29200 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Ripley's show <>(Hi KenO;-)) Dear Sarah: > > Michael: > > Concepts = Paññatti, for example a human being. > > Entities = Khandhas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Right! There is a strong concordance between these Buddist remarks and other western philosophical stands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > By entities, I would be referring to people and things (eg computers, > vases). These are not the khandhas. Perhaps you'd explain what you mean by > entities. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Right 2! Entities (Khandas) can be definied by everything with has a Nama/Rupa aggregate basis: an object external of sense-doors, an object of mind or the own human mind! There are many many points on Suttas about these matter! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > p.s Icaro, have you seen Michael's wonderful Portuguese website? I don't > have it handy. Michael, perhaps you'd repost it. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Not yet! It could be wonderful read good material in Portuguese!!! (And stop struggling out with german translations!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro > The German website you use looks great - Michael, it has the Kathavatthu > in German if that's any use and the Visuddhimagga with hyper-links to > suttas. > http://www.palikanon.com/ > > ===== > > > 29201 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok - kamma Hi Christine Some pple who die in a castrophe is due to their kamma being ripen and I think I remember I read it somewhere that there is unnatural death (means dying suddenly without the vipaka being ripen)- some pple die in a castrophe due to unnatural death. Kamma follow a natural law just like gravity etc follows their own law. The pblm is that kamma natural law must be an immerse and complex bc how does it work to ripe the deeds of vipaka of the infinite beings. I also dont know how, I just have faith in the Buddha about this bc this is truly the domain of the Buddha not even his disciples know the complexity of kamma. I sorry I cannot help you bc the complexity of how kamma works must be based on faith to believe. kind regards Ken O 29202 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Human Rebirth (Re: Bangkok) Hi James I also dont know how to become human again. I think the least should be the five precepts of the householders. I dont think I want to be born in the Deva realms bc I remember I read somewhere that these beings are enjoying the ripening of good kamma results and there is very little chance of practising kusala vipaka unless one preach the dhamma. Give me all the gold in the infinite universes to be reborn as a deva, I would rather choose be born in the human life (good kamma) even though suffer from thirst, hunger and phyiscal pain but it gives me plenty of opportunity to learn the dhamma and cultivate more kusala. But nothng can gurantee the rebirth in the human realms even if I practise the ten precepts bc the kamma is anatta. best wishes Ken O 29203 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:45am Subject: Re: Heart base Dear Htoo, Sorry for the delay in replying. All pasada rupas are kammasamutthana, produced by kamma. Not by citta or utu or ahara. However there are always other conditions that affect the main condition in various ways. robertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Robert K, > > Thank you very much for your effort and I am happy with heart base. > But here a question arises. > > Do Pasada Rupa solely caused by Kamma or are also caused by others? > > With much respect, > > Htoo Naing > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the > > pasada > > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not > > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a > > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma. > > That > > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please > > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and > > the > > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging > > that there is to concept and story. > > > > >robert 29204 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:48am Subject: Human Rebirth (Re: Bangkok) Hi Christine, Christine: The Samyutta Nikaya also contains the Connected Discourses on Stream- Entry - 55 The Sotaapattisamyutta which points to the way to security from being reborn in bad destinations. Would you like to move the Samyutta Corner discussions over to this Samyutta for a while? It could be fruitful. :-) James: Sure, that sounds like a good idea. Then, after we have explored that throughly, I would suggest we jump to the books in the Samyutta Nikaya that classify, define, and explore the Khandas. It seems that many in this group are interested in this area but we all usually have only a vague idea of what we are referring to. What do you think? Jumping around in the Samyutta, as teaching opportunities arise, is probably the best way to handle it. Good suggestion! Why don't you start (since it was your idea ;-). Metta, James 29205 From: Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:21am Subject: Existence, Khandhas, And Ripley's Believe It or Not Hi all, most especially Michael, Sarah, and Jon - The "emptiness-middle-way" expressed in the Kaccayangotta Sutta is a really tough tight-rope act for all of us. It is *easy* to fall off to the right, the side of self-existence and substantialism, and it is *easy* to fall off to the left, the side of utter nonexistence and nihilism - it is *very* easy. Using terms such as 'a reality' and 'essence' and 'sabhava' for a fleeting event that cannot exist on its own, independently, for even a moment, and to think of such as a separate "thing," and not as a mere fleeting, distinguishable aspect of an interdependent, dynamic network, is to teeter to the right, in my opinion. On the other hand, to completely deny the very existence of such an event, for the reason of its existing briefly but not forever (Michael, you wrote "...how is it possible that a thing exists and then loses that something and suddenly does not exist anymore ...," and I reply here that there *is* no such "something" to be gained and lost, no essence/core, but merely completely dependent arising, change, and cessation of a condition/event.) is to fall off the nihilist left side. Imagining coming into existence as the gaining of a substantial essence, a "something" which is then destroyed, you then run in disgust from such annihilationism and fall into the arms of utter nihilism (no existence at all). At least this is how it seems to me. If we reify existence we stumble and fall off to the right, if we deny it entirely we perish on the left. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:21am Subject: life faculty and apples Hi Larry, I heard on tape more about life faculty, which may help the picture of the whole. Its aspect of taking care (like a wetnurse) was stressed. It is an indriya, leader, having the function of taking care of the other rupas produced by kamma. So also in the eyedecad: eyesense could not function without it. So also with regard to femininity and masculinity, and the other groups of rupas produced by kamma. By the way, there are no apples available in a hell plane, and we can hardly expect them in a ghost plane. Nina. 29207 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:21am Subject: latent tendencies Ch 1, no 7 latent tendencies Ch 1, no 7 3. There are three levels of defilements. In the Commentaries to the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma, and in the Subcommentaries, there are explanations of the elimination of the three levels of defilements, namely, the anusaya kilesa (latent tendencies), the pariyutthåna kilesa (arising with the akusala citta) and the vítikkama kilesa (transgression, misconduct). We read in the Commentary to the Vinaya, the ³Samantapåsådikå, in the ³Inception of Discipline² (II, the Account of the First Great Convocation, 22 ) [15] : ³In the Vinayapitaka is taught the avoidance of transgression (vítikkama kilesa), as morality is diametrically opposed to the defilements of the degree of transgression; in the Suttapitaka the avoidance of prepossession (pariyutthåna kilesa, arising with the akusala citta), as concentration (samådhi) is diametrically opposed to prepossession; in the Abhidhammapitaka, the avoidance (pahåna: abandoning) of latent bias, as wisdom is diametrically opposed to latent bias. In the first (pitaka) the categorical avoidance (tadangappahåna) of defilements has been taught and in the others(respectively) the avoidance consisting of elimination and eradication (vikkhambhanasamucchedappahånåni). In the first the avoidance of the defilement of misconduct has been taught and in the others (respectively) that of the defilements of craving and misbelief...² We read in the ³Sumangalavilåsiní², the Commentary to the Dígha Nikåya, in the Commentary to the ³Net of Views² (Brahmajålasutta), under the section on Síla: ³In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. He taught in the first Pitaka the temporary elimination of defilements and in the other two Pitakas he taught (respectively) the elimination of defilements by suppression and by complete cutting off. The abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) which are akusala kamma he taught in the first Pitaka, the abandoning of the corruptions which are craving (tanhå) and wrong view (ditthi) he taught (respectively) in the other two Pitakas.² Footnote: 15. N.A. Jayawickrama translated: transgression is diametrically opposed to morality, but I prefer: morality is diametrically opposed to transgression. **** Nina. 29208 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: A Missing Feature (Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Math) Hi Howard, does this question still stand? Anyway, your model was an opportunity for some reflection on cetasikas. Always a good subject. You did not present it in vain. I am thinking aloud now. op 18-01-2004 05:05 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Now, this may or may not be consistent with Abhidhamma, but I believe > that nothing remains *exactly* the same even for a moment. At the very least, > for any cetasika and for any experienced object, that cetasika or object > changes in intensity during its interval of existence, first increasing, then > peaking, then decreasing. As an example, there might be, at some point in > time within a namarupic flow, no anger whatsoever, but then anger arises, > grows > gradually, peaks, then decreases, and finally ceases. (It could, of course, > then arise once again, in a subsequrent citta.) N: This makes me think of the simile in the Expositor: it is impossible to discern when taking water of the Ganges: this is water from the Aciravati and this from the other rivers that flow into it. But the Buddha did a difficult thing: discerning all the different cetasikas. The Dhamma student thinks he knows anger, can experience that cetasika, but there are considerable difficulties. When I say Dhamma student: shorthand for all those developing the Eightfold Path. Moreover, I do not bring in my own knowledge, but like to share what I learnt from A. Sujin. This between brackets. A. Sujin said, we cannot claim to clearly distinguish cetasika from citta. This does not mean that we cannot begin to be aware. This is most common and happens all the time: the student thinks that he can experience something directly, but it is only thinking of concepts. Cittas are extremely fast. It may seem that a cetasika can be observed growing in intensity, but meanwhile countless moments have passed. The student may think that he has now understood the difference between thinking and awareness, but after a while he realizes that this is still not the case. This is bound to happen again and again. Very common. A. Sujin said: panna has to go across all realities, it has to be realized. It shows how important the perfection of truthfulness is. There are many pittfalls for the student so long as the latent tendency of wrong view is not eradicated. He may believe that he has no wrong view, but it is essential to recognize it as such. Also to recognize clinging to result as A. Sujin keeps on saying. Thus we see how helpful the details of the Abhidhamma are. Take for example conceit: the impressive list in the "Book of Analysis" and the ninefold conceit. Conceit has been explained in the suttas, and the Abhidhamma gives us more details. Even when thinking, , there is conceit, even when not comparing. Or we think (even *think*) the other person has anger...etc. (fill out the list), it is there already. A latent tendency eradicated only at reaching arahatship. But we know so very little of these cetasikas arising in life, even we write books about them! When writing about Dhamma or no matter what we do: conceit time and again. A good topic for Bgk!! We can hand each other interesting examples. Should we close down the list? Do we continue writing? Conceit arises with cittas rooted in lobha only. But when writing there is also fatigue, some aversion because of the effort, wanting to do rather something else, like looking at Pali texts. As Sarah said, we are always a mixture of kusala and akusala, it is so common. I had a conversation with Mike about defilements: that there's no one behind sankhaarakhandha . N: this is a super reminder, much appreciated. N:My father was moved to tears because of the music and said, you have a >> grateful father. This is quite something for him to say. M: Yes, pleasant feelings arising from so complex a series of cittakha.naa...so pleasant, nonetheless.> Sankhaarakkhandha, formations, include akusala cetasikas and sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas, and these are accumulated. All our lobha, dosa, moha, conceit, but no one behind it. We cannot have kusala on command, or awareness on command. A. Sujin often says about understanding: intellectual understanding and reflection, some moments of awareness, these are all accumulated as sankhaarakkhandha and they will bear fruit: understanding develops until it is supramundane. And no person behind it all. As Mike said, pleasant feelings arising from so complex a series of cittakha.naa, from a moment of citta (kha.naa is moment). So many kinds of pleasant feelings, some kusala, many akusala. Helpful to see the intricacy. When hearing an unpleasant word, conceit can condition dosa: why is *he* doing that to *me*? I told A. Sujin once about problems with my father. Her answer: there is not your father, and the hearing of sound is just hearing, and what is heard is just sound. When we think in the way of paramattha dhammas, and we can sometimes be aware, we are less involved with persons. We travel safely. It does make a difference. But the student should not imagine that he can directly experience cetasikas, a long, long way off. This should not bother him. All are sankhaarakkhandha. The Tipitaka, Commentaries and good friends are so inspiring and encouraging! Nina. 29209 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:21am Subject: correction latent tendencies, Ch1, no 4 Dear Sarah and Kom, I do not know whether this comes too late. Since I am now able to compare texts with Pali, and after having some exchange with Jim and Rett on the Pali yahoo list, I want to correct as follows: correction latent tendencies, Ch1, no 4, the whole passage of :In the ³Pañcappakaranatthakathå², in the Commentary to the ³Yamaka², the Sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, we read in the section on the latent tendencies (anusaya-våra) and the section on ³possessed of latent tendencies² (sånusaya-våra): "In the section on Œbeing possessed of latent tendencies¹ the Buddha said : ¹Who is with the latent tendency of sensuous desire, he is possessed of it' It is just like someone who suffers extremely from the sickness of old age, and so on, and, so long as he is not cured from this sickness, is called a sick person even when illness does not arise. It is the same in the case of someone with defilements who is traversing the round of rebirths whose latent tendencies have not been eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. Even though the latent tendencies do not arise he is called a person who is possessed of the latent tendencies. Thus, concerning such latent tendencies he is possessed with, he finds them quite acceptable. The other words in this section are the same as those in the section on latent tendencies.² Thus we see that there are latent tendencies in each of the cittas that are arising and falling away in succession so long as they have not been eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. **** (footnote 10 is eliminated. That means, in the following sections, up to footnote 15, that these shift backwards!) Nina. 29210 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:56am Subject: Stream Entry - SN XI 55 2 (2) Grounded Hello James, Samyutta study group, all, Good idea James to move about as interest in a particular topic occurs. Though the suttas get longer now we are away from the Verses. metta, Christine Chapter XI 55. Sotaapattisamyutta Connected Discourses on Stream Entry 2 (2) Grounded "Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream- enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. [n. 322] "What four? Here, bhikkhus, a noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: "The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' "He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: 'The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.' "He possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha thus: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individiuals - this Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.' "He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise ungrasped, leading to concentration. [n.320] "A noble disciple, bhikkhus, who possesses these four things is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination." "This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "Those who possess faith and virtue, Confidence and vision of the Dhamma, In time arrive at the happiness Grounded upon the holy life." [n.323] n.320 The terms describing the noble one's virtue are explicated at Vism 221-22 (Ppn 7:101-6). Spk says that noble ones do no violate (na kopenti) the Five Precepts even when they pass on to a new existence; hence these virtues are dear to them. n.322 This is the stock definition of the stream-enterer. "Fixed in destiny (niyata) means that the stream-enterer is bound to reach final liberation in a maximum of seven more lives passed either in the human world or the celestial realms. Enlightenment (sambodhi) is the final knowledge of arahantship. n.323 Brahmacariyogadha.m sukkha.m. On ogadha see III, n. 243 Spk.: This is the happiness assoicated with the higher three paths. The confidence mentioned in the verse can be interpreted either as the confidence concomitant witht he path (maggappasaada) or as the reviewing confidence of one who has reached the path (aagatamaggassa paccavekkhanappasaada). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 29211 From: Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:16am Subject: What is There to Say? Hi, all - There is something essentially wrong with my model, but not just *that* model, and it is what Thomas Nagel calls "the view from nowhere." The model envisages events occurring on an infinite time-line, as if one could step back and look at all there was, all there is, and all there will be as if that alleged infinite linearity were all "present". But it is *not* all present, and there is no stepping back! In fact, there is no time but "now", no place but "here", and no event but "this". We can speak of impermanence, but what is it that doesn't remain? Isn't it just that "this" doesn't match the memory that is also right here, right now, but seems to refer to some presumed "past event"? Nothing whatsoever is graspable, and there can be no change in time, for there is no time but now. Time is a dream. And with time a dream, so are both permanence and impermanence dreams. So ... what can be truly said? Nothing - it is ineffable, a mystery! But it is a timeless reality - just "Look! Look!" With timeless metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29212 From: Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:20am Subject: An Addendum (Re: What is There to Say?) Hi again, all - I wrote the following: > > Hi, all - > > There is something essentially wrong with my model, but not just > *that* model, and it is what Thomas Nagel calls "the view from nowhere." The > model > envisages events occurring on an infinite time-line, as if one could step > back > and look at all there was, all there is, and all there will be as if that > alleged infinite linearity were all "present". But it is *not* all present, > and > there is no stepping back! > In fact, there is no time but "now", no place but "here", and no event > but "this". We can speak of impermanence, but what is it that doesn't > remain? > Isn't it just that "this" doesn't match the memory that is also right here, > right now, but seems to refer to some presumed "past event"? Nothing > whatsoever > is graspable, and there can be no change in time, for there is no time but > now. Time is a dream. And with time a dream, so are both permanence and > impermanence dreams. So ... what can be truly said? Nothing - it is > ineffable, a > mystery! But it is a timeless reality - just "Look! Look!" > > With timeless metta, > Howard ========================= None of the above is meant to suggest that the Buddha was wrong. It is just that what the Buddha said was not "it". It was a pointing to "it", the best pointing possible. The Dhamma is the best of rafts - well crafted, without leaks, that can carry one for the entire trip if he/she but gets on board and doesn't get off. And the stating of the tilakkhana and the scheme of dependent origination probably come about as close as speech can to describing the indescribable. There is no condition that remains, there is no condition that satisfies, there is nothing with self/core; and there is no aspect of experience that stands on its own, self-existent. What better pointing could there be? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29213 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:08pm Subject: Ken H on-line Hi all, Apologies for my sudden disappearance. After a (long) week without dsg, I am back in the land of the living – and with a new computer. I look forward to catching up on almost 200 unread messages. See you then. Kind regards, Ken H 29214 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:18pm Subject: Re: Ken H on-line Welcome back, KenH :-). - Well, that disproves the Bunyip Theory! metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi all, > > Apologies for my sudden disappearance. After a (long) week without > dsg, I am back in the land of the living – and with a new computer. > > I look forward to catching up on almost 200 unread messages. See > you then. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 29215 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:22pm Subject: Re: heartbase, bhavangas, et al Hi Ken, Htoo, Larry, Icaro, Nina, All ~ Here, I would like to unfurl my tattered flag around the whole bhavanga thing so you all can see it's more of a spider's web with it's gaping holes. I'm not sure where to put the jhana patches Sir Icaro was kind enough to send... welcome home and congratulations on the promotion!... and thank you for the dance. Patisandhi arises with or without heartbase, depending on the realm, but is the kammic link between the existences/lifetimes. It is the kamma or something to do with the last five javanas' object that determines this new foundation. The materially reborn (formless realm) are established on the vital nonad. Others, materially and mentally reborn, on the maranasanna-nimitta (which could be the heartbase). [More con-fusion on the types of maranasanna, but they are - kamma object (past, manodvara); kamma nimitta (past or present, sense-/rupa- or mano-dvara); gati nimitta (mano-dvara)]. Depending on the kamma producing it, patisandhi is not nec'ly performed by the same type of citta (19 possible) as the preceding cuti, but all (resultant) bhavangas of each lifetime will be the same type as that patisandhi. The patisandhi is followed by 16 bhavangas, the mano-dvara-avajjana and 7 javanas and there is already liking of the new existence from this first vithi from lobha mula citta. Thus, the whole existence is based on clinging even if there is a huge tendency for lobha and the two can't arise at the same time. In the less drastic times (the momentary death-birth cycles within each lifetime), the atita-bhavanga is where/when an object (rupic or otherwise) enters/disturbs the surface of the stream of (sub)consciousness/bhavanga-sota. Depending on how hard the object lands, there can be more than one occurrence of atita (2 or 3?). The bhavanga-calana catches the object and the ripples spread out on the surface. The bhavangupaccheda arrests the further entry into the bhavanga sota, but there is a whirlpool/activity where there is an obstruction. I don't know - maybe bhavangupacceda is the mind-door [Vibhavini Tika] and is also called avajjana (opening/turning toward) bhavanga [S'avajjanam bhavangantu manodvaranti vuccati - Abhidhmmavatara]; maybe it precedes the avajjana, which would then be the pancadvaravajjana/adverting consciousness, which is classified as 'functional' and, I think, the beginning of a vithi. Anyway, up to three moments of avajjana occur and intention and awareness arise from this 'mind as the basis'/mananja. The dvi-panca-vinnanas (resultant) arise with the universal cetasikas only and are conditioned by both physical and mental factors. Whatever the door might be, manayatana/mind-sphere is both manodvaravajjana and bhavangupacceda. 'Mind' is both vinnana/conciousness and citta/state of consciousness (with accompanying cetasikas) as well as the bhavanga-sota (though we usually seem to mean only the 'conscious-conscious' mind). The special/named bhavangas seem to be some kind of guard or decontamination chamber since the bhavangas as a whole are not supposed to receive any new external object having to do with the present life and are dvara-vimutta/door-freed. [The cuti and patisandhi do not arise in any sense-doors]. But at this point there is only dassana-matta/mere awareness of the object, no knowledge has been produced, and the object is hurried through the door to the receiving/welcoming/sampaticchana citta and then introduced to the investigator/santirana before being sent to the votthapana/determining/discriminating mind and then the javanas and finally, if there is time, one or two tadalambana/tadarammana/registering/retaining cittas. This whole mind vithi is named according to the javanas: kammajavana, jhanajavana or maggaphalajavana. This sense door process has all dealt with present objects only and after this, we return to the bhavangas. I think this is an abrupt thing, with no specially named functions between. The physical/sense-door thought process ending point depends on the initial impact/atita moment, which may be atiparitta/very slight (mogha vara), paritta/slight (votthapana vara) or mahanta/great (javana vara) or atimahanta/very great (tadalambana vara). If it had been a mind door process ending with the javana, the object was avibhuta/obscure; if after the tadarammana(s), vibhuta/clear. peace, connie 29216 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: Angulimala revisited Hi Ken O, Christine (Azita) ~ Maybe Christine has more details, but I don't know to bribe her. I've heard the Angulimala Meets Buddha part is very touching as well, but don't have any further details to add. I laughed, too, Christine. But the longest scary story still just might be The Momentary Existence Saga. Anyway, here's something fairly recent from Mike Mailway's Seattle Times column that reminded me of one of the king stories from Angulimala: "In Australia's Queensland, natives along the Pennefeather and Tully Rivers keep alive an old tradition: Each husband is understood to have the same sexual privileges with his wife's sisters, whether they're married or not, that he has with his wife. It's not unique to that place, might add. History indicates as many as 40 North American Indian tribes once practiced variations of that cultural custom." I dunno about Mike's experiences, but I'd say variations are still practiced among certain subcultural groups in the US... the variation being more in who has rights to the girlfriend/wife. Another of Mike's tidbits: "Technically, you don't see anybody's ears. They're inside. What you see are the 'pinnas' or 'auricles.'" peace, connie 29217 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:16pm Subject: Re: Stream Entry - SN XI 55 2 (2) Grounded Hi Christine, Christine: Good idea James to move about as interest in a particular topic occurs. James: Actually it was your idea; I was just following your lead. ;-) Christine: Though the suttas get longer now we are away from the Verses. James: Yes, that can present some logistical problems, but we will just have to move forward. Those who expect to learn the end to life's suffering in twenty words or less are definitely in the wrong group! ;-)) I want to insert some comments into this sutta about areas that I think are important and worthy of more focus. (For all: This does not mean that I am teaching, clarifying, or offering more commentary; I am just throwing out my observations. Throw them out, throw them back, or throw them home as you see fit. ;-) Chapter XI 55. Sotaapattisamyutta Connected Discourses on Stream Entry 2 (2) Grounded "Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream- enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. [n. 322] "What four? Here, bhikkhus, a noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: "The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' James: I think that this one is pretty hard for a lot of us. The Buddha, as a person and an Arahant, standing in front of us, is long gone. (Where he went is up to debate. ;-). But it is very hard for most of us to build confidence in someone that we have never met. I liken it to seeing a fossil of a fish in a stone. Some people will look at that fossil and see nothing but a fossil; some people will look at that fossil and imagine "Wow, I bet that was a beautiful, wonderful, vibrant fish!" So, taking that in mind, I guess that most in this group are ahead of the game a bit. How much better off we are than those who in the Buddha's time met the Blessed One face-to- face and thought, "Yeah, so what." So, in other words, this standard needs to be considered in context. "He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: 'The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.' James: This one is easier for us but we struggle with it on a daily basis. I think that a lot of us go on instinct in this regard: We don't see a lot of evidence of the dhamma in our daily lives (surrounded by self-involved people), we just `feel' it. Our struggle is to fight the conditioning of our environment. "He possesses confirmed confidence in the Sangha thus: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individiuals - this Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.' James: Well, honestly, I don't think we have a lot of confidence in this either or we would all be monks by now. Just imagine, in the Buddha's time, the Buddha and his Sangha of monks inspired thousands to leave the householder life to discover what he taught. Families, for the most part, were overjoyed at such decisions and such honor it brought them. Where are we now? Monkhood is something that only those `other people' do in those `other countries' where such a quaint, `little custom' is still observed. I'm sorry, I feel that we have lost most of the concept of a true Sangha; but no reason to get upset about it. Nothing is permanent. "He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise ungrasped, leading to concentration. [n.320] James: Honestly, I think that most people have these virtues but don't know, don't admit, don't recognize, and don't own up to them. This one is as possible for us all as simply as opening a door. "A noble disciple, bhikkhus, who possesses these four things is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination." James: Well, at the end of this analysis, I don't think that too many of us have any reason to feel confident in this regard. More work, dedication, and faith are in need and in order. "This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "Those who possess faith and virtue, Confidence and vision of the Dhamma, In time arrive at the happiness Grounded upon the holy life." [n.323] James: Now, I don't know about you, but I feel that the Buddha was speaking to each of us here, in our present time. He knew that in the future he would be gone and the Sangha would be shabby or absent; what to do? Have confidence in the Dhamma and, in time, we will arrive at happiness. (Hmmm…how much time? I have a hair appointment at 3:00. ;-))) n.320 The terms describing the noble one's virtue are explicated at Vism 221-22 (Ppn 7:101-6). Spk says that noble ones do no violate (na kopenti) the Five Precepts even when they pass on to a new existence; hence these virtues are dear to them. James: This is typical tripe from Buddhaghosa. Virtues are virtues and they are not limited to nor defined by the five precepts. Ignore this drivel (apologies for my bluntness and you don't have to agree). n.322 This is the stock definition of the stream-enterer. "Fixed in destiny (niyata) means that the stream-enterer is bound to reach final liberation in a maximum of seven more lives passed either in the human world or the celestial realms. Enlightenment (sambodhi) is the final knowledge of arahantship. James: Considering the millions, billions, incalculable lives we have all gone through (am I the only one who feels tired?...no joke), this sounds promising. n.323 Brahmacariyogadha.m sukkha.m. On ogadha see III, n. 243 Spk.: This is the happiness assoicated with the higher three paths. The confidence mentioned in the verse can be interpreted either as the confidence concomitant witht he path (maggappasaada) or as the reviewing confidence of one who has reached the path (aagatamaggassa paccavekkhanappasaada). James: Okay, happiness during and after! Sounds good to me! ;-) Metta, James 29218 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness Hi everyone Can anyone point me in the right direction for finding out more about the prompting of Beautiful Consciousness? Can BC be prompted by the Wrong Speech or Wrong Action of another? TIA Metta Andrew 29219 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: heartbase, bhavangas, et al Dear Connie " I'm not sure where to put the jhana patches Sir Icaro was kind > enough to send... welcome home and congratulations on the promotion! " -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ohhhh.... Sir Ícaro of Montray feels so much honoured by your charms, Muse of Summer! (One day I will put my Abhidhamma files in good order...Niyama urges!) ------------------------------------------------------------------- ... > and thank you for the dance. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Pas du tout, mademoiselle! Nous...Français...sommes...tout... gentile! ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Patisandhi arises with or without heartbase, depending on the realm, but > is the kammic link between the existences/lifetimes. It is the kamma or > something to do with the last five javanas' object that determines this > new foundation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! I always take these part of Buddhistic Doctrine as a matter of Jhana: but,as I have stated in one of my Dhamma Diary Chapters, this journey from past bhavanga to a new registered one ( see Tadaramana) has sound and ground foundations on Reality. The passage Patisandhi-Cuti-rebirth is still a bit controversical for western minds... ------------------------------------------------------------------- The materially reborn (formless realm) are established > on the vital nonad. Others, materially and mentally reborn, on the > maranasanna-nimitta (which could be the heartbase). [More con-fusion on > the types of maranasanna, but they are - kamma object (past, manodvara); > kamma nimitta (past or present, sense-/rupa- or mano-dvara); gati > nimitta (mano-dvara)]. Depending on the kamma producing it, patisandhi > is not nec'ly performed by the same type of citta (19 possible) as the > preceding cuti, but all (resultant) bhavangas of each lifetime will be > the same type as that patisandhi. > > The patisandhi is followed by 16 bhavangas, the mano-dvara-avajjana -------------------------------------------------------------------- This sense-door consciousness is either Pancadvaravajjana or Manodvaravajjana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- and > 7 javanas and there is already liking of the new existence from this > first vithi from lobha mula citta. Thus, the whole existence is based > on clinging even if there is a huge tendency for lobha and the two can't > arise at the same time. ------------------------------------------------------------------- The beginning of mind consciousness as we know it is the Investing Consciousness - Santirana. After these determinations you can get a set of mind impulsions 'till the first registering consciousness. When the mind receives stimulation through one of the senses, the thought processes runs at this way: mind rising up mental impressions, with only one bhavanga at first. After all these impulsions you reach a new bhavanga, a new image or personal life (?). Due to Lobha, Dosa and Moha you get this new image as the old one. Falsely, as a matter of fact: the past bhavanga (of the past life) is gone and a new one had arisen. Many could say that the past heart-basis vanishes too, but there are other reasonings about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > In the less drastic times (the momentary death-birth cycles within each > lifetime), the atita-bhavanga is where/when an object (rupic or > otherwise) enters/disturbs the surface of the stream of > (sub)consciousness/bhavanga-sota. Depending on how hard the object > lands, there can be more than one occurrence of atita (2 or 3?). The > bhavanga-calana catches the object and the ripples spread out on the > surface. The bhavangupaccheda arrests the further entry into the > bhavanga sota, but there is a whirlpool/activity where there is an > obstruction. I don't know - maybe bhavangupacceda is the mind-door > [Vibhavini Tika] and is also called avajjana (opening/turning toward) > bhavanga [S'avajjanam bhavangantu manodvaranti vuccati - > Abhidhmmavatara]; maybe it precedes the avajjana, which would then be > the pancadvaravajjana/adverting consciousness, which is classified as > 'functional' and, I think, the beginning of a vithi. Anyway, up to > three moments of avajjana occur and intention and awareness arise from > this 'mind as the basis'/mananja. The dvi-panca-vinnanas (resultant) > arise with the universal cetasikas only and are conditioned by both > physical and mental factors. Whatever the door might be, > manayatana/mind-sphere is both manodvaravajjana and bhavangupacceda. > 'Mind' is both vinnana/conciousness and citta/state of consciousness > (with accompanying cetasikas) as well as the bhavanga-sota (though we > usually seem to mean only the 'conscious-conscious' mind). > > The special/named bhavangas seem to be some kind of guard or > decontamination chamber since the bhavangas as a whole are not supposed > to receive any new external object having to do with the present life > and are dvara-vimutta/door-freed. [The cuti and patisandhi do not arise > in any sense-doors]. But at this point there is only dassana-matta/mere > awareness of the object, no knowledge has been produced, and the object > is hurried through the door to the receiving/welcoming/sampaticchana > citta and then introduced to the investigator/santirana before being > sent to the votthapana/determining/discriminating mind and then the > javanas and finally, if there is time, one or two > tadalambana/tadarammana/registering/retaining cittas. This whole mind > vithi is named according to the javanas: kammajavana, jhanajavana or > maggaphalajavana. This sense door process has all dealt with present > objects only and after this, we return to the bhavangas. I think this is > an abrupt thing, with no specially named functions between. The > physical/sense-door thought process ending point depends on the initial > impact/atita moment, which may be atiparitta/very slight (mogha vara), > paritta/slight (votthapana vara) or mahanta/great (javana vara) or > atimahanta/very great (tadalambana vara). If it had been a mind door > process ending with the javana, the object was avibhuta/obscure; if > after the tadarammana(s), vibhuta/clear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This thread of reasoning must to be followed up with attention. where kamma produces impulsion, Kusala or akusala consciousness can arise ( see javana ): perhaps such process could be really an abrupt one, due this original Kammic way to come forth. Tadaramana suggests a step-by-step chain of impulses of consciousness, but doesn't disdain jumps between phases: Manodvaravajjana to Sampaticchana or santirana, for example. Mettaya, Ícaro > > peace, > connie 29220 From: Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:27pm Subject: rupa questions Hi Nina, I am becoming more and more bewildered by rupas and abhidhamma in general. So here are a few questions. 1. How many kinds of rupa can only be cognized through the mind door? 2. Who cognizes all these mind-door rupas? 3. Do you cognize tangible data through the body door; for example something that is both hard and cold? If yes, how does consciousness separate what is inseparable and cognize one after the other (hard then cold)? Is a separate coldness an ultimate reality? 4. Is taste an ultimate reality or only part of the inseparable pure octad, or are there two tastes, one a 5-door object and the other, part of a rupa only cognized through the mind-door (the pure-8)? 5. What is the difference between 5-door consciousness and the understanding (panna) of a 5-door object? Understanding is characterized as *penetrating* the distinctive nature (sabhava) of a reality. What is the difference between hearing sound and understanding sound by means of panna, for example? [I'm not interested in the 3 general characteristics here, only the specific characteristic (sabhava).] Larry 29221 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:57pm Subject: Re: Heart base Hi Robert K. and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Sorry for the delay in replying. > All pasada rupas are kammasamutthana, produced by kamma. Not by > citta or utu or ahara. However there are always other conditions > that affect the main condition in various ways. > robertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Robert K, > > > > Thank you very much for your effort and I am happy with heart > base. > > But here a question arises. > > > > Do Pasada Rupa solely caused by Kamma or are also caused by others? > > > > With much respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > - > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > > Dear Htoo, > > > > > But the eyes, ears and so forth - these organs where the > > > pasada > > > arises still exist, are still visible, because they are not > > > conditioned solely by kamma. And certainly they can act as a > > > support for new pasada rupa -conditioned by anothers kamma. > > > That > > > is why transplants can work. If this is still not clear please > > > ask more as these subtle points where conventional ideas and > > > the > > > sublime Dhamma intersect can show us much about the clinging > > > that there is to concept and story. > > > > > > >robert I am finding this discussion of Heartbase rather dull and lifeless. I am interested in some various areas of Heartbase, and perhaps these are not Abhidhamma related: 1.In what way is Heartbase related to metta and compassion? 2.Can the supporting factors of Heartbase be transferred from one person to another? (As in `Metta Meditation'?) 3.How is Heartbase a supporting factor for wisdom? 4.Can Heartbase be strengthened by various types of music? (Since it isn't citta dependent). 5.What are some ways to strengthen Heartbase so as to more naturally practice renunciation? I hope these aren't too many questions and let me know if I am barking up the wrong tree here. I would like some practical applications of the rupa of Heartbase. Metta, James 29222 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness Hello Andrew, Yes, I believe Sobhana Cittas could arise in the following situations that you describe. Given that anything can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta, I don't see why the sound of someone's voice or their perceived action cannot be a condition. Not sure what you mean here by 'the prompting of BC' Are you talking about one of the 8 types of maha-kusala-cittas e.g. 'accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted.'? If so, there is a chapter in Nina's ADL called The Sobhana Cittas in our Life. Of course, you're not suggesting that you can prompt the arising of a Beautiful Consciousness, are you Andrew??? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. ps. what is TIA - medically it means 'transient ischaemic attack'!! a.k.a fainting. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi everyone > Can anyone point me in the right direction for finding out more about > the prompting of Beautiful Consciousness? Can BC be prompted by the > Wrong Speech or Wrong Action of another? TIA > Metta > Andrew 29223 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:40am Subject: Sotaapanno Hi All In the Puggala-Pannatti there is this > --- 47. What sort of person is a "stream-attainer", and what sort of person is one striving for realization of the fruition stage? A person who is working for putting away the three fetters is one working for the realization of the fruition stage of a "stream- attainer"; The person whose three fetters have been put away is said to be a "stream-attainer." --- However i read this it seems to say that the one "working for the realization of the fruition stage of a stream=attainer" is someone who has not yet "put away the three fetters" and as such has not yet become a stream-attainer? Any comments? Steve Pali>> Katamo ca puggalo sotaapanno sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno? Ti.n.na.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya pa.tipanno puggalo sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno. Yassa puggalassa tii.ni sa.myojanaani pahiinaani- aya.m vuccati puggalo "sotaapanno". Atthakatha> Sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipannaadiniddesaa uttaanatthaava. 29224 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:15am Subject: Re: Heart base --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K. and Nina, >> I am finding this discussion of Heartbase rather dull and lifeless. > I am interested in some various areas of Heartbase, and perhaps these > are not Abhidhamma related: > > 1.In what way is Heartbase related to metta and compassion? > 2.Can the supporting factors of Heartbase be transferred from one > person to another? (As in `Metta Meditation'?) > 3.How is Heartbase a supporting factor for wisdom? > 4.Can Heartbase be strengthened by various types of music? (Since it > isn't citta dependent). > 5.What are some ways to strengthen Heartbase so as to more naturally > practice renunciation? > > I hope these aren't too many questions and let me know if I am > barking up the wrong tree here. I would like some practical > applications of the rupa of Heartbase. -------------- Dear James Glad to see your recent interest in the details of Abhidhamma. All the other sense bases- the eyebase, earbase , tongue base, bodybase, nose base are said to have a dominating(indriya) effect on the consciousness that arises at each base. So if the eyebase is in poor condition - then the eyeconsciousness (cakkhuvinnana) that arises there will likewise be weak (manda). This doesn't apply to the heart base- it is not indriya- and perhaps this is of interest. Perhaps we have the idea that when we are sickly that sati can't arise like when we are in full health - To me knowing how heartbase is not an indriya I take it that the state of the body cannot (necessarily) hinder sati. With regard to metta it is again irrelevant about the state of the rupa. It is simply a place where most mental processes occur. I think good music gives pleasure - pleasant feeling . And even pleasant feeling associated with lobha can be healthy. The one associated with alobha is even better. There is no way to transfer any part of the heartbase to another because it is produced by ones own kamma. But when we have goodwill to another this at least is giving the gift of freedom from fear. it is worthwhile. Robk 29225 From: Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness Hi, Azita - In a message dated 1/20/04 3:58:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Given that anything can be a condition for the arising of > kusala citta, I don't see why the sound of someone's voice or their > perceived action cannot be a condition. > ======================== Could you please clarify what you mean by "anything can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta." It's not so that any conditions can arise randomly fromany conditions; so i must be missing your intended meaning here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29226 From: Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno Hi, Steve - In a message dated 1/20/04 5:42:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, seisen_@h... writes: > > Hi All > In the Puggala-Pannatti there is this > > --- > 47. What sort of person is a "stream-attainer", and what sort of > person is one striving for realization of the fruition stage? > > A person who is working for putting away the three fetters is one > working for the realization of the fruition stage of a "stream- > attainer"; The person whose three fetters have been put away is said > to be a "stream-attainer." > --- > > However i read this it seems to say that the one "working for the > realization of the fruition stage of a stream=attainer" is someone > who has not yet "put away the three fetters" and as such has not yet > become a stream-attainer? > > Any comments? > > > Steve > =========================== I understand what you are saying, and it certainly does sound so. One question, I suppose, is how to interpret the phrase "working for." But I see no basis for understanding that "working for" as something normally taking no time at all. It sounds like a conventional endeavor - in fact, the endeavor that a serious, but still fully fettered practitioner engages in as a follower of the Buddha. However, it doesn't seem reasonable to identify such an ordinary person as a "stream enterer." The "solution" that suggests itself to me is that when there is the experience of stream-entering path consciousness (SEPC), that taste of nibbana is only preparatory for the uprooting of the three fetters, and a subsequent draught at the well, the fruition of the seeds planted at the moment of path consciusness, namely stream-entering fruition consciousness (SEFC), is what uproots the fetters. With that understanding, an "initial stream-enterer" has entered the stream but has not yet undergone the consequences of that, those requiring another taste of nibbana. If that "solution" is correct, then another question that arises is whether following upon the fruition of stream entry, one is still just a stream enterer (needing another path consciousness to become a once returner) or whether the stream-entry fruition consciousness also constitutes the once-returner path consciousness. That is, are only five distinct "nibbanic experiences" required, so that we have the following: Worldling working for [(1) Stream-entry path consciousness (SEPC)] --> SE working for [(2) SEFC = (3) ORPC] (fetters uprooted) --> OR working for [(4) RFC = (5) NRPC] (fetters uprooted) --> NR working for [(6) NRFC = (7) APC] (fetters uprooted) --> Arahant working for [(8) AFC] (fetters uprooted, final & complete liberation attained) An alternative, more traditional scheme would be the following: _____________________________________ Worldling working for (1) SEPC ----> SE working for (2) SEFC (fetters uprooted) ----> SE working for (3) ORPC ----> OR working for (4) ORFC (fetters uprooted) ----> OR working for (5) NRPC ----> NR working for (6) NRFC (fetters uprooted) ----> NR working for (7) APC ----> Arahant working for (8) AFC (fetters uprooted, final and complete liberation attained). --------------------------------------------------------------- If either of the above two schemes are correct, one might then wonder whether the state of the arahant after APC but before AFC could be identified with "nibbana with remainder", and the state of the arahant after AFC with "nibbana without remainder"! (That would be a different interpretation than the standard one, of course.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29227 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions Hi Larry, Thanks for your well directed questions. Also good for Sarah's crowded list. Meanwhile, I have a go at it. You are right, we should frequently return to all rupas. op 20-01-2004 02:27 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > I am becoming more and more bewildered by rupas and abhidhamma in > general. So here are a few questions. > > 1. How many kinds of rupa can only be cognized through the mind door? N: Let us start with the gross rupas: twelve kinds of rúpa are gross: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and the three great elements which are tangible object (excluding cohesion), as well as the five sense-organs. They are gross because of impinging; visible object impinges on the eyesense, sound impinges on the earsense, and each of the other sense objects impinges on the appropriate sense-base. Of these gross rupas, the sense organs are only experienced through the mind-door. The other sixteen kinds of rúpa are subtle. What is subtle is called ³far² because it is difficult to penetrate, whereas what is gross is called ³near², because it is easy to penetrate (Vis. XIV, 73). Thus, sixteen rupas + 5 senseorgans are only experienced through the mind-door. L: 2. Who cognizes all these mind-door rupas? N: Who has fully developed insight. As you see, difficult to penetrate. We should not say, impossible. However, what is relatively easier is already difficult. L: 3. Do you cognize tangible data through the body door; for example > something that is both hard and cold? If yes, how does consciousness > separate what is inseparable and cognize one after the other (hard then > cold)? Is a separate coldness an ultimate reality? N: Hardness may appear, but cold, though it is present in the octad, cannot appear at the same time. This can and should be checked: only one reality can be experienced at a time. This does not mean that there is sati, sati cannot come on command. But understanding that only one object is experienced at a time is an important foundation for sati. This is pariyatti, understanding of the level of thinking and reflecting. We begin to know what an ultimate reality is. We have learnt that the hardness arises in a group of 8 rupas, but only one can be experienced at a time, thus, not the accompanying 7. They all fall away together immediately. It is still useful to know about the group of 8, because we can understand more the different conditions. The element of earth or solidity appears as hardness or softness. More hard or more soft, different degrees. The accompanying rupas condition it to be like that. But, there is no need to think about all that. We cannot understand hardness by focussing on it, then we speculate. But when we are not aiming for it, just hardness can appear during the day. Thus, citta does not separate at all, it merely experiences one object, one characteristic. At another moment there may be conditions for another citta to experience cold, then no hardness is experienced. They all fall away immediately. Cittas fall away, the octads fall away. All rupas are ultimate realities, they are not concepts. A long term project before we really understand this. Through satipatthana, no other way. L: 4. Is taste an ultimate reality or only part of the inseparable pure > octad, N: All rupas of an inseparable pure octad are ultimate realities, but only one at a time appears and can be experienced by citta. L: or are there two tastes, one a 5-door object and the other, part > of a rupa only cognized through the mind-door (the pure-8)? N: The rupa flavour is experienced by cittas in a sense-door process and after that that rupa is experienced through the mind-door. The mind-door process follows in the stream. This happens all the time, but cittas are so fast that we do not notice this. Only at the first stage of tender insight this becomes clear. So it cannot be said that there are two tastes. As said, taste is accompanied by the other 7 inseparable rupas, but no need to think about them, they are not experienced. They condition flavours to be so different. There is not just one flavour or a neutral flavour. Apple flavour is different from doughnut flavour. sour is not sweet. It is the same in the case of colour, there is not one neutral colour. And they all appear. L: 5. What is the difference between 5-door consciousness and the > understanding (panna) of a 5-door object? Understanding is characterized > as *penetrating* the distinctive nature (sabhava) of a reality. What is > the difference between hearing sound and understanding sound by means of > panna, for example? [I'm not interested in the 3 general characteristics > here, only the specific characteristic (sabhava).] N: A. Sujin answered this in Cambodia when someone asked this question: what does panna know arising in a sense-door process. Also the kusala javana cittas in a sense-door process can be accompanied or unaccompanied by panna. When the first stage of tender insight arises nama and rupa are experienced through the mind-door, and they are clearly distinguished by panna in a mind-door process. At such moments there are many processes with panna, and a rupa that is penetrated by panna has to arise in a sense-door process before it is experienced through the mind-door. All these processes alternate very quickly, they are not counted as A. Sujin said. Thus, it is understandable that there must be panna also accompanying the javana cittas in sense-door processes. Specific characteristics are certainly known by panna in a sense-door process. But these are not taken for self. It is clearly realized that nama and rupa are not self, at such moments. But insight falls away, the world appears as usual, and one has to go on developing insight untiringly. L: > I am becoming more and more bewildered by rupas and abhidhamma in > general. N: Returning to your first question. This can only be solved by satipatthana, even if it is only a beginning of it. This means, not only rupa should be studied but also nama. If we have no idea of nama, we cannot grasp rupa either: the reality that does not experience anything, as different from the reality that experiences something. In Bgk we listen again to A. Sujin reminding us that seeing only sees what appears through the eyes, different from defining what you see. Hardness is a rupa, but the experience of hardness is nama. Listening and reflection is the foundation of beginning to be aware, but without trying, focussing, wishing to know with lobha. Sound appears, it is heard. There are sound and hearing, but there can be awareness of one at a time. There can be another citta accompanied by panna, and then panna can understand sound as rupa or hearing as nama. Gradually there can be less doubt about coarse rupas and then our outlook can change, also with regard to all those subtle rupas we cannot experience. For instance heartbase. We may see that it is an important, indispensable condition for citta. Since we are born in this plane we are nama and rupa, and how could citta arise without a physical base? We can see the value of also understanding (I do not mean direct understanding) those rupas we cannot experience. All these rupas perform functions. Such understanding is a foundation for slowly wearing away doubt and wrong view. It is understandable that doubt arises when there are many rupas we cannot observe. Then we can consider all the other Dhamma subjects that only a Buddha can teach: about types of kusala, about defilements in detail such as lobha, conceit etc. We should see the connection with the Suttanta and the Vinaya, thus not isolate the Abhidhamma from the whole of the teachings. The Abhidhamma gives more details about what is basically taught in the Suttanta. Then there are the commentaries who give more explanations of what is in the Tipitaka, of Abhidhamma and vipassana. The Suttanta teaches also about the five khandhas, which always arise and fall away together. Thus, when there is the khandha of consciousness there is also rupakkhandha. Citta cannot arise without rupa. This makes again understandable the necessity of the heartbase and the other physical bases. Life-faculty: Sarah quoted a sutta. Space and nutrition, threads still running with Howard, I shall return to, later on. There is enough that we can verify for ourselves in our own life, at least intellectually. We can find out that these things are truly beneficial for us personally. Nina. 29228 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:16am Subject: Latent tendencies Ch1, no 8. Latent tendencies Ch1, no 8. We read in the ³Expositor² (I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the threefold training and the three levels of defilements: ³In the Vinaya-Pitaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama kilesa); in the Suttanta-Pitaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions (defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyutthåna kilesa ); in the Abhidhamma-Pitaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pitaka there is a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and extirping by the Path. In the first Pitaka the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption of craving and wrong views...² The ³Såratthadípaní², the Subcommentary to the ³Samantapåsådikå², on the ³Inception of Discipline² gives an additional explanation. We read: ³As to the expression, the abandoning of the defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), this refers to the abandoning of transgressions through the body-door and through the door of speech, thus, to the abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) and defilements [16]. The defilements that persist as a powerful condition in the continuous stream of cittas cause the arising of defilements with akusala citta and, even though they are disturbing, they do not violate morality in the sense of causing transgressions. Therefore, the teachers said, ³morality is opposed to transgressions.² As regards the abandoning of medium defilements one is possessed with (pariyutthåna kilesa), medium defilements ruin and destroy what is wholesome since they have the power to give opportunity for akusala. This is explained as follows: the abandoning of medium defilements means the abandoning of the defilements that are disturbing because they arise in the succession of cittas. As to the expression, the abandoning of the latent tendencies, latent tendencies are the defilements that lie dormant in the continuous stream of cittas since they cannot be eradicated yet, and they are to be eradicated successively. These defilements can arise because of the appropriate conditions, and they are called latent tendencies [17]. There are seven defilements which are latent tendencies and these defilements can arise when the conditions are appropriate, such as sensuous desire. The abandoning of these seven defilements is called the eradication of the latent tendencies. The factor of the eightfold Path which is wisdom can completely eradicate them.Therefore the teachers said that wisdom is opposed to the latent tendencies. Footnotes 16. Abandoning the transgression of síla by the observance of síla. 17. Latent tendencies themselves do not arise, but they are the condition for the arising of defilements with akusala cittas. *** Nina. 29229 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno Hello Howard and Steve, I heard the following explanation from Bhante G: Stream entry path: when any of the three fetters (personality view, doubt, adherence to rites and rituals) is uprooted. That is, one is uprooted and the other two may still be fully present or in a weakened state. Stream entry fruition: when all three fetters have been uprooted. The same logic applies to the other levels. Metta Michael >From: upasaka@a... >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:49:44 EST > >Hi, Steve - > >In a message dated 1/20/04 5:42:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, >seisen_@h... writes: > > > > > Hi All > > In the Puggala-Pannatti there is this > > > --- > > 47. What sort of person is a "stream-attainer", and what sort of > > person is one striving for realization of the fruition stage? > > > > A person who is working for putting away the three fetters is one > > working for the realization of the fruition stage of a "stream- > > attainer"; The person whose three fetters have been put away is said > > to be a "stream-attainer." > > --- > > > > However i read this it seems to say that the one "working for the > > realization of the fruition stage of a stream=attainer" is someone > > who has not yet "put away the three fetters" and as such has not yet > > become a stream-attainer? > > > > Any comments? > > > > > > Steve > > >=========================== > I understand what you are saying, and it certainly does sound so. >One >question, I suppose, is how to interpret the phrase "working for." But I >see >no basis for understanding that "working for" as something normally taking >no >time at all. It sounds like a conventional endeavor - in fact, the endeavor >that a serious, but still fully fettered practitioner engages in as a >follower of >the Buddha. However, it doesn't seem reasonable to identify such an >ordinary >person as a "stream enterer." > The "solution" that suggests itself to me is that when there is the >experience of stream-entering path consciousness (SEPC), that taste of >nibbana >is only preparatory for the uprooting of the three fetters, and a >subsequent >draught at the well, the fruition of the seeds planted at the moment of >path >consciusness, namely stream-entering fruition consciousness (SEFC), is what >uproots the fetters. With that understanding, an "initial stream-enterer" >has >entered the stream but has not yet undergone the consequences of that, >those >requiring another taste of nibbana. > If that "solution" is correct, then another question that arises is >whether following upon the fruition of stream entry, one is still just a >stream >enterer (needing another path consciousness to become a once returner) or >whether the stream-entry fruition consciousness also constitutes the >once-returner >path consciousness. That is, are only five distinct "nibbanic experiences" >required, so that we have the following: > >Worldling working for >[(1) Stream-entry path consciousness (SEPC)] --> >SE working for >[(2) SEFC = (3) ORPC] (fetters uprooted) --> >OR working for >[(4) RFC = (5) NRPC] (fetters uprooted) --> >NR working for >[(6) NRFC = (7) APC] (fetters uprooted) --> >Arahant working for >[(8) AFC] (fetters uprooted, final & complete >liberation >attained) > > An alternative, more traditional scheme would be the following: >_____________________________________ >Worldling working for >(1) SEPC ----> >SE working for >(2) SEFC (fetters uprooted) ----> >SE working for >(3) ORPC ----> >OR working for >(4) ORFC (fetters uprooted) ----> >OR working for >(5) NRPC ----> >NR working for >(6) NRFC (fetters uprooted) ----> >NR working for >(7) APC ----> >Arahant working for >(8) AFC (fetters uprooted, final and complete liberation attained). >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > If either of the above two schemes are correct, one might then >wonder >whether the state of the arahant after APC but before AFC could be >identified >with "nibbana with remainder", and the state of the arahant after AFC with >"nibbana without remainder"! (That would be a different interpretation than >the >standard one, of course.) > >With metta, >Howard 29230 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: Heart base Hi Rob K, Thank you for taking the time and the effort to answer my questions, I appreciate it. Rob: Glad to see your recent interest in the details of Abhidhamma. James: I'm glad that you're glad. ;-) But, don't get too excited and throw a celebration party just yet! ;-) I am simply trying to better understand the beliefs of my good friends here and being open minded about such. Rob: All the other sense bases- the eyebase, earbase , tongue base, bodybase, nose base are said to have a dominating(indriya) effect on the consciousness that arises at each base. So if the eyebase is in poor condition - then the eyeconsciousness (cakkhuvinnana) that arises there will likewise be weak (manda). James: Okay, no offense, but this sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. Call it conditioning by my educational background or whatever but I think that you are taking the idea of the sense bases far too literally. A consciousness that arises in my eye? Are you serious? I could just imagine if I went to an ophthalmologist and he told me, "I am afraid that your eyebase is in poor condition and therefore the eyeconsciousness is weak. This eyeconsciousness is only partially entering your mind door." I would think that maybe his `mind door' was locked and someone had thrown away the key! ;-)) Don't you think these are rather outdated, pre-scientific theories of sense cognition? These ideas do not match up with any of the known facts of the modern, scientific world. But, most importantly, what does any of this have to do with dukkha and the elimination of dukkha? These are quaint ideas but I think it is important to keep going back to this question constantly. Rob: This doesn't apply to the heart base- it is not indriya- and perhaps this is of interest. Perhaps we have the idea that when we are sickly that sati can't arise like when we are in full health - To me knowing how heartbase is not an indriya I take it that the state of the body cannot (necessarily) hinder sati. James: Well, being sick doesn't just affect your heart, it affects all of your senses and your brain. I think that being sick can hinder sati of outside sensory input. However, there can be sati of the effects of the sickness while one is sick. In other words, if you have a runny nose it will be difficult to have sati of smells but it won't be difficult to have sati of the runny nose itself (unless of course you are on some sort of cold medicine that is disrupting your sensory impressions and then the sati can be of that effect, possibly.) Rob: With regard to metta it is again irrelevant about the state of the rupa. It is simply a place where most mental processes occur. James: I don't understand you because you have an unidentified pronoun. Which `it' is simply a place where most mental processes occur? In metta or in rupa? I didn't think that mental processes occur in either one so could you clarify? Rob: I think good music gives pleasure - pleasant feeling . And even pleasant feeling associated with lobha can be healthy. The one associated with alobha is even better. James: You have an unidentified pronoun again. Which `one' associated with alobha is even better? Music, pleasant feeling, or lobha? I can't follow you. Rob: There is no way to transfer any part of the heartbase to another because it is produced by ones own kamma. James: Well, I'm sure there are some heart surgeons who would disagree with this. ;-). I don't think you understanding my question. I am not talking about the physical structure of the heart, I am talking about the `energy' that is present at the heartbase. Can that `energy' be transferred from one person to another (as in `Metta Meditation')? Rob: But when we have goodwill to another this at least is giving the gift of freedom from fear. It is worthwhile. James: I like this phrase! I am not entirely sure what you mean but for some reason it resonates with me. I will leave it at that. Metta, James 29231 From: Eddie Lou Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Angulimala Hi, Teoh, Can please list the 5 unpardonable ? Thanks, Eddie Lou. --- teoh chee keam wrote: > Kalyanamitta, > > Angulimala managed to get attainment in that very ...[snipped].... > Angulimala is a perfect example for those in doubt > after repenting from their unwholesome deeds in the > past, no matter how great is the kamma(except the 5 > unpardonable). > > Vijita Teoh. 29232 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:00pm Subject: Re: Heart base Hello James (and RobK) and all, Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to 35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and eye base. See what you think .. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 29233 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:26pm Subject: Re: Heart base Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello James (and RobK) and all, > > Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to > 35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and eye base. > See what you think .. Thanks for the reference. What I think is what I thought previously (but I am willing to stand corrected): the Abhidhamma has created a classification of the sense bases that is pseudo-scientific and is not supported by the suttas. Eye consciousness does not arise in the physical structure of the eye. In this day and age, it is simply ridiculous to believe such a thing. Take dreaming for example, during dreaming visual consciousness arises and the eyes are closed. Sensory consciousness only arises in the brain, not in the rupa structures of the sense organs. For example, there have been experiments where electrical stimulation of certain areas of the brain will cause people to see, hear, smell, feel, and taste things that aren't actually present in their physical environment. The same thing happens during dreaming. What did you 'see' in this reference? ;-) > > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, James 29234 From: Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno Hi, Michael (and Steve) - In a message dated 1/20/04 3:24:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Hello Howard and Steve, > > I heard the following explanation from Bhante G: > Stream entry path: when any of the three fetters (personality view, doubt, > adherence to rites and rituals) is uprooted. That is, one is uprooted and > the other two may still be fully present or in a weakened state. > Stream entry fruition: when all three fetters have been uprooted. > > The same logic applies to the other levels. > > Metta > Michael > ========================== That's interesting. It makes some sense. Of course, what the actual facts are we don't know. I wonder what the "official story" is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29235 From: Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions Hi Nina, Thanks for your answers. Here are a few more questions. 1. Mind-door rupas are only experienced by those who have fully developed insight, but all those rupas could be objects of attachment for those with fully developed insight, but not for anyone else, correct? 2. If a pure octad (4 primaries, taste, color, smell, nutritive essence) is only cognized through the mind-door, what is tasted through the taste-door? 3. Why develop insight into subtle realities if we could understand that concepts are non-arising, not impermanent, not dukkha, not self? 4. Only one reality is experienced at a time, but "in reality" many realities arise at the same time. So, isn't the experience of one reality at a time unrealistic? 5. In the 3 modes of knowing (perception, consciousness, understanding (panna)), consciousness knows the 3 general characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, not self) while panna knows the distinguishing characteristic (sabhava) is impermanent, dukkha, not self. Does this mean the knowing of consciousness has a concept for an object? 6. Would you say that tangible data is the only reality in all of nama and rupa that ordinary people are even remotely capable of experiencing realistically? 7. Can you say without doubt no noble one realized nibbana with a concept as object? Larry 29236 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno Hi Steve, op 20-01-2004 11:40 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > In the Puggala-Pannatti there is this > > --- > 47. What sort of person is a "stream-attainer", and what sort of > person is one striving for realization of the fruition stage? > > A person who is working for putting away the three fetters is one > working for the realization of the fruition stage of a "stream- > attainer"; The person whose three fetters have been put away is said > to be a "stream-attainer." N: you remember we had this question before. The Pali has: sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno. We have to think of cittas, not of persons, this is in this context of four pairs of enlightened ones. One moment of lokuttara citta: the path is realized, next moment of lokuttara citta the fruition :sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanno: reached the realization of the fruition of the sotapanna. Fruition follows immediately upon path-consciousness, but they are still different moments of citta. Don't you think so? In the context of persons, in conventional sense, there are four noble persons. Different context. >S: However i read this it seems to say that the one "working for the > realization of the fruition stage of a stream=attainer" is someone > who has not yet "put away the three fetters" and as such has not yet > become a stream-attainer? N: The translation working for is not clear. the Pali: pa.tipanno: pa.tipajjati: to go along a path. Jon has explained this before. Nina. 29237 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: Heart base --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > Rob: All the other sense bases- the eyebase, earbase , tongue base, > bodybase, nose base are said to have a dominating(indriya) effect on > the consciousness that arises at each base. So if the eyebase is in > poor condition - then the eyeconsciousness (cakkhuvinnana) that > arises there will likewise be weak (manda). > > James: Okay, no offense, but this sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo > to me. Call it conditioning by my educational background or whatever > but I think that you are taking the idea of the sense bases far too > literally. A consciousness that arises in my eye? Are you serious? > I could just imagine if I went to an ophthalmologist and he told > me, "I am afraid that your eyebase is in poor condition and therefore > the eyeconsciousness is weak. This eyeconsciousness is only > partially entering your mind door." I would think that maybe > his `mind door' was locked and someone had thrown away the key! ;- )) > Don't you think these are rather outdated, pre-scientific theories of > sense cognition? These ideas do not match up with any of the known > facts of the modern, scientific world. But, most importantly, what > does any of this have to do with dukkha and the elimination of > dukkha? These are quaint ideas but I think it is important to keep > going back to this question constantly. > _____ Dear James, As you indicate part of the reason we react to different ideas is our background. My background leads me to perceive science as ignorant when it comes to ideas about mind. Maybe the eyeconsciousness is difficult to understand so take bodyconsciouness instead. This type of consciousness can arise wherever there is the subtle pasada rupa that is its support. For example can you feel a sensation where your foot is resting on the floor? If so that consciousness is arising there, not in the head. -------- > > > Rob: With regard to metta it is again irrelevant about the state of > the > rupa. It is simply a place where most mental processes occur. > > James: I don't understand you because you have an unidentified > pronoun. Which `it' is simply a place where most mental processes > occur? In metta or in rupa? I didn't think that mental processes > occur in either one so could you clarify? _______ "It" refers to rupa in the passage above. > > Rob: I think good music gives pleasure - pleasant feeling . And even > pleasant feeling associated with lobha can be healthy. The one > associated with alobha is even better. > > James: You have an unidentified pronoun again. Which `one' > associated with alobha is even better? Music, pleasant feeling, or > lobha? I can't follow you. _____ I meant the pleasant feeling associated with alobha is better than the pleasant feeling associated with lobha. -------- > > Rob: There is no way to transfer any part of the heartbase to another > because it is produced by ones own kamma. > > James: Well, I'm sure there are some heart surgeons who would > disagree with this. ;-). I don't think you understanding my > question. I am not talking about the physical structure of the > heart, I am talking about the `energy' that is present at the > heartbase. Can that `energy' be transferred from one person to > another (as in `Metta Meditation')? _______ If I feel friendly to someone (have metta) it is almost none of their business. If they dont like me or even if they dont like me feeling friendly to them it cant stop me having metta. Can they feel my metta? Sometimes they may sense it and this might change their atttituded in a favourable way. But I dont think there is any actual transfer of my metta (or heart base). RobK 29238 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:41pm Subject: Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Hello Andrew, > > Yes, I believe Sobhana Cittas could arise in the following > situations that you describe. > Given that anything can be a condition for the arising of > kusala citta, I don't see why the sound of someone's voice or their > perceived action cannot be a condition. > > Not sure what you mean here by 'the prompting of BC' Are you > talking about one of the 8 types of maha-kusala-cittas e.g. > 'accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted.'? If > so, there is a chapter in Nina's ADL called The Sobhana Cittas in our > Life. > > Of course, you're not suggesting that you can prompt the > arising of a Beautiful Consciousness, are you Andrew??? > Hi Azita I have misplaced my ADL but it will turn up soon, no doubt. I wanted some more information than is in the CMA which says on p 36: "... prompting may be imposed by others, or it may originate from within oneself; the means employed may be bodily, verbal or purely mental. The instigation is bodily when someone induces us by bodily means to give rise to particular types of consciousness which may issue in corresponding actions. It is verbal when the means employed is another's command or power of persuasion. And it is mental when, either by reflection or the determination of the will, we make a deliberate endeavour, despite inner resistance, to generate certain types of consciousness. Prompting can be associated with either unwholesome or wholesome states of consciousness ..." Your question - can I prompt BC? Well, BC can be prompted by "deliberate endeavour" it seems. This is where we get into the conventional/ultimate discourse muddles. How would you phrase it? > > ps. what is TIA - medically it means 'transient ischaemic attack'!! > a.k.a fainting. You medical people think you have a monopoly on abbreviations!! (Ha, ha, ha). TIA = thanks in advance (as I use it). I hear you're getting some rain at long last? Enjoy it. Metta Andrew 29239 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base Hi Christine Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA. kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello James (and RobK) and all, > > Have a look at p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II, the notes to > > 35 Salaayatanasamyutta. Note 3 has some info on eye and eye base. > See what you think .. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 29240 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:00pm Subject: Re: Heart base Hi Rob K, Rob: As you indicate part of the reason we react to different ideas is our background. My background leads me to perceive science as ignorant when it comes to ideas about mind. James: Hmmm…what sort of background did you have? Were you raised in a Somalian hut? ;-)) (just kidding). Science isn't perfect but I would say that ideas about the physical operation of the mind and the body are far more advanced today than during the Buddha's time. Rob: Maybe the eyeconsciousness is difficult to understand so take bodyconsciouness instead. This type of consciousness can arise wherever there is the subtle pasada rupa that is its support. For example can you feel a sensation where your foot is resting on the floor? If so that consciousness is arising there, not in the head. James: I'm sorry Rob, but no consciousness arises in the foot. This is an absurd idea. Kinesthetic awareness/intelligence only gives the impression that consciousness arises in the foot. It only seems this way because there is subtle clinging to the body as a whole as being `mine' and occupying space and time. If you practiced insight meditation you would soon see that all consciousnesses arise in the mind. When clinging to the body has ceased as being mine and occupying space, there is no more duality between the mind and the body. This is proven through insight meditation and medical science. For example, for several years after people have a limb removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are just `openings' for the outside stimulus. Rob: If I feel friendly to someone (have metta) it is almost none of their business. If they dont like me or even if they dont like me feeling friendly to them it cant stop me having metta. Can they feel my metta? Sometimes they may sense it and this might change their atttituded in a favourable way. But I dont think there is any actual transfer of my metta (or heart base). James: Okay, this is your opinion. I was wondering if the Abhidhamma spoke to this issue but apparently not. Metta, James 29241 From: Sarah Date: Tue Jan 20, 2004 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno Hi Howard, (Michael & Steve). --- upasaka@a... wrote: M: > > I heard the following explanation from Bhante G: > > Stream entry path: when any of the three fetters (personality view, > doubt, > > adherence to rites and rituals) is uprooted. That is, one is uprooted > and > > the other two may still be fully present or in a weakened state. > > Stream entry fruition: when all three fetters have been uprooted. > > > > The same logic applies to the other levels. > > > > Metta > > Michael > > > ========================== H: > That's interesting. It makes some sense. Of course, what the > actual > facts are we don't know. I wonder what the "official story" is. ..... 'Official story': All 3 fetters uprooted at same time by stream entry path consciousness. Vism XV11, 245 "And here (false) view clinging, etc [S: right and ritual clinging, self view, see 243] are abandoned first because they are eliminated by the path of stream-entry. Sense-desire clinging is abandoned later because it is abandoned by the path of Arahantship. This is the order of their abandoning. Steve & Howard, also see XX1, 75, 1)'he becomes a faith devotee at the moment of the stream-entry path' [S: doubts about the path eradicated, unshakable confidence in Triple Gem]; and in the other seven instances (that is, in the three higher paths and the four fruitions) he becomes 2) one liberated by faith. [S: starting with stream entry fruition consciousness]. Vism XX11, 15 "Immediately next to that knowledge (stream-entry path consciousness), however, there arise either two or three fruition consciousnesses, which are its result. for it is owing to ths very fact that supramundane profitable [consciousness] results immediately that it is said, 'And which he called the concentration with immediate result' (Sn226), and 'slugishly he reaches what has immediate result for the destruction of the cankers' (A ii, 149), and so on..... .........18 "And at this point this stream-enterer is called the second noble person. However negligent he may be, he is bound to make an end of suffering when he has travelled and traversed the round of rebirths among deities and human beings for the seventh time." As Nina reminded us, we are discussing cittas and accompanying mental factors which take nibbana as object. No person, no stream-enterer in reality. Metta, Sarah p.s Further posts on stream-entry which *may* be useful for others: Sotapanna (Stream-winner) 17758, 24298, 25412, 26406, 26438, 27778 ================================= 29242 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base Hi James, I understand your concerns and confusion. Just butting in and out quickly here. --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I was wondering if the Abhidhamma > spoke to this issue but apparently not. .... Just briefly, in sutta translations we often see phrases such as: ‘nourish the heart’, (Nakulapita Sutta, SN22:1,Thanissaro transl) ‘that’s how you develop the heart’, (Bhaddekeratta Sutta, MN131, Thanissaro) ‘devoted to that quietude of heart’, (Samanna Phala sutta, Rhys-Davids) ‘’freedom from barrenness and bondage of heart’ (Ketokhila Sutta, Rhys-Davids) ‘My heart leaped up at neither pleasure nor pain, grew serene.’(Tapussa Sutta, ?) ‘would his heart stand fast’ (Lohikka Sutta, ?) ‘the Order with believing heart can reap’ (Mahaparinibbana sutta. ?) ***** I just got these few examples quickly from google ‘heart, sutta, form’ - I haven’t checked all the translators or detail, but you can. These are all very ‘free’ translations of the Pali which have nothing whatsoever to do with pasada rupa (heart-base) being discussed. They are references in fact to citta and accompanying beautiful mental factors. To take just the first two as an example: 1.‘nourish the heart’, (Nakulapita Sutta) B.Bodhi gives ‘worthy of esteem’ (describing the Blessed One and the bhikkhus in the 2nd para). Note 2: “Manobhaavaniiyaa, used in apposition to bhikkhuu, has often been misinterpreted by translators to mean ‘developed mind’. However, the expression is a gerundive meaning literally ‘who should be brought to mind’, ie, who are worthy of esteem. Spk: ‘Those great elders such as Sariputta and Moggallana are called ‘worthy of esteem’ (‘to be brought to mind’) because the mind (citta) grows in wholesome qualities whenever they are seen.” 2.‘that’s how you develop the heart’, (Bhaddekeratta Sutta) B. Bodhi gives ‘Invincibly, unshakeably’ (describing the development of insight into present states) Note1213 “Asa’mhiira’m asankuppa’m. MA [S: MN comy] explains that this is said for the purpose of showing inight and repeated insight; for insight is ‘invincible, unshakeable’ because it is not vanquished or shaken by lust and other defilements.” ***** I hasten to add that I’m not commenting here on the rights and wrongs of translations, but merely trying to point out that our use of ‘heart’ in common language is very different from the meaning given not only in the Abhidhamma, but in the suttas as well. Metta, Sarah p.s As far as the Tipitaka is concerned, there is no seeing consciousness when we are dreaming with eyes closed. Visible object, eye-sense and eye-contact are essential for seeing. ================== 29243 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions Hi Larry & NIna, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your answers. Here are a few more questions. ... Larry, You're asking excellent Qs, imho, these days, Larry. Keep them up! Nina, my packing took less than an hour, rolling crushable beach gear into my back-pack. Accumulations for light and minimalist and no red slippers;-). The reading and papers is another matter. I spent a few hours organising Qs for Bkk (yours and mine mostly and a few others from the list, like James' recent good one -- certainly not silly -- about rebirth as devas or humans). So Azita, I have a special exercise book ready;-) Herman, I’m not a ‘guru’ person-- definitely not my accumulations. However, if our friends give us help and guidance and point out aspects of the Dhamma which we might fail or be slow to appreciate otherwise, I think it’s good to express our gratitude or share any help with others here if we can and if they wish. What d'ya reckon? Of course, many others have heard the same explanations in Bangkok or elsewhere and not returned for more, preferring other guidance or wishing to just self-explore. This is fine too. If our flight crashes, don't worry, we have contingency plans for DSG in place;-) In lieu of flowers, how about organising a translation of the Yamaka or a good article on kusala/akusala;-)?? Not good to joke on this subject. Hmmm...must be the packing. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina - Chuck is already in Bkk waiting;-) Shakti can’t make it - her husband is having surgery. If anyone wishes to contact me after tomorrow off-list, pls do so c/o Jon’s account or mods, as I won’t be checking my email accounts, but relying on print-outs of posts. Chris & All, we’re now confirmed staying at the P. ============================ 29244 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:01am Subject: Re: Heart base Hi Sarah, Sarah: I understand your concerns and confusion. Just butting in and out quickly here. James: Oh my goodness Sarah, I don't have `concerns and confusion' about this matter! LOL! I was simply asking a question and I have now gotten the answer I was seeking. The Abhidhamma gives only a superficial analysis of heart-base. No big deal and I don't plan on bringing it up again. (No reason to jump in and play my `therapist' ;- )) over the matter.) Sarah: These are all very `free' translations of the Pali which have nothing whatsoever to do with pasada rupa (heart-base) being discussed. They are references in fact to citta and accompanying beautiful mental factors. James: Well, at times the Buddha spoke about mind and at other times he spoke about heart. Granted, some of the Pali translations may be loose in this regard but I can usually spot a mistranslation by the context. I don't think that every reference to the heart is simply being metaphorical, I think that there is something more there, but I could be wrong about that. I am being open minded about the subject; I would suggest that you do the same. ;-)) Sarah: As far as the Tipitaka is concerned, there is no seeing consciousness when we are dreaming with eyes closed. Visible object, eye-sense and eye-contact are essential for seeing. James: First, I don't consider you an expert on the Tipitaka to make such an absolute statement. If you were a nun, passed your Pali exams, and had read and studied the entire Tipitaka with others who have done the same, then I would consider you an expert (heck, you even disagree with Bhikkhu Bodhi about meditation practice, a true expert of the Tipitaka if there ever was one.) Second, if it isn't seeing consciousness being activated while dreaming then what is it? I can practice lucid dreaming where I can experience visual consciousness, auditory consciousness, etc. and still have the consciousness of cognition and mental formations…and know that I am dreaming. Please, stop reading all of this stuff in all these commentaries, piecemeal, and look at your own experience to make determinations. What is written in books isn't the whole picture when it comes to reality. Metta, James 29245 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Angulimala revisited Hi Connie & all, --- connie wrote: > Hi Ken O, Christine (Azita) ~ > > Maybe Christine has more details, but I don't know to bribe her. I've > heard the Angulimala Meets Buddha part is very touching as well, but > don't have any further details to add. .... I think most of what there is is given in MN86. The commentaries don't add much more. Where was your scary Mongolian Jataka tale from? (Ken O, I don't think this was from the Pali canon). ... > I laughed, too, Christine. But the longest scary story still just might > be The Momentary Existence Saga. .... Connie, could you elaborate on your comments here. I think it could be useful. TIA (Azita, Jon explained to me that non-medically this means thx in advance, i.e if I thank now, I don't have to again when you write back to me;-)) Thx also for sharing the steps with Icaro;-) .... >Anyway, here's something fairly recent > from Mike Mailway's Seattle Times column .... Is this one of *our* Seattle Mike's casual jobs? If not, it could be - he writes well;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 29246 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart base/KenO Hello Ken O, No bribe needed :-) I'll type it out and post it later this evening - I just have to feed the dog and shift the car from under the tree that all the fruit bats have decided to roost in. :-) cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA. > > > kind regards > Ken O 29247 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:56am Subject: Lots of old Cans of Worms Hi James & Christine, I noticed that the ‘Time and Space’ article posted was from this website: http://www.lankalibrary.com/ James, did you see the article there on ‘Did Buddha die of Mesenteric Infarction’? Not that I want to open up this old can of worms, but you may like to take a look (preferable while I’m away;-)). I only took a quick look. Also, Christine & All, a good summary of early Buddhism in Sri Lanka in ‘Establishment of Buddhism in Sri Lanka’.It looks very clear - another quick look only, but I saw it mentions well-known monasteries established by Devanampiya Tissa. The first of these, Mahavihara, is I think where Maliyadeva studied. (He was the one who you wrote about that went daily to the woman’s house for alms and surprised her by giving the sermon at the end.)Acc. to dict of Pali PN, I think the tale is only in AN cmy as you mentioned. Obviously he lived at this later time in Sri Lanka. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ma/malaya_mahadeva.htm James, on your qu of ‘which is the real Abhidhamma’, I’d encourage you and anyone else to explore for yourself. Later as we read through more of the Visuddhimagga and SN, you’ll get plenty more exposure to the ‘real Abhidhamma’,don’t worry;-) Out of the Abhidhamma texts and their commentaries, I think the ones which are easiest to read are: 1. Atthasalini (PTS, Expositor, comy to Dhammasangani) 2. Sammohavinodani (PTS, Dispeller of Delusion, comy to Vibanga) 3. Kathavatthu (PTS, Points of Controversy, Abhid text) 4. Puggalapannatti (PTS, Human Types, Abhid text) Also, highly recommended: 1.Abhidammattha Sangaha (Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Bodhi transl, BPS/other) 2. Guide to Conditional Relations (PTS, U Narada). On Karunadasa’s extremely detailed and thorough paper, my comments are like Howard’s. On ‘Time’ he closely follows the textual sources. On ‘space’, I don’t think some of his conclusions are right, especially his main conclusion about space as pannatti. It is not merely a ‘conceptual construct’. I’d like to follow his textual sources and logic, but don’t have time now. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, thx for your last K.Pasenadi post on his grandma's death - well-presented and very human as you've said before;-) The section also had SN3:18 which I thought you might raise on the entire holy life being 'good friendship, good companionship and good comradeship.' Also, I liked SN3:6 about the few people who do not become intoxicated and negligent when they obtain 'superior possessions': 'Enamoured with their pleasures and wealth, Greedy, dazed by sensual pleasures, They do not realize they have gone too far Like deer they enter the trap laid out. Afterwards the bitter fruit is theirs, For bad indeed is the result.' =============================== ==== 29248 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Ripley's show <>(Hi KenO;-)) Hi Eznir, Pls keep up your helpful contributions. --- Eznir wrote: > Dear Friends! > > The Lord Buddha in Majjhima Nikaya 22 > > 'And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done > with the raft? .... You may like to look at this post with comy notes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24878 Metta, Sarah ====== 29249 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: Lots of old Cans of Worms Hi Sarah, Sarah: James, did you see the article there on `Did Buddha die of Mesenteric Infarction'? Not that I want to open up this old can of worms, but you may like to take a look (preferable while I'm away;- )). I only took a quick look. James: Oops, too late. I looked at it now and you are probably still here. (My students are just taking finals so I have a lot of time on my hands today.) I think it is an excellent article and well- considered. Taking all of the facts into consideration, his conclusions of Mesenteric Infarction are probably more accurate than mine about food poisoning. He makes a big assumption that the bloody diarrhea began immediately after eating the meal, and necessitated him being carried on a stretcher to his final resting place, but I think it all makes perfect sense. I just don't believe that ridiculous commentary which says that his last meal was infused with nutrients by devas. You may not want to read the whole article in depth; it will probably make your hair stand on end! ;-)) But for those interested, here is the direct link: www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/buddha_death.htm Metta, James 29250 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart base/Ken O Hello Ken O, p. 1397 of the Samyutta Nikaya Vol. II (B.Bodhi), 35 Salaayatanasamyutta - Note 3 as requested. metta and peace, Christine [Spk distinguishes the different types of "eyes" referred to in the canon. These are first divided into two general classes: the eye of knowledge (~naanachakkhu) and the physical eye (mamsacakkhu). The former is fivefold: (i) the Buddha eye (buddhacakkhu), the knowledge of the inclinations and underlying tendencies of beings, and the knowledge of the degree of maturity of their spiritual faculties; (ii) the Dhamma eye (dhammacakkhu), the knowledge of the three lower paths and fruits; (iii) the universal eye (samantacakkhu), the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (iv) the divine eye (dibbacakkhu), the knowledge arisen by suffusion of light (which sees the passing away and rebirth of beings); and (v) the wisdom eye (pa~n~naacakkhu), the discernment of the Four Noble Truths. The physical eye is twofold: (i) the composite eye (sasambhaaracakkhu), the physical eyeball; and (ii) the sensitive eye (pasaadacakkhu), i.e., the sensitive substance in the visual apparatus that responds to forms (perhaps the retina and optic nerve). Here the Blessed One speaks of the sensitive eye as the 'eye base'. The ear, etc., should be similarly understood. Mind (mano) is the mind of the three planes, which is the domain of exploration with insight (tebhuumakasammasanacaaracitta). For the commentarial treatment of the sense bases, see Vism 444-46 (Ppn 14:36-53). Hamilton challenges the commentarial classification of the first five sense bases under the ruuupakkhandha, arguing from the fact that the standard definition of the form aggregate in the suttas does not include them. In her view, the sense faculties are powers of perception partaking of both material and mental characteristics and thus unclassifiable exclusively under ruupa (Identity and Experience, pp. 14-22). By the same logic, however, it might be argued that the five external sense bases should not be assigned to the ruupakkhandha, for again the suttas do not place them there. The plain fact is that the correlations between the khandhas, aayatanas, and dhaatus are not made explicit in the Nikaayas at all, but only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, which classifies both the first five internal and external sense bases under ruupa. The five faculties and four sense objects (excluding the tactile object) are categorized as "derivative form" (upaadaa rupa), i.e. form derived from the four primary elements; the tactile object is classified under three of the primary elements: earth (hardness or softness), heat (hotness or coolness), and air (pressure and motion). The suttas themselves do not enumerate the types of derivative form, and the Abhidhamma texts seem to be filling in this lacuna.] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Do you know how I can bribe you ;-) to type out the Note 3. TIA. > > > kind regards > Ken O 29251 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:56am Subject: Re: Heart base --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > Science isn't perfect but I > would say that ideas about the physical operation of the mind and the > body are far more advanced today than during the Buddha's time. > > Rob: Maybe the eyeconsciousness is difficult to understand so take > bodyconsciouness instead. This type of consciousness can arise > wherever there is the subtle pasada rupa that is its support. For > example can you feel a sensation where your foot is resting on the > floor? If so that consciousness is arising there, not in the head. > > James: I'm sorry Rob, but no consciousness arises in the foot. This > is an absurd idea. Kinesthetic awareness/intelligence only gives the > impression that consciousness arises in the foot. It only seems this > way because there is subtle clinging to the body as a whole as > being `mine' and occupying space and time. If you practiced insight > meditation you would soon see that all consciousnesses arise in the > mind. When clinging to the body has ceased as being mine and > occupying space, there is no more duality between the mind and the > body. This is proven through insight meditation and medical > science. For example, for several years after people have a limb > removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that > missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness > arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are > just `openings' for the outside stimulus. >========== Dear James, According to the texts that first satge of vipassana is seeing that mind (nama) and rupa are entirely different: nama-rupaparichedda- nana. I wouldn't say consciousness (vinnana, citta) arises in mind because I thought citta and cetasika were mind, nama. But if medical science and insight meditation have proved what you say then who am I to argue. RobK 29252 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:57am Subject: Re: Heart base Hi Rob, Rob: According to the texts that first satge of vipassana is seeing that mind (nama) and rupa are entirely different: nama-rupaparichedda- nana. James: That is the first stage of vipassana and it is really not that difficult to achieve (one just has to begin practicing). Also, I would not say that this insight `is knowing nama and rupa to be entirely different' (they aren't entirely different and they are linked), it is simply an analytical knowledge that they are basically different. It is a very superficial knowledge really that the body doesn't cognize, it is the mind that cognizes. That the mind is drawn toward the body but the body isn't drawn toward the mind. Later insight will see that the body and the mind arise in pairs and that they cease in pairs…that is when the differences between them become less and less important. Then this insight is deepened and deepened through various levels. Then after that the complete ceasing nature, or Nibbana, becomes apparent about both. Rob: I wouldn't say consciousness (vinnana, citta) arises in mind because I thought citta and cetasika were mind, nama. James: The consciousness that is bound by objects, the clinging consciousness, arises in the mind. The consciousness that that isn't bound by objects, unbound consciousness or nibbana, isn't limited to the mind…and it isn't limited to rupa either. It is `luminous' in all directions. Rob: But if medical science and insight meditation have proved what you say then who am I to argue. James: You are someone who has valuable input and you may be right. Metta, James 29253 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sotaapanno Hello Sarah, Sarah: 'Official story': All 3 fetters uprooted at same time by stream entry path consciousness. Vism XX11, 15 "Immediately next to that knowledge (stream-entry path consciousness), however, there arise either two or three fruition consciousnesses, which are its result. Michael: Looks like another instance of the Vsm being a suspicious source. Whom to trust more? The living example of the Sangha or the ancient writings of someone barely known? "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & comrades, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-002.html Metta Michael 29254 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 2 Hi Larry, thanks for your 7 questions. op 21-01-2004 01:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > 1. Mind-door rupas are only experienced by those who have fully > developed insight, but all those rupas could be objects of attachment > for those with fully developed insight, but not for anyone else, > correct? N: I have been thinking along these lines too. Because when we are thinking just now, it seems that the object is not rupa, but an idea about them. I wait for Thailand. L: 2. If a pure octad (4 primaries, taste, color, smell, nutritive essence) > is only cognized through the mind-door, what is tasted through the > taste-door? N: Only flavour can impinge on the smelling sense, it is sensitive to only flavour. As we read, it picks up an object among odours, not any other type of object! And then immmediately after the nose-door process, flavour is experienced through the mind-door. It is all so fast, we do not realize this. We have learnt that there is an octad, but the other seven do not contact the smellingsense, even though they arise together with flavour. Nor are they experienced through the mind-door. We should not have pictorial ideas about this matter. It is a mystery that exactly the flavour out of the eight rupas contacts the smellingsense at the right moment so that smelling-consciousness, vipakacitta produced by kamma, can experience that flavour that has not fallen away yet. And also that smelling-consciousness has found a base in time, a base not yet fallen away, so that it has a physical support. Kamma conditions this, and this is the domain of the Buddhas. We cannot fathom it all. Smelling-consciousness arises at this very tiny rupa that is the smelling sense just for a moment, and then for the following cittas the heartbase is the base. When smelling-consciousness arises that is the khandha of consciousness. And where is the rupakkhandha at that moment? It is the relevant sense-base. L: 3. Why develop insight into subtle realities if we could understand that > concepts are non-arising, not impermanent, not dukkha, not self? N: It is not a matter of deciding to develop insight into subtle realities. Whatever object presents itself can be object of insight. We cannot say beforehand it cannot be a subtle rupa. Who knows? And then we can gradually through direct experience understand that a nama or rupa is not a concept. This is clearer than only knowing this in theory. As a beginner I find that it is often difficult to realize when a dhamma is the object and when there is only thinking of dhammas, when a concept is the object. A difficulty for all dhamma students! L: 4. Only one reality is experienced at a time, but "in reality" many > realities arise at the same time. So, isn't the experience of one > reality at a time unrealistic? N: Arising and being experienced are two different things. Take again the example of odour, arising with the other seven rupas in an octad. We have to verify this in daily life. When there is no intention to experience smell, no trying or wishing, but by conditions smell presents itself, it may seem that we name it or think of its origin at once. But there is also a moment of just smell presenting itself in between, without us trying to do something about it or define it. That is the way to begin to understand the characteristic of smell, different from a concept or idea about it. We cannot command sati to arise, but when there are conditions for it, it can develop in its own gradual pace, as Jon stresses so often. Sati can become used to different characteristics as nama or as rupa. At first we learn: only one object at a time is experienced. Later on, when sati arises sometimes, an object is known as just a rupa or just a nama, without naming it rupa or nama. But the learning is so slow, we have to accept this. Difficult for all Dhamma students! Another example of the experience of only one object. Sound may be so loud that it hurts our ears. Different objects, different cittas, different doorways. The pain: experienced through bodysense which is also in the ear. Body-consciousness accompanied by painful feeling can arise in the ear, we can check this ourselves. Earsense is sensitive to tangible object. Hearing the sound: another moment, other object, another doorway. It goes so fast, we may mix it all. L: 5. In the 3 modes of knowing (perception, consciousness, understanding > (panna)), consciousness knows the 3 general characteristics > (impermanence, dukkha, not self) while panna knows the distinguishing > characteristic (sabhava) is impermanent, dukkha, not self. Does this > mean the knowing of consciousness has a concept for an object? N:Not a concept, citta can reflect and begin to develop the Path. Think of the money changer simile. But understanding knows more than citta, it penetrates the true characteristics of dhammas. I go back to the Tiika at the beginning of the Vis Ch XIV: Thus panna has precise understanding of the distinguishing characteristics (visesa lakkhana) and as it develops it will also penetrate the general characteristics. L: 6. Would you say that tangible data is the only reality in all of nama > and rupa that ordinary people are even remotely capable of experiencing > realistically? N: We should not beforehand limit the field of understanding. Whatever appears in daily life is the field of understanding. Like seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. Not only tangible object. We can verify this for ourselves. L: 7. Can you say without doubt no noble one realized nibbana with a > concept as object? N: Yes! A concept does not have the three characteristics, and these are the object in the process during which enlightenment is attained. That is, a dhamma is seen either as impermanent, as dukkha or as anatta. Nina. 29255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:01am Subject: Latent Tendencies, Ch 1, no 9. Latent Tendencies, Ch 1, no 9. As to the expression, overcoming by opposites, tadanga-pahåna, this is the overcoming of an unwholesome quality by an opposite wholesome quality among the bases of meritorious deeds, such as generosity, just as a lighted lamp dispels darkness. This is called overcoming by the opposite. However, here, overcoming by the opposite refers to the the overcoming of the wrong of transgressions by good morality. There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana-pahåna, and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside. Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Wrong conduct through the body (duccarita) and so on is called ³duccarita². It is also called duccarita because it is conduct that the defilements have ruined. If such conduct has arisen in the succession of cittas, this is called ³with corruptions² (sankilesa). The reason is that one is hindered by defilements and thoroughly disturbed. With regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through bodily misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption of craving (tanhå) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to sensuous desire (kåmachandha). It is explained that the corruption of wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the disclosure and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own characteristic (sabhåva dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.² We see from these text quotations that there are three levels of defilements: Defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), coarse defilements of the degree of unwholesome courses of action. Defilements one is possessed by and that arise (pariyutthåna kilesa) are medium defilements that disturb the citta. Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie dormant in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the four Paths (at the four stages of enlightenment). To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own distinct nature and characteristic. ***** (Ch 1 concluded.) 29256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:01am Subject: FW: [Pali] Buddhaghosa Dear friends, some of you may be interested, and I also refer to the sutta we just read, on Stream entry. Frwd: Dear Rett, op 20-01-2004 10:12 schreef rett op rett@t...: > >Nina: you can fare safely with Buddhaghosa! Rett: It is important to be careful even with Buddhaghosa. There are places > where his interpretation is clearly wrong. That is not to diminish > the great value of his commentaries. N: I am glad you see the great value. I have some thoughts about this: some people have lost contact with the Abhidhamma, and when Buddhaghosa explains or implies the Abhidhamma, this may be misunderstood. When I say Abhidhamma I do not mean a textbook to be memorized, but the Abhidhamma alive, to be verified and as a guide for awareness in daily life. And also: Abhidhamma is closely connected with the Suttanta, and Vinaya. I have not read many co in Pali, some in English and Thai. I read in Pali and translated the whole Co to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, and here I could not possibly find anything wrong or contradictory to the Suttanta, on the contrary, most helpful. But there are Abhidhamma passages which may be misunderstood by some people. Actually, without Yong Peng asking me I would not have translated this line by line from the beginning, but it proved quite an experience to me. Take alone the beginning with many similes (the Buddha as a swan, tiger, moon, etc). People may not appreciate this. But all the time we should return to the time of the ancient teachers: what was their intention, what is the essence they explained? Here is explained what we find in many suttas: expression of confidence and devotion that is the fruit of a deep understanding of the teachings. Such as we read in Chapter XI 55. Sotaapattisamyutta Connected Discourses on Stream Entry (Transl by Bhikkhu Bodhi): 2 (2) Grounded "Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream- enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. [n. 322] "What four? Here, bhikkhus, a noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: "The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' I think when people do not immediately understand a Co phrase, they may think that the Co is wrong, but why is the fault with the Co? When they look again they see that there was no problem, as you just noticed for yourself in this short phrase you quoted. We can discover that the Co explanation is very clear and to the point. When we then go back to the Sutta, which we should do all the time, we see that the message of the Sutta stands out much more clearly. Here is not the place for a long debate that could go on endlessly. See Dhamma Study Group in the archives under Buddhaghosa! Let us enjoy Kaccayaana and other texts, we have our hands full. Nina. 29257 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base Hi James > James: That is the first stage of vipassana and it is really not > that difficult to achieve (one just has to begin practicing). > Also, I would not say that this insight `is knowing nama and rupa to be entirely different' (they aren't entirely different and they are linked), it is simply an analytical knowledge that they are > basically different. k: They are totally different but inseparable for beings who born in the sensual planes. Please look that the sutta about clinging and aggregates to know the distinction. J: It is a very superficial knowledge really that the body doesn't cognize, it is the mind that cognizes. That the mind is drawn toward the body but the body isn't drawn toward the mind. k: That is true if and only if we are talking about the rupas of the body. If we are talking about body consciouness. The mind consciouness will arise after the body consciouness out of tendency or out of habit. Whether there is consciouness in the sense organ is definitely an interesting scientific qn. When we talk about consciousness we are not talking about the brain (bc brain is a mass of rupas ;-). When we touch a nerve in any part of our body, is it the brain that reads the nerve transmission or the nerve receive the transmission, knows it first before it transmit to the mind ;-). J: Take dreaming for example, during dreaming visual consciousness arises and the eyes are closed. Sensory consciousness only arises in the brain, not in the rupa structures of the sense organs. For example, there have been experiments where electrical stimulation of certain areas of the brain will cause people to see, hear, smell, feel, and taste things that aren't actually present in their physical environment. The same thing happens during dreaming. J: This is proven through insight meditation and medical science. For example, for several years after people have a limb removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are just `openings' for the outside stimulus. K: Your second paragrah on feeling sensation coming from a missing limb has answered your dream analogy. These sensations that arise due to lost limbs sensation is bc out of tendecy or out of habitual we are feeling it. It is the same as dream. They are our hidden desires -(Freud is one of the psychologist who brought forward this idea - not very sure of the spelling), our tendencies. That is why Arahants do not dream bc they have eradicated all defilements or tendecies. best wishes Ken O 29258 From: Vijita Teoh Chee Keam Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angulimala ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eddie Lou" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Angulimala > Hi, Teoh, > Can please list the 5 unpardonable ? > Thanks, > Eddie Lou. These 5 weighty or Garuka kamma which produces its effect in this very life or the next were 1) matricide, 2) patricide 3) murder of an arahant 4) wounding of a Buddha and 5) creating a schism in the Sangha. He will not attain Arahatship in this life. > --- teoh chee keam wrote: > > Kalyanamitta, > > > > Angulimala managed to get attainment in that very > ...[snipped].... > > Angulimala is a perfect example for those in doubt > > after repenting from their unwholesome deeds in the > > past, no matter how great is the kamma(except the 5 > > unpardonable). > > > > Vijita Teoh. 29259 From: Eddie Lou Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angulimala Hi,Teoh, Thanks. Metta, Eddie --- Vijita Teoh Chee Keam wrote: > These 5 weighty or Garuka kamma which produces its > effect in this very life > or the next were 1) matricide, 2) patricide 3) > murder of an arahant 4) > wounding of a Buddha and 5) creating a schism in > the Sangha. He will not > attain Arahatship in this life. 29260 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Heart base Hi Ken O, Thank you for your reply. I will get to it later, in more detail, when I feel the time is more opportune. Metta, James 29261 From: Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/21/04 2:46:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > J: This is proven through insight meditation and medical > science. For example, for several years after people have a limb > removed, like a foot, they will feel sensations coming from that > missing limb (like itching, pain, heat, etc.). The consciousness > arises in the mind not in the actual limb. The sense organs are > just `openings' for the outside stimulus. > > K: Your second paragrah on feeling sensation coming from a missing > limb has answered your dream analogy. These sensations that arise > due to lost limbs sensation is bc out of tendecy or out of habitual > we are feeling it. It is the same as dream. They are our hidden > desires -(Freud is one of the psychologist who brought forward this > idea - not very sure of the spelling), our tendencies. That is why > Arahants do not dream bc they have eradicated all defilements or > tendecies. > > > ============================= Everything that is being discussed here is a matter of conventional truth. Don't you think that, along such lines, the phantom limb phenomenon is more a matter of *nerves* and the spinal cord, and the brain, than anything analogous to dreaming?? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29262 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:35pm Subject: Meditation and Nibbana Dear Group, Just a little side-track in the Samyutta - I was reading around the topic of Nibbana, and came across a sutta where a woodland devataa spoke to Aananda. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 9 Vanasamyutta 5 Aananda "On one occasion the Venerable Aananda was dwelling among the Kosalans in a certain woodland thicket. Now on that occasion the Venerable Aananda was excessively involved instructing lay people. [n.541] Then the devataa that inhabited that woodland thicket, having compassion for the Venerable Aananda, desiring his good, desiring to stir up a sense of urgency in him, approached him and addressed him in verse: "Having entered the thicket at the foot of a tree, Having placed Nibbaana in your heart, Meditate, Gotama, and don't be negligent! What will this hullabaloo do for you?" [n.542] Then the Venerable Aananda, stirred up by that deity, acquired a sense of urgency." [n.541] Spk: This sutta takes place shortly after the Buddha's parinibbaana. The Venerable Mahaakassapa had enjoined Aananda to attain arahantship before the first Buddhist council convened, scheduled to begin during the rains retreat. Aananda had gone to the Kosala country and entered a forest abode to meditate, but when the people found out he was there they continually came to him lamenting over the demise of the Master. Thus Aananda constantly had to instruct them in the law of impermanence. The devataa, aware that the council could succeed only if Aananda attended as an arahant, came to incite him to resume his meditation. [n.542] (part) Spk explains that one deposits Nibbaana in one's heart by way of function (kiccato), and by way of object (aarammanato): by way of function when one arouses energy with the thought, "I will attain Nibbaana"; by way of object when one sits absorbed in a meditative attainment having Nibbaana as its object (i.e. in phalasamaapatti, the attainment of fruition). In paada d, bilibilikaa is explained by Spk-pt as purposeless actiivity (atthavirahitaa pavattaa kiriyaa). The devataa refers thus to Aananda's talk with the lay people because it does not conduce to his attainment of the goal of the holy life. 29263 From: Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 2 Hi Nina, Thanks again for your answers. Just one more question. This body appears to be impermanent but this body is a concept. Is this body impermanent or not? If all my attachments are to concepts shouldn't I be concerned with the nature of concepts, rather than the nature of realities I don't really experience? Larry 29264 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:58pm Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on Naturality Hi Howard, ----------------------------- H: > Today's saying is "No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place." In thinking about what this means, it seemed to me that it means that a snowflake doesn't think or will, but just "does". That then got me to thinking about human beings. -------------------------------- Now you've got me started.:-) Has a human being any more claim to selfhood than a snowflake has? However, I think we are attacking the problem from the wrong end. Rather than studying snowflakes and human beings, we should be learning about paramattha dhammas. Then, we will be untroubled by those interminable questions; "Do I have free will? Can I make `thinking' happen? Does thinking happen without me? Are there really snowflakes? And so on, ad nauseam." Philosophers cannot come to terms with self-referencing problems. For example: "This statement is false. True or false?" There is no logical answer. However, by standing back from the problem, we can see the answer -- the statement is true. Similarly, "There is no self. True or false." Again, there is no logical answer. (If true, then who is talking? If false, then why is there any question?) But by studying namas and rupas we easily see the answer – there is no self who thinks and wills. ------------------------------ H: > Now, we both think and we will. ------------------------------- D'oh! :-) But seriously, why bother with this line of reasoning -- there is no end to it. ------------------------------- H: > Also, there seem to be two kinds of willing: Willing that "just happens" and which we might call "natural," and willing which involves an imposition of "self" and of thought. (Perhaps this is three kinds - there can be thinking without an interposing of "self.") ---------------------------------- Are these three kinds listed in the Abhidhamma? If not, we could be heading in a wrong direction. To repeat my point, we should ascertain the Dhamma perspective. Right understanding [of what goes on in our minds] will follow. -------------------------------- H: > Then I got to thinking about the implication that the "natural" willing is good, but the other is bad. Well, I'm not entirely certain about that. I think that very much depends on the characteristics of the person willing and acting. An advanced ariyan, and certainly an arahant, will, when willing and acting "naturally," act usefully, beneficially, out of a wholesome state of mind. But what of a worldling who is filled with selfish, self-serving desires and inclinations? When s/he acts "naturally," automatically, and without interposing "self" or thought, s/he quite typically acts in service to desires and emotions, and may well cause great harm! -------------------------------- Yes, according to the Abhidhamma, there can be ignorance with or without wrong view and with or without concept as object. ----------------------------- H: > I recall a sutta, probably more than one, in which the Buddha advised *stopping* and *considering* before acting! It is not just that he said to act with sharp awareness, sharp mindfulness and clear comprehension, but to actually cease for a moment and to think carefully about what one is about to say or do. Now that is not "natural," but for most of us, it *is* good - very good. ------------------------------ I'm only guessing here: I wonder if this involves `prompted' and `unprompted' (as is being discussed on Andrew's thread). If there is a pause, in which we prompt ourselves to act wholesomely, then, theoretically, the following citta is prompted. If there is no pause, then the citta is unprompted (and it is stronger, more wholesome/unwholesome). I think Andrew was asking if the pause, itself, had to be kusala. If it does, then there will be no benefit in pausing with unwholesome consciousness – for example, there will be no advantage in pausing with the wrong view of a self who is pausing. ------------------------------ H: > What do you folks think? ------------------------------ That's what I think. And I think we should have more calendar quotes. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > My future daughter-in-law gave me one of those "Zen calendars" for my > desk - you know, the kind that has another "saying" for each day of the month. 29265 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Heart base Hi Howard H: Everything that is being discussed here is a matter of > conventional truth. Don't you think that, along such lines, the phantom limb phenomenon is more a matter of *nerves* and the spinal cord, and the brain, than anything analogous to dreaming?? K: To me they are similar cases that are induces by tendecies. Even though they are conventional, IMHO there is a need to know the cause so to have a clearer understanding of the effect of tendency. Tendency is a very impt principle that should not be overlooked. Sometimes we are only mindful of the akusala cittas or cetasikas, however we tend to forget the underlying tendency behind each cetasikas especially the underlying tendency of ignorance is the strongest among all. best wishes Ken O 29266 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness Hi Andrew In my personal opinion since BC are anatta they cannot be deliberately be prompted. When we deliberately made a decision or action, it not about a will, we must understanding it is basically the conditions that are counter-reacting each other. Depending on our accumulation and tendecies, kusala or akusala may conditioned to arise. best wishes Ken O 29267 From: Sarah Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Kung Hei Fat Choi, Year of the Monkey! Dear Friends, Kung Hei Fat Choi! Happy New (Chinese) Year of the Monkey. I recently referred to the sutta about the the mind being like a monkey, here’s B.Bodhi’s transl of the same lines(SN12:61 Uninstructed): ..... “Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night.” .... The sutta continues: ..... “Therein, bhikkhu, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness....Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness....Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.” ..... Let me sign off with another favourite Monkey Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-007.html ..... “Those monkeys who are not foolish or careless by nature, when they see the tar trap, will keep their distance. But any monkey who is foolish & careless by nature comes up to the tar trap and grabs it with its paw, which then gets stuck there. Thinking, 'I'll free my paw,' he grabs it with his other paw. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws,' he grabs it with his foot. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws and my foot,' he grabs it with his other foot. That too gets stuck. Thinking, 'I'll free both of my paws and my feet as well,' he grabs it with his mouth. That too gets stuck. So the monkey, snared in five ways, lies there whimpering, having fallen on misfortune, fallen on ruin, a prey to whatever the hunter wants to do with him. Then the hunter, without releasing the monkey, skewers him right there, picks him up, and goes off as he likes. "This is what happens to anyone who wanders into what is not his proper range and is the territory of others. "For this reason, you should not wander into what is not your proper range and is the territory of others.” .... We learn that what is not the proper range are: ..... “The five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable by the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable by the ear... Aromas cognizable by the nose... Flavors cognizable by the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable by the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These, for a monk, are not his proper range and are the territory of others.” ..... At the end of the sutta we learn what the proper range or resort is. Now I’m following B.Bodhi’s translation: ..... “And what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain? It is the four establishments of mindfulness. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings....mind in mind.....phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. This is a bhikkhus’s resort, his own ancestral domain.” ..... May we all learn the proper range of satipatthana and not get stuck like the ‘foolish and careless’ monkey ;-) I’ll be back on line in 10 days or so and meanwhile look forward to reading all your posts. Metta, Sarah ===== 29268 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Space element a concept? Azita --- gazita2002 wrote: > Dear Jon, ... > > J: I think you have just neatly summarised one of the essential > > points made by the Buddha, that what we think we experience is > not > > real (is concept) while what is real (the dhammas) are not > > experienced as they truly are. > > > > A. I think we forget this time > and time again, well at least I do, can really only speak for > myself. I think that is why we are all still in Samsara. You're right, we do forget it all the time. And I think we can safely say 'we' because, as you say, it defines anyone who is bound to samsara (as we all are). Jon PS Sorry not to be seeing you in Bangkok this time. 29269 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha taught Icaro Good to be hearing from you again! --- icarofranca wrote: > Dear Jon- .. > Respctfully butting in at a so relevant matter! Always welcome (and anyone else, for that matter). > An attentive Abhidhamma reader will note just at the beginning > (at > the Dhammasangani, for example) a profound concordance with the all > Buddistic Suttas. If you got the Suttas as a Bona Fide registry of > all > the years Buddha spent preaching and teaching, the Abhidhamma is > the > real key for understanding all the structured pattern of thoughts > used > by Siddhartha Gautama in his dispensation and live (the tale of > the > Abhidhamma "in nuce" being preaching by Him to his Mother`s court > just > after his illumination is a good example of these interplay between > hidden meanings - if any! - and litteral signification). > The Old Cardinal Mazarin of France used to say that he had`t > any > plan or project on his writings but the grammar. The same with The > Suttas: The Abdhidhamma, The Suttas, The Vinaya and the own > Buddha's > live are embedded in one ground of Wisdom and Experience. Concepts > as > General, Specific, Exoteric, Esoteric, Private, Public, Hidden and > Expounded and so on are below the abysm even of Pali language and > its > grammar...only Sammuit-Sacca. Beyond these, the Ultimate Reality, > The Nibbana. Well said (if I understand you correctly). > > If the suttas and commentaries as they stand are not relevant to > > ordinary lay-folk like you and me how will your hypothetical > > bhikkhu-in-the-know be able to help (and how does one find such a > > person in the first place)? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The common basis of Wisdom - Panna - Experience and even grammar > makes all these efforts if not a real Dhamma preaching ( we are not > Bhikkhus at a Sangha anyway) at least a good foundation for > better > understanding of our lives. If you like to take up these issues to > the > Kamma level, so one could say that it is a good Kamma at the last > end: > a good simpleton viewpoint is a good viewpoint for any means, nes't > pas ? I'm not quite with you here, but I'm sure it's all good stuff! > Ditto, Jon! > Is it necessary to quote the Mahaparinibbana Sutta to clarify > this question ? Thanks for the reminder of that source. Spot on! I'll keep it in mind (or course, you're welcome to come in with a quote any itme) Nice talking to you again. Jon 29270 From: Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 2 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/21/04 10:57:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks again for your answers. Just one more question. This body appears > to be impermanent but this body is a concept. Is this body impermanent > or not? If all my attachments are to concepts shouldn't I be concerned > with the nature of concepts, rather than the nature of realities I don't > really experience? > > Larry > ======================== If I may put in my 2 cents: If one practices meditation diligently and regularly, one can come to experience, after not too long, a flow of experience closer to the level of actualities. And starting with that, and eventually progressing to the point of seeing the flux of phenomena at the finest level, there will arise disenchantment and insight into the impermanence, impersonality, and insubstantiality of phenomena that carries over to the more macroscopic mind-constructed "objects" in our world of concept. But only seeing the conventional impermanence of conventional objects is little more than suggestive. By itself, I believe, it isn't transformative. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29271 From: Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on Naturality Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/21/04 11:35:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ----------------------------- > H: >Today's saying is "No snowflake ever falls in the wrong place." > In thinking about what this means, it seemed to me that it means > that a snowflake doesn't think or will, but just "does". That then > got me to thinking about human beings. > -------------------------------- > > Now you've got me started.:-) Has a human being any more claim to > selfhood than a snowflake has? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is, of course, conventional speech. Let's stick with that and not go for a confusing mix of conventional and literal. A snowflake has no sense of self, but a human being has. Neither has any self/core. ---------------------------------------------------- > > However, I think we are attacking the problem from the wrong end. > Rather than studying snowflakes and human beings, we should be > learning about paramattha dhammas. Then, we will be untroubled by > those interminable questions; "Do I have free will? Can I > make `thinking' happen? Does thinking happen without me? Are there > really snowflakes? And so on, ad nauseam." > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not troubled by the matter of free will. I think it is an incoherent concept. Nor do I think the other questions are well formed. ------------------------------------------------- > > Philosophers cannot come to terms with self-referencing problems. > For example: "This statement is false. True or false?" There is no > logical answer. However, by standing back from the problem, we can > see the answer -- the statement is true. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. It is meaningless and lacks a truth value. -------------------------------------------------- Similarly, "There is no > > self. True or false." Again, there is no logical answer. (If true, > then who is talking? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense. The statement is true. And with regard to the question "Who is talking," the proper conventional answer is "I am", but the proper literal answer is "Nobody!". ---------------------------------------------- If false, then why is there any question?) But > by studying namas and > rupas we easily see the answer – there is no > self who thinks and wills. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is correct that there is no self that thinks and wills. And the point is ... what? There still is thinking and willing! And usually there is doing so with the *sense* of self very much present. We can read about namas and rupas in Abhidhammic treatises "from now until Metteya come," but unless we see directly what is what, that sense of self will continue to dominate our lives ad infinitum! ---------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > H: >Now, we both think and we will. > ------------------------------- > > D'oh! :-) But seriously, why bother with this line of reasoning -- > there is no end to it. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Because I was interested in thinking about and discussing the matter of "naturality", and questioning it to some extent. If you read my post and my comments about how the Buddha recommended stopping and considering before speaking or acting, you will see what I was after. That is my main point, though you don't address that much in this reply. --------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > H: >Also, there seem to be two kinds of willing: Willing that "just > happens" and which we might call "natural," and willing which > involves an imposition of "self" and of thought. (Perhaps this is > three kinds - there can be thinking without an interposing > of "self.") > ---------------------------------- > > Are these three kinds listed in the Abhidhamma? If not, we could be > heading in a wrong direction. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Abhidhamma is not my bible. And I will not abrogate freedom of thought to it. -------------------------------------------------- To repeat my point, we should > ascertain the Dhamma perspective. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Dhamma = Abhidhamma is a false equation. ----------------------------------------------- Right understanding [of what goes > > on in our minds] will follow. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No it will not. Reading the menu doesn't fill one's stomach! ------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------- > H: >Then I got to thinking about the implication that the "natural" > willing is good, but the other is bad. Well, I'm not entirely > certain about that. I think that very much depends on the > characteristics of the person willing and acting. > An advanced ariyan, and certainly an arahant, will, when willing and > acting "naturally," act usefully, beneficially, out of a wholesome > state of mind. But what of a worldling who is filled with selfish, > self-serving desires and inclinations? When s/he acts "naturally," > automatically, and without interposing "self" or thought, s/he quite > typically acts in service to desires and emotions, and may well > cause great harm! > -------------------------------- > > Yes, according to the Abhidhamma, there can be ignorance with or > without wrong view and with or without concept as object. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: There cannot be ignorance without origin in concept. The sense of self, of core, of separate self-existing objects, and so on, are all concept derived. I agree, however, that ignorance may not always express itself at the level of view, but it consistently expresses itself by distorting perception. ------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------------- > H: >I recall a sutta, probably more than one, in which the Buddha > advised *stopping* and *considering* before acting! It is not just > that he said to act with sharp awareness, sharp mindfulness and > clear comprehension, but to actually cease for a moment and to think > carefully about what one is about to say or do. Now that is > not "natural," but for most of us, it *is* good - very good. > ------------------------------ > > I'm only guessing here: I wonder if this involves `prompted' > and `unprompted' (as is being discussed on Andrew's thread). If > there is a pause, in which we prompt ourselves to act wholesomely, > then, theoretically, the following citta is prompted. If there is > no pause, then the citta is unprompted (and it is stronger, more > wholesome/unwholesome). > > I think Andrew was asking if the pause, itself, had to be kusala. > If it does, then there will be no benefit in pausing with > unwholesome consciousness – for example, there will be no advantage > in pausing with the wrong view of a self who is pausing. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha recommended stopping and considering before acting. When there is time to give thorough and lengthy consideration, so much the better. But often there is no time for an internal review as to what extent one has right or wrong view - and if one's view is wrong, could one even know it!! - or for consultation with an Abhidhamma text. The main point is to not act automatically (like an automaton), for to do so is to simply act reactively and mindlessly, like a sleepwalker. The Buddha also urged the ongoing practice of moral behavior and meditation, cultivating the mind, so that at the moment when one *does* stop and consider before plunging into action, the results will be beneficial. -------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > H: >What do you folks think? > ------------------------------ > > That's what I think. And I think we should have more calendar > quotes. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29272 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:50pm Subject: The Ups and Downs of Meditation Dear Friends, One of the first stages of practicing vipassana meditation is an increase in lobha (greed) with the meditation itself as the object. The practitioner will feel that meditation is the best thing in the world! The person may start to preach to other people that they should all meditate or he/she will look on other people with pity that they don't meditate. They will see meditation as the panacea for all of the world's problems. This is, of course, a very juvenile stage of the meditation process but all of the practitioners will go through it. I went through it also. I don't belong to any of the Yahoo groups on meditation because most of the members are in this stage, where meditation is just `EVERYTHING'! ;-) One will eventually get out of this stage and see that they are no better off than anyone else because they meditate. Actually, they will see that in some ways they are worse off. As the saying goes, "Ignorance is Bliss". The practitioner will only discuss meditation when it comes up and he/she no longer tries to persuade others to practice. It becomes a personal practice and it isn't done to `prove' anything to anyone. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that many of the members in this group who began the practice of meditation got to this first stage of increased lobha and stopped there. They saw this increased lobha as dangerous and blamed the practice itself. Then, rather than trying to persuade everyone to meditate like what usually happens, they began to persuade everyone to not meditate. This is also a juvenile stage in the meditation process. Thinking that everyone is going to be harmed by meditation is just as juvenile as thinking that everyone is going to be saved by meditation. They are both extreme views, but they are part of the process. But, and I want to make this very clear, reading about meditation is not the same as actually doing it. You can read about the insights that others have achieved in meditation, and even feel for a moment that you have achieved them yourself, but that feeling is a phantom and a falsehood. When I describe what I have experienced in meditation and someone tells me that I am wrong because it says such and such in such book, I really have to smile. A person can read a manual all about flying an airplane and even detailed descriptions of flying an airplane, and even be able to pass extensive tests and hold detailed discusssions about flying an airplane, but if you put that person in an actual airplane it would be bound to crash. For those of you flying to Bangkok, I sincerely hope your pilot has actually practiced flying the airplane rather than just reading about it! ;-)) Metta, James 29273 From: Date: Wed Jan 21, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism I have had many people say that I might have become addicted to ecstasy. I have been saying, no, all along because ecstasy requires dispassion and equanimity for it to emerge and deepen, whereas addiction is based upon grasping and aversion. And, some have come out and stated that ecstatic contemplatives (jhana yogis) are addicted to ecstasy. What I find most interesting about the accusation that I am addicted to the ecstatic contemplative experience, is we live in a culture that is addicted to many substances, such as alcohol, nicotine and caffeine, not to mention all of the prescription medications people are taking, as well as the illegal narcotics millions of Americans buy every year. However I do not consume any of these things. I do not even take aspirin because all of the pains of sickness and old age have been erased by the ecstatic sensations that pervade this body. Others have said the Buddha rejected ecstatic states. However all one need do is read the Pali canon to see that ecstasy (jhana) was one of the most common topics the Buddha addressed. If you examine the glossary of the Digha Nikaya alone you will find these references to jhana: jhanas - Absorptions, DN 42, 1.3.21f., n.79, n.50, n.57, n.76f., 2.75ff., 4.33, n.168, 9.10ff., 16.6.8f., 17.2.3, n.583, n.611, 26.28, 29.24, 33.3.3(6), n.1118, n.1127, n.1143 Therefore in conclusion I believe you will agree with me that the ecstatic absorption states (jhanas/dhyanas) were of central importance to the historic Buddha's teaching method. Well, in the Buddha's own words, yes, ecstatic states are not only desirable, but ecstatic contemplatives (jhana yogis) are addicted to ecstasy, worse, pleasure seeking. But, he said since it is a pleasure "not of the senses" it is a pleasure worthy of seeking for one who seeks Buddhahood, Arahantship, full enlightenment, nibbana. Therefore the Buddha was addicted to ecstasy Digha Nikaya 29 Pasadika Sutta The Delightful Discourse a translation from the Pali by Maurice Walshe, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1987, 1995 24.2 There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to tranquillity, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? First a monk detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhana, which is with thinking and pondering, born of detachment, filled with delight and happiness. And, with the subsiding of thinking and pondering, by gaining inner tranquillity and oneness of mind, he enters and remains in the second jhana, which is without thinking and pondering, born of concentration, filled with delight and happiness. Again, with the fading of delight, remaining imperturbable, mindful and clearly aware, he experiences in himself that joy of which the Noble Ones say; "Happy is he who dwells with equanimity and mindfulness," he enters and remains in the third jhana. Again, having given up pleasure and pain, and with the disappearance of former gladness and sadness, he enters and remains in the fourth jhana, which is beyond pleasure and pain, and purified by equanimity and mindfulness. These are the four kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are entirely conducive to disenchantment, to cessation, to tranquillity, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So, if wanderers from other sects should say that the followers of the Sakyan are addicted to these four forms of pleasure seeking, they should be told: "Yes," for they would be speaking correctly about you, they would not be slandering you with false or untrue statements. 25. Then such wanderers might ask: "Well then, those who are given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking - how many fruits, how many benefits can they expect?" And, you should reply: "They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they? The first is when a monk by destruction of three fetters has become a Stream-Winner, no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment; the second is when a monk by the complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more to this world, will put an end to suffering; the third is when a monk, by the destruction of the corruptions in this very life has, by his own knowledge and realization, attained Arahantship, to the deliverance of heart and through wisdom. Such are the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking can expect." May I benefit all beings with every thought, word, action and resource. Blessings to you, Jeff Brooks Ecstatic Buddhism A newsletter for ecstatic Buddhists website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ Subscribe: Ecstatic_Buddhism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 29274 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the Buddha taught Dear Jon: Jon: Icaro > > Good to be hearing from you again! ------------------------------------------------------------------- As the MahaBoddhisatta Gloria Gaynor could say off,"I will survive!" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jon: Always welcome (and anyone else, for that matter). ------------------------------------------------------------------- Connie had introduced me at other DS Group at yahoo's! Good girl!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well said (if I understand you correctly). -------------------------------------------------------------------- With time and exercise I will shape ny English more and more! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: I'm not quite with you here, but I'm sure it's all good stuff! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Many people think that Kamma was teaching out by Buddha as a ultimate reality. Not at all! But it's a strong ground for any doctrine one can raise up. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: Thanks for the reminder of that source. Spot on! I'll keep it in > mind (or course, you're welcome to come in with a quote any itme) > > Nice talking to you again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keep boosting, man! Mettaya, Ícaro 29275 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: The Ups and Downs of Meditation Dear james: When I describe what I have experienced in > meditation and someone tells me that I am wrong because it says such > and such in such book, I really have to smile. A person can read a > manual all about flying an airplane and even detailed descriptions of > flying an airplane, and even be able to pass extensive tests and hold > detailed discusssions about flying an airplane, but if you put that > person in an actual airplane it would be bound to crash. For those > of you flying to Bangkok, I sincerely hope your pilot has actually > practiced flying the airplane rather than just reading about it!;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Since I managed to install Linux on my computer, now I am a linuxian (despite the fact I must learn again how to configure my p2p software...nevermind!) that only refuses to give more money to Bill Gates again! But - noblesse oblige - I must confess that the MSN Flight Simulator is a tempting resource for whom may be interested to fly... I have said "tempting" because no one is fool enough to climb up inside a plane cockpit and begin to take off only with MSN FS teachings. Keeping out a goodhearted perspective in this scene, the same happens with reading books and Meditation (Mindfullness is a better term anyway). I love reading The Abhidhamma, the Visuddhimagga (I try. ..I try...I try...), the S. Nikaya, etc, but the practice of Vipassana, for example, belongs only to own Vipassana. At the other side, if The Abhidhamma IS The Vipassana... Mettaya, Ícaro 29276 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: The Ups and Downs of Meditation Hi Icaro, Icaro: But - noblesse oblige - I must confess that the MSN Flight Simulator is a tempting resource for whom may be interested to fly... I have said "tempting" because no one is fool enough to climb up inside a plane cockpit and begin to take off only with MSN FS teachings. James: Yes, I have that program also. It is very interesting but also somewhat slow. I guess I could never be a pilot! ;-)) (Not to mention that I always crash my plane! ;-) Icaro: At the other side, if The Abhidhamma IS The Vipassana... James: The Abhidhamma is no more vipassana than a written description of a tiger is a tiger. Metta, James ps. Good luck with your Linux! 29277 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:59am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hi Jeff, Jeff: I have had many people say that I might have become addicted to ecstasy. I have been saying, no, all along because ecstasy requires dispassion and equanimity for it to emerge and deepen, whereas addiction is based upon grasping and aversion. James: I wouldn't say that you are addicted to ecstasy, that would be going too far, but I do think that you put too much emphasis on ecstasy. The practice of Jhana is to develop the powers of the mind, ecstasy just happens to be a `side-effect' of that practice. When you focus on how tingly and good jhana makes your whole body feel, and the images and psychic abilities it gives you, you have lost the point of the practice and you will remain stuck in the first stages. Ecstasy isn't wisdom and the point to doing Jhana is to eventually develop the mind to the level where wisdom arises. I wish that I could do jhana meditation but I don't have the dedication to the practice that you have. I could NOT meditate for an hour each morning, several hours each evening, and then even more hours on the weekend like you do! But, that is what Jhana requires. From the outside people are going to think that you have gone looney or something, let them think what they want. But, I would recommend that you stop focusing on the `ecstasy' part of Jhana and start focusing more on the `concentration' part. Metta, James 29278 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates and detachment (was, characteristics) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Michael) - ... H: I see acquiring the knowing of anatta/su~n~nata as something that has an aspect of "layers" to it. An outer layer is the distinguishing of pa~n~natti from paramattha dhammas. To an ordinary worldling, paramattha dhammas such as anger are already recognized to some extent as being insubstantial and as not remaining, though this is not known at all well or deeply. However, the "person who gets angry from time to time," appears to be an enduring entity with changing features! This is the difference between paramattha dhamma and pa~n~natti, even for a worldling. Seeing through pa~n~natti is a "layer" of acquired wisdom. The further unraveling of our refiying of paramattha dhammas, seeing down to the bone their insubstantial, dependent, and ephemeral status - that is, freeing actualities from their current defiled conceptually-grasped status is a deeper "level." I think both are needed. J: Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I agree that there are different levels or stages of panna (sometimes called the vipassana-nana's). One of the primary attributes of the teaching is its gradual nature, whereby panna is developed progressively. As I see it, the distinction between dhammas and pannatti becomes known as and when dhammas are gradually seen as they truly are. In other words, pannatti are 'seen' only by the seeing of dhammas; there is nothing to be seen in pannatti themselves since they are mere creations of the mind. Pannatti do not form part of the 'soil' in which understanding can grow. But with the development of panna they are no longer taken for something that is real. Jon 29279 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element a concept? Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... Howard: I only seem to exparience hardness through the body door. Of course, when one "sees" a table or rock etc, one assumes that "touching it" will result in hardness, or, to put it conventionally, that tables and rocks are hard. Perhaps that is what you mean. I find space to be different. It does seem to be experienced through eye door, body door, and ear door, but I believe that it is really *only* experienced through mind door, and not as a reality, but as pa~n~natti. J: I agree that the conventional notion of space is just that -- a notion (pannatti). ... --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as you know, I have no use for alleged unobservable rupas. J: But what about those dhammas (namas and rupas) that are unobservable now only because of our lack of developed panna, but are potentially observable to us in time as panna is developed? Besides, none of the dhammas mentioned in the texts were unobservable to the Buddha. To rule out the possibility of their existence simply because they are unobservable *to us* would be something of a conceit as I see it. In any event, even though unobservable, their influence may be still give rise to an observable effect, which we of course will look to have explained. Is it not better to contemplate the possibility of the explanation given by the Buddha than to contrive our own? ... ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sorry, but there is a difference between an unobservable, on the one hand, and something observed wrongly or not currently observed. I do not believe in unobservables, because they are beyond confirmation or refutation. J: I don't think anyone is suggesting we should *believe in* unobservables. However, we should not forget that the presently observable/not observable is largely a function of our present level of developed understanding (or, to put it another way, our ignorance and wrong view). As you are fond of saying, we have to start from where we are, and this necessarily implies a state of some ignorance as regards dhammas. To say that we will only contemplate the existence of those dhammas that 'make sense' to us is to make ourselves a prisoner of our own ignorance and wrong view. H: When something, such as a self, is unobservable, that is pragmatic basis for assuming its nonexistence. J: I see it somewhat differently ;-)). The texts are not saying, "Since no 'self' is observable to you now, therefore 'self' doesn't exist". Rather, they are saying that as and when dhammas come to be known by developed awareness and panna/insight those dhammas are seen as exhibiting characteristics that are incompatible with their being a 'self'. So the characteristic of 'not-self' is not to be seen by looking for a self and not finding one (anyone could 'do' that), but rather by the development of understanding of the true nature of dhammas. Questions of the (un)observability of rupas are something else again, however. Jon 29280 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: FW: [Pali] Buddhaghosa : To Nina Dear Nina and all How are you? Your reply to Rett was fair and commendable. Was he able to actually quote something from the Buddhaghosa's works? If there were specific quotes from commentaries being challenged by by Rett, please let me know. I will write a special analytical post to refute their misunderstandings. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiolgy.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear friends, some of you may be interested, and I also refer to the sutta we just read, on Stream entry. Frwd: Dear Rett, op 20-01-2004 10:12 schreef rett op rett@t...: > >Nina: you can fare safely with Buddhaghosa! Rett: It is important to be careful even with Buddhaghosa. There are places > where his interpretation is clearly wrong. That is not to diminish > the great value of his commentaries. N: I am glad you see the great value. I have some thoughts about this: some people have lost contact with the Abhidhamma, and when Buddhaghosa explains or implies the Abhidhamma, this may be misunderstood. When I say Abhidhamma I do not mean a textbook to be memorized, but the Abhidhamma alive, to be verified and as a guide for awareness in daily life. And also: Abhidhamma is closely connected with the Suttanta, and Vinaya. Nina. 29281 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates and detachment (was, characteristics) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/22/04 8:31:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Michael) - > ... > H: I see acquiring the knowing of anatta/su~n~nata as something > that has an aspect of "layers" to it. An outer layer is the > distinguishing of pa~n~natti from paramattha dhammas. To an ordinary > worldling, paramattha dhammas such as anger are already recognized to > some extent as being insubstantial and as not remaining, though this > is not known at all well or deeply. However, the "person who gets > angry from time to time," appears to be an enduring entity with > changing features! This is the difference between paramattha dhamma > and pa~n~natti, even for a worldling. Seeing through pa~n~natti is a > "layer" of acquired wisdom. The further unraveling of our refiying of > paramattha dhammas, seeing down to the bone their insubstantial, > dependent, and ephemeral status - that is, freeing actualities from > their current defiled conceptually-grasped status is a deeper > "level." I think both are needed. > > J: Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I agree that there are > different levels or stages of panna (sometimes called the > vipassana-nana's). One of the primary attributes of the teaching is > its gradual nature, whereby panna is developed progressively. > > As I see it, the distinction between dhammas and pannatti becomes > known as and when dhammas are gradually seen as they truly are. In > other words, pannatti are 'seen' only by the seeing of dhammas; there > is nothing to be seen in pannatti themselves since they are mere > creations of the mind. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I largely agree with that. In fact it is a point I recently made in a post (to Larry, I think) about meditating. However, I don't think the process is entirely linear. As one starts to see the tilakkhana in dhammas, concepts begin to lose their hold. As one starts to see through concepts, it becomes easier to see the nature of dhammas. There is sort of a positive feeback loop between the two levels of developing wisdom. ------------------------------------------------- Pannatti do not form part of the 'soil' in> > which understanding can grow. But with the development of panna they > are no longer taken for something that is real. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are likely pretty much in agreement on this, Jon. ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29282 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element a concept? Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/22/04 8:46:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard: > I only seem to exparience hardness through the body door. Of > course, when one "sees" a table or rock etc, one assumes that > "touching it" will result in hardness, or, to put it conventionally, > that tables and rocks are hard. Perhaps that is what you mean. I find > space to be different. It does seem to be experienced through eye > door, body door, and ear door, but I believe that it is really *only* > experienced through mind door, and not as a reality, but as > pa~n~natti. > > J: I agree that the conventional notion of space is just that -- a > notion (pannatti). > > ... > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, as you know, I have no use for alleged unobservable > rupas. > > J: But what about those dhammas (namas and rupas) that are > unobservable now only because of our lack of developed panna, but are > potentially observable to us in time as panna is developed? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Dhammas that are not observable now by us, but could be obsserved by us or another are *not* what I mean by 'unobservable'. -------------------------------------------------- > > Besides, none of the dhammas mentioned in the texts were unobservable > to the Buddha. To rule out the possibility of their existence simply > because they are unobservable *to us* would be something of a conceit > as I see it. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are missing what I mean. What we observe is *the content of an experience*, whether it be hardness or space or anything else. Only experiential content is observable, not any alleged "external things". ------------------------------------------------ > > In any event, even though unobservable, their influence may be still > give rise to an observable effect, which we of course will look to > have explained. Is it not better to contemplate the possibility of > the explanation given by the Buddha than to contrive our own? > > ... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Sorry, but there is a difference between an unobservable, on > the one hand, and something observed wrongly or not currently > observed. I do not believe in unobservables, because they are beyond > confirmation or refutation. > > J: I don't think anyone is suggesting we should *believe in* > unobservables. However, we should not forget that the presently > observable/not observable is largely a function of our present level > of developed understanding (or, to put it another way, our ignorance > and wrong view). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But I am not talking about "presently observable." (At the conventional level, the interior of no star of Alpha Centauri is presently observable, but it likely exists and, under proper conditions, could be observed. But at no time is any "thing" independent of awareness an object of awareness, because the only object of awareness is an experiential content. If you and I "touch the same table," the hardness you experience is not the hardness I experience. Though they correspond, one is content of your experience and one is content of mine. Each of us experiences an experiential content when we feel hardness, not an external, independent entity. ------------------------------------------------ > > As you are fond of saying, we have to start from where we are, and > this necessarily implies a state of some ignorance as regards > dhammas. To say that we will only contemplate the existence of those > dhammas that 'make sense' to us is to make ourselves a prisoner of > our own ignorance and wrong view. > > H: When something, such as a self, is unobservable, that is > pragmatic basis for assuming its nonexistence. > > J: I see it somewhat differently ;-)). The texts are not saying, > "Since no 'self' is observable to you now, therefore 'self' doesn't > exist". > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is notobservable "period." When looked for, wherever it might be, it is unseen, and thus there is no basis for countenancing its existence. --------------------------------------------------- Rather, they are saying that as and when dhammas come to be> > known by developed awareness and panna/insight those dhammas are seen > as exhibiting characteristics that are incompatible with their being > a 'self'. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: And is it "presumed" that these dhammas are all that exist? Yes, because they are all that is ever seen. One cannot ultimately *prove* nonexistence of an alleged something. It is existence that requires evidence. -------------------------------------------------- > > So the characteristic of 'not-self' is not to be seen by looking for > a self and not finding one (anyone could 'do' that), but rather by > the development of understanding of the true nature of dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Only because it is only the dhammas that are ever actually observed. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Questions of the (un)observability of rupas are something else again, > however. > > Jon > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29283 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element a concept? Hi again. Jon - My main question, not answered yet by anyone so far as I'm aware, is, if space is a rupa, then what is the sense door through which it is cognized. As I have said, we seem to "see" space. But a visual rupa is the entire content of a moment of seeing, and not a part of it carved out by the mind. When we open our eyes and look, we *seem* to see separate three-dimensional shapes, variously colored, with spaces between them, and occupying space. But all the visual rupa actually is is an entire visual field, requiring further perceptual and conceptual processing to achieve an observing of shapes and spaces etc. So, "space" is not a visual rupa. Nor is it heard, tasted, touched, or smelled. It is, however, cognized, but that is on the basis of perceptual and conceptual construction. It seems to me that space is much like a tree or table or human body - it is pa~n~natti. In each case, the dhammas that underly these conventional things are constantly changing, arising & ceasing perhaps instantaneously, but certainly rapidly, whereas a tree, a table, a human body, and space as well, seem to last, at least beyond the moment. They are concept-only, well grounded but concept-only. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29284 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 3 Hi Larry, Thanks for the question. I add another former one not yet answered but it seems suitable now. op 22-01-2004 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > This body appears > to be impermanent but this body is a concept. Is this body impermanent > or not? N: When we think of the body as a whole, we think of a concept, an idea we have about the body. In reality what we call body is constituted by many different rupas that arise and fall away all the time. We notice decay of the body, and we think about its impermanence, but that is thinking of an idea, a concept we have of the body as impermanent. We do not realize the falling away of each rupa separately, thus the momentary impermanence, the true charactertistic of impermanence. And therefore we also fail to see the true characteristic of dukkha: what falls away each moment is no refuge, it is not worth clinging to, dukkha. Before you can blink your eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone, from head to toe, nothing remaining. L: If all my attachments are to concepts shouldn't I be concerned > with the nature of concepts, rather than the nature of realities I don't > really experience? N: We shall not know what concepts are if we do not know what realities are, and wrong view cannot be eradicated. All our misconceptions cannot be eradicated if we remain in the world of thinking, of illusions. A more drastic approach is necessary to break up that world. If we realize that there are six separate worlds appearing through the six doors, one at a time, our world of illusions crumbles apart. We should remember the sutta in K IV, 52, The world, it crumbles away. and so on. Sutta after sutta the Buddha explains about six classes of objects, six bases, six sense-cognitions. The question is how. Awareness now and then of what appears one at a time seems to be very insignificant, but still, it is the only way. Awareness and understanding can be accumulated. It is not enough to be aware of rupas of the body, also nama has to be known. Nama may not seem so obvious, it is more subtle. A. Sujin explained that if understanding of a few dhammas develops , this is a condition for panna to gradually understand more different types of dhammas. Kusala and akusala have to be known, thinking has to be known, understanding itself has to be known as only a nama, otherwise we shall cling to it, take it for my understanding. No need to go apart, if we concentrate on one object than all the other objects that are impinging will not be known. Moreover, when we try to concentrate there is bound to be clinging, not understanding. Knowing the six worlds does not interefere with daily life. Mostly we think of concepts, that is daily life, but in betrween there can be moments that one world appears at a time and then understanding can be developed. Larry's former questions (I do not know how much of this is still a question for you): L:Can we say my face as an abiding, living reality is kamma produced whether I am aware of it or not? N: As you know, face is a concept, but it consists of rupas produced by four factors. Not only by kamma. When there are facial expressions we can see that also citta conditions rupas. When we are sunburnt: heat element produces rupas. And good or bad food conditions one's complexion. These are just illustrations in conventional language. L: When I become aware of some aspect of my face (hardness, color etc.), is that aspect kamma resultant? N: It is more intricate. See above: four factors. L: When I die and my face becomes part of a corpse, is the abiding reality of that corpse temperature produced? N: Rupas of a corpse are temperature produced. I would not say an abiding reality. The corpse consists of rupas that arise and fall away. L: If someone smells that corpse, that smell is kamma resultant? N: No, smell, when it concerns a corpse, is only produced by the element of heat. And the citta that smells is vipaka. Another reality. L: Can we say all the materials of my computer are temperature produced; at the time those materials were fashioned into parts those parts were consciousness produced, but the abiding reality of those materials as parts is temperature produced? N: It consists of what we call dead matter, it can only be temperature produced. True that citta can fashion dead matter, citta can create, such as in the case of painting or writing. It is citta that causes the hand to move! But here we speak about another aspect, it is a condition, but it is not the same as actually producing rupa. L: If the abiding reality of my computer is temperature produced can we say whenever I touch my computer that touch creates a new group of materials that is consciousness produced? N: No. Moreover, I would not use the word abiding reality. L:The touch itself is kamma resultant. N: Could not be. L:If it rains on my computer, whatever effect that has is temperature produced. N: Not only if it rains. Talking about a whole of a computer may be confusing. We may confuse realities and concepts. There were many posts about this subject. To conclude, when you were speaking about your abiding face, I thought of someone who looked into the mirror and saw things as they are. We think that we are in the mirror, but when we touch it, we know that this is not true. Or when seeing, we know that just colour is seen. The same is true in real life: nobody there. We read in Theragatha II, 145, that Vitasoka when being dressed by the barber looked into the mirror and saw some grey hairs. While sitting there he attained enlightenment: <"Now let him shave me!" - so the barber came. From him I took the mirror and, therein Reflected, on myself I gazed and thought: "Futile for lasting is this body shown." (Thus thinking on the source that blinds our sight My spirit's) darkness melted into light, Stripped are the swathing vestments (of defilements) utterly. Now is there no more coming back to be.> Nina. 29285 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Hi Sarah and James, op 21-01-2004 11:25 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Sarah: James, did you see the article there on `Did Buddha die of > Mesenteric Infarction'? > James: Oops, too late. I looked at it now N: I just have a few observations. I read it in PTS Journal 20. On the first page: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angulimala Hi Eddie and Teoh, op 21-01-2004 19:03 schreef Vijita Teoh Chee Keam op cheekeam@t...: > > These 5 weighty or Garuka kamma which produces its effect in this very life > or the next were 1) matricide, 2) patricide 3) murder of an arahant 4) > wounding of a Buddha and 5) creating a schism in the Sangha. He will not > attain Arahatship in this life. N: These kammas produce immediately after death rebirth in an unhappy plane or hell plane. That is why they are also called kamm with immediate destiny: aanantarika kamma. Such a person could not become an arahat, because an arahat cannot be reborn. Nina. 29287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness Hi Andrew, As Ken O explains, it is entirely due to conditions, beyond control. The citta has already arisen and fallen away before we can do anything. Afterwards we can reflect on it, but the precise characteristic cannot be known by reflection. Sometimes I do not like to give something away, but Lodewijk who is very generous instigates me, and then my giving is prompted. Or I think of the Buddha's perfection of dana which can prompt me, then it is an inward prompting. We may wish the kusala cittas to be spontaneous, or accompanied by happy feeling, but this depends entirely on conditions. So we should not try or wish for it. They arise already. Nina. op 21-01-2004 06:41 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: >> so, there is a chapter in Nina's ADL called The Sobhana Cittas in > our >> Life. >> >> Of course, you're not suggesting that you can prompt the >> arising of a Beautiful Consciousness, are you Andrew??? > I have misplaced my ADL but it will turn up soon, no doubt. I wanted > some more information than is in the CMA which says on p 36... 29288 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 3 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/22/04 1:28:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Larry, > Thanks for the question. I add another former one not yet answered but it > seems suitable now. > op 22-01-2004 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > This body appears > >to be impermanent but this body is a concept. Is this body impermanent > >or not? > N: When we think of the body as a whole, we think of a concept, an idea we > have about the body. In reality what we call body is constituted by many > different rupas that arise and fall away all the time. We notice decay of > the body, and we think about its impermanence, but that is thinking of an > idea, a concept we have of the body as impermanent. We do not realize the > falling away of each rupa separately, thus the momentary impermanence, the > true charactertistic of impermanence. And therefore we also fail to see the > true characteristic of dukkha: what falls away each moment is no refuge, it > is not worth clinging to, dukkha. > Before you can blink your eyes, all the rupas of the body have already gone, > from head to toe, nothing remaining. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I like the foregoing *very* much, Nina. --------------------------------------------- > L: If all my attachments are to concepts shouldn't I be concerned > >with the nature of concepts, rather than the nature of realities I don't > >really experience? > N: We shall not know what concepts are if we do not know what realities are, > and wrong view cannot be eradicated. All our misconceptions cannot be > eradicated if we remain in the world of thinking, of illusions. A more > drastic approach is necessary to break up that world. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely, and I think you put it very well! -------------------------------------------------- > If we realize that there are six separate worlds appearing through the six > doors, one at a time, our world of illusions crumbles apart. We should > remember the sutta in K IV, 52, The world, it crumbles away. away? The eye...objects...eye-consciousness...> and so on. > Sutta after sutta the Buddha explains about six classes of objects, six > bases, six sense-cognitions. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, if we actually and directly see that, it contributes to the world of illusions beginning to crumble. ---------------------------------------------- > The question is how. Awareness now and then of what appears one at a time > seems to be very insignificant, but still, it is the only way. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly! (I would add that by sila and samadhi, the mind may be cultivated so that such moments of clarity arise more often and more clearly.) ------------------------------------------- Awareness and> > understanding can be accumulated. It is not enough to be aware of rupas of > the body, also nama has to be known. Nama may not seem so obvious, it is > more subtle. A. Sujin explained that if understanding of a few dhammas > develops , this is a condition for panna to gradually understand more > different types of dhammas. Kusala and akusala have to be known, thinking > has to be known, understanding itself has to be known as only a nama, > otherwise we shall cling to it, take it for my understanding. > No need to go apart, if we concentrate on one object than all the other > objects that are impinging will not be known. Moreover, when we try to > concentrate there is bound to be clinging, not understanding. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, but concentrating on one object can also serve as a preparatory practice, cultivating the mind, making it a more malleable and efficient tool for investigation of dhammas. > > Nina. > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29289 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 0:10pm Subject: Re: The Buddha's disease Hi Nina, Nina: I just have a few observations. I read it in PTS Journal 20. On the first page: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:28pm Subject: rupa questions 2-Nina/Larry Dear Nina and Larry, I'm enjoying reading these, and I have a query. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > thanks for your 7 questions. > op 21-01-2004 01:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > - snip--- > > is only cognized through the mind-door, what is tasted through the > > taste-door? > N: Only flavour can impinge on the smelling sense, it is sensitive to only > flavour. As we read, it picks up an object among odours, not any other type > of object! And then immmediately after the nose-door process, flavour is > experienced through the mind-door. It is all so fast, we do not realize > this. We have learnt that there is an octad, but the other seven do not > contact the smellingsense, even though they arise together with flavour. Nor > are they experienced through the mind-door. > We should not have pictorial ideas about this matter. It is a mystery that ...snip... > Nina. I'm very confused about the above passage, I'm thinking it is just a mix-up of words. I understand flavour can only impinge on the taste sense, however i know that there is a strong connection bet. smell and flavour in the conventional sense, eg. a pleasant food smell will make one's mouth water [or something like that!]. Reading about the octads are interesting, knowing that several rupas arise together but only one can be experienced at a time is very helpful in showing me how impossible it is to 'choose' the object to experience. I think Larry's question are great. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 29291 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:13am Subject: A Taste of Sense-Door Theorizing (Re: [dsg] rupa questions 2-Nina/Larry) Hi, Azita (and Nina, Larry, and all) - In a message dated 1/22/04 6:41:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > I'm very confused about the above passage, I'm thinking it is > just a mix-up of words. I understand flavour can only impinge on > the taste sense, however i know that there is a strong connection > bet. smell and flavour in the conventional sense, eg. a pleasant food > smell will make one's mouth water [or something like that!]. > > Reading about the octads are interesting, knowing that several > rupas arise together but only one can be experienced at a time is > very helpful in showing me how impossible it is to 'choose' the > object to experience. > I think Larry's question are great. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > > ========================== The question you raise here, Azita, is an interesting one, especially as regards the dhamma/pa~n~natti distinction. Taste per se - what might be called "true" taste, namely sweet, sour, or bitter (Is there a 4th?) - is tongue-door object. Odor is nose-door object. But the huge variety of tastes we all experience are evidently based on both true tastes and on odors. Are they pa~n~natti, constructed from true tastes and odors? Perhaps, though they appear to be "actualities." They would form a category of pa~n~natti that is rather odd, I'd say. An alternative possibility is that sweet, sour, and bitter should not be called "true" tastes, but, rather, "basic" tastes. It might well be that other tastes, such as the taste of onion, are not in fact pa~n~natti, but, instead, are also direct tongue-door objects, true rupas, which, as opposed to basic tastes, are conditioned by both taste and smell! This alternative theory, one of conditionality, but not conceptual construction, seems more plausible to me. What do you think - do I have good taste? ;-)) With tasteful metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29292 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 3 Hi Nina and Howard, Thanks for your answers and comments. Have a pleasant journey Nina. Larry 29293 From: Andrew Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness Dear Nina Thank you for your comments. It does help me greatly to consider daily life examples, such as those you provided. My difficulty is remembering to always read things with an understanding of conditionality. So when the authors/editors of the CMA talk of making a deliberate endeavour by determination of the will despite inner resistance, I must remind myself that "trying" can only "succeed" if all the requisite conditions are present - and those conditions are far too complex for me to know in advance (or indeed in retrospect). It is foolish and conceited to preconceive that a person can prompt beautiful consciousness in another - the prompter's action or words may at best form only one of the requisite conditions for BC to arise and may at worst prompt akusala consciousness without any control on the part of the prompter. Metta Andrew Nina wrote:As Ken O explains, it is entirely due to conditions, beyond control. The > citta has already arisen and fallen away before we can do anything. > Afterwards we can reflect on it, but the precise characteristic cannot be > known by reflection. Sometimes I do not like to give something away, but > Lodewijk who is very generous instigates me, and then my giving is prompted. > Or I think of the Buddha's perfection of dana which can prompt me, then it > is an inward prompting. We may wish the kusala cittas to be spontaneous, or > accompanied by happy feeling, but this depends entirely on conditions. So we > should not try or wish for it. They arise already. > 29294 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: FW: [Pali] Buddhaghosa : To Nina Dear Suan, How are you? op 22-01-2004 15:12 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...:> > Your reply to Rett was fair and commendable. > > Was he able to actually quote something from the Buddhaghosa's works? > > If there were specific quotes from commentaries being challenged by > by Rett, please let me know. > I will write a special analytical post to refute their > misunderstandings. N: This is very kind. I do not have sufficient knowledge of Pali to say much. No concrete example yet, but he said in general about the scriptures:< In Burma the Nettipakarana is considered part of the Tipitaka. Not so in Sri Lanka. So again, at some point, someone has altered or added. In a situation such as this it is not surprising that there are people who devote their working lives to learning and studying these texts, trying to sort out which are the best variants, correct scribal mistakes, and shed light on passages which are currently not understood.> N: I found one thing in that clinical article about the Buddha's death by Bikkhu Metananda M.D. He said that the Theravada tradition states that the Buddha passed away full moon in Visakha, whereas in the Parinibbana sutta he passed away just after the rains retreat (between Nov and January). I find dates not so important, but it could be a point of contention. I am closing my Email on Monday, going off to Thailand on Tuesday. If you write to Rett after that, please would you also forward this to my personal address? I am very interested at what you will write about the commentaries. I can also ask Sarah"s help to keep mail. Thank you very much for your help, Nina. 29295 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on Abhidhamma Hi Howard, op 22-01-2004 08:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > Dhamma = Abhidhamma is a false equation. N: Interesting. The more I reflect the more I think it is not false. But, it depends on how you look at it. Abhidhamma: not just one Pitaka. Not just the book. Abhidhamma: ultimate realities.This is the Buddha's message in all his teachings: directly knowing ultimate realities. In all suttas. It is practice. This is what Icaro meant: Abhidhamma is Vipassana. Again, it depends on how you look at it. And different people have different outlooks. Nina. 29296 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element a concept? Hi Howard, op 22-01-2004 18:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > if space is a rupa, then what is the sense door through which it is cognized. N: It is a subtle rupa, only to be cognized through the mind-door. As I understood from A. Sujin, as insight develops in stages, also this rupa can be discerned. But I do not know much about it. I will say something about space in the sutta, but not now. Nina. 29297 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: The Ups and Downs of Meditation Hi Icaro and All, There was a comment in your post that I should have addressed but I overlooked it (a recent post by Nina made me go back to your post). You wrote: "Meditation (Mindfullness is a better term anyway)" I specifically use the term `meditation' because I want to differentiate my meaning of practice from some of the other meanings used by other members in this group. To me, Meditation=Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness. If any of these are missing it isn't true meditation. Mindfulness without Right Effort and Right Concentration is simply being a bit more observant than other people, it isn't anything deeply significant or transformative. Many members in this group like to throw around the Pali term `satipatthana' (Foundations of Mindfulness) as if it can relate to just about anything. That satipatthana can be practiced everyday, in everyway, no matter what is occurring at the present moment. Gosh, if it was only that simple!! ;-)) True satipatthana can only be practiced when body, feelings, mind, and mental events are viewed in and of themselves, with no reference to a `self' behind the events, as they arise. Since there is always a subtle clinging to a `self', then true satipatthana could only be practiced when Right Effort and Right Concentration are present to break through this clinging (Vipassana). Right Mindfulness can be practiced in daily life but without meditation practice as a supporting condition, I don't believe it to be too successful. I hope this explains why I choose the generic term `meditation' more often in this group than being very specific each time. Metta, James 29298 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] rupa questions 2-correction. Dear Azita, Howard, Larry, Sorry, a correction: I wrote: Only flavour can impinge on the smelling sense. Must be: Only odour!! A typo, and this typo continues five times in all! Thus, flavour has to be changed into odour five times. Please, would you add these corrections. op 23-01-2004 00:28 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I'm very confused about the above passage, I'm thinking it is > just a mix-up of words. I understand flavour can only impinge on > the taste sense, however i know that there is a strong connection > bet. smell and flavour in the conventional sense, eg. a pleasant food > smell will make one's mouth water [or something like that!]. N: No wonder I created confusion. Speaking about the Thai food: very savory and fragrant. We cling at once. Who is thinking of coolly, impartially separating the different doorways? But when we have discussed and considered about realities appearing through different doorways, there can be conditions, in between the enjoyment, for a brief moment of awareness of one characteristic. That is, if we do not try or plan anything, this is not in our power. In this way a beginning understanding can become familiar with characteristics. We can also understand that there must be impartiality (equanimity, tatramajjhattata) at that moment. Panna does not go along with like or dislike, it is accompanied by impartiality. Also thinking about food, liking it, and awareness of realities can be objects of understanding. The last mentioned object can help us not to cling to awareness. It is not ours. It seems we smell and taste at the same time, but in reality there are many processes of cittas experiencing objects through a sense-door and through the mind-door. Odour also appears when we are not eating, such as smell of gasoline. A: Reading about the octads are interesting, knowing that several > rupas arise together but only one can be experienced at a time is > very helpful in showing me how impossible it is to 'choose' the > object to experience. N: It shows the intricacy of conditions, and reminds us that it is impossible for us to know them all. A: I think Larry's question are great. N: I agree, I appreciate the brevity of his style, it invites and inspires to consider more. Concise and to the point. Howard writes: I would not say basic tastes, they are just taste which can be experienced without naming it. If panna can see it as just a rupa appearing through the tongue, it leads to detachment. Thinking and defining are other moments, different from tasting. All tastes are true rupas. They arise because of their own conditions. Odour is another rupa, arising because of its own conditions, it has nothing to do with flavour. But when we think of food, by way of conventional terms, we tie them together. We should remember the sutta and the Book of Analysis, where it is said that each sense-cognition has its own domain, and that they do not know each other: Ch 16, 763 (p. 418):< Do not experience each other's object means: Ear consciousness does not experience the object of eye consciousness; eye consciousness does not experience the object of ear consciousness...> and so on with regard to all sense-cognitions. Now to Larry: thanks. I am back Febr. 13. Nina. 29299 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on Abhidhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/23/04 12:19:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 22-01-2004 08:14 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Howard: > >Dhamma = Abhidhamma is a false equation. > N: Interesting. The more I reflect the more I think it is not false. But, it > depends on how you look at it. Abhidhamma: not just one Pitaka. Not just the > book. > Abhidhamma: ultimate realities.This is the Buddha's message in all his > teachings: directly knowing ultimate realities. In all suttas. It is > practice. This is what Icaro meant: Abhidhamma is Vipassana. > Again, it depends on how you look at it. And different people have different > outlooks. > Nina. > =========================== Just to clarify, what I meant was that the Dhamma goes beyond what is conveyed in the books of the Abhidhamma. (It goes beyond even the entire Tipitaka and all communicated teachings. Every teaching is partial, in content and in perspective, and is only a "pointing to".) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29300 From: Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element a concept? Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/23/04 12:22:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 22-01-2004 18:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >if space is a rupa, then what is the sense door through which it is > cognized. > N: It is a subtle rupa, only to be cognized through the mind-door. As I > understood from A. Sujin, as insight develops in stages, also this rupa can > be discerned. But I do not know much about it. I will say something about > space in the sutta, but not now. > Nina. > ========================= Okay. I won't say they there is no such thing. Of course, there *could* be. I would suspect that an alleged rupa knowable only through the mind door, and thus neither sight nor sound nor taste nor tactile sensation, would really not be a rupa, but I don't know that to be so, and I reserve judgement on it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29301 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: heartbase/rebirth Dear Ken O, Yes. The connection is Kamma. The usual simile here is transferring of the flame from near extinguishing candle to a new candle. The flame of old one and the flame of the new candle are different but they are still related. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Icaro and (Htoo) > > To me, heartbase must die when the cuti citta cease to exist, a new > heartbase will be arise with rebirth-linking citta conditioned by > kamma (only in the case where there is nama and rupa). > > Htoo - That sense is now unconsciously being sensed by Connie. The > connection is there. > > Could you clarify bc I am abit confused by what you are saying, the > connection should be kamma and not others. > > > > best wishes > Ken O 29302 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:18am Subject: Re: beginners Dear Sarah and Nina, I will be pleased if you could send off-line mail to me regarding beginner. I am also interested to pile up some notes for beginner. I may put a cake of brick to that large building for beginners. Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Another point. Alan wrote to me saying that he is interested in a tape for > beginners. He will put this on his computer. But, this is the question: who > is a beginner and who is not? About what do we talk to those who have never > studied the Dhamma before? We can ask Kh Sujin, this can be very > interesting. > It is easy to get a selection for Alan and no problem to send them from here > to England. > Nina. 29303 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: heartbase/rebirth Dear Larry, Connie and all, Dosa cannot be transferred to next life through Bhavanga. There is no Bhavanga Citta with Dosa. If your Javana was Dosa, next life Bhavanga would not be Somanassa and would not be Tihetuka. So possible Bhavanga Cittas are 1. Upekkha Sahagatam Nana Vippayutta Asankharika Vipaka Citta 2. ,, ,, ,, Sasankharika ,, 3. ,, ,, Ahetuka Kusala Vipaka Santirana Citta 4. ,, ,, ,, Akusala ,, ,, So hatred of apple may lead to one of these four Patisandhi Citta. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Connie and Htoo, If my last conscious moment manifests as a hatred for apples, > that javana series will have kammic consequences but will the hatred for > apples that manifests countless times as bhavanga in my next life have > any kammic consequences, become a latent tendency, or in any way > characterize my behaviour? > > Larry 29304 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Dear all, No Buddha addicts to anything. All Buddhists know this fact. So there is no further talk on this topic. Dhammantaraya is the worst in ememies. May all beings be free from contamination with impure thoughts. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 29305 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Dear James, How nice you redirected to be on the right path! Jhana is just for Sammasamadhi as one of Eight Parts of The Path. Jhana should not be assume as ecstacy. Jhana is Jhana and ecstacy is ecstacy. If one of illegal drugs is used,one might be in a state of ecstacy but not in Jhana. Jhana finally should not be interpreted as ecstacy. May you be able to reach Jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 29306 From: Eddie Lou Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Hi, All, I think it (the article-`Did Buddha die of Mesenteric Infarction?') may be a subliminal distortion of the real events with added subliminal comments with intent to confuse. I was taken aback also. On arahant's attributes, my guess is how can Buddha grumble and had failing fully enlightened mind ? I hope the writer knows what he is writing. No dosa, I agree with all of you too. I hope this is not made possible just because Buddha never projected himself as above human being in rupa (physical) attributes, you know what I mean. But one thing is we should not have personality worship mentality and have bias for Buddha, you know what I mean. Buddha himself will not like or encourage that worship either. I still think the article is incorrect. Honestly, we all do not know the most recent Buddha in person, but to me, one and only single thing that impresses me is his discourse and concept (Dhamma) of true realities especially in Abidhamma. With such complex details and structures, with so far - no known anomalies or discrepancies over thousands of years of scrutiny. So different from other religious books (I do not agree to the notion of Buddhism as a religion, though). No ordinary person can have such abilities and insights. Even then, I only have read the tidbits or exerpts here and there of his teachings. Another thing (that is maybe really true) in that article is - 'so he told Cunda to bury it.' I think that shows Buddha's out of the norm but is correct response. That also makes me respect him even more. I still believe 'Truth will prevail', maybe even worse than that had already been described about Buddha. So do not worry. We have a saying - 'Those who knows, dig the treasure out, those who are ignorant of its existence, simply walk over and miss it!'. On top of ignorance, stubbornness (continued ignorance ???) is pretty bad. I try not to have dosa here but I am not an arahant yet. Maybe a little agitated. Metta, Eddie --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Nina, > > Nina: I just have a few observations. I read it in > PTS Journal 20. On > the first page: old man, who > grumbled about his failing health and growing age". > An arahat cannot > grumble, he has no dosa. > > James: Honestly, that statement took me aback also. > And the actual > statement was even worse, "who grumbled about his > failing health and > growing senility". Senility can simply mean old age > but it also have ..[Snipped] > respect for the > Buddha, it doesn't decrease it. > > Metta, James 29307 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:26am Subject: another correction rupas2 Hi Larry and friends, In rupas 2, just before L 3 modes of knowing: Earsense is *not* sensitive to tangible object. Add: not. Nina. 29308 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Hi Eddie and All, Eddie: I think it (the article-`Did Buddha die of Mesenteric Infarction?') may be a subliminal distortion of the real events with added subliminal comments with intent to confuse. James: Well, I wouldn't go that far! This article was written by a doctor who left his medical practice to become a Buddhist monk; I think that demonstrates his respect and faith in the Buddha quite sufficiently. I think he just went a little too far to present the juxtaposition of two different views of the Buddha in the Parinibbana sutta. One view of the Buddha was very lofty and the other was more ordinary. This monk/doctor went a little too far to show just how `ordinary' the second view was. Not a big deal and no reason to get overly excited about it. Doctors are not known for being real sensitive with their use of language (…horrible bedside manner! ;-)) Metta, James 29309 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:30pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, You were saying (about two weeks ago): ---------------------- J: > Yes, now that I more fully understand the Abhidhamma I will agree with you that it is an excellent method of understanding more clearly the two truths: the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. Unfortunately, the mistake you are making, and I don't think was intended by the framers of the Abhidhamma, is your thinking that conventional truth is false and that only the ultimate truth is true. This is not correct, THEY ARE BOTH TRUE!! Wrap your mind around that a bit and get back to me. ;-) ----------------------- I do have trouble wrapping my mind around the point you are making. I believe that the Buddha taught ultimate truth -- full stop! This gets me into a bit of trouble, not just with you, but with many, less-zealous, Abhidhamma scholars. Take, for example, the Vinaya rules of training: When it is said that monks should clean their teeth, is that to be understood in terms of ultimate reality? I think so. Monks, teeth, toothpicks; these are mere conventional designations (concepts). They are ideas triggered by ultimate realities (dhammas) and, logically, they can be consistent or inconsistent -- depending on those dhammas. The concept of a monk cleaning his teeth is logically consistent (there are no flying purple elephants involved); but it doesn't lead to right understanding. Furthermore, I would argue, it doesn't even lead to teeth cleaning. (!!) We can conceptualise about a living being who will remember to clean his teeth, trim his dsg posts, speak kindly and wisely; but arisen dhammas are always the only reality. Dhammas arise according to conditions (other dhammas), not according to concepts. Wouldn't you agree, from your own experience, that the monk who is the most adamant – "I will always obey Lord Buddha! I will never break the rules of training!" -- is possibly the most likely to fail? Whereas the monk, who understands conditionality, understands accumulated tendencies (in other words, understands ultimate reality) and concedes his own fallibility, will probably do better. So, I don't think I am being over zealous to the extent you imply here: ------------------------------- J: > Do you realize that you are putting words in the Buddha's mouth? You are saying, "I know that this is what the Buddha said but this is not what he really meant. What he really meant is… -------------------------------- The texts you quote to me always confirm my understanding of satipatthana. Sometimes, I can't believe you would select those particular quotes because they so obviously prove my case and disprove yours. :-) But I do understand that conversation with me can be frustrating: ------------------------------ > Ken: The quote doesn't mention trying; it describes the arising, and the functioning, of right effort. There is a big difference. > > James: Again, you refuse to see the reality of the two truths. > Let's take Howard's Tree for example, I could point to Howard's tree and tell you, "That's Howard's Tree" you would say, "No, that is a conglomeration of rupas processed by cittas." I would say, "Yeah, and it is Howard's Tree also." You would say, "No it is not and if you had more wisdom you would know it is not." And then I would have to string you up on Howard's Tree to show you how real it is! LOL! (Just kidding…really ;-)). --------------------------- I'm glad you were just kidding: For a moment there, my life flashed before my eyes. :-) ------------------------- >Metta, James > > Ps. Oh, I forgot that quote by the Buddha about concentration I promised, here you go (not that it will do much good anyway, you think that he usually didn't REALLY mean what he said): "(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. (4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging- aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." ------------------------------ Beautiful! My point exactly! :-) Kind regards, Ken H 29310 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Ken, James, and all, The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. Did the Buddha characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? May all be happy and well. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > You were saying (about two weeks ago): > > ---------------------- > J: > Yes, now that I more fully understand the Abhidhamma I > will agree with you that it is an excellent method of > understanding more clearly the two truths: the conventional > truth and the ultimate truth. Unfortunately, the mistake you > are making, and I don't think was intended by the framers of > the Abhidhamma, is your thinking that conventional truth is false > and that only the ultimate truth is true. This is not correct, > THEY ARE BOTH TRUE!! Wrap your mind around that a bit and get > back to me. ;-) > ----------------------- > > I do have trouble wrapping my mind around the point you are > making. I believe that the Buddha taught ultimate truth -- full > stop! This gets me into a bit of trouble, not just with you, > but with many, less-zealous, Abhidhamma scholars. [snip] 29311 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Jeff and All Just a couple of points on the interesting sutta text you have quoted. When the Budddha talks about 'lives devoted to pleasure that are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, ... to Nibbana' he is of course referring to kusala states only. There is 'devotion to pleasure' and 'addiction' only in a particular sense of the terms, and for the purpose of responding to the questions of 'wanderers from other sects'. The four fruits to be expected occur by means of the destruction of the fetters, not by virtue of the attainment of the jhanas. Destruction of the fetters is a function of the developement of understanding/insight. For this reason the jhanas are conducive to disenchantment and Nibbana only for those who are 'the followers of the Sakyan', i.e., students of the Dhamma. Without this, there would be no 'connection' between the jhanas and enlightenment. The role of the jhanas in the teachings is not easy to see. But certainly there are suttas describing the enlightenment of followers with no apparent skill in mundane jhana. Jon > Digha Nikaya 29 > Pasadika Sutta > The Delightful Discourse > a translation from the Pali by > Maurice Walshe, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1987, 1995 > > 24.2 There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to > pleasure which > are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to > tranquillity, > to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? > First a monk > detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental > states, enters > and remains in the first jhana, which is with thinking and > pondering, born of > detachment, filled with delight and happiness. And, with the > subsiding of > thinking and pondering, by gaining inner tranquillity and oneness > of mind, he > enters and remains in the second jhana, which is without thinking > and pondering, > born of concentration, filled with delight and happiness. Again, > with the > fading of delight, remaining imperturbable, mindful and clearly > aware, he > experiences in himself that joy of which the Noble Ones say; "Happy > is he who dwells > with equanimity and mindfulness," he enters and remains in the > third jhana. > Again, having given up pleasure and pain, and with the > disappearance of former > gladness and sadness, he enters and remains in the fourth jhana, > which is beyond > pleasure and pain, and purified by equanimity and mindfulness. > > These are the four kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are > entirely > conducive to disenchantment, to cessation, to tranquillity, to > realization, to > enlightenment, to Nibbana. So, if wanderers from other sects > should say that the > followers of the Sakyan are addicted to these four forms of > pleasure seeking, > they should be told: "Yes," for they would be speaking correctly > about you, > they would not be slandering you with false or untrue statements. > > 25. Then such wanderers might ask: "Well then, those who are given > to these > four forms of pleasure-seeking - how many fruits, how many benefits > can they > expect?" And, you should reply: "They can expect four fruits, four > benefits. > What are they? The first is when a monk by destruction of three > fetters has > become a Stream-Winner, no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, > firmly > established, destined for full enlightenment; the second is when a > monk by the > complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, > hatred and > delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more > to this world, > will put an end to suffering; the third is when a monk, by the > destruction of > the corruptions in this very life has, by his own knowledge and > realization, > attained Arahantship, to the deliverance of heart and through > wisdom. Such are > the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to these four > forms of > pleasure-seeking can expect." 29312 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Ch 1, no 7 Nina I'm enjoying this series very much. It is so relevant to daily life. It also brings out very well one of those aspects in which the dhamma is 'contrary' to conventional thinking: it is not the gross defilements that are difficult to eliminate but the very finest, most subtle ones! Thanks again. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > latent tendencies Ch 1, no 7 > > 3. There are three levels of defilements. > In the Commentaries to the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the Abhidhamma, > and in > the Subcommentaries, there are explanations of the elimination of > the three > levels of defilements, namely, the anusaya kilesa (latent > tendencies), the > pariyutthåna kilesa (arising with the akusala citta) and the > vítikkama > kilesa (transgression, misconduct). 29313 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Thoughts on Abhidhamma Hi Howard, op 23-01-2004 13:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Just to clarify, what I meant was that the Dhamma goes beyond what is > conveyed in the books of the Abhidhamma. (It goes beyond even the entire > Tipitaka and all communicated teachings. Every teaching is partial, in content > and > in perspective, and is only a "pointing to".) N: Yes, what we learn from the teachings we have to apply. This is difficult, because we may misunderstand what we hear and read about. We are bound to, because we have the latent tendencies of wrong view and ignorance, deeply accumulated. Therefore we need to discuss, ask questions, verify what we hear ourselves, reflect, associate with friends in the Dhamma, what else? We still struggle along, may go the wrong way and this depends on accumulations in former lives. Nina. 29314 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Dear Eddie, op 23-01-2004 19:37 schreef Eddie Lou op eddielou_us@y...: > I think it (the article-`Did Buddha die of > Mesenteric Infarction?') may be a subliminal > distortion of the real events with added subliminal > comments with intent to confuse. I was taken aback > also. N: I tried to be patient and not have dosa, but I had trouble, just like you. But dosa does not bring anything and is not constructive. E: On arahant's attributes, my guess is how can Buddha > grumble and had failing fully enlightened mind ? I > hope the writer knows what he is writing. N: Yes, I think the Bhikkhu may not have understood what he was writing about. E: But one thing is we should not have personality > worship mentality and have bias for Buddha (snip) N: It depends. When you appreciate the Dhamma and begin to understand it, you may feel gratefulness. Even though the Buddha passed away, you can have kusala citta with gratefulness and respect. This can also be expressed through body and speech. It depends on the culture you feel at home with or your personal inclinations how you express it, there are no rules. The best respect is satipatthana, being mindful and develop understanding of the present moment, that is his teaching. Then you can also discover that when paying respect there are also bound to be cittas with clinging in between. E: Honestly, we all do not know the most recent Buddha in > person, but to me, one and only single thing that > impresses me is his discourse and concept (Dhamma) of > true realities especially in Abidhamma. With such > complex details and structures, with so far - no known > anomalies or discrepancies over thousands of years of > scrutiny. So different from other religious books (I > do not agree to the notion of Buddhism as a religion, > though). No ordinary person can have such abilities > and insights. N: I am really happy you have such respect for the Abhidhamma. And it is meant for application in our life. E: Another thing (that is maybe really true) in that > article is - 'so he told Cunda to bury it.' I think > that shows Buddha's out of the norm but is correct > response. That also makes me respect him even more. N: Bhikkhu Metananda M.D. did not understand the reason. There was another reason. It is said, in several texts, that alsmfood offered to the Buddha but not eaten by him, cannot be partaken of by others. See Verses of Uplift, 82, Pataligama. It is not digestable by others. Devas put special nutrition in it. I do not find this difficult to understand. The Buddha speaks time and again about devas and men. And think of all the suttas about devas. As to the spirit of the article, I generally miss a feeling of respect for the Buddha here. It seems that the Buddha is dealt with as just a clinical case. I appreciate your observations. Nina. 29315 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: beginners Dear Htoo, We try to do something on line, because who is a beginner and who is not:-) I think it will depend on our discussions, I make notes and try to record. Nina. op 23-01-2004 15:18 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > I will be pleased if you could send off-line mail to me regarding > beginner. I am also interested to pile up some notes for beginner. I > may put a cake of brick to that large building for beginners. 29316 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: heartbase/rebirth Dear Htoo, op 23-01-2004 15:27 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Dosa cannot be transferred to next life through Bhavanga. There is no > Bhavanga Citta with Dosa. N: Dosa is accumulated as a latent tendency from life to life, and thus it lies dormant in each citta, not only bhavangacitta, but all cittas, even kusala cittas. From moment to moment. Dosa during the last javanas of a life that produces result is another matter. H: If your Javana was Dosa, next life Bhavanga would not be Somanassa > and would not be Tihetuka. N: In that case akusala kamma produces ahetuka akusala vipaka santiranacitta and all bhavangacittas are of that type. H: So possible Bhavanga Cittas are > > 1. Upekkha Sahagatam Nana Vippayutta Asankharika Vipaka Citta > 2. ,, ,, ,, Sasankharika ,, > 3. ,, ,, Ahetuka Kusala Vipaka Santirana Citta > 4. ,, ,, ,, Akusala ,, ,, > > So hatred of apple may lead to one of these four Patisandhi Citta. N:It can lead only to no 4. There was some discussion on heartbase. The heartbase of this life could not condition the heartbase in a next life, because it is rupa, it cannot be accumulated. Next life may be in a plane where there is no rupa. Nina. 29317 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 11:34pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken, James, and all, > > The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. Did the Buddha > characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? James: Gosh, I love the simple questions! ;-)). He characterized them as both because they are both. > > May all be happy and well. James: My sentiments also! ;-) > > Peace, > Victor Metta, James 29318 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 0:32am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Ken, Ken: I do have trouble wrapping my mind around the point you are making. I believe that the Buddha taught ultimate truth -- full stop! This gets me into a bit of trouble, not just with you, but with many, less-zealous, Abhidhamma scholars. James: Oh Gosh, just when I thought it was safe to get back into the water! ;-)) First, you are not in trouble with me, I think I understand where you are coming from. Did the Buddha just teach Ultimate Truth—Full Stop!?? Of course not. He taught conventional and ultimate truth. They are both true. There is a Zen saying (sorry, but when we get into this type of philosophical territory, I get very Zen! ;-)): When you first study Zen mountains are mountains. Then mountains are no longer mountains. Finally mountains are mountains again. This means that the beginning student of Zen has only the knowledge of the world of samsara: that people are people, mountains are mountains, and that everything is separated and conventional. This thinking comes from the duality of the mind. After the practice of Zen and the student gets the beginning realizations of the ultimate truth (Abhidhamma) then suddenly there aren't any people or mountains anymore, there are only dhammas and nibbana. This thinking also comes from the duality of the mind. Finally, when the ultimate truth is directly realized and the duality of the mind is overcome, people are people, mountains are mountains, and dhammas/nibbana about them all is also known. Ken, you are in the middle stage where there is no conventional truth, only ultimate truth. As soon as you overcome the duality of your mind, you will see that there are both truths. As for myself, I don't claim to know both; however, my empathic senses hardly ever allow me to form a strong duality in my mind. For every realization of ultimate truth that I have, my sense of conventional reality of `entities' pulls me back into the everyday world. Ken: We can conceptualise about a living being who will remember to clean his teeth, trim his dsg posts, speak kindly and wisely; but arisen dhammas are always the only reality. Dhammas arise according to conditions (other dhammas), not according to concepts. James: Okay, I am going to be straight with you even though it will probably freak you out, I don't view people as concepts. Purple elephants are concepts but people are real. The Buddha also didn't teach that people are only concepts; he taught that people are real. If there were only dhammas and nibbana, no people, then the Buddha wouldn't care about the suffering of the world would he? Concepts don't suffer but people do. The Buddha had compassion for all of the entities of the cosmos because he saw that they were real, their suffering was real, and the path to there liberation was possible. It won't be possible for you to understand this deeply because the duality of your mind won't allow it. Ken: Wouldn't you agree, from your own experience, that the monk who is the most adamant – "I will always obey Lord Buddha! I will never break the rules of training!" -- is possibly the most likely to fail? Whereas the monk, who understands conditionality, understands accumulated tendencies (in other words, understands ultimate reality) and concedes his own fallibility, will probably do better. James: Well, this is a very leading question. You want me to answer in a certain way. I cannot predict with any certainty whether a monk is going to succeed or fail the following of precepts with given personal motivations. Let me just say this: Rules are not absolute reality; they only apply in conventional reality. In other words, morality is relative. Those who view morality as the end goal have the wrong view, those who view morality as a means to an end have the right view. Is this what you are looking for? Ken: The texts you quote to me always confirm my understanding of satipatthana. Sometimes, I can't believe you would select those particular quotes because they so obviously prove my case and disprove yours. :-) James: Well, you know, I am just very generous! LOL! You don't see mountains as mountains so no matter what I quote to you, you are going to see only one side of it. Ken: But I do understand that conversation with me can be frustrating: James: No, the fact that you understand this means that it isn't that frustrating really. Ken: Beautiful! My point exactly! :-) James: Hey, you aren't supposed to say that! ;-)) You view the quote about concentration as a description of something that happens, I see it as a lesson for a person to follow and a description of something that happens. It is both for me. The Buddha gave this description for a purpose, as a learning tool, a model to follow. He didn't just tell it as if it was a story. He wasn't like, "Monks, gather around, I want to tell you a story of a perfect monk: There is the case where a monk goes to a secluded place…etc, etc.... Now, wasn't that a nice story? Too bad none of us have a self to influence this to happen. Okay, now go about your business and maybe one day the same thing will happen to you!" ;-)) Metta, James 29319 From: Vijita Teoh Chee Keam Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:04am Subject: Angulimala Nina, Thanks for your elaboration. You'd pointed out essential details which keep others "clinging" for further answers. I know my weaknessess, will learn for betterment. Sadhu, Vijita 29320 From: Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi, James (and Victor) - In a message dated 1/24/04 2:36:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > >Hi Ken, James, and all, > > > >The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. Did the Buddha > >characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? > > James: Gosh, I love the simple questions! ;-)). He characterized > them as both because they are both. > > > > >May all be happy and well. > > James: My sentiments also! ;-) > > > > >Peace, > >Victor > > Metta, James > > =========================== I don't think he actually characterized them as both, James, because I'm not aware of his having having dealt with the distinction in the suttas at all. I'm not aware of the Buddha having taught any suttas about "mere concept" in the Sutta Pitaka. I think that the distinction between conventional truth (involving true statements pertaining to conventional phenomena) and literal truth (involving true statements pertaining to phenomena that are not projections of concepts, but are actual and direct objects of experience) is a valid one, but is not a clearly demarcated one. For example, consider the sentence "No sight, sound, taste, smell, odor, or mind-door object is me or mine." That sentence is true, I certainly believe. On the surface, it deals with paramattha dhammas, and it is a perfect instance of paramattha sacca - about as much as any sentence could be. But what of the language of this sentence? It speaks of sights, sounds, odors, and mind-door objects, syntactically, as things. Implicitly, this language deals with entire categories of dhammas, also, and that makes it conventionaI. Moreover, the language *has* to deal with "things". That is how language works. Now, isn't the noun phrase "mind-door object" a general concept? Well, yes, but the instances of it do occur - so the concept isn't merely imagined/projected. So, that usage may fall on the literal/ultimate side, I suppose. What about the word 'is', signifying the bearing of a characteristic? Is "is-ness" directly observed, or is it a mind construct? I don't know, but I think it is a mind construct. (Paramattha dhammas such as hardness don't *have* conditions - they *are* conditions.) Also, the sentence, though in a negative way, does use the words 'me' and 'mine'. They are concepts. And many maintain that the Buddha implied they are *empty* concepts, and thus *merely* conventional. So, even a sentence that is normally said to express "ultimate truth," even the quintessence of ultimate truth, is difficult to pidgeonhole. As far as the four noble truths are concerned, it seems to me that they are conventional truths, as are assertions with regard to dependent origination and the tilakkhana. What could be more conventional than statements asserting that birth is suffering, death is suffering, having what one doesn't want is suffering, and being separated from what one does want is suffering? This is completely conventional, and perfectly true. In fact, all language is conventional and concept-bound. there is no escaping that. To discuss what is actually experienced requires the use of terms and concepts whose alleged referents are not actually experienced. There is no escape from convention in speech or in thought. Speech and thought are mere pointings. Still, isn't there a real difference between sights, sounds, tastes, and body-sense and mind-sense phenomena, on the one hand, and such things as trees, cars, molecules, and governments, on the other? I believe there is. But as soon as we open our mouth, the distinction evaporates! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29321 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:43am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Howard (All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Victor) - > > In a message dated 1/24/04 2:36:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > > >Hi Ken, James, and all, > > > > > >The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. Did the Buddha > > >characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? > > > > James: Gosh, I love the simple questions! ;-)). He characterized > > them as both because they are both. > > > > > > > >May all be happy and well. > > > > James: My sentiments also! ;-) > > > > > > > >Peace, > > >Victor > > > > Metta, James > > > > > =========================== > I don't think he actually characterized them as both, James, because > I'm not aware of his having having dealt with the distinction in the suttas at > all. I'm not aware of the Buddha having taught any suttas about "mere concept" > in the Sutta Pitaka. Well, I should have known I wouldn't get off that easy! ;-)) I couldn't just answer the question, NOW I have to explain my answer! ;-)) I agree with you that all language is conventional, but I do believe that language can point to things that are conventional and other things that are ultimate. Let me go through a very quick analysis of why I believe the Four Noble Truths are presented on both a conventional and ultimate level: First Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of Dukkha: "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. <> In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha. <>" Second Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of the Origination of Dukkha: "And this, monks is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensual pleasure <>, craving for becoming, craving for non- becoming. <>" Third Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Dukkha: "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha: the remainderless fading & cessation <>, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving. <>" Fourth Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Dukkha: ""And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." < Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Angulimala Dear Vijita Teoh, op 24-01-2004 10:04 schreef Vijita Teoh Chee Keam op cheekeam@t...: > > Thanks for your elaboration. You'd pointed out essential details which keep > others "clinging" for further answers. I know my weaknessess, will learn for > betterment. N: There is nothing wrong asking further questions, keep on asking. Discussing difficult points is always good, for both parties. Nina. 29323 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body )/James, Ken H Hi Ken H and James, I did not intend to butt in, I have too many last minute chores, and also we have to attend to my father, his mental problems. But I read here: Ken: said that monks should clean their teeth, is that to be > understood in terms of ultimate reality?> Reading in the Vinaya about the monk's daily life is most inspiring and helpful. The monks were not sitting all the time at the roots of trees, and not all of them were doing so. They had to walk out for almsfood, had to clean their kutis, remove cobwebs, wash and mend robes, etc. The Buddha laid down rules for many reasons: the wellbeing of the Sangha, inspiring confidence in the faithful, etc. but whatever the monks were doing his message was: do not forget to develop understanding of nama and rupa now. This does not imply denying the conventional realities of daily life. We can stand with both feet planted firmly on the ground, and at the same time develop understanding of what things really are. The conventional truth does not exclude ultimate truth, and ultimate truth does not exclude conventional truth. I am happy to read about the monk's daily life, it is inspiring for laypeople who also have to do their chores, often similar chores. I am usually distracted when cleaning teeth, thinking of many different things. But what is there in the ultimate sense: different namas and rupas. If we are not aware, it is self and mine all the time. Thank you Ken, for this reminder! I think again of the satipatthana sutta: the monk should develop sati and panna no matter he is walking, sitting, etc. Satipatthana in daily life is by no means an easy way out. It is constant checking, verifying, reflection, considering. We have to check constantly whether the Path we are walking is well grounded on the Tipitaka and this is not easy. We should not read only one Pitaka, but all three. Not one sutta, but many. We should be honest to ourselves: do we take for kusala what is akusala? Do we develop all perfections, none excluded? I like Ken's sutta at the end: <(4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging- aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents."> When we compare with many other suttas we can understand what concentration implies here: it is actually calm that goes together with deep understanding of the five khandhas, of nama and rupa. This is very deep, the sutta does not only refer to the momentary falling away of the khandhas, it also refers to the Dependent Origination, and that is, when ignorance ceases, there is the end of the cycle, no more arising of nama and rupa. Nina. ------------------------------ op 24-01-2004 03:30 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Take, for example, the Vinaya rules of training: When it is > said that monks should clean their teeth, is that to be > understood in terms of ultimate reality? I think so. Monks, > teeth, toothpicks; these are mere conventional designations > (concepts). They are ideas triggered by ultimate realities > (dhammas) and, logically, they can be consistent or > inconsistent -- depending on those dhammas. 29324 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Ch 1, no 7 Dear Jon, How kind of you to write to me from the beach! I agree, we have to go to the root of the evil. Knowing about the latent tendencies will prevent us deluding ourselves that we do not have wrong view, wrong practice, conceit. But I realize that theoretical understanding about them is not enough. I hope both of you have a good rest, Nina. op 24-01-2004 05:42 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > I'm enjoying this series very much. It is so relevant to daily life. > > It also brings out very well one of those aspects in which the dhamma > is 'contrary' to conventional thinking: it is not the gross > defilements that are difficult to eliminate but the very finest, most > subtle ones! 29325 From: Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi again, James & Victor - In a message dated 1/24/04 8:32:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Still, isn't there a real difference between sights, sounds, tastes, > and body-sense and mind-sense phenomena, on the one hand, and such things as > > trees, cars, molecules, and governments, on the other? I believe there is. > But > as soon as we open our mouth, the distinction evaporates! ;-) > ========================== Perhaps I should explain what I mean by "As soon as we open our mouth, the distinction evaporates!" What I mean is that as soon as we speak or write or think, it is all concept-only. For example, the "hardness" we think of is not the hardness we directly experience. Thus even the thought of a hardness, no longer directly references the intended paramattha dhamma - it references a constructed concept forged by the mind from memories of many actual hardnesses of varying degrees and sorts. As the Korean Son master, Seung Sahn, says, "Open mouth already a mistake!" (So .. I apologize for opening mine! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29326 From: Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:42am Subject: To All Who Celebrate the New Year at This Time Hi, all - Happy Chinese/Asian New Year! (Check out the web site below. :-) With metta, Howard > http://annualecard.tsmc.com.tw/inet/harmony1.swf /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29327 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:42pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/Victor Hi Victor, You asked: ---------------------------- > Did the Buddha characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? ---------------- As ultimate – as has been explained, at length, here at DSG, more or less continuously, for the past three years. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 29328 From: Eddie Lou Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Hi, Nina, Thanks for filling in and expanding and enlightening me esp. on the info that food unfinished by Buddha had been supplemented with nutrients by Devas. Thanks for that info (I am ignorant on this) and also glad I was understood. Again, another reader (James) also mentioned the writer is a Buddhist monk and is or was a medical physician. I actually knew beforehand but somehow overlooked the fact. Thanks James for the input. Bc Buddhists are accorded true freedom, but they do have to be aware of the consequences (ie - kusala or akusala). That is another reason, I like Buddhism for not being dogmatic. I think Buddha will not have minded of his criticism (Kalama Sutta mentioned that - do not believe anything without checking them out and I tend to think his own words are no exception, if so he is so great). He can say his mind but should be careful to say more clearly if it his own opinion or a hearsay. Lest it can be taken as a true fact that Buddha really grumbled, senility and so on and so forth. That itself can be seen as anomalies as we understand what it (in modern terms, - the model) means to be a fully-enlightened Buddha. His physical body maybe just like us, subject to wear and tear but his mind/wisdom ??? , I do not think so. That complete, all-knowing wisdom of his is the single crowning attribute (achieved the hard way by almost countless - more than 100,000 worlds (not 100,000 lives) - of parami/merits accumulation) that made any fully-enlightened Buddha totally different from us and even Pacceka Buddhas. I will be happy to be corrected. I think, the website should also have it proof-read and edited properly as to its correctness. Metta, Eddie Lou --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Eddie, > op 23-01-2004 19:37 schreef Eddie Lou op > eddielou_us@y...: > > I think it (the article-`Did Buddha die of > > Mesenteric Infarction?') may be a subliminal > > distortion of the real events with added > subliminal > > comments with intent to confuse. I was taken aback > > also. > N: I tried to be patient and not have dosa, but I > had trouble, just like > you. But dosa does not bring anything and is not > constructive. > E: On arahant's attributes, my guess is how can > Buddha > > grumble and had failing fully enlightened mind ? I > > hope the writer knows what he is writing. > N: Yes, I think the Bhikkhu may not have understood > what he was writing > about. > E: But one thing is we should not have personality > > worship mentality and have bias for Buddha (snip) > N: It depends. When you appreciate the Dhamma and > begin to understand it, > you may feel gratefulness. Even though the Buddha > passed away, you can have > kusala citta with gratefulness and respect. This can > also be expressed > through body and speech. It depends on the culture > you feel at home with or > your personal inclinations how you express it, there > are no rules. The best > respect is satipatthana, being mindful and develop > understanding of the > present moment, that is his teaching. Then you can > also discover that when > paying respect there are also bound to be cittas > with clinging in between. > E: Honestly, we all do not know the most recent > Buddha in > > person, but to me, one and only single thing that > > impresses me is his discourse and concept (Dhamma) > of > > true realities especially in Abidhamma. With such > > complex details and structures, with so far - no > known > > anomalies or discrepancies over thousands of years > of > > scrutiny. So different from other religious books > (I > > do not agree to the notion of Buddhism as a > religion, > > though). No ordinary person can have such > abilities > > and insights. > N: I am really happy you have such respect for the > Abhidhamma. And it is > meant for application in our life. > E: Another thing (that is maybe really true) in > that > > article is - 'so he told Cunda to bury it.' I > think > > that shows Buddha's out of the norm but is correct > > response. That also makes me respect him even > more. > N: Bhikkhu Metananda M.D. did not understand the > reason. There was another > reason. It is said, in several texts, that alsmfood > offered to the Buddha > but not eaten by him, cannot be partaken of by > others. See Verses of Uplift, > 82, Pataligama. It is not digestable by others. > Devas put special nutrition > in it. I do not find this difficult to understand. > The Buddha speaks time > and again about devas and men. And think of all the > suttas about devas. > As to the spirit of the article, I generally miss a > feeling of respect for > the Buddha here. It seems that the Buddha is dealt > with as just a clinical > case. > I appreciate your observations. > Nina. 29329 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:17pm Subject: Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness-Andrew Dear Andrew, Sorry its taken me a while to get back to you about this one. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Your question - can I prompt BC? Well, BC can be prompted > by "deliberate endeavour" it seems. This is where we get into the > conventional/ultimate discourse muddles. How would you phrase > it? Mmmmm - deliberate endeavour - like when I am talking with someone, want to say something about an absent 3rd person, and 'deliberately bite-my-tongue' so I won't say anything bad. For me, its that grey area where I seem to be doing something good, but in reality it is only a moment of restraint, very dependent on various conditions. Hopefully one of those conditions being a developing wisdom - but how would we know? I guess its all our kilesa that makes us think it is 'us' that do good things/bad things. I believe that by knowning about kusala/akusala can be a condition for that 'deliberate endeavour'. There is endeavour and there is restraint, but its not 'me'. > I hear you're getting some rain at long last? Enjoy it. > Metta > Andrew Yes, and quite a bit of rain too. And I am enjoying it. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. 29330 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:43pm Subject: Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. Dear Sarah, Hoping the subject title will attract your attention :) A question for T.A. Sujin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Latent Tendencies, Ch 1, no 9. -snip- > We see from these text quotations that there are three levels of > defilements: > Defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), coarse defilements > of the degree of unwholesome courses of action. > Defilements one is possessed by and that arise (pariyutthåna kilesa) are > medium defilements that disturb the citta. > Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie dormant > in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the four Paths (at the > four stages of enlightenment). > To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own distinct > nature and characteristic. Why are the defilements grouped like this? It is my understanding that they are all of the akusala cetasikas, or most of them, so what is the advantage to developing wisdom, to know these different degrees? Hello to Jon and hope you are enjoying your rest time. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 29331 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:20pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, ---------------- J: > When you first study Zen mountains are mountains. Then mountains are no longer mountains. Finally mountains are mountains again. ---------------- I'm not so sure. It's easy to get caught out by these pithy Zen sayings -- we mistake the sound for the meaning. You explain that, when there is direct understanding, there are mountains again. I don't see why. Also, talk in terms of duality/non-duality is lost on me. I've seen these terms in Mahayana books, without ever really understanding them. Fortunately, as a Theravada student, I don't need to. But thanks for the explanation, anyway. :-) --------------- J: > Okay, I am going to be straight with you even though it will probably freak you out, I don't view people as concepts. Purple elephants are concepts but people are real. The Buddha also didn't teach that people are only concepts; he taught that people are real. -------------------------- You were right! I am freaked out! :-) Where did you get the idea that people are real? Buddhists don't believe it, scientists don't believe it; you're on your own, I think. ------------------------- J: > If there were only dhammas and nibbana, no people, then the Buddha wouldn't care about the suffering of the world would he? ------------------------ That's a good point. Certainly, the Buddha did care, but in what sense? Not in the sense of `upset and worry.' Not in the sense that he was an abiding entity that cared about other abiding entities. Even when people saw and heard the Buddha, there was no abiding entity, no living being; there were only dhammas -- (beautiful dhammas such as panna, karuna and metta). ---------------- >> Ken: Wouldn't you agree, from your own experience, that the monk who is the most adamant – "I will always obey Lord Buddha! I will never break the rules of training!" -- is possibly the most likely to fail? Whereas the monk, who understands conditionality, understands accumulated tendencies (in other words, understands ultimate reality) and concedes his own fallibility, will probably do better. >> > > James: Well, this is a very leading question. You want me to answer in a certain way. I cannot predict with any certainty whether a monk is going to succeed or fail the following of precepts with given personal motivations. Let me just say this: Rules are not absolute reality; they only apply in conventional reality. In other words, morality is relative. Those who view morality as the end goal have the wrong view, those who view morality as a means to an end have the right view. Is this what you are looking for? > ---------------- What I was looking for was; "Oh yes, I agree with you completely: Usually, when we think we are keeping the precepts, there is simply rite and ritual. The genuine, ultimate, morality exists only in a moment of consciousness -- a billionth of a second -- when kusala citta is accompanied by virati (abstention from wrong doing)." :-) Thanks again for quoting that sutta on concentration: (Nina, please note, it was James who deserved credit for this, not me. :- ) ) ------------------------------------ J: > You view the quote about concentration as a description of something that happens, I see it as a lesson for a person to follow and a description of something that happens. It is both for me. The Buddha gave this description for a purpose, as a learning tool, a model to follow. He didn't just tell it as if it was a story. He wasn't like, "Monks, gather around, I want to tell you a story of a perfect monk: There is the case where a monk goes to a secluded place…etc, etc.... Now, wasn't that a nice story? Too bad none of us have a self to influence this to happen. Okay, now go about your business and maybe one day the same thing will happen to you!" ;-)) --------------------------------- Even though you send it up, at least you see the Abhidhamma point of view. I'm glad of that; previously, it has seemed as if the message was not getting through. All we can hope to do is hear the Buddha's teaching. At dsg, the idea is to hear the teaching `as found in the ancient Theravada texts.' There is no expectation that we believe it or that we accept it as the genuine teaching of the Buddha – just that we know what those texts are saying. The way you put it: ".... Now, wasn't that a nice story? Too bad none of us have a self to influence this to happen," is fair comment, I think. As the suttas tell us, the flood is crossed, not by striving, and not by standing still. There is no self who can influence right concentration to happen. But really, it's not "too bad," it's beautiful! Kind regards, Ken H 29332 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, I like this sutta very much, even taking it with me!. Nina op 24-01-2004 17:43 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > so I recommend the Sammaditthi Sutta with > its invaluable commentary where Ven. Sariputta goes through a > systematic analysis of mundane Right View and supramundane Right View > and how each of them create a mundane Eightfold Path and a > supramundane Eightfold Path: 29333 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, Howard, Ken, and all, Thank you, James, Howard, and Ken, for your replies. As I understand your responses, there are three different positions given in your replies regarding the question: "Did the Buddha characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional?" 1. The Buddha characterized the Four Noble Truths as both ultimate and conventional. 2. The Buddha did not characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional (or both, for that matter.) 3. The Buddha characterized the Four Noble Truths as ultimate. If the Buddha indeed characterized the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or as both ultimate and conventional, could anyone find a reference to the discourses in the Pali Canon indicating that the Buddha did characterize the Four Noble Truths as such? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Howard (All), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Victor) - > > > > In a message dated 1/24/04 2:36:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > > > > > > Hi Victor, > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > > wrote: > > > >Hi Ken, James, and all, > > > > > > > >The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. Did the Buddha > > > >characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? > > > > > > James: Gosh, I love the simple questions! ;-)). He characterized > > > them as both because they are both. > > > > > > > > > > >May all be happy and well. > > > > > > James: My sentiments also! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > >Peace, > > > >Victor > > > > > > Metta, James > > > > > > > > =========================== > > I don't think he actually characterized them as both, James, > because > > I'm not aware of his having having dealt with the distinction in > the suttas at > > all. I'm not aware of the Buddha having taught any suttas > about "mere concept" > > in the Sutta Pitaka. > > > Well, I should have known I wouldn't get off that easy! ;-)) I > couldn't just answer the question, NOW I have to explain my answer! > ;-)) > > I agree with you that all language is conventional, but I do believe > that language can point to things that are conventional and other > things that are ultimate. Let me go through a very quick analysis of > why I believe the Four Noble Truths are presented on both a > conventional and ultimate level: > > First Noble Truth: The Noble Truth of Dukkha: > "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, > aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & > despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; > separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is > dukkha. <> In short, the five clinging-aggregates are > dukkha. <>" [snip] > > Metta, James 29334 From: Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:42pm Subject: The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi, all - There is the following from the Sammaditthi Sutta to be found on ATI at the address (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn009.html) 54. "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention -- these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements -- these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration. This reiterates that namarupa is dependent on consciousness. ("With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality.") If feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention, and the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements all arise dependent on consciousness and cease with the cessation of consciousness, as this directly says, then all conditioned objects of consciousness are dependent on consciousness, and do not exist independent of consciousness. In particular, rupas do not exist other than as objects of consciousness. And, hence, the Buddha instructed: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train yourself." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29335 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:55pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hello James, Howard, Ken, Victor, and all, I think these two suttas below may have relevance. Bhikkhu Bodhi says in his introduction to the Khandhavagga p840: "Examination of the five aggregates plays a critical role in the Buddha's teaching for at least four reasons. First, because the five aggregates are the ultimate referent of the first noble truth, the noble truth of suffering and since all four truths revolve around suffering, understanding the aggregates is essential for understanding the Four Noble Truths as a whole. Second, because the five aggregates are the ojective domain of clinging and as such contribute to the causal origination of future suffering. Third, because the removal of clinging is necessary for the attainment of release, and clinging must be removed from the objects around which its tentacles are wrapped, namely, the five aggregates. And fourth, because the removal of clinging is achieved by wisdom, and the kind of wisdom needed is precisely clear insight into the real nature of the aggregates." 56 Saccasamyutta 13 (3) Aggregates p.1847 Bodhi "Bhikkhus, there are these Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "And what bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging; that is, the form aggregate subject to clinging... the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the noble truth of suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering? It is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination. This is called the noble truth of the origin of suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? It is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it. This is called the noble truth of the cessation of suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view ... right concentration. This is called the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "These, bhikkhus, are the Four Noble Truths. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: "This is suffering' ... An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.'" 14 (4) Internal Sense Bases "Bhikkhus, there are these Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffer. "And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the six internal sense bases. What six? the eye base.... the mind base. This is called the noble truth of suffering." (The rest of the sutta is identical with (13).) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, Howard, Ken, and all, > > Thank you, James, Howard, and Ken, for your replies. As I > understand your responses, there are three different positions given > in your replies regarding the question: "Did the Buddha characterize > the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional?" > > 1. The Buddha characterized the Four Noble Truths as both ultimate > and conventional. > > 2. The Buddha did not characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate > or conventional (or both, for that matter.) > > 3. The Buddha characterized the Four Noble Truths as ultimate. > > If the Buddha indeed characterized the Four Noble Truths as ultimate > or as both ultimate and conventional, could anyone find a reference > to the discourses in the Pali Canon indicating that the Buddha did > characterize the Four Noble Truths as such? > > Peace, > Victor 29336 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Hi Eddie, Nina, James, everyone on this thread, Eddie wrote ------------------------ He can say his mind but should be careful to say more clearly if it his own opinion or a hearsay. Lest it can be taken as a true fact that Buddha really grumbled, senility and so on and so forth. ------------------------- I wouldn't want to fall into the trap of slandering the Buddha. However, isn't it true that his mental faculties, just like his physical faculties, did become impaired by old age? This wouldn't have led him to behave in a confused or undignified manner, but it may have manifested in other ways – tiredness, for example. Robert K, if I understood him correctly, has explained that deterioration of the heart base does not impair mind-door consciousness. I take this to mean that, when we grow old and feeble (senile even), right mindfulness can still be conditioned to arise – there can still be progress towards the Eightfold Path (provided the conditions have been put in place, of course.) Kind regards, Ken H 29337 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Dear KenH,Nina, Eddie, James and all, In the Jara Sutta (SN XLVIII.41) - Old Age The Buddha is now a wrinkled old man -- but one who has conquered aging, illness, and death. "there's a discernible change in his faculties -- the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body." His thinking and reasoning processes are not affected. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn48-041.html metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Eddie, Nina, James, everyone on this thread, > > Eddie wrote > ------------------------ > He can say his mind but should be careful to say more > clearly if it his own opinion or a hearsay. Lest it > can be taken as a true fact that Buddha really > grumbled, senility and so on and so forth. > ------------------------- > > I wouldn't want to fall into the trap of slandering the Buddha. > However, isn't it true that his mental faculties, just like his > physical faculties, did become impaired by old age? This wouldn't > have led him to behave in a confused or undignified manner, but it > may have manifested in other ways – tiredness, for example. > > Robert K, if I understood him correctly, has explained that > deterioration of the heart base does not impair mind-door > consciousness. I take this to mean that, when we grow old and feeble > (senile even), right mindfulness can still be conditioned to arise – > there can still be progress towards the Eightfold Path (provided the > conditions have been put in place, of course.) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 29338 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Dear James, you do not get ecstasy (jhana) without concetration). How Applied and Sustained Concentration (Vitakka And Vicára) Leads to Ecstatic Absorption (jhana/dhyana/kundalini) There has been some question regarding whether spiritual absorption can be accomplished via applied and sustained concentration or applied and sustained thought. In the Pali canon two words Vitakka and Vicára are used to refer to a method of access to spiritual absorption (jhana) via some willful direction of one's awareness through a process of sustained application. Scholars believe it is applied and sustained thought. My argument is, how can applied and sustained thought lead to absorption? That is what everyone has been doing all along, and it has not lead to anything but a busy mind, unhappiness and strife (dukkha). Therefore I conclude Vitakka and Vicára must mean applied and sustained concentration. How is concentration is different from thought? I use concentration for the reflections that are spoken of in the Sati (meditation) suttas, such as the awareness of the body (inside and out), the senses, and the mental states and mental objects. For me to explain concentration and how I use it is no small conversation, because it requires explaining a number of things, therefore I am afraid I will not be able to cover the whole subject in a single message. First let me explain how I use the term 'concentration.' It is simply a turning of the awareness to an object, say in this case the observation of the breath. Coincident to this process is an effort to still the cognitive processes of thinking, reasoning, memory and perception. In the process of engaging in concentration, the awareness can wander to other objects, so there is an effort to bring the awareness back to the object. Therefore this process is consistent with an applied and sustained effort that the Pali terms 'Vitakka And Vicára' imply. But, this is not a thought process for me. Thinking engages the cognitive process listed above, whereas what I have described suspends them, and seeks just awareness directed toward a single object. Since I am intent on ecstatic absorption (jhana/dhyana), then I use the objects of awareness [the breath, body (inside and out), the senses, and the mental states and mental objects] as a "home base" as it is recommended in the three Sati suttas. But, once charismatic manifestations (jhana-nimitta) arise, then they become the new "objects" of concentration. By the time the charisms (jhana-nimitta) have arisen, then the cognitive processes have fully subsided and calm abiding is thus fully established. Therefore there is no reason to keep directing and redirecting the awareness to the "object." It is as though the awareness has fused with the object, which is now, as I have said, the various charismatic manifestations or charisms (jhana-nimitta). It is at this time that the first absorption (jhana/dhyana) naturally and inexorably leads to the second absorption, but only if one is both sensitive to charisms (jhana-nimitta), and is willing to let go of the object of concentration. In the case of the various meditations on the breath, body (inside and out), the senses, and the cognitive processes, they are just objects of meditation. I only remain with them until charisms (jhana-nimitta) have arisen. Once charisms have arisen, then the breath, body, senses and mind are no longer my object of concentration. I am as the Buddha instructed, "sensitive to pleasure," a pleasure that is "not of the senses," which are these charisms. When that pleasure arises, I ignore the sense objects that do not lead to the pleasure of ecstatic absorption (jhana/dhyana), therefore I become "secluded" from the objects of the senses. Throughout the day I practice concentration as awareness of the breath, the body (inside and out), the senses, and the mental states and mind objects. I am always aware of relinquishing any grasping and aversion as they arise. I endeavor to still the cognitive processes of thinking, reasoning, memory and perception, thus maintaining calm abiding throughout the day. And, I am always "sensitive to pleasure," a pleasure that is "not of the senses," which are the charisms (jhana-nimitta). I begin each day with a few hours of meditation. Every day I lead at least one 1 hour public meditation, and I end each day with a couple more hours of meditation. Every time I sit charisms (jhana-nimitta) arise and fill me throughout the sit. And in this way charisms have not only become a regular feature of my daily sitting practice regimen, but they have also become a regular feature of my moment-to-moment mindfulness practice as well. Therefore my mind is calm and tranquil throughout my sits, as well as throughout the day. And, I have become saturated and suffused with charisms (jhana-nimitta) throughout my sits as well as throughout the day. This is how 30 years of daily meditation practice has led to ecstatic absorption (jhana), and a saturation in charismatic manifestations (jhana-nimitta), which have so flooded my awareness domain that the pains of aging, such as arthritis, and tooth decay, are no longer with me. And, when I have illnesses, such as the passing of kidney stones a few years ago, there is no pain, just charisms (jhana-nimitta) have replaced all of the sensations. Thus I have become saturated and suffused with a pleasure that is "not of the senses," charisms (jhana-nimitta). This is how I have become established in the fourth absorption (jhana/dhyana) as my base of awareness. Please note: I use jhana-nimitta (a Pali term) to mean the various charismatic manifestations of ecstasy, or what the Buddha called "a pleasure that is not of the senses." These are the same as the common term kundalini. The Buddha's discourses on meditation and awareness training (Sati) are described in these suttas (sutras): Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html I have made modifications to the translation of the above suttas to accommodate a more ecstatic absorption (jhana) appropriate rendering. If anyone is interested in this version of the translation then they are on the Jhana Support Group at this URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/files/ Thank-you for your kind interest, Jeff Brooks Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > Jeff: I have had many people say that I might have become addicted to > ecstasy. I have been saying, no, all along because ecstasy requires > dispassion and equanimity for it to emerge and deepen, whereas > addiction is based upon grasping and aversion. > > James: I wouldn't say that you are addicted to ecstasy, that would be > going too far, but I do think that you put too much emphasis on > ecstasy. The practice of Jhana is to develop the powers of the mind, > ecstasy just happens to be a `side-effect' of that practice. When > you focus on how tingly and good jhana makes your whole body feel, > and the images and psychic abilities it gives you, you have lost the > point of the practice and you will remain stuck in the first stages. > Ecstasy isn't wisdom and the point to doing Jhana is to eventually > develop the mind to the level where wisdom arises. > > I wish that I could do jhana meditation but I don't have the > dedication to the practice that you have. I could NOT meditate for > an hour each morning, several hours each evening, and then even more > hours on the weekend like you do! But, that is what Jhana requires. > From the outside people are going to think that you have gone looney > or something, let them think what they want. But, I would recommend > that you stop focusing on the `ecstasy' part of Jhana and start > focusing more on the `concentration' part. > > Metta, James 29339 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hello Htoo Naing, it does not seem that you understand the Language of Ecstasy in English, nor does it seem you understand the central importance of ecstasy (jhana) in Buddhism. I have found the Pali term 'jhana' is too often regarded as a dirty word in many Buddhist circles. I find that remarkable since the Buddha mentions it in almost every sutta, and in the Digha Nikaya alone it has 19 references in the glossary. And, even when jhana is acknowledged then its definition as ecstasy is too often denied. The term 'ecstasy' has been used as a word to describe the experience of enlightenment by English speaking contemplatives for quite some time. Also, please take note that Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross used Spanish terms that have been translated into the English as 'ecstasy' to describe the experiences in their contemplative practice. And, they described 7 absorption states. Therefore I believe it is reasonable to assume that the term 'ecstasy' is a valid translation of the Pali term jhana. From the Digha Nikaya Glossary jhanas - Absorptions, DN 42, 1.3.21f., n.79, n.50, n.57, n.76f., 2.75ff., 4.33, n.168, 9.10ff., 16.6.8f., 17.2.3, n.583, n.611, 26.28, 29.24, 33.3.3(6), n.1118, n.1127, n.1143 Majjhima Nikaya 59 Bahuvedaniya Sutta a translation from the Pali by Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1995 "The pleasure and joy that arise dependent on the five sense cords (senses)... are called sense pleasure....There is another kind of pleasure here, Ananda, (when one is) secluded from the sense pleasure, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained (concentration) with joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This is that other kind of pleasure (bliss) loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure. Pasadika Sutta DN 29 The Delightful Discourse a translation from the Pali by Maurice Walshe, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1987, 1995 24.2 There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to tranquillity, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? First a monk detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhana... Anapanasati Sutta, MN 118 Awareness of In-&-Out Breathing [6] "One trains oneself to breathe in sensitive to joy, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure." The Language of Ecstasy in English Absorb tr.v. 1. To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices. 2. To occupy the full attention, interest, or time of; engross. See Synonyms at monopolize. 3. Physics. To retain (radiation or sound, for example) wholly, without reflection or transmission. 4. To take in; assimilate: immigrants who were absorbed into the social mainstream. 5. To receive (an impulse) without echo or recoil: a fabric that absorbs sound; a bumper that absorbs impact. 6. To take over (a cost or costs). 7. To endure; accommodate: couldn't absorb the additional hardships. [Middle English, to swallow up, from Old French absorber, from Latin absorbre Absorption n. 1. The act or process of absorbing or the condition of being absorbed. 2. A state of mental concentration. Bliss n. 1. Extreme happiness; ecstasy. 2. The ecstasy of salvation; spiritual joy. Ecstasy n., pl. ecstasies. 1. Intense joy or delight. 2. A state of emotion so intense that one is carried beyond rational thought and self-control. 3. The trance, frenzy, or rapture associated with mystic or prophetic exaltation. [Middle English extasie, from Old French, from Late Latin extasis effusive adj. 1. Unrestrained or excessive in emotional expression; gushy: an effusive manner. 2. Profuse; overflowing: effusive praise. euphoria n. A feeling of great happiness or well-being. [New Latin, from Greek, from euphoros, healthy : eu-, eu- + pherein, to bear; see bher-1 below.] exhilaration n. 1. The act of exalting or the condition of being exalted. 2. A state or feeling of intense, often excessive exhilaration or well-being. See Synonyms at ecstasy. 3. A flight of larks. See Synonyms at flock1. exuberant adj. 1. Full of unrestrained enthusiasm or joy. 2. Lavish; extravagant. 3. Extreme in degree, size, or extent. 4. Growing, producing, or produced abundantly; plentiful: Note: because exhilaration exuberant have the quality of effusiveness, then I relegate them to the first jhana, which seems to be typified by a youthful and gushy kind of joy. Rapture n. 1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. 2. Often raptures. An expression of ecstatic feeling. See Synonyms at ecstasy. 3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. Note: Because 'rapture' has the quality of being transported then I take this to be the Contemplative Christian term for an out-of-body experience. And, since the out-of-body experience typically leaves the subject in a cataleptic trance, then I am going to associate it with the supramundane absorption states trance (trans) n. 1. A hypnotic, cataleptic, or ecstatic state. 2. Detachment from one's physical surroundings, as in contemplation or daydreaming. 3. A semiconscious state, as between sleeping and waking; a daze. Note: because the word 'trance' has the quality of "Detachment from one's physical surroundings in a cataleptic-like state then I believe we should use this term for the Supramundane absorption states. Blessings to you, Jeff Brooks Ecstatic Buddhism A newsletter for ecstatic Buddhists website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ Subscribe: Ecstatic_Buddhism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear James, > > How nice you redirected to be on the right path! Jhana is just for > Sammasamadhi as one of Eight Parts of The Path. > > Jhana should not be assume as ecstacy. Jhana is Jhana and ecstacy is > ecstacy. If one of illegal drugs is used,one might be in a state of > ecstacy but not in Jhana. > > Jhana finally should not be interpreted as ecstacy. > > May you be able to reach Jhana. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 29340 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Ch 1, no 7 Hi, Nina Yes, we are having a good rest, mainly by doing plenty of exercise! The highlight of our day is of course the discussion on the list, which I download each day onto a floppy disk at the local internet cafe and then read with Sarah on my laptop at the hotel. I like what you say about wrong view, wrong practice and conceit. It needs to be known. The more it is seen the better! I hope things go well for you as you prepare to get away. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > How kind of you to write to me from the beach! I agree, we have to > go to the > root of the evil. Knowing about the latent tendencies will prevent > us > deluding ourselves that we do not have wrong view, wrong practice, > conceit. > But I realize that theoretical understanding about them is not > enough. > I hope both of you have a good rest, > Nina. 29341 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. Azita Thanks for the question. It'll be added to the list! Jon PS Yes, having a very restful time, thanks. (Also have just discovered there's an ashtanga centre here on Samui) --- gazita2002 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Hoping the subject title will attract your attention :) > A question for T.A. Sujin. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > > wrote: > > Latent Tendencies, Ch 1, no 9. > > -snip- > > We see from these text quotations that there are three levels of > > defilements: > > Defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), coarse > defilements > > of the degree of unwholesome courses of action. > > Defilements one is possessed by and that arise (pariyutthåna > kilesa) are > > medium defilements that disturb the citta. > > Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that > lie > dormant > > in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the four > Paths (at the > > four stages of enlightenment). > > To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own > distinct > > nature and characteristic. > > Why are the defilements grouped like this? It is my > understanding that they are all of the akusala cetasikas, or most > of > them, so what is the advantage to developing wisdom, to know these > different degrees? > > Hello to Jon and hope you are enjoying your rest time. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita 29342 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:20am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Ken H, Ken: I'm not so sure. It's easy to get caught out by these pithy Zen sayings -- we mistake the sound for the meaning. James: Mistake the sound for the meaning? Huh??? Is that one of those pithy Abhidhamma sayings?? ;-)) Ken: Also, talk in terms of duality/non-duality is lost on me. I've seen these terms in Mahayana books, without ever really understanding them. Fortunately, as a Theravada student, I don't need to. James: Oh yes, those pesky Mahayanas! ;-)) Actually Ken, the Buddha spoke on duality also, it isn't just a Mahayana concept. However, Mahayana Buddhism does take the concept of non-duality a little too far in my opinion. In Theravada the goal is to recognize the duality of Samsara and Nibbana, not to try to make them one. Well, it is a deep subject and no reason to get into it. If you want to educate yourself on the subject of duality, from a Theravada perspective, I would recommend this article: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay27.html Ken: You were right! I am freaked out! :-) Where did you get the idea that people are real? Buddhists don't believe it, scientists don't believe it; you're on your own, I think. James: Really? On my own? Hmmm…then maybe I can form my own cult like K. Sujin? ;-)) If you think that scientists don't believe it then I don't know where you are coming from. You are misunderstanding what I mean by `real'. I mean it in a conventional sense…but you obviously can't think in conventional terms. Ken: Even when people saw and heard the Buddha, there was no abiding entity, no living being; there were only dhammas -- (beautiful dhammas such as panna, karuna and metta). James: Okay, what have you been smoking?? Hehehe…(just kidding). The Buddha wasn't a living being? Well, I guess we will just have to disagree on that one. Haven't you been paying attention to the `Buddha's Disease' thread? The Buddha was once alive and then he was dead. He lived, he died. He was a human being…and he was also a collection of beautiful dhammas. It doesn't have to be either/or. This is what I mean by the duality in your thinking. Ken: What I was looking for was; "Oh yes, I agree with you completely: Usually, when we think we are keeping the precepts, there is simply rite and ritual. The genuine, ultimate, morality exists only in a moment of consciousness -- a billionth of a second -- when kusala citta is accompanied by virati (abstention from wrong doing)." :-) James: If I ever reply like that I want someone to shoot me immediately!! ;-)) Ken: Even though you send it up, at least you see the Abhidhamma point of view. I'm glad of that; previously, it has seemed as if the message was not getting through. James: I'm not sure what `send it up' means. However, yes I finally figured out what all you K Sujinians were trying to say (and I now don't think it is an `Abhidhamma Point Of View', it is very unique to the K. Sujinian group). It was somewhat difficult for me to get the big picture because I consider it pretty off the wall. The Buddha described the Eightfold Path as a path of PRACTICE: "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." Ken, do you notice that very important word `practice'? Do you know what `practice' means?: "prac•tice n.A habitual or customary action or way of doing something: makes a practice of being punctual. Repeated performance of an activity in order to learn or perfect a skill: Practice will make you a good musician. A session of preparation or performance undertaken to acquire or polish a skill: goes to piano practice weekly; scheduled a soccer practice for Saturday. Archaic. The skill so learned or perfected. The condition of being skilled through repeated exercise: out of practice. The act or process of doing something; performance or action: a theory that is difficult to put into practice." However, since you usually only respond to Pali, let me explain in Pali terms: The path of practice includes Pariyatti, Patipatti, and Pativedha. Simply Pariyatti is not enough; there must also be present Patipatti which includes Sila and Samadhi. Understand? (Bet you didn't know I had that in me did you? Hehehe..;-)) Ken: All we can hope to do is hear the Buddha's teaching. At dsg, the idea is to hear the teaching `as found in the ancient Theravada texts.' There is no expectation that we believe it or that we accept it as the genuine teaching of the Buddha – just that we know what those texts are saying. James: This is only pariyatti. Memorizing/Knowing texts alone isn't enough. ;-) Metta, James ps. Okay, I have filled my Pali quota for the New Year!! ;-)) 29343 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates and detachment (was, characteristics) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > As I see it, the distinction between dhammas and pannatti becomes > known as and when dhammas are gradually seen as they truly are. In > other words, pannatti are 'seen' only by the seeing of dhammas; there > is nothing to be seen in pannatti themselves since they are mere > creations of the mind. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I largely agree with that. In fact it is a point I recently made in a post (to Larry, I think) about meditating. However, I don't think the process is entirely linear. As one starts to see the tilakkhana in dhammas, concepts begin to lose their hold. As one starts to see through concepts, it becomes easier to see the nature of dhammas. There is sort of a positive feeback loop between the two levels of developing wisdom. J: It's good to find ourselves in agreement! I'm just not sure about your 'positive feedback loop’ model in this particular instance. The reason I say that is that although the Buddha spoke repeatedly about seeing the tilakkhana in dhammas, I'm not sure he spoke about 'seeing through concepts'. Happy to be corrected, though. ------------------------------------------------- Pannatti do not form part of the 'soil' in> > which understanding can grow. But with the development of panna they > are no longer taken for something that is real. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are likely pretty much in agreement on this, Jon. J: Thanks, Howard. The key, as ever, is the development of panna. There's not a lot else to say;-)) Jon 29344 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:33am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hi Jeff: Jeff: Dear James, you do not get ecstasy (jhana) without concetration). James: Jeff, you missed my point. Jhana is NOT defined as Ecstasy!! If you want just ecstasy, go buy some pills! ;-)) Stop defining Jhana as ecstasy. Jhana is: vitakka (directed thought), vicara (evaluation), piti (rapture), sukha (pleasure), and ekaggatarammana (singleness of preoccupation). You are presently concerning yourself with only piti and sukha and thinking that is everything. That was my point. Metta, James 29345 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:39am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Victor, Victor: If the Buddha indeed characterized the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or as both ultimate and conventional, could anyone find a reference to the discourses in the Pali Canon indicating that the Buddha did characterize the Four Noble Truths as such? James: I already gave references to the Pali Canon to support what I said. Please see post: 29321. If you don't agree or don't think that these are sufficient, I think you should find further references yourself. Metta, James 29346 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > I like this sutta very much, even taking it with me!. I'm glad that you appreciated the sutta. Hope you have a nice time on your trip. Don't worry about a thing. > Nina Metta, James 29347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Space element a concept? Howard I agree with you where you say: 'If you and I "touch the same table," the hardness you experience is not the hardness I experience.' That is of course because the idea of ‘you and I touching the same table’ is a statement of conventional reality, not ultimate reality. The ultimate reality is in each case the experience of hardness. But you go on to say: 'Though they correspond, one is content of your experience and one is content of mine. Each of us experiences an experiential content when we feel hardness, not an external, independent entity.' … 'What we observe is *the content of an experience*, whether it be hardness or space or anything else. Only experiential content is observable, not any alleged "external things".' The idea of 'content of an experience' versus 'alleged external thing' is not something found in the texts, as far as I'm aware, and I'm not sure what is the point you’re trying to make here. The moment of experience of hardness is just that, different kinds of nama and a rupa, and if awareness/insight arises its object will be one of those namas or the rupa. Is there any purpose in characterizing the moment in terms other than those? Likewise the classification of dhammas into ‘observable’ and ‘unobservable’. All dhammas are potentially experiencable by panna of the appropriate level, otherwise they would not be counted among the dhammas. There is no purpose as far as I can see in classifying dhammas into ‘observable by me’ and ‘not observable by me’. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > Besides, none of the dhammas mentioned in the texts were unobservable > to the Buddha. To rule out the possibility of their existence simply > because they are unobservable *to us* would be something of a conceit > as I see it. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: You are missing what I mean. What we observe is *the content of an experience*, whether it be hardness or space or anything else. Only experiential content is observable, not any alleged "external things". ------------------------------------------------ ... > J: I don't think anyone is suggesting we should *believe in* > unobservables. However, we should not forget that the presently > observable/not observable is largely a function of our present level > of developed understanding (or, to put it another way, our ignorance > and wrong view). ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: But I am not talking about "presently observable." (At the conventional level, the interior of no star of Alpha Centauri is presently observable, but it likely exists and, under proper conditions, could be observed. But at no time is any "thing" independent of awareness an object of awareness, because the only object of awareness is an experiential content. If you and I "touch the same table," the hardness you experience is not the hardness I experience. Though they correspond, one is content of your experience and one is content of mine. Each of us experiences an experiential content when we feel hardness, not an external, independent entity. ... ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It is notobservable "period." When looked for, wherever it might be, it is unseen, and thus there is no basis for countenancing its existence. --------------------------------------------------- Rather, they are saying that as and when dhammas come to be> > known by developed awareness and panna/insight those dhammas are seen > as exhibiting characteristics that are incompatible with their being > a 'self'. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: And is it "presumed" that these dhammas are all that exist? Yes, because they are all that is ever seen. One cannot ultimately *prove* nonexistence of an alleged something. It is existence that requires evidence. -------------------------------------------------- ... > > So the characteristic of 'not-self' is not to be seen by looking for > a self and not finding one (anyone could 'do' that), but rather by > the development of understanding of the true nature of dhammas. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Only because it is only the dhammas that are ever actually observed. ----------------------------------------------------- 29348 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hello Jeffrey, I wonder if you believe people can never have too much of a 'good thing'? Your post is identical to a post entitled "Jhana is Ecstasy" that you made to this list (and many others) on Monday 8 December, 2003, merely with the addition of the patronising remarks to Htoo added to the first paragraph. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27786 As well, it seems there are an excess of unfortunates, today they included Htoo and David from Insightpractice List, who just 'don't understand' {?agree with your understanding?} of ecstasy, gnosis, jhana, if the post to insightpractice group is anything to go on. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/insightpractice/message/13610 Htoo's understanding of English and the Dhamma has always seemed remarkably clear and mature to me, I regard him as someone with much to teach us all. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" <<<>>> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear James, > > > > How nice you redirected to be on the right path! Jhana is just for > > Sammasamadhi as one of Eight Parts of The Path. > > > > Jhana should not be assume as ecstacy. Jhana is Jhana and ecstacy is > > ecstacy. If one of illegal drugs is used,one might be in a state of > > ecstacy but not in Jhana. > > > > Jhana finally should not be interpreted as ecstacy. > > > > May you be able to reach Jhana. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing 29349 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hi Jeffrey Jhana is literally meant as meditation according to PEDs (online electronic version). There is no doubt that in Jhana there is a feeling of pleasure or equanimity. If you equate ecstasy as in the feeling portion of jhana that is agreeable to me, however if you equate the whole of Jhana as ecatasy then we should look at the sutta text whether your definition is in accordance with the suttas, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-035.html Gavi Sutta "The thought occurs to him, 'What if, with the fading of rapture, I... were to enter & remain in the third jhana...' Without jumping at the third jhana, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure, entering & remaining in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it. "The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the fourth jhana...' Without jumping at the fourth jhana, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sticks with that theme, develops it, pursues it, & establishes himself firmly in it.>> K: If you see that in the fourth Jhana, it does not just include ecstasy but it also includes mindfulnss. Hence I dont think you translation of jhana is ecstasy is correct. Ecstasy is part of jhana and not the whole of jhana. k: furthermore, jhana not accompanied by wisdom is not Buddhist practise, during Buddha times, there are already acestics reach jhana levels without panna. Hence Buddhist concept of jhana is not just ecstasy but also includes panna and mindfulness best wishes Ken O 29350 From: nidive Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:44am Subject: Re: The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi Howard, > ... then all conditioned objects of consciousness are > dependent on consciousness, and do not exist independent of > consciousness. In particular, rupas do not exist other than > as objects of consciousness. Mentality-materiality depends on consciousness and consciousness depends on mentality-materiality. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-067.html "Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form are self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that -- without self-making or other-making -- it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that -- without self-making or other-making -- it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?" "Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress. "If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements & the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form." [SN XII.2] Regards, Swee Boon 29351 From: connie Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:02am Subject: Re: Angulimala revisited Hi, Sarah, Ken O, ... I think most of what there is is given in MN86. The commentaries don't add much more. Where was your scary Mongolian Jataka tale from? (Ken O, I don't think this was from the Pali canon). .. c: Nope, not Pali Canon, Ken - a book called the Sutra of the Wise and the Foolish or Ocean of Narratives... "legend telling us that the tales were heard in Khotan by Chinese monks", then on into Tibet and Mongolia... a 1714 Peking xylograph translated by Stanley Frye. Someone once said there are no non-Buddhist teachings; I think it means there are only dhammas when we read it right. > ...the longest scary story still just might > be The Momentary Existence Saga. ... Connie, could you elaborate on your comments here. I think it could be useful. TIA (Azita, Jon explained to me that non-medically this means thx in advance, i.e if I thank now, I don't have to again when you write back to me;-)) Thx also for sharing the steps with Icaro;-) ... c: Ok, Sarah, just that it's all stories... whether they're strung out over aeons of lives, just this one, just today or a single consciousness-originated breath... the stories last, but each little All is just namas and rupas; life is only as long as a single thought moment and even what I call good kamma rests on defilements. We just keep on, like those countless 1000's doing the Angulimala; or I look down in the snow on my way to the post office and I'm walking in the same footsteps I made two days ago. Walking with the neighbour last summer, it was my old tracks in the dust two miles from here. There are stories in my life I'd rather not repeat, however interesting they might be, but the footsteps say I've walked over the same mountain of bones so much I don't even know how deep the ruts are or how much higher it would be if I had all my thumbs. To make it a short story, we never know what those 7 javana dwarves are going to mine, but we wear the necklaces and are distracted by ever more glitter, all of it pauper's gems, while Pinocchio brings such passion to the interpretive dance that no one's watching the doors; robbers waltz in and we're carried away with ourselves by the ring in our nose, forgetting to listen to the wind as we shuffle off to hell. metta, connie 29352 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah, levels of defilements Dear Azita, I am glad you mention this. Don't worry, Jon checks Email every day. See below. op 25-01-2004 02:43 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> We see from these text quotations that there are three levels of >> defilements: >> Defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), coarse > defilements >> of the degree of unwholesome courses of action. >> Defilements one is possessed by and that arise (pariyutthåna > kilesa) are >> medium defilements that disturb the citta. >> Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie > dormant >> in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the four > Paths (at the >> four stages of enlightenment) > > Why are the defilements grouped like this? It is my > understanding that they are all of the akusala cetasikas, or most of > them, so what is the advantage to developing wisdom, to know these > different degrees? N: It is useful to know that there are different levels of these akusala cetasikas. Otherwise we may, for example, think that the following of rules is sufficient and delude ourselves into thinking that when we just observe sila we are doing very well. Then we do not see the danger of latent tendencies which are subtle but powerful. We do not see that these can condition the actual arising of akusala cetasikas with akusala citta (pariyutthaana kilesa) any time. Or someone may think that it is sufficient to develop jhana, since that can subdue defilements temporarily. We read in the Suttas that the Buddha said time and again that just jhana is not enough. Thus, these levels show us all the more the danger of latent tendencies. When these are not eradicated, we shall be troubled by akusala all the time. The lokuttara citta eradicates latent tendencies, in different stages. People may wonder why it is said that sila, taught in the Vinaya, opposes coarse defilements, concentration (read: samadhi), taught in the Suttanta, opposes medium defilements and panna, taught in the Abhidhamma, opposes subtle defilements. This is a tripartite division of sila, samadhi and panna, such as we find also in the suttas and in the Visuddhimagga: the first words, with a sutta quote: Here is the tripartite division, that is a division according to method, to the method of teaching. It does not mean that there has to be first sila, then samadhi, then panna, as we often discussed. Only Buddhas can teach satipatthana, and satipatthana is implied in all three Tipitakas. Sila should never be separated from satipatthana, otherwise it cannot become perfected. In the Suttanta not only jhana is taught. In the Suttas the Buddha taught satipatthana all the time, and he adapted his teaching to the capability of the listeners. When we reflect on the suttas, there is calm, samadhi. The suttas remind us to persevere developing understanding of nama and rupa. By means of the Abhidhamma the Buddha taught ultimate realities, the objects of satipatthana. But we should remember that there is Abhidhamma in the Vinaya and in the Suttanta. We shall discuss all this, Azita. Thanks for the tip. Nina. 29353 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Buddha's disease Hi Eddie, op 25-01-2004 01:30 schreef Eddie Lou op eddielou_us@y...: I think, the website should also have it proof-read > and edited properly as to its correctness. N: What is more, this was published by the Pali text society in Journal 26. The PTS is much respected for the Pali texts they publish and all their translations. E: He can say his mind but should be careful to say more > clearly if it his own opinion or a hearsay. Lest it > can be taken as a true fact that Buddha really > grumbled, senility and so on and so forth. That itself > can be seen as anomalies as we understand what it (in > modern terms, - the model) means to be a > fully-enlightened Buddha. His physical body maybe just > like us, subject to wear and tear but his mind/wisdom > ??? , I do not think so. N: The Buddha developed the perfections for aeons, and all his excellent qualities conditioned the rupas of his body. Sutta: D III, Sutta 30, The marks of the Superman. Thritytwo marks. When we read about these, we may at first sight not understand them. But the meaning of the sutta is this: to show how his excellent qualities were expressed by his bodily characteristics. Nama conditions rupa. We read about his dana, his sila, his compassion in helping others: We read about his serenity, not being angry, and <.. he acquires this Mark of the Superman, to wit, his complexion is like bronze, and his skin is like gold>. Elsewhere in the Suttanta these marks are mentioned. The Commentator Buddhaghosa, in the Co to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta (and he rendered the words of the oldest commentaries he edited) refers with deep respect to these marks, and we read about the Buddha and his son Rahula: When Rahula looked at the Buddha he thought: We also read that sometimes the Buddha hid his aura, he always thought of the welfare of others. E: That complete, all-knowing wisdom of his is the single > crowning attribute (achieved the hard way by almost > countless - more than 100,000 worlds (not 100,000 > lives) - of parami/merits accumulation) that made any > fully-enlightened Buddha totally different from us and > even Pacceka Buddhas. N: The Buddha's qualities were unsurpassable. How could we compare a Fully Enlightened One with an ordinary human being. But the Buddha himself stated that his faculties were declining with old age. Thus he indicated that even a Buddha's bodily appearance is impermanent. But at this moment we still have his teachings. Appreciating your post, Nina. 29354 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking of realities or concepts Hi Howard, good you brought this up. Worth discussing. op 24-01-2004 19:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Perhaps I should explain what I mean by "As soon as we open our mouth, > the distinction evaporates!" What I mean is that as soon as we speak or write > or think, it is all concept-only. For example, the "hardness" we think of is > not the hardness we directly experience. N: this also touches on the question can the subtle rupa be experienced through mind-door. How? Only through insight? H: Thus even the thought of a hardness, > no longer directly references the intended paramattha dhamma - it references a > constructed concept forged by the mind from memories of many actual > hardnesses of varying degrees and sorts. N: I am thinking of the Buddha who pointed to paramattha dhammas all the time. He was speaking about them. He used words, concepts, but, a concept can denote what is real and also what is not real. When it denotes what is real, it can help others to reflect on reality and later on be directly aware of it. This is what counts. It does not matter if we at first only think, because there may be right thinking, correct thinking and this is a foundation for satipatthana. The Buddha reminded people of ultimates when speaking, all the time. Also when we listen or read just now, there may be thinking *about* realities, but in between realities are appearing very naturally. When speaking or listening: hearing, sound, thinking, seeing. When people listened to the Buddha they could be aware of all types of realities appearing during that time and even attain enlightenment there and then. Nina. 29355 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Prompting Beautiful Consciousness-Andrew Dear Azita, I appreciate your explanation, Azita, it is not me. The Buddha said to Rahula, to think first before speaking. It seems like *we* can do that, we can pause and think, but in fact it all depends on conditions what types of citta arise. But the fact that the Buddha said this was in itself a reminder that could be a condition for Rahula to have wise attention instead of unwise attention. And Rahula understood already that this is not to be taken for self. Nina. op 25-01-2004 02:17 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" > wrote: >> Your question - can I prompt BC? (snip) Azita: ... > I guess its all our kilesa that makes us think it is 'us' that > do good things/bad things. I believe that by knowning about > kusala/akusala can be a condition for that 'deliberate endeavour'. > There is endeavour and there is restraint, but its not 'me'. 29356 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates and detachment (was, characteristics) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/25/04 3:32:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard: > I largely agree with that. In fact it is a point I recently made in a > post (to Larry, I think) about meditating. However, I don't think the > process is entirely linear. As one starts to see the tilakkhana in > dhammas, concepts begin to lose their hold. As one starts to see > through concepts, it becomes easier to see the nature of dhammas. > There is sort of a positive feeback loop between the two levels of > developing wisdom. > > J: It's good to find ourselves in agreement! I'm just not sure > about your 'positive feedback loop’ model in this particular > instance. The reason I say that is that although the Buddha spoke > repeatedly about seeing the tilakkhana in dhammas, I'm not sure he > spoke about 'seeing through concepts'. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's true. He didn't use that sort of language. I do think, though, that my meaning when I use it is compatible with the Buddha's teachings. -------------------------------------------------- Happy to be corrected,> > though. > > ------------------------------------------------- > Pannatti do not form part of the 'soil' in> > >which understanding can grow. But with the development of panna > they > >are no longer taken for something that is real. > > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We are likely pretty much in agreement on this, Jon. > > J: Thanks, Howard. The key, as ever, is the development of panna. > There's not a lot else to say;-)) > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29357 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hi, James (and Jeff) - In a message dated 1/25/04 4:08:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Jeff: > > Jeff: Dear James, you do not get ecstasy (jhana) without > concetration). > > James: Jeff, you missed my point. Jhana is NOT defined as Ecstasy!! > If you want just ecstasy, go buy some pills! ;-)) Stop defining > Jhana as ecstasy. Jhana is: vitakka (directed thought), vicara > (evaluation), piti (rapture), sukha (pleasure), and ekaggatarammana > (singleness of preoccupation). You are presently concerning yourself > with only piti and sukha and thinking that is everything. That was > my point. > > Metta, James > ============================= I agree with what you say, James. Moreover, the rapture leaves upon entry to the 2nd jhana, being replaced by great joy, and then even sukkha is replaced by more of a "satisfaction," and then even that is gone leaving only equanimity, which is optimal for investigation of dhammas, and is far from ecstasy. However, there is the possibility of quickly shuttling between jhanas, for example, between the 2nd & 5th, so that one *seems* to experience extraordinary joy simultaneously with infinite space. That "combination," which I've experienced, turns out to be specifically described by Ven Sheng-Yen in his discussion of "silent illumination" meditation in his book "The Footsteps of the Ox." With jhana-shuttling, one may *seem* to experience a mixing of jhana characteristics. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29358 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi, Swee Boon - Nice to hear from you! :-) In a message dated 1/25/04 7:45:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Mentality-materiality depends on consciousness and consciousness > depends on mentality-materiality. > > ========================== Yes, that's right. I agree. The Sheaves of Reeds Sutta is one of my favorites. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29359 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking of realities or concepts Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/25/04 9:38:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > good you brought this up. Worth discussing. > op 24-01-2004 19:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Perhaps I should explain what I mean by "As soon as we open our mouth, > >the distinction evaporates!" What I mean is that as soon as we speak or > write > >or think, it is all concept-only. For example, the "hardness" we think of > is > >not the hardness we directly experience. > N: this also touches on the question can the subtle rupa be experienced > through mind-door. How? Only through insight? > H: Thus even the thought of a hardness, > >no longer directly references the intended paramattha dhamma - it > references a > >constructed concept forged by the mind from memories of many actual > >hardnesses of varying degrees and sorts. > N: I am thinking of the Buddha who pointed to paramattha dhammas all the > time. He was speaking about them. He used words, concepts, but, a concept > can denote what is real and also what is not real. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. But with concepts there is always an indirection. They are the vehicle for thought and communication, but they do not constitute direct seeing. They constitute *pointing*. Thank goodness for the Buddha who knew perfectly where and how to point! -------------------------------------------- > When it denotes what is > real, it can help others to reflect on reality and later on be directly > aware of it. This is what counts. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: No question. There is a real distinction between true and useful speech and misleading speech. -------------------------------------------- It does not matter if we at first only> > think, because there may be right thinking, correct thinking and this is a > foundation for satipatthana. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I have no argument with this. ----------------------------------------- The Buddha reminded people of ultimates when> > speaking, all the time. Also when we listen or read just now, there may be > thinking *about* realities, but in between realities are appearing very > naturally. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. There is useful thinking "about," and there is direct knowing. These are related, but quite different. ------------------------------------------ When speaking or listening: hearing, sound, thinking, seeing.> > When people listened to the Buddha they could be aware of all types of > realities appearing during that time and even attain enlightenment there and > then. ------------------------------------------ Howard: For sure. A mind that is well cultivated may turn towards reality and awakening in a brief moment in response to just the right statement made in just the right way. It is what the Zen folks call a "turning word". ----------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29360 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:37am Subject: Sensing feeling where it arises and where it vanishes ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have been travelling through our Samsara, wheel of life that is life after life endlessly. Some wise men had got through the Samsara and there is no more traces of them here in Samsara, the circle of life that is life after life. There had been many Arahats who had gone and left the Samsara. Those all Arahats can be classified into three groups according to their status of how they were enlightened and their power to share the method. The first group of Arahats are Sammasambuddhas. Samma means right, rightly, righteousness, genuine and Buddhas are those who are self-fully-enlightened. Sammasambuddhas are the most intelligent, the most powerful, the widest wisdom holding Arahats and they hold all the most. These Arahats do not have any teacher for their enlightenment and they are self-enlightened Arahats. They can show the way round to others. They are Sammasambuddhas and simply called The Buddha. Their Nana is called Sammasambodhi. The second group of Arahats are Pacchekabuddhas. They are also self-enlightened and they do not have any teacher for their enlightenment. They are next to Sammasambuddhas in terms of wisdom or Nana. But Pacchekabuddhas do not show the way up to other beings and they just get through the Samsara on their own and each gone. Their wisdom is called Pacchekabodhi. They do not teach other beings. The third group of Arahats are Savakas. Apart from Sammasambuddhas and Pacchekabuddhas all other Arahats are Savaka. Savaka means pupil. They can never be enlightened on their own but with the aid The Buddha or His Disciples. This aid may be direct or indirect and this may be a library-full of books or just a single word or single sentence or single verse or single item of speech. The wisdom of these Arahats is called Savakabodhi. Those who are practising to get through the Samsara can also be designated as Bhikkhu even though they are not monks. The Dhamma practitioner is striving to get through the Samsara. He has been practising for a long time. He has practised contemplation on his own body. Through his body he can access to all senses and he knows all senses at each time they appear at their respective door. Every time he contemplates on his own body he sometimes notices that there is something that arises along with each event. That something is sometimes not conspicuous but at a time it is very obviously displayed. That something is sometimes vividly seen with his mind-eye and sometimes not. He decides to contemplate on that something. It is a kind of feeling. At every moment, there always is a feeling. It is called Vedana. Now the Dhamma practitioner is looking at each feeling and he is contemplating on Vedana. May all beings contemplate on feelings where they arise. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 29361 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:46am Subject: Jaatavidasa Note Dear Mods and Friends, Today is my birthday, anniversary of the most unfortunate (because reborn) and most auspicious (because human) of events for Buddhists. I think that most take this as a once-in-a-lifetime event. In my opinion, understanding that death and rebirth occur at every instant is an indispensible step for beginning to understand the Buddhadhamma. A lifetime is a concept--so this is also an opening into sacca vs paramattha dhamma, so essential to understanding dhamma, Dhamma and abhidhamma. Here's hoping that each will come to understand this in her/his own way and time. Cheers, mike 29362 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:58am Subject: Re: Jaatavidasa Note Great Mike "Today is my birthday," ----------------------------------------------------------------- Cheerio, great Mike!!!! It´s good to hear about you again! I just imagine you were out on Asia, clearing a path on a dense, tropical forest to find and ancient and lost buddhist temple or stupa like the good Allan Quartemain!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- anniversary of the most unfortunate (because reborn) and most auspicious (because human) of events for Buddhists. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I think that´s a good oportunity (no martian pun intended!) to find the words of Buddha and to put it in diary pratice! ------------------------------------------------------------------ I think that most take this as a once-in-a-lifetime event. In my opinion, understanding that death and rebirth occur at every instant is an indispensible step for beginning to understand the Buddhadhamma. A lifetime is a concept--so this is also an opening into sacca vs paramattha dhamma, so essential to understanding dhamma, Dhamma and abhidhamma. > > Here's hoping that each will come to understand this in her/his own way and time. ------------------------------------------------------------------- I will make mine your words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A Happy Birthday to you, Good Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mettaya, Icaro 29363 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jaatavidasa Note Hi, Mike - Happy birthday, Mike! May you be happy and well, and may this be a time of reaffirming right effort. But what is it that is that dies and is reborn at every instant? ;-) Please don't answer with a stock quotation, but just turn your mind to the question, and look with the intention of seeing. I think this is a matter of critical importance. I'm certainly not saying I have "the answer", though, somehow, it seems to be lurking "in the back of my mind", rather like "being on the tip of one's tongue". ;-). With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/25/04 1:47:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Dear Mods and Friends, > > Today is my birthday, anniversary of the most unfortunate (because reborn) > and most auspicious (because human) of events for Buddhists. I think that > most take this as a once-in-a-lifetime event. In my opinion, understanding that > death and rebirth occur at every instant is an indispensible step for > beginning to understand the Buddhadhamma. A lifetime is a concept--so this is also > an opening into sacca vs paramattha dhamma, so essential to understanding > dhamma, Dhamma and abhidhamma. > > Here's hoping that each will come to understand this in her/his own way and > time. > > Cheers, > > mike > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29364 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi Swee Boon and Howard, Swee Boon, I am really glad to see you again. I think your quotes make it very clear how intricate conditions are. And it clarifies what is exactly meant by nama and rupa being dependent on citta. We also find many details in the Visuddhimagga XVII, 218 etc. Citta: rebirth-consciousness and vipakacitta in life, conditions nama and rupa. Which nama? The conascent cetasikas. Which rupa? It conditions rupa by way of conascence only at the moment of birth and after that by way of postnascence, and that goes for all rupas of the body, no matter they are produced by kamma, by citta, by temperature or by nutrition. Nama and rupa condition the six bases: the five sensebases and the sixth: the mind-base which is citta. See also Ven Nyanatiloka dict. this gives many details. And B.B.: The Great Discourse on Causation. I find the subject always difficult, have to do some homework, but that won't hurt. Thus we have to study exactly which nama (citta or cetasika) and which rupa (great elements, sensebases etc.) are conditions in which way and when. By way of conascence, postnascence or prenascence. Nina. op 25-01-2004 13:44 schreef nidive op nidive@y...: Howard wrote: >> ... then all conditioned objects of consciousness are >> dependent on consciousness, and do not exist independent of >> consciousness. In particular, rupas do not exist other than >> as objects of consciousness. Swee Boon quotes: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-067.html > (snip) > It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one > another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition > comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes > name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six > sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes > contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From > feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.(snip) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/kamma.html > > "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & > attention: This is called name. The four great elements & the form > dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & > this form are called name-&-form." > > [SN XII.2] 29365 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, thanks, appreciating, Nina. op 25-01-2004 09:43 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > I'm glad that you appreciated the sutta. Hope you have a nice time > on your trip. Don't worry about a thing. 29366 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:16pm Subject: Re: Jaatavidasa Note Hello Mike,:-) May you have a happy day - you are born (this time) on the same auspicious day as the modern nation of Australia. Here, for most of us, it is a wonderful day of excitement in the present, hope for the future and gratitude for the past. May this be your experience and the experience of your loved ones. :-) For others, those of us who were dispossessed at the coming of the Europeans it is an unfortunate day, Invasion day - filled with resentment, hurt and wondering why. Though the past can't be changed, may there be understanding, reconciliation and healing in the present and future. We are many, but we are One. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Mods and Friends, > > Today is my birthday, anniversary of the most unfortunate (because reborn) and most auspicious (because human) of events for Buddhists. I think that most take this as a once-in-a-lifetime event. In my opinion, understanding that death and rebirth occur at every instant is an indispensible step for beginning to understand the Buddhadhamma. A lifetime is a concept--so this is also an opening into sacca vs paramattha dhamma, so essential to understanding dhamma, Dhamma and abhidhamma. > > Here's hoping that each will come to understand this in her/his own way and time. > > Cheers, > > mike 29367 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jaatavidasa Note Dear Mike, op 25-01-2004 19:46 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Today is my birthday,...In my opinion, understanding that > death and rebirth occur at every instant is an indispensible step for > beginning to understand the Buddhadhamma. A lifetime is a concept--so this is > also an opening into sacca vs paramattha dhamma, so essential to understanding > dhamma, Dhamma and abhidhamma. > > Here's hoping that each will come to understand this in her/his own way and > time. N: All good wishes for a happy and fruitful year with Dhamma. And, as you say, we should not forget momentary birth and death. As you say, you hope that Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, You provided the reference to Pali Canon and went through an analysis of why you believe the Four Noble Truths are presented on both a conventional and ultimate level. While your analysis does show that you characterize the Four Noble Truths as both ultimate and conventional, the passage you provided and your analysis do not indicate in anyway that the Buddha himself characterized the Four Noble Truths as such. The reference itself and your analysis do not support your claim that the Buddha characterize the Four Noble Truths as both ultimate and conventional. I did not make the claim that the Buddha characterized the Four Noble Truths as both ultimate and conventional. The burden of backing up such claim is not mine. Again, the question was: Did the Buddha characterize the Four Noble Truths as ultimate or conventional? The question was not about if you think or believe the Four Noble Truths are ultimate or conventional. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Victor: If the Buddha indeed characterized the Four Noble Truths as > ultimate or as both ultimate and conventional, could anyone find a > reference to the discourses in the Pali Canon indicating that the > Buddha did characterize the Four Noble Truths as such? > > James: I already gave references to the Pali Canon to support what I > said. Please see post: 29321. If you don't agree or don't think > that these are sufficient, I think you should find further references > yourself. > > Metta, James 29369 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi Howard, One flaw in your logic. The formula doesn't say that namarupa _only_ arises as an object of consciousness. If that were the case we would only be alive when life force was an object. Larry -------------------- Howard: "If feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention, and the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements all arise dependent on consciousness and cease with the cessation of consciousness, as this directly says, then all conditioned objects of consciousness are dependent on consciousness, and do not exist independent of consciousness. In particular, rupas do not exist other than as objects of consciousness." 29370 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking of realities or concepts Hi Nina and Howard, I've been contemplating this for a few days and I'm wondering if something is being left out in the progress of insight as outlined in the Visuddhimagga, namely, the investigation of concepts. For example, investigating a whole to see if there is in reality a whole; or investigating a concept such as beauty to see if it actually exists. Why isn't this considered to be an element of insight? Isn't the majority of our attachments to concepts? Larry 29371 From: Akasa Levi Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Love & Other Difficulties: Rilke, Rumi & Buddha On Relationship - Sunday MEDITATION February 8 Love & Other Difficulties: Rilke, Rumi & Buddha On Relationship - Sunday MEDITATION February 8 - Laughing Buddha Sangha ... please MAX your screen The collection of words that follows is literally my 'labor of love' - the world's literature on love is huge, but only some of it maturely intelligent and not naive sentimental sugar. We've tried to offer you the very best. Read some of it now, as the Meditation Retreat will be mostly in silence. Please feel free to use anything you read in this email to send to your friends & loved ones . and enjoy! _____________________________________________________________________________ "Love doesn't make the world go 'round. Love is what makes the ride worthwhile" ~ Adida meditation: simply the power of silence. Some Silent Hours of Again Establishing Stillness & Clarity... Simply being in silence with silent group support. Silence works! The Laughing Buddha Sangha zen men mystic women: vipassana meditation with akasa levi Our February Laughing Buddha Sangha "Awakening Practice" Sunday FEBRUARY 8 ... SAVE the Date - Please RSVP earlier! Be in Silence from 10am til' 3pm ... in Santa Monica and check www.LADharma.org Scroll near bottom-half for more Details... "Love is the difficult realization that something other than oneself is real" ~ Iris Murdoch ________________________________________ " Love exists only in the Friendship. Love is Friendship set on fire." ~ Rilke Love & Other Difficulties Rilke, Rumi & Buddha On Relationship: February 8 A Tint of Rose Color & Insightful Thorns as Our Retreat is Near Valentine's Day Romance? Longing? Passion? Friendship? Marriage? Solitude? Absence? Abandonment? Naivety? Hiding Out? Loneliness? Loss? Grief? Given Up? Resentment? Forgiveness? Uncompromised Creativity & Divine Callings? We're encouraged by Buddha's relaxed, intimate non-attachment practice versus a protective, aloof spiritual indifference or obsessive co-dependency... " Talk not of wasted affection - affection never was wasted. It is impossible to repent of love. The sin of love does not exist." ~ Henry Wadsworth Longfellow _____________________________________ "A spiritual awakening which does not awaken the sleeper to Love, has roused him in vain" Rainer Maria Rilke, (1875-1926) world-renown German existential poet/author "On Love & Other Difficulties" Highly mature, sobering letters and poems on love - show Rilke's profound understanding of men and women and his ardent spirituality. His radical books, were written over ninety years ago in the avant-garde' bohemian Paris of Picasso. Rilke introduces the contradictory concept of solitude as a blessing. He seems to have this way of reaching into your inner soul and grabbing a hold of 'your reality' and making you face it, in a tone of controlled urgency, in a passionate sort of way. Experimental openness to experience, on grasping what is most difficult - and turning what is most alien into that which we can most trust. XXXA __________________________________________________________________________________________________ "The best relationship is the one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other" On Love & Other Difficulties... by Rilke ..deep reading certainly not for lovers of the naive " The point of marital or any relationship is not to create a quick commonality by tearing down all boundaries - on the contrary, a good relationship is one in which each partner anoints the other to be the guardian of their solitude, and in this they show each other the greatest possible trust. This I hold to be the highest task of a bond between two people: that each should stand guard over the solitude of the other. For, since it lies in the nature of indifference or insecurity of the common crowd to recognize no solitude - then love and friendship are specifically there for the purpose of continually providing the opportunity for solitude. And only love and friendship are the true sharings which rhythmically interrupt periods of deep solitary emotion. " ___________________________________ " A merging, a togetherness between two people is an impossibility - and where it seems to exist, nevertheless - yes, it is a narrowing, a hemming-in, a mutual compromised consent, that really does limit one party or both of their fullest freedom and development. But once the realization is accepted that even between the closest people, infinite distance continues to exist - a wonderful living side-by-side can grow up for them - if they succeed in loving the expanse, loving the distance between them - which gives them the possibility of always seeing each other as a whole being before an immense wide sky! " "On Love & Other Difficulties" ~ the above was adapted from Translations and Considerations of Rainier Maria Rilke by John Mood; W.W. Norton, 1975 and The Selected Poetry of Rainer Maria Rilke by Stephen Mitchell & Robert Hass; Vintage, 1989 - both as translated from the German. _____________________________________ " Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart. Try to love the 'Questions' themselves - like locked rooms and like books that are written in a foreign language. Do not right now seek for the Answers. The 'Answers' which cannot now be given to you -because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything - experiencing everything. At present, you need to live the Questions. Perhaps you will then gradually, without even noticing it, live along some distant day into the Answer. " ~ Rilke's "Letters to a Young Poet" (1903-1908) "...a change of heart changes everything " _________________________________ Jelaluddin Rumi (1207-1273) Sufi mystic poet from eastern Persia in what is now Afghanistan Let the lover be disgraceful, crazy, absent-minded. Someone sober will worry about events going badly. Let the lover be. Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. Come out of the circle of time And into the circle of love. _____________________ Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) French paleontologist and philosopher of the avant garde The day will come when, after harnessing the winds, the tides and gravitation - we shall harness for God the energies of Love. And on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. _____________________________________________________________________ In the middle ages, romantic young men and women drew names from a basket to see who their Valentines would be. They would then wear these names on their sleeves for one week. This is said to be the origin of the expression, "wearing your heart on your sleeve." You come to Love not by finding the 'perfect' person, but by seeing an imperfect person perfectly. ~ Sam Keen Do you love me because I'm beautiful, or am I am beautiful because you love me? ~ Oscar Hammerstein On reflection, one of the things I needed to learn was to allow myself to be loved. ~ Isha McKenzie-Mavinga, The Quaker Reader I love people. I love my family, my children - but inside myself is a place where I live all alone and that's where you renew your springs that never dry up. ~ Pearl S. Buck To fall in love is easy, even to remain in it is not difficult - our human loneliness is cause enough. But it is a hard quest worth making to find a 'comrade' through whose steady presence you become steadily the person you desire to be. ~ Anna Louise Strong Love doesn't just sit there like a stone - it has to be made, like bread, remade all the time, made new. ~ Ursula K. LeGuin, "The Lathe of Heaven" The pain of love is the pain of being alive. It is a perpetual wound. ~ Maureen Duffy Love is but the discovery of ourselves in others, and the delight in the recognition ~ Alexander Smith *************************************************************** some DETAILS & CONTACT info for Sunday FEBRUARY 8 meditation: simply the power of silence. The Laughing Buddha Sangha zen men mystic women: vipassana meditation with akasa levi Our February Laughing Buddha Sangha "Awakening Practice" Sunday FEBRUARY 8 ... SAVE the Date - Please RSVP early! We Gather & Settle Down at 9:30am - and Sit in Silence from 10am til' 3pm in 25 minute sitting-periods with plenty of breaks as usual. and some poetry And then we just sit down again & wait - again allowing 'Stillness' to take over. 12713 Dewey Street, CA90066 - is just south of Santa Monica Airport off Walgrove Ave ( 2 blocks north of Rose Ave) just at the edge of Santa Monica & Mar Vista. ______________________________________ You can always check www.LADharma.org under "A Sunday of Silent Awareness" for MORE DETAILS about the day's program, what to bring, very exact driving directions & teacher biography. Please RSVP by phone 310-450-2268 or email AkasaLevi@m... ______________________________________________ If you know someone in your life who just might benefit by our meditation instruction, please put them in touch with us by phone or email... or if you've made an RSVP, and they'd like to come to... check with us & then bring them! ____________________________________________________________ some Housekeeping Notes for NEWCOMER'S and some other folks also... About RSVPs ~ Please, we'd like your RSVP by phone 310-450-2268 or email AkasaLevi@m... as soon as you can, if you're coming! It really helps us plan, as our sweet little space does get limited... but even last minute just might be OK -- but please, call & check with us... NEWCOMERS ~ IF YOUR PLANS DO CHANGE - people usually let us know by phone if they suddenly can't come, even down to the very last minute -- so that we may offer your patch of floor-space to another valuable person & not have to turn them away as we do not keep a waiting list -- so please be kind, CALL IN and let us know before Sunday morning. Being a 'newcomer' anywhere is always a challenge! Our thanks to you in the spirit of loving-kindness... About Donations ~ All of our Laughing Buddha Program Set Up Costs & Rentals are totally supported by the kindness-practice of your voluntary donations. And they get completely used up! There is never any charge for the Dharma Teachings themselves. Akasa's role as 'teacher' is his donation -- his living-income does not depend on your donations. Our overhead does! A donation by you of $25 - $30 is suggested & does feel very reasonable for a 1/2 day workshop. AND. No one is ever turned away for lesser or lack of funds. We Thank You! You can always check www.LADharma.org under "A Sunday of Silent Awareness" for MORE DETAILS about the day's program, what to bring, very exact driving directions & teacher biography. Please RSVP by phone 310-450-2268 or email AkasaLevi@m... _________________________________________________________ some real classic quotes: maybe store these emails, there's a lot of goodies here! There is more hunger for Love and Appreciation in this world than for bread. Loneliness and the feeling of being unwanted is the most terrible. We can do no great things - only small things with great love. ~ Mother Teresa Better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all ~ St. Augustine Love and Compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive. ~ The Dalai Lama Be the change you want to see in the world " ~ Gandhi Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profoundness. Kindness in giving creates love. ~ Lao Tzu To be loved, be lovable. ~ Ovid _________________________ The Laughing Buddha Sangha zen men mystic women meditate The Spiritual Adulthood Dharma Project Santa Monica ~ CA 90405 ~ USA 310-450-2268 AkasaLevi@m... Monthly MEDITATION ~ "The POWER of SILENT AWARENESS" One Sunday Each Month, 10am-3pm ~ details www.LADharma.org 2004 Sunday RETREAT DATES: January 11, February 8, March 7, April 4, May 2, June 6, July 11, August 8 ... and ongoing Weekly MEN's GROUP at The Medicine Men's Lodge - Wed 7:30pm Weekly DHARMA STUDY GROUPS: please phone to inquire or apply Individual COUNSELING & THERAPY: more details, phone Noon-6pm 29372 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/25/04 7:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > One flaw in your logic. The formula doesn't say that namarupa _only_ > arises as an object of consciousness. If that were the case we would > only be alive when life force was an object. > > Larry > -------------------- > Howard: "If feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention, and > the four great elements and the material form derived from the four > great elements all arise dependent on consciousness and cease with the > cessation of consciousness, as this directly says, then all conditioned > objects of consciousness are dependent on consciousness, and do not > exist independent of consciousness. In particular, rupas do not exist > other than as objects of consciousness." > > > > =========================== That namarupa arises with consciousness as sole condition would, indeed, be a flawed assumption were I to assume it, but I did not and do not. I merely said that consciousness is "a" condition (not "the" condition), and a necessary one, for the arising of namarupa. That is, indeed, what the sutta says. There is no flaw in the logic used based on that assumption, as that assumption was never made and never used. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29373 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:12pm Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hello James, and thank-you for your kind reply. While I have gotten your "point" all along it does not seem that my point is sinking into you. As long as one depends on translation of the Tipitaka by translators who have never experienced jhana and the other supramundane phenomena, you will never read a translation of the Tipitaka that will not lead you into ignorance, delusion and doubt. Many blessings to you, Jeff Brooks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Jeff: > > Jeff: Dear James, you do not get ecstasy (jhana) without > concetration). > > James: Jeff, you missed my point. Jhana is NOT defined as Ecstasy!! > If you want just ecstasy, go buy some pills! ;-)) Stop defining > Jhana as ecstasy. Jhana is: vitakka (directed thought), vicara > (evaluation), piti (rapture), sukha (pleasure), and ekaggatarammana > (singleness of preoccupation). You are presently concerning yourself > with only piti and sukha and thinking that is everything. That was > my point. > > Metta, James 29374 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hello Christine, and thank-you for your rather challenging reply. I did not intend any offense to Htoo, but when someone who is not a native speaker of the language that I was born and raised up in and acquired a degree in the study of, attempts to define for me what those words mean, I believe that person is walking on thin ice. Don't you think? Also, when a person who may have given rise to jhana wishes to argue with me how jhana manifests and how to describe it in my native language, again I believe this person is walking on thin ice. I would of course not attempt to either interpret the pitaka in Htoo's native language, nor would I attempt to argue with him how to describe jhana in his native language, whatever that may be. Many kind regards to you and Htoo. Jeff Brooks a--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Jeffrey, > > I wonder if you believe people can never have too much of a 'good > thing'? Your post is identical to a post entitled "Jhana is Ecstasy" > that you made to this list (and many others) on Monday 8 December, > 2003, merely with the addition of the patronising remarks to Htoo > added to the first paragraph. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27786 > As well, it seems there are an excess of unfortunates, today they > included Htoo and David from Insightpractice List, who just 'don't > understand' {?agree with your understanding?} of ecstasy, gnosis, > jhana, if the post to insightpractice group is anything to go on. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/insightpractice/message/13610 > > Htoo's understanding of English and the Dhamma has always seemed > remarkably clear and mature to me, I regard him as someone with much > to teach us all. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > 29375 From: Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Howard: "In particular, rupas do not exist other than as objects of consciousness." Hi Howard, If the above were the case, eye sensitivity couldn't exist except as an object of consciousness. Larry 29376 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi KenH and James Pardon my butting in here but I really do think James is right on this one. James wrote: If there were only dhammas and nibbana, no people, then the > Buddha wouldn't care about the suffering of the world would he? > KenH wrote: That's a good point. Certainly, the Buddha did care, but in what > sense? Not in the sense of `upset and worry.' Not in the sense > that he was an abiding entity that cared about other abiding > entities. Even when people saw and heard the Buddha, there was no > abiding entity, no living being; there were only dhammas -- > (beautiful dhammas such as panna, karuna and metta). Andrew: I hope I am reading this correctly, but IMHO just seeing paramattha dhammas is in the end pointless. After his enlightenment, Buddha was prompted by Brahma Sahampati and "out of compassion for beings", Buddha surveyed the world and decided to teach the Dhamma. Compassion for what? Beings. Not a moment of the conditioned arising of the 5 aggregates of clinging. CMA p 90 tells us that compassion's proximate cause is "seeing helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering". Seeing helplessness in what? Those overwhelmed by suffering. Not a moment of the conditioned arising of the 5 aggregates of clinging. It is absurd to think of feeling compassion for the rising and falling of the waves in the ocean. Similarly, if we look at our plane of existence and all we see is the arising and passing away of paramattha dhammas, what is there to feel compassion for or about? There's no point. It's all just the playing out of conditions with no "actors" (fundamentally real or not) overwhelmed by suffering. No grounds here for the arising of compassion. Fortunately, the Dhamma (including the Abhidhamma) doesn't require us to adopt such an absurd position. For example, the Abhidhamma acknowledges something BEYOND one present moment of namarupa and teaches us that these moments actually occur in patterns of 17. This necessarily introduces the dimension of time. Sorry if I'm misrepresenting you, KenH (and it wouldn't be the first time!) but the conventional/absolute reality distinction is no substitute for "direct knowledge". Absolute realities alone aren't the key to Nibbana. No need to contort ourselves over the semantics of abiding essences and so on. Like all of the Dhamma, the conventional/absolute realities distinction is a useful tool that will become redundant when direct knowledge is attained. It is a raft to be left on the far shore. Conventional reality IS reality and as such, the Buddha taught it. How can you possibly say he didn't? There ARE beings [see definition of "sattavasa"] even if we must remind ourselves intellectually that they are not permanently abiding entities but more like patterned streams of namarupa always in flux. Too much surfing, KenH. Your "absolute reality only" view is going way too far and leaves you just standing and watching the rising and falling of the waves in the ocean. What's the point? Metta Andrew 29377 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 0:17am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, > > You provided the reference to Pali Canon and went through an analysis > of why you believe the Four Noble Truths are presented on both a > conventional and ultimate level. > > While your analysis does show that you characterize the Four Noble > Truths as both ultimate and conventional, the passage you provided and > your analysis do not indicate in anyway that the Buddha himself > characterized the Four Noble Truths as such. The reference itself and > your analysis do not support your claim that the Buddha characterize > the Four Noble Truths as both ultimate and conventional. > > I did not make the claim that the Buddha characterized the Four Noble > Truths as both ultimate and conventional. The burden of backing up > such claim is not mine. > > Again, the question was: Did the Buddha characterize the Four Noble > Truths as ultimate or conventional? > > The question was not about if you think or believe the Four Noble > Truths are ultimate or conventional. > > Peace, > Victor Oh, then I misunderstood your question. I believe you are misusing the word `characterize'*. To characterize something is to simply describe it in a way that leads to certain assumptions or a general picture of that thing/person. You are using `characterize' as meaning to `define'**, they are entirely different. If you had asked, "Did the Buddha define the Four Noble Truths as conventional or ultimate?" I would have answered: neither. The Buddha was a pragmatist and there would be no point to make such a definition. Only us silly worldlings on DSG concern ourselves with such things! ;- )) Metta, James *characterize \Char"ac*ter*ize\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Characterized; p. pr. & vb. n. Characterizing.] [LL. characterizare, Gr. ?: cf. F. charact['e]riser.] 1. To make distinct and recognizable by peculiar marks or traits; to make with distinctive features. **define \De*fine"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Defined; p. pr. & vb. n. Defining.] [OE. definer, usually, to end, to finish, F. d['e]finir to define, L. definire to limit, define; de- + finire to limit, end, finis boundary, limit, end. See Final, Finish.] 1. To fix the bounds of; to bring to a termination; to end. ``To define controversies.'' -- Barrow. 2. To determine or clearly exhibit the boundaries of; to mark the limits of; as, to define the extent of a kingdom or country. Ps. I think that if you want to make a point about something you should just make it, not ask leading questions. Such tactics at discourse characterize you as supercilious ;-)). 29378 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Birthday Mike (and All) Many happy returns of the day, and many thanks for the dhamma words. What a nice gesture, to share some dhamma on your birthday. Anyone else who would like to do the same on their birthday is most welcome. Jon (and Sarah) --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Mods and Friends, > > Today is my birthday, anniversary of the most unfortunate (because > reborn) and most auspicious (because human) of events for > Buddhists. I think that most take this as a once-in-a-lifetime > event. In my opinion, understanding that death and rebirth occur > at every instant is an indispensible step for beginning to > understand the Buddhadhamma. A lifetime is a concept--so this is > also an opening into sacca vs paramattha dhamma, so essential to > understanding dhamma, Dhamma and abhidhamma. > > Here's hoping that each will come to understand this in her/his own > way and time. > > Cheers, > > mike 29379 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates and detachment (was, characteristics) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > J: It's good to find ourselves in agreement! I'm just not sure > > about your 'positive feedback loop’ model in this particular > > instance. The reason I say that is that although the Buddha > spoke > > repeatedly about seeing the tilakkhana in dhammas, I'm not sure > he > > spoke about 'seeing through concepts'. > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > That's true. He didn't use that sort of language. I do > think, though, > that my meaning when I use it is compatible with the Buddha's > teachings. > -------------------------------------------------- It sounds OK to me; but I've learnt to be careful about giving emphasis that is not found in the texts. Experience tells me that what I think is just another way of stating the teachings turns out so often to be off-track. So I simply caution ;-)). Jon 29380 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:31am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Dear Andrew and Ken, Here are some quotes to consider: 'The mental and material (nama and rupa) are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely suffering fashioned like a doll.' Visuddhimagga XVIII32 'For there is suffering but none who suffers' XVI93 'Therefore the wise should see the aggregates (khandhas)as murderers and otherwise' XIV227 As you say Andrew metta and karuna both have the concept of a person as object. All arahants have concepts - and they understand paramattha. I quite like the zen poem James quoted about the mountains and rivers. We need to understand the conceptual world and that of paramattha dhammas. Then life becomes untangled gradually. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hi KenH and James > Pardon my butting in here but I really do think James is right on > this one. > > James wrote: If there were only dhammas and nibbana, no people, then > the > > Buddha wouldn't care about the suffering of the world would he? > > > KenH wrote: That's a good point. Certainly, the Buddha did care, but > in what > > sense? Not in the sense of `upset and worry.' Not in the sense > > that he was an abiding entity that cared about other abiding > > entities. Even when people saw and heard the Buddha, there was no > > abiding entity, no living being; there were only dhammas -- > > (beautiful dhammas such as panna, karuna and metta). > > Andrew: I hope I am reading this correctly, but IMHO just seeing > paramattha dhammas is in the end pointless. After his enlightenment, > Buddha was prompted by Brahma Sahampati and "out of compassion for > beings", Buddha surveyed the world and decided to teach the Dhamma. > Compassion for what? Beings. Not a moment of the conditioned > arising of the 5 aggregates of clinging. CMA p 90 tells us that > compassion's proximate cause is "seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffering". Seeing helplessness in what? Those > overwhelmed by suffering. Not a moment of the conditioned arising of > the 5 aggregates of clinging. > It is absurd to think of feeling compassion for the rising and > 29381 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:38am Subject: I have two questions ... Dear Group, During dinner in a restaurant this evening, my friends discussed, with varying levels of distaste or horror, the following story: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1031412.htm The word "alive" is not a misprint - the T.V. news showed it happening. Apparently, it saves money. I have two questions regarding this news story: 1. Whose is the kamma? The prisoners and soldiers who are required to do it; The officials who ordered it; Or the general population who hasn't protested at SUCH a thing. 2. My friends asked me - how can this method be allowed to happen in any country, but especially in a buddhist country? I had no answer. Do any of you? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 29382 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:33am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism - Long Hello Jeffrey, and all, Thank you for explaining that you meant no offense. Email is a difficult medium, and misunderstandings can happen easily. I apologise for the challenging tone of my last post. The oldest record of the Buddha's teaching is in Pali, not english, or burmese, or thai. So the Dhamma (as preserved in the Tipitaka - the Three baskets) doesn't need 'interpretation'. It needs accurate translation and faithful rendering to keep the meanings of the Teachings pristine, and exactly as the Buddha taught. Perhaps you may feel more comforable with the words of a New Yorker born to a Jewish family in 1944, who lived all his life in Brooklyn, went to a public elementary school, junior high school and college in Brooklyn; received a BA degree in philosophy in 1966 and then went to Claremont Graduate School in California; completed his doctorate (PhD) in 1972; has been a Mahayana monk and is a Theravada Bhikkhu, is well versed in Pali, was the President of the Buddhist Publication Society for many years, has addressed the United Nations and is esteemed as the translator of many important suttas from the Pali as well as the Samyutta Nikaya, parts of the Anguttara Nikaya, and is a joint translator of the Majjhima Nikaya with Bhikkhu Nanamoli. He is Bhikkhu Bodhi. The Majjhima Nikaya Introduction p.38 ff Regarding Insight (vipassanaa) Bhikkhu Bodhi states: "The methods of meditation taught by the Buddha in the Pali Canon fall into two broad systems. One is the development of serenity (samatha), which aims at concentration (samaadhi); the other is the development of insight (vipassanaa) which aims at understanding or wisdom (pa~n~naa). In the Buddha's system of mental training the role of serenity is subordinated to that of insight because the latter is the crucial instrument needed to uproot ithe ignorance at the bottom of samsaaric bondage. **The attainments possible through serenity meditation were known to Indian contemplatives long before the advent of the Buddha. The Buddha himself mastered the two highest stages under his early teachers but found that they only led to higher planes of rebirth, not to genuine enlightenment. (MN 26.15-16)** However, because the unification of mind induced by the practice of concentration contributes to clear understanding, the Buddha incorporated the techniques of serenity meditation and the resulting levels of absorption into his own system, treating them as a foundation and preparation for insight and as a "pleasant abiding here and now".... "Whereas in serenity meditation the meditator attempts to focus upon a single uniform object abstracted from actual experience, in insight meditation the endeavour is made to contemplate, from a position of detached observation the ever-shifting flux of experience itself in order to penetrate through to the essential nature of bodily and mental phenomena. The Buddha teaches that the craving and clinging that hold us in bondage are sustained by a network of "conceivings" (ma~n~nita) - deluded views, conceits, and suppositions that the mind fabricates by an internal process of mental commentary of "proliferation" (papa~nca) and then projects out upon the world, taking them to possess objective validity. The task of insight meditation is to sever our attachments by enabling us to pierce through this net of conceptual projections in order to see things as they really are. To see things as they really are means to see them in terms of the three characteristics - as impermanent, as painful or suffering, and as not self. Since the three characteristics are closely interlinked, any one of them can be made the main portal for entering the domain of insight, but the Buddha's usual approach is to show all three together - impermanence implying suffering and the two in conjunction implying the absence of self. When the noble disciple sees all the factors of being as stamped with these three marks, he no longer identifies with them, no longer appropriates them by taking them to be mine, I or self. Seeing thus, he becomes disenchanted with all formations. When he becomes disenchanted, his lust and attachment fade away and his mind is liberated from the taints. Instructions for the development of insight in the Majjhima Nikaaya, though concise, are many and diverse. The single most important lesson on the practice conducing to insight is the Satipatthaana Sutta, the Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness (MN10; also found in the Diigha Nikaaya with an amplified section on the Four Noble Truths). The sutta sets forth a comprehensive system called satipatthaana designed to train the mind to see with micropscopic precision the true nature of the body, feelings, states of mind, and mental objects. The system is sometimes taken to be the paradigm for the practice of "bare insight" - the direct contemplation of mental and bodily phenomena without a prior foundation of jhaana - and, while several exercises described inthe sutta canalso lead to the jhaanas, the arousing of insight is clearly the intent of the method. Other suttas in the Majjhima Nikaaya describe approaches to developing insight that either elaborate upon the satipatthaana contemplations or reach them from a different starting oint. Thus MN 118 shows how the practice of mindfulness of breathing fulfils all four foundations of mindfulness, not the first alone as shown in MN 10. Several suttas - MN 28, MN 62, MN 140 - present more detailed instructions on the contemplation of the elements. MN 37, MN 74 and MN 140 contain illuminating passages on the contemplation of feeling. In some suttas the Buddha uses the five aggregates as the groundwork for insight contemplation (e.g. MN 22, MN 109); in some, the six sense bases (e.g. MN 137, MN 148, MN 149); in some, the two combined (MN 147). MN112 has sections dealing with insight based on the five aggregates, the six elements, and the six sense bases, and as resulting from the gradual training. MN 52 and MN 64 show that insight can also be aroused with the jhaanas, the immaterial attainments, and the divine abodes as its objects; the disciple enters any of these states and contemplates its constituent factors as subject to the three characteristics." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Christine, and thank-you for your rather challenging reply. I > did not intend any offense to Htoo, but when someone who is not a > native speaker of the language that I was born and raised up in and > acquired a degree in the study of, attempts to define for me what > those words mean, I believe that person is walking on thin ice. Don't > you think? > > Also, when a person who may have given rise to jhana wishes to argue > with me how jhana manifests and how to describe it in my native > language, again I believe this person is walking on thin ice. I would > of course not attempt to either interpret the pitaka in Htoo's native > language, nor would I attempt to argue with him how to describe jhana > in his native language, whatever that may be. > > Many kind regards to you and Htoo. > > Jeff Brooks 29383 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:45am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi James, Mike, everyone, ------------------------- J: > You are misunderstanding what I mean by `real'. I mean it in a conventional sense…but you obviously can't think in conventional terms. ----------------------- I am just as familiar with conventional things (tables and chairs) as you are. But, with difficulty, I can intellectually understand that they are not `real' in the true sense of the word. Leaving aside the Dhamma for a moment: a nuclear physicist would say the only realities are sub-atomic particles appearing and disappearing at incredibly high frequencies. You might say, "Yes, but they create conventional realities!" But do they? If we didn't `think' those things existed, wouldn't there be just sub-atomic particles? Sitting on a chair is different from trying to sit in mid air; but that doesn't mean the chair and the sitter are real. It means that concepts have been created to explain the dhammas that have been experienced. I won't explain further, not because I don't want to, but because that's about as far as my understanding goes. :-) ---------------- J: > The Buddha wasn't a living being? Well, I guess we will just have to disagree on that one. --------------------- Have you read Mike's birthday message? :-) In this present moment; we are born, we live and we die. There is no other reality. There is no conventional reality outside the present moment – conventional reality is a term, a mere designation, for `the process of conceptualising.' -------------------- J: > I'm not sure what `send it up' means. ------------------- Pardon my colloquialism; send up means parody. ----------------------- J: > However, yes I finally figured out what all you K Sujinians were trying to say ------------------------- K Sujinians are trying to learn the Dhamma as found in the Theravada texts, that's all. ---------------------------- J: > (and I now don't think it is an `Abhidhamma Point Of View', it is very unique to the K. Sujinian group). It was somewhat difficult for me to get the big picture because I consider it pretty off the wall. ----------------------------- If you are suggesting there is some sort of cult mentality involved, you are totally wrong. I understand that literally millions of people are grateful to K Sujin for explaining the texts, and only the texts, and for pointing out some inconsistencies between their practices and the practice described in the texts. She doesn't teach her own, personal, insights and she doesn't claim to have high attainments or special powers (not even ESP :-) ). ------------------------------- J: > The Buddha described the Eightfold Path as a path of PRACTICE: "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha. Ken, do you notice that very important word `practice'? Do you know what `practice' means? ------------------- Yes, and I know what you think [Buddhist] practice means. You have explained it in a recent post on meditation. But can you show where those meditative techniques are listed in the Canon? No, because they are not there. And there is a good reason why they are not there. -------------------- >> KH: >At dsg, the idea is to hear the teaching `as found in the ancient Theravada texts.' There is no expectation that we believe it or that we accept it as the genuine teaching of the Buddha – just that we know what those texts are saying. >> > > J: > This is only pariyatti. Memorizing/Knowing texts alone isn't enough. ;-) --------------------- Agreed, and I think that, too, is explained in the texts. :-) The link between pariyatti and patipatti is a fascinating thing. For me, it is more fascinating than any exploit into formal meditation. Kind regards, Ken H PS: Happy birthday, Mike, and happy birth-moment, everyone. 29384 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:51am Subject: Hey Azita! Hello Azita, You will be proud of me! - six days and nights of clothes, books, accessories and toiletries in ONE international size carry-on!!!!!!!! + one handbag. Are you SURE the Customs Officers won't think it strange when they see all the rolled up crushed clothes?; Will the concierge treat me with disdain when I arrive looking like the rest of you Gypsies (i.e. you, Sarah, Jon)? :-):-) Do I give the bell boy half the tip, for half the usual luggage? :-) Are you SURE I can survive with one pair of shoes? :-) Is there a SupportLine to ring when one feels shaky and weak? Perhaps even a mantra? :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 29385 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:52am Subject: Re: Ecstasy and Addiction in Buddhism Hi Jeff, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello James, and thank-you for your kind reply. While I have gotten > your "point" all along it does not seem that my point is sinking into > you. As long as one depends on translation of the Tipitaka by > translators who have never experienced jhana and the other > supramundane phenomena, you will never read a translation of the > Tipitaka that will not lead you into ignorance, delusion and doubt. > > Many blessings to you, > > Jeff Brooks I can see that this dialogue isn't getting very far. Let me quote some passages from Ajahn Lee, a monk who was a master at Jhana meditation: "When people criticize you, saying that you're in a blind state of jhana, it's still better than having no jhana to be in. And if they say that you're like a baby chick that hasn't come out of its egg, that's okay, too. When a baby chick is still in the egg, no hawk can swoop down on it and catch it. When it comes out of the egg is when it becomes prey." "They may say that you're sitting in "stump" concentration, but don't pay them any mind, because stumps can have their uses. Sometimes they grow new branches, with tender leaves you can eat. But if the stump catches fire and burns to a crisp, that's no good at all." "Momentary concentration is like a house roofed with thatch; its posts are made out of softwood. Momentary concentration isn't jhana. Threshold concentration is like a house made out of hardwood with a tile roof. Fixed penetration is like an immovable concrete building. This is where we become "one" in a single preoccupation on the single or direct path (ekayana-magga). It's like sitting alone in a chair or lying alone on a bed, without anyone trying to come and take up our space, or like being alone in a room without anyone else coming in to disturb us. When we're alone in a room, we can be at our ease. We can even take off our clothes if we like. We can behave with good manners or bad, and no one will complain. This is why a mind with jhana as its dwelling can be at its ease. It has a deep well so that it can get plenty of water -- to the point where it can drop directed thought and evaluation, leaving nothing but pleasure: This is where feeling becomes your frame of reference (vedananupassana- satipatthana). The body feels full. All four properties -- earth, water, fire, and wind -- feel full. When the mind feels full in this way, nothing is lacking. That's rapture. You don't want any more of the four properties. When the mind soaks for a long time in this sense of rapture, it's like something you've soaked in water for a long time: The water is bound to permeate it to a point of saturation. This sense of rapture is the second level of jhana. When the sense of rapture begins to move, you don't feel at ease, in the same way as when a boat begins to sway you want to get back on land. So once rapture fills the body, you let go of it, leaving nothing but pleasure and singleness of preoccupation. When the mind has soaked itself in pleasure to a point of saturation, it lets go, leaving an empty sense of equanimity. When the mind is really empty, it feels spacious and light. The more it soaks in equanimity, the more still it gets, giving rise to an inner sense of light. When the light is really intense you arrive at Right Mindfulness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/skillof.html#skills Metta, James 29386 From: Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/26/04 12:05:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "In particular, rupas do not exist other than as objects of > consciousness." > > Hi Howard, > > If the above were the case, eye sensitivity couldn't exist except as an > object of consciousness. > > Larry > ======================== Okay, a good point, a smart observation! Assuming that "eye sensitivity" is a rupa, a proposition that I don't readily accept, and if, indeed, it does *not* arise as arammana (a negativity which *seems* to be the case), this would show that a rupa may arise other than as an object of consciousness, and that would show that I overstated in saying that "rupas do not exist other than as objects of consciousness." What I *should* have stated, and which is all that one can *directly* obtain from the sutta, is that rupas have consciousness as a necessary condition for their arising. (What the form of the dependency involved is isn't stated.) In particular, then, "eye sensitivity," if it is a paramattha dhamma, arises in dependence on consciousness as one condition, and does not arise without consciousness as condition. This would make eye sensitivity, whether it is an actual phenomenon or merely the pa~n~natti of "the physical capacity to see," something that never arises without consciousness as condition, and, thus, never exists independent of consciousness. The sutta itself makes it clear that all namas and all rupas arise in necessary dependence on consciousness. And, as Swee Boon makes clear, and the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta states, namarupa and consciousness are mutually dependent. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29387 From: Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aggregates and detachment (was, characteristics) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/26/04 5:20:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard: > > That's true. He didn't use that sort of language. I do > >think, though, > >that my meaning when I use it is compatible with the Buddha's > >teachings. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > It sounds OK to me; but I've learnt to be careful about giving > emphasis that is not found in the texts. Experience tells me that > what I think is just another way of stating the teachings turns out > so often to be off-track. So I simply caution ;-)). > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I understand. It does make sense to be careful. ------------------------------------------ > > Jon > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phanto m, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 29388 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: Contemplation On Own Body ( 01 )/James Hi Ken, Ken: K Sujinians are trying to learn the Dhamma as found in the Theravada texts, that's all. James: In my opinion that is the first mistake. You should be trying to learn the Dhamma that is found in life, not in some texts (Theravada or otherwise). Start with the First Noble Truth: Life is Dukkha, and work from there. You don't need to know all the texts, just look around and pay attention. What do you see? What do you smell? What do you feel? What do you taste? What do you hear? What do you cognize? These are all the teachers you need. Ken: If you are suggesting there is some sort of cult mentality involved, you are totally wrong. I understand that literally millions of people are grateful to K Sujin for explaining the texts, and only the texts, and for pointing out some inconsistencies between their practices and the practice described in the texts. James: I am not just suggesting, I am stating it straight out. But I am simply expressing my opinion and you don't have to agree, and I could be wrong. And I am not trying to insult anyone. I am just calling it as I see it (as I always do) But it sure does sound like a cult to me: Cult k lt)n .A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. Ken: She doesn't teach her own, personal, insights and she doesn't claim to have high attainments or special powers (not even ESP :-) ). James: If she admits that she doesn't know anything, doesn't have any special insights, why does anyone listen to her? Heck, if she at least had some ESP ability she could maybe give you the winning lottery numbers! ;-)) Anyway, as the Buddha said, "Be a light unto yourselves." Ken: Yes, and I know what you think [Buddhist] practice means. You have explained it in a recent post on meditation. But can you show where those meditative techniques are listed in the Canon? No, because they are not there. And there is a good reason why they are not there. James: Of course meditation is explained, defined, and listed in the Canon. What do you think? Buddhists around the world have been getting it wrong for 2,500 years and then along comes K. Sujin and straightens everything out? That would be pretty far-fetched don't you think? Ken: Agreed, and I think that, too, is explained in the texts. :-) The link between pariyatti and patipatti is a fascinating thing. For me, it is more fascinating than any exploit into formal meditation. James: Yes, very fascinating. You could find out just how fascinating if you actually did it. Metta, James 29389 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: FW: [Pali] Buddhaghosa: To Nina Dear Nina How are you? Are you in Bankok? Thank you for forwarding Rett's reply to your request. Regarding commentary definitions of the term "bandhu", I have the following quotes. 1. Bandhupaadaapaccaati ettha bandhuuti brahmaa adhippeto. Tañhi braahma.naa pitaamahoti voharanti. Paadaanam apaccaa paadaapaccaa, brahmuno pi.t.thipaadato jaataati adhippaayo. Section 263, Amba.t.thasuttava.n.nanaa, Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaayo. 2. Bandhuuti maarassa bandhubhuute maarapakkhike. Paadaapa cceti mahaabrahmuno paadaanam apaccabhuute paadato jaateti adhippaayo. Section 113, Aggaññasuttava.n.nanaa, Paathikavaggo, Diighanikaayo. 3. Bandhana.t.thena bandhu, kassa pana bandhuuti aaha maarassa bandhubhuuteti. Section 113, Aggaññasutta .Tiikaa, Paathikavaggo, Diighanikaayo. As you see, in the quote (1), Buddhaghosa defined the term "bandhu" as a brahmaa. But, in the quote (2), he defined the term "bandhu" as "a relative" which is also correct. In this passage, he seemed to want to indicate the meaning of relative in addition to the meaning of brahmaa. And he did not forget to include the meaning of brahmaa because he explained the expression "Paadaapacce" as the sons born from the feet of the great brahmaa. Thus, we have the swearing word "bandhupaadaapacce" as meaning the sons born from the feet of the great brahmaa who are also the relatives of the Devil (maaraa). In short, the swearing word "bandhupaadaapacce" contains the meanings of double insult by defining the term "bandhu" as relative(s) as well as a brahmaa. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org (Nina forwarded the following:) Dear Suan, How are you? Very kind of you to offer help. This was on the Pali list. Jim answered Rett. Jim mentions that the gloss may come from the old commentaries Buddhaghosa translated, but, I think these must be right. They were rehearsed at the three councils, from the beginning. If you can add something, it will always be helpful. It is possible that some details are not always clear because of the transcribing of manuscripts. These may be only minor details. I added something on Pali list about the interpretation of words, and it appears that Buddhaghose also in this detail was right. Some people miss the subtle points. Thank you, with appreciation, Nina. ---------- Van: "Jim Anderson" Beantwoord: Pali@yahoogroups.com Datum: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:23:07 -0500 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: [Pali] Buddhaghosa Hi Rett, I don't understand why it is glossed that way yet. Elsewhere, Buddhaghosa does recognize that 'bandhu' is an epithet of Brahmaa at Sv I 254, Ps II 418, Ppk II 397. And even for 'paadaapacce' at Sv III 862 he has 'mahaa-brahmuno paadaa . . . For the 'bandhu' gloss that you quote, Dhammapaala has: bandhana.t.thena bandhu, kassa pana bandhuuti aaha: maarassa bandhubhuute ti. (Sv-p.t III 47). Perhaps Buddhaghosa is merely adding a second interpretation. We also have to keep in mind that the gloss is likely not his interpretation, but comes from the old Sinhalese commentary he has translated into Pali. Jim Rett wrote: Nina: When people think that Buddhaghosa is wrong, could you, please, give >concrete examples. Have you heard of such? Or maybe just one concrete >example? Here is an example which I read of in an article yesterday, and which I promised to provide earlier today. In D27 at the end of section four, (PTS Diigha Nikaaya, Vol iii, page 81, line 20 ) the bhikkhus are disparagingly referred to by brahmins as 'bandhupaadaapacce' which means 'offspring of the feet of the kinsman'. Kinsman (bandhu) is an epithet of Brahman, from whose mouth the brahmins are said to originate. This context has already been established, since a few lines earlier the brahmins describe themselves as 'mukhato jaataa brahmajaa'. This is an allusion to the Rig Veda X,19,13 "His mouth was the Braahman...from his two feet the ´Sudra was born". (Macdonell, page 201) Buddhaghosa, in the Sumangalavilaasinii (vol iii, p862) misses that 'Bandhu' is an epithet of Brahman, and instead glosses: bandhuu ti maarassa bandhubhuute maarapakkhike. either "Allies of Maara" in acc plural (-uu), or if singular perhaps locative of sense. 'in the sense: ally of maara'. In any case Buddhaghosa has given the wrong meaning for the word 'Bandhu' at that point in the commentary by missing that it is just an epithet. I don't see why this should in any way detract from Buddhaghosa's deserved reputation, or the reputation of the commentarial tradition of which he was the custodian. It is only if we make the exaggerated claim that he could somehow be entirely free of mistakes (over the course of thousands of pages of exegetical writing) that the occasional miss would count against him. I doubt that he himself would ever have made the claim "my work is entirely without errors". Nina: First we read how brahmans considered themselves. After that we have deprecating words about the recluses. Footborn, and this is used here in a disparaging way, after all, the brahmans are disparaging the samanas. That is why Buddhaghosa adds here: allies of Maara. Also PED at the end: It must be this way when we see the whole context. We coculd easily miss the subtle point. But then the Tiika can help us. And as Jim said, < For the 'bandhu' gloss that > you quote, Dhammapaala has: bandhana.t.thena bandhu, kassa pana > bandhuuti aaha: maarassa bandhubhuute ti. (Sv-p.t III 47).> 29390 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jaatavidasa Note, Sarah. Hi Howard, You have here an excellent remark, not only to Mike but to all of us. I take this one to Bgk. We may give an orthodox answer, but that is not enough. This is a point Ven. Dhammadharo used to remind us of. On the other hand, we want to be consistent with the Tipitaka! Nina. op 25-01-2004 20:12 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > Happy birthday, Mike! May you be happy and well, and may this be a > time of reaffirming right effort. > But what is it that is that dies and is reborn at every instant? ;-) > Please don't answer with a stock quotation, but just turn your mind to the > question, and look with the intention of seeing. I think this is a matter of > critical importance. I'm certainly not saying I have "the answer", though, > somehow, > it seems to be lurking "in the back of my mind", rather like "being on the > tip of one's tongue". ;-). 29391 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking of realities or concepts, Sarah Hi Larry, Thanks for your excellent question touching on the eseence of insight. I take it to Bgk. It is difficult to answer it, my last day. I try to give some thoughts about it, but I am not sure I really answer your question. You render us a service if you keep posting, Jon prints out Email daily, also in Bgk. op 26-01-2004 01:41 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > I've been contemplating this for a few days and I'm wondering if > something is being left out in the progress of insight as outlined in > the Visuddhimagga, namely, the investigation of concepts. For example, > investigating a whole to see if there is in reality a whole; or > investigating a concept such as beauty to see if it actually exists. Why > isn't this considered to be an element of insight? Isn't the majority of > our attachments to concepts? > N: To start with your last Question:< Isn't the majority of > our attachments to concepts?>, we cling to concepts but also to realities such as seeing, colour, visible object, sound. We cling very much to feeling. Only nibbana and the lokuttara cittas that experience nibbana are not objects of clinging. We should also verify in our life whether this is true. Seeing or hearing fall away immediately but when we reflect we can know that we like to see and hear, we like to live and have all these experiences. We do not realize this yet on the level of practice, that is true. As to investigating concepts, yes, this is done anyway when understanding is of the level of pariyatti. When we reflect on birth, old age and death being dukkha, we may think with kusala citta about concepts. Wise people also before the Buddha's time could do this. But the Buddha found the Path leading to the end of dukkha: the eightfold Path, the development of insight or satipatthana, it amounts to the same. Therefore, the Buddha said, after explaining about the dukkha in life: . Thinking about dukkha is different from insight that can directly experience that nama and rupa arise and fall away each moment and are thus dukkha. We may think endlessly about or the other person who suffers from old age, but we should find out for ourselves whether that changes our life. But, without the Buddha's teaching we would never know that there can be development of direct understanding of one object at a time through one doorway and that this leads to detachment. The Buddha taught this in many suttas, for example the sutta about the six worlds, about the world that is crumbling away. As insight develops in stages, it is natural that thinking about concepts also arises time and again. Then it can be known that thinking is a conditioned reality, a nama. If we would only investigate concepts, we would not know that the thinking itself that investigates concepts, is bound to be taken for self, is bound to be object of clinging. There would be no end to clinging. Is this an answer to your question? When we experience a pleasant object we are bound to like it and when we experience an unpleasant object we are bound to dislike it. We read in the ³Kindred Sayings² (IV, Kindred Sayings on SEnse, Fourth Fifty, ch V, § 202, Lustful) that Mahaamoggallaana spoke to the monks about a monk who has unwise attention to the objects impinging on the senses and the mind. Objects overcome a monk, he does not overcome objects. We read about the monk who is free from lust: ³Herein, friends, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, is not attached to objects that charm, nor averse from objects that displease...² The same is said about the objects experienced through the other doorways. We read: ³With mind cognizing a mind-state, he is not attached to mind-states that charm, nor averse from mind-states that displease, but dwells, having established mindfulness of the body and his thought is boundless, so that he realizes in its true nature that emancipation of heart, that emancipation of wisdom, wherein those evil unprofitable states that have arisen come to cease without remainder. This monks, friends, is called Œnot lustful after objects cognizable by the eye... not lust ful after objects cognizable by the mind.¹ Thus dwelling, friends, if Mara come upon him by way of the eye, of the tongue, of the mind... Mara gets no access, gets no opportunity... Moreover, friends, so dwelling a monk conquers objects, objects do not conquer him. He conquers sounds, scents savours, tangibles, mind-states. They do not conquer him. Such a monk, friends, is called Œconqueror of objects, sounds, scents savours, tangibles, mind-states.¹ He is conqueror, not conquered. He conquers those evil, unprofitable states, passion-fraught, inciting to lust, leading to rebirth, states unhappy, whose fruit is pain, rebirth, decay and death. Thus, friends, is one free from lust.² This sutta deals with insight, understanding of one object at a time through one doorway. Even the Dhamma student who is a very beginner could verify for himself whether there is a difference between the moments he is completely taken in by concepts of persons and situations, and the moments there is a beginning of awareness of one object at a time, through one doorway at a time. He can verify whether this is the way eventually leading to detachment. Nina. 29392 From: Eddie Lou Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] I have two questions ... Hi, Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: Christine: During dinner in a restaurant this evening, my > friends discussed, > with varying levels of distaste or horror, the > following story: > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1031412.htm > The word "alive" is not a misprint - the T.V. news > showed it > happening. Apparently, it saves money. > I have two questions regarding this news story: > 1. Whose is the kamma? The prisoners and soldiers > who are required > to do it; The officials who ordered it; Or the > general population > who hasn't protested at SUCH a thing. Eddie: Humbly, my guess is the officials carry some burden but actually global driver(s) whoever they are at that moment for that purpose, maybe the major culprit. (Please see my following posting on globalization issue.) However, your question really brings up what I have always want for 'many years' to be clarified on - How do we differentiate whether the action or volition is just the starting (in other words, - a cause) or actually the result or effect of previous cause (- from recent or previous existence)??? I really hope someone can really enlighten me on this. Thanks in advance. Christine: 2. My friends asked me - how can this method be > allowed to happen in > any country, but especially in a buddhist country? > I had no answer. > Do any of you? Eddie: IMHO is all this comes from 'Globalization of many different things especially - Economies)' making us all in one way or another tied to it in a humongous network - as masters and/or slaves. All this (master & slave status designation) is in a constant shifting / reversing flux (Buddhist impermanence! ??). (Hope my guess is correct here. I am not sure if IMHO stands for 'In My Humble Opinion', which is what I mean here, correct me if I am astray) Increasing global communication & computing capabilities in general are playing in a big way to shrink our big mother earth / civilization to become a small world or village. Those poor businesses in Thailand as a player in global economy, really have to respond to prevent losses. Sometimes I felt I must be foolish enough to think there's got to be better way out and still be in line with Buddha's teaching. Resulting in more inner peace and tranquility. Metta, Eddie Lou > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 29393 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:27am Subject: Pativeda Realization Dear Dhamma Friends, When the Dhammafarer thinks that Dhamma is too complicated and complex he might be reluctant to search for it. It will be better to start simple. It is simple to start. Just start right now. Take a mat and sit on that crosslegged with erect body and placing palms facing upwards the right on the left both putting on crosslegged and thumbs are touching each other. And eyes are closing. The place chosen should be free of strong smell, obvious noice, and with suitable ambient temperature. The meditator has to be clean. Just start paying attention to own nose and nostrils. A breath comes in. The air touches the nostrils. Make a mental note of 'touch..touch..'. The breath goes out. 'Touch..touch..'. It is simple. Meditation is simple. Simple to start. As the meditator is trying to be free from unwholesome actions, he is already free from misconducts ( taking life, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, taking intoxicants ). If his consciousness are stitched together and all consciousness are those of fully aware of the nature then his mind is said to be well concentrated. This awareness should arise all the time from waking up till sleep. With this practice he will start to notice impermanence and then he will develop a special wisdom. Not all Arahats learned theory first and then practical and so on but there are those who never learned before their enlightenment but they did pick up a booster message where appropriate. Once a Bhikkhu was smiled by a very beautiful woman. If he was not ripe enough he might have gone into a disaster. But he picked up the booster message. What he saw was her beautiful pearly white teeth but he contemplated on them as bone and his wisdom was rocketed to upmost. Sunlun Sayadaw ( U Thar Dun when he was a man ) was an illiterate. He could not read any word or any letter. What he learned was just general speaking ( Myanmar ) and how to grow paddy, corn, maize, peas and beans, lentils etc etc. He was just an ordinary man. But he was ripe enough to pick up the booster message from his working field while he was ploughing. He passed through 4 gates and after passing the last gate he changed his life into fully ordained Bhikkhu. He could preach Dhamma, which he had never known before and he could talk on Dhamma, which we would not talk before his enlightenment. He did not learn theory first and then did practical but he effectively picked up the booster message and actually he had been striving since he first noticed 'change' that is Anicca while he was ploughing. The body of Sunlun Sayadaw is still in Myanmar. It was not treated with any chemical but it is natural and the body has never been stale, rotten and never went into decomposition but just dry. The body was near Sunlun villege, near Sunlun creek or stream in Myingyan township of Mandalay Division in Myanmar. In Jataka, Culapanthaka never learned anything except a verse taught by his brother Thera Mahapanthaka. Again he never remembered the full verse. The Live Buddha gave him a piece of cloth and made him rubbing and saying a word. Soon after The Buddha left the monastry, he (Culapanthaka ) developed his wisdom in a matter of minutes. Culapanthaka did not learn theory first and then practical but he picked up the booster message from the cloth which changed from clean to dirty. It is simple to start. What to start? Start Vipassana meditation. Once someone said Vipassana is not of The Buddha's word. Anyway, Vipassana is well known to all Buddhists. Vipassana here may mean.. 1. Vipassana 2. Satipatthana 3. Mahasatipatthana 4. Insight meditation 5. 6 doors watching 6. Real time contemplation 7. Chasing of very present 8. Vipassana Kammatthana 9. Mind watching 10.Dhamma contemplation 11.Moment to moment meditation 12.Moment after moment recognition 13.Moment to moment contemplation 14.Watching every moment 15.Insight Bhavana 16.Wisdom developing meditation 17.Mindfulness cultivation 18.Looking realities 19.Realization practice on realities 20.Special conmtemplation on 6 doors events... and many endless other names are just the same. Internet conveys electronic messages. But what you see now is just colour. But again what you actually see is words. You cannot actually even see words when check that. Instead you hear in your mind loud this message. Word after word gone. If this message is transformed into speech the essence will be the same but you will be using your ear. Whatever will be will be, all these words that I composed are just Pannatti. Writing and speech are just alternative form. Again these Pannatti carries essence of Paramattha Dhamma. When really realize, there will be no more problem with Pannatti and Paramattha Dhamma. Here while you are reading this message, word after word has gone. So does the sense of touch at your nostril which, if you attend, will be recognized. This contemplation of breath has to be aware of all the time except when there is strong sense at other sources. This contemplation has to be made from wakeness to sleep. With time impermance will be recognized and realities will also be realized. If this happen, the meditator will drop Tanha where he usually picks up and then he will be released from binding of Tanha and he will be liberated and free. This freeing has to be associated with development of special wisdom which again will eradicate ignorance totally. May you all be liberated from fetters and defilements. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 29394 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cults, metta, paramatthas. Dear Ken H, James and Andrew, Ken, thanks for this good wish, you got the essence. I followed your dialogue with interest and would like to butt in for a moment, just going to close down my Email lists. I wonder, can I do something about a misunderstanding re A. Sujin? James, it may help if you look in Archives under Sujin. I can add a few things. you and Ken do not know her personally. Right from the beginning she said; it is the Dhamma that matters, not the person who speaks about it. True, her personality does not invite to attachment, to personal ties. She is full of metta, metta with detachment. I remember Ven. Dhammadharo who also listened to her, saying: remember, when you are attached, you lack metta. i found that such a good reminder at that time. Some people have accumulated inclinations for detachment, and she is one of them. I always like to learn from such people. She is far, far away from any cultus. No need to say much about that. In the old days there were hardly any Co translations, teachers would quote without mentioning the sources. People were inclined just to follow their teachers and teachers were approving of this. There is a trend like this but not only in Asia. She did not want to follow teachers, she set up the translation of commentaries and encouraged that. As mentioned before, she will always ask advice from Pali experts and say many times: please correct me if I am wrong. She received a degree at the monk's university, and when Rob K suggested to mention it in her book, she did not like that. She would rather that others speak, not she, always pushing the mike's into our hands. People pay respect to her, why? Because of the Dhamma she helped to explain. It is not respect to a person. The same way as when paying respect to a monk, even to a monk who does not observe the Vinaya so well. You pay respect to the Sangha. James, you hear us often say, A. Sujin says... Can there be attachment here? Yes, imperfect as we are. But different moments. We know that A. Sujin advices us to develop the Path ourselves. Now we visit her, because we appreciate her wise council, this should be recognized as such. But on the other hand I also think of discussions between ourselves, Sarah, Jon and others, this is to the benefit of us all. Andrew came in, speaking about metta, the world of conventional realities and the world of paramattha dhammas. Excellent, there is no contradiction. Metta is towards a person, but at the same time it is the *metta-citta* that counts:a paramattha dhamma. In a natural way you think of a person with metta, but in between there can also be moments of developing satipatthana. This helps so that there is less opportunity to get involved with attachment to an idea of he and me, even conceit. Satipatthana can help metta to be purer. I read with interest that James was using a somewhat strong wording to Sarah, but said at the same time: I give you metta. I found that a very good example. Different moments of citta. With metta-citta to all, Nina. P.S. What a nice idea of Jon that we all share Dhamma on birthdays. James, you are in March, arent't you? op 26-01-2004 12:45 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > PS: Happy birthday, Mike, and happy birth-moment, everyone. 29395 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: cults, metta, paramatthas. Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken H, James and Andrew, > Ken, thanks for this good wish, you got the essence. > I followed your dialogue with interest and would like to butt in for a > moment, just going to close down my Email lists. I wonder, can I do > something about a misunderstanding re A. Sujin? Thank you very much for your explanation. I don't know K. Sujin personally so perhaps I spoke too hastily. Another member contacted me off-list, someone who I respect, and told me as much. If what you have described about K. Sujin is accurate then I don't believe she should be characterized as a cult leader; nor do I think that those who admire her should be characterized as cult followers. This is my mistake and I apologize. As you have seen, sometimes I use strong language but it isn't (usually) with the intent to harm, it is with the intent to help. But even goodness, if not used unskillfully, can cause harm. I will lay this subject aside, reserving further judgment, until I know more facts personally. No need to discuss it further and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. Metta, James Ps. No, my birthday is in May, but I don't like to recognize or acknowledge birthdays. Don't know why, just never have (this rritates my family to no end! ;-)). 29396 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: cults, metta, paramatthas. Hi again Nina, Correction: The sentence: "But even goodness, if not used unskillfully, can cause harm." Should read, "But even goodness, if not used skillfully, can cause harm." Metta, James 29397 From: Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Origin of Namarupa: From the Sammmaditthi Sutta Howard: "The sutta itself makes it clear that all namas and all rupas arise in necessary dependence on consciousness." Hi Howard, Perhaps, but there may be another way of reading it. I think someone could argue that "namarupa" is a particular kind of body/mind combination and doesn't include all nama or all rupa. For example, there are temperature produced rupas that don't depend on consciousness for their arising and I would think in the formless realms there is no interdependence between consciousness and rupa. Larry 29398 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: I have two questions ... Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > During dinner in a restaurant this evening, my friends discussed, > with varying levels of distaste or horror, the following story: > http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1031412.htm > The word "alive" is not a misprint - the T.V. news showed it > happening. Apparently, it saves money. > I have two questions regarding this news story: > 1. Whose is the kamma? The prisoners and soldiers who are required > to do it; The officials who ordered it; Or the general population > who hasn't protested at SUCH a thing. > 2. My friends asked me - how can this method be allowed to happen in > any country, but especially in a buddhist country? I had no answer. > Do any of you? I have been away for too long. I have a new responsibility at the office that means less travel and much more work. The officials who ordered the killing will accumulate the most kamma. The kammic weight will depend on the underlying volition. In this case, it would appear that the intention is not one of cruelty, but rather a sense of responsibility to protect the people. The soldiers and prisoners who executed the acts will also accumulate kamma. The key factor determining the kammic weight will be their individual volition at the time of performing the act. If their mind- state is "I am following orders", the kammic weight will be less than if they are performing the acts with cruelty. The general population does not accumulate any kamma. Of course, the aversion that you and your friends felt over this story is bad kamma for you :-) . On the other hand, if you felt compassion for the soldiers / prisoners / chickens, then this would be good kamma. You and your friends ask how this could be allowed to happen. What alternative would you propose (keeping in mind the relative poverty of central Thailand)? Slaughtering the chickens before burying them would likely condition more bad kamma, wouldn't it? Culling of livestock is a common method used to control the spread of dangerous diseases; consider mad cow disease and the Nipea virus in pigs. Metta, Rob M :-) 29399 From: Date: Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking of realities or concepts, Sarah Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I found nothing to argue with (unfortunately), but here are a few thoughts that were running through my head today. It seems to me the primary way we investigate concepts is to try to find them. I own a car, so I try to find the car, the ownership, and me. Not finding them, I know they don't exist. Hence, there is a little less clinging to these concepts. We investigate realities by noticing their impermanence. I can *seemingly* notice the arising and falling away of liking my car. [We can go into this in more detail when we get to vedana and lobha in Vism.] I can also notice that the liking is one phenomenon and the car, whatever it is, is another. This kind of investigation also results in less clinging, in particular to the reality of liking. The question is, what difference does it make whether something is a reality or a concept? Whether something is unfindable or impermanent, either way it is ungraspable. The only problem I see is that most realities are unfindable, for most of us. This might give someone the idea they are not ultimately real and therefore not subject to the cause and effect of conditionality. Are there other problems here? I think I'm going to have to consider this a little more to sort it out. Larry