31200 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear James, Thank you for the excellent clarification. I was pulled two ways. I wanted more time for myself but also did not want to deprive prisoners of help they needed. Explaining the problem here and receiving suggestions allowed me to see more clearly. Meanwhile, the solution was unfolding. Thank you all. With metta, Doret On 3/11/04 4:20 AM, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Doret, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer > wrote: >> Dear James, >> >> You are absolutely right about not helping others until I have > liberated >> myself as long as you are talking about personally teaching > others. I do not >> teach. > > No, I actually wasn't talking about teaching, I was talking about > spending too much time for the benefit of others at the sake of your > own benefit. I am having some computer problems and I am writing > this away from my printed suttas, but I will relate one story that > is found in a sutta. After the Buddha had announced that he was > going to pass away into Parinibbana in three months time, his Sangha > of monks were very upset. They stayed by his side almost > continually, looked after his needs, and gave him offerings of > flowers and the such. However, there was one monk who didn't stay > by the Buddha's side at all; he stayed by himself, meditating very > earnestly, because he wanted to reach Nibbana before the Buddha > passed away. The other monks brought this monk before the Buddha > (sorry, I can't remember names ;-) and told the Buddha that this > monk was being selfish and didn't care about the Buddha because he > didn't stay with the Buddha during his final days. This monk > explained his reason and the Buddha declared that the monk who was > working earnestly toward his Enlightenment was actually honoring him > more than all of the other monks who were hanging around him > continually and meeting his personal needs. Upon hearing this, > the 'selfish' monk became Enlightened. > > I think the point of this story as it relates to you is apparent. I > was not speaking to your level or skill as a Buddhist, I was > speaking to what is important to do and what is not. > > Metta, James > > > > 31201 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group Hi, LaVerne - In a message dated 3/10/04 4:56:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, lavernelenhart2002@y... writes: > Hi. I am new to your group and I am very interested in getting started. > Is there a particular spot for a beginner?? I have studied Metaphysics for > many years. Are there any particular websites to begin???? Thanks so much, > > Namaste, > > LaVerne > ============================== Welcome! I think the following sites are indispensable: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebidx.htm There are hundreds of other wonderful sites. Another site I would recommend is the following: http://www.beyondthenet.net/ As far as internet sites are concerned, I would recommend beginning with the very first site listed, Access to Insight. There are riches there you could spend years on! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31202 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to Group In a message dated 3/11/04 9:15:55 AM Central Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Welcome! I think the following sites are indispensable: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebidx.htm There are hundreds of other wonderful sites. Another site I would recommend is the following: http://www.beyondthenet.net/ As far as internet sites are concerned, I would recommend beginning with the very first site listed, Access to Insight. There are riches there you could spend years on! And I would add http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma-list/ jack 31203 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence On 3/11/04 5:27 AM, "Ken O" wrote: Dear Ken O, > k: I always > advocate taking of one needs first, for example, if I need to take > care of someone that is sick, then I need to ensure myself healthy, > full of zeal or not if I fall sick, it make matter worse. Yes, balance is crucial. Without sufficient formal practice, spiritual vigor thins to a trickle, leaks out, dries up. > > K: Doret, actually you are doing contemplative life just that you do > not realise it. When one do things for the sake of others, that is > metta, or we called it another way sublime abiding here and now ;-). > Practising dhamma is every moment and not trying to be > holy. Listening to a phone, talking to your subscribers can be act > of practising of dhamma. Dont need to find it elsewhere, it is right > inside you, in front of your door step ;-). Providing balance is there, this IS the spiritual life, isn't it? -- being present in one's work, sitting at the computer, making the bed and washing the dishes, interacting with others. Balance is the key . . . . so easy to say, so difficult (for me) to maintain in the right proportion. > p.s. There is no need to justify to others we are socially engaged > bc that is conceit. Before coming to this list, I had been convinced that Theravadin was opposed to socially engaged Buddhism, that it was a Mayahana invention. It seems I was misadvised. Thank you for that. With metta, Doret 31204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence, 1. Hi Howard, I find it worth while to consider more the points you bring up here. A reminder not to be parrot-like when I state something. That is why I would like to add a few thoughts. op 09-03-2004 14:51 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > Certainly "things" like impermanence, production, and decay are > pa~n~natti! They are conceptually imputed on sequences of directly apprehended > phenomena, and some, like decay, require identification of distinct phenomena > over time. N: It is true, so long as we merely think of impermanence or even the three characteristics, they are objects which are concepts. It is different when there is the direct realization of nama and rupa through insight. H: To be impermanent, for example, is merely to not remain. A phenomenon > appears, and later that phenomenon is not present - and we *say* that the > phenomenon had the feature of impermanence. But the actuality is merely that > it was, > but currently it is not. N: Merely not to remain: I would say: there is more to it. Past works on the present and when we understand better what conditions are the meaning of past or gone will be clearer. The fact that a dhamma has fallen away means that it is past. But what is past was present before, it arose because of different conditions. When those conditions fell away also the conditioned dhamma had to go. I went to Ven. Nyanaponika's Abh studies, which you also like. He (in Ch III) analyses very well the first type of wholesome consciousness in the Dhammasangani. It is amazing how many cetasikas have to come together for that one moment of citta. And then they all fall away together. But we do not realize this, we believe that they stay for a moment, that we have time to manipulate them!. In the Ch about the present, Ven. N. analyses: having been, and points out that the term uppanna (having arisen) I could add: a moment of dosa passes, but it is accumulated and added on to the latent tendency of aversion. This can condition new dosa at any time, and thus more dosa is evermore accumulated. Only lokuttara citta can eradicate latent tendencies. Also kusala is accumulated and conditions more kusala. How could we otherwise develop it? Also the experiences of sense objects that are marked by sa~n~naa, remembrance or perception, are accumulated so that there can be definitions of the meaning of such objects later on. Seeing more the intricacy of conditions helps us o understand the meaning of impermanence. Now impermanence is difficult to realize, it seems a concept. But there is a way to realize directly its meaning: the development of insight. First the difference between nama and rupa has to be realized, and then: their conditioned nature. This is very important. In the suttas we read time and again that there are three general characteristics that can be realized at the moment of enlightenment. These are not concepts. At the moment of enlightenment one is past that stage. We read in the first sutta op the K.S. IV: All three characteristics are often taken together. The development of insight in stages leads to their direct realization. We need not fall over the term characteristics, because when nama and rupa are directly experienced we do not need such words. Then we shall understand what a characteristic is. Now we just repeat the word. When reflecting I came across some helpful posts of Jon I quote now: Jon: end quote. (Next time more about conditions, I will be busy.) Nina. 31205 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Venerable Bhante, I want to express my sympathy to you in this difficult time, also on behalf of my husband. I am very glad you have so much support from the Sangha and friends. I reflect now on life that is only in one moment, one moment of experiencing one object at a time. We often spoke here about the text: I tend to forget, but it is a great consolation in times of trouble. I sincerely hope that you will have many more moments of good health in this life. Human life is so precious, since we have to opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding. May you have a speedy recovery, Nina. op 10-03-2004 23:22 schreef Ajahn Jose op ajahnjose@y...: > My Dear Friends,I would like to thank everybody for the wonderfull support and > best wishes. 31206 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Dear Philip, I just heard on tape (I made) that the four brahmaviharas are supporting condiitons for the perfections and I thought of you. op 10-03-2004 10:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > This afternoon, looking through the Usfeul Posts, I came across > this from Jon. (msg #2088) > < Jon: Once we notice that recognising/identifying a form of > akusala can appear to condition its falling away, it > is very tempting to fall into the trap of adopting > this as a form of 'practice'. (snip) > As I have mentioned before, seeing one's previously > unrecognised akusala can be a welcome thing. Much > more useful than supressing those moments of akusala!> Ph: So just like that, I was able to see through the shortcomings of my > approach..... > > I'll just add that another benefit of the practice I described > above that it helps the other person. .... I expect I'll be continuing on > this double track for awhile. N: There needn't be any dilemma here or a double track. It depends on the moment whatever you do, but it is helpful to see it as conditioned dhammas. One moment you succeed with metta, that is conditioned, not you, and at another moment you fail, that is conditioned, not you. There is no need to plan anything. The Buddha said: develop kusala, avoid akusala, and these words can be the condition to develop more kusala. He also said, purify the mind: develop understanding of dhammas. If we develop the brahmaviharas with right understanding as far as we are able to the kusala is purer. It is good to learn that there is always an underlaying idea of my akusala or my kusala. Hard to detect! That is why it is beneficial to develop understanding of whatever dhamma appears. When panna grows it can detect all such moments. Nina. Nina. 31207 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:12am Subject: Vis. Tiika on space. Vis. Tiika on space. Tiika: Ruupaani paricchindati, saya.m vaa tehi paricchijjati, It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them, ruupaana.m vaa paricchedamatta.m ruupaparicchedo, or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that is delimitation, ta.m lakkha.na.m etissaati ruupaparicchedalakkha.naa. that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter. Aya.m hi aakaasadhaatu ta.m ta.m ruupakalaapa.m paricchindantii viya hoti. This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the groups of material phenomena. Tenaaha ³ruupapariyantappakaasanarasaa²ti. Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter². Atthato pana yasmaa ruupaana.m paricchedamatta.m hutvaa gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³ruupamariyaadapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the confines of matter. Yasmi.m kalaape bhuutaana.m paricchedo, teheva asamphu.t.thabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa. In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its manifestation is the state of being untouched by these. Vijjamaanepi hi kalaapantarabhuutaana.m kalaapantarabhuutehi samphu.t.thabhaave ta.mta.mbhuutavivittataa ruupapariyanto aakaasoti yesa.m so paricchedo, tehi so asamphu.t.thova. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. A~n~nathaa paricchinnataa na siyaa tesa.m bhuutaana.m byaapibhaavaapattito. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. Abyaapitaa hi asamphu.t.thataa. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Tenaaha bhagavaa ³asamphu.t.tha.m catuuhi mahaabhuutehii²ti (dha. sa. 637, Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.² Ka.n.nacchiddamukhavivaraadivasena ca chiddavivarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa vaa. And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Yesa.m ruupaana.m paricchedo, tattheva tesa.m paricchedabhaavena labbhatiiti vutta.m ³paricchinnaruupapada.t.thaanaa²ti. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.² ³Yaaya paricchinnesuu²ti-aadinaa aakaasadhaatuyaa ta.mta.mkalaapaana.m kalaapantarehi asa"nkarakaara.nata.m dasseti. With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²)he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. English: It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them, or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that is delimitation, that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter. This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the groups of material phenomena. Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter². With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the confines of matter. In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its manifestation is the state of being untouched by these. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.² And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.² With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²), he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. ****** Nina. 31208 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:32am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 10 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as eyes are opened, there sees the floor. The floor is sight. It is visual object. It is sight-sense-base. This means that the sight is the base for arising of seeing-consciousness. The sight is colour. The sight is vanna. It is rupa. It is called rupa arammana or visual object. As it is a base for seeing-consciousness it is called rupa-ayatana. The floor is seen because there is eye. The eye is sense receiver. It is eye-sense-base. This means that the eye is the base for arising of seeing-consciousness. The eye is cakkhu. It is called cakkhu vatthu. It is called cakkhu pasada. As it is a base for seeing-consciousness it is called cakkhayatana. There are rupayatana ( the floor ) and cakkhayatana ( the eye ). The light supports. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise seeing-consciousness or cakkhuvinnana citta. There is the floor. There is rupayatana or sight-sense-base. There is the eye. There is cakkhayatana or eye-sense-base. There arises cakkhuvinnana citta or seeing-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31209 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: Computer Problems--Again! ;-)) Dear James: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Well, it seems I have some bad computer kamma! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't fret, pal... it's only bad luck!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31210 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Ken H > > Definitely I will not reinvent the wheel. This three short words is > the "not me, I or myself" is the most powerful psychological tools > that I have know of. It cures all mental pain ;-). I have use it > many time and it cures all the grief successfully and I am deeply > grateful that Buddha taught it. > > Your goodwill method is described as the sublime abiding here and > now. There are many benefits with it. Keep it up. Hi Ken O, Remember, what we are talking about here is something rather petty and unworthy. We are discussing how to survive a difficult situation (like surgery) with attachment and conceit (lobha and mana) rather than with fear and loathing (dosa and ditthi?). In my case, I was fortunate enough to have experienced a kusala moment (or what I thought was a kusala moment) as I walked the final steps to the dentist's rooms. It was quite spontaneous and unplanned – conditioned by accumulated understanding. I was then able to dwell on that pleasant moment – "what a kind and considerate person I am" - - throughout the ordeal. So we are talking, at best, about the lesser of two evils. In your case, you dwelt on some prior realisation of anicca and anatta. Either way, it is nothing to be particularly proud of -- if we wanted to be really serious, it might even be called a misuse of the Buddha's teaching. But we shouldn't be harsh on ourselves; we had good reason to be employing petty techniques of self-deception. A downside of this ability is that we are just as capable of `dwelling on and on' (as Nina calls it) on unpleasant objects as we are on pleasant. So, when I make a silly mistake –when I say something hurtful or pompous for example – I can't get it out of my mind. Such is the fate of the uninstructed worldling :-) Kind regards, Ken H 31211 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Becoming Aware of Abhidhamma Hi Dharmajim, welcome to this list. Some terms translated in the Dhammasangani are obscure. If you have any trouble do ask. The Expositor,the commentary to the Dhsg, is helpful as Sarah said. Here those terms are explained in a way that is more understandable. In the footnotes to the Dhsg there is reference to this Co all the time. Success with your study, Nina. op 11-03-2004 09:27 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Hi Dharmajim, > > Let me join Azita in welcoming you too and saying your intro here was most > inspiring. 31212 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:37am Subject: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta pitaka) to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are commonly understood as the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as distinct practice paths. They are simply the attainments that one arrives at through the single practice regimen of right mindfulness (sama-sati), which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), which are the 7th and 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin. One who has absorption has insight, one who has insight has absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is simply the other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are simply different aspects of the same thing. There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, it is the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce heat, and the other is to produce light. The same is true of absorption (samadhi), It produces both ecstasy (jhana), and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the other. This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice regimen, however there is no clear evidence to support this belief in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of four distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products or fruits of the path. However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are four "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the Buddha that clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The name of the Sutta is the Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say this sutta is simply speaking of the four fruits that are a product of the single practice of mindfulness (sati). I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or fruits, or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). And, I believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions must be the four results of the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path, which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness (sama-sati) is absorption (sama-samadhi). Absorption simply has four characteristics: mindfulness (sati); ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha), or what the Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana);" insight into seeing things as they are (vipassana); and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, or psychic abilities (lokuttara balani). How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice regimen of Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). It is through attainment that we can find out for certain if there are four fruits or four paths. All one need do is practice Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), and one will find out whether there are four fruits to the practice or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these separate fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a consequence of the dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of concentration (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), which leads to absorption (samadhi) which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, mindfulness (sati), ecstasy (jhana), insight (vipassana), and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane abilities (lokuttara balani). Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 Thanissaro Bhikkhu's version is at this URL: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration (samadhi). Which four? There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana)? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana): ecstasy & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}. With the stilling of applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}, he enters & remains in the second absorption (jhana): ecstasy & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)} -- internal assurance. With the fading of ecstasy he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to bliss (piiti). He enters & remains in the third absorption (jhana), of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & anxiety -- he enters & remains in the fourth absorption (jhana): purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani)? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati)? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati). "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates (cognition): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "These are the four developments of concentration. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/files/ Best regards, Jeff Brooks 31213 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:33pm Subject: Message from Andrew Dear Sarah and Nina, I passed on your messages to Andrew and he told me to thank you for thinking of him; he will be back sooner or later. Sad news, however, about Sandra's father. He died this morning – quite a lot sooner than they were expecting. He had gone to hospital for some tests but had a fall while he was there and broke his hip. He had an operation and seemed to recover for a few hours but it was too much for his frail state of health. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew, (Nina & Ken H), > > I'm sure it's a busy and demanding time with your father-in-law and he's > very blessed to have you and Sandra care for him at this time. > > Like Nina, I'd really like to encourage you to skip mails of no interest > and keep up your occasional fine questions and witty challenging of Ken H > 31214 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Message from Andrew Dear Andrew (& Ken H), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > I passed on your messages to Andrew and he told me to thank you for > thinking of him; he will be back sooner or later. Sad news, > however, about Sandra's father. He died this morning – quite a lot > sooner than they were expecting. .... Please pass on our condolences. He was indeed fortunate to have such good loving care in his final years and I hope these acts of kindness will be some consolation to Sandra & Andrew. My Chinese friends refer to the funeral of someone who lives to such a great age as being a 'happy funeral'. For others, so many wonderful posts on 'Death' have been written here on DSG. A very small selection (by the mods) can be found at these links (nos of posts in the archives): Death 381, 669 1903, 2235, 3921, 3930, 3990, 6819, 7986, 10575, 11456, 11462, 11513, 11587, 11612, 11628, 12530, 12993, 13743, 13767, 14253, 14642, 15787, 15942, 19875, 22630, 26550, 27216, 27236, 27267, 29153 May we all be inspired by Andrew and Sandra to take good care of our loved ones while we have the opportunity. Metta, Sarah ===== 31215 From: Sarah Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are Arahants noticeably different? Hi Connie, I meant to add another word or two.. --- connie wrote: > Thanks, Sarah. I had a great day following UP on your suggestions and > eventually found myself being reminded in Nina's Dhamma Issues that not > only the arahats, but aslo the sotapanna's behaviour is beyond my > measure. .... S: Yes and I'd go much further and say that what hasn't been understood can't really be fully appreciated in another at all. This applies not only to stages of insight but also to basic satipatthana or even to the value of sila or dana for example. Lots of examples we could give. ..... The example from ch 8: > > It can be concluded that the sotåpanna does not engage in slandering > which can divide others, because he has eradicated all akusala kamma > that can cause rebirth in an unhappy plane. He has also eradicated > jealousy and stinginess. > However, sometimes the sotåpanna should say what is true for the benefit > of others without there being the unwholesome intention of using speech > which could cause division among others. However, others could > mistakenly take this for speech that causes division because it may seem > to be slandering. Moreover, the sotåpanna can still speak with aversion, > dosa, since he has not eradicated aversion. > ..... S: Good example. .... > More to the point in my daily life, I can't know anyone else's citta and > am easily fooled into taking 'my' akusala for kusala. .... S: ;-) .... > I really like this one, too: > > 2. The "Dispeller of Delusion", Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge, > Decads, 2162, explains about the remaining rebirths of each class of > sotåpannas, <...> ***In the seventh existence, > even if he lives in all negligence, his insight knowledge comes to > ripen.*** Feeling revulsion for even the smallest object, he arrives at > peace." > .... S: Again, impossible to 'measure' from the actions in that lifetime. (Ken O, note: this doesn't mean we are encouraged to live in negligence or that it doesn't matter because sati will arise. Ai-ahhhh ;-)) .... > I think the sotapanna would know they had entered the stream during the > remainer of the lifetime it happened in, but do they carry that > certainty with them into their next lives? .... S: No doubt. Rebirth is usually in a higher realm. .... > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits001.htm > Jâtaka, vol. i., p. 14, l. 20: > > 3.- only one who is capable of enlightenment in the life he makes the > wish > ***** > > Curious. I'd think if the conditions were there, enlightenment would > just happen. So what condition(s) does he 'control' or 'withold'? .... S: These are just conventional terms. The wish and supporting conditions at the time are the decisive conditions for enlightenment not to occur in that lifetime or until the paramis have been perfected. Back to the intricacies of these extremely complex conditions as I see it. Any more helpful quotes? Metta, Sarah ===== 31216 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: >The central point is that the notions of subject > and > objects-of-subjective-knowing only apply to the erroneous experiencing > of us > benighted folks. I believe they are deceptive notions, and that > experience as it > actually is, is free of this duality. .... S: Got it! .... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that translating 'vi~n~nana' as "consciousness" is > inadequate. > I think it is better translated as "subjectivity" in the sense of > experience > polarized towards a seeming knowing subject. > ---------------------------------------------------- .... S: You've explained above that 'subjective knowing' is erroneous so it doesn't make sense to use it. We need to be discussing what is not erroneous. We could refer to certain kinds of vinnana or citta as being accompanied by erroneous view, but this wouldn't apply to vipaka cittas such as seeing, hearing and so on under the vinnana umbrella. If you don't like consciousness, the common translation, let'd just use vinnana or citta. .... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly the middle way. But we may not see what that is in > exactly > the same fashion. > ------------------------------------------------------ .... S: Agreed. That's why we're hear to discuss further:-) .... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I disagree. Not unsatisfactory because impermanent, but > unsatisfactory > because impermanent AND clung to. The cause of dukkha is given in the > 2nd > noble truth, and that cause is tanha. When we crave that things remain > or we > crave that they change to be just as we wish, we suffer. > ------------------------------------------------------ .... S: Even if there is no craving at this moment, the conditioned dhammas are still dukkha. This remains true even for an arahant. No more craving -> no new kamma -> no rebirth. .... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. The Buddha attained full cessation under the bodhi tree. (But > > recall what I mean by vi~n~nana, namarupa, phassa, etc) > ------------------------------------------------- .... S: Final cessation, parinibbana at the end of his life. Perhaps you're referring to nirodha samapatti (dwelling in cessation) or experience of nirodha (nibbana)as experience of full cessation. Still vinnana, however. We may be misunderstanding each other here. .... > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I sure do! (And perhaps it would be best for us to just enjoy > this > commonality of understanding and not push the rest too far. ;-) > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: That was agreement on subjective knowing being an illusion or mirage. Agreement's always nice, but I'd say let's keep other channels open;-) .... > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, there was visual and mental experience, completely > undeluded, > entirely free of the sense of knowing/controlling subject, and entirely > free of > sense of known/controlled objects. > ------------------------------------------------------- .... S:Even for a sotapanna, free of all wrong views inc self-view. However, I don't understand the objects part. Arammana-paccaya (object condition). No experiencing or vinnana without arammana. Of course we both agree that there are no 'controlled objects' - glad you're coming round here, Howard;-);-) .... S:> >dod- * dense or doctrinaire > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. I'm just not being clear. Definitely not clear. > ======================== .... S: This one was very clear (or maybe I wasn't such a dod, LOL). Metta and apologies for always being so slow. Sarah ====== 31217 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Htoo's comments on ''Common Misconceptions of Jhana'' by Jeff Brooks Dear Htoo, I have no problem with anything you wrote in this post (and you know how picky I am;-). You gave many helpful elaborations. Thank you. I'll have to get back on our other thread and other posts later. Out of time now. .... --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Vitakka is not concentration. > Vicara is not concentration. > Absorption is not Samma Samadhi. > Samma Samadhi is not right absorption. > Jhana is not a dirty word. > And many things still left to say > > May all beings have right view or Samma Ditthi and see Dhamma as they > really are. .... In appreciation, Metta, Sarah ===== 31218 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > > Sukin: But zeal towards what? You are saying zeal to disengage from > > certain activities. I don't know what particular Suttas you are > > referring to, but my guess is that the zeal is toward the Dhamma > > itself. What aspect of it and on what level, study, consideration > > or application depends on conditions, no? > > k: there is no level or whatever study, zeal is just a cetasikas > that propel one to study the dhamma. Nothing insidious except though > zeal can be akusala also. S: I wasn't talking about the characteristic of zeal itself, but its object. Depending on other conditions, one of which is the level of panna, zeal can condition any kind of kusala. And of course, with akusala roots, akusala. > > > > Sukin: But you were talking about `belonging to the third kind of > > undertaking'? This is different, no? Recently there was a > > discussion about the Buddha as being the only person able to > `measure' people, I think it applies to each person measuring himself > too, wouldn't you think so? Especially, knowing that we are > puthujanas? And if you are comparing the first type of individual > with what I am professing, then you are wrong. I do not > > say "go and enjoy yourself". > > k: Ai yah Sukin, it is how I characterize myself, I am not > characterizing anyone (what for anyway, I dont own their cittas). It > is how I reflect on myself that I have lots of fault/blemishes and > what I understake will be painful most of the time due to my weak > panna - dont get excited ;-). S: I'm as excited as I was, because it wasn't about `me' or `you', but about `view'. Even though after reading the Sutta you referred to, I came to an understanding that you did not really `identify' with a particular character, but was rather pointing to a particular mode of behavior you chose to adopt, I still think that one should be careful. Remember, Christine just posted a Sutta about the origination of Views. It all starts with self-view. And it is these views which produce the idea of `things to do'. It is good to reflect on one's faults, but this should be with kusala citta. And kusala is with hiri and ottappa, but does this condition `doing something'? Are you going to pick up a dhamma book, to cleanse you soul? ;-) Just kidding, I know this is not what you are saying. > > insight can occur!! So in fact breaking the precept was decisive > > support condition for that deep insight!! What if he had been > > overly concerned about keeping sila, would that have been the > natural decisive support condition? > > k: dont count on such things really Sukin. That is dangerous. I > never bank myself on satipatthana to arise during akusala moments, > that will be very difficult. IF you have it, that good. If not I > think is best to avoid akusala actions if we are conditioned to act. S: I think Ken, you are misunderstanding the point I am making. I am not concerned about having satipatthana at all. The point I make or Sarah makes about satipatthana being capable of arising anywhere, is not about `us', but about `right view'. Plainly put, I think it wrong view to think that some situations are more conducive for satipatthana than others. It would not be wrong view to say that `all is burning', but it would be so, if we say that at the pub it burns more than at the temple. The problem is that we don't have satipatthana and instead get drawn in by the signs and details which condition the three unwholesome roots. There is no less chance of being caught in the signs and details of the temple environment than there is in the department store. There is no less possibility of being caught in the sound of monks chanting than of Deep Purple (whose music I had in the background when I wrote my post yesterday ;-)). Ken, there is no, temple, pub, monks or Rock music to start with. There is only vipaka and our kusala and akusala moments. Anytime, anyplace, there is only nama and rupa. No stories. But we always forget this. ;-) I don't deny that for each of us, there will be favourite spots, where sati and wise reflection may arise more often than others. For me, it is in my car when driving. But do I make it into my `meditation room'? > > Sukin: NO, Ken. A person who understands dhamma enough may indulge > > in sense pleasures from time to time, but it is very unlikely > > that `hell can break lose'. > > K: NO Sukin, that is not what Buddha preach. All is burning - > remember that. If one think one can indugle in sensual pleasure > because one understand dhamma - that is full of conceit ;-). S: Like I said above, what is burning is not out there, but in here. And surely no one is ever taking knowledge of dhamma as excuse for sensual indulgence? Or saying that because of it, one is `well protected'? No, we are very fragile and vulnerable, but what we need to identify is the real enemy, and this we cannot find in the stories themselves, but in the `story writer'. And we should not have a story about the writer either. ;-) > S: And even if it did, it would have been against his better > judgement, and his accumulated panna does not decrease. So anytime > following this, there can be kusala reflectio> and satipatthana. No > problem at all. > > K: You forget the other equation, tendecies also accumulated. And > that is problem. S: It may or may not be. But you are suggesting wearing protective shield because of an idea. In the same way, the precepts are just "ideas", whereas sila is a "reality" when the condition arises. > > Sukin: Seeing the value of precept would be an instance of panna of > > > a certain level, saying,"Who cares about such precepts" is > > foolishness. Did I say otherwise? > > K: So what is the stand, do you think precepts important or not > important. Is it a limit or not a limit. S: The five precepts are perfect guides. It reflects Buddha's great wisdom; he knew what exactly is proper for the layperson. But remember, they are training rules, which means that our attitude towards them must be with wisdom. The Buddha knew that we all have lots of kilesas, so I don't think he expected that any of us would be able to follow it perfectly. Wisdom requires that we must have a very flexible attitude toward these precepts. There is no doubt that akusala kamma will condition akusala vipaka, so we must accept it when we do wrong. However, knowing for example that remorse, restlessness and doubt can arise at anytime because of weak wisdom, we must know when to move on. I force this one to be shorter! :-) Metta, Sukin. 31219 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin > S: I'm as excited as I was, because it wasn't about `me' or `you', > but about `view'. Even though after reading the Sutta you referred > to, I came to an understanding that you did not really `identify' > with a particular character, but was rather pointing to a > particular mode of behavior you chose to adopt, I still think that one should be careful. Remember, Christine just posted a Sutta about the origination of Views. It all starts with self-view. And it is these> views which produce the idea of `things to do'. It is good to > reflect on one's faults, but this should be with kusala citta. And > kusala is with hiri and ottappa, but does this condition `doing > something'? Are you going to pick up a dhamma book, to cleanse you > soul? ;-) Just kidding, I know this is not what you are saying. k: This remind a story quite a few years there was this craze about crystal, certain crystal can induce luck, happines etc. So I asked my friend so the people who retail those crystal must be very rich and happy ;-). Anyway I am not characterizing myself in such a view (for what anyway), I was saying some of the understakings that I have experience can be the 3rd kind (in fact come think about it can be the any kind ;-)). > S: I think Ken, you are misunderstanding the point I am making. I > am not concerned about having satipatthana at all. The point I make or Sarah makes about satipatthana being capable of arising anywhere, > is not about `us', but about `right view'. Plainly put, I think it > wrong view to think that some situations are more conducive for > satipatthana than others. It would not be wrong view to say > that `all is burning', but it would be so, if we say that at the > pub it burns more than at the temple. The problem is that we don't have satipatthana and instead get drawn in by the signs and details > which condition the three unwholesome roots. There is no less chance of being caught in the signs and details of the temple environment than there is in the department store. There is no less possibility of being caught in the sound of monks chanting than of Deep Purple (whose music I had in the background when I wrote my post > yesterday ;-)). k: Yah sure, as I said good luck. Dont bank on doing akusala actions and then satipatthana will *pooh* arise because we know there are anatta. Remember it is always a cycle, akusala condition akusala vice versa. So I say dont just think it is all beyond control and we can do what we think we like. That is an errorenous view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn109.html <> > S: Like I said above, what is burning is not out there, but in > here. And surely no one is ever taking knowledge of dhamma as excuse for sensual indulgence? Or saying that because of it, one is `well protected'? No, we are very fragile and vulnerable, but what we > need to identify is the real enemy, and this we cannot find in the > stories themselves, but in the `story writer'. And we should not > have a story about the writer either. ;-) k: As I said above - good luck > S: It may or may not be. But you are suggesting wearing protective > shield because of an idea. In the same way, the precepts are > just "ideas", whereas sila is a "reality" when the condition > arises. k: Excuses again waiting for conditions and then say hey it is because of conditions, that is why I acted this way. Dont count on it. Because cetana will have acumulated. Ken O 31220 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret You have to excuse me if I am very blunt and to the point. What is formal practise? I dont think you need to go to do something to experience the six senses to practise satipatthana. Except when you are sleeping, there is no escape from the six senses. So is practise is about understanding the nature the six senses as "not me, not I or not myself" or you have to wait a moment to think a about it in a certain time or place Vigor or I prefer zeal is something that is conditioned by right understanding. In other words, the more you consider dhammas (be it reading or listen the dhamma or reflecting while driving), the more zeal will arouse because one have the right undersanding of the nature of unwholesomeness. Another point is that people always thought there should be a formal practise, because only these special time, they consider dhamma deeply - I always wonder if they consider dhamma while they are eating ;-). Dhamma practise is not about later, is always now. I have to admit it can be difficult. But I think the right understanding on what constitute practise and how to consider dhamma will have make this journey easier. The trick about dhamma is the more your consider with the correct starting ground , the easier it gets. Isn't it amazing that even by simply thinking "this not mine, not I, not myself" is already the start of practise. Dhamma practise make life easier and not the other way round. If it is the other way round, then you have to ponder deeply what is really dhamma. In the meantime, you are in safe hands (though not everyone here agreed with me ;-)). Ken O 31221 From: Date: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - Just a couple additional comments, Sarah. In a message dated 3/12/04 3:02:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >The central point is that the notions of subject > >and > >objects-of-subjective-knowing only apply to the erroneous experiencing > >of us > >benighted folks. I believe they are deceptive notions, and that > >experience as it > >actually is, is free of this duality. > .... > S: Got it! > .... > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I think that translating 'vi~n~nana' as "consciousness" is > >inadequate. > >I think it is better translated as "subjectivity" in the sense of > >experience > >polarized towards a seeming knowing subject. > >---------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: You've explained above that 'subjective knowing' is erroneous so it > doesn't make sense to use it. We need to be discussing what is not > erroneous. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree, Sarah. Avijja is erroneous, but it needs to be seen for what it is, discussed, and studied, because we are immersed in it. The sense of "I" and the sense of "mine" are erroneous but need to be discussed. The propensity to I-making leads to the vi~n~nana-namarupa vortex that lies at the core of the dependent origination of dukkha in the non-arahant, and the unraveling of which leads to liberation. Because of ignorance and ignorance-corrupted fabricating activities, experience (citta) is defiled and seemingly split at every moment into a knowing subject facing its opposite number, the object of that (nonexistent) knowing subject. There is no subject without object, and no object without subject. This is the usual mode of experience even of non-arahant ariyans. Without seeing the nature of our deluded state, we are like prisoners who think our prison is a luxury resort. Without the delusive subject-object split, there is just experiential content of sights, sounds, tastes, odors, body sensings, and mental experiences - no subject facing these, and these not things facing a knowing subject. The subject versus object split is what seems to be reality to non-arahants. It constitutes our cell door, and it is important for us to carefully examine this door to see what it is made of, to see how solid or flimsy it is, and to see whether it is really locked. ---------------------------------------------------------- We could refer to certain kinds of vinnana or citta as being> > accompanied by erroneous view, but this wouldn't apply to vipaka cittas > such as seeing, hearing and so on under the vinnana umbrella. If you don't > like consciousness, the common translation, let'd just use vinnana or > citta. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I maintain that the vi~n~nana of paticcasamupada is not just citta. [I am using 'citta' here as meaning "experience" or "experiential state" - the presence of experiential content. And, speaking neutrally, arammana is not an object of knowing in the sense of something separate from and apprehended by a knowing subject, but is merely the current content of experience.] I see vi~n~nana as experience infected by subjectivity. Likewise for namarupa. In many places, namarupa means "individuality", in some places it refers to the conventional person (the sentient body), most neutrally it means mentality-materiality experiential content; but in paticcasamupada it refers to the objectivity counterpart to the vi~n~nana subjectivity. In viewing it this way, the dependent origination scheme, both in the dukkha-creation direction, and in the dukkha- cessation direction, makes clearer sense to me. I find this way of understanding the dependent origination/cessation aspect of the Dhamma enormously useful to me. It enables me to understand what is otherwise not only complex and profound, but extremely hard to make sense of. This perspective may well not ring true for you. That's fine. Whatever helps, helps - for each of us. -------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >----------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Certainly the middle way. But we may not see what that is in > >exactly > >the same fashion. > >------------------------------------------------------ > .... > S: Agreed. That's why we're hear to discuss further:-) > .... > >------------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > I disagree. Not unsatisfactory because impermanent, but > >unsatisfactory > >because impermanent AND clung to. The cause of dukkha is given in the > >2nd > >noble truth, and that cause is tanha. When we crave that things remain > >or we > >crave that they change to be just as we wish, we suffer. > >------------------------------------------------------ > .... > S: Even if there is no craving at this moment, the conditioned dhammas are > still dukkha. This remains true even for an arahant. No more craving -> no > new kamma -> no rebirth. > .... > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. The Buddha attained full cessation under the bodhi tree. (But > > > >recall what I mean by vi~n~nana, namarupa, phassa, etc) > >------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: Final cessation, parinibbana at the end of his life. Perhaps you're > referring to nirodha samapatti (dwelling in cessation) or experience of > nirodha (nibbana)as experience of full cessation. Still vinnana, however. > We may be misunderstanding each other here. > .... > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I sure do! (And perhaps it would be best for us to just enjoy > >this > >commonality of understanding and not push the rest too far. ;-) > >--------------------------------------------------------- > ... > S: That was agreement on subjective knowing being an illusion or mirage. > Agreement's always nice, but I'd say let's keep other channels open;-) > .... > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, there was visual and mental experience, completely > >undeluded, > >entirely free of the sense of knowing/controlling subject, and entirely > >free of > >sense of known/controlled objects. > >------------------------------------------------------- > .... > S:Even for a sotapanna, free of all wrong views inc self-view. > However, I don't understand the objects part. Arammana-paccaya (object > condition). No experiencing or vinnana without arammana. Of course we both > agree that there are no 'controlled objects' - glad you're coming round > here, Howard;-);-) > .... > S:> >dod- * dense or doctrinaire > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. I'm just not being clear. Definitely not clear. > >======================== > .... > S: This one was very clear (or maybe I wasn't such a dod, LOL). > > Metta and apologies for always being so slow. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You're anything but slow, Sarah! There were just two things going on: 1) I wasn't being sufficiently clear, and 2) You weren't getting me, because our perspectives are rather different (or, more bluntly, because we have some fundamental disagreements). =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31222 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello Ken O, and all. Ken O wrote: > Vigor or I prefer zeal is something that is conditioned by right > understanding. In other words, the more you consider dhammas (be it > reading or listen the dhamma or reflecting while driving), the more > zeal will arouse because one have the right undersanding of the > nature of unwholesomeness. Another point is that people always > thought there should be a formal practise, because only these special > time, they consider dhamma deeply - I always wonder if they consider > dhamma while they are eating ;-). Dhamma practise is not about > later, is always now. > Ken, I just want to say how much I've enjoyed reading your posts on understanding realities and the Abhidhamma. (Many of these in the Useful Posts) Your zeal is contagious. I feel very fortunate to be able to practice under your influence. :) Metta, Phil 31223 From: Philip Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:22am Subject: Spinning out Pannati Hello all I went for my usual walk in the park this morning. I'm in the process of writing some essays about what goes on in this park, so it is very hard not to get lost in conceptual thought as I walk. But walking is not the time for writing. Walking is the time for mindfulness. Anyways, I've been struggling - in an enjoyable way- with getting lost in pannati more than ever recently, or perhaps thanks to this group am just becoming more aware of the difference between concepts and realities. This evening, came across this post (#2906) that encouraged me: "But more importantly, as far as the development of satipatthana goes, need we be concerned about this difference anyway? Even at the moments we are spinning out?Ea lot of pannati there are still realities appearing that can be the object of satipatthana. There is, for example, the actual thinking (that has as its object the pannati), as well as the seeing and other sense-door experiences occurring at (more or less) the same time. Perhaps we are not as clear about this as we should be. That is why it is useful to learn more about the theory of satipatthana and to consider how the theoretical understanding can be applied to the present moment. Whether we have a sitting practice or not, we will to continue to spin out lots of pannati. If we think of the pannati as an obstacle to progress, we are going to find the development of awareness very difficult indeed." (Jon) I will surely continue to spin out pannati, but will now be able to see where it can play a role in my beginner's satipatthana practice. Thank you, as always, Venerable Useful Posts. Metta, Phil 31224 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Greetings, Ken O, I speak only from personal experience. If I don't get my daily injection of quiet meditation time, either walking or sitting, I might not notice the first day or two but soon some vital part is missing. I get disconnected. I still feel that my body is just a robot as I go about my work, but inner peace and tranquility is absent. It's as though meditation time invites a Presence that stays with me the rest of the day. Without meditation time, that Presence gradually fades. I miss it. I know the difference. Doret On 3/12/04 3:39 AM, "Ken O" wrote: > Hi Doret > > You have to excuse me if I am very blunt and to the point. > > What is formal practise? I dont think you need to go to do > something to experience the six senses to practise satipatthana. > Except when you are sleeping, there is no escape from the six senses. > So is practise is about understanding the nature the six senses as > "not me, not I or not myself" or you have to wait a moment to think a > about it in a certain time or place > > Vigor or I prefer zeal is something that is conditioned by right > understanding. In other words, the more you consider dhammas (be it > reading or listen the dhamma or reflecting while driving), the more > zeal will arouse because one have the right undersanding of the > nature of unwholesomeness. Another point is that people always > thought there should be a formal practise, because only these special > time, they consider dhamma deeply - I always wonder if they consider > dhamma while they are eating ;-). Dhamma practise is not about > later, is always now. > > I have to admit it can be difficult. But I think the right > understanding on what constitute practise and how to consider dhamma > will have make this journey easier. The trick about dhamma is the > more your consider with the correct starting ground , the easier it > gets. Isn't it amazing that even by simply thinking "this not mine, > not I, not myself" is already the start of practise. Dhamma practise > make life easier and not the other way round. If it is the other way > round, then you have to ponder deeply what is really dhamma. In the > meantime, you are in safe hands (though not everyone here agreed with > me ;-)). > > > Ken O 31225 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Jeff, How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) Pansadhovaka Sutta * The Dirt-washer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Regards, Swee Boon 31226 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi,Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/12/04 8:53:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Jeff, > > How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in > it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. > > > Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) > Pansadhovaka Sutta * > The Dirt-washer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ========================= I'm amazed. Just because the word 'jhana' doesn't occur, you think this doesn't pertain to jhanas. It *obviously* pertains to the 4th jhana. Multiple other suttas make it crystal clear that that is what is being discussed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31227 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Howard, How do you know that it pertains to the 4th jhana, if you don't mind my stupidity? Regards, Swee Boon 31228 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: Spinning out Pannati dear Philofillet > > I went for my usual walk in the park this morning. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Such technique of meditation were the mark of one great Philosopher: Aristotle. His school or Lycée were called "Peripathos"due the fact that his lectures and solitaire meditations were performanced at walking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Anyways, I've been struggling - in an enjoyable way- > with getting lost in pannati more than ever recently, or perhaps > thanks to this group am just becoming more aware of the difference > between concepts and realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- That's a "must" for all Nina van Gorkon's fans!!! And it shows that theravadin Buddism has some fundamental and deep remarks on Episthemology and many of Bertrand Russel's favourite themes of discussion! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > That is > why it is useful to learn more about the theory of > satipatthana and to consider how the theoretical > understanding can be applied to the present moment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It's Easy to talk but a very hard task to put on practice such Satipatthana issues! I do prefer to consider this as a feature only well performed on by Bhikkhus themselves! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you, as always, Venerable Useful Posts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I feel honoured!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31229 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret Sad to say that is the danger of meditation without right understanding (though as I said before, a few here disagreed with me), it can be addictive (lobha). I suggest you stop your meditation completely because you seem to be longing for a certain kind of experience (but if others tell you not to stop - it is up to you to choose). When you feel you are robot, honestly speaking that shows that dhamma is not in your living moment. When you stand up, you feel the floor is very hard, at that moment if you understand that due to body sense and tangible (earth - hardness), body consciouness arise and that experience the hardness. And if you reflect further, these moments come in a fix order without anyone (or self) directing it, it arise by conditions. And if you reflect further, you realise that why Buddha say "this is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself". All the six sense, like you are looking, hearing, smelling etc are doors to practise. If you reflect this here and now, you will have a sense of calm that even if you lose all your property right now, you will be calm. People can shout at you, cursing you with many unkind words, you still be calm. Because you know, the world is empty of a self or anything pertaining to a self. That is what I mean by calm and not otherwise. Only when you have this understanding, if you go to practise meditation, it will become beneficial, no longer a burden. Let me share with you my method for your reference I memorise certain suttas by hard and there are benefits in it. I love memorise text because they sounds like poems to me, it inspire me. Or whenever I feel that lobha or dosa is too strong and I cant focus, then this replay kicks in. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059a.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-085.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-028a.html It only take a few hours to remember them because they are repetiive, just remember the juicy part ;-). I also urge you to read Abdhidhamma text - why - because, dhamma is explain very clearly and in detail in Abdhidhamma. When one learn clearly, confidence arose. When one learn Abdhidhamma, the understand of not-self (as expounded by sutta) will be greatly enhance. I benefit immersely from Abhidhamma - nothing beats it, it make the sutta text so clear. Go to Zolag http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Abdhidhamma in Daily Life or Survey of Paramattha Dhammas as intro Cetasikas - very important because it describe the three aggreagates clearly - the feelings, perceptions and mental fabrications aggregates. Rupa - very important because it is about the material aggregates. If you do not wish to know other details just understand the four great elements and the sense rupas Third suggestion - keep reading posts from here, because they are daily reminders of dhamma. At times you get inspire. If you like joy - read Icaro posts. If you like serious no nonsense dhamma, read Nina's. If you like occassional teasers, look for Sarah. If you like people to give you a hard and blunt talk - thats me ;-). Last suggestion - there is no overnight Buddha. It is a very gradual path. My personal experience, sometimes it can be a painful or fustrating undertaking. Sometimes we fall down and lost touch, dont give up, follow it and one day you will reach there. I have never find any medicine that cure all my grief than the one Buddha teaches. Many of us here, take a while to reach there and even then we are still learning, still infants in Buddhism. Ken O 31230 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:57am Subject: Yuganaddha Sutta Hi All, I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of arahantship. (1) insight preceded by tranquility - this refers to one who had developed the mundane jhanas and used those jhanas as the basis of contemplation of insight (2) tranquility preceded by insight - this refers to one who had not developed the mundane jhanas but proceded straight into the contemplation of insight; the tranquility obtained is that of supramundane jhana. (3) tranquility in tandem with insight - this refers to one who had developed the mundane jhanas but did not use those jhanas as the basis of contemplation of insight (4) unclear Regards Swee Boon http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." 31231 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/12/04 9:28:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > How do you know that it pertains to the 4th jhana, if you don't mind > my stupidity? > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ============================ You are, obviously to me and everyone else here, the very opposite of stupid. I simply found the material in the sutta to be clearly indicative of the 4th jhana. For example, there is the following from this sutta: _____________________________ But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. "And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he hears -- by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human -- both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes and details. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, he sees -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human -- he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening. "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." ------------------------------------------------------------ Now compare the foregoing with the following from the Dvedhavitakka Sutta, Majjhima Nikaya 19: ___________________________________ With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings -- who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech & mind, who reviled the Noble Ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings -- who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the Noble Ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views -- with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus -- by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human -- I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. "This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31232 From: sukinder Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, First of all I would like to make a correction. With reference to your previous post where you said: > K: You forget the other equation, tendecies also accumulated. And > that is problem. And I answered: S: It may or may not be. But you are suggesting wearing protective shield because of an idea. In the same way, the precepts are just "ideas", whereas sila is a "reality" when the condition arises. Sukin: I had read the above as referring to akusala as in akusala kammapattha instead of 'tendencies'. Perhaps it was because we were talking about sila and sila is about akusala kammapattha. Yes, I agree that tendencies accumulate, and it does every moment, no matter what we do, be it kusala or akusala. Even something as mild as digging one's nose, or turning one's head to enjoy a different view, accumulates. And perhaps Ken, this is what inspired you to write about this in the first place? I see it as a very powerful reminder. However, just as I was reminded about digging my nose with perhaps a glimpse of the akusala citta and I stopped doing it; it is not about a 'situation'. Even though it was still on the level of 'thinking', it wasn't about sila either. Besides, I could have continued with the digging, only this time not mindlessly, but with a clear objective, i.e. to clean my nose. ;-) But then there is no guarantee that there will be clear comprehension and that akusala will not be conditioned at any time. But I will not make a rule about 'not to dig my nose'. Same applies to watching the movies or reading the papers. I could have sati before, in the middle of or towards the end of the activity. But I will not make any rules about it! Why? Because it is encouraging of self-view. Now I remember that you were indeed initially inspired by reflection on 'inherent tendencies'. I think they are very powerful reminders. But why not leave them at that, as "reminders". Reminders are effective only when they are recalled at the appropriate moment. You could be having post-its all over your house with reminders written on them, but are they effective compared to when something is recalled with wisdom? Do you see even this as an excuse? I think I understand your objection. I recall that on a few occasions in the past, I too read similar suggestions by others almost like as if that person was justifying himself. But now I understand differently. I remember that when I first met Sarah and Jon and I made a comment about actors as being in a 'wrong' profession, suggesting that it was impossible to develop understanding while working as an actor. I remember Jon shaking his head in disagreement (we didn't discuss it). Now I understand that I was wrong to think that way. I was thinking in terms of 'people' and 'situations' and this distorts the perception. Anyone, everywhere are just namas and ruaps. If the actor has conflict, he has conflict, but this can be with understanding or not. If he is pressured to lie, drink etc., he can leave. If not, then there is no reason to, as long as he is sincere about the development of satipatthana. Sometimes there may be forgetfulness, but this could happen in any situation, so the problem is not in the job. Likewise, someone may by accumulated habit, sit in front of the TV. And if by conditions, he is reminded about 'tendencies', then he may stop. But then again maybe he is not reminded or the recall may not be with any panna associated, so he just continues. Is he making excuses, or are there simply not the right conditions for restraint? But what if he did have deep insight while indulging himself? He may not have self view all along at all. On the other hand, someone might be very strict about sila, but self-view may cause him not to have any insight. Of course insight can arise at any time, even to know wrong view. You said in this post: k: Dont bank on doing akusala actions and then satipatthana will *pooh* arise because we know there are anatta. Remember it is always a cycle, akusala condition akusala vice versa. So I say dont just think it is all beyond control and we can do what we think we like. That is an errorenous view. Sukin: The main condition for satipatthana is Right View, and Wrong View is its only hindrance. I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. Ken, we might have to agree to disagree, because I think we should give this a break at least. But I do look forward to your response and explanation. I value them. And I would rather be corrected and change my outlook, than to be wrong and think that I am right. Feeling, very drowsy, must go to sleep now. Metta, Sukin. 31233 From: nidive Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind and gentle post. But I have a question: Have you ever considered that it might be possible to obtain the abhinnas (recollecting past lives, etc) without the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana? And that the concentration described in Pansadhovaka Sutta might not be the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana or even the 1st jhana? "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. This description doesn't fit well for someone who is striving to attain the jhanas, don't you agree? I do not think a person who has attained the jhanas would also have wiped out of existence thoughts of conceit. This is definitely a very un-jhanic passage to me. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I think the key phrase here is "concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability". Could there be another method to achieve this state besides the 4th jhana? Well, I think so. Regards, Swee Boon 31234 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Dear Sukin: > Feeling, very drowsy, must go to sleep now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ohhh!!!! So you will let go astray such great chance for an extreme practice of mindfulness!!!! O tempora! O mores! This Jambudipa is empty!!! Where could I find out a real marathonical adept of satipatthana ??? Mettaya, Ícaro 31235 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/12/04 11:33:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for your kind and gentle post. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for receiving it so. :-) --------------------------------------------- > > But I have a question: Have you ever considered that it might be > possible to obtain the abhinnas (recollecting past lives, etc) without > the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that might be possible. It's just that this formulation is very close to the oft repeated stock formulation of what leads to both higher powers and liberation, and I haven't seen references elsewhere to the abhinnas being attained except from the base of the 4th jhana. But, sure, I can't conclude that to be impossible. ------------------------------------------------- > > And that the concentration described in Pansadhovaka Sutta might not > be the degree of concentration of the 4th jhana or even the 1st jhana? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I find that unlikely, but possible. -------------------------------------------------- > > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on > heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, &mind. These the monk -- > aware &able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of > existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate > impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, &harmfulness. These he > abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of > them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, > thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be > despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. > > "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His > concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained > serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful > restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, grows unified &concentrated. His concentration is calm > &refined, has attained serenity &unity, and is no longer kept in > place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. > > > This description doesn't fit well for someone who is striving to > attain the jhanas, don't you agree? I do not think a person who has > attained the jhanas would also have wiped out of existence thoughts of > conceit. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: First of all, prior to the last two sentences, this certainly does not yet refer to the 4th jhana. But in any case, attaining jhanas alone doesn't uproot even a single defilement. While in the midst of a jhana, defilements are suppressed and inactive, but they are very much "alive" and reactivate when the jhanic state is exited. I think this sutta may describe successive degrees of suppression as one moves into higher jhanas, but I'm getting less and less certain. I must admit that you have planted a seed of doubt in me on this matter. I'm pleased that you have persisted. There *is* some oddness to this if it is to be interpreted as "jhanic". ---------------------------------------------------------- > > This is definitely a very un-jhanic passage to me. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand what you are saying. You know - perhaps this sutta is a mix of more than one original teaching; such confusing mixings do occur as the result of late codification of various teachings in many traditions. I wonder when this sutta was included in the Sutta Pitaka. --------------------------------------------------------- > > > With the abandoning of pleasure &pain -- as with the earlier > disappearance of elation &distress -- I entered &remained in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, > unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained > to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my > past lives. > > > I think the key phrase here is "concentrated, purified, bright, > unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained > to imperturbability". > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this sort of language is missing from the original sutta being discussed. ------------------------------------------------------- > > Could there be another method to achieve this state besides the 4th > jhana? Well, I think so. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Perhaps. Perhaps the 1st jhana, perhaps only access concentration - I won't rule this out. Again, though, the higher powers and knowledges are generally associated with the 4th jhana. There is, indeed, a question here, however, and I repeat that I'm happy that you have persisted in making your point. ----------------------------------------------------- > > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31236 From: Raymond Hendrickson Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence > > > Doret Says: > > > > Yes, it is conceivable that we can do both at once. But I have no > wiggle > > room now, working 14 hours a day on one or more of the following: > the > > magazine, typing and editing a book by a prisoner, editing and > selecting > > teachings by a dharma teacher for publication, and sending > prisoners > > spiritual & legal materials. In addition, my husband has lung > cancer and > > needs periodic assistance. So there is barely space for meditation > practice, > > and I need much more. But you are right. Helping others MUST BE > connected > > with our own progress. > > > > With metta, > > Doret > > > > James says: > > It is commendable that you have done so much bringing the dhamma to > prisoners, but I believe your own practice should come first. I > also feel an affinity for prisoners, and I even joined The Prison > Dharma Network, but then I realized that I am no position to really > help prisoners and dropped out. Why? Because I realized that I am > in a type of prison myself. I am in the prison of samsara and the > five clinging aggregates. This prison of suffering is there no > matter where I go; I don't need to be surrounded by concrete and > bars to know suffering. From the top of my head to the tip of my > toes is my jail cell. How much can one person in prison help > another person in prison? > > Only those who have released themselves from the prison of samsara > are in any position to really help those who are still in prison > (either metaphorically or literally). The Buddha taught for 45 > years all anyone needs to know to get out of the prison. The rest > is up to each person. I just thought I would share my thoughts with > you—ultimately you should follow your heart and do what you think is > best. Personally, I think that one day I will work to help > prisoners, but I have to work on my own release first. ;-)) > > Metta, James > I tend to agree with Doret here. There also seems to be Sutta support for the position that helping others is one aspect of one's own practice and indeed is part of helping our self. This is clearly pointed out in one of my favor ate Suttas, the Acrobat, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-019.html . At first it appears that the Sutta is strong support for the position that each of us can best help others by working on our own practice, and indeed I think this is the best approach. But the Sutta ends with this..... "Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself. "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. "A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself." So here, IMO, we can see that "engaged Buddhism," be it helping prisioners or poor, etc, can indeed by an aspect of practice where one is wathing after themselves by watching after others. I think it is a very individual thing, and there are many ways to help, but I dont think as a general rule there has to be a hard line drawn between helping others and helping oneself. ....Ray 31237 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Ken O, Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I seem to operate the reverse of your way. When I am overloaded with work and responsibilities, I fall easily into a rhythm of determined speed. There is no time to notice anything except focus on the current task. Yet I can get sidetracked by a something that gets my attention but could have been ignored. Then I regret the wrong choice and loss of time. At least, when I feel like my body and brain are a robot, I am aware that these are not me, that these are just the car driving me through my day. Everything is different if meditation precedes my work. There is an inner tranquility, what I call a Presence, that directs my priorities wisely and allows awareness to penetrate what I think and say and do. I don't work in haste. I work mindfully, walk mindfully, talk mindfully, etc. Normally, I handle adversity and difficult people with calm detachment, but it comes easier with regular meditation. Yes, I am addicted to those results. Far from needing to stop, I am convinced that I need to meditate more deligently. But I thank you for your considerate advice. With mettta, Doret > even if you lose all your property right now, you will be calm. > People can shout at you, cursing you with many unkind words, you > still be calm .On 3/12/04 7:46 AM, "Ken O" wrote: > Hi Doret > > Sad to say that is the danger of meditation without right > understanding (though as I said before, a few here disagreed with > me), it can be addictive (lobha). I suggest you stop your meditation > completely because you seem to be longing for a certain kind of > experience (but if others tell you not to stop - it is up to you to > choose). > > When you feel you are robot, honestly speaking that shows that dhamma > is not in your living moment. When you stand up, you feel the floor > is very hard, at that moment if you understand that due to body sense > and tangible (earth - hardness), body consciouness arise and that > experience the hardness. And if you reflect further, these moments > come in a fix order without anyone (or self) directing it, it arise > by conditions. And if you reflect further, you realise that why > Buddha say "this is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself". > All the six sense, like you are looking, hearing, smelling etc are > doors to practise. > > If you reflect this here and now, you will have a sense of calm that > even if you lose all your property right now, you will be calm. > People can shout at you, cursing you with many unkind words, you > still be calm. Because you know, the world is empty of a self or > anything pertaining to a self. That is what I mean by calm and not > otherwise. Only when you have this understanding, if you go to > practise meditation, it will become beneficial, no longer a burden. > > > Let me share with you my method for your reference > I memorise certain suttas by hard and there are benefits in it. I > love memorise text because they sounds like poems to me, it inspire > me. Or whenever I feel that lobha or dosa is too strong and I cant > focus, then this replay kicks in. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-011a.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059a.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-085.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-028a.html > It only take a few hours to remember them because they are repetiive, > just remember the juicy part ;-). > > I also urge you to read Abdhidhamma text - why - because, dhamma is > explain very clearly and in detail in Abdhidhamma. When one learn > clearly, confidence arose. When one learn Abdhidhamma, the > understand of not-self (as expounded by sutta) will be greatly > enhance. I benefit immersely from Abhidhamma - nothing beats it, it > make the sutta text so clear. > > Go to Zolag > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Abdhidhamma in Daily Life or Survey of Paramattha Dhammas as intro > Cetasikas - very important because it describe the three aggreagates > clearly - the feelings, perceptions and mental fabrications > aggregates. > Rupa - very important because it is about the material aggregates. > If you do not wish to know other details just understand the four > great elements and the sense rupas > > Third suggestion - keep reading posts from here, because they are > daily reminders of dhamma. At times you get inspire. If you like joy > - read Icaro posts. If you like serious no nonsense dhamma, read > Nina's. If you like occassional teasers, look for Sarah. If you like > people to give you a hard and blunt talk - thats me ;-). > > Last suggestion - there is no overnight Buddha. It is a very gradual > path. My personal experience, sometimes it can be a painful or > fustrating undertaking. Sometimes we fall down and lost touch, dont > give up, follow it and one day you will reach there. I have never > find any medicine that cure all my grief than the one Buddha teaches. > Many of us here, take a while to reach there and even then we are > still learning, still infants in Buddhism. > > > > Ken O 31238 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Ray, How beautiful! Thank you for the excerpts from the Acrobat Sutta. > "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through > endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. > This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. It is true that watching after others is a form of watching out for oneself because one has to observe right thought, right speech, right action, compassion and loving-kindness. One has to be patient and supportive, etc. > "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through > pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to > it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. There is the catch. Practice! That's the part I have to work on more. With metta and thanks, Doret > On 3/12/04 9:59 AM, "Raymond Hendrickson" wrote: > I tend to agree with Doret here. There also seems to be Sutta support > for the position that helping others is one aspect of one's own practice > and indeed is part of helping our self. This is clearly pointed out in one > of my favor ate Suttas, the Acrobat, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn47-019.html . At > first it appears that the Sutta is strong support for the position that > each of us can best help others by working on our own practice, and indeed > I think this is the best approach. But the Sutta ends with this..... > > "Monks, a frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll > watch after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the > thought, 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one > watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after > oneself. > > "And how does one, when watching after oneself, watch after others? Through > pursuing [the practice], through developing it, through devoting oneself to > it. This is how one, when watching after oneself, watches after others. > > "And how does one, when watching after others, watch after oneself? Through > endurance, through harmlessness, and through a mind of kindness & sympathy. > This is how one, when watching after others, watches after oneself. > > "A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch > after myself.' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, > 'I'll watch after others.' When watching after oneself, one watches after > others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself." > > So here, IMO, we can see that "engaged Buddhism," be it helping > prisioners or poor, etc, can indeed by an aspect of practice where one is > wathing after themselves by watching after others. I think it is a very > individual thing, and there are many ways to help, but I dont think as a > general rule there has to be a hard line drawn between helping others and > helping oneself. ....Ray > 31239 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Vis. lightness , etc. Visuddhimagga, lightness etc (Taken from my Rupas): The following three kinds of rúpa are sometimes produced by citta, sometimes by temperature, sometimes by nutrition. They are: buoyancy or lightness (lahutå) plasticity (mudutå) wieldiness (kammaññatå) Because of lightness, our body is not heavy or sluggish. Because of plasticity it is pliable, it has elasticity and is not stiff. Because of wieldiness it has adaptability. For the movement of the body and the performance of its functions, these three qualities are essential. They arise in the bodies of living beings, not in dead matter. These three rúpas are rúpas without a distinct nature, asabhåva rúpas; they are qualities of rúpa, namely, changeability of rúpa (vikåra rúpas, vikåra meaning change) [1] . The ³Atthasåliní² (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326) gives the following definitions of these three kinds of rúpa [2] : ... buoyancy of matter has non-sluggishness as its characteristic, removing the heaviness of material objects as its function, quickness of change as its manifestation, buoyant matter as its proximate cause. Next ³plasticity of matter² has non-rigidity as characteristic, removing the rigidity of material objects as function, absence of opposition in all acts due to its own plasticity as manifestation, plastic matter as proximate cause. ³Wieldiness of matter² has workableness suitable or favorable to bodily actions as characteristic, removal of non-workableness as function, non-weakness as manifestation, workable matter as proximate cause. The ³Atthasåliní² also states that these three qualities ³do not abandon each other². When one of them arises, the others have to arise as well. They never arise without the eight inseparable rúpas. Although the qualities of lightness, plasticity and wieldiness arise together, they are different from each other. The ³Atthasåliní² (in the same section) explains their differences. Buoyancy is non-sluggishness and it is like the quick movement of one free from ailment. Plasticity is plasticity of objects like well-pounded leather, and it is distinguished by tractability. Wieldiness is wieldiness of objects like well-polished gold and it is distinguished by suitableness for all bodily actions. When one is sick there is disturbance of the elements of the body, and then the body is sluggish, stiff and without adaptability. We read in the ³Visuddhimagga² (VIII, 28) about the disturbance of the elements: ... But with the disturbance of the earth element even a strong man¹s life can be terminated if his body becomes rigid, or with the disturbance of one of the elements beginning with water if his body becomes flaccid and putrifies with a flux of the bowels, etc., or if he is consumed by a bad fever, or if he suffers a severing of his limb-joint ligatures. When one is healthy, there are conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body. The ³Atthasåliní² states that these three qualities are not produced by kamma, but that they are produced by citta, temperature or nutrition. This commentary states (in the same section, 327): ... Thus ascetics say, ³Today we have agreeable food... today we have suitable weather... today our mind is one-pointed, our body is light, plastic and wieldy.² When we have suitable food and the temperature is right we may notice that we are healthy, that the body is not rigid and that it can move in a supple way. Not only food and temperature, also kusala citta can influence our physical condition. When we apply ourselves to mental development it can condition suppleness of the body. Thus we can verify in our daily life what is taught in the Abhidhamma. Lightness, plasticity and wieldiness condition our bodily movements to be supple. When we are speaking they condition the function of speech to be supple and ³workable². Whenever we notice that there are bodily lightness, plasticity and wieldiness, we should remember that they are qualities of rúpa, conditioned by citta, temperature or nutrition. Footnotes: 1. As we have seen in Ch 6, the two rúpas of bodily intimation, kåya viññatti, and speech intimation, våci viññatti, are also qualities of rúpa that are changeability of rúpa, vikåra rúpas. In some texts bodily intimation and speech intimation are classified separately as the two rúpas of intimation, viññatti rúpas. 2. See also Dhammasangaùi § 639 - 641 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 64. 31240 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Ray and Doret, Appreciated the nice citation, Ray (and agree with it of course). Here's another one that's appropriate, I think: "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for his own. The one who practices for his own benefit but not for that of others. The one who practices for his own benefit and for that of others. "Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre -- burning at both ends, covered with excrement in the middle -- is used as fuel neither in a village nor in the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others. The individual who practices for the benefit of others but not for his own is the higher & more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his own benefit but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others is, of these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost -- in the same way, of these four, the individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of other is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. "These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." Anguttara Nikaya IV.95 Chavalata Sutta The Firebrand http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-95.html 31241 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:33pm Subject: Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Dear Swee Boon, What is the last category called 'unclear'. Is it a kind of unclassified one? With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi All, > > I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to > confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all > have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of > arahantship. > > (1) insight preceded by tranquility - this refers to one who had > developed the mundane jhanas and used those jhanas as the basis of > contemplation of insight > > (2) tranquility preceded by insight - this refers to one who had not > developed the mundane jhanas but proceded straight into the > contemplation of insight; the tranquility obtained is that of > supramundane jhana. > > (3) tranquility in tandem with insight - this refers to one who had > developed the mundane jhanas but did not use those jhanas as the basis > of contemplation of insight > > (4) unclear > > > Regards > Swee Boon > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html > > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's > monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" > > "Yes, friend," the monks responded. > > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the > attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or another of four paths. Which four? > > "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by > tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the > path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in > tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness > concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, > settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is > born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the > path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his > obsessions destroyed. > > "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in > my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four > paths." 31242 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence You guys are inspiring me! With metta, Doret On 3/12/04 1:14 PM, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Ray and Doret, > > Appreciated the nice citation, Ray (and agree with it of course). Here's > another one that's appropriate, I think: > > "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in the > world. Which four? The one who practices neither for his own benefit nor for > that of others. The one who practices for the benefit of others but not for > his own. The one who practices for his own benefit but not for that of > others. The one who practices for his own benefit and for that of others. > > > > "Just as a firebrand from a funeral pyre -- burning at both ends, covered > with excrement in the middle -- is used as fuel neither in a village nor in > the wilderness: I tell you that this is a simile for the individual who > practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others. The individual > who practices for the benefit of others but not for his own is the higher & > more refined of these two. The individual who practices for his own benefit > but not for that of others is the highest & most refined of these three. The > individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others is, of > these four, the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & > supreme. Just as from a cow comes milk; from milk, curds; from curds, > butter; from butter, ghee; from ghee, the skimmings of ghee; and of these, > the skimmings of ghee are reckoned the foremost -- in the same way, of these > four, the individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of other > is the foremost, the chief, the most outstanding, the highest, & supreme. > > > > "These are the four types of individuals to be found existing in the world." > > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.95 > > Chavalata Sutta > > The Firebrand > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-95.html > 31243 From: Sarah Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yuganaddha Sutta Hi Swee Boon (Jon, Nina, Suan, RobK), --- nidive wrote: > Hi All, > > I know that this sutta had been discussed before. But I would like to > confirm with DSG members, especially Nina, RobertK and Sarah (you all > have the commentaries, don't you?) on the four types of attainment of > arahantship. <...> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html We don’t have the commentaries and just rely on brief notes given by translators or friends that help out like Suan or Nina who uses the Thai as well as Pali more and more. Jon has written many posts on this sutta and included any commentary notes given. I’m in a rush, so have just fished out some of his posts rather than stop to reflect further. I think the second one will be of most interest to you. Maybe you can take up any further discussion with him based on his comments (and those from the commentary) and Nina or Suan can help if there is anything needed more comy assistance: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30594 http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3905.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3929.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27712 http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m15330.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3929.html Metta, Sarah ======= 31244 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:08pm Subject: groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, What sort of reality is a rupa group? If it is a paramattha dhamma, what is its distinguishing characteristic (sabhava)? Are cetasikas classified as groups? Is it correct that space and the lightness triad characterize only groups, not individual rupas such as hardness or visible data? Below is a list of rupa groups. Are there more? 8 inseparables: earth, wind, fire, air, color, smell, taste, nutritive essence. 8 + life faculty 8 + bodily intimation 8 + sound 8 + life + eye base, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or female faculty, or male faculty, or heart base 8 + vocal intimation + sound 8 + lightness triad (lightness, malleability, wieldiness) 8 + lightness triad + bodily intimation 8 + lightness triad + vocal intimation + sound Larry 31245 From: Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Swee Boon, yes it is an interesting sutta, because it appears to neither mention absorption (jhana), nor insight (vipassana). While jhana and vipassana are not mentioned in all of the sutta, they are often referred to indirectly. Below you will see I have copied key phrases out of the Pansadhovaka Sutta, AN III.100(i-x) to show where jhana is referred to in several places. This sutta also seems to be quite a bit like the Samadhi Sutta Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 in its attempt to reveal the "fruits" of attainment. Here you will see that classic conditions for jhana expressed "pliant, malleable, or luminous..." You will also see jhana referred to in the term "heightened mind." "these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind..." I f you recall jhana also require the condition of relinquishment, which is expressed in these words, "abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence..." And, this is a description for jhana "But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint... " Now here we have a reference to the 4 "higher knowledeges," or "fruits of the practice. " "And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening... Finally the single fruit of attainment that this sutta is really interested in is the occult powers. "If he wants, he wields manifold supernormal powers... " And, finally the final "fruit of the practice being free of "effluents" or the "hindrances." "If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening." This is a good sutta to bring up Swee Boon in reference to the Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.4, because they both talk about the "fruits" or Knowledeges of attainment. Howard, did an excellent job expounding the relevance of this sutta however he may have been a bit to vigorous in his defense. We should also remember every time the word 'concentration' is used, it is most likely for the Pali term 'samadhi,' which implies absorption. Best regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/12/04 10:49:20 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:51:27 -0000 From: "nidive" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Jeff, How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) Pansadhovaka Sutta * The Dirt-washer http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html Regards, Swee Boon >> 31246 From: Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:44pm Subject: Not so short hello, from Jou Ex: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > -----Original Message----- > From: dhammastudygroup Moderator > [mailto:dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: Saturday, 13 March, 2004 10:52 AM > To: josmith.1@b... > Subject: Welcome to dhammastudygroup > > Dear Dhamma Friend, Hi All > Welcome to the group. Much appreciated. Hope you are well and happy. > We hope you will take part in and benefit from the exchange > of views here. So do I. > All new members are invited to consider posting a short > 'Hello'. Other members would be interested to know something > about you, your interest in Buddhism and how you found your way here! In 1986, I got involved with Buddhism. Towards the end of that year I ordained as a Theravaadin monk, which I continued for six years till March 1993. Three of those six years were in intensive Vipassanaa meditation in South East Asia. Since then I have been living as a layman in Australia. I have nearly finished a Bachelor of Arts degree at the University of Queensland in which I majored in Buddhism and Chinese. In my Buddhist major I studied Paali, Sanskrit and Buddhist Chinese. The purpose for majoring in modern Chinese was to help me understand Chinese language for the purpose of reading and translating the 4 Chinese Aagama. They are the Chinese equivalents of the 4 Paali Nikaayaa and were translated from Sanskrit before the intollerant invaders of India destroyed a lot of those texts. Since Early Buddhism disappeared in Chinese quite quickly, those Aagama texts fell into disuse and got fossilised. The latter is a good thing, in a way, since they would not be affected by changing ideas on what the Buddha taught. As we know, all conditioned things are impermanent, so the texts would be changed over time if they were being used, as well as deteriorate over time, whether they are being used or not. I try to apply the 4 Great Authorities and the Kalaama Sutta in my study and practice. Since all conditioned things are impermanent, I accept that even in the 4 Nikaaya and Vinaya there will be texts that are not [according to] the Buddha's teaching. The challenge is to identify what would be corruptions, this means I have to be willing to question my assumptions and cherished [clung to] interpretations of the Buddha's teaching. The amazing thing is that it seems the Buddha gave a study method for his teaching that enables one to have faith in and take him as the teacher and rely on oneself or the Dhamma. An example of my application of this method can be seen at: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html. I have written a book about the Buddha's teaching called "The Gift of the Buddha - a Happy Life", which I am looking to publish. Even thought I just focus on the Paali Texts it has an excellent foreword by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. See link below for more info. if you wish. The Sutta and Vinaya texts are what I focus on, not the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That is because I wish to focus on that which is generally not doubted to be the Word of the Buddha, for it is his teaching I am interested in. I look for those who want to focus on his teaching, not other's understandings or interpretations of it. From the home page I understand that this group is interested in "the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition". So I am not sure if this group is for me. Please let me know. I only read the emails via the web when I have some spare time. So I ask people to CC me personally when replying to a post of mine, so I know to come back to the group to reply. ---------------------------------------------------- Please Act Urgently: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/urgent_action_please.html If you're replying to a newsgroup or e-group post of mine please also CC to me personally. Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith Promotion of my book, The Gift of the Buddha, with a foreword by HHDL: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/tgotb E-group on my book, get a free older copy: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic All e-mail addresses are in square brackets with the @ sign replaced by a space, to make it harder for hackers to use extraction programs. E-mail/MSN: [josmith.1 bigfoot.com] E-mail/Yahoo: [josmith_1_2000 yahoo.com] Student Email: [s351543 student.uq.edu.au] ICQ: http://wwp.icq.com/183459 Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778 Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653 S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1 Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and others) and be online with all of them at the same time. Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to the sender. 31247 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:09pm Subject: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Dear Group, I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, but how is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- § 2.12. When dwelling on views as "supreme," a person makes them the utmost thing in the world, &, from that, calls all others inferior and so he's not free from disputes. When he sees his advantage in what's seen, heard, sensed, or in precepts & practices, seizing it there he sees all else as inferior. That, too, say the skilled, is a binding knot: that in dependence on which you regard another as inferior. So a monk shouldn't be dependent on what's seen, heard, or sensed, or on precepts & practices; nor should he conjure a view in the world in connection with knowledge or precepts & practices; shouldn't take himself to be "equal"; shouldn't think himself inferior or superlative. [Sn IV.5] § 2.13. Whoever construes 'equal,' 'superior,' or 'inferior,' by that he'd dispute; whereas to one unaffected by these three, 'equal,' 'superior,' do not occur. Of what would the brahman say 'true' or 'false,' disputing with whom: he in whom 'equal,' 'unequal' are not. Having abandoned home, living free from society, the sage in villages creates no intimacies. Rid of sensual passions, free from yearning, he wouldn't engage with people in quarrelsome debate. Those things aloof from which he should go about in the world: the great one wouldn't take them up & argue for them. As the prickly lotus is unsmeared by water & mud, so the sage, an exponent of peace, without greed, is unsmeared by sensuality & the world. An attainer-of-wisdom isn't measured made proud by views or by what is thought, for he isn't affected by them. He wouldn't be led by action, learning; doesn't reach a conclusion in any entrenchments. For one dispassionate toward perception there are no ties; for one released by discernment, no delusions. Those who grasp at perceptions & views go about butting their heads in the world. [Sn IV.9] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31248 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Doret You have to excuse me if I am very blunt here. I am known to be barking terrier ;-). D: Everything is different if meditation precedes my work. There is an inner tranquility, what I call a Presence, that directs my priorities > wisely and allows awareness to penetrate what I think and say and do. I don't work in haste. I work mindfully, walk mindfully, talk mindfully, etc. k: So are you telling me that when only there is Presence there, it is consider practising Buddhism. Do you see Buddha tell those who being rude to him, hey wait a mintue I need to go into meditation to have the presence before I can talk to you about dhamma? Do you hear Buddha say in the text, hey monks go to practise later or do you hear him say hey monk, only when you have presence then you are practising? Or do you seen these in the suttas, the guarding the six senses, satipatthana in daily activities like eating, drinking etc are practising. What you think is a fallacy a lot of people fall into. Because they think Buddhism is only later and not now. Because they think there is a need to go a do something special then it is called Buddhism. k: How do you talk mindfully, walk mindfully. Do you observe your walk mindfully or you are experiencing the movement. If you think there is a need to mindfully walk - you already fall into the trap of self because you have an idea one must walk mindfully then it is consider satipatthana. Satipatthana, there is not self that is walking, it is only rupas and cittas that are walking by its own conditions. It is only body consciouness conditioned the rupas to do the walking. It realise there is no me, I or myself. So even when somebody bang you, it is not you that is being hit on, it is only body consciouness, it is only bodily pain and the pain is not I me or myself. That is satipatthana and not observing the movement or noticing the movement. It is the knowledge that things will go to their conditions and these condtions are empty of a self. Even when you do breathing meditation, is it you that breathe or body consciounes that breath. When chest moves up and down in breathing, is it there is an I doing it or there it moves on its own? Can you stop breathing indefinitely. Let me tell you this cold fact, once you are addicted to a result, there is no Nibbana (look at the Relay Chariot MN 24). Buddhism is not about obtaining calmess, it is about seeing the nature of dhammas. From there the calmess attain is truly calmness, not dependent on any self. Ken O 31249 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. HI Sukin Here we go again > However, just as I was reminded about digging my nose with perhaps > a glimpse of the akusala citta and I stopped doing it; it is not > about a 'situation'. Even though it was still on the level of 'thinking', it wasn't about sila either. Besides, I could have continued with the digging, only this time not mindlessly, but with a clear objective, i.e. to clean my nose. ;-) But then there is no guarantee that there will be clear comprehension and that akusala will not be conditioned at any time. But I will not make a rule about 'not to dig my nose'. Same applies to watching the movies or reading the papers. I could have sati before, in the middle of or towards the end of the activity. But I will not make any rules about it! Why? Because it is encouraging of self-view. k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. There is no rules. The rules are simple, if panna is strong enough, you will stop. If not, we will have to reflect why do we not stop. Then this will condition panna. If we continue doing it and hoping sati will grow - that is a fallacy. If we know there is no way we can stop it due to our panna is weak, we leave it as it is but at the meantime we will reflect on its drawback. Then in such a way then panna will grow. Panna will not grow if we think this is condition and I cannot make any rules because all are conditions and let it be. Good Luck. If that is the case, we are no better than the animals. We are different we can consider dhamma, we can reflect on our aksuala actions. No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect and consider dhamma more. S: Reminders are effective only when they are recalled at the appropriate moment. You could be having post-its all over your house with reminders written on them, but are they effective compared to when something is recalled with wisdom? k: if you dont reflect it everyday, do you think wisdom will come out from thin air ;-). If you look at the suttas, it is always ponder and a few times memorise. Why because when we ponder, we condition panna. Dont bank on panna to save your ass if you dont ponder it or remind yourself. S: Is he making excuses, or are there simply not the right conditions for restraint? But what if he did have deep insight while indulging himself? K: Ya sure, Buddha will have encourage us to drink more. That is very rare - how many have you seen in the text (the most famous Anguilima). Or the text is talking about this person, ardently practise and attain deathless. S: On the other hand, someone might be very strict about sila, but self-view may cause him not to have any insight. Of course insight can arise at any time, even to know wrong view. K: I think you dont get what I said, I already mention, no panna no sila. S: I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. K: You are very wrong, it is not just wrong view that hinder satipatthana. It is akusala that hinder satipatthana. Wrong view is only when we think there is am I that is practising the path? Ken O 31250 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 0:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello Doret, KenO, Mike, Ray, Philip and all in this interesting thread, People often act in order to fulfil their own needs, so it is often difficult to know when one is 'practising' for one's own good or for the good of others. Doesn't it depend on the quality of the citta (consciousness) at that time? There are uncountable citta that arise in the 'blink of an eye' and I can certainly think of quite a number of mine that are akusala (unwholesome), or mixed akusala and kusala, when the action 'seems' to be entirely kusala (wholesome). e.g. having bought a take away meal from the hospital canteen and realised after eating the meal that I hadn't paid. I went back and paid, but can remember feeling annoyance at one point that I had to make a second trip up the stairs (aversion) and also of feeling critical of the volunteer who served me - "It's their job to make sure they ask for the money", and, as well, a fleeting "Oh what a good person I am" feeling (conceit). So - the action may have seemed admirable to others, but I know what was really going on inside my head. :-) The Teacher taught about Intention = kamma, not achievements. And intention isn't a solid lasting mindstate. It arises and falls away momentarily. If an intention to act arises out of the need to be thought of as 'a good and caring person', the cittas include mana - conceit, ditthi - self view; or if the intention to do good arises because one feels sorry for some category of others the cittas include dosa - aversion, ditthi - self view; Help others by all means - but be aware of the ever changing motives and intentions. Practising for one's own benefit and the benefit of others, doesn't mean one has to go out and be involved in welfare projects... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-020.html "A monk endowed with five qualities practices both for his own benefit and for that of others. Which five? "There is the case where a monk is himself consummate in virtue and encourages others to be consummate in virtue. He himself is consummate in concentration and encourages others to be consummate in concentration. He himself is consummate in discernment and encourages others to be consummate in discernment. He himself is consummate in release and encourages others to be consummate in release. He himself is consummate in the knowledge & vision of release and encourages others to be consummate in the knowledge & vision of release. "Endowed with these five qualities, a monk practices both for his own benefit and for that of others." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-096.html "And who is the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others? There is the case where a certain individual practices for the subduing of passion within him/herself and encourages others in the subduing of passion; practices for the subduing of aversion within him/herself and encourages others in the subduing of aversion; practices for the subduing of delusion within him/herself and encourages others in the subduing of delusion. Such is the individual who practices for his/her own benefit and for that of others." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 31251 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:22am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 11 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as a dove sings , there hears the song of the bird. Its 'koo..' is sound. It is auditory object. It is sound-sense-base. This means that the sound is the base for arising of hearing-consciousness. The sound is sadda. It is rupa. It is called sadda arammana or auditory object. As it is a base for hearing-consciousness it is called sadda-ayatana or sound-sense-base. Its 'koo..' is heard because there is ear. The ear is sense receiver. It is ear-sense-base. This means that the ear is the base for arising of hearing-consciousness. The ear is sota. It is called sota vatthu. It is called sota pasada. As it is a base for hearing-consciousness it is called sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. There are saddayatana ( the 'koo..' of bird song ) and sotaayatana ( the ear ). The air supports. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise hearing-consciousness or sotavinnana citta. There is the song 'koo..'. There is saddayatana or sound-sense-base. There is the ear. There is sotaayatana or ear-sense-base. There arises sotavinnana citta or hearing-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam 31252 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. HI Ken 0 > Here we go again --------------------------------------------------------------------- As you wish, pal! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Not necessarily. By the way, Akusala Dhammas are Dhammas - and here lies the pañña: separating the subtile from the coarse matters. Cf. the initial chapter of Dhammasangani "Mattika". -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > S: I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. > > K: You are very wrong, it is not just wrong view that hinder > satipatthana. It is akusala that hinder satipatthana. Wrong view is > only when we think there is am I that is practising the path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At applied questions, satipatthana is no more hinded than any other matter on Theravada Buddhism - some can think that only chosen ones can put it in action, others can conceive that now the gates of Satipatthana are open to all human beings fitted to practise such techniques. In all this questions the Middle Path is really paramount! mettaya, Ícaro 31253 From: nidive Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Hi Htoo, It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. What is your understanding regarding this matter, Htoo? Regards, Swee Boon 31254 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Hi, Christine - In a message dated 3/13/04 2:11:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. > I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, but how > is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ I don't take these as advising no discussion, but only not clinging to views, quarreling, and feeling that one has to "win". Some specfics which lead me to this perspective are the following: When dwelling on views as "supreme," a person makes them the utmost thing in the world, &, from that, calls all others inferior and so he's not free from disputes. So a monk ... shouldn't think himself inferior or superlative. Whoever construes 'equal,' 'superior,' or 'inferior,' by that he'd dispute; whereas to one unaffected by these three, 'equal,' 'superior,' do not occur. Rid of sensual passions, free from yearning, he wouldn't engage with people in *quarrelsome* debate. [Emphasis mine] An attainer-of-wisdom isn't measured made proud by views or by what is thought, for he isn't affected by them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31255 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken (and Doret) - In a message dated 3/13/04 2:18:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Doret > > You have to excuse me if I am very blunt here. I am known to be > barking terrier ;-). > > D: Everything is different if meditation precedes my work. There is > an inner tranquility, what I call a Presence, that directs my > priorities > >wisely and allows awareness to penetrate what I think and say and > do. I don't work in haste. I work mindfully, walk mindfully, talk > mindfully, etc. > > k: So are you telling me that when only there is Presence there, it > is consider practising Buddhism. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Excuse me, but I didn't see a characterization there of what is to be considered "practising Buddhism." Doret merely said he does way better when his day begins with meditation. ------------------------------------------- Do you see Buddha tell those who> > being rude to him, hey wait a mintue I need to go into meditation to > have the presence before I can talk to you about dhamma? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Did Doret suggest that? Also, that's the Buddha you are talking about, right? Not Joe Worldling. ------------------------------------------ Do you hear> > Buddha say in the text, hey monks go to practise later or do you hear > him say hey monk, only when you have presence then you are > practising? > Or do you seen these in the suttas, the guarding the six senses, > satipatthana in daily activities like eating, drinking etc are > practising. What you think is a fallacy a lot of people fall into. > Because they think Buddhism is only later and not now. Because they > think there is a need to go a do something special then it is called > Buddhism. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is all a red herring, Ken. The Buddha repeatedly encouraged meditation, and Doret has said nothing more than that his meditating serves him well, particularly making an ongoing mindfulness practice more effective for him. What, other than a distaste for meditating, would prompt a questioning of this? -------------------------------------------------- > > > k: How do you talk mindfully, walk mindfully. Do you observe your > walk mindfully or you are experiencing the movement. If you think > there is a need to mindfully walk - you already fall into the trap of > self because you have an idea one must walk mindfully then it is > consider satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: What if one thinks there is a need to discuss, or evaluate, or write letters on e-mail lists, or reply to same, or criticize the form of someone's practice? What if one thinks there is a need to do anything? Isn't that also "falling into the trap of self?" We're all caught in that trap. Thus it would seem that we dare not act in any way at any time! ---------------------------------------------------- Satipatthana, there is not self that is> > walking, it is only rupas and cittas that are walking by its own > conditions. It is only body consciouness conditioned the rupas to > do the walking. It realise there is no me, I or myself. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: These are mere words, Ken. I agree with them, but that is just belief. The mind must be trained until it *knows*, and doesn't just believe. As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta commences with that. ---------------------------------------------------- So even> > when somebody bang you, it is not you that is being hit on, it is > only body consciouness, it is only bodily pain and the pain is not I > me or myself. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Quite true, Ken. But, on the street, if ever someone mindlessly or intentionally slams hard into you, especially if s/he does so with evident purposeful enjoyment, does anger not flare? Right there is the sense of self asserting itself, Ken. Believing that there is no self is just opinion. Coming to that belief, while a critical beginning, is no substitute for weakening the sense of self and its effect. The sense of self will be with us for aeons, and it's presence (not Doret's "presence" ;-) should not be taken as a justification for doing nothing. ------------------------------------------------- That is satipatthana and not observing the movement or> > noticing the movement. It is the knowledge that things will go to > their conditions and these condtions are empty of a self. Even when > you do breathing meditation, is it you that breathe or body > consciounes that breath. When chest moves up and down in breathing, > is it there is an I doing it or there it moves on its own? Can you > stop breathing indefinitely. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think you are preaching to the choir, Ken. All Buddhists accept this. This is not the point. The point that you seem to make is that since we are overcome by sense of self (until arahanthood), one should not meditate. To raise an aging issue, such a position is certainly idiosyncratic. But more than that, I would say it is extreme and false, and not taught by the Buddha - but, of course , that's just my opinion. -------------------------------------------------- > > Let me tell you this cold fact, once you are addicted to a result, > there is no Nibbana (look at the Relay Chariot MN 24). Buddhism is > not about obtaining calmess, it is about seeing the nature of > dhammas. From there the calmess attain is truly calmness, not > dependent on any self. > > > Ken O > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31256 From: Doret Kollerer Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Ken O, I appreciate your desire to help clarify my thinking. But this is getting us (me, at least) far afield. It is impossible for me to explain, or for you to analyze, my experience in specific detail that can be argued or clarified. It just is. All I am saying is that if I start my day with formal meditation, even if it just walking meditation, the rest of the day is taken care of. There is an inner calmness, a mindfulness, that I do not have to call into being any more than the moments of bliss that may also come spontaneously. This state just is. It follows its own laws and sustains me. I originally asked whether Theravadin Buddhism is opposed to engaged Buddhism. I see there is at least some feeling on this list that it is not. That was my hope because I have profound respect for Theravadin Buddhism and for the Thervadin monk who introduced me to it, but I also am an engaged Buddhist in the sense that I keep a magazine alive that brings help and spiritual nourishment to men and women on Death Row and in solitary confinement. Just yesterday my first issue of Turning Wheel arrived, and it contains eight full pages listing resources on socially engaged Buddhism. It also refers the reader to the website where there are tons more links and resources. So there is a widespread international movement devoted to engaged Buddhism. What this interchange tells me is that Buddha wisely took into consideration the various needs of future followers, and that is why there are diverse schools and lineages of Buddhism, which nevertheless share an essential Buddhist core. And what this list itself tells me is how helpful it is to have a place where problems can be described because their very description is therapeutic and clarifying. And using the list to find the middle way is a much-needed service. Thank you all for your contribution to my well-being and work. With metta, Doret On 3/12/04 11:17 PM, "Ken O" wrote: > k: So are you telling me that when only there is Presence there, it > is consider practising Buddhism. Do you see Buddha tell those who > being rude to him, hey wait a mintue I need to go into meditation to > have the presence before I can talk to you about dhamma? Do you hear > Buddha say in the text, hey monks go to practise later or do you hear > him say hey monk, only when you have presence then you are > practising? 31257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: impermanence 2. conditions. Hi Howard, You wrote: H: Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction > is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and > there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes. N: Conditions. Good reminder. Again, I can say about myself: I am like a parrot, repeating texts without applying them in my life. Personally many details help me to understand at least theoretically the three characteristics. I am delighted with all details given in the Visuddhimagga, for examples about rupas we study now. (I do not expect others to be equally delighted:-)) Rob K likes to quote texts about the need of details for deluded people. The Buddha taught more details to the extent people were more deluded. I think you have Ledi Sayadaw's book: he writes about the synchrony of relations (I can recommend this), and about the types of conditions. Phenomena are conditioning factors or conditioned factors. I quote: Once we study conditions we have to differentiate them and consider them as they operate at a given moment, such as at the moment of seeing, or hearing. There is much more to consider, but I just would like to show the complexity of conditions. I see them as different from just attributes. H: Try to distinguish, for example, between happiness being a mental condition and being a mental attribute. N: I think that we should consider first with what type of citta it is arising: happiness that is kusala, or akusala, or neither. Is happiness as you see it feeling cetasika or the cetasika that is piti, rapture of joy?. It is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in its turn it conditions citta and cetasikas and also bodily phenomena. H: Also, for that matter, why is not hardness just as much of > a "modality" or "attribute" as lightness? As I see it, none of this holds > together. N: We are studying now lightness, a mode or characteristic of rupa, but not concrete matter. As to hardness, this is the Earth Element, one of the four Great Elements. It is concrete matter. Just a few thoughts. Concluding with a helpful quote from Jon about conditions: end quote. Nina. 31258 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Message from Andrew Dear Ken H, please pass on our feelings of condolescence to Andrew and Sandra. I appreciate it very much that they took such good care of Sandra's father who stayed with them for a long time. Nina and Lodewijk. > --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, >> >> I passed on your messages to Andrew and he told me to thank you for >> thinking of him; he will be back sooner or later. Sad news, >> however, about Sandra's father. He died this morning – quite a lot >> sooner than they were expecting. 31259 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spinning out Pannati Dear Philip, I enjoy these reminders in old posts you send now and then and also your added remarks. I need such reminders about spinning out concepts. Appreciating this, thank you. I can add something. I remember Rob K's example: when he was leaning against something soft in a densely packed Tokio metro he was clinging to a concept of a woman. Afterwards he discovered that it was an old man with a down jacket. It shows the illusionary nature of concepts we are inclined to take for very important. We can learn all the time if we do not try to ignore akusala that arises. You mentioned that you first thought that being enlightened means being an arahat. The first stage of enlightenment is the stage of the sotapanna. The sotapanna has no more wrong view but still has lobha, dosa and moha. However, he does not transgress the five precepts anymore. The fact that there are four stages shows us how difficult it is to eradicate defilements. Wrong view has to be eradicated first. This teaches us something important: we should not ignore lobha, dosa and moha, but learn to see it as it is: conditioned realities that are anatta. Nina. op 12-03-2004 14:22 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > Whether we have a sitting practice or not, we will to > continue to spin out lots of pannati. If we think of > the pannati as an obstacle to progress, we are going > to find the development of awareness very difficult > indeed." (Jon) > > I will surely continue to spin out pannati, but will now be able to > see where it can play a role in my beginner's satipatthana practice. > 31260 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hidden lobha Hi Larry, I always hesitate to say much about the Dependent Origination, although I think that we should see it as pertaining to our life now. Take: consciousness, vi~n~naa.na conditions nama rupa. Nama are cetasikas. We see in Vis. Ch XVII, 207, that consciousness here stands for vipakacitta: at rebirth and throughout life. We have to consider the different moments of vipaka and then see: what type of condition these are for what types of cetasikas and rupas. And also: by which ways (of the 24 classes) the conditioning factor is a condition for the dhamma that is conditioned. Take seeing: it is conditioned by kamma of the past by way of kamma-condition and by strong dependence condition. It is conditioned by visible object by way of object-condition. It is conditioned by the eyebase by way of support-condition. It is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas (contact, feeling, etc.) by way of conascent condition and other conditions. In its turn it conditions nama, and these are here in the context of Dependent Origination the accompanying cetasikas of contact, feeling, etc. And seeing also conditions the succeeding citta by way of contiguity condition. As the Vis. states: no single fruit from a single cause. That makes it so complicated! And in the D.P. not all conditions are mentioned, but the more obvious are given. op 06-03-2004 15:47 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > First, do you agree that from "contact" to "clinging" in Dependent > Arising is the same as consciousness process? If so, what role > does "clinging" play? My contention is that it is accumulation. N: As explained in the Vis. XVII, 228 etc. and also in Dispeller of Delusion I, p. 219, it seems that contact and feeling are on the vipaka side. (Ven. Nyanatiloka, in B. Dict. ,sees it differently and also includes kusala and akusala feelings.) Then craving, clinging occur during the moments of javana, and at such moments there is accumulation of tendencies or performing of kamma. L: Second, I can see why you would want to maintain the distinguishing > characteristics of lobha and moha, but it seems to me in Dependent > Arising all three root cittas are included in the category > of "thirst" (tanha). What about that? N: The Dependent Origination teaches us that we are in the cycle at this moment. Because of ignorance (mentioned first) and clinging or thirst. We are clinging to life at this moment, to all sense objects. That is tanha is a link. Sankhara, formations, includes all kinds of akusala and also kusala. Nina. 31261 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Nina - Only a couple comments are interspersed by me in the following. In a message dated 3/13/04 1:31:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > You wrote: > H: Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute distinction > >is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely conditions, and > >there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes. > N: Conditions. Good reminder. Again, I can say about myself: I am like a > parrot, repeating texts without applying them in my life. > Personally many details help me to understand at least theoretically the > three characteristics. I am delighted with all details given in the > Visuddhimagga, for examples about rupas we study now. (I do not expect > others to be equally delighted:-)) Rob K likes to quote texts about the need > of details for deluded people. The Buddha taught more details to the extent > people were more deluded. > I think you have Ledi Sayadaw's book: he writes about the synchrony of > relations (I can recommend this), and about the types of conditions. > Phenomena are conditioning factors or conditioned factors. I quote: > synchrony of relations or paccaya-ghatanaa. All phenomena are called > sa-paccayaa (related to causes), and paticcasamupannaa (arising from a > conjuncture of circumstances); because, in arising and in standing, they > coexist with, or have, or are conditioned by, these twenty-four causal > relations.> > Once we study conditions we have to differentiate them and consider them as > they operate at a given moment, such as at the moment of seeing, or hearing. > There is much more to consider, but I just would like to show the complexity > of conditions. I see them as different from just attributes. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Two things. Firstly, I have internet material by Ledi Sayadaw bookmarked. I should look that over! Secondly, I do not see conditions as different from attributes, and I don't think the Abhidhamma and the commentaries do either. More about that later on. -------------------------------------------------- > H: Try to distinguish, for example, between happiness being a mental > condition and being > a mental attribute. > N: I think that we should consider first with what type of citta it is > arising: happiness that is kusala, or akusala, or neither. Is happiness as > you see it feeling cetasika or the cetasika that is piti, rapture of joy?. > It is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in its turn > it conditions citta and cetasikas and also bodily phenomena. > H: Also, for that matter, why is not hardness just as much of > >a "modality" or "attribute" as lightness? As I see it, none of this holds > >together. > N: We are studying now lightness, a mode or characteristic of rupa, but not > concrete matter. As to hardness, this is the Earth Element, one of the four > Great Elements. It is concrete matter. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't believe in concrete matter, Nina! ;-)) I believe in sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and bodily sensations such as hardness/softness, warmth/cold, itches, pressures, etc. (Very idiosyncratic!!!!!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > Just a few thoughts. > Concluding with a helpful quote from Jon about conditions: > the last book of the Abhidhamma , the importance of which is greatly > stressed in the commentaries and Abhidhammathasangaha is all about > conditions. Here we learn that > "moments" are extraordinarily complex instants in time with > influences from past > and present factors. The dhammas themselves are not > different from the quality they posses. In fact the > Atthasalini says that "there is > no other thing than the quality born by it" . > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Nina, exactly!! That is precisely why I say that the matter versus material-attribute distinction is not maintainable. That is exactly why I say "All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes." ------------------------------------------------- And no> > moment is identical with another-It is true that such > dhammas as sanna(perception) or vedana (feeling) or vinnana > (consciouness) are classified under the > same heading but the actual quality is influenced by > so many diverse factiors that not even one moment of > feeling is exactly the same. Also because similar conditions arise > repeatedly nor are succeeding moments totally different. The same > feeling can appear [and I stress appear] to last for seconds because > of this. The Abhidhamma allows us to understad that this is illusion > and to learn to study directly the present moment so that eventually > this idea of permanance is broken.> > end quote. > Nina. > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31262 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 0:47pm Subject: Re: Yuganaddha Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Htoo, It means that I'm not sure what Venerable Ananda was talking about regarding the fourth type of arahant. However, I suspect that this has something to do with the Pansadhovaka Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html "Then there is the case where a monk's mind ...becomes unified & concentrated. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html "When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. What is your understanding regarding this matter, Htoo? Regards, Swee Boon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply. To be honest, I am not as good as you at Dhamma study. I also find the last type or the 4th type a bit unclear. The 4th type does not tell whether there is preceeding tranquility. Nor does preceeding insight. Nor does in tandem. I feel that this type is not labeled which is good, in my opinion. A monk who declared that he attained arahatship in the presence of Venerable Ananda, has his restlessness concerning Dhamma well under control became calm and saw inward and attained arahatta magga nana. Even though it is not stated that whether there is preceeding tranquil or insight, both are there while he attained arahatship. Regarding Sangha Sutta or Pansadhovaka Sutta, I feel it is mentioning vitekkama, pariyutthana, and anusaya kilesa and their screening through sila, samadhi and panna. Latter parts are, I think, cittanupassana and with that bhikkhus attain higher nana. With much respect, Htoo Naing 31263 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:47pm Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Dhamma Friends, This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to enlightenment which is wrong. When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. There are still some people who do not have enough time to read Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be contaminated with wrong ideas. May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, Htoo Naing P.S: Please see the following replies to the original message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta pitaka) to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are commonly understood as the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as distinct practice paths. They are simply the attainments that one arrives at through the single practice regimen of right mindfulness (sama-sati), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just minor correction here. Samma means right, good, genuine, true. It is samma sati. It is not sama-sati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here it should be samma samadhi instead of sama-samadhi. Samma samadhi is right concentration. It is not right meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..which are the 7th and 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here stating without any supportive evidence. No sutta says that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin directly or indirectly. This is the very first intrusion into right dhamma to deviate into twisted form. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One who has absorption has insight, one who has insight has absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is simply the other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are simply different aspects of the same thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is continuation of own idea trying to twist the existing dhamma. And there is no evidence that says this in any suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: First talked 2 sides of coin that is insight and absorption. Now moves to 2 aspects of absorption. Let us see what are going on here. Bring wisdom with you all the time otherwise unexpected snake would bite you all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..it is the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce heat, and the other is to produce light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Inappropriate metaphor and it does not show anything more clearer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The same is true of absorption (samadhi), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not criticizing but words need to be correct. Jhana is translated as absorption. So absorption is jhana. Samadhi on the other hand has many implications. There are samadhi that are not absorption. So usage of words need to be careful and flawless. Otherwise everything will be mixing up and be creating all the mess. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..It produces both ecstasy (jhana), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When jhana has been translated as absorption, ecstasy the word will create another problem.So it is not appropriate here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Insight arises while in samadhi. This does not necessarily to be in absorption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice regimen, however there is no clear evidence to support this belief in the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is only one Path. That Path is NEP Noble Eightfold Path. This appeared early in the very first sutta and appear repeatedly in later suttas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of four distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products or fruits of the path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here is totally wrong and own assumptions are dangerously created. Dear all members of DSG, could you please read up Samadhi Sutta Anguttara Nikaya Volume IV.41 ? There mentions about samadhi very clearly. Samadhi Sutta is not about the 4 products of fruits of the path. It is just about samadhi. When sati is practised samadhi might develop. Samadhi that develop may lead to one or all 4 states. The first destination is jhana. Nothing more than that. The 2nd destination is attainment of knowledge and wisdom. This is not stated in connection with jhana or absorption. You all can see with your own eyes at AN IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. The 3rd destination is mindfulness and alertness. The 4th destination is the ending of effluents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are four "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the Buddha that clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The name of the Sutta is the Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No one say Four Paths except one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say this sutta is simply speaking of the four fruits that are a product of the single practice of mindfulness (sati). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here can be seen how own assumption has been made without supportive evidence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or fruits, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If it says 4 possible destinations, it will be appropriate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). And, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here faults again. Not sama-samadhi. The right word is samma samadhi. Samma means right. Samadhi means concentration. So samma samadhi means 'right concentration'. It is not right absorption. When samadhi and its implications are not well digested such problems have to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions must be the four results of the single attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Flaw again. No sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. Here you all can see that there is own assumption that is '' These 4 descriptions must be..'' This means own assumption. Could you all please read Samadhi Sutta thoroughly. Then you will see all the flaws in this original message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path, which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not exact translation of 4 cornerstones. 1. Kayanupassana satipatthana Contemplation on physical body. This involve 1.Anapana Pabba ( breathing meditation ) 2.Iriyapatha Pabba ( positional meditation ) 3.Sampajanna Pabba ( clear understanding meditation ) 4.Patikulamanasika Pabba (contemplative meditation on impurities of body parts ) 5.Dhatumanasika Pabba ( elemental meditation on body ) 6.Navasivathika Pabba ( contemplative meditation on 9 stages of decomposition of corpse ) 2. Vedananupassana satipatthana Many things to talk. 3. Cittanupassana satipatthana Many things to talk. 4. Dhammanupassana satipatthana Many things to talk. So it is not simply ( breath, body, senses, mind ) which again shows there omits Dhammanupassana which is the most important. This reveals inability to understand Mahasatipatthana Sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The result of right mindfulness (sama-sati) is absorption (sama- samadhi). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-sati. It is samma sati. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Absorption simply has four characteristics: mindfulness (sati); ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha), or what the Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana);" insight into seeing things as they are (vipassana); and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, or psychic abilities (lokuttara balani). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here flaws and writing is not clear. First said 4 characteristics: But there are 1.sati 2.piiti ( which should be 'piti' ) 3.sukha --- mixed as jhana 4.vipassana 5.lokuttara balani All the mess. The 1st Jhana has 1.vitakka 2.vicara 3.piti 4.sukha 5.ekaggata ---------------------------------------------------------------------- How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice regimen of Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It is through attainment that we can find out for certain if there are four fruits or four paths. All one need do is practice Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahasatipatthana is not the practice of absorption. All Buddhists know this sutta and its essence. Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. This shows persistent invasion into right dhamma trying to twist into wrong way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..and one will find out whether there are four fruits to the practice or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these separate fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a consequence of the dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here fruits do not clear. But satipatthana is not the practice of absorption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of concentration (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here gravely wrong. Satipatthana is not the practice of concentration. And satipatthana does not lead to mindfulness. Instaed mindfulness leads to satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..which leads to absorption (samadhi) which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, mindfulness (sati), ecstasy (jhana), insight (vipassana), and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane abilities (lokuttara balani). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Satipatthana Sutta does not say this. Nor Samadhi Sutta say this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 >Thanissaro Bhikkhu's version is at this URL: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html >"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration (samadhi). Which four? ... when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents. > "These are the four developments of concentration. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/files/ > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31264 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:50pm Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Swee Boon and Jeff, I have checked Pansadhovaka Sutta. There does not mention attainments of jhana. With Metta, Htoo Naing --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > How do you interpret this sutta then? I have always been interested in > it, because there appears to be no mention of jhana attainments. > > > Anguttara Nikaya III.100(i-x) > Pansadhovaka Sutta * > The Dirt-washer > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-100-1.html > > > Regards, > Swee Boon 31265 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views_&_Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.12-13_ Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. > I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, but how > is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? <...> > § 2.12. > When dwelling on views > as "supreme," > a person makes them > the utmost thing > in the world, <...> > [Sn IV.5] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered .... I discussed these suttas in some details ages ago with Erik and also Anders I recall and looked at other translations and so on. The important point, I think, is that the views refer to wrong or dogmatic views (micha ditthi) and the danger is in the clinging to them. Hence it is the wrong views and clinging to rite and ritual that have to be eradicated first. It’s really good to go through this series of translated suttas because they are so commonly read and as I see it, so commonly misinterpreted. I wrote before (to Anders): http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m9104.html “Thanks for your quotes from the Sutta Nipata and in particular, the Dutthatthaka and Paramatthaka suttas on views. I know we’ve discussed these areas before, but I’d like to stress that here the views are ‘not pure’. In other words, they are wrong views (micha ditthi), included amongst the many kinds discussed in the Brahmajala Sutta ‘net of views’.” I look forward to other comments. .... Christine, I greatly appreciated your post on ‘Engaged Buddhism’ and some of the other sutta posts with your introductions. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, news and comments on some current topics from B.Bodhi later when I get back this eve or tomorrow. =============== 31266 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Phil It was inspiring to read what you said about your realisation of the pitfalls of trying to 'transform dosa'. Obviously there were accumulated tendencies to see this, it just needed you to come across mention of it somewhere! So the credit goes to you ;-)). --- Philip wrote: > > Hello all > I'll just add that another benefit of the practice I described > above that it helps the other person. Being friendly towards > aversion- > causing people helps them more than glaring at them or scolding > them. > For those of us with altruistic leanings, helping others albeit > through wrong understanding may be as important as liberating > ourselves through right understanding. I expect I'll be continuing > on > this double track for awhile. There are lots of 'benefits' of lots of different 'practices'. However, benefits don't make a practice kusala ;-)) So rather than thinking in terms of a 'practice', it may be more useful to think in terms of developing kusala of whatever kind whenever the opportunity arises. Just to follow this on a little, even where some kusala is involved, it doesn't mean that panna arises or is more likely to arise as a result (all forms of kusala except the path itself can be developed without having heard the dhamma). And as regards panna, only panna that is of the level of satipatthana constitutes the path taught by the Buddha. All other kusala, including panna of the level of samatha, simply adds fuel to the forces that keep us continuing in samsara. Of course, all forms of kusala were highly praised by the Buddha and are to be developed, but we should understand clearly the relationship between kusala in general and the kusala that is path-moment, namely that while kusala in general is a necessary supporting condition for satipatthana/vipassana, it does not directly condition the latter's arising. The conditions for satipatthana/vipassana are unique and, in a sense, independent of the other forms of kusala. This is important to be clear about because we tend naturally to associate the arising of satipatthana with the presence of other forms of kusala (especially a level of calmness), which can be an obstacle to present moment awareness when the present moment doesn't match our idea of 'suitable/appropriate'. The conditions that are specific to the development of satipatthana are the most valuable things we can learn about in this lifetime. Jon 31267 From: Carl Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path/Contamination --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: >Htoo: Dear Dhamma Friends, > > This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and > samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly > highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to > enlightenment which is wrong. > > When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws > which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all > mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. > > Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the > message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they > all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. > > There are still some people who do not have enough time to read > Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as > a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine > message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. > > You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the > valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be > contaminated with wrong ideas. > > May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. > > With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ...........................SNIP................................... .................................................................. Carl: Dear Htoo, I so much appreciate your activities concerning this poster. The DSG is a special place that stands firm in the teaching of Theravadian Abhidhamma. The continual references to and reliance on the suttas and abhidhamma prevents those that might contaminate the teachings from doing so. Different view points, thoughts, and ideas as expressed in the DSG are it's charm. But attempting to corrupt the foundation of the sutta's in word and meaning, towards one's own agenda is not right. Mr Jeff Brooks is an intellegent, compeling, skillful, persuasive and seductive writer. He posts(spams) on several boards in the same manner and has a web site. I for one will no longer read his material as I find it untrustworthy and intentionally misleading. (IMHO of course.) ""Htoo: May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas.""" Thanks Carl 31268 From: m. nease Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hi Htoo Naing, Well said as usual--thanks. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and > samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly > highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to > enlightenment which is wrong. > > When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws > which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all > mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. > > Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the > message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they > all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. > > There are still some people who do not have enough time to read > Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as > a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine > message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. > > You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the > valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be > contaminated with wrong ideas. > > May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. > > With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > P.S: Please see the following replies to the original message. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta > pitaka) to support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" > or "techniques" which are commonly understood as the 'moist' > absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight (vipassana) path. It is > clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption nor insight as > distinct practice paths. > > They are simply the attainments that one arrives at through the > single practice regimen of right mindfulness (sama-sati), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Just minor correction here. Samma means right, good, genuine, > true. It is samma sati. It is not sama-sati. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here it should be samma samadhi instead of sama-samadhi. Samma > samadhi is right concentration. It is not right meditation. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..which are the 7th and 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. > > Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption > are simply two sides of the same coin. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here stating without any supportive evidence. No sutta says > that insight and absorption are simply two sides of the same coin > directly or indirectly. This is the very first intrusion into right > dhamma to deviate into twisted form. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One who has absorption has insight, one who has insight has > absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, > and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is ? simply the other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are > simply different aspects of the same thing. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is continuation of own idea trying to twist the existing > dhamma. And there is no evidence that says this in any suttas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: First talked 2 sides of coin that is insight and absorption. > Now moves to 2 aspects of absorption. Let us see what are going on > here. Bring wisdom with you all the time otherwise unexpected snake > would bite you all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ..it is the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce > heat, and the other is to produce light. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Inappropriate metaphor and it does not show anything more > clearer. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The same is true of absorption (samadhi), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not criticizing but words need to be correct. Jhana is > translated as absorption. So absorption is jhana. Samadhi on the > other hand has many implications. There are samadhi that are not > absorption. So usage of words need to be careful and flawless. > Otherwise everything will be mixing up and be creating all the mess. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ..It produces both ecstasy (jhana), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: When jhana has been translated as absorption, ecstasy the word > will create another problem.So it is not appropriate here. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ...and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the other. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Insight arises while in samadhi. This does not necessarily to > be in absorption. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an > assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice > regimen, however there is no clear evidence to support this belief in > the discourses of the Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There is only one Path. That Path is NEP Noble Eightfold Path. > This appeared early in the very first sutta and appear repeatedly in > later suttas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of > four distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products > or fruits of the path. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here is totally wrong and own assumptions are dangerously > created. > > Dear all members of DSG, could you please read up Samadhi Sutta > Anguttara Nikaya Volume IV.41 ? There mentions about samadhi very > clearly. > > Samadhi Sutta is not about the 4 products of fruits of the path. It > is just about samadhi. When sati is practised samadhi might develop. > > Samadhi that develop may lead to one or all 4 states. The first > destination is jhana. Nothing more than that. > > The 2nd destination is attainment of knowledge and wisdom. This is > not stated in connection with jhana or absorption. You all can see > with your own eyes at AN IV.41 Samadhi Sutta. > > The 3rd destination is mindfulness and alertness. > > The 4th destination is the ending of effluents. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are > four "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the > Buddha that clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The > name of the Sutta is the Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: No one say Four Paths except one. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say this sutta is simply > speaking of the four fruits that are a product of the single practice > of mindfulness (sati). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here can be seen how own assumption has been made without > supportive evidence. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or > fruits, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: If it says 4 possible destinations, it will be appropriate. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > And, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here faults again. Not sama-samadhi. The right word is samma > samadhi. Samma means right. Samadhi means concentration. So samma > samadhi means 'right concentration'. It is not right absorption. When > samadhi and its implications are not well digested such problems have > to arise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking > of different practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was > not. These 4 descriptions must be the four results of the single > attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Flaw again. No sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right > concentration. It is not right absorption. > > Here you all can see that there is own assumption that is '' These 4 > descriptions must be..'' This means own assumption. Could you all > please read Samadhi Sutta thoroughly. Then you will see all the flaws > in this original message. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same > practice path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a > single practice path, which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of > mindfulness. > > That is mindfulness of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is not exact translation of 4 cornerstones. > > 1. Kayanupassana satipatthana > > Contemplation on physical body. This involve > > 1.Anapana Pabba ( breathing meditation ) > 2.Iriyapatha Pabba ( positional meditation ) > 3.Sampajanna Pabba ( clear understanding meditation ) > 4.Patikulamanasika Pabba (contemplative meditation on impurities of > body parts ) > 5.Dhatumanasika Pabba ( elemental meditation on body ) > 6.Navasivathika Pabba ( contemplative meditation on 9 stages of > decomposition of corpse ) > > 2. Vedananupassana satipatthana > > Many things to talk. > > 3. Cittanupassana satipatthana > > Many things to talk. > > 4. Dhammanupassana satipatthana > > Many things to talk. > > So it is not simply ( breath, body, senses, mind ) which again shows > there omits Dhammanupassana which is the most important. This reveals > inability to understand Mahasatipatthana Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The result of right mindfulness (sama-sati) is absorption (sama- > samadhi). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-sati. It is samma sati. Not sama-samadhi. It is > samma samadhi. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Absorption simply has four characteristics: > > mindfulness (sati); > ecstasy (piiti) and > joy (sukha), or what the Buddha called "a pleasant abiding in the > here and now (jhana);" > insight into seeing things as they are (vipassana); > and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, or psychic > abilities (lokuttara balani). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here flaws and writing is not clear. First said 4 > characteristics: > > But there are > 1.sati > 2.piiti ( which should be 'piti' ) > 3.sukha --- mixed as jhana > 4.vipassana > 5.lokuttara balani > > All the mess. > > The 1st Jhana has > 1.vitakka > 2.vicara > 3.piti > 4.sukha > 5.ekaggata > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice > regimen of Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption > (sama-samadhi). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right > concentration. It is not right absorption. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It is through attainment that we can find out for certain if there > are four fruits or four paths. All one need do is practice > Satipatthana to its fruition in right absorption (sama-samadhi), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Mahasatipatthana is not the practice of absorption. All > Buddhists know this sutta and its essence. > > Flaws. Not sama-samadhi. It is samma samadhi. It is right > concentration. It is not right absorption. This shows persistent > invasion into right dhamma trying to twist into wrong way. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..and one will find out whether there are four fruits to the practice > or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right > absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these > separate fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a > consequence of the dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here fruits do not clear. But satipatthana is not the practice > of absorption. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of > concentration (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Here gravely wrong. Satipatthana is not the practice of > concentration. And satipatthana does not lead to mindfulness. Instaed > mindfulness leads to satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..which leads to absorption (samadhi) > > which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, > > mindfulness (sati), > ecstasy (jhana), > insight (vipassana), and > knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane abilities (lokuttara > balani). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Satipatthana Sutta does not say this. Nor Samadhi Sutta say > this. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 31269 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > Here we go again Sukin: :-) Sorry to drag you into the merry-go-round. Were I not afraid of wrong view seeping into the practice, I would be ardently practicing breath meditation to overcome my scatterbrain. In any case, the root cause being kilesas and only vippasana can eradicate this, I guess I need to be patient, at least. ;-) > k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. There is no > rules. The rules are simple, if panna is strong enough, you will > stop. Sukin: You are right!! The panna *is* extremely weak! Which is why I imagined a situation (`continue to dig mindfully'), to justify my position. This is silly. I talk about the difference between kusala and akusala and I don't even know if whether this moment is akusala or not! And I take `thinking about realities', as being so authoritative. But I guess all this is conditioned, and it just reflects the limited understanding, which of course I can't do anything about. Except to conclude, perhaps in agreement with you, that I need to keep going back to the basics and listen more and more. > k: If not, we will have to reflect why do we not stop. Then this > will condition panna. Sukin: Yes, it would be an instance of panna to recognize this even, but why must it necessarily condition reflection? Is that a rule? And if there was reflection, wouldn't this be determined by the accumulated panna? I could be reflecting and come up with all the wrong answers, no? Or I could be `thinking', and mistake this thinking for understanding? Yesterday, I wasn't feeling well, and I went to the discussions. I had a few questions and was very keen (read chanda) to understand, but somehow I had great difficulty grasping and reflecting on anything. Conditions, I think. > k: If we continue doing it and hoping sati will grow - that is a fallacy. Sukin: Yes, if one is `hoping', then it is quite unlikely that it will happen, but is anyone talking about hope? Isn't it all about the complexity of conditions and hence impossibility to know what will be conditioned to arise, when? > k:If we know there is no way we can stop it > due to our panna is weak, we leave it as it is but at the meantime we > will reflect on its drawback. Then in such a way then panna will > grow. Sukin: Yes, if there are conditions, anything can happen. > k: Panna will not grow if we think this is condition and I cannot > make any rules because all are conditions and let it be. Good Luck. Sukin: Is `luck' conditioned? ;-) If panna "knows" (not just thinks), that "this is condition and I cannot make any rules because all are conditions", then panna *is* being accumulated. And the statement "let it be" can be with or without panna. > k: No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect > and consider dhamma more. Sukin: But doesn't this sound like a rule? ;-) > k: if you dont reflect it everyday, do you think wisdom will come > out from thin air ;-). If you look at the suttas, it is always > ponder and a few times memorise. Why because when we ponder, we > condition panna. Dont bank on panna to save your ass if you dont > ponder it or remind yourself. Sukin: To read, ponder and memorise, isn't this also conditioned? And to do this, did panna come out of thin air? ;-) > S: Is he making excuses, or are there simply not the right > conditions for restraint? But what if he did have deep insight while > indulging himself? > > K: Ya sure, Buddha will have encourage us to drink more. Sukin: Huh! Why does this follow? > k: That is very rare - how many have you seen in the text (the most famous > Anguilima). Or the text is talking about this person, ardently > practise and attain deathless. Sukin: It is not about how rare or common, in fact it is not about anyone at all. But about understanding conditions. > S: I don't think anything else can hinder satipatthana. > > K: You are very wrong, it is not just wrong view that hinder > satipatthana. It is akusala that hinder satipatthana. Wrong view is > only when we think there is am I that is practising the path? Sukin: Let me qualify my statement a bit. Firstly, I think we both are approaching the idea of hindrance from different perspective. You are probably talking about being `willfully' indulgent in akusala; that this goes against the very idea of developing wholesome states. I agree with this. But I am talking about `being' in situations, by conditions (strong habits, etc), that no state of mind which arises, cannot be known to a person with panna of the appropriate level. This means that it is only the lack of understanding of what satipatthana is and about conditionality, which can hinder any arising of panna. For someone who does not accept the Buddha's teachings, no matter how much sila he has, he can never develop panna of the vippasana kind. Now you may say, that for a person who has weak panna, how such a person can expect to have satipatthana arise in any given situation? True! But I don't think it is a question of `avoiding situations' and deciding as a consequent, to reflect more on dhamma or whatever. I think it still must be about Right View. If one does not understand that everything is conditioned and has even a slight idea of being able to control situations, this can be a hindrance. On the other hand if one accepts that every dhamma can be known (even if only a handful will ever be known), then there is no place and no time where sati and panna cannot arise, provided of course, that he is not willfully negligent with any wrong idea about consequence. If he accepts the fact that akusala leads to akusala results and kusala leads to kusala results, then this itself can be a condition for less and less tendency to the former and a bending toward the latter. He must know at the same time about how at this very moment, ignorance and wrong view can lead us to all sorts of wrong ideas about kusala actions, and lobha can attach to the results which condition further ignorance and wrong view. There are many, many other aspects of dhamma to consider which would lead one along the correct path, and there are many more which lead us in other directions. And I still maintain, that it all hinges upon Right View/Wrong View. Got to go, my kids are getting impatient. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 31270 From: Norman Joseph Smith Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Re: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, Hi Christine and all Hope you are well and happy. > I found these two excerpts a little unsettling. Views and Conceit. sad to hear. > I agree that arguing and disputing is not to be encouraged, happy to hear. > but how > is one to find Truth without discussion - which often leads to debate? good question, I think. > metta and peace, > Christine and to you, pls see response below > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > § 2.12. > When dwelling on views > as "supreme," > a person makes them > the utmost thing > in the world, > &, from that, calls > all others inferior > and so he's not free > from disputes. This links to the another teaching: (Extract from my book:) "If a person has a conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bhaaradvaaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth, but it is not yet an awakening to the truth" M 95 : M ii 171 I understand this to mean, one needs to watch [be mindful/aware of] one's speech and avoid absolute statements, such as, "I am, he is, it is..." but rather express accurately each of one's view/conviction/belief with a qualifying statement such as "I think... I believe... It seems to me..." etc. There are so many variants that we use in everyday speech, but not very often because we are talking our view as truth, or if we know about the teaching we give lame excuses not to practice it, such as "everything I say is only my view, so I don't need to do that [practice the Buddha is giving]". Listening to my speech has helped me avoid many arguments, yet be able to express my views clearly. It has also enabled me to listen to others express their views and know when they are not doing so. In the latter case I can then know that it is probably not a good time to discuss. They are not in the right headspace, mindfulness of speech and non-clinging to views is not well developed. When one just sees one's views as such, one can discuss them and would be willing to change them. Not so if one sees one's views as the truth. This forming of views and clinging to them as truth is based in the view about oneself, identity view, "I am [not]...". If one does this, one will naturally extend it to others. Therefore below there is mention of "I am inferior, equal, superior". The Buddha taught not to think like this, but just to see the five clinging components as they are, e.g. "this is anger" rather than "I am angry" [sankhaara-upaadaana-khandha]. "I believe this" rather than "this is the truth" [sankhaara-upaadaana-khandha]. "I do these practices" rather than "I am a Buddhist" [sannyyaa-upaadaana- khandha]. One of the problems in communication with the last one is, the person spoken to may have the strangest ideas [stereotypes] of what a Buddhist is. :-) > When he sees his advantage > in what's seen, heard, sensed, > or in precepts & practices, > seizing it there > he sees all else > as inferior. > That, too, say the skilled, > is a binding knot: that > in dependence on which > you regard another > as inferior. > So a monk shouldn't be dependent > on what's seen, heard, or sensed, > or on precepts & practices; > nor should he conjure a view in the world > in connection with knowledge > or precepts & practices; > shouldn't take himself > to be "equal"; > shouldn't think himself > inferior or superlative. > > > [Sn IV.5] > > > § 2.13. > Whoever construes > 'equal,' > 'superior,' or > 'inferior,' > by that he'd dispute; > whereas to one unaffected > by these three, > 'equal,' > 'superior,' > do not occur. > Of what would the brahman say 'true' > or 'false,' > disputing with whom: > he in whom 'equal,' 'unequal' are not. > > Having abandoned home, > living free from society, > the sage > in villages > creates no intimacies. > Rid of sensual passions, free > from yearning, > he wouldn't engage with people > in quarrelsome debate. > > Those things > aloof from which > he should go about in the world: > the great one > wouldn't take them up > & argue for them. > > As the prickly lotus > is unsmeared by water & mud, > so the sage, > an exponent of peace, > without greed, > is unsmeared by sensuality & > the world. > > An attainer-of-wisdom isn't measured > made proud > by views or > by what is thought, > for he isn't affected by them. > He wouldn't be led > by action, learning; > doesn't reach a conclusion > in any entrenchments. > > For one dispassionate toward perception > there are no ties; > for one released by discernment, > no > delusions. > Those who grasp at perceptions & views > go about butting their heads > in the world. [Sn IV.9] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31271 From: Norman Joseph Smith Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Hi again I realise I didn't close off in my last post. Peace and good health Jou 31272 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:46pm Subject: BB1 - intro Dear Friends, As I mentioned, I received a reply from Bhikkhu Bodhi yesterday in response to a note I’d sent a couple of days earlier, offering some assistance. At the same time I forwarded a Qu from RobM and a couple of links to recent posts, including the reference in the notes that Larry has raised a couple of times concerning space (akasa) not being a paramattha dhamma. On these dhamma points, I’ll put the responses in separate posts for clarity or further discussion. If anyone has any comments or questions they’d particularly like to be addressed to him, please just post them on list as usual with a comment to this effect and I’m happy to make sure they are brought to his attention. Someone just mentioned to me off-list that they wished to discuss some translation comments with him. Again, I’ve been asked not to pass on his direct contact details, so please just share with us all and I’ll make sure he sees these too, without his feeling under any obligation to respond. As he has serious health concerns (in spite of some symptomatic relief from recent medication prescribed by Michigan Headpain Institute at Ann Arbor), and as he’s extremely busy with his translation and other work, I usually try to wait for an appropriate time and when there are several points to raise together. So please be patient for any response. Briefly, on the question of the Anguattara Nikaya translation, he mentioned that he’s recently been very busy, but has made ‘substantial progress’ on a sutta anthology for Wisdom Publications, based on the four Nikayas. He just needs to revise these and write his own commentary to ‘thread the selections together’. After this, he hopes to resume work on the Anguttara Nikaya. Metta, Sarah ===== 31273 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:55pm Subject: BB2 - RobM -Kamma Dear RobM & All, I sent the following to B.Bodhi: >RobM: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26057 ..... Rob Moult also wrote this (off-list) to me: >Hi Sarah/Jon I would be interested in B.Bodhi’s view on kamma produced if all of the conditions for kamma-patha are not fulfilled. Specifically, I understand that completed kamma (kamma-patha) has enough power to condition rebirth linking, but is kamma-patha a requirement for any kamma to be created? Metta RobM :-)< *********< ***** B.Bodhi's response: BB: >In my understanding, according to the Abhidhamma commentaries, if one produces all the conditions for a kamma-patha but the intended action is not fulfilled, one will still generate kamma, but the kamma will not be as powerful as the corresponding kamma-patha of the same type. I believe the Abhidhamma commentaries hold that the kamma will not be capable of generating a rebirth-linking of the type that the corresponding kamma-patha would generate. This seems intuitively correct, but I am not certain that it could not generate rebirth-linking at all. To give an example, if someone, on repeated occasions, attempts to commit murder, but on each occasion succeeds only in mutilating his victims, it is clear that he could not generate the type of rebirth-linking that an act of murder would generate. But as his consciousness has been infected by acts of volition intending to kill others, it would seem to me that these intentions to kill, though they accomplish only the wounding of their victims, would still constitute powerful enough unwholesome kamma to be capable of producing an unfortunate rebirth. Because these intentions do come to expression in bodily action, they would be much more powerful than mental states of byapada (ill will), the wish for the harm of others, which constitutes the ninth akusala kamma-patha, a purely mental type. One could extend this example from intended acts of murder that fail to accomplish their aim to other intended akusala kamma-pathas that fail: the prospective thief who repeatedly fails to pull off his theft, the would-be adulterer who fails to seduce the wives of others; the slanderer who fails to divide close friends, etc. So I would hesitate to take the kamma-pathas in too rigid a sense as being the only types of action that can generate rebirth. I would see them, rather, simply as the principal types of unwholesome actions. In this respect, my understanding may differ from the Abhidhamma commentaries (I'm not sure of this), but I think it accords well with the Suttanta usage of the concept.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 31274 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:58pm Subject: BB3 - Luminosity Dear Nina, I gave B.Bodhi the link to this post of yours in the continuing luminosity saga: >Nina's post on luminosity: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26048 ***** B.Bodhis's response: >But I regard the Abhidhamma Pitaka as being later than the four Nikayas and the core texts of the Khuddaka Nikaya (Dhpada, Sutta-nipata, most of Thera-therigatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, etc.), and the Abhidhamma commentaries as being "considerably later," so I would still stand by my statement.< ********* Metta, Sarah ====== 31275 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:04pm Subject: BB4 - Space Dear Larry & All, Sarah wrote: >While I’m writing, we’re also discussing space (akasa rupa) in detail and questioning a comment in CMA: (links to some recent posts on space): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31140 ..... BB: >I'm not at all sure. This requires further investigation. I must have had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary). I'll have to check up on this.< .... Sarah: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31123 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31122 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31121 .... BB:>Of course, any further comments you care to make would be greatly appreciated. In Karunadasa’s article on Time and Space, I also believe there may be errors in his treatment on space in this regard. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi< ..... Metta, Sarah ====== 31276 From: Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Sarah, I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said otherwise in a previous email. Larry --------------------- BB: "...I must have had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space 31277 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin > Sukin: :-) Sorry to drag you into the merry-go-round. k: Hey Sukin, it always an honour to talk to you, just that you have to forgive this barking terrier and could be quite cynical at times. Come to think about this barking terrier, it is full of conceit ;-). > Sukin: Yes, if one is `hoping', then it is quite unlikely that it > will happen, but is anyone talking about hope? Isn't it all about > the complexity of conditions and hence impossibility to know what > will be conditioned to arise, when? k: the issue is not when, is Today, the effort must be made, for tomorrow death may come, who knows? No bargain with Motarlity, can keep him and his hordes away. Two beautiful sentence that I got from Sutta on A Single Excellent Night (MN 131). Definitely we are talking exertion of conditions and not purposedly go and be holy. When the danger of akusala is know, exertion will naturally arise. > Sukin: Yes, if there are conditions, anything can happen. k: Sukin, anything can happen is a fallacy. Because we know the equations that kusala conditions kusala, likewise vice versa. Dont leave satipatthana to mere jackpot. > > k: No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect > > and consider dhamma more. > Sukin: But doesn't this sound like a rule? ;-) k: That is not a rule, that is something Buddha tell us to do ;-) > Sukin: To read, ponder and memorise, isn't this also conditioned? > And to do this, did panna come out of thin air? ;-) k: Yes all are conditioned but why leave all to chance ;-). If you dont even ponder dhamma or reflect them, and you expect that panna will grow. Fat hope! > Sukin: It is not about how rare or common, in fact it is not about > anyone at all. But about understanding conditions. k: Understanding conditions does not imply don't do anything. It implies there is no way a self can do to perceive a not-self. The only way is to consider dhamma, reflect, ponder etc. Then when panna knows the danger of aksuala, effort will arise naturally. > If one does not understand that everything is conditioned and has > even a slight idea of being able to control situations, this can be > a hindrance. On the other hand if one accepts that every dhamma can > be known (even if only a handful will ever be known), then there is > no place and no time where sati and panna cannot arise, provided of > course, that he is not willfully negligent with any wrong idea > about consequence. If he accepts the fact that akusala leads to akusala results and kusala leads to kusala results, then this itself can be a condition for less and less tendency to the former and a bending toward the latter. He must know at the same time about how at this very moment, ignorance and wrong view can lead us to all sorts of wrong ideas about kusala actions, and lobha can attach to the > results which condition further ignorance and wrong view. There are > many, many other aspects of dhamma to consider which would lead one > along the correct path, and there are many more which lead us in > other directions. And I still maintain, that it all hinges upon > Right View/Wrong View. k: To sum it all up. Right Understanding (sounds fimiliar ;-) ). Because right understanding conditions right effort etc. There are I think different level of right understanding and that is a very intelligent answer to all dhamma questions. Ken O 31278 From: Sarah Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said > otherwise in a previous email. > > Larry > --------------------- > BB: "...I must have > had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata > Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." .... S: It says on the title page that the "introduction and explanatory guide' are by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. I'm sure B.Bodhi was responsible for the final editing and so on, but in his preface before the intro, he explains why he relied a lot on the assistance of Ven Rewata Dhamma. .... > ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space .... S: Oh well, we should be grateful for these 'idiosyncratic' fusses as they prompt us all to consider in greater depth;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31279 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:32pm Subject: Re: Views & Conceit-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.12-13 Hello Jou, Thanks for your reply - it contains many good reminders. I wish I had read the reminders earlier today - it may have stopped me getting involved in a pointless exchange of views elsewhere. :-) Nice to see you here. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph Smith" 31280 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard k: It seems that we both have been discussing since ancient times and now we are still discussing it ;-). By the way, I enjoy discussing it with you, because each discussion meant a better understanding of the dhamma. I always very positive about it because it always a gain to me. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Excuse me, but I didn't see a characterization there of what > is to be considered "practising Buddhism." Doret merely said he does way better when his day begins with meditation. > ------------------------------------------- k: Meditation is a not a magic portion or so call energy drink. If we think it is as such, there will be a dependency. On one hand we want to be clingless and signless, then on the other hand, we seems to be drawn to a dependency. I never say one should not practise meditation, I am saying it is wrong when it becomes a dependecy. Practising Buddhism is about now and here. Meditation is every moment if we know it. Because in each moment, understand dhammas as not-self, is consider meditation as the mind must be focus or draw attention onto the object in order to understand not-self. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Did Doret suggest that? Also, that's the Buddha you are > talking about, right? Not Joe Worldling. This is all a red herring, Ken. The Buddha repeatedly encouraged meditation, and Doret has said nothing more than that his meditating serves him well, particularly making an ongoing mindfulness practice more effective for him. What, other than a distaste for meditating, would prompt a > questioning of this? > ------------------------------------------ k: I dont think you will see Buddha talking about practise must be only in meditation to gain enlightement. Then he will not be preach satipatthana, he will not be preaching restraining the six senses. I have no distaste for meditation, I see there is a lot of misunderstanding in meditation. It is a fallacy that just sitting and focusing a simple object, one expect to gain enlightement. Without insight, no enlightment (see Effacement MN 8). It is Dependent Origination that Buddha realise during his enlightment and not meditation - See SN 12. 10 - Gotama the Great Sakyan Sage. So meditation must be known it is a condition not to gain anything, just to understand condition as it comes and goes. Whatever feeling that arise especially the sense of calmness or rapture in meditation must be known as anatta, anicca and dukkha. One must see each conditions (be it kusala or aksuala) the arisen of aggregates is arise by ignorance, by kamma, by craving, by nutriment (for materiality), by contact (for feelings, perception and mental fabrications), by fabrications (for consciouness) likewise the cease of aggregates is the ceasing of ingorance etc.. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What if one thinks there is a need to discuss, or evaluate, > or write letters on e-mail lists, or reply to same, or criticize the form of someone's practice? What if one thinks there is a need to do anything? Isn't that also "falling into the trap of self?" We're all caught in that trap. Thus it would seem that we dare not act in any way at any time! > ---------------------------------------------------- k: Nope it depends what is your starting premises. I have dicuss this with you before. Dont add charcoal to a burning barbecue pit to stop the fire. We let it extinguishes on its own. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > These are mere words, Ken. I agree with them, but that is > just belief. The mind must be trained until it *knows*, and doesn't just believe. As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta commences with that. Quite true, Ken. But, on the street, if ever someone mindlessly or intentionally slams hard into you, especially if s/he does so with evident purposeful enjoyment, does anger not flare? Right there is the sense of self asserting itself, Ken. Believing that there is no self is just opinion. Coming to that belief, while a critical beginning, is no substitute for weakening the sense of self and its effect. The sense of self will be with us for aeons, and it's presence (not Doret's "presence" ;-) should not be taken as a justification for doing nothing. > ---------------------------------------------------- k: Sorry Howard, I said it from real experience because I accidentally knock onto my wife the other day. The realisation it is not me but body consciouness - a sense of detachment rise. The realisation the pain is just not me or I, it is body consciouness that experience the pain, detachment arise. These characteristic can be known right here and now. This is what I advocate, experiencing the moment. Because with right understanding, everything we do afterthat, will be beneficial. With right undestanding, go ahead meditate all you like ;-). k: Satipatthana is a lot of people favourite. I suggest you should look at MN 4 Bhayabherava Sutta - the meaning of a going to a forest. So there was concentration even before one into a forest. What kind of activities produce concentraton, the ten wholesome precepts, the understanding of the five hindrances etc. Then again in MN 17, Jungle Thickets. k: Again walking and drinking with full awareness, awareness of what, awareness "there is the body" - it meant awareness of not-self, anicca of the body and not otherwise. Even a baby will learn how to walk, will be in full awarness of his first step, full awareness is not about knowing the walking or eating, it is about knowing that "there is the body" k: You said doing nothing, then you did not see the discussion I have with Sukin. I advocate listening, reading and considering of dhamma, because only when right understanding arise to see the danger of akusala, then effort will arise. I think I have also discuss with you about convictions also and how it condition effort. And dont see listening is not doing anything, many people have gone forth by just listening or a number of them take refuge (also from many different sect) by just listening. The power of just paying attention to listen to dhamma is unthinkable ;-). Ken O 31281 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yuganaddha Sutta Hi Htoo and Swee Boon I got this link from RobK regarding your questions, it was written by Jon a while ago http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m3905.html Hope this help Ken O 31282 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:07am Subject: 'Aware and able by nature' Nina The phrase 'aware and able by nature' in the Pansadhovaka Sutta translation quoted by Swee Boon caught my eye because it looks so much like the Thai expression 'phuu mii pokati charoen satipatthaan' that we have heard so often, and I have always wondered if it was a translation of something from the texts. The Pali is apparently 'sacetaso bhikkhu dabbajaatiko'. The PTS translation has 'thoughtful, able monk', and quotes the commentary as glossing 'dabba-jaatiko' as 'pa.n.dita-jaatiko' (see A III, 10, 100 at p.231 of GS vol I 'Gold-refiner'). I guess the 'by nature' part comes from 'jaatiko'? (There is also a x-ref to M.i, 114, but I couldn't see anything likely there.) Anyway, I think it must be a reference to a person in whom awareness is well-established. Only then could the awareness be said to occur 'by nature'. Jon --- nidive wrote: > Hi Howard, ... > "In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk -- aware & able by nature -- abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness... 31283 From: robmoult Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:37am Subject: Re: BB2 - RobM -Kamma Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear RobM & All, > > I sent the following to B.Bodhi: > > >RobM: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26057 > ..... > Rob Moult also wrote this (off-list) to me: > > >Hi Sarah/Jon > > I would be interested in B.Bodhi's view on kamma > produced if all of the conditions for kamma-patha are > not fulfilled. Specifically, I understand that > completed kamma (kamma-patha) has enough power to > condition rebirth linking, but is kamma-patha a > requirement for any kamma to be created? > > Metta > RobM :-)< > *********< > ***** > B.Bodhi's response: > > BB: >In my understanding, according to the Abhidhamma commentaries, if one > produces all the conditions for a kamma-patha but the intended action is > not fulfilled, one will still generate kamma, but the kamma will not be as > powerful as the corresponding kamma-patha of the same type. Thanks a million. This and BB's subsequent comments confirm my understanding and, as expected, BB shed light on some areas that I had not considered. Metta, Rob M :-) 31284 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spinning out Pannati Nina, Phil and All I agree with Nina about the value of 'reruns' from the archives. Thanks again, Phil. In case anyone was wondering, the original reference to that wonderful expression 'spinning out pannatti' came from (formerly active) member Bruce some 3+ years ago, in a thread entitled (guess what): "sitting "vs" non-sitting; vitakka, vicara and samatha, pannati and paramattha dhammas". This is what he said: "but why does it *feel* like i'm spinning out so much more panatti when i'm sitting in front of the computer than when i'm sitting attempting samatha bhavana??" As I tried to indicate in my reply at the time, who says pannatti are the problem? Even the arahant thinks and communicates using pannatti. There will never be a time when that's not going on! Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Philip, > I enjoy these reminders in old posts you send now and then and also > your > added remarks. I need such reminders about spinning out concepts. > Appreciating this, thank you. ... 31285 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:12am Subject: Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.14-15 Dear Group, These two sutta excerpts are about the fetters of conceit, restlessness, and anxiety. I wonder what Sariputta is experiencing if he is not experiencing sorrow when he says "Still, I would have this thought ..." Why is conceit involved in sorrow? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- § 2.14. Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, just now as I was withdrawn in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'Is there anything in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'There is nothing in the world with whose change or alteration there would arise within me sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.'" When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher would there arise within you no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair?" "Even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, my friend, there would arise within me no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine beings.'" "Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair." [SN XXI.2] § 2.15. Then Ven. Anuruddha went to where Ven. Sariputta was staying and, on arrival, greeted him courteously. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta: By means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human, I see the thousand-fold cosmos. My persistence is aroused & unsluggish. My mindfulness is established & unshaken. My body is calm & unaroused. My mind is concentrated into singleness. And yet my mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Sariputta: My friend, when the thought occurs to you, 'By means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human, I see the thousand- fold cosmos,' that is related to your conceit. When the thought occurs to you, 'My persistence is aroused & unsluggish. My mindfulness is established & unshaken. My body is calm & unperturbed. My mind is concentrated into singleness,' that is related to your restlessness. When the thought occurs to you, 'And yet my mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance,' that is related to your anxiety. It would be well if -- abandoning these three qualities, not attending to these three qualities -- you directed your mind to the Deathless property.' So after that, Ven. Anuruddha -- abandoning those three qualities, not attending to those three qualities -- directed his mind to the Deathless property. Dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus Ven. Anuruddha became another one of the Arahants. [AN III.128] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31286 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard (Ken and Doret), You wrote to Ken O: ---------------------------- > As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta commences with that. > ---------------------------- I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal meditation: "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the Arousing of Mindfulness. Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken. From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non- opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject of meditation. http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBody.htm#Breathing Kind regards, Ken H 31287 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not so short hello, from Jou Ex: RE: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Hi Jou, S: Thank you very much for posting your 'not so short hello' which I found most interesting;-). I’m sure you’ll have a lot to contribute here and hope you find other posts useful as well. --- "Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith" wrote: > In 1986, >I got involved with Buddhism. Towards the end of that year I > ordained as a Theravaadin monk, which I continued for six years till > March 1993. Three of those six years were in intensive Vipassanaa > meditation in South East Asia. Since then I have been living as a layman > in Australia. I have nearly finished a Bachelor of Arts degree at the > University of Queensland in which I majored in Buddhism and Chinese. In > my Buddhist major I studied Paali, Sanskrit and Buddhist Chinese. .... S: As you’re probably aware, Queensland is well represented here;-). Were you ordained in Thailand? Do you live in Brisbane? .... <....> > I try to apply the 4 Great Authorities and the Kalaama Sutta in my study > and practice. Since all conditioned things are impermanent, I accept > that even in the 4 Nikaaya and Vinaya there will be texts that are not > [according to] the Buddha's teaching. The challenge is to identify what > would be corruptions, this means I have to be willing to question my > assumptions and cherished [clung to] interpretations of the Buddha's > teaching. .... S: Another way to look at it might be to consider carefully those aspects which appear to be corruptions, to cross-check, consider, read the commentaries and to again question one’s ‘assumptions and cherished interpretations’ in this regard too. ... <...> > The Sutta and Vinaya texts are what I focus on, not the Abhidhamma and > the commentaries. That is because I wish to focus on that which is > generally not doubted to be the Word of the Buddha, for it is his > teaching I am interested in. I look for those who want to focus on his > teaching, not other's understandings or interpretations of it. From the > home page I understand that this group is interested in "the Buddha's > teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original > record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further > elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition". So I am not > sure if this group is for me. Please let me know. .... S: I think that anyone can focus on any aspect of the Tipitaka or Pali commentaries here that they like. You will find yourself in good company and I’m sure those of us who have full confidence and respect for the Abhidhamma and commentaries are in a minority here. On the other hand, we just ask everyone to respect the homepage description and details in the guidelines on this, regardless of whether they agree with them or not;-). After all, it’s rare to find a space where they can be carefully considered in depth as we do here, such as in the Visuddhimagga thread which you’ll probably want to skip. There have been many, many discussions here on the authenticity of the Abhidhamma and commentaries as being included in Buddha-vacana. You may (or may not;-)) like to look at a few selected posts from the archives(by the mods) under the following subjects in the archives one rainy Qld day: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts - Abhidhamma -origins - Commentaries - Buddha-vacana - Dhamma-Vinaya - Vinaya - introduction (Bahiranidana) .... > I only read the emails via the web when I have some spare time. So I ask > people to CC me personally when replying to a post of mine, so I know to > come back to the group to reply. .... S: I’ve been asked to do this for a few people, but I’m afraid I always forget, so pls keep an eye on the list as well. One suggestion I give people who only look occasionally, is to key in a name or other word in the back-up posts on escribe which has a good search function. (But, I think ‘Jou’ is too short for this). http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ .... > Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from .... S: Many thanks for all the other detail reluctantly snipped (we’re tough on trimming too;-)) and for the goodwill. I look forward to your contributions. Best wishes for your book too. Metta, Sarah p.s I was glad to see your contribution to Christine’s thread as well. ====== 31288 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Nina and Howard Nina, I was interested to read in the passage quoted from Ledi Sayadaw the terms paccaya-ghatanaa (synchrony of relations), sa-paccayaa (related to causes), and paticcasamupannaa (arising from a conjuncture of circumstances), all of which are new to me. Are these from the Tipitaka or commentaries, do you know? Howard, I am puzzled by your statement that 'All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from attributes', and would like to hear more about what it means exactly, where it comes from, and how it relates to the teaching on dependent arising. The typical formulation of the links of DA is in the form 'Dependent on A, B comes to be', where A and B are phenomena/dhammas of one kind or another. What is not stated expressly in the formulation as contained in the suttas is the nature of the 'dependency' in question. As we know, a dependency can take many forms. So to be meaningful, the formulation of the links needs to be understood as something like this: - Dependent on A as condition by way of X, B comes to be, or - A conditions B by way of X condition, where 'X' is the nature of the relationship of dependency between the 2 phenomena/dhammas. Now to say that A and B are conditions and not dhammas doesn't seem to make sense in this context. Looking forward to your further comments. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > You wrote: > H: Another problem with the matter versus material-attribute > distinction > > is that it cannot be maintained. All phenomena are merely > conditions, and > > there is no consistent way of distinguishing conditions from > attributes. > N: Conditions. Good reminder. Again, I can say about myself: I am > like a > parrot, repeating texts without applying them in my life. > Personally many details help me to understand at least > theoretically the > three characteristics. I am delighted with all details given in the > Visuddhimagga, for examples about rupas we study now. (I do not > expect > others to be equally delighted:-)) Rob K likes to quote texts about > the need > of details for deluded people. The Buddha taught more details to > the extent > people were more deluded. ... 31289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 13-03-2004 01:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > What sort of reality is a rupa group? If it is a paramattha dhamma, what > is its distinguishing characteristic (sabhava)? N: A group *consists* of paramattha dhammas. Learning more details about groups helps us to have a deeper understanding of the conditions for the rupas and of the intricate way these conditions operate. We are reminded that these rupas do not belong to us. This is a good foundation for satipatthana. After all we do not study these matters out of an academic interest. When there is awareness of realities we do not have to think of groups. L: Are cetasikas classified as groups? N: Yes. The universals arising with each citta, the particulars, arising with many but not with all, the sobhana cetasikas, the akusala cetasikas, These are the main classifications, but there are more. L: Is it correct that space and the lightness triad characterize only groups, not individual rupas such as hardness or visible data? N: Space surrounds each group, delimitating them. It is real. The lightness triad pertains to some groups, not to those originated by kamma. Although they are not concrete matter, but rupas of changability, they are still reckoned as arising in such or such group. As to hardness or visible data these always arise in groups, in each group. Thus also in the groups with the lightness triad originated by citta, temperature and nutirtion. The word characterize may create confusion. L: Below is a list of rupa groups. Are there more? N: When we classify by way of octads, nonads, etc. we have to mention by which of the four factors they are originated. I wll not give a complete list, but I can add a few details from the Thai . L: 8 inseparables: earth, wind, fire, air, color, smell, taste, nutritive > essence. N: Originated from citta, temperature or nutrition. L: 8 + life faculty N: nonad. By kamma. Or, 8 + sound, sound nonad. See below, of the body or outside rupa. L: 8 + bodily intimation N: By citta L: 8 + life + eye base, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or female > faculty, or male faculty, or heart base N: by kamma. L: 8 + vocal intimation + sound N: by citta. L: 8 + lightness triad (lightness, malleability, wieldiness) N: by citta, temperature or nutrition. These are necessary for the postures and normal movement of the body. Those originated from all three support one another, they need each other. L: 8 + lightness triad + bodily intimation N: by citta. L: 8 + lightness triad + vocal intimation + sound N: by citta Now a few details from Dhamma Issues: < The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. This group of rúpas originate from the citta which conditions the assuming of different postures and the natural movement of the body, without the intention to convey a specific meaning. The dodecad of bodily intimation, kåyaviññatti, and lightness, a group of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, rúpas of changeability, and bodily intimation. This group of rúpas originates from citta which wants to convey a meaning by way of bodily motion that is special, capable of expressing that meaning. 6. The tridecad of speech intimation, vacíviññatti, sound and lightness, a group of thirteen rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas, sound and speech intimation. This group of rúpas originates from the citta which intends to cause the arising of a specific sound which is dependent on the vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability. That sound can arise on the sound-base when one intends to produce a special sound, such as in the case of singing or speaking. The sound nonad, a group of nine rúpas: the eight inseparable rúpas and sound. This is sound which does not originate from citta. It can arise with rúpas which are dead matter and with rúpas of the body. The undecad of lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas, the rúpas of changeability, namely: lightness, lahutå, plasticity, mudutå, and wieldiness, kammaññatå. These three rúpas can be the condition for bodily movement when citta intends to cause such movement [7]. The dodecad of sound and lightness, a group consisting of twelve rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas, the three vikåra rúpas and sound. These rúpas are produced by temperature when sound arises together with these vikåra rúpas [8] . There are two groups of rupas originating from nutrition: 1. The pure octad, consisting of only the eight inseparable rúpas. 2. The undecad with lightness, lahutå, a group of eleven rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas and the three vikåra rúpas. Apart from the factors of citta and temperature, the three vikåra rúpas can originate also from the factor of nutrition. If there are only vikåra rúpas originating from temperature but nutrition is lacking, the vikåra rúpas do not have enough strength to condition supple and fast movement of the body. Footnotes 7. Even if citta intends to produce rúpa in order to move the limbs, it cannot do so if there are not also vikåra rúpas conditioned by the right temperature. The three factors of citta, temperature and nutrition each produce groups of rúpa that include the vikåra rúpas. These three groups support one another. See ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas², Appendix to Rúpa, by Acharn Suijn. 8. When there is sound by snapping the fingers or applauding, vikåra rúpas arise together with sound. See Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, Appendix to Rúpa.> N: Remarks: we see the significance of the lightness triad for speech intimation when a special sound is produced, such as singing. We also see how important the three factors originating the triad are, how they support each other. When we are without food or drink for a long time it is very hard to have articulate speech. I could prove this when traveling in India. We can verify all these facts as taught in the Abhidhamma. They pertain to daily life. Nina. 31290 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning .just dhammas Dear Icaro, op 13-03-2004 13:23 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > >> k: If you think that is aksuala, you will have stop. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Icaro: Not necessarily. By the way, Akusala Dhammas are Dhammas - and > here lies the pañña: separating the subtile from the coarse matters. > Cf. the initial chapter of Dhammasangani "Mattika". N: Thanks for the reminder. We cannot be reminded enough that our life is just: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyaakata (indeterminate) dhamma. In Bgk we were reminded by A. Sujin all the time: everything is dhamma. Here we are with lobha, dosa and moha, we are worried about the sickness of others, we have many problems in life regarding our work or our relationship with others. We are spinning out stories and on account of these stories moments of happiness and misery alternate. When it is time to depart from this life all these stories will be forgotten. Where is "our important personality"? There are only dhammas just lasting for a moment and then gone. We ourselves and others are only dhammas. Nina. 31291 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi, Larry and Sarah - In a message dated 3/14/04 12:19:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said > otherwise in a previous email. > > Larry > --------------------- > BB: "...I must have > had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata > Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." > > ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space > ============================ Heh, heh, heh! Did you utter the sacred name, Larry? ;-)) I think that there are actual relations among rupic phenomena/events, among which are so-called spatial relations. We do not create our perceptions of "adjacent", "near", "far", "in front of", "surrounding", "enclosing" etc out of whole cloth. However, seeing these as more than just relations, and reifying - creating the notion of a thing called "space", is just one more instance of our tendency towards defiled conceptualization. I think there are temporal relations as well, but no thing that is "time". Temporal relations, however, are more problematical than spatial ones, because one normally wants related things to coexist, but that is exactly what is *not* the case when one event precedes another! So I see "time" as a shakier notion than that of "space". As I consider the matter, I think that to make sense of precedence and succession, the events related need to involve an observed phenomenon (i.e., the "present event") and the memory of a phenomenon (i.e., the "past event") or perhaps a thought of a projected event (i.e., the "future event"). The cognizing of temporal relations seems to involve greater conceptual involvement, greater indirection, than the cognizing of spatial relations. In that sense, "space" is more real than "time", at least as we usually think of time. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31292 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi, Sarah (and Larry) - In a message dated 3/14/04 1:55:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Larry, > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: >Hi Sarah, > > > >I guess B. Bodhi did write the "Guide" in CMA. I had thought he said > >otherwise in a previous email. > > > >Larry > >--------------------- > >BB: "...I must have > >had some source for my statement (unless it came from Ven. U Rewata > >Dhamma and I just incorporated it into my commentary)..." > .... > S: It says on the title page that the "introduction and explanatory guide' > are by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi. I'm sure B.Bodhi was responsible > for the final editing and so on, but in his preface before the intro, he > explains why he relied a lot on the assistance of Ven Rewata Dhamma. > .... > >ps: btw it's Howard who is making all the fuss about space > .... > S: Oh well, we should be grateful for these 'idiosyncratic' fusses as they > prompt us all to consider in greater depth;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah =============================== Please see my reply to Larry's last post on this thread. It is yet another adventure in Idiosyncratism (my new religion)! ;-)) With metta Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31293 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/14/04 2:51:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > k: It seems that we both have been discussing since ancient times and > now we are still discussing it ;-). By the way, I enjoy discussing > it with you, because each discussion meant a better understanding of > the dhamma. I always very positive about it because it always a gain > to me. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a very kind and welcoming response, Ken. Thank you! And, BTW, I concur. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Excuse me, but I didn't see a characterization there of what > >is to be considered "practising Buddhism." Doret merely said he > does way better when his day begins with meditation. > >------------------------------------------- > > k: Meditation is a not a magic portion or so call energy drink. If > we think it is as such, there will be a dependency. On one hand we > want to be clingless and signless, then on the other hand, we seems > to be drawn to a dependency. I never say one should not practise > meditation, I am saying it is wrong when it becomes a dependecy. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a point well taken! Guarding the senses should apply to all matters, including our inclinations with regard to aspects of Dhamma practice. --------------------------------------------------- > Practising Buddhism is about now and here. Meditation is every > moment if we know it. Because in each moment, understand dhammas as > not-self, is consider meditation as the mind must be focus or draw > attention onto the object in order to understand not-self. > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Did Doret suggest that? Also, that's the Buddha you are > >talking about, right? Not Joe Worldling. This is all a red > herring, Ken. The Buddha repeatedly encouraged meditation, and Doret > has said nothing more than that his meditating serves him well, > particularly making an ongoing mindfulness practice more effective > for him. What, other than a distaste for meditating, would prompt a > >questioning of this? > >------------------------------------------ > > k: I dont think you will see Buddha talking about practise must be > only in meditation to gain enlightement. Then he will not be preach> > satipatthana, he will not be preaching restraining the six senses. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with this, though I include ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times to be a part of meditation practice. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31294 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/14/04 5:36:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (Ken and Doret), > > > You wrote to Ken O: > ---------------------------- > > As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta > commences with that. > > ---------------------------- > > I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the > commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal > meditation: > > > "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this > matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when > they move on that they are moving. But this instruction on the modes > of deportment was not given concerning similar awareness, because > awareness of that sort belonging to animals does not shed the belief > in a living being, does not knock out the percept of a soul, and > neither becomes a subject of meditation nor the development of the > Arousing of Mindfulness. > > Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of > moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic > qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down, > too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the > particular sense of knowledge of the (true) characteristic > qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the > general sense of awareness is to be taken. > From the sort of mere awareness denoted by reference to canines and > the like, proceeds the idea of a soul, the perverted perception, > with the belief that there is a doer and an experiencer. One who > does not uproot or remove that wrong perception owing to non- > opposition to that perception and to absence of contemplative > practice cannot be called one who develops anything like a subject > of meditation. > http://www.abhidhamma.org/CommentaryBody.htm#Breathing > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ========================= The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing that, Ken. Note that I said that thew sutta *commences* with formal meditation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31295 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi, Jon (and Nina) - In a message dated 3/14/04 8:28:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Nina and Howard > > Nina, I was interested to read in the passage quoted from Ledi > Sayadaw the terms paccaya-ghatanaa (synchrony of relations), > sa-paccayaa (related to causes), and paticcasamupannaa (arising from > a conjuncture of circumstances), all of which are new to me. Are > these from the Tipitaka or commentaries, do you know? > > Howard, I am puzzled by your statement that 'All phenomena are merely > conditions, and there is no consistent way of distinguishing > conditions from attributes', and would like to hear more about what > it means exactly, where it comes from, and how it relates to the > teaching on dependent arising. > > The typical formulation of the links of DA is in the form 'Dependent > on A, B comes to be', where A and B are phenomena/dhammas of one kind > or another. What is not stated expressly in the formulation as > contained in the suttas is the nature of the 'dependency' in > question. As we know, a dependency can take many forms. > > So to be meaningful, the formulation of the links needs to be > understood as something like this: > - Dependent on A as condition by way of X, B comes to be, or > - A conditions B by way of X condition, > where 'X' is the nature of the relationship of dependency between the > 2 phenomena/dhammas. > > Now to say that A and B are conditions and not dhammas doesn't seem > to make sense in this context. > > Looking forward to your further comments. > > Jon > ========================= I wasn't relating this issue to dependent origination. My point was merely that each actual dhamma is a single condition, itself, and not some "thing" that satisfies various conditions. Nina's statement " The dhammas themselves are not different from the quality they possess. In fact the Atthasalini says that 'there is no other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly what I had in mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31296 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Dhamma Friends, The following message contains many flaws. Please see the next message for clarification. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > I have found no evidence in the discourses of the Buddha (sutta pitaka) to > support a belief that the Buddha taught two "paths" or "techniques" which are > commonly understood as the 'moist' absorption (jhana) path and the 'dry' insight > (vipassana) path. It is clear to me that the Buddha taught neither absorption > nor insight as distinct practice paths. They are simply the attainments that > one arrives at through the single practice regimen of right mindfulness > (sama-sati), which leads to right meditation (sama-samadhi), which are the 7th and > 8th folds of the Noble Eight Fold Path. > > Through experience it has become clear that insight and absorption are simply > two sides of the same coin. One who has absorption has insight, one who has > insight has absorption. I have found there is no insight without absorption, > and there is no absorption without insight. Insight (vipassana) is simply the > other side of the coin from absorption (jhana). These are simply different > aspects of the same thing. > > There is a common Hindu metaphor for these two aspects of absorption, it is > the fire metaphor. Fire has two properties, one is to produce heat, and the > other is to produce light. The same is true of absorption (samadhi), It produces > both ecstasy (jhana), and insight (vipassana). One does not come without the > other. > > This confusion in a belief in different "paths" I believe lies in an > assumption that the Buddha was teaching 2 or four distinct practice regimen, however > there is no clear evidence to support this belief in the discourses of the > Buddha (Sutta Pitaka). > > The Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41, is often sited as evidence in support of four > distinct practice paths, because it speaks of the four products or fruits of the > path. However this sutta certainly does not clearly state that there are four > "paths" nor is there any other place in the discourses of the Buddha that > clearly state there are two or four practice paths. The name of the Sutta is the > Samadhi Sutta, not the "Four Paths Sutta." Therefore I believe it is > reasonable to say this sutta is simply speaking of the four fruits that are a product > of the single practice of mindfulness (sati). > > I believe this sutta is simply trying to express the four results, or fruits, > or products of the attainment of right absorption (sama-samadhi). And, I > believe the confusion lies in a belief that the Buddha was speaking of different > practice paths, however it is clear to me that he was not. These 4 descriptions > must be the four results of the single attainment of right absorption > (sama-samadhi). > > How can we know that he was speaking of four results of the same practice > path? Because first of all the Sati suttas only speak of a single practice path, > which is based upon the Four Corner Stones of mindfulness. That is mindfulness > of the Breath, Body, Senses and Mind. The result of right mindfulness > (sama-sati) is absorption (sama-samadhi). Absorption simply has four characteristics: > mindfulness (sati); ecstasy (piiti) and joy (sukha), or what the Buddha > called "a pleasant abiding in the here and now (jhana);" insight into seeing things > as they are (vipassana); and knowledge & vision, which are the supramundane, > or psychic abilities (lokuttara balani). > > How one can know there are four fruits from the single practice regimen of > Satipatthana is through the attainment of right absorption (sama- samadhi). It is > through attainment that we can find out for certain if there are four fruits > or four paths. All one need do is practice Satipatthana to its fruition in > right absorption (sama-samadhi), and one will find out whether there are four > fruits to the practice or not. I practiced Satipatthana to its fruition in right > absorption (sama-samadhi), and I found that without seeking these separate > fruits or attainments they have come to me purely as a consequence of the > dedicated practice of mindfulness (sati). > > In conclusion I believe it is reasonable to say the practice of concentration > (Satipatthana) leads to mindfulness (Sati), which leads to absorption > (samadhi) which leads to four fruits of the practice of Satipatthana, mindfulness > (sati), ecstasy (jhana), insight (vipassana), and knowledge & vision, which are > the supramundane abilities (lokuttara balani). > > > Samadhi Sutta, AN IV.41 > Thanissaro Bhikkhu's version is at this URL: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html > > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration (samadhi). Which > four? There is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana). There is the > development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to > the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). There is the > development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to > mindfulness & alertness (sati). There is the development of concentration (samadhi) > that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now (jhana)? There is the > case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from > unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first absorption (jhana): ecstasy & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by applied and sustained > {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}. With the stilling of applied and sustained > {concentration (vitakka and vicára)}, he enters & remains in the second absorption > (jhana): ecstasy & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from > applied and sustained {concentration (vitakka and vicára)} -- internal > assurance. With the fading of ecstasy he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and > physically sensitive to bliss (piiti). He enters & remains in the third > absorption (jhana), of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a > pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the > earlier disappearance of elation & anxiety -- he enters & remains in the fourth > absorption (jhana): purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor > pain. This is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani)? > There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is > resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the > same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & > unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of > concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of > knowledge & vision (lokuttara balani). > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati)? There is the case where > feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as > they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, > known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they > persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration > (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness (sati). > > "And what is the development of concentration (samadhi) that, when developed > & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a > monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five > clinging-aggregates (cognition): 'Such is form, such its origination, such its > passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are > fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such > its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of > concentration (samadhi) that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents. > > "These are the four developments of concentration. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/files/ > > Best regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31297 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:07am Subject: The 4 fruits of NEP, Samadhi sutta, Yuganaddha sutta, Jhana & Vipassana Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha was asked to preach dhamma by Sahampati Brahma. 2 months after His 35th birth day, that is on the full moon day of the 4th month of Buddha calendar, The Buddha preached His very first discourse called Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. The Buddha clearly stated that 2 extremes have to be avoided and there is the middle way called majjhimapatipada. That middle way is composed of eight parts and this is famously known as Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). The components are 1. samma ditthi ( right view ) 2. samma sankappa ( right thought ) 3. samma kammanta ( right action ) 4. samma vaca ( right speech ) 5. samma ajiva ( right livelihood ) 6. samma vayama ( right effort ) 7. samma sati ( right mindfulness ) 8. samma samadhi ( right concentration ) Here ' samma ' means right, appropriate, true, genuine, decent. It is not 'sama'. 'Sama' means mix, disparse, entangle. To attain arahatta magga nana, everyone has to walk on this single way. Everyone has to follow this single way. Everyone has to practise this single way called Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ) which is the middle way or majjhimapatiada. Majjhima means the middle, not the extreme. Patipada means practice. So majjhimapatipada is a balanced practice which totally avoid extremes. The Buddha did not preach there is 2 ways to nibbana or 2 methods to attain nibbana or 2 paths to nibbana or 2 techniques to attain nibbana. So there is no moist method or no dry method. There is only a single way to nibbana. That is majjhimapatipada or Noble Eightfold Path ( NEP ). The problem here is understanding of all these 8 parts. When these 8 parts are not fully understood, then problems arise. There is samma samadhi as one part of NEP Noble Eightfold Path. It is right concentration. It is not right absorption. The Buddha did not preach as right absorption in His 1st discourse. Please read Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. There does not described 'samma jhana ' or right absorption. If this thought arises it is wrong thought. There is no 'samma jhana' or there is no ' right absorption'. Insight and absorption are not 2 sides of the same coin. Insight is totally different from absorption. Before The Buddha, there were people who attained absorption. But they did not have insight into tilakkhana called anicca ( impermanence ), dukkha ( unsatisfactoriness ), and anatta ( selflessness ). This clearly points out that they are not on each side of the same coin. Even The Buddha had not had insight before His attainment of asavakkhaya nana. Soon after meeting Alara and soon after meeting Udaka, Siddattha Gotama attained all 8 jhanas. But as he was not an ordinary person he realized that all these 8 absorptions were not the answer to questions ageing, disease, and decease. This shows that he knew that he had not had insight. When even The Buddha did not have insight while he attained jhana or absorption, it is clear that insight and absorption are not 2 sides of the same coin. Mahasatipatthana sutta described 4 cornerstones of sati or mindfulness. But these 4 are not 1.breath, 2. body, 3. sense, 4. mind. Mahasatipatthana sutta says there are 4 practices. They are 1.kayanupassana ( contemplation on physical body ) This again comprises a) anapana pabba ( breathing meditation or meditation on body of breath ) b) iriyapatha pabba ( body positional meditation ) c) sampajanna pabba ( clear understanding meditation ) d) patikulamanasika pabba ( contemplative meditation on impurity of body ) e) dhatumanasika pabba ( elemental meditation on body ) f) navasivathika pabba ( contemplative meditation on 9 stages of body decomposition ) 2. vedananupassana ( contemplation on feeling ) This knows pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling, their arising, their passing away. 3. cittanupassana ( contemplation on mind ) This knows each state of mind. 4. dhammanupassana ( contemplation on dhamma ) This knows dhamma as they really are. Whether they are hindrances, khandha, ayatana, bojjhanga, sacca and full understanding of dhamma deeply. Anguttara Nikaya IV.41 Samadhi sutta describe what samadhi means, what are samadhi and where they are leading to. There are 4 possible destinations. But Samadhi sutta does not describe ''as evidence in support of 4 distinct practices or paths, or it does not speak 4 products or 4 fruit. See the following link for Samadhi sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-041.html Even though The Buddha did not preach moist or dry method, later dhammafarers label as though. But to build up samadhi or concentration there are many methods. There are more than one method. In Yugabaddha sutta ( In Tandem ) Anguttara Nikaya IV.170, Venerable Ananda stated there are 4 kinds when arahatship is attained. 1. tranquility first then insight follow 2. insight first then tranquility follow 3. insight and tranquility go in tandem 4. not specified See the sutta in the following link. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-170.html After reviewing all these there is no evidence that jhana or absorption is necessary to attain arahatta magga nana. Samma ditthi or right understanding is the most important. Because it is panna or wisdom. So while we are in this world in this human realm and while we have eyes to read dhamma, while we have ears to listen dhamma, we all should learn dhamma to full understanding. Understanding or wisdom or panna accumulate. If all dhamma are well understood in this life even in theoretical level, those who have done this have a potential to become sammasambuhha, paccekabuddha, or at least arahats in later life. Jhana on the other hand in its pure form is totally useless. If jhana is attained and if there is tendency to be reborn in asannasatta brahma bhumi where there is only rupa and there is no citta or nama dhamma, then Buddha dhamma will not be met. By the same token when arupa jhana are practised and be reborn in arupa brahama realms, it is totally useless because as puthujana in arupa brahma bhumi, there is no chance of attaining sotapatti magga nana. As there is no eye, ear and no rupa at all, there is no chance of meeting with Buddha Dhamma. The worst is to be reborn in the highest arupa jhana bhumi as puthujana arupa brahma. The reason of writing this message is not to dispute whether there is dry or moist method. But to remind to learn effectively while there is precious time that we have. May all being be free from wrong view. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam 31298 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: A group *consists* of paramattha dhammas. Learning more details about groups helps us to have a deeper understanding of the conditions for the rupas and of the intricate way these conditions operate. We are reminded that these rupas do not belong to us. This is a good foundation for satipatthana. After all we do not study these matters out of an academic interest. When there is awareness of realities we do not have to think of groups. Hi Nina, The reason I asked about the reality status of a group is that groups seem to make up our experience, they are definitely impermanent, but it also seems they are not, "strictly speaking", objects of consciousness. If we say an _inseparable_ group is ultimately real because it is impermanent, then I think we have to say a _separable_ group of groups is ultimately real because it is impermanent. Is there a category between concept and ultimate reality that can accommodate "group"? Does "sankhara" figure into this? How about the term "compact" (ghana)? Larry 31299 From: Larry Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Hi Howard, I think space has a special status in the abhidhamma list of rupas and the various things that were said about it are in accord with your descriptions. As for time, I have a tendency to think of it as the difference occasioned by impermanence. This has to do both with "history" (memory?) and the "rebirth in a different place" which is movement. Ven. Nyanaponika has quite a bit to say about time in "Abhidhamma Studies". I'll take a look and see if I can find anything you might be interested in. Larry 31300 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hi Howard, op 13-03-2004 20:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't believe in concrete matter, Nina! ;-)) I believe in sights, > sounds, tastes, smells, and bodily sensations such as hardness/softness, > warmth/cold, itches, pressures, etc. (Very idiosyncratic!!!!!! ;-)) N: That is all right. Those are rupas, phenomena which do not see, smell, etc. The word concrete matter: I do not like it very much, but use it to distinguish certain rupas that are mere characteristics from the majority of the list of 28 rupas. > Howard: > Yes, Nina, exactly!! That is precisely why I say that the matter > versus material-attribute distinction is not maintainable. That is exactly why > I > say "All phenomena are merely conditions, and there is no consistent way of > distinguishing conditions from attributes." >N: like Jon I have some trouble with the notion of attribute. I do not know what to answer about this. I would put it this way: there are 24 classes of conditions and these are distinct. Concrete examples would help. Another thought: Larry used the word characterize re lightness and hardness, and I answered: I would like to add: rupas in one group condition one another by way of conascent-condition. This may solve the question about attributes and it is in agreement with the Patthana. Lightness conditions hardness by way of conascent condition. In this way we can forget about attribute, what do you think? As to Dependent Origination, here is an idea: to go over it link by link, an indepth study. Otherwise it is too much. I looked in the Dispeller at the Suttanta method. I think you take more to that than to the Abhidhamma method. But it depends on your time and inclination. One link a week? I hope others will help. You found D.P. very helpful for daily life, and therefore, going deeper into it will be beneficial. There is always more to it! But, as I said, I always hesitate to say much about this subject. As I read in the Dispeller, this subject is difficult to understand and difficult to explain. Rob K has written several posts on it. Maybe he can repost them in mini portions? Nina. 31301 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Sarah, I appreciate B.B.'s answer on space. I do not agree about his answer on luminosity, where he speaks about some texts being later. But I have no need to debate. Nina. op 14-03-2004 06:04 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > .... > BB:>Of course, any further comments you care to make would > be greatly appreciated. In Karunadasa’s article on > Time and Space, I also believe there may be errors in > his treatment on space in this regard. > > With metta, > Bhikkhu Bodhi< 31302 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/14/04 3:21:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > As to Dependent Origination, here is an idea: to go over it link by link, > an > indepth study. Otherwise it is too much. I looked in the Dispeller at the > Suttanta method. I think you take more to that than to the Abhidhamma > method. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! ;-) --------------------------------------------- But it depends on your time and inclination. One link a week? I hope> > others will help. > You found D.P. very helpful for daily life, and therefore, going deeper into > it will be beneficial. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly beneficial. It is very deep. Moreover, it is not an unreasonable view to see dependent arising as constituting the core of the Dhamma, or at least constituting a central part of the core. ----------------------------------------------- There is always more to it! But, as I said, I always> > hesitate to say much about this subject. As I read in the Dispeller, this > subject is difficult to understand and difficult to explain. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There well may be endless depths to plumb here. Well worth the diving in! ----------------------------------------------- Rob K has> > written several posts on it. Maybe he can repost them in mini portions? > Nina. > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31303 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hello Howard, Nina, RobK, and all, If anyone is interested in studying the Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination), I'd be interested also. Have you seen this link? What do you think of the suggested texts? Dependent Origination Workshop: http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 3/14/04 3:21:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > As to Dependent Origination, here is an idea: to go over it link by link, > > an > > indepth study. Otherwise it is too much. I looked in the Dispeller at the > > Suttanta method. I think you take more to that than to the Abhidhamma > > method. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Indeed! ;-) > --------------------------------------------- > But it depends on your time and inclination. One link a week? I hope> > > others will help. > > You found D.P. very helpful for daily life, and therefore, going deeper into > > it will be beneficial. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly beneficial. It is very deep. Moreover, it is not an > unreasonable view to see dependent arising as constituting the core of the Dhamma, or > at least constituting a central part of the core. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > There is always more to it! But, as I said, I always> > > hesitate to say much about this subject. As I read in the Dispeller, this > > subject is difficult to understand and difficult to explain. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There well may be endless depths to plumb here. Well worth the diving > in! > ----------------------------------------------- > Rob K has> > > written several posts on it. Maybe he can repost them in mini portions? > > Nina. > > > ======================== > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31304 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:28am Subject: Re: [dsg]conditions, Howard, Rob K. Hi, Christine and all - In a message dated 3/14/04 4:05:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Howard, Nina, RobK, and all, > > If anyone is interested in studying the Paticcasamuppada (Dependent > Origination), I'd be interested also. > > Have you seen this link? What do you think of the suggested texts? > > Dependent Origination Workshop: > http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine =========================== Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31305 From: Philip Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Hello Jon, Nina and all. Thanks for the encouraging feedback, Jon and Nina. > It was inspiring to read what you said about your realisation of the > pitfalls of trying to 'transform dosa'. Obviously there were > accumulated tendencies to see this, it just needed you to come across > mention of it somewhere! So the credit goes to you ;-)). P: Well, if Sarah hadn't thought to ask me how my reading was going - though I hadn't made an appearance for weeks - and you hadn't posted what you did about the importance of Abhidhamma, and Nina hadn't made her books available online, and other members hadn't written the invaluable archive posts I read, none of this new understanding would have arisen. I think it provides an axample of how we can play an important role in the arising of kusala in others. I guess whether panna comes along with it or not is another matter. >> There are lots of 'benefits' of lots of different 'practices'. > However, benefits don't make a practice kusala ;-)) > > So rather than thinking in terms of a 'practice', it may be more > useful to think in terms of developing kusala of whatever kind > whenever the opportunity arises. P: I'd like to tell you about some further insight I've had about the way I have been practicing in the wrong way. And why I'm afraid I can't give up this practice for the time being. This will be long and self-absorbed, but thinking about it is very important for me so please bear with me. I was reading K Sujin's book on Metta the other day when I came across this line: "When there is metta, we think of the well being of someone else, whereas when there is conceit we find ourselves important." Needless to say I took this as a hint to run a check on my own practice of metta. At first, I was able to see it as a very selfless exercise - I do the contemplations in the morning in order to develop a sense of people taking care of each other with small moments of metta and karuna. What I called the "metta ripple effect" before. I don't involve myself in this contemplation, just work through the people I know I will be seeing that day, in different situations. (My life is amazingly repetitive. I don't know if this is true for everyone, or if it is a reflection of the comfortable uniformity of experience here in Japan, but I can easily predict what kind of situations will be arising during the day.) I sometimes intentionally include insights that have arisen during previous days. For example, the other day I was walking down a drab concrete boulevard towards the station when I became aware in a new way of all the people going by on bicycles. I suddenly felt compassion arising for everyone. We are carried through life, off to work, off shopping, off to see friends, thinking we're in control, but we are just being impelled along, always looking in vain for satisfaction and a sense of permanence through our daily experience. (I use "we" here to refer to people in general.) I just felt this compassion for the human condition, as seen through people biking to the station to go off and do whatever they are compelled to do. All that dukkha. And this led to a very friendly feeling, and a desire to do whatever I could to help people, because life is so hard etc. So the next morning, I included an image of people bicyling in my karuna contemplation, intentionally reinforcing that insight. And now whenever I see someone bicycling, even if they're not going to the station, it leads to an arising of a compassionate/friendly feeling. That's a fact - it does. So I asked myself if there conceit in this, and at first said no. But then as I kept thinking I realized what I was up to. I am seeking to transform the world I live in to make it a pleasant environment to operate in. I am making a beautiful playing ground for self. I thought of that movie "Pleasantville" where all was a black and white world until elements of colour started to arise. I am intentionally seeking to colour my world in a rose-coloured way, to make it into METTA LAND so I can feel comfortable and happy. Also, I think it's metta as an evolutionary tactic. I am in a situation now where I have to get cracking about coming up with ways to make money through my writing. I'm hitting middle age with a small salary, no pension and a wife. Transforming my world to make it a metta field is a kind of evolutionary survival tactic to make Japan a more supportive environment in which I can go out and hustle my children's picture book stories. (Japan is a meeca for picture book writers, because adults read them here too.) The picture book world is a "survival of the friendliest" kind of environment, maybe! Anyways, I see now what I've been up to. I don't think I can afford to stop it right now. I do have to hustle those stories. I do have to generate wordly ambition or my wife and I will be in trouble in our old age. Alas, worldly concerns will handicap my movement towards enlightenment in this lifetime. I think if I were single it would be different. I'm sure many beginners who practice metta are up to a similar thing. Using it to make the world seem like a more loving place in order to try to hide from suffering. It's like I'm taking sobahna steroids to enhance my performance in the loving-kindness field. Like real steroids there are harmful side effects to this practice. I've exagerated the crudeness of my approach a little, I'm sure. But not much... Thanks for your time. Metta, Phil p.s nina and jon, I have printed out your comments about kusala and panna and will be thinking a lot more about them. 31306 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Htoo, and thank-you ever so much for taking so much interest in my writing. However you happened to claim that I did not provide any canonical support for that writing. May I point you in the direction of the Sutta that I was discoursing upon, the Samadhi Sutta of AN IV.41, it was clearly stated in the original message. In fact you even mentioned it in your message, so you must have just over looked that fact. Be that as it may, I found you expressed many thoughts, views and opinions and you threw about a whole lot of Pali terms, which I am sure impresses the naive, however you failed once again to provide a single canonical reference in support of your thoughts, view and opinions. I am beginning to wonder if you have ever read any of the suttas you claim to have read. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/13/04 4:32:20 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:47:37 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Dhamma Friends, This thread was left untouched as I anticipated that jhana and samadhi would all mix up and this again would be used to wrongly highlight that sati leads to absorption, absorption leads to enlightenment which is wrong. When word by word evaluation has been done what found out are flaws which wrongly take the position as if it is true because it is all mixed up with right messages which are wrongly interpreted. Those who have learned a lot would not have any problem with the message 'The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path' because they all have already learned these and they have been practising rightly. There are still some people who do not have enough time to read Dhamma texts and Tipitaka, they might possibly assume this message as a right message as it took full appearance that mimicks genuine message. Actually 'Samadhi Sutta' of AN IV.41 says very clearly. You can follow the thread thoroughly and then you will find the valuable message for your own use but need to be careful not to be contaminated with wrong ideas. May all members be free from contamination of wrong ideas. With Unlimited & Ananta Metta, Htoo Naing >> 31307 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Vism.XIV 64, 65 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 64. 17. Lightness of matter has the characteristic of non-slowness. Its function is to dispel heaviness of matter. It is manifested as light transformability. Its proximate cause is light matter (cf. Dhs. 639). 18. Malleability of matter has the characteristic of non-stiffenedness. Its function is to dispel stiffness of matter. It is manifested as non-opposition to any kind of action. Its proximate cause is malleable matter (cf. Dhs. 640). 19. Wieldiness of matter has the characteristic of wieldiness that is favourable to bodily action. Its function is to dispel unwieldiness. It is manifested as non-weakness. Its proximate cause is wieldy matter (cf. Dhs. 641). 65. These three, however, are not found apart from each other. Still their difference may be understood as follows. Lightness of matter is alteration of matter such as any light (agile) state in material instances, as in one who is healthy, any non-slowness, any manner of light transformability in them, which is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating sluggishness of matter. Malleability of matter is alteration of matter such as any malleable state in material instances, as in a well-pounded hide, any pliable manner consisting in amenableness to exercise of power over them in all kinds of work without distinction, which [449] is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating stiffness of matter. Wieldiness of matter is alteration of matter such as any wieldy state in material instances, as in well-refined gold, any manner in them consisting in favourableness to the work of the body, which is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating unfavourableness to the work of the body. 31308 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Rebirth Linking Hi RobM, We haven't corresponded for a while, hope all's well with you. This is sure an interesting topic--is there a Paali equivalent to the expression, 'rebirth-linking'? As you know, my knowledge of abhidhamma AND Paali are sorely limited--thanks for your patience. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 12:37 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: BB2 - RobM -Kamma > > ...I understand that > > completed kamma (kamma-patha) has enough power to > > condition rebirth linking, but is kamma-patha a > > requirement for any kamma to be created? 31309 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanence 2. conditions. Hi Howard, this is a quote from Jon, he should have the credit for it. Nina. op 14-03-2004 16:42 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Nina's statement " The dhammas > themselves are not different from the quality they possess. In fact the > Atthasalini > says that 'there is no other thing than the quality born by it' " is exactly > what > I had in mind. 31310 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Jack, S: I appreciate your very well-considered comments. Apologies again for the delays on my part. .... > Jack: > I don't understand your above comments. Are you saying that > proper > understanding of an object is necessary before one does > samadhi/vipassana > meditation? .... S: Yes. Right understanding of the object and how it should be known or experienced in order for wisdom and other wholesome qualities to develop. If there is no distinction between right view and wrong view (of the samatha or vipassana kind) or between pleasant feeling accompanying wholesome and unwholesome consciousness, there won’t be any samadhi/vipassana bhavana (meditation). S: I think B.Bodhi gives a very good introduction to Nanamoli’s translation of the Sammaditthi Sutta here: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm ***** BB:“As its title suggests, the subject of the Sammaditthi Sutta is right view. The analysis of right view undertaken in the sutta brings us to the very core of the Dhamma, since right view constitutes the correct understanding of the central teachings of the Buddha, the teachings which confer upon the Buddha's doctrine its own unique and distinctive stamp. Though the practice of right mindfulness has rightly been extolled as the crest jewel of the Buddha's teaching, it cannot be stressed strongly enough that the practice of mindfulness, or any other approach to meditation, only becomes an effective instrument of liberation to the extent that it is founded upon and guided by right view. Hence, to confirm the importance of right view, the Buddha places it at the very beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path. Elsewhere in the Suttas the Buddha calls right view the forerunner of the path (pubbangama), which gives direction and efficacy to the other seven path factors. “Right view, as explained in the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, has a variety of aspects, but it might best be considered as twofold: conceptual right view, which is the intellectual grasp of the principles enunciated in the Buddha's teaching, and experiential right view, which is the wisdom that arises by direct penetration of the teaching. Conceptual right view, also called the right view in conformity with the truths (saccanulomika-sammaditthi), is a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma arrived at by study of the Buddha's teachings and deep examination of their meaning. Such understanding, though conceptual rather than experiential, is not dry and sterile. When rooted in faith in the Triple Gem and driven by a keen aspiration to realize the truth embedded in the formulated principles of the Dhamma, it serves as a critical phase in the development of wisdom (panna), for it provides the germ out of which experiential right view gradually evolves. “Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha-sammaditthi). This type of right view is aroused by the practice of insight meditation guided by a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma. To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and wisdom. If conceptual right view van be compared to a hand, a hand that grasps the truth by way of concepts, then experiential right view can be compared to an eye -- the eye of wisdom that sees directly into the true nature of existence ordinarily hidden from us by our greed, aversion and delusion.” **** J:> My experience is that following instructions in a metta meditation such > as, > "Think of a loved one. Get in touch with that feeling. May they be at > peace...." is how one learns about metta. One can only learn this > experientially. Are > you saying one has to understand metta conceptually before one can > experience > it? .... S: I think the conceptual and experiential understanding develop together. In other words, the more one understands about the precise nature of metta and about attachment (its near enemy), the less likely we are to take the attachment and pleasant feeling we feel towards loved ones as being metta. Metta has the characteristic of friendliness to all, regardless of whether they are loved ones or strangers one meets. Some people have the idea of developing metta towards oneself or in a quiet room, rather than on the street when one’s tired and flustered. I think the careful considering helps a lot. Otherwise we're bound to be fooled or cheated by the attachment we often have to being the ‘loving person’. Most helpful of all is the development of satipatthana which understands metta as a conditioned reality, not ‘my metta’ at all. .... J: > Again, I'm not sure what you mean by understand. To me, one learns that > which > you mention above by observing closely. Instructions such as, observe > the > difference between rupa and nama, are useful but not necessary. If you > look > carefully you could discover this by yourself without this instruction. > I think you > would disagree, right? ... S: Right;-) If we had never come across the Buddha’s teachings it would be impossible to clearly distinguish the characteristics of nama and rupa and to know them as anatta. Even Sariputta had not attained any vipassana insight knowledge before hearing the brief lines of the teachings. If we think otherwise, or think it’s just common sense, perhaps we need to hear more about nama and rupa. If we agree, we still need to hear a lot, lot more. .... J: > If I was a scientist and trying to find a cure for cancer, I would spend > a > lot of time observing how cancer operates and how different potential > cures > affect it. When I meditate, I spend a lot of time seeing how the > physical > sensation of my breath affects my mental processes, how the physical and > mental > aspects of each breath are selfless, not ultimately pleasant and > temporary, etc. > Observing the breath alone can let me know/experience the presence of > suffering, > the cause of suffering, the cessation of suffering and paths to > alleviate > suffering. .... S: Jack, I’d suggest that in your case there has been a very significant amount of wise consideration and reflection and that you’re not just concentrating on your breath and hoping for nibbana. I think the distinction between the natural development of samatha and the attachment to such development can be quite subtle. For example, there may be conditions for wise reflection on breath or metta arising in a day naturally. If one sets out to have it arise now or at another time, attachment is bound to creep in, I think. I look forward to your feedback here. .... J: > A scientist just looking into a microscope without trying to really see > what > is happening is not going to do anyone any good. My looking at my breath > > during meditation without trying to see what is happening is also not > doing me any > good. .... S: Agreed;-) .... J: > I still don't understand you answer to my question of > If one's object > of > attention is the breath, to use a possible example, what does one have > to > understand about it before using it in mental development?< .... S: My question to you would be this: Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any particular object? Metta, Sarah p.s Pls see my discussion with Htoo also;-) ===== 31311 From: Sarah Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sensing own mind whenever it moves ( 02 ) Dear Htoo, S:I think there is really one part of the equipment we have anything further to discuss: .... > > S: Ready. Let me just ask for another clarification. In your new > series(04) there's plenty of good stress on anatta and > understanding > different > > dhammas as they arise. This being the case, why do you write > `he > has been > > in sitting meditation for a long time'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Just typical case. In Biology there is typical cell which > contains all characters of plants and animals. Anatta can be seen at > any time. In the office, in the water, on top of the mountain, in the > sky and so on. > --------------------------------------------------------------.... S: This being the case, wouldn’t a more typical case be ‘whilst eating lunch’, ‘in the office’, ‘rushing for a bus or train’, ‘watching TV’ and so on? Also, I notice in the series that you always give the same typical case of ‘in sitting meditation for a long time’. Unless we have the idea that this is the ‘best’ case, I don’t think it will be typical at all. .... <......> > Htoo: Nothing really. I just follow his thought. Thought tracing :-) > Don't you think there is Atta. He said Anapana is elementary. > Satipatthana and Mahasatipatthana are graduate level. So I just want > to know what doctorial level is. .... S: ;-) OK, I think I missed the other post. It doesn’t make any sense, but we can just help to lay out the equipment and map and leave the rest to conditions, understanding our own cittas when we read views we consider erroneous. No need to be unduly concerned. .... S: I like some of your more recent letters such as the dove ‘kooing’ one. You include abhidhamma detail which I appreciate. If I ask you why you always refer to ‘the meditator’, especially in ‘Sensing dhamma (08)’, for example, you’ll tell me it’s just a conventional term and it’s panna that knows. I think it might be less misleading to use rt understanding or panna rather than the meditator who ‘has been practising meditation’, especially as you refer to other realities. In other words, in spite of your comments about anatta, it still sounds like there is an atta meditating, selecting certain objects, convinced that sitting a long time is better and forgetting that namas and rupas are conditioned and not in anyone’s control at this very moment. I look forward to your clarifications. I’m keen to start the journey together but am aware of lots of attachment flooding in, wishing to sort out and finally agree on the equipment as soon as possible. I think the map is clear, right? Metta, Sarah p.s Please see my post to Jack just written and one to KenO, hopefully coming. ================= 31312 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, ---------------------------- H:> > > > As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana Sutta > > commences with that. > > > ---------------------------- KH: > > > I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the > > commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal > > meditation: > > > > > > "When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In this > > matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know when > > they move on that they are moving. ------------------- H:> > The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during > ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing that, Ken. Note that > I said that the sutta *commences* with formal meditation. > Good point – the commentary does not say, "Just as dogs and jackals know they are breathing in (etc.)." I have to admit I'm not sure why that is. Over recent years, Nina and others have explained this sutta at great length, but, typically, I have retained very little. I notice the Sutta (not the commentary) says;" Just as a clever turner or a turner's apprentice, turning long, understands: 'I turn long;' or turning short, understands: 'I turn short'; just so, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, when he breathes in long, understands: 'I breathe in long'; I think this is making the same point, don't you? Jhana was taught by many great teachers -- it is not vipassana but it is certainly kusala. So we wouldn't want to liken it to the understanding of dogs and jackals. The understanding of a clever turner (or his apprentice (disciple)) is a more appropriate metaphor. As I read the commentary, the bhikkhu practising jhana then realises he has to gain insight as taught by the Buddha: "He trains himself with the thought: 'Experiencing the whole body, I *shall* breathe in'(etc)." This is where the characteristics of breath (as rupa), start to become known. So where does that leave formal meditation? Is mundane jhana the same as formal meditation? No, it can't be. Jhana is the result of a very high level of understanding (of the nature of kusala): it is not something a person without huge accumulations of panna can set out to do. On the other hand, formal meditation is no more kusala (or akusala) than is any other part of daily life. So, I stand by my original objection: there is no formal meditation in the Satipatthana-sutta. Kind regards, Ken H 31313 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken O, I’m no good at chess and tire easily on marathons (unlike our good friend Sukin;-)), but enjoy the Brazuka (I just think about Icaro's good cheer);-) .... --- Ken O wrote: > k: But Buddha do say in some situation it is impossible for > satipatthana to arise. .... S: Whilst in jhana or sleep. What else as Ken H also asked? .... K:>As I say, lets be objective, we encourage > others to be natural, not to live holy which in fact a false sense of > self, but we have to encourage others to avoid aksuala actions > because it can condition akusala cittas. Encourage others to avoid > akusala does not pertain to one should be purposedly living holy, it > encourges how to consider dhamma more as condition arise. .... S: Agreed, there hasn’t been any suggestion to the contrary. .... > k: These are exceptions. Have you seen other examples of monks > before the blade end their life become Arahant. .... S: Actually, yes. In addition to Godhika in Marasamyutta, SN, there’s the case of Channa, MN144 which has been discussed before. A case I find very interesting is that of Vakkali as given in Khandhasamyutta, SN22:87. (Reference to Vakkali came up in the Satipatthana sutta & commentary with regard to the balancing of the faculties. Vakkali had extremely strong faith or confidence (saddha) and followed the Buddha around everywhere until commanded by the Buddha to leave. Vakkali was depressed and lived on the Gijjhakuta mountain (Vulture’s Peak), Raajagaha before becoming an arahant.) http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18513.html In the SN account, Vakkali listens to the Buddha and later whilst gravely sick repeats the word, stating he has no perplexity, but after the other bhikkhus leave he ‘used the knife’ but is later said by the Buddha to have attained to parinibbana. B. Bodhi adds a commentary note: “Spk explains: ‘the elder, it is said, overestimated himself. As he had suppressed the defilements by concentration and insight, he did not see himself assailed by them and thus thought he was an arahant. Disgusted with his miserable life, he cut his jugular vein with a sharp knife. Just then, painful feelings arose in him. Realizing he was still a worldling, he took up his main meditation subject, explored it with knowledge, and attained arahantship just as he died.’” Also many unusual examples are given in the Theri-Theragatha. .... K: >Buddha dont condone > such actions so let not encourage others to do likewise just because > we say we should be natural and others get a false impression and do > what they like. Certain actions are no-no. Have you seen Buddha > tell his monks let get drunk and hoping conditions will arise to be > an Arahant ;-). ... S: Of course not. We all agree, Ken. By clearly understanding realities and eliminating wrong view, the danger of breaking the precepts and other more subtle kinds of unwholesome deeds or intentions or mental states will be seen more and more for what they are and the danger and seriousness of the unwholesome states will be stressed all the more. The point however, is that the frequent wise pondering, reflecting, considering and memorising that you often refer to and which we often read about in the texts, do not refer to long stories of time-consuming reflection and memorising which are incapable of arising whilst watching TV, performing unwholesome deeds or at any other time. Last Friday, some of my students were testing my limits and even whilst this was happening, I thought about lady Vedehika being tested by her servant, Kali and smiled. At one point, however, after hearing the same racist joke a few times, mopping up a spilt coke on my new wooden floor and putting up with StarKid Philip’s deliberate contrariness, I was really getting quite impatient and visibly annoyed. Even during these split seconds of imptience and annoyance, there were moments of wise reflection and awareness of the states and their unwholesome nature. No great insights, but my point is merely that anytime is the right time, but because the understanding and awareness is weak (certainly not yet ‘powers’;-)), they are bound to be followed again by unwholesome states and even ideas of self or some ‘thing’ which easily follow moments of weak satipatthana. You’ve quoted from Dvedhaavitakka Sutta, MN19, a couple of times. “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of this mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire.......” As the title suggests, the sutta is referring to two kinds of vitakka (applied thinking), as I understand - kusala (wholesome) and akusala (unwholesome), leading to kusala and akusala kamma-patha through the mind. As we know, vitakka cetasika (or sammaa sankappa if its’ ‘right’ in the eightfold path) is a lot faster and a lot more subtle than our conventional ideas of thinking or mental action. ‘bahulamanuvitakketi anuvicaareti’- frequently thinks (with vitakka)and ponders upon (with vicara). There can be frequent wise reflection and memorising of what one has heard at any time. Whether it is sufficient to abandon ‘thoughts of sensual desire’ and the performing of akusala kamma patha is another quesion and will depend on accumulated tendencies, strength of insight and so on as I see it. .... > k: I think you are so scare of self sneaking in, is it a self that > is scare of self :-). That is part of the explanation of lets not > be fooled by condition. Let not be fooled by conditions is to me, > just because all are conditions, we should be laze around and say: > "so be it". .... S: Ideas of self or other wrong views are bound to sneak in just as quickly. Understanding of conditions and the uncontrollabily of cittas helps us to see these and not take them for self either. It’s funny about the ‘lazing around’. I know what you mean. I used to think that if I didn’t push myself to read or study more that somehow it would be detrimental to the development of wisdom. I haven’t thought like that for a long time, not even when I was very sick for a couple of years and was still teaching long hours and often very cranky. Why? Because, understanding and straightening of views is the key, rather than any particular activity. Wise reflection arises very naturally when the conditions are right and without any special idea of ‘should’ or ‘ought’. I just read a note from a friend who mentioned K.Sujin had been to see a Thai historical/cultural film with friends three times! Some people might be shocked by this example. For me, it just indicates her confidence in satipatthana and the very ordinariness of its arising. No need to show people, just as you said, that one is always performing good deeds, is socially 'engaged' or reading Dhamma texts. The greatest kusala kamma-patha is right understanding of realities, which can arise just as easily in the cinema as elsewhere if there are the right conditions for it. Finally, to quote Sukin: “If one does not understand that everything is conditioned and has even a slight idea of being able to control situations, this can be a hindrance.” Also: “There are many, many other aspects of dhamma to consider which would lead one along the correct path, and there are many more which leads us in other directions. And I still maintain, that it all hinges upon Right View/Wrong View.” Look forward to more of your marathon posts together and await your ‘barking terrier’ response to me;-);-) Metta, Sarah p.s More friendly greetings between two bhikkhus in one of the suttas Christine gave - is it memorised?;-) ======= 31314 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:14am Subject: Hey Shakti ! Hello Shakti, I need to book accommodation this week and wonder if you received my last email? Could you reply off-list with your broker's email add. please? cheers, Chris 31315 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:13am Subject: Howard's new religion - Idiosyncratism (was patience and lots more) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote (on space): H: >Please see my reply to Larry's last post on this thread. It is yet another adventure in Idiosyncratism (my new religion)! ;-))< .... S: ;-);-) Are you sure your new religion is an adventure in Idiosyncratism rather than Idiosyncrasy?? Your choice certainly sounds more novel, but I can understand why my fellow-countrymen accuse you lot of reinventing the language;-) This reminded me that I hadn’t quite finished with another thread on terms (in spite of any wishes of yours to the contrary;-)) You explained to Nina and me: > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, there are some differences with these terms.To be a devotee > or > follower of someone worth being devoted to and following is admirable. > There is > nothing wrong in beng a devotee or follower per se. I consider myself a > devotee and follower of the Buddha, for example, and, if I bragged, I > would brag > about it! ;-) .... S: Hmmm, I think it’s one thing to use the terms about oneself and another to use them for others. Of course it depends on the cittas involved, but I would avoid using them, unless speaking to you, perhaps;-) Referring to oneself or someone else being a follower or a devotee of the Dhamma would be more appropriate, I think. I just referred to the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (which prompted this post): >’The story of the Thera Vakkali. This venerable person who fulfilled his duties through keen faith liked to behold the Master always. The Master admonished him saying, "What shall it profit you to see this impure body. Who sees the Dhamma, sees me," ‘ ..... H: >Being a doctrinaire devotee or follower, however, is less > worthwhile. .... S: Yes, again I would be very wary of using these terms for others as it might well sound derogatory or insulting and fail the ‘agreeable to others’ test. I say this, but I’m sure many things I say fail this test. Again, it’s the intention whilst using them that’s important in the end. We’re bound to make mistakes and as Christine pointed out, there are bound to be cultural and linguistic differences too. .... H: >Now, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of a teaching is > a neutral > matter. It is excellent if the interpretation is correct, and less so if > not. ..... S: Again, I’d probably stick to my own (or your fair-game;-)) interpretations under this banner or just to limited phrases or aspects another uses and suggest they sound idiosyncratic to me. I’d be carefull about referring, for example, to X’s or Y’s idiosyncratic interpretation of the Buddha’s teaching in general (even if I thought it in this case and might well be right), in case anyone might take offence. For example, talking to Michael, if I had referred to Nagarjuna’s ‘idiosyncratic interpretations’ in general, I think it would have been counter-productive. I might have been wrong and it might have sounded quite neutral to him too. Anyway, if we were all too careful, we’d never post. I get into trouble with my teasing - not everyone is as good-humoured as KenO. Hmmm..... Metta, Sarah ======= 31316 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:13am Subject: Contact Dear Sarah, In your message #31065 you queried: S: just to be really picky, I think `contact the meeting point' and `thinking & pondering are the evaluators' can be misleading. E: `Contact the meeting point' may be understood in 2 ways. (1) Eye, forms and eye-consciousness; the meeting of these three is contact. And so with the other senses. Say, you are watching an interesting program on TV when your daughter calls you to dine, and she gets no response. Or say, something is getting burnt in the oven close to you and you are not aware of it. Or say, at the end of the TV program you get up with a backache since you were not seated properly and was so engrossed in watching the program. Now in each of these instances the relevant consciousness(ear, nose and body) was not in that place for you to be aware of these things. There was the sound from your daughter calling you to dine and your ear was intact but ear-consciousness was not present; and so with the others. (2) Contact can also be understood as between me and things. I am and things are in contact with me. I build up a relationship between me and things. Things are mine. My car, my house and so on. The Puthujjana does not see this mirage(self) and he continues to believe in a self. These two ways are really one, if "me" can be seen as the eye and eye- consciousness put together. Because one conceives this body first before conceiving other things to be mine. S: Just to clarify - the wrong view or mirage is eradicated at stage of sotapanna, but still mana and subtle attachment until arahant. Wrong view is eradicated but not the mirage. The gross self can be understood as the personality view(sakkayaditti), which is eradicated. But the subtle `self', the conceit I am(mana), still persist until arahant. Hence the mirage is still there(in a way), but now one knows that it is a mirage hence the imperative, "one should not conceive". Whereas in relation to the Arahant, Lord Buddha says "he does not conceive………." Metta eznir 31317 From: Eznir Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:22am Subject: Sankhara Dear Sarah, In your message #31065 you queried: S: Rather than `sankhara at any time to all of those items', do you mean `paccaya' (condition)? I'm rather confused by the last couple of sentences. (E: The last couple of sentences that S meant is; "Sankhara and Sankhata Dhamma go in pairs. In paticcasamuppada there are 12 such pairs. Each is the sankhara to the following item in turn. But, there are other items, like ignorance, which is sankhara at any time to all of those items"). E: I recognize Sankhara as dependent condition, when and where ever it occurs in the Suttas. In the Culla Vedalla Sutta MN-44 the lay- follower Visakha asks Bhikkuni Dhammadina this question "How many formations(Sankhara) are there, what they are and why they are so called?" She answers this question taking as an example the 3 fundamental modes of expression(doors) viz., thought, word and deed, which in effect covers the 5-clinging-aggregates that Lord Buddha has said, in brief, is Suffering. This Sutta together with Parivatta Sutta SN XXII.56, where Sankhara is understood as the six bodies of intentions implies that experience in general is Sankhara. This leads to the understanding that experience is Paticcasamuppada anuloma and therefore all 12 items in Paticcasamuppada is a Sankara, ie., dependently arising or paticcasamuppanna. If one follows the thought pattern that underlie the words written in these two potions of the Suttas, and investigates matters through meditation, things should be clear. To summaries what is said: 1) That which determines the body -in/out breathing- is kayasankhara. Determinations that are bodily – bodily activity- is kayasancetana. 2) That which determines speech –thinking & pondering (vitakka/vicara) - is vacisankhara. Determinations that are verbal – verbal approach- is vacisancetana. 3) That which determines the mind(citta) –feeling & perceptions- is cittasankhara. Determinations that are mental –mental activity- is manosancetana. Consider this illustration for further clarification: Let's say you meet a childhood pal of yours after a long time in a busy market-place. You see him at a distance and you want to attract his attention. His form, your eye and eye-consciousness, the meeting of the three is contact. Your recognition of him and the joy of seeing him is perception and feeling –cittasankhara, that gives rise to a mind (citta) –a sankhata dhamma. The mental activity that runs through the mind at that moment(wanting to see him, speak to him, reminisce the good old days etc.,) is manosancetana. To attract his attention you wave at him, an action that is bodily – kayasancetana. The fact that the body, a sankhata dhamma, was intact and in good health is due to in/out breathing(among other factors)- is kayasankhara. Subsequently you reach him, thinking and pondering what to say (preparing your speech)- is vacisankhara, and the formed words that are spoken is sankhata dhamma. The fact that you took a verbal approach to the meeting is vacisancetana. This is a rather crude illustration of how a Sankhata Dhamma(a compounded thing) is perpetually kept persisting in time(see AN Sankhata Sutta III.47 for persistence) by the choice of the moment (intentions/cetana) among a variety of choices(that is presented to your consciousness at that moment)to choose from(Sankhara). Note also how body, speech and mind come into play and therefore the 5-clinging- aggregates. This is a particular incident. Experience is filled with such particular incidences, packed back-to-back, which gives the impression of a continuous flow of experiences in general. And so we say that `life moves on!" As to how much subtle an experiential incident that one could see depends on ones perception. If the meeting of the two friends were to be seen through the eyes of a 35mm cine-film cameraman; one would find that the seemingly continuous flow of the scene is actually a series of still picture frames unraveling at the rate of 24 frames per second. If seen through the `eye-of-wisdom' of Lord Buddha, I suppose, one would find that the seemingly continuous flow-of-experience, what is called existence, is actually a series of `citta frames', as in the Abhidhamma, unraveling at a rate of billions per second(I don't know how much exactly?*#). Verification of which depends on the range of vision of the Ariyasavaka. The point being driven here is the interaction between Sankhara and Sankhata Dhamma. Compare with the changing scenario as composed of the stillness of picture frames. Compare also with the 92 eons being composed of 100 years of human life span(provided that one is always born as a human being). Incidentally, note what a `blip' a life span is compared to the 92 eons of existence. This is on a macro scale. To continue this image on a micro scale; even to a puthujjana, this "stillness of a single picture frame" of a 100 years of life span (mistakenly taken as permanent) is a changing scenario from day to day. But the impermanence of all sankhara that Lord Buddha speaks of is said only to be found when one investigates into the abyss of the mind, secluded by the changing scenario offered by the sensual pleasures, breaking through the barrier of conceptuality(namarupa), when one surfs the waves of the elements. Metta eznir 31318 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] BB4 - Space Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I appreciate B.B.'s answer on space. .... yes, I'll send more links to posts as he requests. ... > I do not agree about his answer on luminosity, where he speaks about > some > texts being later. But I have no need to debate. .... This is consistent with his earlier response. Like you, I think it's unfortunate and don't agree with cherry-picking from the same commentary texts (eg commentary to AN), but we may need to let this one be and just respect that everyone comes to thier own conclusions as I mentioned to Jou yesterday. Metta, Sarah ======= 31319 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jack, S: My question to you would be this: > Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any > particular object? > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Pls see my discussion with Htoo also;-) What?? Because this is what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught to give attention to the breath in many different suttas. Do you remember the Buddha??? He's that one who isn't A. Sujin! ;-)) Why do you ask this odd question? What are you getting at? Metta, James 31320 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah K: As usual my usual barking terrier self ;-). > .... > S: Whilst in jhana or sleep. What else as Ken H also asked? > .... k: Sure tell me if you are now telling a lie at that moment you can attain Nibbana. Fat hope. Only after that aksuala moment then there is a possibility. We have to clearly know the jati of the citta since satipatthana only works in kusala citta so there will be no enlightement during akusala citta. Though akusala cittas can be a condition for kusala. They are exclusive! > S: Actually, yes. In addition to Godhika in Marasamyutta, SN, > there’s the case of Channa, MN144 which has been discussed before. A case I find very interesting is that of Vakkali as given in Khandhasamyutta, SN22:87. k: I know the story also as I said these are exceptions. If you read the spk notes - Buddha dont condone such actions. If you hope that doing such actions will help one to gain enlightement, hey go ahead and be my guest ;-). > The point however, is that the frequent wise pondering, reflecting, > considering and memorising that you often refer to and which we > often read about in the texts, do not refer to long stories of time-consuming reflection and memorising which are incapable of arising whilst watching TV, performing unwholesome deeds or at any other time. Last Friday some of my students were testing my limits and even whilst this was happening, k: Testing you limits are the one you set yourself. Since panna is weak so there is a limit. If panna whos you as a not self, where is the limit. As I said earlier to Sukin, it is up to you to choose your own action. If you feel reading newspaper and watch TV can increase your panna, go ahead and be my guests. Panna do come in thin air. If they do, Buddha will not have been preaching it for 45 years. S: Whether it is sufficient to abandon ‘thoughts of sensual desire’ and the performing of akusala kamma patha is another quesion and will depend on accumulated tendencies, strength of insight and so on as I see it. K: do you know that all your knowlegde of dhamma comes also from the ability from sanna. If sanna dont work its function, we will not be able to distinguish between kusala and akusala. So everything you think and do sanna has already working on it. > .... > S: Ideas of self or other wrong views are bound to sneak in just as > quickly. Understanding of conditions and the uncontrollabily of > cittas helps us to see these and not take them for self either. > > It’s funny about the ‘lazing around’. I know what you mean. I used > to think that if I didn’t push myself to read or study more that > somehow it would be detrimental to the development of wisdom. k: that is a false concept. I did not suggest you go and study the text right now because it will be impossible because panna will not arose effort to do it. I ask you to reflect more not ask you to be holy. K: You mention about A Sujin being natural. Just her what I ask you, if you think panna will work out of thing air, be my guest. Right Understanding is not just simply right understanding. Right understanding has different level. Going to movie is not right undestanding, is a sign show that panna is not strong enough. Go and ask her whether what I said is true or not ;-). Examples like these are good to show living naturally and not trying to be holy but not good for showing what is truly right understanding. Ken O 31321 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - I'm sorry, Ken, but I just don't see how you addressed the point that Imade about the sutta beginning with formal meditation, Idon't know what the "dogs and jackals" business is all about, and I don't see what point about ongoing mindfulness you think you have made that I would disagree with. I just don't get it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/15/04 2:53:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > ---------------------------- > H:> > >>>As far as formal meditating is concerned, the Satipatthana > Sutta > >>commences with that. > > >>---------------------------- > > > KH: > > >>I must disagree (no surprises there):-) Consider what the > >>commentaries to the Satipatthana-sutta have to say about formal > >>meditation: > >> > >> > >>"When he is going (a bhikkhu) understands: 'I am going.'" In > this > >>matter of going, readily do dogs, jackals and the like, know > when > >>they move on that they are moving. > ------------------- > H:> > > The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during > >ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing > that, Ken. Note that > >I said that the sutta *commences* with formal meditation. > > > > > Good point – the commentary does not say, "Just as dogs and jackals > know they are breathing in (etc.)." > > I have to admit I'm not sure why that is. Over recent years, Nina > and others have explained this sutta at great length, but, > typically, I have retained very little. > > I notice the Sutta (not the commentary) says;" Just as a clever > turner or a turner's apprentice, turning long, understands: 'I turn > long;' or turning short, understands: 'I turn short'; just so, > indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, when he breathes in long, > understands: 'I breathe in long'; > > I think this is making the same point, don't you? Jhana was taught > by many great teachers -- it is not vipassana but it is certainly > kusala. So we wouldn't want to liken it to the understanding of dogs > and jackals. The understanding of a clever turner (or his apprentice > (disciple)) is a more appropriate metaphor. > > As I read the commentary, the bhikkhu practising jhana then realises > he has to gain insight as taught by the Buddha: "He trains himself > with the thought: 'Experiencing the whole body, I *shall* breathe > in'(etc)." This is where the characteristics of breath (as rupa), > start to become known. > > So where does that leave formal meditation? Is mundane jhana the > same as formal meditation? No, it can't be. Jhana is the result of > a very high level of understanding (of the nature of kusala): it is > not something a person without huge accumulations of panna can set > out to do. On the other hand, formal meditation is no more kusala > (or akusala) than is any other part of daily life. So, I stand by > my original objection: there is no formal meditation in the > Satipatthana-sutta. > > > Kind regards, > Ken H > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31322 From: Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's new religion - Idiosyncratism (was patience and lots more) Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/15/04 5:13:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote (on space): > > H: >Please see my reply to Larry's last post on this thread. It is yet > another adventure in Idiosyncratism (my new religion)! ;-))< > .... > S: ;-);-) Are you sure your new religion is an adventure in Idiosyncratism > rather than Idiosyncrasy?? Your choice certainly sounds more novel, but I > can understand why my fellow-countrymen accuse you lot of reinventing the > language;-) > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course, we Yanks are strong on innovation! ;-)) The word 'idiosyncrasy' is in the language, and the other is not, but the other is of the right form to be the name of a religion - like Mormonism, Judaism, Jainism, and Buddhism. This is the natural course of extending a productive linguistic form. Oh, okay - so we bastardize the language!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > > This reminded me that I hadn’t quite finished with another thread on terms > (in spite of any wishes of yours to the contrary;-)) > > You explained to Nina and me: > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Well, there are some differences with these terms.To be a devotee > >or > >follower of someone worth being devoted to and following is admirable. > >There is > >nothing wrong in beng a devotee or follower per se. I consider myself a > >devotee and follower of the Buddha, for example, and, if I bragged, I > >would brag > >about it! ;-) > .... > S: Hmmm, I think it’s one thing to use the terms about oneself and another > to use them for others. Of course it depends on the cittas involved, but I > would avoid using them, unless speaking to you, perhaps;-) > > Referring to oneself or someone else being a follower or a devotee of the > Dhamma would be more appropriate, I think. > > I just referred to the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta (which prompted this > post): > >’The story of the Thera Vakkali. This venerable person who fulfilled his > duties through keen faith liked to behold the Master always. The Master > admonished him saying, "What shall it profit you to see this > impure body. Who sees the Dhamma, sees me," ‘ > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I miss the relevance in this. In any case, I see nothing wrong about the word 'devotee'. ---------------------------------------------- > ..... > H: >Being a doctrinaire devotee or follower, however, is less > >worthwhile. > .... > S: Yes, again I would be very wary of using these terms for others as it > might well sound derogatory or insulting and fail the ‘agreeable to > others’ test. I say this, but I’m sure many things I say fail this test. > Again, it’s the intention whilst using them that’s important in the end. > We’re bound to make mistakes and as Christine pointed out, there are bound > to be cultural and linguistic differences too. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes, Sarah, there can be too many egg shells to walk on. ---------------------------------------------------- > .... > H: >Now, having an idiosyncratic interpretation of a teaching is > >a neutral > >matter. It is excellent if the interpretation is correct, and less so if > >not. > ..... > S: Again, I’d probably stick to my own (or your fair-game;-)) > interpretations under this banner or just to limited phrases or aspects > another uses and suggest they sound idiosyncratic to me. I’d be carefull > about referring, for example, to X’s or Y’s idiosyncratic interpretation > of the Buddha’s teaching in general (even if I thought it in this case and > might well be right), in case anyone might take offence. For example, > talking to Michael, if I had referred to Nagarjuna’s ‘idiosyncratic > interpretations’ in general, I think it would have been > counter-productive. I might have been wrong and it might have sounded > quite neutral to him too. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: It may or may not have been useful, but compared to orthodox Theravada, I think it would be correct to refer to Nagarjuna's perspective as idiosyncratic. And compared to the Brahmanism at the time of the Buddha, it would be correct to refer to the Buddha's dhamma as idiosyncratic. In fact, in that context, it is correctly referred to as heterodox. Different from the norm is not wrong, per se. And, in any case, if one thinks that a position *is* wrong, it is perfectly appropriate to say so! A number of people here frequently speak against formal meditation practice, saying that it is not only not the Dhamma, but is an exercise in "self". Often this position is proselytized, and at times people are criticized for meditating (for their own good). This is perfectly legitimate. But it is also perfectly legitimate to counter this, even quite strongly. We should all, of course, attempt to say what we say without harshness. ------------------------------------------------- > > Anyway, if we were all too careful, we’d never post. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Indeed. That's the problem with too many egg shells. ------------------------------------------------ I get into trouble> > with my teasing - not everyone is as good-humoured as KenO. Hmmm..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31323 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Ken, Just a few very quick clarifications, then I’ll rest my case and leave it to your marathon pal;-) --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > K: As usual my usual barking terrier self ;-). .... S: You said it;-) .... > k: Sure tell me if you are now telling a lie at that moment you can > attain Nibbana. Fat hope. Only after that aksuala moment then there > is a possibility. We have to clearly know the jati of the citta > since satipatthana only works in kusala citta so there will be no > enlightement during akusala citta. Though akusala cittas can be a > condition for kusala. They are exclusive! ... S: We all agree and this has been stressed already in the discussion. However, you’be been talking about situations, not about specific cittas. No disagreement on these. As I mentioned concerning vitakka, vicara and pondering,cittas change very, very quickly. “That which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night” like the monkey grabbing different branches (SN12:61). .... > k: I know the story also as I said these are exceptions. If you > read the spk notes - Buddha dont condone such actions. If you hope > that doing such actions will help one to gain enlightement, hey go > ahead and be my guest ;-). .... S: I made it clear in my post that they should never be condoned and were motivated by wrong view. I stressed that on the contrary, rt understanding will see the danger of akusala all the more. I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here;-) ... > k: Testing you limits are the one you set yourself. Since panna is > weak so there is a limit. If panna whos you as a not self, where is > the limit. .... S: The limit depends on all the accumulated kilesa. ... K: >As I said earlier to Sukin, it is up to you to choose > your own action. If you feel reading newspaper and watch TV can > increase your panna, go ahead and be my guests. Panna do come in > thin air. If they do, Buddha will not have been preaching it for 45 > years. .... S: Neither Sukin or I have even hinted that ‘reading newspaper and watch TV can increase your panna’. We’ve suggested that the so-called choice is an illusion and that panna can arise at these times, NOTE: not with akusala cittas;-) .... > K: do you know that all your knowlegde of dhamma comes also from the > ability from sanna. If sanna dont work its function, we will not be > able to distinguish between kusala and akusala. So everything you > think and do sanna has already working on it. .... S: We all agree that sanna arises with each citta. This is a little red herring you’re introducing here, Ken;-). .... > k: that is a false concept. I did not suggest you go and study the > text right now because it will be impossible because panna will not > arose effort to do it. I ask you to reflect more not ask you to be > holy. .... S: Glad we agree on the holy bit;-) .... > K: You mention about A Sujin being natural. Just her what I ask > you, if you think panna will work out of thing air, be my guest. .... S: No one has suggested it will arise without the right conditions. ... K: > Right Understanding is not just simply right understanding. Right > understanding has different level. Going to movie is not right > undestanding, .... S: No one said it was. Remember, Sukin and I are the ones who are not so interested in situations. ... K: >is a sign show that panna is not strong enough. Go and > ask her whether what I said is true or not ;-). .... S: Hey, I think you’d better come and ask her all these things yourself ;-) At the same time, you can try to persuade Sukin to stay up for some live all-night marathons. .... K: >Examples like these > are good to show living naturally and not trying to be holy but not > good for showing what is truly right understanding. .... S: No it wasn’t meant to show the latter. I merely was suggesting that we needn’t be afraid of akusala in ordinary living situations, but develop understanding and wise reflection anytime. As Nina wrote in post 26502 in the Vism thread: "Thus, we should not have an idea of this first, then that. there are many levels of morality and concentration. No question of any purity (visuddhi) without satipatthana, without vipassana." Also as RobK ended his helpful post 30844: MN 26, the Ariyapariyesana-sutta >'"This Dhamma which I have realised is indeed profound, difficult to perceive, difficult to comprehend...." Perhaps when we think we know, or think it is not so hard that is the time to be concerned. it may be mana or subtle attasanna (self) that is thinking like that.'< Must go, see you next week;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 31324 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning the Brazilian Brazuca steps Hi Sarah > Perhaps when we think we know, or think it is not so hard that is > the time to be concerned. it may be mana or subtle attasanna (self) that is thinking like that.'< k: The way you said it, everything can be a subtle self. If knowing conditions as not self is a subtle self, then I dont know how we are going to be enlighted. I am not saying I know and I am saying we must not take dhamma too lightly. If everything we leave to conditions, we are no better than animals as I said to Sukin before. There is a fine line draw being falling into the trap of conditions and understanding it. For tomorrow, death may come, who knows? Ken O 31325 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack Sarah, Thanks for continuing this discussion. I am much closer to understanding your position. You have explained why you believe conceptual understanding should come before experiential understanding. I'm still not clear how this experiential understanding occurs in your way of looking at things. If I conceptually understand anatta, for example, are you saying that this conceptual understanding by itself will cause me to see anatta in operation in my everyday life? And, then are you adding that any attempt to see anatta while, for instance, meditating activates the "I" and is thus to be avoided? S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any particular object? First, because the Buddha suggested it. Second because it is too difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use meditation to slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of meditation and then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. After practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are able to see, truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we are enlightened. I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one phenomena, our breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why pick an environment where there are lots of distractions? jack 31326 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, Samadhi sutta does not say as you wrote. Please re-read it up. I thoroughly dissected each and every part of your message which are full of flaw. I already linked the reference. Even though you have included that samadhi sutta is your reference, you mentioned it in the wrong way. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > Hello Htoo, and thank-you ever so much for taking so much interest in my > writing. However you happened to claim that I did not provide any canonical > support for that writing. May I point you in the direction of the Sutta that I was > discoursing upon, the Samadhi Sutta of AN IV.41, it was clearly stated in the > original message. In fact you even mentioned it in your message, so you must > have just over looked that fact. Be that as it may, I found you expressed > many thoughts, views and opinions and you threw about a whole lot of Pali terms, > which I am sure impresses the naive, however you failed once again to provide > a single canonical reference in support of your thoughts, view and opinions. > I am beginning to wonder if you have ever read any of the suttas you claim to > have read. > > Kindest regards, > > Jeff Brooks 31327 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path dear mike: > > Well said as usual--thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- He is great!!! He is a bombshell!!! He is a blockbuster!!!! He is a source of meritorious deeds!!! He dri-ves-me cra-zy (oh..ohhhh) on taking the Patthama at one single breath! He is doing the do!!! I am following up his Patthama series at Triplegem group with incommensurable pleasure!!! mettaya, Ícaro 31328 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and Ken H and all I think crux of the question whether there is such thing known as meditation. I think there is first lets look at <> Then in Dispeller of Deplusion - <> Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B Bodhi Translation or TB, there is part where it said that <> So in the end I dont think we can say that meditation is not taught. But the point of contention I have is what are the critera before any meditation subject. Then in Dispeller of Deplusion - there is the description in the 32 Parts in General at the Classification of Mindfullness, it said <> Then again in Visud III.28, <> Then in MN 4 Bhayabherava Sutta - the meaning of a going to a forest. What kind of activities produce concentraton, the ten wholesome precepts, the understanding of the five hindrances etc. So in the end - still the same old two words - Right Understanding ;-). Ken O 31329 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:02am Subject: Dependent Origination Hi Sarah I saw you wrote to Howard reply that feeling and contact are also vipaka. That ok. Then the questions how about those javana cittas, other vipakas etc in the sense door proccess. Then again how about the mind door process. How are they relate to Dependent Origination. Ken O 31330 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Ken, > Sukin: Yes, if one is `hoping', then it is quite unlikely that it > will happen, but is anyone talking about hope? Isn't it all about > the complexity of conditions and hence impossibility to know what > will be conditioned to arise, when? k: the issue is not when, is Today, S: And it's not about today, but now. The `when', is anything from the next moment to the end of samsara. k: the effort must be made, for tomorrow death may come, who knows? No bargain with Motarlity, can keep him and his hordes away. Two beautiful sentence that I got from Sutta on A Single Excellent Night (MN 131). S: Death is now, not tomorrow, when it comes to dhamma. Yes, beautiful Sutta, very inspiring every time you read it. Arouses chanda, but who's to say accompanied by which wholesome cetasikas and what level of panna. And who's to say, what immediately may follow. And as you say below, `natural', no need to be prompted by any idea about a `thing to do'. k: Definitely we are talking exertion of conditions and not purposedly go and be holy. When the danger of akusala is know, exertion will naturally arise. > Sukin: Yes, if there are conditions, anything can happen. k: Sukin, anything can happen is a fallacy. Because we know the equations that kusala conditions kusala, likewise vice versa. Dont leave satipatthana to mere jackpot. S: Or should I say the right result will follow only from the right cause? > > k: No one ask you to make any rules, I only ask you to reflect and > > consider dhamma more. > Sukin: But doesn't this sound like a rule? ;-) k: That is not a rule, that is something Buddha tell us to do ;-) S: The Buddha said a lot of things; he directed our attention to conditionality and relations. Precisely because he knew exactly about what cause will bring what fruit and how complex the conditions of each moment are, he never prescribed the same thing for everybody. And even though the universality of dhamma meant that they are the same for all, it was a question of `dhammas'. Dhammas like; right view, sati, chanda, viriya, vitaka, saddha, and so on. All of which arise in dependence on other very complex set of dhammas. These dhammas are what constitute, what we conventionally call, listening to and considering dhamma. But the conventional activity itself, says nothing about what precise dhamma has arisen or will arise. So it is not in the `activity', but the understanding of each moment. In other words, the same thing that you say to others with regard to `formal meditation', applies here. ;-) > Sukin: To read, ponder and memorise, isn't this also conditioned? > And to do this, did panna come out of thin air? ;-) k: Yes all are conditioned but why leave all to chance ;-). If you dont even ponder dhamma or reflect them, and you expect that panna will grow. Fat hope! S: Ken, the very idea of `chance' is conditioned by self-view, and this in turn conditions a `thing to do'. Yes, if you don't ponder dhamma, then understanding will not grow. But does the idea of leaving it all to conditions necessarily mean that there is no reflection and considering of dhamma taking place? On the other hand, if there *is* the idea of `needing to ponder', will that necessarily happen? > Sukin: It is not about how rare or common, in fact it is not about > anyone at all. But about understanding conditions. k: Understanding conditions does not imply don't do anything. It implies there is no way a self can do to perceive a not-self. S: You have elsewhere compared so beautifully, the process of treading the Buddha's path, to `not adding fuel' from the very beginning. So why this now? Did I miss something? Understanding does not mean `things are not done' (conventionally speaking). But it knows that if there is no understanding, then what is done, is done with ignorance. And when there *is* understanding about conditions, then we see that only dhammas perform their specific functions (reading, considering or whatever), no `self' who does anything. K: The only way is to consider dhamma, reflect, ponder etc. Then when panna knows the danger of aksuala, effort will arise naturally. S: Yes, but only when conditions are right it will happen, in any case, there is no point being so driven by the idea. k: To sum it all up. Right Understanding (sounds fimiliar ;-) ). Because right understanding conditions right effort etc. There are I think different level of right understanding and that is a very intelligent answer to all dhamma questions. S: And as Nina says about parroting, if she can be a parrot sometimes, how more often we are? It is fine to make inferences, but we may still miss the significance of all this in this very moment. ;-) Metta, Sukin Ps: I just saw that you have been discussing on the original thread with Sarah. Maybe I should read that first and then reply. But I only just now managed to log in. Have been having computer and/or internet problems all day today. So I am sending this off. 31331 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hello KenO (Howard, KenH) and all, You write: "Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B Bodhi Translation or TB, there is part where it said that <>" This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be undertaken by us all. More confused after all these years .... Lately I've been wondering that maybe the crux of the point is not whether 'meditation IS taught' - but whether 'not meditating IS NOT taught'. metta and peace. Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Howard and Ken H and all > 31332 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Chris: > You write: "Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B Bodhi > Translation or TB, there is part where it said that < Bhikkhu, gone to the forest, having folded his legs, crosswise, set > his body erect and established mindfullness in front of him.>>" > > This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the > Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be undertaken > by us all. . --------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris, take for example the Sutta Nipaata, Atthaka Chapter, Sariputta Sutta, where Buddha teaches to Sariputta and others which thoughts and practices a monk must carry on while meditating alone at the jungle. As I've said to Sarah before, I've only read the portuguese translation of it, and some biased interpretations may arise in my understanding... but it seems to me that Buddha was prescribing an activity that should be undertaken for all people... that can bear up insects that bite, crawl, pests, whims; snakes,beasts, hidden thieves, fire, hostility by pheasants, ills, loneliness, bad or no food at all, polluted water, stinks that trickle here and there, Fear of the Dark ( and The trooper, The Number of the Beast, Give your daughter to the slaughter, the clairvoyant, The Profecy, The Phanton of the Opera, Sun and steel, Killers, The sanctuary, Be Quick or be dead, Afraid to shoot strangers,Dune,Strange in a strange land, Holy Smoke, Piece of Mind, Alexander the Great, Tailgunner, Crossed-eye Mary,The evil that Men do, Rainmaker, The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, From here to eternity, Two minutes to midnight, Hallowed by thy name, the prisioner,die with your boots on,32 Acacia Avenue, the Man of the Edge, etc, etc ,etc) Damn it! What a mess is the jungle today!!! > > More confused after all these years .... Ditto!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 31333 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Larry, op 14-03-2004 20:14 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > The reason I asked about the reality status of a group is that groups > seem to make up our experience, they are definitely impermanent, but > it also seems they are not, "strictly speaking", objects of > consciousness. N: We can think of all those different groups, thus they are objects of citta that thinks. L: If we say an _inseparable_ group is ultimately real > because it is impermanent, then I think we have to say a _separable_ > group of groups is ultimately real because it is impermanent. N: You probably mean, take one group out among all these and view it? Insight can realize the arising and falling away of one rupa at a time. When hardness impinges on the bodysense that rupa is the object of insight, and not the other rupas of that group, since these cannot impinge on the bodysense. L: Is > there a category between concept and ultimate reality that can > accommodate "group"? N: I would like to be careful with the word concept, because it has many meanings. A term can represent what is real or what is unreal. samuuha pa~n~natti are collective concepts, these correspond to a collection or group of things. The five khandhas are groups. Each group consists of ultimate realities. But why should we try to be aware of a whole group? L: Does "sankhara" figure into this? N: The meaning of sankhara depends on the context. Sankhaara dhammas are conditioned dhammas. Sankhaarakkhandha is the khandha of formations. L: How about the > term "compact" (ghana)? N: ghana means solid, compact. Nina. 31334 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: dependent origination. Hi Howard, op 14-03-2004 22:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the > mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) appreciating your and Christine's interest. I need your help since I have no time to go to the web. What did you see there? What do you have? It would be helpful if you could post now and then a small portion. I have B.B. Mahaniddana. I am afraid I cannot give much input, just a little. My other obligations, Tiika, etc. take much time. For now: I read in the Dispeller (I, p. 162) : Herein, "as to division of the teaching", the Blessed One's teaching of the Dependent Origination is fourfold, namely, starting from the beginning or the middle up to the end and starting from the middle or the end up to the beginning. On p. 170, the Vibhanga is quoted: Herein, which is ignorance? It is unknowing regarding suffering (dukkha). We read: Nina. 31335 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Dear Icaro, Holy Mackerel! Was that all in the Portugese translation? What WAS the translator smoking? (- or, dare I ask, the poster?) :-) :-) (Icaro, I could endure most difficulties, but I think the thing to break me would be Hostility by Pheasants! O, Lordy! that SUCH a thing could be!) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Dear Chris: > > > > You write: "Then in Satipatthana suttas, be it Soma Thera or B > Bodhi > > Translation or TB, there is part where it said that < > Bhikkhu, gone to the forest, having folded his legs, crosswise, set > > his body erect and established mindfullness in front of him.>>" > > > > This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the > > Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be > undertaken > > by us all. > > . > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Chris, take for example the Sutta Nipaata, Atthaka Chapter, > Sariputta Sutta, where Buddha teaches to Sariputta and others which > thoughts and practices a monk must carry on while meditating alone at > the jungle. As I've said to Sarah before, I've only read the > portuguese translation of it, and some biased interpretations may > arise in my understanding... but it seems to me that Buddha was > prescribing an activity that should be undertaken for all people... > that can bear up insects that bite, crawl, pests, whims; > snakes,beasts, hidden thieves, fire, hostility by pheasants, ills, > loneliness, bad or no food at all, polluted water, stinks that > trickle here and there, Fear of the Dark ( and The trooper, The > Number of the Beast, Give your daughter to the slaughter, the > clairvoyant, The Profecy, The Phanton of the Opera, Sun and steel, > Killers, The sanctuary, Be Quick or be dead, Afraid to shoot > strangers,Dune,Strange in a strange land, Holy Smoke, Piece of Mind, > Alexander the Great, Tailgunner, Crossed-eye Mary,The evil that Men > do, Rainmaker, The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, From here to > eternity, Two minutes to midnight, Hallowed by thy name, the > prisioner,die with your boots on,32 Acacia Avenue, the Man of the > Edge, etc, etc ,etc) > Damn it! What a mess is the jungle today!!! > > > > More confused after all these years .... > > Ditto!!! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 31336 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:49am Subject: Ignorance, Release-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.16-17 Dear Group, These two excerpts below are the last in the section of "Fetters" in Recognizing the Dhamma. (And happily we can expect Victor back from his break from the List soon). The next section is called "Shedding". The quote about ignorance is such a little quote for such crippling fetter. Most of us don't even realise we are completely enveloped by it most of the time. May we all, one day, be at the point where "there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- § 2.16. "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance." [SN XII.2] § 2.17. "Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen -- clear, limpid, and unsullied -- where a man with good eyesight standing on the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and resting.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. And as for another visible fruit of the contemplative life, higher and more sublime than this, there is none." [DN 2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered 31337 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/15/04 1:39:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 14-03-2004 22:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > >Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the > >mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) > appreciating your and Christine's interest. I need your help since I have no > time to go to the web. What did you see there? What do you have? It would be > helpful if you could post now and then a small portion. I have B.B. > Mahaniddana. I am afraid I cannot give much input, just a little. My other > obligations, Tiika, etc. take much time. ======================= I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. But that's a moot point, anyway, as regards Bhikkhu Bodhi's Mahanidana work. What I have downloaded (from the site that Christine provided, http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm, is a (zipped) pdf file, and I find that I am unable to copy and paste from the pdf file. But everybody who wants to participate in the discussion could download this file, and then we can refer to sections and pages and paragraphs within the document for our discussion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31338 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence dear Chris! > Holy Mackerel! Was that all in the Portugese translation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- heheheh...of course not! --------------------------------------------------------------------- What WAS > the translator smoking? (- or, dare I ask, the poster?) :-) :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Only the Concrete cocoa at office...HAHAHAHAH!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- > (Icaro, I could endure most difficulties, but I think the thing to > break me would be Hostility by Pheasants! O, Lordy! that SUCH a > thing could be!) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bah!!!This typos make me SICH!!! A bunch of hostile pheasants would be a terrible event to endure for any warm-hearted Bhikkhu... but I mean hostility by peasants instead ( and not Hostility by Peanuts, when Charlie Brown decide to become a Bhikkhu, or Hostility by pea-shooters, etc....) Mettaya, Ícaro 31339 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:03am Subject: Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Bhante, Thinking of you today as you start chemotherapy. Your brother monks will be supporting you I know, but please also know that many of us in far away places are also holding you with metta in mindful awareness, 'radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness'. metta and peace, Christine 31340 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 0:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hello Nina, Howard, and anyone interested in a Paticcasamupadda corner, Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: "Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the material presented here, intensive study will probably be most fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? The Texts listed are: 1. The Great Discourse on Causation: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its Commentaries, tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1984, published by the Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka - which can be downloaded from the link below. 2. Section twelve of the Samyutta Nikaya -- (Grouped Discourses) which is named Nidanasamyutta (the connected discourses on causation) (some available at accesstoinsight). 3. Path of Purification, The: Visuddhimagga by Ven. Buddhaghosa ; Chapter 17 I have these three in paper copy. http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 3/15/04 1:39:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > op 14-03-2004 22:28 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a... > > > > >Sounds like a great beginning to me! (I just downloaded the > > >mahanidana file. I own the other two works.) > > appreciating your and Christine's interest. I need your help since I have no > > time to go to the web. What did you see there? What do you have? It would be > > helpful if you could post now and then a small portion. I have B.B. > > Mahaniddana. I am afraid I cannot give much input, just a little. My other > > obligations, Tiika, etc. take much time. > ======================= > I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. But that's a moot > point, anyway, as regards Bhikkhu Bodhi's Mahanidana work. What I have > downloaded (from the site that Christine provided, > http://www.bhavanasociety.org/Readings.htm, is a (zipped) pdf file, and I find that I am unable to copy and paste > from the pdf file. But everybody who wants to participate in the discussion > could download this > file, and then we can refer to sections and pages and paragraphs within the > document for our discussion. > > With metta, > Howard 31341 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Dear Chris: > Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: > > "Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the > material presented here, intensive study will probably be most > fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in > conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time > inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's clear for me that this exegethical ( from "exegesis', a greek word that means something like grammar) way or craft B. Bodhi explains to approaching sutta's matterial will vary at each situation, context, scenario, climate, etc, from the single and straightforward way to thread up or down the sutta till the reforcements and colors reality taints up our lives: Looking at the past we set up all our lives at a definite way, and the sutta is all that is printed at first time, as with as conjoined with the introductory essay ( my former Yoga instructor always said that since nobody reads the introduction of any text, so you can do it without any harm...hahahah!!!!), and at the third time you get the exegesis of a perfect portrait of a past situation. But looking forwards at the own future one need to get hand on many resources to keep clear his own ideas, something like the Gõdel Theorem demonstration of incompletude. So, beginning with this triple way to thread up sutta's interpretation, you can end with your hands full of meanings and interpretations:as a quasi-infinite production of phrases and thoughts from a single grammar! Mettaya, ícaro 31342 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 12 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as a sweet breeze comes, there carries a sweet smell . There smells the scent of Jesmin as the breeze has to pass through bushes of Jesmine. That sweet scent is a smell. It is a smell object. It is smell-sense-base. This means that the smell is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The smell is gandha. It is rupa. It is called gandha arammana or smell object. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness it is called gandha-ayatana or smell-sense-base. That sweet smell is smelled because there is nose. The nose is sense receiver. It is nose-sense-base. This means that the nose is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The nose is ghana. It is called ghana vatthu. It is called ghana pasada. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness, it is called ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There are gandhaayatana ( the sweet smell of Jesmin ) and ghanaayatana ( the nose ). The air supports the smell to reach to the nose. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise smelling-consciousness or ghanavinnana citta. There is the sweet smell of Jesmin. There is gandhaayatana or smell-sense-base. There is the nose. There is ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There arises ghanavinnana citta or smelling-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam 31343 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:29pm Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 12 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as a sweet breeze comes, there carries a sweet smell . There smells the scent of Jesmin as the breeze has to pass through bushes of Jesmine. That sweet scent is a smell. It is a smell object. It is smell-sense-base. This means that the smell is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The smell is gandha. It is rupa. It is called gandha arammana or smell object. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness it is called gandha-ayatana or smell-sense-base. That sweet smell is smelled because there is nose. The nose is sense receiver. It is nose-sense-base. This means that the nose is the base for arising of smelling-consciousness. The nose is ghana. It is called ghana vatthu. It is called ghana pasada. As it is a base for smelling-consciousness, it is called ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There are gandhaayatana ( the sweet smell of Jesmin ) and ghanaayatana ( the nose ). The air supports the smell to reach to the nose. As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise smelling-consciousness or ghanavinnana citta. There is the sweet smell of Jesmin. There is gandhaayatana or smell-sense-base. There is the nose. There is ghanaayatana or nose-sense-base. There arises ghanavinnana citta or smelling-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31344 From: Philip Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Transforming dosa Hello all An afternote to my long post yesterday about the misguided way I've been practicing. It hasn't been pleasant seeing through to the shortcomings of the way I was practicing the brahma-viharas and I spent the day yesterday in a bit of a funk. But later I was encouraged when I felt a sense of energy from staying mindful, free from concepts and I thought of this passage from Nina's Paramis book that I keep coming back to: "We do not see a result of a short moment of mindfulness, it passes and then there are many moments of ignorance. However, one moment of right mindfulness now conditions the arising again of right mindfulness later on. In that way the understanding of the charactersistics of sama and rupa which appear can become clearer. We always want to do things which bring an immediate, tangible result and we don't have enough confidence in the offectiveness of one short moment of mindfulness of what appears now." This is from the chapter on the perfection of determination. Even as I feel the foundation of the way I have been practicing being shaken up, I feel that with every moment there is a chance to start uncovering the foundation of a much more real practice. So I do feel hopeful and determined. Also, as a kind of consolation, I realized that the sense of friendliness towards people here that I developed through the practice I described will remain even if I no longer add to it intentionally by identifying sources of dosa and trying to transform them, or identifying sources of adosa and reinforcing them etc...That practice allowed me to get rid of a lot of hostility and alienation, so I don't want to belittle it completely. I'm sure many beginners could benefit from it. But now I'm on to something that gets at the roots rather than polishing the surface. That's an energizing realization. Thanks to you all. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > P: I'd like to tell you about some further insight I've had about > the way I have been practicing in the wrong way. And why I'm afraid I > can't give up this practice for the time being. 31345 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Nina, I agree. Groups are known through inference (reason), the same as other mind object rupas such as nutriment. I further agree that groups are ultimate realities, not mere concepts, and groups of groups are also ultimate realities. So shovels and tractors and Howard's tree are all realities, not mere concepts. Thanks for the clarification. Larry 31346 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Christine, Howard and Ken H I have not finished yet. Then is satipatthana all about meditation? Another issue is satipatthana all about breathing meditation? Or Sati is also about anytime? Without looking at the commentaries and a fair view from the sutta. We have the most famous candidate - the Anapanasati Sutta - TB translation. <> I have to admit it is about meditation of the breath in a way as said in the sutta. Then we have <> Then from the (the Seven factors of Awakening) <> Can mean this can be anywhere, anytime, because one can remain focus on the body while walking, while eating (see Mahasatipatthana sutta) We have the Mindfulness Immersed in the Body <> Then we have << head hair....urine>> So again in the sutta <> Does this means we have to sit down and to it - as a meditation subject - anytime we can do this if you want to - while eating, washing yourself etc, if we based on the above principle. To be fair we can also do it cross legged - started verbally, then mentally, then color.... as described in Dispeller of Delusion and Visud about meditating as elements (if I have memory dont fail me). Lets conclude with the Mahasatipatthana, We have already breathe, body. Then we have feelings. <> We have consciouness, Mental objects. The word is live I have two conclusion, for those who wish to it during meditation - hey its up to you. But as I said earlier the prerequiste about having right conduct which is conditioned by right understanding. No understanding no gain. For those who like me without the prerequiste, that we can have feelings, mental objects etc anytime, we can do it anytime ;-). Ken O 31347 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Christine > This is often said to *describe* an activity that was common in the > > Buddha's time - not *prescribe* an activity that should be > undertaken by us all. K: It can be describe as an activity, but we cannot say this is not an activity pertaining to meditation. Whether is it presribed, then its up to the individual, I ready give my references for the pre-requisite, its up to them to think whether it is presribed to them or not. A Sujin always said - Right Understanding - which I agreed. But we cannot say it is not an activity prescribe - it should be whether one suitability is there or not. Everyone got their own home nesting ground - if they think it is correct, so be it. But it is never lost, why, because dhamma seeds panna, sooner and later, in this live or future lives, panna will see it ;-). As long as one does not view about permanent self or nihilistic self, and one view there is life after this, this world and that world - there is always hope for everyone. It is question of when, zillions of lives later to have the right understanding - so be it ;-). Ken O 31348 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Learning ....WARNING!! Long post. Hi Sukin and (Nina) > S: Ken, the very idea of `chance' is conditioned by self-view, and > this in turn conditions a `thing to do'. Yes, if you don't ponder > dhamma, then understanding will not grow. But does the idea of > leaving it all to conditions necessarily mean that there is no > reflection and considering of dhamma taking place? On the other > hand, if there *is* the idea of `needing to ponder', will that > necessarily happen? k: the idea that panna will come arise on its own without us considering dhamma it, is also another errorenous - view that it will magically produce on its own. > S: And as Nina says about parroting, if she can be a parrot > sometimes, how more often we are? It is fine to make inferences, > but we may still miss the significance of all this in this very > moment. ;-) k: Parroting has profound benefits. It is not lost because understanding arise due to such consideration of dhamma. Each time one do it, its one up for panna. Keep it up the parroting Nina and I encourage you to do it, then with this, panna will grow, then will panna come unexpectedly and naturally. Without considering dhamma and hoping it will arise from thin air - fat hope ;-). Ken O 31349 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 7:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > I agree. Groups are known through inference (reason), the same as other > mind object rupas such as nutriment. I further agree that groups are > ultimate realities, not mere concepts, and groups of groups are also > ultimate realities. So shovels and tractors and Howard's tree are all > realities, not mere concepts. Thanks for the clarification. > > Larry > ======================= Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of yours is going to sit out there in the cyberland wastes before it is picked up and burned as kindling? ;-))) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31350 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 10:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) > Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of yours is going to sit > out there in the cyberland wastes before it is picked up and burned as > kindling? ;-))) > ========================= I forgot my usual "metta" closing, and I don't want that misinterpreted. With double metta (for now plus the missed one! ;-), Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31351 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, --------------------- H: > I'm sorry, Ken, but I just don't see how you addressed the point that I made about the sutta beginning with formal meditation, > ----------------------- You originally said that the Satipatthana Sutta begins with formal meditation. I believe formal meditation plays no role in the Buddha's Middle Way and so, naturally, I disagreed with you. I `addressed the point' by quoting the Commentary to the Satipatthana-sutta where it refers to the kind of knowledge possessed by dogs and jackals. ------------------ H: > I don't know what the "dogs and jackals" business is all about, > ------------------ It is all about the `general way of knowing' and the `particular way of knowing.' I think they are the same as the `conventional way of knowing' and the `paramattha way of knowing.' When you say `formal practice' or `ongoing mindfulness,' I think you are talking about the general way of knowing. It is a way we share with dogs and jackals -- when they are walking, they know they are walking. The Commentary is at pains to explain that this is NOT the way of knowing meant in the Satipatthana-sutta. The knowing that is meant there directly sees the characteristics of paramattha dhammas (that arise while we are walking etc.). [To digress briefly: Do you agree, Howard, that the kind of knowledge we have in formal meditation is one that we share with animals? I remember an occasion when the Cooran group tried following a `satipatthana instruction manual' written by a modern- day monk. When it came to walking meditation, the instructions were to note, with regard to the left foot, "bending, bending, bending. Lifting, lifting, lifting. Moving, moving, moving. Placing, placing, placing." Then the same for the right foot and so on. That teacher was misguided: he was teaching a conventional way of knowing we share with animals: he should have read the Commentary to the Satipatthana-sutta.] ----------------- H: > and I don't see what point about ongoing mindfulness you think you have made that I would disagree with. ----------------- I did back down a little when you replied, to my first post: ---------------- >> The business about "going" refers to mindfulness practice during ordinary times, as does much of the sutta. I wasn't addressing that, Ken. Note that I said that the sutta *commences* with formal meditation. >> ---------------- I took that to mean you had accepted the point about dogs and jackals knowing they were going, sitting or reclining etc., and you were reminding me that the first part of the Satipatthana sutta is not about going, sitting, reclining; it is about mindfulness of breathing (at the level of anapanasati). I conceded that point but still refused to equate jhana absorption (that takes breath as object) with formal meditation. Were you able to follow my interpretation of, "Just as a clever turner or his apprentice knows, when he is turning short, . . .?" ------------ I just don't get it. ------------ If my writing is unclear, it is not because I can't find the right words; it is because I don't really know what I'm talking about :-) Kind regards, Ken H 31352 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Htoo, I am sorry to hear you feel that my discourse on the Samadhi sutta is full of "flaws." And, since you claim you have read the sutta, and that you are so expert in it, then you shouldn't have any trouble revealing to us all where those many flaws in my argument lie. Many kind regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/15/04 2:00:55 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:18:55 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, Samadhi sutta does not say as you wrote. Please re-read it up. I thoroughly dissected each and every part of your message which are full of flaw. I already linked the reference. Even though you have included that samadhi sutta is your reference, you mentioned it in the wrong way. Htoo Naing >> 31353 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard, I didn't get your first post. It must have bounced. Anyway, I'm sure Nina said something about the reality of groups; and what is a tractor if not a group of rupas? There are two essential points here: Impermanence and the relationship between one and many. Impermanence is obvious, not debatable. Regarding one and many, every "one" is a many. This is called "resolution of the compact" in Vism. Group-hood is the oneness of many. To deny the reality of a group is going too far one way. To assert the independence of "one" is going too far the other way. Larry Vism. XXI 4. ...When the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements, the characyteristic of not-self becomes apparent in its true nature. -------------------------- Howard: Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 10:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of yours is going to sit out there in the cyberland wastes before it is picked up and burned as kindling? ;-))) ========================= I forgot my usual "metta" closing, and I don't want that misinterpreted. With double metta (for now plus the missed one! ;-), Howard 31354 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I saw you wrote to Howard reply that feeling and contact are also > vipaka. That ok. .... It would be easier for me to know what you're referring to if you'd quote my words. This doesn't ring a bell. Perhaps you'd repost so I know the context. ... >Then the questions how about those javana cittas, > other vipakas etc in the sense door proccess. Then again how about > the mind door process. How are they relate to Dependent Origination. .... I think I was referring to cakkhu vi~n~naa.na etc in D.O. as vipaka cittas, conditioned by formations (and other causes). As you say, always lots of qus on D.O. 32 kinds of mundane vipaka citta included with 22 mind consciousness. (Supramundane kinds not inc. because they don't pertain to the round of rebirth). I think Nina and others are going through D.O. slowly, starting with ignorance, so maybe we should wait till we get to consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) before getting into too much detail. What do you think? On our other thread, I note that you only picked up this time on the last short quote I gave from a post of RobK's, so on that happy note of general agreement, I'll let it be. Metta, Sarah ======= 31355 From: Carl Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, I am becoming afraid of you. you seem not in the least interested in the progession of knowledge. Discourse is always an interpretation of current beliefs. It is good to stand strong on current beliefs. It is foolish to remain entrenched. You seem entrenched. I'm worried about you Jeff. (of course I do not read what you write) Cael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, MacDocAZ1@a... wrote: > Hello Htoo, I am sorry to hear you feel that my discourse on the Samadhi > sutta is full of "flaws." And, since you claim you have read the sutta, and that > you are so expert in it, then you shouldn't have any trouble revealing to us > all where those many flaws in my argument lie. > > Many kind regards, > > Jeff Brooks > > In a message dated 3/15/04 2:00:55 PM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > writes: > > << Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:18:55 -0000 > From: "htootintnaing" > Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path > > Dear Jeff, > > Samadhi sutta does not say as you wrote. Please re-read it up. I > thoroughly dissected each and every part of your message which are > full of flaw. I already linked the reference. > > Even though you have included that samadhi sutta is your reference, > you mentioned it in the wrong way. > > Htoo Naing >> 31356 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Sarah I got no problems with the Vipaka cittas - in fact vipakas citta explain DO very clearly. It is the javanas cittas that I am more interested in. Ok Nina has covered the Ignorance part, let get to the formations. I think Visudd rather than Dispelller of Dedulsion (I think they are the same in content) will be a useful guide since most people have it. Visud XVII, 60 [(ii) Formations] Formations are the six mentioned in brief above thus. 'the three namely, formations of merit, etc and the three, namely, the bodily formation etc' (p 44); but in detail there the [first] three formations are twenty-nine volitions, that is to say, the formation of merit consisting of thirteen volitions, counting the eight sense-phere profitable volitions, that occur in virtue etc. and the five fine-material profitable volitions that occue in development [of meditation]; then the formation of demerit consisting of twelve unprofitable volitions that occur in killing living things etc; then the formation of the impertubable consisting in the four profitable volitions associated with the immaterial sphere, which occur in developement [of those meditation] As regards to the other three, the bodily formation is bodily volition, the verbal formation is verbal voliton and the mental formation is merital volition. this triad is mentioned in order to show that at the moment of accumulation of the kamma the formations of merit etc, occur in these [three] kamma doors. For the eight sense-sphere profitable and twelve unprofitable volitions, making twenty, are the bodily formation when they occur in the body door and produce bodily intimation. Those same volitions are called the verbal formation when they occur in the speech door and produce verbal intimation. But volition connected with direct-knowledge is not included here in these two cases because it is not a condition for [resultant rebirth-linking] consciousness later. And like direct- knowledge volition, so also volition connected with agitation is not included; therefore that too should not be included as a condition for [rebirth linking] consciouness. However, all these have ignorance as their condition. And all the twenty-nine volitions are the mental formations when they arise in the mind door without originating either kind of intimation. So this triad comes within the first triad and accordingly, as far as the meaning is concerned, ignorance can be understood as condition simply for formations of merit and so on. The second part is How ignorance condition volition? - akan datang [Malay Word for coming soon..] Thats all for PI - Sarah, no promises on conditinuing this DO. Ken O 31357 From: Carl Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:41pm Subject: Jeff Brooks Is it attention you seek? In previous posts on several boards you claim to be searching for a monastery to begin your holy life. How is it going? Your knowledge and intellegance are undisputed. Why is it that you seem to have no room for comprimise? Why are you having such a difficult time in finding a monastery? perhaps you need to look deep into your heart. Carl 31358 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:42pm Subject: D.O. - Avijjaa Dear Friends in the D.O. corner, Let me requote some more detail on ignorance (avijjaa) and ignorance condition (avijjaapaccayaa)in Dependent Origination. First, we read in the Sammohavinodanii (PTS, Dispeller of Delusion) about the reasons for teaching D.O.in different ways, such as from the beginning, backwards, from the middle and so on. 609 “Of these, the teaching set forth here should be understood as that stated in forward order starting from the beginning for the purpose of showing, to people susceptible to teaching who are confused about the reasons for the process [of existence], that the process [occurs] for its proper reasons,and for the purpose of showing [them] the order of arising. “But why is ignorance here stated at the beginning? How, then, is ignorance the causeless prime cause of the world like the ‘pakati’ (primal nature) of the pakativaadins? It is not causeless: for the cause of ignorance is stated thus: “With the arising of cankers there is the arising of ignorance” (M i 54; see MA i 223).” ***** In the Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, MN9 (~Naanamoli transl), it defines ignorance as the not knowing or fully understanding the Four Noble Truths. “When a noble disciple has thus understood ignorance, the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance....he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma. “And what is ignorance.......? Not knowing about suffering, not knowing about the origin of suffering, not knowing about the cessation of suffering, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of suffering - this is called ignorance.” ***** Here’s a quote from Vibh-a (Dispeller of Delusion), Structure of Conditions, 642 on ignorance which I find helpful: “....Clear comprehension is understanding. It understands rightly the Dhamma of the four truths with each meaning and each reason. But ignorance when it arises does not allow it to understand that quality, thus it is non-clear-comprehension (asampaja~n~na). Delusion (moha) is by deluding. Bewilderment (pamoha) is by bewildering. Confusion (sammoha) is by way of confusing. “It finds what should not be found” (avindiya.m vindati) is ignorance (avijjaa). “It engulfs, causes to sink in the process [of existence]” is the flood of ignorance (avijjogha). “It yokes to the process [of existence]” is the yoke of ignorance (avijjaayoga). Because of arising again and again through not being abandoned, it is the inherent tendency to ignorance (avijjaanusaya). “Like robbers that beset travellers on the road, it besets profitable consciousness, seizes it, plunders it” is the besetting of ignorance (avijjaapariyu.t.thaana).....” ***** cf Vibh-a (Dispeller 617): “.....And it causes to be unknown (avidita) the meaning of heap in the aggregates, the meaning of extent in the bases, the meaning of void in the elements, the meaning of reality in the truths, the meaning of predominance in the faculties, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It makes beings hurry on in all the kinds of generation, destiny, existence, stations of consciousness, abodes of beings in the endless round of rebirths, thus it is ‘ignorance’. It hurries on *(javati)* in ‘woman’, ‘man’, etc that are non-existent (avijjamaana) in the highest sense, it does not hurry on in the existent aggregates, etc, thus it is ‘ignorance’. Furthermore it is ignorance because it conceals the dependent origination and dependently-originated states which are the [physical] basis and the object of eye-consciousness and so on.” ***** I look forward to reading other extracts and further discussion. Metta, Sarah ====== 31359 From: Carl Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination Holy Smokes!! Please wait a second! I surely want to follow a session on D.O. I am a straggler but i'll be there. What a fascinating subjuct. Especially the relation between Abhidhamm and dependent origination. This is pure dhamma. Thank you. Please go slow. As a Buddhapup I am loving it all. Thanks Carl --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I saw you wrote to Howard reply that feeling and contact are also > vipaka. That ok. Then the questions how about those javana cittas, > other vipakas etc in the sense door proccess. Then again how about > the mind door process. How are they relate to Dependent Origination. > > Ken O 31360 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/15/04 11:14:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > [To digress briefly: Do you agree, Howard, that the kind of > knowledge we have in formal meditation is one that we share with > animals? I remember an occasion when the Cooran group tried > following a `satipatthana instruction manual' written by a modern- > day monk. When it came to walking meditation, the instructions were > to note, with regard to the left foot, "bending, bending, bending. > Lifting, lifting, lifting. Moving, moving, moving. Placing, placing, > placing." Then the same for the right foot and so on. That teacher > was misguided: he was teaching a conventional way of knowing we > share with animals: he should have read the Commentary to the > Satipatthana-sutta.] > ============================ Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which there is a restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase in concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends to lead to absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access concentration or moment-to-moment concentration. (There also seem to be some forms of formal meditation such as the silent-illumination meditation of Ch'an which seem to permit entry to absorptive states in which investigative capacity is still active, similar to the jhanas attained by Sariputta as described in the Anupada Sutta.) Ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times, for lack of a better term, is informal meditation, and it constitutes, in my opinion, much if not most of what is discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. With regard to such informal meditation, practicing formal meditation in a regular way conditions the mind, making it better able to carry out this informal meditation in such a way that it constitutes something far different from and more effective than the mindstates of dogs and jackals. The Anapanasati Sutta, which includes more detailing of formal meditation than the Satipatthana sutta, describes itself as a means of implementing the four foundations of mindfulness. In any case, none of this meditation, whether formal or informal, and whether samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana or a mix of these, has commonality with the mental life of animals! BTW, I have no interest, myself, in the Mahasi labeling technique, nor does Bhante Gunaratana, nor does Goenka. I consider that approach to be one which permits concepts to overwhelm direct attention to what actually arises. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31361 From: Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/15/04 11:23:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I didn't get your first post. It must have bounced. Anyway, I'm sure > Nina said something about the reality of groups; and what is a tractor > if not a group of rupas? There are two essential points here: > Impermanence and the relationship between one and many. Impermanence is > obvious, not debatable. Regarding one and many, every "one" is a many. > This is called "resolution of the compact" in Vism. Group-hood is the > oneness of many. To deny the reality of a group is going too far one > way. To assert the independence of "one" is going too far the other way. > > Larry > > Vism. XXI 4. ...When the resolution of the compact is effected by > resolution into elements, the characyteristic of not-self becomes > apparent in its true nature. > ============================== I don't think there is just "real"and "unreal". I think there are many grades and nuances to "being real", going in a variety of directions and involving a variety of parameters. With regard to groups or collections, I think the question is what is it that does the collecting! As far as I'm concerned, it is mind, in its conceptual functioning, that does the collecting. Sometimes this is done randomly, in which case the collection is a completely ungrounded mental construct. More often, as in the case of "my tree," for example, the collection reflects an actual network of relations among paramattha dhammas, and in that case, the mentally constructed collection has greater reality. But I do not consider collective entities to be ultimate actualities, for they are *not* direct, simple elements of experience - they are sankharically constructed elements of experience. My remark about your post being "picked up and burned as kindling", BTW, was a humorous way of saying that I didn't think that your smudging of the lines between conventional and ultimate would be left uncommented on for long on this list! ;-)) With metta, Howard > -------------------------- > Howard: Hi again, Larry - > In a message dated 3/15/04 10:09:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > Heh, heh, heh!! ;-)) > Now, Larry, how long do you think this post of > yours is going to sit out there in the cyberland wastes before it is > picked up and burned as kindling? ;-))) > ========================= > I forgot my usual "metta" > closing, and I don't want that misinterpreted. > With double metta (for now plus the missed one! ;-), Howard > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31362 From: Sarah Date: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:11pm Subject: Dependent Origination - Keeping up with Ken O.....breathless already;-) Hi Ken O, --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I got no problems with the Vipaka cittas - in fact vipakas citta > explain DO very clearly. It is the javanas cittas that I am more > interested in. Ok Nina has covered the Ignorance part, let get to > the formations. I think Visudd rather than Dispelller of Dedulsion > (I think they are the same in content) will be a useful guide since > most people have it. .... ;-) I'm going to go slowly with Nina. You may have no problems, but I'd like to explore very carefully what is in the various texts and encourage everyone to join in and contribute what they find helpful. I think Nina suggested one a week which sounds fine to me. I have lots of other threads on the go too, not to mention the rest of a householder's life to keep up with;-)I'll just follow her lead. Meanwhile, why not add more from the Vism on ignorance and make some contributions to other corners, like Brahmasamyutta, Victor's corner and the Vism corner? If you've still got surplus energy, why not help by finding useful extracts from the Satipatthana sutta and Anapanasati thread to help answer the various questions arising on breath (see Qs and comments from James & Howard)? As for guides in the D.O. corner, I suggest Christine & Howard quote from the Mahanidana and others at the link, you quote from the Vism, Nina and I add more from Dispeller or whatever we find useful. I've already used quite a lot of the Dispeller on line, so it's easy for me to requote from here and I like the translation with extra Pali details. Anyway if you'd also like to run to the end of D.O., quoting as you go, catching any good comments, then run backwards and so on a few times while we're walking slowly along, no problem;-) Maybe you can just repost your sections again when we catch up;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31363 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which there is a > restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase in > concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends to lead to > absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access concentration or > moment-to-moment concentration. (There also seem to be some forms of formal meditation such > as the silent-illumination meditation of Ch'an which seem to permit entry to > absorptive states in which investigative capacity is still active, similar to > the jhanas attained by Sariputta as described in the Anupada Sutta.) > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than my last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the absurdity! ;-)) It is hard to respond in a way that takes such positions seriously. Anyway, glad that you are around to do that. ;-)) Anyway, would you mind explaining a bit about 'silent-illumination'. You have mentioned this before and I don't know what it is. Also, where can I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you tell me the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. Thanks again. Keep up the good work! ;-)) Metta, James ps. My laptop is still being repaired. I am away from the Internet for lengthy periods. May not respond back for a while. 31364 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Keeping up with Ken O.....breathless already;-) Hi Sarah I thought since you are doing fine with them, so I leave them to you. Next time just give me a hint ;-). DO is very fun. Even just typing these two paragraphs on formations, lots of wisdom can be see. Just simple volition formations and how it create the next plane of existence is fascinating. I do not know how to describe the feelings of the incredibility of these two small paragraphs alone. Its like dancing on the table top. Its makes one appreciate the profundity of DO. Thanks mighty Buddha that Visud and Dispeller of Delusion is still around to explain the details. Actually I thought of not involving Nina because she is already tied up with the Visud thread on rupas, then she has the translation of Tendency and at times she will discuss on pali languages. Dont worry, I will get someone to help offlist if we need details or commentary explanation ;-). Ken O 31365 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Philip, I haven’t ‘spoken’ to you for a while. --- Philip wrote: > > Finding the Abdhidhamma thrilled me at first, but now it's got me a > bit edgy, because I sense all the ways I've been seeing things were > wrong understanding. Letting go of comforting concepts ain't easy, so > I probably won't let go of them right away. But rather than cling to > them blindly I will be holding on to them gingerly. .... S: Understood, but it’s only more conditioned thinking - nothing to feel nervous about. No need to decide (or self that can) whether to let go or not of any ‘comforting concepts’. As rt view grows, it takes care of the rest, ‘illuminating’ where it was previously ‘dark’ with ignorance. .... <...> > Ph: Since my knowledge is more limited than anyone else here, I am > relieved to read this! Did I say ignorant worldlings"? Is there > nothing in between "enlightened" and "ignorant worldings?" .... S: No need to compare;-) Usually we just read about worldlings and the ariyans, divided into learners- sekha and arahants. For more details on Ariyans see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm Of course, amongst the worldlings, there are some divisions given too - the one developing satipatthana and on the way to becoming a sotapanna and the outsider not developing the faculties at all. Then of course, there are the stages of insight and so on. ... > I guess I thought James' statement about only the enlightened being > able to truly liberate others was a bit paradoxical -it made me > wonder what we are all doing here <...> ... S: I would say that in the end, it’s only panna and the other 8fold path factors that bring about any liberation. Like the example I gave about Vikkali yesterday - he listened at length to the Buddha, following him around everywhere, but his faculties were not balanced until the end(too much faith, too little wisdom), so many conditions are involved. You pick up ADL at the right time and the Abhidhamma just clicks into place. For someone else, it’s the reverse. .... <...> > The Ariyan who has developed direct knowedge of > realities can explain the Dhamma to other more clearly than the non- > ariyan and he can truly help other to develop the eightfold path > leading to enlightenment." <..> .... S: See comments above. I think the point is merely that we can only help or guide each other according to our limited wisdom. Naturally, someone who is an Ariyan disciple has more direct knowledge than a wordling, but of course there are many other factors involved. Outside a Buddha-sasana, a Pacceka Buddha is not able to guide others to enlightenment. In your other posts, you’ve also indicated how factors such as encouraging each other to read, sharing material on line, archives and so on ‘can play an important role in the arising of kusala in others...’. I agree with all this (otherwise of course we wouldn’t be running the list and braving the various storms in our stride (most the time;-)). The quote you gave from ‘Metta’, thinking of the well being of others, means we don’t need to think about whether we’re qualified to help and so on. When there’s metta, there’s no thought about oneself. We just do our best when there are opportunities. Btw, I loved your description of ‘Metta Land’. This is the point I was trying to make to Jack and others. We have to be so very honest and truthful to really know those cittas like the concern and care for our loved ones, for example. You mentioned you were ‘taking sobhana steroids to enhance’ your ‘performance in the loving-kindness field. Like real steroids there are harmful side effects to this practice’.;-) I’d say, just develop understanding whilst taking the steroids and the practice, the brahma viharas and the parami will then take care of themselves. Any time is OK, even when you’ve just taken a mouthful of steroids;-) [Ken O, NOTE: I’m not advising him to take steroids;-)]. Pls keep digging up from the archives and sharing quotes and comments from your various readings of ADL, Metta, Perfections and so on. Metta, Sarah ====== p.s I hope your children’s books go well. The person who might give you helpful advice (if you need any) is James - he has many talents. Also, see a selection of his posts to children, under ‘Children - letters to’ in U.P. =========== 31366 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi Howard, As we’re now going through D.O. slowly and carefully, I’m going to leave this thread and I’m sure many of the points will come up when we get to the various sections. Just briefly, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I disagree, Sarah. Avijja is erroneous, but it needs to be seen > for > what it is, discussed, and studied, because we are immersed in it. The > sense of > "I" and the sense of "mine" are erroneous but need to be discussed. .... S: Agreed. I think I was referring to the phrase ‘subjective knowing’, but now I understand what you mean by the terms and why you use them. .... >The > propensity to I-making leads to the vi~n~nana-namarupa vortex that lies > at the core > of the dependent origination of dukkha in the non-arahant, and the > unraveling > of which leads to liberation. Because of ignorance and > ignorance-corrupted > fabricating activities, experience (citta) is defiled and seemingly > split at > every moment into a knowing subject facing its opposite number, the > object of that > (nonexistent) knowing subject. .... S: OK, no problem here. .... >There is no subject without object, and > no > object without subject. This is the usual mode of experience even of > non-arahant > ariyans. .... S: You start to lose me here. Objects are experienced by cittas regardless of whether it is worldling, non-arahant ariyan or arahant experience. Visible object is always experienced by seeing consciousness. (Or we can say, there is the seeing and the visible object experienced, if you prefer). Also, remember a sotapanna has no more wrong view of self or idea of subjectivity as you’d put it. Even for worldlings, when there isn’t any wrong view arising, there’s no idea of self either. I’m sorry, but I just find this confusing. .... >Without seeing the nature of our deluded state, we are like > prisoners > who think our prison is a luxury resort. > Without the delusive subject-object split, there is just > experiential > content of sights, sounds, tastes, odors, body sensings, and mental > experiences - no subject facing these, and these not things facing a > knowing subject. > The subject versus object split is what seems to be reality to > non-arahants. ... S: I agree with the comments, see above for the last sentence. ... It > constitutes our cell door, and it is important for us to carefully > examine > this door to see what it is made of, to see how solid or flimsy it is, > and to see > whether it is really locked. > ------------------------------------------------------ S: Ok, you’ve put this well, Howard. So we’re now looking at ignorance in different ways in D.O. Look forward to anymore of your contributions on it. Metta, Sarah p.s I had meant I was usually slow in responding (KenO: - you’re most welcome to help out or contribute or take over *any* threads I’m involved in - ppl will soon tell you if they find the barking too noisy ;-)). Howard, I agree we probably have some ‘fundamental disagreements’, but at least we can discuss them which is more than I can do with most my close friends;-) =============================================== 31367 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's new religion - Idiosyncratism (was patience and lots more) Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, of course, we Yanks are strong on innovation! ;-)) The word > 'idiosyncrasy' is in the language, and the other is not, but the other > is of the > right form to be the name of a religion - like Mormonism, Judaism, > Jainism, and > Buddhism. This is the natural course of extending a productive > linguistic > form. > Oh, okay - so we bastardize the language!! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------ .... S: thanks for explaining the logic of how it works anyway;-) .... > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I miss the relevance in this. In any case, I see nothing wrong > about > the word 'devotee'. > ---------------------------------------------- ... S: I was probably barking up the wrong tree here. I meant to suggest that it would be more appropriate to consider oneself or others as devotees of the teachings, of the Dhamma, than of the person, if we wish to use it. Even when one pays one's respect to the Buddha, it is the qualities rather than the person that one respects. .... > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sometimes, Sarah, there can be too many egg shells to walk on. > ---------------------------------------------------- .... S: Agreed.... but learning to tip-toe a little is good exercise;-) If we don't see the egg-shells and step acidentally, no need for any remorse either;-) .... > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It may or may not have been useful, but compared to orthodox > Theravada, I think it would be correct to refer to Nagarjuna's > perspective as > idiosyncratic. And compared to the Brahmanism at the time of the Buddha, > it would be > correct to refer to the Buddha's dhamma as idiosyncratic. In fact, in > that > context, it is correctly referred to as heterodox. Different from the > norm is not > wrong, per se. And, in any case, if one thinks that a position *is* > wrong, it > is perfectly appropriate to say so! > A number of people here frequently speak against formal > meditation > practice, saying that it is not only not the Dhamma, but is an exercise > in > "self". Often this position is proselytized, and at times people are > criticized for > meditating (for their own good). This is perfectly legitimate. But it is > also > perfectly legitimate to counter this, even quite strongly. We should > all, of > course, attempt to say what we say without harshness. > ------------------------------------------------- ... S: Good points;-) No argument here;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 31368 From: Carl Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:20am Subject: Citta OK, Citta. What i want to know is this: how tall is a citta? how much does a citta weigh? Is a citta round, oblong or square? Can a citta move? Does a citta have a front and a back? Can this citta become the next citta? How does this citta know the information from that citta? How is information passed from this citta to that citta? It's no wonder that abhidhamma causes me headaches!! Thank god for tylenol thanks Carl 31369 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: Citta Hello Carl, You may find it helpful to check Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary - A Manual of Buddhist Terms when you find terms confusing: e.g. He gives 13 meanings for citta, and citta+ - here are a few. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm "citta: 'mind', 'consciousness', 'state of consciousness', is a synonym of mano (q.v.) and viññána (s. khandha and Tab. 1). Dhs. divides all phenomena into consciousness (citta), mental concomitants (cetasika, q.v.) and corporeality (rúpa). In adhicitta, 'higher mentality', it signifies the concentrated, quietened mind, and is one of the 3 trainings (s. sikkhá). The concentration (or intensification) of consciousness is one of the 4 roads to power (s. iddhipáda). citta-kkhana: 'consciousness-moment', is the time occupied by one single stage in the perceptual process or cognitive series (cittavíthi; s. viññána-kicca). This moment again is subdivided into the genetic (uppáda), static (thiti) and dissolving (bhanga) moment. One such moment is said in the commentaries to be of inconceivably short duration and to last not longer than the billionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning. However that may be, we ourselves know from experience that it is possible within one single second to dream of innumerable things and events. In A. I, 10 it is said: "Nothing, o monks, do I know that changes so rapidly as consciousness. Scarcely anything may be found that could be compared with this so rapidly changing consciousness." (App. khana). cittánupassaná: 'contemplation of consciousness', is one of the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.) cittass'ekaggatá: 'one-pointedness of mind', is a synonym of concentration, or samádhi (q.v.) citta-víthi: 'process of consciousness'; s. viññána-kicca. citt'ekaggatá = cittass'ekaggatá (q.v.)." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > OK, Citta. > What i want to know is this: how tall is a citta? how much does a > citta weigh? Is a citta round, oblong or square? Can a citta move? > Does a citta have a front and a back? Can this citta become the next > citta? How does this citta know the information from that citta? How > is information passed from this citta to that citta? It's no wonder > that abhidhamma causes me headaches!! Thank god for tylenol > thanks Carl 31370 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: Engaged Buddhism (through each interaction) Hello Doret, and all, I've been interested recently in thinking about how our right efforts or exertions or lack of same intersect with those of others through indiviual interactions. As we know, right effort is usually defined in terms of the following exertions: "There are these four right exertions. Which four? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. These are the four right exertions. -- SN XLIX.1 When I came across this group and the Abhidhamma, I had to rethink my understanding of this sutta, not seeing it in the self- directed sense I'd seen it in before. Rather than self-directed exertions carried out by some kind of will power, I guess these are processes that are constantly rising and falling in each of us all the time. And when we interact with others, our process of rising and falling of these factors engages with the process of others. Of course the rising and falling is conditioned, but to some small degree at least our considerate behaviour or lack of it could play a role in what factors rise or fall in the other. I think it's quite energizing to think of this engaging of the gears of rising and falling citta. We have a responsibility to each other. I've never responded well to the great vows to save all other sentient beings, but I call the above sort of thing "micro-Mahayana" Just as micro-economics analyzes individual transactions, the above considers indiviual interactions between people. I think we are always engaged Buddhists, by definition, because of the way our interactions with others can have some - albeit infinitesmal - effect on the rising and falling of kusala or akusala factors in others. I think it makes living in a crowded country like I do very interesting. Of course, this goes on between people whether they are Buddhist or not, but we Buddhists can throw at least a wee bit of panna into the mix and ease the world a micromillimeter or so in a wiser direction. Metta, Phil P.s Hi Sarah. Thanks for your kind message. I am weaning myself off the sabhanna steroids with the help of the above kind of thinking. Still far too conceptual and probably not realistic, but not as rosy-coloured as some of my brahma-viharas excesses. And I have faith that working to uproot defilements will lead to rising of a more ultimately real metta. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Doret Kollerer wrote: > Dear Friends, > > So far I have observed that engaged Buddhism is practiced only by some Zen > Buddhists. I have been told that Buddha did not advise actually entering the > social struggle, e.g. against the death penalty, against war, etc. Is it > true that Theravadin Buddhists remain aloof from social engagement because > they focus their attention only inward on liberation? > > With metta, > Doret 31371 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view_-_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.11 Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > This is about self-view - but has a strange ending. "Then Ven. > Isidatta -- having set his lodging in order and taking his bowl & > robes -- left Macchikasanda. And in leaving Macchikasanda, he was > gone for good and never returned. " I wonder why ... .... S: It reminded me of Victor setting up the study corner and then leaving mysteriously;-) ... > > Ven. Bodhi quotes the commentary: > "Neither Spk nor Spk-pt gives an explanation for his sudden > departure. He may have seen the danger in fame and honour and > preferred to dwell in complete anonymity." .... S: I think you gave the answer in your subsequent post with the extract from the Dict of Pali Proper Names: "Isidatta, being pleased with the account given of the Buddha's religion, entered the Order under Maha-Kaccana and in due course became an arahant." I didn't quite work out the chronology or whether he is already an arahant, but if so the above would not apply. Later in the extract you gave, it said: "But the same day Isidatta left Macchikasanda and never returned. Because, says buddhaghosa (AAi.210), he did not wish to stay after having been recognised." Perhaps B.Bodhi hadn't see this as it's in a different commentary. Why didn't he wish to stay? Maybe because his great wisdom was evident and he was the junior monk?? Metta, Sarah ======= 31372 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.14-15_ Hi Christine, I hope Victor sees all your good efforts in his corner;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > These two sutta excerpts are about the fetters of conceit, > restlessness, and anxiety. I wonder what Sariputta is experiencing > if he is not experiencing sorrow when he says "Still, I would have > this thought ..." Why is conceit involved in sorrow? <...> >Still, I would have this thought: 'What a great being, of > great might, of great prowess, has disappeared! For if the Blessed > One were to remain for a long time, that would be for the benefit of > many people, for the happiness of many people, out of sympathy for > the world; for the welfare, benefit, & happiness of human & divine > beings.'" ... S: I read it as an expression of his respect and wisdom and a statement of fact. .... > "Surely," [said Ven. Ananda,] "it's because Ven. Sariputta's I-making > & mine-making and obsessions with conceit have long been well > uprooted that even if there were change & alteration in the Teacher, > there would arise within him no sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, > or despair." > > > [SN XXI.2] .... S: With the up-rooting of all the defilements (of all attachment - a general statement of this), no more conditions for any grief as I read it. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned you liked Punnika’s verses (Thig X11). She was the water-carrier who went down to the water to escape her mistresses’ beatings. After becoming an arahant she spoke the verses you quoted. I find her story very interesting. In the commentary, it mentions that under Buddha Vipassi, her virtue was perfected and also her learning in the Three Pitakas. Being so knowledgable in the Dhamma she became a teacher of it. The same happened under 5 succeeding Buddhas. “But because of her tendency to pride, she was unable to root out the defilements (kilesa).” She didn’t even become a sotapanna. As a result of this pride (kamma), in this Buddha-sasana, she was born as a slave (in Anathapindika’s household). She heard a discourse (Lion’s Roar, MN) and became a sotapanna. After converting the brahmin (as in the verses), she was given her freedom and permission to become a bhikkhuni. She soon became an arahant. =============================================== 31373 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view_-_Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being_Unfettered'_§_2.11 Hello Sarah, all, Victor took a leave of absence from dsg from 2nd of March to the 16th of March, and I agreed to help out in the study corner until he returned (not, of course, if it is in six lives time :-)). Hop up on the roof with the binoculars and start scanning the horizon - I'm sure he'll come into sight at any moment. :-) Ven. Isidatta is a puzzle - but there are many people in the Suttas that I'd like to know more about. Maybe a thread for later in the year - when we all understand the Dhamma and Dependent Origination?:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 31374 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi Howard and James H: Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which > there is a restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase in concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends to lead to absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access concentration or moment-to-moment concentration. k: I dont think that is the case for satipatthana. I have said it can be a meditation but if you said that meditation is considered a restriction of the scope of attention - that is not tenable. Lets look at Breathing Sutta, if you see further down the sutta <> So the object has been change a number of times, from inconstancy, to dispassion to cessation to relinquishement. k: then you say an increases in concentration - If you then look at the Breathing sutta << On that occassion the monk remains focusd on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert & mindful -- subduing greed & distress>> So it is not just breathing concentration or a single object. Neither does it say there is an increase in concentration - in fact it said it is the increase of insight by looking at the word subduing greed & distress. H: Ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times, for lack of a better term, is informal meditation, and it constitutes, in my opinion, much if not most of what is discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. k: Agreed - except for the word informal. Be it formal or informal when a citta meets an object and foucsing on it and understand that the citta and object is not me or I or myself - that is meditation. H: With regard to such informal meditation, practicing formal meditation in a regular way conditions the mind, making it better able to carry out this informal meditation in such a way that it constitutes something far different from and more effective than the mindstates of dogs and jackals. k: I dont think that is supported in the sutta. No where it said one must follow this prescribed formulation as suggested by you. There is no need to be feel detach or dispassion during "formal meditation" it can be experience right here and now. Neither does it suggest that such dispassion only be enhance by initial meditation, it is the other waking hours of not meditation that are equally important. We dont need to sit down on one corner to realise the detachment of feelings or consciouness. While we are alert, we cannot say we dont want to see etc. In the same way I said Doret, we dont need to wait for a particular hour or to sit in one place to understand Dhamma. If dhamma is not understand as right here and now as you said also normal activities, then it is not of use. I dont think one can meet pleasant object when sitting down, or one can hear unpleasant words while sitting down. It is normal activities that we meet all these challenges and when panna arise, there is called satipatthana. Dhamma dont wait for us to realise, it is up to us to live it in this very moment. Ken O 31375 From: Sarah Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Dear Bhante, I'd like to add to Christine's note and wish you well with the tratment. Azita always reminds us to have 'courage, patience and good cheer' and I'm sure these qualities will help you at this time. With metta, Sarah p.s I understand that ginger drinks (boiled ginger water with honey added or ginger pop) are helpful for counteracting any side-effects from chemo. =========================== --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Bhante, > > Thinking of you today as you start chemotherapy. Your brother monks > will be supporting you I know, but please also know that many of us > in far away places are also holding you with metta in mindful > awareness, 'radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness'. 31376 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:20am Subject: Mon Visuddhimagga ces't arrivée !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Finally my BPS translation of Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga arrived at my favourite retailer,that was very gentle to send an E-mail to notice me!!! Complete!!! Unabridged!!! Hardcover ($$$) !!! Finally an adequate food for my illusory soul...HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! And Nooowww... the chapter 2, chapter 3, chapter 4... chapter xiv...chapter... Mettaya, Ícaro 31377 From: nidive Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:36am Subject: Kayagata-sati Sutta Hi Group, This is my understanding of the Kayagata-sati Sutta. Comments are welcome. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html (1) There are 10 methods to develop mindfulness immersed in the body. (A) Mindfulness of Breathing (B) Mindfulness of Bodily Posture (C) Being Fully Alert of Bodily Actions (D) Reflection of the Bodily Parts (E) Reflection on the 4 Great Elements within the Body (F) Reflection on Decomposed Corpses (G) Entering & Remaining in the 1st Jhana (H) Entering & Remaining in the 2nd Jhana (I) Entering & Remaining in the 3rd Jhana (J) Entering & Remaining in the 4th Jhana (2) The aim of practising these methods of developing mindfulness immersed in the body is to make the "mind gather & settle inwardly, grow unified & centered". (3) In one whose mind is gathered, settled inwardly, unified and centered, the six higher knowledges are made available. (4) All serious practitioners intend on nibbana must develop mindfulness immersed in the body, or Mara gains a foothold. (5) Attainment of the jhanas is not an absolute requisite for obtaining the six higher knowledges; it is a requisite if and only if the practioner's principal method to develop mindfulness immersed in the body is one of the 4 jhanas. (6) It is of utmost importance to make the mind unified and centered. There are no excuses for not doing 'special' meditation. All 10 methods of developing mindfulness immersed in the body are 'specially' formulated by the Buddha. No serious practitioner is excused from all 10 of them. Regards, Swee Boon 31378 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta Hi Carl Citta simply is consciousness and its function is to cognize an object. But if you really very interested in a detail analysis of Citta then you should read A Sujin - Summary of Paramatthadhamma http://www.triplegem.net/ go to hyper link abidhamma (use crtl f to find it) then click onto it and go the this hyperlink Paramatthadhamma, Summary of - Very good material to last you a few days ;-). C: What i want to know is this: how tall is a citta? how much does a citta weigh? Is a citta round, oblong or square? Can a citta move? > Does a citta have a front and a back? K: Immaterial so no physical attributes except that citta rise and cease in extremely fast - a few millions of cittas arise and falls by one snapping of a finger or flash of a lightning. (faster than light ;-) ). C: Can this citta become the next citta? k: No, because each citta will arise and cease (die - no longer appear). It can be an object of an the next citta though C: How does this citta know the information from that citta? How is information passed from this citta to that citta? k: In a few ways. a. Since a citta can be an object of another citta, so information is passed. b. So at times it is habitual or past conditioning or the technical term - latency and also accumulations. c. A cetasika known as sanna can pass the information from one citta to another. That all I can think of. May not be accurate - dont worry Sarah will correct me if I am wrong ;-). C: It's no wonder that abhidhamma causes me headaches!! k: Thats normal, a lot of us experience the same way as you when we first started and not discounting the pali words that I have to learn ;-). Sometimes I wander, was I insane when I first started it. But determination also wins in the end. Its worth it. I have never regret learning Abidhamma. It will bring lots of benefit for your happines for a long time to come and also countless lives to come because panna accumulates ;-). In fact I have not come across anyone that does not benefit from learning Abidhamma. k: Feel free to ask any qn - dont worry I think no one have broken my record of asking the most number of silly qns when I was first in DSG. Thats why they partly called me the barking terrier (not so good to tell you all my bad things here). Ken O 31379 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:14am Subject: Re: Kayagata-sati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: Hi Group, This is my understanding of the Kayagata-sati Sutta. Comments are welcome. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html (1) There are 10 methods to develop mindfulness immersed in the body. (2) The aim of practising these methods of developing mindfulness immersed in the body is to make the "mind gather & settle inwardly, grow unified & centered". (3) In one whose mind is gathered, settled inwardly, unified and centered, the six higher knowledges are made available. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Swee Boon, This is not a comment. But a question. What are the 6 higher knowledges? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 31380 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, James - In a message dated 3/16/04 3:27:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Ken - > > > > Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which > there is a > >restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly an increase > in > >concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the meditation tends > to lead to > >absorption; if it is less so, it tends to either access > concentration or > >moment-to-moment concentration. (There also seem to be some forms > of formal meditation such > >as the silent-illumination meditation of Ch'an which seem to > permit entry to > >absorptive states in which investigative capacity is still active, > similar to > >the jhanas attained by Sariputta as described in the Anupada > Sutta.) > > > > I find this post to be an excellent explanation (much better than my > last 'dismayed' post to Sarah...I just can't help it! LOL! I am > genuinely dismayed by some of the things I read in this group. I > don't know if I should laugh or cry at the absurdity! ;-)) It is > hard to respond in a way that takes such positions seriously. > Anyway, glad that you are around to do that. ;-)) Anyway, would you > mind explaining a bit about 'silent-illumination'. You have > mentioned this before and I don't know what it is. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is the Ch'an predecessor to Soto Zen "just sitting" meditation,and has recently been popularized by Ven Sheng-Yen. You might find material on it if you do a web search for him, or you can get a copy of his book "Hoofprints of the Ox". --------------------------------------------------------- Also, where can > > I find the Anupada Sutta? I can't find it online but if you tell me > the collection reference I can find it in my printed copies. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is in the MN collection, if you own that. In any case, it is available at the web site http://www.vipassana.info/111-anupada-e.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- Thanks > > again. Keep up the good work! ;-)) > > Metta, James > ps. My laptop is still being repaired. I am away from the Internet > for lengthy periods. May not respond back for a while. > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31381 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clearing up misunderstandings Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/16/04 4:07:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > >There is no subject without object, and > >no > >object without subject. This is the usual mode of experience even of > >non-arahant > >ariyans. > .... > S: You start to lose me here. Objects are experienced by cittas regardless > of whether it is worldling, non-arahant ariyan or arahant experience. > Visible object is always experienced by seeing consciousness. (Or we can > say, there is the seeing and the visible object experienced, if you > prefer). Also, remember a sotapanna has no more wrong view of self or idea > of subjectivity as you’d put it. Even for worldlings, when there isn’t any > wrong view arising, there’s no idea of self either. > I’m sorry, but I just find this confusing. > ================================ In an arahant, or momentarily if anyone loses sense of self, phenomena are experienced, but not as objects. Without a subject, there are no objects. There is a mutaual dependence between the two. I've experienced loss of subjectivity, and with that came loss of objects - but experience continued. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31382 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the self. . . how?/Jack >S: My question to you would be this:Why give the attention to the breath in the first place? Why select any particular object? jack: First, because the Buddha suggested it. Second because it is too difficult for me and anybody I have ever known to get a conceptual understanding of, for example, anatta and then immediately go out in the bustle of everyday life with all its distractions and develop an experiential understanding of it. It is not as hard when we follow the Buddha's directions and use meditation to slow everything down in a quiet environment, pick one object of meditation and then be mindful of all aspects including anatta of that object. After practicing this on our cushion day after day, year after year, we are able to see, truly see, anatta in all phenomena in our life off the cushion. Somewhere the Buddha said that if we can see clearly in one moment we are enlightened. I read this to mean that if we can see clearly one phenomena, our breath, for instance, in any environment, then we are enlightened. Why pick an environment where there are lots of distractions? Sarah and all, This is a follow-up to my note above. I was looking for the sutta where I think it said that true awareness of one breath results in enlightenment. I haven’ t found that yet. Catherine, you seem to be able to find anything in the suttas. Can you help? (By the way, how do you do a search for a sutta phrase or subject?) Sarah, I did find the following in the Anapanasati Sutta that answers your question. “Bhikkhus, when mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it is of great fruit and great benefit. When mindfulness of breathing is developed and cultivated, it fulfills the four foundations of mindfulness. When the four foundations of mindfulness are developed and cultivated, they fulfill the seven enlightenment factors. When the seven enlightenment factors are developed and cultivated, they fulfill true knowledge and deliverance.â€? I was waiting in a hospital corridor for test results on my wife early this morning. (The biopsy came out benign. Great news.) I was reading one of my favorite authors, the Thai monk Dhiravamsa’s book, The Way of Non-Attachment and found the following that might be of interest. “It is not only perception that is perverted and distorted; thought is also a distortion. Thought distorts reality and reality cannot be reached through thought. In the West particularly, the way of thinking is used in the attempt to understand truth. This is like scratching your foot when you have your shoe on. You do not scratch the skin, but only the shoe. The intellect can touch only the symbol of truth but not the truth itself. This is why we have so many difficulties in understanding the truth. But when we give up this approach it is much easier. Intellectual people find it very difficult to understand, because they try to reach the truth in their own way. They want to reach the new, but carry with them the old consciousness, which causes a reflection of the old on the new, distorting the understanding and conditioning the consciousness till further, on a deeper level, by the perversion of thought.â€? jack 31383 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:40am Subject: Sensing dhamma as they really are ( 13 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Once there arises a sour taste in the mouth as remanents of food are fermented. That sourness sensed is a taste. It is a taste object. It is taste-sense-base. This means that the taste is the base for arising of tasting-consciousness. The taste is rasa. It is rupa. It is called rasa arammana or taste object. As it is a base for tasting-consciousness. it is called rasa-ayatana or taste-sense-base. That sourness is tasted because there is tongue. The tonguee is sense receiver. It is tongue-sense-base. This means that the tongue is the base for arising of tasting-consciousness. The tongue is jivha. It is called jivha vatthu. It is called jivha pasada. As it is a base for tasting-consciousness, it is called jivhaayatana or tongue-sense-base. There are rasaayatana ( the sourness in the mouth ) and jivhaayatana ( the tongue ). The saliva supports the taste to reach to the tongue ( taste buds ). As these matters are already attended with full understanding, there is a right direction so as to arise tasting-consciousness or jivhavinnana citta. There is the sour taste in the mouth. There is rasayatana or taste-sense-base. There is the tongue. There is jivhaayatana or tongue-sense-base. There arises jivhavinnana citta or tasting-consciousness. It falls away as soon as it arises. The meditator perceives these and there is no one doing anything. There is no him or his in the whole process of understanding.There is no trace of self or there is no trace of atta all in these dhamma. They just arise and fall away. There is no evidence of permanence. They all are impermanence. They all are anicca as they all are impermanent. As they are impermanent, there is nothing to be attached and there is no trace of pleasure or sukha. All are unsatisfactory. All are dukkha. No one is controlling all these process. As there is no control, they all are anatta. May all beings see dhamma as they really are. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... JourneyToNibbana@yahoogroups.com 31384 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Jose (Ven. Yanatharo) Venerable Bhante, My husband and I would like to join in Christine's good wishes. We are thinking of you very often, Nina. op 15-03-2004 20:03 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Dear Bhante, > > Thinking of you today as you start chemotherapy. Your brother monks > will be supporting you I know, but please also know that many of us > in far away places are also holding you with metta in mindful > awareness, 'radiating with a full heart loving thoughts of kindness'. 31385 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance, Release-Recognizing_the_Dhamma_'Being Unfettered' § 2.16-17 Dear Christine, Very good sutta. It is like the quote from the Dispeller of Delusion, but substitute dukkha for stress. This is the essence. And the clear water, like the mirror of Dhamma. Now he clearly sees all realities, he sees the noble Truths. No more murk. He has good eyesight: the eye of wisdom. Nina. op 15-03-2004 19:49 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > § 2.16. > "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the > origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not > knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This > is called ignorance." > > [SN XII.2] > > > § 2.17. > "Just as if there were a pool of water in a mountain glen -- clear, > limpid, and unsullied -- where a man with good eyesight standing on > the bank could see shells, gravel, and pebbles, and also shoals of > fish swimming about and resting, and it would occur to him, 'This > pool of water is clear, limpid, and unsullied. Here are these shells, > gravel, and pebbles, and also these shoals of fish swimming about and > resting.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, > purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, > malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk > directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental > fermentations. He discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is > stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation > of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... > These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of > fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is > the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus > knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of > sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of > ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, great > king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, > more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. And as for > another visible fruit of the contemplative life, higher and more > sublime than this, there is none." [DN 2] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/recognizing.html#unfettered > 31386 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination, ignorance. Dear friends, Just a few personal thoughts on ignorance. I need to be reminded that we are in the cycle, I tend to forget. The D.O. can help me to cope with the contrarieties of my life. Just as we read in the sutta about five things to be often contemplated (Gr S, Book of the Fives, Ch VI, §7) : old age, sickness, death, the variableness of what is near and dear, being heir to one's kamma. This is actually D.O. I find the text I quoted on ignorance helpful: <...this ignorance does not allow the knowing, seeing and penetration of the true and essential characteristics of the Truth of suffering and keeps it concealed and covered and entangled, it is therefore called "unknowing regarding suffering". At the moment of ignorance we do not know that there is ignorance, it is so treacherous, so dark, covering up the truth. It permeates my whole life. It is a latent tendency so powerful, only to be eradicated at the attainment of arahatship. It is present with each akusala citta, and conditions akusala. I read in the Dispeller of Delusion (626, p. 168): <...ignorance has the characteristic of unknowing, its nature is confusing, it manifests itself as concealing, its proximate cause is the cankers (aasava)...> When we reflect on ignorance, the greatest danger, we are reminded not to neglect the development of right understanding of any dhamma appearing now. It can condition a sense of urgency. Nina. op 15-03-2004 22:01 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > It's clear for me that this exegethical ( from "exegesis', a greek > word that means something like grammar) way or craft B. Bodhi > explains to approaching sutta's matterial will vary at each > situation, context, scenario, climate, etc, from the single and > straightforward way to thread up or down the sutta till the > reforcements and colors reality taints up our lives.... 31387 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Dear Christine, Howard and friends, Thank you for your suggestions. To answer Howard: H: I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. N:Let it depend on conditions, it can be a leaderless thread, it can lead its own life. It should be without constraint or a feeling of obligation. Now and then when you come across a text or have a thought you could perhaps post it. op 15-03-2004 21:36 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: > > "Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the > material presented here, intensive study will probably be most > fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in > conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time > inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." > > Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? > N: I have B.B.'s book. This sutta is the most difficult, and it does not start with ignorance. As I quoted from the Dispeller, there are four different ways of teaching the D.O. We could first go over the links starting with ignorance, and maybe after that go into other approaches? Also, we may take longer than one week for each link, it does not matter. Nina. Ch: The Texts listed are: > > 1. The Great Discourse on Causation: The Mahaanidaana Sutta and its > Commentaries, tr. Bhikkhu Bodhi, 1984, published by the Buddhist > Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka - which can be downloaded from > the link below. > > 2. Section twelve of the Samyutta Nikaya -- (Grouped Discourses) > which is named Nidanasamyutta (the connected discourses on > causation) (some available at accesstoinsight). > > 3. Path of Purification, The: Visuddhimagga by Ven. Buddhaghosa ; > Chapter 17 31388 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:20am Subject: Vis. lightness triad. Dear Larry and friends, I want to add something to the Vis text from the Tiika: 65. These three, however, are not found apart from each other. Still their difference may be understood as follows. Lightness of matter is alteration of matter such as any light (agile) state in material instances, as in one who is healthy, any non-slowness, any manner of light transformability in them, which is originated by conditions that prevent any disturbance of elements capable of creating sluggishness of matter. N: The Tiika explains about disturbance of the elements (dhaatukkhobho) as disturbance by winds (air in the belly), bile and phlegm. As quoted from ³Visuddhimagga² (VIII, 28) about the disturbance of the elements: .<.. But with the disturbance of the earth element even a strong man¹s life can be terminated if his body becomes rigid, or with the disturbance of one of the elements beginning with water if his body becomes flaccid and putrifies with a flux of the bowels, etc., or if he is consumed by a bad fever, or if he suffers a severing of his limb-joint ligatures. When one is healthy, there are conditions for lightness, plasticity and wieldiness of body.> The Tiika mentions as supporting conditions that obstruct disturbances: As we learnt these three factors (all three paramattha dhammas) originate the lightness triad. As we read in the Expositor: <... Thus ascetics say, ³Today we have agreeable food... today we have suitable weather... today our mind is one-pointed, our body is light, plastic and wieldy.²> Note the word today: these three factors do not always originate the lightness triad. Nobody can choose whether they operate or not. But when they do they are a condition for change. They are rúpas of changeability. That is why it is said in the Vis. text: The last sentence of the Tiika states: N: This is understandable when we consider, for example, the bases produced by kamma. Kamma is a cause of the past and keeps on producing the bases at each of the three submoments of citta. Note what is quoted above: today, etc. about the three other factors of nutrition, temperature and citta. The lightness triad conditions changes temporarily, not all the time. Nina. Nina. 31389 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Engaged Buddhism / Violence and Non-Violence Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/16/04 6:48:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard and James > > > H: Formal meditation is meditation done in a manner in which > >there is a restriction of the scope of attention, and accordingly > an increase in concentration. If the restriction is extreme, the > meditation tends to lead to absorption; if it is less so, it tends > to either access concentration or moment-to-moment concentration. > > k: I dont think that is the case for satipatthana. I have said it > can be a meditation but if you said that meditation is considered a > restriction of the scope of attention - that is not tenable. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: And I didn't say it. Please reread what I did say - with regard to formal and informal meditation - a bit more carefully. ------------------------------------------------ Lets> > look at Breathing Sutta, if you see further down the sutta < trains himself to breathe in focusing in inconstancy>> So the object > has been change a number of times, from inconstancy, to dispassion to > cessation to relinquishement. > > k: then you say an increases in concentration - If you then look at > the Breathing sutta < the body in &of itself -- ardent, alert &mindful -- subduing greed > &distress>> So it is not just breathing concentration or a single > object. Neither does it say there is an increase in concentration - > in fact it said it is the increase of insight by looking at the word > subduing greed &distress. > > H: Ongoing mindfulness at ordinary times, for lack of a better > term, is informal meditation, and it constitutes, in my opinion, > much if not most of what is discussed in the Satipatthana Sutta. > > k: Agreed - except for the word informal. Be it formal or informal > when a citta meets an object and foucsing on it and understand that > the citta and object is not me or I or myself - that is meditation. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll have to enter that in my dictionary of special definitions! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ > > H: With regard to such informal meditation, practicing formal > meditation in a regular way conditions the mind, making it better > able to carry out this informal meditation in such a way that it > constitutes something far different from and more effective than the > mindstates of dogs and jackals. > > k: I dont think that is supported in the sutta. No where it said > one must follow this prescribed formulation as suggested by you. > There is no need to be feel detach or dispassion during "formal > meditation" it can be experience right here and now. Neither does > it suggest that such dispassion only be enhance by initial > meditation, it is the other waking hours of not meditation that are > equally important. We dont need to sit down on one corner to realise > the detachment of feelings or consciouness. While we are alert, we > cannot say we dont want to see etc. In the same way I said Doret, we > dont need to wait for a particular hour or to sit in one place to > understand Dhamma. If dhamma is not understand as right here and now > as you said also normal activities, then it is not of use. I dont > think one can meet pleasant object when sitting down, or one can hear > unpleasant words while sitting down. It is normal activities that we > meet all these challenges and when panna arise, there is called > satipatthana. Dhamma dont wait for us to realise, it is up to us to > live it in this very moment. > > > Ken O > ============================= Ken, putting it simply: We are not close on this matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31390 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dependent origination. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/16/04 1:20:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Christine, Howard and friends, > Thank you for your suggestions. > To answer Howard: > H: I'm busy as well and can't take the lead in this. > N:Let it depend on conditions, it can be a leaderless thread, it can lead > its own life. It should be without constraint or a feeling of obligation. > Now and then when you come across a text or have a thought you could perhaps > post it. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That sounds very good to me, Nina. There is one more thing that might be helpful: If anyone has a full version of Adobe Acrobat - I only have the free 6.0 Reader - then that person would have the capability of copying and pasting from the PDF of Bhikkhu Bodhi's paper. Posting portions of that paper would be helpful to the discussion. Or, if anyone here has software to convert the PDF paper to MS word, then perhaps those who wish to participate in the D.O. discussion could share the Word document. --------------------------------------------- > op 15-03-2004 21:36 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > >Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his preface, suggests a way to study this material: > > > >"Though each reader will find his or her own way of approaching the > >material presented here, intensive study will probably be most > >fruitful if the sutta is read first by itself, a second time in > >conjunction with the introductory essay, and a third time > >inconjunction with the commentarial exegesis." > > > >Does anyone have any thoughts on this suggestion? > > > N: I have B.B.'s book. This sutta is the most difficult, and it does not > start with ignorance. As I quoted from the Dispeller, there are four > different ways of teaching the D.O. We could first go over the links > starting with ignorance, and maybe after that go into other approaches? > Also, we may take longer than one week for each link, it does not matter. > Nina. > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31391 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard, H: "I do not consider collective entities to be ultimate actualities, for they are *not* direct, simple elements of experience - they are sankharically constructed elements of experience." L: How simple is a simple element? Every dhamma has numerous characteristics and it is questionable to me whether a single element of hardness, for example, can be experienced as such. Experience is collective; as you say "sankharically constructed". But there is no "self" who makes it. Maybe we could say desire makes it. The derived rupas are said to be derived by desire. Not sure what that means. Larry 31392 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi, Larry - In a message dated 3/16/04 7:28:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > H: "I do not consider collective entities to be ultimate actualities, > for they are *not* direct, simple elements of experience - they are > sankharically constructed elements of experience." > > L: How simple is a simple element? Every dhamma has numerous > characteristics and it is questionable to me whether a single element of > hardness, for example, can be experienced as such. Experience is > collective; as you say "sankharically constructed". But there is no > "self" who makes it. Maybe we could say desire makes it. The derived > rupas are said to be derived by desire. Not sure what that means. > > Larry > ========================= I see a clear difference in type and directness between felt hardness, for example, which is a direct element of experience, and a *supposedly* experienced tree, the latter, in fact, not being an element of experience at all, with only a mental "tree-construct," sankharically formed from direct experiences, being an actual element of experience. There is no tree that is ever seen - only sights are seen, but a tree-construct *is* an element of experience via the mind door. The thing is, however, we seem to think that there is an external, physical object called a tree, and that it presents itself to us via the eye door. That is a mental magic trick, and nothing more. And for that matter, more subtly, I see a clear difference in type and directness even between felt hardness, on the one hand, and the mind-constructed "hardness" that follows immediately after the felt hardness as the result of operations of sa~n~na and sankhara. Even such a mental construct as "hardness" is not the same as felt hardness, itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 31393 From: Philip Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Verbs of awareness in the satipatthana sutta Hello all I've decided to apply myself to a more thorough consideration of the satipatthana sutta. I'll be reading the archive posts on it, but in the meantime there is a question I'd like to ask you. I'm curious to know the difference between "discern" ("when walking, the monk discerns that he is walking") and "makes himself fully alert" ("when going forward and returning, he makes himself fully alert.") Do you think there is an important distinction here? Is it just that the latter is intransitive? (doesn't take an object.) Also very interested by the "in this way he reamains focussed internally on..." that appears repeatedly *after* references to "discern" or "makes himself alert." Do you think the "in this way" suggests that "remains focussed internally" is a *result* of discerning and making oneself alert, or is "remains focussed internally" just another phrase that means the same thing as "discern" and "makes himself fully alert." I suppose "discern" is a momentary rising of awareness, and "makes himself alert" is somehow more intentional and "remains focussed internally" is somehow more sustained. That's the way it sounds to this beginner, anyways. I guess I should compare more than one translation, the way I do with the Dhammapada, but for the time being I am only using the translation available at access to insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance here. Metta, Phil 31394 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jeff Brooks Hello Carl, On the surface this list seems to pose as an intellectual community in search of a deeper understanding of the dhamma. However when I provide canonical support for my thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs I am personally attacked and challenged, not my thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs. Why do you believe that I have no room for compromise? I ask only that one provide some form of reference to support their thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs if they are expressing those beliefs to refute my argument. In any academic setting that would be expected. Why do you think that if I provide a canonical reference for my thoughts, views opinions, and beliefs that it is some kind of attention seeking device? On my search for ordination I am continuing to receive many recommendations and a few offers. I am presently evaluating those offers and recommendations, and furthering a dialog with the people and institutions making those offers to see if it would be wise for me to ordain with them. Ordination is likely to require a great risk on my part in having to give up everything and move. I believe it is reasonable to be somewhat pragmatic regarding taking that risk. Don't you think? I have applied to the Bhavana Society for their ordination program and my request has been rejected. If you were seeking a graduate program in Buddhist studies how long do you think you would spend to decide what institution to study at? Do you think every institution is going to accept your application? Don't you think you might receive a few rejections? Do you think a rejection is proof of any kind that your interests or search is invalid? Would you simply keep searching and applying until you found an institution and a preceptor who shared your particular interests? I would hope so. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/16/04 1:42:56 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:41:45 -0000 From: "Carl" Subject: Jeff Brooks Is it attention you seek? In previous posts on several boards you claim to be searching for a monastery to begin your holy life. How is it going? Your knowledge and intellegance are undisputed. Why is it that you seem to have no room for comprimise? Why are you having such a difficult time in finding a monastery? perhaps you need to look deep into your heart. Carl >> 31395 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Hello Cael, I am so sorry that you have become "afraid" of me, because it seems to you that I have become "entrenched." I am only attempting to express my thoughts, views, opinions and experiences regarding the dhamma backed up by canonical references. Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks In a message dated 3/16/04 1:42:56 AM, dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com writes: << Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:19:03 -0000 From: "Carl" Subject: Re: The Four Fruits of the Noble Eight Fold Path Dear Jeff, I am becoming afraid of you. you seem not in the least interested in the progession of knowledge. Discourse is always an interpretation of current beliefs. It is good to stand strong on current beliefs. It is foolish to remain entrenched. You seem entrenched. I'm worried about you Jeff. (of course I do not read what you write) Cael >> 31396 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] groups (kalapa) Hi Howard, Forget about the name. Is there a complex external physical object? Larry ---------------- Howard: "...There is no tree that is ever seen - only sights are seen, but a tree-construct *is* an element of experience via the mind door. The thing is, however, we seem to think that there is an external, physical object called a tree, and that it presents itself to us via the eye door..." 31397 From: Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Formation PI Hi Ken O, Here are some thoughts on ignorance and javana cittas. If we say ignorance is perception (sanna), what is perception? Perception in the cognitive series is threefold: determining consciousness, registration consciousness, and accumulations. Registration "marks the object", i.e. registers the javana cittas. Determining retrieves this identity from accumulations (memory). Ignorance is the memory of previous javana cittas plus, most importantly, the feeling associated with them. This memory, as determining consciousness, conditions the next javana series (sankhara). Since panna (wisdom) is the opposite of ignorance, then in some sense panna is the opposite of sanna (perception). How so? Perhaps a clue is in the nature of memory. In memory there is latent awareness of impermanence. We only remember what is past. Larry 31398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination Dear Ken O, thank you very much. But I like to go more slowly, there is so much to think over. If you don't mind? I keep what you have given now and react later on. As to Vis, later on we will come to Ch XVII with Tiika and all, with Larry. Pelan, pelan! Nina. op 16-03-2004 06:39 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: Visud XVII, 60 > [(ii) Formations] > > Formations are the six mentioned in brief above thus. 'the three > namely, formations of merit, etc and the three, namely, the bodily > formation etc' (p 44); 31399 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination - Keeping up with Ken O.....breathless already;-) Dear Ken O, don't worry. I do not feel forced or constrained, and I like to give just a little thought now and then, not long typing. I also like to relate it all to my life now. Very necessary for me! Iam putting off Latent tendencies, because now I am writing my Thailand Impressions. Nina. op 16-03-2004 09:29 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Actually I thought of not involving Nina because she is already tied > up with the Visud thread on rupas, then she has the translation of > Tendency and at times she will discuss on pali languages.