve responded to the other points just now. I actually appreciated this post (all trimmed) very much, because it really helped me consider more about equanimity, pleasant feeling and so on. --- buddhatrue wrote: > I agree with the general idea that Nina conveys in her book about > equanimity (except it being a cetasika). If find the metaphor from > the Vism quite useless,... .... Let me add a little more which may or may not help. Again, I’ll ask someone else to pick up the baton if not. Vism X1V, 153 “Specific neutrality (tatra - majjhattataa - lit. ‘neutrality in regard thereto’) is neutrality (majjhattataa) in regard to those states [of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants arisen in association with it]. {S: remember the middle (majjhima) path - sati and panna all all wholesome states are accompanied by equanimity and detachment towards their objects - no clinging or aversion. Without these, there can be no crossing the floods}. “It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly.” Atthasalini (Expositor p176): “’Equanimity’ (or balance of mind)* is neutrality regarding various states. It has the characteristic of carrying on consciousness and mental properties equally, the function of checking deficiency and excess, or of cutting off partisanship; it has the manifestation of neutrality. by virtue of its indifference regarding consciousness and mental properties it should be regarded as a charioteer who treats with impartiality the well-trained horses he is driving.” * tatra-majjhattataa is lit. ‘there-middleness’. **** This will come up again in the Vism thread. Now we’re on rupa khandha. With patience and encouragement to Larry and Nina, we’ll get to sankhara khandha and all mental states -- which weren’t discussed under vedana and sanna khandha -- will come up for analysis;-) Good points. I’m sure if you ask KenO or RobM, for example, they’ll glad ly indicate texts or charts about the arising of equanimity, joy and so on. Vism 1V, 156f also gives details on various uses of equanimity (tatramajjhattataa) “Equanimity is of ten kinds; six factored equanimity, equanimity as a divine abiding, equanimity as an enlightenment factor, equanimity of energy, equanimity about formations, equanimity as a feeling, equanimity about insight, equanimity as a specific neutrality, equanimity of jhana, and equanimity of purification.’ Plenty of detail and plenty of scope for misunderstanding on usage - quite possible here. Also see U.P. under ‘equanimity’ and/or ‘upekkha’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ==== 28349 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, Thanks for getting back on our discussion;-) --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote:> > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > moment-to-moment mindfulness, as I use the term is attentive awareness > of every activity, no mstter how trivial, as in the Satipatthana Sutta > MN 10 .... S:I would like to suggest that it is not awareness ‘of every activity’, but awareness ‘during/whilst undertaking every (or any) activity’. The objects of awareness are those included in the 4 satipatthanas, i.e the 5 khandhas or all namas and rupas, but not concepts or activities. ..... J:> 3. Awareness with Clear Comprehension > > And further, monks, an aspirant, in going forward and back, applies > clear comprehension; in looking straight on and looking away, one > applies clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, one applies > clear comprehension; in wearing robes and carrying the bowl, one > applies clear comprehension; in eating, drinking, chewing and > savoring, one applies clear comprehension; in walking, in standing, in > sitting, in falling asleep, in waking, in speaking and in keeping > silence, one applies clear comprehension. > > Thus one lives contemplating the body in the body... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html > %%%%%%%% .... S: At these times, i.e in daily life, whatever the activity, sati sampajanna (sati and panna) can and should arise of the various dhammas included in the 4 satipatthanas. I recommend a look under ‘Satipatthana Sutta and Commentaries in UP which you’re most welcome to comment on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts As I know you’re busy with all your correspondence, I’ll quote one at the end of this post which is relevant. .... > %%%%%%%% Jeff: > Moment-to-moment mindfulness to me means everything, even if aurus and > chakras enter ones awareness domain. > %%%%%%%% .... S: That’s OK, Jeff. But this isn’t satipatthana as described by the Buddha. Of course sati itself arises with all wholesome states of consciousness, but sati of satipatthana can only be aware of a paramattha dhamma (ultimate reality). .... J:> Interesting questions Sarah however you assume there is an unwholesome > bliss or jhana, or absorption. .... S: I think my comments were merely suggesting that pana (wisdom) has to be very refined and developed to really understand and know the distinction between wholesome states and those which can easily masquerade for the same and fool us all the time. Like now, there may be neutral feeling or pleasant feeling. Is it wholesome or unwholesome? Panna has to be so sharp to really know the states following the experiences through the sense doors and this can only be with detachment. The test is always at this moment. Without highly developed panna which knows the distinction between these states, samatha cannot develop, let alone reach high levels of absorption and so on. .... J:>There isn't one, because otherwise it > would not be jhana. .... S: There isn’t unwholesome jhana, but there are unwholesome jhana factors or mental states which are included under jhana condition. Highly developed concentration, bliss and so on are not necessarily wholesome at all. .... J:>If you recall the 4 Noble Truths, suffering > (dukkha) caused be grasping and aversion. The pleasant abiding in the > here and now the Buddha spoke of was jhana. .... S: We need to be careful of the context. Perhaps we can say that ‘sukha vihaara’ refers to pleasant abiding for those accomplished in jhanas (jhana-samapatti). Additionally, for ariyan disciples, with mastery in jhanas, it refers to fruition-attainment (phala samapatti) according to the level of enlightenment attained. “All ariyans attain their own respective fruition” Ud Comy, Enlightenmnet Ch. I wrote more details in this post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24069 .... J:>Therefore one does not > get jhana with grasping and aversion. One gets suffering. ... S: I’d go further and suggest ‘one’ doesn’t ‘get’ it at all. Even the experiencing of jhana states is anatta. I hope we continue our discussion, even with long intervals is fine. I appreciate your reflections and comments. Metta, Sarah ===== *Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the object of a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities (including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas’ section and the mind object’ section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma’; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness’ Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks: 'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling. Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations; and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally ... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 28350 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Nina Please dont bother with me, pse continue with your study on latent tendency bc I have a hunch that it is a very impt piece of literary work for Abdhidhamma and it is seldom being explore and not translated probably due to its technicality. I have a hunch that Yamaka is crucial in understanding how moha works subtlely in the background together with latent tendency esp in masking understanding of anatta. kind regards Ken O 28351 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: [Pali] profitable craving Dear Nina, Thank you for posting this useful detail. Always appreciated;-) --- nina van gorkom wrote: > I looked again at Co Netti which I could not read long ago, but now I > can > read it. It is very good. > Here is frwd what I wrote about this subject: <...> > But I was thinking more about craving that is profitable: Netti: 87 and > its > Co. > Netti (The Guide, transl by Ven. Nyanamoli) states: of > two kinds: profitable and unprofitable (cf. Pe 97). While the > unprofitable > goes with the roundabout, the profitable kind is craving for abandoning > (pahaana), which goes with dispersal (apacayagaaminii, (D III, 216).> .... In simple terms, what I understand is that of course craving is always unwholesome, but here again a shorthand is used to be understood according to conditions. As you explain, craving can be a condition for wholesome states and so on by pakatupanissaya paccaya. .... > In the Abhidhamma, the Patthana, it is explained under natural strong > dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya, that kusala can condition > kusala, but also that akusala can condition kusala. Because of aversion > towards akusala vipaaka or attachment to kusala vipaaka one may perform > good > deeds. One may regret the akusala one performed and to counteract it one > performs kusala. We read (Pa.t.thaana, Faultless Triplet VII, > Investigation > Ch, Conditions, Positive, § 423, V): > fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhaana, develops insight, > develops > Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it.> > Thus, tanhaa is lobha cetasika, it is akusala, but, it can be a > condition > for attaining arahatship, and as such it can be called profitable. In > order > to attain arahatship it must be object of insight. .... It is only referred to as profitable as a shorthand for conditioning wholesome states. “The way in which craving, clinging, etc function as conditions may be explained as is appropriate for each case, according to whether (the conditioned states) are conascent with them or not. Some factors are a condition as predominance condition, some as kamma condition, some as nutriment condition, some as faculty condition, some as jhana condition, and some as path condition - this distinction should be recognized. This is the entry by way of dependent origination.” [Method of Exegetical Treatises (pakara.nanayena) as quoted by B.Bodhi.] If there are any points for further clarification, perhaps we can add them to our list for Bkk discussions;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 28352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta, Co info. Hi James just some more info from the Co. Key words: the holy life: brahmacaariya: development of the eightfold Path. Meditation subject, kammathaana: stands for med. of calm (samatha) and for vipassana, satipatthana. derived materiality (upada rupa): refers here to all material phenomena of the body, except the four great elements (earth, etc., see thread with Larry). op 27-12-2003 05:30 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: "Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peaceful, leading the holy life, Eating but a single meal a day: Why is their complexion so serene?* Co info: Peaceful (santaana.m): those who have eradicated all defilements. Or, the wise person (pandita), who is called a worthy person (sappurisa, also used for the ariyan), who has subdued the defilements. Holy life: the person who practises the most refined dhamma, the holy life of the Path (magga brahmacaariyaa). . Co: the deva who asks is an earthbound deva (lowest class). Text co: < The persons in the forest had returned from their almsround, and after they had eaten, they entered the forest and applied themselves to the meditation subject of the charactyeristics [N: the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, anattaa]. The meditation that is usual, vipassana. They sat down already at the place where they were used to rest during night and day. When these monks were sitting with this meditation, one-pointedness (ekaggata cetasikas), the means of purification, arose. > My PTS note renders the Co, saying that distractions were overcome. The text:< When the citta was pure, also the blood became pure and also the derived materiality that originates in citta was purified. [N: some materiality is produced by kamma, some by citta, some by heat, some by food]. > Sutta: [The Blessed One:] "They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future. They maintain themselves with what is present: Hence their complexion is so serene. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." Co info: The co gives examples of clinging to wealth, nice food, to the requisites of bhikkhus. They may notice that their teachers receive these in abundance (given by King Dhammika), but these monks do not follow after what is sorrowful. They do not cling to the future, they are not after all these requisites which they have not yet received. The present: they just take care of themselves by whatever requisite they receive. Before this passage it was alo explained that they were content with any resting place, the root of trees, etc. "Through hankering for the future, Through sorrowing over the past, Fools dry up and wither away Like a green reed cut down." The Co: Nina. P.S. I gladly leave discussions and elaborations about the Co to others. From time to time I just like to give some info. Have to get on with Larry's thread and Latent tendencies. 28353 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi Howard, op 24-12-2003 19:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: quotes Larry: >> Does this mean >>> masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of >>> predominance condition? > > you wrote: > >> N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or >> masculinity is there. > However, in a previous reply to me you wrote: >> N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of >> rupas. > >H: Now, when I said "from time to time," I meant not in every mindstate. > I'm not clear on what you are saying with regard to this. Are you saying that > in every process of states it occurs, but not in each state? Nina: It does not arise in every group of rupas, only in those groups of rupa which are produced by kamma, the decads. Thus not by citta, temperature or nutrition. Kamma keeps on producing these groups throughout life. I am not speaking at all about mind-states, cittas. Here we are just speaking about groups of rupa which arise and fall away all the time. Nina. 28354 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:46am Subject: SN1:35 Faultfinders (was SN-Devatasamyutta) Hi James, Christine, Dan & All, > Comments? Perhaps someone else would like to post a sutta from the > Devatasamyutta which also reveals the personality/interest of the > devas in contrast to the deep wisdom of the Buddha? .... I’m out of time and doubt I’ll be able to continue the thread, but we started discussing 1:35 before (Faultfinders) and I’d be interested in any further discussion or comments along the lines you suggest. one devata: “If one shows oneself in one way While actually being otherwise, What one enjoys is obtained by theft Like the gains of a cheating gambler.” “One should speak as one would act; Don’t speak as one wouldn’t act The wise clearly discern the person Who does not practise what he preaches.” > "[The Blessed One:] > Not by mere speech nor solely by listening > Can one advance on this firm path of practice > By which the wise ones, the meditators, > Are released from the bondage of Mara. > > Truly, the wise do not pretend, > For they have understood the way of the world. > By final knowledge the wise are quenched: > They have crossed over attachment to the world." .... It continues to discuss transgressions and forgiveness. I appreciated Christine’s comments to Ken H (and also hope you feel better KenH - don’t give yourself a hard time over the batons either and pls take care of your eyes;-) C: >Buddhists aren't immune to having 'expectations' and overindulging, or to the awareness of another year passing and the world being a bit further 'down the gurgler'. I wonder why we always expect it to improve - clearly we don't learn from experience. Just the same old greed, hate and delusion in all their fascinating and well-disguised permutations and combinations.< This also makes me think about Christine’s ‘noticeable difference’ thread with the Buddha’s reminders about transgressions and the Tathagata’s great compassion and wisdom in contrast to the ‘faultfinders’. Look forward to any feedback linking these themes. No time to look at the notes now. If anyone finds anything useful, pls add. Thx everyone for the great posts and detail. Plenty for wise reflection. Metta, Sarah p.s Dan, you made good points on the ‘noticeable’ thread. This would certainly be noticeable, but would everyone be able to appreciate the wisdom?? Dan:>"even if bandits were to sever you savagely limb by limb with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to mind of hate towards them would not be carrying out my teaching." (Mn 21) Of course there are other suttas which clearly indicate how shocked people were when they were told a drunkard and so on had become enlightened. To repeat an old favourite of mine again: Migasala Sutta -AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl). B.Bodhi gives the title ‘Don’t Judge Others!’(p.159. Numerical Discourses). ***** Migasala comes to see Ananda. She explains that the Buddha said that both her father, Purana, and her uncle, Isidatta reached the same level of enlightenment. She cannot understand it because she says her father lived ‘the godly life, dwelling apart, abstaining from common, carnal things’. Isidatta, on the other hand ‘did not live the godly life but rejoiced with a wife’. When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that ‘herein Isidatta fares not Purana’s way but another’s.’ He also urges Ananda not to be a ‘measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.’ In this sutta the Buddha also gives examples of two people who might be of similar nature and judged equally by the ‘measurer of persons’. In fact there may be conditions for one of those judged to hear and understand the Teachings and who after death ‘fares to excellence’. He explains again that the harm is to the ‘measurer’... *********** 28355 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert and Kom (since Sarah is busy while Nina is occupied) and also Ken H I would like to clarify, A Sujin in the Survery of ParamathaDhamma Chapter 3 "Vipaka-citta does not accumulate latent tendencies in continuation because each vipaka-citta arises from accumulated kusala-kamma or akusala-kamma as paccaya. After the vipaka-citta has arisen and fallen away, it does not cause any other vipaka to arise." Chapter 5 "Understanding the dhamma would remind us that the javana-vithi-citta that arises when we see, hear, or smell etc. are kusala or akusala that arise and fall away, accumulating its own continuum and latent tendencies." I do think the paragraph on chapter 5 is inconsistent with what she said on chapter 3. By the way I am not here to pinpoint mistake, I here to clarify what she meant by para 5. My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. I may have more qns later on as now I am reading this particular intersting material. kind regards Ken O 28356 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Htoo Naing and all, Please accept my apologies. My previous message was very badly worded. What was meant to be 'spirited debate' has turned out brash and offensive. I will be more careful in future. Kind regards, Ken H 28357 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies DearKen, Could you give me the exact reference for this. I could not find either paragraph in the copy I helped to edit. Thanks robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Robert and Kom (since Sarah is busy while Nina is occupied) and > also Ken H > > I would like to clarify, > > A Sujin in the Survery of ParamathaDhamma > Chapter 3 > "Vipaka-citta does not accumulate latent tendencies in continuation > because each vipaka-citta arises from accumulated kusala-kamma or > akusala-kamma as paccaya. After the vipaka-citta has arisen and > fallen away, it does not cause any other vipaka to arise." > > Chapter 5 > "Understanding the dhamma would remind us that the javana-vithi- citta > that arises when we see, hear, or smell etc. are kusala or akusala > that arise and fall away, accumulating its own continuum and latent > tendencies." > > I do think the paragraph on chapter 5 is inconsistent with what she > said on chapter 3. By the way I am not here to pinpoint mistake, I > here to clarify what she meant by para 5. > > My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > > I may have more qns later on as now I am reading this particular > intersting material. > > > > kind regards > Ken O > > > 28358 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert http://www.triplegem.net/ this version is from this website rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > DearKen, > Could you give me the exact reference for this. I could not find > either paragraph in the copy I helped to edit. > Thanks > robert 28359 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert Sorry should be a summary of ParamatthaDhamma rgds Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > http://www.triplegem.net/ > > this version is from this website > > rgds > Ken O > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > DearKen, > > Could you give me the exact reference for this. I could not find > > either paragraph in the copy I helped to edit. > > Thanks > > robert 28360 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Sorry Ken, I still can't find it. Do you have an url you can post. rob In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > Sorry should be a summary of ParamatthaDhamma > > rgds > Ken O > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > wrote: > > Hi Robert > > > > http://www.triplegem.net/ > > > > this version is from this website > > > 28361 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi KenO, I think it would be better if you use the translation A.Sujin has approved throughout (by Nina) and which is in the process of being printed by the Foundation now. It can be found at this link on RobK’s website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm I’m sure Rob (and Nina) will be only too happy to look at any queeries you have. Pls let us know if it still reads like an inconsistency to you in the chapters you mentioned. Metta, Sarah p.s I hope we can send you, and anyone else who is interested, a hard copy fairly soon! ============ 28362 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert go to the website again it is under the Section Dhamma then you will see there is link Abhidhamma, then choose Paramatthadhamma, Summary of. There is no url bc the website is make in such a way. kind regards Ken O P.S> sorry all for wasting you bandwidth --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Sorry Ken, > I still can't find it. Do you have an url you can post. > rob > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > wrote: 28363 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken, Ok I am still having trouble so I try to answer anyway. Consider Sense-door process and mind-door process of cittas: From Realities and Concepts (sujin boriharnwanaket) * When a sense object, which is rupa, impinges on one of the sensedoors, it is experienced by several cittas arising in a sense- door process. Counting from the "past bhavanga", there are seventeen moments of citta if the sense-door process of cittas runs its full course. Rupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta, and thus it falls away when that process is over. The seventeen moments of citta are as follows: 1. atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga). 2. bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga). 3. bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga), the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense-door. 4. five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pancadvaravajjana-citta), which is a kiriyacitta. 5. sense-cognition (dvi-pancavinnana, seeing-consciousness, etc.), which is vipakacitta. 6. receiving-consciousness (sampaticchana-citta), which is vipakacitta. 7. investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) which is vipakacitta. 8. determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) which is kiriyacitta. 9-15. seven javana-cittas ("impulsion", kusala citta or akusala citta in the case of non-arahats). 16. registering-consciousness (tadarammana-citta) which may or may not arise, and which is vipaka citta. 17. registering-consciousness. After a sense object has been experienced through a sense-door it is experienced through the mind-door, and then that object has just fallen away** == So in these process the javana cittas (9-15) are not vipaka nor is votthapana citta nor pancadvaravajjana-citta. hope that clarifies. Please ask if more details are needed. Robert In a In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > go to the website again > it is under the Section Dhamma then you will see there is link > Abhidhamma, then choose Paramatthadhamma, Summary of. There is no url > bc the website is make in such a way. > > kind regards > Ken O > > P.S> sorry all for wasting you bandwidth > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Sorry Ken, > > I still can't find it. Do you have an url you can post. > > rob > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > > wrote: 28364 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/27/03 4:45:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 24-12-2003 19:29 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > quotes Larry: > >>Does this mean > >>>masculinity or femininity predominates at any given moment because of > >>>predominance condition? > > > >you wrote: > > > >>N: I do not think predominates, but only one faculty, either femininity or > >>masculinity is there. > >However, in a previous reply to me you wrote: > > >>N: It does not arise from time to time but all the time, in a group of > >>rupas. > > > >H: Now, when I said "from time to time," I meant not in every mindstate. > >I'm not clear on what you are saying with regard to this. Are you saying > that > >in every process of states it occurs, but not in each state? > Nina: It does not arise in every group of rupas, only in those groups of > rupa which are produced by kamma, the decads. Thus not by citta, temperature > or nutrition. Kamma keeps on producing these groups throughout life. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see - thank you. It does make sense to me that male/female sexuality be kamma vipaka. --------------------------------------------------------- > I am not speaking at all about mind-states, cittas. Here we are just > speaking about groups of rupa which arise and fall away all the time. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, okay. I forget at times that while Abhidhamma never allows for consciousness to arise without an object, it does allow for rupas to arise without being the arammana for an act of consciousness. Abhidhamma allows for a harder dualistic separation between nama and rupa than I accept. So it is! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ============================== BTW, Nina, while we are talking about objects of consciousness (or at least *I* was ;-), I would appreciate it if you could write a word or two about the possible objects of bhavangacittas. In ADL I think I understood you to say at one point that their objects come through none of the six sense doors, which perplexed me, because I coudn't imagine what sort of object that might be. I probably misunderstood what you wrote there. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28365 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah, S:I expect this thread may take us as long as it takes to go through SN, LOL! And what a great start to SN. Apologies again for not being able to participate as much as I'd like for this month, but I see you've encouraged plenty of other folk;-);-) James: Hmmm…don't know if it will last that long, but could be!;-). Yes, the discussion is going quite nice, but I wanted to turn away for a moment to continue this lovely banter with you. (For someone who can't participate as much, you sure churn out the posts! ;-) S:Ah...just to clarify: being enamored with SN and his great work doesn't mean that I agree with all his personal comments like the following one about 'deliberate attempt...'.After all, again who makes a deliberate attempt etc;-) James: Well, if B. Bodhi can't change your mind, I'm sure that I won't be able to either! ;-) Actually, my goal isn't to change your mind, I just want you to see my perspective; and for me to see your perspective. I think I have gotten much closer to understanding where you are coming from with this post. S:Compare this quote and note Nina gave on the Vism thread: >.......while reading, we do not have to stop reading while considering in between different cittas, feelings, emotions. We talked before on how what has just fallen away can be object of awareness. Cittas roll on exceedingly fast. We read in the "KIndred Sayings"(V, 143, on the Stations of Mindfulness, ChI, §4, Sala that the Buddha spoke about the four Applications of Mindfulness: The Co has a note to one-pointed: This is what happens. When awareness and right understanding arise, there is one-pointedness (momentary) on the object of awareness, and just for a moment (in between talking, in between reading!) there is calm, because there is kusala citta with understanding arising in between all those akusala moments of being attached, conceited, angry, etc. James: Okay, I think I understand more your position. First, from my perspective, I want you to realize that I don't find this very persuasive. Of all the suttas on meditation practice, to pick one word, and then one definition of that one word from a commentary, to form a whole philosophy of practice contrary to meditation practice, flies in the face of common sense. Second, even these moments of one- pointedness, `mini-meditations', would still need to occur by intent, in my estimation, for them to be at all effective. Are they supposed to just occur spontaneously? From my understanding, you believe that panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise reflection on the suttas, good companions, etc, is supposed to create the conditions for these mini- meditations to spontaneously occur. That is really leaving things to chance don't you think? It's like trying to shoot a target with a blindfold on. In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will take care of itself. Of course sitting with the desire to become wise will get a person absolutely nowhere, and that is not what I do. Even the Buddha, before he sat underneath that Bodhi tree, and swore to himself that he would find the answer to what he was seeking or he would die trying, had set up the right conditions. I don't think that it is important to focus on the fact that he really wanted the answer, it is more important to focus on that he was willing to die…and die he did. He died so that he could live, live without suffering. We all have to be willing to die before we die, in order to truly live. (Sorry for sounding like some sort of fortune cookie! LOL) S:He may join in;-) Unless there is any clear and developed right understanding at the level of satipathana or samatha bhavana, we cannot call either kind vipassana or jhana meditation and any wrong view of self or attachment to results always brings potentially `dangerous' results imho. I think it's only too easy to underestimate the dangers of any misguided practice. None of this is intended personally to either you or Jeff. James: Oh, I completely agree! But realize that meditation, like developing right understanding, is a gradual process. When people first begin to meditate they may have all kinds of lofty ideas of becoming wise and enlightened. Eventually, those ideas will go away or the meditator will become bored with the practice and stop, because it doesn't bring them what they expected. Those who continue the practice do so because, little by little, it brings them peace and wisdom. Or, if they are like me, they have faith in what the Buddha taught, so they just do it. Becoming enlightened isn't so important anymore, but it isn't ruled out as a possiblity. As the practice continues even more, they will lose more and more of their self identification. Eventually, they will reach a critical point, where they will either have to be willing to die, their selfhood, or stop. Sarah, we all have wrong view of self, it isn't possible to completely get rid of that before beginning meditation. But the practice, if done correctly, will get rid of it on its own. It is important to have a good teacher at some point, or read and educate yourself about the process, before beginning. I also don't go in for any of those fancy methods of meditation; just plain ole vanilla flavored vipassana is good enough for me. ;-) S:That might help my concentration, LOL! Quite honestly, James, I have no interest or concern to `practice right concentration during everyday life'. For me, such a concern would merely be a mark of strong clinging. Similarly, of course we all like having pleasant feeling and joy, but the wishing for these states and the dismay when they prove to be so fleeting are the very reason we're discussing here. There's a big difference between wholesome states arising naturally by the right conditions and trying and craving to make these happen. James: Right, but doing nothing will result in just that: Nothing! The most we can do is set up the right conditions, by following the Eightfold Path in our lives, and let the rest take care of itself. There is no trying or craving, there is just faith in the Triple Gem. S:;-) Sorry if it sounded like I was pretending to be like a Buddha, LOL. A gradual path, a gradual development of right understanding and a gradual appreciation and understanding of realities as not self. You wrote very nicely about anatta in your post to Starkid Sandy. Just hearing and considering a little is a start and this 11 year old student is indeed fortunate to hear a little now. James: Meditation is a gradual path. Believe me, I have been practicing for years, it is very gradual! ;-) And I haven't progressed as smoothly or as nicely as others but I believe I have a lot of bad, accumulated karma; oh well, such is life. Yes, I hope I planted a seed in Sandy which may grow into faith in the Triple Gem one day, but that will be up to Sandy. S:;-) This would be a good one for KenH to take up if he finds the baton;-)This is the point, however much we talk about anatta, there is still the idea of `I am James' or Sarah to work hard or focus or be diligent. James: Gosh, everyone is passing this baton around and I don't have anyone to take my baton! LOL! See, bad karma. ;-) There is no self, but there is the doing. No doer, only doing. Metta, James 28366 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, James - In a message dated 12/27/03 10:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: Okay, I think I understand more your position. First, from my > perspective, I want you to realize that I don't find this very > persuasive. Of all the suttas on meditation practice, to pick one > word, and then one definition of that one word from a commentary, to > form a whole philosophy of practice contrary to meditation practice, > flies in the face of common sense. Second, even these moments of one- > pointedness, `mini-meditations', would still need to occur by intent, > in my estimation, for them to be at all effective. Are they supposed > to just occur spontaneously? From my understanding, you believe that > panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise reflection on the suttas, good > companions, etc, is supposed to create the conditions for these mini- > meditations to spontaneously occur. That is really leaving things to > chance don't you think? It's like trying to shoot a target with a > blindfold on. > > In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to > become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to > have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will > take care of itself. Of course sitting with the desire to become > wise will get a person absolutely nowhere, and that is not what I > do. Even the Buddha, before he sat underneath that Bodhi tree, and > swore to himself that he would find the answer to what he was seeking > or he would die trying, had set up the right conditions. I don't > think that it is important to focus on the fact that he really wanted > the answer, it is more important to focus on that he was willing to > die…and die he did. He died so that he could live, live without > suffering. We all have to be willing to die before we die, in order > to truly live. (Sorry for sounding like some sort of fortune cookie! > LOL) > =============================== I think the foregoing is wonderful, James. I particularly like your second paragraph in which you sound, not so much like a fortune cookie, but much more like one Jesus of Nazareth! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28367 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert I will rethink on the javana vithi citta again here is another qn related to that, Nina in her Abdhidhamma in Daily Life http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-03.htm states "Every time we experience an unpleasant. object through one of the five senses, there is akusala vipaka Every time we experience a pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka." When an object is pleasant object or unpleasants object can only be experience during the javana process and not at any beforehand cittas of the process, A Sujin quoted the Atthasalini whereby the king(javana) "partake" the object impinging on the dvara. So a vipaka citta when accept an object does not known whether this object is pleasant or unpleasant object. In other words, an object is seen by the eye but it is not known pleasant or unpleasant until javana process. In addition, vipaka is always indifference be it kusala or akusala vipaka. this process of kowning a vipaka is kusala or akusala will only be known after the javana process of the sense door. Comments please kind regards Ken O 28368 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Robert Hmm my rethink is very fast, when I listen to my music, I realise what it is meant by the javana vithi citta of the five sense door. Thanks for reminding me that javana is of a different jati, I was confused just now. However my second qns on vipaka plesant and unpleasant awaits your kind comments. kind rgds Ken O 28369 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James J: Are they supposed to just occur spontaneously? From my understanding, you believe that panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise reflection on the suttas, good companions, etc, is supposed to create the conditions for these mini- meditations to spontaneously occur. That is really leaving things to chance don't you think? It's like trying to shoot a target with a blindfold on. k: Yes they occur spontaneously bc it is the way things are. Just like good deeds reap good fruits. As long as there is sati + panna, we leave the rest to chances, as enlightment cannot be forced or control, isn't this also a chance ;-) J: In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to > become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to > have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will > take care of itself. k: When you concentrate, are you staying in place on one kasina, as the sutta on "Crossing over the Flood", those who stayed sinks. When Buddha say "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.", means going with the flow, which means the discerning the flow of cittas and not damming the flow of cittas with concentration of a kasina. kind regards Ken O p.s. - isn't "the rest will take care of itself" also meant taking chances :) cheers 28370 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Ken O, I think a clarification of the dhamma taught by anybody is a fantastic idea. Because the Buddha is a samma-sambuddha, he taught us the realities that he had penetrated by panna, the teachings (reflecting the truths) do not conflict. I was reminded that if we think the teachings conflict, either we don't understand it yet, or whoever is teaching it is not teaching what the Buddha had taught. > My understanding is that Vipaka citta are kamma produced hence there > is no way we can decide it is kusala or aksuala for its process of 17 > moments of Vipaka cittas. One can only make a difference in the mind > door, where whereby only kusala citta or akusala cittas could arise > to affect the latent tendecies and accumulations for future vipaka > cittas. This means Chapter 5 is not correct bc vipaka cittas are > vithi citta but not javana-vithi-citta and they cannot accumulate > latent tendecies as explain in Chapter 3. > Do you know that the sense door process comprises of vipaka, kiriya, and kusala/akusala? The sense door process is not purely vipaka, it has: 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Vinanana (1 moment - vipaka) 3) Sampatichanna (1 moment - vipaka) 4) Santirana (1 moment - vipaka) 5) Votappana (1 moment - kiriya) 6) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 7) Tatalampana (2 moments - vipaka) Although undiscernable by us, the kusala/akusala vipaka cittas are differentiated by the Abhidhamma. There are 5 possible pairs of the sense door vipaka (in position 2 above): one set kusala vipaka, and the other akusala vipaka. I think they can be differentiated by their characteristics, with highly refined panna. What she meant about the accumulation in the sense door is at position 6 (javana), where tendencies are accumulated, even in the sense door. In the mind door, the process is less complicated (even if it is way more prevalent than the sense doors) 1) Avajjana (1 moment - kiriya) 2) Javana (7 moments, kusala or akusala in non-arahats) 3) Tatalampanna (2 moments - vipaka) The tendencies are accumulated only in the position 2 here as well. kom 28371 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Ken (and James) - In a message dated 12/27/03 11:15:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi James > > J: Are they supposed to just occur spontaneously? From my > understanding, you believe that panna (wisdom), conditioned by wise > reflection on the suttas, good companions, etc, is supposed to create > the conditions for these mini- meditations to spontaneously occur. > That is really leaving things to chance don't you think? It's like > trying to shoot a target with a blindfold on. > > k: Yes they occur spontaneously bc it is the way things are. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: What do you mean by "spontaneously," Ken? Surely you don't mean "randomly, without cause." ------------------------------------------------ Just> > like good deeds reap good fruits. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay. So here you require a cause for the arising of wisdom. Is the only cause the study of the teachings? And does the study of the teachings occur without volition? ------------------------------------------------ As long as there is sati + panna,> > we leave the rest to chances, as enlightment cannot be forced or > control, isn't this also a chance ;-) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: And why should mindfulness at a high level occur? Randomly, or due to causes and conditions? And does intentional paying of attention play no role in this? ------------------------------------------------ > > > J: In meditation, the intent isn't to become enlightened or even to > >become wise, those things are beyond control, the intent is just to > >have concentration on arising and falling phenomena; the rest will > >take care of itself. > > > k: When you concentrate, are you staying in place on one kasina, as > the sutta on "Crossing over the Flood", those who stayed sinks. > When Buddha say "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place.", means going with the flow, which means the > discerning the flow of cittas and not damming the flow of cittas with > concentration of a kasina. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Are you now presenting kasina practice and samatha bhavana as an example of what the Buddha meant by "sinking?" Are you maintaining that the Buddha cautioned against samatha bhavana and the jhanas? -------------------------------------------------- > > > > kind regards > Ken O > > p.s. - isn't "the rest will take care of itself" also meant taking > chances :) cheers > ========================= With metta., Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28372 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN-Devatasamyutta Hi Christine: viharati: abide with. Vihhara: spending one's time, mode of life (as brahma viharas). I have the Vinaya, but I have always trouble with PTS annotations. Nina. op 27-12-2003 02:07 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: >> Note 384 says Spk: The dwelling is called 'gross' on account of its > object. For he dwelt in the exercise of the divine eye and divine > ear element which take gross objects, namely, the form base and the > sound base. > 28373 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: moha Dear Sarah, This passage is wonderful and helps to clarify the intimate connection between restlessness and moha, and their role in generating the round. I still want to work through the "restlessness" cetasika as it appears in, say, well into an intensive meditation retreat at a time when calm and peaceful lobhamulacittani arise, and how "restlessness" is experienced in sloth-and-torpor moments... Metta, Dan > D:> > I wonder what "darts among" means... > .... > dart = javaapeti.* > > cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): > > ".....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the > aggregates, the meaning of extent in the bases, the meaning of void in the > elements, the meaning of reality in the truths, the meaning of > predominance in the faculties, thus it is `ignorance'. It makes beings > hurry on in all the kinds of generation, destiny, existence, stations of > consciousness, abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths, thus it > is `ignorance'. It hurries on *(javati)* in `woman', `man', etc that are > non-existent (avijjamaana) in the highest sense, it does not hurry on in > the existent aggregates, etc, thus it is `ignorance'. Furthermore it is > ignorance because it conceals the dependent origination and > dependently-originated states which are the [physical] basis and the > object of eye-consciousness and so on." > ***** > > *???? javaapeti = javati + apeti ?????* > > Javati Vedic ju (p. 280) javate intr. to hurry, junati trs. to incite, > urge: to run, hurry, hasten S I.33; J IV.213; Davs V.24; DhsA 265, pp. > juta. > > Apeti (p. 55) [apa + i, cp. Gr. a)/peimi, Lat. abeo, Goth. af-- iddja] to > go away, to disappear D I.180 (upeti pi apeti pi); J I.292; Sn 1143 (= nc > apagacchanti na vijahanti Nd2 66). -- pp. apeta (q. v.). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > > 28374 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Dear Howard, op 27-12-2003 15:52 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see - thank you. It does make sense to me that male/female sexuality > be kamma vipaka. N: I should add for clarity that it is past kamma. Yes, from birth to death. Dhammasangani, Book II, here is the whole list of rupas. for kamma, p. 185, we have to look at: grasped at (upaadi.n.na.m.) That means produced by kamma. Now all this material is worked out in more detail in its Co, the Expositor. >> I am not speaking at all about mind-states, cittas. Here we are just >> speaking about groups of rupa which arise and fall away all the time. >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh, okay. I forget at times that while Abhidhamma never allows for > consciousness to arise without an object, it does allow for rupas to arise > without being the arammana for an act of consciousness. Abhidhamma allows for > a > harder dualistic separation between nama and rupa than I accept. So it is! ;-) N: ;-) ;-) Citta would get very, very tired to have as object all those groups of rupas, 27 different types for each of us, arising in clusters or units of octads, nonads, decads, undecads, duodecads, etc. And consider, not one octad at a time but many, all over the body, countless clusters. Many, many nonads, etc. Citta would have no time for any other object like visible object :-) This is really maddening, would drive citta crazy. LOL. H: BTW, Nina, while we are talking about objects of consciousness (or at > least *I* was ;-), I would appreciate it if you could write a word or two > about the possible objects of bhavangacittas. In ADL I think I understood you > to > say at one point that their objects come through none of the six sense doors, > which perplexed me, because I coudn't imagine what sort of object that might > be. I probably misunderstood what you wrote there. N: Yes, I have kept bhavanga on our pet(p...??) list. I do not forget and have a few thoughts to add to what I wrote in old post. I should add some new thing, otherwise I bore people to death. When I find time after some work on latent tendencies!!! Nina. 28375 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, I like your remark on moha very much, it deludes us all the time, so persistent, it conditions moha arising with akusala citta, so that we take akusala for kusala. What a delusion. But they all work in the background, do not forget selfish desire. Lodewijk (my husband) said the other day: those terrible latent tendencies, how can we get to know them. What can we do about them. It is no bother to me if you ask, on the contrary. You are welcome, and I learn from your remarks! You really consider the Dhamma and I do appreciate this. You know, I reflect a lot on latent tendencies these days and if you ask this is a good condition for me. Nina. op 27-12-2003 10:31 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Nina > > Please dont bother with me, pse continue with your study on latent > tendency bc I have a hunch that it is a very impt piece of literary > work for Abdhidhamma and it is seldom being explore and not > translated probably due to its technicality. I have a hunch that > Yamaka is crucial in understanding how moha works subtlely in the > background together with latent tendency esp in masking understanding > of anatta. 28376 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear Ken O, What is meant: vipakacitta is not an active citta, it does not cause any new accumulation of kusala or akusala. But, the latent tendencies that are dormant in each citta go on and on, are as it were passed on from citta to citta. No exception, thus also when vipakacitta arises and falls away the passing on continues. As to knowing when vipakacitta experienced a pleasant object or not, it may never be known, it passes too quickly. Not even in the following mind-door process. Is it not true that there are so many moments of seeing pleasant visible objects and unpleasant visible objects, but such moments just pass. We do not care, and if the object is strongly unpleasant, we think with aversion usually about a concept of a thing we find ugly. That happens in daily life. Nina. op 27-12-2003 12:38 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > "Vipaka-citta does not accumulate latent tendencies in continuation > because each vipaka-citta arises from accumulated kusala-kamma or > akusala-kamma as paccaya. 28377 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:09am Subject: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/27/03 9:53:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > In ADL I think I understood you to > say at one point that their objects come through none of the six sense > doors, > which perplexed me, because I couldn't imagine what sort of object that > might > be. I probably misunderstood what you wrote there. > ========================== I've been thinking over this matter a bit more, and some musings occur to me. They are not conclusions, but just some thoughts.) Specifically what you wrote in ADL that I was referring to is the following: "Every citta must have an object and thus the bhavanga-citta too has an object. Seeing has what is visible as object; hearing has sound as object, but the bhavanga-citta has an object which is different from the objects presenting themselves through the senses and through the mind-door. " Now, what I have been wondering about is whether the object might not be an *absence*, specifically the absence of all positive sense objects, the absence of all sights, sounds, tastes, odors, feelings, emotions, inclinations, thoughts etc, etc. Whether or not one can say that an absence is or is not known through the mind door I'm not sure. My initial thinking is that yes, it would be through the mind door, but I could be wrong on that, particularly with regard to such a total absence. In any case, what would be interesting about the object of a bhavanga citta being such an absence is that this would lend support to the interpretation of "luminous mind" as bhavanga citta. It EVEN might suggest that the state of the arahant beyond death could be that of a bhavangasota with an extraordinarily heightened level of clarity, so that the state becomes one of an unchanging, pristinely clear awareness of ultimate absence (nibbana) rather like the peace of absolutely dreamless sleep, but with full awareness. I'm not saying I believe ANY of this, Nina. But in thinking about the idea of bhavanga cittas as having an object not coming through any of the sense doors, this scenario occurred to me. With fanciful metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28378 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Dear Jon & Sarah, Thanks for you code ' Dhammanupassana Satipatthana ' , contemplation of mind object. It is quite clear and readily understandable. Htoo Naing ... S: I'd go further and suggest `one' doesn't `get' it at all. Even the experiencing of jhana states is anatta. I hope we continue our discussion, even with long intervals is fine. I appreciate your reflections and comments. Metta, Sarah ===== *Jon The objects of awareness under the Satipatthana Sutta are dhammas (realities), not concepts. The consciousness/mind section refers to the dhamma that is the moment of consciousness. The mind objects/mental objects section refers to the dhammas (realities) that can be the objectof a moment of consciousness, and this in turn means any and all realities(including those covered by the other 3 sections of the sutta). To give an example. At a moment of seeing there is contact between the consciousness that sees and visible object. That visible object is a reality and also, at that precise moment, a mind object (it is the object of seeing consciousness). So the visible object at that moment falls under both the rupas' section and the mind object' section of the 4 satipatthanas. This helps remind us that the 4 sections in the sutta are merely ways of classifying realities and are not in themselves absolutes. Only dhammas (realties) can be the object of satipatthana, because only something that has its own characteristic that is capable of being experienced is considered to be a dhamma'; anything that does not, is not. In the Satipatthana Sutta itself, the 'eligible' mind-objects are described in different ways. One of these ways is as the 5 khandhas (Aggregates), and these 5 khandhas encompass all dhammas (other than Nibbana). I have pasted below the passage from The Way of Mindfulness' Jon Section on Mental Objects 2. The Aggregates "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks:'Thus is material form [rupa]; thus is the arising of material form; and thus is the disappearance of material form. Thus is feeling [vedana]; thus is the arising of feeling; and thus is the disappearance of feeling.Thus is perception [sanna]; thus is the arising of perception; and thus is the disappearance of perception. Thus are the formations [sankhara]; thus is the arising of the formations;and thus is the disappearance of the formations. Thus is consciousness [vinnana]; thus is the arising of consciousness; and thus is the disappearance of consciousness.' Thus he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, internally... and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object inthe mental objects of the five aggregates of clinging." [ends] ********** END QUOTE 28379 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:06am Subject: Re: SN I.1 (1) Crossing the Flood was (Re: [dsg] SN-Introduction Notes) Hi again, all - A drop more: There is the old advice to "make haste slowly." That is similarly paradoxical to neither pushing forward (straining, which leads to being swept away) nor staying in place (halting, which leads to sinking). The idea is mainly that of executing subtle action, I think. It is reminiscent of the Buddha's instructions to keep the lute's strings neither too taut nor too slack. And perhaps that's what's going on in this sutta: a call for middle-way action, avoiding the extremes. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28380 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:40pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Ken H and Dhamma Friends, Thanks for your interest in these posts Ken H. Please see my reply to your points. I hope the matter is clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : After all your brilliant posts explaining the true meaning of satipatthana, you follow up with this parody! A conceptual imitation of satipatthana does nothing but ridicule the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Do you really think that this is just conceptual imitation of Satipatthana? There are many posts coming regarding the practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H Why are you suggesting that the Buddha taught such a practice? Where in the Pali Canon,is it said that mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of dhammas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Did I say ' mindfulness of concepts leads to mindfulness of Dhamma ' ? But mindfulness of all leads to mindfulness of dhamma including concepts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : There are some lines in the Satipatthana-sutta that can be taken this way but, to do so, would be to take them completely out of context with the rest of the Tipitaka. The commentaries hasten to explain that mindfulness of the concept of walking (for example), is not what the Buddha taught. You, yourself, have acknowledged this. But now you would have us believe that mindfulness of concepts does play a part. Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Which concepts do you exactly mean? Please clarify this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > HN: > While he is practising sitting in meditation, he is > being aware of what exactly he is doing and what is > arising at each moment. When he considers that he wants > to stop sitting and wants standing, he knows that he > wants them. Then his mindfulness on breath is shifted to > his body position. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : Why, has he stopped breathing? Who is watching the breathing while there is mindfulness of 'wanting to stand up?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Did I say ' he has stopped breathing' ? I said ' his mindfulness on breath is shifted to his body position '. This means mindfulness is shifted from breath to body position. No one is watching the breathing while mindfulness is on another object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : The same question applies to everything that follows in this surprising post. Who is to say there should be mindfulness of 'having the eyes open?' At that time, where is the mindfulness of walking, of keeping the back straight, of looking ahead, of what the left foot is doing, of what the right foot is doing, of wanting to go to the toilet? In other words: the whole practice is illogical and unworkable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : It is very very logical. It works brilliently. I wrote for a practitioner who is practising seriously like at a retreat. But out of that time, the same principle should be followed. Even when we are driving, mindfulness can arise like '..heard a horn sounding..see a road sign..wanna slow down..wanna look at milet..wanna adjust the speed.. and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > HN: > He wants to put down the glass on the table. He > does that consciously. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken H : If he does, can there be satipatthama at that exact, same, moment? Or is he only concerned with the future? Kind regards, Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : The idea arises ' wanna put down '. That is a Citta with Chandha (wish ). Then Cittaja Rupa followed bending, stretching movement of hand. When he has well practised, he will see that he experiences Vayo. Not bending, stretching which are concept. As he is looking at the very present moment, there is nothing concerned with future. Even he thinks for future, he will notices that thinking is ongoing and so forth. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 28381 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: How To get Through The Samsara ( 11 ) Dear Ken H, It is not a problem. As long as we are discussing, argueing, searching and researching, noting, marking, studying, practising and so on at this forum, we are ciber friends. And we can support each other in Dhamma matter. Without questioning, and answering and discussion, it is hard to judge the value of posts. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing and all, > > Please accept my apologies. My previous message was very > badly worded. What was meant to be 'spirited debate' has > turned out brash and offensive. I will be more careful > in future. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 28382 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:03pm Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders To ensure we are all on the same page :-), I have typed out this interesting sutta to refer to while discussing. metta and peace Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 1 The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) 1. Devataasamyutta 35 (5) Faultfinders On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. Then, when the night had advanced, a number of "faultfinding" devataas, of stunning beauty, illuminating the entire Jeta's Grove, approached the Blessed One and stood in the air. [n.76] Then one devataa, standing in the air, recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "If one shows oneself in one way While actually being otherwise, What one enjoys is obtained by theft Like the gains of a cheating gambler."[n.77] {Another devataa:} "One should speak as one would act; Don't speak as one wouldn't act. The wise clearly discern the person Who does not practise what he preaches." {The Blessed One:} "Not by mere speech nor solely by listening Can one advance on this firm path of practice By which the wise ones, the meditators, Are released from the bondage of Maara." "Truly, the wise do not pretend, For they have understood the way of the world. By final knowledge the wise are quenched: They have crossed over attachment to the world." Then those devataas, having alighted on the earth, prostrated themselves with their heads at the Blessed One's feet and said to the Blessed One. "A transgression overcame us, venerable sir, being so foolish, so stupid, so unskilful that we imagined we could assail the Blessed One. Let the Blessed One pardon us for our transgression seen as such for the sake of restraint in the future." Then the Blessed One displayed a smile. [n.78] Those devataas, finding fault to an even greater extent, then rose up into the air. One devataa recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: "If one does not grant pardon To those who confess transgression, Angry at heart, intent on hate, One strongly harbours enmity." [The Blessed One:] "If there was no transgression, If here there was no going astray, And if enmities were appeased, Then one would be faultless here." [n.79] [A devataa:] "For whom are there no transgressions? For whom is there no going astray? Who has not fallen into confusion? And who is the wise one, ever mindful?" [The Blessed One:] "The Tathaagata, the Enlightened One, Full of compassion for all beings: For him there are no transgressions, For him there is no going astray; He has not fallen into confusion, And he is the wise one, ever mindful. "If one does not grant pardon To those who confess transgression, Angry at heart, intent on hate, One strongly harbours enmity. In that enmity I do not delight, Thus I pardon your transgression. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah 28383 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:20pm Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Dear Group, Has there ever been a Devataa who wasn't 'of stunning beauty', not an ugly one, just a common, everyday attractive one? The suttas wouldn't sound the same, of course ... Why are they of stunning beauty? This lot don't seem to have nice natures, seemingly arrogant, quick tempered, self-centred, judgmental, and calculatingly rude to the Blessed One. If everyone is beautiful, is anyone beautiful? Doesn't beauty only arise out of comparison and opinion? Do Devataa think of each other as beautiful, or is it only we (as a separate species) that consider them beautiful? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's > Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. Then, when the night had advanced, a > number of "faultfinding" devataas, of stunning beauty, illuminating > the entire Jeta's Grove, approached the Blessed One and stood in the > air. [n.76] 28384 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's tree and a little hint ..Continuation of Pannatta Dear Carl, Thanks for your question and your interest in Pannatta. Here is my reply to your letter. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl.. Htoo Naing am I correct in thinking thusly: Vision, seeing the tree, is a mental construct to the full extent that it is impossible to view the "outside world" as the outside world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : When you say ' see a tree ', there have been billions and billions of Cittas have happened. In a series of Vithi Cittas ( conscious mind ), there are 17 Cittas in total that depend on the present Rupa. At the end of 17 Cittas, the last Citta and Rupa fall away at the same time. If the object is quite clear, the series is called ' Atimahanta Arammana ' or very clear object. Rupa has lifespan of 17 Cittakkhana or 51 Khanas. 1 Cittakkhana last 3 Khanas. Upada ( arising ), Thi ( persisting ) and Banga (vanishing ). So there are 51 Khanas to live ( for a Rupa ). But Rupa works well when it has its full strength. So the very first Khana does not cause any effect. But 1 Bhavanga Citta passes away. It is called Atita Bhavanga Citta or past-living-consciousness. As a strong object hit, series of Bhavanga Cittas have been shaked. The 2nd Bhavanga Citta is called Bhavanga Calana or shaking-living- consciousness. As something is coming or as something hit, Bhavanga Cittas have to stop. The 3rd Citta is Bhavanguppaccheda or cutting- living-consciousness. It falls away. The 4th Citta is conscious mind. A Citta arises considering from which sense-door is the hitting sense is arising. It is Pancadvara Avajjana Citta or 5-sense-door-contemplating-consciousness. It passes away. The 5th Citta is Cakkhuvinnana Citta ( in case of seeing ). It is eye- sense-consciousness. It just sees. The 6th Citta is Sampaticchana Citta. It is receiving-consciousness. It receives the sense that was sensed by Cakkhuvinnana Citta. It falls away. The 7th Citta is Santirana Citta. It is investigting-consciousness. Next 8th Citta is Manodvara Avajjana Citta. It arises as Votthabbana Citta. It is deciding mind. It is determining-consciousness. It decides how to feel the sense. Then there follow 7 successive Cittas. They are called Javana Cittas. They are known as impulse-consciousness. They feel the sense that was experiensed by Pancadva Avajjana, Cakkhuvinnana, Sampaticchana, Santirana, Votthabbana. The last Javana Citta is 15th Citta. The 16th and 17th Cittas are Tadarammana Citta. They are deep-feeling- consciousness. At the end of all the 17th Citta both 17th Citta and Rupa vanish. Next Manodvara Vithi Cittas follow. In between further Cakkhuvinnana Vithi Cittas series follow. The sense object is being considered. It is such a shape. Next series shows it is such a colour. Next series contemplates on essence of that sight. Next series considers general name for the sight. Next series looks at specific name for the concept ( tree ) like pineapple. Next series estimates its age. Next series to some detailings and billions and billions of Cittas have happened. There is no ' We ' in these processes. Brain is just a work station. Actual sight-consciousness arises at eye or Cakkhayatana or Cakkhu Pasada or Cakkhu Vatthu. The object seems to be taken to us and we see it. Or we go there to the object and take it. It is wrong to say, ' the true nature of the *outside world* is unknowable. Functions of Cittas and Cetasikas are to know both outside world and inside world. When we are saying Pannatta, actually we are speaking about ultimate realities. In the ultimate sense there are only Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana. Pannatta is not an ultimate realities. But no one will say it is wrong to say this is a tree and so on. Because it is conventionally true and very true. There are two kind of Pannatta. Attha Pannatta ( meaning of a dhamma ) and Sadda Pannatta ( sounding words ). The latter does have influence by language but not the former. I hope this matter is clear. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Seeing arises within our brain mass. We can not actually see or > know "out there". The knowing of the "outside world" does not take > place out there, the knowing is confined to within our brain mass. > Our senses only provide an interpretation of the objects and > activities of the outside world. The true nature of the *outside > world* is unknowable. > > Is this Panatta? Or is Panatta more closely tied to the "word" we > use to describe or create a concept of the *tree*? Is Panatta a > result of language/ideas or is Panatta more akin to the objective > world being in our head? > > I don't know if I am being very clear, but thanks for any clarity > you may offer. Carl 28385 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: (4) Pannatta As A Vehicle Dear Howard, It has been sorted out in our discussion. Thanks for your reply. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 12/26/03 3:06:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Howard said, Panatta arises and falls away. I asked him in which way. > > But he failed to answer, I think. > > > ========================= > I maintain that only in the sense of 'pa~n~natti' as "thoughts" or > "ideas" or other mental constructs. They come and go as objects of consciousness. > But I do not think that their referents (such as trees and cars) arise and > fall away, because they never even exist at all except in a manner of speaking. > > With metta, > Howard 28386 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 10:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hi, Christine (and all) - Fascinating! If the Buddha were "the Lord, God," and these were some of his angels, their leader might be Satan, himself! This sounds like the sort of revolt-type story that might have lead to renegade-angels legends. In any case, these are devas who, because of their extreme pride, are probably not long for the deva realms! They're probably headed towards the realm of demigods/titans. BTW, pride doesn't seem to be mentioned all that much in the suttas - or am I wrong about that? In any case, I think that pride is a very sneaky defilement - it can ambush you when you think you are immune to it, and it is very harmful!! With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/27/03 6:05:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > To ensure we are all on the same page :-), I have typed out this > interesting sutta to refer to while discussing. > metta and peace > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > 1 The Book with Verses (Sagaathaavagga) > 1. Devataasamyutta > 35 (5) Faultfinders > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthi in Jeta's > Grove, Anaathapindika's Park. Then, when the night had advanced, a > number of "faultfinding" devataas, of stunning beauty, illuminating > the entire Jeta's Grove, approached the Blessed One and stood in the > air. [n.76] > > Then one devataa, standing in the air, recited this verse in the > presence of the Blessed One: > > "If one shows oneself in one way > While actually being otherwise, > What one enjoys is obtained by theft > Like the gains of a cheating gambler."[n.77] > > {Another devataa:} > "One should speak as one would act; > Don't speak as one wouldn't act. > The wise clearly discern the person > Who does not practise what he preaches." > > {The Blessed One:} > "Not by mere speech nor solely by listening > Can one advance on this firm path of practice > By which the wise ones, the meditators, > Are released from the bondage of Maara." > > "Truly, the wise do not pretend, > For they have understood the way of the world. > By final knowledge the wise are quenched: > They have crossed over attachment to the world." > > Then those devataas, having alighted on the earth, prostrated > themselves with their heads at the Blessed One's feet and said to the > Blessed One. "A transgression overcame us, venerable sir, being so > foolish, so stupid, so unskilful that we imagined we could assail the > Blessed One. Let the Blessed One pardon us for our transgression seen > as such for the sake of restraint in the future." > > Then the Blessed One displayed a smile. [n.78] Those devataas, > finding fault to an even greater extent, then rose up into the air. > One devataa recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One: > > "If one does not grant pardon > To those who confess transgression, > Angry at heart, intent on hate, > One strongly harbours enmity." > > [The Blessed One:] > "If there was no transgression, > If here there was no going astray, > And if enmities were appeased, > Then one would be faultless here." [n.79] > > [A devataa:] > "For whom are there no transgressions? > For whom is there no going astray? > Who has not fallen into confusion? > And who is the wise one, ever mindful?" > > [The Blessed One:] > "The Tathaagata, the Enlightened One, > Full of compassion for all beings: > For him there are no transgressions, > For him there is no going astray; > He has not fallen into confusion, > And he is the wise one, ever mindful. > > "If one does not grant pardon > To those who confess transgression, > Angry at heart, intent on hate, > One strongly harbours enmity. > In that enmity I do not delight, > Thus I pardon your transgression. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28387 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:39pm Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hello Howard, and All, I hadn't yet read the notes to the sutta, and when I was typing the line "Then the Blessed One displayed a smile." I thought "Oh shoot! there's going to be trouble!" {Anyone involved in attempting conflict resolution, or who can remember an ill-spent youth, would have recognised the signs ... :-)} - I'm assuming the Blessed One knew which 'buttons' to press for the eventual benefit of these particular devas. Looking at note 78, it says:Spk: Why did the Buddha display a smile? It is said that those devas did not apologize in a way that accorded with the Buddha's true nature (sabhaavena); they acted as if there were no difference between the Tathaagata, the supreme person in the world, and ordinary worldly people. The Blessed One smiled with the intention: "When discussion arises from this, I will show the power of a Buddha and thereafter I will pardon them." Regarding Pride - would this come under the heading of Mana (conceit)? I can remember Sarah, RobK and others, once (after I had indulged in a long, angry story of injustice, pain and misery) trying to tactfully mention conceit and dosa and how righteous anger was part of it. Telling the Story of hurt and unfairness was just 'flying a flag' drawing attention to oneself, and what about the present moment? I think they said it more gently than this. :-) Hope I haven't got this terribly mixed up. ... I wonder where the 'flying the flag' quote came from? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine (and all) - > > Fascinating! If the Buddha were "the Lord, God," and these were some > of his angels, their leader might be Satan, himself! This sounds like the sort > of revolt-type story that might have lead to renegade-angels legends. > In any case, these are devas who, because of their extreme pride, are > probably not long for the deva realms! They're probably headed towards the > realm of demigods/titans. > BTW, pride doesn't seem to be mentioned all that much in the suttas - > or am I wrong about that? In any case, I think that pride is a very sneaky > defilement - it can ambush you when you think you are immune to it, and it is > very harmful!! > > With metta, > Howard 28388 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Howard > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What do you mean by "spontaneously," Ken? Surely you don't > mean "randomly, without cause." > ------------------------------------------------ k: Definitely not random. Definitely with cause, with a natural sequence. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Okay. So here you require a cause for the arising of wisdom. > Is the only cause the study of the teachings? And does the study of the teachings occur without volition? > ------------------------------------------------ k: Ah... Howard, this is the fun part. Study, listening to dhamma are a only one part for the cause for rising wisdom. Definitely they are volition but the subtle differece whether is this volition a purposely caused volition or a natural caused volition. It is definitely difficult to see whether our actions now in study dhamma or emailing is natural caused or purposedly caused. For me, emailing in DSG now it is a purposed action and, due to prompted by materials in DSG, I have do my own private study and that is to me a natural caused volition. I dont purposedly go and read dhamma books bc I will definitely fall asleep, it must be something that is nagging inside me before I look at it. > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > And why should mindfulness at a high level occur? Randomly, > or due to causes and conditions? And does intentional paying of attention play no role in this? > ------------------------------------------------ k: Definitely everything in samasara always have caused and conditions including panna. > Howard: > Are you now presenting kasina practice and samatha bhavana > as an example of what the Buddha meant by "sinking?" Are you maintaining that the Buddha cautioned against samatha bhavana and the jhanas? > -------------------------------------------------- k: What Buddha said in the suttas is that the jhana is not reach by concentration only, it has to be accompany by the other mental states. Doing meditation on one objects will not get anyone anywhere bc it is not accompany by sati and panna. When the sutta said stilling of directed thoughts (as translated by TB in accesstoinsight), does it meant concentration. Furthermore can thoughts be still by just diverting it into one kasina, do causes and conditions can be still on one object? Can I said, I want my thoughts be thus and my thoughts not be thus. So can I choose my thoughts to be stilled and not to be stilled. Can I control it? Can we control thoughts that dont belong to anyone. Or was it meant the stilling of directed thoughts possibly be the eradication of mental restlessness which accompanied all aksuala cittas. kind rgds Ken O 28389 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Hi Nina Thanks for clarify latent tendecies. No offense meant, when I first read what you wrote on vipaka citta experience pleasant and unpleasant object two years ago, it confounded me. Bc to me how does a citta which is kamma produced know it is pleasant or unpleasant. Then recently I read in the summary of paramatthas, then it made sense that it is javana that experience whether pleasant or unpleasant of kusala or akusala vipaka objects and not otherwise . Furthermore, this vipaka confounded me bc it is indifference (except for body) therefore should not be pleasant or unpleasant. To me it is known to be kusala or akusala vipaka bc of resultant effect of kamma and not bc of pleasant or unpleasant objects experience as the objects of it pleasant and unpleasant only be felt during javana process and not during vipaka citta (I stand to be corrected). Also hence that is also why wise attention could only start with the javana process and not beforehand bc as it is all vipaka or kiriya. As I say to Robert K before, I believe in knowning technicality. By understanding the way it works, it help me to remember, help a lot in my understanding. One day I may find the answer why four rupas arise together and not one at a time. Now I understand it by faith. kind regards Ken o 28390 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:33pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not/KenH Hi Christine, As usual in these matters, your advice is spot on. It does help to realise that my mental state is not unique. I've been through this sort of thing several times and it does eventually pass. I just wish it wasn't accompanied by foot-in-mouth disease. Then other people wouldn't have to suffer with me. :-( As per your advice, I have written a post for the Samyutta thread. But it might wait in my drafts folder for a while. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya KenH, > > Post-Christmas depression and sluggishness are endemic. Are you > quite certain you aren't just ducking out to the Maleny Folk Festival 28391 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: Formal Practice or not/KenH Hiya KenH, If I can take up bandwith waxing lyrical about the blow flies on my back verandah, and whether devas think they are beautiful or not - why should anyone have ANY qualms about what they post? :-) :-) Bring it on! - the worst that can happen is you'll improve MY profile. :-) Have some compassion man! And that should be the Woodford Folk Festival (not Maleny). http://www.woodfordfolkfestival.com/webcast/webcast.html metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > As usual in these matters, your advice is spot on. It > does help to realise that my mental state is not unique. > > I've been through this sort of thing several times > and it does eventually pass. I just wish it wasn't > accompanied by foot-in-mouth disease. Then other people > wouldn't have to suffer with me. :-( > > As per your advice, I have written a post for the > Samyutta thread. But it might wait in my drafts folder > for a while. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hiya KenH, > > > > Post-Christmas depression and sluggishness are endemic. Are you > > quite certain you aren't just ducking out to the Maleny Folk > Festival 28392 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 9:57pm Subject: Re: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Dear Howard, I want to give the matter careful thought. So, I need more time. I had afterthoughts about my jokes concerning citta and the groups of rupa, and I am really sorry, this was not appropriate. The subject of groups of rupa is not easy to understand. I should not take the matter lightly and better realise your point de vue about experience vis a vis rupas. Nina. op 27-12-2003 21:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ========================== > I've been thinking over this matter a bit more, and some musings occur > to me. They are not conclusions, but just some thoughts.) > Specifically what you wrote in ADL that I was referring to is the > following: "Every citta must have an object and thus the bhavanga-citta too > has an > object. 28393 From: Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 5:10pm Subject: Re: An Interesting But Fanciful Scenario Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58,groups of rupa Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/28/03 12:58:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > I want to give the matter careful thought. So, I need more time. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By all means. I know that everything you write is carefully considered. ----------------------------------------------- > I had afterthoughts about my jokes concerning citta and the groups of rupa, > and I am really sorry, this was not appropriate. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on what you are referring to, Nina, but I am not aware of *anything* you said that was inappropriate or that calls for the slightest apology. ------------------------------------------- The subject of groups of> > rupa is not easy to understand. I should not take the matter lightly and > better realise your point de vue about experience vis a vis rupas. > Nina. > > ======================= I look forward to reading what you have to say further both with regard to rupas and bhavanga cittas, whenever you are ready. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 28394 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent tendecies Dear ken, Glad your thinking helped. According to the texts one can go beyond any doubt about kamma and its results -see the Visuddhimagga, for instance, where at the third stage of vipassana insight wisdom sees clearly that conditions bring results and is sure that it was this way in the past and was this way in the future. How is that possible? Well they say the more that it becomes clear that the different jatis are different -that vipaka is different from akusala or kusala - then this helps to see more. And too what is it that insight sees when it sees the characteristics of dhammas? It sees also their functions and so there must be more understanding of say lobha (which arises during javana only) and how it has so much power. Verydifferent from the moments of seeing or hearing that are vipaka- they appear as barren of that sort of power. But the vipaka moments are always conditioned by either kusala or akusala kamma .It is irrelevant whether there is any knowing of this during the javana phase or not. It is just as it is. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Robert > > I will rethink on the javana vithi citta again here is another qn > related to that, > > Nina in her Abdhidhamma in Daily Life > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/nina-abhidhamma/nina-abhi-03.htm states > "Every time we experience an unpleasant. object through one of the > five senses, there is akusala vipaka Every time we experience a > pleasant object through one of the five senses there is kusala vipaka." > > When an object is pleasant object or unpleasants object can only be > experience during the javana process and not at any beforehand cittas > of the process, A Sujin quoted the Atthasalini whereby the > king(javana) "partake" the object impinging on the dvara. So a > vipaka citta when accept an object does not known whether this object > is pleasant or unpleasant object. In other words, an object is seen by > the eye but it is not known pleasant or unpleasant until javana > process. In addition, vipaka is always indifference be it kusala or > akusala vipaka. this process of kowning a vipaka is kusala or akusala > will only be known after the javana process of the sense door. > > > > Comments please > > > kind regards > Ken O 28395 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Ken O, and Michael Thanks, Ken, very useful. Especially interesting to me is the passage: "it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' (sabhava-dhamma)". I see this as confirming that 'sabhava' carries a meaning that is wholly consistent with the conditioned nature of dhammas. The word 'ultimate' is also discussed in the passage. Just before your quote it says, "The topics of Abhidhamma ... are from the ultimate standpoint four: consciousness, mentalities, materiality, and nibbana." The commentary is as follows: "'from the ultimate standpoint' -- by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk" and "'Ultimate' means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate." Also, CMA quotes a passage from the Vibhanga describing 'ultimate' as 'that which belongs to the domain of ultimate or supreme knowledge'. [CMA Guide to par. 2]. Michael, I'd be interested to hear your comments on these descriptions of 'sabhava' and 'paramattha'. Jon --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Jon and Michael ... > "Alternatively, consciouness is the mere act of being conscious > (cintana) . For it is its mere occurence in accordance with > conditions that is called 'a dhamma with its own particular nature' > (sabhava-dhamma). In consideration of this, it is the definition > of the particular nature of ultimate dhammas that is taken as > absolute: > the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (karana) > should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. For a dhamma's > being treated as an agent and also its being[treated] in > consequence > as an instrument, by attributing the state of agent to a group of > conascent dhammas, are both taken as a relative manner of speaking. > > The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the > purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc apart for > the particular nature of a dhamma." 28396 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] tanha and intention Ben --- Benjamin Jerome wrote: > Jon - ... > Could you please describe how to develop awareness of presently > occurring dhammas? > This sounds like mindfulness to me. (Yes, 'awareness' and 'mindfulness' are both standard translations of the Pali term 'sati' (as in 'satipatthana').) You'd like a description of how to develop awareness/mindfulness of presently occurring dhammas? Wouldn't we all! Unfortunately, there' s no such thing as a 'how-to' for satipatthana -- there are only descriptions of what it is and what are the conditions for its arising. Satipatthana is not something to be 'done', but then that is true of other kusala mindstates too (in fact it's true of any mindstate). Mindstates arise only according to a complex operation of conditions and, as you can observe from your own experience of the present moment is, deliberate intention is not a necessary condition for mindstates to occur. Satipatthana is a huge and complex topic, and one that lies at the heart of the whole teachings. I am happy to share what little I know, but I'm not saying anything will be clear ;-)). > Does this mean to simply pay attention to sounds, sights, smells, > tastes, touches, and thoughts in the here and now? You are right to mention the presently occurring the sense-door and mind-door objects as being the objects of sati, but that is not the whole story by any means. Firstly, the potential objects of sati include also the consciousness that experiences those sense- and mind-door objects, and also the mental factors accompanying that consciousness. And secondly, it's not a matter of 'paying attention', since that implies something 'to be done', and also a conscious selection of the (perceived) presently occurring object, whereas in fact that object has fallen away long before it can be attended to. So as a first step we need to know in quite some detail what is meant by 'dhamma' in this connection. It is helpful to know not just the names of the different dhammas but to have a good intellectual/theoretical knowledge of their description and characteristics. They are occurring now, as we read this message, but they are not seen as they truly are. For example, 'computer monitor' is not a presently occurring dhamma, but visible-object is. 'Letters on a screen' are not a presently occurring dhamma, but the reading and understanding of text cannot occur without numerous different kinds of successively occurring 'present dhammas'. Thinking, feeling and liking/disliking are all dhammas too, and are no doubt among those presently occurring. Does any of this make sense? Jon 28397 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 58, sex faculty. Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: Well, of course there *could* be such a rupa, but it is nowhere made clear, so far as I can see, what is the nature of it. ... what is needed is some sort of demonstration of paramattha dhammas, not pa~n~natti, that are properly called by these terms. Jon: There is of course no rule that says if it's a dhamma that arises in this world it must therefore be experiencable by you and me or, conversely, if it can't be demonstrated to you and me then it can't be a dhamma arising in this world. ;-)) The whole underlying thread of the teachings is that dhammas cannot be experienced as they truly are except to developed panna. So it would be anomalous if the finer points of the teachings or the subtle rupas could somehow be 'demonstrated' to all and sundry. Countenancing the possibility of something, however, means nothing more than not setting one's minds against it (even where it may seem an unlikely proposition at first blush). It does not imply an 'act of faith', nor even a willingness to accept anything uncritically. Jon 28398 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hi Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: >I wonder where the 'flying > the flag' quote came from? .... Here's one source: Atthasalini (bk 11, Part 11, ch2, 372) on conceit: “ “Conceit”, “overweening” and “conceitedness” signify mode and state. “Loftiness” is in the sense of rising upwards or of springing over others. “haughtiness”, i.e. in whom conceit arises, him it lifts up, keeps upraised. “Flaunting a flag” is in the sense of swelling above others. “Assumption’ means uplifting; conceit favours the mind all round. Of many flags the flag which raises above others is called a banner. So conceit arising repeatedly in the sense of excelling with reference to subsequent conceits is like a banner. That mind which desires the banner is said to be desirous of the banner (i.e. , self-advertisement). Such a state is desire for self-advertisement......” ..... Metta, Sarah ===== 28399 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:15am Subject: Re: SN1:35 Faultfinders Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > Has there ever been a Devataa who wasn't 'of stunning beauty', not an > ugly one, just a common, everyday attractive one? I think that these are interesting questions (regardless of your joke to Ken H.). After giving it much thought, I would imagine that the devas do think of each other as beautiful. They exist in a different sphere where the same things that apply to us don't apply to them. They all have very good kamma to be born in this sphere, in which they are spontaneously born, and so they all have pleasure and beauty as a standard. But, ironically, not everyone considers them beautiful; consider the first stanza of this sutta (which I have quoted in whole previously) and the commentary notes: SN I, 46 "Nymphs" "Resounding with a host of nymphs, Haunted by a host of demons! This grove is to be called `Deluding': How does one escape from it?" Note 100: Spk relates the background story: In his previous life this deva had been an overzealous bhikkhu who had neglected sleep and food in order to attend to his meditation subject. Because of his excessive zeal, he died of a wind ailment and was immediately reborn in the Tavatimsa heaven amidst a retinue of celestial nymphs (acchara). The change occurred so quickly that he did not even know he had expired and thought he was still a bhikkhu. The nymphs tried to seduce him, but he rejected their amorous advances and tried to resume his meditation practice. Finally, when the nymphs brought him a mirror, he realized he had been reborn as a deva, but he thought "I did not practice the work of an ascetic in order to take rebirth here, but to attain the supreme goal of arahantship." Then, with his virtue still intact, surrounded by the retinue of nymphs, he went to the Buddha and spoke the first verse…" There is a very interesting Flash movie about devas at this link: http://www.metta.lk/special-effects/index.htm > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, James