33200 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: Vitikkama Hi Andrew, Exellent. Can you suggest any other of Ledi Sayadaw's manuals (other than Bodhipakkhiya Dipani) that cover this subject? Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear Group > Regarding this term raised by Suravira, I found the following > quotation from Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw in his Manual of Factors > Leading to Enlightenment. I hope it is of interest. 33201 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 21, 2004 1:47am Subject: Comments on The Basis of a Religious Life Hi Suravira, This section starts with, "The basis of a religious life is the capacity to see, and relate to, everyone you meet as a person in his or her own right." I can see how this "capacity to see... " is the basis for harmonious communal living, but I have a hard time seeing this as the basis of a religious life. For example, the Thai forest monks can be said to be leading a very religious life, but I don't see how this "capacity to see..." relates to them. Perhaps you takle this angle later, but you might want to mention the first verse of the Dhammapada (all things are mind-made...). Here is the preamble to the UNESCO constitution, "The Governments of the States Parties to this Constitution on behalf of their peoples declare: That since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defences of peace must be constructed..." Sound familiar? Perhaps U Thant had a part in writing this document. If you are interested, the complete document is at: http://www.unesco.org/shs/human_rights/hrpreamble.htm You might want to make the point about how the "ME" society (see my previous comments) leads to an indulgent, irrelegious life and then suggest that a non-"ME" perspective might be the basis of a religious life. This approach would incorporate the Thai forest monks. In the Cuamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63) and again in the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it." You might want to present a simplified version of this quote to support your point. My concern is that when the Buddha talked about "fundamentals of the holy life", He was referring to the monastic life rather than for lay people. The fact that the Buddha starts with the four noble truths as the basis indicates to me the intended audience was monks rather than laypeople. You wrote, "Authentic religious discipline is intended to transform ourselves, but this process does not occur in a vacuum. This transformation occurs within the setting of the community we live and work in." To my understanding, the Buddha did not set out to create a transformation within the lay community. The Buddha created a separate community, the Sangha, which lived by different rules to create a transformation within that separate community. The Vinaya rules cannot be applied to the lay community (for one thing, without marriage and procreation, the human race would die off :-) ). You wrote, "In this way, our spiritual development has a reciprocating relationship to our community; we transform ourselves and our community is transformed; a community is transformed and its members are transformed." This is starting to sound like "group kamma"; a concept with which I am not comfortable. Do you have any Sutta references where the Buddha talked about lay community transformation? You end this section with, "However, we will not be able to transform our hearts if we lack self-respect. Moreover, we will not be able to develop self-respect is we have a sense of self-worth that is deficient. In addition, our sense of self-worth will be deficient if we do not have a viable sense of self-esteem." To me, this sounds like a lot of "self" when the Buddha taught "non-self". Metta, Rob M :-) 33202 From: robmoult Date: Fri May 21, 2004 2:53am Subject: Comments on Consequences of Conditional Love Hi Suravira, An interesting editorial that I generally agree with, but I did not find any Buddhism. One point that I disagree with is, "In America attaining material achievement is of paramount importance, while generosity, charity, virtue, morality and ethics are of no real consequence. " I remember reading a report in TIME (I think) that showed that America was among the most religious countries in the world. In most countries, as economic development increased, the "level of religiousness" decreased. America was an outlier; highly developed and highly religious. In domestic US politics, I have the impression that morals and ethics have always been very important; consider the fixation with JFK's love life, Nixon's Watergate and Clinton's Lewinsky affair. In the international arena, the US has always taken the high moral ground; consider the linking of Human Rights with China trade. The current example is the Iraq prisoner abuse issue. This discussion board is about religion, not about politics, so I have no interest in discussing political issues here. My point is that I suspect that Americans (your audience) tend to see themselves as being highly moral (especially south of the Mason-Dixon line, where you live). It seems inappropriate for me, a Canadian living in Malaysia, to tell you about the character of your local community. It is just that what you are writing is at odds with my understanding of the situation. Please educate me. Metta, Rob M :-) 33203 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 21, 2004 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 001 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma in its name has many definitions. Dhamma may be the nature. It may be the truth. It may be justice. It may be law. It may be the teachings of The Buddha. But if it is the Dhamma or The Dhamma, then it is one of three gems or triplegem called The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. The Dhamma is the whole set of teachings of The Buddha. Buddhas are those who in their past lives had perfected 10 paramis or perfections, 10 upaparamis or 10 higher perfections and 10 paramattha paramis or the greatest perfections and when in their final life be reborn as a human being and finds all Dhamma ( all truths ) by themselves and preach to sattas or beings who are ready to attain some nanas and some kusala. After The Buddha and The Dhamma have been explained to some extent, The Sangha needs to be understood. The Sangha are those who are ordained in the order of sangha and abide all the vinaya or rules and regulations passed as vinaya by The Buddha. They maintain what The Buddha taught and they practise what The Buddha taught. They preach Dhamma to people whenever the conditions favour. These three gems or triplegem are refered to as gems. Gems are rare to be found while dirts are easily found. Gems are precious and keep as admirable things. Even these conventional gems may be ubiquitous while triplegems is the most precious to all as Buddhas appear as a rare event. May we all admire triplegem. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33204 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 21, 2004 9:08am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Rob M and all, As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" For beings going through the round of rebirth (again and again), ignorance is always there, from birth to death. I was trying to convey the presence of ignorance throughout the process of dependent origination, through out the round of rebirth, from birth to death (and birth to death....) I was also trying to show that craving and clinging are fabrications, and fabrications give rise to consciousness in becoming as being passes away(death). With consciousness as condition, nama-rupa come to be, and with nama-rupa, the six sense bases comes to be at birth. As a whole, I was trying to show the pattern of rebirth with this representation of dependent origination. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > In the representation, I was trying to show a temporal relation, > > indicating that ignorance is there as contact comes to be. I was > > not trying to show a causal relation with > > "Contact-----------Ignorance" > > > > Please let me know if there is anything else regarding the > > representation as whole that you would like me to explain. > > Let's keep to this one for now because I am still confused. Why do > you say that ignorance is always there as contact comes to be? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33205 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Here is another example of Dependent Origination that I posted on another list. It might interest some of you and irritate some of the NAG. I don't especially want to defend the use of conscious action and decision here. jack >>For an example, I will use something that happened to me. I was driving in a car and saw another driver with a horribly disfigured face, probably a burn victim. I felt revulsion. Then, I felt connectiveness with him; he could be me; brothers under the skin, etc. The Abhidharma presents several models of perception (sanna). One using the Cycle of Dependent Origination is as follows. My seeing the burn victim (phassa) was conditioned by both an inner and outer basis (ayatana). The outer basis was his disfigured face. The inner basis was my hang-ups/conditioning about disfigured faces. This conditioning altered my perception of the event. Arising with my consciousness of this event was a sensation (vedana), which could be pleasurable, not pleasurable or neutral. In this case it was of revulsion or not pleasurable. Several important points about this process up to this point. First is that I had no control over this process. It is based on the past and I can't alter the past. It is not an occasion for guilt. But, I can affect my inner basis for future events. Since it is based on conditioning (karma), I can, by making skillful choices, change the inner basis that is part of future events. Realizing this was extremely important to me. I started making an effort to skillfully react to minor events because this would later impact how I would react to major events. Another way of saying this is I tried to exercise every day by lifting light weights to _build_ myself up to the point where I could better lift the major weights life throws at me. Even very small, seemingly insignificant decisions -smashing an insect, talking to a telephone solicitor, reacting to a beggar on the street, etc., took on a much greater importance. Back to the process, what usually happens after sensation arises is that I tend to want to continue this sensation of pleasure or try to avoid a sensation of nonpleasure. This results in greed (tanha) which results in attachment (upadana) which further locks me into greed. I cause suffering by wishing things to be different than they are. Then, since I haven't learned anything during the whole process, I repeat this whole cycle of suffering for a similar event in the future (bhava). Some commentators say perception (sanna) only involves the mental fomations described in this paragraph that occur after sensation arises. One result of this process is that that it appears to be automatic. It seems to just happen. I get caught in the process. I don't think there is another way to react. I am entirely controlled by my conditioning. My computer program built on past events runs to completion. But, it doesn't have to be this way. I had a choice after sensation arose. Here is where skillful action can occur. If I am aware of my aversion, I don't have to react. I can watch aversion arise and pass away without letting it go any further. I can break out of the Cycle. I could put a stop in my conditioning/computer program. I could take the path of liberation and break loose of my conditioning. I did this in my example of seeing the burn victim. The Abhidhamma also uses another model to look at this process. Perception starts with the first awareness of an event. Then we paste a label on it. This label which is a result of our conditioning is strongly influenced by our self interest. We tend to look at the world as our tool. This distorts our perception. A pickpocket upon meeting a saint only sees his pockets. We don't see the outside world clearly. To compound this problem, this perception which includes all these subjective judgments is stored in our memory and affects similar perceptions in the future. Through mindfulness training we can learn to contemplate hearing in the hearing, seeing in the seeing, etc., without contemplating them through the cloudy lens of our self interest. We can learn to see clearly.< 33206 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/21/04 12:11:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Rob M and all, > > As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, > attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until > > "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > done. There is nothing further for this world.'" > > For beings going through the round of rebirth (again and again), > ignorance is always there, from birth to death. > > I was trying to convey the presence of ignorance throughout the > process of dependent origination, through out the round of rebirth, > from birth to death (and birth to death....) > > I was also trying to show that craving and clinging are > fabrications, and fabrications give rise to consciousness in > becoming as being passes away(death). With consciousness as > condition, nama-rupa come to be, and with nama-rupa, the six sense > bases comes to be at birth. > > As a whole, I was trying to show the pattern of rebirth with this > representation of dependent origination. > > Metta, > Victor > > ========================= Thanks for this clarification. It - especially, I find, with regard to craving and clinging being fabrications, and leading to vi~n~nana - is very helpful. Could you say a bit more, please, with regard to the "equivalence" part of this analysis? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33207 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi, Jack - In a message dated 5/21/04 12:23:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > But, it doesn't have to be this way. I had a choice after sensation arose. > Here is where skillful action can occur. If I am aware of my aversion, I > don't have to react. I can watch aversion arise and pass away without > letting > it go any further. I can break out of the Cycle. I could put a stop in my > conditioning/computer program. I could take the path of liberation and break > loose of my conditioning. I did this in my example of seeing the burn > victim. > =================== Yes. If there is already well established (by study, contemplation, and repeated application of guarding the senses) the habit of avoiding harmful proliferation, then as soon as tanha is detected, further papanca may be avoided. And with sufficient development of mindfulness, attention, concentration, and clear comprehension, one may even get to the point of stopping at pleasant or unpleasant vedana, avoiding even the initial reaction of tanha. That, of course, is already quite advanced. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33208 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 21, 2004 10:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 002 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha preached many dhammas. He preached whenever there was a condition for preaching the Dhamma. He lived 80 years as a human being. But He was not an ordinary human being. All the perfections that His past lives made, made Him the greatest person in the whole universe. The Buddha Siddhattha Gotama entered Buddhahood on His 35th birthday. In His remaining 45 years, He preached Dhamma a lot for sattas. He sometimes preached to a single person while there were countless witnessing devas and brahmas. Sometimes The Buddha preached to a group of people. At the time of The Buddha Mahaparinibbana, there arose opposing words from puthujana bhikkhus and some bhikkhu followed him and joined him because they disliked vinaya because tight vinaya limited their itchiness or puthujana's endless desire. Since then, there have been many many divisions. These divisions were mainly happened among puthujana bhikkhus. Puthujhana is a Pali word. It is made up of 'puthu' and 'jananam'. Puthu means many and jananam means causing to arise. Puthujana means causing many many defilements to arise. These defilements made those bhikkhus to deviated from The Buddha teachings which included vinaya or rules and regulations for bhikkhus to abide by. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33209 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation In a message dated 5/21/04 9:41:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > But, it doesn't have to be this way. I had a choice after sensation arose. > Here is where skillful action can occur. If I am aware of my aversion, I > don't have to react. I can watch aversion arise and pass away without > letting > it go any further. I can break out of the Cycle. I could put a stop in my > conditioning/computer program. I could take the path of liberation and break > loose of my conditioning. I did this in my example of seeing the burn > victim. > =================== Yes. If there is already well established (by study, contemplation, and repeated application of guarding the senses) the habit of avoiding harmful proliferation, then as soon as tanha is detected, further papanca may be avoided. And with sufficient development of mindfulness, attention, concentration, and clear comprehension, one may even get to the point of stopping at pleasant or unpleasant vedana, avoiding even the initial reaction of tanha. That, of course, is already quite advanced. ==== Howard, My opinion which I hesitate to say on this list is that very little knowledge is needed but lots and lots of practice on the cushion. I can sometimes see it all play out and be very mindful of vedana in deep meditation and in a few instances in the midst of daily life. I don't think a general sense of its playing out is that difficult to attain. jack 33210 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri May 21, 2004 11:01am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 5 Awareness can arise when there are the right conditions for its arising, but we should not expect many moments of it. Awareness and understanding can be gradually accumulated. It is not enough to be aware of rúpas of the body, also nåma has to be known. Kusala and akusala have to be known, thinking has to be known, understanding itself has to be known as only a nåma, otherwise we cling to it and take it for ³my² understanding. The Commentary to the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² explains that foolish people cling to rank, they want to obtain a high position in society. The monk wants to escape danger and leaves the home life. However, also monks have defilements, they may quarrel, such as the monks in Kosambi. We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse, all these elements appear clearly, just as the reflection of his face clearly appears to someone using a mirror. Therefore, the Buddha said to Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the ³Mirror of Dhamma². We have many defilements and we are troubled by many kinds of contrarieties in our life. We think of other persons who treat us in a disagreeable way. However, we can learn that, in the ultimate sense, there is not ³me², not the other person, but that there are only elements or dhammas. Dhammas can appear as clearly as the reflection in a mirror. We read in the Commentary that someone who learns to develop vipassanå will overcome defilements and eradicates them completely when he becomes an arahat, just as a soldier who conquers in a battle. Therefore, the Buddha also called this sutta the ³Drum of the Deathless². The Deathless is nibbåna, the arahat has reached the end of birth and death. This sutta refers to the development of insight: one becomes skilled in the elements through insight. We read in the Commentary that vipassanå is compared to munition used in a battle. By means of this munition one can overcome all defilements. The Buddha also called this Discourse the ³Incomparable Victory in the Battle.² This Discourse can remind us that we have to be courageous in the development of insight so that we eventually reach the goal. The objects of insight are all the elements as explained in this sutta. These elements appear all day through the six doorways. Visible object impinges at this moment on the eyesense so that seeing can arise. If there were no citta, visible object could not appear. We may believe that we see a person, but we cannot see a person, we can only think of him. Thinking is another element. Buddhaghosa states page after page that the truth about the khandhas, the dhåtus (elements), the åyatanas (sense-fields) is taught by the Buddha. Buddhaghosa repeats that vipassanå is to be developed of the khandhas, the dhåtus, the åyatanas. In this way he reminds us to be aware of them now, since they pertain to daily life. Buddhaghosa stresses that the Buddha taught our being in the cycle, vatta, and being released from the cycle, vivatta. We are in the cycle now, we are subject to dukkha. **** Nina 33211 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri May 21, 2004 11:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Howard and all, First of all, I would like to correct myself regarding what I said: 'As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"' I want to say that as long as one has not known the Four Noble Truths, there is always ignorance. In other words, ignorance is not knowing the Four Noble Truths. Craving and clinging are fabrications, specifically, fabrications conditioned by ignorance. Craving leads to clinging and clinging give rise to becoming, starting another round of birth, aging, and death, giving rise to this whole mass of the dukkha. However, with the cessation of ignorance, that is, knowing the Four Noble Truths, one undertakes the Noble Eightfold Path that leads to the cessation of the dukkha. The Noble Eightfold Path is a fabricated path, and all eight factors of the Path are also fabrications. However, they are the fabrications leading to cessation of craving, thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/21/04 12:11:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Rob M and all, > > > > As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, > > attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until > > > > "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He > > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > > done. There is nothing further for this world.'" > > > > For beings going through the round of rebirth (again and again), > > ignorance is always there, from birth to death. > > > > I was trying to convey the presence of ignorance throughout the > > process of dependent origination, through out the round of rebirth, > > from birth to death (and birth to death....) > > > > I was also trying to show that craving and clinging are > > fabrications, and fabrications give rise to consciousness in > > becoming as being passes away(death). With consciousness as > > condition, nama-rupa come to be, and with nama-rupa, the six sense > > bases comes to be at birth. > > > > As a whole, I was trying to show the pattern of rebirth with this > > representation of dependent origination. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > > > ========================= > Thanks for this clarification. It - especially, I find, with regard to > craving and clinging being fabrications, and leading to vi~n~nana - is very > helpful. > Could you say a bit more, please, with regard to the "equivalence" > part of this analysis? > > With metta, > Howard 33212 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:20pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 003 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As they could see the forseeable danger to The Buddha Sasana, arahats sangha all agreed and decided to compile all teaching. 4 months after Mahaparinibbana of The Buddha, The First Buddhists' Council was held with the aid of the king Ajatasattu. Venerable Mahakassappa acted as the main questioner and Venerable Ananda acted as the sole answerer. The Dhamma were brought forward by The Sangha at first through oral citations. At hard time of famine, The Sangha continued to cite not to forget the taught Dhamma so that some had to vomit blood. The same fashion of Buddhists' Councils were taken successfully another two times. At 4th Buddhist Council, there appeared written language and Dhamma were recorded on leaves and they were stored in a safe place so that enemies could not destroyed. Candamukhi was an ogress and lived on a hill called Mandalar. When The Buddha and Ananda were there, Candamukhi cut her breasts and offered The Buddha. The Buddha smiled. Smiling of The Buddha was rare. 'Ananda! This ogress would be reborn as a human around this place. He would become a king and he would maintain My Sasana. That ogress became the sponsor of the 5th Buddhists' Council which was taken in the mid 19th centuary and he had Dhamma sculptured on 729 marble stone slabs which can still be seen today. May you all be free from suffering. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33213 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi, Jack - In a message dated 5/21/04 1:35:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Yes. If there is already well established (by study, contemplation, > and repeated application of guarding the senses) the habit of avoiding > harmful > proliferation, then as soon as tanha is detected, further papanca may be > avoided. And with sufficient development of mindfulness, attention, > concentration, > and clear comprehension, one may even get to the point of stopping at > pleasant > or unpleasant vedana, avoiding even the initial reaction of tanha. That, of > course, is already quite advanced. > ==== > > > Howard, > > My opinion which I hesitate to say on this list is that very little > knowledge > is needed but lots and lots of practice on the cushion. I can sometimes see > it all play out and be very mindful of vedana in deep meditation and in a > few > instances in the midst of daily life. I don't think a general sense of its > playing out is that difficult to attain. > > jack > ======================= Well, as you know, I agree with you on this.There is a limit to how much detail is really needed. But study of what the Buddha taught, especially as taught in various manners and under varying circumstances, is useful, especially, I think, in terms of encouragement and correction of misinterpretation of experience. As far as contemplation is concerned, I think that is *very* important in building resolve and in reminding oneself to maintain the practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33214 From: Philip Date: Fri May 21, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Hello Nina, and all Thank you as always for your feedback, Nina. N: >> They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the > akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated > they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in > the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been > eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising > of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions. >They can > condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression > of sú‰a at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and > added to the latent tendencies. Ph: I guess at my stage of understanding, being told that there are these subtle defilements and having an intellectual belief in them is a good begining. It certainly helps to make me more patient with myself and others. But that for now being aware of gross transgressions when they occur - and they do - is my Dhamma workground. What is that term that is something like a "Dhamma workground?" How do we know what out "Dhamma wrokground" is? N : >The teaching of the latent tendencies helps > us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again > and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable.> Ph: I am feeling very loose and relaxed because of this new sense of people behaving in an unforseeable and uncontrollable way. Loose and relaxed, though a bit disappointed that I have to rethink my life's goals, which had to do with helping others to a degree that I see now to have been based on wrong understanding of realities. (snip) I asked about regret and sense of shame. N: > Sense of shame: this is kusala when it accompanies > kusala citta and abhors akusala. When we read shame, abhor, in the > Abhidhamma this does not have the same meaning as in conventional language. > With the wholesome shame here is no aversion, no unpleasant feeling. It is a > sobhana (beautiful) cetasika, hiri. Hiri, moral shame and ottappa, fear of > blame, accompany each kusala citta and they keep one from akusala. Ph: I have a question about something that I have seen arising in my behaviour. I guess it started about two years ago - making a conscious efort not to glance at women who were coming the opposite direction on sidewalks, etc. This is a very strong habit pattern for many men, I think, "checking out", unconsciously, women that are coming towards them. Just a quick look, a quick calculation at some level about whether they are "attractive" or not. Maybe it's not as common as I think, and it was just me. In any case, I became aware of the tendency and I started to make a consious effort not to glance. Not so easy, especially on a sunny spring day! And this new behaviour has become habitual, and I don't look. I find it interesting and tell Naomi about it, and she says "If you don't look, how do you know they are there?" Well, I see them peripherally, you know, and there is a lot of exposed flesh, perhaps, and a desire to look, but I don't! Now, this is not done not mainly out of a sense of trying to supress or deradicate lust. The main purpose is out of consideration for the other. I know what it's like to be glanced at by many people who walk by, because people are interested in foreigners here, and might want to compare a short plain-looking one walking by to their image of westerners all being towering hunks. So when I don't glance, it feels like an intention not to cause the other to feel like she were a piece of meat being assesed. Is that hiri, perhaps? I do think it is a kind of kusala but I'm curious to know how it would be classified. (snip) N: > There is an akusala cetasika regret: kukkucca. It is > translated as regret or worry. It arises with a citta rooted in aversion and > is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Its proximate cause are the kusala one > omitted or the akusala one committed. We can see the disadvantage of > worrying about the kusala we did not perform and the akusala we did in the > past. It does not bring any good, it causes more aversion, and this is added > to the latent tendency of aversion. > The Abhidhamma is very precise, very practical and realistic. Ph: This is very interesting. I will take close note of it. Kukucca. (snip) > Ph: At this point in my understanding it seems > > that attachment to dhamma discussion is a wholesome thing that > > inevitably leads us to deeper understanding and therefore panna and > > release from attachment. > N: It is natural that attachment arises in between kusala cittas with > understanding. We cannot catch all those moments. But, we cannot say that it > is attachment itself that leads to more understanding. Attachment leads to > more attachment. We have to know the right cause for the right result. Ph: I see. There are many moments of attachment when I study Dhamma, but there are also a few moments of right understanding. It is not the moments of attachment that condition me to study more, but the moments of right understanding. Well, the moments of attachment may condition me to pick up a book or sit on the cushion, but those forms of beahaviour do not mean right understanding will arise. Only right understanding can comdition more right understanding. (snip) > Ph: I have an inkling that working on defilements and hindrances will > > unleash a more productive Phil, just as it releases more metta and > > other beautiful cetasikas. But no expecations. > N: Instead of working on defilements, I would rather stress: having more > understanding of them. The Buddha stressed: comprehension. Ph: Yes. Understanding. But again, I ask about that term that is something like a " Dhamma workground." I don't remember if I heard it in one of your books, or in a talk by Ayya Khema. She certainly uses more terms that suggest doing "work", which I know doesn't seeem to fall in with no-self, and yet, and yet...I do sense there is work to be done, patiently, with awareness that it is not self that is doing the work, but the Buddha's teaching that is working through one and conditioning the arising of necessary work. Something like that. Metta, Phil 33215 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 1:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation In a message dated 5/21/04 5:07:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: Well, as you know, I agree with you on this.There is a limit to how much detail is really needed. But study of what the Buddha taught, especially as taught in various manners and under varying circumstances, is useful, especially, I think, in terms of encouragement and correction of misinterpretation of experience. As far as contemplation is concerned, I think that is *very* important in building resolve and in reminding oneself to maintain the practice. ===== Howard, The suttas stress the role of vedana in Dependent Origination. Any idea why few if any teachers stress mindfulness of vedana in meditation? jack 33216 From: Date: Fri May 21, 2004 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi, Jack - In a message dated 5/21/04 8:48:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard, > > The suttas stress the role of vedana in Dependent Origination. Any idea why > few if any teachers stress mindfulness of vedana in meditation? > > jack > ======================= Well, Goenka certainly stresses it, though he seems to smear together physical sensation and feeling - that is, he seems to me to conflate rupa and vedana. Perhaps one reason why vedana is not often singled out for attention is that it really is difficult to separate affective flavor of an experience from the experience itself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33217 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri May 21, 2004 8:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hello Jack, Howard, all, Jack - no need to hesitate to give your opinion on this list - it is welcome, and no-one will feel irritated or threatened in the slightest. Irrespective of whether one believes in a particular set practice, or not, - the great importance of pariyatti, study, has been emphasised by the Blessed One. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-007.html --------- As we can see, the word "dhamma" in these passages seems to refer to a very carefully crafted curriculum of teachings, and that there was a great concern that this body of material be accurately and precisely communicated from teacher to student. The realization in personal experience and the integrity of intention also seem to be areas of particular concern in the ancient context, as they are today. Teaching the Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:159 It is not easy to teach dhamma to others. Concerning the teaching of dhamma to others, only after five things have been internally established is dhamma to be taught to others. What five? 1. "I shall speak a graduated discourse…" 2. "I shall speak a discourse that is insightfully-arranged…" 3. "I shall speak a discourse grounded upon caring…" 4. "I shall speak a discourse without motivation for personal gain…" 5. "I shall speak a discourse without disparaging myself or others…" …thus is dhamma to be taught to others. Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not carefully hear the dhamma, 2. do not carefully learn the dhamma, 3. do not carefully retain the dhamma, 4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained dhamma, and 5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma according to dhamma. Anguttara Nikaya 5:155 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains, verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions; 2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it. Anguttara Nikaya 5:156 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? 1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, mis- arranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of the mis-arranged words and letters. 2. When monks mis-speak, do things that constitute mis-behavior, are endowed with a lack of patience/forbearance, and possess little talent for grasping the teaching. 3. When the monks who have learned much, who have received what has been passed down, who have retained the dhamma, the vinaya and the manuals, —they do not make others carefully speak the discourses; and because of their lapse the discourses become something with its roots severed, without a refuge. 4. When the senior monks live in luxury, take the lead in falling into laxity, lay aside the responsibility of dwelling in seclusion, and no longer put forth effort: to attain what has not yet been attained, to achieve what has not yet been achieved, to experience what has not yet been experienced. 5. When the community is divided. When the community is divided, then there is shouting at one another, there is blaming one another, there is closing in on one another, there is giving up on one another. Those who are not clear do not get clear there, and the few who are clear become otherwise. http://www.dharma.org/ij/archives/2000b/ss_teaching.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: Jack: My opinion which I hesitate to say on this list is that very little knowledge > is needed but lots and lots of practice on the cushion. I can sometimes see > it all play out and be very mindful of vedana in deep meditation and in a few > instances in the midst of daily life. I don't think a general sense of its > playing out is that difficult to attain. > > jack 33218 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) KenH, and Victor --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Victor, > > You wrote: > ---------------- > In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. > They are: > 1. Association with superior persons > 2. Hearing the true Dhamma > 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara] > 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma > > When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for > stream-entry? > -------------------- > > Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha > (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha > are those you have listed above. They include pariyati > (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and > patipatti, which is 4. > > So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that > is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would > have been correct, too. Yes, I think so. These same 4 factors are also given in a set of suttas at SN 55:55 to 61 as things that when developed and cultivated lead to: the obtaining of wisdom [59] the growth of wisdom [60] the expansion of wisdom [61] the realization of the fruit of stream-entry [55] the realization of the fruit of once-returning [56] the realization of the fruit of non-returning [57] the realization of the fruit of arahantship [58] So they are as applicable for the beginner ('the obtaining of wisdom') as for the enlightened being, as relevant to pariyatti as to pativedha. Jon 33219 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Jack) - ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the sense of being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt unhappiness or sorrow or distress. (Of course, other commentaries might well point in a different direction. I don't think it makes sense to let one's interpretation of the Dhamma rise and fall with each different commentarrial position encountered! ;-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An interesting comment! Could you perhaps give a specific example of different commentarial positions being taken on the same point. Jon 33220 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, ... > In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is > dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, > it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha. > > The view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, > death is not itself dukkha" presented in Sammohovinodani directly > contradicts what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha > that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. The full statement of the first Noble Truth ends with words that summarise all the preceding part of the statement as being the five aggregates of clinging. So any reading of the Truth needs to accommodate that important summary. I think the text of the Sammohavinodani does just this. Jon 33222 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 22, 2004 6:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Jon and Sarah, Given the quote provided by Sarah, it is stated in Sammohavinodani that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death is not itself dukkha. This view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death is not itself dukkha" directly contradicts to what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Do you mean that because the five aggregates of clinging/sustenance are dukkha, birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, death is not itself dukkha? or Do you mean that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > ... > > In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is > > dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, > > it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself > > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha. > > > > The view "birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself dukkha, > > death is not itself dukkha" presented in Sammohovinodani directly > > contradicts what the Buddha taught in the Noble Truth of the Dukkha > > that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. > > The full statement of the first Noble Truth ends with words that summarise > all the preceding part of the statement as being the five aggregates of > clinging. So any reading of the Truth needs to accommodate that important > summary. I think the text of the Sammohavinodani does just this. > > Jon 33223 From: Date: Sat May 22, 2004 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Hi, Jon - In a message dated 5/22/04 7:56:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > An interesting comment! Could you perhaps give a specific example of > different commentarial positions being taken on the same point. > ======================== I don't know any, Jon. I was merely indicating that finding some commentarial positions that support my own view should not be decisive. I was merely admitting to the possibility that I might be latching onto commentaries that I like as support for my position. I'm aware that that we humans tend to cling to our opinions, and as soon as we come across "authoritative" support for them, we search no further. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33224 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 004 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There have been a total of six Buddhists' Councils. In the sixth Buddhist Council, all teachings were made into printed form and translations are available. Dhamma are a lot. But in essence, there are four in terms of their characters. They are four paramattha dhamma. Paramattha is made up of parama and attha. Parama means great while attha means meaning or essence. So paramattha means the greatest essence. These 4 dhamma are citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. They each have their own characteristics and they are realities in ultimate sense. They are also called universal truth. These four dhamma are ultimate truth. This means that they are always true at any time and at any era and anywhere. Citta is translated as consciousness. Cetasikas are translated as mental factors. Rupa is material. Nibbana is translated as absolute peace. Apart from these four dhamma, there is no other realities in essence. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33225 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6 Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6 In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied. The Abhidhamma explains ultimate realities and these are the objects of insight. People at the Buddha's time had no misunderstandings about this, but since we are further away from the Buddha's time we need more detailed explanations. The Commentaries clearly explain about the Abhidhamma and its application in the development of insight. Without the commentaries we would be lost. We need endless patience and perseverance in the development of vipassanå. We have to consider nåma and rúpa and be aware of them so that we become familiar with their different characteristics. It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not experience anything. We can be inspired by people¹s patience at the time of the Bodhisatta Sumedha. We read in the ³Chronicle of the Buddhas² (Buddhavamsa, II a Sumedha, vs. 71-76) that the Buddha, during his life as the Bodhisatta Sumedha, was proclaimed a future Buddha by the Buddha Dípankara. We read about people¹s reactions to this event: 71. When they had heard these words of the great seer who was without an equal, men and deities, rejoicing, thought: ³Sprout of the Buddha-seed is this². 72. The sounds of acclamation went on; the (inhabitants of the )ten-thousand (world-system with the devas clapped their hands, laughed and paid homage with clasped hands. 73. (Saying) ³If we should fail of the Dispensation of this protector of the world, in the distant future we will be face to face with this one....² The Bodhisatta Sumedha had to develop all the perfections for aeons in order to attain Buddhahood, and people at that time had great patience. They had courage and perseverance to continue developing right understanding and all the other perfections for aeons so that they would attain the goal. When we consider how long it takes to develop paññå we can think with respect and gratefulness of the Buddha who had endless patience to develop the perfections for our sake, so that we would have the opportunity to develop understanding at this moment. Acharn Sujin said, ³When you think of the aeons it takes to develop understanding you are actually praising the Buddha¹s excellent qualities.² ******* Nina. 33226 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit, Chapter One, no 2 Dear Philip, I just continue. op 18-05-2004 01:34 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > S. : The word kusala refers to the nature of the citta which is > good and beautiful..... Even if > someone has no things he can give away there can be kusala citta. > There are many other kinds of kusala besides the giving away of > things. > Ph: Thich Nhat Hahn wrote about this and said that we can give our > presence our stability our freedom (meaning ways of finding joy free > from affliction) our freshness, our peace, and space. These concepts > are very conceptual and airy but they helped me a lot to be a better > teacher. N: I want to add: I just listened to A. Sujin's lecture in a hospital. She talks about very simple things that we can apply. Generosity: We can also give knowledge to others, even if it is not about dhamma. She talked about agreeable speech, a kind word that is pleasant to hear for someone else, that makes him happy. It does not cost any money! She said this is very important. People will think this is too simple, but the source is kusala citta and we can learn more about kusala and see its benefit, so that there is less selfishness and kusala can be accumulated. I learnt this when I went around with her when living in Thailand. She would say: that is your kusala citta. I learnt something new, because I had not thought of it that way. I just did things in a thoughtless way. Just like you say now, you did not know before about not hiding your kusala, or expressing your appreciation about other's kusala. > > S. :....We can transfer our kusala to others by > letting them know about our good deeds so that they, in their turn, > can have kusala cittas with appreciation of our good deeds. They > rejoice in the kusala we have performed. > > Ph:... It goes against the usual > thinking that our good deeds should be done without calling attention > to them. Of course it should be done subtly. It brings about mudita. > Obviously it would be easy to misinterpret the above. ) N: Right, mudita. Someone who misinterpretes, well that is his akusala citta. Anything can be misinterpretated. All these things may be strange at first to "Western minds". But once one understands one can see the benefit of learning about cittas. > S. :.... The appreciation of someone elses kusala is another way > of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else. > This way of kusala is called in Paali: pattanumodana > Ph: I will give this a shot now and tell you that I decided to > share passages of this book with you as a way of performing dana. .. > So, are you feeling kusala in appreciation of any kusala I have > from sharing this book with you? :) N: Anumodana, I appreciate it. I also appreciate it that you are openminded to learn more. > S: Besides the above mentioned ways of kusala there is still another > way. When we have performed a deed of generosity there can again be > kusala cittas afterwards. We can reflect on the daana... the > cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. > > Ph: This is very interesting. Again it seems to go against my > conventional thinking that it could create attachment to one?fs deeds > as self, and a self-pleased feeling, with the emphasis on self. > Wouldn?ft letting go of the good deed with faith in the Buddha?fs > teaching that wholesome deeds lead to more of the same be the way to > go?) N: Attachment is bound to alternate with kusala, but that is natural. By these examples we learn more on the nature of kusala citta and about the occasions when it can arise, and this is helpful. When we do simple things for others we can learn: yes, it is not me, it is kusala citta. Another things stressed by A.S.: behaviour that is beneficial. Spending one's life in a useful way, even helping in seemingly unimportant things, helping someone to carry a load, or showing him the way, helping with books etc. or, as Christine does: giving helpful links. That is her kusala citta. She sent you a letter with good tips about getting a pension, etc. That is her kusala citta and we can appreciate it. People may find it unimportant to think about these things, but I believe it helps for the understanding of citta as it arises in our daily situation and in our social contacts. It helps us to apply the Dhamma in speech and deeds. You have already a lot to read, but I just mention "My time with A. Sujin", which is about all the practical things I learnt from her. It is simple and short, it is a correspondance I had with a Japanese friend, Kiyo. Nina. 33227 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: three levels of defilements Hi Rob M, op 21-05-2004 07:07 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: This is very interesting stuff and I would like more. I am trying to > understand what happens when "thinking goes wrong". N: Then there is paryutthana kilesa, medium defilement. It is not vitikkama, a transgression. Unless you plan to take someone's possessions away. I just quote what happens: Thus it can condition again and again pariyutthaana kilesa, and these fall away and are accumulated as latent tendency. This process is repeating all the time. R: I am still trying > to articulate it, but my current understanding is that the three > levels of defilements are the conditions, natural decisive support is > the mode of conditioning and the current mental state is that which > is conditioned. N: But now we can be more precise about the three levels and the way they operate. Subtle defilement is very strong, because it cannot yet be eradicated, only by lokuttara citta. It is called subtle because it does not arise, it lies dormant just like microbes. R:The vipallasa are high level descriptions of the > process (however, the three vipallasa do not correlate to the three > levels of defilements). N: Each akusala citta that arises has vipallasa. This is another aspect. Nina. 33228 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eye-consciousness. Hi Rob M, op 21-05-2004 07:20 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Eye consciousness is a kiriya citta; it has no roots. It has no moha > and it is not linked to kamma. N: This is perhaps a typo. It is ahetuka vipakaacitta, produced by kamma. All sense-cognitions are the results of kamma. Nina. 33229 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 22, 2004 1:53pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6 Hi Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6 > > In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied. The Abhidhamma > explains ultimate realities and these are the objects of insight. [snip] Are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following discourses? If so, how? Anguttara Nikaya II.23 Abhasita Sutta What Was Not Said Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-023.html Anguttara Nikaya II.25 Neyyattha Sutta A Meaning to be Inferred Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-025.html Metta, Victor [snip] > ******* > Nina. Metta, Victor 33230 From: Philip Date: Sat May 22, 2004 2:59pm Subject: Kammatthana and 40 classical meditation themes Hello all. Questions at the end, if you'd like to skip the preamble. Yesterday I was asking Nina about a term I vaguely remembered being something like a "workground" for our practice. > Ph: I guess at my stage of understanding, being told that there are > these subtle defilements and having an intellectual belief in them is > a good begining. It certainly helps to make me more patient with > myself and others. But that for now being aware of gross > transgressions when they occur - and they do - is my Dhamma > workground. What is that term that is something like a "Dhamma > workground?" How do we know what out "Dhamma wrokground" is? I tracked it down - it is "kammatthana." Here is the definition from access to insight. "Literally, "basis of work" or "place of work". The word refers to the "occupation" of a meditating monk: namely, the contemplation of certain meditation themes by which the forces of defilement (kilesa), craving (tanha), and ignorance (avijja) may be uprooted from the mind. In the ordination procedure, every new monk is taught five basic kammatthana that form the basis for contemplation of the body: hair of the head (kesa), hair of the body (loma), nails (nakha), teeth (danta), and skin (taco). By extension, the kammatthana include all the forty classical meditation themes. Although every meditator may be said to engage in kammatthana, the term is most often used to identify the particular Thai forest tradition lineage that was founded by Phra Ajaan Mun and Phra Ajaan Sao." So I see now that it is more related to a formal meditation practice and is not relevant for thinking about a direction our vipassana should be taking in daily life. There is no direction, as there is no director. Or is there? That is the fun to think about, but not too often! :) Can "kammathana" apply to contemplation of the loathsomeness of the body? Are these "40 classical meditation themes" important to know about for someone who does not seek jhanas? (I do seated meditation, but with very humble aims - simple mindfulness of the breath and contemplation of certain topics such as the brahma-viharas.) Metta, Phil 33231 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Dukkha and the 3 characterisitcs Howard Thanks for coming in on this thread, and for the apposite sutta quotes. I would like to pick up at the comments you make following the sutta passages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, one can also truthfully say, but derivatively, conventionally, and abbreviationally, that breath, too, is anicca, dukkha, and anatta. It is just that one should be very careful and very clear in one's mind as to exactly what is meant when that is said. The sense in which anicca and anatta, especially, apply to conventional objects is their applying to the actual phenomena that underlie them. As the underlying phenomena arise and cease, the conventional object appears to change. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is indeed a lot of conventional usage and abbreviated referencing in the suttas, but not, I think, when talking about the 3 characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta. As far as I know, the 3 characteristics are invariably given in terms of the five aggregates, the elements, the sense-bases or some other way of classifying dhammas. The reason for this, I suspect, is that even to talk in terms of the phenomena that underlie conventional objects or things in a sense presupposes the existence of conventional objects or things (i.e., similar to the reason that the statement 'the self does/does not exist' is not discussed either). In terms of our own understanding, if visible-object (to take that as an example) is conceived of as the seen aspect of different conventional objects or things, then this would not be the kind of correct intellectual understanding that would condition the arising of direct awareness, in my view. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dukkha, however, applies not only derivatively to conventional objects, but also directly, because dukkha depends on mind. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The 3 characteristics are characteristics that *pertain to* dhammas. In the course of the development of insight, individual dhammas are gradually known to a higher and higher degree, both as to their particular (unique) characteristic and as to the 3 characteristics they share in common with all other conditioned dhammas. This development continues, until, at the attainment of full enlightenment, these characteristics are fully penetrated. So both before and after full enlightenment, dhammas are known as anicca, as dukkha, and as anatta . 'Dukkha' here is a reflection of the insubstantiality of the dhamma, and applies whether or not the perceiver is inclined to grasp, or capable of grasping, the dhamma as being other than it truly is. Indeed, dhammas and their insubstantiality and other attributes are more clearly and truly seen by the fully enlightened being than by the yet-to-be fully enlightened being. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is the following: __________________________ > ... association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is > dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha ---------------------------------------------- I do believe that the "things" that are unloved etc are conventional objects, including persons. Grief can arise, for example, at least as strongly with regard to the loss of a fictitious entity believed to be real as with regard to an actual phenomenon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since we are discussing dukkha as one of the 3 characteristics of all conditioned dhammas, the passage you quote here (from the first of the Four Noble Truths, I believe) may not be of direct relevance. The meaning of dukkha as the first of the Four Noble Truths is not coextensive with its meaning as one of the 3 characteristics. However, it is worth noting that the full statement of the first Noble Truth concludes with words to the effect: 'In brief, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering'. The words 'in brief' here are significant. They show that what has preceded (i.e., birth, sickness, old age, death, association with the unbeloved, separation from the loved, not getting what is wanted, etc) is nothing more nor less that the dhammas that comprise the five aggregates, as mentioned elsewhere throughout the teachings. Not only grief is dukkha, but joy is too, as is visible-object. Birth, sickness, old age, death, separation, etc are a synonyms for existence in samsara. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Victor) - ... > ======================= > I agree with you Jon. That is certainly the primary meaning and > application throughout. For example there is the following: > > --------------------------- > > Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.82 > > > > Loka Sutta > > > > The World > ... > And there is also the following: > ________________________ > > Anguttara Nikaya X.60 > > > > Girimananda Sutta > > > > To Girimananda 33232 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thank you for your notes. > > So is breath/in-&-out breathing inconstant, dukkha, not self? > > Metta, > Victor In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the 3 characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that we conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas. Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that are taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings. Jon 33233 From: Date: Sat May 22, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, I, no 6 Hi Nina, N: "It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not experience anything." L: We could also say an object doesn't experience anything; it _is_ experience. Pleasant feeling doesn't experience sound; it is just pleasant feeling. "Like" doesn't experience pleasant feeling or sound. It is just "like". These three fit together by association. Larry 33234 From: Suravira Date: Sat May 22, 2004 7:20pm Subject: Re: Vitikkama Andrew, Thank you to sharing this article. > In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama and > pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and thoughts > are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, or > moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. If > the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is [Suravira] In the Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment, does Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw offer teachings on how to cleanse the anusaya plane? 33235 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Mike Thanks for the comments. Of course, there is a sense in which all the references to sankhaara can be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas. From what I gather, the more normal 3-fold classification of sankhaara as kaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara occurs in the context of dependent origination, and refers to deeds carried out through body, speech and mind or, in ultimate terms, the volition (cetana) that accompanies such deeds. In the instance under discussion between Victor and me, however, the emphasis is on certain manifestations of the attainment of cessation, and the reference to kaaya-sankhaara is used in a more conventional sense. Jon --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > > I hope this helps resolve any apparent disparity in my statement and > > your sutta quote. > > In my opinion it not only does so, but is also a nice bit of homework, > showing the potential ambiguities in various translations of > 'sankhaara'. > Confusing the different meanings of this word in different contexts is > potentially disastrous, I think. > > mike 33236 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, In-&-out breathings, fabrications, fabricated, are inconstant, dukkha, not self. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Thank you for your notes. > > > > So is breath/in-&-out breathing inconstant, dukkha, not self? > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the 3 > characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that we > conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas. > > Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that are > taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you > mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not > exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings. > > Jon 33237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Regarding your last message, ... > The passage > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > means exactly what it says. ... Thanks for these observations. However, your comment that the passage means exactly what it says needs to be qualified, I feel. The dhamma is truly deep in meaning, and this depth of meaning cannot always be perceived by taking the words spoken at their face value. First, I think we could all come up with many instances where the words used by the Buddha do not carry their ordinary, literal meaning (e.g., 'the eye is on fire'). Secondly, we often find terms used that are taken as already known to the listener, and so are not defined or described (a good example of this is 'mindfulness of breathing' itself which, as far as I know, is not defined or explained anywhere in the suttas). Apart from these considerations, there is also the context of the sutta to be considered, and this includes the occasion on which it was given and person or group of persons for whose benefit in particular the discourse was spoken at the time. In the case of the Anapanasati Sutta that will be one or more of the groups of persons listed at the beginning of the sutta (see extract below from my earlier post), and the obvious choice here is those who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing', rather than anyone else (for example, the discourse has no direct relevance for those who are already arahants). Now it seems to me that a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out breathing and insight attainment given to an audience that is already 'devoted to' (i.e., skilled in) mindfulness of in-&-out breathing may be serving quite a different purpose than a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out breathing being given to a group of complete novices in the skill of samatha with breath as object and insight. We cannot simply ignore these external considerations, especially when they are included (for a purpose) in the sutta itself and, as such, are not really external anyway. Jon [From my earlier post:] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... the description of different levels of attainment of those present, who included: [8] Arahants [9] non-returners [10] once-returners [11] stream-enterers [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 33238 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 22, 2004 9:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pannatti (Concept) Hi Jon, Mike, and all, Let me quote the following: "And what are fabrications? These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications." Samyutta Nikaya XII.2, Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html "Now, lady, what are fabrications?" "These three fabrications, friend Visakha: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, & mental fabrications." Majjhima Nikaya 44, Cula-vedalla Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn044.html And in Cula-vedalla Sutta, it is stated that in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Jon, are fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self? Are bodily fabrications inconstant, dukkha, not self? Are in-&-out breaths inconstant, dukkha, not self? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike > > Thanks for the comments. > > Of course, there is a sense in which all the references to sankhaara can > be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas. > > From what I gather, the more normal 3-fold classification of sankhaara as > kaya-sankhaara, vacii-sankhaara and citta-sankhaara occurs in the context > of dependent origination, and refers to deeds carried out through body, > speech and mind or, in ultimate terms, the volition (cetana) that > accompanies such deeds. > > In the instance under discussion between Victor and me, however, the > emphasis is on certain manifestations of the attainment of cessation, and > the reference to kaaya-sankhaara is used in a more conventional sense. > > Jon > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > > > I hope this helps resolve any apparent disparity in my statement and > > > your sutta quote. > > > > In my opinion it not only does so, but is also a nice bit of homework, > > showing the potential ambiguities in various translations of > > 'sankhaara'. > > Confusing the different meanings of this word in different contexts is > > potentially disastrous, I think. > > > > mike 33239 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Dear Christine, Thank you for all these texts, appreciated, Nina. op 22-05-2004 05:21 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses > that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, 33240 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat May 22, 2004 10:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, Given the discourse Anapanasati Sutta, do you mean that: Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is not of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, does not bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, do not bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, do not bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. ? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Regarding your last message, > ... > > The passage > > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & > > pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. > > The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring > > clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > > > means exactly what it says. ... > > Thanks for these observations. However, your comment that the passage > means exactly what it says needs to be qualified, I feel. The dhamma is > truly deep in meaning, and this depth of meaning cannot always be > perceived by taking the words spoken at their face value. > > First, I think we could all come up with many instances where the words > used by the Buddha do not carry their ordinary, literal meaning (e.g., > 'the eye is on fire'). Secondly, we often find terms used that are taken > as already known to the listener, and so are not defined or described (a > good example of this is 'mindfulness of breathing' itself which, as far as > I know, is not defined or explained anywhere in the suttas). > > Apart from these considerations, there is also the context of the sutta to > be considered, and this includes the occasion on which it was given and > person or group of persons for whose benefit in particular the discourse > was spoken at the time. In the case of the Anapanasati Sutta that will be > one or more of the groups of persons listed at the beginning of the sutta > (see extract below from my earlier post), and the obvious choice here is > those who are 'devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing', rather than > anyone else (for example, the discourse has no direct relevance for those > who are already arahants). > > Now it seems to me that a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out breathing and > insight attainment given to an audience that is already 'devoted to' > (i.e., skilled in) mindfulness of in-&-out breathing may be serving quite > a different purpose than a talk about mindfulness of in-&-out breathing > being given to a group of complete novices in the skill of samatha with > breath as object and insight. We cannot simply ignore these external > considerations, especially when they are included (for a purpose) in the > sutta itself and, as such, are not really external anyway. > > Jon > > [From my earlier post:] > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ... the description of different levels of attainment of those present, > who included: > [8] Arahants > [9] non-returners > [10] once-returners > [11] stream-enterers > [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames of > reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble eightfold path' > [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will... > compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] > foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. > [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 33241 From: Andrew Date: Sat May 22, 2004 11:09pm Subject: Re: Vitikkama --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" wrote: > Andrew, > > Thank you to sharing this article. > > > In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama > and > > pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and thoughts > > are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, or > > moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. If > > the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is > > [Suravira] > > In the Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment, does Mahathera > Ledi Sayadaw offer teachings on how to cleanse the anusaya plane? Suravira The Venerable's answer to your question would appear to be: "Among the three planes of ditthi, sila can destroy the vitikkama plane. This means that if one possesses sila-visuddhi, upheavals in acts and speech cannot occur. Samadhi can destroy the ditthi in the pariyutthana plane. This means that if bhavana manasikara (concentration on the objects of meditation) is firmly established, upheavals in thought cannot occur. Panna destroys the ditthi in the anusaya plane. This means that if insight is obtained into the entire body as mere groups of nama and rupa and as anicca, dukkha and anatta groups, the latent store of ditthi that may manifest itself in views of 'personality' (puggala), 'living being' (satta), 'permanency' (nicca), 'pleasure' (sukha), 'self' (atta) disappears. So long as this ditthi-anusaya exists, the destruction of the vitikkama plane by sila, and of the pariyutthana plane by samadhi, can be no more than temporary." I don't consider the Venerable Sayadaw is suggesting a sequentialist approach here i.e. first deal with the vitikkama ditthi by perfecting sila, then do the pariyutthana plane by perfecting concentration then get rid of anusaya by developing wisdom. Many people look at Dhamma in a sequentialist way and I think that is an error. The very last sentence I think implies that samadhi does not destroy ignorance. Indeed, attachment to a "practice" of samadhi may add to the latent store of those wrong views listed above. On the question of whether one MUST practice samadhi (attain jhana) to become enlightened, I believe the answer is "no". A search of the archives for "dry insight" should lead to various references on this. Hope this helps! Best wishes Andrew 33242 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Howard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know any, Jon. I was merely indicating that finding some commentarial positions that support my own view should not be decisive. I was merely admitting to the possibility that I might be latching onto commentaries that I like as support for my position. I'm aware that that we humans tend to cling to our opinions, and as soon as we come across "authoritative" support for them, we search no further. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> J: Quite so, and well put ;-)). Perhaps I took your reference to 'each different commentarial position encountered' a little too literally. Perhaps, on your part, you're relishing your release from the constraints of acadaemia! ;-)) Jon 33243 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:50am Subject: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Victor (and Nina) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nina and all, ... > Anguttara Nikaya II.25 > Neyyattha Sutta > A Meaning to be Inferred > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains > a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning > has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse > whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning > needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." > ---------------------------------------------------------------- [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation uses 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which better represents the original Pali.] An interesting passage, in the light of some of our recent discussions. I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know one from the other. For some reason I've gained the impression that you regard all suttas as ones 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', and that there's no room for seeking to infer a meaning other than the obvious and literal one. ;-)) Also, in the case of those suttas whose meaning has not already been fully drawn out, how did the Buddha suggest that the meaning remaining to be inferred be inferred? As a general observation, it seems to me that our distance in both time and potential for attainment from those to whom the suttas were originally spoken is relevant here, so that many suttas that would have fallen within the 'fully drawn out' category in the time of the Buddha must for us today be regarded as ones whose meaning needs further drawing out (and the best source for this, as I see it, is the Abhidhamma and commentaries). Jon 33244 From: hasituppada Date: Sun May 23, 2004 2:24am Subject: Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Dear Jon , I also contribute to the inference that all Sutta have to be understood as they are without trying to stretch the meaning further. All Suttas explain the basic principles of the Buddha's teachings as exposed in the Dhammachakka pavattana Sutta. There was no necessity for the Buddha to teach more than the principles to set the disciple to sit to meditate and experience for himself the anicca, dukkha and anatma. In Vipassana there is the process of investigation of dhamma (dhamma vicaya) for which the explanations given in the discourses in conventional terms by the Buddha becomes more than sufficient to understand the phenomena as they appear in meditative state. Some times merely reading through a Sutta before a meditation session, may give a clue to nature of things as they are, the understanding or experiencing of which had been "blocked" in the course of the meditation. In that sense I tend to think that Suttas and Meditation go hand in hand. That is just my opinion. With metta, Hasituppada ___________________________________________________________________ For some reason I've gained the impression that you regard all suttas as ones 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', and that there's no room for seeking to infer a meaning other than the obvious and literal one. ;-)) Jon 33245 From: Larry Date: Sun May 23, 2004 9:15am Subject: Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Jon: "I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know one from the other." Hi Jon and all, I would like to know this also. I'm wondering if there is any commentarial comment. It is a question of considerable investigation in the madhyamika camp. Clearly the Buddha seems to be saying there are these two kinds of sutta. Larry ----------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor (and Nina) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Nina and all, > ... > > Anguttara Nikaya II.25 > > Neyyattha Sutta > > A Meaning to be Inferred > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains > > a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning > > has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse > > whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning > > needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon: > [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation uses > 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which > better represents the original Pali.] > > 33246 From: Larry Date: Sun May 23, 2004 10:07am Subject: Re: Vitikkama Hi Andrew, For further detail on eradication of anusaya see Vism. XXII,73, (here "knowledge" refers to path knowledge, i.e., stream entry, once returner, non-returner, arahant): "73. In the case of the 'inherent tendencies', the inherent tendencies to [false] view and to uncertainty are eliminated by the first knowledge. The inherent tendencies to greed for sense desires and to resentment are eliminated by the third knowledge. The inherent tendencies to conceit (pride), to greed for becoming, and to ignorance are eliminated by the fourth knowledge." L: Also it seems you hold a view similar to Gethin's in "The Buddhist Path to Awakening", a book about the 37 requisites for awakening: p.349: "In all this, I arrive, via a completely different route, at conclusions that have something in common with the findings of J. Bronkhorst ("The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India") and T. Vetter ("The Ideas and Meditative Practices of Early Buddhism"). Both these scholars argue that the 'jhanas' represent mainstream early Buddhist meditation; unlike Vetter, who argues that the 'jhana' meditation path early on gave way to the meditation based on 'discriminating insight', I maintain that the 'jhanas' continue to be of paramount importance for the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. What I suggest is that a book such as King's relies far too heavily on Buddhaghosa's "Visuddhimagga" systematization of the path under the headings of 'conduct', 'consciousness' and 'understanding'. This separating out of the three categories is certainly a useful device for a presentation of the Buddhist path, but the structure of the "Visuddhimagga" can make it appear that much of the account of the development of 'samatha' given under the heading 'pacification of consciousness' (citta-visuddhi) has rather little bearing on the remaining five 'purifications', which are therefore to be understood more or less exclusively in terms of wisdom and insight. The result of following Buddhaghosa too closely can be a rather distorted and misleading account of Theravadin meditation theory. My point here is not that Buddhaghosa gets it wrong, but that in failing to have an adequate grasp of the theory of meditation presented in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, modern scholars misunderstood Buddhaghosa. The treatment of the seven sets in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, on the other hand, seems to make clear and emphasize the ancient conception of the path as the yoking together of calm and insight (cf. the "Anapanasati-sutta"). The mind is stilled and brought to a state of happiness and balance; awakening arises directly in this soil. Thus in emphasizing the interdependence and reciprocity of the various elements that contribute to the path, the teaching of the seven sets presents us with a rather more integrated view of the path to awakening." L: "Seven sets" refers to the requisites for awakening (bodhipakkhiya- dhamma): 4 foundations of mindfulness, 4 right efforts, 4 roads to power, 5 spiritual faculties, 5 spiritual powers, 7 factors of enlightenment, the Noble Eightfold Path. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Suravira" > wrote: > > Andrew, > > > > Thank you to sharing this article. > > > > > In this world, if a person can control himself in the vitikkama > > and > > > pariyutthana planes, and if thereby his acts, speech, and > thoughts > > > are, so to say, clean and unsoiled, he is called a good, pious, > or > > > moral man. But such a person is not aware of the anusaya plane. > If > > > the anusaya plane is not destroyed, even if perfect control is > > > > [Suravira] > > > > In the Manual of Factors Leading to Enlightenment, does Mahathera > > Ledi Sayadaw offer teachings on how to cleanse the anusaya plane? > > Suravira > > The Venerable's answer to your question would appear to be: > > "Among the three planes of ditthi, sila can destroy the vitikkama > plane. This means that if one possesses sila-visuddhi, upheavals in > acts and speech cannot occur. Samadhi can destroy the ditthi in the > pariyutthana plane. This means that if bhavana manasikara > (concentration on the objects of meditation) is firmly established, > upheavals in thought cannot occur. Panna destroys the ditthi in the > anusaya plane. This means that if insight is obtained into the entire > body as mere groups of nama and rupa and as anicca, dukkha and anatta > groups, the latent store of ditthi that may manifest itself in views > of 'personality' (puggala), 'living being' (satta), 'permanency' > (nicca), 'pleasure' (sukha), 'self' (atta) disappears. So long as > this ditthi-anusaya exists, the destruction of the vitikkama plane by > sila, and of the pariyutthana plane by samadhi, can be no more than > temporary." > > I don't consider the Venerable Sayadaw is suggesting a sequentialist > approach here i.e. first deal with the vitikkama ditthi by perfecting > sila, then do the pariyutthana plane by perfecting concentration then > get rid of anusaya by developing wisdom. Many people look at Dhamma > in a sequentialist way and I think that is an error. The very last > sentence I think implies that samadhi does not destroy ignorance. > Indeed, attachment to a "practice" of samadhi may add to the latent > store of those wrong views listed above. On the question of whether > one MUST practice samadhi (attain jhana) to become enlightened, I > believe the answer is "no". A search of the archives for "dry > insight" should lead to various references on this. Hope this helps! > > Best wishes > Andrew 33247 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, feeling Hi Larry, op 23-05-2004 02:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that > rúpa does not experience anything." > > L: We could also say an object doesn't experience anything; it _is_ > experience. N: Object can be nama as well as rupa. So I would not say that an object does not experience anything. It is experienced or cognized or felt by citta and cetasika. But what you say, it _is_ experience can be interpreted in two ways: it is an experiencer and it is that which is experienced. The latter is probably what you mean. L: Pleasant feeling doesn't experience sound; it is just > pleasant feeling. N: When it accompanies citta that is attached to sound it feels pleasant on account of the sound, it has sound as object, in a way it experiences sound. Cetasikas share the same object as the citta they accompany, they arise at the same physical base, they fall away together with the citta. L: "Like" doesn't experience pleasant feeling or sound. > It is just "like". These three fit together by association. N: It likes something, it must have an object it is not like a dead log. It is nama, not rupa. It can be attached to the pleasant feeling that has just fallen away. It can be attached to the sound. Attached to anything in the world. You often come back to feeling, and wonder whether it can experience an object. By study of the Tipitaka and Co., by intellectual understanding and by inference we know that it is nama-khandha, not rupa-khandha. You notice feeling that has just fallen away, and while noticing it, you cannot notice at the same time the object feeling had or felt about when it arose in a previous process. You can only notice one thing at a time. Thus, it *seems* that there is just feeling without having an object. Feeling is so predominant and we take it for self, we do not realize it as pure nama, different from rupa. As I said before, it seems that there is a mass of feeling and rupa together and we call it emotion. When there are conditions for the arising of sati of the level of satipatthana, it can be aware of just the characteristic of feeling as nama, and then no words are needed, no thinking about it, no doubt about it whether feeling experiences something or not. Nina 33248 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Dear Philip, op 22-05-2004 02:07 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > N: >> They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise > with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. ... PH:What is that term that is something like a "Dhamma > workground?" How do we know what our "Dhamma workground" is? N: Shall we say task? What is our first task? Understanding whatever appears, kusala, akusala, any kind of reality. Through mindfulness and understanding the wrong view of self can be lessened and eventually be eradicated. Wrong view has to go first, before the other defilements. Ph : Can "kammathana" apply to contemplation of the loathsomeness of the body? N: See what Mike said about this: < The present moment is the only dhamma work ground, and only insight, understanding, malleability and so on to do the work--no you, I, us or them at all, except as distracting delusions. > In the Co to the satipatthana sutta the word kammathana (often translated as meditation subject) stands for satipatthana. Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the meditation subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three characteristics of realities. We should not attach too much importance to a term but look at the context. > N : >The teaching of the latent tendencies helps >> us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising > again >> and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and > uncontrollable.> > > Ph: I am feeling very loose and relaxed because of this new sense > of people behaving in an unforseeable and uncontrollable way. N: And with regard to ourselves, the way we can suddenly behave. It helps us to be patient with regard to ourselves as well as with regard to others. > (snip) > Ph: I have a question about something that I have seen arising in > my behaviour. I guess it started about two years ago - making a > conscious efort not to glance at women...and I started to make a consious effort not to glance. > Is that hiri, perhaps? Each kusala citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa. Thus it all depends on the citta at that moment. This example is relevant, because it brings us to: guarding the sense-doors. It is panna that does the work. No need to close one's eyes or force oneself not to look. Of course it is different for a monk: he should look ahead only for the length of a plough. Seeing only sees what is visible. Afterwards thinking pays attention to the image or the details, often with akusala citta. Seeing and thinking are different cittas having different functions. What is real, what is dhamma? Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma, lobha is dhamma. Panna and sati can face lobha. It has a characteristic and can be object of awareness. Thinking can fancy anything, and that is imagination, a concept and not real in the ultimate sense. The arahat has perfect guarding or control of the senses. The sotapanna does not take any reality for self, but he still has akusala, although no more transgression of the five precepts and no more akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. The beginner: even beginning to be aware is beneficial, one attaches less importance to imaginations and the contents of one's thinking and imagining. Thinking is only conditioned. Better be aware of what appears now then worrying so long about it, or thinking of tricks like closing one's eyes. Nina. 33249 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun May 23, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, 1 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 1 Chapter 2. The Divine Messengers. Lodewijk and I discussed the sutta of ³The Divine Messengers² when we were having dinner at the riverside. We spoke about the problems that arise on account of my aged father, and Lodewijk said that he was impressed by this sutta which we can immediately apply in our life with him. In the ³Divine Messengers (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Threes, Ch IV, § 35) [1] we read that the Buddha spoke to the monks about three divine messengers: old age, sickness and death. A person who has immoral conduct in deeds, words and thoughts is reborn in hell. The warders take him and bring him before Yama the Lord (of Death). We read that they said: ³This man, O majesty, had no respect for father and mother, nor for recluses and priests, nor did he honour the elders of the family. May your majesty inflict due punishment on him.² Then, monks, King Yama questions that man, examines and addresses him concerning the first divine messemger: ³Did you not see, my good man, the first messenger appearing among men?² And he replies:²No, Lord, I did not see him.² Then King Yama says to him: ²But, my good man, did you not see among people a woman or a man, aged eighty, ninety or a hundred years, frail, bent like a roof gable, crooked, leaning on a stick, shakily going along, ailing, his youth and vigour gone, with broken teeth, with grey and scanty hair or none, wrinkled, with blotched limbs?² And the man replies, ³I have seen it, Lord.² Then King Yama says to him: ³My good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to old age and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind¹?² ³No Lord. I could not do it, I was negligent.² We then read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. King Yama then questioned him about the second divine messenger: ³Did you not see, my good man, the second divine messenger appearing among men?² ³No, Lord, I did not see him.² ³But, my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who was sick and in pain, seriously ill, lying in his own filth, who had to be lifted up by some, and put to bed by others?² ³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.² ³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to sickness and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?² ³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.² We read that King Yama said that he would experience the fruit of his evil action. **** Footnote: 1. I used the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158, B.P.S. Kandy **** Nina. 33250 From: m. nease Date: Sun May 23, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breath as bodily formation (was, Pannatti (Concept)) > In the teachings it is individual dhammas that are said to exhibit the 3 > characteristics of anicca/dukkha/anatta, not the supposed objects that we > conceive of a being composites of individual dhammas. > > Thus, the hardness or softness, heat or cold and other 'dhammas' that are > taken for 'breath' are all said to exhibit the 3 characteristics you > mention. But person, body and breath are not dhammas and are do not > exhibit intrinsic characteristics, as I understand the teachings. I know we've discussed this difference a lot but I'm not sure I've seen it so well and succinctly articulated before. I hope you'll consider placing it in the 'useful posts' as a reminder to those capable of understanding it. mike 33251 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 23, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Jon and all Regarding what you said: "I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a sutta 'whose meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know one from the other." Let me give an example of what the Buddha said whose meaning needed to be inferred. Majjhima Nikaya 18 Madhupindika Sutta The Ball of Honey http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html "If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." Majjhima Nikaya 18 Madhupindika Sutta The Ball of Honey http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html Please also check how Ven. Maha Kaccana replied to the monks who asked him to analyze the meaning of what the Buddha said and how he analyze it. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Victor (and Nina) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Nina and all, > ... > > Anguttara Nikaya II.25 > > Neyyattha Sutta > > A Meaning to be Inferred > > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > For free distribution only. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains > > a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning > > has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse > > whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning > > needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation uses > 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which > better represents the original Pali.] > > An interesting passage, in the light of some of our recent discussions. > > I'm wondering how you would view the difference between a sutta 'whose > meaning needs to be inferred' and a sutta 'whose meaning has already been > fully drawn out', that is to say, how we can know one from the other. > > For some reason I've gained the impression that you regard all suttas as > ones 'whose meaning has already been fully drawn out', and that there's no > room for seeking to infer a meaning other than the obvious and literal > one. ;-)) > > Also, in the case of those suttas whose meaning has not already been fully > drawn out, how did the Buddha suggest that the meaning remaining to be > inferred be inferred? > > As a general observation, it seems to me that our distance in both time > and potential for attainment from those to whom the suttas were originally > spoken is relevant here, so that many suttas that would have fallen within > the 'fully drawn out' category in the time of the Buddha must for us today > be regarded as ones whose meaning needs further drawing out (and the best > source for this, as I see it, is the Abhidhamma and commentaries). > > Jon 33252 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun May 23, 2004 2:38pm Subject: Sleep Hello All, I am reading the Vimuttimagga `The Path of Freedom' by the Arahant Upatissa. In chapter the fourth `On Distinguishing Concentration ` under Requisites of Concentration, he says "What are the requisites of concentration? There are seven, namely: virtue, contentment, shielding of the faculties, moderation in drink and food, not sleeping in the first, middle and last watches of the night, the being intent on wisdom and a calm and quiet dwelling-place." My question is: How many watches of the night are there? When, then, is one supposed to sleep? Metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33253 From: Hans Van Slooten Date: Sun May 23, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Right Mindfulness Hello everyone, I have a bit of a "beginner" question: I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness? I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula citta are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the right answer ;). Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated.. Regards, Hans 33254 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 23, 2004 3:26pm Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness Hi Hans and all, If the Buddha was not teaching determinism, then was he also not teaching what is making the decision to develop awareness? A discourse to share with you and all: Anguttara Nikaya II.19 Kusala Sutta Skillful Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Van Slooten" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I have a bit of a "beginner" question: > > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching > determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was > common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness? > I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula citta > are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It > all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the > right answer ;). > > Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated.. > > > Regards, > Hans 33255 From: Date: Sun May 23, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sleep Hi Christine. The are 3 watches of night. This passage is only indicating one who happens to be concentrating throughout the night...an intense session of meditation, if you will. The passage is not meant to indicate that one should do this every night or that one should not sleep. TG In a message dated 5/23/2004 3:30:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: My question is: How many watches of the night are there? When, then, is one supposed to sleep? Metta and peace, Christine 33256 From: Philip Date: Sun May 23, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Philip, Dhammasangani and war on web Hello Nina, and all > Ph : Can "kammathana" apply to contemplation of the loathsomeness of > the body? > N: (snip) In the Co to the satipatthana sutta the word > kammathana (often translated as meditation subject) stands for satipatthana. > Buddhaghosa often mentions the three characteristics as kammathana of > vipassana. Remember the two meanings of jhana: absorption in the meditation > subjects of samatha and: in vipassana, penetrating the three characteristics > of realities. We should not attach too much importance to a term but look at the context. Ph: Not intending to be contrary, but since posting my question, I have read the chapter of Buddhism in Daily Life that deals with the development of calm, and the topic of kamatthana and the meditation subjects came up. (This is the second time I have found an answer to a question in BDL the day after posting it here. I should be reading faster or posting slower!) In the book there is an appreciation of contemplation of foulness of the body. I remember that you brought it up a few weeks ago and if I recall correctly you mentionned this contemplation in the context of a discussion with Lodewijk. So, even if we don't place an emphasis on formal, seated meditation, these meditation subjects can become contemplation subjects that arise during daily life? I wonder how you do it during a discussion. Does the contemplation come through discussion, or do you sit silently for a moment, contemplate foulness of the body, and then resume discussing! I'm sorry if that sounds facetious - not intended that way. :) I contemplated the loathsomeness of my body this morning. Just to see what it would be like. I remembered the sutta (the four frames of mindfulness?) in which one goes through the parts of the body as though it were a sack of beans and corn, and for some reason saw my body on a table, taken apart and laid out, with solid matter and liquids and what not. So there wasn't any distaste really but just an objective analysis. And then I wondered what this meant in terms of my understanding. Now I am sitting here healthy, I thought - but that will not last. The body is unreliable and is destined to cause me chronic physical discomfort - at the very least - severe inconvenience, incapability, incontinence,incoherence, incompetence - all kinds of unfortunate "inco"s. And perhaps intense pain, physical agony. All my dreams and aspirations will fall away as my body falls apart. I will like on my death bed, and taking the next breath or not taking the next breath will be all that remains in this lifetime. Then I began to sense that there was something other than the body, something that was independent of the body, and that would live on. Well, that's not true in the sense of the soul rising from the body the way it does in cartoons. We know that doesn't happen. Also, we know that nama cannot rise without being supported by rupa, so it is not right understanding to think of nama being independent of the body (rupa), is it? But life does go on in a sense, in the form of a single rebirth (patisandhi) citta? How can contemplation of the body help us to better understand what goes on past death and what doesn't, I wondered. In any case, for the time being, I took today's contemplation as a reminder to be grateful for good health while I have it, while being aware that I won't have it for long and my body will revolt and then fall to pieces someday. I will press on gently with dana, sila and bhavana while I can in this lifetime, because in the enxt lifetime I will probably not have the wonderful opportunity I have now. > > Ph: I have a question about something that I have seen arising in > > my behaviour. I guess it started about two years ago - making a > > conscious efort not to glance at women...and I started to make a consious > effort not to glance. > > Is that hiri, perhaps? > Each kusala citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa. Thus it all depends on > the citta at that moment. Ph: Ok. I see I was still taking hiri to be something like my conventional understanding of moral shame, which it isn't. N: > This example is relevant, because it brings us to: guarding the sense-doors. > It is panna that does the work. No need to close one's eyes or force oneself > not to look. Of course it is different for a monk: he should look ahead only > for the length of a plough. Ph: I knew after I posted the above that I would sound like I was trying to behave like a monk. Not that - it's not so much a concern that seeing a woman would cause me lust - it's a concern that my glancing at her would make her feel uncomfortable, the way people glancing at me makes me feel uncomfortable. Concern for the woman's feelings rather than concern about feeding my lust. There are times when I struggle with that, certainly, but this is a different thing, not really about guarding my sense-doors but some kind of consideration for others. An aspect of metta, perhaps. The guarding of sense doors arises when I am teaching a student in my class who attracts me (don't worry - I teach adults!) Then there is a concern about my lust, and I deal with it in other wiser ways than averting my eyes, which would be a bad thing to do for a teacher! N: > Seeing only sees what is visible. Afterwards thinking pays attention to the > image or the details, often with akusala citta. Seeing and thinking are > different cittas having different functions. What is real, what is dhamma? > Seeing is dhamma, visible object is dhamma, thinking is dhamma, lobha is > dhamma. Panna and sati can face lobha. It has a characteristic and can be > object of awareness. Thinking can fancy anything, and that is imagination, a > concept and not real in the ultimate sense. Ph: This is more like what I am learning to do when a student is causing me lustful feelings. I used to contemplate her as a female relative, or remember what the body comes down too - all those fluids and organ tissue - but right understanding of what is going on in the moment is better, I think. Right understanding of rupa and nama. And remembering that my complete presence is a kind of dana. Thanks as always for your feedback, Nina. Only if and when you have lots of spare time, please! :) Metta, Phil 33257 From: Philip Date: Sun May 23, 2004 4:15pm Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness Hello Hans, and all I'm a beginner too, Hans, so very glad to have you here. H: > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness Ph: I've felt confusion about the way sati (which is I assume what you mean by awareness) is taught by Nina and K Sujin and members at DSG who practice in the same way. Perhaps, like me, you have read other Theravadin teachers who mention maintaining sati as constantly as possible (Acharn Chah, for example.) It is confusing. Nina has written that there are different degrees of sati, so I assume that the one that is stressed in other ways of practicing is a different degree. The awareness that Nina teaches about is direct knowledge of paramattha dhammas, which can only arise rarely, and perhaps for beginners like ourselves cannot yet arise. In my opinion - only my opinion - there are less rarefied forms of sati/awareness that we can and should press ahead with at the level of understanding - intellectual only, at this point - that we are capable of. H: > Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching > determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was > common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness? Ph: I think when we study and reflect on and discuss the Buddha's teaching, and meditate if that is our way, we are gradually developing right understanding, as long as it is in the company of dhamma friends with right understanding. Again, my opinion, but as I've said elsewhere, I have faith that this process with these conditions invariably leads one towards right understanding. That is the power, if you will, of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. And it is this right understanding that arises and brings about awareness, I guess. It may be self that starts us out on this process, but self vanishes from the process gradually, and it is right understanding (picture a comic book hero iwth R U on his cape?) that arises to lead us on. But I am only beginning to understand this too so I am looking forward to hearing what our friends here will have to say! :) Metta, Phil 33258 From: Date: Sun May 23, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor, I don't understand. Could you give me a commentary ;-) Larry ----------------------- "If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." 33259 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 23, 2004 5:31pm Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness Hi Hans, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Van Slooten" wrote: > I have a bit of a "beginner" question: > > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching > determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was > common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness? > I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula citta > are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It > all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the > right answer ;). > > Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated.. Welcome! I understand your confusion on this point. It is clear from the Sutta reference given by Victor (and dozens of other Suttas) that the Buddha encouraged / pushed monks to wholesome thinking / actions. Here is another relevant extract from the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126): If one follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made a wish [for results], one is incapable of obtaining results. If one follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is incapable of obtaining results. [But] if one follows the holy life appropriately, even when having made a wish, one is capable of obtaining results. If one follows the holy life appropriately, even when having made no wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is capable of obtaining results. In other words, results flow naturally from proper practice, irrespective of any wish for results. If your practice is wrapped up in an "I"; such as "I want to achieve..." then you will not succeed. When you contemplate on the dhamma, wholesome thoughts arise, not because there was a self that wanted them to arise; the wholesome thoughts arose because conditions were suitable for them to arise. A wise old Thai monk once told me, "Look upon meditation [or whatever practice] as a duty, a responsibility. Results will come when conditions are correct." You asked, "how the conditions for kusula citta are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise" The answer is: through proper practice, not eminating from a self-view, kusala citta will arise naturally. Here is a simple example. You do some charity (dana). If the motivation behind the charity is a desire to look good or to "build up good kamma", then this is an action eminating from a self-view (not good). However, if the charity is done because of a feeling of generosity, then this is kusala. Of course, it is not as black and white as this; in reality there will be a mixture of both kusala and akusala motivations. Since we all have a deep-rooted tendency to self- view, any actions that do not spring from self-view are "flowing against the stream". Anything that flows against the stream takes a lot of volition to sustain it. Lots of volition means very strong kamma. In 1927, Werner Heisenberg wrote, "The 'path' comes into existence only when we observe it." Heisenberg was one of the founders of modern physics and he was referring to the path of atomic particles such as electrons. Heisenberg was making the point that the classical view of an "objective observer" was wrong. We can say that the 'path of our life' does not exist until it is observed. The concepts of "fatalism" or "determinism" are rooted in the self-view that there is an objective observer. If our "subjective observer" perspective makes it impossible for us to determine the future, how can we say that the future is predetermined? Metta, Rob M :-) 33260 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 23, 2004 7:07pm Subject: Paticcasamuppada using Patthana (Simplified but still long) Hi All, The following was taken from Abhidhamma lecture notes prepared by U Silananda. It has been simplified to exclude: - rupavacara cittas and arupavacara cittas - non-human planes of existence --- 1. Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102-103] Ignorance = moha concomitant with 12 akusala cittas Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Ignorance conditions formations of merit through object condition and decisive support condition Ignorance conditions formations of demerit through: - Object condition - Arammanadhipati (variety of predominance condition) - Arammanupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Decisive support condition - Proximity condition - Contiguity condition - Anantarupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Repetition condition - Absence condition - Disappearance condition - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 2. Conditioned by formations, consciousness arises [see Vism XVII 177- 180] Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Consciousness = 23 vipaka cittas (7 akusala vipaka + 8 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) At the time of rebirth, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 mahavipaka cittas (i.e. as bhavanga) or kusala vipaka investigating citta with indifferent feeling (i.e. bhavanga for disabled humans) through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 12 akusala cittas conditions 7 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. --- 3. Conditioned by consciousness, nama, rupa and namarupa arise [see Vism XVII 201] Consciousness = consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas + consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas + "all other consciousness" Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primary elements plus depending ones (i.e. all matter) At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions cetasikas concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions rupa through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa) - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas conditions kamma-produced rupa through decisive support condition. At the time of rebirth and during existence, other consciousness conditions namarupa through as appropriate (Vism XVII 201 states, "but since the whole contents of the Patthana must be cited in order to show how it acts in detail, we do not undertake that.") --- 4. Conditioned by nama, rupa and namarupa, the sixth base and sixfold base arise [see Vism XVII 209 - 217] Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primaries, 6 base matters, jivita and ahara Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with heart-base condition the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Result condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas condition the vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the non-vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with sense vipaka cittas (eye, ear, etc) condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the heart-base conditions the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, the 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, jivita conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Faculty condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, ahara conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Nutriment condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition mind- base associated with eye-consciousness, etc. through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the heart base conditions other mind-base through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the 52 cetasikas and heartp-base (namarupa) conditions the mindbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 5. Conditioned by sixth base and sixfold base, contact arises [See Vism XVII 227] Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base; or visible-data base, sound base, odour-, flavour-, tangible-data base, dhamma base Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye- contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear- contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye-contact, etc.) through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Vipaka mind-base conditions vipaka mind contact through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions eye-contact (ear- contact, etc.) through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the present moment, visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions mind contact through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Dhamma base conditions mind contact in the past and future through object condition only. --- 6. Conditioned by contact, feeling arises. [See Vism XVII 231 - 232] Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye- contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear- contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) Feeling = feeling born of eye contact, etc.; vedana concomitant with the 23 vipaka cittas (same set of cittas for which phassa is concomitant) Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana dependent on eye- base (ear-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with registration cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact concomitant with mind door conditions vendana concomitant with registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. --- 7. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. [See Vism XVII 237-238] Feeling = vipaka sukha vedana or vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, or non-vipaka vedana Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) All types of feeling (vipaka sukha vedana, vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, non-vipaka vedana) condition craving through natural decisive support condition. --- 8. Conditioned by craving, clinging arises. [See Vism XVII 248] Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Craving conditions the arising of sense-desire clinging through natural decisive support condition. Craving conditions the arising of false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging and self-clinging through: - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Decisive support condition (without conascence condition) - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 9. Conditioned by clinging, becoming arises. [See Vism XVII 269] Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Becoming (bhava) = kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) Kamma process (kamma-bhava) = cetana and lobha, etc. concomitant with it Rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) = vipaka aggregates and kammaja-rupa Clinging conditions the arising of becoming through decisive support condition. --- 10. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises. Becoming = kamma process (kamma-bhava) only, not rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) --- 11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270] Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma and decisive support condition. Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair through decisive support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 33261 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 23, 2004 7:44pm Subject: Importance of Natural Decisive Support Condition Hi All, For some time, I have been of the opinion that Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) was "the most important" condition in the Patthana. I felt that this condition played a crucial role in our lives. I was disturbed that this condition ended up as "Part C under Condition 9" in the list of conditions in the Patthana. I was concerned that was overemphasizing the importance of this condition. Having just completed the analysis of paticca-samuppada by way of patthana conditions, I was thrilled to see that pakatupanissaya showed up in the strategic links. In the diagram below, "XXX" indicates a link where pakatupanissaya is present and "|" indicates a link where pakatupanissaya is absent. Ignorance | Formations XXX Consciousness XXX Namarupa | Sixfold base | Contact XXX Feeling XXX Craving XXX Clinging | Becoming | Birth | Aging, death, etc. Metta, Rob M :-) 33262 From: robmoult Date: Sun May 23, 2004 8:15pm Subject: I have a wonderful wife Hi All, This weekend, our family went to the beach. As my wife and I walked along the shore, a red ant crawled onto my wife's leg and bit her. Instinctively, she brushed the offending ant away. She stopped walking and said with concern, "We have to save the ant. It might drown." It took me less than a minute to find the ant in the sand, get it to crawl onto a piece of paper and then deposit it where the waves would not reach it. I spent the next few minutes thinking about her completely natural reaction (I have witnessed similar scenes in the past). It is wonderful to have a kalayana-mitta. Theory is good. Practice is better. Metta, Rob M :-) 33263 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 23, 2004 9:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Larry, Please refer to Majjhima Nikaya 18 Madhupindika Sutta The Ball of Honey http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html in which Ven. Maha Kaccana was "analyzing the unanalyzed detailed meaning of this brief statement." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, > > I don't understand. Could you give me a commentary ;-) > > Larry > ----------------------- > "If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories > of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, > welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions > of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the > obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of > passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of > taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, > accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these > evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." 33264 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun May 23, 2004 10:26pm Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness Hi Rob M and all, [snip] > > Here is another relevant extract from the Bhumija Sutta (Mn126): > > If one follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made a > wish [for results], one is incapable of obtaining results. If one > follows the holy life inappropriately, even when having made no > wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither > having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is incapable of > obtaining results. [But] if one follows the holy life appropriately, > even when having made a wish, one is capable of obtaining results. If > one follows the holy life appropriately, even when having made no > wish... both having made a wish and having made no wish... neither > having made a wish nor having made no wish, one is capable of > obtaining results. > > In other words, results flow naturally from proper practice, > irrespective of any wish for results. > > If your practice is wrapped up in an "I"; such as "I want to > achieve..." then you will not succeed. Why assume an "I" in the first place? Besides, having the desire "I want to achieve..." is necessary for one to succeed in any endeavor. Without the desire to achieve a goal, success in achieving that goal would be impossible. Regarding desire, please also check Samyutta Nikaya LI.15 Brahmana Sutta To Unnabha the Brahman http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn51-020.html > Rob M :-) Metta, Victor 33265 From: Andrew Date: Sun May 23, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: Vitikkama Hi Larry Thanks for the reference which I will consider carefully. Actually, I am not so well-read and learned on the aspects of meditation to merit being considered anything near an authority. As they say, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing! So don't bet your life on any opinion I hold. :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > [snip]> L: Also it seems you hold a view similar to Gethin's in "The Buddhist > Path to Awakening", a book about the 37 requisites for awakening: > > p.349: "In all this, I arrive, via a completely different route, at > conclusions that have something in common with the findings of J. > Bronkhorst ("The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India") and > T. Vetter ("The Ideas and Meditative Practices of Early Buddhism"). > Both these scholars argue that the 'jhanas' represent mainstream > early Buddhist meditation; unlike Vetter, who argues that the 'jhana' > meditation path early on gave way to the meditation based > on 'discriminating insight', I maintain that the 'jhanas' continue to > be of paramount importance for the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. > What I suggest is that a book such as King's relies far too heavily > on Buddhaghosa's "Visuddhimagga" systematization of the path under > the headings of 'conduct', 'consciousness' and 'understanding'. This > separating out of the three categories is certainly a useful device > for a presentation of the Buddhist path, but the structure of > the "Visuddhimagga" can make it appear that much of the account of > the development of 'samatha' given under the heading 'pacification of > consciousness' (citta-visuddhi) has rather little bearing on the > remaining five 'purifications', which are therefore to be understood > more or less exclusively in terms of wisdom and insight. The result > of following Buddhaghosa too closely can be a rather distorted and > misleading account of Theravadin meditation theory. My point here is > not that Buddhaghosa gets it wrong, but that in failing to have an > adequate grasp of the theory of meditation presented in the Nikayas > and Abhidhamma, modern scholars misunderstood Buddhaghosa. The > treatment of the seven sets in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma, on the > other hand, seems to make clear and emphasize the ancient conception > of the path as the yoking together of calm and insight (cf. > the "Anapanasati-sutta"). The mind is stilled and brought to a state > of happiness and balance; awakening arises directly in this soil. > Thus in emphasizing the interdependence and reciprocity of the > various elements that contribute to the path, the teaching of the > seven sets presents us with a rather more integrated view of the path > to awakening." > > L: "Seven sets" refers to the requisites for awakening (bodhipakkhiya- > dhamma): 4 foundations of mindfulness, 4 right efforts, 4 roads to > power, 5 spiritual faculties, 5 spiritual powers, 7 factors of > enlightenment, the Noble Eightfold Path. > A: I'm not so sure I am of Gethin's view - that awakening arises directly in the soil of happiness and balance. Whilst I do tend to see the workings of namarupa and DO as interdependent and agree that our analysis of them is like "unscrambling an omelette", I also hold that panna can take akusala and dukkha as its object and that we don't have to be sitting contentedly in a cloud lotus land to attain Nibbana. Is that what Gethin was saying/implying? Best wishes Andrew 33266 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 24, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Bardo States Hi Connie, I’m always glad to pick up a thread... --- connie wrote: > Hey, Sarah, > > if we could jump in the Way Back Time Machine and return to 'bardo > states'... ... S: ....or ‘intermediate becoming’(antaraabhava.m), an idea of a pending state between death and birth, NOT to be found in the Theravada Pali Canon, but widely believed elsewhere. .... C: > There are these four nutriments for the establishing of beings who have > taken birth or for the support of *those in search of a place to be > born*. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the > second, consciousness the third, and intellectual intention the fourth. > These are the four nutriments for the establishing of beings or for the > support of those in search of a place to be born. [SN XII.64] > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu mentions "sambhavesin" and calls it/them(?) 'the > momentary state of being b/n death and rebirth', acknowledging that > there is no such thing in a strict Thera position, but that anecdotal > material from around the world seems to support such a thing. .... S: He is correct that there ‘is no such thing in a strict Thera position’ anyway;-). B.Bodhi gives the title to the sutta of ‘If there is Lust’. If there is lust for maintenance and becoming, samsara continues supported by the 4 nutriments. B. Bodhi translates the phrase ‘sambhavesin’ as ‘those seeking a new existence’. Buddhadatta gives ‘sambhavana’ = coming into existence and ‘sambhavesii’ = one who is seeking birth. Jim gave the following commentary detail before: >"OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.). The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards).< ***** C: >[How long > can it take for the bird's shadow to land?] .... S: Exactly! For others, See K.Milinda, The Cutting off of Perplexity, 7th Division: “II.7.5: Simultaneous Arising in Different Places {Miln. 82-3} The king asked: "Venerable Nagasena, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, which one takes the longer time, and which the shorter?" "They are the same, your majesty." "Give me an analogy." "Your majesty, where is your town of birth?" "There is a place called Kalasigama, there I was born." "How far away, your majesty, is Kalasigama from here?" "About 200 yojana,[1] venerable sir." "How far away, your majesty, is Kashmir from here?" "About 12 yojana, venerable sir." "Go on then, your majesty, think about Kalasigama." "I am thinking, venerable sir." "Go on then, your majesty, think about Kashmir." "I am thinking, venerable sir." "Which thinking took a long time, your majesty, and which a short time?" "They are the same, venerable sir." "Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time." "Give me another analogy." "What do you think, your majesty, if two birds fly in the sky and one sits in a high tree, and the other in a low tree; if these happen at the same time, the shadow of which one would appear on the ground first, and which one later?" "They are the same, venerable sir." "Just so, your majesty, if someone passes away and is reborn in the Brahma world, and if another passes away and is reborn in Kashmir, they happen in the same time." "You are clever, venerable Nagasena." Note: 1. One yojana is approximately 6 miles.” Transl by John Kelly http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/miln/index.html ***** C: >He goes on to mention the > Commentaries discussing images of past kamma and where you might go and > says something to the effect that part of what meditation is for is to > be able to have a certain amount of control over that process (if you > keep your wits about you)... that you can say about particular images, > "I don't want to go there". .... S: The more understanding there is of conditions and anatta, the more understanding there is that cittas just follow cittas according to conditions, just like now. The commentaries make it very clear that the image of past kamma or whatever object is experienced by the last javana cittas is by complex conditions (which only a Buddha could fully know), not by self or control. (I can add more if anyone likes). .... C: > Obviously, I'm an auto-pilot meditator... when I open my eyes and see > the new visible objects or places around me, I'm already there and can't > figure out how an end of life vision would be any easier to stay out of > than those or the places I go when my head hits the pillow. Worse yet, > those times you just can't wake up or stop the dream. ..... S: Just as you say, as soon as we open our eyes, visible object is seen regardless of any wish to experience another object. .... C: > jump back in before I'm totally outta control... ... S: Just to requote again from a couple of my past posts on the topic for others’ clarification: 1. >Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy), Bk V111,2,”Of an Intermediate State’,discusses in detail why the proposition “that there is an intermdiate state of existence” is not valid. In summary from the commentary: “Some (as, for instance, the Pubbaseliyas and Sammitiyas), by a careless acceptation of the Sutta-phrase - ‘completed existence within the interval’ - held that there is an interm stage where a being awaits reconception for a week or longer. The counter-argument is based on the Exalted One’s dictum that there are three states of becoming only - the Kama-, the Rupa-, and the Arupa-worlds . And it is because of that dictum that the opponent (in so far as he is orthodox) has to deny so many of the questions.”< 2. >I’m using Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana commentary (Ud-a),1:10, Bahiya. <....> “ ‘With respect to the seen...merely the seen (di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m)’: with respect to a sight-base (ruupaayatane) (there will be) merely that seen by means of eye-consciousness.” etc .... “When you, Bahiya, are not therein (tato tva.m Baahiya na tattha), then you, Bahiya, will be neither here nor there nor, additionally, in both(tato tva.m Baahiya nev’idha na hura.m na ubhayamantarena)- this alone is the end of dukkha.” .... <...> Ud-a adds: “It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore, those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg Aiv 70ff) and ‘Those who are become or those seeking becoming’(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such thing)’, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]...., whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who, in the former word, are spoken of as ‘those who are become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed, being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again, (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been abandoned....” S: There is a lot more detail, but I’ll leave it here with this last quote given in Ud-a on the same subject: “For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the (canonical)Pali, what business is there in postulating an intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?”< Always good to hear from you Connie. Any further comments most welcome. With metta, Sarah ====== 33267 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon May 24, 2004 2:35am Subject: Impersonality Dear Group, There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no encompassment by divine love ... Probably Mondayitis. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33268 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 24, 2004 2:51am Subject: Pariyatti, PHOTOS, quick routes to becoming a sotapanna & Snakes Hi Christine, I agreed with Nina - good textual quotes on the importance of pariyatti. As you also said to Jack, ‘no need to hesitate to give your opinion....’etc. All views very welcome;-) On PHOTOS in the album - a good post and I appreciate your encouragement to all: >"Whatever breathing beings there may be. No matter whether they are frail or firm, With none excepted, be they long or big Or middle-sized, or be they short or small Or thick, as well as those seen or unseen, Or whether they are dwelling far or near" .... we're all here in the dsg photo album! Come and join us!< On off-topic PHOTOS, see* On the quick route to becoming a sotapanna thread, contrary to what was said in the article you quoted from, there cannot be even minor transgressions of the precepts by a sotapanna. The texts make this very clear. (See Vism). No conditions at all, once the particular kilesa involved have been eradicated. The article mentioned Sarakani who was proclaimed a sotapanna at death in spite of being a heavy drinker. Again by understanding conditions and the speed of cittas, it’s like the examples of those who committed suicide. The intentional drinking of alcohol had to occur before the cittas which experienced nibbana(sotapatti magga & phala cittas) arose. The article also suggested that ‘very ordinary people attained stream entry upon listening to the Dhamma for the first time’. The question is, are we such ‘very ordinary people’? It depends on accumulations and appropraite conditions. Obviously listening to the teachings from the Buddha himself was sufficient for many with the right accumulations. Whatever the case, there never was and can never be any ‘sudden enlightenment’. Pa~n~naa has to have accumulated over aeons in order to appreciate and realize what is heard. The Jatakas and other detail given make this very clear, I think. And if now there is wishing to find a quick route or short-cut or just a wishing to reach higher levels of wisdom, what’s the reality???;-) Metta, Sarah ========= *On snakes (yet again;-)), my students told me it was a bamboo snake (viper family) we came across the other day (for not the first time). According to Jon, I had grossly underestimated its size (maybe why I was protecting the snake rather than Jon and the other walkers), so double whatever number I gave you before. See: http://www.drmartinwilliams.com/wildhkphotos/wildhkphotos.html 33269 From: Sarah Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 004 ) Dear Htoo, I think this new series is a very good one - simply and clearly presented and with good content;-). I like the way you explain the meanings of Pali terms too, like below: --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There have been a total of six Buddhists' Councils. In the sixth > Buddhist Council, all teachings were made into printed form and > translations are available. Dhamma are a lot. But in essence, there > are four in terms of their characters. > > They are four paramattha dhamma. Paramattha is made up of parama and > attha. Parama means great while attha means meaning or essence. So > paramattha means the greatest essence. These 4 dhamma are citta, > cetasika, rupa and nibbana. .... S: Very good. So any 'Do' or 'Practice' or 'Develop' has to be by cittas and cetasikas, not self as I think we all agree. .... > They each have their own characteristics and they are realities in > ultimate sense. They are also called universal truth. These four > dhamma are ultimate truth. This means that they are always true at > any time and at any era and anywhere. ...S: Exactly, regardless of whether ever taught or known or not. .... > Citta is translated as consciousness. Cetasikas are translated as > mental factors. Rupa is material. Nibbana is translated as absolute > peace. Apart from these four dhamma, there is no other realities in > essence. ... S: Very clearly explained. Thx also for elaborating on kiriya cittas. RobM also wrote an excellent post on these in case you didn't see it(post no 32020). In appreciation, Metta, Sarah p.s In 003 you wrote about Candamukhi, the ogress that lived on Mandalay hill. It reminds me of an early morning walk in the pouring rain that a few of us made to this special place. I’m not sure there’s any reference in any of the Canonical sources to the Buddha and Ananda visiting however??. Also, in 003, you suggested that Ven Ananda was the 'sole answerer' at the First Council. This was true apart from the Vinaya for which Upali gave the responses. I wrote the following a long time ago, quoting from Bahiranidana, Vinaya commentary, First Great Convocation, trnsl by Jayawickrama : >Mahakassapa asked the monks whether they should rehearse the Dhamma (i.e.Suttanta and Abhidhamma) first or the Vinaya. The monks replied: ‘ “Sir, Mahakassapa, the Vinaya is the very life of the Dispensation of the enlightened One; so long as the Vinaya endures, the Dispensation endures, therefore let us rehearse the Vinaya first” ‘. It was decided that venerable Upali would be in charge because ‘the Perfectly Enlightened One, while he was living, considered the venerable Upali as the most pre-eminent in connexion with the learning of the Vinaya’....’Thereupon the Elder (Mahakassapa) appointed himself for the purpose of questioning about the Vinaya, and the Elder Upali agreed to give explanations.’ ‘.....then the venerable Mahakassapa seated himself in the president’s seat and questioned the venerable Upali on the Vinaya (see also Vin.ii 286), “Friend Upali, where did the Exaltyed One lay down the first Paaraajika?” “At Vesali, Sir.” “In connexion with whom?” “In connexion with Sudinna, son of Kalandaka.” “In connexion with what subject?” “In connexion with sexual intercourse.” ‘Then the venerable Mahakassapa questioned the venerable Upali on the subject of the frst Paaraajika, the occasion, the person, the rule, the corollaries, and on what constitutes an offence and what does not.....’ ‘...thus was made the compilation of the Vinaya Pitaka which consists of the Vibhanga of both categories , the Khandaka and the Parivaara. The Elder Mahakassapa questioned on everything and the Elder Upali explained. At the conclusion of the explanation of the questions the 500 arahats rehearsed together in a group according to the exact way in which the compilation had been fixed...’ In the same way, it was decided that Mahakassapa would question Ananda on the Dhamma. ‘ “Friend Ananda, where was the Brahmajala preached?” <....> < 33270 From: Hans Van Slooten Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Hi Christine, There is release from suffering, though. ;) Actually, I sometimes think that the only reason I study the dhamma is because I was raised Catholic, and as I moved away from the Church I felt the need to replace it with something else (I've always been a fairly "spiritual" person). After much searching, Buddhism seemed to best fit my understanding of the world. There were a couple of years where I still held to a belief in a creator god, and still wanted to believe in a being that could be prayed to for help. However, over time, that belief has disappeared from my mind. That has less to do with me being diligent in my dhamma practice and more to do with my skeptical mind. It almost sounds like you are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :) Regards, Hans ----- Original Message ----- From: "christine_forsyth" To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 4:35 AM Subject: [dsg] Impersonality Dear Group, There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no encompassment by divine love ... Probably Mondayitis. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Yahoo! Groups Links 33271 From: Date: Mon May 24, 2004 1:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/24/04 6:00:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the > definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking > over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of > Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong > enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all > existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is > no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no > answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no > encompassment by divine love ... > > Probably Mondayitis. > > metta and peace, > ======================== Did you ever have a small stone in your shoe which constantly rubbed against your foot causing pain, but you were so involved with other matters, and so inured to the constant irritation, that you barely noticed the discomfort? But finally, when it was possible to turn your attention to the earlier nearly subliminal discomfort, you took off the shoe, let the pebble go, and then, after putting the shoeback on and walking again, you noticed the amazingly sweet relief? This is what I believe the liberation of nibbana is like. It is the reaching of an oasis in the burning desert after a long, hard trek, or entering a cool cave providing escape from the ever scorching sun. You can now function better than ever, and the misery that you became so used to that you barely noted it is gone, gone beyond, fully gone ... may it be so! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33272 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 24, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: Impersonality Hi Christine and all, The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught. All fabrications/the fabricated/sankhara are anatta/not self: All fabrications/the fabricated/sankhara are to be seen as they actually are with right discernment thus: "They are not mine. They I am not. They are not my self." It has nothing to do with being impersonal or not, nothing to do with whether or not there is Great Being at the end of it, reunion with relatives, answer to prayers and petitions, companionship of any sort, encompassment by divine love ... If it is Mondayitis, see it as it actually is thus with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > There was mention of anatta elsewhere, and I read again the > definition in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Afterwards,I was thinking > over one of the titles of the Buddha anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of > Impersonality'. Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong > enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all > existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is > no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no > answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no > encompassment by divine love ... > > Probably Mondayitis. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33273 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread ( 004 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > I think this new series is a very good one - simply and clearly presented > and with good content;-). I like the way you explain the meanings of Pali > terms too, like below: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind message. I have been writing with the heading numbered not because to teach but because to tie up all messages that have a link in a way. I am not an expert although I have been trying to talk on different topics. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I may possibly stay domant for a while. 33274 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:41am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 005 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta is thought to be consciousness, mind, spirit etc etc. But it does not equate with them. Consciousness is a translated word for citta. So there may be different meanings in the term consciousness but citta does not. Citta has its own character. Consciousness the simple term means a state of awareness to self and the surrounding. This state is to big for citta. Because citta only lasts just a moment, possibly less than a billionth second. This again is because to be aware of the surrounding, there have to happen billions and billions of citta. So the second meaning of consciousness becomes needed to define. This second meaning is direct equivalent to citta. This consciousness is not like the first term simple consciousness. So it is needed to be careful whenever 'consciousness' the word appears, this should be assumed as 'citta' in the setting of dhamma talking. Again, citta as a single moment is quite far away from understandability. But to understand citta, simple English is needed to explain what citta means. Citta is a nature which is aware of its specific object. This capability of awareness is the characteristic of citta. For example, there are lobha cittas or lobha mula cittas. Lobha means craving. It is a special desire which itself has been deluded by ignorance and it has a strong force of attraction to do things. Lobha is like thirst. While thirst is craving for water, lobha is craving for sensual things or other subtle things. Mula means root. Lobha cittas arise when a conventional being has a strong desire for something with deluded mind. Example: when a man win the lottery. But in that example, to be aware of that there is lobha, there have to arise billions of lobha cittas. But each citta has their own object to be aware of. This matter will be explained in the course of talking on citta to some detail. There are different kind of citta in our daily life and these will be delineated in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33275 From: icarofranca Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:49am Subject: Re: Sleep Dear Chris! > > My question is: How many watches of the night are there? When, > then, is one supposed to sleep? As a Military Officer I've learned up: OFFICERS AND NURSES ON DUTY DON'T SLEEP!!! We are special people untouchable by human failures as sleep and famine, Chris! Ah... many authors consider the Vimutthimagga as a forerunner of the Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga. I don't think so: the scope of these works are slighly different. I didn't read it yet, but I intend to do it. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33276 From: icarofranca Date: Mon May 24, 2004 9:08am Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness Dear Schlooten > I have a bit of a "beginner" question: > > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching > determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was > common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Since there aren't a "self" to take improvable decisions, each being just follow his own accumulations. The definition of these concept, "Accumulation", is the touchstone of all Nina Van Gorkon's discussion on these part of her work. Better, more generalizated and wider in scope than "Karma", The Accumulation is somewhat alike some remarks on Fuzzy Logic, where one can get a glimpse at how sets of probabilistic densities are conjoined with sets of dispersions making a unique path to raise up for human senses. I've saw robots acting by these kind of logic without any "Self"or something similar. At some set of accumulations one get a path to tread up, with other sets, other paths! > I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula citta > are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It > all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the > right answer ;). --------------------------------------------------------------------- One must get rid of Akusala patterns to entry the stream of Buddhistic Doctrine, dear Slooten! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Any clarification you can give this beginner would be appreciated.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Relax. Take a deep breath, a carafe of good Burgundy or Beaujolais and continue to read Nina's works. They are the best effort to make the fundamental Abhidhamma understandable for western mind. (If you aren't fond of drinking, you can put the wine aside!) Mettaya, Ícaro 33277 From: icarofranca Date: Mon May 24, 2004 9:13am Subject: Re: Impersonality Dear Chris: > Probably Mondayitis. You are reading Jon Davis' Garfield comics so much, dear Chris! However, He (Jon Davis and don't Garfield, of course!) is Buddhist of Pureland dispensation. Nevermind. Reading your Vimmuthimagga such Mondayitis will surely disappear... and don't forget, dear: NURSES AND OFFICERS DON'T SLEEP!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 33278 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Mindfulness Ha Hans, welkom hier. Are you Dutch, your name is Dutch. op 23-05-2004 22:19 schreef Hans Van Slooten op hans@h...: > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching > determinism (wasn't he actually teaching against the determinism that was > common in his day?) then *what* is making the decision to develop awareness? N: As a good friend wrote off line ;-)): phenomena dependent on conditions--that is, that there is no one 'behind' > them, doing the deciding--is the beginning of understanding of the > buddhadhamma, I THINK.> This issue will gradually be solved in the course of your study. For me personally, it does not help to reason much, having long debates with logics, abstract definitions, etc. Once upon a time you took up a book and started to study and to reflect on the Dhamma. There were conditions already to do so. Maybe those conditions were stemming from the past, even past lives. Continue studying, and as you hear about ways of kusala there will be more conditions for performing those. You will accumulate kusala and understanding and that in itself is a condition for more of the same. After a while you will see that what was an issue before is no longer an issue. Is there anything you would like to ask, such as on the subject of B.D.L.? Please do so. H: I guess I'm just really confused as to how the conditions for kusula citta > are made to arise if we are unable to do anything to make them arise.. It > all seems like its determinism without a "self" (which I know isn't the > right answer ;). N: Association with the right friends in Dhamma, listening and considering, and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Reading suttas that instill confidence in the Dhamma. Nina. 33279 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 King Yama then questioned him about the third divine messenger: ³But my good man, have you not seen among people a woman or a man who had died one day ago or two, or three days ago, the corpse being swollen, discoloured and festering?² ³Yes, Lord, this I have seen.² ³Then, my good man, did it never occur to you who are intelligent and old enough, ŒI too am subject to death and cannot escape it. Let me now do noble deeds by body, speech and mind²?² ³No, Lord, I could not do it. I was negligent.² We then read that he had to suffer as the result of his evil deeds grievous torments in hell. The next day, we discussed this sutta with Acharn Sujin. She said, ³You father is a deva messenger.² Lodewijk remarked that all that is said in this sutta is litterally true with regard to our life with my father. He said that he had to lift my father from his own filth, clean him and put him to bed. King Yama¹s question about whether we have seen the Divine Messengers is a pertinent reminder of the truth. We cannot deny that we see the deva messengers, and we should remember not to be neglectful. Acharn Sujin said that we cannot escape seeing such things in the circumstances of our life, but that it is most important to understand realities. We should develop understanding of seeing and visible object since these are realities that occur all the time. Seeing conditions thinking about what we see. We should know when we are lost in the ocean of concepts, the ocean of ignorance and clinging. If there is no understanding we are full of the idea of self. Lodewijk said that the sutta reminds us to perform noble deeds through body, speech and mind. He asked whether there are any limits to good deeds? Acharn Sujin said that deeds and speech depend on the citta that motivates them. When mettå, loving kindness, arises, speech and deeds will be motivated by mettå. We should not merely think about having more mettå and practising it. When we have more understanding, kusala can become purer. If we do not consider the citta that arises, we may merely think of ourselves. When we are in the company of others we may behave in an agreeable manner and speak pleasant words, but if we do not consider the citta at that moment, there is attachment to ourselves or conceit. We may have conceit and we want to be considered a good person by our fellowmen. **** Nina 33280 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Meaning fully drawn out' , Co. Hi Jon, Victor, Hasituppada, op 23-05-2004 09:50 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: Victor: >> Anguttara Nikaya II.25 >> Neyyattha Sutta >> A Meaning to be Inferred >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> "Monks, these two slander* the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains >> a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning >> has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse >> whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning >> needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." Jon: [*Regarding the reference to 'slander' here, the PTS translation uses > 'misrepresent', a somewhat less pejorative term. I'm not sure which > better represents the original Pali.] N: Victor, I am glad you give us this sutta. Short suttas are so compact, but they imply a lot of meaning. You like word derivations. First the Pali title: neyyattha: the meaning which is to be inferred, deduced or implied. Neti: to guide, neyya: to be guided, attha; meaning. Thus actually, the meaning of the sutta you need guidance about. I shall now render part of the Co I have in Thai. First an example of someone who says that the sutta should be explained further: the Buddha speaks to the bhikkhus about this one person, these two, three, four persons, etc. The Co states: Another example in the Commentary about a foolish person. The three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta have been explained by the Buddha: The foolish person thinks that this sutta still has to be explained further and gives the interpretation that all conditioned realities are permanent, all conditioned realities are happiness, sukkha, all dhammas are self, atta.> This is an example of a foolish person who thinks that the sutta which has already been further explained should still be further explained. This commentary reminds me to read the suttas very carefully, and it explains that I need the Abhidhamma in order to understand the deep meaning of there being no person, of anatta. It reminds me also that I need to apply what the Abhidhamma teaches by vipassana. The three characteristics are characteristics of ultimate realities, and thus these should be further investigated by vipassana. This is how I feel personally about it. What Hasituppada writes are also my feelings about it, except that I, instead of a meditation session, take the application of vipassana in a wider sense (well, any place, any time): H: N: Yes, through vipassana it is as if we read all the suttas with a different eye, they become so inspiring! I think Sutta, Abhidhamnma and vipassana go hand in hand. Take M.N.2, All the Taints. To be abandoned by enduring. It is about the monk's sila, but we can apply it in our situation. Enduring cold, heat, unwelcome words, bodily pain. This brings us to the satipatthanasutta, clear comprehension: the bhikkhu has to have clear comprehension when wearing robes and bowl, etc. We see again that sila, vinaya included, should never be separated from satipatthana. We are reminded to be aware of whatever appears through the six doorways, and these are the paramattha dhammas as taught in the Abhidhamma. Nama and rupa, nothing else. Heat and cold: they are rupas appearing through the bodysense, even now. Unwelcome words: these also are heard now and then. Sound is a rupa, thinking of words is nama. Philip asked about loathsomeness of the body in daily life: yes, it occurs time and again. It brings us to reality: what we take for the body are only rupa elements. Softness, heardness, etc. All sections of the satipatthanasutta cause us to wake up from our dreams and be aware of nama and rupa. Nina. 33281 From: icarofranca Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:20am Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness Hi Rob!!! > In 1927, Werner Heisenberg wrote, "The 'path' comes into existence > only when we observe it." Heisenberg was one of the founders of > modern physics and he was referring to the path of atomic particles > such as electrons. Heisenberg was making the point that the classical > view of an "objective observer" was wrong. We can say that the 'path > of our life' does not exist until it is observed. The concepts > of "fatalism" or "determinism" are rooted in the self-view that there > is an objective observer. If our "subjective observer" perspective > makes it impossible for us to determine the future, how can we say > that the future is predetermined? Bertrand Russell once said that there aren't so much philosophical derivations to be coined up from present day Physical achievements. Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Group Theory,etc, are only very sophisticated applications of Pure Mathematics to ultimate pragmatic problems, very very afar of day-to-day human commonsense. Today Heisenberg's developments seems to be usual, but his application of Matrix Algebra, Eigenvalues, Eigenfunctions and Non- commutativity on Path Dynamics was a very bold jump out of Classical Mechanics scheme! But what one could say about it concerning Philosophy? At Renascence such comprised mentality really existed: Mathematics, Physics and Philosophy were good neighbors...but with Kepler, Copernicus and Galileo such age of philosophical deterrence disappeared. You can derive a existential "Subjective Observer" from its Quantum Mechanical similar, but such ideas has their own niches to be concerned on. Mettaya, Ícaro > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33282 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon May 24, 2004 10:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 006 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta is one of ultimate realities. Definition of citta has been discussed in the previous post. There are immeasurable and enormous amount of cittas in any given moment. Even though there are many many cittas, in terms of thier character, there is a single nature. That is capability of awareness to its object or knowing of its object. Although citta is just only one reality, depending on its accompanying cetasikas ( cetasika will be discussed in later posts ), citta becomes many in terms of its associated cetasika or mental factors. Due to these mental factors, citta gets different names. There are 89 cittas in total. Again if 8 lokuttara cittas or 8 supramundane consciousness are seen as 40 lokuttara cittas, then there will be 121 cittas in total. Cittas may be grouped as kamavacara cittas, rupavacara cittas, arupavacara cittas, and lokuttara cittas in terms of their origin or where they arise or which sphere of realm they arise. Kamavacara is composed of kama + avacara. Kama means sensual things like sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. Realms where these things prevail are called sensual sphere or kama bhumi. Again bhumi means realm. Bhumi are where sattas with the same characteristics dwell and stay. Avacara means frequently arising. So kamavacara means 'frequently arising in sensual sphere or kama bhumi.' Kama bhumis are niriya or hell, tiracchana or animal, peta or hungry ghost, asurakara or demon, manussa or human, and 6 deva realms. So kamavacara cittas are cittas that frequently arising in these 11 bhumis or realms. This does not mean that kamavacara cittas do not arise in other non- sensual sphere. But there are some limitation and they will be discussed in due course. Rupavacara comprises rupa and avacara. Rupa here means rupa brahmas. So rupavacara means frequently arising in rupa brahma realms. Again this does not mean rupavacaras cittas arise only in rupa brahma realms. They are frequent in rupa brahma realms but they are still possible in other realms such as human and deva. Arupavacara composes of arupa and avacara. These cittas frequently arise in arupa brahma realms. But they can still arise in manussa or human realm, deva realms and rupa brahma realms. Lokuttara is made up of loka and uttara. Loka means kama loka or sensual sphere, rupa loka or fine material sphere, and arupa loka or immaterial sphere. Lokuttara means not related to these three loka or three sphere and lokuttara cittas are beyond loka or spheres of sense, fine material, and immaterial. Lokuttara cittas are the highest and the greatest of all cittas. In terms of the sphere where citta frequently arises, cittas are grouped into kamavacara, rupavacara, arupavacara and lokuttara. There are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas, 12 arupavacara cittas and 8 lokuttara cittas. So altogether there will be 54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89 cittas. If lokuttara citta arises with jhana then there will be 40 lokuttara cittas. In that case 54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121 cittas can be considered as a total. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33283 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 24, 2004 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Meaning fully drawn out' , Co. Hi Nina and all, So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following discourses? If so, how? Anguttara Nikaya II.23 Abhasita Sutta What Was Not Said Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-023.html Anguttara Nikaya II.25 Neyyattha Sutta A Meaning to be Inferred Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-025.html Metta, Victor http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33229 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Jon, Victor, Hasituppada, [snip] > N: Victor, > I am glad you give us this sutta. Short suttas are so compact, but they > imply a lot of meaning. > You like word derivations. First the Pali title: neyyattha: the meaning > which is to be inferred, deduced or implied. Neti: to guide, neyya: to be > guided, attha; meaning. Thus actually, the meaning of the sutta you need > guidance about. > I shall now render part of the Co I have in Thai. > First an example of someone who says that the sutta should be explained > further: the Buddha speaks to the bhikkhus about this one person, these two, > three, four persons, etc. > The Co states: (paramattha) there is no person and therefore, the meaning should be further > explained....> > Another example in the Commentary about a foolish person. The three > characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta have been explained by > the Buddha: realities are dukkha, all dhammas are anatta.> > The foolish person thinks that this sutta still has to be explained further > and gives the interpretation that all conditioned realities are permanent, > all conditioned realities are happiness, sukkha, all dhammas are self, > atta.> > This is an example of a foolish person who thinks that the sutta which has > already been further explained should still be further explained. > This commentary reminds me to read the suttas very carefully, and it > explains that I need the Abhidhamma in order to understand the deep meaning > of there being no person, of anatta. It reminds me also that I need to apply > what the Abhidhamma teaches by vipassana. The three characteristics are > characteristics of ultimate realities, and thus these should be further > investigated by vipassana. This is how I feel personally about it. > What Hasituppada writes are also my feelings about it, except that I, > instead of a meditation session, take the application of vipassana in a > wider sense (well, any place, any time): [snip] > Nina. 33284 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon May 24, 2004 1:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Hello Hans, Howard, Victor, Icaro, and all, Hans - Yes, I have left behind the belief in a creator god, and I do have confidence in the Dhamma. But from time to time there arises a yearning, a 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' feeling which grows out of the scariness of anatta. When you say "It almost sounds like you are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :)" - you have probably hit the nail of the head. I see my colleagues at work - devout Christians and Moslems who sometimes seem more at peace than I. Both deal with bad happenings in different ways - the Christian by ' bad times are Gods' lessons to learn' and the Moslem 'it's the will of Allah'. But they are not 'alone' and comfortless as Buddhists are. Howard - I liked your post but it makes me wonder. Your description of nibbana seems very like an ongoing existence. Couldn't this be the christian 'perfected' soul reaching the sanctuary of heaven and living on just as before, except without faults? I understand 'peace of mind' before death - I understand incessant re-becoming with no rest between births - but what is the final nibbana of buddhism, except extinction? ... Victor - you say, "The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught." Pretty strong statement Victor -I'd love to hear your explanation of just how you come to this conclusion. Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a Social Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) I hope this doesn't irreparably damage my image. :-) Regarding Garfield - I have to confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray Ball? Now DOG is a real dog! http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33285 From: icarofranca Date: Mon May 24, 2004 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Dear Chris: > > Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a Social > Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Hospital duties are very demanding! You must put aside from your citta the slightest idea about sleeping as a human necessity! --------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this doesn't > irreparably damage my image. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all, dear! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding Garfield - I have to > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog! > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------- No, no... I don't even hear about it. The only dog that comes to my memory now is Porthos, Captain Archer's mascot ( ENTERPRISE tv series, UPN at U.S.A., AXN here on Brazil and only Godog nows at what tv channel it's being exibited at your city, dear Chris!) "It's God to live at Dog ? Never! But the best of them are of us!" (Aleister Crowley, The Book of The Law) I will check it out about Footrot Flats... is New Zealand your home country ? WOW! And I am a fanatic Trekker too! Mettaya, Ícaro > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33286 From: Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor, No matter how much explanation there is, it seems there is always a need for more. Larry 33287 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Hi Christine and all, I come to conclude that the definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught by reflecting, comprehending/understanding what the Buddha taught in Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristics, and comparing what the Buddha taught in the discourse with the definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. I feel that intuitively, you know something is wrong with that definition. However, since you hold Nyanatiloka's dictionary authoritative, you don't think that definition is misleading and misrepresenting. Thus, insteading finding that the definition on "anatta" wrong, you find "anatta" "scary." So instead of resorting to Nyanatiloka's dictionary, why not check Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) from the Pali Canon? I think you also misunderstood nibbana as extinction. Nibbana does not mean extinction. I would suggest The Mind Like Fire Unbound: An Image in the Early Buddhist Discourses, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/likefire/index.h tml Have a good day, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Hans, Howard, Victor, Icaro, and all, > > Hans - Yes, I have left behind the belief in a creator god, and I do > have confidence in the Dhamma. But from time to time there arises a > yearning, a 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' feeling which grows out of > the scariness of anatta. When you say "It almost sounds like you > are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :)" - you have > probably hit the nail of the head. I see my colleagues at work - > devout Christians and Moslems who sometimes seem more at peace than > I. Both deal with bad happenings in different ways - the Christian > by ' bad times are Gods' lessons to learn' and the Moslem 'it's the > will of Allah'. But they are not 'alone' and comfortless as > Buddhists are. > > Howard - I liked your post but it makes me wonder. Your > description of nibbana seems very like an ongoing existence. > Couldn't this be the christian 'perfected' soul reaching the > sanctuary of heaven and living on just as before, except without > faults? I understand 'peace of mind' before death - I understand > incessant re-becoming with no rest between births - but what is the > final nibbana of buddhism, except extinction? ... > > Victor - you say, "The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's > dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha > taught." Pretty strong statement Victor -I'd love to hear your > explanation of just how you come to this conclusion. > > Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a Social > Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) I hope this doesn't > irreparably damage my image. :-) Regarding Garfield - I have to > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog! > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33288 From: Date: Mon May 24, 2004 3:57pm Subject: Vism.XIV 79 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 79. Again, it is of five kinds as born of one, born of two, born of three, born of four, and not born of anything. Herein, what is kamma-born only or consciousness-born only is called 'born of one'. Of these, materiality of the faculties, together with the heart-basis, is kamma-born only; the two intimations are consciousness-born only. But what is born [now] of consciousness and [now] of temperature is called 'born of two'. That is the sound base only.(33) What is born of temperature, consciousness, and nutriment [452] is called 'born of three'. But that is the three beginning with 'lightness' only. What is born from the four beginning with kamma is called 'born of four'. That is all the rest except 'matter as characteristic'. --------------------- note 33. ' "The sound base only": here some say, "The consciousness-born is always intimative (savi~n~nattika)". The Ancients say, "There is sound due to the intervention (vipphaara) of applied thought that does not intimate". While depending on the word of the Great Commentary that puts it thus, "Intimatable (cognizable) through the ear by means of the sound due to applied thought's intervention", still there is also need of the arising of consciousness-originated sound without intimation (cognition) for because of the words "For the intimation (cognition) is not due to intimating speech" (?), it arises together with sound not intimatable (cognizable) through the ear. Others, however, do not reject the Great Commentary's statement and they comment on its intention. How? [They say that] the non-intimation (non-cognition) through the ear of the sound activated due to applied thought's intervention is stated in the Suttas with this intention, "He tells by hearing with the divine ear the subtle sound that is conascent with the intimation, originated by applied thought, and consisting in movement of the tongue and palate, and so on" (cf. A.i,171), and that in the Pa.t.thaana (P.tn.1,7) the state of object condition for ear-consciousness is stated with reference to gross sound' (Pm. 460.) 33289 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Larry, Did you read and reflect on the Ven Maha Kaccana's analysis of the unanalyzed detailed meaning of the brief statement "If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." ? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, > > No matter how much explanation there is, it seems there is always a need > for more. > > Larry 33290 From: Philip Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:16pm Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife Hello Rob, and all > This weekend, our family went to the beach. As my wife and I walked > along the shore, a red ant crawled onto my wife's leg and bit her. > Instinctively, she brushed the offending ant away. She stopped > walking and said with concern, "We have to save the ant. It might > drown." I enjoyed this story when I read it, and thought "mudita." Later as I walked in the park, I saw a park worker using a power cutter to cut away some long grass and I found myself wondering about how many insencts were being killed. I think this provided a nice little example of how hearing about someone else's kusala can lead to kusala arising though us, both immediately and in a conditioned way later. > Theory is good. Practice is better. A timely reminder for me. I'm so fascinated by reading about kusala and akusala etc that I am still not examining them in the moment as much as I will one day soon. Study > Practice > Realization, right? Metta, Phil 33291 From: Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor, "Nothing there to relish" sounds like a path moment. Nice work if you can get it. Larry ------------------------ "If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." 33292 From: Philip Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: Impersonality Hello Christine, and all > Does anyone else ever wonder if they are strong > enough for the task of penetrating the impersonality of all > existence and why they're even attempting it? After all, there is > no Great Being at the end of it, no reunion with relatives, no > answer to prayers and petitions, no companionship of any sort, no > encompassment by divine love ... Ph: I think about this a lot. For example, yesterday I happened across a maudlin movie on TV in which a young many dying of AIDS lay in his mother's arms and she read the wonderful "Goodnight Moon" to him. It brought me into the future, when I or Naomi will lie dying, one of us before the other, and there will be no hope of reunion. Will we resist the urge to believe in a comforting falsehood at that time? Will I tell her a falsehood or strugle to believe her's in order to make the parting easier? The notion of reunion beyond death is carried on in Japanese Buddhism - at least in the folk religion aspects of it. There is talk of "ano yo" - that world - where souls go after death, beyond a river. I don't know if loved ones have a reunion beyond that river, but there is the pure land people go to, in some traditions. "Ano yo" is commonly used in most traditions. And during the Obon festival in summer, the spirits of ancestors return to earth and are said to be reassured by the sight of people dancing the harmonious Obon dance. Even when we read about khamma, there is always this talk of "her" or "his" past life - how can we use such a personal pronoun to refer to a being whose only connection to the living being is a single rebirth citta? I think in some sense we are comforted by this notion of "my" past or future lives. But it is surely much more impersonal than that. It takes a lot of courage, indeed. I wonder if I will be strong enough not to fall back into comforting notions when I am at death's door. Whether there will be enough right understanding to prevent that from happening. At this moment, I am not confident. Maybe Tuesdayitis. Metta, Phil 33293 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Larry, Again, did you read Ven Maha Kaccana's analysis of the unanalyzed detailed meaning of the brief statement "If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder."* ? Metta, Victor * http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, > > "Nothing there to relish" sounds like a path moment. Nice work if you > can get it. > > Larry > ------------------------ > "If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of > complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, > or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of > passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the > obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of > passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of > taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, > accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these > evil, unskillful things cease without remainder." 33294 From: Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/24/2004 4:51:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Hans, Howard, Victor, Icaro, and all, > > Hans - Yes, I have left behind the belief in a creator god, and I do > have confidence in the Dhamma. But from time to time there arises a > yearning, a 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' feeling which grows out of > the scariness of anatta. When you say "It almost sounds like you > are asking if you ever regret taking the red pill.. :)" - you have > probably hit the nail of the head. I see my colleagues at work - > devout Christians and Moslems who sometimes seem more at peace than > I. Both deal with bad happenings in different ways - the Christian > by ' bad times are Gods' lessons to learn' and the Moslem 'it's the > will of Allah'. But they are not 'alone' and comfortless as > Buddhists are. ------------------------ Howard: Buddhists aren't alone. We have reality on our side! ;-) And what I have acquired, to some samll degree, from my Buddhist practice is the sense that however things go, they are "okay". (And I don't find this to contradict the teaching of dukkha. But, then, I guess I'm a bit weird. BTW, there used to be a cyber-friend of mine on a couple Buddhist lists who liked to call me "Howeird"! ;-) -------------------------- > > Howard - I liked your post but it makes me wonder. Your > description of nibbana seems very like an ongoing existence. ------------------------ Howard: Well, I do accept that a possible valid interpretation of the Dhamma allows for continuing experience of a radically different sort for an arahant. But I don't think it would particularly matter to an arahant whether experience were to continue or not (except possibly with regard to being available to be of help to others). After all, an arahant would have no craving and no sense of self or lasting core in any phenomena. ----------------------------- > Couldn't this be the christian 'perfected' soul reaching the > sanctuary of heaven and living on just as before, except without > faults? I understand 'peace of mind' before death - I understand > incessant re-becoming with no rest between births - but what is the > final nibbana of buddhism, except extinction? ... -------------------------- Howard: Extinction of what, exactly? It *could* be merely extinction of dukkha and of all "things" in the sense of apparent separate, self-existing "things", and yet not be a complete nullity. This, in fact, is what I believe. But what if, in fact, there no longer were experience beyond the passing of an arahant? What makes the number 1 any better than the number 0? Now we crave experience. But why? What makes it so wonderful? I think it is illusion that makes it so wonderful. Whatever nibbana is, the Buddha, and his arahant followers made it very clear that there is nothing to fear in it. In fact, it is the summum bonum. ---------------------------- > > Victor - you say, "The definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's > dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha > taught." Pretty strong statement Victor -I'd love to hear your > explanation of just how you come to this conclusion. > > Icaro - I have to tell you some devastating news. :-) I am a Social > Worker in a hospital, not a nurse.:-) I hope this doesn't > irreparably damage my image. :-) Regarding Garfield - I have to > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer > Murray > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog! > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine ============================= With metta, Howard 33295 From: Philip Date: Mon May 24, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Hello Nina, and all > When mett?E loving kindness, arises, speech and deeds will be > motivated by mett?E We should not merely think about having more mett?Eand > practising it. When we have more understanding, kusala can become purer. If > we do not consider the citta that arises, we may merely think of ourselves. Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, feeling a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice of intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my blues, perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual image of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a bench arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell away and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see the dysfunctional in-laws. I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But the point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of the flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling. It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. It was rupa and nama, rising and falling. That is progress. > When we are in the company of others we may behave in an agreeable manner > and speak pleasant words, but if we do not consider the citta at that > moment, there is attachment to ourselves or conceit. We may have conceit and > we want to be considered a good person by our fellowmen. Ph: Good reminder. Thanks. Of course, wanting to be considered a good person can lead to behaviour that helps others, at least in the moment, even if it is not leading to kusala for oneself. I think it is natural to want to be considered a good person when one is setting out on the way. I have wanted to be considered a good person because I knew that being in the presence of someone you consider to be a good person is encouraging. So if others thought me to be a good person they might feel encouraged. Life is so hard and it is reassuring to meet "good" people. But that is wrong view based on belief in a self with a definable character. I know that. Letting go of this sort of thing gradually...no hurry! Metta, Phil 33296 From: Date: Mon May 24, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, feeling > a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had > been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the > past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice of > intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my blues, > perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual image > of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and > discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what > arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work > fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a bench > arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch > and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being > killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his > wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my > greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell away > and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see > the dysfunctional in-laws. > > I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and > whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But the > point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of the > flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling. > > It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. > It was > rupa and nama, rising and falling. > That is progress. ======================== This is great, Phil. I loved it! With metta, Howard 33297 From: Carl Date: Mon May 24, 2004 6:45pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Citta is one of ultimate realities. Definition of citta has been > discussed in the previous post. There are immeasurable and enormous > amount of cittas in any given moment. > > Even though there are many many cittas, in terms of thier character, > there is a single nature. That is capability of awareness to its > object or knowing of its object. > > Although citta is just only one reality, depending on its > accompanying cetasikas ( cetasika will be discussed in later posts ), > citta becomes many in terms of its associated cetasika or mental > factors. Due to these mental factors, citta gets different names. ......................Snip.............. > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo, I am liking this current teaching series very much. I would like to ask one question. Is it correct to understand citta as "one-thing". One reality as you say. There is only one- kind of citta, but it is flavored by a mixture of particular cetasikas. There are 89 flavors of citta. One citta, many cetasikas? Citta is "named" depending on the kind of cetasikas it carries? Thanks carl 33298 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon May 24, 2004 7:39pm Subject: Re: Right Mindfulness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Hans Van Slooten" wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I have a bit of a "beginner" question: > > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. Hi Hans, If you ask a religious person why he worships a god, he will talk about being saved and finding eternal peace in heaven. I gave up religion in 1967 and discovered Buddhism nine years later. However, the Buddhist teaching I received was little more than a variation of the religious teaching I had renounced. It involved the idea of a self who practised satipatthana and who would one day discover Nibbana. In 2001, I joined dsg and learned about the original form of Theravada Buddhism as elucidated in the ancient commentaries. In this teaching, the doctrine of anatta applies at every step of the way. It is very, very different to modern forms of Buddhism and it is not to everyone's taste: even at dsg it is a minority view. I should be careful, when talking this way, not to promote factionalism within our group, but you will see what I mean. Kind regards, Ken H 33299 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:08pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 ) Hi Carl, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Citta is one of ultimate realities. Definition of citta has been > > discussed in the previous post. There are immeasurable and > enormous > > amount of cittas in any given moment. > > > > Even though there are many many cittas, in terms of thier > character, > > there is a single nature. That is capability of awareness to its > > object or knowing of its object. > > > > Although citta is just only one reality, depending on its > > accompanying cetasikas ( cetasika will be discussed in later > posts ), > > citta becomes many in terms of its associated cetasika or mental > > factors. Due to these mental factors, citta gets different names. > Dear Htoo, I am liking this current teaching series very much. > I would like to ask one question. Is it correct to understand > citta as "one-thing". One reality as you say. There is only one- > kind of citta, but it is flavored by a mixture of particular > cetasikas. There are 89 flavors of citta. One citta, many > cetasikas? Citta is "named" depending on the kind of cetasikas it > carries? Thanks carl I agree with you that it is an excellent series. I might be able to help you on your question. In Abhidhamma, the term "citta" has two meanings: 1. Consciousness / awareness - one type 2. Mental state consisting of consciousness / awareness plus cetasikas (mental factors) - 89 or 121 types, depending on how you count One could say citta = citta + cetasikas Where the citta to the left of the = is mental state and the citta to the right of the = is consciousness. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 33300 From: robmoult Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Theory is good. Practice is better. > > A timely reminder for me. I'm so fascinated by reading about kusala > and akusala etc that I am still not examining them in the moment as > much as I will one day soon. ===== One day soon? Is there something that has to happen before you feel that you are ready to start examining the current moment more frequently? ===== > > Study > Practice > Realization, right? Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna Metta, Rob M :-) 33301 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil - > > In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > > > Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, feeling > > a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had > > been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the > > past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice of > > intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my blues, > > perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual image > > of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and > > discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what > > arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work > > fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a bench > > arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch > > and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being > > killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his > > wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my > > greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell away > > and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see > > the dysfunctional in-laws. > > > > I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and > > whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But the > > point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of the > > flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling. > > > > It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. > > It was > > rupa and nama, rising and falling. > > That is progress. > ======================== > This is great, Phil. I loved it! > > With metta, > Howard Friend Phil, I concur with Howard, this post is very beautifully written and expressed! As the Buddha taught, the mind should reside continually (while awake and not tired) in the Four Abodes: Loving-Kindness, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy, and Equanimity. These are the `homes' or `abodes' for the mind and the mind should never wander too far from them. Sometimes a response of Metta is appropriate, sometimes a response of Compassion is more appropriate. Sometimes Sympathetic Joy is appropriate. And Equanimity should always be present to assure that none of these mind states become too self-serving or desirous. I am very happy that you are finding peace and balance in your life. Your post makes me feel Sympathetic Joy! Thanks! Metta, James 33302 From: Hans Van Slooten Date: Mon May 24, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Mindfulness Hello Nina, > Ha Hans, > welkom hier. > Are you Dutch, your name is Dutch. > My ancestory is Dutch, but I'm pretty much 100% American. 3-4 generations on both sides (with some German and Swedish thrown in for good measure). > This issue will gradually be solved in the course of your study. For me > personally, it does not help to reason much, having long debates with > logics, abstract definitions, etc. Once upon a time you took up a book and > started to study and to reflect on the Dhamma. There were conditions already > to do so. Maybe those conditions were stemming from the past, even past > lives. Continue studying, and as you hear about ways of kusala there will be > more conditions for performing those. You will accumulate kusala and > understanding and that in itself is a condition for more of the same. After > a while you will see that what was an issue before is no longer an issue. > Is there anything you would like to ask, such as on the subject of B.D.L.? > Please do so. Let's hope so! I think I'll follow your advice and if any questions become clear (even if their answers don't) I'll raise them to the group. > N: Association with the right friends in Dhamma, listening and considering, > and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Reading suttas that instill > confidence in the Dhamma. > Nina. > Thanks again, I'm already finding this group very helpful, as well. Regards, Hans 33303 From: Hans Van Slooten Date: Mon May 24, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness Hello Nina, Mike, Icaro, Victor, Rob, Phil, and All (hope I didn't forget anyone :), Thanks for all of your helpful comments on my question. I still feel a little like someone just said, "what's the sound of one hand clapping?" but I think I have a little better (conceptual) idea of developing mindfulness. I guess spending more time doing rather than studying would probably help a lot. I guess it's just the intellectual in "me." ;) I still have "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" sitting on my bookshelf looking at me, though, and I think I'm going to have to try that one before I go back and read "BDL." And I should study some suttas on mindfulness... Again, thanks for the help, everyone! Regards, Hans 33304 From: Hans Van Slooten Date: Mon May 24, 2004 8:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness > > Hi Hans, > > If you ask a religious person why he worships a god, he will talk > about being saved and finding eternal peace in heaven. I gave > up religion in 1967 and discovered Buddhism nine years later. > However, the Buddhist teaching I received was little more than a > variation of the religious teaching I had renounced. It involved the > idea of a self who practised satipatthana and who would one day > discover Nibbana. > > In 2001, I joined dsg and learned about the original form of > Theravada Buddhism as elucidated in the ancient commentaries. In > this teaching, the doctrine of anatta applies at every step of the > way. It is very, very different to modern forms of Buddhism and it > is not to everyone's taste: even at dsg it is a minority view. > > I should be careful, when talking this way, not to promote > factionalism within our group, but you will see what I mean. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > Hi Ken, Actually, I discovered Buddhism for about 7 years ago in the form of the Gelugpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism. However, after a few years of that, I found that it contained many of the trappings of the Catholicism I had left behind, with a few more added for good measure! Needless to say, I moved away from Buddhism for a couple years and floated around in "agnosticism/apathy-land." Then one day I found my copy of the Majjhama Nikaya in a box of books and I began reading that and studying the Theravada texts on Access to Insight (I had read them before while I was studying Tibetan Buddhism, but the seemed to make more sense this time). So, I started reading everything I could about Theravada Buddhism, and found that it was what I thought Buddhism was supposed to be about in the first place. Fast forward a bit... and I read "Buddhism in Daily Life" and I noticed immediately that it was different from the other Theravada texts and teachers I had read and listened to. Which is what ultimately lead me here. It's still too early to say what I think (does it even matter? "I" don't exist! Sorry, I'll stop now. ;), but I'll just say I'm glad that someone on dhamma-list pointed me to this group. I've already found it very helpful in the short time I've been here. Regards, Hans 33305 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Victor, Sorry for delays on this thread. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is > dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, > it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha. ..... S: (Most the quotes I gave can also be found in the Visuddhimagga chXV1, 32f - I tend to quote from the Sammohavinodani simply because it’s a smaller book to take out with me and mark up and s’times it gives the Pali). I don’t think there’s any contradiction. The quotes said that birth is not itself suffering, ‘but by being the basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering’. Sammohavinodani 517 ‘There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering.’ 519 “All suffering that follows birth here listed, and all that as well Not listed, would not come to be without these [aggregates of clinging]. Therefore these aggregates of clinging have been described in short as pain By him, the greatest of the sages, who taught the end of suffering.” In other words, without birth (patisandhi citta) as condition, there would be not be the conditions for the subsequent rising and falling away of khandhas, the aggregates of clinging, inherently dukkha. RobM gave a very useful and detailed analysis from U Silananda on the conditions involved in D.O. For the last link, he wrote: >11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270] Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma and decisive support condition. Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair through decisive support condition.< ***** This is what is meant by birth as ‘basis’ for suffering by being the essential condition. I think it’s just the same as that expressed in the suttas. Yesterday, I was discussing SN12:64 with Connie, ‘If there is Lust’. It reads: “Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, aging, and death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.” Side note - This morning I was worried when I heard that our laundry had been lost by local dry-cleaners and had obsessed about the value and diffiulties of replacement when they said it had been stolen. Eventually it was found and I knew the salesgirl had been through an anxious time, so I took her a cake on my way home to celebrate. When I got home, I got a call to say that a very close friend and former neighbour has just been diagnosed (out of the blue) with stage3 tonsil cancer, spread to the lymph nodes. He’s a strong, super-fit guy & Jon’s age. Truly, we never know what we’ll hear or see or proliferate about next. I’m rather distracted as I write here, try to assist our friend as I can and feeling rather overwhelmed with sorrow all at the same time. Truly, birth is a condition for all this..... Metta, Sarah ======= 33306 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Hi Jack & Howard, I appreciated your comments and feedback too. .... H:> These latter comments seem to give some support to my position that > dhammas and collections of dhammas are said to be "dukkha" only in the > sense > of > being a basis (a condition) for dukkha, where this latter dukkha is felt > > unhappiness or sorrow or distress. J:> All, > I think the above is the only interpretation that makes sense. .... S: I think the full passages and definitions of dukkha make it clear that the 5 khandhas (subject to clinging) are included....not just where ‘dukkha is felt as unhappiness or sorrow or distress’. ‘..and the suffering which arises in a state of bliss...’. 517: “In the description of the aggregates [as objects] of clinging, ‘sa”nkhittena (‘in short’)’ is said with reference to the [manner] of teaching. For suffering cannot be summed up in short as so many hundred kinds of suffering, or so many thousand kinds of suffering, or so many hundred thousand kinds of suffering; but it can by the [manner of] teaching. Therefore he spoke thus, summing up the teaching in short [in this way:]’There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging are suffering.” ..... J:>(Another > allied interpretation is that dhammas are dukkha for a worldling but > only for a > worldling.) .... S: On the contrary, I understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’, ‘sabbe sankhara dukkha’ to mean that all conditioned dhammas, regardless of worldling or non-worldling status, as being dukkha because of their impermanence, ‘because of being oppressed by rise and fall’ and not worth clinging to at all. ..... J:> The 3rd Noble Truth says there is cessation of dukkha. This > cessation > of dukkha does not mean that dhammas disappear. So, dhammas can exist > without > dukkha. .... Nibbana itself is the unconditioned dhamma, not dukkha, not subject to rise and fall. Subsequent dhammas experiencing and experienced (i.e 5 khandhas) are dukkha until they cease at the end of an arahant’s life. .... J: > If we look at the Cycle of Dependent Origination, it does not imply that > > cessation means, poof, dhammas disappear. ... S: Agreed. Only at parinibbana. .... >DO points to the fact that > dhammas can > exist without suffering if we make the right choices. It gives us a way > out. .... S: Surely only nibbana is not inherently anicca or dukkha. The Eightfold Path is the way out because it’s the way that leads to the realization of nibbana and eventually to parinibbana by the full knowing of conditioned dhammas and detachment from what is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Please don’t hesitate at all when you have other ideas - it’s good to hear and consider them always. Metta, Sarah ===== 33307 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hello Victor, all, I looked at the Anattalakkhana sutta and Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition but could not find anything in dictionary definition that was misleading or misrepresented what the Buddha taught. I have included both below - could you (or anyone) point out for me the misrepresentations that are being alluded to please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ========================================================= III. The Book of the Aggregates (Khandhavagga) 22. Khandhasamyutta 59 (7) The Characteristic of Nonself (Bhikkhu Bodhi) Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Baaraanasii in the Deer Park at Isipatana. [note 90] There the Blessed One addressed the Bhikkhus of the group of five thus: "Bhikkhus!" "Venerable sir!" those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: "Bhikkhus, form is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, form were self, this form would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus; But because form is nonself, form leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus.' [note 91] "Feeling is nonself … Perception is nonself … Volitional formations are nonself … Consciousness is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have it of consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus.' But because consciousness is nonself, consciousness leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus.' "What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?" - "impermanent, venerable sir." - Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: "This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - No, venerable sir." "Is feeling permanent or impermanent? … Is perception permanent or impermanent? … Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent? … Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" - "Impermanent, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: `This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir." "Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: `It's liberated.' He understands: `Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus delighted in the Blessed One's statement. And while this discourse was being spoken, the minds of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from the taints by nonclinging. =========================== Nyanatiloka Thera's Dictionary meaning: "anattá: 'not-self', non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three characteristics of existence (ti-lakkhana, q.v.) The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self- existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. This is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions, but the anattá-doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Whosoever has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self- consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbána, his personality that walks on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Vis.M. XVI: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveler on it is seen." "Whosoever is not clear with regard to the conditionally arisen phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are conditioned through ignorance, etc., he thinks that it is an ego that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, that comes to existence at rebirth .... that has the sense- impression, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at rebirth again enters a new existence" (Vis.M. XVII, 117). While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated that all formations (sabbe sankhárá) are impermanent and subject to suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic states that "all things are not-self" (sabbe dhammá anattá; M. 35, Dhp. 279). This is for emphasizing that the false view of an abiding self or substance is neither applicable to any 'formation' or conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbána, the Unconditioned Element (asankhatá dhátu). The Anattá-lakkhana Sutta, the 'Discourse on the Characteristic of Not-self', was the second discourse after Enlightenment, preached by the Buddha to his first five disciples, who after hearing it attained to perfect Holiness (arahatta). The contemplation of not-self (anattánupassaná) leads to the emptiness liberation (suññatá-vimokkha, s. vimokkha). Herein the faculty of wisdom (paññindriya) is outstanding, and one who attains in that way the path of Stream-entry is called a Dhamma-devotee (dhammánusári; s. ariya-puggala); at the next two stages of sainthood he becomes a vision-attainer (ditthippatta); and at the highest stage, i.e. Holiness, he is called 'liberated by wisdom' (paññá-vimutta)." ========================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > I come to conclude that the definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's > dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught by > reflecting, comprehending/understanding what the Buddha taught in > Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) 33308 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Larry, Thanks for your comments too. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Thanks for the quotations from the Dispeller of Delusion. Do you know of > any discussion of the Four Noble Truths in terms of paramattha dhammas? > I'm particularly interested in the second truth, "cause". ... S: The second truth is that of attachment as cause. I’m not sure exactly what you are looking for, perhaps you can add more or: Try: 1. Vism XV1, 13ff. See especially 61 and its reference to D.O. (we’ll eventually get to XV1 in the study corner and if we continue with the D.O. corner this will help too). 2. ADL - birth, death, kamma, lobha ?? 3. Nina’s ‘Conditions’ - kamma condition, desicive support of proximity etc ***** Let me or others know if there is anything more specific as I don’t know that this is very helpful. Nina may have other suggestions. Really, I think that all the teachings are about the 4NT and in paramattha terms - all the Abhidhamma. 4NT - in brief as I see it: 1. 5 khandhas 2. Lobha 3. Nibbana 4. Panna etc Metta, Sarah ====== 33309 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness Hi Hans, Welcome to DSG from me too. --- Hans Van Slooten wrote: > > I have a bit of a "beginner" question: > > I just completed "Buddhism in Daily Life," and I'm a bit confused about > developing awareness. Nina makes it quite clear that you can't really > *do* > anything to develop awareness. There is no "self" to make aware, as it > were, there is just nama and rupa. But if the Buddha was not teaching > determinism ... .... I thought your opening questions were great ones and not “beginner” questions at all. Well, all our questions here could be said to be “beginner” questions, but what I mean to say is that it takes quite some reflection and understanding to even be able to raise the “right” questions;-). Enough chatter. You’ve already recieved good replies. I’d also like you to look at a very recent reply of Ken H’s to a similar question: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/32995 Also, you may like to look at some posts put aside by the mods here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts try: anatta - no control?, freewill, satipatthana in daily life or anything else which seems relevant. I think Htoo’s current series is also relevant - when it comes down to it, there are only citta, cetasika and rupa ‘existing’ at this moment. Please keep asking us all questions on this topic until satisfied. You may also like to know that posts can be read or searched here as well: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ Thank you for so kindly sharing so much about your background and interest too, Hans. Maybe you could mention sometime whereabouts you live in the States. Also, I’m curious to know how you came to have copies of Nina’s books on your shelves. Metta and glad to have you sharing your interest and understanding with us, Sarah ====== 33310 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality Hi Howard (& Christine), and now Victor too;-) --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Did you ever have a small stone in your shoe which constantly > rubbed > against your foot causing pain.... .... S: I thought it was a very good analogy and well told. I also think the extract on anatta from the dictionary is a very good one, Chris...so persevere with Victor’s critique;-). We’re waving you on from the sidelines (not yet opened your last post). Perhaps at times of wondering whether ‘we’ are strong enough for the task and so on, there is no appreciation of all those selfless elements arising and falling away as ‘we’ wonder on, convinced of a personality and its being a refuge in spite of what is read, considered and experienced to be the opposite;-) And Victor, if Mondayitis should be seen as it actually is thus with right discernment etc, how should Tuesdayitis and Wednesdayitis be seen? Is it really Mondayitis that is to be discerned as not mine etc or is it possible that Mondayitis is merely a figment of the imagination and that it’s the thinking at such times that is to be discerned rightly.....?? Metta, Sarah ======= 33311 From: Sarah Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor (& Larry), --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nina and all, > > So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following > discourses? > > If so, how? > > Anguttara Nikaya II.23 > Abhasita Sutta > What Was Not Said <...> > Anguttara Nikaya II.25 > Neyyattha Sutta > A Meaning to be Inferred ..... I’d like to come in here too because I thought Jon & gave helpful and direct responses, but you’ve just repeated your question. Let me try to put it even more directly, taking on board the commentary assistance Nina gave. Those with wrong view who suggest the Buddha taught anything other than the anattaness of paramattha dhammas slander the Tathagata and the Dhamma.In other words, these brief suttas are about the understanding of the Dhamma which can only be developed by vipassana. On another thread you stress (rightly) the importance of appreciating MahaKaccayana’s elaboration of the Buddha’s words in MN18, Madhupindika Sutta. The Buddha praised such elaborations by key disciples. Do you agree? Those elaborations in conformity with the Buddha’s teachings came to be known as the Buddha’s word. Do you agree? Even during the Buddha’s time, such assistance was necessary for many. Thus we have extensive amounts of commentary included in the Pali Canon and further commentaries (inc. those by Maha Kaccayana) and the Abhidhamma included for elucidation since the First council. Any disagreement? So, the further question is, without the assistance of MahaKaccayana and the other key disciples like Sariputta, Ananda and so on, can we really appreciate what is a slandering of the Tathagata and what is not? Without the Abhidhamma and vipassana, is it possible to know what right view and wrong view are? Also see on another thread* (BTW, Hasituppada, good to read your comments too....;-)). ***** Larry, I think it depends also on the individual and accumulations as to how much the meaning needs to be drawn out. I know for myself, I need all the assistance I can get;-) This is a quote I gave recently from the Netti, 53 (The Guide, PTS, also attributed to Maha-Kaccaana: “*How the Teaching is variously presented* 53. Herein. the Blessed One explains by letters, displays by terms,divulges by phrases, analyses by moods, exhibits by linguistics, and describes by demonstrations. Herein, the Blessed One condenses (uggha.teti) by letters and terms, he expands (vipa~ncayati) by phrases and moods, he details by linguistics and demonstations. Herein, condensing is the beginning, expanding is the middle, and detailing is the end. This True Idea and Outguiding (Discipline), when it is condensed, guides out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what is condensed; hence ‘good in the beginning’ is said. When expanded it guides out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what is expanded; hence ‘good in the middle’ is said. When detailed it guides out (disciplines) the [type of] person who is guidable; hence ‘good in the end’ is said. <...> “That is why the Blessed One said ” **** Metta, Sarah *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 33211), I think we can rightly say that until the attainment of arahantship, ‘there is always ignorance’. The anusaya (latent tendency)of ignorance lies ‘dormant’ in each citta and is accumulated from citta to citta, even when it doesn’t manifest. I also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold path factors being ‘fabrications’ ‘leading to the cessation of craving, thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications’.] ======= 33312 From: Philip Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:51am Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Rob > I'm so fascinated by reading about > kusala > > and akusala etc that I am still not examining them in the moment as > > much as I will one day soon. > > ===== Rob :> One day soon? Is there something that has to happen before you feel > that you are ready to start examining the current moment more > frequently? Ph: Nothing needs to happen, but not forcing anything. When I say "one day soon" it is an inkling of what's to come rather than stating an intention. The more I study and the more I discuss here, and more importantly, the more I have days like I've been having recently - with a lot of examination - the more I'll be examining. Don't worry - it's not like I'm putting it off until I finish the tough chapters in "Abhidhamma in Daily Life"! :) But it's true that I'm attached to the intellectual aspect of understanding what's laid out in there - and this intellectual attachment is something I'll have to let go of gradually in order to examine realities. I'm sure it's something that everyone here has gone through at some point. Conceit at being able to understand Abhidhamma, attachment to the terminology etc.... Thank you for you encouragement not to put it off. As Christine puts it "the danger is that you think you have too much time." I think about that line every day these days - even as I write "no hurry" or "no forcing things." Middle way, dontcha know. Ph: > > Study > Practice > Realization, right? > R:> Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna > Ph: Does this progression means that Samadhi is a necessary precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without Samadhi first? If I recally correctly, Samadhi is one-pointed concentration. Of course we need to have concentration on a rupa or nama before panna related to it can arise. I think you place more emphasis on meditation than some people here. (I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is seen as a self-driven activity. Why can't meditation arise in a conditioned way the same way studying or discussing does?) Does the place of meditation in your practice lead to Samadhi having a more central place in this progression than it would for someone who doesn't mediate? Sila is morality, the precepts. Does the above progression means that we leave behind the need to think about the precepts once we develop Panna? Does right understanding make the precepts redundant? i.e Are precepts more vital for those who haven't cultivated panna yet and less vital for those that have? Metta, Phil 33314 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Christine, Let me point out the misrepresentation in the definition: "non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three characteristics of existence. The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self- existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." The definition misrepresents what the Buddha taught as it assumes self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. The Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, all, > I looked at the Anattalakkhana sutta and Nyanatiloka's dictionary > definition but could not find anything in dictionary definition that > was misleading or misrepresented what the Buddha taught. I have > included both below - could you (or anyone) point out for me the > misrepresentations that are being alluded to please? > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ========================================================= > III. The Book of the Aggregates (Khandhavagga) 22. Khandhasamyutta > 59 (7) The Characteristic of Nonself (Bhikkhu Bodhi) > > Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at > Baaraanasii in the Deer Park at Isipatana. [note 90] There the > Blessed One addressed the Bhikkhus of the group of five thus: > > "Bhikkhus!" > "Venerable sir!" those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this: > "Bhikkhus, form is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, form were self, this > form would not lead to affliction, and it would be possible to have > it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus; > But because form is nonself, form leads to affliction, and it is not > possible to have it of form: `Let my form be thus; let my form not > be thus.' [note 91] > > "Feeling is nonself … Perception is nonself … Volitional formations > are nonself … Consciousness is nonself. For if, bhikkhus, > consciousness were self, this consciousness would not lead to > affliction, and it would be possible to have it of > consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness > not be thus.' But because consciousness is nonself, consciousness > leads to affliction, and it is not possible to have it of > consciousness: `Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness > not be thus.' > > "What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?" - > "impermanent, venerable sir." - Is what is impermanent suffering or > happiness?" - "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, > suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: "This is > mine, this I am, this is my self'?" - No, venerable sir." > > "Is feeling permanent or impermanent? … Is perception permanent or > impermanent? … Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent? … > Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" - "Impermanent, > venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?" - > "Suffering, venerable sir." - "Is what is impermanent, suffering, > and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: `This is mine, this I > am, this is my self'?" - "No, venerable sir." > > "Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, > future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior > or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is > with correct wisdom thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is > not my self.' > > "Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever > … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of > consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal > or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all > consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom > thus: `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' > > "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences > revulsion towards form revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards > perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion > towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes > dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it > is liberated there comes the knowledge: `It's liberated.' He > understands: `Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what > had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of > being.'" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Elated, those bhikkhus delighted > in the Blessed One's statement. And while this discourse was being > spoken, the minds of the bhikkhus of the group of five were > liberated from the taints by nonclinging. > =========================== > Nyanatiloka Thera's Dictionary meaning: > "anattá: 'not-self', non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the > last of the three characteristics of existence (ti-lakkhana, q.v.) > The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and > mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found > anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self- > existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. This > is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a > real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only > really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure > of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist > doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems > and religions, but the anattá-doctrine has been clearly and > unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is > known as the anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Whosoever > has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not > comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self- > consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental > phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or > without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, > i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right > light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that > experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil > actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his > personality that will enter into Nibbána, his personality that walks > on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Vis.M. XVI: > > "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; > The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; > Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it; > The path is, but no traveler on it is seen." > > "Whosoever is not clear with regard to the conditionally arisen > phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are > conditioned through ignorance, etc., he thinks that it is an ego > that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, > that comes to existence at rebirth .... that has the sense- > impression, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at > rebirth again enters a new existence" (Vis.M. XVII, 117). > > While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated that > all formations (sabbe sankhárá) are impermanent and subject to > suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic > states that "all things are not-self" (sabbe dhammá anattá; M. 35, > Dhp. 279). This is for emphasizing that the false view of an abiding > self or substance is neither applicable to any 'formation' or > conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbána, the Unconditioned Element > (asankhatá dhátu). > > The Anattá-lakkhana Sutta, the 'Discourse on the Characteristic of > Not-self', was the second discourse after Enlightenment, preached by > the Buddha to his first five disciples, who after hearing it > attained to perfect Holiness (arahatta). > > The contemplation of not-self (anattánupassaná) leads to the > emptiness liberation (suññatá-vimokkha, s. vimokkha). Herein the > faculty of wisdom (paññindriya) is outstanding, and one who attains > in that way the path of Stream-entry is called a Dhamma-devotee > (dhammánusári; s. ariya-puggala); at the next two stages of > sainthood he becomes a vision-attainer (ditthippatta); and at the > highest stage, i.e. Holiness, he is called 'liberated by wisdom' > (paññá-vimutta)." > ========================= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > I come to conclude that the definition on "anatta" in > Nyanatiloka's > > dictionary is misleading and misrepresents what the Buddha taught > by > > reflecting, comprehending/understanding what the Buddha taught in > > Anattalakkhana Sutta (SN XXII.59) 33315 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Sarah, So are you saying that there is no contradiction between what the Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated in Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha? Is birth dukkha or not? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Sorry for delays on this thread. > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > > > In the Noble Truth of the Dukkha, the Buddha taught that birth is > > dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Yet in Sammohavinodani, > > it is stated that birth is not itself dukkha, old age is not itself > > dukkha, death is not itself dukkha. > ..... > S: (Most the quotes I gave can also be found in the Visuddhimagga chXV1, > 32f - I tend to quote from the Sammohavinodani simply because it's a > smaller book to take out with me and mark up and s'times it gives the > Pali). > > I don't think there's any contradiction. > > The quotes said that birth is not itself suffering, `but by being the > basis for the arising of suffering it is called suffering'. > > Sammohavinodani > 517 > `There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five aggregates [as > objects] of clinging are suffering.' > > 519 > "All suffering that follows birth > here listed, and all that as well > Not listed, would not come to be > without these [aggregates of clinging]. > Therefore these aggregates of clinging > have been described in short as pain > By him, the greatest of the sages, > who taught the end of suffering." > > In other words, without birth (patisandhi citta) as condition, there would > be not be the conditions for the subsequent rising and falling away of > khandhas, the aggregates of clinging, inherently dukkha. > RobM gave a very useful and detailed analysis from U Silananda on the > conditions involved in D.O. For the last link, he wrote: > > >11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, > grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270] > > Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma > and decisive support condition. > > Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, > grief and despair through decisive support condition.< > ***** > This is what is meant by birth as `basis' for suffering by being the > essential condition. > > I think it's just the same as that expressed in the suttas. Yesterday, I > was discussing SN12:64 with Connie, `If there is Lust'. It reads: > > "Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is > future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, aging, and > death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair." > > Side note - This morning I was worried when I heard that our laundry had > been lost by local dry-cleaners and had obsessed about the value and > diffiulties of replacement when they said it had been stolen. Eventually > it was found and I knew the salesgirl had been through an anxious time, so > I took her a cake on my way home to celebrate. When I got home, I got a > call to say that a very close friend and former neighbour has just been > diagnosed (out of the blue) with stage3 tonsil cancer, spread to the lymph > nodes. He's a strong, super-fit guy & Jon's age. Truly, we never know what > we'll hear or see or proliferate about next. I'm rather distracted as I > write here, try to assist our friend as I can and feeling rather > overwhelmed with sorrow all at the same time. Truly, birth is a condition > for all this..... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > > > 33316 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Sarah, Jon and Nina did not have to respond to my questions. However, if they do, I expect that they come up with a straightforward answer to the question. Both Jon and Nina did not provide a straightforward answer to the question. If they do, then the answer are false and convoluted such that it misrepresents the discourses. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor (& Larry), > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nina and all, > > > > So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following > > discourses? > > > > If so, how? > > > > Anguttara Nikaya II.23 > > Abhasita Sutta > > What Was Not Said > <...> > > Anguttara Nikaya II.25 > > Neyyattha Sutta > > A Meaning to be Inferred > ..... > I'd like to come in here too because I thought Jon & gave helpful and > direct responses, but you've just repeated your question. Let me try to > put it even more directly, taking on board the commentary assistance Nina > gave. > > Those with wrong view who suggest the Buddha taught anything other than > the anattaness of paramattha dhammas slander the Tathagata and the > Dhamma.In other words, these brief suttas are about the understanding of > the Dhamma which can only be developed by vipassana. > > On another thread you stress (rightly) the importance of appreciating > MahaKaccayana's elaboration of the Buddha's words in MN18, Madhupindika > Sutta. The Buddha praised such elaborations by key disciples. Do you > agree? Those elaborations in conformity with the Buddha's teachings came > to be known as the Buddha's word. Do you agree? Even during the Buddha's > time, such assistance was necessary for many. Thus we have extensive > amounts of commentary included in the Pali Canon and further commentaries > (inc. those by Maha Kaccayana) and the Abhidhamma included for elucidation > since the First council. Any disagreement? > > So, the further question is, without the assistance of MahaKaccayana and > the other key disciples like Sariputta, Ananda and so on, can we really > appreciate what is a slandering of the Tathagata and what is not? Without > the Abhidhamma and vipassana, is it possible to know what right view and > wrong view are? Also see on another thread* > > (BTW, Hasituppada, good to read your comments too....;-)). > ***** > Larry, I think it depends also on the individual and accumulations as to > how much the meaning needs to be drawn out. I know for myself, I need all > the assistance I can get;-) > > This is a quote I gave recently from the Netti, 53 (The Guide, PTS, also > attributed to Maha-Kaccaana: > > "*How the Teaching is variously presented* > > 53. Herein. the Blessed One explains by letters, displays by > terms,divulges by phrases, analyses by moods, exhibits by linguistics, and > describes by demonstrations. > > Herein, the Blessed One condenses (uggha.teti) by letters and terms, he > expands (vipa~ncayati) by phrases and moods, he details by linguistics and > demonstations. > > Herein, condensing is the beginning, expanding is the middle, and > detailing is the end. > > This True Idea and Outguiding (Discipline), when it is condensed, guides > out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what is > condensed; hence `good in the beginning' is said. When expanded it > guides out (disciplines) the [type of] person who gains knowledge by what > is expanded; hence `good in the middle' is said. When detailed it guides > out (disciplines) the [type of] person who is guidable; hence `good in the > end' is said. > <...> > "That is why the Blessed One said that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, > with its own meaning and its own phrasing; I shall display a Divine Life > that is entirely perfect and pure>" > **** > Metta, > > Sarah > *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 33211), I > think we can rightly say that until the attainment of arahantship, `there > is always ignorance'. The anusaya (latent tendency)of ignorance lies > `dormant' in each citta and is accumulated from citta to citta, even when > it doesn't manifest. I also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold > path factors being `fabrications' `leading to the cessation of craving, > thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications'.] > ======= > > > 33317 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Hi, Sarah (and Jack) - In a message dated 5/25/04 4:35:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > S: On the contrary, I understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’, ‘sabbe sankhara > dukkha’ to mean that all conditioned dhammas, regardless of worldling or > non-worldling status, as being dukkha because of their impermanence, > ‘because of being oppressed by rise and fall’ and not worth clinging to at > all. > ======================= What is *inherently* wrong with rising and falling? My answer: NOTHING! But that doesn't mean that phenomena that won't hold still are worthy of being grasped at. Of course they are not. And attempting to grasp them, to hold onto them and not let them go, is to suffer. Sankhata dhamma are *conditions* for unhappiness, but, as you well know, more than one condition is required for the arising of a dhamma, and in the case of mental pain, the impermanence of dhammas isn't enough to constitute a cause - there must also be craving or grasping. With the end of the three poisons, dukkha ceases, though dhammas, all unworthy of being grasped at, continue to rise and fall. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33318 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/25/04 8:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Christine, > > Let me point out the misrepresentation in the definition: > > "non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three > characteristics of existence. > The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and > mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found > anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self- > existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." > > The definition misrepresents what the Buddha taught as it assumes > self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding > substance. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me, and I mentioned this before, a long time ago, that you conflate definition of a term with the assertion of the existence of an actual referent for that term. An example: Were I to promulgate a no-unicorn teaching to the effect that "Nowhere, neither on this planet nor off, and at no time, is there or has there ever been anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as an animal that is in all respects a horse except for having a single horn emerging from its forehead," would I be assuming a unicorn as a existent single-horned horse? I would not. What, in fact, I would be doing would be defining how I use the term 'unicorn' and indicating that it is an empty concept. To say there is no unicorn does *not* assume the existence of a unicorn, it does the opposite. And to teach that "neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance" is not to assume "self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." It is merely to *define* what is meant by the term 'self', and to state that this, as defined, is an empty concept, without actual referent; i.e., that nowhere is any such thing to be found. Without defining ones terms, using them is only an act of apparent, but not actual, communication. ------------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, > consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right > dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my > self." > > Metta, > Victor > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33319 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Howard, Let go the assumption of unicorn (or of pink elephent for that matter). Why assume a unicorn in the first place? Again, the Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/25/04 8:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Christine, > > > > Let me point out the misrepresentation in the definition: > > > > "non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three > > characteristics of existence. > > The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and > > mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found > > anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self- > > existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." > > > > The definition misrepresents what the Buddha taught as it assumes > > self as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding > > substance. > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It seems to me, and I mentioned this before, a long time ago, that you > conflate definition of a term with the assertion of the existence of an > actual referent for that term. An example: Were I to promulgate a no-unicorn > teaching to the effect that "Nowhere, neither on this planet nor off, and at no > time, is there or has there ever been anything that in the ultimate sense could be > regarded as an animal that is in all respects a horse except for having a > single horn emerging from its forehead," would I be assuming a unicorn as a > existent single-horned horse? I would not. What, in fact, I would be doing would be > defining how I use the term 'unicorn' and indicating that it is an empty > concept. To say there is no unicorn does *not* assume the existence of a unicorn, > it does the opposite. And to teach that "neither within the bodily and mental > phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the > ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego- entity, soul or > any other abiding substance" is not to assume "self as a self- existing real > ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance." It is merely to *define* what > is meant by the term 'self', and to state that this, as defined, is an empty > concept, without actual referent; i.e., that nowhere is any such thing to be > found. Without defining ones terms, using them is only an act of apparent, but > not actual, communication. > ------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > The Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, fabrications, > > consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is with right > > dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my > > self." > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > ========================= > With metta, > Howard 33320 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/25/04 9:22:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Let go the assumption of unicorn (or of pink elephent for that > matter). Why assume a unicorn in the first place? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I *don't* assume a unicorn in the first place. I simply make precise the meaning of the term. This is the point: There is an essential difference between defining a term, T, and asserting that there exist T's. A physicist, for example, may define an "X-particle" to be a physically measurable phenomenon satisfying a list of conditions. He may do so because such a phenomenon would serve to easily explain various observed events. A mathematical physicist *might*, now that he has a precise definition available, go on to prove that there are no X-particles. Or an experimental physicist, given the precise definition, might go on to show that certain observed phenomena rule out the possible existence of X-particles. In the history of science and mathematics there have been many instances of this. The concept of 'ether' is one that immediately occurs to me. Of course, sometimes the concepts defined are not empty. Neutrinos, quarks, etc come to mind. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Again, the Buddha taught that form (feeling, perception, > fabrications, consciousness) is not self. See it as it actually is > with right dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." > > Metta, > Victor > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33321 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Sarah, Let me add a bit more. Jon did not answer the question at all. And I did not put forth the question: Are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following discourses? If so, how? Anguttara Nikaya II.23 Abhasita Sutta What Was Not Said Anguttara Nikaya II.25 Neyyattha Sutta A Meaning to be Inferred to him. After all Jon did not say that "In each Sutta the Abhidhamma and vipassanå are implied." Nina did not answer the question either. She responded to Jon's post, but not the message where I asked her the questions above. I asked the questions again, but it is ok with me if she does not want to respond to it directly and straightforwardly. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Jon and Nina did not have to respond to my questions. However, if > they do, I expect that they come up with a straightforward answer to > the question. Both Jon and Nina did not provide a straightforward > answer to the question. If they do, then the answer are false and > convoluted such that it misrepresents the discourses. > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Hi Victor (& Larry), > > > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Nina and all, > > > > > > So are the Abhidhamma and vipassana implied in the following > > > discourses? > > > > > > If so, how? > > > > > > Anguttara Nikaya II.23 > > > Abhasita Sutta > > > What Was Not Said > > <...> > > > Anguttara Nikaya II.25 > > > Neyyattha Sutta > > > A Meaning to be Inferred > > ..... > > I'd like to come in here too because I thought Jon & gave helpful > and > > direct responses, but you've just repeated your question. Let me > try to > > put it even more directly, taking on board the commentary > assistance Nina > > gave. [snip] 33322 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Howard, Your response is getting convoluted and entangled. Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right dicernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/25/04 9:22:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Let go the assumption of unicorn (or of pink elephent for that > > matter). Why assume a unicorn in the first place? > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I *don't* assume a unicorn in the first place. I simply make precise > the meaning of the term. This is the point: There is an essential difference > between defining a term, T, and asserting that there exist T's. A physicist, for > example, may define an "X-particle" to be a physically measurable phenomenon > satisfying a list of conditions. He may do so because such a phenomenon would > serve to easily explain various observed events. A mathematical physicist > *might*, now that he has a precise definition available, go on to prove that there > are no X-particles. Or an experimental physicist, given the precise > definition, might go on to show that certain observed phenomena rule out the possible > existence of X-particles. In the history of science and mathematics there have > been many instances of this. The concept of 'ether' is one that immediately > occurs to me. Of course, sometimes the concepts defined are not empty. > Neutrinos, quarks, etc come to mind. > ----------------------------------------------------- [snip] > With metta, > Howard 33323 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/25/04 10:01:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Your response is getting convoluted and entangled. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Only because I'm standing on my head to try to get you to understand my point. Simple didn't work, so I went to complex. I see that doesn't work either. So I give up. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not > self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right dicernment > thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes - I know, Victor. And because I know what is meant by the term 'self', I understand it. --------------------------------------------------- > > > Metta, > Victor > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33324 From: Philip Date: Tue May 25, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: Cetana (volition, intention)is controllable? (was kusala, akusala, ignorance, wrong view, samatha,samadhi, dogmas, drugs and ex-Christian aunts! Hi Mike, Jon and all Fiddling around in the Useful Posts (wondering what Cetana is all about) came across this exchange between Mike and Jon from July of 2001 (#7214). --- "m. nease" wrote: > Just thought I'd add this to > the thread: > > > > "But as for any priests or contemplatives endowed with > > right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, > > right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & > > right concentration: If they follow the holy life even > > when having made a wish, they are capable of obtaining > > results. If they follow the holy life even when having > > made no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. > > If they follow the holy life even when both having > > made a wish and having made no wish, they are capable > > of obtaining results. If they follow the holy life > > even when neither having made a wish nor having made > > no wish, they are capable of obtaining results. Why is > > that? Because it is an appropriate way of obtaining > > results. > > > > Bhumija Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html > > > > mike Jon : > An interesting passage. Any idea what the reference to 'making a wish' > might be referring to? I haven't quite figured this one out yet. > > Jon Ph: A few years down the road any further insight on the meaning of "wish?" For me this is saying that it doesn't matter whether we set intentions or not -"results" will arise - or not arise- in a conditioned way. Which may be something to do with Cetana. I gather Cetana is not intention in the conventional understanding of the word but a universal cetasika that arises with every citta in a condioned way. I have only begun to learn about it what it is exactly. And what does "obtaining results" mean exactly? Eradication of defilements, I guess. Otherwise "obtaining results" sounds so materialistic. Metta, Phil 33325 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 8:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/25/04 10:01:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > Your response is getting convoluted and entangled. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Only because I'm standing on my head to try to get you to understand > my point. Simple didn't work, so I went to complex. I see that doesn't work > either. So I give up. And it is better to give up your assumption of what self is and the entanglement and convolution that come with it > > > > > > Form (feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness) is not > > self. It is to be seen as it actually is with right dicernment > > thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes - I know, Victor. And because I know what is meant by the term > 'self', I understand it. Not with your assumption of what self is. > With metta, > Howard Metta, Victor 33326 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/25/04 11:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > And it is better to give up your assumption of what self is and the > entanglement and convolution that come with it > ======================== I make no *assumption* of what self is. There is merely a definition of the word 'self'. To *assume* that a self is something or other is to assume there *is* a self. I make no such assumption. To define what the word 'self' means is something entirely different - it simply enables communication. To define a 'tree' is not to assume that trees exist. To define 'vampire' and 'banshee' and 'werewolf' is not to assume that vampires, banshees, and werewolves exist. To define one's terms is merely to make communication possible. But, hey, I *did* say "I give up." I guess it is a teacher's defilement to want to have people understand what s/he is talking about. (Agreement, however, isn't a requirement.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33327 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Howard, But you do make assumption of what self is with your definition of the word 'self' as an empty concept, without actual referent; i.e., that nowhere is any such thing to be found. In your case you assume that self as something not to be found anywhere, as you've claimed before that there is no self. What you are trying to convey to me is itself entangled/convoluted and it comes out as entangled/convoluted. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/25/04 11:31:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > And it is better to give up your assumption of what self is and the > > entanglement and convolution that come with it > > > ======================== > I make no *assumption* of what self is. There is merely a definition > of the word 'self'. To *assume* that a self is something or other is to assume > there *is* a self. I make no such assumption. To define what the word 'self' > means is something entirely different - it simply enables communication. > To define a 'tree' is not to assume that trees exist. To define > 'vampire' and 'banshee' and 'werewolf' is not to assume that vampires, banshees, and > werewolves exist. To define one's terms is merely to make communication > possible. > But, hey, I *did* say "I give up." I guess it is a teacher's > defilement to want to have people understand what s/he is talking about. (Agreement, > however, isn't a requirement.) > > With metta, > Howard 33328 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) In a message dated 5/25/04 6:05:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > S: On the contrary, I understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca’, ‘sabbe sankhara > dukkha’ to mean that all conditioned dhammas, regardless of worldling or > non-worldling status, as being dukkha because of their impermanence, > ‘because of being oppressed by rise and fall’ and not worth clinging to at > all. > ======================= What is *inherently* wrong with rising and falling? My answer: NOTHING! But that doesn't mean that phenomena that won't hold still are worthy of being grasped at. Of course they are not. And attempting to grasp them, to hold onto them and not let them go, is to suffer. Sankhata dhamma are *conditions* for unhappiness, but, as you well know, more than one condition is required for the arising of a dhamma, and in the case of mental pain, the impermanence of dhammas isn't enough to constitute a cause - there must also be craving or grasping. With the end of the three poisons, dukkha ceases, though dhammas, all unworthy of being grasped at, continue to rise and fall. ====== Sarah and Howard, My point exactly. jack 33329 From: Hans Van Slooten Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness Hi Sarah, > Hi Hans, > > Welcome to DSG from me too. > .. snip .. > Thank you for so kindly sharing so much about your background and interest > too, Hans. Maybe you could mention sometime whereabouts you live in the > States. Also, I'm curious to know how you came to have copies of Nina's > books on your shelves. > I'm currently living in Chicago (right downtown, basically), and have been for the past few years. I'm originally from Minnesota, though. As to how I found Nina's books, I believe I first bought "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" when I was hunting for material a few months ago that could introduce me to Abhidhamma study. I had initially bought "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" translated by Bhikku Bodhi, however, I found this book fairly difficult to follow. Then, I found A.D.L. a bit difficult, as well. :) But, I noticed that Nina mentioned in ADL that you should read BDL before ADL, so I decided to pick a copy of that, and eureka! everything started to make a little more sense (sort of :). So, I kind of backed into it. That tends to happen to me a lot. I bite off more than I can chew and end up going to easier and easier texts until I find one that is clear, and then work my way back to the other texts. It explains why I have a copy of the Visuddhimagga on my shelf that is barely used. Well, I'll stop chattering now and let everyone get back to more important things. Regards, Hans 33330 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52am Subject: correction Tiika vis. 75 correction Tiika Vis. 75 At the end of the Tiika text, I have corrected: instead of nutrition: temperature (utu): Here sound is included and thus thirteen kinds of materiality originated by temperature are materiality born of temperature. N:Sound is originated by citta or by temperature or heat, not by nutrition. Nina. 33331 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 3 It is a gain to know at least when we cling to an underlying notion of self, no matter what our actions are, even when we perform kusala. Acharn Sujin asked us whether it is not true that we often perform kusala for our own sake. She said, ³If one understands the teachings and there is less attachment to the self you think of the others more than of yourself. You think of helping others in deed and speech at any time.² It may seem that other religions also teach this and that there is nothing special in her words. However, the Buddha taught the development of understanding of realities and this is the condition to become more detached from the idea of self. This understanding can inspire to help others, even when one formerly was always inclined to say: not now, it is not convenient now. As we read in the Sutta, we should do noble deeds by body, speech and mind and this includes mental development, bhåvana. Learning about the different cittas that arise and that motivate our deeds is mental development. Mental development is the study of the Dhamma, the explanation of it to others, the development of calm and the development of vipassanå. We discussed our problems concerning our life with my father, and we mentioned that he grumbles and finds fault with us. Acharn Sujin said that kusala can be purer when we are not engaged in thinking about what others do or say. She said, ³We love him, but we should not think, does he love me? We show affection but we do not mind about the result.² Satipaììhåna can be a condition for having more mettå. When we think all the time of persons we may be partial, we may have preferences for certain persons, or we may have expectations about their attitude towards us and at such moments there is no mettå. She explained that so long as there is ³I², the cycle of birth and death will continue. One of our friends remarked that her father was always annoyed with her and often uttered harsh speech. She said that she tried to understand his accumulated tendencies, which causes him to be in that way. She thought of him as a giver, as a teacher. She said that a father who always grumbles can be our teacher since he reminds us to investigate more our own cittas. Patience is one of the perfections that should be accumulated so that enlightenment can be attained. Acharn Sujin said that at each moment there is an opportunity for patience, and she asked how it could otherwise be accumulated. ***** Nina 33332 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Mindfulness In a message dated 5/25/04 10:38:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, hans@h... writes: I'm currently living in Chicago (right downtown, basically), and have been for the past few years. I'm originally from Minnesota, though. == Hi, Hans, I'm your neighbor in Naperville. jack 33333 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: In Laws Dear Philip, I would like to encourage you to kusala when meeting "dysfunctional in-laws'. You know what, it helps just to think of phenomena arising because of conditions. You do not know what will happen ahead of time. Do not think so much of persons. There is seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking cittas, lobha, dosa, metta, is that not enough? And they all have conditions for their arising, you cannot possibly direct their arising. After your visit you may well think: O, it went much better than I thought. It depends on the citta that arises. Not on other people. Let me know how it went. Nina. op 25-05-2004 02:02 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see > the dysfunctional in-laws. 33334 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:37am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 ) Htoo Naing Dear Htoo, I am liking this current teaching series very much. I would like to ask one question. Is it correct to understand citta as "one-thing". One reality as you say. There is only one- kind of citta, but it is flavored by a mixture of particular cetasikas. There are 89 flavors of citta. One citta, many cetasikas? Citta is "named" depending on the kind of cetasikas it carries? Thanks carl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Carl, Thanks for your message. I am just trying to present Dhamma as simple as possible. I must say this series is not a teaching series. But just discussions. Citta can never be separated from co-arising cetasikas. But in terms of its character, citta is the only nature that knows the object. No other realities can know the object. That is why I said there is one kind of citta. In 89 cittas, there are 8 lobha mula cittas or attachment-rooted consciousness. These cittas have this name because they are accompanied by lobha cetasika. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33335 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:39am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 006 ) Thanks carl I agree with you that it is an excellent series. > > I might be able to help you on your question. In Abhidhamma, the > term "citta" has two meanings: > 1. Consciousness / awareness - one type > 2. Mental state consisting of consciousness / awareness plus > cetasikas (mental factors) - 89 or 121 types, depending on how you > count > > One could say citta = citta + cetasikas > > Where the citta to the left of the = is mental state and the citta to > the right of the = is consciousness. > > Hope that this helps. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thanks for your message. Yes, it is. Your further comments are very good and make a good sense. With Metta, Htoo Naing 33336 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/25/04 1:05:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > But you do make assumption of what self is with your definition of > the word 'self' as an empty concept, without actual referent; i.e., > that nowhere is any such thing to be found. > > In your case you assume that self as something not to be found > anywhere, as you've claimed before that there is no self. > > What you are trying to convey to me is itself entangled/convoluted > and it comes out as entangled/convoluted. > > Metta, > ========================== Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? If you do not tell me or anyone what you mean by 'self' or by 'not-self', then in saying "Every dhamma is not-self" you have not communicated anything. If two people agree on the meaning of a term, then they can communicate using that term. If not, then not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33337 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 007 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many classifications of citta. The first one has been discussed in the previous post. From the message, all new words have been explained. With repeatition, these Pali words will become familiar with continuing reading. But I may repeat some explanation so that new readers can grasp the idea well. There are 31 planes of existence. They are also called 31 realms. In Pali it is called bhumi. Bhumi is where sattas or beings with the same characters live and enjoy and dwell. These 31 realms will be explained in coming posts. But currently citta has been classified according to the realms where they most frequently arise. I will repeat them here. There are 89 cittas. They are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas, 12 arupavacara cittas, and 8 lokuttara cittas. If lokuttara cittas arise with jhanas, there will be 40 lokuttara cittas and there will be 121 cittas in total. Here there are 4 new Pali words. If they are repeatedly used, they will be familiar with readers. They are kamavacara, rupavacara, arupavacara and lokuttara. Avacara means 'most frequently arising'. Kama are sensual things like rupa or sight ( colours ), sound, smell, taste, touch and related thoughts. But kama in kamavacara means kama bhumi. So do other 2 words rupavacara and arupavacara. Rupa in rupavacara means rupa brahma bhumi and arupa in arupavacara means arupa brahma bhumi. Lokuttara comprises 'loka' and 'uttara'. Loka here means all of kama loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka that is three lokas. Kama loka is all kama bhumis or sensual sphere, rupa loka is fine material sphere or rupa brahma bhumis, and arupa loka is immaterial sphere or arupa brahma bhmuis. Lokuttara is beyond all these three lokas and lokuttara always excels lokas. Uttara means 'great', 'superior to', 'beyond something'. So lokuttara always excels other cittas. Kamavacara cittas may be simply called kama cittas. By the same token, rupavacara may be called rupa cittas, and arupavacara may be called arupa cittas. But lokuttara citta is always called lokuttara cittas or simply 'lokuttara'. Sometimes they may be refered to as 'lokuttara dhamma'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33338 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue May 25, 2004 0:19pm Subject: Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes Hello Victor, Howard, and all, I was peacefully sleeping in another time-zone while the two of you were having the discussion about 'self'. Your discussions (read through in one sitting) are illuminating, particularly when they echo, literally, years of other identical attempts to clarify communication between the same parties about anatta. This time, however, when we had the definitions and the sutta side by side, there was hope, I felt, for genuine discussion and clarification, rather than for more of what, sadly, appears to be mere 'word' games. I should have remembered the words of a good friend recently ... 'Hope is dukkha'. Victor - I don't think that you have put forward anything of substance to support your statement about Nyanatiloka Mahathera, and I believe the remarks should be withdrawn. That said, and whether you agree or not with that opinion, I thank you for your posts so far, and believe that this time, they reveal a little more clearly your personal views on 'the matter of anatta'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" 33339 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 25, 2004 0:39pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 008 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta can also be classified according to its implication on the future. They are akusala cittas, kusala cittas, vipaka cittas, and kiriya cittas. These terms will be explained in due course. If a citta is unwholesome or akusala, it does have a future implication that is bad result. That future will come as result when conditions favour. By the same token, if a citta is wholesome or kusala, its future implication will be good result. Kusala means wholesome or promoting goodness or adding goodness to action. Akusala means unwholesome or badness-tagged actions. Both kusala actions and akusala actions are collectively called 'kammapatha actions'. Kamma here means seed-potential. There are seeds. When they are in right conditions such as good soil, having wet, receiving heat appropriate to its needs, they give rise to plantation. So do kamma in citta niyama. Niyama means natural law that is no one governs the nature and the nature goes on its own. If we do good things, this doing become seeds or kamma. As seeds give rise to plants when conditions favour, kamma give rise to result cittas or vipaka when conditions favour. Kammapatha means 'kama- giving' or 'resulting in kama as effect of actions. Vipaka means result. Vipaka or vipaka cittas are just the result of our past kamma or our past performances or actions which had kammapatha effect. Examples are as soon as we start to see colour and light, that initial seeing is vipaka cittas. So vipaka cittas do not have kammapatha effect and they will never give rise to future implication or vipaka never give rise to kama potential as in case of akusala and kusala cittas. Kiriya cittas are cittas that do not have any kamma potential and these cittas are just performing what they do and they do not have kamapatha effect. Examples of kiriya citta in our kamma sattas or humans are pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta. These 2 will be explained in the due course. All actions of arahats are kiriya and they do not have kamma potential and they do not have kammapatha effect. There are 12 akusala cittas, 21 kusala cittas, 36 vipaka cittas, and 20 kiriya cittas totalling 12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89 cittas. If lokuttara cittas are lokuttara jhana cittas then there will be 12 akusala cittas, 37 kusala cittas, 52 vipaka cittas and 20 kiriya cittas totalling 12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121 cittas. In this kind of classification, there are akusala, kusala, vipaka, and kiriya citta. Akusala and kusala both give rise to kamma while vipaka are just the result of past kamma or past akusala or past kusala actions. Kiriya cittas are not the result or not kammapatha cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33340 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 0:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Howard, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/25/04 1:05:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > But you do make assumption of what self is with your definition of > > the word 'self' as an empty concept, without actual referent; i.e., > > that nowhere is any such thing to be found. > > > > In your case you assume that self as something not to be found > > anywhere, as you've claimed before that there is no self. > > > > What you are trying to convey to me is itself entangled/convoluted > > and it comes out as entangled/convoluted. > > > > Metta, > > > ========================== > Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > If you do not tell me or anyone what you mean by 'self' or by 'not- self', then > in saying "Every dhamma is not-self" you have not communicated anything. Regarding how the term 'self' is used above without assuming what self is, please check Dhammapada XII Self http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/12.html If > two people agree on the meaning of a term, then they can communicate using > that term. If not, then not. You can assume what self is and get into all the entanglement and convolution as shown in your messages, or you can use the term 'self' as it is used in "Dhammapada XII--Self" without assuming what self is, without the entanglement and convolution of that very assumption. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, Victor 33341 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: Impersonality Hello Icara, No, New Zealand is not my country, beautiful though it is. I'm Australian from south of Brisbane. I put the (gasp!) in for the other Australians (Aussies) on the List, who may tease me about praising a Kiwi (New Zealand) writer. New Zealand is our great rival in the major sports both countries are involved in. Rugby Union, Rugby League, and Cricket. And I believe a rather larger number of Kiwis now live in Australia than the other way around.:-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" CF: Regarding Garfield - I have to > > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books > > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray > > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog! > > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm I: >>I will check it out about Footrot Flats... is New Zealand your >>home country ? WOW! >>And I am a fanatic Trekker too! >>Mettaya, Ícaro 33342 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:27pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 009 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta can be classified in a number of ways. Everyone knows feeling. Everyone has felt different feelings at least once in their life. These feelings are pleasant physical feeling or sukha, pleasant mental feeling or somanassa, unpleasant physical feeling or dukkha, unpleasant mental feeling or domanassa, and equanimous feeling or upekkha. Sukha is a Pali word. 'Su' in general means good, sound, fine, pleasant, agreeable, desirable. Sukha is agreeable physical feeling. Dukkha comprises 'Du' and 'Kha'. Dukkha means 'rarely bearable' or 'unbearable ' feeling. Somanassa is made up of 'So' and 'Manassa'. 'Su' and 'So' may be the same meaning here. It is agreeable or good or desirable. 'Mana' means mind. So 'somanassa' means mentally pleasant feeling. By the same token, domanassa is made up of 'Do' and 'Manassa'. 'Du' or 'Do' are for bad. So domanassa means 'mentally unpleasant feeling like fury or angry or aversion. Upekkha is made up of 'Upa' and 'Ekkha'. 'Upa' means not extreme and but appropriate and flexible to the current object. 'Ekkha' means feeling or sensing. Upekkha means not extreme and it is just in the middle of sukha, somanassa and dukkha, domanassa. According to these five feelings citta is grouped into five. 1. 62 somanassa cittas or consciousness with pleasant mental feeling 2. 1 sukkha citta or consciousness with pleasant physical feeling 3. 55 upekkha cittas or consciousness with equanimous feeling 4. 1 dukkha citta or consciousness with unpleasant physical feeling 5. 2 domanassa cittas or consciousness with unpleasant mental feeling Altogether there will be 62 + 1 + 55 + 1 + 2 = 121 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33343 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Christine and all, On the other hand, I am not quite sure if you have considered thoroughly about what has been written. You are welcome to discuss how you understand it anyway. Perhaps you would find the discussion and clarification genuine because of your participation in the discussion and clarification. Also, the remarks are about definition on "anatta" in Nyanatiloka's dictionary. They are not about Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahathera personally. The definition contains the assumption that self is a self- existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance. Because of this assumption, the definition is misleading and misrepresenting. I would suggest go to the source in the discourses in the Pali Canon regarding what the Buddha taught. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, Howard, and all, > > I was peacefully sleeping in another time-zone while the two of you > were having the discussion about 'self'. Your discussions (read > through in one sitting) are illuminating, particularly when they > echo, literally, years of other identical attempts to clarify > communication between the same parties about anatta. This time, > however, when we had the definitions and the sutta side by side, > there was hope, I felt, for genuine discussion and clarification, > rather than for more of what, sadly, appears to be mere 'word' > games. I should have remembered the words of a good friend > recently ... 'Hope is dukkha'. > Victor - I don't think that you have put forward anything of > substance to support your statement about Nyanatiloka Mahathera, and > I believe the remarks should be withdrawn. That said, and whether > you agree or not with that opinion, I thank you for your posts so > far, and believe that this time, they reveal a little more clearly > your personal views on 'the matter of anatta'. > > metta and peace, > Christine 33344 From: icarofranca Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:57pm Subject: Re: Impersonality Hi Chris! > No, New Zealand is not my country, beautiful though it is. I'm > Australian from south of Brisbane. I put the (gasp!) in for the > other Australians (Aussies) on the List, who may tease me about > praising a Kiwi (New Zealand) writer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Goodness! I only heard about Brisbane at Railroad Tycoon II Australia Scenario:You must Connect Darwin to Alice Springs to Brisbane by train to win the game. I usually begin connecting Sidney to Grafton and after to Brisbane, making a lot of money with cargo and passengers, and then hurling headlong to Bracaldine, Alice Springs and Darwin! Simple! And, of course, I´ve picked up many buddhistic articles and my first Abhidhamma companion at FTP web repositories on Australia. The Kiwis seem also good to taste...hahahahahaha!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- New Zealand is our great > rival in the major sports both countries are involved in. Rugby > Union, Rugby League, and Cricket. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you believe in the unbelievable ...? Here in Rio there is ONLY ONE team Cricket... a ponderous bunch of gentleman and ladies dressed in white, playing cricket at Aterro do Flamengo Playground every weekend. I even thought about a match with them sometimes... -------------------------------------------------------------------- And I believe a rather larger > number of Kiwis now live in Australia than the other way around.:-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- And don´t forget to keep your Abhidhamma reeadings always updated! Mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > > CF: Regarding Garfield - I have to > > > confess I'm a Dog person. Have you ever seen the cartoon books > > > called 'Footrot Flats' by the (gasp!)New Zealand writer Murray > > > Ball? Now DOG is a real dog! > > > http://www.theblacksheep.net/footrot.htm > > I: >>I will check it out about Footrot Flats... is New Zealand your > >>home country ? WOW! > >>And I am a fanatic Trekker too! > > >>Mettaya, Ícaro 33345 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue May 25, 2004 2:27pm Subject: Re: Impersonality Oh Icaro! quel horreur! You have been winning under false pretences!!!! NO Australian Railway goes to Darwin through Queensland. The ONLY Railway to Darwin goes through South Australia!! (Capital city Adelaide - from whence our Moderator Jon comes). To check: http://www.railpage.org.au/railmaps/ Now - what would a good buddhist do under these circumstances? :-) Return the winnings? (gasp! and double gasp!!) Say nothing - the intention at the time was pure?? (Or was it??!!) Ah, decisions, decisions ... :-) As a true follower of the Dhamma and devotee of the Abhidhamma, I have every confidence that you will make the "RIGHT!!" decision. :-) Those stalwarts at the Aterro do Flamengo Playground must be expatriate members of British Commonwealth countries. (Cricket has among the highest number of participants of sports in the world, rivalling soccer - Indians and Pakistanis are fanatical players in their tens of millions). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- P.S. (Do you think there could be an infectious virus going around whose symptoms are exclamation marks!!!!, CAPITAL letters, question marks??, smiles :-), and a sprinkling of utterances in foreign languages??!!) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" 33346 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 3:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Sarah, Thanks for the refs. re. 4NT in D.O. My main quandry is that it seems to me if lobha is cause and dukkha is result then dukkha is kamma vipaka, but Htoo said this wasn't the right way to slice it. Why not? Larry 33347 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor - In a message dated 5/25/04 4:13:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO > YOU MEAN? > > > > Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually > is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. > This is not my self." > ======================== Questioner: What do you mean by S? Answerer: Why, I mean S, of course. Questioner: Oh ... I see. Victor, I was considering cutting this thread, but no need - I see that it has unraveled. Let's get on to something else when the non-spirit moves us. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33348 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Vism.XIV 79 (corrected) Hi all, I left out 2 sentences in the note. Here is the corrected version. L. "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 79. Again, it is of five kinds as born of one, born of two, born of three, born of four, and not born of anything. Herein, what is kamma-born only or consciousness-born only is called 'born of one'. Of these, materiality of the faculties, together with the heart-basis, is kamma-born only; the two intimations are consciousness-born only. But what is born [now] of consciousness and [now] of temperature is called 'born of two'. That is the sound base only.(33) What is born of temperature, consciousness, and nutriment [452] is called 'born of three'. But that is the three beginning with 'lightness' only. What is born from the four beginning with kamma is called 'born of four'. That is all the rest except 'matter as characteristic'. --------------------- note 33. ' "The sound base only": here some say, "The consciousness-born is always intimative (savi~n~nattika)". The Ancients say, "There is sound due to the intervention (vipphaara) of applied thought that does not intimate". While depending on the word of the Great Commentary that puts it thus, "Intimatable (cognizable) through the ear by means of the sound due to applied thought's intervention", still there is also need of the arising of consciousness-originated sound without intimation (cognition) for because of the words "For the intimation (cognition) is not due to intimating speech" (?), it arises together with sound not intimatable (cognizable) through the ear. That being so, there would have to be a consciousness-born sound-ennead. And that theory is rejected by Sa.nghakaaras who imagine that it is self-contradictory to say that there is sound not intimatable (cognizable) through the ear. Others, however, do not reject the Great Commentary's statement and they comment on its intention. How? [They say that] the non-intimation (non-cognition) through the ear of the sound activated due to applied thought's intervention is stated in the Suttas with this intention, "He tells by hearing with the divine ear the subtle sound that is conascent with the intimation, originated by applied thought, and consisting in movement of the tongue and palate, and so on" (cf. A.i,171), and that in the Pa.t.thaana (P.tn.1,7) the state of object condition for ear-consciousness is stated with reference to gross sound' (Pm. 460.) 33349 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue May 25, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi Howard, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor - > > In a message dated 5/25/04 4:13:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO > > YOU MEAN? > > > > > > > > Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually > > is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. > > This is not my self." > > > ======================== > Questioner: What do you mean by S? > Answerer: Why, I mean S, of course. > Questioner: Oh ... I see. When you asked what I mean when I say that every dhamma is not-self, I did not just answer that "Every dhamma is not self." Perhaps I should just answer: Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." when you asked me what I mean when I said that every dhamma is not- self. > > Victor, I was considering cutting this thread, but no need - I see > that it has unraveled. However the thread ends, as long as it has come to an end in a friendly term, it is fine. Let's get on to something else when the non-spirit moves > us. ;-) Mmmm...Christine started this thread and both of us just got on to it. :-) > > With metta, > Howard Metta, Victor 33350 From: Philip Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Phil: In Laws Hello Nina, and all N:> Let me know how it went Ph: Thank you for your concern, Nina. In the end, the trip was called off - not due to an outburst of aversion, but other circumstances. I was planning to go carrying my copy of Abhidhamma in Daily Life the way vampire fighters carry garlic. Talk about attachment! N: > I would like to encourage you to kusala when meeting "dysfunctional > in-laws'. Ph: I must say when I read "encourage you to kusala" is sounds like you are recommending that I have kusala and I could take that they wrong way and think that I could decide to have kusala. I was going to stay in the moment, watch the dosa that arose - if it arose. Ah, but that kind of mindfulness *is* kusala. So when you say you encourage me to kusala, it is not that you are saying that I should have virtuous kusala such as metta - unless of course it worked out that way. You are just saying stay aware of the moments that are rising and falling away, right, even if it means being aware of a whole lot of akusala citta such as anger at my father-in law? N: >You know what, it helps just to think of phenomena arising because > of conditions. You do not know what will happen ahead of time. Ph: I had been planning to have a talk with my father in law to air out some issues, out of an interest in trying to mend our relations. (I have resentment towards him for failing to protect Naomi from a horrifically abusive mother for long years when she was a child.) But I realized in recent days that it would be best not to plan for such a talk and just see what happens. I have been conditioned to hope for such a talk, so if the opportunity arose, it would happen, I realized. Now, that could have been dodging the chore of practicing what to say in Japanese and so on. Laziness. Or it could have been a wise approach. >(accidentally erased your words - I think it was that there needn't be so much thinking about people.) N:> thinking cittas, lobha, dosa, metta, is that not enough? Ph: I think along with the great sadness of parting from loved ones at death, another test for one's courage to practice the Dhamma and aim to penetrate the truth of impersonality like Christine was talking about is one's courage to forgive and forget when it comes to things like child abuse. I am clinging to the concept that a father should protect his child, and am calculating based on this how much we owe him or don't owe him an obligation to help him out with Naomi's mentally- ill, debt-ridden, suicidal brother. (A twin - he was pampered by the mother as Naomi was abused, but he seems to have come out the worse for it.) I hope she stays clear of anything to do with him. This clinging to the people involved in this drama and desire to protect her is something I will be aware of as the story continues to unfold. And aware that it is a story, and the mind leaps to extend and deepen the impact of stories in an akusala way. And well aware that khamma is involved. (I used to have a strong aversion to the notion that Naomi's khamma was responsible for her childhood hardships, but now I see that it was not *her* khamma, per se, it was khamma and impersonal and nothing that she would need to feel responsible for or ashamed of.) N: >And they all have > conditions for their arising, you cannot possibly direct their arising. > After your visit you may well think: O, it went much better than I thought. > It depends on the citta that arises. Not on other people. Ph: Well, the visit didn't happen. But I was feeling very comfortable and confident that my new knowledge of Abhidhamma would lead to a better trip than last time. When it came time to decide to cancel or not, I was in favour of going. But it is true that I was going to bring ADL with me. Your books do give me a lot of courage and confidence, Nina. Metta, Phil 33351 From: Date: Tue May 25, 2004 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Impersonality / Long Quotes Hi, Victor (and Christine) - In a message dated 5/25/04 7:34:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Reply in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Victor - > > > >In a message dated 5/25/04 4:13:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > >>> Victor, when you say that every dhamma is not-self, WHAT DO > >>YOU MEAN? > >> > >> > >> > >>Every dhamma is not self. Every dhamma is to be seen as it > actually > >>is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am > not. > >>This is not my self." > >> > >======================== > > Questioner: What do you mean by S? > > Answerer: Why, I mean S, of course. > > Questioner: Oh ... I see. > > > > When you asked what I mean when I say that every dhamma is not-self, > I did not just answer that "Every dhamma is not self." > > Perhaps I should just answer: > > Every dhamma is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment > thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > when you asked me what I mean when I said that every dhamma is not- > self. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. :-) ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > Victor, I was considering cutting this thread, but no need - > I see > >that it has unraveled. > > > > However the thread ends, as long as it has come to an end in a > friendly term, it is fine. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Definitely on friendly terms, Victor. That seems to be mutually so, my friend. -------------------------------------------------- > > > > Let's get on to something else when the non-spirit moves > >us. ;-) > > > > Mmmm...Christine started this thread and both of us just got on to > it. > > :-) > > > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, then - let's get that Christine!! ;-)) ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33352 From: Philip Date: Tue May 25, 2004 5:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Thank you, Howard and James, for your kind words re my anecdote. You words encourage me to continue to stay in the moment and not hide away from harsh realities using self-generated coping techniques. I thought of "the Green Zone" in which the coalition forces and corporations operate from within Bagdad. Perhaps if they dared to walk freely, unarmed, amoung potential enemies, the enemies could see through to their humanity more easily, and while there would be painful incidents in the short run, there would be right understanding on all sides eventually. Through misunderstanding of Brahma-Viharas I used to try to create my own Green Zone where I would be safe - and I'm sure I still do at times - but I have seen through that practice. It is not wise to try to shield oneself from aversion. If I am open to aversion and other akusala cittas when they arise, I can see though - eventually - to the fact that they are annata. Knowing this is very liberating. Of course I am fortunate that the form of aversion I'm dealing with is not intent on shredding me with Improvised Explosive Devices set to detonate when I walk by. (You can see I am still watching the news... :( Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Phil - > > In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:02:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > > > Ph: Yesterday I was walking in the park on the way to work, feeling > > a bit gloomy because of the thoughts of death and parting that had > > been brought on by the movie mentionned in another thread. In the > > past, I would have gone to my Metta Force Field kind of practice of > > intentionally generating an energy of Metta to lift me from my blues, > > perhaps using the fresh green leaves as a symbolic conceptual image > > of new life to comfort me. But thanks to my recent study and > > discussion here, I stayed in the moment and tried to watch what > > arose. And I experienced how dosa due to something related to work > > fell away immediately and how mudita for a woman sitting on a bench > > arose and then fell away and there was an indifferent calm stretch > > and then a karuna moment related to concern about insects being > > killed by the weeder and that reminded me of Rob's post about his > > wife and there were more kusala cittas. And there was metta in my > > greeting to a man who was painting the trees. And then that fell away > > and there was dosa because of a worry about our upcoming trip to see > > the dysfunctional in-laws. > > > > I don't know to what degree all this was still conceptual and > > whether there was a beginning of seeing paramattha dhammas. But the > > point is it was very interesting to be open to and observant of the > > flood of sweet and sour that was arising and falling. > > > > It was not Phil generating metta in order to feel better. > > It was > > rupa and nama, rising and falling. > > That is progress. > ======================== > This is great, Phil. I loved it! > > With metta, > Howard 33353 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:07am Subject: Feelings and Dreams Dear group, I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing the Teachings. This is where I have a difficulty. I occasionally experience things that have a connection with future happenings for myself and for others. I can't see any explanation of these things I know to be true, within my present understanding of Buddhism. And yet they do happen. These things fall into two categories - feelings, and dreams. They are not particularly earthshaking - there seems to be no purpose served by having them. The feelings consist of occasionally (often only yearly or less frequently) being suddenly affected by a feeling of such great strength, with a certain 'flavour' that I have come to recognise as making it 'one of those' feelings. The pattern I have developed through my life is to think over each of my loved ones until a change in the feeling indicates it is connected to that person. I wait. Within a day, maybe two, a significantly unhappy (most often) or happy event unexpectedly and unpredictably happens to that person. Nothing clearer than that. It is never anyone I am worrying about or about whom I have any information that would lead to an expectation that they would experience this significant event. Dreams happen at about the same frequency and seem to have no significance whatsoever. An example from the past: Once, just after I finished high school, and before I started work, I had a dream. In the dream I saw a workplace and various men and women who I liked or disliked or was anxious about. It was quite a boring dream, with one person being particularly unpleasant. There was something about the 'flavour' of the dream that imprinted it on my memory, that felt unusual, not like the feel of 'ordinary' dreams. Six months later, I obtained a position in the Government, and started work in exactly that workplace It was literally 'a seeing into the future'. Everything in the dream, the layout and furnishings of the physical surroundings, and the faces and physical appearance of the people, and their characters, was exactly as in real life. I never saw them until six months after the dream. How does this integrate with Teachings of the Abhidhamma and Buddhism generally? And if it doesn't ....? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33354 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed May 26, 2004 5:13am Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams Hi Christine and all, I thought you might find this interesting: Anguttara Nikaya V.196 Supina Sutta Dreams http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-196.html Some people do have intuition and vision about the future. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear group, > > I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My > understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of > just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in > each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, > and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised > that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing > the Teachings. [snip] > metta and peace, > Christine 33355 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/25/04 9:12:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Through misunderstanding of Brahma-Viharas I used to try to create > my own Green Zone where I would be safe - and I'm sure I still do at > times - but I have seen through that practice. > It is not wise to try to shield oneself from aversion. If I am open > to aversion and other akusala cittas when they arise, I can see > though - eventually - to the fact that they are annata. Knowing this > is very liberating. > ========================== Just a brief comment on the foregoing. I understand that the primary thrust of what you write here is the point that dukkha is not to be ended by refusing to see, and I agree with that. The Dhamma is reality oriented, and clear awareness is a priority. It, developed into wisdom, is the razor-sharp diamond cutter that slices through delusion. That said, I'd like to add a couple disclaimers. One of these is that at times, and we each will have to determine for ourself when it is such a time, one may be in such a state that it is the better part of valor to "look" just briefly, and to then set aside the deeper looking until one is a bit less vulnerable. These times are normally rare, and we shouldn't be "too easy" on ourselves, but commom sense should prevail. A second disclaimer is that cultivation of a mental inclination to lovingkindness, compassion, rejoicing in the welfare of others, and equanimity is a praiseworthy practice, particularly if these inclinations don't seem to come to one as easily as one would wish. So long as the motives for such cultivation seem to be largely wholesome, and not solely as a "quick fix" for distress, this is a laudable practice highly recommended by the Buddha. The third disclaimer is that "shielding oneself from aversion" in the form of hiding from oneself mental (and other) events we'd rather not see should not be confused with guarding the senses. Guarding the senses, by which I understand the mindful attention to feelings with an eye to short-circuiting the further development of tanha and upadana, and, if one hasn't been sharp enough, to short-circuiting the process as soon thereafter as possible, is a worthwhile practice repeatedly recommended by the Buddha. In fact, with regard to dealing with very, very serious unwholesome reactions, there were circumstances in which the Buddha said that as a last resort, one should even rely on a teeth-gritting act of suppression. The Buddha's practice was not entirely a passive one, and he did not prescribe exactly the same medicine to all patients under all conditions. It varied according to person and circumstance. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33356 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/26/04 4:50:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Dear group, > > I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My > understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of > just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in > each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, > and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised > that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing > the Teachings. > > > This is where I have a difficulty. I occasionally experience things > that have a connection with future happenings for myself and for > others. I can't see any explanation of these things I know to be > true, within my present understanding of Buddhism. And yet they do > happen. These things fall into two categories - feelings, and > dreams. They are not particularly earthshaking - there seems to be > no purpose served by having them. > > The feelings consist of occasionally (often only yearly or less > frequently) being suddenly affected by a feeling of such great > strength, with a certain 'flavour' that I have come to recognise as > making it 'one of those' feelings. The pattern I have developed > through my life is to think over each of my loved ones until a > change in the feeling indicates it is connected to that person. I > wait. Within a day, maybe two, a significantly unhappy (most often) > or happy event unexpectedly and unpredictably happens to that > person. Nothing clearer than that. It is never anyone I am worrying > about or about whom I have any information that would lead to an > expectation that they would experience this significant event. > > Dreams happen at about the same frequency and seem to have no > significance whatsoever. An example from the past: Once, just > after I finished high school, and before I started work, I had a > dream. In the dream I saw a workplace and various men and women who > I liked or disliked or was anxious about. It was quite a boring > dream, with one person being particularly unpleasant. There was > something about the 'flavour' of the dream that imprinted it on my > memory, that felt unusual, not like the feel of 'ordinary' > dreams. Six months later, I obtained a position in the Government, > and started work in exactly that workplace It was literally 'a > seeing into the future'. Everything in the dream, the layout and > furnishings of the physical surroundings, and the faces and > physical appearance of the people, and their characters, was exactly > as in real life. I never saw them until six months after the > dream. > > How does this integrate with Teachings of the Abhidhamma and > Buddhism generally? And if it doesn't ....? > > metta and peace, > Christine ========================== I've had experiences of this sort, and my wife much more so. (She really has a bit of an undeveloped "gift", I'd say.) When such an experience occurs, it often carries with it its own mark of undeniable certainty, and in such cases it is typically infallible. I think that it is a matter of our somehow picking up on the fact that (nearly) all the conditions necessary for the occurrence of an event have occurred, making that event a (near) certainty. Of course, picking up on that fact might well be an additional condition that could, itself, alter the flow of events. But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of momentariness (or, better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma as I see it. With regard to "predicting the future" with certainty, we in fact do that all the time. I type a key, fully expecting to see a character appear on the screen, and I'm usually not disappointed. I push my foot down on a step, fully expecting to have my body lifted therby, and I'm usually not disappointed. There is a regularity to conditionality, and our ordinary faculties enable us to see the immediate future with much certainty. The sort of dramatic predictive capacity you are speaking of is, as I see it, a mental extension of this common ability. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33357 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:18am Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Phil, > I'm attached to the intellectual aspect of understanding what's laid > out in there - and this intellectual attachment is something I'll > have to let go of gradually in order to examine realities. I'm sure > it's something that everyone here has gone through at some point. > Conceit at being able to understand Abhidhamma, attachment to the > terminology etc.... ===== I suspect that there are some on DSG who haven't gone through this yet... :-) ===== > Thank you for you encouragement not to put it off. As Christine > puts it "the danger is that you think you have too much time." I > think about that line every day these days - even as I write "no > hurry" or "no forcing things." Middle way, dontcha know. ===== I really like Christine's sign-off message as well. ===== > > Ph: > > Study > Practice > Realization, right? > > > R:> Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna > > > > Ph: Does this progression means that Samadhi is a necessary > precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without > Samadhi first? ===== > > If I recally correctly, Samadhi is one-pointed > concentration. Of course we need to have concentration on a rupa or > nama before panna related to it can arise. > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation than some people > here. (I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is seen > as a self-driven activity. Why can't meditation arise in a > conditioned way the same way studying or discussing does?) Does the > place of meditation in your practice lead to Samadhi having a more > central place in this progression than it would for someone who > doesn't mediate? ===== Reading DSG "creates conditions", picking up a dhamma book "creates conditions", going to a dhamma talk "creates conditions", sitting on a cushion focusing on the rising and falling of the breath or thinking of others with loving kindness also "creates conditions". It depends on accumulations as to which "created conditions" have the biggest impact on samadhi arising. I heard a story of a young child in Thailand who was unable to learn to read or write at school. He was considered to be an idiot of not much use, so his parents sent him to be a monk. As soon as he started meditating, he was able to achieve jhanas and recall past lives. He was able to learn to chant the paritas, not because he was able to read them or remember what the monks tried to teach him in this existence, but rather because he could easily remember past lives as a monk where he chanted the same paritas. Each of should experiment to determine the best approach for ourselves. When members of DSG speak out against meditation, I cannot argue with them. Because of their accumulations, meditation may be a complete waste of their time. There are many cases in the Suttas where people become enlightened without any meditation in that existence. The question of "is meditation the right path" should be unasked. This question presupposes that there is a "right path" for all people. ===== > > Sila is morality, the precepts. Does the above progression means > that we leave behind the need to think about the precepts once we > develop Panna? Does right understanding make the precepts redundant? > i.e Are precepts more vital for those who haven't cultivated panna > yet and less vital for those that have? You have raised a number of excellent questions. Here is an excellent article by Bhikkhu Bodhi that should provide some insight. http://www.buddhistinformation.com/going_for_refuge_taking_the_prec.ht m You can read a summary of this article in my Class Notes, starting on page 90 (can be downloaded from the files section of DSG). Metta, Rob M :-) 33358 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 010 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There a number of classification of citta. There are root conditions that support citta. The root support the whole tree while in the absence of it, the tree will not live. There are 6 hetus or 6 roots that support citta. According to whether there is hetu or not, citta is classified as ahetuka citta and sahetuka citta. Ahetuka means without hetu or without root. Hetus or roots are lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, alobha or non- attachment, adosa or metta or non-aversion, and amoha or panna or pannindriya. There are 18 ahetuka cittas and 71 sahetuka cittas. Sahetuka means 'with hetu or with root'. 18 ahetuka cittas and 71 sahetuka cittas make a total of 89 cittas. Among sahetuka cittas, there are 2 ekahetuka cittas, 22 dvihetuka cittas, and 47 tihetuka cittas altogether 71 sahetuka cittas. Eka means 'one'. So ekahetuka means 'single-rooted'. Dvi means 'two or double or twice'. Dvihetuka means 'double-rooted'. Ti means 'three'. Tihetuka means 'triple-rooted'. There cittas will again be explained in the following messages. Even though citta is just awareness of its own object, depending on its associated cetasikas and their implication, there have been many classifications of citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33359 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My > understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of > just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in > each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, > and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised > that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing > the Teachings. Here is what Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda has to say about dreams in "What Buddhists Belive" Dreams and Their Significance 'Life is nothing but a dream'. One of man's greatest unsolved problems is the mystery of dreams. From the very earliest of times man has tried to analyze dreams and has tried to explain them in prophetic and psychological terms, but while there has been some measure of success recently, we are probably no nearer the answers to the baffling question: 'What is a dream?' The great English Romantic poet William Wordsworth had a startling concept: that this life we live is merely a dream and that we will 'awake' to the 'real' reality when we die, when our 'dream' ends. 'Our birth is but a sleep and forgetting: The Soul, that rises with us, our life's star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar.' A similar concept is expressed in a charming old Buddhist tale which tells of a deva who was playing with some other devas. Being tired, he lay down to take a short nap and passed away. He was reborn as a girl on earth. There she got married, had a few children and lived to be very old. After her death again she was born as a deva amongst the same companions who had just finished playing their game. (This story also illustrates the world is very different from time in another plane of existence). What has Buddhism to say about dreams? Just as in every other culture, Buddhism has had its fair share of people who claimed to be skilled in interpreting dreams. Such people earn a lot of money exploiting the ignorance of men and women who believe that every dream has a spiritual or prophetic significance. According to Buddhist psychology dreams are ideational processes which occur as activities of the mind. In considering the occurrence of dreams it is relevant to remember that the process of sleeping can be regarded as falling into five stages. 1. drowsiness, 2. light slumber, 3. deep slumber, 4. light slumber and 5. awakening. The significance and the cause of dreams were the subject of discussion in the famous book 'Milinda Panha' or 'The Questions of King Milinda', in which Ven. Nagasena has stated that there are six causes of dreams, three of them being organic, wind, bile and phlegm. The fourth is due to the intervention of supernatural forces, fifth, revival of past experience and sixth, the influence of future events. It is categorically stated that dreams occur only in light slumber which is said to be like the sleep of the monkey. Of the six causes given Ven. Nagasena has stated positively that the last, namely prophetic dreams are the only important ones and the others are relatively insignificant. Dreams are mind-created phenomena and they are activities of the mind. All human beings dream, although some people cannot remember. Buddhism teaches that some dreams have psychological significance. The six causes mentioned earlier can also be classified in the following manner: I. Every single thought that is created is stored in our subconscious mind and some of them strongly influence the mind according to our anxieties. When we sleep, some of these thoughts are activated and appear to us as 'pictures' moving before us. This happens because during sleep, the five senses which constitute our contact with the outside world, are temporarily arrested. The subconscious mind then is free to become dominant and to 're-play' thoughts that are stored. These dreams may be of value to psychiatry but cannot be classified as prophetic. They are merely the reflections of the mind at rest. II. The second type of dream also has no significance. These are caused by internal and external provocations which set off a train of 'visual thoughts' which are 'seen' by the mind at rest. Internal factors are those which disturb the body (e.g. a heavy meal which does not allow one to have a restful slumber or imbalance and friction between elements that constitute the body). External provocation is when the mind is disturbed (although the sleeper may be unaware of it) by natural phenomena like the weather, wind, cold, rain, leaves rustling, windows rattling etc. The subconscious mind reacts to these disturbances and creates pictures to 'explain' them away. The mind accommodates the irritation in a seemingly rational way so that the dreamer can continue to sleep undisturbed. These dreams too have no importance and need no interpretation. III. Then there are prophetic dreams. These are important. They are seldom experienced and only when there is an impending event which is of great relevance to the dreamer. Buddhism teaches that besides the tangible world we can experience, there are devas who exist on another plane or some spirits who are bound to this earth and are invisible to us. They could be our relatives or friends who have passed away and who have been reborn. They maintain their former mental relationships and attachments to us. When Buddhists transfer merits to devas and departed ones, they remember them and invite them to share the happiness accrued in the merit. Thus they develop a mental relationship with their departed ones. The devas in turn are pleased and they keep a watch over us and indicate something in dreams when we are facing certain big problems and they try to protect us from harm. So, when there is something important that is going to happen in our lives they activate certain mental energies in our minds which are seen as dreams. These dreams can warn of impending danger or even prepare us for sudden over-whelming good news. These messages are given in symbolic terms (much like the negatives of photographs) and have to be interpreted skillfully and with intelligence. Unfortunately too many people confuses the first two kinds of dreams with these and end up wasting valuable time and money consulting fake mediums and dream-interpreters. The Buddha was aware that this could be exploited for personal gain and He therefore warned the monks against practising soothsaying, astrology and interpreting dreams in the name of Buddhism. IV. Finally, our mind is the depository of all kammic energies accumulated in the past. Sometimes, when a kamma is about to ripen (that is, when the action we did in a previous life or early part of our life, is going to experience its reaction) the mind which is at rest during sleep can trigger off a 'picture' of what is going to happen. Again the impending action has to be of great importance and must be so strongly charged that the mind 'releases' the extra energy in the form of a vivid dream. Such dreams occur only very rarely and only to certain people with a special kind of mental make up. The sign of the effect of certain kammas also appears in our minds at the last moment when we are going to depart from this world. Dreams can occur when two living human beings send strong mental telepathic messages to each other. When one person has an intense desire to communicate with another, he concentrates strongly on the message and the person with whom he wishes to communicate. When the mind is at rest, it is in an ideal state to receive these messages which are seen as dreams. Usually these dreams only appear in one intense moment because the human mind is not strong enough to sustain such messages over a long period of time. All worldlings are dreamers, and they see as permanent, what is essentially impermanent. They do not see that youth ends in old age, beauty in ugliness, health in sickness, and life itself in death. In this dream-world, what is truly without substance is seen as reality. Dreaming during sleep is but another dimension of the dream-world. The only ones who are awake are the Buddhas and Arahats as they have seen reality. Buddhas and Arahants never dream. The first three kinds of dream cannot occur in their minds, because their minds have been permanently 'stilled' and cannot be activated to dream. The last kind of dream cannot happen to them because they have eradicated all their craving energy completely, and there is no 'residual' energy of anxiety or unsatisfied desire to activate the mind to produce dreams. The Buddha is also known as the Awakened One because His way of relaxing the physical body is not the way we sleep which results in dreams. Great artists and thinkers, like the German Goethe, have often said they get some of their best inspiration through dreams. This could be because when their minds are cut off from the five senses during sleep, they produce clear thoughts which are creative in the highest degree. Wordsworth meant the same thing when he said that good poetry results from 'powerful emotions recollected in tranquillity'. Metta, Rob M :-) 33360 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I was thinking about citta being one moment of consciousness. My > understanding of the Teachings is that the whole world consists of > just those realities that are experienced through the sense doors in > each brief moment of citta - that there is no future lying waiting, > and no past stored up anywhere - only the present cittas. I realised > that something has been bothering me about this ever since hearing > the Teachings. Here is what Dr. K. Sri. Dhammananda has to say about dreams in "What Buddhists Belive" Dreams and Their Significance 'Life is nothing but a dream'. One of man's greatest unsolved problems is the mystery of dreams. From the very earliest of times man has tried to analyze dreams and has tried to explain them in prophetic and psychological terms, but while there has been some measure of success recently, we are probably no nearer the answers to the baffling question: 'What is a dream?' The great English Romantic poet William Wordsworth had a startling concept: that this life we live is merely a dream and that we will 'awake' to the 'real' reality when we die, when our 'dream' ends. 'Our birth is but a sleep and forgetting: The Soul, that rises with us, our life's star, Hath had elsewhere its setting, And cometh from afar.' A similar concept is expressed in a charming old Buddhist tale which tells of a deva who was playing with some other devas. Being tired, he lay down to take a short nap and passed away. He was reborn as a girl on earth. There she got married, had a few children and lived to be very old. After her death again she was born as a deva amongst the same companions who had just finished playing their game. (This story also illustrates the world is very different from time in another plane of existence). What has Buddhism to say about dreams? Just as in every other culture, Buddhism has had its fair share of people who claimed to be skilled in interpreting dreams. Such people earn a lot of money exploiting the ignorance of men and women who believe that every dream has a spiritual or prophetic significance. According to Buddhist psychology dreams are ideational processes which occur as activities of the mind. In considering the occurrence of dreams it is relevant to remember that the process of sleeping can be regarded as falling into five stages. 1. drowsiness, 2. light slumber, 3. deep slumber, 4. light slumber and 5. awakening. The significance and the cause of dreams were the subject of discussion in the famous book 'Milinda Panha' or 'The Questions of King Milinda', in which Ven. Nagasena has stated that there are six causes of dreams, three of them being organic, wind, bile and phlegm. The fourth is due to the intervention of supernatural forces, fifth, revival of past experience and sixth, the influence of future events. It is categorically stated that dreams occur only in light slumber which is said to be like the sleep of the monkey. Of the six causes given Ven. Nagasena has stated positively that the last, namely prophetic dreams are the only important ones and the others are relatively insignificant. Dreams are mind-created phenomena and they are activities of the mind. All human beings dream, although some people cannot remember. Buddhism teaches that some dreams have psychological significance. The six causes mentioned earlier can also be classified in the following manner: I. Every single thought that is created is stored in our subconscious mind and some of them strongly influence the mind according to our anxieties. When we sleep, some of these thoughts are activated and appear to us as 'pictures' moving before us. This happens because during sleep, the five senses which constitute our contact with the outside world, are temporarily arrested. The subconscious mind then is free to become dominant and to 're-play' thoughts that are stored. These dreams may be of value to psychiatry but cannot be classified as prophetic. They are merely the reflections of the mind at rest. II. The second type of dream also has no significance. These are caused by internal and external provocations which set off a train of 'visual thoughts' which are 'seen' by the mind at rest. Internal factors are those which disturb the body (e.g. a heavy meal which does not allow one to have a restful slumber or imbalance and friction between elements that constitute the body). External provocation is when the mind is disturbed (although the sleeper may be unaware of it) by natural phenomena like the weather, wind, cold, rain, leaves rustling, windows rattling etc. The subconscious mind reacts to these disturbances and creates pictures to 'explain' them away. The mind accommodates the irritation in a seemingly rational way so that the dreamer can continue to sleep undisturbed. These dreams too have no importance and need no interpretation. III. Then there are prophetic dreams. These are important. They are seldom experienced and only when there is an impending event which is of great relevance to the dreamer. Buddhism teaches that besides the tangible world we can experience, there are devas who exist on another plane or some spirits who are bound to this earth and are invisible to us. They could be our relatives or friends who have passed away and who have been reborn. They maintain their former mental relationships and attachments to us. When Buddhists transfer merits to devas and departed ones, they remember them and invite them to share the happiness accrued in the merit. Thus they develop a mental relationship with their departed ones. The devas in turn are pleased and they keep a watch over us and indicate something in dreams when we are facing certain big problems and they try to protect us from harm. So, when there is something important that is going to happen in our lives they activate certain mental energies in our minds which are seen as dreams. These dreams can warn of impending danger or even prepare us for sudden over-whelming good news. These messages are given in symbolic terms (much like the negatives of photographs) and have to be interpreted skillfully and with intelligence. Unfortunately too many people confuses the first two kinds of dreams with these and end up wasting valuable time and money consulting fake mediums and dream-interpreters. The Buddha was aware that this could be exploited for personal gain and He therefore warned the monks against practising soothsaying, astrology and interpreting dreams in the name of Buddhism. IV. Finally, our mind is the depository of all kammic energies accumulated in the past. Sometimes, when a kamma is about to ripen (that is, when the action we did in a previous life or early part of our life, is going to experience its reaction) the mind which is at rest during sleep can trigger off a 'picture' of what is going to happen. Again the impending action has to be of great importance and must be so strongly charged that the mind 'releases' the extra energy in the form of a vivid dream. Such dreams occur only very rarely and only to certain people with a special kind of mental make up. The sign of the effect of certain kammas also appears in our minds at the last moment when we are going to depart from this world. Dreams can occur when two living human beings send strong mental telepathic messages to each other. When one person has an intense desire to communicate with another, he concentrates strongly on the message and the person with whom he wishes to communicate. When the mind is at rest, it is in an ideal state to receive these messages which are seen as dreams. Usually these dreams only appear in one intense moment because the human mind is not strong enough to sustain such messages over a long period of time. All worldlings are dreamers, and they see as permanent, what is essentially impermanent. They do not see that youth ends in old age, beauty in ugliness, health in sickness, and life itself in death. In this dream-world, what is truly without substance is seen as reality. Dreaming during sleep is but another dimension of the dream-world. The only ones who are awake are the Buddhas and Arahats as they have seen reality. Buddhas and Arahants never dream. The first three kinds of dream cannot occur in their minds, because their minds have been permanently 'stilled' and cannot be activated to dream. The last kind of dream cannot happen to them because they have eradicated all their craving energy completely, and there is no 'residual' energy of anxiety or unsatisfied desire to activate the mind to produce dreams. The Buddha is also known as the Awakened One because His way of relaxing the physical body is not the way we sleep which results in dreams. Great artists and thinkers, like the German Goethe, have often said they get some of their best inspiration through dreams. This could be because when their minds are cut off from the five senses during sleep, they produce clear thoughts which are creative in the highest degree. Wordsworth meant the same thing when he said that good poetry results from 'powerful emotions recollected in tranquillity'. Metta, Rob M :-) 33361 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 In a message dated 5/26/04 5:41:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: Just a brief comment on the foregoing. I understand that the primary thrust of what you write here is the point that dukkha is not to be ended by refusing to see, and I agree with that. The Dhamma is reality oriented, and clear awareness is a priority. It, developed into wisdom, is the razor-sharp diamond cutter that slices through delusion. That said, I'd like to add a couple disclaimers. One of these is that at times, and we each will have to determine for ourself when it is such a time, one may be in such a state that it is the better part of valor to "look" just briefly, and to then set aside the deeper looking until one is a bit less vulnerable. These times are normally rare, and we shouldn't be "too easy" on ourselves, but commom sense should prevail. A second disclaimer is that cultivation of a mental inclination to lovingkindness, compassion, rejoicing in the welfare of others, and equanimity is a praiseworthy practice, particularly if these inclinations don't seem to come to one as easily as one would wish. So long as the motives for such cultivation seem to be largely wholesome, and not solely as a "quick fix" for distress, this is a laudable practice highly recommended by the Buddha. The third disclaimer is that "shielding oneself from aversion" in the form of hiding from oneself mental (and other) events we'd rather not see should not be confused with guarding the senses. Guarding the senses, by which I understand the mindful attention to feelings with an eye to short-circuiting the further development of tanha and upadana, and, if one hasn't been sharp enough, to short-circuiting the process as soon thereafter as possible, is a worthwhile practice repeatedly recommended by the Buddha. In fact, with regard to dealing with very, very serious unwholesome reactions, there were circumstances in which the Buddha said that as a last resort, one should even rely on a teeth-gritting act of suppression. The Buddha's practice was not entirely a passive one, and he did not prescribe exactly the same medicine to all patients under all conditions. It varied according to person and circumstance. ======= Howard and all, I would add that practice with the Brahma Viharas and other samatha techniques work on weakening the defilements thus helping us face reality. Here is a slightly different twist. Interestingly, the Visud. suggests doing metta meditation at times during stressful situations. I think one example used was the stress caused by the various meditation objects associated with dead bodies. The metta meditation protects one, reduces the fearfulness, so you can then do the death meditations. jack 33362 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:01am Subject: Meditation (was Re: I have a wonderful wife) Hi Rob M and all, I would not say that meditation may be a complete waste of time for those who speak out against meditation. I would say that some people may have hard time meditating. I believe that it is not an uncommon experience for most people who start meditation: One may feel very agitated. It is simply difficult to sit still, eyes closed, with thoughts and images coming and going in mind, with hurting ankles an knees. Sitting through five, ten or twenty minutes, one may need to endure not only physical pain but also mental agitation. It simply may not be easy. So in short, meditation is not a waste of time, but it may be difficult. For those who find it difficult, they would need more determination and perseverance in meditation. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, [snip] > > Each of should experiment to determine the best approach for > ourselves. When members of DSG speak out against meditation, I cannot > argue with them. Because of their accumulations, meditation may be a > complete waste of their time. There are many cases in the Suttas > where people become enlightened without any meditation in that > existence. > > The question of "is meditation the right path" should be unasked. > This question presupposes that there is a "right path" for all people. > [snip] > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33363 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was Re: I have a wonderful wife) In a message dated 5/26/04 8:05:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: So in short, meditation is not a waste of time, but it may be difficult. For those who find it difficult, they would need more determination and perseverance in meditation. ===== Or/and they need to change their idea of meditation. Many people look upon agitation, etc., (5 Hindrances) as something that interrupts their meditation instead of a useful object of meditation. jack jack 33364 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 011 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are still more classifications of citta. Citta always takes an object. No citta can exist without any object. Objects are called arammana in Pali. Arammana are where citta visits. These objects or arammanas are ruparammana or sight which is colour, saddarammana or sound, gandharammana or smell, rasarammana or taste, photthabbarammana or touch-sense, and dhammarammana or mind-object. Ruparammana comprises'rupa' and 'arammana'. Rupa here means visual object or sight and it is colour. Saddarammana is composed of 'sadda' and 'arammana'. Sadda means sound. So it is sound-object. Gandha means smell and rasa means taste and photthabba means touch-sense. In touch senses there are three realities which can be aware of through body. These touch senses are pathavi, tejo, and vayo. Pathavi is the sense of softness-hardness/ tenderness-roughness. Tejo is the sense of warmness-coldness. And vayo is the sense of pushing- pulling/ compression-repression/ resilience etc etc. Dhammarammana or mind-object will be discussed in the coming posts. These six senses or six objects are experienced through one of 6 sense doors or dvara. Depending on dvara, citta can be classified as 1. 36 ekadvarika cittas 2. 3 pancadvarika cittas 3. 31 chadvarika cittas 4. 10 chadvarika-non-chadvarika cittas 5. 9 advarika cittas Eka means 'one'. Dvarika means 'door-related'. Ekadvarika means 'arising at a single door.' Panca means 'five'. Pancadvarika means ' arising at one of five sense doors.' Cha means 'six'. Chadvarika means 'arising at one of six sense doors. Chadvarika-non-chadvarika means 'arising at one of six sense doors or arising not at any door.' Advarika means doorless or 'arising not at any door. So there will be 36 + 3 + 31 + 10 + 9 = 89 cittas in total. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33365 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:43am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4 Lodewijk asked Acharn Sujin how we can know the latent tendencies that are accumulated in each citta from moment to moment. She answered that when they condition akusala citta we know that there are latent tendencies. Each time akusala citta arises and falls away akusala is added to the latent tendencies. Through the development of satipaììhåna they are gradually weakened, but they can only be eradicated by lokuttara citta. We have heard many times that there are three levels of understanding: understanding stemming from listening and reading, pariyatti, understanding that is developed through awareness of nåma and rúpa, paìipatti or practice, understanding of the level of the direct realization of the truth, pativedha. Sarah said that while we are reading texts we may become absorbed in them without any awareness of nåma and rúpa. Realities, nåma and rúpa, appear all the time, but mostly we are only thinking about them. We were reminded time and again by Acharn Sujin that we should know that there is dhamma at this moment, a reality with its own characteristic. If we have merely theoretical knowledge, we know only the names of realities. One of our friends asked how we should study Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that listening and considering are conditions for the understanding of the Dhamma. He wondered whether there are other conditions for the development of right understanding apart from listening. Can one do something else about it? Acharn Sujin explained that each moment is conditioned and that wishing to do something specific in order to have more moments of satipatthåna is only thinking, a nåma that is conditioned. Listening helps to understand conditions for each moment that arises. We read in the Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, § 2, ³On hearing Dhamma²): Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What five? He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these are the five advantages from hearing Dhamma. As we read in the text, he purges things heard. The Thai translation has: he clearly understands what he has heard. This means that we should not listen passively, but investigate what we hear, consider it again and again so that we gain more understanding of the Dhamma. So long as we have not attained enlightenment doubt about nåma and rúpa is bound to arise, but right understanding can eliminate doubt. We read that he makes straight his view. We have wrong view of realities, we believe that they last and we take them for self. By listening and considering paññå can grow so that there is less wrong view, our view can be straightened. We read that his heart becomes calm. The Thai translation has: the citta of the person who listens will have confidence. When there is more understanding of the Dhamma, confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha will grow. **** Nina. 33366 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/26/04 1:46:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > One of our friends asked how we should study Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that > listening and considering are conditions for the understanding of the > Dhamma. He wondered whether there are other conditions for the development > of right understanding apart from listening. Can one do something else about > it? Acharn Sujin explained that each moment is conditioned and that wishing > to do something specific in order to have more moments of satipatthåna is > only thinking, a nåma that is conditioned. Listening helps to understand > conditions for each moment that arises. > ==================== What about wishing to listen and consider? Is that not specific? If that can occur, why not wishing to maintain mindful awareness, or wishing to maintain concentration on a meditation subject for the purpose of samatha bhavana? (And by "wishing" I don't mean idle desire, but volitionally directing attention.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33367 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:34pm Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams Hello Victor, all, This is a strange and interesting sutta. It was a comfort to read the sutta and detect a far echo of whatever mechanisms bring my murky and rather pointless feelings and dreams to the surface. Thank you. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > I thought you might find this interesting: > Anguttara Nikaya V.196 > Supina Sutta > Dreams > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-196.html > > Some people do have intuition and vision about the future. > > Metta, > Victor 33368 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hello Howard, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: "But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of momentariness (or, better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is the core of the Dhamma as I see it." I appreciate your post Howard - and think it is the answer in many cases of 'psychic' predictions. I just can't make it fit around my having a dream in advance of receiving any actual information whatsoever about a place,people or event. The dream came months before I'd even heard of the place, seen the building, considered applying for work in that sector, or any conditions existed for the vacancy to occur. As with the feelings in advance of any event affecting loved ones - I also can't make it fit with some 'unconscious' collating of available information. Often I haven't seen the person for months, and have scanty knowledge of their current relationships or daily life. In your example of typing the letter, or taking a step, there is an unbroken chain of events and a known intention. Not so, in my examples. Conditionality is: "When this exists, that comes to be;" "With the arising of this, that arises." "When this does not exist, that does not come to be;" "With the cessation of this, that ceases." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 33369 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:38pm Subject: Re: Feelings and Dreams Hello RobM, all, It was good to read Ven. Dhammananda's article. I'm glad to know Buddhism recognises prophetic dreams, though my dreams and feelings seem rather pointless and hardly fit such a grand description - the feelings are certainly of no help in warning anyone ('I've got a vague strong feeling that something bad (I don't know what) is going to happen to you soon ('I don't know when')). And the dreams seem to be of quite pedestrian snippets of future daily life. I'm not sure how I feel with the explanation that devas are beings able to alter our mindstates by activating mental energies and inserting symbollic images into dreams. Do you believe that? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 33370 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/26/04 3:41:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > "But, bottom-line, I think this is just an instance of causes and > conditions, and it doesn't violate in any way the idea of > momentariness (or, > better, of what is current being what is actual). Conditionality is > the core of > the Dhamma as I see it." > > I appreciate your post Howard - and think it is the answer in many > cases of 'psychic' predictions. I just can't make it fit around my > having a dream in advance of receiving any actual information > whatsoever about a place,people or event. The dream came months > before I'd even heard of the place, seen the building, considered > applying for work in that sector, or any conditions existed for the > vacancy to occur. As with the feelings in advance of any event > affecting loved ones - I also can't make it fit with > some 'unconscious' collating of available information. Often I > haven't seen the person for months, and have scanty knowledge of > their current relationships or daily life. In your example of typing > the letter, or taking a step, there is an unbroken chain of events > and a known intention. Not so, in my examples. > > Conditionality is: > "When this exists, that comes to be;" > "With the arising of this, that arises." > "When this does not exist, that does not come to be;" > "With the cessation of this, that ceases." > > metta and peace, > Christine ======================= I didn't mean to imply by my "answer" that no special abilities are involved. I do, indeed, think, they are - specifically, picking up by "psychic means" on current conditions that determine, or at least make probable, a future event. But I don't think that such precognition is possible until a sufficient body of preconditions is in place. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33371 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed May 26, 2004 2:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hello Howard,and all, I don't regard the occasional dreams and feelings as any special ability - but rather as a mild and frustrating affliction over which there is no control and for which there seems to be no real purpose. I have experienced these precognitions, without identifiable preconditions - even if they are only about pointless daily tasks and people I have yet to meet ... so ... you see my problem with fitting these types of dreams and feelings that occasionally occur into what the teachings say about nama and rupa, and no set future. It creates this niggling doubt. Maybe I'll put it into the 'too hard basket'? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I didn't mean to imply by my "answer" that no special abilities are > involved. I do, indeed, think, they are - specifically, picking up by "psychic > means" on current conditions that determine, or at least make probable, a > future event. But I don't think that such precognition is possible until a > sufficient body of preconditions is in place. > > With metta, > Howard >33372 From: Philip Date: Wed May 26, 2004 4:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 2 Hi Howard, and all. Thanks for these disclaimers Howard. Very interesting and helpful. H: > disclaimers. > One of these is that at times, and we each will have to determine for > ourself when it is such a time, one may be in such a state that it is the > better part of valor to "look" just briefly, and to then set aside the deeper > looking until one is a bit less vulnerable. These times are normally rare, and we > shouldn't be "too easy" on ourselves, but commom sense should prevail. Ph: Middle way, right. There is a phrase in Japanese that I have not yet been able to find a proper English translation for. "Yo-yuu aru" - literally having space or room, or used about money for being able to afford something, but it's also used to refer to emotional space, being able to afford, in a sense, to develop a wholesome state of mind. So when people are selfish or cold towards other, we might say they do not have "yo-yuu" to be more compassionate, they don't have "room" to afford to be a caring person. So as you say we should be sensitive to how vulnerable we are, and how much "room" we have to deal with dukhha head on. This needn't be done consciously, of course, just aanother subtle aspect of the ever- so-subtle middle way. >A second disclaimer is that cultivation of a mental inclination to > lovingkindness, compassion, rejoicing in the welfare of others, and equanimity is > a praiseworthy practice, particularly if these inclinations don't seem to > come to one as easily as one would wish. So long as the motives for such > cultivation seem to be largely wholesome, and not solely as a "quick fix" for > distress, this is a laudable practice highly recommended by the Buddha. Ph: Absolutely. Becoming aware of how I was practicing Metta in an unskillful or "wrong" way will help me to understand it better. Right understanding of Brahma-Viharas means right understanding of the essence of the Buddha's mind in daily life and interaction with others, I think. I continue to contemplate the Brahma-Viharas every morning and belong to another Yahoo group devoted exclusively to the BVs. >The third disclaimer is that "shielding oneself from aversion" in the > form of hiding from oneself mental (and other) events we'd rather not see > should not be confused with guarding the senses. Guarding the senses, by which I > understand the mindful attention to feelings with an eye to short- circuiting > the further development of tanha and upadana, and, if one hasn't been sharp > enough, to short-circuiting the process as soon thereafter as possible, is a > worthwhile practice repeatedly recommended by the Buddha. In fact, with regard to > dealing with very, very serious unwholesome reactions, there were circumstances > in which the Buddha said that as a last resort, one should even rely on a > teeth-gritting act of suppression. The Buddha's practice was not entirely a > passive one, and he did not prescribe exactly the same medicine to all patients > under all conditions. It varied according to person and circumstance. Ph: This is also a very helpful reminder. I posted the other day about things related to sensual ie sexual lust and since then have been further considering my reactions. I said that not glancing was a form of consideration for the feelings of the other, but realized afterwards that there is indeed a guarding of the senses involved. Yes, of course, I can take in a woman wearing a mini-skirt and leather boots, and perhaps see the flesh of her thighs as mere rupa, and the leather as mere rupa, but there is such a high possibility of grossly unwholesome considerations that it seems wiser to avert the eyes, as long as it's not in an obvious and unnatural way. If it sounds prudish, so be it - there is no hostility or contempt towards the person involved. When my understanding of paramattha dhammas has deepened, when I look I will look and see rupa and not enticing thigh. (Hopefully I will not make the error of reaching out with interest to examine hardness, temperature etc through body sense!) So while I expect will continue quite often to shield myself from deepening grossly unwholesome attachment, shielding myself from aversion is not something I want to do except in the rare cases when I know I don't have enough of that "room" mentionned earlier. Thanks again for those helpful disclaimers. Metta, Phil 33373 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 0:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Feelings and Dreams Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/26/04 5:58:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello Howard,and all, > > I don't regard the occasional dreams and feelings as any special > ability - but rather as a mild and frustrating affliction over which > there is no control and for which there seems to be no real > purpose. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yet not everybody does this. In that sense it is a special ability. As to control, who knows whether some control couldn't be cultivated. ---------------------------------------- I have experienced these precognitions, without > > identifiable preconditions - even if they are only about pointless > daily tasks and people I have yet to meet ... so ... you see my > problem with fitting these types of dreams and feelings that > occasionally occur into what the teachings say about nama and rupa, > and no set future. It creates this niggling doubt. Maybe I'll put it > into the 'too hard basket'? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't make myself clear about preconditions. What I meant was that I suspect that a possible future event comes closer and closer to being a determined actuality as more and more of the conditions necessary for its occurrence arise [I'm speaking here of causal conditioning of a future event, not the foretelling of it], and only after that future event is fully determined, or sufficiently determined as to make it probable, would it then be possible for someone so inclined to be able to foresee it. Moreover, what I'm hypothesizing would be going on is that when a possible event is sufficiently determined, a "sensitive" is able to detect, most frequently without conscious awareness, the already-in-place body of preconditions for the event and, through a complex mechanism, to subconsciously infer the event from that body of conditions. (I see the entire mental process as being largely subliminal.) The more fully the event is determined, the clearer and more reliable would be the precognition. The truly psychic element, as I see it, lies in the ability to detect what is already in place when it is not readily observable by standard means. Why a person would pick up on preconditions for event A but not for event B might be determined, I suppose, by kammic inclination and associations. This, of course, is all just hypothesis on my part. Just words floated into cyberspace. ----------------------------------------------- > > metta and peace, > Christine ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 33374 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Meditation (was Re: I have a wonderful wife) Hi Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > I would not say that meditation may be a complete waste of time for > those who speak out against meditation. I agree with you. Even for the most ardent anti-meditator, meditation can be beneficial. Thanks for the correction. Metta, Rob M :-) 33375 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Devas (was Feelings and Dreams) Hi Christine and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I'm not sure how I feel with the explanation that devas are beings > able to alter our mindstates by activating mental energies and > inserting symbollic images into dreams. Do you believe that? I would be interested in yours and other's opinions on this question. Let's split this question into sections: Do I believe in devas? I can't reply with a definite "YES!" because I haven't yet come up with a persuasive argument to convince myself. I have no objections to the concept of devas and I would like to come up with a logical basis for this belief. Does anybody have any suggestions? Do I believe that devas can sense our mind? Assuming devas exist, I figure that they are generally wrapped up in their own lives as we are in our lives. I figure that they spend as much time thinking about us as we do thinking about them (i.e. almost none). However, when somebody is sharing merit with a specific deva (a lost relative), I see this as analgous to "calling their name" which would make them suddenly pay attention. Once they are paying attention to us, I believe that they can sense our state of mind. When a Buddha exists or somebody (or even better a group of people) are radiating metta, I figure that this is like a magnet that attracts devas. I figure that they come to "sunbathe in the warmth of our thoughts". Do I believe that devas can influence our thoughts? When we are awake, our thoughts are conditioned by the strong impact of nama, rupa and concepts according to natural decisive support. When we are almost asleep, there are fewer strong conditions to condition thoughts and this presents an opportunity for weaker conditions to condition the arising of thoughts. I figure that on rare occasions, a deva (assuming that they exisit), could influence our thoughts. I would be interested in yours and other's opinions. Metta, Rob M :-) 33376 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:37pm Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Rob Ep (& Howard), > > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > > > thank you for making this point so succinctly. you seem clearer than > > me these days, Howard. I'll have to go on a meditation retreat. : ) > ..... > ....Or hang around more regularly on DSG like Howard does :-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > > ha ha, that's probably the solution! : ) best, robert ep. _______________________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com.hk address at http://mail.english.yahoo.com.hk 33377 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed May 26, 2004 8:46pm Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > You wrote: > ---------------- > V: > Ken, where can I learn more about the factors of pariyatti? > Could you provide some reference about factors of pariyatti in the > Pali Canon? > > In SN 55.5*, the Buddha spoke about the factors for stream-entry. > They are: > 1. Association with superior persons > 2. Hearing the true Dhamma > 3. Careful attention [yonisomanasikara] > 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma > > When you say the factors of pariyatti, do you mean the factors for > stream-entry? > -------------------- > > Yes, I do. As I understand it, Stream-entry is a form of pativedha > (penetration of the true Dhamma). The four factors for pativedha > are those you have listed above. They include pariyati > (intellectual understanding) which is attained by 1, 2, and 3, and > patipatti, which is 4. > > So, I have called 1, 2 and 3, "factors of pariyatti." I hope that > is acceptable terminology. I suppose "factors for patipatti" would > have been correct, too. > > Do you agree that 1, 2 and 3 lead to 4? > > While we're on the subject; do you agree that number 4, practice in > accordance with the Dhamma, means satipatthana? And do you agree > that satipatthana means directly knowing conditioned reality to be > nothing more than the various conditioned namas and rupas? All of > which have the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta? > > I suppose, for a Once-returner, `practice in accordance with the > Dhamma' (patipatti) would include both satipatthana and Path > Consciousness (pativedha) at the level of Stream-entry. (?) > > Kind regards, > Ken H Hi Ken. It seems to me that satipatthana would not be "practice" but would be the fruit of practice. Of course, there is an inclination in Abhidhamma to remove any definition of practice that involves "someone" "doing something" and so you can only have the spontaneous result, not the doing that leads to it. But then why on earth call it practice? If it is not something that one does, it is not practice at all, but just a happening which one receives. That is not practice, but "grace" by another name. It seems to me that if "practice" is listed as the fourth factor towards enlightenment, this is because practices including meditation were in fact recommended by the Buddha. Do you agree that in any case "practice" as a resultant state without any intervening effort is a rather tortured definition of "practice?" Best, Robert Ep. 33378 From: Date: Wed May 26, 2004 9:41pm Subject: feeling? Hi all, I am sure you all agree that ultimate reality is only found in citta process. Therefore, if we want to discuss dependent arising in terms of ultimate reality we must discuss it in terms of citta process. However, a key turning point in dependent arising is not found in citta process, namely 'dependent on feeling craving arises'. Where is feeling in citta process? How does feeling condition the arising of javana cittas? How does contact condition the arising of feeling in citta process? Larry 33379 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:30pm Subject: Re: feeling? Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > I am sure you all agree that ultimate reality is only found in citta > process. Therefore, if we want to discuss dependent arising in terms of > ultimate reality we must discuss it in terms of citta process. However, > a key turning point in dependent arising is not found in citta process, > namely 'dependent on feeling craving arises'. Where is feeling in citta > process? How does feeling condition the arising of javana cittas? How > does contact condition the arising of feeling in citta process? I disagree that ultimate realities are only found in the citta process. On Monday, I posted the following message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33260 This message goes through a detailed defintion of each of the 12 steps of dependent arising describing each of the steps in terms of ultimate realities. It describes the conditions linking each of the 12 steps using the Patthana. It even gives Vism references! I admit that it was all copied from U Silananda's notes, but I would love to discuss specific aspects of this with you. Metta, Rob M :-) 33380 From: robmoult Date: Wed May 26, 2004 10:48pm Subject: Re: feeling? Hi Larry (again), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > I am sure you all agree that ultimate reality is only found in citta > > process. Therefore, if we want to discuss dependent arising in > terms of > > ultimate reality we must discuss it in terms of citta process. > However, > > a key turning point in dependent arising is not found in citta > process, > > namely 'dependent on feeling craving arises'. Where is feeling in > citta > > process? How does feeling condition the arising of javana cittas? > How > > does contact condition the arising of feeling in citta process? > > I disagree that ultimate realities are only found in the citta > process. On Monday, I posted the following message: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33260 > > This message goes through a detailed defintion of each of the 12 > steps of dependent arising describing each of the steps in terms of > ultimate realities. It describes the conditions linking each of the > 12 steps using the Patthana. It even gives Vism references! > > I admit that it was all copied from U Silananda's notes, but I would > love to discuss specific aspects of this with you. You asked about how contact conditions feeling and how feeling conditions craving. As you can see from the following message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33261 it is natural decisive support (pakatupanissaya) that is the key! Metta, Rob M :-) 33381 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:20am Subject: Re: I have a wonderful wife Hi Rob M and Philip, RM:> > > Practice is the gradual training of Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna > > > Ph: > > Does this progression mean that Samadhi is a necessary precursor - if that's the right word - to Panna? No Panna without Samadhi first? > > ===== KH: I'm confused too, Rob. Samadhi is a universal cetasika, is it not? Why are you talking about sila leading to samadhi leading to panna? Are you referring to samma-samadhi (right concentration)? In that case, it should be made clear that it arises with (and dependent upon) panna, not before. "As to this (right concentration) right understanding comes first." (Mahacattarika-sutta) ------------ Ph to RM: > > I think you place more emphasis on meditation than some people here. ---------------------- KH: It depends on the meaning of meditation. True meditation is a citta, (it lasts one mind-moment); formal meditation is a concept – an idea of meditation. According to that concept, there is an activity called meditation that extends over a period of time. This is the type that Rob places more emphasis upon. --------------------- Ph: > > I appreciate that - I don't understand why meditation is seen as a self-driven activity. > > ---------------------- KH: When formal meditation is spoken of as a self-driven activity, I think that means it is undertaken with the intention of gaining something for one's self. ------------------------ Ph: > Why can't meditation arise in a conditioned way the same way studying or discussing does? > ---------------------- By `conditioned,' I think you mean `not self-driven.' Reading, discussing and considering Dhamma can (sometimes) be done without being self-driven (without wanting to gain something). I'm not sure the same can be said about formal meditation, though. In any case, why would we practice formal meditation as part of our Dhamma practice? The Buddha did not list it as one of the factors for enlightenment. It seems to me that we would be doing so with the intention of simulating one of those factors; namely, `practice in accordance with the Dhamma.' But practice in accordance with the Dhamma is synonymous with insight into the nature of conditioned reality: it doesn't mean sitting on a cushion or concentrating on concepts. Rob M wrote: ----------------------- > Each of us should experiment to determine the best approach for ourselves. When members of DSG speak out against meditation, I cannot argue with them. Because of their accumulations, meditation may be a complete waste of their time. There are many cases in the Suttas where people become enlightened without any meditation in that existence. > -------------- KH: There, the suttas are referring to jhana meditation. That is a totally different kettle of fish: it is not what people on this list mean by formal (non-momentary) meditation. ---------------- RM: > The question of "is meditation the right path" should be unasked. This question presupposes that there is a "right path" for all people. > ---------------- KH: Wouldn't that be a correct supposition? Some suttas refer to four paths, but they are simply differentiating the place of jhana in our practice. That is, whether jhana is developed 1, before vipassana or 2, after vipassana or 3, concurrently with vipassana or 4, not at all. Is there any other Tipitaka reference to more than one right path? Kind regards, Ken H 33382 From: Philip Date: Thu May 27, 2004 0:57am Subject: Choosing and finding time Hello all I'm looking through the Upseful Posts trying to learn about Cetana and came across an interesting message from Jon. (#6737) It was a short message. It follows in full: > --- hhofman@d... wrote: > Dear Nina and Jon, ( no intention > to exclude others I am unaware of) > > > > Thank you sincerely for the time and effort taken to answer the > > question. I often feel that I lack time. There are so many things > > which beg for attention, and the days consist of choosing this, > > rejecting that as objects for further consideration. Jon: > Yes, this is life. But even the 'choosing' is just another moment of > intention conditioned by our previous accumulations (and other factors). > So there is no more control over this moment (ie. to express it in > convventional terms, over 'what we choose') than over the fact that, say, > we like one flavour but not another. Ph: This seems very logical to me. I would add that it doesn't mean we can not feel confident that wholesome changes will come our way, because our wholesome moments condition more of the same, sometimes in quite a predictable way. For example, if during my morning Brahma-Viharas contemplation, consideration of compassion for people driving arises, when I see people driving later in the day, I am far more likely to have a friendly, caring feeling towards them. (If you knew more about the agnry outbursts I've had towards drivers, you'd know why this is a wholesome change!) I don't decide to have that thought during the contemplation, but if it arises a wholesome, conditioned echo of it later in the day can be predicted - not that there is any value in predicting it. My point is that even though we are not able to decide to have wholesome change, wholesome change is ours for the having, and we will have wholesome change if we remain open to the Dhamma in the company of good teachers and friends.I know that the notion of not having control over one's decisions is not warmly welcomed at a general Buddhist forum I've participated in, but in my opinion there is no need to feel discouraged by our inability to have control over decisions, because ultimately right understanding will make wise choices for us. It is a reason for joyful optimism, not existential distress or discouragement. Jon: > Also, at times when we our lives are 'busy' it is an opportunity to see > whether the realities that arise from moment to moment are in truth any > different from the realities that arise at other times, or whether it is > just our perception that this is so. Ph: This is very interesing. Like many people, I have always been attached to my days off and thought they were the time that I could make progress on studying Dhamma, just because I have the opportunity to be at home with my books etc. Indeed, it is during my busy days at work that I am now filling my little notebooks with observations. Am I finding that the same realities arise as when I am having a quiet day at home? That is an interesting question that I will look at when I go back to work tomorrow. The thing I'm still confused about, and the reason I'm looking through the Cetana Useful Posts, is why and how the Buddha uses verbs such as "strive " and "exert oneself" in the sutta on right effort (the 4 exertions). Those verbs sound so intentional. If anyone knows off hand of a thread where that was discussed, please let me know. Thanks. Metta, Phil 33383 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, death is suffering....' Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the refs. re. 4NT in D.O. My main quandry is that it seems to > me if lobha is cause and dukkha is result then dukkha is kamma vipaka, > but Htoo said this wasn't the right way to slice it. Why not? .... S: As you know, there are different kinds of dukkha. Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas regardless of whether they are kusala, akusala, kiriya or vipaka. Lobha is a direct and indirect cause. Lobha is a direct cause of rebirth by way of kamma and other conditions. Birth is then a condition for the arising of subsequent conditioned dhammas, for old age and death etc. Lobha is therefore a direct and indirect cause of these subsequent dhammas. As RobM’s charts show, conditions are very complicated. Without lobha, no further becoming and thereby further dukkha. How’s that? Any more quandry? Metta, Sarah ====== 33384 From: sarahdhhk Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Victor, Apologies for putting my comments to you under the wrong subject thread - I sometimes do this when I'm rushing. I've tried to retrieve the discussion so you can respond as requested (off-list). Metta, Sarah .... S: > *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post 33211), I think we can rightly say that until the attainment of arahantship, `there is always ignorance'. The anusaya (latent tendency)of ignorance lies `dormant' in each citta and is accumulated from citta to citta, even when it doesn't manifest. I also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold path factors being `fabrications' `leading to the cessation of craving,thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications'.] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Howard and all, > > First of all, I would like to correct myself regarding what I said: > > 'As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, > attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until > > "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > done. There is nothing further for this world.'"' > > I want to say that as long as one has not known the Four Noble > Truths, there is always ignorance. In other words, ignorance is not > knowing the Four Noble Truths. > > Craving and clinging are fabrications, specifically, fabrications > conditioned by ignorance. Craving leads to clinging and clinging > give rise to becoming, starting another round of birth, aging, and > death, giving rise to this whole mass of the dukkha. > > However, with the cessation of ignorance, that is, knowing the Four > Noble Truths, one undertakes the Noble Eightfold Path that leads to > the cessation of the dukkha. The Noble Eightfold Path is a > fabricated path, and all eight factors of the Path are also > fabrications. However, they are the fabrications leading to > cessation of craving, thus leading to the cessation of all > fabrications.< 33385 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 27, 2004 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Victor, Thx for persisting on this. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > So are you saying that there is no contradiction between what the > Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated in > Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha? .... S: What I was saying is that you can’t pick out a few words out of context and make sweeping statements. The teachings are far too subtle and profound for that. One needs to read them carefully in context, preferably with the help of commentaries and even sub-commentaries and wise friends. I tried to give some of this context. That’s all. .... > Is birth dukkha or not? .... As you know there are different meanings of dukkha. Sankhara-dukkha is the characteristic of all sankhara dhammas because ‘they are oppressed by rise and fall’. So, even the first namas and rupas of life are inherently dukkha. Here, (Vism XV1, 34f) birth refers to ‘the first manifestation of any aggregates.......called ‘birth’.....It’s characteristic is the first genesis in any [sphere] of becoming. Its function is to consign [to a sphere of becoming]. It is manifested as an emerging here from a past becoming; or it is manifested as the variedness of suffering. ‘But why is it suffering? Because it is the basis for many kinds of suffering...’ S: We cannot say that it is all these ‘many kinds of suffering’, but without birth, the intrinsic suffering (dukkha dukkha), suffering in change (viparinmana dukkha) and suffering due to formations (sa’nkhaara dukkha) and so on as manifesting in subsequent dhammas would not appear. So it is the basis for all suffering only. n8 in the Vism gives the following from the Tiika (Pm): ‘ ‘Because it is the basis for many kinds of suffering’, etc, shows that this birth is not called suffering because of having suffering as its individual essence - for there is no rebirth-linking associated with painful feeling - but rather because it is the foundation for suffering’ (Pm 528).’ Victor, your question is a good one. I can only say that I take birth here as the ‘the first manifestation etc...’. More qus I know. I’ve also found some difference in the two translations, but don’t have access or knowledge of the Pali to check further. Nina or others may help further with the texts if this doesn't satisfy. Metta, Sarah 33386 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 27, 2004 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Victor, (Nina, Howard, Jon in passing) --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Let me add a bit more. > > Jon did not answer the question at all. <...> > Nina did not answer the question either. ... <..> > I asked the questions again, but it is ok with me if she does not > want to respond to it directly and straightforwardly. .... S: Let me try taking a step backwards here .... As I just said the teachings are very profound as I’m sure you’ll agree as well. Sometimes we may think we are answering someone’s questions (I’m sure you have this experience too - perhaps with Howard’s) but the questioner doesn’t think the questions have been answered at all. Personally, I understood the others’ replies and found them helpful(no surprise there, I know). I also tried to give my own elaborations and to check if we were on the same page at all, I asked you a few questions, all of which you ignored. As you say, that is ok. No one ever needs to feel obliged to respond and if they do respond, as you did, it’s one’s option whether to do so ‘directly and straightforwardly’, indirectly, or ignoring the main content of a post as I feel you’ve done with our efforts;-). However we respond or don’t respond, all that is of any real importance are the mind-states and good intentions. If we mind about the others in the sense of having expectations or clinging to a certain kind of response or wishing to have our point accepted, then it isn’t helpful. I’m sure we all do this at times. Sometimes we’re misunderstood or our good intentions are not appreciated as well. I’m sure you find this often. As Nina quoted K.Sujin as saying ‘kusala can be purer when we are not engaged in thinking about what others do or say’. I always find this a helpful reminder, not just with troublesome family members, but in our day to day interactions as well. Not meaning to change the subject or hijack another thread, but I wished to say that I liked your quote to Hans on Kusala Sutta (Skillful), AN 11.19: “Abandon what is unskillful, monks..... <....> “Develop what is skillful, monks..... <.....> A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or developing in terms of the khandhas? Thanks for helping me to consider many points further. Metta, Sarah ===== 33387 From: Sarah Date: Thu May 27, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] (was:Do or not do something) Hi Howard & Jack, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ======================= > What is *inherently* wrong with rising and falling? My answer: > NOTHING! ... S: I don’t think anyone has said there is anything wrong with rising and falling. It’s just the way dhammas are, just as they are anatta too. As Jon wrote (33231 on Dukkha and the 3 characteristics): >The 3 characteristics are characteristics that *pertain to* dhammas. In the course of the development of insight, individual dhammas are gradually known to a higher and higher degree, both as to their particular (unique) characteristic and as to the 3 characteristics they share in common with all conditioned dhammas. This development continues, until, at the attainment of full enlightenment, these characteristics are fully penetrated.< S: In other words, there is no anicca, dukkha and anatta outside of the dhammas to be known by the development of insight. They are characteristics of these dhammas. >But that doesn't mean that phenomena that won't hold still are > worthy of > being grasped at. ... S: Why not? Because of their impermanence they cannot bring or be of any happiness. ... Of course they are not. And attempting to grasp them, > to hold > onto them and not let them go, is to suffer. Sankhata dhamma are > *conditions* > for unhappiness, .... S: Yes, they are conditions for unhappiness and are inherently unsatisfactory too. How else do you understand ‘sabbe sankhara anicca...dukkha....anatta’. Surely this doesn’t mean they are conditions for impermanence, conditions for dukkha and conditions for anatta? .... >but, as you well know, more than one condition is > required for > the arising of a dhamma, and in the case of mental pain, the > impermanence of > dhammas isn't enough to constitute a cause - there must also be craving > or > grasping. ... S: Agreed. But when the texts are referring to the characteristics of all conditioned dhammas, we are not just referring to mental pain. .... >With the end of the three poisons, dukkha ceases, though > dhammas, all > unworthy of being grasped at, continue to rise and fall. ... S: Certainly mental pain (domanassa and dosa) cease. But the dhammas, unworthy of being grasped at (even by others), rise and fall and remain anicca, dukkha and anatta. The characteristics of all conditioned dhammas to be understood don’t change. We agree that when the kilesa (defilements) are eradicated, there is no further mental anguish. I’m not sure why you and Jack interpret the meaning of the universal characteristics as you do. Any suttas to look at? Metta, Sarah ==== 33388 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: Devas (was Feelings and Dreams) Hello RobM, all, My mind would have no difficulty in accepting the existence of devas. One, it is recorded that the Buddha taught Dhamma to them and spoke about them. Two, because all cultures that have existed have some form of other worldly being in their stories, myths and religions. But I don't think the evidence points to the majority of devas having great powers or an interest in assisting human beings. Though there was the deva who lectured 'the smell thief' for his own good ... The Devataasamyutta and the Devaputtasamyutta contain over 120 suttas concerning Devas and many other Samyuttas contain further suttas dealing with Devas, such as the rather unscientific Valaahakasamyutta SN32 Connected Discourses on Cloud Devas who spend their time revelling in their own kind of delight, creating various unusual weather systems. A couple of extracts about devas: Bhikkhu Bodhi in his Introduction to the Samyutta Nikaya says: "Devataa is an abstract noun based on deva, but in the Nikaayas it is invariably used to denote particular celestial beings, just as the English word "deity", originally an abstract noun meaning the divine nature, is normally used to denote the supreme God of theistic religions or an individual god or goddess of polytheistic faiths. Though the word is feminine, the gender comes from the abstract suffix -taa and does not necessarily mean the devataas are female. The texts rarely indicate their sex, though it seems they can be of either sex and perhaps sometimes beyond sexual differentiation. For Buddhism the devas are not immortal gods exercising a creative role in the cosmic process. They are simply elevated beings, blissful and luminous, who had previously dwelt in the human world but had been reborn in the celestial planes as the fruit of their meritorious deeds. With rare exceptions they are just as much in bondage to delusion and desire as human beings, and they equally stand in need of guidance from the Enlightened One. The Buddha is the "teacher of devas and humans" (satthaa devamanussaana.m), and though squarely established in the human world he towers above the most exalted deities by reason of his supreme wisdom and perfect purity." ================= Dr. V. A. Gunasekara in "The Buddhist Attitude to God" speaks of the existence of category of beings called devas. "This term is generally translated as "gods" (with a simple `g' and in the plural). The term deva literally means a shining or radiant being, and describes their physical appearance rather than their supernatural powers (as the translation "gods" seems to imply). To prevent confusion with the notion of a supreme personal God we shall refer to these beings of Buddhist cosmology as devas. Many other religions also postulate the existence of non-human beings who are referred to as `gods' or `angels' if they are considered to be in a better position than humans (with respect to their material conditions of existence). Buddhist cosmology recognises 32 planes of existence some of the higher planes being either states of meditative abstraction or actual domains for the devas. Generally we have direct experience of only two of these 32 planes (those of humans and animals). Planes of existence below these two realms are also said to exist and are characterised by greater degrees of suffering and discomfort. The actual physical location of these planes need not concern us here because the dimensions of the Buddhist universe are even greater than those envisaged by modern astronomy and will contain enough places to accommodate all these planes of existence. We can easily dispose of the devas in the context of the Buddhist attitude to God because the devas are essentially irrelevant to the human situation. Beings are born in the deva-worlds because of particular karmic factors they have accumulated, and after these karmic factors are exhausted they could revert to any of the other planes of existence depending on their unexpended karma. The devas are not particularly endowed with special powers to influence others, and far from saving anyone else they themselves are not "saved". Salvation in Buddhism comes only from full enlightenment, which could be best accomplished from the human plane of existence." http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/bsqtr10.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > > I'm not sure how I feel with the explanation that devas are beings > > able to alter our mindstates by activating mental energies and > > inserting symbollic images into dreams. Do you believe that? > > I would be interested in yours and other's opinions on this question. > Let's split this question into sections: > > Do I believe in devas? > I can't reply with a definite "YES!" because I haven't yet come up > with a persuasive argument to convince myself. I have no objections > to the concept of devas and I would like to come up with a logical > basis for this belief. Does anybody have any suggestions? > > Do I believe that devas can sense our mind? > Assuming devas exist, I figure that they are generally wrapped up in > their own lives as we are in our lives. I figure that they spend as > much time thinking about us as we do thinking about them (i.e. almost > none). However, when somebody is sharing merit with a specific deva > (a lost relative), I see this as analgous to "calling their name" > which would make them suddenly pay attention. Once they are paying > attention to us, I believe that they can sense our state of mind. > When a Buddha exists or somebody (or even better a group of people) > are radiating metta, I figure that this is like a magnet that > attracts devas. I figure that they come to "sunbathe in the warmth of > our thoughts". > > Do I believe that devas can influence our thoughts? > When we are awake, our thoughts are conditioned by the strong impact > of nama, rupa and concepts according to natural decisive support. > When we are almost asleep, there are fewer strong conditions to > condition thoughts and this presents an opportunity for weaker > conditions to condition the arising of thoughts. I figure that on > rare occasions, a deva (assuming that they exisit), could influence > our thoughts. > > I would be interested in yours and other's opinions. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 33389 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu May 27, 2004 4:56am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep, ---------------------- R: > It seems to me that satipatthana would not be "practice" but would be the fruit of practice. > ---------------------------- You may have missed the lead-up to this conversation, Rob. We had been discussing the factors leading to enlightenment -- `enlightenment' in the sense of `direct experience of Nibbana.' The last of the four factors leading to enlightenment was `practice in accordance with the Dhamma.' As we know, the Dhamma declares all reality, apart from Nibbana, to be conditioned and to have the characteristics anicca, dukkha and anatta. The practice is to directly see the truth of this teaching. Directly seeing the truth of conditioned reality is called, satipatthana. Extensive satipatthana leads to dispassion, renunciation and relinquishment -- with regard to conditioned reality. As a result, the only unconditioned reality, Nibbana, becomes the object of consciousness. I think, at this stage, direct experience becomes what you would call the fruit of the practice. It is also called Path Consciousness or sometimes `vipassana' but not, strictly speaking, `satipatthana.' --------------------------- R: > Of course, there is an inclination in Abhidhamma to remove any definition of practice that involves "someone" "doing something" and so you can only have the spontaneous result, not the doing that leads to it. > --------------------------- `Spontaneous' is a bad choice of word here. Ultimately, as you say, there is no "someone doing something" but nothing is spontaneous; everything that arises does so from a cause. ------------------------- R: > But then why on earth call it practice? If it is not something that one does, it is not practice at all, but just a happening which one receives. That is not practice, but "grace" by another name. > ------------------------- Hold on there, Rob! "Someone doing something" is one extreme, "someone receiving grace" is the other. The Abhidhamma has no truck with either extreme. It deals with the middle (the ultimate) reality in which there are dhammas that are arising, performing their functions and falling away. -------------------------- R: > It seems to me that if "practice" is listed as the fourth factor towards enlightenment, this is because practices including meditation were in fact recommended by the Buddha. -------------------------- Practice in the form of satipatthana, yes. The other three factors are not practice but they are conditions for practice. They are, association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and wise consideration of the true Dhamma. (No mention of formal meditation.) When you rightly say, "recommended by the Buddha," that begs the questions; "Recommended to whom? Who hears? Who considers? With what beings do they associate? " In the middle ground known as ultimate reality there are no beings to give or carry out recommendations, there are only dhammas. The Middle Way is the arising of eight supramundane dhammas known as Path Factors. ----------------- R: > Do you agree that in any case "practice" as a resultant state without any intervening effort is a rather tortured definition of "practice?" > ------------------------------ Right effort is an integral part of the practice and, appropriately, it arises with it, not separately. So no, I don't agree. Far from being tortured, the explanation of momentary reality is beautiful. Kind regards, Ken H 33390 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 27, 2004 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: (was:Do or not do something) Hi Sarah, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Thx for persisting on this. I think you are persisting on this thread as well. :-) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > So are you saying that there is no contradiction between what the > > Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated in > > Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha? > .... > S: What I was saying is that you can't pick out a few words out of context > and make sweeping statements. So you are not saying that there is no contradiction between what the Buddha taught that birth is dukkha and the what is being stated in Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha. Given the quote you provided, in Sammohavinodani it is stated that birth is itself not dukkha. What is stated in Sammohavinodani that birth is itself not dukkha is in direct contradiction to what the Buddha taught that birth is dukkha. The context of the statement "birth is itself not dukkha" in Sammohavinodani does not lead to the conclusion that birth is dukkha. On the other hand, the Noble Truths of the Dukkha does not mean that birth is not dukkha. The teachings are far too subtle and > profound for that. I would say that if one do not understand that birth is dukkha, then one would not understand the Teaching correctly, let alone its subtle and profound aspects. One needs to read them carefully in context, preferably > with the help of commentaries and even sub-commentaries and wise friends. Yet the commentary Sammohavinodani contradicts what the Buddha taught that birth is dukkha, old age is dukkha, death is dukkha. Instead of helping one understand the Dhamma, the commentary Sammohavinodani misleads and misrepresents with the statements "birth is itself not dukkha," "old age is itself not dukkha," " death is itself not dukkha." > I tried to give some of this context. That's all. > .... > > Is birth dukkha or not? > .... > As you know there are different meanings of dukkha. Sankhara- dukkha is the > characteristic of all sankhara dhammas because `they are oppressed by rise > and fall'. So, even the first namas and rupas of life are inherently > dukkha. So is birth dukkha or not? > > Here, (Vism XV1, 34f) birth refers to `the first manifestation of any > aggregates.......called `birth'.....It's characteristic is the first > genesis in any [sphere] of becoming. Its function is to consign [to a > sphere of becoming]. It is manifested as an emerging here from a past > becoming; or it is manifested as the variedness of suffering. > > `But why is it suffering? Because it is the basis for many kinds of > suffering...' > > S: We cannot say that it is all these `many kinds of suffering', but > without birth, the intrinsic suffering (dukkha dukkha), suffering in > change (viparinmana dukkha) and suffering due to formations (sa'nkhaara > dukkha) and so on as manifesting in subsequent dhammas would not appear. > So it is the basis for all suffering only. > > n8 in the Vism gives the following from the Tiika (Pm): > > ` `Because it is the basis for many kinds of suffering', etc, shows that > this birth is not called suffering because of having suffering as its > individual essence - for there is no rebirth-linking associated with > painful feeling - but rather because it is the foundation for suffering' > (Pm 528).' > > Victor, your question is a good one. And it is a direct one. I can only say that I take birth here > as the `the first manifestation etc...'. I am not asking about what you take as birth. Sarah: More qus I know. For now it is the question: Is birth dukkha or not? You don't have to answer it though. I've also found > some difference in the two translations, but don't have access or > knowledge of the Pali to check further. Perhaps the translation of Sammohavinodani you provided is erroneous. Nina or others may help further > with the texts if this doesn't satisfy. > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, Victor 33391 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 27, 2004 6:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Meaning fully drawn out' vs. 'meaning to be inferred' Hi Sarah, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, (Nina, Howard, Jon in passing) > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Let me add a bit more. > > > > Jon did not answer the question at all. > <...> > > > Nina did not answer the question either. ... > <..> > > I asked the questions again, but it is ok with me if she does not > > want to respond to it directly and straightforwardly. > .... > S: Let me try taking a step backwards here .... As I just said the > teachings are very profound as I'm sure you'll agree as well. Sometimes we > may think we are answering someone's questions (I'm sure you have this > experience too - perhaps with Howard's) but the questioner doesn't think > the questions have been answered at all. Personally, I understood the > others' replies and found them helpful(no surprise there, I know). I also > tried to give my own elaborations and to check if we were on the same page > at all, I asked you a few questions, all of which you ignored. As you say, > that is ok. No one ever needs to feel obliged to respond and if they do > respond, as you did, it's one's option whether to do so `directly and > straightforwardly', indirectly, or ignoring the main content of a post as > I feel you've done with our efforts;-). Let me put it this way: Suppose I asked someone: "Have you had dinner tonight?" And he replied: "I usually have steak for dinner, with mashed potatos and green beans" and went on describing the details of what he usually has for dinner. Since his reply has nothing to do with what I asked, then I asked again "So have you had dinner tonight?" And he went on with what he likes for dinner, the best dinner he's ever had. While I understood his reply, it had nothing to do with the question "Have you had dinner tonight?" and the answer to this question is simply either an affirmative "Yes, I have had dinner tonight" or a negative "No, I haven't had dinner tonight" or if he did not know, he could reply "I am not sure"/"I don't know." > > However we respond or don't respond, all that is of any real importance > are the mind-states and good intentions. If we mind about the others in > the sense of having expectations or clinging to a certain kind of response > or wishing to have our point accepted, then it isn't helpful. I'm sure we > all do this at times. Sometimes we're misunderstood or our good intentions > are not appreciated as well. I'm sure you find this often. As Nina quoted > K.Sujin as saying `kusala can be purer when we are not engaged in thinking > about what others do or say'. I always find this a helpful reminder, not > just with troublesome family members, but in our day to day interactions > as well. > > Not meaning to change the subject or hijack another thread, but I wished > to say that I liked your quote to Hans on Kusala Sutta (Skillful), AN > 11.19: > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks..... > <....> > "Develop what is skillful, monks..... > <.....> > > A direct question for you, Victor: What does the abandoning or developing > in terms of the khandhas? I am not sure what your question mean. As I see it, the question is not formulated properly in grammar. > > Thanks for helping me to consider many points further. Hopefully I did. Metta, Victor > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== 33392 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 012 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta can still be classified depending on what it does. Some citta does the job of linking cuti citta or dying consciousness with the first bhavanga citta of next life. This citta is called patisandhi citta or linking consciousness. Bhavanga is made up of 'bhava' and 'anga'. Bhava means existence or life while anga means part. So bhavanga means 'part of life'. So bhavanga cittas are all part of a life while vithi cittas are another part of a life. Vithi means 'series' 'in serial' 'each in turn with eact place or time'. Vithi cittas are consciousness or cittas that arise in the order of exact series. Vithi cittas in our daily life can be assumed as conscious mind. All cittas in a conventionally defined life are part of that life. So all cittas are bhvanga or anga of bhava or part of life. But very initial citta is called patisandhi citta as it functions as linking. Pati means 'again'. Sandhi means 'to link'. So patisandhi means 'linking again'. In a life the first citta is called patisandhi citta or linking consciousness. The last citta in a life is also a part of bhava or life and it is bhavanga. But its function is to release the current life or to leave the current life or to end the current life. So the last citta which is also a part of life (bhavanga) is called cuti citta or dying consciousness. This is why patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta are all the same in terms of realms where they arise ( bhumi or realm or plane of existence ), in terms of origin or jati that is they all are vipaka cittas, in terms of sankhara dhamma that is those dhamma that are conditioning these three kinds of citta, in terms of sampayutta dhamma that is accompanying dhamma, and in terms of the object they take or arammana ( object ). All vithi cittas are also part of life (bhavanga ) but they always come in the exact order and always follow the rule while bhavanga cittas always come in continuous flow like flowing rivers ( sota or river ). So vithi cittas have got the name vithi citta because of their character of arising in the exact order unlike bhavanga citta which always flow without interruption. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33393 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 7:44am Subject: Starting the journey to nibbana ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma is wider, larger, and deeper than great oceans. There are various kind of dhamma and dhamma should all be well learned. Dhamma has its own attributes. It is good to start and it is good while at the middle and it is still equally good at the end. Dhamma is good at the start. When we first heard real dhamma, our old wrong views had to be left far behind as soon as real dhamma has been started to be learned. Then we continued to learn dhamma with non-withdrawing effort while at the same time we felt goodness of dhamma. Dhamma is good while at the middle of anywhere. Staying with dhamma always makes us peaceful and help us well calm and cool. While we are practising dhamma, at the time of practising, we all can feel dhamma as it is meant to be. Arahats each go to the state called nibbana. Nibbana is absolute peace as there is no fire of kilesa or defilement. Before they go into that state they all had to pass the last gate called arahatta cuti citta. All arahats passed this gate. This gate is the boundry. Arahats all go through their last series of cittas called arahatta phala citta. Arahatta phala cittas are lokuttara dhamma and they all see nibbana as their object. Dhamma ends with goodness as it starts with goodness and as long as we are staying in Dhamma we are in goodness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 33394 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 9:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 013 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta can also be classified according to what it does. There are many functions that citta can perform as its function. A life as defined by the conventional sense actually constitutes uncountable cittas. All cittas that constitutes a life are each a part of that life. Vithi cittas are also part of a life. But as vithi cittas abide the rule that they arise in the exact order, all these cittas have got the name vithi cittas. But actually they all are also part of that life. Vithi cittas come in series. They arise in series. First, the 1st citta arises. Its initiation is called upada. Upada means 'arising'. Anything that exists when they exists is called to be in the state of thi. Thiti means exist, live, stay, stand, situate. When the 1st citta arises, it exists. It arising sub-moment is called upada and its existing sub-moment is called thi. Then it vanishes. Its disappearance is called bhanga. Bhanga means 'die' 'disappear' 'destroyed' 'fade away' 'fall away' 'pass away'. Any citta just exists. Their arising is in sub-moment called upada-khana, their existing sub-moment is called thi-khana, and their moment of passing away is called bhanga-khana. These three sub-moments upada, thi, and bhanga are called cittakkhana and three sub-moments are called anukhana. Khana means 'a moment'. First the 1st citta arises. It passes away. Next citta arises. Again it passes away. Depending on the clarity of the object or arammana, the number of vithi cittas that arise as a series varies. Rupa or material lives longer than citta. Citta lives shorter than rupa or material. When the life of a rupa is compared with a citta, rupas are seen to live 17 times the citta's life. As there are 17 cittakkhana or 17 moments, there will be 51 anukhanas or 51 sub-moments. At their arising, rupa are not so clear as to give rise as an arammana or object because initiation of rupa is so weak to give rise to as an object even in the clearest object. In a rupa there is 1 anukhana or sub-moment called upada or rupa. Then it is followed by 49 anukhanas and then ends with 1 bhanga anukhana. In a given time when there is no sense impression or no object citta arises as bhavanga citta and they are flowing as a river. When bhavanga citta are arising, if an object of the clearest quality arise and hit one of 5 sense receptor or one of 5 pasada rupa, no vithi citta can arise as bhavanga cittas are there. At the 1st anukhana or upadakhana or initiation of object rupa and initiation of pasada rupa, the existing bhavanga citta passes away and rupas continue to their thikhana. Passing away bhavanga citta is called atita bhavanga citta. Atita means 'past' or 'the past'. As bhavanga cittas are very rapidly flowing like a running man, they cannot stop suddenly. If running man is ordered to stop, he will only be able to stop after a few steps. Like that, when a sense impression arises, after passing away of atita bhavanga, another 2 bhavanga cittas have to arise. The first one is engaged but cannot sense the object and it is like a vibrated water surface and called bhavanga calana citta. Calana means 'vibrating' 'shaking' 'quivering' 'quaking'. The last bhavanga citta is called bhavangupaccheda citta. Upaccheda means 'cut' 'stop'. Because after this citta, vithi citta starts to arise. As there are 17 cittakkhanas in a rupa, as 3 cittakkhana were occupied by 3 bhavanga cittas, there left 14 cittakkhanas. If the object is with the clearest quality, then all 14 cittakkhanas will be occupied by vithi cittas. There are 7 kinds of vithi citta. They are 1.avajjana citta or contemplating consciousness, 2.vinnana or sense- consciousness, 3.sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness, 4.santirana citta or investigating consciousness, 5.votthapana citta or determining consciousness 6.javana citta or impulsive consciousness, 7.tadarammana citta or retenting consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33395 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 014 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 7 vithi cittas. They are 1.avajjana citta, 2.pancavinnana citta, 3.sampaticchana citta, 4. santirana citta, 5. votthapana citta, 6. javana citta, and 7.tadarammana citta. There are 17 cittakkhanas. When an object which is a rupa arises, it stays for 17 cittakkhanas. In the 1st cittakkhana, rupa is not strong enough to give rise to as an arammana or object. Only at the 4th cittakkhana, vithi citta can arise even in the case of the clearest object. The first 3 cittakkhanas are occupied by 3 bhavanga cittas. The first vithi citta is avajjana citta. Here 'avajjana' is made up of 'arammana or aa' and 'vajjana'. Arammana means object that sense organ can perceive and giving rise to sense-consciousness. Vajjana means 'contemplating' 'considering' 'checking'. Avajjana means 'checking the arammana'. There are 2 cittas which function as avajjana citta. They are pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta. Pancadvara avajjana citta is the citta that contemplates on the arammana checking which door it comes through. Pancadvara means five doors. These five doors are 5 sense doors of eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. Manodvaravajjana citta contemplates on arammana that arises at manodvara. Manodvara means 'the door of mind'. In a life, there are many cittas starts with patisandhi citta and ends with cuti citta. In between are cittas which may be bhavanga cittas when there is no sense impression or vithi cittas when bhavanga cittas have passed away while arammana or sense impression has appeared. Normally a life starts with patisandhi and ends with cuti. In between is filled with all bhavanga cittas. But depending on kamma vipaka cittas have to arise as vithi citta. Most of the time cittas are bhavanga cittas. These are intervened with vithi citta. These vithi cittas come through a door. That door is manodvara or mind sense- door. It is the last bhavanga citta just before vithi citta arises. So bhavangupaccheda citta may be assumed as manodvara or mind sense- door. When in bhavanga cittas, there is no active thinking. There is no thought apart from components of bhavanga citta. When a dhammarammana arises or mind object arise, bhavanga cittas have to give way to vithi citta. Due to arising of dhammarammana, existing bhavanga becomes vibrated and next bhavanga which is the last bhavanga arises and passes away. Through that door, dhammarammana or mind object comes in and manodvaravajjana citta arises. Manodvaravajjana contemplates on the object and passes away. Pancadvaravajjana citta and manodvaravajjana citta do the job of avajjana or contemplating on arammana what kind they are what they are what they are like and what they mean. The function is avajjana and performing citta may be pancadvaravajjana citta if the object is pancarammana or one of 5-senses and manodvaravajjana citta if the object is mind object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 33396 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Tiika Vis 79, note 33. no 2. Tiika Vis 79, no 2. Note 33(part of this Tiika), to the Vis. text: N: remarks about Note 33: There are different opinions about sound. Some teachers think that, when originated by citta, it must always be cognizable, others believe that sound is purely mental. For us today these debates may not be very relevant, but at that time it was an issue, as we shall see in the Kathaavatthu and its Co. The Great Commentary is the authoritive Commentary that Buddhaghosa found in the Great Monastery and that he translated from Singhala into Pali. Text: ' "The sound base only": here some say, "The consciousness-born is always intimative (savi~n~nattika)". The Ancients say, "There is sound due to the intervention (vipphaara) of applied thought that does not intimate". N: Applied thought and discursive thought (vitakka and vicaara) are cetasikas that play their part in the uttering of speech sound. The word vipphaara is to be translated as vibration, irradiation or manifestation. In the Kathaavatthu Ch IX, 93, we read about a controversy concerning sound as purely mental, as irradiation or manifestation of applied thought. This idea stems from a wrong interpretation of M.S., sutta 44, 301:< Having first had initial thought and discursive thought, one subsequently utters a speech, therefore initial and discursive thought is activity of speech.> In the ³Debates Commentary² (Co to the Kathaavatthu, p. 147) we read about the refutation of this theory hold by the Pubbaseliyas. The Sakavaadin (Theravada) shows that there is auditory consciousness also and thus, the controversy about sound as purely mental is ended. Text: While depending on the word of the Great Commentary that puts it thus, "Intimatable (cognizable) through the ear by means of the sound due to applied thought's intervention", still there is also need of the arising of consciousness-originated sound without intimation (cognition) for because of the words "For the intimation (cognition) is not due to intimating speech" (?), it arises together with sound not intimatable (cognizable) through the ear. N: I would translate adhippaaya by meaning, instead of intention. The translation here is incomplete: < Because he said that there is no intimation (vi~n~natti), namely bodily and verbal intimation, it arises together with sound not audible through the ear. > Text: That being so, there would have to be a consciousness-born sound-ennead (navaka, group of nine rupas). N: This group would consist of the eight inseparable rupas and sound. Thus without the rupa that is speech intimation. Whereas the decad of speech intimation, vací-viññatti, is a group of ten rúpas. They are the eight inseparable rúpas (avinibbhoga rúpas), speech intimation (vacíviññatti) and sound (sadda rúpa). These rúpas originate from citta when one normally speaks and in that case the rúpa of speech intimation is the condition for the arising of speech sound. > Text: And that theory is rejected by the Sanghakaaras who imagine that it is self-contradictory to say that there is sound not cognizable through the ear. Others, however, do not reject the Great Commentary's statement and they comment on its intention. How? [They say that] the non-intimation (non-cognition) through the ear of the sound activated due to applied thought's intervention is stated in the Suttas with this intention, "He tells by hearing with the divine ear the subtle sound that is conascent with the intimation, originated by applied thought, and consisting in movement of the tongue and palate, and so on" (cf. A.i,171), N: See Gradual Sayings, book of the Threes Ch 60, § 5, about thought-reading. He judges by the sound he has heard some one else¹s citta. Text:..and that in the Pa.t.thaana (P.tn.1,7) the state of object condition for ear-consciousness is stated with reference to gross sound' (Pm. 460.) (end Note 33) **** Tiika text: This is born of four. As to the expression, that is all the rest, he said that the element of space is together with the (eight) inseparable rúpas. N: The eight inseparable rupas are included in each group of rupas and space surrounds each group of rupas originated from the four causes, and thus space is born from the four causes. ***** -------------------- Vis. 79, Pali: puna ekaja.m, dvija.m, tija.m, catuja.m, nakutocijaatanti imesa.m vasena pa~ncavidha.m. tattha kammajameva cittajameva ca ekaja.m naama. tesu saddhi.m hadayavatthunaa indriyaruupa.m kammajameva. vi~n~nattidvaya.m cittajameva. ya.m pana cittato ca ututo ca jaata.m, ta.m dvija.m naama, ta.m saddaayatanameva. ya.m utucittaahaarehi jaata.m, ta.m tija.m naama, ta.m pana lahutaadittayameva. ya.m catuuhipi kammaadiihi jaata.m, ta.m catuja.m naama, ta.m lakkha.naruupavajja.m avasesa.m hoti. Pali-English: Tiika 79: Ekato eva jaata.m ekaja.m. ³Born from one², means: only born from one cause. Nanu ca ekato eva paccayato paccayuppannassa uppatti natthiiti? Is it not so that there is no arising of what is conditioned by only one cause? Sacca.m natthi, ruupajanakapaccayesu ekatoti ayamettha adhippaayo. True, this does not exist, but here born of one means born by (one of) the conditions that generate materiality. Na hi ruupuppatti ruupajanakato a~n~na.m paccaya.m apekkhati. He does not consider (here) another condition for the arising of materiality apart from the condition that generates materiality. Dvijanti-aadiisupi eseva nayo. As to born of two etc. this is according to the same method. Imesanti imesa.m pabhedaana.m vasena. As to the expression, because of these (it is of five kinds), this means, according to the classification of these. Kammajamevaati kammato eva jaata.m. Cittajamevaati etthaapi eseva nayo. As to the expression kamma-born only, this means born solely from kamma. As to the expression consciousness-born only has here the same meaning. Cittato ca ututo ca jaatanti kaalena cittato, kaalena ututoti eva.m cittato ca ututo ca jaata.m da.t.thabba.m. As to the expression born from consciousness and from temperature, this should be understood as sometimes born from consciousness and sometimes born from temperature. Ta.m dvija.m dviihi jaatanti. Parato dviisupi eseva nayo. That is born of two, thus, by two factors. Elsewhere, these two factors should also be understood according to this method. Tiika text after the Note: Ta.m catuja.m. Avasesanti avinibbhogaruupena saddhi.m aakaasadhaatumaaha. This is born of four. As to the expression, that is all the rest, he said that the element of space is together with the (eight) inseparable rúpas. ***** Nina. 33397 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5 Acharn Sujin stressed again and again that we should consider whether there is dhamma now. What is dhamma? Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking of all experiences through the senses. We usually think with attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) and ignorance (moha). Sense-cognitions such as seeing and hearing only last for one moment and then defilements are bound to arise. It seems that we recognize defilements more easily than the moments of seeing and hearing. However, it is essential to understand also the moments of seeing and hearing. It is on account what we experience through the senses that many defilements arise. The Abhidhamma helps us to have more understanding of our life, to entangle different realities. We see only visible object, and shortly after seeing we define what we see, we remember the image of a person or thing. We cling to such images and we are neglectful to understand the different cittas that arise and that experience different objects. We take the person or thing we perceive for reality, for something that really exists and that is lasting. This is wrong view, and wrong view is the condition for much confusion and trouble in our life. We do not define all the time what is seen, we do not think all the time, ³this is a tree, this is a tree². There are also moments of just seeing, no thinking. We may believe that we see a particular object, like a tree, but is there not also colour at the background? We do not have to think of tree or background, but all that is visible can be seen. Seeing is not focussing on specific colours such as red or blue. When our eyes are open many different colours appear through eyesense and there is no need to enumerate or define all these colours. They just appear through the eyesense and after that we pay attention to the shape and form of things and we know that this is a person and that an animal or tree. A person is not seen. It is impossible that a person impinges on the eyesense, how could he contact eyesense? But to apply this knowledge is difficult, because we are used to believing that we see people and things all the time. Insight can only very gradually be developed. **** Nina. 33398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:41am Subject: Tiika Vis. 79, no 1 Tiika Vis. 79, no 1. Vis. 79. Again, it is of five kinds as born of one, born of two, born of three, born of four, and not born of anything. Herein, what is kamma-born only or consciousness-born only is called 'born of one'. Of these, materiality of the faculties, together with the heart-basis, is kamma-born only; the two intimations are consciousness-born only. But what is born [now] of consciousness and [now] of temperature is called 'born of two'. That is the sound base only.(33) What is born of temperature, consciousness, and nutriment [452] is called 'born of three'. But that is the three beginning with 'lightness' only. What is born from the four beginning with kamma is called 'born of four'. That is all the rest except 'matter as characteristic'. - Tiika 79 (for Pali, see no 2, below): ³Born from one², means: only born from one cause. Is it not so that there is no arising of what is conditioned by only one cause? True, this does not exist, but here born of one means born by (one of) the conditions that generate materiality. N: It means materiality originated solely by kamma or by any one of the other three factors. The way different conditions operate is very intricate. For instance, kamma produces at the time of birth three decads of rupas, and heat is among these. This heat, when the rebirth-consciousness has fallen away, produces in its turn other rupas. However, when it is said, born solely from kamma, other conditions are not taken into account. Text: He does not consider (here) another condition for the arising of materiality apart from the condition that generates materiality. N: Thus, only kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition that originates materiality is taken into account here. As to born of two etc. this is according to the same method. As to the expression, because of these (it is of five kinds), this means, according to the classification of these. As to the expression kamma-born only, this means born solely from kamma. As to the expression consciousness-born only has here the same meaning. As to the expression born from consciousness and from temperature, this should be understood as sometimes born from consciousness and sometimes born from temperature. N: Sound that originates from temperature is, for example, the sound of wind or of a waterfall. Sound that originates from consciousness is speech sound. We read in the ³Manual of Abhidhamma² (Abhidhammattha Sangaha), in the notes of Ven Narada: Text: That is born of two, thus, by two factors. Elsewhere, these two factors should also be understood according to this method. N: That is sound only. ***** Nina. 33399 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu May 27, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi Sarah, Thank you for trying to retrieve the discussion under this thread. Let me first quote the following from Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html "And what is ignorance? Not knowing stress, not knowing the origination of stress, not knowing the cessation of stress, not knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called ignorance." The cessation of ignorance means knowing the dukkha, knowing the origination of the dukkha, knowing the cessation of the dukkha, knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of the dukkha. In short, it means knowing the Four Noble Truths. What does it mean by knowing the cessation of the dukkha? Let me use a simile: Suppose one is wandering in the desert, suffering from heat and thirst. However, he knows that there is an oasis with a cool pool where he can drink from the pool and relieve the thirst. Although he's not been to the oasis before, he knows the way to get there. So traveling by days and nights, he eventually makes it to the oasis, rests under the palm trees, drinks from the pool and relieves the thirst. Knowing the cessation of the dukkha is like knowing there is an oasis with a cool pool where he can rest and drink from the pool and relieve the thirst. Knowing the way to the oasis is like knowing the way of practice leading to the cessation of the dukkha. Directly experiencing the cessation of the dukkha is like actually resting under the palm trees, drinking from the cool pool, and relieving the thirst. Comments are welcome. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahdhhk" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > Apologies for putting my comments to you under the wrong > subject thread - I sometimes do this when I'm rushing. I've tried > to retrieve the discussion so you can respond as requested > (off-list). Metta, Sarah > .... > S: > *[Btw, Victor, in your D.O. thread with Howard & RobM (post > 33211), I think we can rightly say that until the attainment of > arahantship, `there is always ignorance'. The anusaya (latent > tendency)of ignorance lies `dormant' in each citta and is > accumulated from citta to citta, even when it doesn't manifest. I > also agreed with your last comments about the 8fold > path factors being `fabrications' `leading to the cessation of > craving,thus leading to the cessation of all fabrications'.] > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Howard and all, > > > > First of all, I would like to correct myself regarding what I said: > > > > 'As long as one has not realized the cessation of the dukkha, > > attained the arahantship, there is always ignorance, until > > > > "With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He > > discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task > > done. There is nothing further for this world.'"' > > > > I want to say that as long as one has not known the Four Noble > > Truths, there is always ignorance. In other words, ignorance is > not > > knowing the Four Noble Truths. [snip]